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<p>Hi Val, <br>
</p>
<p> Yes, that Deaf was from Honduras. <br>
</p>
<p>Jonathan<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/27/2021 11:33 PM, Valerie Sutton
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:83B3D245-D391-400A-94FD-26C0E381592F@signwriting.org">
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SignWriting List
<div>April 27, 2021</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you, Jonathan, for discussing writing from the Side
View instead of the Top View. Was the Deaf writer you mentioned
who wrote some signs from the Side View - was he or she from
Honduras? Is there anyone else who writes some signs from the
Side View? Can someone post an example?<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Apr 27, 2021, at 8:50 PM, Jonathan
Duncan
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:00000002a18e4451-dmarc-request@listserv.valenciacollege.edu"><00000002a18e4451-dmarc-request@listserv.valenciacollege.edu></a>
wrote:<br>
<br>
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<p>Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Val and everyone
-</p>
<p>It's interesting to see so many ways to do things and the
combination of viewpoints that is different than the usual
way of reading it.</p>
<p>I personally prefer the sizes. As it feels clear, and
the way I would write it on paper if I didn't have a
movement, or maybe even if I did, just to emphasize the
depth.</p>
<p>I really like the symbol sizes, and I've included as part
of my SignWriting programs which was in 2005, and has
been able to write it to FSW since Steve and I
collaborated on the styling. If my memory serves me right,
it was concluded that symbol size wasn't necessary to
write everyday signwriting. And it was also much harder
to size the PNGs nicely than it is to size the SVGs and
Fonts we have today. <br>
</p>
<p>I agree with you Steve, that it's good to have a
separation between text and styling. And if we change all
the symbols by the same % then that is more of a styling
than anything else, as if they are all a different size,
or if the size isn't changed, it all means the same.
However I do think that we should support different
symbols sizes within a sign and for the meaning to depend
on the size of the symbols to be able to write what Adam
is signing or more exactly, similar examples which do not
have movement. Not that we would use different sizes in
the all the signs but that some we can change their size
to denote depth when we want to. And it would be part of
the sign and not the styling because removing the size
would change the meaning of those signs. My programs have
a separate data structure with can record the size of each
individual symbol, which was always lost going to FSW
until we got the styling. But is still lost on some of
the other software which doesn't always permit importing
some of the styling like the older SignMaker 2015.</p>
<p>Of course, for the current common encodings like FSW, etc
to record which symbols are not at their default size
within the sign part instead of the styling, would require
extending the current specifications. Or we could agree
on a basic JSON representation which is a much more
flexible data structure and is the common way of sharing
and storing data in almost every programming language and
in many modern databases.</p>
<p>I knew a deaf who wrote his notes, either expressive
viewpoint from the back or expressive from the side. I
never saw him draw any from the top. With just those two
views, you could write everything without even having
different types of arrows. But it requires, stating in
each sign which viewpoint is drawn. He would change from
one to the other with a quick body manikin in each sign.
We see other signers more often from the side than from
the top, so I think it's an easier transition to write
oneself from the side than from the top. I'm not
advocating we all write like he did, but I believe that in
the case that when depth isn't clear with the expressive
view, like in this special case Adam is mentioning, I
believe it would prefer to read it from the side view than
from the expressive back view.</p>
<p>When we can easily write everything we sign the way we
normally sign and read it back and sign it the same again,
and not feeling that we should sign something just a bit
differently so that we can write it without too much
trouble, then that would be a perfect writing system. And
I believe that that has been and should be the goal of
great sign writing systems like SignWriting. If we can
write things simply and intuitively with different size
symbols instead of having to switch views to write some
signs, then I believe it is improving the ease of use and
the ease of adoption of SignWriting.</p>
<p>But in the case of writing with software that doesn't do
symbol by symbol sizes, I prefer the side view.<br>
</p>
<p>Thanks for letting me share my 2cents</p>
<p>Jonathan<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/22/2021 11:13 AM, Valerie
Sutton wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG">
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charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto" style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break:
after-white-space;" class="">SignWrting List
<div class="">April 22, 2021</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve,
Jonathan and everyone -</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front
View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but
the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can
be written in the Front View, placed either near or far
from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this
combination of viewpoints seems to be working for
readers.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">And looking at the above diagram I can see
other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of
choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth
information, but if you do not want to use an arrow,
then the old “sizes” work very well.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Originally SignWriting was designed to
keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of
symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”.
Smaller symbols represented “far away”.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div><part1.708400B8.png></div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br>
<div class="">I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is
great for individual documents or signs that can be
captured in graphics so the information is not lost,
but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small”
vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can
access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I
plan to use it for some demonstrations.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
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