VYAKARAN: South Asian Languages and Linguistics Net
Editors: Tej K. Bhatia, Syracuse University, New York
John Peterson, University of Osnabrueck, Germany
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I have only this contribution to make to the discussion of the
renaming of Indian cities: We shouldn't think of the former names
of Indian cities as being corrupted by the British. The British
only adopted the names of Indian cities as they heard them. Thus
"Benares" is simply the Hindi "Banāras" and "Cawnpore" is the Hindi
"Kānpur". The problem is one of English spelling and not of British
corruption. In choosing English spellings that are more in harmony
with modern usage, one can hope that soon there will be an official
decision to spell, for example, "Lucknow" something like "Lakhnau".
The decision to rename Banaras "Varanasi" involves an attempt to
restore an earlier form of the name for nationalistic reasons that
are, oddly, rather akin to orientalism. The name "Bombay" is
slightly different in that the British acquired the name from the
Portuguese along with the place. How the Portuguese created or
received the name and what it's relation might be to "Mumbai" is a
matter still open to discussion.<br>
<br>
Richard Barz<br>
<br>
On 19/05/2011 9:26 PM, Dileep Damle wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:SNT134-ds1732A08540B670C5E1EBAAE08E0@phx.gbl"
type="cite">VYAKARAN: South Asian Languages and Linguistics Net
Editors: Tej K. Bhatia, Syracuse University, New York John
Peterson, University of Osnabrueck, Germany
Details: Send email to <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:listserv@listserv.syr.edu">listserv@listserv.syr.edu</a>
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<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-size: 12pt;">
<div>Mumbai has always been called Mumbai by speakers of
Marathi since certainly the 17th century. Hindi Speakers
call it bumbaai, which seems a corruption of the English
Bombay. I believe Gujaratis (probably second largest
linguistic group after Marathi speakers also call it
Mumbai. I was born a Marathi speaking mumbaikar and there
was never any doubt in my mind that its proper name is
Mumbai.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>There is little doubt that the move to reassert the local
name was triggered by two events. One, the reorganisation
of the states on a linguistic basis in the late 1950s when
there was a considerable dispute over whether Mumbai should
go to Maharashtra or Gujarat and some people also wanted it
to become a city state rather like Goa. Maharashtra won out
and Mumbai became the state capital, always referred to in
the state’s official Marathi language discourse as Mumbai.
Second event was the rise of Shiv Sena which claimed to
stand for the local Marathi population rather than
immigrants from other states and beyond who have always held
power in the economic and political fields. Much of the
opposition to the name change comes from these ‘outsiders’,
who espouse their ancestral connections with Europe.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>But surely, it is for the people of a place to determine
the name of their city and if they want to throw off the
place names imposed on them by foreign invaders then who
should deny it. It is a European custom that a city is
given a different name by each foreign nation, vis
London=Londres, Munchen=Munich ,Firenze=Florence,
Venezia=Venice. It is certainly not a world-wide
phenomenon. We are now in the post-clolonial period and
perhaps it is time to stop such arrogance.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The British corrupted names of Indian cities Varanasi
–> Benares, Vadodra->Baroda, Kanpur –>Cawnpore,
Pune-> Poona. Unfortunately the Latin based scripts are
terrible at expressing the sounds of words, but the most
common and most users of these scripts seem to think that
there is something natural and obvious about it. Without
some serious attempt to phoneticise these scripts, I fear
that this abuse will continue. These ‘name changes’ are
often re-spellings and should be welcomed. The Chinese went
through a similar process; vis Beijing, Mao Se Dung, Zhou En
Lai, ...</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Dileep Damle</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family:
'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small;
font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div style="font: 10pt tahoma;">
<div> </div>
<div style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(245,
245, 245);">
<div style=""><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mahajan@HUMNET.UCLA.EDU"
href="mailto:mahajan@HUMNET.UCLA.EDU">Mahajan,
Gyanam</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 18, 2011 11:22 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU"
href="mailto:VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: Question about city names that
are being renamed</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
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Asian Languages and Linguistics Net Editors: Tej K. Bhatia,
Syracuse University, New York John Peterson, University of
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
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font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;">It is a CBS news item: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/11/world/main648623.shtmlp:/">http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/11/world/main648623.shtmlp://</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Gyanam<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;">Gyanam Mahajan, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;">Language Program Coordinator,
SSEALC<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;">ALC Department, UCLA<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style:
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0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:
'Tahoma','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';
font-size: 10pt;"> South Asian Linguists
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">mailto:VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Mahajan, Gyanam<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 18, 2011 3:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question about city names that
