From charles at FREUDE.COM Tue Jul 17 19:16:54 2001 From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:16:54 -0400 Subject: everybody...their In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417085557.00cfebc0@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: This phenomenon is parallel to the one that eliminated "thou" for "you". It seems to me a good prophylactic device to heal an obvious malfunction in the English language, and it should be encouraged. The Economist recently had a weasel-worded article about this phenomenon. I don't agree with their conclusion, but they pointed out some real problems with changing to "their" in these circumstances. > > What about this one? I have noticed during the past 20-25 years that the use > of "Everybody (everyone, each, somebody, etc...) has THEIR own way of doing > things" has steadily been replacing "Everybody (etc)....HIS own etc" even > in "learned discourse" I attribute this to the influence of the women's > movement in making America more aware and sensitive to sexism in society in > general and in the English language in particular. I have tried to use > "his/her" (clumsy as it is) as a way to preserve subject-verb agreement, and > I notice some others use "her" as a sort of overcompensation; but with each > passing year I see "their" picking up more momentum in all corners, even in > Academia. Has this been picked up on any "official radar?" Is it in any > usage dictionaries yet? Are there any other grammar formalists out there who > cringe like I do when they hear this? > > > > > > At 08:40 PM 4/16/01, you wrote: >> >> At 10:10 AM -0400 4/17/01, P2052 at AOL.COM wrote: >>> >>> A number of the older grammar books/style manuals claim that either >>> acceptable. >>> In The Complete Stylist and Handbook, 3rd ed. (1984), Sheridan acknowledges >>> both a singular and a plural usage; however, he embraces the singular sense >>> of none: "None of them are, of course is very common. From Shakespeare's >>> time to ours, it has persisted alongside the more precise none of them is, >>> which seems to have the edge in careful prose, since it follows the >>> structure >>> of English, matching singular with singular" (354). >> >> >> I find this argument entirely circular and question-begging, besides flying >> in the face of centuries of distinguished usage. >> >>> >>> He cites the following >>> examples: >>> FAULTY: None of these men are failures. >>> REVISED: None of these men is a failure. >>> FAULTY: None of the class, even those best prepared, want >>> the test. >>> REVISED: None of the class, even those best prepared, >>> wants the >>> test. >>> Note that these uses of none are the equivalent of not one. >> >> >> Actually, I'm not sure that "none" = 'not one' in the second example: "Not >> one of the class wants the test"? In any case, this equivalence (often used >> by earlier prescriptivists as a rationale for the singular agreement) is a >> bit of a red herring, since the one case where everyone has always used >> singular agreement, "none of the X" for mass noun X, doesn't permit a "not >> one" paraphrase. >> >> larry > Charles Wells, Emeritus Professor of Mathematics, Case Western Reserve University Affiliate Scholar, Oberlin College Send all mail to: 105 South Cedar St., Oberlin, Ohio 44074, USA. email: charles at freude.com. home phone: 440 774 1926. professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jul 1 17:24:19 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 10:24:19 -0700 Subject: FW: Count usage for "software" Message-ID: Has the countable use of software or code (where it is used as programming code) become acceptable or even occasional in the US? Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA Gambling, gamboling and more at the Riverside Inn in Tukwila! -----Original Message----- From: chandler at yomogi.or.jp [mailto:chandler at yomogi.or.jp] I frequently encounter (on the HTML help list, or photography list for example) usages such as "a software", not to mention "a code" and so on, which strike me as, well, wrong, in that I never heard them in the years I was involved with programming and so on. I have here a document for which I'm translating some paste-in amendments; here's a sample paragraph: Help for Each Software To learn in details the usage of a software, please read its Help. To me this is horribly wrong, but involves "changing" to a different word, like 'program'. But I'd welcome opinions - such as that the countable usages are becoming acceptable; or that despite there being almost as many "a software"s as "wierd"s on the web, informed usage is as I would expect. Brian Chandler geo://Sano.Japan.Planet_3 http://imaginatorium.org/trans.htm From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 2 08:29:47 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 04:29:47 EDT Subject: Icelandic recipes Message-ID: SOME ICELANDIC RECIPES selected by Elin Kristjandottir Mal Og Menning, Reykjavik 1973, 1993, 1998 Pg. 14: Gravlax Pg. 28: Gudrin's herring salad Pg. 31: Cod in the oven Pg. 33: Faxabay plaice Pg. 36: Fish under a "skyr" roof Pg. 37: Fish in a summer mood (THERE'S A SUMMER?--ed.) Pg. 39: Salt cod with swedes (rutabagas) and suet drippings Pg. 47: The bachelor's leg of lamb slices Pg. 55: Reindeer in Iceland Pg. 58: Ptarmigan Pg. 68: Halfmoons Pg. 69: Jewish cookies Pg. 73: Doa's homebaked bread From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Jul 2 09:07:49 2001 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 02:07:49 -0700 Subject: Count usage for software In-Reply-To: <3B1F829C0019EC41@phobos.email.Arizona.EDU> Message-ID: It's interesting that the inquiry came from someone working in Japan. My first reaction to the quoted example was that it must have been written in Japan or Taiwan by a non-native speaker. English articles are notoriously difficult for speakers of East Asian languages, and the count/mass distinction does not map smoothly onto those languages. Rudy From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 2 13:23:35 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 09:23:35 EDT Subject: Matzoth Balls (1937); Pitted Prunes; Lahmajun Message-ID: In a message dated 6/5/01 12:56:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > MATZOTH BALLS > > OED has 1950 for "matzo balls." Is that their final answer? > From Clementine Paddleford's column in the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 25 > March 1937, pg. 24, col. 7: > > _Passover Dinner Menu_ > (...) > MATZOTH BALLS > To each tablespoon of matzoth meal, use one egg. Beat two eggs > separately, adding a dash of ground ginger, dash of cinnamon, dash of ground > almond, dash of pepper, and a dash of salt, then stir in 2 tablesppons of > matzoh meal and make into a paste with two teaspoons of chicken fat. Form > into small balls and boil twenty minutes in chicken soup. Approximate yield: > twelve balls. Mrs. Simon Kander (Lizzie Black Kander) _The "Settlement" Cook Book, 6th Edition_ I do not have a reliable date for the 6th edition of _The "Settlement" Cook Book_. The copyright date on the reverse of the title page is 1901, but six editions in the same year is unlikely. According to a Web site, URL http://www.notaphily.com/scripophily/hebnatkosfoo.html, the 6th "printing" was in 1912. According to Amazon.com, the first edition was reprinted by Applewood Books; ISBN: 1557094365 but the reprint is currently out of print. The quotation is on page 84 as the recipe title "MATZOS-MARROW BALLS". The recipe is as follows: "2 tablespoons marrow fat, (beef) 2 eggs 1/4 cup matzos meal 1/2 teaspoon salt A grating of nutmeg Split the bones and remove the marrow. Cream the marrow, add the eggs well beaten, season, and add only enough matzos meal to shape easily into balls, size of a walnut. Try one in boiling water, if it does not hold together, add more meal. Drop into boiling soup 15 minutes before serving. Cracker crumbs or bread crums may be used in place of the meal." - Jim Landau From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Mon Jul 2 15:54:47 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 11:54:47 -0400 Subject: dogs vs. cats (was: Vegan prescriptivism) Message-ID: Lynne scripsit: >>>>> Just ran across this site which promotes 'animal friendly' alternatives to common sayings. Includes suggestion that you say "I have a bean to pick with you" rather than "I have a bone to pick with you." <<<<< Boy, is *that* ever a dumb idea. Worse than "herstory", which despite its etymological illiteracy does serve a useful purpose. >>>>> I was actually looking to find other expressions where dog/cat are contrasted (other than 'raining cats & dogs' and 'fight like cats & dogs'). If you know of any, let me know, please. <<<<< This doesn't really count, but you might find it interesting. In his sf novel _Glory Road_ Robert A. Heinlein mentions a pair of (fictional) proverbs: Women and cats. Men and weather. The language from which these proverbs are "translated" is described approx. as "isolating, uninflected, and flat", the culture has long ago mastered weather control, and Heinlein always views cats as independent and unruleable. The proverbs are to be understood as meaning Women, like cats, are independent and cannot be controlled. Men, like weather, are predictable and controllable. -- Mark Vegetarians eat only vegetables. I'm a humanitarian. http://www.teleport.com/~cat/EC_Home_Page.html Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 2 17:28:12 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 13:28:12 EDT Subject: Pork Scratches on the Whipped Cream Front Message-ID: Greetings from an airport in Copenhagen. I fly from here to Greenland. I had a brief airport stop before in Iceland (where I go after Greenland). WHIPPED CREAM FRONT--Denmark during the Nazi period. There's only one Google.com hit, but the Copenhagen tour guide used it. PORK SCRATCHES--Are these pork rinds? The airport bar serves them, called Flaeskesvaer. WEINERBROD--The "Danish" pastry here in Copenhagen. DANISH MEATBALLS--meatballs served with red cabbage, cucumber salad, potatoes and sauce. (From airport menu--ed.) "BIKSEMAD"--cubed beef, potatoes, onions and fried egg. SCATTERED-SITE HOUSING--On the cover of Sunday's NEW YORK POST. JIGSAW LEARNING--A large story in today's USA TODAY (coined by Elliot Aronson?). -------------------------------------------------------- AN ICELANDIC COOKBOOK by Aslaug Benedikstdottir Iceland Review, Reykjavik 1993, reprinted 2000 A 31-pager with illustrations. Pg. 3: The Mermaid's Favourite. (Haddock--ed.) Pg. 7: Plokkfiskur. Pg. 11: Hotel Saga's Meatballs. Pg. 19: Icelandic Meat Soup. Pg. 21: Icelandic Pancakes. Pg. 23: Grandmother's Oatmeal Biscuits. Pg. 27: Kleinur. -------------------------------------------------------- COPENHAGEN NOTE I was last here a few months ago, and I'm relieved to find that the Little Mermaid is not pregnant. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jul 2 17:52:57 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 13:52:57 -0400 Subject: not really American dialect? Message-ID: Do any of you learned folk know why we smooch at dogs and pss at cats? The practice of pssing to cats evidently is old, since we call cats pussies. No doubt we have smooched at dogs for as long. Why don't we call dogs smoochies? This is the sort of thing I think about in my many idle moments. Birdwatchers, by the way, sometimes call small birds from the trees by either smooching or pssing. I've never had much success with it myself, but have seen it done. Birds who are hiding in the foliage will come out onto branches where they are more easily seen, evidently to check out the source of the noise. The pssing is supposed to be done very loudly, much more so than when conversing with a cat. Does this mean that birds are multilingual, speaking both Cat and Dog as well as warbling their native woodnotes wild? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From tonyglaser at MINDSPRING.COM Mon Jul 2 19:49:13 2001 From: tonyglaser at MINDSPRING.COM (Tony Glaser) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 14:49:13 -0500 Subject: Pork Scratches on the Whipped Cream Front In-Reply-To: <26.17a2420f.2872092d@aol.com> Message-ID: > > >PORK SCRATCHES--Are these pork rinds? The airport bar serves them, >called Flaeskesvaer. > Yes, I think so. Pork rinds are common pub fare in England, under the name "Pork scratchings" Tony Glaser From Ittaob at AOL.COM Mon Jul 2 19:35:42 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:35:42 EDT Subject: Back in the day Message-ID: I have to agree that "back in the day" evokes nostalgia. From hearing it used by my college-age son and his friends, including several African-Americans, I conclude that it is roughly equivalent to "back in the old days." Steve Boatti From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Jul 2 20:49:04 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 13:49:04 -0700 Subject: not really American dialect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As a matter of fact, your query makes me wonder if there are indeed dialectal differences in our communications with dogs and cats. I think I may have heard people "smooching" at dogs, if I correctly interpret what you're describing, though I never used it myself. As for saying "psssss" to a cat--??!!! I can confidently say I've never run across this and don't even know what it's supposed to mean. "Come here"? Other than normal "human talk" and made-up baby talk of one sort or another, the only thing I've ever said to a cat is "Here, kittykittykitty!" I thought that was "standard cat English." Peter --On Monday, July 2, 2001 1:52 PM -0400 George Thompson wrote: > Do any of you learned folk know why we smooch at dogs and pss at cats? > The practice of pssing to cats evidently is old, since we call cats > pussies. No doubt we have smooched at dogs for as long. Why don't we > call dogs smoochies? **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From Lesa.Dill at WKU.EDU Mon Jul 2 20:50:59 2001 From: Lesa.Dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:50:59 -0500 Subject: not really American dialect? Message-ID: "Want food" and "Wanna go out" are standard cat English. They show limitless dialectal variation--to the cat at least. From PIvsin at RIVENET.COM Mon Jul 2 21:09:20 2001 From: PIvsin at RIVENET.COM (Ivsin, Paul) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 16:09:20 -0500 Subject: Polink? Message-ID: Can anyone supply a meaning and origin for the term "polink," as used in the last sentence of the quote below? >>> About the borough on every hand evidences of thrift and many elegant houses, residences and storerooms, with others in the process of building, are to be seen. It has none of the forbidding appearances of a mining camp, with streets lined with foreigners who can not speak the English language, or their mangy dogs and universal goats laying waste every green thing as well as tin cans and such light dishes "on the side." It is patronized by farmers, and on circus day the belles and beaux are always on hand to laugh at the clown and drink circus lemonade. After all a good circus town makes a desirable place to rear your children. It indicates a strong, healthy, clean agricultural community, where your children are not so liable to contract the "polink" habit. <<< This is from a description of late-19th-century Shickshinny Borough, in Luzerne County, Pennsylvania. No exact date of the text is given, but it seems to be from around the turn of the century. Complete text of the article, which contains no further explanation of the phrase, can be found at http://www.rootsweb.com/~paluzern/patk/shickshny.htm. Thanks, Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jul 2 21:51:20 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 17:51:20 -0400 Subject: block and fall Message-ID: Barry has gone through the autobiography of Izzy Einstein, of the team Izzy and Moe, Prohibition agents: > PROHIBITION AGENT NO. 1 > by Izzy Einstein (former Prohibition Sleuth) > with an introduction by > Stanley Walker (city editor, NY Herald Tribune) > Frderick A. Stokes Company, New York > 1932 > > Izzy Einstein was a famous Probihition agent, but he didn't > provide much slang in this book. Here goes: > Pg. 240: There was a kind of bargain stuff called "block-fall" > which certainly did live up to its name--you took a drink of it, > walked a block, and fell. And from the samples I collected I'd > say it was guaranteed. I have this expression from another source of about the same time, though my source is referring to an earlier period: the last of the 19th century or the first years of the 20th: They used to call them �block and fall joints.� You get a shock walk a block and fall in the gutter. Cornelius W. Willemse, A Cop Remembers, N. Y.: E. P. Dutton, 1933, p. 136. Willemse defines "a shock" as a drink of cheap liquor; on p. 24 he uses "block and fall" in its literal sense as a piece of tackle for lifting things: "We had a block and fall over the hold. . . ." Willemse was a cop, on the NYPD force from the 1890s through the 1920s. He had written his autobiography, "Behind the Green Lights", probably around 1931. It was successful, its pretty easy to find a copy in second-hand book stores. "A Cop Remembers" was a sequel, hoping for the same success, but he had used most of his good stories in the first book -- there's a lesson there for all autobiographers, I suppose -- and it wasn't nearly as successful. I don't remember the last name of Moe, Izzy's partner as a Prohibition agent. Wonder whether he wrote an book too. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Jul 3 02:03:56 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 22:03:56 EDT Subject: hand trucks vs dollies Message-ID: In a message dated 6/19/01 9:07:48 AM, dcamp911 at JUNO.COM writes: << On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:09:31 -0400 "Bethany K. Dumas" writes: > What do you call those vertical entities (some are very heavy-duty - > for > moving refrigeraors and such) that allow you to move heavy loads > easily? Italians. D >> Am I the only one on this list who thinks this person's gratuitous swipe at Italians as nothing better than furniture movers has no place on the list? Or were the rest of you just ignoring him in the hope he would go away? Steve Boatti (a skinny Italian lawyer who has a real hard time moving heavy objects) From pds at VISI.COM Tue Jul 3 02:19:18 2001 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:19:18 -0500 Subject: not really American dialect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 01:52 PM 7/2/2001 -0400, George Thompson wrote: ... >Birdwatchers, by the way, sometimes call small birds from the trees by >either smooching or pssing. I've never had much success with it >myself, but have seen it done. Birds who are hiding in the foliage >will come out onto branches where they are more easily seen, evidently >to check out the source of the noise. The pssing is supposed to be >done very loudly, much more so than when conversing with a cat. The term I've learned (from Audoboners) for this practice is "pishing". Like George, I've never gotten the hang of it. My own experience is that smooching (by which I suppose is meant a very tight bilabial or labio-dental sucking) doesn't work on birds. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From indigo at WELL.COM Tue Jul 3 04:49:58 2001 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:49:58 -0700 Subject: hand trucks vs dollies (Italians) In-Reply-To: <200107030403.VAA10341@smtp.well.com> Message-ID: Wow. I missed that one the 1st time around (having been less than ardent in my recent lurking). That's *really* offensive. There better be an apology coming, is all I can say. >In a message dated 6/19/01 9:07:48 AM, dcamp911 at JUNO.COM writes: > ><< On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:09:31 -0400 "Bethany K. Dumas" > writes: >> What do you call those vertical entities (some are very heavy-duty - >> for >> moving refrigeraors and such) that allow you to move heavy loads >> easily? > >Italians. > >D >> > >Am I the only one on this list who thinks this person's gratuitous swipe at >Italians as nothing better than furniture movers has no place on the list? Or >were the rest of you just ignoring him in the hope he would go away? > >Steve Boatti > >(a skinny Italian lawyer who has a real hard time moving heavy objects) Indigo Som indigo at well.com Every freckle on my face is where it's supposed to be -- India Arie From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jul 3 05:07:33 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 22:07:33 -0700 Subject: hand trucks vs dollies In-Reply-To: <6a.102a6be0.2872820c@aol.com> Message-ID: I had assumed the moderator had given out a private warning and maybe suspended posting privileges. Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA Gambling, gamboling and more at the Riverside Inn in Tukwila! > -----Original Message----- > In a message dated 6/19/01 9:07:48 AM, dcamp911 at JUNO.COM writes: > > << On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:09:31 -0400 "Bethany K. Dumas" > writes: > > What do you call those vertical entities (some are very > heavy-duty - > > for > > moving refrigeraors and such) that allow you to move heavy loads > > easily? > > Italians. > > D >> > > Am I the only one on this list who thinks this person's > gratuitous swipe at > Italians as nothing better than furniture movers has no > place on the list? Or > were the rest of you just ignoring him in the hope he > would go away? > > Steve Boatti From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Tue Jul 3 08:19:18 2001 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 01:19:18 -0700 Subject: "pssing" at cats Message-ID: George Thompson gets around more than most of us, and may have learned this from some Near/Middle Easterners. The first I heard of it was from a Turkish friend, who told me that it was the way cats are called in Turkey. Perhaps not surprisingly, our Persian responds very readily to this, while our Himalayan doesn't. It would be interesting to learn what the regional distribution of this practice is (it is a sort of linguistic behavior, and linguists should pay attention to such things, but don't usually). I wonder how it maps compared to the Turkish gesture for "no", which is to move the head up, then down, resembling (and often confused for) our nodding the head down, then up, for "yes". Rudy From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Jul 3 11:22:39 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 07:22:39 -0400 Subject: hand trucks vs dollies In-Reply-To: <6a.102a6be0.2872820c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 Ittaob at AOL.COM wrote: ><< On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:09:31 -0400 "Bethany K. Dumas" > writes: >> What do you call those vertical entities (some are very heavy-duty - >> for >> moving refrigeraors and such) that allow you to move heavy loads >> easily? > >Italians. Please note that the line at issue was posted by someone other than Bethany K. Dumas. Bethany From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Jul 3 12:04:15 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:04:15 -0400 Subject: "pssing" at cats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rudy, The same in Greece (and other Balkan areas). Roman Jakobson speculated that up-and-down no comes from pulling on the reins of a horse, while back-and-forth yes comes from letting th reins hang free. Cute huh? dInIs >George Thompson gets around more than most of us, and may have learned >this from some Near/Middle Easterners. The first I heard of it was from a >Turkish friend, who told me that it was the way cats are called in Turkey. >Perhaps not surprisingly, our Persian responds very readily to this, while >our Himalayan doesn't. It would be interesting to learn what the regional >distribution of this practice is (it is a sort of linguistic behavior, and >linguists should pay attention to such things, but don't usually). I >wonder how it maps compared to the Turkish gesture for "no", which is to >move the head up, then down, resembling (and often confused for) our >nodding the head down, then up, for "yes". > > Rudy -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 3 12:30:10 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:30:10 EDT Subject: "Black" Work; Greenland Greetings Message-ID: "BLACK" WORK From the COPENHAGEN POST, 29 June-5 July 2001, pg. 3, col. 5: _"Black" attack_ ...anyone found to have paid a worker without also paying the required taxes or VAT, that is so-called "black" work, will be subject to criminal prosecution. (Col. 6--ed.) ..."black" money... The Rockwell Foundation has estimated the "black" economy to be around DKK 34 billion annually... (About 4 billion US dollars--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- GREENLAND GREETINGS Greetings from Ilulissat, Greenland. The mosquitoes say "hi." I don't know if dog or cat language works on them. KOMATIK--ABOVE & BEYOND, May/June 2001, pg. 11, col. 1: "Komatik" is the Inuit word for a long, ladder-like sled. (OED?