<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Apache (<a href="https://sign2mint.de/entry/Apache/14548230564932464:489" class="">https://sign2mint.de/entry/Apache/14548230564932464:489</a>)<div class=""><img apple-inline="yes" id="D7D1BDF8-E9D9-456F-8972-A9D92CE8D678" width="82" height="62" src="cid:DCB985A0-6290-4A1E-B7EA-723A0D9447B4" class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Run (<a href="https://sign2mint.de/entry/run/14548230564932464:1625" class="">https://sign2mint.de/entry/run/14548230564932464:1625</a>)</div><div class=""><img apple-inline="yes" id="286504F5-F5D8-4214-82CB-582CFD3DEF66" width="95" height="57" src="cid:C4E53C34-76D0-4ECA-8A46-89752D702A9D" class=""></div><div class="">I know you had just the downward wrist flex movement, but I also saw an arm movement so I added it.</div><div class="">I’m also thinking that maybe this movement is not a downward wrist flex, but a backward wrist flex. But if that is the case, then should the palm facing be changed? What do others think?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Response (<a href="https://sign2mint.de/entry/Response/14548230564932464:1619" class="">https://sign2mint.de/entry/Response/14548230564932464:1619</a>)</div><div class=""><img apple-inline="yes" id="96CA0E3E-BCD4-45AD-BEC5-2DF2894E2DE1" width="78" height="86" src="cid:8CE1B469-9F16-45DE-8300-639609C93A7D" class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This isn’t an official rule/guideline, but I have noticed that often the palm facing has an impact on which plane the wrist flex is. If the palm faces the wall, the wrist flex will generally be on the floor plane. If the palm faces the floor plane, the wrist flex will generally be on the wall plane. The three spellings above are examples of that.</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<span><img apple-inline="yes" id="89F41451-1022-48ED-8223-727C69146507" src="cid:BC7FF2BE-B327-4618-B076-E92B91C176BA@home" class=""></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Adam</span>
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 14, 2022, at 8:49 AM, Uta Meißner <<a href="mailto:uta.hielscher@GMAIL.COM" class="">uta.hielscher@GMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Hi all,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">example for wrist-movement to front and back:</div><div class=""><a href="https://sign2mint.de/entry/Apache/14548230564932464:489" class="">https://sign2mint.de/entry/Apache/14548230564932464:489</a> <br class=""></div><div class="">-> double arrow shaft</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://sign2mint.de/entry/run/14548230564932464:1625" class="">https://sign2mint.de/entry/run/14548230564932464:1625</a><br class=""></div><div class="">-> double arrow shaft</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://sign2mint.de/entry/Response/14548230564932464:1619" class="">https://sign2mint.de/entry/Response/14548230564932464:1619</a><br class=""></div><div class="">-> only one arrow shaft</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks!<br class="">Uta</div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 5:41 PM Uta Meißner <<a href="mailto:uta.hielscher@gmail.com" class="">uta.hielscher@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">Hi all,<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">especially interesting:<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://sign2mint.de/entry/WhatsApp/14548230564932464:1781" target="_blank" class="">https://sign2mint.de/entry/WhatsApp/14548230564932464:1781</a><br class=""></div><div class="">-> handorientation is wrong, sorry. But how can the movement track be displayed better.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://sign2mint.de/entry/Theta_gr_klein_/10404133549140756:46" target="_blank" class="">https://sign2mint.de/entry/Theta_gr_klein_/10404133549140756:46</a><br class=""></div><div class="">-> similar problem</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://sign2mint.de/entry/Teleskop/14548230564932464:1024" target="_blank" class="">https://sign2mint.de/entry/Teleskop/14548230564932464:1024</a><br class=""></div><div class="">-> wrist movement usually keeps the arm still, but this is not the case here. The hand tends to stay in the same place while the arm moves. Idea how to write it down?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class=""><a href="https://sign2mint.de/entry/Wireless%20Local%20Area%20Network%20%28WLAN%29/15390698211663808:501" target="_blank" class="">https://sign2mint.de/entry/Wireless%20Local%20Area%20Network%20%28WLAN%29/15390698211663808:501</a><br class=""></div><div class="">-> with wrist movement?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks</div><div class="">Uta</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div style="outline:none;padding:10px 0px;width:22px;margin:2px 0px 0px" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="outline:none;padding:10px 0px;width:22px;margin:2px 0px 0px" class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 5:01 PM Uta Meißner <<a href="mailto:uta.hielscher@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">uta.hielscher@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr" class="">Hi Adam and all,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">"I did a small case study of finding native signers who don’t know SignWriting and asked them if the movement was a straight movement or curved movement. The majority said curved, which was supported by illustrations of the sign that I found as well. "</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I find your statement so interesting.<br class="">I also wondered when I was learning signwriting why the arrows in hand gestures are straight. For me, that's mostly a quarter circle.