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Dear all,<br>
<br>
I am positively surprised to see, that there is already some
"traffic", though the original message has not yet made it to
Ura-List (for reasons I am unable to comment). The answer which
arrived so far were sent by colleagues as an answer to Ura-List who
got the same message bcc when I tried to post it on Ura-List; the
original message is apparently lost in cyber space. I hereby resend
the original query again. Thanks already to Michael Rießler and
Andrey Filchenko for their grass root comments which I have put down
seperately. Thanks to Marianne Bakró-Nagy and Pekka Sammallahti for
their positive approval that this step is useful.<br>
<br>
This is an exact copy of the e-mail I tried to send to Ura-list at
14:44 (Helsinki time) including the attachment. Hopefully this time,
I will go through:<br>
<br>
Florian Siegl<br>
<br>
<br>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-GB">Over
the last month, the Department of Finno-Ugric studies in
Helsinki has collected and re-evaluated existing statistical
data concerning estimated numbers of speakers (!) of individual
Uralic languages. As this data is biased, we have decided to
make our estimations available on Ura-List in order to gather
feedback and suggestions. The overall intention is NOT to
present an exact number of speakers (see also principles in the
attached file) which would result in a sanctioned list, but to
arrive at a reasonably realistic estimation which can be used e.
g. in teaching, research or PR work. Although this should not
need any further explanation, we wish to exemplify this with two
instances which demonstrate the urgency of such an endeavor; the
number of Lule Saami speakers has been estimated as roughly
1500-2000, and this number has been around for a longer period.
Recent estimations from within the Lule Saami community operate
with roughly 700 speakers only – the resulting discrepancy is
50%. A similar case is to be expected for Forest Nenets. The
number of speakers has been reported exceeding 1000 for quite a
while now, but may actually not exceed 700 when taking general
demographic trends into consideration. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-GB">Further,
several languages were once a while reported as extinct (e. g.
Livonian, Ume Saami and Pite Saami) though for all languages L1
speakers could still be found. Possibly Akkala Saami could also
be added to this list.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-GB">As
Ura-List, unfortunately, does not stimulate much online
discussion, we encourage subscribers to comment this particular
matter online. Of course, we also welcome offline comments.
These should be sent to <a
href="mailto:florian.siegl@helsinki.fi">florian.siegl@helsinki.fi</a>.
Please state on which kind of evidence your assumptions rest and
if possible provide links to further online resources, own work
etc. Please also state if we are allowed to quote your
data/assumption publicly as p. c. if this would become
necessary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-GB">A
summary will be posted on Ura-List. A more “official” mode of
representation is currently also thought of perhaps resulting in
an updated version of the 1992 map <i
style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Geographical Distribution
of the Uralic Languages</i> (then compiled by Grünthal &
Salminen). A suitable online forum is also currently debated on.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-GB">Last,
but not least, please forward this message to colleagues and
language activists who are not subscribers of Ura-List.<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-GB"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New
Roman"" lang="EN-GB">Florian Siegl<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New
Roman"" lang="EN-GB"><br>
PhD, researcher</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New
Roman"" lang="EN-GB">Department of Finnish, Finno-Ugrian
and Scandinavian Studies, <st1:address w:st="on"><st1:street
w:st="on"><br>
P.O.Box</st1:street> 24</st1:address><br>
FIN-00014 <st1:city w:st="on">University of Helsinki</st1:city><br>
Finland</span></p>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 29.10.2012 16:42, Michael Rießler
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:0CC5EB04-CEC3-4337-BA9B-5BDC785E1C91@skandinavistik.uni-freiburg.de"
type="cite">Dear all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>thank you Flo and Riho! I find this a very useful initiative.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A few notes on East-Saamic: </div>
<div>* Akkala is certainly not extinct, one speaker was recently
recorded, see <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://corpus1.mpi.nl/ds/imdi_browser?openpath=MPI1564782%23">http://corpus1.mpi.nl/ds/imdi_browser?openpath=MPI1564782%23</a>.</div>
<div>* The most reliable estimation of Kildin speakers presents
Scheller 2011 (or elsewhere): "The Saami language situation in
Russia" in: Uralica Helsingiensia 5. Scheller distinguishes
between about 100 active and 700 passive speakers. Your figure
of 350 speakers is in between these two and seems reasonable to
me.</div>
<div>* Skolt does in fact also have speakers in Norway. I
personally know two speakers who live in Neiden. They are both
fluent and active speakers, at least one of them is among the
leading revitalizers having published books in Skolt Saami and
teaching it at the school in Sevettijärvi/Finland (30km from
Neiden). I have heard about a third speaker living in Kirkenes.
