VYAKARAN: South Asian Languages and Linguistics Net
Editors: Tej K. Bhatia, Syracuse University, New York
John Peterson, University of Osnabrueck, Germany
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<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>Aadil Kak is right. Only comments 11, 12 in my mail, bear</DIV>
<DIV>on language, that too with respect to social factors. Kak or</DIV>
<DIV>anyone else, expecting academic issues, or notices, calls</DIV>
<DIV>of some language conferences, should not leave the forum</DIV>
<DIV>because of my mails. I thought socio-linguistics are part of</DIV>
<DIV>language studies. What language and script to be used on</DIV>
<DIV>coins or vehicle plates in a multilingual country ? Hundreds</DIV>
<DIV>of English words entering Indian languages. How to modify</DIV>
<DIV>them within Marathi, Hindi etc? How to write say Company,</DIV>
<DIV>equivalent to kampani or kampanee? Religions too step in.</DIV>
<DIV>Wrongly, Urdu in Arabic script is called Muslim language.</DIV>
<DIV>Riots take place on issue of languages. Once a while, if a</DIV>
<DIV>message comes, not strictly academic, it can be deleted.</DIV>
<DIV>My mails are usually bimonthly, showing Marathi samples</DIV>
<DIV>in Devanagari and Roman (based on symbols available on</DIV>
<DIV>current machines serving English. No diacritical marks). I</DIV>
<DIV>shall stop mails, if the Moderator directs. -- M. N. Gogate</DIV>
<DIV>PS. You may see E01, E04, E15 in (<A href="http://www.mngogate.com">www.mngogate.com</A>) </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--- On <B>Sat, 13/3/10, aadil kak <I><aadilaminkak@YAHOO.COM></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: aadil kak <aadilaminkak@YAHOO.COM><BR>Subject: Re: Savarkar, Hindutva (closure)<BR>To: VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU<BR>Date: Saturday, 13 March, 2010, 1:48 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=yiv1460940455>VYAKARAN: South Asian Languages and Linguistics Net Editors: Tej K. Bhatia, Syracuse University, New York John Peterson, University of Osnabrueck, Germany Details: Send email to listserv@listserv.syr.edu and say: INFO VYAKARAN Subscribe:Send email to listserv@listserv.syr.edu and say: SUBSCRIBE VYAKARAN FIRST_NAME LAST_NAME (Substitute your real name for first_name last_name) Archives: http://listserv.syr.edu
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<TD id=drftMsgContent><FONT size=2>Dear All, </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I think i am missing something here.. Is this forum a linguistics forum, an academic forum or a forum of something else? Do we have a moderator around? This is the second time we have received mails from Mr Gogate and they dont seem to be relevant. i guess there will be forums for this stuff somewhere else. Please let me know if this forum is a forum of politics, society-matters, etc. if so i would like to discontinue being a part of this forum. somebody please let me know.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Aadil<BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 3/12/10, Madhukar N. Gogate <I><mngogate1932@YAHOO.COM></I></B> wrote:<BR></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR><FONT size=2>From: Madhukar N. Gogate <mngogate1932@YAHOO.COM><BR>Subject: Savarkar, Hindutva (closure)<BR>To: VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU<BR>Date: Friday, March 12, 2010, 3:14 PM<BR><BR></FONT>
<DIV id=yiv299172769><FONT size=2>VYAKARAN: South Asian Languages and Linguistics Net Editors: Tej K. Bhatia, Syracuse University, New York John Peterson, University of Osnabrueck, Germany Details: Send email to listserv@listserv.syr.edu and say: INFO VYAKARAN Subscribe:Send email to listserv@listserv.syr.edu and say: SUBSCRIBE VYAKARAN FIRST_NAME LAST_NAME (Substitute your real name for first_name last_name) Archives: http://listserv.syr.edu </FONT>
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<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>=========================================</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Subject >> Savarkar, Hindutva Pune, 12 March 2010</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>I received many comments by email, phones etc. I give</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>briefly few. Think over. Thanks, I close the topic - MNG </FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Comment 1</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Important points have been raised. Food for thought.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Comment 2</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><EM>Instances of Christian terrorism in </EM><EM>north-east states. </EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Monetary temptations too.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Comment 3</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Social reform is slow process, spread on many years</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>and generations. Present day Hindus dont subscribe</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>to Untouchability. They are sorry their ancestors had</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>practised it. Muslim society very very slow to reforms.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Ofcourse many patriotic Muslims have enriched India.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Comment 4</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>In view of Tikekar's letter, MNG's apology is sporting.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Terrorists kill innocents, some of their religion too.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Comment 5</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Educate Western media. They say a "Hindu" fanatic</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>killed Gandhi. They dont say that "Christian" fanatic</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>killed Lincoln, or Kennedy.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Comment 6</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Basically Hindus tolerant, peace-loving. Jews, Parsis</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>of foreign origin settled in India comfortably.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Comment 7</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>In 2002, terrorism deaths were less in Kashmir, much</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>more in Gujarat, a record number in that decade.