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<div dir="ltr">Hey again,<div><br></div><div>It might also be worth noting that the numbers one and two tend to have distinct features in Indo-European as well.<div><br></div><div>In English, we have one (cardinal) vs first (ordinal) and two (cardinal) vs second (ordinal) which have separate etymologies. Above that, the ordinals are etymologically derived from the cardinals (three - third, four - fourth etc).</div><div><br></div><div>In Portuguese, the numbers um (one) and dois (two) inflect for feminine gender as uma and duas. This originally stems from Latin although note this was not preserved in Spanish for the number two where dos is always dos.</div><div><br></div><div>It might be interesting to see how this ties back to the "one, two, many" argument regarding counting.</div><div><br></div><div>By the way, you might want to check out Matisoff's 1997 volume "Sino-Tibetan Numeral Systems: Prefixes, Protoforms and Problems"</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Chris</div><div><br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:30:46 +0900<br>From: jinozu@yahoo.co.jp<br>To: randy.lapolla@gmail.com; gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com<br>CC: tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org<br>Subject: Re: [Tibeto-burman-linguistics] A question about numerals<br><br><div style="color:;background-color:;font-family:MS PGothic, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"><div><span>I should add some information on Japanese.</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div>After posting the last email, I realized my information is somewhat misleading.</div><div>The Japanese originated classifiers usually co-occur with the Japanese numerals under 'four'.</div><div>If you wish to say 'five bags' or 'six bags', we usually use Kango numerals like 'go-hukuro' [five<CH>-CLF<J>], 'rop-pukuro' [six<CH>-CLF<J>].</div><div><br></div><div>So, the native numeral in Japanese can be considered to be in limited use.</div><div><br></div><div>Norihiko</div><div><br><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);padding-left:5px;"> <div style="font-family:'MS PGothic', sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div style="font-family:'MS PGothic', sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> ----- Original Message -----<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> HAYASHI NORIHIKO <jinozu@yahoo.co.jp><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> Randy LaPolla <randy.lapolla@gmail.com>; Gwendolyn Lowes Hyslop <gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com> <br><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b> The Tibeto-Burman Discussion List Discussion List <tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Date:</span></b> 2014/12/17, Wed 10:20<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Tibeto-burman-linguistics] A question about numerals<br> </font> </div> <br><div id="ecxyiv200653463"><div style="font-family:'MS PGothic', sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"><div><span>Hello! Gwen-san and all!</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span>I think it is interesting to note that the numerals in Bhutanese languages also have</span></div><div><span>two-way systems, one of which is borrowed from other language sources, </span><span style="font-size:12pt;">as Prof. LaPolla said</span><span style="font-size:12pt;">.</span></div><div><span>In Modern Japanese, we generally use two-way system when counting from one to ten, </span></div><div><span>and if the classifier is Japanese origin, the numeral should be also Japanese origin in general.</span></div><div><span>If the classifier is Kango (Chinese) origin, the numeral should be also Chinese origin.</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div>'one' iti <CH>/ hito <J></div><div>'two' ni <CH>/ huta <span style="font-size:12pt;"> <J></span></div><div>'three' san <CH>/ mi
<J></div><div>.....</div><div>'ten' zyuu <CH>/ too <J></div><div><br></div><div>'a piece of paper' iti-mai [one<CH>-CLF<CH>]</div><div>'a bag' hito-hukuro [one<J>-CLF<J>]</div><div><br></div><div>Over 'ten', we generally use Kango originated numerals, though we used to have Japanese ones in former days.</div><div><br></div><div>In Standard Thai, there are two kinds of 'one' and 'two', though their features are not similar to Japanese.</div><div>The word for 'one' is nWng (Low tone) and for 'two' is sOOng (Rising tone).</div><div>There are, however, the other words for 'one' and 'two', namely, et (Low tone) and yii (Falling tone) respectively.</div><div>Et is used for 'twenty-one', 'thirty-one', ..., 'ninety-one', and yii is used for 'twenty', 'twenty-one', 'twenty-two', ... 'twenty-nine'.</div><div>Both of them are Chinese
origins as well as sOOng for 'two'.</div><div><br></div><div>So, I think Kurtop system is somewhat similar to Japanese one rather than Thai.</div><div><br></div><div>All the best,</div><div><br></div><div>Norihiko</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);padding-left:5px;"> <div style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> ----- Original Message -----<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Randy LaPolla <randy.lapolla@gmail.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> Gwendolyn Lowes Hyslop <gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com> <br><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b> The
Tibeto-Burman Discussion List Discussion List <tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Date:</span></b> 2014/12/17, Wed 09:21<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Tibeto-burman-linguistics] A question about numerals<br> </font> </div> <br><div id="ecxyiv200653463">Hi Gwen,<div>This is actually found in a number of languages in the family, though I don't have access to the information right now. It often implies there was a native system that was replaced by a borrowed one, as in Japanese and Thai.</div><div><br></div><div>Randy</div><div><br><div><div>On 17 Dec, 2014, at 7:08 am, Gwendolyn Hyslop <<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com">gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="ecxyiv200653463Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote><div style="word-wrap:break-word;">Dear Tibeto-Burmanists,<div><br></div><div>In most languages of Bhutan I have looked at, I have found special forms of the numbers 'one' and 'two' for measurement contexts. For example, Kurtöp 'one' and 'two' are <i>thê</i> and <i>zon</i> unless counting things like containers (<i>bre, phuya, </i>etc.) of grain, points in archery, distance measured by fingers, hands, bodies, etc. In those contexts 'one' and 'two' are <i>bleng</i> and <i>gwâ</i>. I believe a similar system is also in Tibetan as well as in other Bhutanese languages, although the forms do not appear to be cognate (Dzongkha <i>g'ang</i> and <i>d'o, </i>for example)<i>.</i> Although it is not exactly the same sort of system, I am also reminded of the difference between the two Mandarin words for 'two<i>'. (er2</i> and
<i>liang3</i>)</div><div><br></div><div>So, my question to you: how widespread is this? Is it just a Tibetan/Bhutan thing or is it more widespread than this?</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Gwen</div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Tibeto-burman-linguistics mailing list<br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:Tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org">Tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/tibeto-burman-linguistics<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Tibeto-burman-linguistics mailing list<br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:Tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org">Tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/tibeto-burman-linguistics">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/tibeto-burman-linguistics</a><br><br><br> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> </div></div><br><br> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> </div><br>_______________________________________________
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