<div dir="auto">Lots of good thoughts here. I'll try to respond soon. For now, let me announce one more Ethnologue name change made in consultation with members of the community and Stephen Morey. <div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">[nst] will change from Tase Naga to </div><div dir="auto">In India: Tangsa Naga</div><div dir="auto">In Myanmar: Tangshang Naga</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Tase is the Kimsing/Cyamcyang subtribe's pronunciation of Tangsa, and is not the normal name for the group. We have wanted to make the change for some time, but it has been complicated to sort out because the names used are different in each country.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">We ran out of time to make any changes to use of Naga/Chin/Karen in this year's Ethnologue, since the discussion began only recently and tonight is the deadline, but I hope we can make further headway in future months for next year's edition.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Thanks,</div><div dir="auto">Nathan</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Feb 2, 2017 9:18 PM, "Chris Button" <<a href="mailto:chris.button@hotmail.com">chris.button@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div id="m_4499015848024910797divtagdefaultwrapper" style="font-size:12pt;color:#000000;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" dir="ltr">
<p>Hi all,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>@Abel - yes Dutch and Deutsch come from the same root just like Zo(u) and Sho/Cho/Hyo etc..... The point is that German and Deutsch are completely unrelated words with the same referent - crudely analogous to Kuki and Chin. Returning to the Deutsch/Dutch
remark, the fact that we now use the unrelated word "German" (or a possible variant of it) in English only in reference to the Deutsch but not the Dutch (even though the Dutch were to a greater or lesser extent part of "Germania") shows how such things are
not logical or consistent anywhere but dependent on a variety of factors.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>@Scott - Thado speakers in Chin state often refer to themselves as Thado-Kuki as well simply because the vast majority of them live on the Kuki side and so their affinity is split between their counterparts in India (as Kuki) versus their geographical location
in Burma (as Chin).</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>@Nathan, Scott, Randy - If for example a group of people speaking a language traditionally classified as "Old Kuki" that is clearly related to other Chin languages identify themselves as "Naga" for whatever reason, then surely any entry for them should retain
the term Naga as appropriate but then caveat it with a comment that this refers to a political/geographical identification rather than a linguistic one? That way anyone interested will be able to find the language in a database like ethnologue but will also
be left in no doubt as to its specific affiliation.<br>
</p>
<br>
<p>All the best,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Chris<br>
</p>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id="m_4499015848024910797divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Tibeto-burman-linguistics <<a href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">tibeto-burman-linguistics-<wbr>bounces@listserv.linguistlist.<wbr>org</a>> on behalf of Abel Zadoks <<a href="mailto:a.zadoks@gmail.com" target="_blank">a.zadoks@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 2, 2017 7:45 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Randy J. LaPolla<br>
<b>Cc:</b> The Tibeto-Burman Discussion List Discussion List; Michael Ahland<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tibeto-burman-linguistics] Changes to Myanmar Naga group names in Ethnologue</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">correction, "rather <u>than</u> simply saying"
<div><br>
</div>
<div>and agree with Randy.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 2 February 2017 at 13:38, Abel Zadoks <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:a.zadoks@gmail.com" target="_blank">a.zadoks@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">hi all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. The relation between English <i>Dutch</i> and German <i>Deutsch</i> </div>
<div>(or older Dutch <i>Diets</i>, for that matter) is not an "example of confusion"</div>
<div>but just reflects the same etymon 'people', also seen in <i>teutonic</i>.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2. If peoples in NW India and Burma self-identify as such,</div>
<div>then that is (one of) their autnonym(s), even if newly applied, </div>
<div>and hence not necessarily wrong.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Of course one needs to disambiguate for linguistics</div>
<div>but I think it's worthwhile to distinguish between such matters</div>
<div>rather simply saying "they are wrong!"</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>best, Abel</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="m_4499015848024910797HOEnZb">
<div class="m_4499015848024910797h5">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 2 February 2017 at 13:23, Randy J. LaPolla <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" target="_blank">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Hi Nathan,<span>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px">
<div>Another question, though, might be, "What group do you call yourself with people outside of Northeast India?" Perhaps they would still call themselves Chang or Tangkhul. At a national level in Myanmar, however, people first answer that they are "Naga"
