From prez234 at JUNO.COM  Sun Jun 11 09:53:43 2000
From: prez234 at JUNO.COM (Joseph McCollum)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 04:53:43 CDT
Subject: X-POSTED
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.045343.CDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:52:41 -0400 Alan Baragona <baragonasa at VAX.VMI.EDU>
writes:
>X-POSTED
>
>I just received the following disturbing message from the LINGUIST
>e-list.  Is the listserv software for this list also affected?
>
>"LINGUIST has had some bad news.  The developers of listserv software
>have admitted that the version which LINGUIST runs is not Year 2000
>compliant.  As most of you know, listserv is an email-list management
>program--the only one, to our knowledge, able to handle a list the
>size of LINGUIST.  And, as most of you can easily imagine, a Y2K Bug
>could play havoc with a date-oriented operation like LINGUIST.  So we
>have no choice but to upgrade to the newest version of listserv.  But
>an upgrade costs $2500."

Let's test it.  I have just changed the date in my PC to Jun 10, 2000.
(I have altered the date before on my PC, sent messages to other
listservs, and the message would get through fine.)


From prez234 at JUNO.COM  Mon Jun 26 09:29:15 2000
From: prez234 at JUNO.COM (Joseph McCollum)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 04:29:15 CDT
Subject: Barry Popik
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.042915.CDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:24:00 -0700 Bob Fitzke <fitzke at VOYAGER.NET>
writes:
>--------------EA78821FA4650B8ADEA7515C
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>If the following was noted by anyone on the list and previously
>posted, I missed it.
>
>In the June issue of the "Smithsonian", in an article entitled, Hot
>Dogs Are Us, the following appears at page 107 in a discussion
>of the origin of the phrase "hot dog":
>
>   for several years. Popik, who combines a self assured manor with a
>facial expression of chronic surprise, concentrates on studying old
college
>magazines. The earlist hot dog mention he has come up with so far is a
>story from the Yale Record of Oct 19, 1895 titled "'The Abductiion of
the Night Lunch >Wagon" in which students 'contentedly munched hot dogs.'
"
>
The newscaster Paul Harvey in "The Rest of the Story" claimed an origin
of the term "hot dog."  I don't remember what date it was, but I want to
say that his earliest cite of "hot dog" was from a sports cartoon, not
from a collegiate magazine story.  I also want to say that stadium
vendors wanted a short expression for their delicacy.

I meant to look it up, but I think
"gata por mi coche" is "a car jack for my car (in exchange for my car),"
while
"gata para mi coche" is "a car jack for my car (in order to repair my
car)."


From prez234 at JUNO.COM  Thu Jun 29 10:20:33 2000
From: prez234 at JUNO.COM (Joseph McCollum)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 05:20:33 CDT
Subject: "pastrami"
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.052033.CDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 15:03:27 +0000 Jim Rader <jrader at M-W.COM> writes:
>
>All this reminds me--and takes us back to American speech--that I
>grew up in Chicago among folk of German-American and Polish-American
>ancestry and I never heard the word "kielbasa."  We always called it
>"Polish sausage."  When I was a little kid in the '50's I heard it as
>"poler sausage" and only dimly associated it with Poles.  We used to
>get it from my great uncle Sam, a butcher who must have immigrated to
>North America when he was in his '20's.  He was the only person in my
>family with a foreign accent.
>
>Jim Rader
>
I grew up near Pittsburgh, PA in the 1960's-1970's -- and I heard
"kielbasa" all the time.  There were many different spellings of the
word.  The Washington, PA Observer-Reporter had a story in the mid-1970's
on the different spellings.
The only other one I remember is "kolbassy."  Supermarkets have replaced
a lot of the neighborhood butcher shops, so I'll bet the spelling has
been standardized since then.


From prez234 at JUNO.COM  Fri Jun 30 02:54:22 2000
From: prez234 at JUNO.COM (Joseph McCollum)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:54:22 CDT
Subject: president & First Lady
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.215422.CDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What's the male equivalent of "first lady?"  Many states have adopted
"first gentleman," but I rather like "first lord."


From prez234 at JUNO.COM  Thu Jun  1 08:02:16 2000
From: prez234 at JUNO.COM (Joseph McCollum)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 03:02:16 CDT
Subject: metadata?
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.030216.CDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think this claim has been decided as frivolous (or it ought to be).  In
any case, I would like to know if "metadata" existed as a generic word
before 1986 (when the trademark was issued)...My colleagues are sure that
it did, but maybe Barry P. or others could confirm it.
------
Please be advised that our firm represents The Metadata Company LLC which
is
the holder of all rights in the trademark METADATA as applied to computer
programs and computer program manuals.  Our client's mark is registered
as
U.S. Trademark Registration Nos. 1,409,260 and 2,185,504, copies of which
are enclosed herewith.  Our client's Registration No. 1,409,360 has
become
incontestable as provided by 15 U.S.C. � 1065.

It has come to our client's attention that your organization has
published
documents on the Internet in which our client's registered trademark,
METADATA, has been misused, and has invited interested entities to
download
a copy of a document with this misused and infringing form of our
client's
mark.  We refer specifically to your use at your web [site] of our
client's
mark in your description of an "ANZLIC Metadata Entry Tool (MET)".

Our client has no objection to the use of the two separate words, "Meta
Data" or even the hyphenated term "Meta-data" to describe data about data
or
as a title for any software you wish to provide.  However, the single
unhyphenated term, "METADATA" is a federally registered trademark in the
United States which belongs exclusively to our client.  We would
appreciate
it if you would provide us with your written commitment that you will
ensure
that your future web site publications and any other publications do not
misuse our client's registered trademark, METADATA.
-------------------------------------------------------


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Thu Jun  1 02:08:02 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:08:02 -0700
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
In-Reply-To: <E12xAAs-0002EJ-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.31.MAY.2000.190802.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>...  Marmalade comes in orange, lemon, and grapefruit varieties.

And lime and tangerine and ginger...

Rima


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Jun  1 02:24:06 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:24:06 -0600
Subject: Ich bin ein Berliner
Message-ID: <WED.31.MAY.2000.202406.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Allan Metcalf correctly  suspects that (Reinhold) Aman convincingly
rejected the notion that  Kennedy was understood to say "I am a
jelly-doughnut." Aman's article appeared in his publication _Maledicta_,
but I do not have the exact reference handy.  I'll get ahold of it tomorrow
and share it with ADS-L.

-----Gerald Cohen
>
><< BERLIN DOUGHNUTS
>
>"I am a jelly doughnut."
>--John F. Kennedy (translated from the German) >>
>
>This translation of Kennedy's "Ich bin ein Berliner" is a myth. Was it
>Reinhard Aman who wrote the definitive article about it? Perhaps someone has
>a reference to the specific publication.
>
>- Allan Metcalf



gcohen at umr.edu


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Thu Jun  1 01:35:57 2000
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:35:57 -0700
Subject: metadata
In-Reply-To: <1874204.3168780497@[10.218.202.108]>
Message-ID: <WED.31.MAY.2000.183557.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't know, but here is the company's take on it from their web-page
(http://www.metadata.com):

The Mark Metadata

The mark METADATA was registered in 1986 in the United States of America
Patent and Trademark Office as U.S. Trademark Registration   No 1,409,206
and is a valuable proprietary trade name and trademark belonging to The
Metadata Company. The trademark was  granted "Incontestable" status in
1991.

When used as a trade name it stands for The Metadata Company.

When used as a trademark it symbolizes the owner of that mark as the
source of computer programs bearing that mark.  When the registered mark
METADATA is used in print, the proprietary nature of that mark must be
preserved. Accordingly, when the mark METADATA is used, it should always
begin with a capital "M" or be completely capitalized. Also, it should
always be noted in any publication that the mark is a registered trademark
of The Metadata Company.

The mark should not be used generically as a noun, or as a descriptive
term, but rather only in its proper context, which is an identification of
The Metadata Company or as a registered trademark for computer programs
bearing that mark.

If the intent of the use of the term METADATA is to mean "data about
data", then it should be used as two words (meta data) or hyphenated
(meta-data).

In the early summer of 1969, after defining the architecture of what was
later to be called the Metamodel, Jack E. Myers coined a new word -
"metadata". He first used the term in print in a 1973 product brochure. It
was    intentionally designed to be a term with no particular meaning that
would be catchy and possibly easy to remember...e.g., "I never metadata I
did not like."

In his experience and knowledge it was a new term. A data and publication
search at that time did not discover any use either of the word
"metadata" or "meta data".   If META and DATA were used as two words, they
would refer to the data about meta e.g., "a triple and conical turning
post placed at each end of a track in a Roman Circus." (Webster Dictionary
of the English Language).  The word META had several established meanings
when used to prefix other words but none when used to prefix the word
DATA. METADATA could not be inferred from other uses of META. It is not,
e.g.,:

data that has been changed in position or form, altered or transposed, as
in METAmorphosed;

data that is abstract, abstruse or subtle, as in METAphysics. ( The use of
META in metaphysics referred to those books by Aristotle that came after
his books on physics. Adler's Philosophical Dictionary, ISBN
0-684-80360-7)


data that is behind or in back, as in METAthorax.

Use of the word meta- is found in the article "Gurus of
Meta-Human," September 29, 1997, issue of Newsweek. The author, Rick
Marin, states that: part of being "alternative" means being "meta," or one
level cooler than everybody else.

The intent of the term Metadata was to be used to represent current and
future lines of products implementing the concepts of the Metamodel and
also to designate a company that would develop and market those
products.  Mr. Myers, the  developer of the Metadata Data Model
(Metamodel), is a principal of The Metadata Company.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meta-Data and Meta Data

Meta data, n. [from L. meta-; Gr. meta- and L. data] Data that
characterizes other data in a reflexive way, e.g., data about
data. Analogous to words about words. In data processing, it is
definitional data that provides information about or documentation of
other data managed within an application or environment. For example, meta
data would document data about DATA ELEMENTS or ATTRIBUTES, (name, size,
data type, etc) and data about RECORDS or DATA STRUCTURES (length,
fields/columns, etc) and data about DATA (where it is located, how it is
associated, ownership, etc.). Meta data may include descriptive
information about the context, quality and condition, or characteristics
of the data.

Return to top of page


On Wed, 31 May 2000, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> Does the prior generic existence of a word preclude registering it as a
> trademark and thus reserving it for that purpose from then on?
>
> Peter
>
> --On Thu, Jun 1, 2000 3:02 AM +0000 Joseph McCollum <prez234 at JUNO.COM>
> wrote:
>
> > I think this claim has been decided as frivolous (or it ought to be).  In
> > any case, I would like to know if "metadata" existed as a generic word
> > before 1986 (when the trademark was issued)...My colleagues are sure that
> > it did, but maybe Barry P. or others could confirm it.
> > ------
> >
> ****************************************************************************
>                                Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu
>


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Thu Jun  1 02:39:47 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:39:47 -0400
Subject: metadata.
Message-ID: <WED.31.MAY.2000.223947.0400.>

Doesn't anyone on the list watch "Who wants to be a millionaire?"
I just watched today's show a couple of hours after the event and I am looking
forward to seeing Fred Shapiro in the hotseat tomorrow. Best wishes to Fred.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  1 04:34:33 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 00:34:33 EDT
Subject: Monte Cristo sandwich
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.003433.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    The Indiana Pacers just beat the New York Knicks.  Pacer Mark Jackson
gave his "cross" sign after scoring a basket.  He said it wasn't to counter
Larry Johnson's "L" sign--it was just to praise Jesus.
    Maybe Jesus can tell me if it's the Con-SEE-Co or Con-SAY-Co Arena.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MONTE CRISTO SANDWICH

     From John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK:

_Monte Cristo sandwich._  A sandwich composed of ham, chicken, and Swiss
cheese enclosed in bread that is dipped in beaten egg and fried until golden
brown.  The origin of the name is not known.

     From GOURMET, July 1968, pg. 53, col. 2:

Q: My husband is Danish and trained in restaurant work, and we have just
arrived in California from Copenhagen.  We were recently served a Monte
Cristo sandwich at a Los Angeles restaurant, and are most interested in
learning the recipe.  We have been given a subscription to your magazine and
are very pleased with the many fine features you have.
MRS. FLEMMING LINDBERG
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
A: Perhaps named after the Count, here is
     _Monte Cristo Sandwich_
     Butter a slice of white bread and cover it with sliced lean baked ham
and sliced cooked chicken.  Butter a second slice on both sides, place it on
the meat, and cover it with thinly sliced Swiss cheese.  Butter a third slice
and place it, buttered side down, over the cheese.  Trim away the crusts and
cut the sandwich in half.  Secure the halves with wooden picks, dip them in
beaten egg, and saute them in butter on both sides until they are golden
brown.  Remove the picks and serve the sandwich with currant jelly,
strawberry jam, or cranberry sauce.  Serves 1.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MONKEY TEARS

     Any relation to Monkey Bread?
     From the LOS ANGELES TIMES PRIZE COOK BOOK (1923), pg. 271, col. 1:

     _MONKEY TEARS_
     One cup sugar, four tablespoonfuls butter, one egg beat, mix well.
One-half cup sour milk, one scant teaspoon soda, dissolved in one tablespoon
of water and add to the sour milk.  Two and one-fourth cups of flour, add.
Drop small tablespoonfuls on greased pans about two inches apart.  Pat down
and place three large raisins in center of each.  (These are the tears.)
Bake in moderate oven.
--Mrs. P. G. Wiseman, Los Angeles.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BAKING BLIND

     From GOURMET, January 1965, pg. 24, col. 3:

     _In foreign recipes, what it meant by baking pies and tarts "blind"?_
     Baking "blind" means simply that the pie shells or tart shells are baked
separately, without a filling.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SPIZZAZ

     From 10,000 SNACKS (1937) by Cora, Rose, and Bob Brown, pg. 448:

     Beyond the citrus belt are the snake farms, and from there come smoked
rattlesnake tidbits that put the spizzaz in cocktail parties.

     The OED has 1937 for "pizzazz."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
FOOD MISC.

THREE GRUNTS AND A SIGH--This pork dish is on page 132 of THE PALATISTS BOOK
OF COOKERY (Hollywood, Calif., 1933).

SNICKERDOODLES--Another sighting ("snicker doodles") is on page 91 of
SELECTED RECIPES (Falmouth Foreside, Maine; November 1929).  Yet another
sighting ("snickerdoodles") is on page 123 of LOOK BEFORE YOU COOK (1941) by
Rose and Bob Brown.

PEANUT BUTTER AND JELLY SANDWICH--MRS. WILLIAM VAUGHN MOODY'S COOK BOOK
(1931) has "White Bread, Entire Wheat Bread, Peanut Butter, Currant Jelly"
sandwich on pages 410-411.


From MILLERJ at FRANKLINCOLL.EDU  Thu Jun  1 06:18:02 2000
From: MILLERJ at FRANKLINCOLL.EDU (Miller, Jerry)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:18:02 -0500
Subject: Monte Cristo sandwich
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.011802.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's Con-SEE-Co Fieldhouse.

Jesus


        -----Original Message-----
        From:   Bapopik at AOL.COM [SMTP:Bapopik at AOL.COM]
        Sent:   Wednesday, May 31, 2000 11:35 PM
        To:     ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
        Subject:        Monte Cristo sandwich

            The Indiana Pacers just beat the New York Knicks.  Pacer Mark
Jackson
        gave his "cross" sign after scoring a basket.  He said it wasn't to
counter
        Larry Johnson's "L" sign--it was just to praise Jesus.
            Maybe Jesus can tell me if it's the Con-SEE-Co or Con-SAY-Co
Arena.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
        ---------------------------------------------
        MONTE CRISTO SANDWICH

             From John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK:

        _Monte Cristo sandwich._  A sandwich composed of ham, chicken, and
Swiss
        cheese enclosed in bread that is dipped in beaten egg and fried
until golden
        brown.  The origin of the name is not known.

             From GOURMET, July 1968, pg. 53, col. 2:

        Q: My husband is Danish and trained in restaurant work, and we have
just
        arrived in California from Copenhagen.  We were recently served a
Monte
        Cristo sandwich at a Los Angeles restaurant, and are most interested
in
        learning the recipe.  We have been given a subscription to your
magazine and
        are very pleased with the many fine features you have.
        MRS. FLEMMING LINDBERG
        LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
        A: Perhaps named after the Count, here is
             _Monte Cristo Sandwich_
             Butter a slice of white bread and cover it with sliced lean
baked ham
        and sliced cooked chicken.  Butter a second slice on both sides,
place it on
        the meat, and cover it with thinly sliced Swiss cheese.  Butter a
third slice
        and place it, buttered side down, over the cheese.  Trim away the
crusts and
        cut the sandwich in half.  Secure the halves with wooden picks, dip
them in
        beaten egg, and saute them in butter on both sides until they are
golden
        brown.  Remove the picks and serve the sandwich with currant jelly,
        strawberry jam, or cranberry sauce.  Serves 1.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
        ---------------------------------------------
        MONKEY TEARS

             Any relation to Monkey Bread?
             From the LOS ANGELES TIMES PRIZE COOK BOOK (1923), pg. 271,
col. 1:

             _MONKEY TEARS_
             One cup sugar, four tablespoonfuls butter, one egg beat, mix
well.
        One-half cup sour milk, one scant teaspoon soda, dissolved in one
tablespoon
        of water and add to the sour milk.  Two and one-fourth cups of
flour, add.
        Drop small tablespoonfuls on greased pans about two inches apart.
Pat down
        and place three large raisins in center of each.  (These are the
tears.)
        Bake in moderate oven.
        --Mrs. P. G. Wiseman, Los Angeles.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
        ---------------------------------------------
        BAKING BLIND

             From GOURMET, January 1965, pg. 24, col. 3:

             _In foreign recipes, what it meant by baking pies and tarts
"blind"?_
             Baking "blind" means simply that the pie shells or tart shells
are baked
        separately, without a filling.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
        ---------------------------------------------
        SPIZZAZ

             From 10,000 SNACKS (1937) by Cora, Rose, and Bob Brown, pg.
448:

             Beyond the citrus belt are the snake farms, and from there come
smoked
        rattlesnake tidbits that put the spizzaz in cocktail parties.

             The OED has 1937 for "pizzazz."


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
        ---------------------------------------------
        FOOD MISC.

        THREE GRUNTS AND A SIGH--This pork dish is on page 132 of THE
PALATISTS BOOK
        OF COOKERY (Hollywood, Calif., 1933).

        SNICKERDOODLES--Another sighting ("snicker doodles") is on page 91
of
        SELECTED RECIPES (Falmouth Foreside, Maine; November 1929).  Yet
another
        sighting ("snickerdoodles") is on page 123 of LOOK BEFORE YOU COOK
(1941) by
        Rose and Bob Brown.

        PEANUT BUTTER AND JELLY SANDWICH--MRS. WILLIAM VAUGHN MOODY'S COOK
BOOK
        (1931) has "White Bread, Entire Wheat Bread, Peanut Butter, Currant
Jelly"
        sandwich on pages 410-411.


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Thu Jun  1 08:24:48 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 04:24:48 -0400
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.042448.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm at SLIP.NET>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: jams, jellies, and preserves


>>...  Marmalade comes in orange, lemon, and grapefruit varieties.
>
>And lime and tangerine and ginger...


Ginger marmalade!?! Oh frabjous day! I now have a quest...

And so, with the inclusion of ginger marmalade, any simple rule that might
have been, citrus fruits with peels (the peel qualifier saves us from the
whole lemon curd issue...) make marmalades for example, gets tossed right
out the window. What is it with this %^%%$##$*ing language anyway. Can't
there just be a rule and have it followed? Oy.

And to drag this back to topic...however did ginger come to refer to
red/orange hair in the UK? I could understand blonde, but red?

bkd


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Thu Jun  1 08:40:54 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 04:40:54 -0400
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.044054.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: A. Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: jams, jellies, and preserves


>> And then there's conserve, which is 'jam made of fruits stewed in
>> sugar', according to AHD.  According to the labels at the supermarket,
>> it's 'continental extra jam', 'gently cooked in open pans', and without
>> exception 'imported from France'.
>>
>
>Perhaps the difference between preserves and conserve (besides French) is
pectin
>or gelatin, but this is just a guess based on Lynne's listing of label
locution.

I forgot about conserves in my original reply...and yes this mirrors my
experience with the products.

On a continuum you have jam/jelly at one end, with no discernible fruit type
element, other than the flavor, somewhere in the middle are preserves, which
have actual bits of fruit suspended somewhere in the medium, and conserves
at the other end, where, ideally, there is no medium, just fruit and sugar.

All of which leads me to the FDA website, which is the only dictionary that
matters as far as products on US supermarket shelves is concerned, and is
quite prescriptivist by nature:

 What guidance does FDA have for manufacturers of Fruit Jams (Preserves),
Jellies, Fruit Butters, and Marmalades?


 The standards of identity for jams and jellies (21 CFR 150) require that
these products be prepared by mixing not less than 45 parts by weight of
certain specified fruits (or fruit juice in the case of jelly), and 47 parts
by weight of other designated fruits, to each 55 parts by weight of sugar or
other optional nutritive carbohydrate sweetening ingredient. Only sufficient
pectin to compensate for a deficiency, if any, of the natural pectin content
of the particular fruit may be added to jams and jellies. The standards also
require that for both jams (preserves) and jellies, the finished product
must be concentrated to not less than 65 percent soluble solids.

Standards of identity have also been established for artificially sweetened
jams and jellies, and for these products the fruit ingredient must be not
less than 55 percent by weight of the finished food product.

Fruit butters are defined by the standard of identity as the smooth,
semisolid foods made from not less than five parts by weight of fruit
ingredient to each two parts by weight of nutritive carbohydrate sweetening
ingredient. As is the case with jams and jellies, only sufficient pectin may
be added to compensate for a deficiency, if any, of the natural pectin
content of the particular fruit. The fruit butter standard requires that the
finished product must be concentrated to not less than 43 percent soluble
solids.

There is no formal standard of identity for marmalades. However, to avoid
misbranding, a product labeled sweet orange marmalade should be prepared by
mixing at least 30 pounds of fruit (peel and juice) to each 70 pounds
sweetening ingredients. Sour or bitter (Seville) orange marmalade, lemon
marmalade, and lime marmalade should be prepared by mixing at least 25
pounds of fruit (peel and juice) to each 75 pounds of sweetening ingredient.
The amount of peel should not be in excess of the amounts normally
associated with fruit. The product should be concentrated to not less than
65 percent soluble solids.

Jams, jellies, and similar fruit products should, of course, be prepared
only from sound fruit. Decayed or decomposed fruits and insect-contaminated
fruits should be sorted out and discarded.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

You'll notice the conspicuous absence of conserves, though it's likely
considered a special case of jam, where the fruit content exceeds the minmum
by some absurd amount...

bkd


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Jun  1 09:49:13 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:49:13 +0100
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.104913.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bruce asks:

> And to drag this back to topic...however did ginger come to refer to
> red/orange hair in the UK? I could understand blonde, but red?

It's more usually used for what we'd call strawberry blonde--so it's reddish
blonde.  You also hear it a lot of cats--a ginger cat--which are not red but
might have a warm tinge to their blond fur.  People with really red hair are
more likely to be called 'red-headed'--Ginger Spice excluded (but then she
did have those blonde streaks).

Lynne


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Thu Jun  1 09:50:45 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 05:50:45 -0400
Subject: Monte Cristo sandwich
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.055045.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 01, 2000 12:35 AM
Subject: Monte Cristo sandwich


>MONTE CRISTO SANDWICH
>
>     From John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK:
>
>_Monte Cristo sandwich._  A sandwich composed of ham, chicken, and Swiss
>cheese enclosed in bread that is dipped in beaten egg and fried until
golden
>brown.  The origin of the name is not known.
>
>     From GOURMET, July 1968, pg. 53, col. 2:
>
>A: Perhaps named after the Count, here is
>     _Monte Cristo Sandwich_


The recipe is descended from the French Croque Monsieur, essentially as
described, ham and cheese sandwich dipped in egg batter and sauteed in
butter. Whence the evolution to Monte Cristo, I have no idea. The recipe
itself has undergone mutation as well in the intervening years...you now
sometimes find a Monte Cristo is nothing more than ham, turkey and cheese,
stacked on French toast and cooked.

Compare also to Croque Madame (frome Epicurious):
[KROHK mah-DAHM]
In France, this is a CROQUE MONSIEUR (toasted ham and cheese sandwich) with
the addition of a fried egg. In Britain and America, a croque madame simply
substitutes sliced chicken for the ham, with no sign of an egg.

[KROHK muhs-YOOR]
A French-style grilled ham and cheese sandwich that is dipped into beaten
egg before being sautéed in butter. Croque monsieur is sometimes made in a
special sandwich-grilling iron consisting of two hinged metal plates, each
with two shell-shaped indentations. See also  CROQUE MADAME.


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Thu Jun  1 10:03:45 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:03:45 +0100
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
In-Reply-To: <006701bfcba2$da128310$8a70cec0@qwe.graphnet.com>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.110345.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 1/6/00 9:24 AM, Bruce Dykes wrote:

> What is it with this %^%%$##$*ing language anyway. Can't
> there just be a rule and have it followed? Oy.

Wouldn't that put a lot of us out of a job? :-)


>
> And to drag this back to topic...however did ginger come to refer to
> red/orange hair in the UK? I could understand blonde, but red?
>

According to my AH(E)D, definition 4 of "ginger" is "a strong brown".  Most
of the gingers (both "g"s are "hard", velar stops in Scots) I have met or
seen are on the brown side of red... not quite auburn, but not bright,
fiery, carroty red, either.  Sometimes I have misidentified such people as
having brown hair... perhaps it's the lack of sun.

The semantic extension from one shade of red to all shades are red seems
perfectly feasible to me, but I'm not a semanticist.  I'll ask and see if
the term, indeed, applies to those with the bright, orange blonde-side of
red.

BTW, didn't the Movie Star in Gilligan's Island have a darker shade or red?

--Aaron


________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
  --Death


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Thu Jun  1 10:06:23 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:06:23 +0100
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
In-Reply-To: <E12xRZ4-00043I-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.110623.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 1/6/00 10:49 AM, Lynne Murphy wrote:

> Bruce asks:
>
>> And to drag this back to topic...however did ginger come to refer to
>> red/orange hair in the UK? I could understand blonde, but red?
>
> It's more usually used for what we'd call strawberry blonde--so it's reddish
> blonde.  You also hear it a lot of cats--a ginger cat--which are not red but
> might have a warm tinge to their blond fur.  People with really red hair are
> more likely to be called 'red-headed'--Ginger Spice excluded (but then she
> did have those blonde streaks).
>
> Lynne
>


Okay.  So maybe it's an English-Scottish thing.  Maybe it's the different
interpretations from a male perspective and a female perspective.  Neither
of us being British helps.

--Aaron

________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
  --Death


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun  1 10:54:17 2000
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 03:54:17 -0700
Subject: Wall Street article-Closely held
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.035417.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the Wall Street Journal article of May 30, "No
longer just eggheads, linguists leap to the net," that
Allan informed us about, the term "closely held" is
used to describe most of the e-businesses mentioned.
Does anyone have any ideas about its meaning as used
in the article:

   "...tripled his income by joining closely held
Lexeme..."
"Ten of the 30 employees at closely held Cymfony Inc.
...have linguistics Ph.D.'s."
"Closely held AnswerLogic, Inc....is hiring and
training ...'language lovers'..."
"...recently took a job at closely held BeVocal
Inc...."



=====
Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English & Linguistics
and University Editor
Department of English, Hampton University
Hampton, VA 23668
Office:(757)727-5437; Fax:(757)727-5421; home:(757)851-5773
e-mail: mlee303 at yahoo.com   or     margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun  1 11:16:39 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 07:16:39 -0400
Subject: metadata.
In-Reply-To: <3935CCF3.365E49F9@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.071639.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 31 May 2000, Thomas Paikeday wrote:

> Doesn't anyone on the list watch "Who wants to be a millionaire?"
> I just watched today's show a couple of hours after the event and I am looking
> forward to seeing Fred Shapiro in the hotseat tomorrow. Best wishes to Fred.

First of all, I don't admit that the fool on tonight's show is me.
Shapiro is a common name, and there may be more than one Fred Shapiro from
New Haven.  Secondly, I happen to have inside information that the fool on
tonight's show does not get on the hot seat, that he doesn't even come
close to winning any of the "fastest finger" rounds.

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Thu Jun  1 11:32:33 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 07:32:33 -0400
Subject: Wall Street article-Closely held
In-Reply-To: <20000601105417.3950.qmail@web1403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.073233.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Margaret Lee wrote:

>Does anyone have any ideas about its meaning as used
>in the article:

See close corporation under corporation in Black's Law Dict.

Bethany


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun  1 12:53:50 2000
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 08:53:50 -0400
Subject: Wall Street article-Closely held
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.085350.0400.>

This is a common term in business journalism: "closely held" simply
means that there is no publicly-traded stock; the owners control all of
it.

Margaret Lee wrote:

> In the Wall Street Journal article of May 30, "No
> longer just eggheads, linguists leap to the net," that
> Allan informed us about, the term "closely held" is
> used to describe most of the e-businesses mentioned.
> Does anyone have any ideas about its meaning as used
> in the article:
>
>    "...tripled his income by joining closely held
> Lexeme..."
> "Ten of the 30 employees at closely held Cymfony Inc.
> ...have linguistics Ph.D.'s."
> "Closely held AnswerLogic, Inc....is hiring and
> training ...'language lovers'..."
> "...recently took a job at closely held BeVocal
> Inc...."
>
> =====
> Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of English & Linguistics
> and University Editor
> Department of English, Hampton University
> Hampton, VA 23668
> Office:(757)727-5437; Fax:(757)727-5421; home:(757)851-5773
> e-mail: mlee303 at yahoo.com   or     margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com/

--
____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
tel:  (740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
(740) 593-2818


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun  1 12:59:12 2000
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 08:59:12 -0400
Subject: ginger-haired
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.085912.0400.>

I've heard "gingy" [j^Inj^i] for a red-head among Jews; I believe it's
current in Israel.

-- db
____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
tel:  (740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
(740) 593-2818


From AGCOM.EGREGORY at TAEXGW.TAMU.EDU  Thu Jun  1 13:43:14 2000
From: AGCOM.EGREGORY at TAEXGW.TAMU.EDU (Elizabeth Gregory)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 08:43:14 -0500
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.084314.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From the _Better Homes and Gardens New Cookbook_, Revised Edition, Eighth Printing, 1980. (Perhaps a little more understandable than FDA. I'm sorry I can't find my USDA Food Presevation Handbook.)

Quote begins:
Jellies are made from fruit juice, are clear, and firm enough to hold their shape.

Jams contain slightly crushed or ground fruit and are usually softer than jelly.

Conserves are jams made from a mixture of fruits, usually including citrus fruit; raisins and nuts are often added.

Marmalade is a tender jelly with pieces of fruit distributed throughout; it commonly contains citrus fruits.

Preserves are whole fruits or large pieces of fruit in a thick, jellied syrup.
Quote ends

In the recipes that follow, some jellies, jams, and marmalades are made with added pectin--others rely on sugar, cooking temperature, and/or pectin already present in the fruit for the jelling action. However, no conserve recipes mention added pectin. There are no recipes for preserves.

Elizabeth Gregory
e-gregory at tamu.edu


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Thu Jun  1 13:57:24 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 08:57:24 -0500
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.085724.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To all who signed the get-well card that Dick Bailey circulated at ADS
Chicago:

I thank you very much.  Until I got the card, I was feeling quite depressed
at having to default on the paper I was scheduled top give.  Your card
warmed my heart and caused the depression to give way to regret.
Thanks forevermore.

Bob


From bspencer at UMICH.EDU  Thu Jun  1 14:30:40 2000
From: bspencer at UMICH.EDU (Bruce H. Spencer)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:30:40 -0400
Subject: Ich bin ein Berliner
In-Reply-To: <200006010355.XAA29647@easycomeeasygo.mr.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.103040.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I haven't read the article mentioned earlier, but this story isn't
entirely a myth. Kennedy's statement was not 'grammatically correct'.
German does not use indefinite articles before professions, nationalities,
or cities of origin: Ich bin Professor; Ich bin Amerikaner; Ich bin
Hamburger; etc. Using indefinite articles in these types of constructions
is a common mistake of English speakers learning German.

The pastry in question is very similar to a doughnut with a cream filling,
not jelly.  'Jelly doughnut' isn't a perfect translation, but it's not
totally off the mark.  The problem is that 'Berliner' are not called
'Berliner' in Berlin.  The residents of Berlin call these things
'Pfannkuchen' the rest of Germany calls them 'Berliner'.  Since Kennedy
was speaking in Berlin, I suspect that many people probably didn't think
of the humorous interpretation until after the fact.  For what it's
worth, the phrase 'Ich bin ein Berliner' is very popular in Berlin; I've
seen it used in advertisements to market things as being true to the
spirit of the city. You can also buy postcards with a cartoon drawing of a
'Berliner' (I mean the pastry) with 'Ich bin ein Berliner' in the speech
bubble.


___________________________________________________________________
Bruce H. Spencer
Germanic Languages and Literatures      Office: (734) 764-5365
3110 Modern Languages Building          Fax:    (734) 763-6557
University of Michigan                  E-mail: bspencer at umich.edu
Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1275
___________________________________________________________________


From Sallie.Lemons at MSDW.COM  Thu Jun  1 15:04:38 2000
From: Sallie.Lemons at MSDW.COM (Sallie Lemons)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:04:38 -0400
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.110438.0400.>

Minor comment/major enthusiasm:  I adore ginger marmalade. I found it
first in Mass. (Stockbridge area).

Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:

> >...  Marmalade comes in orange, lemon, and grapefruit varieties.
>
> And lime and tangerine and ginger...
>
> Rima


From Sallie.Lemons at MSDW.COM  Thu Jun  1 15:05:54 2000
From: Sallie.Lemons at MSDW.COM (Sallie Lemons)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:05:54 -0400
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.110554.0400.>

What about Ginger Baker??? Did he have really red hair or am I hallucinating?

Lynne Murphy wrote:

> Bruce asks:
>
> > And to drag this back to topic...however did ginger come to refer to
> > red/orange hair in the UK? I could understand blonde, but red?
>
> It's more usually used for what we'd call strawberry blonde--so it's reddish
> blonde.  You also hear it a lot of cats--a ginger cat--which are not red but
> might have a warm tinge to their blond fur.  People with really red hair are
> more likely to be called 'red-headed'--Ginger Spice excluded (but then she
> did have those blonde streaks).
>
> Lynne


From Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM  Thu Jun  1 15:13:35 2000
From: Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM (Joe Pickett)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:13:35 -0400
Subject: Ich bin ein Berliner
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.111335.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Having eaten a few Berliners myself, my preferred literal translation of
Kennedy's remark has always been

I am a creampuff.

It at least makes watching those old newsreels of his speech more fun.

Joe Pickett
Executive Editor
Houghton Mifflin






"Bruce H. Spencer" <bspencer at UMICH.EDU> on 06/01/2000 10:30:40 AM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Joe Pickett/Trade/hmco)
Subject:  Re: Ich bin ein Berliner



I haven't read the article mentioned earlier, but this story isn't
entirely a myth. Kennedy's statement was not 'grammatically correct'.
German does not use indefinite articles before professions, nationalities,
or cities of origin: Ich bin Professor; Ich bin Amerikaner; Ich bin
Hamburger; etc. Using indefinite articles in these types of constructions
is a common mistake of English speakers learning German.

The pastry in question is very similar to a doughnut with a cream filling,
not jelly.  'Jelly doughnut' isn't a perfect translation, but it's not
totally off the mark.  The problem is that 'Berliner' are not called
'Berliner' in Berlin.  The residents of Berlin call these things
'Pfannkuchen' the rest of Germany calls them 'Berliner'.  Since Kennedy
was speaking in Berlin, I suspect that many people probably didn't think
of the humorous interpretation until after the fact.  For what it's
worth, the phrase 'Ich bin ein Berliner' is very popular in Berlin; I've
seen it used in advertisements to market things as being true to the
spirit of the city. You can also buy postcards with a cartoon drawing of a
'Berliner' (I mean the pastry) with 'Ich bin ein Berliner' in the speech
bubble.


___________________________________________________________________
Bruce H. Spencer
Germanic Languages and Literatures      Office: (734) 764-5365
3110 Modern Languages Building          Fax:    (734) 763-6557
University of Michigan                  E-mail: bspencer at umich.edu
Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1275
___________________________________________________________________


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  1 15:49:00 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:49:00 EDT
Subject: metadata?
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.114900.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 5/31/2000 6:48:43 PM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes:

<< Does the prior generic existence of a word preclude registering it as a
trademark and thus reserving it for that purpose from then on? >>

The short answer is "yes." You can't, for example, register "refrigerator" or
"bicycle."


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun  1 16:01:31 2000
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:01:31 -0400
Subject: Ich bin ein Berliner
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.120131.0400.>

In my first wife's Bavarian household the pastry was known as a Berliner
Krapfen, a pfannekuche being what we'd call a crepe.

-- Reclams Etymologisches Woeterbuc defines Krapfen as "Schmalzgebaeck"
which I take to mean "deep fat fried"
____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
tel:  (740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
(740) 593-2818


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Jun  1 15:59:59 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:59:59 -0400
Subject: metadata?
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.115959.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ron is quite right about the registrability of a term in prior generic
use.  However, that does not preclude the use of common vocabulary,
such as apple, when it is applied to something which it does not
otherwise or normally describe, such as fruit.  This important concept
allowed for the application of the word apple in the context of
computers.  I suppose one could register the name "dictionary" for a
new and distinct variety of apple (the fruit, not the computer).

Regards,
David Barnhart

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Thu Jun  1 16:54:44 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:54:44 -0400
Subject: metadata?
In-Reply-To: <79.4d15e22.2667dfec@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.125444.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 1 Jun 2000 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> In a message dated 5/31/2000 6:48:43 PM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes:
>
> << Does the prior generic existence of a word preclude registering it as a
> trademark and thus reserving it for that purpose from then on? >>
>
> The short answer is "yes." You can't, for example, register "refrigerator" or
> "bicycle."

About four or five years ago, there was a major brouhaha when some
publisher tried to trademark Bear, a common descriptor for burly, hairy,
huggable bearlike gay men.

Anyhow, I know the publisher had gotten fairly far along in the
process, and there was hue and cry, but then I haven't heard anything of
it since, so I'm assuming the publisher lost, since bear is still used
unencumbered by TM language.


--- Steve K.


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Jun  1 17:15:51 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:15:51 -0400
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.131551.0400.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

"Most of the world's 6,000-plus languages will have died out by the end of the
century, experts predicted yesterday. Linguists issued fresh warnings about the perilous
position of the thousands of languages spoken mainly by adults but increasingly rarely
by their children and grandchildren."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/UK/Science/2000-05/languages300500.shtml

--

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at monickels.com
http://www.monickels.com/
AIM: monickels


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Jun  1 17:23:58 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:23:58 -0700
Subject: Ich bin ein Berliner
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.102358.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Bruce H. Spencer" wrote:
>
> The pastry in question is very similar to a doughnut with a cream filling,
> not jelly.  'Jelly doughnut' isn't a perfect translation, but it's not

Hmm, I'm pretty sure the Berliners in Freiburg (im Breisgau) were jelly-filled.
Maybe it's a regional thing?


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Jun  1 17:29:20 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:29:20 -0400
Subject: NWAV abstract deadline
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.132920.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Colleagues:

Not to trouble you, but I remind you that today is the deadline for the
submission of abstracts for the October 2000 NWAV conference (partly
sponsored by our own ADS) at Michigan State.

Go to
http://www.nwav.lin.msu.edu
for the full poop.

dInIs

Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun  1 17:29:42 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:29:42 -0400
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
In-Reply-To: <-1252257149gbarrett@monickels.com> from "Grant Barrett" at Jun
 01, 2000 01:15:51 PM
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.132942.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> "Most of the world's 6,000-plus languages will have died out by the end of the
> century, experts predicted yesterday. Linguists issued fresh warnings about the perilous
                             ^^^^^^^^^^

Yes, they predicted this yesterday. Two weeks ago, linguists thought
that there would be a growth market in books written in Algonquian,
Breton, Ainu, etc. etc.

Jesse Sheidlower


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Thu Jun  1 18:49:09 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:49:09 -0700
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
In-Reply-To: <-1252257149gbarrett@monickels.com>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.114909.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To subscribe to the Endangered Languages list, send an e-mail to

Majordomo at carmen.murdoch.edu.au

In the body of the e-mail, write

subscribe endangered-languages-l

followed by your e-mail (in the same line).

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
Grant Barrett

"Most of the world's 6,000-plus languages will have died out by the end of
the
century, experts predicted yesterday. Linguists issued fresh warnings about
the perilous
position of the thousands of languages spoken mainly by adults but
increasingly rarely
by their children and grandchildren."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/UK/Science/2000-05/languages300500.shtml


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Jun  1 19:05:40 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:05:40 -0400
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.150540.0400.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

On Thursday, June 1, 2000, Grant Barrett <gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM> wrote:
>"Most of the world's 6,000-plus languages will have died out by the end of the
>century, experts predicted yesterday. Linguists issued fresh warnings about the
perilous
>position of the thousands of languages spoken mainly by adults but increasingly
rarely
>by their children and grandchildren."
>
>http://www.independent.co.uk/news/UK/Science/2000-05/languages300500.shtml

I meant to comment when I sent the first email, but I had to go do actual work.

The idea of predicting this sort of thing to me seems at the same time useful and
irritating. I dig the idea of preserving living languages and I think it proper to
sound the alarm, but on the other hand, the original Independent article has been taken
in other forums to indicate that the entire world will speak only English, Spanish or
Mandarin by 2100. This is, of course, not justified by the article or the original
prediction.

This kind of mis-representation of a simple prediction is constantly on my mind
lately as I look into the 1990 New Madrid earthquake prediction. I'm not finished yet,
but the connected dots from the simple first statement to the final non-denouement of
an unfulfilled prediction is a prime example of how concerned professionals ought to
think twice about making these kinds of statements. It's the only way to avoid
misunderstanding, I think.

--

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at monickels.com
http://www.monickels.com/
AIM: monickels


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  1 20:59:07 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:59:07 EDT
Subject: metadata?
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.165907.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is what I've heard at meetings of the Dictionary Society, from those who
ought to know:

Even though you can register a name as a trademark, you cannot prevent people
from using that name in discourse, or even putting it in a dictionary. The
registration means only that others can't use that name to make money by
using your name for their product. For example, the Coca-Cola company can
prevent a grocery story from adverising Pepsi as "Coke," but it cannot stop
people in the southeastern U.S. from calling a Pepsi or other soft drink a
coke, or co-cola, or whatever. Trademark has to do with trade; conversation
has to do with free speech.

Companies want their trademarks to be widely known, which leads to the
likelihood that a trademark will become a generic term: Kleenex and Xerox,
for example. So the lawyers for the companies are vigilant. They send out
threatening letters to makers of dictionaries, for example, if a dictionary
dares to say that a trademark has a generic use. Pusillanimous lexicographers
sometimes retreat; we heard a story not too long ago about "Crackerjack" in
the venerable Dictionary of American English. But no dictionary, from what
I've heard, has ever actually been sued for reporting generic usage of a
trademark, much less lost a suit.

So if you want to use "metadata" not to sell a product of your own but just
to discuss something, ain't no law can stop you. - Allan Metcalf


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  1 20:59:06 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:59:06 EDT
Subject: Ich bin ein Berliner
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.165906.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<< German does not use indefinite articles before professions, nationalities,
or cities of origin: Ich bin Professor; Ich bin Amerikaner; Ich bin
Hamburger; etc. Using indefinite articles in these types of constructions
is a common mistake of English speakers learning German. >>

I remember that rule too. But Reinhold Aman's article, extensively
documented, says that "ein" is an allowable variant. I hope Jerry finds the
citation soon. - Allan Metcalf


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun  1 21:05:44 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:05:44 -0400
Subject: metadata?
In-Reply-To: <11.47843e3.2668289b@aol.com> from "AAllan@AOL.COM" at Jun 01,
 2000 04:59:07 PM
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.170544.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
> Companies want their trademarks to be widely known, which leads to the
> likelihood that a trademark will become a generic term: Kleenex and Xerox,
> for example. So the lawyers for the companies are vigilant. They send out
> threatening letters to makers of dictionaries, for example, if a dictionary
> dares to say that a trademark has a generic use. Pusillanimous lexicographers
> sometimes retreat; we heard a story not too long ago about "Crackerjack" in
> the venerable Dictionary of American English. But no dictionary, from what
> I've heard, has ever actually been sued for reporting generic usage of a
> trademark, much less lost a suit.

But dictionary companies get threatening letters from lawyers all
the time, and these must be responded to, often with research. This
is a real pain.

Companies all the time have statements like the one quoted here
before--"So-and-so is a trademark and you cannot blah blah blah"--
and these statements are, in general, legally meaningless [I am
not a lawyer, but I'm told thus by those who are]. Still, if you
know that by including so-and-so in your dictionary, or using it
generically in published writing, you'll get a huge stack of
legal documents FedExed--whoops, sent--to you, it does have a
certain chilling effect.

Jesse Sheidlower


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Thu Jun  1 21:21:57 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:21:57 -0400
Subject: metadata?
In-Reply-To: <200006012105.RAA21811@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.172157.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 1 Jun 2000 jester at PANIX.COM wrote:

> Companies all the time have statements like the one quoted here
> before--"So-and-so is a trademark and you cannot blah blah blah"--
> and these statements are, in general, legally meaningless [I am
> not a lawyer, but I'm told thus by those who are]. Still, if you
> know that by including so-and-so in your dictionary, or using it
> generically in published writing, you'll get a huge stack of
> legal documents FedExed--whoops, sent--to you, it does have a
> certain chilling effect.

Which relates to the dicey legal issue of entering words like
"McJob," which McDonalds does not look kindly on.

Didn't Hormel lose the suit when they took on the Muppets for using an
evil pigbeast name Spa'am?

--- Steve K.


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Thu Jun  1 21:14:28 2000
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:14:28 -0400
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.171428.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:49 AM 6/1/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>To subscribe to the Endangered Languages list, send an e-mail to
>
>Majordomo at carmen.murdoch.edu.au
>
>In the body of the e-mail, write
>
>subscribe endangered-languages-l
>
>followed by your e-mail (in the same line).
>
>Benjamin Barrett
>gogaku at ix.netcom.com
>

Is there a *daily digest* option, or if no one knows then maybe a URL for
this listserv where one can find out?



Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Jun  1 22:35:47 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:35:47 -0600
Subject: Ich bin ein Berliner
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.163547.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here is the reference for ³Ich bin ein Berliner²:

Reinhold Aman: ³Debunking Kennedy¹s ŒI Am A Jelly-Filled Doughnut¹.²
_Maledicta_ (subtitle: _The International Journal Of Verbal Aggression_),
vol. XI, 1990-1995 [sic], pp.63-64.

---If  anyone is interested in subscribing to Aman¹s _Maledicta_, the
address is: Maledicta Press, P.O. Box 14123, Santa Rosa, CA 95402-6123,
USA. --- Aman is the world¹s foremost expert on the language of verbal
aggression. And although highly interesting, his publication _Maledicta_ is
not for readers who object to X-rated material.

---Here is Aman¹s article (not X-rated) on ³Ich bin ein Berliner²:
(removed by list administrator)

-----That concludes Aman¹s article.

--Gerald Cohen








gcohen at umr.edu


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Thu Jun  1 23:02:30 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:02:30 -0700
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
In-Reply-To: <200006012114.RAA07297@is2.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.160230.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I belonged a couple of years ago, it had a very low volume. A *daily*
digest would probably be more e-mails than individual e-mails.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
Gregory {Greg} Downing

>To subscribe to the Endangered Languages list, send an e-mail to

Is there a *daily digest* option, or if no one knows then maybe a URL for
this listserv where one can find out?


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Jun  1 23:08:53 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:08:53 -0700
Subject: Ich bin ein Berliner
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.160853.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gerald Cohen wrote:
>
> Here is the reference for ³Ich bin ein Berliner²:
>
> Reinhold Aman: ³Debunking Kennedy¹s ?I Am A Jelly-Filled Doughnut¹.²
> _Maledicta_ (subtitle: _The International Journal Of Verbal Aggression_),
> vol. XI, 1990-1995 [sic], pp.63-64.
>
...
>      ³No intelligent native speaker of German tittered in Berlin when J.F.
> K. spoke, just as no native speaker of German, or one who does know this
> language, would titter if someone said ?Ich bin ein Wiener¹ or ?Hamburger¹
> or ?Frankfurter.¹ Only a chuckling chucklehead would translate ?Ich bin ein
> Wiener¹ (?I am a male Viennese¹) as ?I am a sausage¹ (or ?penis¹ or
> ?ineffectual person¹ or ?jerk¹ or ?very serious student¹) Only a tittering
> twit would translate ?Ich bin ein Hamburger¹ (?a male person from Hamburg¹)
> as ?I am a meat patty¹ (or ?hobo¹ or ?beggar¹ or ?scarred prizefighter¹ or
> ?inferior racing dog¹ or ?mixture of mud and skin nutrients¹).  And only a
> babbling bubblebrain would translate ?Ich bin ein Frankfurter¹ (?a male
> person from Frankfurt¹) as ?I am a long, smoked reddish sausage¹...
>

or "hot dog" which name comes from a caption of a cartoon written by Tad
Dorgan...

(Sorry Barry, nothing like combining as many urban legends as possible.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  2 00:52:08 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:52:08 EDT
Subject: Mexican Pizza
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.205208.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    "Mexican Pizza" is not in the OED (revising beginning with "M"?) and not
in Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA.  It's a standard item at Taco Bell, for example.
It's probably an "American" dish.
    I've now gone through GOURMET 1941-1974.
    From GOURMET, March 1974, pg. 100, col. 1:

Q: At El Rancho No. 1 in Austin, Texas, I enjoyed a dish called Mexican
pizza.  Could you get the recipe for me?
SANDRA BAKER
CARROLLTON, TEXAS
A: A happy blend of culinary traditions is this
     _Mexican Pizza El Rancho No. 1_
     Make the pizza dough: Into a bowl sift together 3 cups flour and 1/2
teaspoon each of sugar, baking powder, and salt.  Make a well in the center
and stir in 3/4 cup milk combined with 2 eggs.  Combine the mixture well and
form it into a ball.  Let the dough rest, covered, for at least 15 minutes.
     Make a meat topping: In a skillet saute 1 pound ground round steak in
1/2 stick or 1/4 cup butter for 5 minutes.  Add 1 stalk of celery, 1 small
green pepper, 1 tomato, and 1/2 onion, all diced, and salt and pepper to
taste.  Saute the mixture for 15 minutes, or until the meat and vegetables
are cooked.  Keep the mixture warm.
     Make El Rancho sauce: In a blender put 1 stalk of celery, 1 small green
pepper, 1 tomato, 1/2 onion, and 2 garlic cloves, all chopped, 1 tablespoon
tomato sauce, and 1/2 teaspoon each of oregano and ground cuminseed and blend
the mixture until it is smooth.  Transfer the mixture to a saucepan, add 1
3/4 cups chicken stock (January 1974) or chicken broth, and bring the mixture
to a boil.  Stir in 2 tablespoons flour mixed with 1/4 cup chicken stock, add
salt and pepper to taste, and simmer the sauce for 10 minutes.  Kepp the
sauce warm.
     Divide the dough into 6 pieces.  Roll out 1 of the pieces into an 8-inch
round on a lightly floured surface.  Fry the round in hot deep oil (360
degrees F), turning it once, until it is golden.  Transfer the round to paper
towels to drain.  Continue to roll out and fry the remaining dough in the
same manner.  Arrange the rounds on an ovenproof platter and top them with a
layer of the meat mixture and the sauce.  Sprinkle each round with 2
tablespoons grated Monterey Jack cheese and 1 tablespoon freshly grated
Parmesan cheese and top it with 1 teaspoon sour cream.  Heat the pizzas in a
preheated slow oven (300 degrees F) for 5 minutes, or until the cheese is
melted and the pizzas are hot.  Garnish each pizza with a thinly sliced onion
ring, a green olive, and sliced _jalapeno_ chili peppers.

   T.B. (Taco Bell, not tuberculosis) does it a little differently.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  2 00:52:10 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:52:10 EDT
Subject: Highball; Bloody Bull; Caipirinha
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.205210.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     Half hour to Regis!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
HIGHBALL

     This is from THE OFFICIAL MIXER'S MANUAL (New York, 1934) by Patrick
Gavin Duffy, pg. VIII:

     It is one of my fondest hopes that the highball will again take its
place as the leading American drink.  I admit to being prejudiced about
this--it was I who first brought the highball to America, in 1895.  Although
the distinction is claimed by the Parker House in Boston, I was finally given
due credit for this innovation in the _New York Times_ of not many years ago.

     I checked the New York Times Personal Name Index.  I didn't look at "P.
G. Duffy" (there was another).  "Patrick Gavin Duffy" turned up only one
hit--a review of this and other drink books, such as THE SAVOY COCKTAIL BOOK
(recently reprinted).  From THE NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW, 11 February 1934,
pg. 17, col. 2:

     "The Official Mixer's Manual," by Patrick Gavin Duffy, whose talents as
a concocter of noble beverages are widely and admiringly known, is a book to
keep on the consecrated shelf where Professor Jerry Thomas's immortal "Bon
Vivant's Companion," with an introduction by Herbert Asbury, has long held
the place of honor.  Mr. Duffy's book is arranged in loose-leaf form, bound
in strong voers, and indexed so skillfully that its thousands of drinks (No
Bloody Mary--ed.) can easily be found.  A bartender of the great tradition
himself, Mr. Duffy has served many American notables at the Ashland House.
One of his claims to fame is that he introduced the highball to America.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BLOODY BULL

     From GOURMET, February 1972, pg. 1, col. 2:

     _Hitting the Bull's Eye_
SIRS:  Here is a variation on your Bull Shot recipe ("Gourmet's Menus,"
October, 1971).  I've known people who do not like Bull Shots or Bloody Marys
but come back for seconds when Bloody Bulls are being served.

     _Bloody Bull_
     For each drink put 2 ounces each of tomato juice and beef broth in a
cocktail shaker with 1 1/2 ounces vodka.  Squeeze in the juice of a lemon
wedge and drop in the lemon.  Add a dash of Worcestershire sauce and salt and
pepper to taste.  Cover the shaker and shake the mixture until it is
thoroughly blended.  Strain it into an Old Fashioned glass over ice cubes.
RAY H. WHALEN
WILLOWDALE, ONTARIO, CANADA

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CAIPIRINHA (continued)

     From GOURMET, "Brazil" travel holiday, December 1973, pg. 136, col. 2:

     I began my first lunch with the traditional _batida_, a drink made of
the Brazilian white rum _cachaca_, which I find appealing.  In the course of
my stay I tried most varieties of _batida_: _de limao_ (lime or lemon),
_coco_ (coconut milk), _abacaxi_ (pineapple), _maracuja_ (passion fruit),
_tamarindo_ (tamarind), _goiaba_ (guava), and _tangerina_ (tangerine).  I
found the lime _batida_ the most refreshing and usually not oversweetened.
The preparation is simple enough--lime juice, ice, sugar, and _cachaca_
shaken thoroughly and strained into a small glass.  No ice is added to the
glass.  It is often difficult to get ice for a drink; presumably, if the
drink is served cold, that is enough.  I prefer the other popular Brazilian
rum cocktail, _caipirinha_, which includes tiny pieces of cut-up lime, skin
and all.  The limes have a wonderful flavor.  I was also much taken by the
bottled soft drink _guarana_, made from a shrub, slightly tart and very
refreshing in Salvador's heat.


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Thu Jun  1 23:04:17 2000
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 19:04:17 -0400
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.190417.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I suggest one shouldn't come down too hard on the professionals. Their
"predictions" have a way of becoming considerably garbled by the time
they're seen in print. Anyone remember the "Rumor Clinic' the B'Nai
B'Rith (forgive the spelling, it's from memory and I ain't Jewish) used
to put on?

Bob

Grant Barrett wrote:
>
> > an unfulfilled prediction is a prime example of how concerned professionals ought to> think twice about making these kinds of statements. It's the only way to avoid misunderstanding, I think.
>
> --
>
> Grant Barrett
> gbarrett at monickels.com
> http://www.monickels.com/
> AIM: monickels


From anitagf at MAIL2.GIS.NET  Fri Jun  2 01:48:45 2000
From: anitagf at MAIL2.GIS.NET (Anita G. Foster)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:48:45 -0400
Subject: Etymology of Rap
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000527195258.00b50320@mailandnews.com>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.214845.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For more information on rappin'  - "When I first heard the expression
'rappin'' or 'runnin' a rap,' it had a sexual connotation.  The object of
the rap was to 'get a girl's nose open,' or 'get into her pants.'  The
expression was used in other ways, too, as described in Reality 66."


For additional background see pages 210 to 213 in Herbert L. Foster's
"Ribbin', Jivin', and Playin the Dozens:  The Persistent Dilemma In Our
Schools."  published by Herbert L. Foster Associates, Inc. 1990.  In
Ribbin', I describe, discuss, and explain black male street corner language
and behavior as it is played out in our schools.  Because so many teachers,
black and white, do not understand the black male students' language and
behavior, he is too often referred to special education and caught up in
discipline problems.  see: http:/www.gse.buffalo.edu/fas.Foster/


At 07:56 PM 05/27/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>What is the origin of the term Rap?  The earliest meaning I know of is a
>man's conversation with women in order to "put the moves on her," but as
>far as I know, even that definition is not very old.
>
>Jordan Rich
>Independent Scholar
>http://funkmasterj.tripod.com


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  2 02:23:58 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 22:23:58 EDT
Subject: nine-spot problem & boxed-in thinking
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.222358.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In response to Jesse's query (I'll send more to anyone who asks for it):

The language columnist William Safire, in a May 1995 article in the _New York
Times Magazine_, traces one strand of the origin of the phrase THINK OUTSIDE
THE BOX to "a brain teaser used in 1984 by Development Dimensions
International, management consultants." However, this is the same "brain
teaser" discussed in the preface to Edward Prestwood's 1984 book, _The
Creative Writer's Phrase-Finder_ (Palm Springs: ETC Publications); Prestwood
seeks to explain the difficulties people have in finding solutions to
seemingly difficult problems, and introduces (page vii) the now-famous
nine-dot puzzle, in which the responder is asked to connect all of nine dots
that are arranged in the shape of a box (i.e., in three rows of three dots
each) using only four straight lines, without retracing. As Prestwood notes,
the puzzle cannot be solved at all unless one draws the lines "outside the
boundaries established by the dots"--that is, one must respond unconventionall
y, thinking outside (of) the box formed by the nine dots to find the
(actually quite simple) solution.
     Prestwood does not claim to have invented either the puzzle or the
metaphor, and he indicates (page vii) that he presented it to other persons
and discussed it with them for some time before his book was written ("Some
people have remarked that the given solution is cheating"). Prestwood’s book
was aimed at a small audience (namely, those who were interested enough in
creative writing to buy his book), and it was published by a little-known
publisher. It is thus extremely unlikely that the American pubic at large
could have learned about the nine-dot puzzle and associated phrase
"[thinking] outside . . . the dots" from Prestwood's book. Rather, the phrase
would have had its source in previous (unidentified) usage which Prestwood
(and Development Dimensions International) appropriated, as did many other
persons who came upon the phrase independently.
     The puzzle itself is quite old. The puzzle appears in the following
places: (1). Sam Loyd, CYCLOPEDIA OF PUZZLES. New York: The Lamb Publishing
Company, 1914.
p301. (2). Gerald Lynton Kaufman, THE BOOK OF MODERN PUZZLES. NEW YORK,
DOVER, 1940. p46. [Kaufman gives a hint by placing a tenth dot outside the
nine dots] (3).  J. Travers, A PUZZLE-MINE: PUZZLES COLLECTED FROM THE WORKS
OF THE LATE HENRY
ERNEST DUDENEY. London: Thomas Nelson and Sons, 1951, p66. [Travers uses nine
stars rather than balls or dots. Travers attributes the origin of the puzzles
in his book to Dudeney, "the 'Puzzle King', . . . 'the most ingenious brain in
England'," who published a series of puzzles in the magazine BLIGHTY "during
and after the war of 1914-1918." The appearance of Loyd's CYCOPEDIA in 1914
suggests that he may have a claim for having originated this puzzle. Or
perhaps both stole it from some earlier source?]
     The popular writer Jim Fixx (who is perhaps best known for his books on
fitness & running--and who died of a heart attack while jogging) also
published the puzzle (without attribution) in a book that I took back to the
library without noting its title, but as I recall it was published in the
1960s or 1970s.
     David Barnhart writes that he finds the phrase in 1975. I hope he will
share the particular cite with the rest of us. My own earliest cites are
somewhat later, e.g., in the popular business magazine _Fortune_, 6 February
1984, in an article concerning C. William Gray, President of Gadall, Inc., of
Philadelphia, Ohio: "Gray says he tells his managers to be 'cross-functional'
and to 'think outside the box' of their own specialty" (page 114/3). It
appears in New York City in 1985, spoken by a high-school principal, Victor
Herbert, who is quoted in the _New York Times_ as having said, "We need to
think outside of the box to find radical solutions to a radical problem" (18
March, sec. B, page 10/5). One finds it in the magazine _Inc._ in September,
1985, in an article quoting the Visalia, California, city manager, Ted
Gaebler: "More important, he stresses, government officials must learn to
take risks and seek profits, 'think outside the box,' avoid paperwork and
regulations" (page 55). It is recorded in early 1986 in a letter to the
editor of the trade journal _Advertising Age_, written by an advertising
executive, Jean DeLong Custer, of Cedar Rapids, Iowa, who said, "Phil has
always liked to 'think outside the box'. He is the most innovative media
maven I've encountered" (20 February, page 33). It appears in March 1987 in
the trade journal Indiana Business (page 46), in an article about Thomas D.
Bell, Sr., president of the Hudson Institute of Indianapolis: " . . . when
Bell talks of 'getting outside the box' he's referring to the limits of
thought that many of us impose upon ourselves."


From bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET  Thu Jun  1 19:56:16 2000
From: bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET (Bernard W. Kane)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:56:16 -0400
Subject: preserve us
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.155616.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And then there was the line by (what) famous jazz musician, "Mus' be jelly/
'Cause jam don'  shake like that"?

Bernie Kane
word-finder


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Fri Jun  2 03:38:52 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:38:52 -0700
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
In-Reply-To: <006701bfcba2$da128310$8a70cec0@qwe.graphnet.com>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.203852.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Ginger marmalade!?! Oh frabjous day! I now have a quest...
>
>And so, with the inclusion of ginger marmalade, any simple rule that might
>have been, citrus fruits with peels (the peel qualifier saves us from the
>whole lemon curd issue...)

After examining the label, it's Ginger Marmalade by E. Waldo Ward &
Son.  Ingredients: sugar, ginger root, water, pectin, and lemon
juice.  I, too, had previously thought the difference between
marmalade and preserves was the citrus & rind vs. other pieces of
fruit.

Rima


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  2 04:23:08 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 00:23:08 EDT
Subject: TRUE--the man's magazine
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.002308.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    This is the first time that I've gone through "TRUE-The Man's Magazine."
It looks like it was a competitor of ESQUIRE and PLAYBOY.
     I read the year 1966; popular stories were on sports and the Vietnam
War.  TRUE featured some important writers, such as Isaac Asimov.  There
wasn't a column on Food & Drink, but late-night king Johnny Carson did write
at least one article on drinks.
    The NYPL has holdings from 1960, but the publication began about a few
volumes earlier.
    "Report from Viet Nam" was written by Malcolm W. Browne.  April 1966, pg.
39, is: "'SORRY ABOUT THAT' This is the best-known phrase in a new GI lingo
that's more sophisticated--and cynical--than the old soldier talk of World
Wars I and II."  Terms mentioned include:

dustoff (a helicopter ambulance)
huey (helicopter)
pucker factor (degree of fear)
OP (outpost)
music (water)

     I still haven't found "the whole nine yards," but it may be here.
     Send me any opinions you have on TRUE, or any similar publications that
I might not be aware of.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
WHO WANTS TO WATCH "WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE?"

    I got every question--without the choices.  One contestant couldn't
identify "round up the usual suspects" with the film classic CASABLANCA.  She
thought for what seemed like twenty minutes. Goofy music played in the
background.  You had to know stupid things for the show, like tv sitcom
history and the birth dates of Julia Roberts and Christina Ricci.
    Fred Shapiro owes me an hour of my life!
    Wait a minute--was Fred Shapiro on the show??


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  2 06:47:27 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 02:47:27 EDT
Subject: Is ICJ at The Hague in the Netherlands? (off topic)
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.024727.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Maybe Fred Shapiro can answer this.
    One of the questions on WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE? a few hours ago
was "In what country is the Lockerbie trial taking place?"  The "correct"
answer was The Netherlands.  The trial is taking place at the International
Court of Justice, at The Hague.
    I visited there.  I was told that the ICJ is, technically, not in any
country.  The land belongs to the United Nations.  The ICJ is NOT in The
Netherlands.  True?
    Did Regis blow another one?


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Jun  2 09:47:56 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 05:47:56 -0400
Subject: TRUE--the man's magazine
In-Reply-To: <50.622f706.266890ac@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.054756.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 2 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    This is the first time that I've gone through "TRUE-The Man's Magazine."
>It looks like it was a competitor of ESQUIRE and PLAYBOY.

Not originally. IIRC, I read it in the late 40s and early 50s (compliments
of my uncle Dixie) and thought of it as an outdoor magazine. As I recall,
it featured articles about guns, hunting, outdodor stuff. Everybody in the
family read it.

Bethany


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Fri Jun  2 10:16:44 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:16:44 +0100
Subject: Is ICJ at The Hague in the Netherlands? (off topic)
In-Reply-To: <ba.636a651.2668b27f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.111644.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 2/6/00 7:47 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> Maybe Fred Shapiro can answer this.
> One of the questions on WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE? a few hours ago
> was "In what country is the Lockerbie trial taking place?"  The "correct"
> answer was The Netherlands.  The trial is taking place at the International
> Court of Justice, at The Hague.
> I visited there.  I was told that the ICJ is, technically, not in any
> country.  The land belongs to the United Nations.  The ICJ is NOT in The
> Netherlands.  True?
> Did Regis blow another one?
>

>From what I understand, Holland has ceded a tiny corner of its country to
Scotland (which used to be claimed by the US, I think).  That would be the
only way a Scottish court could, since you don't get English law in Scotland
nor Scots law in England or Wales.  Since Scots law prevails on that tiny
corner, and since Scottish police and British military are the only law
enforcement, *technically* the court is in Scotland.  Kind of like
embassies.

--Aaron

________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
  --Death


From vneufeldt at M-W.COM  Fri Jun  2 12:21:39 2000
From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:21:39 -0400
Subject: metadata?
In-Reply-To: <11.47843e3.2668289b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.082139.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember being told by a legal person a number of years ago that simply
the act of sending such letters as mentioned below fulfills the obligation
of the trademark holder to protect the trademark -- or something like that.
They don't need to pursue the matter past that.  Perhaps someone else on the
list has more complete information on this?

And speaking of dictionary representation of trademarks, one of the sillier
things is the representation of the long-established standard word 'loafer'
for a type of shoe as a trademark in all the major dictionaries in this
country, most without any recognition of its validity as a generic term at
all.  I was very surprised the first time I saw this in a dictionary,
because I could not remember having heard of the actual brand name at all,
and I don't think I've ever seen it to this day.

Victoria
Merriam-Webster, Inc. P.O. Box 281
Springfield, MA 01102
Tel: 413-734-3134  ext 124
Fax: 413-827-7262

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of AAllan at AOL.COM
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 4:59 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: metadata?
>
>
> This is what I've heard at meetings of the Dictionary Society,
> from those who
> ought to know:
>
> Even though you can register a name as a trademark, you cannot
> prevent people
> from using that name in discourse, or even putting it in a dictionary. The
> registration means only that others can't use that name to make money by
> using your name for their product. For example, the Coca-Cola company can
> prevent a grocery story from adverising Pepsi as "Coke," but it
> cannot stop
> people in the southeastern U.S. from calling a Pepsi or other soft drink a
> coke, or co-cola, or whatever. Trademark has to do with trade;
> conversation
> has to do with free speech.
>
> Companies want their trademarks to be widely known, which leads to the
> likelihood that a trademark will become a generic term: Kleenex and Xerox,
> for example. So the lawyers for the companies are vigilant. They send out
> threatening letters to makers of dictionaries, for example, if a
> dictionary
> dares to say that a trademark has a generic use. Pusillanimous
> lexicographers
> sometimes retreat; we heard a story not too long ago about
> "Crackerjack" in
> the venerable Dictionary of American English. But no dictionary, from what
> I've heard, has ever actually been sued for reporting generic usage of a
> trademark, much less lost a suit.
>
> So if you want to use "metadata" not to sell a product of your
> own but just
> to discuss something, ain't no law can stop you. - Allan Metcalf
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun  2 12:31:59 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:31:59 -0400
Subject: TRUE--the man's magazine
In-Reply-To: <50.622f706.266890ac@aol.com> from "Bapopik@AOL.COM" at Jun 02,
 2000 12:23:08 AM
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.083159.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>     "Report from Viet Nam" was written by Malcolm W. Browne.  April 1966, pg.
> 39, is: "'SORRY ABOUT THAT' This is the best-known phrase in a new GI lingo
> that's more sophisticated--and cynical--than the old soldier talk of World
> Wars I and II."  Terms mentioned include:
>
> dustoff (a helicopter ambulance)
> huey (helicopter)
> pucker factor (degree of fear)
> OP (outpost)
> music (water)

Barry, you want to post the actual cites, or just tease us?

Jesse Sheidlower


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun  2 15:00:39 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:00:39 -0700
Subject: Etymology of Rap
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.080039.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well...isn't this typical of the problems with slang.
Meanings vary from neighborhood to neighborhood,
school to school, city to city, ethnicity to
ethnicity, clique to clique, generation to generation,
year to year, and sometimes it seems even day to day.
When I was growing up in the 60's "to rap" meant to
give so-and-so a hard time, to chew them out, to tell
them off.  In the 70's, "to rap" was simply to talk
among friends, casually, with no subject or purpose
implied. The meaning of hitting on or talking up a
member of the opposite sex - female on male as well as
male on female - also fit in there somewhere but was
pretty much context dependent, and therefore often
ambiguous, as I recall.


--- "Anita G. Foster" <anitagf at MAIL2.GIS.NET> wrote:
> For more information on rappin'  - "When I first
> heard the expression
> 'rappin'' or 'runnin' a rap,' it had a sexual
> connotation.  The object of
> the rap was to 'get a girl's nose open,' or 'get
> into her pants.'  The
> expression was used in other ways, too, as described
> in Reality 66."
>
>
> For additional background see pages 210 to 213 in
> Herbert L. Foster's
> "Ribbin', Jivin', and Playin the Dozens:  The
> Persistent Dilemma In Our
> Schools."  published by Herbert L. Foster
> Associates, Inc. 1990.  In
> Ribbin', I describe, discuss, and explain black male
> street corner language
> and behavior as it is played out in our schools.
> Because so many teachers,
> black and white, do not understand the black male
> students' language and
> behavior, he is too often referred to special
> education and caught up in
> discipline problems.  see:
> http:/www.gse.buffalo.edu/fas.Foster/
>
>
> At 07:56 PM 05/27/2000 -0700, you wrote:
> >What is the origin of the term Rap?  The earliest
> meaning I know of is a
> >man's conversation with women in order to "put the
> moves on her," but as
> >far as I know, even that definition is not very
> old.
> >
> >Jordan Rich
> >Independent Scholar
> >http://funkmasterj.tripod.com


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Jun  2 15:18:53 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:18:53 -0400
Subject: Is ICJ at The Hague in the Netherlands? (off topic)
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.111853.0400.>

I think this is a hairsplitting distinction and somewhat academic to the
popular mind.


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Jun  2 15:19:36 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:19:36 -0400
Subject: metadata?
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.111936.0400.>

> In my experience, the letters that trademark lawyers send out to dictionary
> editors are not so much "threatening" as imploring, for reasons already given
> here by others. This is in reference to Allan and Jesse's comments.


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Jun  2 15:19:55 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:19:55 -0400
Subject: metadata?
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.111955.0400.>

Except when, a generic word, after long use in connection with a product,
service, etc. acquires a legal "secondary meaning," as "collegiate"  probably
did in connection with a webster's. Black's Law Dictionary explains "secondary
meaning" in a long paragraph.

"Peter A. McGraw" wrote:

> Does the prior generic existence of a word preclude registering it as a
> trademark and thus reserving it for that purpose from then on?
>
> Peter
>
> --On Thu, Jun 1, 2000 3:02 AM +0000 Joseph McCollum <prez234 at JUNO.COM>
> wrote:
>
> > I think this claim has been decided as frivolous (or it ought to be).  In
> > any case, I would like to know if "metadata" existed as a generic word
> > before 1986 (when the trademark was issued)...My colleagues are sure that
> > it did, but maybe Barry P. or others could confirm it.
> > ------
> >
> ****************************************************************************
>                                Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM  Fri Jun  2 16:02:03 2000
From: Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM (Joe Pickett)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:02:03 -0400
Subject: metadata?
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.120203.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've seen both threatening letters and imploring letters from trademark lawyers,
though the majority I would call letters bearing implied threats of legal
action.  The letters are often very strongly worded.  Bluff or bluster, maybe,
but trouble nonetheless for the persons editing a dictionary.

I would second Jesse's remarks-- it usually comes down to a question of how much
time the lexicographer wants to spend defending the wording of a particular
entry. In my experience, the legal department of the publishing company often
gets involved, and this just complicates things because now the lexicographer is
dealing with two sets of lawyers rather than one.  Invariably, though, the legal
department wants the lexicographer to take the path that involves the fewest
complications (and the least amount of legal work), and this invariably means
revising the definition to "A trademark used for . . . " or dropping the entry
entirely.  Trademark lawyers can also insist on specific editorial treatments.
The American Heritage Dictionary recently dropped the entry for Tarzan, a
trademark held by the Edgar Rice Burroughs estate, simply because we did not
want to accommodate all of the editorial requirements of the estate's lawyers.

The Third Edition of the American Heritage Dictionary devotes a large amount of
space to demonstating the generic use of many trademarks (lowercased, as verbs,
in figurative uses, etc) by using quotations.  I doubt any commercial dictionary
will do the same.

Fighting the general battle in defense of defining "generic" trademarks as
vocabulary items (instead of as trademarks) would require big-time resources and
time committments, assuming any publisher would be willing to take such a stand.
After all, copyright issues are not that different, and publishers own
trademarks too.

It's easy to say that, because no dictionary publisher has ever been
successfully sued over the treatment of a trademark in a dictionary,
lexicographers should pay no mind to the letters from trademark lawyers and edit
trademarks as they deem best.  But the realities of working in a real
institution make such practice virtually impossible.



Joe Pickett
Executive Editor
Houghton Mifflin Company





Thomas Paikeday <t.paikeday at sympatico.ca> on 06/02/2000 11:19:36 AM

Please respond to t.paikeday at sympatico.ca

To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Joe Pickett/Trade/hmco)
Subject:  Re: metadata?



> In my experience, the letters that trademark lawyers send out to dictionary
> editors are not so much "threatening" as imploring, for reasons already given
> here by others. This is in reference to Allan and Jesse's comments.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  2 16:10:27 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:10:27 EDT
Subject: Is ICJ at The Hague in the Netherlands?
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.121027.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As Bill Clinton would have rightly said, this is just a matter of what your
definition of "in" is.

There MAY be some arcane international-law meaning of "in" with respect to
ICJ and this particular trial, but The Hague is most definitely "in" The
Netherlands (according to AHD3, it is in fact the "de facto capital"), and
this particular trial is taking place "in" a courtroom that is located "in"
The Hague.

Tom Paikeday is right--any other interpretration of "in" here contradicts
common sense.


In a message dated 6/2/2000 5:15:46 AM, aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK writes:

<< on 2/6/00 7:47 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> Maybe Fred Shapiro can answer this.
> One of the questions on WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE? a few hours ago
> was "In what country is the Lockerbie trial taking place?"  The "correct"
> answer was The Netherlands.  The trial is taking place at the International
> Court of Justice, at The Hague.
> I visited there.  I was told that the ICJ is, technically, not in any
> country.  The land belongs to the United Nations.  The ICJ is NOT in The
> Netherlands.  True?
> Did Regis blow another one?
>

>From what I understand, Holland has ceded a tiny corner of its country to
Scotland (which used to be claimed by the US, I think).  That would be the
only way a Scottish court could, since you don't get English law in Scotland
nor Scots law in England or Wales.  Since Scots law prevails on that tiny
corner, and since Scottish police and British military are the only law
enforcement, *technically* the court is in Scotland.  Kind of like
embassies.

--Aaron >>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  2 16:20:21 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:20:21 EDT
Subject: Fwd: nine-spot problem & boxed-in thinking
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.122021.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


-------------- next part --------------
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From: RonButters at aol.com
Subject: nine-spot problem & boxed-in thinking
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From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Jun  2 16:26:25 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:26:25 -0700
Subject: Is ICJ at The Hague in the Netherlands?
In-Reply-To: <9f.62331b1.26693673@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.092625.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In any case, I don't think this trial IS taking place in The Hague, and the
case isn't being tried by the ICJ.  NPR's reports of the trial have been
broadcast from Camp Zeist, a military base in the eastern part of the
country, where the Scottish court is trying the case.  If the Netherlands
ceded a parcel of land to Scotland for this purpose, it wasn't in The Hague.

Peter McGraw

--On Fri, Jun 2, 2000 12:10 PM +0000 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> As Bill Clinton would have rightly said, this is just a matter of what
> your definition of "in" is.
>
> There MAY be some arcane international-law meaning of "in" with respect to
> ICJ and this particular trial, but The Hague is most definitely "in" The
> Netherlands (according to AHD3, it is in fact the "de facto capital"), and
> this particular trial is taking place "in" a courtroom that is located
> "in" The Hague.
>
> Tom Paikeday is right--any other interpretration of "in" here contradicts
> common sense.
>
>
> In a message dated 6/2/2000 5:15:46 AM, aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK writes:
>
> << on 2/6/00 7:47 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>> Maybe Fred Shapiro can answer this.
>> One of the questions on WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE? a few hours ago
>> was "In what country is the Lockerbie trial taking place?"  The "correct"
>> answer was The Netherlands.  The trial is taking place at the
>> International Court of Justice, at The Hague.
>> I visited there.  I was told that the ICJ is, technically, not in any
>> country.  The land belongs to the United Nations.  The ICJ is NOT in The
>> Netherlands.  True?
>> Did Regis blow another one?
>>
>
> From what I understand, Holland has ceded a tiny corner of its country to
> Scotland (which used to be claimed by the US, I think).  That would be the
> only way a Scottish court could, since you don't get English law in
> Scotland nor Scots law in England or Wales.  Since Scots law prevails on
> that tiny corner, and since Scottish police and British military are the
> only law enforcement, *technically* the court is in Scotland.  Kind of
> like embassies.
>
> --Aaron >>



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  2 16:27:54 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:27:54 EDT
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.122754.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It may well be that ALL languages will vanish by 2100.


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Jun  2 17:19:26 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 13:19:26 -0400
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.131926.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Only if all people vanish will all languages vanish by 2100.  As a
species we sure do like to make a lot of noise.  Some of it is even
meaningful.

David Barnhart


David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Jun  2 17:34:25 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:34:25 -0700
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
In-Reply-To: <13.612c302.26693a8a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.103425.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, maybe, but I'm brushing up on my Ainu just in case. :)

PMc

--On Fri, Jun 2, 2000 12:27 PM +0000 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> It may well be that ALL languages will vanish by 2100.



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Jun  2 19:10:30 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:10:30 -0400
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.151030.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm looking forward to starting my studies of Zekler this weekend.

David Barnhart

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  3 04:07:43 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 00:07:43 EDT
Subject: Moo Goo Gai Pan; Egg Foo Yong
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUN.2000.000743.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MOO GOO GAI PAN

     OED has done "M," so where is Moo Goo Gai Pan?  OED's one mention is
from VERBATIM, 1980-81, under "agma."
     I'm a vegetarian and I don't order this dish, but I just like saying it!
 Moo Goo Gai Pan!  It sounds like something Jesse's or Erin's kids would
order.
     From GOURMET, March 1957, pg. 64, col. 2:

Q. I want to give a dinner party, Chinese style, and I'd like the recipe for
_moo goo gai pen_, my favorite Chinese dish.
MRS. RUTH TROIANI
POUND RIDGE, NEW YORK
A. _Chacun a son moo goo_, say we!
     _Moo Goo Gai Pen_
     In a heavy skillet heat 3 tablespoons oil, 1 teaspoon salt, and a dash
of pepper.  Add 2 cups cooked chicken, cut in julienne strips, 1/2 cup each
of celery, water chestnuts, and cooked mushrooms, all finely sliced, 1/2 cup
each of _bok choy_ hearts and bamboo shoots, both cut into 1-inch pieces, 1
teaspoon finely minced ginger root, and 1 cup chicken broth.  Cover the pan
tightly and cook the mixture over moderate heat for 5 minutes.
     Stir 2 tablespoons cornstarch to a paste with 2 teaspoons soy sauce and
1/4 cup water, and stir the paste into the vegetable-chicken mixture.  Add 1
cup tender young snow-pea pods, stringed.  Cover the pan tightly and cook the
_moo goo gai pen_ for another minute or two.  Serve it with rice.

     From GOURMET, August 1970, pg. 58, col. 1:

Q. Please give me a recipe for _moo goo gai pan_.
WILLIAM S. CARPENTER
BRIDGEPORT, CONNECTICUT
A. Get out your _wok_ and follow the directions below.
     _Moo Goo Gai Pan_
     _(Chinese Chicken with Mushrooms)_
     Skin and bone 1 chicken breast and cut the meat into cubes.  COmbine 2
teaspoons cornstarch with 1/2 teaspoon salt and 1/4 teaspoon pepper and
dredge the chicken cubes in this mixture until they are evenly coated.  In a
_wok_ or skillet stir-fry 2 or 3 slices of gingerroot and 1 garlic clove, all
minced, in 2 tablespoons oil for 1 minute.  Add the chicken cubes and
stir-fry them for 2 to 3 minutes, or until they begin to brown.  Drain the
liquid from a 4-ounce can of button mushrooms, reserving 1/4 cup, add the
mushrooms to the chicken, and heat them through.  Blend 1 tablespoon
cornstarch into the reserved mushroom liquid and stir the paste into the
sauce until it is thickened.  If desired, 10 to 12 snow peas, 4 water
chestnuts, sliced, and 1 tablespoon oil may be added with the chicken.  Serve
the dish at once.  Serves 4.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
EGG FOO YONG

     OED has 1917 and 1928 citations, but with different spellings.
     From NEW SALADS, BRIDGE LUNCHEONS, CANNED MEALS (1933) by the Chicago
Daily News, pg. 298:

     _EGG FOO YONG_
     Ten eggs, one cup shredded onion, two cups sprouts, one cup finely cut
roasted or boiled cold meat of any kind, or shrimp, lobster, crabmeat or tuna
fish; drain all juice off the sprouts, mix thoroughly with meat and onion,
beat the eggs slightly and add to the mixture.  Divide into equal parts by
using a soup ladle of three-quarters cup capacity, pour gradually into a
frying pan containing one-half inch of very hot fat.  When one side is
browned turn over and brown the other.  For gravy thicken the quantity needed
of good soup stock with cornstarch and brown with brown or soy sauce.  Add
salt and pepper to suit your taste.  Serve hot over egg foo yong.


From nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun  3 06:15:45 2000
From: nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET (Nancy Elliott)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 23:15:45 -0700
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
In-Reply-To: <39367B86.679E4DF8@msdw.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.231545.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

So what makes "lemon curd" curd and not one of those other terms?


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Sat Jun  3 13:07:43 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 14:07:43 +0100
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUN.2000.140743.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Nancy Elliot asked:
>
> So what makes "lemon curd" curd and not one of those other terms?

it has eggs in it.

lynne


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun  3 18:23:07 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 14:23:07 -0400
Subject: Mexican Pizza
In-Reply-To: <b4.60cd11e.26685f38@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUN.2000.142307.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 1 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>     "Mexican Pizza" is not in the OED (revising beginning with "M"?) and not

It is my understanding that the OED has only revised part of the letter M.
In addition, "Mexican Pizza," like many of the items Barry posts
information about, does not seem like a term of sufficient currency or
sufficient status as a fixed combination to merit inclusion in the OED.
The OED does not cover every possible word-combination in the English
language, although it has more than any other dictionary.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun  3 19:51:04 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 15:51:04 -0400
Subject: TRUE--the man's magazine
In-Reply-To: <50.622f706.266890ac@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUN.2000.155104.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 2 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> WHO WANTS TO WATCH "WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE?"
>
>     I got every question--without the choices.  One contestant couldn't
> identify "round up the usual suspects" with the film classic CASABLANCA.  She
> thought for what seemed like twenty minutes. Goofy music played in the
> background.  You had to know stupid things for the show, like tv sitcom
> history and the birth dates of Julia Roberts and Christina Ricci.

The "hot-seat" questions were pretty easy on that show.  Unfortunately,
the "fastest-finger" questions were harder, at least for me.  "Hot seat"
and "fastest-finger" require two different kinds of skills, but to win
anything on the show you have to be good at both.

I was surprised that the contestant didn't know "round up the usual
suspects," which is a major movie quote.  I was also surprised that
another contestant didn't know "mush" as a command to Arctic dogs and
"Vanity Fair" as the title of a Thackeray novel.  In general, the show
reveals the state of Americans' knowledge of history, geography, and
literature to be abysmal.  But, it needs to be pointed out, I could tell
even from coming into proximity with the hot seat that the pressure there
is enormous, and, if a contestant doesn't know that a compass points
north, as happened recently, it probably means that they do know but their
brain went bye-bye in the heat of the moment.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun  3 19:59:17 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 15:59:17 -0400
Subject: Is ICJ at The Hague in the Netherlands? (off topic)
In-Reply-To: <ba.636a651.2668b27f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUN.2000.155917.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 2 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>     Maybe Fred Shapiro can answer this.
>     One of the questions on WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE? a few hours ago
> was "In what country is the Lockerbie trial taking place?"  The "correct"
> answer was The Netherlands.  The trial is taking place at the International
> Court of Justice, at The Hague.
>     I visited there.  I was told that the ICJ is, technically, not in any
> country.  The land belongs to the United Nations.  The ICJ is NOT in The
> Netherlands.  True?
>     Did Regis blow another one?

Although the New York Times recently published an article about my
pointing out that Millionaire was incorrect on a question about the Grace
Murray Hopper bug myth, I was impressed during my day with the show by the
show's obvious concern with accuracy.  It appears to be the only TV game
show that admits errors.

Maybe it is possible for institutions or people to be imperfect without
being lousy or conspiratorial...


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  4 01:33:23 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 21:33:23 EDT
Subject: Anadama/Yami-Dami Bread
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUN.2000.213323.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    "Anadama Bread" has been an etymological puzzle for a long time.  It's a
bread made from cornmeal and molasses.
    DARE cites DIALECT NOTES (1915), lists "NEng," and states "Etym unknown;
for folk-etym, see quots."
    John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK also states that the
term dates in print from 1915.  The often-given etymology is "Anna, damn
her!"  This sounds as convincing to me as "Whose ear?" for Hoosier.
    Another etymology has it that Anna has this on her gravestone:  "ANNA WAS
A LOVELY BRIDE, BUT ANNA, DAMN HER, UP AND DIED."
    From MORE RECIPES FOR FIFTY (Boston, 1918) by Frances Lowe Smith, pg. 17:

    _Yami-Dami Bread_
1 quart boiling water
1 cup rye meal
2 cups corn meal
1/4 cup shortening
1 cup molasses
2 tablespoons salt
1 yeast cake in 1/2 cup cold water
1 1/2 quarts bread flour
1 quart rye or barley flour
     Mix corn and rye meal, add boiling water, stir until smooth.  Add salt,
fat, and molasses; cool.  Add dissolved yeast and bread flour.  Beat well,
and add rye or barley flour to knead as soft as can be handled.  Let rise
over night; shape, let rise until double in bulk, and bake an hour or more in
moderate oven.  Makes three large loaves.

    This "Yami-Dami" spelling (in my opinion) probably kills "Anna, damn
her."  I'll have to check for this spelling on MOA and other databases.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  4 01:51:10 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 21:51:10 EDT
Subject: Chimichangas; more Moo Goo Gai Pan
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUN.2000.215110.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MOO GOO GAI PAN (continued)

    David Shulman came up with 1903 in the METROPOLITAN MAGAZINE (NY), pg.
431, col. 1:  "All the great dishes served in China a thousand years
ago...including...'muy gou guy pen' which is boneless chicken with white
mushrooms."
    I didn't find the Chinese dish on the MOA database, but I might have used
the wrong spelling.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CHIMICHANGAS

    Does "chimichanga" mean "little monkey," as "burrito" is "little donkey"?
 The food item is not in THE FOOD AND DRINK OF MEXICO (1964; reprinted by
Dover Books) by Goerge C. Booth.
    John Mariani states that "chimichanga" was long thought to have been
coined in the 1950s in Tucson, Arizona, but Diane Kennedy's CUISINES OF
MEXICO (1972) states that fried burritos in Mexico are called by the similar
name _chivichangas_.
    From GOURMET, January 1979, pg. 40, col. 2:

    _Chimichangas_
    _(Southwestern Fried Burritos)_
     Make Mexican fried beans, adding 1/3 cup grated Monterey Jack or
longhorn cheese when they have formed a thick paste, and cook the mixture
over moderately low heat, stirring, until the cheese is just melted.  Let the
mixture cool and make flour tortillas.
     Spoon 1/3 to 1/2 cup of the beans onto the lower third of each tortilla,
roll up each tortilla egg-roll fashion, folding in the ends, and secure each
one with a wooden pick.  In a deep fryer fry the _chimichangas_ 2 at a time
in hot deep oil (375 degrees F.) for 2 to 3 minutes, or until they are golden
brown and transfer them with tongs to paper towels to drain.  Remove the
wooden picks, arrange the _chimichangas_ on a flameproof platter, and
sprinkle them with 1//2 cup grated longhorn cheese.  Put the platter under a
preheated broiler 6 inches from the heat for 30 seconds, or until the cheese
is melted.  Spoon 1/2 cup sour cream over the _chimichangas_ and serve them
with tomato sauce with green _chiles_.  Serves 6.

   I'll try to look for "chimichanga" (and "fajita") in 1980s issues of
GOURMET and BON APPETIT, as well as other publications on "Tex-Mex" food.
   About "Mexican Pizza"--it's certainly not just Taco Bell.  "Mexican Pizza"
is not trademarked by anyone.  It's on the SOAR database of online recipes.
It's on EPICURIOUS.com.  GOURMET featured "Mexican Pizza" in April 1996; BON
APPETIT featured "Mexican Pizza" in  December 1996.  There are 1,920 hits on
Google.com.  If OED doesn't want the citation, that's up to them.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun  4 01:53:25 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 21:53:25 -0400
Subject: Moo Goo Gai Pan; Egg Foo Yong
In-Reply-To: <c3.62f0dc2.2669de8f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUN.2000.215325.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>      OED has done "M," so where is Moo Goo Gai Pan?  OED's one mention is

As I stated previously, OED has not completely revised "M" yet.  There are
also issues of whether a term has been sufficiently naturalized to be
included.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sun Jun  4 05:29:04 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 22:29:04 -0700
Subject: Chimichanga origin
In-Reply-To: <200006040400.VAA19346@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUN.2000.222904.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The chimichanga is a type of burrito, and evidently originated in the NW
Mexico/SW US area, though it spread with remarkable rapidity. I found
chimichangas in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois in the early 1980s. There was
an article speculating on its origin in the Arizona Daily Star (Tucson)
several years ago, in the weekly food section, but I don't remember the
details. It may be possible to check the archives of the paper, but I
doubt that they are machine-accessible that far back. The paper maintains
a current electronic form in its AZSTAR.NET.

        Rudy


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Sun Jun  4 08:13:22 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Peggy Lynn)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 03:13:22 -0500
Subject: TRUE--the man's magazine
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUN.2000.031322.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>     This is the first time that I've gone through "TRUE-The Man's Magazine."
> It looks like it was a competitor of ESQUIRE and PLAYBOY.

        <<snip>>

>     "Report from Viet Nam" was written by Malcolm W. Browne.  April 1966, pg.
> 39, is: "'SORRY ABOUT THAT' This is the best-known phrase in a new GI lingo
> that's more sophisticated--and cynical--than the old soldier talk of World
> Wars I and II."  Terms mentioned include:
>
> dustoff (a helicopter ambulance)
> huey (helicopter)
> pucker factor (degree of fear)
> OP (outpost)
> music (water)

OP meaning "outpost" could be a misunderstanding or a misreporting in a
1966 report from Viet Nam.  At any rate, OP meant something else during
the Korean War.  Since this month marks the 50th anniversary of the
start of that war, I feel entitled to elaborate a definition with one
story of what I call "my" war.

In the Korean War, an OP was an "observation post" -- a term with
particlar meaning to artillery spotters.

The Korean War eventually settled into a war with a more or less fixed
battle line, the "MLR" (Main Line of Resistance).  Artillery spotters
worked in OPs in bunkers that were farther advanced than any other
positions on the MLR. (That did make them pretty distant outposts -- but
OP still meant observation post.)

As a medical lab tech, I used to accompany shipments of whole blood from
the 48th United Nations Blood Bank in Tokyo all the way to their
destinations in Korea.  On one trip that took me to a MASH unit almost
on top of the MLR, I noticed that a unit of the 1st Field Artillery
Observation Batallion was nearby. My best friend was in the 1st FAOB,
and I decided to visit him on my next trip.

I had more than a visit in mind.  By custom, a planeload of blood
consisted of  259 cases of whole human blood and 1 empty case for the
courier's gear. Nobody was going to mess with a vital shipment of whole
blood.  We couriers got used to carrying our gear in a knapsack on our
backs, so that the empty case could carry something more important. On
the next trip that brought me close to what I thought was my friend's
post, I filled the courier's case with four bottles of good bourbon.
(We could get all the booze we wanted in Tokyo -- at only $3.00 to $4.00
a fifth for the best brands, since we could buy it free of both taxes
and duty. In theory, there was no good bonded liquor available in
Korea.) When the blood shipment was delivered to the MASH hospital, I
took off to deliver the bottled surprise to my friend.

That's when I discovered that the 1st FAOB was spread out virtually the
whole length of the MLR.  My friend Skip was a couple of hundred miles
away from the unit I caught up with.  Well, I had met several of Skip's
friends in the past. (Ridiculous as it may sound, even in a highly
bureaucratized army of several million soldiers you get used to
traveling along personal networks wherever you go.  After my first duty
post, I never went to any unit in the Medical Corps without finding
someone I knew -- or at least someone who knew a number of people I had
worked with on some previous assignment.) A couple of calls on a
hand-crank field phone located some of Skip's 1st FAOB friends nearby. I
went to their bunker to deliver my precious cargo.

>From the bunker that was their OP, the only way I could see any US or
ROK or UN forces was to look back over my shoulder.  Looking forward,
the only humans I could see were Chinese artillery spotters up ahead of
the Chinese line.  Our guys had such a perfect fix on the Chinese OP
that they used it as their aiming point.  They assumed that the Chinese
returned the compliment.  As a practical proposition, neither side would
call for artillery fire on the other side's artillery OP because it
would have been suicidal. An artillery strike would be returned with
perfect, pinpoint accuracy.

I wasn't totally insane.  I got away from that bunker as fast as I
could, and never went back for another visit.  I saw the guys I had
visited when they came to Japan on R & R a couple of months later.  They
told me that their OP had been overrun by Chinese advances three times
since I had been there.  Each time, they buttoned it up from the inside
and waited a day or two until our side pushed the Chinese back again. I
was extremely impressed, and surer than ever that I would not drop in on
them again.

But I surely had cause to remember that OP meant "observation post" to
the artillery during the Korean War.

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!

P.S.: I agree with Bethany Dumas in recalling that TRUE, the man's
magazine was
largely about shooting and guns and hunting and camping and the outdoors
in the late 1940s to early 50s.  It was a sort of hairy-chested version
of Field and Stream, IIRC.


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sun Jun  4 09:28:36 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 05:28:36 -0400
Subject: Chimichanga origin
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUN.2000.052836.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Rudy Troike wrote:

>The chimichanga is a type of burrito, and evidently originated in the NW
>Mexico/SW US area, though it spread with remarkable rapidity. I found
>chimichangas in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois in the early 1980s. There was
>an article speculating on its origin in the Arizona Daily Star (Tucson)
>several years ago, in the weekly food section, but I don't remember the
>details. It may be possible to check the archives of the paper, but I
>doubt that they are machine-accessible that far back. The paper
>maintains
>a current electronic form in its AZSTAR.NET.

I found:

The earliest written evidence (from Nexis) is provided in the quotation:


Less hungry souls can order more simply from either the "combinaciones"
section, which featured such as tacos, chili relleno or tostada for
$2.95 to $4.55, or from the ala carte section, which offered one
Mexican dish, such as enchiladas,  chimichanga,  tostada and the like,
for $1.20 to $3.95.    Our group managed to hit all the tastes.  Our
son Doug, who hates beans and has a milder aversion to spicy food, was
worried about all the dishes.  Penelope Lemov, The Washington Post,
Oct. 5, 1978, Maryland sect., p 12

Making of America had nothing.


>From the Web I found after a brief search:


If you deep fry a burro, it becomes a chimichanga -- a truly local dish
from
            southern Arizona or northern Sonora. There are many legends
concerning the
            origin of the chimichanga its apparently meaningless name
(some folks insist
            it's a chivichanga). I don't know which, if any, might be
the truth... I'd
            honestly rather eat the things than argue about their
origin.)
http://dizzy.library.arizona.edu/images/folkarts/tucfood.html

I'll keep my eye open for more.

Regards,
David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Sun Jun  4 10:33:06 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 05:33:06 -0500
Subject: Oops!
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUN.2000.053306.0500.>

My apologies to the list. My last message incorrectly shows "Peggy Lynn"
in the space for the sender's name on its header.

Explanation: My wife and I are temporarily sharing one computer for
e-mail and Internet access. (Peggy's computer is down, and I haven't
finished installing programs on its replacement.) Peggy Lynn married me
in 1955; she still uses that name when emphasizing the fact that she is
acting for herself alone.  For all other purposes, she calls herself
Peggy Salovesh.  I call her Peggy and rarely use any surname for her.
She calls me Mike and rarely uses a surname for me.

I stupidly forgot to change the "Identity" box for mail preferences when
it was my turn to use this computer. The message was accepted by the
ADS-L server because this machine can only access a single dialup
account.  ADS-L's server checks the account address, not the sender's
name, when accepting messages from list members.

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!

P.S.:  <salovesh at niu.edu> is an alias for the official account address,
<t20mxs1 at corn.cso.niu.edu>.  We who use the NIU system spent three years
convincing the folks in charge that 1) our official account names are
confusing and counterproductive; 2) the server could easily handle
aliases as alternatives to the official account names; 3) existing
account names and the system behind them would not have to be changed if
aliases were added; and 4) the world wouldn't end if people were allowed
to use aliases if they preferred.  I do and I do, and by golly, that
hasn't ended the world.  Yet.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  4 13:14:04 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 09:14:04 EDT
Subject: Sticky buns; Lord Baltimore Cake; Denver Sandwiches; VIchyssoise
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUN.2000.091404.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

STICKY BUNS

"Now for a real treat!  My sticky buns!"
--Martha Stewart
(O.K., so I made that quote up)

     It's like "buns of steel," only different.
     John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK gives no date:
"Although they are popular throughout the United States, they are often
associated with Philadelphia and sometimes called 'Philadelphia sticky buns,'
although in Philadelphia itself, they are called 'cinnamon buns.'"
     "Sticky buns" is not in the OED.  The franchise that sells these things
is called "Cinnabon."
     From GOURMET, March 1976, pg. 78, col. 1:

     _Philadelphia Sticky Buns_
     In a small bowl proof 1 envelope active dry yeast in 1/4 cup lukewarm
water with a pinch of sugar for 10 minutes.  In a large bowl combine 1 cup
scalded milk with 1 stick (1/2 cup) butter, softened and cut into bits, and
let the mixture cool to lukewarm.  Beat in the yeast mixture, 2 cups sifted
flour, 2 tablespoons sugar, and 1 teaspoon salt and let the sponge stand,
covered, in a warm place for 30 minutes, or until it is bubbly.  Beat in 2
eggs, 1 at a time, beating well after each addition, and 1/2 cup sugar and
stir in 2 1/2 cups sifted flour, 1/2 cup at a time, to make a smooth soft
dough. Turn the dough out on a lightly floured surafce and knead it for 10
minutes, or until it si smooth and satiny.  Knead in additional flour if the
dough is sticky.  Form the dough into a ball, put it in a buttered bowl,
turning it to coat it with the butter, and let it rise, covered, in a warm
place for 1 hour and 30 minutes, or until it si double in bulk.  Punch down
and halve the dough and roll one half into a 14- by 9inch rectangle on a
lightly floured surface.  Spread 2 tablespoons softened butter evenly on the
dough, sprinkle the dough with 1/3 cup firmly packed light brown sugar, 1/4
cup chopped black walnuts, 2 tablespoons currants, and 1 teaspoon cinnamon,
and drizzle 3 tablespoons light corn syrup over the filling.  Beginning at a
short end roll up the dough jelly-roll fashion.  Repeat the process with the
remaining dough.  Pour 2/3 cup light corn syrup into each of two buttered
9-inch-square baking pans, tilting and rotating the pans to distribute the
syrup evenly.  Cut the dough rolls into 1-inch slices, arrange 9 slices cut
side down in each pan, leaving space between them, and let the buns rise,
covered, in a warm place for 45 minutes, or until they are double in bulk.
Bake the buns on the lowest rack of a preheated moderate oven (350 degrees
F.) for 35 to 40 minutes, or until they are well browned.  Invert the buns
onto racks set over jelly-roll pans and let them cool slightly.  Break the
buns apart.  Makes 18 buns.

     This is from WINE AND DINE WITH THE LAKE ROLAND (MD--ed.) GARDEN CLUB
(1935), pg. 129:

     _STICKY BUNS_
2 teaspoons salt
1 pint scalded milk
1/4 pound butter
1/2 cup sugar
     Stir, and when cool add 2 beaten eggs.  Add 1 yeast cake dissolved in a
little warm milk and 1 tablespoon sugar.  Beat with spoon, adding enough
flour (about 6 or 8 cups) to make soft dough.  Cover and let lighten. Pull
dough in sheets, sprinkle with white sugar, cinnamon, raisins and butter.
Roll and cut in buns.  Melt butter in pan and sprinkle with brown sugar, put
buns in and lighten again.  Cook in slow oven about 30 minutes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
LORD BALTIMORE CAKE

    The Lady Baltimore Cake is famous and is well documented in Mariani's
ENCYCLOPEDIA.  THE GENERAL FOOD COOK BOOK (1932) has a long recipe for "Lord
Baltimore Cake" on page 278.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
DENVER SANDWICHES

     DARE has this from 1925 and cites a Sinclair Lewis novel.  I found a
bunch of hits, most from the 1930s.
     From YOUNG PEOPLE'S COOK BOOK, OR, HOW THE DAYTONS COOKED AT HOME AND IN
CAMP (New York, 1925) by Inez N. McFee, pg. 270:

     _Denver Sandwiches._  Combine chopped meat and eggs in an omelet.  Toast
the bread on one side.  Place the mixture between the buttered, untoasted
sides.  Top with shredded cress, camp greens or cabbage salad.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
VICHYSSOISE

     I'll check the NYPL's menus for "Vichyssoise."
     This is from A MEAL IN ITSELF: A BOOK OF SOUPS (1944) by Mary Frost
Mabon, pg. 164:

     _VICHYSSOISE--CENTRAL PARK CASINO_
     (for 6 or 7)
     Lucius Beebe's fans were aroused to such a pitch of enthusiasm when he
published this recipe in the Thirties in his Saturday _New York Herald
Tribune_ column, that for years thereafter he celebrated each anniversary of
its appearance with a different version of the soup.  And even today, the
thirst for Vichyssoise that he reported and that he helped engender rages
unslaked.  So every aspiring hot-doggery now prints a V for Vichyssoise on
its menu, though the soup that is often served under that honorable name
should cause a responsible maitre d'hotel to leave the premises instanter.
Onion-and-flavor-sauce soup is what they should call it, for only the chives
and the chilling bear any relation to the original--a leek soup invented for
Louis XIV.  (...) This is a tried and true recipe, and once you use it you
may never again want to eat the soup out, except possibly at "21" or at Ernie
Byfield's Pump Room in Chicago, where I agree with Beebe that the higher
niceties of gastronomy are observed to the letter.

    I'll plow through Beebe's Saturday columns when I have time.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SMOOTHIE

     OED has a first citation of 1977.
     John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK has:

_smoothie._  A drink with a thick, smooth consistency made from pureeing
fruit with yogurt, ice cream, or milk.  The term dates to the 1970s.

     From GOURMET, July 1978, pg. 104, col. 3:

     _Banana Smoothie_
     In a blender or in a food processor fitted with the steel blade blend 1
banana, sliced, 1/2 cup each of plain yogurt and orange juice, and 3
tablespoons honey at high speed until the mixture is smooth.  Pour the
mixture into a chilled tall glass and sprinkle it with freshly grated nutmeg.
 Makes 1 drink.


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Sun Jun  4 13:36:11 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 14:36:11 +0100
Subject: text messaging lingo
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUN.2000.143611.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's an article in the Saturday magazine in the Guardian (UK)
newspaper about text-messaging on mobile phones and how its popularity
has exceeded expectations, mostly because it's good for flirtation.
Unfortunately, the web version of the article doesn't have the side-bar
glossary of text messages.

http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4024760,00.htm
l

A lot of the glossary involves things like emoticons and obvious things
like 'U = you', 1 = 'one' and '2 = to, too'  (but not two?).  But here
are a few of the less obvious or more texty ones:

ATB - all the best
BCNU - be seeing you
B4  - before
CU L8R - see you later
F2T - free to talk
Gr8, H8, L8, L8R - great, hate, late, later
Luv - love
Mob - mobile
NE - any
NE1 - anyone
NO1 - no one
OIC - oh, I see
PPL - people
RUOK - are you okay
SOME1 - someone
THNQ - thank you
WAN2 - want to  (but Gonna = going to)
Wknd - weekend

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  4 18:19:15 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 14:19:15 EDT
Subject: Fajita & Chimichanga; Golf Slang
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUN.2000.141915.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FAJITA & CHIMICHANGA

     From JANE BUTEL'S TEX-MEX COOKBOOK (1980):

Pg. 97--CHIMICHANGOS Wheat-Flour Tortillas Filled with Beef and Deep-Fried
     In the cities nearest the Mexican border, particularly in El Paso and
Tucson, a new favorite has become established as one of the specialties.  In
restaurants featuring chimichangos, the managements seem to agree that they
have become their most requested dish.  Since the recipe is kept closely
guarded, I found I had to develop this recipe myself after many samplings and
conversations with the secretive restaurants.
Pg. 126--BEEF FAJITAS
     Hailing from the citrus groves of South Texas near Brownsville, this is
an authentic recipe developed by the Mexican citrus workers.  Many so called
fajita marinades and rubs are available, but they are only maufactured and do
not produce the traditional flavors this recipe does.  Chicken breast
flattened (not pounded) or shelled shrimp can be substituted for the beef if
desired.

     From NUEVO TEX-MEX: FESTIVE NEW RECIPES FROM JUST NORTH OF THE BORDER
(1998) by David Garrido and Robb Walsh, pg. 103:

     Fajitas are a Tex-Mex phenomenon.  Ask for fajitas in Mexico City and
you will probably be directed to the nearest lingerie store.  That's because
in Spanish _faja_ means "girdle" and _fajita_ means "little girdle" or
"little belt."  Sound strange?  Well, consider that the word _fajita_
actually describes the same piece of meat we call skirt steak in English.
     The skirt steak was one of the many lower grade beef cuts traditionally
eaten by ranch hands in northern Mexico and Texas.  When the ranch owners
slaughtered a steer, the prime cuts would go to the ranch house and the rest
of the animal would be divided among the help.  Many old border dishes such
as _barbacoa_, from the cow's head, and _menudo_, from the stomach lining,
trace their beginnings to this custom.
     With the advent of refrigeration and commercial slaughterhouses, the old
ranch customs of meat distribution died out.  Ranch hands and ranch owners
bought their beef in the grocery store like everybody else.  By the early
1960s, most Texas butchers threw the skirt steak cuts in with the other
scraps they used for ground meat.  But some butchers in the Lower Rio Grande
Valley put the inner skirt aside for customers who still liked to grill the
fajitas the way it was done in the old days.  One of those traditionalists
was Sonny Falcon.
     Sonny Falcon, the man whom the _Laredo Times_ called the Fajita King,
set up a concession stand and sold his grilled fajita tacos for the first
time at an outdoor festival in Kyle, Texas, in 1969.  Falcon's tacos made
fajitas famous, but they bore little resemblance to what we usually think of
as fajitas.  Falcon used only the thick meat of the inner skirt in his tacos.
 He never marinated the meat.  It was simply trimmed, butterflied (cut in
half lengthwise), grilled, and then chopped against the grain into bite-sized
pieces.
     Falcon's fajitas became a favorite at fairs and outdoor events all over
Texas.  But when people tried to cook Falcon's fajitas at home, they ended up
buying the tough outer skirt because it had the same name and was less
expensive.  The marinades and tenderizing treatments that are associated with
fajitas are a result of this confusion.  But whether they were made with the
tender inner skirt or the tenderized outer skirt, fajitas became such a fad
that the price of fajita meat skyrocketed.
     One of the first establishments to cash in on the fajita craze was the
restaurant in Austin's Hyatt Hotel.  But since fajita meat required so much
preparation, they substituted sirloin.  The Hyatt also began the practice of
serving the sliced, grilled meat with a pile of soft flour tortillas (Pg.
104--ed.) and other taco fillings such as guacamole, sour cream, and salsa,
so that patrons could roll their own tacos at the table.
     The meaning of the Spanish word became fuzzy as more and more
restaurants used the word _fajitas_ to describe a tabletop buffet of grilled
meats, soft tortillas, and condiments.  As a result, any grilled food served
with fillings and tortillas came to be called fajitas, including chicken
fajitas, shrimp fajitas, fish fajitas, and even veggie fajitas.
     For years, Sonny Falcon argued that fish fajitas and chicken fajitas,
which might be translated as fish skirts and chicken girdles, were completely
meaningless terms.  But no one paid much attention to the finer points of
Spanish translation.  Eventually, Falcon gave up.  In his shoort-lived
restaurant in Austin, The Fajita King, he too started serving chicken
fajitas.  "It killed me to do it, but I got tired of trying to explain it to
everybody," Falcon conceded.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
GOLF SLANG

THE LITTLE BOOK OF GOLF SLANG:
FROM FRIED EGGS TO FROG HAIRS, WORDS TO HELP YOU PASS AS A GOLFER
by Randy Voorhees
Andrews McMeel Publishing, 1997
92 pages, $4.95

    This book escaped my radar because it was with all those small "checkout
counter" books and not with the slang books.  There is no bibliography, no
etymologies.  Accept it like one of those internet lists of terms.
     Included are:

Ace, Afraid of the dark, Airmail, Albatross, Amateur slide, Backdoor,
Backhander, Bail out, Banana ball, Barky, Be the ball, the Beach, Bite,
Blade, no Blood, Bo Derek, Bob Barker, Bogey train, Bomb, Borrow, Boss of the
moss, Brassie, Broom, Bunt, like a Butterfly with sore feet, Cabbage, Can,
Carpet, Cart girl, Cart golf, Cellophane bridge, Center cut, Central America
putt, Chew, Chili dip, Comebacker, Cuppy, Cut, Dance floor, Dead, Deuce, Die
it in the hole, Digger, Double dip, Down and dirty, Downtown, Draino, Drive
for show and putt for dough, like a Dropped cat, Dub, Duck book, Duffer, Egg,
Elephant burial ground, Elephant's ass, hit it Fat, Feather, Flat bellies,
Flier, Flop shot, Flub, Fluffy, Flying elbow, Four-jack, Fried egg, Frog
hairs, Frosty, Fuzzy, Gas, Get down, Get up, Gimme, Go to school, Golf
lawyer, Golf widow, Good good, Greenie, Grinder, Grip it and rip it, Grocery
money, Grow teeth, Growl, Hacker, Hand mashie, Hanging, Hog's back,
Hollywood, Home hole, Horses for courses, Hooding the club, Hot, Hunching,
Iffy lie, In my pocket, In the leather, In the linen, Is that any good?,
Jail, Jaws, Jerk, Juice, Juicy lie, Jump, Jump on it, Jungle, Junk, Kick,
Knee-knocker, Knife, Knockdown, Knuckleball, Lag, Large, Launched, Lay the
sod over it, Leaf rule, Leak oil, Leaner, Lip out, Liz Taylor, Lockjaw, Long
and wrong, Lurking, Make the turn, Members bounce, Military golf, Milk the
grip, Monday's children, Money player, Move, Muff, Mulligan, Nassau, Nasty, a
Natural, the Neck, Needle, never in Never up, the Nineteenth hole, Nip it,
Nuked, OB, On the deck, On the screws, One a side, Oscar Brown, Overcook it,
Paint job, Peg, Pencil bag, Pencil hacker, Pick it, Pigeon, Pill, Pinch,
Pitch and putt, Plate, Play 'em down, Plugged, Pond ball, Pop, Pose, a
Position, Preferred lie, Press, Pro side, Pull, Punch, Push, Put a tack on
it, Quail high, Quick, Rake, Rattle it in, Ready golf, Ringer, a Rinse,
Robbed, the Rock, Roll it, Rope hook, Routine, Run, S-word, Sandbagger,
Sandy, Scats, Scrape it around, Scratch, Scuff, Set them up, Shag bag, Shape
it, Shooting the lights out, Short grass, Short stick, Shotgun start, Sitter,
 Skull, Sky, Slam-dunk, Slice, Slider, Smile, Smother hook,Snake, Snap hook,
Sniper, Snowman, Spinach, Spraying, Stake it, Stand on it, Stick, Sticks,
Stiff, Stoney, Stop the bleeding, Striped it, Suck back, Sucker pin, Take it
deep, Talk to it, Tester, Texas wedge, That dog will hunt, Three-jack,
Throw-up range, Tight, the Tips, Toe, Top, Tossing balls, Touch, Tracking,
Trap, Trouble shot, Trouble wood, Turn it over, Ugly, Up and down, Valleys,
Victory lap, Waggle, Weekend warriors, Whiff, Wind cheater, Windmill hole,
WInter rules, Wolf, Woodpecker, Work the ball, Worm burner, X, Yips, You da
man!, the Zone.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  4 20:58:59 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 16:58:59 EDT
Subject: Vietnam slang article in TRUE (April 1966) (LONG!)
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUN.2000.165859.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    O.K., here's a delayed Veteran's Day special.  But Jesse, it's long!
    No "nine yards."
    From TRUE, April 1966, pg. 39:

_Report from Viet Nam_
_"SORRY ABOUT THAT"_
_This is the best-known phrase in a new GI lingo that's more
sophisticated--and cynical--than the old soldier talk of World Wars I and II_
By MALCOLM W. BROWNE

     _"There'll be an OIF over you in two zero.  Give him some smoke when you
have him in sight so he'll see you as friendlies.  The fac will be calling
veenaf tacair on Charlie about one click south of you.  This could be a
little hairy.  How's your ammo and charlies?"_
     (...) Nowadays in Viet Nam the above paragraph in italics, translates to
mean:
     "There'll be a light, single-engine spotter plane over you in 20
minutes.  Throw out  a smoke signal grenade when you see him so he can
identify you.  The forward air controller (fac) will be directing Vietnamese
Air Force (VNAF, pronounced 'veenaf') tactical air power (tacair)
fighter-bombers on the Viet Cong ('Charlie' in this case means the enemy who
can also be 'Victor Charlie')(RHHDAS 1965--ed.) about one kilometer south of
you.  This could be a bit dangerous.  How are your ammunition and food
("charlies" now denoting C-rations)(RHHDAS?--ed.) holding up?"
     To further illustrate the complexities of today's jargon, the radio
conversation between headquarters and outpost might continue as follows:
     "We still have our _basic loads_ (the ammunition we started with) and
sufficient charlies for tonight, but we're running out of _music_
(water)(RHHDAS?--ed.).  Can you get some in by _huey_ (helicopter)(RHHDAS
1962--ed.) pretty soon?"
     "Roger.  Do you require _dustoff_ (a helicopter ambulance)(RHHDAS 1964,
1967, 1968--ed.)?"
     "Negative, but the _pucker factor_ (degree of fear) _would be lower_
(we'd breathe easier) if he could _orbit_ (fly around our area) for awhile.
_Incoming small arms from a whisky romeo 247389 is picking up_ (small arms
fire is increasing from the direction marked on the map by the coordinates
WR247389), and Charlie might be planning to knock off our _OP_ (outpost).  Is
dustoff airborne?"
     "_That's affirm_ (yes, it is), and _wilco on the orbit_ (will comply
with your request to stay in the air).  _Out_ (end of transmission)."
     (...)
     You may be told to "shove it," but no longer to "blow it out your
barracks bag."  For breakfast, mess halls still serve "unmentionable on
shingles," and GI's down on their luck are still advised to have the chaplain
punch their "TS cards."  But the big changes have been from words to numbers
and abbreviations, the increased use of deliberately involved language, and
the introduction of Vietnamese words, often mispronounced.
     (...) (Pg. 96, col. 1--ed.)
     Helicopters, for example, may carry such descriptive labels as
"Iroquois," "Chinook," and "Husky," but no self-respecting serviceman would
be caught saying them.  "Huey," for the HUIA chopper and its widely-used
descendants for some reason is all right, but for the rest, it must be H-34,
H-37, HH-13, and so on.  Or rather, to make things even messier,
pronunciation should be phonetic, so that instead of calling a "Husky" by
that name or even "HH-43," it's a "Hotel-Hotel-Four-Three."
     Yet strangely in this man's army, a few really exotic weapons manage to
earn and keepp proper names.  Thus, there is the "Lazy Dog"--a cluster of
sharpened steel projectiles with fins, which when dropped by jet fighters
over the Vietnamese jungles produces high casualties.  And there is "Puff the
Magic Dragon," a two-engine C-17 transport plane fitted with a six-barrelled
machine gun capable of firing 6,000 bullets per minute, also used in jungle
mop-ups.  In contrast, GI's use the letter-number designations even for such
unlikely things as can openers (P-38) and canned crackers, cheese spread and
marmalade (B-1, B-2, B-3).
     This lust for numbers also carries over into language picked up in
foreign lands.
     From the American occupation of Japan, the phrase "number one" (from the
Japanese "ichiban," meaning very good, the best) found a permanent place in
GI talk.  By extension, "number ten" came to mean very bad, the worst.
(RHHDAS 1953--ed.)  The occupation of Japan is over, and very few of the GI's
now running our war have ever been to Japan.  But still, people all over
(Col. 2--ed.) the world, including Vietnamese, are learning from our troops
that "number one" is good English meaning "the best."
     Viet Nam has added two other numbers to soldier-sailor lingo: 33 and 35.
      The number 33 (in Vietnamese, "bamouiba") is always associated with the
best selling local brand of beer: "33 Export."  (I noticed numbers on
cigarette brands when I was there--ed.)  "Bamouiba," as it is universally
known, has a kick like a mule, and some say it'll give a man anything from
peptic ulcers to leprosy.  (In fairness, I should note that I have thrived on
this brew for years with no ill effects.)  In tribute to the power of
bamouiba, a GI who has served a full one-year tour in Viet Nam is supposed to
have so proved his mettle that he's entitled to the "bamouiba ribbon."  There
are even street merchants in Saigon who sell "bamoiba ribbons"--cloth
replicas of the beer labels--to GI's game enough to sew them to their caps.
     But more important to Vietnamese-American relations is the number "35."
Viet Nam is a superstitious nation and in the mystical worlds of astrology
and numerology, the number 35 means goat.  The goat in Viet Nam is a symbol
of untiring and voracious sexual lust.  Thus, "goat," or "35," or the
Vietnamese word for 35, "bamouilam," all mean "wolf," or even "dirty old man."
     So when a sweet young thing at a bar flickers her eyelashes at you and
giggles, "Tee-hee!  You are bamouilam," she is saying literally, "you are
35."  But that's not what she means.  It goes without saying that bamouilam
is a number dear to the hearts of American fighting men, and it's an
important part of their vocabulary.
     (...)(Col. 3--ed.)(Discussion of Vietnamese and French words--ed.)
     Each of America's past wars has produced synonyms for the word "girl,"
which is possibly the most important word in the GI vocabulary.
     In Germany there was "schatzy," in France there was "amaselle," and in
Japan there was "moose" (derived from the Japanese "musume," meaning girl or
daughter).  Since Korea was close to Japan, Korean girls also become
"mooses."(RHHDAS 1951--ed.)
     But the Korean War is long past, so "moose" will not do for Viet Nam.
Some GI's know and use the words "co-dep" ("pretty girl") in referring to
Vietnamese girls.  It hasn't completely caught on yet, so you also hear such
old standbys as "broad" and "dish" when a sexy Miss walks by.
     The American military establishment in Viet Nam has, of course, produced
a huge crop of letter abbreviations, all known and used as part of the new GI
jargon.
     Some samples: "macvee" (from MACV, meaning Military Assistance Command
Vietnam), "arvin" (from ARVN, meaning Army of the Republic of Viet Nam),
"rag" (River Assault Group), "juspow" (from JUSPAO, meaning Joint U.S. Public
Affairs Office) and "you-som" (from USOM, meaning U.S. Operations Mission,
the old name for the U.S. Aid Mission).
     (...) (Pg. 97, col. 1--ed.)
     The word "you-som" (USOM) is very close in pronunciation to the
Vietnamese words meaning "breast of a Chinese woman."  Thus, when a U.S. Army
officer grimly says, "We've got to get USOM to send some powdered milk down
to that hamlet," he may get muffled laughter from a Vietnamese listener and
not know what he said to produce it.
     Because today's GI's love to find ways to understate and overcomplicate
what they have in mind, you never "shoot," "rocket" or "bomb," you "expend
ordnance."  And when you fire a 3.5-inch rocket right into the chest of a
Viet Cong, blowing him into hamburger, it is proper to say that you have
"really spoiled his day."  (Precursor of Clint Eastwood's "Make my
day"?--ed.)  It was in Viet Nam that the phrase now used all over the
world--"sorry about that"--came into being.  It supposedly was first uttered
by a field surgeon as he was about to amputate the smashed leg of a Special
Forces man.
     So far, the GI's have failed to find a really derogatory name for their
enemy.  In past wars it has been "Huns" or "Krauts" for Germans, "Japs" for
Japanese, "Gooks" for Korean, and so on.  The French used to refer to their
Vietnamese enemy as the "Viets," but GI's have found nothing stronger than
"Charlie," unless you count "hostile personnnel." (...)


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Mon Jun  5 04:03:27 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 00:03:27 -0400
Subject: patina & outsource
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.000327.0400.>

I recant the following comment on "OK". On second thoughts (uninspired),
the wheel, sliced bread, okay, okey-doke, etc. may be idle questions but
not OK. Sorry about that. Someone please copy to Allen. Not that he
would care.
-----------------------------------------
Thomas Paikeday wrote (May 22/2000, Victoria Day, under the influence):

Another nonlinguist asks, "Who first used 'outsource'?" An idle question
to me, like who first used OK (Sorry Allen, if you are listening), who
invented the wheel, sliced bread, etc. But an answer from anyone with
access to good databases would be appreciated.

Thanks to Fred Shapiro for helping.


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Jun  5 08:25:38 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 04:25:38 -0400
Subject: Chimichanga origin
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.042538.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More on chimichanga.   The origins appear to be disputed.  The "urban
legend" of its origin is found in the following:

Food historians differ on where the term " chimichanga"  originated and
whether it loosely translates as "toasted monkey." But there's no
mistaking that this deep-fried tortilla stuffed with beef, potatoes,
chilies and other seasonings has become a staple of Southwestern
cuisine. They're a specialty at El Charro Cafe.... Jerry Shriver, �The
50 Great Plates of America,� USA TODAY (Nexis), May 26, 2000, p. 6D

For continuous operation by one family, El Charro sets a record. Monica
Flin, daughter of a Mexican woman and a French stone mason, was 40 when
she opened El Charro in 1922 in a lava rock home constructed in the
1880s by her father. The menu reflected her dual heritage: Enchiladas,
tacos and a savory French rack of lamb.  Flin, who died at age 96 after
marrying and divorcing the same man seven times, claimed to have
invented the cheese crisp and the chimichanga, a deep-fried burro. When
her health declined in the 1970s, family members Carlotta and Ray
Flores took over El Charro, now run by their daughter, Candace, Flin's
great-great-great niece.  Barbara Yost, �From Fare To Excellent; The
Evolution Of Valley Dining; How Restaurants Got From Tacos And Steaks
To Ahi And Arugula,� Arizona Republic (Nexis), May 7, 2000, p F1


Regards,
David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From rothuno at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  5 16:40:52 2000
From: rothuno at AOL.COM (Jeff Rothlisberger)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:40:52 -0500
Subject: Attention Financial Planners
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.114052.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Would you like to earn extra revenue by originating loans for your clients? If so, please contact Jeff with Mortgage Express at rothuno at aol.com or visit us at www.mortgx.com


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Jun  5 17:07:21 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:07:21 -0700
Subject: Attention Financial Planners
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.100721.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You have spammed a discussion list, and it is not appreciated.

--On Mon, Jun 5, 2000 11:40 AM -0500 Jeff Rothlisberger <rothuno at AOL.COM>
wrote:

> Would you like to earn extra revenue by originating loans for your
> clients? If so, please contact Jeff with Mortgage Express at
> rothuno at aol.com or visit us at www.mortgx.com



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Jun  5 17:10:03 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:10:03 -0700
Subject: Oops!
In-Reply-To: <414851.3169188441@dhcp-218-202-108.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.101003.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Darn!  Excuse me, everybody--I thought I was replying to the spammer.
Foiled again!

Peter

--On Mon, Jun 5, 2000 10:07 AM -0700 "Peter A. McGraw"
<pmcgraw at linfield.edu> wrote:

> You have spammed a discussion list, and it is not appreciated.
>
> --On Mon, Jun 5, 2000 11:40 AM -0500 Jeff Rothlisberger <rothuno at AOL.COM>
> wrote:
>
>> Would you like to earn extra revenue by originating loans for your
>> clients? If so, please contact Jeff with Mortgage Express at
>> rothuno at aol.com or visit us at www.mortgx.com
>
>
>
> *************************************************************************
> *** Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From ookpik at MINDSPRING.COM  Mon Jun  5 17:19:42 2000
From: ookpik at MINDSPRING.COM (J. Katherine Rossner)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 13:19:42 -0400
Subject: Oops!
In-Reply-To: <424619.3169188603@dhcp-218-202-108.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.131942.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:10 AM 6/5/00 -0700, Peter McGraw wrote:
>Darn!  Excuse me, everybody--I thought I was replying to the spammer.
>Foiled again!

Peter,

You're excused, for my part, but you might want to note for the future that
replying directly to a spammer is NOT a good idea in any case:  it only
tells him/her that your email address is a valid one!

Better is to use whatever command your mailer has for showing full headers
(in Eudora, that means clicking on the "blah blah blah" button next to the
.sigs one), then forward the full-header copy to the administration or
"root" at the originating Internet connection, with a note that this is
spam and requesting that they deal with the sender.

Our spammer, for example, seems to have forged an AOL return address; "full
headers" appears to indicate that he was a UGA student.  It's not quite
clear to me whether that's the real originating address or one related to
the listserv, but I did send a copy to root at uga.edu, with apologies if I'm
misreading.

Katherine
--
Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche is chaunge
Withinne a thousand yere, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem, and yit they spake hem so.
        - Chaucer, "Troilus and Criseyde"


From faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Jun  5 17:58:39 2000
From: faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 13:58:39 -0400
Subject: Oops!
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000605131450.009577e0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.135839.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

J. Katherine Rossner wrote:
>At 10:10 AM 6/5/00 -0700, Peter McGraw wrote:
>>Darn!  Excuse me, everybody--I thought I was replying to the spammer.
>>Foiled again!
>
>Peter,
>
>You're excused, for my part, but you might want to note for the future that
>replying directly to a spammer is NOT a good idea in any case:  it only
>tells him/her that your email address is a valid one!
>
>Better is to use whatever command your mailer has for showing full headers
>(in Eudora, that means clicking on the "blah blah blah" button next to the
>.sigs one), then forward the full-header copy to the administration or
>"root" at the originating Internet connection, with a note that this is
>spam and requesting that they deal with the sender.
>
>Our spammer, for example, seems to have forged an AOL return address; "full
>headers" appears to indicate that he was a UGA student.  It's not quite
>clear to me whether that's the real originating address or one related to
>the listserv, but I did send a copy to root at uga.edu, with apologies if I'm
>misreading.

Nope...All of the UGA stuff has to do with the listserve that
processes ADS-L mail. These two header lines indicate where the mail
reached UGA from:

At 11:40 AM -0500 6/5/00, Jeff Rothlisberger wrote:
>Received: from kx2.lh.net (kx2.lh.net [216.81.128.204]) by crockett.cc.uga.edu
>          (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA31238 for
><ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>; Mon,
>          5 Jun 2000 12:42:22 -0400
>Received: from reznor ([216.81.208.189]) by kx2.lh.net (InterMail
>vK.4.02.00.10
>          201-232-116-110 license fa447d7e5453d7b15649594624cecde5) with SMTP
>          id <20000605164052.PPWL336.kx2 at reznor> for <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>;

Whois gives the following information, for both IP numbers in these headers:

Whois user[@<whois.server>]: 216.81.208.189

[whois.arin.net]
Lighthouse Communications, Inc. (NETBLK-LHNET-BLK-01)
    1707 Financial Center
    Des Moines, IA 50309
    US

    Netname: LHNET-BLK-01
    Netblock: 216.81.128.0 - 216.81.223.255
    Maintainer: LH

    Coordinator:
       Manske, Bryan  (BM2003-ARIN)  manske at LH.NET
       515-244-1115 (FAX) 515-244-0972

    Domain System inverse mapping provided by:

    NS1.LH.NET                  207.48.52.200
    NS2.LH.NET                  207.48.52.201

    ADDRESSES WITHIN THIS BLOCK ARE NON-PORTABLE

    Record last updated on 16-Jun-1999.
    Database last updated on 5-Jun-2000 05:44:17 EDT.

The ARIN Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Network Information: Networks, ASN's, and related POC's.
Please use the whois server at rs.internic.net for DOMAIN related
Information and whois.nic.mil for NIPRNET Information.

* Whois complete 6/5/00     1:53:32 PM  *

This is who to complain to, if you think they'd pay any attention (I don't).


 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                    new, improved email: faber at pop.haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories            old email, if you must: faber at haskins.yale.edu
New Haven, CT 06511 USA           tel: (203) 865-6163 x258; fax (203) 865-8963


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Jun  5 19:14:33 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 15:14:33 -0400
Subject: CNN story
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.151433.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bruce Dykes <bkd at GRAPHNET.COM> writes:

>>>>>
Heres a link to a CNN story about all the US towns who want to call
themselves Silicon or Digital Whatever...

     [...]

Alexandria, Louisiana's Silicon Bayou.
North Albuquerque, New Mexico's Silicon Mesa.
Oak Ridge, Tennessee's Silicon Hollow.
Phoenix, Arizona's Silicon Desert.

Silicon Desert is the most amusing so far, and I have no idea how Oak Ridge
plans to shed "Nuclear Hollow". 8-)
<<<<<

Cape Cod is calling itself the Silicon Sandbar.

My first reaction on reading the news of that was, "Obviously!... But it's
really silica."

-- Mark

This document was created with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Mon Jun  5 22:21:36 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:21:36 -0500
Subject: successful fires
In-Reply-To: <b2.605de3f.266b0be3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.172136.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Some months ago I walked down Broadway heading for the NYCity
Archives.  I crossed Canal St. just as the fire dept. was stowing its
gear after putting out a fire in a low and rather ratty looking
builidng that's somewhat of a landmark in the area, since it housed
"Pearl River", a Chinese department store.  Later that day I
overheard a couple of guys talking who had heard a news report on the
fire and were speculating as to where exactly it had been.  I told
them what I had seen, and they placed the building immediately.  Then
I said, "It looked like a pretty successful fire."  They both smiled
and nodded and added a few similar pleasantries, showing that they
were New Yorkers of the old breed.  My father never passed a burned
building without giving it a connoisseur's eye and pronouncing it "a
successful fire" or otherwise.

In the next few days I did a random but unscientific sampling of
friends.  The general results were that the young people I know
didn't know the phrase, and the non-New Yorkers didn't know it
either.  My wife, who's my age but was born to respectable parents in
southwestern Pennsylvania, tells me that she had never heard it until
she came to the big city and began consorting with low company, such
as me and my father.  Actually, I only asked two New Yorkers of my
own age.  One, when I asked him if he used or recognized the phrase,
immediately said "The old Jewish lightning, eh?"  He was born and
raised in the Bronx, and is as Irish as Paddy's pig.(1)  I was
surprised that the other, born and raised in Brooklyn, I believe, and
as Jewish as -- but I don't know a parallel expression -- didn't know
it.  Does any one out there use it?

Whether RHHDAS, vol. 3, will have "successful fire" is hidden in the
mists of time.  It does not have "Jewish lightning" among its
phrases beginning with the word "Jewish".

I have been sitting on this note until I could get my hands on Jenna
Weissman Joselit's book "Our Gang: Jewish Crime and the New York
Jewish Community," (Bloomington: Indiana U. Pr., 1983,) since I
thought I remembered that she had reproduced a relevant cartoon.  Her
discussion of arson as a tool of business management is on pp. 36-39.
 It begins "Of all the offenses commonly associated with New York
Jews, arson, or "Jewish lightning," as it was popularly called,
received the most attention."  (pp. 36-37)  She does not give a
printed contemporary source for "Jewish lightning".  The cartoon
turned out to be from Puck and undated, and not directly relevant
with regards the expression.  It had been captioned "Adding Insult to
Injury"; frame #1 showed members of a volunteer fire company in a
businessman's office, asking him to contribute toward the purchase of
a new fire engine.  In frame #2, the businessman, ("Mr. Burnupski")
throws an inkwell and a bottle at the fleeing firemen.  The caption
is: "Mr. Burnupski (excitedly)  So hellup me Fadder Abram!  Asks me
to hellup dem puy a new undt more bowerful engine ven der oldt von
put oudt four fires in mein store in der last six months!"

For the benefit of those of you who are young, or respectable, or not
New Yorkers, I will explain that the expression carries a cynical
imputation that the fire had been started on purpose, in order to
collect on the fire insurance.  The more completely the building was
destroyed, the more "successful" the fire.

(1)  I admit to never having heard spoken the expression "as Irish as
Paddy's pig", and to having seen it only once, in a book from the
late 1920s about low life in NYC.  A very major gambler and criminal
power-broker and financier named Arnold Rothstein had been murdered.
An Irish-born cleaning woman who worked in the hotel where Rothstein
was last alive said that she had seen him talking to a man she
described as "a big feller, and as Irish as Paddy's pig".  The cops,
reasoning shrewdly, thought that the description was not
inappropriate for George McManus, who was considerably taller than 6
feet and who was on poor terms with Rothstein.  Nothing came of this.
 Rothstein's murder generated a lot of heat but even more pressure to
cover it up, and covered up it was.

GAT


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  6 01:10:25 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:10:25 EDT
Subject: New York Times responds
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.211025.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Yesterday, the New York Times acknowledged an error.  My name had been misspelled in the April 1996 article.  There was a correction in last Sunday's Times on page 2.  Four years later!
   An Abuzz.com message mentioned this correction (search using "New York Times" and "Lisa Carparelli" and "Big Apple" as key words), and then added:

   As for your additional claim, our research establishes that the earliest known reference to "the Big Apple" as a nickname for New York City is in a 1909 book, "The Wayfarer in New York," by Edward S. Martin (Macmillan).  That reference is cited in a 1993 Oxford University Press book, "The City in Slang," by Irving Lewis Allen.
   So with respect, we do not share your belief that the term originated with two African-American stable hands.  At most, a reporter from The Morning Telegraph overhead it being used by stablehands and then popularized it.
   We are glad to correct the record on the spelling of your name, but we believe that's all the correction that is due.  (...)
--Lisa Carparelli, spokeswoman, The New York Times

   Is William Safire alive?
   Who made this judgment on The New York Times?  An etymologist or a reporter?
   "Our research establishes..."  We've ALL acknowledged that citation--me, Gerald Cohen, the RHHDAS.  It's taken out of context.  It was used metaphorically.
   Did you talk with Charles Gillett?  No?  Well, he's dead!  His obituary gave "Big Apple" credit to Damon Runyon.  I've mentioned this thousands of times, but that was never corrected.
   Has anyone seen my research?  Has anyone else checked out National Apple Month/Week in every single New York City newspaper for 1909, 1910, 1911, 1912, 1913, 1914, 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918, 1919, 1920, and so on?  "The Big Apple" was hiding all of those years, huh?
   "The Big Apple" was also hiding on every computer database we know, huh?
   Walter Winchell's early columns don't use "the Big Apple."  Ever think of why not?  Ever read through every single one of them?
   So "Big Apple Corner"--that was signed into law by the mayor--doesn't deserve any coverage at all?
   This is a disgrace to African-Americans, the John J. Fitz Gerald, to Charles Gillett, and, of course, to me.
   If William Safire is still alive, he should find out which reporters on his paper are dabbling in etymology.  And he should tell them they're wrong.  And he should write about it.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  6 01:40:22 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:40:22 EDT
Subject: Comfort Food
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.214022.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

COMFORT FOOD

   John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK has:

_comfort food._  Any food that a person considers to put him at ease, often as part of nostalgia for a favored childhood food.  Often it is of a soft consistency, like mashed potatoes.  In her book _Comfort Food_ (1986), Sue Kreitzman wrote of her subject...

   It wasn't exclusively "her" subject.
   I have "comfort pie" from at least the 1960s.  It may or may not have influenced the term.
   BON APPETIT, May 1978, cover: "Exclusive M.F.K. FISHER ON COMFORT FOODS."  The contents page has:

THE MIDNIGHT EGG AND OTHER REVIVERS...72
By M.F.K. Fisher--Foods that comfort!  Some well-chosen words from the doyenne of American food writers.

   The story on pg. 73, col. 1 begins:

   A cold potato at midnight...," and at about the turn of our century, a Midwestern writer put this haunting phrase in one of her forgotten essays, although I can find no reference to it.  I remember it clearly from when I first heard it in about 1940.  She was lonely.  She felt comforted, or perhaps merely revived, when she could sneak down to the silent family kitchen and pull out a boiled potato from a bowl of them in the icebox.  As I see it now, she ate it standing up in the shadows, without salt, but voluptuously, like a cat taking one mouseling from a nest and leaving the rest to fatten for another night.
   In general, there is a clear difference between revivers and comforters, of course aside from their equal importance in our survival.
   Most of us have a few private revivers, which we administer knowingly to ourselves, usually in the company of one or more companions.  Comforters we eat or drink alone.  Revivers demand a certain amount of public ceremony and can be cold or hot, no matter how plain, but comforters are a private ritual and almost always warm.

   Maybe I'll take out a nice big apple and cry some more for another ten years.


From amy at W-STS.COM  Tue Jun  6 03:46:21 2000
From: amy at W-STS.COM (Amy West)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 23:46:21 -0400
Subject: Berliner
In-Reply-To: <95991848401@europa.your-site.com>
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.234621.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:35:47 -0600
>From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
>Subject: Ich bin ein Berliner
>
>
>
>     „Haven¼t those chuckling ignoramuses ever heard of polysemy?  Even
>though åBerliner¼ is also used in northern Grmany to mean åjelly-filled
>doughnut,¼ when someone says åIch bin (ein) Berliner,¼ it means åI am a
>male person from Berlin¼ only. ...
>
>      „No intelligent native speaker of German tittered in Berlin when J.F.
>K. spoke, just as no native speaker of German, or one who does know this
>language, would titter if someone said åIch bin ein Wiener¼ or åHamburger¼
>or åFrankfurter.¼ Only a chuckling chucklehead would translate åIch bin ein
>Wiener¼ (åI am a male Viennese¼) as åI am a sausage¼ (or åpenis¼ or
>åineffectual person¼ or åjerk¼ or åvery serious student¼) Only a tittering
>twit would translate åIch bin ein Hamburger¼ (åa male person from Hamburg¼)
>as åI am a meat patty¼ (or åhobo¼ or åbeggar¼ or åscarred prizefighter¼ or
>åinferior racing dog¼ or åmixture of mud and skin nutrients¼).  And only a
>babbling bubblebrain would translate åIch bin ein Frankfurter¼ (åa male
>person from Frankfurt¼) as åI am a long, smoked reddish sausage¼...

I'd like to add the following:

1) I was familiar with the Berliner double-entendre *before* I spent
the summer in Kassel in 1988. There the Berliners were jelly-filled.

2) yep, it's more colloquial to leave out the definite article before
occupations and nationalities.

3) Aman evidently hasn't met any of my husband's relatives: the
Wursts ("sausage"). And, yes, Germans do laugh at it. Some German
(ahem, Bavarian) friends have teased him about it to his face, and my
poor father-in-law, Dick Wurst ("thick/fat sausage"), will be the
object of many a snigger when he travels to Germany in September.

>     åAs a male native of åBayern¼ (Bavaria), it is correct for me to state,
>åIch bin ein Bayer,¼ åI am a Bavarian.¼ If some ignoramus chuckles that it
>_really_ means åI am an aspirin,¼ I¼ll shove a wiener up his nose.¼¾
>
>-----That concludes Aman¼s article.

Well, that explains everything...he's a Bavarian.

---Amy "ain't no way I'm takin' that last name if I'm gonna be a
Germanist" West


From buku at GOODNET.COM  Tue Jun  6 03:11:43 2000
From: buku at GOODNET.COM (Victoria Pittman)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 20:11:43 -0700
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.201143.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Please unsubscribe...Off to Europe for a few weeks.

Thanks
Victoria
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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  6 05:11:44 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 01:11:44 EDT
Subject: Berliner
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.011144.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BERLINER PFAUNKUCHEN

"I am a Berliner Pfaunkuchen."
--John F. Kennedy

   From OUR FRIENDS' RECIPES (Sioux City, Iowa, 1918), pg. 112:

   _BERLINER PFAUNKUCHEN_
   The day before needed cook until soft one pound prunes with several slices of lemon and sugar to sweeten.  Roll enough coffee cake dough on well-floured board to cover and cut into squares about two inches long.  Put in center of each one teaspoon chopped prunes which have been slightly warmed.  Now pinch the corners well together, round, turn upside down and put on well-floured board in warm place until light.  Drop in hot fat until brown and sprinkle with powdered sugar.

--------------------------------------------------------
   Next Tuesday (June 13th), I'll leave for a short research trip to Pittsburgh & Chicago.  It's hard to believe I ever held anything against Chicago!
   I'll try to say something nice about New York City:
   It's nice The New York Times can judge that my "Big Apple" work is wrong without seeing it.
   It's nice that The New York Times can judge that my other work wasn't plagiarized without investigating it.
   It's nice that the late Convention & Visitors Bureau President Charles Gillett now has his position filled by a woman whose sole qualification is that she had sex with the mayor.
   It's nice that Hillary Clinton is running for Senator in New York.
   I CAN'T DO IT!  I CAN'T DO IT!!


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  6 15:20:47 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:20:47 EDT
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.112047.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/5/2000 11:36:29 PM, buku at GOODNET.COM writes:

<< Please unsubscribe...Off to Europe for a few weeks.


Thanks

Victoria >>

this is not the way you do it--please find out HOW to unsubscribe and do it
properly


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  6 15:52:44 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:52:44 EDT
Subject: BERLINER, (TOILET/TERM) PAPER, & determiners
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.115244.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Amen!

If I say to a stranger in the next public-toilet stall, "Do you have the
paper?" they will not think I mean 'the newspaper' or 'your term paper'--even
though "the paper" would have to mean 'the newspaper' or 'your term paper' in
other pragmatic situations, and even though the normal way of requesting the
desired information would be "Do you have any paper?" They may think I am a
foreigner, however. (Or that I believe that this particular public toilet has
only one roll available to all.)


In a message dated 6/5/2000 11:20:07 PM, amy at W-STS.COM writes:

<< Haven t those chuckling ignoramuses ever heard of polysemy?  Even

>though åBerliner  is also used in northern Grmany to mean åjelly-filled

>doughnut,  when someone says åIch bin (ein) Berliner,  it means åI am a

>male person from Berlin  only. >>


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun  6 15:57:30 2000
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 08:57:30 -0700
Subject: Pfaunkuchen
In-Reply-To: <c6.620b517.266de210@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.085730.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, it seems that that fancy recipe has omitted the central ingredient
of "Pfaunkuchen," which is a peacock. ... unless, Barry, you intended for
that first U to be an N instead.

But the combination of prunes and a peacock sounds irresistible, doesn't
it? Reminds one of that old Pennsylvania Dutch recipe for cumquats and
badger.

Peter R.

On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> BERLINER PFAUNKUCHEN
>
> "I am a Berliner Pfaunkuchen."
> --John F. Kennedy
>
>    From OUR FRIENDS' RECIPES (Sioux City, Iowa, 1918), pg. 112:
>
>    _BERLINER PFAUNKUCHEN_
>    The day before needed cook until soft one pound prunes with several slices of lemon and sugar to sweeten.  Roll enough coffee cake dough on well-floured board to cover and cut into squares about two inches long.  Put in center of each one teaspoon chopped prunes which have been slightly warmed.  Now pinch the corners well together, round, turn upside down and put on well-floured board in warm place until light.  Drop in hot fat until brown and sprinkle with powdered sugar.
>


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Tue Jun  6 16:16:48 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:16:48 -0700
Subject: BERLINER, (TOILET/TERM) PAPER, & determiners
In-Reply-To: <26.6a2a207.266e784c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.091648.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Although I agree with the thrust of your point, if someone in the next stall
to ask me if I had the paper, I would assume he wanted the newspaper and I
would hand him the sports section because I never read that part. If he had
a non-English accent, I might reply with, "Do you mean toilet paper?"

To me, asking, "Do you have any paper" requires "over there?" for it to be
understood as toilet paper.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
RonButters at AOL.COM

Amen!

If I say to a stranger in the next public-toilet stall, "Do you have the
paper?" they will not think I mean 'the newspaper' or 'your term
paper'--even
though "the paper" would have to mean 'the newspaper' or 'your term paper'
in
other pragmatic situations, and even though the normal way of requesting the
desired information would be "Do you have any paper?" They may think I am a
foreigner, however. (Or that I believe that this particular public toilet
has
only one roll available to all.)

In a message dated 6/5/2000 11:20:07 PM, amy at W-STS.COM writes:

<< Haven t those chuckling ignoramuses ever heard of polysemy?  Even

>though åBerliner  is also used in northern Grmany to mean åjelly-filled

>doughnut,  when someone says åIch bin (ein) Berliner,  it means åI am a

>male person from Berlin  only. >>


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Jun  6 17:02:15 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:02:15 -0400
Subject: successful fires
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.130215.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GEORGE THOMPSON <thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU> writes:

>>>>>
     [...]  A very major gambler and criminal
power-broker and financier named Arnold Rothstein had been murdered.
An Irish-born cleaning woman who worked in the hotel where Rothstein
was last alive said that she had seen him talking to a man she
described as "a big feller, and as Irish as Paddy's pig".  The cops,
reasoning shrewdly, thought that the description was not
inappropriate for George McManus, who was considerably taller than 6
feet and who was on poor terms with Rothstein.  Nothing came of this.
 Rothstein's murder generated a lot of heat but even more pressure to
cover it up, and covered up it was.
<<<<<

Aha! So that's the reference of one of the half-stanzas in a long poem by Ogden
Nash that I memorized many years ago:
     See Rothstein pass like breath on a glass,
     The original Black Sox kid.
     He riffles the pack, riding piggyback
     On the killer whose name he hid.
We usually associate Nash with light verse in grotesquely long, unmetered lines
with absurd rhymes, but "A Tale of the 13th Floor" is a Halloween (or
Walpurgisnacht) ghost story/morality tale, rigorously rhymed and metered in the
stanzas of Oscar Wilde's "Ballad of Reading Gaol".

-- Mark

   Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist and Manager of Acoustic Data
          Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc.
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/

This document was created with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun  6 17:35:10 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:35:10 -0400
Subject: successful fires
In-Reply-To: <852568F6.005D96B9.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.133510.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:02 PM -0400 6/6/00, Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:
>GEORGE THOMPSON <thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU> writes:
>
>>>>>>
>     [...]  A very major gambler and criminal
>power-broker and financier named Arnold Rothstein had been murdered.
>An Irish-born cleaning woman who worked in the hotel where Rothstein
>was last alive said that she had seen him talking to a man she
>described as "a big feller, and as Irish as Paddy's pig".  The cops,
>reasoning shrewdly, thought that the description was not
>inappropriate for George McManus, who was considerably taller than 6
>feet and who was on poor terms with Rothstein.  Nothing came of this.
> Rothstein's murder generated a lot of heat but even more pressure to
>cover it up, and covered up it was.
><<<<<
>
>Aha! So that's the reference of one of the half-stanzas in a long poem by
>Ogden
>Nash that I memorized many years ago:
>     See Rothstein pass like breath on a glass,
>     The original Black Sox kid.
>     He riffles the pack, riding piggyback
>     On the killer whose name he hid.
>We usually associate Nash with light verse in grotesquely long, unmetered
>lines
>with absurd rhymes, but "A Tale of the 13th Floor" is a Halloween (or
>Walpurgisnacht) ghost story/morality tale, rigorously rhymed and metered
>in the
>stanzas of Oscar Wilde's "Ballad of Reading Gaol".
>
>-- Mark
>
and for the uninitiated, the "Black Sox kid" reference in the Nash line
Mark quotes is to Rothstein's legendary role (rumored or actually
confirmed?) as the major figure responsible for bribing the underpaid and
ill-treated 1919 Chicago White Sox to throw (deliberately lose) the World
Series of that year to the heavy underdog Cincinnati Reds.  (all very well
depicted in the John Sayles movie "Eight Men Out" from the Eliot Asinof
book of the same name.)  This, in turn, bequeathed us "Say it ain't so,
Joe" (supposedly a disillusioned kid beseeching Shoeless Joe Jackson, one
of the eight bribees later permanently banned from baseball) and,
eventually, "Field of Dreams".  Quite a legacy for Mr. Rothstein.

larry


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Jun  6 17:46:06 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:46:06 -0700
Subject: Berliner
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.104606.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> BERLINER PFAUNKUCHEN
>
> "I am a Berliner Pfaunkuchen."
> --John F. Kennedy
>
>    From OUR FRIENDS' RECIPES (Sioux City, Iowa, 1918), pg. 112:
>
>    _BERLINER PFAUNKUCHEN_

Pfannkuchen.  Somebody somewhere misread the first 'n'.

>    The day before needed cook until soft one pound prunes with several slices of lemon and sugar to sweeten.  Roll enough coffee cake dough on well-floured board to cover and cut into squares about two inches long.  Put in center of each one teaspoon chopped prunes which have been slightly warmed.  Now pinch the corners well together, round, turn upside down and put on well-floured board in warm place until light.  Drop in hot fat until brown and sprinkle with powdered sugar.

This sounds remarkably like Hamentaschen (or Homentaschen, if you'd prefer),
except that it's not folded triangularly.


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Tue Jun  6 18:37:47 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:37:47 -0400
Subject: Scottish word, +
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.143747.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a recently completed visit to the mainland of Orkney, someone gave me
a term that seems to have several meanings.  The word is ferrylouper.
As we were leaving the island, I picked up a copy of a local paper that
contained an article titled:  The Ferrylouper, A short story by Laura
Barnett.  In _The Orcadian_ (Kirkwall), 25 May 2000, page 19.

The word is mentioned at the following website:
http://www.landscaperesearch.org.uk/graphics/extra25/webster.htm

Aaron and others with more knowledge are expected to correct any errors
in my comments.  One person on Orkney used ferrylouper to refer to
English, in particular, who came to the island, bought property, and
stayed for about a year, before being driven out by the climatic
conditions.  He noted that you could often spot where such folk lived
because, typically, they painted their houses chalk white.  So, he might
point to a particularly white house, and say 'ferrylouper'.  Others used
the term to refer to any outsiders who stayed for a while.  One person
said that in the islands further north, it was used to refer even to the
typical resident of mainland Orkney, in the sense of being an outsider.
I encountered English visitors who claimed to have no knowledge of the
term.

------------

Before leaving the states, at BWI, I heard a dispatcher ask a shuttle
bus driver 'how is your hardball?'  The driver replied 'not good; a lot
of these people (the passengers) are from the long-term (parking) lot'.
Next to the driver was a tip box, containing only a few bills.  My
presumption was that hardball referred to tips.  Corrections
appreciated.

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Jun  6 19:47:35 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:47:35 -0700
Subject: 21 Reasons why the English language is hard to learn
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.124735.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 21 Reasons why the English language is hard to learn

     1.  The bandage was wound around the wound.

     2.  The farm was used to produce produce.

     3.  The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.

     4.  We must polish the Polish furniture.

     5.  He could lead if he would get the lead out.

     6.  The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert.

     7.  Since there is no time like the present, he thought it
           was time to present the present.

     8.  A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.

     9.  When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.

    10.  I did not object to the object.

    11.  The insurance was invalid for the invalid.

    12.  There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row.

    13.  They were too close to the door to close it.

    14.  The buck does funny things when the does are present.

    15.  A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer line.

    16.  To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow.

    17.  The wind was too strong to wind the sail.

    18.  After a number of injections my jaw got number.

    19.  Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear.

    20.  I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.

    21.  How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  6 20:48:09 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:48:09 EDT
Subject: toilet talk
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.164809.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, gee, my sense is that men in adjoining stalls do not ask each other for
ANYTHING unless absolutely necessary--that there is a sort of taboo against
speaking to strangers in public toilets (let alone making requests for
reading material!). If somebody asked me, "Do you have the newspaper over
there?" I would be stunned. Why would he think I had "the" newspaper in a
public toilet?

I grant you, if this were, say, a dormitory, where the inhabitants were more
or less known to each other, that would be a different matter. But I said
"strangers" and "public" toilet.

In a message dated 6/6/2000 11:18:03 AM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:

<< Although I agree with the thrust of your point, if someone in the next
stall

to ask me if I had the paper, I would assume he wanted the newspaper and I

would hand him the sports section because I never read that part. If he had

a non-English accent, I might reply with, "Do you mean toilet paper?"


To me, asking, "Do you have any paper" requires "over there?" for it to be

understood as toilet paper. >>


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Tue Jun  6 20:56:07 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:56:07 -0700
Subject: toilet talk
In-Reply-To: <ac.6098d7d.266ebd89@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.135607.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Good point. I would ignore the person in the next stall. My *interpretation*
would be that he was asking for a newspaper. If it were the dorm, I would
hand over the sports section.

I would probably assume that the person in the stall next to me *heard* me
turning the paper.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

BTW, when I said "non-English," I meant non-native.

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
RonButters at AOL.COM

Well, gee, my sense is that men in adjoining stalls do not ask each other
for
ANYTHING unless absolutely necessary--that there is a sort of taboo against
speaking to strangers in public toilets (let alone making requests for
reading material!). If somebody asked me, "Do you have the newspaper over
there?" I would be stunned. Why would he think I had "the" newspaper in a
public toilet?

I grant you, if this were, say, a dormitory, where the inhabitants were more
or less known to each other, that would be a different matter. But I said
"strangers" and "public" toilet.

In a message dated 6/6/2000 11:18:03 AM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:

<< Although I agree with the thrust of your point, if someone in the next
stall to ask me if I had the paper, I would assume he wanted the newspaper
and I
would hand him the sports section because I never read that part. If he had
a non-English accent, I might reply with, "Do you mean toilet paper?"

To me, asking, "Do you have any paper" requires "over there?" for it to be
understood as toilet paper. >>


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Jun  6 21:14:38 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:14:38 -0400
Subject: "soundbitten"
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.171438.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Observed in the wild:

...natural selection-- the evolutionary process most commonly soundbitten as
"survival of the fittest"

     N.Y._Times_, Tues 2000-5-30, p.D2.
     col. 2, para. 2
     Natalie Angier
     "A Conversation with Geoffrey Miller"

   Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist and Manager of Acoustic Data
         Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc.
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
                     (speaking for myself)


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  6 21:35:54 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:35:54 EDT
Subject: the vital importance of grammar in everyday life
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.173554.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/6/2000 3:58:06 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:

<< Good point. I would ignore the person in the next stall. My
*interpretation*

would be that he was asking for a newspaper. If it were the dorm, I would

hand over the sports section.


I would probably assume that the person in the stall next to me *heard* me

turning the paper. >>

Well, this just goes to demonstrate the vital importance of grammar in
everyday life! Here we see a case where a grammatical error could lead to not
getting toilet paper when it is really needed!

Good point yourself, gogaku. I should have made it clear that I was assuming
that I didn't actually HAVE a newspaper (I assume further that the majority
of people in toilet stalls do not have newspapers). Even so, since the use of
toilet paper in a toilet is pretty fundamental (no pun intended), I find it
difficult to believe that the interpretation of THE PAPER to mean 'the toilet
paper' would not occur to most people (despite the non-native use of the
determiner). Such an interpretation is made even more likely by the form of
the question--"Do you have the X?"--which entails that the questioner does
not know whether or not the hearer actually has X. Absent a rustling
newspaper, it is hard for me to see why 'newspaper' is a greatly better
interpretation than 'cigarette paper' or 'term paper'.


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun  6 21:41:41 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:41:41 -0700
Subject: toilet talk
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLADGECHFGAAAKHDNAEENEJAA.gogaku@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.144141.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I can't believe I'm joining this thread, which is becoming more amusing
every minute, but I have to second Benjamin's interpretation.  I would find
it highly irregular (?) to be addressed by my neighbor under those
circumstances, and especially odd to be asked for the newspaper, but that's
still how I would interpret "the paper" in that or any other context where
there hadn't been prior conversation that unambiguously identified which
kind of paper was being discussed.

Peter

P.S.  This does NOT mean, however, that I think anybody in that Berlin
crowd thought JFK was claiming relatives in the doughnut family.

--On Tue, Jun 6, 2000 1:56 PM -0700 Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM>
wrote:

> Good point. I would ignore the person in the next stall. My
> *interpretation* would be that he was asking for a newspaper. If it were
> the dorm, I would hand over the sports section.
>
> I would probably assume that the person in the stall next to me *heard* me
> turning the paper.
>
> Benjamin Barrett
> gogaku at ix.netcom.com
>
> BTW, when I said "non-English," I meant non-native.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
> RonButters at AOL.COM
>
> Well, gee, my sense is that men in adjoining stalls do not ask each other
> for
> ANYTHING unless absolutely necessary--that there is a sort of taboo
> against speaking to strangers in public toilets (let alone making
> requests for reading material!). If somebody asked me, "Do you have the
> newspaper over there?" I would be stunned. Why would he think I had "the"
> newspaper in a public toilet?
>
> I grant you, if this were, say, a dormitory, where the inhabitants were
> more or less known to each other, that would be a different matter. But I
> said "strangers" and "public" toilet.
>
> In a message dated 6/6/2000 11:18:03 AM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:
>
> << Although I agree with the thrust of your point, if someone in the next
> stall to ask me if I had the paper, I would assume he wanted the newspaper
> and I
> would hand him the sports section because I never read that part. If he
> had a non-English accent, I might reply with, "Do you mean toilet paper?"
>
> To me, asking, "Do you have any paper" requires "over there?" for it to be
> understood as toilet paper. >>



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  6 21:41:22 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:41:22 EDT
Subject: Pfaunkuchen
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.174122.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  The book said "pfaunkuchen," so that's what I typed.  I thought it might have been wrong.
  There are a number of interesting recipes (some German)in the book: Mohn Kipfel; Snow Balls; German Coffee Cake No. 1; German Coffee Cake No. 2; Schnecken; Bundt Cake; Twist Bread.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Jun  6 23:38:42 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:38:42 -0700
Subject: the vital importance of grammar in everyday life
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.163842.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It seems to me that understanding what the person in the next stall meant by
"the paper" would hinge on whether the person had a non-English accent.  I can
imagine thinking that there was supposed to be a newspaper in the stall I was
in, assuming the person asking for it knew that (perhaps a regular in these
parts), and wanting me to hand it over. OTOH, if she has an accent, I might more
readily understand the need for toilet paper.

Which reminds me of an experience Louis Goldstein (? Larry, is that his last
name?) of Haskins Lab (at the time) related. As a phonologist, he was adept at
pronouncing foreign languages without a discernable accent.  He was in the
Netherlands somewhere, and knew some Dutch.  He would go into a shop, made some
simple inquiries in Dutch, at which point the shopkeeper would respond with a
fluent stream of Dutch which he could not understand.  Since his pronunciation
was impeccable, the shopkeepers would determine that Louis difficulty with
understanding or producing words stemmed from the fact that he was retarded!
Apparently this happened more than once.  I don't know if he decided to try it
just as an experiment after awhile.

Just goes to show the advantage of an accent...
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "The Angry Child" Aardman Animations

RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/6/2000 3:58:06 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:
>
> << Good point. I would ignore the person in the next stall. My
> *interpretation*
>
> would be that he was asking for a newspaper. If it were the dorm, I would
>
> hand over the sports section.
>
> I would probably assume that the person in the stall next to me *heard* me
>
> turning the paper. >>
>
> Well, this just goes to demonstrate the vital importance of grammar in
> everyday life! Here we see a case where a grammatical error could lead to not
> getting toilet paper when it is really needed!


From gibbens at EROLS.COM  Wed Jun  7 00:46:27 2000
From: gibbens at EROLS.COM (Elizabeth Gibbens)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:46:27 -0400
Subject: Generation Jones
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.204627.0400.GIBBENS@EROLS.COM>

http://www.generationjones.com/

The creator of this Web site was featured on a nice little story at the end of tonight's Marketplace.

Elizabeth
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From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Wed Jun  7 01:21:36 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:21:36 -0700
Subject: the vital importance of grammar in everyday life
In-Reply-To: <33.615442e.266ec8ba@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.182136.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have to agree with Peter that this is more amusing than most threads.

First off, I want to stress that I am not trying to befuddle or irritate
Ron. My point is simply that my interpretation is different than his, and in
fact, when I first commented on this thread, I genuinely believed that Ron
had simply overlooked the normal interpretation. I believe this is a matter
of pragmatic interpretation as well as grammar.

I do read the newspaper in the bathroom (the room of refuge at home), but I
don't smoke (in or out of the restroom), so cigarette paper wouldn't occur
to me. As for term papers, well it just seems silly (even more than the
thread itself!) that someone might ask me for any dissertation much less
*the* dissertation in the john.

This is why if the questioner had a non-native accent, I might analyze what
part of his grammar was making the question strange. I might then figure out
that he means *any* toilet paper.

I can only interpret Ron's interpretation to mean that he doesn't and has
never thought of reading the newspaper in the bathroom, hence his
interpretation.

If I had no newspaper, my neighbor asked me for *the* paper, *and* I somehow
felt obliged to reply, I would say I didn't have *one*.

As for the grammar, if the form of the question were, "Is there any paper
over there?" I would assume toilet paper to be the object being asked for.
But, "Do you have the paper?" is definitely a newspaper to me. Not to say
that others don't have other interpretations.

Again, my earlier posts were not intended to be inflammatory, and I
apologize if they appeared that way.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
RonButters at AOL.COM

In a message dated 6/6/2000 3:58:06 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:

<< Good point. I would ignore the person in the next stall. My
*interpretation* would be that he was asking for a newspaper. If it were the
dorm, I would hand over the sports section.

I would probably assume that the person in the stall next to me *heard* me
turning the paper. >>

Well, this just goes to demonstrate the vital importance of grammar in
everyday life! Here we see a case where a grammatical error could lead to
not
getting toilet paper when it is really needed!

Good point yourself, gogaku. I should have made it clear that I was assuming
that I didn't actually HAVE a newspaper (I assume further that the majority
of people in toilet stalls do not have newspapers). Even so, since the use
of
toilet paper in a toilet is pretty fundamental (no pun intended), I find it
difficult to believe that the interpretation of THE PAPER to mean 'the
toilet
paper' would not occur to most people (despite the non-native use of the
determiner). Such an interpretation is made even more likely by the form of
the question--"Do you have the X?"--which entails that the questioner does
not know whether or not the hearer actually has X. Absent a rustling
newspaper, it is hard for me to see why 'newspaper' is a greatly better
interpretation than 'cigarette paper' or 'term paper'.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  7 02:07:02 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:07:02 EDT
Subject: I am the Sears Catalog
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.220702.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/6/2000 8:43:11 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:

<< Again, my earlier posts were not intended to be inflammatory, and I

apologize if they appeared that way. >>

Goodness no--this has been a most amusing and enlightening (and polite)
discussion, as far as I am concerned--enlightening because it makes it so
very clear how great is the roll of context in the interpretation of
utterances--including the mental state of the hearer.

I suspect if John Kennedy had been dressed as a sweet roll he would have been
understood differently.

I wonder if Benjamin Barrett is willing to concede that he might just also
possibly have simply assumed that the speaker made a slip of the tongue? I'm
certainly willing to concede that--because THE PAPER is idiomatic for
'today's newspaper'--I would at least have considered that as a possibility
(though, again, I would have ruled it out, I think, on the grounds that I did
not have a newspaper and that people do not ask for newspapers under such
circumstances--though they might well need to ask for toilet tissue).

Now what if the speaker had said, "Do you have the catalog"?

Perhaps I should make it clear that by a mistake in "grammar" I meant simply
a mistake in the use of the determiner, i.e., the use of THE instead of ANY.


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Wed Jun  7 02:54:17 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:54:17 -0500
Subject: I am the Sears Catalog
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.215417.0500.>

I hang my head in shame for butting in here, but it's also possible that in the original
posting the possibility existed that there was more than one stall but frequently only one
roll of toilet paper, which would then be "the paper." At least, in this scenario, there
would be little opportunity for complaining about whether it rolled over the top or out
from behind the roll--to say nothing about lids.
DMLance

RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> In a message dated 6/6/2000 8:43:11 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:
>
> << Again, my earlier posts were not intended to be inflammatory, and I
>
> apologize if they appeared that way. >>
>
> Goodness no--this has been a most amusing and enlightening (and polite)
> discussion, as far as I am concerned--enlightening because it makes it so
> very clear how great is the roll of context in the interpretation of
> utterances--including the mental state of the hearer.
>
> I suspect if John Kennedy had been dressed as a sweet roll he would have been
> understood differently.
>
> I wonder if Benjamin Barrett is willing to concede that he might just also
> possibly have simply assumed that the speaker made a slip of the tongue? I'm
> certainly willing to concede that--because THE PAPER is idiomatic for
> 'today's newspaper'--I would at least have considered that as a possibility
> (though, again, I would have ruled it out, I think, on the grounds that I did
> not have a newspaper and that people do not ask for newspapers under such
> circumstances--though they might well need to ask for toilet tissue).
>
> Now what if the speaker had said, "Do you have the catalog"?
>
> Perhaps I should make it clear that by a mistake in "grammar" I meant simply
> a mistake in the use of the determiner, i.e., the use of THE instead of ANY.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Wed Jun  7 04:27:45 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:27:45 -0700
Subject: On paper in a stall
In-Reply-To: <200006070400.VAA02499@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.212745.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'll come to Don's defense with a bit more contextualizing. While I
certainly observe the usual taboo Ron mentioned about communicating in
public toilets (something we don't teach in ESL or anywhere -- ask Pinker
or Chomsky how we learn from negative evidence), I believe I may have
actually once heard the line, "Do you have the paper?", when sitting in
one side of a two-stall outhouse, supplied with only one roll of toilet
paper. (For you urbanites, perhaps "outhouse" may need interpretation.)
        I could imaginatively contextualize the line to refer to "the
newspaper", in a dorm or somesuch where it was the custom to leave the
morning newspaper in the bathroom to be perused by occupants whiling away
their time on the john, so that the appropriate presuppositions were in
place.
        Interesting to introspect on how we understand utterances at all.
           --Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  7 05:47:09 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 01:47:09 EDT
Subject: Swap Spit; New Cockney Rhyming Slang
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.014709.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SWAP SPIT

   Like "suck face," only different.
   From the NEW YORK POST, 7 June 2000, pg. 10, col. 1:

   "Sex and the City" star _Chris Noth_ sidled up to _Winona Ryder_ and proceeded to swap spit with the "Girl, Interrupted" star for "at least 25 minues," a spy said.

--------------------------------------------------------
NEW COCKNEY RHYMING SLANG

   From the NEW YORK POST, 7 June 2000, pg. 10, col. 5:

   Celebrity culture has overtaken Britain's rhyming slang.  _Britney Spears_ means "beers" as in "Give us a couple of Britneys, luv."  _Chevy Chase_ is "face."  _Lou Reed_ is "speed," the drug.  _Steve McQueen_'s is "jeans."  _Winona Ryder_ is "cider."  _Donald Trump_ is new slang for "dump."  And can you guess what _Brad Pitt_ means to a Cockney?

--------------------------------------------------------
NEW GIRLS CLUB

   A network news broadcast today (ABC News?) used the phrase "New Girls Club/Network," in contrast to "Old Boys Club."  It was pointed out that, in the Fortune 500, there are only 3 female CEOs.  Women are not advancing up the corporate ladder, so they're becoming entreprenuers in a "New Girls Network."
   It needs a good Wall Street Journal article or two to stick.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  7 06:13:49 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 02:13:49 EDT
Subject: Mama Leone & Trader Vic
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.021349.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I went to the Strand Used Bookstore last weekend and bought some old (1968) cookbooks.  The Mama Leone & Trader Vic books were only $4 each!

--------------------------------------------------------
LEONE'S ITALIAN COOKBOOK (1968)
by Gene Leone

   There's a foreword by Dwight D. Eisenhower!  Gene Leone had cooked some at West Point.
   Mother Leone opened her New York City restaurant on April 27, 1906.  The big question is--when did she first introduce these items to the menu?

Pg. 5--"Spumoni, Fat' in Casa."  On opening day 1906?  OED has 1922 for spumoni.
Pg. 70--"Spaghettini."
Pg. 74--"Ziti."
Pg. 76--"Spinach Noodles."
Pg. 77--"Ravioli."
Pg. 78--"Lasagne."
Pg. 81--"Cannelloni alla Romana."
Pg. 83--"Manicotti."
Pg. 84--"Gnocchi."
Pg, 123--"Deep-Sea Scampi Sauteed."
Pg. 132--"Chicken Cacciatora."
Pg. 168--"Veal Cutlet Parmigiana."  "This was one of our most popular dishes.  On a busy night we would serve as many as 2,500 portions."
Pg. 169--"Veal Scaloppine Piccata."  Veal Scaloppine is not in the OED!
Pg. 203--"A Hero Sandwich."
Pg. 224--"Espresso Granita (coffee ice)."
Pg. 226--"Zabaglione."
Pg. 230--"Canoli."
Pg. 231--"Zeppole di San Giuseppe."  OED has 1976 for Zeppole.
Pg. 233--"Cappucino."  "I have been told that this drink got its name from the coffee-colored habits of Italian monks.  Cappucino is usally made in the regular espresso machine."

--------------------------------------------------------
TRADER VIC'S PACIFIC ISLAND COOKBOOK:
WITH SIDE TRIPS TO KONG KONG, SOUTHEST ASIA, MEXICO, AND TEXAS (1968)

   Too much to go over in detail, but two interesting items.

Pg. 195--"Nachos."  In the Texas section.  "This next tidbit is a Mexican version of the old melted cheese and cracker bit, with a bit of jalapeno pepper."
Pg. 189--"Pina Fria."  In the Mexico section.  No "Pina Colada" is here.  This drink contains 2 ounces pineapple juice, 2 slice pineapple, 1 ounce lemon juice, 1 ounce light rum.


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Wed Jun  7 08:23:15 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 03:23:15 -0500
Subject: "Say it ain't so, Joe" (WAS: successful fires)
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.032315.0500.>

Mark Mandel took this thread down a side path by citing George
Thompson's message:

>>>>>
     [...]  A very major gambler and criminal power-broker and financier
named Arnold Rothstein had been murdered. An Irish-born cleaning woman
who worked in the hotel where Rothstein was last alive said that she had
seen him talking to a man she described as "a big feller, and as Irish
as Paddy's pig".  The cops, reasoning shrewdly, thought that the
description was not inappropriate for George McManus, who was
considerably taller than 6 feet and who was on poor terms with
Rothstein.  Nothing came of this.  Rothstein's murder generated a lot of
heat but even more pressure to cover it up, and covered up it was.
<<<<<

Mark then said:

>>>>>>>>
Aha! So that's the reference of one of the half-stanzas in a long poem
by Ogden Nash that I memorized many years ago:
     See Rothstein pass like breath on a glass,
     The original Black Sox kid.
     He riffles the pack, riding piggyback
     On the killer whose name he hid.
We usually associate Nash with light verse in grotesquely long,
unmetered lines with absurd rhymes, but "A Tale of the 13th Floor" is a
Halloween (or Walpurgisnacht) ghost story/morality tale, rigorously
rhymed and metered in the stanzas of Oscar Wilde's "Ballad of Reading
Gaol".

-- Mark

   Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist and Manager of Acoustic Data
          Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc.
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/

This document was created with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.
<<<<<<<<<<

To which Laurence Horn replied:

> and for the uninitiated, the "Black Sox kid" reference in the Nash line
> Mark quotes is to Rothstein's legendary role (rumored or actually
> confirmed?) as the major figure responsible for bribing the underpaid and
> ill-treated 1919 Chicago White Sox to throw (deliberately lose) the World
> Series of that year to the heavy underdog Cincinnati Reds.  (all very well
> depicted in the John Sayles movie "Eight Men Out" from the Eliot Asinof
> book of the same name.)  This, in turn, bequeathed us "Say it ain't so,
> Joe" (supposedly a disillusioned kid beseeching Shoeless Joe Jackson, one
> of the eight bribees later permanently banned from baseball) and,
> eventually, "Field of Dreams".  Quite a legacy for Mr. Rothstein.
>
> larry

"Say it ain't so, Joe":

Some of the Sox were bribed to throw the 1919 World Series, and they
earned their illegal pay.  That much is certain.  Shoeless Joe Jackson
may very well have been one of the culprits. It's a matter of record
that he was banned from baseball in connection with the Black Sox
scandal.  It might be well, however, to use a word like "allegedly" when
declaring that Jackson himself either took a bribe or had a conscious
part in losing any of the 1919 World Series games.

Shoeless Joe Jackson was one of the great athletic heroes of his time.
He was so admired that his partisans refused to believe that anyone
would even dare to offer him a bribe to throw a game.  They vociferously
rejected the notion that their great hero actually did anything worse
than have a few bad days on the field during that Series. Jackson
supporters have argued, ever since, that there was no definitive proof
that Jackson was one of those who took the bribes and threw the games.

The "Say it ain't so, Joe" story -- and reports of how Jackson reacted
on hearing the question -- became part of the argument.  People on both
sides alleged that Jackson's reaction clearly settled the question in
their favor. It's an interesting case of belief triumphing over
evidence, since it's not at all certain that any disillusioned kid ever
asked Shoeless Joe the famous question in a face-to-face, live
encounter. The whole thing could have been the invention of a newspaper
reporter. In any event, the ranks of the Jackson supporters thinned
considerably when the banning decision came down.  Twenty years later,
anyone who remembered Jackson at all remembered him for his (ahem)
ALLEGED participation in the scandal.

There's a recondite reflection of the public acceptance of Jackson's
involvement in the scandal in a series of Big Band recordings made
sometime between 1938 and 1942.  In that era, Benny Goodman had an
exclusive contract to record only for RCA records. His contract also
banned the use of the name of the Benny Goodman orchestra without RCA
permission.  The ban did not keep Goodman's sidemen from making quite a
few recordings for other companies; they simply listed some other member
of the Goodman crew as the bandleader.  One remarkable series of 78 rpm
recordings lists just about all the Goodman people as performers --
except the clarinet player.  He is listed as "Shoeless John Jackson".
Nobody by that name ever played any live dates or made any other
recordings with members of the Goodman band.  It has been years since I
heard the recordings (and if you know where to get hold of a copy,
please tell me!), but my memory of the performances is that Shoeless
John Jackson had to have been Benny Goodman himself.  The name was a
deliberate giveaway, but the sound of the clarinet was unmistakable
anyhow.

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!

P.S.: I have a vague memory that the Ogden Nash poem has more to do with
Arnold Rothstein than a mere passing reference to his possible
involvement with the Black Sox Scandal.

What I think I recall is that Rothstein lingered at death's door for
some time, not consciously reacting to his surroundings but talking
non-stop nevertheless. Taken individually, his sentences are supposed to
have been grammatical, but the ensemble simply made no sense.  One
recurring theme was something about "shuffle and deal".  If my memory is
connected to the real facts at all, there was supposed to have been a
police stenographer writing down whatever Rothstein said in his dying
delirium, in hopes that he would at least name his killer.  (Or, as
elaborated in fictional reports of his death, in hopes that he might
either incriminate some of his associates or reveal where and how he had
hidden the bulk of his illicit wealth.) If Rothstein did reveal anything
in his ravings, nobody was able to make sense of what he said. Hence
Nash's "The killer whose name he hid".

