<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Hi All,<div>See the thread below from the Association for Linguistic Typology discussion list. Michael Daniel was asking about a particular pattern of morphosyntactic marking, and I responded with evidence of a similar pattern in Qiang. He is now asking me if similar patterns are found in any sister languages. So I am writing to all of you to see if there anything like the pattern we are talking about.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Randy</div><div><div apple-content-edited="true">
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; ">-----</span></span><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana; "><span style="font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; "><b>Prof. Randy J. LaPolla, PhD FAHA</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>（</span><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; font-size: 13px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Song">罗仁地</font></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; ">）| Head, Division of Linguistics and Multilingual Studies | Nanyang Technological University</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); "><br><span style="background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; ">HSS-03-80, 14 Nanyang Drive, Singapore 637332</span></span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; "><span style="background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; "> | </span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); "><span style="background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; ">Tel: (65) 6592-1825 GMT+8h | Fax: (65) 6795-6525 | <a href="http://sino-tibetan.net/rjlapolla/">http://sino-tibetan.net/rjlapolla/</a></span></span></span></div></div></span></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></span>
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<div><br><div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';">"Randy John LaPolla (Prof)" <<a href="mailto:RandyLaPolla@ntu.edu.sg">RandyLaPolla@ntu.edu.sg</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';"><b>Re: temporary Recipient marking</b><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';">3 September, 2014 11:00:04 am GMT+8<br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';">Michael Daniel <<a href="mailto:misha.daniel@GMAIL.COM">misha.daniel@GMAIL.COM</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>Cc: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';">"<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>" <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>><br></span></div><br><div>
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<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Dear Michael,
<div>There is a distinction like this in the Qiang language (Tibeto-Burman; Sichuan, China): if the third argument is seen as a recipient, the genitive marker is used on the noun, but if the argument is seen as a location to which the object moves, then the
allative/locative marker is used. I'll attach the pages from my Qiang grammar on this.</div>
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<div>All the best,</div>
<div>Randy<br>
<div><span class="x_Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Verdana; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;">
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<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span class="x_Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate; font-variant:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:2; word-spacing:0px">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span class="x_Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate; font-variant:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:2; word-spacing:0px"><span class="x_Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px;"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:rgb(34,34,34); background-color:white">-----</span></span>
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span class="x_Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate; font-variant:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:2; word-spacing:0px">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span class="x_Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate; font-variant:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:2; word-spacing:0px"><span class="x_Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate; font-variant:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:2; word-spacing:0px">
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<div style="font-family: Verdana;"><span style="font-weight:normal; font-style:normal; font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:rgb(34,34,34); background-color:white"><b>Prof. Randy J. LaPolla, PhD FAHA</b><span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span>（</span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34); background-color:white; font-size:13px"><font class="x_Apple-style-span" face="Song">罗仁地</font></span><span style="font-weight:normal; font-style:normal; font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:rgb(34,34,34); background-color:white">）|
Head, Division of Linguistics and Multilingual Studies | Nanyang Technological University</span><span class="x_Apple-style-span" style="font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:15px"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br>
<span style="background-color:white">HSS-03-80, 14 Nanyang Drive, Singapore 637332</span></span></span><span class="x_Apple-style-span" style="font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:13px"><span style="background-color:white"> | </span></span><span class="x_Apple-style-span" style="font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:15px"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span style="background-color:white">Tel:
(65) 6592-1825 GMT+8h | Fax: (65) 6795-6525 | <a href="http://sino-tibetan.net/rjlapolla/">
http://sino-tibetan.net/rjlapolla/</a></span></span></span></div>
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<div>On 3 Sep, 2014, at 5:24 am, Michael Daniel <<a href="mailto:misha.daniel@GMAIL.COM">misha.daniel@GMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div>Dear all,<br>
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most East Caucasian (alias Nakh-Daghestanian) languages have two options to mark the Recipient with the verb 'give'. One uses the dative case and may be called the dative strategy of Recipient marking. The other uses one of the spatial, more specifically (al)lative
forms (there are many), and may be termed the lative strategy. A similar construction is also attested in another language of the Caucasus, Ossetic, which suggests an areal connection.
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The difference between the two strategies is often explained as the difference between permanent and temporary Recipients.
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"I gave Mohammed-Dat the book" <br>
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'I gave (offered) the book to M.'<br>
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"I gave Mohammed-Lat the book" <br>
'I gave (lent) the book to M.'<br>
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Of course, I omit a great lot of language specific details; one important note, however, is that the opposition may also be interpreted as that of transfer (of possession) vs. caused motion - something like 'give' vs. 'hand'. In a sense, these languages distinguish
two components in the semantics of give, that are (almost) always inseparable - that of caused motion and that of transfer.
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My question is - could anyone give me references for or just mention language names that do the same or similar kind of distinction on nouns - by means of case or adposition or other means. Any other grammatical means to express this opposition (or opposition
close to this) is also very much welcome as a typological background. (I can probably think of a variation in the marking of the Theme - the Given Object).
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<div>Michael Daniel<br>
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<div>PS<br>
I am aware that a similar contrast or at least a related metaphor has been proposed for the opposition between the English. This is the parallel I am aware of (even though I do not think it works well here).
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<div>If anyone is interested in the data from or reference for East Caucasian, I will be happy to provide it.<br>
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