<br class="">I've created a lot of sign scripts, so I've noticed that sometimes it doesn't matter whether it's straight or quadrant. Only the direction has to be right. Because if you sign small, then the arm would rather stay still and only the hand moves, the movement path is rather curvy. But if you sign big, then your arm moves with you, so the path of movement can be straight or curved.<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My conclusion: straight lines are easier to draw and read, but harder to understand. Especially to the front or back<br class=""><br class="">Question for you: How do you write that? On the table level with an arrow shaft and on the window level with a double arrow shaft. But at the rowboat level?<br class=""><br class=""><a href="https://sign2mint.de/search/gebaerdensuche" target="_blank" class="">https://sign2mint.de/search/gebaerdensuche</a><br class="">You can select the wrist symbol for "movement", then you will get all gestures with wrist movement.<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If you feel like it, you are welcome to compare videos with sign writing and see whether you would also write in this way. :)<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Greetings Uta</div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 6, 2022 at 9:05 PM Adam Frost <<a href="mailto:icemandeaf@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">icemandeaf@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="">I think what we are seeing here is best explained by “proximalization”, which is basically how signers with more skill in a sign language to produce their movements will switched away from proximal joints to distal joints. Or in the case of joints on the arm, move away from the shoulder towards the fingertips.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Basically it all depends on how your arm is angled in relations to your hand. If your wrist is bent, your arm will not be parallel to your hand. This would mean that you would have to rotate your arm in order to achieve the movement of the hand. However, if your wrist is not bent, your arm is parallel to your hand. This would mean that your wrist would have to bend in order to achieve the movement of the hand.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Let’s compare these two writing of the sign MINUTE.</div><div class=""><span id="cid:18476c6ccd5238319e91"><Screen Shot 2022-11-06 at 11.38.33 AM.png></span> and <span id="cid:18476c6ccd54c0bf7eb2"><Screen Shot 2022-11-06 at 11.38.53 AM.png></span></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If you were to follow the first writing of minute, it would be assumed that the arm is at least somewhat parallel to the floor<span style="" class="">, which would result in the wrist being bent</span>. That would mean there would be a rotation of the arm for this movement. If you were to follow the second writing of minute, it would be assumed that the arm is at least somewhat parallel to the wall, which would result in the wrist not being bent. That would mean there would be a wrist flex to the side for this movement.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">When I watched your video, your arm was neither parallel to the floor nor the wall, but angled in between. In this case since both extremes would be understood as meaning the same thing, it is ultimately up to the writer to decide which to write. They both have their pros and cons. One way might be easier to read, but another is faster to write. And there will be disagreements as to which is faster to understand.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I did a small case study of finding native signers who don’t know SignWriting and asked them if the movement was a straight movement or curved movement. The majority said curved, which was supported by illustrations of the sign that I found as well. That would make sense why most people who originally wrote the sign used the rotation symbol. But that doesn’t mean that using the wrist flex is wrong.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So, I just want to make clear that both writings are correct in their own ways. You as the writer choose which you feel is best. :-)</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<span class=""><span id="cid:18476c6ccd54dbf12033"><namesign.png></span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline;" class="">Adam</span>
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<div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 4, 2022, at 10:04 AM, Ms. AnnaGrace <<a href="mailto:msannagrace20@GMAIL.COM" target="_blank" class="">msannagrace20@GMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Hi Valerie and all,<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Valerie, thank you for the excellent explanation of the new spelling of ASL's CHEESE. It's a case of compound symbols that causes the wrist to flex side-to-side.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I found <b class="">another</b> ASL sign that uses the wrist side-flex. It's the sign for ONE SECOND. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I asked Hector to read the sign without telling him the ASL meaning. Having an objective, unbiased signer who isn't as familiar with ASL is a very helpful way for me to "proofread" ASL signwriting for the accuracy of SW spelling.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Below is the SW spelling for ONE SECOND from SignPuddle 2.0, a video of Hector's reading of ONE SECOND (I covered the English word for this sign, and he did not know the meaning of this ASL sign), and a video of me doing an ASL sign for ONE SECOND from different angles to show the wrist side-flex. Please watch <b class="">both</b> videos.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Do you think this spelling should be improved to reflect the wrist side-flex? If not, could you explain to me how this spelling can be correctly read to induce a wrist side-flex?