From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Sep 1 00:31:07 2001 From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 19:31:07 -0500 Subject: Query: "Spanish Practices" Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 1 05:41:37 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 01:41:37 EDT Subject: Alex Frankel pinch-hits for Safire Message-ID: Alex Frankel pinch hits for William Safire in this Sunday's "On Langugage" column. No Fred Shapiro, unfortunately. Alex Frankel? Related to Max Frankel, perhaps--the longtime NY Times writer? From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sat Sep 1 09:59:17 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 10:59:17 +0100 Subject: "Check to see if my bicycle is still there" Message-ID: FWIW: a good friend invariably announces that 'I'm going to turn my bike around' when vanishing to the bathroom. He is also an on-and-off visitor to Poland, but this may be coincidence. Jonathon Green From douglas at NB.NET Sat Sep 1 14:28:13 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 10:28:13 -0400 Subject: Where He lost them Message-ID: For those who like quaint (American[?]) expressions, a question .... Any takers? Whence the expression "where Jesus lost his shoes", = "way out in the sticks/boondocks/wilderness" or " out in the end of nowhere"? I've heard only this form. Google search doesn't show it on the Web, but I get three hits for "where Jesus lost his sandals" and one for "where Christ lost his shoes", in the same sense. Is this from some Bible story? -- Doug Wilson From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Sat Sep 1 15:29:38 2001 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 17:29:38 +0200 Subject: Where He lost them Message-ID: > For those who like quaint (American[?]) expressions, a question .... Any > takers? > > Whence the expression "where Jesus lost his shoes", = "way out in the > sticks/boondocks/wilderness" or " out in the end of nowhere"? > > I've heard only this form. Google search doesn't show it on the Web, but I > get three hits for "where Jesus lost his sandals" and one for "where Christ > lost his shoes", in the same sense. > > Is this from some Bible story? > -- Doug Wilson I don't think it's from the Bible, because I know my Bible and I don't recall Jesus losing his sandals. But as a native speaker of Chilean Spanish I can tell you that way out in the boonies is "donde el diablo perdió el poncho," where the devil lost his poncho. In Chile the devil is always getting into trouble, or at least he used to when I was a kid. I happen to know that the devil lost his poncho in Thollon-les-Mémises, the village in the French Alps where I happen to live. I found it the other day and judging by the size of it, the devil is a dwarf. Paul _________________________________ Paul Frank English translation from Chinese, German, French, Italian, Spanish and Portuguese Business, law and the social sciences Phone (France) +33 450 70 99 90 paulfrank at post.harvard.edu paulfrank at wanadoo.fr From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 1 22:19:14 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 18:19:14 EDT Subject: "Girls who sell mushrooms" Message-ID: GIRLS WHO SELL MUSHROOMS--Hookers. They're alongside the road at major highways (Poland and other countries), wearing short pants. My guide said they stand close to some places that sell mushrooms, so they've been given this name. It looks like "I've gone out to check the price of mushrooms" is going to be a standard joke for a few days here. But beware--they probably carry a fungus. HUNGARIAN DOGS--salt carts (used in the closed salt mine I visited today, a UNESCO World Heritage site). SNOWMAN--salt blocks. SHORT CUT TO CHINA--the salt mine (used by a salt mine tour guide). NIGHT BAR--another "bar." Does it sell nights? 24/24--used in a store that also has "nonstop." Not 0/24? ZARKOJE--a meal at a Ukrainian restaurant here. OED? I HAD TO TALK TO THE BIG EAR--Another "gone to the toilet" one, according to my guide. BE CAREFUL. HE HAS A RUBBER EAR--he spreads what you say all around town. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Sat Sep 1 20:15:39 2001 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 16:15:39 -0400 Subject: Where He lost them Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2001 10:28:13 -0400 "Douglas G. Wilson" > > Whence the expression "where Jesus lost his shoes" Sandal. D From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 2 19:41:55 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 15:41:55 EDT Subject: Dance Dance Revolution (DDR) Message-ID: G'day from Gdynia, part of the tri-city area with Gdansk. From USA TODAY, Friday, 31 August-2 September 2001 (a three-day, blockbuster USA TODAY), pg. 11B, col. 3: Dubbed Bemani games (for "beat mania"), they include contests that involve strumming guitars, beating drums and playing keyboards. (Col. 5 box--ed.) _The DDR experience_ _Bar hugger:_ Novice player who relies too heavily on the support bar that backs DDR's dance platform. _Bong Thomas:_ Trick move in which expert player grabs the bar to swing around it, circling the dance floor in the process. _Catastrophic:_ The highest level of DDR play. _Great attack:_ When a player is aiming for the most "perfect" sequences possible. _Hand plant:_ Using a hand to slap the dance floor arrow. _Hidden:_ Experts only: a level of play in which the monitor's arrows disappear before reaching the top of the screen, requiring the players to memorize the routine. _Left foot only:_ Or LFO, just as it sound; using only that foot to play. Also RFO. _Matrix walk:_ Using the bar, the player lifts up horizontal to the floor and places feet on the screen; frowned on by the arcade owners. Source: ddrfreak.com From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Sep 2 23:54:21 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 19:54:21 -0400 Subject: Dance Dance Revolution (DDR) In-Reply-To: <123.41c393d.28c3e584@aol.com> Message-ID: > Why does Barry continue this Polish bullshit? Does he have the same tourguide in the north that he had in the south? The tri-city area is Gdansk, Gdynia, and Sopot, and he makes it sound like a bad Polish joke - a tri-city area with two cities. Not so Barry - almost as big a mistake as the Windy City and the Big Apple, if I may rub salt in the wounds. dInIs > G'day from Gdynia, part of the tri-city area with Gdansk. > From USA TODAY, Friday, 31 August-2 September 2001 (a three-day, >blockbuster USA TODAY), pg. 11B, col. 3: > > Dubbed Bemani games (for "beat mania"), they include contests >that involve strumming guitars, beating drums and playing keyboards. > >(Col. 5 box--ed.) > >_The DDR experience_ > >_Bar hugger:_ Novice player who relies too heavily on the support >bar that backs DDR's dance platform. >_Bong Thomas:_ Trick move in which expert player grabs the bar to >swing around it, circling the dance floor in the process. >_Catastrophic:_ The highest level of DDR play. >_Great attack:_ When a player is aiming for the most "perfect" >sequences possible. >_Hand plant:_ Using a hand to slap the dance floor arrow. >_Hidden:_ Experts only: a level of play in which the monitor's >arrows disappear before reaching the top of the screen, requiring >the players to memorize the routine. >_Left foot only:_ Or LFO, just as it sound; using only that foot to >play. Also RFO. >_Matrix walk:_ Using the bar, the player lifts up horizontal to the >floor and places feet on the screen; frowned on by the arcade owners. > >Source: ddrfreak.com -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Sep 3 01:48:37 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:48:37 -0500 Subject: Allen Walker Read's new book Message-ID: I have received word that the eminent scholar Allen Walker Read (now in his 90's) has a book coming out entitled _America--Naming The Country And Its People_. (The Edwin Mellen Press/Order Fulfillment Dept., PO Box 450/Lewiston, NY 14092-0450.)----customer service e-mail" cs at wzrd.com Cost: $89 + $5.00 for shipping & handling. Discounts of 20% for individuals who use their Mastercard, Visa or American express and order by phone--U.S./Canada (716) 754-2788; U.K. (01570) 423-356 The flyer says: "This book does an important service to scholarship by rescuing the hitherto scattered and unpublished talks that Allen Walker Read, considered the dean of onomastics, gave to The American Name Society and other learned societies. Each of these papers bears the mark of an inquiring, industrious, and insightful scholar whom Oxford University (where he was a Rhodes Scholar) eventually honored with a doctorate of letters." There are two testimonials, which I quote in part: 1) "Professor Read is the dean of American place name scholars, and this book is a collection of (mainly short) fugitive pieces by him, never before published. ..."---Charles A. Huttar 2) "Allen Walker read is the most scholarly person to have addressed historical questions of onomastics in America, and these papers are a significant contribution that will be valued by others in the field. ..." -- Richard W. Bailey Twenty-six items are listed for the table of contents, of which a few are: 1) The Claims for a Native Source of the Name _America_. 2) What Area Does the Name _America_ Refer to? 3) Rival Etymologies of _Yankee_ 4) _Gothamites_, _East Villagers_, _Morningsiders_, and _Big Applians_ 5) Who were the Aberginians? 6) The Naming of the Confederacy. 7) _Maniacs_, _Michiganders_, _Nebraskals_, Arkansawyers_ Incidentally, I have no connection with the publication of this book, and I post this notice solely out of my deep admiration for Allen Walker Read and his work. His book belongs on the shelves of every university library, as well as some private ones, of course. ---Gerald Cohen From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Sep 3 03:45:50 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 23:45:50 EDT Subject: Allen Walker Read has TWO new books Message-ID: In addition to the $89 collection of Allen Walker Read's onomastics essays that Gerald Cohen refers to (_America--Naming The Country And Its People_.), the Duke University Press will publish, as the next volume in the Publication of the American Dialect Society Series, a collection of Read's other linguistic essays. Because this is the NEXT issue of PADS, all members of the American Dialect Society will receive this book free of charge. The title of the book is _Milestones in the History of English in America_. It is edited by Richard W. Bailey (The University of Michigan) Table of Contents: Preface by Richard W. Bailey Introduction by Richard W. Bailey Essays by Allen Walker Read: •Early American English •Milestones in the Branching of British and American English •The Embattled Dominance of English in the United States •The Impact of 'Ethnicity' on Attitudes toward the English Language •British Recognition of American Speech in the Eighteenth-Century •Amphi-Atlantic English •The Assimilation of the Speech of British Immigrants in Colonial America •The Distinguishing Features of American Talk •Words Indicating Social Status in America in the Eighteenth Century •The Allegiance to Dictionaries in American Linguistic Attitudes •O. K. •The Evidence on 'OK' •The First Stage in the History of 'O. K.' •The Second Stage in the History of 'O. K.' •Later Stages in the History of 'O. K.' •Successive Revisions in the Explanation of 'O. K.' •The Folklore of 'O. K.' •Sticking to Facts: A letter to Howard Berthoff •The F-Word •An Obscenity Symbol •A Type of Ostentatious Taboo •Where Does the Word Come From? (Some Letters). •A Life in Language •A Personal Journey through Linguistics •The Cavalcade of Scholars in American English since 1925 •Rhodes Scholar From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 3 13:24:32 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:24:32 EDT Subject: Kasownik Message-ID: Greetings from Gdansk. I'm sorry--I did not mean to say that there were only two cities in the tri-city area. I'll be visiting the smallest--Sopot--in about an hour. Zapiekanka (or "Zapiekanki" for plural) was "baked sandwich" in the English on one sign. From TORUN FROM A TO Z (Gdansk, 2000), "Definitions of selected terms appearing in the guide," pg. 68: "kaszownik"--a type of machicolation in the gate wall, used to smite the enemy from above once the portcullis has been forced open. (OED?--ed.) (Torun is famous for Copernicus, but also has great gingerbread. I don't have a unique OED entry/suggestion for gingerbread, though--ed.) From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Sep 3 13:49:30 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:49:30 -0400 Subject: Kasownik In-Reply-To: <165.2c6a75.28c4de90@aol.com> Message-ID: > Barry, Make sure you go not only to the famous beachfront and Grand Hotel (with its lifesize chess pieces) but also to the Baroque church in Sopot which has one of the most elaborate mechanized organs in the world. Drummers drum, knights joust, angels fly and trumpet, etc... "Organ," by the way, is pluralia tantum in Polish, and led to one of my favorite translated notices (in Gdynia): "In this church may be viewed the maginificent organs of St. John." It's almost as good as the Poznan culinary notice "Chickens roasted on spit." dInIs > Greetings from Gdansk. I'm sorry--I did not mean to say that >there were only two cities in the tri-city area. I'll be visiting >the smallest--Sopot--in about an hour. > Zapiekanka (or "Zapiekanki" for plural) was "baked sandwich" in >the English on one sign. > From TORUN FROM A TO Z (Gdansk, 2000), "Definitions of selected >terms appearing in the guide," pg. 68: > >"kaszownik"--a type of machicolation in the gate wall, used to smite >the enemy from above once the portcullis has been forced open. >(OED?--ed.) > >(Torun is famous for Copernicus, but also has great gingerbread. I >don't have a unique OED entry/suggestion for gingerbread, >though--ed.) -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 3 16:55:03 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:55:03 EDT Subject: "Race of Turtles" Message-ID: Sopot had a bicycle race today and the streets were a mess, so I'll visit there first thing tomorrow morning. Two from my tour guide (the same one; he's a student): RACE OF TURTLES--Two slow cars blocking both lanes of a highway. LIKE AN OLD MAN'S ASS--The weather is cold, humid, and windy. From dsgood at VISI.COM Mon Sep 3 21:29:20 2001 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 16:29:20 -0500 Subject: introductory works on North American English? Message-ID: Are there any introductory works on dialects of North American English? As distinguished from ones which discuss the US and Canada as entirely separate regions? Dan Goodman dsgood at visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Sep 3 22:53:46 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 18:53:46 -0400 Subject: "Race of Turtles" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Barry, Try this old Polish proverb out on your guide: LIFE IS LIKE A BABY'S SHIRT: SHORT AND SHITTY. dInIs > Sopot had a bicycle race today and the streets were a mess, so >I'll visit there first thing tomorrow morning. > Two from my tour guide (the same one; he's a student): > >RACE OF TURTLES--Two slow cars blocking both lanes of a highway. > >LIKE AN OLD MAN'S ASS--The weather is cold, humid, and windy. -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Janievh at AOL.COM Mon Sep 3 23:00:50 2001 From: Janievh at AOL.COM (Janievh at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 19:00:50 EDT Subject: St. Louis Dialect Message-ID: Hi!! My name is Jane van Hool and I am a Dialect Coach in the UK (London). I am working on a play called 'Stairs to the Roof' for the Chichester Festival Theatre and need to know what a modern day St. Louis accent is like. Do you have any phonetics/films I could watch/ TV shows or famous actors I could use as examples of this dialect? Please help!!! Best Jane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 4 14:24:33 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:24:33 EDT Subject: Dumpster Diving & Kites Message-ID: An article on "dumpster diving" and "kites" (corporate espionage) was in last weekend's FINANCIAL TIMES. A book was cited that should be worth reading for these terms. MISC.: I just toured the church where Copernicus is buried...The New York Times, amazingly, still hasn't written an editorial condemning the "Zionism is racism" resolution in Durban. CNN has also been vomit-inducing on this. Did Ted Turner ever give a billion dollars to DARE? A penny? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 5 17:53:16 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:53:16 EDT Subject: Dyngus Day Message-ID: Greetings from Bialystock, Poland. I just finished a tour of Hitler's bunker (Wolfschanze), where there was an assassination attempt in 1944. The tour guide was a nice woman who burst into a "Bridge over the River Kwai"-type tune about Hitler's one ball. (See ADS-L archives.) I return home on Saturday. DYNGUS DAY--See www.dyngusday.com. It's the day after Easter when women have wet T-shirts. Boy, did I tour Poland on the wrong day...This Polish term is not in the OED. Search also for "Smingus Dyngus." BOXING MONDAY--The day after Easter is also called "Boxing Monday." Also not in the OED. COFFIN COMPARTMENT--Visually shown on "Insight" on CNN, in a story about Mexican immigration to the U.S. It's a hidden vehicle compartment where immigrants are stored, but there's little air, and they often suffocate from the vehicle's fumes. Horrible. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 5 19:55:05 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:55:05 EDT Subject: Polish Slang Dictionary Online Message-ID: I've been looking for Polish slang in bookstores, but good stuff appears to be online: www.univ.gda.pl/slang www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3580/polish.htm Both have "pedal" for "homosexual." An English-Polish book of 5,000 terms is THE POLISH-ENGLISH DICTIONARY OF SLANG AND COLLOQUIALISM (1998) by Widawski. This and other books are mentioned at: www.slavica.com/teaching/Riley.html From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Sep 5 20:56:36 2001 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:56:36 -0500 Subject: St. Louis Dialect Message-ID: According to Internet Movie Database, Kevin Kline, Scott Bakula, and Robert Guillaume are natives of StL. The stereotypical accent feature of the dialect is the merger of /ar/ and /or/ which results in 'four' sounding like 'far'. From my casual observations, this is heard mostly from older (50+) speakers; certainly none of my students have this. Younger speakers might have elements of the Northern Cities Shift especially the raising and fronting of /ae/ ('bat' sounds like 'bet'), the fronting of /a/ ('cot' sounds like 'cat') and the lowering or backing of /E/ ('bet' sounds like 'bat' or 'but'). Still, these features are not nearly as well established in StL as in real northern cities like Chicago and Detroit. A well known feature of African-American speech in St. Louis is the backing of /Er/ and/or /Ir/ so that 'here' and possibly 'hair' rhyme with 'fur'. This feature is discussed (and exemplified?) by hip-hop star Nelly on his Country Grammar CD, I think. Janievh at AOL.COM wrote: > Hi!! > > My name is Jane van Hool and I am a Dialect Coach in the UK (London). > I am > working on a play called 'Stairs to the Roof' for the Chichester > Festival > Theatre and need to know what a modern day St. Louis accent is like. > Do you > have any phonetics/films I could watch/ TV shows or famous actors I > could use > as examples of this dialect? > > Please help!!! > > Best > > Jane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Sep 5 21:14:20 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:14:20 -0400 Subject: St Louis dialect Message-ID: Matthew Gordon writes: > According to Internet Movie Database, Kevin Kline, Scott Bakula, and >>Robert Guillaume are natives of StL. So, for that matter, was Vincent Price, but although his diction was considered to be exemplary of American Standard, I don't know that it sheds much light on the special features of St. Louis speech. [My mother (b. 1905) was a St. Louis native, but her speech showed none of the features described in Gordon's post.] A. Murie From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Sep 5 21:31:52 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:31:52 -0400 Subject: JOB: Editorial Assistant, Oxford English Dictionary Message-ID: The Oxford English Dictionary is hiring an editorial assistant. Details can be found at: http://www.oup-usa.org/jobs/display.cgi/169 If you know of anyone who would be a good candidate for this, I'd appreciate it if you could let them know of the possibility. Thanks, and sorry if you've gotten this message through more than one channel. Best, Jesse Sheidlower Oxford English Dictionary From vyer at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Sep 5 22:01:46 2001 From: vyer at EARTHLINK.NET (Leif Knutsen) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:01:46 -0400 Subject: "Leverage" as a verb Message-ID: Maybe I'm too much of a purist, but I was under the impression that using "leverage" as a verb is still something we're hoping won't make it into proper usage. Have I lost this battle, or are authoritative editors still holding out with me? Leif -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drubin at ARCHES.UGA.EDU Wed Sep 5 21:54:06 2001 From: drubin at ARCHES.UGA.EDU (Donald L. Rubin) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:54:06 -0400 Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples Message-ID: On behalf of a MA student who will be conducting a dialect & attitude study, I am seeking to "borrow" some audio samples of matched guise AAVE/SAE speech. That is, one speech sample should be identifiable as some version of African American Vernacular English, and one sample--produced by that same speaker-- should be identifiable as some version of Standard American English. Ideally, the speaker would be an adolescent male, and the topics of the two matched speech samples would be identical (or at least closely related). Thirty years ago, of course, a good deal of social psychological research utilized such matched guise speech samples. But they are apparently hard to come by nowadays. Thanks for any assistance. -- Don Rubin Professor Department of Language Education Department of Speech Communication and the Program in Linguistics 141 Terrell Hall voice: 706.542.3247 or 5674 University of Georgia fax: 706.542.3245 or 4509 Athens, GA 30302-1725 USA email: drubin at uga.edu From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Sep 5 23:46:24 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:46:24 -0400 Subject: Polish Slang Dictionary Online In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No they don't Barry. The final 'l' in "pedal" is not 'l'; it's barred-l (pronounced like a "w' in English. (That's why the bicycle etymology your siily guide gave you was was so glupy. ("Glupy" also with barred-l, meaning "dumb.") DInIs Prestonski > I've been looking for Polish slang in bookstores, but good stuff >appears to be online: > >www.univ.gda.pl/slang >www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3580/polish.htm > > Both have "pedal" for "homosexual." > An English-Polish book of 5,000 terms is THE POLISH-ENGLISH >DICTIONARY OF SLANG AND COLLOQUIALISM (1998) by Widawski. This and >other books are mentioned at: www.slavica.com/teaching/Riley.html -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Sep 5 23:52:37 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:52:37 -0400 Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples In-Reply-To: <3B969EFE.F869F15B@uga.edu> Message-ID: They are not only hard to come by; they are suspect, and, not to seem curmudgeonly, one would expect that researchers would prepare their own stimulus data for such work. dInIs >On behalf of a MA student who will be conducting a dialect & attitude >study, I am seeking to "borrow" some audio samples of matched guise >AAVE/SAE speech. That is, one speech sample should be identifiable as >some version of African American Vernacular English, and one >sample--produced by that same speaker-- should be identifiable as some >version of Standard American English. Ideally, the speaker would be an >adolescent male, and the topics of the two matched speech samples would >be identical (or at least closely related). Thirty years ago, of >course, a good deal of social psychological research utilized such >matched guise speech samples. But they are apparently hard to come by >nowadays. > >Thanks for any assistance. >-- >Don Rubin >Professor >Department of Language Education >Department of Speech Communication > and the Program in Linguistics >141 Terrell Hall voice: 706.542.3247 or 5674 >University of Georgia fax: 706.542.3245 or 4509 >Athens, GA 30302-1725 USA email: drubin at uga.edu -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Sep 5 23:56:36 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:56:36 -0400 Subject: "Leverage" as a verb In-Reply-To: <009f01c13656$5b7e5d60$9178c7d0@LKNUTSENT20> Message-ID: Leif, Please send a list of authoritative editors to me for review; I'll let you know in a later posting whether they really are. I'm the last word on this crap; I leveraged myself into the position. dInIs PS: As you can see from my last two posts, you shouldn't check your mail right after dinner - at least not when it includes a delicious bottle of Te Kairanga Sauvignon Blanc (New Zealand). Get one and drink it. Thank me later. >Maybe I'm too much of a purist, but I was under the impression that >using "leverage" as a verb is still something we're hoping won't >make it into proper usage. Have I lost this battle, or are >authoritative editors still holding out with me? > >Leif -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From douglas at NB.NET Thu Sep 6 07:51:31 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 03:51:31 -0400 Subject: A question for lexicographers Message-ID: Recently a correspondent asked me about the origin of the word "poontang". I consulted the standard references, which mostly agreed with my first impression that it is derived from French "putain". OED, M-W, AHD, Cassell's slang dictionary, and many others cite only this derivation (some with 'perhaps', 'probably', etc.). My Random House dictionary expresses doubt on phonetic and semantic grounds, and cites a possible origin in a minor language of Sierra Leone -- IMHO absurdly implausible in the absence of strong confirming data. Partridge also demurs, and prefers an (apparently unspecified) Amerind origin -- a priori very implausible IMHO ... as well as inchoate. My question is this: Is the putative origin from French based only on a plausibility argument (i.e., the sense is right, the phonetics is right, the milieu is right [via Louisiana French or post WW I]), or is there some actual evidence of the derivation (e.g., early attestations of transitional forms, or memoirs from ca. 1920 stating that the word came from France or New Orleans or wherever)? I agree with the apparent majority view that the French derivation is plausible on all three grounds. But I have developed at least one alternative derivation which seems at least equally plausible, yet which I've never seen explicitly presented anywhere: before I do further 'research', I'd like to know whether there is firm (or somewhat firm) evidence for the derivation from "putain". Can any of the lexicographers (or other scholars) help me? -- Doug Wilson From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Sep 6 10:33:21 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:33:21 -0400 Subject: "Leverage" as a verb Message-ID: leverage, v. Third Barnhart Dictionary of New English (e.q.=1957) Macquarie Dictionary of New English Oxford Dictionary of New Words Bloomsbury, Neologisms New Words since 1960 I would guess that by now it's at least informal. Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] barnhart at highlands.com www.highlands.com/Lexik "Necessity obliges us to neologize." Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Sep 6 11:26:29 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:26:29 +0100 Subject: A question for lexicographers Message-ID: >My question is this: Is the putative origin from French based only on a >plausibility argument (i.e., the sense is right, the phonetics is right, >the milieu is right [via Louisiana French or post WW I]), or is there some >actual evidence of the derivation (e.g., early attestations of transitional >forms, or memoirs from ca. 1920 stating that the word came from France or >New Orleans or wherever)? I went for 'putain' in CDS and, as you note, added a '?'. Partridge was a great slang collector, but he would always prefer to essay a guess (albeit informed) than emulate when it came to etymologies that initially defeated him. I too cannot accept his links to the Philippines or Amerindia. As to the crux of the question - early evidence - I cannot, alas, help. Might the OED know? The only thing that I would add is a possible link to the Caribbean 'punany'/'punaani' (I'm not sure that there is an established spelling (cits to date include both of those plus 'punyani', 'poonany' and 'punani'), meaning vagina, and used in the same ways, lit. and fig. that 'cunt' is in 'standard' slang. Unfortunately Allsopp has chosen to exclude it, he presumably sees it as overly coarse, from the Dict. Caribbean English Usage, nor is it in Cassidy & LePage's earlier Dict. of Jamaican English. I cannot offer a precise ety. though there maybe links to the synon. 'pum-pum' (which is rooted in W. African Krio) or S. Afr. 'pundu' , itself from Xhosa 'impundu', buttocks or vagina. All that suggsted, I have no cit. for 'punany' earlier than 1980s. One further suggestion, which you may not have seen, is in Major's dict. of black slang, Juba to Jive. He dates it 1700s-1940s and spells it variously 'poontang' and 'puntang'. I cannot accept the first date (and surely he's cut off its use very prematurely) but, as is often his way with a number of terms to which ascribes W. African origins, he sees it as coming to the US with the early slaves, and being rooted in " 'puntuny' (Lima) and/or 'mu ntanga' (Bantu)" - both W. African langs. and both meaning vagina, sexual intercourse and black female sexuality; these roots then 'converged with 'putain ' " Unfortunately his sources, primarily Edith Folb and contemporary oral, offer no proof as to this 18C, or even 19C use. Jonathon Green From vyer at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 6 13:01:48 2001 From: vyer at EARTHLINK.NET (Leif Knutsen) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:01:48 -0400 Subject: "Leverage" as a verb Message-ID: I'm still looking for those editors with real authority, but in the meantime I looked other places. As David Barnhart shows in the e-mail (way) below, "leverage" as a verb seems to be a new word that has crept into common usage. I'm a management consultant, and in my field the term has come into use as a synonym for "use," "take advantage of," "exploit," "apply," or even "enhance." For example, "we will help you find ways to better leverage your customer intelligence." It's clearly become part of the consulting "dialect" (aka "consultingese"), but that might actually be a bad thing. Dictionaries The following standard dictionaries do not allow that leverage can be a verb: Macquarie Dictionary, Random House Webster, and XRefer. It's Interesting that several online dictionaries allow "leverage" as a verb for the narrow meaning of borrowing money to control a corporation, thereby creating leverage from a small amount of equity. These dictionaries include The Cambridge Dictionary of American English, (but not the Cambridge International Dictionary), Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, and The New Shorter English Dictionary, which suggests "lever" as a synonym. David Barnhart writes that "leverage" as a verb has come into informal usage and cites The Barnhart Dictionary of New English, Macquarie Dictionary of New English, Oxford Dictionary of New Words, and Bloomsbury, Neologisms of New Words Since 1960. The only dictionary that allows "leverage" as a verb as to "improve" or "enhance" is the American Heritage Dictionary (the source for dictionary.com). Style guides The New York Times Style Guide makes no particular mention of it, and neither do the half dozen other style guides I found at Barnes & Noble. I have the Economist Style Guide buries somewhere in my basement but couldn't find it. One usage guide did, however bring it up: Dictionary of Modern American Usage, Bryan Garner: [cites it as a strictly financial term, but then writes] The term has a definitive meaning, but nevertheless may be characterized as a term used primarily by financial jargonmongers. (See "jargon") >From the OECD Style Guide: Trendy expressions soon become tired expressions. To keep your writing fresh, steer clear of buzzwords such as leverage (as a verb), paradigm and sea change, as well as clichés such as state-of-the-art and cross-cutting. Your text may seem more topical if you sprinkle in a globalisation here, a sustainability there, but are these voguish (albeit vital) concepts really pertinent to your subject? From the Free Online Dictionary of Computing's style guide Never use the word "leverage" as a verb From Professor Sputnik's Lexicranky page ("thirty three terms which ought to be dragged out and slowly shot until they've had quite enough"). One of them is: Leverage (verb) "I am leveraging my can opener to access the baked beans." Thanks to all the "leveraged buyout" hoopla in the 80's, here's an easy way to sound like a high-powered Wall Street corpo [although he points out with relief that "to leverage" has not - yet - been included in Webster's Third New International Dictionary] From Wired Style (the promotional blurb, no less) These are fingernails-on-the-blackboard words, real shiver-up-the-spine stuff: "functionality," "implementation," "bleeding edge," "leverage," "next-generation," "monetize," "mission critical." You can almost see the language curling into a fetal position to await the deathblow. "Monetize," for crying out loud. Lake Superior State University Banished Words List, under Business Babble: LEVERAGE An over-used and often mis-used term in the business world. "I think it is a false verbification of the noun 'leverage,' says Phil Rustage, London, UK. "Leverage this...leverage that...It makes me want to puke. I don't really know the new definition of this word, but I've caught on (empirically) by hearing it a dozen million times from those suit-wearing marketing bozos." Todd Ryan, Knoxville, Tennessee. Todd performed an Internet search for 'leverage' and found more than 50,000 entries. He quit (and so did we) reading after the fifth entry, calling the lot of it 'gobbledygook.' We agree From World's Worst Words - "The Shit List" - "[thirty] overused and misused words favored by the illiterate," "leverage" is number 20. This list is published by the Princeton Spectator, a college newspaper. > leverage, v. > > Third Barnhart Dictionary of New English (e.q.=1957) > Macquarie Dictionary of New English > Oxford Dictionary of New Words > Bloomsbury, Neologisms New Words since 1960 > > I would guess that by now it's at least informal. > > Regards, > David K. Barnhart, Editor > The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] > barnhart at highlands.com > www.highlands.com/Lexik > > "Necessity obliges us to neologize." > Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Thu Sep 6 14:13:01 2001 From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Lynn Irons) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:13:01 -0400 Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples Message-ID: John Baugh has been doing matched guise work to investigate discrimination in housing in California. A story on the problem and his work aired on NPR this week. The question, which is part of a court case, involves the issue of whether there is something such as "sounding black" on the phone. -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) From enoonan at GLOBE.COM Thu Sep 6 14:22:00 2001 From: enoonan at GLOBE.COM (Erica Noonan) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:22:00 -0400 Subject: Speaking the language of The Lake Message-ID: Thanks to everyone who offered help for my story re: interesting language spoken in a suburb west of Boston. The link to the story, which ran today in the Boston Globe, is below... ____________________________________________________________ The following story appeared in The Globe Online: Headline: Speaking the language of The Lake Date: 9/6/2001 Byline: " It's a sunny morning in the heart of The Lake, and Anthony ''Fat'' Pellegrini is standing on Watertown Street, ready for business. He's armed with hand-written fund-raising lists and an old cigar box, and ready to remind pals and passersby - largely one and the same - of their civic responsibilities." ____________________________________________________________ To read the entire story, click on the link below or cut and paste it into a Web browser: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/249/west/Speaking_the_language_of_The_Lake+.shtml ____________________________________________________________ This message was sent by Erica Noonan [mailto:enoonan at globe.com] through Boston.com's email recommendation service. If you have questions or comments about this free service, please email us at feedback at boston.com. From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Thu Sep 6 14:26:38 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:26:38 -0400 Subject: Dyngus Day Message-ID: Barry inscribed: >>>>> DYNGUS DAY--See www.dyngusday.com. It's the day after Easter when women have wet T-shirts. Boy, did I tour Poland on the wrong day...This Polish term is not in the OED. Search also for "Smingus Dyngus." <<<<< A look at the www.dyngusday.com shows that all the current data is Polish-*American*. Look at the "Dyngus Day History" page, http://www.dyngusday.com/HTML/history.html; everything there about Polish observance of the day is in the past tense. There's no evidence that Dyngus Day in the 21st century is anything more than a reason for Polish-Americans and their friends to have fun. For what it's worth. -- Mark A. Mandel From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Thu Sep 6 14:34:50 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:34:50 -0400 Subject: "Leverage" as a verb Message-ID: Leif Knutsen writes: >>>>> Maybe I'm too much of a purist, but I was under the impression that using "leverage" as a verb is still something we're hoping won't make it into proper usage. Have I lost this battle, or are authoritative editors still holding out with me? <<<<< So what would you have people use instead? "Lever"? "Pry"? Unlikely; just try substituting either of those into dInIs's reply (below), and don't hurt yourself wincing: Please send a list of authoritative editors to me for review; I'll let you know in a later posting whether they really are. I'm the last word on this crap; I leveraged myself into the position. The metaphorical verb is formed from the pre-existing metaphorical noun and has just as good a "right" to differ from the literal verb as does the baseball verb "fly", meaning 'hit a fly ball', with past tense "flied", not "flew". Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Sep 6 15:01:12 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:01:12 -0400 Subject: gaffone/gavone Message-ID: A cartoon by Bill Gallo in the [NY] Daily News of August 15, 2001 criticizes the ineptitude shown by baseball players when they fight. ". . . since neither guy really knows how to fight, this winds up as an ugly wrestling match. *** Nobody likes this scene -- This silly nonsense of ballplayers makin' gaf-fones [sic] of themselves. But, guys, if you must fight, at least learn how to do it right." My wife has picked up the word that Gallo renders "gaf-fone" from her particular friend, a woman from Calabria. My wife hears it as "gavone". I have checked seveal Italian dictionaries, including the Cambridge Italian-English, the Grande Dizionario della Lingua Italiana, UTET's dictionary of Italian dialects and Rohlfs' dictionary of Calabrian, but have not found it under either gaffone or gavone. The word means "fool". Does the fact that Gallo uses the word without explanation mean that it has entered at least general New York English, or is he relying on the pretty clear context to define it? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Sep 6 15:16:38 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:16:38 +0100 Subject: gaffone/gavone Message-ID: A couple of cits: 1979 Torres _After Hours_ 67: These fuckin' gafones I got around me can't think 1979 Torres _After Hours_ 182: Aba-fangool! Did I say that? Don't talk like a cafone, awright? Jonathon Green From douglas at NB.NET Thu Sep 6 15:20:22 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:20:22 -0400 Subject: gaffone/gavone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think this may be a variant of "cafone". -- Doug Wilson From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Sep 6 15:35:55 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:35:55 -0400 Subject: gaffone/gavone In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010906111822.00b11130@nb.net> Message-ID: Without a doubt. In southern Italian dialects in general, Sicilian in particular, many voiceless items from other araes turn up voiced. dInIs >I think this may be a variant of "cafone". > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Sep 6 15:18:53 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:18:53 -0400 Subject: "being have" Message-ID: A year or so ago someone set off a discussion here by posting an overheard conversation in which a mommy offered to whap the bejesus out of her kid if he didn't start "being have" ("behaving himself", the word "behave" being analyzed as if it were the verb "be" and an adjective "have"). I've had no success in finding this discussion in the Archives. I recently heard a record made in the mid 1920s by the vocalist Hociel Thomas, called either "Go On, I Told You" or "What I Told You". The song celebrates the esprit of a cake-walking baby and contains the following couplet: She came in on the Charleston wave, What I told you, she just won't have. This is probably available on CD, since Thomas is backed by Louis Armstrong. I have an Armstrong discography somewhere, which, if I could find it, would give the correct title and the date of recording. But in any event, the thought that the command "behave!" = "be have!" is at least 70 years old. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 6 15:46:38 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:46:38 -0400 Subject: St Louis dialect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For examples of what more downhome St. Louis dialect may be like, note that baseball figures Joe Garagiola (also was a sportscaster, game-show host, voiceover guy, and appeared for a short while way back on the Today Show as a fill-in host) and Yogi Berra were from St. Louis. Olympian Jackie Joyner-Kersee was from East St. Louis, the largely black community across the river from St. Louis. I don't know if Don Lance has weighed in on this issue, but he could undoubtedly come up with more exemplars. Frank Abate From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Thu Sep 6 15:51:40 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:51:40 +0100 Subject: enantiosemy Message-ID: Not a dialect question, but a word history question. Hope you don't mind! I'm looking for earlier use of the word 'enantiosemy', which is a fancy way of referring to "words that are their own opposites" (or the state of being a word with incompatible meanings) (aka Janus words, auto-antonyms, contronyms, antagonyms...). The word is not in the OED, but I suspect that some lexicographers out there somewhere might have collected info on it even if it doesn't merit inclusion in the dictionary. The earliest reference I have is 1981, but that's clearly not where it originated. Please don't refer me back to the long Linguist List discussion of the topic--the answer is not there! Best wishes, Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Thu Sep 6 16:37:32 2001 From: pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Peter Farruggio) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:37:32 -0700 Subject: gaffone/gavone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Italian word is cafone, but is pronounced ga - VOON in most southern dialects. I don't have a dictionary, but the meaning among most users is much stronger than "fool" Urban folks use it in much the same way that "redneck" or "hillbilly" is used in the US. Kids are told such things as "They are people who don't bathe, who throw their garbage in the street, who don't go to the bathroom properly, " etc Pete Farruggio At 08:01 AM 9/6/01, you wrote: >A cartoon by Bill Gallo in the [NY] Daily News of August 15, 2001 >criticizes the ineptitude shown by baseball players when they >fight. ". . . since neither guy really knows how to fight, this winds >up as an ugly wrestling match. *** Nobody likes this scene -- This >silly nonsense of ballplayers makin' gaf-fones [sic] of themselves. >But, guys, if you must fight, at least learn how to do it right." > >My wife has picked up the word that Gallo renders "gaf-fone" from her >particular friend, a woman from Calabria. My wife hears it >as "gavone". I have checked seveal Italian dictionaries, including the >Cambridge Italian-English, the Grande Dizionario della Lingua Italiana, >UTET's dictionary of Italian dialects and Rohlfs' dictionary of >Calabrian, but have not found it under either gaffone or gavone. > >The word means "fool". > >Does the fact that Gallo uses the word without explanation mean that it >has entered at least general New York English, or is he relying on the >pretty clear context to define it? > >GAT > >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African >Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Sep 6 16:46:29 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:46:29 EDT Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples Message-ID: In a message dated 9/6/01 10:14:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU writes: > The question, which is part of a court > case, involves the issue of whether there is something such as "sounding > black" on the phone. I must be missing something here. I thought it was common knowledge that there exists a dialect (multiple dialects?) of AAVE that differs phonetically from General American, Eastern, and Southern as well as in grammar and vocabulary. Such dialect(s) is as easily recognizable over a telephone as it is in person. Jim Landau From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Sep 6 17:04:23 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:04:23 -0400 Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples In-Reply-To: <14d.871a37.28c90265@aol.com> Message-ID: What's missing is the differnce between "sounding" and "being." I would be happy to attest to the African-Americaness of even a short taped sample, but I would not guarantee the African-Americaness of the speaker. This, however (even in legal commentary given in the program), seems to miss the point. Were callers prejudiced against on the basis of the hearer's ineterpretation of their race (based, obviously, on linguistic cues alone). dInIs >In a message dated 9/6/01 10:14:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU writes: > >> The question, which is part of a court >> case, involves the issue of whether there is something such as "sounding >> black" on the phone. > >I must be missing something here. I thought it was common knowledge that >there exists a dialect (multiple dialects?) of AAVE that differs phonetically >from General American, Eastern, and Southern as well as in grammar and >vocabulary. Such dialect(s) is as easily recognizable over a telephone as it >is in person. > > Jim Landau -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Thu Sep 6 17:16:55 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:16:55 +0100 Subject: "being have" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Thursday, September 6, 2001 11:18 am -0400 George Thompson wrote: > A year or so ago someone set off a discussion here by posting an > overheard conversation in which a mommy offered to whap the bejesus out > of her kid if he didn't start "being have" ("behaving himself", the > word "behave" being analyzed as if it were the verb "be" and an > adjective "have"). I've had no success in finding this discussion in > the Archives. That was me--the mother said the kid wouldn't get any treats at grandma's if the kid didn't start 'being have'. (Perhaps someone else told a 'whapping the bejesus' story, though.) > I recently heard a record made in the mid 1920s by the vocalist Hociel > Thomas, called either "Go On, I Told You" or "What I Told You". The > song celebrates the esprit of a cake-walking baby and contains the > following couplet: > She came in on the Charleston wave, > What I told you, she just won't have. > This is probably available on CD, since Thomas is backed by Louis > Armstrong. I have an Armstrong discography somewhere, which, if I > could find it, would give the correct title and the date of recording. > But in any event, the thought that the command "behave!" = "be have!" > is at least 70 years old. But there's no 'be' there--so I don't think this is a case of 'to be have' at all. It's just a case of creative rhyming of the word 'have'. Just like when American singers say 'a-gain' to rhyme with 'rain' or 'been' to rhyme with 'seen'. Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From bergdahl at OHIO.EDU Thu Sep 6 17:13:51 2001 From: bergdahl at OHIO.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:13:51 -0400 Subject: gaffone/gavone In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010906111822.00b11130@nb.net> Message-ID: --On Thursday, September 6, 2001 11:20 AM -0400 "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > I think this may be a variant of "cafone". > > -- Doug Wilson ... with typical S. Italian [g] for [k] as in "rigat" for Riccota From bergdahl at OHIO.EDU Thu Sep 6 17:19:42 2001 From: bergdahl at OHIO.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:19:42 -0400 Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples In-Reply-To: <14d.871a37.28c90265@aol.com> Message-ID: ... and anecdotal evidence from the older generation of linguists, e.g. Raven I. McDavid, attested to the fact that white southerners were often "heard" in the the north as "black" on the telephone. --On Thursday, September 6, 2001 12:46 PM +0000 "James A. Landau" wrote: > In a message dated 9/6/01 10:14:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU writes: > >> The question, which is part of a court >> case, involves the issue of whether there is something such as "sounding >> black" on the phone. > > I must be missing something here. I thought it was common knowledge that > there exists a dialect (multiple dialects?) of AAVE that differs > phonetically from General American, Eastern, and Southern as well as in > grammar and vocabulary. Such dialect(s) is as easily recognizable over a > telephone as it is in person. > > Jim Landau From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Sep 6 18:30:34 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:30:34 -0700 Subject: "being have" Message-ID: From: Lynne Murphy >--the mother said the kid wouldn't get any treats at grandma's >if the kid didn't start 'being have'... this reinterpretation of "behave" has been reported often. it appears in a list of "analogical creations" by children in hockett's A Course in Modern Linguistics (1958), p. 425: "When told _You must behave_, a child may reply _I'm being haive_." (i believe the child in question was hockett's daughter.) over the years, i've heard about such reinterpretations made by maybe a dozen different children, from various parts of the english-speaking world, from both linguists and non-linguists. in some cases, the idiom BE HAIVE became part of a "family language", but i haven't seen reports of it spreading beyond small groups. surely, this is just something that's going to be invented again and again, independently. [from George Thompson :] >> I recently heard a record made in the mid 1920s by the vocalist >> Hociel Thomas, called either "Go On, I Told You" or "What I Told >> You". The song celebrates the esprit of a cake-walking baby and >> contains the following couplet: >> She came in on the Charleston wave, >> What I told you, she just won't have. >> This is probably available on CD, since Thomas is backed by Louis >> Armstrong. I have an Armstrong discography somewhere, which, if >> I could find it, would give the correct title and the date of >> recording. But in any event, the thought that the command >> "behave!" = "be have!" is at least 70 years old. [lynne murphy again:] >But there's no 'be' there--so I don't think this is a case of 'to be >have' at all. It's just a case of creative rhyming of the word >'have'. Just like when American singers say 'a-gain' to rhyme with >'rain' or 'been' to rhyme with 'seen'. this seems dubious. AGAIN rhyming with RAIN and BEEN rhyming with SEEN are well attested in varieties of english, so there's some basis for the rhyming conventions, even for speakers who don't have these pronunciations. but HAVE rhyming with WAVE has no such basis, so far as i know; it would be purely an eye rhyme. on the other hand, "won't ha(i)ve" as an extension of "be ha(i)ve" would take quite a story. how would the "ha(i)ve" of "be ha(i)ve" get reinterpreted as a *verb*, which is what's needed for "won't ha(i)ve"? an alternative is that the song should be transcribed as What I told you, she just won't 'have. (with a foreshortened occurrence of "behave"; such clippings are very common - "'cause" for "because", "'fore" for "before", etc., though i haven't checked for other instances of "'ha(i)ve" - and the meaning of "behave" would fit the song vastly better than the meaning of "have"). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Sep 6 19:11:20 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 15:11:20 -0400 Subject: That's gay, but it's not homsexual Message-ID: An ongoing disupte in the world of boxing, in which Hasim Rahman said it was "gay" for Lennox Lewis to sue him. http://houseofboxing.com/Hauser/hauser_09-04-01.asp -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 6 20:00:04 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:00:04 EDT Subject: Polish horses & more Message-ID: Greetings again from Bialystok, where the best I could find is a "bagiel"...If the U.S. stock marlet goes down any more, the only "bread" I'll have will be "Bialystock." From that first viewing and listening of Chopin at Lazienki Park in Warsaw, my tour guide said that the barred "L" is "W" in English pronunciation. The online slang guides I cited that list "pedal" also include that pronunciation note. Again, it doesn't excuse the "pedal" bicycle etymology, however. POLISH HORSES--Seen today at Bialowieza National Park (barred L again). Also known as Tarpan horses (OED 1841) and forest horses. The OED entry doesn't mention Poland, and I can probably antedate the entry. EUROPEAN BISON--Also seen at the park, and almost extinct. I didn't find any other names, however. LAJKONIK HOBBY HORSE--OED has "hobby horse" from 1557, but this legend of Cracow appears to go back to the 13th century. TREASURER OF WIELICZA--Treasurer is "Skarbnik" in Polish, and it is the guardian ghost of mines and miners. OED should consider it (like a "dwarf" or "troll" entry). CRACOW CRIBS--"Cracovian Christmas Cribs" is on pages 120-121 of my LEGENDARY CRACOW book. This is an old tradition. Perhaps it should be considered (like a "Swiss cheese" or "Manhattan clam chowder" entry). WALKING STICK (LASKA)--A girl. SOUP--Gasoline. IN POLAND, ALL MUSHROOMS ARE EDIBLE. SOME ONLY ONCE--A gem from my tour guide. From Ittaob at AOL.COM Thu Sep 6 21:26:51 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 17:26:51 EDT Subject: gaffone/gavone Message-ID: This accords with my Webster's New World Italian-English Dictionary, which defines "cafone" as "peasant," with a pejorative extension of "boor." I believe the term, in its S. Italian pronunciation, is fairly well understood in NYC, at least among Daily News readers. Steve Boatti From magura at GIGA.PL Thu Sep 6 22:08:33 2001 From: magura at GIGA.PL (Michal Lisecki) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:08:33 +0200 Subject: Polish lg matters Message-ID: Well, it seems the right time for me to make some things stright :-) First of all, Dennis is right to note that the 'l' in 'pedal' is actually a barred-l and a "dark" one when it comes to pronunciation. However, 'glupy' should actually go 'glupi'. Should you like to check some Polish online you might like to visit any of these: ONLINE DICTIONARIES Small English-Polish Dictionary http://galaxy.uci.agh.edu.pl/~polak/slownik/ English-Polish Glossary of Legal, Economics and Business Terms http://conan.nova.org/EPG.htm Eglish-Polishg Dictionary of Information Technology http://venus.ci.uw.edu.pl/~milek/slow.htm Dictionary of Polish Spelling http://venus.ci.uw.edu.pl/~milek/ortograf.htm Dictionary of Polish Synonyms http://venus.ci.uw.edu.pl/~milek/synonim.htm English-Polish Dictionary http://akson.sgh.waw.pl/~anthon/slownik.html Alas, I am not able to check them from where I'm sending this post thus I'd like you to excuse me if some of the links are dead. Of you would like to learn more about Polish diacritic marks just let me know...:-) Coming back to 'kasownik' (eng. ticket puncher) which has been mentioned in some previous posts. It has nothing to do with 'kaszownik' of which I have never heard. Trying to trace back its etymology, however, one could discern its similarity to 'kasza' (eng. groats) and this was widely used back in the ages as a defensive weapon, poured over those attacking and trying to climb up the ramparts. So in this sense a 'kaszownik' would be either a device helping with pouring the groats or indeed a type of machicolation in the wall (like Barry noticed) used to smite the enemies. And just to conclude. I really liked your struggle with the word "zapiekanka" :-)) Didn't want to interfere... And for the time being, I am waiting for next Barry's posts. They're all so amusing. -- Michal Lisecki finger me 4 my pgp From mlisecki at POLBOX.COM Thu Sep 6 22:11:01 2001 From: mlisecki at POLBOX.COM (Michal Lisecki) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:11:01 +0200 Subject: No subject Message-ID: reviev ads-l -------------------- [POLBOX - REKLAMA] ------------------------ Sprawd� swoje bezpiecze�stwo w Sieci Zabezpiecz si� ! www.symantec.com/region/pl/product/nis2001.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Sep 6 22:33:23 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:33:23 -0400 Subject: Polish horses & more In-Reply-To: <70.facee4f.28c92fc5@aol.com> Message-ID: Barry, Finally your tour guide strikes gold (or at least silver) with his mushrooms. Authentic Polish. dInIs > Greetings again from Bialystok, where the best I could find is a >"bagiel"...If the U.S. stock marlet goes down any more, the only >"bread" I'll have will be "Bialystock." > From that first viewing and listening of Chopin at Lazienki Park >in Warsaw, my tour guide said that the barred "L" is "W" in English >pronunciation. The online slang guides I cited that list "pedal" >also include that pronunciation note. Again, it doesn't excuse the >"pedal" bicycle etymology, however. > >POLISH HORSES--Seen today at Bialowieza National Park (barred L >again). Also known as Tarpan horses (OED 1841) and forest horses. >The OED entry doesn't mention Poland, and I can probably antedate >the entry. > >EUROPEAN BISON--Also seen at the park, and almost extinct. I didn't >find any other names, however. > >LAJKONIK HOBBY HORSE--OED has "hobby horse" from 1557, but this >legend of Cracow appears to go back to the 13th century. > >TREASURER OF WIELICZA--Treasurer is "Skarbnik" in Polish, and it is >the guardian ghost of mines and miners. OED should consider it >(like a "dwarf" or "troll" entry). > >CRACOW CRIBS--"Cracovian Christmas Cribs" is on pages 120-121 of my >LEGENDARY CRACOW book. This is an old tradition. Perhaps it should >be considered (like a "Swiss cheese" or "Manhattan clam chowder" >entry). > >WALKING STICK (LASKA)--A girl. > >SOUP--Gasoline. > >IN POLAND, ALL MUSHROOMS ARE EDIBLE. SOME ONLY ONCE--A gem from my >tour guide. -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Sep 6 23:31:21 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:31:21 -0400 Subject: "being have" Message-ID: Lynne Murphy objects that in the passage "She came in on the Charleston wave, / What I told you, she just won't have" "there's no 'be' there--so I don't think this is a case of 'to be have' at all. " But "will" (won't) is the future tense of "be". So that in this instance the idea of "being have" is so assimilated that the verb has been adapted. I'll concede that this analysis/joke on of "behave" is sufficiently obvious that it may have been invented ndependently many times. I think I don't concede that "she just won't have" should be read as "she just won't 'have" ("behave" truncated of its first syllable). We may all say "I'll do it 'cause I want to" and such, but I don't think that eliding the initial syllable is universal among words in the "be" family. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From proclsia at MOZCOM.COM Fri Sep 7 18:59:01 2001 From: proclsia at MOZCOM.COM (gilbert) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:59:01 -0700 Subject: Editorial Assistant, Oxford English Dictionary In-Reply-To: <20010905173152.A26603@panix.com> Message-ID: what is the qualification of the candidate you're looking? The FREE booklet "Make $50,000 in the next 90 days" Will unlock the doors to success and money. mailto:bubwit at mozcom.com -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jesse Sheidlower Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 2:32 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: JOB: Editorial Assistant, Oxford English Dictionary The Oxford English Dictionary is hiring an editorial assistant. Details can be found at: http://www.oup-usa.org/jobs/display.cgi/169 If you know of anyone who would be a good candidate for this, I'd appreciate it if you could let them know of the possibility. Thanks, and sorry if you've gotten this message through more than one channel. Best, Jesse Sheidlower Oxford English Dictionary From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Sep 7 12:16:26 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:16:26 EDT Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples Message-ID: In a message dated 9/6/01 1:31:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bergdahl at OHIO.EDU writes: > ... and anecdotal evidence from the older generation of linguists, e.g. > Raven I. McDavid, attested to the fact that white southerners were often > "heard" in the the north as "black" on the telephone. This makes sense. Most African-to-be-American slaves were imported into the Southern US, and the distinct phonetics of the AAVE "accent" could have arisen from people speaking West African languages learning the "cornpone and magnolia" English of the US South. Hence AAVE would be closer to Southern than to General American. Is the above correct? (Hmmm. We now have another synonym for AAVE: "cornpone and cassava") I am hardly an expert on dialects, but having grown up in Kentucky I have no trouble distinguishing Southern from AAVE. (Also from such unusual dialects as Mountaineer. Then there is my brother-in-law, who is from Oldham County. Every once in a while we have to explain, "No, he's not drunk. That's the way they speak in Oldham County.") I guess many Northerners just are not as familiar with Southern English as they think they are. - Jim Landau (normally tin-eared, but not always) From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 7 12:35:37 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:35:37 -0400 Subject: Editorial Assistant, Oxford English Dictionary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We are looking candidate with the pretty good English qualification. dInIs (who couldn't resist in spite of his sounding much worse in at least half a dozen languages) >what is the qualification of the candidate you're looking? > >The FREE booklet "Make $50,000 in the next 90 days" >Will unlock the doors to success and money. >mailto:bubwit at mozcom.com > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Jesse Sheidlower >Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 2:32 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: JOB: Editorial Assistant, Oxford English Dictionary > > >The Oxford English Dictionary is hiring an editorial assistant. Details >can be found at: >http://www.oup-usa.org/jobs/display.cgi/169 > >If you know of anyone who would be a good candidate for this, I'd >appreciate it if you could let them know of the possibility. > >Thanks, and sorry if you've gotten this message through more than >one channel. > >Best, > >Jesse Sheidlower >Oxford English Dictionary -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 7 12:46:16 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:46:16 -0400 Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The difference between southern white and black speech is of long-standing linguistic interest. These recent messages overlook a couple of intereting line sof enquirey. 1) Why would African slaves have simply learned Southern white English? Why wouldn't they (in such large numbers) have contributed to the development of the variety? 2) What we know suggests that the present-day Southern variety of US English is not a long-standing one at all. That is, fairly recent changes have brought about what we think of today as Southern. 3) The ability to distinguish one ethnic group from another on the basis of speech may not always lie in the characteristics most often studied by dialactologists (although recent work by John Baugh in his work on "linguistic profiling" shows that distinctive features of pronunciatrion are indeed salient in such identification). Different voice settings (e.g., creaky voice), different intonation patternms (woefully understudied in US dialectology), and different "ways of speaking" (various poragmatic features) may be much more important than vowels and consonants. I leave lexicon, morphology, and syntax out of it, although all play important roles, but this discussion sees to have focused on phonology. dInIs PS: Would somebody send me some tapes of General American? It's the only US dialect I don't have in my collection. I'd love to be able to play it for students. >In a message dated 9/6/01 1:31:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bergdahl at OHIO.EDU >writes: > >> ... and anecdotal evidence from the older generation of linguists, e.g. >> Raven I. McDavid, attested to the fact that white southerners were often >> "heard" in the the north as "black" on the telephone. > >This makes sense. Most African-to-be-American slaves were imported into the >Southern US, and the distinct phonetics of the AAVE "accent" could have >arisen from people speaking West African languages learning the "cornpone and >magnolia" English of the US South. Hence AAVE would be closer to Southern >than to General American. > >Is the above correct? > >(Hmmm. We now have another synonym for AAVE: "cornpone and cassava") > >I am hardly an expert on dialects, but having grown up in Kentucky I have no >trouble distinguishing Southern from AAVE. (Also from such unusual dialects >as Mountaineer. Then there is my brother-in-law, who is from Oldham County. >Every once in a while we have to explain, "No, he's not drunk. That's the >way they speak in Oldham County.") > >I guess many Northerners just are not as familiar with Southern English as >they think they are. > > - Jim Landau (normally tin-eared, but not always) -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Fri Sep 7 13:07:02 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:07:02 +0100 Subject: "being have" In-Reply-To: <137b59134aa7.134aa7137b59@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: --On Thursday, September 6, 2001 7:31 pm -0400 George Thompson wrote: > Lynne Murphy objects that in the passage > "She came in on the Charleston wave, / What I told you, she just > won't have" > "there's no 'be' there--so I don't think this is a case of 'to be have' > at all. " > > But "will" (won't) is the future tense of "be". So that in this > instance the idea of "being have" is so assimilated that the verb has > been adapted. I don't see this at all. I parse 'being haive' as be + adj or adv, and one can't saw "I won't happy" or "I won't there"--you've gotta have the 'be'. > > I'll concede that this analysis/joke on of "behave" is sufficiently > obvious that it may have been invented ndependently many times. I > think I don't concede that "she just won't have" should be read as "she > just won't 'have" ("behave" truncated of its first syllable). Yeah, Arnold's probably right on this point. Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Sep 7 13:39:57 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:39:57 -0400 Subject: That's gay, but it's not homosexual; etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can report that the kids (my 15-year-old son and his crowd) use "gay" as a general term of disparagement, directed at anyone who does something they should not have done, and is viewed as weird, embarrassing, perhaps effeminate. I cannot say whether this is widespread, but it is clearly in use in slang in the Northeast. On another note, I was told (this is not from a street source) that "jack-off muscle" is slang for the muscle on the outside of the upper arm that runs angularly from the elbow to the triceps. I cannot vouch for this, but perhaps others can confirm/deny? Frank Abate From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Fri Sep 7 14:10:43 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:10:43 -0400 Subject: "being have" Message-ID: George Thompson sez: >>> Lynne Murphy objects that in the passage "She came in on the Charleston wave, / What I told you, she just won't have" "there's no 'be' there--so I don't think this is a case of 'to be have' at all. " But "will" (won't) is the future tense of "be". So that in this instance the idea of "being have" is so assimilated that the verb has been adapted. <<< Come again? *I will there at 4:30. *You'll delighted with it. *She'll coming round the mountain when she comes. *We'll together again. *We shall/will not moved. When, where, and for whom is "will"/"won't" the future tense of "be"? Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Sep 7 15:25:26 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:25:26 EDT Subject: That's gay, but it's not homosexual; etc. Message-ID: In a message dated 9/7/2001 9:41:34 AM, abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET writes: << I can report that the kids (my 15-year-old son and his crowd) use "gay" as a general term of disparagement, directed at anyone who does something they should not have done, and is viewed as weird, embarrassing, perhaps effeminate. I cannot say whether this is widespread, but it is clearly in use in slang in the Northeast. >> See RHHDAS; this meaning of GAY is widespread and has been around for years. As I have reported in this space earlier, it was the subject of a vignette in an episode of THE SIMPSONS several years ago: one of Bart's male friends, seeing Bart making romantic moves on a girl, says, "Ewwww--holding hands with a girl--that's so gay." From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Sep 7 15:53:35 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:53:35 -0400 Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples Message-ID: >dInIs writes: > Different voice settings (e.g., creaky voice), different intonation >patternms (woefully >understudied in US dialectology), and different "ways >of speaking" (various >poragmatic features) may be much more important >than vowels and consonants. > >I leave lexicon, morphology, and syntax out of it, although all play >important roles, >but this discussion sees to have focused on phonology. >~~~~~~~~~~ I used to assume that vocal timbre was largely physically determined, but have come to believe that the learned component may be at least as great & perhaps greater. (Part of my evidence for this is the high incidence of of a sort of chipmunky voice in the post-tv generation, that I attribute to a lot of exposure to animated cartoons & similar vocal models.) That being so (she said, glibly), I wonder to what extent it is considered to be a part of dialect by the scholars in this field. A. Murie Having sought in vain for a definition of the Obviously Recondite term "poragmatic," I'm beginning to suspect it is a typo....? From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 7 16:39:53 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:39:53 -0400 Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John Laver and Peter Trudgill wrote some time ago on vocal types and and dialect, John Esling (U. Victoria. Canada) is currently engaged in such research, but it is little mentioned in "standard" dialect treatments. Pragmatic was the not so esoteric word. dInIs > >dInIs writes: >> Different voice settings (e.g., creaky voice), different intonation >>patternms (woefully >understudied in US dialectology), and different "ways >>of speaking" (various >poragmatic features) may be much more important >>than vowels and consonants. >> >>I leave lexicon, morphology, and syntax out of it, although all play >>important roles, >but this discussion sees to have focused on phonology. >>~~~~~~~~~~ >I used to assume that vocal timbre was largely physically determined, but >have come to believe that the learned component may be at least as great & >perhaps greater. (Part of my evidence for this is the high incidence of of >a sort of chipmunky voice in the post-tv generation, that I attribute to a >lot of exposure to animated cartoons & similar vocal models.) That being >so (she said, glibly), I wonder to what extent it is considered to be a >part of dialect by the scholars in this field. >A. Murie >Having sought in vain for a definition of the Obviously Recondite term >"poragmatic," I'm beginning to suspect it is a typo....? -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Sep 7 17:43:21 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:43:21 -0400 Subject: "being have" Message-ID: This debate is going beyond what I had anticipated. In the context of the song, "She just won't have" undoubtedly means "she just won't act in a decorous manner because she is too spirited, too full of the spirit of jazz". If we do not derive the statement "She just won't have" from the expression "be have" (= "act nice"), then from what idiom do we derive it? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lynne Murphy Date: Friday, September 7, 2001 9:07 am Subject: Re: "being have" > --On Thursday, September 6, 2001 7:31 pm -0400 George Thompson > wrote: > > > Lynne Murphy objects that in the passage > > "She came in on the Charleston wave, / What I told you, she just > > won't have" > > "there's no 'be' there--so I don't think this is a case of 'to > be have' > > at all. " > > > > But "will" (won't) is the future tense of "be". So that in this > > instance the idea of "being have" is so assimilated that the > verb has > > been adapted. > > I don't see this at all. I parse 'being haive' as be + adj or > adv, and one > can't saw "I won't happy" or "I won't there"--you've gotta have > the 'be'. > > > > > > I'll concede that this analysis/joke on of "behave" is sufficiently > > obvious that it may have been invented ndependently many times. I > > think I don't concede that "she just won't have" should be read > as "she > > just won't 'have" ("behave" truncated of its first syllable). > > Yeah, Arnold's probably right on this point. > > Lynne > > > > M Lynne Murphy > Lecturer in Linguistics > School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences > University of Sussex > Brighton BN1 9QH > UK > > phone +44-(0)1273-678844 > fax +44-(0)1273-671320 > From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 7 18:31:17 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:31:17 -0400 Subject: "being have" In-Reply-To: <3459f634c798.34c7983459f6@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: Why must this be derived from "be have" and not "behave" with initial (unstressed) syllable deletion (as in tater, coon, possum, mater, and lots of other such words)? I have certainly heard the "I am being have" children's story enough to believe it (and believe it is a process which language acquirers duplicate often), but it does not seem relevant here. dInIs >This debate is going beyond what I had anticipated. > >In the context of the song, "She just won't have" undoubtedly >means "she just won't act in a decorous manner because she is too >spirited, too full of the spirit of jazz". > >If we do not derive the statement "She just won't have" from the >expression "be have" (= "act nice"), then from what idiom do we derive >it? > >GAT > >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African >Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Lynne Murphy >Date: Friday, September 7, 2001 9:07 am >Subject: Re: "being have" > >> --On Thursday, September 6, 2001 7:31 pm -0400 George Thompson >> wrote: >> >> > Lynne Murphy objects that in the passage >> > "She came in on the Charleston wave, / What I told you, she just >> > won't have" >> > "there's no 'be' there--so I don't think this is a case of 'to >> be have' >> > at all. " >> > >> > But "will" (won't) is the future tense of "be". So that in this >> > instance the idea of "being have" is so assimilated that the >> verb has >> > been adapted. >> >> I don't see this at all. I parse 'being haive' as be + adj or >> adv, and one >> can't saw "I won't happy" or "I won't there"--you've gotta have >> the 'be'. >> >> >> > >> > I'll concede that this analysis/joke on of "behave" is sufficiently >> > obvious that it may have been invented ndependently many times. I >> > think I don't concede that "she just won't have" should be read >> as "she >> > just won't 'have" ("behave" truncated of its first syllable). >> >> Yeah, Arnold's probably right on this point. >> >> Lynne >> >> >> >> M Lynne Murphy >> Lecturer in Linguistics >> School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences >> University of Sussex >> Brighton BN1 9QH >> UK >> >> phone +44-(0)1273-678844 >> fax +44-(0)1273-671320 >> -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Sep 7 18:52:28 2001 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:52:28 -0500 Subject: St Louis dialect Message-ID: The act of pulling someone's shorts or pants down, a mainstay of junior high, gym class comedians, is called 'pantsing' in St Louis. Elsewhere in the state of MO and where I'm from in Nebraska this act is "depantsing". Is 'pantsing' used elsewhere in the country? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 7 19:46:20 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 15:46:20 EDT Subject: Kozakiewicz gesture Message-ID: Greetings from Warsaw (perhaps "Wausau" or "War-sore" to you). I go home tomorrow...Today was the Treblinka concentration camp and an ethnographic musuem. OK GESTURE--I was told this is used here. KOZAKIEWICZ GESTURE--An upturned fist, almost as if giving the finger. The other hand is placed on this muscle. Kozakiewicz was a Polish high jumper in the 1980 Moscow Olympics. The Russian high jumper was favored by the crowd; Kozakiewicz won and gave this gesture back to the crowd. OED? From douglas at NB.NET Fri Sep 7 22:14:19 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:14:19 -0400 Subject: St Louis dialect In-Reply-To: <3B99176D.EC399008@missouri.edu> Message-ID: >The act of pulling someone's shorts or pants down, a mainstay of junior high, >gym class comedians, is called 'pantsing' in St Louis. Elsewhere in the state >of MO and where I'm from in Nebraska this act is "depantsing". > >Is 'pantsing' used elsewhere in the country? Yes, I've heard it rarely in MI (and IL, I think). I don't recall ever hearing 'depants' although it seems natural and transparent. [Compare: "He wormed his dog." = "He dewormed his dog."; "She loused his hair." = "She deloused his hair."; "This meat has been boned." = "This meat has been deboned."; etc.] -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Fri Sep 7 22:29:43 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:29:43 -0400 Subject: "being have" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There should be a verb "have" (or "'have") /heiv/ (= "behave") to go with the noun "havior"/"'havior" (which of course = "behavior"). "Hamlet", Act I, Scene II: <<'Tis not alone my inky cloak, good mother, Nor customary suits of solemn black, Nor windy suspiration of forc'd breath, No, nor the fruitful river in the eye, Nor the dejected havior of the visage, Together with all forms, moods, shapes of grief, 'That can denote me truly. These indeed seem, For they are actions that a man might play; But I have that within which passeth show -- These but the trappings and the suits of woe.>> "Havior" appears in Webster's Third. I agree that this "have" is probably simply a contraction of "behave". -- Doug Wilson From magura at GIGA.PL Fri Sep 7 23:59:30 2001 From: magura at GIGA.PL (Michal Lisecki) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 01:59:30 +0200 Subject: Kozakiewicz gesture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On a memorable day of 01-09-07 at 15:46 you wrote an email "Kozakiewicz gesture" : >OK GESTURE--I was told this is used here. > Depending on the way you actually show it :-) But frankly...no prejudices. >KOZAKIEWICZ GESTURE--An upturned fist, almost as if giving the finger. The other hand is placed on this muscle. Kozakiewicz was a Polish high jumper in the 1980 Moscow Olympics. The Russian high jumper was favored by the crowd; Kozakiewicz won and gave this gesture back to the crowd. OED? And that's a one to remember, however nowadays rarely used. I am glad you mentioned it. At that time it was a very famous thing. The fact that some gesture could win its own name by only showing it once only justifies that but in order to fully understand its meaning one would have bear in mind the tension between Poland and Russia at that time. You seem to have an interesting insight into what's interesting in Poland/Polish. What books/guides are you taking it from specifically? *********** here it ends *********** -- Michal Lisecki finger me 4 my pgp From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Sat Sep 8 01:03:20 2001 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:03:20 -0600 Subject: "being have" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: DInIs is right, I think. That's the only thing that makes sense. All that's missing from the printed version is a preceding apostrophe: "She just won't 'have." Victoria On Friday, September 07, 2001 12:31 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > > Why must this be derived from "be have" and not "behave" with initial > (unstressed) syllable deletion (as in tater, coon, possum, mater, and > lots of other such words)? > Victoria Neufeldt 1533 Early Drive Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 3K1 Canada From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Sep 8 02:01:59 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 22:01:59 -0400 Subject: Middle English Dictionary Message-ID: http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-000071967sep06.story "The dictionary covers 15,000 pages and includes more than 55,000 entries. The numerous meanings and usages are illustrated with 900,000 quotations ranging from the time of William the Conqueror to the advent of printing. "They come from Chaucer, the stories of King Arthur and early Bibles, as well as contemporary letters, wills and remarkably detailed medical treatises." -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Sep 8 02:53:17 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 22:53:17 -0400 Subject: Kozakiewicz gesture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michal, Where is "this muscle"? DInIs > Greetings from Warsaw (perhaps "Wausau" or "War-sore" to you). I >go home tomorrow...Today was the Treblinka concentration camp and an >ethnographic musuem. > >OK GESTURE--I was told this is used here. > >KOZAKIEWICZ GESTURE--An upturned fist, almost as if giving the >finger. The other hand is placed on this muscle. Kozakiewicz was a >Polish high jumper in the 1980 Moscow Olympics. The Russian high >jumper was favored by the crowd; Kozakiewicz won and gave this >gesture back to the crowd. OED? -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 8 08:08:59 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 04:08:59 EDT Subject: Jesse Sheidlower's "On Language" in NYT Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower writes the New York Times "On Language" column this Sunday. K. GESTURE--The left (or other) hand is placed on the muscle of the right arm. "No Bols, no glory"--The theme of a "Bols Polska" conference/meeting at my hotel in Bialystok. POLISH DRINKS--I get my stuff from the tour guide, from tour books, from the web, from menus with English translations, and from tourist info in English. My tour guide explained about "technical alcohol" and "blackberry pie," but I haven't found a good web site that explains any Polish meaning for these. YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP: Another "Big Apple" definition, posted on 11 June 2001: I think it comes from Mae West, she was like the hottest movie star in theater and movies in the 1930s movies...she would say, "How about them apples?" in a real slow, sexy way. The story was, she was a really big star on Broadway and the name "stuck." I also read where they put up a sign near a theater where she had a big hit show on Broadway near Times Square and called it "Big Apple Corner" in her honor...I guess you could look it up? (And I'm returning to this city?--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 8 08:43:33 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 04:43:33 EDT Subject: Amigo Diplomacy (U.S.-Mexico) Message-ID: From the FINANCIAL TIMES, Friday, 7 September 2001, pg. 15, col. 1 headline: _The harsh realities of "amigo diplomacy"_ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Sep 8 18:39:20 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:39:20 EDT Subject: Kozakiewicz gesture Message-ID: In a message dated 09/07/2001 3:48:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > OK GESTURE--I was told this is used here. > > KOZAKIEWICZ GESTURE--An upturned fist, almost as if giving the finger. The > other hand is placed on this muscle. Kozakiewicz was a Polish high jumper in > the 1980 Moscow Olympics. The Russian high jumper was favored by the crowd; > Kozakiewicz won and gave this gesture back to the crowd. OED? I have no idea of the origin of this gesture, but it has been in use in the USA for many years, with the meaning "up your ass!". A photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald, taken shortly after his arrest, shows him making this gesture. - Jim Landau From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Sat Sep 8 21:18:55 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 17:18:55 -0400 Subject: muscles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On the farm, that was the muscle exercised by milking cows. . . . At 09:39 AM 9/7/01 -0400, Frank Abate wrote: >I >On another note, I was told (this is not from a street source) that >"jack-off muscle" is slang for the muscle on the outside of the upper arm >that runs angularly from the elbow to the triceps. I cannot vouch for this, >but perhaps others can confirm/deny? > >Frank Abate _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 9 14:20:50 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 10:20:50 EDT Subject: "Recessions uncover what auditors do not" Message-ID: Greetings from New York City. -------------------------------------------------------- BIG APPLE (continued, of course) From SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, September 2001, pg. 95, col. 1 (kindly clipped and in my mailbox): On a recent sunset cruise packed with passengers and their picnics, Horenstein explains his answer to the conversial question of how the Big Apple got its name: from a bordello owner named Eve and the "apples" who worked for her. New York City can't get it right, but Poland can! From INFORMATOR TURYSTYCZNY: NOWY JORK (2000) by Monika Witkowska (www.idea.pl), pg. 1: _Wielkie Jablko_ Nowy Jork zwany jest "Wielkim Jablkiem" ("Big Apple"). Historia tego symbolu siega lat 20. naszego stulecia. Jeden z dziennikarzy, specjalista od wyscigow konnych, bedac w Nowym Orleanie, przypadkowo uslyszal, jak dzokeje mowia o torze wyscigowym w Nowym Jorku: "big apple". Wykorzystal ten zwrot i nazwal redagowana przez siebie kolumne "Dookola Wielkiego Jablka". Od tej pory nazwa ta stala sie synonimem odbywajacych sie w Nowym Jorku gonitw. Dekade pozniej muzycy jazzowi zaczeli stosowac termin "big apple" w odniesieniu do Nowego Jorku jako miasta, a zwalszcza do Harlemu, ktory uwazali za swiatowa stolice jazzu. Mowiono: "Wiele jest jablek na drzewie sukcesu, ale jesli osiagniesz Nowy Jork, oznacza to, ze zdobyles Wielkie Jablko". Jednak tak naprawde dopiero kampania promocynjna miasta w 1971 spopoularyzowala nazwe i symbol z lat 20. i 30. Dzis dorodne, czerwone jablka znajdziemy na materialach promocyjnych, koszulkach, w gazetach--po prostu wszedzie. -------------------------------------------------------- "RECESSIONS UNCOVER WHAT AUDITORS DO NOT" Did Fred Shapiro work on the origins of this phrase? Unfortunately, you'll be hearing it a lot. From the FINANCIAL TIMES, September 8-9, 2001, pg. 6, col. 5: The global slowdown is also allowing investors to rediscover the truth of the old saying that "recessions uncover what auditors do not." Acquisitions made at the height of the late-1990s expansion are now being revealed as worthless. Write-offs are more common than in a demolition derby. -------------------------------------------------------- BABY WEATHER (continued from "old man weather") From Femi Oke, my favorite CNN International weathergirl, on a recent broadcast: That's classic baby weather--wet and windy. -------------------------------------------------------- KUDOS-CAST Not in the RHHDAS or the CDS. From the same FINANCIAL TIMES, September 8-9, 2001, pg. 3, col. 5: AFI's modest resources stand to be boosted by the undisclosed terms of its deal with CBS, while its more experienced rivals in the so-called "kudos-cast" business will be left to wonder how much of their thunder will be stolen by the intruder. -------------------------------------------------------- SURF-AND-TURF, HALF-AND-HALF (both continued) From the American Express Platinum card offers in my mail, The 75th anniversary of the Palm Restaurant (1926-2001): CELEBRATE OUR 75th ANNIVERSARY WITH A MEAL OF HISTORIC PROPORTIONS The Palm's Surf and Turf Now just $95 for two We're inviting Platinum Card members to join us in celebrating our 75th anniversary by enjoying our original Surf and Turf for two for just $95 (regularly $125). And what a feast it is: Caesar Salad. An 18 oz. New York Strip Steak. Jumbo 3 lb. Nova Scotia Lobster. Vegetable of the day. SIgnature Half-and-Half (cottage fries and fried onions). Our famous New York Cheesecake (straight from the Bronx). Coffee or Tea. All in the classic Palm ambience that made our original Surf and Turf famous. (Does its "Surf and Turf" beat my 1960s citations?...New York Cheesecake is known at Lindy's in Manhattan and Junior's in Brooklyn. Not from the Bronx...I also did "Caesar Salad" and "New York Strip Steak," but that never even got me a cup of coffee--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 9 17:34:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 13:34:45 EDT Subject: First Internet Dictionary? Message-ID: FINANCIAL TIMES To the Editor: Oxford University Press is publishing _an_ internet dictionary. It is not _the first_ internet dictionary. Not by any means! See: "E-nough: Jonathan Margolis is stunned by the first dictionary of the internet," _Financial Times How to Spend It_, September 8-9, 2001, pg. 67, col. 3. It contains the statement: "This arguably oblique thought occurs as I thumb through the first internet dictionary, just published by Oxford University Press." Two disclaimers: I have not read the book, which comes out around October 1st in U. S. bookstores. Also, I'm an unpaid consultant to the Oxford English Dictionary, which is published by Oxford University Press. The granddad of all "internet dictionaries" is considered to be Eric S. Raymond's _The Hacker's Dictionary_, now _The New Hacker's Dictionary_ and online as the Jargon File. Jargon File contains the words "Gozillagram" and "angry fruit salad" that the article mentions. There are many other wonderful Internet dictionary-type sites on, well, the internet. Among them are Gareth Branywyn's JargonWatch for _Wired_ magazine, Paul McFedries' Word Spy and Tech Word Spy, Netlingo.com, the Ultimate Silicon Valley Slang Page, Buzzsaw, and Buzzwhack. A quick check of an online bookseller shows at least these titles: Dictionary of Computers and Internet Terms, 7th edition, by Michael A. Covington, et al. Random House Webster's Compueter and Internet Dictionary, 3rd edition. Webster's New World Dictionary of Computer Terms, 8th edition, by Bryan Pfaffenberger. Dictionary of Computer and Internet Words: An A to Z Guide to Hardware, Software and Cyberspace, by American Heritage Dictionaries. Computer and Internet Dictionary for Ages 9 to 99, by Charles W. Berry, et al. The Online/E-mail Dictionary, by Hayden Mead. Beginner's Illustrated Internet Dictionary, by Betty Shulman. Quick Reference Guide Computer and Internet Dictionary, by Lisa A. Bucki. Official Internet Dictionary: A Comprehensive Reference for Professionals, by Russ Bahorsky. Cyberspeak: An Oline Dictionary, by Andy Ihnatko. PC's for Dummies: Illustrated Computer Dictionary for Dummies, by Dan Gookin. Dictionary of the World Wide Web, by Cynthia B. Leshin. Dictionary of Personal Computing and the Internet, by Simon Collin. Newton's Telecom Dictionary: The Official Dictionary of Telecommunication Networking and Internet, by Harry Newton. The Hutchinston Dictionary of COmputing Multimedia and the Internet. Dictionary of Computer and Internet Terms, by Douglas Downing, et al. There are also books in other languages that are "internet dictionaries." If you exclude every single one of these books and online web sites, then Oxford's is the first internet dictionary, as the article says. Barry Popik 225 East 57th Street, Apt. 7P New York, NY 10022 (212) 308-2635 Bapopik at aol.com From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Mon Sep 10 00:43:38 2001 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 17:43:38 -0700 Subject: Kozakiewicz gesture In-Reply-To: <11.1a4f6bfd.28cbbfd8@aol.com> Message-ID: --- "James A. Landau" wrote: > In a message dated 09/07/2001 3:48:16 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > > > OK GESTURE--I was told this is used here. > > > > KOZAKIEWICZ GESTURE--An upturned fist, almost as > if giving the finger. > The > > other hand is placed on this muscle. Kozakiewicz > was a Polish high jumper > in > > the 1980 Moscow Olympics. The Russian high jumper > was favored by the > crowd; > > Kozakiewicz won and gave this gesture back to the > crowd. OED? > > I have no idea of the origin of this gesture, but it > has been in use in the > USA for many years, with the meaning "up your ass!". > > A photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald, taken shortly > after his arrest, shows him > making this gesture. > > - Jim Landau >From the description, sounds like the same thing as the "bra d'honneur". ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 10 01:28:52 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 21:28:52 EDT Subject: Kozakiewicz gesture (SI, 8-11-1980) Message-ID: From SPORTS ILLUSTRATED, 11 August 1980 (pole vault at the Moscow Olympics): Pg. 19 photo caption: Kazakiewicz responded in kind to the spectators. Pg. 21, col. 2: But the unflappable (Wladyslaw--ed.) Kozakiewicz, up (Pg. 22, col. 1--ed.) first, made this height, too, through a blizzard of jeers, and as he bounded from the pit he presented the non-Polish majority of the crowd with a forceful gesture of deep personal insult. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 10 03:02:39 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 23:02:39 EDT Subject: "I ga-ron-tee!" (Justin Wilson); K vs. LJ gestures Message-ID: K VS. LJ GESTURES I reported (see ADS-L archives) on Larry Johnson's gesture in the New York Knicks playoff victory over the Toronto Raptors, 5-1-2000. It's at: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2000/playoffs/news/2000/04/30/knicks_raptors_ap/ -------------------------------------------------------- "I GA-RON-TEE!" From the international edition of USA TODAY, 7 September 2001, pg. 9B, col. 1: _TV's Cajun chef, Justin Wilson, dies_ Justin Wilson, the Cajun humorist and chef whose distinctive accent delighted viewers of his _Cookin' Cajun_ television show, has died. He was 87. A daughter, Sarah Sue Easterly, said Wilson died Wednesday in Baton Rouge. Wilson released five cookbooks, 27 albums of short stories and an album of Christmas songs during his career. He was host of several cooking programs, including _Louisiana Cookin'_. He referred to himself as JOOS-tain and became known for the expression: "I ga-ron-tee!" (guarantee), from the Cajun "J'vous garantis." "Cajun cooking is the ability to take what you have and create a good dish and season it right," Wilson told the Associated Press in 1990. "It's creative cooking--that's all it is." A native of Amite, La., Wilson's last syndicated series of shows was _Easy Cooking_. (Cajun cooking has gone from "I ga-ron-tee!" to "BAM!"--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Sep 10 01:29:34 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:29:34 +0800 Subject: "I ga-ron-tee!" (Justin Wilson); K vs. LJ gestures In-Reply-To: <24.1904a80b.28cd8750@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:02 PM -0400 9/9/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >K VS. LJ GESTURES > > I reported (see ADS-L archives) on Larry Johnson's gesture in the >New York Knicks playoff victory over the Toronto Raptors, 5-1-2000. > It's at: > >http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2000/playoffs/news/2000/04/30/knicks_raptors_ap/ > But that one was supposedly the modestly submitted capital-L-for-Larry, so at least on the face of it, it was PG-13 rather than R rated. L From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 10 16:16:26 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:16:26 EDT Subject: Fwd: PC query Message-ID: FYI: A follow-up on the "personal computer" story in the New York Times a few Sundays ago. I walked a copy of the 1959 Datamation ad over to the New York Times building, but the editor in charge also took a vacation! --Barry Popik -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Rick Gladstone Subject: Re: PC query Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:19:49 -0400 Size: 1771 URL: From transedit.h at TELIA.COM Mon Sep 10 17:30:00 2001 From: transedit.h at TELIA.COM (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:30:00 +0200 Subject: Kozakiewics gesture Message-ID: Jim Landau wrote: >>From the description, sounds like the same thing as the "bra d'honneur". Yes, very much so: "Bras d'honneur: Geste injurieux (simulacre d'erection)" says Nouveau Petit Robert, Dictionnaire de la langue francaise. It is described by Geneviève Calbris and Jacques Montredon in Des gestes et des mots pour le dire, DIC Mini-dictionnaires, Clé International, 1986: "...made by placing one hand at the crook of the opposite arm and lifting - or extending - the latter, fist balled, to figure the male member in erection." Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Sep 10 17:53:55 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:53:55 -0700 Subject: Kozakiewics gesture In-Reply-To: <00c301c13a1e$3d8f0ea0$d1c9143e@oemcomputer> Message-ID: Aw, shucks! I really liked "bra d'honneur"! Hey--maybe if I can get it copyrighted quick enough, I could sell it to Playtex or somebody. I promise to donate all proceeds to ADS. :) Peter Mc. --On Monday, September 10, 2001 7:30 PM +0200 Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote: > the "bra d'honneur". > > Yes, very much so: > "Bras d'honneur: **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 11 08:08:12 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 04:08:12 EDT Subject: Super-Star (1964); You & Your Passport Photo Message-ID: SUPER-STAR As I posted before, the OED has 1926 and then 1969. Andy Warhol claims to have coined it, but I traced that to 1966. From CLYDE (A PLAYBOY/ESQUIRE-type publication in the 1960s), April 1964, pg. 36: _HOCKEY'S_ _NEWEST_ _SUPER-STAR_ by Stan Fischler (Bobby Hull...See also my work on "supermodel" in the old archives--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- WHEN YOU LOOK LIKE YOUR PASSPORT PHOTO, IT'S TIME TO COME HOME The title of a book by the late Erma Bombeck. However, the conception that you don't look like your horrible passport photo is not new. From a cartoon in PIC, December 1948, pg. 107, col. 1: (Husband and wife are in chairs on the deck of a ship. The husband looks terrible, and the wife says...--ed.) "You're beginning to look like your passport photo." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 11 09:01:04 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 05:01:04 EDT Subject: Kosher Americans (1929) (Yiddish word appendix) Message-ID: KOSHER AMERICANS by Joseph D. Rosenberg Associated Publishers COmpany, Atlantic City, NJ 1929 OED uses this book only once...for "tsores." It beats OED's 1953 Saul Bellow cite on "Mensch," for example. The author is from Cleveland. From the APPENDIX on pages 321-327: Pg. 321: APPENDIX Number indicates page where word or phrase is set forth in this narrative. YIDDISH TRANSLATION De golden-e' land...The golden land...1 De frie' land...The land of the free...2 Gott bench Ir...God bless her...2 Olov Hasholom...Peace to them...2 Yesh-iv-a, Bocher...College student...2 garber...tanner...2 Yitschockel Miner...My Isaac...2 Krain-a-le'...my Crown...3 Gott zu dank-en...Thank God...3 Und-ge-bencht mir tzvai-ti-er-e' kinder, zollen zai zein gazunt...and blessed with two dear, dear children, may they keep in good health...3 ebber...but...3 blass...pale...3 its-ter...now...3 nai-es...news...3 Forward...Jewish newspaper...3 Bintel Brief...Package of Letters...3 obber...but...4 schmaltz...fat...4 strudel...pastry...4 Oi, vai-is-mir...Woe is me...5 Oi, schlecht...terrible...5 Mine Schlemazel...my ill luck...5 schlecht is mere...I feel terrible...6 Yitschock...Isaac...6 zol, ich, krank-en...May I suffer...7 schlecht...terrible...8 Cho-chem...smart Alec...12 Shamos...sexton...13 Minion...congregation...13 Gott und zein mishpot is gerecht...God in His judgment is righteous...13 Kaddish...Mourner's prayer...14 Gott vet unz beiden helfen...God will help us both...14 Cha-der...Hebrew school...14 Talmud...Commentaries of the Scriptures...14 Narr...Legal term for a declaration...14 odder...or...18 Kosher...adjective, pure...20 Hechscher...stamp of approval...20 (Pg. 322--ed.) Rov...Rabbi...20 obber...but...20 tarfis...misnomer for unclean food...20 chai-odom...the Book on Life of Man...20 miner...mine...20 Mach-rain...make clean...20 cigaren...intended for cigars...21 lechaem...drink...21 terretz...excuse...21 oderin...veins...21 Ref-u-a Schelaimo...complete cure...21 Obersten's hilf..by the help of the Almighty...21 mai-del...girl...22 essen...food...22 unzer...our...22 bil-igs-te...cheapest...22 ve-den...how then...26 bala-boss...proprietor...27 balla-bosta...proprietress...27 A-zoi...so...27 Goot Shab-es...Good Sabbath...27 Kiddish..Friday evening prayer before meal...27 gefilte...stuffed...28 azoi, ge-schmack...so tasty...28 Gon-a-den...Heaven...28 Shabes...Sabbath...31 Duvid der Chazen...David the Cantor...31 Eli, Eli...My God my God...31 Aden-oi-E-Chod...The Eternal is One...31 shvesterel...little sister...32 krenk...sickness...32 vai-ber-se...female...32 falsha pen-emer...false faces...33 guten...good...33 udder...or...34 "Velvela's Kalle"..."Willie's Bride"...34 in-em-es-en leben...in true life...34 Gon-oven...thieves...35 zolen, zai, ess, ois, krank-en...may they spend it for illness...35 Gott sei dank-en...thanks to God...35 tier-e'...excellent...35 noor...but...35 A-za-yohr-aff-mere...may I have such good year...36 emes...true...36 Shabes...Sabbath...36 und, af-il-e'...even so...36 mash-gi-ach...overseer...36 zalts van-es...salt baths...36 nur...but...36 Chas-ve-shu-lom...God forbid...36 Goisha er-ter...Gentile places...36 zolaich baden zein tzu ge-zunt...may it prove healthful to you both...36 (Pg. 323--ed.) ge-sunt tzu-dir...good health to you...37 efsher...maybe...37 Voobrendt..where is the fire..37 goi-im...Gentiles...39 Azoi...So...39 Yes-i-bath, Ha-bat-loo-im...Seats of idlers...39 Go-ish...Gentiles...40 Smad-halz...glutton...40 Ap-e-ka-rus...doubter...40 unzer...our...40 Ap-e-kor-sim...doubters...41 ef-sher...maybe...41 Lernen...learning...41 Mish-oo-med...apostates...41 tsu-far dra-en a men-chens kop...to turn a person's head...41 tuma...unclean...42 Taruf, Torof, Yosoph...referring to Joseph having been torn apart by wild animals...42 a-nai-es-...something new...42 Chad-er, ingel...schoolboy...42 mil-chi-ke-plate...dish used for dairy products...42 Schi-te'...slaughter...43 Tal-mida-cha-cho-mim...the wise men...43 Kosher...clean...43 Trafes...unclean...43 Ru-shi-se schvitz-bud...the Russian sweat bath...45 schmice...whip...45 kish-kes...intestines...46 obber...but...46 Shat-chen...matrimonial agent...48 Mikvah...pool...49 (OED?--ed.) zei-gezunt...keep well...50 Yeshibath Habatlonim...Seat of Idlers...58 Shipa...intended for "Sheba"...58 Lang leben zalst du...may you live long...58 Shat-chen...matrimonial agent...60 Magna Cum Laude (Latin)...great with praise...61 Shat-chen...matrimonial agent...61 frume...religious...63 bench licht...usher in the Queen Sabbath by lighting and blessing the candles...63 gefilte fish...stuffed fish...63 Chos-en...intended...70 raid...speak...71 shid-ech...match...71 shat-chen...matchmaker...71 itz-ter...now...73 Chas-ve-sho-lom...God forbid...73 Clab-er-ais...intended for cabarets...73 ge-vald...alarm...73 Alech-em, Sho-lom...Peace to you...74 bench mit a mez-oo-men...grace after meat...74 (TO BE CONTINUED. Typist taking break, and the computer shuts off when he opens the refrigerator door--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 11 10:20:37 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 06:20:37 EDT Subject: Kosher Americans (continued) Message-ID: KOSHER AMERICANS by Joseph Rosenberg Associated Publishers Company, Atlantic City, NJ 1929 APPENDIX (continued) Pg. 324: Schule...synagogue...75 Min-che and Mai-tiv...Twilight and night services...75 Beth, Ha-mid-rosh...House of learning...75 Blatt...referred to Gemora (a page)...76 Good Shabos...Good Sabbath...76 obber...but...76 Yeshibath Habatlonim...Seat of idlers...76 Yom Kippur...Day of Atonement...77 Aver-is She'-bain Odom La-mo-kom, Yom Ha-kip-pur-im Ma-cha-per...sins committed by man towards God the Day of Atonement will obliterate..77 Veris She-bain Odom Lach-vare, Ain Yom Ha-kip-pur-im Ma-cha-per...wrongs between man and man, the Day of Atonement will not wipe out...77 Af-e-lu, Yom, Ha-miso, Ain, Ma-cha-per, Ad, Shai-ratze, Es, Chav-aro...even the day of death will not wipe out your acts until you right your wrongs with your fellowman...77 Tal-mud, Ch-chem...Learned man...77 Yesh-i-ve, Bocher...college student...78 Beth, Ha-midrosh...House of learning...79 Ka-pot-ta...coat...79 Ap-a-kor-us...doubter...80 Am-ho-or-ets...ignoramus...80 Poi'-er...dummy...80 Eo-i-cure (Epicurus)...Famous Greek Philosopher, also one devoted to luxurious sensual enjoyments, especially of the table...80 geler-en-ter mench...learned man...80 emmes-er' Yid...true Jew...80 Poi-nick-bar, Ats-mos, Ish, Ben Cha-fer...here lies the remains of a peasant...80 Cha-marim...blockheads...80 Apakor-us...doubter...81 Talmud, Cho-chem...learned or wise man...81 Ober-sten... the most High...83 baze...angry...83 Schule...synagogue...84 Kol-yis-ro-el, Cha-va-rim...all Israel are brethren...85 obber...but...87 lun-ets...intended for lunch...88 Gott-tsu-dank, leb-e-dick...Thank God--alive...88 efsher...maybe...88 obber...but...89 es-sen...food...91 nai-em...new...92 Torah...the Scroll...97 obber...but...97 mazumen...money...100 unzer...our...101 (Pg. 325--ed.) Ge-ler-en-ter-mench...learned man...101 Ches-e-da, Emos, Yesh, woo-tum, Lo-hem, Ba-olom, Habo...the pious of the Gentiles are also entitled to a portion in the coming world...101 Yesibath, Ha-bat-lon-im...seat of idlers...103 nach-us...pleasure...106 efsher...perhaps or maybe...106 Ti-er-er, keend...dear child...116 der blinder shnorer...the blind beggar...117 shi-dech...match...117 Drit-chai-lik...a third portion...117 efsher...perhaps...118 Talmida-cha-cho-mim...learned or wise men...118 Yesh-i-va...college...118 Yesibath Habatlonim...seat of idlers...118 Yitschock...Isaac...118 unzer...our...119 unz...us...119 mooches...in underworld vernacular suckers...122 (RHHDAS could have used this Yiddish citation for "mooch"--ed.) Kosher...pure...122 Mit Mazel...with luck...127 Tnoim...engagement...135 Mit-mazel und broche, af-ei-er, ganzen, leben...with luck and blessings throughout your life...136 Mit feel glick...with much luck...136 Em-is-e', Mach-a-tun-im...true relatives...136 blinder shnorer...blind beggar...143 Ke-su-ba...marriage contract...143 Chaz-en...Cantor...143 Chu-pe...a canopy...144 Mogen Du-vid...the Seal of David...144 Bo-ruch Ha-bo...blessed who cometh...145 El, Mo-lai, Rach-mim...God aboundeth with mercy...145 Hara, At, Me-ka-desh-es, Lee, Bat-a-baas, Zu, Kad-as, Mo-she-ve, Yis-ro-el...thou art consecrated to me, with this ring according to the rites of Moses and Israel...146 Mazel-tov...Good luck...146 At-hu, Va-char-to-mu, Me-kol, H-a-mim...we are God's chosen people...147 Schmai, Yis-ro-el, Ado-noi, Elo-ha-nu, Ado-noi, E'-chod...Hear, O Israel, the Eternal is God, the Eternal is One...147 Chos-en, Kal-le, Masel, Tov...Good Luck to the bride and groom...147 Mit mazel zollen alle leben...may we all live in luck...148 vibe...intended for wife...149 leb-e-dick...lively...149 kaz-ats-ke...Russian dance...149 kalle...bride...150 schwartz-er...colored man...150 Zal, zein, mit-mazel...should be with luck...150 nad-den...dowry...151 udder...or...160 unzer...our...160 (Pg. 326--ed.) um-zis-te, Tso-res...unfound troubles...161 efsher...probably, perhaps or maybe...161 Schilmazel...ill luck...164 Gott zu dank-en...thanks to God...165 tso-res...troubles...165 um glick...bad luck...165 Ich-alien-bin shuldick...I alone am to blame...170 Shma, Yis, Ro, El...Hear, O Israel...170 ganoff...thief...179 und gait er in der-erd mit de gelt...let him go to Hell with the money...179 Schuldick...to blame...179 obber...but...227 gesignate...intended for signed...228 loomp...scoundrel...229 Ma-chu-ten...relative...251 The Pa-rek, Ov-es...dicta of the Fathers...251 Al, Ter-ats-e', Es, Chav-a-ro, Beshas, Ka-a-sho...do not appease thy neighbor in the first moment of his anger...251 Beth, Ha-mid-rosh...house of learning...251 ubber...but...256 Cho-to-se...I have sinned...256 tsor-es...troubles...256 shid-dech...engagement...256 ole...intended for owe...257 E-e'vs...Job's...258 Ubber, Oi, Vai-is-mere...but woe is me...260 ganoff...thief...260 Shuf-Gan-ef, La-ti-e...the end of the thief is the gallows...263 ganoff...thief...266 nad-den...dowry...267 Talmud...Commentaries...268 Af-hu Ro-uh Gul-ga-les Ach-as Zho-fo Al-pnai Ha-mo-im...(once seeing a scull floating on the water)...269 Al Dea-taif-ta A-te-fuch Va-saif Ma-ta-yi-fo-ich Ya-tu-foon...(because thou hast immersed others, thou art thyself immersed)...269 ich, Laib-und-dank, Gott...I praise and thank God...269 Gott, vaist...God knows...271 Ois-go-gosen...spilt...273 Ober-sten...The One above...273 rach-mo-nes...mercy...273 tso-res...troubles...273 Schli-mzael...ill luck...273 mach-u-ten...relative...276 Yitschock...Isaac...278 Yitschockel...endearing term for Isaac...281 Gott, Zu-dank-en...thank God...281 Mord-che...Mordechai...282 raid...talk...283 Oi, Sch-lecht, iss mere...Oh, woe is me...283 kop, va-tick...headache...283 (Pg. 327--ed.) Er-bar-emt, zich, af, unz...been merciful to us...283 Gelaibt und Gedank is er far zein-ref-fu-a...praised and thankful is He for His cure...283 Zollen, mir, alle, zein, ge-zunt...may we all be in health...284 Zen-tell-man...intended for gentlemen...285 penne...pen...289 Sho-lem, Al-ech-em...peace to you...292 nad-den...dowry...295 aid-dem...son-in-law...296 Mazel...luck...296 Mine-keend...my child...297 Ya-vo-rech-echo, Ada-noi, Va-yish-mo-recho, Yo-air, A-do-noi, Pon-of, A-le-cho, Ve-chu-nek-u, Ye-saw, Ado-noi, Ponof, A-le-cho, Va-yo-saim, La-cho, Sho-lom...The Eternal bless and preserve thee, The Eternal cause His countenance to shine upon thee, The Eternal direct His countenance towards thee and grant thee peace...297 Mazel-tov...Good luck...298 Chos-en...intended bridegroom...298 Voo-laift...where does it run...298 Malachte'...angel...305 klapt...beats...307 Cho-to-se...I have sinned...308 unzer...our...308 Tan-es...tract referred to in the Talmud...309 Rosh, Ha-sho-no...New Year...313 fanatica...referring to fanaticism...314 Tnoi-im...engagement...314 Brith Me-lo...circumcision...314 Pyd-ion Ha-ben...redemption of the first-born son...314 Al Schlo-so Dvo-rim Ho-o-lom Omade, Al Ha-toroh Va-al Ho-a-vo-do Va-al Gme-lus Cha-so-dim...upon three bases doth the Universe rest: Knowledge, Labor and the performance of good deeds...314 obber...but...318 Mai-del...girl...318 Orent-liche...honorable...318 Yitschockel, mine krane-ale...Isaac, my crown...318 Ich-huf...I hope...318 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 11 10:42:25 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 06:42:25 EDT Subject: Li'l Abner food and drink Message-ID: From an article about the Li'l Abner cartoon (Sadie Hawkins Day) in PIC, November 1948, pg. 110, col. 3: _Food and drinks_ At most dances, a dinner better known as a "nosebag supper" is served before or during the horseplay. Po'k chops, co'n pone, presarved turnips, Genu-wine Barbecued Salomey, catfish head stew, possum tail soup, chitlin's, sliced bananas with ketchup and mayonnaise (all Li'l Abner's favorites) may be served. The chances are there'll be plenty of bellyaches if you stick too faithfully to the Yokums' diet. To keep everybody healthy, we suggest you make the following substitutions: For Salomey Special or Hammus Alabammus--ham. For presarved turnips--frosted cupcakes with gumdrop leaves. For Skunk Hollow Sandwish--club sandwich. For Yokum Special--pork chops. For Slobbovian Delight--barbecued meat or hamburgers with barbecue sauce. (Co. 4--ed.) For teetotalers, buttermilk does nicely, but the traditional Sadie Hawkins Day drink is Kickapoo Joy Juice. Li'l Abner suggests the usal "ingreejunts"--"a barr'l o' kerosene, two dozen chicken haids, a bucket o' somethin' sloppy we swiped off a passin' truck, a motorman's glove, three pairs o' old socks, a dash o' axlegrease, turpentine," etc. Concoct any brew you want, make it as zany as possible, asking each couple to contribute something (an old-look shirt, a rubber tire, a pair of false teeth, etc.). A prize should be awarded to the couple that best tells in a couplet why they consider their contribution vital to the making of Kickapoo Joy Juice. For the actual drink, however, stick to a good old-fashioned punch recipe--you'll stay healthier that-a-way. From stevekl at PANIX.COM Tue Sep 11 13:00:46 2001 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:00:46 -0400 Subject: That's gay, but it's not homosexual; etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Frank Abate wrote: > I can report that the kids (my 15-year-old son and his crowd) use "gay" as a > general term of disparagement, directed at anyone who does something they > should not have done, and is viewed as weird, embarrassing, perhaps > effeminate. I cannot say whether this is widespread, but it is clearly in > use in slang in the Northeast. This has had national exposure for quite some time. Bart Simpson has used it on The Simpsons many seasons ago (in reference to Milhouse kissing a girl, even.) Apparently it's used in the recent Kevin Smith movie too. I read an article in Boston's Bay Windows whining about how 'our' word is being taken away, using many of the same arguments people whined about when we the 'queer' sense started supplanting the 'merry' one. I almost wrote in a letter saying, get over it, words change, but I never got around to it. -- Steve Kl. From stevekl at PANIX.COM Tue Sep 11 13:03:05 2001 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:03:05 -0400 Subject: St Louis dialect In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010907175441.00afdc00@nb.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > Yes, I've heard it rarely in MI (and IL, I think). I don't recall ever > hearing 'depants' although it seems natural and transparent. Me too. I grew up in MI (1966-1986) and lived in IL (1986-1996). It's not in my active vocabulary, but is in my passive one, and I can't for the life of me figure out how, but I'm familiar with the term. Is it possible some author like Paul Zindel or Judy Blume used it in a book? -- Steve Kl. From stevekl at PANIX.COM Tue Sep 11 13:05:13 2001 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:05:13 -0400 Subject: Kozakiewicz gesture In-Reply-To: <11.1a4f6bfd.28cbbfd8@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, James A. Landau wrote: > I have no idea of the origin of this gesture, but it has been in use in the > USA for many years, with the meaning "up your ass!". In Czech, this is rendered as "Do prdele." I bet Polish has something similar. -- Steve Kl. From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Sep 11 17:40:45 2001 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:40:45 -0700 Subject: Kosher Americans (1929) (Yiddish word appendix) In-Reply-To: <62.13b4abc1.28cf2cd1@aol.com> Message-ID: A couple of very minor points: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > KOSHER AMERICANS > by Joseph D. Rosenberg > Associated Publishers COmpany, Atlantic City, NJ > 1929 > Olov Hasholom...Peace to them...2 Literally "Peace be upon him" usu. in reference to the dead. > Forward...Jewish newspaper...3 Famous Yiddish newspaper published in New York. > Minion...congregation...13 Not the whole congregation, but the minimum number present to begin prayers. > Talmud...Commentaries of the Scriptures...14 Commentary on the Mishnah, not the Scriptures. > lechaem...drink...21 Equals "La-chayim"? = to life, a common toast > Gon-a-den...Heaven...28 Literally "Garden of Eden" > Eli, Eli...My God my God...31 > Aden-oi-E-Chod...The Eternal is One...31 Lines from a famous Yiddish aria (maybe by Yossele Rosenblatt?) > Mish-oo-med...apostates...41 Lit. "an apostate" apostates is "meshumodim" > Mikvah...pool...49 (OED?--ed.) Also ritual bath. > Clab-er-ais...intended for cabarets...73 Interesting. Sounds like the name of a card game klaberjas (sp?) don't know this word. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 11 22:52:14 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:52:14 EDT Subject: There goes my trip to Iran... Message-ID: THERE GOES MY TRIP TO IRAN... Yesterday, I dropped off my visa at the Iranian Embassy in Washington, D.C. I had planned to be gone from September 17-October 23, to Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan with Mir Corp. (specialists in the former Soviet Union countries), a few days in Istanbul, and then to Iran. The professor leading the Iran tour is the author of HOW WRITING BEGAN. It was to have been a special highlight in all of my travels. First, both tour companies bought the same air tickets. Then, passenger planes are hijacked, and they attack and destroy the World Trade Center. -------------------------------------------------------- ITALIAN TRIBUNE I read 1941-1945 of New Jersey's ITALIAN TRIBUNE in the Library of Congress yesterday. The years 1931-1940 are not available; 1946-1955 are also not available. What I saw was not very interesting. It's a four pager a week, with one page in Italian. About once a month there would be food recipes, but they weren't notable. 