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Comment 8</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>"The Roots of Terrorism" year 2009, edited by Anand</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Shankar (Shraddha Prakashan, Delhi) is eye-opener.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>It contains articles, by many intellectuals. One says</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>that there are 32000 Madarsas in India having 74000</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>teachers and 18 lakh students, getting huge finances</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>from oil rich middle-east. They teach students to hate</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>non-Muslims, eventually become terrorists (Jihad etc).</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Comment 9</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Savarkar was great patriot. He was against casteism</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>and untouchability. His Devanagari script reforms are</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>irrelevant now, since computers tackle traditional lipi.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Comment 10</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>There are high-caste sammelans too. Their leaders</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>emphasize on using sacred thread (jaanve), though</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>probably 90% audience do not wear it. They forced</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>a Professor to apologize when the Professor spoke</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>that the thread has lost relevance, is out-of-date.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Comment 11</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Why exodus > Marathi to English medium schools?</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>The real reason (not openly stated) is many parents</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>of high caste students dont want mixing with others.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Convent schools (no Govt aid) expensive for others.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Also, English language fluency essential for career.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Comment 12</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Education in mothertongue is good, but what about</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Nation-Building ? America is a melting pot, forcing</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>non-English-speaking immigrants to study English,</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>all work in English (mothertongue in homes, clubs).</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>English language worked as their powerful cement.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>.............................................................................</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>I have apologized to Mr. Aroon Tikekar. To amend error,</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>I circulate (BCC) apology & previous mails to all, whom </FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>I had sent my mail subject "Savarkar, Hindutva". I have</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>omitted Tikekar's email-id, to keep his privacy. -- MNG</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>--- On <B>Sun, 7/3/10, Madhukar N. Gogate </B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><B><I><mngogate1932@yahoo.com></I></B> wrote:<BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR><FONT size=2>From: Madhukar N. Gogate </FONT><A href="http://in.mc1132.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mngogate1932@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank><FONT size=2>mngogate1932@yahoo.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=2>Date: Sunday, 7 March, 2010, 1:25 PM<BR><BR></FONT>
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<DIV><FONT size=2>Dear Mr Tikekar,.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I mentioned you, since your statement was revealing to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>me. I felt that due credit should be given to you in mail.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I recall that you said Hindu terrorists outnumber Muslim</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>terrorists in India. That is what I meant by Statistics.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I dont remember, venue, year. I recall Bhai Vaidya was</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>chairman. The talk may be at at SM Joshi hall Pune. To</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>check matters I phoned Mr Vaidya. He said he does not</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>remember now. He mentioned he (Bhai Vaidya), Kumar </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Ketkar openly refer to large number of Hindu terrorists in</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>India. Bhai also referred to the Bodo agitation in Assam.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>This is a lesson to me. I should have mentioned the point</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>without quoting you. Since you have denied the quotation,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>and I cannot give evidence, I apologize. Please store this</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>mail for any future reference, if needed. Sorry, once again.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>-- M. N. Gogate (</FONT><A href="http://www.mngogate.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank><FONT size=2>www.mngogate.com</FONT></A><FONT size=2>) Pune 7 March 2010.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT size=2>.........................................................................................<BR>From: Aroon tikekar </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>To: "Madhukar Gogate" <mngogate1932@yahoo.com><BR>Date: Sunday, 7 March, 2010, 12:23 PM<BR><BR>Dear Mr. Gogate,<BR>Your statements regarding my "astonishing the Pune audience " for<BR>calling some people as "Hindu terrorists" is intriguing to me, to say<BR>the least. As a person serious by nature I am not prone to making<BR>provocative speeches. Is it a case of mistaken identity?<BR><BR>I am not even known for giving statistics in my public utterances. I<BR>firmly believe that statistics can be misleading. I restict to ideas<BR>and am happy with that. My subjects too are limited and I do not<BR>generally cross my limits. I am careful about the words I employ. You<BR>know it.<BR>I shall stand corrected if you could inform me the place, the year and<BR>the topic of my speech as I do not remember to have said anything of<BR>that sort. Such statements ascribed to me by you appear to be<BR>uncharacteristic in my
