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    <p>Hello List,</p>
    <p>Yes this writing the arm rotation is implied by beginning and
      ending symbols, but not directly annotated in the sign.  The arm
      in the start position the back of the arm is up, and in the ending
      position the bottom of the arm is up.  From my point of view,
      there was an arm rotation but it is not needed for everyday
      writing as the hand symbols force you to do it anyways.</p>
    <p>Jonathan<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/6/2022 7:28 AM, Carlos Cristian
      Libras wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAC7Lbd=yB=Sfd5A+oPaeaVW=y9NEizugDWUeddph-gfsG8y6dg@mail.gmail.com">
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        <div>Hello List,<br>
          The moment I watched the video I understood that sign language
          readers can easily see the written form and complete the sign.
          Like a spelling agreement. As much as it is not 100%
          represented in writing. As many signs in Brazil are made like
          this (we write in a way that Brazilian readers can read easily
          but that a foreigner may have another interpretation of the
          movement).<br>
          <br>
          After thinking about it, I reflected that if I were to
          describe the movement exactly I would separate the signal in 2
          beats, writing the beginning of the movement and the end. But
          before I answered that, I saw the rest of the discussion and
          realized that Valerie Sutton had already shown exactly the
          format I thought:<br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
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        <img src="cid:part1.kY6D9ZOG.iIkvRzv3@gmail.com" alt="image.png"
          class="" width="150" height="142"><br>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I don't know of any current symbols that would simplify
          this. But I'm looking forward to seeing Adam's response.
          Anyway, I believe that the two solutions above already solve
          the problem, I see no reason to worry.<br>
          I advise you to write long texts that use this sign, to see
          how it will actually be in practice. Because it is very
          different to write a sign for a dictionary, putting all the
          details than writing a personal note text in which many
          details are obsolete, because what matters most is the
          practicality and usefulness of writing.<br>
          <br>
          This is just an opinion.<br>
        </div>
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      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Feb 6, 2022 at 3:27 AM
          Adam Frost <<a href="mailto:icemandeaf@gmail.com"
            moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">icemandeaf@gmail.com</a>>
          wrote:<br>
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          0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">I think the discussion
            came about because there is a desire to have a movement
            symbol that has arm rotation and arm traveling. Now that I
            think of it, there are some symbols that do just that. I’ll
            have to take a look into that tomorrow morning. :-)
            <div><br>
              <div>
                <span><img
                    id="gmail-m_486863985837522633326647A6D-1003-4639-8996-691114511125"
                    src="cid:part2.bi4NU2XO.3b9oZm2t@gmail.com" class=""></span><br
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
                <span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Adam</span>
              </div>
              <div><br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>On Feb 5, 2022, at 9:42 PM, Valerie Sutton <<a
                      href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                      class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sutton@signwriting.org</a>>
                    wrote:</div>
                  <br>
                  <div>
                    <div>SignWriting list<br>
                      February 5, 2022<br>
                      <br>
                      And to answer your question, when we really are
                      writing rotation symbols (movements that do not
                      travel but just change palm facing), we do not
                      have a diagonal plane version of the rotation
                      symbols. There are only two planes to choose from
                      for Rotation Symbols. The forearm is either
                      parallel to the floor or parallel to the Wall - I
                      have never seen yet a sign that is misunderstood
                      because a diagonal forearm would change the
                      meaning of the sign.<br>
                      <br>
                      In this case this sign means “homogeneous" in
                      English (in German “homogen”) and homogeneous in
                      English means like a family or group that blends
                      well together. The movements look a little like
                      the sign for FAMILY in ASL, and although I know
                      the meanings may be different, I think the curved
                      traveling movement fits with the meaning of the
                      sign, at least that is the way it feels to me.<br>
                      <br>
                      There are always questions with Rotation Symbols
                      and how to write them so feel free to keep asking
                      questions - <br>
                      <br>
                      Thanks so much for sharing.<br>
                      <br>
                      Val ;-)<br>
                      <br>
                      --------------<br>
                      <br>
                      <blockquote type="cite">On Feb 5, 2022, at 9:27
                        PM, Valerie Sutton <<a
                          href="mailto:sutton@SIGNWRITING.ORG"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sutton@SIGNWRITING.ORG</a>>
                        wrote:<br>
                        <br>
                        SignWriting List<br>
                        February 5, 2022<br>
                        <br>
                        Hello SignWriting List, Uta and Adam,<br>
                        <br>
                        Regarding this video:<br>
                        <a
                          href="https://sign2mint.de/entry/homogen/5750242766511595:730"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://sign2mint.de/entry/homogen/5750242766511595:730</a><br>
                        <br>
                        I agree with you, Adam, that this is a general
                        arm movement because the arm movement TRAVELS.
                        The hands travel from shoulder level to “in
                        front of the chest and lower” in the second
                        position. I would write it this way:<br>
                        <br>
                      </blockquote>
                      <br>
                      ________________________________________________<br>
                      <br>
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                      SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION<br>
                      <br>
                      Valerie Sutton<br>
                      SignWriting List moderator<br>
                      <a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sutton@signwriting.org</a><br>
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                        id="gmail-m_4868639858375226333cid:9E31E02B-1D6B-4C11-8712-AB1B17A46F13"><DGS_homogen1.png></span>
                      <blockquote type="cite"><br>
                        <br>
                        <br>
                        Movements that travel are curves that truly move
                        the hands from one space to another.<br>
                        <br>
                        Rotation symbols are movements that do NOT
                        travel. The arm stays in one place while the arm
                        twists from one palm facing to another, while
                        staying in place.<br>
                        <br>
                        So if I were reading the SignWriting with the
                        rotation symbol in this diagram, without seeing
                        the video, I would think that the plam facing
                        changes at shoulder level. I would not know that
                        it traveled down lower, since it is a Rotation
                        Symbol (which means no traveling).<br>
                        <br>
                        Sometimes small rotation symbols are placed on
                        top of traveling arrows - they are combined,
                        because the writer doesn’t want to write the
                        second position but I prefer to write the second
                        position - at least for those who do not know
                        the sign.<br>
                        <br>
                      </blockquote>
                      <br>
                      ________________________________________________<br>
                      <br>
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                      SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION<br>
                      <br>
                      Valerie Sutton<br>
                      SignWriting List moderator<br>
                      <a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
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                      <blockquote type="cite"><br>
                        ________________________________________________<br>
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                      <br>
                      ________________________________________________<br>
                      <br>
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                      <br>
                      Valerie Sutton<br>
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          ________________________________________________
          <p>
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              moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sutton@signwriting.org</a>
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      ________________________________________________
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          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sutton@signwriting.org</a>
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