The story I report in this postscript is FWIW.  I wouldn't know where or
how to start searching for confirmation or contradiction; it's just a
fugitive memory from I don't know where.  The story of Benny Goodman
recording as "Shoeless John Jackson", on the other hand, is fairly well
known to dedicated Goodman fans.


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Wed Jun  7 11:20:45 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:20:45 -0400
Subject: Vietnam slang article in TRUE (April 1966) (LONG!)
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.072045.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000 4:59 PM
Subject: Vietnam slang article in TRUE (April 1966) (LONG!)



>      The number 33 (in Vietnamese, "bamouiba") is always associated with
the
>best selling local brand of beer: "33 Export."  (I noticed numbers on


This nicely echoes Rolling Rock's 33. Or did somebody point this out
already?

bkd


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Wed Jun  7 12:08:36 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:08:36 +0100
Subject: Scottish word, +ginger
In-Reply-To: <393D44FA.690E599D@ark.ship.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.130836.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 6/6/00 7:37 PM, GSCole wrote:

> In a recently completed visit to the mainland of Orkney, someone gave me
> a term that seems to have several meanings.  The word is ferrylouper.

My Concise Scots Dictionary doesn't have "ferrylouper", but for "loup" it
has:
1. leap, spring, dash
3. spring to one's feet
5. dance, caper, hop about
6. walk with a long springing step, bound
8. _also vt, of things_ spring, fly (in some direction); pop out of a
(receptacle or covering)

n. 1. Leap, jump, spring

These definition hint at some sort of transience, in this case, rapidly
going from the ferry, landing on Orkney, saying "It's bloody cold, wet and
windy here" and hopping back on the ferry.

More importantly, according to the dictionary, seems to be prominently from
Shetland and Orkney (I'm sure some Worfians could relate this to the weather
:-) ).


As for ginger, I took an informal survey of linguists.  "Ginger" can mean
any shade of red hair, for some strawberry blond is excluded (for those that
knew what strawberry blond was), for others, strawberry blond is included,
for some it included the brownish side, for others, definitely not.  The
group was a mixture of English and Scots.  It was about as useful as asking
how long a piece of string is.  As for why ginger is red and not, say, a
sandy blond shade, I don't know.  Ah, but I have my CSD here....

For _gingerbreid_ (ginger only has "ginger"), in addition to ginger bread,
the definition is:
2. adj. gaudy, extravagant; unsubstantial
[laME = n; ME _gingerbreed_, _gingebras_, OF _gigembras_ ginger conserve]

It looks like it's a circle back to ginger marmalade.  I'm going to assume
that ginger conserve has a reddish tint, and that got carried through to a
Scots borrowing...

--Aaron


________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
  --Death


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Wed Jun  7 13:46:46 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:46:46 -0500
Subject: the vital importance of grammar in everyday life
In-Reply-To: <33.615442e.266ec8ba@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.084646.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Are there gender differences, I wonder?

--Bob

At 05:35 PM 6/6/00 EDT, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>In a message dated 6/6/2000 3:58:06 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:
>
><< Good point. I would ignore the person in the next stall. My
>*interpretation*
>
>would be that he was asking for a newspaper. If it were the dorm, I would
>
>hand over the sports section.
>
>
>I would probably assume that the person in the stall next to me *heard* me
>
>turning the paper. >>
>
>Well, this just goes to demonstrate the vital importance of grammar in
>everyday life! Here we see a case where a grammatical error could lead to not
>getting toilet paper when it is really needed!
>
>Good point yourself, gogaku. I should have made it clear that I was assuming
>that I didn't actually HAVE a newspaper (I assume further that the majority
>of people in toilet stalls do not have newspapers). Even so, since the use of
>toilet paper in a toilet is pretty fundamental (no pun intended), I find it
>difficult to believe that the interpretation of THE PAPER to mean 'the toilet
>paper' would not occur to most people (despite the non-native use of the
>determiner). Such an interpretation is made even more likely by the form of
>the question--"Do you have the X?"--which entails that the questioner does
>not know whether or not the hearer actually has X. Absent a rustling
>newspaper, it is hard for me to see why 'newspaper' is a greatly better
>interpretation than 'cigarette paper' or 'term paper'.
>
>


From ookpik at MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Jun  7 14:01:39 2000
From: ookpik at MINDSPRING.COM (J. Katherine Rossner)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:01:39 -0400
Subject: the vital importance of grammar in everyday life
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000607084646.007c6bc0@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.100139.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:46 AM 6/7/00 -0500, Robert S. Wachal wrote:
>Are there gender differences, I wonder?
>
>--Bob

I was thinking that!  Clearly there are--one of the males responding said
something about an etiquette of "not hearing" others using the facilities;
that's not the case for women.  And I have both heard, and asked, "any
paper over there?" or "could you pass me some paper?"

Katherine
--
Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche is chaunge
Withinne a thousand yere, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem, and yit they spake hem so.
        - Chaucer, "Troilus and Criseyde"


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Jun  7 16:24:57 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:24:57 -0700
Subject: I am the Sears Catalog
In-Reply-To: <61.43db770.266f0846@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.092457.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, yeah, but the roll gets smaller as you use it...:)

--On Tue, Jun 6, 2000 10:07 PM +0000 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> it makes it so
> very clear how great is the roll of context in the interpretation of
> utterances



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Wed Jun  7 16:44:21 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:44:21 -0400
Subject: I am the Sears Catalog
In-Reply-To: <61.43db770.266f0846@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.124421.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"the roll of context"? Wonderful!

At 10:07 PM 6/6/00 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 6/6/2000 8:43:11 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:
>
><< Again, my earlier posts were not intended to be inflammatory, and I
>
>apologize if they appeared that way. >>
>
>Goodness no--this has been a most amusing and enlightening (and polite)
>discussion, as far as I am concerned--enlightening because it makes it so
>very clear how great is the roll of context in the interpretation of
>utterances--including the mental state of the hearer.
>
>I suspect if John Kennedy had been dressed as a sweet roll he would have been
>understood differently.
>
>I wonder if Benjamin Barrett is willing to concede that he might just also
>possibly have simply assumed that the speaker made a slip of the tongue? I'm
>certainly willing to concede that--because THE PAPER is idiomatic for
>'today's newspaper'--I would at least have considered that as a possibility
>(though, again, I would have ruled it out, I think, on the grounds that I did
>not have a newspaper and that people do not ask for newspapers under such
>circumstances--though they might well need to ask for toilet tissue).
>
>Now what if the speaker had said, "Do you have the catalog"?
>
>Perhaps I should make it clear that by a mistake in "grammar" I meant simply
>a mistake in the use of the determiner, i.e., the use of THE instead of ANY.


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  7 17:09:26 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:09:26 EDT
Subject: Kickoff Curse; ScandinAsian
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.130926.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

KICKOFF CURSE

   From the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, 7 June 2000, David Bianculli tv column, pg. 78, col. 1:

_First curse: Another one bites the dust_
   Curses!  The Kickoff Curse has struck again! (...)
   Basically, the Kickoff Curse predicts that whichever new fall series is the first to premiere will not survive the freshman year.  It's almost like being first in line for the guillotine.  It's not a head start; it's heads off. (...)
   (Col. 2) Yet, when it comes to taking shows from the fall schedule and giving them a head start, the results are so reliably dismal that I long ago identified it, and began tracking it as TV's Kickoff Curse. (...)
   (Col. 4) Right now, the Kickoff Curse is right 87% of the time, and hasn't been wrong since 1991.

--------------------------------------------------------
SCANDINASIAN

   From NEW YORK PRESS, June 7-13, 2000, pg. 41, col. 2:

   A new restaurant called _Tja!_ (301 Church St., corner of Walker, 226-8900), serving what it calls "ScandinAsian" cuisine--a fusion that evokes the unlikely prospect of intelligent Swedes, manly Japanese lumberjacks and _Charlie_ counting lingonberries with abaci--has opened in _Tribeca_.

  Can a new ScandinAsian rock group called "JABBA" be far behind?


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Wed Jun  7 18:50:59 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:50:59 -0400
Subject: On-line hip-hop dictionary...
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.145059.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In today's Wall Street Journal (7 June 2000), on page 1, 'center' column
is an article about an on-line hip-hop dictionary, and its creator.
Titled:  Mr. Atoon Is Down With Rap Slang, And That's an Up Thing//His
Hot Hip-Hop Dictionary Is a Favorite in the 'Hood' Pretty Fly for a
White Guy.  The dictionary link is at:
http://www.rapdict.org/

George S. Cole  gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Wed Jun  7 21:01:32 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:01:32 -0500
Subject: a letter in cant, 1855
In-Reply-To: <38B2DC5F.43BECB94@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.160132.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The following letter in criminal's cant was published in The Broadway
Belle, October 29, 1855, p. 1, cols. 3-4.  This was edited by
America's first great pornographer, George Thompson.  This issue and
the other issues from that October are in the Rare Book Room of the
New York Public Library.  I'm told by someone preparing a book on
Thompson that there is a fuller file in the Boston Public Library.

        My knibbs has been faked by the napping cullys

for being budgey, and, in default of tipping ten slums, I

have been sherried in this quisby cap for ten days.  Nixey

tipping the slums but sherry down the kid with my other

benjamin and a slum or two, for the peck is awful quisby.

I shall weed raw about this cab when I sherry hence.  the

crib is ruled by mokes and Micks.  My health is rummy.


This letter hardly needs explaining, of course, but the editor
offered a translation that I will pass along:  "I have been taken up
by the police for intoxication, and, in default of paying a fine of
ten dollars, I have been sentenced to this wretched place for ten
days.  Do not pay the fine, but send the boy down with my other coat,
and a dollar or two, for the food is miserable.  I shall have
something strange to tell you about this place when I go out.  The
establishment is ruled by negroes and Irishmen.  My health is good."

I would have thought "weed raw" would mean "speak strongly" rather
than "have something strange to tell".

RHHDAS has the following dates:
benjamin:       RHHDAS: 1859; budgey: Not in RHHDAS; Budge, noun (=
liquor): 1853, 1863, 1880, etc.; cab: Not in RHHDAS; cap: Not in
RHHDAS; crib: RHHDAS: (1c) 1907; cully: RHHDAS 1846, 1848, 1854,
etc.; faked: Not in RHHDAS, this sense; kid:    RHHDAS: 1851 (citing
a book by George Thompson); mick: RHHDAS: 1850, 1854, 1859, etc.;
moke: RHHDAS: 1847, 1856, 1859, etc.; napping: Not in RHHDAS as
adjective; nap, verb, 1791, 1807, then a break to 1963, citing a
play on kidnapping; knibbs: RHHDAS: 1847, 1862, 1867; nixey: RHHDAS:
1877

GAT


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Wed Jun  7 20:20:17 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:20:17 -0700
Subject: I am the Sears Catalog
In-Reply-To: <61.43db770.266f0846@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.132017.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hee, hee. Good.

I think Rudy's outhouse scenario shows definitively that interpretation is
purely contextual/pragmatics. It seems likely that someone not familiar with
Al Bundy's reading habits would be more likely to interpret "the paper" as
toilet paper.

Having had this discussion, now, I don't think I'll ever be able to be asked
for "the paper" in the john again without simply replying, "Today's or are
you out?"

I think the possibility of interpreting my neighbor as making a slip of the
tongue would be directly dependant on how close his accent is to mine. (Or
in other words, yes.)

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
RonButters at AOL.COM

In a message dated 6/6/2000 8:43:11 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:

<< Again, my earlier posts were not intended to be inflammatory, and I

apologize if they appeared that way. >>

Goodness no--this has been a most amusing and enlightening (and polite)
discussion, as far as I am concerned--enlightening because it makes it so
very clear how great is the roll of context in the interpretation of
utterances--including the mental state of the hearer.

I suspect if John Kennedy had been dressed as a sweet roll he would have
been
understood differently.

I wonder if Benjamin Barrett is willing to concede that he might just also
possibly have simply assumed that the speaker made a slip of the tongue? I'm
certainly willing to concede that--because THE PAPER is idiomatic for
'today's newspaper'--I would at least have considered that as a possibility
(though, again, I would have ruled it out, I think, on the grounds that I
did
not have a newspaper and that people do not ask for newspapers under such
circumstances--though they might well need to ask for toilet tissue).

Now what if the speaker had said, "Do you have the catalog"?

Perhaps I should make it clear that by a mistake in "grammar" I meant simply
a mistake in the use of the determiner, i.e., the use of THE instead of ANY.


From pds at VISI.COM  Thu Jun  8 01:56:00 2000
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:56:00 -0500
Subject: I am the Sears Catalog
In-Reply-To: <61.43db770.266f0846@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.205600.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RonButters at AOL.COM is:
>certainly willing to concede that--because THE PAPER is idiomatic for
>'today's newspaper'--I would at least have considered that as a possibility
>(though, again, I would have ruled it out, I think, on the grounds that I did
>not have a newspaper and that people do not ask for newspapers under such
>circumstances--though they might well need to ask for toilet tissue).
>
>Now what if the speaker had said, "Do you have the catalog"?

The two-holer my grandparents used out on the ND prairie was still standing
when I was a kid (in the '50s).  It is highly likely that at one time or
another one of them asked, "Do you have the catalog?"



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  8 04:24:19 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:24:19 EDT
Subject: Shill Bidding; The Art of Eating Well
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.002419.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SHILL BIDDING

   The FBI announced today that it's looking into "shill bidding," or "self bidding," on eBay.  That's when friends bid on their own stuff to drive up the price.  It's illegal.
   The term is not in the online OED.

--------------------------------------------------------
THE ART OF EATING WELL (1891)
by Pellegrino Artusi (1820-1911),
1996 translation by Kyle M. Phillips III

   The cover announces that this is "Italy's most treasured cookbook."
   Why did it take over 100 years for it to be translated?  Will OED consider this book's entries for Italian food?
   It's interesting to compare this with the Mother Leone Italian cookbook.  "Spumoni" is not here, but Mother Leone's restaurant served spumoni on its opening day in 1906.  "Pizza" is here in 1891, as are cannelloni, focaccia, frittata, gelato, gnocchi, veal scaloppine, semolina, and much more.
   "Cappuccino" is not here, but "espresso coffee" is on pg. 456.  Does this count as an "espresso" cite?


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Thu Jun  8 08:23:34 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 04:23:34 -0400
Subject: Shill Bidding
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.042334.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000 12:24 AM
Subject: Shill Bidding; The Art of Eating Well


>SHILL BIDDING
>
>   The FBI announced today that it's looking into "shill bidding," or "self
bidding," on eBay.  That's when friends bid on their own stuff to drive up
the price.  It's illegal.
>   The term is not in the online OED.


On Lovejoy, this was called 'a ring', as in a ring of friends, accomplices,
cohorts, what have you, who would bid up the price at auction. Of course, I
have no idea how closely the TV series hewed to the written source, and how
accurately the books described the dodgy side of the British antique
business...

bkd


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Jun  8 12:34:46 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:34:46 -0400
Subject: Shill Bidding
In-Reply-To: <006201bfd122$d7308e00$8a70cec0@qwe.graphnet.com>
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.083446.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This seems to me to be an interesting case of "lexicon" (including
"lexicalized compositions") versus "transparent composition," a difficulty
which surely keeps real lexicographers awake at night. We know what a
"shill" is, and we know what "bidding" is. Therefore, we know what "shill
bidding" is (and it doesn't suprise me that it isn't in a dictionary). For
example, we know what "big" is, and we know what "dog" is. Therefore , we
know what a "big dog" is (and don't find it in the dictionary). I can
already think of lots of objections to that characterization (caricature?),
and I wonder what practicing lexicographers have to say about it these days.

I frankly hadn't thought much about it since I read Zgusta's magnificent
Manual of Lexicography some 25 years ago.

dInIs



>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bapopik at AOL.COM <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000 12:24 AM
>Subject: Shill Bidding; The Art of Eating Well
>
>
>>SHILL BIDDING
>>
>>   The FBI announced today that it's looking into "shill bidding," or "self
>bidding," on eBay.  That's when friends bid on their own stuff to drive up
>the price.  It's illegal.
>>   The term is not in the online OED.
>
>
>On Lovejoy, this was called 'a ring', as in a ring of friends, accomplices,
>cohorts, what have you, who would bid up the price at auction. Of course, I
>have no idea how closely the TV series hewed to the written source, and how
>accurately the books described the dodgy side of the British antique
>business...
>
>bkd


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Thu Jun  8 16:19:37 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:19:37 -0400
Subject: Rothstein, Shoeless Joe, & Nash
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.121937.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mike has taken us further down this scenic garden path with the following:

>>>>>
P.S.: I have a vague memory that the Ogden Nash poem has more to do with
Arnold Rothstein than a mere passing reference to his possible
involvement with the Black Sox Scandal.

What I think I recall is that Rothstein lingered at death's door for
some time, not consciously reacting to his surroundings but talking
non-stop nevertheless. Taken individually, his sentences are supposed to
have been grammatical, but the ensemble simply made no sense.  One
recurring theme was something about "shuffle and deal".  If my memory is
connected to the real facts at all, there was supposed to have been a
police stenographer writing down whatever Rothstein said in his dying
delirium, in hopes that he would at least name his killer.  (Or, as
elaborated in fictional reports of his death, in hopes that he might
either incriminate some of his associates or reveal where and how he had
hidden the bulk of his illicit wealth.) If Rothstein did reveal anything
in his ravings, nobody was able to make sense of what he said. Hence
Nash's "The killer whose name he hid".

The story I report in this postscript is FWIW.  I wouldn't know where or
how to start searching for confirmation or contradiction; it's just a
fugitive memory from I don't know where.  The story of Benny Goodman
recording as "Shoeless John Jackson", on the other hand, is fairly well
known to dedicated Goodman fans.
<<<<<

That story may well be behind Nash's reference, but I have quoted all of the
poem that relates to Rothstein. He figures as just one of a gallery of murder
victims and culprits.

-- Mark
"Someone's sent out the New Australian Grammar to Malaya nearly a
 century before it was invented, and I'm going to be all day
 sorting it out."     -- Diana Wynne Jones, _A Tale of Time City_


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Thu Jun  8 16:22:29 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:22:29 -0400
Subject: quote (was: the vital importance of grammar in everyday life)
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.122229.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"J. Katherine Rossner" <ookpik at MINDSPRING.COM> writes:

>>>>>
Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche is chaunge
Withinne a thousand yere, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem, and yit they spake hem so.
        - Chaucer, "Troilus and Criseyde"
<<<<<

Great! I'm adding that to my treasury of sigs!

-- Dr. Whom: Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist,
   and Philological Busybody
   a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Thu Jun  8 16:25:35 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:25:35 -0400
Subject: a letter in cant, 1855
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.122535.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the late fifties and the sixties, MAD Magazine used to insert
     It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide.
in random places. I have seen it glossed as
     It's crazy to bribe (= slip the dropsy to) a policeman in counterfeit
money.
but it's at least as much fun without the gloss.

-- Mark


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Jun  8 17:11:44 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:11:44 -0600
Subject: "Big Apple" 1909 reference
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.111144.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Barry Popik is correct in rejecting the 1909 attestation "the big apple"
(in reference to NYC) as an indication that this was already NYC's
nickname.  The quote says: "It [the Mid-West] inclines to think that the
big apple gets a disproportionate share of the national sap." "Big apple"
here means roughly "overweening big shot" and happens to refer to NYC--but
only in this context!  "Big apple" was not yet a nickname for NYC!  It's as
if I referred to Washington D.C. as "the big enchilada" in a discussion of
political power;  but if I then went to the train station and asked for a
ticket to The Big Enchilada, the ticket-seller would have no idea where I
wanted to go.

     And when "the big apple" did emerge in print really in reference to
NYC (1921ff.), for at least six years or so  it never designated NYC as a
whole, but rather just the NYC racetracks;  a bit more broadly, "the big
apple" referred to the big time in horseracing.   And it was never "in the
big apple" but rather "on the big apple," i.e., on the racetracks.

   Also, Barry Popik has never said that the term originated with the two
African-American stable hands in New Orleans, 1921.  Rather, the
conversation of the two stable hands, 1921, is the earliest point to which
"the big apple" (as a reference to the NYC racetracks) can be traced. And
yes, turf writer John J. FitzGerald did overhear their conversation;  he
twice gave them credit in print for introducing him to "the big apple."

     Incidentally,  I believe that the research that I and Barry Popik have
done on "The Big Apple" is accepted by all scholars who have looked at it.
The NY Times spokeswoman who wrote to Barry Popik cited Irving Allen's book
as her source for evidence that "the big apple" existed already in 1909 as
NYC's nickname.   But Professor Allen relied on me for his information on
"The Big Apple" and never raised objections to the interpretation  Barry
Popik and I were advancing.  Note his 1993 _The City in Slang_, p. 63: "A
controversy ensued over the origin, date, and the first meaning of "The Big
Apple," but the story is now getting straightened out by the efforts of
slang etymologist Gerald L. Cohen and others." (Among "others" read:
primarily Barry Popik, who has done remarkable research on the subject.)

-----Gerald Cohen
      Professor of Foreign Languages
     University of Missouri-Rolla
(research specialty: Etymology; author of _Origin of New York City's
Nickname, "The Big Apple"_ (=Forum Anglicum, vol. 19). Frankfurt am Main:
Peter Lang Verlag, 1991.---Several follow-up articles on this topic have
appeared in my _Studies in Slang_ series (Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang);
the "Big Apple" updates consist primarily of Barry Popik's valuable
contributions.)

>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Date:         Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:10:25 EDT
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
>Subject:      New York Times responds
>Comments: cc: gsnyder at observer.com
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>   Yesterday, the New York Times acknowledged an error.  My name had been
>misspelled in the April 1996 article.  There was a correction in last
>Sunday's Times on page 2.  Four years later!
>   An Abuzz.com message mentioned this correction (search using "New York
>Times" and "Lisa Carparelli" and "Big Apple" as key words), and then added:
>
>   As for your additional claim, our research establishes that the
>earliest known reference to "the Big Apple" as a nickname for New York
>City is in a 1909 book, "The Wayfarer in New York," by Edward S. Martin
>(Macmillan).  That reference is cited in a 1993 Oxford University Press
>book, "The City in Slang," by Irving Lewis Allen.
>   So with respect, we do not share your belief that the term originated
>with two African-American stable hands.  At most, a reporter from The
>Morning Telegraph overhead it being used by stablehands and then
>popularized it.
>   We are glad to correct the record on the spelling of your name, but we
>believe that's all the correction that is due.  (...)
>--Lisa Carparelli, spokeswoman, The New York Times
>....



gcohen at umr.edu


From Abatefr at CS.COM  Thu Jun  8 19:43:10 2000
From: Abatefr at CS.COM (Frank Abate)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:43:10 EDT
Subject: Shill Bidding
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.154310.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I can't speak for others, but in my lingo I refer to "transparent compounds" (e.g., *big dog*) vs. "idioms" (e.g., *big idea* in "What's the big idea?").  Yes, lexicographers don't enter transparent compounds, and do (try to) enter (in larger dicts, at least) idioms, but it is not always clear-cut when and how to do so.  Some expressions fall into a gray area (what about "big deal" or "big picture"?), and some quite common expressions ("in your dreams"; "duh"; "hel-LO-oo") are certainly lexical in content but somehow seem not to have entered dicts.

There is a distinction made by a French linguist (maybe someone out there knows who) between "idiome" (an idiom) and "idiotisme" (a way in which words are naturally put together according to the rules of the language, if learned and applied conventionally).  The idiomes are the things that dicts enter -- classic example, "kick the bucket".  The idiotismes are what practiced speakers of the language do when they use the syntactic rules of the language conventionally.  So the latter compounds are formally not lexical, though there are always examples where judgment may be needed to decide.  In the case of most dicts, the editorial judgment is usually influenced by the necessary constrictions of schedule and budget.

Frank Abate


American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> wrote:
>
> This seems to me to be an interesting case of "lexicon" (including
> "lexicalized compositions") versus "transparent composition," a difficulty
> which surely keeps real lexicographers awake at night. We know what a
> "shill" is, and we know what "bidding" is. Therefore, we know what "shill
> bidding" is (and it doesn't suprise me that it isn't in a dictionary). For
> example, we know what "big" is, and we know what "dog" is. Therefore , we
> know what a "big dog" is (and don't find it in the dictionary). I can
> already think of lots of objections to that characterization (caricature?),
> and I wonder what practicing lexicographers have to say about it these days.
>
> I frankly hadn't thought much about it since I read Zgusta's magnificent
> Manual of Lexicography some 25 years ago.
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Bapopik at AOL.COM <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000 12:24 AM
> >Subject: Shill Bidding; The Art of Eating Well
> >
> >
> >>SHILL BIDDING
> >>
> >>   The FBI announced today that it's looking into "shill bidding," or "self
> >bidding," on eBay.  That's when friends bid on their own stuff to drive up
> >the price.  It's illegal.
> >>   The term is not in the online OED.
> >
> >
> >On Lovejoy, this was called 'a ring', as in a ring of friends, accomplices,
> >cohorts, what have you, who would bid up the price at auction. Of course, I
> >have no idea how closely the TV series hewed to the written source, and how
> >accurately the books described the dodgy side of the British antique
> >business...
> >
> >bkd
>
>
> Dennis R. Preston
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
> preston at pilot.msu.edu
> Office: (517)353-0740
> Fax: (517)432-2736
>


From Abatefr at CS.COM  Thu Jun  8 20:16:41 2000
From: Abatefr at CS.COM (Frank Abate)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 16:16:41 EDT
Subject: Shill Bidding
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.161641.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry for the confusion all, but I crossed two terms up in my previous posting.  In the passage below, switch the uses of "idiome"
and "idiotisme".  "Idiotisme" is the term equivalent to English "idiom", as in the case of "kick the bucket".

Frank Abate

*********
There is a distinction made by a French linguist (maybe someone out there knows who) between "idiome" (an idiom) and "idiotisme" (a way in which words are naturally put together according to the rules of the language, if learned and applied conventionally).   The idiomes are the things that dicts enter -- classic example, "kick the bucket".  The idiotismes are what practiced speakers of the language do when they use the syntactic rules of the language conventionally.


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Jun  9 01:56:14 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 21:56:14 -0400
Subject: Shill Bidding
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.215614.0400.>

I wish I could recall some of the Panini sutras (concerning sandhis and samasas)
I learned in high school. Recently, thanks to bibliographic help from Ron
Butters, I studied some of the more modern stuff about noun+noun compounds. This
was in connection with a trademark like Pizza Hut, I think. The point I am trying
to make is that, because we know what a "shill" is and what "bidding" is, it
doesn't necessarily follow that we know what "shill bidding" is; it is not that
transparent. However, from the structure of the compound, we do know that it is a
kind of bidding just as we know that "bidding war" is a kind of war.  As a
practicing lexicographer lying sleepless in Niagara Falls, I would say there
isn't enough room in earthly dictionaries for all nontransparent compounds to be
entered and defined. They have to make the grade based on frequency of occurrence
in the language.

"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:

> This seems to me to be an interesting case of "lexicon" (including
> "lexicalized compositions") versus "transparent composition," a difficulty
> which surely keeps real lexicographers awake at night. We know what a
> "shill" is, and we know what "bidding" is. Therefore, we know what "shill
> bidding" is (and it doesn't suprise me that it isn't in a dictionary). For
> example, we know what "big" is, and we know what "dog" is. Therefore , we
> know what a "big dog" is (and don't find it in the dictionary). I can
> already think of lots of objections to that characterization (caricature?),
> and I wonder what practicing lexicographers have to say about it these days....


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  9 03:17:29 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:17:29 EDT
Subject: Edward Sandford Martin (and "Martini")
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.231729.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "But many things that are quintessentially New York came from out of town, starting with the city's nicknames. (...) New Orleans stable hands in the 1920's called New York and its racetracks 'The Big Apple,' a possible allusion to its jazz clubs."
--Anthony Ramirez, THE NEW YORK TIMES, 6 September 1998, sec. 14, pg. 1, col. 6.

   "So with respect, we do not share your belief that the term originated with two African-American stable hands.  At most, a reporter from The Morning Telegraph overhead it being used by stablehands and then popularized it."
--Lisa Carparelli, spokeswoman, THE NEW YORK TIMES (this week)

   Boy, are these folks consistent!  We've cited part of your work in the past, but the full story is not fit to print!
   The Times's latest excuse for not giving John J. Fitz Gerald credit for popularizing "the Big Apple" (and mentioning his three "Big Apple" columns, that would later directly influence Walter Winchell, Harlem jazz musicians, Charles Gillett, and that 1928 New York Times film cite found by Fred Shapiro and reported in AMERICAN SPEECH) is that one single 1909 metaphor used by Edward Sandford Martin.
   I'll now give you a closer look at Edward Sandford Martin.  Generally, if a term is in someone's vocabulary, he'll use it again.  Edward Sandford Martin was one of the most prolific writers in American history.
   He never used "big apple" again.
   It's not in WINDFALLS OF OBSERVATION (1893), LUCID INTERVALS (1901), POEMS AND VERSES (1902), THE WAR WEEK BY WEEK (1914), and WHAT'S AHEAD & MEANWHILE (essays 1920-1927).
   Martin was a founder of the HARVARD LAMPOON and the New York City humor magazine LIFE.  He wrote "The Editor's Easy Chair" for HARPER'S MAGAZINE.
   Since the New York Times now questions my work, I challenge the paper to find another Edward Sandford Martin "big apple" in any of his writings.
   I'm grateful that my name is now Barry "Popik," but still await that apology for not printing New York City's history.

MARTINI
   I checked the online OED (they're revising "M," so is "Martini" done?).  "Martini" is 1894.
   "Martini cocktail, please" is on page 298 of WINDFALLS OF OBSERVATION (1893) by Edward S. Martin.


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Fri Jun  9 12:45:37 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 07:45:37 -0500
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.074537.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
vulgarities were often uttered in silent films?

Bob Wachal


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun  9 13:25:23 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:25:23 -0400
Subject: Edward Sandford Martin (and "Martini")
In-Reply-To: <90.549397b.2671bbc9@aol.com> from "Bapopik@AOL.COM" at Jun 08,
 2000 11:17:29 PM
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.092523.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>  MARTINI
> I checked the online OED (they're revising "M," so is
> "Martini" done?).  "Martini" is 1894.  "Martini cocktail, please" is
> on page 298 of WINDFALLS OF OBSERVATION (1893) by Edward S. Martin.

We're just finishing up "Martini" now. Our earliest example is
1884 in the form "Martinez," the connection of which to "Martini"
is unclear, and 1888 for "Martini."

Jesse Sheidlower


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Fri Jun  9 15:32:43 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:32:43 -0500
Subject: Subway!
In-Reply-To: <B4FC74C5.1403%highbob@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.103243.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bill Gallo writes in Thursday's [New York] Daily News, Special
Section, p. 26:

"Subway has a few meanings in this town.  For instance, if you're in
a bar and the bartender suddenly yells, "Subway," that means he's
just picked up a nice tip left by an exiting customer."

I have never heard this exclamation.  For sure, it's never been
yelled as I left a bar.  Any of the barflies on this list familiar
with it?

Gallo is I think in his seventies -- old enough at least to have
been a Marine in WWII -- and a born New Yorker whose spent his
working career in NYC also.

GAT


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Fri Jun  9 14:42:52 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:42:52 -0400
Subject: Subway!
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.104252.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: GEORGE THOMPSON <thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Friday, June 09, 2000 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: Subway!


>"Subway has a few meanings in this town.  For instance, if you're in
>a bar and the bartender suddenly yells, "Subway," that means he's
>just picked up a nice tip left by an exiting customer."
>
>I have never heard this exclamation.  For sure, it's never been
>yelled as I left a bar.  Any of the barflies on this list familiar
>with it?


Never heard it in Northern New Jersey in the 90s...

bkd


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Jun  9 14:46:16 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:46:16 +0100
Subject: Subway!
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.154616.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Using the excuse of this subject heading to point out another US/UK
distinction:

If you see a sign in London marked 'subway' with an arrow pointing down,
it's pointing to a walkway under a road or train track.  It's not
pointing you the way to the Tube.

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Fri Jun  9 15:55:45 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:55:45 -0500
Subject: Lexicographer's dilemma
In-Reply-To: <70.203526f.2614b38e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.105545.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From the [New York] Daily News, Thursday, June 8, 2000, Special
Section, p. 26:

"There is a common New Yorkese kind of saying, "Sure, that and a
dollar fifty will get you a ride on the subway."

This is indeed a common way of stating that something is worthless, a
degree from a low-prestige college or in a scorned major, for
instance.  I've known it since the early 60's.  However, over 40
years -- it's not really 40 years since 1960, is it? -- the sum of
money has been adjusted upwards to allow for inflation, and the thing
to be bought has also varied.  I recollect:  "That and a nickle will
get you a cup of coffee," (and it really would, then) or "That and a
dime will get you today's paper" or a ride on the subway.

When the meaningful elements of a saying vary in this way, what does
a lexicographer do?  How can it be entered in a dictionary so that it
will be found?  About 8 years ago American Speech published a note
from me giving late 19th century occurences of similar variable
expressions:  "Your money [dough] is no good [doesn't go] in this
joint [town, up here]", expressing the idea that that the speaker
will pay for everything, and "I can do that standing on my head
[hands]", expressing disdain for a term of imprisonment.

GAT


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Jun  9 16:06:29 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:06:29 -0700
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
In-Reply-To: <E130Q0m-0005Rz-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.090629.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Have Londoners taken to calling the Underground "the tube"
indiscriminately?  I had it explained to me by a Londoner back in the 60s
that "tube" referred only to the routes created by underground drilling at
greater depths, like the Picadilly and Bakerloo Lines, and would not be
used of routes like the Circle Line, which were near enough to the surface
to be created by the "break and cover" method.  I think I even read the
same thing in some guide book.  I've taken it as gospel ever since, but
maybe it was always more technical than colloquial.

(The break-and-cover lines always seemed "friendlier" to me than the tube
lines.  It always seemed that the Picadilly Line trains came bursting
violently out of their tunnel into the station, as if they were perpetually
angry at being confined to that little tube.)

Peter

--On Fri, Jun 9, 2000 3:46 PM +0100 Lynne Murphy <lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK>
wrote:

> Using the excuse of this subject heading to point out another US/UK
> distinction:
>
> If you see a sign in London marked 'subway' with an arrow pointing down,
> it's pointing to a walkway under a road or train track.  It's not
> pointing you the way to the Tube.
>
> Lynne
>
> Dr M Lynne Murphy
> Lecturer in Linguistics
> School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
> University of Sussex
> Brighton BN1 9QH
> UK



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Jun  9 16:43:36 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 17:43:36 +0100
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.174336.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter asked:
> Have Londoners taken to calling the Underground "the tube"
> indiscriminately?  I had it explained to me by a Londoner back in the 60s
> that "tube" referred only to the routes created by underground drilling at
> greater depths, like the Picadilly and Bakerloo Lines, and would not be
> used of routes like the Circle Line, which were near enough to the surface
> to be created by the "break and cover" method.  I think I even read the
> same thing in some guide book.  I've taken it as gospel ever since, but
> maybe it was always more technical than colloquial.

I haven't heard anyone make the distinction, but then I don't live in London,
so maybe people up there are pickier.  When I've asked "can I get there by
tube?", no one's corrected me and I'm typically going on the Circle and
District lines.  The guide for visitors at londontown.com says:

begin quote
The London underground is known as 'the
tube', and has 270 stations along 11
different lines. It is the oldest underground
system in the world, the official opening
being 10 January, 1863.
end quote

So they, at least, don't seem to be making the distinction.  (It's a
London-based site, in spite of the .com ending.)

Lynne


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Jun  9 17:18:06 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:18:06 -0700
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.101806.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Robert S. Wachal" wrote:
>
> Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
> vulgarities were often uttered in silent films?
>
> Bob Wachal

Bob,
Is it possible to add a subject line to your messages?  It greatly aids in email
sorting, searching, and viewing.
Thank you,
Andrea
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Child" by Aardman Animation


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  9 03:42:27 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:42:27 EDT
Subject: Wrap sandwiches; Tuna melt; Turkey Wattle
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.234227.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WRAP SANDWICHES

  "Wraps" are not in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA.  They're not in the OED.
  It's easy to check on computer databases.  The term "wrap" was popularized by a wrap restaurant in San Francisco in 1995.  However, wraps have been around awhile.
  This is from FAMILY CIRCLE, July 1975, pg. 86:

_WRAP-UPS_
   FROM CREPES TO CANNELLONI!  Whatever you call them, you'll find them everywhere, for every country has its own version--some form of thin dough wrapped or rolled around a tasty filling.  You can make a hearty main-dish or sweet dessert wrap-ups; you can make the wrappers ahead and freeze them.  Wrap-ups are a good way to use leftover tidbits, and--most important--people love them!

  Someone asked for the history of "rap," no?

--------------------------------------------------------
TUNA MELT

  Jessie Sheidlower has given the order for a pre-1977 "melt."  I checked through FAMILY CIRCLE of the early 1970s, and it wasn't there.
  My thought is that it originated in a 1970s ad for Kraft cheeses--probably for Velveeta.  Companies often keep their old advertising on file.  (I once asked Budweiser for their 1904 "We're from Missouri" ad.)
  "Tuna Stretches Food Dollars" in the March 20, 1970 CHICAGO TRIBUNE doesn't have "tuna melt."
  James Beard's book (1972) doesn't have "melt."
  It's not one of the nine tuna dishes in the October 1973 FAMILY CIRCLE.
  FAMILY CIRCLE June 1975, pg. 115, has a Kraft ad for VELVEETA.  "Good old Velveeta.  Good in so many ways."  One of the ways is: "Slice it on your tuna bake and you'll see what we mean."
  I'm sure Kraft will have that 1970s "melt."

--------------------------------------------------------
TURKEY WATTLE

  "Turkey wattle" is not in the OED.
  I've been going through the Chicago Tribune for "gyro."  "'Turkey Wattle:' Telltale Sign of Age" is in 23 May 1970, section 2, pg. 20, cols. 4-8:

  "Turkey wattle" under the chin is a dead giveaway for advancing years and can make even a smooth, youthful face look older. (...) "Turkey wattle" underchin looseness often appears in men and women in their forties and fifties, but it sometimes shows up even earlier.

  The article is from the book PLASTIC SURGERY: BEAUTY YOU CAN BUY (1970) by Harriet La Barre.


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Jun  9 05:12:18 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:12:18 -0400
Subject: Shill Bidding
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.011218.0400.>

I wish I could recall some of the Panini sutras (concerning sandhis and samasas)
I learned in high school. Recently, thanks to bibliographic help from Ron
Butters, I studied some of the more modern stuff about noun+noun compounds. This
was in connection with a trademark like Pizza Hut, I think. The point I am trying

to make is that, because we know what a "shill" is and what "bidding" is, it
doesn't necessarily follow that we know what "shill bidding" is; it is not that
transparent. However, from the structure of the compound, we do know that it is a

kind of bidding just as we know that "bidding war" is a kind of war.  As a
practicing lexicographer lying sleepless in Niagara Falls, I would say there
isn't enough room in earthly dictionaries for all nontransparent compounds to be
entered and defined. They have to make the grade based on frequency of occurrence

in the language.

"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:

> This seems to me to be an interesting case of "lexicon" (including
> "lexicalized compositions") versus "transparent composition," a difficulty
> which surely keeps real lexicographers awake at night. We know what a
> "shill" is, and we know what "bidding" is. Therefore, we know what "shill
> bidding" is (and it doesn't suprise me that it isn't in a dictionary). For
> example, we know what "big" is, and we know what "dog" is. Therefore , we
> know what a "big dog" is (and don't find it in the dictionary). I can
> already think of lots of objections to that characterization (caricature?),
> and I wonder what practicing lexicographers have to say about it these days....
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Bapopik at AOL.COM <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000 12:24 AM
> >Subject: Shill Bidding; The Art of Eating Well
> >
> >
> >>SHILL BIDDING
> >>
> >>   The FBI announced today that it's looking into "shill bidding," or "self
> >bidding," on eBay.  That's when friends bid on their own stuff to drive up
> >the price.  It's illegal.
> >>   The term is not in the online OED.
> >
> >
> >On Lovejoy, this was called 'a ring', as in a ring of friends, accomplices,
> >cohorts, what have you, who would bid up the price at auction. Of course, I
> >have no idea how closely the TV series hewed to the written source, and how
> >accurately the books described the dodgy side of the British antique
> >business...
> >
> >bkd
>
> Dennis R. Preston
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
> preston at pilot.msu.edu
> Office: (517)353-0740
> Fax: (517)432-2736

[My own unconstructed "SIGNATURE" in just 6 lines] Thomas M. Paikeday,
lexicographer & language consultant since 1964, ed. The User's Webster
Dictionary, a unique dictionary for home, school, and office that defines words
in their typical contexts and provides examples of idiomatic usage, 2000, ISBN
0-920865-03-8, trade paperback, xviii + 1262 pp., US$7.99 / Cdn$11.95. Order from
University of Toronto Press Fulfillment Services, (800) 565-9523, fax (800)
221-9985, utpbooks at utpress.utoronto.ca. Published by Lexicography, Inc., Toronto
& New York, (905)371-2065, fax: (905)371-3120.


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Fri Jun  9 18:59:23 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:59:23 +0100
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
In-Reply-To: <E130RqK-0000Pf-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.195923.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 9/6/00 5:43 PM, Lynne Murphy wrote:

> Peter asked:
>> Have Londoners taken to calling the Underground "the tube"
>> indiscriminately?  I had it explained to me by a Londoner back in the 60s
>> that "tube" referred only to the routes created by underground drilling at
>> greater depths, like the Picadilly and Bakerloo Lines, and would not be
>> used of routes like the Circle Line, which were near enough to the surface
>> to be created by the "break and cover" method.  I think I even read the
>> same thing in some guide book.  I've taken it as gospel ever since, but
>> maybe it was always more technical than colloquial.
>
> I haven't heard anyone make the distinction, but then I don't live in London,
> so maybe people up there are pickier.  When I've asked "can I get there by
> tube?", no one's corrected me and I'm typically going on the Circle and
> District lines.  The guide for visitors at londontown.com says:
>

I don't know about in London, but here in Edinburgh (where there are a lot
of Londoners, admittedly), "the tube" refers to the London Underground.  The
whole system.  But, I sense a drift of "tube" meaning *any* (partially)
subterranean rail system.  So, I don't think locals would bat an eyelid if
someone were to mention the tube in Glasgow. In fact, my in-laws have
mentioned taking the tube in New York.

Does "tube" have a [j] (or [y], depending on convention) in any American
dialects?  Here, it's pronounced like "chewb", which causes me a slight
giggle every so often, despite years of "scientifically studying" this
stuff.

--Aaron

________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
  --Death


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Fri Jun  9 18:46:28 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:46:28 -0400
Subject: The Art of Eating Well
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.144628.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The epicurean Barry Popik observes:

>>>>>
   It's interesting to compare this with the Mother Leone Italian cookbook.
"Spumoni" is not here, but Mother Leone's restaurant served spumoni on its
opening day in 1906.  "Pizza" is here in 1891, as are cannelloni, focaccia,
frittata, gelato, gnocchi, veal scaloppine, semolina, and much more.
<<<<<

Mother Leone? Who she?

Now, I remember *Mamma* Leone's famous Italian restaurant.


-- Mark
When all else fails, panic.
Come to think of it, why wait?


From funex79 at SLONET.ORG  Fri Jun  9 21:00:24 2000
From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:00:24 -0700
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.140024.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Speaking as an ex-New Yorker,  I believe there is a system in NY known to
locals as The Tubes. It refers to a separate system that runs from somewhere
in lower Manhattan, under the Hudson River to Newark or Jersey City. It is
referred to as the Hudson Tubes.

J Foster
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron E. Drews" <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)


> on 9/6/00 5:43 PM, Lynne Murphy wrote:
>
> > Peter asked:
> >> Have Londoners taken to calling the Underground "the tube"
> >> indiscriminately?  I had it explained to me by a Londoner back in the
60s
> >> that "tube" referred only to the routes created by underground drilling
at
> >> greater depths, like the Picadilly and Bakerloo Lines, and would not be
> >> used of routes like the Circle Line, which were near enough to the
surface
> >> to be created by the "break and cover" method.  I think I even read the
> >> same thing in some guide book.  I've taken it as gospel ever since, but
> >> maybe it was always more technical than colloquial.
> >
> > I haven't heard anyone make the distinction, but then I don't live in
London,
> > so maybe people up there are pickier.  When I've asked "can I get there
by
> > tube?", no one's corrected me and I'm typically going on the Circle and
> > District lines.  The guide for visitors at londontown.com says:
> >
>
> I don't know about in London, but here in Edinburgh (where there are a lot
> of Londoners, admittedly), "the tube" refers to the London Underground.
The
> whole system.  But, I sense a drift of "tube" meaning *any* (partially)
> subterranean rail system.  So, I don't think locals would bat an eyelid if
> someone were to mention the tube in Glasgow. In fact, my in-laws have
> mentioned taking the tube in New York.
>
> Does "tube" have a [j] (or [y], depending on convention) in any American
> dialects?  Here, it's pronounced like "chewb", which causes me a slight
> giggle every so often, despite years of "scientifically studying" this
> stuff.
>
> --Aaron
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
> http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
> aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics
>
>  "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
>   --Death
>


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Jun  9 21:06:25 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:06:25 -0700
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
In-Reply-To: <B566FD1A.23C9%aaron@ling.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.140625.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

During my years in New York I don't recall hearing anyone call the city
subway system "the tube," but I did learn that what is today the PATH
system connecting NYC and New Jersey used to be called "The Hudson Tubes."
I don't know whether this system was referred to colloquially as "the
tube," or "the tubes," at that time.

Peter Mc.



--On Fri, Jun 9, 2000 7:59 PM +0100 "Aaron E. Drews" <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK>
wrote:

> In fact, my in-laws have
> mentioned taking the tube in New York.



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Fri Jun  9 21:39:20 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:39:20 -0500
Subject: No subject
In-Reply-To: <394126CE.92910418@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.163920.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THANK YO U, MY DEAR, WHOEVER AND WHEREVER YOU ARE.  Your advice is golden
and I have complied with a resend.  Sorry for the screaming caps==an accident.

Bob

At 10:18 AM 6/9/00 -0700, you wrote:
>"Robert S. Wachal" wrote:
>>
>> Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
>> vulgarities were often uttered in silent films?
>>
>> Bob Wachal
>
>Bob,
>Is it possible to add a subject line to your messages?  It greatly aids in
email
>sorting, searching, and viewing.
>Thank you,
>Andrea
>--
>Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
>"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
>--From "Angry Child" by Aardman Animation
>
>


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Jun  9 21:44:15 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 17:44:15 -0400
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
In-Reply-To: <193353.3169530389@dhcp-218-202-123.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.174415.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

>Have Londoners taken to calling the Underground "the tube"
>indiscriminately?

I lived in London 1970-71, and I don't recall its ever being called
anything else - then or since.

Bethany


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Fri Jun  9 22:32:26 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 17:32:26 -0500
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.173226.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Aaron Drews asks:

> Does "tube" have a [j] (or [y], depending on convention) in any American
> dialects?

Yes.  It's [tjub] in my Mississippi dialect.

   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)

PS: I don't see the trains on the Picadilly Line as angry at all.
That's my favorite line.  It's especially exciting to watch the
Cockfosters train as it races into or out of a tube.  That's
vitality, not anger.


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Sat Jun 10 00:48:52 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:48:52 -0400
Subject: cussing in silent movies
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000609074537.007cb730@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.204852.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Robert S. Wachal wrote:

> Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
> vulgarities were often uttered in silent films?

A silent movie buff friend of mine suggests that you check out
alt.movies.silent on Usenet. Check the FAQ, and if nothing's mentioned
there, ask away.


--- Steve K.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Jun 10 04:44:03 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 21:44:03 -0700
Subject: Pronunciation of "tube"
In-Reply-To: <200006100401.VAA21076@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.214403.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Aaron--
        Consult the forematter in DARE or The Pronunciation of English in
the Atlantic States (PEAS) on the distribution of the palatal glide before
/uw/ after alveolars in American varieties (not "dialects", please) of
English. I, like Natalie and most Southerners, use /tyuwb/, /nyuw/, etc.
(but not for words like "noon", where the /uw/ comes from /ow/).

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 10 08:10:53 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 04:10:53 EDT
Subject: From Soup to Nuts
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.041053.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  From soup to nuts.
  This isn't the condition that George "Superman" Reeves went through, is it?
  I couldn't find it on the MOA.  I didn't check American Memory.
  OED has 1910, "US colloq., from beginning to end, completely, everything."
  Stevenson's QUOTATIONS has Horace (35 BC), "From the egg to the apples."  A 1941 quotation has "Nuts to soup (they were eating dinner backwards)."
  Christine Ammer's AHDOI has:

_from soup to nuts_  Also, _from A to Z_ or _start to finish_ or _stem to stern._  (...)  The first expression, with its analogy to the first and last courses of a meal, appeared in slightly different forms (such as _from potage to cheese_) from the 1500s on; the precise wording here dates only from the mid-1900s.

   From the GOOD HOUSEKEEPING Topical Index, May, 1897:

>From Soup to Peanuts.
  Green Pea Soup
  Fried Beef Steak
  A Spinach Luncheon
  Salted Peanuts


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Sat Jun 10 17:54:54 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 12:54:54 -0500
Subject: vulgarities in silent films
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.125454.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I got just one response, so I am posting once again.

Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
vulgarities were often uttered in silent films?

Bob Wachal


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 10 19:23:37 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:23:37 -0400
Subject: vulgarities in silent films
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000610125454.007eb800@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.152337.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Robert S. Wachal wrote:

> I got just one response, so I am posting once again.
>
> Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
> vulgarities were often uttered in silent films?

I don't know whether journalistic sources are helpful to you for this
purpose, but the article by Bill Jones in the Phoenix Gazette, July 7,
1994, makes this claim.

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sat Jun 10 20:13:09 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 16:13:09 -0400
Subject: vulgarities in silent films
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000610125454.007eb800@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.161309.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Robert S. Wachal wrote:

>I got just one response, so I am posting once again.
>
>Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
>vulgarities were often uttered in silent films?

I'm having trouble with this question. Since the films were silent, how
could anything have been uittered in them? I thought it was a trick
qustion.

Bethany


From faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 10 21:17:09 2000
From: faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:17:09 -0400
Subject: vulgarities in silent films
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10006101612010.6953-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.171709.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:13 PM -0400 6/10/2000, Bethany K. Dumas wrote, ostensibly about
Re: vulgarities in silent films:
>On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Robert S. Wachal wrote:
>
>>I got just one response, so I am posting once again.
>>
>>Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
>>vulgarities were often uttered in silent films?
>
>I'm having trouble with this question. Since the films were silent, how
>could anything have been uittered in them? I thought it was a trick
>qustion.

You just don't have a sneaky, suspicious mind, Bethany. I interpreted
the question as being whether the actors in silents were "saying"
(i.e., mouthing) words that mismatched the subtitles, perhaps in ways
that wouldn't have been allowed at the time.

I'd never heard this, but it does have enough of an urban legend
quality to it that I think pretty strong confirmation would be
required. Even statements by actors from these movies, obviously many
years after the fact, could be embellished to make a good story.
--
Alice Faber                                       tel. (203) 865-6163
Haskins Laboratories                              fax  (203) 865-8963
270 Crown St           new improved email: faber at pop.haskins.yale.edu
New Haven, CT 06511    old email, if you must: faber at haskins.yale.edu


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Sat Jun 10 21:46:07 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 16:46:07 -0500
Subject: vulgarities in silent films
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10006101612010.6953-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.164607.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember reading that deaf lip readers used to variously complain or
enjoy the vulgar utterances. I would not waste your time with a trick
question nor an idle one.  I am finishing a paper for American Speech on
vulgar language.

Bob

At 04:13 PM 6/10/00 -0400, you wrote:
>On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Robert S. Wachal wrote:
>
>>I got just one response, so I am posting once again.
>>
>>Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
>>vulgarities were often uttered in silent films?
>
>I'm having trouble with this question. Since the films were silent, how
>could anything have been uittered in them? I thought it was a trick
>qustion.
>
>Bethany
>
>


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sat Jun 10 21:56:22 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:56:22 -0400
Subject: vulgarities in silent films
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000610164607.007e0b80@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.175622.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Robert S. Wachal wrote:

>I remember reading that deaf lip readers used to variously complain or
>enjoy the vulgar utterances. I would not waste your time with a trick
>question nor an idle one.  I am finishing a paper for American Speech on
>vulgar language.

Thanks for the clarification, Bob.

Bethany


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sat Jun 10 22:28:03 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 18:28:03 -0400
Subject: vulgarities in silent films
In-Reply-To: <a04310101b5685fe96546@[208.58.250.173]>
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.182803.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Alice Faber wrote:

>You just don't have a sneaky, suspicious mind, Bethany. I interpreted
>the question as being whether the actors in silents were "saying"
>(i.e., mouthing) words that mismatched the subtitles, perhaps in ways
>that wouldn't have been allowed at the time.

I'll work on that Alice!

Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 10 22:49:56 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 18:49:56 EDT
Subject: vulgarities in silent films
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.184956.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  Mel Brooks did a spoof of this in his film, SILENT MOVIE.  I haven't seen the film for quite a while, though, so I could be wrong.  All I really remember is the Burt Reynolds shower scene.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 10 23:17:00 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 19:17:00 EDT
Subject: Black Talk (1970)
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.191700.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BLACK TALK (1970)

  I've been going through the Chicago Tribune in my "gyro" search.
  From the CHICAGO TRIBUNE MAGAZINE, 20 September 1970, pg. 50:

_Black Talk_
Presenting Mrs. Hermese Roberts, a together school principal whose boss glossary of idioms may improve communication between the gray boys and brothers.
   (...)  The English Language Institute of America asked her to undertake the project; it would distribute the glossary to its client corporations, large firms which hire black help. (...)

   The terms (with nice, long definitions) are:

bawstid; big juice; blood; blue-eyed soul brother; boss dick; burn; bustin(g); case; chuck; creep; crumbcrushers; dap, dapt; do; do rag; down; dues; dusties; FBI (Fat, Black, Ignorant)(RHHDAS 1961 for Fat Bald Ignorant, 1974 for this--ed.); flew coy; fox; Georgia ham (DARE 1971--ed.); get hat; get in the wind; got some chest; get wasted; give me some skin; going for; gowster, gouster; gray boy; grease; grip; hammer; happy shop; hard legs; hawk; herb; hinety; hog; honky; ice that!; letter from home; light housekeeping; main mellow; main squeeze; mammy; member; mink; nod; nose open; ofay; off; oreo; paddy; peck; pig; playing the dozens; Ralph Bunche; ready; real down; rip off; screaming on; set; shackin(g); sheen; sho' 'nuff; side; sky piece; smash; soft legs; soul brother; stallion; stone, strung out; taste; thang; The Man; together; vines.

--------------------------------------------------------APPLE (NATIVE AMERICAN SLANG)

   RHHDAS has 1980.
   From the CHICAGO TRIBUNE MAGAZINE, 2 August 1970, pg. 44, col. 2:

   Well, that's another problem Indians have.  A lot of them don't know who they are or want to be.  Some people tell them to be white because that's success.  Other people tell them to be Indian because that's strength.  Many have solved the problem by becoming what militant Indians call "apples," red outside and white inside.  Tonto was an "apple."  "Apples" couldn't care less about the antics on Alcatraz.  "Apples" also usually have good jobs.


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Sat Jun 10 23:21:10 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 18:21:10 -0500
Subject: books for sale?
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.182110.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

-
There used to be sites in which one could offer books for sale, but I can't
seem to find any.  I have a number of old dictionaries that I need to get
rid of. Can anyone help with a suggestion?

TIA

Bob


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 10 23:33:15 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 19:33:15 EDT
Subject: Monte Cristo sandwich (continued)
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.193315.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From GOURMET, May 1955, pg. 66, col. 3:

Q. I'm giving a stag party, and want to serve Monte Cristo sandwiches.  I've looked everywhere, including my copy of THE GOURMET COOKBOOK, for the recipe, but no luck.
ROBERT H. MIDDOUGH
LONG BEACH, CALIFORNIA

A.  S'truth, the recipe was masquerading under the title of _croque monsieur_.  Here's an Americanized version of a famous French snack.
   _Monte Cristo Sandwich_
   Cut the crusts from 3 thin slices of white bread.  Spread the first slice with butter and cover with lean baked ham and chicken.  Butter the second slice on both sides, lay it on the ham and chicken and cover with thin slices of Swiss cheese.  Finish with the third slice (Pg. 67, col. 1) of bread.  Cut the sandwich in half, fasten the halves with wooden toothpicks, and dip them in a batter made of 2 eggs lightly beaten with 1 cup cold milk and seasoned to taste with salt and white pepper.  Saute the sandwich in butter until golden brown on both sides.  Remove the picks and serve immediately.


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sat Jun 10 23:27:33 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 19:27:33 -0400
Subject: books for sale?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000610182110.007d3600@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.192733.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>There used to be sites in which one could offer books for sale, but I can't
>seem to find any.  I have a number of old dictionaries that I need to get
>rid of. Can anyone help with a suggestion?

eBay?

If you have a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th (not revised 4th) edition _Black's
Law Dictionary_=, I am interested.

Bethany


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Jun 11 01:15:51 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:15:51 -0400
Subject: books for sale?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000610182110.007d3600@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> from
 "Robert S. Wachal" at Jun 10, 2000 06:21:10 PM
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.211551.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> -
> There used to be sites in which one could offer books for sale, but I can't
> seem to find any.  I have a number of old dictionaries that I need to get
> rid of. Can anyone help with a suggestion?

Post 'em here! Some of us are trying to start up departmental
libraries, and need to fill them.

Jesse Sheidlower
Oxford English Dictionary


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 11 01:49:29 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:49:29 EDT
Subject: Black Talk (1970)
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.214929.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I assume that Barry knows that reputable dictionaries of African-American
English have been published.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 11 01:53:26 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:53:26 EDT
Subject: vulgarities in silent films
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.215326.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/10/2000 4:50:49 PM, robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU writes:

<< >>
>>Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
>>vulgarities were often uttered in silent films? >>

I don't know the anser to this question, but I do know that the translation
of foreign vulgarities in English subtitles can be weird and wonderful. For
example, I once saw a German film in which the German teenager said something
to his mother that literally meant something like "This shit car of mine." It
was translated into the English subtitles as "This fucking car of mine."


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 11 01:58:24 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:58:24 EDT
Subject: albondigas! no te dije!
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.215824.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Driving back from the beach through rural eastern North Carolina I saw this
sign a sale of double-wide trailors: "Tres dormitorios! Dos banos! [sic] $199
mes!"

This would not be surprising in southern Texas or southern Florida, but not
too many years ago the locals down east put up billboards praising the KKK.
Clearly, bilingual America is here to stay!


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 11 02:24:58 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 22:24:58 EDT
Subject: Chimichangas/Chimichongas (continued)
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.222458.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    From SEASONED WITH SUN: A BLENDING OF CULTURES (1974) by the Junior League of El Paso (TX), pg. 224:

CHIMICHONGAS
3 pounds beef, cut in small cubes
Lard
6 green chiles, roasted and peeled
1-2 serrano chiles
1 large onion, diced
1 clove garlic
2-3 tomatoes, quartered
2 cups beef stock
1/2 teaspoon oregano
Salt and pepper
Flour tortillas
Longhorn or Monterey Jack cheese
   Brown meat in lard.  Place chiles including seeds in blender with onion, garlic and tomatoes.  Puree and add to browned meat with stock and seasonings.  Cover and simmer 2-3 hours.  Cook until thick, being careful not to burn during last part of cooking.  Fill flour tortillas as for burritos, using toothpicks if necessary to keep filling inside.  Deep fat fry until golden brown; drain and put on broiler rack.  Sprinkle with grated cheese and melt under broiler until bubbly.  Serve immediately.

   From FAMILY CIRCLE, February 1977, pg. 110, col. 2:

CHIMICHANGAS
A chimichanga is a burrito or rolled, stuffed flour tortilla that has been fried to a golden crispness.  The frying changes the flavor and texture of the tortilla.  They can be made with any type of filling, such as chili con carne, refried beans or cheese.  They're also excellent as a dessert filled with pie filling and dusted with 10X sugar.

   GOURMET has a long article by Anne Lindsay Greer (Flavors of the American Southwest, November 1984, pp. 62+):
Pg. 62, col. 1: Tex-Mex is the Texas or "Americanized" version of Mexican food.
Pg. 198, col. 2: Tex-Mex literally means "Texas interpretation of Mexican food."
Pg. 202, col. 2:  This Sonoran tortilla is the basis for many of the dishes that distinguish Arizona cooking, including the cheese crisp (or Tucson tostado), _chimichanga_, _burro_, and _tostada del rey_.
Pg. 207, col. 3:  _Fajitas_, indigenous to San Antonio, Texas, and so often served with _pico de gallo_, a _salsa_-like accompaniment, are popular under other names, such as _carne asada_ in California and parts of Arizona.
Pg. 199, col. 1: _fajitas_ (grilled skirt steaks)


From funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM  Sun Jun 11 03:33:56 2000
From: funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM (Jordan Rich)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 20:33:56 -0700
Subject: Black Talk (1970)
In-Reply-To: <61.45f7766.26744a29@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.203356.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 09:49 PM 6/10/00 -0400, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>I assume that Barry knows that reputable dictionaries of African-American
>English have been published.

I have many books on AAVE listed on my website at:
http://funkmasterj.tripod.com/toasts.html#Toasts

Jordan Rich
Independent Scholar


From funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM  Sun Jun 11 03:38:14 2000
From: funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM (Jordan Rich)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 20:38:14 -0700
Subject: Black Talk 2
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.203814.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Also, FYI - I have read Hermese Roberts' pamphlet....

Jordan Rich
Independent Scholar


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 11 06:24:42 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 02:24:42 EDT
Subject: "Coffee, tea or me?"
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.022442.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    "Coffee, tea or me" is not in any of the phrase books that I just went through.  Maybe Fred Shapiro will include it?
    I'll do a larger "coffee" posting eventually.  It's ninety degrees out--I need a nice cup of hot java.
    From TRUE (humor page), October 1965, pg. 140, col. 2:

    My friend Bev, a former airline stewardess grounded by marriage, finally went back to work as a stewardess for a large company on their executive airplane.
    Thrilled by the prospect of flying again, she reported to the pilot on board the aircraft for her first trip.  Attempting to be funny as well as friendly, she quipped, "Hi!  What'll it be--coffee, tea or me?"
    With a quick appraising glance the veteran pilot replied, "Suit yourself, sister.  Whatever's the easiest to make."
R. J. Putman
Arvada, Colorado


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Sun Jun 11 11:15:44 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 06:15:44 -0500
Subject: books for sale?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10006101926030.12466-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.061544.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Bethany.  Sorry, but I don't have Black's.

Best,

Bob

At 07:27 PM 6/10/00 -0400, you wrote:
>>There used to be sites in which one could offer books for sale, but I can't
>>seem to find any.  I have a number of old dictionaries that I need to get
>>rid of. Can anyone help with a suggestion?
>
>eBay?
>
>If you have a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th (not revised 4th) edition _Black's
>Law Dictionary_=, I am interested.
>
>Bethany
>
>


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Sun Jun 11 11:20:26 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 06:20:26 -0500
Subject: dictionaries for sale
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.062026.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In response to Jesse's suggestion, here is the list of dictionaries I have
available for purchase.

Bob

DICTIONARIES TO SELL OR DONATE

Funk & Wagnalls New Practical Standard Dictionary of the English Language,
"1949 Edition," 2 vols., New York: Funk & Wagnalls Company, 1946.  Good
condition but binding rubbed

The New Century Dictionary of the English Language, 3 vols., New York: D.
Appleton Century Company,1936. Good condition

Funk & Wagnalls New Practical Standard Dictionary of the English Language,
Thumb-indexed
"New York: Funk & Wagnalls Company, 1931.  Good condition but binding rubbed


Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of the English Language, International
Edition,
2 vols., Chicago: J.G. Ferguson Publishing Co., 1978. Good condition

Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of the English Language, International
Edition,
2 vols., Chicago: J.G. Ferguson Publishing Co., 1978. Good condition

The New Century Dictionary of the English Language, 2 vols.,New York: D.
Appleton Century Company,1948. Good condition

Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language, Second College
Edition, Deluxe Color Edition, New York: Simon & Shusrter, 1980.  Fine
condition with worn dust jscket.

Funk & Wagnalls New Practical Standard Dictionary of the English Language,
2 vols., Funk & Wagnalls Company, 1955.  Good condition but binding rubbed

The Oxford Universal Dictionary on Historical Principles, 3rd ed., Oxford:
Clarendon Press,1955.  Spine stained.

The Universal Dictionary of the English Language, London: George Routledge
& Sons, Ltd., 1932, Purchased from Rulon-Miller Books for $150.  Seller
notes "half-title with vertical crease, the whole somewhat wobbly,
otherwise a good and reasonably sound copy.

Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language, Encyclopedic
Edition, Cleveland: World Publishing Company, 1952.  Fair condition, tears
in binding

Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language, 3 vols.,
Springfield: G&C Merriam Company, 1950, binding faded, otherwise in good
condition.

The New Century Dictionary of the English Language, 3 vols.,New York:
TheCentury Company,1927. Binding worn.

Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language Compact Desk
Edition, Cleveland: World Publishing Company, 1963

An American Dictionary of the English Language, Noah Webster, revised and
enlarged by Chauncey A. Goodrich, Chicago: Donohue & Henneberry, 1896.
Binding loose, pages yellowed.

The American College Dictionary, New York: Random House,1950. Binding rubbed

The American College Dictionary, New York: Random House,1960, Excellent
condition

Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language, College Edition,
Cleveland: World Publishing Company, 1968. Pages slightly yellowed, binding
fine, dust jacket a bit worn

Thorndike Barnhart Comprehensive Desk Dictionary, New York: Doubleday &
Company, 1962. Binding has a tear and is rubbed, otherwise condition is
excellent.

Thorndike Barnhart Comprehensive Desk Dictionary, New York: Doubleday &
Company, 1967. Binding broken.

Thorndike Barnhart Comprehensive Desk Dictionary, New York: Doubleday &
Company, 1965. Small tear in binding

The Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors, Oxford: Clarendon Press,
1981.  Book and dust jacket in fine condition.

Oxford American Dictionary, new York, Oxford University Press, 1980. Book
and dust jacket in fine condition.

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 3rd edition,thumb-indexed, Springfield:
G&C Merriam Company, 1924
Binding worn and coming off.  Part of one page is missing.

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 4th edition, Springfield: G&Cerriam
Company, 1934. Rebound, fair condition.

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 5th edition, Springfield: G&C Merriam
Company, 1948. Biding rubbed and coming loose.

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 5th edition, Springfield: G&C Merriam
Company, 1948. Biding rubbed, , library copy.

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 6th edition, Springfield: G&C Merriam
Company, 1949. Biding rubbed.

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 7th edition, Springfield: G&C Merriam
Company, 1963. Biding rubbed.

Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, "Private Library
Edition,"Springfield: G&C Merriam Company, 1983.  Fine condition.

Thorndike Century Junior Dictionary, Revised Edition,Chicago: Scott,
Foresman and Company, 1942.Good condition.

The New Penguin English Dictionary, London: Penguin Books, Soft cover,
1986.  Fine condition.

The Wordsworth Concise English Dictionary, Ware: Wordsworth Editions, Ltd.,
1993, paper cover.  Fine condition.

Random House Dictionary of the English Language, Unabridged edition, New
York: Random House, 1967

American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Boston: Houghton
Mifflin, 1969

Random House Webster's College Dictionary, New York: Random House, 1991

Cambridge International Dictionary of English, cambridge: CUP, 1995, paper

Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English, New Edition, (2nd ed.), Harlow:
Lonmn Group, 1987, paper

Concise Oxford Dictionary, New Fourth Edition, Oxford: Clarendon Press,
1959, dust jacket torn, otherwise fine condition.

Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, New Edition, (5th ed.) Oxford: OUP, 1995

Cassell Dictionary of Abbreviations, London: Cassell wellington House,
1996, book and dust jacket in fine condition

Penguin Dictionary for Writers and Editors, London: Penguin Books, 1991,
book and dust jacket in fine condition

Webster's New World Dictionary of Acronyms and Abbreviations, new York:
Simon and Schuster, 1989

Webster's Guide to Abbreviations, Springfield: Merriam-Webster, 1985


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Sun Jun 11 14:05:48 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 15:05:48 +0100
Subject: dictionaries for sale
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.150548.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bob, if you don't succeed in selling the dictionaries here, the Linguist
List has a 'Notice Board' site at which they post such things.

http://linguistlist.org/~notice/

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 11 16:51:49 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 12:51:49 EDT
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.125149.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/9/2000 4:54:33 PM, dumasb at UTK.EDU writes:

<< >Have Londoners taken to calling the Underground "the tube"
>indiscriminately?

I lived in London 1970-71, and I don't recall its ever being called
anything else - then or since.

Bethany
 >>

Well, Bethany, I I have certainly heard it referred to as "The Underground"


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 11 18:13:22 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:13:22 -0400
Subject: Permafudgies; Rainfill
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.141322.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

1)  I was wondering how wide the domain of 'fudgies' was (i.e. whether it
was specifically a Youper (Upper Peninsula) expression)...

> And Mike Sheehan
> told me that where he lives in northern Michigan tourists are known
> as Fudgies "because of their proclivity for buying fudge in the
> innumerable tourist shops".

...so I asked a friend in the northwest corner of the mitten (lower
peninsula) whether she was familiar with the term, and she contributed this
codicil:

>Lake Leelanau counts, definitely.  The whole county.  Plus also the
>Traverse City area.  Dick Murdock's fudge (that's a chain store) is the most
>common type.  Another word for the day is 'permafudgie'.  That's people
>like my >parents who decide to move up there for good.

Joan, do you have 'permafudgie' for the DARE volume containing P yet?

2)  John McEnroe, commenting on the very tight and well-played last set of
today's men's French Open final, predicted that it would be 'rainfill' for
many years to come--evidently a technical term from the tennis world for a
match that is rerun to fill the dead air caused by a rain delay in the
televised transmission of a tournament.  Ultimately related to 'landfill',
I assume.  Any other cites for this?

My quick search on Nexis/Lexis came up with no hits for either
'permafudgie' or 'landfill', but since this is the new, "improved" Academic
Universe version, that doesn't mean too much.

larry


From vneufeldt at M-W.COM  Sun Jun 11 19:15:04 2000
From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 15:15:04 -0400
Subject: books for sale?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000610182110.007d3600@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.151504.0400.>

The Cordell Collection at Indiana State (now one of the largest dictionary
collections in the country, and an impetus for the establishment of the
Dictionary Society of North America in the 70s) would certainly be
interested in anything that they're missing.  I would be happy to put you in
touch with David Vancil, the curator of the collection.  I don't have his
e-mail address handy at the moment, so let me know.

Madeline Kripke of New York was a first-rate dictionary collector and
seller, with quite a large business, but I don't know if she's still doing
this.  Haven't had any contact with her for a few years, but I could find
out.  If she is, I know she would give you a fair price for anything she was
interested in.

I have to say (blush) that I'm a sucker for dictionaries myself, so I might
also be a customer.  Perhaps you should list what you have on this list --
there are probably a number of people like me on it.

Victoria
Merriam-Webster, Inc. P.O. Box 281
Springfield, MA 01102
Tel: 413-734-3134  ext 124
Fax: 413-827-7262


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Robert S. Wachal
> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 7:21 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: books for sale?
>
>
> -
> There used to be sites in which one could offer books for sale,
> but I can't
> seem to find any.  I have a number of old dictionaries that I need to get
> rid of. Can anyone help with a suggestion?
>
> TIA
>
> Bob
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 11 19:55:25 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 15:55:25 EDT
Subject: Abuzz.com censorship!
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.155525.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   As I've stated here: last Sunday, after four years, the New York Times decided to correctly spell my name.
   This was in response to an Abuzz.com posting, "New York Times & the Truth," that I had made on 4-28-00.  My Abuzz.com name is POPIK3.
   Lisa Carparelli, a spokesman (she used "spokesman") for the New York Times, then added a response on Abuzz that I partially quoted here.  Yes, they would correctly spell my name.  No, they would not issue any other apology.  She cited that 1909 Edward Martin extended metaphor to suggest that The New York Times couldn't print anything about John J. Fitz Gerald because my "Big Apple" work was wrong.
   I provided a blistering Abuzz.com reply.
   First, I again mentioned that the paper should reply to all that I've said, and should correct all errors.
   Second, I pointed out that the Times's latest excuse for not printing my "Big Apple" work after eight years was both wrong and inconsistent.  After all, the Times had made passing mention to my work three times (1996 article, 1997 on Good Day New York which now seems strangely missing on Nexis, and Sept. 1998).
  I had stated here that you can find this illogical response from a spokesman of the paper of record by using any of a bunch of keywords in the Abuzz.com Search box.
  I recently tried these words:
Big Apple
New York Times
Lisa Carparelli
Irving Lewis Allen
City in Slang
Wayfarer in New York
1909
Charles Gillett
POPIK3
   You can't get to the posting!  There's obviously been a cookie attached to it!  They don't want you to read it!
   Please, look for it NOW!
   Meanwhile, William Safire and Katy Miller (ADS colleagues) still do nothing!


From MAVINSON5 at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 11 20:17:45 2000
From: MAVINSON5 at AOL.COM (MAVINSON5 at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:17:45 EDT
Subject: was/were
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.161745.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If rhoticism has not taken place, how would the equivalent of were be spelled
in Old English?  waezon instead of wearon?  Also in Mod. Eng., would it be
spelled weze?  I have seen different books spell were: waezon, waeson,
waesun, waezun.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 12 01:47:51 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 21:47:51 EDT
Subject: LANGUAGE
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.214751.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Some time ago you indicated an interest in my back issues of LANGUAGE--a run
that goes back into the 1960s. Are you still interested?


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Mon Jun 12 01:51:53 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 21:51:53 -0400
Subject: LANGUAGE
In-Reply-To: <96.602a9b7.26759b47@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.215153.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 11 Jun 2000 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

>Some time ago you indicated an interest in my back issues of LANGUAGE--a run
>that goes back into the 1960s. Are you still interested?

Yes, Ron, I am. My notes are in my office - I can send you some details
tomorrow.

Thanks,
Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 12 03:18:41 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 23:18:41 EDT
Subject: Throwaway Fashion
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.231841.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the NEW YORK POST, 11 June 2000, pg. 42, col. 1:

_Throwaway Fashion_
_Clothes become disposable_
_thanks to supercheap designs_
By FARRAH WEINSTEIN
   Why drop tons of dollars on designer duds that are destined to be dumped in the trash in a matter of months anyway?
   The latest--and least expensive--clothing trend is throwaway fashion: sexy styles that cost so little, women have no problem tossing them after they've been worn just once.
   Of course, this new fad wouldn't have been possible without the launch of bargain stores like Midtown's H&M and the just-opened Madison, at 290 Madison Avenue.
   At both stores, shoppers can get the looks of Sarah Jessica Parker or Nicole Kidman for a tenth of what the stars pay.

   A Net check shows other throwaways:

Throwaway Society; Throwaway Generation; Throwaway People; Throwaway Kids; Throwaway Teens; Throwaway Dads; Throwaway Fathers; Throwaway Wives; Throwaway Babies; Throwaway Friends; Throwaway Pets; Throwaway PCs; Throwaway Software; Throwaway Chips

(After reading this post, please throwaway properly.)


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Mon Jun 12 06:58:10 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 02:58:10 -0400
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.025810.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter A. McGraw <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Friday, June 09, 2000 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)


>During my years in New York I don't recall hearing anyone call the city
>subway system "the tube," but I did learn that what is today the PATH
>system connecting NYC and New Jersey used to be called "The Hudson Tubes."
>I don't know whether this system was referred to colloquially as "the
>tube," or "the tubes," at that time.


I can second this...while I recognized the lines in question from the
description, I've never heard them called anything but the PATH trains in
the last ten years. Of course, I don't live in the area on the New Jersey
where some old-timers might use "Hudson Tubes", but that name is not in
current usage.

bkd


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Mon Jun 12 07:09:14 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 03:09:14 -0400
Subject: Lexicographer's dilemma
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.030914.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: GEORGE THOMPSON <thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Friday, June 09, 2000 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: Lexicographer's dilemma


>When the meaningful elements of a saying vary in this way, what does
>a lexicographer do?  How can it be entered in a dictionary so that it
>will be found?  About 8 years ago American Speech published a note
>from me giving late 19th century occurences of similar variable
>expressions:  "Your money [dough] is no good [doesn't go] in this
>joint [town, up here]", expressing the idea that that the speaker
>will pay for everything, and "I can do that standing on my head
>[hands]", expressing disdain for a term of imprisonment.


At some point we may get the "what is that phrase/word I'm looking for?"
dictionary....

Something that you can ask a nice open-ended question like..."what's that
British phrase, about everything being safe...?" and it'll return a whole
bucketload of British phrases that fit, no matter how tangentially.

How would this have to work? There would have to be a large degree of
natural language processing, to break it down to components, after which a
thesaurus search/list generation would begin. Geography and age would serve
as search modifiers. Following the synonym list generation, a straight
search will return all potentially matching phrases. If we're very lucky,
the machines get fast enough that the intermediate steps seem to vanish.
Unless of course the internal phrase list+thesaurus grows faster than
processing power...

See, it's really just an engineering problem...<G>

Shortly after that dictionary is created, expect the mythical DWIM (Do What
I Mean) key to be created...8-)

bkd


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Mon Jun 12 13:05:03 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:05:03 -0400
Subject: Permafudgies; Rainfill
In-Reply-To: <v04011702b569841f7137@[130.132.245.160]>
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.090503.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 11 Jun 2000, Laurence Horn wrote:

> 1)  I was wondering how wide the domain of 'fudgies' was (i.e. whether it
> was specifically a Youper (Upper Peninsula) expression)...

I'm from the Flint area, and I've never heard it, if you're trying to
establish a southern boundary. Ask people from Clare or Grayling, although
I doubt they'd have it. It makes sense that Lelanau County would have it
though, I'd bet the other LP county bordering the Straits
(Emmet? Charlevoix? I forget) would have it too. For what it's worth.


--- Steve K.


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 12 14:26:42 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 07:26:42 -0700
Subject: Throwaway Fashion
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.072642.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    From the NEW YORK POST, 11 June 2000, pg. 42,
> col. 1:
>
> _Throwaway Fashion_
> _Clothes become disposable_
> _thanks to supercheap designs_
> By FARRAH WEINSTEIN
>    Why drop tons of dollars on designer duds that
> are destined to be dumped in the trash in a matter
> of months anyway?
>    The latest--and least expensive--clothing trend
> is throwaway fashion: sexy styles that cost so
> little, ....

Has "sexy" become the new "nice", "cute", "swell",
etc.??  Last year Subway sold a sexy sandwich, and
Wendy's is now selling a sexy salad!  Is "sexy" the
most overused (and misused) word of the past decade?



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Jun 12 16:00:19 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:00:19 -0400
Subject: portmanteau words (lexical blending)
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.120019.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's a question that you might find interesting, from LINGUIST List #11-1309.
ADS-L'ers, please respond to the questioner, not to me; my bcc list, I'd enjoy
any reaction you may have.

-- Mark

     =======================================

Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:16:12 +0200
From: Suzanne Kemmer <kemmer at eva.mpg.de>
Subject: How old is lexical blending?

Does anybody know how old lexical blending is in English?
Besides the Lewis Carroll examples like _slithy_ and _chortle_,
which date from 1872, I have found one blend in George Eliot's Middlemarch
(_Corregiosity_) and then the next oldest I have are citations
in reference works : 1896 (_brunch_ ) and 1905 (_smog_).

Has anybody collected any earlier lexical blends? I would have
thought Dickens might have created some but of course it's difficult to
search until you know a specific example.  Shakespeare would
be another likely creator of blend neologisms.
(anybody know a Shakespeare list I can post this query to?).

Thanks for help.
Suzanne Kemmer


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Jun 12 17:25:04 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:25:04 -0700
Subject: From Soup to Nuts
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.102504.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>   From soup to nuts.

I used this expression the other day and my English husband had no idea what I
was talking about.  Apparently this has not crossed the pond.  I then asked him
if he had heard "from top to toe" and the answer was no.  Of course, those two
expressions are not the same.  In fact, I think "from stem to stern" is closer
to "from top to toe" than to "from soup to nuts", and I see the former two being
a more physical reference.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 12 17:24:37 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:24:37 -0400
Subject: portmanteau words (lexical blending)
In-Reply-To: <852568FC.0057DB59.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.132437.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 12 Jun 2000 Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:

> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:16:12 +0200
> From: Suzanne Kemmer <kemmer at eva.mpg.de>
> Subject: How old is lexical blending?
>
> Does anybody know how old lexical blending is in English?
> Besides the Lewis Carroll examples like _slithy_ and _chortle_,
> which date from 1872, I have found one blend in George Eliot's Middlemarch
> (_Corregiosity_) and then the next oldest I have are citations
> in reference works : 1896 (_brunch_ ) and 1905 (_smog_).

Answering this question is a great use of the OED Online.  A search there
reveals such pre-Lewis Carroll coinages as Nobodaddy (William Blake,
c1793, nobody + daddy) and snivelization (Herman Melville, 1849, snivel +
civilization).  The oldest blends noted by the OED appear to be drubly
(a1340, trobly + drof), paithment (c1375, pavement + paith), wlappe
(c1380, lappe + wrap), withweeed (1567, withwind + birdweed), womanlish
(1579, womanish + womanly), and scraze (1703, scratch + graze).


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Jun 12 17:55:01 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:55:01 -0700
Subject: Chimichangas/Chimichongas (continued)
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.105501.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I distinctly remember a Tex-Mex restaurant in Houston advertising chimichangas
on the radio circa 1976-7.  The timing is accurate in that my sister was still
in high school, and was either a junior or a senior, and she graduated in 1977.
I'm trying to remember the restaurant; I can hear the commercial, but not the
restaurant name.  It might have been Pappasito's ([sp] there are several
restaurants in town owned by the Pappas family, and sometimes they have 2 p's,
sometimes one) or Ninfa's.
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Child" by Aardman Animation


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Jun 12 18:28:49 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:28:49 -0700
Subject: Abuzz.com censorship!
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.112849.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

You're a lawyer - why don't you sue the Times, Abuzz, and others who are
plagiarizing your work?  Once you make 'em hurt, they won't do it again.

Meanwhile the 'www.thebigapple.net' domain is for sale.  Buy it and publish the
truth.  Or better yet, put your info on http://www.snopes.com/ and
http://www.urbanlegends.com/ which are recognized urban legend debunking sites.

Andrea
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Child" by Aardman Animation


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Jun 12 19:06:34 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:06:34 -0400
Subject: new word alert
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.150634.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(Damn, that's weird...)

My 23-year-old daughter and I were working with my laptop computer, which has in
lieu of a mouse one of those things that look like a pencil eraser between the G
and H keys. I called it an "eraserhead". She says that none of her friends call
it anything but a "clitmouse". !!!

What's weird is that I found myself very reluctant to put that wonderful word in
the subject line, even though I have no problem discussing it in the message.
Oh, oh, old fogeyhood is catching up with me.

-- Mark

     Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist & Manager of Acoustic Data
          Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc.
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
                    (speaking only for myself)


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Mon Jun 12 15:12:44 2000
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:12:44 -0400
Subject: Permafudgies; Rainfill
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.111244.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My recollection is that "fudgies" was originally used on Mackinac
Island, MI, the location of several fudge specialty shops, to refer to
visitors to the Island. I don't know how far beyond the Island the word
is now used.

Bob

"Steve K." wrote:
>
> On Sun, 11 Jun 2000, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> > 1)  I was wondering how wide the domain of 'fudgies' was (i.e. whether it
> > was specifically a Youper (Upper Peninsula) expression)...
>
> I'm from the Flint area, and I've never heard it, if you're trying to
> establish a southern boundary. Ask people from Clare or Grayling, although
> I doubt they'd have it. It makes sense that Lelanau County would have it
> though, I'd bet the other LP county bordering the Straits
> (Emmet? Charlevoix? I forget) would have it too. For what it's worth.
>
> --- Steve K.


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Jun 12 19:40:26 2000
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:40:26 -0400
Subject: new word alert
In-Reply-To: <852568FC.0068E8EE.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.154026.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Clit mouse" has been around for years. It was submitted to the Jargon Watch
column in Nov. '96 by someone at Stanford.

I never brought myself to submit it to Wired at the time*, but have used it
ever since and have heard it frequently used by others.


---------------------------
Gareth Branwyn
Jargon Watch Editor
Wired

* My editor at the time was a very politically correct sort who never wanted
to publish anything that might be construed as sexist. I submitted another
term around this time, AssGrabber, which I really wanted to use. AOL had
just released a program called FileGrabber which allowed you to assemble
multi-part newsgroup image files at the touch of a button. Since the only
real purpose of this utility was assembling porno, the name nearly instantly
became AssGrabber. This was a time when AOL was proclaiming how "family
friendly" it was, so I found this tech (and the resultant slang) particular
interesting (again, since there was little other use for it, which AOL was
surely aware of). I also found it interesting that my editor thought the
term was sexist. There was (and still is) a huge gay porn presence online,
so I don't know why he assumed the gender of the ass being grabbed. He was
not the editor of the Jargon Watch book, so I was able to use this term and
several others that he had censored.

> From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:06:34 -0400
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: new word alert
>
> (Damn, that's weird...)
>
> My 23-year-old daughter and I were working with my laptop computer, which has
> in
> lieu of a mouse one of those things that look like a pencil eraser between the
> G
> and H keys. I called it an "eraserhead". She says that none of her friends
> call
> it anything but a "clitmouse". !!!
>
> What's weird is that I found myself very reluctant to put that wonderful word
> in
> the subject line, even though I have no problem discussing it in the message.
> Oh, oh, old fogeyhood is catching up with me.
>
> -- Mark
>
> Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist & Manager of Acoustic Data
> Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc.
> 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
> (speaking only for myself)
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 12 20:09:06 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:09:06 -0400
Subject: new word alert
In-Reply-To: <B56AB4E9.4BD%garethb2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.160906.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gareth Branwyn writes:
>"Clit mouse" has been around for years. It was submitted to the Jargon Watch
>column in Nov. '96 by someone at Stanford.
>
>I never brought myself to submit it to Wired at the time, but have used it
>ever since and have heard it frequently used by others.
>
>
Right--when I tried searching google.com for 'clitmouse' I came up empty,
but there were a number of cites of 'clit-mouse', 'clit mouse', and even
one for 'mouse clit' on various techie-type sites.  Here's an example
(supply your own [sic]s):

My primary machine is a Tosh laptop, which is equipped with a nifty[0]
little strain guage based mouse-replacement device called an
accupoint.
This little gizmo nestles in between the 'G', 'H' & 'B' keys, & is
known in the trade as a nipple mouse, for reasons that are very
obvious if you've ever seen one in use.
One of my cow-orkers surprised the hell out of me by coming up with an
even more offensive name, when he described it to one of our youngish,
catholic & female staff members as a 'clit-mouse'.

larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 12 23:02:01 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:02:01 EDT
Subject: "Gyro" at Chicago's Parthenon Restaurant
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.190201.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The Chicago Tribune did a series on the city's top ten restaurants, by type.  The top Greek restaurant was Parthenon.  From the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, 27 May 1971, section 2, pg. 19:

_This Parthenon, Too, Is Classic Greek_
  (...)(Col. 2--ed.) Next came _gyros_ ($1.95 a plate), unusual, intriguing and thoroly (sic) Greek.  It consists of layers of specially spiced lamb and beef, barbecued vertically on equipment imported from Greece, which is set up in the window at the front of the restaurant.
  (...)(Photo caption, col. 6--ed.)
  Bill Liakouras slices a dishful of gyros, vertically barbecued layers of spiced lamb and beef.

  The OED has the NEW YORK TIMES, 4 September 1971.
  The Chicago Tribune Magazine ran nice pieces on Chicago delis, Chicago pizza, and Chicago hot dogs.  I think I'll see a piece on the gyro if I read through another year or two, through about 1974.
  It'll have to wait--I leave for Pittsburgh after work tomorrow.
  Attached is another question for me to answer (no message in the body of the question!) from Abuzz.  It never ends!
-------------- next part --------------
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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 12 23:28:31 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:28:31 EDT
Subject: Menudo & Gorditos
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.192831.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Jesse asked me if I have a "menudo" before 1964.

   From RAMONA'S SPANISH-MEXICAN COOKERY: THE FIRST COMPLETE AND AUTHENTIC SPANISH-MEXICAN COOK BOOK IN ENGLISH (Los Angeles, 1929):

Pg. 84: _Gorditos_ (Taco Bell owes me!--ed.)
4 cups tortilla dough (masa)
1/2 cup green chile sauce (see sauces)
1/2 lib. sliced goat cheese
3 avocadoes, peeled and sliced
Salt and pepper to taste.
Pg. 85:  Divide the dough in 6 equal parts, form a round cake 1/2 inch thick and cook slowly on medium hot griddle, turning frequently, when well done split open and fill with cheese, chile sauce and avocado, salt and pepper to taste.
   This recipe will recall to many tourists the fond recollections of their visit to Santa Nita or Xochimilco where they were blessed with plenty of these delicious sandwiches, served with a generous gourde of pulque and music, as their flower laden boats drifted along the canals of the floating gardens near Old Mexico City.

Pg. 90:  _Tripe a la Mexicana--Menudo_
3 lbs. fresh tripe
4 cups cooking sauce (see sauces)
1 tblsp. chile powder
1 tblsp. almond meal
Salt and pepper to taste.
   Cut tripe in 2 inch squares, place to a slow boil in sufficient stock or water to cover well.  When near done add the cooking sauce, almond meal and chile powder, steam until well done.  Serve with tortillas.
   When using cooking sauce recipe in preparing tripe, chile powder may be used to taste and the almond meal can also be omitted.

--------------------------------------------------------
MEXICAN COOKBOOK
FOR QUANTITY SERVICE:
AUTHENTIC PROFESSIONAL RECIPES
By Caleva
(New York, 1958)

Pg. 40: _TRIPE SOUP, JALAPA STYLE_
(Menudo, Jalapenos)
25 Servings
   INGREDIENTS
Calf Feet (cleaned)...4 lbs.
Water (boiling)...3 gal.
Tripe (washed and chopped)...8 lbs.
Hominy...2 lbs.
Onions (chopped)...1 lb.
Garlic (chopped).. 4 cl.
Oregano...1 tbs.
Coriander...2 tsp.
Salt..1 tsp.
Pepper...1/2 tsp.
1. Place calves feet in boiling water and cool one hour.
2. Add tripe, hominy, onions, garlic; tie oregano, coriander, salt and pepper in spice bag, then add, bring to a boil and simmer six hours; remove and serve hot, garnish with mint leaf and chopped green onions.

--------------------------------------------------------
COOKING SOUTH OF THE RIO GRANDE
by George Luther Nelson
(San Antonio, 1935)

   This book also had "menudo."  However, the book had to be specially copied, and I'll pick them up next week.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 12 23:59:40 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:59:40 EDT
Subject: Tostada & Salsa
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.195940.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  In that previous posting, it should be mentioned that the RAMONA'S book cover shows Ramona's home--Camulos Ranch, California.  The 1929 book was "edited and modernized by Pauline Wiley-Kleemann."

--------------------------------------------------------
TOSTADA

  The OED's first citation of "burrito" is E. Fergusson, MEXICAN COOKBOOK (1934).  The OED's first citation of "tostados" is E. Fergusson, MEXICAN COOKBOOK (2nd edition, 1945).  "Tostada" is not in the first edition?
  "Tostada," "quesadilla," and "menudo" (I think) are all in that COOKING SOUTH OF THE RIO GRANDE (1935) by George Luther Nelson.  I requested copies because I didn't have time to write it all down.

  From GEBHARDT'S MEXICAN COOKERY FOR AMERICAN HOMES (San Antonio, 1935):

Pg. 11:  _TORTILLAS TOSTADAS_
(Toasted Tortillas)
Cur Tortillas (Mexican Style) into pieces one inch square or smaller and fry in deep fat (390 degrees F.) until a delicate brown in color.  Drain on absorbent paper; sprinkle with salt.

Pg. 31:  _CREMA TOSTADA DE MAIZ Y CHILI_
(Corn and Chili Custard)
No. 1 can Gebhardt's Chili con Carne
1 1/2 c. corn
1 c. milk
2 eggs, beaten
1 t. salt
1 c. soft bread crumbs
Mix ingredients and turn into a well greased casserole.  Place casserole in a pan of warm water and bake in a moderate oven (350 degrees F.) about 30 minutes or until custard sets.

Pg. 36:  _Salsas_
(Salad Dressings and Sauces) (...)
SALSA DE CHILI (Chili Sauce) (...)
Pg. 37:  POLLO EN PARRILLAS CON SALSA BARBACOA (Broiled Chicken with Barbecue Sauce) (...)
SALSA DE BARACOA (BARBECUE SAUCE I & II) (...)
Pg. 38:  SALSA A LA MEXICANA PARA PESCADO (Mexican Sauce for Fish) (...)
SALSA ENDIABLADA (Deviled Sauce) (...)
SALSA COCKTAIL PARA PESCADO (Sea Food Cocktail Sauce) (...)
Pg. 39:  SALSA FRANCESA (French Dressing) (...)
SALSA DE GEBHARDT PARA ENSALADA (Gebhardt's Salad Dressing) (...)
SALSA DE ENSALADA COCIDA (Cooked Salad Dressing)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 13 00:17:54 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:17:54 EDT
Subject: French Dip Sandwich; Biscotti
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.201754.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Two foods from GOURMET magazine that aren't in the online OED at all.

--------------------------------------------------------
FRENCH DIP SANDWICH

   From GOURMET, April 1951, pg. 71, col. 1:

Q.  I would like so much to know how to make French dip sandwiches.  Could you help me find a recipe?
MRS. W. H. NECESSARY (The guys nicknamed her "by any means"--ed.)
SHERMAN OAKS, CALIFORNIA
A.  We have a simple passion for unusual names, so may we add yours to our collection, in exchange for this recipe to add to yours?
   _French Dip Sandwiches_
   This is a long French roll heated until it is crisp and filled with slices of Swiss cheese, slightly melted, and slices of beef or lamb which have been dipped in a very peppery barbecue sauce.  One half of the filled roll is then dipped in the barbecue sauce.  The undipped half of the roll is used as a handle.

--------------------------------------------------------
BISCOTTI (continued)

   An earlier citation than I gave before is GOURMET, July 1951, pg. 54, col. 3:

Q.  I have in mind a sweet Italian rusk, flavored with anise...
MISS MARY OSADNICK
CHICAGO, ILLINOIS
(Pg. 55, col. 1--ed.)
A.  To enjoy _biscotti all'anaci_ properly, you should dunk them, neatly but thoroughly, in hot coffee.
   _Biscotti All' Anaci_
   _(Anise Biscuits)_
   Beat 2 eggs with 5/8 cup sugar until the mixture is thick and pale in color.  Fold in gently but thoroughly 1 1/4 cups sifted flour and 1 teaspoon anise seeds.
   Bake in a buttered and floured loaf pan, 4 inches wide, in a moderate oven (375 degrees F.) for about 20 minutes, or until done.
   Remove the cake from the pan and cut it into 1-inch slices.  Place the slices on a buttered baking sheet and bake them for 5 minutes, or until brown on one side.  Turn the slices over and bake for another 5 minutes.  This makes 20 biscotti.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 13 00:38:08 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:38:08 EDT
Subject: Son-of-a-Gun stew
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.203808.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   One more Son-of-a-Bitch before I prepare to get outta here.  Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK has this, but with no date.  I haven't yet checked the MOA databases.
   From GOURMET, "Saddle Seasoning: Cooking on the Texas Range," June 1942, pg. 7, col. 1:

   Dinner will be, basically, son-of-a-gun (col. 2--ed.), sourdough biscuits, cowboy beans, and calf fries.
   The proper name for son-of-a-gun is son-of-a-bitch, but for the benefit of the cowboys, who are averse to saying such things in the presence of ladies, it is commonly called son-of-a-gun.  It is an unbelievably delicious concoction invented by some long-forgotten chuck wagon cook.  Nobody knows the correct proportions of the various ingredients except the cook who is about to prepare it, and he doesn't know how much of what he has used when he gets it in the pot.  The utensils necessary to prepare the dish are an iron or an enamel kettle, a butcher knife, and a long-handled iron spoon.    The ingredients which, except for (col. 3--ed.) the salt and pepper, are all taken from a freshly killed beef, are as follows: marrow gut, cut in not more than quarter-inch lengths, diced lean meat, kidney fat, brains, sweetbreads, and finely chopped kidney, all of which are placed in the cooking vessel with a small quantity of water increased as required throughout the cooking process, an!
d are then allowed to cook for not less than 12 hours.  Some cooks add a dash of sage, and others, chili; but the old chuck wagon cook sticks to salt and pepper and says, "all them things is sissy."  The natural complement for son-of-a-gun is cowboy beans, which are pinto beans boiled with "anything handy chunked in."  (...) Chili powder may be added to advantage, along with the must-be onions, garlic, and suet.

   McDonald's should add this.  There's nothing like going in the drive-thru and saying "Son-of-a-bitch!" to a clown.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 13 00:53:39 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:53:39 -0400
Subject: Menudo & Gorditos
In-Reply-To: <7b.54e7c22.2676cc1f@aol.com> from "Bapopik@AOL.COM" at Jun 12,
 2000 07:28:31 PM
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.205339.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>    Jesse asked me if I have a "menudo" before 1964.

Barry, you da man.

JTS


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Jun 13 00:56:38 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:56:38 -0400
Subject: new word alert
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.205638.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

clit mouse, clit-mouse, and clitmouse were not found in Nexis (the full
service version) this evening.

Regards,
David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 13 05:53:25 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 01:53:25 -0400
Subject: Hyper Twister
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.015325.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    From the NEW YORK POST, travel section, 13 June 2000, pg. 42, col. 1:

_Riding Goliath_
_A brand new giant roller coaster opens in the Golden State_
   (...)  This year's entry from Six Flags Magic Mountain in Valencia, Calif., just north of L.A., is Goliath, a giant "hyper twister" style of coaster.
   (...) For more info: www.sixflags.com/magicmountain

   One web site lists several different types of coasters:  steel wild mouse, wooden (includes twisters), steel twisters, hyper coaster (higher than 200 feet), inverted, suspended, floorless, stand up, launched.
   The first "hyper twister" was Raging Bull, which opened at a Six Flags Great America in Illinois last year (1999).  And you thought the first "hyper twister" was Chubby Checker.
   From http://members.xoom.com/coasterlover/sfgam/rb/index.html:

   Raging Bull is Great America's 9th roller coaster.  It is the first of its kind in America--a _Hyper Twister_.  Let me explain these terms.  A _hyper coaster_ is a roller coaster that exceeds 200 ft. in height, and a _twister_ is a coaster that twists around itself again and again.  There are a lot of drops and a lot of turns.  The other type of coaster is an _Out and Back_, which does basically what it says.  It travels out to one spot and then travels back to the station.


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Tue Jun 13 08:50:46 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 04:50:46 -0400
Subject: new word alert
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.045046.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: new word alert


>Gareth Branwyn writes:
>>"Clit mouse" has been around for years. It was submitted to the Jargon
Watch
>>column in Nov. '96 by someone at Stanford.
>>
>>I never brought myself to submit it to Wired at the time, but have used it
>>ever since and have heard it frequently used by others.
>>
>>
>Right--when I tried searching google.com for 'clitmouse' I came up empty,
>but there were a number of cites of 'clit-mouse', 'clit mouse', and even
>one for 'mouse clit' on various techie-type sites.  Here's an example
>(supply your own [sic]s):


And for anatomical completeness, here's an entry from the Jargon File:

tits on a keyboard n.

Small bumps on certain keycaps to keep touch-typists registered. Usually on
the 5 of a numeric keypad, and on the F and J of a QWERTY keyboard; but
older Macs, perverse as usual, had them on the D and K keys (this changed in
1999).
---------------------

Is this gynomorphizing?

bkd


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Tue Jun 13 12:12:53 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:12:53 -0400
Subject: new word alert
In-Reply-To: <005001bfd514$7759f6b0$8a70cec0@qwe.graphnet.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.081253.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Bruce Dykes wrote:

> Small bumps on certain keycaps to keep touch-typists registered. Usually on
> the 5 of a numeric keypad, and on the F and J of a QWERTY keyboard; but
> older Macs, perverse as usual, had them on the D and K keys (this changed in
> 1999).

Hmmm. My Toshiba keyboard doesn't have dots, but rather en-dashes, on the
bottom of my F and J keys.... I wonder what those are called...

--- Steve K.


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Tue Jun 13 12:26:24 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:26:24 -0400
Subject: new word alert
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.082624.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

And now I have to wonder...if you have a clitmouse that's part of a
buch...is it a clustered clitmouse?

ducking and running
Bruce


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Tue Jun 13 01:43:15 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:43:15 -0500
Subject: "Gyro" at Chicago's Parthenon Restaurant
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.204315.0500.>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>    The Chicago Tribune did a series on the city's top ten restaurants, by > type.  The top Greek restaurant was Parthenon.  From the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, 27 > May 1971, section 2, pg. 19:
>
> _This Parthenon, Too, Is Classic Greek_
>   (...)(Col. 2--ed.) Next came _gyros_ ($1.95 a plate), unusual, intriguing > and thoroly (sic) Greek.

Hi, Barry!

Chicagoans (at least us old, old Chicagoans) wouldn't think of (sic)ing
that odd spelling.

Oh, we'd recognize that it's odd.  But we'd probably react more or less
as suggested in an old Quaker saying:  "Thee should not be upset when
thee steps in dog-doo.  Consider the source from which it comes."

Well, I first heard that from an old Quaker; you're reading it now from
another. For me, that indisputably makes it an old Quaker saying.

"Colonel" Robert McCormick, the long-time owner of the Chicago Tribune,
was a dedicated supporter of a program of spelling reform that came out
of his own little head.  "Thoroly" is of a piece with many of his
creations.  As owner of what he insisted on advertising as "The World's
Greatest Newspaper", he would amend the Trib's style book whenever the
whim hit him.  His "reformed" spellings aren't the only examples of his
idiosyncrasies that survive him at the Trib, but they surely are, quite
literally, the most visible.

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!

P.S.:  Your TV cable system probably has another example, if it brings
in "superstation" WGN-TV.  The call letters "WGN" were Col. McCormick's
way of advertising the Tribune on the radio station he also owned.

"WGN" got its name as an abbreviation of "World's Greatest Newspaper".

If you ever run out of things to do, it might be fun to find the sources
of other radio and TV call letters.  The Chicago Tribune wasn't the only
newspaper to shape the call letters of an associated radio station.
There's WTMJ, for "The Milwaukee Journal", for example. (Since U.S.
stations generally begin with either "W" or "K", the first letter
sometimes isn't a signifier. Viz: KQED.)


From pkh at OFFTHEPAGE.COM  Tue Jun 13 14:26:59 2000
From: pkh at OFFTHEPAGE.COM (Paul Harm)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:26:59 -0400
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10006091743001.14347-100000@larry.cas.utk.ed u>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.102659.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 05:44 PM 6/9/00 -0400, you wrote:
>On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>
> >Have Londoners taken to calling the Underground "the tube"
> >indiscriminately?
>
>I lived in London 1970-71, and I don't recall its ever being called
>anything else - then or since.
>
>Bethany

I asked two friends from England,  both in their twenties, one from
Cambridge and one from London, about their use of "tube."

Both used "tube" to refer to the London subway in all cases, even in those
places where it runs above-ground.

The woman from Cambridge said that she has heard English people her age use
"tube" as a generic term for "subway," even in reference to underground
rail lines other than that found in London.  But, apparently, if the
location of the line is known, then the local name of the particular system
("metro" in Paris, "subway" in New York, and so on) is used.

The man from London did not remember ever hearing this generic usage.

They also volunteered contrary explanations of the term.  The man from
London claimed that it was called so because of the shape of the train, not
the tunnel, while the woman claimed it was from the shape of the tunnel,
not the train.

Paul

--
Paul Harm
Web Developer, Off the Page Productions
+1.412.488.9801.x16


From vneufeldt at M-W.COM  Tue Jun 13 15:14:28 2000
From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:14:28 -0400
Subject: "Gyro" at Chicago's Parthenon Restaurant
In-Reply-To: <394591B3.289B23BD@corn.cso.niu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.111428.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What a terrific story.  (Two, actually.  I had no idea about this origin of
call letters.  I suppose many radio stations were originally owned by
newspapers.)

Did anyone ever write McCormick's biography?  Or did he write his memoirs?
Either would probably be interesting reading.

Victoria
Merriam-Webster, Inc. P.O. Box 281
Springfield, MA 01102
Tel: 413-734-3134  ext 124
Fax: 413-827-7262

On Monday, June 12, Mike Salovesh wrote:
> >
> >    The Chicago Tribune did a series on the city's top ten
> restaurants, by > type.  The top Greek restaurant was Parthenon.
> From the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, 27 > May 1971, section 2, pg. 19:
>
> "Colonel" Robert McCormick, the long-time owner of the Chicago Tribune,
> was a dedicated supporter of a program of spelling reform that came out
> of his own little head.  "Thoroly" is of a piece with many of his
> creations.  As owner of what he insisted on advertising as "The World's
> Greatest Newspaper", he would amend the Trib's style book whenever the
> whim hit him.  His "reformed" spellings aren't the only examples of his
> idiosyncrasies that survive him at the Trib, but they surely are, quite
> literally, the most visible.
>
> -- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
> PEACE !!!
>
> P.S.:  Your TV cable system probably has another example, if it brings
> in "superstation" WGN-TV.  The call letters "WGN" were Col. McCormick's
> way of advertising the Tribune on the radio station he also owned.
>
> "WGN" got its name as an abbreviation of "World's Greatest Newspaper".
>
> If you ever run out of things to do, it might be fun to find the sources
> of other radio and TV call letters.  The Chicago Tribune wasn't the only
> newspaper to shape the call letters of an associated radio station.
> There's WTMJ, for "The Milwaukee Journal", for example. (Since U.S.
> stations generally begin with either "W" or "K", the first letter
> sometimes isn't a signifier. Viz: KQED.)
>


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun 13 16:58:56 2000
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:58:56 -0700
Subject: "Coffee, tea or me?"
In-Reply-To: <a7.4a42d3b.26748aaa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.095856.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A book by this title is listed in the bibliography of a dissertation
written at the Handelshochschule St. Gallen by Dr. Hanspeter Danuser, now
the Director of Tourism for St. Moritz (Switzerland). His thesis had a
title something like "Zur Ausbildung und zum Berufsbild der
Swissair-Hostess." This is as likely as a book so titled is likely to
climb on the academy's pop charts, I ween.

Peter Richardson

On Sun, 11 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>     "Coffee, tea or me" is not in any of the phrase books that I just went through.  Maybe Fred Shapiro will include it?
>     I'll do a larger "coffee" posting eventually.  It's ninety degrees out--I need a nice cup of hot java.
>     From TRUE (humor page), October 1965, pg. 140, col. 2:


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Jun 13 17:45:15 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:45:15 -0700
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.104515.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<agitated state>

OK, There's an Irish guy on one of the lists who has got my dander up.  He is
insisting that it is wrong to leave off the accents on words in Am. English.  I
and another fellow (US folk) say baloney, in Am. English most people don't learn
accents, nor do they write them.  I think I've brought this to this list before,
but in case the idiot wants some sort of authoritative backup, I ask:

Would any of you mark a word wrong which lacks the accents that it had in its
originating language, e.g. resume, cafe, fiance?

Would you think that the word is missing its accents and is therefore harder to
understand?

If you saw the word "resumé" (the last letter is 'e' with an acute accent) would
you think, hey, it's missing the other accent?

Do any of you care?  Is it anyone's pet peeve?

Are any of you in touch with K-12 folks?  If so, could you ask them if they
teach accent writing?

To this day I don't feel comfortable writing a cedilla.

</agitated state>

Many thanks for your answers.
Andrea
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Child" by Aardman Animation


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Jun 13 19:31:17 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:31:17 +0100
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.203117.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Andrea asks:

> Would any of you mark a word wrong which lacks the accents that it had in its
> originating language, e.g. resume, cafe, fiance?

yes, yes, yes.

>
> Would you think that the word is missing its accents and is therefore harder to
> understand?

yes, particularly on 'resume'

> If you saw the word "resumÈ" (the last letter is 'e' with an acute accent) would
> you think, hey, it's missing the other accent?

probably not.

> Do any of you care?  Is it anyone's pet peeve?

it's not my pet peeve, but i care.

prescriptively,
lynne


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Tue Jun 13 19:38:47 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:38:47 -0700
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <3946732B.AD760B60@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.123847.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think the alcohol sake should either have an accent or be put in italics
because it is so easy to mistake for sake. Of course in Japanese, there is
no accent.

Also, Canada (college name in California) should get a tilde so people know
not to pronounce it like the country. I would definitely think these two
words seemed strange without the marks.

Having the second accent but not the first in resume is an error I've been
guilty of. I try to put on both or neither, but I don't consider only one to
be out in left field because both seems pretentious. (Sorry, it does!)

Other than that, I think accents are optional. Of course, I'm a writer
(translator), not a teacher.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On
>
>Would any of you mark a word wrong which lacks the accents that it
>had in its
>originating language, e.g. resume, cafe, fiance?
>
>Would you think that the word is missing its accents and is
>therefore harder to
>understand?
>
>If you saw the word "resumé" (the last letter is 'e' with an acute
>accent) would
>you think, hey, it's missing the other accent?
>
>Do any of you care?  Is it anyone's pet peeve?
>
>Are any of you in touch with K-12 folks?  If so, could you ask them if they
>teach accent writing?
>
></agitated state>
>
>Many thanks for your answers.
>Andrea


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 13 19:42:21 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:42:21 -0700
Subject: "Coffee, tea or me?"
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.124221.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I recall that "Coffee, tea or me?" was the title of a
novel in the late 60's or early 70's.  A movie with
the same title was based on the book.


--- Peter Richardson <prichard at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:
> A book by this title is listed in the bibliography
> of a dissertation
> written at the Handelshochschule St. Gallen by Dr.
> Hanspeter Danuser, now
> the Director of Tourism for St. Moritz
> (Switzerland). His thesis had a
> title something like "Zur Ausbildung und zum
> Berufsbild der
> Swissair-Hostess." This is as likely as a book so
> titled is likely to
> climb on the academy's pop charts, I ween.
>
> Peter Richardson
>
> On Sun, 11 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> >     "Coffee, tea or me" is not in any of the
> phrase books that I just went through.  Maybe Fred
> Shapiro will include it?
> >     I'll do a larger "coffee" posting eventually.
> It's ninety degrees out--I need a nice cup of hot
> java.
> >     From TRUE (humor page), October 1965, pg. 140,
> col. 2:



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com


From jlyons at NETMARKETGROUP.COM  Tue Jun 13 19:46:48 2000
From: jlyons at NETMARKETGROUP.COM (Lyons, Jennifer M)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:46:48 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.154648.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, it's a pet peeve, although that's wearing off.  Most people don't know
how to type accents on their computer, and so, more often than not, the
words go without.  However, if someone's handwriting a word with accents and
leaves them off, I still get a little annoyed.

More annoying, and more confusing, is the fact that people don't know the
difference between fiance (see, I don't even know how to type the accents on
a Windows machine - I learned them all on the Mac, where I wrote several
years' worth of essays in French) and fiancee.

Jen

-----Original Message-----
From: A. Vine [mailto:avine at ENG.SUN.COM]

Would any of you mark a word wrong which lacks the accents that it had in
its
originating language, e.g. resume, cafe, fiance?

Would you think that the word is missing its accents and is therefore harder
to
understand?

If you saw the word "resumé" (the last letter is 'e' with an acute accent)
would
you think, hey, it's missing the other accent?

Do any of you care?  Is it anyone's pet peeve?


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun 13 19:56:31 2000
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:56:31 -0700
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <3946732B.AD760B60@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.125631.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Andrea's minor rant could have included _forte_, which we're now
society-bound to pronounce for-tay, but which (gee--I hope I'm right about
this!) comes from something more like _fort_. Not only do we have an
implied accent on the final vowel, but the final vowel shouldn't even be
there in the first place.

Maybe this will put Andrea's dander back down where it belongs; all things
in perspective, m'love.

Peter R.

On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, A. Vine wrote:

> <agitated state>
>
> OK, There's an Irish guy on one of the lists who has got my dander up.  He is
> insisting that it is wrong to leave off the accents on words in Am. English.  I
>
> To this day I don't feel comfortable writing a cedilla.
Time to eat lunch: soupc,on...


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun 13 20:00:25 2000
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:00:25 -0700
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLADGECHFGAAAKHDNEEFPEKAA.gogaku@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.130025.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
> Having the second accent but not the first in resume is an error I've been
> guilty of. I try to put on both or neither, but I don't consider only one to
> be out in left field because both seems pretentious. (Sorry, it does!)

Now let's call out the Latin police for all those job-seekers who send a
"curriculum vita." "I'll send you my vita," he said, "or my curriculum
vitae." But if you really want me to be pretentious, I'll send you my
vitam instead."

PR


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Jun 13 20:09:46 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:09:46 +0100
Subject: forte (was: Re: Accents in Am. English)
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.210946.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter R says:

> Andrea's minor rant could have included _forte_, which we're now
> society-bound to pronounce for-tay, but which (gee--I hope I'm right about
> this!) comes from something more like _fort_. Not only do we have an
> implied accent on the final vowel, but the final vowel shouldn't even be
> there in the first place.

I was first corrected on 'forte' (i.e., told to pronounce the 'e') when I lived in
South Africa.  I was told that you must pronounce the 'e' because it's from
Italian, not French--but they were wrong.  It's only the musical term that's from
Italian.  New Oxford has the pronuncation 'fort-ay' first, and AHD has it last, so
perhaps the American shift toward 'forte' is built on the assumption that the
British know best.  I have to say that my least favorite (what an odd expression)
English pronunciation is 'furore' (US furor)--pronounced something like few-rorry.

Incidentally, the American pronunciation that seems to annoy the English the most
is 'herb' without the 'h'.  At least two people here have (separately) expressed
their annoyance with this.  Probably because 'h'-less dialects are so downmarket
here.

Ta-ta,
Lynne


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Tue Jun 13 20:13:31 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:13:31 -0400
Subject: forte (was: Re: Accents in Am. English)
In-Reply-To: <E131wxy-0006To-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.161331.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Lynne Murphy wrote:

> New Oxford has the pronuncation 'fort-ay' first, and AHD has it last, so
> perhaps the American shift toward 'forte' is built on the assumption that the
> British know best.

A sneak preview of things to com: this order of pronunciations has
been switched for the 4th edition of the AHD, with 'for-tay' coming first
now.

A strong majority of our Usage Panel (74%) preferred the two-syllable
pronunciation, for what it's worth.

(We switched the 'status' prons, too, for the 4th, with STAT-us first and
STAY-tus second.)

--- Steve K.


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Tue Jun 13 22:21:27 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:21:27 -0500
Subject: "Coffee, tea or me?"
In-Reply-To: <20000613194221.19875.qmail@web1301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.172127.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James Smith says: "I recall that "Coffee, tea or me?" was the title
of a novel in the late 60's or early 70's.  A movie with
the same title was based on the book."

"Coffee Tea or Me" was the purported "uninhibited memoirs of two
airline stewardesses" published under the names Trudy Baker and
Rachel Jones, in NY by Bartholomew House in 1968.  It was evidently
popular, being translated into Spanish ("Cafe, te o yo?") and what I
believe to be Thai.  In English, it spawned three sequels: "The
Coffee, Tea or Me Girls Lay It on the Line"; "The CToM Girls Get Away
from It All"; and "The CToM Girls 'Round the World Diary".  All this
from RLIN.  I vaguely remember seeing one of these efforts on a
paperback rack at the time.

RLIN also shows a book called "Coffee, Tea or Me, Mei Shih ai ching"
published in Taipei a few years ago.  Trudy and Rachel aren't the
authors.

RLIN also shows Trudy Baker to be the author of a number of
elementary shool math texts, published in Canada, so perhaps she has
reformed, not that I necessarily think that one needs to reform from
being an uninhibited airline stewardess, nor that writing
mathematics texts would be a symptom of reformation.

GAT


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Jun 13 22:14:36 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:14:36 -0700
Subject: forte (was: Re: Accents in Am. English)
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.151436.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Steve K." wrote:
>
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Lynne Murphy wrote:
>
> > New Oxford has the pronuncation 'fort-ay' first, and AHD has it last, so
> > perhaps the American shift toward 'forte' is built on the assumption that the
> > British know best.
>
> A sneak preview of things to com: this order of pronunciations has
> been switched for the 4th edition of the AHD, with 'for-tay' coming first
> now.
>
> A strong majority of our Usage Panel (74%) preferred the two-syllable
> pronunciation, for what it's worth.
>
> (We switched the 'status' prons, too, for the 4th, with STAT-us first and
> STAY-tus second.)
>

Funny, Rob Kyff just had it in his column, and insisted that monosyllabic
"forte" was the human strength and bisyllabic "forte" the musical term.


From brewer at MAIL.TKU.EDU.TW  Wed Jun 14 00:23:16 2000
From: brewer at MAIL.TKU.EDU.TW (Warren Brewer)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:23:16 +0800
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.082316.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Benjamin Barrett wrote:

> Also, Canada (college name in California) should get a tilde so people know
> not to pronounce it like the country.

That reminds me of when I used to live in Los Angeles, and drove past a freeway
sign that read something like:

                            "LA CANADA HIGHWAY"

which I thought was the "Los Angeles to Canada Highway". Took a while to realize
it was "La Can~ada" (Sp. "the gully").

                                                    -----Warren Brewer.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 14 00:33:11 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:33:11 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <3946D074.32C1B96C@mail.tku.edu.tw>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.203311.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That's a purty good California story, but ours doesn't even involve a
tilde. My wife and I were driving behind a bus (up Telegraph Hill as I
recall), when the ad on the back of the bus (in all caps) which announced

USA CONDONES

attracted our attention.

Now, we are both fair to middlin' speakers of both Spanish and English, but
since the sign was all in caps and since we were not "plugged in" to
Spanish, we both wondered how a transitive verb could be used
intransitively. "The United States condones what," we wondered? A
millisecond later, we looked at each other, and, amazingly, (but we have
been married for a long time), started singing (to the tune of "De
Colores") "Usa condones' ("use condoms," for them of you who don't do
Spanish).

It's pert nigh my favorite bilingual story.

dInIs





>Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>
>> Also, Canada (college name in California) should get a tilde so people know
>> not to pronounce it like the country.
>
>That reminds me of when I used to live in Los Angeles, and drove past a
>freeway
>sign that read something like:
>
>                            "LA CANADA HIGHWAY"
>
>which I thought was the "Los Angeles to Canada Highway". Took a while to
>realize
>it was "La Can~ada" (Sp. "the gully").
>
>                                                    -----Warren Brewer.


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Jun 14 02:48:57 2000
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:48:57 -0500
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000613125741.24915Q-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.214857.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter Richardson <prichard at LINFIELD.EDU> said:
>> Having the second accent but not the first in resume is an error I've been
>> guilty of. I try to put on both or neither, but I don't consider only one to
>> be out in left field because both seems pretentious. (Sorry, it does!)
>
>Now let's call out the Latin police for all those job-seekers who send a
>"curriculum vita." "I'll send you my vita," he said, "or my curriculum
>vitae." But if you really want me to be pretentious, I'll send you my
>vitam instead."
>
>PR

Well, and on Sunday I heard the form curriculae! It was a reading at
church, which suggests it has made it into print!

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Wed Jun 14 05:37:25 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:37:25 -0700
Subject: Status
In-Reply-To: <200006140401.VAA03672@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.223725.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Steve--
        Sorry to hear y'all have gotten confused as to which pronunciation
is standard; will "data" be next? I always sort of jump inside when I hear
either word being pronounced with /ae/, despite being a card-carrying
nonprescriptivist. Sort of like hearing people pronounce "patio" with
/ae/.
        Rudy

P.S. Dennis, I loved your bilingual homograph.


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Wed Jun 14 10:18:55 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 06:18:55 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.061855.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: A. Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 3:21 PM
Subject: Accents in Am. English



>OK, There's an Irish guy on one of the lists who has got my dander up.  He
is
>insisting that it is wrong to leave off the accents on words in Am.
English.  I
>and another fellow (US folk) say baloney, in Am. English most people don't
learn
>accents, nor do they write them.  I think I've brought this to this list
before,
>but in case the idiot wants some sort of authoritative backup, I ask:


Okay, my opinion is worthless as far as authoritative backup goes, but as an
interested layperson and native speaker, I'll offer my opinions. Feel free
to ignore as you see fit.

First some perspective:

American English is a language where "lite" is printed with infinitely more
prominence than "light".

Online scribes casually reduce "for example" to "frex" without a second's
pause.

And every encounter with "should of" and someone's "peaked curiosity" (which
is a surprisingly good transition, and, I feel,  a more understandable
improvement over piqued curiosity, though it does lose some charm) should
leave your Irish correspondent's monitor drenched in spittle.

Now for my rules:

1) Technical feasibility. In handwriting this is not a problem. Typing on
your average pc keyboard does take some expertise, but it's not impossible.
I would expect those who have to deal with foriegn languages regularly
should know how to generate those characters they deal with. Unfortunately,
in the absence of total technical uniformity, unless you know how the
documents create are going to be displayed and used in all circumstances,
which is impossible in an environment such as our mailing list here, it's
absolutely pointless to stick to native typography. Andrea can (and has in
the past) go into the technical reasons behind this, but suffice to say, in
email correspondence, it's generally safer to stick to the letters, numbers,
and punctuation we can all display safely.

Note however that in most instances, such as sign making and publishing,
technical feasibility isn't generally a problem. It's mostly in the
information processing world that things get funky. Let's not even get
started on displaying advanced mathematics...

2) Context. If the sentence is entirely American English, and the word is
often printed (the definition of often is left to the writer) sans accent,
mark, or any other typographic element normally absent in American English,
such as cafe, resume, nee, forte, fiance, etc., go ahead and follow
precedent. If the word in question is appearing in its native language, such
as on a restaurant menu, or a business sign, then yes, native typography
should prevail, when technically feasible.

That's my recommendation, and it's worth every penny you paid for it, or 2
cents, whichever is greater.

Bruce


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Wed Jun 14 11:22:54 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:22:54 +0100
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <E131wMk-0005eJ-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.122254.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Andrea asks:
>
>> Would any of you mark a word wrong which lacks the accents that it had in its
>> originating language, e.g. resume, cafe, fiance?
>
>yes, yes, yes.
>
>>
>> Would you think that the word is missing its accents and is therefore harder to
>> understand?
>
>yes, particularly on 'resume'
>
>> If you saw the word "resumÈ" (the last letter is 'e' with an acute accent) would
>> you think, hey, it's missing the other accent?
>
>probably not.
>
>> Do any of you care?  Is it anyone's pet peeve?
>
>it's not my pet peeve, but i care.
>
>prescriptively,
>lynne

I wonder if it has something to so with not being in the U.S.  I would have had the same answers as Lynne.  I think it's some of the pedantry I've acquired being here.  :-)

--Aaron

--
________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Wed Jun 14 11:36:52 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:36:52 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.073652.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron E. Drews <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: Accents in Am. English



>I wonder if it has something to so with not being in the U.S.  I would have
had the same answers as Lynne.  I think it's some of the pedantry I've
acquired being here.  :-)
>
>--Aaron


Amazingly excellent point. In the EU, residents are exposed to the native
forms regularly, and documents cross borders with casual abandon. You have a
very large variety of languages in a relatively small space, compared to the
US where foreign language inputs are filtered through time, and geographic
proximity, which should be an integrity maintenance factor (is there some
fancy pro term for that?) is pretty much limited to Spanish.

I also encountered another homophonic transition that I omitted from my
earlier missive:
"mother load"

bkd


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Wed Jun 14 12:22:46 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:22:46 -0400
Subject: forte (was: Re: Accents in Am. English)
In-Reply-To: <3946B24C.C0490358@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.082246.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, A. Vine wrote:

> Funny, Rob Kyff just had it in his column, and insisted that monosyllabic
> "forte" was the human strength and bisyllabic "forte" the musical term.

Truth be told, in my humble little rural upbringing, I had never
heard single-syllable forte until I started working in lexicography.

But then again, 'boughten' is in my lexicon (another item I didn't
realize was nonstandard until a few years ago), especially in phrases like
"store-boughten bread" (as opposed to homemade).

--- Steve K.


From Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM  Wed Jun 14 12:28:59 2000
From: Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM (Joe Pickett)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:28:59 -0400
Subject: "Gyro" at Chicago's Parthenon Restaurant
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.082859.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<<Did anyone ever write McCormick's biography?  Or did he write his memoirs?
Either would probably be interesting reading.

Victoria
Merriam-Webster, Inc. P.O. Box 281
Springfield, MA 01102
Tel: 413-734-3134  ext 124
Fax: 413-827-7262  >>



Believe or not Houghton recently published a biography of Robert McCormick by
Richard Norton Smith.  Can't say I've read it.

Here's the Amazon site for it:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0395533791/qid=960985755/sr=1-4/102-6217130-1020123


Joe


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Wed Jun 14 12:33:57 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:33:57 -0400
Subject: Status
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPX.4.21.0006132231360.16836-100000@pavo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.083357.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Rudolph C Troike wrote:

> Sort of like hearing people pronounce "patio" with /ae/.

AHD 1, back in the 60s, listed the first pronunciation of patio with
/ae/ (short a, as in bat). This is also the first form in the latest
Random House College and MW10...

It appears with a-as-in-father in Kenyon & Knott's Pronouncing Dictionary
Of American English. (1953, a copyright update of 1944). Websters 2nd has
a-as-in-father; Webster's 3rd has a-as-in-bat, so there seems to have been
a shift midcentury.

--- Steve K.


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Wed Jun 14 12:34:56 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:34:56 -0500
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.073456.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think it makes sense to use the accent marks if including a
clearly foreign word or phrase in something but not if the word
has become a normal part of the English language.  Just as
borrowed words usually adapt to English phonology, they adapt
to English orthography.  English spelling doesn't use accent
marks.

I would consider putting an accent mark on a word like resume
when writing in English just as pretentious as pronouncing
borrowed words in an un-English way.  (I find it especially
amusing when a pseudo-sophisticate screws up and accidentally
spits on the listener in an attempt to pronounce Bach "properly.")
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Wed Jun 14 12:48:42 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:48:42 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <200006141234.HAA22128@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.084842.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, Natalie Maynor wrote:

> I would consider putting an accent mark on a word like resume
> when writing in English just as pretentious as pronouncing
> borrowed words in an un-English way.

How about the habit of frozen desserts and heavy metal bands to throw
umlauts all over the place?

(The funniest thing I ever heard the great Indo-Europeanist Eric Hamp say
was his attempt to pronounce Haagen Dazs umlauts and all... Those of you
who know Eric can appreciate this.)

--- Steve K.


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Tue Jun 13 18:49:18 2000
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:49:18 -0500
Subject: Abuzz.com censorship!
In-Reply-To: <39452BE1.1A31239D@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.134918.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

In your "open-letter" tradition. . .if you send me a write-up of your
"big apple" and "windy city" sagas (your findings, and the boneheaded
rejection of said findings by major media outlets) I promise to run
them in Verbatim. I'll even pay you! (Verbatim pays contributors.)

But I reserve the right to edit for length and to keep us from being
sued for libel. :-)

Erin McKean
editor at verbatimmag.com

>Barry,
>
>You're a lawyer - why don't you sue the Times, Abuzz, and others who are
>plagiarizing your work?  Once you make 'em hurt, they won't do it again.
>
>Meanwhile the 'www.thebigapple.net' domain is for sale.  Buy it and
>publish the
>truth.  Or better yet, put your info on http://www.snopes.com/ and
>http://www.urbanlegends.com/ which are recognized urban legend
>debunking sites.
>
>Andrea
>--
>Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
>"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
>--From "Angry Child" by Aardman Animation


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Tue Jun 13 18:35:16 2000
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:35:16 -0500
Subject: Snorkle Boxes?
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.133516.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was getting Henry a passport yesterday for our trip to Euralex and
visited a large post office on Chicago's far north side. There was a
large banner on the outside of the building telling people not to
park in the no parking zone and that "snorkle boxes" were available
in the nearby K-mart parking lot for customers' convenience.

Are snorkle boxes the post office boxes with the snouty-looking tops,
as opposed to the "pull the door open and put in your letters" type?
I did a desultory look in a few dictionaries--nothing. Ditto on
www.dogpile.com.

Also, on a recent foray into a parking garage downtown, I was advised
to pull up to the next "ticket spitter" since the first one was
broken. Is this the accepted term? It's what I'd call 'em!

Erin McKean


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Tue Jun 13 18:30:34 2000
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:30:34 -0500
Subject: albondigas! no te dije!
In-Reply-To: <34.6563449.26744c40@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.133034.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There are a *lot* of Spanish-speaking migrant agricultural workers in
eastern North Carolina. A friend of mine (a Duke alumna) spent a
summer as a rights worker there, making sure that the farmers did
what they were supposed to in terms of housing, education, etc. So
I'm not surprised that there are finally Spanish-language signs there.

I love Spanish-language signs. I'm always trying to apply my
high-school Latin towards figuring them out, regardless of whether I
actually *need* auto insurance or a podiatrist. Of course, in Chicago
there are many, many more than in eastern NC.

Erin McKean

>Driving back from the beach through rural eastern North Carolina I saw this
>sign a sale of double-wide trailors: "Tres dormitorios! Dos banos! [sic] $199
>mes!"
>
>This would not be surprising in southern Texas or southern Florida, but not
>too many years ago the locals down east put up billboards praising the KKK.
>Clearly, bilingual America is here to stay!


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 14 14:55:54 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:55:54 -0700
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.075554.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- "Steve K." <stevek at SHORE.NET> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, Natalie Maynor wrote:
>
> > I would consider putting an accent mark on a word
> like resume
> > when writing in English just as pretentious as
> pronouncing
> > borrowed words in an un-English way.
>
> How about the habit of frozen desserts and heavy
> metal bands to throw
> umlauts all over the place?
>
> (The funniest thing I ever heard the great
> Indo-Europeanist Eric Hamp say
> was his attempt to pronounce Haagen Dazs umlauts and
> all... Those of you
> who know Eric can appreciate this.)
>
> --- Steve K.

I don't know Eric, but I can imagine.  If the story I
heard on PBS is true and not just another urban
legend, Haagen Dazs has no real meaning or root in any
language - it's an impressive looking but meaningless
name that was simply made up by the marketing people
at Pillsbury!



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Wed Jun 14 15:13:41 2000
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:13:41 -0500
Subject: Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0006140845540.22293-100000@shell3.shore.net>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.101341.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am deeply sorry to have to tell you that your friend and colleague,
Frederic G. Cassidy, Chief Editor of the Dictionary of American Regional
English, died this morning.  It is hard to imagine DARE without him.



Joan H. Hall, Associate Editor
Dictionary of American Regional English
6125 Helen C. White Hall
600 N. Park St., Madison, WI 53706
<jdhall at facstaff.wisc.edu>
http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 14 15:21:45 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:21:45 -0400
Subject: Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000614101341.00d0eb74@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.112145.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Go with words Fred. Dennis Preston sure as hell wouldn't have been no
Professor without you.


>I am deeply sorry to have to tell you that your friend and colleague,
>Frederic G. Cassidy, Chief Editor of the Dictionary of American Regional
>English, died this morning.  It is hard to imagine DARE without him.
>
>
>
>Joan H. Hall, Associate Editor
>Dictionary of American Regional English
>6125 Helen C. White Hall
>600 N. Park St., Madison, WI 53706
><jdhall at facstaff.wisc.edu>
>http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Jun 14 15:30:16 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:30:16 -0700
Subject: Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000614101341.00d0eb74@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.083016.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Joan,

Gosh, even with the health problems he'd had in recent years, it's still
one of those shocks.  Do you know of a memorial of some sort (perhaps
connected with DARE) that folks could send a small gift to?

Peter Mc.

--On Wed, Jun 14, 2000 10:13 AM -0500 Joan Houston Hall
<jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU> wrote:

> I am deeply sorry to have to tell you that your friend and colleague,
> Frederic G. Cassidy, Chief Editor of the Dictionary of American Regional
> English, died this morning.  It is hard to imagine DARE without him.
>
>
>
> Joan H. Hall, Associate Editor
> Dictionary of American Regional English
> 6125 Helen C. White Hall
> 600 N. Park St., Madison, WI 53706
> <jdhall at facstaff.wisc.edu>
> http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 14 15:31:25 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:31:25 -0700
Subject: forte (was: Re: Accents in Am. English)
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.083125.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- "A. Vine" <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> wrote:
> "Steve K." wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Lynne Murphy wrote:
> >
> > > New Oxford has the pronuncation 'fort-ay' first,
> and AHD has it last, so
> > > perhaps the American shift toward 'forte' is
> built on the assumption that the
> > > British know best.
> >
> > A sneak preview of things to com: this order of
> pronunciations has
> > been switched for the 4th edition of the AHD, with
> 'for-tay' coming first
> > now.
> >
> > A strong majority of our Usage Panel (74%)
> preferred the two-syllable
> > pronunciation, for what it's worth.

> >
>
> Funny, Rob Kyff just had it in his column, and
> insisted that monosyllabic
> "forte" was the human strength and bisyllabic
> "forte" the musical term.

The French spell "forte" without an accent, the 'e' is
silent, and the word is a single syllable - the silent
"e" indicates the "t" is to be pronounced, the
masculine form being "fort" with a silent "t".  The
Italians pronounce the "e" but an accent is not needed
to indicate this ... placing an accent on the "e" in
Italian would move the stress from the first to second
syllable but would otherwise not change the
pronunciation.  I have never heard the Italian
pronunciation, two syllables with strong stress on the
first, used in English outside of a musical context.

I have heard the pseudo-French "for-tay" - sometimes
mild stress on the first syllable or basically equal
stress on both syllables, but usually stress on second
syllable  - used to indicate a strength or skill, but
I've also heard it pronounced simply as "fort", and
that's the way I was taught to pronounce it in Jr.
High English.

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 14 16:22:04 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:22:04 -0400
Subject: Griefcase
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.122204.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Pittsburgh, where I will check out the Barry Buchanan papers when archives opens at 1 p.m.
   This week's VILLAGE VOICE featured a cover story about the ridiculous amount of paperwork that's processed in foster child cases in New York City.  The caseworker described his briefcase of lengthy, dreary government forms as a "griefcase."
   Any hits on Nexis?
   As I was just about to post this "griefcase," I got the sad news about Fred.


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Wed Jun 14 16:19:01 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:19:01 -0500
Subject: Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000614101341.00d0eb74@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.111901.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Do you know whether he ever got the plant I had sent or saw it?

I am not surprised .  I felt that no news was bad news.

Hang in.

Bob

At 10:13 AM 6/14/00 -0500, you wrote:
>I am deeply sorry to have to tell you that your friend and colleague,
>Frederic G. Cassidy, Chief Editor of the Dictionary of American Regional
>English, died this morning.  It is hard to imagine DARE without him.
>
>
>
>Joan H. Hall, Associate Editor
>Dictionary of American Regional English
>6125 Helen C. White Hall
>600 N. Park St., Madison, WI 53706
><jdhall at facstaff.wisc.edu>
>http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html
>
>


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Wed Jun 14 16:22:09 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:22:09 -0500
Subject: FGC
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.112209.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There was never a better doctoral mentor than Fred Cassidy.  I still
remember the very first class I took from this excellent teacher.  He had
that wonderful gift of letting you go with an idea and not overmentor you.
When you were his research assistant, he let you do your work, not his; a
fact that occasionally got him into trouble with small-minded deanlets.

I will dearly miss the friend of my lifetime.

Bob Wachal


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Wed Jun 14 16:35:47 2000
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:35:47 -0500
Subject: Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000614111901.007df910@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.113547.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Bob,
I'm sorry--I thought I had told you that he did receive a lovely hibiscus
from you and Jane.  I can't tell you for certain how aware he was of
anything--sometimes I feel sure he recognized my voice, but he could
neither see nor speak.

Whoever took your message for the card that came with the plant was of a
different generation (or something!)--the message came through as "Hangin'
there, mentor mine."  Oh, well.

A memorial service is planned for Sunday.  We're hangin' in.

Joan


At 11:19 AM 6/14/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>Do you know whether he ever got the plant I had sent or saw it?
>
>I am not surprised .  I felt that no news was bad news.
>
>Hang in.
>
>Bob
>
>At 10:13 AM 6/14/00 -0500, you wrote:
>>I am deeply sorry to have to tell you that your friend and colleague,
>>Frederic G. Cassidy, Chief Editor of the Dictionary of American Regional
>>English, died this morning.  It is hard to imagine DARE without him.
>>
>>
>>
>>Joan H. Hall, Associate Editor
>>Dictionary of American Regional English
>>6125 Helen C. White Hall
>>600 N. Park St., Madison, WI 53706
>><jdhall at facstaff.wisc.edu>
>>http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html
>>
>>
>


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Wed Jun 14 16:39:17 2000
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:39:17 -0500
Subject: Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000614112209.007c6e00@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.113917.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A number of people have asked how memorials might be made for Fred.  His
family has asked that remembrances be sent to The Frederic G. Cassidy DARE
Fund, The University of Wisconsin, 6131 Helen White Hall, 600 North Park
Street, Madison, WI 53706.


A memorial service is planned for Sunday, June 18, in Madison.


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Wed Jun 14 16:42:47 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:42:47 -0500
Subject: MY CONTRIBUTION
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.114247.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

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From GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA  Wed Jun 14 17:20:38 2000
From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA (GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:20:38 PDT
Subject: FGC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000614112209.007c6e00@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.102038.PDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was privileged to meet Fred Cassidy twice - once when he visited Uvic in
the late '60s when I was a graduate student (he left us a copy of the draft
questionnaires for DARE, which I used later in my dialectology courses and
which are still in the departmental library - I hope!) and again many years
later at an ADS meeting when his presentation was scheduled at the same time
as mine. I was very cross about that, not because I had such a small audience
but because I couldn't go to hear his paper! (It had something to do with his
having to catch a plane, as I recall.)

This is truly the end of an era.

Barbara Harris.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 14 18:00:40 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:00:40 -0400
Subject: Status
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0006140825250.22293-100000@shell3.shore.net>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.140040.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:33 AM -0400 6/14/00, Steve K. wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>
>> Sort of like hearing people pronounce "patio" with /ae/.
>
>AHD 1, back in the 60s, listed the first pronunciation of patio with
>/ae/ (short a, as in bat). This is also the first form in the latest
>Random House College and MW10...
>
>It appears with a-as-in-father in Kenyon & Knott's Pronouncing Dictionary
>Of American English. (1953, a copyright update of 1944). Websters 2nd has
>a-as-in-father; Webster's 3rd has a-as-in-bat, so there seems to have been
>a shift midcentury.
>

I (b. 1945) can't recall ever hearing anything OTHER than /ae/ for the
stressed vowel in "patio" in New York, California, or Wisconsin.  And I'm
sure I would have registered someone saying what would have been processed
as "potty-o", with the a-as-in-"father".  Could there in fact have been
some modicum of taboo avoidance involved in the posited mid-century shift?

Larry


From debaron at NTX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU  Wed Jun 14 17:58:20 2000
From: debaron at NTX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:58:20 -0500
Subject: FGC
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.125820.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is very sad. I will be in Madison for a few days in July and hoped to
be able to see Fred then. Fred Cassidy was the press reader for my first
book, Grammar and Good Taste: Reforming the American Language (1982). I had
known him, before that, from ADS meetings, but our professional contact
really stemmed from that review--which he allowed the press to tell me he
had written. Fred was generous with his praise (the book got published,
after all), and he told me with tact and force exactly where I had gone off
track. The revisions he called for definitely improved the text.  I often
consulted him for later projects, and he always encouraged my work, even
when he disagreed with my conclusions. I imposed on him for letters of
reference from time to time, and after he wrote each of them he'd send me a
little note saying something like, "I've written the letter to so-and-so. It
will do you no harm." I loved that phrase.

I hadn't seen Fred in recent years (I haven't even been to ADS since it
moved to meet with LSA, my departmental duties requiring my attendance at
MLA each year and family obligations precluding two professional trips
during winter vacation)--but did exchange notes from time to time. I will
miss him greatly.

Dennis
__________________
Dennis Baron, Head                       debaron at uiuc.edu
Department of English                            217-333-2390
University of Illinois                          fax: 217-333-4321
608 S. Wright St.      http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron
Urbana, IL 61801


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 14 18:20:59 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:20:59 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <20000614145554.987.qmail@web1301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.142059.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>I don't know Eric, but I can imagine.  If the story I
>heard on PBS is true and not just another urban
>legend, Haagen Dazs has no real meaning or root in any
>language - it's an impressive looking but meaningless
>name that was simply made up by the marketing people
>at Pillsbury!
>
>=====
>James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
>SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
>jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
>                               |or slowly and cautiously.

Not only doesn't Häagen Dazs have any meaning in any language, I don't
believe we're likely to run into too many real world instances of a long
vowel with the first half umlauted (hence presumably fronted) and the
second not.  I suppose if any one could have pronounced that diphthong, it
would have been Eric Hamp.  At least the Dazs part looks like something
that could pass for plausible old German or perhaps Hungarian.  And then
there the umlaut in the Blue Öyster Cult or whatever it was...No wonder
people have started using "diphthong" as an insult!

Larry


From HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU  Wed Jun 14 19:29:36 2000
From: HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:29:36 -0500
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.142936.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not only doesn't Häagen Dazs have any meaning in any language, I don't
believe we're likely to run into too many real world instances of a long
vowel with the first half umlauted (hence presumably fronted) and the
second not.

Larry,

You've misinterpreted the form.  It's clearly OE vowel breaking.  It's the dessert Hrothgar served after Beowulf killed Grendel.

Herb Stahlke


From faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 14 19:29:36 2000
From: faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:29:36 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <v04011705b56d7bfa0599@[130.132.116.12]>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.152936.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>Not only doesn't Häagen Dazs have any meaning in any language, I don't
>believe we're likely to run into too many real world instances of a long
>vowel with the first half umlauted (hence presumably fronted) and the
>second not.

Given that the reverse (diphthong moving from back to front, with
concommitant change in rounding) *does* occur, even if it isn't
cross-linguistically all that common (oy!), can we really assume that
the reverse doesn't?


 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                    new, improved email: faber at pop.haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories            old email, if you must: faber at haskins.yale.edu
New Haven, CT 06511 USA           tel: (203) 865-6163 x258; fax (203) 865-8963


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 14 20:21:33 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:21:33 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <v04210100b56d8d389dec@[130.132.95.163]>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.162133.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Alice Faber writes:

>Laurence Horn wrote:
>>
>>Not only doesn't Häagen Dazs have any meaning in any language, I don't
>>believe we're likely to run into too many real world instances of a long
>>vowel with the first half umlauted (hence presumably fronted) and the
>>second not.
>
>Given that the reverse (diphthong moving from back to front, with
>concommitant change in rounding) *does* occur, even if it isn't
>cross-linguistically all that common (oy!), can we really assume that
>the reverse doesn't?
>
Well, there's nothing wrong with diphthongs like "Hyagen" or "Heagen", but
the spelling -äa- indicates to me some sort of vowel disharmony between two
halves of the diphthong, which would seem quite rare indeed.  But maybe
that's why the ice cream is so pricey--supply & demand and all.  (I do love
their mango sorbet, umlaut--or if Herb is right, reverse diaeresis--be
damned.)

larry


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 14 20:23:49 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:23:49 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <v04011709b56d9877bbf8@[130.132.116.12]>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.162349.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My favorite was a (now defunct?) chain called Burger Frësh. Umlauted
burgers are doubtless frësher!

dInIs


>Alice Faber writes:
>
>>Laurence Horn wrote:
>>>
>>>Not only doesn't Häagen Dazs have any meaning in any language, I don't
>>>believe we're likely to run into too many real world instances of a long
>>>vowel with the first half umlauted (hence presumably fronted) and the
>>>second not.
>>
>>Given that the reverse (diphthong moving from back to front, with
>>concommitant change in rounding) *does* occur, even if it isn't
>>cross-linguistically all that common (oy!), can we really assume that
>>the reverse doesn't?
>>
>Well, there's nothing wrong with diphthongs like "Hyagen" or "Heagen", but
>the spelling -äa- indicates to me some sort of vowel disharmony between two
>halves of the diphthong, which would seem quite rare indeed.  But maybe
>that's why the ice cream is so pricey--supply & demand and all.  (I do love
>their mango sorbet, umlaut--or if Herb is right, reverse diaeresis--be
>damned.)
>
>larry


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 14 21:53:13 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:53:13 -0400
Subject: Barry Buchanan papers at CMU
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.175313.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   This is like some Don MacLean song about the "day the music died."  Well, anyway, today I went through Barry Buchanan's shoeboxes, and it's a major collection here at Carnegie Mellon University.
  There are 24 shoeboxes for Carnival, Circus, Theater, Vaudeville, Motion Picture, and Acrobatics terminology.  I was able to copy just one shoebox of index cards in a few hours (1-5 p.m.).  However, I'll probably hire some students to help.
  It's way too much to put on ADS-L, although it probably deserves to be online.  I'll probably copy the copies for the OED, the RHHDAS, Jerry Cohen, and anyone else who wants to look at this .
  "A Brief Resume" of Barry Buchanan shows various things, the last positions being 1962-1964 General Manager for Top of the Fair, New York World's Fair, and 1965 to date, Consultant.  It also has:

AUTHOR:  ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SHOW BUSINESS--The first encyclopedia-dictionary of the equipment, technical terminology, language, patois and slang of all phases of the entertainment business from the Greek and Roman theatre through Television.  Currently in the final stage of editing.

  Barry Buchanan died on November 15, 1977.  On pages 2-3 of his will, he mentions the work and authorizes several members of VARIETY (Leonard Traube, Abel Green, Sid Silverman) to posthumously publish it for him.  He also bequeaths papers to Carnegie Mellon University.
  This 9-11-83 letter from Bonnie Johns of the CMU West Coast Drama Alumni Clan reads in part:

  So many people have been disinterested in Barry's (I feel I know him on a first-name basis) papers they've become low-priority.  The enclosed flier shows Barry was putting together an encyclopedia.  Maybe Charlie Willard can find out if it was ever published.  Tho', if so, why would he have saved all his boxes of indexed terms?  At any rate, Jane and I tossed what we felt could easily be found in any current text or library.  We saved the "goodies"--boxes of theatre, circus and vaudeville slang, terms and colloquialisms (though they'll need some sorting out too).  We also included well-kept brochures on old film equipment, etc., circus programs (he travelled with several companies), playbills and theatre memorabilia.  He certainly was organized and with quite an historical bent.
   (...) I'm glad you called me to look through Barry's papers.  He obviously felt he'd left something of worth and I felt, especially after so much rejection, that someone should take a friendly open-eye look to it.  (...) Whithin those hours we delighted in exciting finds, apologized aloud to Barry for what we threw out as he was quite consumed with his research, and laughed over vaudeville (and other ) terms which helped maintain our level of humor with the warehouse people who just wanted us to get the stuff out of there.  We're anxious to find out more about him; from what we've glimpsed he seems quite a caring man whose dreams were never quite realized.

  There are some etymologies on the indexed cards, but no citations to other material, unfortunately.  Although  Buchanan was always working on this project, it appears that all of the cards date from about 1938-1939, when he described his boxes of cards in that newspaper article I previously posted.
  Here's an example in the "Motion Picture" shoebox:

THE BIG APPLE  Slang for New York City. (from negro patois)

  This is exactly what we would expect for the late 1930s.
  Some other index cards and terms, at random:

LOVE-SICK LOUIE  Amusement park slang for any young man who seems to be very much in love with the girl who is accompanying him.

LEMONADER  Slang for confidence man; a grifter (see both).  So-called, because the subject of his activities is "handed a lemon", i.e., cheated.

KEISTER  Slang for a pitchman's case, in which he carries his stock, and which he places on a tripod when selling.  The combination is called tripes and keister.  Cf. tripes.  Also, a suitcase of bag; also, a safe; also, sometimes used in synonymous with jail; also, the buttocks; also, a cheapshot.  The term stems from an obsolete use of a similar slang term keyster, i.e., anything that is locked with a key.

FUZZ Slang for a policeman; the police.  The term is derived from an incident in which a female detective with fuzzy hair caused the arrest of a grifter.


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Wed Jun 14 22:35:07 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:35:07 -0500
Subject: Fred Cassidy
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.173507.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've got a wonderful picture I took of Fred Cassidy standing on top
of a large boulder somewhere around Bangor, Wales, in '87.  I remember
being impressed with his energy as he scrambled up its side.  I guess
it was that same energy that kept him going, both physically and
mentally, for another thirteen years.

And suddenly I'm reminded of Michael Miller.  No doubt on the morning
of the day I took that picture of Fred Cassidy on the rock, Michael
and I, the early risers in the group, enjoyed good conversations
while drinking our coffee and tea in the tiny room at the end of the
hall in the dorm we all stayed in.  I feel fortunate to have known
Fred Cassidy and Michael Miller, two great human beings.

   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 14 23:03:15 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:03:15 -0400
Subject: Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <200006142235.RAA06505@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.190315.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Natalie,

The day before (or after) that, Fred, Walter Cichocki, my wife Carol and I
went for a drive around Bangor, to the boondocks, which Fred and I both
liked. We got lost (in the road, not the direction, sense) and decided to
go up and over (rather than the stodgy, which Fred was never for, around).
As we came to the end of the road and I started to turn back, Fred hopped
out of the car, opened the sheep gate, and waved us through. "Got to be a
way down," said the only person (other than Santa Claus) who I ever saw who
actually had a twinkle in his eye. A little later we came down on the other
side, the bright lights of Bangor in the distance.

dInIs

>I've got a wonderful picture I took of Fred Cassidy standing on top
>of a large boulder somewhere around Bangor, Wales, in '87.  I remember
>being impressed with his energy as he scrambled up its side.  I guess
>it was that same energy that kept him going, both physically and
>mentally, for another thirteen years.
>
>And suddenly I'm reminded of Michael Miller.  No doubt on the morning
>of the day I took that picture of Fred Cassidy on the rock, Michael
>and I, the early risers in the group, enjoyed good conversations
>while drinking our coffee and tea in the tiny room at the end of the
>hall in the dorm we all stayed in.  I feel fortunate to have known
>Fred Cassidy and Michael Miller, two great human beings.
>
>   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 00:15:00 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:15:00 -0400
Subject: Glossary of Swing and Jitterbug Terms (part 1)
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.201500.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I just reached the last line when AOL signed me off.  I'll try this again in two parts.
   This undated, unsourced item was in the Barry Buchanan papers.  Lighter doesn't cite it in the RHHDAS, and also doesn't have some of these terms.
   This probably dates from 1938 or 1939.

(Pg. 32)
_Glossary of Swing and Jitterbug Terms_

"alligators"...swing fans, jitterbugs, also dancers
"barrel house"...crude, low down playing
"beat"...tired, lacking anything, low in spirit
"beat to your socks"...lacking everything, broke, exhausted
"beat your chops"...to talk, be loquacious
"blow your top off"...in happy spirit, in a gay mood
"boogie-woogie"...heavy bass (as applied to blues)
"break it up"...to stop the show
"bring down"...depressing, anything you don't like
"bust your conk"...something that will make you enthuse, "send you," go to your head, apply yourself diligently
"canary"...girl vocalist in orchestra
"carpet-cutting"...dancing (same as rug-cutter)
"cat"...devotee of swing
"chick"...a girl
"chilly-chang"...sensational, out-of-this-world
"clambake"...every man for himself, resulting in bad music
"come again"...to do better than you are doing
"cooling"...laying off between engagements
"corn"...not modern, "dated"
"corny"...old fashioned
"creep"...slow dancing, not much pep
"cut out"...depart or leave
"dig"...look, meet or comprehend
"dig me"...see me later and tell me more
"Dracula"...in a class by itself
"easy Jackson"...a guy who will take a drink, but seldom buys one
"evil" in bad humor
"fall out"...oversome with emotion
"fems"...the fairer sex
"floogie"...a dance innovation, a dance step
(Col. 2--ed.)
"floosey"...a girl who rides on the rear seat of a motorcycle
"fluke"...an odd person, very clever
"fooey"...terrible, false, hard to believe
"four-six and five"...a jumbled conversation
"from Dixie"...stale, lacking interest, antiquated
"fruiting"...fooling around
"gage"...reefers
"gate"...a salutation, a man, a "hepster" or a pal
"ghee"...a fellow, man, guy
"got your boots on"...know what ti's all about, awake, aware of what is going on
"grip the flesh"...let me shake your hand, shake my hand
"gutbucket"...low down music
"having myself a time"...to enjoy one's self, having fun or celebrating
"he walks in six-eight tempo"...someone who has been kicked in the shins
"hep cat"...one who knows what it's all about
"hepped"...to be wise to things, in-the-know
"high"...intoxicated by liquor or marihuana
"high as a kite"...giddy, feeling good, aesthetic
"hitchy"...snooty or conceited
"icky"...one who is not hep; a corny person
"in the chips"...having money
"in the groove"...inspired emotionally
"in your cups"...intoxicated, half-asleep
"jam"...improvised swing music
"jamboree"...a meeting place for jitterbugs, a dance contest
"jam session"...a swingfest in which all men improvise
"Jeff"...a fellow (same as ghee)
"jelly"...anything free; on the house
"jitterbug"...a swing fan, a dance of the modern school

Continued on pg. 33...


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 00:44:08 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:44:08 -0400
Subject: Glossary of Swing and Jitterbug Terms (part 2)
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.204408.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Pg. 33:

"jitter sauce"...liquor
"jive"...the jargon itself, lingo or speech
"jive wire"...a sophisticated jitterbug
"jog up the cats"...let's have some music, give out with the orchestra
"joint is jumping"...the place is lively, people making merry
"kill me"...show me a good time  (KIDS!  DO NOT USE!  THESE JIVE MASTERS ARE PROFESSIONALS!--ed.)
"killer-diller"...a great thrill, or the "tops"
"kopassetic"...absolutely all right, okay
"krum"...a cheap person, inconsequential
"licks"...hot musical phrases
"light up"...to smoke a reefer or cigarette
"long hair"...musician who plays by note, or prefers the classics
"mahogany"...piano
"mellow"...all right,, fine, in good mood
"muggin"...making 'em laugh, giving out with "jive"
"neigho pops"...nothing doing Mister
"nix out"...eliminate
"no soap"...nothing at all
"off the cob"...corny, old-fashioned in style or taste
"out-of-this-world"...perfect rendition, perfection, moved to the nth degree
"pitch a little woo"...make love, become affectionate
"plenty hep"...smart, having great understanding, wise to everything
"plenty of bounce"...lots of rhythm, full of pep
"reefer"...marihuana cigarette
"rib"...to tease, give a person the "burn-up," or annoy someone
"rock 'em solid"...give it all you've got
"rock me"...send me, or to swing on down
"rug cutter"...a very good dancer (same as carpet-cutter)
(COl. 2--ed.)
"sailing"...high, aesthetic, or intoxicated
"salty"...angry or mad
"schmaltz"...unctious music
"send me"...to arouse the emotion, pleased, thrilled, amused
"sharp"...nifty, neat and tricky
"sharp as a tack"...very sharp, perfect, great in every respect, groomed to super-perfection, show-off
"slip me some skin"...congratulate me, give me your hand
"so help me"...it's the truth, believe me
"solid"...all right, great, swell, terrific
"stooge"...a sap, a vapid person
"strictly barrel-house"...playing an instrument in a low-down manner
"swingfest"...a gathering of jitterbugs, dancing, a jamboree
"take a powder"...leave, take a walk, go away
"take off"...playing a solo, going-to-town
"tea"...reefers, marihuana
"teapad"...any place where they smoke weed
"the stuff is here"...on hand, plenty of it
"togged to the bricks"...dressed to kill, from head to foot
"trilly"...get started, exit, cut loose
"truck"...to dance, the dance itself
"truckin' on down"...to go somehwere, to leave
"twerps"..no-good guys
"twister to the slammer"...key to a door
"twits"...young punks, wise-crackers
"unhip"...not familiar, not wise
"viper"...one who smokes the weed
"weed"...marihuana
"whip that thing"...play that instrument
"whipped up"...beat, exhausted
"woo-hoo"...ain't that something?
"zas-zu-zas"...music, a shout of enjoyment


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Thu Jun 15 00:46:31 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:46:31 -0700
Subject: Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000614101341.00d0eb74@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.174631.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am so very sorry.  I guess I just kept expecting him to bounce back
from this latest problem as he had previously.  I am left with very
fond memories of talks and drinks and his twinkle.  He will be
missed.  (And I'm so glad I was able to catch that picture of him
dancing with Vicki in Madison.)

Rima


From Dfcoye at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 01:13:57 2000
From: Dfcoye at AOL.COM (Dfcoye at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:13:57 EDT
Subject: forte (was: Re: Accents in Am. English)
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.211357.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'd recommend using the accent marks in words like cafe, protege, soufle, and
fiance where it indicates that the final 'e' is to be pronounced as in French
(IPA /e/), and it otherwise looks like a silent e.  But in cases  like the
first 'e' of elite where nearly everyone in the USA uses epsilon, or schwa
there's no point in using the accent mark (I would have said absolutely
everyone, but two days ago I heard a colleague pronouncing it /'e lit/-- it
took me a minute or two to figure out what he meant).  Similarly 'resume'
needs an accent on the final 'e', but none on the first 'e' because the first
is epsilon, the second /e/ for nearly everyone-- again I have encountered the
rare pronunciation of the first vowel as /e/-- but it sounds bizarre.
Curriculum vitae, by the way should be pronounced to rhyme with 'mighty' if
the normal rules of anglicization of Latin were to be followed, but I think
most people use the 'restored Latin' pronunciation /'vi tei/.   But no one
says /ku rIk u lum/... consistency is not our forte (which you almost have to
pronounce /for te/ or everyone will THINK you're  ignorant.

Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From Dfcoye at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 01:26:53 2000
From: Dfcoye at AOL.COM (Dfcoye at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:26:53 EDT
Subject: Passing of William Moulton
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.212653.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Princeton papers announced today that William Moulton died yesterday,
virtually the same day as Fred Cassidy.   Professor Moulton was my advisor at
Princeton (I believe I was the last PhD candidate he worked with.  He was at
Princeton from 1960-79 and before that at Cornell.   During the WWII he was a
captain in the armed forces preparing guides to help servicemen and women
learn German.  He was renowned for his work in Swiss German, but he had an
avid interest in American dialects as well, and was a long-standing member of
ADS.   He was a great guy to work with and a terrific story-teller.
    Apparently he had been living in Exeter, NH where the service will be
held.

Dale Coye
The College of NJ.


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 02:35:59 2000
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (P2052 at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:35:59 EDT
Subject: INPUTS
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.223559.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Lately, I have observed a number of memos pluralizing the noun input (pl. inpu
ts), which I had assumed to be a mass noun.   While the various dictionaries
also cited verb forms, specifically -ed and -ing, none a 3rd person singular
form (-s), thereby precluding any possible confusion between the 3rd person
singular and the plural noun.  Is this a new trend which is applicable to
similar nouns, such as intake (pl. intakes), output (pl. outputs), or
feedback (pl. feedbacks)? Or is it specific to the word input?  Is this a
specialized term (I've seen it used primarily in memos from computer literate
military personnel .)  Or could this use possibly be a mistake that is having
ripple effects?
                            PAT


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Thu Jun 15 03:56:27 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:56:27 -0400
Subject: Fred Cassidy
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.235627.0400.>

Very sad indeed. Here are a few memories from a non-academic:

I first met Fred in 1967 with my wife who had just arrived from India. We
were on an extended honeymoon and had started going on business and
professional trips together. DARE was in its teens, I think. So were
computers, with Dick Venezky at the helm of the DARE project. I had several
meetings with Fred and his colleagues, including one in his office when he
suggested I buy a copy of his Dictionary of Jamaican English instead of
referring to it. Later we had lunch together.

Fred was one of three academics I approached for blurbs when my NYT Everyday
Dictionary was published in 1982. I could always count on him as a friend
and helper. Whenever I gave a paper (ADS, MLA, DSNA, etc.) he could be
expected to be there. He contributed an unpublished "Song of the Native
Speaker" (which he had presented to the Linguistic Circle of Madison in
1962) to that 1985 book of mine. He was one of only four in an audience that
attended a paper I gave the ANS in 1988. I felt honoured. I may not be
giving any more papers, but I will miss him.

I wanted to celebrate the 30th anniversary of our 1967 meeting (at least
nominally) at the DSNA meeting held in Madison, but couldn't make it because
of problems. Before this becomes a resume of my own career, let me say
Requiescat in pace, Fred Cassidy.
===============================================

Joan Houston Hall wrote:

> I am deeply sorry to have to tell you that your friend and colleague,
> Frederic G. Cassidy, Chief Editor of the Dictionary of American Regional
> English, died this morning.  It is hard to imagine DARE without him.
>
> Joan H. Hall, Associate Editor
> Dictionary of American Regional English
> 6125 Helen C. White Hall
> 600 N. Park St., Madison, WI 53706
> <jdhall at facstaff.wisc.edu>
> http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Jun 15 03:59:19 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:59:19 -0500
Subject: Fred Cassidy
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.225919.0500.>

I'm speechless.  Fred was the first speaker in the Tamony Lecture Series.  Part of me died
this morning, and I just now found out..

DMLance

Joan Houston Hall wrote:

> I am deeply sorry to have to tell you that your friend and colleague,
> Frederic G. Cassidy, Chief Editor of the Dictionary of American Regional
> English, died this morning.  It is hard to imagine DARE without him.
>
> Joan H. Hall, Associate Editor
> Dictionary of American Regional English
> 6125 Helen C. White Hall
> 600 N. Park St., Madison, WI 53706
> <jdhall at facstaff.wisc.edu>
> http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Jun 15 04:26:15 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:26:15 -0500
Subject: Fred Cassidy
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.232615.0500.>

Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:

> ...  (And I'm so glad I was able to catch that picture of him
> dancing with Vicki in Madison.)

And I'm glad I took that picture that was reproduced in the DSNA Newsletter.  What a
soirée that Madison meeting was -- with Fred, Fred, Fred, Joan, Joan, and others.

As I've continued doing my e-mail this evening, I've had a sinking feeling with each one I
saw on some piddly little usage item, but heartened by each message on Fred.  Gradually,
the sinking feelings lessened because I knew Fred would chide me.  The only thing I want
to think about for a while is Frederic Gomes Cassidy.

DMLance


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Thu Jun 15 08:30:24 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 01:30:24 -0700
Subject: Fred Cassiday
In-Reply-To: <200005310400.VAA21085@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.013024.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Joan and all the DARE staff,

        Our hearts are very much with you in the truly irreplaceable loss
of a good friend and colleague. Fred was certainly one of the giants of
the field, yet so warmly human and modest. Many of the comments about him
mention his twinkle, which so aptly characterized him. Not only DARE but
the whole field of linguistics has lost a great man and a wonderful human
being.

        Rudy Troike


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 15 12:08:43 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:08:43 -0400
Subject: INPUTS
In-Reply-To: <bb.441d784.26799b0f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.080843.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 14 Jun 2000 P2052 at AOL.COM wrote:

> Lately, I have observed a number of memos pluralizing the noun input (pl. inpu
> ts), which I had assumed to be a mass noun.   While the various dictionaries
> also cited verb forms, specifically -ed and -ing, none a 3rd person singular
> form (-s), thereby precluding any possible confusion between the 3rd person
> singular and the plural noun.  Is this a new trend which is applicable to
> similar nouns, such as intake (pl. intakes), output (pl. outputs), or
> feedback (pl. feedbacks)? Or is it specific to the word input?  Is this a
> specialized term (I've seen it used primarily in memos from computer literate
> military personnel .)  Or could this use possibly be a mistake that is having
> ripple effects?

The OED has "input" as a countable noun in computing as far back as 1973,
and it probably was in use in the 1940s.  In non-computer senses this was
a countable noun back to the 1700s.  I imagine that the other nouns you
mention also have a history of countable usage.

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Jun 15 12:48:38 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:48:38 +0100
Subject: 'jo girl'
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.134838.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A friend forwarded me this article from "High Country News" with this 'jo girl'
reference (2nd paragraph).  Do people know the term?  Is it only girls?

Lynne

> Not your average beauty queen
> UNCOMMON WESTERNERS
> Profile by Lisa Jones
>
> Rachel Benally, recent runner-up in the Southwest Regional Miss Navajo
> Pageant, Internet surfer, and unflinching slaughterer of her grandmother's
> goats, lies in a reclining chair in her Aunt Sharon's living room. She is
> recovering from last night's TV-watching marathon. Wrapped in a comforter,
> she is discussing things with me and her cousin, Heather Begay.
>
> "I'm not into dating," says Rachel, who is 24 years old, with a round,
> serious face and long black hair. "No guys in high school. Even in college,
> all I ever did was study in my room. I'm not like Heather," she laughs.
> Heather, who is 12, is lying down on the floor wearing black, shiny
> sweatpants, a black Nike T-shirt and a large crucifix pendant. She retorts
> that Rachel is a "Jo Girl" - a girl who likes to speak Navajo. Heather can
> speak Navajo, too, but only does so when she has to, with her grandparents.
> "No one speaks it," she explains. "Only older people do; maybe people over 30
> or 40 years old."
>
[rest of article deleted]
> © copyright 2000 High Country News and Lisa Jones
> ______________________________________________


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 13:12:27 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:12:27 EDT
Subject: Passing of William Moulton
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.091227.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was an undergraduate at Cornell when I took a course in Middle High German
from William Moulton. He had us memorize 50 lines of the Nibelungenlied and
said that long after we'd forgotten the rest of the course, we'd remember
that. He was right -
Es was ein kuneginne gesessen ueber see/ Ninder ir geliche was deheiniu me
(sorry for the misspellings). . . .
- Allan Metcalf


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 13:12:26 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:12:26 EDT
Subject: Fred Cassidy
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.091226.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Among his countless accomplishments, Fred is incidentally responsible for the
longest-running and most popular feature of the Newsletter of the American
Dialect Society. In the summer of 1977, when he visited Raven McDavid's NEH
seminar at the University of Chicago, I as a new editor suggested that he
have a column in each issue telling us about progress on the as yet
unpublished dictionary. He immediately thought of something better: a column
tantalizing us with obscure words and asking our help. Ever since, the DARE
queries have invited our participation and reminded us that DARE is an ADS
project - and worthy of our financial support too, while we're at it.

No. 48 in the series will appear in the "May" issue. It was going to the
printer yesterday but will be delayed a week to include full coverage of
events in Madison. - Allan Metcalf


From Allynherna at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 13:53:56 2000
From: Allynherna at AOL.COM (Allynherna at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:53:56 EDT
Subject: Fred Cassidy
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.095356.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What sad, sad news.  I consider the hours spent talking with Fred at meetings
and the letters about linguistics and travel that we exchanged such treasures.
(Goodbye dear Fred--it won't be the same without you.)
Allyn


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Thu Jun 15 14:48:45 2000
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:48:45 -0500
Subject: Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <b6.67d150f.267a39f4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.094845.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Obituaries for Fred can be seen at http://www.madison.com   (click on the
"Obituaries" link)  and at
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/obit-f-cassidy.html.


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Thu Jun 15 16:21:00 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:21:00 -0400
Subject: patio
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.122100.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Steve K." <stevek at SHORE.NET> writes:

>>>>>
On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Rudolph C Troike wrote:

> Sort of like hearing people pronounce "patio" with /ae/.

AHD 1, back in the 60s, listed the first pronunciation of patio with
/ae/ (short a, as in bat). This is also the first form in the latest
Random House College and MW10...

It appears with a-as-in-father in Kenyon & Knott's Pronouncing Dictionary
Of American English. (1953, a copyright update of 1944). Websters 2nd has
a-as-in-father; Webster's 3rd has a-as-in-bat, so there seems to have been
a shift midcentury.
<<<<<

/ae/ is the only way I've EVER heard it. We had one when I was a kid (NYC
suburbs, 50s). Is the /a/-as-in-father pron from Spanish?

-- Mark


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Thu Jun 15 16:24:04 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:24:04 -0400
Subject: Great expectorations (was: Accents in Am. English)
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.122404.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Natalie Maynor <maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU> writes:

>>>>>
I would consider putting an accent mark on a word like resume
when writing in English just as pretentious as pronouncing
borrowed words in an un-English way.  (I find it especially
amusing when a pseudo-sophisticate screws up and accidentally
spits on the listener in an attempt to pronounce Bach "properly.")
<<<<<

In Klingon this happens all the time!  }}}:->\  Just t'other day I had to avert
my face from my interlocutors when exemplifying -- over lunch -- the voiceless
uvular and coronal affricates Q and tlh. Rice all over....

      marqem, tlhIngan veQbeq la'Hom -- Heghbej ghIHmoHwI'pu'!
 Subcmdr. Marke'm, Klingon Sanitation Corps -- Death to Litterbugs!
                     http://world.std.com/~mam/
           http://world.std.com/~mam/klingon/Klingon.html


From mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Jun 15 19:05:02 2000
From: mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Salikoko Mufwene)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:05:02 -0700
Subject: REMEMBERING Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000615094845.00d141a8@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.120502.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     I met Fred Cassidy at a conference of the Society for Caribbean
Linguistics in Aruba in 1980. I was then testing the new waters of creole
studies, kind of retooling myself after graduate training in semantics and
syntax and marginal training in language contact through a reading course.
Fred was one of few people who spoke to me after my presentation and
suggested I pay more attention to subtle semantic distinctions between
constructions that appear synonymous at first glance. His example, as I
remember, was the important distinction between /mi don taak/ and /mi taak
don/ in Jamaican Creole.

     Fred was very helpful to me in subsequent years when we met at
conferences, like in Jamaica in 1984, in Barbados in 1992, and recently in
London in 1997. He paid careful attention to my presentations, my answers
to questions, and to the often-agressive questions I asked other
presenters. (At least that's impression he gave me.) He taught me the value
of collaborating with colleagues who do not share my positions and to
realize that sometimes the differences in our views are not as big as they
seem. In 1997 he even suggested that one specific such a colleage and I
should perhaps get together an write an essay on those specific issues
where we disagree, at least as an exercise in articulating our positions
clearly to each other and bridging our differences. I hope this so-far
nameless and esteemed colleague of mine and I will some day make the time
to honor Fred with such an essay.

     In 1992 I had the privilege of having a paper of mine published in the
Festschrift to him. As much as I hailed his contribution to the debate on
the development of Gullah, I just couldn't resist the congenital impulse of
disputing some of his positions. Fred wrote me about my paper, with thanks,
and promised to address those issues I raised. Nobody else to whose
Festschrift I have contributed has ever written me and I was touched by
Fred's cooperative reaction. What a fine teacher he must have been to those
who were even closer to him! It is a shame he did not have the time, no
live longer enough to say his last words on those issues.

     Like many other scholars, I have been influenced by Fred's work. Every
time I open it, I discover something that the earlier state of my
mind/knowledge was not ready to process on earlier occasions. He was
eclectic and so receptive to new ideas. He was so supportive of younger
scholars. His encouragements meant a world to me.

    Well, Fred, you are gone and have left us so sad. On the other hand,
look what important legacy you have bequeathed all of us with. DARE is only
part of a long litany of accomplishments. I am very grateful and I'll miss
you.

Sali.


**********************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
**********************************************************


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Thu Jun 15 17:28:16 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:28:16 -0400
Subject: patio
In-Reply-To: <852568FF.0059C452.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.132816.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:

> /ae/ is the only way I've EVER heard it. We had one when I was a kid (NYC
> suburbs, 50s). Is the /a/-as-in-father pron from Spanish?

The etymology is via Spanish, so I'd assume so.

I think what could have possibly have happened, and I freely admit this is
only armchair speculation without a single whit of research, is that prior
to WWII, patios were not all that common, and with the rise of suburbia,
postwar, they became far more common. Perhaps pre-war there was some
connection to life in the villa or something, and postwar when you bought
a new tract house it was something that came with. If I were looking into
it further, that's the track I'd start on.

--- Steve K.


From prez234 at JUNO.COM  Fri Jun 16 06:28:46 2000
From: prez234 at JUNO.COM (Joseph McCollum)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 01:28:46 CDT
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.012846.CDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've always said "fortay" -- and to me, the word is borrowed from Latin,
meaning
"a strong point," the neuter nominative of fortis.  Remember the Olympic
motto, "Citius, Altius, Fortius."

Someone else had mentioned "data" -- On the TV show, Star Trek:  The Next
Generation, someone calls Data "Dat-ta" and he immediately corrects him
and he says his name is "Day-ta."  Of course, the classical Latin
pronunciation would be "Dat-ta" but as in "silo" a vowel on the end of an
Anglo-Saxon word can make the previous vowel long, "Day-ta."

So, would I be off the mark in saying that "Day-ta" is singular but
"Dat-ta" is plural?
We have an in-house editor who insists that data is always plural.  I've
always liked the expression:  "If you torture the data enough, it will
confess to anything."  (somehow "they will confess" doesn't carry quite
the same effect).  Then again, maybe it's like "Ham and eggs is my
favorite breakfast."


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Thu Jun 15 17:46:53 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:46:53 -0700
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <20000616.012942.8487.1.prez234@juno.com>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.104653.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I always use data as an uncountable noun, which I think is pretty standard
these days. I think the same is true of ham and eggs, although I would
imagine people who work with food would probably use it as a singular and
plural form as well as an uncountable noun.

I was told to stop pronouncing data as dahta because of the popularization
of dayta in the Next Generation.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
>Of Joseph McCollum
>
>Someone else had mentioned "data" -- On the TV show, Star Trek:  The Next
>Generation, someone calls Data "Dat-ta" and he immediately corrects him
>and he says his name is "Day-ta."  Of course, the classical Latin
>pronunciation would be "Dat-ta" but as in "silo" a vowel on the end of an
>Anglo-Saxon word can make the previous vowel long, "Day-ta."
>
>So, would I be off the mark in saying that "Day-ta" is singular but
>"Dat-ta" is plural?
>We have an in-house editor who insists that data is always plural.  I've
>always liked the expression:  "If you torture the data enough, it will
>confess to anything."  (somehow "they will confess" doesn't carry quite
>the same effect).  Then again, maybe it's like "Ham and eggs is my
>favorite breakfast."


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Jun 15 17:56:42 2000
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:56:42 -0700
Subject: Status
In-Reply-To: <v04011701b56d77a1feb1@[130.132.116.12]>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.105642.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm with Larry. "Potty-o" for patio sounds raw-ther pretentious to me (b.
1943, native speaker of northern Illinois-ese).>

Peter R.

> I (b. 1945) can't recall ever hearing anything OTHER than /ae/ for the
> stressed vowel in "patio" in New York, California, or Wisconsin.  And I'm
> sure I would have registered someone saying what would have been processed
> as "potty-o", with the a-as-in-"father".  Could there in fact have been
> some modicum of taboo avoidance involved in the posited mid-century shift?
>
> Larry
>


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Jun 15 18:07:14 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:07:14 -0700
Subject: patio
In-Reply-To: <852568FF.0059C452.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.110714.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember as a kid in the early 40s in Southern California (where most
houses had a patio) hearing the occasional "potty-o," which stood out
because I mostly heard "patio" (with /ae/).  I don't remember hearing
anything but the latter since then.

Peter Mc.

--On Thu, Jun 15, 2000 12:21 PM -0400 Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:

> "Steve K." <stevek at SHORE.NET> writes:
>
>>>>>>
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>
>> Sort of like hearing people pronounce "patio" with /ae/.
>
> AHD 1, back in the 60s, listed the first pronunciation of patio with
> /ae/ (short a, as in bat). This is also the first form in the latest
> Random House College and MW10...
>
> It appears with a-as-in-father in Kenyon & Knott's Pronouncing Dictionary
> Of American English. (1953, a copyright update of 1944). Websters 2nd has
> a-as-in-father; Webster's 3rd has a-as-in-bat, so there seems to have been
> a shift midcentury.
> <<<<<
>
> /ae/ is the only way I've EVER heard it. We had one when I was a kid (NYC
> suburbs, 50s). Is the /a/-as-in-father pron from Spanish?
>
> -- Mark



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 19:29:55 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:29:55 -0400
Subject: Busker (continued)
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.152955.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from the Carnegie Mellon University library archives.  I leave for Chicago at 8:10 p.m.  I've never been to Madison, Wisconsin--is it easy to get to by train/plane from Chicago on Sunday?

--------------------------------------------------------
JOE BLOW

  The Barry Buchanan papers have "Blow, Joe--see Joe Blow" under Circus (Slang).  I haven't gotten to "J" yet.  Joe Blow's from the circus?

--------------------------------------------------------
BUSKER (continued)

  We had a "busker" discussion a little while back.  It's here in CIRCUS:

busker  Colloquialism for a performance given without admission charge.  A collection is taken up during the performance.  This procedure is never followed, except in the case of a stranded show, which wants to raise enough money for railroad fare to another town, or to get home.  The term is derived from Buskin (which see under Section Theater).

busking  Giving a performance at which a collection is taken up.  Cf. busker.

--------------------------------------------------------
PATIO

  I've got a "patio" somewhere.  At least 1890s.