context and hence my doubt of mistaken<BR>identity. There are a couple of other editors who are prone to make<BR>such statements publically.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Aroon Tikekar<BR>.......................................................................................</FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>================================</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>A discussion (March 2010) in a group about</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Savarkar, Hindutva etc. My points below ></FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Any comments ? ----- (</FONT><A href="http://www.mngogate.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank><FONT size=2>www.mngogate.com</FONT></A><FONT size=2>) </FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>---------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>A person (not here) asked my opinion on </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Hussein's picture of naked Saraswati Devi,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>or Toiletseat maker painting Hindu deity on </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>reverse of cover. Agreed, they are insults to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Hindu ethos. Campaign against these ok.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>These are outward symbols, but we must</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>introspect on inner vices, and do reforms.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>No use patting our back that Vivekanand</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>stunned Chicago gathering, starting with</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>words "Brothers and Sisters". That time,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Upper castes in India were treating lower</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>castes like slaves, also as untouchables. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Shejwalkar (Historian) put it bluntly that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>while Europeans were discussing whether</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>India could be reached by travelling West</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>as well... Hindus in India were discussing</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>whether vertical or horizontal gandha lines</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>on human forehead were more sacred !!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Why criticize Muslims and Christians for</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>their conversion campaigns, when Hindu</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>religion is doing harakiri, of no conversion</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>allowed, with rigid caste & subcaste walls.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>So none converts. What will be his caste ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Arun Tikekar stunned a Pune meeting years</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>ago by statistics that killers of Rajiv Gandhi</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>(and other conspirators), LTTE Prabhakaran</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>etc, sandalwood robber Veerappan etc were </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Hindu Terrorists ! This explodes a pet theory</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>that Terrorists are generally Muslims !! Mao</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>terrorists today are not necessarily Muslims.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Films dramatize to some extent. Aurangzeb</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>always stood on a carpet about 15 ft by 15 ft,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>for security, and proclaiming his royalty. His</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>advisers had to speak from a distance. But</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>films show advisers telling him in his ears !!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Truth is Truth. Savarkar swimmed (swam ?)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>how much distance before reaching coast ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Any research? Ignore film dramatization on</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Savarkar's escape to Marseilles, France.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>How many people follow Savarkar? He said</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Cow is an animal (not goddess). How many</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Hindus eat beef ? Savarkar suggested new</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>vowel symbols (matra on अ) in place of (ए) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>etc. Not accepted !! (Kirloskar magazines</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>tried for some time, later gave up). Subject</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>for research. No use just praising Savarkar.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>===============================</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>END</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>======================================</FONT></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br>
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