or "Chin”.</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>Just to point out again that we are talking about language names, not ethnic group names. My Rawang friends have no trouble calling themselves Kachin in certain contexts, just as they would call themselves Burmese in certain contexts, but would never talk
about their language as Kachin or Burmese.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All the best,</div>
<div>Randy</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div><span class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052m_3673893542153435888Apple-style-span" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white">-----</span></span>
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052m_3673893542153435888Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052m_3673893542153435888Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px"><span class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052m_3673893542153435888Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px">
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white"><b>Prof. Randy J. LaPolla, PhD FAHA</b> （羅</span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white;font-size:13px"><font class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052m_3673893542153435888Apple-style-span" face="Song">仁地</font></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white">）|
Division of Linguistics and Multilingual Studies | Nanyang Technological University</span><span class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052m_3673893542153435888Apple-style-span" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br>
<span style="background-color:white">HSS-03-45, 14 Nanyang Drive, Singapore 637332</span></span></span><span class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052m_3673893542153435888Apple-style-span" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="background-color:white"> | </span></span><span class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052m_3673893542153435888Apple-style-span" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span style="background-color:white">Tel:
(65) 6592-1825 GMT+8h | Fax: (65) 6795-6525 | <a href="http://randylapolla.net/" target="_blank">
http://randylapolla.net/</a></span></span></span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<span class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052m_3673893542153435888Apple-style-span" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span style="background-color:white">Most recent
book:</span></span></span></div>
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="background-color:white"><font color="#222222" face="Arial, sans-serif" size="2"><a href="https://www.routledge.com/The-Sino-Tibetan-Languages-2nd-Edition/LaPolla-Thurgood/p/book/9781138783324" target="_blank">https://www.routledge.com/The-<wbr>Sino-Tibetan-Languages-2nd-Edi<wbr>tion/LaPolla-Thurgood/p/book/9<wbr>781138783324</a></font></span></div>
</span></span></div>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052m_3673893542153435888Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052m_3673893542153435888Apple-interchange-newline">
<br class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052m_3673893542153435888Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052h5">
<div>On 2 Feb 2017, at 6:03 PM, Nathan & Carey Statezni <<a href="mailto:nathan_statezni@sil.org" target="_blank">nathan_statezni@sil.org</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052m_3673893542153435888Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052h5">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>In making a very cursory look at some databases, I see:</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li>Referring to language names in individual articles, other publications - many omit Naga, Chin, Karen</li><li>WALS - Naga, Chin used for only a few languages - Zeme, Mao, Tangkhul; Mara, Tiddim, Siyin (but not Haka); Karen used for most included groups (Sgaw, Bwe, Pwo)<br>
</li><li>Glottolog - seems to follow ISO 639-3 name<br>
</li><li>ISO 639-3 - 48 groups with Naga in name; 33 Chin; 16 Karen </li><li>Ethnologue - 48 Naga; 30 Chin; 10 Karen</li></ul>
</div>
<div>I appreciate Temsu's sharing here and others sharing from their experiences on the India side. It sounds like determining whether a particular language group identifies as Naga or not Naga might be less clear on the India side. Is that true? The Naga and
Chin linguists I know from Myanmar all want Naga and Chin to remain included as they are. Perhaps the names should be kept in Myanmar but omitted in India? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Many people mentioned that in the local context, there isn't a felt need to include "Naga" in the name. Another question, though, might be, "What group do you call yourself with people outside of Northeast India?" Perhaps they would still call themselves
Chang or Tangkhul. At a national level in Myanmar, however, people first answer that they are "Naga" or "Chin". Only those who really care ask them which Naga or Chin group they are. In a global database, it helps at least the uninitiated reader to find groups
if labels like Naga and Chin, which are quite salient in Myanmar, are included.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>While it's true that Chin, Naga, and Karen are later constructs, as many noted many/most of the Naga and Chin language group names themselves are also recent constructs. The village name is often the most basic name. Names are identity tools, whether at