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Thu Jun 15 19:37:20 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:37:20 -0400
Subject: Chicago ---> Madison
In-Reply-To: <200006151928.PAA15648@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.153720.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It should be pretty easy to get there by Greyhound. It wouldn't be
difficult by plane, but I would imagine that it would be insanely
expensive *and* it's near enough that when you factor in the amount of
time getting to and waiting at O'Hare, you're just as well off taking the
bus.

Per greyhound.com you've got a choice of

6:15 am (4 hours, 10 m)
7:15 am (3 hrs, 40 m)
10:30 am (3 hrs, 50 m)
11:30 am (4 hrs, 10 m)
2:00 pm (3 hrs 45 m)
5:00 pm (4 hrs, 5 m)
7:00 pm (4 hrs 5m)
9:45 pm (2 hrs 50 min!)
9:45 pm (3 hrs 35m)

The fare appears to be $20.50 one-way.

Can't really beat that.


--- Steve K.


From mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Jun 15 22:05:31 2000
From: mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Salikoko Mufwene)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:05:31 -0700
Subject: Chicago ---> Madison
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0006151532440.16936-100000@shell3.shore.net>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.150531.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:37 PM 6/15/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>It should be pretty easy to get there by Greyhound. It wouldn't be
>difficult by plane, but I would imagine that it would be insanely
>expensive *and* it's near enough that when you factor in the amount of
>time getting to and waiting at O'Hare, you're just as well off taking the
>bus.
>
    I must have missed the message to which Steve's is responding. I plan
to drive to Madison on Sunday morning for the memorial service.
Unfortunately, since I should fly to Paris on Monday, I must return to
Chicago right after the reception. If anybody would like a ride from
Chicago, please contact me.

Sali.


**********************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
**********************************************************


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Jun 15 20:37:55 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:37:55 -0500
Subject: Status
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.153755.0500.>

In 20th century American English, a word spelled p-a-t-i-o or v-i-d-e-o would have a
"short vowel" in the first syllable.  How would s-t-u-d-e-o as a neologism be pronounced
nowadays?  Which of the regional variants of American "short o" would be the equivalent of
Spanish /a/ -- California, New York, Chicahgo, Chicawgo, north/east/south/central/west
Texas, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Wisconsin?  Maybe a Chicahgoan's pronunciation of 'patio' with
/a/ would sound sort of OK, but others sound either affected or
intentional-recognition-of-borrowing.  Because of my South Texas background, I have
ambivalent feelings and use the Spanish-like vowel with some people and the American
English pronunciation with others.  Most of the American renderings of the vowel in 'pot'
are rather different from the Spanish vowel.

DMLance


Peter Richardson wrote:

> I'm with Larry. "Potty-o" for patio sounds raw-ther pretentious to me (b.
> 1943, native speaker of northern Illinois-ese).>
>
> Peter R.
>
> > I (b. 1945) can't recall ever hearing anything OTHER than /ae/ for the
> > stressed vowel in "patio" in New York, California, or Wisconsin.  And I'm
> > sure I would have registered someone saying what would have been processed
> > as "potty-o", with the a-as-in-"father".  Could there in fact have been
> > some modicum of taboo avoidance involved in the posited mid-century shift?
> >
> > Larry
> >


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun 15 20:30:47 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:30:47 -0700
Subject: REMEMBERING Fred Cassidy
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.133047.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

a very short addition to the heartfelt appreciations of fred...

along with dwight bolinger, fred was my exemplar of scholarship
united with menschlichkeit and great good humor.  the world is
much less without such people.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 20:41:46 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:41:46 -0400
Subject: ADS t-shirts
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.164146.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I need something to wear.  Is anyone selling those ADS t-shirts?  Can we have a Fred Cassidy ADS t-shirt made up?
   We can copy the obituaries, sign a petition, and write to the U.S. Postal Service for a Fred Cassidy postage stamp.  There might be a ten-year waiting period, though.


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 21:11:40 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:11:40 EDT
Subject: ADS t-shirts
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.171140.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>Can we have a Fred Cassidy ADS t-shirt made up?<<
Excellent suggestion for the T-shirt committee (Dennis Preston, David
Barnhart). - Allan Metcalf


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Thu Jun 15 22:20:12 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:20:12 -0500
Subject: Status
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.172012.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter said:
> I'm with Larry. "Potty-o" for patio sounds raw-ther pretentious to me (b.
> 1943, native speaker of northern Illinois-ese).>

Larry said:
> > I (b. 1945) can't recall ever hearing anything OTHER than /ae/ for the
> > stressed vowel in "patio" in New York, California, or Wisconsin.  And I'm

It appears that there's a consensus among those of us of A Certain Age.
I (b. 1943, native speaker of Mississippi) would have assumed that
anybody saying potty-o was making a joke.
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Jun 15 23:47:42 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:47:42 -0700
Subject: patio
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.164742.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I seem to recall my mother jokingly referring to the patio as a "pah-sho" when
she was trying to parody sophistication.  Other than that, I've never heard
"potty-o" until this discussion.
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Child" by Aardman Animation


From MAVINSON5 at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 16 02:11:33 2000
From: MAVINSON5 at AOL.COM (MAVINSON5 at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:11:33 EDT
Subject: was/were
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.221133.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If rhoticism had not taken place, how would the equivalent of were be spelled
in Old English?  waezon instead of wearon?  Also in Mod. Eng., would it be
spelled weze?  I have seen different books spell were:  waezon,  waeson,
waesun, waezun.

Mark


From MAVINSON5 at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 16 02:57:19 2000
From: MAVINSON5 at AOL.COM (MAVINSON5 at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:57:19 EDT
Subject: taken/takened/dranked/drankened
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.225719.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone know of a good article/book on the nonstandard use of the past
participle for the preterit?

Mark


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Jun 16 03:18:24 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:18:24 -0400
Subject: Fred Cassidy
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.231824.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I first met him about 1967, when he spoke at LSU (I was teaching at the
"other," the "predminantly" university in Baton Rouge). That was the same
year that I met Roger Shuy and also, I think, Wm. Stewart. If it had not
been for them, I would not have gone into Lx.

Later, I visited his shop in Madison - fascinating.

He was scholar, friend, gentle man. I recall a visit he paid to us here in
Knoxville. The second night he was here, several of us went to dinner at
the Hyatt Regency. As we ordered, Fred asked to buy a bottle of wine for
the table. Then he confessed that he had not had dinner the night before.
He had been rerouted (through Memphis, as I recall) and had gotten to
Knoxville so late that he had foregone dinner. Of course, he did not tell
us that the night before.

I wanted to interview for DARE, but my entry into the game was a bit too
late.

Bethany


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Fri Jun 16 06:37:06 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 01:37:06 -0500
Subject: Patio had no /ae/ way back when!
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.013706.0500.>

> Peter said:
> > I'm with Larry. "Potty-o" for patio sounds raw-ther pretentious to me (b.
> > 1943, native speaker of northern Illinois-ese).>
>
> Larry said:
> > > I (b. 1945) can't recall ever hearing anything OTHER than /ae/ for the
> > > stressed vowel in "patio" in New York, California, or Wisconsin.  And I'm

Natalie said:

> It appears that there's a consensus among those of us of A Certain Age.
> I (b. 1943, native speaker of Mississippi) would have assumed that
> anybody saying potty-o was making a joke.

I guess Peggy and I are of Some Uncertain Age.  (Hoobert Heaver was
still President when we were born. I'm from 1931, Peggy from 1932.) Our
basic tendencies in pronunciation come out of strong roots in the
Chicago metropolitan area.  All other things being equal, we tend toward
what Bloomfield called "SAM": Standard Average Midwestern.

Both of us wince when we hear /ae/ in "patio". It just plain sounds
wrong.  In our English, "patio" is a 3-syllable word, and for us the
stressed vowel is the same as the one in "cot" and "hot".  Pretentious?
Nuts -- that was the way we thought everybody learned to pronounce it
back in the 30s.

The way we say "patio" in English is quite different from our
pronunciation of "patio" when we're speaking Spanish.  The variety of
Spanish we find most comfortable is the regional version characteristic
of southeastern Mexico and Guatemala.  In that area, "patio" has two
syllables in ordinary speech, and the final vowel has no offglide.

Peter, maybe it's a good thing you gave your birth year when you said
you're a native speaker of northern Illinois-ese. You were a WW II baby;
Depression babies from the same area grew up speaking a dialect with
major differences from the one you learned a decade later.

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!

P.S.:  Mind you, neither of us can claim to be uncontaminated speakers
of northern Illinois-ese despite having generations of ancestors from
here. The easiest way to demonstrate that is by reference to a list of
dialect markers that Henry Lee Smith had people read aloud on his old
radio show, "Where Are You From?"  Usually, Haxie could come within 50
miles of where someone was raised in
the U.S. after hearing those words pronounced. Most of the time, he
would come a lot closer than that, even pointing to the right
neighborhoods in many cities. In the mid-1950s, his show (and its brief
appearance on TV) was a fading memory, but he still carried a card with
the list in his wallet.

Neither of us could be located definitively by the Haxie's list.  He
said the best he could do with my speech was to put me somewhere between
Ohio and Kansas on the East-West dimension, and somewhere between
mid-Wisconsin and central (or even southern) Missouri going from north
to south.

FWIW, here are some of the features in our speech that were
problematic.  We both regularly distinguish "cot" from "caught", as
might be expected. But Peggy's "on" rhymes with the first syllable of
"awning". My "on" rhymes with the name of our son John. I alternate
between /s/ and /z/ in "greasy"; Peggy usually doesn't.  When we drink
root beer, my "root" rhymes with "boot", but Peggy's "root" rhymes with
"foot". When we talk about what's at the lower end of a plant, however,
"root" rhymes with "foot" for both of us.  In parallel with my "root",
"roof", for both of us, sometimes rhymes with "goof" and sometimes
rhymes with -- hmm.  Funny, I can't think of a rhyme for our alternate
pronunciation! I guess that's a good place to stop.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Fri Jun 16 09:11:16 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 02:11:16 -0700
Subject: Patio : The world from South Texas
In-Reply-To: <200006160400.VAA20701@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.021116.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The word _patio_ is of course from Spanish, and in typical Mediterranean
architecture, designates an open space enclosed _within_ the house. Since
American houses are not constructed this way, typically a cement platform
or apron _behind_ the house has come to have this designation.
        Very informally, I would guess that in most of the area from San
Antonio southward in Texas, _patio_ is pronounced only with /a/. I grew up
with that as the only pronunciation, and was quite startled when I went to
California in 1954 and discovered that this newly-popular aspect of
American architecture was pronounced with /ae/. My intuitive reaction was
and is that the pronunciation with /ae/ sounds offensive, like so many
other distortions of Spanish borrowings prevalent in California (as
/piydrow/ for _Pedro_ in _San Pedro_). Developers probably spread the
American-adapted architectural form from there, along with the Anglicized
pronunciation. Unlike my good friend Don, I can't bring myself to use the
/ae/ even around others who are using it.
        I'm a /deyt@/ user myself, but my mother told me this came up on
"Who Wants to Be a Millionnaire" tonight, and the "correct" answer was
given as /deyt@/, whereas she said she uses /daet@/, much to my surprise.
There's a local software company here in Tucson which calls itself Beta
Data. I've heard the /ae/ so rarely that it must be a declining minority
usage (in the US, not Britain).

        Rudy


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Fri Jun 16 10:42:55 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 06:42:55 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.064255.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph McCollum <prez234 at JUNO.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 15, 2000 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: Accents in Am. English


>So, would I be off the mark in saying that "Day-ta" is singular but
>"Dat-ta" is plural?
>We have an in-house editor who insists that data is always plural.  I've
>always liked the expression:  "If you torture the data enough, it will
>confess to anything."  (somehow "they will confess" doesn't carry quite
>the same effect).  Then again, maybe it's like "Ham and eggs is my
>favorite breakfast."

I was taught that the singular is datum (I use a short a), plural data, and
I use a short a almost exclusively when it's alone and a long a in at least
one compound, database.

bkd


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Fri Jun 16 11:01:29 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 07:01:29 -0400
Subject: Status
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.070129.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Richardson <prichard at LINFIELD.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 15, 2000 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: Status


>I'm with Larry. "Potty-o" for patio sounds raw-ther pretentious to me (b.
>1943, native speaker of northern Illinois-ese).>
>
>> I (b. 1945) can't recall ever hearing anything OTHER than /ae/ for the
>> stressed vowel in "patio" in New York, California, or Wisconsin.  And I'm
>> sure I would have registered someone saying what would have been
processed
>> as "potty-o", with the a-as-in-"father".  Could there in fact have been
>> some modicum of taboo avoidance involved in the posited mid-century
shift?


I'm saying "potty-o" to myself, and all I can think of is Mr. Howell and
Luvvy on Gilligan's Island...

bkd


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Jun 16 11:44:54 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 07:44:54 -0400
Subject: ADS t-shirts
In-Reply-To: <200006152041.QAA31994@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.074454.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

A few old shirts are left (a very few Grandgents, a few Pounds; specify
which you want in your order). XL only (your size) left. Send $20.00
(shipping and handling included) to

Lori Dowdy
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Wells 614 A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027

and one will wing your way (if they are not all gone).

Our plan is to feature Lorenzo Dow Turner this next year, but you can bet
that with Fred's passing he will come onto our list.

Of course, if you come to ADS meetings these pieces of sartorial elegance
are only $15.00.

dInIs


>   I need something to wear.  Is anyone selling those ADS t-shirts?  Can
>we have a Fred Cassidy ADS t-shirt made up?
>   We can copy the obituaries, sign a petition, and write to the U.S.
>Postal Service for a Fred Cassidy postage stamp.  There might be a
>ten-year waiting period, though.


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Fri Jun 16 14:34:10 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:34:10 +0100
Subject: Data
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPX.4.21.0006160144460.24648-100000@pavo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.153410.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>         I'm a /deyt@/ user myself, but my mother told me this came up on
>"Who Wants to Be a Millionnaire" tonight, and the "correct" answer was
>given as /deyt@/, whereas she said she uses /daet@/, much to my surprise.

Being a pedant, I use /daet@/ because this is what I was told it is in Latin.

If there is variation in the word, can there be a "correct"
pronunciation, even if one has prescriptivist tendencies?  Or is this
just another problem with "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire"?



>There's a local software company here in Tucson which calls itself Beta
>Data. I've heard the /ae/ so rarely that it must be a declining minority
>usage (in the US, not Britain).

I can't take an informal survey.  Everybody I know has been
influenced (contaminated?) by Star Trek.

--Aaron
--
________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

  "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 16 15:00:04 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:00:04 -0400
Subject: Euro salad sandwiches; Rodizio
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.110004.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from the Harold Washington Library Center in downtown Chicago, Illinois.
   If there are Fred Cassidy T-shirts, there should be a premium to buy one (say $100), with the money going to DARE.
   Although there is a waiting period after the death of a person for U.S. postage stamp issues (Elvis had to wait), it's a good idea to quickly start the process.  I don't know if the U.S. Postal Service will consider a similar thing to what they did with their Breast Cancer stamp (with proceeds going to that cause), but you can always try.

--------------------------------------------------------
EURO SALAD SANDWICHES

   In the PITTSBURGH FOOD GUIDE, Zorba's menu lists "NEW Euro Salad...6.03."
   At Treat Street at the airport, I noticed "Euro Sandwiches."  They came in tuna salad, chicken salad, and egg salad.  They are "salad mix with lettuce and tomato on whole wheat bread."
   I didn't notice "Euro Sandwiches" in New York City, nor in Europe.  I haven't checked Nexis.
   The Euro has taken a beating against the dollar, but still...

--------------------------------------------------------
RODIZIO

  On page 3 of the PITTSBURGH FOOD GUIDE is an article, "The Green Forest: Pittsburgh Embraces Brazilian Style."  An advertisement for the Green Forest Brazilian Restaurant and Lounge (Brazilian Churrascaria) is conveniently on the same page.
  The article mentions "rodizio" service.  The ad states: "You will enjoy our traditional Rodizio, a Carrousel of all you can eat mouth watering meats to suit the taste of just about everyone, prepared and barbecued just the way we do in our native country, Brazil."
  I haven't yet checked OED, Barnhart, Nexis to see if it's entered into English.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Jun 16 15:12:34 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:12:34 -0400
Subject: Data
In-Reply-To: <a04320407b56fea128fff@[129.215.108.77]>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.111234.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Aaron,

Although I'm not a big fan of pop culture influences on the really
important stuff of language, individual shows may have been the death (or
awakening) knell for the rendition of some lexical items. I don't doubt the
Mr. Data influence of Star Trek on "data," and us older folks will surely
remember that our "Your-Anus" joke days (for the planet) werre over after
Carl Sagan (on "Cosmos") taught us to say "Urinous," and by then we were
too old to make pee-pee jokes.

dInIs


>>
>>         I'm a /deyt@/ user myself, but my mother told me this came up on
>>"Who Wants to Be a Millionnaire" tonight, and the "correct" answer was
>>given as /deyt@/, whereas she said she uses /daet@/, much to my surprise.
>
>Being a pedant, I use /daet@/ because this is what I was told it is in Latin.
>
>If there is variation in the word, can there be a "correct"
>pronunciation, even if one has prescriptivist tendencies?  Or is this
>just another problem with "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire"?
>
>
>
>>There's a local software company here in Tucson which calls itself Beta
>>Data. I've heard the /ae/ so rarely that it must be a declining minority
>>usage (in the US, not Britain).
>
>I can't take an informal survey.  Everybody I know has been
>influenced (contaminated?) by Star Trek.
>
>--Aaron
>--
>________________________________________________________________________
>Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
>http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
>aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics
>
>  "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
>        --Death


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From vneufeldt at M-W.COM  Fri Jun 16 15:51:48 2000
From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:51:48 -0400
Subject: Data
In-Reply-To: <a04320407b56fea128fff@[129.215.108.77]>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.115148.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I believe that the speech community as a whole (i.e. not linguists, etc.)
can accept the existence of more than one "correct" pronunciation more
readily than more than one "correct" spelling.  If two pronunciations for
'data', for instance, are recognized in mainstream general dictionaries,
people will accept them both, even while preferring to stick with the one
that is more common within the group with which they are or wish to be
identified.  This is especially true if the difference is easily
describable, e.g. as geographical or generational.

Victoria
Merriam-Webster, Inc. P.O. Box 281
Springfield, MA 01102
Tel: 413-734-3134  ext 124
Fax: 413-827-7262


On June 16, 2000, Aaron E. Drews wrote:

> Being a pedant, I use /daet@/ because this is what I was told it
> is in Latin.
>
> If there is variation in the word, can there be a "correct"
> pronunciation, even if one has prescriptivist tendencies?  Or is this
> just another problem with "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire"?


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 16 16:21:55 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:21:55 -0400
Subject: Data
In-Reply-To: <000201bfd7aa$c7f99ce0$282b62ce@vneufeldt.m-w.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.122155.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Besides /daet@/ and /deyt@/, there's the less frequent /daht@/ (rhyming
with "lotta", "what a", or "terracotta"), which my wife, a non-Trekkie and
non-techie, uses.  I imagine that it may actually be closer to the original
Latin than /daeta/ is, although that's not why she uses it.

larry


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Jun 16 16:22:22 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:22:22 -0400
Subject: Data
In-Reply-To: <v04011700b57003a04aee@[130.132.245.229]>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.122222.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry,

I was bout to point out that my Latin would produce "data" (rhymes with
"crocka"), but I figgered my Hillbilly Latin might not be trusted. Now
we've got your word on it.

dInIs

>Besides /daet@/ and /deyt@/, there's the less frequent /daht@/ (rhyming
>with "lotta", "what a", or "terracotta"), which my wife, a non-Trekkie and
>non-techie, uses.  I imagine that it may actually be closer to the original
>Latin than /daeta/ is, although that's not why she uses it.
>
>larry


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 16 16:22:56 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:22:56 EDT
Subject: Barry Popik t-shirts
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.122256.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think what we need is a Barry tee-shirt with a picture of a Big Apple and
the slogan "Windy City." (Not that I think Barry is overly loquacious.)


In a message dated 6/15/2000 3:41:57 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

<<    I need something to wear.  Is anyone selling those ADS t-shirts?  Can
we have a Fred Cassidy ADS t-shirt made up?
   We can copy the obituaries, sign a petition, and write to the U.S. Postal
Service for a Fred Cassidy postage stamp.  There might be a ten-year waiting
period, though. >>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 16 16:29:28 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:29:28 -0400
Subject: Gyros (1968)
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.122928.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From THE WFMT GUIDE (CHICAGO GUIDE in 1971, CHICAGO from 1975), December 1968, pg. 40, col. 2:

THE PARTHENON--314 S. Halsted.  Greek.  A good deal of seafood (including squid and octopus), over a dozen lamb dishes including gyros: spit-roasted slices of beef and lamb with onion and parsley.  The usual Greek wines and liquors plus beer by glass and pitcher.  Large room with efficient service.  Greek music on records.  Daily 11-2 am. Child. 726-2407.

   OK, back to work on project two...


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Fri Jun 16 16:47:39 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:47:39 -0400
Subject: Gyros (1968)
In-Reply-To: <200006161629.MAA39590@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.124739.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    From THE WFMT GUIDE (CHICAGO GUIDE in 1971, CHICAGO from 1975), December 1968, pg. 40, col. 2:
>
> THE PARTHENON--314 S. Halsted.  Greek.

Kostas Kazazis of the linguistics department at U of C always said that if
you were in Chicago and wanted good Greek food to go to a Turkish
restaurant. :) I've eaten in Greektown exactly twice, and I'm convinced
it's a tourist trap, because one meal was inedible and the other one was
so-so.

Of course, this doesn't make citations about them any less relevant, just
thought I'd share in case you got hungry.

I miss Chicago gyros where they cut the lamb in strips off a spit. Here in
Boston, the only gyros I've had, they take  a package of frozen precut
strips out of the freezer and throw them on the grill; they are to real
gyros what Pringles are to potato chips.


--- Steve K.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Jun 16 16:49:03 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:49:03 -0700
Subject: Patio : The world from South Texas
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.094903.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>
>         Very informally, I would guess that in most of the area from San
> Antonio southward in Texas, _patio_ is pronounced only with /a/. I grew up
> with that as the only pronunciation, and was quite startled when I went to
> California in 1954 and discovered that this newly-popular aspect of
> American architecture was pronounced with /ae/. My intuitive reaction was
> and is that the pronunciation with /ae/ sounds offensive, like so many
> other distortions of Spanish borrowings prevalent in California (as
> /piydrow/ for _Pedro_ in _San Pedro_). Developers probably spread the
> American-adapted architectural form from there, along with the Anglicized
> pronunciation. Unlike my good friend Don, I can't bring myself to use the
> /ae/ even around others who are using it.

You can leave Houston out of that equation, as least the southwest sector.
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Child" by Aardman Animation


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Jun 16 17:02:14 2000
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:02:14 -0700
Subject: Patio had no /ae/ way back when!
In-Reply-To: <3949CB12.575943A1@corn.cso.niu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.100214.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mike said:>
> Peter, maybe it's a good thing you gave your birth year when you said
> you're a native speaker of northern Illinois-ese. You were a WW II baby;
> Depression babies from the same area grew up speaking a dialect with
> major differences from the one you learned a decade later.

Comment much appreciated, Mike. It's essential, of course, to attach a
generation to these assertions of "nativeness." The disappearance of the
aspirated bilabial in "which" (scientific generation label: young
whippersnapper) is persuasive, as are many other features remarked on
these very screens over the past few months. I certainly recognize the
features you remark as native northern Illinois-ese, but my generation
waded in with its own version, as do generations everywhere. When we
assert certain dialect characteristics in the classroom, the age of the
speaker can't be disregarded.

I like your root/root distinction: the beer vs. the plant part; I'd
forgotten that one.

> between /s/ and /z/ in "greasy"; Peggy usually doesn't.  When we drink
> root beer, my "root" rhymes with "boot", but Peggy's "root" rhymes with
> "foot". When we talk about what's at the lower end of a plant, however,
> "root" rhymes with "foot" for both of us.  In parallel with my "root",
> "roof", for both of us, sometimes rhymes with "goof" and sometimes
> rhymes with -- hmm.  Funny, I can't think of a rhyme for our alternate
> pronunciation! I guess that's a good place to stop.
Hoof, maybe? Then we get into its plural, and the roofs/rooves
problem. Ah, summer...

Peter>


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Jun 16 17:18:45 2000
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:18:45 -0700
Subject: Data
In-Reply-To: <l03130302b5700473dd04@[35.9.12.82]>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.101845.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry and dInIs and Larry's wife and all the rest are on the
money. Data appears to be the neuter plural of the past participle of
_dare_ 'to give'--meaning 'things given' or, as we used to milk it for all
it was worth back in high-school Latin, 'having-been-given things'. The
singular was -datum- (rhymes with "got 'em"), but no one cared to talk
about that.  On the other hand, U.S. and sentence geography could change
that pronunciation radically. Did anyone at Boston Latin School say
"dater" with hiatus-r, as in "These dater are screwy"?

Peter

On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> Larry,
>
> I was bout to point out that my Latin would produce "data" (rhymes with
> "crocka"), but I figgered my Hillbilly Latin might not be trusted. Now
> we've got your word on it.
>
> dInIs
>
> >Besides /daet@/ and /deyt@/, there's the less frequent /daht@/ (rhyming
> >with "lotta", "what a", or "terracotta"), which my wife, a non-Trekkie and
> >non-techie, uses.  I imagine that it may actually be closer to the original
> >Latin than /daeta/ is, although that's not why she uses it.
> >
> >larry
>
>
> Dennis R. Preston
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
> preston at pilot.msu.edu
> Office: (517)353-0740
> Fax: (517)432-2736
>


From gibbens at EROLS.COM  Fri Jun 16 17:46:47 2000
From: gibbens at EROLS.COM (Elizabeth Gibbens)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:46:47 -0400
Subject: Barry Popik t-shirts
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.134647.0400.GIBBENS@EROLS.COM>

Here, Here! I'm in line to buy one.

Elizabeth


----- Original Message -----
From: <RonButters at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 12:22 PM
Subject: Barry Popik t-shirts


> I think what we need is a Barry tee-shirt with a picture of a Big Apple
and
> the slogan "Windy City." (Not that I think Barry is overly loquacious.)
>
>
> In a message dated 6/15/2000 3:41:57 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:
>
> <<    I need something to wear.  Is anyone selling those ADS t-shirts?
Can
> we have a Fred Cassidy ADS t-shirt made up?
>    We can copy the obituaries, sign a petition, and write to the U.S.
Postal
> Service for a Fred Cassidy postage stamp.  There might be a ten-year
waiting
> period, though. >>


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jun 16 17:59:52 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:59:52 -0700
Subject: Patio : The world from South Texas
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.105952.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

first, my own linguistic history re PATIO: born 1940, raised in
eastern pennsylvania, heard and used only [ae] in the word, except
from one family who used [a], and were widely mocked for their
pretentiousness in this (and some other linguistic matters).

now, there are several countervailing tendencies here.  on the one
hand, in the early stages of borrowing, when the use of a word is
associated with its language of origin, there's a tendency to preserve
as much of the phonetics of the original as possible.  even later,
some speakers will want to preserve this pronunciation, on the grounds
that it's the "original", hence the "correct", one.

on the other hand, once the borrowing becomes felt to be merely just
another word in the borrowing language, there's a tendency to nativize
it fully; if english is the borrowing language, nativizing often
includes using the default spelling-to-sound relationships.  in
addition, some speakers will want to avoid the non-nativized
pronunciation, on the grounds that it's "foreign"; this tendency is
especially strong for speakers who want to dissociate themselves from
the culture of origin (many anglos in nevada have invariable [ae] in
their state's name, specifically because [a] would sound "mexican"),
or to mark solidarity with their own culture (the english are famous
for reproducing french loan words inaccurately; actually sounding
french would be, well, un-english), or to protect themselves from
accusations of pretentiousness (i assume that the latinate [a]
pronunciation for DATA has failed to spread, while the nativized [ae]
and [e] compete with one another, for just this reason).

the result is often variation.  not always: as far as i know, english
speakers invariably pronounce SAN and SANTA, in place names, with
nativized [ae], never with the spanish original [a].  but sometimes.

different speakers will use different variants; they'll use the one
they first heard, from people they identify with, or they'll shift
completely to another variant, for one or another of the reasons
above.  sometimes there's variation within individuals; i've heard
young coloradans shift back and forth, in a single conversation,
between [a] and [ae] pronunciations of their state's name.  as i do
between [i] and [E] versions of ECONOMICS.  such shifts might be
triggered by the choices of other participants in a conversation
(which a speaker might accommodate to, or resist), by the vowels in
other words in the context of the word COLORADO, by subtle shifts in
the speaker's sociocultural identifications, by changes in the topic,
or of course by sunspots.

i'd imagine most of the folks on this mailing list know all this
already, but nobody actually said it, so i thought it might be
useful for me to make it explicit.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Jun 16 18:12:39 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:12:39 -0400
Subject: Barry Popik t-shirts
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.141239.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The policy of the committee was that in order to be t-shirted one had
to be dead.

Regards,
David (the other member of the t-shirt committee)


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Jun 16 18:17:22 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:17:22 -0400
Subject: Data
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000616101016.16412G-100000@calvin.linfield. edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.141722.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Recall that in "American Tongues" a computerese-talking guy (from NY?
Boston?) warns about erasing "the dater on the plater"--with linking
/r/.  (But what the heck is a plater?)

At 10:18 AM 6/16/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Larry and dInIs and Larry's wife and all the rest are on the
>money. Data appears to be the neuter plural of the past participle of
>_dare_ 'to give'--meaning 'things given' or, as we used to milk it for all
>it was worth back in high-school Latin, 'having-been-given things'. The
>singular was -datum- (rhymes with "got 'em"), but no one cared to talk
>about that.  On the other hand, U.S. and sentence geography could change
>that pronunciation radically. Did anyone at Boston Latin School say
>"dater" with hiatus-r, as in "These dater are screwy"?
>
>Peter
>
>On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
> > Larry,
> >
> > I was bout to point out that my Latin would produce "data" (rhymes with
> > "crocka"), but I figgered my Hillbilly Latin might not be trusted. Now
> > we've got your word on it.
> >
> > dInIs
> >
> > >Besides /daet@/ and /deyt@/, there's the less frequent /daht@/ (rhyming
> > >with "lotta", "what a", or "terracotta"), which my wife, a non-Trekkie and
> > >non-techie, uses.  I imagine that it may actually be closer to the
> original
> > >Latin than /daeta/ is, although that's not why she uses it.
> > >
> > >larry
> >
> >
> > Dennis R. Preston
> > Department of Linguistics and Languages
> > Michigan State University
> > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
> > preston at pilot.msu.edu
> > Office: (517)353-0740
> > Fax: (517)432-2736
> >


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Jun 16 18:20:17 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:20:17 -0400
Subject: forte (was: Re: Accents in Am. English)
In-Reply-To: <71.40a3465.267987d5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.142017.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 09:13 PM 6/14/00 -0400, you wrote:
>I'd recommend using the accent marks in words like cafe, protege, soufle, and
>fiance where it indicates that the final 'e' is to be pronounced as in French
>(IPA /e/), and it otherwise looks like a silent e.  But in cases  like the
>first 'e' of elite where nearly everyone in the USA uses epsilon, or schwa
>there's no point in using the accent mark (I would have said absolutely
>everyone, but two days ago I heard a colleague pronouncing it /'e lit/-- it
>took me a minute or two to figure out what he meant).  Similarly 'resume'
>needs an accent on the final 'e', but none on the first 'e' because the first
>is epsilon, the second /e/ for nearly everyone-- again I have encountered the
>rare pronunciation of the first vowel as /e/-- but it sounds bizarre.
>Curriculum vitae, by the way should be pronounced to rhyme with 'mighty' if
>the normal rules of anglicization of Latin were to be followed, but I think
>most people use the 'restored Latin' pronunciation /'vi tei/.   But no one
>says /ku rIk u lum/... consistency is not our forte (which you almost have to
>pronounce /for te/ or everyone will THINK you're  ignorant.
>
>Dale Coye
>The College of NJ

Quite right.  I said /fort/ once and was "corrected" most
condescendingly.  So now I never use the word.


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 16 19:33:01 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:33:01 -0400
Subject: Social Climbers (Philadelphia, 1885) (continued)
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.153301.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   About a year ago, William Safire stated in his column that his Syracuse University professor had coined the term "social climber."
   I instantly found an earlier hit on JSTOR, and Fred Shapiro found an even earlier citation and posted it here.  (The New York Times "On Language" column was never corrected.)  I haven't checked both MOA databases.
   A really nice article turned up just now in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, 6 September 1885, pg. 14, col. 5:

   _SWELLS AND CLIMBERS._
_A Disquisition on Certain Elements Found in Philadelphia Society._
_The Long and Arduous Struggle of the Parvenu Rich to Secure Social Position._
(...)
   _THE "CLIMBERS."
   Way beyond these is a drove of rich people who haven't had wealth long enough to make themselves felt, but who, nevertheless, are burning with a desire to get into "society"--to mingle with a set, who, when you know them are, notwithstanding all their pretensions, as commonplace as beeswax.  These people are coolly denominated by the swells as the "climbers"; that is to say, people whose aim in life is to mount the social ladder.

   Back to work...


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Fri Jun 16 19:55:46 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:55:46 +0100
Subject: "on Language"
In-Reply-To: <200006161932.PAA08784@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.205546.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>    About a year ago, William Safire stated in his column that his
>Syracuse University professor had coined the term "social climber."
>    I instantly found an earlier hit on JSTOR, and Fred Shapiro found
>an even earlier citation and posted it here.  (The New York Times
>"On Language" column was never corrected.)


What day of the week is On Language printed.  I no longer get the
print version of the IHT and I don't know if I can read the feature
columns on-line, but it would help if I knew which day of the week's
archive to sift through (I vaguely remember that it's the same in the
IHT and the NYT).

Thanks!

Aaron
--
________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

  "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death


From funex79 at SLONET.ORG  Fri Jun 16 20:01:06 2000
From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:01:06 -0700
Subject: "on Language"
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.130106.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

safire's in the sunday new york time magazine section which is on the web.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron E. Drews" <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 12:55 PM
Subject: "on Language"


> >    About a year ago, William Safire stated in his column that his
> >Syracuse University professor had coined the term "social climber."
> >    I instantly found an earlier hit on JSTOR, and Fred Shapiro found
> >an even earlier citation and posted it here.  (The New York Times
> >"On Language" column was never corrected.)
>
>
> What day of the week is On Language printed.  I no longer get the
> print version of the IHT and I don't know if I can read the feature
> columns on-line, but it would help if I knew which day of the week's
> archive to sift through (I vaguely remember that it's the same in the
> IHT and the NYT).
>
> Thanks!
>
> Aaron
> --
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
> http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
> aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics
>
>   "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
>         --Death
>


From paulfrank at WANADOO.FR  Fri Jun 16 20:42:03 2000
From: paulfrank at WANADOO.FR (Paul Frank)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:42:03 +0200
Subject: "on Language"
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.224203.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> What day of the week is On Language printed.  I no longer get the
> print version of the IHT and I don't know if I can read the feature
> columns on-line, but it would help if I knew which day of the week's
> archive to sift through (I vaguely remember that it's the same in the
> IHT and the NYT).
> Aaron

In the International Herald Tribune it's on Monday and in the New York Times
it's, I think, on Sunday. I get the paper version of the IHT, but unless I'm
mistaken the online versions of the IHT and the NYT do not carry Safire's
Language column.

Paul
________________________________________
Paul Frank
Business, financial and legal translation
>From German, French, Chinese, Spanish,
Italian, Dutch and Portuguese into English
paulfrank at wanadoo.fr  - 74500 Thollon, France


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Jun 16 20:56:49 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:56:49 -0400
Subject: Barry Popik t-shirts
In-Reply-To: <msg49714.thr-1934359.d8d2f@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.165649.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Barnhart wrote:

>The policy of the committee was that in order to be t-shirted one had
>to be dead.

Once in high school, I read a series of books (well, two at least) called,
chronologically, _Dead Ned_ and _Live and Kicking Ned_ (or words to that
effect).

Perhaps we could have three categories of t-shirts in the future: Dead
t-shirts, live and kicking t-shirts - and maybe a middle category,
over-the-hill t-shirts. (My church has a Dead Choir - singers who sing
only at funeralx).

Did anyone else read those beooks? They involved a miscreant (or assumed
miscreant) who escaped death by hanging. I've forgotten the details about
how he got off the gallows.

Bethany


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Jun 16 21:32:21 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:32:21 -0400
Subject: forte (was: Re: Accents in Am. English)
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000616141906.00bdd330@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.173221.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

>>says /ku rIk u lum/... consistency is not our forte (which you almost have to
>>pronounce /for te/ or everyone will THINK you're  ignorant.
>
>Quite right.  I said /fort/ once and was "corrected" most
>condescendingly.  So now I never use the word.

I ALWAYS say /fort/, but I am careful to say aferwards, "a word that
almost no one pronounces correctly anymore." I don't mind being thought
ignorant, but I sure don't want to miss an opportunity to give a Lx
101 lecture. (I usually get it.) (When I hear /fortay/ I think music.)

Bethany


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Jun 16 21:38:42 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:38:42 -0400
Subject: "on Language"
In-Reply-To: <007b01bfd7d3$667554e0$9f05f9c1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.173842.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Paul Frank wrote:

>In the International Herald Tribune it's on Monday and in the New York Times
>it's, I think, on Sunday. I get the paper version of the IHT, but unless I'm
>mistaken the online versions of the IHT and the NYT do not carry Safire's
>Language column.

The web version of the Sunday NYTimes carries the column. Check the mag.

Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 16 23:17:05 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:17:05 EDT
Subject: Misfit; "Chawing his ear"
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.191705.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MISFIT

   I just received an e-mail that the online OED has corrected about a
thousand "M" entries.
   More--
   From the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, 9 September 1885, pg. 4, col. 5:

   In Newport (R.I.--ed.) slang a misfit wife is one who has found herself so
mismated that she has had to part from her husband.  Newporters no longer
speak of grass widows or divorced persons, but always of misfits.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CHAWING HIS EAR

   "CHAWING HIS EAR" is the caption beneath the illustration in the CHICAGO
TRIBUNE, 6 September 1885, pg. 8, col. 1.  I didn't find the expression in
the online OED.
   The article states:

   ...and in the vernacular of the trade proceeds to "chaw the ear" of his
seat mate.  This "chawing the ear" is not, as one would suppose, an act of
mayhem, though oftentimes it would be better for the victim if it were, but
merely consists in a zealous attempt to make a sale.

   Time for a Chicago pizza.


From feste at KEYSTONENET.COM  Fri Jun 16 23:16:15 2000
From: feste at KEYSTONENET.COM (Pat Pflieger)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:16:15 -0400
Subject: "gay old time" and gender
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.191615.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm annotating some 19th-century letters and have come upon an etymology
problem I hope someone can help me solve.

Many of the letter-writers were American teenagers, subscribers to a
magazine which printed their letters.  In 1861, a girl living in Albany,
New York, wrote about what "a gay old time" she and her friends had,
skating on the local pond.  This was immediately challenged by a boy, who
accused her of being a male subscriber writing under a female pseudonym.
(It's a long story.  Trust me.)  His evidence was the phrase "gay old
time":  she had, he pointed out, "[let] fall an expression which no
cultivated and traveled young lady, in fact, no woman at all, would ever
use, but one common in the mouths of boys and young men--'a gay old time.'"

I haven't been able to track the history of the phrase "gay old time", let
alone its gender-specific uses.  I've checked the OED, Mathews' _Dictionary
of Americanisms_, Cassidy's _Dictionary of American English_, & Lighter's
_Dictionary of American Slang_.  I've also run it through Internet search
engines, but you can imagine the results.

Can anyone point me toward a source that might help me discuss the phrase?

Pat Pflieger
feste at keystonenet.com


From paulfrank at WANADOO.FR  Sat Jun 17 06:31:27 2000
From: paulfrank at WANADOO.FR (Paul Frank)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:31:27 +0200
Subject: "on Language"
Message-ID: <SAT.17.JUN.2000.083127.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Paul Frank wrote:
>>In the International Herald Tribune it's on Monday and in the New York
Times
> >it's, I think, on Sunday. I get the paper version of the IHT, but unless
I'm
> >mistaken the online versions of the IHT and the NYT do not carry Safire's
> >Language column.
>
> The web version of the Sunday NYTimes carries the column. Check the mag.
> Bethany

Glad to see I was mistaken. The reason I was mistaken was because I once
looked for Safire's language column in the online version of the New York
Times but not in that of the Sunday New York Times. (Don't you hate it when
people tell you that "the reason...is because" is a solecism?)

Paul
________________________________________
Paul Frank
Business, financial and legal translation
>From German, French, Chinese, Spanish,
Italian, Dutch and Portuguese into English
paulfrank at wanadoo.fr  - 74500 Thollon, France


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 17 13:24:15 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:24:15 -0400
Subject: Social Climbers (Philadelphia, 1885) (continued)
In-Reply-To: <200006161932.PAA08784@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.17.JUN.2000.092415.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't see the term "social climber" anywhere in this passage.  The term
"climber" does not seem really different from the figurative application
of OED sense 1., which is attested in 1833, even arguably in Shakespeare.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 17 14:20:12 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:20:12 EDT
Subject: "gay old time" and gender
Message-ID: <SAT.17.JUN.2000.102012.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fascinating!

If you look closely at Lighter and other slang dictionaries, you will see
that the earliest American slang usages for GAY meant 'impudent'; there is a
short story by Sherwood Anderson called "I'm a Fool"--a first-person story
narrated by a working-class young man--that uses the term in that way.
Although GAY in "gay old time" doesn't mean 'impudent', and though Anderson's
story comes some 60 years after yours, the repeated use of the term by the
vulgar young man suggests to me that this was in itself a rather "low" usage.

Aside from that, I know of no other connection between GAY as used in America
in a phrase such as "gay old time" that would suggest the phrase (or the
word) were considered vulgar. Was Cornielia Otis Skinner the author of OUR
HEARTS WERE YOUNG AND GAY? That is an association with non-working-class
females of the earlier 20th century.

In short, I know of no source that makes such a distinction as you found.
Just brain-storming, I suppose it might be possible to find a 19th century
etiquette book that lists vulgar phrases; I doubt that dictionaries of the
period would be much help. You may just have found some new evidence for the
historical usage of the term GAY--perhaps worth a brief Miscellany piece in
AMERICAN SPEECH or COMMENTES ON ETYMOLOGY. Of course, it is possible that the
young man who challenged the expression had some sort of prescriptivist
idiosuncracyk with respect to the phrase in question.


In a message dated 6/16/2000 6:27:36 PM, feste at KEYSTONENET.COM writes:

<< I'm annotating some 19th-century letters and have come upon an etymology
problem I hope someone can help me solve.

Many of the letter-writers were American teenagers, subscribers to a
magazine which printed their letters.  In 1861, a girl living in Albany,
New York, wrote about what "a gay old time" she and her friends had,
skating on the local pond.  This was immediately challenged by a boy, who
accused her of being a male subscriber writing under a female pseudonym.
(It's a long story.  Trust me.)  His evidence was the phrase "gay old
time":  she had, he pointed out, "[let] fall an expression which no
cultivated and traveled young lady, in fact, no woman at all, would ever
use, but one common in the mouths of boys and young men--'a gay old time.'"

I haven't been able to track the history of the phrase "gay old time", let
alone its gender-specific uses.  I've checked the OED, Mathews' _Dictionary
of Americanisms_, Cassidy's _Dictionary of American English_, & Lighter's
_Dictionary of American Slang_.  I've also run it through Internet search
engines, but you can imagine the results.

Can anyone point me toward a source that might help me discuss the phrase?

Pat Pflieger
feste at keystonenet.com >>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 17 14:44:37 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:44:37 -0400
Subject: Robert McCormick on A&E's Biografy
Message-ID: <SAT.17.JUN.2000.104437.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Colonel Robert McCormick of the Chicago Tribune is on tonight's A&E BIOGRAPHY (Biografy?) at 11 p.m., but check local listings.
   "Muscle hussy" is used in a female bodybuilder story in this weekend's FINANCIAL TIMES.
   I knew that Fred Shapiro would raise that objection to "social climber."  The entire article must be read, along with some Philadelphia history texts.  When the PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER puts its back issues online, I have no doubt that we'll find "social climber" citations for Philadelphia from the 1880s-1890s.  "Climber" was in quotes, very conspicuously placed in a header, and it was used many times in the article.  I think it's a significant citation.
   I've told the Chicago Cubs that I refuse to be traded for Sammy Sosa.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 18 02:44:54 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:44:54 -0400
Subject: Swiss Enchiladas
Message-ID: <SAT.17.JUN.2000.224454.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Chicago--a city I've enjoyed so much, I'm staying an extra day!
   I looked a the Chicago Tribune, Chicago Daily News, Chicago Herald-Examiner, Chicago Evening Post, Chicago Daily Journal, and Chicago American for December 1927.  Perhaps Walter Winchell's column was syndicated and appeared in Chicago in 1927, but I sure didn't find it.  So much for that W.W. "Bloody Mary" column.

--------------------------------------------------------
ROBERT McCORMICK

   Tonight's A&E Biography of the Chicago Tribune's Robert McCormick glossed over much.  Only at the very end did Harry Smith announce that McCormick also owned WGN--and "World's Greatest Newspaper" was never explained!
   The paper itself was hardly mentioned.  You'd never know that Bert L. Taylor's "Line o' Type" was the first "colyumn."  You'd also never know about the Tribune's strange spelling ideas--which actually began with Joseph Medill.

--------------------------------------------------------
MARGHERITA PIZZA

   Jesse Sheidlower wanted "Margherita," and I gave him something off the top of my head.  I looked at the food books in the Chicago Public Library, and this is from PIZZA, ANY WAY YOU SLICE IT (1998), by Charles and Michele Scicolone, pg. 45:

   Records dating to forty years before the queen's tasting indicate that pizza with mozzarella, tomato, and basil was eaten in Naples long before she tried it.  At any rate, Queen Margherita loved Esposito's three pizzas, especially the mozzarella version, so Raffaele named the pizza in her honor.
   Raffaele's pizzeria still exists, though now it is called Pizzeria Brandi.  On the wall is proudly displayed the letter dated June 11, 1889, that he received from the Royal House declaring his pizzas _buonissime_--the best!

--------------------------------------------------------
SWISS ENCHILADAS

  Way back in November 1999, I was in Mexico and wrote about Swiss Enchiladas.  This is from TRYPINGPANS WEST (1969) by Sam Arnold, pg. 9:

   Here is a recipe for an easy-to-make SWISS ENCHILADA.  It's called Swiss because it has dairy products in it.  Many foods in Mexico get the name Swiss becausethey have cheese and milk in them, but the similarity ends there.
Corn tortillas
1 cooked chicken or lobster or shrimp
onion
green chile strips, 5-6
Monterey Jack cheese
longhorn cheese
1/2 sour cream
2 cups miolk or cream
salt
oregano
   Line a large buttered casserole with corn tortillas.  Overlap them so as to cover the casserole completely.  Scatter small pieces of meat from one cooked chicken over thetortillas.  (Lobster or shrimp are also good meats to use and make a fine dish.)  Next scatter a layer of thin-sliced onion over all.  Then add five or six green chile strips cut into small pieces and cover with a half-inch layer of grated Monterey Jack cheese and grated Longhorn cheese.  Add one-half pint of sour cream spread over all, also 2 cups milk or cream.  Sprinkle lightly with salt and oregano.  Cover with another layer of corn tortillas...and if your casserole is large enough, repeat the whole process into a second layer of everything.  Bake is a hot 425-degree oven for about 45 minutes.  Before serving, place a layer of cheese over the top, and let it melt and brown well.  The consistency should be damp with the melted cheese and tortillas, but not sloppy.

   Don't know if the OED wants "Mexican Rice," "Mexican Salad," "Mexican Chocolate," and such other M's.


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Sun Jun 18 06:45:19 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:45:19 -0500
Subject: Swiss Enchiladas and Mexican "x"
Message-ID: <SUN.18.JUN.2000.014519.0500.>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    Don't know if the OED wants "Mexican Rice," "Mexican Salad," "Mexican Chocolate," and such other M's.

I dunno about OED, and I'll eschew comment on "Mexican rice" and
"Mexican salad", but "Mexican Chocolate" deserves at least passing
comment.  (Actually, it could use a whole dissertation -- if and only if
it's accompanied by taste testing.)

National tastes in chocolate produce at least as many variations as the
whole gamut of possibilities that characterizes what locals mean by "rye
bread".

Each U.S. city worth mentioning has its own, remarkably unique,
definitions of the taste, texture, crustiness, color, and presence or
absence of seeds in what would be expected in the epitome of rye bread.
I've had San Francisco sourdough rye bread, with caraway seeds at that,
served in a Market Street sandwich shop's idea of a Reuben sandwich --
and Chicagoans are more dissatisfied with a quintessential New York
corned beef sandwich than Gothamites are with the Windy City's best
corned beef on rye.  Not by much, mind you. (And if the delicatessen
doesn't serve phosphates to go with the sandwich, it isn't authentic
anyway.)

National tastes in chocolate are even more disparate. They lead to
products which are so different that only their ultimate relationship to
the cacao bean unites them.  Mexicans, whose ancestors have been using
chocolate much longer than anyone else on earth, make chocolate candies
that are more distinctive of local cuisine than Mexican tortillas, while
Mexico's variety of hot chocolate puts any other attempt at that
beverage into a hopeless second place before competition even begins.

If you ever get a chance to sample chocolate freshly made in Mexico,
you'll know why "Mexican chocolate" really deserves its own entry in any
dictionary whose editors have taste buds.

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 19 00:43:59 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 20:43:59 EDT
Subject: Swap Spit; New Cockney Rhyming Slang
Message-ID: <SUN.18.JUN.2000.204359.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/7/2000 12:48:01 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

<< And can you guess what _Brad Pitt_ means to a Cockney? >>

What about Leonardo D. Craprio?


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 19 00:47:19 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 20:47:19 EDT
Subject: forte (was: Re: Accents in Am. English)
Message-ID: <SUN.18.JUN.2000.204719.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/16/2000 4:43:10 PM, dumasb at UTK.EDU writes:

<< I ALWAYS say /fort/, but I am careful to say aferwards, "a word that
almost no one pronounces correctly anymore." I don't mind being thought
ignorant, but I sure don't want to miss an opportunity to give a Lx
101 lecture. (I usually get it.) (When I hear /fortay/ I think music.) >>

It is good to hear that linguists now understand that  "correctly pronounced"
is a legitimate category in American society.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 19 05:08:03 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 01:08:03 EDT
Subject: May your children all be acrobats
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUN.2000.010803.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     Sali drove me to the service for Fred Cassidy today.  Donald Lance
recited Tennyson's "Crossing the Bar."  The Algeos were also there--which
reminds me, I owe Glowka some new words.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MEXICAN CHOCOLATE

    I might have earlier citations at home.
    From FRYINGPANS WEST (1969) by Sam Arnold, pg. 36:

    Early visitors to the Southwest found the Mexicans enjoying a thick type
of hot chocolate.  It had both a different consistency and flavor than they
had encountered elsewhere.
    Mexican chocolate _is_ different in that it has both cinnamon and a bit
of nutmeg in it; plus clove and egg for festival occasions such as Christmas
eve.  You can make it very easily (Pg. 37--ed.) yourself and will find the
spices add tremendously to the flavor.
MEXICAN CHOCOLATE
2 squares grated chocolate
1/2 cup boiling water
2 cups milk
3 tablespoons sugar
1 teaspoon cinnamon
1 egg
pinch of salt
pinch of nutmeg
    Cook 2 squares grated chocolate with 1/2 cup boiling water, 2 cups milk,
3 tablespoons sugar, 1 teaspoon vanilla, 1 cup cream, a pinch of salt,
nutmeg, 1 teaspoon cinnamon and an egg.
    Boil the chocolate in water for 5 minutes to bring out its full body and
flavor.  Then add milk, cream, sugar, salt, egg and spices.  Cook in a double
boiler for an hour, beating vigorously at 5-10 minute intervals.
    That's the old-fashioned way.  If you have a blender, simply add hot milk
or cream to sweet chocolate (about two cups of chocolate buds), and egg,
nutmeg and cinnamon and blend for 2 minutes.  I like to add just a pinch of
ground orange peel.  Be sure, however you make it, to beat or blend until
frothy.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BERLINER DOUGHNUTS (continued)

    From LUCHOWS (there's an umlaut here, just like FRESHENS yogurt, to add
to that HAAGEN DAZS discussion) GERMAN COOKBOOK (1952) by Leonard Jan
Mitchell, pg. 190:

FILLED BERLINER PANCAKES OR DOUGHNUTS
PASTNACHT KRAPFEN
1 pink milk
1 cake compressed yeast
4 1/2 to 5 cups flour
1/4 pound butter, melted
1/2 cup sugar
1/2 lemon peel, grated
3 eggs, beaten
Flour
Currant jelly or thick cooked apples
Lard or shortening for deep frying
Extra sugar
    Heat milk to lukewarm.  Soften yeast in 1/4 cup warm milk.  Stir 2 1/2
cups flour smoothly into rest of warm milk.  Mix yeast quickly into this
batter.  Cover lightly with folded towel and let stand 1 hour or longer.
    After sponge has risen well, mix in melted butter, sugar, lemon peel,
eggs, and remaining flour.  Stir well.
    Turn dough out on lightly floured board.  Fold over, then roll lightly to
1/2-inch thickness.  Cut with 3-inch round cooky cutter.  Spread half of the
rounds with 1 heaping teaspoon jelly or cooked apples.  Cover these with
remaining rounds.  Crimp edges firmly together with fingers.  Leave on
floured board.  Cover lightly with folded towel and let rise in warm toom 1/2
hour, or until light and puffy.
    Fry a few Berliners at a time in deep hot fat (360 degrees F.) until
golden brown.  Remove from fat, drain on thick paper toweling.  WHile hot,
roll in sugar.  Makes 1 1/2 to 2 dozen.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MAY YOUR CHILDREN ALL BE ACROBATS

    I just went through my Barry Buchanan papers for VAUDEVILLE looking at
"M."

_May your children all be acrobats_  A colloquialism used by performers when
they are irritated and still retain their sense of humor.  The traditional
vaudeville curse.

_Material reaches too far back_  A phrase which indicates that the patter,
crossfire, or gags used by an act is too antiquated to be good.

_Monday Afternoon Audience_  Formerly the Monday afternoon patrons of
vaudeville houses in New York City were professional people who came to see
the acts for business reasons.  The patrons at these performances were
particularly difficult to please.

_Michael Feeney_  Any theatrical manager who is unrelenting and
unsympathetic; also a stage manager with the same characteristics.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Mon Jun 19 05:29:28 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 22:29:28 -0700
Subject: Mexican chocolate
In-Reply-To: <200006190400.VAA22913@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <SUN.18.JUN.2000.222928.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'll second Mike Salovesh's nomination of Mexican chocolate, though I'm
afraid I'd still put it second behind Hershey's (either hot chocolate or
bar). However, nothing can quite match a cup of hot Mexican chocolate
around midnight on a chilly night in Mexico City with churros (the latter
just becoming known on the American commercial scene) freshly hot from the
fryer. An unforgettable experience.

        Rudy


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 19 14:22:58 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:22:58 -0700
Subject: "gay old time" and gender
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUN.2000.072258.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Pat Pflieger <feste at KEYSTONENET.COM> wrote:
> I'm annotating some 19th-century letters and have
> come upon an etymology
> problem I hope someone can help me solve.
>
> Many of the letter-writers were American teenagers,
> subscribers to a
> magazine which printed their letters.  In 1861, a
> girl living in Albany,
> New York, wrote about what "a gay old time" she and
> her friends had,
> skating on the local pond.  This was immediately
> challenged by a boy, who
> accused her of being a male subscriber writing under
> a female pseudonym.
> (It's a long story.  Trust me.)  His evidence was
> the phrase "gay old
> time":  she had, he pointed out, "[let] fall an
> expression which no
> cultivated and traveled young lady, in fact, no
> woman at all, would ever
> use, but one common in the mouths of boys and young
> men--'a gay old time.'"
>
> I haven't been able to track the history of the
> phrase "gay old time", let
> alone its gender-specific uses.  I've checked the
> OED, Mathews' _Dictionary
> of Americanisms_, Cassidy's _Dictionary of American
> English_, & Lighter's
> _Dictionary of American Slang_.  I've also run it
> through Internet search
> engines, but you can imagine the results.
>
> Can anyone point me toward a source that might help
> me discuss the phrase?
>
> Pat Pflieger
> feste at keystonenet.com

Considering the source, a teen-age boy, I don't know
how much weight should be given to his possibly
quite-heavily prejudiced opinion - prejudiced to his
own ideas or those of his close associates rather than
reflecting broader usage or opinion.

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 19 15:36:11 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:36:11 -0700
Subject: Mexican chocolate
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUN.2000.083611.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Rudolph C Troike <rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU> wrote:
> I'll second Mike Salovesh's nomination of Mexican
> chocolate, though I'm
> afraid I'd still put it second behind Hershey's
> (either hot chocolate or
> bar)...
>
>         Rudy

Hershey's gets the distinctly "american" taste in its
milk chocolate by using sour milk.  This is why most
who have grown up eating non-american chocolate
consider Hersheys milk chocolate to have an inferior
or unpleasant flavor, and at least one reason
"foreign" chocolates taste so different to Americans.



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 19 16:05:36 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 12:05:36 -0400
Subject: Mexican Pizza (continued)
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUN.2000.120536.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   One book I'll have to get my hands on is "Cookbbok from LBJ Country" (Chi Trib, Aug. 30, 1968), THE PEDERNALES COUNTY COOKBOOK by Lillian Fehrenbach.  Mexican dishes include "tamales, chili, and chicken chalupas."  Chimichangas, perhaps?
   "Mexican chocolate" and "Mexican pizza" have each been around over 30 years and are not going away soon, but again, it's the OED's call.
   In a CHICAGO TRIBUNE article, 30 August 1968, pg. 12, section 2, titled "New Dagwood Gets Lesson on Sandwiches," about actor Will Hutchins and the show BLONDIE, is this in column three:

   Following is the family recipe for another of Will's favorites, a tasty and easy make-at-home pizza:
   MEXICAN PIZZA
(Two 10 or 12-inch pizzas)
1 package frozen or refrigerated ready mixed dough for french bread
1 1/2 tablespoons cornmeal
1 can (6 ounces) tomato paste
2 cans (8 ounces each) tomato sauce
1 can (7 ounces) luncheon meat, diced or mashed
1 small onion, grated
1 clove garlic, crushed
1/2 teaspoon each: oregano, chili powder
1 cup (4 ounces) coarsely shredded mozarella cheese
1/2 cup sliced pepperoni
2 tablespoons anchovies
1/4 cup sliced fresh mushrooms
1/4 cup sliced green and ripe pitted olives
   Divide dough in half.  Roll out between two pieces of waxed paper to size of pizza pans, 10 or 12 inches in diameter.  Lightly butter pizza pans and sprinkle with cornmeal.  Place rounds of rolled out dough on each.  Mix tomato paste, tomato sauce, luncheon meat, onion, garlic, oregano, and chili powder.  Divide and spread on rounds of dough.  Cover each with mozarella cheese and cheddar cheese and then add half of remaining ingredients to each (or divide as desired).  Bake on lowest rack of oven at 400 degrees for about 25 minutes.  Cut in wedges and serve hot.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 20 06:39:54 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 02:39:54 -0400
Subject: God's Waiting Room
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.023954.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from New York City, where waiting for a bus from LaGuardia Airport takes longer than a flight from Chicago.

--------------------------------------------------------
GOD'S WAITING ROOM

   A USA TODAY, 19 June 2000, pg. 8B, col. 1, story about nursing homes mentions "Florida, God's waiting room."  I've heard comedians use that (Rita Rudner), but it's not in the RHHDAS.
   Today's USA Today also has an article about NYPD BLUE language (hump; IAB; rat squad; the job; juice; lawyering up; PAA; reaching out; skel), but it's nothing much.

--------------------------------------------------------
MONKEY WRENCH (continued)

   I posted the Scientific American "monkey wrench" 1857 cite here, but I though I had also posted something about Charles Monckey.
   From the CHICAGO EVENING JOURNAL, 21 September 1886, pg. 4, col. 4:

   Charles Monckey, inventor of the Monckey wrench (ignorantly called the monkey wrench), is living in poverty in Brooklyn.  He sold the patent for $2,000, and now millions are made annually out of the invention.

--------------------------------------------------------
MISFITS (continued)

   From the CHICAGO EVENING JOURNAL, 9 September 1885, pg. 2, col. 3:

   From New York divorce court slang a new word has been coined for divorced persons, or married people not living together--namely, "misfits."

--------------------------------------------------------
THE WORLD OWES ME A LIVING

   I always thought that this phrase came out of the Depression.  It certainly was popular in the 1930s.  J. L. Rhys wrote THE WORLD OWES ME A LIVING (1939).
   From the CHICAGO EVENING JOURNAL, 10 October 1885, pg. 2, col. 1:

   The world does not owe anybody "a living" till he has earned it.

   Back to work.


From john.kirk at UNITE.CO.UK  Tue Jun 20 11:32:48 2000
From: john.kirk at UNITE.CO.UK (John Kirk)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:32:48 +0100
Subject: DIALECT2000: Language Links Conference
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.123248.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>



Please find attached details (*.rtf format) of the DIALECT2000:
Language Links Conference onthe Languages of Scotland and Ireland
being held at Queen's University Belfast from 9-16 August 2000.


See also our webpage at
http://www.qub.ac.uk/en/lang/Conferences/Dialect2000.htm
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--
John Kirk
Co-Organiser, Dialect2000: Language Links
School of English
Queen's University Belfast
Email: J.M.Kirk at qub.ac.uk
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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 20 16:42:15 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:42:15 -0400
Subject: "Kidpreneur" in WSJ
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.124215.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I've heard "kidpreneur" before, and I'm still not sold on the term.  Kid entrepreneurs.  Cute, but stupid.
   From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 20 June 2000, pg. B1, col. 2:

_"Kidpreneurs" Program Focuses on Minority Youngsters_
_Ripe Business Opportunity Is Found as Kids Are Urged to Be Entrepreneurs_
   (...)  The collection of youngsters, ranging from age 4 to 18, is part of the Kidpreneurs program, an offshoot of Black Enterprise magazine, which holds an annual conference for black entrepreneurs.  About 120 "kidpreneurs" took part in the kids version of the conference last month, while their parents attended workshops and networking sessions held by the magazine.


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun 20 17:11:57 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:11:57 -0700
Subject: "Kidpreneur" in WSJ
In-Reply-To: <200006201642.MAA09694@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.101157.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

YUCK!!!

I'm sorry--I don't know whether the word or the idea behind it disgusts me
more.  Not only is business trying to remake every part of society in its
own image, now it can't even let our kids have a childhood before
instilling in them the idea that the only acceptable thing to be when you
grow up is an "entrepreneur."  I guess kids are supposed to be born with a
stock option in their mouths, and as soon as they learn to walk, "playing"
will be replaced with "competing."  And as for their parents, hey, who
wants to "visit" when you can "network" instead?

O.k., end of off-topic tirade.

Peter Mc.

--On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 12:42 PM -0400 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    I've heard "kidpreneur" before, and I'm still not sold on the term.
>    Kid entrepreneurs.  Cute, but stupid. From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 20
>    June 2000, pg. B1, col. 2:
>
> _"Kidpreneurs" Program Focuses on Minority Youngsters_
> _Ripe Business Opportunity Is Found as Kids Are Urged to Be Entrepreneurs_
>    (...)  The collection of youngsters, ranging from age 4 to 18, is part
>    of the Kidpreneurs program, an offshoot of Black Enterprise magazine,
>    which holds an annual conference for black entrepreneurs.  About 120
>    "kidpreneurs" took part in the kids version of the conference last
>    month, while their parents attended workshops and networking sessions
>    held by the magazine.



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun 20 17:22:20 2000
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:22:20 -0400
Subject: "Kidpreneur" in WSJ
In-Reply-To: <200006201642.MAA09694@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.132220.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This term has been submitted to the Jargon Watch mailbox several times where
it was swiftly banished to the "Jargon from Hell" folder.

I've received a number of these awful -preneur coinages, such as
"cyberpreneur" and (hold onto your stomach contents) "tantrapreneur"
(someone who runs a business with his/her "significant other" -- tantra as
in tantric sex). Make it stop.


> From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:42:15 -0400
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: "Kidpreneur" in WSJ
>
> I've heard "kidpreneur" before, and I'm still not sold on the term.  Kid
> entrepreneurs.  Cute, but stupid.
> From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 20 June 2000, pg. B1, col. 2:
>
> _"Kidpreneurs" Program Focuses on Minority Youngsters_
> _Ripe Business Opportunity Is Found as Kids Are Urged to Be Entrepreneurs_
> (...)  The collection of youngsters, ranging from age 4 to 18, is part of the
> Kidpreneurs program, an offshoot of Black Enterprise magazine, which holds an
> annual conference for black entrepreneurs.  About 120 "kidpreneurs" took part
> in the kids version of the conference last month, while their parents attended
> workshops and networking sessions held by the magazine.
>


From nmanson at BRIGHT.NET  Tue Jun 20 17:08:45 2000
From: nmanson at BRIGHT.NET (Nathan Manson)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:08:45 -0400
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBED
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.130845.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

UNSUBSCRIBED
jt268096 at oak.cats.ohiou.edu


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun 20 17:38:14 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:38:14 -0700
Subject: "Kidpreneur" in WSJ
In-Reply-To: <B575208C.9C7%garethb2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.103814.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hey, this is growing on me after all.  How about "tantrumpreneur"--someone
who starts a business teaching primal scream therapy, perhaps?  This should
be perfect for one of those 4-year-old kidpreneurs.  Check it out at
"www.tantrum.com"!

--On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 1:22 PM -0400 Gareth Branwyn
<garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:

> I've received a number of these awful -preneur coinages, such as
> "cyberpreneur" and (hold onto your stomach contents) "tantrapreneur"
> (someone who runs a business with his/her "significant other" -- tantra as
> in tantric sex). Make it stop.



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Tue Jun 20 17:42:36 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:42:36 -0400
Subject: "Kidpreneur" in WSJ
In-Reply-To: <543028.3170486294@dhcp-218-202-118.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.134236.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> Hey, this is growing on me after all.  How about "tantrumpreneur"--someone
> who starts a business teaching primal scream therapy, perhaps?  This should
> be perfect for one of those 4-year-old kidpreneurs.  Check it out at
> "www.tantrum.com"!

There is, of course, a tantrum.com. It appears to be a site for gamers.

I read somewhere that something like 98% of single-word items (I don't
from what dictionary) have been registered as .coms already.

-- Steve K


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 20 19:56:49 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:56:49 -0400
Subject: Misfit; "Chawing his ear"
In-Reply-To: <c0.51465fc.267c0f71@aol.com> from "Bapopik@AOL.COM" at Jun 16,
 2000 07:17:05 PM
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.155649.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>    "CHAWING HIS EAR" is the caption beneath the illustration in the CHICAGO
> TRIBUNE, 6 September 1885, pg. 8, col. 1.  I didn't find the expression in
> the online OED.

No, but it's a big antedating of HDAS (1919-).

Jesse Sheidlower


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 20 20:49:49 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:49:49 -0400
Subject: "Kidpreneur" and its ilk
In-Reply-To: <543028.3170486294@dhcp-218-202-118.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.164949.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about someone who markets a service delivering main courses in the
States or pre-main courses in France?  That would, of course, be an
entreepreneur.

larry


At 10:38 AM -0700 6/20/00, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>Hey, this is growing on me after all.  How about "tantrumpreneur"--someone
>who starts a business teaching primal scream therapy, perhaps?  This should
>be perfect for one of those 4-year-old kidpreneurs.  Check it out at
>"www.tantrum.com"!
>
>--On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 1:22 PM -0400 Gareth Branwyn
><garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
>
>> I've received a number of these awful -preneur coinages, such as
>> "cyberpreneur" and (hold onto your stomach contents) "tantrapreneur"
>> (someone who runs a business with his/her "significant other" -- tantra as
>> in tantric sex). Make it stop.
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 20 20:49:26 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:49:26 -0400
Subject: "Kidpreneur" and its ilk
In-Reply-To: <v04011702b57588b10e26@[130.132.231.167]> from "Laurence Horn" at
 Jun 20, 2000 04:49:49 PM
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.164926.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry Horn wrote:
>
> How about someone who markets a service delivering main courses in the
> States or pre-main courses in France?  That would, of course, be an
> entreepreneur.

As contrasted with such a person who markets this service
online, who would be an eentreepreneur.

Jesse Sheidlower


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 20 20:51:38 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:51:38 EDT
Subject: GuideStar report on ADS
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.165138.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Did you know that there's a website with detailed information on just about
all of the nation's 620,000 nonprofit organizations? Sponsored by a bunch of
foundations, so you can among other things consider whether a particular
charity deserves your support.

Nonprofits have the opportunity to post information about their program and
goals, and I just did that for ADS. If you're curious, go to
www.guidestar.org
and just type in "American Dialect Society."

If you see anything that needs correction, let me know. - Allan Metcalf


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Tue Jun 20 21:07:08 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:07:08 -0500
Subject: outdated metaphors
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.160708.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Anyone interested in joining me to develop a publishable list of out-dated
metaphors,  especially those caused by the obsolescence of things
mechanical, e.g., "she could suck the knob off a gearshift lever."?

Bob


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Tue Jun 20 21:46:50 2000
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:46:50 -0400
Subject: "Kidpreneur" and its ilk
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.174650.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Or someone who sells animal doo-doo; a manurepreneur.

Bob

jester at PANIX.COM wrote:
>
> Larry Horn wrote:
> >
> > How about someone who markets a service delivering main courses in the
> > States or pre-main courses in France?  That would, of course, be an
> > entreepreneur.
>
> As contrasted with such a person who markets this service
> online, who would be an eentreepreneur.
>
> Jesse Sheidlower


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun 20 22:17:10 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:17:10 -0700
Subject: "Kidpreneur" and its ilk
In-Reply-To: <394FE64A.A6549638@voyager.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.151710.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Too bad this trend wasn't around during the heyday of Bhagwan Shree
Rajneesh. He would have been known as the world's greatest mantrapreneur.

(Not gonna sign this one.)

--On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 5:46 PM -0400 Bob Fitzke <fitzke at VOYAGER.NET> wrote:

> Or someone who sells animal doo-doo; a manurepreneur.
>
> Bob
>
> jester at PANIX.COM wrote:
>>
>> Larry Horn wrote:
>> >
>> > How about someone who markets a service delivering main courses in the
>> > States or pre-main courses in France?  That would, of course, be an
>> > entreepreneur.
>>
>> As contrasted with such a person who markets this service
>> online, who would be an eentreepreneur.
>>
>> Jesse Sheidlower



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Jun 20 22:27:57 2000
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:27:57 -0700
Subject: outdated metaphors
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000620160708.007d5370@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.152757.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Robert S. Wachal wrote:

> Anyone interested in joining me to develop a publishable list of out-dated
> metaphors,  especially those caused by the obsolescence of things
> mechanical, e.g., "she could suck the knob off a gearshift lever."?
>
> Bob
>

Are gearshift levers obsolete? I guess it's time to get a newer car...
Now the "typewriter gearshift" THAT'S obsolete, although I remember them
fondly ...

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 21 00:07:31 2000
From: ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM (Jane Clark)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:07:31 GMT
Subject: biscotti
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.000731.GMT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Me too. Ask Martha Stewart. They are cookies that are baked twice, so they
are very hard but yummy. I can't imagine a place where people have never had
biscotti. Hello!


>From: "Robert S. Wachal" <robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: biscotti
>Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 09:44:44 -0500
>
>I am surprised that this word (and item) seems almost exotic.  here in Iowa
>City, IA, they are available in all coffee houses and several supermarkets.
>  I'll bet that the same is true of many college towns.
>
>Wachal

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


From ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 21 00:37:35 2000
From: ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM (Jane Clark)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:37:35 GMT
Subject: Barry Popik t-shirts
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.003735.GMT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had a lovely dinner with Mr. Cassidy in California. Somehow I don't think
a t shirt is quite apropriate for such an elegant and wise man. I miss him
already.
J.Clark


>From: Barnhart <ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Barry Popik t-shirts
>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:12:39 -0400
>
>The policy of the committee was that in order to be t-shirted one had
>to be dead.
>
>Regards,
>David (the other member of the t-shirt committee)

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 21 00:48:49 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:48:49 -0400
Subject: Cooking South of the Rio Grande (1935)
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.204849.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I finally picked up my copies from last week.  From COOKING SOUTH OF THE RIO GRANDE (San Antonio, 1935):

Pg. 21:
_Menudo con Pezole_
Tripe
   Cut the tripe into very small pieces.  Clean very carefully.  Place in a kettle with water to cover and cook over a very slow fire until it is soft and tender.  Add salt, black pepper, garlic, chile powder and hominy to suit your taste.  Serve hot.

Pg. 27:
_Quesadillas_
1 dozen tortillas
1 lb. white cheese (grated)
   Place grated cheese on tortilla and wrap, fastening with a tooth pick; place in a hot oven without fire until cheese melts and pour over tortilla when removed from oven, a hot sauce to suit taste.

Pg. 28:
_Tostados_
   Use the Tortilla dough making tortillas exactly as directed in previous recipe.  Instead of baking over a griddle pan, the raw tortilla is fried in deep fat until it fluffs up.  After it is golden brown and is puffed up as much as it will go, fold carefully in half and fry some more until it is very crisp.  Remove from fat and drain on heavy brown paper.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Wed Jun 21 00:54:19 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:54:19 -0700
Subject: Cooking South of the Rio Grande (1935)
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.175419.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> _Tostados_
>    Use the Tortilla dough making tortillas exactly as directed in previous recipe.  Instead of baking over a griddle pan, the raw tortilla is fried in deep fat until it fluffs up.  After it is golden brown and is puffed up as much as it will go, fold carefully in half and fry some more until it is very crisp.  Remove from fat and drain on heavy brown paper.


Add whole milk cheese, chorizo sausage, eat, and wait for arteries to harden.

--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Kid" by Aardman Animation


From weetrick at ALLTEL.NET  Wed Jun 21 03:00:28 2000
From: weetrick at ALLTEL.NET (Patrick McGraw)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:00:28 -0400
Subject: "Kidpreneur" and its ilk
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.230028.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Chairman of Hyundai is the world's leading Elantrapreneur.

And someone who founds a company that makes cancer drugs is an oncopreneur.
Not to be confused with an innovative car horn manufacturer, known as a
honkopreneur.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at linfield.edu>
To: "American Dialect Society" <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: "Kidpreneur" and its ilk


> Too bad this trend wasn't around during the heyday of Bhagwan Shree
> Rajneesh. He would have been known as the world's greatest mantrapreneur.
>
> (Not gonna sign this one.)
>
> --On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 5:46 PM -0400 Bob Fitzke <fitzke at VOYAGER.NET>
wrote:
>
> > Or someone who sells animal doo-doo; a manurepreneur.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > jester at PANIX.COM wrote:
> >>
> >> Larry Horn wrote:
> >> >
> >> > How about someone who markets a service delivering main courses in
the
> >> > States or pre-main courses in France?  That would, of course, be an
> >> > entreepreneur.
> >>
> >> As contrasted with such a person who markets this service
> >> online, who would be an eentreepreneur.
> >>
> >> Jesse Sheidlower
>
>
>
>
****************************************************************************
>                                Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu
>


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Wed Jun 21 04:26:29 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 21:26:29 -0700
Subject: Dialect2000 conference notice
In-Reply-To: <200006210401.VAA16471@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.212629.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Too bad the information wasn't sent in readable form. All I got was pages
of meaningless numbers-and-letters.

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 21 04:48:05 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:48:05 EDT
Subject: Mexican Chocolate; Tex-Mex; S.O.B. Stew; Devil's Food
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.004805.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   There are tons of gems in these Texas cookbooks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MEXICAN CHOCOLATE (continued)

   From THE TEXAS COOKBOOK (1949) by Arthur and Bobbie Coleman, pg. 234:

   Anyone interested in taking a few pains will be rewarded amply by getting
Mexican chocolate.  Mexican shops in this country carry two kinds.  One they
make up here into round cakes.  The other they import from Mexico, where it
is made up in squares, much like ours, except that the Mexican chocolate is
usually better and also has the flavoring, sugar, and perhaps the eggs
already in it.  Then, to beat it, you can use either the _molinillo_, which
is the wooden beater of Mexico, or a Dover egg-beater.
   We recommend only Mexican chocolate, with the flavoring and sweetening in
it, for the following recipe.
   _Mexican Chocolate_
   Take a 1-inch square of Mexican chocolate for each cup of milk.  Bring the
chocolate and the milk to a slow boil, and cook slowly for 10 minutes.
Remove from the fire and beat with a _molinillo_ or with an egg-beater until
a thick (Pg. 235--ed.) foam is formed.  Make only 1 cup at a time, and pour
very carefully into chocolate cups.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TEX-MEX

   The OED has Tex-Mex from 1945, but Tex-Mex "cooking" appears to be from
1973.
   From THE WIDE, WIDE WORLD OF TEXAS COOKING (1970) by Morton Gill Clark,
pg. 57:

   Find a Texan away from Texas any length of time and what is he longing to
eat?  Not filet mignon with Bearnaise sauce, not lobster a l"Americaine (Pg.
58--ed.), but Tex-Mex dishes...or anyway dishes with a Tex-Mex taste, such as
_enchiladas_, _frijoles refritos_, _tacos_, lettuce and sliced tomato with
grated cheese, _Guacamole_, _Tortillas_, sauce picante.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SON-OF-A-BITCH STEW (continued)

   Another S.O.B. citation (still not the 1800s, but at least closer) is from
THE TEXAS COOKBOOK (1949) by Arthur and Bobbie Coleman, pg. 45:

   And then there is the way that is all Texas' own: the original
Son-of-a-Bitch Stew.  It grew up on the far ranches, where cowbrutes are the
main source of food.  But no one should let its apparent sparseness deceive
him.  The Son-of-a-Bitch Stew is well-named--it is just that, in the admiring
sense.
   This recipe is straight off Uncle Jim's range, out in the Pecos Country,
exactly as Aunt Nannie gave it to us.  Aunt Nannie ought to know.  She has
been cooking this stew and other good food for cowpokes since we were
yearlings, more or less.  Of course, these quantities have been citified.
Aunt Nannie is more used to fixing for a couple of dozen hungry hands than
for a family.
   _Pecos Son-of-a-Bitch Stew_
   Throw into the pot 1 pound of neck meat cut in small pieces, 1 heart cut
up, the brains, all the marrow-gut, a (Pg. 46--ed.) little of the liver,
salt, pepper, and _chiles_.  Start in cold water.  Cook slowly until done,
about 6 or 7 hours.  When the meat is almost done, add 1 large can of tomato
juice, if desired.  Feeds about 8.
   For the edification of those who may be dubious about marrow-gut, it is
not an intestine.  It is a milk-secreting tract found only in calves, and it
imparts to a stew a delicious flavor all its own, without which the stew is
nothing like so distinctive.  Here is another version of the Son-of-a-Bitch
Stew, which Jack Thornton says out in the country where he ranched for many
years is called "Gentleman from Odessa" (Odessa, Texas, of course)--nobody we
ever met seems to know why--but for the mollification of gentlemen from
Odessa, he smiled when he said it.  In fact, he laughed out loud. (...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
DEVIL'S FOOD

   What else can you serve after S.O.B.?
   John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK has: "The first
devil's-food recipe appeared in 1900..."
   THE CAPITOL COOK BOOK (Austin, TX, 1899) has _two_ "devil's food" recipes
on page 123.  The library closed before I could copy them.


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Wed Jun 21 05:57:23 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:57:23 -0500
Subject: Dialect2000 conference notice
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.005723.0500.>

Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>
> Too bad the information wasn't sent in readable form. All I got was pages
> of meaningless numbers-and-letters.
>
>         Rudy

This may be a little better.  Enjoy!

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!

N.B.: The original text, in rich text format, leaned a lot on changing
fonts, boldface, and italics for organization and emphasis.  Since we
can't do that in plain ASCII text, I took the liberty of adding lots of
paragraph breaks for clarity.  Except for that, the following is
unchanged from the attachment you couldn't see in meaningful form:

DIALECT2000
9-16 August 2000
The Queen's University of Belfast

incorporating

6th International Conference on the Languages of Scotland and Ulster
(6ICLSU)
 (in collaboration with the Forum for Research on the Languages of
Scotland and Ulster)



2nd International Conference on the Languages of Ireland (2ICLI)
(sequel to the First Conference, University of Ulster, Jordanstown, June
1994)

Organisers: Dr. John M. Kirk and Prof. Dónall Ó Baoill
email: J.M.Kirk at qub.ac.uk and d.obaoill at qub.ac.uk
tel. (+)44 (0)28 9027 3815 and (+4) (0)28 9027 3390
fax. (+)44 (0)28 9031 4615

Postal Address:
DIALECT2000
School of English
Queen's University Belfast
Belfast, BT7 1NN
Northern Ireland

Provisional Programme

Wednesday 9 August:                     Arrival

Thursday 10-Friday 11 August:   6ICLSU Papers

Saturday 12 August                      Language, Politics and Ethnolinguistics
Sunday 13 August:                       Linguistic Cultural Tour of Northern
Ireland
Monday 14-Tuesday 15 August     2ICLI Papers
Wednesday 16 August                     Depart

 6ICLSU Papers: Draft Timetable (version 6: 15 June 2000)

Thursday 10 August 2000

9.30    Opening Speeches

10.00   Tribute to A.J.Aitken
Isebail Macleod and Marace Dareau

10.15   Tribute to R.J. Gregg
Philip Robinson and Michael Montgomery

10.30   Coffee

11.00   4 Historical Papers

        Kay Muhr (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Common Elements in Irish and Scottish Place-Names

        Susanne Kries (University of Potsdam)
        The Linguistic Evidence for Scandinavian-Scottish Cultural Contact in
the Middle Ages: The Case of Southwest Scotland

        Marace Dareau (DOST, University of Edinburgh)
        Exploring the Scots/Gaelic Interface

        Volker Mohr (University of Heidelberg)
        Scottish Linguistics, 1595-1872: An Annotated Bibliography

13.00   Lunch

14.00   3 Papers on Phonology

        Volker Mohr (University of Heidelberg)
        Verb Morphology, Aitken's Law and Old Norse: Evidence from Southern
Scots

        Caroline Macafee (University of Aberdeen)
        Lowland Sources of Ulster Scots: Gregg and LAS3 Compared

        Kevin McCafferty (University of Tromsø)
        The mither leid: Mrs M.C. Gregg and the shape of Ulster-Scots

15.30   Tea

16.00   3 Historical Overviews

        Manfred Görlach (University of Cologne)
        Scots: the Outside View?

        Michael Montgomery (University of South Carolina)
        How the Montgomeries Lost the Scots Language

        Karen P. Corrigan (University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne)
        Central Places vs. Enclaves: The Spreead of Northern Dialects of
English/Scots and the Survival of Irish in County Armagh, N.I. 1600-1900

17.30   Marace Dareau and Isebail MacLeod
        Update on the Scottish Dictionary Projects

18.00   End of Afternoon Session

Evening Reception

 Friday, 11 August

9.30    3 Papers on Stylistics

        Derrick McClure (University of Aberdeen)
        Trom-Laighe or Widdreme: Scotticising Sorley MacLean

        Susana Calvo Alvaro (University of Aberdeen)
        20th Century Popular Scottish Theatre and the Scots Language: A
Sociolinguistic Study

        Walter Morani (Milan)
        Gendering Oor National Language: 'Queer Scots' in Contemporary Gay and
        Lesbian Theatre in Scotland

11.00   Coffee

11.30   3 Papers on Sociolinguistics

        Ronald Macaulay (Pitzer College)
        Age, Gender, and Social Class Differences in Glasgow Discourse

        Danielle Löw (University of Heidelberg)
        Language Attitudes and Language Use in Pitmedden

        Mari Imamura (University of Aberdeen)
        Methodological Deliberations on Investigating Teachers'
Metalinguistic          Awareness and the Preservation of Scots Dialects

13.00   Lunch

14.00   Gaelic

        Morag MacNeil (Sabal Mor Ostaig)
        Deconstructing and Reconstructing: Gaelic Identities in Shift

14.30   Shetland

        Walter Morani (Milan)
        Scots and Shetlandic in the Poetry of Christine De Luca

        Doreen Waugh (University of Glasgow)
        Conscious Archaisms in Shetland Dialect

15.30   Tea

16.00   Song

        Sheila Douglas (Perth)
        The Scots Language and the Song Tradition

        Steve Sweeney-Turner (University of the Highlands and Islands)
        The Political Parlour: Identity and Ideology in Scottish National Song

17.00   Plenary

        Manfred Görlach (University of Cologne)
        What is Ulster Scots?

18.30   University Reception

19.30   Dinner

20.30   Evening Session:

        Sheila Douglas, Brian Mullen, Len Graham, John Campbell
        Child Ballads and Ireland



Dialect 2000: Language Links
Language, Politics and Ethnolinguistics
Saturday 12 August 2000, Queen's University Belfast

This day-long Symposium will be concerned with language and politics
with particular emphasis on ethnolinguistics within a political
accommodation of equality. We see this as an opportunity to focus on the
growing politicisation of linguistic rights in both Ireland and Scotland
and the response by the various national and devolved governments. As
the Belfast Good Friday Agreement contains a very strong bill of human
rights, we consider it important to consider all minority groups seeking
political redress and who feel subject to discrimination on grounds of
language. We think in particular of the travelling community, the deaf
communities who use Irish Sign Language as well as British Sign
Language, and more generally of gender and sexual identity. Our hope is
that the debate, which tends to focus on Irish Gaelic and Ulster Scots
in the North and on Scottish Gaelic and Scots in Scotland, might benefit
from its contextualisation within a wider framework of linguistic
diversity and political recognition and accommodation, as, indeed, the
Good Friday Agreement seeks to do.

        The Symposium will be structured into four sessions:

· The Symposium will open by several presentations dealing with
institutional and political arrangements dealing with these issues in
place in Northern Ireland before and leading up to the Good Friday
Agreement. So far, we have received commitments from Dónall O Riagáin
(General Secretary, European Bureau for Lesser-Used Languages) and Mari
FitzDuff (Director, INCORE, University of Ulster, and former Chief
executive, NI Community Relations Council). Further invitations are
still being considered.

· The second session will be devoted to statements by constituent
spokespersons and activists seeking to show that there has been real or
perceived discrimination of a kind that can be attributed to language of
one sort or another, and with reference to the Good Friday Agreement
appealing to the new devolved government for assistance and support. So
far we have received commitments from the non-indigenous language
communities, the deaf community, the women's community, and the gay
community. Invitations to the Irish Gaelic community, the Ulster Scots
community, and the Travellers community are still being considered.

· The third session will be devoted to statements and responses by
Ministers of devolved government about the way forward and the better
future for all of us. So far, Sean Farran, Minister for Higher
Education, has committed himself to speaking, and Dermot Nesbitt, Junior
Minister in the Office of First and Deputy First Minister, and Michael
McGimpsey, Minister for Culture, arts and Leisure, are reconsidering the
invitations now that they have resumed their roles. In addition, we hope
to have a spokesperson from the new NI Human Rights Commission and from
the two new language agencies forming the North-South Implementation
Body on Language.

· The final session will be devoted to discussion between all speakers,
participants, and any other invited guests.
 2ICLI Papers (Draft 6: 15 June 2000)

Monday 14 August 2000

9.00-10.30      Plenary

        Markku Filppula (University of Joensuu)
        Irish Influence in Hiberno-English: Some Problems of Argumentation

10.30   Coffee

11.00-13.00     5 Papers on Contact and Syntax

        Karen P. Corrigan (University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne)
        Languages in Contact: Some Solutions for Northern Hiberno-English?

        Kevin McCafferty (University of Tromsø)
        Is it already dropping the future and now forgetting the recent past
we'll be after? Change in the Irish English be after V-ing construction

        Terence Odlin (Ohio State University)
        Substrate Influence and Linguistic Identity: The Cases of Ebonics and
Anglo-Irish

        Patricia Ronan (University of Marburg)
        On the Progressive in Hiberno-English

13.00   Lunch

14.00   5 Papers on Irish Syntax, Phonology, and Proverbs

        Aidan Doyle (University of Gdansk)
        Complex Predicates in Irish and English

        Peter McQuillan (University of Notre Dame)
        Language, Culture and History: the Case of Ir. duchas

        Natalia A. Nikolaeva (Lomonossov Moscow State University)
        On the Phonology of the O.Ir. Names Amlaib, Ímar, Tomrair

        Brian O Curnain (Institute of Advanced Studies, Dublin)
        The New Ir. 3rd pers. pl. form <adar>

        Fionnuala Carson Williams  (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Quotation Proverbs in Ireland

16.30   Tea

17.00
        Michael Montgomery (University of South Carolina)
        Early Modern English in Ulster

        Alison Henry (University of Ulster at Jordanstown)
        Expletives and agreement in Belfast English

18.00    End of afternoon session

Evening Reception


 Tuesday 15 August 2000

9.00    Special Session on Travellers Language

        Mary Burke (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Simply bad English with some bad Irish thrown in: The Ambiguous
Status          of Shelta in Ireland

        Mícheál Ó hAodha (University of Limerick)
        The acquisition of Cant "slang" by teenagers in Galway city

        Martin McDonough
        tba

        Sally Flynn
        tba

        Sinead Ni Shuinear
        A History of Academic Treatment of Traveller Language

        Sheila Douglas
        Travellers Cant in Scotland

13.00 Lunch

14.00   Special Session on Language, Politics and Education

        Liam Andrews (Belfast)
        The Politics of the Irish-language Movement in Northern Ireland: the
1920s and the 1930s

        Aodán Mac Póilin (Ultach Trust, Belfast)
        Shotgun Marriages: Cross-border (Irish/Ulster-Scots) Language Body

        Simone Zwickl (University of Heidelberg)
        Language Attitudes towards the Irish Language and towards Dialect
across  the Northern Irish/Irish Border

        Brian Lambkin (Centre for Migration Studies, Ulster-American Folk Park)
        Migration, Education for Linguistic Diversity and the Introduction of
Citizenship Education to Schools in Northern Ireland

        Fionnuala Carson Williams (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Terms, Phrases, the Local Press and the Northern Ireland Conflict

        Malcolm Scott (Ultach Trust, Belfast)
        The Bishop, the Highlanders and the Fanatick's': William King, DD, and
Immigration from Argyll and the Isles

        Eugene McKendry (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Modern Languages Education Policies in Ireland and Britain

        Alison Henry and Cathy Finlay (University of Ulster
        Linguistic Discrimination: Local Language Varieties, Education and
Employment in Northern Ireland

18.30   End of Afternoon Session

Evening Reception

Wednesday 16 August

9.00-10.30      Plenary

        Raymond Hickey (University of Essen)
        Ireland as a Linguistic Area

10.30   Simone Zwickl (University of Heidelberg)
        Dialect Use in Armagh and Monaghan: Linguistic and Extralinguistic
Factors

11.00   Coffee

11.30   3 Papers on Phonology

        Geoff Lindsey and John Harris (University College London)
        Irish English Dentals: Phonetic Exponence versus Enhancement

        Dónall Ó Baoill (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        ng-deletion: an Ulster-Irish Feature?

        Kevin McCafferty (University of Tromsø)
        (London)Derry English: the last word

13.00   Lunch

14.00   Ireland

        Jeffrey A. Kallen (TCD) and John M. Kirk (QUB)
        ICE Ireland: A First Report

        Goodith White (University of Leeds)
        The Names of Irish English

15.00   Final Meeting

15.15   Departure


From john.kirk at UNITE.CO.UK  Wed Jun 21 11:16:11 2000
From: john.kirk at UNITE.CO.UK (John Kirk)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:16:11 +0100
Subject: DIALECT2000: Language Links - Scotland and Ireland
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.121611.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


DIALECT2000
9-16 August 2000
The Queen's University of Belfast

incorporating

6th International Conference
on the Languages of Scotland and Ulster (6ICLSU)
  (in collaboration with
the Forum for Research on the Languages of Scotland and Ulster)



2nd International Conference
on the Languages of Ireland (2ICLI)
(sequel to the First Conference, University of Ulster, Jordanstown, June 1994)


Organisers: Dr. John M. Kirk and Prof. Dónall Ó Baoill
email: J.M.Kirk at qub.ac.uk and d.obaoill at qub.ac.uk
tel. (+)44 (0)28 9027 3815 and (+4) (0)28 9027 3390
fax. (+)44 (0)28 9031 4615

Postal Address:
DIALECT2000
School of English
Queen's University Belfast
Belfast, BT7 1NN
Northern Ireland




Provisional Programme

Wednesday 9 August:                     Arrival
Thursday 10-Friday 11 August:   6ICLSU Papers
Saturday 12 August                      Language, Politics and Ethnolinguistics
Sunday 13 August:                       Linguistic Cultural Tour of
Northern Ireland
Monday 14-Tuesday 15 August     2ICLI Papers
Wednesday 16 August             Depart

  6ICLSU Papers: Draft Timetable (version 6: 15 June 2000)

Thursday 10 August 2000

9.30    Opening Speeches


 Tribute to A.J.Aitken
Isebail Macleod and Marace Dareau

10.15 Tribute to R.J. Gregg
Philip Robinson and Michael Montgomery

10.30   Coffee

11.00   4 Historical Papers
        Kay Muhr (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Common Elements in Irish and Scottish Place-Names
        Susanne Kries (University of Potsdam)
        The Linguistic Evidence for Scandinavian-Scottish Cultural
Contact in the Middle
Ages: The Case of Southwest Scotland
        Marace Dareau (DOST, University of Edinburgh)
        Exploring the Scots/Gaelic Interface
        Volker Mohr (University of Heidelberg)
        Scottish Linguistics, 1595-1872: An Annotated Bibliography

13.00   Lunch

14.00   3 Papers on Phonology
        Volker Mohr (University of Heidelberg)
        Verb Morphology, Aitken's Law and Old Norse: Evidence from
Southern Scots
        Caroline Macafee (University of Aberdeen)
        Lowland Sources of Ulster Scots: Gregg and LAS3 Compared
        Kevin McCafferty (University of Tromsø)
        The mither leid: Mrs M.C. Gregg and the shape of Ulster-Scots

15.30   Tea

16.00   3 Historical Overviews
        Manfred Görlach (University of Cologne)
        Scots: the Outside View?
        Michael Montgomery (University of South Carolina)
        How the Montgomeries Lost the Scots Language
        Karen P. Corrigan (University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne)
        Central Places vs. Enclaves: The Spreead of Northern Dialects
of English/Scots and the Survival
of Irish in County Armagh, N.I. 1600-1900

17.30   Marace Dareau and Isebail MacLeod
        Update on the Scottish Dictionary Projects

18.00   End of Afternoon Session

Evening Reception
  Friday, 11 August

9.30    3 Papers on Stylistics
        Derrick McClure (University of Aberdeen)
        Trom-Laighe or Widdreme: Scotticising Sorley MacLean
        Susana Calvo Alvaro (University of Aberdeen)
        20th Century Popular Scottish Theatre and the Scots Language:
A Sociolinguistic
Study
        Walter Morani (Milan)
        Gendering Oor National Language: 'Queer Scots' in Contemporary Gay and
        Lesbian Theatre in Scotland

11.00   Coffee

11.30   3 Papers on Sociolinguistics
        Ronald Macaulay (Pitzer College)
        Age, Gender, and Social Class Differences in Glasgow Discourse
        Danielle Löw (University of Heidelberg)
        Language Attitudes and Language Use in Pitmedden
        Mari Imamura (University of Aberdeen)
        Methodological Deliberations on Investigating Teachers'
Metalinguistic Awareness and the
Preservation of Scots Dialects

13.00   Lunch

14.00   Gaelic
        Morag MacNeil (Sabal Mor Ostaig)
        Deconstructing and Reconstructing: Gaelic Identities in Shift

14.30   Shetland
        Walter Morani (Milan)
        Scots and Shetlandic in the Poetry of Christine De Luca
        Doreen Waugh (University of Glasgow)
        Conscious Archaisms in Shetland Dialect

15.30   Tea

16.00   Song
        Sheila Douglas (Perth)
        The Scots Language and the Song Tradition
        Steve Sweeney-Turner (University of the Highlands and Islands)
        The Political Parlour: Identity and Ideology in Scottish National Song

17.00   Plenary
        Manfred Görlach (University of Cologne)
        What is Ulster Scots?

18.30   University Reception

19.30   Dinner

20.30   Evening Session:
        Sheila Douglas, Brian Mullen, Len Graham, John Campbell
        Child Ballads and Ireland



Dialect 2000: Language Links
Language, Politics and Ethnolinguistics
Saturday 12 August 2000, Queen's University Belfast

This day-long Symposium will be concerned with language and politics
with particular emphasis on ethnolinguistics within a political
accommodation of equality. We see this as an opportunity to focus on
the growing politicisation of linguistic rights in both Ireland and
Scotland and the response by the various national and devolved
governments. As the Belfast Good Friday Agreement contains a very
strong bill of human rights, we consider it important to consider all
minority groups seeking political redress and who feel subject to
discrimination on grounds of language. We think in particular of the
travelling community, the deaf communities who use Irish Sign
Language as well as British Sign Language, and more generally of
gender and sexual identity. Our hope is that the debate, which tends
to focus on Irish Gaelic and Ulster Scots in the North and on
Scottish Gaelic and Scots in Scotland, might benefit from its
contextualisation within a wider framework of linguistic diversity
and political recognition and accommodation, as, indeed, the Good
Friday Agreement seeks to do.

        The Symposium will be structured into four sessions:


 The Symposium will open by several presentations dealing with
institutional and political arrangements dealing with these issues in
place in Northern Ireland before and leading up to the Good Friday
Agreement. So far, we have received commitments from Dónall O Riagáin
(General Secretary, European Bureau for Lesser-Used Languages) and
Mari FitzDuff (Director, INCORE, University of Ulster, and former
Chief executive, NI Community Relations Council). Further invitations
are still being considered.


 The second session will be devoted to statements by constituent
spokespersons and activists seeking to show that there has been real
or perceived discrimination of a kind that can be attributed to
language of one sort or another, and with reference to the Good
Friday Agreement appealing to the new devolved government for
assistance and support. So far we have received commitments from the
non-indigenous language communities, the deaf community, the women's
community, and the gay community. Invitations to the Irish Gaelic
community, the Ulster Scots community, and the Travellers community
are still being considered.


 The third session will be devoted to statements and responses by
Ministers of devolved government about the way forward and the better
future for all of us. So far, Sean Farran, Minister for Higher
Education, has committed himself to speaking, and Dermot Nesbitt,
Junior Minister in the Office of First and Deputy First Minister, and
Michael McGimpsey, Minister for Culture, arts and Leisure, are
reconsidering the invitations now that they have resumed their roles.
In addition, we hope to have a spokesperson from the new NI Human
Rights Commission and from the two new language agencies forming the
North-South Implementation Body on Language.


 The final session will be devoted to discussion between all
speakers, participants, and any other invited guests.
  2ICLI Papers (Draft 6: 15 June 2000)

Monday 14 August 2000

9.00-10.30      Plenary
        Markku Filppula (University of Joensuu)
        Irish Influence in Hiberno-English: Some Problems of Argumentation

10.30   Coffee

11.00-13.00     5 Papers on Contact and Syntax
        Karen P. Corrigan (University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne)
        Languages in Contact: Some Solutions for Northern Hiberno-English?
        Kevin McCafferty (University of Tromsø)
        Is it already dropping the future and now forgetting the
recent past we'll be after? Change in the
Irish English be after V-ing construction
        Terence Odlin (Ohio State University)
        Substrate Influence and Linguistic Identity: The Cases of
Ebonics and Anglo-Irish
        Patricia Ronan (University of Marburg)
        On the Progressive in Hiberno-English

13.00   Lunch

14.00   5 Papers on Irish Syntax, Phonology, and Proverbs
        Aidan Doyle (University of Gdansk)
        Complex Predicates in Irish and English
        Peter McQuillan (University of Notre Dame)
        Language, Culture and History: the Case of Ir. duchas
        Natalia A. Nikolaeva (Lomonossov Moscow State University)
        On the Phonology of the O.Ir. Names Amlaib, Ímar, Tomrair
        Brian O Curnain (Institute of Advanced Studies, Dublin)
        The New Ir. 3rd pers. pl. form <adar>
        Fionnuala Carson Williams  (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Quotation Proverbs in Ireland

16.30   Tea

17.00
        Michael Montgomery (University of South Carolina)
        Early Modern English in Ulster
        Alison Henry (University of Ulster at Jordanstown)
        Expletives and agreement in Belfast English

18.00    End of afternoon session

Evening Reception


  Tuesday 15 August 2000

9.00    Special Session on Travellers Language
        Mary Burke (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Simply bad English with some bad Irish thrown in: The
Ambiguous Status of Shelta in Ireland
        Mícheál Ó hAodha (University of Limerick)
        The acquisition of Cant "slang" by teenagers in Galway city
        Martin McDonough
        tba
        Sally Flynn
        tba
        Sinead Ni Shuinear
        A History of Academic Treatment of Traveller Language
        Sheila Douglas
Travellers Cant in Scotland

13.00 Lunch

14.00   Special Session on Language, Politics and Education
        Liam Andrews (Belfast)
        The Politics of the Irish-language Movement in Northern
Ireland: the 1920s and the 1930s
        Aodán Mac Póilin (Ultach Trust, Belfast)
        Shotgun Marriages: Cross-border (Irish/Ulster-Scots) Language Body
        Simone Zwickl (University of Heidelberg)
        Language Attitudes towards the Irish Language and towards
Dialect across the      Northern Irish/Irish Border
        Brian Lambkin (Centre for Migration Studies, Ulster-American Folk Park)
        Migration, Education for Linguistic Diversity and the
Introduction of Citizenship Education to
Schools in Northern Ireland
        Fionnuala Carson Williams (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Terms, Phrases, the Local Press and the Northern Ireland Conflict
        Malcolm Scott (Ultach Trust, Belfast)
        The Bishop, the Highlanders and the Fanatick's': William
King, DD, and Immigration from
Argyll and the Isles
        Eugene McKendry (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Modern Languages Education Policies in Ireland and Britain
        Alison Henry and Cathy Finlay (University of Ulster
        Linguistic Discrimination: Local Language Varieties,
Education and   Employment in Northern
Ireland

18.30   End of Afternoon Session

Evening Reception
  Wednesday 16 August

9.00-10.30      Plenary
        Raymond Hickey (University of Essen)
        Ireland as a Linguistic Area
10.30   Simone Zwickl (University of Heidelberg)
        Dialect Use in Armagh and Monaghan: Linguistic and
Extralinguistic Factors

11.00   Coffee

11.30   3 Papers on Phonology
        Geoff Lindsey and John Harris (University College London)
        Irish English Dentals: Phonetic Exponence versus Enhancement
        Dónall Ó Baoill (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        ng-deletion: an Ulster-Irish Feature?
        Kevin McCafferty (University of Tromsø)
        (London)Derry English: the last word

13.00   Lunch

14.00   Ireland
        Jeffrey A. Kallen (TCD) and John M. Kirk (QUB)
        ICE Ireland: A First Report
        Goodith White (University of Leeds)
        The Names of Irish English

15.00   Final Meeting

15.15   Departure

  DIALECT2000: 9-16 August 2000 The Queen's University of Belfast

        The conference fees comprise £25.00 registration and
administrration (non-refundable) and £75.00 participation (refundable
if cancelled in advance). The participation fee will include all
events, morning coffees and afternoon teas, any organised
transportation, the ballad recital, the coach tour on 13 August, and
a copy of any proceedings.
        The full-board packagedeal runs from Dinner on 9 August to
Lunch on 16 August. We hope as many as possible will be residential
(in brand-new hall of residence accommodation) and book on a
full-board basis.Dinner, Bed and Breakfast and Lunch is UK£50.00 per
day (no reduction for meals not taken), so that the full 7-day
package will be (7 x UK£50.00 = UK£350.00. Each 24-hour period from
dinner through to lunch may be booked @£50.00 per day. Please
indicate number of nights and dates of arrival and departure.
        Non-residential participants will pay the conference feeand
make their own arrangements for meals, although lunch and dinner will
likely be available if required. Details later.

  REGISTRATION FORM

Name __________________________________________________

Institution _______________________________________________

Address





Email ___________________________________________________

_______ I enclose UK£25.00 non-refundable Registration Fee (payable
to "The         Queen's University of Belfast").

Please invoice me for the following:

EITHER
______  Participation Fee plus full package from Wednesday, 9th to
                        Wednesday, 16th August, totalling £425.00
OR
______  Participation Fee (£75.00) plus part package for _____ nights
(@                      £50.00 per night) from __________, ___ August
to __________, ____             August, totalling _____________ .
OR
______  Participation Fee only £75.00 (I will make my own
arrangements fir                accommodation and meals.)


Signed _____________________________  Date _______________



Please return to Dr. John M. Kirk (DIALECT2000), School of English,
The Queen's University of Belfast, Belfast, BT7 1NN, Northern
Ireland, by 31.5.2000.






--
John Kirk
Co-Organiser, Dialect2000: Language Links
School of English
Queen's University Belfast
Email: J.M.Kirk at qub.ac.uk
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From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Wed Jun 21 12:08:03 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:08:03 +0100
Subject: GuideStar report on ADS
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.130803.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> From:         AAllan at AOL.COM
> Nonprofits have the opportunity to post information about their program and
> goals, and I just did that for ADS. If you're curious, go to
> www.guidestar.org
> and just type in "American Dialect Society."
>
> If you see anything that needs correction, let me know. - Allan Metcalf

I think it's too bad that the Guidestar summary says:

The American Dialect Society is an association of scholars and others
interested in studying the English language in North America, past and
present.

whereas the ADS site adds:
- and of other languages, or dialects of other languages, influencing it or
influenced by it.


It's probably that way because of a word limit, but I think it makes us sound
like guardians of English.

Lynne


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Wed Jun 21 13:12:43 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:12:43 -0400
Subject: outdated metaphors
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000620160708.007d5370@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.091243.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Robert S. Wachal wrote:

> Anyone interested in joining me to develop a publishable list of out-dated
> metaphors,  especially those caused by the obsolescence of things
> mechanical, e.g., "she could suck the knob off a gearshift lever."?

I don't know that that's obsolescent. I've heard that within the past
year. (Well, the subject was 'he'.) Automatic cars still have gearshifts
with knobs on the end.


--- Steve K.


From vneufeldt at M-W.COM  Wed Jun 21 13:12:12 2000
From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:12:12 -0400
Subject: outdated metaphors
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000620160708.007d5370@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.091212.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hey, what's outdated about gearshift levers?

Victoria
vneufeldt at m-w.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Robert S. Wachal
> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 5:07 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: outdated metaphors
>
>
> Anyone interested in joining me to develop a publishable list of out-dated
> metaphors,  especially those caused by the obsolescence of things
> mechanical, e.g., "she could suck the knob off a gearshift lever."?
>
> Bob
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 21 15:54:36 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:54:36 -0400
Subject: outdated metaphors
In-Reply-To: <000201bfdb82$506fd140$282b62ce@vneufeldt.m-w.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.115436.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:12 AM -0400 6/21/00, Victoria Neufeldt wrote:
>Hey, what's outdated about gearshift levers?
>
>Victoria
>vneufeldt at m-w.com

The levers aren't obsolete--it's just that all their knobs have long since
been sucked off...


larry

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
>> Of Robert S. Wachal
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 5:07 PM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: outdated metaphors
>>
>>
>> Anyone interested in joining me to develop a publishable list of out-dated
>> metaphors,  especially those caused by the obsolescence of things
>> mechanical, e.g., "she could suck the knob off a gearshift lever."?
>>
>> Bob
>>


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Wed Jun 21 17:09:59 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:09:59 -0700
Subject: "Kidpreneur" and its ilk
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.100959.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And someone who starts a marksmanship and animal tracking company is a
hunterpreneur.

Argh!  Check out the "Dark and Stormy Night" category of the Bulwer-Lytton
contest winners of '99:

http://www.bulwer-lytton.com
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Kid" by Aardman Animation


From bawals at NYTIMES.COM  Wed Jun 21 19:01:32 2000
From: bawals at NYTIMES.COM (Barclay Walsh)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:01:32 -0400
Subject: rogue states
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.150132.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Dialect Society -

I'm hoping someone can help - we are  looking for predecessor terms to the
phrase "rogue states."

What were the catch phrases from past decades used to lump together outlaw
nations?

Appreciate any help you can give

Barclay Walsh
Research Supervisor
DC Bureau- NY Times


From michael at RFA.ORG  Wed Jun 21 19:37:36 2000
From: michael at RFA.ORG (Michael)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:37:36 -0400
Subject: rogue states
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000621145800.00c5fe90@mailgate.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.153736.0400.>

the consensus here at my office is that before 'rogue
states' was used, it was either 'terrorist states' or
'the radical entente', the former being seen much more
often than the latter.

best,
michael
============================================
           michael hunter horlick
               michael at rfa.org
--------------------------------------------
      Sileann do chara agus do namhaid
       nach bhfaighidh tú bá choiche.
                        - Irish Proverb
============================================
-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Barclay Walsh
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 3:02 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: rogue states


Dear Dialect Society -

I'm hoping someone can help - we are  looking for predecessor terms to the
phrase "rogue states."

What were the catch phrases from past decades used to lump together outlaw
nations?

Appreciate any help you can give

Barclay Walsh
Research Supervisor
DC Bureau- NY Times


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Wed Jun 21 20:05:32 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:05:32 -0400
Subject: umlauts
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.160532.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry Popik write to ADS-L:

<<<<<
    From LUCHOWS (there's an umlaut here, just like FRESHENS yogurt, to add
to that HAAGEN DAZS discussion) GERMAN COOKBOOK (1952) by Leonard Jan
Mitchell, pg. 190:
>>>>>

Not "just like" Freshens or Haagen Dazs, because the umlaut on the "u" in
"Luchows" (or "Luchow's", I'm not sure) is genuine. Even though everyone
pronounced it as if it were the name of a Chinese restaurant (/'lu ,tSauz/), it
was a family name, I'm pretty sure.

Hmm... Where's the name from, though, and how did it get there? That sure looks
like a Slavic ending on it. I'm going to cc: this to the American Name Society
list.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Wed Jun 21 21:10:47 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:10:47 -0500
Subject: orthographic -z
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.161047.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm looking into names and other words which use the _-z_ spelling in
place of standard orthography's _-s_:  BoyzIIMen, (pirated
soft-)warez, Limp Bizkit, etc.  If you know of such names/term, can
you send them to me?

Thank you!

Greg Pulliam
pulliam at iit.edu
--
-

Gregory J. Pulliam
Illinois Institute of Technology
Lewis Department of Humanities
Chicago, IL   60616
pulliam at iit.edu


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Jun 21 21:15:56 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:15:56 -0700
Subject: umlauts
In-Reply-To: <85256905.006E4418.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.141556.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There are lots of German family names ending in -ow.  Such names are
concentrated in the area of the former Prussia, and I assume they are a
remnant of the now extinct Slavic language that was once spoken in the area.

Peter Mc.

--On Wed, Jun 21, 2000 4:05 PM -0400 Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:


>
> Not "just like" Freshens or Haagen Dazs, because the umlaut on the "u" in
> "Luchows" (or "Luchow's", I'm not sure) is genuine. Even though everyone
> pronounced it as if it were the name of a Chinese restaurant (/'lu
> ,tSauz/), it was a family name, I'm pretty sure.
>
> Hmm... Where's the name from, though, and how did it get there? That sure
> looks like a Slavic ending on it. I'm going to cc: this to the American
> Name Society list.
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 21 21:55:01 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:55:01 EDT
Subject: Chicago; Beefing
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.175501.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   A few random items here.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CHICAGO

   From the CHICAGO EVENING JOURNAL, 18 February 1886, pg. 2, col. 3:

   Foreign visitors at first call it Chick-ag-o; others call it Chy-cag-o;
and still others Chee-cay-go.  The "correct thing" is She-caw-go, and don't
you forget it.

   From the CHICAGO EVENING JOURNAL, 6 January 1886, pg. 2, col. 3:

   The "filosofical" _Tribune_ is more "thoroly" reformatory in its
"orthografy" than the most advanced "pedagog."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BEEF

   RHHDAS has "beef" (to cry out, talk loudly) from 1812 and 1866; "beef"
(complaint, argument) is from 1899.
   From the CHICAGO TIMES, 5 August 1885, pg. 4, col. 6:

   The cattlemen have not received much encouragement at Washington.  There
is no use of "beefing;" they will have to vacate.


From wade at PUBLIC.ZBPTT.SD.CN  Thu Jun 22 01:37:54 2000
From: wade at PUBLIC.ZBPTT.SD.CN (Xu Wei)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:37:54 +0800
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.093754.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

UNSUBSCRIBED
wade263 at 263.net
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From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 22 13:37:23 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:37:23 EDT
Subject: Secret languages
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.093723.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Anyone care to reply?
To: nberjaoui at hotmail.com
as well as perhaps ADS-L. - Allan Metcalf

-------------------------

Dear Sir,
I am seeking contact with professors that would like to cooperate in the
field of "Secret Languages" (Language Games).
Wishes,
Nasser BERJAOUI.

Nasser BERJAOUI (Pr. Dr. Dr.)
Secret Languages Seminar
Linguistics Division
Department of English
Faculty of Letters and Human Sciences
El-Jadida, 24000, Morocco.
Mobile P. : + 212 1 43 34 15.
Home P. : + 212 3 34 19 11.
Home F. : + 212 3 34 19 11.
E-mails : nberjaoui at hotmail.com /
nasserberjaoui at yahoo.com /
nberjaoui at usa.net
Home Address : 32, Cohen, K. B. D.
El-Jadida, 24000, Morocco.


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Jun 22 13:53:24 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:53:24 +0100
Subject: Secret languages
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.145324.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Sir,
I am seeking contact with professors that would like to cooperate in the
field of "Secret Languages" (Language Games).
Wishes,
Nasser BERJAOUI.

There have been several threads on this topic on the Linguist List.
Archives at linguistlist.org.

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Thu Jun 22 14:28:28 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:28:28 -0400
Subject: Dialect2000 conference notice
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.102828.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mike Salovesh posted this. Even his fix came through with some chaff, like
"Manfred G?rlach" (question mark for o-umlaut) and question marks for bullets.

Also of interest are these lines, in which I have replaced equal signs with hash
marks:

 #85 The second session will be devoted to statements by constituent
 spokespersons and activists seeking to show that there has been real
 or perceived discrimination of a kind that can be attributed to
 language of one sort or another, and with reference to the Good
 #46riday Agreement appealing to the new devolved government for

and these:

         The conference fees comprise #A325.00 registration and
 administrration (non-refundable) and #A375.00 participation (refundable

The escape mechanism disguises the actual costs (25.00 and 75.00 pounds
sterling), here and elsewhere in the notice. I assume that the double-r
represents an authentic burr!

-- Mark

>>>>>
Date:    Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:57:23 -0500
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dialect2000 conference notice

Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>
> Too bad the information wasn't sent in readable form. All I got was pages
> of meaningless numbers-and-letters.
>
>         Rudy

This may be a little better.  Enjoy!

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!

N.B.: The original text, in rich text format, leaned a lot on changing
fonts, boldface, and italics for organization and emphasis.  Since we
can't do that in plain ASCII text, I took the liberty of adding lots of
paragraph breaks for clarity.  Except for that, the following is
unchanged from the attachment you couldn't see in meaningful form:
<<<<<


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Jun 22 15:27:09 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:27:09 +0100
Subject: wsj article
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.162709.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 A while ago, people were talking about a Wall St Journal article re the
hirability of linguists.  I'd like to use that in an admissions day
talk--but cannot find a way to get to the article on-line without paying
for a subscription to WSJ.  Is it accessible for free somewhere?

Thanks in advance,
Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Thu Jun 22 16:36:19 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:36:19 -0400
Subject: wsj article
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.123619.0400.>

Lynn Murphy,

I happen to have a clipping faxed to me by my agents in New York. If you
don't get it free somewhere, I could fax it to you. I guess the faxing
charge would be negligible.

Best.
Tom Paikeday
===================

Lynne Murphy wrote:

>  A while ago, people were talking about a Wall St Journal article re the
> hirability of linguists.  I'd like to use that in an admissions day
> talk--but cannot find a way to get to the article on-line without paying
> for a subscription to WSJ.  Is it accessible for free somewhere?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Lynne
>
> Dr M Lynne Murphy
> Lecturer in Linguistics
> School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
> University of Sussex
> Brighton BN1 9QH


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Thu Jun 22 17:23:46 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:23:46 -0500
Subject: wsj article
In-Reply-To: <E1358qG-0000PN-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.122346.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Lynne,

I subscribe to the on-line version which is less than $6 a month.  I'd be
happy to try retrieving it for  you if I had more info as to where and when
it appeared.

Bob


At 04:27 PM 6/22/00 +0100, you wrote:
> A while ago, people were talking about a Wall St Journal article re the
>hirability of linguists.  I'd like to use that in an admissions day
>talk--but cannot find a way to get to the article on-line without paying
>for a subscription to WSJ.  Is it accessible for free somewhere?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Lynne
>
>Dr M Lynne Murphy
>Lecturer in Linguistics
>School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
>University of Sussex
>Brighton BN1 9QH
>
>


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 22 17:54:09 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:54:09 EDT
Subject: ADS Newsletter 32.2
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.135409.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At long last, the "May" newsletter of the American Dialect Society is at the
printer. It will go out by first-class mail to ADS members early next week.

I apologize for the delay. It wasn't intentional, but it did allow me to add
seven pages of memorial tribute to Fred Cassidy.

You don't have to wait to get your copy in the mail. Grant Barrett has posted
it on the ADS website, where you can download it using the free Adobe
Acrobat. The address, you know, is

http://www.americandialect.org/

- Allan Metcalf


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 22 18:38:02 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:38:02 -0400
Subject: Reference Proposals for Yale Univ. Press
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.143802.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am a consultant on reference publishing to Yale University Press.  The
Press is interested in expanding its reference publishing program, and I
would welcome suggestions of reference works of high quality for YUP to
consider acquiring.  I would discuss particularly promising ideas with the
Press, after which they might invite submission of a proposal.

In addition to hearing from prospective authors/editors, I would be
interested in hearing from others who have suggestions of needed reference
works to be compiled by someone other than themselves.

Fred Shapiro

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Thu Jun 22 19:44:26 2000
From: madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:44:26 -0700
Subject: wsj article
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000622122346.007d0b00@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.124426.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I subscribe to the on-line version which is less than $6 a month.  I'd be
> happy to try retrieving it for  you if I had more info as to where and when
> it appeared.

this is the article she wants.  part of it was posted on on another list.

May 30, 2000

Tech Center

No Longer Just Eggheads,
Linguists Leap to the Net


By DANIEL GOLDEN

sylvia swift
madonna at socrates.berkeley.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 23 00:46:58 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:46:58 -0400
Subject: Data Haven; Web Bug
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.204658.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DATA HAVEN

"Haven.  I'm in haven."
--Fred Astaire (sort of)

   A tiny platform off the coast of England is the "Principality of Sealand."  On June 5, 2000, Sealand and Havenco Ltd. announced the "world's first real data haven."
   There are 39 hits for this story, all after June 5, 2000.  Dow Jones had 420 hits for "data haven," but "data haven't" accounts for a lot of the hits.
   From the GLOBE AND MAIL, 4 July 1981, pg. B18:

   Use of a negative sales tax could create a "data haven" for hundreds of foreign multi-nationals, with the accompanying increase in the number of Canadian jobs.

   Maybe we can write to "Sealanders" and ask how they pronounce "data."

--------------------------------------------------------
WEB BUG

   Another "bug" hit, FWIW.
   Today's (6-22-2000) WALL STREET JOURNAL has "Clinton Tells Drug Office to Stop Using 'Web Bug'" on pg. B13, col. 2:

   The White House ordered its Office of National Drug Control Policy to stop using a secretive technique that could track and identify visitors to its antidrug Internet site for children. (...) A spokesman for the drug policy office, Donald Maple, acknowledged use of the technology, known as a "web bug," but said no personal information was collected about visitors.
   (Col.3--ed.) When people visited the site, freevibe.com, their browser software loaded without warning an invisible image retrieved from Doubleclick computers.  This process (Col.4--ed.) was recorded by Doubleclick and permitted the company to implant a small data file called a "cookie" to identify each visitor, or it allowed Doubleclick to read an identifier that it had placed previously with visitors to the drug site or elsewhere.


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 23 01:49:21 2000
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:49:21 -0400
Subject: Data Haven; Web Bug
In-Reply-To: <200006230046.UAA25722@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.214921.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I believe the term "data haven" was coined by cyberpunk sci-fi author Bruce
Sterling in his 1989 book _Islands in the Net_. This very prescient (but
rather clumsily-written) book foresaw that the "Internet reads censorship as
damage and routes around it" (to steal a phrase from cryptographer John
Gilmore). I.e., if a country outlaws some form of activity on the Net, that
activity will simply move offshore.

When I was researching a piece for the Industry Standard on the online porn
biz, one porn provider told me that if the Communications Decency Act had
been withheld, he and many other providers already had servers outside the
U.S., ready to go. "With the touch of a button," he told me, "all of our
operations would have move offshore."

> From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:46:58 -0400
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Data Haven; Web Bug
>
> DATA HAVEN
>
> "Haven.  I'm in haven."
> --Fred Astaire (sort of)
>
> A tiny platform off the coast of England is the "Principality of Sealand."  On
> June 5, 2000, Sealand and Havenco Ltd. announced the "world's first real data
> haven."
> There are 39 hits for this story, all after June 5, 2000.  Dow Jones had 420
> hits for "data haven," but "data haven't" accounts for a lot of the hits.
> From the GLOBE AND MAIL, 4 July 1981, pg. B18:
>
> Use of a negative sales tax could create a "data haven" for hundreds of
> foreign multi-nationals, with the accompanying increase in the number of
> Canadian jobs.
>
> Maybe we can write to "Sealanders" and ask how they pronounce "data."
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> WEB BUG
>
> Another "bug" hit, FWIW.
> Today's (6-22-2000) WALL STREET JOURNAL has "Clinton Tells Drug Office to Stop
> Using 'Web Bug'" on pg. B13, col. 2:
>
> The White House ordered its Office of National Drug Control Policy to stop
> using a secretive technique that could track and identify visitors to its
> antidrug Internet site for children. (...) A spokesman for the drug policy
> office, Donald Maple, acknowledged use of the technology, known as a "web
> bug," but said no personal information was collected about visitors.
> (Col.3--ed.) When people visited the site, freevibe.com, their browser
> software loaded without warning an invisible image retrieved from Doubleclick
> computers.  This process (Col.4--ed.) was recorded by Doubleclick and
> permitted the company to implant a small data file called a "cookie" to
> identify each visitor, or it allowed Doubleclick to read an identifier that it
> had placed previously with visitors to the drug site or elsewhere.
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 23 02:05:11 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:05:11 -0400
Subject: Devil's Food; Bluffin
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.220511.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DEVIL'S FOOD

   Here's the Devil that I promised.  Jesse Sheidlower wants publishing info--the devil's in the details.
   From THE CAPITOL COOK BOOK: A SELECTION OF TESTED RECIPES (1899) by The Ladies of Albert Sidney Johnson Chapter, Daughters of the Confederacy, compiled by Mrs. E. G. Myers (Austin, Texas), Von Boeckmann, Schutze & Company, Printers, pg. 123:

   _DEVIL'S FOOD._
One-half cup of butter.
Two cups of light brown sugar.
One-half cup of sour cream.
Two eggs.
Three cups of sifted flour.
One ounce of chocolate dissolved in one-quarter of boiling water; mix in batter.
One level teaspoonful of soda, mixed in sour cream.
Bake in three layers.
Filling: Two cups of brown sugar, 3/4 cup of sweet milk, butter the size of an egg.  Put on stove and stir till it comes to a boil, take off, whip till cool, and flavor with vanilla.
MRS. GEORGE WALLING.

   _DEVIL'S FOOD._
One half-cup of butter.
One cup of sugar.
One cup of milk.
Two and one-half cups of flour.
Two teaspoonfuls of baking powder.
One whole egg and one yolk.
One teaspoonful of vanilla.
One-half a cake bitter chocolate.
One cup of sugar.
One=half cup of milk.
Yolk of 1 egg.
Put this in a pan and set on the back of the stove; heat until chcolate is melted.  DO not boil.  Add to batter.  Bake in layers, and put together with white frosting.
MISS ELLA BEDELL

--------------------------------------------------------
BLUFFIN

   Blimpies serves a "Bluffin," which is an egg, ham, and cheese sandwich on an English muffin.  I didn't see a "TM" by it.  A Dow Jones check shows only 7 "Blimpies" hits--from about 1990.


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Fri Jun 23 03:01:28 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:01:28 -0500
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.220128.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I need to come up with a solid dozen pairs of the soda/pop, bag/sack,
or bureau/dresser variety for a DARE-related project for my summer
students.  The catch, of course, is that the pairs can only begin
with A-O, so the first two examples I gave above won't work--only the
last one will.

I'd appreciate either contributions or ideas about how to find these.

Thank you.
--
-
Greg

greg at pulliam.org
http://www.pulliam.org


From LJT777 at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 23 04:11:27 2000
From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:11:27 EDT
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.001127.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

cart/buggy?


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Fri Jun 23 04:18:42 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:18:42 -0700
Subject: DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <200006230403.VAA12947@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.211842.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greg--

        One (more than a pair) that comes to mind is pancakes/flapjacks/
batter cakes (old Southern usage). It's amazing how many others come after
"O" (see-saw/teeter-totter; mosquito hawk/snake doctor/devil's darning
needle).
        You might try croker (~crocus) sack/burlap bag; firefly/lightning
bug.

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 23 04:25:54 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:25:54 EDT
Subject: More Mexican food
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.002554.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CHIMECHANGAS

     From SUNSET magazine, November 1974, pg. 228:

Crisp, brown, delicious packages..._chimechangas_
   Chimechangas are a Mexican specialty from the state of Sonora, just south
of the border.  Like burritos, they're made by wrapping wheat flour tortillas
around a spicy meat or bean filling.  But, unlike burritos, chimechangas
(chee-mee-changas) are fried until they're golden brown and crisp.  (Recipe
follows--ed.)

   Sonora (Mexico) or Tucson (New Mexico)?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MEXICAN PIZZA

   From SUNSET magazine, June 1978, pg. 170:

Mexican pizza...bean and cheese, with taco sauce, sour cream
   Pizza takes on a new nationality when it's spiced with Mexcian seasonings
and topped with crunchy condiments.  (Recipe follows--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MEXICAN CHOCOLATE

   From the LADIES' HOME JOURNAL, April 1935, pg. 92, col. 2:

   The Mexican chocolate is made as follows: While the milk and chocolate are
boiling, sticks of cinnamon are added.  The hot liquid is then poured into a
tall pitcher and a slender pole of aromatic wood carved with grooves and
rings (see photograph above) is placed inside the pitcher and whirled between
the palms of the hands until the chocolate foams.  Small cup-size dashers are
also used.  If a _molinillo_ of aromatic wood like those used by the Mexicans
is not available, any small dasher may be susbstituted; the result, while not
quite what Mexican women get, will be delicious and different.

   From THE SAGA OF TEXAS COOKERY (The Encino Press, Austin, TX, 1973) by
Sarah Morgan, pg. 24:

   MEXICAN CHOCOLATE can be had in most Mexican food stores and in some
supermarkets.  If it is not obtainable, use the same amount of sweet
chocolate called for in the following recipe and add 1/2 teaspoon cinnamon to
the mixture.  Some of the best cacao, or cocoa, came from the state of
Tabasco in Mexico.  In the early days of our cookery the settlers would grind
the cacao bean on the metate.  A fire under the metate helped to take out the
grease from the bean and assured a smooth blend with other ingredients.
   TO MAKE about 6 servings: Grate 6 squares of Mexican chocolate and
dissolve in 1/2 cup hot milk.  Add 6 cups milk and boil for about 5 minutes.
Remove from the fire and cool.  Beat the yolks of 2 eggs and continue beating
while combining the two mixtures.  Beat all to a froth before serving.  Sugar
may be added according to taste.  Serve hot or cold.


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Fri Jun 23 06:47:55 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 23:47:55 -0700
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <p04310100b578826295ae@[24.131.175.239]>
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.234755.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Monkey bars/Jungle Gym?
Firefly/Lightening Bug?
Sofa/Couch?

Rima


From paulfrank at WANADOO.FR  Fri Jun 23 07:03:24 2000
From: paulfrank at WANADOO.FR (Paul Frank)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:03:24 +0200
Subject: Thanks
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.090324.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm writing to thank you guys for this wonderful list. I've very much
enjoyed recent threads on written accents and American cooking. I hope I
won't be wasting bandwidth if I share with you something I just came across
in Letter's from the Editor: The New Yorker's Harold Ross, edited by Thomas
Kunkel (Modern Library, 2000). This excerpt of a letter to Dave Chasen,
dated September 20, 1937, shows that Ross was not just full of horse sense
when it came to language but also to food:

"I now wish earnestly to recall my earlier suggestions that you drop all the
nonsense of having a French, or half-French restaurant and French, or
half-French menu. I think your present situation is grotesque. You start out
to open a barbecue, then serve steaks, chops, etc., and go into a more or
less all-around American restaurant, then you get in the hand of a gang that
wants you to imitate '21' and a French chef and delusions of grandeur. I
think you veered wrong when you went in for the Continental stuff, which
isn't in your line. My advice is be yourself: stick to your barbecue stuff,
your steaks, chops, corned beef (which I don't see on the menu despite all
the dust-up in New York when you were here) and the Dinty Moore line of
stuff. Get out a homely American menu, serving top-notch stuff and let it go
at that.Your French spelling is fantastic. You have at least fifteen or
twenty errors in your French, which ought in itself to be evidence that
you'd do better to drop the French language and leave it lie. You, or your
printer, or your chef, or whoever got out this menu can make enough mistakes
in English without tackling the rich field of French. These errors are
apparent to me, and I'm no French scholar; for all I know you haven't got a
single God-damned French word right. You've dropped 'con Carne' from your
'Chili' in favor of a mess of pottage."

It's been said before, but it bears saying again. It's a real shame that
Ross is no longer editor of the New Yorker. In his own writing, Ross rarely
had to worry about written accents and other diacritical marks, because he
avoided pretentious language like the plague. Though I suspect that if his
"shock-proof, built-in shit detector" had been on all the time, he would not
have written "I now wish earnestly to recall..." When in doubt, split that
infinitive.

Paul
________________________________________
Paul Frank
Business, financial and legal translation
>From German, French, Chinese, Spanish,
Italian, Dutch and Portuguese into English
paulfrank at wanadoo.fr  - 74500 Thollon, France


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 23 10:27:47 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 06:27:47 -0400
Subject: Data Haven; Web Bug
In-Reply-To: <B5783A61.C38%garethb2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.062747.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Gareth Branwyn wrote:

> I believe the term "data haven" was coined by cyberpunk sci-fi author Bruce
> Sterling in his 1989 book _Islands in the Net_. This very prescient (but

No, Nexis has citations in the Economist from 1978 and 1981.

Fred Shapiro


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Fri Jun 23 11:32:59 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 07:32:59 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <p04310100b578826295ae@[24.131.175.239]>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.073259.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

lighting bug/firefly
andiron/firedog
hoagie/grinder (alas, sub, wedge, etc, are post - P)
corncake/johnnycake
dragon fly/darning neele, mosquito hawk (and numerous others)


check dare for the insanity behind mantel/mantelshelf/mantelpiece -- that
might be an extra credit problem.

check dare for the fatwood group, i forget what the other regional terms
are off the top of my head



--- Steve K.


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 23 12:51:10 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:51:10 EDT
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.085110.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

frosting : icing

See also the list of Regional Counterparts in Craig Carver's _American
Regional Dialects_ (Ann Arbor, U of Michigan Press 1987).

- Allan Metcalf


From ftaeditor at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 23 13:23:46 2000
From: ftaeditor at HOTMAIL.COM (FTA Editor)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:23:46 CDT
Subject: Letter to Dr. Laura
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.082346.CDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have
learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as
many
people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for
example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an
abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however,
regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing
odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the
odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus
21:7.
In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period
of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I
have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us.
A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can
you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly
states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination
(Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree.
Can you settle this?

Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect
in my sight. I have to admit that I wear prescription glasses. Does my
vision
have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can
help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
unchanging.

ED NOTE: If you'd like to send this letter to Dr. Laura you'll have to use
regular old mail. On her website it says "Dr. Laura does not have email." To
bad, here's her address, but don't just print out this page and mail the
above letter. Take the time to copy and paste the letter into something else
and add who it's from (who cares if it's a real name) then send it.

Dr. Laura Schlessinger
P.O. Box 8120
Van Nuys, CA 91409
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Jun 23 13:27:02 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:27:02 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.092702.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is Wentworth's American Dialect Dictionary Available.  It has examples
after O, I am sure.

Regards,
David

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Fri Jun 23 13:39:07 2000
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:39:07 -0400
Subject: Letter to Dr. Laura
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.093907.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Priceless! (For everything else, there's Mastercard)

Bob

FTA Editor wrote:
>
> Dear Dr. Laura:
>
> Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have
> learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as
> many
> people as I can.


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Jun 23 13:39:08 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:39:08 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.093908.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Try thingemajig ~ thingumbob .....

theirselves ~ theyselves

stoop ~ galley ~ porch  ~ piazza ~ veranda

Regards,
David

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From mssmith at BOONE.NET  Sat Jun 24 13:51:32 2000
From: mssmith at BOONE.NET (susan)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:51:32 -0400
Subject: Letter to Dr. Laura
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.095132.0400.>

Beautiful!
Susan Gilbert

----------
> From: FTA Editor <ftaeditor at HOTMAIL.COM>
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Letter to Dr. Laura
> Date: Friday, June 23, 2000 9:23 AM
>
> Dear Dr. Laura:
>
> Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have
> learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as
> many
> people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle,
for
> example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be
an
> abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however,
> regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
>
> When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing
> odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the
> odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?
>
> I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus
> 21:7.
> In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
>
> I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period
> of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I
tell? I
> have tried asking, but most women take offense.
>
> Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around
us.
> A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians.
Can
> you clarify?
>
> I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
clearly
> states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him
myself?
>
> A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination
> (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't
agree.
> Can you settle this?
>
> Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
> defect
> in my sight. I have to admit that I wear prescription glasses. Does my
> vision
> have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
>
> I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you
can
> help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
> unchanging.
>
> ED NOTE: If you'd like to send this letter to Dr. Laura you'll have to
use
> regular old mail. On her website it says "Dr. Laura does not have email."
To
> bad, here's her address, but don't just print out this page and mail the
> above letter. Take the time to copy and paste the letter into something
else
> and add who it's from (who cares if it's a real name) then send it.
>
> Dr. Laura Schlessinger
> P.O. Box 8120
> Van Nuys, CA 91409
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
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From BBriggs at LATTE.MEMPHIS.EDU  Fri Jun 23 14:32:33 2000
From: BBriggs at LATTE.MEMPHIS.EDU (Bonnie Osborn Briggs)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:32:33 -0500
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.093233.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about  -
behavior - deportment
closet - chiffarobe

Bonnie Briggs
The University of Memphis

Greg Pulliam wrote:
>
> I need to come up with a solid dozen pairs of the soda/pop, bag/sack,
> or bureau/dresser variety for a DARE-related project for my summer
> students.  The catch, of course, is that the pairs can only begin
> with A-O, so the first two examples I gave above won't work--only the
> last one will.
>
> I'd appreciate either contributions or ideas about how to find these.
>
> Thank you.
> --
> -
> Greg
>
> greg at pulliam.org
> http://www.pulliam.org


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Jun 23 14:46:35 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:46:35 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.104635.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

spud ~ tater

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From billk at ATLAS.UGA.EDU  Fri Jun 23 15:15:36 2000
From: billk at ATLAS.UGA.EDU (Bill Kretzschmar)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:15:36 -0400
Subject: ADS Web site changeove (ADS Newsletter 32.2)
In-Reply-To: <55.7a01aaa.2683acc1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.111536.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If you are trying to go to the ADS Web site (as Allan has suggested, if you
want to look at the latest ADS Newsletter), you may not find it just at the
moment!  We are trying to change the ADS Web site over to our Linguistic
Atlas server here in Athens (away from the previous server, which cost ADS
money to rent space), and I'm afraid that right now you'll get our
Linguistic Atlas site and not the ADS site if you click on
http://www.americandialect.org/.  We'll get this fixed ASAP.

Bill
                        *****
Bill Kretzschmar                        Professor of English and Linguistics
Dept. of English                        Phone: 706-542-2246
University of Georgia                   Fax:  706-583-0027
Athens, GA  30602-6205          Atlas Web Site: us.english.uga.edu


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Jun 23 15:29:27 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:29:27 -0700
Subject: Letter to Dr. Laura
In-Reply-To: <3953687B.126E9CC8@voyager.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.082927.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Fri, Jun 23, 2000 9:39 AM -0400 Bob Fitzke <fitzke at VOYAGER.NET> wrote:

> Priceless! (For everything else, there's Mastercard)

I agree--but can anyone point me to the Dr. Laura utterance that occasioned
this comeback?  I've heard of Dr. Laura and that's about it.

Peter Mc.

>
> Bob
>
> FTA Editor wrote:
>>
>> Dear Dr. Laura:
>>
>> Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have
>> learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as
>> many
>> people as I can.



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Fri Jun 23 15:34:28 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:34:28 -0700
Subject: Letter to Dr. Laura
In-Reply-To: <105705.3170737767@dhcp-218-202-118.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.083428.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

www.stopdrlaura.com is a Website dedicated exclusively towards pressuring
Paramount into giving up her show. They have a lot of quotes from her there.
They say she has pulled all such quotes off of her Website.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On
>
>I agree--but can anyone point me to the Dr. Laura utterance that occasioned
>this comeback?  I've heard of Dr. Laura and that's about it.
>
>Peter Mc.


From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU  Fri Jun 23 15:45:50 2000
From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:45:50 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <b8.7769915.2684b73e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.114550.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    I always thought that although these referred to the same basic kind
of thing, that frosting was the thick kind, like you would put on a
carrot cake, and icing was more of a glaze, like you would put on an
angel food cake.  Does anyone else make this differentiation?

Excerpts from mail: 23-Jun-100 Re: need DARE pairs by AAllan at AOL.COM
> frosting : icing

    And also, I thought that monkey bars were the things that you swing
across, but that a jungle gym was ANY structure of bars that kids climb
on.  Is this differentiation common either?

Excerpts from mail: 22-Jun-100 Re: need DARE pairs by Kim & Rima McKinzey at SLIP
>Monkey bars/Jungle Gym?

    Johanna

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Combination of the Discoveries of Einstein and Pythagoras:

        E = m c^2 = m(a^2 + b^2)


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Fri Jun 23 16:42:42 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:42:42 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <ktIsMiu00UwH0UpgA0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.124242.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Johanna N Franklin wrote:

>     I always thought that although these referred to the same basic kind
> of thing, that frosting was the thick kind, like you would put on a
> carrot cake, and icing was more of a glaze, like you would put on an
> angel food cake.  Does anyone else make this differentiation?

Nope -- I grew up exclusively with frosting. Icing probably entered by
idiolect first through the idiom "icing on the cake" and then later
through contact with speakers from other parts of the country.


--- Steve K.


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Fri Jun 23 16:50:09 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:50:09 -0500
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <b8.7769915.2684b73e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.115009.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you very much.

>frosting : icing
>
>See also the list of Regional Counterparts in Craig Carver's _American
>Regional Dialects_ (Ann Arbor, U of Michigan Press 1987).
>
>- Allan Metcalf

--
-
Greg

greg at pulliam.org
http://www.pulliam.org


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 23 16:49:09 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:49:09 EDT
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.124909.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Frosting is very decidedly Northern and Western. Icing is pretty decidedly
Southern and Midlands. See DARE!
- Allan Metcalf


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Fri Jun 23 16:53:13 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:53:13 -0500
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <msg49736.thr-18bda912.d8d2f@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.115313.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you, David.

>Try thingemajig ~ thingumbob .....
>
>theirselves ~ theyselves
>
>stoop ~ galley ~ porch  ~ piazza ~ veranda
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>David K. Barnhart, Editor
>The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
>barnhart at highlands.com
>www.highlands.com/Lexik
>
>"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
>Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813

--
-
Greg

greg at pulliam.org
http://www.pulliam.org


From ookpik at MINDSPRING.COM  Fri Jun 23 17:02:11 2000
From: ookpik at MINDSPRING.COM (J. Katherine Rossner)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:02:11 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <f7.3449cc.2684ef05@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.130211.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:49 PM 6/23/00 -0400, Allan Metcalf wrote:
>Frosting is very decidedly Northern and Western. Icing is pretty decidedly
>Southern and Midlands. See DARE!

Hm.  My growing-up was decidedly Northeastern (NYC until I was five,
suburbs until ten, a year in New England, then back to the city until I
left at eighteen), and it was _always_ "icing".

Katherine


--
Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche is chaunge
Withinne a thousand yere, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem, and yit they spake hem so.
        - Chaucer, "Troilus and Criseyde"


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Jun 23 17:30:54 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 18:30:54 +0100
Subject: 'sexy' scots accent
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.183054.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From the UK newspaper _The Guardian_ -- a story on the appeal of the
Scottish accent (and the question of whether such a thing exists):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/today/article/0,6729,335640,00.html

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From katie at LING.LING.ROCHESTER.EDU  Fri Jun 23 17:36:43 2000
From: katie at LING.LING.ROCHESTER.EDU (Katie Schack)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:36:43 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <ktIsMiu00UwH0UpgA0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.133643.0400.KATIE@LING.LING.ROCHESTER.EDU>

On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Johanna N Franklin wrote:

>     I always thought that although these referred to the same basic kind
> of thing, that frosting was the thick kind, like you would put on a
> carrot cake, and icing was more of a glaze, like you would put on an
> angel food cake.  Does anyone else make this differentiation?
>

I make this same distinction mentally, at least, although I'm not sure
where I acquired it from.  I think growing up I called everything we made
either frosting or glaze, but then again we didn't ever put anything in
the glaze category on cakes or cookies, which are the things that in my
mind one could potentially put icing on.

As long as I'm here, how about the pair sore/lame (as in, how to describe
how you feel after exercising too much)?  That is, if we're venturing past
the O's.

Katie


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Fri Jun 23 18:30:32 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:30:32 +0100
Subject: 'sexy' scots accent
In-Reply-To: <E135XFZ-0000mT-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.193032.0100.AARON@LING.ED.AC.UK>

On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Lynne Murphy wrote:

}>From the UK newspaper _The Guardian_ -- a story on the appeal of the
}Scottish accent (and the question of whether such a thing exists):
}
}http://www.guardian.co.uk/today/article/0,6729,335640,00.html

Why do you think I'm doing my PhD here?!?!  :-)

Just because a national variety has a lot of regional variation and does
not have a centralised standard, does not mean that "There is no such
thing as the Scottish accent."  North America doesn't have a centralised
standard, yet folks here can easily point out somebody from there. Both
dialects (is it safe to use the word this time, Rudy?) with all of
their regional varieties have a respective common core.

Having said that, there are two standards in Scotland.  One _is_
centralised: RP.  The other has more regional variation, but there is a
common core of phonology.  There's also influence from Scots that varies
with regional variety and social variety.

Am I getting too upset at a non-linguist trying to describe language in
non-technical terms?

The accent attributed to Edinburgh is usually associated with one
particular (er, posh) neighbo(u)rhood of the city.  Glaswegians tend to
associate that variety (and all of the social baggage attached to it) to
all of Edinburgh.  The neighborhood is called Morningside.  That's also
the name of a very rough neighborhood where I grew up, and I just can't
shake some of the fear attached to the name.

--Aaron

________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                  Departments of English Language and
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron       Theoretical & Applied  Linguistics

"MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Jun 23 19:32:25 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:32:25 -0700
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.123225.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Steve K." wrote:
>
> dragon fly/darning neele, mosquito hawk (and numerous others)

A dragon fly and a mosquito hawk are 2 different critters in my vocabulary.
Darning needles are a particular type of dragonfly. Interestingly enough, my
husband calls mosquito hawks "daddy long-legs", and doesn't know about the
spider by the same name.  Clearly he has never been in a latrine in a scout camp
in the Texas woods...

The frosting/icing pair was discussed on this list before, I believe.

As for bureau/dresser, I would add chest-of-drawers.

Andrea
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Kid" by Aardman Animation


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Fri Jun 23 19:46:58 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:46:58 -0500
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.144658.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Several people have asked, so I'm writing to pass along my planned
project assignment for my summer students.

The class:  "The American English Language."  A sort of hybrid of
History of the English Language and American Dialects.  It runs 8
weeks--3 hours/day, 2 days/week.  We have spent June with Barber's
_The English Language: A Historical Introduction_.  We will spend
July with Wolfram and Schilling-Estes' _American English_.  It's a
junior-level class, but of course has sophomores and seniors in it,
too.  About half the class is American and half international.

The project:  From a list of DARE pairs, students choose a pair, then
use DARE and its very helpful website to write up a 3-4 page overview
of the terms and the people who use them.  Next, find the survey
question/s used to elicit these terms, and ask a specific number of
people (what do you ADSers think--5?  10?  15?) the same question.
Record demographic, ethnic and geographical (like where they were
born/raised/etc.) information for these respondents as well as their
answers to the question.  Write up a 3-4 page account of your
findings.

Thanks to Don Lance for helping me figure this out.  I'm also open to
any suggestions folks might have, especially if you have done
something like this yourself and know where the pitfalls are.

Here is the tentative list of "pairs" I am working with--I appreciate
all contributions.  Remember, all pair members must begin with the
letters A-O.  I'm aware of pairs such as couch/davenport, but since
there's another major term in that trio--sofa--that we can't access
yet, I'm not going to include it.  I'm considering removing the
hoagie group for this reason--sub and po'boy can't come into the
picture yet.  I have 11 students, so I think this list will suffice,
but feel free to comment on these or suggest others.

Again, thanks to all who contributed!

1. firefly/lightning bug
2. lunch/dinner
3. hoagie/hero/grinder
4. eaves/gutter
5. bureau/dresser
6. burlap bag/gunny sack/croker sack
7. green pepper/bell pepper/mango
8. daddy longlegs/granddaddy longlegs
9. dirt dauber/mud dauber/mud wasp
10. beetle/june bug
11. footstool/hassock/ottoman
12. crawfish/crawdad/crayfish
13. casserole/hot dish/covered dish
14. flat screwdriver/flat-head screwdriver
15. adjustable wrench/monkey wrench
16. credenza/bookcase
17. brush hook/Kaiser blade
18. creek/crick
19. egg cream/frappe/milkshake/malted, etc.
20. monkey bars/jungle gym
21. (grocery) cart/buggy
22. andiron/firedog
23. dragon fly/darning needle/mosquito hawk
24. frosting/icing


--
-
Greg

greg at pulliam.org
http://www.pulliam.org
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From stevek at SHORE.NET  Fri Jun 23 19:48:12 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:48:12 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <3953BB49.A2E2A4F@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.154812.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, A. Vine wrote:

> A dragon fly and a mosquito hawk are 2 different critters in my vocabulary.

Oops, I didn't mean to imply that all senses of all those words were
synonymous in all cases. "Mudpuppy" is a fun word that means different
things to different people and in some cases overlaps with other words for
the same species, and different words with other species, per DARE. This
happens a lot with critters and plants.

--- Steve K.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Jun 23 20:46:53 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:46:53 -0700
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.134653.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had forgotten about the crawdad triplet, and I must admit I can't imagine
anyone calling a bell/green pepper a "mango" - what on Earth would they call a
real mango?
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Kid" by Aardman Animation


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Fri Jun 23 21:49:10 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:49:10 -0500
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.164910.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David wrote:
> stoop ~ galley ~ porch  ~ piazza ~ veranda

I'm getting in late on the game and read down a bit farther in the
mail since I felt sure that most of my potential suggestions had
already been mentioned (and they have been -- pairs like lightning
bug and firefly).  One of many pairs that popped into my head
of words that didn't meet the o-or-earlier requirement (e.g.,
redbug/chigger) was porch/gallery.  I'm interested to see that
David lists galley but not gallery.  Is that a typo, or do some
people say "galley" for porch/gallery?

   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Fri Jun 23 21:58:18 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:58:18 -0500
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.165818.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Steve wrote:
> Nope -- I grew up exclusively with frosting. Icing probably entered by
> idiolect first through the idiom "icing on the cake" and then later
> through contact with speakers from other parts of the country.

And I grew up exclusively with icing.  I think I first became aware
of "frosting" from seeing it written on cans or boxes in grocery
stores.  Sort of like cans and frozen bags in grocery stores never
say "English peas."  You just can't trust packages and cans, can you.
They talk funny.
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Fri Jun 23 21:53:54 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:53:54 -0500
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.165354.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bonnie:
> closet - chiffarobe

And don't forget armoire.  I don't think of armoire and chifforobe
as being parallel with closet, though -- wardrobe, but not closet.
Does anybody call a free-standing piece of furniture of that kind a
closet?
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Fri Jun 23 22:04:05 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:04:05 -0500
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.170405.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> 22. andiron/firedog

I was surprised in a class last semester when I mentioned something
about andirons and firedogs and *nobody* in the class had ever heard
either term.
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Fri Jun 23 22:05:53 2000
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:05:53 -0700
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <200006232153.QAA13552@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.150553.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Same here. Armoire, chiffarobe and wardrobe are pieces of furniture, a
closet isn't.
And, for me, frosting is thick and not opaque, icing is thinner and
slighly opaque and a glaze is very thin and opaque or even transparent.
Even though frosting is common here, the phrase is still "the icing on the
cake."

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Natalie Maynor wrote:

> Bonnie:
> > closet - chiffarobe
>
> And don't forget armoire.  I don't think of armoire and chifforobe
> as being parallel with closet, though -- wardrobe, but not closet.
> Does anybody call a free-standing piece of furniture of that kind a
> closet?
>    --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)
>


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Jun 23 22:22:16 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:22:16 -0700
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.152216.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Natalie Maynor wrote:
>
> > 22. andiron/firedog
>
> I was surprised in a class last semester when I mentioned something
> about andirons and firedogs and *nobody* in the class had ever heard
> either term.
>    --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)

I was looking for andirons for my condo fireplace about 14 years ago in
Connecticut.  As the fireplace was shallow, I was very concerned with the length
of the andirons.  Someone advertised some used andirons in the company paper, so
I called her up and asked her how long they were.  She couldn't understand why
that made a difference so I told her how shallow my fireplace was.  Turned out
she had fireplace tools, and had no idea what an andiron was.


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Sat Jun 24 00:16:19 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:16:19 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <200006232158.QAA13588@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.201619.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Natalie Maynor wrote:

> And I grew up exclusively with icing.

My favorite DARE split is between lightning bug/firefly, where firefly is
predominant in the northern tier of states (basically WA ---> ME),
instead of one of the regional clumps that dialectal items often occur
in. It's neat when DARE backs up your idiolect--I am solidly in the
firefly camp.

--- Steve K.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Jun 24 03:01:33 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:01:33 -0600
Subject: shoot the moon
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.210133.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I have received a query about the  gambling expression "shoot the moon"
(go for broke, shoot the works).   Would anyone know its origin?

    Is it perhaps a blend of "shoot for the moon" and "shoot the works"?

----Gerald Cohen



gcohen at umr.edu


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Sat Jun 24 03:29:05 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 22:29:05 -0500
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.222905.0500.>

You might leave in some of the terms with >o words and ask them to add information they
get in their interviews on these >o words and have them speculate about what might be in
the next volume of DARE.  I assume you'll ask the students to get other (quasi-)synonyms
in their interviews.

DMLance

Greg Pulliam wrote:

> Several people have asked, so I'm writing to pass along my planned project assignment
> for my summer students. The class:  "The American English Language."  A sort of hybrid
> of History of the English Language and American Dialects.  It runs 8 weeks--3 hours/day,
> 2 days/week.  We have spent June with Barber's _The English Language: A Historical
> Introduction_.  We will spend July with Wolfram and Schilling-Estes' _American
> English_.  It's a junior-level class, but of course has sophomores and seniors in it,
> too.  About half the class is American and half international. The project:  From a list
> of DARE pairs, students choose a pair, then use DARE and its very helpful website to
> write up a 3-4 page overview of the terms and the people who use them.  Next, find the
> survey question/s used to elicit these terms, and ask a specific number of people (what
> do you ADSers think--5?  10?  15?) the same question.  Record demographic, ethnic and
> geographical (like where they were born/raised/etc.) information for these respondents
> as well as their answers to the question.  Write up a 3-4 page account of your
> findings. Thanks to Don Lance for helping me figure this out.  I'm also open to any
> suggestions folks might have, especially if you have done something like this yourself
> and know where the pitfalls are. Here is the tentative list of "pairs" I am working
> with--I appreciate all contributions.  Remember, all pair members must begin with the
> letters A-O.  I'm aware of pairs such as couch/davenport, but since there's another
> major term in that trio--sofa--that we can't access yet, I'm not going to include it.
> I'm considering removing the hoagie group for this reason--sub and po'boy can't come
> into the picture yet.  I have 11 students, so I think this list will suffice, but feel
> free to comment on these or suggest others. Again, thanks to all who contributed! 1.
> firefly/lightning bug2. lunch/dinner3. hoagie/hero/grinder4. eaves/gutter5.
> bureau/dresser6. burlap bag/gunny sack/croker sack7. green pepper/bell pepper/mango8.
> daddy longlegs/granddaddy longlegs9. dirt dauber/mud dauber/mud wasp10. beetle/june
> bug11. footstool/hassock/ottoman12. crawfish/crawdad/crayfish13. casserole/hot
> dish/covered dish14. flat screwdriver/flat-head screwdriver15. adjustable wrench/monkey
> wrench16. credenza/bookcase17. brush hook/Kaiser blade18. creek/crick19. egg
> cream/frappe/milkshake/malted, etc.20. monkey bars/jungle gym21. (grocery) cart/buggy22.
> andiron/firedog23. dragon fly/darning needle/mosquito hawk24. frosting/icing
>  --
> -
> Greg
>
> greg at pulliam.org
> http://www.pulliam.org
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From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Jun 24 05:19:19 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 22:19:19 -0700
Subject: Semantic distinctions between regional synonyms
In-Reply-To: <200006240359.UAA26424@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.221919.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Andrea,

        Since you grew up in the Houston area, you probably made a
distinction between mosquito hawks and snake doctors, too (the latter out
of bounds for Greg since it begins with S).  There is a general principle
that when people grow up along an isogloss boundary, hearing competing
usages (or in my case, growing up in the Valley, with a mixture of
immigrants), they will tend to either level them out, chosing one and
banishing the other, or will try to rationalize the difference by looking
for meaning differences to differentiate them and retain both. This is
neatly illustrated by Atwood's finding that along the mosquito hawk
(Coastal Southern)/snake doctor (South Midland) boundary in Texas,
speakers, having noted that there are big dragon flies and little dragon
flies, distinguished them by identifying snake doctors as larger than
mosquito hawks. In Georgia, along the same boundary, some speakers
reported that mosquito hawks were larger than snake doctors! This is one
of the best examples of this process I know. Other responses herein have
shown the same process for rationalizing frosting vs icing.
        I always have fun in my American English course asking people to
describe their use of "pail" vs "bucket". Responses vary all over the
place, especially size and material, which are sometimes reversed (little
pail vs big bucket, big pail vs little bucket; metal vs plastic [wood has
disappeared except in the quotation "the old oaken bucket", LAMSAS to the
contrary notwithstanding]). I also like to use this as an illustration of
the mantra "words don't have meaning, people do", and to show how we form
our own idiosyncratic theory of word meanings, and should never really
assume that our interlocutors have the same theory we do. It also accounts
neatly for the genesis of semantic change, as well as linguistic change in
general.
        Incidentally, the same principle applies to different
pronunciations, a nice example being the pronunciation of "greasy" with
/s/ or /z/ along the isogloss in northern Pennsylvania.

        Have fun, Greg, and thanks for the question.

        Rudy


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Sat Jun 24 06:21:46 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:21:46 -0700
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <msg49736.thr-18bda912.d8d2f@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.232146.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>stoop ~ galley ~ porch  ~ piazza ~ veranda

But those are all different - not different names for the same thing.

Rima


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Sat Jun 24 06:21:46 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:21:46 -0700
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <3953BB49.A2E2A4F@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.232146.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>As for bureau/dresser, I would add chest-of-drawers.

Now who was it who told me their grandfather called this a "chestnut drawers"?

Rima


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 24 11:10:09 2000
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 04:10:09 -0700
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.041009.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've also heard "chester drawers."


--- Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm at SLIP.NET> wrote:
> >As for bureau/dresser, I would add
> chest-of-drawers.
>
> Now who was it who told me their grandfather called
> this a "chestnut drawers"?
>
> Rima


=====
Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English and Linguistics
and University Editor
Department of English
Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
Office:(757) 727-5437; FAX:(757) 727-5421;Home:(757)851-5773
e-mail:  mlee303 at yahoo.com   or   margaret.leee at hamptonu.edu

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Jun 24 11:32:38 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 07:32:38 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.073238.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU,Net writes:
> I'm interested to see that
>David lists galley but not gallery.  Is that a typo, or do some
>people say "galley" for porch/gallery?

  TYPO, my regrets.

Regards,
David


From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Sat Jun 24 12:55:56 2000
From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Lynn Irons)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 08:55:56 EDT
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <39542AF5.A98D9018@missouri.edu>; from "Donald M. Lance" at Jun
 23, 100 10:29 pm
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.085556.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greg, et al.

Some of the terms beyond o may be found in Kurath/s Word Geography, if
that work is available to your students.


As for A. Vine's comment about "mango" for pepper, where we call the
pepper a "mango" (and a darn good sweet pepper it is), we don't generally
eat that funny tropical fruit called a "mango," cause it don't grow here.

--

Virtually, Terry
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 24 13:10:40 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 06:10:40 -0700
Subject: shoot the moon
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.061040.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I learned "Shoot the moon", meaning taking all the
tricks, in the game of Hearts.


--- Gerald Cohen <gcohen at UMR.EDU> wrote:
>    I have received a query about the  gambling
> expression "shoot the moon"
> (go for broke, shoot the works).   Would anyone know
> its origin?
>
>     Is it perhaps a blend of "shoot for the moon"
> and "shoot the works"?
>
> ----Gerald Cohen
>
>
>
> gcohen at umr.edu


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Jun 24 15:03:01 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 08:03:01 -0700
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.080301.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CHIFFOROBE is often reshaped.  in second-hand furniture
stores (some really junk stores, others aspriring to antique
shoppe status) in towns across the u.s., i've seen them
labeled SHEFFER ROBE, SCHAFER ROBE, and SHIFFER ROBE.  (there
might have been other spellings; i wasn't taking notes.)

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Sat Jun 24 15:56:03 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:56:03 -0500
Subject: outdated metaphors
In-Reply-To: <000201bfdb82$506fd140$282b62ce@vneufeldt.m-w.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.105603.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had in mind those levers mounted on the floor that had the really big
round knobs.  The puny knobs on steering-wheel-mounted shifts make for very
weak metaphor in comparison.

And, BTW, I was dead serious about a joint article.

Bob

At 09:12 AM 6/21/00 -0400, Victoria Neufeldt wrote:
>Hey, what's outdated about gearshift levers?
>
>Victoria
>vneufeldt at m-w.com
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
>> Of Robert S. Wachal
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 5:07 PM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: outdated metaphors
>>
>>
>> Anyone interested in joining me to develop a publishable list of out-dated
>> metaphors,  especially those caused by the obsolescence of things
>> mechanical, e.g., "she could suck the knob off a gearshift lever."?
>>
>> Bob
>>
>
>


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Sat Jun 24 15:57:05 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:57:05 -0500
Subject: khakis/chinos
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.105705.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When did 'khakis' become 'chinos' and why?

Bob Wachal


From sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM  Sat Jun 24 16:08:27 2000
From: sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM (Chuck Borsos)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:08:27 -0700
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.090827.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, I have to admit that growing up in NE Ohio that we called 'em mangos,
or green peppers.  I never saw a "real mango" until I was in my early
twenties, and I was in Washington DC at the home of a Thai national.  When
I told him that we called the peppers "mangos", he just thought that was
stupid.  I don't recall hearing "bell pepper" until I got to California,
though my memory is not real clear about that.

Chuck Borsos
Santa Cruz, CA

>I had forgotten about the crawdad triplet, and I must admit I can't imagine
>anyone calling a bell/green pepper a "mango" - what on Earth would they call a
>real mango?
>--
>Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
>"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
>--From "Angry Kid" by Aardman Animation


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Sat Jun 24 16:29:03 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:29:03 +0100
Subject: khakis/chinos
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.172903.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
> When did 'khakis' become 'chinos' and why?
>
> Bob Wachal

For me, they were chinos before they were khakis (this I think is due to
age, not to the primacy of 'chinos).  Chinos were the big thing to have
when I was pre-adolescent in the late 70s.  They were not necessarily
khaki in color.  I had all sorts of colors--including bright yellow and
bright red (how embarrassing).

Looking in the AHD, it seems that chino refers to the kind of fabric,
whereas khaki refers to the color, so maybe that's why 'chinos' became
popular as a word--since the color range was expanded.

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From al at LOUISVILLE.EDU  Sat Jun 24 18:15:26 2000
From: al at LOUISVILLE.EDU (Al Futrell)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 13:15:26 -0500
Subject: shoot the moon
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.131526.0500.>

My experience with "shoot the moon" and "shoot the works" is that
'shoot the moon' refers to a poker wager in which
the gambler bets to win both high and low in a single hand.
'Shoot the works' refers to betting all of one's stake on one bet or hand.

I am not sure I understand what is 'blending' here.

Gerald Cohen wrote:

>    I have received a query about the  gambling expression "shoot the moon"
> (go for broke, shoot the works).   Would anyone know its origin?
>
>     Is it perhaps a blend of "shoot for the moon" and "shoot the works"?
>
> ----Gerald Cohen
>
> gcohen at umr.edu

--

Al Futrell, Ph.D. <al at louisville.edu>
University of Louisville, USA


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Sat Jun 24 19:49:23 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:49:23 -0400
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.154923.0400.>

I just had some mango and I have been eating it since childhood and I don't think
it's funny! You should try eating fruits that don't grow here.

Terry Lynn Irons wrote:

> we don't generally eat that funny tropical fruit called a "mango," cause it don't
> grow here.
>
> --
>
> Virtually, Terry
> (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
> Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
> Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
> Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
> (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 24 23:33:29 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:33:29 EDT
Subject: Knisch (1919)
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.193329.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Knish" is in the OED, cited from 1930.  John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF
AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK mentions this cite, but adds that "_Knish_ is a Yiddish
word (first in print in 1916)."  That citation is not given; this is a good
cite that reveals a possible 1906 date of "knish" origin.
   From THE MEDIATOR (microfilmed from 1917-1919; on the same reel as THE
JEWISH BAKERS' VOICE), 8 August 1919, pg. 12, col. 1:

_"K" In Knisch as in Pigs' Knuckles_
   It is pronounced, or, better, they are pronounced--k-nisches, the accent
being smeared imparitally over the k and the nisches, as in the word
k-nuckles, when used in connection with pigs' knuckles.
   Ask anybody in Rivington Street about knisches, and you will be steered
either to Max Green's polite dining-hall, in the basement of No. 150, or
Morris London's United Knisches Bakery, across the way, at No. 153.  It all
depends whether the person you pop the question to is pro-Green or
pro-London.  In any case, he, she, or it--meaning the young idea of Rivington
Street--is sure to be pro-knisches.  The East Side has gone clean crazy about
these knisches.
   Hence the great knisch war.
   As a conscientious gatherer of war news, your correspondent has to report
that he has visited both fronts--and rears--and that, so far as he is
concerned, may the best knisch win.  But which is the best knisch?  Ah-ha,
that's the question.
   Max Green says he's the inventor of the knisch.  Morris London says Max
isn't. (...)
   _The Knisch Commandments_
   And Max--what does he say?  Well, Max says simply that he is the
originator of the knisch, and points with pride--though doing so means
quitting the cash-register trench, hard by the gefuellte-fish counter, and
walking right out on the sidewalk, where one is exposed to the enemy's
fire--to the two-story sign done in Yiddish by Rosenthal, the well-known
black-and-red artist of Norfolk Street, which informs the public that the
undersigned, Max Green, is prepared to prove that he has faithfully observed
the "Ten Knisch Commandments."
   Before hearing what these Ten Commandments are, you should know that
whereas Max Green has been established in Rivington Street these last
thirteen years, Morris London, field-marshal of the United Knisch Bakery
forces, entered the campaign only a few weeks ago.  (Col. 2--ed.)  The exact
date was one week after the knisch first appeared on Max's counter as a
novelty in the eating line, at five cents per knisch.
   And this, as far as can be learned, was the sequence of events: Morris
opened his United Knisch Bakery across the street and advertised knisches at
three cents per.  Max met this challenge with a similar reduction.  Morris
bought a phonograph and advertised music with knisches.  Max retained the
services of a German band and hung up a sign reading, "Music Free Every
Evening."  Morris reinforced his staff with a ladies' orchestra and built a
platform for it in the back of his shop.  He also introduced what is
popularly known as "singink." (...) (Col. 3 continuation--ed.)
   But by this time your appetite is surely whetted to know what is it, a
knisch.  A strictly neutral investigation of knisches a la Max and knisches a
la Morris reveals much.  While, as all Rivington Street is convinced, one
knisch differeth from another in glory, not to say lusciousness and
perfection of workmanship, there are, speaking by and large, three recognized
types or species of knisch.  To wit, the potato knisch, the cheese knisch,
and the kasche knisch, or buckwheat knisch.  The potato knisch is head and
shoulders above the others in point of popularity.  Max and Morris both agree
on that.  They sell twice as many potato knisches as they do cheese and
kasche knishes combined.  But from the outside one knisch looks surprisingly
like another.  They all bear a strong resemblance to the dumplings that the
new cook tried to concoct before you heeded her request for the "proper
utensils."  And if you don't consider that sufficient recommendation, you
might be interested to know that Max says he disposes of 1,000 knisches every
Saturday and Sunday night, and that Morris, on hearing this, stated for
publication that he doled out 2,000.  The average daily consumption is said
to be 537. (...)

   I'll check out the personal/business names in the phone books and in the
New York Times Personal Name Index.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 24 23:33:27 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:33:27 EDT
Subject: Bagel (1928, 1929)
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.193327.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     "Bagel" is in the OED, cited from 1932.  David Shulman tells me that he
had submitted a 1918 cite, but I haven't seen it.
    THE JEWISH BAKERS' VOICE (half Yiddish, half English) began in 1927.

13 January 1928, THE JEWISH BAKERS' VOICE, "My Tour to Minneapolis & St.
Paul," pg. 11, col. 2:
   To make conditions still worse, there is one baker whose name I cannot
mention, baking bagels only.  Just because most of the bakers stopped buying
bagel (sic) from him, he reduces the prices of biscuits, cookies, doughnuts,
bismarks, cakes, bagel, butter-rolls, Vienna rolls, and cup cakes to 12 cents
per dozen, and a large pan bread to 6 cents.

24 February 1928, THE JEWISH BAKERS' VOICE, "My First Bakery in America
(Memories of a Baker)" by Joseph Edelstein, pg. 11, col. 2:
   On my way home I was stopped by a man, whom I knew as a bagel baker.
   "Can you bake bagels," he asked. (...)  Now, I want to say a few words
about this bagel baker.  He was a bagel baker at night, but by day he was a
banker. (...)  Well, I worked with the bagel-baker two weeks and he owed me
$24.

17 August 1928, THE JEWISH BAKERS' VOICE, pg. 14, col. 2:
   _Isaac Moskowitz Dies_
   Isaac Moskowitz, father of the Moskowitz Bros., bagel bakers and prominent
members of the organization, died Monday, August 11, in his home, 1515
Charlotte Street, Bronx.

1 March 1929, THE JEWISH BAKERS' VOICE, pg. 17, col. 1:
   _What is found in a Jewish Bakery_
   The breakfast crowd in a certain Jewish bakery began to come the other day
as usual around eight o'clock.  The customers found displayed along one wall
alone an assortment of breakfast rolls.  By count there were twelve different
varieties of rolls.  Among these were Vienna rolls, onion kuchen, mohn
kuchen, horns, small twists, egg bagel (sic), plain bagel (sic), and egg
rolls of various shapes and twists.  Besides these, there was also a white
bread of delicious quality.  Also, there were more than a dozen kinds of
breakfast cakes, including plain round buns, square buns, jelly and cheese
cakes, large mohn cakes, crullers and doughnuts, humintash for the holiday,
apple cake, and several others.  All were the best products of the baking
craft.  To top off the feast for the Jewish crowd, there was a fresh batch of
Jewish pure rye, heavy black pumpernick.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 25 00:36:20 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:36:20 -0700
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.173620.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

re MANGO 'bell/sweet pepper': i'm sure we've had this discussion
before, but it might have been some years ago.  in central ohio and
central illinois (and by interpolation, central indiana, though i
can't swear to it), at least up to about twenty years ago, plain ol'
MANGO was a pepper (it took me a while to get used to ordering mango
pizzas), and the tropical fruit (which i adore, messy though it is
to consume) is a FRUIT MANGO.

just the usual (material) markedness of the (conceptually or
experientially) marked item, as larry horn explained in the earlier
discussion.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 25 01:19:33 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:19:33 EDT
Subject: Chimichangas (1968, 1969)
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.211933.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     From THE AFICIONADO'S SOUTHWESTERN COOKING (University of New Mexico
Press, 1968) by Ronald Johnson, pg. 62 (under BURROS):

    _CHIMICHANGAS_
   Fry a burro in deep fat after it is rolled.  It changes the flavor
entirely and is well worth trying.  If you wish a sauce serve either Cold
Green Chile Sauce (see p. 98) or Jalapeno Sauce (see p. 101).

    From SOUTHWESTERN COOKING: NEW & OLD (University of New Mexico Press,
1985) by Ronald Johnson (a revised version of the above book):

Pg. 84:  _Chimichangas_
   These are simply burritos deep fried, and they can be assembled with any
filling you'd put in a burrito.  Since one doesn't have to work so quickly to
maintain a warm dish, they are more suitable to make at home for a
combination platter than are burritos.  For this reason the salsa is usually
omitted from the filling and then later spooned over the chimichanga.
    After you have rolled up the flour tortilla fix it with toothpicks.  Heat
oil to about 375 degrees in a deep fat fryer, then fry one at a time for
about a minute and a half, turning to brown both sides.  Drain on paper
towels and serve Fresh Salsa (p. 55), Guacamole (p. 219), sour cream, or Red
Chile Sauce (p. 51).
Pg. 85:  _Bean Chimichangas_  (Recipe follows--ed.)  Another delight for
vegetarians--and the rest of us too.

    From SOUTHWEST COOKERY, OR, AT HOME ON THE RANGE (Doubleday & Company,
Inc., Garden City, NY, 1969) by Richard Wormser:

Pg. 87:  In the upper Santa Cruz Valley, between Tucson and Nogales, they pat
or roll flour tortillas until they are 12 to 18 inches in diameter; it is
easy to read large type through them.
    Then they make _burritos_ as above, first folding down the top and bottom
of the tortillas to add strength.
    These are then deep-fried, and called Chimichangos, a word with
absolutely no meaning in any Indian or Spanish dialect that anyone ever heard
of.  The translation might be "thingumajigs," but the flavor is delicious.
Pg. 162:  _CHIMICHANGOS DULCES DE TUBAC_
(Sweet Thingumabobs from Tubac)
4 cups sifted white flour, all purpose
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
1/2 teaspoon cinnamon
1/2 cup lard
Water
Flour for dusting, butter for greasing hands
Lard for deep frying
Mix the three dry ingredients thoroughly; cut in the lard with a knife; add
enough water to make the dough slightly elastic--the amount of water seems to
vary with the climate.
Cut the dough into lumps about the size of an egg, and chill for half an hour.
Powder a bread board and massage your hands thoroughly with (Pg. 163--ed.)
butter.  Put a lump of dough on the board and pat it till it is as big in
diameter as the largest skillet you own or can borrow.
Put the skillet over a moderate heat, and warm it till a drop of water dances
and steams away.
Lay each tortilla in the skillet for a minute on each side; remove and stack
tortillas and set them aside.
FILLING:
1/4 cup granulated sugar
1/2 teaspoon grated lemon rind
2 cups stewed fruit, such as apricots or dried apples
1/4 cup unsalted butter
Lard for deep frying
Powdered sugar for dusting
Stir the sugar and lemon rind into the stewed fruit; bring to a boil and
allow to cool.
Fold each tortilla 2 inches down from the top and up from the bottom; spread
the fruit mixture from fold to fold about 2 inches wide and 2 inches in from
the right-hand edge; spread the butter for about an inch just in from the
fruit mixture.
Roll the tortilla from right to left around the fruit.
Heat the lard to 370 degrees F. and drop the chimichangos in one by one;
remove the same way as they turn the color of golden toast.
Drain on brown paper. sprinkle with powdered sugar, and serve hot.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 25 02:29:34 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:29:34 EDT
Subject: Between-the-Sheets (Brandy, Cointreau, Bacardi)
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.222934.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    OED doesn't have Between-the-Sheets!
    Between-the-Sheets beats Sex-on-the-Beach anytime!!
    This is from MY 35 YEARS BEHIND BARS: MEMORIES AND ADVICE OF A BARTENDER,
INCLUDING A LIQUOR GUIDE (Exposition Press, NY, 1954) by Johnny Brooks (who
worked at the old Waldorf-Astoria, Rector's, Texas Guinan's, Jack Dempsey's,
the Stork Club, the House of Morgan, the Glass Hat of the Belmont Plaza
Hotel, the Gruenwald Hotel in New Orleans, et al.) :

Pg. 88 (INVENTING DRINKS):  In New Rochelle one year, I made up a concoction
which I called "between-the-sheets."  Later, I found that some house in
Alabama claimed to have served the same drink before I did.  I wrote to them,
and asked for some proof, but I never got an answer to my letter.  Well,
maybe they did have the same idea.  You hear of scientific discoveries being
made by men in diffferent parts of the world at the same time.  But I still
think I was the first to make between-the-sheets.

Pg. 129, col. 1:
BETWEEN THE SHEETS
1/3 brandy
1/3 Cointreau
1/3 Bacardi
Juice of 1/2 lemon
_Shake and strain into cocktail glass._

Pg. 110, col. 2:
THE BIG APPLE
1/2 applejack
1/4 creme de menthe (white)
1/4 absinthe
_Shake and strain into cocktail glass._

(The drink list is extensive, but DOES NOT have Bloody Mary, Margarita, Pina
Colada, Screwdriver, Moscow Mule, and others.)


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Sun Jun 25 07:18:07 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 02:18:07 -0500
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <200006250036.RAA20639@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.021807.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about garbanzos/chickpeas?
--
-
Greg

greg at pulliam.org
http://www.pulliam.org


From Ellen.Polsky at COLORADO.EDU  Sun Jun 25 07:49:14 2000
From: Ellen.Polsky at COLORADO.EDU (POLSKY ELLEN S)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 01:49:14 -0600
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <v01510101b57a8b81b0ad@[165.227.129.69]>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.014914.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about plate/platter/dish, as in "Can I make you a platter of food?"
(Philadelphia)

serving/helping

In my family, we say, "turn on the water" (heat water for tea)
(Philadelphia). This strikes my Maryland-born husband (who has spent most
of his life in Colorado) as bizarre.  He'd say "heat some water" or "put
the kettle on."

piecing (Western Kansas - obsolete?)/snacking



Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky at Colorado.EDU)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 25 15:04:49 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:04:49 -0400
Subject: shoot the moon
In-Reply-To: <3954FABE.CA79BDFF@louisville.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.110449.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:15 PM -0500 6/24/00, Al Futrell wrote:
>My experience with "shoot the moon" and "shoot the works" is that
>'shoot the moon' refers to a poker wager in which
>the gambler bets to win both high and low in a single hand.
>'Shoot the works' refers to betting all of one's stake on one bet or hand.
>
>I am not sure I understand what is 'blending' here.
>
In my poker circles, where a lot of high-low games are regularly played, no
one refers to attempting to win both halves of the pot (indicated by
placing two coins in one's hand during the "declaration" phase) as
'shooting the moon'.  It's officially 'going hi-lo' and more usually 'going
both ways' or 'swinging'. For me, 'shooting the moon' in cards only has the
association with attempting to take all the tricks at Hearts mentioned
earlier.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 25 15:25:32 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:25:32 -0400
Subject: "jukebox"
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.112532.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just came across the below item in the current (24 Jun 00) issue of Michael
Quinion's weekly "World Wide Words" e-column.  I find the story (based on
the OED version:  s.v. JUKE, 2) plausible enough, but the first cite (in
Time magazine) seems quite unlikely; the
first-cite-in-national-newsweeklies always seems to dissolve on closer
inspection. Anyone (Fred?  Barry?  Jerry?) have an earlier 'juke-box' cite
on you, or an amendment to the derivation?  It's a nice etymology for class
and I want to make sure it's not too far off-base.

larry

P.S.  The OED does offer one slightly earlier cite (1937, Florida Rev.) for
the obviously related 'jook organ'.


