<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Your writing has two right hands. I suspect that the thumb would be visible if this were fixed. ;-)<div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<span><img apple-inline="yes" id="5B12839D-C3D2-4EC8-96F9-E577AE4D918B" src="cid:BC7FF2BE-B327-4618-B076-E92B91C176BA@home" class=""></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Adam</span>
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On May 5, 2022, at 4:27 AM, Uta Meißner <<a href="mailto:uta.hielscher@GMAIL.COM" class="">uta.hielscher@GMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Hi Valerie,<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I like the idea of having the hands that are touching as close as possible, next to each other or even on top of each other, so that it is easier to see where they are touching. <br class="">Only with some hand shapes it can come to problems with the recognition of the hand shape if the two hands overlap. <br class=""><br class="">We in the team ourselves disagree to what degree the symbols may overlap. <br class=""><br class="">Example: <br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://test.sign2mint.de/entry/Makrophage/14548230564932464:904" class="">https://test.sign2mint.de/entry/Makrophage/14548230564932464:904</a><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The current example does not show well where the hands touch. I have to agree with you there. The hand position of the left hand is not correct, it should be the same as the right hand.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span id="cid:ii_l2sx0bx82"><image.png></span><br class=""></div><div class="">Would you like the new proposal better? <br class=""></div><div class="">You can not see the thumbs here, although they are not important here. <br class="">And I just noticed that it is better when the arrows meet exactly?<br class=""></div><div class=""><span id="cid:ii_l2sx5e463"><image.png></span><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I am curious about your suggestions for improvement :)<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I have read the book from Stefan in its entirety. :) Still I have 1000 questions :D</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Greetings Uta</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 9:31 AM Valerie Sutton <<a href="mailto:0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request@listserv.valenciacollege.edu" class="">0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request@listserv.valenciacollege.edu</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">SignWriting List<div class="">May 5, 2022</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Hello everyone and Uta -</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The Lessons in SignWriting Textbook is a collection of different lessons over the years, so in the back the SignSpelling Guidelines on pages 194-203 are very important. But they are thrown in at the back and most people do not even realize they are there. So you can put the blame on me that the book is not better planned. I hope to write a better book someday ;-)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">And this information is not in SignPuddle, but is instead under SignWriting Lessons, where you can download many books teaching SignWriting, written by several authors, in several languages:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">SignWriting Books</div><div class=""><a href="https://www.signwriting.org/lessons/books" target="_blank" class="">https://www.signwriting.org/lessons/books</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I wonder Uta, have you read Stefan Woehrmann’s textbook on SignWriting? Handbuch zur Gebaerdenschrift? It is an excellent book and it is in German and DGS.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://gebaerden.de/de/151588-Inhaltsangabe#handg" target="_blank" class="">https://gebaerden.de/de/151588-Inhaltsangabe#handg</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">And yes, there are simple rules related to when to write the beginning or ending handshape, if you want to take one away.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The rule is on page 194 of the Lessons in SignWriting Textbook. Here is the excerpt from those pages:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">page 194 and 195</div><div class="">Writing Signs<br class="">SignSpelling Guideline 1</div><div class="">First, write the Position of Contact<br class=""> <br class="">When starting to write a sign, ask yourself: “Is there a Position of Contact in this sign?”. Are the hands contacting each other? Are the hands contacting the Face or Body? Write that Position of Contact first, which becomes the “Center of the Sign”.<br class=""> <br class="">When writing the Position of Contact, try to place the two contacting symbols as close to each other as possible. Try to make it look like it does in real life. There should be very little space between the two contacting symbols.<br class=""> <br class="">SignSpellings revolve around the Position of Contact like a small universe. The Position of Contact is the Center of the Sign, and the Movement and Contact Symbols relate to that center.