<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hey all,<div>Just to add a note that Rawat (ISO code <i>jnl</i>) has diff roots for cardinal & ordinal 'one' and 'first' ... </div><div><br></div><div><b>dã '</b>One'</div><div>
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<!--StartFragment--><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><b>dã </b><b><span style="font-family:"Devanagari Sangam MN";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Devanagari Sangam MN";mso-bidi-font-family:"Devanagari Sangam MN";
letter-spacing:1.1pt"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span></span></b>RT+RW <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">num., adj., adv., pron. </i>one, a, alone, single, only, it.
RW:
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">dã hawlo biy-ha-re,</i> a fog is coming. (Also Raute (<i>rau)</i>: <i>dã-ha phwə-i le, </i>only he has gone). [<i>< </i>ST *<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal">dan </i>‘one’; PTB *<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">dan </i>‘single,
one, whole, only’] </p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><o:p></o:p></p>
<!--EndFragment--></div><div><b>ti- </b>'First' (of smthg)</div><div>
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<!--StartFragment--><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><b>ti</b><b style="font-style: italic; "> </b>RW<i> </i><i style="font-style: italic; ">adj. </i>first (of smthg)<i>. </i><i style="font-style: italic; ">ti-lya
ãulya,</i><i> </i>first finger, fore-finger. [<b>ti, </b>< PTB
*<b>t(y)ik</b> ‘one’]. </p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><br></p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst">Also, note that Kavita Rastogi recorded Raji/Rawat <i>ginta </i>'first' and Shree Krishnan recorded <i>ginta </i>'before' and <i>ginta-ko </i>'first'. </p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst">I can't speak to Raji/Rawat <i>ginta </i>'first' since I didn't record it... but comparatively, Raute has <b>giŋ </b>and this might correlate with Raji/Rawat 'first/before' and/or items from Tibetan, Tangut, etc. being mentioned by others..</p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst">
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<!--StartFragment--><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><b>giŋ, gɛŋ </b>RT <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal">n. </i>long ago, before, past time, old (of things), ancient. Rautes
talked about some stories being <b>giŋ</b><span style="mso-bidi-font-weight:
bold">, meaning stories from long ago.</span> [<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal">cf. </i>ST *<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">(s-)niŋ </i>‘in past
time, formerly’; <i>cf. also </i>PTB<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"> *r-ga </i>‘old’]<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">. see also</i> <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">ma-rey<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<!--EndFragment--></p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst">Best,</p><div>Jana Fortier</div><div><br></div>
<!--EndFragment--></div><div><br><div><div>On Dec 18, 2014, at 3:43 AM, Guillaume Jacques wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">In some Rgyalrongic languages and in Tangut, "one" as a free numeral and "one" as a numeral prefix in classifiers are expressed by different roots:<div><br></div><div>Stau e-(fku) "one (year)" vs ru "one" (<*rik)</div><div>Tangut .a-(kjiw) "one (year)" vs lew "one" </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>In Tibetan we have <i>gang </i>"one" in the same kind of contexts as <i>bleng </i>in Kurtöp. It is, in my view, derived from the verb <i>gang </i>'be full', the anticausative of '<i>gengs</i>, <i>bkang </i>'to fill' (note also the adjective <i>gang.po</i> "entire, complete')</div><div><br></div><div>A potential etymology for <i>bleng</i> would be along the same lines, a noun or adjective meaning 'full, complete', then reanalyzed as a numeral "one" when used with mass nouns (a bit like English hand > "a handfull"). There is in Tibetan a possible cognate <i>byings.po</i> "complete", which comes from *blyings, a shown by the word family relationship with <i>lings.po</i> "complete", see :</div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://www.academia.edu/2261557/The_laterals_in_Tibetan">https://www.academia.edu/2261557/The_laterals_in_Tibetan</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>Kurtöp -eng regulalry corresponds to Tibetan -ing in the inherited vocabulary (this is the result of Dempsey's law, see:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://eprints.soas.ac.uk/18336/1/Hill%202014%20Dempsey%20exceptions.pdf">http://eprints.soas.ac.uk/18336/1/Hill%202014%20Dempsey%20exceptions.pdf</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>Guillaume<br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2014-12-17 11:24 GMT+01:00 Gwendolyn Hyslop <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com" target="_blank">gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com</a>></span>:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Dear Colleagues,<div><br></div><div>Many thanks for such insightful responses! This is all very interesting and Norihiko-san and Randy's comments put an interesting spin on things and give me much to think about. If Randy -- or anyone else -- has more details about the systems or forms in other Tibeto-Burman languages I would be quite interested in references or details. I'm especially wondering if there there any cognates out there for <i>bleng</i> and <i>gwâ</i> (alternates with <i>gwak</i>, so probably the more original form would be <i>gwak</i>).</div><div><br></div><div>Gwen</div><div><div class="h5"><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Dec 17, 2014, at 2:30 PM, HAYASHI NORIHIKO wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span>I should add some information on Japanese.</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div>After posting the last email, I realized my information is somewhat misleading.</div><div>The Japanese originated classifiers usually co-occur with the Japanese numerals under 'four'.</div><div>If you wish to say 'five bags' or 'six bags', we usually use Kango numerals like 'go-hukuro' [five<CH>-CLF<J>], 'rop-pukuro' [six<CH>-CLF<J>].</div><div><br></div><div>So, the native numeral in Japanese can be considered to be in limited use.