================================
Q. I've always been a word junkie and love finding sites like
yours. I've been looking for the origin of the word 'jukebox' for
some time. Do you have an answer? [Sue Katz]

A. Yes, but it requires some delving into creoles, West African
languages, and a bit of low-life.

Creoles are languages that arise spontaneously when people without
a tongue in common have to work and live together. The first stage
is a pidgin, a simplified amalgam of elements from the colliding
languages; a creole is a pidgin that has gone up in the world and
become a mother tongue. There are many examples in and around the
Americas, including several in the Caribbean, and (most relevantly
for your question) in the Sea Islands off the Carolinas, where
Gullah is spoken. This is a creole of English and several West
African languages that were brought in by slaves in the eighteenth
century.

In Gullah, there is a word 'jook' or 'joog', which means disorderly
or wicked. This comes from one of these West African languages,
either from Bambara 'dzugu', meaning wicked, or from Wolof 'dzug',
to live wickedly. (As you may guess, these languages are related.
Both are members of the Niger-Congo group; Wolof is in effect the
national language of Senegal, and is also spoken in Gambia; Bambara
is a dialect of Mandekan, the administrative language of the old
empire of Mali, now an official language of Mali and an important
trade language in the area.)

The Gullah word appeared in the Black English 'jook house' for a
disorderly house, often a combination of brothel, gaming parlour
and dance hall, sometimes just a shack off the road where you could
get a drink of moonshine, sometimes a tavern or roadhouse providing
music and the like. This was shortened back to 'jook' and is
recorded in this form from the 1930s, though - in the way of such
matters - it is almost certainly much older.

The jukebox was invented in the late 1930s to provide music in
those jooks that didn't have their own bands. The first recorded
appearance of the word was in - of all places - _Time_ magazine, in
1939: "Glenn Miller attributes his crescendo to the 'juke-box',
which retails recorded music at 5c a shot in bars, restaurants and
small roadside dance joints". It's gone up in price a bit since,
but next time you see one, think of the long linguistic journey
implied by its name.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 25 18:03:19 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:03:19 -0400
Subject: "jukebox"
In-Reply-To: <v04011700b57bd1bc7c47@[130.132.166.241]>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.140319.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 25 Jun 2000, Laurence Horn wrote:

> Just came across the below item in the current (24 Jun 00) issue of Michael
> Quinion's weekly "World Wide Words" e-column.  I find the story (based on
> the OED version:  s.v. JUKE, 2) plausible enough, but the first cite (in
> Time magazine) seems quite unlikely; the
> first-cite-in-national-newsweeklies always seems to dissolve on closer
> inspection. Anyone (Fred?  Barry?  Jerry?) have an earlier 'juke-box' cite

I don't know why a first citation in Time should seem so improbable to
Larry and Michael.  Time was renowned for its word-coinages in the 1920s
and 1930s, and probably introduced to mainstream usage many words coined
elsewhere.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 25 18:11:42 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:11:42 -0400
Subject: "jukebox"
In-Reply-To: <v04011700b57bd1bc7c47@[130.132.166.241]>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.141142.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I forgot to mention in my last message that there is a slightly earlier
citation for _jukebox_ in the Random House Historical Dictionary of
American Slang.  It's from ... Time magazine.  The third oldest known
citation is from ... Time magazine.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 25 19:24:58 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 15:24:58 -0400
Subject: "Margherita" Pizza
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.152458.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

JUKE

   I looked into this a while ago.  The citations in DARE and the RHHDAS are on the mark.  However, it'd be a nice excuse to visit Florida...

--------------------------------------------------------
"MARGHERITA" PIZZA

   Jesse wants to know if I have anything before 1983.  I copied this item years ago, but I couldn't find it again.  You'd just as soon find NUCLEAR SECRETS AT LOS ALAMOS than you'd find my work from a few years ago in my apartment.
   From Naples tourist board semi-official version, HISTORY OF THE PIZZA (Entre Provinciale Per Il Turismo--Napoli, 1956) by Roberto Minervini, pg. 21:

   _HOMAGE TO A QUEEN_
   The nineteenth century marks a second stage in the history of the pizza, as a new element was then introduced in its preparation; this was "mozzarelle," a soft buffalo cheese, which joined the tomato in a new variety, the "Margherita," an addition to the already many varieties.  It was thus called to celebrate a visit to Naples by King Umberto I's consort, Queen Margherita, who used to appreciate our superlative Neopolitan specialty.
   Raffaele Esposito was the inventor of "Margherita."  In 1889 an official of the Royal Establishment went expressly to his restaurant--the famous "pizzeria di Pietro" of which no more need be said, to enquire whether he could go immediately to the Capodimonte Royal Palace (a Royal residence in which, as can be seen, the traditional custom was punctually observed throughout the years), to give his Sovereigns a deomonstration of his exceptional ability.  It is superfluous to say that he felt exceedingly pleased at the honour and went out of his way to do his best on that fortunate occasion: having tasted the various pizzas prepared by the "Maestro," cooked as they were to perfection, exquisitely flavoured, their "cornicioni" (boarders) very thin, the Queen expressed her preference for the pizza garnished with mozzarella (Pg. 22--ed.) and tomato, the personal "creation" of Esposito which from that way was called, as we have said before, the "Margherita."
   The Queen's appreciation found its official expression in the following letter written on a Savoy-crested sheet:
THE HOUSE OF H.M.
INSPECTOR OF COMESTIBLES
Capodimonte, 11th June 1889.
Most Excellent Sig. RAFFAELE ESPOSITO--Naples.
   I confirm that the three varieties of pizza which you prepared for Her Majesty the Queen were found to be excellent.
   I remain,
   Yours faithfully,
Galli Camillo
Head of the Table Services of the Royal Establishment.

Pg. 35:  THE PIZZAS
PIZZA ALLA MARINARA
   Mince a piece of garlic very finely, distribute on _basic pettola_, sprinkle with marjoram and spread over with two table spoonfuls of tomato.
PIZZA "MARGHERITA"
   Instead of garlic and marjoram, garnish with a few thin slices of mozzarella, basil leaves, a tablespoonful of tomato and a small pinch of grated cheese.
PIZZA "QUATTRO STAGIONI"...
PIZZA "COSACCA"...
PIZZA "ROMANA...
(Pg. 36)
PIZZA "FRATTESE"...
PIZZA "PASQUALINO"...
PIZZA "BELLANAPOLI"...
PIZZA AL SEGRETO...
(Pg. 37)
PIZZA WITH MUSHROOMS
PIZZA WITH ANCHOVIES
PIZZA WITH "CECENIELLE"...
PIZZA WITH LARD AND CHEESE
PIZZA PORTA SAN GENNARO


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 25 23:27:01 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:27:01 EDT
Subject: New Girl Network; Paper of Record
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.192701.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NEW GIRL NETWORK (continued)

     "The New Girl Network: A Power System for The Future" by Jane Wilson
starts on page 47 of NEW YORK magazine, 4 April 1977.  SAVVY magazine was
being introduced and promoted.  From pg. 47, col. 1:

     What is needed now is a way to galvanize progress, and the "new girls"
network is proving itself an effective means of ending isolation and
passivity among ambitious women.  The "old boys" have used this tool for
getting things done since the first hunting parties set out from the caves,
and for them one of its chief benefits has always been access to information.

     From pg. 48, col. 1:

     _NGN: IT REALLY WORKS_
     Some women in business have always hung out with other women in
business, but only in the last five or six years have there been enough of
them at locations other than the water cooler to make the phenomenon worthy
of a name: the new girl network.  It's impossible to say how large that
network is, since its members don't all know one another more than all the
men on the old boy network do.  But there are a lot of them, and they know
who they are. (...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PAPER OF RECORD

"It was in the Paper of Record."
--Parks Department employee rationalizing plagiarism of my work, March 2000.

     The cover story in NEW YORK magazine, 18 July 1977:

_No News Is Bad News_
_At the New York Times_
Why Your Newspaper of Record Is Getting Bigger, Not Better.

     Again in NEW YORK, 22 August 1977, pg. 7, col. 1:  "A mocked-up front
page of the 'newspaper of record' with that famous slogan 'All the News
That's Fit to Print' appeared on page 22."
     I don't remember "newspaper of record" in that 1950s HARPER'S article
that used "Old Grey Lady."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 26 00:32:51 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:32:51 -0400
Subject: "jukebox"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10006251351560.19709-100000@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.203251.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:03 PM -0400 6/25/00, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>On Sun, 25 Jun 2000, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>> Just came across the below item in the current (24 Jun 00) issue of Michael
>> Quinion's weekly "World Wide Words" e-column.  I find the story (based on
>> the OED version:  s.v. JUKE, 2) plausible enough, but the first cite (in
>> Time magazine) seems quite unlikely; the
>> first-cite-in-national-newsweeklies always seems to dissolve on closer
>> inspection. Anyone (Fred?  Barry?  Jerry?) have an earlier 'juke-box' cite
>
>I don't know why a first citation in Time should seem so improbable to
>Larry and Michael.  Time was renowned for its word-coinages in the 1920s
>and 1930s, and probably introduced to mainstream usage many words coined
>elsewhere.
>
I don't want to attribute a finding of unlikelihood to Michael Quinion, who
expressed some surprise but no paticular skepticism about Time representing
the first cite for "juke box".  From the context of the '37 cite, it struck
me as more plausible that Time was picking up on a usage already extant for
some time (at least a couple of years) in the jook joints of the demimonde
before it would have crossed the paths of the Glenn Millers and national
newsweeklies.  I could be wrong in this intuition, of course.  And there's
a difference between locating a first cite and locating a first
introduction-to-mainstream-usage; I'm quite willing to believe that Time
was responsible for the latter.

larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 26 03:10:13 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:10:13 EDT
Subject: "jukebox"
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.231013.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Again, see the RHHDAS H-O, pp. 323-324 ("juke" and "jukebox" and "juke
organ") and DARE I-O, pp. 163-164 ("jook" ).
   I had found a "juke box" around the same time period in VARIETY.
   The 1939 Barry Buchanan unpublished ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE ENTERTAINMENT
WORLD might have "jukebox," but I haven't finished copying it.


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Mon Jun 26 06:30:35 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:30:35 -0700
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <p04310100b57b6268583e@[24.29.210.216]>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.233035.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>How about garbanzos/chickpeas?

And ceci

And carob/St. John's bread - ah, but that begins with an S.

Rima


From HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU  Mon Jun 26 12:06:35 2000
From: HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:06:35 -0500
Subject: GEnome or geNOME
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.070635.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This morning I heard Carl Kassel, reporting on the nearly completed mapping of the human genome, stress the ultima.  In other reports and interviews I've heard both pronunciations, from both reporters and researchers.  I checked the AHD, the only dictionary I have that's recent enough to list the word, and it gives only penultimate stress, although it does list a second spelling without the final -e and pronounced with a short <o>.  Where is the final-stressed pronunciation coming from?  I can imagine explanations, like an ersatz-French hypercorrection, but none of them sounds particularly likely.

Herb Stahlke
Ball State University


From derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM  Mon Jun 26 12:29:01 2000
From: derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM (Derrick Chapman)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:29:01 -0400
Subject: GEnome or geNOME
In-Reply-To: <s95700ff.085@gw.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.082901.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We relate new words to familiar words, sometimes pairing them incorrectly
(which leads to folk etymologies and common "mis"-pronunciations
overwhelming the scholarly "correct" pronunciations).

Gen- as the original root, yielding gen-ET-ics (short e in the first and
second syllables) probably leads to the gen-O-type and gen-OME
pronunciations; but the public awareness of GENE (with the long e)probably
leads to GE-no-type and GE-nome (long e's and stress in first syllables).

One day we may have to acquiesce to GEE-ne-tics.  GEE-whiz!


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Herb Stahlke
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 8:07 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: GEnome or geNOME


This morning I heard Carl Kassel, reporting on the nearly completed mapping
of the human genome, stress the ultima.  In other reports and interviews
I've heard both pronunciations, from both reporters and researchers.  I
checked the AHD, the only dictionary I have that's recent enough to list the
word, and it gives only penultimate stress, although it does list a second
spelling without the final -e and pronounced with a short <o>.  Where is the
final-stressed pronunciation coming from?  I can imagine explanations, like
an ersatz-French hypercorrection, but none of them sounds particularly
likely.

Herb Stahlke
Ball State University


From Dfcoye at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 26 13:30:58 2000
From: Dfcoye at AOL.COM (Dfcoye at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:30:58 EDT
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.093058.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Number 12 should include a fourth beside crawdad, crayfish, etc... we called
them crabs in upstate NY, which I believe is in DARE (I haven't got it handy).

When I do something similar with my students (who are 99% New Jerseyans) I
ask them to chose someone from their own generation, parents generation, and
grandparents-- all native New Jerseyans.    Changes are evident in some words
(the increasing use of 'try and' vs. 'try to',  of the /ai/ pronunciation of
either at the expense of /i:/ are particularly dramatic.   In some cases
there is no change over the generations.    I use the pairs  drawer-draw,
woodchuck-groundhog as well.
Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Mon Jun 26 13:37:57 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:37:57 +0100
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.143757.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dale Coye

> Number 12 should include a fourth beside crawdad, crayfish, etc... we called
> them crabs in upstate NY, which I believe is in DARE (I haven't got it handy).

Hm, we called 'em crayfish in upstate NY.  (In the 70s.)

(I think Dale and I are from about 40 miles apart, but we often lexically
differ!)

Lynne


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Jun 26 14:00:55 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:00:55 -0400
Subject: pizza
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.100055.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gastronomically speaking, Barry Popik quotes:

>>>>>
having tasted the various pizzas prepared by the "Maestro," cooked as they were
to perfection, exquisitely flavoured, their "cornicioni" (boarders) very thin,
the Queen expressed her preference for the pizza garnished with mozzarella (Pg.
22--ed.) and tomato
<<<<<

I hope the subsequent flow of excellent pizzas put some weight on the boarders!

[Sorry, Barry; I can't imagine how you type up so much stuff with so few typos!
But this one just fell into a pun and I couldn't resist. :-)\  ]

   Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist and Manager of Acoustic Data
         Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc.
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
                     (speaking for myself)


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Jun 26 14:03:46 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:03:46 -0400
Subject: Old Grey Lady
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.100346.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry says:

>>>>>
     Again in NEW YORK, 22 August 1977, pg. 7, col. 1:  "A mocked-up front
page of the 'newspaper of record' with that famous slogan 'All the News
That's Fit to Print' appeared on page 22."
     I don't remember "newspaper of record" in that 1950s HARPER'S article
that used "Old Grey Lady."
<<<<<

I have a sense of having seen "Old Grey Lady [opt: of xxx Street]" in reference
to _The Times_ of London, as well as her cisatlantic younger sister. Confirm or
correct, anyone?

-- Mark A. Mandel


From faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 26 14:36:17 2000
From: faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:36:17 -0400
Subject: Old Grey Lady
In-Reply-To: <8525690A.004D2C23.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.103617.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:
>Barry says:
>
>>>>>>
>     Again in NEW YORK, 22 August 1977, pg. 7, col. 1:  "A mocked-up front
>page of the 'newspaper of record' with that famous slogan 'All the News
>That's Fit to Print' appeared on page 22."
>     I don't remember "newspaper of record" in that 1950s HARPER'S article
>that used "Old Grey Lady."
><<<<<
>
>I have a sense of having seen "Old Grey Lady [opt: of xxx Street]"
>in reference
>to _The Times_ of London, as well as her cisatlantic younger sister.
>Confirm or
>correct, anyone?

"Grey Lady of Fleet Street" comes to mind, I know not whence.

 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                    new, improved email: faber at pop.haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories            old email, if you must: faber at haskins.yale.edu
New Haven, CT 06511 USA           tel: (203) 865-6163 x258; fax (203) 865-8963


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 26 14:50:51 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:50:51 -0400
Subject: Fwd: "Are regional accents a handicap?"
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.105051.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

f.w.i.w.
>
>Yes, I'm from New York: Don't make fun of my accent
>
>By Cynthia Gelper
>
>http://underwire.msn.com/underwire/social/hiwire/88hiwire.asp
>


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Jun 26 17:45:26 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (Andrea Vine)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:45:26 -0700
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.104526.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hmm, how about hazelnuts/filberts?

Greg Pulliam wrote:
>
> How about garbanzos/chickpeas?
> --


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 26 17:59:38 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:59:38 -0400
Subject: Manhattan cocktail
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.135938.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The online OED has the "Manhattan cocktail" from 1890.  They're revising "m," so I don't know if that's their final answer.
   From SCIENTIFIC BAR-KEEPING, A COLLECTION OF RECIPES USED BY LEADING BAR-KEEPERS IN MAKING STANDARD AND NEW FANCY MIXED DRINKS, RELIABLE DIRECTIONS FOR PRESERVING NATIVE AND FOREIGN WINES, ALES, BEER AND LIQUORS.  CAREFULLY COMPILED AND REVISED. (E. N. Cook, Publishers, Buffalo, N.Y. 1884), pg. 8:

   MANHATTAN COCKTAIL.--2 or 3 dashes of gum syrup; 2 or 3 dashes of bitters; 1 wine glass of Italian vermouth; one wine glass of whisky.  Fill the glass with ice; shake well; strain into a cocktail glass; squeeze the juice of lemon rind and serve.

--------------------------------------------------------
MISC.
   "Old Grey Lady" ultimately comes from "The Old Grey Lady of Threadneedle Street"--the Bank of England...Actually, "boarders" was from the original, I think.  I looked twice at that.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 26 18:11:35 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:11:35 -0400
Subject: The Smoothy (1977)
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.141135.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Smoothies" are popular, but I see "coolers" and "freezers" also served this summer.  Is the singular "smoothie" or "smoothy"?
   This--the only 1970s yogurt book that had it--is from YOGURT (Persea Books, NY, 1977) by Lorry & Gerry Hausman, pg. 104:

Gerry and I have had our most pleasurable yogurt experiences with "smoothies," yogurt drinks prepared in a blender.  The most important thing to remember is anything goes.  Experiment.  Here are a few basic recipes.
   _THE SMOOTHY_
1/2 c. buttermilk
1 1/2 c. milk
1 c. fruit juice, any kind
1 c. yogurt
(Pg. 105--ed.)
You can add fresh fruit to make this even more tantalizing.  Sliced cling peaches, for instance, or strawberries.  Or combinations of these and others.
   Sliced bananas
   One egg
   Pears
   Mango
   Papaya
   Chocolate
   Ovaltine
   Orange juice
   Tangerine juice
   Crangrape, Cranorange, Cranapple or Cranberry
   Frozen fruit (undefrosted)
   Pineapple
   If you like your smoothies more sweet than sour, add honey, jelly, molasses or juice from canned fruits for sweetener.  Also, we use buttermilk as a creamy, complementary base, but you can do without it.  This basic recipe of ours can be changed to suit your preferences, and it is _not_ meant to be a standard, only a reference.  The more juice you add the fruitier the smoothy and the more yogurt, the thicker and more tangy the drink will become.  Add extra milk for more of a milk shake effect.  Ice cubes added will make a delicious frosty-tasting smoothy.  One healthful hint: don't throw away the whey, so to speak.  This is the whitish liquid which sits on top of your yogurt, and it's loaded with vitamins. (you can drink whey all by itself with a little milk added.)


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Jun 26 18:05:06 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:05:06 -0400
Subject: Manhattan cocktail
In-Reply-To: <200006261759.NAA09978@listserv.cc.uga.edu> from
 "Bapopik@AOL.COM" at Jun 26, 2000 01:59:38 PM
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.140506.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>  The online OED has the "Manhattan cocktail" from 1890.  They're
> revising "m," so I don't know if that's their final answer.

> From SCIENTIFIC BAR-KEEPING, A COLLECTION OF RECIPES USED BY LEADING
BAR-KEEPERS IN MAKING STANDARD AND NEW FANCY MIXED DRINKS, RELIABLE
DIRECTIONS FOR PRESERVING NATIVE AND FOREIGN WINES, ALES, BEER AND
LIQUORS.  CAREFULLY COMPILED AND REVISED. (E. N. Cook, Publishers,
Buffalo, N.Y. 1884), pg. 8:

I had found another 1884 for _Manhattan cocktail_; both are
now in the files awaiting updating.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester at panix.com>


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Mon Jun 26 20:34:08 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:34:08 -0500
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <395796B6.7A898E7B@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.153408.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you.  And pecans /pI -'kanz/ and pecans /'pi-kaenz/.


>Hmm, how about hazelnuts/filberts?
>
>Greg Pulliam wrote:
>>
>>  How about garbanzos/chickpeas?
>>  --

--
-

Greg
greg at pulliam.org


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Mon Jun 26 20:38:01 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:38:01 -0500
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.153801.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is another name for those insanely rich, chewy,
chocolate-covered caramel and nut clusters, isn't there?  I know of
"turtles," and I think "Goo-goo clusters" refer to the same thing,
but I'm thinking there's another word for them that I used down in
Mississippi when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s.
--
-

Greg
greg at pulliam.org


From Sallie.Lemons at MSDW.COM  Mon Jun 26 20:51:50 2000
From: Sallie.Lemons at MSDW.COM (Sallie Lemons)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:51:50 -0400
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.165150.0400.>

My dad (Missouri) always referred to this candies as "turtles."

Greg Pulliam wrote:

> There is another name for those insanely rich, chewy,
> chocolate-covered caramel and nut clusters, isn't there?  I know of
> "turtles," and I think "Goo-goo clusters" refer to the same thing,
> but I'm thinking there's another word for them that I used down in
> Mississippi when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s.
> --
> -
>
> Greg
> greg at pulliam.org
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From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Mon Jun 26 21:04:07 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:04:07 -0500
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.160407.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greg wrote:
> There is another name for those insanely rich, chewy,
> chocolate-covered caramel and nut clusters, isn't there?

Millionnaires?  I've always thought of Turtles and Millionnaires
as pretty close to the same, if not identical.
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From andrea.vine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Jun 26 21:11:26 2000
From: andrea.vine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:11:26 -0700
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.141126.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greg Pulliam wrote:
>
> There is another name for those insanely rich, chewy,
> chocolate-covered caramel and nut clusters, isn't there?  I know of
> "turtles," and I think "Goo-goo clusters" refer to the same thing,
> but I'm thinking there's another word for them that I used down in
> Mississippi when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s.
> --

For me, turtles are pecans stuck in a rich nougat with caramel, all coated with
chocolate.  Goo-goo clusters are peanuts stuck in some sort of marshmallowy
nougat with caramel (they are a particular brand).  So I wouldn't interchange
them.

--
Andrea Vine
Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect
avine at eng.sun.com
I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{  Of course, I _am_ an architect.


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Mon Jun 26 21:21:22 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:21:22 -0500
Subject: turtle candy
In-Reply-To: <200006262104.QAA12317@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.162122.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember: pralines!  Aren't these the same as turtles, Natalie?
--
-

Greg
greg at pulliam.org


From jlyons at NETMARKETGROUP.COM  Mon Jun 26 21:30:13 2000
From: jlyons at NETMARKETGROUP.COM (Lyons, Jennifer M)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:30:13 -0400
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.173013.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I always thought these were two different things - pralines don't involve
chocolate, for me.

Jen
who wants a turtle now

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Pulliam [mailto:pulliam at IIT.EDU]
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 5:21 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: turtle candy


I remember: pralines!  Aren't these the same as turtles, Natalie?
--
-

Greg
greg at pulliam.org


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Mon Jun 26 21:35:35 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:35:35 -0500
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.163535.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greg wrote:
> I remember: pralines!  Aren't these the same as turtles, Natalie?

Definitely not!  Turtles are chocolate candy with nuts and caramel.
Pralines are wonderful cookie-shaped things made of mainly sugar
and pecans.  I'm not good at describing food.  Let me go see if I
have a recipe.
...
Ok, here's one from p. 83 of _White Trash Cooking_:

***********************
Mama Two's Pralines

2 cups sugar (light brown, if possible)
2 cups granulated sugar
1 small can evaporated milk
1 cup water
2 tablespoons white syrup
1/2 teaspoon soda
2 teaspoons vanilla
2 tablespoons butter
1 cup pecans (whote)

Blend together milk, water, soda, and syrup.  Blend well or milk
will curdle.  Stir in mixed brown and white sugar.  Cook to soft
ball stage.  Remove from fire and beat until light brown.  Put in
vanilla, then butter, and, last, pecans.  Drop on wax paper and
let cool.  Makes about 24 good-sized patties.
**********************

   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Jun 26 21:26:31 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:26:31 -0700
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.142631.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greg Pulliam wrote:
>
> I remember: pralines!  Aren't these the same as turtles, Natalie?
> --

Er, and pralines are pecans caught in a hardened sugar mixture.  So I could eat
a praline, a turtle, and a goo-goo cluster and have 3 different taste
experiences (not to mention get sick and promote tooth decay.)


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Mon Jun 26 21:38:25 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:38:25 -0400
Subject: turtle candy
In-Reply-To: <3957C6FE.C58F6E5B@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.173825.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, A. Vine wrote:

>For me, turtles are pecans stuck in a rich nougat with caramel, all coated with
>chocolate.  Goo-goo clusters are peanuts stuck in some sort of marshmallowy
>nougat with caramel (they are a particular brand).  So I wouldn't interchange
>them.

Goo-goo clusters have migrated into the postmodern world. Now you can
get them with either peanuts or pecans.

But modern Goo-goo clusters come with peanuts.

Bethany


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Mon Jun 26 21:40:14 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:40:14 -0400
Subject: turtle candy
In-Reply-To: <p04320402b57d7994a179@[216.47.144.24]>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.174014.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Greg Pulliam wrote:

>I remember: pralines!  Aren't these the same as turtles, Natalie?

No. No no no no no!

Pralines are harder candies made with pecans and sugar and water and
maybe some vanilla extract. No caramel.

Bethany


From davemarc at PANIX.COM  Mon Jun 26 21:50:07 2000
From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:50:07 -0400
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.175007.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Katydids, anyone (else)?

d.


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Mon Jun 26 22:03:26 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:03:26 -0500
Subject: turtle candy
In-Reply-To: <200006262135.QAA12804@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.170326.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, I'm stymied then.  I was sure there was another name we had for
"Turtles" in Mississippi.  And "Millionaires" didn't ring a bell with
me.

I give up for now, though.  Thanks, y'all.

Greg


>Greg wrote:
>>  I remember: pralines!  Aren't these the same as turtles, Natalie?
>
>Definitely not!  Turtles are chocolate candy with nuts and caramel.
>Pralines are wonderful cookie-shaped things made of mainly sugar
>and pecans.  I'm not good at describing food.  Let me go see if I
>have a recipe.
>...
>Ok, here's one from p. 83 of _White Trash Cooking_:
>
>***********************
>Mama Two's Pralines
>
>2 cups sugar (light brown, if possible)
>2 cups granulated sugar
>1 small can evaporated milk
>1 cup water
>2 tablespoons white syrup
>1/2 teaspoon soda
>2 teaspoons vanilla
>2 tablespoons butter
>1 cup pecans (whote)
>
>Blend together milk, water, soda, and syrup.  Blend well or milk
>will curdle.  Stir in mixed brown and white sugar.  Cook to soft
>ball stage.  Remove from fire and beat until light brown.  Put in
>vanilla, then butter, and, last, pecans.  Drop on wax paper and
>let cool.  Makes about 24 good-sized patties.
>**********************
>
>    --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Jun 26 22:22:29 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:22:29 -0500
Subject: GEnome or geNOME
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.172229.0500.>

I listened for pronunciations during an afternoon CNN piece.  Only Myron Kandel (however he spells his name) said geNOM.  All the others said what seems natural to me -- GEnom.  In addition to AHD, Webster's 10th, the Oxford American Dictionary and Language Guide, and the Cambridge International Dictionary of English all have GEnom.  Kandel seems at times to be rather fussy about his pronunciations, and people like that occasionally apply Romance stress rules rather than Germanic stress rules -- I assume on the assumption that they are being more sophisticated.  But they use initial stress on
HARra(s)sment.

Herb Stahlke wrote:

> This morning I heard Carl Kassel, reporting on the nearly completed mapping of the human genome, stress the ultima.  In other reports and interviews I've heard both pronunciations, from both reporters and researchers.  I checked the AHD, the only dictionary I have that's recent enough to list the word, and it gives only penultimate stress, although it does list a second spelling without the final -e and pronounced with a short <o>.  Where is the final-stressed pronunciation coming from?  I can imagine explanations, like an ersatz-French hypercorrection, but none of them sounds particularly likely.
>
> Herb Stahlke
> Ball State University


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 27 00:34:36 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:34:36 -0400
Subject: Yale Cocktail (1895)
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.203436.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

YALE COCKTAIL (continued)

   This is a terrible omission by the OED!
   From MODERN AMERICAN DRINKS, HOW TO MIX AND SERVE ALL KINDS OF CUPS AND DRINKS (Merriam Company, NY, 1895) by George J. Kappeler, pg. 44:

   _Yale Cocktail._
   Fill a mixing-glass half-full fine ice, three dashes orange bitters, one dash Peyschaud bitters, a piece lemon-peel, one jigger Tom gin.  Mix, strain into cocktail-glass; add a squirt of siphon seltzer.

--------------------------------------------------------
HIGH BALL (continued)

   Another citation is MIXOLOGY; THE ART OF PREPARING ALL KINDS OF DRINKS (Press of the Sunday Star, Wilmington, Del., 1898), pg. 10:

   _High Ball._
   Medium sized glass.  A little lemon juice, a little cracked ice, a good drink of whiskey; fill up with seltzer; stir slightly; serve.
   Brandy, Holland gin, Tom gin, or Scotch whiskey are used also in making High Balls.

   Hm.  Isn't a "High Ball" supposed to be in a "high" or "tall" glass?
   I guess Jesse has the "Martinez" from Jerry Thomas and the 1888 "Martini" in H. Johnson's book, right?


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 27 00:39:40 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:39:40 -0400
Subject: Yale Cocktail (1895)
In-Reply-To: <200006270034.UAA06108@listserv.cc.uga.edu> from
 "Bapopik@AOL.COM" at Jun 26, 2000 08:34:36 PM
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.203940.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>    I guess Jesse has the "Martinez" from Jerry Thomas and the 1888
> "Martini" in H. Johnson's book, right?

Jerry Thomas doesn't have "Martinez" until the 1887 edition, but
O.H. Byron had "Martinez" in 1884.

Harry Johnson does have the first "Martini," in 1888.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 27 01:01:31 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:01:31 -0400
Subject: La Cocinera Poblana
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.210131.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   LA COCINERA POBLANA Y EL LIBRO DE LAS FAMILIAS ("Novisimo manual practico de cocina espanola francesa, inglesa y mexicana higiene y economia domestica")was published in Mexico City, with TOMO I in 1887 and TOMO II in 1888.  Perhaps the OED can count it as a citation?  It's the 19th century bible of Mexican cooking.  I just examined the copy in the Library of Congress.
   "Quesadillas" is on pg. 59 of Tomo II.  Jesse was interested in "masa," and that's on page 84.
   No "fajita" that I can easily spot.  Some "enchiladas," "tamales," and "salsas."


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Tue Jun 27 02:59:29 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:59:29 -0400
Subject: The Smoothy (1977)
In-Reply-To: <200006261811.OAA13670@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.225929.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    "Smoothies"

By the way, I believe that Smoothie is a trademark, if I recall correctly
from researching this.


--- Steve K.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 27 03:31:41 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:31:41 -0400
Subject: turtle candy
In-Reply-To: <200006262104.QAA12317@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.233141.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:04 PM -0500 6/26/00, Natalie Maynor wrote:
>Greg wrote:
>> There is another name for those insanely rich, chewy,
>> chocolate-covered caramel and nut clusters, isn't there?
>
>Millionnaires?  I've always thought of Turtles and Millionnaires
>as pretty close to the same, if not identical.

Who wants to be a turtle?


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 27 03:34:38 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:34:38 -0400
Subject: Yale Cocktail (1895)
In-Reply-To: <200006270034.UAA06108@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.233438.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:34 PM -0400 6/26/00, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>YALE COCKTAIL (continued)
>
>   This is a terrible omission by the OED!
>   From MODERN AMERICAN DRINKS, HOW TO MIX AND SERVE ALL KINDS OF CUPS AND
>DRINKS (Merriam Company, NY, 1895) by George J. Kappeler, pg. 44:
>
>   _Yale Cocktail._
>   Fill a mixing-glass half-full fine ice, three dashes orange bitters,
>one dash Peyschaud bitters, a piece lemon-peel, one jigger Tom gin.  Mix,
>strain into cocktail-glass; add a squirt of siphon seltzer.
>
And now, barely a century later, you can't even find half of the essential
ingredients on campus here.  Very sad.


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Tue Jun 27 04:35:51 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:35:51 -0400
Subject: turtle candy
In-Reply-To: <200006262135.QAA12804@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.003551.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hey, Natalie,

Could you use dark brown sugar here?  I might just try this recipe.

bob

> From: Natalie Maynor <maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:35:35 -0500
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: turtle candy
>
> Mama Two's Pralines
>
> 2 cups sugar (light brown, if possible)
> 2 cups granulated sugar
> 1 small can evaporated milk
> 1 cup water
> 2 tablespoons white syrup
> 1/2 teaspoon soda
> 2 teaspoons vanilla
> 2 tablespoons butter
> 1 cup pecans (whote)
>
> Blend together milk, water, soda, and syrup.  Blend well or milk
> will curdle.  Stir in mixed brown and white sugar.  Cook to soft
> ball stage.  Remove from fire and beat until light brown.  Put in
> vanilla, then butter, and, last, pecans.  Drop on wax paper and
> let cool.  Makes about 24 good-sized patties.


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Tue Jun 27 05:25:46 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:25:46 -0500
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.002546.0500.>

Clearly, Greg Pulliam was way, way off in suggesting that "pralines" is
another name for "Turtles".   His original question, however, correctly
implies that there is another product on the market that is highly
similar to Turtles.  The name is "Pixies".

I had the impression that both Turtles and Pixies were exclusive trade
marks, and that the makers of Pixies came up with that name because they
were blocked from calling their product Turtles.  (That's the reason for
all the upper case initials I'm throwing in here.)  A down and dirty
Google search, however, reveals lots and lots of recipes for making
turtles (l.c.) in your own kitchen. The ingredients look like about what
I'd expect to find in Turtles.

"Pixies", on Google, got lots of information about a rock group, but I
didn't notice anything about the trademarked candy.

I know that Nestlé makes a product called "Turtles" because I have an
example in front of me.  (Retro me, Satanas! Greg, it was NOT kind of
you to put this temptation in front of me!) Unfotunately, the Nestlé Web
site doesn't give any further information.  Neither does the wrapper I
am trying so hard not to open.

All the wrapper says is "Nestlé", "Turtles", and "This unit not labeled
for retail sale".

I think (but I'm not sure) that Pixies are the exclusive product of
Fannie Mae candies.  (If they're not, then the Fannie Mae clone company
whose name I forget has them.)

-- mike salovesh    <salovesh at niu.edu>   PEACE !!!


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Tue Jun 27 05:56:51 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:56:51 -0700
Subject: Turtles or ?
In-Reply-To: <200006270401.VAA29258@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.225651.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Millionnaires as I recall is a brand name, but I'm like Greg, I feel sure
there was a different term, perhaps a local Texas brand name, used around
Austin in the 1950s-1960s until "turtles" edged it out -- I recall
disliking the new label, preferring the old. But I can't think of it now.
        The locally interesting thing about pralines in Texas is that they
are pronounced /prEYliynz/ in Central Texas, but /pr)liynz/ in East
Texas. This is one of my favorite stories: I was in New Orleans once, and
decided to pursue the pronciation to its source, so I located a store in
the French Quarter which specialized in pralines, in all colors and
flavors. I found a young woman behind the counter, who from appearances
looked as though she might be a local Cajun (p.c. Acadian), and asked her
what she called them. Her response was a delightful /prAriynz/ (/a/ as in
"father"). In South Texas, where they were regularly given as a free
dessert (now $1 extra) with coffee in Mexican food restaurants, there was
no regular name for them at the time, except perhaps "pecan candy".

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 27 08:58:48 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 04:58:48 EDT
Subject: Bio-prenuer; Green Wall; Smoothie; Pina Colada; Margarita
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.045848.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BIO-PRENUER

     "Bio-prenuer was project's driving force" is the headline in the NEW
YORK POST, 27 June 2000, pg. 8, col. 1.  The story is about Craig Venter and
that "genome" thing.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
GREEN WALL

     "Dot-coms are starting to hit the green wall" is the headline in the NEW
YORK POST, 27 June 2000, pg. 42, col. 1.
     It could be a green monster.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SMOOTHIE (continued)

     "I Scream, You Scream, We All Scream For...Uh...Frozen Yogurt" was in
LOS ANGELES magazine, June 1977.
     From "Where You Can Buy It," pg. 149, col. 2:

_The Cookie Farm and Dairy Co._, 1627 Fallbrook...  Alta-Dena frozen yogurt
is presented in cones, dishes, shakes, banana splits and smoothies.
(...)
_Hanging Gardens_, 160 S. Lake Ave., Pasadena, 792-8276.  Aside from dishes,
cones and banana splits, Frogurt is used in a high-protein drink and a
frozen-yogurt "smoothie."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PINA COLADA (continued)

     I could request three years at a time.  I looked through 1957-1958-1959,
1960-1961-1962, 1963-1964-1965, and 1966-1967-1968 of QUE PASA IN PUERTO RICO.
     I did NOT find "pina colada"!
     Perhaps I'll go back and check the 1970s.
     It's interesting to note that Trader Vic opened up in the Caribe Hilton
in the 1960s.
However, the Trader's own books and articles don't mention the "pina colada"
drink before the late 1960s-early 1970s.
     From QUE PASA IN PUERTO RICO, October 1957, pg. 25:

     _MIXOLOGIST JOE_
     Joe Scialom is a master bartender and world renowned mixologist.  The
former bar manager of Cairo's Shepheard's (sic) Hotel, Joe has been presiding
over the Caribar in San Juan's Caribe Hilton since early this year.
     Joe is more than just a manager--he is a creator with an almost
spiritual devotion to the spirits he dispenses.  Since he's been at the
Hilton, he has developed a number of new drinks, most of them using the
light, full flavored Puerto Rican rum as a base.
     The names Joe picks for his drinks are just as inviting as the mixtures
themselves--who can resist when the list includes such fanciful titles as the
"Tropical Itch" (served in a stylized hurricane lamp), the "Coucou Comber,"
(in a cucumber shell), or "Sol y Sombra" (sun and shade).
     Joe has found great inspiration for his fascinating drinks in Puerto
Rico.  He likes the climate, the people and the scenery.  And Puerto Rico
likes Joe.  Let's hope he stays around for a long time to come.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MARGARITA (continued)

     I went through a few years of the TEXAS MONTHLY (I must have gone
through a hundred books today), but I didn't find "fajita" or "chimichanga."
     "The Man Who Invented the Margarita" is in TEXAS MONTHLY, October 1974,
pp. 76+.  The story about Pancho Morales had been summarized by other
sources, but I finally copied it.  Anyone want an excerpt?


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Tue Jun 27 09:35:36 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:35:36 -0400
Subject: "jukebox"
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.053536.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Sunday, June 25, 2000 11:22 AM
Subject: "jukebox"


>Just came across the below item in the current (24 Jun 00) issue of Michael
>Quinion's weekly "World Wide Words" e-column.  I find the story (based on
>
>================================
>
>The jukebox was invented in the late 1930s to provide music in
>those jooks that didn't have their own bands. The first recorded
>appearance of the word was in - of all places - _Time_ magazine, in
>1939: "Glenn Miller attributes his crescendo to the 'juke-box',
>which retails recorded music at 5c a shot in bars, restaurants and
>small roadside dance joints". It's gone up in price a bit since,
>but next time you see one, think of the long linguistic journey
>implied by its name.

I like the latest incarnation of jukebox as an all-in-one software program
for digitizing, playing, and managing music on a computer, i.e. MusicMatch
Jukebox, and RealJukebox.

In a similar vein, in the tradition of the venerable ISP (Internet Service
Provider), and the surprisingly sticky ASP (Application Service Provider),
last week's MP3 conference brought us MSP, Music Service Provider.

Michael Robertson, CEO of MP3.com, has used MSP in the past, and as far as I
know, coined the term, but at the conference last week he unveiled a set of
specs for something called MSP 1.0, an umbrella platform for anybody in the
digital/online music business (aside to Gareth: I'm trying to get a copy for
review 8-).

Time will tell whether this sticks or not...

bkd


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Tue Jun 27 09:46:57 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:46:57 -0400
Subject: GEnome or geNOME
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.054657.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Derrick Chapman <derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Monday, June 26, 2000 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: GEnome or geNOME


>One day we may have to acquiesce to GEE-ne-tics.  GEE-whiz!


Hmmmm...

GEEN-a-tics (rhymes with lunatics): people who recreationally rewrite their
DNA for fashion or sport....

I like it...but I don't think we'll be seeing that usage for a while. More
likely it'll come from cautionary advocates to refer researchers they wish
to label as careless or reckless.

bkd


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Tue Jun 27 10:02:23 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 06:02:23 -0400
Subject: from turtles to pixies....
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.060223.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 1:25 AM
Subject: Re: turtle candy


>Clearly, Greg Pulliam was way, way off in suggesting that "pralines" is
>another name for "Turtles".   His original question, however, correctly
>implies that there is another product on the market that is highly
>similar to Turtles.  The name is "Pixies".
>
>I had the impression that both Turtles and Pixies were exclusive trade
>marks, and that the makers of Pixies came up with that name because they
>were blocked from calling their product Turtles.  (That's the reason for
>all the upper case initials I'm throwing in here.)  A down and dirty
>Google search, however, reveals lots and lots of recipes for making
>turtles (l.c.) in your own kitchen. The ingredients look like about what
>I'd expect to find in Turtles.
>
>"Pixies", on Google, got lots of information about a rock group, but I
>didn't notice anything about the trademarked candy.
>
>I think (but I'm not sure) that Pixies are the exclusive product of
>Fannie Mae candies.  (If they're not, then the Fannie Mae clone company
>whose name I forget has them.)


The only pixie candy I've ever come across is (are?) Pixie Stix. Though a
case could be made that the three foot editions really don't have anything
to do with pixies anymore...8-)

I've never seen pixies associated with chocolate...

And now to further promote tooth decay, the Wonka company, in their present
resurgence, are reintroducing Oompas. Only now they're fruit candies, ala
Skittles. When I first encountered them in the late 70's/early 80's, they
were chocolate and peanut butter in a round candy shell, just like today's
peanut butter and chocolate M&M's.

bkd
31yo, NE seaboard...


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Tue Jun 27 10:36:30 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:36:30 -0500
Subject: from turtles to pixies....
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.053630.0500.>

Bruce Dykes wrote:

>
> The only pixie candy I've ever come across is (are?) Pixie Stix. Though a
> case could be made that the three foot editions really don't have anything
> to do with pixies anymore...8-)
>
> I've never seen pixies associated with chocolate...


Ooops!  I attributed Pixies to "Fannie Mae" candies -- an obvious
intrusion from the financial markets. (Not that I would know much about
financial markets.  To me, the classic example of an oxymoron is an
"economic anthropologist", becaue if we knew anything about economics we
surely wouldn't be anthropologists.)

The candy people spell their company label "Fannie May".  Here's a quote
from their online ordering service:

>>>

  Send a Fannie May® favorite to all your loved ones. Pixies® have
remained our best selling candy for years -- winning every popularity
contest with the perfect taste combination of crunchy pecans and smooth,
creamy caramel -- drenched in delicious milk chocolate.

>>>

OK, Bruce, now you've seen Pixies® associated with chocolate.  Maybe
it's the pixies, not the Pixies®, who never touch the stuff.

--mike salovesh       <salovesh at niu.edu>          PEACE !!!


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Tue Jun 27 11:04:26 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 07:04:26 -0400
Subject: Found in a DVD review...
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.070426.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

"For more up-close and personal information, order up director Tim Burton's
fine audio commentrak..."
(found at http://www.eonmagazine.com/)

Commentrak refers to the audio commentary track included as a bonus on most
DVDs...

bkd


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 27 11:44:57 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 07:44:57 EDT
Subject: Turtles; Horse's Neck
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.074457.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The book SCIENTIFIC BAR-TENDING (1884) that I cited for "Manhattan" was
written by Joseph W. Gibson, but his name did not appear on the cover.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TURTLES

"I can't see me loving nobody but you."
--TURTLES, "Happy Together."

   From the TRIED AND TRUE COOK BOOK (First Methodist Church, Gonzales,
Texas, 1961), pg. 114:

     _TURTLES_
4 1/2 Cups sugar
1 Stick butter (less 1 in.)
1 Large can evaporated milk
1 Pound pecans
2 Pkgs. chocolate chips
1 Jar Mashmallow Creme
     Boil 7 minutes the sugar, butter and milk, stirring constantly.  Pour
into mixture of pecans, chocolate chips and Marshmallow Creme.  Drop on foil
paper to cool.  Makes 3 dozen.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
HORSE'S NECK

     John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK has:

_horse's neck._  A strip of lemon or orange peel cut from the fruit in a
continuous spiral and usually served as a garnish in a cocktail (1900).  The
term is also a euphemism for "horse's ass," but it had not been established
when a drink by the name of "horse's neck" first appeared.

     From MODERN AMERICAN DRINKS (Merriam Company, NY, 1895) by George J.
Kappeler, pg. 68:

     _Horse's Neck._
     Cut the peel from a lemon in one long piece, place in a thin
punch-glass, add a bottle of cold imported ginger ale.


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Tue Jun 27 11:44:46 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 06:44:46 -0500
Subject: outdated metaphors
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.064446.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In today's NYTimes an article on technospeak lists some outdated metaphors:

Earlier technological developments left their mark on the language. The
          railroads gave rise to expressions like "going off the rails" and
"getting
          sidetracked"; the steam engine produced "working up a head of steam"
          and "full steam ahead"; and the automobile left us with "pedal to
the
          metal," "firing on all cylinders" and "eatin' concrete."


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Tue Jun 27 12:29:36 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 07:29:36 -0500
Subject: clitoris
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.072936.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There are common names for most body parts but not all.

Is there one for clitoris?  It sounds too medical for poetic use, and
'bump' which I used in a poem, seems too clunky.

Suggestions anyone?

Bob Wachal


From derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM  Tue Jun 27 12:55:37 2000
From: derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM (Derrick Chapman)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:55:37 -0400
Subject: clitoris
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000627072936.007d3b10@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.085537.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Clit" is a commonly heard term.  Also the truly poetic "little man in the
boat."  I think the Asiatic reference is the Pearl of the Jade Gate.

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Robert S. Wachal
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 8:30 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: clitoris


There are common names for most body parts but not all.

Is there one for clitoris?  It sounds too medical for poetic use, and
'bump' which I used in a poem, seems too clunky.

Suggestions anyone?

Bob Wachal


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Jun 27 12:57:52 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:57:52 +0100
Subject: clitoris
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.135752.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> There are common names for most body parts but not all.
>
> Is there one for clitoris?  It sounds too medical for poetic use, and
> 'bump' which I used in a poem, seems too clunky.
>
> Suggestions anyone?
>
> Bob Wachal
>

The 'common' name is 'clit'.  But I don't think 'clitoris' is any more
medical sounding than 'penis'.  It's certainly better than
'pseudophallus' or anything like that.

Some figurative/slang names are the 'pearl', 'button', and the
ever-popular 'little man in the boat'.

Not sure I want to know about the poem,
Lynne


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Tue Jun 27 12:58:17 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:58:17 -0400
Subject: clitoris
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.085817.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Lynne Murphy <lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: clitoris


>The 'common' name is 'clit'.  But I don't think 'clitoris' is any more
>medical sounding than 'penis'.  It's certainly better than
>'pseudophallus' or anything like that.
>
>Some figurative/slang names are the 'pearl', 'button', and the
>ever-popular 'little man in the boat'.
>
>Not sure I want to know about the poem,


I've seen 'clittie'...rhymes with kitty...but I've been sheltered...8-)

bkd


From derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM  Tue Jun 27 13:03:40 2000
From: derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM (Derrick Chapman)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:03:40 -0400
Subject: clitoris
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000627072936.007d3b10@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.090340.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ah, here is a good source of referants:
http://www.hps-online.com/tsy6.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Robert S. Wachal
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 8:30 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: clitoris


There are common names for most body parts but not all.

Is there one for clitoris?  It sounds too medical for poetic use, and
'bump' which I used in a poem, seems too clunky.

Suggestions anyone?

Bob Wachal


From derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM  Tue Jun 27 13:03:39 2000
From: derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM (Derrick Chapman)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:03:39 -0400
Subject: virtually and literally outdated metaphors
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000627064446.007f5540@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.090339.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Burn rubber" for automobiles.
"down the line" for trains.

The Shakespearean "hoist on his own petard" for mining.

I don't think they are outdated, just apt to be used even when their
original context is not clearly recognized by the user.

By the way, have you noticed how the word "literally" is often used to mean
its exact opposite?  One day my wife told me her principal had "literally
torn this teacher up in an argument!"

Kinda like "virtually" sometimes means "except for the fact that it isn't,
it is."


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Robert S. Wachal
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 7:45 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: outdated metaphors


In today's NYTimes an article on technospeak lists some outdated metaphors:

Earlier technological developments left their mark on the language. The
          railroads gave rise to expressions like "going off the rails" and
"getting
          sidetracked"; the steam engine produced "working up a head of
steam"
          and "full steam ahead"; and the automobile left us with "pedal to
the
          metal," "firing on all cylinders" and "eatin' concrete."


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 27 12:52:13 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:52:13 -0400
Subject: clitoris
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000627072936.007d3b10@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.085213.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Robert S. Wachal wrote:

> There are common names for most body parts but not all.
>
> Is there one for clitoris?  It sounds too medical for poetic use, and
> 'bump' which I used in a poem, seems too clunky.

Maybe the point of your query is that you are looking for non-slang terms,
but slang terms for clitoris include clit, clitty, boy in the boat, man in
the boat, love button, button, switch.  More could undoubtedly be found in
a slang thesaurus.

Fred Shapiro


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Tue Jun 27 13:20:47 2000
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen Miller)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:20:47 -0400
Subject: Katydid
In-Reply-To: <20000626215649.3A8ED30F08@mail1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.092047.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


I grew up in the midwest and always called them cicadas - till I got to
Louisiana.




At 05:50 PM 6/26/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Katydids, anyone (else)?
>
>d.

Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times

"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret: It is only with the heart
that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the
eye."                 Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM  Tue Jun 27 13:19:53 2000
From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Pearsons, Enid)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:19:53 -0400
Subject: GEnome or geNOME
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.091953.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As do Random House Webster's Unabridged and College dictionaries.

-----Original Message-----
From: Donald M. Lance [mailto:LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU]
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 6:22 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: GEnome or geNOME

<snippet>In addition to AHD, Webster's 10th, the Oxford American Dictionary
and Language Guide, and the Cambridge International Dictionary of English
all have GEnom.


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Tue Jun 27 13:53:49 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:53:49 -0500
Subject: clitoris
In-Reply-To: <01c301bfe037$5d823260$8a70cec0@qwe.graphnet.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.085349.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, 'pearl' fits the poem nicely.

Bob

At 08:58 AM 6/27/00 -0400, Bruce Dykes wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lynne Murphy <lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Date: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 8:55 AM
>Subject: Re: clitoris
>
>
>>The 'common' name is 'clit'.  But I don't think 'clitoris' is any more
>>medical sounding than 'penis'.  It's certainly better than
>>'pseudophallus' or anything like that.
>>
>>Some figurative/slang names are the 'pearl', 'button', and the
>>ever-popular 'little man in the boat'.
>>
>>Not sure I want to know about the poem,
>
>
>I've seen 'clittie'...rhymes with kitty...but I've been sheltered...8-)
>
>bkd
>
>


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Tue Jun 27 14:58:14 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:58:14 -0500
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.095814.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bob asks:

> Hey, Natalie,
>
> Could you use dark brown sugar here?  I might just try this recipe.

I don't know.  I've never made them.  But I've consumed hundreds
of them, the best of them made in New Orleans of course.

   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Tue Jun 27 14:59:49 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:59:49 -0500
Subject: Turtles or ?
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.095949.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Rudy says:
> Millionnaires as I recall is a brand name, but I'm like Greg, I feel sure

Yes.  Millionnaires was the brand (which I think still exists).

   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)
     almost late for class and hungry for turtles and pralines


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 27 15:26:08 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:26:08 -0400
Subject: clitoris
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10006270843540.13384-100000@morpheus.cis.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.112608.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The "Glossary of Sexual and Scatalogical Euphemisms"--whose web site
(http://www.uta.fi/FAST/GC/sex-scat.html) was posted on ads earlier--lists,
among some of the other suggestions posted here ("button", "clitty"), two
more variants of the ubiquitous man in the boat:  "the boy-in-the-bush",
"the man-in-the-canoe".   "Mugget" is listed in the same general
"female-genital related" column but I've never previously encountered
it--probably not a safe bet for the poem.  The glossary doesn't include
"nub", which I have heard or seen.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 27 15:34:39 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:34:39 -0400
Subject: Mugget again
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.113439.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oops.  Scratch that.  I had just checked the on-line OED and a couple of
other standard dictionaries and couldn't find any "female-genital related"
senses.  (That on-line glossary doesn't give specific glosses.)  But then I
tried the Spears _Dictionary of Slang and Euphemism_, and sure enough there
it was:

MUGGET 'a false vulva with a pubic wig worn by male homosexual prostitutes
in drag'

--not to be confused with MERKIN, of course.  In any case, 'mugget' would
not have been a good choice for the poem.

larry


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Tue Jun 27 15:43:14 2000
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:43:14 -0400
Subject: English words for @
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.114314.0400.PAUL@MCFEDRIES.COM>

I know I'm competing with the "clitoris" thread on this one, but I've heard
various English words used for the @ symbol, including the following:

at
snail
strudel
vortex
whorl

Does anybody know of any others? I tried searching the archives, but
received the following error:

The requested method POST is not allowed for the URL
/excite/AT-adslsearch.cgi.

Thanks a bunch.

Paul

======================================
Home: http://www.mcfedries.com/
Books: http://www.mcfedries.com/books/
Word Spy: http://www.wordspy.com/
======================================


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 27 16:02:47 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:02:47 -0400
Subject: English words for @
In-Reply-To: <011b01bfe04e$68c6e780$8321d0d8@mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.120247.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:43 AM -0400 6/27/00, Paul McFedries wrote:
>I know I'm competing with the "clitoris" thread on this one, but I've heard
>various English words used for the @ symbol, including the following:
>
>at
>snail
>strudel
>vortex
>whorl
>
>Does anybody know of any others? I tried searching the archives, but
>received the following error:
>
>The requested method POST is not allowed for the URL
>/excite/AT-adslsearch.cgi.
>
>Thanks a bunch.
>
>Paul
>
Here's Michael Quinion's posting on the subject;sorry for the formating.
(Note the alleged popularity of "whirlpool" in this and the other
summaries.)  The main Linguist List summary on the topic can be found in
the archives at the following two references:

LINGUIST List:  Vol-7-968. Tue Jul 2 1996. ISSN: 1068-4875. Lines:  1387
Subject: 7.968, Sum: The @ symbol

LINGUIST List:  Vol-7-1177. Tue Aug 20 1996. ISSN: 1068-4875. Lines:  176
Sum: The @ sign: addendum

Quinion's World Wide Words column, 4/27/00:

                                      WHERE IT'S AT
                             Names for a common symbol


                            The @ symbol has been a central part of the
Internet and its forerunners ever since it was chosen to be a
                            separator in e-mail addresses by Ray Tomlinson
in 1972. From puzzled comments which surface from
                            time to time in various newsgroups, it appears
the biggest problem for many Net users is deciding what to
                            call it. This is perhaps unsurprising, as
outside the narrow limits of bookkeeping, invoicing and related
                            areas few people use it regularly. Even fewer
ever have to find a name for it, so it is just noted mentally as
                            something like "that letter a with the curly
line round it".

                            It use in business actually goes back to late
medieval times. It was originally a contraction for the Latin
                            word ad, meaning "to, toward, at" and was used
in accounts or invoices to introduce the price of
                            something ("3 yds of lace for my lady @ 1/4d a
yard"). In cursive writing, the upright stroke of the 'd'
                            curved over to the left and extended around the
'a'; eventually the lower part fused with the 'a' to form one
                            symbol. Even after Latin ceased to be commonly
understood, the symbol remained in use with the
                            equivalent English sense of at. Because
business employed it, it was put on typewriter keyboards from
                            about 1880 onwards, though it is very
noticeable that the designers of several of the early machines didn't
                            think it important enough to include it
(neither the Sholes keyboard of 1873 nor the early Caligraph one
                            had it, giving preference to the ampersand
instead), and was carried over to the standard computer character
                            sets of EBCDIC and ASCII in the sixties. From
there, it has spread out across the networked world,
                            perforce even into language groups such as
Arabic, Tamil or Japanese which do not use the Roman
                            alphabet.

                            A discussion on the LINGUIST discussion list
about names for @ in various languages produced an
                            enormous response, from which most of the facts
which follow are drawn. Some have just transliterated
                            the English name 'at' or 'commercial at' into
the local language. What is interesting is that nearly all the
                            languages cited have developed colloquial names
for it which have food or animal references.

                            In German, it is frequently called Klammeraffe,
'spider monkey' (you can imagine the monkey's tail),
                            though this word also has a figurative sense
very similar to that of the English 'leech' ("He grips like a
                            leech"). Danish has grisehale, 'pig's tail' (as
does Norwegian), but more commonly calls it snabel a, 'a
                            (with an) elephant's trunk', as does Swedish,
where it is the name recommended by the Swedish Language
                            Board. Dutch has apestaart or apestaartje,
'(little) monkey's tail' (the 'je' is a diminutive); this turns up
                            in Friesian as apesturtsje and in Swedish and
Finnish in the form apinanhanta. Finnish also has
                            kissanhäntä, 'cat's tail' and, most
wonderfully, miukumauku, 'the miaow sign'. In Hungarian it is kukac,
                            'worm; maggot', in Russian 'little dog', in
Serbian majmun, 'monkey', with a similar term in Bulgarian.
                            Both Spanish and Portuguese have arroba, which
derives from a unit of weight. In Thai, the name
                            transliterates as 'the wiggling worm-like
character'. Czechs often call it zavinàc which is a rolled-up
                            herring or rollmop; the most-used Hebrew term
is strudel, from the famous Viennese rolled-up apple
                            sweet. Another common Swedish name is
kanelbulle, 'cinnamon bun', which is rolled up in a similar way.

                            The most curious usage, because it seems to
have spread furthest from its origins, whatever they are, is
                            snail. The French have called it escargot for a
long time (though more formal terms are arobase or a
                            commercial), but the term is also common in
Italian (chiocciola), and has recently appeared in Hebrew
                            (shablul), Korean (dalphaengi) and Esperanto
(heliko).

                            In English the name of the sign seems to be
most commonly given as at or, more fully, commercial at,
                            which is the official name given to it in the
international standard character sets. Other names include
                            whirlpool (from its use in the joke computer
language INTERCAL) and fetch (from FORTH), but these
                            are much less common. A couple of the
international names have come over into English: snail is fairly
                            frequently used; more surprisingly, so is
snabel from Danish.

                            Even so, as far as English is concerned at is
likely to remain the standard name for the symbol. But there
                            is evidence that the sign itself is moving out
from its Internet heartland to printed publications. Recently
                            the British newspaper, the Guardian, began to
advertise a bookselling service by post, whose title (not
                            e-mail address) is "Books at The Guardian". Do I
detect a trend?

                            At least we shall have no problem finding a
name for the symbol.

                            References
                              Beeching, Wilfred A Century of the Typewriter
British Typewriter Museum Publishing, Bournemouth,
                            England, 1990
                              Chung, Karen S Linguist List, number 7.968, 2
July 1996. Available from

http://www.emich.edu/~linguist/issues/html/7-968.html
                              Hafner, Katie & Lyon, Matthew Where Wizards
Stay Up Late: the Origins of the Internet Simon &
                            Schuster, 1996
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From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Jun 27 15:49:06 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:49:06 -0400
Subject: smooth turtles
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.114906.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Steve K." <stevek at SHORE.NET> writes:

>>>>>
By the way, I believe that Smoothie is a trademark, if I recall correctly
from researching this.
<<<<<

Isn't "Turtle", for those chocolate-nut candies, also one?

-- Mark


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Jun 27 15:52:01 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:52:01 -0400
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.115201.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dale Coye writes:

>>>>>
When I do something similar with my students (who are 99% New Jerseyans) I
ask them to chose someone from their own generation, parents generation, and
grandparents-- all native New Jerseyans.    Changes are evident in some words
(the increasing use of 'try and' vs. 'try to',  of the /ai/ pronunciation of
either at the expense of /i:/ are particularly dramatic.
<<<<<

Would you clarify that last one? I have a hard time accepting "try" as
homophonous with "tree".

-- Mark A. Mandel


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 27 16:16:40 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:16:40 -0400
Subject: Article on computer slang in the Times
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.121640.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On the first page of today's Arts section (6/27/00) in the New York Times,
Michiko Kakutani, the Times' current principal book reviewer, writes about
computer slang:

When the Geeks Get Snide
Computer Slang Scoffs at Wetware (the Humans)

This can be downloaded from the Times web site and Nexis/Lexis.  She cites
Gareth's Jargon Watch and other apparently reputable sources, both on-line
and dead-tree.

larry


From jlyons at NETMARKETGROUP.COM  Tue Jun 27 16:25:59 2000
From: jlyons at NETMARKETGROUP.COM (Lyons, Jennifer M)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:25:59 -0400
Subject: English words for @
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.122559.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone else noticed people using @ to mean "about" or "approximately"?
I'd like to know where this usage comes from, since it's a pet peeve of mine
:)

Jen


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Tue Jun 27 16:34:52 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:34:52 +0100
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <8525690B.0057162A.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.173452.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:

}Dale Coye writes:
}
}>>>>>
}When I do something similar with my students (who are 99% New Jerseyans) I
}ask them to chose someone from their own generation, parents generation, and
}grandparents-- all native New Jerseyans.    Changes are evident in some words
}(the increasing use of 'try and' vs. 'try to',  of the /ai/ pronunciation of
}either at the expense of /i:/ are particularly dramatic.
}<<<<<
}
}Would you clarify that last one? I have a hard time accepting "try" as
}homophonous with "tree".
}
}-- Mark A. Mandel
}

Perhaps that should read :
>>>of the /ai/ pronunciation of "either" <<<

--Aa

________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                  Departments of English Language and
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron       Theoretical & Applied  Linguistics

"MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Jun 27 18:01:20 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:01:20 -0700
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.110120.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>
> Who wants to be a turtle?

Are you a turtle?


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Jun 27 18:04:13 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:04:13 -0700
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.110413.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bob,
A tip from someone who used to make these dental damaging delights - if the
mixture is not hardening into the cookie-like shapes, scrape everything back
into the pan, and reheat with a very small amount of cream (can be
half-and-half, as I recall).  It causes the mixture to harden.
Andrea

Bob Haas wrote:
>
> Hey, Natalie,
>
> Could you use dark brown sugar here?  I might just try this recipe.
>
> bob
>
> > From: Natalie Maynor <maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU>
> > Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:35:35 -0500
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: turtle candy
> >
> > Mama Two's Pralines
> >
> > 2 cups sugar (light brown, if possible)
> > 2 cups granulated sugar
> > 1 small can evaporated milk
> > 1 cup water
> > 2 tablespoons white syrup
> > 1/2 teaspoon soda
> > 2 teaspoons vanilla
> > 2 tablespoons butter
> > 1 cup pecans (whote)
> >
> > Blend together milk, water, soda, and syrup.  Blend well or milk
> > will curdle.  Stir in mixed brown and white sugar.  Cook to soft
> > ball stage.  Remove from fire and beat until light brown.  Put in
> > vanilla, then butter, and, last, pecans.  Drop on wax paper and
> > let cool.  Makes about 24 good-sized patties.


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun 27 18:20:57 2000
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:20:57 -0400
Subject: Article on computer slang in the Times
In-Reply-To: <v04011704b57e82fb78bd@[130.132.116.12]>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.142057.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:16:40 -0400
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Article on computer slang in the Times
>
> On the first page of today's Arts section (6/27/00) in the New York Times,
> Michiko Kakutani, the Times' current principal book reviewer, writes about
> computer slang:
>
> When the Geeks Get Snide
> Computer Slang Scoffs at Wetware (the Humans)
>
> This can be downloaded from the Times web site and Nexis/Lexis.  She cites
> Gareth's Jargon Watch and other apparently reputable sources...

Well damn me with faint praise :-)

The piece is not bad, but she misses one important component in this
lexicon: HUMOR! As I point out in Jargon Watch, and when talking about
online slang, a lot of this language (especially the material compiled in my
column and book) is not used in daily conversation, but more often as a
water cooler punch line -- as a way of getting a laugh and calling attention
to our new "wired" condition. I don't think there are many people, deep geek
or otherwise, who use terms like "bio-break" or "404" in everyday speech.

It is true, as the article makes clear, that these words point to a lot of
issues about what some post-modern academics might call "cyborganization,"
the leaking of human into machine and the accelerated migration of
technology into our lives (and into our flesh). I think that too often,
people looking into the realm of "cyberculture" fail to see the humor, irony
and sophistication with which many of these words are used.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Jun 27 18:18:14 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:18:14 -0700
Subject: Turtles; Horse's Neck
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.111814.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>    The book SCIENTIFIC BAR-TENDING (1884) that I cited for "Manhattan" was
> written by Joseph W. Gibson, but his name did not appear on the cover.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------------------
> TURTLES
>
> "I can't see me loving nobody but you."
> --TURTLES, "Happy Together."
>
>    From the TRIED AND TRUE COOK BOOK (First Methodist Church, Gonzales,
> Texas, 1961), pg. 114:
>
>      _TURTLES_
> 4 1/2 Cups sugar
> 1 Stick butter (less 1 in.)
> 1 Large can evaporated milk
> 1 Pound pecans
> 2 Pkgs. chocolate chips
> 1 Jar Mashmallow Creme
>      Boil 7 minutes the sugar, butter and milk, stirring constantly.  Pour
> into mixture of pecans, chocolate chips and Marshmallow Creme.  Drop on foil
> paper to cool.  Makes 3 dozen.

FYI, sticks of butter in Texas (and Connecticut) are longer and thinner than
those in California.  The butter manufacturers state the reason as "regional
preference".


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 27 18:37:55 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:37:55 -0400
Subject: Article on computer slang in the Times
In-Reply-To: <B57E68C9.FA8%garethb2@earthlink.net> from "Gareth Branwyn" at
 Jun 27, 2000 02:20:57 PM
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.143755.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gareth Branwyn writes:

> The piece is not bad, but she misses one important component in this
> lexicon: HUMOR! As I point out in Jargon Watch, and when talking about
> online slang, a lot of this language (especially the material compiled in my
> column and book) is not used in daily conversation, but more often as a
> water cooler punch line -- as a way of getting a laugh and calling attention
> to our new "wired" condition. I don't think there are many people, deep geek
> or otherwise, who use terms like "bio-break" or "404" in everyday speech.
>
> It is true, as the article makes clear, that these words point to a lot of
> issues about what some post-modern academics might call "cyborganization,"
> the leaking of human into machine and the accelerated migration of
> technology into our lives (and into our flesh). I think that too often,
> people looking into the realm of "cyberculture" fail to see the humor, irony
> and sophistication with which many of these words are used.

I think this article, as so many about slang or vocabulary, suffers
greatly from an uncritical acceptance of glossaries or dictionaries
as an accurate representation of the subcultures that spawned their
language. Once one has (incorrectly) accepted this fact, it leads to
the even greater error that the words must shed some light on the
subculture.

This annoys me so much I might actually write in about it. Nowhere
does Kakutani suggest that she has actually spoken to computer
people about this language, or anything like that--she's _just_
writing about dictionaries as if they mean something a lot deeper
than they do in this case.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun 27 18:47:46 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:47:46 -0700
Subject: turtle candy
In-Reply-To: <3958EC9D.D0F0C119@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.114746.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Could I substitute 1% milk, to make it low-fat?  (Just asking:-)

--On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 11:04 AM -0700 "A. Vine" <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> wrote:

> Bob,
> A tip from someone who used to make these dental damaging delights - if
> the mixture is not hardening into the cookie-like shapes, scrape
> everything back into the pan, and reheat with a very small amount of
> cream (can be half-and-half, as I recall).  It causes the mixture to
> harden.
> Andrea
>
> Bob Haas wrote:
>>
>> Hey, Natalie,
>>
>> Could you use dark brown sugar here?  I might just try this recipe.
>>
>> bob
>>
>> > From: Natalie Maynor <maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU>
>> > Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:35:35 -0500
>> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> > Subject: Re: turtle candy
>> >
>> > Mama Two's Pralines
>> >
>> > 2 cups sugar (light brown, if possible)
>> > 2 cups granulated sugar
>> > 1 small can evaporated milk
>> > 1 cup water
>> > 2 tablespoons white syrup
>> > 1/2 teaspoon soda
>> > 2 teaspoons vanilla
>> > 2 tablespoons butter
>> > 1 cup pecans (whote)
>> >
>> > Blend together milk, water, soda, and syrup.  Blend well or milk
>> > will curdle.  Stir in mixed brown and white sugar.  Cook to soft
>> > ball stage.  Remove from fire and beat until light brown.  Put in
>> > vanilla, then butter, and, last, pecans.  Drop on wax paper and
>> > let cool.  Makes about 24 good-sized patties.



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From pds at VISI.COM  Tue Jun 27 23:55:24 2000
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:55:24 -0500
Subject: turtle candy
In-Reply-To: <39583ADA.947FB0C6@corn.cso.niu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.185524.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:25 AM 6/27/2000 -0500, Mike Salovesh wrote:
>I had the impression that both Turtles and Pixies were exclusive trade
>marks,
. . .
>I know that Nestlé makes a product called "Turtles" because I have an
>example in front of me.

I have an empty box of Nestlé's Turtles that claims them to be from the
"Original DeMets recipe."  In fact, by my increasingly unreliable
recollection, Nestlé's ownership of Turtles is relatively recent.  We've
been boycotting Nestlé since the '70s, but gave up Turtles just a few years
ago.  [My friends only go down to the School of the Americas and get
themselves arrested.]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Wed Jun 28 00:05:45 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:05:45 -0700
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.170545.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Russell Stover produces Turtles, but they might call them something like "Pecan
delights".
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Kid" by Aardman Animation


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 28 01:21:25 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:21:25 -0700
Subject: whole nine yards
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.182125.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

for a friend who's not on this list (and is not a linguist,
linguist-wannabe, or even linguistics-hanger-on), i'm asking
two questions, a general one and a particular one.  i think
we might have discussed the general question here.  i'm almost
positive we've discussed the specific question here, but i find
nothing on it in the archives or in the faq.

so i'm sort of embarrassed to be asking.  anyway...

1.  are there any reliable compendia of phrase origins, with
reasonably broad coverage?  something you would recommend to
someone like my friend?  (i have a couple of the old funk volumes -
A Word in Your Ear, and A Hog on Ice - and of course a fair number
of phrases are treated in unabridged dictionaries, in DARE, in
lighter, etc., but i don't have anything that would suit my
friend's needs.  but then phrase origins is a topic way way off
my academic interests.)

2.  specifically, what about THE WHOLE NINE YARDS?  the ADS blurb
for its faq mentions the expression, but then i found nothing in
the faq about it.  (this could well be an incompetence in my web
mastery, of course.)  is there a good discussion of this particular
expression, especially a discussion someplace accessible to the
non-academic?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From hstahlke at GW.BSU.EDU  Wed Jun 28 02:21:44 2000
From: hstahlke at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:21:44 -0500
Subject: whole nine yards
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.212144.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold,

I can't help you on the source for phrase origins, beyond suggesting the legal series that's been around for at least a century, Words and Phrases, but that will address only those that have been adjudicated and may not deal with origins.

As to "the whole nine yards," the best explanation I've found is that the ammunition belts for a WWII Spitfire were nine yards long.  If a pilot emptied his magazines in a dog fight, he had shot the whole nine yards.  I can't give you a source for this.

Herb Stahlke

<<< zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  6/27  8:35p >>>
for a friend who's not on this list (and is not a linguist,
linguist-wannabe, or even linguistics-hanger-on), i'm asking
two questions, a general one and a particular one.  i think
we might have discussed the general question here.  i'm almost
positive we've discussed the specific question here, but i find
nothing on it in the archives or in the faq.

so i'm sort of embarrassed to be asking.  anyway...

1.  are there any reliable compendia of phrase origins, with
reasonably broad coverage?  something you would recommend to
someone like my friend?  (i have a couple of the old funk volumes -
A Word in Your Ear, and A Hog on Ice - and of course a fair number
of phrases are treated in unabridged dictionaries, in DARE, in
lighter, etc., but i don't have anything that would suit my
friend's needs.  but then phrase origins is a topic way way off
my academic interests.)

2.  specifically, what about THE WHOLE NINE YARDS?  the ADS blurb
for its faq mentions the expression, but then i found nothing in
the faq about it.  (this could well be an incompetence in my web
mastery, of course.)  is there a good discussion of this particular
expression, especially a discussion someplace accessible to the
non-academic?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 28 02:20:31 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:20:31 -0400
Subject: whole nine yards
In-Reply-To: <200006280121.SAA16076@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.222031.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Arnold Zwicky wrote:

> 1.  are there any reliable compendia of phrase origins, with
> reasonably broad coverage?  something you would recommend to
> someone like my friend?  (i have a couple of the old funk volumes -
> A Word in Your Ear, and A Hog on Ice - and of course a fair number
> of phrases are treated in unabridged dictionaries, in DARE, in
> lighter, etc., but i don't have anything that would suit my
> friend's needs.  but then phrase origins is a topic way way off
> my academic interests.)

The OED is a reliable compendium of phrase origins, in the sense that it
usually sets forth the earliest known evidence of a phrase's usage.  It is
reliable in another sense as well, that it usually does not attempt to
explain why the phrase arose, thus avoiding the erroneous speculation that
everyone else loves to concoct, but this virtue tends to be frustrating to
readers who crave creation-myths.  Assuming that the OED is not what your
friend would want, then the answer is no, there are no reliable compendia
of phrase origins.  Those works that do exist, such as those by the
Morrises, Ciardi, Hendrickson, etc., are for the most part terrible.

> 2.  specifically, what about THE WHOLE NINE YARDS?  the ADS blurb
> for its faq mentions the expression, but then i found nothing in
> the faq about it.  (this could well be an incompetence in my web
> mastery, of course.)  is there a good discussion of this particular
> expression, especially a discussion someplace accessible to the
> non-academic?

I believe that Jesse's Word of the Day, by our own Jesse Sheidlower, has a
good discussion of this.

Fred Shapiro


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 28 02:59:42 2000
From: faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:59:42 -0400
Subject: whole nine yards
In-Reply-To: <s9591aee.046@gw.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.225942.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:21 PM -0500 6/27/2000, Herb Stahlke wrote, ostensibly about Re:
whole nine yards:
>Arnold,
>
>I can't help you on the source for phrase origins, beyond suggesting
>the legal series that's been around for at least a century, Words
>and Phrases, but that will address only those that have been
>adjudicated and may not deal with origins.
>
>As to "the whole nine yards," the best explanation I've found is
>that the ammunition belts for a WWII Spitfire were nine yards long.
>If a pilot emptied his magazines in a dog fight, he had shot the
>whole nine yards.  I can't give you a source for this.
>
For some reason, this kind of word-and-phrase origin question pops up
on the alt.folklore.urban newsgroup with a fair degree of regularity
("rule of thumb" is another perennial). Most of the discussion
(which, despite being one of the few linguists participating, I tend
to skip over fairly quickly) consists in demonstrating that, in the
present instance, the use of the phrase is attested well prior to
WWII. (Of course, there's the countervailing trend that wants to
accept any just-so-story etymology profferred, no matter how
implausible.) From the afu faq:

>T. There is no good etymology for the phrase "The whole nine yards."
>T.Suggestions have included: Volume in a concrete mixer, coal truck,
>or a wealthy person's grave; amount of cloth in a man's custom-made
>(i.e., "bespoke") suit, sports games, funeral shroud, kilt, in a
>bolt of cloth, square area in a ship's sails, and volume in a
>soldier's pack. In the last year or so, the WWII fighter plane ammo
>belt theory has come back in vogue.

Here, "T" means "true beyond a reasonable doubt" and polarity
matters. This entry was probably written in the mid-90s.

Alice
--
Alice Faber                                       tel. (203) 865-6163
Haskins Laboratories                              fax  (203) 865-8963
270 Crown St           new improved email: faber at pop.haskins.yale.edu
New Haven, CT 06511    old email, if you must: faber at haskins.yale.edu


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Jun 28 02:36:43 2000
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:36:43 -0500
Subject: National Geographic
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.213643.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The July issue of _National Geographic_ arrived today and, in the back,
there is a "Department" called CartoGraphic. This month's column is on
"America's Pathcwork of Colloquiamisms". It shows distributions of
pronunciations of greasy, words for harmonica, thunderstorms, and sandlot
baseball. It mentions DARE, and Fred Cassidy.

Barbara Need
UChicago Linguistics


From dcoles at HOME.COM  Wed Jun 28 06:15:42 2000
From: dcoles at HOME.COM (dcoles)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:15:42 -0700
Subject: That @ symbol
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.231542.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I learned as a kid to read "3 packages @ $1 = $3," which was spoken as follows:
"three packages at one dollar each equals three dollars."
So the @ symbol included both "at" and "each" in its meaning - otherwise, it would have been spoken, "three packages at one dollar equals three dollars." 
My question is, is there such a thing as a 'phrasal' symbol? I've always just called @ the at/each thing.
Also, to Jennifer Lyons - I'm with you on the "approximately" or "about" peeve!
Cheers,
Devon Coles 
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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 28 06:28:15 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 02:28:15 EDT
Subject: See you later (_i.e._, ta-ta, farewell, auf wiedersehn, goodbye)
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.022815.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SEE YOU LATER

    The RHHDAS has "later" and insists that "see you later" is jazz slang.  A
1922 "See youse later" citation is given.  I haven't checked the MOA or
American Memory yet.
    This is from the NEW YORK DISPATCH, 31 May 1885, "High-School Slang," pg.
7, col. 6:

     "I just met Mac Downley down on the av," murmured the first girl.
    "Do you know I think he's a regular gillie?"
     "You bet!"
     "My, though, don't he think he's an awful swell?"
     "Well, I should smile--he takes the belt."
     "I wish you wouldn't say 'takes the belt,' Floy.  Don't you know that's
a regular chestnut, and none of the girls in our gang use it any more?"
     "Well, you needn't get so huffy about it.  One can't keep up the
procession in all the latest wrinkles."
     "We had a jim-dandy time at the party last night, didn't we?"
     "Well, I should snicker to smile!  Did you catch on to the dude I
mashed?"
     "Well I should blush to murmur.  He's awfully jolly."
     "He was regular peaches.  I dropped to his racket the first time he
pulled his handkerchief on me."
     "Oh, you giddy thing!  First thing you know the old dragon up to the
house will be on to your lead."
     "I don't care.  It's only when he shells out the shekels that I have any
use for him."
     "Say can't you drop down on me to-night up at the house?"
     "Thanks, awfully.  If my mash don't come round, I guess I will come over
and slide down your banisters."
     "Ta ta; see you later."
     "Over the reservoir."
     The giddy creatures disappeared within the gates of the school yard,
while the writer pursued his way pondering upon the boasted education of the
public schools, and the 19th century culture, about which we boast so much.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MISC.

     "Club Sandwich" is in the NYPL Menu Collection, The Windsor (NY), carte
du jour, 1897.  I've got more to read.
     No "chimichanga" in THE GOOD LIFE: NEW MEXICO TRADITIONS AND FOOD (1949,
1982 reprint) by Fabiola Cabeza de Baca Gilbert.  I requested Cleofas M.
Jaramillo's THE GENUINE NEW MEXICO TASTY RECIPES (1939, 1981 reprint), but
the NYPL microfilm is missing.  Anyone know where else it is?


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 28 10:10:07 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 06:10:07 -0400
Subject: whole nine yards
In-Reply-To: <a04320400b57f1877548b@[208.58.251.99]>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.061007.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Alice Faber wrote:

> (which, despite being one of the few linguists participating, I tend
> to skip over fairly quickly) consists in demonstrating that, in the
> present instance, the use of the phrase is attested well prior to
> WWII. (Of course, there's the countervailing trend that wants to

In fact, there is absolutely no attestation of this phrase before the
mid-1960s.  None of the popular theories is backed by any real evidence.

Fred Shapiro


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 28 10:19:07 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 06:19:07 -0400
Subject: See you later (_i.e._, ta-ta, farewell, auf wiedersehn,
 goodbye)
In-Reply-To: <a0.66ffaba.268af4ff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.061907.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>      No "chimichanga" in THE GOOD LIFE: NEW MEXICO TRADITIONS AND FOOD (1949,
> 1982 reprint) by Fabiola Cabeza de Baca Gilbert.  I requested Cleofas M.
> Jaramillo's THE GENUINE NEW MEXICO TASTY RECIPES (1939, 1981 reprint), but
> the NYPL microfilm is missing.  Anyone know where else it is?

Stanford, USC, Brigham Young, UC-Santa Barbara, Los Angeles Public, among
others.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From bern61 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 28 10:29:15 2000
From: bern61 at YAHOO.COM (Bernie Theobald)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 03:29:15 -0700
Subject: Yahoo! Auto Response
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.032915.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fuck off, I am on vacation!!!

--------------------


Original Message:


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_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From words at QUINION.COM  Wed Jun 28 10:30:07 2000
From: words at QUINION.COM (Michael Quinion)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:30:07 +0100
Subject: Jukebox / English words for @ / Whole nine yards
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.113007.0100.>

Hey, sudden popularity here!

There's just time for a quick note on recent mentions of World
Wide Words pieces before my departure to Ireland for two weeks:

It was unexpected to have a mini-spate (spat?) of critical
comments on just three words in the piece about 'jukebox': "of
all places", in reference to the first recorded appearance of
the word in Time magazine. Following a disquisition about low-
life, to be suddenly elevated to the stratosphere by a reference
to that august magazine did seem to justify the comment.

I agree that some of the supposedly common words for @,
especially 'whirlpool', are more notable for being quoted in
pieces like mine than for real life usage; that word originated
as a joke anyway, so perhaps that is to be expected. (If I've
fallen into the trap Jesse Sheidlower mentions - uncritical
writing on language - I apologise!)

All those interested in the pieces posted here, plus about 700
others, may like to visit <http://www.quinion.com/words/>, the
home of World Wide Words. You will find many other matters that
could be commented upon ...

> 1.  are there any reliable compendia of phrase origins, with
> reasonably broad coverage?  something you would recommend to
> someone like my friend? ... 2.  specifically, what about THE
> WHOLE NINE YARDS?

Ahem! See <http://www.quinion.com/words/articles/nineyards.htm>.
This is basically a pull-together of what is known, plus a
discussion of why most of the theories are rubbish. The 27ft of
WW2 aircraft machine-gun ammo seems to be the best bet as the
origin, but I'm not putting money on it ...

Members of this list may also like to note for future reference
that my mailings contain the following tagline:

* WORLD WIDE WORDS is copyright (c) Michael B Quinion 2000. You
  may reproduce this mailing in whole or in part in other free
  media provided that you acknowledge the source and quote the
  Web address of <http://www.quinion.com/words/>.


--
Michael Quinion
World Wide Words
<words at quinion.com>
<http://www.quinion.com/words/>


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 28 10:56:09 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 06:56:09 -0400
Subject: whole nine yards
In-Reply-To: <200006280121.SAA16076@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.065609.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I see that Peter Tamony had material on "the whole nine yards."  Has
anyone ever looked at this?  Barry?  Jesse?



Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Wed Jun 28 11:56:37 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:56:37 -0400
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.075637.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Aaron E. Drews" <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK> writes:

>>>>>
}Dale Coye writes:
}>>>>>
}    [...]     Changes are evident in some words
}(the increasing use of 'try and' vs. 'try to',  of the /ai/ pronunciation of
}either at the expense of /i:/ are particularly dramatic.
}<<<<<
}
}Would you clarify that last one? I have a hard time accepting "try" as
}homophonous with "tree".

Perhaps that should read :
>>>of the /ai/ pronunciation of "either" <<<

<<<<<

Ah HA! Thank you. (Daybreak over Marblehead...)

Interesting, here, that I find myself using /ai/ more and more in "either" and
"neither" (especially in songs I write), which I used to scorn.

-- Mark


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 28 12:29:29 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:29:29 -0400
Subject: New Girl Network; Paper of Record
In-Reply-To: <29.6f24bbd.2687ef45@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.082929.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>      The cover story in NEW YORK magazine, 18 July 1977:
>
> _No News Is Bad News_
> _At the New York Times_
> Why Your Newspaper of Record Is Getting Bigger, Not Better.

"Newspaper of record" has a legal meaning slightly different from the
sense used when the New York Times is said to be a newspaper of record,
i.e., in legal usage it means a newspaper where official notices are
printed. In this sense it appears in a 1967 case on Lexis.

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From Dfcoye at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 28 13:00:22 2000
From: Dfcoye at AOL.COM (Dfcoye at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:00:22 EDT
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.090022.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/27/2000 9:35:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK writes:

<< }When I do something similar with my students (who are 99% New Jerseyans) I
 }ask them to chose someone from their own generation, parents generation, and
 }grandparents-- all native New Jerseyans.    Changes are evident in some
words
 }(the increasing use of 'try and' vs. 'try to',  of the /ai/ pronunciation of
 }either at the expense of /i:/ are particularly dramatic.
 }<<<<<
 }
 }Would you clarify that last one? I have a hard time accepting "try" as
 }homophonous with "tree".
 }
 }-- Mark A. Mandel
 }

 Perhaps that should read :
 >>>of the /ai/ pronunciation of "either" <<< >>


Thanks Aaron-- that's what I meant.

Dale Coye


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Wed Jun 28 13:27:10 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:27:10 -0400
Subject: Agatite
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.092710.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This was posted to ANS-L, the American Name Society list, by Dennis McClendon
(address below). Please reply to ans-l at listserv.binghamton.edu, not to me.

---------------------- Forwarded by Mark Mandel/Dragon Systems USA on 06/28/2000
09:24 AM ---------------------------

>Jane Messenger wrote:
>
>> I have had a gentleman request the definition/origin of the name "Agatite."
>> There is a road in Illinois and was a town in Texas named this.

No one seems to know the origin of the Chicago streetname "Agatite."

Don Hayner and Tom McNamee in their 1986 book _ Streetwise Chicago: A
History of Chicago Street Names,_ write "This street's name is a mystery.
'Agatite' apparently is not a word, and there seems to be no famous,
infamous, or obscure person by that name in Chicago history. It may be a
misspelling of 'apatite,' a calcium phosphate found in teeth and bones. Or,
it may be a layman's variation on the mineral name 'agate.'  One common
explanation, that agatite is a type of tree, appears to be false.

The preface goes even further:

"Nobody in Chicago, at least nobody we know, knows how Agatite Street got
its name. Heaven knows, we tried to find out.

"We began our search at City Hall, where the Department of Maps and Plats
maintains an index card file on street names. According to the index card
for Agatite Street, agatite is a type of tree, more commonly called the
'pea tree,' indigenous to the West Indies. . . the Chicago Historical
Society . . . card file . . . offered the same explanation, word for word.
. . A taxonomist [at the Morton Arboretum], after digging through several
authoritative volumes, assured us that agatite is in no way a type of tree.
'Sounds more like a rock to me,' he said.

"Good enough. We phoned the Department of Geology at the University of
Chicago. A geologist there, who himself had often wondered about the origin
of the street name Agatite, said, no, agatite is neither a rock or mineral,
although agate is.  Maybe, our geologist speculated, some non-scientitst in
naming the street had added the common Latin suffix 'ite' to agate. Or
maybe, he ventured further, that same layman had misspelled the word
_apatite_, a calcium phosphate found in teeth and bones."

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Dennis McClendon, Chicago CartoGraphics
dmcclendon at 21stcentury.net


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 28 14:43:39 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:43:39 -0700
Subject: That @ symbol
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.074339.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- dcoles <dcoles at HOME.COM> wrote:
> I learned as a kid to read "3 packages @ $1 = $3,"
> which was spoken as follows:
> "three packages at one dollar each equals three
> dollars."
> So the @ symbol included both "at" and "each" in its
> meaning - otherwise, it would have been spoken,
> "three packages at one dollar equals three dollars."
>
> My question is, is there such a thing as a 'phrasal'
> symbol? I've always just called @ the at/each thing.
> Also, to Jennifer Lyons - I'm with you on the
> "approximately" or "about" peeve!
> Cheers,
> Devon Coles
>
Recollection of seemingly inconsequencial events in my
remote past are rarely clear, but I believe I learned
the use of @ to mean "approximately" before I learned
it also could be used for "at".  As a youth, I deduced
from its usage that @ was an "a" inside a "c", an
abbreviation for "circa", which I understood to mean
"about" or "approximately".



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


From AGCOM.egregory at TAEXGW.TAMU.EDU  Wed Jun 28 15:26:40 2000
From: AGCOM.egregory at TAEXGW.TAMU.EDU (Elizabeth Gregory)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:26:40 -0500
Subject: Agatite
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.102640.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, in _The Sacred Harp_, the song book for Sacred Harp or shape note singing, there is a hymn entitled "New Agatite." The lyrics, attributed to Edward Perronet in 1779, are those of a hymn often called "All Hail the Pow'r of Jesus' Name" in other hymnals.

If this seems a promising line of inquiry, perhaps one of the e-mail lists shown on the fasola.org web site could help with origins of the name.

Elizabeth Gregory
Texas A&M University
e-gregory at tamu.edu


>>> Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM - 6/28/00 8:27 AM >>>
This was posted to ANS-L, the American Name Society list, by Dennis McClendon
(address below). Please reply to ans-l at listserv.binghamton.edu, not to me.

---------------------- Forwarded by Mark Mandel/Dragon Systems USA on 06/28/2000
09:24 AM ---------------------------

>Jane Messenger wrote:
>
>> I have had a gentleman request the definition/origin of the name "Agatite."
>> There is a road in Illinois and was a town in Texas named this.

No one seems to know the origin of the Chicago streetname "Agatite."

Don Hayner and Tom McNamee in their 1986 book _ Streetwise Chicago: A
History of Chicago Street Names,_ write "This street's name is a mystery.
'Agatite' apparently is not a word, and there seems to be no famous,
infamous, or obscure person by that name in Chicago history. It may be a
misspelling of 'apatite,' a calcium phosphate found in teeth and bones. Or,
it may be a layman's variation on the mineral name 'agate.'  One common
explanation, that agatite is a type of tree, appears to be false.

The preface goes even further:

"Nobody in Chicago, at least nobody we know, knows how Agatite Street got
its name. Heaven knows, we tried to find out.

"We began our search at City Hall, where the Department of Maps and Plats
maintains an index card file on street names. According to the index card
for Agatite Street, agatite is a type of tree, more commonly called the
'pea tree,' indigenous to the West Indies. . . the Chicago Historical
Society . . . card file . . . offered the same explanation, word for word.
. . A taxonomist [at the Morton Arboretum], after digging through several
authoritative volumes, assured us that agatite is in no way a type of tree.
'Sounds more like a rock to me,' he said.

"Good enough. We phoned the Department of Geology at the University of
Chicago. A geologist there, who himself had often wondered about the origin
of the street name Agatite, said, no, agatite is neither a rock or mineral,
although agate is.  Maybe, our geologist speculated, some non-scientitst in
naming the street had added the common Latin suffix 'ite' to agate. Or
maybe, he ventured further, that same layman had misspelled the word
_apatite_, a calcium phosphate found in teeth and bones."

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Dennis McClendon, Chicago CartoGraphics
dmcclendon at 21stcentury.net


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 28 15:50:31 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:50:31 -0700
Subject: Agatite
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.085031.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

elizabeth gregory writes:

 >FWIW, in _The Sacred Harp_, the song book for Sacred Harp or shape
 >note singing, there is a hymn entitled "New Agatite." The lyrics,
 >attributed to Edward Perron et in 1779, are those of a hymn often
 >called "All Hail the Pow'r of Jesus' Name" in other hymnals.

 >If this seems a promising line of inquiry, perhaps one of the e-mail
 >lists shown on the fasola.org web site could help with origins of the
 >name.

this will only take you back to the chicago street name.  the tune for
New Agatite (485 in the 1991 Sacred Harp) was written by chicago
shapenote singer ted johnson in 1990 and gets its name from the
street.  compare Wood Street (504), a tune written by chicago
shapenote singer judy hauff in 1986.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From jlyons at NETMARKETGROUP.COM  Wed Jun 28 16:24:48 2000
From: jlyons at NETMARKETGROUP.COM (Lyons, Jennifer M)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:24:48 -0400
Subject: That @ symbol
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.122448.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Interesting!  I only remember being taught that it was a merged way to write
"ad" (like the ampersand is for "et").  We learned circa as either a c. or a
~.  I grew up in Pittsburgh, and never saw anyone use @ to mean
"approximately"; here in Ohio, I have run across a few instances of that
usage.  (If it counts for anything, I was born in 1979.)

Jen

-----Original Message-----
From: James Smith [mailto:jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com]

> Also, to Jennifer Lyons - I'm with you on the
> "approximately" or "about" peeve!
> Cheers,
> Devon Coles
>
Recollection of seemingly inconsequencial events in my
remote past are rarely clear, but I believe I learned
the use of @ to mean "approximately" before I learned
it also could be used for "at".  As a youth, I deduced
from its usage that @ was an "a" inside a "c", an
abbreviation for "circa", which I understood to mean
"about" or "approximately".



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


From Abatefr at CS.COM  Wed Jun 28 17:02:02 2000
From: Abatefr at CS.COM (Frank Abate)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:02:02 EDT
Subject: whole nine yards
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.130202.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not to totally dismiss Fred's comment re phrase origin books, I would say
that "Picturesque Expressions" in its 2nd edition (Gale, about 1985) is a
good one-volume source for many origins of phrases and idioms in English.
The research is derivative, not original, which is to say that OED is given
as a source, as well as other works used.  It does give some of the folk
origins, too, but says as much when doing so.

It is organized by thematic category, with a cross-rerenced list of the
categories at the front, and an alphabetic index in back.  I don't know if
"whole nine yards" is in, as my copy is not at hand.  The book is probably
out of print, but is widely held by libraries.  I know of it because I worked
on it.

Frank Abate


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Wed Jun 28 18:35:38 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:35:38 -0500
Subject: See you later (_i.e._, ta-ta, farewell, auf wiedersehn, good
In-Reply-To: <a0.66ffaba.268af4ff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.133538.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        That "conversation" Barry found in the NEW YORK DISPATCH is
marvellous.

GAT


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Jun 28 20:06:34 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:06:34 -0600
Subject: whole nine yards
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.140634.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    I have treated  "the whole nine yards" in the following working paper:
Gerald Cohen: "_Whole Nine Yards_ --  Most Plausible Derivation Seems To Be
>From WWII fighter pilots' usage." _Comments on Etymology_, Nov. 1998, vol.
28, no. 2, pp.1-4.

   The _San Diego Union Tribune_, March 11, 1997, sec. E, pp.1,3 contains
an article entitled "Show Me the Phrases!" by staff writer Gil Griffin.
Griffin had interviewed Thomas Donahue, a San Diego State University
linguistics professor for the article, and one part particularly caught my
attention:
    '"The whole nine yards" has origins in World War II...It came from
World War II fighter pilots in the South Pacific," Donahue said, recalling
a letter he received about the phrase.
    "The pilots had .50 caliber machine gun ammunition belts that measured
27 feet.  If the pilots fired all their ammo at a target, they said they
let go the whole nine yards.
    "The saying remains, 50--plus years later," Donahue said, "because it's
still an easy way to  express totality."'

     Also, independently of this above-quoted item, I received a note from
one of my neighbors:
   'The machine guns of a North American P-51 Mustang were fed by
ammunition belts that were 27 feet long.  After a pilot emptied his guns on
a target, he would say that he "gave 'em the whole nine yards."'

     There are four other hypotheses advanced for the origin of "the whole
nine yards," but none of those four seems convincing.

------Gerald Cohen



gcohen at umr.edu


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Jun 28 20:40:05 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:40:05 -0400
Subject: That @ symbol
In-Reply-To: <B839FDBC812FD3118ECF00902786098902A71281@exchcloh.cloh.cuc.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.164005.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I learned that "@" means "at . . . apiece."  This was in a typing class that
I was forced to take because I didn't get industrial arts, so I didn't get
to make that tooled saddle that I wanted.  I therefore had no choice but to
become a writer and word mechanic, instead of the cowboy that I think I was
meant to be.  Sigh.

But back to the topic at hand, I've never heard of the "approximate" sense
of "@."  It's incorrect as far as I'm concerned, the result of a wrongheaded
notion that it's better to never ask anyone what something means.  I know
that sounds terribly prescriptivist, but I'm feeling a little testy today.
This wouldn't happen if I were out on the range.

BTW, how widespread is that wrongheaded "approximate" usage for "a"?  Jiminy
Cricket, that symbol really DOES need a name!  Whirlpool is good, so is
whorl.  But I think we need to refer to its usage.  How about at-thingy?
At-whirl?  At-stop?  At-ma?  Atem?  At'em?  At-point?  At-taché?  A-pool?
A-hole?  (The kids would love that one.)  At-twitter?  Ats-a-good-one!
Someone keep it going.

> From: "Lyons, Jennifer M" <jlyons at NETMARKETGROUP.COM>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:24:48 -0400
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: That @ symbol
>
> Interesting!  I only remember being taught that it was a merged way to write
> "ad" (like the ampersand is for "et").  We learned circa as either a c. or a
> ~.  I grew up in Pittsburgh, and never saw anyone use @ to mean
> "approximately"; here in Ohio, I have run across a few instances of that
> usage.  (If it counts for anything, I was born in 1979.)


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Jun 28 20:42:32 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:42:32 -0400
Subject: whole nine yards
In-Reply-To: <v03130301b58007c48180@[131.151.64.116]>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.164232.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This sounds really plausible, and I like it.  But has anyone had a WWII
pilot confirm it?  Some of those guys must still be around.

> From: Gerald Cohen <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:06:34 -0600
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: whole nine yards
>
> Also, independently of this above-quoted item, I received a note from
> one of my neighbors:
> 'The machine guns of a North American P-51 Mustang were fed by
> ammunition belts that were 27 feet long.  After a pilot emptied his guns on
> a target, he would say that he "gave 'em the whole nine yards."'


From vneufeldt at M-W.COM  Wed Jun 28 21:15:14 2000
From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:15:14 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <3953BB49.A2E2A4F@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.171514.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would consider 'bureau' and 'chest of drawers' synonymous; a dresser has a
mirror and is generally lower, according to the usage I grew up with (well,
we didn't use 'bureau' much, if at all, but I know the term).

Victoria
Merriam-Webster, Inc. P.O. Box 281
Springfield, MA 01102
Tel: 413-734-3134  ext 124
Fax: 413-827-7262

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of A. Vine
> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 3:32 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: need DARE pairs
>
[SNIP]
> As for bureau/dresser, I would add chest-of-drawers.
>
> Andrea
> --
> Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
> "Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
> --From "Angry Kid" by Aardman Animation
>


From bern61 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 28 21:23:10 2000
From: bern61 at YAHOO.COM (Bernie Theobald)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:23:10 -0700
Subject: Yahoo! Auto Response
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.142310.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fuck off, I am on vacation!!!

--------------------


Original Message:


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From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Thu Jun 29 00:36:40 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:36:40 -0500
Subject: That @ symbol
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.193640.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm happy that this discussion of @ arose and that a couple of people
have mentioned an association with "approximately."  I'd been thinking
for years that I had just dreamed that up at some point in childhood.
Until sometime in middle age -- probably when bitnet came into my life
and I became maynor at msstate, I had thought that @ meant "at about."  I
don't know where my thought on the subject came from originally, but
when I started catching on that it meant "at," I concluded that I had
somehow imagined the "about" part.
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From hstahlke at GW.BSU.EDU  Thu Jun 29 00:42:45 2000
From: hstahlke at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:42:45 -0500
Subject: whole nine yards
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.194245.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The story I read, the one I passed on to Arnold Zwicky, was essentially the same, but set in Britain.  Has anyone ever checked the length of those ammo belts?  Do we have here the common sorts of variants on a myth?  I look forward to reading your paper.

Herb Stahlke

<<< gcohen at UMR.EDU  6/28  2:54p >>>
    I have treated  "the whole nine yards" in the following working paper:
Gerald Cohen: "_Whole Nine Yards_ --  Most Plausible Derivation Seems To Be
>From WWII fighter pilots' usage." _Comments on Etymology_, Nov. 1998, vol.
28, no. 2, pp.1-4.

   The _San Diego Union Tribune_, March 11, 1997, sec. E, pp.1,3 contains
an article entitled "Show Me the Phrases!" by staff writer Gil Griffin.
Griffin had interviewed Thomas Donahue, a San Diego State University
linguistics professor for the article, and one part particularly caught my
attention:
    '"The whole nine yards" has origins in World War II...It came from
World War II fighter pilots in the South Pacific," Donahue said, recalling
a letter he received about the phrase.
    "The pilots had .50 caliber machine gun ammunition belts that measured
27 feet.  If the pilots fired all their ammo at a target, they said they
let go the whole nine yards.
    "The saying remains, 50--plus years later," Donahue said, "because it's
still an easy way to  express totality."'

     Also, independently of this above-quoted item, I received a note from
one of my neighbors:
   'The machine guns of a North American P-51 Mustang were fed by
ammunition belts that were 27 feet long.  After a pilot emptied his guns on
a target, he would say that he "gave 'em the whole nine yards."'

     There are four other hypotheses advanced for the origin of "the whole
nine yards," but none of those four seems convincing.

------Gerald Cohen



gcohen at umr.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 29 00:48:37 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:48:37 EDT
Subject: whole nine yards
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.204837.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I have done much research on "the whole nine yards," but have come up
empty.  I think I had looked through Tamony's papers a few years ago.
   I found the "nine yards of cloth" that's in the RHHDAS.
   There are several things that disturb me about the WWII origin.  The time
gap is a big one.  "Nine yards" is first cited in the mid-1960s.  I went to
the Military College in Carlysle, PA last year (if anyone remembers) to
research military slang lists.  "Nine yards" just wasn't there.
    I also didn't find the phrase in a football context in the 1960s,
although it would assume that in the 1970s.
    I didn't find it in Vietnam War slang.
    There are a few more possibilities I'll try.


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Thu Jun 29 01:54:23 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:54:23 -0400
Subject: English words for @
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.215423.0400.>

Another competitor on the "clitoris" thread.

I believe "the at symbol" would be the enduring name for it. I am reminded of "the number sign" [#] which at  one time was called "the octothorpe,"
by Ma Bell I think, but it apparently didn't take.
=============================

Laurence Horn wrote:

> At 11:43 AM -0400 6/27/00, Paul McFedries wrote:
> >I know I'm competing with the "clitoris" thread on this one, but I've heard
> >various English words used for the @ symbol, including the following:
> >
> >at
> >snail
> >strudel
> >vortex
> >whorl
> >
> >Does anybody know of any others? I tried searching the archives, but
> >received the following error:
> >
> >The requested method POST is not allowed for the URL
> >/excite/AT-adslsearch.cgi.
> >
> >Thanks a bunch.
> >
> >Paul
> >
> Here's Michael Quinion's posting on the subject;sorry for the formating. (Note the alleged popularity of "whirlpool" in this and the other summaries.) The main Linguist List summary on the topic can be found in the archives at the following two references:
>
> LINGUIST List: Vol-7-968. Tue Jul 2 1996. ISSN: 1068-4875. Lines: 1387
> Subject: 7.968, Sum: The @ symbol
>
> LINGUIST List: Vol-7-1177. Tue Aug 20 1996. ISSN: 1068-4875. Lines: 176
> Sum: The @ sign: addendum
>
> Quinion's World Wide Words column, 4/27/00:
>
> WHERE IT'S AT
> Names for a common symbol
>
> The @ symbol has been a central part of the Internet and its forerunners ever since it was chosen to be a
> separator in e-mail addresses by Ray Tomlinson in 1972. From puzzled comments which surface from
> time to time in various newsgroups, it appears the biggest problem for many Net users is deciding what to
> call it. This is perhaps unsurprising, as outside the narrow limits of bookkeeping, invoicing and related
> areas few people use it regularly. Even fewer ever have to find a name for it, so it is just noted mentally as
> something like "that letter a with the curly line round it".
>
> It use in business actually goes back to late medieval times. It was originally a contraction for the Latin
> word ad, meaning "to, toward, at" and was used in accounts or invoices to introduce the price of
> something ("3 yds of lace for my lady @ 1/4d a yard"). In cursive writing, the upright stroke of the 'd'
> curved over to the left and extended around the 'a'; eventually the lower part fused with the 'a' to form one
> symbol. Even after Latin ceased to be commonly understood, the symbol remained in use with the
> equivalent English sense of at. Because business employed it, it was put on typewriter keyboards from
> about 1880 onwards, though it is very noticeable that the designers of several of the early machines didn't
> think it important enough to include it (neither the Sholes keyboard of 1873 nor the early Caligraph one
> had it, giving preference to the ampersand instead), and was carried over to the standard computer character
> sets of EBCDIC and ASCII in the sixties. From there, it has spread out across the networked world,
> perforce even into language groups such as Arabic, Tamil or Japanese which do not use the Roman
> alphabet.
>
> A discussion on the LINGUIST discussion list about names for @ in various languages produced an
> enormous response, from which most of the facts which follow are drawn. Some have just transliterated
> the English name 'at' or 'commercial at' into the local language. What is interesting is that nearly all the
> languages cited have developed colloquial names for it which have food or animal references.
>
> In German, it is frequently called Klammeraffe, 'spider monkey' (you can imagine the monkey's tail),
> though this word also has a figurative sense very similar to that of the English 'leech' ("He grips like a
> leech"). Danish has grisehale, 'pig's tail' (as does Norwegian), but more commonly calls it snabel a, 'a
> (with an) elephant's trunk', as does Swedish, where it is the name recommended by the Swedish Language
> Board. Dutch has apestaart or apestaartje, '(little) monkey's tail' (the 'je' is a diminutive); this turns up
> in Friesian as apesturtsje and in Swedish and Finnish in the form apinanhanta. Finnish also has
> kissanhäntä, 'cat's tail' and, most wonderfully, miukumauku, 'the miaow sign'. In Hungarian it is kukac,
> 'worm; maggot', in Russian 'little dog', in Serbian majmun, 'monkey', with a similar term in Bulgarian.
> Both Spanish and Portuguese have arroba, which derives from a unit of weight. In Thai, the name
> transliterates as 'the wiggling worm-like character'. Czechs often call it zavinàc which is a rolled-up
> herring or rollmop; the most-used Hebrew term is strudel, from the famous Viennese rolled-up apple
> sweet. Another common Swedish name is kanelbulle, 'cinnamon bun', which is rolled up in a similar way.
>
> The most curious usage, because it seems to have spread furthest from its origins, whatever they are, is
> snail. The French have called it escargot for a long time (though more formal terms are arobase or a
> commercial), but the term is also common in Italian (chiocciola), and has recently appeared in Hebrew
> (shablul), Korean (dalphaengi) and Esperanto (heliko).
>
> In English the name of the sign seems to be most commonly given as at or, more fully, commercial at,
> which is the official name given to it in the international standard character sets. Other names include
> whirlpool (from its use in the joke computer language INTERCAL) and fetch (from FORTH), but these
> are much less common. A couple of the international names have come over into English: snail is fairly
> frequently used; more surprisingly, so is snabel from Danish.
>
> Even so, as far as English is concerned at is likely to remain the standard name for the symbol. But there
> is evidence that the sign itself is moving out from its Internet heartland to printed publications. Recently
> the British newspaper, the Guardian, began to advertise a bookselling service by post, whose title (not
> e-mail address) is "Books at The Guardian". Do I detect a trend?
>
> At least we shall have no problem finding a name for the symbol.
>
> References
> Beeching, Wilfred A Century of the Typewriter British Typewriter Museum Publishing, Bournemouth,
> England, 1990
> Chung, Karen S Linguist List, number 7.968, 2 July 1996. Available from
>
> http://www.emich.edu/~linguist/issues/html/7-968.html
> Hafner, Katie & Lyon, Matthew Where Wizards Stay Up Late: the Origins of the Internet Simon &
> Schuster, 1996


From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM  Thu Jun 29 02:53:27 2000
From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:53:27 -0400
Subject: whole nine yards
In-Reply-To: <s95a553c.082@gw.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.225327.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:42 PM 6/28/00, Herb Stahlke wrote:

>The story I read, the one I passed on to Arnold Zwicky, was essentially
>the same, but set in Britain.  Has anyone ever checked the length of those
>ammo belts?  Do we have here the common sorts of variants on a myth?  I
>look forward to reading your paper.


P-51 Mustangs (there were six variants made, the most prevalent being the
P-51D) had either 4 or 6 .50 caliber guns, and carried a total of,
respectively, 1260 or 1880 rounds.  Figuring maybe ten rounds per foot (the
.50 cal. shells I've seen are pretty big), that's 126/4 = ~31 feet (or
188/6 = ~31 feet) per gun.  In the ballpark, in other words.

But personally I doubt that explanation, if for no other reason than the
time gap.


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Thu Jun 29 02:56:39 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:56:39 -0400
Subject: English words for @
In-Reply-To: <395AAC4E.A68A14A4@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.225639.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Thomas Paikeday wrote:

> I believe "the at symbol" would be the enduring name for it.
> I am reminded of "the number sign" [#] which at
> one time was called "the octothorpe,"
> by Ma Bell I think, but it apparently didn't take.

My first phonetics teacher (and the person responsible for
getting me into lexicography), Richard Spears, always referred
to the # as an octothorpe in phonetics class. I don't know
if that was idiosyncratic, but I've always associated the use
of # in phonetics with the term octothorpe.


--- Steve K.


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Thu Jun 29 05:06:12 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:06:12 -0700
Subject: That @ symbol
In-Reply-To: <200006290036.TAA08188@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.220612.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I'm happy that this discussion of @ arose and that a couple of people
>have mentioned an association with "approximately."  I'd been thinking
>for years that I had just dreamed that up at some point in
>childhood.... I concluded that I had
>somehow imagined the "about" part.
>    --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)

Oh me too.  It's always a relief to realize you weren't imagining it.
I had a similar experience with the original "Fantasia."  My father
had taken me to see it when I was about 7 and it was already a rerun.
Years later I'd mention it to friends and no one had heard of it.
I'd say things like, "Remember when Mickey Mouse was the Sourcerer's
Apprentice?  Or the little dancing mushrooms in the Nutcracker Suite?
And they'd look at me like I was nuts.  Of course I may be nuts, but
at least I didn't imagine all of "Fantasia."

Rima


From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM.TW  Thu Jun 29 02:38:37 2000
From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM.TW (Russ McClay)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:38:37 +0800
Subject: English words for @
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.103837.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thomas Paikeday wrote:

> I believe "the at symbol" would be the enduring name for it. I am reminded of "the number sign" [#] which at  one time was called "the octothorpe,"
> by Ma Bell I think, but it apparently didn't take.

I've always called it "the at sign"; similar to the "dollar sign".

Russ


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Thu Jun 29 07:58:50 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:58:50 -0500
Subject: Sick as a parrot?
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.025850.0500.>

Michael Quinion's Web site, WORLD WIDE WORDS
<http://www.quinion.com/words/>, carries an article on "sick as a dog".
The article ends with this comment:

>>>
The modern sick as a parrot recorded from the 1970s - at one time much
overused by British sportsmen as the opposite of over the moon - refers
to a state of deep mental depression rather than physical illness; this
perhaps comes from instances of parrots contracting psittacosis and
passing it to their human owners.

-- from WORLD WIDE WORDS, copyright (c) Michael B Quinion 2000
>>>

Dear Michael Quinion:

"Sick as a parrot" could be a reference to the Monty Python sketch on
the dead parrot. Your suggested date (though a little broad) might be a
hint at confirmation. If Monty Python is the source, then I wouldn't be
surprised that someone described the condition as a state of deep mental
depression.

The phrase would be a reasonable parallel to the classic "We had to bury
him.  Dead, you know."  Its extended form would be something like

"This parrot's just sick.  Deeply depressed. He wants cheering up."

"No, he isn't depressed, he's dead.  You've nailed his feet to the
perch!"

Thank you for mentioning World Wide Words in your recent message to the
American Dialect Society mailing list.  It tempted me into a dive into
your Web site, and I didn't come up for an hour.  I'll be back: it's an
enjoyable experience.

Have fun on your vacation!

-- mike salovesh  <salovesh at niu.edu>   PEACE !!!


From HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU  Thu Jun 29 12:11:58 2000
From: HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:11:58 -0500
Subject: whole nine yards
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.071158.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The test of the British version, of course, is whether the term appears in British sources.  Has anyone searched there?

Herb

>>> Bapopik at AOL.COM 06/28/00 07:48PM >>>
   I have done much research on "the whole nine yards," but have come up
empty.  I think I had looked through Tamony's papers a few years ago.
   I found the "nine yards of cloth" that's in the RHHDAS.
   There are several things that disturb me about the WWII origin.  The time
gap is a big one.  "Nine yards" is first cited in the mid-1960s.  I went to
the Military College in Carlysle, PA last year (if anyone remembers) to
research military slang lists.  "Nine yards" just wasn't there.
    I also didn't find the phrase in a football context in the 1960s,
although it would assume that in the 1970s.
    I didn't find it in Vietnam War slang.
    There are a few more possibilities I'll try.


From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM.TW  Thu Jun 29 12:20:05 2000
From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM.TW (Russ McClay)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:20:05 +0800
Subject: whole nine yards
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.202005.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A few theories here:

http://plateaupress.com.au/wfw/nineyard.htm

Still, no authoritative confirmation of origin.

Russ McClay
Taipei


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 29 14:00:43 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:00:43 EDT
Subject: Applesauce
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.100043.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    The RHHDAS has "applesauce" from 1918, but without a hint of its origin.
    This is from THE GIRL FROM RECTOR'S (Doubleday, Page & Co., Garden CIty,
NY, 1927) by George Rector, pg. 133:

     _THAT APPLE-SAUCE JOKE_
(Pg. 134--ed.)
     There is an expression sweeping America to-day which I heard Corse
Payton use twenty-five years ago.  Chauffeurs (Pg. 135--ed.) toss it at
traffic policemen, traffic policemen catch it in mid-air and hurl it back,
bad boys about it at truant officers, and good little girls shrill it to
their fond parents.  Each granny tells it to grandpa and there isn't much
doubt that grandpa has mumbled it to the manicurist in the barber shop.  That
expression is "apple sauce."  You possibly have used it yourself without
knowing how it originated.  It started with Thatcher, Primrose, and West, who
had one of the greatest minstrel organizations ever assembled.  The
expression "apple sauce" means anything that is old, trite, and out-of-date.
This was the routine of the apple-sauce gag:

     THATCHER:  Mr. Interlocutor, a teacher has twelve pupils and only eleven
apples.
     WEST:  Yes, Mr. Tambo, a teacher has twelve pupils and only eleven
apples.
     THATCHER:  That's right.  Now she wants to give each pupil an equal
share of the apples without cutting the apples.  How does she do it?
     WEST:  Let me see.  A teacher has twelve pupils and only eleven apples.
SHe wants to give each pupil an equal share of the apples without applying a
knife to the fruit.  How does she do it?  I must confess my ignorance.  How
does she do it, Mr. Tambo?
     THATCHER:  She made apple sauce.

     Thatcher used to get a huge laugh from this joke.  Naturally, all the
other rival minstrels grabbed it, used (Pg. 136--ed.)  it, an finally hamered
it into an early grave by too much repetition.  Audiences refused to laugh at
it any more and it was discarded.  So any other joke which is old and no good
is also called apple sauce.  There is something about this expression which
is very satisfying.  When a motorcycle cop tells you that he is going to give
you a ticket, not knowing that you are the mayor's friend, you tell him,
"Apple sauce."  When he hands you the ticket, you tell him, "Apple sauce."
When you tell the judge you were going only two miles an hour, the judge
hands down the verdict of, "Apple sauce."  And when you fork over fifteen
dollars and bounce out of the court room, the little birdies in the trees
seem to be chirping it.  I have never seen anything, outside of a sneak
thief's skeleton key, which seemed to fit so many situations.
     In a previous chapter I spoke about the personnel of my restaurant--the
cooks, the head chefs, the waiters, and the captains.  There was one crew I
forgot to mention, and this outfit was the band of nighthawks operating the
fleet of scooped-out and sea-going hacks.  The scooped-out hack was the open
Victoria, while the sea-going vehicle was the closed hack, more like a
brougham.  Like Robin Hood's band, they were a merry bunch of outlaws who
trimmed the rich--but failed to donate to the poor.  There were fifteen or
twenty outside of Rector's every night, rain or shine.  Their scale of prices
depended on their victim's condition of sobriety and knowledge of geography.
Their tactics originated the (Pg. 137--ed.) famous expression "run-around."
A man who is giving you the run-around is trying to stall you off by using
evasive tactics.

     OED has "run-around" from 1915.
     That applesauce joke was the "Why did the chicken cross the road?" joke
of its time.  The applesauce joke would often be used involving horses,
because everyone knew that horses loved apples.  Some track writer on an
entertainment newspaper would soon call the New York City horse
tracks--whatever.
     Also from THE GIRL FROM RECTOR'S:

Pg. 15:  His vest buttons also were precious stones, and I think that when
remonstrated with for his excessive display of gems, Mr. ("Diamond Jim"--ed.)
Brady remarked, "Them as has 'em wears 'em."  (An early "If you've got it,
flaunt it"?--ed.)

Pg. 68:  In this case, "tub worker" did not mean bending over the week's wash
in the back of a Chinese laundry.  This group of tourists worked the tubs.
The tubs were ocean liners.  Their polish  was as false as the sheen on an
oiled apple.  It could be dropped readily, and in passing their tables I
often overheard such sinister words as "the (Pg. 69--ed.) mouthpiece," "the
big store," "the mob," "the iron theatre," and "the rap."
     This may mean nothing to you unless I explain that the mouthpiece was a
lawyer, the big store was the district attorney's office, the mob was a gang
of crooks, the iron theatre was a jail, and the rap was either an accusation
or a term in jail.  They were not nice lads, but there was no way of
excluding them provided they behaved themselves.  And they always acted very
well in Rector's.

Pg. 73:  ...there is an old saying in New York that the doctors support Wall
Street and the actors support the race track.

Pg. 86:  He would eat his salad with some dandy Camembert cheese, running
south.  By "running south" we meant the cheese was so soft that it had to be
eaten with a spoon instead of a knife.

Pg. 121:  We did not serve many beef sirloins, although Rector's was
responsible for that very popular and well-known dish, the steak a la minute.
 After waiting an hour or so for this order to be served, you might naturally
wonder how it ever got its maiden (Pg. 122--ed.) name of a la minute.  It was
the swiftest steak we served, because it was sliced thin as a wafer and
cooked very quickly.  If timed by reliable handicappers, I think the best we
could have claimed for it was steak a la fifteen minutes.
     Some guests pronounced minute with an accent on the last syllable, which
made it mean very small or even infinitesimal.  These guests were closer to
the truth.  But I refuse to validate that old story about the guest who asked
his waiter to point out his steak and was informed that it was hiding under a
pea.  We were never fortunate enough to get peas of that size.


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 29 14:30:48 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:30:48 -0700
Subject: Applesauce
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.073048.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
....
>  The
> expression "apple sauce" means anything that is old,
> trite, and out-of-date.
> This was the routine of the apple-sauce gag:
>
>      THATCHER:  Mr. Interlocutor, a teacher has
> twelve pupils and only eleven
> apples.
>      WEST:  Yes, Mr. Tambo, a teacher has twelve
> pupils and only eleven
> apples.
>      THATCHER:  That's right.  Now she wants to give
> each pupil an equal
> share of the apples without cutting the apples.  How
> does she do it?
>      WEST:  Let me see.  A teacher has twelve pupils
> and only eleven apples.
> SHe wants to give each pupil an equal share of the
> apples without applying a
> knife to the fruit.  How does she do it?  I must
> confess my ignorance.  How
> does she do it, Mr. Tambo?
>      THATCHER:  She made apple sauce.
>
>      Thatcher used to get a huge laugh from this
> joke.  Naturally, all the
> other rival minstrels grabbed it, used (Pg.
> 136--ed.)  it, an finally hamered
> it into an early grave by too much repetition.

Just my opinion, but if audiences gave a huge laugh to
this use of "applesauce", the word must have already
had a widely known second meaning: the sketch itself
doesn't seem very funny to me unless "applesauce"
already had a meaning of "nonesense" or "horse
feathers" or such.  But then, maybe I'm just jaded to
something that was very fresh and entertaining a
century ago.

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Thu Jun 29 16:08:35 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:08:35 -0400
Subject: octothorpe
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.120835.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Steve K." <stevek at SHORE.NET> writes:

>>>>>
On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Thomas Paikeday wrote:

> I believe "the at symbol" would be the enduring name for it.
> I am reminded of "the number sign" [#] which at
> one time was called "the octothorpe,"
> by Ma Bell I think, but it apparently didn't take.

My first phonetics teacher (and the person responsible for
getting me into lexicography), Richard Spears, always referred
to the # as an octothorpe in phonetics class. I don't know
if that was idiosyncratic, but I've always associated the use
of # in phonetics with the term octothorpe.
<<<<<

I have read that the name was given by a telephone company (Bell, at the time)
engineer who needed a name for the damn thing as a glyph -- a character, apart
from any significance that might be attached to it -- and combined "octo-" for
the number of "arms" it has with "Thorpe", his own surname. But I can't give a
cite.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From ookpik at MINDSPRING.COM  Thu Jun 29 16:44:31 2000
From: ookpik at MINDSPRING.COM (J. Katherine Rossner)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:44:31 -0400
Subject: octothorpe
In-Reply-To: <8525690D.00589E0C.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.124431.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:08 PM 6/29/00 -0400, Mark Mandel wrote:

>I have read that the name was given by a telephone company (Bell, at the time)
>engineer who needed a name for the damn thing as a glyph -- a character, apart
>from any significance that might be attached to it -- and combined "octo-" for
>the number of "arms" it has with "Thorpe", his own surname. But I can't give a
>cite.

I've read (possibly in William Safire's column?) that the "thorpe" part
refers not to a surname but to the "fields" into which the octothorpe is
divided.  Though that doesn't make sense, unless the central square is
omitted...

Katherine
--
Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche is chaunge
Withinne a thousand yere, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem, and yit they spake hem so.
        - Chaucer, "Troilus and Criseyde"


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Thu Jun 29 18:45:18 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:45:18 -0500
Subject: octothorpe
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000629124309.0099e6f0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.134518.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Around here, the # is called the "Pound key", which makes no sense to
me, since I had to be trained not to look for the swung L with a
stroke through the ascender -- in short, the symbol for English
currency.  Personally, I have been calling it the tictactoe sign,
being ignorant of an official name.

GAT


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Thu Jun 29 18:55:26 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:55:26 -0500
Subject: Some of my best friends are Jews
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000629124309.0099e6f0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.135526.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On behalf of a friend on the faculty here:

When did the expression "some of my best friend are jews" come to be
offered as the standard marker of a speaker who was at least
marginally prejudiced.  (Or, the parallel "Some of my best friends
are colored.")  Robert Gessner, a mentor of hers 60+ years ago,
published a book with this title in 1936.  Given that its subject is
anti-semitism in Europe of the time, I suppose that the title was
taken ironically, that the expression was already recognized as
usually leading to a "but . . . ."  She'd like confirmation.

GAT


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Jun 29 18:05:09 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:05:09 -0700
Subject: octothorpe
In-Reply-To: <147DD5A058C@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.110509.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Didn't anybody but me ever call it the "number sign" (as in #1, #5, #57,
etc.)?

Peter Mc.

--On Thu, Jun 29, 2000 1:45 PM -0500 GEORGE THOMPSON
<thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU> wrote:

> Around here, the # is called the "Pound key", which makes no sense to
> me, since I had to be trained not to look for the swung L with a
> stroke through the ascender -- in short, the symbol for English
> currency.  Personally, I have been calling it the tictactoe sign,
> being ignorant of an official name.
>
> GAT



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Jun 29 18:09:50 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:09:50 -0700
Subject: octothorpe
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.110950.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes.  I do.  And FWIW, the International Organization for Standardization (ISO)
calls it NUMBER SIGN.  Alternate names are: pound sign, hash, crosshatch,
octothorpe.  ISO calls @ "COMMERCIAL AT" with no alternate names.


"Peter A. McGraw" wrote:
>
> Didn't anybody but me ever call it the "number sign" (as in #1, #5, #57,
> etc.)?
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> --On Thu, Jun 29, 2000 1:45 PM -0500 GEORGE THOMPSON
> <thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU> wrote:
>
> > Around here, the # is called the "Pound key", which makes no sense to
> > me, since I had to be trained not to look for the swung L with a
> > stroke through the ascender -- in short, the symbol for English
> > currency.  Personally, I have been calling it the tictactoe sign,
> > being ignorant of an official name.
> >
> > GAT
>
> ****************************************************************************
>                                Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 29 18:23:22 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:23:22 -0400
Subject: Missing books on drinks
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.142322.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DRINK BOOKS

Naber, Alfs and Brune
CATALOGUE AND BARTENDERS' GUIDE.  HOW TO MIX DRINKS.
Schmidt Label & Lith. Co., San Francisco, 1884
  Only Cal-Berkeley has this, both the book and a microfilm of it (according to OCLC).  I requested inter-library loan.  Does this have Martini???

McDonough, Patrick
McDONOUGH'S BAR-KEEPER'S GUIDE, AND GENTLEMEN'S SIDEBOARD COMPANION
Post-Express Print, Rochester, NY, 1883
   Missing from the LOC!  Where else is it?

GREAT HEADS AND HOW TO CURE THEM
n.p., 1883
   Missing from the LOC!

Winter, George
HOW TO MIX DRINKS.  BAR KEEPERS' HANDBOOK.  WITH LATE AMENDMENTS TO THE EXCISE LAWS.
New York, 1884
   Missing from the LOC!

Barnes, ALbert
THE COMPLETE BARTENDER
Crawford & CO., Philadelphia, 1884
   Missing from the LOC!

   I'll get to my missing Mexican cookbooks later.


From funex79 at SLONET.ORG  Thu Jun 29 18:52:28 2000
From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:52:28 -0700
Subject: Some of my best friends are Jews
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.115228.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: "GEORGE THOMPSON" <thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: Some of my best friends are Jews


> On behalf of a friend on the faculty here:
>
> When did the expression "some of my best friend are jews" come to be
> offered as the standard marker of a speaker who was at least
> marginally prejudiced.  (Or, the parallel "Some of my best friends
> are colored.")  Robert Gessner, a mentor of hers 60+ years ago,
> published a book with this title in 1936.  Given that its subject is
> anti-semitism in Europe of the time, I suppose that the title was
> taken ironically, that the expression was already recognized as
> usually leading to a "but . . . ."  She'd like confirmation.
>
> GAT
>


From funex79 at SLONET.ORG  Thu Jun 29 18:53:37 2000
From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:53:37 -0700
Subject: Some of my best friends are Jews
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.115337.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

She might get information on that from the Anti-defamation League of B'nai
Brith.
----- Original Message -----
From: "GEORGE THOMPSON" <thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: Some of my best friends are Jews


> On behalf of a friend on the faculty here:
>
> When did the expression "some of my best friend are jews" come to be
> offered as the standard marker of a speaker who was at least
> marginally prejudiced.  (Or, the parallel "Some of my best friends
> are colored.")  Robert Gessner, a mentor of hers 60+ years ago,
> published a book with this title in 1936.  Given that its subject is
> anti-semitism in Europe of the time, I suppose that the title was
> taken ironically, that the expression was already recognized as
> usually leading to a "but . . . ."  She'd like confirmation.
>
> GAT
>


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Thu Jun 29 19:02:53 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:02:53 -0400
Subject: octothorpe
In-Reply-To: <8525690D.00589E0C.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.150253.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:

> I have read that the name was given by a telephone company (Bell, at the time)
> engineer who needed a name for the damn thing as a glyph -- a character, apart
> from any significance that might be attached to it -- and combined "octo-" for
> the number of "arms" it has with "Thorpe", his own surname. But I can't give a
> cite.
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel

Indeed, one James Edward Oglethorpe, per our etymologist's research.

The octo comes by way of octal, an eight-point pin used in electronic
connections (due to the eight points of the symbol).

--- Steve K.


From vneufeldt at M-W.COM  Thu Jun 29 19:06:07 2000
From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:06:07 -0400
Subject: octothorpe
In-Reply-To: <395B90EE.C45FFD71@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.150607.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've noticed that "number sign" is what you hear in voicemail instructions
("press . . . followed by the number sign")  in Canada -- but I don't know
if that is true across the country.  Which makes more sense to me too than
"pound sign", since it is much more commonly used as a number sign.  In
fact, its use as a sign for pound (meaning weight, not pound Sterling) must
be pretty well obsolete -- at least I can't recall seeing it, except in a
historical context.

Victoria


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of A. Vine
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 2:10 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: octothorpe
>
>
> Yes.  I do.  And FWIW, the International Organization for
> Standardization (ISO)
> calls it NUMBER SIGN.  Alternate names are: pound sign, hash, crosshatch,
> octothorpe.  ISO calls @ "COMMERCIAL AT" with no alternate names.
>
>
> "Peter A. McGraw" wrote:
> >
> > Didn't anybody but me ever call it the "number sign" (as in #1, #5, #57,
> > etc.)?


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Thu Jun 29 19:20:14 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:20:14 -0400
Subject: octothorpe
In-Reply-To: <000001bfe1fd$14806ec0$282b62ce@vneufeldt.m-w.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.152014.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Victoria Neufeldt wrote:

> I've noticed that "number sign" is what you hear in voicemail instructions
> ("press . . . followed by the number sign")  in Canada -- but I don't know
> if that is true across the country.  Which makes more sense to me too than
> "pound sign", since it is much more commonly used as a number sign.  In
> fact, its use as a sign for pound (meaning weight, not pound Sterling) must
> be pretty well obsolete -- at least I can't recall seeing it, except in a
> historical context.

I've seen it in one place only -- on boxes of nails. Nails can be
classified by their weight (per 100, I believe), so you'll see 12 # nails
(or what have you) on the box, in addition to their length. I thought that
was pretty cool the first time I saw that. Check it out the next time
you're in a hardware store; I haven't bought nails in quite a while.


--- Steve K.


From nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 29 20:48:12 2000
From: nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET (Nancy Elliott)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:48:12 -0700
Subject: octothorpe
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0006291516580.9750-100000@shell3.shore.net>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.134812.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Another name for #

I call it the "sharp sign."


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Jun 29 21:49:15 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:49:15 -0700
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
In-Reply-To: <395796B6.7A898E7B@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.144915.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was somewhat surprised at Andrea's posting.  To my knowledge, Oregon is
the only place in the U.S. where this nut is grown, at least commercially,
and to my knowledge it is the only part of the country where it's called a
"filbert" instead of a "hazelnut."

Trying to confirm this, I checked DARE and to my surprise found neither
word.

You can find canned hazelnuts in Oregon stores (even if they were grown in
Oregon), but you'll look in vain for a grower who calls his spread a
"hazelnut orchard"--or at least you'd have looked in vain for such a person
when I was growing up on an Oregon filbert farm.

Just today I ran across a newspaper story about an organization called the
Hazelnut Marketing Board, based in Portland.  Nothing strange about that if
they are trying to market the product nationally, but what was strange was
that the article, from the local paper in Wilsonville, the nearest town to
our family filbert farm, referred to a "local hazelnut grower."  I wonder
if the newspaper writer is an ignorant newcomer.  It's hard to imaging that
the local usage could be changing--it would still seem bizarre for me to
call the nut anything but a filbert when talking to another Oregonian, at
least when referring to the nut when it's still on the tree or on the
ground or being picked.

Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of Oregon?

Peter Mc.


--On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 10:45 AM -0700 Andrea Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> wrote:

> Hmm, how about hazelnuts/filberts?
>
> Greg Pulliam wrote:
>>
>> How about garbanzos/chickpeas?
>> --



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 29 22:31:02 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:31:02 -0700
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.153102.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:
> I was somewhat surprised at Andrea's posting.  To my
> knowledge, Oregon is
> the only place in the U.S. where this nut is grown,
> at least commercially,
> and to my knowledge it is the only part of the
> country where it's called a
> "filbert" instead of a "hazelnut."
>
> Trying to confirm this, I checked DARE and to my
> surprise found neither
> word.
>
> You can find canned hazelnuts in Oregon stores (even
> if they were grown in
> Oregon), but you'll look in vain for a grower who
> calls his spread a
> "hazelnut orchard"--or at least you'd have looked in
> vain for such a person
> when I was growing up on an Oregon filbert farm.
>
> Just today I ran across a newspaper story about an
> organization called the
> Hazelnut Marketing Board, based in Portland.
> Nothing strange about that if
> they are trying to market the product nationally,
> but what was strange was
> that the article, from the local paper in
> Wilsonville, the nearest town to
> our family filbert farm, referred to a "local
> hazelnut grower."  I wonder
> if the newspaper writer is an ignorant newcomer.
> It's hard to imaging that
> the local usage could be changing--it would still
> seem bizarre for me to
> call the nut anything but a filbert when talking to
> another Oregonian, at
> least when referring to the nut when it's still on
> the tree or on the
> ground or being picked.
>
> Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of
> Oregon?
>
> Peter Mc.

My mother, born and raised in Utah, called them
filberts.  I call them hazelnuts: can't explain why
filbert didn't stick to me.



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 29 22:44:06 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:44:06 EDT
Subject: octothorpe
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.184406.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/29/2000 3:49:52 PM, nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET writes:

<<  Another name for #

I call it the "sharp sign." >>

me too--I learned "sharp sign" in music class in 2nd grade, and i learned
"pound sign" in algebra in junior high. But octothope?  That is  new today to
me.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Jun 29 22:35:25 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:35:25 -0700
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.153525.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Peter A. McGraw" wrote:
>
> Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of Oregon?

Well, I'm pretty sure my mother or someone else in Texas used "filbert", because
I didn't really know anyone from Oregon until college.


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Thu Jun 29 22:49:31 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:49:31 -0400
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
In-Reply-To: <395BCF2D.5EEF1D7@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.184931.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Peter A. McGraw" wrote:
>
> Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of Oregon?

I knew filbert as a term in s.e. Texas in the 40s-50s.

Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 29 23:31:59 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:31:59 EDT
Subject: Menu collection stuff
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.193159.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Some stuff from the NYPL's menu collection.

5 November 1881--Delmonico's has "Ragout de terrapin a la Newberg."

13 April 1882--Boston's Parker House served "French Fried Potatoes."

30 November 1905--"New England Chowder" (clam?) is on an unidentified menu.

18 September 1907--The "Waldorf-Astoria Bank of Gastronomy" served "Peches,
Melba."

2 December 1910--R. H. Macy advertised "one of the largest restaurants in the
world--seating capacity 2,500."  The menu included "Clam Chowder, Manhattan,"
"Macy club" (sandwich), "Peach Melba," and "'Hell Fire' Potatoes."

2 December 1910--Memorial Hall of Harvard University served "Clam Chowder,
Manhattan."

9 December 1910--Fifth Avenue Restaurant (23-24 Streets) served "Minced
chicken a la King," "Peaches, Melba," and "Spaghetti a la Caruso."  "Try a
Fifth Avenue cocktail."

26 November 1924--Crescent Athletic Club (Bay Ridge, Brooklyn) served
"Lobster Thermidore."

24 April 1926--Hotel Woodstock (43rd & Broadway) served "Steak Minute."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
EGGS IS EGGS

    The 2 December 1910 menu of the Hotel Grunewald in New Orleans contained
this "special egg bill" (the details of each egg dish were here, but I didn't
copy them all down):

POACHED
Aigre doux, Arlequin, Benedict, Duchesse, Gounod, Matelote, Sicilienne,
Indienne, Grand Duc, Sans Gene, Viennoise, Dumas, Victorian Sardou
SCRAMBLED
Bordelaise, Orleans, Comtesse Uruska, Dreppoise, Dumas, Princesse
SHIRRED
Creole, De Lesseps, Chasseur, Grunewald, Montagnarde, Opera Turbigo, Maison
d'Or, Lorraine, Maximillian, Meyerbeer, Mirabeau, Montmorency
OMELETS
Bayonnaise, Charcutiere, Espagnole, Flamonde, Escarlate, Hongroise, Maitre
d'Hotel, Francaise, Printaniere, Bonne Femme, Lorenzo, Mexicaine, Agnes
Sorrel, Archduc, Clamart, Grand'mere, Massena, Princesse, Parmentier,
Provencale, Dumas, Creole
MISCELLANEOUS
Berlioz, Tripe, Bayonnaise, Du Beurre Noir, Florentine, A la Reine,
Perigourdine, St. Denis, Riverside, Venitienne, Careme


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Jun 30 00:59:58 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:59:58 -0700
Subject: Any of you *not* know another language?
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.175958.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To the esteemed linguists and language experts on this list:

Are there any of you who do *not* know a language other than English?

Yet another snooty "my world is the only world" posting on another list, in case
you were wondering.  But I'm also curious.

Thanks,
Andrea

P.S.  Is anyone interested in a compilation of the responses to writing accents
in English?
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Kid" by Aardman Animation


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Fri Jun 30 01:14:57 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:14:57 -0700
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
In-Reply-To: <1455285.3171278955@dhcp-218-202-137.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.181457.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of Oregon?

I knew them as filberts in New York - way before I knew them as
hazelnuts.  My mother grew up in NY, my father on the east coast and
Chicago.

Rima


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Jun 30 01:18:03 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:18:03 -0400
Subject: Any of you *not* know another language?
In-Reply-To: <395BF10E.BF7A06BC@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.211803.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, A. Vine wrote:

>>Are there any of you who do *not* know a language other than English?
Yet another snooty "my world is the only world" posting on another list,
in case you were wondering.  But I'm also curious.<<<

I don't understand. Are you claiming to be posting a snooty MWITOW item?
It doesn't sound like you ...

Bethany


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Fri Jun 30 01:37:08 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:37:08 -0700
Subject: Any of you *not* know another language?
In-Reply-To: <395BF10E.BF7A06BC@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.183708.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As a professional translator, it would look very bad on my resume to not
know at least one language besides my mother tongue.

I am always interested in summaries of threads.

Benjamin Barrett
benjamin at btranslations.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On
>Behalf Of A. Vine
>
>To the esteemed linguists and language experts on this list:
>
>Are there any of you who do *not* know a language other than English?
>
>P.S.  Is anyone interested in a compilation of the responses to
>writing accents in English?


From krahnke at LAMAR.ACNS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Fri Jun 30 02:34:02 2000
From: krahnke at LAMAR.ACNS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Karl Krahnke)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:34:02 -0600
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.203402.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I never knew what they were, but my mother always referred to filberts.  I don't
remember hearing hazelnut at all.  My mother was born and raised in SE Michigan
in the early part of the 20th century.

Karl Krahnke
Colorado State University



"Peter A. McGraw" wrote:

> I was somewhat surprised at Andrea's posting.  To my knowledge, Oregon is
> the only place in the U.S. where this nut is grown, at least commercially,
> and to my knowledge it is the only part of the country where it's called a
> "filbert" instead of a "hazelnut."
>
> Trying to confirm this, I checked DARE and to my surprise found neither
> word.
>
> You can find canned hazelnuts in Oregon stores (even if they were grown in
> Oregon), but you'll look in vain for a grower who calls his spread a
> "hazelnut orchard"--or at least you'd have looked in vain for such a person
> when I was growing up on an Oregon filbert farm.
>
> Just today I ran across a newspaper story about an organization called the
> Hazelnut Marketing Board, based in Portland.  Nothing strange about that if
> they are trying to market the product nationally, but what was strange was
> that the article, from the local paper in Wilsonville, the nearest town to
> our family filbert farm, referred to a "local hazelnut grower."  I wonder
> if the newspaper writer is an ignorant newcomer.  It's hard to imaging that
> the local usage could be changing--it would still seem bizarre for me to
> call the nut anything but a filbert when talking to another Oregonian, at
> least when referring to the nut when it's still on the tree or on the
> ground or being picked.
>
> Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of Oregon?
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> --On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 10:45 AM -0700 Andrea Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> wrote:
>
> > Hmm, how about hazelnuts/filberts?
> >
> > Greg Pulliam wrote:
> >>
> >> How about garbanzos/chickpeas?
> >> --
>
> ****************************************************************************
>                                Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From hstahlke at GW.BSU.EDU  Fri Jun 30 03:08:44 2000
From: hstahlke at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:08:44 -0500
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.220844.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My 94-year-old mother, who grew up in Detroit and St. Louis, calls them filberts.  I remember calling them filberts as a child in Michigan, but sometime since I changed to hazelnuts.

Herb Stahlke

<<< dumasb at UTK.EDU  6/29  6:03p >>>
"Peter A. McGraw" wrote:
>
> Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of Oregon?

I knew filbert as a term in s.e. Texas in the 40s-50s.

Bethany


From nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 30 04:32:30 2000
From: nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET (Nancy Elliott)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:32:30 -0700
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
In-Reply-To: <s95bc8f4.008@gw.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.213230.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I heard people in Kansas say filberts (and filiberts) in the 1970s.

Nancy Elliott
Southern Oregon University

> From: Herb Stahlke <hstahlke at GW.BSU.EDU>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:08:44 -0500
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: hazelnuts/filberts
>
> My 94-year-old mother, who grew up in Detroit and St. Louis, calls them
> filberts.  I remember calling them filberts as a child in Michigan, but
> sometime since I changed to hazelnuts.
>
> Herb Stahlke
>
> <<< dumasb at UTK.EDU  6/29  6:03p >>>
> "Peter A. McGraw" wrote:
>>
>> Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of Oregon?
>
> I knew filbert as a term in s.e. Texas in the 40s-50s.
>
> Bethany
>
>


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Fri Jun 30 04:53:14 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:53:14 -0500
Subject: Any of you *not* know another language?
In-Reply-To: <395BF10E.BF7A06BC@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.235314.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I took Spanish for five years between high school, college, and grad
school, including History of the Spanish Language and Structure of
Modern Spanish.  But do I *know* Spanish?  Probably not.  I know a
lot about it, but I can't understand Spanish speakers and I can't
produce a lick of it myself.

Does this mean I lose my -linguist- credentials?




>To the esteemed linguists and language experts on this list:
>
>Are there any of you who do *not* know a language other than English?
>
>Yet another snooty "my world is the only world" posting on another
>list, in case
>you were wondering.  But I'm also curious.
>
>Thanks,
>Andrea
>
>P.S.  Is anyone interested in a compilation of the responses to
>writing accents
>in English?
>--
>Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
>"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
>--From "Angry Kid" by Aardman Animation

--
-
Greg

greg at pulliam.org
http://www.pulliam.org


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Fri Jun 30 06:39:44 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 02:39:44 -0400
Subject: Query: Illustrations in Airplane Magazine
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.023944.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm off-list folks, but this one is derned interesting. Please forward any answers
to the original sender, although you may want to carbon-copy the list.



Mr. Barrett,
    My name is Eunice Buchanan.  You may think this request is a bit odd.
However, I recently was a passenger on a USAir Flight.  On board, I had the
pleasure of viewing an article regarding American Dialect Society.
Unfortunately, I cannot recall the name of the magazine.  The article
consisted of how certain words came into existence and the years they were
officially entered into our vocabulary.  I enjoyed the article, however, I
was somewhat disappointed.  Not in the article itself, what caught my
attention of the article was the cartoon drawings illustrating some commons
phrases and quotes used in American dialect.  For example, one drawing was a
man hitting his head against a brick wall..."hard head"; a cat in a tree with
a dog barking..."barking up the wrong tree".  Many other drawings were
represented, some of which I could not figure out.  This brings me to my
problem.  I am having a fit trying to figure out the phrases for the
remaining drawings, the answers were not given anywhere in the magazine.  If
you are familiar with this article, or have any suggestions, could you please
forward the information to me via email.  Once again, thank you for
entertaining this odd request.

Eunice Buchanan
www.icicle0729 at aol.com


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Fri Jun 30 08:46:54 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 03:46:54 -0500
Subject: Applesauce
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.034654.0500.>

Barry cites the following from THE GIRL FROM RECTOR'S (Doubleday, Page &
Co., Garden CIty, NY, 1927) by George Rector:

> Pg. 68:  In this case, "tub worker" did not mean bending over the week's wash in the back of a Chinese laundry.  This group of tourists worked the tubs. The tubs were ocean liners.  Their polish  was as false as the sheen on an oiled apple.  It could be dropped readily, and in passing their tables I often overheard such sinister words as "the mouthpiece," "the big store," "the mob," "the iron theatre," and "the rap."
>
>      This may mean nothing to you unless I explain that the mouthpiece was a lawyer, the big store was the district attorney's office, the mob was a gang of crooks, the iron theatre was a jail, and the rap was either an accusation or a term in jail.  They were not nice lads, but there was no way of excluding them provided they behaved themselves.  And they always acted very well in Rector's.
>

OK, that's a legitimate cite -- but wrong, nonetheless.

"The big store" was a term of art among con men, but it did NOT mean
"the D.A.'s office". My published authority is David Maurer, in his
__The Big Con__. In this case, I can claim unpublished verification
direct from my own interviews.

As it happens, I used to hang out in a bar a few oldtime con men used
for a home base when they were in Chicago. At various times, one or
another of them would try to rope me into some kind of short con.  I
would turn off their approaches with phrases I had learned from con men
and carnies when I was a kid.  They finally accepted me into their
conversations when I mentioned my father's Depression-era tire store. It
was across Western Avenue from Chicago's old Riverview Park, and they
remembered the place well. The game concessions at Riverview were all
run by carnies who were taking a rest from the rigors of road travel. To
keep their cars running, they would buy used tires from my father, who
always gave them good deals because they provided a steady source of
customers.

Concession games at Riverview, and at traveling carnivals, were all
rigged. Running those games was a way of breaking into the world of con
men.  Even the game boys who ran the tents in the afternoons, when
business was slow, quickly learned how to size up a mark and fleece him
for enough to make a difference but not so much as to trigger a
complaint or a call for the cops.  Running a game tent  was a good deal
for a con man who had to lay low after a good score.
Several of the con men at my old hangout had worked at Riverview during
the Depression. A couple of them even remembered me, back when I was six
or seven.

When dad took me to his store for a visit, he'd take me across the
street and let me wander all over Riverview. The guys at the game tents
never let me use my own money to pay for a game. They'd slip me some
change, and I would "spend" it all on the game whose operator gave me
the money.  Then they'd let me win -- and give me the big prizes, not
the flash.  (I knew I was supposed to get those prizes back to the guys
who gave them to me, without being obvious about it.) They used my wins
as bait for their victims.  I couldn't have told you what a "shill" was,
back then, but I played the role without understanding the implications.

When the con men at my favorite bar loosened up while I was around, they
would tell each other -- and me -- stories about some of their old
scores, and about some of the great con men of the past.  That's how I
learned about "the big store": a false-front operation set up for the
purpose of separating a wealthy victim from a lot of cash.

One form of the big store would be set up to look like a bookie parlor.
The mark would meet someone claiming to be a clerk in that bookie joint
who was mad at his boss.  The supposed disgruntled employee would say
that he saw a chance to pay back his boss by hitting him with an
unbeatable bet.  Then he would feed the mark a story about his friend, a
Western Union employee. The mark would then be set up to meet the
supposed Western Union guy.  The second con man would propose to pass
the telegaphed results of a race to the mark, but delay delivery of
those results to the bookies. The mark would then be able to make a bet
that couldn't lose.  The con men would let the mark win a series of
these sure bets to convince him that the fix was in. Then they'd send
him to fetch a big chunk of his own cash, thinking he could bet it and
make a killing. Once the mark's big money was on the table, there would
be some kind of "error" in transmission, and the mark would lose the big
bet he thought was going to make him rich.

What kind of error would lead to that?  Maurer cites a classic.  The
mark is told "Place the money on horse number 5 in the fourth race."
The mark would bet his wad on the horse to win; the results would
announce that his horse came in third.  In race results, the first horse
wins, the second "shows", and the third "places".

Those of you who remember "The Sting", the Robert Redford movie, saw how
a big store is set up, complete with a cast of actors (i.e., characters
in the film who take on roles to play in the fake betting parlor)
playing bettors, clerks, and all the others who might be seen in a real
bookie joint.  I remember the first time I saw that film, too.  I
recognized that great chunks of the screenplay had been plagiarized from
David Maurer's __The Big Con__, and it was a lot of fun to "predict" the
next turn in the story for the folks I was with.

Barry, the quotes from THE GIRL FROM RECTOR'S were a lot of fun to
read.  I'm glad you sent them.  The miss on "the big store", however,
suggests that Mr. Rector's ability to tell his stories well may not
necessarily say much about how well those stories mirror the reality
they're supposed to represent.

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!

P.S.:  Maurer's __The big con: the story of the confidence man and the
confidence game__ was originally published in 1940 by Bobbs- Merrill
(Indianapolis). Pocket Books brought it out in paperback in 1949, and
Anchor Books republished it in 1999.  I suspect that the same material
was published in 1974 by Thomas (Springfield, Ill.) as __The American
confidence man__, but I haven't had a chance to compare that edition
with the others.


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Fri Jun 30 09:03:56 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 05:03:56 -0400
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.050356.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter A. McGraw <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 29, 2000 5:49 PM
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts


>I was somewhat surprised at Andrea's posting.  To my knowledge, Oregon is
>the only place in the U.S. where this nut is grown, at least commercially,
>and to my knowledge it is the only part of the country where it's called a
>"filbert" instead of a "hazelnut."
>
>Trying to confirm this, I checked DARE and to my surprise found neither
>word.


Y'know, I just learned about this variation a few years ago from a friend of
mine, she's 40+, and lived in New Jersey all her life, but I don't know if
filbert or hazelnut is her native usage as it's never come up in actual use.

For me, it's always been hazelnut, since I've been a chocoholic since I was
about three. Okay, one and a half. In coffee and chocolate products, it's
*always* hazelnut. On its own, it's subject to local variation, and the only
other produced food venue I've seen it in is an Entenmann's pastry called a
Filbert Ring, pretty much a coffee cake, with hazelnuts. And those little
rolled wafer cookies that call them hazelnuts. They're usually sold in
association with coffee. Nutella uses hazelnut, it's a chocolate product.

For me, Filbert has always Rocko's turtle friend on Rocko's Modern Life, on
Nickelodeon.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 30 10:51:46 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:51:46 -0400
Subject: Some of my best friends are Jews
In-Reply-To: <14808A06301@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.065146.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, GEORGE THOMPSON wrote:

> When did the expression "some of my best friend are jews" come to be
> offered as the standard marker of a speaker who was at least
> marginally prejudiced.  (Or, the parallel "Some of my best friends
> are colored.")  Robert Gessner, a mentor of hers 60+ years ago,
> published a book with this title in 1936.  Given that its subject is
> anti-semitism in Europe of the time, I suppose that the title was
> taken ironically, that the expression was already recognized as
> usually leading to a "but . . . ."  She'd like confirmation.

The following citation seems confirmatory:

1936 _Economic Journal_ 46: 711  The initial declaration ... appears to
play the same role as the professional anti-Semite's prefatory announement
that some of his best friends are Jews.



Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Jun 30 12:56:27 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:56:27 +0100
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.135627.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> >Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of Oregon?

My father, who is a big fan of them, has always called them filberts.
(And that's what I learned to call them.) He's from Attica, NY.  It
seemed to me that 'hazelnut' got popularized among people I know only
after you started seeing coffees and chocolates flavored with them.  We
just had them whole when I was a kid (1970s).

Lynne


From vneufeldt at M-W.COM  Fri Jun 30 12:52:39 2000
From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:52:39 -0400
Subject: "jukebox"
In-Reply-To: <bd.49807a6.26882395@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.085239.0400.>

Just for the record, here are the results of my quick check in our old
citation files (didn't have time to do this earlier):

Fortune, Sept 1939:  "From fat to lean and halfway back again: for its
current boom the record industry can thank _juke-boxes_, light- and
heavy-music lovers, and technology."

Time, Sept 14 (? unclear on cite; p. # is 36), 1039:  "Once the upswing had
its initial bounce, other factors kept it moving.  Most important of these
was the popularity of the slot machine or "juke box" which retailed melody
in small barrooms, lunch counters and dance joints at 5c a shot.  With an
estimated consumption rate of more than 30,000,000 discs annually, the
300,000 juke boxes in the U.S. are today the record industry's largest
customer."

Harpers Magazine, Dec 1942:  "Then in the early 1930's _juke boxes_ began to
appear in large numbers.  At first they were simply a fad; today it is
estimated that there are more than four hundred thousand of them in
operation in the United States."

The Dec 25, 1939 issue of Time had a couple of interesting letters to the
editor:
1)     "Sirs: Perhaps I am getting behind in my knowledge of slang, but
where did you get the name "juke box" for nickel phonographs in your article
about Glenn Miller? (Time, Nov. 27).  In Michigan, Indiana and Ohio,
everyone calls them "Groan Boxes" and the expression, "Flip a nickel in the
groan," is generally understood.  Have you any other nicknames on file?
G. Carlton Burandt    Coldwater, Mich."
2)     "Sirs: Time (Nov. 27, p. 56) refers to a coin-operated phonograph as
a "juke box."  Since Gainesville is -- if not the birthplace -- at least the
incubator and nursery for the term, I feel a more-or-less fatherly interest
in it and ask that you conform to our usage in the future.  To the Florida
Man such an instrument is a jook-organ and nothing else.   My efforts to
point out reasons for our usage would be puny compared to Will McGuire's
excellent "A Note on Jook," so I will simply enclose a copy of his work for
your information.  This is taken from the spring 1938 edition of _The
Florida Review_, published at the University of Florida.   T.F. Koch
Gainesville, Fla."
An editorial note by Time follows: "Says Authority McGuire: '_jook_ as noun
means a rather ordinary roadhouse outside the city limits ... where beer is
for sale, and where there is a coin phonograph, or nickelodeon, and space
for dancing.'  --Ed."

Among other cites is one from The Commonweal, Sept 30, 1940 and another from
Liberty Magazine, October 26, 1940.  From 1941 on there are a fair number of
cites from a variety of periodicals.  One slip mentions a discussion of the
term in American Speech in 1940, which in turn mentions articles on its
origin and words derived from it, in the Chicago Tribune, in April, 1940
(Apr 2, p. 12; Apr 4, p. 16; and Apr 5, p. 16).

Victoria
Merriam-Webster, Inc. P.O. Box 281
Springfield, MA 01102
Tel: 413-734-3134  ext 124
Fax: 413-827-7262


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 11:10 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "jukebox"
>
>
>    Again, see the RHHDAS H-O, pp. 323-324 ("juke" and "jukebox" and "juke
> organ") and DARE I-O, pp. 163-164 ("jook" ).
>    I had found a "juke box" around the same time period in VARIETY.
>    The 1939 Barry Buchanan unpublished ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE ENTERTAINMENT
> WORLD might have "jukebox," but I haven't finished copying it.
>


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Jun 30 13:03:07 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:03:07 +0100
Subject: octothorpe
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.140307.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'd always called it a 'pound sign', but ran into trouble with that early in
the UK.  The pound sign £ for pounds sterling is on the same key on the
keyboard as the pound sign #, and that's one of the major differences btw UK
and US keyboards.  So telling the computer person that I was leaving the
keyboard on the US setting so that I could have the pound sign--well, that was
a bit confusing.

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320
> From:         Victoria Neufeldt <vneufeldt at M-W.COM>
> Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:06:07 -0400
> Subject:      Re: octothorpe
> To:           ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Reply-To:     American Dialect Society <ADS-L at listserv.uga.edu>
>
> I've noticed that "number sign" is what you hear in voicemail instructions
> ("press . . . followed by the number sign")  in Canada -- but I don't know
> if that is true across the country.  Which makes more sense to me too than
> "pound sign", since it is much more commonly used as a number sign.  In
> fact, its use as a sign for pound (meaning weight, not pound Sterling) must
> be pretty well obsolete -- at least I can't recall seeing it, except in a
> historical context.
>
> Victoria
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> > Of A. Vine
> > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 2:10 PM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: octothorpe
> >
> >
> > Yes.  I do.  And FWIW, the International Organization for
> > Standardization (ISO)
> > calls it NUMBER SIGN.  Alternate names are: pound sign, hash, crosshatch,
> > octothorpe.  ISO calls @ "COMMERCIAL AT" with no alternate names.
> >
> >
> > "Peter A. McGraw" wrote:
> > >
> > > Didn't anybody but me ever call it the "number sign" (as in #1, #5, #57,
> > > etc.)?
>


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Jun 30 13:08:05 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:08:05 +0100
Subject: Any of you *not* know another language?
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.140805.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> To the esteemed linguists and language experts on this list:
>
> Are there any of you who do *not* know a language other than English?
>
> Yet another snooty "my world is the only world" posting on another list, in case
> you were wondering.  But I'm also curious.

That depends on what you mean by 'knowing another language'.  I can say 'hello,
how are you? fine, thanks.  and you?' in a number of languages.  I don't think
this counts as knowing languages.  I can read French with a dictionary.  But
although I've taken courses in something like a dozen languages, I cannot hold a
conversation in anything but English.  (I want to try to regain the French,
however.)

I always tell people that asking a linguist how many languages she speaks is kind
of like asking a doctor how many diseases he has.

Lynne


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Fri Jun 30 13:32:01 2000
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:32:01 -0400
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.093201.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have three hazel nut trees in my yard in mid-Michigan. That's not
enough to claim I grow them commercially. But the squirrels don't know
the difference. Filbert and hazelnut are used interchangeably among the
people I know who mention the nut.

Bob

"Peter A. McGraw" wrote:
>
> I was somewhat surprised at Andrea's posting.  To my knowledge, Oregon is
> the only place in the U.S. where this nut is grown, at least commercially,
> and to my knowledge it is the only part of the country where it's called a
> "filbert" instead of a "hazelnut."
>
>


From dbritain at ESSEX.AC.UK  Fri Jun 30 13:30:48 2000
From: dbritain at ESSEX.AC.UK (D J Britain)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:30:48 +0100
Subject: Micronesian Englishes
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.143048.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone know of any research on the Englishes of Micronesia (Guam,
Saipan, Palau, the FSM, the Northern Marianas etc)? I've searched, but
so far in vain.

Cheers

Dave
dbritain at essex.ac.uk

Dr. David Britain
Department of Language and Linguistics
University of Essex
Wivenhoe Park
COLCHESTER
Great Britain CO4 3SQ

Telephone
(from within UK): 01206 872101
(from outside UK): +44 1206 872101

Facsimile
(from within UK): 01206 872198
(from outside UK): +44 1206 872198

E-Mail: dbritain at essex.ac.uk


From kelly at BARD.EDU  Fri Jun 30 13:22:51 2000
From: kelly at BARD.EDU (Robert Kelly)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:22:51 -0400
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
In-Reply-To: <1455285.3171278955@dhcp-218-202-137.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.092251.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

all through my childhood (1940s...) I encountered filberts in markets and
delis in NYC, so labeled, both scrawled on paperbag signs, and printed on
cellophane bags.  It was years before I discovered that this was the
famous hazelnut of literature, folklore and recipes.  Right now I can walk
into a supermarket and find  slightly glossier bags of filberts with no
reference on them to hazel.  In NYC, hazel was a color of the eye (my own
were so described on my draft card -- another thread will have to explain
what _that_ was).

RK

On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> I was somewhat surprised at Andrea's posting.  To my knowledge, Oregon is
> the only place in the U.S. where this nut is grown, at least commercially,
> and to my knowledge it is the only part of the country where it's called a
> "filbert" instead of a "hazelnut."
>
> Trying to confirm this, I checked DARE and to my surprise found neither
> word.
>
> You can find canned hazelnuts in Oregon stores (even if they were grown in
> Oregon), but you'll look in vain for a grower who calls his spread a
> "hazelnut orchard"--or at least you'd have looked in vain for such a person
> when I was growing up on an Oregon filbert farm.
>
> Just today I ran across a newspaper story about an organization called the
> Hazelnut Marketing Board, based in Portland.  Nothing strange about that if
> they are trying to market the product nationally, but what was strange was
> that the article, from the local paper in Wilsonville, the nearest town to
> our family filbert farm, referred to a "local hazelnut grower."  I wonder
> if the newspaper writer is an ignorant newcomer.  It's hard to imaging that
> the local usage could be changing--it would still seem bizarre for me to
> call the nut anything but a filbert when talking to another Oregonian, at
> least when referring to the nut when it's still on the tree or on the
> ground or being picked.
>
> Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of Oregon?
>
> Peter Mc.
>
>
> --On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 10:45 AM -0700 Andrea Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> wrote:
>
> > Hmm, how about hazelnuts/filberts?
> >
> > Greg Pulliam wrote:
> >>
> >> How about garbanzos/chickpeas?
> >> --
>
>
>
> ****************************************************************************
>                                Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu
>


From jdespres at MAIL.M-W.COM  Fri Jun 30 09:53:35 2000
From: jdespres at MAIL.M-W.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:53:35 +0000
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.095335.0000.>

My mother (from Massachusetts) calls them both "filberts" and
"hazelnuts."

Joanne Despres


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Fri Jun 30 14:40:38 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:40:38 -0400
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
In-Reply-To: <E1380Ii-0000hL-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.104038.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's my recollection that I've always known both terms. My grandfather was
very big on nuts; he always had a wide assortment. (I regret to say I
didn't know the proper name for Brazil nuts until well into my teen
years.) I would agree with Lynne that hazelnut came into the fore with the
rise of flavored coffees; hazelnut also seems to be the term of
preference among chocolates, but I know that I saw/heard filbert as a kid,
too in the early 70s in mid-Michigan.


--- Steve K.


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Fri Jun 30 14:31:17 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:31:17 +0200
Subject: ADS Web Site: Move Complete
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.163117.0200.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

Just a quick note to say that the ADS web site move has finally been completed.

Bill Kretzschmar's assistant at UGA, Eric Rochester, was of inestimable help--he did
most of the work in arranging the domain name transfer, setting up the new server,
installing the search engine and working with the technical staff there.

If you find anything amiss, please drop me a line personally rather than to the
list, as I am off-list for the duration of my stay in Paris.

Grant

--

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at monickels.com
http://www.monickels.com/
AIM: monickels
30 rue de Beaubourg
75003 Paris, FRANCE
Paris phone: 01 42 72 77 62
International: 33 1 42 72 77 62
Fax, Voicemail US: Toll-free 1-888-392-4832, ext. 291-340-4218


From Abatefr at CS.COM  Fri Jun 30 14:52:37 2000
From: Abatefr at CS.COM (Frank Abate)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:52:37 EDT
Subject: octothorpe; nails
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.105237.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Re Steve K's comments on penny and nails:

I happen to have a couple boxes of nails at hand.  They do indeed use the "#"
sign, thus:

  #4D  bright finish nail
  #6D  bright common nail

If I were a carpenter (sorry), I'd say "4 penny nails" and "6 penny nails"
for these designations, ignoring the "#".  The "#" sign is to show (I guess)
that the 4 and the 6 are numeric designators (how could anyone not realize
this?), but seems to be a convention often used in designating nails.  The
"D" is a common abbrev. for "penny" (in ref to nails), reflecting the former
UK practice of using this letter to designate a penny (before the change to
decimal currency).  Just to confuse things further, the "D" actually stands
for "denarius", the Latin name for a Roman coin of low value.

So we have the number sign (aka pound sign, etc.) used in a convention that
represents the "penny" designation for nails, and the abbrev. for penny is
from a Latin word.  Ain't life a hoot.  It gets better:

OED (at penny 10) says that the "penny" designation for nails refers to their
price per hundred in the 15th century.  The tradition persists, though not
the prices, and now they are often sold in bulk by the pound (in the US, at
least).  The "#4D" nails I have here are shorter than the "#6D" ones.  The
numeric designation is now used to refer to the length of the nails (whatever
the type, as "common nail" vs. "finish nail"), as indicated by a chart on the
boxes I have, which show every size from "4d" (1.5 inches; 38 mm) to "20d" (4
inches; 102 mm).  Note that the "penny" designator is here a lower-case d,
and on the charts is actually shown as superscript.

For the record, the boxes are "distributed by the Howard Berger Co., Inc.
Brooklyn, NY 11207".  They are marked "Made in China".  Each box cost $1.69
for a pound of nails.

There's a lot of currents roiling around in this one.  Have fun.

Frank Abate


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Fri Jun 30 15:00:07 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:00:07 -0400
Subject: octothorpe; nails
In-Reply-To: <bd.4beb35f.268e0e35@cs.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.110007.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Frank Abate wrote:

>   #4D  bright finish nail
>   #6D  bright common nail

My bad -- I always assumed # here had to do with weight per hundred, not
(originally) price per hundred. *Sigh*.

> There's a lot of currents roiling around in this one.  Have fun.

My head hurts.

--- Steve K.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 30 15:12:04 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:12:04 EDT
Subject: HOOPALISTIC?
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.111204.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This from a recent article in my local newspaper:

"_Hoopalistic_ is that particular style of preaching with the hacking sound
following each sentence, used primarily by black preachers. It's also
referred to as a rhythmic cadence. That . . . style of preaching has its
roots in the sound made by black workers when they raise heavy sledgehammers,
etc. overhead and slam them down."

Any wisdom on this? I checked Geneva Smiterhman's TALKIN' THAT TALK and found
nothing about the hacking sound. However, I am dubious about this origin
story, in part because the "rhythmic cadence" is a practice of white
preachers as well.


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Fri Jun 30 16:56:00 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:56:00 -0500
Subject: a recipe
In-Reply-To: <200006142153.RAA30278@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.115600.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Since we have taken to exchanging favorite recipes lately, here's one
from last week's NYTimes many will find very useful, now that the
season for backyard barbeques and picnicing is at hand.  It is an
elephant repellant:

Dung-Pepper Anti-elephant Briquettes.  (Courtesy of Kinos Maribu)
1 pound of hot chilies, crushed.
2 pounds fresh elephant dung.

1.  Blend the dung and pounded peppers and form into a brick shape.
2.  Place in the sun for a day or two to harden and dry out.

Yield.  Makes one briquette.

You place this in your backyard and set it on fire whenever you feel
the need to keep off wandering elephants.  Elephant dung is found in
better speciality shops everywhere.

GAT


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 30 16:26:47 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:26:47 -0400
Subject: "jukebox" and "nickelodeon"
In-Reply-To: <000001bfe292$12f7de40$282b62ce@vneufeldt.m-w.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.122647.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Victoria Neufeldt at Merriam-Webster writes (inter alia):
>Just for the record, here are the results of my quick check in our old
>citation files (didn't have time to do this earlier):
>
>...
>The Dec 25, 1939 issue of Time had a couple of interesting letters to the
>editor:
>1)     "Sirs: Perhaps I am getting behind in my knowledge of slang, but
>where did you get the name "juke box" for nickel phonographs in your article
>about Glenn Miller? (Time, Nov. 27).  In Michigan, Indiana and Ohio,
>everyone calls them "Groan Boxes" and the expression, "Flip a nickel in the
>groan," is generally understood.  Have you any other nicknames on file?
>G. Carlton Burandt    Coldwater, Mich."

=========
The 1939 reference to the jukebox as a 'nickel phonograph' above reminds me
of a term that for a while overlapped with it, NICKELODEON (yes, for you
youngsters, before the cable network appropriated the name).  It's hard for
anyone of a certain age not to think of 'nickelodeon' in the jukebox sense
without that old (c. 1950?) ditty popping up--

Put another nickel in,
In the nickelodeon,
All I want is lovin' you
And music, music, music

--but the OED makes it clear that the 'jukebox' sense of "nickelodeon" was
a transfer from the original, and it's that original that underlies the
network's appropriation.  But note that this transferred use of
'nickelodeon' evidently slightly predated the appearance (in attested
print) of 'juke box' itself.  And the role of Florida jook houses is
reinforced by that '38 cite.

NICKELODEON
1. A theatre or motion-picture show for which the admission fee is a
nickel; a place containing automatic machines to provide amusement, which
can be used
for a nickel. Also attrib.

       1921 Ladies' Home Jrnl. June 79/1 It is this class which first
patronized the old nickelodeon, and undoubtedly it imposed its tastes and
its traditions
       on the picture makers.

       1927 F. Hurst Song of Life 292 The nickelodeons and the gewgaw shops
of the most terrific city in the world.

       1930 Time & Tide 27 Sept. 1206 The film was..handed over by the
scientists to the `nickelodeons' of America.

       1938 Encycl. Brit. Bk. of Year 422/2 The old nickelodeon programmes.

       1939 C. Morley Kitty Foyle 68 A dance floor and a nickelodeon piano.

       1955 G. Greene Quiet American 188 It must have belonged to the same
era as the nickelodeon.

       1973 Publishers Weekly 10 Sept. 45/2 The development of American
movies from nickelodeon days to the 1970s.

2. A `jukebox'; a machine that automatically plays selected gramophone
records on the insertion of a coin. Also attrib.

       1938 Florida Review Spring 25/1 The requisites of a place entitling
it to the name jook are..presence of the nickelodeon, and..of the
dance-floor.

       1949 Sat. Even. Post 15 Jan. 88/3 A nickelodeon at the end of the
street emits a tinny piano tinkle.

       1957 J. Frame Owls do Cry 76 Putting money in the nickelodeon.

P.S.  There's a very interesting thread the Mechanical Music Digest (from
January 1997) archived at
http://www.foxtail.com/Archives/RawDigests/97.01/digest.97.01.30.txt
on the subject of whether "nickelodeons" were not true juke boxes but only
nickel-operated automatic pianos; the consensus is that term was indeed a
generic encompassing what we now call juke-boxes as well as the automatic
pianos played at movie theaters and elsewhere.  Principles of lexicography
are batted back and forth, and the term "orchestrion" is also touched on,
as well as "honky-tonk".  Amazing what you can find on the web.

larry


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 30 16:29:07 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:29:07 -0400
Subject: "jukebox" and "nickelodeon"
In-Reply-To: <v04011704b58273321962@[130.132.116.12]> from "Laurence Horn" at
 Jun 30, 2000 12:26:47 PM
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.122907.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
> --but the OED makes it clear that the 'jukebox' sense of "nickelodeon" was
> a transfer from the original, and it's that original that underlies the
> network's appropriation.  But note that this transferred use of
> 'nickelodeon' evidently slightly predated the appearance (in attested
> print) of 'juke box' itself.  And the role of Florida jook houses is
> reinforced by that '38 cite.
>
> NICKELODEON
> 1. A theatre or motion-picture show for which the admission fee is a
> nickel; a place containing automatic machines to provide amusement, which
> can be used
> for a nickel. Also attrib.
>
>        1921 Ladies' Home Jrnl. June 79/1 It is this class which first
> patronized the old nickelodeon, and undoubtedly it imposed its tastes and
> its traditions
>        on the picture makers.

Before Barry jumps in, let me say that when the N batch gets published
in a year or two, it will have antedated this word to 1888.

> 2. A `jukebox'; a machine that automatically plays selected gramophone
> records on the insertion of a coin. Also attrib.
>
>        1938 Florida Review Spring 25/1 The requisites of a place entitling
> it to the name jook are..presence of the nickelodeon, and..of the
> dance-floor.

However, this is still our earliest for sense 2, at least as far as I
can tell.

Best,

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Fri Jun 30 18:02:24 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:02:24 -0500
Subject: The Big Con
In-Reply-To: <v04011704b58273321962@[130.132.116.12]>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.130224.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If Mike Salovesh hasn't been astonished lately, he should look up
David Maurer's The Big Con in Bookfinder.  The original 1940 edition
is going for $800, $950, if signed by Broderick Crawford, and into
the thousands, if the book dealer has had the imagination to tie it
to the movie.  I once owned the original paperback edition, and
evidently will have to settle for the new paperback.

GAT


From W-Stone at NEIU.EDU  Fri Jun 30 17:25:57 2000
From: W-Stone at NEIU.EDU (William Stone)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:25:57 -0500
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.122557.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For what it's worth, in my part of S.E. England, hazelnuts were what you picked from
the tree, but if you bought them in the store, they were called cobs.  I'm not even
sure if that name still persists.  Is there any place in N. America where the term
cob is used?

William Stone
Linguistics Department
N. E. Illinois University


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From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Jun 30 17:44:06 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:44:06 -0700
Subject: Any of you *not* know another language?
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.104406.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Lynne Murphy wrote:
>
> > To the esteemed linguists and language experts on this list:
> >
> > Are there any of you who do *not* know a language other than English?
> >
> > Yet another snooty "my world is the only world" posting on another list, in case
> > you were wondering.  But I'm also curious.
>
> That depends on what you mean by 'knowing another language'.  I can say 'hello,
> how are you? fine, thanks.  and you?' in a number of languages.  I don't think
> this counts as knowing languages.  I can read French with a dictionary.  But
> although I've taken courses in something like a dozen languages, I cannot hold a
> conversation in anything but English.  (I want to try to regain the French,
> however.)
>
> I always tell people that asking a linguist how many languages she speaks is kind
> of like asking a doctor how many diseases he has.

What a great statement!  Can I use that?


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Jun 30 17:46:32 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:46:32 -0700
Subject: Any of you *not* know another language?
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.104632.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Bethany K. Dumas" wrote:
>
> On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, A. Vine wrote:
>
> >>Are there any of you who do *not* know a language other than English?
> Yet another snooty "my world is the only world" posting on another list,
> in case you were wondering.  But I'm also curious.<<<
>
> I don't understand. Are you claiming to be posting a snooty MWITOW item?
> It doesn't sound like you ...
>

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  There was a posting (from someone else) on another list
in response to whether data should have a collation scheme associated with it or
whether the collation should be the choice of the end user, which went as
follows:

  Of course, if an monolingual Anglophone wishes to see them all sorted
  according to English rules (what is the English rule for &ntilde;?),
  I am (as I think I have said) not against it.  I am violently
  against systems that won't allow anything else.

  Provisions for i18n and l10n should not cater *solely* to the ignorance
  of monollinguals.

So, I recall some of the linguistics students in college not knowing other
languages.  And I was wondering if any of the linguists on this list fit that
profile.  Just because someone is monolingual, does not mean s/he is ignorant in
my books.  User preference is user preference.


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Jun 30 18:12:18 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:12:18 -0400
Subject: Any of you *not* know another language?
In-Reply-To: <395CDCF8.65079B67@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.141218.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, A. Vine clarified for me --

>Sorry, I wasn't clear.  There was a posting (from someone else) on another list
>in response to whether data should have a collation scheme associated with it or
>whether the collation should be the choice of the end user, which went as
>follows: [etc.

Thanks. I understand now.

Bethany


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Jun 30 18:41:29 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:41:29 -0700
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0006301035460.26801-100000@shell3.shore.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.114129.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wow!  Thanks for all the responses!  It seems clear that what I interpreted
as geographical was more a matter of chronology and context.  Since I was
in other parts of the country when I began hearing "hazelnut," I obviously
reached the erronious conclusion that people in those parts of the country
had always preferred that word.

And now an Oregon newspaper even writes of "hazelnut growers"!  There goes
the neighborhood!

Peter Mc.


****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Fri Jun 30 20:11:51 2000
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:11:51 -0500
Subject: Query: Illustrations in Airplane Magazine
In-Reply-To: <200006300639.CAA13364@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.151151.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This article was in the US Airways Attache June 2000 ish.

Just quickly (Henry must be fed, and soon) I see:

asleep at the switch, cold feet, quick draw, cut the mustard, & on the ball.

I do not know what the machine in the gizmo.com crate nor the
tipped-over letterbox are supposed to signify.

Good luck!

Erin McKean
editor at verbatimmag.com




>I'm off-list folks, but this one is derned interesting. Please
>forward any answers
>to the original sender, although you may want to carbon-copy the list.
>
>
>
>Mr. Barrett,
>     My name is Eunice Buchanan.  You may think this request is a bit odd.
>However, I recently was a passenger on a USAir Flight.  On board, I had the
>pleasure of viewing an article regarding American Dialect Society.
>Unfortunately, I cannot recall the name of the magazine.  The article
>consisted of how certain words came into existence and the years they were
>officially entered into our vocabulary.  I enjoyed the article, however, I
>was somewhat disappointed.  Not in the article itself, what caught my
>attention of the article was the cartoon drawings illustrating some commons
>phrases and quotes used in American dialect.  For example, one drawing was a
>man hitting his head against a brick wall..."hard head"; a cat in a tree with
>a dog barking..."barking up the wrong tree".  Many other drawings were
>represented, some of which I could not figure out.  This brings me to my
>problem.  I am having a fit trying to figure out the phrases for the
>remaining drawings, the answers were not given anywhere in the magazine.  If
>you are familiar with this article, or have any suggestions, could you please
>forward the information to me via email.  Once again, thank you for
>entertaining this odd request.
>
>Eunice Buchanan
>www.icicle0729 at aol.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 30 21:57:33 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:57:33 EDT
Subject: Fwd: Whole Nine Yards
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.175733.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just double-checked on this--Barry Popik
-------------- next part --------------
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Subject: RE: Whole Nine Yards
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:07:20 -0500
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From prez234 at JUNO.COM  Sun Jun 11 09:53:43 2000
From: prez234 at JUNO.COM (Joseph McCollum)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 04:53:43 CDT
Subject: X-POSTED
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.045343.CDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:52:41 -0400 Alan Baragona <baragonasa at VAX.VMI.EDU>
writes:
>X-POSTED
>
>I just received the following disturbing message from the LINGUIST
>e-list.  Is the listserv software for this list also affected?
>
>"LINGUIST has had some bad news.  The developers of listserv software
>have admitted that the version which LINGUIST runs is not Year 2000
>compliant.  As most of you know, listserv is an email-list management
>program--the only one, to our knowledge, able to handle a list the
>size of LINGUIST.  And, as most of you can easily imagine, a Y2K Bug
>could play havoc with a date-oriented operation like LINGUIST.  So we
>have no choice but to upgrade to the newest version of listserv.  But
>an upgrade costs $2500."

