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Dear all,<br>
<br>
About Randy's suggestion to use the MPI website for information, I
want to say that unfortunately the site has been conceived with a
bias towards decimal systems. <br>
The questionaire provided does not let you enter information about
other systems (vigesimal for instance).<br>
<br>
I mentioned this problem years ago to Dr Chan, but no space has been
provided in the site to accommodate other systems, which is why I
have not filled in the Tamang or Dzongkha information. <br>
When I check the site today I see that Eastern Tamang is totally
wrong. I can tell you that it is a fully vigesimal system, and the
decimal forms provided on the site are a modern fabrication, done
with the best intentions of modernization and education in mind, but
from our documentation point of view, misguided, and (most
important) not used by speakers.<br>
<br>
Some languages like Dzongkha have two parallel systems. The site
lists decimal forms only, with a brief mention: <strong
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Charis SIL'; font-size:
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
font-weight: 400; background-color: rgb(204, 255, 102);">"Other
comments: </strong><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
'Charis SIL'; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(204, 255, 102);"><span class="SpellE">Dzhongkha
has a decimal system and an archaic numeral system based on
twenty.</span></span>"<br>
<br>
I have talked here only about the different bases that should be
recorded (e.g. vigesimal for Dzongkha) but other structural
peculiarities (fractional counting, overcounting) remain
undocumented also if some key numbers are not recorded (like 31,35,
36 and 400!).<br>
<br>
The result of the decimal policy of the site is that the rarer
systems are not reported.<br>
<br>
In our time, when decimal systems are fast gaining ground, it is too
bad that a scientific site should collude with governments and other
institutional bodies to help destroy the diversity of structures in
languages. As we all know, calques are one of the ways a language
gets "endangered from the inside".<br>
<br>
I have dealt with these matters in publications which you can find
on academia.edu or Hal-SHS. I wish you all would help me in my
proselytizing in favor of the proper documentation of number
systems: record at least ALL numbers to 100, and try to prod for
multiple systems, appropriate to diverse circumstances, either
sociolinguistic or semantic, a diversity which brings us back to
Gwen's original question.<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.academia.edu/3253865/Number_building_in_Tibeto-Burman_languages">https://www.academia.edu/3253865/Number_building_in_Tibeto-Burman_languages</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.academia.edu/3253848/Dzongkha_number_systems">https://www.academia.edu/3253848/Dzongkha_number_systems</a><br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Martine<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 18/12/2014 03:08, Randy LaPolla a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:846709AF-9596-4D10-8420-093935BB1B91@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
One option, if you want to check the systems of particular
languages, is to go through the lists on
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lingweb.eva.mpg.de/numeral/">http://lingweb.eva.mpg.de/numeral/</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Randy</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On 17 Dec, 2014, at 6:24 pm, Gwendolyn Hyslop <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com">gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dear Colleagues,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Many thanks for such insightful responses! This is
all very interesting and Norihiko-san and Randy's
comments put an interesting spin on things and give me
much to think about. If Randy -- or anyone else -- has
more details about the systems or forms in other
Tibeto-Burman languages I would be quite interested in
references or details. I'm especially wondering if there
there any cognates out there for <i>bleng</i> and <i>gwâ</i> (alternates
with <i>gwak</i>, so probably the more original form
would be <i>gwak</i>).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Gwen</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Dec 17, 2014, at 2:30 PM, HAYASHI NORIHIKO
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="color:; background-color:;
font-family:MS PGothic, sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<div><span>I should add some information on
Japanese.</span></div>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<div>After posting the last email, I realized my
information is somewhat misleading.</div>
<div>The Japanese originated classifiers usually
co-occur with the Japanese numerals under
'four'.</div>
<div>If you wish to say 'five bags' or 'six bags',
we usually use Kango numerals like 'go-hukuro'
[five<CH>-CLF<J>], 'rop-pukuro'
[six<CH>-CLF<J>].</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, the native numeral in Japanese can be
considered to be in limited use.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Norihiko</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid
rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px;
margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;">
<div style="font-family: 'MS PGothic',
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; ">
<div style="font-family: 'MS PGothic',
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; ">
<div dir="ltr"> <font size="2"
face="Arial"> ----- Original Message
-----<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>
HAYASHI NORIHIKO <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jinozu@yahoo.co.jp">jinozu@yahoo.co.jp</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
Randy LaPolla <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>>;
Gwendolyn Lowes Hyslop <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com">gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b>
The Tibeto-Burman Discussion List
Discussion List <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org">tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Date:</span></b>
2014/12/17, Wed 10:20<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Tibeto-burman-linguistics] A
question about numerals<br>
</font> </div>
<br>
<div id="yiv200653463">
<div style="font-family: 'MS PGothic',
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; ">
<div><span>Hello! Gwen-san and all!</span></div>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<div><span>I think it is interesting
to note that the numerals in
Bhutanese languages also have</span></div>
<div><span>two-way systems, one of
which is borrowed from other
language sources, </span><span
style="font-size:12pt;">as Prof.