<br class=""> <br class=""> <br class=""><span id="cid:18093e616618a2d91781"><clip_image001.jpg></span><br class=""> <br class=""> <br class="">The Position of Contact is important because it holds the meaning in a sign. The eye focuses on the Position of Contact when reading. The Position of Contact is like a unit.<br class=""> <br class="">Writing the Position of Contact also creates smaller signs in width and height, which makes writing in vertical columns more centered and compact, making the columns themselves less wide.<br class=""> <br class="">Writing the Position of Contact gives a visual picture of the sign. Since you can see the two hands are touching by their close placement, the single Touch Contact Star is rarely necessary. It is not wrong to write the single Touch Contact Star, but it is not necessary either. This simplifies the writing of signs.<br class=""> <br class="">Double Touch Contact Stars are written no matter what, because Double Touch, or Touch-Touch, is a movement, not a position. It is only single Touch Contact Stars that can be eliminated.<br class=""><br class="">SignSpelling Guideline 1<br class="">The two contacting symbols, such as the Hands and Face, are written close to each other. Then Movement Symbols are placed nearby.<br class=""> <br class="">Sometimes the entire sign is nothing but the Position of Contact, with no other symbols needed.<br class=""> <br class=""> <br class=""><span id="cid:18093e61661beee4eef2"><clip_image003.jpeg></span></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Now, your question about Sign Search in software. That is a different issue because it depends on the software I would assume. And sometimes searching is specially programmed to fit your criteria...</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The point about following "SignSpelling Guideline 1: Always Write The Position of Contact” is that it cuts down on the number of symbols used to write a sign. Many signs can be written and read accurately with fewer symbols, so in the long run signs should be easier to find. And its much easier for the reader.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I am not sure what to tell you about searching since I am a movement notator, and not a programmer… but let’s keep the conversation going… I bet we all can learn much from each other…</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Val ;-)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">--------<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On May 4, 2022, at 1:56 PM, Uta Meißner <<a href="mailto:uta.hielscher@GMAIL.COM" target="_blank" class="">uta.hielscher@GMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class="">Dear Valerie,<br class=""><br class="">thank you for links with a lot of Informations.<br class=""><br class="">I actually don't remember reading those once, although I was on signpuddle a lot 3 years ago looking for information. I missed a lot of things. Well, I will take the time to read them.<br class=""><br class="">Thanks for your suggestion on my sign names 🙂 I like it better. 😊<br class="">I had once thought long and hard about when just beginning hand shape, when just ending hand shape and when both. And unfortunately couldn't find any simple rules about it, which I could then explain to everyone who wants to use the sign search at <a href="http://sign2mint.de/" target="_blank" class="">sign2mint.de</a>.<br class="">If they exist, please tell me. That would make me happy.<br class="">My current immature thinking is, there are two parts at SWU. The first part is responsible for the order of the found results, while the second part contains information about symbols in the signwriting image, their coordinates and level. There I would like to put all the symbols that the signwriting describes, but in their assigned place.<br class="">1. right initial hand shape<br class="">2. right end hand shape<br class="">3. left initial handshape<br class="">4. left end hand shape<br class="">5. localization (head, neck,..) <br class="">5. contact before movement<br class="">6. primary movement for right hand<br class="">7. secondary movement for right hand<br class="">8th primary movement for left hand<br class="">9. secondary movement for left hand<br class="">10. contact after movement<br class="">11. dynamics (fast, slow,..) <br class="">12. dynamics (parallel, alternating ...) <br class="">13. facial expression mouth<br class="">14. facial expression eye<br class="">15. .... <br class=""><br class="">@all Do any of you here still consciously use the first part of SWU? When do you need it?<br class=""><br class="">Best regards<br class="">Uta<br class=""><br class="">Valerie Sutton <<a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org" target="_blank" class="">sutton@signwriting.org</a>> schrieb am Mi., 4. Mai 2022, 18:21:<br class="">SignWriting List<br class="">May 4, 2022<br class=""><br class="">Hello everyone, and Uta -<br class="">Thank you for these questions related to how many handshapes are needed to write signs. And your examples show two different issues.<br class=""><br class="">So let me take your second example first.