<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dear Colleagues,<div><br></div><div>Many thanks for such insightful responses! This is all very interesting and Norihiko-san and Randy's comments put an interesting spin on things and give me much to think about. If Randy -- or anyone else -- has more details about the systems or forms in other Tibeto-Burman languages I would be quite interested in references or details. I'm especially wondering if there there any cognates out there for <i>bleng</i> and <i>gwâ</i> (alternates with <i>gwak</i>, so probably the more original form would be <i>gwak</i>).</div><div><br></div><div>Gwen</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Dec 17, 2014, at 2:30 PM, HAYASHI NORIHIKO wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="color:; background-color:; font-family:MS PGothic, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>I should add some information on Japanese.</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div>After posting the last email, I realized my information is somewhat misleading.</div><div>The Japanese originated classifiers usually co-occur with the Japanese numerals under 'four'.</div><div>If you wish to say 'five bags' or 'six bags', we usually use Kango numerals like 'go-hukuro' [five<CH>-CLF<J>], 'rop-pukuro' [six<CH>-CLF<J>].</div><div><br></div><div>So, the native numeral in Japanese can be considered to be in limited use.</div><div><br></div><div>Norihiko</div><div><br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> <div style="font-family: 'MS PGothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; "> <div style="font-family: 'MS PGothic', sans-serif; font-size:
12pt; "> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> ----- Original Message -----<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> HAYASHI NORIHIKO <<a href="mailto:jinozu@yahoo.co.jp">jinozu@yahoo.co.jp</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Randy LaPolla <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>>; Gwendolyn Lowes Hyslop <<a href="mailto:gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com">gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com</a>> <br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> The Tibeto-Burman Discussion List Discussion List <<a href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org">tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Date:</span></b> 2014/12/17, Wed 10:20<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Tibeto-burman-linguistics] A question about numerals<br> </font> </div> <br><div id="yiv200653463"><div style="font-family: 'MS PGothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;
"><div><span>Hello! Gwen-san and all!</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span>I think it is interesting to note that the numerals in Bhutanese languages also have</span></div><div><span>two-way systems, one of which is borrowed from other language sources, </span><span style="font-size:12pt;">as Prof. LaPolla said</span><span style="font-size:12pt;">.</span></div><div><span>In Modern Japanese, we generally use two-way system when counting from one to ten, </span></div><div><span>and if the classifier is Japanese origin, the numeral should be also Japanese origin in general.</span></div><div><span>If the classifier is Kango (Chinese) origin, the numeral should be also Chinese origin.</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div>'one' iti <CH>/ hito <J></div><div>'two' ni <CH>/ huta <span style="font-size:12pt;"> <J></span></div><div>'three' san <CH>/ mi
<J></div><div>.....</div><div>'ten' zyuu <CH>/ too <J></div><div><br></div><div>'a piece of paper' iti-mai [one<CH>-CLF<CH>]</div><div>'a bag' hito-hukuro [one<J>-CLF<J>]</div><div><br></div><div>Over 'ten', we generally use Kango originated numerals, though we used to have Japanese ones in former days.</div><div><br></div><div>In Standard Thai, there are two kinds of 'one' and 'two', though their features are not similar to Japanese.</div><div>The word for 'one' is nWng (Low tone) and for 'two' is sOOng (Rising tone).</div><div>There are, however, the other words for 'one' and 'two', namely, et (Low tone) and yii (Falling tone) respectively.</div><div>Et is used for 'twenty-one', 'thirty-one', ..., 'ninety-one', and yii is used for 'twenty', 'twenty-one', 'twenty-two', ... 'twenty-nine'.</div><div>Both of them are Chinese
origins as well as sOOng for 'two'.</div><div><br></div><div>So, I think Kurtop system is somewhat similar to Japanese one rather than Thai.</div><div><br></div><div>All the best,</div><div><br></div><div>Norihiko</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;margin-top:5px;padding-left:5px;"> <div style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; "> <div style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; "> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> ----- Original Message -----<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Randy LaPolla <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> Gwendolyn Lowes Hyslop <<a href="mailto:gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com">gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com</a>> <br><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b> The
Tibeto-Burman Discussion List Discussion List <<a href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org">tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Date:</span></b> 2014/12/17, Wed 09:21<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Tibeto-burman-linguistics] A question about numerals<br> </font> </div> <br><div id="yiv200653463">Hi Gwen,<div>This is actually found in a number of languages in the family, though I don't have access to the information right now. It often implies there was a native system that was replaced by a borrowed one, as in Japanese and Thai.</div><div><br></div><div>Randy</div><div><br><div><div>On 17 Dec, 2014, at 7:08 am, Gwendolyn Hyslop <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com">gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="yiv200653463Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;">Dear Tibeto-Burmanists,<div><br></div><div>In most languages of Bhutan I have looked at, I have found special forms of the numbers 'one' and 'two' for measurement contexts. For example, Kurtöp 'one' and 'two' are <i>thê</i> and <i>zon</i> unless counting things like containers (<i>bre, phuya, </i>etc.) of grain, points in archery, distance measured by fingers, hands, bodies, etc. In those contexts 'one' and 'two' are <i>bleng</i> and <i>gwâ</i>. I believe a similar system is also in Tibetan as well as in other Bhutanese languages, although the forms do not appear to be cognate (Dzongkha <i>g'ang</i> and <i>d'o, </i>for example)<i>.</i> Although it is not exactly the same sort of system, I am also reminded of the difference between the two Mandarin words for 'two<i>'. (er2</i> and
<i>liang3</i>)</div><div><br></div><div>So, my question to you: how widespread is this? Is it just a Tibetan/Bhutan thing or is it more widespread than this?</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Gwen</div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Tibeto-burman-linguistics mailing list<br><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:Tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org">Tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/tibeto-burman-linguistics">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/tibeto-burman-linguistics</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Tibeto-burman-linguistics mailing list<br><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:Tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org">Tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/tibeto-burman-linguistics">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/tibeto-burman-linguistics</a><br><br><br> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> </div></div><br><br> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>