the language level or at the larger grouping level. Inclusion of the larger grouping in a database helps in locating languages.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm not suggesting that people have to use Naga, Chin, or Karen in their own publications. And I'm certainly not suggesting they be used for classification purposes, especially Naga. I'm just suggesting that they be kept in the Ethnologue names. I've personally
encountered that non-linguist (and especially Myanmar) readers of the Ethnologue appreciate these labels for locating languages. As I wrote before, these are not classificational, but represent socio-ethnic grouping.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Other thoughts?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Nathan<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Inclusion of Naga and Chin adds these groups to the The Chin political leaders would particularly object.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It sounds like there are some consistency issues with the use of Naga in the name for languages of India. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sorry for my slow reply. Getting caught up on emails with the new baby. I almost named him "Keep Naga" but my wife wouldn't let me. :)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nathan</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052h5">On Sun, Jan 29, 2017 at 8:35 PM, Chris Button
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:chris.button@hotmail.com" target="_blank">chris.button@hotmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div id="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052m_3673893542153435888m_6017622807508037930divtagdefaultwrapper" dir="ltr" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<div>
<div class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052h5">
<p>I should probably also mention that F.K. Lehman has proposed an original source in Southern Chin for the Old/Inscriptional Burmese form "khlang" of "Chin". If correct, this would technically mean that "Chin" is not an exonym, although the form in which it
is used now (through what would then be re-appropriation of sorts) does comes from Burmese.</p>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
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<font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Scott DeLancey <<a href="mailto:delancey@uoregon.edu" target="_blank">delancey@uoregon.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, January 28, 2017 10:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Chris Button<span><br>
<b>Cc:</b> The Tibeto-Burman Discussion List Discussion List<br>
</span>
<div>
<div class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052m_3673893542153435888h5"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tibeto-burman-linguistics] Changes to Myanmar Naga group names in Ethnologue</div>
</div>
</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
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<div>
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<div class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052h5">
<p>True AFAIK that Kuki, like Chin, is originally an exonym. But it certainly doesn't have that status now. Some communities quite aggressively consider themselves Kuki, as evidenced by the names of their insurgent independence movements (Kuki Liberation Front,
Kuki Liberation Army, United Kuki Liberation Front, etc.). There is an active debate within the Thadou (Kuki) community about whether their language should be referred to as "Thadou" or "Thadou-Kuki", with the latter favored by the more autonomy-minded elements.</p>
<p>On 2017-01-27 22:35, Chris Button wrote:</p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0 0.4em;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin:0">
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<p>"Kuki-Chin" is a pretty interesting term itself since it is tautological. A crude comparison would be saying something like <span style="font-size:12pt">"Deutsch-German". The fact that "Deutsch" actually corresponds to "Dutch" in English provides some insight
into how names can get so confused. </span><span style="font-size:12pt">"Chin" of course comes via Written Burmese "Khyang" from Inscriptional Burmese "Khlang"; Kuki is apparently Manipuri in origin (although I would love to know more about this if anyone
knows). </span></p>
<div><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span><br class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052m_3673893542153435888webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
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<p><span style="font-size:12pt">As with many groups, "Kuki-Chin" is an exonym (or rather two different exonyms sometimes combined as one) with the people often preferring to call themselves something entirely different. In the north, the name used is "Zo" or
"Zou" depending on transliteration. This seems to work relatively well with some minor variations like Thado tending to </span><span style="font-size:12pt">pronounce </span><span style="font-size:12pt">the "z" as a post-alveolar fricative (the "z" originally
comes from yod </span><span style="font-size:12pt">*j-). However, in the South we get transliterations like "H</span><span style="font-size:12pt">yo", "Sho", "Cho", "Khxo" etc. While these are relatively inconsequential (of the "Kayin / Karen", "Bombay / Mumbai"
nature), it can cause problems with people properly identifying with a word written "Zo". If you have ever needed an argument not to use an alphabetic/phonemic orthography, then this is it </span><span id="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052m_3673893542153435888cid:1485660482588d6142896e5910911677@uoregon.edu"><OutlookEmoji-.png></span><span style="font-size:12pt">. </span></p>
<div>