Let's test it.  I have just changed the date in my PC to Jun 10, 2000.
(I have altered the date before on my PC, sent messages to other
listservs, and the message would get through fine.)


From prez234 at JUNO.COM  Mon Jun 26 09:29:15 2000
From: prez234 at JUNO.COM (Joseph McCollum)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 04:29:15 CDT
Subject: Barry Popik
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.042915.CDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:24:00 -0700 Bob Fitzke <fitzke at VOYAGER.NET>
writes:
>--------------EA78821FA4650B8ADEA7515C
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>If the following was noted by anyone on the list and previously
>posted, I missed it.
>
>In the June issue of the "Smithsonian", in an article entitled, Hot
>Dogs Are Us, the following appears at page 107 in a discussion
>of the origin of the phrase "hot dog":
>
>   for several years. Popik, who combines a self assured manor with a
>facial expression of chronic surprise, concentrates on studying old
college
>magazines. The earlist hot dog mention he has come up with so far is a
>story from the Yale Record of Oct 19, 1895 titled "'The Abductiion of
the Night Lunch >Wagon" in which students 'contentedly munched hot dogs.'
"
>
The newscaster Paul Harvey in "The Rest of the Story" claimed an origin
of the term "hot dog."  I don't remember what date it was, but I want to
say that his earliest cite of "hot dog" was from a sports cartoon, not
from a collegiate magazine story.  I also want to say that stadium
vendors wanted a short expression for their delicacy.

I meant to look it up, but I think
"gata por mi coche" is "a car jack for my car (in exchange for my car),"
while
"gata para mi coche" is "a car jack for my car (in order to repair my
car)."


From prez234 at JUNO.COM  Thu Jun 29 10:20:33 2000
From: prez234 at JUNO.COM (Joseph McCollum)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 05:20:33 CDT
Subject: "pastrami"
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.052033.CDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 15:03:27 +0000 Jim Rader <jrader at M-W.COM> writes:
>
>All this reminds me--and takes us back to American speech--that I
>grew up in Chicago among folk of German-American and Polish-American
>ancestry and I never heard the word "kielbasa."  We always called it
>"Polish sausage."  When I was a little kid in the '50's I heard it as
>"poler sausage" and only dimly associated it with Poles.  We used to
>get it from my great uncle Sam, a butcher who must have immigrated to
>North America when he was in his '20's.  He was the only person in my
>family with a foreign accent.
>
>Jim Rader
>
I grew up near Pittsburgh, PA in the 1960's-1970's -- and I heard
"kielbasa" all the time.  There were many different spellings of the
word.  The Washington, PA Observer-Reporter had a story in the mid-1970's
on the different spellings.
The only other one I remember is "kolbassy."  Supermarkets have replaced
a lot of the neighborhood butcher shops, so I'll bet the spelling has
been standardized since then.


From prez234 at JUNO.COM  Fri Jun 30 02:54:22 2000
From: prez234 at JUNO.COM (Joseph McCollum)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:54:22 CDT
Subject: president & First Lady
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.215422.CDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What's the male equivalent of "first lady?"  Many states have adopted
"first gentleman," but I rather like "first lord."


From prez234 at JUNO.COM  Thu Jun  1 08:02:16 2000
From: prez234 at JUNO.COM (Joseph McCollum)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 03:02:16 CDT
Subject: metadata?
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.030216.CDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think this claim has been decided as frivolous (or it ought to be).  In
any case, I would like to know if "metadata" existed as a generic word
before 1986 (when the trademark was issued)...My colleagues are sure that
it did, but maybe Barry P. or others could confirm it.
------
Please be advised that our firm represents The Metadata Company LLC which
is
the holder of all rights in the trademark METADATA as applied to computer
programs and computer program manuals.  Our client's mark is registered
as
U.S. Trademark Registration Nos. 1,409,260 and 2,185,504, copies of which
are enclosed herewith.  Our client's Registration No. 1,409,360 has
become
incontestable as provided by 15 U.S.C. ? 1065.

It has come to our client's attention that your organization has
published
documents on the Internet in which our client's registered trademark,
METADATA, has been misused, and has invited interested entities to
download
a copy of a document with this misused and infringing form of our
client's
mark.  We refer specifically to your use at your web [site] of our
client's
mark in your description of an "ANZLIC Metadata Entry Tool (MET)".

Our client has no objection to the use of the two separate words, "Meta
Data" or even the hyphenated term "Meta-data" to describe data about data
or
as a title for any software you wish to provide.  However, the single
unhyphenated term, "METADATA" is a federally registered trademark in the
United States which belongs exclusively to our client.  We would
appreciate
it if you would provide us with your written commitment that you will
ensure
that your future web site publications and any other publications do not
misuse our client's registered trademark, METADATA.
-------------------------------------------------------


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Thu Jun  1 02:08:02 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:08:02 -0700
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
In-Reply-To: <E12xAAs-0002EJ-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.31.MAY.2000.190802.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>...  Marmalade comes in orange, lemon, and grapefruit varieties.

And lime and tangerine and ginger...

Rima


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Jun  1 02:24:06 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:24:06 -0600
Subject: Ich bin ein Berliner
Message-ID: <WED.31.MAY.2000.202406.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Allan Metcalf correctly  suspects that (Reinhold) Aman convincingly
rejected the notion that  Kennedy was understood to say "I am a
jelly-doughnut." Aman's article appeared in his publication _Maledicta_,
but I do not have the exact reference handy.  I'll get ahold of it tomorrow
and share it with ADS-L.

-----Gerald Cohen
>
><< BERLIN DOUGHNUTS
>
>"I am a jelly doughnut."
>--John F. Kennedy (translated from the German) >>
>
>This translation of Kennedy's "Ich bin ein Berliner" is a myth. Was it
>Reinhard Aman who wrote the definitive article about it? Perhaps someone has
>a reference to the specific publication.
>
>- Allan Metcalf



gcohen at umr.edu


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Thu Jun  1 01:35:57 2000
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:35:57 -0700
Subject: metadata
In-Reply-To: <1874204.3168780497@[10.218.202.108]>
Message-ID: <WED.31.MAY.2000.183557.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't know, but here is the company's take on it from their web-page
(http://www.metadata.com):

The Mark Metadata

The mark METADATA was registered in 1986 in the United States of America
Patent and Trademark Office as U.S. Trademark Registration   No 1,409,206
and is a valuable proprietary trade name and trademark belonging to The
Metadata Company. The trademark was  granted "Incontestable" status in
1991.

When used as a trade name it stands for The Metadata Company.

When used as a trademark it symbolizes the owner of that mark as the
source of computer programs bearing that mark.  When the registered mark
METADATA is used in print, the proprietary nature of that mark must be
preserved. Accordingly, when the mark METADATA is used, it should always
begin with a capital "M" or be completely capitalized. Also, it should
always be noted in any publication that the mark is a registered trademark
of The Metadata Company.

The mark should not be used generically as a noun, or as a descriptive
term, but rather only in its proper context, which is an identification of
The Metadata Company or as a registered trademark for computer programs
bearing that mark.

If the intent of the use of the term METADATA is to mean "data about
data", then it should be used as two words (meta data) or hyphenated
(meta-data).

In the early summer of 1969, after defining the architecture of what was
later to be called the Metamodel, Jack E. Myers coined a new word -
"metadata". He first used the term in print in a 1973 product brochure. It
was    intentionally designed to be a term with no particular meaning that
would be catchy and possibly easy to remember...e.g., "I never metadata I
did not like."

In his experience and knowledge it was a new term. A data and publication
search at that time did not discover any use either of the word
"metadata" or "meta data".   If META and DATA were used as two words, they
would refer to the data about meta e.g., "a triple and conical turning
post placed at each end of a track in a Roman Circus." (Webster Dictionary
of the English Language).  The word META had several established meanings
when used to prefix other words but none when used to prefix the word
DATA. METADATA could not be inferred from other uses of META. It is not,
e.g.,:

data that has been changed in position or form, altered or transposed, as
in METAmorphosed;

data that is abstract, abstruse or subtle, as in METAphysics. ( The use of
META in metaphysics referred to those books by Aristotle that came after
his books on physics. Adler's Philosophical Dictionary, ISBN
0-684-80360-7)


data that is behind or in back, as in METAthorax.

Use of the word meta- is found in the article "Gurus of
Meta-Human," September 29, 1997, issue of Newsweek. The author, Rick
Marin, states that: part of being "alternative" means being "meta," or one
level cooler than everybody else.

The intent of the term Metadata was to be used to represent current and
future lines of products implementing the concepts of the Metamodel and
also to designate a company that would develop and market those
products.  Mr. Myers, the  developer of the Metadata Data Model
(Metamodel), is a principal of The Metadata Company.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meta-Data and Meta Data

Meta data, n. [from L. meta-; Gr. meta- and L. data] Data that
characterizes other data in a reflexive way, e.g., data about
data. Analogous to words about words. In data processing, it is
definitional data that provides information about or documentation of
other data managed within an application or environment. For example, meta
data would document data about DATA ELEMENTS or ATTRIBUTES, (name, size,
data type, etc) and data about RECORDS or DATA STRUCTURES (length,
fields/columns, etc) and data about DATA (where it is located, how it is
associated, ownership, etc.). Meta data may include descriptive
information about the context, quality and condition, or characteristics
of the data.

Return to top of page


On Wed, 31 May 2000, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> Does the prior generic existence of a word preclude registering it as a
> trademark and thus reserving it for that purpose from then on?
>
> Peter
>
> --On Thu, Jun 1, 2000 3:02 AM +0000 Joseph McCollum <prez234 at JUNO.COM>
> wrote:
>
> > I think this claim has been decided as frivolous (or it ought to be).  In
> > any case, I would like to know if "metadata" existed as a generic word
> > before 1986 (when the trademark was issued)...My colleagues are sure that
> > it did, but maybe Barry P. or others could confirm it.
> > ------
> >
> ****************************************************************************
>                                Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu
>


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Thu Jun  1 02:39:47 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:39:47 -0400
Subject: metadata.
Message-ID: <WED.31.MAY.2000.223947.0400.>

Doesn't anyone on the list watch "Who wants to be a millionaire?"
I just watched today's show a couple of hours after the event and I am looking
forward to seeing Fred Shapiro in the hotseat tomorrow. Best wishes to Fred.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  1 04:34:33 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 00:34:33 EDT
Subject: Monte Cristo sandwich
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.003433.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    The Indiana Pacers just beat the New York Knicks.  Pacer Mark Jackson
gave his "cross" sign after scoring a basket.  He said it wasn't to counter
Larry Johnson's "L" sign--it was just to praise Jesus.
    Maybe Jesus can tell me if it's the Con-SEE-Co or Con-SAY-Co Arena.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MONTE CRISTO SANDWICH

     From John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK:

_Monte Cristo sandwich._  A sandwich composed of ham, chicken, and Swiss
cheese enclosed in bread that is dipped in beaten egg and fried until golden
brown.  The origin of the name is not known.

     From GOURMET, July 1968, pg. 53, col. 2:

Q: My husband is Danish and trained in restaurant work, and we have just
arrived in California from Copenhagen.  We were recently served a Monte
Cristo sandwich at a Los Angeles restaurant, and are most interested in
learning the recipe.  We have been given a subscription to your magazine and
are very pleased with the many fine features you have.
MRS. FLEMMING LINDBERG
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
A: Perhaps named after the Count, here is
     _Monte Cristo Sandwich_
     Butter a slice of white bread and cover it with sliced lean baked ham
and sliced cooked chicken.  Butter a second slice on both sides, place it on
the meat, and cover it with thinly sliced Swiss cheese.  Butter a third slice
and place it, buttered side down, over the cheese.  Trim away the crusts and
cut the sandwich in half.  Secure the halves with wooden picks, dip them in
beaten egg, and saute them in butter on both sides until they are golden
brown.  Remove the picks and serve the sandwich with currant jelly,
strawberry jam, or cranberry sauce.  Serves 1.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MONKEY TEARS

     Any relation to Monkey Bread?
     From the LOS ANGELES TIMES PRIZE COOK BOOK (1923), pg. 271, col. 1:

     _MONKEY TEARS_
     One cup sugar, four tablespoonfuls butter, one egg beat, mix well.
One-half cup sour milk, one scant teaspoon soda, dissolved in one tablespoon
of water and add to the sour milk.  Two and one-fourth cups of flour, add.
Drop small tablespoonfuls on greased pans about two inches apart.  Pat down
and place three large raisins in center of each.  (These are the tears.)
Bake in moderate oven.
--Mrs. P. G. Wiseman, Los Angeles.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BAKING BLIND

     From GOURMET, January 1965, pg. 24, col. 3:

     _In foreign recipes, what it meant by baking pies and tarts "blind"?_
     Baking "blind" means simply that the pie shells or tart shells are baked
separately, without a filling.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SPIZZAZ

     From 10,000 SNACKS (1937) by Cora, Rose, and Bob Brown, pg. 448:

     Beyond the citrus belt are the snake farms, and from there come smoked
rattlesnake tidbits that put the spizzaz in cocktail parties.

     The OED has 1937 for "pizzazz."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
FOOD MISC.

THREE GRUNTS AND A SIGH--This pork dish is on page 132 of THE PALATISTS BOOK
OF COOKERY (Hollywood, Calif., 1933).

SNICKERDOODLES--Another sighting ("snicker doodles") is on page 91 of
SELECTED RECIPES (Falmouth Foreside, Maine; November 1929).  Yet another
sighting ("snickerdoodles") is on page 123 of LOOK BEFORE YOU COOK (1941) by
Rose and Bob Brown.

PEANUT BUTTER AND JELLY SANDWICH--MRS. WILLIAM VAUGHN MOODY'S COOK BOOK
(1931) has "White Bread, Entire Wheat Bread, Peanut Butter, Currant Jelly"
sandwich on pages 410-411.


From MILLERJ at FRANKLINCOLL.EDU  Thu Jun  1 06:18:02 2000
From: MILLERJ at FRANKLINCOLL.EDU (Miller, Jerry)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:18:02 -0500
Subject: Monte Cristo sandwich
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.011802.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's Con-SEE-Co Fieldhouse.

Jesus


        -----Original Message-----
        From:   Bapopik at AOL.COM [SMTP:Bapopik at AOL.COM]
        Sent:   Wednesday, May 31, 2000 11:35 PM
        To:     ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
        Subject:        Monte Cristo sandwich

            The Indiana Pacers just beat the New York Knicks.  Pacer Mark
Jackson
        gave his "cross" sign after scoring a basket.  He said it wasn't to
counter
        Larry Johnson's "L" sign--it was just to praise Jesus.
            Maybe Jesus can tell me if it's the Con-SEE-Co or Con-SAY-Co
Arena.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
        ---------------------------------------------
        MONTE CRISTO SANDWICH

             From John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK:

        _Monte Cristo sandwich._  A sandwich composed of ham, chicken, and
Swiss
        cheese enclosed in bread that is dipped in beaten egg and fried
until golden
        brown.  The origin of the name is not known.

             From GOURMET, July 1968, pg. 53, col. 2:

        Q: My husband is Danish and trained in restaurant work, and we have
just
        arrived in California from Copenhagen.  We were recently served a
Monte
        Cristo sandwich at a Los Angeles restaurant, and are most interested
in
        learning the recipe.  We have been given a subscription to your
magazine and
        are very pleased with the many fine features you have.
        MRS. FLEMMING LINDBERG
        LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
        A: Perhaps named after the Count, here is
             _Monte Cristo Sandwich_
             Butter a slice of white bread and cover it with sliced lean
baked ham
        and sliced cooked chicken.  Butter a second slice on both sides,
place it on
        the meat, and cover it with thinly sliced Swiss cheese.  Butter a
third slice
        and place it, buttered side down, over the cheese.  Trim away the
crusts and
        cut the sandwich in half.  Secure the halves with wooden picks, dip
them in
        beaten egg, and saute them in butter on both sides until they are
golden
        brown.  Remove the picks and serve the sandwich with currant jelly,
        strawberry jam, or cranberry sauce.  Serves 1.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
        ---------------------------------------------
        MONKEY TEARS

             Any relation to Monkey Bread?
             From the LOS ANGELES TIMES PRIZE COOK BOOK (1923), pg. 271,
col. 1:

             _MONKEY TEARS_
             One cup sugar, four tablespoonfuls butter, one egg beat, mix
well.
        One-half cup sour milk, one scant teaspoon soda, dissolved in one
tablespoon
        of water and add to the sour milk.  Two and one-fourth cups of
flour, add.
        Drop small tablespoonfuls on greased pans about two inches apart.
Pat down
        and place three large raisins in center of each.  (These are the
tears.)
        Bake in moderate oven.
        --Mrs. P. G. Wiseman, Los Angeles.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
        ---------------------------------------------
        BAKING BLIND

             From GOURMET, January 1965, pg. 24, col. 3:

             _In foreign recipes, what it meant by baking pies and tarts
"blind"?_
             Baking "blind" means simply that the pie shells or tart shells
are baked
        separately, without a filling.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
        ---------------------------------------------
        SPIZZAZ

             From 10,000 SNACKS (1937) by Cora, Rose, and Bob Brown, pg.
448:

             Beyond the citrus belt are the snake farms, and from there come
smoked
        rattlesnake tidbits that put the spizzaz in cocktail parties.

             The OED has 1937 for "pizzazz."


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
        ---------------------------------------------
        FOOD MISC.

        THREE GRUNTS AND A SIGH--This pork dish is on page 132 of THE
PALATISTS BOOK
        OF COOKERY (Hollywood, Calif., 1933).

        SNICKERDOODLES--Another sighting ("snicker doodles") is on page 91
of
        SELECTED RECIPES (Falmouth Foreside, Maine; November 1929).  Yet
another
        sighting ("snickerdoodles") is on page 123 of LOOK BEFORE YOU COOK
(1941) by
        Rose and Bob Brown.

        PEANUT BUTTER AND JELLY SANDWICH--MRS. WILLIAM VAUGHN MOODY'S COOK
BOOK
        (1931) has "White Bread, Entire Wheat Bread, Peanut Butter, Currant
Jelly"
        sandwich on pages 410-411.


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Thu Jun  1 08:24:48 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 04:24:48 -0400
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.042448.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm at SLIP.NET>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: jams, jellies, and preserves


>>...  Marmalade comes in orange, lemon, and grapefruit varieties.
>
>And lime and tangerine and ginger...


Ginger marmalade!?! Oh frabjous day! I now have a quest...

And so, with the inclusion of ginger marmalade, any simple rule that might
have been, citrus fruits with peels (the peel qualifier saves us from the
whole lemon curd issue...) make marmalades for example, gets tossed right
out the window. What is it with this %^%%$##$*ing language anyway. Can't
there just be a rule and have it followed? Oy.

And to drag this back to topic...however did ginger come to refer to
red/orange hair in the UK? I could understand blonde, but red?

bkd


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Thu Jun  1 08:40:54 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 04:40:54 -0400
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.044054.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: A. Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: jams, jellies, and preserves


>> And then there's conserve, which is 'jam made of fruits stewed in
>> sugar', according to AHD.  According to the labels at the supermarket,
>> it's 'continental extra jam', 'gently cooked in open pans', and without
>> exception 'imported from France'.
>>
>
>Perhaps the difference between preserves and conserve (besides French) is
pectin
>or gelatin, but this is just a guess based on Lynne's listing of label
locution.

I forgot about conserves in my original reply...and yes this mirrors my
experience with the products.

On a continuum you have jam/jelly at one end, with no discernible fruit type
element, other than the flavor, somewhere in the middle are preserves, which
have actual bits of fruit suspended somewhere in the medium, and conserves
at the other end, where, ideally, there is no medium, just fruit and sugar.

All of which leads me to the FDA website, which is the only dictionary that
matters as far as products on US supermarket shelves is concerned, and is
quite prescriptivist by nature:

 What guidance does FDA have for manufacturers of Fruit Jams (Preserves),
Jellies, Fruit Butters, and Marmalades?


 The standards of identity for jams and jellies (21 CFR 150) require that
these products be prepared by mixing not less than 45 parts by weight of
certain specified fruits (or fruit juice in the case of jelly), and 47 parts
by weight of other designated fruits, to each 55 parts by weight of sugar or
other optional nutritive carbohydrate sweetening ingredient. Only sufficient
pectin to compensate for a deficiency, if any, of the natural pectin content
of the particular fruit may be added to jams and jellies. The standards also
require that for both jams (preserves) and jellies, the finished product
must be concentrated to not less than 65 percent soluble solids.

Standards of identity have also been established for artificially sweetened
jams and jellies, and for these products the fruit ingredient must be not
less than 55 percent by weight of the finished food product.

Fruit butters are defined by the standard of identity as the smooth,
semisolid foods made from not less than five parts by weight of fruit
ingredient to each two parts by weight of nutritive carbohydrate sweetening
ingredient. As is the case with jams and jellies, only sufficient pectin may
be added to compensate for a deficiency, if any, of the natural pectin
content of the particular fruit. The fruit butter standard requires that the
finished product must be concentrated to not less than 43 percent soluble
solids.

There is no formal standard of identity for marmalades. However, to avoid
misbranding, a product labeled sweet orange marmalade should be prepared by
mixing at least 30 pounds of fruit (peel and juice) to each 70 pounds
sweetening ingredients. Sour or bitter (Seville) orange marmalade, lemon
marmalade, and lime marmalade should be prepared by mixing at least 25
pounds of fruit (peel and juice) to each 75 pounds of sweetening ingredient.
The amount of peel should not be in excess of the amounts normally
associated with fruit. The product should be concentrated to not less than
65 percent soluble solids.

Jams, jellies, and similar fruit products should, of course, be prepared
only from sound fruit. Decayed or decomposed fruits and insect-contaminated
fruits should be sorted out and discarded.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

You'll notice the conspicuous absence of conserves, though it's likely
considered a special case of jam, where the fruit content exceeds the minmum
by some absurd amount...

bkd


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Jun  1 09:49:13 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:49:13 +0100
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.104913.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bruce asks:

> And to drag this back to topic...however did ginger come to refer to
> red/orange hair in the UK? I could understand blonde, but red?

It's more usually used for what we'd call strawberry blonde--so it's reddish
blonde.  You also hear it a lot of cats--a ginger cat--which are not red but
might have a warm tinge to their blond fur.  People with really red hair are
more likely to be called 'red-headed'--Ginger Spice excluded (but then she
did have those blonde streaks).

Lynne


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Thu Jun  1 09:50:45 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 05:50:45 -0400
Subject: Monte Cristo sandwich
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.055045.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 01, 2000 12:35 AM
Subject: Monte Cristo sandwich


>MONTE CRISTO SANDWICH
>
>     From John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK:
>
>_Monte Cristo sandwich._  A sandwich composed of ham, chicken, and Swiss
>cheese enclosed in bread that is dipped in beaten egg and fried until
golden
>brown.  The origin of the name is not known.
>
>     From GOURMET, July 1968, pg. 53, col. 2:
>
>A: Perhaps named after the Count, here is
>     _Monte Cristo Sandwich_


The recipe is descended from the French Croque Monsieur, essentially as
described, ham and cheese sandwich dipped in egg batter and sauteed in
butter. Whence the evolution to Monte Cristo, I have no idea. The recipe
itself has undergone mutation as well in the intervening years...you now
sometimes find a Monte Cristo is nothing more than ham, turkey and cheese,
stacked on French toast and cooked.

Compare also to Croque Madame (frome Epicurious):
[KROHK mah-DAHM]
In France, this is a CROQUE MONSIEUR (toasted ham and cheese sandwich) with
the addition of a fried egg. In Britain and America, a croque madame simply
substitutes sliced chicken for the ham, with no sign of an egg.

[KROHK muhs-YOOR]
A French-style grilled ham and cheese sandwich that is dipped into beaten
egg before being saut?ed in butter. Croque monsieur is sometimes made in a
special sandwich-grilling iron consisting of two hinged metal plates, each
with two shell-shaped indentations. See also  CROQUE MADAME.


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Thu Jun  1 10:03:45 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:03:45 +0100
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
In-Reply-To: <006701bfcba2$da128310$8a70cec0@qwe.graphnet.com>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.110345.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 1/6/00 9:24 AM, Bruce Dykes wrote:

> What is it with this %^%%$##$*ing language anyway. Can't
> there just be a rule and have it followed? Oy.

Wouldn't that put a lot of us out of a job? :-)


>
> And to drag this back to topic...however did ginger come to refer to
> red/orange hair in the UK? I could understand blonde, but red?
>

According to my AH(E)D, definition 4 of "ginger" is "a strong brown".  Most
of the gingers (both "g"s are "hard", velar stops in Scots) I have met or
seen are on the brown side of red... not quite auburn, but not bright,
fiery, carroty red, either.  Sometimes I have misidentified such people as
having brown hair... perhaps it's the lack of sun.

The semantic extension from one shade of red to all shades are red seems
perfectly feasible to me, but I'm not a semanticist.  I'll ask and see if
the term, indeed, applies to those with the bright, orange blonde-side of
red.

BTW, didn't the Movie Star in Gilligan's Island have a darker shade or red?

--Aaron


________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
  --Death


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Thu Jun  1 10:06:23 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:06:23 +0100
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
In-Reply-To: <E12xRZ4-00043I-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.110623.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 1/6/00 10:49 AM, Lynne Murphy wrote:

> Bruce asks:
>
>> And to drag this back to topic...however did ginger come to refer to
>> red/orange hair in the UK? I could understand blonde, but red?
>
> It's more usually used for what we'd call strawberry blonde--so it's reddish
> blonde.  You also hear it a lot of cats--a ginger cat--which are not red but
> might have a warm tinge to their blond fur.  People with really red hair are
> more likely to be called 'red-headed'--Ginger Spice excluded (but then she
> did have those blonde streaks).
>
> Lynne
>


Okay.  So maybe it's an English-Scottish thing.  Maybe it's the different
interpretations from a male perspective and a female perspective.  Neither
of us being British helps.

--Aaron

________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
  --Death


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun  1 10:54:17 2000
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 03:54:17 -0700
Subject: Wall Street article-Closely held
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.035417.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the Wall Street Journal article of May 30, "No
longer just eggheads, linguists leap to the net," that
Allan informed us about, the term "closely held" is
used to describe most of the e-businesses mentioned.
Does anyone have any ideas about its meaning as used
in the article:

   "...tripled his income by joining closely held
Lexeme..."
"Ten of the 30 employees at closely held Cymfony Inc.
...have linguistics Ph.D.'s."
"Closely held AnswerLogic, Inc....is hiring and
training ...'language lovers'..."
"...recently took a job at closely held BeVocal
Inc...."



=====
Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English & Linguistics
and University Editor
Department of English, Hampton University
Hampton, VA 23668
Office:(757)727-5437; Fax:(757)727-5421; home:(757)851-5773
e-mail: mlee303 at yahoo.com   or     margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun  1 11:16:39 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 07:16:39 -0400
Subject: metadata.
In-Reply-To: <3935CCF3.365E49F9@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.071639.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 31 May 2000, Thomas Paikeday wrote:

> Doesn't anyone on the list watch "Who wants to be a millionaire?"
> I just watched today's show a couple of hours after the event and I am looking
> forward to seeing Fred Shapiro in the hotseat tomorrow. Best wishes to Fred.

First of all, I don't admit that the fool on tonight's show is me.
Shapiro is a common name, and there may be more than one Fred Shapiro from
New Haven.  Secondly, I happen to have inside information that the fool on
tonight's show does not get on the hot seat, that he doesn't even come
close to winning any of the "fastest finger" rounds.

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Thu Jun  1 11:32:33 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 07:32:33 -0400
Subject: Wall Street article-Closely held
In-Reply-To: <20000601105417.3950.qmail@web1403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.073233.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Margaret Lee wrote:

>Does anyone have any ideas about its meaning as used
>in the article:

See close corporation under corporation in Black's Law Dict.

Bethany


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun  1 12:53:50 2000
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 08:53:50 -0400
Subject: Wall Street article-Closely held
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.085350.0400.>

This is a common term in business journalism: "closely held" simply
means that there is no publicly-traded stock; the owners control all of
it.

Margaret Lee wrote:

> In the Wall Street Journal article of May 30, "No
> longer just eggheads, linguists leap to the net," that
> Allan informed us about, the term "closely held" is
> used to describe most of the e-businesses mentioned.
> Does anyone have any ideas about its meaning as used
> in the article:
>
>    "...tripled his income by joining closely held
> Lexeme..."
> "Ten of the 30 employees at closely held Cymfony Inc.
> ...have linguistics Ph.D.'s."
> "Closely held AnswerLogic, Inc....is hiring and
> training ...'language lovers'..."
> "...recently took a job at closely held BeVocal
> Inc...."
>
> =====
> Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of English & Linguistics
> and University Editor
> Department of English, Hampton University
> Hampton, VA 23668
> Office:(757)727-5437; Fax:(757)727-5421; home:(757)851-5773
> e-mail: mlee303 at yahoo.com   or     margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com/

--
____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
tel:  (740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
(740) 593-2818


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun  1 12:59:12 2000
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 08:59:12 -0400
Subject: ginger-haired
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.085912.0400.>

I've heard "gingy" [j^Inj^i] for a red-head among Jews; I believe it's
current in Israel.

-- db
____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
tel:  (740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
(740) 593-2818


From AGCOM.EGREGORY at TAEXGW.TAMU.EDU  Thu Jun  1 13:43:14 2000
From: AGCOM.EGREGORY at TAEXGW.TAMU.EDU (Elizabeth Gregory)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 08:43:14 -0500
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.084314.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From the _Better Homes and Gardens New Cookbook_, Revised Edition, Eighth Printing, 1980. (Perhaps a little more understandable than FDA. I'm sorry I can't find my USDA Food Presevation Handbook.)

Quote begins:
Jellies are made from fruit juice, are clear, and firm enough to hold their shape.

Jams contain slightly crushed or ground fruit and are usually softer than jelly.

Conserves are jams made from a mixture of fruits, usually including citrus fruit; raisins and nuts are often added.

Marmalade is a tender jelly with pieces of fruit distributed throughout; it commonly contains citrus fruits.

Preserves are whole fruits or large pieces of fruit in a thick, jellied syrup.
Quote ends

In the recipes that follow, some jellies, jams, and marmalades are made with added pectin--others rely on sugar, cooking temperature, and/or pectin already present in the fruit for the jelling action. However, no conserve recipes mention added pectin. There are no recipes for preserves.

Elizabeth Gregory
e-gregory at tamu.edu


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Thu Jun  1 13:57:24 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 08:57:24 -0500
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.085724.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To all who signed the get-well card that Dick Bailey circulated at ADS
Chicago:

I thank you very much.  Until I got the card, I was feeling quite depressed
at having to default on the paper I was scheduled top give.  Your card
warmed my heart and caused the depression to give way to regret.
Thanks forevermore.

Bob


From bspencer at UMICH.EDU  Thu Jun  1 14:30:40 2000
From: bspencer at UMICH.EDU (Bruce H. Spencer)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:30:40 -0400
Subject: Ich bin ein Berliner
In-Reply-To: <200006010355.XAA29647@easycomeeasygo.mr.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.103040.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I haven't read the article mentioned earlier, but this story isn't
entirely a myth. Kennedy's statement was not 'grammatically correct'.
German does not use indefinite articles before professions, nationalities,
or cities of origin: Ich bin Professor; Ich bin Amerikaner; Ich bin
Hamburger; etc. Using indefinite articles in these types of constructions
is a common mistake of English speakers learning German.

The pastry in question is very similar to a doughnut with a cream filling,
not jelly.  'Jelly doughnut' isn't a perfect translation, but it's not
totally off the mark.  The problem is that 'Berliner' are not called
'Berliner' in Berlin.  The residents of Berlin call these things
'Pfannkuchen' the rest of Germany calls them 'Berliner'.  Since Kennedy
was speaking in Berlin, I suspect that many people probably didn't think
of the humorous interpretation until after the fact.  For what it's
worth, the phrase 'Ich bin ein Berliner' is very popular in Berlin; I've
seen it used in advertisements to market things as being true to the
spirit of the city. You can also buy postcards with a cartoon drawing of a
'Berliner' (I mean the pastry) with 'Ich bin ein Berliner' in the speech
bubble.


___________________________________________________________________
Bruce H. Spencer
Germanic Languages and Literatures      Office: (734) 764-5365
3110 Modern Languages Building          Fax:    (734) 763-6557
University of Michigan                  E-mail: bspencer at umich.edu
Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1275
___________________________________________________________________


From Sallie.Lemons at MSDW.COM  Thu Jun  1 15:04:38 2000
From: Sallie.Lemons at MSDW.COM (Sallie Lemons)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:04:38 -0400
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.110438.0400.>

Minor comment/major enthusiasm:  I adore ginger marmalade. I found it
first in Mass. (Stockbridge area).

Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:

> >...  Marmalade comes in orange, lemon, and grapefruit varieties.
>
> And lime and tangerine and ginger...
>
> Rima


From Sallie.Lemons at MSDW.COM  Thu Jun  1 15:05:54 2000
From: Sallie.Lemons at MSDW.COM (Sallie Lemons)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:05:54 -0400
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.110554.0400.>

What about Ginger Baker??? Did he have really red hair or am I hallucinating?

Lynne Murphy wrote:

> Bruce asks:
>
> > And to drag this back to topic...however did ginger come to refer to
> > red/orange hair in the UK? I could understand blonde, but red?
>
> It's more usually used for what we'd call strawberry blonde--so it's reddish
> blonde.  You also hear it a lot of cats--a ginger cat--which are not red but
> might have a warm tinge to their blond fur.  People with really red hair are
> more likely to be called 'red-headed'--Ginger Spice excluded (but then she
> did have those blonde streaks).
>
> Lynne


From Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM  Thu Jun  1 15:13:35 2000
From: Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM (Joe Pickett)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:13:35 -0400
Subject: Ich bin ein Berliner
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.111335.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Having eaten a few Berliners myself, my preferred literal translation of
Kennedy's remark has always been

I am a creampuff.

It at least makes watching those old newsreels of his speech more fun.

Joe Pickett
Executive Editor
Houghton Mifflin






"Bruce H. Spencer" <bspencer at UMICH.EDU> on 06/01/2000 10:30:40 AM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Joe Pickett/Trade/hmco)
Subject:  Re: Ich bin ein Berliner



I haven't read the article mentioned earlier, but this story isn't
entirely a myth. Kennedy's statement was not 'grammatically correct'.
German does not use indefinite articles before professions, nationalities,
or cities of origin: Ich bin Professor; Ich bin Amerikaner; Ich bin
Hamburger; etc. Using indefinite articles in these types of constructions
is a common mistake of English speakers learning German.

The pastry in question is very similar to a doughnut with a cream filling,
not jelly.  'Jelly doughnut' isn't a perfect translation, but it's not
totally off the mark.  The problem is that 'Berliner' are not called
'Berliner' in Berlin.  The residents of Berlin call these things
'Pfannkuchen' the rest of Germany calls them 'Berliner'.  Since Kennedy
was speaking in Berlin, I suspect that many people probably didn't think
of the humorous interpretation until after the fact.  For what it's
worth, the phrase 'Ich bin ein Berliner' is very popular in Berlin; I've
seen it used in advertisements to market things as being true to the
spirit of the city. You can also buy postcards with a cartoon drawing of a
'Berliner' (I mean the pastry) with 'Ich bin ein Berliner' in the speech
bubble.


___________________________________________________________________
Bruce H. Spencer
Germanic Languages and Literatures      Office: (734) 764-5365
3110 Modern Languages Building          Fax:    (734) 763-6557
University of Michigan                  E-mail: bspencer at umich.edu
Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1275
___________________________________________________________________


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  1 15:49:00 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:49:00 EDT
Subject: metadata?
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.114900.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 5/31/2000 6:48:43 PM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes:

<< Does the prior generic existence of a word preclude registering it as a
trademark and thus reserving it for that purpose from then on? >>

The short answer is "yes." You can't, for example, register "refrigerator" or
"bicycle."


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun  1 16:01:31 2000
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:01:31 -0400
Subject: Ich bin ein Berliner
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.120131.0400.>

In my first wife's Bavarian household the pastry was known as a Berliner
Krapfen, a pfannekuche being what we'd call a crepe.

-- Reclams Etymologisches Woeterbuc defines Krapfen as "Schmalzgebaeck"
which I take to mean "deep fat fried"
____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
tel:  (740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
(740) 593-2818


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Jun  1 15:59:59 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:59:59 -0400
Subject: metadata?
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.115959.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ron is quite right about the registrability of a term in prior generic
use.  However, that does not preclude the use of common vocabulary,
such as apple, when it is applied to something which it does not
otherwise or normally describe, such as fruit.  This important concept
allowed for the application of the word apple in the context of
computers.  I suppose one could register the name "dictionary" for a
new and distinct variety of apple (the fruit, not the computer).

Regards,
David Barnhart

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Thu Jun  1 16:54:44 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:54:44 -0400
Subject: metadata?
In-Reply-To: <79.4d15e22.2667dfec@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.125444.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 1 Jun 2000 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> In a message dated 5/31/2000 6:48:43 PM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes:
>
> << Does the prior generic existence of a word preclude registering it as a
> trademark and thus reserving it for that purpose from then on? >>
>
> The short answer is "yes." You can't, for example, register "refrigerator" or
> "bicycle."

About four or five years ago, there was a major brouhaha when some
publisher tried to trademark Bear, a common descriptor for burly, hairy,
huggable bearlike gay men.

Anyhow, I know the publisher had gotten fairly far along in the
process, and there was hue and cry, but then I haven't heard anything of
it since, so I'm assuming the publisher lost, since bear is still used
unencumbered by TM language.


--- Steve K.


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Jun  1 17:15:51 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:15:51 -0400
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.131551.0400.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

"Most of the world's 6,000-plus languages will have died out by the end of the
century, experts predicted yesterday. Linguists issued fresh warnings about the perilous
position of the thousands of languages spoken mainly by adults but increasingly rarely
by their children and grandchildren."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/UK/Science/2000-05/languages300500.shtml

--

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at monickels.com
http://www.monickels.com/
AIM: monickels


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Jun  1 17:23:58 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:23:58 -0700
Subject: Ich bin ein Berliner
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.102358.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Bruce H. Spencer" wrote:
>
> The pastry in question is very similar to a doughnut with a cream filling,
> not jelly.  'Jelly doughnut' isn't a perfect translation, but it's not

Hmm, I'm pretty sure the Berliners in Freiburg (im Breisgau) were jelly-filled.
Maybe it's a regional thing?


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Jun  1 17:29:20 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:29:20 -0400
Subject: NWAV abstract deadline
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.132920.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Colleagues:

Not to trouble you, but I remind you that today is the deadline for the
submission of abstracts for the October 2000 NWAV conference (partly
sponsored by our own ADS) at Michigan State.

Go to
http://www.nwav.lin.msu.edu
for the full poop.

dInIs

Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun  1 17:29:42 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:29:42 -0400
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
In-Reply-To: <-1252257149gbarrett@monickels.com> from "Grant Barrett" at Jun
 01, 2000 01:15:51 PM
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.132942.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> "Most of the world's 6,000-plus languages will have died out by the end of the
> century, experts predicted yesterday. Linguists issued fresh warnings about the perilous
                             ^^^^^^^^^^

Yes, they predicted this yesterday. Two weeks ago, linguists thought
that there would be a growth market in books written in Algonquian,
Breton, Ainu, etc. etc.

Jesse Sheidlower


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Thu Jun  1 18:49:09 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:49:09 -0700
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
In-Reply-To: <-1252257149gbarrett@monickels.com>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.114909.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To subscribe to the Endangered Languages list, send an e-mail to

Majordomo at carmen.murdoch.edu.au

In the body of the e-mail, write

subscribe endangered-languages-l

followed by your e-mail (in the same line).

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
Grant Barrett

"Most of the world's 6,000-plus languages will have died out by the end of
the
century, experts predicted yesterday. Linguists issued fresh warnings about
the perilous
position of the thousands of languages spoken mainly by adults but
increasingly rarely
by their children and grandchildren."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/UK/Science/2000-05/languages300500.shtml


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Jun  1 19:05:40 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:05:40 -0400
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.150540.0400.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

On Thursday, June 1, 2000, Grant Barrett <gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM> wrote:
>"Most of the world's 6,000-plus languages will have died out by the end of the
>century, experts predicted yesterday. Linguists issued fresh warnings about the
perilous
>position of the thousands of languages spoken mainly by adults but increasingly
rarely
>by their children and grandchildren."
>
>http://www.independent.co.uk/news/UK/Science/2000-05/languages300500.shtml

I meant to comment when I sent the first email, but I had to go do actual work.

The idea of predicting this sort of thing to me seems at the same time useful and
irritating. I dig the idea of preserving living languages and I think it proper to
sound the alarm, but on the other hand, the original Independent article has been taken
in other forums to indicate that the entire world will speak only English, Spanish or
Mandarin by 2100. This is, of course, not justified by the article or the original
prediction.

This kind of mis-representation of a simple prediction is constantly on my mind
lately as I look into the 1990 New Madrid earthquake prediction. I'm not finished yet,
but the connected dots from the simple first statement to the final non-denouement of
an unfulfilled prediction is a prime example of how concerned professionals ought to
think twice about making these kinds of statements. It's the only way to avoid
misunderstanding, I think.

--

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at monickels.com
http://www.monickels.com/
AIM: monickels


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  1 20:59:07 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:59:07 EDT
Subject: metadata?
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.165907.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is what I've heard at meetings of the Dictionary Society, from those who
ought to know:

Even though you can register a name as a trademark, you cannot prevent people
from using that name in discourse, or even putting it in a dictionary. The
registration means only that others can't use that name to make money by
using your name for their product. For example, the Coca-Cola company can
prevent a grocery story from adverising Pepsi as "Coke," but it cannot stop
people in the southeastern U.S. from calling a Pepsi or other soft drink a
coke, or co-cola, or whatever. Trademark has to do with trade; conversation
has to do with free speech.

Companies want their trademarks to be widely known, which leads to the
likelihood that a trademark will become a generic term: Kleenex and Xerox,
for example. So the lawyers for the companies are vigilant. They send out
threatening letters to makers of dictionaries, for example, if a dictionary
dares to say that a trademark has a generic use. Pusillanimous lexicographers
sometimes retreat; we heard a story not too long ago about "Crackerjack" in
the venerable Dictionary of American English. But no dictionary, from what
I've heard, has ever actually been sued for reporting generic usage of a
trademark, much less lost a suit.

So if you want to use "metadata" not to sell a product of your own but just
to discuss something, ain't no law can stop you. - Allan Metcalf


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  1 20:59:06 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:59:06 EDT
Subject: Ich bin ein Berliner
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.165906.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<< German does not use indefinite articles before professions, nationalities,
or cities of origin: Ich bin Professor; Ich bin Amerikaner; Ich bin
Hamburger; etc. Using indefinite articles in these types of constructions
is a common mistake of English speakers learning German. >>

I remember that rule too. But Reinhold Aman's article, extensively
documented, says that "ein" is an allowable variant. I hope Jerry finds the
citation soon. - Allan Metcalf


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun  1 21:05:44 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:05:44 -0400
Subject: metadata?
In-Reply-To: <11.47843e3.2668289b@aol.com> from "AAllan@AOL.COM" at Jun 01,
 2000 04:59:07 PM
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.170544.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
> Companies want their trademarks to be widely known, which leads to the
> likelihood that a trademark will become a generic term: Kleenex and Xerox,
> for example. So the lawyers for the companies are vigilant. They send out
> threatening letters to makers of dictionaries, for example, if a dictionary
> dares to say that a trademark has a generic use. Pusillanimous lexicographers
> sometimes retreat; we heard a story not too long ago about "Crackerjack" in
> the venerable Dictionary of American English. But no dictionary, from what
> I've heard, has ever actually been sued for reporting generic usage of a
> trademark, much less lost a suit.

But dictionary companies get threatening letters from lawyers all
the time, and these must be responded to, often with research. This
is a real pain.

Companies all the time have statements like the one quoted here
before--"So-and-so is a trademark and you cannot blah blah blah"--
and these statements are, in general, legally meaningless [I am
not a lawyer, but I'm told thus by those who are]. Still, if you
know that by including so-and-so in your dictionary, or using it
generically in published writing, you'll get a huge stack of
legal documents FedExed--whoops, sent--to you, it does have a
certain chilling effect.

Jesse Sheidlower


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Thu Jun  1 21:21:57 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:21:57 -0400
Subject: metadata?
In-Reply-To: <200006012105.RAA21811@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.172157.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 1 Jun 2000 jester at PANIX.COM wrote:

> Companies all the time have statements like the one quoted here
> before--"So-and-so is a trademark and you cannot blah blah blah"--
> and these statements are, in general, legally meaningless [I am
> not a lawyer, but I'm told thus by those who are]. Still, if you
> know that by including so-and-so in your dictionary, or using it
> generically in published writing, you'll get a huge stack of
> legal documents FedExed--whoops, sent--to you, it does have a
> certain chilling effect.

Which relates to the dicey legal issue of entering words like
"McJob," which McDonalds does not look kindly on.

Didn't Hormel lose the suit when they took on the Muppets for using an
evil pigbeast name Spa'am?

--- Steve K.


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Thu Jun  1 21:14:28 2000
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:14:28 -0400
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.171428.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:49 AM 6/1/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>To subscribe to the Endangered Languages list, send an e-mail to
>
>Majordomo at carmen.murdoch.edu.au
>
>In the body of the e-mail, write
>
>subscribe endangered-languages-l
>
>followed by your e-mail (in the same line).
>
>Benjamin Barrett
>gogaku at ix.netcom.com
>

Is there a *daily digest* option, or if no one knows then maybe a URL for
this listserv where one can find out?



Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Jun  1 22:35:47 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:35:47 -0600
Subject: Ich bin ein Berliner
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.163547.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here is the reference for ?Ich bin ein Berliner?:

Reinhold Aman: ?Debunking Kennedy?s ?I Am A Jelly-Filled Doughnut?.?
_Maledicta_ (subtitle: _The International Journal Of Verbal Aggression_),
vol. XI, 1990-1995 [sic], pp.63-64.

---If  anyone is interested in subscribing to Aman?s _Maledicta_, the
address is: Maledicta Press, P.O. Box 14123, Santa Rosa, CA 95402-6123,
USA. --- Aman is the world?s foremost expert on the language of verbal
aggression. And although highly interesting, his publication _Maledicta_ is
not for readers who object to X-rated material.

---Here is Aman?s article (not X-rated) on ?Ich bin ein Berliner?:
(removed by list administrator)

-----That concludes Aman?s article.

--Gerald Cohen








gcohen at umr.edu


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Thu Jun  1 23:02:30 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:02:30 -0700
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
In-Reply-To: <200006012114.RAA07297@is2.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.160230.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I belonged a couple of years ago, it had a very low volume. A *daily*
digest would probably be more e-mails than individual e-mails.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
Gregory {Greg} Downing

>To subscribe to the Endangered Languages list, send an e-mail to

Is there a *daily digest* option, or if no one knows then maybe a URL for
this listserv where one can find out?


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Jun  1 23:08:53 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:08:53 -0700
Subject: Ich bin ein Berliner
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.160853.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gerald Cohen wrote:
>
> Here is the reference for ?Ich bin ein Berliner?:
>
> Reinhold Aman: ?Debunking Kennedy?s ?I Am A Jelly-Filled Doughnut?.?
> _Maledicta_ (subtitle: _The International Journal Of Verbal Aggression_),
> vol. XI, 1990-1995 [sic], pp.63-64.
>
...
>      ?No intelligent native speaker of German tittered in Berlin when J.F.
> K. spoke, just as no native speaker of German, or one who does know this
> language, would titter if someone said ?Ich bin ein Wiener? or ?Hamburger?
> or ?Frankfurter.? Only a chuckling chucklehead would translate ?Ich bin ein
> Wiener? (?I am a male Viennese?) as ?I am a sausage? (or ?penis? or
> ?ineffectual person? or ?jerk? or ?very serious student?) Only a tittering
> twit would translate ?Ich bin ein Hamburger? (?a male person from Hamburg?)
> as ?I am a meat patty? (or ?hobo? or ?beggar? or ?scarred prizefighter? or
> ?inferior racing dog? or ?mixture of mud and skin nutrients?).  And only a
> babbling bubblebrain would translate ?Ich bin ein Frankfurter? (?a male
> person from Frankfurt?) as ?I am a long, smoked reddish sausage?...
>

or "hot dog" which name comes from a caption of a cartoon written by Tad
Dorgan...

(Sorry Barry, nothing like combining as many urban legends as possible.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  2 00:52:08 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:52:08 EDT
Subject: Mexican Pizza
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.205208.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    "Mexican Pizza" is not in the OED (revising beginning with "M"?) and not
in Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA.  It's a standard item at Taco Bell, for example.
It's probably an "American" dish.
    I've now gone through GOURMET 1941-1974.
    From GOURMET, March 1974, pg. 100, col. 1:

Q: At El Rancho No. 1 in Austin, Texas, I enjoyed a dish called Mexican
pizza.  Could you get the recipe for me?
SANDRA BAKER
CARROLLTON, TEXAS
A: A happy blend of culinary traditions is this
     _Mexican Pizza El Rancho No. 1_
     Make the pizza dough: Into a bowl sift together 3 cups flour and 1/2
teaspoon each of sugar, baking powder, and salt.  Make a well in the center
and stir in 3/4 cup milk combined with 2 eggs.  Combine the mixture well and
form it into a ball.  Let the dough rest, covered, for at least 15 minutes.
     Make a meat topping: In a skillet saute 1 pound ground round steak in
1/2 stick or 1/4 cup butter for 5 minutes.  Add 1 stalk of celery, 1 small
green pepper, 1 tomato, and 1/2 onion, all diced, and salt and pepper to
taste.  Saute the mixture for 15 minutes, or until the meat and vegetables
are cooked.  Keep the mixture warm.
     Make El Rancho sauce: In a blender put 1 stalk of celery, 1 small green
pepper, 1 tomato, 1/2 onion, and 2 garlic cloves, all chopped, 1 tablespoon
tomato sauce, and 1/2 teaspoon each of oregano and ground cuminseed and blend
the mixture until it is smooth.  Transfer the mixture to a saucepan, add 1
3/4 cups chicken stock (January 1974) or chicken broth, and bring the mixture
to a boil.  Stir in 2 tablespoons flour mixed with 1/4 cup chicken stock, add
salt and pepper to taste, and simmer the sauce for 10 minutes.  Kepp the
sauce warm.
     Divide the dough into 6 pieces.  Roll out 1 of the pieces into an 8-inch
round on a lightly floured surface.  Fry the round in hot deep oil (360
degrees F), turning it once, until it is golden.  Transfer the round to paper
towels to drain.  Continue to roll out and fry the remaining dough in the
same manner.  Arrange the rounds on an ovenproof platter and top them with a
layer of the meat mixture and the sauce.  Sprinkle each round with 2
tablespoons grated Monterey Jack cheese and 1 tablespoon freshly grated
Parmesan cheese and top it with 1 teaspoon sour cream.  Heat the pizzas in a
preheated slow oven (300 degrees F) for 5 minutes, or until the cheese is
melted and the pizzas are hot.  Garnish each pizza with a thinly sliced onion
ring, a green olive, and sliced _jalapeno_ chili peppers.

   T.B. (Taco Bell, not tuberculosis) does it a little differently.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  2 00:52:10 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:52:10 EDT
Subject: Highball; Bloody Bull; Caipirinha
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.205210.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     Half hour to Regis!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
HIGHBALL

     This is from THE OFFICIAL MIXER'S MANUAL (New York, 1934) by Patrick
Gavin Duffy, pg. VIII:

     It is one of my fondest hopes that the highball will again take its
place as the leading American drink.  I admit to being prejudiced about
this--it was I who first brought the highball to America, in 1895.  Although
the distinction is claimed by the Parker House in Boston, I was finally given
due credit for this innovation in the _New York Times_ of not many years ago.

     I checked the New York Times Personal Name Index.  I didn't look at "P.
G. Duffy" (there was another).  "Patrick Gavin Duffy" turned up only one
hit--a review of this and other drink books, such as THE SAVOY COCKTAIL BOOK
(recently reprinted).  From THE NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW, 11 February 1934,
pg. 17, col. 2:

     "The Official Mixer's Manual," by Patrick Gavin Duffy, whose talents as
a concocter of noble beverages are widely and admiringly known, is a book to
keep on the consecrated shelf where Professor Jerry Thomas's immortal "Bon
Vivant's Companion," with an introduction by Herbert Asbury, has long held
the place of honor.  Mr. Duffy's book is arranged in loose-leaf form, bound
in strong voers, and indexed so skillfully that its thousands of drinks (No
Bloody Mary--ed.) can easily be found.  A bartender of the great tradition
himself, Mr. Duffy has served many American notables at the Ashland House.
One of his claims to fame is that he introduced the highball to America.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BLOODY BULL

     From GOURMET, February 1972, pg. 1, col. 2:

     _Hitting the Bull's Eye_
SIRS:  Here is a variation on your Bull Shot recipe ("Gourmet's Menus,"
October, 1971).  I've known people who do not like Bull Shots or Bloody Marys
but come back for seconds when Bloody Bulls are being served.

     _Bloody Bull_
     For each drink put 2 ounces each of tomato juice and beef broth in a
cocktail shaker with 1 1/2 ounces vodka.  Squeeze in the juice of a lemon
wedge and drop in the lemon.  Add a dash of Worcestershire sauce and salt and
pepper to taste.  Cover the shaker and shake the mixture until it is
thoroughly blended.  Strain it into an Old Fashioned glass over ice cubes.
RAY H. WHALEN
WILLOWDALE, ONTARIO, CANADA

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CAIPIRINHA (continued)

     From GOURMET, "Brazil" travel holiday, December 1973, pg. 136, col. 2:

     I began my first lunch with the traditional _batida_, a drink made of
the Brazilian white rum _cachaca_, which I find appealing.  In the course of
my stay I tried most varieties of _batida_: _de limao_ (lime or lemon),
_coco_ (coconut milk), _abacaxi_ (pineapple), _maracuja_ (passion fruit),
_tamarindo_ (tamarind), _goiaba_ (guava), and _tangerina_ (tangerine).  I
found the lime _batida_ the most refreshing and usually not oversweetened.
The preparation is simple enough--lime juice, ice, sugar, and _cachaca_
shaken thoroughly and strained into a small glass.  No ice is added to the
glass.  It is often difficult to get ice for a drink; presumably, if the
drink is served cold, that is enough.  I prefer the other popular Brazilian
rum cocktail, _caipirinha_, which includes tiny pieces of cut-up lime, skin
and all.  The limes have a wonderful flavor.  I was also much taken by the
bottled soft drink _guarana_, made from a shrub, slightly tart and very
refreshing in Salvador's heat.


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Thu Jun  1 23:04:17 2000
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 19:04:17 -0400
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.190417.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I suggest one shouldn't come down too hard on the professionals. Their
"predictions" have a way of becoming considerably garbled by the time
they're seen in print. Anyone remember the "Rumor Clinic' the B'Nai
B'Rith (forgive the spelling, it's from memory and I ain't Jewish) used
to put on?

Bob

Grant Barrett wrote:
>
> > an unfulfilled prediction is a prime example of how concerned professionals ought to> think twice about making these kinds of statements. It's the only way to avoid misunderstanding, I think.
>
> --
>
> Grant Barrett
> gbarrett at monickels.com
> http://www.monickels.com/
> AIM: monickels


From anitagf at MAIL2.GIS.NET  Fri Jun  2 01:48:45 2000
From: anitagf at MAIL2.GIS.NET (Anita G. Foster)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:48:45 -0400
Subject: Etymology of Rap
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000527195258.00b50320@mailandnews.com>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.214845.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For more information on rappin'  - "When I first heard the expression
'rappin'' or 'runnin' a rap,' it had a sexual connotation.  The object of
the rap was to 'get a girl's nose open,' or 'get into her pants.'  The
expression was used in other ways, too, as described in Reality 66."


For additional background see pages 210 to 213 in Herbert L. Foster's
"Ribbin', Jivin', and Playin the Dozens:  The Persistent Dilemma In Our
Schools."  published by Herbert L. Foster Associates, Inc. 1990.  In
Ribbin', I describe, discuss, and explain black male street corner language
and behavior as it is played out in our schools.  Because so many teachers,
black and white, do not understand the black male students' language and
behavior, he is too often referred to special education and caught up in
discipline problems.  see: http:/www.gse.buffalo.edu/fas.Foster/


At 07:56 PM 05/27/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>What is the origin of the term Rap?  The earliest meaning I know of is a
>man's conversation with women in order to "put the moves on her," but as
>far as I know, even that definition is not very old.
>
>Jordan Rich
>Independent Scholar
>http://funkmasterj.tripod.com


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  2 02:23:58 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 22:23:58 EDT
Subject: nine-spot problem & boxed-in thinking
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.222358.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In response to Jesse's query (I'll send more to anyone who asks for it):

The language columnist William Safire, in a May 1995 article in the _New York
Times Magazine_, traces one strand of the origin of the phrase THINK OUTSIDE
THE BOX to "a brain teaser used in 1984 by Development Dimensions
International, management consultants." However, this is the same "brain
teaser" discussed in the preface to Edward Prestwood's 1984 book, _The
Creative Writer's Phrase-Finder_ (Palm Springs: ETC Publications); Prestwood
seeks to explain the difficulties people have in finding solutions to
seemingly difficult problems, and introduces (page vii) the now-famous
nine-dot puzzle, in which the responder is asked to connect all of nine dots
that are arranged in the shape of a box (i.e., in three rows of three dots
each) using only four straight lines, without retracing. As Prestwood notes,
the puzzle cannot be solved at all unless one draws the lines "outside the
boundaries established by the dots"--that is, one must respond unconventionall
y, thinking outside (of) the box formed by the nine dots to find the
(actually quite simple) solution.
     Prestwood does not claim to have invented either the puzzle or the
metaphor, and he indicates (page vii) that he presented it to other persons
and discussed it with them for some time before his book was written ("Some
people have remarked that the given solution is cheating"). Prestwood?s book
was aimed at a small audience (namely, those who were interested enough in
creative writing to buy his book), and it was published by a little-known
publisher. It is thus extremely unlikely that the American pubic at large
could have learned about the nine-dot puzzle and associated phrase
"[thinking] outside . . . the dots" from Prestwood's book. Rather, the phrase
would have had its source in previous (unidentified) usage which Prestwood
(and Development Dimensions International) appropriated, as did many other
persons who came upon the phrase independently.
     The puzzle itself is quite old. The puzzle appears in the following
places: (1). Sam Loyd, CYCLOPEDIA OF PUZZLES. New York: The Lamb Publishing
Company, 1914.
p301. (2). Gerald Lynton Kaufman, THE BOOK OF MODERN PUZZLES. NEW YORK,
DOVER, 1940. p46. [Kaufman gives a hint by placing a tenth dot outside the
nine dots] (3).  J. Travers, A PUZZLE-MINE: PUZZLES COLLECTED FROM THE WORKS
OF THE LATE HENRY
ERNEST DUDENEY. London: Thomas Nelson and Sons, 1951, p66. [Travers uses nine
stars rather than balls or dots. Travers attributes the origin of the puzzles
in his book to Dudeney, "the 'Puzzle King', . . . 'the most ingenious brain in
England'," who published a series of puzzles in the magazine BLIGHTY "during
and after the war of 1914-1918." The appearance of Loyd's CYCOPEDIA in 1914
suggests that he may have a claim for having originated this puzzle. Or
perhaps both stole it from some earlier source?]
     The popular writer Jim Fixx (who is perhaps best known for his books on
fitness & running--and who died of a heart attack while jogging) also
published the puzzle (without attribution) in a book that I took back to the
library without noting its title, but as I recall it was published in the
1960s or 1970s.
     David Barnhart writes that he finds the phrase in 1975. I hope he will
share the particular cite with the rest of us. My own earliest cites are
somewhat later, e.g., in the popular business magazine _Fortune_, 6 February
1984, in an article concerning C. William Gray, President of Gadall, Inc., of
Philadelphia, Ohio: "Gray says he tells his managers to be 'cross-functional'
and to 'think outside the box' of their own specialty" (page 114/3). It
appears in New York City in 1985, spoken by a high-school principal, Victor
Herbert, who is quoted in the _New York Times_ as having said, "We need to
think outside of the box to find radical solutions to a radical problem" (18
March, sec. B, page 10/5). One finds it in the magazine _Inc._ in September,
1985, in an article quoting the Visalia, California, city manager, Ted
Gaebler: "More important, he stresses, government officials must learn to
take risks and seek profits, 'think outside the box,' avoid paperwork and
regulations" (page 55). It is recorded in early 1986 in a letter to the
editor of the trade journal _Advertising Age_, written by an advertising
executive, Jean DeLong Custer, of Cedar Rapids, Iowa, who said, "Phil has
always liked to 'think outside the box'. He is the most innovative media
maven I've encountered" (20 February, page 33). It appears in March 1987 in
the trade journal Indiana Business (page 46), in an article about Thomas D.
Bell, Sr., president of the Hudson Institute of Indianapolis: " . . . when
Bell talks of 'getting outside the box' he's referring to the limits of
thought that many of us impose upon ourselves."


From bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET  Thu Jun  1 19:56:16 2000
From: bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET (Bernard W. Kane)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:56:16 -0400
Subject: preserve us
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.155616.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And then there was the line by (what) famous jazz musician, "Mus' be jelly/
'Cause jam don'  shake like that"?

Bernie Kane
word-finder


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Fri Jun  2 03:38:52 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:38:52 -0700
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
In-Reply-To: <006701bfcba2$da128310$8a70cec0@qwe.graphnet.com>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUN.2000.203852.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Ginger marmalade!?! Oh frabjous day! I now have a quest...
>
>And so, with the inclusion of ginger marmalade, any simple rule that might
>have been, citrus fruits with peels (the peel qualifier saves us from the
>whole lemon curd issue...)

After examining the label, it's Ginger Marmalade by E. Waldo Ward &
Son.  Ingredients: sugar, ginger root, water, pectin, and lemon
juice.  I, too, had previously thought the difference between
marmalade and preserves was the citrus & rind vs. other pieces of
fruit.

Rima


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  2 04:23:08 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 00:23:08 EDT
Subject: TRUE--the man's magazine
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.002308.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    This is the first time that I've gone through "TRUE-The Man's Magazine."
It looks like it was a competitor of ESQUIRE and PLAYBOY.
     I read the year 1966; popular stories were on sports and the Vietnam
War.  TRUE featured some important writers, such as Isaac Asimov.  There
wasn't a column on Food & Drink, but late-night king Johnny Carson did write
at least one article on drinks.
    The NYPL has holdings from 1960, but the publication began about a few
volumes earlier.
    "Report from Viet Nam" was written by Malcolm W. Browne.  April 1966, pg.
39, is: "'SORRY ABOUT THAT' This is the best-known phrase in a new GI lingo
that's more sophisticated--and cynical--than the old soldier talk of World
Wars I and II."  Terms mentioned include:

dustoff (a helicopter ambulance)
huey (helicopter)
pucker factor (degree of fear)
OP (outpost)
music (water)

     I still haven't found "the whole nine yards," but it may be here.
     Send me any opinions you have on TRUE, or any similar publications that
I might not be aware of.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
WHO WANTS TO WATCH "WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE?"

    I got every question--without the choices.  One contestant couldn't
identify "round up the usual suspects" with the film classic CASABLANCA.  She
thought for what seemed like twenty minutes. Goofy music played in the
background.  You had to know stupid things for the show, like tv sitcom
history and the birth dates of Julia Roberts and Christina Ricci.
    Fred Shapiro owes me an hour of my life!
    Wait a minute--was Fred Shapiro on the show??


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  2 06:47:27 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 02:47:27 EDT
Subject: Is ICJ at The Hague in the Netherlands? (off topic)
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.024727.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Maybe Fred Shapiro can answer this.
    One of the questions on WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE? a few hours ago
was "In what country is the Lockerbie trial taking place?"  The "correct"
answer was The Netherlands.  The trial is taking place at the International
Court of Justice, at The Hague.
    I visited there.  I was told that the ICJ is, technically, not in any
country.  The land belongs to the United Nations.  The ICJ is NOT in The
Netherlands.  True?
    Did Regis blow another one?


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Jun  2 09:47:56 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 05:47:56 -0400
Subject: TRUE--the man's magazine
In-Reply-To: <50.622f706.266890ac@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.054756.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 2 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    This is the first time that I've gone through "TRUE-The Man's Magazine."
>It looks like it was a competitor of ESQUIRE and PLAYBOY.

Not originally. IIRC, I read it in the late 40s and early 50s (compliments
of my uncle Dixie) and thought of it as an outdoor magazine. As I recall,
it featured articles about guns, hunting, outdodor stuff. Everybody in the
family read it.

Bethany


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Fri Jun  2 10:16:44 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:16:44 +0100
Subject: Is ICJ at The Hague in the Netherlands? (off topic)
In-Reply-To: <ba.636a651.2668b27f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.111644.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 2/6/00 7:47 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> Maybe Fred Shapiro can answer this.
> One of the questions on WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE? a few hours ago
> was "In what country is the Lockerbie trial taking place?"  The "correct"
> answer was The Netherlands.  The trial is taking place at the International
> Court of Justice, at The Hague.
> I visited there.  I was told that the ICJ is, technically, not in any
> country.  The land belongs to the United Nations.  The ICJ is NOT in The
> Netherlands.  True?
> Did Regis blow another one?
>

>From what I understand, Holland has ceded a tiny corner of its country to
Scotland (which used to be claimed by the US, I think).  That would be the
only way a Scottish court could, since you don't get English law in Scotland
nor Scots law in England or Wales.  Since Scots law prevails on that tiny
corner, and since Scottish police and British military are the only law
enforcement, *technically* the court is in Scotland.  Kind of like
embassies.

--Aaron

________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
  --Death


From vneufeldt at M-W.COM  Fri Jun  2 12:21:39 2000
From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:21:39 -0400
Subject: metadata?
In-Reply-To: <11.47843e3.2668289b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.082139.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember being told by a legal person a number of years ago that simply
the act of sending such letters as mentioned below fulfills the obligation
of the trademark holder to protect the trademark -- or something like that.
They don't need to pursue the matter past that.  Perhaps someone else on the
list has more complete information on this?

And speaking of dictionary representation of trademarks, one of the sillier
things is the representation of the long-established standard word 'loafer'
for a type of shoe as a trademark in all the major dictionaries in this
country, most without any recognition of its validity as a generic term at
all.  I was very surprised the first time I saw this in a dictionary,
because I could not remember having heard of the actual brand name at all,
and I don't think I've ever seen it to this day.

Victoria
Merriam-Webster, Inc. P.O. Box 281
Springfield, MA 01102
Tel: 413-734-3134  ext 124
Fax: 413-827-7262

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of AAllan at AOL.COM
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 4:59 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: metadata?
>
>
> This is what I've heard at meetings of the Dictionary Society,
> from those who
> ought to know:
>
> Even though you can register a name as a trademark, you cannot
> prevent people
> from using that name in discourse, or even putting it in a dictionary. The
> registration means only that others can't use that name to make money by
> using your name for their product. For example, the Coca-Cola company can
> prevent a grocery story from adverising Pepsi as "Coke," but it
> cannot stop
> people in the southeastern U.S. from calling a Pepsi or other soft drink a
> coke, or co-cola, or whatever. Trademark has to do with trade;
> conversation
> has to do with free speech.
>
> Companies want their trademarks to be widely known, which leads to the
> likelihood that a trademark will become a generic term: Kleenex and Xerox,
> for example. So the lawyers for the companies are vigilant. They send out
> threatening letters to makers of dictionaries, for example, if a
> dictionary
> dares to say that a trademark has a generic use. Pusillanimous
> lexicographers
> sometimes retreat; we heard a story not too long ago about
> "Crackerjack" in
> the venerable Dictionary of American English. But no dictionary, from what
> I've heard, has ever actually been sued for reporting generic usage of a
> trademark, much less lost a suit.
>
> So if you want to use "metadata" not to sell a product of your
> own but just
> to discuss something, ain't no law can stop you. - Allan Metcalf
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun  2 12:31:59 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:31:59 -0400
Subject: TRUE--the man's magazine
In-Reply-To: <50.622f706.266890ac@aol.com> from "Bapopik@AOL.COM" at Jun 02,
 2000 12:23:08 AM
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.083159.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>     "Report from Viet Nam" was written by Malcolm W. Browne.  April 1966, pg.
> 39, is: "'SORRY ABOUT THAT' This is the best-known phrase in a new GI lingo
> that's more sophisticated--and cynical--than the old soldier talk of World
> Wars I and II."  Terms mentioned include:
>
> dustoff (a helicopter ambulance)
> huey (helicopter)
> pucker factor (degree of fear)
> OP (outpost)
> music (water)

Barry, you want to post the actual cites, or just tease us?

Jesse Sheidlower


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun  2 15:00:39 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:00:39 -0700
Subject: Etymology of Rap
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.080039.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well...isn't this typical of the problems with slang.
Meanings vary from neighborhood to neighborhood,
school to school, city to city, ethnicity to
ethnicity, clique to clique, generation to generation,
year to year, and sometimes it seems even day to day.
When I was growing up in the 60's "to rap" meant to
give so-and-so a hard time, to chew them out, to tell
them off.  In the 70's, "to rap" was simply to talk
among friends, casually, with no subject or purpose
implied. The meaning of hitting on or talking up a
member of the opposite sex - female on male as well as
male on female - also fit in there somewhere but was
pretty much context dependent, and therefore often
ambiguous, as I recall.


--- "Anita G. Foster" <anitagf at MAIL2.GIS.NET> wrote:
> For more information on rappin'  - "When I first
> heard the expression
> 'rappin'' or 'runnin' a rap,' it had a sexual
> connotation.  The object of
> the rap was to 'get a girl's nose open,' or 'get
> into her pants.'  The
> expression was used in other ways, too, as described
> in Reality 66."
>
>
> For additional background see pages 210 to 213 in
> Herbert L. Foster's
> "Ribbin', Jivin', and Playin the Dozens:  The
> Persistent Dilemma In Our
> Schools."  published by Herbert L. Foster
> Associates, Inc. 1990.  In
> Ribbin', I describe, discuss, and explain black male
> street corner language
> and behavior as it is played out in our schools.
> Because so many teachers,
> black and white, do not understand the black male
> students' language and
> behavior, he is too often referred to special
> education and caught up in
> discipline problems.  see:
> http:/www.gse.buffalo.edu/fas.Foster/
>
>
> At 07:56 PM 05/27/2000 -0700, you wrote:
> >What is the origin of the term Rap?  The earliest
> meaning I know of is a
> >man's conversation with women in order to "put the
> moves on her," but as
> >far as I know, even that definition is not very
> old.
> >
> >Jordan Rich
> >Independent Scholar
> >http://funkmasterj.tripod.com


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Jun  2 15:18:53 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:18:53 -0400
Subject: Is ICJ at The Hague in the Netherlands? (off topic)
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.111853.0400.>

I think this is a hairsplitting distinction and somewhat academic to the
popular mind.


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Jun  2 15:19:36 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:19:36 -0400
Subject: metadata?
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.111936.0400.>

> In my experience, the letters that trademark lawyers send out to dictionary
> editors are not so much "threatening" as imploring, for reasons already given
> here by others. This is in reference to Allan and Jesse's comments.


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Jun  2 15:19:55 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:19:55 -0400
Subject: metadata?
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.111955.0400.>

Except when, a generic word, after long use in connection with a product,
service, etc. acquires a legal "secondary meaning," as "collegiate"  probably
did in connection with a webster's. Black's Law Dictionary explains "secondary
meaning" in a long paragraph.

"Peter A. McGraw" wrote:

> Does the prior generic existence of a word preclude registering it as a
> trademark and thus reserving it for that purpose from then on?
>
> Peter
>
> --On Thu, Jun 1, 2000 3:02 AM +0000 Joseph McCollum <prez234 at JUNO.COM>
> wrote:
>
> > I think this claim has been decided as frivolous (or it ought to be).  In
> > any case, I would like to know if "metadata" existed as a generic word
> > before 1986 (when the trademark was issued)...My colleagues are sure that
> > it did, but maybe Barry P. or others could confirm it.
> > ------
> >
> ****************************************************************************
>                                Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM  Fri Jun  2 16:02:03 2000
From: Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM (Joe Pickett)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:02:03 -0400
Subject: metadata?
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.120203.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've seen both threatening letters and imploring letters from trademark lawyers,
though the majority I would call letters bearing implied threats of legal
action.  The letters are often very strongly worded.  Bluff or bluster, maybe,
but trouble nonetheless for the persons editing a dictionary.

I would second Jesse's remarks-- it usually comes down to a question of how much
time the lexicographer wants to spend defending the wording of a particular
entry. In my experience, the legal department of the publishing company often
gets involved, and this just complicates things because now the lexicographer is
dealing with two sets of lawyers rather than one.  Invariably, though, the legal
department wants the lexicographer to take the path that involves the fewest
complications (and the least amount of legal work), and this invariably means
revising the definition to "A trademark used for . . . " or dropping the entry
entirely.  Trademark lawyers can also insist on specific editorial treatments.
The American Heritage Dictionary recently dropped the entry for Tarzan, a
trademark held by the Edgar Rice Burroughs estate, simply because we did not
want to accommodate all of the editorial requirements of the estate's lawyers.

The Third Edition of the American Heritage Dictionary devotes a large amount of
space to demonstating the generic use of many trademarks (lowercased, as verbs,
in figurative uses, etc) by using quotations.  I doubt any commercial dictionary
will do the same.

Fighting the general battle in defense of defining "generic" trademarks as
vocabulary items (instead of as trademarks) would require big-time resources and
time committments, assuming any publisher would be willing to take such a stand.
After all, copyright issues are not that different, and publishers own
trademarks too.

It's easy to say that, because no dictionary publisher has ever been
successfully sued over the treatment of a trademark in a dictionary,
lexicographers should pay no mind to the letters from trademark lawyers and edit
trademarks as they deem best.  But the realities of working in a real
institution make such practice virtually impossible.



Joe Pickett
Executive Editor
Houghton Mifflin Company





Thomas Paikeday <t.paikeday at sympatico.ca> on 06/02/2000 11:19:36 AM

Please respond to t.paikeday at sympatico.ca

To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Joe Pickett/Trade/hmco)
Subject:  Re: metadata?



> In my experience, the letters that trademark lawyers send out to dictionary
> editors are not so much "threatening" as imploring, for reasons already given
> here by others. This is in reference to Allan and Jesse's comments.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  2 16:10:27 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:10:27 EDT
Subject: Is ICJ at The Hague in the Netherlands?
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.121027.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As Bill Clinton would have rightly said, this is just a matter of what your
definition of "in" is.

There MAY be some arcane international-law meaning of "in" with respect to
ICJ and this particular trial, but The Hague is most definitely "in" The
Netherlands (according to AHD3, it is in fact the "de facto capital"), and
this particular trial is taking place "in" a courtroom that is located "in"
The Hague.

Tom Paikeday is right--any other interpretration of "in" here contradicts
common sense.


In a message dated 6/2/2000 5:15:46 AM, aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK writes:

<< on 2/6/00 7:47 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> Maybe Fred Shapiro can answer this.
> One of the questions on WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE? a few hours ago
> was "In what country is the Lockerbie trial taking place?"  The "correct"
> answer was The Netherlands.  The trial is taking place at the International
> Court of Justice, at The Hague.
> I visited there.  I was told that the ICJ is, technically, not in any
> country.  The land belongs to the United Nations.  The ICJ is NOT in The
> Netherlands.  True?
> Did Regis blow another one?
>

>From what I understand, Holland has ceded a tiny corner of its country to
Scotland (which used to be claimed by the US, I think).  That would be the
only way a Scottish court could, since you don't get English law in Scotland
nor Scots law in England or Wales.  Since Scots law prevails on that tiny
corner, and since Scottish police and British military are the only law
enforcement, *technically* the court is in Scotland.  Kind of like
embassies.

--Aaron >>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  2 16:20:21 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:20:21 EDT
Subject: Fwd: nine-spot problem & boxed-in thinking
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.122021.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


-------------- next part --------------
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Subject: nine-spot problem & boxed-in thinking
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From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Jun  2 16:26:25 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:26:25 -0700
Subject: Is ICJ at The Hague in the Netherlands?
In-Reply-To: <9f.62331b1.26693673@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.092625.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In any case, I don't think this trial IS taking place in The Hague, and the
case isn't being tried by the ICJ.  NPR's reports of the trial have been
broadcast from Camp Zeist, a military base in the eastern part of the
country, where the Scottish court is trying the case.  If the Netherlands
ceded a parcel of land to Scotland for this purpose, it wasn't in The Hague.

Peter McGraw

--On Fri, Jun 2, 2000 12:10 PM +0000 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> As Bill Clinton would have rightly said, this is just a matter of what
> your definition of "in" is.
>
> There MAY be some arcane international-law meaning of "in" with respect to
> ICJ and this particular trial, but The Hague is most definitely "in" The
> Netherlands (according to AHD3, it is in fact the "de facto capital"), and
> this particular trial is taking place "in" a courtroom that is located
> "in" The Hague.
>
> Tom Paikeday is right--any other interpretration of "in" here contradicts
> common sense.
>
>
> In a message dated 6/2/2000 5:15:46 AM, aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK writes:
>
> << on 2/6/00 7:47 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>> Maybe Fred Shapiro can answer this.
>> One of the questions on WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE? a few hours ago
>> was "In what country is the Lockerbie trial taking place?"  The "correct"
>> answer was The Netherlands.  The trial is taking place at the
>> International Court of Justice, at The Hague.
>> I visited there.  I was told that the ICJ is, technically, not in any
>> country.  The land belongs to the United Nations.  The ICJ is NOT in The
>> Netherlands.  True?
>> Did Regis blow another one?
>>
>
> From what I understand, Holland has ceded a tiny corner of its country to
> Scotland (which used to be claimed by the US, I think).  That would be the
> only way a Scottish court could, since you don't get English law in
> Scotland nor Scots law in England or Wales.  Since Scots law prevails on
> that tiny corner, and since Scottish police and British military are the
> only law enforcement, *technically* the court is in Scotland.  Kind of
> like embassies.
>
> --Aaron >>



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  2 16:27:54 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:27:54 EDT
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.122754.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It may well be that ALL languages will vanish by 2100.


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Jun  2 17:19:26 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 13:19:26 -0400
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.131926.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Only if all people vanish will all languages vanish by 2100.  As a
species we sure do like to make a lot of noise.  Some of it is even
meaningful.

David Barnhart


David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Jun  2 17:34:25 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:34:25 -0700
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
In-Reply-To: <13.612c302.26693a8a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.103425.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, maybe, but I'm brushing up on my Ainu just in case. :)

PMc

--On Fri, Jun 2, 2000 12:27 PM +0000 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> It may well be that ALL languages will vanish by 2100.



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Jun  2 19:10:30 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:10:30 -0400
Subject: Most Languages to Vanish by 2100
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.151030.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm looking forward to starting my studies of Zekler this weekend.

David Barnhart

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  3 04:07:43 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 00:07:43 EDT
Subject: Moo Goo Gai Pan; Egg Foo Yong
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUN.2000.000743.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MOO GOO GAI PAN

     OED has done "M," so where is Moo Goo Gai Pan?  OED's one mention is
from VERBATIM, 1980-81, under "agma."
     I'm a vegetarian and I don't order this dish, but I just like saying it!
 Moo Goo Gai Pan!  It sounds like something Jesse's or Erin's kids would
order.
     From GOURMET, March 1957, pg. 64, col. 2:

Q. I want to give a dinner party, Chinese style, and I'd like the recipe for
_moo goo gai pen_, my favorite Chinese dish.
MRS. RUTH TROIANI
POUND RIDGE, NEW YORK
A. _Chacun a son moo goo_, say we!
     _Moo Goo Gai Pen_
     In a heavy skillet heat 3 tablespoons oil, 1 teaspoon salt, and a dash
of pepper.  Add 2 cups cooked chicken, cut in julienne strips, 1/2 cup each
of celery, water chestnuts, and cooked mushrooms, all finely sliced, 1/2 cup
each of _bok choy_ hearts and bamboo shoots, both cut into 1-inch pieces, 1
teaspoon finely minced ginger root, and 1 cup chicken broth.  Cover the pan
tightly and cook the mixture over moderate heat for 5 minutes.
     Stir 2 tablespoons cornstarch to a paste with 2 teaspoons soy sauce and
1/4 cup water, and stir the paste into the vegetable-chicken mixture.  Add 1
cup tender young snow-pea pods, stringed.  Cover the pan tightly and cook the
_moo goo gai pen_ for another minute or two.  Serve it with rice.

     From GOURMET, August 1970, pg. 58, col. 1:

Q. Please give me a recipe for _moo goo gai pan_.
WILLIAM S. CARPENTER
BRIDGEPORT, CONNECTICUT
A. Get out your _wok_ and follow the directions below.
     _Moo Goo Gai Pan_
     _(Chinese Chicken with Mushrooms)_
     Skin and bone 1 chicken breast and cut the meat into cubes.  COmbine 2
teaspoons cornstarch with 1/2 teaspoon salt and 1/4 teaspoon pepper and
dredge the chicken cubes in this mixture until they are evenly coated.  In a
_wok_ or skillet stir-fry 2 or 3 slices of gingerroot and 1 garlic clove, all
minced, in 2 tablespoons oil for 1 minute.  Add the chicken cubes and
stir-fry them for 2 to 3 minutes, or until they begin to brown.  Drain the
liquid from a 4-ounce can of button mushrooms, reserving 1/4 cup, add the
mushrooms to the chicken, and heat them through.  Blend 1 tablespoon
cornstarch into the reserved mushroom liquid and stir the paste into the
sauce until it is thickened.  If desired, 10 to 12 snow peas, 4 water
chestnuts, sliced, and 1 tablespoon oil may be added with the chicken.  Serve
the dish at once.  Serves 4.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
EGG FOO YONG

     OED has 1917 and 1928 citations, but with different spellings.
     From NEW SALADS, BRIDGE LUNCHEONS, CANNED MEALS (1933) by the Chicago
Daily News, pg. 298:

     _EGG FOO YONG_
     Ten eggs, one cup shredded onion, two cups sprouts, one cup finely cut
roasted or boiled cold meat of any kind, or shrimp, lobster, crabmeat or tuna
fish; drain all juice off the sprouts, mix thoroughly with meat and onion,
beat the eggs slightly and add to the mixture.  Divide into equal parts by
using a soup ladle of three-quarters cup capacity, pour gradually into a
frying pan containing one-half inch of very hot fat.  When one side is
browned turn over and brown the other.  For gravy thicken the quantity needed
of good soup stock with cornstarch and brown with brown or soy sauce.  Add
salt and pepper to suit your taste.  Serve hot over egg foo yong.


From nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun  3 06:15:45 2000
From: nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET (Nancy Elliott)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 23:15:45 -0700
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
In-Reply-To: <39367B86.679E4DF8@msdw.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUN.2000.231545.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

So what makes "lemon curd" curd and not one of those other terms?


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Sat Jun  3 13:07:43 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 14:07:43 +0100
Subject: jams, jellies, and preserves
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUN.2000.140743.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Nancy Elliot asked:
>
> So what makes "lemon curd" curd and not one of those other terms?

it has eggs in it.

lynne


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun  3 18:23:07 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 14:23:07 -0400
Subject: Mexican Pizza
In-Reply-To: <b4.60cd11e.26685f38@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUN.2000.142307.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 1 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>     "Mexican Pizza" is not in the OED (revising beginning with "M"?) and not

It is my understanding that the OED has only revised part of the letter M.
In addition, "Mexican Pizza," like many of the items Barry posts
information about, does not seem like a term of sufficient currency or
sufficient status as a fixed combination to merit inclusion in the OED.
The OED does not cover every possible word-combination in the English
language, although it has more than any other dictionary.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun  3 19:51:04 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 15:51:04 -0400
Subject: TRUE--the man's magazine
In-Reply-To: <50.622f706.266890ac@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUN.2000.155104.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 2 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> WHO WANTS TO WATCH "WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE?"
>
>     I got every question--without the choices.  One contestant couldn't
> identify "round up the usual suspects" with the film classic CASABLANCA.  She
> thought for what seemed like twenty minutes. Goofy music played in the
> background.  You had to know stupid things for the show, like tv sitcom
> history and the birth dates of Julia Roberts and Christina Ricci.

The "hot-seat" questions were pretty easy on that show.  Unfortunately,
the "fastest-finger" questions were harder, at least for me.  "Hot seat"
and "fastest-finger" require two different kinds of skills, but to win
anything on the show you have to be good at both.

I was surprised that the contestant didn't know "round up the usual
suspects," which is a major movie quote.  I was also surprised that
another contestant didn't know "mush" as a command to Arctic dogs and
"Vanity Fair" as the title of a Thackeray novel.  In general, the show
reveals the state of Americans' knowledge of history, geography, and
literature to be abysmal.  But, it needs to be pointed out, I could tell
even from coming into proximity with the hot seat that the pressure there
is enormous, and, if a contestant doesn't know that a compass points
north, as happened recently, it probably means that they do know but their
brain went bye-bye in the heat of the moment.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun  3 19:59:17 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 15:59:17 -0400
Subject: Is ICJ at The Hague in the Netherlands? (off topic)
In-Reply-To: <ba.636a651.2668b27f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUN.2000.155917.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 2 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>     Maybe Fred Shapiro can answer this.
>     One of the questions on WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE? a few hours ago
> was "In what country is the Lockerbie trial taking place?"  The "correct"
> answer was The Netherlands.  The trial is taking place at the International
> Court of Justice, at The Hague.
>     I visited there.  I was told that the ICJ is, technically, not in any
> country.  The land belongs to the United Nations.  The ICJ is NOT in The
> Netherlands.  True?
>     Did Regis blow another one?

Although the New York Times recently published an article about my
pointing out that Millionaire was incorrect on a question about the Grace
Murray Hopper bug myth, I was impressed during my day with the show by the
show's obvious concern with accuracy.  It appears to be the only TV game
show that admits errors.

Maybe it is possible for institutions or people to be imperfect without
being lousy or conspiratorial...


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  4 01:33:23 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 21:33:23 EDT
Subject: Anadama/Yami-Dami Bread
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUN.2000.213323.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    "Anadama Bread" has been an etymological puzzle for a long time.  It's a
bread made from cornmeal and molasses.
    DARE cites DIALECT NOTES (1915), lists "NEng," and states "Etym unknown;
for folk-etym, see quots."
    John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK also states that the
term dates in print from 1915.  The often-given etymology is "Anna, damn
her!"  This sounds as convincing to me as "Whose ear?" for Hoosier.
    Another etymology has it that Anna has this on her gravestone:  "ANNA WAS
A LOVELY BRIDE, BUT ANNA, DAMN HER, UP AND DIED."
    From MORE RECIPES FOR FIFTY (Boston, 1918) by Frances Lowe Smith, pg. 17:

    _Yami-Dami Bread_
1 quart boiling water
1 cup rye meal
2 cups corn meal
1/4 cup shortening
1 cup molasses
2 tablespoons salt
1 yeast cake in 1/2 cup cold water
1 1/2 quarts bread flour
1 quart rye or barley flour
     Mix corn and rye meal, add boiling water, stir until smooth.  Add salt,
fat, and molasses; cool.  Add dissolved yeast and bread flour.  Beat well,
and add rye or barley flour to knead as soft as can be handled.  Let rise
over night; shape, let rise until double in bulk, and bake an hour or more in
moderate oven.  Makes three large loaves.

    This "Yami-Dami" spelling (in my opinion) probably kills "Anna, damn
her."  I'll have to check for this spelling on MOA and other databases.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  4 01:51:10 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 21:51:10 EDT
Subject: Chimichangas; more Moo Goo Gai Pan
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUN.2000.215110.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MOO GOO GAI PAN (continued)

    David Shulman came up with 1903 in the METROPOLITAN MAGAZINE (NY), pg.
431, col. 1:  "All the great dishes served in China a thousand years
ago...including...'muy gou guy pen' which is boneless chicken with white
mushrooms."
    I didn't find the Chinese dish on the MOA database, but I might have used
the wrong spelling.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CHIMICHANGAS

    Does "chimichanga" mean "little monkey," as "burrito" is "little donkey"?
 The food item is not in THE FOOD AND DRINK OF MEXICO (1964; reprinted by
Dover Books) by Goerge C. Booth.
    John Mariani states that "chimichanga" was long thought to have been
coined in the 1950s in Tucson, Arizona, but Diane Kennedy's CUISINES OF
MEXICO (1972) states that fried burritos in Mexico are called by the similar
name _chivichangas_.
    From GOURMET, January 1979, pg. 40, col. 2:

    _Chimichangas_
    _(Southwestern Fried Burritos)_
     Make Mexican fried beans, adding 1/3 cup grated Monterey Jack or
longhorn cheese when they have formed a thick paste, and cook the mixture
over moderately low heat, stirring, until the cheese is just melted.  Let the
mixture cool and make flour tortillas.
     Spoon 1/3 to 1/2 cup of the beans onto the lower third of each tortilla,
roll up each tortilla egg-roll fashion, folding in the ends, and secure each
one with a wooden pick.  In a deep fryer fry the _chimichangas_ 2 at a time
in hot deep oil (375 degrees F.) for 2 to 3 minutes, or until they are golden
brown and transfer them with tongs to paper towels to drain.  Remove the
wooden picks, arrange the _chimichangas_ on a flameproof platter, and
sprinkle them with 1//2 cup grated longhorn cheese.  Put the platter under a
preheated broiler 6 inches from the heat for 30 seconds, or until the cheese
is melted.  Spoon 1/2 cup sour cream over the _chimichangas_ and serve them
with tomato sauce with green _chiles_.  Serves 6.

   I'll try to look for "chimichanga" (and "fajita") in 1980s issues of
GOURMET and BON APPETIT, as well as other publications on "Tex-Mex" food.
   About "Mexican Pizza"--it's certainly not just Taco Bell.  "Mexican Pizza"
is not trademarked by anyone.  It's on the SOAR database of online recipes.
It's on EPICURIOUS.com.  GOURMET featured "Mexican Pizza" in April 1996; BON
APPETIT featured "Mexican Pizza" in  December 1996.  There are 1,920 hits on
Google.com.  If OED doesn't want the citation, that's up to them.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun  4 01:53:25 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 21:53:25 -0400
Subject: Moo Goo Gai Pan; Egg Foo Yong
In-Reply-To: <c3.62f0dc2.2669de8f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUN.2000.215325.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>      OED has done "M," so where is Moo Goo Gai Pan?  OED's one mention is

As I stated previously, OED has not completely revised "M" yet.  There are
also issues of whether a term has been sufficiently naturalized to be
included.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sun Jun  4 05:29:04 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 22:29:04 -0700
Subject: Chimichanga origin
In-Reply-To: <200006040400.VAA19346@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUN.2000.222904.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The chimichanga is a type of burrito, and evidently originated in the NW
Mexico/SW US area, though it spread with remarkable rapidity. I found
chimichangas in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois in the early 1980s. There was
an article speculating on its origin in the Arizona Daily Star (Tucson)
several years ago, in the weekly food section, but I don't remember the
details. It may be possible to check the archives of the paper, but I
doubt that they are machine-accessible that far back. The paper maintains
a current electronic form in its AZSTAR.NET.

        Rudy


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Sun Jun  4 08:13:22 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Peggy Lynn)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 03:13:22 -0500
Subject: TRUE--the man's magazine
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUN.2000.031322.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>     This is the first time that I've gone through "TRUE-The Man's Magazine."
> It looks like it was a competitor of ESQUIRE and PLAYBOY.

        <<snip>>

>     "Report from Viet Nam" was written by Malcolm W. Browne.  April 1966, pg.
> 39, is: "'SORRY ABOUT THAT' This is the best-known phrase in a new GI lingo
> that's more sophisticated--and cynical--than the old soldier talk of World
> Wars I and II."  Terms mentioned include:
>
> dustoff (a helicopter ambulance)
> huey (helicopter)
> pucker factor (degree of fear)
> OP (outpost)
> music (water)

OP meaning "outpost" could be a misunderstanding or a misreporting in a
1966 report from Viet Nam.  At any rate, OP meant something else during
the Korean War.  Since this month marks the 50th anniversary of the
start of that war, I feel entitled to elaborate a definition with one
story of what I call "my" war.

In the Korean War, an OP was an "observation post" -- a term with
particlar meaning to artillery spotters.

The Korean War eventually settled into a war with a more or less fixed
battle line, the "MLR" (Main Line of Resistance).  Artillery spotters
worked in OPs in bunkers that were farther advanced than any other
positions on the MLR. (That did make them pretty distant outposts -- but
OP still meant observation post.)

As a medical lab tech, I used to accompany shipments of whole blood from
the 48th United Nations Blood Bank in Tokyo all the way to their
destinations in Korea.  On one trip that took me to a MASH unit almost
on top of the MLR, I noticed that a unit of the 1st Field Artillery
Observation Batallion was nearby. My best friend was in the 1st FAOB,
and I decided to visit him on my next trip.

I had more than a visit in mind.  By custom, a planeload of blood
consisted of  259 cases of whole human blood and 1 empty case for the
courier's gear. Nobody was going to mess with a vital shipment of whole
blood.  We couriers got used to carrying our gear in a knapsack on our
backs, so that the empty case could carry something more important. On
the next trip that brought me close to what I thought was my friend's
post, I filled the courier's case with four bottles of good bourbon.
(We could get all the booze we wanted in Tokyo -- at only $3.00 to $4.00
a fifth for the best brands, since we could buy it free of both taxes
and duty. In theory, there was no good bonded liquor available in
Korea.) When the blood shipment was delivered to the MASH hospital, I
took off to deliver the bottled surprise to my friend.

That's when I discovered that the 1st FAOB was spread out virtually the
whole length of the MLR.  My friend Skip was a couple of hundred miles
away from the unit I caught up with.  Well, I had met several of Skip's
friends in the past. (Ridiculous as it may sound, even in a highly
bureaucratized army of several million soldiers you get used to
traveling along personal networks wherever you go.  After my first duty
post, I never went to any unit in the Medical Corps without finding
someone I knew -- or at least someone who knew a number of people I had
worked with on some previous assignment.) A couple of calls on a
hand-crank field phone located some of Skip's 1st FAOB friends nearby. I
went to their bunker to deliver my precious cargo.

>From the bunker that was their OP, the only way I could see any US or
ROK or UN forces was to look back over my shoulder.  Looking forward,
the only humans I could see were Chinese artillery spotters up ahead of
the Chinese line.  Our guys had such a perfect fix on the Chinese OP
that they used it as their aiming point.  They assumed that the Chinese
returned the compliment.  As a practical proposition, neither side would
call for artillery fire on the other side's artillery OP because it
would have been suicidal. An artillery strike would be returned with
perfect, pinpoint accuracy.

I wasn't totally insane.  I got away from that bunker as fast as I
could, and never went back for another visit.  I saw the guys I had
visited when they came to Japan on R & R a couple of months later.  They
told me that their OP had been overrun by Chinese advances three times
since I had been there.  Each time, they buttoned it up from the inside
and waited a day or two until our side pushed the Chinese back again. I
was extremely impressed, and surer than ever that I would not drop in on
them again.

But I surely had cause to remember that OP meant "observation post" to
the artillery during the Korean War.

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!

P.S.: I agree with Bethany Dumas in recalling that TRUE, the man's
magazine was
largely about shooting and guns and hunting and camping and the outdoors
in the late 1940s to early 50s.  It was a sort of hairy-chested version
of Field and Stream, IIRC.


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sun Jun  4 09:28:36 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 05:28:36 -0400
Subject: Chimichanga origin
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUN.2000.052836.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Rudy Troike wrote:

>The chimichanga is a type of burrito, and evidently originated in the NW
>Mexico/SW US area, though it spread with remarkable rapidity. I found
>chimichangas in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois in the early 1980s. There was
>an article speculating on its origin in the Arizona Daily Star (Tucson)
>several years ago, in the weekly food section, but I don't remember the
>details. It may be possible to check the archives of the paper, but I
>doubt that they are machine-accessible that far back. The paper
>maintains
>a current electronic form in its AZSTAR.NET.

I found:

The earliest written evidence (from Nexis) is provided in the quotation:


Less hungry souls can order more simply from either the "combinaciones"
section, which featured such as tacos, chili relleno or tostada for
$2.95 to $4.55, or from the ala carte section, which offered one
Mexican dish, such as enchiladas,  chimichanga,  tostada and the like,
for $1.20 to $3.95.    Our group managed to hit all the tastes.  Our
son Doug, who hates beans and has a milder aversion to spicy food, was
worried about all the dishes.  Penelope Lemov, The Washington Post,
Oct. 5, 1978, Maryland sect., p 12

Making of America had nothing.


>From the Web I found after a brief search:


If you deep fry a burro, it becomes a chimichanga -- a truly local dish
from
            southern Arizona or northern Sonora. There are many legends
concerning the
            origin of the chimichanga its apparently meaningless name
(some folks insist
            it's a chivichanga). I don't know which, if any, might be
the truth... I'd
            honestly rather eat the things than argue about their
origin.)
http://dizzy.library.arizona.edu/images/folkarts/tucfood.html

I'll keep my eye open for more.

Regards,
David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Sun Jun  4 10:33:06 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 05:33:06 -0500
Subject: Oops!
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUN.2000.053306.0500.>

My apologies to the list. My last message incorrectly shows "Peggy Lynn"
in the space for the sender's name on its header.

Explanation: My wife and I are temporarily sharing one computer for
e-mail and Internet access. (Peggy's computer is down, and I haven't
finished installing programs on its replacement.) Peggy Lynn married me
in 1955; she still uses that name when emphasizing the fact that she is
acting for herself alone.  For all other purposes, she calls herself
Peggy Salovesh.  I call her Peggy and rarely use any surname for her.
She calls me Mike and rarely uses a surname for me.

I stupidly forgot to change the "Identity" box for mail preferences when
it was my turn to use this computer. The message was accepted by the
ADS-L server because this machine can only access a single dialup
account.  ADS-L's server checks the account address, not the sender's
name, when accepting messages from list members.

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!

P.S.:  <salovesh at niu.edu> is an alias for the official account address,
<t20mxs1 at corn.cso.niu.edu>.  We who use the NIU system spent three years
convincing the folks in charge that 1) our official account names are
confusing and counterproductive; 2) the server could easily handle
aliases as alternatives to the official account names; 3) existing
account names and the system behind them would not have to be changed if
aliases were added; and 4) the world wouldn't end if people were allowed
to use aliases if they preferred.  I do and I do, and by golly, that
hasn't ended the world.  Yet.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  4 13:14:04 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 09:14:04 EDT
Subject: Sticky buns; Lord Baltimore Cake; Denver Sandwiches; VIchyssoise
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUN.2000.091404.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

STICKY BUNS

"Now for a real treat!  My sticky buns!"
--Martha Stewart
(O.K., so I made that quote up)

     It's like "buns of steel," only different.
     John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK gives no date:
"Although they are popular throughout the United States, they are often
associated with Philadelphia and sometimes called 'Philadelphia sticky buns,'
although in Philadelphia itself, they are called 'cinnamon buns.'"
     "Sticky buns" is not in the OED.  The franchise that sells these things
is called "Cinnabon."
     From GOURMET, March 1976, pg. 78, col. 1:

     _Philadelphia Sticky Buns_
     In a small bowl proof 1 envelope active dry yeast in 1/4 cup lukewarm
water with a pinch of sugar for 10 minutes.  In a large bowl combine 1 cup
scalded milk with 1 stick (1/2 cup) butter, softened and cut into bits, and
let the mixture cool to lukewarm.  Beat in the yeast mixture, 2 cups sifted
flour, 2 tablespoons sugar, and 1 teaspoon salt and let the sponge stand,
covered, in a warm place for 30 minutes, or until it is bubbly.  Beat in 2
eggs, 1 at a time, beating well after each addition, and 1/2 cup sugar and
stir in 2 1/2 cups sifted flour, 1/2 cup at a time, to make a smooth soft
dough. Turn the dough out on a lightly floured surafce and knead it for 10
minutes, or until it si smooth and satiny.  Knead in additional flour if the
dough is sticky.  Form the dough into a ball, put it in a buttered bowl,
turning it to coat it with the butter, and let it rise, covered, in a warm
place for 1 hour and 30 minutes, or until it si double in bulk.  Punch down
and halve the dough and roll one half into a 14- by 9inch rectangle on a
lightly floured surface.  Spread 2 tablespoons softened butter evenly on the
dough, sprinkle the dough with 1/3 cup firmly packed light brown sugar, 1/4
cup chopped black walnuts, 2 tablespoons currants, and 1 teaspoon cinnamon,
and drizzle 3 tablespoons light corn syrup over the filling.  Beginning at a
short end roll up the dough jelly-roll fashion.  Repeat the process with the
remaining dough.  Pour 2/3 cup light corn syrup into each of two buttered
9-inch-square baking pans, tilting and rotating the pans to distribute the
syrup evenly.  Cut the dough rolls into 1-inch slices, arrange 9 slices cut
side down in each pan, leaving space between them, and let the buns rise,
covered, in a warm place for 45 minutes, or until they are double in bulk.
Bake the buns on the lowest rack of a preheated moderate oven (350 degrees
F.) for 35 to 40 minutes, or until they are well browned.  Invert the buns
onto racks set over jelly-roll pans and let them cool slightly.  Break the
buns apart.  Makes 18 buns.

     This is from WINE AND DINE WITH THE LAKE ROLAND (MD--ed.) GARDEN CLUB
(1935), pg. 129:

     _STICKY BUNS_
2 teaspoons salt
1 pint scalded milk
1/4 pound butter
1/2 cup sugar
     Stir, and when cool add 2 beaten eggs.  Add 1 yeast cake dissolved in a
little warm milk and 1 tablespoon sugar.  Beat with spoon, adding enough
flour (about 6 or 8 cups) to make soft dough.  Cover and let lighten. Pull
dough in sheets, sprinkle with white sugar, cinnamon, raisins and butter.
Roll and cut in buns.  Melt butter in pan and sprinkle with brown sugar, put
buns in and lighten again.  Cook in slow oven about 30 minutes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
LORD BALTIMORE CAKE

    The Lady Baltimore Cake is famous and is well documented in Mariani's
ENCYCLOPEDIA.  THE GENERAL FOOD COOK BOOK (1932) has a long recipe for "Lord
Baltimore Cake" on page 278.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
DENVER SANDWICHES

     DARE has this from 1925 and cites a Sinclair Lewis novel.  I found a
bunch of hits, most from the 1930s.
     From YOUNG PEOPLE'S COOK BOOK, OR, HOW THE DAYTONS COOKED AT HOME AND IN
CAMP (New York, 1925) by Inez N. McFee, pg. 270:

     _Denver Sandwiches._  Combine chopped meat and eggs in an omelet.  Toast
the bread on one side.  Place the mixture between the buttered, untoasted
sides.  Top with shredded cress, camp greens or cabbage salad.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
VICHYSSOISE

     I'll check the NYPL's menus for "Vichyssoise."
     This is from A MEAL IN ITSELF: A BOOK OF SOUPS (1944) by Mary Frost
Mabon, pg. 164:

     _VICHYSSOISE--CENTRAL PARK CASINO_
     (for 6 or 7)
     Lucius Beebe's fans were aroused to such a pitch of enthusiasm when he
published this recipe in the Thirties in his Saturday _New York Herald
Tribune_ column, that for years thereafter he celebrated each anniversary of
its appearance with a different version of the soup.  And even today, the
thirst for Vichyssoise that he reported and that he helped engender rages
unslaked.  So every aspiring hot-doggery now prints a V for Vichyssoise on
its menu, though the soup that is often served under that honorable name
should cause a responsible maitre d'hotel to leave the premises instanter.
Onion-and-flavor-sauce soup is what they should call it, for only the chives
and the chilling bear any relation to the original--a leek soup invented for
Louis XIV.  (...) This is a tried and true recipe, and once you use it you
may never again want to eat the soup out, except possibly at "21" or at Ernie
Byfield's Pump Room in Chicago, where I agree with Beebe that the higher
niceties of gastronomy are observed to the letter.

    I'll plow through Beebe's Saturday columns when I have time.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SMOOTHIE

     OED has a first citation of 1977.
     John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK has:

_smoothie._  A drink with a thick, smooth consistency made from pureeing
fruit with yogurt, ice cream, or milk.  The term dates to the 1970s.

     From GOURMET, July 1978, pg. 104, col. 3:

     _Banana Smoothie_
     In a blender or in a food processor fitted with the steel blade blend 1
banana, sliced, 1/2 cup each of plain yogurt and orange juice, and 3
tablespoons honey at high speed until the mixture is smooth.  Pour the
mixture into a chilled tall glass and sprinkle it with freshly grated nutmeg.
 Makes 1 drink.


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Sun Jun  4 13:36:11 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 14:36:11 +0100
Subject: text messaging lingo
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUN.2000.143611.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's an article in the Saturday magazine in the Guardian (UK)
newspaper about text-messaging on mobile phones and how its popularity
has exceeded expectations, mostly because it's good for flirtation.
Unfortunately, the web version of the article doesn't have the side-bar
glossary of text messages.

http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4024760,00.htm
l

A lot of the glossary involves things like emoticons and obvious things
like 'U = you', 1 = 'one' and '2 = to, too'  (but not two?).  But here
are a few of the less obvious or more texty ones:

ATB - all the best
BCNU - be seeing you
B4  - before
CU L8R - see you later
F2T - free to talk
Gr8, H8, L8, L8R - great, hate, late, later
Luv - love
Mob - mobile
NE - any
NE1 - anyone
NO1 - no one
OIC - oh, I see
PPL - people
RUOK - are you okay
SOME1 - someone
THNQ - thank you
WAN2 - want to  (but Gonna = going to)
Wknd - weekend

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  4 18:19:15 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 14:19:15 EDT
Subject: Fajita & Chimichanga; Golf Slang
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUN.2000.141915.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FAJITA & CHIMICHANGA

     From JANE BUTEL'S TEX-MEX COOKBOOK (1980):

Pg. 97--CHIMICHANGOS Wheat-Flour Tortillas Filled with Beef and Deep-Fried
     In the cities nearest the Mexican border, particularly in El Paso and
Tucson, a new favorite has become established as one of the specialties.  In
restaurants featuring chimichangos, the managements seem to agree that they
have become their most requested dish.  Since the recipe is kept closely
guarded, I found I had to develop this recipe myself after many samplings and
conversations with the secretive restaurants.
Pg. 126--BEEF FAJITAS
     Hailing from the citrus groves of South Texas near Brownsville, this is
an authentic recipe developed by the Mexican citrus workers.  Many so called
fajita marinades and rubs are available, but they are only maufactured and do
not produce the traditional flavors this recipe does.  Chicken breast
flattened (not pounded) or shelled shrimp can be substituted for the beef if
desired.

     From NUEVO TEX-MEX: FESTIVE NEW RECIPES FROM JUST NORTH OF THE BORDER
(1998) by David Garrido and Robb Walsh, pg. 103:

     Fajitas are a Tex-Mex phenomenon.  Ask for fajitas in Mexico City and
you will probably be directed to the nearest lingerie store.  That's because
in Spanish _faja_ means "girdle" and _fajita_ means "little girdle" or
"little belt."  Sound strange?  Well, consider that the word _fajita_
actually describes the same piece of meat we call skirt steak in English.
     The skirt steak was one of the many lower grade beef cuts traditionally
eaten by ranch hands in northern Mexico and Texas.  When the ranch owners
slaughtered a steer, the prime cuts would go to the ranch house and the rest
of the animal would be divided among the help.  Many old border dishes such
as _barbacoa_, from the cow's head, and _menudo_, from the stomach lining,
trace their beginnings to this custom.
     With the advent of refrigeration and commercial slaughterhouses, the old
ranch customs of meat distribution died out.  Ranch hands and ranch owners
bought their beef in the grocery store like everybody else.  By the early
1960s, most Texas butchers threw the skirt steak cuts in with the other
scraps they used for ground meat.  But some butchers in the Lower Rio Grande
Valley put the inner skirt aside for customers who still liked to grill the
fajitas the way it was done in the old days.  One of those traditionalists
was Sonny Falcon.
     Sonny Falcon, the man whom the _Laredo Times_ called the Fajita King,
set up a concession stand and sold his grilled fajita tacos for the first
time at an outdoor festival in Kyle, Texas, in 1969.  Falcon's tacos made
fajitas famous, but they bore little resemblance to what we usually think of
as fajitas.  Falcon used only the thick meat of the inner skirt in his tacos.
 He never marinated the meat.  It was simply trimmed, butterflied (cut in
half lengthwise), grilled, and then chopped against the grain into bite-sized
pieces.
     Falcon's fajitas became a favorite at fairs and outdoor events all over
Texas.  But when people tried to cook Falcon's fajitas at home, they ended up
buying the tough outer skirt because it had the same name and was less
expensive.  The marinades and tenderizing treatments that are associated with
fajitas are a result of this confusion.  But whether they were made with the
tender inner skirt or the tenderized outer skirt, fajitas became such a fad
that the price of fajita meat skyrocketed.
     One of the first establishments to cash in on the fajita craze was the
restaurant in Austin's Hyatt Hotel.  But since fajita meat required so much
preparation, they substituted sirloin.  The Hyatt also began the practice of
serving the sliced, grilled meat with a pile of soft flour tortillas (Pg.
104--ed.) and other taco fillings such as guacamole, sour cream, and salsa,
so that patrons could roll their own tacos at the table.
     The meaning of the Spanish word became fuzzy as more and more
restaurants used the word _fajitas_ to describe a tabletop buffet of grilled
meats, soft tortillas, and condiments.  As a result, any grilled food served
with fillings and tortillas came to be called fajitas, including chicken
fajitas, shrimp fajitas, fish fajitas, and even veggie fajitas.
     For years, Sonny Falcon argued that fish fajitas and chicken fajitas,
which might be translated as fish skirts and chicken girdles, were completely
meaningless terms.  But no one paid much attention to the finer points of
Spanish translation.  Eventually, Falcon gave up.  In his shoort-lived
restaurant in Austin, The Fajita King, he too started serving chicken
fajitas.  "It killed me to do it, but I got tired of trying to explain it to
everybody," Falcon conceded.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
GOLF SLANG

THE LITTLE BOOK OF GOLF SLANG:
FROM FRIED EGGS TO FROG HAIRS, WORDS TO HELP YOU PASS AS A GOLFER
by Randy Voorhees
Andrews McMeel Publishing, 1997
92 pages, $4.95

    This book escaped my radar because it was with all those small "checkout
counter" books and not with the slang books.  There is no bibliography, no
etymologies.  Accept it like one of those internet lists of terms.
     Included are:

Ace, Afraid of the dark, Airmail, Albatross, Amateur slide, Backdoor,
Backhander, Bail out, Banana ball, Barky, Be the ball, the Beach, Bite,
Blade, no Blood, Bo Derek, Bob Barker, Bogey train, Bomb, Borrow, Boss of the
moss, Brassie, Broom, Bunt, like a Butterfly with sore feet, Cabbage, Can,
Carpet, Cart girl, Cart golf, Cellophane bridge, Center cut, Central America
putt, Chew, Chili dip, Comebacker, Cuppy, Cut, Dance floor, Dead, Deuce, Die
it in the hole, Digger, Double dip, Down and dirty, Downtown, Draino, Drive
for show and putt for dough, like a Dropped cat, Dub, Duck book, Duffer, Egg,
Elephant burial ground, Elephant's ass, hit it Fat, Feather, Flat bellies,
Flier, Flop shot, Flub, Fluffy, Flying elbow, Four-jack, Fried egg, Frog
hairs, Frosty, Fuzzy, Gas, Get down, Get up, Gimme, Go to school, Golf
lawyer, Golf widow, Good good, Greenie, Grinder, Grip it and rip it, Grocery
money, Grow teeth, Growl, Hacker, Hand mashie, Hanging, Hog's back,
Hollywood, Home hole, Horses for courses, Hooding the club, Hot, Hunching,
Iffy lie, In my pocket, In the leather, In the linen, Is that any good?,
Jail, Jaws, Jerk, Juice, Juicy lie, Jump, Jump on it, Jungle, Junk, Kick,
Knee-knocker, Knife, Knockdown, Knuckleball, Lag, Large, Launched, Lay the
sod over it, Leaf rule, Leak oil, Leaner, Lip out, Liz Taylor, Lockjaw, Long
and wrong, Lurking, Make the turn, Members bounce, Military golf, Milk the
grip, Monday's children, Money player, Move, Muff, Mulligan, Nassau, Nasty, a
Natural, the Neck, Needle, never in Never up, the Nineteenth hole, Nip it,
Nuked, OB, On the deck, On the screws, One a side, Oscar Brown, Overcook it,
Paint job, Peg, Pencil bag, Pencil hacker, Pick it, Pigeon, Pill, Pinch,
Pitch and putt, Plate, Play 'em down, Plugged, Pond ball, Pop, Pose, a
Position, Preferred lie, Press, Pro side, Pull, Punch, Push, Put a tack on
it, Quail high, Quick, Rake, Rattle it in, Ready golf, Ringer, a Rinse,
Robbed, the Rock, Roll it, Rope hook, Routine, Run, S-word, Sandbagger,
Sandy, Scats, Scrape it around, Scratch, Scuff, Set them up, Shag bag, Shape
it, Shooting the lights out, Short grass, Short stick, Shotgun start, Sitter,
 Skull, Sky, Slam-dunk, Slice, Slider, Smile, Smother hook,Snake, Snap hook,
Sniper, Snowman, Spinach, Spraying, Stake it, Stand on it, Stick, Sticks,
Stiff, Stoney, Stop the bleeding, Striped it, Suck back, Sucker pin, Take it
deep, Talk to it, Tester, Texas wedge, That dog will hunt, Three-jack,
Throw-up range, Tight, the Tips, Toe, Top, Tossing balls, Touch, Tracking,
Trap, Trouble shot, Trouble wood, Turn it over, Ugly, Up and down, Valleys,
Victory lap, Waggle, Weekend warriors, Whiff, Wind cheater, Windmill hole,
WInter rules, Wolf, Woodpecker, Work the ball, Worm burner, X, Yips, You da
man!, the Zone.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  4 20:58:59 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 16:58:59 EDT
Subject: Vietnam slang article in TRUE (April 1966) (LONG!)
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUN.2000.165859.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    O.K., here's a delayed Veteran's Day special.  But Jesse, it's long!
    No "nine yards."
    From TRUE, April 1966, pg. 39:

_Report from Viet Nam_
_"SORRY ABOUT THAT"_
_This is the best-known phrase in a new GI lingo that's more
sophisticated--and cynical--than the old soldier talk of World Wars I and II_
By MALCOLM W. BROWNE

     _"There'll be an OIF over you in two zero.  Give him some smoke when you
have him in sight so he'll see you as friendlies.  The fac will be calling
veenaf tacair on Charlie about one click south of you.  This could be a
little hairy.  How's your ammo and charlies?"_
     (...) Nowadays in Viet Nam the above paragraph in italics, translates to
mean:
     "There'll be a light, single-engine spotter plane over you in 20
minutes.  Throw out  a smoke signal grenade when you see him so he can
identify you.  The forward air controller (fac) will be directing Vietnamese
Air Force (VNAF, pronounced 'veenaf') tactical air power (tacair)
fighter-bombers on the Viet Cong ('Charlie' in this case means the enemy who
can also be 'Victor Charlie')(RHHDAS 1965--ed.) about one kilometer south of
you.  This could be a bit dangerous.  How are your ammunition and food
("charlies" now denoting C-rations)(RHHDAS?--ed.) holding up?"
     To further illustrate the complexities of today's jargon, the radio
conversation between headquarters and outpost might continue as follows:
     "We still have our _basic loads_ (the ammunition we started with) and
sufficient charlies for tonight, but we're running out of _music_
(water)(RHHDAS?--ed.).  Can you get some in by _huey_ (helicopter)(RHHDAS
1962--ed.) pretty soon?"
     "Roger.  Do you require _dustoff_ (a helicopter ambulance)(RHHDAS 1964,
1967, 1968--ed.)?"
     "Negative, but the _pucker factor_ (degree of fear) _would be lower_
(we'd breathe easier) if he could _orbit_ (fly around our area) for awhile.
_Incoming small arms from a whisky romeo 247389 is picking up_ (small arms
fire is increasing from the direction marked on the map by the coordinates
WR247389), and Charlie might be planning to knock off our _OP_ (outpost).  Is
dustoff airborne?"
     "_That's affirm_ (yes, it is), and _wilco on the orbit_ (will comply
with your request to stay in the air).  _Out_ (end of transmission)."
     (...)
     You may be told to "shove it," but no longer to "blow it out your
barracks bag."  For breakfast, mess halls still serve "unmentionable on
shingles," and GI's down on their luck are still advised to have the chaplain
punch their "TS cards."  But the big changes have been from words to numbers
and abbreviations, the increased use of deliberately involved language, and
the introduction of Vietnamese words, often mispronounced.
     (...) (Pg. 96, col. 1--ed.)
     Helicopters, for example, may carry such descriptive labels as
"Iroquois," "Chinook," and "Husky," but no self-respecting serviceman would
be caught saying them.  "Huey," for the HUIA chopper and its widely-used
descendants for some reason is all right, but for the rest, it must be H-34,
H-37, HH-13, and so on.  Or rather, to make things even messier,
pronunciation should be phonetic, so that instead of calling a "Husky" by
that name or even "HH-43," it's a "Hotel-Hotel-Four-Three."
     Yet strangely in this man's army, a few really exotic weapons manage to
earn and keepp proper names.  Thus, there is the "Lazy Dog"--a cluster of
sharpened steel projectiles with fins, which when dropped by jet fighters
over the Vietnamese jungles produces high casualties.  And there is "Puff the
Magic Dragon," a two-engine C-17 transport plane fitted with a six-barrelled
machine gun capable of firing 6,000 bullets per minute, also used in jungle
mop-ups.  In contrast, GI's use the letter-number designations even for such
unlikely things as can openers (P-38) and canned crackers, cheese spread and
marmalade (B-1, B-2, B-3).
     This lust for numbers also carries over into language picked up in
foreign lands.
     From the American occupation of Japan, the phrase "number one" (from the
Japanese "ichiban," meaning very good, the best) found a permanent place in
GI talk.  By extension, "number ten" came to mean very bad, the worst.
(RHHDAS 1953--ed.)  The occupation of Japan is over, and very few of the GI's
now running our war have ever been to Japan.  But still, people all over
(Col. 2--ed.) the world, including Vietnamese, are learning from our troops
that "number one" is good English meaning "the best."
     Viet Nam has added two other numbers to soldier-sailor lingo: 33 and 35.
      The number 33 (in Vietnamese, "bamouiba") is always associated with the
best selling local brand of beer: "33 Export."  (I noticed numbers on
cigarette brands when I was there--ed.)  "Bamouiba," as it is universally
known, has a kick like a mule, and some say it'll give a man anything from
peptic ulcers to leprosy.  (In fairness, I should note that I have thrived on
this brew for years with no ill effects.)  In tribute to the power of
bamouiba, a GI who has served a full one-year tour in Viet Nam is supposed to
have so proved his mettle that he's entitled to the "bamouiba ribbon."  There
are even street merchants in Saigon who sell "bamoiba ribbons"--cloth
replicas of the beer labels--to GI's game enough to sew them to their caps.
     But more important to Vietnamese-American relations is the number "35."
Viet Nam is a superstitious nation and in the mystical worlds of astrology
and numerology, the number 35 means goat.  The goat in Viet Nam is a symbol
of untiring and voracious sexual lust.  Thus, "goat," or "35," or the
Vietnamese word for 35, "bamouilam," all mean "wolf," or even "dirty old man."
     So when a sweet young thing at a bar flickers her eyelashes at you and
giggles, "Tee-hee!  You are bamouilam," she is saying literally, "you are
35."  But that's not what she means.  It goes without saying that bamouilam
is a number dear to the hearts of American fighting men, and it's an
important part of their vocabulary.
     (...)(Col. 3--ed.)(Discussion of Vietnamese and French words--ed.)
     Each of America's past wars has produced synonyms for the word "girl,"
which is possibly the most important word in the GI vocabulary.
     In Germany there was "schatzy," in France there was "amaselle," and in
Japan there was "moose" (derived from the Japanese "musume," meaning girl or
daughter).  Since Korea was close to Japan, Korean girls also become
"mooses."(RHHDAS 1951--ed.)
     But the Korean War is long past, so "moose" will not do for Viet Nam.
Some GI's know and use the words "co-dep" ("pretty girl") in referring to
Vietnamese girls.  It hasn't completely caught on yet, so you also hear such
old standbys as "broad" and "dish" when a sexy Miss walks by.
     The American military establishment in Viet Nam has, of course, produced
a huge crop of letter abbreviations, all known and used as part of the new GI
jargon.
     Some samples: "macvee" (from MACV, meaning Military Assistance Command
Vietnam), "arvin" (from ARVN, meaning Army of the Republic of Viet Nam),
"rag" (River Assault Group), "juspow" (from JUSPAO, meaning Joint U.S. Public
Affairs Office) and "you-som" (from USOM, meaning U.S. Operations Mission,
the old name for the U.S. Aid Mission).
     (...) (Pg. 97, col. 1--ed.)
     The word "you-som" (USOM) is very close in pronunciation to the
Vietnamese words meaning "breast of a Chinese woman."  Thus, when a U.S. Army
officer grimly says, "We've got to get USOM to send some powdered milk down
to that hamlet," he may get muffled laughter from a Vietnamese listener and
not know what he said to produce it.
     Because today's GI's love to find ways to understate and overcomplicate
what they have in mind, you never "shoot," "rocket" or "bomb," you "expend
ordnance."  And when you fire a 3.5-inch rocket right into the chest of a
Viet Cong, blowing him into hamburger, it is proper to say that you have
"really spoiled his day."  (Precursor of Clint Eastwood's "Make my
day"?--ed.)  It was in Viet Nam that the phrase now used all over the
world--"sorry about that"--came into being.  It supposedly was first uttered
by a field surgeon as he was about to amputate the smashed leg of a Special
Forces man.
     So far, the GI's have failed to find a really derogatory name for their
enemy.  In past wars it has been "Huns" or "Krauts" for Germans, "Japs" for
Japanese, "Gooks" for Korean, and so on.  The French used to refer to their
Vietnamese enemy as the "Viets," but GI's have found nothing stronger than
"Charlie," unless you count "hostile personnnel." (...)


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Mon Jun  5 04:03:27 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 00:03:27 -0400
Subject: patina & outsource
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.000327.0400.>

I recant the following comment on "OK". On second thoughts (uninspired),
the wheel, sliced bread, okay, okey-doke, etc. may be idle questions but
not OK. Sorry about that. Someone please copy to Allen. Not that he
would care.
-----------------------------------------
Thomas Paikeday wrote (May 22/2000, Victoria Day, under the influence):

Another nonlinguist asks, "Who first used 'outsource'?" An idle question
to me, like who first used OK (Sorry Allen, if you are listening), who
invented the wheel, sliced bread, etc. But an answer from anyone with
access to good databases would be appreciated.

Thanks to Fred Shapiro for helping.


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Jun  5 08:25:38 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 04:25:38 -0400
Subject: Chimichanga origin
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.042538.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More on chimichanga.   The origins appear to be disputed.  The "urban
legend" of its origin is found in the following:

Food historians differ on where the term " chimichanga"  originated and
whether it loosely translates as "toasted monkey." But there's no
mistaking that this deep-fried tortilla stuffed with beef, potatoes,
chilies and other seasonings has become a staple of Southwestern
cuisine. They're a specialty at El Charro Cafe.... Jerry Shriver, ?The
50 Great Plates of America,? USA TODAY (Nexis), May 26, 2000, p. 6D

For continuous operation by one family, El Charro sets a record. Monica
Flin, daughter of a Mexican woman and a French stone mason, was 40 when
she opened El Charro in 1922 in a lava rock home constructed in the
1880s by her father. The menu reflected her dual heritage: Enchiladas,
tacos and a savory French rack of lamb.  Flin, who died at age 96 after
marrying and divorcing the same man seven times, claimed to have
invented the cheese crisp and the chimichanga, a deep-fried burro. When
her health declined in the 1970s, family members Carlotta and Ray
Flores took over El Charro, now run by their daughter, Candace, Flin's
great-great-great niece.  Barbara Yost, ?From Fare To Excellent; The
Evolution Of Valley Dining; How Restaurants Got From Tacos And Steaks
To Ahi And Arugula,? Arizona Republic (Nexis), May 7, 2000, p F1


Regards,
David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From rothuno at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  5 16:40:52 2000
From: rothuno at AOL.COM (Jeff Rothlisberger)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:40:52 -0500
Subject: Attention Financial Planners
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.114052.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Would you like to earn extra revenue by originating loans for your clients? If so, please contact Jeff with Mortgage Express at rothuno at aol.com or visit us at www.mortgx.com


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Jun  5 17:07:21 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:07:21 -0700
Subject: Attention Financial Planners
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.100721.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You have spammed a discussion list, and it is not appreciated.

--On Mon, Jun 5, 2000 11:40 AM -0500 Jeff Rothlisberger <rothuno at AOL.COM>
wrote:

> Would you like to earn extra revenue by originating loans for your
> clients? If so, please contact Jeff with Mortgage Express at
> rothuno at aol.com or visit us at www.mortgx.com



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Jun  5 17:10:03 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:10:03 -0700
Subject: Oops!
In-Reply-To: <414851.3169188441@dhcp-218-202-108.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.101003.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Darn!  Excuse me, everybody--I thought I was replying to the spammer.
Foiled again!

Peter

--On Mon, Jun 5, 2000 10:07 AM -0700 "Peter A. McGraw"
<pmcgraw at linfield.edu> wrote:

> You have spammed a discussion list, and it is not appreciated.
>
> --On Mon, Jun 5, 2000 11:40 AM -0500 Jeff Rothlisberger <rothuno at AOL.COM>
> wrote:
>
>> Would you like to earn extra revenue by originating loans for your
>> clients? If so, please contact Jeff with Mortgage Express at
>> rothuno at aol.com or visit us at www.mortgx.com
>
>
>
> *************************************************************************
> *** Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From ookpik at MINDSPRING.COM  Mon Jun  5 17:19:42 2000
From: ookpik at MINDSPRING.COM (J. Katherine Rossner)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 13:19:42 -0400
Subject: Oops!
In-Reply-To: <424619.3169188603@dhcp-218-202-108.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.131942.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:10 AM 6/5/00 -0700, Peter McGraw wrote:
>Darn!  Excuse me, everybody--I thought I was replying to the spammer.
>Foiled again!

Peter,

You're excused, for my part, but you might want to note for the future that
replying directly to a spammer is NOT a good idea in any case:  it only
tells him/her that your email address is a valid one!

Better is to use whatever command your mailer has for showing full headers
(in Eudora, that means clicking on the "blah blah blah" button next to the
.sigs one), then forward the full-header copy to the administration or
"root" at the originating Internet connection, with a note that this is
spam and requesting that they deal with the sender.

Our spammer, for example, seems to have forged an AOL return address; "full
headers" appears to indicate that he was a UGA student.  It's not quite
clear to me whether that's the real originating address or one related to
the listserv, but I did send a copy to root at uga.edu, with apologies if I'm
misreading.

Katherine
--
Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche is chaunge
Withinne a thousand yere, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem, and yit they spake hem so.
        - Chaucer, "Troilus and Criseyde"


From faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Jun  5 17:58:39 2000
From: faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 13:58:39 -0400
Subject: Oops!
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000605131450.009577e0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.135839.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

J. Katherine Rossner wrote:
>At 10:10 AM 6/5/00 -0700, Peter McGraw wrote:
>>Darn!  Excuse me, everybody--I thought I was replying to the spammer.
>>Foiled again!
>
>Peter,
>
>You're excused, for my part, but you might want to note for the future that
>replying directly to a spammer is NOT a good idea in any case:  it only
>tells him/her that your email address is a valid one!
>
>Better is to use whatever command your mailer has for showing full headers
>(in Eudora, that means clicking on the "blah blah blah" button next to the
>.sigs one), then forward the full-header copy to the administration or
>"root" at the originating Internet connection, with a note that this is
>spam and requesting that they deal with the sender.
>
>Our spammer, for example, seems to have forged an AOL return address; "full
>headers" appears to indicate that he was a UGA student.  It's not quite
>clear to me whether that's the real originating address or one related to
>the listserv, but I did send a copy to root at uga.edu, with apologies if I'm
>misreading.

Nope...All of the UGA stuff has to do with the listserve that
processes ADS-L mail. These two header lines indicate where the mail
reached UGA from:

At 11:40 AM -0500 6/5/00, Jeff Rothlisberger wrote:
>Received: from kx2.lh.net (kx2.lh.net [216.81.128.204]) by crockett.cc.uga.edu
>          (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA31238 for
><ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>; Mon,
>          5 Jun 2000 12:42:22 -0400
>Received: from reznor ([216.81.208.189]) by kx2.lh.net (InterMail
>vK.4.02.00.10
>          201-232-116-110 license fa447d7e5453d7b15649594624cecde5) with SMTP
>          id <20000605164052.PPWL336.kx2 at reznor> for <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>;

Whois gives the following information, for both IP numbers in these headers:

Whois user[@<whois.server>]: 216.81.208.189

[whois.arin.net]
Lighthouse Communications, Inc. (NETBLK-LHNET-BLK-01)
    1707 Financial Center
    Des Moines, IA 50309
    US

    Netname: LHNET-BLK-01
    Netblock: 216.81.128.0 - 216.81.223.255
    Maintainer: LH

    Coordinator:
       Manske, Bryan  (BM2003-ARIN)  manske at LH.NET
       515-244-1115 (FAX) 515-244-0972

    Domain System inverse mapping provided by:

    NS1.LH.NET                  207.48.52.200
    NS2.LH.NET                  207.48.52.201

    ADDRESSES WITHIN THIS BLOCK ARE NON-PORTABLE

    Record last updated on 16-Jun-1999.
    Database last updated on 5-Jun-2000 05:44:17 EDT.

The ARIN Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Network Information: Networks, ASN's, and related POC's.
Please use the whois server at rs.internic.net for DOMAIN related
Information and whois.nic.mil for NIPRNET Information.

* Whois complete 6/5/00     1:53:32 PM  *

This is who to complain to, if you think they'd pay any attention (I don't).


 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                    new, improved email: faber at pop.haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories            old email, if you must: faber at haskins.yale.edu
New Haven, CT 06511 USA           tel: (203) 865-6163 x258; fax (203) 865-8963


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Jun  5 19:14:33 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 15:14:33 -0400
Subject: CNN story
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.151433.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bruce Dykes <bkd at GRAPHNET.COM> writes:

>>>>>
Heres a link to a CNN story about all the US towns who want to call
themselves Silicon or Digital Whatever...

     [...]

Alexandria, Louisiana's Silicon Bayou.
North Albuquerque, New Mexico's Silicon Mesa.
Oak Ridge, Tennessee's Silicon Hollow.
Phoenix, Arizona's Silicon Desert.

Silicon Desert is the most amusing so far, and I have no idea how Oak Ridge
plans to shed "Nuclear Hollow". 8-)
<<<<<

Cape Cod is calling itself the Silicon Sandbar.

My first reaction on reading the news of that was, "Obviously!... But it's
really silica."

-- Mark

This document was created with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Mon Jun  5 22:21:36 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:21:36 -0500
Subject: successful fires
In-Reply-To: <b2.605de3f.266b0be3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.172136.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Some months ago I walked down Broadway heading for the NYCity
Archives.  I crossed Canal St. just as the fire dept. was stowing its
gear after putting out a fire in a low and rather ratty looking
builidng that's somewhat of a landmark in the area, since it housed
"Pearl River", a Chinese department store.  Later that day I
overheard a couple of guys talking who had heard a news report on the
fire and were speculating as to where exactly it had been.  I told
them what I had seen, and they placed the building immediately.  Then
I said, "It looked like a pretty successful fire."  They both smiled
and nodded and added a few similar pleasantries, showing that they
were New Yorkers of the old breed.  My father never passed a burned
building without giving it a connoisseur's eye and pronouncing it "a
successful fire" or otherwise.

In the next few days I did a random but unscientific sampling of
friends.  The general results were that the young people I know
didn't know the phrase, and the non-New Yorkers didn't know it
either.  My wife, who's my age but was born to respectable parents in
southwestern Pennsylvania, tells me that she had never heard it until
she came to the big city and began consorting with low company, such
as me and my father.  Actually, I only asked two New Yorkers of my
own age.  One, when I asked him if he used or recognized the phrase,
immediately said "The old Jewish lightning, eh?"  He was born and
raised in the Bronx, and is as Irish as Paddy's pig.(1)  I was
surprised that the other, born and raised in Brooklyn, I believe, and
as Jewish as -- but I don't know a parallel expression -- didn't know
it.  Does any one out there use it?

Whether RHHDAS, vol. 3, will have "successful fire" is hidden in the
mists of time.  It does not have "Jewish lightning" among its
phrases beginning with the word "Jewish".

I have been sitting on this note until I could get my hands on Jenna
Weissman Joselit's book "Our Gang: Jewish Crime and the New York
Jewish Community," (Bloomington: Indiana U. Pr., 1983,) since I
thought I remembered that she had reproduced a relevant cartoon.  Her
discussion of arson as a tool of business management is on pp. 36-39.
 It begins "Of all the offenses commonly associated with New York
Jews, arson, or "Jewish lightning," as it was popularly called,
received the most attention."  (pp. 36-37)  She does not give a
printed contemporary source for "Jewish lightning".  The cartoon
turned out to be from Puck and undated, and not directly relevant
with regards the expression.  It had been captioned "Adding Insult to
Injury"; frame #1 showed members of a volunteer fire company in a
businessman's office, asking him to contribute toward the purchase of
a new fire engine.  In frame #2, the businessman, ("Mr. Burnupski")
throws an inkwell and a bottle at the fleeing firemen.  The caption
is: "Mr. Burnupski (excitedly)  So hellup me Fadder Abram!  Asks me
to hellup dem puy a new undt more bowerful engine ven der oldt von
put oudt four fires in mein store in der last six months!"

For the benefit of those of you who are young, or respectable, or not
New Yorkers, I will explain that the expression carries a cynical
imputation that the fire had been started on purpose, in order to
collect on the fire insurance.  The more completely the building was
destroyed, the more "successful" the fire.

(1)  I admit to never having heard spoken the expression "as Irish as
Paddy's pig", and to having seen it only once, in a book from the
late 1920s about low life in NYC.  A very major gambler and criminal
power-broker and financier named Arnold Rothstein had been murdered.
An Irish-born cleaning woman who worked in the hotel where Rothstein
was last alive said that she had seen him talking to a man she
described as "a big feller, and as Irish as Paddy's pig".  The cops,
reasoning shrewdly, thought that the description was not
inappropriate for George McManus, who was considerably taller than 6
feet and who was on poor terms with Rothstein.  Nothing came of this.
 Rothstein's murder generated a lot of heat but even more pressure to
cover it up, and covered up it was.

GAT


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  6 01:10:25 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:10:25 EDT
Subject: New York Times responds
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.211025.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Yesterday, the New York Times acknowledged an error.  My name had been misspelled in the April 1996 article.  There was a correction in last Sunday's Times on page 2.  Four years later!
   An Abuzz.com message mentioned this correction (search using "New York Times" and "Lisa Carparelli" and "Big Apple" as key words), and then added:

   As for your additional claim, our research establishes that the earliest known reference to "the Big Apple" as a nickname for New York City is in a 1909 book, "The Wayfarer in New York," by Edward S. Martin (Macmillan).  That reference is cited in a 1993 Oxford University Press book, "The City in Slang," by Irving Lewis Allen.
   So with respect, we do not share your belief that the term originated with two African-American stable hands.  At most, a reporter from The Morning Telegraph overhead it being used by stablehands and then popularized it.
   We are glad to correct the record on the spelling of your name, but we believe that's all the correction that is due.  (...)
--Lisa Carparelli, spokeswoman, The New York Times

   Is William Safire alive?
   Who made this judgment on The New York Times?  An etymologist or a reporter?
   "Our research establishes..."  We've ALL acknowledged that citation--me, Gerald Cohen, the RHHDAS.  It's taken out of context.  It was used metaphorically.
   Did you talk with Charles Gillett?  No?  Well, he's dead!  His obituary gave "Big Apple" credit to Damon Runyon.  I've mentioned this thousands of times, but that was never corrected.
   Has anyone seen my research?  Has anyone else checked out National Apple Month/Week in every single New York City newspaper for 1909, 1910, 1911, 1912, 1913, 1914, 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918, 1919, 1920, and so on?  "The Big Apple" was hiding all of those years, huh?
   "The Big Apple" was also hiding on every computer database we know, huh?
   Walter Winchell's early columns don't use "the Big Apple."  Ever think of why not?  Ever read through every single one of them?
   So "Big Apple Corner"--that was signed into law by the mayor--doesn't deserve any coverage at all?
   This is a disgrace to African-Americans, the John J. Fitz Gerald, to Charles Gillett, and, of course, to me.
   If William Safire is still alive, he should find out which reporters on his paper are dabbling in etymology.  And he should tell them they're wrong.  And he should write about it.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  6 01:40:22 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:40:22 EDT
Subject: Comfort Food
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.214022.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

COMFORT FOOD

   John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK has:

_comfort food._  Any food that a person considers to put him at ease, often as part of nostalgia for a favored childhood food.  Often it is of a soft consistency, like mashed potatoes.  In her book _Comfort Food_ (1986), Sue Kreitzman wrote of her subject...

   It wasn't exclusively "her" subject.
   I have "comfort pie" from at least the 1960s.  It may or may not have influenced the term.
   BON APPETIT, May 1978, cover: "Exclusive M.F.K. FISHER ON COMFORT FOODS."  The contents page has:

THE MIDNIGHT EGG AND OTHER REVIVERS...72
By M.F.K. Fisher--Foods that comfort!  Some well-chosen words from the doyenne of American food writers.

   The story on pg. 73, col. 1 begins:

   A cold potato at midnight...," and at about the turn of our century, a Midwestern writer put this haunting phrase in one of her forgotten essays, although I can find no reference to it.  I remember it clearly from when I first heard it in about 1940.  She was lonely.  She felt comforted, or perhaps merely revived, when she could sneak down to the silent family kitchen and pull out a boiled potato from a bowl of them in the icebox.  As I see it now, she ate it standing up in the shadows, without salt, but voluptuously, like a cat taking one mouseling from a nest and leaving the rest to fatten for another night.
   In general, there is a clear difference between revivers and comforters, of course aside from their equal importance in our survival.
   Most of us have a few private revivers, which we administer knowingly to ourselves, usually in the company of one or more companions.  Comforters we eat or drink alone.  Revivers demand a certain amount of public ceremony and can be cold or hot, no matter how plain, but comforters are a private ritual and almost always warm.

   Maybe I'll take out a nice big apple and cry some more for another ten years.


From amy at W-STS.COM  Tue Jun  6 03:46:21 2000
From: amy at W-STS.COM (Amy West)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 23:46:21 -0400
Subject: Berliner
In-Reply-To: <95991848401@europa.your-site.com>
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.234621.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:35:47 -0600
>From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
>Subject: Ich bin ein Berliner
>
>
>
>     ?Haven?t those chuckling ignoramuses ever heard of polysemy?  Even
>though ?Berliner? is also used in northern Grmany to mean ?jelly-filled
>doughnut,? when someone says ?Ich bin (ein) Berliner,? it means ?I am a
>male person from Berlin? only. ...
>
>      ?No intelligent native speaker of German tittered in Berlin when J.F.
>K. spoke, just as no native speaker of German, or one who does know this
>language, would titter if someone said ?Ich bin ein Wiener? or ?Hamburger?
>or ?Frankfurter.? Only a chuckling chucklehead would translate ?Ich bin ein
>Wiener? (?I am a male Viennese?) as ?I am a sausage? (or ?penis? or
>?ineffectual person? or ?jerk? or ?very serious student?) Only a tittering
>twit would translate ?Ich bin ein Hamburger? (?a male person from Hamburg?)
>as ?I am a meat patty? (or ?hobo? or ?beggar? or ?scarred prizefighter? or
>?inferior racing dog? or ?mixture of mud and skin nutrients?).  And only a
>babbling bubblebrain would translate ?Ich bin ein Frankfurter? (?a male
>person from Frankfurt?) as ?I am a long, smoked reddish sausage?...

I'd like to add the following:

1) I was familiar with the Berliner double-entendre *before* I spent
the summer in Kassel in 1988. There the Berliners were jelly-filled.

2) yep, it's more colloquial to leave out the definite article before
occupations and nationalities.

3) Aman evidently hasn't met any of my husband's relatives: the
Wursts ("sausage"). And, yes, Germans do laugh at it. Some German
(ahem, Bavarian) friends have teased him about it to his face, and my
poor father-in-law, Dick Wurst ("thick/fat sausage"), will be the
object of many a snigger when he travels to Germany in September.

>     ?As a male native of ?Bayern? (Bavaria), it is correct for me to state,
>?Ich bin ein Bayer,? ?I am a Bavarian.? If some ignoramus chuckles that it
>_really_ means ?I am an aspirin,? I?ll shove a wiener up his nose.??
>
>-----That concludes Aman?s article.

Well, that explains everything...he's a Bavarian.

---Amy "ain't no way I'm takin' that last name if I'm gonna be a
Germanist" West


From buku at GOODNET.COM  Tue Jun  6 03:11:43 2000
From: buku at GOODNET.COM (Victoria Pittman)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 20:11:43 -0700
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUN.2000.201143.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Please unsubscribe...Off to Europe for a few weeks.

Thanks
Victoria
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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  6 05:11:44 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 01:11:44 EDT
Subject: Berliner
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.011144.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BERLINER PFAUNKUCHEN

"I am a Berliner Pfaunkuchen."
--John F. Kennedy

   From OUR FRIENDS' RECIPES (Sioux City, Iowa, 1918), pg. 112:

   _BERLINER PFAUNKUCHEN_
   The day before needed cook until soft one pound prunes with several slices of lemon and sugar to sweeten.  Roll enough coffee cake dough on well-floured board to cover and cut into squares about two inches long.  Put in center of each one teaspoon chopped prunes which have been slightly warmed.  Now pinch the corners well together, round, turn upside down and put on well-floured board in warm place until light.  Drop in hot fat until brown and sprinkle with powdered sugar.

--------------------------------------------------------
   Next Tuesday (June 13th), I'll leave for a short research trip to Pittsburgh & Chicago.  It's hard to believe I ever held anything against Chicago!
   I'll try to say something nice about New York City:
   It's nice The New York Times can judge that my "Big Apple" work is wrong without seeing it.
   It's nice that The New York Times can judge that my other work wasn't plagiarized without investigating it.
   It's nice that the late Convention & Visitors Bureau President Charles Gillett now has his position filled by a woman whose sole qualification is that she had sex with the mayor.
   It's nice that Hillary Clinton is running for Senator in New York.
   I CAN'T DO IT!  I CAN'T DO IT!!


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  6 15:20:47 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:20:47 EDT
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.112047.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/5/2000 11:36:29 PM, buku at GOODNET.COM writes:

<< Please unsubscribe...Off to Europe for a few weeks.


Thanks

Victoria >>

this is not the way you do it--please find out HOW to unsubscribe and do it
properly


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  6 15:52:44 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:52:44 EDT
Subject: BERLINER, (TOILET/TERM) PAPER, & determiners
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.115244.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Amen!

If I say to a stranger in the next public-toilet stall, "Do you have the
paper?" they will not think I mean 'the newspaper' or 'your term paper'--even
though "the paper" would have to mean 'the newspaper' or 'your term paper' in
other pragmatic situations, and even though the normal way of requesting the
desired information would be "Do you have any paper?" They may think I am a
foreigner, however. (Or that I believe that this particular public toilet has
only one roll available to all.)


In a message dated 6/5/2000 11:20:07 PM, amy at W-STS.COM writes:

<< Haven t those chuckling ignoramuses ever heard of polysemy?  Even

>though ?Berliner  is also used in northern Grmany to mean ?jelly-filled

>doughnut,  when someone says ?Ich bin (ein) Berliner,  it means ?I am a

>male person from Berlin  only. >>


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun  6 15:57:30 2000
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 08:57:30 -0700
Subject: Pfaunkuchen
In-Reply-To: <c6.620b517.266de210@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.085730.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, it seems that that fancy recipe has omitted the central ingredient
of "Pfaunkuchen," which is a peacock. ... unless, Barry, you intended for
that first U to be an N instead.

But the combination of prunes and a peacock sounds irresistible, doesn't
it? Reminds one of that old Pennsylvania Dutch recipe for cumquats and
badger.

Peter R.

On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> BERLINER PFAUNKUCHEN
>
> "I am a Berliner Pfaunkuchen."
> --John F. Kennedy
>
>    From OUR FRIENDS' RECIPES (Sioux City, Iowa, 1918), pg. 112:
>
>    _BERLINER PFAUNKUCHEN_
>    The day before needed cook until soft one pound prunes with several slices of lemon and sugar to sweeten.  Roll enough coffee cake dough on well-floured board to cover and cut into squares about two inches long.  Put in center of each one teaspoon chopped prunes which have been slightly warmed.  Now pinch the corners well together, round, turn upside down and put on well-floured board in warm place until light.  Drop in hot fat until brown and sprinkle with powdered sugar.
>


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Tue Jun  6 16:16:48 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:16:48 -0700
Subject: BERLINER, (TOILET/TERM) PAPER, & determiners
In-Reply-To: <26.6a2a207.266e784c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.091648.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Although I agree with the thrust of your point, if someone in the next stall
to ask me if I had the paper, I would assume he wanted the newspaper and I
would hand him the sports section because I never read that part. If he had
a non-English accent, I might reply with, "Do you mean toilet paper?"

To me, asking, "Do you have any paper" requires "over there?" for it to be
understood as toilet paper.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
RonButters at AOL.COM

Amen!

If I say to a stranger in the next public-toilet stall, "Do you have the
paper?" they will not think I mean 'the newspaper' or 'your term
paper'--even
though "the paper" would have to mean 'the newspaper' or 'your term paper'
in
other pragmatic situations, and even though the normal way of requesting the
desired information would be "Do you have any paper?" They may think I am a
foreigner, however. (Or that I believe that this particular public toilet
has
only one roll available to all.)

In a message dated 6/5/2000 11:20:07 PM, amy at W-STS.COM writes:

<< Haven t those chuckling ignoramuses ever heard of polysemy?  Even

>though ?Berliner  is also used in northern Grmany to mean ?jelly-filled

>doughnut,  when someone says ?Ich bin (ein) Berliner,  it means ?I am a

>male person from Berlin  only. >>


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Jun  6 17:02:15 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:02:15 -0400
Subject: successful fires
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.130215.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GEORGE THOMPSON <thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU> writes:

>>>>>
     [...]  A very major gambler and criminal
power-broker and financier named Arnold Rothstein had been murdered.
An Irish-born cleaning woman who worked in the hotel where Rothstein
was last alive said that she had seen him talking to a man she
described as "a big feller, and as Irish as Paddy's pig".  The cops,
reasoning shrewdly, thought that the description was not
inappropriate for George McManus, who was considerably taller than 6
feet and who was on poor terms with Rothstein.  Nothing came of this.
 Rothstein's murder generated a lot of heat but even more pressure to
cover it up, and covered up it was.
<<<<<

Aha! So that's the reference of one of the half-stanzas in a long poem by Ogden
Nash that I memorized many years ago:
     See Rothstein pass like breath on a glass,
     The original Black Sox kid.
     He riffles the pack, riding piggyback
     On the killer whose name he hid.
We usually associate Nash with light verse in grotesquely long, unmetered lines
with absurd rhymes, but "A Tale of the 13th Floor" is a Halloween (or
Walpurgisnacht) ghost story/morality tale, rigorously rhymed and metered in the
stanzas of Oscar Wilde's "Ballad of Reading Gaol".

-- Mark

   Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist and Manager of Acoustic Data
          Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc.
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/

This document was created with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun  6 17:35:10 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:35:10 -0400
Subject: successful fires
In-Reply-To: <852568F6.005D96B9.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.133510.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:02 PM -0400 6/6/00, Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:
>GEORGE THOMPSON <thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU> writes:
>
>>>>>>
>     [...]  A very major gambler and criminal
>power-broker and financier named Arnold Rothstein had been murdered.
>An Irish-born cleaning woman who worked in the hotel where Rothstein
>was last alive said that she had seen him talking to a man she
>described as "a big feller, and as Irish as Paddy's pig".  The cops,
>reasoning shrewdly, thought that the description was not
>inappropriate for George McManus, who was considerably taller than 6
>feet and who was on poor terms with Rothstein.  Nothing came of this.
> Rothstein's murder generated a lot of heat but even more pressure to
>cover it up, and covered up it was.
><<<<<
>
>Aha! So that's the reference of one of the half-stanzas in a long poem by
>Ogden
>Nash that I memorized many years ago:
>     See Rothstein pass like breath on a glass,
>     The original Black Sox kid.
>     He riffles the pack, riding piggyback
>     On the killer whose name he hid.
>We usually associate Nash with light verse in grotesquely long, unmetered
>lines
>with absurd rhymes, but "A Tale of the 13th Floor" is a Halloween (or
>Walpurgisnacht) ghost story/morality tale, rigorously rhymed and metered
>in the
>stanzas of Oscar Wilde's "Ballad of Reading Gaol".
>
>-- Mark
>
and for the uninitiated, the "Black Sox kid" reference in the Nash line
Mark quotes is to Rothstein's legendary role (rumored or actually
confirmed?) as the major figure responsible for bribing the underpaid and
ill-treated 1919 Chicago White Sox to throw (deliberately lose) the World
Series of that year to the heavy underdog Cincinnati Reds.  (all very well
depicted in the John Sayles movie "Eight Men Out" from the Eliot Asinof
book of the same name.)  This, in turn, bequeathed us "Say it ain't so,
Joe" (supposedly a disillusioned kid beseeching Shoeless Joe Jackson, one
of the eight bribees later permanently banned from baseball) and,
eventually, "Field of Dreams".  Quite a legacy for Mr. Rothstein.

larry


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Jun  6 17:46:06 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:46:06 -0700
Subject: Berliner
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.104606.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> BERLINER PFAUNKUCHEN
>
> "I am a Berliner Pfaunkuchen."
> --John F. Kennedy
>
>    From OUR FRIENDS' RECIPES (Sioux City, Iowa, 1918), pg. 112:
>
>    _BERLINER PFAUNKUCHEN_

Pfannkuchen.  Somebody somewhere misread the first 'n'.

>    The day before needed cook until soft one pound prunes with several slices of lemon and sugar to sweeten.  Roll enough coffee cake dough on well-floured board to cover and cut into squares about two inches long.  Put in center of each one teaspoon chopped prunes which have been slightly warmed.  Now pinch the corners well together, round, turn upside down and put on well-floured board in warm place until light.  Drop in hot fat until brown and sprinkle with powdered sugar.

This sounds remarkably like Hamentaschen (or Homentaschen, if you'd prefer),
except that it's not folded triangularly.


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Tue Jun  6 18:37:47 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:37:47 -0400
Subject: Scottish word, +
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.143747.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a recently completed visit to the mainland of Orkney, someone gave me
a term that seems to have several meanings.  The word is ferrylouper.
As we were leaving the island, I picked up a copy of a local paper that
contained an article titled:  The Ferrylouper, A short story by Laura
Barnett.  In _The Orcadian_ (Kirkwall), 25 May 2000, page 19.

The word is mentioned at the following website:
http://www.landscaperesearch.org.uk/graphics/extra25/webster.htm

Aaron and others with more knowledge are expected to correct any errors
in my comments.  One person on Orkney used ferrylouper to refer to
English, in particular, who came to the island, bought property, and
stayed for about a year, before being driven out by the climatic
conditions.  He noted that you could often spot where such folk lived
because, typically, they painted their houses chalk white.  So, he might
point to a particularly white house, and say 'ferrylouper'.  Others used
the term to refer to any outsiders who stayed for a while.  One person
said that in the islands further north, it was used to refer even to the
typical resident of mainland Orkney, in the sense of being an outsider.
I encountered English visitors who claimed to have no knowledge of the
term.

------------

Before leaving the states, at BWI, I heard a dispatcher ask a shuttle
bus driver 'how is your hardball?'  The driver replied 'not good; a lot
of these people (the passengers) are from the long-term (parking) lot'.
Next to the driver was a tip box, containing only a few bills.  My
presumption was that hardball referred to tips.  Corrections
appreciated.

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Jun  6 19:47:35 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:47:35 -0700
Subject: 21 Reasons why the English language is hard to learn
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.124735.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 21 Reasons why the English language is hard to learn

     1.  The bandage was wound around the wound.

     2.  The farm was used to produce produce.

     3.  The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.

     4.  We must polish the Polish furniture.

     5.  He could lead if he would get the lead out.

     6.  The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert.

     7.  Since there is no time like the present, he thought it
           was time to present the present.

     8.  A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.

     9.  When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.

    10.  I did not object to the object.

    11.  The insurance was invalid for the invalid.

    12.  There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row.

    13.  They were too close to the door to close it.

    14.  The buck does funny things when the does are present.

    15.  A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer line.

    16.  To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow.

    17.  The wind was too strong to wind the sail.

    18.  After a number of injections my jaw got number.

    19.  Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear.

    20.  I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.

    21.  How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  6 20:48:09 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:48:09 EDT
Subject: toilet talk
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.164809.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, gee, my sense is that men in adjoining stalls do not ask each other for
ANYTHING unless absolutely necessary--that there is a sort of taboo against
speaking to strangers in public toilets (let alone making requests for
reading material!). If somebody asked me, "Do you have the newspaper over
there?" I would be stunned. Why would he think I had "the" newspaper in a
public toilet?

I grant you, if this were, say, a dormitory, where the inhabitants were more
or less known to each other, that would be a different matter. But I said
"strangers" and "public" toilet.

In a message dated 6/6/2000 11:18:03 AM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:

<< Although I agree with the thrust of your point, if someone in the next
stall

to ask me if I had the paper, I would assume he wanted the newspaper and I

would hand him the sports section because I never read that part. If he had

a non-English accent, I might reply with, "Do you mean toilet paper?"


To me, asking, "Do you have any paper" requires "over there?" for it to be

understood as toilet paper. >>


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Tue Jun  6 20:56:07 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:56:07 -0700
Subject: toilet talk
In-Reply-To: <ac.6098d7d.266ebd89@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.135607.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Good point. I would ignore the person in the next stall. My *interpretation*
would be that he was asking for a newspaper. If it were the dorm, I would
hand over the sports section.

I would probably assume that the person in the stall next to me *heard* me
turning the paper.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

BTW, when I said "non-English," I meant non-native.

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
RonButters at AOL.COM

Well, gee, my sense is that men in adjoining stalls do not ask each other
for
ANYTHING unless absolutely necessary--that there is a sort of taboo against
speaking to strangers in public toilets (let alone making requests for
reading material!). If somebody asked me, "Do you have the newspaper over
there?" I would be stunned. Why would he think I had "the" newspaper in a
public toilet?

I grant you, if this were, say, a dormitory, where the inhabitants were more
or less known to each other, that would be a different matter. But I said
"strangers" and "public" toilet.

In a message dated 6/6/2000 11:18:03 AM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:

<< Although I agree with the thrust of your point, if someone in the next
stall to ask me if I had the paper, I would assume he wanted the newspaper
and I
would hand him the sports section because I never read that part. If he had
a non-English accent, I might reply with, "Do you mean toilet paper?"

To me, asking, "Do you have any paper" requires "over there?" for it to be
understood as toilet paper. >>


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Jun  6 21:14:38 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:14:38 -0400
Subject: "soundbitten"
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.171438.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Observed in the wild:

...natural selection-- the evolutionary process most commonly soundbitten as
"survival of the fittest"

     N.Y._Times_, Tues 2000-5-30, p.D2.
     col. 2, para. 2
     Natalie Angier
     "A Conversation with Geoffrey Miller"

   Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist and Manager of Acoustic Data
         Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc.
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
                     (speaking for myself)


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  6 21:35:54 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:35:54 EDT
Subject: the vital importance of grammar in everyday life
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.173554.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/6/2000 3:58:06 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:

<< Good point. I would ignore the person in the next stall. My
*interpretation*

would be that he was asking for a newspaper. If it were the dorm, I would

hand over the sports section.


I would probably assume that the person in the stall next to me *heard* me

turning the paper. >>

Well, this just goes to demonstrate the vital importance of grammar in
everyday life! Here we see a case where a grammatical error could lead to not
getting toilet paper when it is really needed!

Good point yourself, gogaku. I should have made it clear that I was assuming
that I didn't actually HAVE a newspaper (I assume further that the majority
of people in toilet stalls do not have newspapers). Even so, since the use of
toilet paper in a toilet is pretty fundamental (no pun intended), I find it
difficult to believe that the interpretation of THE PAPER to mean 'the toilet
paper' would not occur to most people (despite the non-native use of the
determiner). Such an interpretation is made even more likely by the form of
the question--"Do you have the X?"--which entails that the questioner does
not know whether or not the hearer actually has X. Absent a rustling
newspaper, it is hard for me to see why 'newspaper' is a greatly better
interpretation than 'cigarette paper' or 'term paper'.


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun  6 21:41:41 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:41:41 -0700
Subject: toilet talk
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLADGECHFGAAAKHDNAEENEJAA.gogaku@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.144141.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I can't believe I'm joining this thread, which is becoming more amusing
every minute, but I have to second Benjamin's interpretation.  I would find
it highly irregular (?) to be addressed by my neighbor under those
circumstances, and especially odd to be asked for the newspaper, but that's
still how I would interpret "the paper" in that or any other context where
there hadn't been prior conversation that unambiguously identified which
kind of paper was being discussed.

Peter

P.S.  This does NOT mean, however, that I think anybody in that Berlin
crowd thought JFK was claiming relatives in the doughnut family.

--On Tue, Jun 6, 2000 1:56 PM -0700 Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM>
wrote:

> Good point. I would ignore the person in the next stall. My
> *interpretation* would be that he was asking for a newspaper. If it were
> the dorm, I would hand over the sports section.
>
> I would probably assume that the person in the stall next to me *heard* me
> turning the paper.
>
> Benjamin Barrett
> gogaku at ix.netcom.com
>
> BTW, when I said "non-English," I meant non-native.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
> RonButters at AOL.COM
>
> Well, gee, my sense is that men in adjoining stalls do not ask each other
> for
> ANYTHING unless absolutely necessary--that there is a sort of taboo
> against speaking to strangers in public toilets (let alone making
> requests for reading material!). If somebody asked me, "Do you have the
> newspaper over there?" I would be stunned. Why would he think I had "the"
> newspaper in a public toilet?
>
> I grant you, if this were, say, a dormitory, where the inhabitants were
> more or less known to each other, that would be a different matter. But I
> said "strangers" and "public" toilet.
>
> In a message dated 6/6/2000 11:18:03 AM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:
>
> << Although I agree with the thrust of your point, if someone in the next
> stall to ask me if I had the paper, I would assume he wanted the newspaper
> and I
> would hand him the sports section because I never read that part. If he
> had a non-English accent, I might reply with, "Do you mean toilet paper?"
>
> To me, asking, "Do you have any paper" requires "over there?" for it to be
> understood as toilet paper. >>



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  6 21:41:22 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:41:22 EDT
Subject: Pfaunkuchen
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.174122.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  The book said "pfaunkuchen," so that's what I typed.  I thought it might have been wrong.
  There are a number of interesting recipes (some German)in the book: Mohn Kipfel; Snow Balls; German Coffee Cake No. 1; German Coffee Cake No. 2; Schnecken; Bundt Cake; Twist Bread.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Jun  6 23:38:42 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:38:42 -0700
Subject: the vital importance of grammar in everyday life
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.163842.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It seems to me that understanding what the person in the next stall meant by
"the paper" would hinge on whether the person had a non-English accent.  I can
imagine thinking that there was supposed to be a newspaper in the stall I was
in, assuming the person asking for it knew that (perhaps a regular in these
parts), and wanting me to hand it over. OTOH, if she has an accent, I might more
readily understand the need for toilet paper.

Which reminds me of an experience Louis Goldstein (? Larry, is that his last
name?) of Haskins Lab (at the time) related. As a phonologist, he was adept at
pronouncing foreign languages without a discernable accent.  He was in the
Netherlands somewhere, and knew some Dutch.  He would go into a shop, made some
simple inquiries in Dutch, at which point the shopkeeper would respond with a
fluent stream of Dutch which he could not understand.  Since his pronunciation
was impeccable, the shopkeepers would determine that Louis difficulty with
understanding or producing words stemmed from the fact that he was retarded!
Apparently this happened more than once.  I don't know if he decided to try it
just as an experiment after awhile.

Just goes to show the advantage of an accent...
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "The Angry Child" Aardman Animations

RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/6/2000 3:58:06 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:
>
> << Good point. I would ignore the person in the next stall. My
> *interpretation*
>
> would be that he was asking for a newspaper. If it were the dorm, I would
>
> hand over the sports section.
>
> I would probably assume that the person in the stall next to me *heard* me
>
> turning the paper. >>
>
> Well, this just goes to demonstrate the vital importance of grammar in
> everyday life! Here we see a case where a grammatical error could lead to not
> getting toilet paper when it is really needed!


From gibbens at EROLS.COM  Wed Jun  7 00:46:27 2000
From: gibbens at EROLS.COM (Elizabeth Gibbens)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:46:27 -0400
Subject: Generation Jones
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.204627.0400.GIBBENS@EROLS.COM>

http://www.generationjones.com/

The creator of this Web site was featured on a nice little story at the end of tonight's Marketplace.

Elizabeth
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From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Wed Jun  7 01:21:36 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:21:36 -0700
Subject: the vital importance of grammar in everyday life
In-Reply-To: <33.615442e.266ec8ba@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.182136.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have to agree with Peter that this is more amusing than most threads.

First off, I want to stress that I am not trying to befuddle or irritate
Ron. My point is simply that my interpretation is different than his, and in
fact, when I first commented on this thread, I genuinely believed that Ron
had simply overlooked the normal interpretation. I believe this is a matter
of pragmatic interpretation as well as grammar.

I do read the newspaper in the bathroom (the room of refuge at home), but I
don't smoke (in or out of the restroom), so cigarette paper wouldn't occur
to me. As for term papers, well it just seems silly (even more than the
thread itself!) that someone might ask me for any dissertation much less
*the* dissertation in the john.

This is why if the questioner had a non-native accent, I might analyze what
part of his grammar was making the question strange. I might then figure out
that he means *any* toilet paper.

I can only interpret Ron's interpretation to mean that he doesn't and has
never thought of reading the newspaper in the bathroom, hence his
interpretation.

If I had no newspaper, my neighbor asked me for *the* paper, *and* I somehow
felt obliged to reply, I would say I didn't have *one*.

As for the grammar, if the form of the question were, "Is there any paper
over there?" I would assume toilet paper to be the object being asked for.
But, "Do you have the paper?" is definitely a newspaper to me. Not to say
that others don't have other interpretations.

Again, my earlier posts were not intended to be inflammatory, and I
apologize if they appeared that way.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
RonButters at AOL.COM

In a message dated 6/6/2000 3:58:06 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:

<< Good point. I would ignore the person in the next stall. My
*interpretation* would be that he was asking for a newspaper. If it were the
dorm, I would hand over the sports section.

I would probably assume that the person in the stall next to me *heard* me
turning the paper. >>

Well, this just goes to demonstrate the vital importance of grammar in
everyday life! Here we see a case where a grammatical error could lead to
not
getting toilet paper when it is really needed!

Good point yourself, gogaku. I should have made it clear that I was assuming
that I didn't actually HAVE a newspaper (I assume further that the majority
of people in toilet stalls do not have newspapers). Even so, since the use
of
toilet paper in a toilet is pretty fundamental (no pun intended), I find it
difficult to believe that the interpretation of THE PAPER to mean 'the
toilet
paper' would not occur to most people (despite the non-native use of the
determiner). Such an interpretation is made even more likely by the form of
the question--"Do you have the X?"--which entails that the questioner does
not know whether or not the hearer actually has X. Absent a rustling
newspaper, it is hard for me to see why 'newspaper' is a greatly better
interpretation than 'cigarette paper' or 'term paper'.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  7 02:07:02 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:07:02 EDT
Subject: I am the Sears Catalog
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.220702.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/6/2000 8:43:11 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:

<< Again, my earlier posts were not intended to be inflammatory, and I

apologize if they appeared that way. >>

Goodness no--this has been a most amusing and enlightening (and polite)
discussion, as far as I am concerned--enlightening because it makes it so
very clear how great is the roll of context in the interpretation of
utterances--including the mental state of the hearer.

I suspect if John Kennedy had been dressed as a sweet roll he would have been
understood differently.

I wonder if Benjamin Barrett is willing to concede that he might just also
possibly have simply assumed that the speaker made a slip of the tongue? I'm
certainly willing to concede that--because THE PAPER is idiomatic for
'today's newspaper'--I would at least have considered that as a possibility
(though, again, I would have ruled it out, I think, on the grounds that I did
not have a newspaper and that people do not ask for newspapers under such
circumstances--though they might well need to ask for toilet tissue).

Now what if the speaker had said, "Do you have the catalog"?

Perhaps I should make it clear that by a mistake in "grammar" I meant simply
a mistake in the use of the determiner, i.e., the use of THE instead of ANY.


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Wed Jun  7 02:54:17 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:54:17 -0500
Subject: I am the Sears Catalog
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.215417.0500.>

I hang my head in shame for butting in here, but it's also possible that in the original
posting the possibility existed that there was more than one stall but frequently only one
roll of toilet paper, which would then be "the paper." At least, in this scenario, there
would be little opportunity for complaining about whether it rolled over the top or out
from behind the roll--to say nothing about lids.
DMLance

RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> In a message dated 6/6/2000 8:43:11 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:
>
> << Again, my earlier posts were not intended to be inflammatory, and I
>
> apologize if they appeared that way. >>
>
> Goodness no--this has been a most amusing and enlightening (and polite)
> discussion, as far as I am concerned--enlightening because it makes it so
> very clear how great is the roll of context in the interpretation of
> utterances--including the mental state of the hearer.
>
> I suspect if John Kennedy had been dressed as a sweet roll he would have been
> understood differently.
>
> I wonder if Benjamin Barrett is willing to concede that he might just also
> possibly have simply assumed that the speaker made a slip of the tongue? I'm
> certainly willing to concede that--because THE PAPER is idiomatic for
> 'today's newspaper'--I would at least have considered that as a possibility
> (though, again, I would have ruled it out, I think, on the grounds that I did
> not have a newspaper and that people do not ask for newspapers under such
> circumstances--though they might well need to ask for toilet tissue).
>
> Now what if the speaker had said, "Do you have the catalog"?
>
> Perhaps I should make it clear that by a mistake in "grammar" I meant simply
> a mistake in the use of the determiner, i.e., the use of THE instead of ANY.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Wed Jun  7 04:27:45 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:27:45 -0700
Subject: On paper in a stall
In-Reply-To: <200006070400.VAA02499@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUN.2000.212745.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'll come to Don's defense with a bit more contextualizing. While I
certainly observe the usual taboo Ron mentioned about communicating in
public toilets (something we don't teach in ESL or anywhere -- ask Pinker
or Chomsky how we learn from negative evidence), I believe I may have
actually once heard the line, "Do you have the paper?", when sitting in
one side of a two-stall outhouse, supplied with only one roll of toilet
paper. (For you urbanites, perhaps "outhouse" may need interpretation.)
        I could imaginatively contextualize the line to refer to "the
newspaper", in a dorm or somesuch where it was the custom to leave the
morning newspaper in the bathroom to be perused by occupants whiling away
their time on the john, so that the appropriate presuppositions were in
place.
        Interesting to introspect on how we understand utterances at all.
           --Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  7 05:47:09 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 01:47:09 EDT
Subject: Swap Spit; New Cockney Rhyming Slang
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.014709.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SWAP SPIT

   Like "suck face," only different.
   From the NEW YORK POST, 7 June 2000, pg. 10, col. 1:

   "Sex and the City" star _Chris Noth_ sidled up to _Winona Ryder_ and proceeded to swap spit with the "Girl, Interrupted" star for "at least 25 minues," a spy said.

--------------------------------------------------------
NEW COCKNEY RHYMING SLANG

   From the NEW YORK POST, 7 June 2000, pg. 10, col. 5:

   Celebrity culture has overtaken Britain's rhyming slang.  _Britney Spears_ means "beers" as in "Give us a couple of Britneys, luv."  _Chevy Chase_ is "face."  _Lou Reed_ is "speed," the drug.  _Steve McQueen_'s is "jeans."  _Winona Ryder_ is "cider."  _Donald Trump_ is new slang for "dump."  And can you guess what _Brad Pitt_ means to a Cockney?

--------------------------------------------------------
NEW GIRLS CLUB

   A network news broadcast today (ABC News?) used the phrase "New Girls Club/Network," in contrast to "Old Boys Club."  It was pointed out that, in the Fortune 500, there are only 3 female CEOs.  Women are not advancing up the corporate ladder, so they're becoming entreprenuers in a "New Girls Network."
   It needs a good Wall Street Journal article or two to stick.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  7 06:13:49 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 02:13:49 EDT
Subject: Mama Leone & Trader Vic
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.021349.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I went to the Strand Used Bookstore last weekend and bought some old (1968) cookbooks.  The Mama Leone & Trader Vic books were only $4 each!

--------------------------------------------------------
LEONE'S ITALIAN COOKBOOK (1968)
by Gene Leone

   There's a foreword by Dwight D. Eisenhower!  Gene Leone had cooked some at West Point.
   Mother Leone opened her New York City restaurant on April 27, 1906.  The big question is--when did she first introduce these items to the menu?

Pg. 5--"Spumoni, Fat' in Casa."  On opening day 1906?  OED has 1922 for spumoni.
Pg. 70--"Spaghettini."
Pg. 74--"Ziti."
Pg. 76--"Spinach Noodles."
Pg. 77--"Ravioli."
Pg. 78--"Lasagne."
Pg. 81--"Cannelloni alla Romana."
Pg. 83--"Manicotti."
Pg. 84--"Gnocchi."
Pg, 123--"Deep-Sea Scampi Sauteed."
Pg. 132--"Chicken Cacciatora."
Pg. 168--"Veal Cutlet Parmigiana."  "This was one of our most popular dishes.  On a busy night we would serve as many as 2,500 portions."
Pg. 169--"Veal Scaloppine Piccata."  Veal Scaloppine is not in the OED!
Pg. 203--"A Hero Sandwich."
Pg. 224--"Espresso Granita (coffee ice)."
Pg. 226--"Zabaglione."
Pg. 230--"Canoli."
Pg. 231--"Zeppole di San Giuseppe."  OED has 1976 for Zeppole.
Pg. 233--"Cappucino."  "I have been told that this drink got its name from the coffee-colored habits of Italian monks.  Cappucino is usally made in the regular espresso machine."

--------------------------------------------------------
TRADER VIC'S PACIFIC ISLAND COOKBOOK:
WITH SIDE TRIPS TO KONG KONG, SOUTHEST ASIA, MEXICO, AND TEXAS (1968)

   Too much to go over in detail, but two interesting items.

Pg. 195--"Nachos."  In the Texas section.  "This next tidbit is a Mexican version of the old melted cheese and cracker bit, with a bit of jalapeno pepper."
Pg. 189--"Pina Fria."  In the Mexico section.  No "Pina Colada" is here.  This drink contains 2 ounces pineapple juice, 2 slice pineapple, 1 ounce lemon juice, 1 ounce light rum.


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Wed Jun  7 08:23:15 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 03:23:15 -0500
Subject: "Say it ain't so, Joe" (WAS: successful fires)
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.032315.0500.>

Mark Mandel took this thread down a side path by citing George
Thompson's message:

>>>>>
     [...]  A very major gambler and criminal power-broker and financier
named Arnold Rothstein had been murdered. An Irish-born cleaning woman
who worked in the hotel where Rothstein was last alive said that she had
seen him talking to a man she described as "a big feller, and as Irish
as Paddy's pig".  The cops, reasoning shrewdly, thought that the
description was not inappropriate for George McManus, who was
considerably taller than 6 feet and who was on poor terms with
Rothstein.  Nothing came of this.  Rothstein's murder generated a lot of
heat but even more pressure to cover it up, and covered up it was.
<<<<<

Mark then said:

>>>>>>>>
Aha! So that's the reference of one of the half-stanzas in a long poem
by Ogden Nash that I memorized many years ago:
     See Rothstein pass like breath on a glass,
     The original Black Sox kid.
     He riffles the pack, riding piggyback
     On the killer whose name he hid.
We usually associate Nash with light verse in grotesquely long,
unmetered lines with absurd rhymes, but "A Tale of the 13th Floor" is a
Halloween (or Walpurgisnacht) ghost story/morality tale, rigorously
rhymed and metered in the stanzas of Oscar Wilde's "Ballad of Reading
Gaol".

-- Mark

   Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist and Manager of Acoustic Data
          Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc.
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/

This document was created with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.
<<<<<<<<<<

To which Laurence Horn replied:

> and for the uninitiated, the "Black Sox kid" reference in the Nash line
> Mark quotes is to Rothstein's legendary role (rumored or actually
> confirmed?) as the major figure responsible for bribing the underpaid and
> ill-treated 1919 Chicago White Sox to throw (deliberately lose) the World
> Series of that year to the heavy underdog Cincinnati Reds.  (all very well
> depicted in the John Sayles movie "Eight Men Out" from the Eliot Asinof
> book of the same name.)  This, in turn, bequeathed us "Say it ain't so,
> Joe" (supposedly a disillusioned kid beseeching Shoeless Joe Jackson, one
> of the eight bribees later permanently banned from baseball) and,
> eventually, "Field of Dreams".  Quite a legacy for Mr. Rothstein.
>
> larry

"Say it ain't so, Joe":

Some of the Sox were bribed to throw the 1919 World Series, and they
earned their illegal pay.  That much is certain.  Shoeless Joe Jackson
may very well have been one of the culprits. It's a matter of record
that he was banned from baseball in connection with the Black Sox
scandal.  It might be well, however, to use a word like "allegedly" when
declaring that Jackson himself either took a bribe or had a conscious
part in losing any of the 1919 World Series games.

Shoeless Joe Jackson was one of the great athletic heroes of his time.
He was so admired that his partisans refused to believe that anyone
would even dare to offer him a bribe to throw a game.  They vociferously
rejected the notion that their great hero actually did anything worse
than have a few bad days on the field during that Series. Jackson
supporters have argued, ever since, that there was no definitive proof
that Jackson was one of those who took the bribes and threw the games.

The "Say it ain't so, Joe" story -- and reports of how Jackson reacted
on hearing the question -- became part of the argument.  People on both
sides alleged that Jackson's reaction clearly settled the question in
their favor. It's an interesting case of belief triumphing over
evidence, since it's not at all certain that any disillusioned kid ever
asked Shoeless Joe the famous question in a face-to-face, live
encounter. The whole thing could have been the invention of a newspaper
reporter. In any event, the ranks of the Jackson supporters thinned
considerably when the banning decision came down.  Twenty years later,
anyone who remembered Jackson at all remembered him for his (ahem)
ALLEGED participation in the scandal.

There's a recondite reflection of the public acceptance of Jackson's
involvement in the scandal in a series of Big Band recordings made
sometime between 1938 and 1942.  In that era, Benny Goodman had an
exclusive contract to record only for RCA records. His contract also
banned the use of the name of the Benny Goodman orchestra without RCA
permission.  The ban did not keep Goodman's sidemen from making quite a
few recordings for other companies; they simply listed some other member
of the Goodman crew as the bandleader.  One remarkable series of 78 rpm
recordings lists just about all the Goodman people as performers --
except the clarinet player.  He is listed as "Shoeless John Jackson".
Nobody by that name ever played any live dates or made any other
recordings with members of the Goodman band.  It has been years since I
heard the recordings (and if you know where to get hold of a copy,
please tell me!), but my memory of the performances is that Shoeless
John Jackson had to have been Benny Goodman himself.  The name was a
deliberate giveaway, but the sound of the clarinet was unmistakable
anyhow.

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!

P.S.: I have a vague memory that the Ogden Nash poem has more to do with
Arnold Rothstein than a mere passing reference to his possible
involvement with the Black Sox Scandal.

What I think I recall is that Rothstein lingered at death's door for
some time, not consciously reacting to his surroundings but talking
non-stop nevertheless. Taken individually, his sentences are supposed to
have been grammatical, but the ensemble simply made no sense.  One
recurring theme was something about "shuffle and deal".  If my memory is
connected to the real facts at all, there was supposed to have been a
police stenographer writing down whatever Rothstein said in his dying
delirium, in hopes that he would at least name his killer.  (Or, as
elaborated in fictional reports of his death, in hopes that he might
either incriminate some of his associates or reveal where and how he had
hidden the bulk of his illicit wealth.) If Rothstein did reveal anything
in his ravings, nobody was able to make sense of what he said. Hence
Nash's "The killer whose name he hid".

The story I report in this postscript is FWIW.  I wouldn't know where or
how to start searching for confirmation or contradiction; it's just a
fugitive memory from I don't know where.  The story of Benny Goodman
recording as "Shoeless John Jackson", on the other hand, is fairly well
known to dedicated Goodman fans.


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Wed Jun  7 11:20:45 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:20:45 -0400
Subject: Vietnam slang article in TRUE (April 1966) (LONG!)
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.072045.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000 4:59 PM
Subject: Vietnam slang article in TRUE (April 1966) (LONG!)



