<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">If users were to add
new symbols to their own copy of SooSL, I would be concerned
that the numbers they choose might conflict with later
"official" uses of those numbers by the general SW community.</font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">What I think we could
do to support this concern is to declare a range of numbers that
users can use as a "private use area". Any use of numbers in
this area would be understood as being free to use by any
person, but would not be meaningful unless accompanied by the
files that illustrate the handshape.</font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Anyway, it does appear
feasible; the main question at this point is whether there are
SooSL users who currently have a need for this feature. If so,
please let us know.</font><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--Albert
Albert Bickford, SIL
Linguistic Services Coordinator, Global Sign Languages Team
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:linguistic_services_gslt@sil.org">linguistic_services_gslt@sil.org</a>
(Please use this address for correspondence about sign languages)
16091 N. Vernon Dr., Tucson AZ 85739
520-825-1229
</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2021/10/29 10:08, Timothy Grove
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:d4d8ba1f-8f22-0a0f-8959-ded903196a6f@sil.org">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/26/2021 11:10 PM, K Cumberbatch
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAM6CZYbRt9P+MOmbPwnyYOLwsS_t-W2HG-GyxX_q5YOYBKPVgg@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hi everyone,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for the suggestions and feedback. I'll find out if
what Adam and Sutthikuhn suggested can be used in SooSL.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes, I think an add-on is a great approach for new
handshapes. Tim, is it possible for a SignWriting add-on to
work with SooSL or for me to add these handshapes myself?<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>If the handshape you want could be composed from multiple
handshapes already in the ISWA 2010, then you "could" index your
sign with all of these. <br>
That doesn't feel "quite" right as it would suggest that your
sign actually uses multiple handshapes, but anyone searching
using any or all of the individual handshapes would find your
sign. <br>
Does that make any sense?<br>
</p>
<p>I'm not sure how an add-on approach would work in SooSL, but if
you looked inside a SooSL installation, you might see how we use
the handshapes.<br>
Inside the program folder there is a sub-folder called
"components", and "handshape" is a sub-folder under this. <br>
The sub-folders under the handshape folder represent the
SymbolGroups of the ISWA 2010 (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.signbank.org/iswa/cat_1.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.signbank.org/iswa/cat_1.html</a>).<br>
The sub-folders under these contain the files associated with
each symbol.<br>
</p>
<p><img src="cid:part1.BXwhOftC.1640t25W@sil.org" alt="" class=""></p>
<p>The files are from resources that I downloaded from here: <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.movementwriting.org/symbolbank/index.html#ISWA2010"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.movementwriting.org/symbolbank/index.html#ISWA2010</a><br>
The file with '_folder' in its name is only included where that
symbol represents the SymbolGroup.<br>
The files with 'a', 'b', and 'c' were extracted from the
animated gifs for the symbol, which I use for those larger
images you see when you click on the light bulb icon in SooSL.<br>
</p>
<p><img src="cid:part2.H5i00iH0.MRCe8zot@sil.org" alt="" class=""
width="334" height="224"><br>
(I've now combined these into one single file, instead of three
for the next version.)<br>
(There is also a description, in this case "Index Ring Finger",
which is stored elsewhere in the source code.)</p>
<p>So, the short answer to your question, Keren, is "Yes, you
could add new handshapes to SooSL!" <br>
You would need to create files for it as above; name them with
an appropriate symbol code; create a folder for them under an
appropriate SymbolGroup folder and drop them in!</p>
<p>A couple of caveats:<br>
1) If you wanted to share your dictionary with someone else
using another copy of SooSL, you would also need to share the
new set of components with them.<br>
2) New versions of SooSL would overwrite the altered component
folder.<br>
</p>
<p>Maybe if this is an idea that we take forward in development, I
could find a way to keep new handshapes which are not part of
SooSL's core with the dictionary itself? A thought...</p>
<p>I hope that this is some help to you, Keren. I'm sure we will
discuss this more!<br>
</p>
<p>For the SignWriting folks who may be reading this, I use the
names of the symbols, such as "Index Ring Finger", as toolTips
in SooSL. Is there anywhere a list of these names translated
into other language?<br>
I've been meaning to ask that question for a long time; thank
you!</p>
<p>Best regards,<br>
Tim<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAM6CZYbRt9P+MOmbPwnyYOLwsS_t-W2HG-GyxX_q5YOYBKPVgg@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Adam, the research is detailed and none of the existing