Although they have only moved to Norway from the Finish side,
they have lived in Norway permanently for several (if not many)
years (both with Norwegian partners) and they continue using
Skolt Saami between each other or with other visiting Skolt
Saami. One of them is even a Norwegian citizen. Being permanent
inhabitants of Norway, living on traditional Skolt Saami
territories (in an area which was always characterized by
cross-border communication) and obviously being quite active
speakers, it seems anachronistic to exclude them from being
counted as Skolt Saami of Norway.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Michael Rießler</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dr. Michael Rießler</div>
<div>
<div>Skandinavisches Seminar, Universität Freiburg</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.skandinavistik.uni-freiburg.de/institut/mitarbeiter/riessler">www.skandinavistik.uni-freiburg.de/institut/mitarbeiter/riessler</a></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:michael.riessler@skandinavistik.uni-freiburg.de">michael.riessler@skandinavistik.uni-freiburg.de</a></div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Oct 29, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Florian Siegl wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
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charset=windows-1252">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman""
lang="EN-GB">Over the last month, the Department of
Finno-Ugric studies in Helsinki has collected and
re-evaluated existing statistical data concerning
estimated numbers of speakers (!) of individual Uralic
languages. As this data is biased, we have decided to
make our estimations available on Ura-List in order to
gather feedback and suggestions. The overall intention
is NOT to present an exact number of speakers (see
also principles in the attached file) which would
result in a sanctioned list, but to arrive at a
reasonably realistic estimation which can be used e.
g. in teaching, research or PR work. Although this
should not need any further explanation, we wish to
exemplify this with two instances which demonstrate
the urgency of such an endeavor; the number of Lule
Saami speakers has been estimated as roughly
1500-2000, and this number has been around for a
longer period. Recent estimations from within the Lule
Saami community operate with roughly 700 speakers only
– the resulting discrepancy is 50%. A similar case is
to be expected for Forest Nenets. The number of
speakers has been reported exceeding 1000 for quite a
while now, but may actually not exceed 700 when taking
general demographic trends into consideration. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman""
lang="EN-GB">Further, several languages were once a
while reported as extinct (e. g. Livonian, Ume Saami
and Pite Saami) though for all languages L1 speakers
could still be found. Possibly Akkala Saami could also
be added to this list.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman""
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman""
lang="EN-GB">As Ura-List, unfortunately, does not
stimulate much online discussion, we encourage
subscribers to comment this particular matter online.
Of course, we also welcome offline comments. These
should be sent to <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:florian.siegl@helsinki.fi">florian.siegl@helsinki.fi</a>.
Please state on which kind of evidence your
assumptions rest and if possible provide links to
further online resources, own work etc. Please also
state if we are allowed to quote your data/assumption
publicly as p. c. if this would become necessary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman""
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman""
lang="EN-GB">A summary will be posted on Ura-List. A
more “official” mode of representation is currently
also thought of perhaps resulting in an updated
version of the 1992 map <i
style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Geographical
Distribution of the Uralic Languages</i> (then
compiled by Grünthal & Salminen). A suitable
online forum is also currently debated on. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman""
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman""
lang="EN-GB">Last, but not least, please forward this
message to colleagues and language activists who are
not subscribers of Ura-List.<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman""
lang="EN-GB"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman""
lang="EN-GB">Florian Siegl<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><o:smarttagtype
namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"> </o:smarttagtype></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times
New Roman"" lang="EN-GB"><br>
PhD, researcher</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times
New Roman"" lang="EN-GB">Department of Finnish,
Finno-Ugrian and Scandinavian Studies, <st1:address
w:st="on"><st1:street w:st="on"><br>
P.O.Box</st1:street> 24</st1:address><br>
FIN-00014 <st1:city w:st="on">University of Helsinki</st1:city><br>
Finland</span></p>
<br>
<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman""
lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span>
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