--ed.) WEB SITES (From ABOVE & BEYOND, pages 18-19: www.frozentoes.com www.inuitcircumpolar.com www.quillikkut-guides.com From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 3 12:38:06 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:38:06 -0400 Subject: FW: hand trucks vs dollies Message-ID: Please, get a sense of humor, or just hit delete and move on. Frank Abate (half Italian, and not offended) -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Ittaob at AOL.COM Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:04 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: hand trucks vs dollies In a message dated 6/19/01 9:07:48 AM, dcamp911 at JUNO.COM writes: << On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:09:31 -0400 "Bethany K. Dumas" writes: > What do you call those vertical entities (some are very heavy-duty - > for > moving refrigeraors and such) that allow you to move heavy loads > easily? Italians. D >> Am I the only one on this list who thinks this person's gratuitous swipe at Italians as nothing better than furniture movers has no place on the list? Or were the rest of you just ignoring him in the hope he would go away? Steve Boatti (a skinny Italian lawyer who has a real hard time moving heavy objects) From arosa at ZOO.UVM.EDU Tue Jul 3 12:39:58 2001 From: arosa at ZOO.UVM.EDU (Alfred Rosa) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:39:58 -0400 Subject: hand trucks vs dollies (Italians) Message-ID: Would the moderator of the ADS list please speak up with regard to the anti-Italian slur referred to below? Al Rosa ____________________ Professor Alfred Rosa 304 Old Mill Department of English University of Vermont Burlington, VT 05405-1140 Phone: 802-656-4139 Fax: 802-656-3055 Email: arosa at zoo.uvm.edu Web Site: www.uvm.edu/~arosa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Indigo Som" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 12:49 AM Subject: Re: hand trucks vs dollies (Italians) > Wow. I missed that one the 1st time around (having been less than ardent in > my recent lurking). That's *really* offensive. There better be an apology > coming, is all I can say. > > >In a message dated 6/19/01 9:07:48 AM, dcamp911 at JUNO.COM writes: > > > ><< On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:09:31 -0400 "Bethany K. Dumas" > > writes: > >> What do you call those vertical entities (some are very heavy-duty - > >> for > >> moving refrigeraors and such) that allow you to move heavy loads > >> easily? > > > >Italians. > > > >D >> > > > >Am I the only one on this list who thinks this person's gratuitous swipe at > >Italians as nothing better than furniture movers has no place on the list? Or > >were the rest of you just ignoring him in the hope he would go away? > > > >Steve Boatti > > > >(a skinny Italian lawyer who has a real hard time moving heavy objects) > > Indigo Som > indigo at well.com > > Every freckle on my face is where it's supposed to be -- India Arie From Pam at MOMEMORYLANE.COM Tue Jul 3 13:19:08 2001 From: Pam at MOMEMORYLANE.COM (Pamela Boyer Porter) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:19:08 -0500 Subject: Hosepipe? In-Reply-To: <200107022103.tk2h0c.h5o.37tiu1c@crane> Message-ID: Has anyone on this list heard the term "hosepipe" used for a garden hose? A friend in south-central Kentucky/north-central Tennessee assures me that it is commonly used there, but I hadn't run across it before. We're wondering if it is unique to that area. Thanks, Pamela Boyer Porter Chesterfield, MO From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 3 13:23:54 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:23:54 EDT Subject: "Black" Work; Greenland Greetings Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/01 8:31:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > From the COPENHAGEN POST, 29 June-5 July 2001, pg. 3, col. 5: > > _"Black" attack_ > ...anyone found to have paid a worker without also paying the required > taxes or VAT, that is so-called "black" work, will be subject to criminal > prosecution. > (Col. 6--ed.) ..."black" money... > The Rockwell Foundation has estimated the "black" economy to be around > DKK 34 billion annually... (About 4 billion US dollars--ed.) I doubt there is any connection between this use of "black" and "black" (i.e. falsely attributed) propaganda. In the US tax-avoiding payments to workers are sometimes called "under the table" or "underground". When some Clinton nominees were caught doing this, the newspapers simply said "failed to pay taxes on...". I am told that the Russians also use a directional rather than a visual metaphor: "nalevo", meaning "on the left". This is an interesting metaphor considering that the government of the Soviet Union was definitely "on the left". Anyone on the list an expert on this particular financial sector? I think the newspaper writer made a mistake. My understanding is that the VAT (value-added tax). like the US sales tax, is based solely on the PRICE of the item and has nothing to do with how much the workers are paid. If you give your workers a raise without changing the price you charge for your manufactures, then your VAT should stay the same, although the government (hopefully) collects additional taxes on the wage raise. - Jim Landau Systems Engineer FAA Technical Center (ACT-350/BCI) Atlantic City Airport NJ 08405 USA From arosa at ZOO.UVM.EDU Tue Jul 3 13:36:05 2001 From: arosa at ZOO.UVM.EDU (Alfred Rosa) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:36:05 -0400 Subject: handtrucks vs. dollies and ethnic joke Message-ID: Here we go again. Mr. Abate writes that he's half Italian and not offended by the joke. What does that mean? All four of my grandparents came from Italy, so I am more than half Italian. I have not lost my sense of humor (especially when I see it!), and I am not ready to have someone tell me to "move on." I am not prepared to have someone tell ethnic jokes at not only at my expense but also at anyone else's. Who and where is the moderator of this list? One can't expect intelligence and sensitivity from every one who subscribes, but one can expect that the moderator will carry out his/her duties in keeping the mal educati from affronting the rest of us. The simple test for this sort of thing is to substitute any other ethnicity for the reference to Italians and see how far that joke flies. I have not spent my professional life trying to educate people to a more enlightened regard for others' ethnicity, race, religion, gender, and sexual orientation to have this sort of slur pop up on one of the professional listervs to which I subscribe, especially one devoted to language use, and not say anything about it. It would be nice to think that all members of the list would also decry such a posting. It might say a lot about who we are and what we believe in. Al Rosa ____________________ Professor Alfred Rosa 304 Old Mill Department of English University of Vermont Burlington, VT 05405-1140 Phone: 802-656-4139 Fax: 802-656-3055 Email: arosa at zoo.uvm.edu Web Site: www.uvm.edu/~arosa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Abate" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 8:38 AM Subject: FW: hand trucks vs dollies > Please, get a sense of humor, or just hit delete and move on. > > Frank Abate > (half Italian, and not offended) > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Ittaob at AOL.COM > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:04 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: hand trucks vs dollies > > > In a message dated 6/19/01 9:07:48 AM, dcamp911 at JUNO.COM writes: > > << On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:09:31 -0400 "Bethany K. Dumas" > writes: > > What do you call those vertical entities (some are very heavy-duty - > > for > > moving refrigeraors and such) that allow you to move heavy loads > > easily? > > Italians. > > D >> > > Am I the only one on this list who thinks this person's gratuitous swipe at > Italians as nothing better than furniture movers has no place on the list? > Or > were the rest of you just ignoring him in the hope he would go away? > > Steve Boatti > > (a skinny Italian lawyer who has a real hard time moving heavy objects) From einstein at FROGNET.NET Tue Jul 3 13:35:55 2001 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:35:55 -0400 Subject: "Black" Work Message-ID: When I lived in Germany ('75-6) "black" was used for illegal activity (as in the English "black market"); I remember "black hand" for riding the tram without buying a ticket--easy to do on an honor system of buying your own ticket & cancelling it when you boarded. -- db ___________________________________________________________ David Bergdahl einstein at frognet.net tel: (740) 592-1617 home page: http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Tue Jul 3 13:43:46 2001 From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:43:46 -0500 Subject: Hosepipe? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: DARE has a single example of "hosepipe" for a garden hose, from central North Carolina. At 08:19 AM 7/3/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Has anyone on this list heard the term "hosepipe" used for a garden hose? A >friend in south-central Kentucky/north-central Tennessee assures me that it >is commonly used there, but I hadn't run across it before. We're wondering >if it is unique to that area. > >Thanks, >Pamela Boyer Porter >Chesterfield, MO > From OKH at COMPUSERVE.COM Tue Jul 3 13:46:56 2001 From: OKH at COMPUSERVE.COM (Orin Hargraves) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:46:56 -0400 Subject: legal term sought Message-ID: Can anyone supply a US equivalent or near-equivalent for the British legal term "affiliation order," a court order requiring the father of an illegitimate child to make child-support payments. Thanks, and please reply directly me at this address or orinhargraves at aol.com Orin Hargraves From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 3 14:03:23 2001 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 07:03:23 -0700 Subject: Pork Scratches on the Whipped Cream Front In-Reply-To: <26.17a2420f.2872092d@aol.com> Message-ID: --- Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: .... > > WEINERBROD--The "Danish" pastry here in Copenhagen. .... Let me guess... the Danes call Danish pastries Viennese pastries? ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Tue Jul 3 14:05:06 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 15:05:06 +0100 Subject: Hosepipe? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Tuesday, July 3, 2001 8:19 am -0500 Pamela Boyer Porter wrote: > Has anyone on this list heard the term "hosepipe" used for a garden hose? > A friend in south-central Kentucky/north-central Tennessee assures me > that it is commonly used there, but I hadn't run across it before. We're > wondering if it is unique to that area. It's general British English. Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jul 3 14:08:06 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:08:06 -0400 Subject: Italians and Jokes Message-ID: On mardi 3 juillet 2001 09:36, Alfred Rosa wrote: >I have not spent my professional life trying to educate people to a more >enlightened regard for others' ethnicity, race, religion, gender, and sexual >orientation to have this sort of slur pop up on one of the professional >listervs to which I subscribe, especially one devoted to language use, and >not say anything about it. It would be nice to think that all members of >the list would also decry such a posting. It might say a lot about who we >are and what we believe in. I am as inclined to condemn the unreasonably outraged and inappropriately indignant list members as I am the original poster. If anyone wants to address the issue, they should speak directly to the original poster (whose email address is obviously available) off-list rather than trying to raise a mob on-list. -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ 78 South Third Street Apt. No. 1 Brooklyn, NY 11211 718 384 8271 From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jul 3 14:08:41 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:08:41 -0400 Subject: Hosepipe? Message-ID: > Has anyone on this list heard the term "hosepipe" used for a garden hose? A > friend in south-central Kentucky/north-central Tennessee assures me that it > is commonly used there, but I hadn't run across it before. I've encountered it but I can't remember where. M-W (Web) shows it (= "hose") as "chiefly British". Cambridge (Web) shows it as a "British" variant of "hose". Macquarie (Web) (Australian) shows it as = "hose". Apparently it is widespread. -- Doug Wilson From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Jul 3 14:06:53 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:06:53 -0400 Subject: pssing and smooching Message-ID: Is smooching to dogs and pssing to cats really just my own idiolect? I thought that everyone did it. When I meet a dog who seems eager to make a new friend, I make a kissing sound -- as Tom Kysilko says, a tight bilabial sucking -- if the dog responds favorably, I offer my fingers for sniffing. When I want to get the attention of my cats, or other cats, I make a puh -- a bilabial plosive, I think? -- followed by a long hiss. It was my impression that that sound was the origin of the word puss or pussy, meaning cat, because it was universally used in addressing them. I have not looked this up, though. I also knew at least one other person who was accustomed to smooch to strange dogs, as an ice-breaker. As regards their understanding of English, I can proudly say that my cats recognize thousands of English commands. They only obey two -- well, one almost always and one sometimes -- but they understand all the others, and only disregard them after giving them careful thought. My cats are brothers, about 5; their mother was an American domestic shorthair, their father an undocumented alien from the former Soviet, a longhair. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rudolph C Troike Date: Tuesday, July 3, 2001 4:19 am Subject: "pssing" at cats > George Thompson gets around more than most of us, and may have learned > this from some Near/Middle Easterners. The first I heard of it was > from a > Turkish friend, who told me that it was the way cats are called in > Turkey.Perhaps not surprisingly, our Persian responds very readily > to this, while > our Himalayan doesn't. It would be interesting to learn what the > regionaldistribution of this practice is (it is a sort of > linguistic behavior, and > linguists should pay attention to such things, but don't usually). I > wonder how it maps compared to the Turkish gesture for "no", which > is to > move the head up, then down, resembling (and often confused for) our > nodding the head down, then up, for "yes". > > Rudy > From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 3 14:19:18 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:19:18 -0400 Subject: FW: handtrucks vs. dollies and ethnic joke Message-ID: This is marginally (if not more) off-topic, though it does have to do with the use and the effects of language. Anyway, here goes, in reply to Prof. Rosa (cc'd below): What I meant by my remark was that I am more resentful of the criticism of supposed ethnic and racial slurs than I am about the supposed slurs themselves, as long as the supposed slurs (I would call them jokes) are delivered in a spirit of true humor, not intended to be taken seriously. There's a vast difference between a joke and a slur. One need consider the intention and attitude of the teller. I just saw a funny one today, sent by a friend of strong Jewish heritage, that had a Jewish person as the butt of the joke. Please tell me what's wrong with that. btw, the same person sends jokes that poke fun at all types of people and things. No one is left out. Again, I see no problem, given the intent. I mention being half Italian merely to show that those of a particular background are not necessarily offended by jokes that poke fun at their own background. There are blonde jokes, Irish jokes, Polish jokes, Jewish jokes, Italian jokes, Greek jokes, Catholic jokes, cripple jokes, Nazi jokes -- the list goes on and on. Some are in bad taste. Some are just not funny (as can happen with any type of joke). But some are funny, dammit, and I honestly see no harm in them, if the intention of the teller is clearly to be funny, not demeaning. Sure they pick on stereotypes that most people dismiss as silly or ignorance-borne. But the stereotypes are out there, and widely known (if not accepted), and are used as the butt of humor, as are other characteristics or supposed characteristics of people, animals, etc. Of course, it is not a good idea to tell certain jokes in front of each and every audience, or on radio or TV, but that is another matter. Dictionaries offer guidance on all this by way of register labels -- from "informal" to "coarse slang" to "vulgar" to "taboo" to "disparaging and offensive". Users of the language need to be aware of the possibly negative connotations of words, and to use or avoid them to fit the audience and the medium. That is a matter of wise use of language. I am not only proudly anti-PC, but am a fervent supporter of those who skewer PC-ness. I equate much of what passes today as "sensitivity" to being hounded by thought police. I find restrictions borne of "PC thinking" very troubling in a free society, and lacking in a far more important kind of sensitivity. And I think such anti-speech sensitivity expressed on a forum (ADS list) that explores the ins and outs of language (all language, I hope) to be more troubling, esp. given the knowledge and training of the list users. I recall the Reinhold Aman journal Maledicta, which recorded all manner of offensive and taboo speech and writing. It was a serious approach taken to a real issue of language. The sensitivity of modern times takes nothing away from the fact that all language is fit for study, and that some jokes are based on stereotypes that spring out of the society itself. Attempts to control, engineer, or outlaw language or its jokes are futile, and I hope will always remain so. Let me make clear that I am among the first to brand those who wield genuine slurs as hateful and destructive. The whole lot of bigots, xenophobes, and others who spout heartfelt (or peer-pressure, or show-off) hatreds should be ridiculed and ignored, though we can't ever shut them up -- at least in the US. My suggestion to those who are still offended by such things as the "Italian" punchline is to lighten up, hit delete, and move on. I found it funny, and I suspect I was not alone, even on the ADS list. In closing, let me say that I consider myself to be well educated. The above says what I honestly believe. Feel free to disagree, of course. Frank Abate (also half Polish; Polish jokes OK, too) -----Original Message----- From: Alfred Rosa [mailto:arosa at zoo.uvm.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 9:36 AM To: abatefr at earthlink.net; ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: handtrucks vs. dollies and ethnic joke Here we go again. Mr. Abate writes that he's half Italian and not offended by the joke. What does that mean? All four of my grandparents came from Italy, so I am more than half Italian. I have not lost my sense of humor (especially when I see it!), and I am not ready to have someone tell me to "move on." I am not prepared to have someone tell ethnic jokes at not only at my expense but also at anyone else's. Who and where is the moderator of this list? One can't expect intelligence and sensitivity from every one who subscribes, but one can expect that the moderator will carry out his/her duties in keeping the mal educati from affronting the rest of us. The simple test for this sort of thing is to substitute any other ethnicity for the reference to Italians and see how far that joke flies. I have not spent my professional life trying to educate people to a more enlightened regard for others' ethnicity, race, religion, gender, and sexual orientation to have this sort of slur pop up on one of the professional listervs to which I subscribe, especially one devoted to language use, and not say anything about it. It would be nice to think that all members of the list would also decry such a posting. It might say a lot about who we are and what we believe in. Al Rosa ____________________ Professor Alfred Rosa 304 Old Mill Department of English University of Vermont Burlington, VT 05405-1140 Phone: 802-656-4139 Fax: 802-656-3055 Email: arosa at zoo.uvm.edu Web Site: www.uvm.edu/~arosa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Abate" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 8:38 AM Subject: FW: hand trucks vs dollies > Please, get a sense of humor, or just hit delete and move on. > > Frank Abate > (half Italian, and not offended) > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Ittaob at AOL.COM > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:04 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: hand trucks vs dollies > > > In a message dated 6/19/01 9:07:48 AM, dcamp911 at JUNO.COM writes: > > << On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:09:31 -0400 "Bethany K. Dumas" > writes: > > What do you call those vertical entities (some are very heavy-duty - > > for > > moving refrigeraors and such) that allow you to move heavy loads > > easily? > > Italians. > > D >> > > Am I the only one on this list who thinks this person's gratuitous swipe at > Italians as nothing better than furniture movers has no place on the list? > Or > were the rest of you just ignoring him in the hope he would go away? > > Steve Boatti > > (a skinny Italian lawyer who has a real hard time moving heavy objects) From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Jul 3 14:41:07 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:41:07 -0400 Subject: words Message-ID: I am still thinking of offering a special topics course soon - Xtreme Talk. As I said earlier, I'd like to call it Trash Talk, but don't think I will get approval for that - it would attract students, even though I would not limit content to trash talk, narrowly defined. I want to focus on the various functions of what one might call Xtreme talk - like Frank A., I think the speaker's intent and role identity play a huge part in the meaninng of the message. Has ayone else taught such a course? In my classrooms, no words are off limits, though I use and recommend discretion depending on the situation. I thought the "Italians" response was very funny, very appropriate, very witty. It played on the vagueness inherent in the word "entities" (deliberately selected to avoid any hint of the term I was looking for in my question) and broadened the scope of my question. It also acknowleged a certain social reality in some contexts. It certainly did not state or - in my reading - even imply that Italians are primarily furniture-movers, though it suggested that in some contexts, the people most ikely to be available to be furniture movers may be Italian. (In Italy, for instance.) And if any of you skinny guys have trouble moving heavy objects, let me know. I have learned to use dollies and appliance dollies like you won't believe - I can tell you how to do it! Bethany From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jul 3 14:43:13 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:43:13 -0400 Subject: legal term sought Message-ID: As I understand it, an affiliation order is a court order declaring paternity. It is sometimes combined with a maintenance order, which orders child support payments. I'm not aware of any general American equivalent, although there may be specialized terms in some jurisdictions. Most American lawyers would simply refer to a court order declaring paternity and ordering child support. John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: Orin Hargraves [SMTP:OKH at COMPUSERVE.