handshapes are close enough. I've used 'close enough' in
other instances.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes, the second handshape is the R hand on a hinge. I
have it in my data with both the thumb extended at the side
and on the ring and baby fingers. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Keren.<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 4:08
PM SW-L automatic digest system <<a
href="mailto:LISTSERV@listserv.valenciacollege.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">LISTSERV@listserv.valenciacollege.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">There are 4 messages
totaling 17206 lines in this issue.<br>
<br>
Topics in this special issue:<br>
<br>
1. Additional Handshapes (4)<br>
<br>
________________________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION<br>
<br>
Valerie Sutton<br>
SignWriting List moderator<br>
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<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 10:12:24 -0700<br>
From: Valerie Sutton <<a
href="mailto:sutton@SIGNWRITING.ORG" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sutton@SIGNWRITING.ORG</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Additional Handshapes<br>
<br>
SignWriting List<br>
October 26, 2021<br>
<br>
Hello SW List members -<br>
I received this message today (see below).<br>
<br>
Anyone who can help…. can you help us find the closest
handshapes we already have, that could be used to create
signs with these handshapes? If we can find ones that are
already in the ISWA 2010 that are close, then maybe we can
teach how to construct what is needed? I appreciate your
help everyone -<br>
<br>
Val ;-)<br>
<br>
-------------<br>
<br>
> On Oct 26, 2021, at 9:58 AM, K Cumberbatch <<a
href="mailto:mehrarbeite@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">mehrarbeite@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear Ms Sutton,<br>
<br>
I am using SooSL for my research project and I noticed there
are some handshapes that are not included. I contacted Tim
Grove. He said that the handshapes are from SignWriting and
I can contact SignWriting directly about adding handshapes.
I would like to know if new handshapes will be added in the
near future and if it is possible to add the 2 handshapes in
the attached pictures so that they can be included in SooSL.
The second one which may be difficult to identify is an
index middle cross hinge, thumb side.<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Keren Cumberbatch.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
——————<br>
<br>
> On Oct 26, 2021, at 9:58 AM, K Cumberbatch <<a
href="mailto:mehrarbeite@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">mehrarbeite@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Hello Valerie,<br>
> <br>
> Yes, reposting it on the list is fine.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Regards,<br>
> Keren.<br>
<br>
________________________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION<br>
<br>
Valerie Sutton<br>
SignWriting List moderator<br>
<a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sutton@signwriting.org</a><br>
<br>
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SignWriting List Archives & Home Page<br>
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<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:49:42 +0700<br>
From: Sutthikhun Phaengphongsai <<a
href="mailto:suttikunep@GMAIL.COM" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">suttikunep@GMAIL.COM</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Additional Handshapes<br>
<br>
Hi Valerie and SWList members,<br>
<br>
I suppose that the signs for the two handshapes you've
mentioned could be<br>
written as follows:<br>
<br>
[image: sign (2).png]<br>
<br>
[image: sign (14).png]<br>
Sutthikhun<br>
<br>
On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 00:13, Valerie Sutton <<a
href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sutton@signwriting.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> SignWriting List<br>
> October 26, 2021<br>
><br>
> Hello SW List members -<br>
> I received this message today (see below).<br>
><br>
> Anyone who can help…. can you help us find the closest
handshapes we<br>
> already have, that could be used to create signs with
these handshapes? If<br>
> we can find ones that are already in the ISWA 2010 that
are close, then<br>
> maybe we can teach how to construct what is needed? I
appreciate your help<br>
> everyone -<br>
><br>
> Val ;-)<br>
><br>
> -------------<br>
><br>
> On Oct 26, 2021, at 9:58 AM, K Cumberbatch <<a
href="mailto:mehrarbeite@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">mehrarbeite@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> Dear Ms Sutton,<br>
><br>
> I am using SooSL for my research project and I noticed
there are<br>
> some handshapes that are not included. I contacted Tim
Grove. He said that<br>
> the handshapes are from SignWriting and I can contact
SignWriting directly<br>
> about adding handshapes. I would like to know if new
handshapes will be<br>
> added in the near future and if it is possible to add
the 2 handshapes in<br>
> the attached pictures so that they can be included in
SooSL. The second one<br>
> which may be difficult to identify is an index middle
cross hinge, thumb<br>
> side.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