>      The number 33 (in Vietnamese, "bamouiba") is always associated with
the
>best selling local brand of beer: "33 Export."  (I noticed numbers on


This nicely echoes Rolling Rock's 33. Or did somebody point this out
already?

bkd


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Wed Jun  7 12:08:36 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:08:36 +0100
Subject: Scottish word, +ginger
In-Reply-To: <393D44FA.690E599D@ark.ship.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.130836.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 6/6/00 7:37 PM, GSCole wrote:

> In a recently completed visit to the mainland of Orkney, someone gave me
> a term that seems to have several meanings.  The word is ferrylouper.

My Concise Scots Dictionary doesn't have "ferrylouper", but for "loup" it
has:
1. leap, spring, dash
3. spring to one's feet
5. dance, caper, hop about
6. walk with a long springing step, bound
8. _also vt, of things_ spring, fly (in some direction); pop out of a
(receptacle or covering)

n. 1. Leap, jump, spring

These definition hint at some sort of transience, in this case, rapidly
going from the ferry, landing on Orkney, saying "It's bloody cold, wet and
windy here" and hopping back on the ferry.

More importantly, according to the dictionary, seems to be prominently from
Shetland and Orkney (I'm sure some Worfians could relate this to the weather
:-) ).


As for ginger, I took an informal survey of linguists.  "Ginger" can mean
any shade of red hair, for some strawberry blond is excluded (for those that
knew what strawberry blond was), for others, strawberry blond is included,
for some it included the brownish side, for others, definitely not.  The
group was a mixture of English and Scots.  It was about as useful as asking
how long a piece of string is.  As for why ginger is red and not, say, a
sandy blond shade, I don't know.  Ah, but I have my CSD here....

For _gingerbreid_ (ginger only has "ginger"), in addition to ginger bread,
the definition is:
2. adj. gaudy, extravagant; unsubstantial
[laME = n; ME _gingerbreed_, _gingebras_, OF _gigembras_ ginger conserve]

It looks like it's a circle back to ginger marmalade.  I'm going to assume
that ginger conserve has a reddish tint, and that got carried through to a
Scots borrowing...

--Aaron


________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
  --Death


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Wed Jun  7 13:46:46 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:46:46 -0500
Subject: the vital importance of grammar in everyday life
In-Reply-To: <33.615442e.266ec8ba@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.084646.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Are there gender differences, I wonder?

--Bob

At 05:35 PM 6/6/00 EDT, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>In a message dated 6/6/2000 3:58:06 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:
>
><< Good point. I would ignore the person in the next stall. My
>*interpretation*
>
>would be that he was asking for a newspaper. If it were the dorm, I would
>
>hand over the sports section.
>
>
>I would probably assume that the person in the stall next to me *heard* me
>
>turning the paper. >>
>
>Well, this just goes to demonstrate the vital importance of grammar in
>everyday life! Here we see a case where a grammatical error could lead to not
>getting toilet paper when it is really needed!
>
>Good point yourself, gogaku. I should have made it clear that I was assuming
>that I didn't actually HAVE a newspaper (I assume further that the majority
>of people in toilet stalls do not have newspapers). Even so, since the use of
>toilet paper in a toilet is pretty fundamental (no pun intended), I find it
>difficult to believe that the interpretation of THE PAPER to mean 'the toilet
>paper' would not occur to most people (despite the non-native use of the
>determiner). Such an interpretation is made even more likely by the form of
>the question--"Do you have the X?"--which entails that the questioner does
>not know whether or not the hearer actually has X. Absent a rustling
>newspaper, it is hard for me to see why 'newspaper' is a greatly better
>interpretation than 'cigarette paper' or 'term paper'.
>
>


From ookpik at MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Jun  7 14:01:39 2000
From: ookpik at MINDSPRING.COM (J. Katherine Rossner)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:01:39 -0400
Subject: the vital importance of grammar in everyday life
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000607084646.007c6bc0@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.100139.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:46 AM 6/7/00 -0500, Robert S. Wachal wrote:
>Are there gender differences, I wonder?
>
>--Bob

I was thinking that!  Clearly there are--one of the males responding said
something about an etiquette of "not hearing" others using the facilities;
that's not the case for women.  And I have both heard, and asked, "any
paper over there?" or "could you pass me some paper?"

Katherine
--
Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche is chaunge
Withinne a thousand yere, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem, and yit they spake hem so.
        - Chaucer, "Troilus and Criseyde"


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Jun  7 16:24:57 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:24:57 -0700
Subject: I am the Sears Catalog
In-Reply-To: <61.43db770.266f0846@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.092457.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, yeah, but the roll gets smaller as you use it...:)

--On Tue, Jun 6, 2000 10:07 PM +0000 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> it makes it so
> very clear how great is the roll of context in the interpretation of
> utterances



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Wed Jun  7 16:44:21 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:44:21 -0400
Subject: I am the Sears Catalog
In-Reply-To: <61.43db770.266f0846@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.124421.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"the roll of context"? Wonderful!

At 10:07 PM 6/6/00 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 6/6/2000 8:43:11 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:
>
><< Again, my earlier posts were not intended to be inflammatory, and I
>
>apologize if they appeared that way. >>
>
>Goodness no--this has been a most amusing and enlightening (and polite)
>discussion, as far as I am concerned--enlightening because it makes it so
>very clear how great is the roll of context in the interpretation of
>utterances--including the mental state of the hearer.
>
>I suspect if John Kennedy had been dressed as a sweet roll he would have been
>understood differently.
>
>I wonder if Benjamin Barrett is willing to concede that he might just also
>possibly have simply assumed that the speaker made a slip of the tongue? I'm
>certainly willing to concede that--because THE PAPER is idiomatic for
>'today's newspaper'--I would at least have considered that as a possibility
>(though, again, I would have ruled it out, I think, on the grounds that I did
>not have a newspaper and that people do not ask for newspapers under such
>circumstances--though they might well need to ask for toilet tissue).
>
>Now what if the speaker had said, "Do you have the catalog"?
>
>Perhaps I should make it clear that by a mistake in "grammar" I meant simply
>a mistake in the use of the determiner, i.e., the use of THE instead of ANY.


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  7 17:09:26 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:09:26 EDT
Subject: Kickoff Curse; ScandinAsian
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.130926.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

KICKOFF CURSE

   From the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, 7 June 2000, David Bianculli tv column, pg. 78, col. 1:

_First curse: Another one bites the dust_
   Curses!  The Kickoff Curse has struck again! (...)
   Basically, the Kickoff Curse predicts that whichever new fall series is the first to premiere will not survive the freshman year.  It's almost like being first in line for the guillotine.  It's not a head start; it's heads off. (...)
   (Col. 2) Yet, when it comes to taking shows from the fall schedule and giving them a head start, the results are so reliably dismal that I long ago identified it, and began tracking it as TV's Kickoff Curse. (...)
   (Col. 4) Right now, the Kickoff Curse is right 87% of the time, and hasn't been wrong since 1991.

--------------------------------------------------------
SCANDINASIAN

   From NEW YORK PRESS, June 7-13, 2000, pg. 41, col. 2:

   A new restaurant called _Tja!_ (301 Church St., corner of Walker, 226-8900), serving what it calls "ScandinAsian" cuisine--a fusion that evokes the unlikely prospect of intelligent Swedes, manly Japanese lumberjacks and _Charlie_ counting lingonberries with abaci--has opened in _Tribeca_.

  Can a new ScandinAsian rock group called "JABBA" be far behind?


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Wed Jun  7 18:50:59 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:50:59 -0400
Subject: On-line hip-hop dictionary...
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.145059.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In today's Wall Street Journal (7 June 2000), on page 1, 'center' column
is an article about an on-line hip-hop dictionary, and its creator.
Titled:  Mr. Atoon Is Down With Rap Slang, And That's an Up Thing//His
Hot Hip-Hop Dictionary Is a Favorite in the 'Hood' Pretty Fly for a
White Guy.  The dictionary link is at:
http://www.rapdict.org/

George S. Cole  gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Wed Jun  7 21:01:32 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:01:32 -0500
Subject: a letter in cant, 1855
In-Reply-To: <38B2DC5F.43BECB94@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.160132.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The following letter in criminal's cant was published in The Broadway
Belle, October 29, 1855, p. 1, cols. 3-4.  This was edited by
America's first great pornographer, George Thompson.  This issue and
the other issues from that October are in the Rare Book Room of the
New York Public Library.  I'm told by someone preparing a book on
Thompson that there is a fuller file in the Boston Public Library.

        My knibbs has been faked by the napping cullys

for being budgey, and, in default of tipping ten slums, I

have been sherried in this quisby cap for ten days.  Nixey

tipping the slums but sherry down the kid with my other

benjamin and a slum or two, for the peck is awful quisby.

I shall weed raw about this cab when I sherry hence.  the

crib is ruled by mokes and Micks.  My health is rummy.


This letter hardly needs explaining, of course, but the editor
offered a translation that I will pass along:  "I have been taken up
by the police for intoxication, and, in default of paying a fine of
ten dollars, I have been sentenced to this wretched place for ten
days.  Do not pay the fine, but send the boy down with my other coat,
and a dollar or two, for the food is miserable.  I shall have
something strange to tell you about this place when I go out.  The
establishment is ruled by negroes and Irishmen.  My health is good."

I would have thought "weed raw" would mean "speak strongly" rather
than "have something strange to tell".

RHHDAS has the following dates:
benjamin:       RHHDAS: 1859; budgey: Not in RHHDAS; Budge, noun (=
liquor): 1853, 1863, 1880, etc.; cab: Not in RHHDAS; cap: Not in
RHHDAS; crib: RHHDAS: (1c) 1907; cully: RHHDAS 1846, 1848, 1854,
etc.; faked: Not in RHHDAS, this sense; kid:    RHHDAS: 1851 (citing
a book by George Thompson); mick: RHHDAS: 1850, 1854, 1859, etc.;
moke: RHHDAS: 1847, 1856, 1859, etc.; napping: Not in RHHDAS as
adjective; nap, verb, 1791, 1807, then a break to 1963, citing a
play on kidnapping; knibbs: RHHDAS: 1847, 1862, 1867; nixey: RHHDAS:
1877

GAT


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Wed Jun  7 20:20:17 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:20:17 -0700
Subject: I am the Sears Catalog
In-Reply-To: <61.43db770.266f0846@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.132017.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hee, hee. Good.

I think Rudy's outhouse scenario shows definitively that interpretation is
purely contextual/pragmatics. It seems likely that someone not familiar with
Al Bundy's reading habits would be more likely to interpret "the paper" as
toilet paper.

Having had this discussion, now, I don't think I'll ever be able to be asked
for "the paper" in the john again without simply replying, "Today's or are
you out?"

I think the possibility of interpreting my neighbor as making a slip of the
tongue would be directly dependant on how close his accent is to mine. (Or
in other words, yes.)

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
RonButters at AOL.COM

In a message dated 6/6/2000 8:43:11 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes:

<< Again, my earlier posts were not intended to be inflammatory, and I

apologize if they appeared that way. >>

Goodness no--this has been a most amusing and enlightening (and polite)
discussion, as far as I am concerned--enlightening because it makes it so
very clear how great is the roll of context in the interpretation of
utterances--including the mental state of the hearer.

I suspect if John Kennedy had been dressed as a sweet roll he would have
been
understood differently.

I wonder if Benjamin Barrett is willing to concede that he might just also
possibly have simply assumed that the speaker made a slip of the tongue? I'm
certainly willing to concede that--because THE PAPER is idiomatic for
'today's newspaper'--I would at least have considered that as a possibility
(though, again, I would have ruled it out, I think, on the grounds that I
did
not have a newspaper and that people do not ask for newspapers under such
circumstances--though they might well need to ask for toilet tissue).

Now what if the speaker had said, "Do you have the catalog"?

Perhaps I should make it clear that by a mistake in "grammar" I meant simply
a mistake in the use of the determiner, i.e., the use of THE instead of ANY.


From pds at VISI.COM  Thu Jun  8 01:56:00 2000
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:56:00 -0500
Subject: I am the Sears Catalog
In-Reply-To: <61.43db770.266f0846@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUN.2000.205600.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RonButters at AOL.COM is:
>certainly willing to concede that--because THE PAPER is idiomatic for
>'today's newspaper'--I would at least have considered that as a possibility
>(though, again, I would have ruled it out, I think, on the grounds that I did
>not have a newspaper and that people do not ask for newspapers under such
>circumstances--though they might well need to ask for toilet tissue).
>
>Now what if the speaker had said, "Do you have the catalog"?

The two-holer my grandparents used out on the ND prairie was still standing
when I was a kid (in the '50s).  It is highly likely that at one time or
another one of them asked, "Do you have the catalog?"



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  8 04:24:19 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:24:19 EDT
Subject: Shill Bidding; The Art of Eating Well
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.002419.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SHILL BIDDING

   The FBI announced today that it's looking into "shill bidding," or "self bidding," on eBay.  That's when friends bid on their own stuff to drive up the price.  It's illegal.
   The term is not in the online OED.

--------------------------------------------------------
THE ART OF EATING WELL (1891)
by Pellegrino Artusi (1820-1911),
1996 translation by Kyle M. Phillips III

   The cover announces that this is "Italy's most treasured cookbook."
   Why did it take over 100 years for it to be translated?  Will OED consider this book's entries for Italian food?
   It's interesting to compare this with the Mother Leone Italian cookbook.  "Spumoni" is not here, but Mother Leone's restaurant served spumoni on its opening day in 1906.  "Pizza" is here in 1891, as are cannelloni, focaccia, frittata, gelato, gnocchi, veal scaloppine, semolina, and much more.
   "Cappuccino" is not here, but "espresso coffee" is on pg. 456.  Does this count as an "espresso" cite?


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Thu Jun  8 08:23:34 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 04:23:34 -0400
Subject: Shill Bidding
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.042334.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000 12:24 AM
Subject: Shill Bidding; The Art of Eating Well


>SHILL BIDDING
>
>   The FBI announced today that it's looking into "shill bidding," or "self
bidding," on eBay.  That's when friends bid on their own stuff to drive up
the price.  It's illegal.
>   The term is not in the online OED.


On Lovejoy, this was called 'a ring', as in a ring of friends, accomplices,
cohorts, what have you, who would bid up the price at auction. Of course, I
have no idea how closely the TV series hewed to the written source, and how
accurately the books described the dodgy side of the British antique
business...

bkd


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Jun  8 12:34:46 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:34:46 -0400
Subject: Shill Bidding
In-Reply-To: <006201bfd122$d7308e00$8a70cec0@qwe.graphnet.com>
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.083446.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This seems to me to be an interesting case of "lexicon" (including
"lexicalized compositions") versus "transparent composition," a difficulty
which surely keeps real lexicographers awake at night. We know what a
"shill" is, and we know what "bidding" is. Therefore, we know what "shill
bidding" is (and it doesn't suprise me that it isn't in a dictionary). For
example, we know what "big" is, and we know what "dog" is. Therefore , we
know what a "big dog" is (and don't find it in the dictionary). I can
already think of lots of objections to that characterization (caricature?),
and I wonder what practicing lexicographers have to say about it these days.

I frankly hadn't thought much about it since I read Zgusta's magnificent
Manual of Lexicography some 25 years ago.

dInIs



>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bapopik at AOL.COM <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000 12:24 AM
>Subject: Shill Bidding; The Art of Eating Well
>
>
>>SHILL BIDDING
>>
>>   The FBI announced today that it's looking into "shill bidding," or "self
>bidding," on eBay.  That's when friends bid on their own stuff to drive up
>the price.  It's illegal.
>>   The term is not in the online OED.
>
>
>On Lovejoy, this was called 'a ring', as in a ring of friends, accomplices,
>cohorts, what have you, who would bid up the price at auction. Of course, I
>have no idea how closely the TV series hewed to the written source, and how
>accurately the books described the dodgy side of the British antique
>business...
>
>bkd


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Thu Jun  8 16:19:37 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:19:37 -0400
Subject: Rothstein, Shoeless Joe, & Nash
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.121937.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mike has taken us further down this scenic garden path with the following:

>>>>>
P.S.: I have a vague memory that the Ogden Nash poem has more to do with
Arnold Rothstein than a mere passing reference to his possible
involvement with the Black Sox Scandal.

What I think I recall is that Rothstein lingered at death's door for
some time, not consciously reacting to his surroundings but talking
non-stop nevertheless. Taken individually, his sentences are supposed to
have been grammatical, but the ensemble simply made no sense.  One
recurring theme was something about "shuffle and deal".  If my memory is
connected to the real facts at all, there was supposed to have been a
police stenographer writing down whatever Rothstein said in his dying
delirium, in hopes that he would at least name his killer.  (Or, as
elaborated in fictional reports of his death, in hopes that he might
either incriminate some of his associates or reveal where and how he had
hidden the bulk of his illicit wealth.) If Rothstein did reveal anything
in his ravings, nobody was able to make sense of what he said. Hence
Nash's "The killer whose name he hid".

The story I report in this postscript is FWIW.  I wouldn't know where or
how to start searching for confirmation or contradiction; it's just a
fugitive memory from I don't know where.  The story of Benny Goodman
recording as "Shoeless John Jackson", on the other hand, is fairly well
known to dedicated Goodman fans.
<<<<<

That story may well be behind Nash's reference, but I have quoted all of the
poem that relates to Rothstein. He figures as just one of a gallery of murder
victims and culprits.

-- Mark
"Someone's sent out the New Australian Grammar to Malaya nearly a
 century before it was invented, and I'm going to be all day
 sorting it out."     -- Diana Wynne Jones, _A Tale of Time City_


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Thu Jun  8 16:22:29 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:22:29 -0400
Subject: quote (was: the vital importance of grammar in everyday life)
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.122229.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"J. Katherine Rossner" <ookpik at MINDSPRING.COM> writes:

>>>>>
Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche is chaunge
Withinne a thousand yere, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem, and yit they spake hem so.
        - Chaucer, "Troilus and Criseyde"
<<<<<

Great! I'm adding that to my treasury of sigs!

-- Dr. Whom: Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist,
   and Philological Busybody
   a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Thu Jun  8 16:25:35 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:25:35 -0400
Subject: a letter in cant, 1855
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.122535.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the late fifties and the sixties, MAD Magazine used to insert
     It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide.
in random places. I have seen it glossed as
     It's crazy to bribe (= slip the dropsy to) a policeman in counterfeit
money.
but it's at least as much fun without the gloss.

-- Mark


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Jun  8 17:11:44 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:11:44 -0600
Subject: "Big Apple" 1909 reference
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.111144.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Barry Popik is correct in rejecting the 1909 attestation "the big apple"
(in reference to NYC) as an indication that this was already NYC's
nickname.  The quote says: "It [the Mid-West] inclines to think that the
big apple gets a disproportionate share of the national sap." "Big apple"
here means roughly "overweening big shot" and happens to refer to NYC--but
only in this context!  "Big apple" was not yet a nickname for NYC!  It's as
if I referred to Washington D.C. as "the big enchilada" in a discussion of
political power;  but if I then went to the train station and asked for a
ticket to The Big Enchilada, the ticket-seller would have no idea where I
wanted to go.

     And when "the big apple" did emerge in print really in reference to
NYC (1921ff.), for at least six years or so  it never designated NYC as a
whole, but rather just the NYC racetracks;  a bit more broadly, "the big
apple" referred to the big time in horseracing.   And it was never "in the
big apple" but rather "on the big apple," i.e., on the racetracks.

   Also, Barry Popik has never said that the term originated with the two
African-American stable hands in New Orleans, 1921.  Rather, the
conversation of the two stable hands, 1921, is the earliest point to which
"the big apple" (as a reference to the NYC racetracks) can be traced. And
yes, turf writer John J. FitzGerald did overhear their conversation;  he
twice gave them credit in print for introducing him to "the big apple."

     Incidentally,  I believe that the research that I and Barry Popik have
done on "The Big Apple" is accepted by all scholars who have looked at it.
The NY Times spokeswoman who wrote to Barry Popik cited Irving Allen's book
as her source for evidence that "the big apple" existed already in 1909 as
NYC's nickname.   But Professor Allen relied on me for his information on
"The Big Apple" and never raised objections to the interpretation  Barry
Popik and I were advancing.  Note his 1993 _The City in Slang_, p. 63: "A
controversy ensued over the origin, date, and the first meaning of "The Big
Apple," but the story is now getting straightened out by the efforts of
slang etymologist Gerald L. Cohen and others." (Among "others" read:
primarily Barry Popik, who has done remarkable research on the subject.)

-----Gerald Cohen
      Professor of Foreign Languages
     University of Missouri-Rolla
(research specialty: Etymology; author of _Origin of New York City's
Nickname, "The Big Apple"_ (=Forum Anglicum, vol. 19). Frankfurt am Main:
Peter Lang Verlag, 1991.---Several follow-up articles on this topic have
appeared in my _Studies in Slang_ series (Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang);
the "Big Apple" updates consist primarily of Barry Popik's valuable
contributions.)

>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Date:         Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:10:25 EDT
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
>Subject:      New York Times responds
>Comments: cc: gsnyder at observer.com
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>   Yesterday, the New York Times acknowledged an error.  My name had been
>misspelled in the April 1996 article.  There was a correction in last
>Sunday's Times on page 2.  Four years later!
>   An Abuzz.com message mentioned this correction (search using "New York
>Times" and "Lisa Carparelli" and "Big Apple" as key words), and then added:
>
>   As for your additional claim, our research establishes that the
>earliest known reference to "the Big Apple" as a nickname for New York
>City is in a 1909 book, "The Wayfarer in New York," by Edward S. Martin
>(Macmillan).  That reference is cited in a 1993 Oxford University Press
>book, "The City in Slang," by Irving Lewis Allen.
>   So with respect, we do not share your belief that the term originated
>with two African-American stable hands.  At most, a reporter from The
>Morning Telegraph overhead it being used by stablehands and then
>popularized it.
>   We are glad to correct the record on the spelling of your name, but we
>believe that's all the correction that is due.  (...)
>--Lisa Carparelli, spokeswoman, The New York Times
>....



gcohen at umr.edu


From Abatefr at CS.COM  Thu Jun  8 19:43:10 2000
From: Abatefr at CS.COM (Frank Abate)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:43:10 EDT
Subject: Shill Bidding
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.154310.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I can't speak for others, but in my lingo I refer to "transparent compounds" (e.g., *big dog*) vs. "idioms" (e.g., *big idea* in "What's the big idea?").  Yes, lexicographers don't enter transparent compounds, and do (try to) enter (in larger dicts, at least) idioms, but it is not always clear-cut when and how to do so.  Some expressions fall into a gray area (what about "big deal" or "big picture"?), and some quite common expressions ("in your dreams"; "duh"; "hel-LO-oo") are certainly lexical in content but somehow seem not to have entered dicts.

There is a distinction made by a French linguist (maybe someone out there knows who) between "idiome" (an idiom) and "idiotisme" (a way in which words are naturally put together according to the rules of the language, if learned and applied conventionally).  The idiomes are the things that dicts enter -- classic example, "kick the bucket".  The idiotismes are what practiced speakers of the language do when they use the syntactic rules of the language conventionally.  So the latter compounds are formally not lexical, though there are always examples where judgment may be needed to decide.  In the case of most dicts, the editorial judgment is usually influenced by the necessary constrictions of schedule and budget.

Frank Abate


American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> wrote:
>
> This seems to me to be an interesting case of "lexicon" (including
> "lexicalized compositions") versus "transparent composition," a difficulty
> which surely keeps real lexicographers awake at night. We know what a
> "shill" is, and we know what "bidding" is. Therefore, we know what "shill
> bidding" is (and it doesn't suprise me that it isn't in a dictionary). For
> example, we know what "big" is, and we know what "dog" is. Therefore , we
> know what a "big dog" is (and don't find it in the dictionary). I can
> already think of lots of objections to that characterization (caricature?),
> and I wonder what practicing lexicographers have to say about it these days.
>
> I frankly hadn't thought much about it since I read Zgusta's magnificent
> Manual of Lexicography some 25 years ago.
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Bapopik at AOL.COM <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000 12:24 AM
> >Subject: Shill Bidding; The Art of Eating Well
> >
> >
> >>SHILL BIDDING
> >>
> >>   The FBI announced today that it's looking into "shill bidding," or "self
> >bidding," on eBay.  That's when friends bid on their own stuff to drive up
> >the price.  It's illegal.
> >>   The term is not in the online OED.
> >
> >
> >On Lovejoy, this was called 'a ring', as in a ring of friends, accomplices,
> >cohorts, what have you, who would bid up the price at auction. Of course, I
> >have no idea how closely the TV series hewed to the written source, and how
> >accurately the books described the dodgy side of the British antique
> >business...
> >
> >bkd
>
>
> Dennis R. Preston
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
> preston at pilot.msu.edu
> Office: (517)353-0740
> Fax: (517)432-2736
>


From Abatefr at CS.COM  Thu Jun  8 20:16:41 2000
From: Abatefr at CS.COM (Frank Abate)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 16:16:41 EDT
Subject: Shill Bidding
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.161641.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry for the confusion all, but I crossed two terms up in my previous posting.  In the passage below, switch the uses of "idiome"
and "idiotisme".  "Idiotisme" is the term equivalent to English "idiom", as in the case of "kick the bucket".

Frank Abate

*********
There is a distinction made by a French linguist (maybe someone out there knows who) between "idiome" (an idiom) and "idiotisme" (a way in which words are naturally put together according to the rules of the language, if learned and applied conventionally).   The idiomes are the things that dicts enter -- classic example, "kick the bucket".  The idiotismes are what practiced speakers of the language do when they use the syntactic rules of the language conventionally.


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Jun  9 01:56:14 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 21:56:14 -0400
Subject: Shill Bidding
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.215614.0400.>

I wish I could recall some of the Panini sutras (concerning sandhis and samasas)
I learned in high school. Recently, thanks to bibliographic help from Ron
Butters, I studied some of the more modern stuff about noun+noun compounds. This
was in connection with a trademark like Pizza Hut, I think. The point I am trying
to make is that, because we know what a "shill" is and what "bidding" is, it
doesn't necessarily follow that we know what "shill bidding" is; it is not that
transparent. However, from the structure of the compound, we do know that it is a
kind of bidding just as we know that "bidding war" is a kind of war.  As a
practicing lexicographer lying sleepless in Niagara Falls, I would say there
isn't enough room in earthly dictionaries for all nontransparent compounds to be
entered and defined. They have to make the grade based on frequency of occurrence
in the language.

"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:

> This seems to me to be an interesting case of "lexicon" (including
> "lexicalized compositions") versus "transparent composition," a difficulty
> which surely keeps real lexicographers awake at night. We know what a
> "shill" is, and we know what "bidding" is. Therefore, we know what "shill
> bidding" is (and it doesn't suprise me that it isn't in a dictionary). For
> example, we know what "big" is, and we know what "dog" is. Therefore , we
> know what a "big dog" is (and don't find it in the dictionary). I can
> already think of lots of objections to that characterization (caricature?),
> and I wonder what practicing lexicographers have to say about it these days....


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  9 03:17:29 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:17:29 EDT
Subject: Edward Sandford Martin (and "Martini")
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.231729.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "But many things that are quintessentially New York came from out of town, starting with the city's nicknames. (...) New Orleans stable hands in the 1920's called New York and its racetracks 'The Big Apple,' a possible allusion to its jazz clubs."
--Anthony Ramirez, THE NEW YORK TIMES, 6 September 1998, sec. 14, pg. 1, col. 6.

   "So with respect, we do not share your belief that the term originated with two African-American stable hands.  At most, a reporter from The Morning Telegraph overhead it being used by stablehands and then popularized it."
--Lisa Carparelli, spokeswoman, THE NEW YORK TIMES (this week)

   Boy, are these folks consistent!  We've cited part of your work in the past, but the full story is not fit to print!
   The Times's latest excuse for not giving John J. Fitz Gerald credit for popularizing "the Big Apple" (and mentioning his three "Big Apple" columns, that would later directly influence Walter Winchell, Harlem jazz musicians, Charles Gillett, and that 1928 New York Times film cite found by Fred Shapiro and reported in AMERICAN SPEECH) is that one single 1909 metaphor used by Edward Sandford Martin.
   I'll now give you a closer look at Edward Sandford Martin.  Generally, if a term is in someone's vocabulary, he'll use it again.  Edward Sandford Martin was one of the most prolific writers in American history.
   He never used "big apple" again.
   It's not in WINDFALLS OF OBSERVATION (1893), LUCID INTERVALS (1901), POEMS AND VERSES (1902), THE WAR WEEK BY WEEK (1914), and WHAT'S AHEAD & MEANWHILE (essays 1920-1927).
   Martin was a founder of the HARVARD LAMPOON and the New York City humor magazine LIFE.  He wrote "The Editor's Easy Chair" for HARPER'S MAGAZINE.
   Since the New York Times now questions my work, I challenge the paper to find another Edward Sandford Martin "big apple" in any of his writings.
   I'm grateful that my name is now Barry "Popik," but still await that apology for not printing New York City's history.

MARTINI
   I checked the online OED (they're revising "M," so is "Martini" done?).  "Martini" is 1894.
   "Martini cocktail, please" is on page 298 of WINDFALLS OF OBSERVATION (1893) by Edward S. Martin.


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Fri Jun  9 12:45:37 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 07:45:37 -0500
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.074537.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
vulgarities were often uttered in silent films?

Bob Wachal


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun  9 13:25:23 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:25:23 -0400
Subject: Edward Sandford Martin (and "Martini")
In-Reply-To: <90.549397b.2671bbc9@aol.com> from "Bapopik@AOL.COM" at Jun 08,
 2000 11:17:29 PM
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.092523.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>  MARTINI
> I checked the online OED (they're revising "M," so is
> "Martini" done?).  "Martini" is 1894.  "Martini cocktail, please" is
> on page 298 of WINDFALLS OF OBSERVATION (1893) by Edward S. Martin.

We're just finishing up "Martini" now. Our earliest example is
1884 in the form "Martinez," the connection of which to "Martini"
is unclear, and 1888 for "Martini."

Jesse Sheidlower


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Fri Jun  9 15:32:43 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:32:43 -0500
Subject: Subway!
In-Reply-To: <B4FC74C5.1403%highbob@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.103243.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bill Gallo writes in Thursday's [New York] Daily News, Special
Section, p. 26:

"Subway has a few meanings in this town.  For instance, if you're in
a bar and the bartender suddenly yells, "Subway," that means he's
just picked up a nice tip left by an exiting customer."

I have never heard this exclamation.  For sure, it's never been
yelled as I left a bar.  Any of the barflies on this list familiar
with it?

Gallo is I think in his seventies -- old enough at least to have
been a Marine in WWII -- and a born New Yorker whose spent his
working career in NYC also.

GAT


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Fri Jun  9 14:42:52 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:42:52 -0400
Subject: Subway!
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.104252.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: GEORGE THOMPSON <thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Friday, June 09, 2000 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: Subway!


>"Subway has a few meanings in this town.  For instance, if you're in
>a bar and the bartender suddenly yells, "Subway," that means he's
>just picked up a nice tip left by an exiting customer."
>
>I have never heard this exclamation.  For sure, it's never been
>yelled as I left a bar.  Any of the barflies on this list familiar
>with it?


Never heard it in Northern New Jersey in the 90s...

bkd


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Jun  9 14:46:16 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:46:16 +0100
Subject: Subway!
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.154616.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Using the excuse of this subject heading to point out another US/UK
distinction:

If you see a sign in London marked 'subway' with an arrow pointing down,
it's pointing to a walkway under a road or train track.  It's not
pointing you the way to the Tube.

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Fri Jun  9 15:55:45 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:55:45 -0500
Subject: Lexicographer's dilemma
In-Reply-To: <70.203526f.2614b38e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.105545.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From the [New York] Daily News, Thursday, June 8, 2000, Special
Section, p. 26:

"There is a common New Yorkese kind of saying, "Sure, that and a
dollar fifty will get you a ride on the subway."

This is indeed a common way of stating that something is worthless, a
degree from a low-prestige college or in a scorned major, for
instance.  I've known it since the early 60's.  However, over 40
years -- it's not really 40 years since 1960, is it? -- the sum of
money has been adjusted upwards to allow for inflation, and the thing
to be bought has also varied.  I recollect:  "That and a nickle will
get you a cup of coffee," (and it really would, then) or "That and a
dime will get you today's paper" or a ride on the subway.

When the meaningful elements of a saying vary in this way, what does
a lexicographer do?  How can it be entered in a dictionary so that it
will be found?  About 8 years ago American Speech published a note
from me giving late 19th century occurences of similar variable
expressions:  "Your money [dough] is no good [doesn't go] in this
joint [town, up here]", expressing the idea that that the speaker
will pay for everything, and "I can do that standing on my head
[hands]", expressing disdain for a term of imprisonment.

GAT


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Jun  9 16:06:29 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:06:29 -0700
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
In-Reply-To: <E130Q0m-0005Rz-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.090629.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Have Londoners taken to calling the Underground "the tube"
indiscriminately?  I had it explained to me by a Londoner back in the 60s
that "tube" referred only to the routes created by underground drilling at
greater depths, like the Picadilly and Bakerloo Lines, and would not be
used of routes like the Circle Line, which were near enough to the surface
to be created by the "break and cover" method.  I think I even read the
same thing in some guide book.  I've taken it as gospel ever since, but
maybe it was always more technical than colloquial.

(The break-and-cover lines always seemed "friendlier" to me than the tube
lines.  It always seemed that the Picadilly Line trains came bursting
violently out of their tunnel into the station, as if they were perpetually
angry at being confined to that little tube.)

Peter

--On Fri, Jun 9, 2000 3:46 PM +0100 Lynne Murphy <lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK>
wrote:

> Using the excuse of this subject heading to point out another US/UK
> distinction:
>
> If you see a sign in London marked 'subway' with an arrow pointing down,
> it's pointing to a walkway under a road or train track.  It's not
> pointing you the way to the Tube.
>
> Lynne
>
> Dr M Lynne Murphy
> Lecturer in Linguistics
> School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
> University of Sussex
> Brighton BN1 9QH
> UK



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Jun  9 16:43:36 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 17:43:36 +0100
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.174336.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter asked:
> Have Londoners taken to calling the Underground "the tube"
> indiscriminately?  I had it explained to me by a Londoner back in the 60s
> that "tube" referred only to the routes created by underground drilling at
> greater depths, like the Picadilly and Bakerloo Lines, and would not be
> used of routes like the Circle Line, which were near enough to the surface
> to be created by the "break and cover" method.  I think I even read the
> same thing in some guide book.  I've taken it as gospel ever since, but
> maybe it was always more technical than colloquial.

I haven't heard anyone make the distinction, but then I don't live in London,
so maybe people up there are pickier.  When I've asked "can I get there by
tube?", no one's corrected me and I'm typically going on the Circle and
District lines.  The guide for visitors at londontown.com says:

begin quote
The London underground is known as 'the
tube', and has 270 stations along 11
different lines. It is the oldest underground
system in the world, the official opening
being 10 January, 1863.
end quote

So they, at least, don't seem to be making the distinction.  (It's a
London-based site, in spite of the .com ending.)

Lynne


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Jun  9 17:18:06 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:18:06 -0700
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.101806.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Robert S. Wachal" wrote:
>
> Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
> vulgarities were often uttered in silent films?
>
> Bob Wachal

Bob,
Is it possible to add a subject line to your messages?  It greatly aids in email
sorting, searching, and viewing.
Thank you,
Andrea
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Child" by Aardman Animation


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  9 03:42:27 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:42:27 EDT
Subject: Wrap sandwiches; Tuna melt; Turkey Wattle
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUN.2000.234227.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WRAP SANDWICHES

  "Wraps" are not in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA.  They're not in the OED.
  It's easy to check on computer databases.  The term "wrap" was popularized by a wrap restaurant in San Francisco in 1995.  However, wraps have been around awhile.
  This is from FAMILY CIRCLE, July 1975, pg. 86:

_WRAP-UPS_
   FROM CREPES TO CANNELLONI!  Whatever you call them, you'll find them everywhere, for every country has its own version--some form of thin dough wrapped or rolled around a tasty filling.  You can make a hearty main-dish or sweet dessert wrap-ups; you can make the wrappers ahead and freeze them.  Wrap-ups are a good way to use leftover tidbits, and--most important--people love them!

  Someone asked for the history of "rap," no?

--------------------------------------------------------
TUNA MELT

  Jessie Sheidlower has given the order for a pre-1977 "melt."  I checked through FAMILY CIRCLE of the early 1970s, and it wasn't there.
  My thought is that it originated in a 1970s ad for Kraft cheeses--probably for Velveeta.  Companies often keep their old advertising on file.  (I once asked Budweiser for their 1904 "We're from Missouri" ad.)
  "Tuna Stretches Food Dollars" in the March 20, 1970 CHICAGO TRIBUNE doesn't have "tuna melt."
  James Beard's book (1972) doesn't have "melt."
  It's not one of the nine tuna dishes in the October 1973 FAMILY CIRCLE.
  FAMILY CIRCLE June 1975, pg. 115, has a Kraft ad for VELVEETA.  "Good old Velveeta.  Good in so many ways."  One of the ways is: "Slice it on your tuna bake and you'll see what we mean."
  I'm sure Kraft will have that 1970s "melt."

--------------------------------------------------------
TURKEY WATTLE

  "Turkey wattle" is not in the OED.
  I've been going through the Chicago Tribune for "gyro."  "'Turkey Wattle:' Telltale Sign of Age" is in 23 May 1970, section 2, pg. 20, cols. 4-8:

  "Turkey wattle" under the chin is a dead giveaway for advancing years and can make even a smooth, youthful face look older. (...) "Turkey wattle" underchin looseness often appears in men and women in their forties and fifties, but it sometimes shows up even earlier.

  The article is from the book PLASTIC SURGERY: BEAUTY YOU CAN BUY (1970) by Harriet La Barre.


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Jun  9 05:12:18 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:12:18 -0400
Subject: Shill Bidding
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.011218.0400.>

I wish I could recall some of the Panini sutras (concerning sandhis and samasas)
I learned in high school. Recently, thanks to bibliographic help from Ron
Butters, I studied some of the more modern stuff about noun+noun compounds. This
was in connection with a trademark like Pizza Hut, I think. The point I am trying

to make is that, because we know what a "shill" is and what "bidding" is, it
doesn't necessarily follow that we know what "shill bidding" is; it is not that
transparent. However, from the structure of the compound, we do know that it is a

kind of bidding just as we know that "bidding war" is a kind of war.  As a
practicing lexicographer lying sleepless in Niagara Falls, I would say there
isn't enough room in earthly dictionaries for all nontransparent compounds to be
entered and defined. They have to make the grade based on frequency of occurrence

in the language.

"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:

> This seems to me to be an interesting case of "lexicon" (including
> "lexicalized compositions") versus "transparent composition," a difficulty
> which surely keeps real lexicographers awake at night. We know what a
> "shill" is, and we know what "bidding" is. Therefore, we know what "shill
> bidding" is (and it doesn't suprise me that it isn't in a dictionary). For
> example, we know what "big" is, and we know what "dog" is. Therefore , we
> know what a "big dog" is (and don't find it in the dictionary). I can
> already think of lots of objections to that characterization (caricature?),
> and I wonder what practicing lexicographers have to say about it these days....
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Bapopik at AOL.COM <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000 12:24 AM
> >Subject: Shill Bidding; The Art of Eating Well
> >
> >
> >>SHILL BIDDING
> >>
> >>   The FBI announced today that it's looking into "shill bidding," or "self
> >bidding," on eBay.  That's when friends bid on their own stuff to drive up
> >the price.  It's illegal.
> >>   The term is not in the online OED.
> >
> >
> >On Lovejoy, this was called 'a ring', as in a ring of friends, accomplices,
> >cohorts, what have you, who would bid up the price at auction. Of course, I
> >have no idea how closely the TV series hewed to the written source, and how
> >accurately the books described the dodgy side of the British antique
> >business...
> >
> >bkd
>
> Dennis R. Preston
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
> preston at pilot.msu.edu
> Office: (517)353-0740
> Fax: (517)432-2736

[My own unconstructed "SIGNATURE" in just 6 lines] Thomas M. Paikeday,
lexicographer & language consultant since 1964, ed. The User's Webster
Dictionary, a unique dictionary for home, school, and office that defines words
in their typical contexts and provides examples of idiomatic usage, 2000, ISBN
0-920865-03-8, trade paperback, xviii + 1262 pp., US$7.99 / Cdn$11.95. Order from
University of Toronto Press Fulfillment Services, (800) 565-9523, fax (800)
221-9985, utpbooks at utpress.utoronto.ca. Published by Lexicography, Inc., Toronto
& New York, (905)371-2065, fax: (905)371-3120.


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Fri Jun  9 18:59:23 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:59:23 +0100
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
In-Reply-To: <E130RqK-0000Pf-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.195923.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 9/6/00 5:43 PM, Lynne Murphy wrote:

> Peter asked:
>> Have Londoners taken to calling the Underground "the tube"
>> indiscriminately?  I had it explained to me by a Londoner back in the 60s
>> that "tube" referred only to the routes created by underground drilling at
>> greater depths, like the Picadilly and Bakerloo Lines, and would not be
>> used of routes like the Circle Line, which were near enough to the surface
>> to be created by the "break and cover" method.  I think I even read the
>> same thing in some guide book.  I've taken it as gospel ever since, but
>> maybe it was always more technical than colloquial.
>
> I haven't heard anyone make the distinction, but then I don't live in London,
> so maybe people up there are pickier.  When I've asked "can I get there by
> tube?", no one's corrected me and I'm typically going on the Circle and
> District lines.  The guide for visitors at londontown.com says:
>

I don't know about in London, but here in Edinburgh (where there are a lot
of Londoners, admittedly), "the tube" refers to the London Underground.  The
whole system.  But, I sense a drift of "tube" meaning *any* (partially)
subterranean rail system.  So, I don't think locals would bat an eyelid if
someone were to mention the tube in Glasgow. In fact, my in-laws have
mentioned taking the tube in New York.

Does "tube" have a [j] (or [y], depending on convention) in any American
dialects?  Here, it's pronounced like "chewb", which causes me a slight
giggle every so often, despite years of "scientifically studying" this
stuff.

--Aaron

________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
  --Death


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Fri Jun  9 18:46:28 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:46:28 -0400
Subject: The Art of Eating Well
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.144628.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The epicurean Barry Popik observes:

>>>>>
   It's interesting to compare this with the Mother Leone Italian cookbook.
"Spumoni" is not here, but Mother Leone's restaurant served spumoni on its
opening day in 1906.  "Pizza" is here in 1891, as are cannelloni, focaccia,
frittata, gelato, gnocchi, veal scaloppine, semolina, and much more.
<<<<<

Mother Leone? Who she?

Now, I remember *Mamma* Leone's famous Italian restaurant.


-- Mark
When all else fails, panic.
Come to think of it, why wait?


From funex79 at SLONET.ORG  Fri Jun  9 21:00:24 2000
From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:00:24 -0700
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.140024.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Speaking as an ex-New Yorker,  I believe there is a system in NY known to
locals as The Tubes. It refers to a separate system that runs from somewhere
in lower Manhattan, under the Hudson River to Newark or Jersey City. It is
referred to as the Hudson Tubes.

J Foster
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron E. Drews" <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)


> on 9/6/00 5:43 PM, Lynne Murphy wrote:
>
> > Peter asked:
> >> Have Londoners taken to calling the Underground "the tube"
> >> indiscriminately?  I had it explained to me by a Londoner back in the
60s
> >> that "tube" referred only to the routes created by underground drilling
at
> >> greater depths, like the Picadilly and Bakerloo Lines, and would not be
> >> used of routes like the Circle Line, which were near enough to the
surface
> >> to be created by the "break and cover" method.  I think I even read the
> >> same thing in some guide book.  I've taken it as gospel ever since, but
> >> maybe it was always more technical than colloquial.
> >
> > I haven't heard anyone make the distinction, but then I don't live in
London,
> > so maybe people up there are pickier.  When I've asked "can I get there
by
> > tube?", no one's corrected me and I'm typically going on the Circle and
> > District lines.  The guide for visitors at londontown.com says:
> >
>
> I don't know about in London, but here in Edinburgh (where there are a lot
> of Londoners, admittedly), "the tube" refers to the London Underground.
The
> whole system.  But, I sense a drift of "tube" meaning *any* (partially)
> subterranean rail system.  So, I don't think locals would bat an eyelid if
> someone were to mention the tube in Glasgow. In fact, my in-laws have
> mentioned taking the tube in New York.
>
> Does "tube" have a [j] (or [y], depending on convention) in any American
> dialects?  Here, it's pronounced like "chewb", which causes me a slight
> giggle every so often, despite years of "scientifically studying" this
> stuff.
>
> --Aaron
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
> http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
> aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics
>
>  "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
>   --Death
>


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Jun  9 21:06:25 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:06:25 -0700
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
In-Reply-To: <B566FD1A.23C9%aaron@ling.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.140625.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

During my years in New York I don't recall hearing anyone call the city
subway system "the tube," but I did learn that what is today the PATH
system connecting NYC and New Jersey used to be called "The Hudson Tubes."
I don't know whether this system was referred to colloquially as "the
tube," or "the tubes," at that time.

Peter Mc.



--On Fri, Jun 9, 2000 7:59 PM +0100 "Aaron E. Drews" <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK>
wrote:

> In fact, my in-laws have
> mentioned taking the tube in New York.



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Fri Jun  9 21:39:20 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:39:20 -0500
Subject: No subject
In-Reply-To: <394126CE.92910418@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.163920.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THANK YO U, MY DEAR, WHOEVER AND WHEREVER YOU ARE.  Your advice is golden
and I have complied with a resend.  Sorry for the screaming caps==an accident.

Bob

At 10:18 AM 6/9/00 -0700, you wrote:
>"Robert S. Wachal" wrote:
>>
>> Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
>> vulgarities were often uttered in silent films?
>>
>> Bob Wachal
>
>Bob,
>Is it possible to add a subject line to your messages?  It greatly aids in
email
>sorting, searching, and viewing.
>Thank you,
>Andrea
>--
>Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
>"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
>--From "Angry Child" by Aardman Animation
>
>


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Jun  9 21:44:15 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 17:44:15 -0400
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
In-Reply-To: <193353.3169530389@dhcp-218-202-123.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.174415.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

>Have Londoners taken to calling the Underground "the tube"
>indiscriminately?

I lived in London 1970-71, and I don't recall its ever being called
anything else - then or since.

Bethany


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Fri Jun  9 22:32:26 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 17:32:26 -0500
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.173226.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Aaron Drews asks:

> Does "tube" have a [j] (or [y], depending on convention) in any American
> dialects?

Yes.  It's [tjub] in my Mississippi dialect.

   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)

PS: I don't see the trains on the Picadilly Line as angry at all.
That's my favorite line.  It's especially exciting to watch the
Cockfosters train as it races into or out of a tube.  That's
vitality, not anger.


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Sat Jun 10 00:48:52 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:48:52 -0400
Subject: cussing in silent movies
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000609074537.007cb730@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.204852.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Robert S. Wachal wrote:

> Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
> vulgarities were often uttered in silent films?

A silent movie buff friend of mine suggests that you check out
alt.movies.silent on Usenet. Check the FAQ, and if nothing's mentioned
there, ask away.


--- Steve K.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Jun 10 04:44:03 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 21:44:03 -0700
Subject: Pronunciation of "tube"
In-Reply-To: <200006100401.VAA21076@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUN.2000.214403.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Aaron--
        Consult the forematter in DARE or The Pronunciation of English in
the Atlantic States (PEAS) on the distribution of the palatal glide before
/uw/ after alveolars in American varieties (not "dialects", please) of
English. I, like Natalie and most Southerners, use /tyuwb/, /nyuw/, etc.
(but not for words like "noon", where the /uw/ comes from /ow/).

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 10 08:10:53 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 04:10:53 EDT
Subject: From Soup to Nuts
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.041053.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  From soup to nuts.
  This isn't the condition that George "Superman" Reeves went through, is it?
  I couldn't find it on the MOA.  I didn't check American Memory.
  OED has 1910, "US colloq., from beginning to end, completely, everything."
  Stevenson's QUOTATIONS has Horace (35 BC), "From the egg to the apples."  A 1941 quotation has "Nuts to soup (they were eating dinner backwards)."
  Christine Ammer's AHDOI has:

_from soup to nuts_  Also, _from A to Z_ or _start to finish_ or _stem to stern._  (...)  The first expression, with its analogy to the first and last courses of a meal, appeared in slightly different forms (such as _from potage to cheese_) from the 1500s on; the precise wording here dates only from the mid-1900s.

   From the GOOD HOUSEKEEPING Topical Index, May, 1897:

>From Soup to Peanuts.
  Green Pea Soup
  Fried Beef Steak
  A Spinach Luncheon
  Salted Peanuts


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Sat Jun 10 17:54:54 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 12:54:54 -0500
Subject: vulgarities in silent films
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.125454.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I got just one response, so I am posting once again.

Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
vulgarities were often uttered in silent films?

Bob Wachal


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 10 19:23:37 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:23:37 -0400
Subject: vulgarities in silent films
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000610125454.007eb800@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.152337.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Robert S. Wachal wrote:

> I got just one response, so I am posting once again.
>
> Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
> vulgarities were often uttered in silent films?

I don't know whether journalistic sources are helpful to you for this
purpose, but the article by Bill Jones in the Phoenix Gazette, July 7,
1994, makes this claim.

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sat Jun 10 20:13:09 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 16:13:09 -0400
Subject: vulgarities in silent films
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000610125454.007eb800@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.161309.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Robert S. Wachal wrote:

>I got just one response, so I am posting once again.
>
>Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
>vulgarities were often uttered in silent films?

I'm having trouble with this question. Since the films were silent, how
could anything have been uittered in them? I thought it was a trick
qustion.

Bethany


From faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 10 21:17:09 2000
From: faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:17:09 -0400
Subject: vulgarities in silent films
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10006101612010.6953-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.171709.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:13 PM -0400 6/10/2000, Bethany K. Dumas wrote, ostensibly about
Re: vulgarities in silent films:
>On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Robert S. Wachal wrote:
>
>>I got just one response, so I am posting once again.
>>
>>Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
>>vulgarities were often uttered in silent films?
>
>I'm having trouble with this question. Since the films were silent, how
>could anything have been uittered in them? I thought it was a trick
>qustion.

You just don't have a sneaky, suspicious mind, Bethany. I interpreted
the question as being whether the actors in silents were "saying"
(i.e., mouthing) words that mismatched the subtitles, perhaps in ways
that wouldn't have been allowed at the time.

I'd never heard this, but it does have enough of an urban legend
quality to it that I think pretty strong confirmation would be
required. Even statements by actors from these movies, obviously many
years after the fact, could be embellished to make a good story.
--
Alice Faber                                       tel. (203) 865-6163
Haskins Laboratories                              fax  (203) 865-8963
270 Crown St           new improved email: faber at pop.haskins.yale.edu
New Haven, CT 06511    old email, if you must: faber at haskins.yale.edu


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Sat Jun 10 21:46:07 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 16:46:07 -0500
Subject: vulgarities in silent films
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10006101612010.6953-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.164607.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember reading that deaf lip readers used to variously complain or
enjoy the vulgar utterances. I would not waste your time with a trick
question nor an idle one.  I am finishing a paper for American Speech on
vulgar language.

Bob

At 04:13 PM 6/10/00 -0400, you wrote:
>On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Robert S. Wachal wrote:
>
>>I got just one response, so I am posting once again.
>>
>>Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
>>vulgarities were often uttered in silent films?
>
>I'm having trouble with this question. Since the films were silent, how
>could anything have been uittered in them? I thought it was a trick
>qustion.
>
>Bethany
>
>


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sat Jun 10 21:56:22 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:56:22 -0400
Subject: vulgarities in silent films
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000610164607.007e0b80@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.175622.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Robert S. Wachal wrote:

>I remember reading that deaf lip readers used to variously complain or
>enjoy the vulgar utterances. I would not waste your time with a trick
>question nor an idle one.  I am finishing a paper for American Speech on
>vulgar language.

Thanks for the clarification, Bob.

Bethany


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sat Jun 10 22:28:03 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 18:28:03 -0400
Subject: vulgarities in silent films
In-Reply-To: <a04310101b5685fe96546@[208.58.250.173]>
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.182803.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Alice Faber wrote:

>You just don't have a sneaky, suspicious mind, Bethany. I interpreted
>the question as being whether the actors in silents were "saying"
>(i.e., mouthing) words that mismatched the subtitles, perhaps in ways
>that wouldn't have been allowed at the time.

I'll work on that Alice!

Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 10 22:49:56 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 18:49:56 EDT
Subject: vulgarities in silent films
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.184956.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  Mel Brooks did a spoof of this in his film, SILENT MOVIE.  I haven't seen the film for quite a while, though, so I could be wrong.  All I really remember is the Burt Reynolds shower scene.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 10 23:17:00 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 19:17:00 EDT
Subject: Black Talk (1970)
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.191700.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BLACK TALK (1970)

  I've been going through the Chicago Tribune in my "gyro" search.
  From the CHICAGO TRIBUNE MAGAZINE, 20 September 1970, pg. 50:

_Black Talk_
Presenting Mrs. Hermese Roberts, a together school principal whose boss glossary of idioms may improve communication between the gray boys and brothers.
   (...)  The English Language Institute of America asked her to undertake the project; it would distribute the glossary to its client corporations, large firms which hire black help. (...)

   The terms (with nice, long definitions) are:

bawstid; big juice; blood; blue-eyed soul brother; boss dick; burn; bustin(g); case; chuck; creep; crumbcrushers; dap, dapt; do; do rag; down; dues; dusties; FBI (Fat, Black, Ignorant)(RHHDAS 1961 for Fat Bald Ignorant, 1974 for this--ed.); flew coy; fox; Georgia ham (DARE 1971--ed.); get hat; get in the wind; got some chest; get wasted; give me some skin; going for; gowster, gouster; gray boy; grease; grip; hammer; happy shop; hard legs; hawk; herb; hinety; hog; honky; ice that!; letter from home; light housekeeping; main mellow; main squeeze; mammy; member; mink; nod; nose open; ofay; off; oreo; paddy; peck; pig; playing the dozens; Ralph Bunche; ready; real down; rip off; screaming on; set; shackin(g); sheen; sho' 'nuff; side; sky piece; smash; soft legs; soul brother; stallion; stone, strung out; taste; thang; The Man; together; vines.

--------------------------------------------------------APPLE (NATIVE AMERICAN SLANG)

   RHHDAS has 1980.
   From the CHICAGO TRIBUNE MAGAZINE, 2 August 1970, pg. 44, col. 2:

   Well, that's another problem Indians have.  A lot of them don't know who they are or want to be.  Some people tell them to be white because that's success.  Other people tell them to be Indian because that's strength.  Many have solved the problem by becoming what militant Indians call "apples," red outside and white inside.  Tonto was an "apple."  "Apples" couldn't care less about the antics on Alcatraz.  "Apples" also usually have good jobs.


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Sat Jun 10 23:21:10 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 18:21:10 -0500
Subject: books for sale?
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.182110.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

-
There used to be sites in which one could offer books for sale, but I can't
seem to find any.  I have a number of old dictionaries that I need to get
rid of. Can anyone help with a suggestion?

TIA

Bob


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 10 23:33:15 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 19:33:15 EDT
Subject: Monte Cristo sandwich (continued)
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.193315.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From GOURMET, May 1955, pg. 66, col. 3:

Q. I'm giving a stag party, and want to serve Monte Cristo sandwiches.  I've looked everywhere, including my copy of THE GOURMET COOKBOOK, for the recipe, but no luck.
ROBERT H. MIDDOUGH
LONG BEACH, CALIFORNIA

A.  S'truth, the recipe was masquerading under the title of _croque monsieur_.  Here's an Americanized version of a famous French snack.
   _Monte Cristo Sandwich_
   Cut the crusts from 3 thin slices of white bread.  Spread the first slice with butter and cover with lean baked ham and chicken.  Butter the second slice on both sides, lay it on the ham and chicken and cover with thin slices of Swiss cheese.  Finish with the third slice (Pg. 67, col. 1) of bread.  Cut the sandwich in half, fasten the halves with wooden toothpicks, and dip them in a batter made of 2 eggs lightly beaten with 1 cup cold milk and seasoned to taste with salt and white pepper.  Saute the sandwich in butter until golden brown on both sides.  Remove the picks and serve immediately.


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sat Jun 10 23:27:33 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 19:27:33 -0400
Subject: books for sale?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000610182110.007d3600@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.192733.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>There used to be sites in which one could offer books for sale, but I can't
>seem to find any.  I have a number of old dictionaries that I need to get
>rid of. Can anyone help with a suggestion?

eBay?

If you have a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th (not revised 4th) edition _Black's
Law Dictionary_=, I am interested.

Bethany


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Jun 11 01:15:51 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:15:51 -0400
Subject: books for sale?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000610182110.007d3600@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> from
 "Robert S. Wachal" at Jun 10, 2000 06:21:10 PM
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.211551.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> -
> There used to be sites in which one could offer books for sale, but I can't
> seem to find any.  I have a number of old dictionaries that I need to get
> rid of. Can anyone help with a suggestion?

Post 'em here! Some of us are trying to start up departmental
libraries, and need to fill them.

Jesse Sheidlower
Oxford English Dictionary


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 11 01:49:29 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:49:29 EDT
Subject: Black Talk (1970)
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.214929.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I assume that Barry knows that reputable dictionaries of African-American
English have been published.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 11 01:53:26 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:53:26 EDT
Subject: vulgarities in silent films
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.215326.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/10/2000 4:50:49 PM, robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU writes:

<< >>
>>Can anyone point me to quotable sources and examples of the claim that
>>vulgarities were often uttered in silent films? >>

I don't know the anser to this question, but I do know that the translation
of foreign vulgarities in English subtitles can be weird and wonderful. For
example, I once saw a German film in which the German teenager said something
to his mother that literally meant something like "This shit car of mine." It
was translated into the English subtitles as "This fucking car of mine."


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 11 01:58:24 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:58:24 EDT
Subject: albondigas! no te dije!
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.215824.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Driving back from the beach through rural eastern North Carolina I saw this
sign a sale of double-wide trailors: "Tres dormitorios! Dos banos! [sic] $199
mes!"

This would not be surprising in southern Texas or southern Florida, but not
too many years ago the locals down east put up billboards praising the KKK.
Clearly, bilingual America is here to stay!


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 11 02:24:58 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 22:24:58 EDT
Subject: Chimichangas/Chimichongas (continued)
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.222458.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    From SEASONED WITH SUN: A BLENDING OF CULTURES (1974) by the Junior League of El Paso (TX), pg. 224:

CHIMICHONGAS
3 pounds beef, cut in small cubes
Lard
6 green chiles, roasted and peeled
1-2 serrano chiles
1 large onion, diced
1 clove garlic
2-3 tomatoes, quartered
2 cups beef stock
1/2 teaspoon oregano
Salt and pepper
Flour tortillas
Longhorn or Monterey Jack cheese
   Brown meat in lard.  Place chiles including seeds in blender with onion, garlic and tomatoes.  Puree and add to browned meat with stock and seasonings.  Cover and simmer 2-3 hours.  Cook until thick, being careful not to burn during last part of cooking.  Fill flour tortillas as for burritos, using toothpicks if necessary to keep filling inside.  Deep fat fry until golden brown; drain and put on broiler rack.  Sprinkle with grated cheese and melt under broiler until bubbly.  Serve immediately.

   From FAMILY CIRCLE, February 1977, pg. 110, col. 2:

CHIMICHANGAS
A chimichanga is a burrito or rolled, stuffed flour tortilla that has been fried to a golden crispness.  The frying changes the flavor and texture of the tortilla.  They can be made with any type of filling, such as chili con carne, refried beans or cheese.  They're also excellent as a dessert filled with pie filling and dusted with 10X sugar.

   GOURMET has a long article by Anne Lindsay Greer (Flavors of the American Southwest, November 1984, pp. 62+):
Pg. 62, col. 1: Tex-Mex is the Texas or "Americanized" version of Mexican food.
Pg. 198, col. 2: Tex-Mex literally means "Texas interpretation of Mexican food."
Pg. 202, col. 2:  This Sonoran tortilla is the basis for many of the dishes that distinguish Arizona cooking, including the cheese crisp (or Tucson tostado), _chimichanga_, _burro_, and _tostada del rey_.
Pg. 207, col. 3:  _Fajitas_, indigenous to San Antonio, Texas, and so often served with _pico de gallo_, a _salsa_-like accompaniment, are popular under other names, such as _carne asada_ in California and parts of Arizona.
Pg. 199, col. 1: _fajitas_ (grilled skirt steaks)


From funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM  Sun Jun 11 03:33:56 2000
From: funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM (Jordan Rich)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 20:33:56 -0700
Subject: Black Talk (1970)
In-Reply-To: <61.45f7766.26744a29@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.203356.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 09:49 PM 6/10/00 -0400, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>I assume that Barry knows that reputable dictionaries of African-American
>English have been published.

I have many books on AAVE listed on my website at:
http://funkmasterj.tripod.com/toasts.html#Toasts

Jordan Rich
Independent Scholar


From funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM  Sun Jun 11 03:38:14 2000
From: funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM (Jordan Rich)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 20:38:14 -0700
Subject: Black Talk 2
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUN.2000.203814.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Also, FYI - I have read Hermese Roberts' pamphlet....

Jordan Rich
Independent Scholar


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 11 06:24:42 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 02:24:42 EDT
Subject: "Coffee, tea or me?"
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.022442.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    "Coffee, tea or me" is not in any of the phrase books that I just went through.  Maybe Fred Shapiro will include it?
    I'll do a larger "coffee" posting eventually.  It's ninety degrees out--I need a nice cup of hot java.
    From TRUE (humor page), October 1965, pg. 140, col. 2:

    My friend Bev, a former airline stewardess grounded by marriage, finally went back to work as a stewardess for a large company on their executive airplane.
    Thrilled by the prospect of flying again, she reported to the pilot on board the aircraft for her first trip.  Attempting to be funny as well as friendly, she quipped, "Hi!  What'll it be--coffee, tea or me?"
    With a quick appraising glance the veteran pilot replied, "Suit yourself, sister.  Whatever's the easiest to make."
R. J. Putman
Arvada, Colorado


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Sun Jun 11 11:15:44 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 06:15:44 -0500
Subject: books for sale?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10006101926030.12466-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.061544.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Bethany.  Sorry, but I don't have Black's.

Best,

Bob

At 07:27 PM 6/10/00 -0400, you wrote:
>>There used to be sites in which one could offer books for sale, but I can't
>>seem to find any.  I have a number of old dictionaries that I need to get
>>rid of. Can anyone help with a suggestion?
>
>eBay?
>
>If you have a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th (not revised 4th) edition _Black's
>Law Dictionary_=, I am interested.
>
>Bethany
>
>


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Sun Jun 11 11:20:26 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 06:20:26 -0500
Subject: dictionaries for sale
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.062026.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In response to Jesse's suggestion, here is the list of dictionaries I have
available for purchase.

Bob

DICTIONARIES TO SELL OR DONATE

Funk & Wagnalls New Practical Standard Dictionary of the English Language,
"1949 Edition," 2 vols., New York: Funk & Wagnalls Company, 1946.  Good
condition but binding rubbed

The New Century Dictionary of the English Language, 3 vols., New York: D.
Appleton Century Company,1936. Good condition

Funk & Wagnalls New Practical Standard Dictionary of the English Language,
Thumb-indexed
"New York: Funk & Wagnalls Company, 1931.  Good condition but binding rubbed


Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of the English Language, International
Edition,
2 vols., Chicago: J.G. Ferguson Publishing Co., 1978. Good condition

Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of the English Language, International
Edition,
2 vols., Chicago: J.G. Ferguson Publishing Co., 1978. Good condition

The New Century Dictionary of the English Language, 2 vols.,New York: D.
Appleton Century Company,1948. Good condition

Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language, Second College
Edition, Deluxe Color Edition, New York: Simon & Shusrter, 1980.  Fine
condition with worn dust jscket.

Funk & Wagnalls New Practical Standard Dictionary of the English Language,
2 vols., Funk & Wagnalls Company, 1955.  Good condition but binding rubbed

The Oxford Universal Dictionary on Historical Principles, 3rd ed., Oxford:
Clarendon Press,1955.  Spine stained.

The Universal Dictionary of the English Language, London: George Routledge
& Sons, Ltd., 1932, Purchased from Rulon-Miller Books for $150.  Seller
notes "half-title with vertical crease, the whole somewhat wobbly,
otherwise a good and reasonably sound copy.

Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language, Encyclopedic
Edition, Cleveland: World Publishing Company, 1952.  Fair condition, tears
in binding

Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language, 3 vols.,
Springfield: G&C Merriam Company, 1950, binding faded, otherwise in good
condition.

The New Century Dictionary of the English Language, 3 vols.,New York:
TheCentury Company,1927. Binding worn.

Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language Compact Desk
Edition, Cleveland: World Publishing Company, 1963

An American Dictionary of the English Language, Noah Webster, revised and
enlarged by Chauncey A. Goodrich, Chicago: Donohue & Henneberry, 1896.
Binding loose, pages yellowed.

The American College Dictionary, New York: Random House,1950. Binding rubbed

The American College Dictionary, New York: Random House,1960, Excellent
condition

Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language, College Edition,
Cleveland: World Publishing Company, 1968. Pages slightly yellowed, binding
fine, dust jacket a bit worn

Thorndike Barnhart Comprehensive Desk Dictionary, New York: Doubleday &
Company, 1962. Binding has a tear and is rubbed, otherwise condition is
excellent.

Thorndike Barnhart Comprehensive Desk Dictionary, New York: Doubleday &
Company, 1967. Binding broken.

Thorndike Barnhart Comprehensive Desk Dictionary, New York: Doubleday &
Company, 1965. Small tear in binding

The Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors, Oxford: Clarendon Press,
1981.  Book and dust jacket in fine condition.

Oxford American Dictionary, new York, Oxford University Press, 1980. Book
and dust jacket in fine condition.

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 3rd edition,thumb-indexed, Springfield:
G&C Merriam Company, 1924
Binding worn and coming off.  Part of one page is missing.

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 4th edition, Springfield: G&Cerriam
Company, 1934. Rebound, fair condition.

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 5th edition, Springfield: G&C Merriam
Company, 1948. Biding rubbed and coming loose.

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 5th edition, Springfield: G&C Merriam
Company, 1948. Biding rubbed, , library copy.

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 6th edition, Springfield: G&C Merriam
Company, 1949. Biding rubbed.

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 7th edition, Springfield: G&C Merriam
Company, 1963. Biding rubbed.

Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, "Private Library
Edition,"Springfield: G&C Merriam Company, 1983.  Fine condition.

Thorndike Century Junior Dictionary, Revised Edition,Chicago: Scott,
Foresman and Company, 1942.Good condition.

The New Penguin English Dictionary, London: Penguin Books, Soft cover,
1986.  Fine condition.

The Wordsworth Concise English Dictionary, Ware: Wordsworth Editions, Ltd.,
1993, paper cover.  Fine condition.

Random House Dictionary of the English Language, Unabridged edition, New
York: Random House, 1967

American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Boston: Houghton
Mifflin, 1969

Random House Webster's College Dictionary, New York: Random House, 1991

Cambridge International Dictionary of English, cambridge: CUP, 1995, paper

Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English, New Edition, (2nd ed.), Harlow:
Lonmn Group, 1987, paper

Concise Oxford Dictionary, New Fourth Edition, Oxford: Clarendon Press,
1959, dust jacket torn, otherwise fine condition.

Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, New Edition, (5th ed.) Oxford: OUP, 1995

Cassell Dictionary of Abbreviations, London: Cassell wellington House,
1996, book and dust jacket in fine condition

Penguin Dictionary for Writers and Editors, London: Penguin Books, 1991,
book and dust jacket in fine condition

Webster's New World Dictionary of Acronyms and Abbreviations, new York:
Simon and Schuster, 1989

Webster's Guide to Abbreviations, Springfield: Merriam-Webster, 1985


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Sun Jun 11 14:05:48 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 15:05:48 +0100
Subject: dictionaries for sale
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.150548.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bob, if you don't succeed in selling the dictionaries here, the Linguist
List has a 'Notice Board' site at which they post such things.

http://linguistlist.org/~notice/

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 11 16:51:49 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 12:51:49 EDT
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.125149.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/9/2000 4:54:33 PM, dumasb at UTK.EDU writes:

<< >Have Londoners taken to calling the Underground "the tube"
>indiscriminately?

I lived in London 1970-71, and I don't recall its ever being called
anything else - then or since.

Bethany
 >>

Well, Bethany, I I have certainly heard it referred to as "The Underground"


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 11 18:13:22 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:13:22 -0400
Subject: Permafudgies; Rainfill
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.141322.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

1)  I was wondering how wide the domain of 'fudgies' was (i.e. whether it
was specifically a Youper (Upper Peninsula) expression)...

> And Mike Sheehan
> told me that where he lives in northern Michigan tourists are known
> as Fudgies "because of their proclivity for buying fudge in the
> innumerable tourist shops".

...so I asked a friend in the northwest corner of the mitten (lower
peninsula) whether she was familiar with the term, and she contributed this
codicil:

>Lake Leelanau counts, definitely.  The whole county.  Plus also the
>Traverse City area.  Dick Murdock's fudge (that's a chain store) is the most
>common type.  Another word for the day is 'permafudgie'.  That's people
>like my >parents who decide to move up there for good.

Joan, do you have 'permafudgie' for the DARE volume containing P yet?

2)  John McEnroe, commenting on the very tight and well-played last set of
today's men's French Open final, predicted that it would be 'rainfill' for
many years to come--evidently a technical term from the tennis world for a
match that is rerun to fill the dead air caused by a rain delay in the
televised transmission of a tournament.  Ultimately related to 'landfill',
I assume.  Any other cites for this?

My quick search on Nexis/Lexis came up with no hits for either
'permafudgie' or 'landfill', but since this is the new, "improved" Academic
Universe version, that doesn't mean too much.

larry


From vneufeldt at M-W.COM  Sun Jun 11 19:15:04 2000
From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 15:15:04 -0400
Subject: books for sale?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000610182110.007d3600@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.151504.0400.>

The Cordell Collection at Indiana State (now one of the largest dictionary
collections in the country, and an impetus for the establishment of the
Dictionary Society of North America in the 70s) would certainly be
interested in anything that they're missing.  I would be happy to put you in
touch with David Vancil, the curator of the collection.  I don't have his
e-mail address handy at the moment, so let me know.

Madeline Kripke of New York was a first-rate dictionary collector and
seller, with quite a large business, but I don't know if she's still doing
this.  Haven't had any contact with her for a few years, but I could find
out.  If she is, I know she would give you a fair price for anything she was
interested in.

I have to say (blush) that I'm a sucker for dictionaries myself, so I might
also be a customer.  Perhaps you should list what you have on this list --
there are probably a number of people like me on it.

Victoria
Merriam-Webster, Inc. P.O. Box 281
Springfield, MA 01102
Tel: 413-734-3134  ext 124
Fax: 413-827-7262


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Robert S. Wachal
> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 7:21 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: books for sale?
>
>
> -
> There used to be sites in which one could offer books for sale,
> but I can't
> seem to find any.  I have a number of old dictionaries that I need to get
> rid of. Can anyone help with a suggestion?
>
> TIA
>
> Bob
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 11 19:55:25 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 15:55:25 EDT
Subject: Abuzz.com censorship!
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.155525.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   As I've stated here: last Sunday, after four years, the New York Times decided to correctly spell my name.
   This was in response to an Abuzz.com posting, "New York Times & the Truth," that I had made on 4-28-00.  My Abuzz.com name is POPIK3.
   Lisa Carparelli, a spokesman (she used "spokesman") for the New York Times, then added a response on Abuzz that I partially quoted here.  Yes, they would correctly spell my name.  No, they would not issue any other apology.  She cited that 1909 Edward Martin extended metaphor to suggest that The New York Times couldn't print anything about John J. Fitz Gerald because my "Big Apple" work was wrong.
   I provided a blistering Abuzz.com reply.
   First, I again mentioned that the paper should reply to all that I've said, and should correct all errors.
   Second, I pointed out that the Times's latest excuse for not printing my "Big Apple" work after eight years was both wrong and inconsistent.  After all, the Times had made passing mention to my work three times (1996 article, 1997 on Good Day New York which now seems strangely missing on Nexis, and Sept. 1998).
  I had stated here that you can find this illogical response from a spokesman of the paper of record by using any of a bunch of keywords in the Abuzz.com Search box.
  I recently tried these words:
Big Apple
New York Times
Lisa Carparelli
Irving Lewis Allen
City in Slang
Wayfarer in New York
1909
Charles Gillett
POPIK3
   You can't get to the posting!  There's obviously been a cookie attached to it!  They don't want you to read it!
   Please, look for it NOW!
   Meanwhile, William Safire and Katy Miller (ADS colleagues) still do nothing!


From MAVINSON5 at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 11 20:17:45 2000
From: MAVINSON5 at AOL.COM (MAVINSON5 at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:17:45 EDT
Subject: was/were
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.161745.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If rhoticism has not taken place, how would the equivalent of were be spelled
in Old English?  waezon instead of wearon?  Also in Mod. Eng., would it be
spelled weze?  I have seen different books spell were: waezon, waeson,
waesun, waezun.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 12 01:47:51 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 21:47:51 EDT
Subject: LANGUAGE
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.214751.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Some time ago you indicated an interest in my back issues of LANGUAGE--a run
that goes back into the 1960s. Are you still interested?


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Mon Jun 12 01:51:53 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 21:51:53 -0400
Subject: LANGUAGE
In-Reply-To: <96.602a9b7.26759b47@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.215153.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 11 Jun 2000 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

>Some time ago you indicated an interest in my back issues of LANGUAGE--a run
>that goes back into the 1960s. Are you still interested?

Yes, Ron, I am. My notes are in my office - I can send you some details
tomorrow.

Thanks,
Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 12 03:18:41 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 23:18:41 EDT
Subject: Throwaway Fashion
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUN.2000.231841.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the NEW YORK POST, 11 June 2000, pg. 42, col. 1:

_Throwaway Fashion_
_Clothes become disposable_
_thanks to supercheap designs_
By FARRAH WEINSTEIN
   Why drop tons of dollars on designer duds that are destined to be dumped in the trash in a matter of months anyway?
   The latest--and least expensive--clothing trend is throwaway fashion: sexy styles that cost so little, women have no problem tossing them after they've been worn just once.
   Of course, this new fad wouldn't have been possible without the launch of bargain stores like Midtown's H&M and the just-opened Madison, at 290 Madison Avenue.
   At both stores, shoppers can get the looks of Sarah Jessica Parker or Nicole Kidman for a tenth of what the stars pay.

   A Net check shows other throwaways:

Throwaway Society; Throwaway Generation; Throwaway People; Throwaway Kids; Throwaway Teens; Throwaway Dads; Throwaway Fathers; Throwaway Wives; Throwaway Babies; Throwaway Friends; Throwaway Pets; Throwaway PCs; Throwaway Software; Throwaway Chips

(After reading this post, please throwaway properly.)


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Mon Jun 12 06:58:10 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 02:58:10 -0400
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.025810.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter A. McGraw <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Friday, June 09, 2000 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)


>During my years in New York I don't recall hearing anyone call the city
>subway system "the tube," but I did learn that what is today the PATH
>system connecting NYC and New Jersey used to be called "The Hudson Tubes."
>I don't know whether this system was referred to colloquially as "the
>tube," or "the tubes," at that time.


I can second this...while I recognized the lines in question from the
description, I've never heard them called anything but the PATH trains in
the last ten years. Of course, I don't live in the area on the New Jersey
where some old-timers might use "Hudson Tubes", but that name is not in
current usage.

bkd


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Mon Jun 12 07:09:14 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 03:09:14 -0400
Subject: Lexicographer's dilemma
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.030914.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: GEORGE THOMPSON <thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Friday, June 09, 2000 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: Lexicographer's dilemma


>When the meaningful elements of a saying vary in this way, what does
>a lexicographer do?  How can it be entered in a dictionary so that it
>will be found?  About 8 years ago American Speech published a note
>from me giving late 19th century occurences of similar variable
>expressions:  "Your money [dough] is no good [doesn't go] in this
>joint [town, up here]", expressing the idea that that the speaker
>will pay for everything, and "I can do that standing on my head
>[hands]", expressing disdain for a term of imprisonment.


At some point we may get the "what is that phrase/word I'm looking for?"
dictionary....

Something that you can ask a nice open-ended question like..."what's that
British phrase, about everything being safe...?" and it'll return a whole
bucketload of British phrases that fit, no matter how tangentially.

How would this have to work? There would have to be a large degree of
natural language processing, to break it down to components, after which a
thesaurus search/list generation would begin. Geography and age would serve
as search modifiers. Following the synonym list generation, a straight
search will return all potentially matching phrases. If we're very lucky,
the machines get fast enough that the intermediate steps seem to vanish.
Unless of course the internal phrase list+thesaurus grows faster than
processing power...

See, it's really just an engineering problem...<G>

Shortly after that dictionary is created, expect the mythical DWIM (Do What
I Mean) key to be created...8-)

bkd


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Mon Jun 12 13:05:03 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:05:03 -0400
Subject: Permafudgies; Rainfill
In-Reply-To: <v04011702b569841f7137@[130.132.245.160]>
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.090503.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 11 Jun 2000, Laurence Horn wrote:

> 1)  I was wondering how wide the domain of 'fudgies' was (i.e. whether it
> was specifically a Youper (Upper Peninsula) expression)...

I'm from the Flint area, and I've never heard it, if you're trying to
establish a southern boundary. Ask people from Clare or Grayling, although
I doubt they'd have it. It makes sense that Lelanau County would have it
though, I'd bet the other LP county bordering the Straits
(Emmet? Charlevoix? I forget) would have it too. For what it's worth.


--- Steve K.


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 12 14:26:42 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 07:26:42 -0700
Subject: Throwaway Fashion
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.072642.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    From the NEW YORK POST, 11 June 2000, pg. 42,
> col. 1:
>
> _Throwaway Fashion_
> _Clothes become disposable_
> _thanks to supercheap designs_
> By FARRAH WEINSTEIN
>    Why drop tons of dollars on designer duds that
> are destined to be dumped in the trash in a matter
> of months anyway?
>    The latest--and least expensive--clothing trend
> is throwaway fashion: sexy styles that cost so
> little, ....

Has "sexy" become the new "nice", "cute", "swell",
etc.??  Last year Subway sold a sexy sandwich, and
Wendy's is now selling a sexy salad!  Is "sexy" the
most overused (and misused) word of the past decade?



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Jun 12 16:00:19 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:00:19 -0400
Subject: portmanteau words (lexical blending)
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.120019.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's a question that you might find interesting, from LINGUIST List #11-1309.
ADS-L'ers, please respond to the questioner, not to me; my bcc list, I'd enjoy
any reaction you may have.

-- Mark

     =======================================

Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:16:12 +0200
From: Suzanne Kemmer <kemmer at eva.mpg.de>
Subject: How old is lexical blending?

Does anybody know how old lexical blending is in English?
Besides the Lewis Carroll examples like _slithy_ and _chortle_,
which date from 1872, I have found one blend in George Eliot's Middlemarch
(_Corregiosity_) and then the next oldest I have are citations
in reference works : 1896 (_brunch_ ) and 1905 (_smog_).

Has anybody collected any earlier lexical blends? I would have
thought Dickens might have created some but of course it's difficult to
search until you know a specific example.  Shakespeare would
be another likely creator of blend neologisms.
(anybody know a Shakespeare list I can post this query to?).

Thanks for help.
Suzanne Kemmer


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Jun 12 17:25:04 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:25:04 -0700
Subject: From Soup to Nuts
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.102504.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>   From soup to nuts.

I used this expression the other day and my English husband had no idea what I
was talking about.  Apparently this has not crossed the pond.  I then asked him
if he had heard "from top to toe" and the answer was no.  Of course, those two
expressions are not the same.  In fact, I think "from stem to stern" is closer
to "from top to toe" than to "from soup to nuts", and I see the former two being
a more physical reference.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 12 17:24:37 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:24:37 -0400
Subject: portmanteau words (lexical blending)
In-Reply-To: <852568FC.0057DB59.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.132437.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 12 Jun 2000 Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:

> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:16:12 +0200
> From: Suzanne Kemmer <kemmer at eva.mpg.de>
> Subject: How old is lexical blending?
>
> Does anybody know how old lexical blending is in English?
> Besides the Lewis Carroll examples like _slithy_ and _chortle_,
> which date from 1872, I have found one blend in George Eliot's Middlemarch
> (_Corregiosity_) and then the next oldest I have are citations
> in reference works : 1896 (_brunch_ ) and 1905 (_smog_).

Answering this question is a great use of the OED Online.  A search there
reveals such pre-Lewis Carroll coinages as Nobodaddy (William Blake,
c1793, nobody + daddy) and snivelization (Herman Melville, 1849, snivel +
civilization).  The oldest blends noted by the OED appear to be drubly
(a1340, trobly + drof), paithment (c1375, pavement + paith), wlappe
(c1380, lappe + wrap), withweeed (1567, withwind + birdweed), womanlish
(1579, womanish + womanly), and scraze (1703, scratch + graze).


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Jun 12 17:55:01 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:55:01 -0700
Subject: Chimichangas/Chimichongas (continued)
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.105501.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I distinctly remember a Tex-Mex restaurant in Houston advertising chimichangas
on the radio circa 1976-7.  The timing is accurate in that my sister was still
in high school, and was either a junior or a senior, and she graduated in 1977.
I'm trying to remember the restaurant; I can hear the commercial, but not the
restaurant name.  It might have been Pappasito's ([sp] there are several
restaurants in town owned by the Pappas family, and sometimes they have 2 p's,
sometimes one) or Ninfa's.
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Child" by Aardman Animation


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Jun 12 18:28:49 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:28:49 -0700
Subject: Abuzz.com censorship!
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.112849.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

You're a lawyer - why don't you sue the Times, Abuzz, and others who are
plagiarizing your work?  Once you make 'em hurt, they won't do it again.

Meanwhile the 'www.thebigapple.net' domain is for sale.  Buy it and publish the
truth.  Or better yet, put your info on http://www.snopes.com/ and
http://www.urbanlegends.com/ which are recognized urban legend debunking sites.

Andrea
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Child" by Aardman Animation


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Jun 12 19:06:34 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:06:34 -0400
Subject: new word alert
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.150634.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(Damn, that's weird...)

My 23-year-old daughter and I were working with my laptop computer, which has in
lieu of a mouse one of those things that look like a pencil eraser between the G
and H keys. I called it an "eraserhead". She says that none of her friends call
it anything but a "clitmouse". !!!

What's weird is that I found myself very reluctant to put that wonderful word in
the subject line, even though I have no problem discussing it in the message.
Oh, oh, old fogeyhood is catching up with me.

-- Mark

     Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist & Manager of Acoustic Data
          Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc.
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
                    (speaking only for myself)


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Mon Jun 12 15:12:44 2000
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:12:44 -0400
Subject: Permafudgies; Rainfill
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.111244.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My recollection is that "fudgies" was originally used on Mackinac
Island, MI, the location of several fudge specialty shops, to refer to
visitors to the Island. I don't know how far beyond the Island the word
is now used.

Bob

"Steve K." wrote:
>
> On Sun, 11 Jun 2000, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> > 1)  I was wondering how wide the domain of 'fudgies' was (i.e. whether it
> > was specifically a Youper (Upper Peninsula) expression)...
>
> I'm from the Flint area, and I've never heard it, if you're trying to
> establish a southern boundary. Ask people from Clare or Grayling, although
> I doubt they'd have it. It makes sense that Lelanau County would have it
> though, I'd bet the other LP county bordering the Straits
> (Emmet? Charlevoix? I forget) would have it too. For what it's worth.
>
> --- Steve K.


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Jun 12 19:40:26 2000
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:40:26 -0400
Subject: new word alert
In-Reply-To: <852568FC.0068E8EE.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.154026.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Clit mouse" has been around for years. It was submitted to the Jargon Watch
column in Nov. '96 by someone at Stanford.

I never brought myself to submit it to Wired at the time*, but have used it
ever since and have heard it frequently used by others.


---------------------------
Gareth Branwyn
Jargon Watch Editor
Wired

* My editor at the time was a very politically correct sort who never wanted
to publish anything that might be construed as sexist. I submitted another
term around this time, AssGrabber, which I really wanted to use. AOL had
just released a program called FileGrabber which allowed you to assemble
multi-part newsgroup image files at the touch of a button. Since the only
real purpose of this utility was assembling porno, the name nearly instantly
became AssGrabber. This was a time when AOL was proclaiming how "family
friendly" it was, so I found this tech (and the resultant slang) particular
interesting (again, since there was little other use for it, which AOL was
surely aware of). I also found it interesting that my editor thought the
term was sexist. There was (and still is) a huge gay porn presence online,
so I don't know why he assumed the gender of the ass being grabbed. He was
not the editor of the Jargon Watch book, so I was able to use this term and
several others that he had censored.

> From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:06:34 -0400
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: new word alert
>
> (Damn, that's weird...)
>
> My 23-year-old daughter and I were working with my laptop computer, which has
> in
> lieu of a mouse one of those things that look like a pencil eraser between the
> G
> and H keys. I called it an "eraserhead". She says that none of her friends
> call
> it anything but a "clitmouse". !!!
>
> What's weird is that I found myself very reluctant to put that wonderful word
> in
> the subject line, even though I have no problem discussing it in the message.
> Oh, oh, old fogeyhood is catching up with me.
>
> -- Mark
>
> Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist & Manager of Acoustic Data
> Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc.
> 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
> (speaking only for myself)
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 12 20:09:06 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:09:06 -0400
Subject: new word alert
In-Reply-To: <B56AB4E9.4BD%garethb2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.160906.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gareth Branwyn writes:
>"Clit mouse" has been around for years. It was submitted to the Jargon Watch
>column in Nov. '96 by someone at Stanford.
>
>I never brought myself to submit it to Wired at the time, but have used it
>ever since and have heard it frequently used by others.
>
>
Right--when I tried searching google.com for 'clitmouse' I came up empty,
but there were a number of cites of 'clit-mouse', 'clit mouse', and even
one for 'mouse clit' on various techie-type sites.  Here's an example
(supply your own [sic]s):

My primary machine is a Tosh laptop, which is equipped with a nifty[0]
little strain guage based mouse-replacement device called an
accupoint.
This little gizmo nestles in between the 'G', 'H' & 'B' keys, & is
known in the trade as a nipple mouse, for reasons that are very
obvious if you've ever seen one in use.
One of my cow-orkers surprised the hell out of me by coming up with an
even more offensive name, when he described it to one of our youngish,
catholic & female staff members as a 'clit-mouse'.

larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 12 23:02:01 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:02:01 EDT
Subject: "Gyro" at Chicago's Parthenon Restaurant
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.190201.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The Chicago Tribune did a series on the city's top ten restaurants, by type.  The top Greek restaurant was Parthenon.  From the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, 27 May 1971, section 2, pg. 19:

_This Parthenon, Too, Is Classic Greek_
  (...)(Col. 2--ed.) Next came _gyros_ ($1.95 a plate), unusual, intriguing and thoroly (sic) Greek.  It consists of layers of specially spiced lamb and beef, barbecued vertically on equipment imported from Greece, which is set up in the window at the front of the restaurant.
  (...)(Photo caption, col. 6--ed.)
  Bill Liakouras slices a dishful of gyros, vertically barbecued layers of spiced lamb and beef.

  The OED has the NEW YORK TIMES, 4 September 1971.
  The Chicago Tribune Magazine ran nice pieces on Chicago delis, Chicago pizza, and Chicago hot dogs.  I think I'll see a piece on the gyro if I read through another year or two, through about 1974.
  It'll have to wait--I leave for Pittsburgh after work tomorrow.
  Attached is another question for me to answer (no message in the body of the question!) from Abuzz.  It never ends!
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Abuzz <new_york at abuzz.com>
Subject: Big Apple
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:17:06 -0400 (EDT)
Size: 2127
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20000612/55122da6/attachment.eml>

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 12 23:28:31 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:28:31 EDT
Subject: Menudo & Gorditos
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.192831.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Jesse asked me if I have a "menudo" before 1964.

   From RAMONA'S SPANISH-MEXICAN COOKERY: THE FIRST COMPLETE AND AUTHENTIC SPANISH-MEXICAN COOK BOOK IN ENGLISH (Los Angeles, 1929):

Pg. 84: _Gorditos_ (Taco Bell owes me!--ed.)
4 cups tortilla dough (masa)
1/2 cup green chile sauce (see sauces)
1/2 lib. sliced goat cheese
3 avocadoes, peeled and sliced
Salt and pepper to taste.
Pg. 85:  Divide the dough in 6 equal parts, form a round cake 1/2 inch thick and cook slowly on medium hot griddle, turning frequently, when well done split open and fill with cheese, chile sauce and avocado, salt and pepper to taste.
   This recipe will recall to many tourists the fond recollections of their visit to Santa Nita or Xochimilco where they were blessed with plenty of these delicious sandwiches, served with a generous gourde of pulque and music, as their flower laden boats drifted along the canals of the floating gardens near Old Mexico City.

Pg. 90:  _Tripe a la Mexicana--Menudo_
3 lbs. fresh tripe
4 cups cooking sauce (see sauces)
1 tblsp. chile powder
1 tblsp. almond meal
Salt and pepper to taste.
   Cut tripe in 2 inch squares, place to a slow boil in sufficient stock or water to cover well.  When near done add the cooking sauce, almond meal and chile powder, steam until well done.  Serve with tortillas.
   When using cooking sauce recipe in preparing tripe, chile powder may be used to taste and the almond meal can also be omitted.

--------------------------------------------------------
MEXICAN COOKBOOK
FOR QUANTITY SERVICE:
AUTHENTIC PROFESSIONAL RECIPES
By Caleva
(New York, 1958)

Pg. 40: _TRIPE SOUP, JALAPA STYLE_
(Menudo, Jalapenos)
25 Servings
   INGREDIENTS
Calf Feet (cleaned)...4 lbs.
Water (boiling)...3 gal.
Tripe (washed and chopped)...8 lbs.
Hominy...2 lbs.
Onions (chopped)...1 lb.
Garlic (chopped).. 4 cl.
Oregano...1 tbs.
Coriander...2 tsp.
Salt..1 tsp.
Pepper...1/2 tsp.
1. Place calves feet in boiling water and cool one hour.
2. Add tripe, hominy, onions, garlic; tie oregano, coriander, salt and pepper in spice bag, then add, bring to a boil and simmer six hours; remove and serve hot, garnish with mint leaf and chopped green onions.

--------------------------------------------------------
COOKING SOUTH OF THE RIO GRANDE
by George Luther Nelson
(San Antonio, 1935)

   This book also had "menudo."  However, the book had to be specially copied, and I'll pick them up next week.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 12 23:59:40 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:59:40 EDT
Subject: Tostada & Salsa
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.195940.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  In that previous posting, it should be mentioned that the RAMONA'S book cover shows Ramona's home--Camulos Ranch, California.  The 1929 book was "edited and modernized by Pauline Wiley-Kleemann."

--------------------------------------------------------
TOSTADA

  The OED's first citation of "burrito" is E. Fergusson, MEXICAN COOKBOOK (1934).  The OED's first citation of "tostados" is E. Fergusson, MEXICAN COOKBOOK (2nd edition, 1945).  "Tostada" is not in the first edition?
  "Tostada," "quesadilla," and "menudo" (I think) are all in that COOKING SOUTH OF THE RIO GRANDE (1935) by George Luther Nelson.  I requested copies because I didn't have time to write it all down.

  From GEBHARDT'S MEXICAN COOKERY FOR AMERICAN HOMES (San Antonio, 1935):

Pg. 11:  _TORTILLAS TOSTADAS_
(Toasted Tortillas)
Cur Tortillas (Mexican Style) into pieces one inch square or smaller and fry in deep fat (390 degrees F.) until a delicate brown in color.  Drain on absorbent paper; sprinkle with salt.

Pg. 31:  _CREMA TOSTADA DE MAIZ Y CHILI_
(Corn and Chili Custard)
No. 1 can Gebhardt's Chili con Carne
1 1/2 c. corn
1 c. milk
2 eggs, beaten
1 t. salt
1 c. soft bread crumbs
Mix ingredients and turn into a well greased casserole.  Place casserole in a pan of warm water and bake in a moderate oven (350 degrees F.) about 30 minutes or until custard sets.

Pg. 36:  _Salsas_
(Salad Dressings and Sauces) (...)
SALSA DE CHILI (Chili Sauce) (...)
Pg. 37:  POLLO EN PARRILLAS CON SALSA BARBACOA (Broiled Chicken with Barbecue Sauce) (...)
SALSA DE BARACOA (BARBECUE SAUCE I & II) (...)
Pg. 38:  SALSA A LA MEXICANA PARA PESCADO (Mexican Sauce for Fish) (...)
SALSA ENDIABLADA (Deviled Sauce) (...)
SALSA COCKTAIL PARA PESCADO (Sea Food Cocktail Sauce) (...)
Pg. 39:  SALSA FRANCESA (French Dressing) (...)
SALSA DE GEBHARDT PARA ENSALADA (Gebhardt's Salad Dressing) (...)
SALSA DE ENSALADA COCIDA (Cooked Salad Dressing)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 13 00:17:54 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:17:54 EDT
Subject: French Dip Sandwich; Biscotti
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.201754.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Two foods from GOURMET magazine that aren't in the online OED at all.

--------------------------------------------------------
FRENCH DIP SANDWICH

   From GOURMET, April 1951, pg. 71, col. 1:

Q.  I would like so much to know how to make French dip sandwiches.  Could you help me find a recipe?
MRS. W. H. NECESSARY (The guys nicknamed her "by any means"--ed.)
SHERMAN OAKS, CALIFORNIA
A.  We have a simple passion for unusual names, so may we add yours to our collection, in exchange for this recipe to add to yours?
   _French Dip Sandwiches_
   This is a long French roll heated until it is crisp and filled with slices of Swiss cheese, slightly melted, and slices of beef or lamb which have been dipped in a very peppery barbecue sauce.  One half of the filled roll is then dipped in the barbecue sauce.  The undipped half of the roll is used as a handle.

--------------------------------------------------------
BISCOTTI (continued)

   An earlier citation than I gave before is GOURMET, July 1951, pg. 54, col. 3:

Q.  I have in mind a sweet Italian rusk, flavored with anise...
MISS MARY OSADNICK
CHICAGO, ILLINOIS
(Pg. 55, col. 1--ed.)
A.  To enjoy _biscotti all'anaci_ properly, you should dunk them, neatly but thoroughly, in hot coffee.
   _Biscotti All' Anaci_
   _(Anise Biscuits)_
   Beat 2 eggs with 5/8 cup sugar until the mixture is thick and pale in color.  Fold in gently but thoroughly 1 1/4 cups sifted flour and 1 teaspoon anise seeds.
   Bake in a buttered and floured loaf pan, 4 inches wide, in a moderate oven (375 degrees F.) for about 20 minutes, or until done.
   Remove the cake from the pan and cut it into 1-inch slices.  Place the slices on a buttered baking sheet and bake them for 5 minutes, or until brown on one side.  Turn the slices over and bake for another 5 minutes.  This makes 20 biscotti.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 13 00:38:08 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:38:08 EDT
Subject: Son-of-a-Gun stew
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.203808.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   One more Son-of-a-Bitch before I prepare to get outta here.  Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK has this, but with no date.  I haven't yet checked the MOA databases.
   From GOURMET, "Saddle Seasoning: Cooking on the Texas Range," June 1942, pg. 7, col. 1:

   Dinner will be, basically, son-of-a-gun (col. 2--ed.), sourdough biscuits, cowboy beans, and calf fries.
   The proper name for son-of-a-gun is son-of-a-bitch, but for the benefit of the cowboys, who are averse to saying such things in the presence of ladies, it is commonly called son-of-a-gun.  It is an unbelievably delicious concoction invented by some long-forgotten chuck wagon cook.  Nobody knows the correct proportions of the various ingredients except the cook who is about to prepare it, and he doesn't know how much of what he has used when he gets it in the pot.  The utensils necessary to prepare the dish are an iron or an enamel kettle, a butcher knife, and a long-handled iron spoon.    The ingredients which, except for (col. 3--ed.) the salt and pepper, are all taken from a freshly killed beef, are as follows: marrow gut, cut in not more than quarter-inch lengths, diced lean meat, kidney fat, brains, sweetbreads, and finely chopped kidney, all of which are placed in the cooking vessel with a small quantity of water increased as required throughout the cooking process, an!
d are then allowed to cook for not less than 12 hours.  Some cooks add a dash of sage, and others, chili; but the old chuck wagon cook sticks to salt and pepper and says, "all them things is sissy."  The natural complement for son-of-a-gun is cowboy beans, which are pinto beans boiled with "anything handy chunked in."  (...) Chili powder may be added to advantage, along with the must-be onions, garlic, and suet.

   McDonald's should add this.  There's nothing like going in the drive-thru and saying "Son-of-a-bitch!" to a clown.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 13 00:53:39 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:53:39 -0400
Subject: Menudo & Gorditos
In-Reply-To: <7b.54e7c22.2676cc1f@aol.com> from "Bapopik@AOL.COM" at Jun 12,
 2000 07:28:31 PM
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.205339.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>    Jesse asked me if I have a "menudo" before 1964.

Barry, you da man.

JTS


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Jun 13 00:56:38 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:56:38 -0400
Subject: new word alert
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.205638.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

clit mouse, clit-mouse, and clitmouse were not found in Nexis (the full
service version) this evening.

Regards,
David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 13 05:53:25 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 01:53:25 -0400
Subject: Hyper Twister
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.015325.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    From the NEW YORK POST, travel section, 13 June 2000, pg. 42, col. 1:

_Riding Goliath_
_A brand new giant roller coaster opens in the Golden State_
   (...)  This year's entry from Six Flags Magic Mountain in Valencia, Calif., just north of L.A., is Goliath, a giant "hyper twister" style of coaster.
   (...) For more info: www.sixflags.com/magicmountain

   One web site lists several different types of coasters:  steel wild mouse, wooden (includes twisters), steel twisters, hyper coaster (higher than 200 feet), inverted, suspended, floorless, stand up, launched.
   The first "hyper twister" was Raging Bull, which opened at a Six Flags Great America in Illinois last year (1999).  And you thought the first "hyper twister" was Chubby Checker.
   From http://members.xoom.com/coasterlover/sfgam/rb/index.html:

   Raging Bull is Great America's 9th roller coaster.  It is the first of its kind in America--a _Hyper Twister_.  Let me explain these terms.  A _hyper coaster_ is a roller coaster that exceeds 200 ft. in height, and a _twister_ is a coaster that twists around itself again and again.  There are a lot of drops and a lot of turns.  The other type of coaster is an _Out and Back_, which does basically what it says.  It travels out to one spot and then travels back to the station.


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Tue Jun 13 08:50:46 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 04:50:46 -0400
Subject: new word alert
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.045046.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: new word alert


>Gareth Branwyn writes:
>>"Clit mouse" has been around for years. It was submitted to the Jargon
Watch
>>column in Nov. '96 by someone at Stanford.
>>
>>I never brought myself to submit it to Wired at the time, but have used it
>>ever since and have heard it frequently used by others.
>>
>>
>Right--when I tried searching google.com for 'clitmouse' I came up empty,
>but there were a number of cites of 'clit-mouse', 'clit mouse', and even
>one for 'mouse clit' on various techie-type sites.  Here's an example
>(supply your own [sic]s):


And for anatomical completeness, here's an entry from the Jargon File:

tits on a keyboard n.

Small bumps on certain keycaps to keep touch-typists registered. Usually on
the 5 of a numeric keypad, and on the F and J of a QWERTY keyboard; but
older Macs, perverse as usual, had them on the D and K keys (this changed in
1999).
---------------------

Is this gynomorphizing?

bkd


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Tue Jun 13 12:12:53 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:12:53 -0400
Subject: new word alert
In-Reply-To: <005001bfd514$7759f6b0$8a70cec0@qwe.graphnet.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.081253.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Bruce Dykes wrote:

> Small bumps on certain keycaps to keep touch-typists registered. Usually on
> the 5 of a numeric keypad, and on the F and J of a QWERTY keyboard; but
> older Macs, perverse as usual, had them on the D and K keys (this changed in
> 1999).

Hmmm. My Toshiba keyboard doesn't have dots, but rather en-dashes, on the
bottom of my F and J keys.... I wonder what those are called...

--- Steve K.


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Tue Jun 13 12:26:24 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:26:24 -0400
Subject: new word alert
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.082624.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

And now I have to wonder...if you have a clitmouse that's part of a
buch...is it a clustered clitmouse?

ducking and running
Bruce


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Tue Jun 13 01:43:15 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:43:15 -0500
Subject: "Gyro" at Chicago's Parthenon Restaurant
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUN.2000.204315.0500.>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>    The Chicago Tribune did a series on the city's top ten restaurants, by > type.  The top Greek restaurant was Parthenon.  From the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, 27 > May 1971, section 2, pg. 19:
>
> _This Parthenon, Too, Is Classic Greek_
>   (...)(Col. 2--ed.) Next came _gyros_ ($1.95 a plate), unusual, intriguing > and thoroly (sic) Greek.

Hi, Barry!

Chicagoans (at least us old, old Chicagoans) wouldn't think of (sic)ing
that odd spelling.

Oh, we'd recognize that it's odd.  But we'd probably react more or less
as suggested in an old Quaker saying:  "Thee should not be upset when
thee steps in dog-doo.  Consider the source from which it comes."

Well, I first heard that from an old Quaker; you're reading it now from
another. For me, that indisputably makes it an old Quaker saying.

"Colonel" Robert McCormick, the long-time owner of the Chicago Tribune,
was a dedicated supporter of a program of spelling reform that came out
of his own little head.  "Thoroly" is of a piece with many of his
creations.  As owner of what he insisted on advertising as "The World's
Greatest Newspaper", he would amend the Trib's style book whenever the
whim hit him.  His "reformed" spellings aren't the only examples of his
idiosyncrasies that survive him at the Trib, but they surely are, quite
literally, the most visible.

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!

P.S.:  Your TV cable system probably has another example, if it brings
in "superstation" WGN-TV.  The call letters "WGN" were Col. McCormick's
way of advertising the Tribune on the radio station he also owned.

"WGN" got its name as an abbreviation of "World's Greatest Newspaper".

If you ever run out of things to do, it might be fun to find the sources
of other radio and TV call letters.  The Chicago Tribune wasn't the only
newspaper to shape the call letters of an associated radio station.
There's WTMJ, for "The Milwaukee Journal", for example. (Since U.S.
stations generally begin with either "W" or "K", the first letter
sometimes isn't a signifier. Viz: KQED.)


From pkh at OFFTHEPAGE.COM  Tue Jun 13 14:26:59 2000
From: pkh at OFFTHEPAGE.COM (Paul Harm)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:26:59 -0400
Subject: Tube? (was: Re: Subway!)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10006091743001.14347-100000@larry.cas.utk.ed u>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.102659.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 05:44 PM 6/9/00 -0400, you wrote:
>On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>
> >Have Londoners taken to calling the Underground "the tube"
> >indiscriminately?
>
>I lived in London 1970-71, and I don't recall its ever being called
>anything else - then or since.
>
>Bethany

I asked two friends from England,  both in their twenties, one from
Cambridge and one from London, about their use of "tube."

Both used "tube" to refer to the London subway in all cases, even in those
places where it runs above-ground.

The woman from Cambridge said that she has heard English people her age use
"tube" as a generic term for "subway," even in reference to underground
rail lines other than that found in London.  But, apparently, if the
location of the line is known, then the local name of the particular system
("metro" in Paris, "subway" in New York, and so on) is used.

The man from London did not remember ever hearing this generic usage.

They also volunteered contrary explanations of the term.  The man from
London claimed that it was called so because of the shape of the train, not
the tunnel, while the woman claimed it was from the shape of the tunnel,
not the train.

Paul

--
Paul Harm
Web Developer, Off the Page Productions
+1.412.488.9801.x16


From vneufeldt at M-W.COM  Tue Jun 13 15:14:28 2000
From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:14:28 -0400
Subject: "Gyro" at Chicago's Parthenon Restaurant
In-Reply-To: <394591B3.289B23BD@corn.cso.niu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.111428.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What a terrific story.  (Two, actually.  I had no idea about this origin of
call letters.  I suppose many radio stations were originally owned by
newspapers.)

Did anyone ever write McCormick's biography?  Or did he write his memoirs?
Either would probably be interesting reading.

Victoria
Merriam-Webster, Inc. P.O. Box 281
Springfield, MA 01102
Tel: 413-734-3134  ext 124
Fax: 413-827-7262

On Monday, June 12, Mike Salovesh wrote:
> >
> >    The Chicago Tribune did a series on the city's top ten
> restaurants, by > type.  The top Greek restaurant was Parthenon.
> From the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, 27 > May 1971, section 2, pg. 19:
>
> "Colonel" Robert McCormick, the long-time owner of the Chicago Tribune,
> was a dedicated supporter of a program of spelling reform that came out
> of his own little head.  "Thoroly" is of a piece with many of his
> creations.  As owner of what he insisted on advertising as "The World's
> Greatest Newspaper", he would amend the Trib's style book whenever the
> whim hit him.  His "reformed" spellings aren't the only examples of his
> idiosyncrasies that survive him at the Trib, but they surely are, quite
> literally, the most visible.
>
> -- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
> PEACE !!!
>
> P.S.:  Your TV cable system probably has another example, if it brings
> in "superstation" WGN-TV.  The call letters "WGN" were Col. McCormick's
> way of advertising the Tribune on the radio station he also owned.
>
> "WGN" got its name as an abbreviation of "World's Greatest Newspaper".
>
> If you ever run out of things to do, it might be fun to find the sources
> of other radio and TV call letters.  The Chicago Tribune wasn't the only
> newspaper to shape the call letters of an associated radio station.
> There's WTMJ, for "The Milwaukee Journal", for example. (Since U.S.
> stations generally begin with either "W" or "K", the first letter
> sometimes isn't a signifier. Viz: KQED.)
>


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun 13 16:58:56 2000
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:58:56 -0700
Subject: "Coffee, tea or me?"
In-Reply-To: <a7.4a42d3b.26748aaa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.095856.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A book by this title is listed in the bibliography of a dissertation
written at the Handelshochschule St. Gallen by Dr. Hanspeter Danuser, now
the Director of Tourism for St. Moritz (Switzerland). His thesis had a
title something like "Zur Ausbildung und zum Berufsbild der
Swissair-Hostess." This is as likely as a book so titled is likely to
climb on the academy's pop charts, I ween.

Peter Richardson

On Sun, 11 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>     "Coffee, tea or me" is not in any of the phrase books that I just went through.  Maybe Fred Shapiro will include it?
>     I'll do a larger "coffee" posting eventually.  It's ninety degrees out--I need a nice cup of hot java.
>     From TRUE (humor page), October 1965, pg. 140, col. 2:


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Jun 13 17:45:15 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:45:15 -0700
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.104515.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<agitated state>

OK, There's an Irish guy on one of the lists who has got my dander up.  He is
insisting that it is wrong to leave off the accents on words in Am. English.  I
and another fellow (US folk) say baloney, in Am. English most people don't learn
accents, nor do they write them.  I think I've brought this to this list before,
but in case the idiot wants some sort of authoritative backup, I ask:

Would any of you mark a word wrong which lacks the accents that it had in its
originating language, e.g. resume, cafe, fiance?

Would you think that the word is missing its accents and is therefore harder to
understand?

If you saw the word "resum?" (the last letter is 'e' with an acute accent) would
you think, hey, it's missing the other accent?

Do any of you care?  Is it anyone's pet peeve?

Are any of you in touch with K-12 folks?  If so, could you ask them if they
teach accent writing?

To this day I don't feel comfortable writing a cedilla.

</agitated state>

Many thanks for your answers.
Andrea
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Child" by Aardman Animation


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Jun 13 19:31:17 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:31:17 +0100
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.203117.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Andrea asks:

> Would any of you mark a word wrong which lacks the accents that it had in its
> originating language, e.g. resume, cafe, fiance?

yes, yes, yes.

>
> Would you think that the word is missing its accents and is therefore harder to
> understand?

yes, particularly on 'resume'

> If you saw the word "resum?" (the last letter is 'e' with an acute accent) would
> you think, hey, it's missing the other accent?

probably not.

> Do any of you care?  Is it anyone's pet peeve?

it's not my pet peeve, but i care.

prescriptively,
lynne


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Tue Jun 13 19:38:47 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:38:47 -0700
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <3946732B.AD760B60@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.123847.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think the alcohol sake should either have an accent or be put in italics
because it is so easy to mistake for sake. Of course in Japanese, there is
no accent.

Also, Canada (college name in California) should get a tilde so people know
not to pronounce it like the country. I would definitely think these two
words seemed strange without the marks.

Having the second accent but not the first in resume is an error I've been
guilty of. I try to put on both or neither, but I don't consider only one to
be out in left field because both seems pretentious. (Sorry, it does!)

Other than that, I think accents are optional. Of course, I'm a writer
(translator), not a teacher.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On
>
>Would any of you mark a word wrong which lacks the accents that it
>had in its
>originating language, e.g. resume, cafe, fiance?
>
>Would you think that the word is missing its accents and is
>therefore harder to
>understand?
>
>If you saw the word "resum?" (the last letter is 'e' with an acute
>accent) would
>you think, hey, it's missing the other accent?
>
>Do any of you care?  Is it anyone's pet peeve?
>
>Are any of you in touch with K-12 folks?  If so, could you ask them if they
>teach accent writing?
>
></agitated state>
>
>Many thanks for your answers.
>Andrea


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 13 19:42:21 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:42:21 -0700
Subject: "Coffee, tea or me?"
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.124221.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I recall that "Coffee, tea or me?" was the title of a
novel in the late 60's or early 70's.  A movie with
the same title was based on the book.


--- Peter Richardson <prichard at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:
> A book by this title is listed in the bibliography
> of a dissertation
> written at the Handelshochschule St. Gallen by Dr.
> Hanspeter Danuser, now
> the Director of Tourism for St. Moritz
> (Switzerland). His thesis had a
> title something like "Zur Ausbildung und zum
> Berufsbild der
> Swissair-Hostess." This is as likely as a book so
> titled is likely to
> climb on the academy's pop charts, I ween.
>
> Peter Richardson
>
> On Sun, 11 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> >     "Coffee, tea or me" is not in any of the
> phrase books that I just went through.  Maybe Fred
> Shapiro will include it?
> >     I'll do a larger "coffee" posting eventually.
> It's ninety degrees out--I need a nice cup of hot
> java.
> >     From TRUE (humor page), October 1965, pg. 140,
> col. 2:



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com


From jlyons at NETMARKETGROUP.COM  Tue Jun 13 19:46:48 2000
From: jlyons at NETMARKETGROUP.COM (Lyons, Jennifer M)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:46:48 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.154648.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, it's a pet peeve, although that's wearing off.  Most people don't know
how to type accents on their computer, and so, more often than not, the
words go without.  However, if someone's handwriting a word with accents and
leaves them off, I still get a little annoyed.

More annoying, and more confusing, is the fact that people don't know the
difference between fiance (see, I don't even know how to type the accents on
a Windows machine - I learned them all on the Mac, where I wrote several
years' worth of essays in French) and fiancee.

Jen

-----Original Message-----
From: A. Vine [mailto:avine at ENG.SUN.COM]

Would any of you mark a word wrong which lacks the accents that it had in
its
originating language, e.g. resume, cafe, fiance?

Would you think that the word is missing its accents and is therefore harder
to
understand?

If you saw the word "resum?" (the last letter is 'e' with an acute accent)
would
you think, hey, it's missing the other accent?

Do any of you care?  Is it anyone's pet peeve?


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun 13 19:56:31 2000
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:56:31 -0700
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <3946732B.AD760B60@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.125631.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Andrea's minor rant could have included _forte_, which we're now
society-bound to pronounce for-tay, but which (gee--I hope I'm right about
this!) comes from something more like _fort_. Not only do we have an
implied accent on the final vowel, but the final vowel shouldn't even be
there in the first place.

Maybe this will put Andrea's dander back down where it belongs; all things
in perspective, m'love.

Peter R.

On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, A. Vine wrote:

> <agitated state>
>
> OK, There's an Irish guy on one of the lists who has got my dander up.  He is
> insisting that it is wrong to leave off the accents on words in Am. English.  I
>
> To this day I don't feel comfortable writing a cedilla.
Time to eat lunch: soupc,on...


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun 13 20:00:25 2000
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:00:25 -0700
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLADGECHFGAAAKHDNEEFPEKAA.gogaku@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.130025.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
> Having the second accent but not the first in resume is an error I've been
> guilty of. I try to put on both or neither, but I don't consider only one to
> be out in left field because both seems pretentious. (Sorry, it does!)

Now let's call out the Latin police for all those job-seekers who send a
"curriculum vita." "I'll send you my vita," he said, "or my curriculum
vitae." But if you really want me to be pretentious, I'll send you my
vitam instead."

PR


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Jun 13 20:09:46 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:09:46 +0100
Subject: forte (was: Re: Accents in Am. English)
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.210946.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter R says:

> Andrea's minor rant could have included _forte_, which we're now
> society-bound to pronounce for-tay, but which (gee--I hope I'm right about
> this!) comes from something more like _fort_. Not only do we have an
> implied accent on the final vowel, but the final vowel shouldn't even be
> there in the first place.

I was first corrected on 'forte' (i.e., told to pronounce the 'e') when I lived in
South Africa.  I was told that you must pronounce the 'e' because it's from
Italian, not French--but they were wrong.  It's only the musical term that's from
Italian.  New Oxford has the pronuncation 'fort-ay' first, and AHD has it last, so
perhaps the American shift toward 'forte' is built on the assumption that the
British know best.  I have to say that my least favorite (what an odd expression)
English pronunciation is 'furore' (US furor)--pronounced something like few-rorry.

Incidentally, the American pronunciation that seems to annoy the English the most
is 'herb' without the 'h'.  At least two people here have (separately) expressed
their annoyance with this.  Probably because 'h'-less dialects are so downmarket
here.

Ta-ta,
Lynne


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Tue Jun 13 20:13:31 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:13:31 -0400
Subject: forte (was: Re: Accents in Am. English)
In-Reply-To: <E131wxy-0006To-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.161331.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Lynne Murphy wrote:

> New Oxford has the pronuncation 'fort-ay' first, and AHD has it last, so
> perhaps the American shift toward 'forte' is built on the assumption that the
> British know best.

A sneak preview of things to com: this order of pronunciations has
been switched for the 4th edition of the AHD, with 'for-tay' coming first
now.

A strong majority of our Usage Panel (74%) preferred the two-syllable
pronunciation, for what it's worth.

(We switched the 'status' prons, too, for the 4th, with STAT-us first and
STAY-tus second.)

--- Steve K.


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Tue Jun 13 22:21:27 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:21:27 -0500
Subject: "Coffee, tea or me?"
In-Reply-To: <20000613194221.19875.qmail@web1301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.172127.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James Smith says: "I recall that "Coffee, tea or me?" was the title
of a novel in the late 60's or early 70's.  A movie with
the same title was based on the book."

"Coffee Tea or Me" was the purported "uninhibited memoirs of two
airline stewardesses" published under the names Trudy Baker and
Rachel Jones, in NY by Bartholomew House in 1968.  It was evidently
popular, being translated into Spanish ("Cafe, te o yo?") and what I
believe to be Thai.  In English, it spawned three sequels: "The
Coffee, Tea or Me Girls Lay It on the Line"; "The CToM Girls Get Away
from It All"; and "The CToM Girls 'Round the World Diary".  All this
from RLIN.  I vaguely remember seeing one of these efforts on a
paperback rack at the time.

RLIN also shows a book called "Coffee, Tea or Me, Mei Shih ai ching"
published in Taipei a few years ago.  Trudy and Rachel aren't the
authors.

RLIN also shows Trudy Baker to be the author of a number of
elementary shool math texts, published in Canada, so perhaps she has
reformed, not that I necessarily think that one needs to reform from
being an uninhibited airline stewardess, nor that writing
mathematics texts would be a symptom of reformation.

GAT


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Jun 13 22:14:36 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:14:36 -0700
Subject: forte (was: Re: Accents in Am. English)
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.151436.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Steve K." wrote:
>
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Lynne Murphy wrote:
>
> > New Oxford has the pronuncation 'fort-ay' first, and AHD has it last, so
> > perhaps the American shift toward 'forte' is built on the assumption that the
> > British know best.
>
> A sneak preview of things to com: this order of pronunciations has
> been switched for the 4th edition of the AHD, with 'for-tay' coming first
> now.
>
> A strong majority of our Usage Panel (74%) preferred the two-syllable
> pronunciation, for what it's worth.
>
> (We switched the 'status' prons, too, for the 4th, with STAT-us first and
> STAY-tus second.)
>

Funny, Rob Kyff just had it in his column, and insisted that monosyllabic
"forte" was the human strength and bisyllabic "forte" the musical term.


From brewer at MAIL.TKU.EDU.TW  Wed Jun 14 00:23:16 2000
From: brewer at MAIL.TKU.EDU.TW (Warren Brewer)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:23:16 +0800
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.082316.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Benjamin Barrett wrote:

> Also, Canada (college name in California) should get a tilde so people know
> not to pronounce it like the country.

That reminds me of when I used to live in Los Angeles, and drove past a freeway
sign that read something like:

                            "LA CANADA HIGHWAY"

which I thought was the "Los Angeles to Canada Highway". Took a while to realize
it was "La Can~ada" (Sp. "the gully").

                                                    -----Warren Brewer.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 14 00:33:11 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:33:11 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <3946D074.32C1B96C@mail.tku.edu.tw>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.203311.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That's a purty good California story, but ours doesn't even involve a
tilde. My wife and I were driving behind a bus (up Telegraph Hill as I
recall), when the ad on the back of the bus (in all caps) which announced

USA CONDONES

attracted our attention.

Now, we are both fair to middlin' speakers of both Spanish and English, but
since the sign was all in caps and since we were not "plugged in" to
Spanish, we both wondered how a transitive verb could be used
intransitively. "The United States condones what," we wondered? A
millisecond later, we looked at each other, and, amazingly, (but we have
been married for a long time), started singing (to the tune of "De
Colores") "Usa condones' ("use condoms," for them of you who don't do
Spanish).

It's pert nigh my favorite bilingual story.

dInIs





>Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>
>> Also, Canada (college name in California) should get a tilde so people know
>> not to pronounce it like the country.
>
>That reminds me of when I used to live in Los Angeles, and drove past a
>freeway
>sign that read something like:
>
>                            "LA CANADA HIGHWAY"
>
>which I thought was the "Los Angeles to Canada Highway". Took a while to
>realize
>it was "La Can~ada" (Sp. "the gully").
>
>                                                    -----Warren Brewer.


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Jun 14 02:48:57 2000
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:48:57 -0500
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000613125741.24915Q-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.214857.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter Richardson <prichard at LINFIELD.EDU> said:
>> Having the second accent but not the first in resume is an error I've been
>> guilty of. I try to put on both or neither, but I don't consider only one to
>> be out in left field because both seems pretentious. (Sorry, it does!)
>
>Now let's call out the Latin police for all those job-seekers who send a
>"curriculum vita." "I'll send you my vita," he said, "or my curriculum
>vitae." But if you really want me to be pretentious, I'll send you my
>vitam instead."
>
>PR

Well, and on Sunday I heard the form curriculae! It was a reading at
church, which suggests it has made it into print!

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Wed Jun 14 05:37:25 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:37:25 -0700
Subject: Status
In-Reply-To: <200006140401.VAA03672@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.223725.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Steve--
        Sorry to hear y'all have gotten confused as to which pronunciation
is standard; will "data" be next? I always sort of jump inside when I hear
either word being pronounced with /ae/, despite being a card-carrying
nonprescriptivist. Sort of like hearing people pronounce "patio" with
/ae/.
        Rudy

P.S. Dennis, I loved your bilingual homograph.


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Wed Jun 14 10:18:55 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 06:18:55 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.061855.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: A. Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 3:21 PM
Subject: Accents in Am. English



>OK, There's an Irish guy on one of the lists who has got my dander up.  He
is
>insisting that it is wrong to leave off the accents on words in Am.
English.  I
>and another fellow (US folk) say baloney, in Am. English most people don't
learn
>accents, nor do they write them.  I think I've brought this to this list
before,
>but in case the idiot wants some sort of authoritative backup, I ask:


Okay, my opinion is worthless as far as authoritative backup goes, but as an
interested layperson and native speaker, I'll offer my opinions. Feel free
to ignore as you see fit.

First some perspective:

American English is a language where "lite" is printed with infinitely more
prominence than "light".

Online scribes casually reduce "for example" to "frex" without a second's
pause.

And every encounter with "should of" and someone's "peaked curiosity" (which
is a surprisingly good transition, and, I feel,  a more understandable
improvement over piqued curiosity, though it does lose some charm) should
leave your Irish correspondent's monitor drenched in spittle.

Now for my rules:

1) Technical feasibility. In handwriting this is not a problem. Typing on
your average pc keyboard does take some expertise, but it's not impossible.
I would expect those who have to deal with foriegn languages regularly
should know how to generate those characters they deal with. Unfortunately,
in the absence of total technical uniformity, unless you know how the
documents create are going to be displayed and used in all circumstances,
which is impossible in an environment such as our mailing list here, it's
absolutely pointless to stick to native typography. Andrea can (and has in
the past) go into the technical reasons behind this, but suffice to say, in
email correspondence, it's generally safer to stick to the letters, numbers,
and punctuation we can all display safely.

Note however that in most instances, such as sign making and publishing,
technical feasibility isn't generally a problem. It's mostly in the
information processing world that things get funky. Let's not even get
started on displaying advanced mathematics...

2) Context. If the sentence is entirely American English, and the word is
often printed (the definition of often is left to the writer) sans accent,
mark, or any other typographic element normally absent in American English,
such as cafe, resume, nee, forte, fiance, etc., go ahead and follow
precedent. If the word in question is appearing in its native language, such
as on a restaurant menu, or a business sign, then yes, native typography
should prevail, when technically feasible.

That's my recommendation, and it's worth every penny you paid for it, or 2
cents, whichever is greater.

Bruce


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Wed Jun 14 11:22:54 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:22:54 +0100
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <E131wMk-0005eJ-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.122254.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Andrea asks:
>
>> Would any of you mark a word wrong which lacks the accents that it had in its
>> originating language, e.g. resume, cafe, fiance?
>
>yes, yes, yes.
>
>>
>> Would you think that the word is missing its accents and is therefore harder to
>> understand?
>
>yes, particularly on 'resume'
>
>> If you saw the word "resum?" (the last letter is 'e' with an acute accent) would
>> you think, hey, it's missing the other accent?
>
>probably not.
>
>> Do any of you care?  Is it anyone's pet peeve?
>
>it's not my pet peeve, but i care.
>
>prescriptively,
>lynne

I wonder if it has something to so with not being in the U.S.  I would have had the same answers as Lynne.  I think it's some of the pedantry I've acquired being here.  :-)

--Aaron

--
________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Wed Jun 14 11:36:52 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:36:52 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.073652.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron E. Drews <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: Accents in Am. English



>I wonder if it has something to so with not being in the U.S.  I would have
had the same answers as Lynne.  I think it's some of the pedantry I've
acquired being here.  :-)
>
>--Aaron


Amazingly excellent point. In the EU, residents are exposed to the native
forms regularly, and documents cross borders with casual abandon. You have a
very large variety of languages in a relatively small space, compared to the
US where foreign language inputs are filtered through time, and geographic
proximity, which should be an integrity maintenance factor (is there some
fancy pro term for that?) is pretty much limited to Spanish.

I also encountered another homophonic transition that I omitted from my
earlier missive:
"mother load"

bkd


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Wed Jun 14 12:22:46 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:22:46 -0400
Subject: forte (was: Re: Accents in Am. English)
In-Reply-To: <3946B24C.C0490358@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.082246.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, A. Vine wrote:

> Funny, Rob Kyff just had it in his column, and insisted that monosyllabic
> "forte" was the human strength and bisyllabic "forte" the musical term.

Truth be told, in my humble little rural upbringing, I had never
heard single-syllable forte until I started working in lexicography.

But then again, 'boughten' is in my lexicon (another item I didn't
realize was nonstandard until a few years ago), especially in phrases like
"store-boughten bread" (as opposed to homemade).

--- Steve K.


From Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM  Wed Jun 14 12:28:59 2000
From: Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM (Joe Pickett)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:28:59 -0400
Subject: "Gyro" at Chicago's Parthenon Restaurant
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.082859.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<<Did anyone ever write McCormick's biography?  Or did he write his memoirs?
Either would probably be interesting reading.

Victoria
Merriam-Webster, Inc. P.O. Box 281
Springfield, MA 01102
Tel: 413-734-3134  ext 124
Fax: 413-827-7262  >>



Believe or not Houghton recently published a biography of Robert McCormick by
Richard Norton Smith.  Can't say I've read it.

Here's the Amazon site for it:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0395533791/qid=960985755/sr=1-4/102-6217130-1020123


Joe


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Wed Jun 14 12:33:57 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:33:57 -0400
Subject: Status
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPX.4.21.0006132231360.16836-100000@pavo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.083357.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Rudolph C Troike wrote:

> Sort of like hearing people pronounce "patio" with /ae/.

AHD 1, back in the 60s, listed the first pronunciation of patio with
/ae/ (short a, as in bat). This is also the first form in the latest
Random House College and MW10...

It appears with a-as-in-father in Kenyon & Knott's Pronouncing Dictionary
Of American English. (1953, a copyright update of 1944). Websters 2nd has
a-as-in-father; Webster's 3rd has a-as-in-bat, so there seems to have been
a shift midcentury.

--- Steve K.


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Wed Jun 14 12:34:56 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:34:56 -0500
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.073456.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think it makes sense to use the accent marks if including a
clearly foreign word or phrase in something but not if the word
has become a normal part of the English language.  Just as
borrowed words usually adapt to English phonology, they adapt
to English orthography.  English spelling doesn't use accent
marks.

I would consider putting an accent mark on a word like resume
when writing in English just as pretentious as pronouncing
borrowed words in an un-English way.  (I find it especially
amusing when a pseudo-sophisticate screws up and accidentally
spits on the listener in an attempt to pronounce Bach "properly.")
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Wed Jun 14 12:48:42 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:48:42 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <200006141234.HAA22128@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.084842.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, Natalie Maynor wrote:

> I would consider putting an accent mark on a word like resume
> when writing in English just as pretentious as pronouncing
> borrowed words in an un-English way.

How about the habit of frozen desserts and heavy metal bands to throw
umlauts all over the place?

(The funniest thing I ever heard the great Indo-Europeanist Eric Hamp say
was his attempt to pronounce Haagen Dazs umlauts and all... Those of you
who know Eric can appreciate this.)

--- Steve K.


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Tue Jun 13 18:49:18 2000
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:49:18 -0500
Subject: Abuzz.com censorship!
In-Reply-To: <39452BE1.1A31239D@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.134918.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

In your "open-letter" tradition. . .if you send me a write-up of your
"big apple" and "windy city" sagas (your findings, and the boneheaded
rejection of said findings by major media outlets) I promise to run
them in Verbatim. I'll even pay you! (Verbatim pays contributors.)

But I reserve the right to edit for length and to keep us from being
sued for libel. :-)

Erin McKean
editor at verbatimmag.com

>Barry,
>
>You're a lawyer - why don't you sue the Times, Abuzz, and others who are
>plagiarizing your work?  Once you make 'em hurt, they won't do it again.
>
>Meanwhile the 'www.thebigapple.net' domain is for sale.  Buy it and
>publish the
>truth.  Or better yet, put your info on http://www.snopes.com/ and
>http://www.urbanlegends.com/ which are recognized urban legend
>debunking sites.
>
>Andrea
>--
>Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
>"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
>--From "Angry Child" by Aardman Animation


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Tue Jun 13 18:35:16 2000
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:35:16 -0500
Subject: Snorkle Boxes?
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.133516.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was getting Henry a passport yesterday for our trip to Euralex and
visited a large post office on Chicago's far north side. There was a
large banner on the outside of the building telling people not to
park in the no parking zone and that "snorkle boxes" were available
in the nearby K-mart parking lot for customers' convenience.

Are snorkle boxes the post office boxes with the snouty-looking tops,
as opposed to the "pull the door open and put in your letters" type?
I did a desultory look in a few dictionaries--nothing. Ditto on
www.dogpile.com.

Also, on a recent foray into a parking garage downtown, I was advised
to pull up to the next "ticket spitter" since the first one was
broken. Is this the accepted term? It's what I'd call 'em!

Erin McKean


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Tue Jun 13 18:30:34 2000
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:30:34 -0500
Subject: albondigas! no te dije!
In-Reply-To: <34.6563449.26744c40@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUN.2000.133034.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There are a *lot* of Spanish-speaking migrant agricultural workers in
eastern North Carolina. A friend of mine (a Duke alumna) spent a
summer as a rights worker there, making sure that the farmers did
what they were supposed to in terms of housing, education, etc. So
I'm not surprised that there are finally Spanish-language signs there.

I love Spanish-language signs. I'm always trying to apply my
high-school Latin towards figuring them out, regardless of whether I
actually *need* auto insurance or a podiatrist. Of course, in Chicago
there are many, many more than in eastern NC.

Erin McKean

>Driving back from the beach through rural eastern North Carolina I saw this
>sign a sale of double-wide trailors: "Tres dormitorios! Dos banos! [sic] $199
>mes!"
>
>This would not be surprising in southern Texas or southern Florida, but not
>too many years ago the locals down east put up billboards praising the KKK.
>Clearly, bilingual America is here to stay!


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 14 14:55:54 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:55:54 -0700
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.075554.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- "Steve K." <stevek at SHORE.NET> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, Natalie Maynor wrote:
>
> > I would consider putting an accent mark on a word
> like resume
> > when writing in English just as pretentious as
> pronouncing
> > borrowed words in an un-English way.
>
> How about the habit of frozen desserts and heavy
> metal bands to throw
> umlauts all over the place?
>
> (The funniest thing I ever heard the great
> Indo-Europeanist Eric Hamp say
> was his attempt to pronounce Haagen Dazs umlauts and
> all... Those of you
> who know Eric can appreciate this.)
>
> --- Steve K.

I don't know Eric, but I can imagine.  If the story I
heard on PBS is true and not just another urban
legend, Haagen Dazs has no real meaning or root in any
language - it's an impressive looking but meaningless
name that was simply made up by the marketing people
at Pillsbury!



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Wed Jun 14 15:13:41 2000
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:13:41 -0500
Subject: Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0006140845540.22293-100000@shell3.shore.net>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.101341.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am deeply sorry to have to tell you that your friend and colleague,
Frederic G. Cassidy, Chief Editor of the Dictionary of American Regional
English, died this morning.  It is hard to imagine DARE without him.



Joan H. Hall, Associate Editor
Dictionary of American Regional English
6125 Helen C. White Hall
600 N. Park St., Madison, WI 53706
<jdhall at facstaff.wisc.edu>
http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 14 15:21:45 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:21:45 -0400
Subject: Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000614101341.00d0eb74@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.112145.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Go with words Fred. Dennis Preston sure as hell wouldn't have been no
Professor without you.


>I am deeply sorry to have to tell you that your friend and colleague,
>Frederic G. Cassidy, Chief Editor of the Dictionary of American Regional
>English, died this morning.  It is hard to imagine DARE without him.
>
>
>
>Joan H. Hall, Associate Editor
>Dictionary of American Regional English
>6125 Helen C. White Hall
>600 N. Park St., Madison, WI 53706
><jdhall at facstaff.wisc.edu>
>http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Jun 14 15:30:16 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:30:16 -0700
Subject: Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000614101341.00d0eb74@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.083016.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Joan,

Gosh, even with the health problems he'd had in recent years, it's still
one of those shocks.  Do you know of a memorial of some sort (perhaps
connected with DARE) that folks could send a small gift to?

Peter Mc.

--On Wed, Jun 14, 2000 10:13 AM -0500 Joan Houston Hall
<jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU> wrote:

> I am deeply sorry to have to tell you that your friend and colleague,
> Frederic G. Cassidy, Chief Editor of the Dictionary of American Regional
> English, died this morning.  It is hard to imagine DARE without him.
>
>
>
> Joan H. Hall, Associate Editor
> Dictionary of American Regional English
> 6125 Helen C. White Hall
> 600 N. Park St., Madison, WI 53706
> <jdhall at facstaff.wisc.edu>
> http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 14 15:31:25 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:31:25 -0700
Subject: forte (was: Re: Accents in Am. English)
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.083125.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- "A. Vine" <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> wrote:
> "Steve K." wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Lynne Murphy wrote:
> >
> > > New Oxford has the pronuncation 'fort-ay' first,
> and AHD has it last, so
> > > perhaps the American shift toward 'forte' is
> built on the assumption that the
> > > British know best.
> >
> > A sneak preview of things to com: this order of
> pronunciations has
> > been switched for the 4th edition of the AHD, with
> 'for-tay' coming first
> > now.
> >
> > A strong majority of our Usage Panel (74%)
> preferred the two-syllable
> > pronunciation, for what it's worth.

> >
>
> Funny, Rob Kyff just had it in his column, and
> insisted that monosyllabic
> "forte" was the human strength and bisyllabic
> "forte" the musical term.

The French spell "forte" without an accent, the 'e' is
silent, and the word is a single syllable - the silent
"e" indicates the "t" is to be pronounced, the
masculine form being "fort" with a silent "t".  The
Italians pronounce the "e" but an accent is not needed
to indicate this ... placing an accent on the "e" in
Italian would move the stress from the first to second
syllable but would otherwise not change the
pronunciation.  I have never heard the Italian
pronunciation, two syllables with strong stress on the
first, used in English outside of a musical context.

I have heard the pseudo-French "for-tay" - sometimes
mild stress on the first syllable or basically equal
stress on both syllables, but usually stress on second
syllable  - used to indicate a strength or skill, but
I've also heard it pronounced simply as "fort", and
that's the way I was taught to pronounce it in Jr.
High English.

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 14 16:22:04 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:22:04 -0400
Subject: Griefcase
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.122204.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Pittsburgh, where I will check out the Barry Buchanan papers when archives opens at 1 p.m.
   This week's VILLAGE VOICE featured a cover story about the ridiculous amount of paperwork that's processed in foster child cases in New York City.  The caseworker described his briefcase of lengthy, dreary government forms as a "griefcase."
   Any hits on Nexis?
   As I was just about to post this "griefcase," I got the sad news about Fred.


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Wed Jun 14 16:19:01 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:19:01 -0500
Subject: Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000614101341.00d0eb74@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.111901.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Do you know whether he ever got the plant I had sent or saw it?

I am not surprised .  I felt that no news was bad news.

Hang in.

Bob

At 10:13 AM 6/14/00 -0500, you wrote:
>I am deeply sorry to have to tell you that your friend and colleague,
>Frederic G. Cassidy, Chief Editor of the Dictionary of American Regional
>English, died this morning.  It is hard to imagine DARE without him.
>
>
>
>Joan H. Hall, Associate Editor
>Dictionary of American Regional English
>6125 Helen C. White Hall
>600 N. Park St., Madison, WI 53706
><jdhall at facstaff.wisc.edu>
>http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html
>
>


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Wed Jun 14 16:22:09 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:22:09 -0500
Subject: FGC
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.112209.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There was never a better doctoral mentor than Fred Cassidy.  I still
remember the very first class I took from this excellent teacher.  He had
that wonderful gift of letting you go with an idea and not overmentor you.
When you were his research assistant, he let you do your work, not his; a
fact that occasionally got him into trouble with small-minded deanlets.

I will dearly miss the friend of my lifetime.

Bob Wachal


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Wed Jun 14 16:35:47 2000
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:35:47 -0500
Subject: Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000614111901.007df910@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.113547.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Bob,
I'm sorry--I thought I had told you that he did receive a lovely hibiscus
from you and Jane.  I can't tell you for certain how aware he was of
anything--sometimes I feel sure he recognized my voice, but he could
neither see nor speak.

Whoever took your message for the card that came with the plant was of a
different generation (or something!)--the message came through as "Hangin'
there, mentor mine."  Oh, well.

A memorial service is planned for Sunday.  We're hangin' in.

Joan


At 11:19 AM 6/14/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>Do you know whether he ever got the plant I had sent or saw it?
>
>I am not surprised .  I felt that no news was bad news.
>
>Hang in.
>
>Bob
>
>At 10:13 AM 6/14/00 -0500, you wrote:
>>I am deeply sorry to have to tell you that your friend and colleague,
>>Frederic G. Cassidy, Chief Editor of the Dictionary of American Regional
>>English, died this morning.  It is hard to imagine DARE without him.
>>
>>
>>
>>Joan H. Hall, Associate Editor
>>Dictionary of American Regional English
>>6125 Helen C. White Hall
>>600 N. Park St., Madison, WI 53706
>><jdhall at facstaff.wisc.edu>
>>http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html
>>
>>
>


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Wed Jun 14 16:39:17 2000
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:39:17 -0500
Subject: Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000614112209.007c6e00@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.113917.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A number of people have asked how memorials might be made for Fred.  His
family has asked that remembrances be sent to The Frederic G. Cassidy DARE
Fund, The University of Wisconsin, 6131 Helen White Hall, 600 North Park
Street, Madison, WI 53706.


A memorial service is planned for Sunday, June 18, in Madison.


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Wed Jun 14 16:42:47 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:42:47 -0500
Subject: MY CONTRIBUTION
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.114247.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

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From GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA  Wed Jun 14 17:20:38 2000
From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA (GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:20:38 PDT
Subject: FGC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000614112209.007c6e00@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.102038.PDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was privileged to meet Fred Cassidy twice - once when he visited Uvic in
the late '60s when I was a graduate student (he left us a copy of the draft
questionnaires for DARE, which I used later in my dialectology courses and
which are still in the departmental library - I hope!) and again many years
later at an ADS meeting when his presentation was scheduled at the same time
as mine. I was very cross about that, not because I had such a small audience
but because I couldn't go to hear his paper! (It had something to do with his
having to catch a plane, as I recall.)

This is truly the end of an era.

Barbara Harris.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 14 18:00:40 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:00:40 -0400
Subject: Status
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0006140825250.22293-100000@shell3.shore.net>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.140040.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:33 AM -0400 6/14/00, Steve K. wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>
>> Sort of like hearing people pronounce "patio" with /ae/.
>
>AHD 1, back in the 60s, listed the first pronunciation of patio with
>/ae/ (short a, as in bat). This is also the first form in the latest
>Random House College and MW10...
>
>It appears with a-as-in-father in Kenyon & Knott's Pronouncing Dictionary
>Of American English. (1953, a copyright update of 1944). Websters 2nd has
>a-as-in-father; Webster's 3rd has a-as-in-bat, so there seems to have been
>a shift midcentury.
>

I (b. 1945) can't recall ever hearing anything OTHER than /ae/ for the
stressed vowel in "patio" in New York, California, or Wisconsin.  And I'm
sure I would have registered someone saying what would have been processed
as "potty-o", with the a-as-in-"father".  Could there in fact have been
some modicum of taboo avoidance involved in the posited mid-century shift?

Larry


From debaron at NTX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU  Wed Jun 14 17:58:20 2000
From: debaron at NTX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:58:20 -0500
Subject: FGC
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.125820.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is very sad. I will be in Madison for a few days in July and hoped to
be able to see Fred then. Fred Cassidy was the press reader for my first
book, Grammar and Good Taste: Reforming the American Language (1982). I had
known him, before that, from ADS meetings, but our professional contact
really stemmed from that review--which he allowed the press to tell me he
had written. Fred was generous with his praise (the book got published,
after all), and he told me with tact and force exactly where I had gone off
track. The revisions he called for definitely improved the text.  I often
consulted him for later projects, and he always encouraged my work, even
when he disagreed with my conclusions. I imposed on him for letters of
reference from time to time, and after he wrote each of them he'd send me a
little note saying something like, "I've written the letter to so-and-so. It
will do you no harm." I loved that phrase.

I hadn't seen Fred in recent years (I haven't even been to ADS since it
moved to meet with LSA, my departmental duties requiring my attendance at
MLA each year and family obligations precluding two professional trips
during winter vacation)--but did exchange notes from time to time. I will
miss him greatly.

Dennis
__________________
Dennis Baron, Head                       debaron at uiuc.edu
Department of English                            217-333-2390
University of Illinois                          fax: 217-333-4321
608 S. Wright St.      http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron
Urbana, IL 61801


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 14 18:20:59 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:20:59 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <20000614145554.987.qmail@web1301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.142059.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>I don't know Eric, but I can imagine.  If the story I
>heard on PBS is true and not just another urban
>legend, Haagen Dazs has no real meaning or root in any
>language - it's an impressive looking but meaningless
>name that was simply made up by the marketing people
>at Pillsbury!
>
>=====
>James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
>SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
>jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
>                               |or slowly and cautiously.

Not only doesn't H?agen Dazs have any meaning in any language, I don't
believe we're likely to run into too many real world instances of a long
vowel with the first half umlauted (hence presumably fronted) and the
second not.  I suppose if any one could have pronounced that diphthong, it
would have been Eric Hamp.  At least the Dazs part looks like something
that could pass for plausible old German or perhaps Hungarian.  And then
there the umlaut in the Blue ?yster Cult or whatever it was...No wonder
people have started using "diphthong" as an insult!

Larry


From HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU  Wed Jun 14 19:29:36 2000
From: HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:29:36 -0500
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.142936.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not only doesn't H?agen Dazs have any meaning in any language, I don't
believe we're likely to run into too many real world instances of a long
vowel with the first half umlauted (hence presumably fronted) and the
second not.

Larry,

You've misinterpreted the form.  It's clearly OE vowel breaking.  It's the dessert Hrothgar served after Beowulf killed Grendel.

Herb Stahlke


From faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 14 19:29:36 2000
From: faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:29:36 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <v04011705b56d7bfa0599@[130.132.116.12]>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.152936.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>Not only doesn't H?agen Dazs have any meaning in any language, I don't
>believe we're likely to run into too many real world instances of a long
>vowel with the first half umlauted (hence presumably fronted) and the
>second not.

Given that the reverse (diphthong moving from back to front, with
concommitant change in rounding) *does* occur, even if it isn't
cross-linguistically all that common (oy!), can we really assume that
the reverse doesn't?


 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                    new, improved email: faber at pop.haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories            old email, if you must: faber at haskins.yale.edu
New Haven, CT 06511 USA           tel: (203) 865-6163 x258; fax (203) 865-8963


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 14 20:21:33 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:21:33 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <v04210100b56d8d389dec@[130.132.95.163]>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.162133.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Alice Faber writes:

>Laurence Horn wrote:
>>
>>Not only doesn't H?agen Dazs have any meaning in any language, I don't
>>believe we're likely to run into too many real world instances of a long
>>vowel with the first half umlauted (hence presumably fronted) and the
>>second not.
>
>Given that the reverse (diphthong moving from back to front, with
>concommitant change in rounding) *does* occur, even if it isn't
>cross-linguistically all that common (oy!), can we really assume that
>the reverse doesn't?
>
Well, there's nothing wrong with diphthongs like "Hyagen" or "Heagen", but
the spelling -?a- indicates to me some sort of vowel disharmony between two
halves of the diphthong, which would seem quite rare indeed.  But maybe
that's why the ice cream is so pricey--supply & demand and all.  (I do love
their mango sorbet, umlaut--or if Herb is right, reverse diaeresis--be
damned.)

larry


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 14 20:23:49 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:23:49 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <v04011709b56d9877bbf8@[130.132.116.12]>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.162349.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My favorite was a (now defunct?) chain called Burger Fr?sh. Umlauted
burgers are doubtless fr?sher!

dInIs


>Alice Faber writes:
>
>>Laurence Horn wrote:
>>>
>>>Not only doesn't H?agen Dazs have any meaning in any language, I don't
>>>believe we're likely to run into too many real world instances of a long
>>>vowel with the first half umlauted (hence presumably fronted) and the
>>>second not.
>>
>>Given that the reverse (diphthong moving from back to front, with
>>concommitant change in rounding) *does* occur, even if it isn't
>>cross-linguistically all that common (oy!), can we really assume that
>>the reverse doesn't?
>>
>Well, there's nothing wrong with diphthongs like "Hyagen" or "Heagen", but
>the spelling -?a- indicates to me some sort of vowel disharmony between two
>halves of the diphthong, which would seem quite rare indeed.  But maybe
>that's why the ice cream is so pricey--supply & demand and all.  (I do love
>their mango sorbet, umlaut--or if Herb is right, reverse diaeresis--be
>damned.)
>
>larry


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 14 21:53:13 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:53:13 -0400
Subject: Barry Buchanan papers at CMU
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.175313.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   This is like some Don MacLean song about the "day the music died."  Well, anyway, today I went through Barry Buchanan's shoeboxes, and it's a major collection here at Carnegie Mellon University.
  There are 24 shoeboxes for Carnival, Circus, Theater, Vaudeville, Motion Picture, and Acrobatics terminology.  I was able to copy just one shoebox of index cards in a few hours (1-5 p.m.).  However, I'll probably hire some students to help.
  It's way too much to put on ADS-L, although it probably deserves to be online.  I'll probably copy the copies for the OED, the RHHDAS, Jerry Cohen, and anyone else who wants to look at this .
  "A Brief Resume" of Barry Buchanan shows various things, the last positions being 1962-1964 General Manager for Top of the Fair, New York World's Fair, and 1965 to date, Consultant.  It also has:

AUTHOR:  ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SHOW BUSINESS--The first encyclopedia-dictionary of the equipment, technical terminology, language, patois and slang of all phases of the entertainment business from the Greek and Roman theatre through Television.  Currently in the final stage of editing.

  Barry Buchanan died on November 15, 1977.  On pages 2-3 of his will, he mentions the work and authorizes several members of VARIETY (Leonard Traube, Abel Green, Sid Silverman) to posthumously publish it for him.  He also bequeaths papers to Carnegie Mellon University.
  This 9-11-83 letter from Bonnie Johns of the CMU West Coast Drama Alumni Clan reads in part:

  So many people have been disinterested in Barry's (I feel I know him on a first-name basis) papers they've become low-priority.  The enclosed flier shows Barry was putting together an encyclopedia.  Maybe Charlie Willard can find out if it was ever published.  Tho', if so, why would he have saved all his boxes of indexed terms?  At any rate, Jane and I tossed what we felt could easily be found in any current text or library.  We saved the "goodies"--boxes of theatre, circus and vaudeville slang, terms and colloquialisms (though they'll need some sorting out too).  We also included well-kept brochures on old film equipment, etc., circus programs (he travelled with several companies), playbills and theatre memorabilia.  He certainly was organized and with quite an historical bent.
   (...) I'm glad you called me to look through Barry's papers.  He obviously felt he'd left something of worth and I felt, especially after so much rejection, that someone should take a friendly open-eye look to it.  (...) Whithin those hours we delighted in exciting finds, apologized aloud to Barry for what we threw out as he was quite consumed with his research, and laughed over vaudeville (and other ) terms which helped maintain our level of humor with the warehouse people who just wanted us to get the stuff out of there.  We're anxious to find out more about him; from what we've glimpsed he seems quite a caring man whose dreams were never quite realized.

  There are some etymologies on the indexed cards, but no citations to other material, unfortunately.  Although  Buchanan was always working on this project, it appears that all of the cards date from about 1938-1939, when he described his boxes of cards in that newspaper article I previously posted.
  Here's an example in the "Motion Picture" shoebox:

THE BIG APPLE  Slang for New York City. (from negro patois)

  This is exactly what we would expect for the late 1930s.
  Some other index cards and terms, at random:

LOVE-SICK LOUIE  Amusement park slang for any young man who seems to be very much in love with the girl who is accompanying him.

LEMONADER  Slang for confidence man; a grifter (see both).  So-called, because the subject of his activities is "handed a lemon", i.e., cheated.

KEISTER  Slang for a pitchman's case, in which he carries his stock, and which he places on a tripod when selling.  The combination is called tripes and keister.  Cf. tripes.  Also, a suitcase of bag; also, a safe; also, sometimes used in synonymous with jail; also, the buttocks; also, a cheapshot.  The term stems from an obsolete use of a similar slang term keyster, i.e., anything that is locked with a key.

FUZZ Slang for a policeman; the police.  The term is derived from an incident in which a female detective with fuzzy hair caused the arrest of a grifter.


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Wed Jun 14 22:35:07 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:35:07 -0500
Subject: Fred Cassidy
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.173507.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've got a wonderful picture I took of Fred Cassidy standing on top
of a large boulder somewhere around Bangor, Wales, in '87.  I remember
being impressed with his energy as he scrambled up its side.  I guess
it was that same energy that kept him going, both physically and
mentally, for another thirteen years.

And suddenly I'm reminded of Michael Miller.  No doubt on the morning
of the day I took that picture of Fred Cassidy on the rock, Michael
and I, the early risers in the group, enjoyed good conversations
while drinking our coffee and tea in the tiny room at the end of the
hall in the dorm we all stayed in.  I feel fortunate to have known
Fred Cassidy and Michael Miller, two great human beings.

   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 14 23:03:15 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:03:15 -0400
Subject: Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <200006142235.RAA06505@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.190315.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Natalie,

The day before (or after) that, Fred, Walter Cichocki, my wife Carol and I
went for a drive around Bangor, to the boondocks, which Fred and I both
liked. We got lost (in the road, not the direction, sense) and decided to
go up and over (rather than the stodgy, which Fred was never for, around).
As we came to the end of the road and I started to turn back, Fred hopped
out of the car, opened the sheep gate, and waved us through. "Got to be a
way down," said the only person (other than Santa Claus) who I ever saw who
actually had a twinkle in his eye. A little later we came down on the other
side, the bright lights of Bangor in the distance.

dInIs

>I've got a wonderful picture I took of Fred Cassidy standing on top
>of a large boulder somewhere around Bangor, Wales, in '87.  I remember
>being impressed with his energy as he scrambled up its side.  I guess
>it was that same energy that kept him going, both physically and
>mentally, for another thirteen years.
>
>And suddenly I'm reminded of Michael Miller.  No doubt on the morning
>of the day I took that picture of Fred Cassidy on the rock, Michael
>and I, the early risers in the group, enjoyed good conversations
>while drinking our coffee and tea in the tiny room at the end of the
>hall in the dorm we all stayed in.  I feel fortunate to have known
>Fred Cassidy and Michael Miller, two great human beings.
>
>   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 00:15:00 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:15:00 -0400
Subject: Glossary of Swing and Jitterbug Terms (part 1)
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.201500.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I just reached the last line when AOL signed me off.  I'll try this again in two parts.
   This undated, unsourced item was in the Barry Buchanan papers.  Lighter doesn't cite it in the RHHDAS, and also doesn't have some of these terms.
   This probably dates from 1938 or 1939.

(Pg. 32)
_Glossary of Swing and Jitterbug Terms_

"alligators"...swing fans, jitterbugs, also dancers
"barrel house"...crude, low down playing
"beat"...tired, lacking anything, low in spirit
"beat to your socks"...lacking everything, broke, exhausted
"beat your chops"...to talk, be loquacious
"blow your top off"...in happy spirit, in a gay mood
"boogie-woogie"...heavy bass (as applied to blues)
"break it up"...to stop the show
"bring down"...depressing, anything you don't like
"bust your conk"...something that will make you enthuse, "send you," go to your head, apply yourself diligently
"canary"...girl vocalist in orchestra
"carpet-cutting"...dancing (same as rug-cutter)
"cat"...devotee of swing
"chick"...a girl
"chilly-chang"...sensational, out-of-this-world
"clambake"...every man for himself, resulting in bad music
"come again"...to do better than you are doing
"cooling"...laying off between engagements
"corn"...not modern, "dated"
"corny"...old fashioned
"creep"...slow dancing, not much pep
"cut out"...depart or leave
"dig"...look, meet or comprehend
"dig me"...see me later and tell me more
"Dracula"...in a class by itself
"easy Jackson"...a guy who will take a drink, but seldom buys one
"evil" in bad humor
"fall out"...oversome with emotion
"fems"...the fairer sex
"floogie"...a dance innovation, a dance step
(Col. 2--ed.)
"floosey"...a girl who rides on the rear seat of a motorcycle
"fluke"...an odd person, very clever
"fooey"...terrible, false, hard to believe
"four-six and five"...a jumbled conversation
"from Dixie"...stale, lacking interest, antiquated
"fruiting"...fooling around
"gage"...reefers
"gate"...a salutation, a man, a "hepster" or a pal
"ghee"...a fellow, man, guy
"got your boots on"...know what ti's all about, awake, aware of what is going on
"grip the flesh"...let me shake your hand, shake my hand
"gutbucket"...low down music
"having myself a time"...to enjoy one's self, having fun or celebrating
"he walks in six-eight tempo"...someone who has been kicked in the shins
"hep cat"...one who knows what it's all about
"hepped"...to be wise to things, in-the-know
"high"...intoxicated by liquor or marihuana
"high as a kite"...giddy, feeling good, aesthetic
"hitchy"...snooty or conceited
"icky"...one who is not hep; a corny person
"in the chips"...having money
"in the groove"...inspired emotionally
"in your cups"...intoxicated, half-asleep
"jam"...improvised swing music
"jamboree"...a meeting place for jitterbugs, a dance contest
"jam session"...a swingfest in which all men improvise
"Jeff"...a fellow (same as ghee)
"jelly"...anything free; on the house
"jitterbug"...a swing fan, a dance of the modern school

Continued on pg. 33...


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 00:44:08 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:44:08 -0400
Subject: Glossary of Swing and Jitterbug Terms (part 2)
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.204408.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Pg. 33:

"jitter sauce"...liquor
"jive"...the jargon itself, lingo or speech
"jive wire"...a sophisticated jitterbug
"jog up the cats"...let's have some music, give out with the orchestra
"joint is jumping"...the place is lively, people making merry
"kill me"...show me a good time  (KIDS!  DO NOT USE!  THESE JIVE MASTERS ARE PROFESSIONALS!--ed.)
"killer-diller"...a great thrill, or the "tops"
"kopassetic"...absolutely all right, okay
"krum"...a cheap person, inconsequential
"licks"...hot musical phrases
"light up"...to smoke a reefer or cigarette
"long hair"...musician who plays by note, or prefers the classics
"mahogany"...piano
"mellow"...all right,, fine, in good mood
"muggin"...making 'em laugh, giving out with "jive"
"neigho pops"...nothing doing Mister
"nix out"...eliminate
"no soap"...nothing at all
"off the cob"...corny, old-fashioned in style or taste
"out-of-this-world"...perfect rendition, perfection, moved to the nth degree
"pitch a little woo"...make love, become affectionate
"plenty hep"...smart, having great understanding, wise to everything
"plenty of bounce"...lots of rhythm, full of pep
"reefer"...marihuana cigarette
"rib"...to tease, give a person the "burn-up," or annoy someone
"rock 'em solid"...give it all you've got
"rock me"...send me, or to swing on down
"rug cutter"...a very good dancer (same as carpet-cutter)
(COl. 2--ed.)
"sailing"...high, aesthetic, or intoxicated
"salty"...angry or mad
"schmaltz"...unctious music
"send me"...to arouse the emotion, pleased, thrilled, amused
"sharp"...nifty, neat and tricky
"sharp as a tack"...very sharp, perfect, great in every respect, groomed to super-perfection, show-off
"slip me some skin"...congratulate me, give me your hand
"so help me"...it's the truth, believe me
"solid"...all right, great, swell, terrific
"stooge"...a sap, a vapid person
"strictly barrel-house"...playing an instrument in a low-down manner
"swingfest"...a gathering of jitterbugs, dancing, a jamboree
"take a powder"...leave, take a walk, go away
"take off"...playing a solo, going-to-town
"tea"...reefers, marihuana
"teapad"...any place where they smoke weed
"the stuff is here"...on hand, plenty of it
"togged to the bricks"...dressed to kill, from head to foot
"trilly"...get started, exit, cut loose
"truck"...to dance, the dance itself
"truckin' on down"...to go somehwere, to leave
"twerps"..no-good guys
"twister to the slammer"...key to a door
"twits"...young punks, wise-crackers
"unhip"...not familiar, not wise
"viper"...one who smokes the weed
"weed"...marihuana
"whip that thing"...play that instrument
"whipped up"...beat, exhausted
"woo-hoo"...ain't that something?
"zas-zu-zas"...music, a shout of enjoyment


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Thu Jun 15 00:46:31 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:46:31 -0700
Subject: Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000614101341.00d0eb74@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.174631.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am so very sorry.  I guess I just kept expecting him to bounce back
from this latest problem as he had previously.  I am left with very
fond memories of talks and drinks and his twinkle.  He will be
missed.  (And I'm so glad I was able to catch that picture of him
dancing with Vicki in Madison.)

Rima


From Dfcoye at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 01:13:57 2000
From: Dfcoye at AOL.COM (Dfcoye at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:13:57 EDT
Subject: forte (was: Re: Accents in Am. English)
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.211357.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'd recommend using the accent marks in words like cafe, protege, soufle, and
fiance where it indicates that the final 'e' is to be pronounced as in French
(IPA /e/), and it otherwise looks like a silent e.  But in cases  like the
first 'e' of elite where nearly everyone in the USA uses epsilon, or schwa
there's no point in using the accent mark (I would have said absolutely
everyone, but two days ago I heard a colleague pronouncing it /'e lit/-- it
took me a minute or two to figure out what he meant).  Similarly 'resume'
needs an accent on the final 'e', but none on the first 'e' because the first
is epsilon, the second /e/ for nearly everyone-- again I have encountered the
rare pronunciation of the first vowel as /e/-- but it sounds bizarre.
Curriculum vitae, by the way should be pronounced to rhyme with 'mighty' if
the normal rules of anglicization of Latin were to be followed, but I think
most people use the 'restored Latin' pronunciation /'vi tei/.   But no one
says /ku rIk u lum/... consistency is not our forte (which you almost have to
pronounce /for te/ or everyone will THINK you're  ignorant.

Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From Dfcoye at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 01:26:53 2000
From: Dfcoye at AOL.COM (Dfcoye at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:26:53 EDT
Subject: Passing of William Moulton
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.212653.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Princeton papers announced today that William Moulton died yesterday,
virtually the same day as Fred Cassidy.   Professor Moulton was my advisor at
Princeton (I believe I was the last PhD candidate he worked with.  He was at
Princeton from 1960-79 and before that at Cornell.   During the WWII he was a
captain in the armed forces preparing guides to help servicemen and women
learn German.  He was renowned for his work in Swiss German, but he had an
avid interest in American dialects as well, and was a long-standing member of
ADS.   He was a great guy to work with and a terrific story-teller.
    Apparently he had been living in Exeter, NH where the service will be
held.

Dale Coye
The College of NJ.


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 02:35:59 2000
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (P2052 at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:35:59 EDT
Subject: INPUTS
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.223559.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Lately, I have observed a number of memos pluralizing the noun input (pl. inpu
ts), which I had assumed to be a mass noun.   While the various dictionaries
also cited verb forms, specifically -ed and -ing, none a 3rd person singular
form (-s), thereby precluding any possible confusion between the 3rd person
singular and the plural noun.  Is this a new trend which is applicable to
similar nouns, such as intake (pl. intakes), output (pl. outputs), or
feedback (pl. feedbacks)? Or is it specific to the word input?  Is this a
specialized term (I've seen it used primarily in memos from computer literate
military personnel .)  Or could this use possibly be a mistake that is having
ripple effects?
                            PAT


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Thu Jun 15 03:56:27 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:56:27 -0400
Subject: Fred Cassidy
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.235627.0400.>

Very sad indeed. Here are a few memories from a non-academic:

I first met Fred in 1967 with my wife who had just arrived from India. We
were on an extended honeymoon and had started going on business and
professional trips together. DARE was in its teens, I think. So were
computers, with Dick Venezky at the helm of the DARE project. I had several
meetings with Fred and his colleagues, including one in his office when he
suggested I buy a copy of his Dictionary of Jamaican English instead of
referring to it. Later we had lunch together.

Fred was one of three academics I approached for blurbs when my NYT Everyday
Dictionary was published in 1982. I could always count on him as a friend
and helper. Whenever I gave a paper (ADS, MLA, DSNA, etc.) he could be
expected to be there. He contributed an unpublished "Song of the Native
Speaker" (which he had presented to the Linguistic Circle of Madison in
1962) to that 1985 book of mine. He was one of only four in an audience that
attended a paper I gave the ANS in 1988. I felt honoured. I may not be
giving any more papers, but I will miss him.

I wanted to celebrate the 30th anniversary of our 1967 meeting (at least
nominally) at the DSNA meeting held in Madison, but couldn't make it because
of problems. Before this becomes a resume of my own career, let me say
Requiescat in pace, Fred Cassidy.
===============================================

Joan Houston Hall wrote:

> I am deeply sorry to have to tell you that your friend and colleague,
> Frederic G. Cassidy, Chief Editor of the Dictionary of American Regional
> English, died this morning.  It is hard to imagine DARE without him.
>
> Joan H. Hall, Associate Editor
> Dictionary of American Regional English
> 6125 Helen C. White Hall
> 600 N. Park St., Madison, WI 53706
> <jdhall at facstaff.wisc.edu>
> http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Jun 15 03:59:19 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:59:19 -0500
Subject: Fred Cassidy
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.225919.0500.>

I'm speechless.  Fred was the first speaker in the Tamony Lecture Series.  Part of me died
this morning, and I just now found out..

DMLance

Joan Houston Hall wrote:

> I am deeply sorry to have to tell you that your friend and colleague,
> Frederic G. Cassidy, Chief Editor of the Dictionary of American Regional
> English, died this morning.  It is hard to imagine DARE without him.
>
> Joan H. Hall, Associate Editor
> Dictionary of American Regional English
> 6125 Helen C. White Hall
> 600 N. Park St., Madison, WI 53706
> <jdhall at facstaff.wisc.edu>
> http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Jun 15 04:26:15 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:26:15 -0500
Subject: Fred Cassidy
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUN.2000.232615.0500.>

Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:

> ...  (And I'm so glad I was able to catch that picture of him
> dancing with Vicki in Madison.)

And I'm glad I took that picture that was reproduced in the DSNA Newsletter.  What a
soir?e that Madison meeting was -- with Fred, Fred, Fred, Joan, Joan, and others.

As I've continued doing my e-mail this evening, I've had a sinking feeling with each one I
saw on some piddly little usage item, but heartened by each message on Fred.  Gradually,
the sinking feelings lessened because I knew Fred would chide me.  The only thing I want
to think about for a while is Frederic Gomes Cassidy.

DMLance


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Thu Jun 15 08:30:24 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 01:30:24 -0700
Subject: Fred Cassiday
In-Reply-To: <200005310400.VAA21085@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.013024.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Joan and all the DARE staff,

        Our hearts are very much with you in the truly irreplaceable loss
of a good friend and colleague. Fred was certainly one of the giants of
the field, yet so warmly human and modest. Many of the comments about him
mention his twinkle, which so aptly characterized him. Not only DARE but
the whole field of linguistics has lost a great man and a wonderful human
being.

        Rudy Troike


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 15 12:08:43 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:08:43 -0400
Subject: INPUTS
In-Reply-To: <bb.441d784.26799b0f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.080843.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 14 Jun 2000 P2052 at AOL.COM wrote:

> Lately, I have observed a number of memos pluralizing the noun input (pl. inpu
> ts), which I had assumed to be a mass noun.   While the various dictionaries
> also cited verb forms, specifically -ed and -ing, none a 3rd person singular
> form (-s), thereby precluding any possible confusion between the 3rd person
> singular and the plural noun.  Is this a new trend which is applicable to
> similar nouns, such as intake (pl. intakes), output (pl. outputs), or
> feedback (pl. feedbacks)? Or is it specific to the word input?  Is this a
> specialized term (I've seen it used primarily in memos from computer literate
> military personnel .)  Or could this use possibly be a mistake that is having
> ripple effects?

The OED has "input" as a countable noun in computing as far back as 1973,
and it probably was in use in the 1940s.  In non-computer senses this was
a countable noun back to the 1700s.  I imagine that the other nouns you
mention also have a history of countable usage.

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Jun 15 12:48:38 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:48:38 +0100
Subject: 'jo girl'
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.134838.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A friend forwarded me this article from "High Country News" with this 'jo girl'
reference (2nd paragraph).  Do people know the term?  Is it only girls?

Lynne

> Not your average beauty queen
> UNCOMMON WESTERNERS
> Profile by Lisa Jones
>
> Rachel Benally, recent runner-up in the Southwest Regional Miss Navajo
> Pageant, Internet surfer, and unflinching slaughterer of her grandmother's
> goats, lies in a reclining chair in her Aunt Sharon's living room. She is
> recovering from last night's TV-watching marathon. Wrapped in a comforter,
> she is discussing things with me and her cousin, Heather Begay.
>
> "I'm not into dating," says Rachel, who is 24 years old, with a round,
> serious face and long black hair. "No guys in high school. Even in college,
> all I ever did was study in my room. I'm not like Heather," she laughs.
> Heather, who is 12, is lying down on the floor wearing black, shiny
> sweatpants, a black Nike T-shirt and a large crucifix pendant. She retorts
> that Rachel is a "Jo Girl" - a girl who likes to speak Navajo. Heather can
> speak Navajo, too, but only does so when she has to, with her grandparents.
> "No one speaks it," she explains. "Only older people do; maybe people over 30
> or 40 years old."
>
[rest of article deleted]
> ? copyright 2000 High Country News and Lisa Jones
> ______________________________________________


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 13:12:27 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:12:27 EDT
Subject: Passing of William Moulton
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.091227.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was an undergraduate at Cornell when I took a course in Middle High German
from William Moulton. He had us memorize 50 lines of the Nibelungenlied and
said that long after we'd forgotten the rest of the course, we'd remember
that. He was right -
Es was ein kuneginne gesessen ueber see/ Ninder ir geliche was deheiniu me
(sorry for the misspellings). . . .
- Allan Metcalf


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 13:12:26 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:12:26 EDT
Subject: Fred Cassidy
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.091226.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Among his countless accomplishments, Fred is incidentally responsible for the
longest-running and most popular feature of the Newsletter of the American
Dialect Society. In the summer of 1977, when he visited Raven McDavid's NEH
seminar at the University of Chicago, I as a new editor suggested that he
have a column in each issue telling us about progress on the as yet
unpublished dictionary. He immediately thought of something better: a column
tantalizing us with obscure words and asking our help. Ever since, the DARE
queries have invited our participation and reminded us that DARE is an ADS
project - and worthy of our financial support too, while we're at it.

No. 48 in the series will appear in the "May" issue. It was going to the
printer yesterday but will be delayed a week to include full coverage of
events in Madison. - Allan Metcalf


From Allynherna at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 13:53:56 2000
From: Allynherna at AOL.COM (Allynherna at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:53:56 EDT
Subject: Fred Cassidy
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.095356.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What sad, sad news.  I consider the hours spent talking with Fred at meetings
and the letters about linguistics and travel that we exchanged such treasures.
(Goodbye dear Fred--it won't be the same without you.)
Allyn


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Thu Jun 15 14:48:45 2000
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:48:45 -0500
Subject: Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <b6.67d150f.267a39f4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.094845.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Obituaries for Fred can be seen at http://www.madison.com   (click on the
"Obituaries" link)  and at
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/obit-f-cassidy.html.


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Thu Jun 15 16:21:00 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:21:00 -0400
Subject: patio
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.122100.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Steve K." <stevek at SHORE.NET> writes:

>>>>>
On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Rudolph C Troike wrote:

> Sort of like hearing people pronounce "patio" with /ae/.

AHD 1, back in the 60s, listed the first pronunciation of patio with
/ae/ (short a, as in bat). This is also the first form in the latest
Random House College and MW10...

It appears with a-as-in-father in Kenyon & Knott's Pronouncing Dictionary
Of American English. (1953, a copyright update of 1944). Websters 2nd has
a-as-in-father; Webster's 3rd has a-as-in-bat, so there seems to have been
a shift midcentury.
<<<<<

/ae/ is the only way I've EVER heard it. We had one when I was a kid (NYC
suburbs, 50s). Is the /a/-as-in-father pron from Spanish?

-- Mark


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Thu Jun 15 16:24:04 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:24:04 -0400
Subject: Great expectorations (was: Accents in Am. English)
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.122404.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Natalie Maynor <maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU> writes:

>>>>>
I would consider putting an accent mark on a word like resume
when writing in English just as pretentious as pronouncing
borrowed words in an un-English way.  (I find it especially
amusing when a pseudo-sophisticate screws up and accidentally
spits on the listener in an attempt to pronounce Bach "properly.")
<<<<<

In Klingon this happens all the time!  }}}:->\  Just t'other day I had to avert
my face from my interlocutors when exemplifying -- over lunch -- the voiceless
uvular and coronal affricates Q and tlh. Rice all over....

      marqem, tlhIngan veQbeq la'Hom -- Heghbej ghIHmoHwI'pu'!
 Subcmdr. Marke'm, Klingon Sanitation Corps -- Death to Litterbugs!
                     http://world.std.com/~mam/
           http://world.std.com/~mam/klingon/Klingon.html


From mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Jun 15 19:05:02 2000
From: mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Salikoko Mufwene)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:05:02 -0700
Subject: REMEMBERING Fred Cassidy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000615094845.00d141a8@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.120502.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     I met Fred Cassidy at a conference of the Society for Caribbean
Linguistics in Aruba in 1980. I was then testing the new waters of creole
studies, kind of retooling myself after graduate training in semantics and
syntax and marginal training in language contact through a reading course.
Fred was one of few people who spoke to me after my presentation and
suggested I pay more attention to subtle semantic distinctions between
constructions that appear synonymous at first glance. His example, as I
remember, was the important distinction between /mi don taak/ and /mi taak
don/ in Jamaican Creole.

     Fred was very helpful to me in subsequent years when we met at
conferences, like in Jamaica in 1984, in Barbados in 1992, and recently in
London in 1997. He paid careful attention to my presentations, my answers
to questions, and to the often-agressive questions I asked other
presenters. (At least that's impression he gave me.) He taught me the value
of collaborating with colleagues who do not share my positions and to
realize that sometimes the differences in our views are not as big as they
seem. In 1997 he even suggested that one specific such a colleage and I
should perhaps get together an write an essay on those specific issues
where we disagree, at least as an exercise in articulating our positions
clearly to each other and bridging our differences. I hope this so-far
nameless and esteemed colleague of mine and I will some day make the time
to honor Fred with such an essay.

     In 1992 I had the privilege of having a paper of mine published in the
Festschrift to him. As much as I hailed his contribution to the debate on
the development of Gullah, I just couldn't resist the congenital impulse of
disputing some of his positions. Fred wrote me about my paper, with thanks,
and promised to address those issues I raised. Nobody else to whose
Festschrift I have contributed has ever written me and I was touched by
Fred's cooperative reaction. What a fine teacher he must have been to those
who were even closer to him! It is a shame he did not have the time, no
live longer enough to say his last words on those issues.

     Like many other scholars, I have been influenced by Fred's work. Every
time I open it, I discover something that the earlier state of my
mind/knowledge was not ready to process on earlier occasions. He was
eclectic and so receptive to new ideas. He was so supportive of younger
scholars. His encouragements meant a world to me.

    Well, Fred, you are gone and have left us so sad. On the other hand,
look what important legacy you have bequeathed all of us with. DARE is only
part of a long litany of accomplishments. I am very grateful and I'll miss
you.

Sali.


**********************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
**********************************************************


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Thu Jun 15 17:28:16 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:28:16 -0400
Subject: patio
In-Reply-To: <852568FF.0059C452.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.132816.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:

> /ae/ is the only way I've EVER heard it. We had one when I was a kid (NYC
> suburbs, 50s). Is the /a/-as-in-father pron from Spanish?

The etymology is via Spanish, so I'd assume so.

I think what could have possibly have happened, and I freely admit this is
only armchair speculation without a single whit of research, is that prior
to WWII, patios were not all that common, and with the rise of suburbia,
postwar, they became far more common. Perhaps pre-war there was some
connection to life in the villa or something, and postwar when you bought
a new tract house it was something that came with. If I were looking into
it further, that's the track I'd start on.

--- Steve K.


From prez234 at JUNO.COM  Fri Jun 16 06:28:46 2000
From: prez234 at JUNO.COM (Joseph McCollum)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 01:28:46 CDT
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.012846.CDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've always said "fortay" -- and to me, the word is borrowed from Latin,
meaning
"a strong point," the neuter nominative of fortis.  Remember the Olympic
motto, "Citius, Altius, Fortius."

Someone else had mentioned "data" -- On the TV show, Star Trek:  The Next
Generation, someone calls Data "Dat-ta" and he immediately corrects him
and he says his name is "Day-ta."  Of course, the classical Latin
pronunciation would be "Dat-ta" but as in "silo" a vowel on the end of an
Anglo-Saxon word can make the previous vowel long, "Day-ta."

So, would I be off the mark in saying that "Day-ta" is singular but
"Dat-ta" is plural?
We have an in-house editor who insists that data is always plural.  I've
always liked the expression:  "If you torture the data enough, it will
confess to anything."  (somehow "they will confess" doesn't carry quite
the same effect).  Then again, maybe it's like "Ham and eggs is my
favorite breakfast."


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Thu Jun 15 17:46:53 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:46:53 -0700
Subject: Accents in Am. English
In-Reply-To: <20000616.012942.8487.1.prez234@juno.com>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.104653.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I always use data as an uncountable noun, which I think is pretty standard
these days. I think the same is true of ham and eggs, although I would
imagine people who work with food would probably use it as a singular and
plural form as well as an uncountable noun.

I was told to stop pronouncing data as dahta because of the popularization
of dayta in the Next Generation.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
>Of Joseph McCollum
>
>Someone else had mentioned "data" -- On the TV show, Star Trek:  The Next
>Generation, someone calls Data "Dat-ta" and he immediately corrects him
>and he says his name is "Day-ta."  Of course, the classical Latin
>pronunciation would be "Dat-ta" but as in "silo" a vowel on the end of an
>Anglo-Saxon word can make the previous vowel long, "Day-ta."
>
>So, would I be off the mark in saying that "Day-ta" is singular but
>"Dat-ta" is plural?
>We have an in-house editor who insists that data is always plural.  I've
>always liked the expression:  "If you torture the data enough, it will
>confess to anything."  (somehow "they will confess" doesn't carry quite
>the same effect).  Then again, maybe it's like "Ham and eggs is my
>favorite breakfast."


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Jun 15 17:56:42 2000
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:56:42 -0700
Subject: Status
In-Reply-To: <v04011701b56d77a1feb1@[130.132.116.12]>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.105642.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm with Larry. "Potty-o" for patio sounds raw-ther pretentious to me (b.
1943, native speaker of northern Illinois-ese).>

Peter R.

> I (b. 1945) can't recall ever hearing anything OTHER than /ae/ for the
> stressed vowel in "patio" in New York, California, or Wisconsin.  And I'm
> sure I would have registered someone saying what would have been processed
> as "potty-o", with the a-as-in-"father".  Could there in fact have been
> some modicum of taboo avoidance involved in the posited mid-century shift?
>
> Larry
>


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Jun 15 18:07:14 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:07:14 -0700
Subject: patio
In-Reply-To: <852568FF.0059C452.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.110714.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember as a kid in the early 40s in Southern California (where most
houses had a patio) hearing the occasional "potty-o," which stood out
because I mostly heard "patio" (with /ae/).  I don't remember hearing
anything but the latter since then.

Peter Mc.

--On Thu, Jun 15, 2000 12:21 PM -0400 Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:

> "Steve K." <stevek at SHORE.NET> writes:
>
>>>>>>
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>
>> Sort of like hearing people pronounce "patio" with /ae/.
>
> AHD 1, back in the 60s, listed the first pronunciation of patio with
> /ae/ (short a, as in bat). This is also the first form in the latest
> Random House College and MW10...
>
> It appears with a-as-in-father in Kenyon & Knott's Pronouncing Dictionary
> Of American English. (1953, a copyright update of 1944). Websters 2nd has
> a-as-in-father; Webster's 3rd has a-as-in-bat, so there seems to have been
> a shift midcentury.
> <<<<<
>
> /ae/ is the only way I've EVER heard it. We had one when I was a kid (NYC
> suburbs, 50s). Is the /a/-as-in-father pron from Spanish?
>
> -- Mark



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 19:29:55 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:29:55 -0400
Subject: Busker (continued)
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.152955.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from the Carnegie Mellon University library archives.  I leave for Chicago at 8:10 p.m.  I've never been to Madison, Wisconsin--is it easy to get to by train/plane from Chicago on Sunday?

--------------------------------------------------------
JOE BLOW

  The Barry Buchanan papers have "Blow, Joe--see Joe Blow" under Circus (Slang).  I haven't gotten to "J" yet.  Joe Blow's from the circus?

--------------------------------------------------------
BUSKER (continued)

  We had a "busker" discussion a little while back.  It's here in CIRCUS:

busker  Colloquialism for a performance given without admission charge.  A collection is taken up during the performance.  This procedure is never followed, except in the case of a stranded show, which wants to raise enough money for railroad fare to another town, or to get home.  The term is derived from Buskin (which see under Section Theater).

busking  Giving a performance at which a collection is taken up.  Cf. busker.

--------------------------------------------------------
PATIO

  I've got a "patio" somewhere.  At least 1890s.


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Thu Jun 15 19:37:20 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:37:20 -0400
Subject: Chicago ---> Madison
In-Reply-To: <200006151928.PAA15648@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.153720.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It should be pretty easy to get there by Greyhound. It wouldn't be
difficult by plane, but I would imagine that it would be insanely
expensive *and* it's near enough that when you factor in the amount of
time getting to and waiting at O'Hare, you're just as well off taking the
bus.