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<div><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span><br class="m_4499015848024910797m_-4121769333780010052m_3673893542153435888webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt">Even more confusing (<span style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji',NotoColorEmoji,'Segoe UI Symbol','Android Emoji',EmojiSymbols;font-size:16px">although entirely as one would
expect and </span>tying into Randy's comment about "Kachin" and "Jinghpaw"), the word "Zo" does not just refer to the Kuki-Chin people but is also used in many names of Kuki-Chin languages and in one case is used completely unchanged. To give some examples:
The "Zo" language (closely related to Tedim) is spoken by a limited number of "Zo" people while the rest of the "Zo" people speak all the other Kuki-Chin languages; the name "Mizo" (for the language a.k.a Lushai/Lusei or Hualngo) literally means "people (of)
Zo" and is but a variant of the term "Zomi" literally meaning "Zo people" (the former refers to a specific group/language; the latter is commonly used to refer to all Zo people as in "The Zomi Baptist Convention" which has apparently recently become "The
Chin Baptist Convention"); Laizo (literally "Middle Zo") is a distinct language from "Lai" allowing a theoretical distinction between a "Laizo" and a "Lai Zo"....... I could go on. S</span><span style="font-size:12pt">uffice to say that it is best to let people
call themselves what they want, and when writing about any people or language just be explicitly clear to what people or language you are referring.</span></p>
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</div>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt">Chris</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><strong>From:</strong> Tibeto-burman-linguistics <<a href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">tibeto-burman-linguistics-bou<wbr>nces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><wbr>>
on behalf of Scott DeLancey <<a href="mailto:delancey@uoregon.edu" target="_blank">delancey@uoregon.edu</a>><br>
<strong>Sent:</strong> Thursday, January 26, 2017 9:05 AM<br>
<strong>To:</strong> Alexander Coupe<br>
<strong>Cc:</strong> The Tibeto-Burman Discussion List Discussion List; Michael Ahland; Chuck Fennig<br>
<strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [Tibeto-burman-linguistics] Changes to Myanmar Naga group names in Ethnologue</span>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<p>I spend a good bit of time in southeastern Manipur among speakers of languages which Ethnologue labels "Monsang Naga", "Anal Naga", etc. And while all the communities are indubitably Naga, and quite assertive about it, I have never heard anyone refer to
any of the languages that way -- they are simply "Monsang" etc. (They do, however, object vociferously to hearing their languages called "Old Kuki", which is where they fall in terms of genetic classification. We are now replacing that term with "Northwest
Kuki-Chin", which is still not popular but at least doesn't make people visibly angry).</p>
<p>Scott DeLancey</p>
<p>On 2017-01-26 12:45, Alexander Coupe wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="padding:0 0.4em;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin:0">
<div> </div>
<div>Dear all,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It is certainly important to have the input of the communities involved, so I asked my collaborator Dr T. Temsunungsang for his opinion on the issue, as he is ethnically Ao, a Naga, a Mongsen Ao speaker, and a linguist. He is currently not subscribed to
the TB discussion list, so with his permission I have shared his response with list members below:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Hi Alec,
<div dir="auto">Interesting discussion there. For the Aos, i believe identity starts from the village. So, in the past, if you ask what language an Ao speaks, most probably you would get the village name. But after standardisation, it has become Ao for most
speakers. I think this is true for the other tribes as well. Hence, the word Naga has no role in the linguistic identity. In recent times, we have started using Aoo (Ao language) to refer to the language. A similar case with Poumai, using Poula (language
of the Poumais). </div>
<div dir="auto">But as you have mentioned, the word Naga has a very strong political and culture related attachment to the people. </div>
<div dir="auto">I agree with you that linguists should stop using the word Naga for linguistic affiliation. It mixes up separate fields, leading to misuse and abuse. </div>
<div dir="auto">And perhaps Ethnologue can start this process by removing Naga from all the language names!</div>
<div dir="auto">Best</div>
<div dir="auto">Temsü</div>
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<div> </div>
<div>While I appreciate the points made in previous posts concerning the potential social ramifications of using particular labels, as linguists we need to distinguish clearly between using labels for social or political identities, and using labels for linguistic
affiliations. They do not necessarily coincide, so why contribute to the confusion by continuing to pretend that they do in our classifications? This logically applies to our choice of labels not only at the individual language level, but also at the group
level. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Alec</div>
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<div style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Tibeto-burman-linguistics <<a href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">tibeto-burman-linguistics-bou<wbr>nces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><wbr>> on behalf of Judy