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks,</div><div class="">AnnaGrace</div><div class=""><span id="m_7474962305606946227m_-1938008254575455592m_-9132942331046362499cid:ii_la2qvnlj0" class=""><SW, ASL "one second" A copy.png></span><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class="gmail_chip gmail_drive_chip" style="width:396px;height:18px;max-height:18px;background-color:rgb(245,245,245);padding:5px;font-family:arial;font-weight:bold;font-size:13px;border:1px solid rgb(221,221,221);line-height:1"><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/138v-_UuPcOe_6E7dMrQ5FI7l7X_ILzPk/view?usp=drive_web" style="display:inline-block;max-width:366px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:nowrap;text-decoration-line:none;padding:1px 0px;border:none" aria-label="Hector's reading of ASL "one second" copy.mov" target="_blank" class=""><img style="vertical-align: bottom; border: none;" src="https://ssl.gstatic.com/docs/doclist/images/icon_10_generic_list.png" class=""> <span dir="ltr" style="vertical-align:bottom;text-decoration:none" class="">Hector's reading of ASL "one second" copy.mov</span></a><img style="opacity: 0.55; float: right; display: none;" class=""></div></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:15 PM Valerie Sutton <<a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org" target="_blank" class="">sutton@signwriting.org</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">SignWriting List,<br class="">
November 3, 2022<br class="">
<br class="">
Hello SignWriting List, and Hector, Anna Grace and Adam,<br class="">
<br class="">
Thank you for this message, Hector. Clearly, Colombian Sign Language and American Sign Language are two separate and unique languages and both are wonderful to write ;-)<br class="">
<br class="">
I feel blessed to be able to write with all of you, from all over the world.<br class="">
<br class="">
Isn’t it fun to write our different languages and to be alble to share in this way?<br class="">
<br class="">
Purely from a movement writing perspective, the movement and position of the sign for CHEESE in ASL, based on Anna Grace’s video, and also our previous writings, shows a sign that remains contacting (RUB contact symbol shows continuous contact) while moving the hand, from the WRIST joint, from side to side - it is not flipping over - so there is a grinding feeling to it - maybe that is the way they make CHEESE in the US? (big smile) -<br class="">
<br class="">
I have added the Rub Symbol that in this case does not mean that it is rubbing in a circle - when the RUB Symbol is combined with Movement Arrows, such as the Wrist Side to Side motion, the movement follows the arrows but remains “contacting in one place” - so the RUB symbol shows continuous contact in this case:<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
________________________________________________<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
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Valerie Sutton<br class="">
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<br class="">
<br class="">
And there is no “flipping over” like this sign suggests:<br class="">
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<br class="">
this is not correct for CHEESE because the hand is moving side to side from the WRIST, not rotating and flipping over from the elbow - so there are a lot of signs in our ASL database that need to be edited… partly because our symbols have evolved over the years - the WRIST Flex side to side was not used much until recent years…and the SignPuddle database is since 2004! So there are some old signs in there ;-)<br class="">
<br class="">
Thank you to all of you for pointing this out to us -<br class="">
<br class="">
And the sign for TRANSLATE in Colombian Sign Language, Hector, that you have written, makes sense because I have seen similar signs with the same meaning in Danish Sign Language - but this is another sign and very different movement than the American sign for CHEESE, which is not rotating but moving from the wrist side to side like a grinding motion…<br class="">
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Coloimbian sign for TRANSLATE<br class="">
<br class="">
Shall we discuss writing the sign for TRANSLATE later? That will be a good project too -<br class="">
<br class="">
Thanks for the discussion!<br class="">
<br class="">
Val ;-)<br class="">
<br class="">
---------<br class="">
<br class="">
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> On Nov 3, 2022, at 7:30 AM, Hector Devia Robayo <<a href="mailto:hdeviar@GMAIL.COM" target="_blank" class="">hdeviar@GMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:<br class="">
> <br class="">
> Greetings Valery and Anna,<br class="">
> <br class="">
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> The ASL Sign for CHEESE means nothing, it is an empty-meaning sign in the LSC (or at least I can not recall anything in the Colombian Sign Language. But in handshape, location, and movement, the nearer sign could be <br class="">
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> , This LSC Sign stands for TO-TRANSLATE/TRANSLATION from one language into another, generally in written form, between Written and Signed Video. And comparing both signs (the ASL and the LSC) I can see I intuitively used the same symbol movement.<br class="">
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<span id="m_7474962305606946227m_-1938008254575455592m_-9132942331046362499cid:f_la2qwprn1" class=""><AnnaGrace's movement for "one second".MOV></span></p></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div>________________________________________________
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Valerie Sutton
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