VYAKARAN: South Asian Languages and Linguistics Net
Editors: Tej K. Bhatia, Syracuse University, New York
John Peterson, University of Osnabrueck, Germany
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<DIV>The Bangkok anecdote is a case of naming the wrong place, not of a foreign
name imposition. And I guess the Germans like all Europeans are in the
habit of having their own names for foreign places. So, that may be the
reason they accept English people calling their country Germany. But, just
what is the nature of the evidence that the Thai people and the Germans don’t
mind? Is it simply anecdotal? After all, Thailand was previously called
Siam. It also used to be the case that when you landed in Mumbai, they
announced ‘Bombay’, but it has changed although there were those who dragged
their heels. Who can say whether the Thai people will not change names in
the future?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ultimately it is a matter of when some people feel the need to and feel
that they are able to assert their identity. A matter of politics
surely!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dileep Damle</DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=haroldfs@GMAIL.COM
href="mailto:haroldfs@GMAIL.COM">Harold Schiffman</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 21, 2011 3:40 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
href="mailto:VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">VYAKARAN@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: Question about city names that are being
renamed</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">VYAKARAN:
South Asian Languages and Linguistics Net Editors: Tej K. Bhatia, Syracuse
University, New York John Peterson, University of Osnabrueck, Germany Details:
Send email to <A
href="mailto:listserv@listserv.syr.edu">listserv@listserv.syr.edu</A> and say:
INFO VYAKARAN Subscribe:Send email to <A
href="mailto:listserv@listserv.syr.edu">listserv@listserv.syr.edu</A> and say:
SUBSCRIBE VYAKARAN FIRST_NAME LAST_NAME (Substitute your real name for
first_name last_name) Archives: <A href="http://listserv.syr.edu"
target=_blank>http://listserv.syr.edu</A> Let me add my two cents again (since I
opened this can of worms) to note a city in Thailand that we farengi call
"Bangkok"<BR>is known there as Krung Thep (<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">¡Ãا෾</SPAN>). They don't insist that we call it
that; Bangkok is the name of a grove of wild plums at a point in the river where
Europeans found they could sail no further, so a port developed there; the
original capital was on the other side of the Chao Phraya river, but then
it was moved to Bangkok and renamed. But the renaming didn't catch on with
us farengi.<BR>(see <A
href="http://www.into-asia.com/bangkok/introduction/fullname.php">http://www.into-asia.com/bangkok/introduction/fullname.php</A>)<BR><BR>The
Thais don't care that we call it Bangkok, and even use it in various
semi-official ways, e.g. when you land in an airplane there,<BR>they announce it
as 'Bangkok.' So it's often a matter of who cares about what--the Germans
don't care (I guess) that we don't<BR>call their country Deutschland, so they
don't make a fuss about it.<BR><BR>Hal Schiffman<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Thrasher, Allen <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:athr@loc.gov">athr@loc.gov</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=im>VYAKARAN: South Asian Languages and Linguistics Net Editors: Tej
K. Bhatia, Syracuse University, New York John Peterson, University of
Osnabrueck, Germany Details: Send email to <A
href="mailto:listserv@listserv.syr.edu"
target=_blank>listserv@listserv.syr.edu</A> and say: INFO VYAKARAN
Subscribe:Send email to <A href="mailto:listserv@listserv.syr.edu"
target=_blank>listserv@listserv.syr.edu</A> and say: SUBSCRIBE VYAKARAN
FIRST_NAME LAST_NAME (Substitute your real name for first_name last_name)
Archives: <A href="http://listserv.syr.edu"
target=_blank>http://listserv.syr.edu</A> </DIV>
<DIV lang=EN-US vlink="purple" link="blue">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>"<SPAN style="COLOR: black"> But surely, it is for the
people of a place to determine the name of their city and if they want to
throw off the place names imposed on them by foreign invaders then who should
deny it. It is a European custom that a city is given a different name
by each foreign nation, vis London=Londres, Munchen=Munich ,Firenze=Florence,
Venezia=Venice. It is certainly not a world-wide phenomenon. We
are now in the post-clolonial period and perhaps it is time to stop such
arrogance."</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Actually, it is this attitude I
personally find a bit arrogant. Are Anglophones really supposed to start
talking not about Germany but about Deutschland, and if so, should we preserve
the German spelling or rather make it phonetic in English, something like
Doichlahnt? And should France be Frahns, or rather Lah Frahns? And
the same question for speakers of other languages. Should the French
stop talking of Angleterre and the Italians of the Tedeschi? I suspect
that different names for the same place in different language is in fact NOT a
world-wide phenomenon. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I presume
the traditional Arabic names for various Indian ports are not an attempt at
transliteration to Arabic of the current (21st c.) standard names in the local
language whether Gujarati, Marathi, Malayalam, Tamil, etc. What the
local government wants to do is another thing, as is the policy of the U.S.
Board of Geographic names or similar government bureaus elsewhere, but is
there really a sort of universal moral obligation to follow it? And of
course, the Chinese versions of foreign placenames are pretty unlikely to be
anything immediately recognizable to a native of the place in question;
many languages have a lot of consonant clusters Chinese and some other
languages can't deal with.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Also, of course, what is meant
by "the people of a place?" Speakers of the majority or official
language of the state currently controlling it, whether or not they are
regarded as legitimate or desirable by the locals? The local
people? What if there are several ethnic groups locally who use
different names for the place.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P><FONT
color=#888888>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Allen Thrasher</SPAN></P></FONT>
<DIV class=im>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Allen W. Thrasher,
Ph.D.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Senior Reference Librarian
and Team Coordinator</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">South Asia Team</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Asian Division</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Library of
Congress</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Washington, DC
20540-4810</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">USA</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">tel. <A
href="tel:202-707-3732" target=_blank
value="+12027073732">202-707-3732</A></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">fax <A
href="tel:202-707-1724" target=_blank
value="+12027071724">202-707-1724</A></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The opinions expressed do not
necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+<BR><BR>Harold F.
Schiffman<BR><BR>Professor Emeritus of <BR>Dravidian Linguistics and Culture
<BR>Dept. of South Asia
Studies
<BR>University of Pennsylvania<BR>Philadelphia, PA
19104-6305<BR><BR>Phone: (215) 898-7475<BR>Fax: (215)
573-2138
<BR><BR>Email: <A
href="mailto:haroldfs@gmail.com">haroldfs@gmail.com</A><BR><A
href="http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~haroldfs/">http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~haroldfs/</A>
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