Pine <<a href="mailto:Judy.Pine@wwu.edu" target="_blank">Judy.Pine@wwu.edu</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Wednesday, 25 January 2017 at 8:55 PM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>Randy LaPolla <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" target="_blank">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>>, Nathan & Carey Statezni <<a href="mailto:nathan_statezni@sil.org" target="_blank">nathan_statezni@sil.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>"<a href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">tibeto-burman-linguistics@LIS<wbr>TSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>" <<a href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">tibeto-burman-linguistics@LIS<wbr>TSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>>,
Michael Ahland <<a href="mailto:michael_ahland@sil.org" target="_blank">michael_ahland@sil.org</a>>, Chuck Fennig <<a href="mailto:editor_ethnologue@sil.org" target="_blank">editor_ethnologue@sil.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Tibeto-burman-linguistics] Changes to Myanmar Naga group names in Ethnologue</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">It is also useful to note that Karen is an ethnonym given the groups who find themselves under it by Tai speaking dominant groups. Although many have since adopted it for
the purpose of political organization, it is not their name for themselves traditionally, nor is it the name they give to the various languages/dialects that fall under that umbrella (I speak here having just left a Pa keun yaw (pardon my on-the-fly Romanization)
village that the Thai would call Karieng and we would call Karen.)</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif"><span>-<span style="font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:'Times New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">Judy Pine</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif"> Tibeto-burman-linguistics [<a href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">mailto:tibeto-burman-linguist<wbr>ics-bounces@listserv.linguistl<wbr>ist.org</a>]
<strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Randy J. LaPolla<br>
<strong>Sent:</strong> Tuesday, January 24, 2017 7:24 AM<br>
<strong>To:</strong> Nathan & Carey Statezni <<a href="mailto:nathan_statezni@sil.org" target="_blank">nathan_statezni@sil.org</a>><br>
<strong>Cc:</strong> The Tibeto-Burman Discussion List Discussion List <<a href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">tibeto-burman-linguistics@lis<wbr>tserv.linguistlist.org</a>>; Michael Ahland <<a href="mailto:michael_ahland@sil.org" target="_blank">michael_ahland@sil.org</a>>;
Chuck Fennig <<a href="mailto:editor_ethnologue@sil.org" target="_blank">editor_ethnologue@sil.org</a>><br>
<strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [Tibeto-burman-linguistics] Changes to Myanmar Naga group names in Ethnologue</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Nathan,</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It might differ with different groups. For example, using the ethnic term Kachin to refer to the language Jinghpaw, as was done in the past, is problematic because there are people who are classified as Kachin but whose native language
is not Jinghpaw. In China speakers of many different languages were lumped together under a single name (e.g. "Zang", usually translated as "Tibetan", but not what the Tibetans call themselves, and includes people who don't speak Tibetan, such as the majority
of Qiang speakers; see Poa, Dory & LaPolla, Randy J. 2007. Minority languages of China. In Osahito Miyaoka and Michael E. Krauss (eds.),
<em>The Vanishing Languages of the Pacific</em>, 337-354. Oxford: Oxford University Press.<span> </span><span><a href="http://randylapolla.net/papers/Poa_and_LaPolla_2007_Minority_Languages_of_China.pdf" target="_blank">http://randylapolla.ne<wbr>t/papers/Poa_and_LaPolla_2007_<wbr>Minority_Languages_of_China.pd<wbr>f</a></span>),
so it is important to distinguish the ethnic name from the language name in some cases.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">All the best,</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Randy</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">PS: interestingly, some of the Qiang speaking Zang are now trying to have their own name for their language and people recognised as the name of the language in Chinese, because they aren't comfortable calling it Qiang (as they are not
classified as Qiang any more), yet can't call it Tibetan.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 23 Jan 2017, at 9:51 AM, Nathan & Carey Statezni <<a href="mailto:nathan_statezni@sil.org" target="_blank">nathan_statezni@sil.org</a>> wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Alec and all,<span style="font-size:9.5pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I appreciate very much your work on these languages, Alec, and your effort to keep Ethnologue updated on the status of classification.<span style="font-size:9.5pt"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It would be fine with me to drop the label "Naga" from linguistic classifications; it's quite confusing. I'm particularly concerned about the language group perspective for changes made, but it's typically not a big deal for language family
and branch, etc. names to change, as long as the new name doesn't seem to favor one group. <span style="font-size:9.5pt"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">However, language names are another matter. Language names are not linguistic - they're social. Ethnologue's use of Chin and Naga in language names is not a classification tool but a reflection of the group's own socio-ethnic grouping.