are being renamed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">VYAKARAN: South Asian Languages and
Linguistics Net Editors: Tej K. Bhatia, Syracuse
University, New York John Peterson, University of
Osnabrueck, Germany Details: Send email to <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:listserv@listserv.syr.edu">listserv@listserv.syr.edu</a>
and say: INFO VYAKARAN Subscribe:Send email to <a
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<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;">Greetings from UCLA. There is a UC
Berkeley paper that might be of interest and it also
provides several references </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/%7Eeaswaran/papers/india.html">http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~easwaran/papers/india.html</a>.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I remember another article which
pointed out that the Bombay Stock Exchange or Bombay
High Court or Madras University etc. have retained their
name. I will try and find the link to that article and
pass it on.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Gyanam<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;">Gyanam Mahajan, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;">Language Program Coordinator,
SSEALC<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;">ALC Department, UCLA<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
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font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:
'Tahoma','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';
font-size: 10pt;"> South Asian Linguists
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">mailto:VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Thrasher, Allen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 18, 2011 2:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question about city names that
are being renamed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">VYAKARAN: South Asian Languages and
Linguistics Net Editors: Tej K. Bhatia, Syracuse
University, New York John Peterson, University of
Osnabrueck, Germany Details: Send email to <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:listserv@listserv.syr.edu">listserv@listserv.syr.edu</a>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;">Hal,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;">Do you mean you didn't hear Madras
referred to as Chennai by local people when speaking
English, or when speaking Tamil as well?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;">Peter Hook remarked to me back in
69-70 when the push was starting to rename Poona Pune
(or rather, in the unreformed Marathi spelling of the
day, PuneM), that the same people who insisted on
Pune(M) in fact said Poona/PunA, in both Marathi and
English.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;">Allen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;">Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
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Coordinator<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
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font-size: 11pt;">Library of Congress<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-size: 11pt;">Washington, DC 20540-4810<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
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font-size: 11pt;">The opinions expressed do not
necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:
'Tahoma','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';
font-size: 10pt;"> South Asian Linguists
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">mailto:VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Harold Schiffman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 18, 2011 4:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Question about city names that are
being renamed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">VYAKARAN: South Asian Languages and
Linguistics Net Editors: Tej K. Bhatia, Syracuse
University, New York John Peterson, University of
Osnabrueck, Germany Details: Send email to <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:listserv@listserv.syr.edu">listserv@listserv.syr.edu</a>
and say: INFO VYAKARAN Subscribe:Send email to <a
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Hi, all:<br>
<br>
I've been asked by a colleague in another (non-South
Asian) area of the world<br>
what is the history of colonial city naming in India,
and whether it is possible to<br>
reconstruct what the "original" names for Bombay/Mumbai,
Madras/Chennai, and<br>
Calcutta/Kolkata. <br>
<br>
Two questions in particular I have is whether (1) Bombay
was ever called Mumbai by<br>
speakers of other languages of India, other than
Marathi, and (2) when exactly did the<br>
call for renaming Bombay as Mumbai began? I'd be
interested to know how recently<br>
this phenomenon is. <br>
<br>
I know that in the case of Madras/Chennai, I never heard
of "Chennai" when I first went<br>
to Tamilnadu (then called Madras State) in 1965 and only
later was there a push to rename the<br>
city.<br>
<br>
I keep in mind an incident from when I was involved in
SEASSI and went to Hanoi to<br>
recruit teachers of Vietnamese. We noticed that when
speaking Vietnamese, people<br>
referred to Saigon as Saigon, but when speaking English,
they called it Ho Chi Minh City.<br>
So I'm wondering whether this practice is all current in
referring to Indian city names.<br>
<br>
Hal Schiffman<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+<br>
<br>
Harold F. Schiffman<br>
<br>
Professor Emeritus of <br>
Dravidian Linguistics and Culture <br>
Dept. of South Asia Studies <br>
University of Pennsylvania<br>
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6305<br>
<br>
Phone: (215) 898-7475<br>
Fax: (215)
573-2138 <br>
<br>
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:haroldfs@gmail.com">haroldfs@gmail.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/%7Eharoldfs/">http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~haroldfs/</a>
<br>
<br>
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