> Keren Cumberbatch.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> ——————<br>
><br>
> On Oct 26, 2021, at 9:58 AM, K Cumberbatch <<a
href="mailto:mehrarbeite@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">mehrarbeite@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hello Valerie,<br>
><br>
> Yes, reposting it on the list is fine.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
> Keren.<br>
><br>
> ________________________________________________<br>
><br>
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION<br>
><br>
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator <a
href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sutton@signwriting.org</a><br>
><br>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: <a
href="mailto:sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu</a><br>
><br>
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page<br>
> <a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist</a><br>
><br>
> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages<br>
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1</a><br>
><br>
<br>
________________________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION<br>
<br>
Valerie Sutton<br>
SignWriting List moderator<br>
<a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sutton@signwriting.org</a><br>
<br>
Post Messages to the SignWriting List:<br>
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SignWriting List Archives & Home Page<br>
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<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 10:59:33 -0700<br>
From: Adam Frost <<a
href="mailto:icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Additional Handshapes<br>
<br>
The first one is actually what I was thinking. This is a
construction of two symbols, correct? BaseSymbol 1 &
BaseSymbol 258?<br>
<br>
+ <br>
<br>
The second one actually has the index and middle fingers
crossing in addition to what your handshape has. I found
that this handshape is the closest, but the thumb is not
extended to the side.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If you wanted to have the thumb to the side, the handshape
would have to be constructed completely. I am not sure what
would constitute as close enough for this person’s purposes
because it seems they are doing some detailed research. At
least that is my guess.<br>
<br>
<br>
Adam<br>
<br>
> On Oct 26, 2021, at 10:49 AM, Sutthikhun Phaengphongsai
<<a href="mailto:suttikunep@GMAIL.COM" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">suttikunep@GMAIL.COM</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Hi Valerie and SWList members,<br>
> <br>
> I suppose that the signs for the two handshapes you've
mentioned could be written as follows: <br>
> <br>
> <sign (2).png><br>
> <br>
> <sign (14).png><br>
> Sutthikhun<br>
> <br>
> On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 00:13, Valerie Sutton <<a
href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sutton@signwriting.org</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sutton@signwriting.org</a>>>
wrote:<br>
> SignWriting List<br>
> October 26, 2021<br>
> <br>
> Hello SW List members -<br>
> I received this message today (see below).<br>
> <br>
> Anyone who can help…. can you help us find the closest
handshapes we already have, that could be used to create
signs with these handshapes? If we can find ones that are
already in the ISWA 2010 that are close, then maybe we can
teach how to construct what is needed? I appreciate your
help everyone -<br>
> <br>
> Val ;-)<br>
> <br>
> -------------<br>
> <br>
>> On Oct 26, 2021, at 9:58 AM, K Cumberbatch <<a
href="mailto:mehrarbeite@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">mehrarbeite@gmail.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:mehrarbeite@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">mehrarbeite@gmail.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Dear Ms Sutton,<br>
> <br>
> I am using SooSL for my research project and I noticed
there are some handshapes that are not included. I contacted
Tim Grove. He said that the handshapes are from SignWriting
and I can contact SignWriting directly about adding
handshapes. I would like to know if new handshapes will be
added in the near future and if it is possible to add the 2
handshapes in the attached pictures so that they can be
included in SooSL. The second one which may be difficult to
identify is an index middle cross hinge, thumb side.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Regards,<br>
> Keren Cumberbatch.<br>
> <br>
> <Screenshot 2021-04-10 at 12.29.59
AM.png><Screenshot 2021-10-25 at 8.43.42 PM.png><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ——————<br>
> <br>
>> On Oct 26, 2021, at 9:58 AM, K Cumberbatch <<a
href="mailto:mehrarbeite@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">mehrarbeite@gmail.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:mehrarbeite@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">mehrarbeite@gmail.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
>> <br>
>> Hello Valerie,<br>
>> <br>
>> Yes, reposting it on the list is fine.<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> Regards,<br>
>> Keren.<br>
> ________________________________________________<br>
> <br>
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION<br>
> <br>