22 August 1941, pg. 1, col. 1: Someone suggests "Hamburger Steaks" be called "Defense Steaks." Perhaps another bright mind will suggest spaghetti be called "Yankee Noodles." What about Japanese lanterns? Why not call them "Liberty Flames"? 17 July 1942, pg. 1, col. 1: Q. I am six feet three inches. How long should my skirt be? A. Long enough to cover everything and short enough to be interesting. 21 May 1942, pg. 2, col. 1: _THE NEW FRONTIER_ Every great war opens a new frontier. (...) 10 December 1943, pg. 4, col. 1: _Biscottini di Natale_ 7 January 1944, pg. 2, col. 3: ...(1) the world will soon be safe from the JAPANAZIS and... -------------------------------------------------------- COMPACT COMPACT: THE YOUNG PEOPLE'S DIGEST ran in the 1950s and had a college humor section, but I didn't see much slang. January 1954: _The Bunny Hop_ NATION'S newest dance craze is the Bunny Hop. Made up by (?) set, it was discovered by bandleader Ray Anthony (whose (?) of the "Dragnet" theme has made him the Mr. Big of bandleaders). January 1955, pg. 94 (From a 1954 story in the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE): _CAPITOL HILL "INTERNES"_ (...) The six are Congressional Internes, sponsored by the American Political Science Association. (Col. 2--ed.) Already, in the first year of the program, the Association's proteges have proved so capable that the APSA can't fill all the demands for them. -------------------------------------------------------- PIC I finished this, going through 1947 amd 1948 in the Library of Congress yesterday. January 1947, pg. 1 ad: "I'm the ideal gift for the man 'who has everything'." (Mr. Bartender--ed.) January 1947, pg. 105, col. 2: _"DUN IN THE BUN"_ is the password for the Pronto Pup, the latest thing in the hot dog department. By using a special flour-mix a batter can be made in which the frankfurter can be dunked before immersion in a deep fryer. Three minutes later, out comes the weenie cooked in its own jacket. Mustard and relish supplied by the management but you'd better bring your own red hot! (A "corn dog"?--ed.) April 1947, pg. 108, col. 3: Like Sam Goldwyn and Gregory Ratoff, Michael Curtiz (Curteez), veteran Hungarian-born movie director is renowned for his picturesque mishandling of English. A classic stems from his request for riderless mounts for a cavalry scene years ago, "Send me the empty horses," he bellowed. Once he berated a derelict assistant, "Next time I want a fool to do something, I go myself." Curtiz now heads his own film company and "The Unsuspected" will be his initial release. He won an Oscar in 1944 for "Casablanca." June 1947, col. 1: ...a genuine hillbilly or its modern equivalent, a "city billy." At first, "city billies" were resented as imposters cashing in on a good thing, but not for long. September 1947, pg. 32 (photo caption): RAY ELIOT, a "player's coach," and target of abuse from armchair quarterbacks, conferring with Illinois Captain Art Dufelmeier. January 1948, pg. 39: _FIVE PAYOFF SHOTS_ (The basketball shots are Jump Shot, Set Shot, Pivot Shot, The Layup, and The Foul. Dunk is not here--ed.) March 1948, pg. 73, col. 1: _LOX, STOCK AND BAGEL:_ During his hitch in the Army, Murray Schwartz found he had an I.Q. of 145 and an unsatisfied craving for Sunday breakfasts of lox, bagel, and cream cheese. Back home in Brooklyn, Schwartz put the two together and came up with a flourishing small business. April 1948, pg. 8, col. 3: Who's going to tell the "Snow Bunny" on your January cover that his long trip up was in vain--no toe straps? -------------------------------------------------------- MORNING GLORY SEEDS Not in OED, RHHDAS, CDS? From CLYDE, January 1965, pg. 77: _MORNING GLORY SEEDS_ _Consciousness Expanding Drugs_ (...) by ARTHUR ROBERTS What you are about to read is a true account of my own experiences with the mind-expanding, or consciousness expanding morning glory seeds. -------------------------------------------------------- MENSCH/MENCH See the 1930 citation below, from Jesse. From KOSHER AMERICANS (1929), pg. 80: I call dat _geler-en-ter, mench_ (learned man) an _emmes-e' Yid_ (true Jew). Pg. 101: "Hain't it strange dat I vonted to call you by dat name mineself. Anyole, I ham sure you are a _ge-ler-en-ter mench_ (learned man) in Hebraish, maybe?" -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: LOC doesn't have OED? Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:16:55 -0400 Size: 1430 URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 11 23:38:51 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:38:51 EDT Subject: Flash! magazine (1937) Message-ID: FLASH! magazine was born about the same time as PIC, but FLASH! covered "Negroes." I went through some of 1937 yesterday and found a "large apple" for New York City (the Big Apple dance was in 1937), but I don't know where that is now. 4 July 1937, pg. 18, col. 1: Dig this will ya? 9 August 1937. pg. 12, col. 2: Rug-cut? Well, that's a new name for the Lindy hop. Too many flyers passed the Atlantic bounding main under themselves since the Lindbergh hop--so, it's now simply Rug-cut. The name explains itself. The dance is what (Rug-cutting); who (Rug-cutters); damaged (Rug). 13 September 1937, pg. 12, col. 2: When the _COTTON_ Club opens in September, even sepias with the necessary dough-re-mi won't witness the (?) unless they're guest of some of the stars. 27 September 1937, pg. 8, col. 2: _COLLEGIATE RAMIFICATIONS_ the harbinger of the fall season, drop on us with a chill...not to mention the celebrated "swing sisters," "weed parties"... 4 October 1937, pg. 8, col. 3: ..."How's your box"... (A risque greeting, but copy is illegible--ed.) 25 October 1937, pg. 12, col. 2: ...mean an unwanted "Freebie" ticket back home... (M-W has 1942 for "freebie." The only citation that beats this is a 1928 "freeby" in the RHHDAS--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 12 00:13:21 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:13:21 EDT Subject: Broken Windows (1982) Message-ID: BROKEN WINDOWS--A theory that you go after small crime (broken windows), and it also helps against big crime. There's an article about it in today's NEW YORK TIMES op-ed (www.nytimes.com). See criticism of this on www.smartertimes.com. That web site claims that "broken windows" was coined in the March 1982 ATLANTIC MONTHLY by James Q. Wilson and George Kelling (www.theatlantic.com/politics/crime/windows.htm). I don't have my Barnhart New Words handy to check. SPIDER--A folk design that I saw in Poland was the "spider" web, above a table. I was told that there's a book in English on Polish folk art, but I didn't see any such book sold at the Polish museums. (Maybe I can hitch-hike to the Word Detective's pad in Ohio. Nobody bombs Ohio. I can help kill his spiders--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 11 14:01:53 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:01:53 +0800 Subject: enantiosemy In-Reply-To: <41100325.3208783900@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: At 4:51 PM +0100 9/6/01, Lynne Murphy wrote: >Not a dialect question, but a word history question. Hope you don't mind! > >I'm looking for earlier use of the word 'enantiosemy', which is a fancy way >of referring to "words that are their own opposites" (or the state of being >a word with incompatible meanings) (aka Janus words, auto-antonyms, >contronyms, antagonyms...). ...and antilogies, my favorite. (Sorry, nothing to offer on "enantiosemy".) larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 12 02:24:21 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:24:21 EDT Subject: "Terrorism anywhere is a threat to humanity everywhere" Message-ID: "TERRORISM ANYWHERE IS A THREAT TO HUMANITY EVERYWHERE" President Bill Clinton said, after Chechen-related bombings in Russia, that "acts of terror anywhere are a threat to humanity everywhere." This 18 September 1999 statement is at: http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/99091801.htm Did he coin it? Check for "anywhere" and "everywhere" and "threat" and "terror/terrorism" on the usual databases. -------------------------------------------------------- PLERK (PLAY & WORK) "Plerk" ("play" plus "work") was found on a web-brousing search just now. One site claims it was coined by Barry Stevens; another site claims it's by a professor named Ostrom. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 12 02:34:44 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:34:44 EDT Subject: "Terrorism/Injustice anywhere..." Message-ID: A web search came up with: "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." --Martin Luther King, Jr. This obviously inspired Bill Clinton's "acts of terror anywhere...," which he may or may not have coined. From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Wed Sep 12 10:59:14 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:59:14 +0100 Subject: enantiosemy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:01 pm +0800 Laurence Horn wrote: > ...and antilogies, my favorite. (Sorry, nothing to offer on > "enantiosemy".) Yes, I've got that one noted as well--although I have no idea why it would be anyone's favorite! I hope all is reasonably well in your life. I seem unable to keep myself away from the BBC site long enough to get any work done. Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Sep 12 11:06:37 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:06:37 -0400 Subject: New York City Message-ID: For the record, can we do a roll call of folks in New York City? Just a "here" would be good. Here. PS: I've been collecting links to personal accounts, home video and amateur photos at the link below. -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 12 14:47:58 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:47:58 EDT Subject: "Between the horse and the horseshoe" Message-ID: From the Village Voice web site (www.villagevoice.com/issues/0137/baard.php): _Immigrants Say They're Caught "Between the Horse and the Horseshoe"_ _Listening to the Arabs of New York_ by Erik Baard (I don't know if Fred Shapiro has this one...Ten years ago, they were caught "between Iraq and a hard place"--ed.) From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Wed Sep 12 15:23:43 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:23:43 -0400 Subject: Broken Windows (1982) In-Reply-To: <129.46ee88d.28d002a2@aol.com> Message-ID: Well, not yet at least. But one plane reached the Cleveland area, then veered southeastward toward our area in SE Ohio, then crossed into PA, where it crashed in a field. Too close for comfort. At 08:13 PM 9/11/01 -0400, Barry wrote: >(Maybe I can hitch-hike to the Word Detective's pad in Ohio. Nobody bombs >Ohio. I can help kill his spiders--ed.) _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 12 19:57:54 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:57:54 EDT Subject: World Trade Center/Centre Message-ID: World Trade Center or World Trade Centre? The official name is "Center." There are other WTCs around the world, so I added some key words. The numbers from Google.com: World Trade Center bombing--16,400 World Trade Centre bombing--1,240 World Trade Center terrorist attack--8,400 World Trade Centre terrorist attack--681 I also checked Rec.humor, the group that spread NASA (Need Another Seven Astronauts) and DIANA (Died In A Nasty Accident). There were some messages about how you can get to the top of the World Trade Center, but that was it. I don't know if there's a name for it, besides "gallows humor" or "offensive." From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Sep 12 19:56:43 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:56:43 -0400 Subject: New York City Message-ID: here. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Grant Barrett Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:06 am Subject: New York City > For the record, can we do a roll call of folks in New York City? > Just a > "here" would be good. > > Here. > > > > > > > PS: I've been collecting links to personal accounts, home video > and amateur > photos at the link below. > > -- > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > http://www.worldnewyork.org/ > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 12 22:50:05 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:50:05 EDT Subject: Circle of Silence Message-ID: NYU had a "Circle of Silence" today at 5 p.m. This is not in the OED. WorldCat didn't have many early citations. Here's one: The circle of silence: listening to the voices of autistic children: a keynote address delivered April 11, 1975 at Le Chateau Champlain, Montreal, Canada by Austin M. Des Lauriers Devereux Foundation, 1975 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Sep 13 01:06:21 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:06:21 -0500 Subject: Dictionary of 1913 Baseball and Other Lingo Message-ID: For those who may be interested--- I have privately published a limited edition of the following book: _Dictionary of 1913 Baseball And Other Lingo_, volume 1: A-F. Primarily from the baseball columns of the San Francisco Bulletin, Feb. - May 1913. 208 pp.; soft cover. cost. $20 + $5.00 (five) for shipping and handling. For this first printing I have run off 110 copies--10 for my personal use and 100 for sale. I suppose the material will be of interest to lexicographers and word researchers. I have intentionally kept the number of copies low, and do not expect the demand to warrant a second printing. In any case, I would like to complete volumes 2 and 3 (2002, 2003) before considering a second printing. The book lists the terms I find of interest in the 1913 S.F. Bulletin baseball articles and then presents the examples in context. This work started as a careful search for the earliest attestations of "jazz" (used in a baseball context before a music one) and then broadened out as a whole variety of interesting baseball terms and expressions came to my attention. Upon request, I could present 1 1/2 pages from the preface that explain the project in more detail. For now I would say that I have aimed to produce a scholarly treatment (with the examples of attestations and their exact references). Checks should be made payable to the University of Missouri-Rolla and mailed to me: Gerald Cohen, G-4 Humanities Social Sciences Building, University of Missouri-Rolla, Rolla MO 65401. The project is non-profit; all funds remaining after publication costs are met will be donated to a scholarship fund at the University of Missouri-Rolla. ---Gerald Cohen Professor of Foreign Languages research specialty: etymology From slangman at PACBELL.NET Thu Sep 13 01:29:45 2001 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:29:45 -0700 Subject: Dictionary of 1913 Baseball and Other Lingo Message-ID: Great! Hold one for me - check will be in the mail tomorrow. Best, Tom Dalzell Gerald Cohen wrote: > For those who may be interested--- > > I have privately published a limited edition of the following book: > > _Dictionary of 1913 Baseball And Other Lingo_, volume 1: A-F. > Primarily from the baseball columns of the San Francisco Bulletin, > Feb. - May 1913. 208 pp.; soft cover. cost. $20 + $5.00 (five) for > shipping and handling. > > For this first printing I have run off 110 copies--10 for my > personal use and 100 for sale. I suppose the material will be of > interest to lexicographers and word researchers. I have intentionally > kept the number of copies low, and do not expect the demand to > warrant a second printing. In any case, I would like to complete > volumes 2 and 3 (2002, 2003) before considering a second printing. > > The book lists the terms I find of interest in the 1913 S.F. > Bulletin baseball articles and then presents the examples in context. > > This work started as a careful search for the earliest > attestations of "jazz" (used in a baseball context before a music > one) and then broadened out as a whole variety of interesting > baseball terms and expressions came to my attention. > > Upon request, I could present 1 1/2 pages from the preface that > explain the project in more detail. For now I would say that I have > aimed to produce a scholarly treatment (with the examples of > attestations and their exact references). > > Checks should be made payable to the University of Missouri-Rolla > and mailed to me: Gerald Cohen, G-4 Humanities Social Sciences > Building, University of Missouri-Rolla, Rolla MO 65401. The project > is non-profit; all funds remaining after publication costs are met > will be donated to a scholarship fund at the University of > Missouri-Rolla. > > ---Gerald Cohen > Professor of Foreign Languages > research specialty: etymology From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 13 03:46:39 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:46:39 EDT Subject: "Revenge is a dish best served cold" Message-ID: REVENGE IS A DISH BEST SERVED COLD This is the title of an opinion in today's LOS ANGELES TIMES, 12 September 2001, pg. B-9. It's also the slogan of a new movie, DINNER RUSH (www.DinnerRush.com). It's not in my Stevenson book of quotations. It goes back to about 1986 on the Dow Jones database, where it was cited as an old Sicilian proverb. -------------------------------------------------------- VEG-CITY DINER I walked past this place, which is at both 55 West 14th Street and 37 Third Avenue. CHICKEN MOCKNUGGETS--Soy Nuggets Served With Honey Mustard Dipping Sauce...4.95 TLT--Tofu Bacon, Lettuce and Tomato With Nayonaise(R)...4.75 PHONY ISLAND CORN DOG--Soy Dog Corn Battered And Fried With Mustard...3.25 -------------------------------------------------------- IRON SUSHI CHEF Located at 440 Third Avenue. A drum roll, please... BOSTON ROLL--Shrimp, Cucumber, Avocado, Lettuces, Mayonnaise with Tobiko...5.75 CALIFORNIA ROLL--Mock Crab Avocado...3.95 ALASKA ROLL--Salmon, Avocado, Cucumber Inside-Out...4.95 PHILADELPHIA ROLL--Salmon, Cream Cheese, Avocado, Cucumber Tempura Batter & Scallion...5.75 TORO (NEGI) ROLL--Tuna Belly & Chopped Scallion...5.75 YELLOWTAIL SPECIAL ROLL--Yellowtail Salmon Caviar & Avocade Inside-Out...6.50 NEW YORK ROLL--Shrimp, Salmon, Avocado, Cucumber Inside-Out w. Tobiko...6.75 CALAMARI ROLL--Fried Batter Squid Avocado, Lettuce, Cucumber, Inside-Out w. Fish Roe...6.95 DYNAMITE ROLL--Spicy White Tuna Wrapped w. Avocado, Cucumber, Aspargus & Fish Roe...7.75 EBI TEMPURA ROLL--Fried Batter Shrimp w. Avocado & Cucumber, Inside-Out w. Tobiko...7.75 PARK AVENUE ROLL (No Rice)--Salmon, Salmon Caviar, Mock Crab & Radish Sprout Wrapped in a Cucumber...7.75 DRAGON ROLL--Eel Wrapped w. Avocado Containing Fish Roe. Cucumber & Radish Sprout...7.95 VOLCANO ROLL--Spicy Tuna w. Flying Fish Roe & Avocado on the Outside...8.75 ELEPHANT EYE ROLL (No Rice)--Squid Stuffed w. Eel, Salmon, Shrimp & Seaweed...9.75 RAINBOW ROLL--Tuna, Salmon, Yellowtail, Mock Crab Meat, Avocado, Cucumber, Asparagus & Fish Roe...12.75 SPIDER ROLL--Soft Shell Crab Cucumber Lettuce Inside-Out w. Tobiko...13.75 CHRISTMAS ROLL--White Tuna Wrapped w. Seaweed, Avocado, Fish Roe...13.95 CHUKA SALAD--Green Wakame Seaweed Marinated w. Sesame Dressing...4.95 KANI SALAD--Crab Meat, Mayonnaise, Flying Fish Roe & Cucumber...5.95 SAKE SALAD--Salmon & Avocado, Radish & Pickle Served w. Sweet Soybean Paste Dressing...5.95 YOKAN (Red Bean Cake)...2.50 (PERSONAL MISC.: My trip next week was NOT canceled...A woman I met in Japan called to ask if I was O.K. I was in Japan?) From douglas at NB.NET Thu Sep 13 05:05:02 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:05:02 -0400 Subject: "Revenge is a dish best served cold" In-Reply-To: <7e.1ab592fd.28d18620@aol.com> Message-ID: >REVENGE IS A DISH BEST SERVED COLD This is said to be from Pierre Ambroise Francois Choderios de LaClos, _Les Liaisons Dangereuses_ (1782): "La vengeance est un plat qui se mange froid". -- Doug Wilson From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM Thu Sep 13 05:01:49 2001 From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:01:49 -0400 Subject: "Revenge is a dish best served cold" In-Reply-To: <7e.1ab592fd.28d18620@aol.com> Message-ID: Sicilian? Hardly. Try Klingon ‹ from 1982 in STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN, in which Khan (Ricardo Montalban) taunts Kirk: "Ah Kirk, my old friend. Do you know the Klingon proverb that tells us revenge is a dish that is best served cold? It is very cold in space." I'm sure that I heard it before this, but this is the first time I remember it. I know, I know; geek check. On 9/12/01 11:46 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > REVENGE IS A DISH BEST SERVED COLD > > This is the title of an opinion in today's LOS ANGELES TIMES, 12 September > 2001, pg. B-9. It's also the slogan of a new movie, DINNER RUSH > (www.DinnerRush.com). > It's not in my Stevenson book of quotations. It goes back to about 1986 on > the Dow Jones database, where it was cited as an old Sicilian proverb. -- Bob Haas Department of English High Point University "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Sep 13 08:34:51 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:34:51 +0100 Subject: Dictionary of 1913 Baseball and Other Lingo Message-ID: Gerald, Like Tom Dalzell, I'm in the queue for one of these. Please reserve and I shall get the requisite dollars in the post. Jonathon Green From transedit.h at TELIA.COM Thu Sep 13 10:21:30 2001 From: transedit.h at TELIA.COM (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:21:30 +0200 Subject: Revenge... Message-ID: According to Petit Robert, Dictionnaire de la langue francaise, this is a Corsican saying: "La vengeance est un plat qui se mange froid" Original message from Barry Popik: >REVENGE IS A DISH BEST SERVED COLD > This is the title of an opinion in today's LOS ANGELES TIMES, 12 September 2001, pg. B-9. It's also the slogan of a new movie, DINNER RUSH (www.DinnerRush.com). > It's not in my Stevenson book of quotations. It goes back to about 1986 on the Dow Jones database, where it was cited as an old Sicilian proverb. Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From douglas at NB.NET Thu Sep 13 11:32:22 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:32:22 -0400 Subject: Revenge... In-Reply-To: <003d01c13c3d$dd96be40$37c8143e@oemcomputer> Message-ID: >According to Petit Robert, Dictionnaire de la langue francaise, this is a >Corsican saying: "La vengeance est un plat qui se mange froid" A quick glance at the Web shows the following purported 'ethnicities' for this 'proverb': "English" [supposedly according to Mencken] "French" "Spanish" "Italian" [apparently the name of a 1971 movie "La Vendetta e un Piatto Che Si Serve Freddo"] "Sicilian" [apparently claimed in a Puzo novel] "Arabian" "Chinese" "Afghanistan" "Apache" "Klingon" "Dwarvish" I found it quoted once in Italian, supposedly from a novel (unnamed). I found it in English supposedly quoted/translated from a few different 19th century books. There are also variants with "revenge"/"vengeance" replaced with "tuna", "pizza", "Jello", "American beer", etc. I presume, in Robert, the 'Corsican saying' has been translated into French, without the original being quoted? Or is this from the Frenchified part of Corsica? -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Sep 13 01:31:28 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:31:28 +0800 Subject: Revenge... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010913065644.00b085e0@nb.net> Message-ID: At 7:32 AM -0400 9/13/01, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>According to Petit Robert, Dictionnaire de la langue francaise, this is a >>Corsican saying: "La vengeance est un plat qui se mange froid" > >A quick glance at the Web shows the following purported 'ethnicities' for >this 'proverb': > >"English" [supposedly according to Mencken] >"French" >"Spanish" >"Italian" [apparently the name of a 1971 movie "La Vendetta e un Piatto Che >Si Serve Freddo"] >"Sicilian" [apparently claimed in a Puzo novel] It's cited (as an old Sicilian proverb) in The Godfather (1972), although that obviously doesn't prove provenance. larry From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Sep 13 12:25:05 2001 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:25:05 -0400 Subject: Dictionary of 1913 Baseball and Other Lingo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Professor Cohen, Correction to my last e-mail -- of course, you've provided the address to send the money to. Our librarian will send you the check! Thanks, Joanne From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Sep 13 16:04:07 2001 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:04:07 -0700 Subject: Kozakiewics gesture In-Reply-To: <00c301c13a1e$3d8f0ea0$d1c9143e@oemcomputer> Message-ID: --- Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote: > Jim Landau wrote: > > >From the description, sounds like the same thing as > the "bra d'honneur". > > Yes, very much so: > "Bras d'honneur: Geste injurieux (simulacre > d'erection)" says Nouveau Petit Robert, Dictionnaire > de la langue francaise. > It is described by Genevi�ve Calbris and Jacques > Montredon in Des gestes et des mots pour le dire, > DIC Mini-dictionnaires, Cl� International, 1986: > "...made by placing one hand at the crook of the > opposite arm and lifting - or extending - the > latter, fist balled, to figure the male member in > erection." > Jan Ivarsson > jan.ivarsson at transedit.st Sorry for the misspelling. I personnaly know the gest goes back at least to the mid-60's, although I didn't associate the name "bras d'honneur" with it until the late 70's. ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Sep 13 17:03:41 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:03:41 -0400 Subject: "Revenge is a dish best served cold" Message-ID: Being an old-fashioned guy, as many of you have long suspected, I have checked this in books. Mencken has: "English proverb, not recorded before the XIX century", under "revenge". (I had forgotten what a fascinating book this is, though I have owned a copy since I was in high school. Among his other quotations under this head are Revenge is the poor delight of little minds. Juvenal. A man that studieth revenge keeps his own wounds green. Bacon. Delay in vengeance gives a heavier blow. John Ford. Who'll sleep in safety that has done me wrong? Thomas Otway. In taking revenge a man is but even with his enemy, but in passing it over he is superior. Thomas Fuller. The quotations from Ford and Otway undoubtedly come from plays -- Mencken doesn't specify -- and need to be evaluated according to the character who speaks them. The others need to be evaluated also, but are at least offered as the writer's own view.) But I digress. I didn't find this in the historical dictionaries of English proverbs by Tilley or Whiting. Other than the classics and the bible, Mencken's sources are largely English and American. But it's not in W. Meider's recent Prentice-Hall Dictionary of World Proverbs. The Oxford Dictionary of English Proverbs, 3rd ed., 1970, has the following: Revenge is a dish that should be eaten cold. 1620. Shelton, [transl. of Don] Quix. . . . Revenge is not good in cold blood. 1885. C. Lowe, Bismarck. . . . [Bismarck] had defended Olmutz, it is true, but . . . with a secret resolution to "eat the dish of revenge cold instead of hot". 1895. J. Payn In Mark. Ov. . . . Invective can be used at any time; like vengeance, it is a dish that can be eaten cold. I notice that none of these quotations actually illustrate the heading, and indeed the first contradicts it. This is perhaps evidence that F. P Wilson or his predecessor was familiar with a European proverb in that form? I hope that this message has not been sent twice. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 13 18:26:22 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:26:22 EDT Subject: Complete Western Cookbook ((1964) Message-ID: LIFE IN NEW YORK: Last night, there was a bomb scare in the Empire State Building. Just now, there was a bomb scare at Grand Central Terminal. The New York Public Library (where I write this) was closed yesterday and is on reduced hours today. I work at Parking Violations. Our emergency headquarters is located at the World Trade Center. The calendar unit has the same message, then says that the mailbox was full. If you've never been to New York, this is not a normal day or week. -------------------------------------------------------- THE COMPLETE WESTERN COOKBOOK: THE GOURMET'S GUIDE TO THE LAND BEYOND THE PECOS by Betty Johnson A. S. Barnes & Company, NY 1964 For some reason, the NYPL catalog has this book under "cookery." Not "cookery-southern" or "cookery-southwest." Just "cookery." No "chimichangas," even though New Mexican dishes are on pages 12-16. Here goes: Pg. 13: Green Chili...Nixtamal (Lime Hominy). Pg. 14: Carne con Chili Colorado (Meat with Red Chili). Pg. 20: Squirrel Pot Pie. Pg. 22: Chicken Bernalillo. Pg. 25: Mexican Chicken. Pg. 33: Rancho Sauce. Pg. 51: Dinette Cake. Pg. 55: Lazy-Daisy Cake. Pg. 94: Chocolate Indians. Pg. 94: Coconut Brownies. Pg. 99: Raggedy Ann Cereal Bars. Pg. 110: Sail Boats. (Cheese, pickles, cucumbers--ed.) Pg. 117: Armenian Beaurack. Pg. 128: Rancher's Eggs. Pg. 128: Fried Eggs Mexican. Pg. 129: Hobo Breakfast Eggs. Pg. 151: Italian Bread Sticks. Pg. 166: Butterfly Salad. Pg. 187: Mazetti. Pg. 200: Jiffy Cheesefurters. Pg. 200: Rancho Rings. Pg. 201: Beanie Weenies. (Crackpot letter to the New York Times attached--ed.) -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Bapopik at aol.com Subject: World Day Against Terrorism Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:28:41 EDT Size: 1482 URL: From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Sep 13 21:57:06 2001 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:57:06 -0700 Subject: "Revenge is a dish best served cold" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010913001325.00b0d830@nb.net> Message-ID: --- "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > >REVENGE IS A DISH BEST SERVED COLD > > This is said to be from Pierre Ambroise Francois > Choderios de LaClos, _Les > Liaisons Dangereuses_ (1782): "La vengeance est un > plat qui se mange froid". > > -- Doug Wilson I did a search through Les Liaisons Dangereuses for the words "revanche", "vengeance", "plat", "mange", and "froid" but could find nothing even remotely resembling this phrase. ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 13 22:33:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:33:45 EDT Subject: FLASH! magazine slang (1938) Message-ID: From FLASH! magazine (Washington, D.C.), 21 February 1938, pg. 11, col. 1: _"Jolly's Jottings"_ by William "Jolly" Fosythe, Jr. WHEREIN YOUR COLUMNIST ATTEMPTS TO GIVE A COMPREHENSIVE STANDARD GLOSSARY AND COMPENDIUM OF COMMONLY USED WORDS AND PHRASES GIVING THE SPELLING MINUS THE ETYMOLOGY ACCOMPANIED BY SYNONYMS AND ILLUSTRATIVE EXAMPLES WHERE NECESSARY. DITHERS--In the well known quandry, usually over the female of the species. SIR STORK--A phrase used commonly by columnists to describe the long legged bird who is supposed to bring the heirs or bundles from heaven. BIB'N TUCKER--Full dress suit or tuxedo. BLUE CHIP CLASS--Supposedly referring to the uppity or aristocractic set of sepia America, also commonly called the CAVIAR SET AND TOP DRAWER SET. Usually of the front-running-champagne-appetite class with the price of root pop. FREEBIE--Something that does not cost the recipient anything. Usually applied when referring to drinks or eats. ON THE TURN--Out for an evening of unlimited sport that includes all of the spots that are most frequented, with any hour the next morning seeing you home. CHICK--Usually applied to a member of the female species, however harmless it is often misconstrued. MESSY CHICK--A young lady who orders cocktails with pretty names and then spills them all over your suit, also one who hugs every man she meets at every cocktail lounge and attempts to talk and act cute after having had the first three ounces of a 16 oz. beer and winds up the evening terribly sick and still you are supposed to like it. UNHEP--Any individual who impresses one as not being a person who really knows just what it is all about, very briefly a tenderfoot or greenhorn. UNHEP CHICK--See CHICK and UNHEP, combine them and yours' bound to have a mess. SUB DEB--One of these sweet young things who just isn't of age but whom the older boys will be "gunning" for on the day of the coming out party. DEBBIE--Commonly called debutante, and is one who had followed the usual ritual concerning decorum and mannerisms prior to the coming out party and is now definitely in circulation for the desirable company, but her desires usually run toward the older gentry with cash. MATRON--A married woman, saying too much about them is not too safe so I'll lay off. GANDER--Meaning to look, and look real hard so as to repeat the details to the first news-hawk you meet. WEED--Between New York and Washington commonly called REEFER or TEA. A cigarette composed of the marihuana weed, which produces weird effects upon the smoker, that he terms, "being sent." BIGGIE--A leader or ruler of his particular domain or field. DIGIT BARON--A biggie in the business of "numbers" usually possessing a fair amount of wealth. WATERING PLACES--THe most popular eat, drink and dine places along any stem, usually catering especially to satiation of the thirst. COLLAR--Meaning to understand. (Ex: DO you collar?) JIVE--Sometimes spelled JIBE; meaning to dwell intently upon an effusive exhortation along some particular line minus sincerity. MEDICO--A Doctor of Medicine. PASHED UP--Quite in the dithers over a lady of your choice whose indifference keeps you awake nites and causes you to drink excessively. KILLER DILER--Favorite expression of musicians when one of their tunes appeals to the ear in an unusual manner that has a tendency to cause excessive jubilance among the dancers and listeners. RUG CUT--A newly coined expression describing the apparently savage machination of the latest edition of the revision of the popular "Lindy Hop." DIG MY PAD--Go home to my bed. STACH MY FRAME--See DIG MY PAD. BIFFER--Young lady who may have all the education, money and personality in the world but she is ever so homely. SOLID--An expression that eliminates the use od superfluous words to indicate that everything is exceedingly well with the speaker. RAG--A newspaper, usually referred to as a SHEET. SWINGEROO--A dance that is a "killer-diller" in every sense of the word both musically and pulchritudinally, not to mention the liquid phase. UNHITCH--Same as RENO-VATE, meaning to get a new lease on life from the divorse courts, and freedom from your wife. LUSH--Meaning liquor, thus a LUSH HOUND is the same a habitual inebriate. VIPER--One who smokes the habit-forming WEED. DIG YOU--See you later on. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Sep 13 23:34:42 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:34:42 -0400 Subject: Cracker Dictionary, 1830 Message-ID: One of the inducements to pass my spare time in reading 180+ year old newspapers has been that the crimes, follies and horrors related in them are far beyond preventing, assuaging or even regretting. This was never more true than now. >From the New-York Evening Post, May 18, 1830, p. 2, col. 2. Confusion worse confounded. -- The Augusta Courier contains a specimen of a "Cracker Dictionary," which makes us acquainted with some very curious terms in use among the Southern Cockneys. At the head of the list we find the following words: -- Bodaciously, Catawampously, Contraption, &c. The definitions, in some instances, convey to us of the north a not very clear idea of the meaning. "Ramsquaddled," for instance, is said to mean "Rowed up salt river." *** I note that Bodaciously is in Dictionary of Americanisms from 1846, so that unless OED -- which I didn't check -- has an earlier date, this is a 16 year antedating. Catawampously is in Dictionary of American English from 1830. Ramsquaddled is in Dictionary of Americanisms from 1830, also. The phrase "rowed up salt river" is in Dictionary of Americanisms from 1830, and is there defined as "to overcome, to use up a person bodaciously". I don't have access to the Augusta Courier from May, 1830. It might be interesting to see what other terms appear there. I suppose that the fact that three of these words have been first found in 1830 may mean that that they were spread by this "cracker dictionary". GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Sep 13 23:39:08 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:39:08 -0400 Subject: "Recessions uncover what auditors do not" Message-ID: Barry recently offered: > -------------------------------------------------------- > BABY WEATHER (continued from "old man weather") > > From Femi Oke, my favorite CNN International weathergirl, on a > recent broadcast: > > That's classic baby weather--wet and windy. > Some of us may remember that in Ulysses, Simon Dedalus, on the way to the cemetery with Paddy Dignam's funeral, says "The sky's as uncertain as a baby's bottom." GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From douglas at NB.NET Fri Sep 14 02:03:19 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:03:19 -0400 Subject: "Revenge is a dish best served cold" In-Reply-To: <20010913215706.17637.qmail@web9708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > This is said to be from Pierre Ambroise François > > Choderlos de Laclos, _Les > > Liaisons Dangereuses_ (1782): "La vengeance est un > > plat qui se mange froid". >I did a search through Les >Liaisons Dangereuses for the words "revanche", >"vengeance", "plat", "mange", and "froid" but could >find nothing even remotely resembling this phrase. I looked too: nothing. Another error, I guess, which isn't that unusual on the Web. Possibly the 'proverb' was employed in a stage or movie version or whatever, much later. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 14 11:14:41 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:14:41 EDT Subject: Pink Slip Party (1939) Message-ID: Life's a mess. I guess I'll have to go into work in the Bronx. No phone call. No message on the calendar unit phone. Nothing on the web site. Of course, knowing this city, it'll probably be closed and I won't get paid for showing up. My Keytronic keyboard is all messed up today and doesn't register certain keys. ------------------------------------------------------- PINK SLIP PARTY From FLASH!, 15 February 1939, pg. 25, col. 1: WPA OPTIMISM--That's what we called it when we heard about the "PINK SLIPS" party the lads threw up in Harlem who had received their (Form 403) PINK SLIPS, which meant the end of their project jobs. -------------------------------------------------------- BUNNY HUG From FLASH!, 3 January 1938, pg. 18, col. 2: SWING SESSIONS, an outgrowth of the currently popular music played by the "jam units" have outmoded to an extent the former type of close "bunny-hug" dancing that was the bane of frat house hops, as in upper left photo. The second panel illurates a modified version of the "bunny-hug," bordering more on the line of the "love-lock." -------------------------------------------------------- PANSY, GAY FLASH!, 19 April 1938, pg. 13, col. 2: OCTOBER 1937 "Pansys" invade most frequented nite spots. Today pansy parade moves Westward, finds fertile field in Pgh. nite clubs. (Also in column in "At present Jack Greenless is in seclusion in one of Philly's better hospital wards as an interne"--ed.) FLASH!, 3 May 1938, pg. 28, col. 2: DECEMBER 1937 All Philly is at present agog over the Penn Relay Carnival on the 29th and 30th with the Gays, Alphas, and the Do-Ki-Chi's entertaining the visiting socialites. -------------------------------------------------------- SWINGCERT From FLASH!, 21 June 1938, pg. 19, col. 2: _THOUSANDS JAM RANDALL_ _ISLAND FOR "SWINGCERT"_ SWING ADDICTS FROM THE CRADLE TO THE HOME FOR THE INFIRM had their fill of "killer dillers," "solid senders," "slap," "rush," and "lush" ditties when New York's radio station WNEW and Martin Block staged their first open-air swing carnival. -------------------------------------------------------- BOOGIE WOOGIE From FLASH!, 15 November 1938, pg. 23, col. 2: The ROLLING JITTERBUGS attempted all sorts of antics while on skates, including the popular "shag," "lindy hop," and the current sensation, the "boogie woogie." -------------------------------------------------------- PIG MEAT, BUGGY From FLASH!, letters, 1 November 1938, pg. 4, col. 1: Please if possible raise the standard of your magazine by eliminating such words as "pig meat" and other "buggy" material. -------------------------------------------------------- CARTOON CAPTIONS FLASH!, 24 January 1938, pg. 19, col. 2: "I'LL SHOW YOU WHO WEAR THE PANTS AROUND HERE!!" (Wife to husband--ed.) FLASH!, 3 May 1938, pg. 35: "BOY! WHAT'A FANNY" (Two children looking at a woman's rear--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- HOT-DOG EATING CONTEST? Photo caption from FLASH!, 17 January 1938, pg. 12, col. 1: JACK PARKER OF PITTSBURGH holds some sort of gustatorial record. He ate forty-four hot dogs and drank seven glasses of beer at a Pgh. polticial meeting some few weeks past, and the following day he ate fifteen more hot dogs and drank five bottles of Pepsi-Cola for a chaser. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 14 11:22:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:22:45 EDT Subject: "The Second Pearl Harbor" Message-ID: Another "Second Pearl Harbor." (Attached.) I hope it doesn't star Ben Affleck. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Avram Piltch" Subject: About Today - The Second Pearl Harbor? Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:17:03 EDT Size: 4901 URL: From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Sep 14 11:42:03 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:42:03 -0400 Subject: The Pile Message-ID: Workers at the site of the World Trade Center are calling the debris "The Pile," according to NPR this morning. -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Sep 14 14:59:08 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:59:08 EDT Subject: ACCENT: Re: Lines Overheard ... Message-ID: Could the speaker have possibly meant ACCENT in the sense of 'focus'? That is to say, the speaker didn't like the direction that it appeared that the teacher was taking the course in? Lots of people use ACCENT that way. In a message dated 8/18/2001 7:15:47 AM, lanehart at ARCHES.UGA.EDU writes: << I guess we haven't made as much progress as we'd like to think. --SL >Subject: Lines Overheard in the Starbucks, 08/16/01 > > >"The only reason I am dropping the class is because of the teacher. I >don't like her accent." > >******************************* > >> From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Fri Sep 14 15:12:32 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:12:32 -0400 Subject: Pink Slip Party (1939) In-Reply-To: <132.18593c2.28d340a2@aol.com> Message-ID: Barry, I wish you wouldn't complain about your personal problems during this trying time. Life IS a mess this week, but for all of us--and thousands of ordinary New Yorkers also aren't getting paid this week, and may not be for a long, long time. Please, cool it. At 07:14 AM 9/14/01 -0400, you wrote: > Life's a mess. > I guess I'll have to go into work in the Bronx. No phone call. No > message on the calendar unit phone. Nothing on the web site. Of course, > knowing this city, it'll probably be closed and I won't get paid for > showing up. > My Keytronic keyboard is all messed up today and doesn't register > certain keys. > >------------------------------------------------------- >PINK SLIP PARTY > > From FLASH!, 15 February 1939, pg. 25, col. 1: > >WPA OPTIMISM--That's what we called it when we heard about the "PINK >SLIPS" party the lads threw up in Harlem who had received their (Form 403) >PINK SLIPS, which meant the end of their project jobs. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >BUNNY HUG > > From FLASH!, 3 January 1938, pg. 18, col. 2: > > SWING SESSIONS, an outgrowth of the currently popular music played by > the "jam units" have outmoded to an extent the former type of close > "bunny-hug" dancing that was the bane of frat house hops, as in upper > left photo. The second panel illurates a modified version of the > "bunny-hug," bordering more on the line of the "love-lock." > >-------------------------------------------------------- >PANSY, GAY > >FLASH!, 19 April 1938, pg. 13, col. 2: OCTOBER 1937 "Pansys" invade most >frequented nite spots. Today pansy parade moves Westward, finds fertile >field in Pgh. nite clubs. >(Also in column in "At present Jack Greenless is in seclusion in one of >Philly's better hospital wards as an interne"--ed.) > >FLASH!, 3 May 1938, pg. 28, col. 2: DECEMBER 1937 All Philly is at >present agog over the Penn Relay Carnival on the 29th and 30th with the >Gays, Alphas, and the Do-Ki-Chi's entertaining the visiting socialites. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >SWINGCERT > > From FLASH!, 21 June 1938, pg. 19, col. 2: > >_THOUSANDS JAM RANDALL_ >_ISLAND FOR "SWINGCERT"_ >SWING ADDICTS FROM THE CRADLE TO THE HOME FOR THE INFIRM had their fill of >"killer dillers," "solid senders," "slap," "rush," and "lush" ditties when >New York's radio station WNEW and Martin Block staged their first open-air >swing carnival. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >BOOGIE WOOGIE > > From FLASH!, 15 November 1938, pg. 23, col. 2: > > The ROLLING JITTERBUGS attempted all sorts of antics while on skates, > including the popular "shag," "lindy hop," and the current sensation, the > "boogie woogie." > >-------------------------------------------------------- >PIG MEAT, BUGGY > > From FLASH!, letters, 1 November 1938, pg. 4, col. 1: > > Please if possible raise the standard of your magazine by eliminating > such words as "pig meat" and other "buggy" material. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >CARTOON CAPTIONS > >FLASH!, 24 January 1938, pg. 19, col. 2: "I'LL SHOW YOU WHO WEAR THE >PANTS AROUND HERE!!" (Wife to husband--ed.) > >FLASH!, 3 May 1938, pg. 35: "BOY! WHAT'A FANNY" (Two children looking >at a woman's rear--ed.) > >-------------------------------------------------------- >HOT-DOG EATING CONTEST? > > Photo caption from FLASH!, 17 January 1938, pg. 12, col. 1: > > JACK PARKER OF PITTSBURGH holds some sort of gustatorial record. He > ate forty-four hot dogs and drank seven glasses of beer at a Pgh. > polticial meeting some few weeks past, and the following day he ate > fifteen more hot dogs and drank five bottles of Pepsi-Cola for a chaser. _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 14 04:19:58 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:19:58 +0800 Subject: ACCENT: Re: Lines Overheard ... In-Reply-To: <2d.10fffb9a.28d3753c@aol.com> Message-ID: At 10:59 AM -0400 9/14/01, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >Could the speaker have possibly meant ACCENT in the sense of 'focus'? That is >to say, the speaker didn't like the direction that it appeared that the >teacher was taking the course in? Lots of people use ACCENT that way. > >In a message dated 8/18/2001 7:15:47 AM, lanehart at ARCHES.UGA.EDU writes: > ><< I guess we haven't made as much progress as we'd like to think. --SL > >>Subject: Lines Overheard in the Starbucks, 08/16/01 >> >> >>"The only reason I am dropping the class is because of the teacher. I > >don't like her accent." > > The only way I can take the above is the phonological one; I can't imagine in being used anywhere I've lived to refer to the content, focus, or direction of the course "she" teaches. Larry From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 14 16:31:12 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:31:12 -0400 Subject: Real McCoy In-Reply-To: <918b72918c11.918c11918b72@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: Does anyone know of any sources of discussion or documentation about the etymology and origin of "the real McCoy," other than sources mentioned in the entry in the Historical Dictionary of Slang? I already have copies of the Peter Tamony files on this expression. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 14 16:31:26 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:31:26 -0400 Subject: Civil War In-Reply-To: <918b72918c11.918c11918b72@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: Does anyone know of any books or articles or dictionaries that discuss the origin of the term "Civil War," in specific reference to the American conflict of 1861-65? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Fri Sep 14 17:00:03 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:00:03 -0400 Subject: Cracker Dictionary, 1830 Message-ID: As a Kentucky boy, I have long heard the story of how Henry Clay was rowed up Salt River as he was distractedly working on an important political speech. From http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/1998/Aug-23-Sun-1998/opinion/8051260.html >>The story is that during his 1832 campaign against Andrew Jackson, Henry Clay hired a boatman to take him up the Ohio River for an important speech in Louisville. The wily fellow, an ardent Jacksonian, rowed Clay up the Salt River instead. Clay missed the speech and lost the election. In their dictionary of word and phrase origins, William and Mary Morris say the story is probably phony -- Clay was no dummy, and the modest Salt River is no Ohio -- but why let a few facts interfere with a good story? Clay came up short, and when he looked for the rogue, the boatman turned up missing. << The 1830 dating of the term, of course, undercuts the Clay story. John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: George Thompson [SMTP:george.thompson at NYU.EDU] > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:35 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Cracker Dictionary, 1830 > > The definitions, in some instances, convey to us of > the north a not very clear idea of the meaning. "Ramsquaddled," for > instance, is said to mean "Rowed up salt river." *** > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 14 05:10:41 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:10:41 +0800 Subject: Real McCoy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Does anyone know of any sources of discussion or documentation about the >etymology and origin of "the real McCoy," other than sources mentioned in >the entry in the Historical Dictionary of Slang? I already have copies >of the Peter Tamony files on this expression. > Fred, does the RHHDAS entry (which I don't have on me) entertain a premise concerning a derivation from a Scottish term for a high quality whisky which was then exported to the US and applied (the term, not the whisky) to "an outstanding boxer whose name happened to be McCoy"? So Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, at least. Partridge is involved in this story, so there may be the usual emphasis on the Fable part. larry From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Sep 14 17:48:03 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:48:03 EDT Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? Message-ID: In a message dated 9/14/2001 12:17:44 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << >>"The only reason I am dropping the class is because of the teacher. I > >don't like her accent." > > The only way I can take the above is the phonological one; I can't imagine in being used anywhere I've lived to refer to the content, focus, or direction of the course "she" teaches. Larry >> Think again, Larry, about what people do in actual conversations! See NEW OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH, s.v. ACCENT, "3. a special or particular emphasis: _the accent is on participation_." I don't have time to do a web search, but I'd guess one could find examples of this pretty easily. I will grant you that general ACCENT is not used this way without some explicitly defining context. However, as I'm sure Larry knows (!), a snippet of conversation divorced from the rest of the conversation may well divorce the snippet from the explicitly defining context that was implicitly understood by the participants in the conversation. I'd even go farther and suggest that, even if this sense of ACCENT had not been explicitly defined by the parties in the conversation, the speaker could well have assumed that it was implicit (if she believed that her friend would not believe that mere pronunciation would drive her away from a class). I'd even go farther than that and suggest that, given that the above definition of ACCENT is common to native speakers of American English, the speaker was at worst making a very low-level performance error such as is frequently common in actual conversation, i.e., using a word in one of its "marked" senses in a context where it would be most likely to be construed in its unmarked or default sense. Finally, I'm not totally sure that for anyone other than a linguist ACCENT is so strongly associated with 'pronunciation' as its default meaning. From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Fri Sep 14 17:59:03 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:59:03 +0100 Subject: Real McCoy Message-ID: There is a longish (eight-page) essay on this term by Partridge in _From Sanskrit to Brazil_ (1952), reprinted in _Eric Partridge in His Own Words_ (1980). A quick glance sugegsts that he seems to cover most of the theories (boxer, bootlegger, Scotch whisky, etc.) , and differentiates between UK Mackay and US McCoy. If anyone is sufficiently interested, I'd be happy to scan it in and post it. Jonathon Green From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 14 06:03:12 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:03:12 +0800 Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:48 PM -0400 9/14/01, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >In a message dated 9/14/2001 12:17:44 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > ><< >>"The only reason I am dropping the class is because of the teacher. I >> >don't like her accent." >> > >The only way I can take the above is the phonological one; I can't >imagine in being used anywhere I've lived to refer to the content, >focus, or direction of the course "she" teaches. > >Larry > >> > >Think again, Larry, about what people do in actual conversations! > >See NEW OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH, s.v. ACCENT, "3. a special or >particular emphasis: _the accent is on participation_." > >I don't have time to do a web search, but I'd guess one could find examples >of this pretty easily. I will grant you that general ACCENT is not used this >way without some explicitly defining context. However, as I'm sure Larry >knows (!), a snippet of conversation divorced from the rest of the >conversation may well divorce the snippet from the explicitly defining >context that was implicitly understood by the participants in the >conversation. > True enough, but what I was looking at (out of the full discourse context, to be sure) was not just "accent" but "I don't like her accent", which I think for most speakers represents quite a different environment than "the accent is on participation". larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 14 06:35:00 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:35:00 +0800 Subject: Real McCoy In-Reply-To: <001101c13d46$f139b2e0$023264c0@green> Message-ID: At 6:59 PM +0100 9/14/01, Jonathon Green wrote: >There is a longish (eight-page) essay on this term by Partridge in _From >Sanskrit to Brazil_ (1952), reprinted in _Eric Partridge in His Own Words_ >(1980). A quick glance sugegsts that he seems to cover most of the theories >(boxer, bootlegger, Scotch whisky, etc.) , and differentiates between UK >Mackay and US McCoy. If anyone is sufficiently interested, I'd be happy to >scan it in and post it. > That's the one cited in Brewer, and also (equally approvingly) in Funk's _Heavens to Betsy!_; Partridge was apparently sufficiently persuasive therein that he won over Mitford Mathews, who had previously published (in _A Dictionary of Americanisms_, 1946) an entertaining story according to which the origin involved non-cut heroin brought in from the island of Macao, which set the standard for "dope addicts" who came to particularly value "the real Macao". (Good ol' Ben Trovato strikes again.) There's probably a version somewhere that features bird-fanciers in search of the real macaw. larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Sep 14 21:12:21 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:12:21 -0700 Subject: lame denials Message-ID: has anyone studied denials of intent in speech? i have in mind, specifically, implausible disavowals of import, as in the following three examples (of rather different types): 1. speaker refers to rep. barney frank of massachusetts as "barney fag", with evident pleasure in the childishly insulting deformation of the name, but later denies intent to insult by claiming it was a slip of the tongue. 2. speaker refers to a female colleague of japanese descent as a "slant-eyed cunt", but later denies intent to insult by maintaining that he sometimes just talks nonsense. 3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to "secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". i do *not* have in mind ordinary speech errors, or misspeakings that arise from cluelessness, or even speech actually designed to accommodate plausible denial (like a MUCK FICHIGAN bumper sticker), but things whose intent and import can be discerned by any reasonable hearer, yet are disavowed after the fact. and my question was whether such lame denials have been studied - or, at least, collected and classified - by anyone. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From emckean at ENTERACT.COM Fri Sep 14 21:21:19 2001 From: emckean at ENTERACT.COM (emckean at ENTERACT.COM) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:21:19 -0500 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: <200109142112.f8ELCLM23228@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: I would be very very interested in publishing an article on this topic in VERBATIM, if anyone needs that incentive to begin research. .. Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > has anyone studied denials of intent in speech? i have in mind, > specifically, implausible disavowals of import, as in the following > three examples (of rather different types): > > 1. speaker refers to rep. barney frank of massachusetts as "barney > fag", with evident pleasure in the childishly insulting deformation of > the name, but later denies intent to insult by claiming it was a slip > of the tongue. > > 2. speaker refers to a female colleague of japanese descent as a > "slant-eyed cunt", but later denies intent to insult by maintaining > that he sometimes just talks nonsense. > > 3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, > feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the > atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to > "secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful > intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". > > i do *not* have in mind ordinary speech errors, or misspeakings that > arise from cluelessness, or even speech actually designed to > accommodate plausible denial (like a MUCK FICHIGAN bumper sticker), > but things whose intent and import can be discerned by any reasonable > hearer, yet are disavowed after the fact. > > and my question was whether such lame denials have been studied - or, > at least, collected and classified - by anyone. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > From Vocabula at AOL.COM Fri Sep 14 21:54:51 2001 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:54:51 EDT Subject: lame denials Message-ID: I, too, would be keenly interested in considering such an article for publication. Robert Hartwell Fiske The Vocabula Review http://www.vocabula.com ___________________________________________________ To subscribe to The Vocabula Review: http://www.vocabula.com/VRsubscribe.htm TVR Forum: http://members.boardhost.com/Vocabula/ Do you enjoy reading The Vocabula Review each month? If so, please help ensure that you can by contributing now: http://www.vocabula.com/VRgenerosity.htm ___________________________________________________ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 United States Tel: (781) 861-1515 From garethb2 at STREETTECH.COM Fri Sep 14 21:35:04 2001 From: garethb2 at STREETTECH.COM (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:35:04 -0400 Subject: lame denials Message-ID: I wrote a piece on doublespeak years ago that's still available online: http://www.stim.com/Stim-x/8.2/doublespeak/doublespeak-08.2.html Some of the writing makes me wince (I'd like to think I've improved since then), but I think most of it holds up well enough to point out here. [BTW: This piece was written for STIM, a webzine for Prodigy I wrote for in the mid '90s.] -----Original Message----- From: emckean at ENTERACT.COM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Date: Friday, September 14, 2001 5:31 PM Subject: Re: lame denials >I would be very very interested in publishing an article on this topic in >VERBATIM, if anyone needs that incentive to begin research. .. > >Erin McKean >editor at verbatimmag.com > > > >On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > >> has anyone studied denials of intent in speech? i have in mind, >> specifically, implausible disavowals of import, as in the following >> three examples (of rather different types): >> >> 1. speaker refers to rep. barney frank of massachusetts as "barney >> fag", with evident pleasure in the childishly insulting deformation of >> the name, but later denies intent to insult by claiming it was a slip >> of the tongue. >> >> 2. speaker refers to a female colleague of japanese descent as a >> "slant-eyed cunt", but later denies intent to insult by maintaining >> that he sometimes just talks nonsense. >> >> 3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, >> feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the >> atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to >> "secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful >> intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". >> >> i do *not* have in mind ordinary speech errors, or misspeakings that >> arise from cluelessness, or even speech actually designed to >> accommodate plausible denial (like a MUCK FICHIGAN bumper sticker), >> but things whose intent and import can be discerned by any reasonable >> hearer, yet are disavowed after the fact. >> >> and my question was whether such lame denials have been studied - or, >> at least, collected and classified - by anyone. >> >> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) >> From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 14 23:15:36 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:15:36 -0400 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: <200109142112.f8ELCLM23228@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: arnold, Have you checked the legal literature (which is rife with comment on "intent," including verbal)? Maybe Ron or Bethany will jump in. dInIs >has anyone studied denials of intent in speech? i have in mind, >specifically, implausible disavowals of import, as in the following >three examples (of rather different types): > >1. speaker refers to rep. barney frank of massachusetts as "barney >fag", with evident pleasure in the childishly insulting deformation of >the name, but later denies intent to insult by claiming it was a slip >of the tongue. > >2. speaker refers to a female colleague of japanese descent as a >"slant-eyed cunt", but later denies intent to insult by maintaining >that he sometimes just talks nonsense. > >3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, >feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the >atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to >"secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful >intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". > >i do *not* have in mind ordinary speech errors, or misspeakings that >arise from cluelessness, or even speech actually designed to >accommodate plausible denial (like a MUCK FICHIGAN bumper sticker), >but things whose intent and import can be discerned by any reasonable >hearer, yet are disavowed after the fact. > >and my question was whether such lame denials have been studied - or, >at least, collected and classified - by anyone. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Sep 14 23:45:27 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:45:27 -0400 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: <200109142112.f8ELCLM23228@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: arnold zwicky writes: >3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, >feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the >atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to >"secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful >intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". A friend wrote me that NYT & WP were reporting that Jerry Falwell & Pat Robertson had concurred in these just these opinions on the latter's "700 Club" (radio? or tv?) but I didn't hear that either had issued denials, lame or otherwise! A. Murie From douglas at NB.NET Sat Sep 15 00:45:08 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:45:08 -0400 Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >True enough, but what I was looking at (out of the full discourse >context, to be sure) was not just "accent" but "I don't like her >accent", which I think for most speakers represents quite a different >environment than "the accent is on participation". Certainly the quotation as read would seem to refer to "accent" in sense #3 in the AHD4: <<3. A characteristic pronunciation, especially: a. One determined by the regional or social background of the speaker. b. One determined by the phonetic habits of the speaker's native language carried over to his or her use of another language.>> It is not so clear (to me) whether it refers to (a) or to (b). When I was in college, I heard many complaints from classmates about the instructors' "accents", and I don't remember a case where the reference was to social or political implications: the complaint generally was simply that a "strong" Indian/Russian/Filipino/whatever "accent" made the lecture/discussion partially incomprehensible. In some cases, I think "accent" subsumes grammatical peculiarities along with "foreign" pronunciations, in this sort of casual usage. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 15 02:18:57 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:18:57 EDT Subject: Material Witness Warrant Message-ID: MATERIAL WITNESS WARRANT A Material Witness Warrant was issued today. This is not in the OED, which has revised "m." -------------------------------------------------------- OED An OED update is attached below. At the very end of this message, it's said to check out www.askoxford.com. I did. From http://wwww.askoxford.com/worldofwords/oed/surgeon/newmaterial/ SIMON WINCHESTER: So what is the answer? Why "Big," why "Apple"? JOHN SIMPSON: I believe that various jazz venues around America were known as "apples" and New York was "The Big Apple" because it was a central one. (John Simpson must be tortured for this. Maybe he can come to New York right now and watch a one-hour ESPN SportsCenter, or an interview with Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton--ed.) -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: OEDonline Subject: OED Online Quarterly Update Announcement Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:22:55 +0100 (BST) Size: 3700 URL: From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Sep 15 02:36:55 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:36:55 EDT Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? Message-ID: In a message dated 9/14/2001 2:01:57 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << True enough, but what I was looking at (out of the full discourse context, to be sure) was not just "accent" but "I don't like her accent", which I think for most speakers represents quite a different environment than "the accent is on participation". >> Well, yes, of course it does--as I said in my last posting. The point is not what it is most likely to have meant to an eavesdropper but what it COULD have meant within the framework of the conversation. Larry's earlier posting seemed to be saying that ACCENT in the sense of 'dialect' or 'pronunciation' was the ONLY thing that I DON'T LIKE HER ACCENT could mean. I don't see how that could be true. Possibly it could be that ACCENT in my Midwestern dialect has a slightly different weighting for unmodified ACCENT than it does in Larry's Eastern dialect, but I can't imagine that, even in New York, ACCENT 'pronunciation' is the ONLY thing that I DON'T LIKE HER ACCENT could mean to the participants in a conversation. Doug Wilson's suggestion that the student might have been reacting to the difficulties of understanding a foreign accent strikes me as pragmatically very plausible--a reading that neither I nor Larry (nor the original poster) thought of. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 14 14:47:48 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:47:48 +0800 Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? In-Reply-To: <131.195ec12.28d418c7@aol.com> Message-ID: At 10:36 PM -0400 9/14/01, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >Doug Wilson's suggestion that the student might have been reacting to the >difficulties of understanding a foreign accent strikes me as pragmatically >very plausible--a reading that neither I nor Larry (nor the original poster) >thought of. I agree completely that Doug's reading is plausible, but speaking for myself, that WAS within the range of meanings I had in mind; we get comments like that from our students (yes, even at Yale) about non-native instructors and TAs. "I don't like her accent" could express a distaste for, or a complaint against the difficulty or 'foreignness' of, any way of pronouncing English other than the student's own. I still don't get the "content" reading. larry From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Sep 15 04:44:14 2001 From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:44:14 -0500 Subject: Civil War Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 15 11:04:51 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:04:51 EDT Subject: Hollyweed Message-ID: HOLLYWEED "Hollyweed" (for "Hollywood") came up on some net surfing today. It's not in Jonathan Green's CDS or the HDAS. -------------------------------------------------------- "Of the many fabulous coinages of Dr. Seuss," he (Saul Steinmetz--ed.) recalls, "only _grinch_ made it into the common vocabulary, in the transferred sense of 'a spoilsport or killjoy'--and it took 20 years." ---"Screening the novel words of Harry Potter" by Jeff McQuain, the "On Language" column in the NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE, 16 September 2001. "Nerd." From Dr. Seuss. Made it into the vocabulary almost immediately. Any lexicographer would be able to point this out. YOU write a letter to the editor and correct it. They didn't believe me recently when I walked over a 1959 ad for "personal computer." The "On Language" column, in particular, wouldn't spell a dead man's name correctly, cite his words correctly, correct a quote of mine, or even talk to me about it. No ADS members would help on my behalf. It took the New York Times four years to even correct Barry "Popick." And even that--my NAME!--involved an extended bit of trickery on the Times's Abuzz network to get right. I've had it. From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Sep 15 13:14:32 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:14:32 -0400 Subject: FW: lame denials Message-ID: Arnold Z's comment (cc'd below) reminded me of the attacks on talk radio hosts like Rush Limbaugh in the wake of the Oklahoma City bombing. As in that case, here some nearsighted individuals, out of their hatred or anger, look to place blame in mistaken places. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of sagehen Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:45 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: lame denials arnold zwicky writes: >3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, >feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the >atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to >"secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful >intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Sep 15 14:00:52 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:00:52 -0400 Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010914202643.00a54a00@nb.net> Message-ID: Remember too the research which shows that undergraduates rated a native speaker of Amnerican Englisbh (with outward Asian identity) as more difficult to understand than other native speakers of the same variety. We must always remember that the ear its attached to all of the brain - not just the part that converts signals to phonemes, then to morphemes, etc... . dInIs PS: Jessica Williams' research. University of Illinois Chicago? I can't recall. >>True enough, but what I was looking at (out of the full discourse >>context, to be sure) was not just "accent" but "I don't like her >>accent", which I think for most speakers represents quite a different >>environment than "the accent is on participation". > >Certainly the quotation as read would seem to refer to "accent" in sense #3 >in the AHD4: > ><<3. A characteristic pronunciation, especially: a. One determined by the >regional or social background of the speaker. b. One determined by the >phonetic habits of the speaker's native language carried over to his or her >use of another language.>> > >It is not so clear (to me) whether it refers to (a) or to (b). > >When I was in college, I heard many complaints from classmates about the >instructors' "accents", and I don't remember a case where the reference was >to social or political implications: the complaint generally was simply >that a "strong" Indian/Russian/Filipino/whatever "accent" made the >lecture/discussion partially incomprehensible. In some cases, I think >"accent" subsumes grammatical peculiarities along with "foreign" >pronunciations, in this sort of casual usage. > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Sep 15 14:26:58 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:26:58 -0400 Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One would grant Ron that accent has several non-pronuciation senses, and one would certainly grant that a careful investigation of discourses will turn up multiplicities of meaning not seen out of context. But I would also argue that these meanings here are all rather "marked," at least in the limited context given (althoujgh I also agree with Ron that a "markedness slip" - we'll now hear no doubt that Ron and I are the first to use that heady phrase - could have occurred). My main point here, however, is to note that from hours and hours (and hours) of our folk linguistic recordings (with full contexts, many reported on concerning just this topic in Niedzielski and Preston 1999, Folk LInguistics, Mouton de Gruyter) we do indeed find that "pronunciation" is the primary sense of "accent" for nonlinguists (although expansion of this to include other aspects of language - lexicon, grammar) is also common. dInIs >In a message dated 9/14/2001 12:17:44 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > ><< >>"The only reason I am dropping the class is because of the teacher. I >> >don't like her accent." >> > >The only way I can take the above is the phonological one; I can't >imagine in being used anywhere I've lived to refer to the content, >focus, or direction of the course "she" teaches. > >Larry > >> > >Think again, Larry, about what people do in actual conversations! > >See NEW OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH, s.v. ACCENT, "3. a special or >particular emphasis: _the accent is on participation_." > >I don't have time to do a web search, but I'd guess one could find examples >of this pretty easily. I will grant you that general ACCENT is not used this >way without some explicitly defining context. However, as I'm sure Larry >knows (!), a snippet of conversation divorced from the rest of the >conversation may well divorce the snippet from the explicitly defining >context that was implicitly understood by the participants in the >conversation. > >I'd even go farther and suggest that, even if this sense of ACCENT had not >been explicitly defined by the parties in the conversation, the speaker could >well have assumed that it was implicit (if she believed that her friend would >not believe that mere pronunciation would drive her away from a class). > >I'd even go farther than that and suggest that, given that the above >definition of ACCENT is common to native speakers of American English, the >speaker was at worst making a very low-level performance error such as is >frequently common in actual conversation, i.e., using a word in one of its >"marked" senses in a context where it would be most likely to be construed in >its unmarked or default sense. > >Finally, I'm not totally sure that for anyone other than a linguist ACCENT is >so strongly associated with 'pronunciation' as its default meaning. -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From douglas at NB.NET Sat Sep 15 14:19:44 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:19:44 -0400 Subject: Hollyweed In-Reply-To: <33.1ae305e5.28d48fd3@aol.com> Message-ID: > "Nerd." > From Dr. Seuss. Made it into the vocabulary almost immediately. Any > lexicographer would be able to point this out. A more balanced discussion appears in AHD4: http://www.bartleby.com/61/32/N0063200.html The word could have been taken from among the MANY Seuss nonsense-coinages, or it could have been someone-else's nonsense-coinage. I would tentatively prefer the latter explanation, since there are so many someone-elses. What about Mortimer Snerd? Whence came his surname? And what about "Mad" magazine's favorite surname, "Furd"? -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Sep 15 14:29:02 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:29:02 -0400 Subject: Hollyweed In-Reply-To: <33.1ae305e5.28d48fd3@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > "Nerd." > From Dr. Seuss. Made it into the vocabulary almost immediately. > Any lexicographer would be able to point this out. > YOU write a letter to the editor and correct it. > I've had it. Actually, in my opinion, it's likely that Dr. Seuss did not coin "nerd." Merriam-Webster has a 1951 citation in its files indicating the word was already current by that year and making no reference to Seuss (I have seen the citation, but don't have it handy, perhaps Joanne Despres could post it). Given the facts that the Seuss usage was 1950 and that the Seuss usage may be a coincidental occurrence, I would surmise that there was a slang word "nerd" not originating with Seuss and going back at least to the late 1940s. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From douglas at NB.NET Sat Sep 15 14:58:16 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:58:16 -0400 Subject: Does not compute Message-ID: The odd 'ergative' declaration "[Expression X] does not compute" (spoken by a computer) must have appeared in some old "Star Trek" program or some old science-fiction movie, I guess. I suppose it means roughly "[Expression X] cannot be parsed" or "[Expression X] is invalid". It is now used like "... doesn't make sense" or so, I think. Is there any information on the origin of this clumsy declaration? It was my unsupported casual impression, ca. 1970 IIRC, that this was an alteration of "[Operator/variable X] does not commute". As I recall, operators which correspond to simultaneously measurable observables in quantum mechanics must commute ... or something like that. And in classical dynamics, isn't it sometimes important to determine whether something-or-other commutes with the Hamiltonian? I suppose this sense of "commute" is not instantly familiar to the average citizen, but it might very well have been familiar to an SF-movie technical adviser (physics and SF nerd) or to an SF author/editor, back in the day. [This came up in a recent conversation about 'ergative' constructions such as "Campbell's Chunky Soup eats like a meal." (Sorry if I'm taking undue liberties in my use of 'ergative'.)] -- Doug Wilson From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Sep 15 15:19:59 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:19:59 EDT Subject: markedness slips are showing Message-ID: In a message dated 9/15/2001 10:18:34 AM, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: << One would grant Ron that accent has several non-pronuciation senses, and one would certainly grant that a careful investigation of discourses will turn up multiplicities of meaning not seen out of context. But I would also argue that these meanings here are all rather "marked," at least in the limited context given (althoujgh I also agree with Ron that a "markedness slip" - we'll now hear no doubt that Ron and I are the first to use that heady phrase - could have occurred). My main point here, however, is to note that from hours and hours (and hours) of our folk linguistic recordings (with full contexts, many reported on concerning just this topic in Niedzielski and Preston 1999, Folk LInguistics, Mouton de Gruyter) we do indeed find that "pronunciation" is the primary sense of "accent" for nonlinguists (although expansion of this to include other aspects of language - lexicon, grammar) is also common. dInIs >> Sure! The difference between a default reading and a nondefault reading is that the default reading is the one that most often occurs. Duh! The point is that in conversation--when the speaker feels certain that the hearer is going to interpret what the speaker says as one of the nondefault readings--then a nondefault reading may well be (or even has to be) the one intended. For example: Speaker A: I really like it that she is accenting the course towards contemporary history. Speaker B: Well, I'm dropping the course because *I* just don't like her accent. Or what if Speaker A and Speaker B both have heard the instructor speak and both know that the instructor has no noticeable pronunciational differences between her speech and the speech of Speakers A and B? How can Larry ("I still don't get the 'content' reading") Horn--who teaches courses in pragmatics--eliminate potential contexts from consideration in determining the possible range of meanings of the utterance in question? These aren't far-fetched examples, they are typical of what people do in real conversations. Maybe a different example will help. Take the noun IRON. As a count noun, IRON would seem to have the default meaning 'appliance used to press clothing'. In isolation, then, in a sentence such as She hit her sister on the head with the iron IRON would have the default reading 'appliance used to press clothing'. But IRON also can refer to a golf club, though this usage is normally combined with a number, as in FOUR IRON. However, it is fairly easy to construct contexts in which She hit her sister on the head with the iron. Would unambiguously refer to a golf club--for example, if the incident in question took place on a golf course. From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Sat Sep 15 16:16:07 2001 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:16:07 -0600 Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe that the unmarked, basic meaning of 'accent' in the speech community as a whole is the linguistic one. I'd bet a week's pay that virtually anyone encountering the word in isolation and asked what it meant would say something about speech. In the context under discussion, the fact that the speaker says "her" (instead of "the") makes it pretty clear that that must have been the meaning here too. It may not have been specifically a geographical accent or even a non-English one that was meant -- maybe just a dislike of the general way the teacher spoke that for some reason grated on the student (who knows what personal associations might be involved here). Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 1533 Early Drive Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 3K1 Canada > On Friday, September 14, 2001 11:48 AM, RonButters writes: > In a message dated 9/14/2001 12:17:44 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > See NEW OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH, s.v. ACCENT, "3. a special or > particular emphasis: _the accent is on participation_." > > I don't have time to do a web search, but I'd guess one could > find examples > of this pretty easily. I will grant you that general ACCENT is > not used this > way without some explicitly defining context. However, as I'm sure Larry > knows (!), a snippet of conversation divorced from the rest of the > conversation may well divorce the snippet from the explicitly defining > context that was implicitly understood by the participants in the > conversation. > > I'd even go farther and suggest that, even if this sense of ACCENT had not > been explicitly defined by the parties in the conversation, the > speaker could > well have assumed that it was implicit (if she believed that her > friend would > not believe that mere pronunciation would drive her away from a class). > > I'd even go farther than that and suggest that, given that the above > definition of ACCENT is common to native speakers of American English, the > speaker was at worst making a very low-level performance error such as is > frequently common in actual conversation, i.e., using a word in > one of its > "marked" senses in a context where it would be most likely to be > construed in > its unmarked or default sense. > > Finally, I'm not totally sure that for anyone other than a > linguist ACCENT is > so strongly associated with 'pronunciation' as its default meaning. > From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Sep 15 16:43:09 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:43:09 EDT Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? Message-ID: In a message dated 9/15/01 12:26:09 PM, vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM writes: << In the context under discussion, the fact that the speaker says "her" (instead of "the") makes it pretty clear that that must have been the meaning here too. >> Well, see my slip-is-showing examples before you say "must"; better to say, "... makes it pretty clear that THE MOST LIKELY meaning here IS 'PRONUNCIATION'." Which is all that I have been trying to say all along. From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Sep 15 16:52:38 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:52:38 -0400 Subject: Does not compute In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010915102827.00b229f0@nb.net>; from douglas@NB.NET on Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 10:58:16AM -0400 Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 10:58:16AM -0400, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > The odd 'ergative' declaration "[Expression X] does not compute" (spoken by > a computer) must have appeared in some old "Star Trek" program or some old > science-fiction movie, I guess. I suppose it means roughly "[Expression X] > cannot be parsed" or "[Expression X] is invalid". It is now used like "... > doesn't make sense" or so, I think. > > Is there any information on the origin of this clumsy declaration? The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang says that it was introduced as a catchphrase by the television show _My Living Doll_ in 1964. Jesse Sheidlower OED From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Sep 15 18:01:18 2001 From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:01:18 -0400 Subject: Does not compute Message-ID: I believe it was also used on Irwin Allen's "Lost in Space" (1965), along with "Affirmative!," "Warning! Warning!," and of course, "Danger, Will Robinson." Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 10:58:16AM -0400, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > The odd 'ergative' declaration "[Expression X] does not compute" (spoken by > > a computer) must have appeared in some old "Star Trek" program or some old > > science-fiction movie, I guess. I suppose it means roughly "[Expression X] > > cannot be parsed" or "[Expression X] is invalid". It is now used like "... > > doesn't make sense" or so, I think. > > > > Is there any information on the origin of this clumsy declaration? > > The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang says that > it was introduced as a catchphrase by the television show _My Living > Doll_ in 1964. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Sep 15 18:29:15 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:29:15 EDT Subject: Civil War Message-ID: In a message dated 09/14/2001 12:41:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: > Does anyone know of any books or articles or dictionaries that discuss the > origin of the term "Civil War," in specific reference to the American > conflict of 1861-65? I have a copy of the _Annual Cyclopaedia of the year 1862_ (New York: D. Appleton & Company, 1863, no ISBN). A brief, less-than-thorough thumbing through this book produced innumerable references to "the war", "this war", and "the present war." There are also several citations for "insurrection" and "rebellion", e.g. (page 294) a letter from Secretary of State Seward to the Senate, dated December 19, 1861, contains "From the beginning of the insurrection..." and page 295 a resolution offered by Senator Waltman T. Willey of Virginia, also on December 19, 1861, begins "Resolved, That the existing war, forced upon the county by the instagotors of the rebellion without justifiable cause or provocation..." However, I found the following: page 277, article on "Congress, U.S." on December 4, 1861, in the House of Representatives, William S. Holman of Indiana quoted a resolution of July 22, 1861 introduced by John J. Crittenden of Kentucky which included the following words "That the present deplorable civil war has been forced upon the country by the disunionists of the Southern States now in revolt against the consititutional Government..." page 270, article on "Congress, Confederate", Senator Lewis T. Wigfall of Texas is quoted (apparently in paraphrase) as saying "the gentleman was as much mistaken as Abraham Lincoln or William H. Seward if he thought this was a revolution---that we were subjects fighting against an established Government. If we were we would be entitled to the term "rebels." This is no civil war. It is a war of some sovereign States against other States. There was civil war in Kentucky, where citizens of the same State were at war against one another." Page 726 article "Public Documents" Message of President Lincoln at the third session of the Thirty-seventh Contress, December 1, 1862 includes the following "The civil war which has so radically changed, for the moment, the occupations and habits of the American people" and "A civil war occurring in a country where foreigners reside and carry on trade under treaty stipulations is necessarily frruitful of complaints of the violation of neutral rights." and (page 727) "The Territories of the United States, with unimportant exceptions, have remained undisturbed by the civil war". - Jim Landau From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Sep 15 19:43:28 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:43:28 -0400 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/14/01 19:45, "sagehen" wrote: > arnold zwicky writes: >> 3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, >> feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the >> atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to >> "secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful >> intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". > > A friend wrote me that NYT & WP were reporting that Jerry Falwell & Pat > Robertson had concurred in these just these opinions on the latter's "700 > Club" (radio? or tv?) but I didn't hear that either had issued denials, > lame or otherwise! Those denials are in today's paper. I can't find it in the online version, but today's New York Times, page A15, right two columns: "Mr. Falwell released a statement yesterday on the controversy, saying, 'Despite the impression some may have from news reports today, I hold no one other than the terrorists and the people and nations who have enabled and harbored them responsible for Tuesday's attacks on this nation.' 'I sincerely regret that the comments I made during a long theological discussion on a Christian television program yesterday were taken out of their context and reported and that my thoughts--reduced to sound bites--have detracted from the spirit of this day of mourning.'" Robertson had a similar, but shorter denial. Part of what Falwell said: "The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize American, I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Sep 15 08:00:17 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:00:17 +0800 Subject: Does not compute In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010915102827.00b229f0@nb.net> Message-ID: >... >[This came up in a recent conversation about 'ergative' constructions such >as "Campbell's Chunky Soup eats like a meal." (Sorry if I'm taking undue >liberties in my use of 'ergative'.)] > >-- Doug Wilson Well, in fact, without making too fine a point on it, yes, there are some liberties taken here; how undue depends on the theory. For most who have worried about them, what you call ergative constructions (and are more generally called unaccusatives) are ultimately distinct from, although on some level (especially in sharing a "patient subject") related to, the "middles" exemplified by "the soup that eats like a meal" (the actual phrase used in the Cambpell ads). The former (e.g. "The boat sank", "The door closed", "The ice melted", "The building exploded") do not imply the existence of an agent responsible for the event in question, although as in each of these cases, the event may indeed have been caused either by an agent or a force of nature. The latter ("This bread slices easily", "He don't scare", "Shakespeare translates with difficulty", "The car is selling like hotcakes") do have implicit agents, although typically these cannot be directly expressed the way passive agents can. Middles also often sound funny if they're not modified with an adverb (including negation), while unaccusatives/ergatives don't need any modification. (Yes, you can say "The car sold/drives", but it sounds funny unless there's a contrastive context and intonation, neither of which is necessary for "The boat sank". And "Campbell's Chunky Soup eats" sounds like a failed attempt at an insult.) larry From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Sep 15 20:23:54 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:23:54 -0400 Subject: lame denials (clarification) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I see from Grant Barrett's post that I need to proofread better. I certainly DIDN'T mean "these just opinions." Falwell's disingenuous retraction is ridiculous. He's saying, in effect, he doesn't really mean it, it's just part of his doctrine. I'm happy to say I would qualify for most of his opprobrium, but feel neither more nor less responsible than any other citizen of this privileged country for Tuesday's horror. > wrote: >> A friend wrote me that NYT & WP were reporting that Jerry Falwell & Pat >> Robertson had concurred in these just these opinions on the latter's "700 >> Club" (radio? or tv?) but I didn't hear that either had issued denials, >> lame or otherwise! >...Falwell said...... "I really believe that the pagans, >and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who >are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People >for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize American, I >point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" A. Murie -- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 15 20:32:07 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:32:07 EDT Subject: Pancaking Message-ID: From the LOS ANGELES TIMES, 12 September 2001, pg. A4: 'The technical term is progressive collapse--the slang term is pancaking," said Ron Klemencic, president of Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire, the Seattle firm that engineered the World Trade Center. "What basically happens is that one floor falls on top of the floors below it, and with one floor falling on top of another there's no way to stop it." From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Sat Sep 15 23:06:13 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:06:13 -0400 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 03:43 PM 9/15/01 -0400, you wrote: >On 9/14/01 19:45, "sagehen" wrote: > > > arnold zwicky writes: > >> 3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, > >> feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the > >> atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to > >> "secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful > >> intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". > > > > A friend wrote me that NYT & WP were reporting that Jerry Falwell & Pat > > Robertson had concurred in these just these opinions on the latter's "700 > > Club" (radio? or tv?) but I didn't hear that either had issued denials, > > lame or otherwise! > >Those denials are in today's paper. I can't find it in the online version, >but today's New York Times, page A15, right two columns: > >"Mr. Falwell released a statement yesterday on the controversy, saying, >'Despite the impression some may have from news reports today, I hold no one >other than the terrorists and the people and nations who have enabled and >harbored them responsible for Tuesday's attacks on this nation.' > >'I sincerely regret that the comments I made during a long theological >discussion on a Christian television program yesterday were taken out of >their context and reported and that my thoughts--reduced to sound >bites--have detracted from the spirit of this day of mourning.'" > >Robertson had a similar, but shorter denial. > >Part of what Falwell said: "The abortionists have got to bear some burden >for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million >little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, >and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who >are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People >for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize American, I >point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" > >-- > >Grant Barrett >gbarrett at worldnewyork.org >http://www.worldnewyork.org/ E. L. Doctorow, on NPR this morning, had it right: He said Falwell is no different from the perpetrators of this horrible week when he justifies the murder of thousands. _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Sep 15 23:18:35 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 18:18:35 -0500 Subject: "nerd" (1951) in Merriam-Webster files Message-ID: Fred Shapiro today requested Merriam-Webster's Joanne Despres to post the 1951 citation of "nerd": >Actually, in my opinion, it's likely that Dr. Seuss did not coin "nerd." >Merriam-Webster has a 1951 citation in its files indicating the word was >already current by that year and making no reference to Seuss (I have seen >the citation, but don't have it handy, perhaps Joanne Despres could post >it). Given the facts that the Seuss usage was 1950 and that the Seuss >usage may be a coincidental occurrence, I would surmise that there was a >slang word "nerd" not originating with Seuss and going back at least to >the late 1940s. > >Fred Shapiro I checked my files on "nerd" and find the following e-mail from Joanne Despres: >Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 >From: "Joanne M. Despres" >Subject: Re: Wuss & others >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >No, the 1951 citation in our files does not have anything to do with >the Dr. Seuss character; it is the first use of _nerd_ we've been able to >find that applies to any person having the characteristics >described in the definition ("an unstylish, unattractive, or socially >inept person"). The Seuss critter is, however, mentioned in our etymology >as a possible source for the generic term. > >The citation, by the way, comes from Newsweek (October 8, 1951, p. >28) and reads as follows: > >"In Detroit, someone who once would be called a drip or a square is >now, regrettably, a nerd, or in a less severe case, a scurve." > >Joanne Despres >Merriam-Webster From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 15 23:49:09 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:49:09 EDT Subject: Here's How! (1927, 1928) & Here's How Again! (1929) Message-ID: HERE'S HOW! New and Revised Edition By Judge Jr. (Norman Anthony--ed.) The John Day Company, NY 1927, 1928 Could it be possible that I missed this book? I found it while looking up another of Anthony's books. FYI: there was Prohibition at this time. The Apple Jackrabbit...11 Everything But--...12 The White Lily...13 The Dodge Special...14 Little Willie...15 The Mamie Taylor...16 (OED should have this drink--ed.) The White Cargo...17 The Royal Smile...18 The Nose Dive...19 The Magnolia Blossom...20 The Judgette...21 The Grape Vine...22 Mint Fizz...23 The Golden Gate...24 Oh, Henry!...25 Judge, Jr...26 Silver Fizz...27 Silver Stallion...28 The Los Angeles...29 Polo Cocktail...30 The Corn Popper...31 The Mule's Hind Leg...32 The Nevada...33 Cornell Special...34 The Philadelphia Scotchman...35 The French '75...36 The Cubano...37 De Riguer...38 Alexander's Sister...39 Bacardi Punch...40 Bacardi Cocktail...41 The Wop...42 Barbary Coast...43 Brandy Gump...44 The Hurricane...45 The Earthquake...46 The Frankenjack...47 The Swiss Itch...48 Old Reliables...49 The Crow...51 Louisiana Fizz...52 Champagne Cocktail...53 The Lion...54 Whiskey Sour...55 A Hot Toddy...56 The Cowboy...57 An Egg Nog...58 The Dacqueri Cocktail...59 Jack Rose Cocktail...60 Attaboy Cocktail...61 The Mint Julep...62 Pg. 12: _Everything but--_ THIS little drink is christened thusly because it contains everything but the kitchen stove! 1/4 Scotch; 1/4 Gordon water; 1/4 lemon juice; 1/4 orange juice; 1 egg; 1 teaspoonful of Apricot brandy; powdered sugar. Pg. 32: _The Mule's hind leg_ (See archives for Moscow Mule--ed.) THIS title is not an exaggeration--we know--we tried it! 1/5 Gordon water; 1/5 benedictine; 1/5 Applejack; 1/5 Apricot brandy; 1/5 maple syrup. Pg. 47: _The frankenjack_ INVENTED by the two proprietors of a very, very well-known Speakeasy in New York City. (Jack & Charlie's 21?--ed.) 1/3 Gordon water; 1/3 French vermouth; 1/6 apricot brandy; 1/6 Cointreau. -------------------------------------------------------- HERE'S HOW AGAIN! By Judge Jr. The John Day Company, NY 1929 APPLEJACK DRINKS Eve's Apple...13 The Pump...14 The Parachute...15 The Tunney...16 APPLEJACK AND BRANDY DRINKS The Swan Song...17 The Lightning Bug...18 BACARDI DRINKS Southern Honeysuckle...19 The Red Flag...20 The South Sea...21 Leave Me With a Smile...22 BRANDY DRINKS The Upanattem...23 The Yegg...24 The Monte Cristo...25 The Cloven Hoof...26 The Zowie...27 Side Car...28 The Million Dollar Cocktail...29 GIN DRINKS The Kummel Ye Faithful...30 The Bronx Express...31 The Transatlantic Flyer...32 The Gray Dawn...33 The Barney...34 The Ciro...35 The Hooperdooper...36 The Peacherino...37 Peach Dream...38 The Straight Eight...39 The Spearmint...40 The Oliver Twist...41 The Razzberry...42 The Highbrook...43 The Green-eyed Monster...44 GIN-BACARDI DRINKS Palm Beach Cocktail...45 RYE DRINKS The Revolving Door...46 Whiskey Sour...47 Ward Eight...48 The Sunkist...49 The Snake-in-the-grass...50 SCOTCH DRINKS The Prodigal...51 The Thistle...52 Hell's Belles...53 The Beautifier...54 The Black Eye...55 MISCELLANEOUS The Kitchen Stove...56 The Mussolini...57 The Alps...58 The Norman...59 The Sweet Mama...60 Hot Chocolate!...61 The Tomato Cocktail...62 ("SIDECAR" SIDEBAR: I had to request this microfilm twice before I got it--about three hours later. Then, the library closed. I'll be out of NYC, so I can't immediately copy the entries. However, it appears to antedate "Sidecar." John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK has: "The bar's owner, Harry MacElhone, claimed the drink was concocted in 1931 for a customer who always arrived in a motocycle sidecar. But the sidecar appears in several places in Carl Van Vechten's 1931 short story collection, _Parties_." Sidecar supposedly was invented during WWI--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 16 00:31:39 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:31:39 EDT Subject: Flying Tigers magazine (1960s) Message-ID: (ADDENDUM TO LAST POST: OED has "Sidecar" in 1928.) The NYPL gave me just reel two of ANNUAL PICTORIAL BULLETIN, 14TH AIR FORCE ASSOCIATION, FLYING TIGERS. It's an annual. 1962 Pg. 9: A "B.S. Artist" at work. 1963 Pg. 2: ...singing: "We never falter, we never fail, We sober up on wood alcohol..." 1963 Pg. 6: In the upper left, Col. Robert L. "God is My Co-Pilot" Scott, Jr., of the 23rd Fighter Group, one of our earliest and greatest aces, helps S/Sgt. R. Fuller and Sgt. J. Teague load his guns in preparation for Scott's final Jap hunt before leaving for the United States in January, 1943. 1963 Pg. 7: But they also served who acted as "honey-dippers" (left center)--one of the less glamorous occupations in the Far East--and female grain carrier (lower left). 1963 Pg. 13: Milk and Cookie Bar. 1963 Pg. 20: ...soup-and-fish-clad oilman Gene Ledeker (22 BS)(his motto: It taked but little toil--to get a goil--if you strike oil!)... 1964 Pg. 9: ...such platitudes as "You Can't Win 'Em All", "There's One in Every Crowd" and "Even Babe Ruth Struck Out Over 1000 Times." 1964 Pg. 20: ...a card over the bar that reads, "If This Sign is Blurred You Either Need Stronger Glasses or Weaker Drinks"... 1965 Pg. 7: Not to be outdone by these refinements of an ancient civilization, a Pentagon-based masochist offered his own version of the "Chinese Torture treatment, lower left. Captioned "Men of Gen. Chennault's 14th USAF eagerly await chance to buy beer at first ration in China"... 1968 Pg. 10: Next we see, complete with moat, the Imperial Palace in Tokyo, where the first few exotic days and nights were spent (in Tokyo, that is, not the Palace) and, lastly, the grounds around the Chinsanzo Restaurant, where our first Japanese meal together--a Mongolian Barbecue--was voraciously consumed with surprisingly favorable results. From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sat Sep 15 20:29:30 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:29:30 -0400 Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? Message-ID: A very interesting discussion. I think more evidence is needed in regard to what is generally understood and more of the context of "I don't like her accent" to determine the intended meaning here. A web search may indeed prove useful in regard to the first point. Perhaps Sonja Lanehart could supply more of the particular context in which the sentence was uttered. I do think it is worthwhile flogging this horse. RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > In a message dated 9/14/2001 12:17:44 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > << >>"The only reason I am dropping the class is because of the teacher. I > > >don't like her accent." > > > > The only way I can take the above is the phonological one; I can't > imagine in being used anywhere I've lived to refer to the content, > focus, or direction of the course "she" teaches. > > Larry > >> > > Think again, Larry, about what people do in actual conversations! > > See NEW OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH, s.v. ACCENT, "3. a special or > particular emphasis: _the accent is on participation_." > > I don't have time to do a web search, but I'd guess one could find examples > of this pretty easily. I will grant you that general ACCENT is not used this > way without some explicitly defining context. However, as I'm sure Larry > knows (!), a snippet of conversation divorced from the rest of the > conversation may well divorce the snippet from the explicitly defining > context that was implicitly understood by the participants in the > conversation. > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 16 01:27:32 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 21:27:32 EDT Subject: Boundarylessness Message-ID: "Boundarylessness." The big story this week was going to be the deapture of General Electric chairman Jack Welch. "Boundarylessness" was a key word at GE. CNN's Lou Dobbs mentioned that this word is not in any dictionary. See "Neutron Jack Exits" in last Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES Week-in-Review, 9 September 2001, pg. 18, col. 1. Other key terms are "fix it, clost it, or sell it" and "creative destruction." From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Sep 15 15:12:26 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:12:26 +0800 Subject: "sleeper cells" (WOTY candidate?) Message-ID: I just heard (Retired?) General Clark, who I remember from the Bosnia war and who is now a CNN military consultant, refer to the existence of "sleeper cells" in the terrorist network. A google search turned up this earlier use in a column at http://www.onlinecolumnist.com/032601.html called "Terrorism's New Malignancy" by John M. Curtis that warned last March rather prophetically, "Entering a bold new age of global terrorism, the U.S. is no longer immune to subversion and infiltration, requiring heightened security and adroit counter-measures": ================= When a suicide bomber blasted a 40-foot long hole in the hull of the U.S.S. guided missile destroyer Cole in the Yemen port of Aden killing 17 seamen, suspicions were raised about a "sleeper cell" being activated in the Arabian peninsula. All CIA reports pointed in the direction of Osama bin Laden. Dismissing this fact makes good public relations, but doesn't acknowledge the reality that most recent terrorism against U.S. interests leads to Kabul. ============= Other cites refer directly to the current attack and the investigation of the perpetrators. I don't know how far back the term goes. There are earlier medical uses of "sleeper cell" (referring to cancer), but I don't know if this is a coincidence. larry From douglas at NB.NET Sun Sep 16 03:38:21 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:38:21 -0400 Subject: "sleeper cells" (WOTY candidate?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think "sleeper cell" means simply a cell of sleepers. "Cell" meaning "small group [of spies/subversives/etc.]" -- back in the day, it was usually "Communist cell", and I think this type of organization was considered characteristic of Communists -- is cited from 1925 in my OED. "Sleeper" = "dormant spy/saboteur" is cited from 1955 in my OED, but I think it might be older. AHD4 gives good definitions. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 16 15:14:57 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:14:57 EDT Subject: Big Terror; Lindy's Cheesecake & Frozen Bananas Message-ID: BIG TERROR There's Big Steel, Big Tobacco, and Big Music. From the web (Seattle Times, 9-14-2001?): Everything reminds us of what happened on Tuesday when Big Terror took on the Big Apple--and almost won. -------------------------------------------------------- LINDY'S CHEESECAKE & FROZEN BANANA I didn't have much of a chance to go through Clementine Paddleford's columns. From THIS WEEK magazine, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 3 October 1948, pg, 46, col. 3: _Lindy's Cheesecake_ 2 1/2 pounds cream cheese 1 3/4 cups sugar 3 tablespoons flour 1 1/2 teaspoons grated orange rind 1 1/2 teaspoons grated lemon rind Pinch of vanilla bean pulp of 1/4 teaspoon vanilla extract 5 eggs 2 egg yolks 1/4 cup heavy cream Combine cream cheese, sugar, flour, grated orange and lemon rind, and vanilla. Add eggs and egg yolks, one at a time, stirring lightly after each addition. Stir in cream. From THIS WEEK, NYHT, 17 October 1948, pg. 47, col. 3: _Frozen bananas_ that's the latest concoction skewered to a stick and chocolate-covered, then frozen and wax-paper-bagged to sell from deep freezers to groceries and drugstores. Distribution to date in Chicago, Minneapolis, St. Paul. -------------------------------------------------------- MISC.: >From THIS WEEK, NYHT, 3 October 1948, pg. 26, col. 2: "There is an old joke, the tag line of which runs as follows: 'That horse ain't blind, he just don't give a darn.'" WINDY CITY: There has been no response from Don Wycliff, the Public Editor of the Chicago Tribune. It's been a month. The Chicago Tribune twice (this year) said that New York Sun editor Charles Anderson Dana coined "Windy City." I have asked ADS members who can write perhaps less passionate letters to write to the Public Editor. Nothing gets corrected. NEW YORK TIMES: I walked in the 1959 "personal computer" citation to the New York Times three weeks ago. The editor then went on vacation, but last Monday morning he e-mailed me that he was back. I didn't see any correction this Sunday (electronic version). It's bad enough that I make no money at all, but when people aren't kind to me and let errors stand, it's more than I can take. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 16 16:15:05 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 12:15:05 EDT Subject: New York Times Corrections Message-ID: I stand corrected! I had searched under "Barry Popik" (my name; I had found the citation in the course of my work) and DATAMATION (the name of the 1959 periodical where I found "personal computer"). Neither term is in the New York Times Correction: An article on Aug. 19 about the origins of the personal computer referred incorrectly to the first use of the term "personal computer" in advertising. A 1968 ad for a Hewlett Oackard desktop calculator was not the first occurrence. The term was used at least as far back as 1959 in an advertisement for the PACE TR-10 transistorized computer made by Electronic Associates, Inc. Amazing! The New York Times actually made a correction! Now how about correcting Charles Gillett's 1995 obituary, which said that Damon Runyon popularized "the Big Apple"? Damon Runyon had never used the term. I had sent my papers to the American Dialect Society member on the newspaper in 1992, and then also to nearly every single editor. How about making the corrections in William Safire's Sept. 2000 column that involves my name and work--my professional reputation? How come there's a quotation about George Thompson's sex life ("Fit to Print") and there's no quotation from the African-American stablehands who gave New York City its nickname? From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Sun Sep 16 19:01:31 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 15:01:31 -0400 Subject: New York Times Corrections In-Reply-To: <131.19bd7bb.28d62a09@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:15 PM 9/16/01 -0400, you wrote: > I stand corrected! > I had searched under "Barry Popik" (my name; I had found the citation > in the course of my work) and DATAMATION (the name of the 1959 periodical > where I found "personal computer"). Neither term is in the New York > Times Correction: > > An article on Aug. 19 about the origins of the personal computer > referred incorrectly to the first use of the term "personal computer" in > advertising. A 1968 ad for a Hewlett Oackard desktop calculator was not > the first occurrence. The term was used at least as far back as 1959 in > an advertisement for the PACE TR-10 transistorized computer made by > Electronic Associates, Inc. > > Amazing! The New York Times actually made a correction! > Now how about correcting Charles Gillett's 1995 obituary, which said > that Damon Runyon popularized "the Big Apple"? > Damon Runyon had never used the term. I had sent my papers to the > American Dialect Society member on the newspaper in 1992, and then also > to nearly every single editor. > How about making the corrections in William Safire's Sept. 2000 column > that involves my name and work--my professional reputation? > How come there's a quotation about George Thompson's sex life ("Fit to > Print") and there's no quotation from the African-American stablehands > who gave New York City its nickname? Here we go again. I seem to recall a promise some time back never to mention Safire's treatment of you again. . . . Could we get back to professional work and drop the personal stuff? _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Sep 16 19:58:07 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 15:58:07 EDT Subject: New York Times Corrections Message-ID: In a message dated 9/16/2001 3:01:52 PM, flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU writes: << Could we get back to professional work and drop the personal stuff? >> AMEN!!!! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 16 22:58:07 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 18:58:07 EDT Subject: New York Times Corrections Message-ID: This is professional stuff. Beverly, Ron, how am I supposed to forget what happened? Why don't you people both forget the World Trade Center? "Amen?" As I said before, if you don't want to hear it anymore, write to ADS member William Safire and ask him for an apology and corrections. Other members of other organizations do stuff like that. Lawyers, for example, have a committee of professional responsibility. Beverly, I'm sorry if you have to read a line or two about in these messages about life in New York City. A few years ago, you couldn't stand to read a line or two that my mother died, or that my father died. Please just delete all my messages. From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Sep 16 23:53:10 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 16:53:10 -0700 Subject: miscidemgenation Message-ID: Read all about George DeCarlo's 2001 coin at http://www.geocities.com/njcivilunion/index.html#definition Benjamin Barrett From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 17 05:51:30 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 01:51:30 EDT Subject: "Being Wanded" (Airport Security) Message-ID: Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta, on the PBS News Hour program, said that tougher airport security measures will include more people "being wanded." You know what that means--taken aside by airport security, with a wand scanning your pockets and such. I haven't seen "wand" recorded as a verb. There are quite a few hits on the usual computer databases. (PERSONAL: Under strict orders from my sister, my trip to Georgia/Armenia/Azerbaijan and then to Iran, which had been scheduled for 6 p.m. Monday, is cancelled. The Iran trip was to have been led of UT-Austin's Denise Schmandt-Besserat, author of ANCIENT PERSIA and HOW WRITING CAME ABOUT. Expect loads of food postings from the NY Herald Tribune instead.) From fodde at UNICA.IT Mon Sep 17 08:27:29 2001 From: fodde at UNICA.IT (Luisanna Fodde) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:27:29 +0200 Subject: YOH IN AFRICAN AMERICAN VERNACULAR ENGLISH Message-ID: I have a query which regards the origins of the exclamation YOH in AAVE, present especially in rap music and spoken language Thanks L. Fodde University of cagliari Italy fodde at unica.it ----- Original Message ----- From: Automatic digest processor To: Recipients of ADS-L digests Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 6:01 AM Subject: ADS-L Digest - 14 Sep 2001 to 15 Sep 2001 (#2001-259) > There are 26 messages totalling 1131 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. Civil War (2) > 2. Hollyweed (3) > 3. FW: lame denials > 4. What does ACCENT mean in American English? (5) > 5. Does not compute (4) > 6. markedness slips are showing > 7. lame denials (2) > 8. lame denials (clarification) > 9. Pancaking > 10. "nerd" (1951) in Merriam-Webster files > 11. Here's How! (1927, 1928) & Here's How Again! (1929) > 12. Flying Tigers magazine (1960s) > 13. Boundarylessness > 14. "sleeper cells" (WOTY candidate?) (2) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:44:14 -0500 > From: Mark Odegard > Subject: Re: Civil War > >
>Does anyone know of any books or articles or dictionaries that
>
> discuss the origin of the term "Civil War," in specific reference
>
> to the American conflict of 1861-65?
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
 
>
Not me. But the term 'civil war' itself would seem almost as old as English itself, and most certainly, considerably older than the late unpleasentness. Certainly, it's the actual English lexical term for such events.
>
 
>
Ask me what a WASP liberal feels when he discovers he has a dead Reb ancestor buried in a mass grave in Nancy/Mill Springs, Kentucky. (Answer: you become respectful).