Per greyhound.com you've got a choice of

6:15 am (4 hours, 10 m)
7:15 am (3 hrs, 40 m)
10:30 am (3 hrs, 50 m)
11:30 am (4 hrs, 10 m)
2:00 pm (3 hrs 45 m)
5:00 pm (4 hrs, 5 m)
7:00 pm (4 hrs 5m)
9:45 pm (2 hrs 50 min!)
9:45 pm (3 hrs 35m)

The fare appears to be $20.50 one-way.

Can't really beat that.


--- Steve K.


From mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Jun 15 22:05:31 2000
From: mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Salikoko Mufwene)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:05:31 -0700
Subject: Chicago ---> Madison
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0006151532440.16936-100000@shell3.shore.net>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.150531.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:37 PM 6/15/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>It should be pretty easy to get there by Greyhound. It wouldn't be
>difficult by plane, but I would imagine that it would be insanely
>expensive *and* it's near enough that when you factor in the amount of
>time getting to and waiting at O'Hare, you're just as well off taking the
>bus.
>
    I must have missed the message to which Steve's is responding. I plan
to drive to Madison on Sunday morning for the memorial service.
Unfortunately, since I should fly to Paris on Monday, I must return to
Chicago right after the reception. If anybody would like a ride from
Chicago, please contact me.

Sali.


**********************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
**********************************************************


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Jun 15 20:37:55 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:37:55 -0500
Subject: Status
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.153755.0500.>

In 20th century American English, a word spelled p-a-t-i-o or v-i-d-e-o would have a
"short vowel" in the first syllable.  How would s-t-u-d-e-o as a neologism be pronounced
nowadays?  Which of the regional variants of American "short o" would be the equivalent of
Spanish /a/ -- California, New York, Chicahgo, Chicawgo, north/east/south/central/west
Texas, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Wisconsin?  Maybe a Chicahgoan's pronunciation of 'patio' with
/a/ would sound sort of OK, but others sound either affected or
intentional-recognition-of-borrowing.  Because of my South Texas background, I have
ambivalent feelings and use the Spanish-like vowel with some people and the American
English pronunciation with others.  Most of the American renderings of the vowel in 'pot'
are rather different from the Spanish vowel.

DMLance


Peter Richardson wrote:

> I'm with Larry. "Potty-o" for patio sounds raw-ther pretentious to me (b.
> 1943, native speaker of northern Illinois-ese).>
>
> Peter R.
>
> > I (b. 1945) can't recall ever hearing anything OTHER than /ae/ for the
> > stressed vowel in "patio" in New York, California, or Wisconsin.  And I'm
> > sure I would have registered someone saying what would have been processed
> > as "potty-o", with the a-as-in-"father".  Could there in fact have been
> > some modicum of taboo avoidance involved in the posited mid-century shift?
> >
> > Larry
> >


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun 15 20:30:47 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:30:47 -0700
Subject: REMEMBERING Fred Cassidy
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.133047.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

a very short addition to the heartfelt appreciations of fred...

along with dwight bolinger, fred was my exemplar of scholarship
united with menschlichkeit and great good humor.  the world is
much less without such people.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 20:41:46 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:41:46 -0400
Subject: ADS t-shirts
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.164146.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I need something to wear.  Is anyone selling those ADS t-shirts?  Can we have a Fred Cassidy ADS t-shirt made up?
   We can copy the obituaries, sign a petition, and write to the U.S. Postal Service for a Fred Cassidy postage stamp.  There might be a ten-year waiting period, though.


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 15 21:11:40 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:11:40 EDT
Subject: ADS t-shirts
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.171140.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>Can we have a Fred Cassidy ADS t-shirt made up?<<
Excellent suggestion for the T-shirt committee (Dennis Preston, David
Barnhart). - Allan Metcalf


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Thu Jun 15 22:20:12 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:20:12 -0500
Subject: Status
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.172012.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter said:
> I'm with Larry. "Potty-o" for patio sounds raw-ther pretentious to me (b.
> 1943, native speaker of northern Illinois-ese).>

Larry said:
> > I (b. 1945) can't recall ever hearing anything OTHER than /ae/ for the
> > stressed vowel in "patio" in New York, California, or Wisconsin.  And I'm

It appears that there's a consensus among those of us of A Certain Age.
I (b. 1943, native speaker of Mississippi) would have assumed that
anybody saying potty-o was making a joke.
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Jun 15 23:47:42 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:47:42 -0700
Subject: patio
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.164742.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I seem to recall my mother jokingly referring to the patio as a "pah-sho" when
she was trying to parody sophistication.  Other than that, I've never heard
"potty-o" until this discussion.
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Child" by Aardman Animation


From MAVINSON5 at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 16 02:11:33 2000
From: MAVINSON5 at AOL.COM (MAVINSON5 at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:11:33 EDT
Subject: was/were
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.221133.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If rhoticism had not taken place, how would the equivalent of were be spelled
in Old English?  waezon instead of wearon?  Also in Mod. Eng., would it be
spelled weze?  I have seen different books spell were:  waezon,  waeson,
waesun, waezun.

Mark


From MAVINSON5 at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 16 02:57:19 2000
From: MAVINSON5 at AOL.COM (MAVINSON5 at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:57:19 EDT
Subject: taken/takened/dranked/drankened
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.225719.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone know of a good article/book on the nonstandard use of the past
participle for the preterit?

Mark


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Jun 16 03:18:24 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:18:24 -0400
Subject: Fred Cassidy
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUN.2000.231824.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I first met him about 1967, when he spoke at LSU (I was teaching at the
"other," the "predminantly" university in Baton Rouge). That was the same
year that I met Roger Shuy and also, I think, Wm. Stewart. If it had not
been for them, I would not have gone into Lx.

Later, I visited his shop in Madison - fascinating.

He was scholar, friend, gentle man. I recall a visit he paid to us here in
Knoxville. The second night he was here, several of us went to dinner at
the Hyatt Regency. As we ordered, Fred asked to buy a bottle of wine for
the table. Then he confessed that he had not had dinner the night before.
He had been rerouted (through Memphis, as I recall) and had gotten to
Knoxville so late that he had foregone dinner. Of course, he did not tell
us that the night before.

I wanted to interview for DARE, but my entry into the game was a bit too
late.

Bethany


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Fri Jun 16 06:37:06 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 01:37:06 -0500
Subject: Patio had no /ae/ way back when!
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.013706.0500.>

> Peter said:
> > I'm with Larry. "Potty-o" for patio sounds raw-ther pretentious to me (b.
> > 1943, native speaker of northern Illinois-ese).>
>
> Larry said:
> > > I (b. 1945) can't recall ever hearing anything OTHER than /ae/ for the
> > > stressed vowel in "patio" in New York, California, or Wisconsin.  And I'm

Natalie said:

> It appears that there's a consensus among those of us of A Certain Age.
> I (b. 1943, native speaker of Mississippi) would have assumed that
> anybody saying potty-o was making a joke.

I guess Peggy and I are of Some Uncertain Age.  (Hoobert Heaver was
still President when we were born. I'm from 1931, Peggy from 1932.) Our
basic tendencies in pronunciation come out of strong roots in the
Chicago metropolitan area.  All other things being equal, we tend toward
what Bloomfield called "SAM": Standard Average Midwestern.

Both of us wince when we hear /ae/ in "patio". It just plain sounds
wrong.  In our English, "patio" is a 3-syllable word, and for us the
stressed vowel is the same as the one in "cot" and "hot".  Pretentious?
Nuts -- that was the way we thought everybody learned to pronounce it
back in the 30s.

The way we say "patio" in English is quite different from our
pronunciation of "patio" when we're speaking Spanish.  The variety of
Spanish we find most comfortable is the regional version characteristic
of southeastern Mexico and Guatemala.  In that area, "patio" has two
syllables in ordinary speech, and the final vowel has no offglide.

Peter, maybe it's a good thing you gave your birth year when you said
you're a native speaker of northern Illinois-ese. You were a WW II baby;
Depression babies from the same area grew up speaking a dialect with
major differences from the one you learned a decade later.

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!

P.S.:  Mind you, neither of us can claim to be uncontaminated speakers
of northern Illinois-ese despite having generations of ancestors from
here. The easiest way to demonstrate that is by reference to a list of
dialect markers that Henry Lee Smith had people read aloud on his old
radio show, "Where Are You From?"  Usually, Haxie could come within 50
miles of where someone was raised in
the U.S. after hearing those words pronounced. Most of the time, he
would come a lot closer than that, even pointing to the right
neighborhoods in many cities. In the mid-1950s, his show (and its brief
appearance on TV) was a fading memory, but he still carried a card with
the list in his wallet.

Neither of us could be located definitively by the Haxie's list.  He
said the best he could do with my speech was to put me somewhere between
Ohio and Kansas on the East-West dimension, and somewhere between
mid-Wisconsin and central (or even southern) Missouri going from north
to south.

FWIW, here are some of the features in our speech that were
problematic.  We both regularly distinguish "cot" from "caught", as
might be expected. But Peggy's "on" rhymes with the first syllable of
"awning". My "on" rhymes with the name of our son John. I alternate
between /s/ and /z/ in "greasy"; Peggy usually doesn't.  When we drink
root beer, my "root" rhymes with "boot", but Peggy's "root" rhymes with
"foot". When we talk about what's at the lower end of a plant, however,
"root" rhymes with "foot" for both of us.  In parallel with my "root",
"roof", for both of us, sometimes rhymes with "goof" and sometimes
rhymes with -- hmm.  Funny, I can't think of a rhyme for our alternate
pronunciation! I guess that's a good place to stop.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Fri Jun 16 09:11:16 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 02:11:16 -0700
Subject: Patio : The world from South Texas
In-Reply-To: <200006160400.VAA20701@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.021116.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The word _patio_ is of course from Spanish, and in typical Mediterranean
architecture, designates an open space enclosed _within_ the house. Since
American houses are not constructed this way, typically a cement platform
or apron _behind_ the house has come to have this designation.
        Very informally, I would guess that in most of the area from San
Antonio southward in Texas, _patio_ is pronounced only with /a/. I grew up
with that as the only pronunciation, and was quite startled when I went to
California in 1954 and discovered that this newly-popular aspect of
American architecture was pronounced with /ae/. My intuitive reaction was
and is that the pronunciation with /ae/ sounds offensive, like so many
other distortions of Spanish borrowings prevalent in California (as
/piydrow/ for _Pedro_ in _San Pedro_). Developers probably spread the
American-adapted architectural form from there, along with the Anglicized
pronunciation. Unlike my good friend Don, I can't bring myself to use the
/ae/ even around others who are using it.
        I'm a /deyt@/ user myself, but my mother told me this came up on
"Who Wants to Be a Millionnaire" tonight, and the "correct" answer was
given as /deyt@/, whereas she said she uses /daet@/, much to my surprise.
There's a local software company here in Tucson which calls itself Beta
Data. I've heard the /ae/ so rarely that it must be a declining minority
usage (in the US, not Britain).

        Rudy


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Fri Jun 16 10:42:55 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 06:42:55 -0400
Subject: Accents in Am. English
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.064255.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph McCollum <prez234 at JUNO.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 15, 2000 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: Accents in Am. English


>So, would I be off the mark in saying that "Day-ta" is singular but
>"Dat-ta" is plural?
>We have an in-house editor who insists that data is always plural.  I've
>always liked the expression:  "If you torture the data enough, it will
>confess to anything."  (somehow "they will confess" doesn't carry quite
>the same effect).  Then again, maybe it's like "Ham and eggs is my
>favorite breakfast."

I was taught that the singular is datum (I use a short a), plural data, and
I use a short a almost exclusively when it's alone and a long a in at least
one compound, database.

bkd


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Fri Jun 16 11:01:29 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 07:01:29 -0400
Subject: Status
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.070129.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Richardson <prichard at LINFIELD.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 15, 2000 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: Status


>I'm with Larry. "Potty-o" for patio sounds raw-ther pretentious to me (b.
>1943, native speaker of northern Illinois-ese).>
>
>> I (b. 1945) can't recall ever hearing anything OTHER than /ae/ for the
>> stressed vowel in "patio" in New York, California, or Wisconsin.  And I'm
>> sure I would have registered someone saying what would have been
processed
>> as "potty-o", with the a-as-in-"father".  Could there in fact have been
>> some modicum of taboo avoidance involved in the posited mid-century
shift?


I'm saying "potty-o" to myself, and all I can think of is Mr. Howell and
Luvvy on Gilligan's Island...

bkd


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Jun 16 11:44:54 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 07:44:54 -0400
Subject: ADS t-shirts
In-Reply-To: <200006152041.QAA31994@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.074454.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

A few old shirts are left (a very few Grandgents, a few Pounds; specify
which you want in your order). XL only (your size) left. Send $20.00
(shipping and handling included) to

Lori Dowdy
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Wells 614 A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027

and one will wing your way (if they are not all gone).

Our plan is to feature Lorenzo Dow Turner this next year, but you can bet
that with Fred's passing he will come onto our list.

Of course, if you come to ADS meetings these pieces of sartorial elegance
are only $15.00.

dInIs


>   I need something to wear.  Is anyone selling those ADS t-shirts?  Can
>we have a Fred Cassidy ADS t-shirt made up?
>   We can copy the obituaries, sign a petition, and write to the U.S.
>Postal Service for a Fred Cassidy postage stamp.  There might be a
>ten-year waiting period, though.


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Fri Jun 16 14:34:10 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:34:10 +0100
Subject: Data
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPX.4.21.0006160144460.24648-100000@pavo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.153410.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>         I'm a /deyt@/ user myself, but my mother told me this came up on
>"Who Wants to Be a Millionnaire" tonight, and the "correct" answer was
>given as /deyt@/, whereas she said she uses /daet@/, much to my surprise.

Being a pedant, I use /daet@/ because this is what I was told it is in Latin.

If there is variation in the word, can there be a "correct"
pronunciation, even if one has prescriptivist tendencies?  Or is this
just another problem with "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire"?



>There's a local software company here in Tucson which calls itself Beta
>Data. I've heard the /ae/ so rarely that it must be a declining minority
>usage (in the US, not Britain).

I can't take an informal survey.  Everybody I know has been
influenced (contaminated?) by Star Trek.

--Aaron
--
________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

  "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 16 15:00:04 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:00:04 -0400
Subject: Euro salad sandwiches; Rodizio
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.110004.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from the Harold Washington Library Center in downtown Chicago, Illinois.
   If there are Fred Cassidy T-shirts, there should be a premium to buy one (say $100), with the money going to DARE.
   Although there is a waiting period after the death of a person for U.S. postage stamp issues (Elvis had to wait), it's a good idea to quickly start the process.  I don't know if the U.S. Postal Service will consider a similar thing to what they did with their Breast Cancer stamp (with proceeds going to that cause), but you can always try.

--------------------------------------------------------
EURO SALAD SANDWICHES

   In the PITTSBURGH FOOD GUIDE, Zorba's menu lists "NEW Euro Salad...6.03."
   At Treat Street at the airport, I noticed "Euro Sandwiches."  They came in tuna salad, chicken salad, and egg salad.  They are "salad mix with lettuce and tomato on whole wheat bread."
   I didn't notice "Euro Sandwiches" in New York City, nor in Europe.  I haven't checked Nexis.
   The Euro has taken a beating against the dollar, but still...

--------------------------------------------------------
RODIZIO

  On page 3 of the PITTSBURGH FOOD GUIDE is an article, "The Green Forest: Pittsburgh Embraces Brazilian Style."  An advertisement for the Green Forest Brazilian Restaurant and Lounge (Brazilian Churrascaria) is conveniently on the same page.
  The article mentions "rodizio" service.  The ad states: "You will enjoy our traditional Rodizio, a Carrousel of all you can eat mouth watering meats to suit the taste of just about everyone, prepared and barbecued just the way we do in our native country, Brazil."
  I haven't yet checked OED, Barnhart, Nexis to see if it's entered into English.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Jun 16 15:12:34 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:12:34 -0400
Subject: Data
In-Reply-To: <a04320407b56fea128fff@[129.215.108.77]>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.111234.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Aaron,

Although I'm not a big fan of pop culture influences on the really
important stuff of language, individual shows may have been the death (or
awakening) knell for the rendition of some lexical items. I don't doubt the
Mr. Data influence of Star Trek on "data," and us older folks will surely
remember that our "Your-Anus" joke days (for the planet) werre over after
Carl Sagan (on "Cosmos") taught us to say "Urinous," and by then we were
too old to make pee-pee jokes.

dInIs


>>
>>         I'm a /deyt@/ user myself, but my mother told me this came up on
>>"Who Wants to Be a Millionnaire" tonight, and the "correct" answer was
>>given as /deyt@/, whereas she said she uses /daet@/, much to my surprise.
>
>Being a pedant, I use /daet@/ because this is what I was told it is in Latin.
>
>If there is variation in the word, can there be a "correct"
>pronunciation, even if one has prescriptivist tendencies?  Or is this
>just another problem with "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire"?
>
>
>
>>There's a local software company here in Tucson which calls itself Beta
>>Data. I've heard the /ae/ so rarely that it must be a declining minority
>>usage (in the US, not Britain).
>
>I can't take an informal survey.  Everybody I know has been
>influenced (contaminated?) by Star Trek.
>
>--Aaron
>--
>________________________________________________________________________
>Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
>http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
>aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics
>
>  "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
>        --Death


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From vneufeldt at M-W.COM  Fri Jun 16 15:51:48 2000
From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:51:48 -0400
Subject: Data
In-Reply-To: <a04320407b56fea128fff@[129.215.108.77]>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.115148.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I believe that the speech community as a whole (i.e. not linguists, etc.)
can accept the existence of more than one "correct" pronunciation more
readily than more than one "correct" spelling.  If two pronunciations for
'data', for instance, are recognized in mainstream general dictionaries,
people will accept them both, even while preferring to stick with the one
that is more common within the group with which they are or wish to be
identified.  This is especially true if the difference is easily
describable, e.g. as geographical or generational.

Victoria
Merriam-Webster, Inc. P.O. Box 281
Springfield, MA 01102
Tel: 413-734-3134  ext 124
Fax: 413-827-7262


On June 16, 2000, Aaron E. Drews wrote:

> Being a pedant, I use /daet@/ because this is what I was told it
> is in Latin.
>
> If there is variation in the word, can there be a "correct"
> pronunciation, even if one has prescriptivist tendencies?  Or is this
> just another problem with "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire"?


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 16 16:21:55 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:21:55 -0400
Subject: Data
In-Reply-To: <000201bfd7aa$c7f99ce0$282b62ce@vneufeldt.m-w.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.122155.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Besides /daet@/ and /deyt@/, there's the less frequent /daht@/ (rhyming
with "lotta", "what a", or "terracotta"), which my wife, a non-Trekkie and
non-techie, uses.  I imagine that it may actually be closer to the original
Latin than /daeta/ is, although that's not why she uses it.

larry


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Jun 16 16:22:22 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:22:22 -0400
Subject: Data
In-Reply-To: <v04011700b57003a04aee@[130.132.245.229]>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.122222.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry,

I was bout to point out that my Latin would produce "data" (rhymes with
"crocka"), but I figgered my Hillbilly Latin might not be trusted. Now
we've got your word on it.

dInIs

>Besides /daet@/ and /deyt@/, there's the less frequent /daht@/ (rhyming
>with "lotta", "what a", or "terracotta"), which my wife, a non-Trekkie and
>non-techie, uses.  I imagine that it may actually be closer to the original
>Latin than /daeta/ is, although that's not why she uses it.
>
>larry


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 16 16:22:56 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:22:56 EDT
Subject: Barry Popik t-shirts
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.122256.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think what we need is a Barry tee-shirt with a picture of a Big Apple and
the slogan "Windy City." (Not that I think Barry is overly loquacious.)


In a message dated 6/15/2000 3:41:57 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

<<    I need something to wear.  Is anyone selling those ADS t-shirts?  Can
we have a Fred Cassidy ADS t-shirt made up?
   We can copy the obituaries, sign a petition, and write to the U.S. Postal
Service for a Fred Cassidy postage stamp.  There might be a ten-year waiting
period, though. >>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 16 16:29:28 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:29:28 -0400
Subject: Gyros (1968)
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.122928.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From THE WFMT GUIDE (CHICAGO GUIDE in 1971, CHICAGO from 1975), December 1968, pg. 40, col. 2:

THE PARTHENON--314 S. Halsted.  Greek.  A good deal of seafood (including squid and octopus), over a dozen lamb dishes including gyros: spit-roasted slices of beef and lamb with onion and parsley.  The usual Greek wines and liquors plus beer by glass and pitcher.  Large room with efficient service.  Greek music on records.  Daily 11-2 am. Child. 726-2407.

   OK, back to work on project two...


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Fri Jun 16 16:47:39 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:47:39 -0400
Subject: Gyros (1968)
In-Reply-To: <200006161629.MAA39590@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.124739.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    From THE WFMT GUIDE (CHICAGO GUIDE in 1971, CHICAGO from 1975), December 1968, pg. 40, col. 2:
>
> THE PARTHENON--314 S. Halsted.  Greek.

Kostas Kazazis of the linguistics department at U of C always said that if
you were in Chicago and wanted good Greek food to go to a Turkish
restaurant. :) I've eaten in Greektown exactly twice, and I'm convinced
it's a tourist trap, because one meal was inedible and the other one was
so-so.

Of course, this doesn't make citations about them any less relevant, just
thought I'd share in case you got hungry.

I miss Chicago gyros where they cut the lamb in strips off a spit. Here in
Boston, the only gyros I've had, they take  a package of frozen precut
strips out of the freezer and throw them on the grill; they are to real
gyros what Pringles are to potato chips.


--- Steve K.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Jun 16 16:49:03 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:49:03 -0700
Subject: Patio : The world from South Texas
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.094903.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>
>         Very informally, I would guess that in most of the area from San
> Antonio southward in Texas, _patio_ is pronounced only with /a/. I grew up
> with that as the only pronunciation, and was quite startled when I went to
> California in 1954 and discovered that this newly-popular aspect of
> American architecture was pronounced with /ae/. My intuitive reaction was
> and is that the pronunciation with /ae/ sounds offensive, like so many
> other distortions of Spanish borrowings prevalent in California (as
> /piydrow/ for _Pedro_ in _San Pedro_). Developers probably spread the
> American-adapted architectural form from there, along with the Anglicized
> pronunciation. Unlike my good friend Don, I can't bring myself to use the
> /ae/ even around others who are using it.

You can leave Houston out of that equation, as least the southwest sector.
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Child" by Aardman Animation


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Jun 16 17:02:14 2000
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:02:14 -0700
Subject: Patio had no /ae/ way back when!
In-Reply-To: <3949CB12.575943A1@corn.cso.niu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.100214.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mike said:>
> Peter, maybe it's a good thing you gave your birth year when you said
> you're a native speaker of northern Illinois-ese. You were a WW II baby;
> Depression babies from the same area grew up speaking a dialect with
> major differences from the one you learned a decade later.

Comment much appreciated, Mike. It's essential, of course, to attach a
generation to these assertions of "nativeness." The disappearance of the
aspirated bilabial in "which" (scientific generation label: young
whippersnapper) is persuasive, as are many other features remarked on
these very screens over the past few months. I certainly recognize the
features you remark as native northern Illinois-ese, but my generation
waded in with its own version, as do generations everywhere. When we
assert certain dialect characteristics in the classroom, the age of the
speaker can't be disregarded.

I like your root/root distinction: the beer vs. the plant part; I'd
forgotten that one.

> between /s/ and /z/ in "greasy"; Peggy usually doesn't.  When we drink
> root beer, my "root" rhymes with "boot", but Peggy's "root" rhymes with
> "foot". When we talk about what's at the lower end of a plant, however,
> "root" rhymes with "foot" for both of us.  In parallel with my "root",
> "roof", for both of us, sometimes rhymes with "goof" and sometimes
> rhymes with -- hmm.  Funny, I can't think of a rhyme for our alternate
> pronunciation! I guess that's a good place to stop.
Hoof, maybe? Then we get into its plural, and the roofs/rooves
problem. Ah, summer...

Peter>


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Jun 16 17:18:45 2000
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:18:45 -0700
Subject: Data
In-Reply-To: <l03130302b5700473dd04@[35.9.12.82]>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.101845.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry and dInIs and Larry's wife and all the rest are on the
money. Data appears to be the neuter plural of the past participle of
_dare_ 'to give'--meaning 'things given' or, as we used to milk it for all
it was worth back in high-school Latin, 'having-been-given things'. The
singular was -datum- (rhymes with "got 'em"), but no one cared to talk
about that.  On the other hand, U.S. and sentence geography could change
that pronunciation radically. Did anyone at Boston Latin School say
"dater" with hiatus-r, as in "These dater are screwy"?

Peter

On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> Larry,
>
> I was bout to point out that my Latin would produce "data" (rhymes with
> "crocka"), but I figgered my Hillbilly Latin might not be trusted. Now
> we've got your word on it.
>
> dInIs
>
> >Besides /daet@/ and /deyt@/, there's the less frequent /daht@/ (rhyming
> >with "lotta", "what a", or "terracotta"), which my wife, a non-Trekkie and
> >non-techie, uses.  I imagine that it may actually be closer to the original
> >Latin than /daeta/ is, although that's not why she uses it.
> >
> >larry
>
>
> Dennis R. Preston
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
> preston at pilot.msu.edu
> Office: (517)353-0740
> Fax: (517)432-2736
>


From gibbens at EROLS.COM  Fri Jun 16 17:46:47 2000
From: gibbens at EROLS.COM (Elizabeth Gibbens)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:46:47 -0400
Subject: Barry Popik t-shirts
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.134647.0400.GIBBENS@EROLS.COM>

Here, Here! I'm in line to buy one.

Elizabeth


----- Original Message -----
From: <RonButters at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 12:22 PM
Subject: Barry Popik t-shirts


> I think what we need is a Barry tee-shirt with a picture of a Big Apple
and
> the slogan "Windy City." (Not that I think Barry is overly loquacious.)
>
>
> In a message dated 6/15/2000 3:41:57 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:
>
> <<    I need something to wear.  Is anyone selling those ADS t-shirts?
Can
> we have a Fred Cassidy ADS t-shirt made up?
>    We can copy the obituaries, sign a petition, and write to the U.S.
Postal
> Service for a Fred Cassidy postage stamp.  There might be a ten-year
waiting
> period, though. >>


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jun 16 17:59:52 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:59:52 -0700
Subject: Patio : The world from South Texas
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.105952.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

first, my own linguistic history re PATIO: born 1940, raised in
eastern pennsylvania, heard and used only [ae] in the word, except
from one family who used [a], and were widely mocked for their
pretentiousness in this (and some other linguistic matters).

now, there are several countervailing tendencies here.  on the one
hand, in the early stages of borrowing, when the use of a word is
associated with its language of origin, there's a tendency to preserve
as much of the phonetics of the original as possible.  even later,
some speakers will want to preserve this pronunciation, on the grounds
that it's the "original", hence the "correct", one.

on the other hand, once the borrowing becomes felt to be merely just
another word in the borrowing language, there's a tendency to nativize
it fully; if english is the borrowing language, nativizing often
includes using the default spelling-to-sound relationships.  in
addition, some speakers will want to avoid the non-nativized
pronunciation, on the grounds that it's "foreign"; this tendency is
especially strong for speakers who want to dissociate themselves from
the culture of origin (many anglos in nevada have invariable [ae] in
their state's name, specifically because [a] would sound "mexican"),
or to mark solidarity with their own culture (the english are famous
for reproducing french loan words inaccurately; actually sounding
french would be, well, un-english), or to protect themselves from
accusations of pretentiousness (i assume that the latinate [a]
pronunciation for DATA has failed to spread, while the nativized [ae]
and [e] compete with one another, for just this reason).

the result is often variation.  not always: as far as i know, english
speakers invariably pronounce SAN and SANTA, in place names, with
nativized [ae], never with the spanish original [a].  but sometimes.

different speakers will use different variants; they'll use the one
they first heard, from people they identify with, or they'll shift
completely to another variant, for one or another of the reasons
above.  sometimes there's variation within individuals; i've heard
young coloradans shift back and forth, in a single conversation,
between [a] and [ae] pronunciations of their state's name.  as i do
between [i] and [E] versions of ECONOMICS.  such shifts might be
triggered by the choices of other participants in a conversation
(which a speaker might accommodate to, or resist), by the vowels in
other words in the context of the word COLORADO, by subtle shifts in
the speaker's sociocultural identifications, by changes in the topic,
or of course by sunspots.

i'd imagine most of the folks on this mailing list know all this
already, but nobody actually said it, so i thought it might be
useful for me to make it explicit.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Jun 16 18:12:39 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:12:39 -0400
Subject: Barry Popik t-shirts
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.141239.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The policy of the committee was that in order to be t-shirted one had
to be dead.

Regards,
David (the other member of the t-shirt committee)


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Jun 16 18:17:22 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:17:22 -0400
Subject: Data
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000616101016.16412G-100000@calvin.linfield. edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.141722.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Recall that in "American Tongues" a computerese-talking guy (from NY?
Boston?) warns about erasing "the dater on the plater"--with linking
/r/.  (But what the heck is a plater?)

At 10:18 AM 6/16/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Larry and dInIs and Larry's wife and all the rest are on the
>money. Data appears to be the neuter plural of the past participle of
>_dare_ 'to give'--meaning 'things given' or, as we used to milk it for all
>it was worth back in high-school Latin, 'having-been-given things'. The
>singular was -datum- (rhymes with "got 'em"), but no one cared to talk
>about that.  On the other hand, U.S. and sentence geography could change
>that pronunciation radically. Did anyone at Boston Latin School say
>"dater" with hiatus-r, as in "These dater are screwy"?
>
>Peter
>
>On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
> > Larry,
> >
> > I was bout to point out that my Latin would produce "data" (rhymes with
> > "crocka"), but I figgered my Hillbilly Latin might not be trusted. Now
> > we've got your word on it.
> >
> > dInIs
> >
> > >Besides /daet@/ and /deyt@/, there's the less frequent /daht@/ (rhyming
> > >with "lotta", "what a", or "terracotta"), which my wife, a non-Trekkie and
> > >non-techie, uses.  I imagine that it may actually be closer to the
> original
> > >Latin than /daeta/ is, although that's not why she uses it.
> > >
> > >larry
> >
> >
> > Dennis R. Preston
> > Department of Linguistics and Languages
> > Michigan State University
> > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
> > preston at pilot.msu.edu
> > Office: (517)353-0740
> > Fax: (517)432-2736
> >


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Jun 16 18:20:17 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:20:17 -0400
Subject: forte (was: Re: Accents in Am. English)
In-Reply-To: <71.40a3465.267987d5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.142017.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 09:13 PM 6/14/00 -0400, you wrote:
>I'd recommend using the accent marks in words like cafe, protege, soufle, and
>fiance where it indicates that the final 'e' is to be pronounced as in French
>(IPA /e/), and it otherwise looks like a silent e.  But in cases  like the
>first 'e' of elite where nearly everyone in the USA uses epsilon, or schwa
>there's no point in using the accent mark (I would have said absolutely
>everyone, but two days ago I heard a colleague pronouncing it /'e lit/-- it
>took me a minute or two to figure out what he meant).  Similarly 'resume'
>needs an accent on the final 'e', but none on the first 'e' because the first
>is epsilon, the second /e/ for nearly everyone-- again I have encountered the
>rare pronunciation of the first vowel as /e/-- but it sounds bizarre.
>Curriculum vitae, by the way should be pronounced to rhyme with 'mighty' if
>the normal rules of anglicization of Latin were to be followed, but I think
>most people use the 'restored Latin' pronunciation /'vi tei/.   But no one
>says /ku rIk u lum/... consistency is not our forte (which you almost have to
>pronounce /for te/ or everyone will THINK you're  ignorant.
>
>Dale Coye
>The College of NJ

Quite right.  I said /fort/ once and was "corrected" most
condescendingly.  So now I never use the word.


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 16 19:33:01 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:33:01 -0400
Subject: Social Climbers (Philadelphia, 1885) (continued)
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.153301.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   About a year ago, William Safire stated in his column that his Syracuse University professor had coined the term "social climber."
   I instantly found an earlier hit on JSTOR, and Fred Shapiro found an even earlier citation and posted it here.  (The New York Times "On Language" column was never corrected.)  I haven't checked both MOA databases.
   A really nice article turned up just now in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, 6 September 1885, pg. 14, col. 5:

   _SWELLS AND CLIMBERS._
_A Disquisition on Certain Elements Found in Philadelphia Society._
_The Long and Arduous Struggle of the Parvenu Rich to Secure Social Position._
(...)
   _THE "CLIMBERS."
   Way beyond these is a drove of rich people who haven't had wealth long enough to make themselves felt, but who, nevertheless, are burning with a desire to get into "society"--to mingle with a set, who, when you know them are, notwithstanding all their pretensions, as commonplace as beeswax.  These people are coolly denominated by the swells as the "climbers"; that is to say, people whose aim in life is to mount the social ladder.

   Back to work...


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Fri Jun 16 19:55:46 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:55:46 +0100
Subject: "on Language"
In-Reply-To: <200006161932.PAA08784@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.205546.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>    About a year ago, William Safire stated in his column that his
>Syracuse University professor had coined the term "social climber."
>    I instantly found an earlier hit on JSTOR, and Fred Shapiro found
>an even earlier citation and posted it here.  (The New York Times
>"On Language" column was never corrected.)


What day of the week is On Language printed.  I no longer get the
print version of the IHT and I don't know if I can read the feature
columns on-line, but it would help if I knew which day of the week's
archive to sift through (I vaguely remember that it's the same in the
IHT and the NYT).

Thanks!

Aaron
--
________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

  "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death


From funex79 at SLONET.ORG  Fri Jun 16 20:01:06 2000
From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:01:06 -0700
Subject: "on Language"
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.130106.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

safire's in the sunday new york time magazine section which is on the web.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron E. Drews" <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 12:55 PM
Subject: "on Language"


> >    About a year ago, William Safire stated in his column that his
> >Syracuse University professor had coined the term "social climber."
> >    I instantly found an earlier hit on JSTOR, and Fred Shapiro found
> >an even earlier citation and posted it here.  (The New York Times
> >"On Language" column was never corrected.)
>
>
> What day of the week is On Language printed.  I no longer get the
> print version of the IHT and I don't know if I can read the feature
> columns on-line, but it would help if I knew which day of the week's
> archive to sift through (I vaguely remember that it's the same in the
> IHT and the NYT).
>
> Thanks!
>
> Aaron
> --
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
> http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
> aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics
>
>   "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
>         --Death
>


From paulfrank at WANADOO.FR  Fri Jun 16 20:42:03 2000
From: paulfrank at WANADOO.FR (Paul Frank)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:42:03 +0200
Subject: "on Language"
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.224203.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> What day of the week is On Language printed.  I no longer get the
> print version of the IHT and I don't know if I can read the feature
> columns on-line, but it would help if I knew which day of the week's
> archive to sift through (I vaguely remember that it's the same in the
> IHT and the NYT).
> Aaron

In the International Herald Tribune it's on Monday and in the New York Times
it's, I think, on Sunday. I get the paper version of the IHT, but unless I'm
mistaken the online versions of the IHT and the NYT do not carry Safire's
Language column.

Paul
________________________________________
Paul Frank
Business, financial and legal translation
>From German, French, Chinese, Spanish,
Italian, Dutch and Portuguese into English
paulfrank at wanadoo.fr  - 74500 Thollon, France


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Jun 16 20:56:49 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:56:49 -0400
Subject: Barry Popik t-shirts
In-Reply-To: <msg49714.thr-1934359.d8d2f@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.165649.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Barnhart wrote:

>The policy of the committee was that in order to be t-shirted one had
>to be dead.

Once in high school, I read a series of books (well, two at least) called,
chronologically, _Dead Ned_ and _Live and Kicking Ned_ (or words to that
effect).

Perhaps we could have three categories of t-shirts in the future: Dead
t-shirts, live and kicking t-shirts - and maybe a middle category,
over-the-hill t-shirts. (My church has a Dead Choir - singers who sing
only at funeralx).

Did anyone else read those beooks? They involved a miscreant (or assumed
miscreant) who escaped death by hanging. I've forgotten the details about
how he got off the gallows.

Bethany


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Jun 16 21:32:21 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:32:21 -0400
Subject: forte (was: Re: Accents in Am. English)
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000616141906.00bdd330@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.173221.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

>>says /ku rIk u lum/... consistency is not our forte (which you almost have to
>>pronounce /for te/ or everyone will THINK you're  ignorant.
>
>Quite right.  I said /fort/ once and was "corrected" most
>condescendingly.  So now I never use the word.

I ALWAYS say /fort/, but I am careful to say aferwards, "a word that
almost no one pronounces correctly anymore." I don't mind being thought
ignorant, but I sure don't want to miss an opportunity to give a Lx
101 lecture. (I usually get it.) (When I hear /fortay/ I think music.)

Bethany


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Jun 16 21:38:42 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:38:42 -0400
Subject: "on Language"
In-Reply-To: <007b01bfd7d3$667554e0$9f05f9c1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.173842.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Paul Frank wrote:

>In the International Herald Tribune it's on Monday and in the New York Times
>it's, I think, on Sunday. I get the paper version of the IHT, but unless I'm
>mistaken the online versions of the IHT and the NYT do not carry Safire's
>Language column.

The web version of the Sunday NYTimes carries the column. Check the mag.

Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 16 23:17:05 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:17:05 EDT
Subject: Misfit; "Chawing his ear"
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.191705.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MISFIT

   I just received an e-mail that the online OED has corrected about a
thousand "M" entries.
   More--
   From the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, 9 September 1885, pg. 4, col. 5:

   In Newport (R.I.--ed.) slang a misfit wife is one who has found herself so
mismated that she has had to part from her husband.  Newporters no longer
speak of grass widows or divorced persons, but always of misfits.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CHAWING HIS EAR

   "CHAWING HIS EAR" is the caption beneath the illustration in the CHICAGO
TRIBUNE, 6 September 1885, pg. 8, col. 1.  I didn't find the expression in
the online OED.
   The article states:

   ...and in the vernacular of the trade proceeds to "chaw the ear" of his
seat mate.  This "chawing the ear" is not, as one would suppose, an act of
mayhem, though oftentimes it would be better for the victim if it were, but
merely consists in a zealous attempt to make a sale.

   Time for a Chicago pizza.


From feste at KEYSTONENET.COM  Fri Jun 16 23:16:15 2000
From: feste at KEYSTONENET.COM (Pat Pflieger)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:16:15 -0400
Subject: "gay old time" and gender
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUN.2000.191615.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm annotating some 19th-century letters and have come upon an etymology
problem I hope someone can help me solve.

Many of the letter-writers were American teenagers, subscribers to a
magazine which printed their letters.  In 1861, a girl living in Albany,
New York, wrote about what "a gay old time" she and her friends had,
skating on the local pond.  This was immediately challenged by a boy, who
accused her of being a male subscriber writing under a female pseudonym.
(It's a long story.  Trust me.)  His evidence was the phrase "gay old
time":  she had, he pointed out, "[let] fall an expression which no
cultivated and traveled young lady, in fact, no woman at all, would ever
use, but one common in the mouths of boys and young men--'a gay old time.'"

I haven't been able to track the history of the phrase "gay old time", let
alone its gender-specific uses.  I've checked the OED, Mathews' _Dictionary
of Americanisms_, Cassidy's _Dictionary of American English_, & Lighter's
_Dictionary of American Slang_.  I've also run it through Internet search
engines, but you can imagine the results.

Can anyone point me toward a source that might help me discuss the phrase?

Pat Pflieger
feste at keystonenet.com


From paulfrank at WANADOO.FR  Sat Jun 17 06:31:27 2000
From: paulfrank at WANADOO.FR (Paul Frank)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:31:27 +0200
Subject: "on Language"
Message-ID: <SAT.17.JUN.2000.083127.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Paul Frank wrote:
>>In the International Herald Tribune it's on Monday and in the New York
Times
> >it's, I think, on Sunday. I get the paper version of the IHT, but unless
I'm
> >mistaken the online versions of the IHT and the NYT do not carry Safire's
> >Language column.
>
> The web version of the Sunday NYTimes carries the column. Check the mag.
> Bethany

Glad to see I was mistaken. The reason I was mistaken was because I once
looked for Safire's language column in the online version of the New York
Times but not in that of the Sunday New York Times. (Don't you hate it when
people tell you that "the reason...is because" is a solecism?)

Paul
________________________________________
Paul Frank
Business, financial and legal translation
>From German, French, Chinese, Spanish,
Italian, Dutch and Portuguese into English
paulfrank at wanadoo.fr  - 74500 Thollon, France


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 17 13:24:15 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:24:15 -0400
Subject: Social Climbers (Philadelphia, 1885) (continued)
In-Reply-To: <200006161932.PAA08784@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.17.JUN.2000.092415.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't see the term "social climber" anywhere in this passage.  The term
"climber" does not seem really different from the figurative application
of OED sense 1., which is attested in 1833, even arguably in Shakespeare.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 17 14:20:12 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:20:12 EDT
Subject: "gay old time" and gender
Message-ID: <SAT.17.JUN.2000.102012.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fascinating!

If you look closely at Lighter and other slang dictionaries, you will see
that the earliest American slang usages for GAY meant 'impudent'; there is a
short story by Sherwood Anderson called "I'm a Fool"--a first-person story
narrated by a working-class young man--that uses the term in that way.
Although GAY in "gay old time" doesn't mean 'impudent', and though Anderson's
story comes some 60 years after yours, the repeated use of the term by the
vulgar young man suggests to me that this was in itself a rather "low" usage.

Aside from that, I know of no other connection between GAY as used in America
in a phrase such as "gay old time" that would suggest the phrase (or the
word) were considered vulgar. Was Cornielia Otis Skinner the author of OUR
HEARTS WERE YOUNG AND GAY? That is an association with non-working-class
females of the earlier 20th century.

In short, I know of no source that makes such a distinction as you found.
Just brain-storming, I suppose it might be possible to find a 19th century
etiquette book that lists vulgar phrases; I doubt that dictionaries of the
period would be much help. You may just have found some new evidence for the
historical usage of the term GAY--perhaps worth a brief Miscellany piece in
AMERICAN SPEECH or COMMENTES ON ETYMOLOGY. Of course, it is possible that the
young man who challenged the expression had some sort of prescriptivist
idiosuncracyk with respect to the phrase in question.


In a message dated 6/16/2000 6:27:36 PM, feste at KEYSTONENET.COM writes:

<< I'm annotating some 19th-century letters and have come upon an etymology
problem I hope someone can help me solve.

Many of the letter-writers were American teenagers, subscribers to a
magazine which printed their letters.  In 1861, a girl living in Albany,
New York, wrote about what "a gay old time" she and her friends had,
skating on the local pond.  This was immediately challenged by a boy, who
accused her of being a male subscriber writing under a female pseudonym.
(It's a long story.  Trust me.)  His evidence was the phrase "gay old
time":  she had, he pointed out, "[let] fall an expression which no
cultivated and traveled young lady, in fact, no woman at all, would ever
use, but one common in the mouths of boys and young men--'a gay old time.'"

I haven't been able to track the history of the phrase "gay old time", let
alone its gender-specific uses.  I've checked the OED, Mathews' _Dictionary
of Americanisms_, Cassidy's _Dictionary of American English_, & Lighter's
_Dictionary of American Slang_.  I've also run it through Internet search
engines, but you can imagine the results.

Can anyone point me toward a source that might help me discuss the phrase?

Pat Pflieger
feste at keystonenet.com >>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 17 14:44:37 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:44:37 -0400
Subject: Robert McCormick on A&E's Biografy
Message-ID: <SAT.17.JUN.2000.104437.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Colonel Robert McCormick of the Chicago Tribune is on tonight's A&E BIOGRAPHY (Biografy?) at 11 p.m., but check local listings.
   "Muscle hussy" is used in a female bodybuilder story in this weekend's FINANCIAL TIMES.
   I knew that Fred Shapiro would raise that objection to "social climber."  The entire article must be read, along with some Philadelphia history texts.  When the PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER puts its back issues online, I have no doubt that we'll find "social climber" citations for Philadelphia from the 1880s-1890s.  "Climber" was in quotes, very conspicuously placed in a header, and it was used many times in the article.  I think it's a significant citation.
   I've told the Chicago Cubs that I refuse to be traded for Sammy Sosa.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 18 02:44:54 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:44:54 -0400
Subject: Swiss Enchiladas
Message-ID: <SAT.17.JUN.2000.224454.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Chicago--a city I've enjoyed so much, I'm staying an extra day!
   I looked a the Chicago Tribune, Chicago Daily News, Chicago Herald-Examiner, Chicago Evening Post, Chicago Daily Journal, and Chicago American for December 1927.  Perhaps Walter Winchell's column was syndicated and appeared in Chicago in 1927, but I sure didn't find it.  So much for that W.W. "Bloody Mary" column.

--------------------------------------------------------
ROBERT McCORMICK

   Tonight's A&E Biography of the Chicago Tribune's Robert McCormick glossed over much.  Only at the very end did Harry Smith announce that McCormick also owned WGN--and "World's Greatest Newspaper" was never explained!
   The paper itself was hardly mentioned.  You'd never know that Bert L. Taylor's "Line o' Type" was the first "colyumn."  You'd also never know about the Tribune's strange spelling ideas--which actually began with Joseph Medill.

--------------------------------------------------------
MARGHERITA PIZZA

   Jesse Sheidlower wanted "Margherita," and I gave him something off the top of my head.  I looked at the food books in the Chicago Public Library, and this is from PIZZA, ANY WAY YOU SLICE IT (1998), by Charles and Michele Scicolone, pg. 45:

   Records dating to forty years before the queen's tasting indicate that pizza with mozzarella, tomato, and basil was eaten in Naples long before she tried it.  At any rate, Queen Margherita loved Esposito's three pizzas, especially the mozzarella version, so Raffaele named the pizza in her honor.
   Raffaele's pizzeria still exists, though now it is called Pizzeria Brandi.  On the wall is proudly displayed the letter dated June 11, 1889, that he received from the Royal House declaring his pizzas _buonissime_--the best!

--------------------------------------------------------
SWISS ENCHILADAS

  Way back in November 1999, I was in Mexico and wrote about Swiss Enchiladas.  This is from TRYPINGPANS WEST (1969) by Sam Arnold, pg. 9:

   Here is a recipe for an easy-to-make SWISS ENCHILADA.  It's called Swiss because it has dairy products in it.  Many foods in Mexico get the name Swiss becausethey have cheese and milk in them, but the similarity ends there.
Corn tortillas
1 cooked chicken or lobster or shrimp
onion
green chile strips, 5-6
Monterey Jack cheese
longhorn cheese
1/2 sour cream
2 cups miolk or cream
salt
oregano
   Line a large buttered casserole with corn tortillas.  Overlap them so as to cover the casserole completely.  Scatter small pieces of meat from one cooked chicken over thetortillas.  (Lobster or shrimp are also good meats to use and make a fine dish.)  Next scatter a layer of thin-sliced onion over all.  Then add five or six green chile strips cut into small pieces and cover with a half-inch layer of grated Monterey Jack cheese and grated Longhorn cheese.  Add one-half pint of sour cream spread over all, also 2 cups milk or cream.  Sprinkle lightly with salt and oregano.  Cover with another layer of corn tortillas...and if your casserole is large enough, repeat the whole process into a second layer of everything.  Bake is a hot 425-degree oven for about 45 minutes.  Before serving, place a layer of cheese over the top, and let it melt and brown well.  The consistency should be damp with the melted cheese and tortillas, but not sloppy.

   Don't know if the OED wants "Mexican Rice," "Mexican Salad," "Mexican Chocolate," and such other M's.


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Sun Jun 18 06:45:19 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:45:19 -0500
Subject: Swiss Enchiladas and Mexican "x"
Message-ID: <SUN.18.JUN.2000.014519.0500.>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    Don't know if the OED wants "Mexican Rice," "Mexican Salad," "Mexican Chocolate," and such other M's.

I dunno about OED, and I'll eschew comment on "Mexican rice" and
"Mexican salad", but "Mexican Chocolate" deserves at least passing
comment.  (Actually, it could use a whole dissertation -- if and only if
it's accompanied by taste testing.)

National tastes in chocolate produce at least as many variations as the
whole gamut of possibilities that characterizes what locals mean by "rye
bread".

Each U.S. city worth mentioning has its own, remarkably unique,
definitions of the taste, texture, crustiness, color, and presence or
absence of seeds in what would be expected in the epitome of rye bread.
I've had San Francisco sourdough rye bread, with caraway seeds at that,
served in a Market Street sandwich shop's idea of a Reuben sandwich --
and Chicagoans are more dissatisfied with a quintessential New York
corned beef sandwich than Gothamites are with the Windy City's best
corned beef on rye.  Not by much, mind you. (And if the delicatessen
doesn't serve phosphates to go with the sandwich, it isn't authentic
anyway.)

National tastes in chocolate are even more disparate. They lead to
products which are so different that only their ultimate relationship to
the cacao bean unites them.  Mexicans, whose ancestors have been using
chocolate much longer than anyone else on earth, make chocolate candies
that are more distinctive of local cuisine than Mexican tortillas, while
Mexico's variety of hot chocolate puts any other attempt at that
beverage into a hopeless second place before competition even begins.

If you ever get a chance to sample chocolate freshly made in Mexico,
you'll know why "Mexican chocolate" really deserves its own entry in any
dictionary whose editors have taste buds.

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 19 00:43:59 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 20:43:59 EDT
Subject: Swap Spit; New Cockney Rhyming Slang
Message-ID: <SUN.18.JUN.2000.204359.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/7/2000 12:48:01 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

<< And can you guess what _Brad Pitt_ means to a Cockney? >>

What about Leonardo D. Craprio?


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 19 00:47:19 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 20:47:19 EDT
Subject: forte (was: Re: Accents in Am. English)
Message-ID: <SUN.18.JUN.2000.204719.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/16/2000 4:43:10 PM, dumasb at UTK.EDU writes:

<< I ALWAYS say /fort/, but I am careful to say aferwards, "a word that
almost no one pronounces correctly anymore." I don't mind being thought
ignorant, but I sure don't want to miss an opportunity to give a Lx
101 lecture. (I usually get it.) (When I hear /fortay/ I think music.) >>

It is good to hear that linguists now understand that  "correctly pronounced"
is a legitimate category in American society.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 19 05:08:03 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 01:08:03 EDT
Subject: May your children all be acrobats
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUN.2000.010803.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     Sali drove me to the service for Fred Cassidy today.  Donald Lance
recited Tennyson's "Crossing the Bar."  The Algeos were also there--which
reminds me, I owe Glowka some new words.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MEXICAN CHOCOLATE

    I might have earlier citations at home.
    From FRYINGPANS WEST (1969) by Sam Arnold, pg. 36:

    Early visitors to the Southwest found the Mexicans enjoying a thick type
of hot chocolate.  It had both a different consistency and flavor than they
had encountered elsewhere.
    Mexican chocolate _is_ different in that it has both cinnamon and a bit
of nutmeg in it; plus clove and egg for festival occasions such as Christmas
eve.  You can make it very easily (Pg. 37--ed.) yourself and will find the
spices add tremendously to the flavor.
MEXICAN CHOCOLATE
2 squares grated chocolate
1/2 cup boiling water
2 cups milk
3 tablespoons sugar
1 teaspoon cinnamon
1 egg
pinch of salt
pinch of nutmeg
    Cook 2 squares grated chocolate with 1/2 cup boiling water, 2 cups milk,
3 tablespoons sugar, 1 teaspoon vanilla, 1 cup cream, a pinch of salt,
nutmeg, 1 teaspoon cinnamon and an egg.
    Boil the chocolate in water for 5 minutes to bring out its full body and
flavor.  Then add milk, cream, sugar, salt, egg and spices.  Cook in a double
boiler for an hour, beating vigorously at 5-10 minute intervals.
    That's the old-fashioned way.  If you have a blender, simply add hot milk
or cream to sweet chocolate (about two cups of chocolate buds), and egg,
nutmeg and cinnamon and blend for 2 minutes.  I like to add just a pinch of
ground orange peel.  Be sure, however you make it, to beat or blend until
frothy.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BERLINER DOUGHNUTS (continued)

    From LUCHOWS (there's an umlaut here, just like FRESHENS yogurt, to add
to that HAAGEN DAZS discussion) GERMAN COOKBOOK (1952) by Leonard Jan
Mitchell, pg. 190:

FILLED BERLINER PANCAKES OR DOUGHNUTS
PASTNACHT KRAPFEN
1 pink milk
1 cake compressed yeast
4 1/2 to 5 cups flour
1/4 pound butter, melted
1/2 cup sugar
1/2 lemon peel, grated
3 eggs, beaten
Flour
Currant jelly or thick cooked apples
Lard or shortening for deep frying
Extra sugar
    Heat milk to lukewarm.  Soften yeast in 1/4 cup warm milk.  Stir 2 1/2
cups flour smoothly into rest of warm milk.  Mix yeast quickly into this
batter.  Cover lightly with folded towel and let stand 1 hour or longer.
    After sponge has risen well, mix in melted butter, sugar, lemon peel,
eggs, and remaining flour.  Stir well.
    Turn dough out on lightly floured board.  Fold over, then roll lightly to
1/2-inch thickness.  Cut with 3-inch round cooky cutter.  Spread half of the
rounds with 1 heaping teaspoon jelly or cooked apples.  Cover these with
remaining rounds.  Crimp edges firmly together with fingers.  Leave on
floured board.  Cover lightly with folded towel and let rise in warm toom 1/2
hour, or until light and puffy.
    Fry a few Berliners at a time in deep hot fat (360 degrees F.) until
golden brown.  Remove from fat, drain on thick paper toweling.  WHile hot,
roll in sugar.  Makes 1 1/2 to 2 dozen.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MAY YOUR CHILDREN ALL BE ACROBATS

    I just went through my Barry Buchanan papers for VAUDEVILLE looking at
"M."

_May your children all be acrobats_  A colloquialism used by performers when
they are irritated and still retain their sense of humor.  The traditional
vaudeville curse.

_Material reaches too far back_  A phrase which indicates that the patter,
crossfire, or gags used by an act is too antiquated to be good.

_Monday Afternoon Audience_  Formerly the Monday afternoon patrons of
vaudeville houses in New York City were professional people who came to see
the acts for business reasons.  The patrons at these performances were
particularly difficult to please.

_Michael Feeney_  Any theatrical manager who is unrelenting and
unsympathetic; also a stage manager with the same characteristics.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Mon Jun 19 05:29:28 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 22:29:28 -0700
Subject: Mexican chocolate
In-Reply-To: <200006190400.VAA22913@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <SUN.18.JUN.2000.222928.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'll second Mike Salovesh's nomination of Mexican chocolate, though I'm
afraid I'd still put it second behind Hershey's (either hot chocolate or
bar). However, nothing can quite match a cup of hot Mexican chocolate
around midnight on a chilly night in Mexico City with churros (the latter
just becoming known on the American commercial scene) freshly hot from the
fryer. An unforgettable experience.

        Rudy


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 19 14:22:58 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:22:58 -0700
Subject: "gay old time" and gender
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUN.2000.072258.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Pat Pflieger <feste at KEYSTONENET.COM> wrote:
> I'm annotating some 19th-century letters and have
> come upon an etymology
> problem I hope someone can help me solve.
>
> Many of the letter-writers were American teenagers,
> subscribers to a
> magazine which printed their letters.  In 1861, a
> girl living in Albany,
> New York, wrote about what "a gay old time" she and
> her friends had,
> skating on the local pond.  This was immediately
> challenged by a boy, who
> accused her of being a male subscriber writing under
> a female pseudonym.
> (It's a long story.  Trust me.)  His evidence was
> the phrase "gay old
> time":  she had, he pointed out, "[let] fall an
> expression which no
> cultivated and traveled young lady, in fact, no
> woman at all, would ever
> use, but one common in the mouths of boys and young
> men--'a gay old time.'"
>
> I haven't been able to track the history of the
> phrase "gay old time", let
> alone its gender-specific uses.  I've checked the
> OED, Mathews' _Dictionary
> of Americanisms_, Cassidy's _Dictionary of American
> English_, & Lighter's
> _Dictionary of American Slang_.  I've also run it
> through Internet search
> engines, but you can imagine the results.
>
> Can anyone point me toward a source that might help
> me discuss the phrase?
>
> Pat Pflieger
> feste at keystonenet.com

Considering the source, a teen-age boy, I don't know
how much weight should be given to his possibly
quite-heavily prejudiced opinion - prejudiced to his
own ideas or those of his close associates rather than
reflecting broader usage or opinion.

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 19 15:36:11 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:36:11 -0700
Subject: Mexican chocolate
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUN.2000.083611.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Rudolph C Troike <rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU> wrote:
> I'll second Mike Salovesh's nomination of Mexican
> chocolate, though I'm
> afraid I'd still put it second behind Hershey's
> (either hot chocolate or
> bar)...
>
>         Rudy

Hershey's gets the distinctly "american" taste in its
milk chocolate by using sour milk.  This is why most
who have grown up eating non-american chocolate
consider Hersheys milk chocolate to have an inferior
or unpleasant flavor, and at least one reason
"foreign" chocolates taste so different to Americans.



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 19 16:05:36 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 12:05:36 -0400
Subject: Mexican Pizza (continued)
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUN.2000.120536.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   One book I'll have to get my hands on is "Cookbbok from LBJ Country" (Chi Trib, Aug. 30, 1968), THE PEDERNALES COUNTY COOKBOOK by Lillian Fehrenbach.  Mexican dishes include "tamales, chili, and chicken chalupas."  Chimichangas, perhaps?
   "Mexican chocolate" and "Mexican pizza" have each been around over 30 years and are not going away soon, but again, it's the OED's call.
   In a CHICAGO TRIBUNE article, 30 August 1968, pg. 12, section 2, titled "New Dagwood Gets Lesson on Sandwiches," about actor Will Hutchins and the show BLONDIE, is this in column three:

   Following is the family recipe for another of Will's favorites, a tasty and easy make-at-home pizza:
   MEXICAN PIZZA
(Two 10 or 12-inch pizzas)
1 package frozen or refrigerated ready mixed dough for french bread
1 1/2 tablespoons cornmeal
1 can (6 ounces) tomato paste
2 cans (8 ounces each) tomato sauce
1 can (7 ounces) luncheon meat, diced or mashed
1 small onion, grated
1 clove garlic, crushed
1/2 teaspoon each: oregano, chili powder
1 cup (4 ounces) coarsely shredded mozarella cheese
1/2 cup sliced pepperoni
2 tablespoons anchovies
1/4 cup sliced fresh mushrooms
1/4 cup sliced green and ripe pitted olives
   Divide dough in half.  Roll out between two pieces of waxed paper to size of pizza pans, 10 or 12 inches in diameter.  Lightly butter pizza pans and sprinkle with cornmeal.  Place rounds of rolled out dough on each.  Mix tomato paste, tomato sauce, luncheon meat, onion, garlic, oregano, and chili powder.  Divide and spread on rounds of dough.  Cover each with mozarella cheese and cheddar cheese and then add half of remaining ingredients to each (or divide as desired).  Bake on lowest rack of oven at 400 degrees for about 25 minutes.  Cut in wedges and serve hot.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 20 06:39:54 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 02:39:54 -0400
Subject: God's Waiting Room
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.023954.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from New York City, where waiting for a bus from LaGuardia Airport takes longer than a flight from Chicago.

--------------------------------------------------------
GOD'S WAITING ROOM

   A USA TODAY, 19 June 2000, pg. 8B, col. 1, story about nursing homes mentions "Florida, God's waiting room."  I've heard comedians use that (Rita Rudner), but it's not in the RHHDAS.
   Today's USA Today also has an article about NYPD BLUE language (hump; IAB; rat squad; the job; juice; lawyering up; PAA; reaching out; skel), but it's nothing much.

--------------------------------------------------------
MONKEY WRENCH (continued)

   I posted the Scientific American "monkey wrench" 1857 cite here, but I though I had also posted something about Charles Monckey.
   From the CHICAGO EVENING JOURNAL, 21 September 1886, pg. 4, col. 4:

   Charles Monckey, inventor of the Monckey wrench (ignorantly called the monkey wrench), is living in poverty in Brooklyn.  He sold the patent for $2,000, and now millions are made annually out of the invention.

--------------------------------------------------------
MISFITS (continued)

   From the CHICAGO EVENING JOURNAL, 9 September 1885, pg. 2, col. 3:

   From New York divorce court slang a new word has been coined for divorced persons, or married people not living together--namely, "misfits."

--------------------------------------------------------
THE WORLD OWES ME A LIVING

   I always thought that this phrase came out of the Depression.  It certainly was popular in the 1930s.  J. L. Rhys wrote THE WORLD OWES ME A LIVING (1939).
   From the CHICAGO EVENING JOURNAL, 10 October 1885, pg. 2, col. 1:

   The world does not owe anybody "a living" till he has earned it.

   Back to work.


From john.kirk at UNITE.CO.UK  Tue Jun 20 11:32:48 2000
From: john.kirk at UNITE.CO.UK (John Kirk)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:32:48 +0100
Subject: DIALECT2000: Language Links Conference
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.123248.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>



Please find attached details (*.rtf format) of the DIALECT2000:
Language Links Conference onthe Languages of Scotland and Ireland
being held at Queen's University Belfast from 9-16 August 2000.


See also our webpage at
http://www.qub.ac.uk/en/lang/Conferences/Dialect2000.htm
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--
John Kirk
Co-Organiser, Dialect2000: Language Links
School of English
Queen's University Belfast
Email: J.M.Kirk at qub.ac.uk
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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 20 16:42:15 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:42:15 -0400
Subject: "Kidpreneur" in WSJ
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.124215.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I've heard "kidpreneur" before, and I'm still not sold on the term.  Kid entrepreneurs.  Cute, but stupid.
   From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 20 June 2000, pg. B1, col. 2:

_"Kidpreneurs" Program Focuses on Minority Youngsters_
_Ripe Business Opportunity Is Found as Kids Are Urged to Be Entrepreneurs_
   (...)  The collection of youngsters, ranging from age 4 to 18, is part of the Kidpreneurs program, an offshoot of Black Enterprise magazine, which holds an annual conference for black entrepreneurs.  About 120 "kidpreneurs" took part in the kids version of the conference last month, while their parents attended workshops and networking sessions held by the magazine.


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun 20 17:11:57 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:11:57 -0700
Subject: "Kidpreneur" in WSJ
In-Reply-To: <200006201642.MAA09694@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.101157.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

YUCK!!!

I'm sorry--I don't know whether the word or the idea behind it disgusts me
more.  Not only is business trying to remake every part of society in its
own image, now it can't even let our kids have a childhood before
instilling in them the idea that the only acceptable thing to be when you
grow up is an "entrepreneur."  I guess kids are supposed to be born with a
stock option in their mouths, and as soon as they learn to walk, "playing"
will be replaced with "competing."  And as for their parents, hey, who
wants to "visit" when you can "network" instead?

O.k., end of off-topic tirade.

Peter Mc.

--On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 12:42 PM -0400 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    I've heard "kidpreneur" before, and I'm still not sold on the term.
>    Kid entrepreneurs.  Cute, but stupid. From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 20
>    June 2000, pg. B1, col. 2:
>
> _"Kidpreneurs" Program Focuses on Minority Youngsters_
> _Ripe Business Opportunity Is Found as Kids Are Urged to Be Entrepreneurs_
>    (...)  The collection of youngsters, ranging from age 4 to 18, is part
>    of the Kidpreneurs program, an offshoot of Black Enterprise magazine,
>    which holds an annual conference for black entrepreneurs.  About 120
>    "kidpreneurs" took part in the kids version of the conference last
>    month, while their parents attended workshops and networking sessions
>    held by the magazine.



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun 20 17:22:20 2000
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:22:20 -0400
Subject: "Kidpreneur" in WSJ
In-Reply-To: <200006201642.MAA09694@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.132220.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This term has been submitted to the Jargon Watch mailbox several times where
it was swiftly banished to the "Jargon from Hell" folder.

I've received a number of these awful -preneur coinages, such as
"cyberpreneur" and (hold onto your stomach contents) "tantrapreneur"
(someone who runs a business with his/her "significant other" -- tantra as
in tantric sex). Make it stop.


> From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:42:15 -0400
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: "Kidpreneur" in WSJ
>
> I've heard "kidpreneur" before, and I'm still not sold on the term.  Kid
> entrepreneurs.  Cute, but stupid.
> From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 20 June 2000, pg. B1, col. 2:
>
> _"Kidpreneurs" Program Focuses on Minority Youngsters_
> _Ripe Business Opportunity Is Found as Kids Are Urged to Be Entrepreneurs_
> (...)  The collection of youngsters, ranging from age 4 to 18, is part of the
> Kidpreneurs program, an offshoot of Black Enterprise magazine, which holds an
> annual conference for black entrepreneurs.  About 120 "kidpreneurs" took part
> in the kids version of the conference last month, while their parents attended
> workshops and networking sessions held by the magazine.
>


From nmanson at BRIGHT.NET  Tue Jun 20 17:08:45 2000
From: nmanson at BRIGHT.NET (Nathan Manson)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:08:45 -0400
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBED
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.130845.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

UNSUBSCRIBED
jt268096 at oak.cats.ohiou.edu


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun 20 17:38:14 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:38:14 -0700
Subject: "Kidpreneur" in WSJ
In-Reply-To: <B575208C.9C7%garethb2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.103814.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hey, this is growing on me after all.  How about "tantrumpreneur"--someone
who starts a business teaching primal scream therapy, perhaps?  This should
be perfect for one of those 4-year-old kidpreneurs.  Check it out at
"www.tantrum.com"!

--On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 1:22 PM -0400 Gareth Branwyn
<garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:

> I've received a number of these awful -preneur coinages, such as
> "cyberpreneur" and (hold onto your stomach contents) "tantrapreneur"
> (someone who runs a business with his/her "significant other" -- tantra as
> in tantric sex). Make it stop.



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Tue Jun 20 17:42:36 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:42:36 -0400
Subject: "Kidpreneur" in WSJ
In-Reply-To: <543028.3170486294@dhcp-218-202-118.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.134236.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> Hey, this is growing on me after all.  How about "tantrumpreneur"--someone
> who starts a business teaching primal scream therapy, perhaps?  This should
> be perfect for one of those 4-year-old kidpreneurs.  Check it out at
> "www.tantrum.com"!

There is, of course, a tantrum.com. It appears to be a site for gamers.

I read somewhere that something like 98% of single-word items (I don't
from what dictionary) have been registered as .coms already.

-- Steve K


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 20 19:56:49 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:56:49 -0400
Subject: Misfit; "Chawing his ear"
In-Reply-To: <c0.51465fc.267c0f71@aol.com> from "Bapopik@AOL.COM" at Jun 16,
 2000 07:17:05 PM
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.155649.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>    "CHAWING HIS EAR" is the caption beneath the illustration in the CHICAGO
> TRIBUNE, 6 September 1885, pg. 8, col. 1.  I didn't find the expression in
> the online OED.

No, but it's a big antedating of HDAS (1919-).

Jesse Sheidlower


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 20 20:49:49 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:49:49 -0400
Subject: "Kidpreneur" and its ilk
In-Reply-To: <543028.3170486294@dhcp-218-202-118.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.164949.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about someone who markets a service delivering main courses in the
States or pre-main courses in France?  That would, of course, be an
entreepreneur.

larry


At 10:38 AM -0700 6/20/00, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>Hey, this is growing on me after all.  How about "tantrumpreneur"--someone
>who starts a business teaching primal scream therapy, perhaps?  This should
>be perfect for one of those 4-year-old kidpreneurs.  Check it out at
>"www.tantrum.com"!
>
>--On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 1:22 PM -0400 Gareth Branwyn
><garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
>
>> I've received a number of these awful -preneur coinages, such as
>> "cyberpreneur" and (hold onto your stomach contents) "tantrapreneur"
>> (someone who runs a business with his/her "significant other" -- tantra as
>> in tantric sex). Make it stop.
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 20 20:49:26 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:49:26 -0400
Subject: "Kidpreneur" and its ilk
In-Reply-To: <v04011702b57588b10e26@[130.132.231.167]> from "Laurence Horn" at
 Jun 20, 2000 04:49:49 PM
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.164926.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry Horn wrote:
>
> How about someone who markets a service delivering main courses in the
> States or pre-main courses in France?  That would, of course, be an
> entreepreneur.

As contrasted with such a person who markets this service
online, who would be an eentreepreneur.

Jesse Sheidlower


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 20 20:51:38 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:51:38 EDT
Subject: GuideStar report on ADS
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.165138.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Did you know that there's a website with detailed information on just about
all of the nation's 620,000 nonprofit organizations? Sponsored by a bunch of
foundations, so you can among other things consider whether a particular
charity deserves your support.

Nonprofits have the opportunity to post information about their program and
goals, and I just did that for ADS. If you're curious, go to
www.guidestar.org
and just type in "American Dialect Society."

If you see anything that needs correction, let me know. - Allan Metcalf


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Tue Jun 20 21:07:08 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:07:08 -0500
Subject: outdated metaphors
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.160708.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Anyone interested in joining me to develop a publishable list of out-dated
metaphors,  especially those caused by the obsolescence of things
mechanical, e.g., "she could suck the knob off a gearshift lever."?

Bob


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Tue Jun 20 21:46:50 2000
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:46:50 -0400
Subject: "Kidpreneur" and its ilk
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.174650.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Or someone who sells animal doo-doo; a manurepreneur.

Bob

jester at PANIX.COM wrote:
>
> Larry Horn wrote:
> >
> > How about someone who markets a service delivering main courses in the
> > States or pre-main courses in France?  That would, of course, be an
> > entreepreneur.
>
> As contrasted with such a person who markets this service
> online, who would be an eentreepreneur.
>
> Jesse Sheidlower


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun 20 22:17:10 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:17:10 -0700
Subject: "Kidpreneur" and its ilk
In-Reply-To: <394FE64A.A6549638@voyager.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.151710.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Too bad this trend wasn't around during the heyday of Bhagwan Shree
Rajneesh. He would have been known as the world's greatest mantrapreneur.

(Not gonna sign this one.)

--On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 5:46 PM -0400 Bob Fitzke <fitzke at VOYAGER.NET> wrote:

> Or someone who sells animal doo-doo; a manurepreneur.
>
> Bob
>
> jester at PANIX.COM wrote:
>>
>> Larry Horn wrote:
>> >
>> > How about someone who markets a service delivering main courses in the
>> > States or pre-main courses in France?  That would, of course, be an
>> > entreepreneur.
>>
>> As contrasted with such a person who markets this service
>> online, who would be an eentreepreneur.
>>
>> Jesse Sheidlower



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Jun 20 22:27:57 2000
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:27:57 -0700
Subject: outdated metaphors
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000620160708.007d5370@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.152757.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Robert S. Wachal wrote:

> Anyone interested in joining me to develop a publishable list of out-dated
> metaphors,  especially those caused by the obsolescence of things
> mechanical, e.g., "she could suck the knob off a gearshift lever."?
>
> Bob
>

Are gearshift levers obsolete? I guess it's time to get a newer car...
Now the "typewriter gearshift" THAT'S obsolete, although I remember them
fondly ...

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 21 00:07:31 2000
From: ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM (Jane Clark)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:07:31 GMT
Subject: biscotti
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.000731.GMT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Me too. Ask Martha Stewart. They are cookies that are baked twice, so they
are very hard but yummy. I can't imagine a place where people have never had
biscotti. Hello!


>From: "Robert S. Wachal" <robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: biscotti
>Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 09:44:44 -0500
>
>I am surprised that this word (and item) seems almost exotic.  here in Iowa
>City, IA, they are available in all coffee houses and several supermarkets.
>  I'll bet that the same is true of many college towns.
>
>Wachal

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


From ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 21 00:37:35 2000
From: ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM (Jane Clark)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:37:35 GMT
Subject: Barry Popik t-shirts
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.003735.GMT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had a lovely dinner with Mr. Cassidy in California. Somehow I don't think
a t shirt is quite apropriate for such an elegant and wise man. I miss him
already.
J.Clark


>From: Barnhart <ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Barry Popik t-shirts
>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:12:39 -0400
>
>The policy of the committee was that in order to be t-shirted one had
>to be dead.
>
>Regards,
>David (the other member of the t-shirt committee)

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 21 00:48:49 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:48:49 -0400
Subject: Cooking South of the Rio Grande (1935)
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.204849.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I finally picked up my copies from last week.  From COOKING SOUTH OF THE RIO GRANDE (San Antonio, 1935):

Pg. 21:
_Menudo con Pezole_
Tripe
   Cut the tripe into very small pieces.  Clean very carefully.  Place in a kettle with water to cover and cook over a very slow fire until it is soft and tender.  Add salt, black pepper, garlic, chile powder and hominy to suit your taste.  Serve hot.

Pg. 27:
_Quesadillas_
1 dozen tortillas
1 lb. white cheese (grated)
   Place grated cheese on tortilla and wrap, fastening with a tooth pick; place in a hot oven without fire until cheese melts and pour over tortilla when removed from oven, a hot sauce to suit taste.

Pg. 28:
_Tostados_
   Use the Tortilla dough making tortillas exactly as directed in previous recipe.  Instead of baking over a griddle pan, the raw tortilla is fried in deep fat until it fluffs up.  After it is golden brown and is puffed up as much as it will go, fold carefully in half and fry some more until it is very crisp.  Remove from fat and drain on heavy brown paper.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Wed Jun 21 00:54:19 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:54:19 -0700
Subject: Cooking South of the Rio Grande (1935)
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.175419.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> _Tostados_
>    Use the Tortilla dough making tortillas exactly as directed in previous recipe.  Instead of baking over a griddle pan, the raw tortilla is fried in deep fat until it fluffs up.  After it is golden brown and is puffed up as much as it will go, fold carefully in half and fry some more until it is very crisp.  Remove from fat and drain on heavy brown paper.


Add whole milk cheese, chorizo sausage, eat, and wait for arteries to harden.

--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Kid" by Aardman Animation


From weetrick at ALLTEL.NET  Wed Jun 21 03:00:28 2000
From: weetrick at ALLTEL.NET (Patrick McGraw)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:00:28 -0400
Subject: "Kidpreneur" and its ilk
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.230028.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Chairman of Hyundai is the world's leading Elantrapreneur.

And someone who founds a company that makes cancer drugs is an oncopreneur.
Not to be confused with an innovative car horn manufacturer, known as a
honkopreneur.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at linfield.edu>
To: "American Dialect Society" <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: "Kidpreneur" and its ilk


> Too bad this trend wasn't around during the heyday of Bhagwan Shree
> Rajneesh. He would have been known as the world's greatest mantrapreneur.
>
> (Not gonna sign this one.)
>
> --On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 5:46 PM -0400 Bob Fitzke <fitzke at VOYAGER.NET>
wrote:
>
> > Or someone who sells animal doo-doo; a manurepreneur.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > jester at PANIX.COM wrote:
> >>
> >> Larry Horn wrote:
> >> >
> >> > How about someone who markets a service delivering main courses in
the
> >> > States or pre-main courses in France?  That would, of course, be an
> >> > entreepreneur.
> >>
> >> As contrasted with such a person who markets this service
> >> online, who would be an eentreepreneur.
> >>
> >> Jesse Sheidlower
>
>
>
>
****************************************************************************
>                                Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu
>


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Wed Jun 21 04:26:29 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 21:26:29 -0700
Subject: Dialect2000 conference notice
In-Reply-To: <200006210401.VAA16471@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUN.2000.212629.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Too bad the information wasn't sent in readable form. All I got was pages
of meaningless numbers-and-letters.

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 21 04:48:05 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:48:05 EDT
Subject: Mexican Chocolate; Tex-Mex; S.O.B. Stew; Devil's Food
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.004805.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   There are tons of gems in these Texas cookbooks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MEXICAN CHOCOLATE (continued)

   From THE TEXAS COOKBOOK (1949) by Arthur and Bobbie Coleman, pg. 234:

   Anyone interested in taking a few pains will be rewarded amply by getting
Mexican chocolate.  Mexican shops in this country carry two kinds.  One they
make up here into round cakes.  The other they import from Mexico, where it
is made up in squares, much like ours, except that the Mexican chocolate is
usually better and also has the flavoring, sugar, and perhaps the eggs
already in it.  Then, to beat it, you can use either the _molinillo_, which
is the wooden beater of Mexico, or a Dover egg-beater.
   We recommend only Mexican chocolate, with the flavoring and sweetening in
it, for the following recipe.
   _Mexican Chocolate_
   Take a 1-inch square of Mexican chocolate for each cup of milk.  Bring the
chocolate and the milk to a slow boil, and cook slowly for 10 minutes.
Remove from the fire and beat with a _molinillo_ or with an egg-beater until
a thick (Pg. 235--ed.) foam is formed.  Make only 1 cup at a time, and pour
very carefully into chocolate cups.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TEX-MEX

   The OED has Tex-Mex from 1945, but Tex-Mex "cooking" appears to be from
1973.
   From THE WIDE, WIDE WORLD OF TEXAS COOKING (1970) by Morton Gill Clark,
pg. 57:

   Find a Texan away from Texas any length of time and what is he longing to
eat?  Not filet mignon with Bearnaise sauce, not lobster a l"Americaine (Pg.
58--ed.), but Tex-Mex dishes...or anyway dishes with a Tex-Mex taste, such as
_enchiladas_, _frijoles refritos_, _tacos_, lettuce and sliced tomato with
grated cheese, _Guacamole_, _Tortillas_, sauce picante.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SON-OF-A-BITCH STEW (continued)

   Another S.O.B. citation (still not the 1800s, but at least closer) is from
THE TEXAS COOKBOOK (1949) by Arthur and Bobbie Coleman, pg. 45:

   And then there is the way that is all Texas' own: the original
Son-of-a-Bitch Stew.  It grew up on the far ranches, where cowbrutes are the
main source of food.  But no one should let its apparent sparseness deceive
him.  The Son-of-a-Bitch Stew is well-named--it is just that, in the admiring
sense.
   This recipe is straight off Uncle Jim's range, out in the Pecos Country,
exactly as Aunt Nannie gave it to us.  Aunt Nannie ought to know.  She has
been cooking this stew and other good food for cowpokes since we were
yearlings, more or less.  Of course, these quantities have been citified.
Aunt Nannie is more used to fixing for a couple of dozen hungry hands than
for a family.
   _Pecos Son-of-a-Bitch Stew_
   Throw into the pot 1 pound of neck meat cut in small pieces, 1 heart cut
up, the brains, all the marrow-gut, a (Pg. 46--ed.) little of the liver,
salt, pepper, and _chiles_.  Start in cold water.  Cook slowly until done,
about 6 or 7 hours.  When the meat is almost done, add 1 large can of tomato
juice, if desired.  Feeds about 8.
   For the edification of those who may be dubious about marrow-gut, it is
not an intestine.  It is a milk-secreting tract found only in calves, and it
imparts to a stew a delicious flavor all its own, without which the stew is
nothing like so distinctive.  Here is another version of the Son-of-a-Bitch
Stew, which Jack Thornton says out in the country where he ranched for many
years is called "Gentleman from Odessa" (Odessa, Texas, of course)--nobody we
ever met seems to know why--but for the mollification of gentlemen from
Odessa, he smiled when he said it.  In fact, he laughed out loud. (...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
DEVIL'S FOOD

   What else can you serve after S.O.B.?
   John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK has: "The first
devil's-food recipe appeared in 1900..."
   THE CAPITOL COOK BOOK (Austin, TX, 1899) has _two_ "devil's food" recipes
on page 123.  The library closed before I could copy them.


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Wed Jun 21 05:57:23 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:57:23 -0500
Subject: Dialect2000 conference notice
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.005723.0500.>

Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>
> Too bad the information wasn't sent in readable form. All I got was pages
> of meaningless numbers-and-letters.
>
>         Rudy

This may be a little better.  Enjoy!

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!

N.B.: The original text, in rich text format, leaned a lot on changing
fonts, boldface, and italics for organization and emphasis.  Since we
can't do that in plain ASCII text, I took the liberty of adding lots of
paragraph breaks for clarity.  Except for that, the following is
unchanged from the attachment you couldn't see in meaningful form:

DIALECT2000
9-16 August 2000
The Queen's University of Belfast

incorporating

6th International Conference on the Languages of Scotland and Ulster
(6ICLSU)
 (in collaboration with the Forum for Research on the Languages of
Scotland and Ulster)



2nd International Conference on the Languages of Ireland (2ICLI)
(sequel to the First Conference, University of Ulster, Jordanstown, June
1994)

Organisers: Dr. John M. Kirk and Prof. D?nall ? Baoill
email: J.M.Kirk at qub.ac.uk and d.obaoill at qub.ac.uk
tel. (+)44 (0)28 9027 3815 and (+4) (0)28 9027 3390
fax. (+)44 (0)28 9031 4615

Postal Address:
DIALECT2000
School of English
Queen's University Belfast
Belfast, BT7 1NN
Northern Ireland

Provisional Programme

Wednesday 9 August:                     Arrival

Thursday 10-Friday 11 August:   6ICLSU Papers

Saturday 12 August                      Language, Politics and Ethnolinguistics
Sunday 13 August:                       Linguistic Cultural Tour of Northern
Ireland
Monday 14-Tuesday 15 August     2ICLI Papers
Wednesday 16 August                     Depart

 6ICLSU Papers: Draft Timetable (version 6: 15 June 2000)

Thursday 10 August 2000

9.30    Opening Speeches

10.00   Tribute to A.J.Aitken
Isebail Macleod and Marace Dareau

10.15   Tribute to R.J. Gregg
Philip Robinson and Michael Montgomery

10.30   Coffee

11.00   4 Historical Papers

        Kay Muhr (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Common Elements in Irish and Scottish Place-Names

        Susanne Kries (University of Potsdam)
        The Linguistic Evidence for Scandinavian-Scottish Cultural Contact in
the Middle Ages: The Case of Southwest Scotland

        Marace Dareau (DOST, University of Edinburgh)
        Exploring the Scots/Gaelic Interface

        Volker Mohr (University of Heidelberg)
        Scottish Linguistics, 1595-1872: An Annotated Bibliography

13.00   Lunch

14.00   3 Papers on Phonology

        Volker Mohr (University of Heidelberg)
        Verb Morphology, Aitken's Law and Old Norse: Evidence from Southern
Scots

        Caroline Macafee (University of Aberdeen)
        Lowland Sources of Ulster Scots: Gregg and LAS3 Compared

        Kevin McCafferty (University of Troms?)
        The mither leid: Mrs M.C. Gregg and the shape of Ulster-Scots

15.30   Tea

16.00   3 Historical Overviews

        Manfred G?rlach (University of Cologne)
        Scots: the Outside View?

        Michael Montgomery (University of South Carolina)
        How the Montgomeries Lost the Scots Language

        Karen P. Corrigan (University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne)
        Central Places vs. Enclaves: The Spreead of Northern Dialects of
English/Scots and the Survival of Irish in County Armagh, N.I. 1600-1900

17.30   Marace Dareau and Isebail MacLeod
        Update on the Scottish Dictionary Projects

18.00   End of Afternoon Session

Evening Reception

 Friday, 11 August

9.30    3 Papers on Stylistics

        Derrick McClure (University of Aberdeen)
        Trom-Laighe or Widdreme: Scotticising Sorley MacLean

        Susana Calvo Alvaro (University of Aberdeen)
        20th Century Popular Scottish Theatre and the Scots Language: A
Sociolinguistic Study

        Walter Morani (Milan)
        Gendering Oor National Language: 'Queer Scots' in Contemporary Gay and
        Lesbian Theatre in Scotland

11.00   Coffee

11.30   3 Papers on Sociolinguistics

        Ronald Macaulay (Pitzer College)
        Age, Gender, and Social Class Differences in Glasgow Discourse

        Danielle L?w (University of Heidelberg)
        Language Attitudes and Language Use in Pitmedden

        Mari Imamura (University of Aberdeen)
        Methodological Deliberations on Investigating Teachers'
Metalinguistic          Awareness and the Preservation of Scots Dialects

13.00   Lunch

14.00   Gaelic

        Morag MacNeil (Sabal Mor Ostaig)
        Deconstructing and Reconstructing: Gaelic Identities in Shift

14.30   Shetland

        Walter Morani (Milan)
        Scots and Shetlandic in the Poetry of Christine De Luca

        Doreen Waugh (University of Glasgow)
        Conscious Archaisms in Shetland Dialect

15.30   Tea

16.00   Song

        Sheila Douglas (Perth)
        The Scots Language and the Song Tradition

        Steve Sweeney-Turner (University of the Highlands and Islands)
        The Political Parlour: Identity and Ideology in Scottish National Song

17.00   Plenary

        Manfred G?rlach (University of Cologne)
        What is Ulster Scots?

18.30   University Reception

19.30   Dinner

20.30   Evening Session:

        Sheila Douglas, Brian Mullen, Len Graham, John Campbell
        Child Ballads and Ireland



Dialect 2000: Language Links
Language, Politics and Ethnolinguistics
Saturday 12 August 2000, Queen's University Belfast

This day-long Symposium will be concerned with language and politics
with particular emphasis on ethnolinguistics within a political
accommodation of equality. We see this as an opportunity to focus on the
growing politicisation of linguistic rights in both Ireland and Scotland
and the response by the various national and devolved governments. As
the Belfast Good Friday Agreement contains a very strong bill of human
rights, we consider it important to consider all minority groups seeking
political redress and who feel subject to discrimination on grounds of
language. We think in particular of the travelling community, the deaf
communities who use Irish Sign Language as well as British Sign
Language, and more generally of gender and sexual identity. Our hope is
that the debate, which tends to focus on Irish Gaelic and Ulster Scots
in the North and on Scottish Gaelic and Scots in Scotland, might benefit
from its contextualisation within a wider framework of linguistic
diversity and political recognition and accommodation, as, indeed, the
Good Friday Agreement seeks to do.

        The Symposium will be structured into four sessions:

? The Symposium will open by several presentations dealing with
institutional and political arrangements dealing with these issues in
place in Northern Ireland before and leading up to the Good Friday
Agreement. So far, we have received commitments from D?nall O Riag?in
(General Secretary, European Bureau for Lesser-Used Languages) and Mari
FitzDuff (Director, INCORE, University of Ulster, and former Chief
executive, NI Community Relations Council). Further invitations are
still being considered.

? The second session will be devoted to statements by constituent
spokespersons and activists seeking to show that there has been real or
perceived discrimination of a kind that can be attributed to language of
one sort or another, and with reference to the Good Friday Agreement
appealing to the new devolved government for assistance and support. So
far we have received commitments from the non-indigenous language
communities, the deaf community, the women's community, and the gay
community. Invitations to the Irish Gaelic community, the Ulster Scots
community, and the Travellers community are still being considered.

? The third session will be devoted to statements and responses by
Ministers of devolved government about the way forward and the better
future for all of us. So far, Sean Farran, Minister for Higher
Education, has committed himself to speaking, and Dermot Nesbitt, Junior
Minister in the Office of First and Deputy First Minister, and Michael
McGimpsey, Minister for Culture, arts and Leisure, are reconsidering the
invitations now that they have resumed their roles. In addition, we hope
to have a spokesperson from the new NI Human Rights Commission and from
the two new language agencies forming the North-South Implementation
Body on Language.

? The final session will be devoted to discussion between all speakers,
participants, and any other invited guests.
 2ICLI Papers (Draft 6: 15 June 2000)

Monday 14 August 2000

9.00-10.30      Plenary

        Markku Filppula (University of Joensuu)
        Irish Influence in Hiberno-English: Some Problems of Argumentation

10.30   Coffee

11.00-13.00     5 Papers on Contact and Syntax

        Karen P. Corrigan (University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne)
        Languages in Contact: Some Solutions for Northern Hiberno-English?

        Kevin McCafferty (University of Troms?)
        Is it already dropping the future and now forgetting the recent past
we'll be after? Change in the Irish English be after V-ing construction

        Terence Odlin (Ohio State University)
        Substrate Influence and Linguistic Identity: The Cases of Ebonics and
Anglo-Irish

        Patricia Ronan (University of Marburg)
        On the Progressive in Hiberno-English

13.00   Lunch

14.00   5 Papers on Irish Syntax, Phonology, and Proverbs

        Aidan Doyle (University of Gdansk)
        Complex Predicates in Irish and English

        Peter McQuillan (University of Notre Dame)
        Language, Culture and History: the Case of Ir. duchas

        Natalia A. Nikolaeva (Lomonossov Moscow State University)
        On the Phonology of the O.Ir. Names Amlaib, ?mar, Tomrair

        Brian O Curnain (Institute of Advanced Studies, Dublin)
        The New Ir. 3rd pers. pl. form <adar>

        Fionnuala Carson Williams  (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Quotation Proverbs in Ireland

16.30   Tea

17.00
        Michael Montgomery (University of South Carolina)
        Early Modern English in Ulster

        Alison Henry (University of Ulster at Jordanstown)
        Expletives and agreement in Belfast English

18.00    End of afternoon session

Evening Reception


 Tuesday 15 August 2000

9.00    Special Session on Travellers Language

        Mary Burke (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Simply bad English with some bad Irish thrown in: The Ambiguous
Status          of Shelta in Ireland

        M?che?l ? hAodha (University of Limerick)
        The acquisition of Cant "slang" by teenagers in Galway city

        Martin McDonough
        tba

        Sally Flynn
        tba

        Sinead Ni Shuinear
        A History of Academic Treatment of Traveller Language

        Sheila Douglas
        Travellers Cant in Scotland

13.00 Lunch

14.00   Special Session on Language, Politics and Education

        Liam Andrews (Belfast)
        The Politics of the Irish-language Movement in Northern Ireland: the
1920s and the 1930s

        Aod?n Mac P?ilin (Ultach Trust, Belfast)
        Shotgun Marriages: Cross-border (Irish/Ulster-Scots) Language Body

        Simone Zwickl (University of Heidelberg)
        Language Attitudes towards the Irish Language and towards Dialect
across  the Northern Irish/Irish Border

        Brian Lambkin (Centre for Migration Studies, Ulster-American Folk Park)
        Migration, Education for Linguistic Diversity and the Introduction of
Citizenship Education to Schools in Northern Ireland

        Fionnuala Carson Williams (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Terms, Phrases, the Local Press and the Northern Ireland Conflict

        Malcolm Scott (Ultach Trust, Belfast)
        The Bishop, the Highlanders and the Fanatick's': William King, DD, and
Immigration from Argyll and the Isles

        Eugene McKendry (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Modern Languages Education Policies in Ireland and Britain

        Alison Henry and Cathy Finlay (University of Ulster
        Linguistic Discrimination: Local Language Varieties, Education and
Employment in Northern Ireland

18.30   End of Afternoon Session

Evening Reception

Wednesday 16 August

9.00-10.30      Plenary

        Raymond Hickey (University of Essen)
        Ireland as a Linguistic Area

10.30   Simone Zwickl (University of Heidelberg)
        Dialect Use in Armagh and Monaghan: Linguistic and Extralinguistic
Factors

11.00   Coffee

11.30   3 Papers on Phonology

        Geoff Lindsey and John Harris (University College London)
        Irish English Dentals: Phonetic Exponence versus Enhancement

        D?nall ? Baoill (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        ng-deletion: an Ulster-Irish Feature?

        Kevin McCafferty (University of Troms?)
        (London)Derry English: the last word

13.00   Lunch

14.00   Ireland

        Jeffrey A. Kallen (TCD) and John M. Kirk (QUB)
        ICE Ireland: A First Report

        Goodith White (University of Leeds)
        The Names of Irish English

15.00   Final Meeting

15.15   Departure


From john.kirk at UNITE.CO.UK  Wed Jun 21 11:16:11 2000
From: john.kirk at UNITE.CO.UK (John Kirk)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:16:11 +0100
Subject: DIALECT2000: Language Links - Scotland and Ireland
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.121611.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


DIALECT2000
9-16 August 2000
The Queen's University of Belfast

incorporating

6th International Conference
on the Languages of Scotland and Ulster (6ICLSU)
  (in collaboration with
the Forum for Research on the Languages of Scotland and Ulster)



2nd International Conference
on the Languages of Ireland (2ICLI)
(sequel to the First Conference, University of Ulster, Jordanstown, June 1994)


Organisers: Dr. John M. Kirk and Prof. D?nall ? Baoill
email: J.M.Kirk at qub.ac.uk and d.obaoill at qub.ac.uk
tel. (+)44 (0)28 9027 3815 and (+4) (0)28 9027 3390
fax. (+)44 (0)28 9031 4615

Postal Address:
DIALECT2000
School of English
Queen's University Belfast
Belfast, BT7 1NN
Northern Ireland




Provisional Programme

Wednesday 9 August:                     Arrival
Thursday 10-Friday 11 August:   6ICLSU Papers
Saturday 12 August                      Language, Politics and Ethnolinguistics
Sunday 13 August:                       Linguistic Cultural Tour of
Northern Ireland
Monday 14-Tuesday 15 August     2ICLI Papers
Wednesday 16 August             Depart

  6ICLSU Papers: Draft Timetable (version 6: 15 June 2000)

Thursday 10 August 2000

9.30    Opening Speeches


 Tribute to A.J.Aitken
Isebail Macleod and Marace Dareau

10.15 Tribute to R.J. Gregg
Philip Robinson and Michael Montgomery

10.30   Coffee

11.00   4 Historical Papers
        Kay Muhr (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Common Elements in Irish and Scottish Place-Names
        Susanne Kries (University of Potsdam)
        The Linguistic Evidence for Scandinavian-Scottish Cultural
Contact in the Middle
Ages: The Case of Southwest Scotland
        Marace Dareau (DOST, University of Edinburgh)
        Exploring the Scots/Gaelic Interface
        Volker Mohr (University of Heidelberg)
        Scottish Linguistics, 1595-1872: An Annotated Bibliography

13.00   Lunch

14.00   3 Papers on Phonology
        Volker Mohr (University of Heidelberg)
        Verb Morphology, Aitken's Law and Old Norse: Evidence from
Southern Scots
        Caroline Macafee (University of Aberdeen)
        Lowland Sources of Ulster Scots: Gregg and LAS3 Compared
        Kevin McCafferty (University of Troms?)
        The mither leid: Mrs M.C. Gregg and the shape of Ulster-Scots

15.30   Tea

16.00   3 Historical Overviews
        Manfred G?rlach (University of Cologne)
        Scots: the Outside View?
        Michael Montgomery (University of South Carolina)
        How the Montgomeries Lost the Scots Language
        Karen P. Corrigan (University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne)
        Central Places vs. Enclaves: The Spreead of Northern Dialects
of English/Scots and the Survival
of Irish in County Armagh, N.I. 1600-1900

17.30   Marace Dareau and Isebail MacLeod
        Update on the Scottish Dictionary Projects

18.00   End of Afternoon Session

Evening Reception
  Friday, 11 August

9.30    3 Papers on Stylistics
        Derrick McClure (University of Aberdeen)
        Trom-Laighe or Widdreme: Scotticising Sorley MacLean
        Susana Calvo Alvaro (University of Aberdeen)
        20th Century Popular Scottish Theatre and the Scots Language:
A Sociolinguistic
Study
        Walter Morani (Milan)
        Gendering Oor National Language: 'Queer Scots' in Contemporary Gay and
        Lesbian Theatre in Scotland

11.00   Coffee

11.30   3 Papers on Sociolinguistics
        Ronald Macaulay (Pitzer College)
        Age, Gender, and Social Class Differences in Glasgow Discourse
        Danielle L?w (University of Heidelberg)
        Language Attitudes and Language Use in Pitmedden
        Mari Imamura (University of Aberdeen)
        Methodological Deliberations on Investigating Teachers'
Metalinguistic Awareness and the
Preservation of Scots Dialects

13.00   Lunch

14.00   Gaelic
        Morag MacNeil (Sabal Mor Ostaig)
        Deconstructing and Reconstructing: Gaelic Identities in Shift

14.30   Shetland
        Walter Morani (Milan)
        Scots and Shetlandic in the Poetry of Christine De Luca
        Doreen Waugh (University of Glasgow)
        Conscious Archaisms in Shetland Dialect

15.30   Tea

16.00   Song
        Sheila Douglas (Perth)
        The Scots Language and the Song Tradition
        Steve Sweeney-Turner (University of the Highlands and Islands)
        The Political Parlour: Identity and Ideology in Scottish National Song

17.00   Plenary
        Manfred G?rlach (University of Cologne)
        What is Ulster Scots?

18.30   University Reception

19.30   Dinner

20.30   Evening Session:
        Sheila Douglas, Brian Mullen, Len Graham, John Campbell
        Child Ballads and Ireland



Dialect 2000: Language Links
Language, Politics and Ethnolinguistics
Saturday 12 August 2000, Queen's University Belfast

This day-long Symposium will be concerned with language and politics
with particular emphasis on ethnolinguistics within a political
accommodation of equality. We see this as an opportunity to focus on
the growing politicisation of linguistic rights in both Ireland and
Scotland and the response by the various national and devolved
governments. As the Belfast Good Friday Agreement contains a very
strong bill of human rights, we consider it important to consider all
minority groups seeking political redress and who feel subject to
discrimination on grounds of language. We think in particular of the
travelling community, the deaf communities who use Irish Sign
Language as well as British Sign Language, and more generally of
gender and sexual identity. Our hope is that the debate, which tends
to focus on Irish Gaelic and Ulster Scots in the North and on
Scottish Gaelic and Scots in Scotland, might benefit from its
contextualisation within a wider framework of linguistic diversity
and political recognition and accommodation, as, indeed, the Good
Friday Agreement seeks to do.

        The Symposium will be structured into four sessions:


 The Symposium will open by several presentations dealing with
institutional and political arrangements dealing with these issues in
place in Northern Ireland before and leading up to the Good Friday
Agreement. So far, we have received commitments from D?nall O Riag?in
(General Secretary, European Bureau for Lesser-Used Languages) and
Mari FitzDuff (Director, INCORE, University of Ulster, and former
Chief executive, NI Community Relations Council). Further invitations
are still being considered.


 The second session will be devoted to statements by constituent
spokespersons and activists seeking to show that there has been real
or perceived discrimination of a kind that can be attributed to
language of one sort or another, and with reference to the Good
Friday Agreement appealing to the new devolved government for
assistance and support. So far we have received commitments from the
non-indigenous language communities, the deaf community, the women's
community, and the gay community. Invitations to the Irish Gaelic
community, the Ulster Scots community, and the Travellers community
are still being considered.


 The third session will be devoted to statements and responses by
Ministers of devolved government about the way forward and the better
future for all of us. So far, Sean Farran, Minister for Higher
Education, has committed himself to speaking, and Dermot Nesbitt,
Junior Minister in the Office of First and Deputy First Minister, and
Michael McGimpsey, Minister for Culture, arts and Leisure, are
reconsidering the invitations now that they have resumed their roles.
In addition, we hope to have a spokesperson from the new NI Human
Rights Commission and from the two new language agencies forming the
North-South Implementation Body on Language.


 The final session will be devoted to discussion between all
speakers, participants, and any other invited guests.
  2ICLI Papers (Draft 6: 15 June 2000)

Monday 14 August 2000

9.00-10.30      Plenary
        Markku Filppula (University of Joensuu)
        Irish Influence in Hiberno-English: Some Problems of Argumentation

10.30   Coffee

11.00-13.00     5 Papers on Contact and Syntax
        Karen P. Corrigan (University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne)
        Languages in Contact: Some Solutions for Northern Hiberno-English?
        Kevin McCafferty (University of Troms?)
        Is it already dropping the future and now forgetting the
recent past we'll be after? Change in the
Irish English be after V-ing construction
        Terence Odlin (Ohio State University)
        Substrate Influence and Linguistic Identity: The Cases of
Ebonics and Anglo-Irish
        Patricia Ronan (University of Marburg)
        On the Progressive in Hiberno-English

13.00   Lunch

14.00   5 Papers on Irish Syntax, Phonology, and Proverbs
        Aidan Doyle (University of Gdansk)
        Complex Predicates in Irish and English
        Peter McQuillan (University of Notre Dame)
        Language, Culture and History: the Case of Ir. duchas
        Natalia A. Nikolaeva (Lomonossov Moscow State University)
        On the Phonology of the O.Ir. Names Amlaib, ?mar, Tomrair
        Brian O Curnain (Institute of Advanced Studies, Dublin)
        The New Ir. 3rd pers. pl. form <adar>
        Fionnuala Carson Williams  (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Quotation Proverbs in Ireland

16.30   Tea

17.00
        Michael Montgomery (University of South Carolina)
        Early Modern English in Ulster
        Alison Henry (University of Ulster at Jordanstown)
        Expletives and agreement in Belfast English

18.00    End of afternoon session

Evening Reception


  Tuesday 15 August 2000

9.00    Special Session on Travellers Language
        Mary Burke (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Simply bad English with some bad Irish thrown in: The
Ambiguous Status of Shelta in Ireland
        M?che?l ? hAodha (University of Limerick)
        The acquisition of Cant "slang" by teenagers in Galway city
        Martin McDonough
        tba
        Sally Flynn
        tba
        Sinead Ni Shuinear
        A History of Academic Treatment of Traveller Language
        Sheila Douglas
Travellers Cant in Scotland

13.00 Lunch

14.00   Special Session on Language, Politics and Education
        Liam Andrews (Belfast)
        The Politics of the Irish-language Movement in Northern
Ireland: the 1920s and the 1930s
        Aod?n Mac P?ilin (Ultach Trust, Belfast)
        Shotgun Marriages: Cross-border (Irish/Ulster-Scots) Language Body
        Simone Zwickl (University of Heidelberg)
        Language Attitudes towards the Irish Language and towards
Dialect across the      Northern Irish/Irish Border
        Brian Lambkin (Centre for Migration Studies, Ulster-American Folk Park)
        Migration, Education for Linguistic Diversity and the
Introduction of Citizenship Education to
Schools in Northern Ireland
        Fionnuala Carson Williams (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Terms, Phrases, the Local Press and the Northern Ireland Conflict
        Malcolm Scott (Ultach Trust, Belfast)
        The Bishop, the Highlanders and the Fanatick's': William
King, DD, and Immigration from
Argyll and the Isles
        Eugene McKendry (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        Modern Languages Education Policies in Ireland and Britain
        Alison Henry and Cathy Finlay (University of Ulster
        Linguistic Discrimination: Local Language Varieties,
Education and   Employment in Northern
Ireland

18.30   End of Afternoon Session

Evening Reception
  Wednesday 16 August

9.00-10.30      Plenary
        Raymond Hickey (University of Essen)
        Ireland as a Linguistic Area
10.30   Simone Zwickl (University of Heidelberg)
        Dialect Use in Armagh and Monaghan: Linguistic and
Extralinguistic Factors

11.00   Coffee

11.30   3 Papers on Phonology
        Geoff Lindsey and John Harris (University College London)
        Irish English Dentals: Phonetic Exponence versus Enhancement
        D?nall ? Baoill (The Queen's University of Belfast)
        ng-deletion: an Ulster-Irish Feature?
        Kevin McCafferty (University of Troms?)
        (London)Derry English: the last word

13.00   Lunch

14.00   Ireland
        Jeffrey A. Kallen (TCD) and John M. Kirk (QUB)
        ICE Ireland: A First Report
        Goodith White (University of Leeds)
        The Names of Irish English

15.00   Final Meeting

15.15   Departure

  DIALECT2000: 9-16 August 2000 The Queen's University of Belfast

        The conference fees comprise ?25.00 registration and
administrration (non-refundable) and ?75.00 participation (refundable
if cancelled in advance). The participation fee will include all
events, morning coffees and afternoon teas, any organised
transportation, the ballad recital, the coach tour on 13 August, and
a copy of any proceedings.
        The full-board packagedeal runs from Dinner on 9 August to
Lunch on 16 August. We hope as many as possible will be residential
(in brand-new hall of residence accommodation) and book on a
full-board basis.Dinner, Bed and Breakfast and Lunch is UK?50.00 per
day (no reduction for meals not taken), so that the full 7-day
package will be (7 x UK?50.00 = UK?350.00. Each 24-hour period from
dinner through to lunch may be booked @?50.00 per day. Please
indicate number of nights and dates of arrival and departure.
        Non-residential participants will pay the conference feeand
make their own arrangements for meals, although lunch and dinner will
likely be available if required. Details later.

  REGISTRATION FORM

Name __________________________________________________

Institution _______________________________________________

Address





Email ___________________________________________________

_______ I enclose UK?25.00 non-refundable Registration Fee (payable
to "The         Queen's University of Belfast").

Please invoice me for the following:

EITHER
______  Participation Fee plus full package from Wednesday, 9th to
                        Wednesday, 16th August, totalling ?425.00
OR
______  Participation Fee (?75.00) plus part package for _____ nights
(@                      ?50.00 per night) from __________, ___ August
to __________, ____             August, totalling _____________ .
OR
______  Participation Fee only ?75.00 (I will make my own
arrangements fir                accommodation and meals.)


Signed _____________________________  Date _______________



Please return to Dr. John M. Kirk (DIALECT2000), School of English,
The Queen's University of Belfast, Belfast, BT7 1NN, Northern
Ireland, by 31.5.2000.






--
John Kirk
Co-Organiser, Dialect2000: Language Links
School of English
Queen's University Belfast
Email: J.M.Kirk at qub.ac.uk
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From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Wed Jun 21 12:08:03 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:08:03 +0100
Subject: GuideStar report on ADS
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.130803.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> From:         AAllan at AOL.COM
> Nonprofits have the opportunity to post information about their program and
> goals, and I just did that for ADS. If you're curious, go to
> www.guidestar.org
> and just type in "American Dialect Society."
>
> If you see anything that needs correction, let me know. - Allan Metcalf

I think it's too bad that the Guidestar summary says:

The American Dialect Society is an association of scholars and others
interested in studying the English language in North America, past and
present.

whereas the ADS site adds:
- and of other languages, or dialects of other languages, influencing it or
influenced by it.


It's probably that way because of a word limit, but I think it makes us sound
like guardians of English.

Lynne


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Wed Jun 21 13:12:43 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:12:43 -0400
Subject: outdated metaphors
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000620160708.007d5370@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.091243.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Robert S. Wachal wrote:

> Anyone interested in joining me to develop a publishable list of out-dated
> metaphors,  especially those caused by the obsolescence of things
> mechanical, e.g., "she could suck the knob off a gearshift lever."?

I don't know that that's obsolescent. I've heard that within the past
year. (Well, the subject was 'he'.) Automatic cars still have gearshifts
with knobs on the end.


--- Steve K.


From vneufeldt at M-W.COM  Wed Jun 21 13:12:12 2000
From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:12:12 -0400
Subject: outdated metaphors
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000620160708.007d5370@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.091212.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hey, what's outdated about gearshift levers?

Victoria
vneufeldt at m-w.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Robert S. Wachal
> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 5:07 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: outdated metaphors
>
>
> Anyone interested in joining me to develop a publishable list of out-dated
> metaphors,  especially those caused by the obsolescence of things
> mechanical, e.g., "she could suck the knob off a gearshift lever."?
>
> Bob
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 21 15:54:36 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:54:36 -0400
Subject: outdated metaphors
In-Reply-To: <000201bfdb82$506fd140$282b62ce@vneufeldt.m-w.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.115436.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:12 AM -0400 6/21/00, Victoria Neufeldt wrote:
>Hey, what's outdated about gearshift levers?
>
>Victoria
>vneufeldt at m-w.com

The levers aren't obsolete--it's just that all their knobs have long since
been sucked off...


larry

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
>> Of Robert S. Wachal
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 5:07 PM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: outdated metaphors
>>
>>
>> Anyone interested in joining me to develop a publishable list of out-dated
>> metaphors,  especially those caused by the obsolescence of things
>> mechanical, e.g., "she could suck the knob off a gearshift lever."?
>>
>> Bob
>>


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Wed Jun 21 17:09:59 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:09:59 -0700
Subject: "Kidpreneur" and its ilk
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.100959.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And someone who starts a marksmanship and animal tracking company is a
hunterpreneur.

Argh!  Check out the "Dark and Stormy Night" category of the Bulwer-Lytton
contest winners of '99:

http://www.bulwer-lytton.com
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Kid" by Aardman Animation


From bawals at NYTIMES.COM  Wed Jun 21 19:01:32 2000
From: bawals at NYTIMES.COM (Barclay Walsh)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:01:32 -0400
Subject: rogue states
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.150132.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Dialect Society -

I'm hoping someone can help - we are  looking for predecessor terms to the
phrase "rogue states."

What were the catch phrases from past decades used to lump together outlaw
nations?

Appreciate any help you can give

Barclay Walsh
Research Supervisor
DC Bureau- NY Times


From michael at RFA.ORG  Wed Jun 21 19:37:36 2000
From: michael at RFA.ORG (Michael)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:37:36 -0400
Subject: rogue states
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000621145800.00c5fe90@mailgate.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.153736.0400.>

the consensus here at my office is that before 'rogue
states' was used, it was either 'terrorist states' or
'the radical entente', the former being seen much more
often than the latter.

best,
michael
============================================
           michael hunter horlick
               michael at rfa.org
--------------------------------------------
      Sileann do chara agus do namhaid
       nach bhfaighidh t? b? choiche.
                        - Irish Proverb
============================================
-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Barclay Walsh
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 3:02 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: rogue states


Dear Dialect Society -

I'm hoping someone can help - we are  looking for predecessor terms to the
phrase "rogue states."

What were the catch phrases from past decades used to lump together outlaw
nations?

Appreciate any help you can give

Barclay Walsh
Research Supervisor
DC Bureau- NY Times


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Wed Jun 21 20:05:32 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:05:32 -0400
Subject: umlauts
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.160532.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry Popik write to ADS-L:

<<<<<
    From LUCHOWS (there's an umlaut here, just like FRESHENS yogurt, to add
to that HAAGEN DAZS discussion) GERMAN COOKBOOK (1952) by Leonard Jan
Mitchell, pg. 190:
>>>>>

Not "just like" Freshens or Haagen Dazs, because the umlaut on the "u" in
"Luchows" (or "Luchow's", I'm not sure) is genuine. Even though everyone
pronounced it as if it were the name of a Chinese restaurant (/'lu ,tSauz/), it
was a family name, I'm pretty sure.

Hmm... Where's the name from, though, and how did it get there? That sure looks
like a Slavic ending on it. I'm going to cc: this to the American Name Society
list.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Wed Jun 21 21:10:47 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:10:47 -0500
Subject: orthographic -z
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.161047.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm looking into names and other words which use the _-z_ spelling in
place of standard orthography's _-s_:  BoyzIIMen, (pirated
soft-)warez, Limp Bizkit, etc.  If you know of such names/term, can
you send them to me?

Thank you!

Greg Pulliam
pulliam at iit.edu
--
-

Gregory J. Pulliam
Illinois Institute of Technology
Lewis Department of Humanities
Chicago, IL   60616
pulliam at iit.edu


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Jun 21 21:15:56 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:15:56 -0700
Subject: umlauts
In-Reply-To: <85256905.006E4418.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.141556.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There are lots of German family names ending in -ow.  Such names are
concentrated in the area of the former Prussia, and I assume they are a
remnant of the now extinct Slavic language that was once spoken in the area.

Peter Mc.

--On Wed, Jun 21, 2000 4:05 PM -0400 Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:


>
> Not "just like" Freshens or Haagen Dazs, because the umlaut on the "u" in
> "Luchows" (or "Luchow's", I'm not sure) is genuine. Even though everyone
> pronounced it as if it were the name of a Chinese restaurant (/'lu
> ,tSauz/), it was a family name, I'm pretty sure.
>
> Hmm... Where's the name from, though, and how did it get there? That sure
> looks like a Slavic ending on it. I'm going to cc: this to the American
> Name Society list.
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 21 21:55:01 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:55:01 EDT
Subject: Chicago; Beefing
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUN.2000.175501.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   A few random items here.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CHICAGO

   From the CHICAGO EVENING JOURNAL, 18 February 1886, pg. 2, col. 3:

   Foreign visitors at first call it Chick-ag-o; others call it Chy-cag-o;
and still others Chee-cay-go.  The "correct thing" is She-caw-go, and don't
you forget it.

   From the CHICAGO EVENING JOURNAL, 6 January 1886, pg. 2, col. 3:

   The "filosofical" _Tribune_ is more "thoroly" reformatory in its
"orthografy" than the most advanced "pedagog."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BEEF

   RHHDAS has "beef" (to cry out, talk loudly) from 1812 and 1866; "beef"
(complaint, argument) is from 1899.
   From the CHICAGO TIMES, 5 August 1885, pg. 4, col. 6:

   The cattlemen have not received much encouragement at Washington.  There
is no use of "beefing;" they will have to vacate.


From wade at PUBLIC.ZBPTT.SD.CN  Thu Jun 22 01:37:54 2000
From: wade at PUBLIC.ZBPTT.SD.CN (Xu Wei)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:37:54 +0800
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.093754.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

UNSUBSCRIBED
wade263 at 263.net
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From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 22 13:37:23 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:37:23 EDT
Subject: Secret languages
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.093723.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Anyone care to reply?
To: nberjaoui at hotmail.com
as well as perhaps ADS-L. - Allan Metcalf

-------------------------

Dear Sir,
I am seeking contact with professors that would like to cooperate in the
field of "Secret Languages" (Language Games).
Wishes,
Nasser BERJAOUI.

Nasser BERJAOUI (Pr. Dr. Dr.)
Secret Languages Seminar
Linguistics Division
Department of English
Faculty of Letters and Human Sciences
El-Jadida, 24000, Morocco.
Mobile P. : + 212 1 43 34 15.
Home P. : + 212 3 34 19 11.
Home F. : + 212 3 34 19 11.
E-mails : nberjaoui at hotmail.com /
nasserberjaoui at yahoo.com /
nberjaoui at usa.net
Home Address : 32, Cohen, K. B. D.
El-Jadida, 24000, Morocco.


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Jun 22 13:53:24 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:53:24 +0100
Subject: Secret languages
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.145324.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Sir,
I am seeking contact with professors that would like to cooperate in the
field of "Secret Languages" (Language Games).
Wishes,
Nasser BERJAOUI.

There have been several threads on this topic on the Linguist List.
Archives at linguistlist.org.

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Thu Jun 22 14:28:28 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:28:28 -0400
Subject: Dialect2000 conference notice
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.102828.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mike Salovesh posted this. Even his fix came through with some chaff, like
"Manfred G?rlach" (question mark for o-umlaut) and question marks for bullets.

Also of interest are these lines, in which I have replaced equal signs with hash
marks:

 #85 The second session will be devoted to statements by constituent
 spokespersons and activists seeking to show that there has been real
 or perceived discrimination of a kind that can be attributed to
 language of one sort or another, and with reference to the Good
 #46riday Agreement appealing to the new devolved government for

and these:

         The conference fees comprise #A325.00 registration and
 administrration (non-refundable) and #A375.00 participation (refundable

The escape mechanism disguises the actual costs (25.00 and 75.00 pounds
sterling), here and elsewhere in the notice. I assume that the double-r
represents an authentic burr!

-- Mark

>>>>>
Date:    Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:57:23 -0500
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dialect2000 conference notice

Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>
> Too bad the information wasn't sent in readable form. All I got was pages
> of meaningless numbers-and-letters.
>
>         Rudy

This may be a little better.  Enjoy!

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!

N.B.: The original text, in rich text format, leaned a lot on changing
fonts, boldface, and italics for organization and emphasis.  Since we
can't do that in plain ASCII text, I took the liberty of adding lots of
paragraph breaks for clarity.  Except for that, the following is
unchanged from the attachment you couldn't see in meaningful form:
<<<<<


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Jun 22 15:27:09 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:27:09 +0100
Subject: wsj article
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.162709.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 A while ago, people were talking about a Wall St Journal article re the
hirability of linguists.  I'd like to use that in an admissions day
talk--but cannot find a way to get to the article on-line without paying
for a subscription to WSJ.  Is it accessible for free somewhere?

Thanks in advance,
Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Thu Jun 22 16:36:19 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:36:19 -0400
Subject: wsj article
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.123619.0400.>

Lynn Murphy,

I happen to have a clipping faxed to me by my agents in New York. If you
don't get it free somewhere, I could fax it to you. I guess the faxing
charge would be negligible.

Best.
Tom Paikeday
===================

Lynne Murphy wrote:

>  A while ago, people were talking about a Wall St Journal article re the
> hirability of linguists.  I'd like to use that in an admissions day
> talk--but cannot find a way to get to the article on-line without paying
> for a subscription to WSJ.  Is it accessible for free somewhere?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Lynne
>
> Dr M Lynne Murphy
> Lecturer in Linguistics
> School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
> University of Sussex
> Brighton BN1 9QH


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Thu Jun 22 17:23:46 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:23:46 -0500
Subject: wsj article
In-Reply-To: <E1358qG-0000PN-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.122346.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Lynne,

I subscribe to the on-line version which is less than $6 a month.  I'd be
happy to try retrieving it for  you if I had more info as to where and when
it appeared.

Bob


At 04:27 PM 6/22/00 +0100, you wrote:
> A while ago, people were talking about a Wall St Journal article re the
>hirability of linguists.  I'd like to use that in an admissions day
>talk--but cannot find a way to get to the article on-line without paying
>for a subscription to WSJ.  Is it accessible for free somewhere?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Lynne
>
>Dr M Lynne Murphy
>Lecturer in Linguistics
>School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
>University of Sussex
>Brighton BN1 9QH
>
>


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 22 17:54:09 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:54:09 EDT
Subject: ADS Newsletter 32.2
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.135409.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At long last, the "May" newsletter of the American Dialect Society is at the
printer. It will go out by first-class mail to ADS members early next week.

I apologize for the delay. It wasn't intentional, but it did allow me to add
seven pages of memorial tribute to Fred Cassidy.

You don't have to wait to get your copy in the mail. Grant Barrett has posted
it on the ADS website, where you can download it using the free Adobe
Acrobat. The address, you know, is

http://www.americandialect.org/

- Allan Metcalf


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 22 18:38:02 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:38:02 -0400
Subject: Reference Proposals for Yale Univ. Press
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.143802.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am a consultant on reference publishing to Yale University Press.  The
Press is interested in expanding its reference publishing program, and I
would welcome suggestions of reference works of high quality for YUP to
consider acquiring.  I would discuss particularly promising ideas with the
Press, after which they might invite submission of a proposal.

In addition to hearing from prospective authors/editors, I would be
interested in hearing from others who have suggestions of needed reference
works to be compiled by someone other than themselves.

Fred Shapiro

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Thu Jun 22 19:44:26 2000
From: madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:44:26 -0700
Subject: wsj article
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000622122346.007d0b00@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.124426.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I subscribe to the on-line version which is less than $6 a month.  I'd be
> happy to try retrieving it for  you if I had more info as to where and when
> it appeared.

this is the article she wants.  part of it was posted on on another list.

May 30, 2000

Tech Center

No Longer Just Eggheads,
Linguists Leap to the Net


By DANIEL GOLDEN

sylvia swift
madonna at socrates.berkeley.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 23 00:46:58 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:46:58 -0400
Subject: Data Haven; Web Bug
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.204658.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DATA HAVEN

"Haven.  I'm in haven."
--Fred Astaire (sort of)

   A tiny platform off the coast of England is the "Principality of Sealand."  On June 5, 2000, Sealand and Havenco Ltd. announced the "world's first real data haven."
   There are 39 hits for this story, all after June 5, 2000.  Dow Jones had 420 hits for "data haven," but "data haven't" accounts for a lot of the hits.
   From the GLOBE AND MAIL, 4 July 1981, pg. B18:

   Use of a negative sales tax could create a "data haven" for hundreds of foreign multi-nationals, with the accompanying increase in the number of Canadian jobs.

   Maybe we can write to "Sealanders" and ask how they pronounce "data."

--------------------------------------------------------
WEB BUG

   Another "bug" hit, FWIW.
   Today's (6-22-2000) WALL STREET JOURNAL has "Clinton Tells Drug Office to Stop Using 'Web Bug'" on pg. B13, col. 2:

   The White House ordered its Office of National Drug Control Policy to stop using a secretive technique that could track and identify visitors to its antidrug Internet site for children. (...) A spokesman for the drug policy office, Donald Maple, acknowledged use of the technology, known as a "web bug," but said no personal information was collected about visitors.
   (Col.3--ed.) When people visited the site, freevibe.com, their browser software loaded without warning an invisible image retrieved from Doubleclick computers.  This process (Col.4--ed.) was recorded by Doubleclick and permitted the company to implant a small data file called a "cookie" to identify each visitor, or it allowed Doubleclick to read an identifier that it had placed previously with visitors to the drug site or elsewhere.


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 23 01:49:21 2000
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:49:21 -0400
Subject: Data Haven; Web Bug
In-Reply-To: <200006230046.UAA25722@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.214921.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I believe the term "data haven" was coined by cyberpunk sci-fi author Bruce
Sterling in his 1989 book _Islands in the Net_. This very prescient (but
rather clumsily-written) book foresaw that the "Internet reads censorship as
damage and routes around it" (to steal a phrase from cryptographer John
Gilmore). I.e., if a country outlaws some form of activity on the Net, that
activity will simply move offshore.

When I was researching a piece for the Industry Standard on the online porn
biz, one porn provider told me that if the Communications Decency Act had
been withheld, he and many other providers already had servers outside the
U.S., ready to go. "With the touch of a button," he told me, "all of our
operations would have move offshore."

> From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:46:58 -0400
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Data Haven; Web Bug
>
> DATA HAVEN
>
> "Haven.  I'm in haven."
> --Fred Astaire (sort of)
>
> A tiny platform off the coast of England is the "Principality of Sealand."  On
> June 5, 2000, Sealand and Havenco Ltd. announced the "world's first real data
> haven."
> There are 39 hits for this story, all after June 5, 2000.  Dow Jones had 420
> hits for "data haven," but "data haven't" accounts for a lot of the hits.
> From the GLOBE AND MAIL, 4 July 1981, pg. B18:
>
> Use of a negative sales tax could create a "data haven" for hundreds of
> foreign multi-nationals, with the accompanying increase in the number of
> Canadian jobs.
>
> Maybe we can write to "Sealanders" and ask how they pronounce "data."
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> WEB BUG
>
> Another "bug" hit, FWIW.
> Today's (6-22-2000) WALL STREET JOURNAL has "Clinton Tells Drug Office to Stop
> Using 'Web Bug'" on pg. B13, col. 2:
>
> The White House ordered its Office of National Drug Control Policy to stop
> using a secretive technique that could track and identify visitors to its
> antidrug Internet site for children. (...) A spokesman for the drug policy
> office, Donald Maple, acknowledged use of the technology, known as a "web
> bug," but said no personal information was collected about visitors.
> (Col.3--ed.) When people visited the site, freevibe.com, their browser
> software loaded without warning an invisible image retrieved from Doubleclick
> computers.  This process (Col.4--ed.) was recorded by Doubleclick and
> permitted the company to implant a small data file called a "cookie" to
> identify each visitor, or it allowed Doubleclick to read an identifier that it
> had placed previously with visitors to the drug site or elsewhere.
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 23 02:05:11 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:05:11 -0400
Subject: Devil's Food; Bluffin
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.220511.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DEVIL'S FOOD

   Here's the Devil that I promised.  Jesse Sheidlower wants publishing info--the devil's in the details.
   From THE CAPITOL COOK BOOK: A SELECTION OF TESTED RECIPES (1899) by The Ladies of Albert Sidney Johnson Chapter, Daughters of the Confederacy, compiled by Mrs. E. G. Myers (Austin, Texas), Von Boeckmann, Schutze & Company, Printers, pg. 123:

   _DEVIL'S FOOD._
One-half cup of butter.
Two cups of light brown sugar.
One-half cup of sour cream.
Two eggs.
Three cups of sifted flour.
One ounce of chocolate dissolved in one-quarter of boiling water; mix in batter.
One level teaspoonful of soda, mixed in sour cream.
Bake in three layers.
Filling: Two cups of brown sugar, 3/4 cup of sweet milk, butter the size of an egg.  Put on stove and stir till it comes to a boil, take off, whip till cool, and flavor with vanilla.
MRS. GEORGE WALLING.

   _DEVIL'S FOOD._
One half-cup of butter.
One cup of sugar.
One cup of milk.
Two and one-half cups of flour.
Two teaspoonfuls of baking powder.
One whole egg and one yolk.
One teaspoonful of vanilla.
One-half a cake bitter chocolate.
One cup of sugar.
One=half cup of milk.
Yolk of 1 egg.
Put this in a pan and set on the back of the stove; heat until chcolate is melted.  DO not boil.  Add to batter.  Bake in layers, and put together with white frosting.
MISS ELLA BEDELL

--------------------------------------------------------
BLUFFIN

   Blimpies serves a "Bluffin," which is an egg, ham, and cheese sandwich on an English muffin.  I didn't see a "TM" by it.  A Dow Jones check shows only 7 "Blimpies" hits--from about 1990.


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Fri Jun 23 03:01:28 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:01:28 -0500
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.220128.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I need to come up with a solid dozen pairs of the soda/pop, bag/sack,
or bureau/dresser variety for a DARE-related project for my summer
students.  The catch, of course, is that the pairs can only begin
with A-O, so the first two examples I gave above won't work--only the
last one will.

I'd appreciate either contributions or ideas about how to find these.

Thank you.
--
-
Greg

greg at pulliam.org
http://www.pulliam.org


From LJT777 at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 23 04:11:27 2000
From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:11:27 EDT
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.001127.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

cart/buggy?


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Fri Jun 23 04:18:42 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:18:42 -0700
Subject: DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <200006230403.VAA12947@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.211842.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greg--

        One (more than a pair) that comes to mind is pancakes/flapjacks/
batter cakes (old Southern usage). It's amazing how many others come after
"O" (see-saw/teeter-totter; mosquito hawk/snake doctor/devil's darning
needle).
        You might try croker (~crocus) sack/burlap bag; firefly/lightning
bug.

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 23 04:25:54 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:25:54 EDT
Subject: More Mexican food
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.002554.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CHIMECHANGAS

     From SUNSET magazine, November 1974, pg. 228:

Crisp, brown, delicious packages..._chimechangas_
   Chimechangas are a Mexican specialty from the state of Sonora, just south
of the border.  Like burritos, they're made by wrapping wheat flour tortillas
around a spicy meat or bean filling.  But, unlike burritos, chimechangas
(chee-mee-changas) are fried until they're golden brown and crisp.  (Recipe
follows--ed.)

   Sonora (Mexico) or Tucson (New Mexico)?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MEXICAN PIZZA

   From SUNSET magazine, June 1978, pg. 170:

Mexican pizza...bean and cheese, with taco sauce, sour cream
   Pizza takes on a new nationality when it's spiced with Mexcian seasonings
and topped with crunchy condiments.  (Recipe follows--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MEXICAN CHOCOLATE

   From the LADIES' HOME JOURNAL, April 1935, pg. 92, col. 2:

   The Mexican chocolate is made as follows: While the milk and chocolate are
boiling, sticks of cinnamon are added.  The hot liquid is then poured into a
tall pitcher and a slender pole of aromatic wood carved with grooves and
rings (see photograph above) is placed inside the pitcher and whirled between
the palms of the hands until the chocolate foams.  Small cup-size dashers are
also used.  If a _molinillo_ of aromatic wood like those used by the Mexicans
is not available, any small dasher may be susbstituted; the result, while not
quite what Mexican women get, will be delicious and different.

   From THE SAGA OF TEXAS COOKERY (The Encino Press, Austin, TX, 1973) by
Sarah Morgan, pg. 24:

   MEXICAN CHOCOLATE can be had in most Mexican food stores and in some
supermarkets.  If it is not obtainable, use the same amount of sweet
chocolate called for in the following recipe and add 1/2 teaspoon cinnamon to
the mixture.  Some of the best cacao, or cocoa, came from the state of
Tabasco in Mexico.  In the early days of our cookery the settlers would grind
the cacao bean on the metate.  A fire under the metate helped to take out the
grease from the bean and assured a smooth blend with other ingredients.
   TO MAKE about 6 servings: Grate 6 squares of Mexican chocolate and
dissolve in 1/2 cup hot milk.  Add 6 cups milk and boil for about 5 minutes.
Remove from the fire and cool.  Beat the yolks of 2 eggs and continue beating
while combining the two mixtures.  Beat all to a froth before serving.  Sugar
may be added according to taste.  Serve hot or cold.


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Fri Jun 23 06:47:55 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 23:47:55 -0700
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <p04310100b578826295ae@[24.131.175.239]>
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUN.2000.234755.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Monkey bars/Jungle Gym?
Firefly/Lightening Bug?
Sofa/Couch?

Rima


From paulfrank at WANADOO.FR  Fri Jun 23 07:03:24 2000
From: paulfrank at WANADOO.FR (Paul Frank)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:03:24 +0200
Subject: Thanks
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.090324.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm writing to thank you guys for this wonderful list. I've very much
enjoyed recent threads on written accents and American cooking. I hope I
won't be wasting bandwidth if I share with you something I just came across
in Letter's from the Editor: The New Yorker's Harold Ross, edited by Thomas
Kunkel (Modern Library, 2000). This excerpt of a letter to Dave Chasen,
dated September 20, 1937, shows that Ross was not just full of horse sense
when it came to language but also to food:

"I now wish earnestly to recall my earlier suggestions that you drop all the
nonsense of having a French, or half-French restaurant and French, or
half-French menu. I think your present situation is grotesque. You start out
to open a barbecue, then serve steaks, chops, etc., and go into a more or
less all-around American restaurant, then you get in the hand of a gang that
wants you to imitate '21' and a French chef and delusions of grandeur. I
think you veered wrong when you went in for the Continental stuff, which
isn't in your line. My advice is be yourself: stick to your barbecue stuff,
your steaks, chops, corned beef (which I don't see on the menu despite all
the dust-up in New York when you were here) and the Dinty Moore line of
stuff. Get out a homely American menu, serving top-notch stuff and let it go
at that.Your French spelling is fantastic. You have at least fifteen or
twenty errors in your French, which ought in itself to be evidence that
you'd do better to drop the French language and leave it lie. You, or your
printer, or your chef, or whoever got out this menu can make enough mistakes
in English without tackling the rich field of French. These errors are
apparent to me, and I'm no French scholar; for all I know you haven't got a
single God-damned French word right. You've dropped 'con Carne' from your
'Chili' in favor of a mess of pottage."

It's been said before, but it bears saying again. It's a real shame that
Ross is no longer editor of the New Yorker. In his own writing, Ross rarely
had to worry about written accents and other diacritical marks, because he
avoided pretentious language like the plague. Though I suspect that if his
"shock-proof, built-in shit detector" had been on all the time, he would not
have written "I now wish earnestly to recall..." When in doubt, split that
infinitive.

Paul
________________________________________
Paul Frank
Business, financial and legal translation
>From German, French, Chinese, Spanish,
Italian, Dutch and Portuguese into English
paulfrank at wanadoo.fr  - 74500 Thollon, France


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 23 10:27:47 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 06:27:47 -0400
Subject: Data Haven; Web Bug
In-Reply-To: <B5783A61.C38%garethb2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.062747.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Gareth Branwyn wrote:

> I believe the term "data haven" was coined by cyberpunk sci-fi author Bruce
> Sterling in his 1989 book _Islands in the Net_. This very prescient (but

No, Nexis has citations in the Economist from 1978 and 1981.

Fred Shapiro


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Fri Jun 23 11:32:59 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 07:32:59 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <p04310100b578826295ae@[24.131.175.239]>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.073259.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

lighting bug/firefly
andiron/firedog
hoagie/grinder (alas, sub, wedge, etc, are post - P)
corncake/johnnycake
dragon fly/darning neele, mosquito hawk (and numerous others)


check dare for the insanity behind mantel/mantelshelf/mantelpiece -- that
might be an extra credit problem.

check dare for the fatwood group, i forget what the other regional terms
are off the top of my head



--- Steve K.


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 23 12:51:10 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:51:10 EDT
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.085110.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

frosting : icing

See also the list of Regional Counterparts in Craig Carver's _American
Regional Dialects_ (Ann Arbor, U of Michigan Press 1987).

- Allan Metcalf


From ftaeditor at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 23 13:23:46 2000
From: ftaeditor at HOTMAIL.COM (FTA Editor)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:23:46 CDT
Subject: Letter to Dr. Laura
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.082346.CDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have
learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as
many
people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for
example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an
abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however,
regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing
odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the
odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus
21:7.
In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period
of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I
have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us.
A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can
you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly
states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination
(Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree.
Can you settle this?

Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect
in my sight. I have to admit that I wear prescription glasses. Does my
vision
have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can
help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
unchanging.

ED NOTE: If you'd like to send this letter to Dr. Laura you'll have to use
regular old mail. On her website it says "Dr. Laura does not have email." To
bad, here's her address, but don't just print out this page and mail the
above letter. Take the time to copy and paste the letter into something else
and add who it's from (who cares if it's a real name) then send it.

Dr. Laura Schlessinger
P.O. Box 8120
Van Nuys, CA 91409
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Jun 23 13:27:02 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:27:02 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.092702.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is Wentworth's American Dialect Dictionary Available.  It has examples
after O, I am sure.

Regards,
David

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Fri Jun 23 13:39:07 2000
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:39:07 -0400
Subject: Letter to Dr. Laura
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.093907.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Priceless! (For everything else, there's Mastercard)

Bob

FTA Editor wrote:
>
> Dear Dr. Laura:
>
> Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have
> learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as
> many
> people as I can.


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Jun 23 13:39:08 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:39:08 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.093908.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Try thingemajig ~ thingumbob .....

theirselves ~ theyselves

stoop ~ galley ~ porch  ~ piazza ~ veranda

Regards,
David

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From mssmith at BOONE.NET  Sat Jun 24 13:51:32 2000
From: mssmith at BOONE.NET (susan)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:51:32 -0400
Subject: Letter to Dr. Laura
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.095132.0400.>

Beautiful!
Susan Gilbert

----------
> From: FTA Editor <ftaeditor at HOTMAIL.COM>
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Letter to Dr. Laura
> Date: Friday, June 23, 2000 9:23 AM
>
> Dear Dr. Laura:
>
> Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have
> learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as
> many
> people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle,
for
> example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be
an
> abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however,
> regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
>
> When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing
> odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the
> odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?
>
> I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus
> 21:7.
> In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
>
> I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period
> of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I
tell? I
> have tried asking, but most women take offense.
>
> Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around
us.
> A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians.
Can
> you clarify?
>
> I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
clearly
> states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him
myself?
>
> A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination
> (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't
agree.
> Can you settle this?
>
> Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
> defect
> in my sight. I have to admit that I wear prescription glasses. Does my
> vision
> have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
>
> I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you
can
> help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
> unchanging.
>
> ED NOTE: If you'd like to send this letter to Dr. Laura you'll have to
use
> regular old mail. On her website it says "Dr. Laura does not have email."
To
> bad, here's her address, but don't just print out this page and mail the
> above letter. Take the time to copy and paste the letter into something
else
> and add who it's from (who cares if it's a real name) then send it.
>
> Dr. Laura Schlessinger
> P.O. Box 8120
> Van Nuys, CA 91409
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
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From BBriggs at LATTE.MEMPHIS.EDU  Fri Jun 23 14:32:33 2000
From: BBriggs at LATTE.MEMPHIS.EDU (Bonnie Osborn Briggs)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:32:33 -0500
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.093233.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about  -
behavior - deportment
closet - chiffarobe

Bonnie Briggs
The University of Memphis

Greg Pulliam wrote:
>
> I need to come up with a solid dozen pairs of the soda/pop, bag/sack,
> or bureau/dresser variety for a DARE-related project for my summer
> students.  The catch, of course, is that the pairs can only begin
> with A-O, so the first two examples I gave above won't work--only the
> last one will.
>
> I'd appreciate either contributions or ideas about how to find these.
>
> Thank you.
> --
> -
> Greg
>
> greg at pulliam.org
> http://www.pulliam.org


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Jun 23 14:46:35 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:46:35 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.104635.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

spud ~ tater

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From billk at ATLAS.UGA.EDU  Fri Jun 23 15:15:36 2000
From: billk at ATLAS.UGA.EDU (Bill Kretzschmar)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:15:36 -0400
Subject: ADS Web site changeove (ADS Newsletter 32.2)
In-Reply-To: <55.7a01aaa.2683acc1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.111536.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If you are trying to go to the ADS Web site (as Allan has suggested, if you
want to look at the latest ADS Newsletter), you may not find it just at the
moment!  We are trying to change the ADS Web site over to our Linguistic
Atlas server here in Athens (away from the previous server, which cost ADS
money to rent space), and I'm afraid that right now you'll get our
Linguistic Atlas site and not the ADS site if you click on
http://www.americandialect.org/.  We'll get this fixed ASAP.

Bill
                        *****
Bill Kretzschmar                        Professor of English and Linguistics
Dept. of English                        Phone: 706-542-2246
University of Georgia                   Fax:  706-583-0027
Athens, GA  30602-6205          Atlas Web Site: us.english.uga.edu


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Jun 23 15:29:27 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:29:27 -0700
Subject: Letter to Dr. Laura
In-Reply-To: <3953687B.126E9CC8@voyager.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.082927.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Fri, Jun 23, 2000 9:39 AM -0400 Bob Fitzke <fitzke at VOYAGER.NET> wrote:

> Priceless! (For everything else, there's Mastercard)

I agree--but can anyone point me to the Dr. Laura utterance that occasioned
this comeback?  I've heard of Dr. Laura and that's about it.

Peter Mc.

>
> Bob
>
> FTA Editor wrote:
>>
>> Dear Dr. Laura:
>>
>> Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have
>> learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as
>> many
>> people as I can.



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Fri Jun 23 15:34:28 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:34:28 -0700
Subject: Letter to Dr. Laura
In-Reply-To: <105705.3170737767@dhcp-218-202-118.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.083428.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

www.stopdrlaura.com is a Website dedicated exclusively towards pressuring
Paramount into giving up her show. They have a lot of quotes from her there.
They say she has pulled all such quotes off of her Website.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On
>
>I agree--but can anyone point me to the Dr. Laura utterance that occasioned
>this comeback?  I've heard of Dr. Laura and that's about it.
>
>Peter Mc.


From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU  Fri Jun 23 15:45:50 2000
From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:45:50 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <b8.7769915.2684b73e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.114550.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    I always thought that although these referred to the same basic kind
of thing, that frosting was the thick kind, like you would put on a
carrot cake, and icing was more of a glaze, like you would put on an
angel food cake.  Does anyone else make this differentiation?

Excerpts from mail: 23-Jun-100 Re: need DARE pairs by AAllan at AOL.COM
> frosting : icing

    And also, I thought that monkey bars were the things that you swing
across, but that a jungle gym was ANY structure of bars that kids climb
on.  Is this differentiation common either?

Excerpts from mail: 22-Jun-100 Re: need DARE pairs by Kim & Rima McKinzey at SLIP
>Monkey bars/Jungle Gym?

    Johanna

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Combination of the Discoveries of Einstein and Pythagoras:

        E = m c^2 = m(a^2 + b^2)


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Fri Jun 23 16:42:42 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:42:42 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <ktIsMiu00UwH0UpgA0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.124242.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Johanna N Franklin wrote:

>     I always thought that although these referred to the same basic kind
> of thing, that frosting was the thick kind, like you would put on a
> carrot cake, and icing was more of a glaze, like you would put on an
> angel food cake.  Does anyone else make this differentiation?

Nope -- I grew up exclusively with frosting. Icing probably entered by
idiolect first through the idiom "icing on the cake" and then later
through contact with speakers from other parts of the country.


--- Steve K.


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Fri Jun 23 16:50:09 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:50:09 -0500
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <b8.7769915.2684b73e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.115009.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you very much.

>frosting : icing
>
>See also the list of Regional Counterparts in Craig Carver's _American
>Regional Dialects_ (Ann Arbor, U of Michigan Press 1987).
>
>- Allan Metcalf

--
-
Greg

greg at pulliam.org
http://www.pulliam.org


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 23 16:49:09 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:49:09 EDT
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.124909.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Frosting is very decidedly Northern and Western. Icing is pretty decidedly
Southern and Midlands. See DARE!
- Allan Metcalf


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Fri Jun 23 16:53:13 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:53:13 -0500
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <msg49736.thr-18bda912.d8d2f@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.115313.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you, David.

>Try thingemajig ~ thingumbob .....
>
>theirselves ~ theyselves
>
>stoop ~ galley ~ porch  ~ piazza ~ veranda
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>David K. Barnhart, Editor
>The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
>barnhart at highlands.com
>www.highlands.com/Lexik
>
>"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
>Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813

--
-
Greg

greg at pulliam.org
http://www.pulliam.org


From ookpik at MINDSPRING.COM  Fri Jun 23 17:02:11 2000
From: ookpik at MINDSPRING.COM (J. Katherine Rossner)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:02:11 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <f7.3449cc.2684ef05@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.130211.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:49 PM 6/23/00 -0400, Allan Metcalf wrote:
>Frosting is very decidedly Northern and Western. Icing is pretty decidedly
>Southern and Midlands. See DARE!

Hm.  My growing-up was decidedly Northeastern (NYC until I was five,
suburbs until ten, a year in New England, then back to the city until I
left at eighteen), and it was _always_ "icing".

Katherine


--
Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche is chaunge
Withinne a thousand yere, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem, and yit they spake hem so.
        - Chaucer, "Troilus and Criseyde"


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Jun 23 17:30:54 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 18:30:54 +0100
Subject: 'sexy' scots accent
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.183054.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From the UK newspaper _The Guardian_ -- a story on the appeal of the
Scottish accent (and the question of whether such a thing exists):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/today/article/0,6729,335640,00.html

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From katie at LING.LING.ROCHESTER.EDU  Fri Jun 23 17:36:43 2000
From: katie at LING.LING.ROCHESTER.EDU (Katie Schack)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:36:43 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <ktIsMiu00UwH0UpgA0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.133643.0400.KATIE@LING.LING.ROCHESTER.EDU>

On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Johanna N Franklin wrote:

>     I always thought that although these referred to the same basic kind
> of thing, that frosting was the thick kind, like you would put on a
> carrot cake, and icing was more of a glaze, like you would put on an
> angel food cake.  Does anyone else make this differentiation?
>

I make this same distinction mentally, at least, although I'm not sure
where I acquired it from.  I think growing up I called everything we made
either frosting or glaze, but then again we didn't ever put anything in
the glaze category on cakes or cookies, which are the things that in my
mind one could potentially put icing on.

As long as I'm here, how about the pair sore/lame (as in, how to describe
how you feel after exercising too much)?  That is, if we're venturing past
the O's.

Katie


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Fri Jun 23 18:30:32 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:30:32 +0100
Subject: 'sexy' scots accent
In-Reply-To: <E135XFZ-0000mT-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.193032.0100.AARON@LING.ED.AC.UK>

On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Lynne Murphy wrote:

}>From the UK newspaper _The Guardian_ -- a story on the appeal of the
}Scottish accent (and the question of whether such a thing exists):
}
}http://www.guardian.co.uk/today/article/0,6729,335640,00.html

Why do you think I'm doing my PhD here?!?!  :-)

Just because a national variety has a lot of regional variation and does
not have a centralised standard, does not mean that "There is no such
thing as the Scottish accent."  North America doesn't have a centralised
standard, yet folks here can easily point out somebody from there. Both
dialects (is it safe to use the word this time, Rudy?) with all of
their regional varieties have a respective common core.

Having said that, there are two standards in Scotland.  One _is_
centralised: RP.  The other has more regional variation, but there is a
common core of phonology.  There's also influence from Scots that varies
with regional variety and social variety.

Am I getting too upset at a non-linguist trying to describe language in
non-technical terms?

The accent attributed to Edinburgh is usually associated with one
particular (er, posh) neighbo(u)rhood of the city.  Glaswegians tend to
associate that variety (and all of the social baggage attached to it) to
all of Edinburgh.  The neighborhood is called Morningside.  That's also
the name of a very rough neighborhood where I grew up, and I just can't
shake some of the fear attached to the name.

--Aaron

________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                  Departments of English Language and
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron       Theoretical & Applied  Linguistics

"MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Jun 23 19:32:25 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:32:25 -0700
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.123225.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Steve K." wrote:
>
> dragon fly/darning neele, mosquito hawk (and numerous others)

A dragon fly and a mosquito hawk are 2 different critters in my vocabulary.
Darning needles are a particular type of dragonfly. Interestingly enough, my
husband calls mosquito hawks "daddy long-legs", and doesn't know about the
spider by the same name.  Clearly he has never been in a latrine in a scout camp
in the Texas woods...

The frosting/icing pair was discussed on this list before, I believe.

As for bureau/dresser, I would add chest-of-drawers.

Andrea
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Kid" by Aardman Animation


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Fri Jun 23 19:46:58 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:46:58 -0500
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.144658.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Several people have asked, so I'm writing to pass along my planned
project assignment for my summer students.

The class:  "The American English Language."  A sort of hybrid of
History of the English Language and American Dialects.  It runs 8
weeks--3 hours/day, 2 days/week.  We have spent June with Barber's
_The English Language: A Historical Introduction_.  We will spend
July with Wolfram and Schilling-Estes' _American English_.  It's a
junior-level class, but of course has sophomores and seniors in it,
too.  About half the class is American and half international.

The project:  From a list of DARE pairs, students choose a pair, then
use DARE and its very helpful website to write up a 3-4 page overview
of the terms and the people who use them.  Next, find the survey
question/s used to elicit these terms, and ask a specific number of
people (what do you ADSers think--5?  10?  15?) the same question.
Record demographic, ethnic and geographical (like where they were
born/raised/etc.) information for these respondents as well as their
answers to the question.  Write up a 3-4 page account of your
findings.

Thanks to Don Lance for helping me figure this out.  I'm also open to
any suggestions folks might have, especially if you have done
something like this yourself and know where the pitfalls are.

Here is the tentative list of "pairs" I am working with--I appreciate
all contributions.  Remember, all pair members must begin with the
letters A-O.  I'm aware of pairs such as couch/davenport, but since
there's another major term in that trio--sofa--that we can't access
yet, I'm not going to include it.  I'm considering removing the
hoagie group for this reason--sub and po'boy can't come into the
picture yet.  I have 11 students, so I think this list will suffice,
but feel free to comment on these or suggest others.

Again, thanks to all who contributed!

1. firefly/lightning bug
2. lunch/dinner
3. hoagie/hero/grinder
4. eaves/gutter
5. bureau/dresser
6. burlap bag/gunny sack/croker sack
7. green pepper/bell pepper/mango
8. daddy longlegs/granddaddy longlegs
9. dirt dauber/mud dauber/mud wasp
10. beetle/june bug
11. footstool/hassock/ottoman
12. crawfish/crawdad/crayfish
13. casserole/hot dish/covered dish
14. flat screwdriver/flat-head screwdriver
15. adjustable wrench/monkey wrench
16. credenza/bookcase
17. brush hook/Kaiser blade
18. creek/crick
19. egg cream/frappe/milkshake/malted, etc.
20. monkey bars/jungle gym
21. (grocery) cart/buggy
22. andiron/firedog
23. dragon fly/darning needle/mosquito hawk
24. frosting/icing


--
-
Greg

greg at pulliam.org
http://www.pulliam.org
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From stevek at SHORE.NET  Fri Jun 23 19:48:12 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:48:12 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <3953BB49.A2E2A4F@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.154812.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, A. Vine wrote:

> A dragon fly and a mosquito hawk are 2 different critters in my vocabulary.

Oops, I didn't mean to imply that all senses of all those words were
synonymous in all cases. "Mudpuppy" is a fun word that means different
things to different people and in some cases overlaps with other words for
the same species, and different words with other species, per DARE. This
happens a lot with critters and plants.

--- Steve K.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Jun 23 20:46:53 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:46:53 -0700
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.134653.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had forgotten about the crawdad triplet, and I must admit I can't imagine
anyone calling a bell/green pepper a "mango" - what on Earth would they call a
real mango?
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Kid" by Aardman Animation


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Fri Jun 23 21:49:10 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:49:10 -0500
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.164910.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David wrote:
> stoop ~ galley ~ porch  ~ piazza ~ veranda

I'm getting in late on the game and read down a bit farther in the
mail since I felt sure that most of my potential suggestions had
already been mentioned (and they have been -- pairs like lightning
bug and firefly).  One of many pairs that popped into my head
of words that didn't meet the o-or-earlier requirement (e.g.,
redbug/chigger) was porch/gallery.  I'm interested to see that
David lists galley but not gallery.  Is that a typo, or do some
people say "galley" for porch/gallery?

   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Fri Jun 23 21:58:18 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:58:18 -0500
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.165818.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Steve wrote:
> Nope -- I grew up exclusively with frosting. Icing probably entered by
> idiolect first through the idiom "icing on the cake" and then later
> through contact with speakers from other parts of the country.

And I grew up exclusively with icing.  I think I first became aware
of "frosting" from seeing it written on cans or boxes in grocery
stores.  Sort of like cans and frozen bags in grocery stores never
say "English peas."  You just can't trust packages and cans, can you.
They talk funny.
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Fri Jun 23 21:53:54 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:53:54 -0500
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.165354.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bonnie:
> closet - chiffarobe

And don't forget armoire.  I don't think of armoire and chifforobe
as being parallel with closet, though -- wardrobe, but not closet.
Does anybody call a free-standing piece of furniture of that kind a
closet?
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Fri Jun 23 22:04:05 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:04:05 -0500
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.170405.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> 22. andiron/firedog

I was surprised in a class last semester when I mentioned something
about andirons and firedogs and *nobody* in the class had ever heard
either term.
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Fri Jun 23 22:05:53 2000
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:05:53 -0700
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <200006232153.QAA13552@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.150553.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Same here. Armoire, chiffarobe and wardrobe are pieces of furniture, a
closet isn't.
And, for me, frosting is thick and not opaque, icing is thinner and
slighly opaque and a glaze is very thin and opaque or even transparent.
Even though frosting is common here, the phrase is still "the icing on the
cake."

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Natalie Maynor wrote:

> Bonnie:
> > closet - chiffarobe
>
> And don't forget armoire.  I don't think of armoire and chifforobe
> as being parallel with closet, though -- wardrobe, but not closet.
> Does anybody call a free-standing piece of furniture of that kind a
> closet?
>    --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)
>


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Jun 23 22:22:16 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:22:16 -0700
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.152216.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Natalie Maynor wrote:
>
> > 22. andiron/firedog
>
> I was surprised in a class last semester when I mentioned something
> about andirons and firedogs and *nobody* in the class had ever heard
> either term.
>    --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)

I was looking for andirons for my condo fireplace about 14 years ago in
Connecticut.  As the fireplace was shallow, I was very concerned with the length
of the andirons.  Someone advertised some used andirons in the company paper, so
I called her up and asked her how long they were.  She couldn't understand why
that made a difference so I told her how shallow my fireplace was.  Turned out
she had fireplace tools, and had no idea what an andiron was.


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Sat Jun 24 00:16:19 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:16:19 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <200006232158.QAA13588@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.201619.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Natalie Maynor wrote:

> And I grew up exclusively with icing.

My favorite DARE split is between lightning bug/firefly, where firefly is
predominant in the northern tier of states (basically WA ---> ME),
instead of one of the regional clumps that dialectal items often occur
in. It's neat when DARE backs up your idiolect--I am solidly in the
firefly camp.

--- Steve K.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Jun 24 03:01:33 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:01:33 -0600
Subject: shoot the moon
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.210133.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I have received a query about the  gambling expression "shoot the moon"
(go for broke, shoot the works).   Would anyone know its origin?

    Is it perhaps a blend of "shoot for the moon" and "shoot the works"?

----Gerald Cohen



gcohen at umr.edu


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Sat Jun 24 03:29:05 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 22:29:05 -0500
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.222905.0500.>

You might leave in some of the terms with >o words and ask them to add information they
get in their interviews on these >o words and have them speculate about what might be in
the next volume of DARE.  I assume you'll ask the students to get other (quasi-)synonyms
in their interviews.

DMLance

Greg Pulliam wrote:

> Several people have asked, so I'm writing to pass along my planned project assignment
> for my summer students. The class:  "The American English Language."  A sort of hybrid
> of History of the English Language and American Dialects.  It runs 8 weeks--3 hours/day,
> 2 days/week.  We have spent June with Barber's _The English Language: A Historical
> Introduction_.  We will spend July with Wolfram and Schilling-Estes' _American
> English_.  It's a junior-level class, but of course has sophomores and seniors in it,
> too.  About half the class is American and half international. The project:  From a list
> of DARE pairs, students choose a pair, then use DARE and its very helpful website to
> write up a 3-4 page overview of the terms and the people who use them.  Next, find the
> survey question/s used to elicit these terms, and ask a specific number of people (what
> do you ADSers think--5?  10?  15?) the same question.  Record demographic, ethnic and
> geographical (like where they were born/raised/etc.) information for these respondents
> as well as their answers to the question.  Write up a 3-4 page account of your
> findings. Thanks to Don Lance for helping me figure this out.  I'm also open to any
> suggestions folks might have, especially if you have done something like this yourself
> and know where the pitfalls are. Here is the tentative list of "pairs" I am working
> with--I appreciate all contributions.  Remember, all pair members must begin with the
> letters A-O.  I'm aware of pairs such as couch/davenport, but since there's another
> major term in that trio--sofa--that we can't access yet, I'm not going to include it.
> I'm considering removing the hoagie group for this reason--sub and po'boy can't come
> into the picture yet.  I have 11 students, so I think this list will suffice, but feel
> free to comment on these or suggest others. Again, thanks to all who contributed! 1.
> firefly/lightning bug2. lunch/dinner3. hoagie/hero/grinder4. eaves/gutter5.
> bureau/dresser6. burlap bag/gunny sack/croker sack7. green pepper/bell pepper/mango8.
> daddy longlegs/granddaddy longlegs9. dirt dauber/mud dauber/mud wasp10. beetle/june
> bug11. footstool/hassock/ottoman12. crawfish/crawdad/crayfish13. casserole/hot
> dish/covered dish14. flat screwdriver/flat-head screwdriver15. adjustable wrench/monkey
> wrench16. credenza/bookcase17. brush hook/Kaiser blade18. creek/crick19. egg
> cream/frappe/milkshake/malted, etc.20. monkey bars/jungle gym21. (grocery) cart/buggy22.
> andiron/firedog23. dragon fly/darning needle/mosquito hawk24. frosting/icing
>  --
> -
> Greg
>
> greg at pulliam.org
> http://www.pulliam.org
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From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Jun 24 05:19:19 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 22:19:19 -0700
Subject: Semantic distinctions between regional synonyms
In-Reply-To: <200006240359.UAA26424@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.221919.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Andrea,

        Since you grew up in the Houston area, you probably made a
distinction between mosquito hawks and snake doctors, too (the latter out
of bounds for Greg since it begins with S).  There is a general principle
that when people grow up along an isogloss boundary, hearing competing
usages (or in my case, growing up in the Valley, with a mixture of
immigrants), they will tend to either level them out, chosing one and
banishing the other, or will try to rationalize the difference by looking
for meaning differences to differentiate them and retain both. This is
neatly illustrated by Atwood's finding that along the mosquito hawk
(Coastal Southern)/snake doctor (South Midland) boundary in Texas,
speakers, having noted that there are big dragon flies and little dragon
flies, distinguished them by identifying snake doctors as larger than
mosquito hawks. In Georgia, along the same boundary, some speakers
reported that mosquito hawks were larger than snake doctors! This is one
of the best examples of this process I know. Other responses herein have
shown the same process for rationalizing frosting vs icing.
        I always have fun in my American English course asking people to
describe their use of "pail" vs "bucket". Responses vary all over the
place, especially size and material, which are sometimes reversed (little
pail vs big bucket, big pail vs little bucket; metal vs plastic [wood has
disappeared except in the quotation "the old oaken bucket", LAMSAS to the
contrary notwithstanding]). I also like to use this as an illustration of
the mantra "words don't have meaning, people do", and to show how we form
our own idiosyncratic theory of word meanings, and should never really
assume that our interlocutors have the same theory we do. It also accounts
neatly for the genesis of semantic change, as well as linguistic change in
general.
        Incidentally, the same principle applies to different
pronunciations, a nice example being the pronunciation of "greasy" with
/s/ or /z/ along the isogloss in northern Pennsylvania.

        Have fun, Greg, and thanks for the question.

        Rudy


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Sat Jun 24 06:21:46 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:21:46 -0700
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <msg49736.thr-18bda912.d8d2f@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.232146.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>stoop ~ galley ~ porch  ~ piazza ~ veranda

But those are all different - not different names for the same thing.

Rima


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Sat Jun 24 06:21:46 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:21:46 -0700
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <3953BB49.A2E2A4F@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUN.2000.232146.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>As for bureau/dresser, I would add chest-of-drawers.

Now who was it who told me their grandfather called this a "chestnut drawers"?

Rima


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 24 11:10:09 2000
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 04:10:09 -0700
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.041009.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've also heard "chester drawers."


--- Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm at SLIP.NET> wrote:
> >As for bureau/dresser, I would add
> chest-of-drawers.
>
> Now who was it who told me their grandfather called
> this a "chestnut drawers"?
>
> Rima


=====
Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English and Linguistics
and University Editor
Department of English
Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
Office:(757) 727-5437; FAX:(757) 727-5421;Home:(757)851-5773
e-mail:  mlee303 at yahoo.com   or   margaret.leee at hamptonu.edu

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Jun 24 11:32:38 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 07:32:38 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.073238.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU,Net writes:
> I'm interested to see that
>David lists galley but not gallery.  Is that a typo, or do some
>people say "galley" for porch/gallery?

  TYPO, my regrets.

Regards,
David


From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Sat Jun 24 12:55:56 2000
From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Lynn Irons)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 08:55:56 EDT
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <39542AF5.A98D9018@missouri.edu>; from "Donald M. Lance" at Jun
 23, 100 10:29 pm
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.085556.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greg, et al.

Some of the terms beyond o may be found in Kurath/s Word Geography, if
that work is available to your students.


As for A. Vine's comment about "mango" for pepper, where we call the
pepper a "mango" (and a darn good sweet pepper it is), we don't generally
eat that funny tropical fruit called a "mango," cause it don't grow here.

--

Virtually, Terry
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 24 13:10:40 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 06:10:40 -0700
Subject: shoot the moon
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.061040.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I learned "Shoot the moon", meaning taking all the
tricks, in the game of Hearts.


--- Gerald Cohen <gcohen at UMR.EDU> wrote:
>    I have received a query about the  gambling
> expression "shoot the moon"
> (go for broke, shoot the works).   Would anyone know
> its origin?
>
>     Is it perhaps a blend of "shoot for the moon"
> and "shoot the works"?
>
> ----Gerald Cohen
>
>
>
> gcohen at umr.edu


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Jun 24 15:03:01 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 08:03:01 -0700
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.080301.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CHIFFOROBE is often reshaped.  in second-hand furniture
stores (some really junk stores, others aspriring to antique
shoppe status) in towns across the u.s., i've seen them
labeled SHEFFER ROBE, SCHAFER ROBE, and SHIFFER ROBE.  (there
might have been other spellings; i wasn't taking notes.)

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Sat Jun 24 15:56:03 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:56:03 -0500
Subject: outdated metaphors
In-Reply-To: <000201bfdb82$506fd140$282b62ce@vneufeldt.m-w.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.105603.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had in mind those levers mounted on the floor that had the really big
round knobs.  The puny knobs on steering-wheel-mounted shifts make for very
weak metaphor in comparison.

And, BTW, I was dead serious about a joint article.

Bob

At 09:12 AM 6/21/00 -0400, Victoria Neufeldt wrote:
>Hey, what's outdated about gearshift levers?
>
>Victoria
>vneufeldt at m-w.com
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
>> Of Robert S. Wachal
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 5:07 PM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: outdated metaphors
>>
>>
>> Anyone interested in joining me to develop a publishable list of out-dated
>> metaphors,  especially those caused by the obsolescence of things
>> mechanical, e.g., "she could suck the knob off a gearshift lever."?
>>
>> Bob
>>
>
>


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Sat Jun 24 15:57:05 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:57:05 -0500
Subject: khakis/chinos
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.105705.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When did 'khakis' become 'chinos' and why?

Bob Wachal


From sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM  Sat Jun 24 16:08:27 2000
From: sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM (Chuck Borsos)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:08:27 -0700
Subject: need DARE pairs
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.090827.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, I have to admit that growing up in NE Ohio that we called 'em mangos,
or green peppers.  I never saw a "real mango" until I was in my early
twenties, and I was in Washington DC at the home of a Thai national.  When
I told him that we called the peppers "mangos", he just thought that was
stupid.  I don't recall hearing "bell pepper" until I got to California,
though my memory is not real clear about that.

Chuck Borsos
Santa Cruz, CA

>I had forgotten about the crawdad triplet, and I must admit I can't imagine
>anyone calling a bell/green pepper a "mango" - what on Earth would they call a
>real mango?
>--
>Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
>"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
>--From "Angry Kid" by Aardman Animation


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Sat Jun 24 16:29:03 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:29:03 +0100
Subject: khakis/chinos
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.172903.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
> When did 'khakis' become 'chinos' and why?
>
> Bob Wachal

For me, they were chinos before they were khakis (this I think is due to
age, not to the primacy of 'chinos).  Chinos were the big thing to have
when I was pre-adolescent in the late 70s.  They were not necessarily
khaki in color.  I had all sorts of colors--including bright yellow and
bright red (how embarrassing).

Looking in the AHD, it seems that chino refers to the kind of fabric,
whereas khaki refers to the color, so maybe that's why 'chinos' became
popular as a word--since the color range was expanded.

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From al at LOUISVILLE.EDU  Sat Jun 24 18:15:26 2000
From: al at LOUISVILLE.EDU (Al Futrell)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 13:15:26 -0500
Subject: shoot the moon
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.131526.0500.>

My experience with "shoot the moon" and "shoot the works" is that
'shoot the moon' refers to a poker wager in which
the gambler bets to win both high and low in a single hand.
'Shoot the works' refers to betting all of one's stake on one bet or hand.

I am not sure I understand what is 'blending' here.

Gerald Cohen wrote:

>    I have received a query about the  gambling expression "shoot the moon"
> (go for broke, shoot the works).   Would anyone know its origin?
>
>     Is it perhaps a blend of "shoot for the moon" and "shoot the works"?
>
> ----Gerald Cohen
>
> gcohen at umr.edu

--

Al Futrell, Ph.D. <al at louisville.edu>
University of Louisville, USA


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Sat Jun 24 19:49:23 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:49:23 -0400
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.154923.0400.>

I just had some mango and I have been eating it since childhood and I don't think
it's funny! You should try eating fruits that don't grow here.

Terry Lynn Irons wrote:

> we don't generally eat that funny tropical fruit called a "mango," cause it don't
> grow here.
>
> --
>
> Virtually, Terry
> (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
> Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
> Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
> Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
> (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 24 23:33:29 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:33:29 EDT
Subject: Knisch (1919)
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.193329.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Knish" is in the OED, cited from 1930.  John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF
AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK mentions this cite, but adds that "_Knish_ is a Yiddish
word (first in print in 1916)."  That citation is not given; this is a good
cite that reveals a possible 1906 date of "knish" origin.
   From THE MEDIATOR (microfilmed from 1917-1919; on the same reel as THE
JEWISH BAKERS' VOICE), 8 August 1919, pg. 12, col. 1:

_"K" In Knisch as in Pigs' Knuckles_
   It is pronounced, or, better, they are pronounced--k-nisches, the accent
being smeared imparitally over the k and the nisches, as in the word
k-nuckles, when used in connection with pigs' knuckles.
   Ask anybody in Rivington Street about knisches, and you will be steered
either to Max Green's polite dining-hall, in the basement of No. 150, or
Morris London's United Knisches Bakery, across the way, at No. 153.  It all
depends whether the person you pop the question to is pro-Green or
pro-London.  In any case, he, she, or it--meaning the young idea of Rivington
Street--is sure to be pro-knisches.  The East Side has gone clean crazy about
these knisches.
   Hence the great knisch war.
   As a conscientious gatherer of war news, your correspondent has to report
that he has visited both fronts--and rears--and that, so far as he is
concerned, may the best knisch win.  But which is the best knisch?  Ah-ha,
that's the question.
   Max Green says he's the inventor of the knisch.  Morris London says Max
isn't. (...)
   _The Knisch Commandments_
   And Max--what does he say?  Well, Max says simply that he is the
originator of the knisch, and points with pride--though doing so means
quitting the cash-register trench, hard by the gefuellte-fish counter, and
walking right out on the sidewalk, where one is exposed to the enemy's
fire--to the two-story sign done in Yiddish by Rosenthal, the well-known
black-and-red artist of Norfolk Street, which informs the public that the
undersigned, Max Green, is prepared to prove that he has faithfully observed
the "Ten Knisch Commandments."
   Before hearing what these Ten Commandments are, you should know that
whereas Max Green has been established in Rivington Street these last
thirteen years, Morris London, field-marshal of the United Knisch Bakery
forces, entered the campaign only a few weeks ago.  (Col. 2--ed.)  The exact
date was one week after the knisch first appeared on Max's counter as a
novelty in the eating line, at five cents per knisch.
   And this, as far as can be learned, was the sequence of events: Morris
opened his United Knisch Bakery across the street and advertised knisches at
three cents per.  Max met this challenge with a similar reduction.  Morris
bought a phonograph and advertised music with knisches.  Max retained the
services of a German band and hung up a sign reading, "Music Free Every
Evening."  Morris reinforced his staff with a ladies' orchestra and built a
platform for it in the back of his shop.  He also introduced what is
popularly known as "singink." (...) (Col. 3 continuation--ed.)
   But by this time your appetite is surely whetted to know what is it, a
knisch.  A strictly neutral investigation of knisches a la Max and knisches a
la Morris reveals much.  While, as all Rivington Street is convinced, one
knisch differeth from another in glory, not to say lusciousness and
perfection of workmanship, there are, speaking by and large, three recognized
types or species of knisch.  To wit, the potato knisch, the cheese knisch,
and the kasche knisch, or buckwheat knisch.  The potato knisch is head and
shoulders above the others in point of popularity.  Max and Morris both agree
on that.  They sell twice as many potato knisches as they do cheese and
kasche knishes combined.  But from the outside one knisch looks surprisingly
like another.  They all bear a strong resemblance to the dumplings that the
new cook tried to concoct before you heeded her request for the "proper
utensils."  And if you don't consider that sufficient recommendation, you
might be interested to know that Max says he disposes of 1,000 knisches every
Saturday and Sunday night, and that Morris, on hearing this, stated for
publication that he doled out 2,000.  The average daily consumption is said
to be 537. (...)

   I'll check out the personal/business names in the phone books and in the
New York Times Personal Name Index.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 24 23:33:27 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:33:27 EDT
Subject: Bagel (1928, 1929)
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.193327.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     "Bagel" is in the OED, cited from 1932.  David Shulman tells me that he
had submitted a 1918 cite, but I haven't seen it.
    THE JEWISH BAKERS' VOICE (half Yiddish, half English) began in 1927.

13 January 1928, THE JEWISH BAKERS' VOICE, "My Tour to Minneapolis & St.
Paul," pg. 11, col. 2:
   To make conditions still worse, there is one baker whose name I cannot
mention, baking bagels only.  Just because most of the bakers stopped buying
bagel (sic) from him, he reduces the prices of biscuits, cookies, doughnuts,
bismarks, cakes, bagel, butter-rolls, Vienna rolls, and cup cakes to 12 cents
per dozen, and a large pan bread to 6 cents.

24 February 1928, THE JEWISH BAKERS' VOICE, "My First Bakery in America
(Memories of a Baker)" by Joseph Edelstein, pg. 11, col. 2:
   On my way home I was stopped by a man, whom I knew as a bagel baker.
   "Can you bake bagels," he asked. (...)  Now, I want to say a few words
about this bagel baker.  He was a bagel baker at night, but by day he was a
banker. (...)  Well, I worked with the bagel-baker two weeks and he owed me
$24.

17 August 1928, THE JEWISH BAKERS' VOICE, pg. 14, col. 2:
   _Isaac Moskowitz Dies_
   Isaac Moskowitz, father of the Moskowitz Bros., bagel bakers and prominent
members of the organization, died Monday, August 11, in his home, 1515
Charlotte Street, Bronx.

1 March 1929, THE JEWISH BAKERS' VOICE, pg. 17, col. 1:
   _What is found in a Jewish Bakery_
   The breakfast crowd in a certain Jewish bakery began to come the other day
as usual around eight o'clock.  The customers found displayed along one wall
alone an assortment of breakfast rolls.  By count there were twelve different
varieties of rolls.  Among these were Vienna rolls, onion kuchen, mohn
kuchen, horns, small twists, egg bagel (sic), plain bagel (sic), and egg
rolls of various shapes and twists.  Besides these, there was also a white
bread of delicious quality.  Also, there were more than a dozen kinds of
breakfast cakes, including plain round buns, square buns, jelly and cheese
cakes, large mohn cakes, crullers and doughnuts, humintash for the holiday,
apple cake, and several others.  All were the best products of the baking
craft.  To top off the feast for the Jewish crowd, there was a fresh batch of
Jewish pure rye, heavy black pumpernick.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 25 00:36:20 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:36:20 -0700
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.173620.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

re MANGO 'bell/sweet pepper': i'm sure we've had this discussion
before, but it might have been some years ago.  in central ohio and
central illinois (and by interpolation, central indiana, though i
can't swear to it), at least up to about twenty years ago, plain ol'
MANGO was a pepper (it took me a while to get used to ordering mango
pizzas), and the tropical fruit (which i adore, messy though it is
to consume) is a FRUIT MANGO.

just the usual (material) markedness of the (conceptually or
experientially) marked item, as larry horn explained in the earlier
discussion.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 25 01:19:33 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:19:33 EDT
Subject: Chimichangas (1968, 1969)
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.211933.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     From THE AFICIONADO'S SOUTHWESTERN COOKING (University of New Mexico
Press, 1968) by Ronald Johnson, pg. 62 (under BURROS):

    _CHIMICHANGAS_
   Fry a burro in deep fat after it is rolled.  It changes the flavor
entirely and is well worth trying.  If you wish a sauce serve either Cold
Green Chile Sauce (see p. 98) or Jalapeno Sauce (see p. 101).

    From SOUTHWESTERN COOKING: NEW & OLD (University of New Mexico Press,
1985) by Ronald Johnson (a revised version of the above book):

Pg. 84:  _Chimichangas_
   These are simply burritos deep fried, and they can be assembled with any
filling you'd put in a burrito.  Since one doesn't have to work so quickly to
maintain a warm dish, they are more suitable to make at home for a
combination platter than are burritos.  For this reason the salsa is usually
omitted from the filling and then later spooned over the chimichanga.
    After you have rolled up the flour tortilla fix it with toothpicks.  Heat
oil to about 375 degrees in a deep fat fryer, then fry one at a time for
about a minute and a half, turning to brown both sides.  Drain on paper
towels and serve Fresh Salsa (p. 55), Guacamole (p. 219), sour cream, or Red
Chile Sauce (p. 51).
Pg. 85:  _Bean Chimichangas_  (Recipe follows--ed.)  Another delight for
vegetarians--and the rest of us too.

    From SOUTHWEST COOKERY, OR, AT HOME ON THE RANGE (Doubleday & Company,
Inc., Garden City, NY, 1969) by Richard Wormser:

Pg. 87:  In the upper Santa Cruz Valley, between Tucson and Nogales, they pat
or roll flour tortillas until they are 12 to 18 inches in diameter; it is
easy to read large type through them.
    Then they make _burritos_ as above, first folding down the top and bottom
of the tortillas to add strength.
    These are then deep-fried, and called Chimichangos, a word with
absolutely no meaning in any Indian or Spanish dialect that anyone ever heard
of.  The translation might be "thingumajigs," but the flavor is delicious.
Pg. 162:  _CHIMICHANGOS DULCES DE TUBAC_
(Sweet Thingumabobs from Tubac)
4 cups sifted white flour, all purpose
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
1/2 teaspoon cinnamon
1/2 cup lard
Water
Flour for dusting, butter for greasing hands
Lard for deep frying
Mix the three dry ingredients thoroughly; cut in the lard with a knife; add
enough water to make the dough slightly elastic--the amount of water seems to
vary with the climate.
Cut the dough into lumps about the size of an egg, and chill for half an hour.
Powder a bread board and massage your hands thoroughly with (Pg. 163--ed.)
butter.  Put a lump of dough on the board and pat it till it is as big in
diameter as the largest skillet you own or can borrow.
Put the skillet over a moderate heat, and warm it till a drop of water dances
and steams away.
Lay each tortilla in the skillet for a minute on each side; remove and stack
tortillas and set them aside.
FILLING:
1/4 cup granulated sugar
1/2 teaspoon grated lemon rind
2 cups stewed fruit, such as apricots or dried apples
1/4 cup unsalted butter
Lard for deep frying
Powdered sugar for dusting
Stir the sugar and lemon rind into the stewed fruit; bring to a boil and
allow to cool.
Fold each tortilla 2 inches down from the top and up from the bottom; spread
the fruit mixture from fold to fold about 2 inches wide and 2 inches in from
the right-hand edge; spread the butter for about an inch just in from the
fruit mixture.
Roll the tortilla from right to left around the fruit.
Heat the lard to 370 degrees F. and drop the chimichangos in one by one;
remove the same way as they turn the color of golden toast.
Drain on brown paper. sprinkle with powdered sugar, and serve hot.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 25 02:29:34 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:29:34 EDT
Subject: Between-the-Sheets (Brandy, Cointreau, Bacardi)
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUN.2000.222934.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    OED doesn't have Between-the-Sheets!
    Between-the-Sheets beats Sex-on-the-Beach anytime!!
    This is from MY 35 YEARS BEHIND BARS: MEMORIES AND ADVICE OF A BARTENDER,
INCLUDING A LIQUOR GUIDE (Exposition Press, NY, 1954) by Johnny Brooks (who
worked at the old Waldorf-Astoria, Rector's, Texas Guinan's, Jack Dempsey's,
the Stork Club, the House of Morgan, the Glass Hat of the Belmont Plaza
Hotel, the Gruenwald Hotel in New Orleans, et al.) :

Pg. 88 (INVENTING DRINKS):  In New Rochelle one year, I made up a concoction
which I called "between-the-sheets."  Later, I found that some house in
Alabama claimed to have served the same drink before I did.  I wrote to them,
and asked for some proof, but I never got an answer to my letter.  Well,
maybe they did have the same idea.  You hear of scientific discoveries being
made by men in diffferent parts of the world at the same time.  But I still
think I was the first to make between-the-sheets.

Pg. 129, col. 1:
BETWEEN THE SHEETS
1/3 brandy
1/3 Cointreau
1/3 Bacardi
Juice of 1/2 lemon
_Shake and strain into cocktail glass._

Pg. 110, col. 2:
THE BIG APPLE
1/2 applejack
1/4 creme de menthe (white)
1/4 absinthe
_Shake and strain into cocktail glass._

(The drink list is extensive, but DOES NOT have Bloody Mary, Margarita, Pina
Colada, Screwdriver, Moscow Mule, and others.)


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Sun Jun 25 07:18:07 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 02:18:07 -0500
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <200006250036.RAA20639@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.021807.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about garbanzos/chickpeas?
--
-
Greg

greg at pulliam.org
http://www.pulliam.org


From Ellen.Polsky at COLORADO.EDU  Sun Jun 25 07:49:14 2000
From: Ellen.Polsky at COLORADO.EDU (POLSKY ELLEN S)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 01:49:14 -0600
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <v01510101b57a8b81b0ad@[165.227.129.69]>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.014914.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about plate/platter/dish, as in "Can I make you a platter of food?"
(Philadelphia)

serving/helping

In my family, we say, "turn on the water" (heat water for tea)
(Philadelphia). This strikes my Maryland-born husband (who has spent most
of his life in Colorado) as bizarre.  He'd say "heat some water" or "put
the kettle on."

piecing (Western Kansas - obsolete?)/snacking



Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky at Colorado.EDU)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 25 15:04:49 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:04:49 -0400
Subject: shoot the moon
In-Reply-To: <3954FABE.CA79BDFF@louisville.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.110449.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:15 PM -0500 6/24/00, Al Futrell wrote:
>My experience with "shoot the moon" and "shoot the works" is that
>'shoot the moon' refers to a poker wager in which
>the gambler bets to win both high and low in a single hand.
>'Shoot the works' refers to betting all of one's stake on one bet or hand.
>
>I am not sure I understand what is 'blending' here.
>
In my poker circles, where a lot of high-low games are regularly played, no
one refers to attempting to win both halves of the pot (indicated by
placing two coins in one's hand during the "declaration" phase) as
'shooting the moon'.  It's officially 'going hi-lo' and more usually 'going
both ways' or 'swinging'. For me, 'shooting the moon' in cards only has the
association with attempting to take all the tricks at Hearts mentioned
earlier.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 25 15:25:32 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:25:32 -0400
Subject: "jukebox"
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.112532.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just came across the below item in the current (24 Jun 00) issue of Michael
Quinion's weekly "World Wide Words" e-column.  I find the story (based on
the OED version:  s.v. JUKE, 2) plausible enough, but the first cite (in
Time magazine) seems quite unlikely; the
first-cite-in-national-newsweeklies always seems to dissolve on closer
inspection. Anyone (Fred?  Barry?  Jerry?) have an earlier 'juke-box' cite
on you, or an amendment to the derivation?  It's a nice etymology for class
and I want to make sure it's not too far off-base.

larry

P.S.  The OED does offer one slightly earlier cite (1937, Florida Rev.) for
the obviously related 'jook organ'.