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 9:47 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: legal term sought > > Can anyone supply a US equivalent or near-equivalent for the British legal > term "affiliation order," a court order requiring the father of an > illegitimate child to make child-support payments. > > Thanks, and please reply directly me at this address or > > orinhargraves at aol.com > > Orin Hargraves From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Tue Jul 3 15:01:17 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:01:17 -0400 Subject: gillygalou bird Message-ID: This item apparently comes from Canadian French, but it was observed in Canadian English. Does anyone recognize it or have an idea about it? A correspondent asks: >>>>> My paternal grandfather was all French-Canadian [...], and my father's standing April Fool joke came from him. It was (caution, semi-phonetic spelling of word(s) no French speaker I've ever asked has recognized): "Look, look!! There's a gillygalou bird!" Ever seen/heard that before? <<<<< -- Mark Mark A. Mandel : Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Senior Linguist 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 3 03:28:42 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:28:42 +0800 Subject: pssing and smooching In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:06 AM -0400 7/3/01, George Thompson wrote: >Is smooching to dogs and pssing to cats really just my own idiolect? >I thought that everyone did it. Pss(t)-ing to cats (strange cats and my own, including the current three) is definitely in my idiolect too, but not smooching to dogs. larry From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jul 3 15:26:26 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:26:26 -0400 Subject: gillygalou bird Message-ID: The gillygaloo bird lays square eggs so they won't roll away. Several instances of this spelling found by Google, e.g.: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/9134/gillygaloo.htm -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 3 03:33:35 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:33:35 +0800 Subject: words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:41 AM -0400 7/3/01, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > >I thought the "Italians" response was very funny, very appropriate, very >witty. It played on the vagueness inherent in the word "entities" >(deliberately selected to avoid any hint of the term I was looking >for in my question) and broadened the scope of my question. It also >acknowleged a certain social reality in some contexts. > >It certainly did not state or - in my reading - even imply that Italians >are primarily furniture-movers, though it suggested that in some contexts, >the people most ikely to be available to be furniture movers may be >Italian. > What she said. (And also what Frank A. said about jokes =/= slurs.) larry From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jul 3 15:57:11 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:57:11 -0700 Subject: Pork Scratches on the Whipped Cream Front In-Reply-To: <20010703140323.99082.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: --On Tuesday, July 3, 2001 7:03 AM -0700 James Smith wrote: >> >> WEINERBROD--The "Danish" pastry here in Copenhagen. > .... > Let me guess... the Danes call Danish pastries > Viennese pastries? ...and misspell "Wiener"? **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Tue Jul 3 16:46:29 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 12:46:29 -0400 Subject: ethnic jokes In-Reply-To: <003101c103c5$2c59ae40$e70b5bd1@b5l0m01> Message-ID: Let's not forget the acrimonious debates on this list a few years ago re. Ebonics. Telling ethnic jokes on one's own group to one who will understand and accept is one thing; telling jokes in public to an anonymous audience is quite another, and better avoided. A local librarian told me a "joke" about African Americans recently, and then hastened to add that "a black friend" told it to him. Sorry, not acceptable. But let's extend this prohibition to sex- and gender-based comments, which sneak in here frequently and quite gratuitously, to wit: COPENHAGEN NOTE I was last here a few months ago, and I'm relieved to find that the Little Mermaid is not pregnant. At 09:36 AM 7/3/01 -0400, you wrote: >Here we go again. Mr. Abate writes that he's half Italian and not offended >by the joke. What does that mean? All four of my grandparents came from >Italy, so I am more than half Italian. I have not lost my sense of humor >(especially when I see it!), and I am not ready to have someone tell me to >"move on." I am not prepared to have someone tell ethnic jokes at not only >at my expense but also at anyone else's. > >Who and where is the moderator of this list? One can't expect intelligence >and sensitivity from every one who subscribes, but one can expect that the >moderator will carry out his/her duties in keeping the mal educati from >affronting the rest of us. The simple test for this sort of thing is to >substitute any other ethnicity for the reference to Italians and see how far >that joke flies. > >I have not spent my professional life trying to educate people to a more >enlightened regard for others' ethnicity, race, religion, gender, and sexual >orientation to have this sort of slur pop up on one of the professional >listervs to which I subscribe, especially one devoted to language use, and >not say anything about it. It would be nice to think that all members of >the list would also decry such a posting. It might say a lot about who we >are and what we believe in. > >Al Rosa >____________________ >Professor Alfred Rosa >304 Old Mill >Department of English >University of Vermont >Burlington, VT 05405-1140 >Phone: 802-656-4139 >Fax: 802-656-3055 >Email: arosa at zoo.uvm.edu >Web Site: www.uvm.edu/~arosa >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Frank Abate" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 8:38 AM >Subject: FW: hand trucks vs dollies > > > > Please, get a sense of humor, or just hit delete and move on. > > > > Frank Abate > > (half Italian, and not offended) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > > Of Ittaob at AOL.COM > > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:04 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: hand trucks vs dollies > > > > > > In a message dated 6/19/01 9:07:48 AM, dcamp911 at JUNO.COM writes: > > > > << On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:09:31 -0400 "Bethany K. Dumas" > > writes: > > > What do you call those vertical entities (some are very heavy-duty - > > > for > > > moving refrigeraors and such) that allow you to move heavy loads > > > easily? > > > > Italians. > > > > D >> > > > > Am I the only one on this list who thinks this person's gratuitous swipe >at > > Italians as nothing better than furniture movers has no place on the list? > > Or > > were the rest of you just ignoring him in the hope he would go away? > > > > Steve Boatti > > > > (a skinny Italian lawyer who has a real hard time moving heavy objects) _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Jul 3 17:45:08 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:45:08 EDT Subject: ethnic jokes Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/01 12:49:06 PM, flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU writes: << Let's not forget the acrimonious debates on this list a few years ago re. Ebonics. Telling ethnic jokes on one's own group to one who will understand and accept is one thing; telling jokes in public to an anonymous audience is quite another, and better avoided. A local librarian told me a "joke" about African Americans recently, and then hastened to add that "a black friend" told it to him. Sorry, not acceptable. But let's extend this prohibition to sex- and gender-based comments, which sneak in here frequently and quite gratuitously, to wit: COPENHAGEN NOTE I was last here a few months ago, and I'm relieved to find that the Little Mermaid is not pregnant. >> Hear, hear. My original objection to the tasteless Italian "joke" had nothing to do with political correctness or lack of sense of humor. I love a good Italian joke, in context, among a group of acquaintances and meant in good fun, as much as anyone. But there's a difference between a joke meant in good fun and a gratuitous, demeaning remark published to a large anonymous audience. As Prof. Rosa suggested, intent is all. While I cannot really divine the intent of the original poster, a remark casting Italians as a group as furniture movers, published with no discernable context in a linguistics list, strikes me as demeaning and disparaging. I note the original poster has yet to respond to this thread. Further, if such a "joke" had been made on this list about say, Mexicans, I doubt there would've been so many calls for those offended to "lighten up." Somehow, European ethnics (Irish, Polish, Italians) seem to be the last acceptable butts of public ethnic humor. Steve Boatti (once known among his friends as the Italian Stallion) From Amcolph at AOL.COM Tue Jul 3 18:55:17 2001 From: Amcolph at AOL.COM (Ray Ott) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 14:55:17 EDT Subject: Hosepipe? Message-ID: What is the origin of the sea-shanty "What shall we do with the drunken sailor?". put 'im in the scupper with a hose-pipe on 'im er-lie in the morning. Ray Ott From Amcolph at AOL.COM Tue Jul 3 18:57:27 2001 From: Amcolph at AOL.COM (Ray Ott) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 14:57:27 EDT Subject: pssing and smooching Message-ID: In Morocco, one says "msssh, msssh" to cats. Ray ott From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Tue Jul 3 19:49:53 2001 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 15:49:53 EDT Subject: pssing and smooching Message-ID: I also refuse to believe "pssing" and "smooching" are idiolectal. I've always done it. Everyone in my family does it. My roommate does it. We're all from Southern Illinois. I prefer it to the "kittykittykitty" as I can never seem to get my tounge to flap that fast. But it's less a "puh" and more like the "ps" in french, quickly and repetitively. Incidentally, we also use it when talking to babies. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Southern Illinois University - Carbondale From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU Tue Jul 3 19:55:59 2001 From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 15:55:59 -0400 Subject: pssing and smooching In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What about "clucking" to animals? I do that to dogs and cats (actually, any furry animal) and sometimes "smooch" to them, but I don't think anyone in my family makes the "pssing" noise. I don't make any kind of distinction between the noises I make for dogs and cats. And I'm also from Southern Illinois... Johanna Excerpts from mail: 3-Jul-101 Re: pssing and smooching by Douglas Bigham at AOL.COM > I also refuse to believe "pssing" and "smooching" are idiolectal. > > I've always done it. Everyone in my family does it. My roommate does it. We > 're all from Southern Illinois. I prefer it to the "kittykittykitty" as I can > never seem to get my tounge to flap that fast. > > But it's less a "puh" and more like the "ps" in french, quickly and repetitive > ly. Incidentally, we also use it when talking to babies. From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Tue Jul 3 20:01:21 2001 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:01:21 EDT Subject: legal term sought Message-ID: Would this fall under the "dead-beat dad laws" we (suposedly) have in the US? -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Southern Illinois University - Carbondale From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Jul 3 20:06:27 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:06:27 -0400 Subject: For : Bethany Dumb Ass (fwd) Message-ID: I want to be certain that everyone on the list gets to enjoy the high intellectual content of the private message I just received. Bethany ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:48:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Trimtantre at aol.com To: dumasb at utkux.utcc.utk.edu Subject: For : Bethany Dumb Ass Bethany K. Dumas" writes on the ADS (American Dialect Society) listerv.: Question: What do you call those vertical entities (some are very heavy-duty - for moving refrigeraors and such) that allow you to move heavy loads easily? Answer: Italians. ================================================== My Question : What do you call a Bethany who is a Bigot? Answer: A "Dumas"! Pronounced "Dumb Ass" Regards, Richard Annotico trimtantre at aol.com PS. To those dozens I have blind copied, please excuse my resorting to rather idiotmatic semiotics. And yes, idiomatic was purposely "modified" to better suit the circumstances. And I will not mention that Bethany needs to learn how to spell "refrigerator". Perhaps, if that word is too polysyllabic, she might try "ice box" or "cooler". Is this Bethany person of that "ilk" belong on a presumably "intellectual" Bulletin Board, and why would the Board permit such a "posting"? Perhaps, this is another example that "education" does not necessarily make one wiser, and certainly not more "civilized". From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 3 20:34:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:34:45 EDT Subject: Chopper Surfing, Mattak & Suaasat, Kayak Message-ID: CHOPPER SURFING From a brochure: NEW: CHOPPER SURFING over the icebergs of Ilulissat, the ultimate experience in the arctic! You fly over the turqoise coloured glacial lakes, blue tops, deep crevettes, tunnel and gates. -------------------------------------------------------- MATTAK & SUAASAT OED? From GREENLAND TOURISM 97-98, pg. 33: Greenland's national dish is suaasat, a strong soup with seal meat cooked with rice and onions as a side dish. Mattak, a great delicacy, is whale skin with a thin layer of blubber, which is normally eaten raw, cut into small cubes. It can be a little strong, but while you chew, a nutty flavour slowly develops. Mattak soup and grilled mattak are a little more refined. Whale meat itself resembles beef in appearance, and is a lovely dish when served roasted with soft onions and boiled potatoes. -------------------------------------------------------- KAYAK From another guide: The word "kayak" is derived from the Greenlandic word "qajaq". In recent years, Greenlanders have shown increasing interest in kayaking. From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Tue Jul 3 20:53:45 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 21:53:45 +0100 Subject: Bethany... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The person who posted this to Bethany should be excluded from the list, since he is not adhering to its terms, and his harassing behavior should be reported to his ISP. He is not taking part in the discussion, not actually addressing the points that Bethany made, but rather making ad hominem attacks. In a debate over the role of intention in offensiveness, I think this guy's intentions come through loud and clear. He will go off and tell his friends that those "intellectuals" find him too much of a threat, but we'll know the real reason he doesn't belong here--that he doesn't know how to behave in an e-mail list. Was Bethany the only participator he targetted? Btw, a lot of people have been asking for the list moderator to come in and do something about potentially offensive posts, but the list has no moderator. See: http://www.americandialect.org/adsl.shtml. Lynne --On Tuesday, July 3, 2001 4:06 pm -0400 "Bethany K. Dumas" wrote: > I want to be certain that everyone on the list gets to enjoy the > high intellectual content of the private message I just received. > > Bethany > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:48:01 -0400 (EDT) > From: Trimtantre at aol.com > To: dumasb at utkux.utcc.utk.edu > Subject: For : Bethany Dumb Ass > > Bethany K. Dumas" writes > on the ADS (American Dialect Society) listerv.: > > Question: What do you call those vertical entities (some are very > heavy-duty - for moving refrigeraors and such) that allow you to move > heavy loads easily? > > Answer: Italians. > ================================================== > My Question : What do you call a Bethany who is a Bigot? > > Answer: A "Dumas"! Pronounced "Dumb Ass" > > Regards, > > Richard Annotico > trimtantre at aol.com > > PS. To those dozens I have blind copied, please excuse my resorting to > rather idiotmatic semiotics. > > And yes, idiomatic was purposely "modified" to better suit the > circumstances. > > And I will not mention that Bethany needs to learn how to spell > "refrigerator". > Perhaps, if that word is too polysyllabic, she might try "ice box" or > "cooler". > > Is this Bethany person of that "ilk" belong on a presumably "intellectual" > Bulletin > Board, and why would the Board permit such a "posting"? > > Perhaps, this is another example that "education" does not necessarily > make one wiser, and certainly not more "civilized". M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jul 3 20:54:21 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:54:21 -0400 Subject: legal term sought Message-ID: No. A "deadbeat dad" law presumes that paternity has been established. Instead, the dead-beat dad law is directed at enforcing the child support obligation. John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Bigham [SMTP:TlhovwI at AOL.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 4:01 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: legal term sought > > Would this fall under the "dead-beat dad laws" we (suposedly) have in the > US? > > -dsb > Douglas S. Bigham > Southern Illinois University - Carbondale From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Tue Jul 3 21:22:43 2001 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:22:43 -0400 Subject: ethnic jokes Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2001 12:46:29 -0400 Beverly Flanigan > Telling ethnic jokes on one's own group to one who will > understand and accept is one thing; telling jokes in public to an > anonymous > audience is quite another, and better avoided. You are absolutely right, of course. I regretted it the moment I hit the send key. The next morning I told my wife that I was afraid to turn on my computer, and she immediately said, "Who have you offended now?" She is Jewish and the chair of a regional diversity project, and after 40 years she knows my weaknesses. I am sorry this has belatedly upset the tenuous tranquility of this list. If anyone wishes to further excoriate me, I would request for the sake of others on the list that you do it to my personal address. D From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 3 09:58:49 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:58:49 +0800 Subject: Bethany... In-Reply-To: <339013.3203186025@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: At 9:53 PM +0100 7/3/01, Lynne Murphy wrote: >The person who posted this to Bethany should be excluded from the list, >since he is not adhering to its terms, and his harassing behavior should be >reported to his ISP. On a closer look, it's fairly clear from the context that Mr. Annotico is not currently a subscriber to our list, and that he was instead forwarded a paraphrase of the ads-l exchange by a member of the list. He seems to be unaware, inter alia, that ads-l is not a bulletin board, and that Bethany is hardly responsible for the typo in the message to which she was writing a comeback. So I'm afraid that much as we may wish to remove Mr. Annotico from the list, this would be an impossibility. larry >--On Tuesday, July 3, 2001 4:06 pm -0400 "Bethany K. Dumas" > wrote: > >>I want to be certain that everyone on the list gets to enjoy the >>high intellectual content of the private message I just received. >> >>Bethany >> >>---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:48:01 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Trimtantre at aol.com >>To: dumasb at utkux.utcc.utk.edu >>Subject: For : Bethany Dumb Ass >> >>Bethany K. Dumas" writes >>on the ADS (American Dialect Society) listerv.: >> >>Question: What do you call those vertical entities (some are very >>heavy-duty - for moving refrigeraors and such) that allow you to move >>heavy loads easily? >> >>Answer: Italians. >>================================================== >>My Question : What do you call a Bethany who is a Bigot? >> >>Answer: A "Dumas"! Pronounced "Dumb Ass" >> >>Regards, >> >>Richard Annotico >>trimtantre at aol.com >> >>PS. To those dozens I have blind copied, please excuse my resorting to >>rather idiotmatic semiotics. >> >>And yes, idiomatic was purposely "modified" to better suit the >>circumstances. >> >>And I will not mention that Bethany needs to learn how to spell >>"refrigerator". >>Perhaps, if that word is too polysyllabic, she might try "ice box" or >>"cooler". >> >>Is this Bethany person of that "ilk" belong on a presumably "intellectual" >>Bulletin >>Board, and why would the Board permit such a "posting"? >> >>Perhaps, this is another example that "education" does not necessarily >>make one wiser, and certainly not more "civilized". > > > >M Lynne Murphy >Lecturer in Linguistics >School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences >University of Sussex >Brighton BN1 9QH >UK > >phone +44-(0)1273-678844 >fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 3 22:32:12 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:32:12 EDT Subject: gillygalou bird Message-ID: In a message dated 07/03/2001 11:28:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, douglas at NB.NET writes: > The gillygaloo bird lays square eggs so they won't roll away. I beg to differ. According to Louis Untermeyer _The Wonderful Adventures of Paul Bunyan_ New York: The Heritage Press, 1945 The Pinnacle Hen, true to its name, lived on the top of the mountains. Big as an ostrich, her peculiarity was that she had only one wing; so she kept on flying around in circles. She could steer herself up and down and sideways, but never in a straight line. Since she made her nest on the very peak of the mountain and since she could always perch on a cloud, she was content. Besides, she didn't have anywhere to go. Another peculiarity about the Pinnacle Hen was that she laid square eggs. This was a good and sensible thing, for it prevented them from slipping out of the nest and rolling down the mountain. - Jim Landau P.S. Once in college I got up early on Easter Sunday and left Easter baskets for my friends. For one of them, a chain smoker, I put a package of cigarettes in his basket. Forever after he referred to me as "the Jewish Easter Bunny who lays square eggs." From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Jul 3 22:58:50 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:58:50 -0400 Subject: Moi (was "Bethany ...") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have received a few (supportive) private messages re the offensive private messages I received. They all seem well-intentioned, and I thank you. I do not, at the moment, see any reason to continue posting about this particular issue/incident, so unless greatly provoked, or unless I think I have something new to contribute, I shall not do so. If I do, I shall, as always, post to the list. Bethany From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 3 23:01:58 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:01:58 EDT Subject: words Message-ID: In a message dated 07/03/2001 10:41:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes: > I am still thinking of offering a special topics course soon - Xtreme > Talk. As I said earlier, I'd like to call it Trash Talk, but don't think I > will get approval for that - it would attract students, even though I > would not limit content to trash talk, narrowly defined. "Xtreme Talk" is a poor title because there are people who are unable to conduct a conversation without using a plethora of four-letter words. To such a person, polite discourse would amount to Extreme Talk. My recommendation is that you call it "Street Language", unless you want to insure that you get only scholarly students, in which case you should bill it as "Billingsgate" with no further explanation. - Jim Landau From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Jul 3 23:38:21 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:38:21 -0400 Subject: words In-Reply-To: <5b.182c6218.2873a8e6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, James A. Landau wrote: >"Xtreme Talk" is a poor title because there are people who are unable to >conduct a conversation without using a plethora of four-letter words. To >such a person, polite discourse would amount to Extreme Talk. Thanks for a new perspective on this, Jim. Actually, I like the idea that some students would think of polite discourse as Xtreme talk, My goal would be to teach a non-threatening intro to lang variation/sociolx course in which we would move from examples (and history) of street talk, etc., to alternatives, concluding with a study of the roles of intentionality and context. It was my undergraduate students (in Technical and Professional Writing) who came up with the course name). Bethany From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Jul 4 00:56:13 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 20:56:13 -0400 Subject: KKK mentality there (fwd) Message-ID: One more private message with high intellectual content: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:04:52 -0500 (CDT) From: walter santi To: dumasb at utkux.utcc.utk.edu Subject: KKK mentality there Anybody that would post such racial jokes about any one must run around with a bed sheet over his head . Walter Santi From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 4 03:33:53 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:33:53 EDT Subject: Twelve Words for Ice (Greenland, Denmark expressions) Message-ID: My tour guide was from Denmark, so most of these are about Denmark rather than Greenland. TWELVE WORDS FOR ICE--a German guide through the icebergs told us that Greenlandic has 12 words for ice. COUNT TO TWELVE--also, that Greenlanders count to 12 in Greenlandic, and then use Danish for the high numbers. GREENLANDIC COFFEE--served at my Hotel Hvide Falk, but I was told it's not unique to this hotel. It's a heated glass filled with Kahlua and Ballentine's, and then a heated spoonful of Grand Marnier, with coffee and cream. Or something like that--I haven't checked the web. NICKEL COFFEE--Or, "five ore" coffee if you insist on a literal translation from the Danish. Drop the nickel in a cup, pour coffee until you can't see the nickel, then schnapps until you see the nickel again. SCHNAPPS--potato juice. DRUNK AS A GREENLANDER or GREENLAND DRUNK or GREENLAND PISSED--alcoholism is a problem here. NO COW IN THE ICE--no problem! (Danish?) GRANTBERG--something that doesn't work out. After the failed Danish balloonist of this name. TALK OVER THE POPE'S BEARD--a futile discussion (the pope doesn't have a beard). "The emperor's beard" is a variant. KARL-SMART--too smart (Danish). KING CARROT--acting too important or like a big shot (Danish). HERRING or SHARD (as in glass)--attractive woman (Danish). PERKER--Persian (Danish). "Shawarma" should be in both M-W and OED, because you might mistake it for the Danish national dish when walking through Copenhagen. The country has immigrants from Iran and Iraq. TAIL NEGRO--African. GRITTY BLACK--someone from the Middle East. EAST HOOKER--women from Eastern European countries now outnumber the Thais in this profession. Not that I'd know anything about that. It is not illegal to sell prostitution in Denmark, but it's illegal to buy. My THIS WEEK IN COPENHAGEN had about ten pages in the back advertising the stuff--not that I looked. WHO PEED ON YOUR SUGAR SANDWICH?--Danish description for a sour person. Sugar sandwich is something handed out to kids. WHEN IT RAINS ON THE PRIEST, IT DRIPS ON THE PRIEST'S ASSISTANT--nepotism/graft happens (Danish proverb). BLOWING A PELLICAN--Danish weather expression like "raining cats and dogs." EAGLE--good (Danish). DOG--to fancy something, such as "he's a dog for soccer" (Danish). FARTING FOR THE PRICE--bargaining (Danish). SEXUAL POSITIONS (not that I'd know anything about this): DANISH--missionary. (Chuckle from guide--ed.) FRENCH--oral. GERMAN--S&M. GREEK--anal. SWEDISH--by hand. SPANISH--by the breasts. ITALIAN--by the armpit. (Not that I've got anything against Italians. Some of my best friends are Italian--or Danish. I gotta go--it's after 1 a.m. DOES IT EVER GET DARK IN THIS PLACE??--ed.) From philippabrewis at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 4 07:05:34 2001 From: philippabrewis at HOTMAIL.COM (Philippa Brewis) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 07:05:34 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Jul 4 10:59:06 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 06:59:06 -0400 Subject: Your "Italian" Joke (fwd) Message-ID: Yet another: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 23:06:30 -0400 From: Pat DeMarzo To: dumasb at utkux.utcc.utk.edu Subject: Your "Italian" Joke Bethany, In this day and age of political correctness, why are "Italian jokes" (and insulting ones at that) still acceptable in public forums? Additionally, i suggest that you open up a couple of (non revisionist) history books and refresh yourself on the contributions to Western (and World) culture and civilization made by Italy and its scions -- Literally from A to Z ... from accounting to zoology! Shame on you. Patrick DeMarzo Member, Italian-American "One Voice" Committee _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Wed Jul 4 11:31:47 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:31:47 +0100 Subject: Your "Italian" Joke (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It seems like someone on the list forwarded this to an Italian-American discussion group or something. It should probably be pointed out that forwarding things outside a list is not kosher unless you have the original poster's permission. If someone really wanted to use this as an example to others of how people talk/think about Italian jokes and didn't want to ask Bethany's permission, then they should have stripped the message of her name, e-mail address, and other addresses. L. M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 4 12:12:52 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 08:12:52 EDT Subject: "Reverse Elian" Message-ID: The 4 July 2001 NEW YORK POST has a cover story about a "Reverse Elian"--a kid from the United States who goes to Cuba. GREENLAND NAMING--the European names are Danish, Dutch, and German. It appears that the Dutch and the German are the first to be re-named. This town of Ilulissat ("iceberg" in Greenlandic) used to be called Jacob's Town, and still is in some parts of Germany. Unfortunately, I won't have an opportunity to speak with someone in an ANS-equivalent organization. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Jul 4 12:28:40 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 08:28:40 -0400 Subject: Your Italian Joke (fwd) Message-ID: It's also worth pointing out (again) that Bethany *was not* responsible for the comment in question. The original post is repeated below. A half moment's attention would show that Bethany's comment was the one responded to, not the "Italians" response itself. >In a message dated 6/19/01 9:07:48 AM, dcamp911 at JUNO.COM writes: > ><< On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:09:31 -0400 "Bethany K. Dumas" > writes: >> What do you call those vertical entities (some are very heavy-duty - >> for >> moving refrigeraors and such) that allow you to move heavy loads >> easily? > >Italians. > >D >> -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ 78 South Third Street Apt. No. 1 Brooklyn, NY 11211 718 384 8271 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 4 01:28:18 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:28:18 +0800 Subject: Twelve Words for Ice (Greenland, Denmark expressions) In-Reply-To: <35.1761d0cb.2873e8a3@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:33 PM -0400 7/3/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >BLOWING A PELLICAN--Danish weather expression like "raining cats and dogs." > >EAGLE--good (Danish). > >DOG--to fancy something, such as "he's a dog for soccer" (Danish). > Maybe we should notify the Greeland branch of the "Animal-friendly sayings" organization. Perhaps they won't object to "eagle" meaning 'good'; it's certainly less offensive than hitting an eagle (or, for that matter, a birdie) in golfers' English. (Henceforth, a birdie shall be known as an unbogey and an eagle a double unbogey.) The Greenlanders' "be a dog for" is dubious, though, and the first of the above expressions must *certainly* be suppressed. larry From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Wed Jul 4 14:32:07 2001 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 10:32:07 EDT Subject: pssing and smooching Message-ID: Like Larry, I and my family are cat psssers but we don't smooch at dogs-- that would strike me as being something a little too cute, something the over-the-top dog lovers like those in "Best in Show" would do. Dale Coye The College of NJ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Jul 4 18:40:02 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:40:02 -0400 Subject: For : Bethany Dumb Ass (fwd) Message-ID: I am going to forward to the list every message of this type that I get. We need to share the wealth, I think. But I am not (with one exception) replying to any of these ill-informed idiots. All this is serving one useful purpose - it underscores the enormously important role of context in communication. Bethany ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 11:07:19 -0700 From: Joseph Balletta To: Trimtantre at aol.com Cc: dumasb at utkux.utcc.utk.edu Subject: Re: For : Bethany Dumb Ass I agree education doesn't make one free of there bigotries, that is formal education,because formal education is still steeped in racial predjudices. However, when one has the opportunity to read what they want in a more generalist fashion, there education becomes more well- rounded. Specialization doesn't make for Renaissance individualists. Formal education is usually geared to fit someone into the market place and doesn't make one a scholar! Out of all the things one can say about Italians the fact that this "individual" has made a joke in absolutely vile taste(NonTaste) indicates that she is tasteless and usually tasteless people can be mean as well(that is small). Maybe, Mrs Ebenezer Scrooge will see the light yet? balletta at efn.org Trimtantre at aol.com wrote: > > Bethany K. Dumas" writes > on the ADS (American Dialect Society) listerv.: > > Question: What do you call those vertical entities (some are very heavy-duty - > for moving refrigeraors and such) that allow you to move heavy loads easily? > > Answer: Italians. > ================================================== > My Question : What do you call a Bethany who is a Bigot? > > Answer: A "Dumas"! Pronounced "Dumb Ass" > > Regards, > > Richard Annotico > trimtantre at aol.com > > PS. To those dozens I have blind copied, please excuse my resorting to rather > idiotmatic semiotics. > > And yes, idiomatic was purposely "modified" to better suit the circumstances. > > And I will not mention that Bethany needs to learn how to spell > "refrigerator". > Perhaps, if that word is too polysyllabic, she might try "ice box" or > "cooler". > > Is this Bethany person of that "ilk" belong on a presumably "intellectual" > Bulletin > Board, and why would the Board permit such a "posting"? > > Perhaps, this is another example that "education" does not necessarily make > one wiser, and certainly not more "civilized". From LJT777 at AOL.COM Wed Jul 4 18:53:31 2001 From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:53:31 EDT Subject: For : Bethany Dumb Ass (fwd) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/4/01 2:40:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes: > I am going to forward to the list every message of this type that I get. > We need to share the wealth, I think. I speak only for myself, but I ask that you not forward any more of these messages to us. I'm not sure what purpose can be served. It seems to me that there has been a great deal of self-righteousness on all sides. Perhaps we can let the issue die a natural death. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Jul 4 19:10:24 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 15:10:24 -0400 Subject: For : Bethany Dumb Ass (fwd) In-Reply-To: <36.182b2055.2874c02b@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2001 LJT777 at AOL.COM wrote: >I speak only for myself, but I ask that you not forward any more of these >messages to us. I'm not sure what purpose can be served. I am not sure, either. However, I do not intend to endure the craziness alone. I do not enjoy receiving these message any more than you do. Bethany From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Jul 4 19:42:08 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:42:08 -0500 Subject: messages received by B. Dumas Message-ID: The messages which Bethany Dumas have been receiving are quite disturbing. Is there perhaps someone in our group who can draft a thoughtful reply to the Italian-American discussion group explaining that she did not post the original message and that an apology has already been issued by the member who did? Bethany is right; she should not be bearing this hassle alone. She shouldn't be bearing it at all, of course, but meanwhile, maybe a well-written message might help put this issue to rest. ---Gerald Cohen >On Wed, 4 Jul 2001 LJT777 at AOL.COM wrote: > >>I speak only for myself, but I ask that you not forward any more of these >>messages to us. I'm not sure what purpose can be served. > >I am not sure, either. However, I do not intend to endure the craziness >alone. I do not enjoy receiving these message any more than you do. > >Bethany From LJT777 at AOL.COM Wed Jul 4 19:47:16 2001 From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 15:47:16 EDT Subject: For : Bethany Dumb Ass (fwd) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/4/01 3:12:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes: > I do not intend to endure the craziness > alone. I do not enjoy receiving these message any more than you do. I'm sure you don't like finding these nasty notes in your mail; however, I don't understand your determination to inflict them on us. I sympathize with you, but please just delete them. Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. --Groucho Marx From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Jul 4 20:16:55 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:16:55 -0400 Subject: For : Bethany Dumb Ass (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4b.dc26194.2874ccc4@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2001 LJT777 at AOL.COM wrote: >I'm sure you don't like finding these nasty notes in your mail; however, I >don't understand your determination to inflict them on us. I sympathize with >you, but please just delete them. It is not my intention (or "determination") to "inflict" them on you - it is my intention to make it clear that I think these messages and the discussion that prompted them are in some way the joint responsibility of all members of this community, not just me. (See Gerald Cohen's thoughtful and sensitive note.) If you ever receive such notes for a similar reason, I hope that you will share them with the relevant community. Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 4 20:27:21 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:27:21 EDT Subject: Kalaalit (Greenlander) Message-ID: KALAALIT From a brochure: The term "Eskimo" is no long used. Greenlanders refer to themselves as "kalaalit", and the Greenlandic name of Greenland is "Kalaallit Nunaat", which means "kalaalit's land". (Could be one of these things like Everest or Ayer's Rock. Everyone here, in my experience, uses "Greenland"--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- TUPILAK From Pg. 79 of FACTS ABOUT GREENLAND 97-98: Also much sought after are tupilak, originally a type of bad luck charm against enemies, which people made using parts of the skeletons of various animals, sewn into a skin and lined with peat. (OED?--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- MISC. GREENLANDIC COFFEE--the SAS-sponsored Hotel Arctic here has "Gronlansk Kaffe (Ikke Flambert). MORE FROM MY DANISH GUIDE: BACKBOARD INDIAN--a homosexual. I asked him for any terms for gays, and he came up with this, but another Dane had never heard of it. The guide said that "Backboard" means "starboard," as on a ship. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 4 20:29:33 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:29:33 EDT Subject: Kalaalit (Greenlander) Message-ID: "Kalaallit" is correct. Sorry for the typo. From LJT777 at AOL.COM Wed Jul 4 20:46:57 2001 From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:46:57 EDT Subject: For : Bethany Dumb Ass (fwd) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/4/01 4:17:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes: > It is not my intention (or "determination") to "inflict" them on you - it > is my intention to make it clear that I think these messages and the > discussion that prompted them are in some way the joint responsibility of > all members of this community, not just me. (See Gerald Cohen's thoughtful > and sensitive note.) If you ever receive such notes for a similar reason, > I hope that you will share them with the relevant community. Gerald Cohen's idea is an excellent one. I would suggest that the person who made the joke be the one to write the letter. To receive badly written, ill-tempered mail is disagreeable enough, but to be falsely accused of being a bigot is worse. I am truly sorry that you have been maligned by these misinformed people. Nonetheless, I repeat my earlier assertion that to forward these unpleasant notes to the list only serves to fuel the issue. Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. --Groucho Marx From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Wed Jul 4 21:47:15 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 22:47:15 +0100 Subject: For : Bethany Dumb Ass (fwd) In-Reply-To: <89.8e6cbaf.2874dac1@aol.com> Message-ID: I agree with Gerald C and Bethany that she shouldn't have to suffer the e-mail abuse alone. I also agree with Gerald C that a note should be written to that list (or whatever it is), but I think (contrary to LJT777 at AOL.COM) that it is the person who forwarded Bethany's note to the list (and thus allowed for her to be harassed in this way) who bears the responsibility for doing so. If the person who originally posted the joke were to mail to that list, I think it's predictable that he would then become the subject of added e-mail harassment. He's apologized to us, and that is all that he is responsible for. If instead the forwarder sends it to that group, then it's an insider to that group who is serving as the emissary from our group, and the cycle of harassment should stop there. Besides, s/he will already know how to contact the group! Back to my harping about e-mail etiquette, could LJT777 at AOL.COM (and everyone else) please sign your notes? (I don't believe you're Groucho Marx!) Alternatively, you could put your name into the user settings for e-mail in your system so that your name is associated with your e-mail address in the headers of your e-mails. (I have no idea how to do that on AOL, but oh well.) Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Jul 5 14:29:17 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:29:17 -0400 Subject: gillygalou bird Message-ID: Jim Landau notes: "Another peculiarity about the Pinnacle Hen was that she laid square eggs. This was a good and sensible thing, for it prevented them from slipping out of the nest and rolling down the mountain." Actually, seabirds that nest on ledges lay conical eggs, (unlike the oval shape of hen's eggs,) with the result that if they roll they will roll in a tight circle and be less likely to fall off the ledge. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Thu Jul 5 14:46:43 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:46:43 -0400 Subject: gillygalou bird Message-ID: (Apologies if this appears twice. My server crashed while I was creating this message the first time and I don't know if it went out or not.) My correspondent corrects my inference about the dialect in which she observed the phrase: >>>>> At 11:01 AM 7/3/01 -0400, you wrote: >This item apparently comes from Canadian French, but it was observed in >Canadian English. Does anyone recognize it or have an idea about it? A >correspondent asks: Never Canadian English. My g'g'g'father is the one who I believe moved from the Montreal area to the Detroit area. That quarter of my pedigree is all French, excepting the drop of Spanish that goes with the surname. [...] "When I get a little money, I buy books. And if any is left, I buy food and clothes." - Erasmus <<<<< Mark A. Mandel : Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Senior Linguist 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Jul 5 15:00:52 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:00:52 -0400 Subject: begging the question Message-ID: I have on several occasions heard Gary Cohen, a radio broadcaster for the NY Mets, use the phrase "beg the question" incorrectly. This past weekend, in wrapping up a four-game series between the Mets and the Atlanta Braves, he said something to the effect that "This series begs the question: Can the Mets go 2 for 37 with runners in scoring position and still win 2 out of 4 games against a team like the Braves?" I had resolved to post this to this group, as a matter of some interest, but before I could do so I heard Michael Kay, a Yankees radio broadcaster, give the elected All-Star Game lineup and say something like: "This begs the question: what players most deserve to be chosen by the managers to fill out the team." These quotations beg the question: is it becoming a common usage to use the phrase "beg the question" as if it means "asks the question" or "raises the question"? I see Cohen's use of this term as differing somewhat from Kay's. The question that Cohen begged can have a simple "yes" or "no" answer, or more precisely, "evidently, since it has just happened". When Kay begged his question, he was not looking for a short answer, but opening a topic for discussion. I believe that Cohen is more or less young. Michael Kay has described himself as 40. He is from NYC. I do not describe this usage as "incorrect" without much thought, nor, indeed without some trepidation, since I know that it will subject me to the scorn of the anti-prescriptivists among us. However, the phrase "begs the question" has a history that shows it to have a specific meaning, (as does the history of the word "nonplus", discussed here several months ago). I do not know another concise way to express the historic meaning of "beg the question". Cohen's and Kay's notion of the meaning of the expression can be expressed with "asks the question" or "raises the question". But nothing in this paragraph should be taken to imply that I am unconscious of the folly of shovelling shit against the tide. If people choose to use "begs the question" in the Cohen/Kay sense, it will happen. But I don't need to stand on the sidelines cheering, either. The rants that have been posted here in the past against perceived prescriptivism have reminded me at times of the communist-baiting of the 40s and 50s, but somehow colorless. A more vigorous vocabulary is needed, like "prescriptie bastard" or "prescript-symp". Just a suggestion. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Jul 5 15:25:09 2001 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:25:09 -0400 Subject: begging the question In-Reply-To: <11d47b611d6fb2.11d6fb211d47b6@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: THERE ARE ANTIPRESCRIPTIVISTS AMONG US? WHAT ARE THEY? LINGUISTS? SHOULD WE SEEK THEM OUT AND EXPOSE THEM? DINIS >I have on several occasions heard Gary Cohen, a radio broadcaster for >the NY Mets, use the phrase "beg the question" incorrectly. This past >weekend, in wrapping up a four-game series between the Mets and the >Atlanta Braves, he said something to the effect that "This series begs >the question: Can the Mets go 2 for 37 with runners in scoring position >and still win 2 out of 4 games against a team like the Braves?" I had >resolved to post this to this group, as a matter of some interest, but >before I could do so I heard Michael Kay, a Yankees radio broadcaster, >give the elected All-Star Game lineup and say something like: "This >begs the question: what players most deserve to be chosen by the >managers to fill out the team." These quotations beg the question: is >it becoming a common usage to use the phrase "beg the question" as if >it means "asks the question" or "raises the question"? > >I see Cohen's use of this term as differing somewhat from Kay's. The >question that Cohen begged can have a simple "yes" or "no" answer, or >more precisely, "evidently, since it has just happened". When Kay >begged his question, he was not looking for a short answer, but opening >a topic for discussion. > >I believe that Cohen is more or less young. Michael Kay has described >himself as 40. He is from NYC. > >I do not describe this usage as "incorrect" without much thought, nor, >indeed without some trepidation, since I know that it will subject me >to the scorn of the anti-prescriptivists among us. However, the >phrase "begs the question" has a history that shows it to have a >specific meaning, (as does the history of the word "nonplus", discussed >here several months ago). I do not know another concise way to express >the historic meaning of "beg the question". Cohen's and Kay's notion >of the meaning of the expression can be expressed with "asks the >question" or "raises the question". But nothing in this paragraph >should be taken to imply that I am unconscious of the folly of >shovelling shit against the tide. If people choose to use "begs the >question" in the Cohen/Kay sense, it will happen. But I don't need to >stand on the sidelines cheering, either. > >The rants that have been posted here in the past against perceived >prescriptivism have reminded me at times of the communist-baiting of >the 40s and 50s, but somehow colorless. A more vigorous vocabulary is >needed, like "prescriptie bastard" or "prescript-symp". Just a >suggestion. > >GAT > >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African >Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jul 5 16:09:09 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 09:09:09 -0700 Subject: begging the question In-Reply-To: <11d47b611d6fb2.11d6fb211d47b6@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: Using "beg the question" synonymously with "raise the question" seems pretty widespread in broadcast journalism. It certainly isn't confined to sportscasters: I hear it all the time on ABC News and I think also NPR. I think this usage was discussed awhile back on this list. Peter Mc. --On Thursday, July 5, 2001 11:00 AM -0400 George Thompson wrote: > I have on several occasions heard Gary Cohen, a radio broadcaster for > the NY Mets, use the phrase "beg the question" incorrectly. [snip] These quotations beg the question: is > it becoming a common usage to use the phrase "beg the question" as if > it means "asks the question" or "raises the question"? **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 5 05:00:17 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:00:17 +0800 Subject: begging the question In-Reply-To: <216753.3203312949@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: At 9:09 AM -0700 7/5/01, Peter A. McGraw wrote: >Using "beg the question" synonymously with "raise the question" seems >pretty widespread in broadcast journalism. It certainly isn't confined to >sportscasters: I hear it all the time on ABC News and I think also NPR. I >think this usage was discussed awhile back on this list. Yes, it was. I also remember being asked about such (not to beg the question) "extended" uses of the expression on the Usage Panel survey for ADH4, but now that I have the edition, I can't find any entry for "beg the question" at all (at least not under "beg" or "question"). Or maybe it was for the entry to appear in AHD5. I seem to have repressed my response--I probably did let my recessive prescriptivist genes whale (or is it wail?) away at this one. larry > >Peter Mc. > >--On Thursday, July 5, 2001 11:00 AM -0400 George Thompson > wrote: > >>I have on several occasions heard Gary Cohen, a radio broadcaster for >>the NY Mets, use the phrase "beg the question" incorrectly. > >[snip] > > These quotations beg the question: is >>it becoming a common usage to use the phrase "beg the question" as if >>it means "asks the question" or "raises the question"? > > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 5 17:48:14 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:48:14 EDT Subject: gillygalou bird Message-ID: In a message dated 7/5/01 11:10:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM writes: > My correspondent corrects my inference about the dialect in which she > observed the phrase [gillygalou bird]: > > >>>>> > At 11:01 AM 7/3/01 -0400, you wrote: > >This item apparently comes from Canadian French, but it was observed in > >Canadian English. Does anyone recognize it or have an idea about it? A > >correspondent asks: > > Never Canadian English. My g'g'g'father is the one who > I believe moved from the Montreal area to the Detroit > area. That quarter of my pedigree is all French While I have read several collections of Paul Bunyan stories, I don't know anything significant about the ORIGIN of the Paul Bunyan legend. A book I read many years ago (it may have been entitled _Yankee Doodle's Cousins_) tells the story that Paul came from Francophone Canada, and was already accompanied by his blue ox, Bebe. When they stepped over the US border, they magically became Anglophones (and Bebe was renamed Babe). I have never encountered any other versions of the Paul Bunyan legend that gave his origin as anything other than the USA. Does anyone have additional data on this? - Jim Landau (who also lays square eggs) PS. "Gillygalou" sounds Irish to me. Probably I'm thinking of such Celtic phoneticisms as "Gilgarry Mountain", "gallowglass", "gillie", "Gilligan", and the British Admiral "Billy Blue" Cornwallis and his sidekick Captain Pellew. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Jul 5 19:17:22 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:17:22 -0400 Subject: gillygalou bird Message-ID: Regarding the life and loves of Paul Bunyan: Looking over quickly the entries on Bunyan in The Funk & Wagnall's Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and Legend, Maria Leach, ed., 1949 (under PB); American Folklore: An Encyclopedia, Jan Harold Brunvand, ed., 1996; and the Penguin Dictionary of American Folklore, Alan Axelrod, ed., 2000 (in both under B, P), it seems that though Bunyan has roots in Canadian folklore, the widespread familiarity with his story, and the tales generally known about him, are the work of several known journalists and a publicist for a lumber company, all writing in the early decades of the 20th century, and of later writers, including of course the Disney studio. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James A. Landau" Date: Thursday, July 5, 2001 1:48 pm Subject: Re: gillygalou bird > In a message dated 7/5/01 11:10:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM writes: > > > My correspondent corrects my inference about the dialect in > which she > > observed the phrase [gillygalou bird]: > > > > >>>>> > > At 11:01 AM 7/3/01 -0400, you wrote: > > >This item apparently comes from Canadian French, but it was > observed in > > >Canadian English. Does anyone recognize it or have an idea > about it? A > > >correspondent asks: > > > > Never Canadian English. My g'g'g'father is the one who > > I believe moved from the Montreal area to the Detroit > > area. That quarter of my pedigree is all French > > While I have read several collections of Paul Bunyan stories, I > don't know > anything significant about the ORIGIN of the Paul Bunyan legend. > A book I > read many years ago (it may have been entitled _Yankee Doodle's > Cousins_)tells the story that Paul came from Francophone Canada, > and was already > accompanied by his blue ox, Bebe. When they stepped over the US > border, they > magically became Anglophones (and Bebe was renamed Babe). > > I have never encountered any other versions of the Paul Bunyan > legend that > gave his origin as anything other than the USA. Does anyone have > additionaldata on this? > > - Jim Landau (who also lays square eggs) > > PS. "Gillygalou" sounds Irish to me. Probably I'm thinking of > such Celtic > phoneticisms as "Gilgarry Mountain", "gallowglass", "gillie", > "Gilligan",and the British Admiral "Billy Blue" Cornwallis and his > sidekick Captain > Pellew. > From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Jul 5 20:33:22 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:33:22 -0400 Subject: gillygalou bird In-Reply-To: <12980fc129c800.129c80012980fc@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: As I remember my folkore studies of long ago, Paul Bunyan was the most frequently cited example of fakelore, a somewhat technical term used by folklorists for items which are made up in popular culture or literary (rather tha oral) tradidtions to "imitate" oral lore. Net and other cultures make this distinction a less clear-cut one today (IMHO). dInIs >Regarding the life and loves of Paul Bunyan: > >Looking over quickly the entries on Bunyan in The Funk & Wagnall's >Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and Legend, Maria Leach, >ed., 1949 (under PB); American Folklore: An Encyclopedia, Jan Harold >Brunvand, ed., 1996; and the Penguin Dictionary of American Folklore, >Alan Axelrod, ed., 2000 (in both under B, P), it seems that though >Bunyan has roots in Canadian folklore, the widespread familiarity with >his story, and the tales generally known about him, are the work of >several known journalists and a publicist for a lumber company, all >writing in the early decades of the 20th century, and of later writers, >including of course the Disney studio. > >GAT > >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African >Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "James A. Landau" >Date: Thursday, July 5, 2001 1:48 pm >Subject: Re: gillygalou bird > >> In a message dated 7/5/01 11:10:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >> Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM writes: >> >> > My correspondent corrects my inference about the dialect in >> which she >> > observed the phrase [gillygalou bird]: >> > >> > >>>>> >> > At 11:01 AM 7/3/01 -0400, you wrote: >> > >This item apparently comes from Canadian French, but it was >> observed in >> > >Canadian English. Does anyone recognize it or have an idea >> about it? A >> > >correspondent asks: >> > >> > Never Canadian English. My g'g'g'father is the one who >> > I believe moved from the Montreal area to the Detroit >> > area. That quarter of my pedigree is all French >> >> While I have read several collections of Paul Bunyan stories, I >> don't know >> anything significant about the ORIGIN of the Paul Bunyan legend. >> A book I >> read many years ago (it may have been entitled _Yankee Doodle's >> Cousins_)tells the story that Paul came from Francophone Canada, >> and was already >> accompanied by his blue ox, Bebe. When they stepped over the US >> border, they >> magically became Anglophones (and Bebe was renamed Babe). >> >> I have never encountered any other versions of the Paul Bunyan >> legend that >> gave his origin as anything other than the USA. Does anyone have >> additionaldata on this? >> >> - Jim Landau (who also lays square eggs) >> >> PS. "Gillygalou" sounds Irish to me. Probably I'm thinking of >> such Celtic >> phoneticisms as "Gilgarry Mountain", "gallowglass", "gillie", >> "Gilligan",and the British Admiral "Billy Blue" Cornwallis and his >> sidekick Captain >> Pellew. >> -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From lanehart at ARCHES.UGA.EDU Fri Jul 6 01:19:02 2001 From: lanehart at ARCHES.UGA.EDU (Sonja L. Lanehart) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 21:19:02 -0400 Subject: Fwd: STANDARD ENGLISH IN BLACK COMMUNITIES: A SURVEY Message-ID: Sorry for cross-posting. I'm trying to help out a fellow researcher as indicated below. >X-Sender: trammell at pop.fau.edu >Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 19:47:24 -0400 >To: "Ame Cividanes" , > "Anita Pandey" , > Brandy S Byrd , "Bethany K. Dumas" >, > "Robert M Hammond" , > "William A. Kretzschmar" , > "Elizabeth Sommer" , > "Jacob Caflisch, Sr." , > "Connie Eble" , > "Charles Ruhl" , > "Charles W. White" , > "Daniel L. Everett" , > "David Sutcliffe" , > "Elaine Miller" , "James Malek" , > "John McWhorter" , > No f98 "Jean Oliver" , > "John Rickford" , > "Jeff Siegel" , Kirk Hazen , > "Kathy Leffel" , > "Karl Nicholas" , > "Linda Rosa-Lugo" , > "Masako A. Dorill" , > MARC PICARD , > Mario Saltarelli , > "Mary Zeigler" , > "Roger Shuy" , > "Ralf Thiede" , > "Sherri Condon" , "Sonja Lanehart" , > "John Staczek" , > Walt Wolfram >From: Robert Trammell >Subject: STANDARD ENGLISH IN BLACK COMMUNITIES: A SURVEY >Cc: "Nannetta Durnell-Uwechue" >Status: > >MEMORANDUM >TO: African Americans & other People of African Descent > >FROM: Dr. Nannetta Durnell-Uwechue, Department of Communication > Dr. Robert Trammell, Department of Languages and Linguistics > Florida Atlantic University > >RE: National Website Survey for Standard English Speakers >from the Black >Community > >Hello, > >We need your help. If we haven't already heard from you, Robert and I have >created a Survey on "Learning Standard English in Black Communities in the >United States." The survey is anonymous and largely multiple choice. Our >survey is currently on the Web at . The >questions from the survey address areas which include: (1) your personal >attitudes towards Standard English and Ebonics, (3) the amount of Standard >English used in your home, (4) memorable learning experiences in and out >of school, and (5) other areas related to how and when you learned Standard >English. > >The feedback from 50 or so who have taken the survey thus far said it was a >fun walk down memory lane, and they're looking forward to seeing the >overall results from the study. We will present the results of our survey >to an international gathering of scholars in Hawai'i on October 6, 2001. >We would like to have as many people as posssible complete the survey >before that, but will continue to gather data for awhile after that. If >you see ways to expose it to more people, students, or whomever, please do. > >It is our hope that the information compiled from hundreds of people will >enable the education community to improve its teaching materials and >teacher education methods for those interested in learning or teaching >Standard English, and provide knowledge and insight in understanding the >staying power of Ebonics. > >If you have additional questions, please feel free to contact us.: > >Robert L. Trammell, Prof. of Linguistics (Out of town 7/6 to about 8/13) >Department of Languages and Linguistics >Florida Atlantic University >777 Glades Road >Boca Raton, FL 33431 >Tel: (561) 297-3867 >Fax: (561) 297-2657 >Email: trammell at fau.edu > >Nannetta Durnell-Uwechue, Assoc. Prof. >Depart of Communication, >Florida Atlantic University >777 Glades Road >Boca Raton, FL 33431 >Tel: (561) 297-3894 >Fax: (561) 297-4460 >Email: Durnell at fau.edu > >We're looking forward to hearing from you! > >Thanks > > > > > > >TO: Administrators, Faculty, Staff, & Students of African >American & >African Descent at Florida Atlantic University > >FROM: Dr. Nannetta Durnell-Uwechue, Department of Communication > Dr. Robert Trammell, Department of Languages and Linguistics > >DATE: June 18, 2001 > >RE: National Website Survey for Standard English Speakers >from the Black >Community > >Do you believe Ebonics is good or bad for society? Regardless of how you >feel, Ebonics is being spoken in many communities, even though it hasn't >been the focus of media attention lately. > >We need your help. If we haven't already heard from you, Robert and I have >created a Survey on "Learning Standard English in Black Communities in the >United States." The survey is anonymous and largely multiple choice. Our >survey is currently on the Web >at http://www.linguistics.fau.edu/trammell. The questions from the survey >address areas which include: your personal attitudes towards Standard >English and Ebonics, the amount of Standard English used in your home, >memorable learning experiences in and out of school, and other areas >related to how and when you learned Standard English. The feedback from >those who have taken the survey thus far said it was a fun walk down memory >lane, and they're looking forward to seeing the overall results from the >study. > >It is our hope that the information compiled from hundreds of people will >enable the education community to improve its teaching materials and >teacher education methods for those interested in learning or teaching >Standard English, and provide knowledge and insight in understanding the >power and language of Ebonics. > >If you have additional questions, please feel free to contact us.: > >Robert L. Trammell, Prof. of Linguistics Nannetta >Durnell-Uwechue, Assoc. >Prof. >Department of Languages and Linguistics Department of Communication >Florida Atlantic University Florida >Atlantic University >777 Glades Road 777 Glades Road >Boca Raton, FL 33431 Boca Raton, FL 33431 >Tel: (561) 297-3867 Tel: (561) 297-3894 >Fax: (561) 297-2657 Fax: (561) 297-4460 >Email: trammell at fau.edu Email: durnell at fau.edu > >We're looking forward to hearing from you! > >Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Robert L. Trammell, Professor of Linguistics E-Mail: TRAMMELL at fau.edu >Department of Languages and Linguistics >Florida Atlantic University >777 Glades Rd., Boca Raton, FL 33431 TEL: (561) 297-3867 FAX: 297-2657 ************************************************************** Sonja L. Lanehart Department of English 706-542-2260 (office) University of Georgia 706-542-1261 (messages) 300 Park Hall 706-542-2181 (fax) Athens, GA 30602-6205 lanehart at arches.uga.edu ************************************************************** From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jul 6 02:43:06 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 21:43:06 -0500 Subject: "cheese hound" -- query Message-ID: I am currently compiling vol. 1 of a dictionary of baseball and other slang in the sports columns (primarily baseball) of the newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_, Feb. through May 1913. Most of the terms I've come across are now clear to me, but there are some 12 items for which I draw a blank. The first one is "cheese hound." The context in which it appears is nonsensical, and the term may have simply been made up in a whimsical vein by the writer of the quote below. Still, is anyone familiar with it? And might there be any rationale to "cheese" appearing in the term? The quote appears on May 31, 1913, p.10, col. 5, in 'Sporting Tit-Bits by "Mac"': 'Charley Cleaver's great Siberian cheese hound, King C., took much delight in showing up all comers at the dog show in Dreamland rink yesterday. Mr. Cleaver's daring cheese hound has it on all rivals. Cleaver's pet canine can wag his tail in seven languages, and orders "ine stein" with all the eclat of a Teuton fully illuminated at a Schutzenfest. Mr. Cleaver's canine was recently imported from Vladivostok. He is frequently on exhibition at Mr. Cleaver's place of call on Steiner and Sutter streets. Cleaver swears by the cheese hound and is willing to take an affidavit that even his hair is imported.' --Gerald Cohen From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 6 03:05:24 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 20:05:24 -0700 Subject: "cheese hound" -- query Message-ID: keeshond? assuming, of course, that a dog (real or fictitious) is involved. arnold From rkm at SLIP.NET Fri Jul 6 06:53:46 2001 From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 23:53:46 -0700 Subject: Southern Advice In-Reply-To: <4b.dcdf8d4.2876667c@aol.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Fri Jul 6 08:28:12 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:28:12 +0100 Subject: "cheese hound" -- query Message-ID: Could it be a transliteration of the Dutch 'Keeshond' (pron. 'kayshont' - not absolutely sure as to the spelling), whic, as far as I know is a comparatively wellknown breed. I once owned one, or thought I did -until we were informed that the pup tht we had ben sold was in fact a Finnish Spitz. Jonathon Green From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Jul 6 11:46:24 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 07:46:24 -0400 Subject: "cheese hound" -- query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gerald, In my speech (laid down in Louisville KY in the 1940's) , a "cheese hound" refers both literally to the fact that the dog likes cheese and will hunt all over a room to find even a tidbit of it and to the fact that this in-the-house training makes the dog useless ("cheesy") for field sports. In the quote you cited, there appears to be no connection with the well-known "X+hound" construction (many of which are sexual) in which the "hound" lusts after "X" (and is usually a person not a dog). I suspect your quote makes fun of a dog worthless for hunting (with its amazing multilingual tail-wagging ability). I would be surprised if there were no old-timers down your way who are not familiar with this "cheese hound" = "good-for-nothing dog." As I recall, there is also "biscuit hound" (or "bisuit-eating dog") from other regions of the south used to refer to a table-scraps fed dog, which, acocoding to hunting dog owners, makes dogs "soft" and no good for the field. (See "biscuit-eater" DARE vol. 1 , p. 246. "Cheese-eater" is also there - p. 603 - but only from African-Americans and in what, IMHO, may be an extended sense from the canine original.) dInIs > I am currently compiling vol. 1 of a dictionary of baseball and >other slang in the sports columns (primarily baseball) of the >newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_, Feb. through May 1913. Most of >the terms I've come across are now clear to me, but there are some 12 >items for which I draw a blank. > > The first one is "cheese hound." The context in which it appears >is nonsensical, and the term may have simply been made up in a >whimsical vein by the writer of the quote below. Still, is anyone >familiar with it? And might there be any rationale to "cheese" >appearing in the term? > > The quote appears on May 31, 1913, p.10, col. 5, in 'Sporting >Tit-Bits by "Mac"': > >'Charley Cleaver's great Siberian cheese hound, King C., took much >delight in showing up all comers at the dog show in Dreamland rink >yesterday. Mr. Cleaver's daring cheese hound has it on all rivals. >Cleaver's pet canine can wag his tail in seven languages, and orders >"ine stein" with all the eclat of a Teuton fully illuminated at a >Schutzenfest. Mr. Cleaver's canine was recently imported from >Vladivostok. He is frequently on exhibition at Mr. Cleaver's place >of call on Steiner and Sutter streets. Cleaver swears by the cheese >hound and is willing to take an affidavit that even his hair is >imported.' > >--Gerald Cohen -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 6 12:15:34 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:15:34 -0400 Subject: "cheese hound" -- query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >In my speech (laid down in Louisville KY in the 1940's) , a "cheese >hound" refers both literally to the fact that the dog likes cheese >and will hunt all over a room to find even a tidbit of it and to the >fact that this in-the-house training makes the dog useless ("cheesy") >for field sports. This is interesting, and something which was previously unknown to this city boy. Without knowing any broad context, I think the dog's designation as "Siberian cheese hound" (as if it were a standard breed, by analogy with "Siberian husky", "Irish wolfhound", "Italian greyhound", etc.) is most compatible with a purely whimsical usage, with or without an intentional reminiscence of "cheese hound" in the above sense or of "keeshond" (etymologically unrelated AFAIK). "Cheese-eater" = "rat"/"stoolpigeon" or so is familiar and not necessarily ethnically restricted AFAIK. There is also "cheese-eating" as a metaphor for "constipated". Offhand, I don't see any reason to think these are apposite here. -- Doug Wilson From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Jul 6 14:41:01 2001 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 07:41:01 -0700 Subject: "cheese hound" -- query In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010706075635.00a5b910@nb.