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:04:51 EDT > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Hollyweed > > HOLLYWEED > > "Hollyweed" (for "Hollywood") came up on some net surfing today. It's not in Jonathan Green's CDS or the HDAS. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > "Of the many fabulous coinages of Dr. Seuss," he (Saul Steinmetz--ed.) recalls, "only _grinch_ made it into the common vocabulary, in the transferred sense of 'a spoilsport or killjoy'--and it took 20 years." > ---"Screening the novel words of Harry Potter" by Jeff McQuain, the "On Language" column in the NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE, 16 September 2001. > > "Nerd." > From Dr. Seuss. Made it into the vocabulary almost immediately. Any lexicographer would be able to point this out. > YOU write a letter to the editor and correct it. They didn't believe me recently when I walked over a 1959 ad for "personal computer." The "On Language" column, in particular, wouldn't spell a dead man's name correctly, cite his words correctly, correct a quote of mine, or even talk to me about it. No ADS members would help on my behalf. It took the New York Times four years to even correct Barry "Popick." And even that--my NAME!--involved an extended bit of trickery on the Times's Abuzz network to get right. > I've had it. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:14:32 -0400 > From: Frank Abate > Subject: FW: lame denials > > Arnold Z's comment (cc'd below) reminded me of the attacks on talk radio > hosts like Rush Limbaugh in the wake of the Oklahoma City bombing. As in > that case, here some nearsighted individuals, out of their hatred or anger, > look to place blame in mistaken places. > > Frank Abate > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of sagehen > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:45 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: lame denials > > > arnold zwicky writes: > >3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, > >feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the > >atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to > >"secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful > >intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:00:52 -0400 > From: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: What does ACCENT mean in American English? > > Remember too the research which shows that undergraduates rated a > native speaker of Amnerican Englisbh (with outward Asian identity) as > more difficult to understand than other native speakers of the same > variety. We must always remember that the ear its attached to all of > the brain - not just the part that converts signals to phonemes, then > to morphemes, etc... . > > dInIs > > PS: Jessica Williams' research. University of Illinois Chicago? I can't recall. > > > > >>True enough, but what I was looking at (out of the full discourse > >>context, to be sure) was not just "accent" but "I don't like her > >>accent", which I think for most speakers represents quite a different > >>environment than "the accent is on participation". > > > >Certainly the quotation as read would seem to refer to "accent" in sense #3 > >in the AHD4: > > > ><<3. A characteristic pronunciation, especially: a. One determined by the > >regional or social background of the speaker. b. One determined by the > >phonetic habits of the speaker's native language carried over to his or her > >use of another language.>> > > > >It is not so clear (to me) whether it refers to (a) or to (b). > > > >When I was in college, I heard many complaints from classmates about the > >instructors' "accents", and I don't remember a case where the reference was > >to social or political implications: the complaint generally was simply > >that a "strong" Indian/Russian/Filipino/whatever "accent" made the > >lecture/discussion partially incomprehensible. In some cases, I think > >"accent" subsumes grammatical peculiarities along with "foreign" > >pronunciations, in this sort of casual usage. > > > >-- Doug Wilson > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Department of Linguistics and Languages > Michigan State University > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA > preston at pilot.msu.edu > Office: (517)353-0740 > Fax: (517)432-2736 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:26:58 -0400 > From: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: What does ACCENT mean in American English? > > One would grant Ron that accent has several non-pronuciation senses, > and one would certainly grant that a careful investigation of > discourses will turn up multiplicities of meaning not seen out of > context. But I would also argue that these meanings here are all > rather "marked," at least in the limited context given (althoujgh I > also agree with Ron that a "markedness slip" - we'll now hear no > doubt that Ron and I are the first to use that heady phrase - could > have occurred). > > My main point here, however, is to note that from hours and hours > (and hours) of our folk linguistic recordings (with full contexts, > many reported on concerning just this topic in Niedzielski and > Preston 1999, Folk LInguistics, Mouton de Gruyter) we do indeed find > that "pronunciation" is the primary sense of "accent" for > nonlinguists (although expansion of this to include other aspects of > language - lexicon, grammar) is also common. > > dInIs > > >In a message dated 9/14/2001 12:17:44 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > ><< >>"The only reason I am dropping the class is because of the teacher. I > >> >don't like her accent." > >> > > >The only way I can take the above is the phonological one; I can't > >imagine in being used anywhere I've lived to refer to the content, > >focus, or direction of the course "she" teaches. > > > >Larry > > >> > > > >Think again, Larry, about what people do in actual conversations! > > > >See NEW OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH, s.v. ACCENT, "3. a special or > >particular emphasis: _the accent is on participation_." > > > >I don't have time to do a web search, but I'd guess one could find examples > >of this pretty easily. I will grant you that general ACCENT is not used this > >way without some explicitly defining context. However, as I'm sure Larry > >knows (!), a snippet of conversation divorced from the rest of the > >conversation may well divorce the snippet from the explicitly defining > >context that was implicitly understood by the participants in the > >conversation. > > > >I'd even go farther and suggest that, even if this sense of ACCENT had not > >been explicitly defined by the parties in the conversation, the speaker could > >well have assumed that it was implicit (if she believed that her friend would > >not believe that mere pronunciation would drive her away from a class). > > > >I'd even go farther than that and suggest that, given that the above > >definition of ACCENT is common to native speakers of American English, the > >speaker was at worst making a very low-level performance error such as is > >frequently common in actual conversation, i.e., using a word in one of its > >"marked" senses in a context where it would be most likely to be construed in > >its unmarked or default sense. > > > >Finally, I'm not totally sure that for anyone other than a linguist ACCENT is > >so strongly associated with 'pronunciation' as its default meaning. > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Department of Linguistics and Languages > Michigan State University > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA > preston at pilot.msu.edu > Office: (517)353-0740 > Fax: (517)432-2736 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:19:44 -0400 > From: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Hollyweed > > > "Nerd." > > From Dr. Seuss. Made it into the vocabulary almost immediately. Any > > lexicographer would be able to point this out. > > A more balanced discussion appears in AHD4: > > http://www.bartleby.com/61/32/N0063200.html > > The word could have been taken from among the MANY Seuss nonsense-coinages, > or it could have been someone-else's nonsense-coinage. I would tentatively > prefer the latter explanation, since there are so many someone-elses. What > about Mortimer Snerd? Whence came his surname? And what about "Mad" > magazine's favorite surname, "Furd"? > > -- Doug Wilson > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:29:02 -0400 > From: Fred Shapiro > Subject: Re: Hollyweed > > On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > > "Nerd." > > From Dr. Seuss. Made it into the vocabulary almost immediately. > > Any lexicographer would be able to point this out. > > YOU write a letter to the editor and correct it. > > > I've had it. > > Actually, in my opinion, it's likely that Dr. Seuss did not coin "nerd." > Merriam-Webster has a 1951 citation in its files indicating the word was > already current by that year and making no reference to Seuss (I have seen > the citation, but don't have it handy, perhaps Joanne Despres could post > it). Given the facts that the Seuss usage was 1950 and that the Seuss > usage may be a coincidental occurrence, I would surmise that there was a > slang word "nerd" not originating with Seuss and going back at least to > the late 1940s. > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:58:16 -0400 > From: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Does not compute > > The odd 'ergative' declaration "[Expression X] does not compute" (spoken by > a computer) must have appeared in some old "Star Trek" program or some old > science-fiction movie, I guess. I suppose it means roughly "[Expression X] > cannot be parsed" or "[Expression X] is invalid". It is now used like "... > doesn't make sense" or so, I think. > > Is there any information on the origin of this clumsy declaration? > > It was my unsupported casual impression, ca. 1970 IIRC, that this was an > alteration of "[Operator/variable X] does not commute". > > As I recall, operators which correspond to simultaneously measurable > observables in quantum mechanics must commute ... or something like that. > And in classical dynamics, isn't it sometimes important to determine > whether something-or-other commutes with the Hamiltonian? I suppose this > sense of "commute" is not instantly familiar to the average citizen, but it > might very well have been familiar to an SF-movie technical adviser > (physics and SF nerd) or to an SF author/editor, back in the day. > > [This came up in a recent conversation about 'ergative' constructions such > as "Campbell's Chunky Soup eats like a meal." (Sorry if I'm taking undue > liberties in my use of 'ergative'.)] > > -- Doug Wilson > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:19:59 EDT > From: RonButters at AOL.COM > Subject: markedness slips are showing > > In a message dated 9/15/2001 10:18:34 AM, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > > << One would grant Ron that accent has several non-pronuciation senses, > and one would certainly grant that a careful investigation of > discourses will turn up multiplicities of meaning not seen out of > context. But I would also argue that these meanings here are all > rather "marked," at least in the limited context given (althoujgh I > also agree with Ron that a "markedness slip" - we'll now hear no > doubt that Ron and I are the first to use that heady phrase - could > have occurred). > > My main point here, however, is to note that from hours and hours > (and hours) of our folk linguistic recordings (with full contexts, > many reported on concerning just this topic in Niedzielski and > Preston 1999, Folk LInguistics, Mouton de Gruyter) we do indeed find > that "pronunciation" is the primary sense of "accent" for > nonlinguists (although expansion of this to include other aspects of > language - lexicon, grammar) is also common. > > dInIs >> > > Sure! The difference between a default reading and a nondefault reading is > that the default reading is the one that most often occurs. Duh! > > The point is that in conversation--when the speaker feels certain that the > hearer is going to interpret what the speaker says as one of the nondefault > readings--then a nondefault reading may well be (or even has to be) the one > intended. For example: > > Speaker A: I really like it that she is accenting the course towards > contemporary history. > Speaker B: Well, I'm dropping the course because *I* just don't like her > accent. > > Or what if Speaker A and Speaker B both have heard the instructor speak and > both know that the instructor has no noticeable pronunciational differences > between her speech and the speech of Speakers A and B? > > How can Larry ("I still don't get the 'content' reading") Horn--who teaches > courses in pragmatics--eliminate potential contexts from consideration in > determining the possible range of meanings of the utterance in question? > These aren't far-fetched examples, they are typical of what people do in real > conversations. > > Maybe a different example will help. Take the noun IRON. As a count noun, > IRON would seem to have the default meaning 'appliance used to press > clothing'. In isolation, then, in a sentence such as > > She hit her sister on the head with the iron > > IRON would have the default reading 'appliance used to press clothing'. > > But IRON also can refer to a golf club, though this usage is normally > combined with a number, as in FOUR IRON. > > However, it is fairly easy to construct contexts in which > > She hit her sister on the head with the iron. > > Would unambiguously refer to a golf club--for example, if the incident in > question took place on a golf course. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:16:07 -0600 > From: Victoria Neufeldt > Subject: Re: What does ACCENT mean in American English? > > I believe that the unmarked, basic meaning of 'accent' in the speech > community as a whole is the linguistic one. I'd bet a week's pay that > virtually anyone encountering the word in isolation and asked what it meant > would say something about speech. In the context under discussion, the fact > that the speaker says "her" (instead of "the") makes it pretty clear that > that must have been the meaning here too. It may not have been > specifically a geographical accent or even a non-English one that was > meant -- maybe just a dislike of the general way the teacher spoke that for > some reason grated on the student (who knows what personal associations > might be involved here). > > Victoria > > Victoria Neufeldt > 1533 Early Drive > Saskatoon, Sask. > S7H 3K1 > Canada > > > > > On Friday, September 14, 2001 11:48 AM, RonButters writes: > > In a message dated 9/14/2001 12:17:44 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > > See NEW OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH, s.v. ACCENT, "3. a special or > > particular emphasis: _the accent is on participation_." > > > > I don't have time to do a web search, but I'd guess one could > > find examples > > of this pretty easily. I will grant you that general ACCENT is > > not used this > > way without some explicitly defining context. However, as I'm sure Larry > > knows (!), a snippet of conversation divorced from the rest of the > > conversation may well divorce the snippet from the explicitly defining > > context that was implicitly understood by the participants in the > > conversation. > > > > I'd even go farther and suggest that, even if this sense of ACCENT had not > > been explicitly defined by the parties in the conversation, the > > speaker could > > well have assumed that it was implicit (if she believed that her > > friend would > > not believe that mere pronunciation would drive her away from a class). > > > > I'd even go farther than that and suggest that, given that the above > > definition of ACCENT is common to native speakers of American English, the > > speaker was at worst making a very low-level performance error such as is > > frequently common in actual conversation, i.e., using a word in > > one of its > > "marked" senses in a context where it would be most likely to be > > construed in > > its unmarked or default sense. > > > > Finally, I'm not totally sure that for anyone other than a > > linguist ACCENT is > > so strongly associated with 'pronunciation' as its default meaning. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:43:09 EDT > From: RonButters at AOL.COM > Subject: Re: What does ACCENT mean in American English? > > In a message dated 9/15/01 12:26:09 PM, vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM writes: > > << In the context under discussion, the fact > > that the speaker says "her" (instead of "the") makes it pretty clear that > > that must have been the meaning here too. >> > > Well, see my slip-is-showing examples before you say "must"; better to say, > "... makes it pretty clear that THE MOST LIKELY meaning here IS > 'PRONUNCIATION'." Which is all that I have been trying to say all along. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:52:38 -0400 > From: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: Does not compute > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 10:58:16AM -0400, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > The odd 'ergative' declaration "[Expression X] does not compute" (spoken by > > a computer) must have appeared in some old "Star Trek" program or some old > > science-fiction movie, I guess. I suppose it means roughly "[Expression X] > > cannot be parsed" or "[Expression X] is invalid". It is now used like "... > > doesn't make sense" or so, I think. > > > > Is there any information on the origin of this clumsy declaration? > > The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang says that > it was introduced as a catchphrase by the television show _My Living > Doll_ in 1964. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:01:18 -0400 > From: Gareth Branwyn > Subject: Re: Does not compute > > I believe it was also used on Irwin Allen's "Lost in Space" (1965), > along with "Affirmative!," "Warning! Warning!," and of course, "Danger, > Will Robinson." > > > Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 10:58:16AM -0400, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > > The odd 'ergative' declaration "[Expression X] does not compute" (spoken by > > > a computer) must have appeared in some old "Star Trek" program or some old > > > science-fiction movie, I guess. I suppose it means roughly "[Expression X] > > > cannot be parsed" or "[Expression X] is invalid". It is now used like "... > > > doesn't make sense" or so, I think. > > > > > > Is there any information on the origin of this clumsy declaration? > > > > The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang says that > > it was introduced as a catchphrase by the television show _My Living > > Doll_ in 1964. > > > > Jesse Sheidlower > > OED > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:29:15 EDT > From: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: Civil War > > In a message dated 09/14/2001 12:41:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: > > > Does anyone know of any books or articles or dictionaries that discuss the > > origin of the term "Civil War," in specific reference to the American > > conflict of 1861-65? > > I have a copy of the _Annual Cyclopaedia of the year 1862_ (New York: D. > Appleton & Company, 1863, no ISBN). > > A brief, less-than-thorough thumbing through this book produced innumerable > references to "the war", "this war", and "the present war." There are also > several citations for "insurrection" and "rebellion", e.g. (page 294) a > letter from Secretary of State Seward to the Senate, dated December 19, 1861, > contains "From the beginning of the insurrection..." and page 295 a > resolution offered by Senator Waltman T. Willey of Virginia, also on December > 19, 1861, begins "Resolved, That the existing war, forced upon the county by > the instagotors of the rebellion without justifiable cause or provocation..." > > However, I found the following: > > page 277, article on "Congress, U.S." on December 4, 1861, in the House of > Representatives, William S. Holman of Indiana quoted a resolution of July 22, > 1861 introduced by John J. Crittenden of Kentucky which included the > following words > "That the present deplorable civil war has been forced upon the country by > the disunionists of the Southern States now in revolt against the > consititutional Government..." > > page 270, article on "Congress, Confederate", Senator Lewis T. Wigfall of > Texas is quoted (apparently in paraphrase) as saying "the gentleman was as > much mistaken as Abraham Lincoln or William H. Seward if he thought this was > a revolution---that we were subjects fighting against an established > Government. If we were we would be entitled to the term "rebels." This is > no civil war. It is a war of some sovereign States against other States. > There was civil war in Kentucky, where citizens of the same State were at war > against one another." > > Page 726 article "Public Documents" Message of President Lincoln at the third > session of the Thirty-seventh Contress, December 1, 1862 includes the > following "The civil war which has so radically changed, for the moment, the > occupations and habits of the American people" and "A civil war occurring in > a country where foreigners reside and carry on trade under treaty > stipulations is necessarily frruitful of complaints of the violation of > neutral rights." and (page 727) "The Territories of the United States, with > unimportant exceptions, have remained undisturbed by the civil war". > > - Jim Landau > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:43:28 -0400 > From: Grant Barrett > Subject: Re: lame denials > > On 9/14/01 19:45, "sagehen" wrote: > > > arnold zwicky writes: > >> 3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, > >> feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the > >> atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to > >> "secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful > >> intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". > > > > A friend wrote me that NYT & WP were reporting that Jerry Falwell & Pat > > Robertson had concurred in these just these opinions on the latter's "700 > > Club" (radio? or tv?) but I didn't hear that either had issued denials, > > lame or otherwise! > > Those denials are in today's paper. I can't find it in the online version, > but today's New York Times, page A15, right two columns: > > "Mr. Falwell released a statement yesterday on the controversy, saying, > 'Despite the impression some may have from news reports today, I hold no one > other than the terrorists and the people and nations who have enabled and > harbored them responsible for Tuesday's attacks on this nation.' > > 'I sincerely regret that the comments I made during a long theological > discussion on a Christian television program yesterday were taken out of > their context and reported and that my thoughts--reduced to sound > bites--have detracted from the spirit of this day of mourning.'" > > Robertson had a similar, but shorter denial. > > Part of what Falwell said: "The abortionists have got to bear some burden > for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million > little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, > and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who > are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People > for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize American, I > point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" > > -- > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > http://www.worldnewyork.org/ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:00:17 +0800 > From: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Does not compute > > >... > >[This came up in a recent conversation about 'ergative' constructions such > >as "Campbell's Chunky Soup eats like a meal." (Sorry if I'm taking undue > >liberties in my use of 'ergative'.)] > > > >-- Doug Wilson > > Well, in fact, without making too fine a point on it, yes, there are > some liberties taken here; how undue depends on the theory. For most > who have worried about them, what you call ergative constructions > (and are more generally called unaccusatives) are ultimately distinct > from, although on some level (especially in sharing a "patient > subject") related to, the "middles" exemplified by "the soup that > eats like a meal" (the actual phrase used in the Cambpell ads). The > former (e.g. "The boat sank", "The door closed", "The ice melted", > "The building exploded") do not imply the existence of an agent > responsible for the event in question, although as in each of these > cases, the event may indeed have been caused either by an agent or a > force of nature. The latter ("This bread slices easily", "He don't > scare", "Shakespeare translates with difficulty", "The car is selling > like hotcakes") do have implicit agents, although typically these > cannot be directly expressed the way passive agents can. Middles > also often sound funny if they're not modified with an adverb > (including negation), while unaccusatives/ergatives don't need any > modification. (Yes, you can say "The car sold/drives", but it sounds > funny unless there's a contrastive context and intonation, neither of > which is necessary for "The boat sank". And "Campbell's Chunky Soup > eats" sounds like a failed attempt at an insult.) > > larry > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:23:54 -0400 > From: sagehen > Subject: Re: lame denials (clarification) > > I see from Grant Barrett's post that I need to proofread better. I > certainly DIDN'T mean "these just opinions." Falwell's disingenuous > retraction is ridiculous. He's saying, in effect, he doesn't really mean > it, it's just part of his doctrine. I'm happy to say I would qualify for > most of his opprobrium, but feel neither more nor less responsible than any > other citizen of this privileged country for Tuesday's horror. > > > wrote: > >> A friend wrote me that NYT & WP were reporting that Jerry Falwell & Pat > >> Robertson had concurred in these just these opinions on the latter's "700 > >> Club" (radio? or tv?) but I didn't hear that either had issued denials, > >> lame or otherwise! > > >...Falwell said...... "I really believe that the pagans, > >and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who > >are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People > >for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize American, I > >point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" > > A. Murie > > -- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:32:07 EDT > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Pancaking > > From the LOS ANGELES TIMES, 12 September 2001, pg. A4: > > 'The technical term is progressive collapse--the slang term is pancaking," said Ron Klemencic, president of Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire, the Seattle firm that engineered the World Trade Center. "What basically happens is that one floor falls on top of the floors below it, and with one floor falling on top of another there's no way to stop it." > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:06:13 -0400 > From: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: lame denials > > At 03:43 PM 9/15/01 -0400, you wrote: > >On 9/14/01 19:45, "sagehen" wrote: > > > > > arnold zwicky writes: > > >> 3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, > > >> feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the > > >> atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to > > >> "secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful > > >> intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". > > > > > > A friend wrote me that NYT & WP were reporting that Jerry Falwell & Pat > > > Robertson had concurred in these just these opinions on the latter's "700 > > > Club" (radio? or tv?) but I didn't hear that either had issued denials, > > > lame or otherwise! > > > >Those denials are in today's paper. I can't find it in the online version, > >but today's New York Times, page A15, right two columns: > > > >"Mr. Falwell released a statement yesterday on the controversy, saying, > >'Despite the impression some may have from news reports today, I hold no one > >other than the terrorists and the people and nations who have enabled and > >harbored them responsible for Tuesday's attacks on this nation.' > > > >'I sincerely regret that the comments I made during a long theological > >discussion on a Christian television program yesterday were taken out of > >their context and reported and that my thoughts--reduced to sound > >bites--have detracted from the spirit of this day of mourning.'" > > > >Robertson had a similar, but shorter denial. > > > >Part of what Falwell said: "The abortionists have got to bear some burden > >for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million > >little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, > >and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who > >are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People > >for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize American, I > >point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" > > > >-- > > > >Grant Barrett > >gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > >http://www.worldnewyork.org/ > > E. L. Doctorow, on NPR this morning, had it right: He said Falwell is no > different from the perpetrators of this horrible week when he justifies the > murder of thousands. > > > _____________________________________________ > Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics > Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 > Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 > http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 18:18:35 -0500 > From: Gerald Cohen > Subject: "nerd" (1951) in Merriam-Webster files > > Fred Shapiro today requested Merriam-Webster's Joanne Despres to > post the 1951 citation of "nerd": > > >Actually, in my opinion, it's likely that Dr. Seuss did not coin "nerd." > >Merriam-Webster has a 1951 citation in its files indicating the word was > >already current by that year and making no reference to Seuss (I have seen > >the citation, but don't have it handy, perhaps Joanne Despres could post > >it). Given the facts that the Seuss usage was 1950 and that the Seuss > >usage may be a coincidental occurrence, I would surmise that there was a > >slang word "nerd" not originating with Seuss and going back at least to > >the late 1940s. > > > >Fred Shapiro > > I checked my files on "nerd" and find the following e-mail > from Joanne Despres: > > >Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 > >From: "Joanne M. Despres" > >Subject: Re: Wuss & others > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > >No, the 1951 citation in our files does not have anything to do with > >the Dr. Seuss character; it is the first use of _nerd_ we've been able to > >find that applies to any person having the characteristics > >described in the definition ("an unstylish, unattractive, or socially > >inept person"). The Seuss critter is, however, mentioned in our etymology > >as a possible source for the generic term. > > > >The citation, by the way, comes from Newsweek (October 8, 1951, p. > >28) and reads as follows: > > > >"In Detroit, someone who once would be called a drip or a square is > >now, regrettably, a nerd, or in a less severe case, a scurve." > > > >Joanne Despres > >Merriam-Webster > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:49:09 EDT > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Here's How! (1927, 1928) & Here's How Again! (1929) > > HERE'S HOW! > New and Revised Edition > By Judge Jr. (Norman Anthony--ed.) > The John Day Company, NY > 1927, 1928 > > Could it be possible that I missed this book? I found it while looking up another of Anthony's books. > FYI: there was Prohibition at this time. > > The Apple Jackrabbit...11 > Everything But--...12 > The White Lily...13 > The Dodge Special...14 > Little Willie...15 > The Mamie Taylor...16 (OED should have this drink--ed.) > The White Cargo...17 > The Royal Smile...18 > The Nose Dive...19 > The Magnolia Blossom...20 > The Judgette...21 > The Grape Vine...22 > Mint Fizz...23 > The Golden Gate...24 > Oh, Henry!...25 > Judge, Jr...26 > Silver Fizz...27 > Silver Stallion...28 > The Los Angeles...29 > Polo Cocktail...30 > The Corn Popper...31 > The Mule's Hind Leg...32 > The Nevada...33 > Cornell Special...34 > The Philadelphia Scotchman...35 > The French '75...36 > The Cubano...37 > De Riguer...38 > Alexander's Sister...39 > Bacardi Punch...40 > Bacardi Cocktail...41 > The Wop...42 > Barbary Coast...43 > Brandy Gump...44 > The Hurricane...45 > The Earthquake...46 > The Frankenjack...47 > The Swiss Itch...48 > Old Reliables...49 > The Crow...51 > Louisiana Fizz...52 > Champagne Cocktail...53 > The Lion...54 > Whiskey Sour...55 > A Hot Toddy...56 > The Cowboy...57 > An Egg Nog...58 > The Dacqueri Cocktail...59 > Jack Rose Cocktail...60 > Attaboy Cocktail...61 > The Mint Julep...62 > > Pg. 12: > _Everything but--_ > THIS little drink is christened thusly because it contains everything but the kitchen stove! > 1/4 Scotch; > 1/4 Gordon water; > 1/4 lemon juice; > 1/4 orange juice; > 1 egg; > 1 teaspoonful of Apricot brandy; > powdered sugar. > > Pg. 32: > _The Mule's hind leg_ (See archives for Moscow Mule--ed.) > THIS title is not an exaggeration--we know--we tried it! > 1/5 Gordon water; > 1/5 benedictine; > 1/5 Applejack; > 1/5 Apricot brandy; > 1/5 maple syrup. > > Pg. 47: > _The frankenjack_ > INVENTED by the two proprietors of a very, very well-known Speakeasy in New York City. (Jack & Charlie's 21?--ed.) > 1/3 Gordon water; > 1/3 French vermouth; > 1/6 apricot brandy; > 1/6 Cointreau. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > HERE'S HOW AGAIN! > By Judge Jr. > The John Day Company, NY > 1929 > > APPLEJACK DRINKS > Eve's Apple...13 > The Pump...14 > The Parachute...15 > The Tunney...16 > APPLEJACK AND BRANDY DRINKS > The Swan Song...17 > The Lightning Bug...18 > BACARDI DRINKS > Southern Honeysuckle...19 > The Red Flag...20 > The South Sea...21 > Leave Me With a Smile...22 > BRANDY DRINKS > The Upanattem...23 > The Yegg...24 > The Monte Cristo...25 > The Cloven Hoof...26 > The Zowie...27 > Side Car...28 > The Million Dollar Cocktail...29 > GIN DRINKS > The Kummel Ye Faithful...30 > The Bronx Express...31 > The Transatlantic Flyer...32 > The Gray Dawn...33 > The Barney...34 > The Ciro...35 > The Hooperdooper...36 > The Peacherino...37 > Peach Dream...38 > The Straight Eight...39 > The Spearmint...40 > The Oliver Twist...41 > The Razzberry...42 > The Highbrook...43 > The Green-eyed Monster...44 > GIN-BACARDI DRINKS > Palm Beach Cocktail...45 > RYE DRINKS > The Revolving Door...46 > Whiskey Sour...47 > Ward Eight...48 > The Sunkist...49 > The Snake-in-the-grass...50 > SCOTCH DRINKS > The Prodigal...51 > The Thistle...52 > Hell's Belles...53 > The Beautifier...54 > The Black Eye...55 > MISCELLANEOUS > The Kitchen Stove...56 > The Mussolini...57 > The Alps...58 > The Norman...59 > The Sweet Mama...60 > Hot Chocolate!...61 > The Tomato Cocktail...62 > > ("SIDECAR" SIDEBAR: I had to request this microfilm twice before I got it--about three hours later. Then, the library closed. I'll be out of NYC, so I can't immediately copy the entries. However, it appears to antedate "Sidecar." John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK has: "The bar's owner, Harry MacElhone, claimed the drink was concocted in 1931 for a customer who always arrived in a motocycle sidecar. But the sidecar appears in several places in Carl Van Vechten's 1931 short story collection, _Parties_." Sidecar supposedly was invented during WWI--ed.) > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:31:39 EDT > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Flying Tigers magazine (1960s) > > (ADDENDUM TO LAST POST: OED has "Sidecar" in 1928.) > > The NYPL gave me just reel two of ANNUAL PICTORIAL BULLETIN, 14TH AIR FORCE ASSOCIATION, FLYING TIGERS. It's an annual. > > 1962 > Pg. 9: A "B.S. Artist" at work. > > 1963 > Pg. 2: ...singing: > "We never falter, we never fail, > We sober up on wood alcohol..." > > 1963 > Pg. 6: In the upper left, Col. Robert L. "God is My Co-Pilot" Scott, Jr., of the 23rd Fighter Group, one of our earliest and greatest aces, helps S/Sgt. R. Fuller and Sgt. J. Teague load his guns in preparation for Scott's final Jap hunt before leaving for the United States in January, 1943. > > 1963 > Pg. 7: But they also served who acted as "honey-dippers" (left center)--one of the less glamorous occupations in the Far East--and female grain carrier (lower left). > > 1963 > Pg. 13: Milk and Cookie Bar. > > 1963 > Pg. 20: ...soup-and-fish-clad oilman Gene Ledeker (22 BS)(his motto: It taked but little toil--to get a goil--if you strike oil!)... > > 1964 > Pg. 9: ...such platitudes as "You Can't Win 'Em All", "There's One in Every Crowd" and "Even Babe Ruth Struck Out Over 1000 Times." > > 1964 > Pg. 20: ...a card over the bar that reads, "If This Sign is Blurred You Either Need Stronger Glasses or Weaker Drinks"... > > 1965 > Pg. 7: Not to be outdone by these refinements of an ancient civilization, a Pentagon-based masochist offered his own version of the "Chinese Torture treatment, lower left. Captioned "Men of Gen. Chennault's 14th USAF eagerly await chance to buy beer at first ration in China"... > > 1968 > Pg. 10: Next we see, complete with moat, the Imperial Palace in Tokyo, where the first few exotic days and nights were spent (in Tokyo, that is, not the Palace) and, lastly, the grounds around the Chinsanzo Restaurant, where our first Japanese meal together--a Mongolian Barbecue--was voraciously consumed with surprisingly favorable results. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:29:30 -0400 > From: Thomas Paikeday > Subject: Re: What does ACCENT mean in American English? > > A very interesting discussion. > > I think more evidence is needed in regard to what is generally > understood and more of the context of "I don't like her accent" to > determine the intended meaning here. A web search may indeed prove > useful in regard to the first point. Perhaps Sonja Lanehart could supply > more of the particular context in which the sentence was uttered. I do > think it is worthwhile flogging this horse. > > RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > > In a message dated 9/14/2001 12:17:44 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > > << >>"The only reason I am dropping the class is because of the teacher. I > > > >don't like her accent." > > > > > > The only way I can take the above is the phonological one; I can't > > imagine in being used anywhere I've lived to refer to the content, > > focus, or direction of the course "she" teaches. > > > > Larry > > >> > > > > Think again, Larry, about what people do in actual conversations! > > > > See NEW OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH, s.v. ACCENT, "3. a special or > > particular emphasis: _the accent is on participation_." > > > > I don't have time to do a web search, but I'd guess one could find examples > > of this pretty easily. I will grant you that general ACCENT is not used this > > way without some explicitly defining context. However, as I'm sure Larry > > knows (!), a snippet of conversation divorced from the rest of the > > conversation may well divorce the snippet from the explicitly defining > > context that was implicitly understood by the participants in the > > conversation. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 21:27:32 EDT > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Boundarylessness > > "Boundarylessness." > The big story this week was going to be the deapture of General Electric chairman Jack Welch. "Boundarylessness" was a key word at GE. CNN's Lou Dobbs mentioned that this word is not in any dictionary. > See "Neutron Jack Exits" in last Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES Week-in-Review, 9 September 2001, pg. 18, col. 1. Other key terms are "fix it, clost it, or sell it" and "creative destruction." > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:12:26 +0800 > From: Laurence Horn > Subject: "sleeper cells" (WOTY candidate?) > > I just heard (Retired?) General Clark, who I remember from the Bosnia > war and who is now a CNN military consultant, refer to the existence > of "sleeper cells" in the terrorist network. A google search turned > up this earlier use in a column at > http://www.onlinecolumnist.com/032601.html called "Terrorism's New > Malignancy" by John M. Curtis that warned last March rather > prophetically, "Entering a bold new age of global terrorism, the U.S. > is no longer immune to subversion and infiltration, requiring > heightened security and adroit counter-measures": > ================= > When a suicide bomber blasted a 40-foot long hole in the hull of the > U.S.S. guided missile destroyer Cole in the Yemen port of Aden > killing 17 seamen, suspicions were raised about a "sleeper cell" > being activated in the Arabian peninsula. All CIA reports pointed in > the direction of Osama bin Laden. Dismissing this fact makes good > public relations, but doesn't acknowledge the reality that most > recent terrorism against U.S. interests leads to Kabul. > ============= > Other cites refer directly to the current attack and the > investigation of the perpetrators. I don't know how far back the > term goes. There are earlier medical uses of "sleeper cell" > (referring to cancer), but I don't know if this is a coincidence. > > larry > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:38:21 -0400 > From: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "sleeper cells" (WOTY candidate?) > > I think "sleeper cell" means simply a cell of sleepers. "Cell" meaning > "small group [of spies/subversives/etc.]" -- back in the day, it was > usually "Communist cell", and I think this type of organization was > considered characteristic of Communists -- is cited from 1925 in my OED. > "Sleeper" = "dormant spy/saboteur" is cited from 1955 in my OED, but I > think it might be older. AHD4 gives good definitions. > > -- Doug Wilson > > ------------------------------ > > End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Sep 2001 to 15 Sep 2001 (#2001-259) > ************************************************************ > > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Sep 17 11:00:01 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:00:01 -0400 Subject: "Being Wanded" (Airport Security) In-Reply-To: <54.1afe928b.28d6e963@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > I haven't seen "wand" recorded as a verb. There are quite a few > hits on the usual computer databases. I have heard "wand" as a verb for years in reference to barcode readers. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Sep 17 12:49:34 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:49:34 EDT Subject: YOH IN AFRICAN AMERICAN VERNACULAR ENGLISH Message-ID: In a message dated 9/17/01 4:27:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, fodde at UNICA.IT writes: > I have a query which regards the origins of the exclamation YOH in AAVE, > present especially in rap music and spoken language I can't tell you anything about the origins, but I'd like to make a note on the spelling. For about two years I shared an office with an African-American named Pete Chandler (now unfortunately deceased). He used the word "yo" so often that he was called "Yo Pete" and somebody placed a sign by his desk reading "Yo Pete". Pete's usage of "yo" was considered a personal speech habit and nobody associated it with AAVE. The point is that Pete and everyone around him used the spelling "yo" rather than "yoh". The only use of "Yoh" I have ever seen is as a Chinese surname. There is an old English phrase "yo ho ho", stereotyped as sailor's lingo. This expression is old enough to appear in a folk song "The Eddystone Light". One wonders if Africans being brought from Africa to the New World as slaves heard English-speaking sailors saying "yo ho ho." - Jim Landau From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Mon Sep 17 14:15:59 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:15:59 +0100 Subject: YOH IN AFRICAN AMERICAN VERNACULAR ENGLISH Message-ID: Surely _yo!_ (and I agree, never _yoh!_) is Spanish in origin. Or at least in its AAVE use. However one should note Louise Pound (American Speech II:3 [1926]): 'Popular Variants of "Yes"': Yip, yep, yap, yop, yahp, yup, yurp, yis, yuss, yays, yass, yahss, yazz, yahzz, ye-us, ye-yuss, yeh, ye-ah, yessir (yes sir), yea bo, yah, yeth, yum, yo, yaw, yezz, etc. Jonathon Green From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Sep 17 14:31:53 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:31:53 EDT Subject: YOH IN AFRICAN AMERICAN VERNACULAR ENGLISH Message-ID: In a message dated 9/17/01 10:20:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK writes: > Surely _yo!_ ...is Spanish in origin. I'm curious as to your evidence that "yo" is from Spanish. Also, which dialect of Spanish? In the Castilian and New World dialects, "yo" means "I" and the word for "yes" is "si" (with an acute accent over the "i", so distinguish it from "si" meaning "if".) - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 17 14:48:12 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:48:12 EDT Subject: Fwd: RE: Culinary Archives & Museum (Possible Research here) Message-ID: Ah! Life is full of surprises. If anyone wants a specific culinary research request before I visit the Culinary Archives & Museum, let me know. --Barry "Not in Iran" Popik -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Barbara Kuck Subject: RE: Culinary Archives & Museum (Possible Research here) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:16:04 -0400 Size: 2628 URL: From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Sep 17 15:05:00 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:05:00 -0400 Subject: Fwd: RE: Culinary Archives & Museum (Possible Research here) In-Reply-To: <13c.18f279e.28d7672c@aol.com> Message-ID: Ah! Life is also full of wonders. "Once a year I review the file [of my e-mails]... ." dInIs > Ah! Life is full of surprises. > If anyone wants a specific culinary research request before I >visit the Culinary Archives & Museum, let me know. > >--Barry "Not in Iran" Popik > >Return-Path: >Received: from rly-xc05.mx.aol.com (rly-xc05.mail.aol.com >[172.20.105.138]) by air-xc01.mail.aol.com (v80.17) with ESMTP id >MAILINXC14-0917101631; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:16:31 -0400 >Received: from gaspee.jwu.edu (students.jwu.edu [198.112.1.19]) by >rly-xc05.mx.aol.com (v80.21) with ESMTP id >MAILRELAYINXC54-0917101622; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:16:22 -0400 >Received: by gaspee.jwu.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) > id ; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:16:13 -0400 >Message-ID: <415D42EC88D4D411A128009027AF978C0113FBF9 at gaspee.jwu.edu> >From: Barbara Kuck >To: "'Bapopik at aol.com '" >Subject: RE: Culinary Archives & Museum (Possible Research here) >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:16:04 -0400 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > > Dear Barry, >The museum is in the process of relocating to a new location. And I never >check my personal email, unfortunatley it appears the student who was >responsibile for checking my email missed yours. Once a year I review the >file and just now came accross your messages. Please let me know how I can >be of help to you. > >Barbara. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bapopik at aol.com >To: bkuck at jwu.edu >Sent: 2/8/2001 2:57 AM >Subject: Fwd: Culinary Archives & Museum (Possible Research here) > > My name is Barry Popik. I'm a member of the American Dialect >Society, a member of the American Name Society, and a contributor to the >Oxford English Dictionary, Dictionary of American Regional English, >Merriam-Webster, and other dictionaries. > I was profiled in the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 2 January 2001, pg. A20, >for my work on "hot dog" and other etymologies. As the article states, >many of my food etymologies (Danish pastry, Thousand Island dressing, >Chicken a la King, Caesar salad, Beef Wellington, Beef Stroganoff, >blintz, bagel, knish, gyro, smoothie, iced tea, pina colada, martini...) >can be found at www.americandialect.org, in the ADS-L archives. > Most of my work is out of the New York Public Library and the Library >of Congress, but I've also been around the country and to over 50 >foreign countries. > I have always intended to visit Johnson & Wales. > Is you catalog online? I'm interested in everything, but I'll >probably want to concentrate on the food & drink menus in your >collection. > Mondays or Thursdays this month or in early March are best. > >Barry Popik >225 East 57th Street, Apt. 7P >New York, NY 10022 >(212) 308-2635 >Bapopik at aol.com > <> -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU Mon Sep 17 15:03:05 2001 From: mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:03:05 -0500 Subject: Teaching: updating AAVE? Message-ID: Is anyone interested in sharing ideas about updating our approaches to the verbal system of African American (Vernacular) English in introductory linguistics courses? I'm looking at my copies of handouts from the talks Lisa Green and Charles DeBose gave at the symposium on recent advances in research in this area at the 2001 LSA meeting. (I'm missing some handouts from other relevant talks from that symposium.) I would like to move towards this approach of viewing AAVE as a system, rather than focusing on specific features that distinguish it from other varieties. For one thing, this approach should make it clearer that studying AAVE isn't about "correcting errors". Here are the questions I have so far: - How much information would it make sense to include in a, say, week-long unit in an introductory course? Would all of Lisa Green's impressively massive-looking outline of verbal paradigms be too overwhelming? - Would including technical terminology ("the tense-mood aspect markers gon', finta, done, been, and be, do not assign theta-roles" (DeBose), or Green's "remote past perfect resultant state") instill respect for the complexity of AAVE, or would it just be incomprehensible? - I'm having trouble finding additional examples of the various verb forms (is there an obvious resource that I'm missing?) and, when I do find examples, I'm not confident that I can match one author's example to a structure in another author's paradigm, especially since different varieties of AAVE might be represented. Any feedback on these questions, or the issue in general? Thanks in advance. If you get this message more than once, I apologize for the inconvenience. -Mai _________________________________ Mai Kuha mkuha at bsuvc.bsu.edu Department of English (765) 285-8410 Ball State University From douglas at NB.NET Mon Sep 17 15:07:05 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:07:05 -0400 Subject: YOH In-Reply-To: <114.4aaa40e.28d76359@aol.com> Message-ID: I presented my perhaps sophomoric thoughts on "yo" on 4 May 2001 on this list. Nobody else seemed interested at that time. I reproduce an excerpt: ---------- (1) "Yo" [multipurpose interjection] = "hey": given by OED from as early as 1420 (as "3aw" ["3" = yogh]) (2) "Walyo" [term of address] = "young man", prob. < Italian (dialect [e.g., maybe Lucano?]) "uaglio" = "boy" (3) "Yo" [response] = "yes"/"present" [military etc. from WW II or earlier] [I speculate < "yeah"/"yes" altered for loud utterance] (4) "Yo" = dialect version of "you", "your", and probably "y'all" (5) "Yo" < Spanish term of address "yo": asserted in the Cassell dictionary [I'm not familiar with this, but I am familiar with a multipurpose interjection "Coño!" with last-syllable stress ...] The late-20th-century use as a [masculine] greeting may come from a conflation of any or all of these. ---------- -- Doug Wilson From Mark_Mandel at LHSL.COM Mon Sep 17 15:12:44 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at LHSL.COM (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:12:44 -0400 Subject: lame denials Message-ID: Grant quotes the irreverend Mr. Foulwell -- go ahead, tell me not to go overboard -- as saying: >>>>> "The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize American, I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" <<<<< Mr. F., you point that finger in my face and I will break it. -- Mark A. Mandel From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Sep 17 11:52:02 2001 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:52:02 -0400 Subject: Nerd cite Message-ID: Here's the requested quotation: Nerds and Scurves: In Detroit, someone who once would be called a drip or a square is now, regrettably, a nerd, or in a less severe case, a scurve. Newsweek October 8, 1951 Page 28 Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Sep 17 12:06:33 2001 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:06:33 -0400 Subject: lame denials Message-ID: If anyone's interested in better appreciating Rev. Falwell's own considerable skill in reinterpreting language taken from its original context, check out a film entitled "The Eyes of Tammy Fay." It's quite interesting! Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From rwheeler at CNU.EDU Mon Sep 17 16:36:16 2001 From: rwheeler at CNU.EDU (Rebecca S. Wheeler) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:36:16 -0400 Subject: Teaching: updating AAVE? Message-ID: Dear Mai, Glad to hear you're working in this arena! see responses inside. Mai Kuha wrote: > Is anyone interested in sharing ideas about updating our approaches to > the verbal system of African American (Vernacular) English in introductory > linguistics courses? > > I'm looking at my copies of handouts from the talks Lisa Green and Charles > DeBose gave at the symposium on recent advances in research in this area > at the 2001 LSA meeting. (I'm missing some handouts from other relevant > talks from that symposium.) I would like to move towards this approach of > viewing AAVE as a system, rather than focusing on specific features that > distinguish it from other varieties. For one thing, this approach should > make it clearer that studying AAVE isn't about "correcting errors". Here > are the questions I have so far: > yes, moving off of the position that errors/problems/issues are involved is indeed a central one. > > - How much information would it make sense to include in a, say, week-long > unit in an introductory course? Would all of Lisa Green's impressively > massive-looking outline of verbal paradigms be too overwhelming? It depends what material the students already command. Thus, will they have previously taken a Structure of English course, so that they will know NP and VP structuring? Or is this intro ling course a first and independent experience for them? As for how much to offer the students, I believe that if we want students to change lifelong HABITS of mind, that they must truly comprehend and confront the material, well, close up and personal so to speak. This suggests fewer examples that they understand deeply, rather than more arcane vocabulary tht will roll off them with little effect. Thus, for example, I anchor my Language and Teaching students in their stereotypic assumptions about error. I present an example like "He be watching tv" and ask the students to comment. They all come out with "broken English, poor grammar, error, problem, etc." Then I present a real life example like this one, from a student: 1. Student email Hi Professor Wheeler, I just wanted to let you know that I had an encounter with AAVE the other day. Here is a conversation between me, my husband, and my nephew. My nephew and I were picking my husband up from work. So my husband gets into the car and my nephew asks him "Uncle Poo-Poo (his nickname) y’all be playing basketball over there?" (looking at the basketball goal in the parking lot ) My husband replied "Naw man, we don't be playing, but we play sometimes.” __________________________ We then contrast AAVE aspect structure and English aspect structure, letting the patterns emerge. I then revisit their initial assessment of error, pointing out that we have a systematic pattern afoot here. Here's another example, from Noma LeMoine's __English for Your Success: A developmental Program for African American Students__ Teacher:“Bobby, what does your mother do every day?” Bobby: “She be at home.” Teacher: “You mean, she is at home.” Bobby: “No, she ain’t, cause she took my grandmother to the hospital this morning.” Teacher: “You know what I meant. You are not supposed to say, ‘she be at home.’ You are to say, ‘she is at home.” Bobby: “Why you trying to make me lie. She ain’t at home.” English for your Success: A Language Developmental Program for African American Children. Noma LeMoine. p. 1 Excerpting from a powerpoint presentation I have on this topic: The case of “Be” Teacher saw error, a problem needing correction. The boy’s language was wrong in her system. Boy saw the grammar of his home speech She be at home = She is usually at home. She is at home = She is home right now. The teacher’s language was wrong in his system. The teacher didn’t know the home speech grammar The boy didn’t know the school speech grammar Confusion and miscommunication resulted _________________ I believe that in order to truly change off of the deficit approach to language, our students must deeply grasp a few patterns. Then after they do, we can offer them a sketch, outline of the broader grammar (as you suggest, Mai), and they will understand that the same kind of deep pattern inheres there. > > - Would including technical terminology ("the tense-mood aspect markers > gon', finta, done, been, and be, do not assign theta-roles" (DeBose), or > Green's "remote past perfect resultant state") instill respect for the > complexity of AAVE, or would it just be incomprehensible? the latter. Besides, they don't believe us linguists just because we're linguists. They believe their gut level assessments, UNTIL the point when we bring them to EXPERIENCE something else. > > - I'm having trouble finding additional examples of the various verb forms > (is there an obvious resource that I'm missing?) and, when I do find > examples, I'm not confident that I can match one author's example to a > structure in another author's paradigm, especially since different > varieties of AAVE might be represented. There are a ton of resources on this. Check out Smitherman 2000, Wolfram, Adger & Christian ¨Dialects in Schools and Communities" 1999; Perry, Delpit, "The Real Ebonics Debate" 1998, Wolfram, Estes Schilling, "American English" not to mention all the books by Rickford, Baugh, Labov, etc. (my bibliography is at home). Check the website for the Center for Applied Linguistics, under their Ebonics headings, and also the ERIC Clearinghouse on Languages and Linguistics. By the way, I've developed a course in Dialects in the Schools, which draws on actual writing of inner city 3rd graders (manifesting a great deal of AAVE). With a prerequisite of Advanced Grammar (structure of English), students read Wolfram, Delpit, and a couple of other sources on dialects and AAVE, and then apply their knowledge of syntax to actually do a syntactic analysis of kid AAVE patterns, all with an eye to teaching code-switching within the public schools, so that kids become explicitly aware of the contrasts between various home speeches and school speech. By the way, the local school system is moving to adopt this linguistically informed vantage on language arts K - 12. I will be training the leaders of the school system in intensive residency programs to embody such a vantage and technique. Ciao, Rebecca Wheeler > > Any feedback on these questions, or the issue in general? > > Thanks in advance. If you get this message more than once, I apologize for > the inconvenience. > > -Mai > _________________________________ > Mai Kuha mkuha at bsuvc.bsu.edu > Department of English (765) 285-8410 > Ball State University -- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Rebecca S. Wheeler, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of English Christopher Newport University 1 University Place Newport News, VA 23606-2998 Editor, Syntax in the Schools The Journal of the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar (ATEG), an Assembly of the NCTE http://www.ateg.org/ phone: (757) 594-8891; fax: (757) 594-8870 email: rwheeler at cnu.edu ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Mon Sep 17 13:36:13 2001 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:36:13 -0400 Subject: "Being Wanded" (Airport Security) Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:00:01 -0400 Fred Shapiro > > > I haven't seen "wand" recorded as a verb. > I have heard "wand" as a verb for years in reference to barcode > readers. Or, "Ah gotta wand mah watch." D From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Sep 17 05:14:13 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:14:13 +0800 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:12 AM -0400 9/17/01, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >Grant quotes the irreverend Mr. Foulwell -- go ahead, tell me not to go >overboard -- as saying: > >>>>>> >"The abortionists have got to bear some burden >for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million >little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, >and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who >are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People >for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize American, I >point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" ><<<<< > Certainly the perpetrators of the recent attacks must be godless secular types, since obviously no religious believers could be capable of such infamous...oops, never mind. From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Sep 17 17:19:09 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:19:09 -0700 Subject: YOH In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010917110154.00b34560@nb.net> Message-ID: I've heard "yo" when it seems to be a reduction of "you all." It's used by an Asian-American friend when he's using AAVE. Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Douglas G. Wilson > > I presented my perhaps sophomoric thoughts on "yo" on 4 > May 2001 on this > list. Nobody else seemed interested at that time. I > reproduce an excerpt: > > ---------- > > (1) "Yo" [multipurpose interjection] = "hey": given by > OED from as early as > 1420 (as "3aw" ["3" = yogh]) > > (2) "Walyo" [term of address] = "young man", prob. < > Italian (dialect > [e.g., maybe Lucano?]) "uaglio" = "boy" > > (3) "Yo" [response] = "yes"/"present" [military etc. from > WW II or earlier] > [I speculate < "yeah"/"yes" altered for loud utterance] > > (4) "Yo" = dialect version of "you", "your", and probably "y'all" > > (5) "Yo" < Spanish term of address "yo": asserted in the > Cassell dictionary > [I'm not familiar with this, but I am familiar with a multipurpose > interjection "Coño!" with last-syllable stress ...] From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Sep 17 19:28:38 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:28:38 -0400 Subject: Fwd: RE: Culinary Archives & Museum (Possible Research here) Message-ID: Dear Barry (and any interested others): I am looking for additional examples and further information on _spango_ (See Dictionary of Americanisms, p. 1603). Regards, David Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM Mon Sep 17 19:56:05 2001 From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Pearsons, Enid) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:56:05 -0400 Subject: "being have" Message-ID: Isn't there a certain amount of apheresis documented for AAVE that would account for the dropping of the initial syllable in "behave"? > -----Original Message----- > From: George Thompson [mailto:george.thompson at NYU.EDU] > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 1:43 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "being have" > > > This debate is going beyond what I had anticipated. > > In the context of the song, "She just won't have" undoubtedly > means "she just won't act in a decorous manner because she is too > spirited, too full of the spirit of jazz". > > If we do not derive the statement "She just won't have" from the > expression "be have" (= "act nice"), then from what idiom do we derive > it? > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African > Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lynne Murphy > Date: Friday, September 7, 2001 9:07 am > Subject: Re: "being have" > > > --On Thursday, September 6, 2001 7:31 pm -0400 George Thompson > > wrote: > > > > > Lynne Murphy objects that in the passage > > > "She came in on the Charleston wave, / What I told > you, she just > > > won't have" > > > "there's no 'be' there--so I don't think this is a case of 'to > > be have' > > > at all. " > > > > > > But "will" (won't) is the future tense of "be". So that in this > > > instance the idea of "being have" is so assimilated that the > > verb has > > > been adapted. > > > > I don't see this at all. I parse 'being haive' as be + adj or > > adv, and one > > can't saw "I won't happy" or "I won't there"--you've gotta have > > the 'be'. > > > > > > > > > > I'll concede that this analysis/joke on of "behave" is > sufficiently > > > obvious that it may have been invented ndependently many times. I > > > think I don't concede that "she just won't have" should be read > > as "she > > > just won't 'have" ("behave" truncated of its first syllable). > > > > Yeah, Arnold's probably right on this point. > > > > Lynne > > > > > > > > M Lynne Murphy > > Lecturer in Linguistics > > School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences > > University of Sussex > > Brighton BN1 9QH > > UK > > > > phone +44-(0)1273-678844 > > fax +44-(0)1273-671320 > > > From mnewman at QC.EDU Mon Sep 17 20:39:11 2001 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:39:11 -0400 Subject: YOH In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010917110154.00b34560@nb.net> Message-ID: Frank McCourt mentions a usage of 'yo' among stable hands to call horses in the 1940s, I think. Its vocative use might have spread from there. Currently, it maintains that use among almost all young New Yorkers. It is also used by many as a kind of emphasis marker (I'm not sure of the technical term here-not my area) not unlike the Straights English "la-" or for that matter the peninsular Spanish "tio" or Mexican "guey" which also share vocative uses. e.g. That Falwell's such a fool, yo. In that usage the 'yo' is downstressed. -- Michael Newman Assistant Professor of Applied Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 From conversa at IAC.NET Mon Sep 17 21:18:50 2001 From: conversa at IAC.NET (Conversa) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:18:50 -0400 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okl-word at JUNO.COM Mon Sep 17 22:24:58 2001 From: okl-word at JUNO.COM (L oki) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:24:58 EDT Subject: Bapopik Message-ID: To everyone on this list _except B.A.Popik: As an amateur without academic credentials, I've been very hesitant to comment on a person who is apparently a noted authority, but frankly I have been annoyed with Mr. Popik's voluminous and seemingly immaterial comments on such things as foreign terms not included in OED, imagined personal slights from people with better things to do, and long-winded excerpts from ephemera whose ephemeral status is well-deserved. There have been some gems in his material, but not enough to warrant the dreck he has produced, and his flippancy towards the recent disaster was the final straw. While people were hurting was not the time to complain, but now that recovery has begun, I shall make this statement. I have been, and shall continue to be, deleting any further e-mail with his name as sender without bothering to read it. I am reporting this not to urge anyone else to join me in this embargo (after all, I'm just a dabbler, while he is presumably a professional), but merely to request that any of your replies to him be phrased with the understanding that not everyone with an interest in _your comments will have bothered to read his original messages. ~Owen Lorion From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Sep 17 22:42:39 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:42:39 -0400 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010917171252.03a16b20@iac.net> Message-ID: Falwell's use of the expression "secularize" strikes me as somewhat sinister. Has he ever read the first clause of the First Amendment, or does he consider it already a dead letter? A. Murie From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Sep 17 22:43:28 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:43:28 -0700 Subject: avoiding terminal preposition Message-ID: i suppose that scholars of english grammar all have their own collections of idioms and constructions that cry out for a clause-final stranded preposition (the usage handbooks list a variety of these), as well as collections of cites where people tied themselves in tortured knots so as to avoid the dreaded terminal preposition. here's a nice example i heard on a local show ("Minds Over Matter") on the san francisco radio station KALW. talking about a city street, one of the panelists asked, "Who is it named after? I mean, for whom is it named?" what makes the example nice is that the speaker didn't just shift from a stranded preposition to its pied-piped equivalent ("After whom is it named?" - which to my ear is just awful, though perhaps not so bad as "After which parent does Kim take?" as a substitute for "Which parent does Kim take after?", or "For what did you eat that fish?" as a substitute for "What did you eat that fish for?"), but seems to have unconsciously perceived where that strategy would lead her and shifted the preposition as well, to one that's more acceptable in pied piping. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), looking for diversions From Ittaob at AOL.COM Mon Sep 17 22:36:32 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:36:32 EDT Subject: Bapopik Message-ID: I have been similarly deleting his posts for some time. Steve Boatti From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Sep 17 11:41:57 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:41:57 +0800 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010917171252.03a16b20@iac.net> Message-ID: At 5:18 PM -0400 9/17/01, Conversa wrote: >At 01:14 PM 9/17/01 +0800, Lawrence Horn wrote: (I think it was actually Laurence Horn) >>Certainly the perpetrators of the recent attacks must be godless >>secular types, since obviously no religious believers could be >>capable of such infamous...oops, never mind. >> >I understand your frustration but I would not categorize the >perpetrators as "religious believers". Even my Muslim friends tell >me that their religion does not endorse the killing of the innocent >nor suicide, and some tell me that these two acts are "sinful" and >"punishable by damnation." The faction represented by these >terrorists is so out of line that some have described what is going >on as a "battle for the soul of Islam." On the one side the >terrorist extremists and their quasi-religious views and on the >other the decent, peace-loving and responsible "center" of Islam. I'd have to disagree here, and I'm relieved we're now talking about differences in the denotation of lexical items instead of just politics and religion. I think by any standard the (putative) perpetrators are very much "religious believers", even if their particular view of Islam does not comport with yours or with those of who you see (and I see) as "mainstream" believers. I'm not sure how you can define "religious believers" so as to exclude fanatics, whether we're talking about the Jewish guys who shot up a Palestinian mosque or the Catholics who organized the Spanish Inquisition or roasted various pagans on various stakes or the Protestants who burned suspected witches in Salem to purify their village or Hindus who assassinate Moslems and vice versa in India or... The point is that (as far as this radical secularist/born-again Unitarian sees it) you can't dismiss the "terrorist extremists'...views" as "quasi-religious" because we don't agree with them, i.e. the view that if you kill lots and lots of infidels and yourself, there will be many dark-haired dark-eyed virgins waiting for you in heaven. These views ARE religious, even if they're not those of "responsible" Islam. larry From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Sep 18 01:40:27 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:40:27 -0400 Subject: Bapopik In-Reply-To: <20010917.162355.2143.0.okl-word@juno.com>; from okl-word@JUNO.COM on Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:24:58PM -0400 Message-ID: > As an amateur without academic credentials, I've been very hesitant to > comment on a person who is apparently a noted authority, but frankly I > have been annoyed with Mr. Popik's voluminous and seemingly immaterial > comments on such things as foreign terms not included in OED, imagined > personal slights from people with better things to do, and long-winded > excerpts from ephemera whose ephemeral status is well-deserved. You don't have to read it. There are professionals here who find an enormous amount of value in his ceaseless researches into subjects that many amateurs consider well-deservedly ephemeral. > There have been some gems in his material, but not enough to warrant the > dreck he has produced, In your opinion. Others would differ. > I have been, and shall continue to be, deleting any further e-mail > with his name as sender without bothering to read it. OK. This is easy enough to do; you could even set up a filter to prevent Barry's mail from even appearing in your in-box. > I am reporting this not to urge anyone else to join me in this embargo > (after all, I'm just a dabbler, while he is presumably a professional), Actually, as Barry very frequently posts--most recently, yesterday--he is an amateur. He also mentioned last week that the headquarters of his job was--or, rather, had been--in the World Trade Center. > but merely to request that any of your replies to him be phrased with the > understanding that not everyone with an interest in _your comments will > have bothered to read his original messages. I'm sorry, but because _you_ don't want to read Barry's posts, _we_ should all change our behavior to accommodate you? Barry's posts are archived along with the rest of the list; if you want to catch up you can go to http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l and do so. Jesse Sheidlower From Vocabula at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 01:54:38 2001 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:54:38 EDT Subject: The Vocabula Review -- Vol. 3, No. 9 Message-ID: Hello The September issue of The Vocabula Review (TVR) is now online at http://www.vocabula.com IN THIS ISSUE How Linguistics Killed Grammar -- Peter Corey Thanks for Sharing -- Joseph Epstein But You Know What I Mean -- Robert Fulton Two Poems -- Fred Moramarco Grumbling About Grammar Elegant English On Dimwitticisms Clues to Concise Writing Scarcely Used Words Oddments and Miscellanea On the Bookshelf Letters to the Editor Regards, Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review http://www.vocabula.com ___________________________________________________ To subscribe to The Vocabula Review: http://www.vocabula.com/VRsubscribe.htm TVR Forum: http://members.boardhost.com/Vocabula/ Do you enjoy reading The Vocabula Review each month? If so, please help ensure that you can by contributing now: http://www.vocabula.com/VRgenerosity.htm ___________________________________________________ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 United States Tel: (781) 861-1515 From jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM Tue Sep 18 02:21:34 2001 From: jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM (Jeffrey William McKeough) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:21:34 -0400 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: from "Laurence Horn" at Sep 17, 2001 07:41:57 PM Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > >I'm not sure how you can define "religious believers" so as to >exclude fanatics, whether we're talking about the Jewish guys who >shot up a Palestinian mosque If you're referring to the 1994 shooting, it was a single person, Baruch Goldstein, and it was the Tomb of the Patriarchs, not a mosque. -- Jeffrey William McKeough jwm at spdcc.com (or spdcc.net) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Sep 18 02:18:01 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:18:01 -0500 Subject: Barry Popik Message-ID: OED editor Jesse Sheidlower just expressed very strong support for the value of Barry Popik's word research. I fully agree. Barry is one of the most remarkable researchers of words in American English, and I am doing my best to write up and polish the various material he has been sharing with ads-l. (There's no way I can keep up, but I'm trying). In the informal index I've kept of my _Comments on Etymology_, Barry has 59 items listed. And this is just the tip of the iceberg of his material. Those who are uninterested in his work should by all means delete it or filter it out. But those of us who recognize the extraordinary scholarly value of his work are very much interested in seeing that work continue. I am constantly amazed at the obscure sources he digs up and the unbounded energy he brings to our field. If all the material he has produced is ever written up and polished, he will be recognized as one of the most prolific (and significant) researchers of American words and expressions. The challenge to our field is how to turn his extensive raw data into articles ready for formal publication, not how to silence him. ---Gerald Cohen Professor of German and Russian University of Missouri-Rolla research specialty: etymology co-author (with Barry Popik) of _Studies in Slang, vol. 6_. (Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang), 1999 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 03:02:19 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:02:19 EDT Subject: Little Old Lady from Pasadena; Frog Suits; No Fuss, No Cuss Message-ID: LITTLE OLD LADY FROM PASADENA A 1964 song by Jan & Dean, later by the Beach Boys. Perhaps related to the little old lady in tennis shoes (see SAFIRE'S NEW POLITICAL DICTIONARY). From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 20 November 1948, pg. 10, col. 5: _From California to Kashmir_ _Tale of an Adventurous Old Lady, Two Fortune Tellers, and a Lad Named Samdhu_ By Marageret Parton (...) NOW this little old lady, so the story goes, lived in the City of Pasadena... -------------------------------------------------------- FROG SUITS Not in the OED? From THIS WEEK, the NYHT, 15 November 1948, pg. 18, col. 1: (PHOTO CAPTION) NAVY demolition men don "frog suits" for icy swims (ARTICLE) The "devil man" at left is one of Admiral Byrd's crew, testing the Navy's new "frog suit" which underwater demolition swimmers will wear to invade enemy waters. -------------------------------------------------------- NO FUSS, NO CUSS I remember use it as "no fuss, no muss." Clementine Paddleford describes it in the NYHT, 12 November 1948, pg. 19, col. 1: No fuss, no cuss. From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Sep 18 03:39:38 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:39:38 -0700 Subject: YOH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Michael Newman > > Currently, it maintains that use among almost all young > New Yorkers. > It is also used by many as a kind of emphasis marker (I'm > not sure of > the technical term here-not my area) not unlike the > Straights English > "la-" or for that matter the peninsular Spanish "tio" or Mexican > "guey" which also share vocative uses. > > e.g. That Falwell's such a fool, yo. > > In that usage the 'yo' is downstressed. That might be the usage I've been hearing. It has that downstress which is probably why I think I hear a residual "l" sound from y'all. I'll try to listen more carefully. Benjamin Barrett From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Sep 17 15:54:33 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:54:33 +0800 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: <200109180221.WAA22323@ursolaris.spdcc.com> Message-ID: At 10:21 PM -0400 9/17/01, Jeffrey William McKeough wrote: >Laurence Horn wrote: >> >>I'm not sure how you can define "religious believers" so as to >>exclude fanatics, whether we're talking about the Jewish guys who >>shot up a Palestinian mosque > >If you're referring to the 1994 shooting, it was a single person, >Baruch Goldstein, and it was the Tomb of the Patriarchs, not a mosque. > Yes, I was, and I realized my mistake in using the plural after sending the message (although I had misremembered the site as having been a mosque). I'd intended to include the incident at the tunnel as well, but then edited it out. The point on religious fanaticism, of course, is not affected (whether or not you agree with it). Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 05:10:38 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 01:10:38 EDT Subject: Aztec Soup; VIP Sauce; White Fruitcake; Palm Court Salad Message-ID: AZTEC SOUP Not in OED? It's widely served in Mexico, as I reported two years ago. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 8 November 1948, pg. 18, col. 6: WORLDLY WISE SOUPS--Today in their fifth-floor food shop Abraham & Straus, Brooklyn, will introduce the well known Twin Gabel soups made from recipes collected around the world by Zachary Gable (sic), former Brooklyn restaurant owner. He and Abe Gruber put out a lione of eight soups that represent a potpourri of the nations. There is Aztec bean soup made with black beans in a way discovered in a Mexican hut. Bavarian peasant soup has crisp vegetables chopped and cooked in a claret-laced beef stock according to a recipe found in a Viennese restaurant. Gule Arter, a Danish specialty from Copenhagen, is made with smoked pork trimmings, dried peas and diced vegetables, all with a delicious smoky flavor. Soup from Singapore is here in the can, and so is an Arabian Chercah soup as made at Port Said. -------------------------------------------------------- VIP SAUCE From the NYHT, 18 November 1948, pg. 30, col. 8: LET'S TALK SAUCE--It is little more than a year ago that Crosbie's introduced V.I.P. Sauce to the British Public, the name coming out of he war. The term V.I.P. had been coined in England when Winston Churchill, the late Franklin D. Roosevelt, and General Dwight D. Eisenhower and Field Marshal Viscount Montgomery were among the very important persons affectionately known as the V.I.P.s, hence the title of this very important product--an epicurean treat. -------------------------------------------------------- WHITE FRUITCAKE From the NYHT, 29 November 1948, pg. 12, col. 6: _White Christmas Fruitcakes Wrapped in Wine_ ----------------------------- _They're Made in Kitchen_ _in Connecticut From Old_ _North Carolina Recipe_ By Clementine Paddleford Little blond fruitcakes bursting to surprise. Today there are ten, maybe twenty tomorrow, so the line grows, a vast company soon, swathed in white cheesecloth, dampened in white port, taking their time to come mellow for Christmas. The cakes are made by Molly Wyckoff, twelve years manager of the Kirby Allen Restaurant, 797 Madison Avnue, a woman wise in the ways of fine food, a perfectionist with her baking. The white fruitcake is made from an old North Carolina recipe, made in Molly's home kitchen in Southport, Conn., made with infinite care. (...) A pretty fruitcake, light golden in color, baked in a ring. (DARE for N. Carolina?--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- PALM COURT SALAD See John Mariani's "Palace Court salad" entry in the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK. The date given and even the name of the salad are not certain, but it's from the Palm Court at San Francisco's Palace Hotel (now Sheraton-Palace). From Clementine Paddleford's trip to San Frnacisco (no cappuccino at Tosca?) in the NYHT, 10 November 1948, pg. 28, col. 8: We had luncheon with Ruth in San Francisco's famous Palm Court of the Palace hotel. Between bites of Palm Court salad we took these notes... (Pg. 32, col. 7--ed.) PALM COURT SALAD--Our luncheon with Ruth on Nov. 1 was also opening day in the West of the dungeness crab season. That Palm Court salad we ordered was made with the fresh crab, and a pretty sight to behold. First a circle of shredded lettuce, so finely shredded, so crisp the green seemed a refined and distant cousin of the usual garden variety. On the lettuce bed a thick slice of tomato. Posed on this an artichoke heart filled with big lumps of the crab meat (or chicken or shrimp), chopped egg to garland the base. The waiter dipped over Thousand Island dressing. A few bites down, he was back adding more, then again more. Garlic bread completed the course. We ate more garlic bread in the West in four weeks than in all the years before. Toasted garlic bread is everywhere, and one taste--like popcorn--you can't let it alone. (So popcorn is the food that "you can't eat just one"?--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- HERE'S HOW AGAIN! (1929) again Pg. 28: _Side Car_ THIS drink has become quite famous--and why not? 1/3 Brandy 1/3 Cointreau 1/3 Lemon juice Pg. 56: _The Kitchen Stove_ BECAUSE there's everything in it but it! 1/6 Rye 1/6 Applejack 1/6 Italian Vermouth 1/6 Lemon juice 1/6 Orange juice 1/6 Cream Dash of Angostura Bitters Dash of Grenadine Pg. 62: _The Tomato Cocktail_ (Non-alcoholic) THIS very simple concoction is guaranteed to pick you up no matter how low you have fallen. Take a can of tomato soup and place in a shaker full of ice. Add a few dashes of Worcestershire Sauce and shake well. (Note tomato "soup," not tomato "juice"--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 06:41:17 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 02:41:17 EDT Subject: Ford Smiles (1917); Vice, Inc. (1954) Message-ID: For the record, I once worked in the World Trade Center...My cousin runs the American Embassy in Bulgaria...My family is at risk, probably as much as anyone's on this list. Tuesday's attack prevented me from traveling (at great personal expense) to the East and recording Islamic words and proverbs. -------------------------------------------------------- FORD SMILES: ALL THE BEST CURRENT JOKES ABOUT A RATTLING GOOD CAR Gathered by Carleton B. Case Charles S, Pratt, NY 1917 The author also wrote some books on wit and humor that are perhaps worth looking into. This book has "pedestrian," but unfortunately no "jaywalker." Pg. 3: What perversity of human nature has developed the recent propensity to "josh" a wonderful machine, that has benefited the very people who laugh at their own "tin lizzies" and "henrys"? Pg. 25: HOW THEY PRONOUNCE IT (New York) There once was a reckless Ford chauffeur, Who chanced to catch up with a gopher. He of course ran him down, Then inquired, with a frown, "Now, what were you going so slow fer?" (Boston) In Boston they tell of a chauffeur, A very eccentric old duffer, Who blows his Ford horn From night until morn, And makes all the neighborhood suffer. (Chicago) Another peculiar Ford chauffeur Creates a continual stir. He is blind in both eyes, And when driving he tries A smash-up is bound to occur. (Philadelphia) Still another too speedy Ford chauffeur When arrested seemed hardly to care. If put into jail, He is let out on bail, And is soon again speeding for fair. Pg. 82: IN THE FUTURIST DICTIONARY Ford--An insect inhabiting the roads of most of the civilized world, principally the United States. Commonly known as "road-louse" and "mechanical cock-roach." It is supposed to multiply very rapidly, as it was almost unknown a few years ago, and now infests the highways. It is harmless, and has seldom been known to attack a pedestrian. SO LONG? "Why is it called a runabout?" "Because it will run about a mile without stopping." Pg. 121: FORD NOMENCLATURE The man who owns one calls it MY CAR. The man who does not own one calls them Rattlers, Tin lizzies, Little henrys, Flivvers, Mechanical cockroaches-- anything he thinks of. Pg. 141: The "left-hand drive and right arm squeeze" method of driving is to be stopped in and around St. Louis, according to reports received from there. The prosecuting attorney of St. Louis county made an investigation of conditions and found that the number of "one-armed" drivers was surprising and a menace to other motorists. (At least they weren't making cell phone calls--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- VICE, INC. by Joachim Joesten Ace Books, Inc, NY 1954 DOPE, INC., by the same author, is missing from the NYPL. Another shot for Gerald Cohen's inter-library loan staff. Pg. 18: In the Romance languages, the prevailing term is "traffic in whites" (French: _traite des blacnhes_; Spanish: _trata de las blancas_; Italian: _tratta delle bianche_). All of these phrases are basically wrong because no color limitation is involved in actual practice. (Pg. 19--ed.) The Germans, again, speak of "_Madchenhandel_," which presupposes another non-existent limitation. For the traffickers, needless to say, deal not only in young girls ("_Madchen_"), but also in married women, widows and children. Pg. 64: From Trieste, Genoa, Naples and Brindisi, among other Italian ports, the bales of "blonde silk," the sacks of "green vegetables"--the trade term for girls under age--are shipped to the far corners of the earth. Pg. 123: _America: The Call-Girl System_ (No prostitution "Big Apple" citation, of course--ed. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Sep 18 12:36:09 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:36:09 -0400 Subject: Bapopik In-Reply-To: <20010917.162355.2143.0.okl-word@juno.com> Message-ID: Frankly, I'm rooting for Barry. His asides are sometimes eye-rollers, but as another amateur, I know his enthusiasm is beyond anything I could ever match. And as a fellow New Yorker, I'm eternally grateful for his work on "Big Apple." That alone compensates for the multi-part serial he continues to entertain us with, "Letters I Have Written, Responses I Have Not Received." Also, good for Barry on his recent success in getting a correction in the paper. Not many have breached the New York Times' Grey Wall of Silence. That's a feather for anyone's cap. -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Tue Sep 18 02:58:07 2001 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:58:07 -0400 Subject: Barry Popik Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:18:01 -0500 Gerald Cohen writes: > OED editor Jesse Sheidlower just expressed very strong support > for the value of Barry Popik's word research. I fully agree. > Barry is one of the most remarkable researchers of words in > American English' Not that anyone cares, but I concur. I find his monomania to be facsinating in itself. Any field of study would be fortunate to have someone so involved. I must admit that whenI am busy I delete Barry. And when the first line doesn't meet my particular interests, I delete. But that's just me. I suspect language professionals find much more of interest than I do. I don't mean to be offensive, but I have heard that it takes sifting ten tons of soil to find a diamond. And most people consider that diamond to be worth the effort. D From cbooth at BENECO.COM Tue Sep 18 14:33:21 2001 From: cbooth at BENECO.COM (Booth, Curtis) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:33:21 -0700 Subject: avoiding terminal preposition Message-ID: An alternative strategy is to not tie any knots at all but to just leave out any prepositions that might be clause final or doubled because one of them is clause final, as in this delightful example: "One of the properties of Unicode is that the character values are in the order a native speaker would normally type them, which is not necessarily the order they may appear in the final rendering." -----Original Message----- From: Arnold Zwicky [mailto:zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU] Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:43 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: avoiding terminal preposition i suppose that scholars of english grammar all have their own collections of idioms and constructions that cry out for a clause-final stranded preposition (the usage handbooks list a variety of these), as well as collections of cites where people tied themselves in tortured knots so as to avoid the dreaded terminal preposition. here's a nice example i heard on a local show ("Minds Over Matter") on the san francisco radio station KALW. talking about a city street, one of the panelists asked, "Who is it named after? I mean, for whom is it named?" what makes the example nice is that the speaker didn't just shift from a stranded preposition to its pied-piped equivalent ("After whom is it named?" - which to my ear is just awful, though perhaps not so bad as "After which parent does Kim take?" as a substitute for "Which parent does Kim take after?", or "For what did you eat that fish?" as a substitute for "What did you eat that fish for?"), but seems to have unconsciously perceived where that strategy would lead her and shifted the preposition as well, to one that's more acceptable in pied piping. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), looking for diversions From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Tue Sep 18 14:57:13 2001 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:57:13 -0700 Subject: Yo Message-ID: I remember Yo being a stereotypical Philadelphia slang term in the 80s, before I ever heard it in AAVE. Think Rocky: "Yo! Adrienne..." I'm sure there were some articles on this in the Philadelphia Inquirer. Ed Keer __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Sep 18 13:02:41 2001 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:02:41 -0400 Subject: Bapopik Message-ID: I'd like to join the chorus of support for Barry Popik, whose research is certainly very well respected (and extensively utilized) here. As far as the more ephemeral locutions and non-naturalized foreign phrases in his mailings are concerned, from my perspective, you just never know what will end up taking root in the language later on, so it can't hurt to err on the side of inclusiveness when collecting data. In this business, we're far more often stymied by a lack of information than an overabundance of it! Joanne Despres Dating Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Sep 18 15:42:31 2001 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:42:31 -0700 Subject: Bapopik In-Reply-To: <3BA70DB1.26424.47C3451@localhost> Message-ID: I agree wholeheartedly. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Joanne M. Despres wrote: > I'd like to join the chorus of support for Barry Popik, whose > research is certainly very well respected (and extensively utilized) > here. As far as the more ephemeral locutions and non-naturalized > foreign phrases in his mailings are concerned, from my > perspective, you just never know what will end up taking root in the > language later on, so it can't hurt to err on the side of inclusiveness > when collecting data. In this business, we're far more often > stymied by a lack of information than an overabundance of it! > > Joanne Despres > Dating Editor > Merriam-Webster, Inc. > From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 16:23:37 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:23:37 EDT Subject: "Being Wanded" (Airport Security) Message-ID: In a message dated 9/17/01 2:17:35 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: << Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta, on the PBS News Hour program, said that tougher airport security measures will include more people "being wanded." You know what that means--taken aside by airport security, with a wand scanning your pockets and such. I haven't seen "wand" recorded as a verb. There are quite a few hits on the usual computer databases. >> I believe that I mentioned this a few years ago on ADS-L, but I haven't checked the archives. What I remember is that a handsome airport security person said to my partner, "May I wand you?" To which Stewart answered, "Wand away!" From funex79 at SLONET.ORG Tue Sep 18 16:54:00 2001 From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:54:00 -0700 Subject: Bapopik Message-ID: As another non-professional in the field for whom visits to this list have become a daily addiction I'd like to cast my vote for Barry Popik. While I'm not always sure just what he's researching nor what becomes of all the information he pours out, I'm intrigued by his travels,his curiosity and how he can carry out his function as a traffic court judge (if that is what he is) while traveling all over the world. And while I' m on here I wonder if anyone can tell me where the term "24/7" started. I've heard two sources proposed: 1) the African-American community and 2) the Silicon Valley people. Thanks for any information on this. Jerome Foster Los Osos, CA From: "Grant Barrett" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 5:36 AM Subject: Re: Bapopik > Frankly, I'm rooting for Barry. His asides are sometimes eye-rollers, but as > another amateur, I know his enthusiasm is beyond anything I could ever > match. And as a fellow New Yorker, I'm eternally grateful for his work on > "Big Apple." That alone compensates for the multi-part serial he continues > to entertain us with, "Letters I Have Written, Responses I Have Not > Received." > > Also, good for Barry on his recent success in getting a correction in the > paper. Not many have breached the New York Times' Grey Wall of Silence. > That's a feather for anyone's cap. > > -- > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > http://www.worldnewyork.org/ > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 18 05:19:56 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:19:56 +0800 Subject: "Being Wanded" (Airport Security) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:23 PM -0400 9/18/01, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >In a message dated 9/17/01 2:17:35 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > ><< Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta, on the PBS News Hour >program, said that tougher airport security measures will include more people >"being wanded." > > You know what that means--taken aside by airport security, with a wand >scanning your pockets and such. > > I haven't seen "wand" recorded as a verb. There are quite a few hits on >the usual computer databases. >> > >I believe that I mentioned this a few years ago on ADS-L, but I haven't >checked the archives. What I remember is that a handsome airport security >person said to my partner, "May I wand you?" To which Stewart answered, "Wand >away!" Is this earlier or later than the wanding the library personnel does to the books one is checking out (at computer terminals)? Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 17:28:04 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:28:04 EDT Subject: "Holy War" (from the Crusades?) Message-ID: "HOLY WAR" From REUTERS, 9-18-2001: The Arabic word "jihad" is often translated as "holy war" but a more accurate translation is "holy struggle." Islamic scholars say the term "holy war" was actually coined in Europe during the Crusades to mean a war against the Muslims. (I completely disagree. Yes, "holy war" was used during the Crusades. But, depending on how you translate it, the Dead Sea Scrolls have whole parchments devoted to the "holy war" between the forces of light and the forces of darkness. English goes back only so far, but the concept of a "holy war" was not new to the Crusades--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- MISC. PATRIOTISM STOCKS/INVESTING--I've been looking for this in stock market reports today, but I haven't found any names for it. This would include staying in the stock market and not selling, or buying airline stocks, or buying defense stocks. FLEE MARKET--From the NEW YORK POST, 9-18-2001, pg. 18, col. 4: They've opened makeshift restaurants with their names scrawled on cardboard, like "The Freedom Cafe." In the abandoned Gateway Towers, they organize boxes of clothes, boots, hard hats and gear, outfitting work-worn rescuers every day. At the "Flee Market" near the North Cove Plaza, nurses distribute medical supplies and toiletries. BAG--From the HARTFORD COURANT, 9-12-2001, pg. A6: "Det. Rick Ortego was back in the 'bag,' police slang for uniform." From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Tue Sep 18 17:46:23 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:46:23 -0700 Subject: Bapopik Message-ID: To all: I've been following this thread with great interest. I'm an "amateur" too, although I love words and their uses; I'm writing a science fiction novel. Frankly, although I don't see any "use" for them, I find Barry's posts from all over very entertaining. I realize a lot of people are "hurting" right now, but what better time to inject a little lightness into an otherwise gloomy situation? I'm casting my vote for Barry, and won't delete him! Anne Gilbert ----- Original Message ----- From: "peef8.wa" To: Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Bapopik > Hear, Hear!! ( From another amateur) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jesse Sheidlower" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 6:40 PM > Subject: Re: Bapopik > > > I'm sorry, but because _you_ don't want to read Barry's posts, _we_ should > > all change our behavior to accommodate you? Barry's posts are archived > > along with the rest of the list; if you want to catch up you can go to > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l and do so. > > > > Jesse Sheidlower > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > NetZero Platinum > Only $9.95 per month! > Sign up in September to win one of 30 Hawaiian Vacations for 2! > http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 From Barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Sep 18 17:37:38 2001 From: Barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:37:38 -0400 Subject: 24/7 Message-ID: The term 24-7 is found in the Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 8.4, 1993). It probably needs an updated treatment. No origin was speculated at the time. My guess is that it arose in the slang/jargon of Silicon Valley. Regards, David David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] barnhart at highlands.com www.highlands.com/Lexik "Necessity obliges us to neologize." Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 17:44:34 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:44:34 EDT Subject: Yo Message-ID: In fact, the first time I ever noticed "yo" was in the Rocky film. I grew up in New York City in the 50s in a working-class neighborhood and no one I knew ever used "yo." This leads me to believe it was Philly slang that was popularized by the movie. Steve Boatti From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Sep 18 17:59:11 2001 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:59:11 -0700 Subject: "Being Wanded" (Airport Security) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Laurence Horn wrote: > Is this earlier or later than the wanding the library personnel does > to the books one is checking out (at computer terminals)? > > Larry > We started wanding in barcodes at the UW libraries in the mid-1980s, if I remember correctly. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Tue Sep 18 17:59:32 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:59:32 -0400 Subject: 24/7 Message-ID: I remember first seeing this term, then new to me, years ago in the back page of The Atlantic Monthly. A connection with the drug trade was suggested, although I don't recall if this was thought to be the origin or merely an illustrative use. Unfortunately, I don't know where, if at all, The Atlantic is archived; this particular item doesn't seem to be on their web site. John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: Barnhart [SMTP:Barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 1:38 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: 24/7 > > The term 24-7 is found in the Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 8.4, > 1993). It probably needs an updated treatment. > > No origin was speculated at the time. My guess is that it arose in the > slang/jargon of Silicon Valley. > > Regards, > David > > David K. Barnhart, Editor > The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] > barnhart at highlands.com > www.highlands.com/Lexik > > "Necessity obliges us to neologize." > Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Sep 18 17:52:28 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:52:28 -0400 Subject: On the subjec of B Popik Message-ID: I have long-ago expressed my admiration for Barry's work. He was then and remains, to the everlasting gratitude of word-watchers, interested in the development of the lexicon. America In So Many Words (Metcalf and Barnhart) benefitted immensely from his diggings. The Barnhart Dictionary Companion has benefited, as well. I am currently working on a book of food words. Needless, to say he has been right on topic for this. To the extent that some subscribers to this list find his asides (and they are asides!) unnecessary, to that extent, I would submit, those people are, in my opinion, less necessary than is Mr. Popik to the liveliness of this list. Opinionatedly submitted, David Barnhart P.S. Flame me if you will, but do it to me at not to the list, thank you. If you would be so kind in such messages as to put flame in the subject I will be able to identify quickly and dispense with just as quickly your remarks. From Vocabula at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 18:03:57 2001 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:03:57 EDT Subject: Off the subject, but anyone have the time to read and sign this? Message-ID: Please read this -- then maybe you'll be interested in signing the petition below. >>I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the >>Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would >>mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this >>atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What >>else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing >>whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." >> >>And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am >>from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've >>never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who >>will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing. >> >>I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no >>doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in >>New York. >> >>I agree that something must be done about those monsters. >> >>But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the >>government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics >>who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a >>plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, >>think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the >>Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people >>had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the >>perpetrators. >> >>They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban >>and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their >>country. >> >>Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The >>answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A >>few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 >>disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. >>There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these >>widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the >>farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons >>why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban. >> >>We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone >>Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. >> >>Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? >>Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their >>hospitals? Done. >> >>Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health >>care? Too late. Someone already did all that. >> >>New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at >>least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the >>Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away >>and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they >>don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over >>Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the >>criminals who did this horrific thing. >> >>Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by >>raping once again the people they've been raping all this time. So what >>else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear >>and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with >>ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs >>to be done" They're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as >>many as needed. >> >>Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent >>people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the >>table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die >>fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much >>bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd >>have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest >>of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand >>by? >> >>You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam >>and the West. >> >>And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he >>wants. >> >>That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right >>there. He really believes Islam would beat the West. It might seem >>ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and >>the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks a holocaust >>in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, >>that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, >>in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war >>would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. >>Who has the belly for that? >> >>Bin Laden does. Anyone else? >> >>Tamim Ansary President Bush, We the undersigned encourage you to take responsible, peaceful action in bringing the terrorists to justice. Please seriously consider the negative ramifications of continued killing and perpetuating the cycle of violence. Although many lives have already been lost, MANY MORE CAN STILL BE SAVED. 1. Robert Hartwell Fiske, Lexington, MA 2. Petition note: To sign, copy this entire message into a new email and send to all those in favor of a more peaceful world. If you sign as a multiple of 50, please send the petition to President Bush at president at whitehouse.gov along with the other addresses to continue the petition. If you do not intend to continue this petition please at least forward it to the President's email. Thank you. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 18 17:59:18 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:59:18 -0400 Subject: Bapopik In-Reply-To: <20010917.162355.2143.0.okl-word@juno.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, L oki wrote: > As an amateur without academic credentials, I've been very hesitant to > comment on a person who is apparently a noted authority, but frankly I > have been annoyed with Mr. Popik's voluminous and seemingly immaterial > comments on such things as foreign terms not included in OED, imagined > personal slights from people with better things to do, and long-winded > excerpts from ephemera whose ephemeral status is well-deserved. > > There have been some gems in his material, but not enough to warrant the > dreck he has produced, and his flippancy towards the recent disaster was > the final straw. Barry is an "amateur" in that he operates outside the academic world and does his researches without compensation. His work, however, is of such brilliance that he is nonetheless a noted authority on slang and food words and other areas of American vocabulary. He fits into a long tradition of amateur historical-lexicographical researchers, people like Marghanita Laski, W. C. Minor, Albert Matthews, Peter Tamony, etc. who have done more to advance historical-lexicographical scholarship than almost any academic. I sometimes find Barry's messages to be difficult reading because there is a high noise-to-signal ratio and a lot of attacks on ADS members (not just William Safire -- isn't Sol Steinmetz a respected ADS member?) and people who are not ADS members. But, as others have pointed out, one can use the delete key to skip all of Barry's messages, as I am sure many people on this list do. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Sep 18 18:12:42 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:12:42 -0400 Subject: Off the subject, but anyone have the time to read and sign this? In-Reply-To: <110.5846372.28d8e68d@aol.com> Message-ID: On 9/18/01 14:03, "Robert Hartwell Fiske" wrote: > Please read this -- then maybe you'll be interested in signing the petition > below. No, I am not. I do not sign such petitions in email, certainly not in a name-after-name list form, and particularly when they follow an article that has been, by now, circulated to every corner of the Internet. These sorts of mass actions are counter-productive. They give one the feeling of having acted, when in fact no action has been taken. We would be better served sending invidually written messages to the postal address of the president, our senators, our governors and our congressmen, rather than to an email box which receives tens of thousands of messages a day. Even better would be letters to hometown newspapers, letters which might try to persuade our fellow citizens. -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Tue Sep 18 18:23:37 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:23:37 -0400 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 07:41 PM 9/17/01 +0800, you wrote: >At 5:18 PM -0400 9/17/01, Conversa wrote: >>At 01:14 PM 9/17/01 +0800, Lawrence Horn wrote: >(I think it was actually Laurence Horn) > >>>Certainly the perpetrators of the recent attacks must be godless >>>secular types, since obviously no religious believers could be >>>capable of such infamous...oops, never mind. >>I understand your frustration but I would not categorize the >>perpetrators as "religious believers". Even my Muslim friends tell >>me that their religion does not endorse the killing of the innocent >>nor suicide, and some tell me that these two acts are "sinful" and >>"punishable by damnation." The faction represented by these >>terrorists is so out of line that some have described what is going >>on as a "battle for the soul of Islam." On the one side the >>terrorist extremists and their quasi-religious views and on the >>other the decent, peace-loving and responsible "center" of Islam. > >I'd have to disagree here, and I'm relieved we're now talking about >differences in the denotation of lexical items instead of just >politics and religion. I think by any standard the (putative) >perpetrators are very much "religious believers", even if their >particular view of Islam does not comport with yours or with those of >who you see (and I see) as "mainstream" believers. I'm not sure how >you can define "religious believers" so as to exclude fanatics, >whether we're talking about the Jewish guys who shot up a Palestinian >mosque or the Catholics who organized the Spanish Inquisition or >roasted various pagans on various stakes or the Protestants who >burned suspected witches in Salem to purify their village or Hindus >who assassinate Moslems and vice versa in India or... >The point is that (as far as this radical secularist/born-again >Unitarian sees it) you can't dismiss the "terrorist >extremists'...views" as "quasi-religious" because we don't agree with >them, i.e. the view that if you kill lots and lots of infidels and >yourself, there will be many dark-haired dark-eyed virgins waiting >for you in heaven. These views ARE religious, even if they're not >those of "responsible" Islam. > >larry I don't know if anyone else saw the excellent Bill Moyers interview with Robert Jay Lifton on PBS last night, but Lifton defined and discussed religious belief in just the same terms as Larry. If anything, he said, extremist belief is religion in its rawest or "most pure" sense, i.e., as not allowing any disagreement or ambiguity or dialogue at all. _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Sep 18 18:20:12 2001 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:20:12 -0600 Subject: Bapopik In-Reply-To: <3BA70DB1.26424.47C3451@localhost> Message-ID: > As far as the more ephemeral locutions and non-naturalized > foreign phrases in his mailings are concerned, from my > perspective, you just never know what will end up taking root in the > language later on, so it can't hurt to err on the side of inclusiveness > when collecting data. In this business, we're far more often > stymied by a lack of information than an overabundance of it! > > Joanne Despres > Dating Editor > Merriam-Webster, Inc. Excellent point, Joanne! Vicki Victoria Neufeldt 1533 Early Drive Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 3K1 Canada From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 19:02:41 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:02:41 EDT Subject: Hooray for Bapopik Message-ID: I confess that I generally delete Popik's postings. Deleting is easy enough for me. I delete Popik's entries--and many others--simply because I don't have time to read them all. I open things that look (by their subject headers) interesting. However, I fully appreciate that much of P's research may be of interest to professional lexicographers, and for that reason alone I welcome his continuing to share his work with the American Dialect Society. I prefer to see ADS appeal to the widest possible audience. I am also delighted that Popik's work is being archived by the ADS in searchable form: to be sure, if I ever want to check on a particular lexicographical question, I begin by searching the archive, in part because I know that Popik's enormous efforts repose there. I do find Popik's whining tantrums about Safire, Chicago, etc., annoying and off-topic, and I have whiningly complained to him about it off-line. However, if that is the price we pay for having his efforts in our archives--and available to the specialists who subscribe to ADS-L--then it is well worth it, in my opinion. From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Tue Sep 18 19:39:20 2001 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:39:20 +0200 Subject: lame denials Message-ID: > I don't know if anyone else saw the excellent Bill Moyers interview with > Robert Jay Lifton on PBS last night, but Lifton defined and discussed > religious belief in just the same terms as Larry. If anything, he said, > extremist belief is religion in its rawest or "most pure" sense, i.e., as > not allowing any disagreement or ambiguity or dialogue at all. > Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Religion is not the problem. For my part, I know that I've become more open-minded since I became a Christian, although I still have a long way to go. When I was an atheist I used to think that Christians, and to a lesser extent adherents of other faiths (against whom I was slightly less ill-disposed for reasons of cultural background) were close-minded, square, and not much fun to be around. I don't anymore, and that's progress. The pastor of the Baptist church my wife and I go to on Sundays is a man of erudition, compassion, and love for people near and far. To use a Yiddish word that has entered our language: he is a mensch. He also happens to be an Arab. A fellow translator of mine in Saudi Arabia is very upset about what happened, what's happening, and what's about to happen. Although he knows and insists that the Quran bans murder of innocents as well as suicide, he also knows that many are tarring all Muslims with the same brush. In the United States Messrs. Falwell and Robertson claimed on television on Thursday that an angry God had allowed the terrorists to succeed in their deadly mission because the United States had become a nation of abortion, homosexuality, secular schools and courts, and the American Civil Liberties Union. Have Messrs. Falwell and Robertson no shame? They are not representative of Christianity, just as the men who visited death and suffering on New York and Washington are not representative of Islam. This article from Le Monde deserves to be read by Americans: "Pouvez-vous imaginer toute l'amertume des musulmans?" LE MONDE | 15.09.01 | 12h23 | chronique MIS A JOUR LE 15.09.01 | 12h54 Au Kenya comme ailleurs, vendredi 14 septembre, la journée de prière s'annonçait placée sous les auspices conjoints de l'unité nationale et de la compassion internationale. NAIROBI de notre correspondant Au Kenya comme ailleurs, vendredi 14 septembre, la journée de prière s'annonçait placée sous les auspices conjoints de l'unité nationale et de la compassion internationale. Touché dans sa chair - 213 morts, 5 000 blessés - par un attentat contre l'ambassade américaine de Nairobi le 7 août 1998, déjà attribué à Oussama Ben Laden, le pays tout entier promettait d'atteindre des sommets d'empathie avec les victimes américaines du 11 septembre. Après la déflagration, il y a trois ans, les Kenyans n'avaient-ils pas remisé leurs dissensions ethniques le temps d'organiser les secours ? Mais la douleur des autres n'aura finalement pas eu les mêmes vertus, et la fracture, cette fois, est religieuse. La cérémonie organisée dans le parc de l'Indépendance, qui se voulait ocuménique, n'a réuni que les responsables des principales Eglises chrétiennes qui pullulent dans le pays. Les musulmans, en ce vendredi, ont prié dans leurs mosquées habituelles. Les prières y furent pleines de décence - ou de prudence, on ne sait -, mais mesurées dans tous les cas. C'est à la sortie de la mosquée centrale de Nairobi que les langues se sont soudain déliées, aiguisées par l'annonce de prochaines représailles des Etats-Unis. Dans la foule bruissante agglutinée devant la mosquée de marbre, un homme très écouté martèle ces mots : "Même si l'Amérique raye l'Afghanistan de la carte du monde, il reste l'Iran, il reste le Kenya, et d'autres pays où des musulmans se lèveront pour combattre jusqu'au dernier. L'Occident pleure les morts de Manhattan pendant des jours, mais oublie les morts d'Irak, de Palestine, de Tchétchénie ou du Cachemire. Pouvez-vous imaginer toute l'amertume, aujourd'hui, des musulmans ? Si les Etats-Unis font l'erreur de frapper militairement, une guerre entre les musulmans et les chrétiens va commencer ; elle sera mondiale." La majorité des quelque cinq millions de musulmans du pays désavoueraient sans doute la forme, comme le fond, de ces envolées. L'islam kenyan est fait de groupes éclatés, répondant mal dans l'ensemble aux appels des groupes radicaux. Mais la détermination de ces derniers se renforce incontestablement, galvanisée par les appels à l'unité venus ce même jour d'Afghanistan, de Gaza ou d'Egypte. L'est de l'Afrique, et plus particulièrement le Kenya, traditionnellement proche du monde arabe, serait-il dans ce cas susceptible d'héberger l'une des "cellules" d'Al-Qaeda, l'organisation d'Oussama Ben Laden ? Un rapport du Sénat américain, publié le 10 septembre, soit la veille des attentats aux Etats-Unis, l'affirme... En tout cas, pour les va-t'en-guerre sainte de Nairobi, l'heure est au combat - verbal encore, mais pour combien de temps encore ? "Un musulman doit se réjouir parce que des Américains sont morts, assène froidement l'un des orateurs. Ces infidèles sont les ennemis jurés des vrais croyants. Toutes ces morts nous rendent très heureux. Et nous espérons que d'autres vont mourir encore. Nous ne ressentons aucune espèce de pitié pour eux. Qu'ils meurent, c'est tout. " Ces propos sont salués par des vivats. Jean-Philippe Rémy ARTICLE PARU DANS L'EDITION DU 16.09.01 Paul _________________________________ Paul Frank English translation from Chinese, German, French, Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese Tel. (France) +33 450-709-990 Cell phone +33 681-146-755 paulfrank at post.harvard.edu paulfrank at wanadoo.fr From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Tue Sep 18 13:39:12 2001 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:39:12 -0400 Subject: Bapopik Message-ID: >From another onlooker; well said, Jesse Bob Fitzke Original Message ----- From: Jesse Sheidlower To: Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 9:40 PM Subject: Re: Bapopik > > As an amateur without academic credentials, I've been very hesitant to > > comment on a person who is apparently a noted authority, but frankly I > > have been annoyed with Mr. Popik's voluminous and seemingly immaterial > > comments on such things as foreign terms not included in OED, imagined > > personal slights from people with better things to do, and long-winded > > excerpts from ephemera whose ephemeral status is well-deserved. > > You don't have to read it. There are professionals here who find an > enormous amount of value in his ceaseless researches into subjects > that many amateurs consider well-deservedly ephemeral. > > > There have been some gems in his material, but not enough to warrant the > > dreck he has produced, > > In your opinion. Others would differ. > > > I have been, and shall continue to be, deleting any further e-mail > > with his name as sender without bothering to read it. > > OK. This is easy enough to do; you could even set up a filter to > prevent Barry's mail from even appearing in your in-box. > > > I am reporting this not to urge anyone else to join me in this embargo > > (after all, I'm just a dabbler, while he is presumably a professional), > > Actually, as Barry very frequently posts--most recently, yesterday--he > is an amateur. He also mentioned last week that the headquarters of his > job was--or, rather, had been--in the World Trade Center. > > > but merely to request that any of your replies to him be phrased with the > > understanding that not everyone with an interest in _your comments will > > have bothered to read his original messages. > > I'm sorry, but because _you_ don't want to read Barry's posts, _we_ should > all change our behavior to accommodate you? Barry's posts are archived > along with the rest of the list; if you want to catch up you can go to > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l and do so. > > Jesse Sheidlower > From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Tue Sep 18 20:55:32 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:55:32 -0400 Subject: Barry Popik In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There seems to be a general misunderstanding of my stance in all this (and I speak only for myself). Surely we can distinguish between scholarly work and personal asides. As a linguist and dialectologist, I scan Barry's messages because I do find items in them well worth passing on to my students; I'm not about to delete them without at least a quick look-see. But I too have written him privately to suggest a bit more kindness, a bit less bluntness, etc. Why can't we all just try to stick to scholarly contributions (and maybe not so scholarly--"amateurs" are welcome on this list and always have been) and save our personal comments for private notes to our friends (or enemies)? So, right off I'll apologize for writing my complaint to the list rather than to Barry privately--and I won't even excuse it as a "slip." At 09:18 PM 9/17/01 -0500, you wrote: > OED editor Jesse Sheidlower just expressed very strong support >for the value of Barry Popik's word research. I fully agree. > > Barry is one of the most remarkable researchers of words in >American English, >and I am doing my best to write up and polish the various material he >has been sharing with ads-l. (There's no way I can keep up, but I'm >trying). In the informal index I've kept of my _Comments on >Etymology_, Barry has 59 items listed. And this is just the tip of >the iceberg of his material. > > Those who are uninterested in his work should by all means delete >it or filter it out. But those of us who recognize the extraordinary >scholarly value of his work are very much interested in seeing that >work continue. I am constantly amazed at the obscure sources he digs >up and the unbounded energy he brings to our field. > > If all the material he has produced is ever written up and >polished, he will be recognized as one of the most prolific (and >significant) researchers of American words and expressions. The >challenge to our field is how to turn his extensive raw data into >articles ready for formal publication, not how to silence him. > >---Gerald Cohen > Professor of German and Russian > University of Missouri-Rolla > research specialty: etymology > co-author (with Barry Popik) of _Studies in Slang, vol. 6_. >(Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang), 1999 _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 21:20:27 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:20:27 EDT Subject: Big Easy (1948); Anyone who sees a psychiatrist... Message-ID: BIG EASY "Big Easy," one of the nicknames for New Orleans, is said to have been coined in the 1960s (according to the papers I read in the Historic New Orleans Collection). From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 27 December 1948, pg. 13, col. 7, "Matter of Fact" by Joseph Alsop: _Big Easy 103_ BERLIN. (...) Thirty-five minutes earlier Big Easy 103 had come in from Tempelhof. (It's the name of an airplane. This is easy to trace in military records--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- ANYONE WHO SEES A PSYCHIATRIST... A classic line. From THIS WEEK, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, "Best Laughs of 1948" by Irving Hoffman (of the HOLLYWOOD REPORTER), 26 December 1948, pg. 4, col. 1: Good Goldwynism: "Anybody who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined." (Later Sam said the Goldwynism wasn't his'n.