================================
Q. I've always been a word junkie and love finding sites like
yours. I've been looking for the origin of the word 'jukebox' for
some time. Do you have an answer? [Sue Katz]

A. Yes, but it requires some delving into creoles, West African
languages, and a bit of low-life.

Creoles are languages that arise spontaneously when people without
a tongue in common have to work and live together. The first stage
is a pidgin, a simplified amalgam of elements from the colliding
languages; a creole is a pidgin that has gone up in the world and
become a mother tongue. There are many examples in and around the
Americas, including several in the Caribbean, and (most relevantly
for your question) in the Sea Islands off the Carolinas, where
Gullah is spoken. This is a creole of English and several West
African languages that were brought in by slaves in the eighteenth
century.

In Gullah, there is a word 'jook' or 'joog', which means disorderly
or wicked. This comes from one of these West African languages,
either from Bambara 'dzugu', meaning wicked, or from Wolof 'dzug',
to live wickedly. (As you may guess, these languages are related.
Both are members of the Niger-Congo group; Wolof is in effect the
national language of Senegal, and is also spoken in Gambia; Bambara
is a dialect of Mandekan, the administrative language of the old
empire of Mali, now an official language of Mali and an important
trade language in the area.)

The Gullah word appeared in the Black English 'jook house' for a
disorderly house, often a combination of brothel, gaming parlour
and dance hall, sometimes just a shack off the road where you could
get a drink of moonshine, sometimes a tavern or roadhouse providing
music and the like. This was shortened back to 'jook' and is
recorded in this form from the 1930s, though - in the way of such
matters - it is almost certainly much older.

The jukebox was invented in the late 1930s to provide music in
those jooks that didn't have their own bands. The first recorded
appearance of the word was in - of all places - _Time_ magazine, in
1939: "Glenn Miller attributes his crescendo to the 'juke-box',
which retails recorded music at 5c a shot in bars, restaurants and
small roadside dance joints". It's gone up in price a bit since,
but next time you see one, think of the long linguistic journey
implied by its name.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 25 18:03:19 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:03:19 -0400
Subject: "jukebox"
In-Reply-To: <v04011700b57bd1bc7c47@[130.132.166.241]>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.140319.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 25 Jun 2000, Laurence Horn wrote:

> Just came across the below item in the current (24 Jun 00) issue of Michael
> Quinion's weekly "World Wide Words" e-column.  I find the story (based on
> the OED version:  s.v. JUKE, 2) plausible enough, but the first cite (in
> Time magazine) seems quite unlikely; the
> first-cite-in-national-newsweeklies always seems to dissolve on closer
> inspection. Anyone (Fred?  Barry?  Jerry?) have an earlier 'juke-box' cite

I don't know why a first citation in Time should seem so improbable to
Larry and Michael.  Time was renowned for its word-coinages in the 1920s
and 1930s, and probably introduced to mainstream usage many words coined
elsewhere.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 25 18:11:42 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:11:42 -0400
Subject: "jukebox"
In-Reply-To: <v04011700b57bd1bc7c47@[130.132.166.241]>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.141142.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I forgot to mention in my last message that there is a slightly earlier
citation for _jukebox_ in the Random House Historical Dictionary of
American Slang.  It's from ... Time magazine.  The third oldest known
citation is from ... Time magazine.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 25 19:24:58 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 15:24:58 -0400
Subject: "Margherita" Pizza
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.152458.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

JUKE

   I looked into this a while ago.  The citations in DARE and the RHHDAS are on the mark.  However, it'd be a nice excuse to visit Florida...

--------------------------------------------------------
"MARGHERITA" PIZZA

   Jesse wants to know if I have anything before 1983.  I copied this item years ago, but I couldn't find it again.  You'd just as soon find NUCLEAR SECRETS AT LOS ALAMOS than you'd find my work from a few years ago in my apartment.
   From Naples tourist board semi-official version, HISTORY OF THE PIZZA (Entre Provinciale Per Il Turismo--Napoli, 1956) by Roberto Minervini, pg. 21:

   _HOMAGE TO A QUEEN_
   The nineteenth century marks a second stage in the history of the pizza, as a new element was then introduced in its preparation; this was "mozzarelle," a soft buffalo cheese, which joined the tomato in a new variety, the "Margherita," an addition to the already many varieties.  It was thus called to celebrate a visit to Naples by King Umberto I's consort, Queen Margherita, who used to appreciate our superlative Neopolitan specialty.
   Raffaele Esposito was the inventor of "Margherita."  In 1889 an official of the Royal Establishment went expressly to his restaurant--the famous "pizzeria di Pietro" of which no more need be said, to enquire whether he could go immediately to the Capodimonte Royal Palace (a Royal residence in which, as can be seen, the traditional custom was punctually observed throughout the years), to give his Sovereigns a deomonstration of his exceptional ability.  It is superfluous to say that he felt exceedingly pleased at the honour and went out of his way to do his best on that fortunate occasion: having tasted the various pizzas prepared by the "Maestro," cooked as they were to perfection, exquisitely flavoured, their "cornicioni" (boarders) very thin, the Queen expressed her preference for the pizza garnished with mozzarella (Pg. 22--ed.) and tomato, the personal "creation" of Esposito which from that way was called, as we have said before, the "Margherita."
   The Queen's appreciation found its official expression in the following letter written on a Savoy-crested sheet:
THE HOUSE OF H.M.
INSPECTOR OF COMESTIBLES
Capodimonte, 11th June 1889.
Most Excellent Sig. RAFFAELE ESPOSITO--Naples.
   I confirm that the three varieties of pizza which you prepared for Her Majesty the Queen were found to be excellent.
   I remain,
   Yours faithfully,
Galli Camillo
Head of the Table Services of the Royal Establishment.

Pg. 35:  THE PIZZAS
PIZZA ALLA MARINARA
   Mince a piece of garlic very finely, distribute on _basic pettola_, sprinkle with marjoram and spread over with two table spoonfuls of tomato.
PIZZA "MARGHERITA"
   Instead of garlic and marjoram, garnish with a few thin slices of mozzarella, basil leaves, a tablespoonful of tomato and a small pinch of grated cheese.
PIZZA "QUATTRO STAGIONI"...
PIZZA "COSACCA"...
PIZZA "ROMANA...
(Pg. 36)
PIZZA "FRATTESE"...
PIZZA "PASQUALINO"...
PIZZA "BELLANAPOLI"...
PIZZA AL SEGRETO...
(Pg. 37)
PIZZA WITH MUSHROOMS
PIZZA WITH ANCHOVIES
PIZZA WITH "CECENIELLE"...
PIZZA WITH LARD AND CHEESE
PIZZA PORTA SAN GENNARO


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 25 23:27:01 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:27:01 EDT
Subject: New Girl Network; Paper of Record
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.192701.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NEW GIRL NETWORK (continued)

     "The New Girl Network: A Power System for The Future" by Jane Wilson
starts on page 47 of NEW YORK magazine, 4 April 1977.  SAVVY magazine was
being introduced and promoted.  From pg. 47, col. 1:

     What is needed now is a way to galvanize progress, and the "new girls"
network is proving itself an effective means of ending isolation and
passivity among ambitious women.  The "old boys" have used this tool for
getting things done since the first hunting parties set out from the caves,
and for them one of its chief benefits has always been access to information.

     From pg. 48, col. 1:

     _NGN: IT REALLY WORKS_
     Some women in business have always hung out with other women in
business, but only in the last five or six years have there been enough of
them at locations other than the water cooler to make the phenomenon worthy
of a name: the new girl network.  It's impossible to say how large that
network is, since its members don't all know one another more than all the
men on the old boy network do.  But there are a lot of them, and they know
who they are. (...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PAPER OF RECORD

"It was in the Paper of Record."
--Parks Department employee rationalizing plagiarism of my work, March 2000.

     The cover story in NEW YORK magazine, 18 July 1977:

_No News Is Bad News_
_At the New York Times_
Why Your Newspaper of Record Is Getting Bigger, Not Better.

     Again in NEW YORK, 22 August 1977, pg. 7, col. 1:  "A mocked-up front
page of the 'newspaper of record' with that famous slogan 'All the News
That's Fit to Print' appeared on page 22."
     I don't remember "newspaper of record" in that 1950s HARPER'S article
that used "Old Grey Lady."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 26 00:32:51 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:32:51 -0400
Subject: "jukebox"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10006251351560.19709-100000@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.203251.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:03 PM -0400 6/25/00, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>On Sun, 25 Jun 2000, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>> Just came across the below item in the current (24 Jun 00) issue of Michael
>> Quinion's weekly "World Wide Words" e-column.  I find the story (based on
>> the OED version:  s.v. JUKE, 2) plausible enough, but the first cite (in
>> Time magazine) seems quite unlikely; the
>> first-cite-in-national-newsweeklies always seems to dissolve on closer
>> inspection. Anyone (Fred?  Barry?  Jerry?) have an earlier 'juke-box' cite
>
>I don't know why a first citation in Time should seem so improbable to
>Larry and Michael.  Time was renowned for its word-coinages in the 1920s
>and 1930s, and probably introduced to mainstream usage many words coined
>elsewhere.
>
I don't want to attribute a finding of unlikelihood to Michael Quinion, who
expressed some surprise but no paticular skepticism about Time representing
the first cite for "juke box".  From the context of the '37 cite, it struck
me as more plausible that Time was picking up on a usage already extant for
some time (at least a couple of years) in the jook joints of the demimonde
before it would have crossed the paths of the Glenn Millers and national
newsweeklies.  I could be wrong in this intuition, of course.  And there's
a difference between locating a first cite and locating a first
introduction-to-mainstream-usage; I'm quite willing to believe that Time
was responsible for the latter.

larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 26 03:10:13 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:10:13 EDT
Subject: "jukebox"
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.231013.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Again, see the RHHDAS H-O, pp. 323-324 ("juke" and "jukebox" and "juke
organ") and DARE I-O, pp. 163-164 ("jook" ).
   I had found a "juke box" around the same time period in VARIETY.
   The 1939 Barry Buchanan unpublished ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE ENTERTAINMENT
WORLD might have "jukebox," but I haven't finished copying it.


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Mon Jun 26 06:30:35 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:30:35 -0700
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <p04310100b57b6268583e@[24.29.210.216]>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUN.2000.233035.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>How about garbanzos/chickpeas?

And ceci

And carob/St. John's bread - ah, but that begins with an S.

Rima


From HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU  Mon Jun 26 12:06:35 2000
From: HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:06:35 -0500
Subject: GEnome or geNOME
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.070635.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This morning I heard Carl Kassel, reporting on the nearly completed mapping of the human genome, stress the ultima.  In other reports and interviews I've heard both pronunciations, from both reporters and researchers.  I checked the AHD, the only dictionary I have that's recent enough to list the word, and it gives only penultimate stress, although it does list a second spelling without the final -e and pronounced with a short <o>.  Where is the final-stressed pronunciation coming from?  I can imagine explanations, like an ersatz-French hypercorrection, but none of them sounds particularly likely.

Herb Stahlke
Ball State University


From derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM  Mon Jun 26 12:29:01 2000
From: derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM (Derrick Chapman)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:29:01 -0400
Subject: GEnome or geNOME
In-Reply-To: <s95700ff.085@gw.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.082901.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We relate new words to familiar words, sometimes pairing them incorrectly
(which leads to folk etymologies and common "mis"-pronunciations
overwhelming the scholarly "correct" pronunciations).

Gen- as the original root, yielding gen-ET-ics (short e in the first and
second syllables) probably leads to the gen-O-type and gen-OME
pronunciations; but the public awareness of GENE (with the long e)probably
leads to GE-no-type and GE-nome (long e's and stress in first syllables).

One day we may have to acquiesce to GEE-ne-tics.  GEE-whiz!


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Herb Stahlke
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 8:07 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: GEnome or geNOME


This morning I heard Carl Kassel, reporting on the nearly completed mapping
of the human genome, stress the ultima.  In other reports and interviews
I've heard both pronunciations, from both reporters and researchers.  I
checked the AHD, the only dictionary I have that's recent enough to list the
word, and it gives only penultimate stress, although it does list a second
spelling without the final -e and pronounced with a short <o>.  Where is the
final-stressed pronunciation coming from?  I can imagine explanations, like
an ersatz-French hypercorrection, but none of them sounds particularly
likely.

Herb Stahlke
Ball State University


From Dfcoye at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 26 13:30:58 2000
From: Dfcoye at AOL.COM (Dfcoye at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:30:58 EDT
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.093058.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Number 12 should include a fourth beside crawdad, crayfish, etc... we called
them crabs in upstate NY, which I believe is in DARE (I haven't got it handy).

When I do something similar with my students (who are 99% New Jerseyans) I
ask them to chose someone from their own generation, parents generation, and
grandparents-- all native New Jerseyans.    Changes are evident in some words
(the increasing use of 'try and' vs. 'try to',  of the /ai/ pronunciation of
either at the expense of /i:/ are particularly dramatic.   In some cases
there is no change over the generations.    I use the pairs  drawer-draw,
woodchuck-groundhog as well.
Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Mon Jun 26 13:37:57 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:37:57 +0100
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.143757.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dale Coye

> Number 12 should include a fourth beside crawdad, crayfish, etc... we called
> them crabs in upstate NY, which I believe is in DARE (I haven't got it handy).

Hm, we called 'em crayfish in upstate NY.  (In the 70s.)

(I think Dale and I are from about 40 miles apart, but we often lexically
differ!)

Lynne


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Jun 26 14:00:55 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:00:55 -0400
Subject: pizza
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.100055.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gastronomically speaking, Barry Popik quotes:

>>>>>
having tasted the various pizzas prepared by the "Maestro," cooked as they were
to perfection, exquisitely flavoured, their "cornicioni" (boarders) very thin,
the Queen expressed her preference for the pizza garnished with mozzarella (Pg.
22--ed.) and tomato
<<<<<

I hope the subsequent flow of excellent pizzas put some weight on the boarders!

[Sorry, Barry; I can't imagine how you type up so much stuff with so few typos!
But this one just fell into a pun and I couldn't resist. :-)\  ]

   Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist and Manager of Acoustic Data
         Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc.
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
                     (speaking for myself)


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Jun 26 14:03:46 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:03:46 -0400
Subject: Old Grey Lady
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.100346.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry says:

>>>>>
     Again in NEW YORK, 22 August 1977, pg. 7, col. 1:  "A mocked-up front
page of the 'newspaper of record' with that famous slogan 'All the News
That's Fit to Print' appeared on page 22."
     I don't remember "newspaper of record" in that 1950s HARPER'S article
that used "Old Grey Lady."
<<<<<

I have a sense of having seen "Old Grey Lady [opt: of xxx Street]" in reference
to _The Times_ of London, as well as her cisatlantic younger sister. Confirm or
correct, anyone?

-- Mark A. Mandel


From faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 26 14:36:17 2000
From: faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:36:17 -0400
Subject: Old Grey Lady
In-Reply-To: <8525690A.004D2C23.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.103617.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:
>Barry says:
>
>>>>>>
>     Again in NEW YORK, 22 August 1977, pg. 7, col. 1:  "A mocked-up front
>page of the 'newspaper of record' with that famous slogan 'All the News
>That's Fit to Print' appeared on page 22."
>     I don't remember "newspaper of record" in that 1950s HARPER'S article
>that used "Old Grey Lady."
><<<<<
>
>I have a sense of having seen "Old Grey Lady [opt: of xxx Street]"
>in reference
>to _The Times_ of London, as well as her cisatlantic younger sister.
>Confirm or
>correct, anyone?

"Grey Lady of Fleet Street" comes to mind, I know not whence.

 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                    new, improved email: faber at pop.haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories            old email, if you must: faber at haskins.yale.edu
New Haven, CT 06511 USA           tel: (203) 865-6163 x258; fax (203) 865-8963


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 26 14:50:51 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:50:51 -0400
Subject: Fwd: "Are regional accents a handicap?"
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.105051.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

f.w.i.w.
>
>Yes, I'm from New York: Don't make fun of my accent
>
>By Cynthia Gelper
>
>http://underwire.msn.com/underwire/social/hiwire/88hiwire.asp
>


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Jun 26 17:45:26 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (Andrea Vine)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:45:26 -0700
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.104526.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hmm, how about hazelnuts/filberts?

Greg Pulliam wrote:
>
> How about garbanzos/chickpeas?
> --


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 26 17:59:38 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:59:38 -0400
Subject: Manhattan cocktail
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.135938.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The online OED has the "Manhattan cocktail" from 1890.  They're revising "m," so I don't know if that's their final answer.
   From SCIENTIFIC BAR-KEEPING, A COLLECTION OF RECIPES USED BY LEADING BAR-KEEPERS IN MAKING STANDARD AND NEW FANCY MIXED DRINKS, RELIABLE DIRECTIONS FOR PRESERVING NATIVE AND FOREIGN WINES, ALES, BEER AND LIQUORS.  CAREFULLY COMPILED AND REVISED. (E. N. Cook, Publishers, Buffalo, N.Y. 1884), pg. 8:

   MANHATTAN COCKTAIL.--2 or 3 dashes of gum syrup; 2 or 3 dashes of bitters; 1 wine glass of Italian vermouth; one wine glass of whisky.  Fill the glass with ice; shake well; strain into a cocktail glass; squeeze the juice of lemon rind and serve.

--------------------------------------------------------
MISC.
   "Old Grey Lady" ultimately comes from "The Old Grey Lady of Threadneedle Street"--the Bank of England...Actually, "boarders" was from the original, I think.  I looked twice at that.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 26 18:11:35 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:11:35 -0400
Subject: The Smoothy (1977)
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.141135.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Smoothies" are popular, but I see "coolers" and "freezers" also served this summer.  Is the singular "smoothie" or "smoothy"?
   This--the only 1970s yogurt book that had it--is from YOGURT (Persea Books, NY, 1977) by Lorry & Gerry Hausman, pg. 104:

Gerry and I have had our most pleasurable yogurt experiences with "smoothies," yogurt drinks prepared in a blender.  The most important thing to remember is anything goes.  Experiment.  Here are a few basic recipes.
   _THE SMOOTHY_
1/2 c. buttermilk
1 1/2 c. milk
1 c. fruit juice, any kind
1 c. yogurt
(Pg. 105--ed.)
You can add fresh fruit to make this even more tantalizing.  Sliced cling peaches, for instance, or strawberries.  Or combinations of these and others.
   Sliced bananas
   One egg
   Pears
   Mango
   Papaya
   Chocolate
   Ovaltine
   Orange juice
   Tangerine juice
   Crangrape, Cranorange, Cranapple or Cranberry
   Frozen fruit (undefrosted)
   Pineapple
   If you like your smoothies more sweet than sour, add honey, jelly, molasses or juice from canned fruits for sweetener.  Also, we use buttermilk as a creamy, complementary base, but you can do without it.  This basic recipe of ours can be changed to suit your preferences, and it is _not_ meant to be a standard, only a reference.  The more juice you add the fruitier the smoothy and the more yogurt, the thicker and more tangy the drink will become.  Add extra milk for more of a milk shake effect.  Ice cubes added will make a delicious frosty-tasting smoothy.  One healthful hint: don't throw away the whey, so to speak.  This is the whitish liquid which sits on top of your yogurt, and it's loaded with vitamins. (you can drink whey all by itself with a little milk added.)


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Jun 26 18:05:06 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:05:06 -0400
Subject: Manhattan cocktail
In-Reply-To: <200006261759.NAA09978@listserv.cc.uga.edu> from
 "Bapopik@AOL.COM" at Jun 26, 2000 01:59:38 PM
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.140506.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>  The online OED has the "Manhattan cocktail" from 1890.  They're
> revising "m," so I don't know if that's their final answer.

> From SCIENTIFIC BAR-KEEPING, A COLLECTION OF RECIPES USED BY LEADING
BAR-KEEPERS IN MAKING STANDARD AND NEW FANCY MIXED DRINKS, RELIABLE
DIRECTIONS FOR PRESERVING NATIVE AND FOREIGN WINES, ALES, BEER AND
LIQUORS.  CAREFULLY COMPILED AND REVISED. (E. N. Cook, Publishers,
Buffalo, N.Y. 1884), pg. 8:

I had found another 1884 for _Manhattan cocktail_; both are
now in the files awaiting updating.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester at panix.com>


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Mon Jun 26 20:34:08 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:34:08 -0500
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <395796B6.7A898E7B@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.153408.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you.  And pecans /pI -'kanz/ and pecans /'pi-kaenz/.


>Hmm, how about hazelnuts/filberts?
>
>Greg Pulliam wrote:
>>
>>  How about garbanzos/chickpeas?
>>  --

--
-

Greg
greg at pulliam.org


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Mon Jun 26 20:38:01 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:38:01 -0500
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.153801.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is another name for those insanely rich, chewy,
chocolate-covered caramel and nut clusters, isn't there?  I know of
"turtles," and I think "Goo-goo clusters" refer to the same thing,
but I'm thinking there's another word for them that I used down in
Mississippi when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s.
--
-

Greg
greg at pulliam.org


From Sallie.Lemons at MSDW.COM  Mon Jun 26 20:51:50 2000
From: Sallie.Lemons at MSDW.COM (Sallie Lemons)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:51:50 -0400
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.165150.0400.>

My dad (Missouri) always referred to this candies as "turtles."

Greg Pulliam wrote:

> There is another name for those insanely rich, chewy,
> chocolate-covered caramel and nut clusters, isn't there?  I know of
> "turtles," and I think "Goo-goo clusters" refer to the same thing,
> but I'm thinking there's another word for them that I used down in
> Mississippi when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s.
> --
> -
>
> Greg
> greg at pulliam.org
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From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Mon Jun 26 21:04:07 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:04:07 -0500
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.160407.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greg wrote:
> There is another name for those insanely rich, chewy,
> chocolate-covered caramel and nut clusters, isn't there?

Millionnaires?  I've always thought of Turtles and Millionnaires
as pretty close to the same, if not identical.
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From andrea.vine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Jun 26 21:11:26 2000
From: andrea.vine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:11:26 -0700
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.141126.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greg Pulliam wrote:
>
> There is another name for those insanely rich, chewy,
> chocolate-covered caramel and nut clusters, isn't there?  I know of
> "turtles," and I think "Goo-goo clusters" refer to the same thing,
> but I'm thinking there's another word for them that I used down in
> Mississippi when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s.
> --

For me, turtles are pecans stuck in a rich nougat with caramel, all coated with
chocolate.  Goo-goo clusters are peanuts stuck in some sort of marshmallowy
nougat with caramel (they are a particular brand).  So I wouldn't interchange
them.

--
Andrea Vine
Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect
avine at eng.sun.com
I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{  Of course, I _am_ an architect.


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Mon Jun 26 21:21:22 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:21:22 -0500
Subject: turtle candy
In-Reply-To: <200006262104.QAA12317@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.162122.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember: pralines!  Aren't these the same as turtles, Natalie?
--
-

Greg
greg at pulliam.org


From jlyons at NETMARKETGROUP.COM  Mon Jun 26 21:30:13 2000
From: jlyons at NETMARKETGROUP.COM (Lyons, Jennifer M)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:30:13 -0400
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.173013.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I always thought these were two different things - pralines don't involve
chocolate, for me.

Jen
who wants a turtle now

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Pulliam [mailto:pulliam at IIT.EDU]
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 5:21 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: turtle candy


I remember: pralines!  Aren't these the same as turtles, Natalie?
--
-

Greg
greg at pulliam.org


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Mon Jun 26 21:35:35 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:35:35 -0500
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.163535.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greg wrote:
> I remember: pralines!  Aren't these the same as turtles, Natalie?

Definitely not!  Turtles are chocolate candy with nuts and caramel.
Pralines are wonderful cookie-shaped things made of mainly sugar
and pecans.  I'm not good at describing food.  Let me go see if I
have a recipe.
...
Ok, here's one from p. 83 of _White Trash Cooking_:

***********************
Mama Two's Pralines

2 cups sugar (light brown, if possible)
2 cups granulated sugar
1 small can evaporated milk
1 cup water
2 tablespoons white syrup
1/2 teaspoon soda
2 teaspoons vanilla
2 tablespoons butter
1 cup pecans (whote)

Blend together milk, water, soda, and syrup.  Blend well or milk
will curdle.  Stir in mixed brown and white sugar.  Cook to soft
ball stage.  Remove from fire and beat until light brown.  Put in
vanilla, then butter, and, last, pecans.  Drop on wax paper and
let cool.  Makes about 24 good-sized patties.
**********************

   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Jun 26 21:26:31 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:26:31 -0700
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.142631.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greg Pulliam wrote:
>
> I remember: pralines!  Aren't these the same as turtles, Natalie?
> --

Er, and pralines are pecans caught in a hardened sugar mixture.  So I could eat
a praline, a turtle, and a goo-goo cluster and have 3 different taste
experiences (not to mention get sick and promote tooth decay.)


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Mon Jun 26 21:38:25 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:38:25 -0400
Subject: turtle candy
In-Reply-To: <3957C6FE.C58F6E5B@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.173825.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, A. Vine wrote:

>For me, turtles are pecans stuck in a rich nougat with caramel, all coated with
>chocolate.  Goo-goo clusters are peanuts stuck in some sort of marshmallowy
>nougat with caramel (they are a particular brand).  So I wouldn't interchange
>them.

Goo-goo clusters have migrated into the postmodern world. Now you can
get them with either peanuts or pecans.

But modern Goo-goo clusters come with peanuts.

Bethany


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Mon Jun 26 21:40:14 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:40:14 -0400
Subject: turtle candy
In-Reply-To: <p04320402b57d7994a179@[216.47.144.24]>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.174014.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Greg Pulliam wrote:

>I remember: pralines!  Aren't these the same as turtles, Natalie?

No. No no no no no!

Pralines are harder candies made with pecans and sugar and water and
maybe some vanilla extract. No caramel.

Bethany


From davemarc at PANIX.COM  Mon Jun 26 21:50:07 2000
From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:50:07 -0400
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.175007.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Katydids, anyone (else)?

d.


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Mon Jun 26 22:03:26 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:03:26 -0500
Subject: turtle candy
In-Reply-To: <200006262135.QAA12804@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.170326.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, I'm stymied then.  I was sure there was another name we had for
"Turtles" in Mississippi.  And "Millionaires" didn't ring a bell with
me.

I give up for now, though.  Thanks, y'all.

Greg


>Greg wrote:
>>  I remember: pralines!  Aren't these the same as turtles, Natalie?
>
>Definitely not!  Turtles are chocolate candy with nuts and caramel.
>Pralines are wonderful cookie-shaped things made of mainly sugar
>and pecans.  I'm not good at describing food.  Let me go see if I
>have a recipe.
>...
>Ok, here's one from p. 83 of _White Trash Cooking_:
>
>***********************
>Mama Two's Pralines
>
>2 cups sugar (light brown, if possible)
>2 cups granulated sugar
>1 small can evaporated milk
>1 cup water
>2 tablespoons white syrup
>1/2 teaspoon soda
>2 teaspoons vanilla
>2 tablespoons butter
>1 cup pecans (whote)
>
>Blend together milk, water, soda, and syrup.  Blend well or milk
>will curdle.  Stir in mixed brown and white sugar.  Cook to soft
>ball stage.  Remove from fire and beat until light brown.  Put in
>vanilla, then butter, and, last, pecans.  Drop on wax paper and
>let cool.  Makes about 24 good-sized patties.
>**********************
>
>    --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Jun 26 22:22:29 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:22:29 -0500
Subject: GEnome or geNOME
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.172229.0500.>

I listened for pronunciations during an afternoon CNN piece.  Only Myron Kandel (however he spells his name) said geNOM.  All the others said what seems natural to me -- GEnom.  In addition to AHD, Webster's 10th, the Oxford American Dictionary and Language Guide, and the Cambridge International Dictionary of English all have GEnom.  Kandel seems at times to be rather fussy about his pronunciations, and people like that occasionally apply Romance stress rules rather than Germanic stress rules -- I assume on the assumption that they are being more sophisticated.  But they use initial stress on
HARra(s)sment.

Herb Stahlke wrote:

> This morning I heard Carl Kassel, reporting on the nearly completed mapping of the human genome, stress the ultima.  In other reports and interviews I've heard both pronunciations, from both reporters and researchers.  I checked the AHD, the only dictionary I have that's recent enough to list the word, and it gives only penultimate stress, although it does list a second spelling without the final -e and pronounced with a short <o>.  Where is the final-stressed pronunciation coming from?  I can imagine explanations, like an ersatz-French hypercorrection, but none of them sounds particularly likely.
>
> Herb Stahlke
> Ball State University


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 27 00:34:36 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:34:36 -0400
Subject: Yale Cocktail (1895)
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.203436.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

YALE COCKTAIL (continued)

   This is a terrible omission by the OED!
   From MODERN AMERICAN DRINKS, HOW TO MIX AND SERVE ALL KINDS OF CUPS AND DRINKS (Merriam Company, NY, 1895) by George J. Kappeler, pg. 44:

   _Yale Cocktail._
   Fill a mixing-glass half-full fine ice, three dashes orange bitters, one dash Peyschaud bitters, a piece lemon-peel, one jigger Tom gin.  Mix, strain into cocktail-glass; add a squirt of siphon seltzer.

--------------------------------------------------------
HIGH BALL (continued)

   Another citation is MIXOLOGY; THE ART OF PREPARING ALL KINDS OF DRINKS (Press of the Sunday Star, Wilmington, Del., 1898), pg. 10:

   _High Ball._
   Medium sized glass.  A little lemon juice, a little cracked ice, a good drink of whiskey; fill up with seltzer; stir slightly; serve.
   Brandy, Holland gin, Tom gin, or Scotch whiskey are used also in making High Balls.

   Hm.  Isn't a "High Ball" supposed to be in a "high" or "tall" glass?
   I guess Jesse has the "Martinez" from Jerry Thomas and the 1888 "Martini" in H. Johnson's book, right?


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 27 00:39:40 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:39:40 -0400
Subject: Yale Cocktail (1895)
In-Reply-To: <200006270034.UAA06108@listserv.cc.uga.edu> from
 "Bapopik@AOL.COM" at Jun 26, 2000 08:34:36 PM
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.203940.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>    I guess Jesse has the "Martinez" from Jerry Thomas and the 1888
> "Martini" in H. Johnson's book, right?

Jerry Thomas doesn't have "Martinez" until the 1887 edition, but
O.H. Byron had "Martinez" in 1884.

Harry Johnson does have the first "Martini," in 1888.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 27 01:01:31 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:01:31 -0400
Subject: La Cocinera Poblana
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.210131.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   LA COCINERA POBLANA Y EL LIBRO DE LAS FAMILIAS ("Novisimo manual practico de cocina espanola francesa, inglesa y mexicana higiene y economia domestica")was published in Mexico City, with TOMO I in 1887 and TOMO II in 1888.  Perhaps the OED can count it as a citation?  It's the 19th century bible of Mexican cooking.  I just examined the copy in the Library of Congress.
   "Quesadillas" is on pg. 59 of Tomo II.  Jesse was interested in "masa," and that's on page 84.
   No "fajita" that I can easily spot.  Some "enchiladas," "tamales," and "salsas."


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Tue Jun 27 02:59:29 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:59:29 -0400
Subject: The Smoothy (1977)
In-Reply-To: <200006261811.OAA13670@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.225929.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    "Smoothies"

By the way, I believe that Smoothie is a trademark, if I recall correctly
from researching this.


--- Steve K.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 27 03:31:41 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:31:41 -0400
Subject: turtle candy
In-Reply-To: <200006262104.QAA12317@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.233141.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:04 PM -0500 6/26/00, Natalie Maynor wrote:
>Greg wrote:
>> There is another name for those insanely rich, chewy,
>> chocolate-covered caramel and nut clusters, isn't there?
>
>Millionnaires?  I've always thought of Turtles and Millionnaires
>as pretty close to the same, if not identical.

Who wants to be a turtle?


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 27 03:34:38 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:34:38 -0400
Subject: Yale Cocktail (1895)
In-Reply-To: <200006270034.UAA06108@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.233438.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:34 PM -0400 6/26/00, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>YALE COCKTAIL (continued)
>
>   This is a terrible omission by the OED!
>   From MODERN AMERICAN DRINKS, HOW TO MIX AND SERVE ALL KINDS OF CUPS AND
>DRINKS (Merriam Company, NY, 1895) by George J. Kappeler, pg. 44:
>
>   _Yale Cocktail._
>   Fill a mixing-glass half-full fine ice, three dashes orange bitters,
>one dash Peyschaud bitters, a piece lemon-peel, one jigger Tom gin.  Mix,
>strain into cocktail-glass; add a squirt of siphon seltzer.
>
And now, barely a century later, you can't even find half of the essential
ingredients on campus here.  Very sad.


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Tue Jun 27 04:35:51 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:35:51 -0400
Subject: turtle candy
In-Reply-To: <200006262135.QAA12804@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.003551.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hey, Natalie,

Could you use dark brown sugar here?  I might just try this recipe.

bob

> From: Natalie Maynor <maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:35:35 -0500
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: turtle candy
>
> Mama Two's Pralines
>
> 2 cups sugar (light brown, if possible)
> 2 cups granulated sugar
> 1 small can evaporated milk
> 1 cup water
> 2 tablespoons white syrup
> 1/2 teaspoon soda
> 2 teaspoons vanilla
> 2 tablespoons butter
> 1 cup pecans (whote)
>
> Blend together milk, water, soda, and syrup.  Blend well or milk
> will curdle.  Stir in mixed brown and white sugar.  Cook to soft
> ball stage.  Remove from fire and beat until light brown.  Put in
> vanilla, then butter, and, last, pecans.  Drop on wax paper and
> let cool.  Makes about 24 good-sized patties.


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Tue Jun 27 05:25:46 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:25:46 -0500
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.002546.0500.>

Clearly, Greg Pulliam was way, way off in suggesting that "pralines" is
another name for "Turtles".   His original question, however, correctly
implies that there is another product on the market that is highly
similar to Turtles.  The name is "Pixies".

I had the impression that both Turtles and Pixies were exclusive trade
marks, and that the makers of Pixies came up with that name because they
were blocked from calling their product Turtles.  (That's the reason for
all the upper case initials I'm throwing in here.)  A down and dirty
Google search, however, reveals lots and lots of recipes for making
turtles (l.c.) in your own kitchen. The ingredients look like about what
I'd expect to find in Turtles.

"Pixies", on Google, got lots of information about a rock group, but I
didn't notice anything about the trademarked candy.

I know that Nestl? makes a product called "Turtles" because I have an
example in front of me.  (Retro me, Satanas! Greg, it was NOT kind of
you to put this temptation in front of me!) Unfotunately, the Nestl? Web
site doesn't give any further information.  Neither does the wrapper I
am trying so hard not to open.

All the wrapper says is "Nestl?", "Turtles", and "This unit not labeled
for retail sale".

I think (but I'm not sure) that Pixies are the exclusive product of
Fannie Mae candies.  (If they're not, then the Fannie Mae clone company
whose name I forget has them.)

-- mike salovesh    <salovesh at niu.edu>   PEACE !!!


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Tue Jun 27 05:56:51 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:56:51 -0700
Subject: Turtles or ?
In-Reply-To: <200006270401.VAA29258@odo.U.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUN.2000.225651.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Millionnaires as I recall is a brand name, but I'm like Greg, I feel sure
there was a different term, perhaps a local Texas brand name, used around
Austin in the 1950s-1960s until "turtles" edged it out -- I recall
disliking the new label, preferring the old. But I can't think of it now.
        The locally interesting thing about pralines in Texas is that they
are pronounced /prEYliynz/ in Central Texas, but /pr)liynz/ in East
Texas. This is one of my favorite stories: I was in New Orleans once, and
decided to pursue the pronciation to its source, so I located a store in
the French Quarter which specialized in pralines, in all colors and
flavors. I found a young woman behind the counter, who from appearances
looked as though she might be a local Cajun (p.c. Acadian), and asked her
what she called them. Her response was a delightful /prAriynz/ (/a/ as in
"father"). In South Texas, where they were regularly given as a free
dessert (now $1 extra) with coffee in Mexican food restaurants, there was
no regular name for them at the time, except perhaps "pecan candy".

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 27 08:58:48 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 04:58:48 EDT
Subject: Bio-prenuer; Green Wall; Smoothie; Pina Colada; Margarita
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.045848.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BIO-PRENUER

     "Bio-prenuer was project's driving force" is the headline in the NEW
YORK POST, 27 June 2000, pg. 8, col. 1.  The story is about Craig Venter and
that "genome" thing.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
GREEN WALL

     "Dot-coms are starting to hit the green wall" is the headline in the NEW
YORK POST, 27 June 2000, pg. 42, col. 1.
     It could be a green monster.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SMOOTHIE (continued)

     "I Scream, You Scream, We All Scream For...Uh...Frozen Yogurt" was in
LOS ANGELES magazine, June 1977.
     From "Where You Can Buy It," pg. 149, col. 2:

_The Cookie Farm and Dairy Co._, 1627 Fallbrook...  Alta-Dena frozen yogurt
is presented in cones, dishes, shakes, banana splits and smoothies.
(...)
_Hanging Gardens_, 160 S. Lake Ave., Pasadena, 792-8276.  Aside from dishes,
cones and banana splits, Frogurt is used in a high-protein drink and a
frozen-yogurt "smoothie."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PINA COLADA (continued)

     I could request three years at a time.  I looked through 1957-1958-1959,
1960-1961-1962, 1963-1964-1965, and 1966-1967-1968 of QUE PASA IN PUERTO RICO.
     I did NOT find "pina colada"!
     Perhaps I'll go back and check the 1970s.
     It's interesting to note that Trader Vic opened up in the Caribe Hilton
in the 1960s.
However, the Trader's own books and articles don't mention the "pina colada"
drink before the late 1960s-early 1970s.
     From QUE PASA IN PUERTO RICO, October 1957, pg. 25:

     _MIXOLOGIST JOE_
     Joe Scialom is a master bartender and world renowned mixologist.  The
former bar manager of Cairo's Shepheard's (sic) Hotel, Joe has been presiding
over the Caribar in San Juan's Caribe Hilton since early this year.
     Joe is more than just a manager--he is a creator with an almost
spiritual devotion to the spirits he dispenses.  Since he's been at the
Hilton, he has developed a number of new drinks, most of them using the
light, full flavored Puerto Rican rum as a base.
     The names Joe picks for his drinks are just as inviting as the mixtures
themselves--who can resist when the list includes such fanciful titles as the
"Tropical Itch" (served in a stylized hurricane lamp), the "Coucou Comber,"
(in a cucumber shell), or "Sol y Sombra" (sun and shade).
     Joe has found great inspiration for his fascinating drinks in Puerto
Rico.  He likes the climate, the people and the scenery.  And Puerto Rico
likes Joe.  Let's hope he stays around for a long time to come.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MARGARITA (continued)

     I went through a few years of the TEXAS MONTHLY (I must have gone
through a hundred books today), but I didn't find "fajita" or "chimichanga."
     "The Man Who Invented the Margarita" is in TEXAS MONTHLY, October 1974,
pp. 76+.  The story about Pancho Morales had been summarized by other
sources, but I finally copied it.  Anyone want an excerpt?


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Tue Jun 27 09:35:36 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:35:36 -0400
Subject: "jukebox"
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.053536.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Sunday, June 25, 2000 11:22 AM
Subject: "jukebox"


>Just came across the below item in the current (24 Jun 00) issue of Michael
>Quinion's weekly "World Wide Words" e-column.  I find the story (based on
>
>================================
>
>The jukebox was invented in the late 1930s to provide music in
>those jooks that didn't have their own bands. The first recorded
>appearance of the word was in - of all places - _Time_ magazine, in
>1939: "Glenn Miller attributes his crescendo to the 'juke-box',
>which retails recorded music at 5c a shot in bars, restaurants and
>small roadside dance joints". It's gone up in price a bit since,
>but next time you see one, think of the long linguistic journey
>implied by its name.

I like the latest incarnation of jukebox as an all-in-one software program
for digitizing, playing, and managing music on a computer, i.e. MusicMatch
Jukebox, and RealJukebox.

In a similar vein, in the tradition of the venerable ISP (Internet Service
Provider), and the surprisingly sticky ASP (Application Service Provider),
last week's MP3 conference brought us MSP, Music Service Provider.

Michael Robertson, CEO of MP3.com, has used MSP in the past, and as far as I
know, coined the term, but at the conference last week he unveiled a set of
specs for something called MSP 1.0, an umbrella platform for anybody in the
digital/online music business (aside to Gareth: I'm trying to get a copy for
review 8-).

Time will tell whether this sticks or not...

bkd


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Tue Jun 27 09:46:57 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:46:57 -0400
Subject: GEnome or geNOME
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.054657.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Derrick Chapman <derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Monday, June 26, 2000 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: GEnome or geNOME


>One day we may have to acquiesce to GEE-ne-tics.  GEE-whiz!


Hmmmm...

GEEN-a-tics (rhymes with lunatics): people who recreationally rewrite their
DNA for fashion or sport....

I like it...but I don't think we'll be seeing that usage for a while. More
likely it'll come from cautionary advocates to refer researchers they wish
to label as careless or reckless.

bkd


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Tue Jun 27 10:02:23 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 06:02:23 -0400
Subject: from turtles to pixies....
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.060223.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 1:25 AM
Subject: Re: turtle candy


>Clearly, Greg Pulliam was way, way off in suggesting that "pralines" is
>another name for "Turtles".   His original question, however, correctly
>implies that there is another product on the market that is highly
>similar to Turtles.  The name is "Pixies".
>
>I had the impression that both Turtles and Pixies were exclusive trade
>marks, and that the makers of Pixies came up with that name because they
>were blocked from calling their product Turtles.  (That's the reason for
>all the upper case initials I'm throwing in here.)  A down and dirty
>Google search, however, reveals lots and lots of recipes for making
>turtles (l.c.) in your own kitchen. The ingredients look like about what
>I'd expect to find in Turtles.
>
>"Pixies", on Google, got lots of information about a rock group, but I
>didn't notice anything about the trademarked candy.
>
>I think (but I'm not sure) that Pixies are the exclusive product of
>Fannie Mae candies.  (If they're not, then the Fannie Mae clone company
>whose name I forget has them.)


The only pixie candy I've ever come across is (are?) Pixie Stix. Though a
case could be made that the three foot editions really don't have anything
to do with pixies anymore...8-)

I've never seen pixies associated with chocolate...

And now to further promote tooth decay, the Wonka company, in their present
resurgence, are reintroducing Oompas. Only now they're fruit candies, ala
Skittles. When I first encountered them in the late 70's/early 80's, they
were chocolate and peanut butter in a round candy shell, just like today's
peanut butter and chocolate M&M's.

bkd
31yo, NE seaboard...


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Tue Jun 27 10:36:30 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:36:30 -0500
Subject: from turtles to pixies....
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.053630.0500.>

Bruce Dykes wrote:

>
> The only pixie candy I've ever come across is (are?) Pixie Stix. Though a
> case could be made that the three foot editions really don't have anything
> to do with pixies anymore...8-)
>
> I've never seen pixies associated with chocolate...


Ooops!  I attributed Pixies to "Fannie Mae" candies -- an obvious
intrusion from the financial markets. (Not that I would know much about
financial markets.  To me, the classic example of an oxymoron is an
"economic anthropologist", becaue if we knew anything about economics we
surely wouldn't be anthropologists.)

The candy people spell their company label "Fannie May".  Here's a quote
from their online ordering service:

>>>

  Send a Fannie May? favorite to all your loved ones. Pixies? have
remained our best selling candy for years -- winning every popularity
contest with the perfect taste combination of crunchy pecans and smooth,
creamy caramel -- drenched in delicious milk chocolate.

>>>

OK, Bruce, now you've seen Pixies? associated with chocolate.  Maybe
it's the pixies, not the Pixies?, who never touch the stuff.

--mike salovesh       <salovesh at niu.edu>          PEACE !!!


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Tue Jun 27 11:04:26 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 07:04:26 -0400
Subject: Found in a DVD review...
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.070426.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

"For more up-close and personal information, order up director Tim Burton's
fine audio commentrak..."
(found at http://www.eonmagazine.com/)

Commentrak refers to the audio commentary track included as a bonus on most
DVDs...

bkd


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 27 11:44:57 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 07:44:57 EDT
Subject: Turtles; Horse's Neck
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.074457.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The book SCIENTIFIC BAR-TENDING (1884) that I cited for "Manhattan" was
written by Joseph W. Gibson, but his name did not appear on the cover.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TURTLES

"I can't see me loving nobody but you."
--TURTLES, "Happy Together."

   From the TRIED AND TRUE COOK BOOK (First Methodist Church, Gonzales,
Texas, 1961), pg. 114:

     _TURTLES_
4 1/2 Cups sugar
1 Stick butter (less 1 in.)
1 Large can evaporated milk
1 Pound pecans
2 Pkgs. chocolate chips
1 Jar Mashmallow Creme
     Boil 7 minutes the sugar, butter and milk, stirring constantly.  Pour
into mixture of pecans, chocolate chips and Marshmallow Creme.  Drop on foil
paper to cool.  Makes 3 dozen.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
HORSE'S NECK

     John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK has:

_horse's neck._  A strip of lemon or orange peel cut from the fruit in a
continuous spiral and usually served as a garnish in a cocktail (1900).  The
term is also a euphemism for "horse's ass," but it had not been established
when a drink by the name of "horse's neck" first appeared.

     From MODERN AMERICAN DRINKS (Merriam Company, NY, 1895) by George J.
Kappeler, pg. 68:

     _Horse's Neck._
     Cut the peel from a lemon in one long piece, place in a thin
punch-glass, add a bottle of cold imported ginger ale.


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Tue Jun 27 11:44:46 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 06:44:46 -0500
Subject: outdated metaphors
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.064446.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In today's NYTimes an article on technospeak lists some outdated metaphors:

Earlier technological developments left their mark on the language. The
          railroads gave rise to expressions like "going off the rails" and
"getting
          sidetracked"; the steam engine produced "working up a head of steam"
          and "full steam ahead"; and the automobile left us with "pedal to
the
          metal," "firing on all cylinders" and "eatin' concrete."


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Tue Jun 27 12:29:36 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 07:29:36 -0500
Subject: clitoris
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.072936.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There are common names for most body parts but not all.

Is there one for clitoris?  It sounds too medical for poetic use, and
'bump' which I used in a poem, seems too clunky.

Suggestions anyone?

Bob Wachal


From derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM  Tue Jun 27 12:55:37 2000
From: derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM (Derrick Chapman)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:55:37 -0400
Subject: clitoris
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000627072936.007d3b10@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.085537.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Clit" is a commonly heard term.  Also the truly poetic "little man in the
boat."  I think the Asiatic reference is the Pearl of the Jade Gate.

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Robert S. Wachal
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 8:30 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: clitoris


There are common names for most body parts but not all.

Is there one for clitoris?  It sounds too medical for poetic use, and
'bump' which I used in a poem, seems too clunky.

Suggestions anyone?

Bob Wachal


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Jun 27 12:57:52 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:57:52 +0100
Subject: clitoris
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.135752.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> There are common names for most body parts but not all.
>
> Is there one for clitoris?  It sounds too medical for poetic use, and
> 'bump' which I used in a poem, seems too clunky.
>
> Suggestions anyone?
>
> Bob Wachal
>

The 'common' name is 'clit'.  But I don't think 'clitoris' is any more
medical sounding than 'penis'.  It's certainly better than
'pseudophallus' or anything like that.

Some figurative/slang names are the 'pearl', 'button', and the
ever-popular 'little man in the boat'.

Not sure I want to know about the poem,
Lynne


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Tue Jun 27 12:58:17 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:58:17 -0400
Subject: clitoris
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.085817.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Lynne Murphy <lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: clitoris


>The 'common' name is 'clit'.  But I don't think 'clitoris' is any more
>medical sounding than 'penis'.  It's certainly better than
>'pseudophallus' or anything like that.
>
>Some figurative/slang names are the 'pearl', 'button', and the
>ever-popular 'little man in the boat'.
>
>Not sure I want to know about the poem,


I've seen 'clittie'...rhymes with kitty...but I've been sheltered...8-)

bkd


From derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM  Tue Jun 27 13:03:40 2000
From: derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM (Derrick Chapman)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:03:40 -0400
Subject: clitoris
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000627072936.007d3b10@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.090340.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ah, here is a good source of referants:
http://www.hps-online.com/tsy6.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Robert S. Wachal
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 8:30 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: clitoris


There are common names for most body parts but not all.

Is there one for clitoris?  It sounds too medical for poetic use, and
'bump' which I used in a poem, seems too clunky.

Suggestions anyone?

Bob Wachal


From derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM  Tue Jun 27 13:03:39 2000
From: derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM (Derrick Chapman)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:03:39 -0400
Subject: virtually and literally outdated metaphors
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000627064446.007f5540@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.090339.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Burn rubber" for automobiles.
"down the line" for trains.

The Shakespearean "hoist on his own petard" for mining.

I don't think they are outdated, just apt to be used even when their
original context is not clearly recognized by the user.

By the way, have you noticed how the word "literally" is often used to mean
its exact opposite?  One day my wife told me her principal had "literally
torn this teacher up in an argument!"

Kinda like "virtually" sometimes means "except for the fact that it isn't,
it is."


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Robert S. Wachal
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 7:45 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: outdated metaphors


In today's NYTimes an article on technospeak lists some outdated metaphors:

Earlier technological developments left their mark on the language. The
          railroads gave rise to expressions like "going off the rails" and
"getting
          sidetracked"; the steam engine produced "working up a head of
steam"
          and "full steam ahead"; and the automobile left us with "pedal to
the
          metal," "firing on all cylinders" and "eatin' concrete."


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 27 12:52:13 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:52:13 -0400
Subject: clitoris
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000627072936.007d3b10@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.085213.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Robert S. Wachal wrote:

> There are common names for most body parts but not all.
>
> Is there one for clitoris?  It sounds too medical for poetic use, and
> 'bump' which I used in a poem, seems too clunky.

Maybe the point of your query is that you are looking for non-slang terms,
but slang terms for clitoris include clit, clitty, boy in the boat, man in
the boat, love button, button, switch.  More could undoubtedly be found in
a slang thesaurus.

Fred Shapiro


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Tue Jun 27 13:20:47 2000
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen Miller)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:20:47 -0400
Subject: Katydid
In-Reply-To: <20000626215649.3A8ED30F08@mail1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.092047.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


I grew up in the midwest and always called them cicadas - till I got to
Louisiana.




At 05:50 PM 6/26/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Katydids, anyone (else)?
>
>d.

Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times

"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret: It is only with the heart
that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the
eye."                 Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM  Tue Jun 27 13:19:53 2000
From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Pearsons, Enid)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:19:53 -0400
Subject: GEnome or geNOME
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.091953.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As do Random House Webster's Unabridged and College dictionaries.

-----Original Message-----
From: Donald M. Lance [mailto:LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU]
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 6:22 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: GEnome or geNOME

<snippet>In addition to AHD, Webster's 10th, the Oxford American Dictionary
and Language Guide, and the Cambridge International Dictionary of English
all have GEnom.


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Tue Jun 27 13:53:49 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:53:49 -0500
Subject: clitoris
In-Reply-To: <01c301bfe037$5d823260$8a70cec0@qwe.graphnet.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.085349.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, 'pearl' fits the poem nicely.

Bob

At 08:58 AM 6/27/00 -0400, Bruce Dykes wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lynne Murphy <lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Date: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 8:55 AM
>Subject: Re: clitoris
>
>
>>The 'common' name is 'clit'.  But I don't think 'clitoris' is any more
>>medical sounding than 'penis'.  It's certainly better than
>>'pseudophallus' or anything like that.
>>
>>Some figurative/slang names are the 'pearl', 'button', and the
>>ever-popular 'little man in the boat'.
>>
>>Not sure I want to know about the poem,
>
>
>I've seen 'clittie'...rhymes with kitty...but I've been sheltered...8-)
>
>bkd
>
>


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Tue Jun 27 14:58:14 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:58:14 -0500
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.095814.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bob asks:

> Hey, Natalie,
>
> Could you use dark brown sugar here?  I might just try this recipe.

I don't know.  I've never made them.  But I've consumed hundreds
of them, the best of them made in New Orleans of course.

   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Tue Jun 27 14:59:49 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:59:49 -0500
Subject: Turtles or ?
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.095949.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Rudy says:
> Millionnaires as I recall is a brand name, but I'm like Greg, I feel sure

Yes.  Millionnaires was the brand (which I think still exists).

   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)
     almost late for class and hungry for turtles and pralines


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 27 15:26:08 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:26:08 -0400
Subject: clitoris
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10006270843540.13384-100000@morpheus.cis.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.112608.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The "Glossary of Sexual and Scatalogical Euphemisms"--whose web site
(http://www.uta.fi/FAST/GC/sex-scat.html) was posted on ads earlier--lists,
among some of the other suggestions posted here ("button", "clitty"), two
more variants of the ubiquitous man in the boat:  "the boy-in-the-bush",
"the man-in-the-canoe".   "Mugget" is listed in the same general
"female-genital related" column but I've never previously encountered
it--probably not a safe bet for the poem.  The glossary doesn't include
"nub", which I have heard or seen.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 27 15:34:39 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:34:39 -0400
Subject: Mugget again
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.113439.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oops.  Scratch that.  I had just checked the on-line OED and a couple of
other standard dictionaries and couldn't find any "female-genital related"
senses.  (That on-line glossary doesn't give specific glosses.)  But then I
tried the Spears _Dictionary of Slang and Euphemism_, and sure enough there
it was:

MUGGET 'a false vulva with a pubic wig worn by male homosexual prostitutes
in drag'

--not to be confused with MERKIN, of course.  In any case, 'mugget' would
not have been a good choice for the poem.

larry


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Tue Jun 27 15:43:14 2000
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:43:14 -0400
Subject: English words for @
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.114314.0400.PAUL@MCFEDRIES.COM>

I know I'm competing with the "clitoris" thread on this one, but I've heard
various English words used for the @ symbol, including the following:

at
snail
strudel
vortex
whorl

Does anybody know of any others? I tried searching the archives, but
received the following error:

The requested method POST is not allowed for the URL
/excite/AT-adslsearch.cgi.

Thanks a bunch.

Paul

======================================
Home: http://www.mcfedries.com/
Books: http://www.mcfedries.com/books/
Word Spy: http://www.wordspy.com/
======================================


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 27 16:02:47 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:02:47 -0400
Subject: English words for @
In-Reply-To: <011b01bfe04e$68c6e780$8321d0d8@mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.120247.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:43 AM -0400 6/27/00, Paul McFedries wrote:
>I know I'm competing with the "clitoris" thread on this one, but I've heard
>various English words used for the @ symbol, including the following:
>
>at
>snail
>strudel
>vortex
>whorl
>
>Does anybody know of any others? I tried searching the archives, but
>received the following error:
>
>The requested method POST is not allowed for the URL
>/excite/AT-adslsearch.cgi.
>
>Thanks a bunch.
>
>Paul
>
Here's Michael Quinion's posting on the subject;sorry for the formating.
(Note the alleged popularity of "whirlpool" in this and the other
summaries.)  The main Linguist List summary on the topic can be found in
the archives at the following two references:

LINGUIST List:  Vol-7-968. Tue Jul 2 1996. ISSN: 1068-4875. Lines:  1387
Subject: 7.968, Sum: The @ symbol

LINGUIST List:  Vol-7-1177. Tue Aug 20 1996. ISSN: 1068-4875. Lines:  176
Sum: The @ sign: addendum

Quinion's World Wide Words column, 4/27/00:

                                      WHERE IT'S AT
                             Names for a common symbol


                            The @ symbol has been a central part of the
Internet and its forerunners ever since it was chosen to be a
                            separator in e-mail addresses by Ray Tomlinson
in 1972. From puzzled comments which surface from
                            time to time in various newsgroups, it appears
the biggest problem for many Net users is deciding what to
                            call it. This is perhaps unsurprising, as
outside the narrow limits of bookkeeping, invoicing and related
                            areas few people use it regularly. Even fewer
ever have to find a name for it, so it is just noted mentally as
                            something like "that letter a with the curly
line round it".

                            It use in business actually goes back to late
medieval times. It was originally a contraction for the Latin
                            word ad, meaning "to, toward, at" and was used
in accounts or invoices to introduce the price of
                            something ("3 yds of lace for my lady @ 1/4d a
yard"). In cursive writing, the upright stroke of the 'd'
                            curved over to the left and extended around the
'a'; eventually the lower part fused with the 'a' to form one
                            symbol. Even after Latin ceased to be commonly
understood, the symbol remained in use with the
                            equivalent English sense of at. Because
business employed it, it was put on typewriter keyboards from
                            about 1880 onwards, though it is very
noticeable that the designers of several of the early machines didn't
                            think it important enough to include it
(neither the Sholes keyboard of 1873 nor the early Caligraph one
                            had it, giving preference to the ampersand
instead), and was carried over to the standard computer character
                            sets of EBCDIC and ASCII in the sixties. From
there, it has spread out across the networked world,
                            perforce even into language groups such as
Arabic, Tamil or Japanese which do not use the Roman
                            alphabet.

                            A discussion on the LINGUIST discussion list
about names for @ in various languages produced an
                            enormous response, from which most of the facts
which follow are drawn. Some have just transliterated
                            the English name 'at' or 'commercial at' into
the local language. What is interesting is that nearly all the
                            languages cited have developed colloquial names
for it which have food or animal references.

                            In German, it is frequently called Klammeraffe,
'spider monkey' (you can imagine the monkey's tail),
                            though this word also has a figurative sense
very similar to that of the English 'leech' ("He grips like a
                            leech"). Danish has grisehale, 'pig's tail' (as
does Norwegian), but more commonly calls it snabel a, 'a
                            (with an) elephant's trunk', as does Swedish,
where it is the name recommended by the Swedish Language
                            Board. Dutch has apestaart or apestaartje,
'(little) monkey's tail' (the 'je' is a diminutive); this turns up
                            in Friesian as apesturtsje and in Swedish and
Finnish in the form apinanhanta. Finnish also has
                            kissanh?nt?, 'cat's tail' and, most
wonderfully, miukumauku, 'the miaow sign'. In Hungarian it is kukac,
                            'worm; maggot', in Russian 'little dog', in
Serbian majmun, 'monkey', with a similar term in Bulgarian.
                            Both Spanish and Portuguese have arroba, which
derives from a unit of weight. In Thai, the name
                            transliterates as 'the wiggling worm-like
character'. Czechs often call it zavin?c which is a rolled-up
                            herring or rollmop; the most-used Hebrew term
is strudel, from the famous Viennese rolled-up apple
                            sweet. Another common Swedish name is
kanelbulle, 'cinnamon bun', which is rolled up in a similar way.

                            The most curious usage, because it seems to
have spread furthest from its origins, whatever they are, is
                            snail. The French have called it escargot for a
long time (though more formal terms are arobase or a
                            commercial), but the term is also common in
Italian (chiocciola), and has recently appeared in Hebrew
                            (shablul), Korean (dalphaengi) and Esperanto
(heliko).

                            In English the name of the sign seems to be
most commonly given as at or, more fully, commercial at,
                            which is the official name given to it in the
international standard character sets. Other names include
                            whirlpool (from its use in the joke computer
language INTERCAL) and fetch (from FORTH), but these
                            are much less common. A couple of the
international names have come over into English: snail is fairly
                            frequently used; more surprisingly, so is
snabel from Danish.

                            Even so, as far as English is concerned at is
likely to remain the standard name for the symbol. But there
                            is evidence that the sign itself is moving out
from its Internet heartland to printed publications. Recently
                            the British newspaper, the Guardian, began to
advertise a bookselling service by post, whose title (not
                            e-mail address) is "Books at The Guardian". Do I
detect a trend?

                            At least we shall have no problem finding a
name for the symbol.

                            References
                              Beeching, Wilfred A Century of the Typewriter
British Typewriter Museum Publishing, Bournemouth,
                            England, 1990
                              Chung, Karen S Linguist List, number 7.968, 2
July 1996. Available from

http://www.emich.edu/~linguist/issues/html/7-968.html
                              Hafner, Katie & Lyon, Matthew Where Wizards
Stay Up Late: the Origins of the Internet Simon &
                            Schuster, 1996
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From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Jun 27 15:49:06 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:49:06 -0400
Subject: smooth turtles
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.114906.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Steve K." <stevek at SHORE.NET> writes:

>>>>>
By the way, I believe that Smoothie is a trademark, if I recall correctly
from researching this.
<<<<<

Isn't "Turtle", for those chocolate-nut candies, also one?

-- Mark


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Jun 27 15:52:01 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:52:01 -0400
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.115201.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dale Coye writes:

>>>>>
When I do something similar with my students (who are 99% New Jerseyans) I
ask them to chose someone from their own generation, parents generation, and
grandparents-- all native New Jerseyans.    Changes are evident in some words
(the increasing use of 'try and' vs. 'try to',  of the /ai/ pronunciation of
either at the expense of /i:/ are particularly dramatic.
<<<<<

Would you clarify that last one? I have a hard time accepting "try" as
homophonous with "tree".

-- Mark A. Mandel


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 27 16:16:40 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:16:40 -0400
Subject: Article on computer slang in the Times
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.121640.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On the first page of today's Arts section (6/27/00) in the New York Times,
Michiko Kakutani, the Times' current principal book reviewer, writes about
computer slang:

When the Geeks Get Snide
Computer Slang Scoffs at Wetware (the Humans)

This can be downloaded from the Times web site and Nexis/Lexis.  She cites
Gareth's Jargon Watch and other apparently reputable sources, both on-line
and dead-tree.

larry


From jlyons at NETMARKETGROUP.COM  Tue Jun 27 16:25:59 2000
From: jlyons at NETMARKETGROUP.COM (Lyons, Jennifer M)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:25:59 -0400
Subject: English words for @
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.122559.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone else noticed people using @ to mean "about" or "approximately"?
I'd like to know where this usage comes from, since it's a pet peeve of mine
:)

Jen


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Tue Jun 27 16:34:52 2000
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:34:52 +0100
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <8525690B.0057162A.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.173452.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:

}Dale Coye writes:
}
}>>>>>
}When I do something similar with my students (who are 99% New Jerseyans) I
}ask them to chose someone from their own generation, parents generation, and
}grandparents-- all native New Jerseyans.    Changes are evident in some words
}(the increasing use of 'try and' vs. 'try to',  of the /ai/ pronunciation of
}either at the expense of /i:/ are particularly dramatic.
}<<<<<
}
}Would you clarify that last one? I have a hard time accepting "try" as
}homophonous with "tree".
}
}-- Mark A. Mandel
}

Perhaps that should read :
>>>of the /ai/ pronunciation of "either" <<<

--Aa

________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                  Departments of English Language and
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron       Theoretical & Applied  Linguistics

"MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Jun 27 18:01:20 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:01:20 -0700
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.110120.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>
> Who wants to be a turtle?

Are you a turtle?


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Jun 27 18:04:13 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:04:13 -0700
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.110413.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bob,
A tip from someone who used to make these dental damaging delights - if the
mixture is not hardening into the cookie-like shapes, scrape everything back
into the pan, and reheat with a very small amount of cream (can be
half-and-half, as I recall).  It causes the mixture to harden.
Andrea

Bob Haas wrote:
>
> Hey, Natalie,
>
> Could you use dark brown sugar here?  I might just try this recipe.
>
> bob
>
> > From: Natalie Maynor <maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU>
> > Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:35:35 -0500
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: turtle candy
> >
> > Mama Two's Pralines
> >
> > 2 cups sugar (light brown, if possible)
> > 2 cups granulated sugar
> > 1 small can evaporated milk
> > 1 cup water
> > 2 tablespoons white syrup
> > 1/2 teaspoon soda
> > 2 teaspoons vanilla
> > 2 tablespoons butter
> > 1 cup pecans (whote)
> >
> > Blend together milk, water, soda, and syrup.  Blend well or milk
> > will curdle.  Stir in mixed brown and white sugar.  Cook to soft
> > ball stage.  Remove from fire and beat until light brown.  Put in
> > vanilla, then butter, and, last, pecans.  Drop on wax paper and
> > let cool.  Makes about 24 good-sized patties.


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun 27 18:20:57 2000
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:20:57 -0400
Subject: Article on computer slang in the Times
In-Reply-To: <v04011704b57e82fb78bd@[130.132.116.12]>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.142057.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:16:40 -0400
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Article on computer slang in the Times
>
> On the first page of today's Arts section (6/27/00) in the New York Times,
> Michiko Kakutani, the Times' current principal book reviewer, writes about
> computer slang:
>
> When the Geeks Get Snide
> Computer Slang Scoffs at Wetware (the Humans)
>
> This can be downloaded from the Times web site and Nexis/Lexis.  She cites
> Gareth's Jargon Watch and other apparently reputable sources...

Well damn me with faint praise :-)

The piece is not bad, but she misses one important component in this
lexicon: HUMOR! As I point out in Jargon Watch, and when talking about
online slang, a lot of this language (especially the material compiled in my
column and book) is not used in daily conversation, but more often as a
water cooler punch line -- as a way of getting a laugh and calling attention
to our new "wired" condition. I don't think there are many people, deep geek
or otherwise, who use terms like "bio-break" or "404" in everyday speech.

It is true, as the article makes clear, that these words point to a lot of
issues about what some post-modern academics might call "cyborganization,"
the leaking of human into machine and the accelerated migration of
technology into our lives (and into our flesh). I think that too often,
people looking into the realm of "cyberculture" fail to see the humor, irony
and sophistication with which many of these words are used.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Jun 27 18:18:14 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:18:14 -0700
Subject: Turtles; Horse's Neck
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.111814.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>    The book SCIENTIFIC BAR-TENDING (1884) that I cited for "Manhattan" was
> written by Joseph W. Gibson, but his name did not appear on the cover.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------------------
> TURTLES
>
> "I can't see me loving nobody but you."
> --TURTLES, "Happy Together."
>
>    From the TRIED AND TRUE COOK BOOK (First Methodist Church, Gonzales,
> Texas, 1961), pg. 114:
>
>      _TURTLES_
> 4 1/2 Cups sugar
> 1 Stick butter (less 1 in.)
> 1 Large can evaporated milk
> 1 Pound pecans
> 2 Pkgs. chocolate chips
> 1 Jar Mashmallow Creme
>      Boil 7 minutes the sugar, butter and milk, stirring constantly.  Pour
> into mixture of pecans, chocolate chips and Marshmallow Creme.  Drop on foil
> paper to cool.  Makes 3 dozen.

FYI, sticks of butter in Texas (and Connecticut) are longer and thinner than
those in California.  The butter manufacturers state the reason as "regional
preference".


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 27 18:37:55 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:37:55 -0400
Subject: Article on computer slang in the Times
In-Reply-To: <B57E68C9.FA8%garethb2@earthlink.net> from "Gareth Branwyn" at
 Jun 27, 2000 02:20:57 PM
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.143755.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gareth Branwyn writes:

> The piece is not bad, but she misses one important component in this
> lexicon: HUMOR! As I point out in Jargon Watch, and when talking about
> online slang, a lot of this language (especially the material compiled in my
> column and book) is not used in daily conversation, but more often as a
> water cooler punch line -- as a way of getting a laugh and calling attention
> to our new "wired" condition. I don't think there are many people, deep geek
> or otherwise, who use terms like "bio-break" or "404" in everyday speech.
>
> It is true, as the article makes clear, that these words point to a lot of
> issues about what some post-modern academics might call "cyborganization,"
> the leaking of human into machine and the accelerated migration of
> technology into our lives (and into our flesh). I think that too often,
> people looking into the realm of "cyberculture" fail to see the humor, irony
> and sophistication with which many of these words are used.

I think this article, as so many about slang or vocabulary, suffers
greatly from an uncritical acceptance of glossaries or dictionaries
as an accurate representation of the subcultures that spawned their
language. Once one has (incorrectly) accepted this fact, it leads to
the even greater error that the words must shed some light on the
subculture.

This annoys me so much I might actually write in about it. Nowhere
does Kakutani suggest that she has actually spoken to computer
people about this language, or anything like that--she's _just_
writing about dictionaries as if they mean something a lot deeper
than they do in this case.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun 27 18:47:46 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:47:46 -0700
Subject: turtle candy
In-Reply-To: <3958EC9D.D0F0C119@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.114746.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Could I substitute 1% milk, to make it low-fat?  (Just asking:-)

--On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 11:04 AM -0700 "A. Vine" <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> wrote:

> Bob,
> A tip from someone who used to make these dental damaging delights - if
> the mixture is not hardening into the cookie-like shapes, scrape
> everything back into the pan, and reheat with a very small amount of
> cream (can be half-and-half, as I recall).  It causes the mixture to
> harden.
> Andrea
>
> Bob Haas wrote:
>>
>> Hey, Natalie,
>>
>> Could you use dark brown sugar here?  I might just try this recipe.
>>
>> bob
>>
>> > From: Natalie Maynor <maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU>
>> > Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:35:35 -0500
>> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> > Subject: Re: turtle candy
>> >
>> > Mama Two's Pralines
>> >
>> > 2 cups sugar (light brown, if possible)
>> > 2 cups granulated sugar
>> > 1 small can evaporated milk
>> > 1 cup water
>> > 2 tablespoons white syrup
>> > 1/2 teaspoon soda
>> > 2 teaspoons vanilla
>> > 2 tablespoons butter
>> > 1 cup pecans (whote)
>> >
>> > Blend together milk, water, soda, and syrup.  Blend well or milk
>> > will curdle.  Stir in mixed brown and white sugar.  Cook to soft
>> > ball stage.  Remove from fire and beat until light brown.  Put in
>> > vanilla, then butter, and, last, pecans.  Drop on wax paper and
>> > let cool.  Makes about 24 good-sized patties.



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From pds at VISI.COM  Tue Jun 27 23:55:24 2000
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:55:24 -0500
Subject: turtle candy
In-Reply-To: <39583ADA.947FB0C6@corn.cso.niu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.185524.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:25 AM 6/27/2000 -0500, Mike Salovesh wrote:
>I had the impression that both Turtles and Pixies were exclusive trade
>marks,
. . .
>I know that Nestl? makes a product called "Turtles" because I have an
>example in front of me.

I have an empty box of Nestl?'s Turtles that claims them to be from the
"Original DeMets recipe."  In fact, by my increasingly unreliable
recollection, Nestl?'s ownership of Turtles is relatively recent.  We've
been boycotting Nestl? since the '70s, but gave up Turtles just a few years
ago.  [My friends only go down to the School of the Americas and get
themselves arrested.]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Wed Jun 28 00:05:45 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:05:45 -0700
Subject: turtle candy
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.170545.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Russell Stover produces Turtles, but they might call them something like "Pecan
delights".
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Kid" by Aardman Animation


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 28 01:21:25 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:21:25 -0700
Subject: whole nine yards
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.182125.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

for a friend who's not on this list (and is not a linguist,
linguist-wannabe, or even linguistics-hanger-on), i'm asking
two questions, a general one and a particular one.  i think
we might have discussed the general question here.  i'm almost
positive we've discussed the specific question here, but i find
nothing on it in the archives or in the faq.

so i'm sort of embarrassed to be asking.  anyway...

1.  are there any reliable compendia of phrase origins, with
reasonably broad coverage?  something you would recommend to
someone like my friend?  (i have a couple of the old funk volumes -
A Word in Your Ear, and A Hog on Ice - and of course a fair number
of phrases are treated in unabridged dictionaries, in DARE, in
lighter, etc., but i don't have anything that would suit my
friend's needs.  but then phrase origins is a topic way way off
my academic interests.)

2.  specifically, what about THE WHOLE NINE YARDS?  the ADS blurb
for its faq mentions the expression, but then i found nothing in
the faq about it.  (this could well be an incompetence in my web
mastery, of course.)  is there a good discussion of this particular
expression, especially a discussion someplace accessible to the
non-academic?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From hstahlke at GW.BSU.EDU  Wed Jun 28 02:21:44 2000
From: hstahlke at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:21:44 -0500
Subject: whole nine yards
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.212144.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold,

I can't help you on the source for phrase origins, beyond suggesting the legal series that's been around for at least a century, Words and Phrases, but that will address only those that have been adjudicated and may not deal with origins.

As to "the whole nine yards," the best explanation I've found is that the ammunition belts for a WWII Spitfire were nine yards long.  If a pilot emptied his magazines in a dog fight, he had shot the whole nine yards.  I can't give you a source for this.

Herb Stahlke

<<< zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  6/27  8:35p >>>
for a friend who's not on this list (and is not a linguist,
linguist-wannabe, or even linguistics-hanger-on), i'm asking
two questions, a general one and a particular one.  i think
we might have discussed the general question here.  i'm almost
positive we've discussed the specific question here, but i find
nothing on it in the archives or in the faq.

so i'm sort of embarrassed to be asking.  anyway...

1.  are there any reliable compendia of phrase origins, with
reasonably broad coverage?  something you would recommend to
someone like my friend?  (i have a couple of the old funk volumes -
A Word in Your Ear, and A Hog on Ice - and of course a fair number
of phrases are treated in unabridged dictionaries, in DARE, in
lighter, etc., but i don't have anything that would suit my
friend's needs.  but then phrase origins is a topic way way off
my academic interests.)

2.  specifically, what about THE WHOLE NINE YARDS?  the ADS blurb
for its faq mentions the expression, but then i found nothing in
the faq about it.  (this could well be an incompetence in my web
mastery, of course.)  is there a good discussion of this particular
expression, especially a discussion someplace accessible to the
non-academic?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 28 02:20:31 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:20:31 -0400
Subject: whole nine yards
In-Reply-To: <200006280121.SAA16076@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.222031.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Arnold Zwicky wrote:

> 1.  are there any reliable compendia of phrase origins, with
> reasonably broad coverage?  something you would recommend to
> someone like my friend?  (i have a couple of the old funk volumes -
> A Word in Your Ear, and A Hog on Ice - and of course a fair number
> of phrases are treated in unabridged dictionaries, in DARE, in
> lighter, etc., but i don't have anything that would suit my
> friend's needs.  but then phrase origins is a topic way way off
> my academic interests.)

The OED is a reliable compendium of phrase origins, in the sense that it
usually sets forth the earliest known evidence of a phrase's usage.  It is
reliable in another sense as well, that it usually does not attempt to
explain why the phrase arose, thus avoiding the erroneous speculation that
everyone else loves to concoct, but this virtue tends to be frustrating to
readers who crave creation-myths.  Assuming that the OED is not what your
friend would want, then the answer is no, there are no reliable compendia
of phrase origins.  Those works that do exist, such as those by the
Morrises, Ciardi, Hendrickson, etc., are for the most part terrible.

> 2.  specifically, what about THE WHOLE NINE YARDS?  the ADS blurb
> for its faq mentions the expression, but then i found nothing in
> the faq about it.  (this could well be an incompetence in my web
> mastery, of course.)  is there a good discussion of this particular
> expression, especially a discussion someplace accessible to the
> non-academic?

I believe that Jesse's Word of the Day, by our own Jesse Sheidlower, has a
good discussion of this.

Fred Shapiro


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 28 02:59:42 2000
From: faber at POP.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:59:42 -0400
Subject: whole nine yards
In-Reply-To: <s9591aee.046@gw.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.225942.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:21 PM -0500 6/27/2000, Herb Stahlke wrote, ostensibly about Re:
whole nine yards:
>Arnold,
>
>I can't help you on the source for phrase origins, beyond suggesting
>the legal series that's been around for at least a century, Words
>and Phrases, but that will address only those that have been
>adjudicated and may not deal with origins.
>
>As to "the whole nine yards," the best explanation I've found is
>that the ammunition belts for a WWII Spitfire were nine yards long.
>If a pilot emptied his magazines in a dog fight, he had shot the
>whole nine yards.  I can't give you a source for this.
>
For some reason, this kind of word-and-phrase origin question pops up
on the alt.folklore.urban newsgroup with a fair degree of regularity
("rule of thumb" is another perennial). Most of the discussion
(which, despite being one of the few linguists participating, I tend
to skip over fairly quickly) consists in demonstrating that, in the
present instance, the use of the phrase is attested well prior to
WWII. (Of course, there's the countervailing trend that wants to
accept any just-so-story etymology profferred, no matter how
implausible.) From the afu faq:

>T. There is no good etymology for the phrase "The whole nine yards."
>T.Suggestions have included: Volume in a concrete mixer, coal truck,
>or a wealthy person's grave; amount of cloth in a man's custom-made
>(i.e., "bespoke") suit, sports games, funeral shroud, kilt, in a
>bolt of cloth, square area in a ship's sails, and volume in a
>soldier's pack. In the last year or so, the WWII fighter plane ammo
>belt theory has come back in vogue.

Here, "T" means "true beyond a reasonable doubt" and polarity
matters. This entry was probably written in the mid-90s.

Alice
--
Alice Faber                                       tel. (203) 865-6163
Haskins Laboratories                              fax  (203) 865-8963
270 Crown St           new improved email: faber at pop.haskins.yale.edu
New Haven, CT 06511    old email, if you must: faber at haskins.yale.edu


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Jun 28 02:36:43 2000
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:36:43 -0500
Subject: National Geographic
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.213643.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The July issue of _National Geographic_ arrived today and, in the back,
there is a "Department" called CartoGraphic. This month's column is on
"America's Pathcwork of Colloquiamisms". It shows distributions of
pronunciations of greasy, words for harmonica, thunderstorms, and sandlot
baseball. It mentions DARE, and Fred Cassidy.

Barbara Need
UChicago Linguistics


From dcoles at HOME.COM  Wed Jun 28 06:15:42 2000
From: dcoles at HOME.COM (dcoles)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:15:42 -0700
Subject: That @ symbol
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUN.2000.231542.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I learned as a kid to read "3 packages @ $1 = $3," which was spoken as follows:
"three packages at one dollar each equals three dollars."
So the @ symbol included both "at" and "each" in its meaning - otherwise, it would have been spoken, "three packages at one dollar equals three dollars." 
My question is, is there such a thing as a 'phrasal' symbol? I've always just called @ the at/each thing.
Also, to Jennifer Lyons - I'm with you on the "approximately" or "about" peeve!
Cheers,
Devon Coles 
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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 28 06:28:15 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 02:28:15 EDT
Subject: See you later (_i.e._, ta-ta, farewell, auf wiedersehn, goodbye)
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.022815.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SEE YOU LATER

    The RHHDAS has "later" and insists that "see you later" is jazz slang.  A
1922 "See youse later" citation is given.  I haven't checked the MOA or
American Memory yet.
    This is from the NEW YORK DISPATCH, 31 May 1885, "High-School Slang," pg.
7, col. 6:

     "I just met Mac Downley down on the av," murmured the first girl.
    "Do you know I think he's a regular gillie?"
     "You bet!"
     "My, though, don't he think he's an awful swell?"
     "Well, I should smile--he takes the belt."
     "I wish you wouldn't say 'takes the belt,' Floy.  Don't you know that's
a regular chestnut, and none of the girls in our gang use it any more?"
     "Well, you needn't get so huffy about it.  One can't keep up the
procession in all the latest wrinkles."
     "We had a jim-dandy time at the party last night, didn't we?"
     "Well, I should snicker to smile!  Did you catch on to the dude I
mashed?"
     "Well I should blush to murmur.  He's awfully jolly."
     "He was regular peaches.  I dropped to his racket the first time he
pulled his handkerchief on me."
     "Oh, you giddy thing!  First thing you know the old dragon up to the
house will be on to your lead."
     "I don't care.  It's only when he shells out the shekels that I have any
use for him."
     "Say can't you drop down on me to-night up at the house?"
     "Thanks, awfully.  If my mash don't come round, I guess I will come over
and slide down your banisters."
     "Ta ta; see you later."
     "Over the reservoir."
     The giddy creatures disappeared within the gates of the school yard,
while the writer pursued his way pondering upon the boasted education of the
public schools, and the 19th century culture, about which we boast so much.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MISC.

     "Club Sandwich" is in the NYPL Menu Collection, The Windsor (NY), carte
du jour, 1897.  I've got more to read.
     No "chimichanga" in THE GOOD LIFE: NEW MEXICO TRADITIONS AND FOOD (1949,
1982 reprint) by Fabiola Cabeza de Baca Gilbert.  I requested Cleofas M.
Jaramillo's THE GENUINE NEW MEXICO TASTY RECIPES (1939, 1981 reprint), but
the NYPL microfilm is missing.  Anyone know where else it is?


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 28 10:10:07 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 06:10:07 -0400
Subject: whole nine yards
In-Reply-To: <a04320400b57f1877548b@[208.58.251.99]>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.061007.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Alice Faber wrote:

> (which, despite being one of the few linguists participating, I tend
> to skip over fairly quickly) consists in demonstrating that, in the
> present instance, the use of the phrase is attested well prior to
> WWII. (Of course, there's the countervailing trend that wants to

In fact, there is absolutely no attestation of this phrase before the
mid-1960s.  None of the popular theories is backed by any real evidence.

Fred Shapiro


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 28 10:19:07 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 06:19:07 -0400
Subject: See you later (_i.e._, ta-ta, farewell, auf wiedersehn,
 goodbye)
In-Reply-To: <a0.66ffaba.268af4ff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.061907.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>      No "chimichanga" in THE GOOD LIFE: NEW MEXICO TRADITIONS AND FOOD (1949,
> 1982 reprint) by Fabiola Cabeza de Baca Gilbert.  I requested Cleofas M.
> Jaramillo's THE GENUINE NEW MEXICO TASTY RECIPES (1939, 1981 reprint), but
> the NYPL microfilm is missing.  Anyone know where else it is?

Stanford, USC, Brigham Young, UC-Santa Barbara, Los Angeles Public, among
others.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From bern61 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 28 10:29:15 2000
From: bern61 at YAHOO.COM (Bernie Theobald)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 03:29:15 -0700
Subject: Yahoo! Auto Response
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.032915.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fuck off, I am on vacation!!!

--------------------


Original Message:


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_________________________________________________________
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From words at QUINION.COM  Wed Jun 28 10:30:07 2000
From: words at QUINION.COM (Michael Quinion)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:30:07 +0100
Subject: Jukebox / English words for @ / Whole nine yards
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.113007.0100.>

Hey, sudden popularity here!

There's just time for a quick note on recent mentions of World
Wide Words pieces before my departure to Ireland for two weeks:

It was unexpected to have a mini-spate (spat?) of critical
comments on just three words in the piece about 'jukebox': "of
all places", in reference to the first recorded appearance of
the word in Time magazine. Following a disquisition about low-
life, to be suddenly elevated to the stratosphere by a reference
to that august magazine did seem to justify the comment.

I agree that some of the supposedly common words for @,
especially 'whirlpool', are more notable for being quoted in
pieces like mine than for real life usage; that word originated
as a joke anyway, so perhaps that is to be expected. (If I've
fallen into the trap Jesse Sheidlower mentions - uncritical
writing on language - I apologise!)

All those interested in the pieces posted here, plus about 700
others, may like to visit <http://www.quinion.com/words/>, the
home of World Wide Words. You will find many other matters that
could be commented upon ...

> 1.  are there any reliable compendia of phrase origins, with
> reasonably broad coverage?  something you would recommend to
> someone like my friend? ... 2.  specifically, what about THE
> WHOLE NINE YARDS?

Ahem! See <http://www.quinion.com/words/articles/nineyards.htm>.
This is basically a pull-together of what is known, plus a
discussion of why most of the theories are rubbish. The 27ft of
WW2 aircraft machine-gun ammo seems to be the best bet as the
origin, but I'm not putting money on it ...

Members of this list may also like to note for future reference
that my mailings contain the following tagline:

* WORLD WIDE WORDS is copyright (c) Michael B Quinion 2000. You
  may reproduce this mailing in whole or in part in other free
  media provided that you acknowledge the source and quote the
  Web address of <http://www.quinion.com/words/>.


--
Michael Quinion
World Wide Words
<words at quinion.com>
<http://www.quinion.com/words/>


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 28 10:56:09 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 06:56:09 -0400
Subject: whole nine yards
In-Reply-To: <200006280121.SAA16076@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.065609.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I see that Peter Tamony had material on "the whole nine yards."  Has
anyone ever looked at this?  Barry?  Jesse?



Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Wed Jun 28 11:56:37 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:56:37 -0400
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.075637.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Aaron E. Drews" <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK> writes:

>>>>>
}Dale Coye writes:
}>>>>>
}    [...]     Changes are evident in some words
}(the increasing use of 'try and' vs. 'try to',  of the /ai/ pronunciation of
}either at the expense of /i:/ are particularly dramatic.
}<<<<<
}
}Would you clarify that last one? I have a hard time accepting "try" as
}homophonous with "tree".

Perhaps that should read :
>>>of the /ai/ pronunciation of "either" <<<

<<<<<

Ah HA! Thank you. (Daybreak over Marblehead...)

Interesting, here, that I find myself using /ai/ more and more in "either" and
"neither" (especially in songs I write), which I used to scorn.

-- Mark


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 28 12:29:29 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:29:29 -0400
Subject: New Girl Network; Paper of Record
In-Reply-To: <29.6f24bbd.2687ef45@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.082929.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>      The cover story in NEW YORK magazine, 18 July 1977:
>
> _No News Is Bad News_
> _At the New York Times_
> Why Your Newspaper of Record Is Getting Bigger, Not Better.

"Newspaper of record" has a legal meaning slightly different from the
sense used when the New York Times is said to be a newspaper of record,
i.e., in legal usage it means a newspaper where official notices are
printed. In this sense it appears in a 1967 case on Lexis.

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From Dfcoye at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 28 13:00:22 2000
From: Dfcoye at AOL.COM (Dfcoye at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:00:22 EDT
Subject: summer project-DARE pairs
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.090022.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/27/2000 9:35:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK writes:

<< }When I do something similar with my students (who are 99% New Jerseyans) I
 }ask them to chose someone from their own generation, parents generation, and
 }grandparents-- all native New Jerseyans.    Changes are evident in some
words
 }(the increasing use of 'try and' vs. 'try to',  of the /ai/ pronunciation of
 }either at the expense of /i:/ are particularly dramatic.
 }<<<<<
 }
 }Would you clarify that last one? I have a hard time accepting "try" as
 }homophonous with "tree".
 }
 }-- Mark A. Mandel
 }

 Perhaps that should read :
 >>>of the /ai/ pronunciation of "either" <<< >>


Thanks Aaron-- that's what I meant.

Dale Coye


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Wed Jun 28 13:27:10 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:27:10 -0400
Subject: Agatite
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.092710.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This was posted to ANS-L, the American Name Society list, by Dennis McClendon
(address below). Please reply to ans-l at listserv.binghamton.edu, not to me.

---------------------- Forwarded by Mark Mandel/Dragon Systems USA on 06/28/2000
09:24 AM ---------------------------

>Jane Messenger wrote:
>
>> I have had a gentleman request the definition/origin of the name "Agatite."
>> There is a road in Illinois and was a town in Texas named this.

No one seems to know the origin of the Chicago streetname "Agatite."

Don Hayner and Tom McNamee in their 1986 book _ Streetwise Chicago: A
History of Chicago Street Names,_ write "This street's name is a mystery.
'Agatite' apparently is not a word, and there seems to be no famous,
infamous, or obscure person by that name in Chicago history. It may be a
misspelling of 'apatite,' a calcium phosphate found in teeth and bones. Or,
it may be a layman's variation on the mineral name 'agate.'  One common
explanation, that agatite is a type of tree, appears to be false.

The preface goes even further:

"Nobody in Chicago, at least nobody we know, knows how Agatite Street got
its name. Heaven knows, we tried to find out.

"We began our search at City Hall, where the Department of Maps and Plats
maintains an index card file on street names. According to the index card
for Agatite Street, agatite is a type of tree, more commonly called the
'pea tree,' indigenous to the West Indies. . . the Chicago Historical
Society . . . card file . . . offered the same explanation, word for word.
. . A taxonomist [at the Morton Arboretum], after digging through several
authoritative volumes, assured us that agatite is in no way a type of tree.
'Sounds more like a rock to me,' he said.

"Good enough. We phoned the Department of Geology at the University of
Chicago. A geologist there, who himself had often wondered about the origin
of the street name Agatite, said, no, agatite is neither a rock or mineral,
although agate is.  Maybe, our geologist speculated, some non-scientitst in
naming the street had added the common Latin suffix 'ite' to agate. Or
maybe, he ventured further, that same layman had misspelled the word
_apatite_, a calcium phosphate found in teeth and bones."

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Dennis McClendon, Chicago CartoGraphics
dmcclendon at 21stcentury.net


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 28 14:43:39 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:43:39 -0700
Subject: That @ symbol
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.074339.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- dcoles <dcoles at HOME.COM> wrote:
> I learned as a kid to read "3 packages @ $1 = $3,"
> which was spoken as follows:
> "three packages at one dollar each equals three
> dollars."
> So the @ symbol included both "at" and "each" in its
> meaning - otherwise, it would have been spoken,
> "three packages at one dollar equals three dollars."
>
> My question is, is there such a thing as a 'phrasal'
> symbol? I've always just called @ the at/each thing.
> Also, to Jennifer Lyons - I'm with you on the
> "approximately" or "about" peeve!
> Cheers,
> Devon Coles
>
Recollection of seemingly inconsequencial events in my
remote past are rarely clear, but I believe I learned
the use of @ to mean "approximately" before I learned
it also could be used for "at".  As a youth, I deduced
from its usage that @ was an "a" inside a "c", an
abbreviation for "circa", which I understood to mean
"about" or "approximately".



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


From AGCOM.egregory at TAEXGW.TAMU.EDU  Wed Jun 28 15:26:40 2000
From: AGCOM.egregory at TAEXGW.TAMU.EDU (Elizabeth Gregory)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:26:40 -0500
Subject: Agatite
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.102640.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, in _The Sacred Harp_, the song book for Sacred Harp or shape note singing, there is a hymn entitled "New Agatite." The lyrics, attributed to Edward Perronet in 1779, are those of a hymn often called "All Hail the Pow'r of Jesus' Name" in other hymnals.

If this seems a promising line of inquiry, perhaps one of the e-mail lists shown on the fasola.org web site could help with origins of the name.

Elizabeth Gregory
Texas A&M University
e-gregory at tamu.edu


>>> Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM - 6/28/00 8:27 AM >>>
This was posted to ANS-L, the American Name Society list, by Dennis McClendon
(address below). Please reply to ans-l at listserv.binghamton.edu, not to me.

---------------------- Forwarded by Mark Mandel/Dragon Systems USA on 06/28/2000
09:24 AM ---------------------------

>Jane Messenger wrote:
>
>> I have had a gentleman request the definition/origin of the name "Agatite."
>> There is a road in Illinois and was a town in Texas named this.

No one seems to know the origin of the Chicago streetname "Agatite."

Don Hayner and Tom McNamee in their 1986 book _ Streetwise Chicago: A
History of Chicago Street Names,_ write "This street's name is a mystery.
'Agatite' apparently is not a word, and there seems to be no famous,
infamous, or obscure person by that name in Chicago history. It may be a
misspelling of 'apatite,' a calcium phosphate found in teeth and bones. Or,
it may be a layman's variation on the mineral name 'agate.'  One common
explanation, that agatite is a type of tree, appears to be false.

The preface goes even further:

"Nobody in Chicago, at least nobody we know, knows how Agatite Street got
its name. Heaven knows, we tried to find out.

"We began our search at City Hall, where the Department of Maps and Plats
maintains an index card file on street names. According to the index card
for Agatite Street, agatite is a type of tree, more commonly called the
'pea tree,' indigenous to the West Indies. . . the Chicago Historical
Society . . . card file . . . offered the same explanation, word for word.
. . A taxonomist [at the Morton Arboretum], after digging through several
authoritative volumes, assured us that agatite is in no way a type of tree.
'Sounds more like a rock to me,' he said.

"Good enough. We phoned the Department of Geology at the University of
Chicago. A geologist there, who himself had often wondered about the origin
of the street name Agatite, said, no, agatite is neither a rock or mineral,
although agate is.  Maybe, our geologist speculated, some non-scientitst in
naming the street had added the common Latin suffix 'ite' to agate. Or
maybe, he ventured further, that same layman had misspelled the word
_apatite_, a calcium phosphate found in teeth and bones."

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Dennis McClendon, Chicago CartoGraphics
dmcclendon at 21stcentury.net


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 28 15:50:31 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:50:31 -0700
Subject: Agatite
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.085031.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

elizabeth gregory writes:

 >FWIW, in _The Sacred Harp_, the song book for Sacred Harp or shape
 >note singing, there is a hymn entitled "New Agatite." The lyrics,
 >attributed to Edward Perron et in 1779, are those of a hymn often
 >called "All Hail the Pow'r of Jesus' Name" in other hymnals.

 >If this seems a promising line of inquiry, perhaps one of the e-mail
 >lists shown on the fasola.org web site could help with origins of the
 >name.

this will only take you back to the chicago street name.  the tune for
New Agatite (485 in the 1991 Sacred Harp) was written by chicago
shapenote singer ted johnson in 1990 and gets its name from the
street.  compare Wood Street (504), a tune written by chicago
shapenote singer judy hauff in 1986.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From jlyons at NETMARKETGROUP.COM  Wed Jun 28 16:24:48 2000
From: jlyons at NETMARKETGROUP.COM (Lyons, Jennifer M)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:24:48 -0400
Subject: That @ symbol
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.122448.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Interesting!  I only remember being taught that it was a merged way to write
"ad" (like the ampersand is for "et").  We learned circa as either a c. or a
~.  I grew up in Pittsburgh, and never saw anyone use @ to mean
"approximately"; here in Ohio, I have run across a few instances of that
usage.  (If it counts for anything, I was born in 1979.)

Jen

-----Original Message-----
From: James Smith [mailto:jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com]

> Also, to Jennifer Lyons - I'm with you on the
> "approximately" or "about" peeve!
> Cheers,
> Devon Coles
>
Recollection of seemingly inconsequencial events in my
remote past are rarely clear, but I believe I learned
the use of @ to mean "approximately" before I learned
it also could be used for "at".  As a youth, I deduced
from its usage that @ was an "a" inside a "c", an
abbreviation for "circa", which I understood to mean
"about" or "approximately".



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


From Abatefr at CS.COM  Wed Jun 28 17:02:02 2000
From: Abatefr at CS.COM (Frank Abate)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:02:02 EDT
Subject: whole nine yards
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.130202.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not to totally dismiss Fred's comment re phrase origin books, I would say
that "Picturesque Expressions" in its 2nd edition (Gale, about 1985) is a
good one-volume source for many origins of phrases and idioms in English.
The research is derivative, not original, which is to say that OED is given
as a source, as well as other works used.  It does give some of the folk
origins, too, but says as much when doing so.

It is organized by thematic category, with a cross-rerenced list of the
categories at the front, and an alphabetic index in back.  I don't know if
"whole nine yards" is in, as my copy is not at hand.  The book is probably
out of print, but is widely held by libraries.  I know of it because I worked
on it.

Frank Abate


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Wed Jun 28 18:35:38 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:35:38 -0500
Subject: See you later (_i.e._, ta-ta, farewell, auf wiedersehn, good
In-Reply-To: <a0.66ffaba.268af4ff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.133538.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        That "conversation" Barry found in the NEW YORK DISPATCH is
marvellous.

GAT


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Jun 28 20:06:34 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:06:34 -0600
Subject: whole nine yards
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.140634.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    I have treated  "the whole nine yards" in the following working paper:
Gerald Cohen: "_Whole Nine Yards_ --  Most Plausible Derivation Seems To Be
>From WWII fighter pilots' usage." _Comments on Etymology_, Nov. 1998, vol.
28, no. 2, pp.1-4.

   The _San Diego Union Tribune_, March 11, 1997, sec. E, pp.1,3 contains
an article entitled "Show Me the Phrases!" by staff writer Gil Griffin.
Griffin had interviewed Thomas Donahue, a San Diego State University
linguistics professor for the article, and one part particularly caught my
attention:
    '"The whole nine yards" has origins in World War II...It came from
World War II fighter pilots in the South Pacific," Donahue said, recalling
a letter he received about the phrase.
    "The pilots had .50 caliber machine gun ammunition belts that measured
27 feet.  If the pilots fired all their ammo at a target, they said they
let go the whole nine yards.
    "The saying remains, 50--plus years later," Donahue said, "because it's
still an easy way to  express totality."'

     Also, independently of this above-quoted item, I received a note from
one of my neighbors:
   'The machine guns of a North American P-51 Mustang were fed by
ammunition belts that were 27 feet long.  After a pilot emptied his guns on
a target, he would say that he "gave 'em the whole nine yards."'

     There are four other hypotheses advanced for the origin of "the whole
nine yards," but none of those four seems convincing.

------Gerald Cohen



gcohen at umr.edu


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Jun 28 20:40:05 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:40:05 -0400
Subject: That @ symbol
In-Reply-To: <B839FDBC812FD3118ECF00902786098902A71281@exchcloh.cloh.cuc.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.164005.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I learned that "@" means "at . . . apiece."  This was in a typing class that
I was forced to take because I didn't get industrial arts, so I didn't get
to make that tooled saddle that I wanted.  I therefore had no choice but to
become a writer and word mechanic, instead of the cowboy that I think I was
meant to be.  Sigh.

But back to the topic at hand, I've never heard of the "approximate" sense
of "@."  It's incorrect as far as I'm concerned, the result of a wrongheaded
notion that it's better to never ask anyone what something means.  I know
that sounds terribly prescriptivist, but I'm feeling a little testy today.
This wouldn't happen if I were out on the range.

BTW, how widespread is that wrongheaded "approximate" usage for "a"?  Jiminy
Cricket, that symbol really DOES need a name!  Whirlpool is good, so is
whorl.  But I think we need to refer to its usage.  How about at-thingy?
At-whirl?  At-stop?  At-ma?  Atem?  At'em?  At-point?  At-tach??  A-pool?
A-hole?  (The kids would love that one.)  At-twitter?  Ats-a-good-one!
Someone keep it going.

> From: "Lyons, Jennifer M" <jlyons at NETMARKETGROUP.COM>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:24:48 -0400
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: That @ symbol
>
> Interesting!  I only remember being taught that it was a merged way to write
> "ad" (like the ampersand is for "et").  We learned circa as either a c. or a
> ~.  I grew up in Pittsburgh, and never saw anyone use @ to mean
> "approximately"; here in Ohio, I have run across a few instances of that
> usage.  (If it counts for anything, I was born in 1979.)


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Jun 28 20:42:32 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:42:32 -0400
Subject: whole nine yards
In-Reply-To: <v03130301b58007c48180@[131.151.64.116]>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.164232.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This sounds really plausible, and I like it.  But has anyone had a WWII
pilot confirm it?  Some of those guys must still be around.

> From: Gerald Cohen <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:06:34 -0600
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: whole nine yards
>
> Also, independently of this above-quoted item, I received a note from
> one of my neighbors:
> 'The machine guns of a North American P-51 Mustang were fed by
> ammunition belts that were 27 feet long.  After a pilot emptied his guns on
> a target, he would say that he "gave 'em the whole nine yards."'


From vneufeldt at M-W.COM  Wed Jun 28 21:15:14 2000
From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:15:14 -0400
Subject: need DARE pairs
In-Reply-To: <3953BB49.A2E2A4F@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.171514.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would consider 'bureau' and 'chest of drawers' synonymous; a dresser has a
mirror and is generally lower, according to the usage I grew up with (well,
we didn't use 'bureau' much, if at all, but I know the term).

Victoria
Merriam-Webster, Inc. P.O. Box 281
Springfield, MA 01102
Tel: 413-734-3134  ext 124
Fax: 413-827-7262

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of A. Vine
> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 3:32 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: need DARE pairs
>
[SNIP]
> As for bureau/dresser, I would add chest-of-drawers.
>
> Andrea
> --
> Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
> "Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
> --From "Angry Kid" by Aardman Animation
>


From bern61 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 28 21:23:10 2000
From: bern61 at YAHOO.COM (Bernie Theobald)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:23:10 -0700
Subject: Yahoo! Auto Response
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.142310.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fuck off, I am on vacation!!!

--------------------


Original Message:


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From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Thu Jun 29 00:36:40 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:36:40 -0500
Subject: That @ symbol
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.193640.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm happy that this discussion of @ arose and that a couple of people
have mentioned an association with "approximately."  I'd been thinking
for years that I had just dreamed that up at some point in childhood.
Until sometime in middle age -- probably when bitnet came into my life
and I became maynor at msstate, I had thought that @ meant "at about."  I
don't know where my thought on the subject came from originally, but
when I started catching on that it meant "at," I concluded that I had
somehow imagined the "about" part.
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From hstahlke at GW.BSU.EDU  Thu Jun 29 00:42:45 2000
From: hstahlke at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:42:45 -0500
Subject: whole nine yards
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.194245.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The story I read, the one I passed on to Arnold Zwicky, was essentially the same, but set in Britain.  Has anyone ever checked the length of those ammo belts?  Do we have here the common sorts of variants on a myth?  I look forward to reading your paper.

Herb Stahlke

<<< gcohen at UMR.EDU  6/28  2:54p >>>
    I have treated  "the whole nine yards" in the following working paper:
Gerald Cohen: "_Whole Nine Yards_ --  Most Plausible Derivation Seems To Be
>From WWII fighter pilots' usage." _Comments on Etymology_, Nov. 1998, vol.
28, no. 2, pp.1-4.

   The _San Diego Union Tribune_, March 11, 1997, sec. E, pp.1,3 contains
an article entitled "Show Me the Phrases!" by staff writer Gil Griffin.
Griffin had interviewed Thomas Donahue, a San Diego State University
linguistics professor for the article, and one part particularly caught my
attention:
    '"The whole nine yards" has origins in World War II...It came from
World War II fighter pilots in the South Pacific," Donahue said, recalling
a letter he received about the phrase.
    "The pilots had .50 caliber machine gun ammunition belts that measured
27 feet.  If the pilots fired all their ammo at a target, they said they
let go the whole nine yards.
    "The saying remains, 50--plus years later," Donahue said, "because it's
still an easy way to  express totality."'

     Also, independently of this above-quoted item, I received a note from
one of my neighbors:
   'The machine guns of a North American P-51 Mustang were fed by
ammunition belts that were 27 feet long.  After a pilot emptied his guns on
a target, he would say that he "gave 'em the whole nine yards."'

     There are four other hypotheses advanced for the origin of "the whole
nine yards," but none of those four seems convincing.

------Gerald Cohen



gcohen at umr.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 29 00:48:37 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:48:37 EDT
Subject: whole nine yards
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.204837.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I have done much research on "the whole nine yards," but have come up
empty.  I think I had looked through Tamony's papers a few years ago.
   I found the "nine yards of cloth" that's in the RHHDAS.
   There are several things that disturb me about the WWII origin.  The time
gap is a big one.  "Nine yards" is first cited in the mid-1960s.  I went to
the Military College in Carlysle, PA last year (if anyone remembers) to
research military slang lists.  "Nine yards" just wasn't there.
    I also didn't find the phrase in a football context in the 1960s,
although it would assume that in the 1970s.
    I didn't find it in Vietnam War slang.
    There are a few more possibilities I'll try.


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Thu Jun 29 01:54:23 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:54:23 -0400
Subject: English words for @
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.215423.0400.>

Another competitor on the "clitoris" thread.

I believe "the at symbol" would be the enduring name for it. I am reminded of "the number sign" [#] which at  one time was called "the octothorpe,"
by Ma Bell I think, but it apparently didn't take.
=============================

Laurence Horn wrote:

> At 11:43 AM -0400 6/27/00, Paul McFedries wrote:
> >I know I'm competing with the "clitoris" thread on this one, but I've heard
> >various English words used for the @ symbol, including the following:
> >
> >at
> >snail
> >strudel
> >vortex
> >whorl
> >
> >Does anybody know of any others? I tried searching the archives, but
> >received the following error:
> >
> >The requested method POST is not allowed for the URL
> >/excite/AT-adslsearch.cgi.
> >
> >Thanks a bunch.
> >
> >Paul
> >
> Here's Michael Quinion's posting on the subject;sorry for the formating. (Note the alleged popularity of "whirlpool" in this and the other summaries.) The main Linguist List summary on the topic can be found in the archives at the following two references:
>
> LINGUIST List: Vol-7-968. Tue Jul 2 1996. ISSN: 1068-4875. Lines: 1387
> Subject: 7.968, Sum: The @ symbol
>
> LINGUIST List: Vol-7-1177. Tue Aug 20 1996. ISSN: 1068-4875. Lines: 176
> Sum: The @ sign: addendum
>
> Quinion's World Wide Words column, 4/27/00:
>
> WHERE IT'S AT
> Names for a common symbol
>
> The @ symbol has been a central part of the Internet and its forerunners ever since it was chosen to be a
> separator in e-mail addresses by Ray Tomlinson in 1972. From puzzled comments which surface from
> time to time in various newsgroups, it appears the biggest problem for many Net users is deciding what to
> call it. This is perhaps unsurprising, as outside the narrow limits of bookkeeping, invoicing and related
> areas few people use it regularly. Even fewer ever have to find a name for it, so it is just noted mentally as
> something like "that letter a with the curly line round it".
>
> It use in business actually goes back to late medieval times. It was originally a contraction for the Latin
> word ad, meaning "to, toward, at" and was used in accounts or invoices to introduce the price of
> something ("3 yds of lace for my lady @ 1/4d a yard"). In cursive writing, the upright stroke of the 'd'
> curved over to the left and extended around the 'a'; eventually the lower part fused with the 'a' to form one
> symbol. Even after Latin ceased to be commonly understood, the symbol remained in use with the
> equivalent English sense of at. Because business employed it, it was put on typewriter keyboards from
> about 1880 onwards, though it is very noticeable that the designers of several of the early machines didn't
> think it important enough to include it (neither the Sholes keyboard of 1873 nor the early Caligraph one
> had it, giving preference to the ampersand instead), and was carried over to the standard computer character
> sets of EBCDIC and ASCII in the sixties. From there, it has spread out across the networked world,
> perforce even into language groups such as Arabic, Tamil or Japanese which do not use the Roman
> alphabet.
>
> A discussion on the LINGUIST discussion list about names for @ in various languages produced an
> enormous response, from which most of the facts which follow are drawn. Some have just transliterated
> the English name 'at' or 'commercial at' into the local language. What is interesting is that nearly all the
> languages cited have developed colloquial names for it which have food or animal references.
>
> In German, it is frequently called Klammeraffe, 'spider monkey' (you can imagine the monkey's tail),
> though this word also has a figurative sense very similar to that of the English 'leech' ("He grips like a
> leech"). Danish has grisehale, 'pig's tail' (as does Norwegian), but more commonly calls it snabel a, 'a
> (with an) elephant's trunk', as does Swedish, where it is the name recommended by the Swedish Language
> Board. Dutch has apestaart or apestaartje, '(little) monkey's tail' (the 'je' is a diminutive); this turns up
> in Friesian as apesturtsje and in Swedish and Finnish in the form apinanhanta. Finnish also has
> kissanh?nt?, 'cat's tail' and, most wonderfully, miukumauku, 'the miaow sign'. In Hungarian it is kukac,
> 'worm; maggot', in Russian 'little dog', in Serbian majmun, 'monkey', with a similar term in Bulgarian.
> Both Spanish and Portuguese have arroba, which derives from a unit of weight. In Thai, the name
> transliterates as 'the wiggling worm-like character'. Czechs often call it zavin?c which is a rolled-up
> herring or rollmop; the most-used Hebrew term is strudel, from the famous Viennese rolled-up apple
> sweet. Another common Swedish name is kanelbulle, 'cinnamon bun', which is rolled up in a similar way.
>
> The most curious usage, because it seems to have spread furthest from its origins, whatever they are, is
> snail. The French have called it escargot for a long time (though more formal terms are arobase or a
> commercial), but the term is also common in Italian (chiocciola), and has recently appeared in Hebrew
> (shablul), Korean (dalphaengi) and Esperanto (heliko).
>
> In English the name of the sign seems to be most commonly given as at or, more fully, commercial at,
> which is the official name given to it in the international standard character sets. Other names include
> whirlpool (from its use in the joke computer language INTERCAL) and fetch (from FORTH), but these
> are much less common. A couple of the international names have come over into English: snail is fairly
> frequently used; more surprisingly, so is snabel from Danish.
>
> Even so, as far as English is concerned at is likely to remain the standard name for the symbol. But there
> is evidence that the sign itself is moving out from its Internet heartland to printed publications. Recently
> the British newspaper, the Guardian, began to advertise a bookselling service by post, whose title (not
> e-mail address) is "Books at The Guardian". Do I detect a trend?
>
> At least we shall have no problem finding a name for the symbol.
>
> References
> Beeching, Wilfred A Century of the Typewriter British Typewriter Museum Publishing, Bournemouth,
> England, 1990
> Chung, Karen S Linguist List, number 7.968, 2 July 1996. Available from
>
> http://www.emich.edu/~linguist/issues/html/7-968.html
> Hafner, Katie & Lyon, Matthew Where Wizards Stay Up Late: the Origins of the Internet Simon &
> Schuster, 1996


From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM  Thu Jun 29 02:53:27 2000
From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:53:27 -0400
Subject: whole nine yards
In-Reply-To: <s95a553c.082@gw.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.225327.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:42 PM 6/28/00, Herb Stahlke wrote:

>The story I read, the one I passed on to Arnold Zwicky, was essentially
>the same, but set in Britain.  Has anyone ever checked the length of those
>ammo belts?  Do we have here the common sorts of variants on a myth?  I
>look forward to reading your paper.


P-51 Mustangs (there were six variants made, the most prevalent being the
P-51D) had either 4 or 6 .50 caliber guns, and carried a total of,
respectively, 1260 or 1880 rounds.  Figuring maybe ten rounds per foot (the
.50 cal. shells I've seen are pretty big), that's 126/4 = ~31 feet (or
188/6 = ~31 feet) per gun.  In the ballpark, in other words.

But personally I doubt that explanation, if for no other reason than the
time gap.


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Thu Jun 29 02:56:39 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:56:39 -0400
Subject: English words for @
In-Reply-To: <395AAC4E.A68A14A4@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.225639.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Thomas Paikeday wrote:

> I believe "the at symbol" would be the enduring name for it.
> I am reminded of "the number sign" [#] which at
> one time was called "the octothorpe,"
> by Ma Bell I think, but it apparently didn't take.

My first phonetics teacher (and the person responsible for
getting me into lexicography), Richard Spears, always referred
to the # as an octothorpe in phonetics class. I don't know
if that was idiosyncratic, but I've always associated the use
of # in phonetics with the term octothorpe.


--- Steve K.


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Thu Jun 29 05:06:12 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:06:12 -0700
Subject: That @ symbol
In-Reply-To: <200006290036.TAA08188@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUN.2000.220612.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I'm happy that this discussion of @ arose and that a couple of people
>have mentioned an association with "approximately."  I'd been thinking
>for years that I had just dreamed that up at some point in
>childhood.... I concluded that I had
>somehow imagined the "about" part.
>    --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)

Oh me too.  It's always a relief to realize you weren't imagining it.
I had a similar experience with the original "Fantasia."  My father
had taken me to see it when I was about 7 and it was already a rerun.
Years later I'd mention it to friends and no one had heard of it.
I'd say things like, "Remember when Mickey Mouse was the Sourcerer's
Apprentice?  Or the little dancing mushrooms in the Nutcracker Suite?
And they'd look at me like I was nuts.  Of course I may be nuts, but
at least I didn't imagine all of "Fantasia."

Rima


From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM.TW  Thu Jun 29 02:38:37 2000
From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM.TW (Russ McClay)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:38:37 +0800
Subject: English words for @
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.103837.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thomas Paikeday wrote:

> I believe "the at symbol" would be the enduring name for it. I am reminded of "the number sign" [#] which at  one time was called "the octothorpe,"
> by Ma Bell I think, but it apparently didn't take.

I've always called it "the at sign"; similar to the "dollar sign".

Russ


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Thu Jun 29 07:58:50 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:58:50 -0500
Subject: Sick as a parrot?
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.025850.0500.>

Michael Quinion's Web site, WORLD WIDE WORDS
<http://www.quinion.com/words/>, carries an article on "sick as a dog".
The article ends with this comment:

>>>
The modern sick as a parrot recorded from the 1970s - at one time much
overused by British sportsmen as the opposite of over the moon - refers
to a state of deep mental depression rather than physical illness; this
perhaps comes from instances of parrots contracting psittacosis and
passing it to their human owners.

-- from WORLD WIDE WORDS, copyright (c) Michael B Quinion 2000
>>>

Dear Michael Quinion:

"Sick as a parrot" could be a reference to the Monty Python sketch on
the dead parrot. Your suggested date (though a little broad) might be a
hint at confirmation. If Monty Python is the source, then I wouldn't be
surprised that someone described the condition as a state of deep mental
depression.

The phrase would be a reasonable parallel to the classic "We had to bury
him.  Dead, you know."  Its extended form would be something like

"This parrot's just sick.  Deeply depressed. He wants cheering up."

"No, he isn't depressed, he's dead.  You've nailed his feet to the
perch!"

Thank you for mentioning World Wide Words in your recent message to the
American Dialect Society mailing list.  It tempted me into a dive into
your Web site, and I didn't come up for an hour.  I'll be back: it's an
enjoyable experience.

Have fun on your vacation!

-- mike salovesh  <salovesh at niu.edu>   PEACE !!!


From HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU  Thu Jun 29 12:11:58 2000
From: HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:11:58 -0500
Subject: whole nine yards
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.071158.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The test of the British version, of course, is whether the term appears in British sources.  Has anyone searched there?

Herb

>>> Bapopik at AOL.COM 06/28/00 07:48PM >>>
   I have done much research on "the whole nine yards," but have come up
empty.  I think I had looked through Tamony's papers a few years ago.
   I found the "nine yards of cloth" that's in the RHHDAS.
   There are several things that disturb me about the WWII origin.  The time
gap is a big one.  "Nine yards" is first cited in the mid-1960s.  I went to
the Military College in Carlysle, PA last year (if anyone remembers) to
research military slang lists.  "Nine yards" just wasn't there.
    I also didn't find the phrase in a football context in the 1960s,
although it would assume that in the 1970s.
    I didn't find it in Vietnam War slang.
    There are a few more possibilities I'll try.


From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM.TW  Thu Jun 29 12:20:05 2000
From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM.TW (Russ McClay)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:20:05 +0800
Subject: whole nine yards
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.202005.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A few theories here:

http://plateaupress.com.au/wfw/nineyard.htm

Still, no authoritative confirmation of origin.

Russ McClay
Taipei


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 29 14:00:43 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:00:43 EDT
Subject: Applesauce
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.100043.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    The RHHDAS has "applesauce" from 1918, but without a hint of its origin.
    This is from THE GIRL FROM RECTOR'S (Doubleday, Page & Co., Garden CIty,
NY, 1927) by George Rector, pg. 133:

     _THAT APPLE-SAUCE JOKE_
(Pg. 134--ed.)
     There is an expression sweeping America to-day which I heard Corse
Payton use twenty-five years ago.  Chauffeurs (Pg. 135--ed.) toss it at
traffic policemen, traffic policemen catch it in mid-air and hurl it back,
bad boys about it at truant officers, and good little girls shrill it to
their fond parents.  Each granny tells it to grandpa and there isn't much
doubt that grandpa has mumbled it to the manicurist in the barber shop.  That
expression is "apple sauce."  You possibly have used it yourself without
knowing how it originated.  It started with Thatcher, Primrose, and West, who
had one of the greatest minstrel organizations ever assembled.  The
expression "apple sauce" means anything that is old, trite, and out-of-date.
This was the routine of the apple-sauce gag:

     THATCHER:  Mr. Interlocutor, a teacher has twelve pupils and only eleven
apples.
     WEST:  Yes, Mr. Tambo, a teacher has twelve pupils and only eleven
apples.
     THATCHER:  That's right.  Now she wants to give each pupil an equal
share of the apples without cutting the apples.  How does she do it?
     WEST:  Let me see.  A teacher has twelve pupils and only eleven apples.
SHe wants to give each pupil an equal share of the apples without applying a
knife to the fruit.  How does she do it?  I must confess my ignorance.  How
does she do it, Mr. Tambo?
     THATCHER:  She made apple sauce.

     Thatcher used to get a huge laugh from this joke.  Naturally, all the
other rival minstrels grabbed it, used (Pg. 136--ed.)  it, an finally hamered
it into an early grave by too much repetition.  Audiences refused to laugh at
it any more and it was discarded.  So any other joke which is old and no good
is also called apple sauce.  There is something about this expression which
is very satisfying.  When a motorcycle cop tells you that he is going to give
you a ticket, not knowing that you are the mayor's friend, you tell him,
"Apple sauce."  When he hands you the ticket, you tell him, "Apple sauce."
When you tell the judge you were going only two miles an hour, the judge
hands down the verdict of, "Apple sauce."  And when you fork over fifteen
dollars and bounce out of the court room, the little birdies in the trees
seem to be chirping it.  I have never seen anything, outside of a sneak
thief's skeleton key, which seemed to fit so many situations.
     In a previous chapter I spoke about the personnel of my restaurant--the
cooks, the head chefs, the waiters, and the captains.  There was one crew I
forgot to mention, and this outfit was the band of nighthawks operating the
fleet of scooped-out and sea-going hacks.  The scooped-out hack was the open
Victoria, while the sea-going vehicle was the closed hack, more like a
brougham.  Like Robin Hood's band, they were a merry bunch of outlaws who
trimmed the rich--but failed to donate to the poor.  There were fifteen or
twenty outside of Rector's every night, rain or shine.  Their scale of prices
depended on their victim's condition of sobriety and knowledge of geography.
Their tactics originated the (Pg. 137--ed.) famous expression "run-around."
A man who is giving you the run-around is trying to stall you off by using
evasive tactics.

     OED has "run-around" from 1915.
     That applesauce joke was the "Why did the chicken cross the road?" joke
of its time.  The applesauce joke would often be used involving horses,
because everyone knew that horses loved apples.  Some track writer on an
entertainment newspaper would soon call the New York City horse
tracks--whatever.
     Also from THE GIRL FROM RECTOR'S:

Pg. 15:  His vest buttons also were precious stones, and I think that when
remonstrated with for his excessive display of gems, Mr. ("Diamond Jim"--ed.)
Brady remarked, "Them as has 'em wears 'em."  (An early "If you've got it,
flaunt it"?--ed.)

Pg. 68:  In this case, "tub worker" did not mean bending over the week's wash
in the back of a Chinese laundry.  This group of tourists worked the tubs.
The tubs were ocean liners.  Their polish  was as false as the sheen on an
oiled apple.  It could be dropped readily, and in passing their tables I
often overheard such sinister words as "the (Pg. 69--ed.) mouthpiece," "the
big store," "the mob," "the iron theatre," and "the rap."
     This may mean nothing to you unless I explain that the mouthpiece was a
lawyer, the big store was the district attorney's office, the mob was a gang
of crooks, the iron theatre was a jail, and the rap was either an accusation
or a term in jail.  They were not nice lads, but there was no way of
excluding them provided they behaved themselves.  And they always acted very
well in Rector's.

Pg. 73:  ...there is an old saying in New York that the doctors support Wall
Street and the actors support the race track.

Pg. 86:  He would eat his salad with some dandy Camembert cheese, running
south.  By "running south" we meant the cheese was so soft that it had to be
eaten with a spoon instead of a knife.

Pg. 121:  We did not serve many beef sirloins, although Rector's was
responsible for that very popular and well-known dish, the steak a la minute.
 After waiting an hour or so for this order to be served, you might naturally
wonder how it ever got its maiden (Pg. 122--ed.) name of a la minute.  It was
the swiftest steak we served, because it was sliced thin as a wafer and
cooked very quickly.  If timed by reliable handicappers, I think the best we
could have claimed for it was steak a la fifteen minutes.
     Some guests pronounced minute with an accent on the last syllable, which
made it mean very small or even infinitesimal.  These guests were closer to
the truth.  But I refuse to validate that old story about the guest who asked
his waiter to point out his steak and was informed that it was hiding under a
pea.  We were never fortunate enough to get peas of that size.


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 29 14:30:48 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:30:48 -0700
Subject: Applesauce
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.073048.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
....
>  The
> expression "apple sauce" means anything that is old,
> trite, and out-of-date.
> This was the routine of the apple-sauce gag:
>
>      THATCHER:  Mr. Interlocutor, a teacher has
> twelve pupils and only eleven
> apples.
>      WEST:  Yes, Mr. Tambo, a teacher has twelve
> pupils and only eleven
> apples.
>      THATCHER:  That's right.  Now she wants to give
> each pupil an equal
> share of the apples without cutting the apples.  How
> does she do it?
>      WEST:  Let me see.  A teacher has twelve pupils
> and only eleven apples.
> SHe wants to give each pupil an equal share of the
> apples without applying a
> knife to the fruit.  How does she do it?  I must
> confess my ignorance.  How
> does she do it, Mr. Tambo?
>      THATCHER:  She made apple sauce.
>
>      Thatcher used to get a huge laugh from this
> joke.  Naturally, all the
> other rival minstrels grabbed it, used (Pg.
> 136--ed.)  it, an finally hamered
> it into an early grave by too much repetition.

Just my opinion, but if audiences gave a huge laugh to
this use of "applesauce", the word must have already
had a widely known second meaning: the sketch itself
doesn't seem very funny to me unless "applesauce"
already had a meaning of "nonesense" or "horse
feathers" or such.  But then, maybe I'm just jaded to
something that was very fresh and entertaining a
century ago.

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Thu Jun 29 16:08:35 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:08:35 -0400
Subject: octothorpe
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.120835.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Steve K." <stevek at SHORE.NET> writes:

>>>>>
On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Thomas Paikeday wrote:

> I believe "the at symbol" would be the enduring name for it.
> I am reminded of "the number sign" [#] which at
> one time was called "the octothorpe,"
> by Ma Bell I think, but it apparently didn't take.

My first phonetics teacher (and the person responsible for
getting me into lexicography), Richard Spears, always referred
to the # as an octothorpe in phonetics class. I don't know
if that was idiosyncratic, but I've always associated the use
of # in phonetics with the term octothorpe.
<<<<<

I have read that the name was given by a telephone company (Bell, at the time)
engineer who needed a name for the damn thing as a glyph -- a character, apart
from any significance that might be attached to it -- and combined "octo-" for
the number of "arms" it has with "Thorpe", his own surname. But I can't give a
cite.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From ookpik at MINDSPRING.COM  Thu Jun 29 16:44:31 2000
From: ookpik at MINDSPRING.COM (J. Katherine Rossner)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:44:31 -0400
Subject: octothorpe
In-Reply-To: <8525690D.00589E0C.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.124431.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:08 PM 6/29/00 -0400, Mark Mandel wrote:

>I have read that the name was given by a telephone company (Bell, at the time)
>engineer who needed a name for the damn thing as a glyph -- a character, apart
>from any significance that might be attached to it -- and combined "octo-" for
>the number of "arms" it has with "Thorpe", his own surname. But I can't give a
>cite.

I've read (possibly in William Safire's column?) that the "thorpe" part
refers not to a surname but to the "fields" into which the octothorpe is
divided.  Though that doesn't make sense, unless the central square is
omitted...

Katherine
--
Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche is chaunge
Withinne a thousand yere, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem, and yit they spake hem so.
        - Chaucer, "Troilus and Criseyde"


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Thu Jun 29 18:45:18 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:45:18 -0500
Subject: octothorpe
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000629124309.0099e6f0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.134518.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Around here, the # is called the "Pound key", which makes no sense to
me, since I had to be trained not to look for the swung L with a
stroke through the ascender -- in short, the symbol for English
currency.  Personally, I have been calling it the tictactoe sign,
being ignorant of an official name.

GAT


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Thu Jun 29 18:55:26 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:55:26 -0500
Subject: Some of my best friends are Jews
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000629124309.0099e6f0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.135526.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On behalf of a friend on the faculty here:

When did the expression "some of my best friend are jews" come to be
offered as the standard marker of a speaker who was at least
marginally prejudiced.  (Or, the parallel "Some of my best friends
are colored.")  Robert Gessner, a mentor of hers 60+ years ago,
published a book with this title in 1936.  Given that its subject is
anti-semitism in Europe of the time, I suppose that the title was
taken ironically, that the expression was already recognized as
usually leading to a "but . . . ."  She'd like confirmation.

GAT


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Jun 29 18:05:09 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:05:09 -0700
Subject: octothorpe
In-Reply-To: <147DD5A058C@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.110509.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Didn't anybody but me ever call it the "number sign" (as in #1, #5, #57,
etc.)?

Peter Mc.

--On Thu, Jun 29, 2000 1:45 PM -0500 GEORGE THOMPSON
<thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU> wrote:

> Around here, the # is called the "Pound key", which makes no sense to
> me, since I had to be trained not to look for the swung L with a
> stroke through the ascender -- in short, the symbol for English
> currency.  Personally, I have been calling it the tictactoe sign,
> being ignorant of an official name.
>
> GAT



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Jun 29 18:09:50 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:09:50 -0700
Subject: octothorpe
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.110950.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes.  I do.  And FWIW, the International Organization for Standardization (ISO)
calls it NUMBER SIGN.  Alternate names are: pound sign, hash, crosshatch,
octothorpe.  ISO calls @ "COMMERCIAL AT" with no alternate names.


"Peter A. McGraw" wrote:
>
> Didn't anybody but me ever call it the "number sign" (as in #1, #5, #57,
> etc.)?
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> --On Thu, Jun 29, 2000 1:45 PM -0500 GEORGE THOMPSON
> <thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU> wrote:
>
> > Around here, the # is called the "Pound key", which makes no sense to
> > me, since I had to be trained not to look for the swung L with a
> > stroke through the ascender -- in short, the symbol for English
> > currency.  Personally, I have been calling it the tictactoe sign,
> > being ignorant of an official name.
> >
> > GAT
>
> ****************************************************************************
>                                Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 29 18:23:22 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:23:22 -0400
Subject: Missing books on drinks
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.142322.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DRINK BOOKS

Naber, Alfs and Brune
CATALOGUE AND BARTENDERS' GUIDE.  HOW TO MIX DRINKS.
Schmidt Label & Lith. Co., San Francisco, 1884
  Only Cal-Berkeley has this, both the book and a microfilm of it (according to OCLC).  I requested inter-library loan.  Does this have Martini???

McDonough, Patrick
McDONOUGH'S BAR-KEEPER'S GUIDE, AND GENTLEMEN'S SIDEBOARD COMPANION
Post-Express Print, Rochester, NY, 1883
   Missing from the LOC!  Where else is it?

GREAT HEADS AND HOW TO CURE THEM
n.p., 1883
   Missing from the LOC!

Winter, George
HOW TO MIX DRINKS.  BAR KEEPERS' HANDBOOK.  WITH LATE AMENDMENTS TO THE EXCISE LAWS.
New York, 1884
   Missing from the LOC!

Barnes, ALbert
THE COMPLETE BARTENDER
Crawford & CO., Philadelphia, 1884
   Missing from the LOC!

   I'll get to my missing Mexican cookbooks later.


From funex79 at SLONET.ORG  Thu Jun 29 18:52:28 2000
From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:52:28 -0700
Subject: Some of my best friends are Jews
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.115228.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: "GEORGE THOMPSON" <thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: Some of my best friends are Jews


> On behalf of a friend on the faculty here:
>
> When did the expression "some of my best friend are jews" come to be
> offered as the standard marker of a speaker who was at least
> marginally prejudiced.  (Or, the parallel "Some of my best friends
> are colored.")  Robert Gessner, a mentor of hers 60+ years ago,
> published a book with this title in 1936.  Given that its subject is
> anti-semitism in Europe of the time, I suppose that the title was
> taken ironically, that the expression was already recognized as
> usually leading to a "but . . . ."  She'd like confirmation.
>
> GAT
>


From funex79 at SLONET.ORG  Thu Jun 29 18:53:37 2000
From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:53:37 -0700
Subject: Some of my best friends are Jews
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.115337.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

She might get information on that from the Anti-defamation League of B'nai
Brith.
----- Original Message -----
From: "GEORGE THOMPSON" <thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: Some of my best friends are Jews


> On behalf of a friend on the faculty here:
>
> When did the expression "some of my best friend are jews" come to be
> offered as the standard marker of a speaker who was at least
> marginally prejudiced.  (Or, the parallel "Some of my best friends
> are colored.")  Robert Gessner, a mentor of hers 60+ years ago,
> published a book with this title in 1936.  Given that its subject is
> anti-semitism in Europe of the time, I suppose that the title was
> taken ironically, that the expression was already recognized as
> usually leading to a "but . . . ."  She'd like confirmation.
>
> GAT
>


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Thu Jun 29 19:02:53 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:02:53 -0400
Subject: octothorpe
In-Reply-To: <8525690D.00589E0C.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.150253.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:

> I have read that the name was given by a telephone company (Bell, at the time)
> engineer who needed a name for the damn thing as a glyph -- a character, apart
> from any significance that might be attached to it -- and combined "octo-" for
> the number of "arms" it has with "Thorpe", his own surname. But I can't give a
> cite.
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel

Indeed, one James Edward Oglethorpe, per our etymologist's research.

The octo comes by way of octal, an eight-point pin used in electronic
connections (due to the eight points of the symbol).

--- Steve K.


From vneufeldt at M-W.COM  Thu Jun 29 19:06:07 2000
From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:06:07 -0400
Subject: octothorpe
In-Reply-To: <395B90EE.C45FFD71@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.150607.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've noticed that "number sign" is what you hear in voicemail instructions
("press . . . followed by the number sign")  in Canada -- but I don't know
if that is true across the country.  Which makes more sense to me too than
"pound sign", since it is much more commonly used as a number sign.  In
fact, its use as a sign for pound (meaning weight, not pound Sterling) must
be pretty well obsolete -- at least I can't recall seeing it, except in a
historical context.

Victoria


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of A. Vine
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 2:10 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: octothorpe
>
>
> Yes.  I do.  And FWIW, the International Organization for
> Standardization (ISO)
> calls it NUMBER SIGN.  Alternate names are: pound sign, hash, crosshatch,
> octothorpe.  ISO calls @ "COMMERCIAL AT" with no alternate names.
>
>
> "Peter A. McGraw" wrote:
> >
> > Didn't anybody but me ever call it the "number sign" (as in #1, #5, #57,
> > etc.)?


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Thu Jun 29 19:20:14 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:20:14 -0400
Subject: octothorpe
In-Reply-To: <000001bfe1fd$14806ec0$282b62ce@vneufeldt.m-w.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.152014.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Victoria Neufeldt wrote:

> I've noticed that "number sign" is what you hear in voicemail instructions
> ("press . . . followed by the number sign")  in Canada -- but I don't know
> if that is true across the country.  Which makes more sense to me too than
> "pound sign", since it is much more commonly used as a number sign.  In
> fact, its use as a sign for pound (meaning weight, not pound Sterling) must
> be pretty well obsolete -- at least I can't recall seeing it, except in a
> historical context.

I've seen it in one place only -- on boxes of nails. Nails can be
classified by their weight (per 100, I believe), so you'll see 12 # nails
(or what have you) on the box, in addition to their length. I thought that
was pretty cool the first time I saw that. Check it out the next time
you're in a hardware store; I haven't bought nails in quite a while.


--- Steve K.


From nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 29 20:48:12 2000
From: nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET (Nancy Elliott)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:48:12 -0700
Subject: octothorpe
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0006291516580.9750-100000@shell3.shore.net>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.134812.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Another name for #

I call it the "sharp sign."


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Jun 29 21:49:15 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:49:15 -0700
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
In-Reply-To: <395796B6.7A898E7B@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.144915.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was somewhat surprised at Andrea's posting.  To my knowledge, Oregon is
the only place in the U.S. where this nut is grown, at least commercially,
and to my knowledge it is the only part of the country where it's called a
"filbert" instead of a "hazelnut."

Trying to confirm this, I checked DARE and to my surprise found neither
word.

You can find canned hazelnuts in Oregon stores (even if they were grown in
Oregon), but you'll look in vain for a grower who calls his spread a
"hazelnut orchard"--or at least you'd have looked in vain for such a person
when I was growing up on an Oregon filbert farm.

Just today I ran across a newspaper story about an organization called the
Hazelnut Marketing Board, based in Portland.  Nothing strange about that if
they are trying to market the product nationally, but what was strange was
that the article, from the local paper in Wilsonville, the nearest town to
our family filbert farm, referred to a "local hazelnut grower."  I wonder
if the newspaper writer is an ignorant newcomer.  It's hard to imaging that
the local usage could be changing--it would still seem bizarre for me to
call the nut anything but a filbert when talking to another Oregonian, at
least when referring to the nut when it's still on the tree or on the
ground or being picked.

Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of Oregon?

Peter Mc.


--On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 10:45 AM -0700 Andrea Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> wrote:

> Hmm, how about hazelnuts/filberts?
>
> Greg Pulliam wrote:
>>
>> How about garbanzos/chickpeas?
>> --



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 29 22:31:02 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:31:02 -0700
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.153102.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:
> I was somewhat surprised at Andrea's posting.  To my
> knowledge, Oregon is
> the only place in the U.S. where this nut is grown,
> at least commercially,
> and to my knowledge it is the only part of the
> country where it's called a
> "filbert" instead of a "hazelnut."
>
> Trying to confirm this, I checked DARE and to my
> surprise found neither
> word.
>
> You can find canned hazelnuts in Oregon stores (even
> if they were grown in
> Oregon), but you'll look in vain for a grower who
> calls his spread a
> "hazelnut orchard"--or at least you'd have looked in
> vain for such a person
> when I was growing up on an Oregon filbert farm.
>
> Just today I ran across a newspaper story about an
> organization called the
> Hazelnut Marketing Board, based in Portland.
> Nothing strange about that if
> they are trying to market the product nationally,
> but what was strange was
> that the article, from the local paper in
> Wilsonville, the nearest town to
> our family filbert farm, referred to a "local
> hazelnut grower."  I wonder
> if the newspaper writer is an ignorant newcomer.
> It's hard to imaging that
> the local usage could be changing--it would still
> seem bizarre for me to
> call the nut anything but a filbert when talking to
> another Oregonian, at
> least when referring to the nut when it's still on
> the tree or on the
> ground or being picked.
>
> Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of
> Oregon?
>
> Peter Mc.

My mother, born and raised in Utah, called them
filberts.  I call them hazelnuts: can't explain why
filbert didn't stick to me.



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 29 22:44:06 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:44:06 EDT
Subject: octothorpe
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.184406.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/29/2000 3:49:52 PM, nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET writes:

<<  Another name for #

I call it the "sharp sign." >>

me too--I learned "sharp sign" in music class in 2nd grade, and i learned
"pound sign" in algebra in junior high. But octothope?  That is  new today to
me.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Jun 29 22:35:25 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:35:25 -0700
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.153525.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Peter A. McGraw" wrote:
>
> Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of Oregon?

Well, I'm pretty sure my mother or someone else in Texas used "filbert", because
I didn't really know anyone from Oregon until college.


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Thu Jun 29 22:49:31 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:49:31 -0400
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
In-Reply-To: <395BCF2D.5EEF1D7@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.184931.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Peter A. McGraw" wrote:
>
> Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of Oregon?

I knew filbert as a term in s.e. Texas in the 40s-50s.

Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 29 23:31:59 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:31:59 EDT
Subject: Menu collection stuff
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.193159.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Some stuff from the NYPL's menu collection.

5 November 1881--Delmonico's has "Ragout de terrapin a la Newberg."

13 April 1882--Boston's Parker House served "French Fried Potatoes."

30 November 1905--"New England Chowder" (clam?) is on an unidentified menu.

18 September 1907--The "Waldorf-Astoria Bank of Gastronomy" served "Peches,
Melba."

2 December 1910--R. H. Macy advertised "one of the largest restaurants in the
world--seating capacity 2,500."  The menu included "Clam Chowder, Manhattan,"
"Macy club" (sandwich), "Peach Melba," and "'Hell Fire' Potatoes."

2 December 1910--Memorial Hall of Harvard University served "Clam Chowder,
Manhattan."

9 December 1910--Fifth Avenue Restaurant (23-24 Streets) served "Minced
chicken a la King," "Peaches, Melba," and "Spaghetti a la Caruso."  "Try a
Fifth Avenue cocktail."

26 November 1924--Crescent Athletic Club (Bay Ridge, Brooklyn) served
"Lobster Thermidore."

24 April 1926--Hotel Woodstock (43rd & Broadway) served "Steak Minute."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
EGGS IS EGGS

    The 2 December 1910 menu of the Hotel Grunewald in New Orleans contained
this "special egg bill" (the details of each egg dish were here, but I didn't
copy them all down):

POACHED
Aigre doux, Arlequin, Benedict, Duchesse, Gounod, Matelote, Sicilienne,
Indienne, Grand Duc, Sans Gene, Viennoise, Dumas, Victorian Sardou
SCRAMBLED
Bordelaise, Orleans, Comtesse Uruska, Dreppoise, Dumas, Princesse
SHIRRED
Creole, De Lesseps, Chasseur, Grunewald, Montagnarde, Opera Turbigo, Maison
d'Or, Lorraine, Maximillian, Meyerbeer, Mirabeau, Montmorency
OMELETS
Bayonnaise, Charcutiere, Espagnole, Flamonde, Escarlate, Hongroise, Maitre
d'Hotel, Francaise, Printaniere, Bonne Femme, Lorenzo, Mexicaine, Agnes
Sorrel, Archduc, Clamart, Grand'mere, Massena, Princesse, Parmentier,
Provencale, Dumas, Creole
MISCELLANEOUS
Berlioz, Tripe, Bayonnaise, Du Beurre Noir, Florentine, A la Reine,
Perigourdine, St. Denis, Riverside, Venitienne, Careme


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Jun 30 00:59:58 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:59:58 -0700
Subject: Any of you *not* know another language?
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.175958.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To the esteemed linguists and language experts on this list:

Are there any of you who do *not* know a language other than English?

Yet another snooty "my world is the only world" posting on another list, in case
you were wondering.  But I'm also curious.

Thanks,
Andrea

P.S.  Is anyone interested in a compilation of the responses to writing accents
in English?
--
Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
--From "Angry Kid" by Aardman Animation


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Fri Jun 30 01:14:57 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:14:57 -0700
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
In-Reply-To: <1455285.3171278955@dhcp-218-202-137.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.181457.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of Oregon?

I knew them as filberts in New York - way before I knew them as
hazelnuts.  My mother grew up in NY, my father on the east coast and
Chicago.

Rima


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Jun 30 01:18:03 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:18:03 -0400
Subject: Any of you *not* know another language?
In-Reply-To: <395BF10E.BF7A06BC@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.211803.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, A. Vine wrote:

>>Are there any of you who do *not* know a language other than English?
Yet another snooty "my world is the only world" posting on another list,
in case you were wondering.  But I'm also curious.<<<

I don't understand. Are you claiming to be posting a snooty MWITOW item?
It doesn't sound like you ...

Bethany


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Fri Jun 30 01:37:08 2000
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:37:08 -0700
Subject: Any of you *not* know another language?
In-Reply-To: <395BF10E.BF7A06BC@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.183708.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As a professional translator, it would look very bad on my resume to not
know at least one language besides my mother tongue.

I am always interested in summaries of threads.

Benjamin Barrett
benjamin at btranslations.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On
>Behalf Of A. Vine
>
>To the esteemed linguists and language experts on this list:
>
>Are there any of you who do *not* know a language other than English?
>
>P.S.  Is anyone interested in a compilation of the responses to
>writing accents in English?


From krahnke at LAMAR.ACNS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Fri Jun 30 02:34:02 2000
From: krahnke at LAMAR.ACNS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Karl Krahnke)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:34:02 -0600
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.203402.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I never knew what they were, but my mother always referred to filberts.  I don't
remember hearing hazelnut at all.  My mother was born and raised in SE Michigan
in the early part of the 20th century.

Karl Krahnke
Colorado State University



"Peter A. McGraw" wrote:

> I was somewhat surprised at Andrea's posting.  To my knowledge, Oregon is
> the only place in the U.S. where this nut is grown, at least commercially,
> and to my knowledge it is the only part of the country where it's called a
> "filbert" instead of a "hazelnut."
>
> Trying to confirm this, I checked DARE and to my surprise found neither
> word.
>
> You can find canned hazelnuts in Oregon stores (even if they were grown in
> Oregon), but you'll look in vain for a grower who calls his spread a
> "hazelnut orchard"--or at least you'd have looked in vain for such a person
> when I was growing up on an Oregon filbert farm.
>
> Just today I ran across a newspaper story about an organization called the
> Hazelnut Marketing Board, based in Portland.  Nothing strange about that if
> they are trying to market the product nationally, but what was strange was
> that the article, from the local paper in Wilsonville, the nearest town to
> our family filbert farm, referred to a "local hazelnut grower."  I wonder
> if the newspaper writer is an ignorant newcomer.  It's hard to imaging that
> the local usage could be changing--it would still seem bizarre for me to
> call the nut anything but a filbert when talking to another Oregonian, at
> least when referring to the nut when it's still on the tree or on the
> ground or being picked.
>
> Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of Oregon?
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> --On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 10:45 AM -0700 Andrea Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> wrote:
>
> > Hmm, how about hazelnuts/filberts?
> >
> > Greg Pulliam wrote:
> >>
> >> How about garbanzos/chickpeas?
> >> --
>
> ****************************************************************************
>                                Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From hstahlke at GW.BSU.EDU  Fri Jun 30 03:08:44 2000
From: hstahlke at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:08:44 -0500
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.220844.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My 94-year-old mother, who grew up in Detroit and St. Louis, calls them filberts.  I remember calling them filberts as a child in Michigan, but sometime since I changed to hazelnuts.

Herb Stahlke

<<< dumasb at UTK.EDU  6/29  6:03p >>>
"Peter A. McGraw" wrote:
>
> Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of Oregon?

I knew filbert as a term in s.e. Texas in the 40s-50s.

Bethany


From nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 30 04:32:30 2000
From: nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET (Nancy Elliott)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:32:30 -0700
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
In-Reply-To: <s95bc8f4.008@gw.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.213230.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I heard people in Kansas say filberts (and filiberts) in the 1970s.

Nancy Elliott
Southern Oregon University

> From: Herb Stahlke <hstahlke at GW.BSU.EDU>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:08:44 -0500
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: hazelnuts/filberts
>
> My 94-year-old mother, who grew up in Detroit and St. Louis, calls them
> filberts.  I remember calling them filberts as a child in Michigan, but
> sometime since I changed to hazelnuts.
>
> Herb Stahlke
>
> <<< dumasb at UTK.EDU  6/29  6:03p >>>
> "Peter A. McGraw" wrote:
>>
>> Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of Oregon?
>
> I knew filbert as a term in s.e. Texas in the 40s-50s.
>
> Bethany
>
>


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Fri Jun 30 04:53:14 2000
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:53:14 -0500
Subject: Any of you *not* know another language?
In-Reply-To: <395BF10E.BF7A06BC@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUN.2000.235314.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I took Spanish for five years between high school, college, and grad
school, including History of the Spanish Language and Structure of
Modern Spanish.  But do I *know* Spanish?  Probably not.  I know a
lot about it, but I can't understand Spanish speakers and I can't
produce a lick of it myself.

Does this mean I lose my -linguist- credentials?




>To the esteemed linguists and language experts on this list:
>
>Are there any of you who do *not* know a language other than English?
>
>Yet another snooty "my world is the only world" posting on another
>list, in case
>you were wondering.  But I'm also curious.
>
>Thanks,
>Andrea
>
>P.S.  Is anyone interested in a compilation of the responses to
>writing accents
>in English?
>--
>Andrea Vine, avine at eng.sun.com, iPlanet i18n architect
>"Stew my foot and call me Brenda"
>--From "Angry Kid" by Aardman Animation

--
-
Greg

greg at pulliam.org
http://www.pulliam.org


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Fri Jun 30 06:39:44 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 02:39:44 -0400
Subject: Query: Illustrations in Airplane Magazine
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.023944.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm off-list folks, but this one is derned interesting. Please forward any answers
to the original sender, although you may want to carbon-copy the list.



Mr. Barrett,
    My name is Eunice Buchanan.  You may think this request is a bit odd.
However, I recently was a passenger on a USAir Flight.  On board, I had the
pleasure of viewing an article regarding American Dialect Society.
Unfortunately, I cannot recall the name of the magazine.  The article
consisted of how certain words came into existence and the years they were
officially entered into our vocabulary.  I enjoyed the article, however, I
was somewhat disappointed.  Not in the article itself, what caught my
attention of the article was the cartoon drawings illustrating some commons
phrases and quotes used in American dialect.  For example, one drawing was a
man hitting his head against a brick wall..."hard head"; a cat in a tree with
a dog barking..."barking up the wrong tree".  Many other drawings were
represented, some of which I could not figure out.  This brings me to my
problem.  I am having a fit trying to figure out the phrases for the
remaining drawings, the answers were not given anywhere in the magazine.  If
you are familiar with this article, or have any suggestions, could you please
forward the information to me via email.  Once again, thank you for
entertaining this odd request.

Eunice Buchanan
www.icicle0729 at aol.com


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Fri Jun 30 08:46:54 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 03:46:54 -0500
Subject: Applesauce
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.034654.0500.>

Barry cites the following from THE GIRL FROM RECTOR'S (Doubleday, Page &
Co., Garden CIty, NY, 1927) by George Rector:

> Pg. 68:  In this case, "tub worker" did not mean bending over the week's wash in the back of a Chinese laundry.  This group of tourists worked the tubs. The tubs were ocean liners.  Their polish  was as false as the sheen on an oiled apple.  It could be dropped readily, and in passing their tables I often overheard such sinister words as "the mouthpiece," "the big store," "the mob," "the iron theatre," and "the rap."
>
>      This may mean nothing to you unless I explain that the mouthpiece was a lawyer, the big store was the district attorney's office, the mob was a gang of crooks, the iron theatre was a jail, and the rap was either an accusation or a term in jail.  They were not nice lads, but there was no way of excluding them provided they behaved themselves.  And they always acted very well in Rector's.
>

OK, that's a legitimate cite -- but wrong, nonetheless.

"The big store" was a term of art among con men, but it did NOT mean
"the D.A.'s office". My published authority is David Maurer, in his
__The Big Con__. In this case, I can claim unpublished verification
direct from my own interviews.

As it happens, I used to hang out in a bar a few oldtime con men used
for a home base when they were in Chicago. At various times, one or
another of them would try to rope me into some kind of short con.  I
would turn off their approaches with phrases I had learned from con men
and carnies when I was a kid.  They finally accepted me into their
conversations when I mentioned my father's Depression-era tire store. It
was across Western Avenue from Chicago's old Riverview Park, and they
remembered the place well. The game concessions at Riverview were all
run by carnies who were taking a rest from the rigors of road travel. To
keep their cars running, they would buy used tires from my father, who
always gave them good deals because they provided a steady source of
customers.

Concession games at Riverview, and at traveling carnivals, were all
rigged. Running those games was a way of breaking into the world of con
men.  Even the game boys who ran the tents in the afternoons, when
business was slow, quickly learned how to size up a mark and fleece him
for enough to make a difference but not so much as to trigger a
complaint or a call for the cops.  Running a game tent  was a good deal
for a con man who had to lay low after a good score.
Several of the con men at my old hangout had worked at Riverview during
the Depression. A couple of them even remembered me, back when I was six
or seven.

When dad took me to his store for a visit, he'd take me across the
street and let me wander all over Riverview. The guys at the game tents
never let me use my own money to pay for a game. They'd slip me some
change, and I would "spend" it all on the game whose operator gave me
the money.  Then they'd let me win -- and give me the big prizes, not
the flash.  (I knew I was supposed to get those prizes back to the guys
who gave them to me, without being obvious about it.) They used my wins
as bait for their victims.  I couldn't have told you what a "shill" was,
back then, but I played the role without understanding the implications.

When the con men at my favorite bar loosened up while I was around, they
would tell each other -- and me -- stories about some of their old
scores, and about some of the great con men of the past.  That's how I
learned about "the big store": a false-front operation set up for the
purpose of separating a wealthy victim from a lot of cash.

One form of the big store would be set up to look like a bookie parlor.
The mark would meet someone claiming to be a clerk in that bookie joint
who was mad at his boss.  The supposed disgruntled employee would say
that he saw a chance to pay back his boss by hitting him with an
unbeatable bet.  Then he would feed the mark a story about his friend, a
Western Union employee. The mark would then be set up to meet the
supposed Western Union guy.  The second con man would propose to pass
the telegaphed results of a race to the mark, but delay delivery of
those results to the bookies. The mark would then be able to make a bet
that couldn't lose.  The con men would let the mark win a series of
these sure bets to convince him that the fix was in. Then they'd send
him to fetch a big chunk of his own cash, thinking he could bet it and
make a killing. Once the mark's big money was on the table, there would
be some kind of "error" in transmission, and the mark would lose the big
bet he thought was going to make him rich.

What kind of error would lead to that?  Maurer cites a classic.  The
mark is told "Place the money on horse number 5 in the fourth race."
The mark would bet his wad on the horse to win; the results would
announce that his horse came in third.  In race results, the first horse
wins, the second "shows", and the third "places".

Those of you who remember "The Sting", the Robert Redford movie, saw how
a big store is set up, complete with a cast of actors (i.e., characters
in the film who take on roles to play in the fake betting parlor)
playing bettors, clerks, and all the others who might be seen in a real
bookie joint.  I remember the first time I saw that film, too.  I
recognized that great chunks of the screenplay had been plagiarized from
David Maurer's __The Big Con__, and it was a lot of fun to "predict" the
next turn in the story for the folks I was with.

Barry, the quotes from THE GIRL FROM RECTOR'S were a lot of fun to
read.  I'm glad you sent them.  The miss on "the big store", however,
suggests that Mr. Rector's ability to tell his stories well may not
necessarily say much about how well those stories mirror the reality
they're supposed to represent.

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!

P.S.:  Maurer's __The big con: the story of the confidence man and the
confidence game__ was originally published in 1940 by Bobbs- Merrill
(Indianapolis). Pocket Books brought it out in paperback in 1949, and
Anchor Books republished it in 1999.  I suspect that the same material
was published in 1974 by Thomas (Springfield, Ill.) as __The American
confidence man__, but I haven't had a chance to compare that edition
with the others.


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Fri Jun 30 09:03:56 2000
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 05:03:56 -0400
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.050356.0400.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter A. McGraw <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 29, 2000 5:49 PM
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts


>I was somewhat surprised at Andrea's posting.  To my knowledge, Oregon is
>the only place in the U.S. where this nut is grown, at least commercially,
>and to my knowledge it is the only part of the country where it's called a
>"filbert" instead of a "hazelnut."
>
>Trying to confirm this, I checked DARE and to my surprise found neither
>word.


Y'know, I just learned about this variation a few years ago from a friend of
mine, she's 40+, and lived in New Jersey all her life, but I don't know if
filbert or hazelnut is her native usage as it's never come up in actual use.

For me, it's always been hazelnut, since I've been a chocoholic since I was
about three. Okay, one and a half. In coffee and chocolate products, it's
*always* hazelnut. On its own, it's subject to local variation, and the only
other produced food venue I've seen it in is an Entenmann's pastry called a
Filbert Ring, pretty much a coffee cake, with hazelnuts. And those little
rolled wafer cookies that call them hazelnuts. They're usually sold in
association with coffee. Nutella uses hazelnut, it's a chocolate product.

For me, Filbert has always Rocko's turtle friend on Rocko's Modern Life, on
Nickelodeon.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 30 10:51:46 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:51:46 -0400
Subject: Some of my best friends are Jews
In-Reply-To: <14808A06301@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.065146.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, GEORGE THOMPSON wrote:

> When did the expression "some of my best friend are jews" come to be
> offered as the standard marker of a speaker who was at least
> marginally prejudiced.  (Or, the parallel "Some of my best friends
> are colored.")  Robert Gessner, a mentor of hers 60+ years ago,
> published a book with this title in 1936.  Given that its subject is
> anti-semitism in Europe of the time, I suppose that the title was
> taken ironically, that the expression was already recognized as
> usually leading to a "but . . . ."  She'd like confirmation.

The following citation seems confirmatory:

1936 _Economic Journal_ 46: 711  The initial declaration ... appears to
play the same role as the professional anti-Semite's prefatory announement
that some of his best friends are Jews.



Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Jun 30 12:56:27 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:56:27 +0100
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.135627.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> >Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of Oregon?

My father, who is a big fan of them, has always called them filberts.
(And that's what I learned to call them.) He's from Attica, NY.  It
seemed to me that 'hazelnut' got popularized among people I know only
after you started seeing coffees and chocolates flavored with them.  We
just had them whole when I was a kid (1970s).

Lynne


From vneufeldt at M-W.COM  Fri Jun 30 12:52:39 2000
From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:52:39 -0400
Subject: "jukebox"
In-Reply-To: <bd.49807a6.26882395@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.085239.0400.>

Just for the record, here are the results of my quick check in our old
citation files (didn't have time to do this earlier):

Fortune, Sept 1939:  "From fat to lean and halfway back again: for its
current boom the record industry can thank _juke-boxes_, light- and
heavy-music lovers, and technology."

Time, Sept 14 (? unclear on cite; p. # is 36), 1039:  "Once the upswing had
its initial bounce, other factors kept it moving.  Most important of these
was the popularity of the slot machine or "juke box" which retailed melody
in small barrooms, lunch counters and dance joints at 5c a shot.  With an
estimated consumption rate of more than 30,000,000 discs annually, the
300,000 juke boxes in the U.S. are today the record industry's largest
customer."

Harpers Magazine, Dec 1942:  "Then in the early 1930's _juke boxes_ began to
appear in large numbers.  At first they were simply a fad; today it is
estimated that there are more than four hundred thousand of them in
operation in the United States."

The Dec 25, 1939 issue of Time had a couple of interesting letters to the
editor:
1)     "Sirs: Perhaps I am getting behind in my knowledge of slang, but
where did you get the name "juke box" for nickel phonographs in your article
about Glenn Miller? (Time, Nov. 27).  In Michigan, Indiana and Ohio,
everyone calls them "Groan Boxes" and the expression, "Flip a nickel in the
groan," is generally understood.  Have you any other nicknames on file?
G. Carlton Burandt    Coldwater, Mich."
2)     "Sirs: Time (Nov. 27, p. 56) refers to a coin-operated phonograph as
a "juke box."  Since Gainesville is -- if not the birthplace -- at least the
incubator and nursery for the term, I feel a more-or-less fatherly interest
in it and ask that you conform to our usage in the future.  To the Florida
Man such an instrument is a jook-organ and nothing else.   My efforts to
point out reasons for our usage would be puny compared to Will McGuire's
excellent "A Note on Jook," so I will simply enclose a copy of his work for
your information.  This is taken from the spring 1938 edition of _The
Florida Review_, published at the University of Florida.   T.F. Koch
Gainesville, Fla."
An editorial note by Time follows: "Says Authority McGuire: '_jook_ as noun
means a rather ordinary roadhouse outside the city limits ... where beer is
for sale, and where there is a coin phonograph, or nickelodeon, and space
for dancing.'  --Ed."

Among other cites is one from The Commonweal, Sept 30, 1940 and another from
Liberty Magazine, October 26, 1940.  From 1941 on there are a fair number of
cites from a variety of periodicals.  One slip mentions a discussion of the
term in American Speech in 1940, which in turn mentions articles on its
origin and words derived from it, in the Chicago Tribune, in April, 1940
(Apr 2, p. 12; Apr 4, p. 16; and Apr 5, p. 16).

Victoria
Merriam-Webster, Inc. P.O. Box 281
Springfield, MA 01102
Tel: 413-734-3134  ext 124
Fax: 413-827-7262


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 11:10 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "jukebox"
>
>
>    Again, see the RHHDAS H-O, pp. 323-324 ("juke" and "jukebox" and "juke
> organ") and DARE I-O, pp. 163-164 ("jook" ).
>    I had found a "juke box" around the same time period in VARIETY.
>    The 1939 Barry Buchanan unpublished ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE ENTERTAINMENT
> WORLD might have "jukebox," but I haven't finished copying it.
>


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Jun 30 13:03:07 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:03:07 +0100
Subject: octothorpe
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.140307.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'd always called it a 'pound sign', but ran into trouble with that early in
the UK.  The pound sign ? for pounds sterling is on the same key on the
keyboard as the pound sign #, and that's one of the major differences btw UK
and US keyboards.  So telling the computer person that I was leaving the
keyboard on the US setting so that I could have the pound sign--well, that was
a bit confusing.

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320
> From:         Victoria Neufeldt <vneufeldt at M-W.COM>
> Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:06:07 -0400
> Subject:      Re: octothorpe
> To:           ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Reply-To:     American Dialect Society <ADS-L at listserv.uga.edu>
>
> I've noticed that "number sign" is what you hear in voicemail instructions
> ("press . . . followed by the number sign")  in Canada -- but I don't know
> if that is true across the country.  Which makes more sense to me too than
> "pound sign", since it is much more commonly used as a number sign.  In
> fact, its use as a sign for pound (meaning weight, not pound Sterling) must
> be pretty well obsolete -- at least I can't recall seeing it, except in a
> historical context.
>
> Victoria
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> > Of A. Vine
> > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 2:10 PM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: octothorpe
> >
> >
> > Yes.  I do.  And FWIW, the International Organization for
> > Standardization (ISO)
> > calls it NUMBER SIGN.  Alternate names are: pound sign, hash, crosshatch,
> > octothorpe.  ISO calls @ "COMMERCIAL AT" with no alternate names.
> >
> >
> > "Peter A. McGraw" wrote:
> > >
> > > Didn't anybody but me ever call it the "number sign" (as in #1, #5, #57,
> > > etc.)?
>


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Jun 30 13:08:05 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:08:05 +0100
Subject: Any of you *not* know another language?
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.140805.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> To the esteemed linguists and language experts on this list:
>
> Are there any of you who do *not* know a language other than English?
>
> Yet another snooty "my world is the only world" posting on another list, in case
> you were wondering.  But I'm also curious.

That depends on what you mean by 'knowing another language'.  I can say 'hello,
how are you? fine, thanks.  and you?' in a number of languages.  I don't think
this counts as knowing languages.  I can read French with a dictionary.  But
although I've taken courses in something like a dozen languages, I cannot hold a
conversation in anything but English.  (I want to try to regain the French,
however.)

I always tell people that asking a linguist how many languages she speaks is kind
of like asking a doctor how many diseases he has.

Lynne


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Fri Jun 30 13:32:01 2000
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:32:01 -0400
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.093201.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have three hazel nut trees in my yard in mid-Michigan. That's not
enough to claim I grow them commercially. But the squirrels don't know
the difference. Filbert and hazelnut are used interchangeably among the
people I know who mention the nut.

Bob

"Peter A. McGraw" wrote:
>
> I was somewhat surprised at Andrea's posting.  To my knowledge, Oregon is
> the only place in the U.S. where this nut is grown, at least commercially,
> and to my knowledge it is the only part of the country where it's called a
> "filbert" instead of a "hazelnut."
>
>


From dbritain at ESSEX.AC.UK  Fri Jun 30 13:30:48 2000
From: dbritain at ESSEX.AC.UK (D J Britain)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:30:48 +0100
Subject: Micronesian Englishes
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.143048.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone know of any research on the Englishes of Micronesia (Guam,
Saipan, Palau, the FSM, the Northern Marianas etc)? I've searched, but
so far in vain.

Cheers

Dave
dbritain at essex.ac.uk

Dr. David Britain
Department of Language and Linguistics
University of Essex
Wivenhoe Park
COLCHESTER
Great Britain CO4 3SQ

Telephone
(from within UK): 01206 872101
(from outside UK): +44 1206 872101

Facsimile
(from within UK): 01206 872198
(from outside UK): +44 1206 872198

E-Mail: dbritain at essex.ac.uk


From kelly at BARD.EDU  Fri Jun 30 13:22:51 2000
From: kelly at BARD.EDU (Robert Kelly)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:22:51 -0400
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
In-Reply-To: <1455285.3171278955@dhcp-218-202-137.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.092251.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

all through my childhood (1940s...) I encountered filberts in markets and
delis in NYC, so labeled, both scrawled on paperbag signs, and printed on
cellophane bags.  It was years before I discovered that this was the
famous hazelnut of literature, folklore and recipes.  Right now I can walk
into a supermarket and find  slightly glossier bags of filberts with no
reference on them to hazel.  In NYC, hazel was a color of the eye (my own
were so described on my draft card -- another thread will have to explain
what _that_ was).

RK

On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> I was somewhat surprised at Andrea's posting.  To my knowledge, Oregon is
> the only place in the U.S. where this nut is grown, at least commercially,
> and to my knowledge it is the only part of the country where it's called a
> "filbert" instead of a "hazelnut."
>
> Trying to confirm this, I checked DARE and to my surprise found neither
> word.
>
> You can find canned hazelnuts in Oregon stores (even if they were grown in
> Oregon), but you'll look in vain for a grower who calls his spread a
> "hazelnut orchard"--or at least you'd have looked in vain for such a person
> when I was growing up on an Oregon filbert farm.
>
> Just today I ran across a newspaper story about an organization called the
> Hazelnut Marketing Board, based in Portland.  Nothing strange about that if
> they are trying to market the product nationally, but what was strange was
> that the article, from the local paper in Wilsonville, the nearest town to
> our family filbert farm, referred to a "local hazelnut grower."  I wonder
> if the newspaper writer is an ignorant newcomer.  It's hard to imaging that
> the local usage could be changing--it would still seem bizarre for me to
> call the nut anything but a filbert when talking to another Oregonian, at
> least when referring to the nut when it's still on the tree or on the
> ground or being picked.
>
> Can anyone report the use of "filbert" outside of Oregon?
>
> Peter Mc.
>
>
> --On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 10:45 AM -0700 Andrea Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> wrote:
>
> > Hmm, how about hazelnuts/filberts?
> >
> > Greg Pulliam wrote:
> >>
> >> How about garbanzos/chickpeas?
> >> --
>
>
>
> ****************************************************************************
>                                Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu
>


From jdespres at MAIL.M-W.COM  Fri Jun 30 09:53:35 2000
From: jdespres at MAIL.M-W.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:53:35 +0000
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.095335.0000.>

My mother (from Massachusetts) calls them both "filberts" and
"hazelnuts."

Joanne Despres


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Fri Jun 30 14:40:38 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:40:38 -0400
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
In-Reply-To: <E1380Ii-0000hL-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.104038.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's my recollection that I've always known both terms. My grandfather was
very big on nuts; he always had a wide assortment. (I regret to say I
didn't know the proper name for Brazil nuts until well into my teen
years.) I would agree with Lynne that hazelnut came into the fore with the
rise of flavored coffees; hazelnut also seems to be the term of
preference among chocolates, but I know that I saw/heard filbert as a kid,
too in the early 70s in mid-Michigan.


--- Steve K.


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Fri Jun 30 14:31:17 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:31:17 +0200
Subject: ADS Web Site: Move Complete
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.163117.0200.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

Just a quick note to say that the ADS web site move has finally been completed.

Bill Kretzschmar's assistant at UGA, Eric Rochester, was of inestimable help--he did
most of the work in arranging the domain name transfer, setting up the new server,
installing the search engine and working with the technical staff there.

If you find anything amiss, please drop me a line personally rather than to the
list, as I am off-list for the duration of my stay in Paris.

Grant

--

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at monickels.com
http://www.monickels.com/
AIM: monickels
30 rue de Beaubourg
75003 Paris, FRANCE
Paris phone: 01 42 72 77 62
International: 33 1 42 72 77 62
Fax, Voicemail US: Toll-free 1-888-392-4832, ext. 291-340-4218


From Abatefr at CS.COM  Fri Jun 30 14:52:37 2000
From: Abatefr at CS.COM (Frank Abate)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:52:37 EDT
Subject: octothorpe; nails
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.105237.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Re Steve K's comments on penny and nails:

I happen to have a couple boxes of nails at hand.  They do indeed use the "#"
sign, thus:

  #4D  bright finish nail
  #6D  bright common nail

If I were a carpenter (sorry), I'd say "4 penny nails" and "6 penny nails"
for these designations, ignoring the "#".  The "#" sign is to show (I guess)
that the 4 and the 6 are numeric designators (how could anyone not realize
this?), but seems to be a convention often used in designating nails.  The
"D" is a common abbrev. for "penny" (in ref to nails), reflecting the former
UK practice of using this letter to designate a penny (before the change to
decimal currency).  Just to confuse things further, the "D" actually stands
for "denarius", the Latin name for a Roman coin of low value.

So we have the number sign (aka pound sign, etc.) used in a convention that
represents the "penny" designation for nails, and the abbrev. for penny is
from a Latin word.  Ain't life a hoot.  It gets better:

OED (at penny 10) says that the "penny" designation for nails refers to their
price per hundred in the 15th century.  The tradition persists, though not
the prices, and now they are often sold in bulk by the pound (in the US, at
least).  The "#4D" nails I have here are shorter than the "#6D" ones.  The
numeric designation is now used to refer to the length of the nails (whatever
the type, as "common nail" vs. "finish nail"), as indicated by a chart on the
boxes I have, which show every size from "4d" (1.5 inches; 38 mm) to "20d" (4
inches; 102 mm).  Note that the "penny" designator is here a lower-case d,
and on the charts is actually shown as superscript.

For the record, the boxes are "distributed by the Howard Berger Co., Inc.
Brooklyn, NY 11207".  They are marked "Made in China".  Each box cost $1.69
for a pound of nails.

There's a lot of currents roiling around in this one.  Have fun.

Frank Abate


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Fri Jun 30 15:00:07 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:00:07 -0400
Subject: octothorpe; nails
In-Reply-To: <bd.4beb35f.268e0e35@cs.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.110007.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Frank Abate wrote:

>   #4D  bright finish nail
>   #6D  bright common nail

My bad -- I always assumed # here had to do with weight per hundred, not
(originally) price per hundred. *Sigh*.

> There's a lot of currents roiling around in this one.  Have fun.

My head hurts.

--- Steve K.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 30 15:12:04 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:12:04 EDT
Subject: HOOPALISTIC?
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.111204.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This from a recent article in my local newspaper:

"_Hoopalistic_ is that particular style of preaching with the hacking sound
following each sentence, used primarily by black preachers. It's also
referred to as a rhythmic cadence. That . . . style of preaching has its
roots in the sound made by black workers when they raise heavy sledgehammers,
etc. overhead and slam them down."

Any wisdom on this? I checked Geneva Smiterhman's TALKIN' THAT TALK and found
nothing about the hacking sound. However, I am dubious about this origin
story, in part because the "rhythmic cadence" is a practice of white
preachers as well.


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Fri Jun 30 16:56:00 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:56:00 -0500
Subject: a recipe
In-Reply-To: <200006142153.RAA30278@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.115600.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Since we have taken to exchanging favorite recipes lately, here's one
from last week's NYTimes many will find very useful, now that the
season for backyard barbeques and picnicing is at hand.  It is an
elephant repellant:

Dung-Pepper Anti-elephant Briquettes.  (Courtesy of Kinos Maribu)
1 pound of hot chilies, crushed.
2 pounds fresh elephant dung.

1.  Blend the dung and pounded peppers and form into a brick shape.
2.  Place in the sun for a day or two to harden and dry out.

Yield.  Makes one briquette.

You place this in your backyard and set it on fire whenever you feel
the need to keep off wandering elephants.  Elephant dung is found in
better speciality shops everywhere.

GAT


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 30 16:26:47 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:26:47 -0400
Subject: "jukebox" and "nickelodeon"
In-Reply-To: <000001bfe292$12f7de40$282b62ce@vneufeldt.m-w.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.122647.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Victoria Neufeldt at Merriam-Webster writes (inter alia):
>Just for the record, here are the results of my quick check in our old
>citation files (didn't have time to do this earlier):
>
>...
>The Dec 25, 1939 issue of Time had a couple of interesting letters to the
>editor:
>1)     "Sirs: Perhaps I am getting behind in my knowledge of slang, but
>where did you get the name "juke box" for nickel phonographs in your article
>about Glenn Miller? (Time, Nov. 27).  In Michigan, Indiana and Ohio,
>everyone calls them "Groan Boxes" and the expression, "Flip a nickel in the
>groan," is generally understood.  Have you any other nicknames on file?
>G. Carlton Burandt    Coldwater, Mich."

=========
The 1939 reference to the jukebox as a 'nickel phonograph' above reminds me
of a term that for a while overlapped with it, NICKELODEON (yes, for you
youngsters, before the cable network appropriated the name).  It's hard for
anyone of a certain age not to think of 'nickelodeon' in the jukebox sense
without that old (c. 1950?) ditty popping up--

Put another nickel in,
In the nickelodeon,
All I want is lovin' you
And music, music, music

--but the OED makes it clear that the 'jukebox' sense of "nickelodeon" was
a transfer from the original, and it's that original that underlies the
network's appropriation.  But note that this transferred use of
'nickelodeon' evidently slightly predated the appearance (in attested
print) of 'juke box' itself.  And the role of Florida jook houses is
reinforced by that '38 cite.

NICKELODEON
1. A theatre or motion-picture show for which the admission fee is a
nickel; a place containing automatic machines to provide amusement, which
can be used
for a nickel. Also attrib.

       1921 Ladies' Home Jrnl. June 79/1 It is this class which first
patronized the old nickelodeon, and undoubtedly it imposed its tastes and
its traditions
       on the picture makers.

       1927 F. Hurst Song of Life 292 The nickelodeons and the gewgaw shops
of the most terrific city in the world.

       1930 Time & Tide 27 Sept. 1206 The film was..handed over by the
scientists to the `nickelodeons' of America.

       1938 Encycl. Brit. Bk. of Year 422/2 The old nickelodeon programmes.

       1939 C. Morley Kitty Foyle 68 A dance floor and a nickelodeon piano.

       1955 G. Greene Quiet American 188 It must have belonged to the same
era as the nickelodeon.

       1973 Publishers Weekly 10 Sept. 45/2 The development of American
movies from nickelodeon days to the 1970s.

2. A `jukebox'; a machine that automatically plays selected gramophone
records on the insertion of a coin. Also attrib.

       1938 Florida Review Spring 25/1 The requisites of a place entitling
it to the name jook are..presence of the nickelodeon, and..of the
dance-floor.

       1949 Sat. Even. Post 15 Jan. 88/3 A nickelodeon at the end of the
street emits a tinny piano tinkle.

       1957 J. Frame Owls do Cry 76 Putting money in the nickelodeon.

P.S.  There's a very interesting thread the Mechanical Music Digest (from
January 1997) archived at
http://www.foxtail.com/Archives/RawDigests/97.01/digest.97.01.30.txt
on the subject of whether "nickelodeons" were not true juke boxes but only
nickel-operated automatic pianos; the consensus is that term was indeed a
generic encompassing what we now call juke-boxes as well as the automatic
pianos played at movie theaters and elsewhere.  Principles of lexicography
are batted back and forth, and the term "orchestrion" is also touched on,
as well as "honky-tonk".  Amazing what you can find on the web.

larry


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 30 16:29:07 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (jester at PANIX.COM)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:29:07 -0400
Subject: "jukebox" and "nickelodeon"
In-Reply-To: <v04011704b58273321962@[130.132.116.12]> from "Laurence Horn" at
 Jun 30, 2000 12:26:47 PM
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.122907.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
> --but the OED makes it clear that the 'jukebox' sense of "nickelodeon" was
> a transfer from the original, and it's that original that underlies the
> network's appropriation.  But note that this transferred use of
> 'nickelodeon' evidently slightly predated the appearance (in attested
> print) of 'juke box' itself.  And the role of Florida jook houses is
> reinforced by that '38 cite.
>
> NICKELODEON
> 1. A theatre or motion-picture show for which the admission fee is a
> nickel; a place containing automatic machines to provide amusement, which
> can be used
> for a nickel. Also attrib.
>
>        1921 Ladies' Home Jrnl. June 79/1 It is this class which first
> patronized the old nickelodeon, and undoubtedly it imposed its tastes and
> its traditions
>        on the picture makers.

Before Barry jumps in, let me say that when the N batch gets published
in a year or two, it will have antedated this word to 1888.

> 2. A `jukebox'; a machine that automatically plays selected gramophone
> records on the insertion of a coin. Also attrib.
>
>        1938 Florida Review Spring 25/1 The requisites of a place entitling
> it to the name jook are..presence of the nickelodeon, and..of the
> dance-floor.

However, this is still our earliest for sense 2, at least as far as I
can tell.

Best,

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Fri Jun 30 18:02:24 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:02:24 -0500
Subject: The Big Con
In-Reply-To: <v04011704b58273321962@[130.132.116.12]>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.130224.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If Mike Salovesh hasn't been astonished lately, he should look up
David Maurer's The Big Con in Bookfinder.  The original 1940 edition
is going for $800, $950, if signed by Broderick Crawford, and into
the thousands, if the book dealer has had the imagination to tie it
to the movie.  I once owned the original paperback edition, and
evidently will have to settle for the new paperback.

GAT


From W-Stone at NEIU.EDU  Fri Jun 30 17:25:57 2000
From: W-Stone at NEIU.EDU (William Stone)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:25:57 -0500
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.122557.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For what it's worth, in my part of S.E. England, hazelnuts were what you picked from
the tree, but if you bought them in the store, they were called cobs.  I'm not even
sure if that name still persists.  Is there any place in N. America where the term
cob is used?

William Stone
Linguistics Department
N. E. Illinois University


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From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Jun 30 17:44:06 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:44:06 -0700
Subject: Any of you *not* know another language?
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.104406.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Lynne Murphy wrote:
>
> > To the esteemed linguists and language experts on this list:
> >
> > Are there any of you who do *not* know a language other than English?
> >
> > Yet another snooty "my world is the only world" posting on another list, in case
> > you were wondering.  But I'm also curious.
>
> That depends on what you mean by 'knowing another language'.  I can say 'hello,
> how are you? fine, thanks.  and you?' in a number of languages.  I don't think
> this counts as knowing languages.  I can read French with a dictionary.  But
> although I've taken courses in something like a dozen languages, I cannot hold a
> conversation in anything but English.  (I want to try to regain the French,
> however.)
>
> I always tell people that asking a linguist how many languages she speaks is kind
> of like asking a doctor how many diseases he has.

What a great statement!  Can I use that?


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Jun 30 17:46:32 2000
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:46:32 -0700
Subject: Any of you *not* know another language?
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.104632.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Bethany K. Dumas" wrote:
>
> On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, A. Vine wrote:
>
> >>Are there any of you who do *not* know a language other than English?
> Yet another snooty "my world is the only world" posting on another list,
> in case you were wondering.  But I'm also curious.<<<
>
> I don't understand. Are you claiming to be posting a snooty MWITOW item?
> It doesn't sound like you ...
>

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  There was a posting (from someone else) on another list
in response to whether data should have a collation scheme associated with it or
whether the collation should be the choice of the end user, which went as
follows:

  Of course, if an monolingual Anglophone wishes to see them all sorted
  according to English rules (what is the English rule for &ntilde;?),
  I am (as I think I have said) not against it.  I am violently
  against systems that won't allow anything else.

  Provisions for i18n and l10n should not cater *solely* to the ignorance
  of monollinguals.

So, I recall some of the linguistics students in college not knowing other
languages.  And I was wondering if any of the linguists on this list fit that
profile.  Just because someone is monolingual, does not mean s/he is ignorant in
my books.  User preference is user preference.


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Jun 30 18:12:18 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:12:18 -0400
Subject: Any of you *not* know another language?
In-Reply-To: <395CDCF8.65079B67@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.141218.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, A. Vine clarified for me --

>Sorry, I wasn't clear.  There was a posting (from someone else) on another list
>in response to whether data should have a collation scheme associated with it or
>whether the collation should be the choice of the end user, which went as
>follows: [etc.

Thanks. I understand now.

Bethany


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Jun 30 18:41:29 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:41:29 -0700
Subject: hazelnuts/filberts
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0006301035460.26801-100000@shell3.shore.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.114129.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wow!  Thanks for all the responses!  It seems clear that what I interpreted
as geographical was more a matter of chronology and context.  Since I was
in other parts of the country when I began hearing "hazelnut," I obviously
reached the erronious conclusion that people in those parts of the country
had always preferred that word.

And now an Oregon newspaper even writes of "hazelnut growers"!  There goes
the neighborhood!

Peter Mc.


****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Fri Jun 30 20:11:51 2000
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:11:51 -0500
Subject: Query: Illustrations in Airplane Magazine
In-Reply-To: <200006300639.CAA13364@listserv.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.151151.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This article was in the US Airways Attache June 2000 ish.

Just quickly (Henry must be fed, and soon) I see:

asleep at the switch, cold feet, quick draw, cut the mustard, & on the ball.

I do not know what the machine in the gizmo.com crate nor the
tipped-over letterbox are supposed to signify.

Good luck!

Erin McKean
editor at verbatimmag.com




>I'm off-list folks, but this one is derned interesting. Please
>forward any answers
>to the original sender, although you may want to carbon-copy the list.
>
>
>
>Mr. Barrett,
>     My name is Eunice Buchanan.  You may think this request is a bit odd.
>However, I recently was a passenger on a USAir Flight.  On board, I had the
>pleasure of viewing an article regarding American Dialect Society.
>Unfortunately, I cannot recall the name of the magazine.  The article
>consisted of how certain words came into existence and the years they were
>officially entered into our vocabulary.  I enjoyed the article, however, I
>was somewhat disappointed.  Not in the article itself, what caught my
>attention of the article was the cartoon drawings illustrating some commons
>phrases and quotes used in American dialect.  For example, one drawing was a
>man hitting his head against a brick wall..."hard head"; a cat in a tree with
>a dog barking..."barking up the wrong tree".  Many other drawings were
>represented, some of which I could not figure out.  This brings me to my
>problem.  I am having a fit trying to figure out the phrases for the
>remaining drawings, the answers were not given anywhere in the magazine.  If
>you are familiar with this article, or have any suggestions, could you please
>forward the information to me via email.  Once again, thank you for
>entertaining this odd request.
>
>Eunice Buchanan
>www.icicle0729 at aol.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 30 21:57:33 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:57:33 EDT
Subject: Fwd: Whole Nine Yards
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2000.175733.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just double-checked on this--Barry Popik
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