<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">SignWriting List<div>April 27, 2021</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you, Jonathan, for discussing writing from the Side View instead of the Top View. Was the Deaf writer you mentioned who wrote some signs from the Side View - was he or she from Honduras? Is there anyone else who writes some signs from the Side View? Can someone post an example?<br><br><div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Apr 27, 2021, at 8:50 PM, Jonathan Duncan <00000002a18e4451-dmarc-request@listserv.valenciacollege.edu> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
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<p>Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Val and everyone -</p>
<p>It's interesting to see so many ways to do things and the
combination of viewpoints that is different than the usual way of
reading it.</p>
<p>I personally prefer the sizes. As it feels clear, and the way I
would write it on paper if I didn't have a movement, or maybe even
if I did, just to emphasize the depth.</p>
<p>I really like the symbol sizes, and I've included as part of my
SignWriting programs which was in 2005, and has been able to
write it to FSW since Steve and I collaborated on the styling. If
my memory serves me right, it was concluded that symbol size
wasn't necessary to write everyday signwriting. And it was also
much harder to size the PNGs nicely than it is to size the SVGs
and Fonts we have today. <br>
</p>
<p>I agree with you Steve, that it's good to have a separation
between text and styling. And if we change all the symbols by the
same % then that is more of a styling than anything else, as if
they are all a different size, or if the size isn't changed, it
all means the same. However I do think that we should support
different symbols sizes within a sign and for the meaning to
depend on the size of the symbols to be able to write what Adam is
signing or more exactly, similar examples which do not have
movement. Not that we would use different sizes in the all the
signs but that some we can change their size to denote depth when
we want to. And it would be part of the sign and not the styling
because removing the size would change the meaning of those
signs. My programs have a separate data structure with can record
the size of each individual symbol, which was always lost going to
FSW until we got the styling. But is still lost on some of the
other software which doesn't always permit importing some of the
styling like the older SignMaker 2015.</p>
<p>Of course, for the current common encodings like FSW, etc to
record which symbols are not at their default size within the sign
part instead of the styling, would require extending the current
specifications. Or we could agree on a basic JSON representation
which is a much more flexible data structure and is the common way
of sharing and storing data in almost every programming language
and in many modern databases.</p>
<p>I knew a deaf who wrote his notes, either expressive viewpoint
from the back or expressive from the side. I never saw him draw
any from the top. With just those two views, you could write
everything without even having different types of arrows. But it
requires, stating in each sign which viewpoint is drawn. He would
change from one to the other with a quick body manikin in each
sign. We see other signers more often from the side than from the
top, so I think it's an easier transition to write oneself from
the side than from the top. I'm not advocating we all write like
he did, but I believe that in the case that when depth isn't clear
with the expressive view, like in this special case Adam is
mentioning, I believe it would prefer to read it from the side
view than from the expressive back view.</p>
<p>When we can easily write everything we sign the way we normally
sign and read it back and sign it the same again, and not feeling
that we should sign something just a bit differently so that we
can write it without too much trouble, then that would be a
perfect writing system. And I believe that that has been and
should be the goal of great sign writing systems like
SignWriting. If we can write things simply and intuitively with
different size symbols instead of having to switch views to write
some signs, then I believe it is improving the ease of use and the
ease of adoption of SignWriting.</p>
<p>But in the case of writing with software that doesn't do symbol
by symbol sizes, I prefer the side view.<br>
</p>
<p>Thanks for letting me share my 2cents</p>
<p>Jonathan<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/22/2021 11:13 AM, Valerie Sutton
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG">
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<div dir="auto" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">SignWrting List
<div class="">April 22, 2021</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan
and everyone -</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The
Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the
sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front
View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It
sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be
working for readers.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">And looking at the above diagram I can see other
ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For
me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if
you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work
very well.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the
writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the
depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented
“far away”.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><div><part1.708400B8.png></div></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br>
<div class="">I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great
for individual documents or signs that can be captured in
graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual
symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost
if it is just plain text.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the
smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for
some demonstrations.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
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