<br class=""><br class="">When I personally write, I follow our SignSpelling Guidelines, that help with this issue. Your second example would be written differently, following "SignSpelling Guideline 1: First Write the Position of Contact”, which is explained on numbered pages 194-195 in the Lessons in SignWriting Textbook. It is also explained on this web page: <a href="https://www.signwriting.org/lessons/elessons/less063.html" target="_blank" class="">https://www.signwriting.org/lessons/elessons/less063.html</a><br class=""><br class="">Lessons in SignWriting Textbook, (See numbered pages 194-195)<br class=""><a href="https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs2/sw0116-Lessons-SignWriting.pdf" target="_blank" class="">https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs2/sw0116-Lessons-SignWriting.pdf</a><br class=""><br class="">So to explain… in your second example, following the Guideline, I would write the “Position of Contact”, because there is real meaning in the ending position. And to have a position of contact, there has to be an open position in the beginning, so that can be assumed…<br class=""><br class="">So I would write it this way. In my attached example, the second one would take away the opening position because it can easily assumed:<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><img id="gmail-m_881464711581208704m_560139344682505928305FADE97-BDB4-4580-B4EF-7E6CF3D5E3FD" width="96" height="146" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On May 4, 2022, at 5:35 AM, Uta Meißner <<a href="mailto:uta.hielscher@GMAIL.COM" target="_blank" class="">uta.hielscher@GMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class="">Hi all,<br class=""><br class="">I would take example (4), because the hand will be open during movement. <br class="">If the reader knows signwriting well, then I would like to reduce the symbols.<br class=""><br class="">There is the symbol for opening the fingers. " ^ "<br class=""><br class="">I'm interested if you guys can read my proposed signwriting better.<br class=""><br class=""><img id="gmail-m_881464711581208704m_5601393446825059283B0796671-AC81-4967-BC7D-B479E4F46E37" class=""><br class=""><br class="">I know, not always only the first hand form is enough, sometimes you need the end hand form for that. How about highlighting the two hand shapes in different colors. Start handshape -> dark gray and end handshape -> black?<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><img id="gmail-m_881464711581208704m_56013934468250592836D25A612-7132-425A-8D79-8CA33DDCFDFF" class=""><br class="">Uta<br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br class="">________________________________________________<br class=""><br class="">SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION<br class=""><br class="">Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator <a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org" target="_blank" class="">sutton@signwriting.org</a><br class=""><br class="">Post Messages to the SignWriting List: <a href="mailto:sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu" target="_blank" class="">sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu</a><br class=""><br class="">SignWriting List Archives & Home Page <a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist" target="_blank" class="">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist</a><br class=""><br class="">Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages <a href="http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1" target="_blank" class="">http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1</a><br class=""><br class="">________________________________________________<br class=""><br class="">SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION<br class=""><br class="">Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator <a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org" target="_blank" class="">sutton@signwriting.org</a><br class=""><br class="">Post Messages to the SignWriting List: <a href="mailto:sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu" target="_blank" class="">sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu</a><br class=""><br class="">SignWriting List Archives & Home Page <a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist" target="_blank" class="">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist</a><br class=""><br class="">Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages <a href="http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1" target="_blank" class="">http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1</a> <span id="gmail-m_881464711581208704cid:18090c6c732cb971f163" class=""><image.png></span><span id="gmail-m_881464711581208704cid:18090c6c73243093ef61" class=""><Image.png></span><span id="gmail-m_881464711581208704cid:18090c6c732cb971f162" class=""><image.png></span><span id="gmail-m_881464711581208704cid:%3C%3E" class=""><image.png></span><span id="gmail-m_881464711581208704cid:%3C%3E" class=""><image.png></span><span id="gmail-m_881464711581208704cid:%3C%3E" class=""><image.png></span><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""></div></div>________________________________________________
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