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > reminiscence of "cheese hound" in the above sense or of "keeshond" > (etymologically unrelated AFAIK). My Dutch dictionary lists "keeshond" as "keeshond" [no etymology given], Dutch Barge Dog, Pomeranian[!], P. dog[?!]. Also, the Dutch word for cheese is "kaas" not "kees". I agree with dInIs and his explanation of "cheese-hound". It almost certainly has nothing to do with "keeshond" since the breed was only recognized by the AKC in 1930. That wouldn't prevent the writer from being familiar with the breed, but IMHO makes it highly unlikely. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 6 18:04:14 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:04:14 EDT Subject: Greenland bubble gum (whale meat) Message-ID: Greetings from Sisimiut. Sorry for the delay--the hotel I was staying at was on the internet all day, and there's no internet from my ship...The woman at the hotel knew only three Greenlandic words for "ice." GREENLAND BUBBLE GUM--whale meat. This was announced at the seafood buffet at the hotel by the chef. SOFT ICE--soft ice cream. The "cream" is not listed. KNORR BURRITOS, KNORR TACO'S--Knorr gets possessive about tacos. ON GREENLAND'S CLOSED SHORE: THE FAIRYLAND OF THE ARCTIC by Isobel Wylie Hutchison William Blackwood & Sons, Edinburgh 1930 Pg. 31: Kamiker are sealskin top-boots, reaching to the knee for (Pg. 32--ed.) men, and well over it for the picturesque national costume of the women. (OED for kamiker or kamik?--ed.) Pg. 36: The "umiak," or skin-boat, was formerly the Greenlander's only means of transporting his family from place to place... Pg. 103: ...icebergs "calving"... Pg. 146: Matak is the skin of the small white whale (kilaluak). This outer skin has a pure milky appearance with a sort of fat jelly below, and tastes excellently when fried with bread crumbs or eaten with curry sauce. Pg. 169: Matak (the skin of the white whale done up into a cold jellied shape tasting like sweetbread). (A quick online OED check shows no entry for "matak" or mattak." That's why they pay me the big bucks--ed.) From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Fri Jul 6 17:52:41 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 13:52:41 -0400 Subject: begging the question Message-ID: Responding to George Thompson, Peter A. McGraw writes: >>>>> Using "beg the question" synonymously with "raise the question" seems pretty widespread in broadcast journalism. It certainly isn't confined to sportscasters: I hear it all the time on ABC News and I think also NPR. I think this usage was discussed awhile back on this list. <<<<< Not just in journalism. I noticed it this week in Steven K.Z. Brust's newest fantasy novel, _Issola_ (Tor Books, July 2001. ISBN: 0-312-85927-9). ObDis: I have no commercial connection with Steven Brust or Tor Books. I am just a serious fan of his writing: http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ Mark A. Mandel : Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Senior Linguist 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com (speaking for myself) From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Fri Jul 6 18:04:46 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:04:46 -0400 Subject: "candle arbor" Message-ID: The curmudgeon awakens to cudgel the Boston _Globe_. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 08:00:35 -0400 From: Mark A Mandel To: editor at globe.com Subject: Life at Home Reading today's lead "Life at Home" article ("With Their Own Hands", 7/5/2001, p. H1, by Rachel Travers) I thought, "An arbor covered with candles, out in the garden? Maybe indoors? That's incredible! That's... strange." And then I looked again at the last line of the fifth paragraph, pronounced "candle arbor", and said "That's *supposed* to be 'candelabra'." Get your language right, please. It's our language, too. -- Mark A. Mandel Framingham From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 6 06:56:05 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:56:05 +0800 Subject: "candle arbor" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:04 PM -0400 7/6/01, Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote: >The curmudgeon awakens to cudgel the Boston _Globe_. > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 08:00:35 -0400 >From: Mark A Mandel >To: editor at globe.com >Subject: Life at Home > >Reading today's lead "Life at Home" article ("With Their Own Hands", >7/5/2001, p. H1, by Rachel Travers) I thought, "An arbor covered with >candles, out in the garden? Maybe indoors? That's incredible! That's... >strange." And then I looked again at the last line of the fifth paragraph, >pronounced "candle arbor", and said "That's *supposed* to be >'candelabra'." > >Get your language right, please. It's our language, too. > >-- Mark A. Mandel > Framingham Wonderful, Mark Let us (or me, anyway) know if they print your comment. I do think you're being a bit harsh on Ms. Travers, though--a candle arbor would provide just the right mood for spending quality time with one's power-mower... ============ "Meanwhile, Richard Parker Bowles, brother of Camilla's ex-husband, Andrew, said that from the beginning Camilla approved of Charles' marrying Diana while she remained his power mower." Richmond Times-Dispatch, quoted in New Yorker, 1/22/95, p. 83 P.S. If anyone else was curious, here's the complete context of the citation Mark caught, courtesy of Nexis (this was, Mark will be relieved to hear, the ONLY hit on "candle arbor" listed on Nexis, ============== The Boston Globe July 5, 2001, Thursday ,THIRD EDITION SECTION: LIFE AT HOME; Pg. H1 HEADLINE: IN STEPS, A HOME, FAMILY ARE FORGED BYLINE: By Rachel Travers, Globe Correspondent LINCOLN - Scott Burk has known since he was 7 that this plot of family land was where he wanted to live when he grew up. Now 44, he and his wife, Lucinda, have quite literally made the place their home. They felled the trees for lumber, cleared land for the foundation, collected rocks for the fireplace, and built the house together. Each step of the way, as they figured out what needed to be done to create their 2000-square-foot house and home, their mutual response was always, "I can do that." Money was no object because they didn't have much. Being resourceful was always the challenge. This is the Burk approach to life: trade, barter, conserve. It has worked remarkably well. "We knew what we had to do," said Scott. "It was more than the normal building project; we did it all." With a blacksmithing forge in the old foundation of the barn area, before there was a structure or a roof, Scott even created the hardware he would need. Ultimately, all the drawer pulls, hooks, hinges, shelf brackets, andirons, curtain rods, lantern holders, thumb-latches, ladles, kitchen utensils, even a candle arbor were made by hand. ============== Handmade, no less, and why not? Nothing tackier than a store-bought mass-produced candle arbor, I always say. larry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From transedit.h at TELIA.COM Fri Jul 6 20:28:40 2001 From: transedit.h at TELIA.COM (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 22:28:40 +0200 Subject: Kalaallit (Greenland) Message-ID: Bapopik wrote: - - - MORE FROM MY DANISH GUIDE: BACKBOARD INDIAN--a homosexual. I asked him for any terms for gays, and he came up with this, but another Dane had never heard of it. The guide said that "Backboard" means "starboard," as on a ship. - - - Sorry, but Barry's Danish guide was wrong. "Backboard" is "port" on a ship. German has "Backbord", Swedish has shortened this to "babord", and Danish has "bagbord". I think that even English had the word once upon a time: it comes from the epoch when ships had a steering oar instead of a rudder. This oar was usually on the "steerboard" ("Steuerbord", "styrbord") side, and the steersman turned his back to the port side. Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 6 12:06:03 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:06:03 +0800 Subject: Kalaallit (Greenland) In-Reply-To: <007401c1065a$4179a900$eac9143e@oemcomputer> Message-ID: >Bapopik wrote: >- - - >MORE FROM MY DANISH GUIDE: >BACKBOARD INDIAN--a homosexual. I asked him for any terms for gays, >and he came up with this, but another Dane had never heard of it. >The guide said that "Backboard" means "starboard," as on a ship. >- - - >Sorry, but Barry's Danish guide was wrong. "Backboard" is "port" on >a ship. German has "Backbord", Swedish has shortened this to >"babord", and Danish has "bagbord". I think that even English had >the word once upon a time: it comes from the epoch when ships had a >steering oar instead of a rudder. This oar was usually on the >"steerboard" ("Steuerbord", "styrbord") side, and the steersman >turned his back to the port side. > >Jan Ivarsson >jan.ivarsson at transedit.st OK, that makes more sense. I was wondering to a colleague why the term for 'gay' would allude to the right as opposed to the left side, given the usual line-up of these metaphors. ('Portsider' is a standard term, at least in baseball contexts, for a left-hander, and sure enough, "left-handed" is listed in RHHDAS as 'homosexual' (citations since 1929), as well as of course 'illicit', 'clumsy', 'sinister', 'inauspicious', 'strange', etc., many of these overlapping with non-slang terms in the OED. So thanks to Jan, the first puzzle is solved. Where the "Indian" of "backboard/portside Indian" comes from is a whole nother puzzle. larry From hstahlke at GW.BSU.EDU Sat Jul 7 00:21:32 2001 From: hstahlke at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 19:21:32 -0500 Subject: Poster Boy (was "begging the question") Message-ID: This evening on The O'Reilly Factor, during a discussion of Greenspan's role in slowing the economy, Brenda Buttner responded to O'Reilly's blaming Greenspan by saying, "Everybody's looking for a poster boy." In the context, she must have meant something closer to "scapegoat." This near reversal of meaning is very much like that of "begging the question". Anybody else heard this usage? Herb <<< Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM 7/ 6 1:14p >>> Responding to George Thompson, Peter A. McGraw writes: >>>>> Using "beg the question" synonymously with "raise the question" seems pretty widespread in broadcast journalism. It certainly isn't confined to sportscasters: I hear it all the time on ABC News and I think also NPR. I think this usage was discussed awhile back on this list. <<<<< Not just in journalism. I noticed it this week in Steven K.Z. Brust's newest fantasy novel, _Issola_ (Tor Books, July 2001. ISBN: 0-312-85927-9). ObDis: I have no commercial connection with Steven Brust or Tor Books. I am just a serious fan of his writing: http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ Mark A. Mandel : Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Senior Linguist 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com (speaking for myself) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Jul 7 02:06:58 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 21:06:58 -0500 Subject: "cheese hound" --thanx Message-ID: Thanx for the responses on "cheese hound." They let me know that if I wrote "meaning unknown" I would not be zapped by something obvious. I've now done something I should have done at the beginning, viz. I took at look at _RHHDAS_. Under "cheese" (meaning 1c.) I find "a splendid thing--usually constr. with real." The first example is from 1901. This meaning fits the "cheese hound" quote nicely. The dog in the quote is truly splendid (e.g., it wags its tail in seven languages). I've seen several articles on dog shows in the _San Francisco Bulletin_, and although I did not read them with the same care as I did the baseball columns, I never noticed mention of "cheese hounds." "Cheese" (= splendid) was clearly slang--wholly appropriate for "Sporting Tit-Bits by 'Mac,'" which was a lively, humorous column--filled with puns, slang, etc. And as part of his humor, Mac presented "cheese hound" (splendid dog) in such a way that it seemed to be a breed of dog ("great Siberian cheese hound"). That seems to be what's going on with the quote. ---Gerald Cohen > The quote appears on May 31, 1913, p.10, col. 5, in 'Sporting >Tit-Bits by "Mac"': > >'Charley Cleaver's great Siberian cheese hound, King C., took much >delight in showing up all comers at the dog show in Dreamland rink >yesterday. Mr. Cleaver's daring cheese hound has it on all rivals. >Cleaver's pet canine can wag his tail in seven languages, and orders >"ine stein" with all the eclat of a Teuton fully illuminated at a >Schutzenfest. Mr. Cleaver's canine was recently imported from >Vladivostok. He is frequently on exhibition at Mr. Cleaver's place >of call on Steiner and Sutter streets. Cleaver swears by the cheese >hound and is willing to take an affidavit that even his hair is >imported.' ---Gerald Cohen From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sat Jul 7 09:34:12 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 10:34:12 +0100 Subject: "cheese hound" --thanx Message-ID: A small addendum to 'cheese' (which I should have thought about before, and overlooked in my eagerness to offer 'keeshond'): this form of cheese, usu. found as 'the cheese', has nothing to do with the comestible; its roots lie in Persian and Urdu _chiz_, thing. Yule and Burnell note in _Hobson-Jobson_ (1886) 'The expression used to be common among Anglo-Indians, e.g. "My new Arab [horse] is the real _chiz_", i.e. the real thing.' Note also Charles Kingsley's punning nonce-word _casein_, the real thing, f. SE casein, the basic ingredient of cheese. Finally some early cits: 1. the best (of a given type or style), the superlative a.1880 'Walking in the Zoo' (in Henderson _Victorian Street Ballads_ 1937) 75: The Stilton, sir, the cheese, the O.K. thing to do, / On Sunday afternoons, is to toddle to the Zoo. NB. _Stilton_ was synonymous in late 19C, meaning both the best of a type, and an important or influential person; _Cheshire_ (another UK cheese variety) also meant 'the best' c. 1900; note also the late 19C _that's the Limburger_, once again denoting 'the best'. All cases, of course pun on real names of cheeses. [Joyce has 'the cheese' it in 'Two Gallants' (in Dubliners 1914)] 2. just what is wanted 1843 Haliburton _The Clockmaker_ Whatever is the go in Europe will soon be the cheese here Jonathon Green From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Jul 7 17:54:05 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 13:54:05 EDT Subject: Kalaallit (Greenland) Message-ID: In a message dated 07/06/2001 4:24:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, transedit.h at TELIA.COM writes: > "Backboard" is "port" on a ship. German has "Backbord", Swedish has shortened > this to "babord", and Danish has "bagbord". I think that even English had the > word once upon a time: it comes from the epoch when ships had a steering oar > instead of a rudder. This oar was usually on the "steerboard" ("Steuerbord", " > styrbord") side, and the steersman turned his back to the port side. The English word was "larboard". The origin of "lar-" is uncertain. One theory is that the "larboard" is the "board" (side of the ship) from which the ship was "laded". In Old English the term was "baecbord" (the "ae" was the single letter, not a followed by e). "this did not survived into [Middle English], though its etymololgical equivalent still remains in all the mod continental Teut. tongues, and was adopted into rom. (F. babord) [circumflex over the "a"]" The etymology of "port" meaning the left side of a ship (as seen when facing the bow) is also obscure. One story is that the red light on the port side was the color of port wine. The OED2 does not mention this story and speculates that the ship was always docked when in port on the port side, or loaded from the port side, because the steering oar on the starboard would have gotten in the way had the ship been docked on the starboard side. [All the above, except the port wine story, from the OED2] Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Jul 7 17:59:45 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 13:59:45 EDT Subject: "cheese hound" --thanx Message-ID: In a message dated 07/06/2001 10:10:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gcohen at UMR.EDU writes: > I took at look at _RHHDAS_. Under "cheese" (meaning 1c.) I find "a > splendid thing--usually constr. with real." The first example is > from 1901. as in "the big cheese"? I keep thinking of the children's song "The Farmer in the Dell" "...the rat took the cheese... ...the cheese stands alone..." I was wondering about "Sporting Tit-Bits by 'Mac'". This looked obscene to me, but the OED2 has "tit-bit" from 1694, "tid-bit" from 1701, and "tyd bit" from ca. 1640 - Jim Landau From bapopik at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jul 7 22:54:06 2001 From: bapopik at HOTMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 22:54:06 -0000 Subject: GAT in NY Times; Greenland words Message-ID: Greetings from Copenhagen and a really lousy computer. I leave for Iceland in a few hours. My guide wasn't too clear on port or starboard. Sorry for any error in that message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BASEBALL IN 1823 NYC George A. Thompson's find about baseball was in Saturday's NY Times. Must reading! Any other places as well? Village Voice? Baseball America? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- GREENLAND WORDS A native guide had all day and gave me these: ICE CUBES--"Penguin candy" or seal. GOSSIP--"Kamik mail." (Kamik=boots--ed.) BUTTERFLY (ON MEN'S NATIONAL ANORAK)--"Charm pop." "Eskimo" actually means something close to "meateater," which is why Greenlanders prefer "Inuit" (which by the way means "human being"). "Igloo" actually means "house" in general--not necessarly "house of ice." _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From bapopik at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jul 7 23:57:58 2001 From: bapopik at HOTMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 23:57:58 -0000 Subject: Medicon Valley; Voyage to Greenland Message-ID: MEDICON VALLEY The Oresund is trying to attract biotech. Is Medicon Valley in the OED? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- VOYAGE TO GREENLAND by Frederica de Laguna W. W. Norton & Co., NY 1977 Based on her letters from 1929. She was a former president of the American Anthrop. Assoc. Pg. 50: The men were dressed in dark blue jackets of cotton cloth, _anoraks_, with close-fitting hoods, which most of them wore thrown back... Pg. 50: All wore _kamiks_, or waterproof sealskin boots. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SUMMER IN GREENLAND by A. C. Seward Cambridge University Press 1922 Pg. 21: ...raw porpoise hide (matak) is by no means to be despised--it is sid to combine a delicate taste of nuts and oysters: a slight acquaintance with it hardly justifies this opinion. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 8 08:02:17 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 04:02:17 EDT Subject: Matak=Muktuk Message-ID: MATAK=MUKTUK A check of Google showed that "matak" or "mattak" is the same as "muktuk," which the OED has from 1835. However, since it's not called "muktuk" anywhere in Greenland's English language materials, both "matak" and "mattak" should be added. -------------------------------------------------------- BAD/TOILET--from Greenland. We wanted the good toilets. HERFOLGE TURISTFART--on a bus in Copenhagen. Tourists should try to control themselves. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Jul 8 16:32:32 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 12:32:32 -0400 Subject: GAT in NY Times; Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/08/sports/08PAST.html "Mr. Thompson said he had looked through thousands of early 19th century newspapers on microfilm without finding any other reference to baseball. (As for why he spends hours each week poring over such papers, he said, 'It's a cheap hobby, and it keeps me from falling into the company of frolicsome women.'" -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ 78 South Third Street Apt. No. 1 Brooklyn, NY 11211 718 384 8271 Mobile 646 286 2260 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jul 8 20:36:19 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 16:36:19 -0400 Subject: Quote Unquote In-Reply-To: <46.138dc5bd.280c9c08@aol.com> Message-ID: In today's "On Language" column William Safire, following OED, gives E. E. Cummings in 1935 as the first use for "quote...unquote." There is an earlier usage by the Marx Brothers, however: 1933 _Flywheel, Shyster, and Flywheel_ (radio transcript) 20 Mar. in _The Essential Groucho_ (Stefan Kanfer ed. 2000) 64 In re yours of the fifth inst. yours to hand and in reply, I wish to state that the judiciary expenditures of this year, i.e., have not exceeded the fiscal year--brackets--this procedure is problematical. Quotes, unquotes, and quotes. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 9 00:51:58 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 20:51:58 EDT Subject: Icelandic & Danish terms Message-ID: Greetings from Reykjavik. This is a tiny, modern town that really could be anywhere. The local cuisine is hot dogs, pizza, doner kebabs, and fajitas...I was told that Bobby Fischer has left the building. -------------------------------------------------------- DESTINATION DENMARK From the "Destination Denmark" article in the AIRPORT MAGAZINE (Copenhagen), June/July 2001, pg. 15, col. 1: _*Danish Specialties Mentioned in the Text_ _"Brunsviger"_--Sticky cake from Funen made with lots of soft brown sugar. _Allotment Garden_--Tiny piece of land with a vividly coloured house outside the town. Based on the labour movement´s idea of fresh air for everybody. (...)(Col. 3--ed.) _City Bike_--Free bicycle based on the principle of a shopping trolley: Pay a deposit of 20 DKK on the bike and use it to get quickly around. (...) _"Milk Box Moped"_--Means of transportation with a plastic box from one of Denmark´s dairies attached to the carrier. The box is used for groceries, tools, beers, and one´s dog. _Pepper Pot_--Very, very funny birthday gift for wretched spinsters and bachelors at the age of 30. Pg. 17, Col. 2 ("Reykjavik, Cool as Ice"): . One of the gastronomic delicacies of the island is pickled ram´s testicles--with the look and taste of cod´s-roe. -------------------------------------------------------- ICELANDIC CUISINE From ATLANTICA magazine (Icelandair), July-August 2001. Pg. 76 headline: _Icelandic Cuisine:_ The way it really is Pg. 77, col. 1: ..._bjuga_ (Icelandice sausage)... Bread was baked at home and simple cakes, pancakes, _kleinur_ (Icelandic donuts), _flatkokur_ (round, flat bread cooked on top of the stove), _astarpungar_ ("loveballs"), _hjonabandssaela_ ("marriage happiness"), waffles and Christmas cookies were also a favourite. Pg. 77, Col. 2: ..._plokkfiskur_ (fish stew)... ..._skyr_ for dessert. Pg. 78, Col. 1: For a snack at any time of day, stop by at a shop or hot dog stand and try a good old Icelandic hot dog. The toppings to choose from include ketchup, mustard, remoulade, dried fried onions and raw onions. If you really want to be Icelandic, however, just ask for, "one hot dog with everything". It´s certainly a treat that you´ll remember. Pg. 78, Col. 2: ..._hangikjot_ (smoked lamb)... ..._snudur_ (cinnamon swirl)... ...Kokoskulur_ (coconut chocolatey balls)... Also try one or two of the large range of bread varieties. Special Icelandic types include _rugbraud_ (a dark malt bread) and _normalbraud_ (white bread). Try bread with Icelandic cheese, _mysingur_ (a dairy spread), _sild_ (herring), _hangikjot_, smoked salmon, or gravlax. Pg. 94, Col. 2: _Hot Dog Heaven_ (...) The hot dog is as much a part of this nation´s culinary culture as liver sausage--more so actually. It´s the perfect snack with some ketchup, fried onions and mustard. At the stand at Laugardalur, you can choose from a variety of toppings including pan-fried vegetables and pickles. You can even throw away the good old bun in favour of toasted wholemeal bread, making for a more haute cuisine hot dog than most places serve. (Ketchup on a hot dog? I´M SPENDING ALMOST TWO WEEKS AMONG ABSOLUTE SAVAGES!