</div><div><br></div><div>Norihiko</div><div><br><blockquote style="border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px; position: static; z-index: auto; "> <div style="font-family:'MS PGothic',sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> <div style="font-family:'MS PGothic',sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"> ----- Original Message -----<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> HAYASHI NORIHIKO <<a href="mailto:jinozu@yahoo.co.jp" target="_blank">jinozu@yahoo.co.jp</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Randy LaPolla <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" target="_blank">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>>; Gwendolyn Lowes Hyslop <<a href="mailto:gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com" target="_blank">gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com</a>> <br><b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> The Tibeto-Burman Discussion List Discussion List <<a href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Date:</span></b> 2014/12/17, Wed 10:20<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Tibeto-burman-linguistics] A question about numerals<br> </font> </div> <br><div><div style="font-family:'MS PGothic',sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Hello! Gwen-san and all!</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span>I think it is interesting to note that the numerals in Bhutanese languages also have</span></div><div><span>two-way systems, one of which is borrowed from other language sources, </span><span style="font-size:12pt">as Prof. LaPolla said</span><span style="font-size:12pt">.</span></div><div><span>In Modern Japanese, we generally use two-way system when counting from one to ten, </span></div><div><span>and if the classifier is Japanese origin, the numeral should be also Japanese origin in general.</span></div><div><span>If the classifier is Kango (Chinese) origin, the numeral should be also Chinese origin.</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div>'one' iti <CH>/ hito <J></div><div>'two' ni <CH>/ huta <span style="font-size:12pt"> <J></span></div><div>'three' san <CH>/ mi
<J></div><div>.....</div><div>'ten' zyuu <CH>/ too <J></div><div><br></div><div>'a piece of paper' iti-mai [one<CH>-CLF<CH>]</div><div>'a bag' hito-hukuro [one<J>-CLF<J>]</div><div><br></div><div>Over 'ten', we generally use Kango originated numerals, though we used to have Japanese ones in former days.</div><div><br></div><div>In Standard Thai, there are two kinds of 'one' and 'two', though their features are not similar to Japanese.</div><div>The word for 'one' is nWng (Low tone) and for 'two' is sOOng (Rising tone).</div><div>There are, however, the other words for 'one' and 'two', namely, et (Low tone) and yii (Falling tone) respectively.</div><div>Et is used for 'twenty-one', 'thirty-one', ..., 'ninety-one', and yii is used for 'twenty', 'twenty-one', 'twenty-two', ... 'twenty-nine'.</div><div>Both of them are Chinese
origins as well as sOOng for 'two'.</div><div><br></div><div>So, I think Kurtop system is somewhat similar to Japanese one rather than Thai.</div><div><br></div><div>All the best,</div><div><br></div><div>Norihiko</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin-left:5px;margin-top:5px;padding-left:5px"> <div style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> <div style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"> ----- Original Message -----<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Randy LaPolla <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" target="_blank">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Gwendolyn Lowes Hyslop <<a href="mailto:gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com" target="_blank">gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com</a>> <br><b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> The
Tibeto-Burman Discussion List Discussion List <<a href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Date:</span></b> 2014/12/17, Wed 09:21<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Tibeto-burman-linguistics] A question about numerals<br> </font> </div> <br><div>Hi Gwen,<div>This is actually found in a number of languages in the family, though I don't have access to the information right now. It often implies there was a native system that was replaced by a borrowed one, as in Japanese and Thai.</div><div><br></div><div>Randy</div><div><br><div><div>On 17 Dec, 2014, at 7:08 am, Gwendolyn Hyslop <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com" target="_blank">gwendolyn.hyslop@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Dear Tibeto-Burmanists,<div><br></div><div>In most languages of Bhutan I have looked at, I have found special forms of the numbers 'one' and 'two' for measurement contexts. For example, Kurtöp 'one' and 'two' are <i>thê</i> and <i>zon</i> unless counting things like containers (<i>bre, phuya, </i>etc.) of grain, points in archery, distance measured by fingers, hands, bodies, etc. In those contexts 'one' and 'two' are <i>bleng</i> and <i>gwâ</i>. I believe a similar system is also in Tibetan as well as in other Bhutanese languages, although the forms do not appear to be cognate (Dzongkha <i>g'ang</i> and <i>d'o, </i>for example)<i>.</i> Although it is not exactly the same sort of system, I am also reminded of the difference between the two Mandarin words for 'two<i>'. (er2</i> and
<i>liang3</i>)</div><div><br></div><div>So, my question to you: how widespread is this? Is it just a Tibetan/Bhutan thing or is it more widespread than this?</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Gwen</div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Tibeto-burman-linguistics mailing list<br><a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:Tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/tibeto-burman-linguistics" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/tibeto-burman-linguistics</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Tibeto-burman-linguistics mailing list<br><a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:Tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br><a rel="nofollow" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/tibeto-burman-linguistics" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/tibeto-burman-linguistics</a><br><br><br> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> </div></div><br><br> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature">Guillaume Jacques<br>CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO<br><a href="http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques" target="_blank">http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques</a><br><div><a href="http://himalco.hypotheses.org/" target="_blank">http://himalco.hypotheses.org/</a></div><div><a href="http://panchr.hypotheses.org/" target="_blank">http://panchr.hypotheses.org/</a></div></div>
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<div><div>Jana Fortier<br>Lecturer<br>Dept of Anthropology -0532<br>UCSD<br>La Jolla, CA 92093-0532<br><br><br></div><div>Jana Fortier</div><div><a href="mailto:jxfortier@gmail.com">jxfortier@gmail.com</a></div><div><a href="mailto:jfortier@ucsd.edu">jfortier@ucsd.edu</a></div></div><div><br></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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