<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi Nathan,<div class="">It might differ with different groups. For example, using the ethnic term Kachin to refer to the language Jinghpaw, as was done in the past, is problematic because there are people who are classified as Kachin but whose native language is not Jinghpaw. In China speakers of many different languages were lumped together under a single name (e.g. “Zang”, usually translated as “Tibetan”, but not what the Tibetans call themselves, and includes people who don’t speak Tibetan, such as the majority of Qiang speakers; see <span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -14.2pt;" class="">Poa, Dory & LaPolla, Randy J. 2007. Minority languages of China. In
Osahito Miyaoka and Michael E. Krauss (eds.), </span><i style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -14.2pt;" class="">The Vanishing Languages of the Pacific</i><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -14.2pt;" class="">, 337-354. Oxford: Oxford
University Press.</span><span lang="EN-AU" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: -14.2pt; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: -14.2pt;" class=""><span lang="EN-AU" style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-ansi-language:EN-AU;mso-fareast-language:
ZH-CN" class=""><a href="http://randylapolla.net/papers/Poa_and_LaPolla_2007_Minority_Languages_of_China.pdf" class="">http://randylapolla.net/papers/Poa_and_LaPolla_2007_Minority_Languages_of_China.pdf</a></span></span>), so it is important to distinguish the ethnic name from the language name in some cases.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">All the best,</div><div class="">Randy</div><div class="">PS: interestingly, some of the Qiang speaking Zang are now trying to have their own name for their language and people recognised as the name of the language in Chinese, because they aren’t comfortable calling it Qiang (as they are not classified as Qiang any more), yet can’t call it Tibetan.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 23 Jan 2017, at 9:51 AM, Nathan & Carey Statezni <<a href="mailto:nathan_statezni@sil.org" class="">nathan_statezni@sil.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><span class="gmail-im" style="font-size:12.8px"><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span style="font-size:12pt" class="">Hi Alec and all,</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class=""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span style="font-size:12pt" class="">I appreciate very much your work on these languages, Alec, and your effort to keep Ethnologue updated on the status of classification.</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class=""></span></p><div style="line-height: normal; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><span style="font-size:12pt" class=""> </span><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class=""></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></span><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span style="font-size:12pt" class="">It would be fine with me to drop the label "Naga" from linguistic classifications; it's quite confusing. I’m particularly concerned about the language group perspective for changes made, but it's typically not a big deal for language family and branch, etc. names to change, as long as the new name doesn't seem to favor one group. </span><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class=""></span></p><div style="font-size: 12.8px; line-height: normal; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><span style="font-size:12pt" class=""> </span><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class=""></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span style="font-size:12pt" class="">However, language names are another matter. Language names are not linguistic - they're social. Ethnologue’s use of Chin and Naga in language names is not a classification tool but a reflection of the group’s own socio-ethnic grouping. It’s part of their language’s name and identity.</span></p><div style="font-size: 12.8px; line-height: normal; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><span style="font-size:12pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span style="font-size:12pt" class="">If it were decided to remove Naga from all the names, that would not thus mean that the groups don't refer to themselves as Naga. We would at least need a comment that this language group identifies itself as part of a socio-ethnic group called the Naga. Should Chin then be removed from all names as well? What about Karen? Where do we stop? What is our criterion for including or not including it? Ethnologue doesn't typically include branch names in the language names. However, it does include socio-ethnic group names where those are salient, as is the case for these 3 groupings. </span><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class=""></span></p><div style="font-size: 12.8px; line-height: normal; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><span style="font-size:12pt" class=""> </span><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class=""></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span style="font-size:12pt" class="">I think we would also need to hear more from these communities. In the pre-internet days, very few community members had access to the Ethnologue. Now, communities regularly access it and even use it in usually good ways to get recognition and promote their people. On the Myanmar side at least, Naga, Chin, and Karen identity is salient. People I've talked to want to have Naga/Chin/Karen in their name, even for groups like Chin, Anu-Hkongso, which isn't a Kuki-Chin language.