It's part of their language's name and identity.<span style="font-size:9.5pt"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If it were decided to remove Naga from all the names, that would not thus mean that the groups don't refer to themselves as Naga. We would at least need a comment that this language group identifies itself as part of a socio-ethnic group
called the Naga. Should Chin then be removed from all names as well? What about Karen? Where do we stop? What is our criterion for including or not including it? Ethnologue doesn't typically include branch names in the language names. However, it does include
socio-ethnic group names where those are salient, as is the case for these 3 groupings. <span style="font-size:9.5pt"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think we would also need to hear more from these communities. In the pre-internet days, very few community members had access to the Ethnologue. Now, communities regularly access it and even use it in usually good ways to get recognition
and promote their people. On the Myanmar side at least, Naga, Chin, and Karen identity is salient. People I've talked to want to have Naga/Chin/Karen in their name, even for groups like Chin, Anu-Hkongso, which isn't a Kuki-Chin language.<span style="font-size:9.5pt"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#500050">It would also be helpful to hear from Michael or others about how similar issues have been handled in the Ethnologue for other parts of the world.</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">My wife is due to have a baby any day now, so if I'm not able to respond for awhile, that's why! :)<span style="font-size:9.5pt"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<span style="font-size:9.5pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nathan<span style="font-size:9.5pt"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 5:45 PM, Alexander Coupe <<a href="mailto:ARCoupe@ntu.edu.sg" target="_blank">ARCoupe@ntu.edu.sg</a>> wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">Dear Nathan and colleagues,</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">I believe it is time to drop the label "Naga" from any linguistic classification, because is will continue to mislead non-specialists into assuming that these "Naga" languages
of Myanmar and the so-called "Naga" languages of northern, central and southern Nagaland and adjacent regions of Assam, Arunachal Pradesh and Manipur somehow form a robustly attested branch of Sino-Tibetan. The term "Naga" has become an important political
tool for helping to establish an ethno-nationalistic identity for disparate and marginalized minorities in the northeastern border region, but it lacks credibility as a linguistic label. This is because we currently know that it includes at least 2 and possibly
even 3 or 4 more separate branches – subgrouping is still a work in progress, and we just don't have enough reliable descriptions at present to make any strong claims beyond Burling's (1983) Sal branch. I have been campaigning for a revision in naming conventions
for these languages in recent publications, and also consulting with Ethnologue to address the currently misleading nature of "Naga" nomenclature (e.g. see <a href="https://www.ethnologue.com/language/nsa/feedback" target="_blank">https://www.ethnologue.com<wbr>/language/nsa/feedback</a>).
Ethnologue is currently considering adopting a number of these recommendations, so following suit with similar naming conventions for the languages of Myanmar would be consistent with the revisions. </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">Best,</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">Alec</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">From:
</span></strong><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">Tibeto-burman-linguistics <<a href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">tibeto-burman-linguistics-bou<wbr>nces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><wbr>>
on behalf of Nathan & Carey Statezni <<a href="mailto:nathan_statezni@sil.org" target="_blank">nathan_statezni@sil.org</a>><br>
<strong>Date: </strong>Thursday, 19 January 2017 at 6:09 PM<br>
<strong>To: </strong>"<a href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">tibeto-burman-linguistics@LIS<wbr>TSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>" <<a href="mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">tibeto-burman-linguistics@LIS<wbr>TSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>><br>
<strong>Subject: </strong>[Tibeto-burman-linguistics] Changes to Myanmar Naga group names in Ethnologue</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">Hi all,</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">I'm proposing changes to the name in the Ethnologue for some Naga groups in Myanmar, to match their own name for themselves and the spelling used in their orthographies, based
on discussions with these groups. Here are my proposed changes (all the current names would become alternate names): Any thoughts?</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">Makyan Naga [umn] becomes Paungnyuan Naga</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">Kyan-Karyaw Naga [nqq] becomes Chen-Kayu Naga</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">Leinong Naga [lzn] becomes Lainong Naga </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">Kokak [nxk] becomes Kokak Naga (for consistency with the other Naga group names)</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">By the way, all Ethnologue updates need to be in by January each year. The new edition comes out on February 21 each year, International Mother Language Day.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">Nathan</span></p>
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