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 21:53:49 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:53:49 EDT Subject: William McCoy, "King of Rum Runners" (the real McCoy?) Message-ID: From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 31 December 1948, pg. 14, col. 4: _William McCoy_ _Dies; "King of_ _Rum Runners"_ ----------------- _Captain's Aresthusa Hauled_ _Scotch to "Rum Row," Off_ _L.I., During Prohibition_ STUART, Fla., Dec. 30.--Captain William McCoy, seventy-one, who boasted that he was king of the rum runners during prohibition and coiner of the expression "the real McCoy," died today after a heart attacke aboard his boat, the Blue Lagoon of Coral Strand. Captain McCoy came to Florida from Syracuse, N.Y. in 1898 and with his brother Ben operated coastwise freight and passenger boats until prohibition came. He then bought a fast schooner, the Arethusa, with a capacity for 6,000 cases of liquor, and began hauling scotch from Nassau to a rendezvous off the Long Island coast that became known as Rum Row. The liquor he sold was always "the real McCoy" when it left his hands, he asserted, disclaiming responsibility for what might have happened to it after it reached the wholesalers and retailers in New York and New Jersey. According to his own account, he made one voyage a month, with a week to load, a week each way from Nassau, and a week to sell, and averaged $60,000 to $75,000 a trip. His buyers went out to Rum Row to speedboats that nearly always, when cornered, managed to out-run and out-maneuver the craft of revnue agents. Captain McCoy once explained why. "Simple," he said, "very simple. The Coast Guard orders a fleet of faster boats. Specifications are printed in the papers. The rum mob takes the specifications to a Brooklyn man and says, 'Make us a crate that's ten miles faster than these.'" Some of these boats, powered with three Liberty motors, attained a top speed of fifty miles an hour and one of them during a test run ran circles around the Ile de France, outward bound at full speed. After repeal Captain McCoy, with little left of his rum-running wealth, turned to real estate. The famed Arethusa collided with an iceberg in the North Atlantic and sank. In recent years he built a sixty-foot motor sailer in which he and his brother and their cronies made cruises to the Bahamas and West Indies. He also took up painting as a hobby after a friend gave him a box of paints, and his work was considered better than average. Surviving, besides his brother, is a sister, Mrs. Violet Clark, of Deland, Fla. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 23:12:21 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:12:21 EDT Subject: Barry Popik Message-ID: Since we're on the subject of Barry Popik, I have a question that is actually germane to the mission of this list: Mr. Popik has frequently stated (generally in missives to the New York Times or other publications that he chooses to quote from for this list) that he is a "contributor to the OED". This may prove (if anyone doubted) that I am an amateur, but I admit to being baffled by this phrase. Is "contributor to the OED" an official title, presumably awarded by Oxford University Press? Or is it a folk tradition among the etymological community, awarded by a consensus of one's peers? Or is it a title that anyone can claim? Does it represent a level or quantity of submissions? Or what? James A. Landau Systems Engineer FAA Technical Center (ACT-350/BCI) Atlantic City Airport NJ 08405 USA P.S. Sorry for the unnecessary dangling preposition in the second paragraph. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 23:22:57 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:22:57 EDT Subject: Big Easy (1948); Anyone who sees a psychiatrist... Message-ID: In a message dated 09/18/2001 5:21:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > _Big Easy 103_ > BERLIN. (...) Thirty-five minutes earlier Big Easy 103 had come in from > Tempelhof. > > (It's the name of an airplane. This is easy to trace in military records-- > ed.) I don't have enough context to be certain, but I am dubious that "Big Easy 103" is the name of an individual airplane. Planes have tail numbers (i.e. the number painted on the wings and tail) and some have nicknames. However, a nickname is highly unlikely to have a number in it, particularly a number as high as 103. "BIg Easy 103" sounds like a code name for an individual flight of an airplane, or perhaps it refers to the 103rd in a series of flights that were codenamed "Big Easy". If "Big Easy" is a nickname, it may be quite difficult to chase down in military records. Official records about airplanes include considerable data from maintenance logs and airport departure/arrival lists, and these logs will, to avoid ambiguity, always refer to an airplane by its tail number or its manufacturer's serial number. James A. Landau Systems Engineer FAA Technical Center (ACT-350/BCI) Atlantic City Airport NJ 08405 USA From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Sep 18 23:49:57 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:49:57 -0400 Subject: Big Easy (1948); Anyone who sees a psychiatrist... In-Reply-To: <45.c0e6ebe.28d93151@aol.com>; from JJJRLandau@AOL.COM on Tue, Sep 18, 2001 at 07:22:57PM -0400 Message-ID: > > If "Big Easy" is a nickname, it may be quite difficult to chase down in > military records. Official records about airplanes include considerable data > from maintenance logs and airport departure/arrival lists, and these logs > will, to avoid ambiguity, always refer to an airplane by its tail number or > its manufacturer's serial number. There are, however, a number of books about aircraft nose art and similar things of the World War II era; Lighter's read a number of them for HDAS and they've been very useful. He's never found a "Big Easy", though. Jesse Sheidlower From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Sep 18 23:55:39 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:55:39 -0400 Subject: Barry Popik In-Reply-To: <86.fbf6176.28d92ed5@aol.com>; from JJJRLandau@AOL.COM on Tue, Sep 18, 2001 at 07:12:21PM -0400 Message-ID: > Is "contributor to the OED" an official title, presumably awarded by Oxford > University Press? Or is it a folk tradition among the etymological > community, awarded by a consensus of one's peers? Or is it a title that > anyone can claim? Does it represent a level or quantity of submissions? Or > what? It's not an official title, and it's not "awarded". I don't know, I don't think there's ever been a case of someone trying to claim it underservedly. Certainly if someone _were_ falsely claiming that they were connected to the OED in order to get something (access, recognition, whatever), we would do something about it. Whatever the threshold, Barry's _way_ past it. Jesse Sheidlower OED contributor-maker From douglas at NB.NET Tue Sep 18 23:56:20 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:56:20 -0400 Subject: Big Easy (1948); Anyone who sees a psychiatrist... In-Reply-To: <45.c0e6ebe.28d93151@aol.com> Message-ID: > > BERLIN. (...) Thirty-five minutes earlier Big Easy 103 had come in >from > > Tempelhof. > > > > (It's the name of an airplane. This is easy to trace in military > records-- > > ed.) Even easier than that, maybe, to get some idea ... since we have the Internet and Google. With respect to the Berlin Airlift: http://members.aol.com/airlift48/page2.html <> http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/billvons/bal/navy.htm <> -- Doug Wilson From mnewman at QC.EDU Wed Sep 19 13:42:04 2001 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:42:04 -0400 Subject: YOH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >sed. > >That might be the usage I've been hearing. It has that downstress >which is probably why I think I hear a residual "l" sound from >y'all. I'll try to listen more carefully. > >Benjamin Barrett Actually, I met someone else who thought the same thing. It's not surprising particularly since the pronunciation of 'y'all' in NYC uses a vocalized /l/ following the AAVE phonology and the vowel nucleus is often high. Still, it is different, which if anyone has any doubts, was confirmed to me by one high school kid, clearly a potential linguist, who commented on the two uses to me, when I asked him about 'yo.' I should add, that the phrase final, emphasizing usage, appears mostly limited to kids associated with hip-hop. As for it's origins, already mentioned Frank McCourt's report (in his memoir 'Tis) with horse handlers. I think Rocky is a two-edged sword in the sense of supporting a Philadelphia folk source, which may or may not be accurate. It's certainly just as common in NY and probably other places. I don't remember hearing it when I was in high school in NYC in the early '70s. The vocative use seems to have become more widespread in the 1980s. The emphasizing use appears in the 1990s. While I'm no expert on poetics, I've noticed that it is quite useful for MCs (roughly rap artists who improvise) because it provides an extra syllable that can be placed as needed to fit the target meter. For what it's worth, my research assistant, an MC, uses it to answer the phone. Me: Is K there? K 's brother: K ! Phone! K : Yo! On the subject of y'all and hip-hop, I just want to comment on an interesting 2pp form that is increasingly common here in conversation and can be found in rap lyrics. It will undoubtedly upset many people but is interesting from a linguistic perspective because it is a double plural, on the model of "vosotros": "Y'all niggaz" (that's the usual spelling). -- Michael Newman Assistant Professor of Applied Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 From ariker at IREX.ORG Wed Sep 19 17:06:30 2001 From: ariker at IREX.ORG (Anthony Riker) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:06:30 -0400 Subject: IREX 2002-2003 US Scholar Grant Opportunities Message-ID: IREX is pleased to announce its 2002-2003 grant opportunities for US scholars. For additional information and requirements for the programs, please visit the IREX web site. With funding from the United States Department of State (Title VIII Program and the Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs), National Endowment for the Humanities, The Starr Foundation, John J. and Nancy Lee Roberts, and its own Scholar Support Fund, IREX supports the following programs: INDIVIDUAL ADVANCED RESEARCH OPPORTUNITIES PROGRAM (IARO) Grants of up to $30,000 for two to nine months to US scholars for research in the social sciences and humanities at institutions in Eastern Europe and the NIS. Applicants can choose from the Fellowships in Policy Research and Development or Fellowships in Humanities options. Limited funding is available for cross-regional research in Turkey and Iran for humanities scholars. CHANGE TO 2002-2003 IARO PROGRAM APPLICATION Holders of terminal master's degrees are eligible for the IARO program. If you downloaded the 2002-2003 IARO application prior to September 1, 2001, you may submit your application using the old form. The only change is that the eligibility has been expanded to include holders of terminal master's degrees. -NEW- Grants for one to three months are now available to master's level students for research on policy relevant theses or equivalent projects. Deadline: November 1, 2001 For more information, please see the IREX web site at < http://www.irex.org/programs/iaro/index.htm > RUSSIAN-US YOUNG LEADERSHIP FELLOWS FOR PUBLIC SERVICE PROGRAM Fully funded, one-year fellowships for non-degree graduate-level academic programs in the field of Russian area studies, including course work in conflict resolution, economics, government studies, history, international relations, and political science at universities throughout the Russian Federation. The program also includes a public service component and a professional internship. Deadline: November 30, 2001 For more information, please see the IREX web site at < http://www.irex.org/programs/ylf/index.htm > CASPIAN SEA REGIONAL POLICY SYMPOSIUM IREX, in collaboration with the Woodrow Wilson Center for International Scholars, will hold a symposium for senior and junior US scholars to discuss a variety of political, economic, historical, and cultural topics related to the Caspian Sea Region. Junior scholars will be chosen based on a national competition. Applications must demonstrate a commitment to continued study, research, and work on and with the countries of the Caspian Sea Region. The symposium is scheduled for Spring 2002 in the Washington, DC area. Deadline: December 1, 2001 For more information please see the IREX web site at < http://www.irex.org/programs/caspian-sea/index.htm > REGIONAL SCHOLAR EXCHANGE PROGRAM Grants of up to nine months for US university faculty and scholars at early stages of their careers, advanced graduate students, and associate professors to conduct independent research in the humanities and social sciences at institutions in the NIS. All research proposals must demonstrate relevance to the political, economic, social, legal, educational, historical, and philosophical challenges facing the NIS or the United States and show how their research will contribute to the advancement of higher education. Deadline: January 15, 2002 The web page for the Regional Scholar Exchange Program is currently being updated. SHORT-TERM TRAVEL GRANTS PROGRAM Grants of up to $3,000 for up to two months of travel to Eastern Europe and the NIS for postdoctoral scholars and professionals with terminal degrees who do not require administrative support from IREX. These projects in the social sciences and humanities should demonstrate academic merit and relevance and contribute to the body of knowledge on these regions through the dissemination of research results. Limited funding is available for travel to Turkey and Iran for cross-regional research in the humanities. Deadline: February 1, 2002 For more information, please see the IREX web site at < http://www.irex.org/programs/stg/index.htm > JOHN J. AND NANCY LEE ROBERTS FELLOWSHIP PROGRAM A single grant of up to $50,000 for research projects lasting up to 18 months. This program supports cutting-edge research in the social sciences in Eastern Europe, the NIS, China, Mongolia, Turkey, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iran for scholars with PhD or equivalent terminal degrees. Collaborative research programs involving international colleagues are strongly encouraged. Deadline: April 15, 2002 For more information, please see the IREX web site at < http://www.irex.org/programs/roberts/index.htm > BLACK AND CASPIAN SEA COLLABORATIVE RESEARCH PROGRAM Grants of up to $25,000 to a collaborative team of graduate and/or postgraduate scholars conducting research for up to one year, focusing on issues of practical relevance and current interest to academic, corporate, and policymaking communities. The collaborative team must consist of a minimum of three people: at least one US citizen or permanent resident and at least two citizens and current residents of two different countries of the Black and Caspian Sea region at the time of application. Deadline: May 1, 2002 For more information, please see the IREX web site at < http://www.irex.org/programs/black-caspian-sea/index.htm > Eligibility requirements vary by program. Please contact IREX for applications and further information on these and other programs. Applications may be downloaded from the web sites. IREX 1616 H Street, NW 6th Floor Washington, DC 20006 Tel: 202-628-8188 Fax: 202-628-8189 E-mail: < irex at irex.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 19 17:20:01 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:20:01 EDT Subject: Only in New York City (1949) Message-ID: I have a few minutes. Here's a brief roundup from the New York Herald Tribune. I must stress that some items are "better" than others--please use extreme caution. The ADS web page wasn't available today when I checked it. -------------------------------------------------------- ONLY IN NEW YORK CITY (continued) Cindy Adams, gossip columnist of the New York Post, tried to register "Only in New York." "Only in New York City," by Richard B, Gehman, is in THIS WEEK, NYHT, 23 January 1949, pg. 10. This is earlier than the popular song "Only in America." -------------------------------------------------------- WILLIE HOWARD & "COMES THE REVOLUTION" The NYHT, 13 January 1949, obituary for Willie Howard reveals that he was a dialect comedian who possibly put several slang phrases into circulation. I'll check his file when the Performing Arts Library reopens. From col. 3: For each of his classic sketches--"The Quartet," "Mexican Presidents," "I Can Get It for You Wholesale," "After the Opera" or "French Lessons"--he had a different approach. His famous "Rewolt" routine ("Comes the ravalution, you'll eat strawberries and like it!") furnished a favorite gag for the depression years. -------------------------------------------------------- SIGNS ON WALLS From THIS WEEK, 2 January 1949, pg. 8, col. 1: CORN: Signs on walls are as old as the hills (Above this photo caption are:--ed.} YOU HAVE TRIED THE REST, NOW TRY THE BEST. IF WE PLEASE YOU TELL YOUR FRIENDS. IF NOT TELL US. -------------------------------------------------------- EARTH-BROWN From the NYHT, 29 December 1948, pg. 12, col. 5: _"Earth-Brown"_ _Is New Color in_ _Latest Carpets_ -------------------------------------------------------- REPUBLOCRAT WHING-DING The cartoon appeared in the Detroit Free Press. From the NYHT, section II, pg. 7, col. 3: That Republocrat Whing-Ding -------------------------------------------------------- PEACE OFFENSIVE Compare with "charm offensive." One of many cartoon captions is the NYHT, 24 January 1949, pg. 18, cols. 5-7: "That's What Some People Call a 'Peace Offensive.'" -------------------------------------------------------- QUICKIE VACATION I used to hear this a lot. It was the line in the very frequent TWA ads, and one is in the NYHT, 13 January 1949, pg. 20, col. 2: GET A NEW LEASE ON LIVING...WITH A _Quickie Vacation_ IN CALIFORNIA OR THE SOUTHWEST only hours away, by TWA From nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Sep 19 17:16:51 2001 From: nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET (Nancy Elliott) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:16:51 -0700 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Arriving to give hope during a terrible tragedy, Brian David Elliott Rogers was born on Monday, Sept. 10 at 1:59 pm after 45 hours of labor, and weighed 6 lb, 6 oz. Mom, ADS member Nancy Elliott, is recovering after a very long hospital stay and will somehow find time to resume her studies of rhoticity in American English 'public' speech. Best wishes, Nancy Elliott and David Rogers Southern Oregon University -------------------------- ps- Nancy is glad that Barry Popik is still alive to clog her email, and confesses she occasionally forwards his old recipes to friends before she deletes stuff. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Sep 19 17:48:49 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:48:49 -0400 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nancy, As President I offer a hearty welcome to a future ADS member. I suppose little Brian's rhoticity has not yet been decided on (although I suspect a tough row to hoe out there in Southern Oregon if a nonrhotic variety is selected for him). Best, dInIs >Arriving to give hope during a terrible tragedy, > >Brian David Elliott Rogers was born on Monday, Sept. 10 at 1:59 pm after 45 >hours of labor, and weighed 6 lb, 6 oz. > >Mom, ADS member Nancy Elliott, is recovering after a very long hospital stay >and will somehow find time to resume her studies of rhoticity in American >English 'public' speech. > >Best wishes, > >Nancy Elliott and David Rogers >Southern Oregon University > > >-------------------------- > >ps- Nancy is glad that Barry Popik is still alive to clog her email, and >confesses she occasionally forwards his old recipes to friends before she >deletes stuff. -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Sep 19 17:41:32 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:41:32 -0400 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member In-Reply-To: ; from nelliott1@EARTHLINK.NET on Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:16:51AM -0700 Message-ID: > > Brian David Elliott Rogers was born on Monday, Sept. 10 at 1:59 pm after 45 > hours of labor, and weighed 6 lb, 6 oz. Congratulations! Jesse Sheidlower From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Sep 19 18:03:54 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:03:54 -0700 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member Message-ID: dInIs sez, to nancy elliott/david rogers, re newborn brian: >As President I offer a hearty welcome to a future ADS member. I >suppose little Brian's rhoticity has not yet been decided on >(although I suspect a tough row to hoe out there in Southern Oregon >if a nonrhotic variety is selected for him). parents, set your parameters well! arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), welcoming little brian (don't we provide free memberships until actual Competence is observed and verified?) From nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Sep 19 18:02:23 2001 From: nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET (Nancy Elliott) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:02:23 -0700 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member In-Reply-To: Message-ID: i'd say his rhoticity is pretty much a done deal, with caucasian parents from detroit and kansas city and being raised in orygun... the burning question for me is, will he have the pin-pen merger? nancy, typing with one hand while holding a baby with the other > From: "Dennis R. Preston" > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:48:49 -0400 > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: announcing newest little ADS member > > Nancy, > > As President I offer a hearty welcome to a future ADS member. I > suppose little Brian's rhoticity has not yet been decided on > (although I suspect a tough row to hoe out there in Southern Oregon > if a nonrhotic variety is selected for him). > > Best, > > dInIs > >> Arriving to give hope during a terrible tragedy, >> >> Brian David Elliott Rogers was born on Monday, Sept. 10 at 1:59 pm after 45 >> hours of labor, and weighed 6 lb, 6 oz. >> >> Mom, ADS member Nancy Elliott, is recovering after a very long hospital stay >> and will somehow find time to resume her studies of rhoticity in American >> English 'public' speech. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Nancy Elliott and David Rogers >> Southern Oregon University >> >> >> -------------------------- >> >> ps- Nancy is glad that Barry Popik is still alive to clog her email, and >> confesses she occasionally forwards his old recipes to friends before she >> deletes stuff. > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Department of Linguistics and Languages > Michigan State University > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA > preston at pilot.msu.edu > Office: (517)353-0740 > Fax: (517)432-2736 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Sep 19 18:21:49 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:21:49 -0400 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Nancy Elliott wrote: > i'd say his rhoticity is pretty much a done deal, with caucasian parents >from detroit and kansas city and being raised in orygun... the burning >question for me is, will he have the pin-pen merger? Tutoring could be arranged -- but, congratulations whichever! Bethany From lisa.heitman at LIST-UNIVERSE.COM Wed Sep 19 18:22:22 2001 From: lisa.heitman at LIST-UNIVERSE.COM (Lisa Marie Heitman) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:22:22 -0500 Subject: Remove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:02 AM 9/19/2001 -0700, you wrote: > i'd say his rhoticity is pretty much a done deal, with caucasian parents >from detroit and kansas city and being raised in orygun... the burning >question for me is, will he have the pin-pen merger? > >nancy, typing with one hand while holding a baby with the other > > > > > From: "Dennis R. Preston" > > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:48:49 -0400 > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: announcing newest little ADS member > > > > Nancy, > > > > As President I offer a hearty welcome to a future ADS member. I > > suppose little Brian's rhoticity has not yet been decided on > > (although I suspect a tough row to hoe out there in Southern Oregon > > if a nonrhotic variety is selected for him). > > > > Best, > > > > dInIs > > > >> Arriving to give hope during a terrible tragedy, > >> > >> Brian David Elliott Rogers was born on Monday, Sept. 10 at 1:59 pm > after 45 > >> hours of labor, and weighed 6 lb, 6 oz. > >> > >> Mom, ADS member Nancy Elliott, is recovering after a very long > hospital stay > >> and will somehow find time to resume her studies of rhoticity in American > >> English 'public' speech. > >> > >> Best wishes, > >> > >> Nancy Elliott and David Rogers > >> Southern Oregon University > >> > >> > >> -------------------------- > >> > >> ps- Nancy is glad that Barry Popik is still alive to clog her email, and > >> confesses she occasionally forwards his old recipes to friends before she > >> deletes stuff. > > > > -- > > Dennis R. Preston > > Department of Linguistics and Languages > > Michigan State University > > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA > > preston at pilot.msu.edu > > Office: (517)353-0740 > > Fax: (517)432-2736 From douglas at NB.NET Wed Sep 19 19:12:17 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:12:17 -0400 Subject: Same old Message-ID: I've done a little reading. Jonathon Green was kind enough to provide his input. Not much new. The earliest I found "same ol' same ol'" is in Major's "Dictionary of Afro-American Slang" (1970) (p. 100). The earliest I found "samo-samo" is in "American Speech" 30(1):44-8 (1955) (p. 46) (A. M. Z. Norman, "Bamboo English"). Norman does not give any reason for the appearance of this form, but he attributes it to the Japanese speakers of 'bamboo English' (= 'pidgin English of the occupation') rather than to the Americans. He does note that there were other reduplications, but these are characteristic of 'pidgin' more than of Japanese, I think, and there is no other unexpected "-o". As for what it is that was reduplicated, I still suspect that it may have been "same old", i.e., that the "-o" came from English "old". However, I did find a single case in which a gratuitous "-o" was affixed to something in a quotation from a Japanese speaking 'English': whether this was simply an American's perception of a terminal Japanese "-u", I don't know, and this was a unique occurrence ("all-night-sleep-o house" was the expression IIRC, probably = "inn" [whatever it is, the speaker was pointing out that a certain district was rural and didn't have any of them]). I found one instance of "PX-o" from Korea, but I can't tell whether this is spoken by a Korean or not: it was just an item in a word list. It is possible that "samo" or even "samo-samo" was simply a nonsense augmentation of "same" by American servicemen ("That's how we used to say 'same' in Tijuana, maybe it'll work here too" or "I think these people will understand English if you repeat each word slowly, with 'o' or 'a' on the end; they understood me fine that way in Manila"). -- Doug Wilson From gbarrett at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Sep 19 19:28:25 2001 From: gbarrett at COLUMBIA.EDU (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:28:25 -0400 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member In-Reply-To: <200109191803.f8JI3sc26945@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: On 9/19/01 14:03, "Arnold Zwicky" wrote: > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), welcoming little brian > (don't we provide free memberships until actual Competence > is observed and verified?) So that's why I never have to pay... -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Sep 19 20:02:05 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:02:05 -0400 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Let's hope you enstill this obviously superior dialect trait in hem. dInIs > i'd say his rhoticity is pretty much a done deal, with caucasian parents >from detroit and kansas city and being raised in orygun... the burning >question for me is, will he have the pin-pen merger? > >nancy, typing with one hand while holding a baby with the other > > > >> From: "Dennis R. Preston" >> Reply-To: American Dialect Society >> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:48:49 -0400 >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: announcing newest little ADS member >> >> Nancy, >> >> As President I offer a hearty welcome to a future ADS member. I >> suppose little Brian's rhoticity has not yet been decided on >> (although I suspect a tough row to hoe out there in Southern Oregon >> if a nonrhotic variety is selected for him). >> >> Best, >> >> dInIs >> >>> Arriving to give hope during a terrible tragedy, >>> >>> Brian David Elliott Rogers was born on Monday, Sept. 10 at 1:59 pm after 45 >>> hours of labor, and weighed 6 lb, 6 oz. >>> >>> Mom, ADS member Nancy Elliott, is recovering after a very long >>>hospital stay >>> and will somehow find time to resume her studies of rhoticity in American >>> English 'public' speech. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Nancy Elliott and David Rogers >>> Southern Oregon University >>> >>> >>> -------------------------- >>> >>> ps- Nancy is glad that Barry Popik is still alive to clog her email, and >>> confesses she occasionally forwards his old recipes to friends before she >>> deletes stuff. >> >> -- >> Dennis R. Preston >> Department of Linguistics and Languages >> Michigan State University >> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA >> preston at pilot.msu.edu >> Office: (517)353-0740 >> Fax: (517)432-2736 -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Sep 19 20:03:58 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:03:58 -0400 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member In-Reply-To: <200109191803.f8JI3sc26945@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: arnld, Careful! Let's not bring about a split in the membership about the age of competence!! (Your suggestions have a nasty empirical ring to them.) dInIs >dInIs sez, to nancy elliott/david rogers, re newborn brian: > >As President I offer a hearty welcome to a future ADS member. I > >suppose little Brian's rhoticity has not yet been decided on > >(although I suspect a tough row to hoe out there in Southern Oregon > >if a nonrhotic variety is selected for him). > >parents, set your parameters well! > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), welcoming little brian > (don't we provide free memberships until actual Competence > is observed and verified?) -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Sep 19 19:57:21 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:57:21 -0400 Subject: accents & prescriptivism Message-ID: We have had some discussion here lately about those who dislike the accents of others. One's response to another's accent is not always an esthetic matter. This is from the [New York] Commercial Advertiser, July 28, 1830, p. 2, col. 5: A woman named Hagley, native of England residing in Hudson street, died on Saturday by taking Opium Pills, which were sent by a druggist who mistook the messenger's pronunciation of "opening". He can scarcely be fit to send drugs. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Sep 19 08:29:34 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:29:34 +0800 Subject: accents & prescriptivism In-Reply-To: <1ead3601eaf39a.1eaf39a1ead360@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: At 3:57 PM -0400 9/19/01, George Thompson wrote: >We have had some discussion here lately about those who dislike the >accents of others. One's response to another's accent is not always an >esthetic matter. > >This is from the [New York] Commercial Advertiser, July 28, 1830, p. 2, >col. 5: > >A woman named Hagley, native of England residing in Hudson street, died >on Saturday by taking Opium Pills, which were sent by a druggist who >mistook the messenger's pronunciation of "opening". He can scarcely be >fit to send drugs. > >GAT > No wonder they switched to written prescriptions (albeit famously in illegible form). But I wonder about those "Opening Pills" that were evidently intended for poor Ms. Hagley. Think of all those poor people who were inadverently turned into opium addicts, when they were just trying to be opened. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Sep 19 08:31:45 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:31:45 +0800 Subject: Bapopik In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:59 PM -0400 9/18/01, Fred Shapiro wrote: >Barry is an "amateur" in that he operates outside the academic world and >does his researches without compensation. His work, however, is of such >brilliance that he is nonetheless a noted authority on slang and food >words and other areas of American vocabulary. He fits into a long >tradition of amateur historical-lexicographical researchers, people like >Marghanita Laski, W. C. Minor,... and he hasn't committed homicide L From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Sep 19 20:56:56 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:56:56 -0400 Subject: Barry Popik In-Reply-To: <20010918195539.B784@panix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > Is "contributor to the OED" an official title, presumably awarded by Oxford > > University Press? Or is it a folk tradition among the etymological > > community, awarded by a consensus of one's peers? Or is it a title that > > anyone can claim? Does it represent a level or quantity of submissions? Or > > what? > > It's not an official title, and it's not "awarded". There is some officialness to it, in that the print and online versions of the OED both include lists of "principal contributors" and "consultants." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From douglas at NB.NET Wed Sep 19 21:08:44 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:08:44 -0400 Subject: accents & prescriptivism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >No wonder they switched to written prescriptions (albeit famously in >illegible form). But I wonder about those "Opening Pills" that were >evidently intended for poor Ms. Hagley. Think of all those poor >people who were inadverently turned into opium addicts, when they >were just trying to be opened. I'm not sure prescriptions were required in 1830, even for narcotics. Maybe Mrs. Hagley just sent for some opening pills (i.e., laxative pills) on her own. Maybe she should have read the label if there was one (and if it was legible) ... but I wonder whether in those days it would have been in pharmacists' Latin with cryptic symbols. One would expect the opium to worsen her constipation, so she'd take a bigger dose, then later -- if she still lived -- perhaps she'd be unable to remember whether she had taken any recently or not, better take several more pills, etc. .... -- Doug Wilson From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Sep 19 20:15:13 2001 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:15:13 -0600 Subject: Yo Message-ID: From: Ed Keer : I remember Yo being a stereotypical Philadelphia slang : term in the 80s, before I ever heard it in AAVE. : Think Rocky: "Yo! Adrienne..." I'm sure there were : some articles on this in the Philadelphia Inquirer. "Yo" is used, in my experience as a grad student at Penn, by Philadelphians as a greeting as an in-group marker. I don't know if it's still the case, but the Philadelphia _Daily_news_'s style/daybreak/whatever section at least used to be titled the "Yo! Philly!" section. David Bowie Department of English Assistant Professor Brigham Young University db.list at pmpkn.net http://pmpkn.net/lx The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Sep 19 21:22:10 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:22:10 EDT Subject: New York Times Corrections Message-ID: In a message dated 9/16/01 6:59:08 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: <> I don't care whether you forget your little quarrels or not--it is not my concern: your relationship with Safire, the City of Chicago, and so on is NOT professional stuff. It is your own personal griping about feeling dissed. Am I the only one who is not surprised that you equate the loss of the World Trade Center with the TIMES' slights of you? The professionals know what the linguistic facts are--what difference does it make whether Safire spells Fitz Gerald the way Fitz Gerald spelled it? Stick to the wonderful work that you do. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 19 22:55:02 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:55:02 EDT Subject: MSG (1949); Telegraph "Bug" Message-ID: MSG (continued) I had previously posted May 1949 (ADS-L archives). From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 22 March 1949, pg. 18, col. 7: "Enhance" is the new item in the line. This is our old friend M. S. G. (mono-sodium glutamate) deck out in new dress blended with the popular pot herbs of the French, a bit of dextrose added to tone down the glutamate. (Caution! Beware of giving MSG to young children! Consult your doctor!...I'll post some recipes perhaps later tonight, when the library is closed--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- TELEGRAPH "BUG" FWIW, from the NYHT, 1 March 1949, pg. 23, col. 5: _Dempsey's Savior_ _In Fight With Firpo_ _Turns in His "Bug"_ Gray-haired Perry Grogan packed away his "bug" for the last time last night and announced his retirement as a telegraph operator. (...) For twenty-four years Grogan worked his "bug" at every World Series game, major fight, football game and other sports event in the East. For the last fifteen years he had been in charge of Western Union facilities at Grand Central Terminal, the busiest telegraph counter in the world. From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Wed Sep 19 23:16:59 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:16:59 -0400 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: <00bb01c14147$d130bc00$5729bb80@dtsnia.net> Message-ID: A student of mine said that his German professor insists that "yo" is a shortening of German "jawohl"--and he gave a long explanation of why which I can't remember. I can't buy this at all, but has anyone else heard it??? Could it have been "PA dutchified"? At 02:15 PM 9/19/01 -0600, you wrote: >From: Ed Keer > >: I remember Yo being a stereotypical Philadelphia slang >: term in the 80s, before I ever heard it in AAVE. >: Think Rocky: "Yo! Adrienne..." I'm sure there were >: some articles on this in the Philadelphia Inquirer. > >"Yo" is used, in my experience as a grad student at Penn, by Philadelphians >as a greeting as an in-group marker. > >I don't know if it's still the case, but the Philadelphia _Daily_news_'s >style/daybreak/whatever section at least used to be titled the "Yo! Philly!" >section. > >David Bowie Department of English >Assistant Professor Brigham Young University >db.list at pmpkn.net http://pmpkn.net/lx > The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Sep 20 00:36:52 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:36:52 EDT Subject: MSG (1949); Telegraph "Bug" Message-ID: In a message dated 09/19/2001 6:56:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writeth: > FWIW, from the NYHT, 1 March 1949, pg. 23, col. 5: > > _Dempsey's Savior_ > _In Fight With Firpo_ > _Turns in His "Bug"_ > Gray-haired Perry Grogan packed away his "bug" for the last time last > night and announced his retirement as a telegraph operator. (...) > For twenty-four years Grogan worked his "bug" at every World Series game, > major fight, football game and other sports event in the East. "bug" is not a slang term for a telegraph key; rather it is Morse operators' jargon for a specific type of telegraph key. With a bug, holding the key to one side produces any desired numbers of "dits" (dots) and the dahs (dashes) are produced in the traditional way, by holding down and then releasing the key for each dah. The official name is something like "semi-automatic key". With a conventional telegraph key an operator is limited to something like (if I remember correctly) 20 words per minute using International Morse (a little faster with Railway Morse). With a bug speeds of something like (IIRC) 60 wpm are possible. (A key that automatically produces dits like a bug and any desired number of dahs by moving the key in the opposite direction is a "keyer".) I learned about bugs circa 1960 when K4JGC gave our seventh grade class a tour of his ham station and showed us how a bug worked. It is possible that Mr. Grogran used a bug instead of a conventional key, or a keyer, but I suspect that the the NYHT writer simply didn't know his telegraph jargon. - Jim Landau (who is NOT a Morse operator) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 20 00:39:09 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:39:09 EDT Subject: Knisches & "Rugelach" (1949) Message-ID: Happy Jewish New Year (if it can be happy at a time like this). Sweets are traditionally made, to ring in a sweet new year. I've looked everywhere for "rugelach." I don't have access to M-W's and OED's files. This is close--too bad it's "Jewish-style homemade cookies." From Clementine Paddleford's colmn in the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 6 April 1949, pg. 18, col. 7: KNISCHE ARTIST--Bella Danchelsky is an artist with the knisches. The strudel-type dough she uses, thin as gossamer, flaky and tender, the fillings nicely seasoned. Knisches three stules are offered by Bella, potato for one, these to use instead of potatoes with the meat course at dinner, or kasha, that's buckwheat to use the same way. Cheese knisches have a filling of pot cheese, this cottage cheese to which cream has been added. A trifle too sweet four our taste but many like them just so, saying the sweeter the better. Cheese knisches go well as dessert, sour cream for a topper, this sprinkled with grated orange peel. Potato and buckwheat knisches are five cents a piece, the cheese kind costs a dime. Orders are taken for no less than a dozen, delivery made anywhere in Manhattan or Brooklyn. You pay the carfare. Eat your knisches blistering hot. Ten minutes in the oven just before serving is the right heating time. Jewish-style homemade cookies are another product of Bella Danchelsky's kitchen, the dough for these is made with cream cheese and creamery butter, made very short and filled with strawberry and raspberry jam, selling $1.25 a pound and well worth the money. To order these good things call ESplanade 3-1865. Before Mrs. Danchelsky began her catering work she ran a tea room at home at 4915 Surf Avenue, Seagate. Every evening groups wandered in just to eat the knisches; now knisches she maakes her big business. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Sep 20 02:31:11 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 21:31:11 -0500 Subject: "Yo" Message-ID: At 7:16 PM -0400 9/19/01, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >A student of mine said that his German professor insists that "yo" is a >shortening of German "jawohl"--and he gave a long explanation of why which >I can't remember. I can't buy this at all, but has anyone else heard >it??? Could it have been "PA dutchified"? Germans do not use "jawohl" as a vocative, and they do not shorten "jawohl" to "yo." The suggestion of the German professor seems implausible. ---Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 20 04:58:30 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 00:58:30 EDT Subject: Shaggy Dog Story; One-Two Punch Message-ID: Two gems from the NYHT obituaries. -------------------------------------------------------- SHAGGY DOG STORY(?) From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 20 May 1949, pg. 18, col. 5: _Dr. Thomas Hinkle,_ _Wrote Dog Stories_ ------------------- _Author of 24 Books for_ _Young People_ ONAGA, Kan., May 19.--Dr. Thomas C. Hinkle, seventy-two, physician and author of dog and horse stories for young people, died at his home here last Friday. Dr. Hinkle's first book, "Tawny: A Dog of the Old West," was published by William Morrow Co. in 1927. His twenty-fourth, "Vic: A Dog of the Prairies," is scheduled for publication in July. The publishers have on hand three other manuscripts by him. Dr. Hinkle was born in Laciede, Ill. He attended high school in Junction City, Kan., and obtained his medical degree from the University of Kansas in 1904. He was later ordained a Congregationalist minister. His books found a wide audience among adults as wellished in as among the young people for whom they were primarily intended. The late William Allen White, editor of "The Emporia Gazette," said of "Shag: The Story of a Dog," published in 1931, that "here is a dog story that will stand among the best dog stories in this country." -------------------------------------------------------- ONE-TWO PUNCH The RHHDAS has 1811, then 1902. Could the 1811 cite be wrong?...Even if it is, 1902 seems a little early for this fighter to create and popularize it. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 19 May 1949, pg. 20, col. 8: _Willie Lewis Dies,_ _1900 Ring Favorite_ ------------------- _Fought Carpentier and_ _Ketchell; Was 64_ Willie Lewis, sixty-four, prominent welterweight from 1900 until his retirement in 1915, died yesterday at Polyclinic Hospital. Mr. Lewis fought such ring greats as Stanley Ketchell and Georges Carpentier, of France, in the years before World War I. Known as a tough fighter who went out of his class to meet middleweights, light heavies and heavyweights, he never won a title but was a contender during the major part of his boxing career. After losing to Ketchell, he went to Europe and became extremely popular, especially with the French. He was credited with being one of those who introduced American ring methods in that country and was supposed also to have originated the "one-two" punch. After retiring from the ring he became manager of a cafe known as the Chateau Thierry on East Fourteenth Street. While working there one night in 1920 he was shot at close range by one of three gunmen who entered the cafe. Newspapers of the following day quoted doctors as saying that he could not live but he recovered completely. The reason for the shooting was never learned. Mr. Lewis was popular with fight fans because of his clean-cut appearance and because he was known always to put on an honest fight. His admirers called him the "Gas House Champion." (The best source to check boxing news of the 1900 period is THE POLICE GAZETTE. The American Periodical Series microfilm of this publication ends about 1899, however--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 20 05:54:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 01:54:45 EDT Subject: Cioppino (a San Francisco dish) Message-ID: DARE has 1954. From John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK: _cioppino._ A fish stew cooked with tomatoes, wine, and spices, and associated at least since the 1930s with San Francisco, where it is still a specialty in many restaurants (1935). The word is Italian, from a Genoese dialect, _ciuppin_, for a fish stew, and the dish seems to have originated with the Italian immigrants of San Francisco, who often used the crabmeat available in the city's markets. From THIS WEEK magazine, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 13 March 1949, pg. 54, col. 2: _HOW AMERICA EATS_ by Clementine Paddleford _SAN FRANCISCO: Supper on Fisherman's Wharf_ _"Cioppino," a California creation,_ _is a strange and wonderful mixture_ _of seafare. Here's how to make it_ SAN FRANCISCO's blue bay stirred in uneasy ripples. Little fishing boats cast purple shadows as they rocked themselves to sleep there by Fisherman's Wharf. Gill netters, purse seiners, trollers, crab boats, day's work done, were bedded down for the night. I sat in a corner of Tarantino's Restaurant, its outer wall of clear glass, overlooking the harbor, looking into the West, all America at my back. There was Golden Gate Bridge, an arabesque in steel, delicate as spider's webbing against the coming night. I could see lofty Mt. Tamalpais. "What's this?" "Your bib, madam," said the waiter, tying a cloth of white around my neck. In red stitched lettering the bib announced "I'm eating cioppino." The words were scarcely digested when the stew arrived. The first fragrant fumes wreathed up to make friends with the nose. I poked into the dish with an exploring fork, a strange gathering of seafare--oysters, lobsters, crab, clams. Then the first rapturous taste of the sauce-steeped garlic bread--ummm, delectable sauce! This cioppino, pronounced "cho-PEEN-o," is a bouillabaisse of sorts, a kissing cousin of the bouillabaisse (Col. 3--ed.) of Mediterranean cities, but this a California creation found nowhere else. Don Sweeney, Jr., and Gene McAteer, the Erin lads who operate Tarantino's, told me the name is a corruption of the Italian word cuoco, which means "cook." A fisherman's concoction made first by the Genoese who man the small fishing boats which chug in and out of the harbor. The dish is made over charcoal braziers, made of whatever the day's catch supplies. It may be shellfish entirely, or seafood and shellfish, the various kinds washed, cleaned, layered in the pot; then a rich garlicky tomato sauce added and the collection cooked. The fishermen usually leave the shellfish in the shells; restaurants and home cooks more often remove the meat. It's all a matter of taste. _Add What You Please_ VISIT San Francisco and ea cioppino or make it at home usuing the day's market catch. Here we give you the recipe exactly as it's made in the Tarantino kitchen. All but the romance; the sight of drying crab nets, the music of water lapping the gray timbers of the pier, the scent of night fog rolling in from the Pacific to enclose the city of hills in a gray wall. A green salad is just right with this meal-in-a-bowl. Allow at least a half-dozen paper napkins apiece. Those who live inland may not be able to get the full assortment of shellfish mentioned, but never mind, do as Western cooks do--add what you please. As to seafood, boned striped bass and halibut, cut in two-inch (Pg. 55, col. 2--ed.) pieces, are favorites for cioppino. Start the layering with the fish on the bottom, then tuck in the rest, any which wasy, but layered as to kind. _Tarantino's Cioppino Sauce_ 4 cloves garlic, minced 1 medium onion, finely diced 1 green pepper, finely diced 1 leek with leaves, finely diced 3 green onions, finely diced 3 tablespoons oil 1 No. 2 can solid-pack tomatoes, chopped fine, with juice 1 8-ounce can tomato puree Pinch of thyme 1 bay leaf Salt and pepper to taste 2 cups white table wine Saute garlic, onion, green pepper, leek and green onions in oil until golden. Add tomatoes, tomato puree, thyme and bay leaf. Cook slowly two to three hours, covered, stirring frequently. Add salt and pepper to taste; add wine; cook 10 minutes longer and pour over shellfish. _Shellfish Assortment_ 16 littleneck clams in the shell, uncooked 4 medium oysters in the shell, uncooked 8 large shrimp, shelled, uncooked 2 small lobsters or 1 large, cooked 2 medium West Coast crabs or the East Coast hard-shelled crabs, cooked Allow clams and oysters to stand in fresh water for one hour to remove sand. Scrub shells thoroughly. Split lobsters in half in shell. Split the crabs in half; disjoint the legs. Place in layers in a deep saucepan. Cover with sauce; simmer, covered, 15 minutes, adding water if necessary. Heap into soup plates, garnish with garlic-toast fingers and serve from the kitchen. See that each bowl has some of each kind of fish and a big helping of the piping sauce. Yield: 4 portions. Many are the versions of this famous stew. Virtually anything goes if the sauce is good. R. A. Carey, a real-estate broker of San Anselmo, Cal., whose week-end (Col. 3--ed.) hobby is cooking for crowds, told us his way with the dish. He removes the fish from the shell, less messy eating. (Second long recipe is not typed--ed.) From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 20 06:35:46 2001 From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:35:46 -0400 Subject: "Gucci mujahideen" Message-ID: Found this one while reading some background information on bin Laden and Afghanistan: "To some relief workers and journalists, Arabi-backed fighters were often referred to as the Gucci mujahideen because of their elaborate weapons, vehicles, and Banana-Republic-style photo vests." http://www.csmonitor.com/earlyed/earlyWorld8.html From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 20 07:31:43 2001 From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:31:43 -0500 Subject: "Gucci mujahideen" Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From transedit.h at TELIA.COM Thu Sep 20 07:48:29 2001 From: transedit.h at TELIA.COM (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:48:29 +0200 Subject: "Yo" Message-ID: >At 7:16 PM -0400 9/19/01, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >> >>A student of mine said that his German professor insists that "yo" is a >>shortening of German "jawohl"--and he gave a long explanation of why which >>I can't remember. I can't buy this at all, but has anyone else heard >>it??? Could it have been "PA dutchified"? >Germans do not use "jawohl" as a vocative, and they do not >shorten "jawohl" to "yo." The suggestion of the German professor >seems implausible. >---Gerald Cohen I agree. During three years in Germany I never heard any "yo". But in northern Sweden (and the Swedish-speaking parts of Finland) "jo" is used as a variant of "ja" (yes), especially for expressing "I agree" or for insisting very strongly on what one just said. Many US immigrants came from those areas. Maybe their way of expressing agreement made its way into US English. Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 20 07:50:23 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 03:50:23 EDT Subject: Cioppino (1927) Message-ID: It's interesting that Mariani has 1935 and Merriam-Webster has 1936. Again, DARE has 1954. I checked around the house. Five Hundred Ways To Cook California Sea Food. Compiled by: State Fish Exchange California Department of Agriculture California State Printing Office Sacramento, 1927 FISH (...) Cioppino or Chepeno...41 From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Sep 20 09:34:49 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:34:49 +0100 Subject: One-Two Punch Message-ID: > -------------------------------------------------------- > ONE-TWO PUNCH > > The RHHDAS has 1811, then 1902. Could the 1811 cite be wrong?...Even if it is, 1902 seems a little early for this fighter to create and popularize it. No. RHDAS (citing OEDS) is spot on. There is a large vocabulary of early 19C prize-fighting slang (e.g. _smeller_, nose; _claret_, blood, _victualling department_ or _office_, stomach). The works of Pierce Egan (sporting journalist, editor in 1823 of the last revision of Grose's Classical Dict. of the Vulgar Tongue, and creator of the original 'Tom and Jerry') are its best repository. On 'one-two' my own files offer, inter alia: 1819 T. Moore _Tom Crib's Memorial to Congress_ 14: Which t'other observing _put in_ his ONE-TWO / Between GEORGY'S left ribs, with a knuckle so true 1823 'Jon Bee' _Slang_ 130: One-two (ring) - when both hands are applied to the antagonist quickly, he is said to have 'napt one-two' -three, sometimes; a saying created at Bristol and brouight up to London 1848 _Flash Dictionary_ (in _Sinks of London Laid Open_) 118: One two, two blows succeeding each other Jonathon Green From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Sep 20 13:00:50 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:00:50 -0400 Subject: "Yo" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Weren't there pizza places in the 14th or 15th Century known as "Shakey's" (presumably the kind of place you'd go for a morning pizza after a night out)? I seem to remember that they had a sign on the wall that went something like this: Shakey's made a deal with the bank: The bank won't make pizzas; Shakey's won't accept checks. Probably not their original, but I first noticed it there I thnk. So, Beverly, tell your student to go back to his German professor and tell him or her that us linguists are willing to make the same deal about teaching German if they'll reciprocate. dInIs PS: 'Course if they'd like to continue contributing to FOLK etymologies (my personal favorite), let them go full speed ahead. >At 7:16 PM -0400 9/19/01, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >> >>A student of mine said that his German professor insists that "yo" is a >>shortening of German "jawohl"--and he gave a long explanation of why which >>I can't remember. I can't buy this at all, but has anyone else heard >>it??? Could it have been "PA dutchified"? > > Germans do not use "jawohl" as a vocative, and they do not >shorten "jawohl" to "yo." The suggestion of the German professor >seems implausible. > >---Gerald Cohen -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From s.roberts at RODOPI.NL Thu Sep 20 12:41:08 2001 From: s.roberts at RODOPI.NL (Suzanne Roberts) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:41:08 +0200 Subject: new book Message-ID: MARIA CHRISTINA FUMAGALLI The Flight of the Vernacular Seamus Heaney, Derek Walcott and the Impress of Dante Amsterdam/New York, NY 2001. XXVI,303 pp. (Cross/Cultures 49) ISBN: 90-420-1476-8 Bound EUR 75,- /US-$ 70.- ISBN: 90-420-1466-0 Paper EUR 30,-/US-$ 28.- In this book, Dante, Seamus Heaney and Derek Walcott engage in an eloquent and meaningful conversation. Dante's capacity for being faithful to the collective historical experience and true to the recognitions of the emerging self, the permanent immediacy of his poetry, the healthy state of his language, which is so close to the object that the two are identified, and his adamant refusal to get lost in the wide and open sea of abstraction - all these are shown to have affected, and to continue to affect, Heaney's and Walcott's work. The Flight of the Vernacular, however, is not only a record of what Dante means to the two contemporary poets but also a cogent study of Heaney's and Walcott's attitude towards language and of their views on the function of poetry in our time. Heaney's programmatic endeavour to be "adept at dialect" and Walcott's idiosyncratic redefinition of the vernacular in poetry as tone rather than as dialect - apart from having Dantean overtones - are presented as being associated with the belief that poetry is a social reality and that language is a living alphabet bound to the "opened ground" of the world. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- This book can be ordered through your bookshop or directly from the publishers Please send me ..... copy/copies of FUMAGALLI: THE FLIGHT OF THE VERNACULAR Name . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Address . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Country . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mode of payment: ¨Cheque enclosed ¨Please Bill ¨Visa Card / ¨Master Card / ¨American Express Card nr.: ............................................. Exp. Date: .............................. Please note that the exchange rate is subject to fluctuations Editions Rodopi B.V. USA/Canada: One Rockefeller Plaza, Ste. 1420, New York, NY 10020 Tel. (212) 265-6360, Fax (212)-265-6402 (USA only) 1-800-225-3998 All Other Countries: Tijnmuiden 7, 1046 AK Amsterdam, The Netherlands Tel. ++ 31 (0)20 611 48 21, Fax ++ 31 (0)20 447 29 79 Orders-queries at rodopi.nl www.rodopi.nl Suzanne Roberts Rodopi Tijnmuiden 7 1046 AK Amsterdam The Netherlands www.rodopi.nl Tel: 31 (0) 20 611 48 21 Fax. 31 (0) 20 447 29 79 From lisa.heitman at LIST-UNIVERSE.COM Thu Sep 20 13:03:42 2001 From: lisa.heitman at LIST-UNIVERSE.COM (Lisa Marie Heitman) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:03:42 -0500 Subject: remove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 01:20 PM 9/19/2001 -0400, you wrote: > I have a few minutes. Here's a brief roundup from the New York Herald > Tribune. I must stress that some items are "better" than others--please > use extreme caution. > The ADS web page wasn't available today when I checked it. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >ONLY IN NEW YORK CITY (continued) > > Cindy Adams, gossip columnist of the New York Post, tried to register > "Only in New York." > "Only in New York City," by Richard B, Gehman, is in THIS WEEK, NYHT, > 23 January 1949, pg. 10. > This is earlier than the popular song "Only in America." > >-------------------------------------------------------- >WILLIE HOWARD & "COMES THE REVOLUTION" > > The NYHT, 13 January 1949, obituary for Willie Howard reveals that he > was a dialect comedian who possibly put several slang phrases into > circulation. I'll check his file when the Performing Arts Library reopens. > From col. 3: > > For each of his classic sketches--"The Quartet," "Mexican Presidents," > "I Can Get It for You Wholesale," "After the Opera" or "French > Lessons"--he had a different approach. His famous "Rewolt" routine > ("Comes the ravalution, you'll eat strawberries and like it!") furnished > a favorite gag for the depression years. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >SIGNS ON WALLS > > From THIS WEEK, 2 January 1949, pg. 8, col. 1: > >CORN: Signs on walls are as old as the hills >(Above this photo caption are:--ed.} > >YOU HAVE TRIED THE REST, >NOW TRY THE BEST. > >IF WE PLEASE YOU >TELL YOUR FRIENDS. >IF NOT TELL US. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >EARTH-BROWN > > From the NYHT, 29 December 1948, pg. 12, col. 5: > >_"Earth-Brown"_ >_Is New Color in_ >_Latest Carpets_ > >-------------------------------------------------------- >REPUBLOCRAT WHING-DING > > The cartoon appeared in the Detroit Free Press. From the NYHT, > section II, pg. 7, col. 3: > >That Republocrat Whing-Ding > >-------------------------------------------------------- >PEACE OFFENSIVE > > Compare with "charm offensive." One of many cartoon captions is the > NYHT, 24 January 1949, pg. 18, cols. 5-7: "That's What Some People Call > a 'Peace Offensive.'" > >-------------------------------------------------------- >QUICKIE VACATION > > I used to hear this a lot. It was the line in the very frequent TWA > ads, and one is in the NYHT, 13 January 1949, pg. 20, col. 2: > >GET A NEW LEASE >ON LIVING...WITH A > >_Quickie Vacation_ > >IN CALIFORNIA OR THE SOUTHWEST >only hours away, by TWA From drew.danielson at CMU.EDU Thu Sep 20 13:25:57 2001 From: drew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:25:57 -0400 Subject: Origins of 'all git-out' Message-ID: A quick check of the ADS-L archives didn't reveal anything, so I am asking at large: any ideas on the etymology of the term 'all git-out' as an intensifying comparative as in, "It's as cold as all git-out"? Thanks, Drew -- _______________________________________________________________________ Andrew Danielson Admin for Profs. Fedder, Gabriel Carnegie Mellon University Krogh, & Rajkumar Electrical & Computer +1 412 268-2188 Voice Engineering Department +1 412 268-3890 Fax 5000 Forbes Ave. http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~dmunk Pittsburgh, PA 15213 drew.danielson at cmu.edu _______________________________________________________________________ Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day. -- Thomas Jefferson We like all kinds of music/But I like American music best -- Gordon Gano From pulliam at IIT.EDU Thu Sep 20 14:05:36 2001 From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:05:36 -0500 Subject: cabbie-joint Message-ID: It's probably just new to me, but my Indian students introduced this term to me last night in class--it refers to an otherwise little-known restaurant frequented and publicized by cab drivers. -- - Greg Pulliam Department of Humanities Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Sep 20 02:44:13 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:44:13 +0800 Subject: Cioppino (a San Francisco dish) In-Reply-To: <7a.1b0375e8.28dadea7@aol.com> Message-ID: At 1:54 AM -0400 9/20/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > DARE has 1954. > From John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK: > >_cioppino._ A fish stew cooked with tomatoes, wine, and spices, and >associated at least since the 1930s with San Francisco, where it is >still a specialty in many restaurants (1935). The word is Italian, >from a Genoese dialect, _ciuppin_, for a fish stew, This I can believe (although it leaves open where "ciuppin" derives from) > This cioppino, pronounced "cho-PEEN-o," is a bouillabaisse of >sorts, a kissing cousin of the bouillabaisse (Col. 3--ed.) of >Mediterranean cities, but this a California creation found nowhere >else. Don Sweeney, Jr., and Gene McAteer, the Erin lads who operate >Tarantino's, told me the name is a corruption of the Italian word >cuoco, which means "cook." A fisherman's concoction made first by >the Genoese who man the small fishing boats which chug in and out of >the harbor. This I can't. Not that there's any reason to doubt the word of two lads of Erin on the sources of the name for an Italian fish soup, of course. It is indeed a wonderful soup/dish, whatever its etymology. And almost as messy to eat as it is delicious. But I think, following the Shakey-Preston protocol, that I promise not to try making cioppino if Sweeney and McAteer promise not to derive it. larry From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Sep 20 15:03:04 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:03:04 -0400 Subject: Cioppino (a San Francisco dish) In-Reply-To: <7a.1b0375e8.28dadea7@aol.com> Message-ID: FWIW, I add my name to those who find Barry Popik's posts to be a most welcome contribution to the grand conversation on ADS-L, but I don't know if I can forgive him for this morning's tantalizing description of cioppino when all there is of seafood in my cupboard is a can of tongol tuna! A. Murie From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Sep 20 15:13:28 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:13:28 -0400 Subject: accents & prescriptivism Message-ID: Laurence Horn writes, regarding the druggist who dispensed Opium Pills by mistake for Opening Pills: "No wonder they switched to written prescriptions (albeit famously in illegible form)", and Douglas Wilson replies: "I'm not sure prescriptions were required in 1830, even for narcotics." Opium was sold over the counter. I have a story about a man who went into a druggist, bought a couple of opium pills, and popped them into his mouth. The druggist supposed that he was trying to commit suicide and called for help, but the man explained that it was just his morning eye-opener. The other recreational drug used in the 1820s -- other than alcohol, of course -- was nitrous oxide. A woman wrote to one of the papers that her young daughter had been buying nitrous oxide in a bladder and sucking it out through a straw, so that she and her friends ran about the back yard like witches. The editor sternly remarked that perhaps druggists should be more careful about whom they sold the stuff to. Nitrous oxide was also administered as part of stage shows. Members of the audiences would volunteer to take it, and the rest would be amused by their bizarre behavior while under the influence. A report described it as sweet in taste, and noted that those who have once tried it want to use it again. Its medicinal use wasn't discovered for about 20 years -- the 1840s, I think. The good old days. The anecdotes above are from memory. If anyone has any need for the exact citations, let me know and I will dig them out. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From lynnhatt at UIC.EDU Thu Sep 20 15:20:25 2001 From: lynnhatt at UIC.EDU (Lynn C. Hattendorf Westney) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:20:25 -0500 Subject: William McCoy, "King of Rum Runners" (the real McCoy?) Message-ID: I'd always heard that came from an early boxer. Looked up and found "Kid" McCoy; welterweight Champ. 1896 See http://www.ibhof.com/mccoy.htm It is also believed that the term, "The Real McCoy" evolved into the usage of the English language because of him. To gain a psychological advantage over his opponents, McCoy feined illness before several bouts or he would spread the word to the media that he neglected training. On fight night, much to the surprise of the press and his opponents, McCoy was usually fit and ready to fight. Thus, reporters often asked, "Is this the real McCoy?" > > From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 31 December 1948, pg. 14, col. 4: > > _William McCoy_ > _Dies; "King of Rum Runners"_ > ----------------- > _Captain's Aresthusa Hauled_ > _Scotch to "Rum Row," Off_ > _L.I., During Prohibition_ > STUART, Fla., Dec. 30.--Captain William McCoy, seventy-one, who boasted that he was king of the rum runners during prohibition and coiner of the expression "the real McCoy," died today after a heart attacke aboard his boat, the Blue Lagoon of Coral Strand. > Captain McCoy came to Florida from Syracuse, N.Y. in 1898 and with his brother Ben operated coastwise freight and passenger boats until prohibition came. He then bought a fast schooner, the Arethusa, with a capacity for 6,000 cases of liquor, and began hauling scotch from Nassau to a rendezvous off the Long Island coast that became known as Rum Row. > The liquor he sold was always "the real McCoy" when it left his hands, he asserted, disclaiming responsibility for what might have happened to it after it reached the wholesalers and retailers in New York and New Jersey. > According to his own account, he made one voyage a month, with a week to load, a week each way from Nassau, and a week to sell, and averaged $60,000 to $75,000 a trip. > His buyers went out to Rum Row to speedboats that nearly always, when cornered, managed to out-run and out-maneuver the craft of revnue agents. Captain McCoy once explained why. > "Simple," he said, "very simple. The Coast Guard orders a fleet of faster boats. Specifications are printed in the papers. The rum mob takes the specifications to a Brooklyn man and says, 'Make us a crate that's ten miles faster than these.'" > Some of these boats, powered with three Liberty motors, attained a top speed of fifty miles an hour and one of them during a test run ran circles around the Ile de France, outward bound at full speed. > After repeal Captain McCoy, with little left of his rum-running wealth, turned to real estate. The famed Arethusa collided with an iceberg in the North Atlantic and sank. > In recent years he built a sixty-foot motor sailer in which he and his brother and their cronies made cruises to the Bahamas and West Indies. He also took up painting as a hobby after a friend gave him a box of paints, and his work was considered better than average. > Surviving, besides his brother, is a sister, Mrs. Violet Clark, of Deland, Fla. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Sep 20 15:31:20 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:31:20 -0400 Subject: One-Two Punch Message-ID: I have very extensive notes regarding the jargon of prizefighting from U. S. sources of the 1820s. Many represent considerable antedatings to the HDAS. (They are in the hands of Jesse Sheidlower, along with all of my notes on Americanisms.) I have had half a mind to submit them to American Speech or any other journal that will put them on paper and in libraries. In any event, here is "one-two" from a NYC newspaper, 1822. It appears as the signature to a letter to the editor purportedly written by two boxers. 1822: ONE TWO and FLOORER. The American, March 2, 1822, p. 2, col. 3 George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathon Green Date: Thursday, September 20, 2001 5:34 am Subject: Re: One-Two Punch > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > ONE-TWO PUNCH > > > > The RHHDAS has 1811, then 1902. Could the 1811 cite be > wrong?...Evenif it is, 1902 seems a little early for this fighter > to create and > popularize it. > > No. RHDAS (citing OEDS) is spot on. There is a large vocabulary of > early 19C > prize-fighting slang (e.g. _smeller_, nose; _claret_, blood, > _victuallingdepartment_ or _office_, stomach). The works of Pierce > Egan (sporting > journalist, editor in 1823 of the last revision of Grose's > Classical Dict. > of the Vulgar Tongue, and creator of the original 'Tom and Jerry') > are its > best repository. > > On 'one-two' my own files offer, inter alia: > > 1819 T. Moore _Tom Crib's Memorial to Congress_ 14: Which t'other > observing_put in_ his ONE-TWO / Between GEORGY'S left ribs, with a > knuckle so true > > 1823 'Jon Bee' _Slang_ 130: One-two (ring) - when both hands are > applied to > the antagonist quickly, he is said to have 'napt one-two' -three, > sometimes;a saying created at Bristol and brouight up to London > > 1848 _Flash Dictionary_ (in _Sinks of London Laid Open_) 118: One > two, two > blows succeeding each other > > > Jonathon Green > From douglas at NB.NET Thu Sep 20 16:57:42 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:57:42 -0400 Subject: Cioppino (a San Francisco dish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>The word is Italian, >>from a Genoese dialect, _ciuppin_, for a fish stew, > >This I can believe (although it leaves open where "ciuppin" derives from) Just a wild guess: a diminutive of something like "ciuppa", cognate with Italian "zuppa" = "soup". "Ciuppin" is very much like "zuppetta", isn't it? [Excerpt from the Web: <<... potete fare un bel "ciuppin", (che vorrebbe dire zuppetta)>>] -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 20 20:08:39 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:08:39 EDT Subject: TLC (tender love and care) Message-ID: I used to work for the Taxi and Limousine Commission, but that's not the TLC that I mean. OED has TLC (tender love and care) from 1960. Was it first used in cookery? This is from Clementine Paddleford's column (a story about Pepperidge Farm) in the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 14 June 1949, pg. 16, col. 8: It is Mrs. Rudkin's claim that every loaf of bread gets a shot of L. T. C. ("loving tender care"). OCLC WorldCat shows a song "T. L. C. (Tender love and care)" by Jimmie Rodgers, 1957. Gerald Cohen's inter-library loan staff might want to get busy again and find this book on Jewish cookery, available at the University of Denver and KSU only: WITH A TOUCH OF T.L.C. Beth Israel Sinai Sisterhood Racine, Wis. 1940-1949 (?) From Ittaob at AOL.COM Thu Sep 20 20:16:32 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:16:32 EDT Subject: TLC (tender love and care) Message-ID: Isn't TLC usually thought of as standing for "tender loving care"? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 20 22:33:21 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:33:21 EDT Subject: Peach Flambe Message-ID: TLC Yes, "tender loving care" is what I'm used to, but these early citations are different. Maybe I'll write to ask if Pepperidge Farm used "LTC" in its ads. -------------------------------------------------------- PEACH FLAMBE Also the plural, Peaches Flambe. Also, Strawberry/Strawberries Flambe. The OED doesn't help much with flaming food datings. I'll have to recheck my French cookbook sources. From Clementine Paddleford's restaurant review of the Newport (48 East Sixtieth St.), 9 July 1949, pg. 7, col. 8: FLAMING THE PEACH--Save room for dessert. One thing you must try now in the time of the peach is peaches flambee. Huge ripe specimens are poached in a peach liquid, then flamed with brandy. A minute now to let the flames dance. Then the spoon lifts the peach high above the hot sauce. A pause, that like a dancer's must be eloquently timed. As the flame gathers force the peach is brought to rest square in the middle of a plate of ice cream. More of the syrup spooned over. The whole show is put on right at your table. Those little fingers of blue flame licking the gold of the peach: it holds one spellbound. PHOTO CAPTION: Mrs. Donald Hardenbrook orders Flambee Peaches, dessert of the month, at the Newport Restaurant. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 20 23:27:26 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:27:26 EDT Subject: Georgia Pecan Pie (1924?) Message-ID: From THIS WEEK magazine, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 17 July 1949, pg. 24, col. 2: HOW AMERICA EATS _Atlanta:_ _GEORGIA PECAN PIE_ by Clementine Paddleford _It's a dream, the way_ _Callie William makes_ _it. And our food editor_ _has found out the recipe_ FOUR states claim pecan pie for their own--Alabama, Tennessee, Mississippi and Georgia. I have eaten this incarnate richness in each of its homelands and my choice goes to the Georgia pie made by Callie Williams, who's made 100 to 150 pies daily for 25 years. Callie is a pecan-pie baker for the Magnolia Tea Room in Rich's Department Store in Atlanta, the biggest and the busiest store, they claim, in the Southeast. The store had been owned by one family for 82 years and for a quarter-century it had held to its corner at Alabama and Broad. Just as many years it has been serving luncheons to shoppers, and pecan pie in particular. Some 3,000 people a day eat at its tables and snack bars. Out of this number, at least 1,000 wrap themselves around a wedge of Callie's nut pie. _Rich Conglomeration_ THIS pecan-pie formular has been polished and brought to perfection for a quarter of a century. The recipe reads like a poem; it eats like a dream. A rich conglomeration of eggs, of corn syrup, of nut halves encased in tender crust and baked to pigskin brown. Young brides-to-be (Col. 3--ed.) --who come to Rich's from other states, to order their trousseaus just as Mama did--have lunch at the store. They eat pecan pie and do as Mama suggests, visit the kitchen to pry the recipe out of Callie. Sometimes she breaks down and tells how she does it. More times she shuts her mouth tight and shakes her head "no." Callie had a record bake for last year--28,960 pecan pies were sliced fresh from the ovens. (...) (Pg. 25, col. 3--ed.) _Callie's Pecan Pie_ 3 whole eggs 2 tablespoons melted butter or margarine 2 tablespoons flour 1/4 teaspoon vanilla 1/8 teaspoon salt 1/2 cup sugar 1 /2 cups dark corn syrup 1 1/2 cups broken pecan halves 1 unbaked 8-inch pie shell Beat eggs; blend in melted butter, flour, vanilla, salt, sugar and syrup. Sprinkle nuts over bottom of unbaked pastry shell. Now gently pour over syrup (425 degrees F.) 10 minutes. Reduce heat to slow (325 degrees F.) and bake about 40 minutes. Yield: one 8-inch pie to serve six. Eat to the strum of banjos! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Sep 20 12:04:13 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:04:13 +0800 Subject: TLC In-Reply-To: <14f.14bd9da.28dbc8b1@aol.com> Message-ID: At 6:33 PM -0400 9/20/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >TLC > [= tender love and care] > Yes, "tender loving care" is what I'm used to, but these early >citations are different. > Maybe I'll write to ask if Pepperidge Farm used "LTC" in its ads. > It's nice to have yet another example to add to my collection, which currently includes: hand-in-glove 'intimate' (before c. 1800, hand and glove was standard) foot-in-mouth disease (usu. as self-conscious pun, but occasionally as naive reanalysis) neck-in-neck (July 2001, baseball context) various misheard/reanalyzed song lyrics, including But is her sweet expression Worth more than my {love an' affection/lovin' affection}? (Supremes "Stop! In the Name of Love") I like {smoke an' lightning/smokin' lightning} (Steppenwolf's "Born to be Wild") and also... beckon call (web sites, commercial companies) and of course spittin'/spit an'/spitten image, which is how come I'm collecting these. Pretty tricky, this neutralization-happy language we've got here. larry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 21 01:23:57 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:23:57 EDT Subject: Submarine Sandwich (Rehoboth Beach, Del.) Message-ID: See the ADS-L archives for my work on "submarine." From THIS WEEK magazine, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 7 August 1949, pg. 24, col. 2: HOW AMERICA EATS _Rehoboth Beach, Del._ _SANDWICH...GIANT-SIZE_ by Clementine Paddleford _The "double submarine"_ _is quite a mouthful._ _Here's how to build one_ IT'S a monster contraption, the double submarine that nosed into sight along the East Coast late in the war. The original spot of its sighting is a matter of contention, but nobody argues over its present home base. Biggest submarine-sandwich fleet in dry dock is built by Jack Twilley's stand-up-and-at-'em snack bar at Rehoboth Beach, Del., most proper summer-resort town. For off the beaten path of epicures is Twilley's little bar, its front opening on Rehoboth's main street. Four Sundays back, we stood there, notebook in one hand, pencil in the other, recording who came to buy "subs" and to get the details of "giant sandwich" construction. _Snack Fare_ LISTENING in, we learned that submarines never miss a beach picnic. They go out to summer suppers, to beer parties, off on boat trips. Women with home freezers buy "subs" in sets of a dozen to freeze, then defrost and serve when the crowd gathers. Another trick with these "Paul Bunyan" tidbits is to wrap tightly in wax paper, chill a few hours, slice crosswise with a sharp knife, eight cuts to a sandwich. Even (Col. 3--ed.) "sub-divisions" are four-bite affairs served as snack fare when the drinks are poured. Want to introduce the submarine to your town? Take a long, soft finger roll, the longer the better, nine inches the length. If you can't get the long rolls, whack off nine-inch cuts of French flute bread or use the long Italian hard rolls. _The Way To Do It_ SPLIT rolls, or bread, lengthwise, almost into halves, but not quite. Flatten like an open book and now to your building. Lay on the following ingredients, one thing on the other, exactly in this order: three thin slices of pressed ham, arranged overlapping; two thin slices provoloni cheese; four crisp leaves of lettuce; four half slices of tomato. Sprinkle with thyme, celery seed and salt; drizzle over olive oil. Add a medium-sized onion cut into thin rings; overlay with four one-half-inch-thick slices of dill pickled peppers--to set a fire in the mouth. Cut the sandwich through the center into two halves and quickly snap it together. Wrap in wax paper and into the refrigerator to chill until picnic time. Figure one to a person; on one submarine you can dine and dine well. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 21 02:11:49 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 22:11:49 EDT Subject: Hero (1949) Message-ID: This beats the later Clementine Paddleford article on the "hero sandwich" that's in the ADS-L archives. I think it's from 1951. From Clementine Paddleford's column in the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 11 August 1949, pg. 11, col. 8: MAIL-BAG--(...) A man without a name writes to tell us to go to the foot of the class regarding Rehoboth Beach's double submarine sandwich which we told how to make in last week's "This Week." "Shucks," writes our reader, "go down to Cherry and Catherine Streets and any little Italian grocery store there can make a sandwich bigger and I'll bet better than the one you reported. Ask for a 'Hero.'" We have. We know all about them. But double submarine is quite a different picnic. It's less Italian, in flavor it's modern America. See last Sunday's "This Week" for the full particulars. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Sep 21 02:32:16 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:32:16 -0500 Subject: George Thompson's 1820s prizefighting jargon Message-ID: On 9/20/01, George Thompson wrote: > >I have very extensive notes regarding the jargon of prizefighting from >U. S. sources of the 1820s. Many represent considerable antedatings to >the HDAS. (They are in the hands of Jesse Sheidlower, along with all >of my notes on Americanisms.) I have had half a mind to submit them to >American Speech or any other journal that will put them on paper and in libraries. ... If no other editors express an interest in publishing this material, please consider _Comments on Etymology_. ---Gerald Cohen (editor, _Comments on Etymology_) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Sep 21 02:34:16 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:34:16 -0500 Subject: Query: "on the may" (1913) Message-ID: Would anyone have any idea what "on the may" means in the quote below (newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_ April 22, 1913, p.16/2-3; title: "Tub and Del Are Leading"): 'The baseball popularity contest is growing hotter. It is going to get hotter and hotter. It will be the hottest thing on the may in a few more weeks. It can't get too hot for The Bulletin. The more votes that are polled for the various players of the Pacific Coast League the hotter it will be. Let the "heat" flow. ...' ---Gerald Cohen From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Sep 21 05:30:48 2001 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 22:30:48 -0700 Subject: More Frenchified? Message-ID: On the phone to the reservation person for the Westin Hotel chain, I asked if she knew how one got from the airport to the hotel in question. She said, several times and very clearly, that I'd have to talk to the "conseeAIR." Could this be because this sounds more French than concierge? It's a new one for me. Rima From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Fri Sep 21 08:07:47 2001 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 03:07:47 -0500 Subject: YOH Message-ID: Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Michael Newman > > e.g. That Falwell's such a fool, yo. > > > > In that usage the 'yo' is downstressed. > > That might be the usage I've been hearing. It has that downstress > which is probably why I think I hear a residual "l" sound from > y'all. I'll try to listen more carefully. > > Benjamin Barrett While you're listening, think of another possibility: maybe the final element could be approximated as "y'o" -- with some approximation of a glottal stop in the middle, or at least two separate vowels rather than a diphthong. I think that's what I've heard more than once. The tone pattern of "such a fool y'o" (with "such a" reduced to CVC followed by an echo vowel of comparatively short length) comes out 2-3-2_falling. That marks "fool" as a specially stressed element, which makes sense in this context. My suggested reading is that this "yo" is not at all the same as the Philly yo or the Army way of answering roll call. If that possible glottal stop is more than my imagination, I'd suggest that this phrase-final yo represents a second shortening of "y'know": "That Falwell's such a fool, y'know." My bet about most uses of standalone "yo" as a response (as in, e.g., "Hey, George, you've got a phone call" "Yo") is that it does come out of the Army. You could properly translate the short "yo" with this long phrase: "I acknowledge the fact that you want ME, in particular, to pay attention, and I signal that I'm doing so." -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! IN MEMORIAM: Peggy Salovesh 25 January 1932 -- 3 March 2001 From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Fri Sep 21 08:39:22 2001 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 03:39:22 -0500 Subject: Bapopik Message-ID: I feel inundated by the good words about Barry that have come from the real heavyweights on this list. What could be left to say after the Word has come down from OED, Merriam Webster, Barnhart, and so many points east and west? I'm just a retired semi-pro in dialect studies. I won't defend Barry or his contributions to ADS-L because they need no defense. All I want to do is take this opportunity to say "Thank you, Barry. I stand in awe of your diligence, your relevance, and the high quality of your contributions to this list. Your messages brighten my day." Sure, Barry goes a bit crotchety at times. Who doesn't? And yes, there are days when I think I'll scream the next time he sends in a long list of names of cocktails as served in Tel Aviv's Bar Mitzvah or some Saskatoon Saloon. That's why I have a delete button on my keyboard. As for me, I wouldn't dream of erasing anything Barry sends to ADS-L until I've read every single word of it. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! IN MEMORIAM: Peggy Salovesh 25 January 1932 -- 3 March 2001 From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Sep 21 10:38:27 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 06:38:27 -0400 Subject: Barry, help! Message-ID: On another list the subject of the earliest example of oyster, mountain oyster, and rocky mountain oyster was posted. OED was reported with 1890 (acutally Cent. Dict. is the source in the late 20th century OED supplement by Robert W. Burchfield). I've poked about a little and found the following for mountain oyster: And, if they choosed, to partake of the dainty of cruelty caught and primitively cooked "mountain oysters"--always found in great abundance where many calves are herded. Baxley, H. Willis, _What I saw on the west coast of South and North America, and at the Hawaiian Islands_. New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1865, p 442 It would not be unreasonable to expect an earlier dating, would it, Barry? Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 21 13:03:24 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:03:24 -0400 Subject: Barry, help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, I assume this list also queried the dating of the variants "prairie oyster" and "Kentucky oyster"? dInIs >On another list the subject of the earliest example of oyster, mountain >oyster, and rocky mountain oyster was posted. OED was reported with >1890 (acutally Cent. Dict. is the source in the late 20th century OED >supplement by Robert W. Burchfield). I've poked about a little and >found the following for mountain oyster: > >And, if they choosed, to partake of the dainty of cruelty caught and >primitively cooked "mountain oysters"--always found in great abundance >where many calves are herded. Baxley, H. Willis, _What I saw on the >west coast of South and North America, and at the Hawaiian Islands_. >New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1865, p 442 > >It would not be unreasonable to expect an earlier dating, would it, >Barry? > >Regards, >David > >barnhart at highlands.com -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 21 00:57:38 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:57:38 +0800 Subject: More Frenchified? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:30 PM -0700 9/20/01, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >On the phone to the reservation person for the Westin Hotel chain, I >asked if she knew how one got from the airport to the hotel in >question. She said, several times and very clearly, that I'd have to >talk to the "conseeAIR." > >Could this be because this sounds more French than concierge? It's a >new one for me. > I'm sure it is. The hyper-Frenchification I've noticed most often is "COO D'GRAH" for coup de grace. The rule seems to be "don't pronounce the last consonant", period. At least in your case the reservation person might have had extra motivation for avoiding the final -rzh cluster, but there's certainly no similar excuse for avoiding [gras]. larry From mnewman at QC.EDU Fri Sep 21 13:28:33 2001 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:28:33 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: > >While you're listening, think of another possibility: maybe the final >element could be approximated as "y'o" -- with some approximation of a >glottal stop in the middle, or at least two separate vowels rather than a >diphthong. I think that's what I've heard more than once. The tone pattern >of "such a fool y'o" (with "such a" reduced to CVC followed by an echo >vowel of comparatively short length) comes out 2-3-2_falling. That marks >"fool" as a specially stressed element, which makes sense in this >context. I'll listen to it, and I can even use a CSL to rule it in or out, but I doubt that there is a glottal stop. The speakers *believe* it is the same yo. I can't show the intonation patterns here because I'd have to get my tapes and relisten, but for what it's worth, here are some real examples of various uses of 'yo' as spoken by three Queens, NY teens. What's striking is the versatility. The one's in clause final position are indeed downstressed, I'm pretty sure. Names are pseudonyms, and transcriptions are by the person referred to as "Kareem" in the text. I offer no interpretations because I haven't been focusing on the issue yet. I welcome anyone else's. Examples from Darryl (mixed Jamaican-Am/Af. Am) high school junior good student/ rap artist -think in, in um, yo any type of music you listen to, anything you listen to you have that certain degree of slang, -People rhyme, like yo, you met Malik? -it's like when you in a situation, you can see it for all the (?) but if you look from the outside you could see the situation, whereas I speak it so I can't really say yo. -Havin a conversation with Karim is like something totally piss. Yo he'll make you think so much, it's like ridiculous the things he comes up wit. It's like real creative, but kinda bugged out, yo. - I mean, he says, why do 7-11's have locks, if they're open 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Like he says things like that, like yo, it's true, but yo, who thinks about stuff like that. Examples from Rashid (Af. Am gang member)-sorry about the violent descriptions. -I mean if me and you was runnin from the police and there was a song in the background and I heard the song all night long, two years later when we hear dat song we gonna go yo, remember that night. -Yeah breakin, I am sayin, breakin is cool yo. If you know how to do it it's cool me personally, know what I mean? that's not my, that's not my, I don't flip for break dancing, -so me n him was on my footfall in front of the Chinese restaurant, and he was tellin, he was like yo, I just picked a package up, know what I mean? -I waited like twenty minutes then I went back outside, went back outside I see this thing, I'm like "yo, son, remember that gun shot?" he was like "yeah." "Yo, what happen?" He was like "Yo man, po lice got bagged." I wuz like "word" I was like "what happened? " Examples from Jorge (mixed Dominican/Ecuadorian hs. junior honor roll student/rap artist) -then Kareem was like yo ya'll should make a track...and I was like aight ...we gone make a track dissin' this nigga. -I told him yo were battlin' He's like aight come on ..I told him about why I wanna battle him. He's like "yo I ain't tryin to steal your image or your flow." I'm like what ever..... -Andre just got mad sothen for like the whole year, even up yo like the beginin of this year, I aint speak to him. -He speaks Spanish. Hilarrius, he came up to me just a week ago. He was like, "yo, you wanna do a song in Spanish?" I was like, "I got no problem." I could work with him. -- Michael Newman Assistant Professor of Applied Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 21 13:39:08 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:39:08 EDT Subject: Mexican Strawberry; La Mordida Message-ID: The great Mike S. (from Chicagah) is back on the list! For Mike and the OED, here are two Mexican "M" entries. I'll try to give you a Clementine Paddleford "Margarita" and "Chicago Pizza" soon. If he hadn't been following: the "hot dog" war is over and the "Tad Dorgan" myth is officially dead. However, the Chicago 1893 World's Fair "Windy City" myth forever continues. I told the Chicago Tribune in June, then the Columbus Dispatch in July, then the Organization of News Ombudsmen, then the Chicago Tribune got it wrong again in August, then I went ballistic... -------------------------------------------------------- MEXICAN STRAWBERRY OED can receive this help from DARE: "See _strawberry cactus_." There is one hit on the MOA database from the 1850s. From HOW AMERICA EATS, "ALBUQUERQUE: The Pink Bean," THIS WEEK, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 6 March 1949, pg. 48, col. 2: SOMETHING to behold is the southwesterner's appetite for the pinto. That's the bean called pink, called frijole, called the Mexican strawberry. -------------------------------------------------------- LA MORDIDA From THIS WEEK, NYHT, 12 December 1948, pg. 34, col. 1: _MEXICO'S WAR ON THE "BITE"_ _That's the Mexicans' pet name for the tradition_ _of bribery--but it no longer signifies affection._ _Now press and government are swinging into action_ (...) That's the bribe--or, as the Mexicans call it, _la mordida_. Springing from the perpetual pinch of poverty, the _mordida_ has been an age-old custom so generally accepted and so widely practiced that it long ago gained the orthodoxy of an institution. From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Sep 21 13:43:45 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:43:45 -0400 Subject: Mexican Strawberry; La Mordida In-Reply-To: <64.1381fe11.28dc9cfd@aol.com>; from Bapopik@AOL.COM on Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 09:39:08AM -0400 Message-ID: > -------------------------------------------------------- > LA MORDIDA > > From THIS WEEK, NYHT, 12 December 1948, pg. 34, col. 1: > > _MEXICO'S WAR ON THE "BITE"_ > _That's the Mexicans' pet name for the tradition_ > _of bribery--but it no longer signifies affection._ > _Now press and government are swinging into action_ > (...) > That's the bribe--or, as the Mexicans call it, _la mordida_. Springing from the perpetual pinch of poverty, the _mordida_ has been an age-old custom so generally accepted and so widely practiced that it long ago gained the orthodoxy of an institution. 1940 _Life_ 2 Dec. 102 In Mexico, and throughout Latin America, it is next to impossible to make headway with petty officials without constant applications of the _mordida,_ which literally translated means 'the bite', or bribe. Jesse Sheidlower OED From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 21 13:57:55 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:57:55 -0400 Subject: More Frenchified? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, Give an ear to classical music stations and you will hear Frenchification in languages other than French, in this case final-stress placement. Since it is my father-tongue, I suppose I am oversensitive to this in Hungarian (which always places stress on the first syllable) when such oddities as barTOK and koDALY (the latter even with, amazingly, more or less correct realization of the final -daly syllable) surface. dInIs >At 10:30 PM -0700 9/20/01, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >>On the phone to the reservation person for the Westin Hotel chain, I >>asked if she knew how one got from the airport to the hotel in >>question. She said, several times and very clearly, that I'd have to >>talk to the "conseeAIR." >> >>Could this be because this sounds more French than concierge? It's a >>new one for me. >> >I'm sure it is. The hyper-Frenchification I've noticed most often is >"COO D'GRAH" for coup de grace. The rule seems to be "don't >pronounce the last consonant", period. At least in your case the >reservation person might have had extra motivation for avoiding the >final -rzh cluster, but there's certainly no similar excuse for >avoiding [gras]. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 21 02:03:09 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:03:09 +0800 Subject: More Frenchified? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:57 AM -0400 9/21/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >larry, > >Give an ear to classical music stations and you will hear >Frenchification in languages other than French, in this case >final-stress placement. Since it is my father-tongue, I suppose I am >oversensitive to this in Hungarian (which always places stress on the >first syllable) when such oddities as barTOK and koDALY (the latter >even with, amazingly, more or less correct realization of the final >-daly syllable) surface. > >dInIs > And presumably not entirely explainable by the announcer having spent his/her formative years listening to classical music broadcasts in France or Quebec. Well, French is the language of culture, after all. Then of course there's the hyperforeignist [zh] for [j] (Taj Mahal, the Raj, Beijing) we've discussed on the list, again (we assume) influenced by the same redundancy rule, [+ exotic]==>[+ French]. larry From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 21 14:31:04 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:31:04 -0400 Subject: More Frenchified? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, These are very fruitful grounds for research, but, unfortunately, we usually cite only isolated examples across a wide range of phenomena. For a notable exception to that complaint see Charles Boberg's excellent treatment of "foreign a" in English (British and US) in the Journal of Language and Social Psychology (Vol. 18, No. 1, March 1999). Even that excellent article leaves some interesting unanswered questions - /paekIstaen, /pakIstan/, and /pakIstaen/ but (so far as I can hear) no /paekIstan/. Odd that pronunciation of "loan words" in English usually gets only a prescriptivist glance when, for example, the study of loan-word phonology in, say, Japanese is a major linguistic subindustry. Of course, lexicographers are on the lookout for the emerging (or emerged) "speech community" standards for such items, but that does not satisfy the linguistic curiosity about the phonological processes at work. dInIs >At 9:57 AM -0400 9/21/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>larry, >> >>Give an ear to classical music stations and you will hear >>Frenchification in languages other than French, in this case >>final-stress placement. Since it is my father-tongue, I suppose I am >>oversensitive to this in Hungarian (which always places stress on the >>first syllable) when such oddities as barTOK and koDALY (the latter >>even with, amazingly, more or less correct realization of the final >>-daly syllable) surface. >> >>dInIs >> >And presumably not entirely explainable by the announcer having spent >his/her formative years listening to classical music broadcasts in >France or Quebec. Well, French is the language of culture, after >all. Then of course there's the hyperforeignist [zh] for [j] (Taj >Mahal, the Raj, Beijing) we've discussed on the list, again (we >assume) influenced by the same redundancy rule, >[+ exotic]==>[+ French]. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From gbarrett at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Sep 21 15:13:08 2001 From: gbarrett at COLUMBIA.EDU (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:13:08 -0400 Subject: High-Rise Terminals or Uptalk Message-ID: A Guardian article covering uptalk around the world. Not very academic, but interesting. http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,555379,00.html "Strictly speaking, uptalk is not brand new. But it is travelling fast and may be reaching critical mass. Even Danny DeVito's son does it, as he told a conference on teenagers hosted by Bill'n'Hill at the White House last year: "He uptalks, my son. You know what uptalk is? You know, like, where they don't end a sentence and they keep talking like this... and if you take the arteries and capillaries and veins in your body and you stretch them all around you can go four times around the world." Then he went on to say: "But uptalk is really interesting. You've probably experienced it, like all the doctors and people who have studied it. I think it comes from kids who want to be heard, and they're afraid that if they stop, adults are going to cut them off." -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Sep 21 15:26:23 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:26:23 -0400 Subject: Barry, help! Message-ID: On the variations for _mountain oyster_, I found in the DA _prairie oyster_ (only as a variant of _prairie cocktail_, which is not a testicle). _Kentucky oyster_ in DA is equated with chittlings, not testicles. OEDs attests the equivalence of _mountain oyster_ and _prairie oyster_ in a second def. MOA shows not examples of either _prairie oyster_ or _Kentucky oyster_. Regards, David preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU,Net writes: >I assume this list also queried the dating of the variants "prairie >oyster" and "Kentucky oyster"? >dInIs >>On another list the subject of the earliest example of oyster, mountain >>oyster, and rocky mountain oyster was posted. OED was reported with >>1890 (acutally Cent. Dict. is the source in the late 20th century OED >>supplement by Robert W. Burchfield). I've poked about a little and >>found the following for mountain oyster: >> >>And, if they choosed, to partake of the dainty of cruelty caught and >>primitively cooked "mountain oysters"--always found in great abundance >>where many calves are herded. Baxley, H. Willis, _What I saw on the >>west coast of South and North America, and at the Hawaiian Islands_. >>New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1865, p 442 >> From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 21 15:51:47 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:51:47 -0400 Subject: Barry, help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Us Louisvillians who sat around munching on pickled Kentucky oysters in bars in the 50s and 60s can tell a chitterling from a testicle. dInIs >On the variations for _mountain oyster_, I found in the DA _prairie >oyster_ (only as a variant of _prairie cocktail_, which is not a >testicle). _Kentucky oyster_ in DA is equated with chittlings, not >testicles. OEDs attests the equivalence of _mountain oyster_ and >_prairie oyster_ in a second def. MOA shows not examples of either >_prairie oyster_ or _Kentucky oyster_. > >Regards, >David > > >preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU,Net writes: >>I assume this list also queried the dating of the variants "prairie >>oyster" and "Kentucky oyster"? > >>dInIs > >>>On another list the subject of the earliest example of oyster, mountain >>>oyster, and rocky mountain oyster was posted. OED was reported with >>>1890 (acutally Cent. Dict. is the source in the late 20th century OED >>>supplement by Robert W. Burchfield). I've poked about a little and >>>found the following for mountain oyster: >>> >>>And, if they choosed, to partake of the dainty of cruelty caught and >>>primitively cooked "mountain oysters"--always found in great abundance >>>where many calves are herded. Baxley, H. Willis, _What I saw on the >>>west coast of South and North America, and at the Hawaiian Islands_. >>>New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1865, p 442 >>> -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From lisawitt at GTE.NET Fri Sep 21 16:40:41 2001 From: lisawitt at GTE.NET (Lisa Wittenberg Hillyard) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:40:41 -0800 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member Message-ID: Nancy Elliott wrote: > i'd say his rhoticity is pretty much a done deal, with caucasian parents > from detroit and kansas city and being raised in orygun... the burning > question for me is, will he have the pin-pen merger? > > nancy, typing with one hand while holding a baby with the other > It appears that nancy has gone native since she does not refer to the state as ore-gone. Which is a true marker in this neck of the woods. writing east of portland in a little town called Boring. -lisa From douglas at NB.NET Fri Sep 21 16:03:57 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:03:57 -0400 Subject: ["yo" examples] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I offer no interpretations because I haven't been focusing on the issue >yet. I welcome anyone else's. Here are my offhand ones. >-think in, in um, yo any type of music ... = thinkin' in, um -- hey -- any type of music ... [?] >... like yo, you met Malik? = ... like, 'Hey, you met Malik?' >... whereas I speak it so I can't really say yo. Looks as though it might be M. Salovesh's "y'know". [I note "whereas": I use it like this but some find it peculiar (pretentious?).] >-Havin a conversation with Karim is like something totally piss. Yo >he'll make you think so much, it's like ridiculous the things he >comes up wit. It's like real creative, but kinda bugged out, yo. One = "hey", one again like "y'know" (likely). >... like yo, it's true, but yo, who thinks about stuff like that. = "... like yeah [OR hey], it's true, but, hey, who thinks about stuff like that?" >... we gonna go yo, remember that night. = "... we gonna go, 'Hey, remember that night.' >... I am sayin, breakin is cool yo. Looks like "y'know" again. >... he was like yo, I just picked a package up, know what I mean? "Yo" = "Hey" again. Can the "know what I mean?" be freely replaced with that final "yo"? >-I waited like twenty minutes then I went back outside, went back >outside I see this thing, I'm like "yo, son, remember that gun shot?" >he was like "yeah." "Yo, what happen?" He was like "Yo man, po lice >got bagged." I wuz like "word" I was like "what happened? " "Yo" = "Hey". >-then Kareem was like yo ya'll should make a track... "Yo" = "Hey". >-I told him yo were battlin' ...He's like "yo I ain't tryin to steal >your image or your flow." ... First "yo" = "you" or "y'all", second = "Hey". >-Andre just got mad sothen for like the whole year, even up yo like >the beginin of this year, I aint speak to him. Don't know. >... "yo, you wanna do a song in Spanish?"... "Yo" = "Hey" again. All the "yo = hey" examples would have looked natural to me with "hey" decades ago, I think. I picture the OED's first example of "yo" (1420) as similar to this [but maybe I'm misconstruing it]: "3aw thar suche him no mare" = "Yo there, seek him no more" = "Hey there, seek him no more". The terminal "yo" might be "y'know". Perhaps it could be a vocative "y'all", at least in some cases. With different stress/intonation perhaps, it could be "hey" again, or the stereotypical Canadian "eh". As a likely irrelevancy, I note that Japanese has an 'emphatic' (I think maybe sort of 'masculine-sounding') terminal particle "yo": is this used in the recent TV 'Japanimation' by any chance? -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 21 04:21:37 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:21:37 +0800 Subject: Barry, help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:26 AM -0400 9/21/01, Barnhart wrote: >On the variations for _mountain oyster_, I found in the DA _prairie >oyster_ (only as a variant of _prairie cocktail_, which is not a >testicle). _Kentucky oyster_ in DA is equated with chittlings, not >testicles. OEDs attests the equivalence of _mountain oyster_ and >_prairie oyster_ in a second def. MOA shows not examples of either >_prairie oyster_ or _Kentucky oyster_. > >Regards, >David > More graphically, the AHD4 (like other sources, including the OED, as you mention) provides these two referents for "prairie oyster", quite distinct from each other except presumably in their texture. You could even eat one and wash it down with the other. Or not. 1. Slang A drink made from a whole raw egg yolk, Worcestershire sauce, hot sauce, salt, and pepper that is taken as a palliative for a hangover or as a cure for hiccups. 2. Chiefly Western U.S. The testis of a calf, cooked and served as food. From douglas at NB.NET Fri Sep 21 16:35:06 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:35:06 -0400 Subject: Query: "on the may" (1913) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Would anyone have any idea what "on the may" means in the quote below >(newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_ April 22, 1913, p.16/2-3; title: >"Tub and Del Are Leading"): > > 'The baseball popularity contest is growing hotter. It is going >to get hotter and hotter. It will be the hottest thing on the may in >a few more weeks. It can't get too hot for The Bulletin. The more >votes that are polled for the various players of the Pacific Coast >League the hotter it will be. Let the "heat" flow. ...' Only speculation. The only "the may" which comes to mind is "the May festival", as in "Queen of the May". The date (22 April) is consistent with "on the may" = "in May". May Day is generally 1 May, isn't it (not "a few weeks" after 22 April)? Possibly the expression is elliptical (or even a typographical error) for "on the May [calendar/agenda/schedule/whatever]". -- Doug Wilson From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Sep 21 16:39:18 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:39:18 -0400 Subject: FW: Query: "on the may" (1913) Message-ID: Adding to what Doug W says below, I thought that, in West Coast cities who back then had only minor league teams locally, May was likely the time that the minors got started, or at least got into gear. A check of the old schedules might show this (or not). But again, this would call for a capital M May. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Douglas G. Wilson Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 12:35 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Query: "on the may" (1913) > Would anyone have any idea what "on the may" means in the quote below >(newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_ April 22, 1913, p.16/2-3; title: >"Tub and Del Are Leading"): > > 'The baseball popularity contest is growing hotter. It is going >to get hotter and hotter. It will be the hottest thing on the may in >a few more weeks. It can't get too hot for The Bulletin. The more >votes that are polled for the various players of the Pacific Coast >League the hotter it will be. Let the "heat" flow. ...' Only speculation. The only "the may" which comes to mind is "the May festival", as in "Queen of the May". The date (22 April) is consistent with "on the may" = "in May". May Day is generally 1 May, isn't it (not "a few weeks" after 22 April)? Possibly the expression is elliptical (or even a typographical error) for "on the May [calendar/agenda/schedule/whatever]". -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 21 20:08:02 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:08:02 EDT Subject: New York: Capital du monde (1949) Message-ID: NEW YORK: CAPITAL OF THE WORLD (continued) "New York: Capitale du monde" is the title of a piece in THIS WEEK magazine, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 18 September 1949, pg. 6. From Page 7: SINCE London and Paris joined Rome and Athens in the shadows of dimmed glory, the Capital of the World has crossed the Atlantic and settled in New York. (Current Mayor Rudy Giuliani re-popularized the phrase, which has not been used much the past 10 days--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- UNACCUSTOMED AS I AM TO PUBLIC SPEAKING... George Thompson was interested in this phrase. "Unaccustomed As I Am..." is the title above a priceless baby photo in the same THIS WEEK, NYHT, 18 September 1949, pg. 16. -------------------------------------------------------- TUNNEL VISION OED has 1949. From THIS WEEK, NYHT, 11 September 1949, pg. 13: _THREE MILLION "BLIND" DRIVERS_ _The startling story of "tunnel vision" and_ _other treacherous eye defects that make too_ _many motorists potential killers. Few know if_ _they're affected, much less what to do about it_ (JSTOR should have something on this...Attached is from the Chicago Public Library. I tried again.--ed.) -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Subject: Chicago Public Library Information Request Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:56:28 +0100 Size: 1196 URL: From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Sep 22 00:08:35 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:08:35 -0500 Subject: "on the may"--typo for "on the way" Message-ID: My thanx to Frank Abate and Douglas Wilson for their attempts to unravel "on the may." Since this item doesn't ring a bell with the ads-l list, and since there is no repeat of the item in all the other 1913 baseball articles I've read, I think I see the solution: "may" here is a typo for "way." The baseball popularity contest will be the hottest thing coming down the pike ("on the way") in a few weeks. >Would anyone have any idea what "on the may" means in the quote below >(newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_ April 22, 1913, p.16/2-3; title: >"Tub and Del Are Leading"): > > 'The baseball popularity contest is growing hotter. It is going >to get hotter and hotter. It will be the hottest thing on the may in >a few more weeks. It can't get too hot for The Bulletin. The more >votes that are polled for the various players of the Pacific Coast >League the hotter it will be. Let the "heat" flow. ...' ---Gerald Cohen From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sat Sep 22 03:25:22 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:25:22 -0700 Subject: More Frenchified? Message-ID: Rima: > On the phone to the reservation person for the Westin Hotel chain, I > asked if she knew how one got from the airport to the hotel in > question. She said, several times and very clearly, that I'd have to > talk to the "conseeAIR." > > Could this be because this sounds more French than concierge? It's a > new one for me. If it were real French, wouldn't it be "conseeairzhe"? Anne Gilbert From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 22 03:32:08 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 23:32:08 EDT Subject: Shop Talk of the Texas Bond Man (1960) Message-ID: SHOP TALK OF THE TEXAS BOND MAN A Glossary of Words and Phrases from the Professional Vocabulary of Those Who Deal in Municipal Bonds MUNICIPAL ADVISORY COUNCIL OF TEXAS 1960 Jesse Sheidlower was interested in the "muni," so Gerald Cohen kindly inter-library loaned and copied this 15-page book. It doesn't have "muni," it doesn't have much slang, and it's not of much interest. Perhaps "Take-Or-Pay" or "Turkey" can be used. The terms are: Pg. 1: Account Letter; Account Manager; Advertised Sale; Assessed Valuation; Assumed Bonds; Attorney General. Pg. 2: Authority; Average Life; Balloon Maturity; Bank Maturities; Basis Book; Basis Point; Basis Price; Bid Form; Blue List. Pg. 3: Bond Buyer's Index; Bond Order (Ordinance)(Resolution); Bond Year; Callable; Circular; City; Closed Lien; Combination Bonds. Pg. 4: Comptroller of Public Accounts; Concession; Confirmation; Coupon Bonds; Cover; Coverage; Current Tax Collections. Pg. 5: Customer Count; Debt Limitation; Debt Service Requirements; Default; Discount; Eastern Account; Effective Interest Rate. Pg. 6: Facsimile Signature; Financial Advisor; Financing Agreement; Firm; Fiscal Year; Flat. Pg. 7: Floating Debt; Floating Supply; Flow of Funds; General Obligations; General Purpose; Graduated Coupon; Historical Account; Interest Cost. Pg. 8: Interest Stop; Intermediate Maturities; Invoice; Joint Account; Legal Opinion; Limited Tax Bonds; Long Maturities; Mandatory Call; Negotiated Deal. Pg. 9: Net Debt; Non-Voted Bonds; Odd Lot; Offering Sale; Open End; Optional; Overlapping Debt; Over Sales; Parity Bonds. Pg. 10: Paying Agent; Payment Record; Personal Property; Point; Pre-Election Contract; Premium; Price. Pg. 11: Private Deal; Prospectus; Rating; Re-Allowance; Real Property; Refunding; Registrable Bonds; Reserve Fund; Revenue Bonds. Pg. 12: Secondary Market; Self Supporting Debt; Serial Bonds; Spread; State Aid; Step-Up; Supplemental Coupons. Pg. 13: Syndicate; Take-Down; Take-Or-Pay ("A term used to describe a type of contract under which the party who stands ready to deliver a commodity or to render a service is guaranteed a minimum payment whether or not the party who is to use the commodity or service actually availas himself of the right for which he is bound to pay."); Tax Levy; Tax Limitations; Tax Rate. Pg. 14: Tax Year; Term Bonds; Texas Municipal Report; Time Warrants; Turkey ("An underwriting deal on which you lose your shirt."); Unlimited Tax Bonds. Pg. 15: Visible Supply; Voted Bonds; Water District; Western Account; When Issued; Yield. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 22 04:37:35 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 00:37:35 EDT Subject: Dutch Apple Pie (Stouffer's of Ohio, 1922); Palace Court Salad Message-ID: See the archives for other posts on these two American dishes. Paddleford discusses them here in greater depth. In the (archived) 1938 "Dutch apple pie" article, Paddleford had left off the "Stouffer's" brand name, perhaps because of newspaper policy at that time. -------------------------------------------------------- DUTCH APPLE PIE From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 19 November 1949, pg. 9, col. 7: _Battle Over Apple Pie Still Rages_ ------------------------------- _Postcard Voters Stress Their Favorites; Story of_ _the Dutch Variety, at Stouffer's, Is Told_ By Clementine Paddleford (...) DUTCH PIE--(...) The pie is Stouffer's Dutch apple. It's the pie Mrs. A. E. Stouffer baked for her son Vernon to sell at asummer stand he set up in Dad's creamery in Cleveland, Ohio, around 1922. Vernon, home from college for a summer vacation, wanted to earn money and decided on a lunch stand. Dad supplied the buttermilk. Mom made the pie and the lad made money. Once Cleveland had tasted the Dutch apple pie, Vernon's business kept the whole family busy. Folks came for whole pies. By summer's end Mother was buying apples by the bushel and flour by the 100-pound bag. DAD TAKES OVER--Dad Stouffer, seeing Vernon's summer success, decided the food business might offer a better return than a creamery. He sold the place and opened a little restaurant on Ninth Street just off Euclid Avenue. Toasted sandwiches, buttermilk and the Dutch apple pie made up the menu. In less than a year the small place had a waiting line at the door, waiting for pie. (Stouffer's info deleted--ed.)(Col. 8--ed.) The pie shells measuring ten inches wide hold a full quart of the diced apples. Over the fruit goes a mixture of flour, sugar, milk and plenty of cinnamon, then quickly now into the oven. The up-jutting edges of the apple crisply brown and every last chunk of the fruit takes on a syrupy shine. Cut a slice and notice how juicy and soft. The crust is thin and flaky, tender under the fork. Neither too long nor too short. It is made with as little liquid as possible, this being the only way to get pastry that doesn't soak the juice when fruit-filled. But not a steely crust either, unwilling to accept a few artful advances from the apple. -------------------------------------------------------- PALACE COURT SALAD From THIS WEEK magazine, NYHT, 11 September 1949, pg. 44, col. 2: HOW AMERICA EATS _San Francisco..._ _PALACE COURT SALAD_ By Clementine Paddleford _It could star on any menu--especially_ _with these world-famous dressings..._ "THERE is a Central Court into which carriages can be driven rising the full seven stories of the hotel past balustraded galleries to an opaque glass roof." This excerpt from a San Francisco newspaper dated 1875 described the entrance to the incredible halls of the newly opened Palace Hotel. Then the world could scarcely believe what it saw: walls two feet thick, a quarter of a mile in circumference, enclosing an area of two-and-one-half acres; seven stories, 800 rooms, a dining room 150 feet long. The Palace Hotel is still a world-famous hostelry but less amazing to this generation, surrounded as we are by architectural miracles. Yet no gourmet even today would think of visiting San Francisco and not dining at the Palace. I went knowing exactly what I wanted to eat: the Palace Court Salad. In its own small way it's an architectural wonder. _Tower of Delight_ THE cobblestoned central court is now the Garden Court dining room. There the salad stars on the menu: a tower of delight. Do it this way: Salad base is shredded lettuce cut fine as fine--use the scissors. Make a half-inch thick mattress of the shreds to almost cover the plate. Center on this a thick slice of tomato, now a large heart of artichoke (these you buy canned), turn cup side up resting on tomato. Fill the cup with cooked crab meat, cooked shrimp or diced white meat of chicken marinated in French dressing and very well drained. Build the tower spoonful by spoonful to a peak five inches tall from the base of the artichoke. Over this dip three or four tablespoons of the Thousand Islang Dressing as (Col. 3--ed.) it is made at the Palace. Add two tablespoons sieved yolk of hard-cooked egg to bank the base of the salad like a golden wedding band. Umm--a good dressing! (Recipes for Thousand Island Dressing and Green-Goddess Dressing follow...The "Garden Court" was called the "Palm Court" before 1942--ed.) From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Sat Sep 22 11:26:38 2001 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 06:26:38 -0500 Subject: Shop Talk of the Texas Bond Man (1960) Message-ID: A legendary bond salesman once sold "MPT's" Milwaukee Pay Toilet revenue bonds guaranteed by the income from pay toilets in munincipal buildingss in Milwaukee. Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > SHOP TALK > OF > THE TEXAS BOND MAN [snip] > > A From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Sat Sep 22 11:50:49 2001 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 06:50:49 -0500 Subject: forgot to... Message-ID: "Paul M. Johnson" wrote: > > A legendary bond salesman once sold "MPT's" Milwaukee Pay Toilet revenue > bonds guaranteed by the income from pay toilets in munincipal buildings. Forgot to add there were no such bonds > in Milwaukee. > Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > > > SHOP TALK > > OF > > THE TEXAS BOND MAN > [snip] > > > > A From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Sep 22 12:33:37 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 08:33:37 -0400 Subject: "on the may"--typo for "on the way" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think Gerald Cohen has solved this, with a simple but subtly brilliant bit of textual criticism. Textual critics, try to divine the best text they can from ancient manuscripts, apply the principle of "lectio difficilior". It basically means that when faced with alternatives in a text, choose the one that is harder to justify ('the more difficult reading'). GC has applied the reverse logic here, and rightly. Frank Abate From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Sat Sep 22 15:17:52 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 11:17:52 -0400 Subject: Shop Talk of the Texas Bond Man (1960) Message-ID: "Take or pay" is quite a bit older than 1960. From 1941: >>A provision in said contract known as the 'take or pay' clause requires the purchaser to take a minimum amount of gas annually and in the event such a quantity is not taken by the purchaser, he is obligated to pay a sum equivalent to the amount computed as the minimum requirements, but the purchaser thereby becomes entitled to a credit upon the future delivery of gas.