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator <a
href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sutton@signwriting.org</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sutton@signwriting.org</a>><br>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: <a
href="mailto:sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu</a>
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href="mailto:sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu</a>><br>
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page <a
href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist</a>
<<a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist</a>><br>
> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1</a>>________________________________________________<br>
> <br>
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION<br>
> <br>
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator <a
href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sutton@signwriting.org</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org"
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> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: <a
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SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION<br>
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Valerie Sutton<br>
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:07:42 -0700<br>
From: Valerie Sutton <<a
href="mailto:sutton@SIGNWRITING.ORG" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sutton@SIGNWRITING.ORG</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Additional Handshapes<br>
<br>
SignWriting List<br>
October 28, 2021<br>
<br>
First, I want to welcome a new member to our List, Keren
Cumberbatch. Thank you, Keren, for the questions about
constructing handshapes.<br>
<br>
Second, many thanks to Adam and Sutthikhun (Ae), for your
help. I do so appreciate it.<br>
<br>
Before you joined, Keren, Adam and Sutthikhun (Ae) had
already been discussing your handshapes in question:<br>
<br>
.<br>
<br>
I believe we all agree on the first one:<br>
<br>
It is the thumb inside a fist, with the index finger
extended. It would be two handshapes combined:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
and of course there are different palm facings. This
handshape needs to be constructed because it is not a part
of the official ISWA 2010 symbolset. But all the pieces are
there for you. Do you know how to access and find those
shapes in SignPuddle Online? I do not know how SooSL works
with handshapes.<br>
<br>
The second handshape is hard to see in the photo, but Adam
and Sutthikhun made different suggestions - You can find
their earlier messages in the SW List Archives for today:<br>
<br>
Archive 4<br>
<a href="https://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a><br>
<br>
From your description, “ The second one which may be
difficult to identify is an index middle cross hinge, thumb
side”, and looking at the suggestions, it looks like to me
that it is an R hand (crossed fingers) angled forward, like
the Letter N in ASL, but the thumb goes to the side, like
this:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
As you can see, this is also a constructed handshape and
even if you want to write it differently than I have posted
above, we do not have it in the ISWA 2010 either - so both
handshapes have to be constructed.<br>
<br>
So what to do about needing more handshapes in the ISWA? It
would be so much chaos for the software developers who have
already built their software on the current symbolset to
change the current symbolset now - the best thing we could
try, is for brave software developers to develop an “add-on”
program that could somehow be accessed on the side, while
still keeping the current software in tact.<br>
<br>
How do other people feel about this? Rubens Almeida and
others have also requested more handshapes. Is there anyone
who can help this issue?<br>
<br>
Val ;-)<br>
<br>
<br>
-----------------<br>
<br>
> On Oct 25, 2021, at 6:46 PM, K Cumberbatch <<a
href="mailto:mehrarbeite@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">mehrarbeite@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Dear Ms Sutton,<br>
> <br>
> I am using SooSL for my research project and I noticed
there are some handshapes that are not included. I contacted
Tim Grove. He said that the handshapes are from SignWriting
and I can contact SignWriting directly about adding
handshapes. I would like to know if new handshapes will be
added in the near future and if it is possible to add the 2
handshapes in the attached pictures so that they can be
included in SooSL. The second one which may be difficult to
identify is an index middle cross hinge, thumb side.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Regards,<br>
> Keren Cumberbatch.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION<br>
<br>
Valerie Sutton<br>
SignWriting List moderator<br>
<a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org" target="_blank"
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
End of SW-L Digest - 25 Oct 2021 to 26 Oct 2021 - Special
issue (#2021-136)<br>
***************************************************************************<br>
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SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
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