LaPolla said</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;">.</span></div>
<div><span>In Modern Japanese, we
generally use two-way system when
counting from one to ten, </span></div>
<div><span>and if the classifier is
Japanese origin, the numeral
should be also Japanese origin in
general.</span></div>
<div><span>If the classifier is Kango
(Chinese) origin, the numeral
should be also Chinese origin.</span></div>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<div>'one' iti <CH>/ hito
<J></div>
<div>'two' ni <CH>/ huta <span
style="font-size:12pt;"> <J></span></div>
<div>'three' san <CH>/ mi
<J></div>
<div>.....</div>
<div>'ten' zyuu <CH>/ too
<J></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>'a piece of paper' iti-mai
[one<CH>-CLF<CH>]</div>
<div>'a bag' hito-hukuro
[one<J>-CLF<J>]</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Over 'ten', we generally use
Kango originated numerals, though we
used to have Japanese ones in former
days.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In Standard Thai, there are two
kinds of 'one' and 'two', though
their features are not similar to
Japanese.</div>
<div>The word for 'one' is nWng (Low
tone) and for 'two' is sOOng (Rising
tone).</div>
<div>There are, however, the other
words for 'one' and 'two', namely,
et (Low tone) and yii (Falling tone)
respectively.</div>
<div>Et is used for 'twenty-one',
'thirty-one', ..., 'ninety-one', and
yii is used for 'twenty',
'twenty-one', 'twenty-two', ...
'twenty-nine'.</div>
<div>Both of them are Chinese origins
as well as sOOng for 'two'.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, I think Kurtop system is
somewhat similar to Japanese one
rather than Thai.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All the best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Norihiko</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote style="border-left:2px
solid rgb(16, 16,
255);margin-left:5px;margin-top:5px;padding-left:5px;">
<div style="font-family:
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; ">
<div style="font-family:
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; ">
<div dir="ltr"> <font
size="2" face="Arial">
----- Original Message
-----<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>
Randy LaPolla <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b>
Gwendolyn Lowes Hyslop
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com">gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b>
The Tibeto-Burman
Discussion List Discussion
List <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org">tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold;">Date:</span></b>
2014/12/17, Wed 09:21<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re:
[Tibeto-burman-linguistics]
A question about numerals<br>
</font> </div>
<br>
<div id="yiv200653463">Hi
Gwen,
<div>This is actually found
in a number of languages
in the family, though I
don't have access to the
information right now. It
often implies there was a
native system that was
replaced by a borrowed
one, as in Japanese and
Thai.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Randy</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On 17 Dec, 2014, at
7:08 am, Gwendolyn
Hyslop <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com">gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="yiv200653463Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word;">Dear
Tibeto-Burmanists,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In most
languages of
Bhutan I have
looked at, I have
found special
forms of the
numbers 'one' and
'two' for
measurement
contexts. For
example, Kurtöp
'one' and 'two'
are <i>thê</i> and
<i>zon</i> unless
counting things
like containers (<i>bre,
phuya, </i>etc.)
of grain, points
in archery,
distance measured
by fingers, hands,
bodies, etc. In
those contexts
'one' and 'two'
are <i>bleng</i> and
<i>gwâ</i>. I
believe a similar
system is also in
Tibetan as well as
in other Bhutanese
languages,
although the forms
do not appear to
be cognate
(Dzongkha <i>g'ang</i> and
<i>d'o, </i>for
example)<i>.</i> Although
it is not exactly
the same sort of
system, I am also
reminded of the
difference between
the two Mandarin
words for 'two<i>'.
(er2</i> and <i>liang3</i>)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, my question
to you: how
widespread is
this? Is it just a
Tibetan/Bhutan
thing or is it
more widespread
than this?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div>Gwen</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martine Mazaudon
Directeur de recherche au CNRS
LACITO
7 rue Guy Moquet
94800 Villejuif, FRANCE
Tel. (33)-(0)1-49 58 37 56
some publications can be found at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr">http://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr</a></pre>
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