--ed.) From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Mon Jul 9 03:47:01 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 20:47:01 -0700 Subject: Icelandic & Danish terms Message-ID: To all: (Ketchup on a hot dog? I´M SPENDING ALMOST TWO WEEKS AMONG ABSOLUTE SAVAGES!--ed.) Ketchup is the *usual* topping for hotdogs in the Seattle area(usually mixed with mustard). Anne Gilbert From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 9 05:08:34 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 13:08:34 +0800 Subject: A line for the ages... Message-ID: This has really started to make the rounds. A day after being featured in that front page story in the Sunday Times, here it is capping off the "This Week in Quotes" segment of the Baseball Prospectus web site (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/20010709wiq.html), following a collection of quotes from ballplayers and executives: ==================== "A lot of people say, 'Aw, chemistry is nothing.' But it's 100 percent of winning. And this team has the most unbelievable chemistry." --Matt Stairs, Cubs infielder "I didn't expect to pitch tonight. But when you do go, you expect to pitch well. But we all have human arms and sometimes you have to say, `I'm not available.'" --Derek Lowe, Red Sox pitcher, on his workload and being used in non-save situations "In case of emergency, break glass and whip him out." --Brian Cashman, Yankees general manager, on infielder Luis Sojo's role "I don't even think I've done it on PlayStation. That's a first for me, all the way around, all the way up." --Geoff Blum, Expos outfielder, on hitting a home run from both sides of the plate in a game "It's a cheap hobby, and it keeps me from falling into the company of frolicsome women." --George A. Thompson Jr., NYU librarian, on why he spends hours a week looking at microfilm of 19th century newspapers for ancient references to predecessors of baseball -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Mon Jul 9 18:04:59 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:04:59 +0100 Subject: A line for the ages... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Monday, July 9, 2001 1:08 pm +0800 Laurence Horn wrote: > "It's a cheap hobby, and it keeps me from falling into the company of > frolicsome women." > --George A. Thompson Jr., NYU librarian, on why he spends hours a > week looking at microfilm of 19th century newspapers for ancient > references to predecessors of baseball That seems to imply that he's not in the company of frolicsome women here on ADS-L... Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 9 18:15:47 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 14:15:47 -0400 Subject: A line for the ages... In-Reply-To: <20922149.3203694299@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: Lynne Murphy wrote: >--On Monday, July 9, 2001 1:08 pm +0800 Laurence Horn > wrote: > >> "It's a cheap hobby, and it keeps me from falling into the company of >> frolicsome women." >> --George A. Thompson Jr., NYU librarian, on why he spends hours a >> week looking at microfilm of 19th century newspapers for ancient >> references to predecessors of baseball > >That seems to imply that he's not in the company of frolicsome women here >on ADS-L... Hmmm...Indeed. We'll have to do something about that. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From stevek at SHORE.NET Mon Jul 9 22:17:19 2001 From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 18:17:19 -0400 Subject: GAT in NY Times; Greenland words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Jul 2001, Barry Popik wrote: > "Eskimo" actually means something close to "meateater," which is why > Greenlanders prefer "Inuit" (which by the way means "human being"). This etymology (traced to Abenaki) is in dispute; to my knowledge, no definitive answer has yet been determined by linguists who specialize in this area. ________________________________________________ Please note my *new* email address: stevekl at panix.com -- you can start using it now. (Note the letter l -- it's stevekl). I'll be unsubbing from shore.net toward the end of the summer. From stevek at SHORE.NET Mon Jul 9 22:20:32 2001 From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 18:20:32 -0400 Subject: ketchup In-Reply-To: <014801c10829$d153dca0$bafafd3f@oemcomputer> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jul 2001, ANNE V. GILBERT wrote: > Ketchup is the *usual* topping for hotdogs in the Seattle area(usually mixed > with mustard). Requesting ketchup on hot dogs at certain hot dog places in Chicago will be met with a flat out no. Some places won't desecrate a hot dog with ketchup, and hand the ketchup to the patron separately, with a deep, burning glare. Asking for a hot dog with everything gets you everything but ketchup. Since I hate ketchup on hot dogs myself, I would say "Everything except ketchup" and the response would always be "They don't come with ketchup." ________________________________________________ Please note my *new* email address: stevekl at panix.com -- you can start using it now. (Note the letter l -- it's stevekl). I'll be unsubbing from shore.net toward the end of the summer. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 9 23:51:46 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:51:46 EDT Subject: Tea & Pee; Icelandic Air; Mudpots & Mudsprings; Skali Message-ID: Greetings from Vik, Iceland. "Viking" supposedly comes from a town called Vik in Norway. -------------------------------------------------------- TEA & PEE This tour guide referred to a rest stop as a "tea & pee." The other tour guides from this same company don´t use this. I don´t have a CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG handy to look this up. -------------------------------------------------------- ICELANDIC AIR LINES (IAL) IAL=Iceland Always Late (These airline jokes never end--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- MUDPOTS & MUDSPRINGS I visited Geysir today. Our word "geyser" comes from this. It´s fun and it goes off every five minutes. OED has "mudvolcano" and "mofette" but not "mudpot" and "mudspring." From THE GREAT GEYSIR, text by Heigi Torfason, Reykjavik 1985: Pg. 5, Col. 2: ...a brownish, crumbly rock type known as _moberg_ (peat- or brown-rock) in Icelandic, but its proper name is "hyaloclastite." Pg. 7, Col. 1: _Mudpots or mudsprings_ occur in the southern part of the Geysir area, and are very common in other high-temperature geothermal areas in Iceland. The mudpots form where water is in short supply and all the available water becomes mixed with clay and other undissolved material. The colour of the mud is often greyish or white and sometimes (Col. 2--ed.) stained reddish or pink by iron compounds. Around some mudpots the ejected material builds up cones known as "mudvolcanoes." The temperature in the mudpots is commonly lower than of fumaroles, or around 80-90 (degrees--ed) C. Mudpots and fumaroles are confined to high-temperature areas. -------------------------------------------------------- SKALI Not in OED. From VISIT SOUTH ICELAND 2001, pg. 22, col. 2: _The Saga Hall_ In autumn 1999 a new replica of a medieval hall, or "skali", will open at the Saga Centre, to re-create the old saga atmosphere. -------------------------------------------------------- REYJAVIK THIS MONTH, June/July 2001 Pg. 46, Col. 1: And if you are looking for the most "Icelandic" of all fast foods, try the _"pylsa meo ollu"--a hot dog with everything--_ at any one of the numerous kiosks or stands around the city. Pg. 48, Col. 1: To start your day, "kleina", a sort of sweet bread and a cup of coffee could neither be a tastier nor more economical meal. Pg. 52: As the ancient Icelandic proverb says, "ale is a different man." From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 9 13:11:55 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 21:11:55 +0800 Subject: ketchup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:20 PM -0400 7/9/01, Steve K. wrote: >On Sun, 8 Jul 2001, ANNE V. GILBERT wrote: > >> Ketchup is the *usual* topping for hotdogs in the Seattle area(usually mixed >> with mustard). > >Requesting ketchup on hot dogs at certain hot dog places in Chicago will >be met with a flat out no. Some places won't desecrate a hot dog with >ketchup, and hand the ketchup to the patron separately, with a deep, >burning glare. > >Asking for a hot dog with everything gets you everything but ketchup. >Since I hate ketchup on hot dogs myself, I would say "Everything >except ketchup" and the response would always be "They don't come >with ketchup." --"Everything but ketchup, please." --"Sorry, we don't serve ketchup; you'll have to have it without mustard." It may be worth noting on the same topic (since we haven't yet heard from the anti-ketchup defamation league) that at least one hamburger restaurant--indeed, the reputed home of the hamburger, Louis' Lunch on Crown St. in New Haven--refuses to serve ketchup with its hamburgers. Onion or tomato, si; ketchup, no. larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Jul 10 01:27:53 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 21:27:53 -0400 Subject: ketchup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >At 6:20 PM -0400 7/9/01, Steve K. wrote: >--"Everything but ketchup, please." >--"Sorry, we don't serve ketchup; you'll have to have it without mustard." > >It may be worth noting on the same topic (since we haven't yet heard >from the anti-ketchup defamation league) that at least one hamburger >restaurant--indeed, the reputed home of the hamburger, Louis' Lunch >on Crown St. in New Haven--refuses to serve ketchup with its >hamburgers. Onion or tomato, si; ketchup, no. You forgot the cheese glop. -- Alice Faber tel. (203) 865-6163 Haskins Laboratories fax (203) 865-8963 270 Crown St faber at haskins.yale.edu New Haven, CT 06511 afaber at wesleyan.edu From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Jul 10 01:40:14 2001 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 18:40:14 -0700 Subject: Icelandic & Danish terms In-Reply-To: <014801c10829$d153dca0$bafafd3f@oemcomputer> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jul 2001, ANNE V. GILBERT wrote: > Ketchup is the *usual* topping for hotdogs in the Seattle area(usually mixed > with mustard). > Anne Gilbert Perhaps not in all areas of the Seattle area. Ketchup/Catsup on hotdogs strikes me as a little bizarre. Ketchup and mustard on a hamburger, maybe, but on a hotdog? New to me. BTW From Coast to Coast, George Thompson Jr., makes the front page of the local (Everett, Wash.) paper. Allen maberry at u.washington.edu From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Tue Jul 10 02:11:40 2001 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 22:11:40 -0400 Subject: Icelandic & Danish terms Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jul 2001 18:40:14 -0700 "A. Maberry" > Perhaps not in all areas of the Seattle area. Ketchup/Catsup on > hotdogs > strikes me as a little bizarre. Ketchup and mustard on a hamburger, > maybe, > but on a hotdog? New to me. In NE Pennsylvania ketchup on hot dogs is standard, preferably with pickle relish. Mustard is for flatlanders. Ketchup on scrambled eggs is also common. (I apologize if this rvelation reaches you when you are eating.) As Garrrison Keillor will tell you, ketchup is associated with traditional values and feeling good about yourself. It is the redneck Prosac. And for Barry -- ketchup predates the common use of tomatoes as an edible. Goes back -- and I am talking off the top of my head here -- to a concoction of pickled oysters. I am sure someone can correct me. D From rkm at SLIP.NET Tue Jul 10 03:15:44 2001 From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:15:44 -0700 Subject: Southern Advice Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Tue Jul 10 08:51:30 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:51:30 +0100 Subject: Tea & Pee; Icelandic Air; Mudpots & Mudsprings; Skali Message-ID: -------------------------------------------------------- > TEA & PEE > > This tour guide referred to a rest stop as a "tea & pee." The other tour guides from this same company don´t use this. > I don´t have a CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG handy to look this up. > The phrase isn't there - nor indeed is it in my on-going and ever-expanding database. 'Tea' makes a variety of appearances, as obviously does 'pee' but never in partnership. The phrase, as far as I know, is not part of general UK slang/colloq., although it obviously suits this particular tour guide and does indeed have a certain pleasant assonance - not to mention relevance to the varieties of 'relief' on on offer. Jonathon Green From rmsamuel at OPTONLINE.NET Tue Jul 10 09:56:58 2001 From: rmsamuel at OPTONLINE.NET (Robert Samuel) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 05:56:58 -0400 Subject: Icelandic & Danish terms Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duane Campbell" To: Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 10:11 PM Subject: Re: Icelandic & Danish terms > On Mon, 9 Jul 2001 18:40:14 -0700 "A. Maberry" > > > Perhaps not in all areas of the Seattle area. Ketchup/Catsup on > > hotdogs > > strikes me as a little bizarre. Ketchup and mustard on a hamburger, > > maybe, > > but on a hotdog? New to me. > > In NE Pennsylvania ketchup on hot dogs is standard, preferably with > pickle relish. Mustard is for flatlanders. > > Ketchup on scrambled eggs is also common. (I apologize if this rvelation > reaches you when you are eating.) > > As Garrrison Keillor will tell you, ketchup is associated with > traditional values and feeling good about yourself. It is the redneck > Prosac. > > And for Barry -- ketchup predates the common use of tomatoes as an > edible. Goes back -- and I am talking off the top of my head here -- to a > concoction of pickled oysters. I am sure someone can correct me. > > D The ancient Romans used a fish-based sauce as a condiment in Ketchup like ways and amounts. I may have read that in "Food in History" by Reay Tannahill. /r From transedit.h at TELIA.COM Tue Jul 10 11:39:42 2001 From: transedit.h at TELIA.COM (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:39:42 +0200 Subject: Tea&Pee; Iceland.... Message-ID: Barry Popik wrote: > Greetings from Vik, Iceland. "Viking" supposedly comes from a town called Vik in Norway. - - - There are hundreds of towns, villages and simple place names "Vik" all over Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Finland. The Swedish National Encyclopedia says about the etymology of 'viking': "...uncertain; usually as being related to 'vik' [meaning 'bay'] and explained as derived from pirates' habit of hiding in bays, or to 'Viken', i.e. the district around inner Skagerrak. [...] Another interpretation of the meaning is 'trader', in analogy with OE 'wic' ['trading town'], from latin 'vicus' ['village']." Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Jul 10 12:51:46 2001 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 05:51:46 -0700 Subject: Tea & Pee; Icelandic Air; Mudpots & Mudsprings; Skali In-Reply-To: <001b01c1091d$8604af00$023264c0@green> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Jonathon Green wrote: > > The phrase, as far as I know, is not part of general UK slang/colloq., > although it obviously suits this particular tour guide and does indeed have > a certain pleasant assonance - not to mention relevance to the varieties of > 'relief' on on offer. I barely recall an ad campaign in the (early?) 1970s either promoting tea in general or a specific brand. Anyway the slogan was "Drink tea and see." (i.e. see how good it is). This naturally gave rise to "Drink tea and pee" but I don't recall having heard it since or in any other context. Allen maberry at u.washington.edu From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 10 13:38:12 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:38:12 EDT Subject: ketchup Message-ID: In a message dated 7/9/01 9:10:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > anti-ketchup defamation league I believe you mean the "anti ketchup-defamation league". The "anti-ketchup league" is a group of people (some of whom belong to the ADS-L list, but I shall respect their anonymities) who make a point of making sure that the defamations of a certain tomato residue ketch up to the product. It's like the difference between libelling a ketch and slandering a ketch. >--"Everything but ketchup, please." >--"Sorry, we don't serve ketchup; you'll have to have it without mustard." If you're interested, I have a pair of 1903 recipes for "catsup", both of which contain mustard as an ingredient. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In a message dated 7/9/01 10:33:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dcamp911 at JUNO.COM writes: > ketchup predates the common use of tomatoes as an > edible. Goes back -- and I am talking off the top of my head here -- to a > concoction of pickled oysters M-W 10th Collegiate gives a date of "ca. 1690" and the etymology ""Malay _kechap_ fish sauce" [a breve over the "e" in "kechap"]. Consumers' Union, of all people, once denounced the urban legend that ketchup is necessarily made from tomatoes and, if I remember correctly, supplied a recipe for green ketchup. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 10 13:43:19 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:43:19 EDT Subject: Tea & Pee Message-ID: In a message dated 7/10/01 4:55:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK writes: > The phrase ["tea and pee"] isn't there - nor indeed is it in my on-going and > ever-expanding database. Does your database include, referring to outdoor restrooms, "These are summer homes---some are for men and some are for women"? I have had tour guides pull this gag on me on three different [in?] continents. - Jim Landau From AAllan at AOL.COM Tue Jul 10 17:44:42 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:44:42 EDT Subject: ADS Newsletter, at last Message-ID: On Monday the 9th of July, the US Postal Service accepted the burden of about 650 envelopes containing the latest (May 2001) Newsletter of the American Dialect Society. By first class or air mail, it will go to all ADS members. This is the smallest issue in the 30-year history of the Newsletter - just four pages. Why so small? Well, that's all the space needed for the announcements of coming meetings, and new books, and the ever-intriguing inquiries from DARE, and a special sale on Kenyon's _American Pronunciation_ (reviewed in the Summer 2001 _American Speech_). Also the worst pun in the newsletter's history. No point in chopping down more trees than needed. But we'll have more pages in the September issue, with its membership list and the full program for the Annual Meeting. And by the way, there's a final Call for Papers for that meeting in the issue, page 3. You've got a month: August 13 is the deadline for proposals. If you can't wait, or happen to be logged on to the Internet, you can also read this issue as a PDF document. Just go to the ADS website www.americandialect.org and follow the instructions. (Thanks, Grant Barrett!) And if you're not an ADS member and would really like a hard copy of this issue and all future ones, you can join ADS by getting in touch with: Cindy Foltz cinfoltz at duke.edu Journals Fulfillment Duke University Press Box 90660 Durham, NC 27708-0660 phone 1-888-387-5765 or 919-687-3613; fax 1-919-688-2615 Be ready to pay $35 (for students, $20) for this year's membership, which includes _American Speech_ and _PADS_ as well as the newsletter. Oh, there's also a charge of $10 for members outside the U.S. Pretty reasonable, eh? Be forewarned that next year membership will go to $40. If you have any questions about the newsletter or ADS membership, let me know. Happy reading! - Allan Metcalf: AAllan at aol.com Executive Secretary From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 10 22:19:35 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:19:35 EDT Subject: Superjeep Message-ID: SUPERJEEP--These are everywhere. My driver hasn´t heard of SUVs! He says he has a "superjeep" at home, and it´s a Toyota Landcruiser--not the "Jeep, there´s only one" kind. He says that a "superjeep" has 38" wheels. These are also called "glaciar jeeps" by a company of that name in Iceland. MANTLE PLUME--OED? Used when we visited the glacier today. JOKULHLAUP--"glacial burst." OED, or strictly Icelandic? From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 10 23:04:31 2001 From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:04:31 -0500 Subject: Superjeep Message-ID: >MANTLE PLUME--OED? Used when we visited the glacier today. I don't know if OED has it, but it should, perhaps under plume. Even I have heard of this. The term, however, has nothing to do with glaciers and everything to do with plate tectonics etc. A cursory web search turns up some respectable-looking sites dealing with volcanism etc. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From okl-word at JUNO.COM Wed Jul 11 01:04:26 2001 From: okl-word at JUNO.COM (L oki) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:04:26 EDT Subject: Introduction & Tea&Pee Message-ID: Hello, I'm Owen Lorion, amateur philologist, erstwhile professional storyteller, professional cruciverbalist, retired bookkeeper, part-time poet, and full-time curmudgeon, born in Vancouver, Washington, 51 years ago, and currently residing in the abode of the adobe, Santa Fe, New Mexico. That out of the way, my own little research on the current topic has turned up multiple variations of the urban legend about the Native American whose doctor prescribed several gallons of Liptons for his kidney stones, and who was subsequently found dead in his teepee. However, since this phrase was transmitted orally by the tour guide in question, it presents the question of whether it was heard properly. Could it, indeed, have been intended as T&P? Again searching my references, with especial concentration on travel-related terms, since this was in the context of a guided tour, I found that T&P does have such a meaning: Texas & Pacific Railway! Although, now that I come to think of it, this does seem a mite unlikely for a term to be used on an island in the Atlantic, about the size of what a Texan might put in his hip pocket. But other possibilities present themselves. Perhaps the tour guide is a fan of "Baywatch," and was actually influenced by all that T&A to make an allusive reference to resting ones eyes thusly when refering to this rest stop as a T&P. But here, we're switching A&P in the middle of the Atlantic in reference to a TV show about beaches on the Pacific, which could get us right back to Texas again if we're not careful. Which is on the Gulf of Mexico. But that's just my opinion. ~Owen From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Wed Jul 11 03:29:59 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 20:29:59 -0700 Subject: Icelandic & Danish terms Message-ID: Allen: > Perhaps not in all areas of the Seattle area. Ketchup/Catsup on hotdogs > strikes me as a little bizarre. Ketchup and mustard on a hamburger, maybe, > but on a hotdog? New to me. > > BTW From Coast to Coast, George Thompson Jr., makes the front page of the > local (Everett, Wash.) paper. Maybe you're right. But there is a latte and hotdog stand just outside the place I work in, and believe me, I've seen people asking for hotdogs with "everything"(including ketchup)on them. I guess there's no accounting for tastes. Personally, about the only thing *I* like on hotdogs is a little relish and maybe onions or cheese, but not that glop that comes from a jar. Anne G From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Wed Jul 11 03:31:12 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 20:31:12 -0700 Subject: Icelandic & Danish terms Message-ID: To all: > > Ketchup on scrambled eggs is also common. (I apologize if this rvelation > reaches you when you are eating.) Never heard of ketchup on scrambled eggs. But then, I've never lived in Pennsylvania, either. Anne G From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jul 11 04:06:08 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:06:08 -0700 Subject: Icelandic & Danish terms In-Reply-To: <00b401c109b9$f0923d00$9decfd3f@oemcomputer> Message-ID: I agree with you that ketchup is common on hot dogs in Seattle. I first saw my sister put ketchup on her scrambled eggs about 20 years ago. Never have understood it, though. Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA Gambling, gamboling and more at the Riverside Inn in Tukwila! > -----Original Message----- > > Ketchup on scrambled eggs is also common. (I apologize > if this rvelation > > reaches you when you are eating.) > > Never heard of ketchup on scrambled eggs. But then, I've > never lived in > Pennsylvania, either. > Anne G From lgaspar at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Jul 11 06:45:00 2001 From: lgaspar at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Lawrence Gaspar) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 02:45:00 -0400 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Jul 2001 to 10 Jul 2001 (#2001-192) Message-ID: unsubscribe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Automatic digest processor" To: "Recipients of ADS-L digests" Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 12:04 AM Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Jul 2001 to 10 Jul 2001 (#2001-192) > There are 12 messages totalling 350 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. Tea & Pee; Icelandic Air; Mudpots & Mudsprings; Skali (2) > 2. Icelandic & Danish terms (3) > 3. Tea&Pee; Iceland.... > 4. ketchup > 5. Tea & Pee > 6. ADS Newsletter, at last > 7. Superjeep (2) > 8. Introduction & Tea&Pee > From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Jul 11 09:56:19 2001 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 05:56:19 -0400 Subject: Icelandic & Danish terms In-Reply-To: <00b401c109b9$f0923d00$9decfd3f@oemcomputer> Message-ID: Ketchup on scrambled eggs wasn't unheard of where I grew up (northeastern Massachusetts), either. Actually, a friend of mine has mentioned that a friend of hers in the Dominican Republic, of all places, had her scrambled eggs with ketchup. I'll bet it's a pretty widespread practice -- and an understandable one, too, considering the insipidness of plain eggs and the incompatibility of most other traditional American condiments (mustard, relish, mayo, thousand island dressing) with them. By the way, I have several friends who season their hot dogs with ketchup. They're quite respectable people, too! Joanne Despres From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Wed Jul 11 12:53:57 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:53:57 +0100 Subject: ketchup In-Reply-To: <3B4BEA83.30708.3E585C2@localhost> Message-ID: --On Wednesday, July 11, 2001 5:56 am -0400 "Joanne M. Despres" wrote: > Ketchup on scrambled eggs wasn't unheard of where I grew up > (northeastern Massachusetts), either. Actually, a friend of mine > has mentioned that a friend of hers in the Dominican Republic, of > all places, had her scrambled eggs with ketchup. I'll bet it's a pretty > widespread practice -- and an understandable one, too, considering > the insipidness of plain eggs and the incompatibility of most other > traditional American condiments (mustard, relish, mayo, thousand > island dressing) with them. Yes, lots of my (upstate NY) family has eggs w/ ketchup. I think it's gross, myself. But you also have to understand that I come from a family that puts strawberry jam on macaroni and cheese. (Which isn't so gross. You should try it.) I only put ketchup on hotdogs if there's no A1 sauce around... L. M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 11 13:14:35 2001 From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:14:35 -0500 Subject: Ketchup Message-ID: Richard Nixon was known for using ketchup on cottage cheese. One thing I question is how anyone dares eat a 'hot dog' any more, considering what we know they put into them. A good braut, or polish sausage is something else again, and ketchup would ruin them. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Wed Jul 11 13:34:53 2001 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:34:53 -0400 Subject: Superjeep Message-ID: Barry's post reminded me of the vehicles with supersize tires, and other ruggedized features, that commonly seen in the parking lots of various geological tourist attractions in Iceland. In some instances, those vehicles will outnumber vans and automobiles in the lot. Rugged vehicles for traveling in rough terrain. A search of the web didn't turn up any photos to match that which I'd seen during my visit to Iceland in June of last year. At least two spellings can be found on the web, both Superjeep and superjeep. The web photos seem to feature the oversize tires on the vehicles. The raised axles, reinforced bottom plates, variety of roll bars, and other features are not mentioned. While superjeep is often used to refer to a modified Jeep, other modified vehicles are often described with the same word. George Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University ================ Some photos, by following the links at: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/voices/assignment/story01/story01_02.html http://jeepin.com/campjeep1998/badasszj1.jpg The word isn't always used to describe a modified jeep: http://www.4x44u.com/Features/IcelandicSuperSafari/ A firejeep is shown at: http://jeepin.com/campjeep1998/firejeep.jpg From stevek at SHORE.NET Wed Jul 11 13:46:40 2001 From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:46:40 -0400 Subject: Icelandic & Danish terms In-Reply-To: <3B4BEA83.30708.3E585C2@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jul 2001, Joanne M. Despres wrote: > I'll bet it's a pretty > widespread practice -- and an understandable one, too, considering > the insipidness of plain eggs and the incompatibility of most other > traditional American condiments (mustard, relish, mayo, thousand > island dressing) with them. Finding ketchup itself a tad insipid, I usually put Tabasco sauce on my eggs! (It is *so* hard to get spicy food in New England.) ________________________________________________ Please note my *new* email address: stevekl at panix.com -- you can start using it now. (Note the letter l -- it's stevekl). I'll be unsubbing from shore.net toward the end of the summer. From stevek at SHORE.NET Wed Jul 11 13:47:44 2001 From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:47:44 -0400 Subject: ketchup In-Reply-To: <349313.3203848437@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jul 2001, Lynne Murphy wrote: > Yes, lots of my (upstate NY) family has eggs w/ ketchup. I think it's > gross, myself. But you also have to understand that I come from a family > that puts strawberry jam on macaroni and cheese. (Which isn't so gross. > You should try it.) Having cast aspersions on ketchup, I should note that I put mustard (preferably French's yellow mustard) on corn and also on pizza. ________________________________________________ Please note my *new* email address: stevekl at panix.com -- you can start using it now. (Note the letter l -- it's stevekl). I'll be unsubbing from shore.net toward the end of the summer. From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Jul 11 12:08:15 2001 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:08:15 -0400 Subject: ketchup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm a mustard woman myself, so your condiment preferences sound quite edible to me. My personal favorite is mustard-flavored pretzels accompanied by a Glenlivet on the rocks. But enough of this culinary decadence... Joanne From pds at VISI.COM Wed Jul 11 14:34:12 2001 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:34:12 -0500 Subject: hi-de hi-de Message-ID: A friend found the following use of "hi-de hi-de" as a transitive verb on a piano roll. She and I are wonder what it means. A search of my slang dictionaries, ADS-L Archives, AltaVista ("to hi-de"), and a direct inquiry to Gerald Cohen all came up blank. >Quotation: "Didn't you even try to hi-de hi-de me?" > >context: >Always thought that yours was such a heart of gold, >But after I was sold on all the tales you told, >Didn't you let your kisses turn from hot to cold? >Was that the human thing to do? > >How you let me fall and how you let me be, >And when I begged you for a little sympathy, >Didn't you even try to hi-de hi-de me? >Was that the human thing to do? > >Song: Was that the Human Thing to Do? >Author/composer: Joe Young and Sammy Fain > >Date: song written 1931 > (piano roll issued in December of 1931) Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 11 14:56:46 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:56:46 EDT Subject: hi-de hi-de Message-ID: In a message dated 7/11/01 10:33:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pds at VISI.COM writes: > A friend found the following use of "hi-de hi-de" as a transitive verb on a > piano roll. She and I are wonder what it means. A search of my slang > dictionaries, ADS-L Archives, AltaVista ("to hi-de"), and a direct inquiry > to Gerald Cohen all came up blank. > > >Quotation: "Didn't you even try to hi-de hi-de me?" > > > >context: > >Always thought that yours was such a heart of gold, > >But after I was sold on all the tales you told, > >Didn't you let your kisses turn from hot to cold? > >Was that the human thing to do? > > > >How you let me fall and how you let me be, > >And when I begged you for a little sympathy, > >Didn't you even try to hi-de hi-de me? > >Was that the human thing to do? It's mispelled. I tried "hi-dee" on AltaVista and got 1519 hits. "Hi-dee" and its numerous variants such as "hi-dee-ho" is a greeting. I suspect that it's a variant of "howdy" which M-W 10th Collegiate identifies as "alter. of _how do ye_" and dates as 1712. Hence the second stanza you quoted appears to mean something like And when I begged you for a little sympathy, Didn't you even try to [call me up and say hi to me]? Probably not relevant, but when I was in Basic Training at Fort Knox in 1969 there was an African-American drill sergeant whose favorite marching chant was: Hi-dee Hi-dee Hi-dee hey Hi-dee Hi-dee Hi-dee ho Up and down the hills we go Forty hours every day It's the Fort Knox boogie What a crazy sound - Jim Landau (who still lays square eggs) From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Wed Jul 11 15:09:48 2001 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:09:48 +0200 Subject: Ketchup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ketchup, that all-American sauce, is not quite as American as many Americans suppose. To begin with, the word ketchup is of Fujianese or Malay origin. Thousands of Indian, Malay, Filipino, and Chinese recipes call for ketchup. I once went to an excellent Indian restaurant that served ketchup with just about everything. In southern India, I forget where exactly, there's an entire ketchup-based cuisine. In Spain, as in India, omelets are often eaten with ketchup. If ketchup is American tomatoes are vegetables. (Didn't the Supremes rule that tomatoes _are_ vegetables?) Paul -- Paul Frank English translation from German, French, Chinese, Spanish, Italian, and Portuguese Business, law, and the social sciences mailto:paulfrank at post.harvard.edu or mailto:paulfrank at wanadoo.fr From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jul 11 15:24:41 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:24:41 -0400 Subject: hi-de hi-de In-Reply-To: <2b.18033243.287dc32e@aol.com> Message-ID: >"Hi-dee" and its numerous variants such as "hi-dee-ho" is a greeting. Right, and also a nonsense interjection. I'm reminded of "Minnie the Moocher" (Cab Calloway, ca. 1930, I think): the chorus has "hi-de-hi-de-hi-de-hi". >Hence the second stanza you quoted appears to mean something like > >And when I begged you for a little sympathy, >Didn't you even try to [call me up and say hi to me]? Only if the "didn't" is actually meant to be "did", I think. I picture the "hi-de hi-de" as being either (1) something frivolous like "la-di-da" or "har-de-har" ... thus, "Didn't you even try to [make fun of me]/[make light of my troubles]?" or (2) a nonsense replacement for something like "casually seduce"/"f*ck" ... thus, "Didn't you even try to [take advantage of me]?" Just speculation. -- Doug Wilson From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Jul 11 15:35:49 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:35:49 -0400 Subject: You Didn't Just... Message-ID: Any comments on this usage? On the subway yesterday, here in New York, a young black teenager was sitting and her Latino boyfriend was standing above her. As he made some emphatic point, he pointed a short umbrella precariously close to her face. She said, "You DIDN'T just poke that in my face." Not an interrogative tone to it, since they both knew he did, more of a false, indignant disbelief, with a challenge and a lot of attitude. Of course, the boyfriend answered the words (which could be taken as a question) with a "No" and not the tone (which had no question in it at all) and they launched off on a battle that kept the car entertained for about 80 blocks. -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ 78 South Third Street Apt. No. 1 Brooklyn, NY 11211 718 384 8271 Mobile 646 286 2260 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 11 04:42:28 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:42:28 +0800 Subject: Ketchup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 5:09 PM +0200 7/11/01, Paul Frank wrote: >Ketchup, that all-American sauce, is not quite as American as many Americans >suppose. To begin with, the word ketchup is of Fujianese or Malay origin. >Thousands of Indian, Malay, Filipino, and Chinese recipes call for ketchup. >I once went to an excellent Indian restaurant that served ketchup with just >about everything. In southern India, I forget where exactly, there's an >entire ketchup-based cuisine. In Spain, as in India, omelets are often eaten >with ketchup. Well, yes, but then we're not necessarily talking KETCHUP ketchup, the type with Garrison Keillor's "natural mellowing agents". I've had Asian condiments with this name that don't taste at all like Heinz's best (or worst). Indeed, by etymological considerations, the tomato-based version has no privileged status. Here's the OED entry with the first couple of cites. I'm surprised to see "catchup" but not "catsup" listed as an alternate form. =============== ketchup Also kitchup: see also catchup. [app. ad. Chinese (Amoy dial.) kôechiap or kê-tsiap brine of pickled fish or shell-fish (Douglas Chinese Dict. 46/1, 242/1). Malay kechap (in Dutch spelling ketjap), which has been claimed as the original source (Scott Malayan Wds. in English 64-67), may be from Chinese. The Japanese kitjap, alleged in some recent dicts., is an impossible form for that language. (? error for Javanese.) ] A sauce made from the juice of mushrooms, walnuts, tomatoes, etc., and used as a condiment with meat, fish, or the like. Often with qualification, as mushroom ketchup, etc. 1711 Lockyer Acc. Trade India 128 Soy comes in Tubbs from Jappan, and the best Ketchup from Tonquin; yet good of both sorts are made and sold very cheap in China. 1748 Mrs. Harrison House-kpr.'s Pocket-bk. i. (ed. 4) 2, I therefore advise you to lay in a Store of Spices,..neither ought you to be without..Kitchup, or Mushroom Juice. ============= Now some of that "Tonquin"-style ketchup (presumably from that 'brine of pickled fish') or the mushroom juice or walnut varieties might be quite interesting on scrambled eggs. I don't object to the IDEA of (tomato) ketchup on eggs, I just think of it as a poor substitute for the appropriate condiment, a nice picante type salsa. larry From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Jul 11 17:09:14 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:09:14 -0700 Subject: Ketchup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As a kid I noticed that the label on the bottle nearly always said "catsup," but but that no one pronounced it that way except my grandmother, who was generally partial to spelling pronunciations and hypercorrections. I don't remember seeing it on a label in a long time, though. And Allen, if ketchup on hot dogs is such a new idea to you, how come they have one of those big plastic-jars-with-that-squirt-thingamajig filled with mustard AND one filled with ketchup wherever they serve hot dogs in your erstwhile hometown (and to my knowledge, everywhere else I've lived)? (I guess you'll claim the ketchup jar is just for the hamburgers.) (Or that those d**n Californians brought it with them after you left.):) Peter --On Wednesday, July 11, 2001 12:42 PM +0800 Laurence Horn wrote: > I'm surprised to see "catchup" but > not "catsup" listed as an alternate form. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Jul 11 17:28:47 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:28:47 EDT Subject: Superjeep Message-ID: << vehicles with supersize tires, and other ruggedized features, that commonly seen in the parking lots of various geological tourist attractions in Iceland. In some instances, those vehicles will outnumber vans and automobiles in the lot. Rugged vehicles for traveling in rough terrain. A search of the web didn't turn up any photos to match that which I'd seen during my visit to Iceland in June of last year. >> There's an amazing new feature at Google - go to google.com, then go to Advanced Search, then go to Image Search. I put in "iceland jeep" and got some fine pictures (as well as some odd ones). One is at the website http://www.iceland-discovery.com/adventure/adventure_south.shtml the "unforgettable landmannlaugar." - Allan Metcalf From charles at FREUDE.COM Wed Jul 11 18:25:26 2001 From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:25:26 -0400 Subject: Braut In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Explain about "braut". In NE Ohio we eat bratwurst, often called "brats", but I have never heard of "brauts". >Richard Nixon was known for using ketchup on cottage cheese. > >One thing I question is how anyone dares eat a 'hot dog' any more, >considering what we know they put into them. > >A good braut, or polish sausage is something else again, and ketchup would >ruin them. >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Charles Wells, Emeritus Professor of Mathematics, Case Western Reserve University Affiliate Scholar, Oberlin College Send all mail to: 105 South Cedar St., Oberlin, Ohio 44074, USA. email: charles at freude.com. home phone: 440 774 1926. professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html genealogical website: http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/ NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Wed Jul 11 18:32:05 2001 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:32:05 -0400 Subject: Superjeep Message-ID: Allan, Thanks for the Google images search site note. The "unforgettable landmannlaugar" is of the group of memorable vehicles that I saw in Iceland. As you noted, the Google images search site is amazing. George Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 11 06:47:10 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:47:10 +0800 Subject: Braut In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010711142440.0217d7a0@mail.oberlin.net> Message-ID: At 2:25 PM -0400 7/11/01, Charles Wells wrote: >Explain about "braut". In NE Ohio we eat bratwurst They're indigenous to Wisconsin, although generally as a bound morpheme: bratsnbeer. >, often called "brats", >but I have never heard of "brauts". A brat with kraut? LH > >>Richard Nixon was known for using ketchup on cottage cheese. >> >>One thing I question is how anyone dares eat a 'hot dog' any more, >>considering what we know they put into them. >> >>A good braut, or polish sausage is something else again, and ketchup would >>ruin them. >>_________________________________________________________________ From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Jul 11 19:18:47 2001 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:18:47 -0700 Subject: Ketchup In-Reply-To: <448452.3203834954@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jul 2001, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > > And Allen, if ketchup on hot dogs is such a new idea to you, how come they > have one of those big plastic-jars-with-that-squirt-thingamajig filled with > mustard AND one filled with ketchup wherever they serve hot dogs in your > erstwhile hometown (and to my knowledge, everywhere else I've lived)? (I > guess you'll claim the ketchup jar is just for the hamburgers.) (Or that > those d**n Californians brought it with them after you left.):) Surely for burgers, fries (incl. onion rings), and foreigners. According to the National Hot Dog and Sausage Council webpage section on Hot Dog Etiquette (http://www.hot-dog.org/hd_etiquette.htm) we have the following authoritative advice: "Fresh herbs on the same plate with hot dogs are a major "Don't..." Mustard, relish, onions, cheese and chili are acceptable. Don't... use ketchup on your hot dog after the age of 18." So perhaps the large jars of ketchup are for the benefit of those 18 and under. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Jul 11 20:18:51 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:18:51 -0700 Subject: Ketchup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ...And the young at heart. --On Wednesday, July 11, 2001 12:18 PM -0700 "A. Maberry" wrote: > So perhaps the large jars of ketchup are for the benefit of those 18 and > under. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET Wed Jul 11 20:45:30 2001 From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:45:30 -0400 Subject: Icelandic & Danish terms Message-ID: Having eaten ketchup on my hotdogs since I could chew one (I'm now 75) I find it difficult to understand what's so unacceptable about this use. On our high school swimming team we had an excellent diver who ate ketchup on vanilla ice cream. Now THAT'S a use I never could understand (It apparently had no deleterious direct or indirect effect; the team was state champs 2 of the 3 years I was in high school and that diver was top 3 every year!). Bob Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > I agree with you that ketchup is common on hot dogs in Seattle. I > first saw my sister put ketchup on her scrambled eggs about 20 years > ago. Never have understood it, though. > > Benjamin Barrett > Tukwila, WA > Gambling, gamboling and more at the Riverside Inn in Tukwila! > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > Ketchup on scrambled eggs is also common. (I apologize > > if this rvelation > > > reaches you when you are eating.) > > > > Never heard of ketchup on scrambled eggs. But then, I've > > never lived in > > Pennsylvania, either. > > Anne G From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Wed Jul 11 21:50:03 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:50:03 -0400 Subject: Tea & Pee Message-ID: Allen writes: >>>>> I barely recall an ad campaign in the (early?) 1970s either promoting tea in general or a specific brand. Anyway the slogan was "Drink tea and see." (i.e. see how good it is). This naturally gave rise to "Drink tea and pee" but I don't recall having heard it since or in any other context. <<<<< I remember it as "Take [not 'drink'] tea and see". I don't remember the brand (I love it when that happens, especially with hot new ads), but it was almost certainly Tetley or another mass brand. (I also remember parodying it as "Take TNT... and see!")