</span></p><div style="font-size: 12.8px; line-height: normal;" class=""><span style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(80,0,80);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial" class=""> </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"times new roman",serif;color:rgb(80,0,80);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial" class=""></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(80,0,80);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial" class="">It would also be helpful to hear from Michael or others about how similar issues have been handled in the Ethnologue for other parts of the world.</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"times new roman",serif;color:rgb(80,0,80);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial" class=""></span></p><div class="gmail-yj6qo gmail-ajU" style="font-size:12.8px"><div id="gmail-:5x6" class="gmail-ajR" tabindex="0"><img class="gmail-ajT" src="https://ssl.gstatic.com/ui/v1/icons/mail/images/cleardot.gif" style="opacity: 0.3;"></div></div><div class="gmail-adL" style="font-size:12.8px"><span class="gmail-im"><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span style="font-size:12pt" class="">My wife is due to have a baby any day now, so if I'm not able to respond for awhile, that's why! :)</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class=""></span></p><div style="line-height: normal; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span style="font-size:12pt" class="">Thanks,</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class=""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span style="font-size:12pt" class="">Nathan</span></p></span></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><span class="">On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 5:45 PM, Alexander Coupe <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:ARCoupe@ntu.edu.sg" target="_blank" class="">ARCoupe@ntu.edu.sg</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""></span><div class=""><div class="h5"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<div class="">Dear Nathan and colleagues,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I believe it is time to drop the label “Naga" from any linguistic classification, because is will continue to mislead non-specialists into assuming that these "Naga" languages of Myanmar and the so-called "Naga" languages of northern, central and southern
Nagaland and adjacent regions of Assam, Arunachal Pradesh and Manipur somehow form a robustly attested branch of Sino-Tibetan. The term “Naga” has become an important political tool for helping to establish an ethno-nationalistic identity for disparate and
marginalized minorities in the northeastern border region, but it lacks credibility as a linguistic label. This is because we currently know that it includes at least 2 and possibly even 3 or 4 more separate branches – subgrouping is still a work in progress,
and we just don’t have enough reliable descriptions at present to make any strong claims beyond Burling's (1983) Sal branch. I have been campaigning for a revision in naming conventions for these languages in recent publications, and also consulting with
Ethnologue to address the currently misleading nature of “Naga” nomenclature (e.g. see <a href="https://www.ethnologue.com/language/nsa/feedback" target="_blank" class="">https://www.ethnologue.com<wbr class="">/language/nsa/feedback</a>). Ethnologue is currently considering adopting a number
of these recommendations, so following suit with similar naming conventions for the languages of Myanmar would be consistent with the revisions. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Best,</div>
<div class="">Alec</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<span id="m_4905187143552279656m_-7920339202139043261OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class="">
<div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt; text-align: left; border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);" class="">
<span style="font-weight:bold" class="">From: </span>Tibeto-burman-linguistics <<a href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" class="">tibeto-burman-linguistics-bou<wbr class="">nces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><wbr class="">> on behalf of Nathan & Carey Statezni <<a href="mailto:nathan_statezni@sil.org" target="_blank" class="">nathan_statezni@sil.org</a>><br class="">
<span style="font-weight:bold" class="">Date: </span>Thursday, 19 January 2017 at 6:09 PM<br class="">
<span style="font-weight:bold" class="">To: </span>"<a href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank" class="">tibeto-burman-linguistics@LIS<wbr class="">TSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>" <<a href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank" class="">tibeto-burman-linguistics@LIS<wbr class="">TSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>><br class="">
<span style="font-weight:bold" class="">Subject: </span>[Tibeto-burman-linguistics] Changes to Myanmar Naga group names in Ethnologue<br class="">
</div><div class=""><div class="m_4905187143552279656h5">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">Hi all,</div>
<div class="">I'm proposing changes to the name in the Ethnologue for some Naga groups in Myanmar, to match their own name for themselves and the spelling used in their orthographies, based on discussions with these groups. Here are my proposed changes (all the current
names would become alternate names): Any thoughts?<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Makyan Naga [umn] becomes Paungnyuan Naga</div>
<div class="">Kyan-Karyaw Naga [nqq] becomes Chen-Kayu Naga</div>
<div class="">Leinong Naga [lzn] becomes Lainong Naga </div>
<div class="">Kokak [nxk] becomes Kokak Naga (for consistency with the other Naga group names)</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">By the way, all Ethnologue updates need to be in by January each year. The new edition comes out on February 21 each year, International Mother Language Day.<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Nathan</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></span>
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</blockquote></div></div></div><br class=""></div>
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