<< In re Michigan Consolidated Gas Co., Release No. 35-2532, 8 S.E.C. 550 (Jan. 30, 1941). The term is a common one in finance. See, e.g., http://www.investorwords.com/t1.htm#takeorpaycontract. It derives from the once-common contractual formulation that a buyer will "take and pay for" the thing sold. Nowadays buyers usually agree to "purchase and pay for" things. I remember the popular slang use of "turkey" in the 1970s to describe an inadequate person or thing, and it's sometimes still used in the securities field to describe a security that has performed poorly. I wasn't aware that it ever had such a specific meaning as that given below. I see from the OED Supplement (I'm traveling and don't have access to the online version at the moment) that "turkey" was used to mean a show business flop by 1927. John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [SMTP:Bapopik at AOL.COM] > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 11:32 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Shop Talk of the Texas Bond Man (1960) > > SHOP TALK > OF > THE TEXAS BOND MAN > > A Glossary of Words and Phrases > from the Professional Vocabulary of > Those Who Deal in Municipal Bonds > > MUNICIPAL ADVISORY COUNCIL OF TEXAS > 1960 > > Jesse Sheidlower was interested in the "muni," so Gerald Cohen kindly > inter-library loaned and copied this 15-page book. > It doesn't have "muni," it doesn't have much slang, and it's not of > much interest. Perhaps "Take-Or-Pay" or "Turkey" can be used. > The terms are: > > > Pg. 13: Syndicate; Take-Down; Take-Or-Pay ("A term used to describe a > type of contract under which the party who stands ready to deliver a > commodity or to render a service is guaranteed a minimum payment whether > or not the party who is to use the commodity or service actually availas > himself of the right for which he is bound to pay."); Tax Levy; Tax > Limitations; Tax Rate. > > Pg. 14: Tax Year; Term Bonds; Texas Municipal Report; Time Warrants; > Turkey ("An underwriting deal on which you lose your shirt."); Unlimited > Tax Bonds. > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 22 16:26:20 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 12:26:20 EDT Subject: "Butter Pecan" mystery (1949) Message-ID: There's a "butter pecan" mystery that's far, far greater than "pecan pie." I found a 1949 cite yesterday, but it's temporarily lost. There are over 10,000 "butter pecan" web hits. "Butter Pecan" is not in Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK, not in OED, not in M-W, not before 1951 in OCLC WorldCat, not in American Memory, not in Periodicals Contents Index, only four piddly hits on the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office online site... Does OED have any files? Barnhardt? From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Sat Sep 22 16:38:53 2001 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 12:38:53 -0400 Subject: cabbie-joint Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Pulliam" To: Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 10:05 Subject: cabbie-joint > It's probably just new to me, but my Indian students introduced this > term to me last night in class--it refers to an otherwise > little-known restaurant frequented and publicized by cab drivers. New York Press refers to them as "cab stands" in their annual Best Of issue. Not too far off, given that a) NYC lacks proper cab stands, except outside the Port Authority bus terminal, and perhaps Penn Station, and b) you can get cabs there pretty easy. Along with a meal. bkd From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Sat Sep 22 17:12:06 2001 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 10:12:06 -0700 Subject: 24/7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 24/7 originated in AAE, as found in Smitherman's _Black Talk_ (2000), p. 288. --- Barnhart wrote: > The term 24-7 is found in the Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. > 8.4, > 1993). It probably needs an updated treatment. > > No origin was speculated at the time. My guess is that it arose in > the > slang/jargon of Silicon Valley. > > Regards, > David > > David K. Barnhart, Editor > The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] > barnhart at highlands.com > www.highlands.com/Lexik > > "Necessity obliges us to neologize." > Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 ===== Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Associate Professor - English and Linguistics & University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 (757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5421(fax);(757)851-5773(home) e-mail: mlee303 at yahoo.com or margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Sep 22 21:44:28 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 17:44:28 -0400 Subject: Origin of Term "Ivy League" In-Reply-To: <3d.11bd54ac.28de15ad@aol.com> Message-ID: A few years ago Barry Popik, with his usual outstanding research, traced the term "Ivy League" back to December 1935 (the OED has 1939). Now a new book about Ivy League football pushes it back even further: [1933 Stanley Woodward in _N.Y. Herald Tribune_ 14 Oct. in Mark F. Bernstein _Football: The Ivy League Origins of an American Obsession_ (2001) xii A proportion of our eastern ivy colleges are meeting little fellows another Saturday before plunging into the strife and the turmoil.] 1935 Alan Gould in _Providence Journal_ 8 Feb. in Mark F. Bernstein _Football: The Ivy League Origins of an American Obsession_ (2001) 281 (heading) Brown seen as charter member of Ivy League. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From savan at EROLS.COM Sun Sep 23 01:43:45 2001 From: savan at EROLS.COM (leslie savan) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 18:43:45 -0700 Subject: Homeland, Motherland Message-ID: Gov. Tom Ridge will head the new cabinet-level Office of Homeland Security. "Homeland" evokes for me the sound of "Motherland" and, to a lesser degree, "Fatherland." Is there anyone out there who has detailed the history of these words and how, if at all, they've been used interchangeably? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 22 23:18:05 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 19:18:05 EDT Subject: Ivy League; Aztec Two-Step (1953) Message-ID: IVY LEAGUE I was recently brousing the Chicago Public Library's web site. It states that Charles Anderson Dana coined "Windy City" just before 1893. It also informs that "Ivy League" (a frequently asked question) comes from the league of four colleges (Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Columbia), or "IV League." If someone told you this, you'd tell that person to get to a library. BUT THIS IS THIS LIBRARY! Some 1920s citations that I have come very close to "Ivy League," but I can't find them now. I think they're from the "Subway Series" search (October 1923 & 1936). -------------------------------------------------------- AZTEC TWO-STEP by Stuart Sherman Greenberg Publishers, NY 1953 Lighter's RHHDAS lists only the title to this work as the first entry for "Aztec Two-Step," so maybe he didn't read it. I was looking for "Montezuma's Revenge," which is not here. Pg. 11: While it is true that the word "Touristas" is Mexican slang for tourists, the word as used here has a much more ominous meaning. It describes an amoebic "bug" you can get in tropical climates or, in fact, anywhere else. To set the record straight, the "Touristas" is atom-powered, supersonic diarrhea and _nothing_ more. We had a spell at the World's Fair in Chicago in 1934 and, reputedly, Texas Guinan died of it and, no matter how you describe it, it's a _Hell_ of a thing! The Mexicans have another name that is even better; at least, it's less serious. They call it 'The Aztec Two-Step." If you are one of the uninformed, let me explain that the Aztecs were one of a number of Indian tribes that lived in Mexico, that were noted for the dizzy pace at which they moved. It is said, without fear of contradiction, that an Aztec brave (Pg. 12--ed.) could run the hundred yard dash in the world shattering time of nine seconds, while going sideways in a two-step at the same speed he was going forward. As the name applies to the "Touristas" it is descriptive of the speed at which you negotiate the distance between your bed and the "john." Pg. 90: Late that night I made several signs on toilet paper and hung them on the outside of my door for the staff to see. They said: "_I'M_ FAIRLY INTELLIGENT MYSELF BUT I HAVE A LOT OF STUPID HELP AROUND _HERE_." I also tacked up the following signs, put out by Tanner and Company in Indianapolis, for the patients and the doctors to read: "IN CASE OF ATOM BOMB ATTACK, HIDE UNDER THE URINAL. NO ONE EVER HITS _IT_." "YOU HAVE A PERFECT RIGHT TO YOUR OPINION--PROVIDED IT AGREES WITH _MINE_." "YOUR CALL HAS CLIMAXED AN ALREADY _DULL_ DAY." "I'M NOT HARD OF HEARING (Pg. 91--ed.) --I'M JUST IGNORING _YOU_." "WHAT'S ON YOUR MIND?--IF YOU'LL _FORGIVE_ THE OVERSTATEMENT." Pg. 158: The next day she came back with what she had typed out and after reading it, I thought it exceedingly funny, even though I knew that I was full of that "hop juice." Pg. 178: Fortunately, no nurses were around at the moment, having their "coffee break," as they called it. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 23 00:00:42 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 20:00:42 EDT Subject: Macadamizing (1824); Marihuana/Mary Anna (1916) and more Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Bapopik at aol.com Subject: Macadamizing (1824); Marihuana/Mary Anna (1916) and more Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 19:59:12 EDT Size: 2450 URL: From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Sep 23 02:42:10 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 21:42:10 -0500 Subject: Query:"jasm" (= energy, vitality) Message-ID: The term "jazz" probably derives from a now obsolete term "jasm" (= energy, vitality). _DARE_ gives 1860 as the date of the first attestation, and the apparently related term "jism" (= energy, vim; ability; semen) is first attested in 1842. The origin of the term is obscure. But Douglas Wilson has very tentatively advanced a suggestion to me, and with his permission I now share it with the ads-l members: Might "jasm" be a shortened and altered form of "(enthu)siasm"? Specifically, might some people have pronounced "enthusiasm" something like "enthuzhasm" ("zh" here as in the Russian name "Zhivago")? And might this "zh" (uncommon at the beginning of a syllable in English) been replaced by "j"? Hence: "(enthu)jasm," shortened to just "jasm" Webster III has a definition and example for "jasm" which fit "enthusiasm" perfectly: "jasm (origin unknown). zest for accomplishment. DRIVE, ENERGY. You must have jasm if you want to amount to anything in this world." Again, this is all tentative, like thinking out loud. Still, is there any evidence that might support it? ---Gerald Cohen From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Sep 23 03:43:34 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 23:43:34 -0400 Subject: elope Message-ID: Is "elope" in the old sense of "escape" common in contemporary English? All the examples in my database are in the sense of "run away together to get married," as in "Dick eloped with Jane" and "They eloped." I was surprised to see the following usages in _The Day the Voices Stopped (a memoir of madness and hope)_ by Ken Steele & Claire Berman (Basic Books, 2001): "I was worried if people knew my real name, they'd soon learn I'd eloped from Metropolitan" (p. 97) and "For no clear reason, except that I was bored and was being prodded to get on with my death, I eloped from the Lodge during one of our recreational trips...." (p. 152). From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Sep 23 03:44:07 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 23:44:07 -0400 Subject: Homeland, Motherland Message-ID: I wonder if this use of "homeland" is another example of the "Bush Dyslexicon," like the use of "infinite" in "Infinite Justice." leslie savan wrote: > > Gov. Tom Ridge will head the new cabinet-level Office of Homeland > Security. "Homeland" evokes for me the sound of "Motherland" and, to a > lesser degree, "Fatherland." Is there anyone out there who has detailed > the history of these words and how, if at all, they've been used > interchangeably? From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Sep 23 03:57:32 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 23:57:32 -0400 Subject: elope Message-ID: Is the use of "elope" in the old sense of "escape" common in contemporary English? All the usages in my 1989-1990 database are in the sense of "run away together to get married" as in "Dick eloped with Jane"and "They eloped." I was surprised to see the following usages in _The Day the Voices Stopped (a memoir of madness and hope)_ by Ken Steele and Claire Berman (Basic Books, 2001): "For one thing, I was worried that if people knew my real name, they'd soon learn that I'd eloped from Metropolitan...." (p. 97). "For no clear reason, except that I was bored and was being prodded to get on with my death, I eloped from the Lodge during one of our recreational trips...." (p. 152) From salovex at WPO.CSO.NIU.EDU Sun Sep 23 09:18:56 2001 From: salovex at WPO.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 04:18:56 -0500 Subject: Mexican Strawberry; La Mordida Message-ID: The discussion of the Mexican meaning of the word "mordida" raises Whorfian questions about the translatability of words that are deeply embedded in cultural meanings. I wouldn't think of raising such a general (and probably unanswerable) question here. But there something deeply wrong, in cultural terms, with the translation that's usually given. Yes, "mordida" is a dimunitive form of "bite". Yes, it's ubiquitous. But saying that "mordida" means "bribe" is more an instance of gringo projection than of accurate analysis of what mordidas are about. "Bribes", up here in Gringolandia, imply an effort to suborn some official process, usually involving an agent of government at some level. In public, or in teaching schoolkids how our system works, we hold to an ideal that everyone is equal before the law. If I want to renew my driver's license, or get a copy of my birth certificate, or get some kind of official answer to my questions about Social Security or Medicare, I write a letter or go to the relevant government office with the expectation that a public servant will respond to my request. That "public servant" works for the government agency. Since we call ourselves a democracy, we take that to mean that the government employee works for us. It would be a subversion of our whole ideal of how government is supposed to work if one of those public servants -- that is, one of my employees -- refused to do the job I'm already paying him to do unless he received additional compensation: a bribe. Generally speaking, Mexican rules don't work that way. Approaches to government agencies -- including, say, public hospitals or the office that issues passports or the equivalent of a recorder of deeds -- are like any other social interaction. The preferred approach begins with kinship: you go to your cousin who works in the hospital, and she intercedes with the doctor to ensure that you'll get an appointment while a doctor's visit will still do you some good. If you don't have any relatives who provide a link, maybe somebody you work with or your neighbor or your old second grade teacher can open the door for you. What counts is the social link to the institution: going to your cousin who mops the floors will get you into the hospital process. If you show up at the appointment desk or the emergency check-in without the intercession of a social connection you'll wait a long time for service -- even if you're obviously about to die. The government employee does not see himself as a public servant. The services he provides gain their meaning out of personalized relations almost to the exclusion of their material efficacy. The government employee's role includes some instrumental behavior, but the important part of the role is what the civil servant does as a social enabler. His value comes from serving as the link that gets services delivered to his family, his compadres, perhaps his neighbors, and certainly to the influential people who interceded personally to get him the job in the first place. Civil servants are expected to give priority to fultilling individual personal obligations rather than to fulfilling the duties specified in a bureaucratic job description. That's why their paychecks are ridiculously small, even compared to the cost of starving to death. (I'll elide the systematic exception by not trying to explain how the kleptocrats at the top of the system accumulate fortunes out of their high offices when the government and the banks actually went bankrupt twenty years ago and show no signs of recovery to this day.) Now suppose that I am in a bind: I need a government service, and I have no social connection to people who have anything to do with providing that service. There has to be an alternative means of approach, even in a system that is personalized to the hilt. Lacking the standard means of access, what I can do is provide a reason why a government employee should attend to my needs even when she has no social obligation to do so. I find a way of offering a mordida. For someone with fairly high social status, the mordida might be in the form of converting a business call on an office to a social call with the one in charge. After all, it's standard form to talk politely about the weather or the news or anything other than the business which brings you to a government office -- or a store, or a university office, and so on. Getting right down to business would be downright boorish, and probably counter-productive as well. Talking with the office boss, one way to offer a mordida would be to mention one's business, off-handedly, framing the statement in observations that this is a busy office and surely the important people in it have better things to do than take care of this little problem . . . Perhaps, Mr. Manager, you could oblige me by repaying your clerks for the special efforts they will have to make by letting me buy them some refreshments when the job is done . . . Here's a little something that could take care of it . . . Those at the bottom of the totem pole just have to ask around to find out what the standard fee might be, or wait until they're told -- and they pay because that's the entrance fee. Maybe I can reduce the cultural gap by translating the word "mordida" into something we are familiar with in our system. I think "user fee" might do the trick. One of the reasons the Mexican government is broke is that they're not very good at collecting taxes, and the Mexican public is very good at evading taxes one way or another. (Again, personal networks provide a means for keeping the government at bay: I take care of my relatives, and they take care of me, and no money changes hands so no taxes accrue.) Paying a mordida simply reflects the fact that someone who wants something out of the government is expected to pay for services rendered. If people avoid paying taxes at the front door, they can expect to have to pay mordidas at the back door. Mexicans simply can't understand why we gringos get so bothered by the idea of mordidas. What they see is that gringos don't know how the system works, and they don't seem to try to find out. Gringos often ignore even the most obvious hints suggesting that they would be better off paying a mordida than trying to use their heads as battering rams -- or their outraged sensibility as grounds for upsetting everyone around them. Once in a while, when the cultural wind is in the right direction, an occasional gringo achieves a Zen satori in these matters. Take, e.g., an explanation a federal judge (and good friend) gave me when I questioned him about a mordida he had just arranged to pay. He needed some tax stamps to affix to a stack of official papers so as to complete a transaction he was facilitating for his cousin. The stamps could only be obtained in the Oficina de Hacienda, the tax collector's office. The judge sent one of his clerks to get the stamps, carefully specifying the type needed and the cost. As he counted out the fee, he told his clerk how much of a mordida to pay to whom in order to facilitate the transaction. I knew that the local tax collector and the judge were compadres and very good friends, and I was surprised that there would be any mordida. I leaned on or friendship to ask the judge to enlighten my ignorance. He spelled it out for me: "Well, of course Don Avram (the formal title appropriate in talking to me about his friend) would take care of this for me. But I don't want to bother him with such trifles. It's easier just to have my clerk pay his clerks for their services ." Culturally speaking, a mordida isn't a bribe because there is no intent to subvert the system. A mordida is an unofficial and informal payment for official services rendered. Oh, nuts. I guess you just had to be there . . . -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > LA MORDIDA > > > > From THIS WEEK, NYHT, 12 December 1948, pg. 34, col. 1: > > > > _MEXICO'S WAR ON THE "BITE"_ > > _That's the Mexicans' pet name for the tradition_ > > _of bribery--but it no longer signifies affection._ > > _Now press and government are swinging into action_ > > (...) > > That's the bribe--or, as the Mexicans call it, _la mordida_. Springing from the perpetual pinch of poverty, the _mordida_ has been an age-old custom so generally accepted and so widely practiced that it long ago gained the orthodoxy of an institution. > > 1940 _Life_ 2 Dec. 102 In Mexico, and throughout Latin America, it is > next to impossible to make headway with petty officials without constant > applications of the _mordida,_ which literally translated means 'the bite', > or bribe. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED -- -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! IN MEMORIAM: Peggy Salovesh 25 January 1932 -- 3 March 2001 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 23 11:52:30 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 07:52:30 EDT Subject: French Vanilla (1928), Butter Pecan (1938); Frozen Pizza (1949) Message-ID: FRENCH VANILLA, BUTTER PECAN (continued) AMERICAN COOKERY, June/July 1928-May 1929 Ice Cream, French Vanilla...41 AMERICAN COOKERY, June/July 1938-May 1939 Ice Cream, Butter Pecan...115 -------------------------------------------------------- FROZEN PIZZA "The first frozen pizza was marketed by the Celentano Brothers in 1957." --John Mariani, ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK, pg. 244. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 18 July 1949, pg. 9, col. 6: _Frozen Pizza at 39 cents is Quick Meal for One_ -------------------------- _Not For an Epicure, Though;_ _Adding Seasoning Helps;_ _Irish Bacon Back Again_ By Clementine Paddleford If you have your mouth set on the real thing, that is, a pizza made by an Italian pizza expert, peeled bubbling hot from a brick oven--this isn't your meat. But if you aren't too fussy here's a quick-frozen pizza that will be ready to serve any time you care to snatch it from the freezer to hand to the oven for a fifteen-minute sojourn. This looks like a real pizza. Made open face with a yeast dough base, it smells like the real thing with its spicy tomato cheese filling, but there is something missing when it comes to flavor. We suggest adding more mozzarrello cheese and a big sprinkling of hot pepper. You may have other ideas. Easy to fix as heating the oven. One is just right for one, price 39 cents in the drozen food stores. Two stores we know handling these pies made by Roman Raviola, Inc., of Garfield, N. J., are Authentic Foods, 2680 Broadway, and the Verdi Square Shop, 283 Amsterdam Avenue. -------------------------------------------------------- ZUCCHINI STICKS (continued) This beats the December 1949 citation. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 19 February 1949, pg. 11, col. 6: She folds the veal turnover style, sautes the (Col. 7--ed.) pieces in butter, and quickly now to a dangerously hot platter along with French fried zucchini sticks, French fried mushrooms and a rice croquette. (Served at Squeri's, 305 East Fiftieth Street--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- CHILI DOGS (continued) From a Hormel ad in THIS WEEK, NYHT, 25 September 1949, pg. 43, col. 2: "Everybody likes Hormel Chili..." DOUBLE YOUR MONEY BACK IF _YOU_ DON'T (...) SOME LIKE IT ON A HOT DOG... Spoon a generous amount of bubbling hot Hormel Chili over a grilled frankfurter and bun. Live- ly sauce replaces usual relish; meat and beans make the chili hot dog a real he-man favorite. (...) HORMEL CHILI CON CARNE From salovex at WPO.CSO.NIU.EDU Sun Sep 23 12:20:20 2001 From: salovex at WPO.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 07:20:20 -0500 Subject: Willie Howard Message-ID: Barry Popik said: > WILLIE HOWARD & "COMES THE REVOLUTION" > > The NYHT, 13 January 1949, obituary for Willie Howard reveals that he was a > dialect comedian who possibly put several slang phrases into circulation. I'll > check his file when the Performing Arts Library reopens. > > From col. 3: > > For each of his classic sketches--"The Quartet," "Mexican Presidents," "I > Can Get It for You Wholesale," "After the Opera" or "French Lessons"--he had a > different approach. His famous "Rewolt" routine ("Comes the ravalution, you'll > eat strawberries and like it!") furnished a favorite gag for the depression > years. Dear Barry: At this late hour, I can't judge whether this is or is not right for the list. OK, let folks on the list hit delete. I'm sending this to you because I'm sure it is right for you. Besides, it's my way of saying thanks for your very kind words about my reappearance. Old Willie Howard routines surely must have affected popular language in their day, and it's wise to check them. While you're at it, I'd bet that other comics from stage, vaudeville, and burlesque must have had an impact, too. My guess is that those whose routines circulated on phonograph records are the most likely bet as sources of language.dialect innovation. The whole point to a classic routine like "Comes the revolution" was that everybody in the audience knew every line. That's true of routines from even earlier times: think of the "Arkansas Traveler", for example. Once a comic bit reached classic status, the audience might have rioted if so much as a word got changed. That's the performing truth of the scenes in "The Sunshine Boys". Remember? Two retired vaudevillians, a famous team that broke up out of repetition, are brought back for a TV special. One of them insists on responding to a knock at the door by saying "Enter!" instead of "Come in!" The genius of a Willie Howard (or his like, from Gallagher and Sheen at one end to Red Skelton at the other) was that they could get the audience roaring in laughter even though everyone knew what the next line would be. Well, maybe not quite everybody knew every line. Or maybe Willie Howard had been forgotten by the press and everybody else outside the Borscht Belt when he died. In any event, the obit in the New York Herald Tribune got it wrong -- hence this communique from P Triple A C, the Pedantic Accuracy At Any Cost front. The beauty of the best of those old routines is that you didn't have to see the originals to learn all of their lines. People performed them verbatim for each other's benefit. "Comes the revolution" outlived Willie Howard; we used to do it for each other on and around Chicago's 55th street in the 1950s. The setting for such shenanigans came when a bunch of theater-oriented street people took over the premises of an East 55th Street bar. While the bar was still a bar, I played piano there for tips. I don't think my playing was why they went broke, but it's possible. As the theater gang converted the dark precincts of the old bar into a light and airy cafe/cabaret/improv theater, I just sort of blended in with them. I had to: when we finished painting the walls, we ALL blended into everything inside the place. Paint was everywhere. The biggest fun with that crowd was throwing bits at each other -- telephone bits, for example. (Hold up your left hand, with the first three fingers folded down to yor palm. Point your little finger at your mouth and your thumb at your ear and start talking as if your hand was a phone.) And, of course, Willie Howard bits, Danny Kaye bits, Laurel and Hardy bits, and so on. Who's the "we" who did all those bits? Lots of unknowns, and lots who became knowns: Mike Nichols and Shelley Berman and, I think, Bob Newhart, to name three of the knowns. (Those fist-as-phone bits were the genesis of some of the best solo acts Berman and Newhart ever did.) Eventually, the core of the gang moved to the North Side and became Second City. (Ohne mich: that was the time when I discovered anthropology. I knew theater didn't pay much, and anthropology looked like it could be just as much fun while showing some chance of bringing in a miserly salary, to boot. And that's what I got out of anthropology, too. Lotsa fun, no money.) "Comes the revolution" went like this: Open, on burlesque's classic Fleegle Street. Crowd (made up of comics, cops, and strippers with street clothes drawn over their invisible performing costumes) comes and goes. For variety, some go and go, or come and come: exit left, then reenter stage right. Lots of room for pantomime bits in the crowd, until: Enter WILLIE HOWARD, carrying a soapbox. He sets the box down, with some business about slipping as he starts to mount it. Finally he makes it to a standing position on top of the box, and starts to orate. (I won't even try to represent the accent -- give me a phone call some day and I'll reproduce it for you, as best I can.) HOWARD: "Fellow workers!" Crowd ignores him. HOWARD, louder: "Fellow workers!!!" No effect; tummeling continues. HOWARD: "FELLOW WORKERS !!!" A dope stops and stares up at the orator. Howard, blessed with an audience, albeit with only one member, directs its placement: HOWARD: "Make a circle, make a circle." -- yeah, it all comes back to me now. And I don't care what the obituary says. The last lines go: HOWARD: "Comes the revolution, you'll eat strawberries and cream." DOPE: "But I don't like strawberries and cream!" HOWARD: "Comes the revolution, you'll eat strawberries and cream and LIKE it!" (Lights out. End of skit.) See what I mean? Strawberries alone just don't make it. Saying "strawberries" without cream is like saying "enter" when everybody knows you're supposed to say "come in". It's strawberries and cream or nothing. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! IN MEMORIAM: Peggy Salovesh 25 January 1932 -- 3 March 2001 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 23 13:22:56 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 09:22:56 EDT Subject: Goopher Feathers & a Big Bang (1949) Message-ID: GOOPHER FEATHERS The RHHDAS has no entry. "Horsefeathers" is in the RHHDAS from 1927, coined by T. A. Dorgan. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 2 August 1949, pg. 12, col. 2: _George Moran,_ _Of "Two Black_ _Crows", Is Dead_ ----------------- _Dies at 67 in Charity Ward;_ _Late Charles Mack His_ _Partner in Blackface Act_ (...) _Comedian in 1920s_ George Moran, with the late Charles E. Mack, was one of the men who set the American cultural pattern of the 1920s. Founded on sure-fire gags, delivered with a dead-pan drawl and expert timing, their black-face routine brought them to the top in vaudeville and musical comedy; sold 7,000,000 phonograph records in homes across the country and blossomed briefly on radio. In the process, they made "goopher feathers"--defined by Mack as "the fuzz offa peaches"--a by-word for nonsense, and launched a string of anecdotes that remain as echoes of the '30s. Many, like the "goopher feathers"--were derived from an experiment in farming that was an inexhaustible subject of Moran and Mack routines. (I'll check them out when the Performing Arts Library re-opens, around October 15--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- CALL THE SHOTS RHHDAS A-G "call" says to check "shot." Thanks. OED has 1967. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, full page ad for PATHFINDER news magazine (TIME & NEWSWEEK competitor), 12 October 1949, pg. 33: WHO DO YOU GET TO "CALL YOUR SHOTS?" (...) These Are Some of the Men Who "Call the Shots" in Sturgis, Mich. -------------------------------------------------------- "YOU'RE ANOTHER!" From a cartoon in the NYHT, 28 August 1949, section 2, pg. 7, col. 1. "You're Another!" is the caption. Kettle "TITO" argues with Pot "STALIN." -------------------------------------------------------- BUSH PILOT OED has 1936. From the NYHT, 22 June 1949, pg. 18, col. 2: _Joe Crosson,_ _Famed Alaskan_ _Pilot, Is Dead_ --------------- _Helped Curb Epidemics in_ _'30s; Flew Will Rogers,_ _Wiley Post Back to U.S._ (...)(Col. 3--ed.) An Army pilot in World War I, he left California for Alaska in 1926 for the lure of pioneering in Alaskan aviation. He was one of the first and most famous of the "bush pilots." He flew for a thousand miles in every direction from Fairbanks. -------------------------------------------------------- SCRATCH SHEET OED has his name, but cites the date as 1917. From the NYHT, 8 August 1949, pg. 16, col. 5: _William Armstrong,_ _Racing Publisher_ ------------------ _Bowery News Dealer Printed_ _First "Scratch Sheet"_ (...) By 1916 he had a stand on the Bowery and conceived the idea of issuing his own racing information bulletin which would give last-minute information on the racing day. From this beginning he developed a large publishing enterprise specializing in information about horses withdrawn from competition on the morning of a race, handicappers' choices and other racing data. (A court case is described that decided that "scratch sheets" were not "tipster sheets"--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- BASEBALL UMPIRE PHRASES From the NYHT, 15 June 1949, pg. 20, col. 2: _"Uncle Charlie" Moran, Umpire_ _And Football Coach, Dies at 70_ (...)(Col. 3--ed.) As a baseball umpire, Mr. Moran was noted for his rasping voice, especially when a decision was disputed, and for his passion for anonymity. He shunned public attention. "The public never notices you until it thinks you've called one wrong," he used to say. His most famous standby expression was, "It ain't nothing until I call it." -------------------------------------------------------- GOING TO CAIN'S From the NYHT, 14 May 1949, pg. 12, col. 4: _P. J. Cain Dies;_ _Ran Theatrical_ _Storage House_ ----------------- _Warehouse Became Famous_ _on Broadway as "Journey's_ _End" for Show Failures_ (...) Even when some other moving and storage company got the business, the closing production was known as "going to Cain's." As attendance began to flag, actors used a wisecrack that became a tradition: "Next week we're going to Cain's." A critic once wrote of a poor show: "The audience was so bored you could hear Cain's trucks carting the show away as each act ended." -------------------------------------------------------- WHEN AN IRRESISTIBLE FORCE MEETS AN IMMOVABLE OBJECT "When an irresistable force such as you Meets an old immovable object like me You can bet as sure as you live Something's gotta give, Something's gotta give, Something's gotta give." --Johnny Mercer song "Something's Gotta Give," 1957 From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 8 November 1949, pg. 24, cols. 5-7 cartoon: Now Comes the Immovable Object (The candidates are using a lever to move voter apathy--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- BASEBALL MIDGET (OFF TOPIC) Has the information below been recorded? I recently read an article about Bill Veeck and the midget Eddie Gaedel. Veeck sent Gaedel to the plate in 1951. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 8 August 1949, pg. 17, col. 3: _Bill Veeck and the Midget_ ACCORDING TO Ted Lyons, Red Rolfe's first lieutenant on the Tigers, the possibility of a midget in major league baseball is not as ridiculous as it sounds..."For example," says Lyons, "if the Cleveland Indians had a bases loaded situation, two outs, and one run needed to win the pennant, I wouldn't be surprised to see Bill Veeck come up with a midget on his squad for the express purpose of stepping to the plate and working the pitcher for a base on balls." -------------------------------------------------------- BIG BANG I'll end with a bang. Fred Hoyle, who died recently, coined his "Big Bang" theory in 1950. From the NYHT, "Matter of Fact" by Joseph and Stewart Alsop, 3 October 1949, pg. 13, cols. 7-8: _Politics of a Big Bang_ From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Sep 23 13:59:53 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 09:59:53 -0400 Subject: Goopher Feathers & a Big Bang (1949) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Goopher feathers" sounds an awful lot like "foo-foo dust," which has southern perhaps African-American origins. In my family's usage, "foo-foo dust" was the mildly sarcastic magical cure for small problems (especially in such phrases as "Here, let's sprinkle some foo-foo dust on it"), particularly unreasonable requests or trifling ills, perhaps especially children's. DARE has "goofer" (and "goofer dust" in citations under "goofer" in this "magic sense," marked chiefly southern and African-American). Oddly, DARE has "foo-foo" in the obviously West African cooked yam sense but only a single entry for "foo-foo" as dust, and then as a synonym for "dust bunny," "dust ball," or "dust kitten" but no magical powder sense. Did we discuss "foo-foo dust" (or a variant) earlier? dInIs >GOOPHER FEATHERS > > The RHHDAS has no entry. > "Horsefeathers" is in the RHHDAS from 1927, coined by T. A. Dorgan. > From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 2 August 1949, pg. 12, col. 2: > >_George Moran,_ >_Of "Two Black_ >_Crows", Is Dead_ >----------------- >_Dies at 67 in Charity Ward;_ > _Late Charles Mack His_ > _Partner in Blackface Act_ >(...) > _Comedian in 1920s_ > George Moran, with the late Charles E. Mack, was one of the men >who set the American cultural pattern of the 1920s. Founded on >sure-fire gags, delivered with a dead-pan drawl and expert timing, >their black-face routine brought them to the top in vaudeville and >musical comedy; sold 7,000,000 phonograph records in homes across >the country and blossomed briefly on radio. > In the process, they made "goopher feathers"--defined by Mack as >"the fuzz offa peaches"--a by-word for nonsense, and launched a >string of anecdotes that remain as echoes of the '30s. Many, like >the "goopher feathers"--were derived from an experiment in farming >that was an inexhaustible subject of Moran and Mack routines. > >(I'll check them out when the Performing Arts Library re-opens, >around October 15--ed.) > >-------------------------------------------------------- >CALL THE SHOTS > > RHHDAS A-G "call" says to check "shot." Thanks. > OED has 1967. > From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, full page ad for PATHFINDER >news magazine (TIME & NEWSWEEK competitor), 12 October 1949, pg. 33: > >WHO DO YOU GET TO >"CALL YOUR SHOTS?" >(...) >These Are Some of the Men Who >"Call the Shots" in Sturgis, Mich. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >"YOU'RE ANOTHER!" > > From a cartoon in the NYHT, 28 August 1949, section 2, pg. 7, col. 1. > "You're Another!" is the caption. > Kettle "TITO" argues with Pot "STALIN." > >-------------------------------------------------------- >BUSH PILOT > > OED has 1936. > From the NYHT, 22 June 1949, pg. 18, col. 2: > >_Joe Crosson,_ >_Famed Alaskan_ >_Pilot, Is Dead_ >--------------- >_Helped Curb Epidemics in_ > _'30s; Flew Will Rogers,_ > _Wiley Post Back to U.S._ >(...)(Col. 3--ed.) > An Army pilot in World War I, he left California for Alaska in >1926 for the lure of pioneering in Alaskan aviation. He was one of >the first and most famous of the "bush pilots." He flew for a >thousand miles in every direction from Fairbanks. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >SCRATCH SHEET > > OED has his name, but cites the date as 1917. > From the NYHT, 8 August 1949, pg. 16, col. 5: > >_William Armstrong,_ >_Racing Publisher_ >------------------ >_Bowery News Dealer Printed_ > _First "Scratch Sheet"_ >(...) By 1916 he had a stand on the Bowery and conceived the idea >of issuing his own racing information bulletin which would give >last-minute information on the racing day. From this beginning he >developed a large publishing enterprise specializing in information >about horses withdrawn from competition on the morning of a race, >handicappers' choices and other racing data. > >(A court case is described that decided that "scratch sheets" were >not "tipster sheets"--ed.) > >-------------------------------------------------------- >BASEBALL UMPIRE PHRASES > > From the NYHT, 15 June 1949, pg. 20, col. 2: > >_"Uncle Charlie" Moran, Umpire_ >_And Football Coach, Dies at 70_ >(...)(Col. 3--ed.) > As a baseball umpire, Mr. Moran was noted for his rasping voice, >especially when a decision was disputed, and for his passion for >anonymity. He shunned public attention. > "The public never notices you until it thinks you've called one >wrong," he used to say. > His most famous standby expression was, "It ain't nothing until I call it." > >-------------------------------------------------------- >GOING TO CAIN'S > > From the NYHT, 14 May 1949, pg. 12, col. 4: > >_P. J. Cain Dies;_ >_Ran Theatrical_ >_Storage House_ >----------------- >_Warehouse Became Famous_ > _on Broadway as "Journey's_ > _End" for Show Failures_ >(...) > Even when some other moving and storage company got the business, >the closing production was known as "going to Cain's." As >attendance began to flag, actors used a wisecrack that became a >tradition: "Next week we're going to Cain's." A critic once wrote >of a poor show: "The audience was so bored you could hear Cain's >trucks carting the show away as each act ended." > >-------------------------------------------------------- >WHEN AN IRRESISTIBLE FORCE MEETS AN IMMOVABLE OBJECT > >"When an irresistable force such as you >Meets an old immovable object like me >You can bet as sure as you live >Something's gotta give, Something's gotta give, >Something's gotta give." >--Johnny Mercer song "Something's Gotta Give," 1957 > > From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 8 November 1949, pg. 24, cols. >5-7 cartoon: > >Now Comes the Immovable Object > >(The candidates are using a lever to move voter apathy--ed.) > >-------------------------------------------------------- >BASEBALL MIDGET (OFF TOPIC) > > Has the information below been recorded? > I recently read an article about Bill Veeck and the midget Eddie >Gaedel. Veeck sent Gaedel to the plate in 1951. > From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 8 August 1949, pg. 17, col. 3: > > _Bill Veeck and the Midget_ >ACCORDING TO Ted Lyons, Red Rolfe's first lieutenant on the Tigers, >the possibility of a midget in major league baseball is not as >ridiculous as it sounds..."For example," says Lyons, "if the >Cleveland Indians had a bases loaded situation, two outs, and one >run needed to win the pennant, I wouldn't be surprised to see Bill >Veeck come up with a midget on his squad for the express purpose of >stepping to the plate and working the pitcher for a base on balls." > >-------------------------------------------------------- >BIG BANG > > I'll end with a bang. Fred Hoyle, who died recently, coined his >"Big Bang" theory in 1950. > From the NYHT, "Matter of Fact" by Joseph and Stewart Alsop, 3 >October 1949, pg. 13, cols. 7-8: > > _Politics of a Big Bang_ -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From douglas at NB.NET Sun Sep 23 14:00:17 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 10:00:17 -0400 Subject: Goopher Feathers & a Big Bang (1949) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >GOOPHER FEATHERS > > The RHHDAS has no entry. > "Horsefeathers" is in the RHHDAS from 1927, coined by T. A. Dorgan. > From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 2 August 1949, pg. 12, col. 2: > >_George Moran,_ >_Of "Two Black_ >_Crows", Is Dead_ >----------------- >_Dies at 67 in Charity Ward;_ > _Late Charles Mack His_ > _Partner in Blackface Act_ >(...) > _Comedian in 1920s_ > George Moran, with the late Charles E. Mack, was one of the men who > set the American cultural pattern of the 1920s. Founded on sure-fire > gags, delivered with a dead-pan drawl and expert timing, their black-face > routine brought them to the top in vaudeville and musical comedy; sold > 7,000,000 phonograph records in homes across the country and blossomed > briefly on radio. > In the process, they made "goopher feathers"--defined by Mack as "the > fuzz offa peaches"--a by-word for nonsense, and launched a string of > anecdotes that remain as echoes of the '30s. Many, like the "goopher > feathers"--were derived from an experiment in farming that was an > inexhaustible subject of Moran and Mack routines. > >(I'll check them out when the Performing Arts Library re-opens, around >October 15--ed.) .... "Goopher"/"goofer" means "magic"/"hex", although the spelling with "ph" may be designed to be reminiscent of "gopher". "Goopher dust" = "magical dust" (probably from a graveyard). Presumably "goopher feathers" originally would have meant feathers used for some type of gris-gris or magical object? -- Doug Wilson From einstein at FROGNET.NET Sun Sep 23 15:09:13 2001 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 11:09:13 -0400 Subject: "foo-foo dust" Message-ID: A family friend who had been a tanker ship's capt. for Texaco used "foo foo stuff" for perfume; I later read--maybe on ADS--that it was homosexual slang for excrement. I suspect that there are a lot of foolish referents... _________________ We are all New Yorkers --Dominique Moisi New York is America. We're all in this together. --Mayor Rudy Guiliani From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 23 15:54:41 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 11:54:41 EDT Subject: Biscotti (1949); Dutch Apple Pie Message-ID: BISCOTTI (continued) The ADS-L archives has two "biscotti" from GOURMET, 1951 and 1955. From Clementine Paddleford's column in the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 12 September 1949, pg. 9, col. 6: Two Italian bakery products have been added to the Bohack line, a pure egg biscuit and anise biscotti, these baked by Primato Egg Biscuit Company. The biscotti, strongly flavored of the anise, looks like zwieback and is very similar. The Italians like these dry, toasted, sweet-flavored bead slices with wine, price for twelve pieces, 25 cents. (You can also serve them with coffee--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- DUTCH APPLE PIE/CAKE (continued) Two more articles on "Dutch Apple Pie." From the NYHT, 26 January 1949, pg. 26, col. 6: DUTCH APPLE PIE--Perfect applie pie timber is jar-packed ready to turn into a nine-inch pastry shell, then on with the "kivver" and into the oven for pie, like they like pie, in the Pennsylvania Dutch country. The same apple slices, firm yet tender under the fork, sweet enough as they are, may be used for cobbler, Brown Betty, for apple grunter. The filling needs no preparation unless you wish to add spices, nutmeg or cinnamon. Buy and try--and be "denkhawr," as the Pennsylvania Dutch say, meaning "thankful." The 1-pound 14-ounce jar is 39 cents at the St. Nicholas Food Center, 755 St. Nicholas Avenue. The makers are C. H. Mussellman Company, of Biglerville, Pa., an old Dutch house, the large packers of apple products in America. The firm has a small vest-pocket size book of Pennsylvania Dutch recipes just off the press, yours for the asking. Nineteen recipes in the collection, every last one using apples. Included are such old favorites as schnitz un knepp, shoo-fly pie, molasses apple scallop--as the Dutch say, "wonderful good." From the NYHT, 17 December 1949, pg. 11, col. 7: BACK TALK--"Let me ruffle your placid calm," bulletins J. Edmund Tonnelier. "It's all about Stouffer's Pennsylvania Dutch pie. I'm not so young, but no quiver of the hand as I write to say my dander is up at both Stouffer and 'Old Stager.' It's a long long way between Cleveland and Pennsylvania Dutch land, even if the Allegheny Mountains did not intervene; and what 'Old Stager' is attempting to describe as pie is, in Pennsylvania Dutch, cake, even though it really is a pie. "I was born in Reading, Pa., and grew up only eighteen miles to the southwest, acquainted with milk pie and molasses pie and Shoo Fly Cake and Pennsylvania Dutch apple cake (pie if you must). This was an open-faced pie with no top and nothing tucked in. It had none of your diced apples, as Stouffer would have you believe. The tin was coated with crust which was shaved off carefully on the edges, then dusted with dry flour. The apples were carefully quartered, were closely packed in a symmetrical design, all with their broad sides up. Then the whole was dredged with plenty of sugar with much cinnamon and oodles of butter, and dusted perhaps with a little more flour--no milk, if you please, it does not belong. Then into the right oven and out. It was juicy and gooey, had flavor. The apples never lost shape or form. Stouffer's don't know it all yet." (FWIW: Two women that I met recently in Poland were from Reading, and they both promised me old cookbooks. I haven't received them--ed.) From pskuhlman at JUNO.COM Sun Sep 23 16:18:17 2001 From: pskuhlman at JUNO.COM (pskuhlman at JUNO.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:18:17 -0400 Subject: Homeland, Motherland Message-ID: I believe"homeland defense" is a military term that has been borrowed in naming the new cabinet level department, but don't know when it originated in the military lexicon. Patricia Kuhlman pskuhlman at juno.com Brooklyn, NY On Sat, 22 Sep 2001 23:44:07 -0400 Thomas Paikeday writes: > I wonder if this use of "homeland" is another example of the "Bush > Dyslexicon," like the use of "infinite" in "Infinite Justice." > > leslie savan wrote: > > > > Gov. Tom Ridge will head the new cabinet-level Office of Homeland > > Security. "Homeland" evokes for me the sound of "Motherland" and, > to a > > lesser degree, "Fatherland." Is there anyone out there who has > detailed > > the history of these words and how, if at all, they've been used > > interchangeably? > From mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU Sun Sep 23 17:18:18 2001 From: mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:18:18 -0500 Subject: Teaching: updating AAVE? Message-ID: I apologize for having taken this long to acknowledge the helpful feedback on my question about approaches to the AAVE verbal system in introductory courses-- it took a while to mull over the ideas. One important point emerges from the discussion so far: we should keep in mind the goals of the particular course and the background of the students. I'm collecting the sources of examples suggested. My memory of the ones that I had read before is that I would've liked to see even more of a variety of structures represented in the examples: how do speakers form negatives and interrogatives with various combinations of "bin" and "d at n"...? There seems to be a general sense on both teach-ling and ADS-L that approaching AAVE verbal issues as a system is important, but excessive terminology (and excessive exposure to complexity??) would do more harm than good, so a reasonable approach might be to focus on a few structures and look at the rest of the system in less detail. Actually, this is similar to what I've been doing so far: I focus on habitual BE and stressed BIN, indicating that they are part of a larger system. I've felt that the existence of the overall system gets lost in this approach, but maybe the key is to give the rest of the system a little more air time, but not too much. (But what to do with "is 'bin d at n' on the test?"...) Probably it would also be better not to rely on standard AmE "paraphrases" or "translations", but to explain meanings visually (time lines?) or by giving enough conversational context, as in Rebecca Wheeler's example. The helpful discussion from the lists has also helped me articulate a point I couldn't quite pin down earlier: highlighting just a few parts of the verbal system may make it difficult to avoid terminology that implicitly assumes standard AmE as a reference point. That is, what will we call "BE omission" or "BE deletion" if the whole system is not under consideration? Thanks to all for your help. -Mai _________________________________ Mai Kuha mkuha at bsuvc.bsu.edu Department of English (765) 285-8410 Ball State University From transedit.h at TELIA.COM Sun Sep 23 18:30:29 2001 From: transedit.h at TELIA.COM (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 20:30:29 +0200 Subject: 24/7 Message-ID: Tom Dalzell in his "Flappers 2 Rappers. American Youth Slang" (1996) states (p 211) that the expression comes from hip-hop slang. No date given, but maybe a thread worth following up. Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 23 23:06:14 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 19:06:14 EDT Subject: Fwd: The Word Detective, October 1 through 12, 2001 Message-ID: The Word Detective is correct that H. T. Webster gave us "milquetoast," but not on the "old New York Herald Tribune" in 1924. It was the New York Tribune. The New York Herald Tribune's life was 1926-1966. I-FORMATION: There's a nice article in the NYHT by Red Smith on the I-formation in football, from Notre Dame coach Frank Leahy (NYHT, 6 November 1951, pg. 27, col. 3, "The 'I' Has It"). Does OED record this? Leahy also used the T-formation. Why does Google disregard my "I"? -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Evan Morris Subject: The Word Detective, October 1 through 12, 2001 Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 16:42:06 -0400 Size: 15071 URL: From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Sep 23 23:39:09 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 19:39:09 EDT Subject: Goopher Feathers & a Big Bang (1949) Message-ID: In a message dated 09/23/2001 9:24:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > I'll end with a bang. Fred Hoyle, who died recently, coined his "Big Bang" > theory in 1950. The "Big Bang" theory was proposed by the Abbe/ George Lemai^tre (that's an acute accent and a circumflex respectively) in 1933. Fred Hoyle was for many years one of the leading opponents of the Big Bang theory. He and Herman Bondi and Thomas Gold of Cambridge University proposed the rival "Steady State" theory in 1948. I have no information on when the name "Big Bang" was applied to Lemai^tre's theory. You may be interested to know that the PC Police (when did that phrase originate?) are after "Big Bang", claiming it is a sexist name. Another interesting story about the Big Bang Theory concerns a variation of it proposed in a paper by George Gamow, Ralph A. Alpher, and Hans Bethe. I have no idea whether this story be true, but it is claimed that Bethe had nothing to do with the paper---his name was attached to it by Gamow with malice aforethought, so that it could be called the "Alpher-Bethe-Gamow" theory. According to my father, the theory went on the rocks and Bethe announced that he was going to change his name to Zacharias. James A. Landau Systems Engineer FAA Technical Center (ACT-350/BCI) Atlantic City Airport NJ 08405 USA From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sun Sep 23 23:33:21 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 19:33:21 -0400 Subject: "foo-foo dust" In-Reply-To: <00a901c14441$b51faec0$620703d8@dbergdah1> Message-ID: David Bergdahl said: >A family friend who had been a tanker ship's capt. for Texaco used "foo foo >stuff" for perfume; I later read--maybe on ADS--that it was homosexual slang >for excrement. I suspect >that there are a lot of foolish referents... Is this related to "frou-frou" for something that's excessively frilly? (For me, personally, perfume counts here...) -- Alice Faber tel. (203) 865-6163 Haskins Laboratories fax (203) 865-8963 270 Crown St faber at haskins.yale.edu New Haven, CT 06511 afaber at wesleyan.edu From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Sep 23 23:49:14 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 19:49:14 EDT Subject: Macadamizing (1824); Marihuana/Mary Anna (1916) and more Message-ID: In a message dated 09/22/2001 8:01:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > "Extranjeros" (for "gringo") is on pages 242 and 294. "Extranjero" is simply the Spanish word for "foreigner". "Gringo" is a swear-word in New World Spanish, very much like the "N-word" in US English or "Kaffir" in South Africa. - Jim Landau From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Sep 24 02:27:14 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:27:14 -0400 Subject: Mexican Strawberry; La Mordida Message-ID: Mike Salovesh's description of the interconnectedness of official & social roles in Mexico reminds me of the world in which Robert Campbell's sewers inspector, Jimmy Flannery, operates in Chicago's wards. A. Murie From mnewman at QC.EDU Mon Sep 24 12:00:24 2001 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:00:24 -0400 Subject: ["yo" examples] In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010921110815.00b20380@nb.net> Message-ID: Doug Wilson makes a good case that 'yo' essentially replaces 'hey' for my informants. >-think in, in um, yo any type of music ... = thinkin' in, um -- hey -- any type of music ... [?] >... like yo, you met Malik? = ... like, 'Hey, you met Malik?' I'm less confident in his assertion about 'you know.' First, the kids frequently use a reduced form of you know what I mean, which "Kareem" transcribes as 'nought I mean.' >... whereas I speak it so I can't really say yo. Looks as though it might be M. Salovesh's "y'know". [I note "whereas": I use it like this but some find it peculiar (pretentious?).] >... I am sayin, breakin is cool yo. Looks like "y'know" again. Not that they couldn't use both forms, but the fact that 'yo' is downstressed and both 'nought I mean' is 'ya know' are more heavily stressed implies some kind of different analysis. Even if they are functional equivalents, what is interesting linguistically with 'yo' is that in the second case is that there is a particle of some kind being used where no particle was ever used before, which is a morphosyntactic change. -- Michael Newman Assistant Professor of Applied Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Sep 24 12:20:10 2001 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:20:10 -0400 Subject: "foo-foo dust" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alice, Me too. I bet this was "really" frou-frou. dInIs (who, as a child, thought all perfume, except paprika, was frou-frou) >David Bergdahl said: >>A family friend who had been a tanker ship's capt. for Texaco used "foo foo >>stuff" for perfume; I later read--maybe on ADS--that it was homosexual slang >>for excrement. I suspect >>that there are a lot of foolish referents... > >Is this related to "frou-frou" for something that's excessively frilly? >(For me, personally, perfume counts here...) >-- >Alice Faber tel. (203) 865-6163 >Haskins Laboratories fax (203) 865-8963 >270 Crown St faber at haskins.yale.edu >New Haven, CT 06511 afaber at wesleyan.edu -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 24 13:18:02 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:18:02 EDT Subject: Ivy League Message-ID: IVY LEAGUE This obituary that I found yesterday intrigues me. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 18 November 1951, pg. 70, col. 6: _George Trevor,_ _Sports Writer, 59_ ------------------ _Authority on Ivy League_ _Football and Golfing_ PORT CHESTER, N. Y., Nov. 17.--George S. Trevor, fifty-nine, sports writer on the former "New York Sun" for twenty-three years, died today at his home, 27 Claremont Avenue. Born In Cooperstown, N. Y., Mr. Trevor attended the Browning School in New York, and was graduated from Yale University in 1915. He worked for "The Brooklyn Eagle" from 1922 to 1926, as a sports feature writer, transferring to "The Sun" in 1928. Mr. Trevor was known as an authority on Ivy League football, and an enthusiastic Yale fan. (Several years ago, I found a "Miss Manhattan" Audrey Munson article from the New York Sun, in the Columbia University Library. When I checked yesterday, the library doesn't have the New York Sun. Curious. I'll check the NYPL in about an hour--ed.) From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM Mon Sep 24 13:33:57 2001 From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Pearsons, Enid) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:33:57 -0400 Subject: "on the may"--typo for "on the way" Message-ID: Typo was just what I was thinking...or rather, thinko or hearo. Could this piece have been dictated over the phone to someone who heard "on the menu" (perhaps pronounced /'menju/) as "...may"? OK, it's a wild guess, but it's one more possibility in that context. "Way" is pretty appealing, too. Enid Enid Pearsons Senior Editor Random House Reference 280 Park Avenue New York, NY 10017 212-572-4916 (voice) 212-572-4997 (fax) > -----Original Message----- > From: Gerald Cohen [mailto:gcohen at UMR.EDU] > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 8:09 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "on the may"--typo for "on the way" > > > My thanx to Frank Abate and Douglas Wilson for their attempts to > unravel "on the may." Since this item doesn't ring a bell with the > ads-l list, and since there is no repeat of the item in all the other > 1913 baseball articles I've read, I think I see the solution: "may" > here is a typo for "way." The baseball popularity contest will be the > hottest thing coming down the pike ("on the way") in a few weeks. > > >Would anyone have any idea what "on the may" means in the quote below > >(newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_ April 22, 1913, p.16/2-3; title: > >"Tub and Del Are Leading"): > > > > 'The baseball popularity contest is growing hotter. It is going > >to get hotter and hotter. It will be the hottest thing on the may in > >a few more weeks. It can't get too hot for The Bulletin. The more > >votes that are polled for the various players of the Pacific Coast > >League the hotter it will be. Let the "heat" flow. ...' > > ---Gerald Cohen > From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Mon Sep 24 13:50:10 2001 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:50:10 -0400 Subject: ..Polish victory lap.. Message-ID: Today's sports pages (24 SEPT 2001) carried an item about the winner of a race at Dover (Delaware) Downs International Speedway. It was noted that the winner "drove the famed 'Polish victory lap'". A search of the web finds the following site which identifies the Polish Victory Lap as being a calculated creation of Alan Kulwicki, in ~1988. http://www.frontstretch.com/varner/varner0403.htm Sorry for any redundancy of information for those who avidly follow NASCAR events, but this is something of a new phrase for me. George Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 24 14:06:19 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:06:19 EDT Subject: Texas Pecan Cake; Bake-Off & Away We Go! Message-ID: BAKE-OFF: The Pillsbury web site says it began in 1949 and was dubbed this almost immediately. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 12 December 1951, pg. 31, col. 1, "...her Starlight Double Delight Chocolate Cake that won the grand prize in the Pillsbury Mills third national bake-off contest..." BEST-DRESSED LIST: NYHT, 11 December 1951, pg. 26, col. 2, "In 1928 he (Emil Hartman, Fashion Academy founder--ed.) inaugurated his annual ritual of giving awards to the year's ten best-dressed American women who wore American clothes." GETTING THERE IS HALF THE FUN!: I've seen this in railroad ads. From THIS WEEK, NYHT, 25 November 1951, pg. 27, it's in a full-page ad for Cunard ships. "--AND AWAY WE GO!": Jackie Gleason used this. It's a cartoon caption in the NYHT, 28 October 1951, section 2, pg. 5, cols. 3-4. WONDER WEAPONS: Pre-Star Wars term. "Concerning Wonder Weapons" is the the topic of Joseph Alsop's column in the NYHT, 21 September 1951, pg. 21, cols. 7-8. THEY ALL CAME TO PLAY: This horrible sports cliche is the breaker in Red Smith's column, NYHT, 11 October 1951, pg. 33, col. 5. I'M DUBIOUS: From a review of TWO-A-DAY VAUDEVILLE with Judy Garland, NYHT, 17 Octboer 1951, pg. 19, col. 5: Among the best known lines in the American theater are Smith & Dale's preamble to "Dr. Kronkheit": "I am the doctor." Smith "I'm dubious." Dale "Glad to meet you, Mr. Dubious," says Smith. -------------------------------------------------------- TEXAS PECAN CAKE This continues "pecan" coverage, for DARE, Barnhardt, whomever. From the NYHT, 4 September 1951, pg. 22, col. 6: _Canned Texas Pecan Cake Arrives This Week_ ------------------------------ _Colorful Creation of Woman_ _Who's Made It a Career_ _Is Ideal as Quick Dessert_ By Clementine Paddleford Texas pecan cake is due this week in New York CIty stores, a cake from Sherman, Tex., Eunice King's Kitchen, this cake her career. Miss King was a home demonstration agent in Grayson County during the early years of the war when quite unexpectedly she found herself catapulted into business. One of the projects she had set up for her women was the preparation of foods for overseas shipment, and part of the demonstration was the canning of cake. Immediately she received so many orders for pecan cakes in the can she decided to resign her job and bake cakes commercially. It was in 1944 that she opened a shop in her own house preparing overseas foods. Almost immediately the business expanded to a point where it couldn't be handled at home, so Miss King set up a kitchen just for cake baking. Today the work requires two assistants and five in the rush periods. Texas pecan cake was one of Miss King's specialties during a three-year period when she operated a tea room. She had taken a basic cake recipe and added good things, pecans, a variety of mixed fruits and made a delicious dessert loaf that could be used either as cake or heated and sauced as a pudding. It's a pretty thing of rich ginger brown sparkling with color. It has a homemade taste and should have, for it is mixed in small quantities for that very purpose and made of all fresh and the best materials. It turns fromthe can in a neat roll to slice and pass with a frozen dessert salad or with ambrosia, a rich bite to enjoy with iced tea or coffee. It's one of those "any time" cakes, a best bet for dessert for unexpected company. Turn the cake from the tin to use as a pudding and top with whipped cream or ice cream. Chill the tin before opening and the cake will slip out neat and easy and slice without crumbling, twelve slices usually from the one-pound roll. We met the cake first in Dallas three years ago, where it was selling in the grocery department of the Nieman-Marcus Company. Later it was met on menus in diners of trains out of Chicago, St. Louis, Denver. Now coming to sell at B. Altman's and Charles & Co., 340 Madison, and the Vendome Table Delicacies, 415 Madison, the retail price for the 1-pound 2-ounce tin $1,60 to $1.75. From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Mon Sep 24 14:49:11 2001 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:49:11 -0500 Subject: ..Polish victory lap.. Message-ID: Tony Adomowitz and some one who's name escapes at the present,(Oscer Kolofky?) formed the PRDA Polish Race Drivers Association, patches were worn in your armpit and they were doing reverse victory laps in the '60's. GSCole wrote: > > Today's sports pages (24 SEPT 2001) carried an item about the winner of > a race at Dover (Delaware) Downs International Speedway. It was noted > that the winner "drove the famed 'Polish victory lap'". > > A search of the web finds the following site which identifies the Polish > Victory Lap as being a calculated creation of Alan Kulwicki, in ~1988. > > http://www.frontstretch.com/varner/varner0403.htm > > Sorry for any redundancy of information for those who avidly follow > NASCAR events, but this is something of a new phrase for me. > > George Cole > gscole at ark.ship.edu > Shippensburg University From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Sep 24 15:04:39 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:04:39 -0400 Subject: FW: Homeland, Motherland Message-ID: I can't vouch for the military use suggested, but "homeland" did make me think of the UK Home Guard of WWII, which was the domestically based military for defense/defence of the UK itself, in case of invasion or other incursion. OED shows uses of "homeland" back into the 17th century. It connotes one's native land along with the "warm" overtones of the word "home", and long has. I would say that "homeland security" is, then, simply a combination of two established words, in keeping with the regular rules of English. And the word choice seems to me appropriate to the application. It has been noted that the White House or the Pentagon (whichever) backed away from "Infinite Justice" when it was pointed out that Islam teaches that such is only from Allah. You would have hoped that they had picked up on that before issuing the code word, but at least they changed their minds quickly. It was also noted that Bush has backed away from some ill-chosen terms, like referring to the hijackers as "folks" (in one of his earliest statements on Sept 11), and alluding to the Old West with "Wanted Dead or Alive" re bin Laden. His own "natural language" is frequently subject to derision, as has often been noted. On the other hand, his speech last week to Congress was very measured, with simple words and brief, declarative sentences. He has a very good speechwriter who wrote to the occasion in words well-suited to the speaker, and Bush delivered it well, I felt. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of pskuhlman at JUNO.COM Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 12:18 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Homeland, Motherland I believe"homeland defense" is a military term that has been borrowed in naming the new cabinet level department, but don't know when it originated in the military lexicon. Patricia Kuhlman pskuhlman at juno.com Brooklyn, NY On Sat, 22 Sep 2001 23:44:07 -0400 Thomas Paikeday writes: > I wonder if this use of "homeland" is another example of the "Bush > Dyslexicon," like the use of "infinite" in "Infinite Justice." > > leslie savan wrote: > > > > Gov. Tom Ridge will head the new cabinet-level Office of Homeland > > Security. "Homeland" evokes for me the sound of "Motherland" and, > to a > > lesser degree, "Fatherland." Is there anyone out there who has > detailed > > the history of these words and how, if at all, they've been used > > interchangeably? > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Sep 24 16:10:43 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 12:10:43 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Searching Press Releases Message-ID: This message comes to me from the labor-and-union-history librarian here at NYU. The database may be of use for the study of political and social terms and idioms. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Andrew H. Lee" Subject: Searching Press Releases Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:48:02 -0400 Size: 2062 URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 24 17:01:58 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:01:58 EDT Subject: "Mr. Inside and Mr. Outside" Message-ID: For the Yalies on the list. Maybe Yale has info on this writer? The NEW YORK TIMES obituary of George S. Trevor does _NOT_ state that he coined "Ivy League," but his columns are worth looking at. From 18 November 1951, pg. 90, col. 3: A graduate of Yale, Mr. Trevor became one of the country's leading authorities on Ivy League football. He recently was introduced to the Yale squad by its coach, Herman Hickman, as "the man who has done more than anyone else for Yale football." (...) He was generally credited with creating the catch phrase, "Mr. Inside and Mr. Outside," to describe the two Army backfield stars, "Doc" Blanchard and Glenn Davis. (...) Mr. Trevor was a former president of the New York Football Writers Association, the Track and Field Writers Assoication and the Touchdown Club of New York. From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Mon Sep 24 17:08:37 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:08:37 -0400 Subject: More Frenchified? Message-ID: (For the sake of those who rely on automated message threading I am resisting the temptation to change the subject line to "You want Frenchified with that?", or possibly "Frenchific(a)tion".) >>>>> [Rima McKinzey] >On the phone to the reservation person for the Westin Hotel chain, I >asked if she knew how one got from the airport to the hotel in >question. She said, several times and very clearly, that I'd have to >talk to the "conseeAIR." > >Could this be because this sounds more French than concierge? It's a >new one for me. [Larry Horn] I'm sure it is. The hyper-Frenchification I've noticed most often is "COO D'GRAH" for coup de grace. The rule seems to be "don't pronounce the last consonant", period. At least in your case the reservation person might have had extra motivation for avoiding the final -rzh cluster, but there's certainly no similar excuse for avoiding [gras]. <<<<< As long as I have known her (since 1968) my wife has tended to apply this rule, which I call "French final consonant deletion". "Coup de gra^ce" ['ku d@ 'gra] is the instantiation I hear from her most often. I think we can treat it as a form of hypercorrection. I know she had at least one incompetent French teacher in high school, but whatever the cause, she seems to have internalized the French rule "a final consonant letter is silent unless it's c,r,f,l, or q" as "drop the final consonant sound that you think belongs there" All unconsciously, of course. She knows better, but it's down in her phonology where she can't grab it and wring its neck. Some misunderstood form of the actual rule of thumb is (in my totally wild-guess opinion) probably the best known "fact" of French pronunciation to Americans, and often the only one. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Mon Sep 24 17:18:39 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:18:39 -0400 Subject: elope Message-ID: Thomas Paikeday writes: >>>>> Is "elope" in the old sense of "escape" common in contemporary English? All the examples in my database are in the sense of "run away together to get married," as in "Dick eloped with Jane" and "They eloped." <<<<< Not in general use for 'escape', no. But in mental hospitals it is a common term for 'go AWOL, leave without permission'. It is not restricted to 'escape'-- which I would define for this purpose as 'leave without permission intending not to return'-- but can be used for, e.g., going out overnight without permission, with the intention of coming back the next day. Whether or not the patient actually does return is IMHO outside the semantic scope of the verb. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Sep 24 05:42:09 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:42:09 +0800 Subject: Texas Pecan Cake In-Reply-To: <68.14950dc7.28e097dc@aol.com> Message-ID: At 10:06 AM -0400 9/24/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >-------------------------------------------------------- >TEXAS PECAN CAKE > > This continues "pecan" coverage, for DARE, Barnhardt, whomever. > From the NYHT, 4 September 1951, pg. 22, col. 6: > >_Canned Texas Pecan Cake Arrives This Week_ >------------------------------ >_Colorful Creation of Woman_ > _Who's Made It a Career_ > _Is Ideal as Quick Dessert_ >By Clementine Paddleford > Texas pecan cake is due this week in New York CIty stores, a cake >from Sherman, Tex., Eunice King's Kitchen, this cake her career. >... We met the cake first in Dallas three years ago, where it was >selling in the grocery department of the Nieman-Marcus Company... ...and probably for less than those $20,000 chocolate chip cookies Neiman-Marcus has since become known for l From jmiller at FRANKLINCOLLEGE.EDU Mon Sep 24 18:43:47 2001 From: jmiller at FRANKLINCOLLEGE.EDU (Miller, Jerry) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:43:47 -0500 Subject: ..Polish victory lap.. Message-ID: I would just add, before someone asks, that the naming of the clockwise victory lap was not a creation of "Polish humor" in the usual, politically incorrect sense. Kulwicki, who was of Polish descent, did make it something of a joke against himself when he did it. But it is now quite serious as a tribute to Kulwicki, who, after winning the 1992 NASCAR championship, was killed in a plane crash. Many race winners did the reverse lap in his memory in the months after his death, and now it seems to have been revived, still in his honor (the "frontstretch" Web site below includes the comments of Rusty Wallace, who noted that after he bypassed the currently common post-victory "doughnuts" and/or "burnouts" for a Polish victory lap recently). And now you know the rest of the story (whether you wanted it or not). Jerry Miller jmiller at franklincollege.edu > -----Original Message----- > From: GSCole [SMTP:gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU] > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 8:50 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: ..Polish victory lap.. > > Today's sports pages (24 SEPT 2001) carried an item about the winner of > a race at Dover (Delaware) Downs International Speedway. It was noted > that the winner "drove the famed 'Polish victory lap'". > > A search of the web finds the following site which identifies the Polish > Victory Lap as being a calculated creation of Alan Kulwicki, in ~1988. > > http://www.frontstretch.com/varner/varner0403.htm > > Sorry for any redundancy of information for those who avidly follow > NASCAR events, but this is something of a new phrase for me. > > George Cole > gscole at ark.ship.edu > Shippensburg University From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 24 19:06:05 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 15:06:05 EDT Subject: Deke (1935) Message-ID: OED has 1960 and 1961. I was looking for "Ivy League," but don't tell anybody that. From the NEW YORK SUN, 3 January 1935, Frank Graham's sports column (this one about pro hockey), pg. 31, col. 1: _It Seems He Caught Normie "Deking."_ (...) "Aw," said the little fellow, "I caught you deking, else I wouldn't have been able to hit you like that. "How do you spell deking? Gee, I don't know. I never saw it in print. I guess it's d-e-k-i-n-g. Don't you know what it means? Well, when a fellow is coming at you with the rubber and he tries to get you to make your move first by shifting his feet or swaying his body, or going like this with his stick, you say he is deking. When a fellow is deking it's a cinch to knock him down because the chances are he has one foot off the ice and is off balance." From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Sep 24 20:42:58 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 16:42:58 -0400 Subject: How do you say "barn"? Message-ID: A discussion of Boston accents from the Boston Globe: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/252/metro/How_do_you_say_Barn_+.shtml 'You've got to realize there is no `Boston accent'; there are several Boston accents,'' Connolly says. ''Charlestown and Somerville talk very differently from people in Dorchester. Boston English as spoken in the North End is very different from that spoken in South Boston.'' Connolly tested his theory last weekend while roaming Fenway Park, which he called possibly the best dialect laboratory in the city. In the stands before a game, Connolly found examples of what he described as four major strains of Boston speech. To Connolly, there's the ''southern Boston'' accent, born in neighborhoods such as South Boston, Dorchester, and Roxbury; a ''northwest'' sound, rooted in Cambridge and Somerville; a ''northeast'' accent, formed in East Boston and the North End; and the hoary Brahmin dialect from the Back Bay and Beacon Hill. -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Sep 24 22:38:49 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:38:49 -0400 Subject: How do you say "barn"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We've got to assume Connolly has not seen American Tongues? Or he would have known that his "theory" was propounded a long time ago. dInIs >A discussion of Boston accents from the Boston Globe: > >http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/252/metro/How_do_you_say_Barn_+.shtml > >'You've got to realize there is no `Boston accent'; there are several Boston >accents,'' Connolly says. ''Charlestown and Somerville talk very differently >from people in Dorchester. Boston English as spoken in the North End is very >different from that spoken in South Boston.'' > >Connolly tested his theory last weekend while roaming Fenway Park, which he >called possibly the best dialect laboratory in the city. In the stands >before a game, Connolly found examples of what he described as four major >strains of Boston speech. > >To Connolly, there's the ''southern Boston'' accent, born in neighborhoods >such as South Boston, Dorchester, and Roxbury; a ''northwest'' sound, rooted >in Cambridge and Somerville; a ''northeast'' accent, formed in East Boston >and the North End; and the hoary Brahmin dialect from the Back Bay and >Beacon Hill. > >-- > >Grant Barrett >gbarrett at worldnewyork.org >http://www.worldnewyork.org/ >New York Loves You Back -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 24 23:05:23 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:05:23 EDT Subject: Bonanza (1829) Message-ID: TRAVELS IN THE INTERIOR OF MEXICO IN 1825, 1826, 1827 & 1828 by Lieut. R. W. H. Harvey Henry Colburn and Richard Bentley, London 1829 Pg. 78: ...the mine, _it is said_, will be shortly in "bonanza" (pay a large profit)! ("Bonanza" is also used on page 145...OED, M-W have 1840s--ed.) Pg. 460: The neighboring mountains abound with Mexcal, which makes a very strong liquor; and although Don Manuel has only two small and very imperfect stills, they brings him in a profit of thirty dollars a day throughout the year. It may perhaps be well to describe the manner in which liquor is made from the Mexcal, which is a species of socotrine aloe. (...) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 24 23:35:33 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:35:33 EDT Subject: Racket Slang (NY Sun, 1935) Message-ID: From the NEW YORK SUN, 19 February 1935, pg. 28, col. 1: _Racket Slang Explains Itself_ _Odd Phrases That Are Ingeniously Devised to Trap_ _the Unwary Customer._ The slang of gangsters is treated more with amusement than personal interest by the average man, who sees in it no practical application to his own affairs. The chance that he will ever be taken for a ride is remote. But the commercial underworld has a language of its own that is worth learning. The man who understands it has some insurance against the risks of losing his money on bad merchandise or financial rackets. Living on the fringe of legitimate trade are merchants and salesmen who find profit in ignoring copybook ethics. With special words and phrases they can even discuss the details of the crime in the presence of a sucker without alarming him. To the prospective buyer of an automobile from a disreputable second-hand dealer there might seem to be nothing sinister in a remark about "hushing him $100 on the smacko," but this should be the signal to leave in a hurry. A smacko is a badly wrecked car that has been rebuilt. The process of bushing is to get the customer "in the bag for a d. p." (signing up with a down payment), and then, when the final contract is to be signed, to raise the price above that which was set originally. The price-raising is not disclosed until after the dealer has picked up the original receipt, leaving the buyer with no evidence of either the agreed price or more important, the down payment. The chances of getting the $100 back therefore, are negligible, and the car at the new price is obviously no bargain. "Iron" is the dealer's name for an obsolete model. "Cuffing" or "macing" a car is the term for a purchase by the dealer from an individual upon a small cash payment and a series of notes which he has no intention of meeting. Better Business Bureuas have developed their own slang for some common rackets. The "residence dealer" is a retailer who pretends to be selling his personal goods from his home, which would be a "stuffed flat." "Hearse chasers" are vultures who prey on the estate or relatives of dead men by presenting false claims or selling biographies at exorbitant prices or in dozens of other ways. A "pass-the-hat society" is an insurance company that collects death benefits for members by assessment of survivors. "Puff sheets" are magazines generally having a name closely resembling some reputable publication but depending upon the sale of extra copies to gullible business men who are written up in extravagent phrases or praise. "Mug books" serve a similar function but specialize in photographs. "Charity rackets" are merchandizing or soliciting schemes depending upon an appeal to the pity of the customers, whether they are buying goods supposed to be for the benefit of an orphanage or contributing to a fake synagogue. The sucker has many names among the crooks. "Lily," "mug," "pushover," and "mooch" are the most common. After a "pushover" has been sold he is a "wrap-up." Real estate developers use the "lunch and lecture" system, carrying the prospects by bus or train to the property, feeding them and subjecting them to a talk by a "spieler." Checks are "maps." Financial racketeers have been less active since the securities act of 1933 and securities exchange act of 1934 were passed, but plenty of "dynamiters" (high pressure salesmen of stock) are still out of jail. The "dynamiter" may use a "bird dog," a tout who furnishes (Col. 2--ed.) prospects and talks up the securities among his acquaintances; a "coxy," an inexperiences salesman good for small sales; a "boiler room," in which a group of salesmen work by telephone, disregarding expense of long distance talks and probably settling bills every day; a "tip sheet," a phony financial publication to boost stock issues, and a "reloader," who can sell more stock to a sucker who already has made a small investment. In the "one-call racket" a prospect is dropped unless he can be sold on the first visit. The "dynamiter" may be a "hundred percenter" or a "converter," one who trades something worthless for a marketable security previously owned by the sucker. To establish confidence the racketeer may sell a good stock first and induce an exchange for worthless paper. This is the "sell-and-switch" method. The "razz" is the selling talk. An "advance fee" operator is an underwriter who gets money from the issuer of securities before he sells them. "Front money" is advance commission to a salesman. "Hot stuff" is the literature effective in selling. A "kit" is a fancy portfolio to help the salesman. It may include a letter purporting to be from bankers approving the deal or the sponsors. "Scenery," a board of directors with impressive names, is helpful. The "reloader" uses the same term for dividend checks to be waved under the eyes of prospective victims. Complaints that stir up the "three B's" (Better Business Bureau), or the "P. O." (post office inspectors), or "Sec" are "squawks." The most important interruption tothe activity of financial racketeers is "tagging," or indictment. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 24 23:37:19 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:37:19 EDT Subject: Bonanza (1829) Message-ID: Both should read "Mezcal." From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Sep 24 13:16:24 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 21:16:24 +0800 Subject: How do you say "barn"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:38 PM -0400 9/24/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >We've got to assume Connolly has not seen American Tongues? Or he >would have known that his "theory" was propounded a long time ago. Take the words right out of my mouth (again), will you. I quite like the sequence where the screen splits in four, then sixteen, then 64, each illustrating (we presume--it's a bit hard to tell) a different Boston accent. At least Brahmin, Dorchester, Roxbury and North End are well represented in the scene. LH >>A discussion of Boston accents from the Boston Globe: >> >>http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/252/metro/How_do_you_say_Barn_+.shtml >> >>'You've got to realize there is no `Boston accent'; there are several Boston >>accents,'' Connolly says. ''Charlestown and Somerville talk very differently >>from people in Dorchester. Boston English as spoken in the North End is very >>different from that spoken in South Boston.'' >> >>Connolly tested his theory last weekend while roaming Fenway Park, which he >>called possibly the best dialect laboratory in the city. In the stands >>before a game, Connolly found examples of what he described as four major >>strains of Boston speech. >> >>To Connolly, there's the ''southern Boston'' accent, born in neighborhoods >>such as South Boston, Dorchester, and Roxbury; a ''northwest'' sound, rooted >>in Cambridge and Somerville; a ''northeast'' accent, formed in East Boston >>and the North End; and the hoary Brahmin dialect from the Back Bay and >>Beacon Hill. >> >>-- >> >>Grant Barrett >>gbarrett at worldnewyork.org >>http://www.worldnewyork.org/ >>New York Loves You Back > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >Department of Linguistics and Languages >Michigan State University >East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA >preston at pilot.msu.edu >Office: (517)353-0740 >Fax: (517)432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Sep 24 14:10:56 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 22:10:56 +0800 Subject: Deke (1935) In-Reply-To: <11a.47e4fcf.28e0de1d@aol.com> Message-ID: At 3:06 PM -0400 9/24/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > OED has 1960 and 1961. I was looking for "Ivy League," but don't >tell anybody that. > From the NEW YORK SUN, 3 January 1935, Frank Graham's sports >column (this one about pro hockey), pg. 31, col. 1: > > _It Seems He Caught Normie "Deking."_ >(...) > "Aw," said the little fellow, "I caught you deking, else I >wouldn't have been able to hit you like that. > "How do you spell deking? Gee, I don't know. I never saw it in >print. I guess it's d-e-k-i-n-g. Don't you know what it means? >Well, when a fellow is coming at you with the rubber and he tries to >get you to make your move first by shifting his feet or swaying his >body, or going like this with his stick, you say he is deking. When >a fellow is deking it's a cinch to knock him down because the >chances are he has one foot off the ice and is off balance." Wow. RHHDAS doesn't have anything for this "deke" or the associated noun any earlier than 1960 (given as a Canadianism, of course also in a hockey context), so Barry's 1935 (1935?) find is very impressive. The term is still used quite freely in sports contexts, the locus classicus being for a crucial moment in the 1991 World Series when the then rookie second baseman Chuck Knoblauch of the Minnesota Twins deked Atlanta Braves baserunner Lonnie Smith out of his...well, uniform on a hit to the wall on which Smith could have easily scored what would have been the winning (and only) run in the seventh and final game. Knoblauch pretended to be about to field a throw at second base when the ball was actually rolling around in (if memory serves) deep left field. The well and truly deked Smith slid into third and the game went into extra innings, the Twins finally winning the game 1-0 in the 10th and with it the Series.) The origin is plausibly taken in RHHDAS to be a clip from "decoy" attested earlier in hunters' lingo, and a quote is included from Hemingway (1950) in which "deke" refers literally to a duck decoy. If the athletes' "deke" was really spawned by an earlier hunters' "deke" (for the actual decoy), there should be pre-1935 cites for the latter. Or perhaps they both developed independently as clips from "decoy", with the sports nominal and verbal "deke" getting there first. Then there are the capital-D Dekes, the frat boys from DKE, but there's no relation here. The earliest cite for that Deke (Yale, 1871) spells it as "Deak" and has this puzzling (to me) remark: "DKE men are often called 'Deaks' by the others, but as this word is somewhat akin to an epithet it is not employed in their presence". I can't figure out if the implication was that there's a taboo association (but with what epithet that sounds like it?) or that it's just used as a semi-slur. There is evidently a bit of a reputation problem; Mailer's Naked and the Dead has a reference cited here to "a Cornell man, a Deke, a perfect asshole." larry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Sep 25 02:39:26 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 22:39:26 -0400 Subject: infinite Message-ID: Besides Muslims, I think even practising Catholics like me would be taken aback by Bush's use of "infinite." It smacks of infinite arrogance. Idiomatically, as we know, "infinite" primarily goes with nouns like "being, compassion, knowledge, love, mercy, perfection, wisdom," etc., all of which refer to the Almighty. Secondarily, "infinite" (in the sense of "unlimited") is used to modify nouns like "detail, number, patience, possibilities, range, variety," etc. In technical usage, they speak of "infinite baffles, gas valves, heat settings," etc. Compare also the use of the word in mathematics, music, and grammar. I get the impression that Bush and Co. blamed Islamic teachings as an easy escape from a situation that is messy not only theologically but also idiomatically. But there is no denying the speech, whoever wrote it, was superb. > It has been noted that the White House or the Pentagon (whichever) backed > away from "Infinite Justice" when it was pointed out that Islam teaches that > such is only from Allah. You would have hoped that they had picked up on > that before issuing the code word, but at least they changed their minds > quickly. > > From Davidhwaet at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 03:56:03 2001 From: Davidhwaet at AOL.COM (David Carlson) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 23:56:03 EDT Subject: How do you say "barn"? Message-ID: All of this speculation about the number of Boston accents demonstrates that Fred Cassidy was correct when he said, "It all depends on how you want to slice the pie." or words to that effect. American Tongues did well in some of its slices, and others begin the slice at Route 128. I'm certain someone could find one at Upham's Corner or Codman Square. And if you listen carefully you can find it many miles away from Fenway Park. Thanks, Fred. David R. Carlson Amherst MA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 04:14:50 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 00:14:50 EDT Subject: Deke (1935) Message-ID: In a message dated 9/24/2001 10:12:27 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << >Well, when a fellow is coming at you with the rubber and he tries to >get you to make your move first by shifting his feet or swaying his >body, or going like this with his stick, you say he is deking. >> At least the fellow wants to play safe. From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Sep 25 12:07:23 2001 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:07:23 -0400 Subject: Deke (1935) In-Reply-To: <10.12fddc1e.28e15eba@aol.com> Message-ID: I am perhaps coming to this discussion late and I apologize if this information has already been given, but when I frequented the Hamilton (Ontario) area in the late 60's, "deke" was not exclusively used in hockey (if that is the game described above - hard for a Louisvillian to tell). It meant any slight direction change. For example, I got instructions from a local one day to "go down this road a bit and then deke left," the kind of little turn you make when there's a "jog" in the road. dInIs >In a message dated 9/24/2001 10:12:27 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > ><< >Well, when a fellow is coming at you with the rubber and he tries to >>get you to make your move first by shifting his feet or swaying his >>body, or going like this with his stick, you say he is deking. >> > >At least the fellow wants to play safe. -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 25 01:36:01 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:36:01 +0800 Subject: Deke (1935) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:07 AM -0400 9/25/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >I am perhaps coming to this discussion late and I apologize if this >information has already been given, but when I frequented the >Hamilton (Ontario) area in the late 60's, "deke" was not exclusively >used in hockey (if that is the game described above - hard for a >Louisvillian to tell). It meant any slight direction change. For >example, I got instructions from a local one day to "go down this >road a bit and then deke left," the kind of little turn you make when >there's a "jog" in the road. > >dInIs I agree that by the late 60's a deke could be any feinting move of this sort, whether or not the deker intended to deceive the dekee (as in the hockey/basketball/football/baseball/boxing examples) or simply for the "slight direction change" where it might be argued the road (designer) was trying to deke you (out). But if the derivation from "decoy" is right, it would make sense that the earliest uses would be from the sporting world (including the hunting examples where the dekees are ducks). I don't know if there are any examples of deke as a verb in the hunting context, though. larry From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Tue Sep 25 14:05:01 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:05:01 -0400 Subject: How do you say "barn"? Message-ID: I read the characterization of "his theory" to be the reporter's, not necessarily Connolly's. John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis R. Preston [SMTP:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 6:39 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: How do you say "barn"? > > We've got to assume Connolly has not seen American Tongues? Or he > would have known that his "theory" was propounded a long time ago. > > dInIs > > >A discussion of Boston accents from the Boston Globe: > > > >http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/252/metro/How_do_you_say_Barn_+.shtml > > > >Connolly tested his theory last weekend while roaming Fenway Park, which > he > >called possibly the best dialect laboratory in the city. In the stands > >before a game, Connolly found examples of what he described as four major > >strains of Boston speech. > > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 14:23:11 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:23:11 EDT Subject: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) Message-ID: From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 25 January 1947, pg. 11, col. 7: _Pizzas of Cheese and Sausage_ _Baked Brown in Sally's Oven_ ---------------------------- _Golden Stuffed Pies Are_ _Baked to Order in This_ _East Harlem Hideaway_ By Clementine Paddleford Let's do something different tonight. And why not? Don't you get bored with the smart restaurant-type meal, each just like the other? Heaven knows that we do. Now is the moment to strike out for Sally's at 2217 First Avenue, between 113th and 114th Streets, location East Harlem, in the heart of Little Italy. The pizzas you'll love and ditto for Sally, and ditto for Sally's wife, Anna. Quaff the red wine; eat pizza pie. Stay past your bed time. No weariness tomorrow, for you have had fun. Just for this evening be a young sprout again. Pizza, that's the great thing. Sally is one of a pizza-making family. Sally's Dad made the pizzas at the age of eleven to peddle by the slice through the streets of Naples. In 1902, when Dad was in his twenties and Sally was a baby, the family came to New York. Dad set up the first pizzeria in the East Harlem section; now pizzerias dot the blocks. (...) It's a sausage cheese pizza Sally is making. Italian tomato sauce is poured over the dough, then cubes of mozzarelle cheese are laid on, next locatelli grated cheese, then little pieces of a dry link pork sausage which is made in the restaurant. Over all a pouring of oil; remember oil to an Italian means olive oil and only the best. The pizza board is picked up and carried to the open brick oven, a quick shove and the pie slides into the heat. It bakes in five minutes to a golden cheese-dripping goodness. (...)(Col. 8--ed.) Pizzas are in four kinds, cheese 60 cents and $1.15, according to the size, anchovy 65 cents and $1.25, sausage and cheese 85 cents and $1.65 and half-and-half, large size only, $1.25. STUFFED PIE--The stuffed pizza, or call it calzonia, is Anna's great glory. This takes the same dough as the pizza, but the architecture is different. First ricotta, then mozzarelle, next thinly sliced prosciutto, over this grated locatelli, a sprinkle of pepper and at last the olive oil. Now the pie is folded like an apple turnover, its halves sealed with the fingers. It's smeared lightly with olive oil and into the oven. The very dickens to eat, finger food, of course, and for us it dribbled untidily, but "love that pie all the same." (I previously recorded a "calzone" in a 1947 Manhattan telephone book ad...Lombardi's on Spring Street claims to be the first pizzeria in the Western World. It opened in 1905; Sally's dad came in 1902?...Pizza by the slice in Naples in the 1890s?...Shouldn't that eleven-year-old have been in school?--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 25 03:02:33 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:02:33 +0800 Subject: Little Italy north? (1947) In-Reply-To: <7d.1b69fbb4.28e1ed50@aol.com> Message-ID: At 10:23 AM -0400 9/25/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 25 January 1947, pg. 11, col. 7: > >_Pizzas of Cheese and Sausage_ >_Baked Brown in Sally's Oven_ >---------------------------- >_Golden Stuffed Pies Are_ > _Baked to Order in This_ > _East Harlem Hideaway_ > By Clementine Paddleford > Let's do something different tonight. And why not? Don't you >get bored with the smart restaurant-type meal, each just like the >other? Heaven knows that we do. Now is the moment to strike out >for Sally's at 2217 First Avenue, between 113th and 114th Streets, >location East Harlem, in the heart of Little Italy. The pizzas >you'll love and ditto for Sally, and ditto for Sally's wife, Anna. >Quaff the red wine; eat pizza pie. Getting us hungry again, Barry. I was struck by this application of "the heart of Little Italy" to a quarter within East Harlem. For me, the only "Little Italy" in New York is and was in lower Manhattan, abutting Chinatown, including the Spring Street location mentioned later in Barry's post, Mulberry St., etc. Was "Little Italy" applied to both these geographically quite distinct areas back in the 40's? Or was it just a cover term for any part of New York inhabited by Italians? It sounds from this context like the former is the case, and Paddleford should know, but I still find it strange. (I love the nostalgic value of "pizza pie"--was this largely a New York designation, or do others remember this as standard mid-century (or later) usage elsewhere?) larry From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 15:28:34 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:28:34 EDT Subject: Little Italy north? (1947) Message-ID: "Little Italy" was applied to several Italian neighborhoods in NYC over the years. Even today, the Belmont area of the Bronx is known as Little Italy. Steve Boatti From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Sep 25 15:47:11 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:47:11 -0400 Subject: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) Message-ID: Barry's details and dates below are instructive, and blow away the claim (which I never believed anyway) that the first pizzas were made in New Haven, a local myth in Connecticut. The spelling is always "calzone" around here. Re "pizza pie", as a former Midwesterner, I can report that referring to a pizza as a "pie", common in the NYC-area (and elsewhere? DARE files?) struck me as odd when I first heard it. To me it was never called anything but "pizza", and "pizza pie" was only known from the lyrics of the Dean Martin song "That's Amore". One can also ask for a "slice of pie" in NYC, which in Ohio/Michigan would mean something with fruit or cream (or whatever) in it, not pizza, not ever. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 10:23 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 25 January 1947, pg. 11, col. 7: _Pizzas of Cheese and Sausage_ _Baked Brown in Sally's Oven_ ---------------------------- _Golden Stuffed Pies Are_ _Baked to Order in This_ _East Harlem Hideaway_ By Clementine Paddleford Let's do something different tonight. And why not? Don't you get bored with the smart restaurant-type meal, each just like the other? Heaven knows that we do. Now is the moment to strike out for Sally's at 2217 First Avenue, between 113th and 114th Streets, location East Harlem, in the heart of Little Italy. The pizzas you'll love and ditto for Sally, and ditto for Sally's wife, Anna. Quaff the red wine; eat pizza pie. Stay past your bed time. No weariness tomorrow, for you have had fun. Just for this evening be a young sprout again. Pizza, that's the great thing. Sally is one of a pizza-making family. Sally's Dad made the pizzas at the age of eleven to peddle by the slice through the streets of Naples. In 1902, when Dad was in his twenties and Sally was a baby, the family came to New York. Dad set up the first pizzeria in the East Harlem section; now pizzerias dot the blocks. (...) It's a sausage cheese pizza Sally is making. Italian tomato sauce is poured over the dough, then cubes of mozzarelle cheese are laid on, next locatelli grated cheese, then little pieces of a dry link pork sausage which is made in the restaurant. Over all a pouring of oil; remember oil to an Italian means olive oil and only the best. The pizza board is picked up and carried to the open brick oven, a quick shove and the pie slides into the heat. It bakes in five minutes to a golden cheese-dripping goodness. (...)(Col. 8--ed.) Pizzas are in four kinds, cheese 60 cents and $1.15, according to the size, anchovy 65 cents and $1.25, sausage and cheese 85 cents and $1.65 and half-and-half, large size only, $1.25. STUFFED PIE--The stuffed pizza, or call it calzonia, is Anna's great glory. This takes the same dough as the pizza, but the architecture is different. First ricotta, then mozzarelle, next thinly sliced prosciutto, over this grated locatelli, a sprinkle of pepper and at last the olive oil. Now the pie is folded like an apple turnover, its halves sealed with the fingers. It's smeared lightly with olive oil and into the oven. The very dickens to eat, finger food, of course, and for us it dribbled untidily, but "love that pie all the same." (I previously recorded a "calzone" in a 1947 Manhattan telephone book ad...Lombardi's on Spring Street claims to be the first pizzeria in the Western World. It opened in 1905; Sally's dad came in 1902?...Pizza by the slice in Naples in the 1890s?...Shouldn't that eleven-year-old have been in school?--ed.) From chyatt at BALDWIN.K12.GA.US Tue Sep 25 15:59:12 2001 From: chyatt at BALDWIN.K12.GA.US (Charles Hyatt) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:59:12 -0400 Subject: alpha male Message-ID: I am trying to discover the origin of the term "alpha male". I am aware of its meaning, the ranking male in a (mammalian) group of animals such as primates or wolves, and of its use by Naomi Wolf in her consulting work for Al Gore, but I have not been able to locate the FIRST use. Any help appreciated. Thanks. Charles Hyatt chyatt at baldwin.k12.ga.us -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Tue Sep 25 16:46:31 2001 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:46:31 -0500 Subject: Little Italy north/pizza pie Message-ID: Grew up in Chicago, and in the '40's and 50's it was called pizza pie, slowly morphed into pizza and once in a great while "pie" As in "I'll have a medium sausage pie" Laurence Horn wrote: > > At 10:23 AM -0400 9/25/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 25 January 1947, pg. 11, col. 7: > > > >_Pizzas of Cheese and Sausage_ > >_Baked Brown in Sally's Oven_ > >---------------------------- > >_Golden Stuffed Pies Are_ > > _Baked to Order in This_ > > _East Harlem Hideaway_ > > By Clementine Paddleford > > Let's do something different tonight. And why not? Don't you > >get bored with the smart restaurant-type meal, each just like the > >other? Heaven knows that we do. Now is the moment to strike out > >for Sally's at 2217 First Avenue, between 113th and 114th Streets, > >location East Harlem, in the heart of Little Italy. The pizzas > >you'll love and ditto for Sally, and ditto for Sally's wife, Anna. > >Quaff the red wine; eat pizza pie. > > Getting us hungry again, Barry. I was struck by this application of > "the heart of Little Italy" to a quarter within East Harlem. For me, > the only "Little Italy" in New York is and was in lower Manhattan, > abutting Chinatown, including the Spring Street location mentioned > later in Barry's post, Mulberry St., etc. Was "Little Italy" applied > to both these geographically quite distinct areas back in the 40's? > Or was it just a cover term for any part of New York inhabited by > Italians? It sounds from this context like the former is the case, > and Paddleford should know, but I still find it strange. > > (I love the nostalgic value of "pizza pie"--was this largely a New > York designation, or do others remember this as standard mid-century > (or later) usage elsewhere?) > > larry From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Tue Sep 25 16:32:55 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:32:55 -0400 Subject: "on the may"--typo for "on the way" Message-ID: "Pearsons, Enid" writes: >>>>> Typo was just what I was thinking...or rather, thinko or hearo. Could this piece have been dictated over the phone to someone who heard "on the menu" (perhaps pronounced /'menju/) as "...may"? OK, it's a wild guess, but it's one more possibility in that context. "Way" is pretty appealing, too. <<<<< Or reado? A handwritten "w" misread as "m"? Not as likely: a speako, actually missaid on the phone. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company : speech recognition 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Sep 25 16:53:53 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:53:53 -0700 Subject: Little Italy north? (1947) Message-ID: larry horn: >(I love the nostalgic value of "pizza pie"--was this largely a New >York designation, or do others remember this as standard mid-century >(or later) usage elsewhere?) i remember it from the late 40s/early 50s in eastern pennsylvania. i remember "tomato pie" too, though it went out of use pretty fast. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), when the moon hits your eye... From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Sep 25 17:15:29 2001 From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:15:29 -0400 Subject: More 9.11-Related Words Message-ID: For those who may be keeping a list of terms related to the Sept. 11 attacks: The Pit - Can't remember if this has been mentioned here already. This is the term that rescue workers use for WTC ground zero. "The pile" seems to be used interchangeably by the news media, but I assume the pile is the mound of rubble and the pit is the honeycombed pathways being cut within it to search for survivors underneath the wreckage. Burger King Special - Used by a DC Air National Guard captain on DC local news to describe the type of fighter jet being used to protect Capitol airspace. Used to describe a plane that has a full compliment of weapons. From the Burger King "Hold the pickles, hold the lettuce" campaign promoting the "Have it your way" burger. I'd imagine this term is far from new. OBL Factor - ["Osama bin Laden Factor"] Just heard this one on MSNBC, given as a reason why Muslims may be hesitant to give money to Islamic charities in the future (fearing that some of the money may be secretly going to terrorist orgs). A Web search finds that this term has been around for years and is used generally to refer to the impact that bin Laden is having on policies in and towards the Muslim/Arab world. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 25 17:09:28 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:09:28 -0400 Subject: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Frank Abate wrote: > Barry's details and dates below are instructive, and blow away the claim > (which I never believed anyway) that the first pizzas were made in New > Haven, a local myth in Connecticut. There is also a local myth hereabouts that the hamburger was invented at Louie's Lunch in New Haven, but evidence for the 19th-century existence of the term "hamburger," furnished by historical dictionaries and by Barry's researches, disproves that one as well. I think the local claim that "frisbee" originated in New Haven is authentic. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 17:21:44 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:21:44 EDT Subject: More 9.11-Related Words Message-ID: There's also a sick internet joke (delete now!), in the "Chicken Kiev" manner (over 50 hits on Google), involving Osama bin Laden's appearance on a cooking show with his new dish, "Big Apple Crumble." From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 25 05:46:40 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:46:40 +0800 Subject: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:09 PM -0400 9/25/01, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Frank Abate wrote: > >> Barry's details and dates below are instructive, and blow away the claim >> (which I never believed anyway) that the first pizzas were made in New >> Haven, a local myth in Connecticut. > >There is also a local myth hereabouts that the hamburger was invented at >Louie's Lunch in New Haven, but evidence for the 19th-century existence of >the term "hamburger," furnished by historical dictionaries and by Barry's >researches, disproves that one as well. > >I think the local claim that "frisbee" originated in New Haven is >authentic. > Poor New Haven. We'll be left with just our frisbees to cry into. And maybe our (hot) dogs, based on Barry's evidence from the Yale Record--it would be ironic if we have to give up our primacy in burgers only to capture pride of place for the dogs. But in any case, it's not LOUIE'S but LOUIS' Lunch (on Crown Street) that claims to have fathered the modern hamburger. It's pronounced "Louie's" but it's never been spelled that way. --Larry, wondering if New Haven might be the home of the first pizzaburger From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM Tue Sep 25 17:52:09 2001 From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:52:09 -0400 Subject: More 9.11-Related Words Message-ID: Referring to the pending war/crusade/mobilisation/whatever, I've also seen "vaporwar," clearly a play on "vaporware" (see http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/slideware.html). Paul From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Tue Sep 25 17:41:18 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:41:18 +0100 Subject: wicked little critta Message-ID: Apparently, there's a song of Boston slang on They Might Be Giants' new album (_Mink Car_). I haven't heard the song yet, but here's what their website says about it: 14. Wicked Little Critta Incorporating half the vocabulary of our childhoods in the suburbs of Boston, this lyric may jar the memories of many New Englanders. Remixed by the Elegant Too, the track celebrates the enchanting "old school" sound of the mid-1980's inner city even as it invokes the "older school" of Eastern Massachusettes in the early 1970s. If you get the feeling you've heard this song before then this song is dedicated to you. In case you're interested... Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Sep 25 17:57:33 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:57:33 -0400 Subject: FW: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) Message-ID: Yes, Fred is right about Frisbee. There was, and is, a brand of pies in CT, such as apple, blueberry, etc. (not pizza), called Frisbie (note spelling). The company was based in Bridgeport; I don't know if the company still exists, or if the brand name is merely used by some other company. Their pie plates were long ago used as flying disks, reputedly by Yale students. This led in some fashion to the invention of the plastic disk called Frisbee. There are various sites on the web that talk about this, though I am not sure how accurate the details are. But I am confident about Frisbie pie plates in CT being the ultimate Frisbee (if you will). Other famous products with a Connecticut connection include Wiffle Ball, invented and still made in Shelton, Silly Putty, invented by a CT scientist, and the space suits used by NASA, developed and made near Hartford by Hamilton Sundstrand (formerly Hamilton Standard). Frank Abate author, "Connecticut Trivia" -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Fred Shapiro Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 1:09 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Frank Abate wrote: > Barry's details and dates below are instructive, and blow away the claim > (which I never believed anyway) that the first pizzas were made in New > Haven, a local myth in Connecticut. There is also a local myth hereabouts that the hamburger was invented at Louie's Lunch in New Haven, but evidence for the 19th-century existence of the term "hamburger," furnished by historical dictionaries and by Barry's researches, disproves that one as well. I think the local claim that "frisbee" originated in New Haven is authentic. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Sep 25 18:03:24 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:03:24 -0400 Subject: More 9.11-Related Words In-Reply-To: <3BB0BBAF.E48A7453@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I just heard Defense Secretary Rumsfeld (press conference on MSNBC, 9-25-2001) use "asymmetrical" as an adjective descriptive of targets related to the terrorist groups who are involved with the recent attacks. It seems to be intended to differentiate such targets from traditional national targets in previous wars; why these would be considered "symmetrical" I don't know. Whence and wherefore this usage I cannot say, but the Pentagon likes to come up with new stuff like this. Frank Abate From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Sep 25 18:05:53 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:05:53 -0400 Subject: Little Italy north? (1947) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/24/01 23:02, "Laurence Horn" wrote: > Getting us hungry again, Barry. I was struck by this application of > "the heart of Little Italy" to a quarter within East Harlem. There are still a couple of classic, old-school, old-New York Italian restaurants in the neighborhood, though I can't for the life of me remember them right now. ... Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Sep 25 18:13:58 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:13:58 -0400 Subject: FW: Little Italy north? (1947) Message-ID: There is a neighborhood in the Bronx along Arthur Avenue that is an Italian enclave, home to Italian markets, delis, and restaurants. It is well known in the city and is talked about in guide books as a place to visit for things Italian, which it certainly is. I had a lunch at a place there that has no written menu and no listed prices. One arrives, sits at a bench-type table next to strangers, and hears from the waiter what is available that day. They will also make classic dishes to order if they have the ingredients. The food is quite good, home-style, and inexpensive by any standard. When you're done, the waiter tells you what you owe, and you pay -- cash only. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Grant Barrett Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 2:06 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Little Italy north? (1947) On 9/24/01 23:02, "Laurence Horn" wrote: > Getting us hungry again, Barry. I was struck by this application of > "the heart of Little Italy" to a quarter within East Harlem. There are still a couple of classic, old-school, old-New York Italian restaurants in the neighborhood, though I can't for the life of me remember them right now. ... Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM Tue Sep 25 17:59:53 2001 From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Pearsons, Enid) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:59:53 -0400 Subject: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) Message-ID: I still feel nostalgic about those days when, newly ensconsed in New York, I would take the train home to Bridgeport and pass the "La Resista Corset Company." I guess they never achieved the status of a Frisbie pie or a Whiffle ball. Enid > -----Original Message----- > From: Frank Abate [mailto:abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET] > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 1:58 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: FW: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) > > > Yes, Fred is right about Frisbee. There was, and is, a brand > of pies in CT, > such as apple, blueberry, etc. (not pizza), called Frisbie > (note spelling). > The company was based in Bridgeport; I don't know if the company still > exists, or if the brand name is merely used by some other > company. Their > pie plates were long ago used as flying disks, reputedly by > Yale students. > This led in some fashion to the invention of the plastic disk called > Frisbee. > > There are various sites on the web that talk about this, > though I am not > sure how accurate the details are. But I am confident about > Frisbie pie > plates in CT being the ultimate Frisbee (if you will). > > Other famous products with a Connecticut connection include > Wiffle Ball, > invented and still made in Shelton, Silly Putty, invented by > a CT scientist, > and the space suits used by NASA, developed and made near Hartford by > Hamilton Sundstrand (formerly Hamilton Standard). > > Frank Abate > author, "Connecticut Trivia" > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Fred Shapiro > > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 1:09 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) > > > On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Frank Abate wrote: > > > Barry's details and dates below are instructive, and blow > away the claim > > (which I never believed anyway) that the first pizzas were > made in New > > Haven, a local myth in Connecticut. > > There is also a local myth hereabouts that the hamburger was > invented at > Louie's Lunch in New Haven, but evidence for the 19th-century > existence of > the term "hamburger," furnished by historical dictionaries > and by Barry's > researches, disproves that one as well. > > I think the local claim that "frisbee" originated in New Haven is > authentic. > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY > OF QUOTATIONS > and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > http://quotationdictionary.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 25 18:07:53 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:07:53 -0400 Subject: FW: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Frank Abate wrote: > Other famous products with a Connecticut connection include Wiffle Ball, > invented and still made in Shelton, Silly Putty, invented by a CT scientist, > and the space suits used by NASA, developed and made near Hartford by > Hamilton Sundstrand (formerly Hamilton Standard). Also, Gilbert's Erector sets and chemistry sets were made in Connecticut by Yale pole-vault Olympic gold-medalist A. C. Gilbert. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Sep 25 18:38:07 2001 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:38:07 -0400 Subject: FW: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tell me it's not so! I'm a wh/w distinguisher, and I always thought it was Whiffleball. dInIs >On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Frank Abate wrote: > >> Other famous products with a Connecticut connection include Wiffle Ball, >> invented and still made in Shelton, Silly Putty, invented by a CT scientist, >> and the space suits used by NASA, developed and made near Hartford by >> Hamilton Sundstrand (formerly Hamilton Standard). > >Also, Gilbert's Erector sets and chemistry sets were made in Connecticut >by Yale pole-vault Olympic gold-medalist A. C. Gilbert. > >Fred Shapiro > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, >Yale Law School forthcoming >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Sep 25 18:29:43 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:29:43 -0400 Subject: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) Message-ID: On 9/25/01 11:47, "Frank Abate" wrote: > Re "pizza pie", as a former Midwesterner, I can report that referring to a > pizza as a "pie", common in the NYC-area (and elsewhere? DARE files?) > struck me as odd when I first heard it. To me it was never called anything > but "pizza", and "pizza pie" was only known from the lyrics of the Dean > Martin song "That's Amore". One can also ask for a "slice of pie" in NYC, > which in Ohio/Michigan would mean something with fruit or cream (or > whatever) in it, not pizza, not ever. Aren't New Yorkers more likely to ask for just "a slice"? Also, I think "a slice" is usually a plain cheese slice, unless you specify. If you specify, you're probably not going to say "a slice of the white" for fear of getting both a slice and a piece of the white pizza (sometimes known as the three-cheese or four-cheese or just the ricotta). In my early days here, I was corrected on this several times by pizzamen asking me, in that mildly exasperated voice, "Whaddyou want? A slice or the three-cheese?" Finally, there has always seemed to me to be some uncertainty as to what constitutes a pizza pie. Some might argue that a plain cheese pizza is just a pizza and not a pie, while Lombardi's clam pie is a pie (and not just a pizza) because it has layers of other toppings besides sauce and cheese. Is there some connotation of depth with the word "pie"? -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Sep 25 18:43:46 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:43:46 -0400 Subject: Little Italy north? (1947) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/25/01 14:05, "Grant Barrett" wrote: > On 9/24/01 23:02, "Laurence Horn" wrote: > >> Getting us hungry again, Barry. I was struck by this application of >> "the heart of Little Italy" to a quarter within East Harlem. > > There are still a couple of classic, old-school, old-New York Italian > restaurants in the neighborhood, though I can't for the life of me remember > them right now. Rao's is one of them. http://www.nycity4u.com/mainFood&Dinning.htm "Rao's contains only 12 tables, which makes it next to impossible to score a reservation here unless you're Martin Scorsese or another one of Rao's favorite patron. Closed on weekends, Rao's only offers one seating weekdays. Addr: 445 E 114th St Subway: (6) to 116th St Tel: (212)722-6709" Also mentioned in this very interesting story about Dutch Schultz: http://www.paulsann.org/killthedutchman/chapter_XII.htm "While Coll's kidnapping proclivities made him an extremely poor risk in the lower levels of the town's society even beyond his little problem with Dutch Schultz, he was about to suffer a rash of publicity that would put him on the very bottom of all the popularity charts in every walk of the city's life. It happened on July 28, 1931, even before the full story of the DeMange caper had dribbled out through the underworld's paper curtain. On that steaming summer day, a touring car carrying five gunmen drove into crowded East 107th Street in Spanish Harlem, slowed down in front of Joey Rao's Helmar Social Club and laid down a stream of fire, presumably aiming at some lucky bum who had been marked for the spot but wasn't on it. While the mission failed, it had a far more tragic effect, for in the hail of some 60 bullets a five-year-old boy, Michael Vengalli, was killed, and four other children playing on the slum street were wounded." -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM Tue Sep 25 18:54:23 2001 From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:54:23 -0400 Subject: More 9.11-Related Words Message-ID: See my entry for asymmetric warfare: http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/asymmetricwarfare.html Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Abate" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 2:03 PM Subject: Re: More 9.11-Related Words > I just heard Defense Secretary Rumsfeld (press conference on MSNBC, > 9-25-2001) use "asymmetrical" as an adjective descriptive of targets related > to the terrorist groups who are involved with the recent attacks. It seems > to be intended to differentiate such targets from traditional national > targets in previous wars; why these would be considered "symmetrical" I > don't know. Whence and wherefore this usage I cannot say, but the Pentagon > likes to come up with new stuff like this. > > Frank Abate > From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Sep 25 18:53:22 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:53:22 -0400 Subject: FW: FW: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) Message-ID: Sorry, but it is "Wiffle". See their website: www.wiffle.com Oh, and I forgot to mention Colt revolvers (Hartford). Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Dennis R. Preston Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 2:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: FW: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) Tell me it's not so! I'm a wh/w distinguisher, and I always thought it was Whiffleball. dInIs >On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Frank Abate wrote: > >> Other famous products with a Connecticut connection include Wiffle Ball, >> invented and still made in Shelton, Silly Putty, invented by a CT scientist, >> and the space suits used by NASA, developed and made near Hartford by >> Hamilton Sundstrand (formerly Hamilton Standard). > >Also, Gilbert's Erector sets and chemistry sets were made in Connecticut >by Yale pole-vault Olympic gold-medalist A. C. Gilbert. > >Fred Shapiro > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, >Yale Law School forthcoming >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 25 18:49:44 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:49:44 -0400 Subject: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Laurence Horn wrote: > Poor New Haven. We'll be left with just our frisbees to cry into. > And maybe our (hot) dogs, based on Barry's evidence from the Yale > Record--it would be ironic if we have to give up our primacy in > burgers only to capture pride of place for the dogs. I think Barry's work has given pride of place to New Haven for the TERM "hot dog," but not for the thing itself. Under the name "frankfurter" and variants thereof, the thing is attested in other venues prior to the earliest New Haven evidence. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 19:17:53 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:17:53 EDT Subject: Hero (1947) Message-ID: I haven't been doing the NYHT in order...I'll try to find a "flying saucer" and "Caesar salad" later today. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 28 October 1947, pg. 24, col. 1: _Newspaper Food Editors Meet in New Orleans_ (...) By Clementine Paddleford (...) (Col. 4--ed.) Other high lights for this week include a visit to the French market; eating boiled shrimp at the water edge on Lake Pontchartrain, eating a poor-boy sandwich, which is something on the order of the Italian hero. From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 19:30:08 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:30:08 EDT Subject: Little Italy north? (1947) Message-ID: In a message dated 9/25/01 2:06:10 PM, gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes: << On 9/24/01 23:02, "Laurence Horn" wrote: > Getting us hungry again, Barry. I was struck by this application of > "the heart of Little Italy" to a quarter within East Harlem. There are still a couple of classic, old-school, old-New York Italian restaurants in the neighborhood, though I can't for the life of me remember them right now. >> The most famous is Rao's, on 114th and Pleasant Ave., where it is essentially impossible to get in because all of the few tables are taken up each night by "regulars." Steve Boatti From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 19:33:00 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:33:00 EDT Subject: FW: Little Italy north? (1947) Message-ID: In a message dated 9/25/01 2:15:24 PM, abatefr at earthlink.net writes: << There is a neighborhood in the Bronx along Arthur Avenue that is an Italian enclave, home to Italian markets, delis, and restaurants. It is well known in the city and is talked about in guide books as a place to visit for things Italian, which it certainly is. I had a lunch at a place there that has no written menu and no listed prices. One arrives, sits at a bench-type table next to strangers, and hears from the waiter what is available that day. They will also make classic dishes to order if they have the ingredients. The food is quite good, home-style, and inexpensive by any standard. When you're done, the waiter tells you what you owe, and you pay -- cash only. Frank Abate >> The official name of this neighborhood is Belmont. It was the home of the early doo-wop group, Dion and the Belmonts. It is also known as "Little Italy of the Bronx." Steve Boatti From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 20:25:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:25:45 EDT Subject: Turkeyburgers (1947); Supergirl; Live Dangerously Message-ID: TURKEYBURGERS/TURKEY STEAKS From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 6 November 1947, pg. 22, col. 1: _Boneless Turkey Steaks Here_ _In Choice of Light or Dark_ --------------------------- _Connecituct Couple Also Makes Turkeyburgers_ _From Drumsticks and a Canned Soup of_ _Carcass Meat--Nothing Left for Hash_ By Clementine Paddleford Turkey steaks come to town. The idea of steaking turkey was introduced in Missouri in 1937. But nothing much came of this until two years ago when Texas got busy ballyhooing the novelty. Now the idea moves east. Mr. and Mrs. Richard Carroll, turkey growers, of Cheshire, Conn., are introducing turkey steaks for New Yorkers. They offer the four-ounce boneless, frozen steaks packaged in pairs, these selling for 79 cents at United Farms, 70 University Place, and London Terrace Food Market, Twenty-fourth Street and Ninth Avenue. The Food Fare, 35 West Eighth Street, will have steaks by the week end. And that isn't all! There are turkeyburgers, too, called turkey delight. (...) -------------------------------------------------------- SUPERGIRL The title of a profile in THIS WEEK, NYHT, 5 October 1947, pg. 34, col. 2. She's Esther Williams. -------------------------------------------------------- LIVE DANGEROUSLY From the NYHT, 8 November 1947, pg. 12, col. 2: _Lord Mottistone, the Gen. Seely_ _Of Live Dangerously Fame, Dies_ LONDON, Nov. 7 (CP).--Lord Mottistone, seventy-nine, soldier, author and statesman whose motto was "live dangerously," died of bronchitis today at his London home. (At Grand Central Terminal, the Lexington Avenue side, is a Citi advertisement. "Live Richly" is the motto. "Being filthy rich is so 1999," it says. I can't believe it's still up--ed.) From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Tue Sep 25 20:36:53 2001 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:36:53 -0500 Subject: Homeland Security In-Reply-To: <51.11b810c6.28e23261@aol.com> Message-ID: This is an interesting link that purports to show the first use of "homeland security": http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/AskTheExperts/askexpert.cfm?expert=92 Erin From AAllan at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 21:29:27 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:29:27 EDT Subject: Cuban accent: help wanted Message-ID: Here's a request for help: >>I'm working on the play "Landscape of the Body" by John Guare and I was wondering if you have or could point me in the direction of any published material on the Cuban Accent. I'm coaching the show and have found many sources for Spanish and Mexican but am having difficulty finding Cuban. I'm looking for as much detailed info as possible, especially phonetic analysis.<< I'm stumped. If you have a suggestion, please address mmorgan at dramadance.ucsb.edu Michael Morgan Lecturer University of California @Santa Barbara as well as ADS-L. Thanks! - Allan Metcalf From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 21:40:02 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:40:02 EDT Subject: Cuban accent: help wanted Message-ID: Watch old I Love Lucy re-runs and imitate Ricky. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Sep 25 23:17:00 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:17:00 -0400 Subject: FW: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) Message-ID: >Also, Gilbert's Erector sets and chemistry sets were made in Connecticut >by Yale pole-vault Olympic gold-medalist A. C. Gilbert. >Fred Shapiro ~~~~~~~~~~~~ And Gilbert's Puzzles. A. Murie From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Sep 25 23:52:17 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:52:17 -0400 Subject: Cuban accent: help wanted In-Reply-To: <32.1b680eaa.28e25137@aol.com> Message-ID: The most recnet phonetically sophisticated work on Cuban Spanish has been carried out Gabriela Alafaraz, in part as a result of her LInguistics PhD dissertation at Michigan State. You can get in touch with her at alfarazg at msu.edu dInIs >Here's a request for help: > >>>I'm working on the play "Landscape of the Body" by John Guare and I was >wondering if you have or could point me in the direction of any published >material on the Cuban Accent. I'm coaching the show and have found many >sources for Spanish and Mexican but am having difficulty finding Cuban. I'm >looking for as much detailed info as possible, especially phonetic analysis.<< > >I'm stumped. If you have a suggestion, please address > >mmorgan at dramadance.ucsb.edu >Michael Morgan >Lecturer University of California @Santa Barbara > >as well as ADS-L. Thanks! - Allan Metcalf -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 23:51:16 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:51:16 EDT Subject: Top Banana (1947); Revolving Door; PruneJuice; Bigger Bang Message-ID: TOP BANANA OED has 1953 for "second banana." I think Jesse asked about this a while ago. From THIS WEEK, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 28 December 1947, pg. 16, col. 2: _TOP BANANA..._ by Charles D. Rice _Phil Silvers,who started out in_ _burlesque, has found that the $5_ _customers are no different from the_ _35-centers--they love a "boffola"_ (...) Third Banana, for the uninitiated, is a very humble station in show business. During the depression Phil played burlesque; the average burlesque company carries three comedians who are always known as First, Second and Third Bananas. (Non-comedians are Straight Men, chorus girls are Slaves, and any female performer who is articulate enough to speak lines has the dignified title of Talking Woman. But more of this interesting industry later...) (Maybe I'll check this in my Barry Buchanon 1930s ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE ENTERTAINMENT WORLD files--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- REVOLVING DOOR OED's best "revolving door" is 1907? From George Rector's obituary in the NYHT, 27 November 1947, pg. 36, col. 3: _Revolving Door Novelty_ The place was a success from the first day. Charles Rector accumulated money, moved to larger quarters, and by 1899 was ready to sell out and invade the New York field. In that year he established what was to be the most famous Rector's, at the southeast corner of Broadway and Forty-fourth Stret. He invested $200,000 in the place, and the opening day, Sept. 23, was almost ruined by one innovation, the first revolving door ever seen in New York. An estimated 5,000 people spun around in the door to see how it worked, but they spun out again without buying, and the crowd made it difficult for real patrons to enter. But the novelty of the door palled speedily, and Rector's settled down to business. -------------------------------------------------------- BAGELS & LOX (continued) "Bagels and Lox Delivered for Breakfast in Bed" is in the NYHT, 5 December 1947, pg. 32, cols. 6-8. It's a story about Murray Schwartz of Brooklyn; a similar story was in PIC. -------------------------------------------------------- PRUNE JUICE OED has 1863, but this is useful, from the NYHT, 8 December 1947, pg. 14, col. 2: Prune juice sells here by the hundreds of gallons annually and over three-fourths of all sold in the city bears the Sunsweet label. This was the world's first prune juice, introduced in 1933. -------------------------------------------------------- BIGGER BANG ("Big Bang" continued) An editorial cartoon in the NYHT, 7 December 1947, section two, pg. 7, col. 1. "Atom" is relaxing among palm trees, and the caption reads: "This Is Okay, but I Get a Bigger Bang Out of City Life." From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Sep 26 00:16:01 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:16:01 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility Message-ID: Dear Allan and the rest of the list, My wife, Hollis, was wearing her spectacular ADS shirt at a Celtic Day festival last weekend when a phonology teacher at SUNY New Paltz engaged her in a conversation about the ADS. She had NEVER heard of it. How could this be? Don't instructors tell their students about professional societies? Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 25 13:25:34 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:25:34 +0800 Subject: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:49 PM -0400 9/25/01, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> Poor New Haven. We'll be left with just our frisbees to cry into. >> And maybe our (hot) dogs, based on Barry's evidence from the Yale >> Record--it would be ironic if we have to give up our primacy in >> burgers only to capture pride of place for the dogs. > >I think Barry's work has given pride of place to New Haven for the TERM >"hot dog," but not for the thing itself. Under the name "frankfurter" and >variants thereof, the thing is attested in other venues prior to the >earliest New Haven evidence. > Understood; I meant to claim no more. And it wasn't really "hot dog" but just "dog" in the Yale cites, IIRC. It is too bad about Pepe's and Louis' Lunch, though. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 25 13:36:19 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:36:19 +0800 Subject: Little Italy north? (1947) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:43 PM -0400 9/25/01, Grant Barrett wrote: >On 9/25/01 14:05, "Grant Barrett" wrote: > >> On 9/24/01 23:02, "Laurence Horn" wrote: >> >>> Getting us hungry again, Barry. I was struck by this application of >>> "the heart of Little Italy" to a quarter within East Harlem. >> >> There are still a couple of classic, old-school, old-New York Italian >> restaurants in the neighborhood, though I can't for the life of me remember >> them right now. > >Rao's is one of them. > >http://www.nycity4u.com/mainFood&Dinning.htm > >"Rao's contains only 12 tables, which makes it next to impossible to score a >reservation here unless you're Martin Scorsese or another one of Rao's >favorite patron. Closed on weekends, Rao's only offers one seating weekdays. >Addr: 445 E 114th St >Subway: (6) to 116th St >Tel: (212)722-6709" > Rao's is definitely renowned, not only through the restaurant itself, but its widely distributed (if rather pricey) jars of sauce. But my point wasn't that there aren't well-established and robust colonies of Italian people and restaurants in various enclaves of the five boroughs (not to mention the suburbs), but that the only one referred to as "Little Italy" was the lower Manhattan one. Evidently I'm wrong in this regard and it's more like "Chinatown", where the default one is in a certain place (right next to Little Italy in fact) but there can be other Chinatowns in Queens or Brooklyn or Harlem or wherever. I'll take Steve Boatti's word that the area around Rao's is (also) Little Italy, I just had never heard that use of the term, which I'd always taken to be a geographical as well as ethno-culinary label. larry From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Sep 26 02:46:45 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:46:45 -0500 Subject: Query: 1913 "nickel" Message-ID: Would anyone have any idea of the meaning of "nickel" in the quote below? I draw a complete blank. The quote appears in the newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_, Feb. 26, 1913, p.16/2; "Baseball Talk Heard in Sundry Leagues": "Clark Griffith wants the lid lifted on sideline comedy in baseball. Ban Johnson contends that nickel should provide an outlet for surplus comedians such as those of the Washington club." That's the entire item. ---Gerald Cohen From davemarc at PANIX.COM Wed Sep 26 02:49:28 2001 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:49:28 -0400 Subject: More 9.11-Related Words Message-ID: Regarding asymmetry, perhaps the following references to "unanticipated asymetries" will be of interest. d. * Rueful Prophets Of the Unimaginable High-Level Studies Warned of Threat By Richard Leiby Washington Post Staff Writer Saturday, September 22, 2001; Page C01 In the chaos of Sept. 11, as she fled from her Pentagon office, Patti Benner Antsen's mind kept locking on two words: "Unanticipated asymmetries." Defense planners use such parlance to describe concepts of modern warfare, but according to Antsen, it comes down to something quite simple: "They would attack us in non-polite ways." We would not see the attack coming. And it would be horribly different from anything the nation had ever witnessed. Antsen, 45, was among those who predicted years ago that terrorist incidents like those of Sept. 11 would eventually happen. "It all clicked. It absolutely made perfect sense to me," recalled the civilian defense employee, who worked one corridor away from where hijackers smashed a jetliner into the Pentagon. "This was it." Unanticipated asymmetries: The words were emphasized in italic for readers of a 1997 report that Antsen helped prepare, "Transforming Defense: National Security in the 21st Century." The study by the National Defense Panel was one of several efforts to warn about a likely attack within our borders by terrorists, and the need to beef up homeland security. Fighting war symmetrically means lining up our armies against their armies, tanks against tanks. That era, the seers said, is over. Back then, people like Antsen were considered doomsayers, a chorus of bleak voices prophesying a strange war to come, against an ambiguous enemy. No one knew the hour or day, they said, but it was inevitable. It wasn't a matter of if, but when. "Americans will become increasingly vulnerable to hostile attack on our homeland," warned another major report on national security. "Americans will likely die on American soil, possibly in large numbers." In a crowded Senate hearing room yesterday, former senator Gary Hart of Colorado quoted those sentences to great effect. "That conclusion was delivered on Sept. 15, 1999, almost exactly two years to the day before our prediction came true," he said. Hart co-chaired, with former senator Warren Rudman of New Hampshire, a bipartisan commission that worked more than three years, spent $10 million and produced a three-part report called "New World Coming: American Security in the 21st Century." That commission, initiated by then-President Clinton and House Speaker Newt Gingrich in a rare bipartisan truce, also urged the creation of a homeland security agency -- a sweeping sort of interior ministry whose very name might have unsettled many Americans before Sept. 11. Back in December 1997, the National Defense Panel report said: "Coastal and border defense of the homeland is a challenge that again deserves serious thought." But the idea wasn't high on anyone's to-do list. After all, the report was looking way ahead, "to meet the challenges of 2020." As Rudman said in an interview, "We Americans have an ability to procrastinate until we get hit on the head by a 2-by-4." "There were people who would say, 'Homeland security? What are you, nuts?' " recalled Antsen. "Now the thinking has changed. Now it's an agreed-to assumption." "You've been voices in the wilderness, for the most part," Sen. Fred Thompson (R-Tenn.) said at yesterday's hearing by the Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs. "You were ahead of your time," added Sen. Joseph Lieberman (D-Conn.), the committee's chairman. Despite their prescience, soothsayers such as Antsen (who also worked on the Hart-Rudman report) are not chiding, "We told you so." They're heartened that their research provided a blueprint that could be quickly implemented. And by most accounts, senior Bush administration officials paid serious attention to the recommendations. "The president put it at the top of his agenda," said Virginia Gov. James S. Gilmore, who chaired an advisory panel established in 1999 to assess preparedness in the event of a terrorist attack involving weapons of mass destruction. "This president acted within days after his inauguration to begin to go to work on the issue and to coordinate with us." Gilmore's report included this now eerie statement: "We have been fortunate as a nation." It added, "We are impelled by the stark realization that a terrorist attack on some level inside our borders is inevitable and the United States must be ready." But none of the recent major studies on terrorist threats specifically envisioned an attack by hijackers who would turn jetliners into bombs. "We concluded that the real weapon is not the device or the material involved, but the terrorist delivery capacity and capability," Gilmore noted in his testimony at yesterday's hearing. "Unfortunately, I am afraid that this point has been borne out by the events of Sept. 11." The governor added in an interview, "It's not been the goal of our commission to try to dream up every possible conventional attack possible. We understand that they are limited only by the imagination of the evil mind, so it's purposeless, really, to try to analyze those things." Though he wasn't at the hearing yesterday, Gingrich was hailed by Rudman as the "father" of the homeland security concept. Later, the former Republican congressman spoke modestly about his contributions. "Maybe the uncle," said Gingrich, giving credit to Clinton, too. "I wouldn't say we were prescient. I would say this [Sept. 11] event is not the event we warned about, this event is the harbinger . . . ." One morning in October 1998, Antsen and another staffer were briefing Gingrich on asymmetric theories when he urged them to read screenplays and spy novels to get ideas about what terrorists were capable of doing. Get creative, he said, since our enemies will certainly be. As Antsen noted, "The most important thing about an asymmetric attack is that you cannot identify it ahead of time." It is designed to be unthinkable, unimaginable. But on Sept. 11, there were those who could comprehend what had happened. That morning, Warren Rudman was heading to his Washington law office by cab, listening to National Public Radio reports. "I thought, 'Oh God, we predicted this.' I'm so sorry were were right. I felt awful. I take no satisfaction in our prediction." © 2001 The Washington Post Company ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Abate To: Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 2:03 PM Subject: Re: More 9.11-Related Words > I just heard Defense Secretary Rumsfeld (press conference on MSNBC, > 9-25-2001) use "asymmetrical" as an adjective descriptive of targets related > to the terrorist groups who are involved with the recent attacks. It seems > to be intended to differentiate such targets from traditional national > targets in previous wars; why these would be considered "symmetrical" I > don't know. Whence and wherefore this usage I cannot say, but the Pentagon > likes to come up with new stuff like this. > > Frank Abate > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 26 06:05:33 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 02:05:33 EDT Subject: Second Banana (Barry Buchanan, 1930s) Message-ID: (PERSONAL: I've got to work tomorrow, and then it's Yom Kippur. Don't expect six postings of antedates each day for the next two days.) -------------------------------------------------------- I checked my papers for Barry Buchanan's unpublished ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE ENTERTAINMENT WORLD. What a find. It was written in the 1930s. From the BURLESQUE note cards: second banana Obsolete term for a second comic. See, first comic. second comedian Same as, second comic. second comic An obsolete term for the comedian of second importance in a show. Such a performer worked with the first comedian, or alone, as the occasion demanded. From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Wed Sep 26 06:10:42 2001 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 02:10:42 -0400 Subject: Query: 1913 "nickel" Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Cohen" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 22:46 Subject: Query: 1913 "nickel" > Would anyone have any idea of the meaning of "nickel" in the quote > below? I draw a complete blank. > The quote appears in the newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_, Feb. > 26, 1913, p.16/2; "Baseball Talk Heard in Sundry Leagues": > > "Clark Griffith wants the lid lifted on sideline comedy in baseball. > Ban Johnson contends that nickel should provide an outlet for surplus > comedians such as those of the Washington club." Given the traditional association of "nickel" with "5", and assuming that Ban Johnson was local to San Francisco, it could be a locally famous burlesque house or vaudeville theatre on Fifth street, or with an address of 5 whatever street, though this item may predate that use of nickel. Alternatively, it could be a suggestion in jest that a known impresario with name of maybe Nickel, Nickell, or Nichol give those ball playing clowns their own venue. bkd From salovex at WPO.CSO.NIU.EDU Wed Sep 26 08:31:53 2001 From: salovex at WPO.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 03:31:53 -0500 Subject: Little Italy north/pizza pie Message-ID: "Paul M. Johnson" wrote: > > Grew up in Chicago, and in the '40's and 50's it was called pizza pie, > slowly morphed into pizza and once in a great while "pie" As in "I'll > have a medium sausage pie" > Laurence Horn wrote: > > > > (I love the nostalgic value of "pizza pie"--was this largely a New > > York designation, or do others remember this as standard mid-century > > (or later) usage elsewhere?) I'll confirm Paul's report. My first pizza pies came from a Hyde Park bar in 1947-48 (academic year reference). If it matters, I think the bar was called Ken and Jock's, at 56th Street and Stony Island Avenue. Pizza pies were relatively new to the University of Chicago crowd at the time. Those pizza pies had a very soft crust, by today's standards. Sophisticated pizza pie eaters showed their superior knowledge by teaching the inexperienced to pick up a wedge and bend the outer edge in half with a finger pointed toward the center section of the pie. This provided a backbone that kept the really soft end -- from the center of the pie -- from folding down and dribbling over your chin, shirt, pants, or whatever. Just as pasta is supposed to be best if served al dente, you knew your pizza pie was at exactly the right temperature when your first slice burned the roof of your mouth. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! IN MEMORIAM: Peggy Salovesh 25 January 1932 -- 3 March 2001 From douglas at NB.NET Wed Sep 26 11:49:10 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:49:10 -0400 Subject: Query: 1913 "nickel" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My naive speculation is that "nickel" is short for "nickel theater" or so. Mathews' "Dictionary of Americanisms" shows several citations for "nickel theater", "nickel show", "nickelodeon" from 1908-1914. -- Doug Wilson From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Wed Sep 26 13:45:08 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:45:08 -0400 Subject: Little Italy north/pizza pie Message-ID: "Paul M. Johnson" writes: >>>>> Grew up in Chicago, and in the '40's and 50's it was called pizza pie, slowly morphed into pizza and once in a great while "pie" As in "I'll =========================== have a medium sausage pie" <<<<< Where I live in Framingham, Mass., a western suburb of Boston, there's a shop called "Ty's Pies". To my disappointment, it is a pizzeria, not a pie bakery. (I like pizza, but I was hoping for dessert-type pies.) -- Mark A. Mandel From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Wed Sep 26 14:02:00 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:02:00 -0400 Subject: Hot dog Message-ID: >From my notes on my experiences at (and to and from) this year's World Science Fiction Convention, which occurred over Labor Day weekend and adjoining weekdays: >>>>> WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 29 1:57pm Stop on the Garden State Parkway just into New Jersey for lunch. I notice that one of the food counters is a Cetagandan joint: "Jody Maroni's Sausage Kingdom, Home of the Haut Dog". <<<<< The point of mentioning it here is the (imho bad) pun "Haut Dog". (The point of putting it into my con report is based on Lois McMaster Bujold's series of sf novels about Miles Vorkosigan, in which... never mind.) -- Mark Mandel From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Sep 26 14:29:36 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:29:36 -0500 Subject: "nickel"--Douglas Wilson's speculation Message-ID: Douglas Wilson's speculation seems to be very much on the right track, viz. that "nickel" in the 1913 quote may be short for "nickel theater." I would just clarify it a bit: "nickel" seems to be used below as a synonym for "vaudeville-type comedy" (the vaudeville theaters may very well have charged an entrance fee of a nickel). So in the quote below, Ban Johnson (president of the American League) is saying that sideline comedy (= "nickel") would be very appropriate for the Washington team, whose playing was supposedly so bad it was a joke. As for Clark Griffith, he was either the manager or owner of the Washington team (I don't have the Baseball Encyclopedia handy). Thanx for the assist. ---Gerald Cohen >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 >From: "Douglas G. Wilson" >Subject: Re: Query: 1913 "nickel" >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >My naive speculation is that "nickel" is short for "nickel theater" or so. >Mathews' "Dictionary of Americanisms" shows several citations for "nickel >theater", "nickel show", "nickelodeon" from 1908-1914. > >-- Doug Wilson >> >> Would anyone have any idea of the meaning of "nickel" in the quote >>below? I draw a complete blank. >> The quote appears in the newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_, Feb. >>26, 1913, p.16/2; "Baseball Talk Heard in Sundry Leagues": >> >>"Clark Griffith wants the lid lifted on sideline comedy in baseball. >>Ban Johnson contends that nickel should provide an outlet for surplus >>comedians such as those of the Washington club." >> >>That's the entire item. >>---Gerald Cohen From Lesa.Dill at WKU.EDU Wed Sep 26 13:18:05 2001 From: Lesa.Dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:18:05 -0500 Subject: ADS visibility Message-ID: I certainly do. But then half of my students can't even remember my name by the end of the semester--which makes remembering ADS almost a moot point. Lesa Dill lesa.dill at wku.edu From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Sep 26 15:29:23 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:29:23 EDT Subject: Subject: Re: Goopher Feathers & a Big Bang (1949) Message-ID: I can't tell if this message made it to the ADS-L list, so I'm resubmitting. Please do not hesitate to use the delete key. In a message dated 09/23/2001 9:24:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > I'll end with a bang. Fred Hoyle, who died recently, coined his "Big Bang" > theory in 1950. The "Big Bang" theory was proposed by the Abbe/ George Lemai^tre (that's an acute accent and a circumflex respectively) in 1933. Fred Hoyle was for many years one of the leading opponents of the Big Bang theory. He and Herman Bondi and Thomas Gold of Cambridge University proposed the rival "Steady State" theory in 1948. I have no information on when the name "Big Bang" was applied to Lemai^tre's theory. You may be interested to know that the PC Police (when did that phrase originate?) are after "Big Bang", claiming it is a sexist name. Another interesting story about the Big Bang Theory concerns a variation of it proposed in a paper by George Gamow, Ralph A. Alpher, and Hans Bethe. I have no idea whether this story be true, but it is claimed that Bethe had nothing to do with the paper---his name was attached to it by Gamow with malice aforethought, so that it could be called the "Alpher-Bethe-Gamow" theory. According to my father, the theory went on the rocks and Bethe announced that he was going to change his name to Zacharias. James A. Landau Systems Engineer FAA Technical Center (ACT-350/BCI) Atlantic City Airport NJ 08405 USA From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Sep 26 16:33:05 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:33:05 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/25/01 20:16, "Barnhart" wrote: > Dear Allan and the rest of the list, > > My wife, Hollis, was wearing her spectacular ADS shirt at a Celtic Day > festival last weekend when a phonology teacher at SUNY New Paltz > engaged her in a conversation about the ADS. She had NEVER heard of > it. How could this be? Don't instructors tell their students about > professional societies? As a student I'll respond by saying that I recently gave a short oral presentation on a French conversation class about the curious pleonasm of "loup-garou" and much of the class hadn't heard of the OED and wasn't quite sure what etymology was. Still more were surprised to find that there is actually a difference between dictionaries; I suppose they had been wandering their whole short lives why there were so many dictionaries republishing identical material. Some had read "The Madman and the Professor," which I guess is not a bad way to get people interested in the whole realm of words, dictionaries and language in general. I suspect we need our own madman to write about (now, be nice...). -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Sep 26 16:36:48 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:36:48 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (Aaargh. Enter key in wrong place.) > My wife, Hollis, was wearing her spectacular ADS shirt at a Celtic Day > festival last weekend when a phonology teacher at SUNY New Paltz > engaged her in a conversation about the ADS. She had NEVER heard of > it. How could this be? Don't instructors tell their students about > professional societies? As a student I'll respond by saying that I recently gave a short oral presentation in a French conversation class about the curious pleonasm of "loup-garou" and much of the class hadn't heard of the OED and wasn't quite sure what etymology was. Still more were surprised to find that there is actually a difference between dictionaries; I suppose they had been wondering their whole short lives why there were so many dictionaries republishing identical material. Some had read "The Madman and the Professor," which I guess is not a bad way to get people interested in the whole realm of words, dictionaries and language in general. I suspect we need our own madman to write about (now, be nice...). -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From pivsin at CMJSOLUTIONS.COM Wed Sep 26 16:21:54 2001 From: pivsin at CMJSOLUTIONS.COM (Paul Ivsin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:21:54 -0500 Subject: "nickel"--Douglas Wilson's speculation Message-ID: Some confirmation and a minor correction: Clark Griffith was both manager and owner of the Washington Senators. According to his profile on the Baseball Online Library, he did have a connection to vaudeville dating back to his years as a player in 1893: ... When the [Oakland] Oaks' owners, in mid-season, did not come up with back pay owed the players, Griffith organized his teammates to strike. Needing employment, several of them, including Griffith, audaciously found work as itinerant vaudevillians in San Francisco's Barbary Coast district. When the owners found enough money, the greasepaint was abandoned and the season was completed. ... http://cbs.sportsline.com/u/baseball/bol/ballplayers/G/Griffith_Clark.html However, it should be noted that the 1913 Senators (led by Walter Johnson) were far from bad. They finished second in the American League with a 90-64 record. Griffith would eventually sign a one-legged player to the Senators, so his theatrical flair appears to have been deeply ingrained. Paul ... Paul Ivsin paul at ivsin.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Cohen" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 9:29 AM Subject: "nickel"--Douglas Wilson's speculation > Douglas Wilson's speculation seems to be very much on the right > track, viz. that "nickel" in the 1913 quote may be short for "nickel > theater." I would just clarify it a bit: "nickel" seems to be used > below as a synonym for "vaudeville-type comedy" (the vaudeville > theaters may very well have charged an entrance fee of a nickel). > > So in the quote below, Ban Johnson (president of the American > League) is saying that sideline comedy (= "nickel") would be very > appropriate for the Washington team, whose playing was supposedly so > bad it was a joke. As for Clark Griffith, he was either the manager > or owner of the Washington team (I don't have the Baseball > Encyclopedia handy). > > Thanx for the assist. > > ---Gerald Cohen > > > >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 > >From: "Douglas G. Wilson" > >Subject: Re: Query: 1913 "nickel" > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > >My naive speculation is that "nickel" is short for "nickel theater" or so. > >Mathews' "Dictionary of Americanisms" shows several citations for "nickel > >theater", "nickel show", "nickelodeon" from 1908-1914. > > > >-- Doug Wilson > > >> > >> Would anyone have any idea of the meaning of "nickel" in the quote > >>below? I draw a complete blank. > >> The quote appears in the newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_, Feb. > >>26, 1913, p.16/2; "Baseball Talk Heard in Sundry Leagues": > >> > >>"Clark Griffith wants the lid lifted on sideline comedy in baseball. > >>Ban Johnson contends that nickel should provide an outlet for surplus > >>comedians such as those of the Washington club." > >> > >>That's the entire item. > >>---Gerald Cohen > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Sep 26 05:02:59 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 13:02:59 +0800 Subject: ADS visibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:36 PM -0400 9/26/01, Grant Barrett wrote: >(Aaargh. Enter key in wrong place.) > >> My wife, Hollis, was wearing her spectacular ADS shirt at a Celtic Day >> festival last weekend when a phonology teacher at SUNY New Paltz >> engaged her in a conversation about the ADS. She had NEVER heard of >> it. How could this be? Don't instructors tell their students about >> professional societies? > >As a student I'll respond by saying that I recently gave a short oral >presentation in a French conversation class about the curious pleonasm of >"loup-garou" and much of the class hadn't heard of the OED and wasn't quite >sure what etymology was. Still more were surprised to find that there is >actually a difference between dictionaries; I suppose they had been >wondering their whole short lives why there were so many dictionaries >republishing identical material. > One problem may be the locution "the dictionary", which suggests there is really only one, like "the Bible" (maybe with slightly different wording, as in the latter case, but essentially the same, chapter and verse). It then turns into "the Dictionary". Of course, the same problem arises with "the Encyclopedia", but that's not OUR concern. larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Sep 26 17:18:11 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 13:18:11 EDT Subject: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) Message-ID: [It was this message, not the one about the Big Bang and Fred Hoyle, that went AWOL. My apologies. I hope nobody hurt a finger hitting the DELETE key.] In a message dated 09/25/2001 2:55:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET writes: > Oh, and I forgot to mention Colt revolvers (Hartford). Samuel Colt had the inspiration for his revolver (not the first one ever invented, but the first practical one) while on a sea voyage, and after getting a patent in 1836 he started manufacturing revolvers not in Connecticut but in Paterson, New Jersey. The model he produced is known as the "Paterson Colt" and is a valued collector's item. Colt went broke in 1842. In 1846 or 1847 he and Samuel Walker of the Texas Rangers came up with a new model, known as the "Walker Colt". Many years ago I saw one in a pawnshop, with a price tag of $1500. I haven't found out when Colt set up his factory in Hartford. You forgot to mention "The Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court", who was originally a foreman in Colt's Hartford plant. Another famous firearm maker in Connecticut is Winchester. Oliver Winchester, who at one time was Lieutenant Governor of Connecticut, hired a man named B. Tyler Henry to redesign a firearm in which he had a financial interest. The result was the Henry Rifle, a famous Civil War weapon (though not to be confused with the Spencer, "the gun the Yankees loaded on Sunday and fired all week."). In 1866 a new version of the Henry was sold under the Winchester name. Incidentally, after 1873 Colt sold a .44 caliber revolver (identical except in caliber to the Colt .45 "Peacemaker") which used the same ".44-40" ammunition as the Model 1873 Winchester carbine. And speaking of New Haven, has anyone found citational evidence whether Lender's Bagels of New Haven antedated the OED citations? - Jim Landau (from South Jersey. Paterson is in North Joisey) P.S. sandwiched in my e-inbox between the e-mails on "Whiffle Ball" versus "Wiffle Ball" was a piece of spam on "Wisk" cleaner. From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Wed Sep 26 20:21:47 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:21:47 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 01:02 PM 9/26/01 +0800, you wrote: >At 12:36 PM -0400 9/26/01, Grant Barrett wrote: >>(Aaargh. Enter key in wrong place.) >> >>> My wife, Hollis, was wearing her spectacular ADS shirt at a Celtic Day >>> festival last weekend when a phonology teacher at SUNY New Paltz >>> engaged her in a conversation about the ADS. She had NEVER heard of >>> it. How could this be? Don't instructors tell their students about >>> professional societies? >> >>As a student I'll respond by saying that I recently gave a short oral >>presentation in a French conversation class about the curious pleonasm of >>"loup-garou" and much of the class hadn't heard of the OED and wasn't quite >>sure what etymology was. Still more were surprised to find that there is >>actually a difference between dictionaries; I suppose they had been >>wondering their whole short lives why there were so many dictionaries >>republishing identical material. >One problem may be the locution "the dictionary", which suggests >there is really only one, like "the Bible" (maybe with slightly >different wording, as in the latter case, but essentially the same, >chapter and verse). It then turns into "the Dictionary". Of course, >the same problem arises with "the Encyclopedia", but that's not OUR >concern. > >larry I have an undergrad this quarter who insists that "Noah Webster's Dictionary" is the bible of pronunciation and usage. Ugh! (He doesn't know the difference between Noah's and the modern Websters, of course.) _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Sep 26 21:09:39 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:09:39 EDT Subject: ADS visibility Message-ID: In a message dated 09/26/2001 4:26:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU writes: > I have an undergrad this quarter who insists that "Noah Webster's > Dictionary" is the bible of pronunciation and usage. Ugh! (He doesn't > know the difference between Noah's and the modern Websters, of course.) Maybe it will help if you tell him that the present "Webster's" was written by Noah's daughter Merriam. - Jim Landau From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Sep 26 21:26:37 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:26:37 EDT Subject: ADS visibility & madman Message-ID: Grant Barrett writes: << I suspect we need our own madman to write about >> We do have one. His name is Edward H. Rulloff. Dick Bailey has written a great book about him, which, foolishly, major publishers haven't cared to look at. You can see stuff about him at http://www-personal.umich.edu/~rwbailey/Rulloff.html - Allan Metcalf From gbarrett at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Sep 26 21:41:33 2001 From: gbarrett at COLUMBIA.EDU (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:41:33 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility & madman In-Reply-To: <163.1815e33.28e3a20d@aol.com> Message-ID: On 9/26/01 17:26, "AAllan at AOL.COM" wrote: > Grant Barrett writes: > > << I suspect we need our own madman to write about >> > > We do have one. His name is Edward H. Rulloff. Dick Bailey has written a > great book about him, which, foolishly, major publishers haven't cared to > look at. You can see stuff about him at > > http://www-personal.umich.edu/~rwbailey/Rulloff.html Also about the trial and legal issues: http://chnm.gmu.edu/aq/photos/frames/essay03.htm -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Sep 26 22:06:31 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:06:31 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility & madman Message-ID: Chicking the source recommended by A Allen, I learn that Ruloff "had been a botanical physician, jackleg lawyer, schoolmaster, itinerant lecturer, phrenologist, photographer, mechanical inventor and, in his final incarnation, philologist�all borderline professions that had traditionally served as an avenue to public respectability for gifted, ambitious, or unprincipled men of little means." Can we all form up in three lines? The gifted over there, the ambitious along the wall, and the unprincipled right here. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Grant Barrett Date: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 5:41 pm Subject: Re: ADS visibility & madman > On 9/26/01 17:26, "AAllan at AOL.COM" wrote: > > > Grant Barrett writes: > > > > << I suspect we need our own madman to write about >> > > > > We do have one. His name is Edward H. Rulloff. Dick Bailey has > written a > > great book about him, which, foolishly, major publishers haven't > cared to > > look at. You can see stuff about him at > > > > http://www-personal.umich.edu/~rwbailey/Rulloff.html > > Also about the trial and legal issues: > > http://chnm.gmu.ed > > > > > -- > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > http://www.worldnewyork.org/ > New York Loves You Back > From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Wed Sep 26 23:14:54 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:14:54 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility & madman Message-ID: What about those of us who fit in more than one line? John Baker, Jackleg Lawyer and Wannabe Philologist > -----Original Message----- > From: George Thompson [SMTP:george.thompson at NYU.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:07 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: ADS visibility & madman > > Chicking the source recommended by A Allen, I learn that Ruloff > "had been a botanical physician, jackleg lawyer, schoolmaster, > itinerant lecturer, phrenologist, photographer, mechanical inventor > and, in his final incarnation, philologist-all borderline professions > that had traditionally served as an avenue to public respectability for > gifted, ambitious, or unprincipled men of little means." > > Can we all form up in three lines? The gifted over there, the > ambitious along the wall, and the unprincipled right here. > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African > Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > From Hixmaddog at AOL.COM Wed Sep 26 23:17:17 2001 From: Hixmaddog at AOL.COM (Steve Hicks) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:17:17 EDT Subject: ADS visibility & madman Message-ID: >>I have an undergrad this quarter who insists that "Noah Webster's >>Dictionary" is the bible of pronunciation and usage. Ugh! (He doesn't >>know the difference between Noah's and the modern Websters, of course.) Probably not even marginally apropos to "ADS visibility and madman:" Sockless Jerry Simpson, Kansas Congressman in the late 19th Century, in an impassioned tribute to the great Daniel Webster, asked, "And who among us can forget his monumental Dictionary ?" When a colleague whispered to him, "NOAH wrote the dictionary." Simpson hissed sotto voce, "Noah built the ark, you idiot." Steve Hicks Hicks Information -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Hixmaddog at AOL.COM Wed Sep 26 23:35:16 2001 From: Hixmaddog at AOL.COM (Steve Hicks) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:35:16 EDT Subject: Jackleg Message-ID: Anyone have a quick take on the derivation of "jackleg"...or the variant I sometimes hear, "jakeleg" ? And any connection to the "jake brakes" posted as prohibited in almost every town in western Kansas on this summer's trip ? Steve Hicks Hicks Information -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Sep 26 23:37:41 2001 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:37:41 -0600 Subject: ADS visibility In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010926162021.03be0400@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: A surprising number of people think old Noah's still alive and that he wrote all the dictionaries (well, maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration . . .) Then Noah also gets mixed up in people's minds with Daniel. But how can we expect people to know about dictionaries when virtually nothing is taught about them in most schools. I wonder if this student of Beverly's owns (or has seen) the reprint of Webster's 1828 dictionary that is published by a religious organization as the only true dictionary or something like that, because of Webster's definitions of terms like 'morality' and 'democracy', etc. I picked up a brochure somewhere (can't find it now). It actually seems to be a rather good deal for anyone looking for this dictionary since, as I understand it, it is simply a straight reprint that costs under $30 (I think!) Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 1533 Early Drive Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 3K1 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 On Wednesday, September 26, 2001 2:22 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > > I have an undergrad this quarter who insists that "Noah Webster's > Dictionary" is the bible of pronunciation and usage. Ugh! (He doesn't > know the difference between Noah's and the modern Websters, of course.) > > _____________________________________________ > Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics > Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 > Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 > http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Sep 26 23:56:59 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:56:59 -0700 Subject: ADS visibility & madman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm devastated by this exchange, which is debunking all of those eternal verities that I've relied on all these years. Next thing you know, somebody will be claiming that Jesus didn't write the Bible! (MUST I add ":)" ?) **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Thu Sep 27 00:24:01 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:24:01 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility In-Reply-To: <000701c146e4$3c2aa4c0$11820a0a@vneufeldt.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: I'm sure my student has no idea when Noah lived. But thanks for the reference, Vicki; I'll look it up! (And to whoever mentioned "Noah's daughter Merriam"--love it!) At 05:37 PM 9/26/01 -0600, you wrote: >A surprising number of people think old Noah's still alive and that he wrote >all the dictionaries (well, maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration . . .) >Then Noah also gets mixed up in people's minds with Daniel. > >But how can we expect people to know about dictionaries when virtually >nothing is taught about them in most schools. > >I wonder if this student of Beverly's owns (or has seen) the reprint of >Webster's 1828 dictionary that is published by a religious organization as >the only true dictionary or something like that, because of Webster's >definitions of terms like 'morality' and 'democracy', etc. I picked up a >brochure somewhere (can't find it now). It actually seems to be a rather >good deal for anyone looking for this dictionary since, as I understand it, >it is simply a straight reprint that costs under $30 (I think!) > >Victoria > >Victoria Neufeldt >1533 Early Drive >Saskatoon, Sask. >S7H 3K1 >Canada >Tel: 306-955-8910 > > >On Wednesday, September 26, 2001 2:22 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > > > > I have an undergrad this quarter who insists that "Noah Webster's > > Dictionary" is the bible of pronunciation and usage. Ugh! (He doesn't > > know the difference between Noah's and the modern Websters, of course.) > > > > _____________________________________________ > > Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics > > Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 > > Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 > > http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm > > _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Thu Sep 27 00:26:40 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:26:40 -0400 Subject: Jackleg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I saw signs about not putting on "jake brakes" as I approached the Indiana Dunes lakeshore this summer, but I can't recall the meaning: Are they the puff-noisy screech brakes big trucks use? At 07:35 PM 9/26/01 -0400, you wrote: >Anyone have a quick take on the derivation >of "jackleg"...or the variant I sometimes hear, >"jakeleg" ? > >And any connection to the "jake brakes" >posted as prohibited in almost every town in >western Kansas on this summer's trip ? > > > Steve Hicks > Hicks Information _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From pds at VISI.COM Thu Sep 27 04:37:04 2001 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 23:37:04 -0500 Subject: More 9.11-Related Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Box cutter Although it was not hard to guess what this is, the term was new to me. I know the implement as a "utility knife". Is this regional, or am I just overly sheltered? Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Thu Sep 27 07:40:26 2001 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 03:40:26 -0400 Subject: More 9.11-Related Words Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Kysilko" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 00:37 Subject: Re: More 9.11-Related Words > Box cutter > > Although it was not hard to guess what this is, the term was new to me. I > know the implement as a "utility knife". Is this regional, or am I just > overly sheltered? AKA "razor knife". "Box cutter" has been current in the NYC are for probably about seven years, if not a little more, due to its popularity as weapon among teenagers and school students. A Lexis-Nexis search should get you plenty of hits in the Daily News and NY Post. As far as outside NYC goes, I couldn't say. bkd From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Thu Sep 27 09:38:48 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:38:48 +0100 Subject: ADS visibility In-Reply-To: <000701c146e4$3c2aa4c0$11820a0a@vneufeldt.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: --On Wednesday, September 26, 2001 5:37 pm -0600 Victoria Neufeldt wrote: > But how can we expect people to know about dictionaries when virtually > nothing is taught about them in most schools. But then the question becomes--whose responsibility is it to change this? When I organized a session on "Dictionaries and the Classroom" for MLA, all but one of the dozen or so abstracts received (advertised for through DSNA, ADS, and MLA) were about dictionaries in the college (or grad school) classroom. Now, I know I would've received a different set of abstracts if I had been organizing at the NCTE, but would those abstracts have been lexicographically informed? The DSNA formed a taskforce on dictionaries and the classroom that went no where. So...what are we doing about the state of dictionary (and language and dialect) teaching in the grade school (or even high school) classroom? Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Thu Sep 27 09:42:10 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:42:10 +0100 Subject: More 9.11-Related Words In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010926233704.00a22ea0@pop.visi.com> Message-ID: --On Wednesday, September 26, 2001 11:37 pm -0500 Tom Kysilko wrote: > Box cutter > > Although it was not hard to guess what this is, the term was new to me. I > know the implement as a "utility knife". Is this regional, or am I just > overly sheltered? In the UK media, especially at the beginning when reports were just coming in, they'd say "box cutters--by which the Americans presumably mean 'Stanley knives'" or "box cutters--which we think might be something like Stanley knives". Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Sep 27 09:43:19 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:43:19 +0100 Subject: Jackleg Message-ID: Jackleg: seems to to find its ultimate source in the UK-wide 18C/19C dialect _jack-a-legs_, a large, single-bladed clasp knife, usu. with a broad, square blade. Thence seen as the type of knife a slapdash or unskilled caprenter might use rather than more sophisticated tools and appears in US in mid-19C as the simple 'unskilled', with alternates _jakeleg_ and _jack-legged_. Noun form deals with various incompetent, unskilled or unprincipled professionals or workers, esp. the jackleg preacher (although he can be simply an itinerant). _Jake brakes_ are beyond me, but there might, given _jakeleg_ be a link. Jonathon Green From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 27 10:52:16 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:52:16 -0400 Subject: FW: More 9.11-Related Words Message-ID: The difference between a box cutter and a utility knife is that the first is thin and very simple, just a thin metal sleeve with a slot for a razor blade held by a very thin metal frame. The frame slides within the sleeve, and the blade is exposed at one end. It was made for people who open boxes as part of their job, as stockers at grocery stores. It is very small and light, and so easily concealable -- the reason it became popular with street hoods, and now hijackers. A utility knife is a much larger and sturdier thing, with a true handle that fits well in the hand. It too has a sliding frame within, and typically uses one-sided razor blades, but with stouter blades than do box cutters. It is used in construction, for cutting carpet, wallboard, etc. They are also called Stanley knives, certainly in the UK, and in parts of the US, as Stanley Tools sold many of them with their name on the side. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Bruce Dykes Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 3:40 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: More 9.11-Related Words ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Kysilko" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 00:37 Subject: Re: More 9.11-Related Words > Box cutter > > Although it was not hard to guess what this is, the term was new to me. I > know the implement as a "utility knife". Is this regional, or am I just > overly sheltered? AKA "razor knife". "Box cutter" has been current in the NYC are for probably about seven years, if not a little more, due to its popularity as weapon among teenagers and school students. A Lexis-Nexis search should get you plenty of hits in the Daily News and NY Post. As far as outside NYC goes, I couldn't say. bkd From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 27 11:12:04 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:12:04 -0400 Subject: FW: ADS visibility Message-ID: Lynne M makes a good point. One problem is that in the noncollege classroom, one has to get the attention of kids who likely are more used to looking things up online, not in books. This is merely anecdotal, but I've been told by grade school teachers that they cannot easily get their kids to use the book dictionaries that are already in the classrooms. The younger set has become enamored of online reference tools, and changing their habits will not be easy. The idea of dictionary training in grade schools is worth pursuing. One needs to go to the school administrators, I think, and see what the reaction is. Then be ready to teach about online tools, and introduce the book along the way. Fortunately, there are several excellent American dictionaries online and on CD, so the products are out there. I tend to look things up a lot in my work, and have been at it for a while, going back to high school. I am pretty fast it at by now, but I still believe that 8 times out of 10, one can find a specific alphabetic entry faster in a book than in an electronic dictionary, even if it is open in the background on one's computer. And of course it is much easier to read from a page than a screen, thanks to the hugely better contrast and resolution of printed pages. The advantage of the electronic products comes more in the ability to search across the entire text using Boolean tools. But for the majority of instances for which most "laypeople" use dictionaries -- to check spelling, meaning, and word division -- the book is better, being faster, much cheaper, more readily accessible, and requiring no electricity. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Lynne Murphy Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 5:39 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: ADS visibility --On Wednesday, September 26, 2001 5:37 pm -0600 Victoria Neufeldt wrote: > But how can we expect people to know about dictionaries when virtually > nothing is taught about them in most schools. But then the question becomes--whose responsibility is it to change this? When I organized a session on "Dictionaries and the Classroom" for MLA, all but one of the dozen or so abstracts received (advertised for through DSNA, ADS, and MLA) were about dictionaries in the college (or grad school) classroom. Now, I know I would've received a different set of abstracts if I had been organizing at the NCTE, but would those abstracts have been lexicographically informed? The DSNA formed a taskforce on dictionaries and the classroom that went no where. So...what are we doing about the state of dictionary (and language and dialect) teaching in the grade school (or even high school) classroom? Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Sep 27 11:07:06 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:07:06 -0400 Subject: Dictionaries (was Re: ADS visibility) In-Reply-To: <2533918.3210575928@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Lynne Murphy wrote: >and the classroom that went no where. So...what are we doing about the >state of dictionary (and language and dialect) teaching in the grade school >(or even high school) classroom? I cannot answer that question, but I can tell you what I do about it at u. level. For many, many years, I have routinely included a unit on dictionaries in every upper-level lx course I teach. My usual tack is to ask a humanities ref librarian ( who is familiar with social science databases, etc.) to do a hands-on presentation in the library on dictionaries, databases, and lx atlases. Then I either give a library assignment that includes dictionary questions or include one question on dictionaries on the take-home midterm exam. Almost everything my students learn is news to them. Bethany From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Sep 27 11:04:04 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:04:04 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility focus Message-ID: This thread is very interesting. However, we seem to have drifted some distance from the original thought. How should each of us raise the visibility of ADS? Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Sep 27 11:14:02 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:14:02 -0400 Subject: Greengrocer's apostrophe Message-ID: >From an internet ad: Keeps American's Online Bethany From hopkins at UTA.FI Thu Sep 27 11:26:25 2001 From: hopkins at UTA.FI (John D. Hopkins) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:26:25 +0300 Subject: Was the box-cutter used by the terrorists the same as Frank Abate described? Message-ID: Dear All, My understanding (from working in the family grocery store in central Missouri decades back) of a box cutter was exactly as Frank Abate just described it -- I still have one of the small razor-blade models at home, about 3.5 inches long. But is this what the terrorists used on 11 September? Have there been any pictures or detailed descriptions of the terrorist box-cutters in the U.S. media? My students had been wondering how such a small device could have been so intimidating (the razor blade edge nonwithstanding). I recently used the Google Images Searcher to see what came up with "box cutter", and the first image is of a "Szabo box-cutter with sheath" via the www.bladeart.com/artists/laci_szabo (etc) link. This device looks deadly indeed, a cross between brass knuckles and a combat knife. The description (despite it being called a box-cutter) mainly refers to its use in fighting, although for the other models there are crate-opening references. A trained terrorist with this thing in hand would be formidable indeed. But back to my question. Has there been an exact description of what type of box-cutter was actually used? The only reference I've seen is that it was of Swiss manufacture, purchased in Switzerland. To me, that would seem to rule out the small, simple razor-blade box cutter that I have used and Frank Abate described. JOHN ___________________________________________________ John D. Hopkins University of Tampere, Finland From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Thu Sep 27 11:58:54 2001 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:58:54 -0400 Subject: Was the box-cutter used by the terrorists the same as Frank Abate described? Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John D. Hopkins" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 07:26 Subject: Was the box-cutter used by the terrorists the same as Frank Abate described? > But back to my question. Has there been an exact description of what type > of box-cutter was actually used? The only reference I've seen is that it > was of Swiss manufacture, purchased in Switzerland. To me, that would > seem to rule out the small, simple razor-blade box cutter that I have used > and Frank Abate described. Sadly, the only flight likely to give up its history in any sort of detail is flight 93, and then only if we're lucky. The primary reports of box cutters and knives came from cell phone calls from passengers on one or more of the flights, so we're also relying on what *they* interpret as a box cutter in the middle of what must surely have been a panicked environment. bkd From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Thu Sep 27 12:20:14 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:20:14 +0100 Subject: school classrooms (was visibility) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bethany tells what she does in her classroom, which is helpful. I think most of us do similar things. The problem is, however, that most people (even most people who go through higher education) will not go through one of our classes and get this info. I think something more reaching is needed, and I'll concede that this isn't the best forum for it. But no one seems to know what the best forum is. For one thing, we need to reach teachers, but at least as importantly, we need to reach the people who are teaching future teachers. I know a lot of us do, as linguistics courses are included in many education degrees, but they're not integrated enough into the education program--we don't show teachers _how_ to use dictionaries in the classroom. Erin McKean did a study on what teachers feel they do/need for dictionary skills teaching, which is published in last year's _Dictionaries_. The problem, of course, is that teachers are already expected to do way too much in their limited time, so dictionary skills often fall through the cracks. --On Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:12 am -0400 Frank Abate wrote: > Lynne M makes a good point. One problem is that in the noncollege > classroom, one has to get the attention of kids who likely are more used > to looking things up online, not in books. This is merely anecdotal, but > I've been told by grade school teachers that they cannot easily get their > kids to use the book dictionaries that are already in the classrooms. > The younger set has become enamored of online reference tools, and > changing their habits will not be easy. I'm not sure that we need to change their habits. Yes, it's good to learn how to use books, but if they're going to use on-line dictionaries, then they still need dictionary skills. (This seems to go along with the assumption I saw in a lot of Erin's responses from teachers--assuming that dictionary skills = alphabetization and use of guide words.) My impression from students coming into university is that they're given very little training on critical use of on-line sources. The issue of "the dictionary" versus dictionaries is as relevant for on-line use as for printed ones. Skills/knowledge relating to about you should look for in a dictionary, how many grains of salt you should allow, how to use part-of-speech info or examples or etymologies, etc. are as relevant to on-line dictionaries as to print dictionaries. Perhaps the way to get more time in the classroom is to frame dictionary skills as information skills rather than as book skills. Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 27 12:24:16 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:24:16 -0400 Subject: box cutter illustrated Message-ID: All, The following web page, from a company that sells box cutters, has illustrations. The first, third, and last items depicted are box cutters. Please note that the first and third pictures show a protective sleeve covering the cutting edge of the blade. Also, the illustrations, from the side, do not show the thinness of the items. The same page has a link to "utility knives": http://www.themodernspecialtiescompany.com/cutters/cutters.html Addressing other recent postings on this, first as to how a box cutter could cause alarm, I think it would to those who know of its use as a weapon. And whoever used the term, whether one of the victims on the flights or someone gathering evidence after the fact, I doubt they would have used the term "box cutter" in reference to anything else, as it is quite distinctive in appearance, and is certainly well known as a weapon to people in law enforcement. Frank Abate From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Thu Sep 27 13:23:52 2001 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:23:52 -0500 Subject: Jake brakes what, not where Message-ID: a system of using engine compression as a method of breaking heavy duty trucks. The noise is in effect the unmuffled engine. Where the name came from is unknown to me. From mnewman at QC.EDU Thu Sep 27 13:29:16 2001 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:29:16 -0400 Subject: FW: ADS visibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here are six several interrelated reasons for general absence of linguistic issues in k-12 schools in the US including : 1. Most language arts curricula emphasize literary analysis and basic literacy skills, such as reading and writing. 2. Most state tests by which student progress is measured reflect these and only these goals. For example the neither the NYS English Language Arts (ELA) regents exam nor the 4th and 8th grade tests leading up to it have a single question on metalinguistic knowledge. It is possible to get 100% on these tests and not know what a noun is or what a definition is, for that matter. This is a "new wave" or progressive test which assumes a genre-based definition of literacy, meaning it's not all decontextualized skills. 3. It is generally believed (rightly or wrongly) that declarative knowledge of language, including but not limited to dictionary skills and the types of issues addressed by ADS, is irrelevant to development of writing and reading skills. 4. There is no time in the language arts class for anything extra that cannot be justified on the basis of helping kids pass the tests, which is on reason point 3 is important. When Walt Wolfram developed his dialect diversity program in North Carolina, he cleverly put it in Social Studies, not ELA, and in a grade with no test at the end and curriculum focused on North Carolina History. In other words, he snuck it in the back door. 5. Most ELA teachers are former English majors, trained in departments that emphasize literature or teach literature as English. They are also attracted to those programs and fear anything vaguely formal in nature. 6. People who work in English Education tend to be former ELA teachers, who research these areas and emphasize them in their teacher education classes. Most that I am aware of have one class on language, something like "pedagogical grammar." I managed to insert a sociolinguistics class in one prominent program I used to work in, but it had never occurred to them until I mentioned it. I got it in because it addressed diversity! The only way out I can see is to create a scandal on the lines of "Kids today can graduate without knowing what a noun is!" "Kids today can graduate without knowing how to use a dictionary!" for public consumption and talk about "dialect diversity" among academics. And then look to the research literature that shows how that language ignorance can despite what some educators may think does impact Standard English production. -- Michael Newman Assistant Professor of Applied Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Sep 27 13:43:19 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:43:19 -0400 Subject: Spanish linguist In-Reply-To: <3BB32868.26A6841D@mtnhome.com> Message-ID: Colleagues, I am looking for a Spanish linguist with good proficiency in the language to teach one undergraduate and one graduate "topics in linguistics" (your choice, e.g., dialectology, discourse, syntax) course and an advanced course in pronunciation (three courses in all) for the Spring Semester 2002 only. ABD or recent PhD. Please write to me directly (preston at msu,.edu) offering either yourself or suggesting a name. I do not know some important details (e.g., salary) so don't even ask me, but I will put you in touch with the person who does immediately. The job is not completely without promise for the future, but that cannot be officially stated. Thanks, dInIs -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Sep 27 10:28:35 2001 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:28:35 -0400 Subject: More 9.11-Related Words In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010926233704.00a22ea0@pop.visi.com> Message-ID: I've always called a box cutter a "utility knife," too. But I'm pretty sure I learned the term from a do-it-yourselfer's manual rather than from speakers in whatever region I happened to be living in at the time. Joanne Despres From paul at IMPLICATURE.COM Thu Sep 27 13:40:40 2001 From: paul at IMPLICATURE.COM (Paul Ivsin) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:40:40 -0500 Subject: Jake brakes what, not where Message-ID: The Jacobs Manufacturing Company (established 1903, A. I. Jacobs, president, now known as Jacobs Vehicle Systems) developed "Jake Brakes" in 1960. Product specs are on their web site, http://www.jakebrakes.com ... Paul Ivsin paul at ivsin.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul M. Johnson" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 8:23 AM Subject: Jake brakes what, not where a system of using engine compression as a method of breaking heavy duty trucks. The noise is in effect the unmuffled engine. Where the name came from is unknown to me. From bergdahl at OHIO.EDU Thu Sep 27 14:28:05 2001 From: bergdahl at OHIO.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:28:05 -0400 Subject: Jackleg In-Reply-To: <010301c14738$d86ce380$023264c0@green> Message-ID: > > _Jake brakes_ are beyond me, but there might, given _jakeleg_ be a link. > > Jonathon Green Related to the "jack" of "I don't care jackshit about..." [which isn't in DARE]? My conjecture is that it's related to Jacques [=toilet] and thus is used to attach a negative connotation. Hence we have "jackstone' = wasterock associated with coal; "jackpine" = smaller than the norm; "jackass brandy" = poor quality liquor; "jackass clover" =a rank-smelling plant; "jackfish" = freshwater fish that are not good to eat; "jack-fool" a great fool. [all < DARE, vol 3] Seems like a negative intensifier to me: "jack-brakes" are brakes that are decidedly inferior. _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From bergdahl at OHIO.EDU Thu Sep 27 14:32:54 2001 From: bergdahl at OHIO.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:32:54 -0400 Subject: Was the box-cutter used by the terrorists the same as Frank Abate described? In-Reply-To: <03ed01c1474b$ce738100$5102020a@graphnet.com> Message-ID: You forget that "boxcutters" were found stored under the seats of planes grounded Sept 11th and found in the overhead luggage compartments of other jets on Sept 17th. --On Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:58 AM -0400 Bruce Dykes wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John D. Hopkins" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 07:26 > Subject: Was the box-cutter used by the terrorists the same as Frank Abate > described? > >> But back to my question. Has there been an exact description of what >> type of box-cutter was actually used? The only reference I've seen is >> that it was of Swiss manufacture, purchased in Switzerland. To me, that >> would seem to rule out the small, simple razor-blade box cutter that I >> have used and Frank Abate described. > > Sadly, the only flight likely to give up its history in any sort of detail > is flight 93, and then only if we're lucky. The primary reports of box > cutters and knives came from cell phone calls from passengers on one or > more of the flights, so we're also relying on what *they* interpret as a > box cutter in the middle of what must surely have been a panicked > environment. > > bkd David Bergdahl _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Sep 27 15:36:25 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:36:25 EDT Subject: ADS visibility & madman Message-ID: In a message dated 9/26/01 5:30:01 PM, AAllan at AOL.COM writes: << Grant Barrett writes: << I suspect we need our own madman to write about >> We do have one. >> And then there is Barry Popik ... ! From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Sep 27 15:42:07 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:42:07 EDT Subject: ADS visibility & madman Message-ID: In a message dated 9/26/01 7:58:50 PM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: << Next thing you know, somebody will be claiming that Jesus didn't write the Bible! >> Jesus couldn't have written The Bible: Jesus did not speak English. From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Sep 27 15:44:51 2001 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:44:51 -0400 Subject: ..Jake Brake trademark.. Message-ID: Since the name Jake Brake is a trademark, in some areas of the country, a concern with using such a name on highway signs was raised earlier this year. I seem to remember that a Pennsylvania town took their 'No Jake Brake' signs down, on the advice of their solicitor. The solicitor's advice might have been preceded by the reception of a little note from the manufacturer and holder of the trademark. George Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Sep 27 16:09:37 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:09:37 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" Message-ID: There's a bit of radio spam I've been hearing lately, on NPR, in connection with some car : "pre-owned." On the model of pre-war, prehistoric, preview, this ought to mean not yet taken possession of, but I think is actually intended as a euphemism for "used." Sloppiness or intentional ambiguity? A. Murie From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Sep 27 16:22:11 2001 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:22:11 -0700 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Pre-owned" meaning "used" has been common in Seattle for years. However, I can't recall the year I first heard it. Early 1990s maybe? allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, sagehen wrote: > There's a bit of radio spam I've been hearing lately, on NPR, in > connection with some car : "pre-owned." On the model of pre-war, > prehistoric, preview, this ought to mean not yet taken possession of, but > I think is actually intended as a euphemism for "used." Sloppiness or > intentional ambiguity? > A. Murie > From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Sep 27 16:14:22 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:14:22 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have heard "pre-owned" as a euphemism for "used" for many years - initially only w/luxury autos. Bethany From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Thu Sep 27 16:25:21 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:25:21 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" Message-ID: Ditto in Boston. It's sometimes spelled out more fully as "previously owned." I don't think there's any intentional ambiguity; it's just the best euphemism that the industry could come up with. John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: A. Maberry [SMTP:maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU] > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 12:22 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "pre-owned" > > "Pre-owned" meaning "used" has been common in Seattle for years. However, > I can't recall the year I first heard it. Early 1990s maybe? > > allen > maberry at u.washington.edu > > On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, sagehen wrote: > > > There's a bit of radio spam I've been hearing lately, on NPR, in > > connection with some car : "pre-owned." On the model of pre-war, > > prehistoric, preview, this ought to mean not yet taken possession of, > but > > I think is actually intended as a euphemism for "used." Sloppiness or > > intentional ambiguity? > > A. Murie > > From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Sep 27 16:24:48 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:24:48 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" Message-ID: pre-own is an entry in OEDs with an e.q. from 1964. pre-owned is an entry in the supplement to MW3. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Sep 27 16:39:32 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:39:32 -0400 Subject: Jackleg In-Reply-To: <010301c14738$d86ce380$023264c0@green> Message-ID: On 9/27/01 05:43, "Jonathon Green" wrote: > Jackleg: seems to to find its ultimate source in the UK-wide 18C/19C dialect > _jack-a-legs_, a large, single-bladed clasp knife, usu. with a broad, square > blade. Thence seen as the type of knife a slapdash or unskilled caprenter > might use rather than more sophisticated tools and appears in US in mid-19C > as the simple 'unskilled', with alternates _jakeleg_ and _jack-legged_. Noun > form deals with various incompetent, unskilled or unprincipled professionals > or workers, esp. the jackleg preacher (although he can be simply an > itinerant). The OED note on jackleg (see jockteleg) is interesting: "[Note. Lord Hailes Spec. Sc. Gloss. (c1776) 18, says ŒThe etymology of this word remained unknown till not many years ago an old knife was found having this inscription Jacques de Liege, the name of the cutler¹. A similar statement is made by Smiles Industr. Biog. (1863) 101, and Jevons Coal Question (1866) 91. The former says ŒJacques de Liege, a famous foreign cutler whose knives were as well known throughout Europe, as those of Rodgers or Mappin are now¹. On the face of it this account is plausible: it was not uncommon in Sc. for de to be corrupted to the, e.g. the Bruce; the change of d to t after k is also phonetically simple. But, for the present, Scottish antiquaries have failed to find any confirmation, in knife or document, of Hailes's statement; and inquiries made for us at Liege have been equally unsuccessful in finding any trace of Jacques the cutler.]" -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Sep 27 16:42:17 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:42:17 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility Message-ID: On 9/27/01 07:12, "Frank Abate" wrote: > Lynne M makes a good point. One problem is that in the noncollege > classroom, one has to get the attention of kids who likely are more used to > looking things up online, not in books. I wish that this were true for my classmates at Columbia. Many of them don't know that they have through their costly tuition free access to the OED online, Lexis-Nexis, Dow Jones, JSTOR and many other fee-based online services. What they typically do is an unsophisticated, unrefined search in whatever search engine is the browser default and take the first source that looks good. So, Frank, I would amend your point and say, "kids who likely are more used to looking things up online, without discretion as to the quality or primacy of the source, and not in books." For the average Internet user, books will win on quality every time. > I tend to look things up a lot in my work, and have been at it for a while, > going back to high school. I am pretty fast it at by now, but I still > believe that 8 times out of 10, one can find a specific alphabetic entry > faster in a book than in an electronic dictionary, even if it is open in the > background on one's computer. I prefer books, too, but I work away from my shelves much of the time. One of my favorite tools for looking up quick definitions and spellings online is MacDICT, which uses the DICT protocol to search across multiple dictionaries and reference works, including Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary Version published 1913, the Elements Database, the WordNet database, the US Gazetteer Place and Zipcode Files from the US Census, the Jargon File, the Free Online Dictionary of Computing, Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary, Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary, the Devil's Dictionary (my favorite), the CIA World Factbook, and the VERA list of computational acronyms. About the DICT dictionary protocol: http://www.dict.org/ including a list of client software for various platforms: http://www.dict.org/links.html My preferred DICT client for Macintosh computers: http://www.bainsware.com/macdict/ -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Sep 27 16:41:51 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:41:51 -0400 Subject: Was the box-cutter used by the terrorists the same as Frank Abate described? Message-ID: On 9/27/01 07:58, "Bruce Dykes" wrote: > Sadly, the only flight likely to give up its history in any sort of detail > is flight 93, and then only if we're lucky. The primary reports of box > cutters and knives came from cell phone calls from passengers on one or more > of the flights, so we're also relying on what *they* interpret as a box > cutter in the middle of what must surely have been a panicked environment. Box-cutters, which it is suggested were left by terrorists, have been recovered from flights that did not crash and from automobiles supposedly used by them. -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Sep 27 16:58:17 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:58:17 EDT Subject: my your recommendation Message-ID: It is well known that possessive pronouns (and other possessives) can function in more than one way in English, e.g., "your recommendation" may mean either 'the recommendation that you wrote' or 'the recommendation that was written on your behalf'. Two questions: 1. Can one convey the notion 'the recommendation that I wrote on your behalf' by saying "my your recommendation'? 2. If not, why not? 3. If so, why does "my your recommendation" seem unambiguous [i.e. "your my recommendation" would have to mean 'the recommendation that you wrote on my behalf'? From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Thu Sep 27 17:12:51 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:12:51 +0100 Subject: my your recommendation In-Reply-To: <14d.1aa9549.28e4b4a9@aol.com> Message-ID: --On Thursday, September 27, 2001 12:58 pm +0000 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > 1. Can one convey the notion 'the recommendation that I wrote on your > behalf' by saying "my your recommendation'? No. > 2. If not, why not? Because 'my' and 'your' are determiners, and there's only one determiner slot in at the front of a noun phrase. Same reason you can't say 'the your recommendation' or 'your that recommendation'. The only way you could do that is by reinterpreting 'your' as an adjective, but since it's still reflecting the argument structure that it would reflect when it was a determiner, there's nothing particularly adjective-y about this use, and so it's downright bad to my ear. Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Sep 27 17:14:22 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:14:22 -0700 Subject: "pre-owned" Message-ID: Bethany and all: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bethany K. Dumas" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 9:14 AM Subject: Re: "pre-owned" > I have heard "pre-owned" as a euphemism for "used" for many years - > initially only w/luxury autos. I've heard "pre-owned" for about ten years from now. I think it got started in advertising(but not necessarily just with luxury cars), as a euphemisim for "used", because "pre-owned" sounded, well, better. But people still talk about used cars, furniture, etc. Anne Gilbert From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Sep 27 17:18:40 2001 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:18:40 -0400 Subject: my your recommendation Message-ID: Some recommendations are written 'in your behalf', as opposed to 'on your behalf'. Would the possible existence of that difference answer part of one of your questions? George Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Sep 27 17:23:56 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:23:56 EDT Subject: my your recommendation Message-ID: In a message dated 9/27/01 1:14:21 PM, lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK writes: << > 1. Can one convey the notion 'the recommendation that I wrote on your > behalf' by saying "my your recommendation'? No. > 2. If not, why not? Because 'my' and 'your' are determiners, and there's only one determiner slot in at the front of a noun phrase. Same reason you can't say 'the your recommendation' or 'your that recommendation'. >> So all possessives are determiners? I find "My Alex's recommendation" worse than "My your recommendation," and "Sue's Tom's recommendation" even worse. From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Sep 27 17:17:16 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:17:16 EDT Subject: loup garou? Message-ID: << ... the curious pleonasm of >>"loup-garou" ... >> Which is what? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 27 17:16:44 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:16:44 EDT Subject: Spoofical; Criticized Loans Message-ID: SPOOFICAL Fom TIME OUT NEW YORK, Setp. 27-Oct. 4, 2001, pg. 162, col. 1: A glib and glitzy socialist spoofical (as we call this newish genre), it tickles you while winding up for a sucker punch. Whether _Urinetown_ earns its bitter irony is debatable, but the show's comic wallop cannot be understated: You are in for some roaringly good, trouser-wetting fun. (I saw URINETOWN when it opened at the Fringe Festival a while ago. My pants stayed dry...This URINETOWN review is in TONY's Fifth Annual Eating & Drinking Awards issue..."Spoofical" may be gaining popularity, but the musical spoof is not at all new--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- CRITICIZED LOANS From today's NEW YORK POST, "Expect banks to take a hit from bad loans," 27 September 2001, pg. 42, col. 1: Sources say that three government agencies will soon report a huge jump in "criticized" big loans held by banking syndicates. (...)(Col. 4--ed.) "Criticized" loans are ones that are found to be deficient in some way. It doesn't necessarily mean that the borrowers are going to default--but it also doesn't mean the loans will not go into default. From drew.danielson at CMU.EDU Thu Sep 27 17:25:24 2001 From: drew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:25:24 -0400 Subject: loup garou? Message-ID: C'est le «werewolf». http://frenchcaculture.about.com/cs/loupgarou/ http://rking.vinu.edu/loup.htm RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > << ... the curious pleonasm of > >>"loup-garou" ... >> > > Which is what? -- _______________________________________________________________________ Andrew Danielson Admin for Profs. Fedder, Gabriel Carnegie Mellon University Krogh, & Rajkumar Electrical & Computer +1 412 268-2188 Voice Engineering Department +1 412 268-3890 Fax 5000 Forbes Ave. http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~dmunk Pittsburgh, PA 15213 drew.danielson at cmu.edu _______________________________________________________________________ Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day. -- Thomas Jefferson We like all kinds of music/But I like American music best -- Gordon Gano From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Sep 27 17:15:38 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:15:38 -0700 Subject: "pre-owned" Message-ID: Allen: ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. Maberry" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 9:22 AM Subject: Re: "pre-owned" > "Pre-owned" meaning "used" has been common in Seattle for years. However, > I can't recall the year I first heard it. Early 1990s maybe? I live in Seattle, and as I said in another post, I've been hearing it for about 10 years or so. I wonder if the term originated here? Anne Gilbert From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Thu Sep 27 17:31:55 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:31:55 +0100 Subject: my your recommendation In-Reply-To: <34.1b7a5752.28e4baac@aol.com> Message-ID: --On Thursday, September 27, 2001 1:23 pm +0000 RonButters at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/27/01 1:14:21 PM, lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK writes: > > << > 1. Can one convey the notion 'the recommendation that I wrote on your >> behalf' by saying "my your recommendation'? > No. >> 2. If not, why not? > Because 'my' and 'your' are determiners, and there's only one determiner > slot in at the front of a noun phrase. Same reason you can't say 'the > your recommendation' or 'your that recommendation'. >> > > So all possessives are determiners? I find "My Alex's recommendation" > worse than "My your recommendation," and "Sue's Tom's recommendation" > even worse. I find them all just plain bad. I can only presume that you find it easier to process 'your' as an adjective (and not a determiner) than I do. I assume that you have an easier time processing 'your' that way than the others because it's lexicalized already. But I dunno--they're all just stinking bad to me. Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Sep 27 17:42:01 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:42:01 EDT Subject: loup garou? Message-ID: In a message dated 9/27/01 1:25:51 PM, drew.danielson at CMU.EDU writes: << C'est le «werewolf». http://frenchcaculture.about.com/cs/loupgarou/ http://rking.vinu.edu/loup.htm RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > << ... the curious pleonasm of > >>"loup-garou" ... >> > > Which is what? >> Yes, but what is "pleonastic" about it? (GAROU isn't in my little dictionary, either) From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Sep 27 17:37:53 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:37:53 EDT Subject: in your behalf? Message-ID: In a message dated 9/27/01 1:21:57 PM, gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU writes: << Some recommendations are written 'in your behalf,' as opposed to 'on your behalf.' Would the possible existence of that difference answer part of one of your questions? >> I don't think so, but what is the difference? I can't think of when I would ever say "in your behalf"! From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Sep 27 18:00:16 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:00:16 -0400 Subject: loup garou? In-Reply-To: <124.507917a.28e4b91c@aol.com> Message-ID: On 9/27/01 13:17, "RonButters at AOL.COM" wrote: > << ... the curious pleonasm of >>> "loup-garou" ... >> > > Which is what? The speculation I cobbled together from multiple sources puts the word changes in roughly this order (spelling, of course, being highly variable): w["a]rwolf, w["a]hrwolf, wehrwolf, werwulf (Germanic or Frankish; man-wolf) wariwulf varulf-r (Old Nordic) garwall, garwaf, garvalf (Old Northern French, 1175, from Les Lais de Marie de France; in one version of the work these three spellings are within a few lines of each other.) waroul, warou, wareu (Not sure whether these go before or after Marie de France) guaroul, garoul, garou Still meaning "werewolf." At which point the "loup" or variations from the Latin "lupus" were added back into the word to create leu garoul then the modern French loup-garou which might be literally said to mean "wolf man-wolf." It's even more fun to explain to others if you add in the Indo-European "wro," the Sanskrit "vira" and the Latin "vir" to the top of the list, and maybe tangent a little on the origin of the word "world." All speculative, but the point of the demonstration was to mark the changes between the original language of Marie de France and modern French, with reference to the Norman invasion and the creation of something resembling our English. Gilles Ménage's "Dictionnaire étymologique de la langue françoise" (1750) online at the Bibliothèque Nationale Française has some wild notions about the origin of the word (that it derives directly from the corruption of other, similar, French or Latin words that have to do with the appearance or the conduct of such creatures, without offering specific citations other than other etymologic theorizing, or that it comes from Hebrew, most of which I did not understand as I do not read Latin nor Hebrew, alas) that coordinate with nothing I found elsewhere, so I disregarded those points and stuck to those parts of his etymology that concurred with other sources. The OED has a good general etymology of werewolf, if you're interested in it, with the appropriate amount of doubt sown. -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM Thu Sep 27 17:50:35 2001 From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:50:35 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember about ten years ago, Lexus began marketing "certified pre-owned" cars, the hook being that these were previously owned cars that had been given a thorough over by Lexus dealers to be sold with some backing/warranty by the owners. The reason I specifically remember Lexus is that I watched an entire 30-minute infomercial about this sometime around 1990-92. I thought it was a pretty savvy idea on the part of Lexus to introduce their product to folks who might not normally consider buying it. Now some other luxury car marques are doing the same. I checked out BMW's pre-owned page a while back. It's still a euphemism, but laughingly clever. And I've noticed some people using it, which is weird. I accept pre-owned on paper or on the television, but I still say used in conversation. On 9/27/01 12:14 PM, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > I have heard "pre-owned" as a euphemism for "used" for many years - > initially only w/luxury autos. > > Bethany -- Bob Haas Department of English High Point University "I realise that patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone." Edith Cavell (1865-1915) From tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU Thu Sep 27 18:01:02 2001 From: tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:01:02 -0400 Subject: my your recommendation Message-ID: At least the way I speak, "Sue's Tom's recommendation" might come up in a conversation like this: "Did you get Tom's recommendation?" "Tom who?" "Ohh, I can't remember his last name. You remember Sue, used to be Wilkinson? She married him. Sue's Tom's recommendation." But that would have yet another, and more normal, structure. Thom >X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 >Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:23:56 EDT >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >Sender: American Dialect Society >From: RonButters at AOL.COM >Subject: Re: my your recommendation >Comments: To: lynnem at cogs.susx.ac.uk >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >In a message dated 9/27/01 1:14:21 PM, lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK writes: > ><< > 1. Can one convey the notion 'the recommendation that I wrote on your >> behalf' by saying "my your recommendation'? >No. >> 2. If not, why not? >Because 'my' and 'your' are determiners, and there's only one determiner >slot in at the front of a noun phrase. Same reason you can't say 'the your >recommendation' or 'your that recommendation'. >> > >So all possessives are determiners? I find "My Alex's recommendation" worse >than "My your recommendation," and "Sue's Tom's recommendation" even worse. > Thom Harrison Macon State College From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Thu Sep 27 18:31:53 2001 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:31:53 -0500 Subject: school classrooms (was visibility) Message-ID: Lynne Murphy, responding to Frank Abate's comment that > > The younger set has become enamored of online reference tools, and > > changing their habits will not be easy. by writing: > I'm not sure that we need to change their habits. Yes, it's good to learn > how to use books, but if they're going to use on-line dictionaries, then > they still need dictionary skills. (This seems to go along with the > assumption I saw in a lot of Erin's responses from teachers--assuming that > dictionary skills = alphabetization and use of guide words.) My impression > from students coming into university is that they're given very little > training on critical use of on-line sources. The issue of "the dictionary" > versus dictionaries is as relevant for on-line use as for printed ones. > Skills/knowledge relating to about you should look for in a dictionary, how > many grains of salt you should allow, how to use part-of-speech info or > examples or etymologies, etc. are as relevant to on-line dictionaries as to > print dictionaries. Perhaps the way to get more time in the classroom is > to frame dictionary skills as information skills rather than as book skills. > > Lynne My recent experience with a doctoral candidate in our College of Education suggests that we have a long way to go. I joined this student's committee at the (post-MA) prelim stage, and saw him through that, a dissertation proposal, his research, and the dissertation. When dissertation chapters started to come in, I discovered that he habitually looked to Webster's New World Dictionary as his first (and, usually, only) source for definitions, etymologies, and such. I tried to be gentle in suggesting that Academia prefers OED when we want to be high-falutin', but we'll also accept the M-W 3rd International without raising eyebrows. When additional information seems warranted, we'll generally accept second (or third or fourth) citations to Random House or American Heritage or Thordike, and specialized dictionaries when they are called for because of specialized uses of a term. But, I said, if the sole reference for dictionary questions is Webster's New World, somebody is likely to snicker. My student was thunderstruck twice. His first shock came in learning that THE dictionary doesn't exist: there are dictionaries and dictionaries. He had, honest to God, never heard of OED -- but was awed by it with his first experience. This guy's very bright; he was thunderstruck the second time when he realized that he had gotten all the way to the verge of his doctorate yet nobody had ever taken the time to tell him that the word "dictionary" has a plural form. I wish I could be sure that frontline teachers -- the BAs and MAs who are in charge at the K-12 levels, know at least a bit more than that doctoral student. (He knows lots more now -- and he got his degree at our August Convocation.) Too many of them are still ready to say that "a noun is the name of a person, place, or thing", which only shows that they haven't learned much about linguistics, either. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! IN MEMORIAM: Peggy Salovesh 25 January 1932 -- 3 March 2001 From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Sep 27 18:46:11 2001 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:46:11 -0400 Subject: in your behalf? Message-ID: Ron, Generally, a letter written 'in behalf' of someone is not solicited. In a letter of reference, the phrase indicates that someone took time to do something for which there was not otherwise an obligation, i.e., the author had not been asked to write a letter of reference. I usually think of such reference letters as being 'positive', but I guess that unsolicited negative letters of reference could also be seen as being 'in behalf' of someone. A letter written 'on behalf' of someone is one which is written either at the request of that someone or it was solicited because the author was on a list of references, i.e., the author had otherwise agreed to write a letter of reference. Thus, a recipient's evaluation of a letter of reference would include attention to the presence of the phrase: 'in behalf of' or 'on behalf of'. The above relationships are ones that I was taught, decades ago, in a Business English class, at a 2-year college. I defer to the judgment of the members of this list, as to the existence of a difference in the above phrases, i.e., I'm here to learn, and not to get ticked off. George Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University [As the members of the language programs at Ship may be quick to note, I'm not a member of their department.] From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Sep 27 19:07:45 2001 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:07:45 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is an old euphemism for these junkers. dInIs (ask the man who owns one - extra points for identifying this slogan) >There's a bit of radio spam I've been hearing lately, on NPR, in >connection with some car : "pre-owned." On the model of pre-war, >prehistoric, preview, this ought to mean not yet taken possession of, but >I think is actually intended as a euphemism for "used." Sloppiness or >intentional ambiguity? >A. Murie -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Sep 27 19:16:55 2001 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:16:55 -0400 Subject: loup garou? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ron, that'll teach you to be specific. I too wondered about it pleonasticness (pleonasticity?), not it's meaning, known to all C (or lower-grade) movie fans. dInIs >In a message dated 9/27/01 1:25:51 PM, drew.danielson at CMU.EDU writes: > ><< C'est le «werewolf». > > >http://frenchcaculture.about.com/cs/loupgarou/ > >http://rking.vinu.edu/loup.htm > > > > >RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >> > >> << ... the curious pleonasm of > >> >>"loup-garou" ... >> > >> > >> Which is what? >> > >Yes, but what is "pleonastic" about it? (GAROU isn't in my little dictionary, >either) -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU Thu Sep 27 19:12:28 2001 From: mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:12:28 -0500 Subject: my your recommendation In-Reply-To: <4172489.3210603171@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On a related note, on Friends 8/23/01, Joey explains why he is so thrilled to get to work with a particular movie director: "He's the next next Scorcese!" "The next next Scorcese?" "Right, some guy in Chicago is already the next Scorcese." -Mai _________________________________ Mai Kuha mkuha at bsuvc.bsu.edu Department of English (765) 285-8410 Ball State University From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Sep 27 20:10:51 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:10:51 -0700 Subject: "pre-owned" Message-ID: dInIs sez: >This is an old euphemism for these junkers. i have an extremely specific memory associated with this word. a sense of linguistic surprise on being confronted with a sign offering "pre-owned Cadillacs", and in a very specific place, on penn avenue close to the west reading/wyomissing border, west of reading, pa. i was in a car, going west, and i wasn't driving. this could have been no later than 1961, and probably was three or four years earlier. on the other hand, it could just be a vivid dream. arnold From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Sep 27 20:25:53 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:25:53 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >This is an old euphemism for these junkers. > >dInIs (ask the man who owns one - extra points for identifying this slogan) >-- >Dennis R. Preston Yeah, I like junkers. It's been a long time since there was a Packard owner handy to ask. AM A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Sep 27 20:43:24 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:43:24 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The earliest citation in the OED, as has been pointed out already, is dated 1964. Here's an earlier one: 1960 _Wall Street Journal_ 29 July 11 (adv't) A pre-owned cruiser in excellent condition with full equipeed bath and stainless steel galley. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Sep 27 20:47:51 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:47:51 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's a still earlier citation for "pre-owned" (OED 1964): 1956 Donald J. Lloyd _American English in Its Cultural Setting_ 517 Pre-owned televisions can be purchased. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Sep 27 21:05:46 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:05:46 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's not just autos: "While most automobiles depreciate, as they get older, small, pre-owned aircraft have typically held their value, or even appreciated in value, if they were well maintained." Chad Key, 66 Journal of Air Law & Commerce 789. COMMENT: GENERAL AVIATION IN THE NEW MILLENNIUM: PROMISING REBIRTH - OR IMMINENT EXTINCTION? (Spring 2001.) Bethany From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Sep 27 21:11:12 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:11:12 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does "pre-owned" mean something different from "used"? "He would have received exactly what he bargained for--a "pre-owned" home with a used heating plant." Jean Fleming Powers. Expanded Liability and the Intent Requirement in Third Party Beneficiary Contracts. 1993 Utah L. Rev. 67 Bethany From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Sep 27 22:20:08 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:20:08 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Extra credit for A&M! > >This is an old euphemism for these junkers. >> >>dInIs (ask the man who owns one - extra points for identifying this slogan) > >>-- >>Dennis R. Preston > >Yeah, I like junkers. It's been a long time since there was a Packard >owner handy to ask. >AM > >A&M Murie >N. Bangor NY >sagehen at westelcom.com -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Sep 27 23:12:43 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 19:12:43 -0400 Subject: pre-owned Message-ID: Clearly, I haven't been paying enough attention to upmarket ads! However, it wasn't its newness, but its silliness that I meant to call attention to. Thanks for the extra credit, dInIs. I remembered that one because I had an uncle who was himself an advertising man who drove a Packard and used to quote the slogan wryly, as a sort of acknowledgement of its effectiveness. A. Murie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 04:19:21 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:19:21 EDT Subject: Hero sandwich (August 9, 1947) Message-ID: (This continues research into the origin of the "hero" sandwich. I'd previously presented a brief 1947 item, a brief 1949 item, and a 1951 article from the NYHT--ed.) From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 9 August 1947, pg. 9, col. 6: _1,000 Grab Hero Snacks Daily_ _For Hearty Lunch on Ninth Ave._ (PHOTO CAPTION: A thousand heros a day are built for the Ninth Avenue lunch trade by Manganaro, the grocer) _Sandwich Is Built With_ _Half French Loaf, Split_ _Lengthwise, and Fillings_ By Clementine Paddleford Far off the beaten path of the epicures who eat luncheons of vichyssoise, smoked turkey and caviar in the sterile glitter of air-cooled emporiums, is the Manganaro grocery at 488 Ninth Avenue, famous for heros. A thousand men and women push, jostle, crowd to the store's long marble counter each noontime to grab up a hero, a cold beer or coffee. Some seven hundred eat lunch on the spot, another three hundred eat in the street or carry snacks back to their offices. You know the hero? A monster contraption built like a sandwich but of vaster dimensions. The ordinary size costs 35 cents. That's half a French loaf of bread, the half split lengthwise, then the filling laid in. The filling may be proscuitto ham or mozzarele cheese or the two in combination. You can have tuna fish or sardines or salami. Some want a double hero, that's a whole loaf of the long French bread split lengthwise, then sandwiched, the price 70 cents. No mayonnaise, no butter, just bread and plenty of ham, cheese or whatever. The filling in, the top half of the loaf is clamped on and the whole bundled into a waiting hand. Maybe you can find a place to sit at one of the tables--likely not. Rest your beer on a packing case or over there on the bean bags and gnaw into the tidbit. First crush the sandwich between the fingers to flatten it out to squeeze between the jaws. Crumbs from the crisp crust fall to litter the place like brown leaves on the forest floor in late October. (...) From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 05:33:23 2001 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:33:23 EDT Subject: More 9.11-Related Words Message-ID: Here's another one I've heard a couple of times (albeit by the same general crowd of people): "plane" as verb. As in: "I still can't believe that the WTC got planed" OR "We've become the victim of a planeing" It's from a crowd at a radio station (my silly coworkers!) so it might get some local spread, but who knows... -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Southern Illinois University - Carbondale From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 05:36:49 2001 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:36:49 EDT Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) Message-ID: How about: Let's get a taco yo. The yard needs mowed yo. I'm gonna be late for class yo. I've heard them all in the last week. Neither the "y'know" or "hey" definition seem to fit very well (IMHO), but I can't come up with anything else. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Southern Illinois University - Carbondale From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 08:05:14 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 04:05:14 EDT Subject: Manicotti (1947); Butterfly Eyebrows; Smoothie Message-ID: MANICOTTI (continued) OED and M-W have 1948. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 2 August 1947, pg. 9, col. 6: She does the specialties, the revioli, the gnocchi. the lasagna, the manicotti. (...) Manicotti a la Neopolitana is the Saturday feature. Squares of dough are rolled with a filling made with proscuitti ham and the ricotta cheese, egg yolk, and finely cut parsley. The stuffed rolls are covered with a tomato sauce, then under the broiler to bubble and brown. -------------------------------------------------------- BUTERFLY EYEBROWS From the NYHT, 2 July 1947, pg. 20, col. 6: Al Telburn's, the bright little shop that specializes, so the labels tell, in "bees' knees" and "butterflies' eyebrows," meaning about everything fancy... -------------------------------------------------------- SMOOTHIE (continued) From the NYHT, 28 June 1947, pg. (?), col. 2: Suggest an orange smoothie. Stir together two tablespoons orange marmalade to one glass of milk. From tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU Fri Sep 28 12:43:49 2001 From: tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:43:49 -0400 Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" Message-ID: The possible conflict in meanings of "pre-owned"--that is, "someone did something before s/he owned it" vs. "used"--is that analogous to the formerly common "near miss"? "Near miss" looks like it ought to mean that someone almost missed something but hit it after all, while it was used to mean that someone almost hit something but missed it after all. By the way, is there any consensus these days on the non-gender-specific pronoun to agree with "someone"? I see "s/he" in emails, but outside academics "they" seems to be the choice by default. Thom Thom Harrison Macon State College From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 28 13:05:52 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:05:52 -0400 Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20010928084349.006d7774@mail.maconstate.edu> Message-ID: 'They' has been said they whole dang lives by some us academics. We was beat up purty bad for doin' it while we was in school, but after we got out (and got tenured), hit was OK. dInIs >The possible conflict in meanings of "pre-owned"--that is, "someone did >something before s/he owned it" vs. "used"--is that analogous to the >formerly common "near miss"? > >"Near miss" looks like it ought to mean that someone almost missed >something but hit it after all, while it was used to mean that someone >almost hit something but missed it after all. > >By the way, is there any consensus these days on the non-gender-specific >pronoun to agree with "someone"? I see "s/he" in emails, but outside >academics "they" seems to be the choice by default. > >Thom > >Thom Harrison >Macon State College -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 13:25:35 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:25:35 EDT Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" Message-ID: In a message dated 9/28/01 8:44:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU writes: > "Near miss" looks like it ought to mean that someone almost missed > something but hit it after all, while it was used to mean that someone > almost hit something but missed it after all. No, "near-miss" has a more precise meaning than you think. "Near-miss" is used to refer to explosive devices (bombs, artillery shells) which do not hit the target but which explode nearby, so "near" that the target is damaged, perhaps seriously. That is, a "miss" but "near" enough to be damaging. The usage dates to at least the early days of World War II and I think was originally naval---from the beginning of World War II ships were damaged and occasionally sunk by aircraft bombs that missed the ship but exploded at a near enough range to be deadly. -- Jim Landau From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Sep 28 13:19:34 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:19:34 -0400 Subject: VISIBILITY Message-ID: The point I was bringing up has been shunted aside. HOW DO WE INCREASE THE ADS VISIBILITY AMONG TEACHERS WHO SHOULD KNOW ABOUT US? Surely, it is far more than just teaching dictionaries. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From douglas at NB.NET Fri Sep 28 13:35:00 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:35:00 -0400 Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >How about: > >Let's get a taco yo. >The yard needs mowed yo. >I'm gonna be late for class yo. > >I've heard them all in the last week. Neither the "y'know" or "hey" >definition seem to fit very well (IMHO), but I can't come up with anything >else. It is my speculation that in at least some cases -- perhaps in these ones -- this "yo" is probably a vocative "y'all". In some cases it may be a 'meaningless' noise uttered in imitation of somebody else ... but still ultimately a copy of "y'all" ... I suspect originally from popular media of some sort. A young person of my acquaintance expresses the opinion that sentence-terminal "yo" as used at the local school seems to be some version of "you". [This person has little acquaintance with "y'all", and the local speech typically does not include any pronoun which sounds like "yo".] Another young person of similar background who attended the same public school a few years earlier does not recognize the "yo" ... maybe it's a new arrival here ... or maybe it's just a matter of a different circle of friends. -- Doug Wilson From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Sep 28 13:27:02 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:27:02 -0400 Subject: Minor's nationality Message-ID: Unless I utterly misunderstand the following quotation, MINOR WAS AN AMERICAN. Among others forced to abandon the Dictionary by death or illness were two whose daily contribution from the start had been indispensable, Dr. Fitzedward Hall and Dr. W. C. Minor. Bother were Americans and both were sufferers from persecution mania. (K.M. Elisabeth Murray, Caught In the Web of Words. Oxford: OUP, 1977, p 303) Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 28 13:45:51 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:45:51 -0400 Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" In-Reply-To: <10.1324cdd0.28e5d44f@aol.com> Message-ID: Hmmm. "Near miss" also has very precise meaning in the way I use it (having no artillery experience); two airplanes (usually, although I admit other vehicles to the construction) come dangerously close but do not hit, and there is no damage. I think that's pretty precise, as ordinary language goes. dInIs >In a message dated 9/28/01 8:44:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU writes: > >> "Near miss" looks like it ought to mean that someone almost missed >> something but hit it after all, while it was used to mean that someone >> almost hit something but missed it after all. > >No, "near-miss" has a more precise meaning than you think. "Near-miss" is >used to refer to explosive devices (bombs, artillery shells) which do not hit >the target but which explode nearby, so "near" that the target is damaged, >perhaps seriously. > >That is, a "miss" but "near" enough to be damaging. > >The usage dates to at least the early days of World War II and I think was >originally naval---from the beginning of World War II ships were damaged and >occasionally sunk by aircraft bombs that missed the ship but exploded at a >near enough range to be deadly. > > -- Jim Landau -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 28 13:48:47 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:48:47 -0400 Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928090427.024cb260@nb.net> Message-ID: "The yard needs mowed yo" is my favorite example sentence of the year. Could we add such a category to the "Word of the Year" contest? Or would it cheapen that august process. dInIs >>How about: >> >>Let's get a taco yo. >>The yard needs mowed yo. >>I'm gonna be late for class yo. >> >>I've heard them all in the last week. Neither the "y'know" or "hey" >>definition seem to fit very well (IMHO), but I can't come up with anything >>else. > >It is my speculation that in at least some cases -- perhaps in these ones >-- this "yo" is probably a vocative "y'all". In some cases it may be a >'meaningless' noise uttered in imitation of somebody else ... but still >ultimately a copy of "y'all" ... I suspect originally from popular media of >some sort. > >A young person of my acquaintance expresses the opinion that >sentence-terminal "yo" as used at the local school seems to be some version >of "you". [This person has little acquaintance with "y'all", and the local >speech typically does not include any pronoun which sounds like "yo".] >Another young person of similar background who attended the same public >school a few years earlier does not recognize the "yo" ... maybe it's a new >arrival here ... or maybe it's just a matter of a different circle of friends. > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Sep 28 13:29:40 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:29:40 -0400 Subject: more on dictionaries Message-ID: I suspect there are even some librarians who don't know about the differences (either subtle or major) in modern dictionaries. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From Vocabula at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 13:41:56 2001 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:41:56 EDT Subject: VISIBILITY Message-ID: >Dear Allan and the rest of the list, >My wife, Hollis, was wearing her spectacular ADS shirt at a Celtic Day >festival last weekend when a phonology teacher at SUNY New Paltz >engaged her in a conversation about the ADS. She had NEVER heard of >it. How could this be? Don't instructors tell their students about >professional societies? >Regards, >David >barnhart at highlands.com The other day, I wrote the following letter to Allan Metcalf: Dear Professor Metcalf Perhaps The Vocabula Review can help increase ADS visibility. Between 40,000 and 70,000 people visit the TVR site each month. An ad in TVR is not costly: http://www.vocabula.com/VRadrates.htm. Regards Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review http://www.vocabula.com ___________________________________________________ To subscribe to The Vocabula Review: http://www.vocabula.com/VRsubscribe.htm Do you enjoy reading The Vocabula Review each month? If so, please help ensure that you can by contributing now: http://www.vocabula.com/VRgenerosity.htm ___________________________________________________ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 United States Tel: (781) 861-1515 From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Sep 28 13:42:41 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:42:41 -0400 Subject: Minor's nationality In-Reply-To: ; from ADS-L@HIGHLANDS.COM on Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 09:27:02AM -0400 Message-ID: > Unless I utterly misunderstand the following quotation, MINOR WAS AN > AMERICAN. He was a Connecticut-born, Yale-educated, Union Army officer. I'm not sure how much more American you can get. Jesse Sheidlower From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Fri Sep 28 13:43:35 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:43:35 +0100 Subject: VISIBILITY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Friday, September 28, 2001 9:19 am -0400 Barnhart wrote: > The point I was bringing up has been shunted aside. > > HOW DO WE INCREASE THE ADS VISIBILITY AMONG TEACHERS WHO SHOULD KNOW > ABOUT US? Surely, it is far more than just teaching dictionaries. I'm not sure who the teachers are that you think should know about us. I think the original problem was that someone's phonology instructor at New Paltz didn't know. If you want greater visibility among non-dialectologist linguists, then I'd suggest more announcements of ADS activities and resources to the Linguist List, since almost everyone reads that. If the question is about school teachers knowing about us, I'd first ask, why should they? But if we wanted better school visibility, I'd say we need more interaction with the National Council of Teachers of English. My guess, though is that the New Paltz instructor was either a TA who's not yet on top of things, a theoretician who has no time for 'applied' matters such as dialectology, or someone without an active research life. There are always going to be such people who don't know about the professional societies related to one's field, and so I don't see that the failure of one instructor to know about ADS is cause for any panic. Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 13:46:48 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:46:48 EDT Subject: double possessives Message-ID: 1. In a message dated 9/27/2001 2:11:23 PM, tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU writes: << At least the way I speak, "Sue's Tom's recommendation" might come up in a conversation like this: "Did you get Tom's recommendation?" "Tom who?" "Ohh, I can't remember his last name. You remember Sue, used to be Wilkinson? She married him. Sue's Tom's recommendation." But that would have yet another, and more normal, structure. Thom >> Yes, here (if I understand you correctly) "Sue's" modifies "Tom's". I'm interested in the case where both of the possessives modify the noun. --On Thursday, September 27, 2001 1:48 pm +0000 RonButters at aol.com wrote: 2. > In a message dated 9/27/01 1:32:39 PM, lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK writes: Possessives _are_ determiners--in all of the cases you cited. And that's why you can't have them together. I don't know why you (apparently) can have 'my your' (that's the personal 'you', not the generic 'you'. I still can't have it at all.) If possessives are determiners, then Thom's example gives us a determiner modifying another determiner. I guess that is OK, but the "syntactic" rules here keep getting more and more complex. Perhaps what we have here are not syntactic rules at all, but just pragmatic constraints? Consider the following utterances, which seem OK to me: Is this your Handel's "Messiah" CD or mine? Which is a better print, my Renoir's "Lunch of the Boating Party" or Tom's? The pragmatic rule would be that it is OK to use two possessives before a noun iff (1). it is clear from context that they modify different nouns (as in Thom's example) or (2). it is clear from context that they are different kinds of possessives (i.e., possessives of ownership vs. possessives of creation. Double pronouns are so lacking in specificity (being essentially deictic) that they are really impossible to process and hence seem to violate a syntactic rule. 3. Can anyone think of an example that contrast alienable and inalienable possession (e.g., "This is Tom's your eye" versus "This is Jack's your eye")? The only ones that work for me at all seem quite obscene, but that may just be the way my mind works. From douglas at NB.NET Fri Sep 28 13:49:18 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:49:18 -0400 Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >"The yard needs mowed yo" is my favorite example sentence of the >year. My yard needs big mojo indeed. -- Doug Wilson From paul at IMPLICATURE.COM Fri Sep 28 13:41:50 2001 From: paul at IMPLICATURE.COM (Paul Ivsin) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:41:50 -0500 Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" Message-ID: Seems to me that the possible conflict is nothing more than a multiplicity of accepted uses of "pre" and "near." "Pre" can be used as "prior to" (prehistory), but is quite commonly used to mean "in advance" (preheated, prepayment, prefabricated). "Near" has, similarly, uses as "almost" (near death, near beer) and "close" (nearby, near side, near point, near miss). Someone could, I suppose, reanalyze "pro" in the same way (pronoun, pro tempore, pro-choice), if ya really wanted to. Paul ... Paul Ivsin paul at ivsin.com ... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thom Harrison" To: Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 7:43 AM Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" The possible conflict in meanings of "pre-owned"--that is, "someone did something before s/he owned it" vs. "used"--is that analogous to the formerly common "near miss"? "Near miss" looks like it ought to mean that someone almost missed something but hit it after all, while it was used to mean that someone almost hit something but missed it after all. By the way, is there any consensus these days on the non-gender-specific pronoun to agree with "someone"? I see "s/he" in emails, but outside academics "they" seems to be the choice by default. Thom Thom Harrison Macon State College From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 28 14:17:16 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:17:16 -0400 Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928094734.02500880@nb.net> Message-ID: Aha! Finally a fellow palatalizer! dInIs >>"The yard needs mowed yo" is my favorite example sentence of the >>year. > >My yard needs big mojo indeed. > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 28 14:31:41 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:31:41 -0400 Subject: VISIBILITY In-Reply-To: <4280761.3210677015@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: Let me second much of what Lynne has outlined below. First, our visibility among linguists of every stripe has increased dramatically since we began meeting with LSA. As those who attend the annual meeting will note, the rooms are crowded for nearly every presentation (not just Word of the Year), and the crowd comes from many who attend the LSA for purposes other than dialectology and language variation, I assure you. Furthermore, our cooperation with NWAV over the last few years and our long-standing cooperation with the International Methods in Dialectology Conference has brought us to the attention of mainstream variationists or sociolinguists, many of whom had odd ideas about dialectology and dialectologists. They have also been educated. I do not want to cast aspersions on New Paltz's phonologist, but I suspect Lynne's characterization might be correct. It would be hard to attend any recent LSA meeting and, if nothing else, ignore the screaming in the hallways as the Word of the Year makes itself known. Second, we should make a bigger splash at NCTE and perhaps other venues which attract teachers of language and languages. I hasten to point out, however, that many members are involved in not just time-to-time consulting with schools and appearances in schools. Walt Wolfram, one of our Past-Presidents, for example, has developed curricula in Washington, D.C. Baltimore, and North Carolina specifically devised around language and variety and prepared for schools and teachers. Many others in our Society have carried out perhaps less elaborate but similar research and curriculum programs, including many of us who are even more frequently consulted for and are cooperating in creating TV, Public Radio, and other information dissemination programs. All in all, I'd say the ADS was making itself better and better known, both among professionals and the general public. Let's keep it up, and let's not berate ourselves too harshly when we find out next week that there's a semanticist on the West Coast who also hasn't heard of us. I'd rather conclude it wasn't a very good semanticist. diNis >--On Friday, September 28, 2001 9:19 am -0400 Barnhart > wrote: > >>The point I was bringing up has been shunted aside. >> >>HOW DO WE INCREASE THE ADS VISIBILITY AMONG TEACHERS WHO SHOULD KNOW >>ABOUT US? > >I'm not sure who the teachers are that you think should know about us. I >think the original problem was that someone's phonology instructor at New >Paltz didn't know. If you want greater visibility among non-dialectologist >linguists, then I'd suggest more announcements of ADS activities and >resources to the Linguist List, since almost everyone reads that. > >If the question is about school teachers knowing about us, I'd first ask, >why should they? But if we wanted better school visibility, I'd say we >need more interaction with the National Council of Teachers of English. > >My guess, though is that the New Paltz instructor was either a TA who's not >yet on top of things, a theoretician who has no time for 'applied' matters >such as dialectology, or someone without an active research life. There >are always going to be such people who don't know about the professional >societies related to one's field, and so I don't see that the failure of >one instructor to know about ADS is cause for any panic. > >Lynne > > >M Lynne Murphy >Lecturer in Linguistics >School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences >University of Sussex >Brighton BN1 9QH >UK > >phone +44-(0)1273-678844 >fax +44-(0)1273-671320 -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 15:08:48 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:08:48 EDT Subject: Escalator; NYC Street Games Message-ID: ESCALATOR OED has 1900 and Otis. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 3 June 1947, pg. 22, col. 5: _Jesse W. Reno_ _Dead; Inventor_ _Of Escalator, 85_ ------------------ _Sold Company to Otis in_ _1910; Was President of_ _Marine Salavage Concern_ (...) He escalator, an inclined endless belt with cleats, was first installed at the Third Evenue Elevated Railway station at Fifty-ninth Street in New York. The second was in the Bloomingdale store at the same location. At the advent of the escalator more than fifty years ago, Mr. Reno formed the Reno Inclined Elevator Company to exploit his invention and was president of the concern fof fifteen years. In 1910 he sold the organization to the Otis Elevator Company. -------------------------------------------------------- GOING-OUT-OF-BUSINESS SALE Not in OED. From THIS WEEK, NYHT, 22 June 1947, pg. 8, col. 2: _How to Go Out of Business_ IF YOU announce a "going-out-of-business" sale, you had better live up to the promise or have a pretty good reason for a change of plans. Violators may find that the License Commissioner has turned a cheap promotion stunt into a boomerang. -------------------------------------------------------- DON'T JUST SIT THERE--DO SOMETHING!--cartoon caption in the NYHT, 6 July 1947, section 2, pg. 7, cols. 4-5. WELL, LOOK WHO'S TALKING!--cartoon caption in NYHT, 13 July 1947, section 2, pg. 7, cols. 3-4. FIGHTERS ARE PEOPLE, TOO--Usually "Kids are people, too." From a breaker in the Red Smith column, NYHT, 18 July 1947, pg. 21, col. 4. YOU CAN'T LAND THEM ALL--Usually "You can't win them all." From a Red Smith fishing column, NYHT, 17 June 1947, pg. 21, col. 5. THE HEAT IS ON--column title in the NYHT, 22 August 1947, pg. 17, cols. 7-8. MAMMY SINGER--Not in OED. This is a person in blackface who sings "Mammy" or other songs. From the obituary of Walter Donaldson (who wrote "Mammy"), NYHT, 16 July 1947, pg. 20, col. 3: "In 1920 he wrote 'My Mammy,' first introduced by Bill Frawley in vaudeville. The next year Al Jolson sang it in 'Sinbad' and became known as 'The Mammy Singer.'" -------------------------------------------------------- STREET GAMES From "On the SIDEWALKS OF NEW YORK," THIS WEEK, NYHT, 1 June 1947. Pg. 6 Captions: SUBWAY STRAPS make wonderful trapeze rings. ROLLER SKATE HOCKEY is safe--at a distance. Pg. 7 Captions: STOOP BALL: An invention born from necessity. BUCK, BUCK is a carry-over from the athletes of Sparta. POTSY, alias "Hopscotch," is strictly for the ladies. Pg. 36, col. 2: _Perfect for Potsy_ ANY small firl will tell you that about the most useful things around are the sidewalk "boxes" made by the lines in the cement. They help in chalking out games of Potsy. Balanced on one long, skinny, scarred leg, Penny demonstrates. "You throw a bottle top, or an old rubber heel, and then you hop, first here, then here..." Anywhere else in the United States this would be hopscotch, but New Yorker Penny insists it's Potsy. If you listen to lamppost talk around your neighborhood you know about Ringalieveo (DARE? Not in OED--ed.), or Relieveo, as some call it. West of the Hudson this is Prisoner's Base, but native New Yorkers still use their own quaint term. Then there's Buck-Buck, or Johnny on a Pony. Here's the way Brooklyn Bill Maguire explains it: "Well, the kids in one team line up and bend over. Each puts his hands on the back of the boy ahead. The other guys come along one at a time and take a good run and jump on their backs as hard as they can--try to break 'em down, so they'll all fall down onto the sidewalk. _"How Many Horns?"_ "IF THEY can't do it, the leader on top holds up two or three fingers and says, 'Buck-buck, how many horns are up?' The boy below can't see, so he guesses. If he's right, the teams change 'round. If he's wrong, they get jumped on again." (...) Always, of course, there are little girls jumping ropes and bouncing (Col. 3--ed.) balls and chanting jingles. Come closer to them and you'll hear-- _My mother, your mother,_ _Live across the way_ _415 West Broadway_ _This is what they say:_ _Your old man_ _Is a dirty old man_ _Washes his feet_ _In the drying pan,_ _Combs his hair_ _With the leg of a chair,_ _Your old man_ _Is a dirty old man._ (...) A curious postscript to all these local games is something unheard-of here, but known throughout the West as the New York Game. It starts with this dialogue: "Here we come!" "Where from?" "New York." "What's your trade?" "Lemonade." After this, one team acts out a charade which has nothing to do with either New York or lemonade. _The End_ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 15:19:44 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:19:44 EDT Subject: Escalator; NYC Street Games Message-ID: "Frying" pan, not "drying." DARE has "Johnny-on-the-pony" from 1953. ("chiefly NYC. Cf bumbay. =buck buck 2") In "buck buck," this 1947 citation beats all but one DARE cite. From Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM Fri Sep 28 15:19:23 2001 From: Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM (Jewls2u) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:19:23 -0700 Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Would "the yard needs mowed yo, G" be considered improper? Julienne -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Dennis R. Preston Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 5:49 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "yo" (a slightly different example) "The yard needs mowed yo" is my favorite example sentence of the year. Could we add such a category to the "Word of the Year" contest? Or would it cheapen that august process. dInIs >>How about: >> >>Let's get a taco yo. >>The yard needs mowed yo. >>I'm gonna be late for class yo. >> >>I've heard them all in the last week. Neither the "y'know" or "hey" >>definition seem to fit very well (IMHO), but I can't come up with anything >>else. > >It is my speculation that in at least some cases -- perhaps in these ones >-- this "yo" is probably a vocative "y'all". In some cases it may be a >'meaningless' noise uttered in imitation of somebody else ... but still >ultimately a copy of "y'all" ... I suspect originally from popular media of >some sort. > >A young person of my acquaintance expresses the opinion that >sentence-terminal "yo" as used at the local school seems to be some version >of "you". [This person has little acquaintance with "y'all", and the local >speech typically does not include any pronoun which sounds like "yo".] >Another young person of similar background who attended the same public >school a few years earlier does not recognize the "yo" ... maybe it's a new >arrival here ... or maybe it's just a matter of a different circle of friends. > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 15:42:41 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:42:41 EDT Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" Message-ID: In a message dated 9/28/01 9:39:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > Hmmm. "Near miss" also has very precise meaning in the way I use it > (having no artillery experience); two airplanes (usually, although I > admit other vehicles to the construction) come dangerously close but > do not hit, and there is no damage. I think that's pretty precise, as > ordinary language goes. >From the 1993 edition (only one I have) of the AIrman's Information Manual, page 276, section 7-83 "NEAR MIDAIR COLLISION REPORTING" "b. Definition---A near midair collision is defined as an incident associated with the operation of an aircraft in which a possibility of collision occurs as a result of proximity of less than 500 feet to another aircraft, or a report is received from a pilot or a flight crew member stating that a collision hazard existed between two or more aircraft." Undoubtedly "near miss" is frequently used as a short-hand term for "Near Mid-Air Collision." Instead of your phrase "dangerously close", AIM 7-83b above is more specific: "possibility of collision" or (referring to a flight crew member's opinion) a "collision hazard". Your phrase "there is no damage" is overly optimistic. Among the "Items To Be Reported" in section 7-83e is "10. Injuries, if any." There is no requirement to report damage, if any, to either aircraft, but I imagine that if any damage occurs, it will get reported. (Yes, it is possible for an airplane to sustain damage as the result of an evasive maneuver.) Also, 7-83 ends with the ominous words "When the investigation reveals a violation of an FAA regulation, enforcement action will be pursued." I once saw the transcript of the radio communications during such an incident. Both pilots requested the tower to provide them with the phone number for reporting the incident. - Jim Landau Systems Enginner Federal Aviation Administration Technical Center (ACT-350/BCI) Atlantic City Airport NJ 08405 USA From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Sep 28 16:22:49 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:22:49 -0700 Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" Message-ID: dInIs sez: >'They' has been said they whole dang lives by some us academics. We >was beat up purty bad for doin' it while we was in school, but after >we got out (and got tenured), hit was OK. i don't talk funny like dInIs, but "they" does just fine for me. arnold From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Fri Sep 28 16:05:16 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:05:16 -0400 Subject: "my your recommendation": my opinion Message-ID: Ron asked: >>>>> 1. Can one convey the notion 'the recommendation that I wrote on your behalf' by saying "my your recommendation'? <<<<< No. >>>>> 2. If not, why not? <<<<< It feels dead wrong. If I heard it, I would take it as a correction: "my[, I mean] your recommendation" and suppose that the speaker meant my [that I wrote] I mean your [written in your behalf]* As to why, my off-the-cuff answer is, Two possessive pronouns in a row. Does such a construction occur anywhere? I would say, for short, "my recommendation of you" or possibly "... for you". *Blast and damn, I've forgotten the (largely theoretical) difference between "in" and "on" here. Which one is which? -- Mark A. Mandel From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 16:33:06 2001 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:33:06 EDT Subject: double possessives Message-ID: How's this for a true double possesive: "Is that your my hoodie or my your hoodie?" meaning... Is that my hoodie that you have stolen from me or your hoodie that I had stolen from you [that you are wearing]? My roommate said this this morning and it is a common construction for objects 'borrowed'. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Southern Illinois University - Carbondale From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Sep 28 16:39:37 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:39:37 -0700 Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) Message-ID: dInIs, to/about doug wilson and his mojo "mowed yo": >Aha! Finally a fellow palatalizer! doncha know it! i suspect that we are all, sometimes, palatalizers, but that not all of us are aware of it. arnold From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 16:40:27 2001 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:40:27 EDT Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) Message-ID: "The yard needs mowed yo, G" I could Never say that nor have I ever heard it. I'm not even sure "G" would work without the "yo". If I wanted to say "G" it would have to go something like: "Mow the yard, G." I think perhaps (bear with me...) "G" is the specific and "yo" is the general. That might be why it sounds so odd to make a general statement with the specific pronoun (??). As always, nothing but IMHO. (but beaming Sally Field style because you really liked my example) -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Southern Illinois University - Carbondale From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Sep 28 16:41:25 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:41:25 -0700 Subject: VISIBILITY Message-ID: dInIs: >and let's not berate ourselves too harshly when we find out next >week that there's a semanticist on the West Coast who also hasn't >heard of us. I'd rather conclude it wasn't a very good semanticist. you only do this to annoy. arnold From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 16:51:54 2001 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:51:54 EDT Subject: pin/pen merger, a question... Message-ID: Here's a question I've recently ran into and I can't either find or invent an answer for it. What are the rules for the pin/pen vowel merger? I've got the merger (and when I try not to it comes out pin/pan) but I still have the low-mid "E" as contrasting with "I". ex. with the merger: ink pin vs stick pin alphabit (alphabet) nixt (next) However, I can place a bEt on the horse with the prettiest bIt. And, I can nick (I) my neck (E) while shaveing. Furthermore, If I attempt to say alphabet (E) it doesn't make any sense (like there should be a beta bet, gamma bet, etc). Just wondering what the rules (if any) there are for merging. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Southern Illinois University - Carbondale From tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU Fri Sep 28 17:04:59 2001 From: tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:04:59 -0400 Subject: "my your recommendation": my opinion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Coul I add my bit here? "My your recommendation" sounds as wrong to me as it seems to to everyone else. But how come that seems wrong to everyone, but "I might could make it to the party"--the double modal--only sounds wrong to most people? Could a determined group, by sheer abundant use, force "my your recommendation" into recognition as part of at least some dialects? Thom At 12:05 PM 9/28/01 -0400, you wrote: >Ron asked: > >>>>>> >1. Can one convey the notion 'the recommendation that I wrote on your >behalf' >by saying "my your recommendation'? ><<<<< > >No. > >>>>>> >2. If not, why not? ><<<<< > >It feels dead wrong. If I heard it, I would take it as a correction: "my[, >I mean] your recommendation" and suppose that the speaker meant > > my [that I wrote] >I mean > your [written in your behalf]* > >As to why, my off-the-cuff answer is, Two possessive pronouns in a row. >Does such a construction occur anywhere? > >I would say, for short, "my recommendation of you" or possibly "... for >you". > >*Blast and damn, I've forgotten the (largely theoretical) difference >between "in" and "on" here. Which one is which? > >-- Mark A. Mandel > Thom Harrison Macon State College From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 28 05:52:59 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:52:59 +0800 Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:48 AM -0400 9/28/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >"The yard needs mowed yo" is my favorite example sentence of the >year. Could we add such a category to the "Word of the Year" contest? >Or would it cheapen that august process. > >dInIs > Or, in fast speech, "This yard needs mojo". Mine does, after all this dry weather. L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 28 05:56:16 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:56:16 +0800 Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928094734.02500880@nb.net> Message-ID: At 9:49 AM -0400 9/28/01, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>"The yard needs mowed yo" is my favorite example sentence of the >>year. > >My yard needs big mojo indeed. > >-- Doug Wilson Oops, never mind that last posting of mine. I should have checked all my messages before responding, especially those from Doug W. or Mark M., at least one of whom I should have counted on to have pre-empted me. L From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Sep 28 18:07:35 2001 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:07:35 -0400 Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" In-Reply-To: <129.53da7ed.28e5f471@aol.com> Message-ID: I guess nobody missed my "ordinary language" proviso. (I don't read the Airman's Information manual). dInIs >In a message dated 9/28/01 9:39:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > >> Hmmm. "Near miss" also has very precise meaning in the way I use it >> (having no artillery experience); two airplanes (usually, although I >> admit other vehicles to the construction) come dangerously close but >> do not hit, and there is no damage. I think that's pretty precise, as >> ordinary language goes. > >>>From the 1993 edition (only one I have) of the AIrman's Information Manual, >page 276, section 7-83 "NEAR MIDAIR COLLISION REPORTING" > >"b. Definition---A near midair collision is defined as an incident >associated with the operation of an aircraft in which a possibility of >collision occurs as a result of proximity of less than 500 feet to another >aircraft, or a report is received from a pilot or a flight crew member >stating that a collision hazard existed between two or more aircraft." > >Undoubtedly "near miss" is frequently used as a short-hand term for "Near >Mid-Air Collision." > >Instead of your phrase "dangerously close", AIM 7-83b above is more >specific: "possibility of collision" or (referring to a flight crew member's >opinion) a "collision hazard". > >Your phrase "there is no damage" is overly optimistic. Among the "Items To >Be Reported" in section 7-83e is "10. Injuries, if any." There is no >requirement to report damage, if any, to either aircraft, but I imagine that >if any damage occurs, it will get reported. (Yes, it is possible for an >airplane to sustain damage as the result of an evasive maneuver.) > >Also, 7-83 ends with the ominous words "When the investigation reveals a >violation of an FAA regulation, enforcement action will be pursued." > >I once saw the transcript of the radio communications during such an >incident. Both pilots requested the tower to provide them with the phone >number for reporting the incident. > > - Jim Landau > Systems Enginner > Federal Aviation Administration Technical Center (ACT-350/BCI) > Atlantic City Airport NJ 08405 USA -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Sep 28 18:13:19 2001 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:13:19 -0400 Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) In-Reply-To: <200109281639.f8SGdb423921@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: arnold, I did a palatalization study not long ago (alas hanging around unpublished) which showed no stylistic variation whatsoever; surprised me, but makes me suspect that you are right; little or no awareness of it (outside us crazy linguists). dInIs >dInIs, to/about doug wilson and his mojo "mowed yo": > >Aha! Finally a fellow palatalizer! > >doncha know it! i suspect that we are all, sometimes, palatalizers, >but that not all of us are aware of it. > >arnold -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Sep 28 18:14:33 2001 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:14:33 -0400 Subject: VISIBILITY In-Reply-To: <200109281641.f8SGfPO23966@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: arnold, But you caught me. dInIs >dInIs: > >and let's not berate ourselves too harshly when we find out next > >week that there's a semanticist on the West Coast who also hasn't > >heard of us. I'd rather conclude it wasn't a very good semanticist. > >you only do this to annoy. > >arnold -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Fri Sep 28 18:01:54 2001 From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Lynn Irons) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:01:54 -0400 Subject: List Errors Message-ID: For the past two weeks list error reports have been averaging over 500 per day. To solve this problem, I have been removing email accounts from the ads-l list (approximately 20 so far). Most of the notices of removal have likewise been bouncing back, suggesting that the email account is no longer in service. If, however, you receive such a notice, do not take offense: simply re-subscribe. In some cases there are network relay problems. That is, a local network is trying to deliver the message to some account other than the one from which a person is subscribed and the account has been is inactive or no longer available. I apologize for the inconvenience. -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 18:27:34 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:27:34 EDT Subject: CPL response on "Windy City" Message-ID: The Chicago Public Library responded on "Windy City." "Windy City" is explained in _two_ places on the CPL web site. They are correcting the place where it says that Charles A. Dana "coined" the term. However, the other explanation must also be corrected. Charles A. Dana didn't even "popularize" the term. SPORTING LIFE had "Windy City" in a list of city nicknames in 1886. It is wrong to state that "Windy City" comes from early 19th-century Chicago boosterism. No one seems to be bothered that there is not one single citation to support this. Chicago's wind was known for a long time ("windy city of Chicago" was in 1880s PUCK). However, I did extensive checking of the 1884 political conventions in Chicago, and "Windy City" was _not_ used. It was not until the Chicago Tribune's extensive pushing of Chicago's summer breeze making it an excellent summer resort (later explained by the Tribune on September 11, 1886) that the city nickname came to be applied. The Chicago Tribune still won't respond to me. Write to their Public Editor (Don Wycliff at dwycliff at tribune.com) and try for yourself. --Barry Popik Bapopik at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Subject: Response from CPL E-Mail Reference Team Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:22:03 +0100 Size: 3662 URL: From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 28 06:32:34 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:32:34 +0800 Subject: "my your recommendation": my opinion In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20010928130459.006d8d04@mail.maconstate.edu> Message-ID: At 1:04 PM -0400 9/28/01, Thom Harrison wrote: >Coul I add my bit here? > >"My your recommendation" sounds as wrong to me as it seems to to everyone >else. > >But how come that seems wrong to everyone, but "I might could make it to >the party"--the double modal--only sounds wrong to most people? > >Could a determined group, by sheer abundant use, force "my your >recommendation" into recognition as part of at least some dialects? > >Thom > In brief, yes. If a group existed for whom "my your recommendation" was a possible way of saying 'my recommendation for you', the double possessive would then be recognized as a (dialect) trait for the group in question, as the "double modal" trait is for speakers in a region including much of Arkansas, Texas, and adjacent regions. (And of course not just any sequence of modals is possible for such speakers, and variation within the class of speakers and the class of modals has been attested.) In fact, given Douglas Bigham's attestation of "Is that your my hoodie or my your hoodie?" with the intended meaning 'Is that my hoodie that you have stolen from me or your hoodie that I had stolen from you [that you are wearing]?', such a group (not necessarily a "determined" group--I'm not sure what you mean by that qualification) already exists, assuming it doesn't consist of just DSB's roommate. (I've used a double comparative on occasion--"You're more meaner than he is than he's dumber than you" or the like--but that doesn't really count.) Larry From stevekl at PANIX.COM Fri Sep 28 18:39:22 2001 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:39:22 -0400 Subject: Little Italy north/pizza pie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, Mark Mandel wrote: > Where I live in Framingham, Mass., a western suburb of Boston, there's a > shop called "Ty's Pies". To my disappointment, it is a pizzeria, not a pie > bakery. (I like pizza, but I was hoping for dessert-type pies.) In the 2400 block of Clark Street there's a pizzeria called "My Pie." In a block of high turnover, it's probably one of the few businesses that hasn't been anything else in the past 15 years. -- Steve Kl. From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Fri Sep 28 18:45:58 2001 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:45:58 -0700 Subject: Virus Activity Message-ID: Apparently someone has come up with a virus that can be spread through a listserv name. Just a caution to anyone on any listserv, including ADS-L. Rudy ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:05:08 -0700 From: Anne Vail To: COH_SUPPORT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Virus Activity from FSO There is currently an email floating around campus which came from eforms at listserv.arizona.edu which contains an executable attachment named provided.com. We've also seen it under introduce.com or introduce.exe. The file name is actually irrelevant. Don't open it. As always, be wary of unsolicited email and attachments and don't blanketly trust anyone. If you must trust, VERIFY before taking what might be a dangerous leap. Several users in our College have been affected. Since the release from the eforms listserv, FSO is taking steps to begin filtering their listserv messages to strip potential and real virus threats, as this one. >From FSO: In an effort to avoid future issues like what happened this morning in regards to virii spreading through our listservs, we have implemented two new rules on all of our listservs: - strip all attachments - strip HTML mail We are in the process of applying these new rules to all of the listservs held under FSO today. If you believe you have been affected, please shut down your computer and call us at 349-3644. Thank you, COH Support Systems From stevekl at PANIX.COM Fri Sep 28 18:46:35 2001 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:46:35 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility focus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Barnhart wrote: > This thread is very interesting. However, we seem to have drifted some > distance from the original thought. How should each of us raise the > visibility of ADS? When I was a grad student in linguistics, everyone seemed to be familiar with the LSA (especially since that's where a lot of departments held interviews). Since the ADS meets concurrently with the LSA, I think most effective and most inexpensive way of doing this would be to engineer some method of upping our name-recognition at LSA. This isn't as easy as it sounds, as people going to the LSA divide off into phonologyland or semanticsville, etc., but perhaps the idea of having a few papers that are joint LSA-ADS, if that's at all possible, would work. Or, even better, if someone from the ADS were to present a paper at the LSA about the ADS, that would be a good thing. Most importantly, I would the think the ADS needs to, in one cogent paragraph, comapre and contrast it's raisin d'etre with that of the LSA. For many people in the LSA, they may not understand why they would be welcome at the ADS as well. -- Steve Kl. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Sep 28 18:38:08 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:38:08 -0400 Subject: VISIBILITY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Sep 2001, Barnhart wrote: >The point I was bringing up has been shunted aside. > >HOW DO WE INCREASE THE ADS VISIBILITY AMONG TEACHERS WHO SHOULD KNOW >ABOUT US? Surely, it is far more than just teaching dictionaries. Okay, David, since you insist. My univ. maintains a "speaker bureau" - if you sign up, agrreeing to speak to a few groups each year, you list the topics you are willing to talk about to Rotary, women's clubs, etc. I used to do that, and some of my topics involved language variation. At one time there was also such a list for invididuals willing to go to K-12 schools. I don't know whether it continues. Another vehicle used to be state NEH grants. Bethany From stevekl at PANIX.COM Fri Sep 28 18:51:54 2001 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:51:54 -0400 Subject: school classrooms (was visibility) In-Reply-To: <3116519.3210585614@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Lynne Murphy wrote: > Erin McKean did a study on what teachers feel they do/need for dictionary > skills teaching, which is published in last year's _Dictionaries_. The > problem, of course, is that teachers are already expected to do way too > much in their limited time, so dictionary skills often fall through the > cracks. My sister and my mom both teach in public schools for middle-of-the-road students (ie, not remedial, but not advanced, either).Most of their students have enough difficult with reading comprehension that the concept of using a dictionary is sadly beyond their ken. I think this has been pointed out before, but if we're going to raise awareness with kids, we have to start them when they're young and first learning to read. Many of the younger teachers themselves were a product of school systems from a time when dictionaries were abandoned, so *they* need to be instructed in how to use a dictionary, too. On the other hand, I started using the 1966 unabridged Random House (hi, Enid!) when I was 5, and look what's happened to me... :) -- Steve From stevekl at PANIX.COM Fri Sep 28 18:57:00 2001 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:57:00 -0400 Subject: my your recommendation In-Reply-To: <4172489.3210603171@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Lynne Murphy wrote: > Because 'my' and 'your' are determiners, and there's only one determiner > slot in at the front of a noun phrase. Same reason you can't say 'the your > recommendation' or 'your that recommendation'. The maid picked up my his towel but left my wife's her towel on the floor. I agree with Lynn, but you can get very context-specific readings to work if you say them just right, or set up the context just right, the way you can make "Agnew supposes poached." to be grammatical if you set the context up right. -- Steve Kl. From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM Fri Sep 28 18:54:44 2001 From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Pearsons, Enid) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:54:44 -0400 Subject: school classrooms (was visibility) Message-ID: All good things. Lexicography and orthoepy are lucky to have you. > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Kl. [mailto:stevekl at PANIX.COM] > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 2:52 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: school classrooms (was visibility) > > On the other hand, I started using the 1966 unabridged Random > House (hi, > Enid!) when I was 5, and look what's happened to me... :) > > -- Steve > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 28 07:31:29 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 15:31:29 +0800 Subject: my your recommendation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:57 PM -0400 9/28/01, Steve Kl. wrote: >On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Lynne Murphy wrote: > >> Because 'my' and 'your' are determiners, and there's only one determiner >> slot in at the front of a noun phrase. Same reason you can't say 'the your >> recommendation' or 'your that recommendation'. > >The maid picked up my his towel but left my wife's her towel on the floor. > >I agree with Lynn, but you can get very context-specific readings to work >if you say them just right, or set up the context just right, the way you >can make "Agnew supposes poached." to be grammatical if you set the >context up right. > I'm not sure the two cases are parallel. Yours aren't really "my his towel" and "my wife's her towel" but "my 'HIS' towel and "my wife's 'HER' towel; these 'his' and 'her' aren't possessives but names of towels. "Agnew supposes poached" or, as I recall it, "Jerry thinks with a fork" as elliptical replies in exchanges like --How does Nixon eat his eggs? --(I'm not sure, but) Agnew supposes ___ poached. --How does the Pope eat his peas? --(I don't know, but) Jerry thinks ____ with a fork don't involve the same kind of quotation contexts, playing instead off what ISN'T said but can be filled in. In any case, we have it from Douglas Bigham that "my your hoodie" is perfectly well-formed and interpretable by his roommate without either quotation or ellipsis (at least without the very marked ellipsis in "supposes poached"/"thinks with a fork" above), so we evidently don't have to go to these contextual lengths. larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 19:58:29 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 15:58:29 EDT Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" Message-ID: In a message dated 9/28/01 3:25:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > I guess nobody missed my "ordinary language" proviso. (I don't read > the Airman's Information manual). First, I was pointing out that your definition became incorrect when you included the statement "and there is no damage," It is not well known to non-aviators, but injuries and damage can occur from a near miss. In fact, there is one scenario (luckily, very easily avoided) in which a near miss can cause one plane to crash. Second, any time you hear a news report about a "near miss", almost certainly the report was based at least partly on statements from - the flight crew - an airline spokesperson (or the owner of the plane, if not an airline) - an FAA spokesperson and all of the above have some familiarity with the Airman's Information Manual (by the way, the "M" in "Manual" is capitalized). Controllers have their own jargon for describing these situations. I doubt that the general public would recognize the terms "range ring", "deal", "snitch", "seven mile club", and "system fault." However, I did once hear a controller say "two airliners got a close look at each other." - Jim Landau From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Sep 28 21:18:14 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 17:18:14 -0400 Subject: VISIBILITY Message-ID: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU,Net writes: >Okay, David, since you insist. My univ. maintains a "speaker bureau" - >if >you sign up, agrreeing to speak to a few groups each year, you list the >topics you are willing to talk about to Rotary, women's clubs, etc. I >used to do that, and some of my topics involved language variation. At >one >time there was also such a list for invididuals willing to go to K-12 >schools. I don't know whether it continues. Dear Bethany, I still do it. However, if I am to come to Tennessee, I hope they'll pay my train fare. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Sep 28 22:19:17 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 18:19:17 -0400 Subject: VISIBILITY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Sep 2001, Barnhart wrote: >I still do it. However, if I am to come to Tennessee, I hope they'll >pay my train fare. I'll speak to them, David! Bethany From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 28 23:08:00 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:08:00 -0400 Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" In-Reply-To: <171.19e869b.28e63065@aol.com> Message-ID: Righto. And the general public has no business knowing this jargon; so we get to make up our own meanings. Good ones in this case, I think. I could go for "It was a near miss, but the banking away from the impending collision was so steep that lots of passengers were hurt, some badly." Still didn't hit; still no damage to the plane. Maybe I could go for, "The plane had to swerve so badly after the near miss over O'Hare that it lost it's Johnson Bar and had to be grounded." Note the "but." Implication of near miss - still no damage. Hope ya'll know what a Johnson Bar is; hate to use technical terms. dInIs >In a message dated 9/28/01 3:25:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, preston at MSU.EDU >writes: > >> I guess nobody missed my "ordinary language" proviso. (I don't read >> the Airman's Information manual). > >First, I was pointing out that your definition became incorrect when you >included the statement "and there is no damage," It is not well known to >non-aviators, but injuries and damage can occur from a near miss. In fact, >there is one scenario (luckily, very easily avoided) in which a near miss can >cause one plane to crash. > >Second, any time you hear a news report about a "near miss", almost certainly >the report was based at least partly on statements from > - the flight crew > - an airline spokesperson (or the owner of the plane, if not an airline) > - an FAA spokesperson >and all of the above have some familiarity with the Airman's Information >Manual (by the way, the "M" in "Manual" is capitalized). > >Controllers have their own jargon for describing these situations. I doubt >that the general public would recognize the terms "range ring", "deal", >"snitch", "seven mile club", and "system fault." However, I did once hear a >controller say "two airliners got a close look at each other." > > - Jim Landau -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 23:12:11 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:12:11 EDT Subject: Ezra Kendall's SPOTS OF WIT AND HUMOR (1899) Message-ID: SPOTS OF WIT AND HUMOR AS TOLD BY EZRA KENDALL Helman Taylor Co. Cleveland, Ohio 1899 A gem. This book sold over 250,000 copies. Ezra Kendall's next book, GOOD GRAVY, sold over 300,000 copies. Pg. 21: Have you ever been down to Coney Island? (...) Did you try any of th' games down there--th' one where you throw th' base balls at th' babies--and every time you hit a baby on th' head you get a good cigar? I couldn't hit one. ("Close, but no cigar"--ed.) Pg. 34: If I'd stayed there I'd been broke myself. She says, "If you want change try the baker next door, he always has th' dough." Pg. 69: I says, "Your money or your wife." "Why, go ahead and take her," he says, "and save me alimony." I says, "Hold on, I'm a little rattled. It's your money or your life." (Jack Benny is thinking about it--ed.) (The following "Fruit and Vegetable Handicap" is useful perhaps for "Big Apple" in horseracing. This routine was probably a horseracing cliche in the early 1900s--ed.) Pg. 66: The next race was a sort of (Pg. 67--ed.) Fruit and Vegetable Handicap. In th' paddock, before th' race, I heard one of th' trainers say to a jockey, "Water Melon, and warm up Potatoes." "I'd like to win a stake with Mushrooms, but," he says, "If that California pair gets ahead of Lettuce you'll see Sugar beat." "Of all th' string, Beans is th' best; Asparagrass tips are no good." When th' race was being run I was in th' pool room, listening to th' telegraph operator. He says, "They're off--Grape's in th' bunch." Th' man next to me must have had Grapes, for th' minute he heard "Grapes" he had gripes. And Grapes in th' bunch (Pg. 68--ed.) was enough to give a man gripes in th' bunch. Then th' operator went on, "Onions coming strong; Skin on th' outside; Raddish wins--pulled up." And th' judges scolded th' jockey for pulling up th' horse--Raddish. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 23:35:05 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:35:05 EDT Subject: Confessions of a Twentieth Century Hobo (1924) Message-ID: CONFESSIONS OF A TWENTIETH CENTURY HOBO by "Digit" Herbert Jenkins, Limited, London 1924 A British man tramps the U. S. Pg. 11: AUTHOR'S NOTE Some of the words, phrases, etc., used in the following narrative will probably be meaningless to the average English reader. For their benefit, I explain a few of those most frequently used. _Bud, buddy_...Friend, chum, or mate. _Bum_...Beggar, cadger. _Booked for vag._...Charged with vagabondage. _Bat out of hell_...A popular hobo expression, meaning a train moving very rapidly. _Banana Limited,_ _Extra, Manifest_...Types of freight trains. _Bull, dick_...Plain-clothes detectives. _Chain gang_...Group of convicts. _Drummer_...Travelling salesman. _Eleven, twenty-nine, twenty-three_...A favourite sentence of some judges, meaning eleven months, twenty-nine days, twenty-three hours. In some states one loses one's citizenship by a year in jail. _Flivver_...Ford automobile. _Goofie_...Silly. _Highball_...The two short, sharp whistles from the engine after the "all clear" has been given--usually a sign that the train is going to pick up speed. _Hootch, moonshine_...Home-made atrocities for whisky. _Hobo_...A tramp. (Pg. 12--ed.) _Hit the hay_...Go to bed. _Jungle up_...Bovouac in the weeds and clean up generally. _Limey_...The Southern term for a Britisher. _Lock you up and turn you loose_...It is common for hobos to go to the police or sheriff and ask to be locked up for the night. Usually the officials let them out in the morning, and sometimes give them some breakfast. _Once over_...To inspect. To look at thoroughly. _Rattler_...A freight train. _Reefer_...A refrigerator box car for perishable goods with an ice-box at each end. _Ride the cushions_...Travel by passenger train in the orthodox manner. _Rock-pile_...State highways or work. _Slim_...Tall, thin men are invariably called Slim. _Stemming_...Begging, cadging. _State License_...State number-plates on cars. Each state has its own coloured plate changed annually. _Step on her_...A common expression among motorists, meaning to press one's foot on the accelerator. _Snowbird_...(1) A drug addict. (2) In the Southern States a Northerner who migrates south to avoid the winter. _The law_...A policeman. _Truck_...Motor lorry. _Two, four, or six bits_...Twenty-five, fifty, and seventy-five cents. _The makings_...Cigarette-papers and tobacco. _Tailor-mades_...Ordinary ready-made cigarettes. Pg. 60: "In God we trust, All others--CASH." (A drawing of this sign is on page 61--ed.) Pg. 62: "Great suffering doughnuts!" Pg. 173: "Suffering doughnuts!" (Why do doughnuts suffer so?--ed.) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Sep 29 00:27:52 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 20:27:52 EDT Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" Message-ID: In a message dated 09/28/2001 6:59:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > Hope ya'll know what a Johnson Bar is; hate to use technical terms. A "Johnson bar" controls the amount and direction of the steam that enters the cylinders in a steam locomotive. (As a steam locomotive speeds up, the amount of steam per stroke has to be changed. As for direction, the Johnson bar also controls whether the locomotive moves forward or back). The Johnson bar works by rearranging the pivot points of the rods and levers that connect the cylinders with the wheels. If you can conjure up even a vague image of a steam locomotive and realize how big those rods are, you can easily understand that the Johnson bar has to be a substantical piece of ironmongery. Earnest K. Gann in one of his books mentions an airplane which had a sizable lever in the cockpit that was referred to, for reasons Mr. Gann never understood, as a Johnson bar. (As best as I can recall, it was "Band of Brothers", the Ford Tri-Motor, and the lever controlled the brakes when the plane was on the ground.) Apparently somebody who was familiar with the inside of a steam locomotive found that that lever reminded him of a Johnson bar. The OED2 has Johnson bar as "US, origin unknown" with the first cite from 1930 and an incomplete definition that describes it only as the reversing lever, not as the device that also controlled the amount of steam allowed per stroke. There is a 1971 citation as the emergency brake handle on a truck (presumably, like the Gann cite above, from the size or shape of the thing.) A magazine article I once read said, or maybe admitted to theorizing, that the original term was "jouncing bar" ("jouncin' bar") because it jounced around. - Jim Landau P.S. The OED2 has "near miss" (under near, adjective) with 2 naval citations from 1940, several citations in which the term appears to mean only "close but missed safely", one citation reading "...a lot of bomb damage to repair from a near miss..." implying that this near miss caused considerable damage, and oh yes a 1973 quote about airplanes having near misses. From prez234 at JUNO.COM Sat Sep 29 01:08:03 2001 From: prez234 at JUNO.COM (Joseph McCollum) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 09:08:03 +0800 Subject: Medjugorje? Message-ID: A Catholic friend forwarded me the message of September 25th from Medjugorje. Apparently, the name of the town means "between the hills." I had conjectured that the -jugo- part might mean "south," Jugoslavia (or Yugoslavia) is loosely "the land of the Southern Slavs," but then there isn't much left over for "between the hills." Any ideas? -- From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Sep 29 02:51:56 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:51:56 -0500 Subject: Medjugorje? Message-ID: I don't have my Serbo-Croatian dictionary at hand, but I see generally what is going on with Medjugorje: 1) Medju = between (cf. Russian mezhdu = between) 2) gorje --related to Russian gora (= mountain; appears, incidentally, in the name Pyatigorsky = pertaining to five mountains; pyat' = five). The root in gorje, gora is gor-. ---Gerald Cohen >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 >From: Joseph McCollum >Subject: Medjugorje? >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >A Catholic friend forwarded me the message of September 25th from Medjugorje. > >Apparently, the name of the town means "between the hills." > >I had conjectured that the -jugo- part might mean "south," >Jugoslavia (or Yugoslavia) is loosely "the land of the Southern >Slavs," but then there isn't much left over for "between the hills." > >Any ideas? > > > > > > >-- From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Sep 29 12:06:06 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 08:06:06 -0400 Subject: bursting out~outbursting Message-ID: In the last 12 hours I've heard outbursting as in "The contents were outbursting;" rather than bursting out uprising as in "Those discontented people are uprising;" rather than rising up. Can anyone give me a lead to further discussion of this phenomenon in the archives. I seem to recall this being discussed before. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Sat Sep 29 12:55:45 2001 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:55:45 -0500 Subject: johnson bar Message-ID: Also the name of a heavy lever used to remove railroad spikes and moving heavy equipment, from there, the concept of a heavy bar, quickly became in slang another name for a penis, as in "I showed her my really big johnson" , "James A. Landau" wrote: > > In a message dated 09/28/2001 6:59:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > > > Hope ya'll know what a Johnson Bar is; hate to use technical terms. > > From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Sep 29 14:00:58 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:00:58 -0400 Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Of course, all these apparently good definitions miss the one most commonly in use when I was young; when you wanted to tease a mechanically-ignorant neophyte (especially in auto mechanics) or if you just wanted to speculate out loud to knowing fellows when you didn't know what the hell was going on, you very frequently expressed doubt about the "Johnson bar." "Hey, sounds like the Johnson bar is loose in your old lemon, Fred." If Fred knew the game (and especially if there were neophytes around), he would 'low as how he'd have his Johnson bar looked at. If Fred was one of those being teased, he might express real concern about his Johnson bar, to the delight of all us mechnincally sophisticated (although we were rapidly becoming unsophisticated as overhead valve engines and automatic tramsissions were passing us by). dInIs dInIs >In a message dated 09/28/2001 6:59:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > >> Hope ya'll know what a Johnson Bar is; hate to use technical terms. > >A "Johnson bar" controls the amount and direction of the steam that enters >the cylinders in a steam locomotive. (As a steam locomotive speeds up, the >amount of steam per stroke has to be changed. As for direction, the Johnson >bar also controls whether the locomotive moves forward or back). > >The Johnson bar works by rearranging the pivot points of the rods and levers >that connect the cylinders with the wheels. If you can conjure up even a >vague image of a steam locomotive and realize how big those rods are, you can >easily understand that the Johnson bar has to be a substantical piece of >ironmongery. > >Earnest K. Gann in one of his books mentions an airplane which had a sizable >lever in the cockpit that was referred to, for reasons Mr. Gann never >understood, as a Johnson bar. (As best as I can recall, it was "Band of >Brothers", the Ford Tri-Motor, and the lever controlled the brakes when the >plane was on the ground.) Apparently somebody who was familiar with the >inside of a steam locomotive found that that lever reminded him of a Johnson >bar. > >The OED2 has Johnson bar as "US, origin unknown" with the first cite from >1930 and an incomplete definition that describes it only as the reversing >lever, not as the device that also controlled the amount of steam allowed per >stroke. There is a 1971 citation as the emergency brake handle on a truck >(presumably, like the Gann cite above, from the size or shape of the thing.) > >A magazine article I once read said, or maybe admitted to theorizing, that >the original term was "jouncing bar" ("jouncin' bar") because it jounced >around. > > - Jim Landau > >P.S. The OED2 has "near miss" (under near, adjective) with 2 naval citations >from 1940, several citations in which the term appears to mean only "close >but missed safely", one citation reading "...a lot of bomb damage to repair >from a near miss..." implying that this near miss caused considerable damage, >and oh yes a 1973 quote about airplanes having near misses. -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Sep 29 14:04:09 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:04:09 -0400 Subject: Medjugorje? In-Reply-To: <20010929010803.28605.qmail@juno.com> Message-ID: Reckon you're cutting your morphemes in the wrong place. You're finding a "jugo" where there ain't none. The "Medju-" part is the "between" or "middle,' and the "gorje" part is mountains or hills. dInIs >A Catholic friend forwarded me the message of September 25th from Medjugorje. > >Apparently, the name of the town means "between the hills." > >I had conjectured that the -jugo- part might mean "south," >Jugoslavia (or Yugoslavia) is loosely >"the land of the Southern Slavs," but then there isn't much left >over for "between the hills." > >Any ideas? > > > > > > >-- -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From pds at VISI.COM Sat Sep 29 15:33:08 2001 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:33:08 -0500 Subject: box cutter illustrated In-Reply-To: Message-ID: These pictures are very helpful. My idea of a utility knife is represented by item #100, although I also have a retractable version. FWIW, my local Ace Hardware has an item much like the illustrated box cutters. They are called "snap knives", presumably because portions of the blade can be easily broken off after they become dull. --Tom Kysilko At 08:24 AM 9/27/2001 -0400, Frank Abate wrote: > >The following web page, from a company that sells box cutters, has >illustrations. The first, third, and last items depicted are box cutters. >Please note that the first and third pictures show a protective sleeve >covering the cutting edge of the blade. Also, the illustrations, from the >side, do not show the thinness of the items. > >The same page has a link to "utility knives": > >http://www.themodernspecialtiescompany.com/cutters/cutters.html From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Sep 29 17:47:11 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:47:11 EDT Subject: CPL response on "Windy City" Message-ID: This is actually pretty interesting as a discussion of the total imperviousness of folk culture to linguistic reality. Dennis Preston: Is it too late to add a chapter to HANDBOOK OF PERCEPTUAL DIALECTOLOGY II? In a message dated 9/28/2001 3:28:33 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: << The Chicago Public Library responded on "Windy City." "Windy City" is explained in _two_ places on the CPL web site. They are correcting the place where it says that Charles A. Dana "coined" the term. However, the other explanation must also be corrected. Charles A. Dana didn't even "popularize" the term. SPORTING LIFE had "Windy City" in a list of city nicknames in 1886. It is wrong to state that "Windy City" comes from early 19th-century Chicago boosterism. No one seems to be bothered that there is not one single citation to support this. Chicago's wind was known for a long time ("windy city of Chicago" was in 1880s PUCK). However, I did extensive checking of the 1884 political conventions in Chicago, and "Windy City" was _not_ used. It was not until the Chicago Tribune's extensive pushing of Chicago's summer breeze making it an excellent summer resort (later explained by the Tribune on September 11, 1886) that the city nickname came to be applied. The Chicago Tribune still won't respond to me. Write to their Public Editor (Don Wycliff at dwycliff at tribune.com) and try for yourself. --Barry Popik Bapopik at aol.com >> From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Sep 29 17:51:47 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:51:47 EDT Subject: double possessives Message-ID: Beautiful--thanks so much for the example. Of course, the fact that people use the construction regularly will not convince some formalist linguists that it is "grammatical." In a message dated 9/28/2001 3:22:48 PM, TlhovwI at AOL.COM writes: << How's this for a true double possesive: "Is that your my hoodie or my your hoodie?" meaning... Is that my hoodie that you have stolen from me or your hoodie that I had stolen from you [that you are wearing]? My roommate said this this morning and it is a common construction for objects 'borrowed'. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Southern Illinois University - Carbondale >> From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Sep 29 18:10:25 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:10:25 -0400 Subject: CPL response on "Windy City" In-Reply-To: <4f.11ff437e.28e7631f@aol.com> Message-ID: Volume II is in bed; we need someone to write an article called something like "Barry's Woes: Or How the Real World Doesn't Give a Whack about Where Words, Names, Phrases, and the Like Really Came From." I promise it a home (and I would be delighted to supervise an MA thesis on just those Barry tales). dInIs >This is actually pretty interesting as a discussion of the total >imperviousness of folk culture to linguistic reality. Dennis Preston: Is it >too late to add a chapter to HANDBOOK OF PERCEPTUAL DIALECTOLOGY II? > > >In a message dated 9/28/2001 3:28:33 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > ><< The Chicago Public Library responded on "Windy City." > > "Windy City" is explained in _two_ places on the CPL web site. They are >correcting the place where it says that Charles A. Dana "coined" the term. > > However, the other explanation must also be corrected. Charles A. Dana >didn't even "popularize" the term. SPORTING LIFE had "Windy City" in a list >of city nicknames in 1886. > > It is wrong to state that "Windy City" comes from early 19th-century >Chicago boosterism. No one seems to be bothered that there is not one single >citation to support this. > > Chicago's wind was known for a long time ("windy city of Chicago" was in >1880s PUCK). However, I did extensive checking of the 1884 political >conventions in Chicago, and "Windy City" was _not_ used. It was not until >the Chicago Tribune's extensive pushing of Chicago's summer breeze making it >an excellent summer resort (later explained by the Tribune on September 11, >1886) that the city nickname came to be applied. > > The Chicago Tribune still won't respond to me. Write to their Public >Editor (Don Wycliff at dwycliff at tribune.com) and try for yourself. > > >--Barry Popik > >Bapopik at aol.com >> -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Sep 29 18:32:58 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:32:58 -0500 Subject: On Barry Popik's successes and frustrations Message-ID: Keep the hanky dry, Dennis. Barry may have encountered some frustration in having his material properly considered by the public, but he has also received some excellent media coverage--a wonderful write-up by Ed Zotti in the _Wall Street Journal_, three fine articles by Gersh Kuntzman in the _NY Post_, full acknowledgment of his work on "the Big Apple" in a letter of mine published by "Dear Abby," and favorable mention once in, yes, William Safire's "On Language" column. But if you'd like to assign one of your M.A. or Ph.D. students a sure-fire interesting thesis-topic, make it: "Barry Popik's Contributions To The Study of the English Lexicon." The source material would be the ads-l messages, Barry's published material, and interviews with various scholars, including Barry himself. In fact, if you limited the topic to, say, Barry's contributions to food terminology, your student would have enough material for a thesis right there. ---Gerald Cohen >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 >From: "Dennis R. Preston" >Subject: Re: CPL response on "Windy City" >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >Volume II is in bed; we need someone to write an article called >something like "Barry's Woes: Or How the Real World Doesn't Give a >Whack about Where Words, Names, Phrases, and the Like Really Came >From." > >I promise it a home (and I would be delighted to supervise an MA >thesis on just those Barry tales). > >dInIs From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Sep 29 18:54:41 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:54:41 -0400 Subject: On Barry Popik's successes and frustrations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, I hope lexicogrpahers will encourage students to follow up on those excellent suggestions. For a poor old dunderheaded sociolingusit like me, however, I like the grubbing around in the interface between what Barry has found out and what sort of reception it has had. (Different strokes.) dInIs > Keep the hanky dry, Dennis. Barry may have encountered some >frustration in having his material properly considered by the public, >but he has also received some excellent media coverage--a wonderful >write-up by Ed Zotti in the _Wall Street Journal_, three fine >articles by Gersh Kuntzman in the _NY Post_, full acknowledgment of >his work on "the Big Apple" in a letter of mine published by "Dear >Abby," and favorable mention once in, yes, William Safire's "On >Language" column. > > But if you'd like to assign one of your M.A. or Ph.D. students a >sure-fire interesting thesis-topic, make it: "Barry Popik's >Contributions To The Study of the English Lexicon." The source >material would be the ads-l messages, Barry's published material, and >interviews with various scholars, including Barry himself. In fact, >if you limited the topic to, say, Barry's contributions to food >terminology, your student would have enough material for a thesis >right there. > >---Gerald Cohen > > >>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 >>From: "Dennis R. Preston" >>Subject: Re: CPL response on "Windy City" >>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> >>Volume II is in bed; we need someone to write an article called >>something like "Barry's Woes: Or How the Real World Doesn't Give a >>Whack about Where Words, Names, Phrases, and the Like Really Came >>From." >> >>I promise it a home (and I would be delighted to supervise an MA >>thesis on just those Barry tales). >> >>dInIs -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Sep 29 20:54:35 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:54:35 -0700 Subject: New word resources Message-ID: Taking a hint from Barry Popik, I carried a notebook while in Hawaii this past week. I found a couple of common words that I thought might be useful to note (ogo and pupu/pupus are at the top of the list), but I would like to check and make sure they aren't already in dictionaries. Where should I check, and can the check be done on the Internet from home? I have found that I can access the OED by using my public library card, but is that the most up-to-date source? Also, are proper nouns of interest? I found a 1923 citation for Menehunes, the plural form of Menehune. According to legend, they are the people who preceded the Polynesians in settling the Hawaiian islands. Benjamin Barrett From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Sep 29 20:56:18 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:56:18 -0700 Subject: More Frenchified? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I heard that at the Kauai Sheraton this past week as well. I thought I had heard incorrectly... Benjamin Barrett > -----Original Message----- > Behalf Of Kim & Rima McKinzey > > On the phone to the reservation person for the Westin > Hotel chain, I > asked if she knew how one got from the airport to the hotel in > question. She said, several times and very clearly, that > I'd have to > talk to the "conseeAIR." > > Could this be because this sounds more French than > concierge? It's a > new one for me. > > Rima From Ittaob at AOL.COM Sat Sep 29 21:16:50 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:16:50 EDT Subject: More Frenchified? Message-ID: In a message dated 9/29/01 5:05:19 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes: << -----Original Message----- > Behalf Of Kim & Rima McKinzey > > On the phone to the reservation person for the Westin > Hotel chain, I > asked if she knew how one got from the airport to the hotel in > question. She said, several times and very clearly, that > I'd have to > talk to the "conseeAIR." > > Could this be because this sounds more French than > concierge? It's a > new one for me. > > Rima >> This is similar to the common (mis)pronunciation of "coup de grace" as "koo de GRAH". There seems to be a widespread misconception among Americans that final French consonant sounds are never pronounced. Steve Boatti From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 29 22:58:10 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:58:10 EDT Subject: Mole Poblano & Gaspacho & Empanada (1839) Message-ID: Coleccion de Recetas de Cosina y Reposteria, del Vso y propiedad del Combento(sic) de Senores Religiosas de N. Me. Pma de la Concepon Ano de 1839, 2 p.l., 150 p., 60 l. front, 4to. I went through this today in the Special Collections division of the NYPL. It's handwritten in Spanish. Mole Poblano is on Page 6, Gaspacho is on Page 25 and Page 33, Empanadas Adobados is on Page 112 and Empanaditas de (?) is on Page 114. OED has Gazpacho (1845), Mole (1890s?), and Empanada (1939). The book is in the "Whitney Cookery collection, ca. 1400-1895." (See catnyp.nypl.org) Seventeen books were donated by Helen Hay Whitney (1875-1944). I went through four others, but they were handwritten and difficult to read. One manuscript on nineteenth century American cookery is a handwritten mess, of very uncertain dating. Most all of the other books are English cookery, from the 17th or 18th century. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 29 23:42:18 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 19:42:18 EDT Subject: Ooley Cow, Keep Your Shirt On (1918); Author! Author! (1916) Message-ID: FORE! by Charles E. Van Loan George H. Doran Company, NY 1918 Charles Van Loan was an excellent writer of sports stories (usually baseball). David Shulman went through most of his novels, but maybe not this one. Shulman said that he found a golf "mulligan" in 1940 and I was looking for that word, but "mulligan" is not here. Pg. 29: Holy jumping Jemima! Pg. 34: So all the eggs are in one basket. Pg. 42: Have a little sense. Keep your shirt on. Pg. 59: Who's the boss here? Who's the Big Finger? Pg. 113: Talk, talk, talk... Pg. 124: "The Major began the gab-fest," said Waddles. Pg. 137: Attaboy! Pg. 179: Shoo! Scat! Mush on! Vamose! Beat it! Hurry up! _Wiki-wiki_! Chop-chop! _Schnell_! Pg. 227: Professional, your grandmother! Pg. 285: Why, say, I bet I can take one hand and outdrive you! _One hand_! (RHHDAS has "Holy cow!" from 1934. This chapter maybe is helpful, maybe not. Is "Holy cow!" in Van Loan's baseball novels?--ed.) Pg. 262: THE OOLEY-COW Pg. 263: The Ooley-cow was the easiest, softest picking that ever strayed from the home pasture. With care and decent treatment he would have lasted a long time and yielded an enormous quantity if nourishment, but Uncle Billy and Old Man Sprott were too greedy. -------------------------------------------------------- GOLF: THE BOOK OF A THOUSAND CHUCKLES by Clare Briggs P. F. Volland & Co., Chicago 1916 "Mulligan" is not here, either, and it's not in THE DUFFER'S HANDBOOK OF GOLF (1926) by Grantland Rice and Clare Briggs. (Clare Briggs was a longtime cartoonist on the New York Herald Tribune.) "Mulligan" probably dates from the 1930s. This book is not paginated: To the Scoffers, the Duffers, and the Golfers, this book is dedicated. "Right in the Pazazas." "I'm all dolled up." The pictures are ours--Loud cries of "Author-Author." From Hixmaddog at AOL.COM Sat Sep 29 23:48:28 2001 From: Hixmaddog at AOL.COM (Steve Hicks) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 19:48:28 EDT Subject: Jackleg Message-ID: Thank all of you for the input on jackleg/jakeleg/jake brakes: the usual mixture of erudition, wisecracks, informed specu- lation, and inimitable "other" that I so love about this list and its contributors. Have at least some good general possibilities in mind now for the derivation of "jackleg" and "jakeleg"...and the latter's merely fortuitous (though Jacobs Manufacturing Company might consider it otherwise) connection to "jake brake." Wondering now what are the parameters for "jackleg" ? As Jonathan Green mentioned, it seems usually applied to "various incompetent, unskilled or unprincipled professionals"...preachers, lawyers, and I believe I've heard doctors so termed. Can't recall an instance of other professions...pharmacists, librarians, etc... it might be applied to, however. On the other hand, "jackleg (car-)mechanic" is well recognized; and again, believe I've heard it of plumbers. So a jackleg (my father's use was that non-specific) can also be blue-collar, I pre- sume ? Finally, Is there included a sense of "self-proclaimed" or "self-taught;" and in the latter case, might a jackleg mechanic (for example) be fully as competent, skilled and principled as Mr. Goodwrench ? Steve Hicks Hicks Information -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 30 00:19:11 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:19:11 EDT Subject: Now You See It... (1903); Soup and Fish (1908) Message-ID: TELL IT TO ME by Ezra Kendall Geifert & Crummel, Cleveland 1903 Kendall's books are about 90 pages each. It's written on one of them that the first three sold over two million copies. Pg. 26: But I stuck to th' "Water wagon"-- Pg. 76: The Stickwell and Stay Plaster Co. (A drawing of this sign, but the text indicates "plaster"=drunk--ed.) Pg. 81: One day, in a "quick lunch" place during th' "rush" hour... Pg. 93: What we did with that sandwich was like a Hermann trick--Now you see it and now you don't-- HOT ASHES by Ezra Kendall J. B. Savage Co., Cleveland 1908 Pg. 68: And you have a different set of cut and dried conversation to go with every suit. (...) One day I went to the races with my dinner suit on and fell asleep--When the usher came around to take a betting order--He woke me up and says--What will it be-- I looked at my clothes and says--Soup and Fish-- When the usher woke me up again he says--What horse do you like in the Hamburger steak-- -------------------------------------------------------- I'LL NEVER BE CURED AND I DON'T MUCH CARE: THE HISTORY OF AN ACUTE ATTACK OF GOLF AND PERTINENT REMARKS RELATING TO VARIOUS PIECES OF TREATMENT by Douglas B. Wesson J. H. Sears & Co., Inc., NY 1928 Also no "mulligan." Pg. 170: No-o-o--you'll do just what I did, you'll accept as truth the old adage, "Spare the turf and spoil the shot"--than which, on my part, was ever anything ever more so? From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sun Sep 30 01:32:12 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:32:12 -0700 Subject: Medjugorje? Message-ID: > A Catholic friend forwarded me the message of September 25th from Medjugorje. > > Apparently, the name of the town means "between the hills." > > I had conjectured that the -jugo- part might mean "south," Jugoslavia (or Yugoslavia) is loosely > "the land of the Southern Slavs," but then there isn't much left over for "between the hills." > > Any ideas? > > > > > > > -- From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sun Sep 30 01:33:55 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:33:55 -0700 Subject: Medjugorje? Message-ID: Joseph: > A Catholic friend forwarded me the message of September 25th from Medjugorje. > > Apparently, the name of the town means "between the hills." > > I had conjectured that the -jugo- part might mean "south," Jugoslavia (or Yugoslavia) is loosely > "the land of the Southern Slavs," but then there isn't much left over for "between the hills." Joseph: YOur first conjecture was right. There isn't anything in the word that would suggest "Yugo"(which is "south" in Slavic languages), but "medju"or its cognates means between in Slavic language. Anne G From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Sun Sep 30 02:09:15 2001 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 22:09:15 EDT Subject: 'gh' in Afghanistan Message-ID: I heard a Pakistani on a radio-call in show refer to Afghanistan and the phoneme after the /f/ was something unusual-- I couldn't tell what. Does anyone know what the 'gh' represents in the native language (s)? Before I heard it I might have guessed it was a voiced velar fricative, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't it. Dale Coye The College of NJ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Sun Sep 30 05:34:11 2001 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 22:34:11 -0700 Subject: jack braking Message-ID: I'm guessing that the meaning of "jack braking" is the same as that for "jake braking" given recently, but I'd like to know if anyone can confirm it. I encountered the term on a sign on a highway in western Oklahoma, miles from anywhere, and couldn't see any particular reason for it other than that the terrain at that point was a roller-coaster series of hills up and down. However, I'm not sure from the description of "jake braking" given why there would be a prohibition against it in such wide-open spaces. I inferred from the description that it might be objected to because of the noise, but this obviously does not apply here. I'm still wondering why it was proscribed in this context. Could it be dangerous? Rudy From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Sep 30 13:19:40 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 09:19:40 -0400 Subject: Jackleg In-Reply-To: <104.9f7da72.28e7b7cc@aol.com> Message-ID: When I was a kid and worked in my parents' paint and wallpaper store, a 'jackleg painter' was a combination of several of the following facts: 1) non-union 2) self-taught 3) unreliable (often suffering from painters' colic, although respected professionals also suggered from this malady) 4) not full-time 5) not skilled (i.e., producing shoddy work, not just failing to appear, failing to pay workers or bills, as is suggested in 3)) 6) worked for less (obviously connected to 1)) In short, it was a "general negative," and any one of these features might have been highlighted in a single instantiation. It would be difficult to say which were the required and which were the optional features for the semantics of it. dInIs PS: Before you ask, "painters' colic" is the need for strong drink after work to cut the paint fumes from your throat. A better excuse than many; at least it fronted a physical rather than psychological need. >Thank all of you for the input on jackleg/jakeleg/jake brakes: >the usual mixture of erudition, wisecracks, informed specu- >lation, and inimitable "other" that I so love about this list and >its contributors. > >Have at least some good general possibilities in mind now >for the derivation of "jackleg" and "jakeleg"...and the latter's >merely fortuitous (though Jacobs Manufacturing Company >might consider it otherwise) connection to "jake brake." > >Wondering now what are the parameters for "jackleg" ? As >Jonathan Green mentioned, it seems usually applied to "various >incompetent, unskilled or unprincipled professionals"...preachers, >lawyers, and I believe I've heard doctors so termed. Can't recall >an instance of other professions...pharmacists, librarians, etc... >it might be applied to, however. > >On the other hand, "jackleg (car-)mechanic" is well recognized; >and again, believe I've heard it of plumbers. So a jackleg (my >father's use was that non-specific) can also be blue-collar, I pre- >sume ? > >Finally, Is there included a sense of "self-proclaimed" or "self-taught;" >and in the latter case, might a jackleg mechanic (for example) be >fully as competent, skilled and principled as Mr. Goodwrench ? > > > > Steve >Hicks > > Hicks >Information -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Sep 30 13:34:37 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 09:34:37 -0400 Subject: Jackleg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Please don't write in about the word "suggered." Just note that the "g" is right next to the "f" on the keyboard. dInIs >When I was a kid and worked in my parents' paint and wallpaper >store, a 'jackleg painter' was a combination of several of the >following facts: > >1) non-union >2) self-taught >3) unreliable (often suffering from painters' colic, although respected > professionals also suggered from this malady) >4) not full-time >5) not skilled (i.e., producing shoddy work, not just failing to >appear, failing > to pay workers or bills, as is suggested in 3)) >6) worked for less (obviously connected to 1)) > >In short, it was a "general negative," and any one of these features >might have been highlighted in a single instantiation. It would be >difficult to say which were the required and which were the optional >features for the semantics of it. > >dInIs > >PS: Before you ask, "painters' colic" is the need for strong drink >after work to cut the paint fumes from your throat. A better excuse >than many; at least it fronted a physical rather than psychological >need. > >>Thank all of you for the input on jackleg/jakeleg/jake brakes: >>the usual mixture of erudition, wisecracks, informed specu- >>lation, and inimitable "other" that I so love about this list and >>its contributors. >> >>Have at least some good general possibilities in mind now >>for the derivation of "jackleg" and "jakeleg"...and the latter's >>merely fortuitous (though Jacobs Manufacturing Company >>might consider it otherwise) connection to "jake brake." >> >>Wondering now what are the parameters for "jackleg" ? As >>Jonathan Green mentioned, it seems usually applied to "various >>incompetent, unskilled or unprincipled professionals"...preachers, >>lawyers, and I believe I've heard doctors so termed. Can't recall >>an instance of other professions...pharmacists, librarians, etc... >>it might be applied to, however. >> >>On the other hand, "jackleg (car-)mechanic" is well recognized; >>and again, believe I've heard it of plumbers. So a jackleg (my >>father's use was that non-specific) can also be blue-collar, I pre- >>sume ? >> >>Finally, Is there included a sense of "self-proclaimed" or "self-taught;" >>and in the latter case, might a jackleg mechanic (for example) be >>fully as competent, skilled and principled as Mr. Goodwrench ? >> >> >> >> Steve >>Hicks >> >> Hicks >>Information > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >Department of Linguistics and Languages >Michigan State University >East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA >preston at pilot.msu.edu >Office: (517)353-0740 >Fax: (517)432-2736 -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Sep 30 01:55:51 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 09:55:51 +0800 Subject: double possessives In-Reply-To: <99.1b63a07a.28e76433@aol.com> Message-ID: At 1:51 PM -0400 9/29/01, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >Beautiful--thanks so much for the example. > >Of course, the fact that people use the construction regularly will not >convince some formalist linguists that it is "grammatical." > Now, wait a minute, Ron. If you're talking about prescriptivists, fine. But some of my best friends are formal linguists (I think that's the same as what you're calling "formalist linguists", but yours sounds more like a slur), and I can't think of any offhand who would respond in the way you predict. When double modals began to be described, formal approaches to syntax undertook to describe the various dialects by tweaking the description in various ways, but nobody dismissed the data as ungrammatical. Yes, if someone says something on a given occasion without "using the construction regularly", it might be treated as a performance error or as performance technique ("playing around" with one's competence), but well attested realities of regional or social variation are usually if not always taken seriously in formal grammatical research, if the researchers are aware of the variants in question. (A more accurate criticism might be that some grammatical researchers--say, someone writing a description of the internal structure of English noun phrases, or determiner phrases, whatever they're being called now--would simply ignore the datum, but I think if you pushed them they would concede that while grammatical, the datum would complicate their analysis--not that it's ungrammatical, but that it provides an unwelcome complication they can't deal with. But this is at least as true for descriptive grammarians like Quirk et al. as it is for theoretical syntacticians who in my experience are often looking for new constructions and complications to write a paper about.) larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Sep 30 02:05:53 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:05:53 +0800 Subject: More Frenchified? In-Reply-To: <14d.1c6bbc6.28e79442@aol.com> Message-ID: At 5:16 PM -0400 9/29/01, Ittaob at AOL.COM wrote: >In a message dated 9/29/01 5:05:19 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes: > ><< -----Original Message----- >> Behalf Of Kim & Rima McKinzey >> >> On the phone to the reservation person for the Westin >> Hotel chain, I >> asked if she knew how one got from the airport to the hotel in >> question. She said, several times and very clearly, that >> I'd have to >> talk to the "conseeAIR." >> >> Could this be because this sounds more French than >> concierge? It's a >> new one for me. >> >> Rima >> > >This is similar to the common (mis)pronunciation of "coup de grace" as "koo >de GRAH". There seems to be a widespread misconception among Americans that >final French consonant sounds are never pronounced. > >Steve Boatti Please let's not go around on this again. This was the point we raised less than two weeks ago when the topic first came up. My posting in response to Rima's observation from 9/21: ============ I'm sure it is. The hyper-Frenchification I've noticed most often is "COO D'GRAH" for coup de grace. The rule seems to be "don't pronounce the last consonant", period. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Sep 30 02:16:18 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:16:18 +0800 Subject: Jackleg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:19 AM -0400 9/30/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >When I was a kid and worked in my parents' paint and wallpaper >store, a 'jackleg painter' was a combination of several of the >following facts: > >1) non-union >2) self-taught >3) unreliable ... When *I* was a kid (in NYC) we didn't know from jacklegs (jackknives, yes, but not jacklegs), but in at least one traditional song a 'jackleg miner' satisfies just one criterion, your (1), with the further implication 'employed as a strike-breaker: = scab' larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Sep 30 15:36:42 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:36:42 EDT Subject: Jackleg Message-ID: In a message dated 09/30/2001 9:11:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > When I was a kid and worked in my parents' paint and wallpaper store, > a 'jackleg painter' was a combination of several of the following > facts: > > 1) non-union > 2) self-taught > 3) unreliable (often suffering from painters' colic, although respected > professionals also suggered from this malady) > 4) not full-time > 5) not skilled (i.e., producing shoddy work, not just failing to > appear, failing to pay workers or bills, as is suggested in 3)) > 6) worked for less (obviously connected to 1)) > > In short, it was a "general negative," and any one of these features > might have been highlighted in a single instantiation. In the fall of 1966 an acquaintance of mine boasted to me that he was "a good jackleg psychologist." He meant it as self-promotion, of course. In fact the only thing he was good at was self-promotion---his advice was generally bad and I personally am convinced hurt the scholastic careers of several fellow students. In other words, he was unintentially being truthful about meeting criteria 3) and 5) above. The point however is that "jackleg psychologist" could and did have a positive meaning. Don't forget that there is in US culture a large set of legends of the basement inventor, the skilled pioneer, the amateur who shows up the experts. This is not a myth---many many examples can be cited of each. Conclusion: "jackleg" can be either negative (as Dennis Preston cites above) or positive, depending on context. - Jim Landau P.S. I thought "instantiation" was a word used only by computer programmers, but M-W cites "instantiate" as from 1949. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 30 16:55:28 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:55:28 EDT Subject: Detroit, Pittsburgh get "Windy City" wrong! Message-ID: This is amazing. I did my "Windy City" work five years ago. It's wrong again today. Any good suggestions on what I should do? From a check of the Dow Jones database: How the Windy City Got its Name Gerry Volgenau, Detroit Free Press 9-30-2001 Pittsburgh Post Gazette, E-6 Yes, Chicago is windy, especially in the loop. But the nickname "Windy City" dates to 1890, when Chicago was vying with New York for the 1892 World's Fair. "Don't pay attention to the nonsensical claims of that windy city," said Charles Dana, editor of the New York Sun, speaking of Chicago's blowhard politicians. "Its people," Dana wrote, couldn't build a World's Fair if they won it." As it turned out, Chicago did win the World's Fair, but the name stuck. From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Sep 30 17:23:06 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:23:06 -0400 Subject: 'gh' in Afghanistan Message-ID: If I may offer a conjecture in its purest form, since Persian is allied to Sanskrit, the "gh" could be a transliteration of the fourth letter in the first row of the Devanagari grid (k, kh, g, gh, ng), hence a velar aspirate, i.e., if I recall Grade 5 correctly. Monier-Williams illustrates this sound with "loghut," but does that do justice to the syllable boundary? Any Persian scholars among us? Dale Coye wrote: > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: 7bit From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 30 19:32:31 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 15:32:31 EDT Subject: Swell Foop (Gracie Allen?); Marina Sauce (1946) Message-ID: FELL SWOOP/SWELL FOOP From Clementine Paddleford in the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 7 January 1946, pg. 13, col. 6: "SWELL FOOP"--Joyce Staruch, Mrs. George jr. to be exact, held open house a week ago Sunday so that her returned captain husband could say hello again to his old friends in one "swell foop," to borrow from Gracie Allen. --------------------------------------------------------MARINA SAUCE From the NYHT, 5 January 1946, pg. 9, col. 5: The foundation of this kitchen's cuisine is olive oil, garlic and marina sauce. What's marina sauce? Olive oil and garlic with tomato added, all cooked down together to a thick jelly goodness. ("Marinara sauce was added" appears lower in the same column. A typo?...I'm trying to stay away from newspaper editors and sharp objects today--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Sep 30 07:34:25 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 15:34:25 +0800 Subject: Ezra Kendall's SPOTS OF WIT AND HUMOR (1899) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:12 PM -0400 9/28/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >SPOTS OF WIT AND HUMOR >AS TOLD BY EZRA KENDALL >Helman Taylor Co. >Cleveland, Ohio >1899 > >... > >(The following "Fruit and Vegetable Handicap" is useful perhaps for >"Big Apple" in horseracing. This routine was probably a horseracing >cliche in the early 1900s--ed.) > >Pg. 66: > The next race was a sort of (Pg. 67--ed.) Fruit and Vegetable Handicap. > In th' paddock, before th' race, I heard one of th' trainers say >to a jockey, "Water Melon, and warm up Potatoes." > "I'd like to win a stake with Mushrooms, but," he says, "If that >California pair gets ahead of Lettuce you'll see Sugar beat." > "Of all th' string, Beans is th' best; > Asparagrass tips are no good." > When th' race was being run I was in th' pool room, listening to >th' telegraph operator. > He says, "They're off--Grape's in th' bunch." Th' man next to >me must have had Grapes, for th' minute he heard "Grapes" he had >gripes. And Grapes in th' bunch (Pg. 68--ed.) was enough to give a >man gripes in th' bunch. > Then th' operator went on, "Onions coming strong; Skin on th' >outside; Raddish wins--pulled up." > And th' judges scolded th' jockey for pulling up th' horse--Raddish. The classic version of this is the Spike Jones patter. Not original, as the above makes it clear, but a lot more polished. larry From rwbailey at UMICH.EDU Sun Sep 30 20:59:14 2001 From: rwbailey at UMICH.EDU (Richard W. Bailey) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 16:59:14 -0400 Subject: Change in Present-Day American English Message-ID: I am attempting to make a list of changes in progress right now, particularly phonological ones. My purpose is to provide a foundation for people teaching American English or HEL, and students love to find that they and their neighbors speak differently from one another. Could you please reply to me directly (and not to the list solely): rwbailey at umich.edu From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Sep 30 21:25:11 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 16:25:11 -0500 Subject: Detroit, Pittsburgh get "Windy City" wrong! Message-ID: Barry asks "What should I do?" My suggestion is to have a compilation of Barry's "Windy City" treatments appear in an issue of my "Comments on Etymology" (elsewhere would be okay too). Then, when a newspaper presents the wrong etymology, an ads-l member (say, Allan Metcalf, Sheidlower, or I) could send the errant journalist a copy of the compiled "Windy City" treatment with a brief cover letter. I'll start the compilation myself and give Barry a holler if I'm missing anything. ---Gerald Cohen On an unrelated note, can anyone provide me the dates of Minna Irving, who wrote the poem "Betsy's Battle Flag" (possibly of relevance to "Heavens to Betsy"). I'm having trouble locating those dates and the date she wrote "Betsy's Battle Flag." Ads-l member Jan Ivarsson once gave her dates as 1857-1940, but in an Internet search I found (but can't locate again) 1872 as her birth date. Fred Shapiro has found an 1878 attestation of "Heavens to Betsy," and so if Minna Irving was in fact born in 1872, that would rule out her poem as having contributed to the start of "Heavens to Betsy." >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 >From: Bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: Detroit, Pittsburgh get "Windy City" wrong! >Comments: cc: dwycliff at tribune.com, ombudsman at cbc.ca, refdesk at chipublib.org >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > This is amazing. > I did my "Windy City" work five years ago. It's wrong again >today. Any good suggestions on what I should do? > From a check of the Dow Jones database: > >How the Windy City Got its Name >Gerry Volgenau, Detroit Free Press > >9-30-2001 >Pittsburgh Post Gazette, E-6 > > Yes, Chicago is windy, especially in the loop. > But the nickname "Windy City" dates to 1890, when Chicago was >vying with New York for the 1892 World's Fair. > "Don't pay attention to the nonsensical claims of that windy >city," said Charles Dana, editor of the New York Sun, speaking of >Chicago's blowhard politicians. > "Its people," Dana wrote, couldn't build a World's Fair if they won it." > As it turned out, Chicago did win the World's Fair, but the name stuck. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 30 21:42:02 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:42:02 EDT Subject: A Winner Never Quits; Tin Pan Alley; Gray Lady Message-ID: CORRECTION: "Fell Swoop" should be page 15, not page 13. The copy was difficult to read. -------------------------------------------------------- A WINNER NEVER QUITS, AND A QUITTER NEVER WINS (continued) From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 2 February 1946, pg. 16, col. 1: _"A Winner Never Quits"_ (...) "You know, said Gabby (Street, a boxing manager--ed.), a great man for quoting proverbs, "a quitter never wins and a winner never quits. And this Watkins is a winner." -------------------------------------------------------- TIN PAN ALLEY (continued) From the NYHT, 11 January 1946, pg. 18, col. 3: _Harry von Tolzer Dies at 73;_ _Wrote Hundreds of Song Hits_ ---------------------------- _Coiner of Phrase "Tin Pan_ _Alley" Was Author and_ _Publisher Here Since '92_ (He was famous, certainly. He possibly coined it, but my early "Tin Pan Alley" cites don't give anyone credit--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- GRAY LADY (continued) The New York Times is the Old Gray Lady. The NYHT, 31 January 1946, pg. 22, col. 8, describes a "Red Cross Gray Lady." A possible influence? -------------------------------------------------------- BEEFSTEAK CHARLIE A New York trade name, but see also my work on the older "Champagne Charlie." From the NYHT, 25 January 1946, pg. 16, col. 5: _Charles Chessar Dies at 77;_ _Original "Beefsteak Charlie"_ (...) The steak house for twenty years after World War I, with its old brown bar, red-backed chairs and the high walls papered with the pictures of horses and "spills," was a meeting place for track followers. It was known, too, for twelve-egg lemon meringue pies, for steaks juicy and large. -------------------------------------------------------- ANY WAY THE WIND BLOWS, DOESN'T REALLY MATTER TO ME... I'd previously posted the Chicago Tribune errors of June 2001, and then August 4, 2001 ("Ask Tom Why"). There were THREE. THREE! The third--after I'd complained to the Public Editor at least twice--is by far the worst. It states that "Windy City" was coined _during_ the 1893 fair! From the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, 23 August 2001, section 2, pg. 10. col. 2: _WEATHER WORD_ Windy City: In 1893, New York Sun editor Charles Dana, tired of hearing Chicagoans boasting of the huge success of Chicago's 1893 World's Columbian Exposition, dubbed Chicago the "Windy City." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 30 21:52:48 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:52:48 EDT Subject: Tin Pan Alley Message-ID: Harry von TILZER, of "Down Where the Wursburger Flows," "Wait Till the Sun Shines Nellie" "A Bird in a Gilded Cage" "I Want a Girl Just Like the Girl Who Married Dear Old Dad" I noticed some more, important stuff, later in the two-column obituary. From the NYHT, 11 January 1946, pg. 18, col. 3: A newspaper reporter, Monroe H. Rosenfeld, found Mr. Von Tilzer playing one day on a piano muted with newspaper stuck between the keys and the strings, and asked, "What kind of a tin pan do you call that?" Mr. Von Tilzer laughed and said, "This street must sound like a tin-pan alley with so many pianos making such a din." The reporter called his story, "Tin-Pan Alley," and the name stuck. ("Silicon Alley" was named by New York Sun editor Charles A. Dana in 1893, just beating T. A. Dorgan to the punch--ed.) From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Sep 30 23:24:00 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:24:00 -0400 Subject: Tin Pan Alley In-Reply-To: <8b.cf1d1d3.28e8ee30@aol.com> Message-ID: On 9/30/01 17:52, "Bapopik at AOL.COM" wrote: > A newspaper reporter, Monroe H. Rosenfeld, found Mr. Von Tilzer playing one > day on a piano muted with newspaper stuck between the keys and the strings, > and asked, "What kind of a tin pan do you call that?" Mr. Von Tilzer laughed > and said, "This street must sound like a tin-pan alley with so many pianos > making such a din." The reporter called his story, "Tin-Pan Alley," and the > name stuck. Why do stories giving dubious credit to someone for coining a word or phrase always seem to end with "...and the name stuck"? -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Sep 30 23:23:42 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 18:23:42 -0500 Subject: Heavens to Betsy; and thanx Message-ID: My thanx go to George Cole for his reply to my query on Minna Irving, which I now share with ads-l (below my signoff) And yes, the 1878 "Heavens to Betsy" comes from Making of America. Fred Shapiro had written: > "OED2's first use for "Heavens to Betsy/Betsey" is dated >1892. Making of America yields the following earlier example: >'1878 Harper's New Monthly Mag. Sept. 582 "Heavens-to-Betsy! You > don't think I ever see a copper o' her cash, do ye?'" Although Minna Irving's poem "Betsy's Battle Flag" is now removed as a possible influence on the start of "Heavens to Betsy," I still think it's possible that Betsy Ross might have inspired the exclamation. Like "Goodness gracious me" (probably elliptical for "May Goodness (i.e., God) be gracious to me)," "Heavens to Betsy" might have been elliptical for "May the heavens be gracious to Betsy." Betsy Ross has long been a cherished figure in the history of the Revolution, and she suffered sufficient hardship in her life to deserve special consideration from heaven.The Betsy Ross homepage (http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/index.html) says: "The story of Betsy Ross's Life is one of triumph through adversity. She was disowned by the Quakers [for marrying outside the faith]. She lost one husband to an explosion at a munitions depot that he was guarding. Her second husband died in a British prison. She survived her third husband, who was sick for many years. She had seven daughters, two of whom died in infancy. She maintained a business through it all. By the way, her pew was next to George Washington's at Christ Church." ---Gerald Cohen >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 18:35:34 -0400 >From: GSCole To: Gerald Cohen >Subject: ..Irving b. date?.. > >I found the following site, which lists Minna Irving as being born in >1872 (b. 1872). Hope that it is of use. > >As for the 1878 attestation of "Heavens to Betsy", my presumption is >that it is the September 1878 item, available at MOA-Cornell. If not, >please let me know. > >George Cole > >http://cgibin.erols.com/kfraser/union/postwar/marching.html From funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM Sun Sep 30 23:12:01 2001 From: funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM (Jordan Rich) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:12:01 -0400 Subject: johnson bar In-Reply-To: <3BB5C4D1.5E224DB6@mtnhome.com> Message-ID: At 07:55 AM 9/29/01 -0500, you wrote: >Also the name of a heavy lever used to remove railroad spikes and moving >heavy equipment, from there, the concept of a heavy bar, quickly became >in slang another name for a penis, as in "I showed her my really big >johnson" , A revelation for me as I had heard/read? that the boxer Jack Johnson's sexual exploits was the origination of this usage. Jordan From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Sep 1 00:31:07 2001 From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 19:31:07 -0500 Subject: Query: "Spanish Practices" Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 1 05:41:37 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 01:41:37 EDT Subject: Alex Frankel pinch-hits for Safire Message-ID: Alex Frankel pinch hits for William Safire in this Sunday's "On Langugage" column. No Fred Shapiro, unfortunately. Alex Frankel? Related to Max Frankel, perhaps--the longtime NY Times writer? From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sat Sep 1 09:59:17 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 10:59:17 +0100 Subject: "Check to see if my bicycle is still there" Message-ID: FWIW: a good friend invariably announces that 'I'm going to turn my bike around' when vanishing to the bathroom. He is also an on-and-off visitor to Poland, but this may be coincidence. Jonathon Green From douglas at NB.NET Sat Sep 1 14:28:13 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 10:28:13 -0400 Subject: Where He lost them Message-ID: For those who like quaint (American[?]) expressions, a question .... Any takers? Whence the expression "where Jesus lost his shoes", = "way out in the sticks/boondocks/wilderness" or " out in the end of nowhere"? I've heard only this form. Google search doesn't show it on the Web, but I get three hits for "where Jesus lost his sandals" and one for "where Christ lost his shoes", in the same sense. Is this from some Bible story? -- Doug Wilson From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Sat Sep 1 15:29:38 2001 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 17:29:38 +0200 Subject: Where He lost them Message-ID: > For those who like quaint (American[?]) expressions, a question .... Any > takers? > > Whence the expression "where Jesus lost his shoes", = "way out in the > sticks/boondocks/wilderness" or " out in the end of nowhere"? > > I've heard only this form. Google search doesn't show it on the Web, but I > get three hits for "where Jesus lost his sandals" and one for "where Christ > lost his shoes", in the same sense. > > Is this from some Bible story? > -- Doug Wilson I don't think it's from the Bible, because I know my Bible and I don't recall Jesus losing his sandals. But as a native speaker of Chilean Spanish I can tell you that way out in the boonies is "donde el diablo perdi? el poncho," where the devil lost his poncho. In Chile the devil is always getting into trouble, or at least he used to when I was a kid. I happen to know that the devil lost his poncho in Thollon-les-M?mises, the village in the French Alps where I happen to live. I found it the other day and judging by the size of it, the devil is a dwarf. Paul _________________________________ Paul Frank English translation from Chinese, German, French, Italian, Spanish and Portuguese Business, law and the social sciences Phone (France) +33 450 70 99 90 paulfrank at post.harvard.edu paulfrank at wanadoo.fr From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 1 22:19:14 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 18:19:14 EDT Subject: "Girls who sell mushrooms" Message-ID: GIRLS WHO SELL MUSHROOMS--Hookers. They're alongside the road at major highways (Poland and other countries), wearing short pants. My guide said they stand close to some places that sell mushrooms, so they've been given this name. It looks like "I've gone out to check the price of mushrooms" is going to be a standard joke for a few days here. But beware--they probably carry a fungus. HUNGARIAN DOGS--salt carts (used in the closed salt mine I visited today, a UNESCO World Heritage site). SNOWMAN--salt blocks. SHORT CUT TO CHINA--the salt mine (used by a salt mine tour guide). NIGHT BAR--another "bar." Does it sell nights? 24/24--used in a store that also has "nonstop." Not 0/24? ZARKOJE--a meal at a Ukrainian restaurant here. OED? I HAD TO TALK TO THE BIG EAR--Another "gone to the toilet" one, according to my guide. BE CAREFUL. HE HAS A RUBBER EAR--he spreads what you say all around town. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Sat Sep 1 20:15:39 2001 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 16:15:39 -0400 Subject: Where He lost them Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2001 10:28:13 -0400 "Douglas G. Wilson" > > Whence the expression "where Jesus lost his shoes" Sandal. D From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 2 19:41:55 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 15:41:55 EDT Subject: Dance Dance Revolution (DDR) Message-ID: G'day from Gdynia, part of the tri-city area with Gdansk. From USA TODAY, Friday, 31 August-2 September 2001 (a three-day, blockbuster USA TODAY), pg. 11B, col. 3: Dubbed Bemani games (for "beat mania"), they include contests that involve strumming guitars, beating drums and playing keyboards. (Col. 5 box--ed.) _The DDR experience_ _Bar hugger:_ Novice player who relies too heavily on the support bar that backs DDR's dance platform. _Bong Thomas:_ Trick move in which expert player grabs the bar to swing around it, circling the dance floor in the process. _Catastrophic:_ The highest level of DDR play. _Great attack:_ When a player is aiming for the most "perfect" sequences possible. _Hand plant:_ Using a hand to slap the dance floor arrow. _Hidden:_ Experts only: a level of play in which the monitor's arrows disappear before reaching the top of the screen, requiring the players to memorize the routine. _Left foot only:_ Or LFO, just as it sound; using only that foot to play. Also RFO. _Matrix walk:_ Using the bar, the player lifts up horizontal to the floor and places feet on the screen; frowned on by the arcade owners. Source: ddrfreak.com From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Sep 2 23:54:21 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 19:54:21 -0400 Subject: Dance Dance Revolution (DDR) In-Reply-To: <123.41c393d.28c3e584@aol.com> Message-ID: > Why does Barry continue this Polish bullshit? Does he have the same tourguide in the north that he had in the south? The tri-city area is Gdansk, Gdynia, and Sopot, and he makes it sound like a bad Polish joke - a tri-city area with two cities. Not so Barry - almost as big a mistake as the Windy City and the Big Apple, if I may rub salt in the wounds. dInIs > G'day from Gdynia, part of the tri-city area with Gdansk. > From USA TODAY, Friday, 31 August-2 September 2001 (a three-day, >blockbuster USA TODAY), pg. 11B, col. 3: > > Dubbed Bemani games (for "beat mania"), they include contests >that involve strumming guitars, beating drums and playing keyboards. > >(Col. 5 box--ed.) > >_The DDR experience_ > >_Bar hugger:_ Novice player who relies too heavily on the support >bar that backs DDR's dance platform. >_Bong Thomas:_ Trick move in which expert player grabs the bar to >swing around it, circling the dance floor in the process. >_Catastrophic:_ The highest level of DDR play. >_Great attack:_ When a player is aiming for the most "perfect" >sequences possible. >_Hand plant:_ Using a hand to slap the dance floor arrow. >_Hidden:_ Experts only: a level of play in which the monitor's >arrows disappear before reaching the top of the screen, requiring >the players to memorize the routine. >_Left foot only:_ Or LFO, just as it sound; using only that foot to >play. Also RFO. >_Matrix walk:_ Using the bar, the player lifts up horizontal to the >floor and places feet on the screen; frowned on by the arcade owners. > >Source: ddrfreak.com -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Sep 3 01:48:37 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:48:37 -0500 Subject: Allen Walker Read's new book Message-ID: I have received word that the eminent scholar Allen Walker Read (now in his 90's) has a book coming out entitled _America--Naming The Country And Its People_. (The Edwin Mellen Press/Order Fulfillment Dept., PO Box 450/Lewiston, NY 14092-0450.)----customer service e-mail" cs at wzrd.com Cost: $89 + $5.00 for shipping & handling. Discounts of 20% for individuals who use their Mastercard, Visa or American express and order by phone--U.S./Canada (716) 754-2788; U.K. (01570) 423-356 The flyer says: "This book does an important service to scholarship by rescuing the hitherto scattered and unpublished talks that Allen Walker Read, considered the dean of onomastics, gave to The American Name Society and other learned societies. Each of these papers bears the mark of an inquiring, industrious, and insightful scholar whom Oxford University (where he was a Rhodes Scholar) eventually honored with a doctorate of letters." There are two testimonials, which I quote in part: 1) "Professor Read is the dean of American place name scholars, and this book is a collection of (mainly short) fugitive pieces by him, never before published. ..."---Charles A. Huttar 2) "Allen Walker read is the most scholarly person to have addressed historical questions of onomastics in America, and these papers are a significant contribution that will be valued by others in the field. ..." -- Richard W. Bailey Twenty-six items are listed for the table of contents, of which a few are: 1) The Claims for a Native Source of the Name _America_. 2) What Area Does the Name _America_ Refer to? 3) Rival Etymologies of _Yankee_ 4) _Gothamites_, _East Villagers_, _Morningsiders_, and _Big Applians_ 5) Who were the Aberginians? 6) The Naming of the Confederacy. 7) _Maniacs_, _Michiganders_, _Nebraskals_, Arkansawyers_ Incidentally, I have no connection with the publication of this book, and I post this notice solely out of my deep admiration for Allen Walker Read and his work. His book belongs on the shelves of every university library, as well as some private ones, of course. ---Gerald Cohen From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Sep 3 03:45:50 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 23:45:50 EDT Subject: Allen Walker Read has TWO new books Message-ID: In addition to the $89 collection of Allen Walker Read's onomastics essays that Gerald Cohen refers to (_America--Naming The Country And Its People_.), the Duke University Press will publish, as the next volume in the Publication of the American Dialect Society Series, a collection of Read's other linguistic essays. Because this is the NEXT issue of PADS, all members of the American Dialect Society will receive this book free of charge. The title of the book is _Milestones in the History of English in America_. It is edited by Richard W. Bailey (The University of Michigan) Table of Contents: Preface by Richard W. Bailey Introduction by Richard W. Bailey Essays by Allen Walker Read: ?Early American English ?Milestones in the Branching of British and American English ?The Embattled Dominance of English in the United States ?The Impact of 'Ethnicity' on Attitudes toward the English Language ?British Recognition of American Speech in the Eighteenth-Century ?Amphi-Atlantic English ?The Assimilation of the Speech of British Immigrants in Colonial America ?The Distinguishing Features of American Talk ?Words Indicating Social Status in America in the Eighteenth Century ?The Allegiance to Dictionaries in American Linguistic Attitudes ?O. K. ?The Evidence on 'OK' ?The First Stage in the History of 'O. K.' ?The Second Stage in the History of 'O. K.' ?Later Stages in the History of 'O. K.' ?Successive Revisions in the Explanation of 'O. K.' ?The Folklore of 'O. K.' ?Sticking to Facts: A letter to Howard Berthoff ?The F-Word ?An Obscenity Symbol ?A Type of Ostentatious Taboo ?Where Does the Word Come From? (Some Letters). ?A Life in Language ?A Personal Journey through Linguistics ?The Cavalcade of Scholars in American English since 1925 ?Rhodes Scholar From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 3 13:24:32 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:24:32 EDT Subject: Kasownik Message-ID: Greetings from Gdansk. I'm sorry--I did not mean to say that there were only two cities in the tri-city area. I'll be visiting the smallest--Sopot--in about an hour. Zapiekanka (or "Zapiekanki" for plural) was "baked sandwich" in the English on one sign. From TORUN FROM A TO Z (Gdansk, 2000), "Definitions of selected terms appearing in the guide," pg. 68: "kaszownik"--a type of machicolation in the gate wall, used to smite the enemy from above once the portcullis has been forced open. (OED?--ed.) (Torun is famous for Copernicus, but also has great gingerbread. I don't have a unique OED entry/suggestion for gingerbread, though--ed.) From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Sep 3 13:49:30 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:49:30 -0400 Subject: Kasownik In-Reply-To: <165.2c6a75.28c4de90@aol.com> Message-ID: > Barry, Make sure you go not only to the famous beachfront and Grand Hotel (with its lifesize chess pieces) but also to the Baroque church in Sopot which has one of the most elaborate mechanized organs in the world. Drummers drum, knights joust, angels fly and trumpet, etc... "Organ," by the way, is pluralia tantum in Polish, and led to one of my favorite translated notices (in Gdynia): "In this church may be viewed the maginificent organs of St. John." It's almost as good as the Poznan culinary notice "Chickens roasted on spit." dInIs > Greetings from Gdansk. I'm sorry--I did not mean to say that >there were only two cities in the tri-city area. I'll be visiting >the smallest--Sopot--in about an hour. > Zapiekanka (or "Zapiekanki" for plural) was "baked sandwich" in >the English on one sign. > From TORUN FROM A TO Z (Gdansk, 2000), "Definitions of selected >terms appearing in the guide," pg. 68: > >"kaszownik"--a type of machicolation in the gate wall, used to smite >the enemy from above once the portcullis has been forced open. >(OED?--ed.) > >(Torun is famous for Copernicus, but also has great gingerbread. I >don't have a unique OED entry/suggestion for gingerbread, >though--ed.) -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 3 16:55:03 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:55:03 EDT Subject: "Race of Turtles" Message-ID: Sopot had a bicycle race today and the streets were a mess, so I'll visit there first thing tomorrow morning. Two from my tour guide (the same one; he's a student): RACE OF TURTLES--Two slow cars blocking both lanes of a highway. LIKE AN OLD MAN'S ASS--The weather is cold, humid, and windy. From dsgood at VISI.COM Mon Sep 3 21:29:20 2001 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 16:29:20 -0500 Subject: introductory works on North American English? Message-ID: Are there any introductory works on dialects of North American English? As distinguished from ones which discuss the US and Canada as entirely separate regions? Dan Goodman dsgood at visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Sep 3 22:53:46 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 18:53:46 -0400 Subject: "Race of Turtles" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Barry, Try this old Polish proverb out on your guide: LIFE IS LIKE A BABY'S SHIRT: SHORT AND SHITTY. dInIs > Sopot had a bicycle race today and the streets were a mess, so >I'll visit there first thing tomorrow morning. > Two from my tour guide (the same one; he's a student): > >RACE OF TURTLES--Two slow cars blocking both lanes of a highway. > >LIKE AN OLD MAN'S ASS--The weather is cold, humid, and windy. -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Janievh at AOL.COM Mon Sep 3 23:00:50 2001 From: Janievh at AOL.COM (Janievh at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 19:00:50 EDT Subject: St. Louis Dialect Message-ID: Hi!! My name is Jane van Hool and I am a Dialect Coach in the UK (London). I am working on a play called 'Stairs to the Roof' for the Chichester Festival Theatre and need to know what a modern day St. Louis accent is like. Do you have any phonetics/films I could watch/ TV shows or famous actors I could use as examples of this dialect? Please help!!! Best Jane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 4 14:24:33 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:24:33 EDT Subject: Dumpster Diving & Kites Message-ID: An article on "dumpster diving" and "kites" (corporate espionage) was in last weekend's FINANCIAL TIMES. A book was cited that should be worth reading for these terms. MISC.: I just toured the church where Copernicus is buried...The New York Times, amazingly, still hasn't written an editorial condemning the "Zionism is racism" resolution in Durban. CNN has also been vomit-inducing on this. Did Ted Turner ever give a billion dollars to DARE? A penny? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 5 17:53:16 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:53:16 EDT Subject: Dyngus Day Message-ID: Greetings from Bialystock, Poland. I just finished a tour of Hitler's bunker (Wolfschanze), where there was an assassination attempt in 1944. The tour guide was a nice woman who burst into a "Bridge over the River Kwai"-type tune about Hitler's one ball. (See ADS-L archives.) I return home on Saturday. DYNGUS DAY--See www.dyngusday.com. It's the day after Easter when women have wet T-shirts. Boy, did I tour Poland on the wrong day...This Polish term is not in the OED. Search also for "Smingus Dyngus." BOXING MONDAY--The day after Easter is also called "Boxing Monday." Also not in the OED. COFFIN COMPARTMENT--Visually shown on "Insight" on CNN, in a story about Mexican immigration to the U.S. It's a hidden vehicle compartment where immigrants are stored, but there's little air, and they often suffocate from the vehicle's fumes. Horrible. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 5 19:55:05 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:55:05 EDT Subject: Polish Slang Dictionary Online Message-ID: I've been looking for Polish slang in bookstores, but good stuff appears to be online: www.univ.gda.pl/slang www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3580/polish.htm Both have "pedal" for "homosexual." An English-Polish book of 5,000 terms is THE POLISH-ENGLISH DICTIONARY OF SLANG AND COLLOQUIALISM (1998) by Widawski. This and other books are mentioned at: www.slavica.com/teaching/Riley.html From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Sep 5 20:56:36 2001 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:56:36 -0500 Subject: St. Louis Dialect Message-ID: According to Internet Movie Database, Kevin Kline, Scott Bakula, and Robert Guillaume are natives of StL. The stereotypical accent feature of the dialect is the merger of /ar/ and /or/ which results in 'four' sounding like 'far'. From my casual observations, this is heard mostly from older (50+) speakers; certainly none of my students have this. Younger speakers might have elements of the Northern Cities Shift especially the raising and fronting of /ae/ ('bat' sounds like 'bet'), the fronting of /a/ ('cot' sounds like 'cat') and the lowering or backing of /E/ ('bet' sounds like 'bat' or 'but'). Still, these features are not nearly as well established in StL as in real northern cities like Chicago and Detroit. A well known feature of African-American speech in St. Louis is the backing of /Er/ and/or /Ir/ so that 'here' and possibly 'hair' rhyme with 'fur'. This feature is discussed (and exemplified?) by hip-hop star Nelly on his Country Grammar CD, I think. Janievh at AOL.COM wrote: > Hi!! > > My name is Jane van Hool and I am a Dialect Coach in the UK (London). > I am > working on a play called 'Stairs to the Roof' for the Chichester > Festival > Theatre and need to know what a modern day St. Louis accent is like. > Do you > have any phonetics/films I could watch/ TV shows or famous actors I > could use > as examples of this dialect? > > Please help!!! > > Best > > Jane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Sep 5 21:14:20 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:14:20 -0400 Subject: St Louis dialect Message-ID: Matthew Gordon writes: > According to Internet Movie Database, Kevin Kline, Scott Bakula, and >>Robert Guillaume are natives of StL. So, for that matter, was Vincent Price, but although his diction was considered to be exemplary of American Standard, I don't know that it sheds much light on the special features of St. Louis speech. [My mother (b. 1905) was a St. Louis native, but her speech showed none of the features described in Gordon's post.] A. Murie From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Sep 5 21:31:52 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:31:52 -0400 Subject: JOB: Editorial Assistant, Oxford English Dictionary Message-ID: The Oxford English Dictionary is hiring an editorial assistant. Details can be found at: http://www.oup-usa.org/jobs/display.cgi/169 If you know of anyone who would be a good candidate for this, I'd appreciate it if you could let them know of the possibility. Thanks, and sorry if you've gotten this message through more than one channel. Best, Jesse Sheidlower Oxford English Dictionary From vyer at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Sep 5 22:01:46 2001 From: vyer at EARTHLINK.NET (Leif Knutsen) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:01:46 -0400 Subject: "Leverage" as a verb Message-ID: Maybe I'm too much of a purist, but I was under the impression that using "leverage" as a verb is still something we're hoping won't make it into proper usage. Have I lost this battle, or are authoritative editors still holding out with me? Leif -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drubin at ARCHES.UGA.EDU Wed Sep 5 21:54:06 2001 From: drubin at ARCHES.UGA.EDU (Donald L. Rubin) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:54:06 -0400 Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples Message-ID: On behalf of a MA student who will be conducting a dialect & attitude study, I am seeking to "borrow" some audio samples of matched guise AAVE/SAE speech. That is, one speech sample should be identifiable as some version of African American Vernacular English, and one sample--produced by that same speaker-- should be identifiable as some version of Standard American English. Ideally, the speaker would be an adolescent male, and the topics of the two matched speech samples would be identical (or at least closely related). Thirty years ago, of course, a good deal of social psychological research utilized such matched guise speech samples. But they are apparently hard to come by nowadays. Thanks for any assistance. -- Don Rubin Professor Department of Language Education Department of Speech Communication and the Program in Linguistics 141 Terrell Hall voice: 706.542.3247 or 5674 University of Georgia fax: 706.542.3245 or 4509 Athens, GA 30302-1725 USA email: drubin at uga.edu From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Sep 5 23:46:24 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:46:24 -0400 Subject: Polish Slang Dictionary Online In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No they don't Barry. The final 'l' in "pedal" is not 'l'; it's barred-l (pronounced like a "w' in English. (That's why the bicycle etymology your siily guide gave you was was so glupy. ("Glupy" also with barred-l, meaning "dumb.") DInIs Prestonski > I've been looking for Polish slang in bookstores, but good stuff >appears to be online: > >www.univ.gda.pl/slang >www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3580/polish.htm > > Both have "pedal" for "homosexual." > An English-Polish book of 5,000 terms is THE POLISH-ENGLISH >DICTIONARY OF SLANG AND COLLOQUIALISM (1998) by Widawski. This and >other books are mentioned at: www.slavica.com/teaching/Riley.html -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Sep 5 23:52:37 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:52:37 -0400 Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples In-Reply-To: <3B969EFE.F869F15B@uga.edu> Message-ID: They are not only hard to come by; they are suspect, and, not to seem curmudgeonly, one would expect that researchers would prepare their own stimulus data for such work. dInIs >On behalf of a MA student who will be conducting a dialect & attitude >study, I am seeking to "borrow" some audio samples of matched guise >AAVE/SAE speech. That is, one speech sample should be identifiable as >some version of African American Vernacular English, and one >sample--produced by that same speaker-- should be identifiable as some >version of Standard American English. Ideally, the speaker would be an >adolescent male, and the topics of the two matched speech samples would >be identical (or at least closely related). Thirty years ago, of >course, a good deal of social psychological research utilized such >matched guise speech samples. But they are apparently hard to come by >nowadays. > >Thanks for any assistance. >-- >Don Rubin >Professor >Department of Language Education >Department of Speech Communication > and the Program in Linguistics >141 Terrell Hall voice: 706.542.3247 or 5674 >University of Georgia fax: 706.542.3245 or 4509 >Athens, GA 30302-1725 USA email: drubin at uga.edu -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Sep 5 23:56:36 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:56:36 -0400 Subject: "Leverage" as a verb In-Reply-To: <009f01c13656$5b7e5d60$9178c7d0@LKNUTSENT20> Message-ID: Leif, Please send a list of authoritative editors to me for review; I'll let you know in a later posting whether they really are. I'm the last word on this crap; I leveraged myself into the position. dInIs PS: As you can see from my last two posts, you shouldn't check your mail right after dinner - at least not when it includes a delicious bottle of Te Kairanga Sauvignon Blanc (New Zealand). Get one and drink it. Thank me later. >Maybe I'm too much of a purist, but I was under the impression that >using "leverage" as a verb is still something we're hoping won't >make it into proper usage. Have I lost this battle, or are >authoritative editors still holding out with me? > >Leif -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From douglas at NB.NET Thu Sep 6 07:51:31 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 03:51:31 -0400 Subject: A question for lexicographers Message-ID: Recently a correspondent asked me about the origin of the word "poontang". I consulted the standard references, which mostly agreed with my first impression that it is derived from French "putain". OED, M-W, AHD, Cassell's slang dictionary, and many others cite only this derivation (some with 'perhaps', 'probably', etc.). My Random House dictionary expresses doubt on phonetic and semantic grounds, and cites a possible origin in a minor language of Sierra Leone -- IMHO absurdly implausible in the absence of strong confirming data. Partridge also demurs, and prefers an (apparently unspecified) Amerind origin -- a priori very implausible IMHO ... as well as inchoate. My question is this: Is the putative origin from French based only on a plausibility argument (i.e., the sense is right, the phonetics is right, the milieu is right [via Louisiana French or post WW I]), or is there some actual evidence of the derivation (e.g., early attestations of transitional forms, or memoirs from ca. 1920 stating that the word came from France or New Orleans or wherever)? I agree with the apparent majority view that the French derivation is plausible on all three grounds. But I have developed at least one alternative derivation which seems at least equally plausible, yet which I've never seen explicitly presented anywhere: before I do further 'research', I'd like to know whether there is firm (or somewhat firm) evidence for the derivation from "putain". Can any of the lexicographers (or other scholars) help me? -- Doug Wilson From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Sep 6 10:33:21 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:33:21 -0400 Subject: "Leverage" as a verb Message-ID: leverage, v. Third Barnhart Dictionary of New English (e.q.=1957) Macquarie Dictionary of New English Oxford Dictionary of New Words Bloomsbury, Neologisms New Words since 1960 I would guess that by now it's at least informal. Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] barnhart at highlands.com www.highlands.com/Lexik "Necessity obliges us to neologize." Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Sep 6 11:26:29 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:26:29 +0100 Subject: A question for lexicographers Message-ID: >My question is this: Is the putative origin from French based only on a >plausibility argument (i.e., the sense is right, the phonetics is right, >the milieu is right [via Louisiana French or post WW I]), or is there some >actual evidence of the derivation (e.g., early attestations of transitional >forms, or memoirs from ca. 1920 stating that the word came from France or >New Orleans or wherever)? I went for 'putain' in CDS and, as you note, added a '?'. Partridge was a great slang collector, but he would always prefer to essay a guess (albeit informed) than emulate when it came to etymologies that initially defeated him. I too cannot accept his links to the Philippines or Amerindia. As to the crux of the question - early evidence - I cannot, alas, help. Might the OED know? The only thing that I would add is a possible link to the Caribbean 'punany'/'punaani' (I'm not sure that there is an established spelling (cits to date include both of those plus 'punyani', 'poonany' and 'punani'), meaning vagina, and used in the same ways, lit. and fig. that 'cunt' is in 'standard' slang. Unfortunately Allsopp has chosen to exclude it, he presumably sees it as overly coarse, from the Dict. Caribbean English Usage, nor is it in Cassidy & LePage's earlier Dict. of Jamaican English. I cannot offer a precise ety. though there maybe links to the synon. 'pum-pum' (which is rooted in W. African Krio) or S. Afr. 'pundu' , itself from Xhosa 'impundu', buttocks or vagina. All that suggsted, I have no cit. for 'punany' earlier than 1980s. One further suggestion, which you may not have seen, is in Major's dict. of black slang, Juba to Jive. He dates it 1700s-1940s and spells it variously 'poontang' and 'puntang'. I cannot accept the first date (and surely he's cut off its use very prematurely) but, as is often his way with a number of terms to which ascribes W. African origins, he sees it as coming to the US with the early slaves, and being rooted in " 'puntuny' (Lima) and/or 'mu ntanga' (Bantu)" - both W. African langs. and both meaning vagina, sexual intercourse and black female sexuality; these roots then 'converged with 'putain ' " Unfortunately his sources, primarily Edith Folb and contemporary oral, offer no proof as to this 18C, or even 19C use. Jonathon Green From vyer at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 6 13:01:48 2001 From: vyer at EARTHLINK.NET (Leif Knutsen) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:01:48 -0400 Subject: "Leverage" as a verb Message-ID: I'm still looking for those editors with real authority, but in the meantime I looked other places. As David Barnhart shows in the e-mail (way) below, "leverage" as a verb seems to be a new word that has crept into common usage. I'm a management consultant, and in my field the term has come into use as a synonym for "use," "take advantage of," "exploit," "apply," or even "enhance." For example, "we will help you find ways to better leverage your customer intelligence." It's clearly become part of the consulting "dialect" (aka "consultingese"), but that might actually be a bad thing. Dictionaries The following standard dictionaries do not allow that leverage can be a verb: Macquarie Dictionary, Random House Webster, and XRefer. It's Interesting that several online dictionaries allow "leverage" as a verb for the narrow meaning of borrowing money to control a corporation, thereby creating leverage from a small amount of equity. These dictionaries include The Cambridge Dictionary of American English, (but not the Cambridge International Dictionary), Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, and The New Shorter English Dictionary, which suggests "lever" as a synonym. David Barnhart writes that "leverage" as a verb has come into informal usage and cites The Barnhart Dictionary of New English, Macquarie Dictionary of New English, Oxford Dictionary of New Words, and Bloomsbury, Neologisms of New Words Since 1960. The only dictionary that allows "leverage" as a verb as to "improve" or "enhance" is the American Heritage Dictionary (the source for dictionary.com). Style guides The New York Times Style Guide makes no particular mention of it, and neither do the half dozen other style guides I found at Barnes & Noble. I have the Economist Style Guide buries somewhere in my basement but couldn't find it. One usage guide did, however bring it up: Dictionary of Modern American Usage, Bryan Garner: [cites it as a strictly financial term, but then writes] The term has a definitive meaning, but nevertheless may be characterized as a term used primarily by financial jargonmongers. (See "jargon") >From the OECD Style Guide: Trendy expressions soon become tired expressions. To keep your writing fresh, steer clear of buzzwords such as leverage (as a verb), paradigm and sea change, as well as clich?s such as state-of-the-art and cross-cutting. Your text may seem more topical if you sprinkle in a globalisation here, a sustainability there, but are these voguish (albeit vital) concepts really pertinent to your subject? From the Free Online Dictionary of Computing's style guide Never use the word "leverage" as a verb From Professor Sputnik's Lexicranky page ("thirty three terms which ought to be dragged out and slowly shot until they've had quite enough"). One of them is: Leverage (verb) "I am leveraging my can opener to access the baked beans." Thanks to all the "leveraged buyout" hoopla in the 80's, here's an easy way to sound like a high-powered Wall Street corpo [although he points out with relief that "to leverage" has not - yet - been included in Webster's Third New International Dictionary] From Wired Style (the promotional blurb, no less) These are fingernails-on-the-blackboard words, real shiver-up-the-spine stuff: "functionality," "implementation," "bleeding edge," "leverage," "next-generation," "monetize," "mission critical." You can almost see the language curling into a fetal position to await the deathblow. "Monetize," for crying out loud. Lake Superior State University Banished Words List, under Business Babble: LEVERAGE An over-used and often mis-used term in the business world. "I think it is a false verbification of the noun 'leverage,' says Phil Rustage, London, UK. "Leverage this...leverage that...It makes me want to puke. I don't really know the new definition of this word, but I've caught on (empirically) by hearing it a dozen million times from those suit-wearing marketing bozos." Todd Ryan, Knoxville, Tennessee. Todd performed an Internet search for 'leverage' and found more than 50,000 entries. He quit (and so did we) reading after the fifth entry, calling the lot of it 'gobbledygook.' We agree From World's Worst Words - "The Shit List" - "[thirty] overused and misused words favored by the illiterate," "leverage" is number 20. This list is published by the Princeton Spectator, a college newspaper. > leverage, v. > > Third Barnhart Dictionary of New English (e.q.=1957) > Macquarie Dictionary of New English > Oxford Dictionary of New Words > Bloomsbury, Neologisms New Words since 1960 > > I would guess that by now it's at least informal. > > Regards, > David K. Barnhart, Editor > The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] > barnhart at highlands.com > www.highlands.com/Lexik > > "Necessity obliges us to neologize." > Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Thu Sep 6 14:13:01 2001 From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Lynn Irons) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:13:01 -0400 Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples Message-ID: John Baugh has been doing matched guise work to investigate discrimination in housing in California. A story on the problem and his work aired on NPR this week. The question, which is part of a court case, involves the issue of whether there is something such as "sounding black" on the phone. -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) From enoonan at GLOBE.COM Thu Sep 6 14:22:00 2001 From: enoonan at GLOBE.COM (Erica Noonan) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:22:00 -0400 Subject: Speaking the language of The Lake Message-ID: Thanks to everyone who offered help for my story re: interesting language spoken in a suburb west of Boston. The link to the story, which ran today in the Boston Globe, is below... ____________________________________________________________ The following story appeared in The Globe Online: Headline: Speaking the language of The Lake Date: 9/6/2001 Byline: " It's a sunny morning in the heart of The Lake, and Anthony ''Fat'' Pellegrini is standing on Watertown Street, ready for business. He's armed with hand-written fund-raising lists and an old cigar box, and ready to remind pals and passersby - largely one and the same - of their civic responsibilities." ____________________________________________________________ To read the entire story, click on the link below or cut and paste it into a Web browser: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/249/west/Speaking_the_language_of_The_Lake+.shtml ____________________________________________________________ This message was sent by Erica Noonan [mailto:enoonan at globe.com] through Boston.com's email recommendation service. If you have questions or comments about this free service, please email us at feedback at boston.com. From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Thu Sep 6 14:26:38 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:26:38 -0400 Subject: Dyngus Day Message-ID: Barry inscribed: >>>>> DYNGUS DAY--See www.dyngusday.com. It's the day after Easter when women have wet T-shirts. Boy, did I tour Poland on the wrong day...This Polish term is not in the OED. Search also for "Smingus Dyngus." <<<<< A look at the www.dyngusday.com shows that all the current data is Polish-*American*. Look at the "Dyngus Day History" page, http://www.dyngusday.com/HTML/history.html; everything there about Polish observance of the day is in the past tense. There's no evidence that Dyngus Day in the 21st century is anything more than a reason for Polish-Americans and their friends to have fun. For what it's worth. -- Mark A. Mandel From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Thu Sep 6 14:34:50 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:34:50 -0400 Subject: "Leverage" as a verb Message-ID: Leif Knutsen writes: >>>>> Maybe I'm too much of a purist, but I was under the impression that using "leverage" as a verb is still something we're hoping won't make it into proper usage. Have I lost this battle, or are authoritative editors still holding out with me? <<<<< So what would you have people use instead? "Lever"? "Pry"? Unlikely; just try substituting either of those into dInIs's reply (below), and don't hurt yourself wincing: Please send a list of authoritative editors to me for review; I'll let you know in a later posting whether they really are. I'm the last word on this crap; I leveraged myself into the position. The metaphorical verb is formed from the pre-existing metaphorical noun and has just as good a "right" to differ from the literal verb as does the baseball verb "fly", meaning 'hit a fly ball', with past tense "flied", not "flew". Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Sep 6 15:01:12 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:01:12 -0400 Subject: gaffone/gavone Message-ID: A cartoon by Bill Gallo in the [NY] Daily News of August 15, 2001 criticizes the ineptitude shown by baseball players when they fight. ". . . since neither guy really knows how to fight, this winds up as an ugly wrestling match. *** Nobody likes this scene -- This silly nonsense of ballplayers makin' gaf-fones [sic] of themselves. But, guys, if you must fight, at least learn how to do it right." My wife has picked up the word that Gallo renders "gaf-fone" from her particular friend, a woman from Calabria. My wife hears it as "gavone". I have checked seveal Italian dictionaries, including the Cambridge Italian-English, the Grande Dizionario della Lingua Italiana, UTET's dictionary of Italian dialects and Rohlfs' dictionary of Calabrian, but have not found it under either gaffone or gavone. The word means "fool". Does the fact that Gallo uses the word without explanation mean that it has entered at least general New York English, or is he relying on the pretty clear context to define it? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Sep 6 15:16:38 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:16:38 +0100 Subject: gaffone/gavone Message-ID: A couple of cits: 1979 Torres _After Hours_ 67: These fuckin' gafones I got around me can't think 1979 Torres _After Hours_ 182: Aba-fangool! Did I say that? Don't talk like a cafone, awright? Jonathon Green From douglas at NB.NET Thu Sep 6 15:20:22 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:20:22 -0400 Subject: gaffone/gavone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think this may be a variant of "cafone". -- Doug Wilson From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Sep 6 15:35:55 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:35:55 -0400 Subject: gaffone/gavone In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010906111822.00b11130@nb.net> Message-ID: Without a doubt. In southern Italian dialects in general, Sicilian in particular, many voiceless items from other araes turn up voiced. dInIs >I think this may be a variant of "cafone". > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Sep 6 15:18:53 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:18:53 -0400 Subject: "being have" Message-ID: A year or so ago someone set off a discussion here by posting an overheard conversation in which a mommy offered to whap the bejesus out of her kid if he didn't start "being have" ("behaving himself", the word "behave" being analyzed as if it were the verb "be" and an adjective "have"). I've had no success in finding this discussion in the Archives. I recently heard a record made in the mid 1920s by the vocalist Hociel Thomas, called either "Go On, I Told You" or "What I Told You". The song celebrates the esprit of a cake-walking baby and contains the following couplet: She came in on the Charleston wave, What I told you, she just won't have. This is probably available on CD, since Thomas is backed by Louis Armstrong. I have an Armstrong discography somewhere, which, if I could find it, would give the correct title and the date of recording. But in any event, the thought that the command "behave!" = "be have!" is at least 70 years old. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 6 15:46:38 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:46:38 -0400 Subject: St Louis dialect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For examples of what more downhome St. Louis dialect may be like, note that baseball figures Joe Garagiola (also was a sportscaster, game-show host, voiceover guy, and appeared for a short while way back on the Today Show as a fill-in host) and Yogi Berra were from St. Louis. Olympian Jackie Joyner-Kersee was from East St. Louis, the largely black community across the river from St. Louis. I don't know if Don Lance has weighed in on this issue, but he could undoubtedly come up with more exemplars. Frank Abate From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Thu Sep 6 15:51:40 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:51:40 +0100 Subject: enantiosemy Message-ID: Not a dialect question, but a word history question. Hope you don't mind! I'm looking for earlier use of the word 'enantiosemy', which is a fancy way of referring to "words that are their own opposites" (or the state of being a word with incompatible meanings) (aka Janus words, auto-antonyms, contronyms, antagonyms...). The word is not in the OED, but I suspect that some lexicographers out there somewhere might have collected info on it even if it doesn't merit inclusion in the dictionary. The earliest reference I have is 1981, but that's clearly not where it originated. Please don't refer me back to the long Linguist List discussion of the topic--the answer is not there! Best wishes, Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Thu Sep 6 16:37:32 2001 From: pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Peter Farruggio) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:37:32 -0700 Subject: gaffone/gavone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Italian word is cafone, but is pronounced ga - VOON in most southern dialects. I don't have a dictionary, but the meaning among most users is much stronger than "fool" Urban folks use it in much the same way that "redneck" or "hillbilly" is used in the US. Kids are told such things as "They are people who don't bathe, who throw their garbage in the street, who don't go to the bathroom properly, " etc Pete Farruggio At 08:01 AM 9/6/01, you wrote: >A cartoon by Bill Gallo in the [NY] Daily News of August 15, 2001 >criticizes the ineptitude shown by baseball players when they >fight. ". . . since neither guy really knows how to fight, this winds >up as an ugly wrestling match. *** Nobody likes this scene -- This >silly nonsense of ballplayers makin' gaf-fones [sic] of themselves. >But, guys, if you must fight, at least learn how to do it right." > >My wife has picked up the word that Gallo renders "gaf-fone" from her >particular friend, a woman from Calabria. My wife hears it >as "gavone". I have checked seveal Italian dictionaries, including the >Cambridge Italian-English, the Grande Dizionario della Lingua Italiana, >UTET's dictionary of Italian dialects and Rohlfs' dictionary of >Calabrian, but have not found it under either gaffone or gavone. > >The word means "fool". > >Does the fact that Gallo uses the word without explanation mean that it >has entered at least general New York English, or is he relying on the >pretty clear context to define it? > >GAT > >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African >Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Sep 6 16:46:29 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:46:29 EDT Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples Message-ID: In a message dated 9/6/01 10:14:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU writes: > The question, which is part of a court > case, involves the issue of whether there is something such as "sounding > black" on the phone. I must be missing something here. I thought it was common knowledge that there exists a dialect (multiple dialects?) of AAVE that differs phonetically from General American, Eastern, and Southern as well as in grammar and vocabulary. Such dialect(s) is as easily recognizable over a telephone as it is in person. Jim Landau From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Sep 6 17:04:23 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:04:23 -0400 Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples In-Reply-To: <14d.871a37.28c90265@aol.com> Message-ID: What's missing is the differnce between "sounding" and "being." I would be happy to attest to the African-Americaness of even a short taped sample, but I would not guarantee the African-Americaness of the speaker. This, however (even in legal commentary given in the program), seems to miss the point. Were callers prejudiced against on the basis of the hearer's ineterpretation of their race (based, obviously, on linguistic cues alone). dInIs >In a message dated 9/6/01 10:14:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU writes: > >> The question, which is part of a court >> case, involves the issue of whether there is something such as "sounding >> black" on the phone. > >I must be missing something here. I thought it was common knowledge that >there exists a dialect (multiple dialects?) of AAVE that differs phonetically >from General American, Eastern, and Southern as well as in grammar and >vocabulary. Such dialect(s) is as easily recognizable over a telephone as it >is in person. > > Jim Landau -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Thu Sep 6 17:16:55 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:16:55 +0100 Subject: "being have" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Thursday, September 6, 2001 11:18 am -0400 George Thompson wrote: > A year or so ago someone set off a discussion here by posting an > overheard conversation in which a mommy offered to whap the bejesus out > of her kid if he didn't start "being have" ("behaving himself", the > word "behave" being analyzed as if it were the verb "be" and an > adjective "have"). I've had no success in finding this discussion in > the Archives. That was me--the mother said the kid wouldn't get any treats at grandma's if the kid didn't start 'being have'. (Perhaps someone else told a 'whapping the bejesus' story, though.) > I recently heard a record made in the mid 1920s by the vocalist Hociel > Thomas, called either "Go On, I Told You" or "What I Told You". The > song celebrates the esprit of a cake-walking baby and contains the > following couplet: > She came in on the Charleston wave, > What I told you, she just won't have. > This is probably available on CD, since Thomas is backed by Louis > Armstrong. I have an Armstrong discography somewhere, which, if I > could find it, would give the correct title and the date of recording. > But in any event, the thought that the command "behave!" = "be have!" > is at least 70 years old. But there's no 'be' there--so I don't think this is a case of 'to be have' at all. It's just a case of creative rhyming of the word 'have'. Just like when American singers say 'a-gain' to rhyme with 'rain' or 'been' to rhyme with 'seen'. Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From bergdahl at OHIO.EDU Thu Sep 6 17:13:51 2001 From: bergdahl at OHIO.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:13:51 -0400 Subject: gaffone/gavone In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010906111822.00b11130@nb.net> Message-ID: --On Thursday, September 6, 2001 11:20 AM -0400 "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > I think this may be a variant of "cafone". > > -- Doug Wilson ... with typical S. Italian [g] for [k] as in "rigat" for Riccota From bergdahl at OHIO.EDU Thu Sep 6 17:19:42 2001 From: bergdahl at OHIO.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:19:42 -0400 Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples In-Reply-To: <14d.871a37.28c90265@aol.com> Message-ID: ... and anecdotal evidence from the older generation of linguists, e.g. Raven I. McDavid, attested to the fact that white southerners were often "heard" in the the north as "black" on the telephone. --On Thursday, September 6, 2001 12:46 PM +0000 "James A. Landau" wrote: > In a message dated 9/6/01 10:14:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU writes: > >> The question, which is part of a court >> case, involves the issue of whether there is something such as "sounding >> black" on the phone. > > I must be missing something here. I thought it was common knowledge that > there exists a dialect (multiple dialects?) of AAVE that differs > phonetically from General American, Eastern, and Southern as well as in > grammar and vocabulary. Such dialect(s) is as easily recognizable over a > telephone as it is in person. > > Jim Landau From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Sep 6 18:30:34 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:30:34 -0700 Subject: "being have" Message-ID: From: Lynne Murphy >--the mother said the kid wouldn't get any treats at grandma's >if the kid didn't start 'being have'... this reinterpretation of "behave" has been reported often. it appears in a list of "analogical creations" by children in hockett's A Course in Modern Linguistics (1958), p. 425: "When told _You must behave_, a child may reply _I'm being haive_." (i believe the child in question was hockett's daughter.) over the years, i've heard about such reinterpretations made by maybe a dozen different children, from various parts of the english-speaking world, from both linguists and non-linguists. in some cases, the idiom BE HAIVE became part of a "family language", but i haven't seen reports of it spreading beyond small groups. surely, this is just something that's going to be invented again and again, independently. [from George Thompson :] >> I recently heard a record made in the mid 1920s by the vocalist >> Hociel Thomas, called either "Go On, I Told You" or "What I Told >> You". The song celebrates the esprit of a cake-walking baby and >> contains the following couplet: >> She came in on the Charleston wave, >> What I told you, she just won't have. >> This is probably available on CD, since Thomas is backed by Louis >> Armstrong. I have an Armstrong discography somewhere, which, if >> I could find it, would give the correct title and the date of >> recording. But in any event, the thought that the command >> "behave!" = "be have!" is at least 70 years old. [lynne murphy again:] >But there's no 'be' there--so I don't think this is a case of 'to be >have' at all. It's just a case of creative rhyming of the word >'have'. Just like when American singers say 'a-gain' to rhyme with >'rain' or 'been' to rhyme with 'seen'. this seems dubious. AGAIN rhyming with RAIN and BEEN rhyming with SEEN are well attested in varieties of english, so there's some basis for the rhyming conventions, even for speakers who don't have these pronunciations. but HAVE rhyming with WAVE has no such basis, so far as i know; it would be purely an eye rhyme. on the other hand, "won't ha(i)ve" as an extension of "be ha(i)ve" would take quite a story. how would the "ha(i)ve" of "be ha(i)ve" get reinterpreted as a *verb*, which is what's needed for "won't ha(i)ve"? an alternative is that the song should be transcribed as What I told you, she just won't 'have. (with a foreshortened occurrence of "behave"; such clippings are very common - "'cause" for "because", "'fore" for "before", etc., though i haven't checked for other instances of "'ha(i)ve" - and the meaning of "behave" would fit the song vastly better than the meaning of "have"). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Sep 6 19:11:20 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 15:11:20 -0400 Subject: That's gay, but it's not homsexual Message-ID: An ongoing disupte in the world of boxing, in which Hasim Rahman said it was "gay" for Lennox Lewis to sue him. http://houseofboxing.com/Hauser/hauser_09-04-01.asp -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 6 20:00:04 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:00:04 EDT Subject: Polish horses & more Message-ID: Greetings again from Bialystok, where the best I could find is a "bagiel"...If the U.S. stock marlet goes down any more, the only "bread" I'll have will be "Bialystock." From that first viewing and listening of Chopin at Lazienki Park in Warsaw, my tour guide said that the barred "L" is "W" in English pronunciation. The online slang guides I cited that list "pedal" also include that pronunciation note. Again, it doesn't excuse the "pedal" bicycle etymology, however. POLISH HORSES--Seen today at Bialowieza National Park (barred L again). Also known as Tarpan horses (OED 1841) and forest horses. The OED entry doesn't mention Poland, and I can probably antedate the entry. EUROPEAN BISON--Also seen at the park, and almost extinct. I didn't find any other names, however. LAJKONIK HOBBY HORSE--OED has "hobby horse" from 1557, but this legend of Cracow appears to go back to the 13th century. TREASURER OF WIELICZA--Treasurer is "Skarbnik" in Polish, and it is the guardian ghost of mines and miners. OED should consider it (like a "dwarf" or "troll" entry). CRACOW CRIBS--"Cracovian Christmas Cribs" is on pages 120-121 of my LEGENDARY CRACOW book. This is an old tradition. Perhaps it should be considered (like a "Swiss cheese" or "Manhattan clam chowder" entry). WALKING STICK (LASKA)--A girl. SOUP--Gasoline. IN POLAND, ALL MUSHROOMS ARE EDIBLE. SOME ONLY ONCE--A gem from my tour guide. From Ittaob at AOL.COM Thu Sep 6 21:26:51 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 17:26:51 EDT Subject: gaffone/gavone Message-ID: This accords with my Webster's New World Italian-English Dictionary, which defines "cafone" as "peasant," with a pejorative extension of "boor." I believe the term, in its S. Italian pronunciation, is fairly well understood in NYC, at least among Daily News readers. Steve Boatti From magura at GIGA.PL Thu Sep 6 22:08:33 2001 From: magura at GIGA.PL (Michal Lisecki) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:08:33 +0200 Subject: Polish lg matters Message-ID: Well, it seems the right time for me to make some things stright :-) First of all, Dennis is right to note that the 'l' in 'pedal' is actually a barred-l and a "dark" one when it comes to pronunciation. However, 'glupy' should actually go 'glupi'. Should you like to check some Polish online you might like to visit any of these: ONLINE DICTIONARIES Small English-Polish Dictionary http://galaxy.uci.agh.edu.pl/~polak/slownik/ English-Polish Glossary of Legal, Economics and Business Terms http://conan.nova.org/EPG.htm Eglish-Polishg Dictionary of Information Technology http://venus.ci.uw.edu.pl/~milek/slow.htm Dictionary of Polish Spelling http://venus.ci.uw.edu.pl/~milek/ortograf.htm Dictionary of Polish Synonyms http://venus.ci.uw.edu.pl/~milek/synonim.htm English-Polish Dictionary http://akson.sgh.waw.pl/~anthon/slownik.html Alas, I am not able to check them from where I'm sending this post thus I'd like you to excuse me if some of the links are dead. Of you would like to learn more about Polish diacritic marks just let me know...:-) Coming back to 'kasownik' (eng. ticket puncher) which has been mentioned in some previous posts. It has nothing to do with 'kaszownik' of which I have never heard. Trying to trace back its etymology, however, one could discern its similarity to 'kasza' (eng. groats) and this was widely used back in the ages as a defensive weapon, poured over those attacking and trying to climb up the ramparts. So in this sense a 'kaszownik' would be either a device helping with pouring the groats or indeed a type of machicolation in the wall (like Barry noticed) used to smite the enemies. And just to conclude. I really liked your struggle with the word "zapiekanka" :-)) Didn't want to interfere... And for the time being, I am waiting for next Barry's posts. They're all so amusing. -- Michal Lisecki finger me 4 my pgp From mlisecki at POLBOX.COM Thu Sep 6 22:11:01 2001 From: mlisecki at POLBOX.COM (Michal Lisecki) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:11:01 +0200 Subject: No subject Message-ID: reviev ads-l -------------------- [POLBOX - REKLAMA] ------------------------ Sprawd? swoje bezpiecze?stwo w Sieci Zabezpiecz si? ! www.symantec.com/region/pl/product/nis2001.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Sep 6 22:33:23 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:33:23 -0400 Subject: Polish horses & more In-Reply-To: <70.facee4f.28c92fc5@aol.com> Message-ID: Barry, Finally your tour guide strikes gold (or at least silver) with his mushrooms. Authentic Polish. dInIs > Greetings again from Bialystok, where the best I could find is a >"bagiel"...If the U.S. stock marlet goes down any more, the only >"bread" I'll have will be "Bialystock." > From that first viewing and listening of Chopin at Lazienki Park >in Warsaw, my tour guide said that the barred "L" is "W" in English >pronunciation. The online slang guides I cited that list "pedal" >also include that pronunciation note. Again, it doesn't excuse the >"pedal" bicycle etymology, however. > >POLISH HORSES--Seen today at Bialowieza National Park (barred L >again). Also known as Tarpan horses (OED 1841) and forest horses. >The OED entry doesn't mention Poland, and I can probably antedate >the entry. > >EUROPEAN BISON--Also seen at the park, and almost extinct. I didn't >find any other names, however. > >LAJKONIK HOBBY HORSE--OED has "hobby horse" from 1557, but this >legend of Cracow appears to go back to the 13th century. > >TREASURER OF WIELICZA--Treasurer is "Skarbnik" in Polish, and it is >the guardian ghost of mines and miners. OED should consider it >(like a "dwarf" or "troll" entry). > >CRACOW CRIBS--"Cracovian Christmas Cribs" is on pages 120-121 of my >LEGENDARY CRACOW book. This is an old tradition. Perhaps it should >be considered (like a "Swiss cheese" or "Manhattan clam chowder" >entry). > >WALKING STICK (LASKA)--A girl. > >SOUP--Gasoline. > >IN POLAND, ALL MUSHROOMS ARE EDIBLE. SOME ONLY ONCE--A gem from my >tour guide. -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Sep 6 23:31:21 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:31:21 -0400 Subject: "being have" Message-ID: Lynne Murphy objects that in the passage "She came in on the Charleston wave, / What I told you, she just won't have" "there's no 'be' there--so I don't think this is a case of 'to be have' at all. " But "will" (won't) is the future tense of "be". So that in this instance the idea of "being have" is so assimilated that the verb has been adapted. I'll concede that this analysis/joke on of "behave" is sufficiently obvious that it may have been invented ndependently many times. I think I don't concede that "she just won't have" should be read as "she just won't 'have" ("behave" truncated of its first syllable). We may all say "I'll do it 'cause I want to" and such, but I don't think that eliding the initial syllable is universal among words in the "be" family. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From proclsia at MOZCOM.COM Fri Sep 7 18:59:01 2001 From: proclsia at MOZCOM.COM (gilbert) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:59:01 -0700 Subject: Editorial Assistant, Oxford English Dictionary In-Reply-To: <20010905173152.A26603@panix.com> Message-ID: what is the qualification of the candidate you're looking? The FREE booklet "Make $50,000 in the next 90 days" Will unlock the doors to success and money. mailto:bubwit at mozcom.com -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jesse Sheidlower Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 2:32 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: JOB: Editorial Assistant, Oxford English Dictionary The Oxford English Dictionary is hiring an editorial assistant. Details can be found at: http://www.oup-usa.org/jobs/display.cgi/169 If you know of anyone who would be a good candidate for this, I'd appreciate it if you could let them know of the possibility. Thanks, and sorry if you've gotten this message through more than one channel. Best, Jesse Sheidlower Oxford English Dictionary From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Sep 7 12:16:26 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:16:26 EDT Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples Message-ID: In a message dated 9/6/01 1:31:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bergdahl at OHIO.EDU writes: > ... and anecdotal evidence from the older generation of linguists, e.g. > Raven I. McDavid, attested to the fact that white southerners were often > "heard" in the the north as "black" on the telephone. This makes sense. Most African-to-be-American slaves were imported into the Southern US, and the distinct phonetics of the AAVE "accent" could have arisen from people speaking West African languages learning the "cornpone and magnolia" English of the US South. Hence AAVE would be closer to Southern than to General American. Is the above correct? (Hmmm. We now have another synonym for AAVE: "cornpone and cassava") I am hardly an expert on dialects, but having grown up in Kentucky I have no trouble distinguishing Southern from AAVE. (Also from such unusual dialects as Mountaineer. Then there is my brother-in-law, who is from Oldham County. Every once in a while we have to explain, "No, he's not drunk. That's the way they speak in Oldham County.") I guess many Northerners just are not as familiar with Southern English as they think they are. - Jim Landau (normally tin-eared, but not always) From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 7 12:35:37 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:35:37 -0400 Subject: Editorial Assistant, Oxford English Dictionary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We are looking candidate with the pretty good English qualification. dInIs (who couldn't resist in spite of his sounding much worse in at least half a dozen languages) >what is the qualification of the candidate you're looking? > >The FREE booklet "Make $50,000 in the next 90 days" >Will unlock the doors to success and money. >mailto:bubwit at mozcom.com > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Jesse Sheidlower >Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 2:32 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: JOB: Editorial Assistant, Oxford English Dictionary > > >The Oxford English Dictionary is hiring an editorial assistant. Details >can be found at: >http://www.oup-usa.org/jobs/display.cgi/169 > >If you know of anyone who would be a good candidate for this, I'd >appreciate it if you could let them know of the possibility. > >Thanks, and sorry if you've gotten this message through more than >one channel. > >Best, > >Jesse Sheidlower >Oxford English Dictionary -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 7 12:46:16 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:46:16 -0400 Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The difference between southern white and black speech is of long-standing linguistic interest. These recent messages overlook a couple of intereting line sof enquirey. 1) Why would African slaves have simply learned Southern white English? Why wouldn't they (in such large numbers) have contributed to the development of the variety? 2) What we know suggests that the present-day Southern variety of US English is not a long-standing one at all. That is, fairly recent changes have brought about what we think of today as Southern. 3) The ability to distinguish one ethnic group from another on the basis of speech may not always lie in the characteristics most often studied by dialactologists (although recent work by John Baugh in his work on "linguistic profiling" shows that distinctive features of pronunciatrion are indeed salient in such identification). Different voice settings (e.g., creaky voice), different intonation patternms (woefully understudied in US dialectology), and different "ways of speaking" (various poragmatic features) may be much more important than vowels and consonants. I leave lexicon, morphology, and syntax out of it, although all play important roles, but this discussion sees to have focused on phonology. dInIs PS: Would somebody send me some tapes of General American? It's the only US dialect I don't have in my collection. I'd love to be able to play it for students. >In a message dated 9/6/01 1:31:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bergdahl at OHIO.EDU >writes: > >> ... and anecdotal evidence from the older generation of linguists, e.g. >> Raven I. McDavid, attested to the fact that white southerners were often >> "heard" in the the north as "black" on the telephone. > >This makes sense. Most African-to-be-American slaves were imported into the >Southern US, and the distinct phonetics of the AAVE "accent" could have >arisen from people speaking West African languages learning the "cornpone and >magnolia" English of the US South. Hence AAVE would be closer to Southern >than to General American. > >Is the above correct? > >(Hmmm. We now have another synonym for AAVE: "cornpone and cassava") > >I am hardly an expert on dialects, but having grown up in Kentucky I have no >trouble distinguishing Southern from AAVE. (Also from such unusual dialects >as Mountaineer. Then there is my brother-in-law, who is from Oldham County. >Every once in a while we have to explain, "No, he's not drunk. That's the >way they speak in Oldham County.") > >I guess many Northerners just are not as familiar with Southern English as >they think they are. > > - Jim Landau (normally tin-eared, but not always) -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Fri Sep 7 13:07:02 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:07:02 +0100 Subject: "being have" In-Reply-To: <137b59134aa7.134aa7137b59@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: --On Thursday, September 6, 2001 7:31 pm -0400 George Thompson wrote: > Lynne Murphy objects that in the passage > "She came in on the Charleston wave, / What I told you, she just > won't have" > "there's no 'be' there--so I don't think this is a case of 'to be have' > at all. " > > But "will" (won't) is the future tense of "be". So that in this > instance the idea of "being have" is so assimilated that the verb has > been adapted. I don't see this at all. I parse 'being haive' as be + adj or adv, and one can't saw "I won't happy" or "I won't there"--you've gotta have the 'be'. > > I'll concede that this analysis/joke on of "behave" is sufficiently > obvious that it may have been invented ndependently many times. I > think I don't concede that "she just won't have" should be read as "she > just won't 'have" ("behave" truncated of its first syllable). Yeah, Arnold's probably right on this point. Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Sep 7 13:39:57 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:39:57 -0400 Subject: That's gay, but it's not homosexual; etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can report that the kids (my 15-year-old son and his crowd) use "gay" as a general term of disparagement, directed at anyone who does something they should not have done, and is viewed as weird, embarrassing, perhaps effeminate. I cannot say whether this is widespread, but it is clearly in use in slang in the Northeast. On another note, I was told (this is not from a street source) that "jack-off muscle" is slang for the muscle on the outside of the upper arm that runs angularly from the elbow to the triceps. I cannot vouch for this, but perhaps others can confirm/deny? Frank Abate From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Fri Sep 7 14:10:43 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:10:43 -0400 Subject: "being have" Message-ID: George Thompson sez: >>> Lynne Murphy objects that in the passage "She came in on the Charleston wave, / What I told you, she just won't have" "there's no 'be' there--so I don't think this is a case of 'to be have' at all. " But "will" (won't) is the future tense of "be". So that in this instance the idea of "being have" is so assimilated that the verb has been adapted. <<< Come again? *I will there at 4:30. *You'll delighted with it. *She'll coming round the mountain when she comes. *We'll together again. *We shall/will not moved. When, where, and for whom is "will"/"won't" the future tense of "be"? Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Sep 7 15:25:26 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:25:26 EDT Subject: That's gay, but it's not homosexual; etc. Message-ID: In a message dated 9/7/2001 9:41:34 AM, abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET writes: << I can report that the kids (my 15-year-old son and his crowd) use "gay" as a general term of disparagement, directed at anyone who does something they should not have done, and is viewed as weird, embarrassing, perhaps effeminate. I cannot say whether this is widespread, but it is clearly in use in slang in the Northeast. >> See RHHDAS; this meaning of GAY is widespread and has been around for years. As I have reported in this space earlier, it was the subject of a vignette in an episode of THE SIMPSONS several years ago: one of Bart's male friends, seeing Bart making romantic moves on a girl, says, "Ewwww--holding hands with a girl--that's so gay." From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Sep 7 15:53:35 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:53:35 -0400 Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples Message-ID: >dInIs writes: > Different voice settings (e.g., creaky voice), different intonation >patternms (woefully >understudied in US dialectology), and different "ways >of speaking" (various >poragmatic features) may be much more important >than vowels and consonants. > >I leave lexicon, morphology, and syntax out of it, although all play >important roles, >but this discussion sees to have focused on phonology. >~~~~~~~~~~ I used to assume that vocal timbre was largely physically determined, but have come to believe that the learned component may be at least as great & perhaps greater. (Part of my evidence for this is the high incidence of of a sort of chipmunky voice in the post-tv generation, that I attribute to a lot of exposure to animated cartoons & similar vocal models.) That being so (she said, glibly), I wonder to what extent it is considered to be a part of dialect by the scholars in this field. A. Murie Having sought in vain for a definition of the Obviously Recondite term "poragmatic," I'm beginning to suspect it is a typo....? From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 7 16:39:53 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:39:53 -0400 Subject: seeking AAVE/SAE matched guise speech samples In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John Laver and Peter Trudgill wrote some time ago on vocal types and and dialect, John Esling (U. Victoria. Canada) is currently engaged in such research, but it is little mentioned in "standard" dialect treatments. Pragmatic was the not so esoteric word. dInIs > >dInIs writes: >> Different voice settings (e.g., creaky voice), different intonation >>patternms (woefully >understudied in US dialectology), and different "ways >>of speaking" (various >poragmatic features) may be much more important >>than vowels and consonants. >> >>I leave lexicon, morphology, and syntax out of it, although all play >>important roles, >but this discussion sees to have focused on phonology. >>~~~~~~~~~~ >I used to assume that vocal timbre was largely physically determined, but >have come to believe that the learned component may be at least as great & >perhaps greater. (Part of my evidence for this is the high incidence of of >a sort of chipmunky voice in the post-tv generation, that I attribute to a >lot of exposure to animated cartoons & similar vocal models.) That being >so (she said, glibly), I wonder to what extent it is considered to be a >part of dialect by the scholars in this field. >A. Murie >Having sought in vain for a definition of the Obviously Recondite term >"poragmatic," I'm beginning to suspect it is a typo....? -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Sep 7 17:43:21 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:43:21 -0400 Subject: "being have" Message-ID: This debate is going beyond what I had anticipated. In the context of the song, "She just won't have" undoubtedly means "she just won't act in a decorous manner because she is too spirited, too full of the spirit of jazz". If we do not derive the statement "She just won't have" from the expression "be have" (= "act nice"), then from what idiom do we derive it? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lynne Murphy Date: Friday, September 7, 2001 9:07 am Subject: Re: "being have" > --On Thursday, September 6, 2001 7:31 pm -0400 George Thompson > wrote: > > > Lynne Murphy objects that in the passage > > "She came in on the Charleston wave, / What I told you, she just > > won't have" > > "there's no 'be' there--so I don't think this is a case of 'to > be have' > > at all. " > > > > But "will" (won't) is the future tense of "be". So that in this > > instance the idea of "being have" is so assimilated that the > verb has > > been adapted. > > I don't see this at all. I parse 'being haive' as be + adj or > adv, and one > can't saw "I won't happy" or "I won't there"--you've gotta have > the 'be'. > > > > > > I'll concede that this analysis/joke on of "behave" is sufficiently > > obvious that it may have been invented ndependently many times. I > > think I don't concede that "she just won't have" should be read > as "she > > just won't 'have" ("behave" truncated of its first syllable). > > Yeah, Arnold's probably right on this point. > > Lynne > > > > M Lynne Murphy > Lecturer in Linguistics > School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences > University of Sussex > Brighton BN1 9QH > UK > > phone +44-(0)1273-678844 > fax +44-(0)1273-671320 > From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 7 18:31:17 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:31:17 -0400 Subject: "being have" In-Reply-To: <3459f634c798.34c7983459f6@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: Why must this be derived from "be have" and not "behave" with initial (unstressed) syllable deletion (as in tater, coon, possum, mater, and lots of other such words)? I have certainly heard the "I am being have" children's story enough to believe it (and believe it is a process which language acquirers duplicate often), but it does not seem relevant here. dInIs >This debate is going beyond what I had anticipated. > >In the context of the song, "She just won't have" undoubtedly >means "she just won't act in a decorous manner because she is too >spirited, too full of the spirit of jazz". > >If we do not derive the statement "She just won't have" from the >expression "be have" (= "act nice"), then from what idiom do we derive >it? > >GAT > >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African >Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Lynne Murphy >Date: Friday, September 7, 2001 9:07 am >Subject: Re: "being have" > >> --On Thursday, September 6, 2001 7:31 pm -0400 George Thompson >> wrote: >> >> > Lynne Murphy objects that in the passage >> > "She came in on the Charleston wave, / What I told you, she just >> > won't have" >> > "there's no 'be' there--so I don't think this is a case of 'to >> be have' >> > at all. " >> > >> > But "will" (won't) is the future tense of "be". So that in this >> > instance the idea of "being have" is so assimilated that the >> verb has >> > been adapted. >> >> I don't see this at all. I parse 'being haive' as be + adj or >> adv, and one >> can't saw "I won't happy" or "I won't there"--you've gotta have >> the 'be'. >> >> >> > >> > I'll concede that this analysis/joke on of "behave" is sufficiently >> > obvious that it may have been invented ndependently many times. I >> > think I don't concede that "she just won't have" should be read >> as "she >> > just won't 'have" ("behave" truncated of its first syllable). >> >> Yeah, Arnold's probably right on this point. >> >> Lynne >> >> >> >> M Lynne Murphy >> Lecturer in Linguistics >> School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences >> University of Sussex >> Brighton BN1 9QH >> UK >> >> phone +44-(0)1273-678844 >> fax +44-(0)1273-671320 >> -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Sep 7 18:52:28 2001 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:52:28 -0500 Subject: St Louis dialect Message-ID: The act of pulling someone's shorts or pants down, a mainstay of junior high, gym class comedians, is called 'pantsing' in St Louis. Elsewhere in the state of MO and where I'm from in Nebraska this act is "depantsing". Is 'pantsing' used elsewhere in the country? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 7 19:46:20 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 15:46:20 EDT Subject: Kozakiewicz gesture Message-ID: Greetings from Warsaw (perhaps "Wausau" or "War-sore" to you). I go home tomorrow...Today was the Treblinka concentration camp and an ethnographic musuem. OK GESTURE--I was told this is used here. KOZAKIEWICZ GESTURE--An upturned fist, almost as if giving the finger. The other hand is placed on this muscle. Kozakiewicz was a Polish high jumper in the 1980 Moscow Olympics. The Russian high jumper was favored by the crowd; Kozakiewicz won and gave this gesture back to the crowd. OED? From douglas at NB.NET Fri Sep 7 22:14:19 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:14:19 -0400 Subject: St Louis dialect In-Reply-To: <3B99176D.EC399008@missouri.edu> Message-ID: >The act of pulling someone's shorts or pants down, a mainstay of junior high, >gym class comedians, is called 'pantsing' in St Louis. Elsewhere in the state >of MO and where I'm from in Nebraska this act is "depantsing". > >Is 'pantsing' used elsewhere in the country? Yes, I've heard it rarely in MI (and IL, I think). I don't recall ever hearing 'depants' although it seems natural and transparent. [Compare: "He wormed his dog." = "He dewormed his dog."; "She loused his hair." = "She deloused his hair."; "This meat has been boned." = "This meat has been deboned."; etc.] -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Fri Sep 7 22:29:43 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:29:43 -0400 Subject: "being have" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There should be a verb "have" (or "'have") /heiv/ (= "behave") to go with the noun "havior"/"'havior" (which of course = "behavior"). "Hamlet", Act I, Scene II: <<'Tis not alone my inky cloak, good mother, Nor customary suits of solemn black, Nor windy suspiration of forc'd breath, No, nor the fruitful river in the eye, Nor the dejected havior of the visage, Together with all forms, moods, shapes of grief, 'That can denote me truly. These indeed seem, For they are actions that a man might play; But I have that within which passeth show -- These but the trappings and the suits of woe.>> "Havior" appears in Webster's Third. I agree that this "have" is probably simply a contraction of "behave". -- Doug Wilson From magura at GIGA.PL Fri Sep 7 23:59:30 2001 From: magura at GIGA.PL (Michal Lisecki) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 01:59:30 +0200 Subject: Kozakiewicz gesture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On a memorable day of 01-09-07 at 15:46 you wrote an email "Kozakiewicz gesture" : >OK GESTURE--I was told this is used here. > Depending on the way you actually show it :-) But frankly...no prejudices. >KOZAKIEWICZ GESTURE--An upturned fist, almost as if giving the finger. The other hand is placed on this muscle. Kozakiewicz was a Polish high jumper in the 1980 Moscow Olympics. The Russian high jumper was favored by the crowd; Kozakiewicz won and gave this gesture back to the crowd. OED? And that's a one to remember, however nowadays rarely used. I am glad you mentioned it. At that time it was a very famous thing. The fact that some gesture could win its own name by only showing it once only justifies that but in order to fully understand its meaning one would have bear in mind the tension between Poland and Russia at that time. You seem to have an interesting insight into what's interesting in Poland/Polish. What books/guides are you taking it from specifically? *********** here it ends *********** -- Michal Lisecki finger me 4 my pgp From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Sat Sep 8 01:03:20 2001 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:03:20 -0600 Subject: "being have" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: DInIs is right, I think. That's the only thing that makes sense. All that's missing from the printed version is a preceding apostrophe: "She just won't 'have." Victoria On Friday, September 07, 2001 12:31 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > > Why must this be derived from "be have" and not "behave" with initial > (unstressed) syllable deletion (as in tater, coon, possum, mater, and > lots of other such words)? > Victoria Neufeldt 1533 Early Drive Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 3K1 Canada From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Sep 8 02:01:59 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 22:01:59 -0400 Subject: Middle English Dictionary Message-ID: http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-000071967sep06.story "The dictionary covers 15,000 pages and includes more than 55,000 entries. The numerous meanings and usages are illustrated with 900,000 quotations ranging from the time of William the Conqueror to the advent of printing. "They come from Chaucer, the stories of King Arthur and early Bibles, as well as contemporary letters, wills and remarkably detailed medical treatises." -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Sep 8 02:53:17 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 22:53:17 -0400 Subject: Kozakiewicz gesture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michal, Where is "this muscle"? DInIs > Greetings from Warsaw (perhaps "Wausau" or "War-sore" to you). I >go home tomorrow...Today was the Treblinka concentration camp and an >ethnographic musuem. > >OK GESTURE--I was told this is used here. > >KOZAKIEWICZ GESTURE--An upturned fist, almost as if giving the >finger. The other hand is placed on this muscle. Kozakiewicz was a >Polish high jumper in the 1980 Moscow Olympics. The Russian high >jumper was favored by the crowd; Kozakiewicz won and gave this >gesture back to the crowd. OED? -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 8 08:08:59 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 04:08:59 EDT Subject: Jesse Sheidlower's "On Language" in NYT Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower writes the New York Times "On Language" column this Sunday. K. GESTURE--The left (or other) hand is placed on the muscle of the right arm. "No Bols, no glory"--The theme of a "Bols Polska" conference/meeting at my hotel in Bialystok. POLISH DRINKS--I get my stuff from the tour guide, from tour books, from the web, from menus with English translations, and from tourist info in English. My tour guide explained about "technical alcohol" and "blackberry pie," but I haven't found a good web site that explains any Polish meaning for these. YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP: Another "Big Apple" definition, posted on 11 June 2001: I think it comes from Mae West, she was like the hottest movie star in theater and movies in the 1930s movies...she would say, "How about them apples?" in a real slow, sexy way. The story was, she was a really big star on Broadway and the name "stuck." I also read where they put up a sign near a theater where she had a big hit show on Broadway near Times Square and called it "Big Apple Corner" in her honor...I guess you could look it up? (And I'm returning to this city?--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 8 08:43:33 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 04:43:33 EDT Subject: Amigo Diplomacy (U.S.-Mexico) Message-ID: From the FINANCIAL TIMES, Friday, 7 September 2001, pg. 15, col. 1 headline: _The harsh realities of "amigo diplomacy"_ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Sep 8 18:39:20 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:39:20 EDT Subject: Kozakiewicz gesture Message-ID: In a message dated 09/07/2001 3:48:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > OK GESTURE--I was told this is used here. > > KOZAKIEWICZ GESTURE--An upturned fist, almost as if giving the finger. The > other hand is placed on this muscle. Kozakiewicz was a Polish high jumper in > the 1980 Moscow Olympics. The Russian high jumper was favored by the crowd; > Kozakiewicz won and gave this gesture back to the crowd. OED? I have no idea of the origin of this gesture, but it has been in use in the USA for many years, with the meaning "up your ass!". A photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald, taken shortly after his arrest, shows him making this gesture. - Jim Landau From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Sat Sep 8 21:18:55 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 17:18:55 -0400 Subject: muscles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On the farm, that was the muscle exercised by milking cows. . . . At 09:39 AM 9/7/01 -0400, Frank Abate wrote: >I >On another note, I was told (this is not from a street source) that >"jack-off muscle" is slang for the muscle on the outside of the upper arm >that runs angularly from the elbow to the triceps. I cannot vouch for this, >but perhaps others can confirm/deny? > >Frank Abate _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 9 14:20:50 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 10:20:50 EDT Subject: "Recessions uncover what auditors do not" Message-ID: Greetings from New York City. -------------------------------------------------------- BIG APPLE (continued, of course) From SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, September 2001, pg. 95, col. 1 (kindly clipped and in my mailbox): On a recent sunset cruise packed with passengers and their picnics, Horenstein explains his answer to the conversial question of how the Big Apple got its name: from a bordello owner named Eve and the "apples" who worked for her. New York City can't get it right, but Poland can! From INFORMATOR TURYSTYCZNY: NOWY JORK (2000) by Monika Witkowska (www.idea.pl), pg. 1: _Wielkie Jablko_ Nowy Jork zwany jest "Wielkim Jablkiem" ("Big Apple"). Historia tego symbolu siega lat 20. naszego stulecia. Jeden z dziennikarzy, specjalista od wyscigow konnych, bedac w Nowym Orleanie, przypadkowo uslyszal, jak dzokeje mowia o torze wyscigowym w Nowym Jorku: "big apple". Wykorzystal ten zwrot i nazwal redagowana przez siebie kolumne "Dookola Wielkiego Jablka". Od tej pory nazwa ta stala sie synonimem odbywajacych sie w Nowym Jorku gonitw. Dekade pozniej muzycy jazzowi zaczeli stosowac termin "big apple" w odniesieniu do Nowego Jorku jako miasta, a zwalszcza do Harlemu, ktory uwazali za swiatowa stolice jazzu. Mowiono: "Wiele jest jablek na drzewie sukcesu, ale jesli osiagniesz Nowy Jork, oznacza to, ze zdobyles Wielkie Jablko". Jednak tak naprawde dopiero kampania promocynjna miasta w 1971 spopoularyzowala nazwe i symbol z lat 20. i 30. Dzis dorodne, czerwone jablka znajdziemy na materialach promocyjnych, koszulkach, w gazetach--po prostu wszedzie. -------------------------------------------------------- "RECESSIONS UNCOVER WHAT AUDITORS DO NOT" Did Fred Shapiro work on the origins of this phrase? Unfortunately, you'll be hearing it a lot. From the FINANCIAL TIMES, September 8-9, 2001, pg. 6, col. 5: The global slowdown is also allowing investors to rediscover the truth of the old saying that "recessions uncover what auditors do not." Acquisitions made at the height of the late-1990s expansion are now being revealed as worthless. Write-offs are more common than in a demolition derby. -------------------------------------------------------- BABY WEATHER (continued from "old man weather") From Femi Oke, my favorite CNN International weathergirl, on a recent broadcast: That's classic baby weather--wet and windy. -------------------------------------------------------- KUDOS-CAST Not in the RHHDAS or the CDS. From the same FINANCIAL TIMES, September 8-9, 2001, pg. 3, col. 5: AFI's modest resources stand to be boosted by the undisclosed terms of its deal with CBS, while its more experienced rivals in the so-called "kudos-cast" business will be left to wonder how much of their thunder will be stolen by the intruder. -------------------------------------------------------- SURF-AND-TURF, HALF-AND-HALF (both continued) From the American Express Platinum card offers in my mail, The 75th anniversary of the Palm Restaurant (1926-2001): CELEBRATE OUR 75th ANNIVERSARY WITH A MEAL OF HISTORIC PROPORTIONS The Palm's Surf and Turf Now just $95 for two We're inviting Platinum Card members to join us in celebrating our 75th anniversary by enjoying our original Surf and Turf for two for just $95 (regularly $125). And what a feast it is: Caesar Salad. An 18 oz. New York Strip Steak. Jumbo 3 lb. Nova Scotia Lobster. Vegetable of the day. SIgnature Half-and-Half (cottage fries and fried onions). Our famous New York Cheesecake (straight from the Bronx). Coffee or Tea. All in the classic Palm ambience that made our original Surf and Turf famous. (Does its "Surf and Turf" beat my 1960s citations?...New York Cheesecake is known at Lindy's in Manhattan and Junior's in Brooklyn. Not from the Bronx...I also did "Caesar Salad" and "New York Strip Steak," but that never even got me a cup of coffee--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 9 17:34:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 13:34:45 EDT Subject: First Internet Dictionary? Message-ID: FINANCIAL TIMES To the Editor: Oxford University Press is publishing _an_ internet dictionary. It is not _the first_ internet dictionary. Not by any means! See: "E-nough: Jonathan Margolis is stunned by the first dictionary of the internet," _Financial Times How to Spend It_, September 8-9, 2001, pg. 67, col. 3. It contains the statement: "This arguably oblique thought occurs as I thumb through the first internet dictionary, just published by Oxford University Press." Two disclaimers: I have not read the book, which comes out around October 1st in U. S. bookstores. Also, I'm an unpaid consultant to the Oxford English Dictionary, which is published by Oxford University Press. The granddad of all "internet dictionaries" is considered to be Eric S. Raymond's _The Hacker's Dictionary_, now _The New Hacker's Dictionary_ and online as the Jargon File. Jargon File contains the words "Gozillagram" and "angry fruit salad" that the article mentions. There are many other wonderful Internet dictionary-type sites on, well, the internet. Among them are Gareth Branywyn's JargonWatch for _Wired_ magazine, Paul McFedries' Word Spy and Tech Word Spy, Netlingo.com, the Ultimate Silicon Valley Slang Page, Buzzsaw, and Buzzwhack. A quick check of an online bookseller shows at least these titles: Dictionary of Computers and Internet Terms, 7th edition, by Michael A. Covington, et al. Random House Webster's Compueter and Internet Dictionary, 3rd edition. Webster's New World Dictionary of Computer Terms, 8th edition, by Bryan Pfaffenberger. Dictionary of Computer and Internet Words: An A to Z Guide to Hardware, Software and Cyberspace, by American Heritage Dictionaries. Computer and Internet Dictionary for Ages 9 to 99, by Charles W. Berry, et al. The Online/E-mail Dictionary, by Hayden Mead. Beginner's Illustrated Internet Dictionary, by Betty Shulman. Quick Reference Guide Computer and Internet Dictionary, by Lisa A. Bucki. Official Internet Dictionary: A Comprehensive Reference for Professionals, by Russ Bahorsky. Cyberspeak: An Oline Dictionary, by Andy Ihnatko. PC's for Dummies: Illustrated Computer Dictionary for Dummies, by Dan Gookin. Dictionary of the World Wide Web, by Cynthia B. Leshin. Dictionary of Personal Computing and the Internet, by Simon Collin. Newton's Telecom Dictionary: The Official Dictionary of Telecommunication Networking and Internet, by Harry Newton. The Hutchinston Dictionary of COmputing Multimedia and the Internet. Dictionary of Computer and Internet Terms, by Douglas Downing, et al. There are also books in other languages that are "internet dictionaries." If you exclude every single one of these books and online web sites, then Oxford's is the first internet dictionary, as the article says. Barry Popik 225 East 57th Street, Apt. 7P New York, NY 10022 (212) 308-2635 Bapopik at aol.com From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Mon Sep 10 00:43:38 2001 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 17:43:38 -0700 Subject: Kozakiewicz gesture In-Reply-To: <11.1a4f6bfd.28cbbfd8@aol.com> Message-ID: --- "James A. Landau" wrote: > In a message dated 09/07/2001 3:48:16 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > > > OK GESTURE--I was told this is used here. > > > > KOZAKIEWICZ GESTURE--An upturned fist, almost as > if giving the finger. > The > > other hand is placed on this muscle. Kozakiewicz > was a Polish high jumper > in > > the 1980 Moscow Olympics. The Russian high jumper > was favored by the > crowd; > > Kozakiewicz won and gave this gesture back to the > crowd. OED? > > I have no idea of the origin of this gesture, but it > has been in use in the > USA for many years, with the meaning "up your ass!". > > A photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald, taken shortly > after his arrest, shows him > making this gesture. > > - Jim Landau >From the description, sounds like the same thing as the "bra d'honneur". ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 10 01:28:52 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 21:28:52 EDT Subject: Kozakiewicz gesture (SI, 8-11-1980) Message-ID: From SPORTS ILLUSTRATED, 11 August 1980 (pole vault at the Moscow Olympics): Pg. 19 photo caption: Kazakiewicz responded in kind to the spectators. Pg. 21, col. 2: But the unflappable (Wladyslaw--ed.) Kozakiewicz, up (Pg. 22, col. 1--ed.) first, made this height, too, through a blizzard of jeers, and as he bounded from the pit he presented the non-Polish majority of the crowd with a forceful gesture of deep personal insult. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 10 03:02:39 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 23:02:39 EDT Subject: "I ga-ron-tee!" (Justin Wilson); K vs. LJ gestures Message-ID: K VS. LJ GESTURES I reported (see ADS-L archives) on Larry Johnson's gesture in the New York Knicks playoff victory over the Toronto Raptors, 5-1-2000. It's at: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2000/playoffs/news/2000/04/30/knicks_raptors_ap/ -------------------------------------------------------- "I GA-RON-TEE!" From the international edition of USA TODAY, 7 September 2001, pg. 9B, col. 1: _TV's Cajun chef, Justin Wilson, dies_ Justin Wilson, the Cajun humorist and chef whose distinctive accent delighted viewers of his _Cookin' Cajun_ television show, has died. He was 87. A daughter, Sarah Sue Easterly, said Wilson died Wednesday in Baton Rouge. Wilson released five cookbooks, 27 albums of short stories and an album of Christmas songs during his career. He was host of several cooking programs, including _Louisiana Cookin'_. He referred to himself as JOOS-tain and became known for the expression: "I ga-ron-tee!" (guarantee), from the Cajun "J'vous garantis." "Cajun cooking is the ability to take what you have and create a good dish and season it right," Wilson told the Associated Press in 1990. "It's creative cooking--that's all it is." A native of Amite, La., Wilson's last syndicated series of shows was _Easy Cooking_. (Cajun cooking has gone from "I ga-ron-tee!" to "BAM!"--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Sep 10 01:29:34 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:29:34 +0800 Subject: "I ga-ron-tee!" (Justin Wilson); K vs. LJ gestures In-Reply-To: <24.1904a80b.28cd8750@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:02 PM -0400 9/9/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >K VS. LJ GESTURES > > I reported (see ADS-L archives) on Larry Johnson's gesture in the >New York Knicks playoff victory over the Toronto Raptors, 5-1-2000. > It's at: > >http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2000/playoffs/news/2000/04/30/knicks_raptors_ap/ > But that one was supposedly the modestly submitted capital-L-for-Larry, so at least on the face of it, it was PG-13 rather than R rated. L From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 10 16:16:26 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:16:26 EDT Subject: Fwd: PC query Message-ID: FYI: A follow-up on the "personal computer" story in the New York Times a few Sundays ago. I walked a copy of the 1959 Datamation ad over to the New York Times building, but the editor in charge also took a vacation! --Barry Popik -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Rick Gladstone Subject: Re: PC query Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:19:49 -0400 Size: 1771 URL: From transedit.h at TELIA.COM Mon Sep 10 17:30:00 2001 From: transedit.h at TELIA.COM (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:30:00 +0200 Subject: Kozakiewics gesture Message-ID: Jim Landau wrote: >>From the description, sounds like the same thing as the "bra d'honneur". Yes, very much so: "Bras d'honneur: Geste injurieux (simulacre d'erection)" says Nouveau Petit Robert, Dictionnaire de la langue francaise. It is described by Genevi?ve Calbris and Jacques Montredon in Des gestes et des mots pour le dire, DIC Mini-dictionnaires, Cl? International, 1986: "...made by placing one hand at the crook of the opposite arm and lifting - or extending - the latter, fist balled, to figure the male member in erection." Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Sep 10 17:53:55 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:53:55 -0700 Subject: Kozakiewics gesture In-Reply-To: <00c301c13a1e$3d8f0ea0$d1c9143e@oemcomputer> Message-ID: Aw, shucks! I really liked "bra d'honneur"! Hey--maybe if I can get it copyrighted quick enough, I could sell it to Playtex or somebody. I promise to donate all proceeds to ADS. :) Peter Mc. --On Monday, September 10, 2001 7:30 PM +0200 Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote: > the "bra d'honneur". > > Yes, very much so: > "Bras d'honneur: **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 11 08:08:12 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 04:08:12 EDT Subject: Super-Star (1964); You & Your Passport Photo Message-ID: SUPER-STAR As I posted before, the OED has 1926 and then 1969. Andy Warhol claims to have coined it, but I traced that to 1966. From CLYDE (A PLAYBOY/ESQUIRE-type publication in the 1960s), April 1964, pg. 36: _HOCKEY'S_ _NEWEST_ _SUPER-STAR_ by Stan Fischler (Bobby Hull...See also my work on "supermodel" in the old archives--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- WHEN YOU LOOK LIKE YOUR PASSPORT PHOTO, IT'S TIME TO COME HOME The title of a book by the late Erma Bombeck. However, the conception that you don't look like your horrible passport photo is not new. From a cartoon in PIC, December 1948, pg. 107, col. 1: (Husband and wife are in chairs on the deck of a ship. The husband looks terrible, and the wife says...--ed.) "You're beginning to look like your passport photo." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 11 09:01:04 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 05:01:04 EDT Subject: Kosher Americans (1929) (Yiddish word appendix) Message-ID: KOSHER AMERICANS by Joseph D. Rosenberg Associated Publishers COmpany, Atlantic City, NJ 1929 OED uses this book only once...for "tsores." It beats OED's 1953 Saul Bellow cite on "Mensch," for example. The author is from Cleveland. From the APPENDIX on pages 321-327: Pg. 321: APPENDIX Number indicates page where word or phrase is set forth in this narrative. YIDDISH TRANSLATION De golden-e' land...The golden land...1 De frie' land...The land of the free...2 Gott bench Ir...God bless her...2 Olov Hasholom...Peace to them...2 Yesh-iv-a, Bocher...College student...2 garber...tanner...2 Yitschockel Miner...My Isaac...2 Krain-a-le'...my Crown...3 Gott zu dank-en...Thank God...3 Und-ge-bencht mir tzvai-ti-er-e' kinder, zollen zai zein gazunt...and blessed with two dear, dear children, may they keep in good health...3 ebber...but...3 blass...pale...3 its-ter...now...3 nai-es...news...3 Forward...Jewish newspaper...3 Bintel Brief...Package of Letters...3 obber...but...4 schmaltz...fat...4 strudel...pastry...4 Oi, vai-is-mir...Woe is me...5 Oi, schlecht...terrible...5 Mine Schlemazel...my ill luck...5 schlecht is mere...I feel terrible...6 Yitschock...Isaac...6 zol, ich, krank-en...May I suffer...7 schlecht...terrible...8 Cho-chem...smart Alec...12 Shamos...sexton...13 Minion...congregation...13 Gott und zein mishpot is gerecht...God in His judgment is righteous...13 Kaddish...Mourner's prayer...14 Gott vet unz beiden helfen...God will help us both...14 Cha-der...Hebrew school...14 Talmud...Commentaries of the Scriptures...14 Narr...Legal term for a declaration...14 odder...or...18 Kosher...adjective, pure...20 Hechscher...stamp of approval...20 (Pg. 322--ed.) Rov...Rabbi...20 obber...but...20 tarfis...misnomer for unclean food...20 chai-odom...the Book on Life of Man...20 miner...mine...20 Mach-rain...make clean...20 cigaren...intended for cigars...21 lechaem...drink...21 terretz...excuse...21 oderin...veins...21 Ref-u-a Schelaimo...complete cure...21 Obersten's hilf..by the help of the Almighty...21 mai-del...girl...22 essen...food...22 unzer...our...22 bil-igs-te...cheapest...22 ve-den...how then...26 bala-boss...proprietor...27 balla-bosta...proprietress...27 A-zoi...so...27 Goot Shab-es...Good Sabbath...27 Kiddish..Friday evening prayer before meal...27 gefilte...stuffed...28 azoi, ge-schmack...so tasty...28 Gon-a-den...Heaven...28 Shabes...Sabbath...31 Duvid der Chazen...David the Cantor...31 Eli, Eli...My God my God...31 Aden-oi-E-Chod...The Eternal is One...31 shvesterel...little sister...32 krenk...sickness...32 vai-ber-se...female...32 falsha pen-emer...false faces...33 guten...good...33 udder...or...34 "Velvela's Kalle"..."Willie's Bride"...34 in-em-es-en leben...in true life...34 Gon-oven...thieves...35 zolen, zai, ess, ois, krank-en...may they spend it for illness...35 Gott sei dank-en...thanks to God...35 tier-e'...excellent...35 noor...but...35 A-za-yohr-aff-mere...may I have such good year...36 emes...true...36 Shabes...Sabbath...36 und, af-il-e'...even so...36 mash-gi-ach...overseer...36 zalts van-es...salt baths...36 nur...but...36 Chas-ve-shu-lom...God forbid...36 Goisha er-ter...Gentile places...36 zolaich baden zein tzu ge-zunt...may it prove healthful to you both...36 (Pg. 323--ed.) ge-sunt tzu-dir...good health to you...37 efsher...maybe...37 Voobrendt..where is the fire..37 goi-im...Gentiles...39 Azoi...So...39 Yes-i-bath, Ha-bat-loo-im...Seats of idlers...39 Go-ish...Gentiles...40 Smad-halz...glutton...40 Ap-e-ka-rus...doubter...40 unzer...our...40 Ap-e-kor-sim...doubters...41 ef-sher...maybe...41 Lernen...learning...41 Mish-oo-med...apostates...41 tsu-far dra-en a men-chens kop...to turn a person's head...41 tuma...unclean...42 Taruf, Torof, Yosoph...referring to Joseph having been torn apart by wild animals...42 a-nai-es-...something new...42 Chad-er, ingel...schoolboy...42 mil-chi-ke-plate...dish used for dairy products...42 Schi-te'...slaughter...43 Tal-mida-cha-cho-mim...the wise men...43 Kosher...clean...43 Trafes...unclean...43 Ru-shi-se schvitz-bud...the Russian sweat bath...45 schmice...whip...45 kish-kes...intestines...46 obber...but...46 Shat-chen...matrimonial agent...48 Mikvah...pool...49 (OED?--ed.) zei-gezunt...keep well...50 Yeshibath Habatlonim...Seat of Idlers...58 Shipa...intended for "Sheba"...58 Lang leben zalst du...may you live long...58 Shat-chen...matrimonial agent...60 Magna Cum Laude (Latin)...great with praise...61 Shat-chen...matrimonial agent...61 frume...religious...63 bench licht...usher in the Queen Sabbath by lighting and blessing the candles...63 gefilte fish...stuffed fish...63 Chos-en...intended...70 raid...speak...71 shid-ech...match...71 shat-chen...matchmaker...71 itz-ter...now...73 Chas-ve-sho-lom...God forbid...73 Clab-er-ais...intended for cabarets...73 ge-vald...alarm...73 Alech-em, Sho-lom...Peace to you...74 bench mit a mez-oo-men...grace after meat...74 (TO BE CONTINUED. Typist taking break, and the computer shuts off when he opens the refrigerator door--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 11 10:20:37 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 06:20:37 EDT Subject: Kosher Americans (continued) Message-ID: KOSHER AMERICANS by Joseph Rosenberg Associated Publishers Company, Atlantic City, NJ 1929 APPENDIX (continued) Pg. 324: Schule...synagogue...75 Min-che and Mai-tiv...Twilight and night services...75 Beth, Ha-mid-rosh...House of learning...75 Blatt...referred to Gemora (a page)...76 Good Shabos...Good Sabbath...76 obber...but...76 Yeshibath Habatlonim...Seat of idlers...76 Yom Kippur...Day of Atonement...77 Aver-is She'-bain Odom La-mo-kom, Yom Ha-kip-pur-im Ma-cha-per...sins committed by man towards God the Day of Atonement will obliterate..77 Veris She-bain Odom Lach-vare, Ain Yom Ha-kip-pur-im Ma-cha-per...wrongs between man and man, the Day of Atonement will not wipe out...77 Af-e-lu, Yom, Ha-miso, Ain, Ma-cha-per, Ad, Shai-ratze, Es, Chav-aro...even the day of death will not wipe out your acts until you right your wrongs with your fellowman...77 Tal-mud, Ch-chem...Learned man...77 Yesh-i-ve, Bocher...college student...78 Beth, Ha-midrosh...House of learning...79 Ka-pot-ta...coat...79 Ap-a-kor-us...doubter...80 Am-ho-or-ets...ignoramus...80 Poi'-er...dummy...80 Eo-i-cure (Epicurus)...Famous Greek Philosopher, also one devoted to luxurious sensual enjoyments, especially of the table...80 geler-en-ter mench...learned man...80 emmes-er' Yid...true Jew...80 Poi-nick-bar, Ats-mos, Ish, Ben Cha-fer...here lies the remains of a peasant...80 Cha-marim...blockheads...80 Apakor-us...doubter...81 Talmud, Cho-chem...learned or wise man...81 Ober-sten... the most High...83 baze...angry...83 Schule...synagogue...84 Kol-yis-ro-el, Cha-va-rim...all Israel are brethren...85 obber...but...87 lun-ets...intended for lunch...88 Gott-tsu-dank, leb-e-dick...Thank God--alive...88 efsher...maybe...88 obber...but...89 es-sen...food...91 nai-em...new...92 Torah...the Scroll...97 obber...but...97 mazumen...money...100 unzer...our...101 (Pg. 325--ed.) Ge-ler-en-ter-mench...learned man...101 Ches-e-da, Emos, Yesh, woo-tum, Lo-hem, Ba-olom, Habo...the pious of the Gentiles are also entitled to a portion in the coming world...101 Yesibath, Ha-bat-lon-im...seat of idlers...103 nach-us...pleasure...106 efsher...perhaps or maybe...106 Ti-er-er, keend...dear child...116 der blinder shnorer...the blind beggar...117 shi-dech...match...117 Drit-chai-lik...a third portion...117 efsher...perhaps...118 Talmida-cha-cho-mim...learned or wise men...118 Yesh-i-va...college...118 Yesibath Habatlonim...seat of idlers...118 Yitschock...Isaac...118 unzer...our...119 unz...us...119 mooches...in underworld vernacular suckers...122 (RHHDAS could have used this Yiddish citation for "mooch"--ed.) Kosher...pure...122 Mit Mazel...with luck...127 Tnoim...engagement...135 Mit-mazel und broche, af-ei-er, ganzen, leben...with luck and blessings throughout your life...136 Mit feel glick...with much luck...136 Em-is-e', Mach-a-tun-im...true relatives...136 blinder shnorer...blind beggar...143 Ke-su-ba...marriage contract...143 Chaz-en...Cantor...143 Chu-pe...a canopy...144 Mogen Du-vid...the Seal of David...144 Bo-ruch Ha-bo...blessed who cometh...145 El, Mo-lai, Rach-mim...God aboundeth with mercy...145 Hara, At, Me-ka-desh-es, Lee, Bat-a-baas, Zu, Kad-as, Mo-she-ve, Yis-ro-el...thou art consecrated to me, with this ring according to the rites of Moses and Israel...146 Mazel-tov...Good luck...146 At-hu, Va-char-to-mu, Me-kol, H-a-mim...we are God's chosen people...147 Schmai, Yis-ro-el, Ado-noi, Elo-ha-nu, Ado-noi, E'-chod...Hear, O Israel, the Eternal is God, the Eternal is One...147 Chos-en, Kal-le, Masel, Tov...Good Luck to the bride and groom...147 Mit mazel zollen alle leben...may we all live in luck...148 vibe...intended for wife...149 leb-e-dick...lively...149 kaz-ats-ke...Russian dance...149 kalle...bride...150 schwartz-er...colored man...150 Zal, zein, mit-mazel...should be with luck...150 nad-den...dowry...151 udder...or...160 unzer...our...160 (Pg. 326--ed.) um-zis-te, Tso-res...unfound troubles...161 efsher...probably, perhaps or maybe...161 Schilmazel...ill luck...164 Gott zu dank-en...thanks to God...165 tso-res...troubles...165 um glick...bad luck...165 Ich-alien-bin shuldick...I alone am to blame...170 Shma, Yis, Ro, El...Hear, O Israel...170 ganoff...thief...179 und gait er in der-erd mit de gelt...let him go to Hell with the money...179 Schuldick...to blame...179 obber...but...227 gesignate...intended for signed...228 loomp...scoundrel...229 Ma-chu-ten...relative...251 The Pa-rek, Ov-es...dicta of the Fathers...251 Al, Ter-ats-e', Es, Chav-a-ro, Beshas, Ka-a-sho...do not appease thy neighbor in the first moment of his anger...251 Beth, Ha-mid-rosh...house of learning...251 ubber...but...256 Cho-to-se...I have sinned...256 tsor-es...troubles...256 shid-dech...engagement...256 ole...intended for owe...257 E-e'vs...Job's...258 Ubber, Oi, Vai-is-mere...but woe is me...260 ganoff...thief...260 Shuf-Gan-ef, La-ti-e...the end of the thief is the gallows...263 ganoff...thief...266 nad-den...dowry...267 Talmud...Commentaries...268 Af-hu Ro-uh Gul-ga-les Ach-as Zho-fo Al-pnai Ha-mo-im...(once seeing a scull floating on the water)...269 Al Dea-taif-ta A-te-fuch Va-saif Ma-ta-yi-fo-ich Ya-tu-foon...(because thou hast immersed others, thou art thyself immersed)...269 ich, Laib-und-dank, Gott...I praise and thank God...269 Gott, vaist...God knows...271 Ois-go-gosen...spilt...273 Ober-sten...The One above...273 rach-mo-nes...mercy...273 tso-res...troubles...273 Schli-mzael...ill luck...273 mach-u-ten...relative...276 Yitschock...Isaac...278 Yitschockel...endearing term for Isaac...281 Gott, Zu-dank-en...thank God...281 Mord-che...Mordechai...282 raid...talk...283 Oi, Sch-lecht, iss mere...Oh, woe is me...283 kop, va-tick...headache...283 (Pg. 327--ed.) Er-bar-emt, zich, af, unz...been merciful to us...283 Gelaibt und Gedank is er far zein-ref-fu-a...praised and thankful is He for His cure...283 Zollen, mir, alle, zein, ge-zunt...may we all be in health...284 Zen-tell-man...intended for gentlemen...285 penne...pen...289 Sho-lem, Al-ech-em...peace to you...292 nad-den...dowry...295 aid-dem...son-in-law...296 Mazel...luck...296 Mine-keend...my child...297 Ya-vo-rech-echo, Ada-noi, Va-yish-mo-recho, Yo-air, A-do-noi, Pon-of, A-le-cho, Ve-chu-nek-u, Ye-saw, Ado-noi, Ponof, A-le-cho, Va-yo-saim, La-cho, Sho-lom...The Eternal bless and preserve thee, The Eternal cause His countenance to shine upon thee, The Eternal direct His countenance towards thee and grant thee peace...297 Mazel-tov...Good luck...298 Chos-en...intended bridegroom...298 Voo-laift...where does it run...298 Malachte'...angel...305 klapt...beats...307 Cho-to-se...I have sinned...308 unzer...our...308 Tan-es...tract referred to in the Talmud...309 Rosh, Ha-sho-no...New Year...313 fanatica...referring to fanaticism...314 Tnoi-im...engagement...314 Brith Me-lo...circumcision...314 Pyd-ion Ha-ben...redemption of the first-born son...314 Al Schlo-so Dvo-rim Ho-o-lom Omade, Al Ha-toroh Va-al Ho-a-vo-do Va-al Gme-lus Cha-so-dim...upon three bases doth the Universe rest: Knowledge, Labor and the performance of good deeds...314 obber...but...318 Mai-del...girl...318 Orent-liche...honorable...318 Yitschockel, mine krane-ale...Isaac, my crown...318 Ich-huf...I hope...318 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 11 10:42:25 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 06:42:25 EDT Subject: Li'l Abner food and drink Message-ID: From an article about the Li'l Abner cartoon (Sadie Hawkins Day) in PIC, November 1948, pg. 110, col. 3: _Food and drinks_ At most dances, a dinner better known as a "nosebag supper" is served before or during the horseplay. Po'k chops, co'n pone, presarved turnips, Genu-wine Barbecued Salomey, catfish head stew, possum tail soup, chitlin's, sliced bananas with ketchup and mayonnaise (all Li'l Abner's favorites) may be served. The chances are there'll be plenty of bellyaches if you stick too faithfully to the Yokums' diet. To keep everybody healthy, we suggest you make the following substitutions: For Salomey Special or Hammus Alabammus--ham. For presarved turnips--frosted cupcakes with gumdrop leaves. For Skunk Hollow Sandwish--club sandwich. For Yokum Special--pork chops. For Slobbovian Delight--barbecued meat or hamburgers with barbecue sauce. (Co. 4--ed.) For teetotalers, buttermilk does nicely, but the traditional Sadie Hawkins Day drink is Kickapoo Joy Juice. Li'l Abner suggests the usal "ingreejunts"--"a barr'l o' kerosene, two dozen chicken haids, a bucket o' somethin' sloppy we swiped off a passin' truck, a motorman's glove, three pairs o' old socks, a dash o' axlegrease, turpentine," etc. Concoct any brew you want, make it as zany as possible, asking each couple to contribute something (an old-look shirt, a rubber tire, a pair of false teeth, etc.). A prize should be awarded to the couple that best tells in a couplet why they consider their contribution vital to the making of Kickapoo Joy Juice. For the actual drink, however, stick to a good old-fashioned punch recipe--you'll stay healthier that-a-way. From stevekl at PANIX.COM Tue Sep 11 13:00:46 2001 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:00:46 -0400 Subject: That's gay, but it's not homosexual; etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Frank Abate wrote: > I can report that the kids (my 15-year-old son and his crowd) use "gay" as a > general term of disparagement, directed at anyone who does something they > should not have done, and is viewed as weird, embarrassing, perhaps > effeminate. I cannot say whether this is widespread, but it is clearly in > use in slang in the Northeast. This has had national exposure for quite some time. Bart Simpson has used it on The Simpsons many seasons ago (in reference to Milhouse kissing a girl, even.) Apparently it's used in the recent Kevin Smith movie too. I read an article in Boston's Bay Windows whining about how 'our' word is being taken away, using many of the same arguments people whined about when we the 'queer' sense started supplanting the 'merry' one. I almost wrote in a letter saying, get over it, words change, but I never got around to it. -- Steve Kl. From stevekl at PANIX.COM Tue Sep 11 13:03:05 2001 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:03:05 -0400 Subject: St Louis dialect In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010907175441.00afdc00@nb.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > Yes, I've heard it rarely in MI (and IL, I think). I don't recall ever > hearing 'depants' although it seems natural and transparent. Me too. I grew up in MI (1966-1986) and lived in IL (1986-1996). It's not in my active vocabulary, but is in my passive one, and I can't for the life of me figure out how, but I'm familiar with the term. Is it possible some author like Paul Zindel or Judy Blume used it in a book? -- Steve Kl. From stevekl at PANIX.COM Tue Sep 11 13:05:13 2001 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:05:13 -0400 Subject: Kozakiewicz gesture In-Reply-To: <11.1a4f6bfd.28cbbfd8@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, James A. Landau wrote: > I have no idea of the origin of this gesture, but it has been in use in the > USA for many years, with the meaning "up your ass!". In Czech, this is rendered as "Do prdele." I bet Polish has something similar. -- Steve Kl. From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Sep 11 17:40:45 2001 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:40:45 -0700 Subject: Kosher Americans (1929) (Yiddish word appendix) In-Reply-To: <62.13b4abc1.28cf2cd1@aol.com> Message-ID: A couple of very minor points: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > KOSHER AMERICANS > by Joseph D. Rosenberg > Associated Publishers COmpany, Atlantic City, NJ > 1929 > Olov Hasholom...Peace to them...2 Literally "Peace be upon him" usu. in reference to the dead. > Forward...Jewish newspaper...3 Famous Yiddish newspaper published in New York. > Minion...congregation...13 Not the whole congregation, but the minimum number present to begin prayers. > Talmud...Commentaries of the Scriptures...14 Commentary on the Mishnah, not the Scriptures. > lechaem...drink...21 Equals "La-chayim"? = to life, a common toast > Gon-a-den...Heaven...28 Literally "Garden of Eden" > Eli, Eli...My God my God...31 > Aden-oi-E-Chod...The Eternal is One...31 Lines from a famous Yiddish aria (maybe by Yossele Rosenblatt?) > Mish-oo-med...apostates...41 Lit. "an apostate" apostates is "meshumodim" > Mikvah...pool...49 (OED?--ed.) Also ritual bath. > Clab-er-ais...intended for cabarets...73 Interesting. Sounds like the name of a card game klaberjas (sp?) don't know this word. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 11 22:52:14 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:52:14 EDT Subject: There goes my trip to Iran... Message-ID: THERE GOES MY TRIP TO IRAN... Yesterday, I dropped off my visa at the Iranian Embassy in Washington, D.C. I had planned to be gone from September 17-October 23, to Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan with Mir Corp. (specialists in the former Soviet Union countries), a few days in Istanbul, and then to Iran. The professor leading the Iran tour is the author of HOW WRITING BEGAN. It was to have been a special highlight in all of my travels. First, both tour companies bought the same air tickets. Then, passenger planes are hijacked, and they attack and destroy the World Trade Center. -------------------------------------------------------- ITALIAN TRIBUNE I read 1941-1945 of New Jersey's ITALIAN TRIBUNE in the Library of Congress yesterday. The years 1931-1940 are not available; 1946-1955 are also not available. What I saw was not very interesting. It's a four pager a week, with one page in Italian. About once a month there would be food recipes, but they weren't notable. 22 August 1941, pg. 1, col. 1: Someone suggests "Hamburger Steaks" be called "Defense Steaks." Perhaps another bright mind will suggest spaghetti be called "Yankee Noodles." What about Japanese lanterns? Why not call them "Liberty Flames"? 17 July 1942, pg. 1, col. 1: Q. I am six feet three inches. How long should my skirt be? A. Long enough to cover everything and short enough to be interesting. 21 May 1942, pg. 2, col. 1: _THE NEW FRONTIER_ Every great war opens a new frontier. (...) 10 December 1943, pg. 4, col. 1: _Biscottini di Natale_ 7 January 1944, pg. 2, col. 3: ...(1) the world will soon be safe from the JAPANAZIS and... -------------------------------------------------------- COMPACT COMPACT: THE YOUNG PEOPLE'S DIGEST ran in the 1950s and had a college humor section, but I didn't see much slang. January 1954: _The Bunny Hop_ NATION'S newest dance craze is the Bunny Hop. Made up by (?) set, it was discovered by bandleader Ray Anthony (whose (?) of the "Dragnet" theme has made him the Mr. Big of bandleaders). January 1955, pg. 94 (From a 1954 story in the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE): _CAPITOL HILL "INTERNES"_ (...) The six are Congressional Internes, sponsored by the American Political Science Association. (Col. 2--ed.) Already, in the first year of the program, the Association's proteges have proved so capable that the APSA can't fill all the demands for them. -------------------------------------------------------- PIC I finished this, going through 1947 amd 1948 in the Library of Congress yesterday. January 1947, pg. 1 ad: "I'm the ideal gift for the man 'who has everything'." (Mr. Bartender--ed.) January 1947, pg. 105, col. 2: _"DUN IN THE BUN"_ is the password for the Pronto Pup, the latest thing in the hot dog department. By using a special flour-mix a batter can be made in which the frankfurter can be dunked before immersion in a deep fryer. Three minutes later, out comes the weenie cooked in its own jacket. Mustard and relish supplied by the management but you'd better bring your own red hot! (A "corn dog"?--ed.) April 1947, pg. 108, col. 3: Like Sam Goldwyn and Gregory Ratoff, Michael Curtiz (Curteez), veteran Hungarian-born movie director is renowned for his picturesque mishandling of English. A classic stems from his request for riderless mounts for a cavalry scene years ago, "Send me the empty horses," he bellowed. Once he berated a derelict assistant, "Next time I want a fool to do something, I go myself." Curtiz now heads his own film company and "The Unsuspected" will be his initial release. He won an Oscar in 1944 for "Casablanca." June 1947, col. 1: ...a genuine hillbilly or its modern equivalent, a "city billy." At first, "city billies" were resented as imposters cashing in on a good thing, but not for long. September 1947, pg. 32 (photo caption): RAY ELIOT, a "player's coach," and target of abuse from armchair quarterbacks, conferring with Illinois Captain Art Dufelmeier. January 1948, pg. 39: _FIVE PAYOFF SHOTS_ (The basketball shots are Jump Shot, Set Shot, Pivot Shot, The Layup, and The Foul. Dunk is not here--ed.) March 1948, pg. 73, col. 1: _LOX, STOCK AND BAGEL:_ During his hitch in the Army, Murray Schwartz found he had an I.Q. of 145 and an unsatisfied craving for Sunday breakfasts of lox, bagel, and cream cheese. Back home in Brooklyn, Schwartz put the two together and came up with a flourishing small business. April 1948, pg. 8, col. 3: Who's going to tell the "Snow Bunny" on your January cover that his long trip up was in vain--no toe straps? -------------------------------------------------------- MORNING GLORY SEEDS Not in OED, RHHDAS, CDS? From CLYDE, January 1965, pg. 77: _MORNING GLORY SEEDS_ _Consciousness Expanding Drugs_ (...) by ARTHUR ROBERTS What you are about to read is a true account of my own experiences with the mind-expanding, or consciousness expanding morning glory seeds. -------------------------------------------------------- MENSCH/MENCH See the 1930 citation below, from Jesse. From KOSHER AMERICANS (1929), pg. 80: I call dat _geler-en-ter, mench_ (learned man) an _emmes-e' Yid_ (true Jew). Pg. 101: "Hain't it strange dat I vonted to call you by dat name mineself. Anyole, I ham sure you are a _ge-ler-en-ter mench_ (learned man) in Hebraish, maybe?" -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: LOC doesn't have OED? Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:16:55 -0400 Size: 1430 URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 11 23:38:51 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:38:51 EDT Subject: Flash! magazine (1937) Message-ID: FLASH! magazine was born about the same time as PIC, but FLASH! covered "Negroes." I went through some of 1937 yesterday and found a "large apple" for New York City (the Big Apple dance was in 1937), but I don't know where that is now. 4 July 1937, pg. 18, col. 1: Dig this will ya? 9 August 1937. pg. 12, col. 2: Rug-cut? Well, that's a new name for the Lindy hop. Too many flyers passed the Atlantic bounding main under themselves since the Lindbergh hop--so, it's now simply Rug-cut. The name explains itself. The dance is what (Rug-cutting); who (Rug-cutters); damaged (Rug). 13 September 1937, pg. 12, col. 2: When the _COTTON_ Club opens in September, even sepias with the necessary dough-re-mi won't witness the (?) unless they're guest of some of the stars. 27 September 1937, pg. 8, col. 2: _COLLEGIATE RAMIFICATIONS_ the harbinger of the fall season, drop on us with a chill...not to mention the celebrated "swing sisters," "weed parties"... 4 October 1937, pg. 8, col. 3: ..."How's your box"... (A risque greeting, but copy is illegible--ed.) 25 October 1937, pg. 12, col. 2: ...mean an unwanted "Freebie" ticket back home... (M-W has 1942 for "freebie." The only citation that beats this is a 1928 "freeby" in the RHHDAS--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 12 00:13:21 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:13:21 EDT Subject: Broken Windows (1982) Message-ID: BROKEN WINDOWS--A theory that you go after small crime (broken windows), and it also helps against big crime. There's an article about it in today's NEW YORK TIMES op-ed (www.nytimes.com). See criticism of this on www.smartertimes.com. That web site claims that "broken windows" was coined in the March 1982 ATLANTIC MONTHLY by James Q. Wilson and George Kelling (www.theatlantic.com/politics/crime/windows.htm). I don't have my Barnhart New Words handy to check. SPIDER--A folk design that I saw in Poland was the "spider" web, above a table. I was told that there's a book in English on Polish folk art, but I didn't see any such book sold at the Polish museums. (Maybe I can hitch-hike to the Word Detective's pad in Ohio. Nobody bombs Ohio. I can help kill his spiders--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 11 14:01:53 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:01:53 +0800 Subject: enantiosemy In-Reply-To: <41100325.3208783900@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: At 4:51 PM +0100 9/6/01, Lynne Murphy wrote: >Not a dialect question, but a word history question. Hope you don't mind! > >I'm looking for earlier use of the word 'enantiosemy', which is a fancy way >of referring to "words that are their own opposites" (or the state of being >a word with incompatible meanings) (aka Janus words, auto-antonyms, >contronyms, antagonyms...). ...and antilogies, my favorite. (Sorry, nothing to offer on "enantiosemy".) larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 12 02:24:21 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:24:21 EDT Subject: "Terrorism anywhere is a threat to humanity everywhere" Message-ID: "TERRORISM ANYWHERE IS A THREAT TO HUMANITY EVERYWHERE" President Bill Clinton said, after Chechen-related bombings in Russia, that "acts of terror anywhere are a threat to humanity everywhere." This 18 September 1999 statement is at: http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/99091801.htm Did he coin it? Check for "anywhere" and "everywhere" and "threat" and "terror/terrorism" on the usual databases. -------------------------------------------------------- PLERK (PLAY & WORK) "Plerk" ("play" plus "work") was found on a web-brousing search just now. One site claims it was coined by Barry Stevens; another site claims it's by a professor named Ostrom. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 12 02:34:44 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:34:44 EDT Subject: "Terrorism/Injustice anywhere..." Message-ID: A web search came up with: "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." --Martin Luther King, Jr. This obviously inspired Bill Clinton's "acts of terror anywhere...," which he may or may not have coined. From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Wed Sep 12 10:59:14 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:59:14 +0100 Subject: enantiosemy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:01 pm +0800 Laurence Horn wrote: > ...and antilogies, my favorite. (Sorry, nothing to offer on > "enantiosemy".) Yes, I've got that one noted as well--although I have no idea why it would be anyone's favorite! I hope all is reasonably well in your life. I seem unable to keep myself away from the BBC site long enough to get any work done. Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Sep 12 11:06:37 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:06:37 -0400 Subject: New York City Message-ID: For the record, can we do a roll call of folks in New York City? Just a "here" would be good. Here. PS: I've been collecting links to personal accounts, home video and amateur photos at the link below. -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 12 14:47:58 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:47:58 EDT Subject: "Between the horse and the horseshoe" Message-ID: From the Village Voice web site (www.villagevoice.com/issues/0137/baard.php): _Immigrants Say They're Caught "Between the Horse and the Horseshoe"_ _Listening to the Arabs of New York_ by Erik Baard (I don't know if Fred Shapiro has this one...Ten years ago, they were caught "between Iraq and a hard place"--ed.) From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Wed Sep 12 15:23:43 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:23:43 -0400 Subject: Broken Windows (1982) In-Reply-To: <129.46ee88d.28d002a2@aol.com> Message-ID: Well, not yet at least. But one plane reached the Cleveland area, then veered southeastward toward our area in SE Ohio, then crossed into PA, where it crashed in a field. Too close for comfort. At 08:13 PM 9/11/01 -0400, Barry wrote: >(Maybe I can hitch-hike to the Word Detective's pad in Ohio. Nobody bombs >Ohio. I can help kill his spiders--ed.) _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 12 19:57:54 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:57:54 EDT Subject: World Trade Center/Centre Message-ID: World Trade Center or World Trade Centre? The official name is "Center." There are other WTCs around the world, so I added some key words. The numbers from Google.com: World Trade Center bombing--16,400 World Trade Centre bombing--1,240 World Trade Center terrorist attack--8,400 World Trade Centre terrorist attack--681 I also checked Rec.humor, the group that spread NASA (Need Another Seven Astronauts) and DIANA (Died In A Nasty Accident). There were some messages about how you can get to the top of the World Trade Center, but that was it. I don't know if there's a name for it, besides "gallows humor" or "offensive." From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Sep 12 19:56:43 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:56:43 -0400 Subject: New York City Message-ID: here. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Grant Barrett Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:06 am Subject: New York City > For the record, can we do a roll call of folks in New York City? > Just a > "here" would be good. > > Here. > > > > > > > PS: I've been collecting links to personal accounts, home video > and amateur > photos at the link below. > > -- > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > http://www.worldnewyork.org/ > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 12 22:50:05 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:50:05 EDT Subject: Circle of Silence Message-ID: NYU had a "Circle of Silence" today at 5 p.m. This is not in the OED. WorldCat didn't have many early citations. Here's one: The circle of silence: listening to the voices of autistic children: a keynote address delivered April 11, 1975 at Le Chateau Champlain, Montreal, Canada by Austin M. Des Lauriers Devereux Foundation, 1975 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Sep 13 01:06:21 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:06:21 -0500 Subject: Dictionary of 1913 Baseball and Other Lingo Message-ID: For those who may be interested--- I have privately published a limited edition of the following book: _Dictionary of 1913 Baseball And Other Lingo_, volume 1: A-F. Primarily from the baseball columns of the San Francisco Bulletin, Feb. - May 1913. 208 pp.; soft cover. cost. $20 + $5.00 (five) for shipping and handling. For this first printing I have run off 110 copies--10 for my personal use and 100 for sale. I suppose the material will be of interest to lexicographers and word researchers. I have intentionally kept the number of copies low, and do not expect the demand to warrant a second printing. In any case, I would like to complete volumes 2 and 3 (2002, 2003) before considering a second printing. The book lists the terms I find of interest in the 1913 S.F. Bulletin baseball articles and then presents the examples in context. This work started as a careful search for the earliest attestations of "jazz" (used in a baseball context before a music one) and then broadened out as a whole variety of interesting baseball terms and expressions came to my attention. Upon request, I could present 1 1/2 pages from the preface that explain the project in more detail. For now I would say that I have aimed to produce a scholarly treatment (with the examples of attestations and their exact references). Checks should be made payable to the University of Missouri-Rolla and mailed to me: Gerald Cohen, G-4 Humanities Social Sciences Building, University of Missouri-Rolla, Rolla MO 65401. The project is non-profit; all funds remaining after publication costs are met will be donated to a scholarship fund at the University of Missouri-Rolla. ---Gerald Cohen Professor of Foreign Languages research specialty: etymology From slangman at PACBELL.NET Thu Sep 13 01:29:45 2001 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:29:45 -0700 Subject: Dictionary of 1913 Baseball and Other Lingo Message-ID: Great! Hold one for me - check will be in the mail tomorrow. Best, Tom Dalzell Gerald Cohen wrote: > For those who may be interested--- > > I have privately published a limited edition of the following book: > > _Dictionary of 1913 Baseball And Other Lingo_, volume 1: A-F. > Primarily from the baseball columns of the San Francisco Bulletin, > Feb. - May 1913. 208 pp.; soft cover. cost. $20 + $5.00 (five) for > shipping and handling. > > For this first printing I have run off 110 copies--10 for my > personal use and 100 for sale. I suppose the material will be of > interest to lexicographers and word researchers. I have intentionally > kept the number of copies low, and do not expect the demand to > warrant a second printing. In any case, I would like to complete > volumes 2 and 3 (2002, 2003) before considering a second printing. > > The book lists the terms I find of interest in the 1913 S.F. > Bulletin baseball articles and then presents the examples in context. > > This work started as a careful search for the earliest > attestations of "jazz" (used in a baseball context before a music > one) and then broadened out as a whole variety of interesting > baseball terms and expressions came to my attention. > > Upon request, I could present 1 1/2 pages from the preface that > explain the project in more detail. For now I would say that I have > aimed to produce a scholarly treatment (with the examples of > attestations and their exact references). > > Checks should be made payable to the University of Missouri-Rolla > and mailed to me: Gerald Cohen, G-4 Humanities Social Sciences > Building, University of Missouri-Rolla, Rolla MO 65401. The project > is non-profit; all funds remaining after publication costs are met > will be donated to a scholarship fund at the University of > Missouri-Rolla. > > ---Gerald Cohen > Professor of Foreign Languages > research specialty: etymology From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 13 03:46:39 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:46:39 EDT Subject: "Revenge is a dish best served cold" Message-ID: REVENGE IS A DISH BEST SERVED COLD This is the title of an opinion in today's LOS ANGELES TIMES, 12 September 2001, pg. B-9. It's also the slogan of a new movie, DINNER RUSH (www.DinnerRush.com). It's not in my Stevenson book of quotations. It goes back to about 1986 on the Dow Jones database, where it was cited as an old Sicilian proverb. -------------------------------------------------------- VEG-CITY DINER I walked past this place, which is at both 55 West 14th Street and 37 Third Avenue. CHICKEN MOCKNUGGETS--Soy Nuggets Served With Honey Mustard Dipping Sauce...4.95 TLT--Tofu Bacon, Lettuce and Tomato With Nayonaise(R)...4.75 PHONY ISLAND CORN DOG--Soy Dog Corn Battered And Fried With Mustard...3.25 -------------------------------------------------------- IRON SUSHI CHEF Located at 440 Third Avenue. A drum roll, please... BOSTON ROLL--Shrimp, Cucumber, Avocado, Lettuces, Mayonnaise with Tobiko...5.75 CALIFORNIA ROLL--Mock Crab Avocado...3.95 ALASKA ROLL--Salmon, Avocado, Cucumber Inside-Out...4.95 PHILADELPHIA ROLL--Salmon, Cream Cheese, Avocado, Cucumber Tempura Batter & Scallion...5.75 TORO (NEGI) ROLL--Tuna Belly & Chopped Scallion...5.75 YELLOWTAIL SPECIAL ROLL--Yellowtail Salmon Caviar & Avocade Inside-Out...6.50 NEW YORK ROLL--Shrimp, Salmon, Avocado, Cucumber Inside-Out w. Tobiko...6.75 CALAMARI ROLL--Fried Batter Squid Avocado, Lettuce, Cucumber, Inside-Out w. Fish Roe...6.95 DYNAMITE ROLL--Spicy White Tuna Wrapped w. Avocado, Cucumber, Aspargus & Fish Roe...7.75 EBI TEMPURA ROLL--Fried Batter Shrimp w. Avocado & Cucumber, Inside-Out w. Tobiko...7.75 PARK AVENUE ROLL (No Rice)--Salmon, Salmon Caviar, Mock Crab & Radish Sprout Wrapped in a Cucumber...7.75 DRAGON ROLL--Eel Wrapped w. Avocado Containing Fish Roe. Cucumber & Radish Sprout...7.95 VOLCANO ROLL--Spicy Tuna w. Flying Fish Roe & Avocado on the Outside...8.75 ELEPHANT EYE ROLL (No Rice)--Squid Stuffed w. Eel, Salmon, Shrimp & Seaweed...9.75 RAINBOW ROLL--Tuna, Salmon, Yellowtail, Mock Crab Meat, Avocado, Cucumber, Asparagus & Fish Roe...12.75 SPIDER ROLL--Soft Shell Crab Cucumber Lettuce Inside-Out w. Tobiko...13.75 CHRISTMAS ROLL--White Tuna Wrapped w. Seaweed, Avocado, Fish Roe...13.95 CHUKA SALAD--Green Wakame Seaweed Marinated w. Sesame Dressing...4.95 KANI SALAD--Crab Meat, Mayonnaise, Flying Fish Roe & Cucumber...5.95 SAKE SALAD--Salmon & Avocado, Radish & Pickle Served w. Sweet Soybean Paste Dressing...5.95 YOKAN (Red Bean Cake)...2.50 (PERSONAL MISC.: My trip next week was NOT canceled...A woman I met in Japan called to ask if I was O.K. I was in Japan?) From douglas at NB.NET Thu Sep 13 05:05:02 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:05:02 -0400 Subject: "Revenge is a dish best served cold" In-Reply-To: <7e.1ab592fd.28d18620@aol.com> Message-ID: >REVENGE IS A DISH BEST SERVED COLD This is said to be from Pierre Ambroise Francois Choderios de LaClos, _Les Liaisons Dangereuses_ (1782): "La vengeance est un plat qui se mange froid". -- Doug Wilson From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM Thu Sep 13 05:01:49 2001 From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:01:49 -0400 Subject: "Revenge is a dish best served cold" In-Reply-To: <7e.1ab592fd.28d18620@aol.com> Message-ID: Sicilian? Hardly. Try Klingon ? from 1982 in STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN, in which Khan (Ricardo Montalban) taunts Kirk: "Ah Kirk, my old friend. Do you know the Klingon proverb that tells us revenge is a dish that is best served cold? It is very cold in space." I'm sure that I heard it before this, but this is the first time I remember it. I know, I know; geek check. On 9/12/01 11:46 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > REVENGE IS A DISH BEST SERVED COLD > > This is the title of an opinion in today's LOS ANGELES TIMES, 12 September > 2001, pg. B-9. It's also the slogan of a new movie, DINNER RUSH > (www.DinnerRush.com). > It's not in my Stevenson book of quotations. It goes back to about 1986 on > the Dow Jones database, where it was cited as an old Sicilian proverb. -- Bob Haas Department of English High Point University "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Sep 13 08:34:51 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:34:51 +0100 Subject: Dictionary of 1913 Baseball and Other Lingo Message-ID: Gerald, Like Tom Dalzell, I'm in the queue for one of these. Please reserve and I shall get the requisite dollars in the post. Jonathon Green From transedit.h at TELIA.COM Thu Sep 13 10:21:30 2001 From: transedit.h at TELIA.COM (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:21:30 +0200 Subject: Revenge... Message-ID: According to Petit Robert, Dictionnaire de la langue francaise, this is a Corsican saying: "La vengeance est un plat qui se mange froid" Original message from Barry Popik: >REVENGE IS A DISH BEST SERVED COLD > This is the title of an opinion in today's LOS ANGELES TIMES, 12 September 2001, pg. B-9. It's also the slogan of a new movie, DINNER RUSH (www.DinnerRush.com). > It's not in my Stevenson book of quotations. It goes back to about 1986 on the Dow Jones database, where it was cited as an old Sicilian proverb. Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From douglas at NB.NET Thu Sep 13 11:32:22 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:32:22 -0400 Subject: Revenge... In-Reply-To: <003d01c13c3d$dd96be40$37c8143e@oemcomputer> Message-ID: >According to Petit Robert, Dictionnaire de la langue francaise, this is a >Corsican saying: "La vengeance est un plat qui se mange froid" A quick glance at the Web shows the following purported 'ethnicities' for this 'proverb': "English" [supposedly according to Mencken] "French" "Spanish" "Italian" [apparently the name of a 1971 movie "La Vendetta e un Piatto Che Si Serve Freddo"] "Sicilian" [apparently claimed in a Puzo novel] "Arabian" "Chinese" "Afghanistan" "Apache" "Klingon" "Dwarvish" I found it quoted once in Italian, supposedly from a novel (unnamed). I found it in English supposedly quoted/translated from a few different 19th century books. There are also variants with "revenge"/"vengeance" replaced with "tuna", "pizza", "Jello", "American beer", etc. I presume, in Robert, the 'Corsican saying' has been translated into French, without the original being quoted? Or is this from the Frenchified part of Corsica? -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Sep 13 01:31:28 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:31:28 +0800 Subject: Revenge... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010913065644.00b085e0@nb.net> Message-ID: At 7:32 AM -0400 9/13/01, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>According to Petit Robert, Dictionnaire de la langue francaise, this is a >>Corsican saying: "La vengeance est un plat qui se mange froid" > >A quick glance at the Web shows the following purported 'ethnicities' for >this 'proverb': > >"English" [supposedly according to Mencken] >"French" >"Spanish" >"Italian" [apparently the name of a 1971 movie "La Vendetta e un Piatto Che >Si Serve Freddo"] >"Sicilian" [apparently claimed in a Puzo novel] It's cited (as an old Sicilian proverb) in The Godfather (1972), although that obviously doesn't prove provenance. larry From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Sep 13 12:25:05 2001 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:25:05 -0400 Subject: Dictionary of 1913 Baseball and Other Lingo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Professor Cohen, Correction to my last e-mail -- of course, you've provided the address to send the money to. Our librarian will send you the check! Thanks, Joanne From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Sep 13 16:04:07 2001 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:04:07 -0700 Subject: Kozakiewics gesture In-Reply-To: <00c301c13a1e$3d8f0ea0$d1c9143e@oemcomputer> Message-ID: --- Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote: > Jim Landau wrote: > > >From the description, sounds like the same thing as > the "bra d'honneur". > > Yes, very much so: > "Bras d'honneur: Geste injurieux (simulacre > d'erection)" says Nouveau Petit Robert, Dictionnaire > de la langue francaise. > It is described by Genevi?ve Calbris and Jacques > Montredon in Des gestes et des mots pour le dire, > DIC Mini-dictionnaires, Cl? International, 1986: > "...made by placing one hand at the crook of the > opposite arm and lifting - or extending - the > latter, fist balled, to figure the male member in > erection." > Jan Ivarsson > jan.ivarsson at transedit.st Sorry for the misspelling. I personnaly know the gest goes back at least to the mid-60's, although I didn't associate the name "bras d'honneur" with it until the late 70's. ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Sep 13 17:03:41 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:03:41 -0400 Subject: "Revenge is a dish best served cold" Message-ID: Being an old-fashioned guy, as many of you have long suspected, I have checked this in books. Mencken has: "English proverb, not recorded before the XIX century", under "revenge". (I had forgotten what a fascinating book this is, though I have owned a copy since I was in high school. Among his other quotations under this head are Revenge is the poor delight of little minds. Juvenal. A man that studieth revenge keeps his own wounds green. Bacon. Delay in vengeance gives a heavier blow. John Ford. Who'll sleep in safety that has done me wrong? Thomas Otway. In taking revenge a man is but even with his enemy, but in passing it over he is superior. Thomas Fuller. The quotations from Ford and Otway undoubtedly come from plays -- Mencken doesn't specify -- and need to be evaluated according to the character who speaks them. The others need to be evaluated also, but are at least offered as the writer's own view.) But I digress. I didn't find this in the historical dictionaries of English proverbs by Tilley or Whiting. Other than the classics and the bible, Mencken's sources are largely English and American. But it's not in W. Meider's recent Prentice-Hall Dictionary of World Proverbs. The Oxford Dictionary of English Proverbs, 3rd ed., 1970, has the following: Revenge is a dish that should be eaten cold. 1620. Shelton, [transl. of Don] Quix. . . . Revenge is not good in cold blood. 1885. C. Lowe, Bismarck. . . . [Bismarck] had defended Olmutz, it is true, but . . . with a secret resolution to "eat the dish of revenge cold instead of hot". 1895. J. Payn In Mark. Ov. . . . Invective can be used at any time; like vengeance, it is a dish that can be eaten cold. I notice that none of these quotations actually illustrate the heading, and indeed the first contradicts it. This is perhaps evidence that F. P Wilson or his predecessor was familiar with a European proverb in that form? I hope that this message has not been sent twice. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 13 18:26:22 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:26:22 EDT Subject: Complete Western Cookbook ((1964) Message-ID: LIFE IN NEW YORK: Last night, there was a bomb scare in the Empire State Building. Just now, there was a bomb scare at Grand Central Terminal. The New York Public Library (where I write this) was closed yesterday and is on reduced hours today. I work at Parking Violations. Our emergency headquarters is located at the World Trade Center. The calendar unit has the same message, then says that the mailbox was full. If you've never been to New York, this is not a normal day or week. -------------------------------------------------------- THE COMPLETE WESTERN COOKBOOK: THE GOURMET'S GUIDE TO THE LAND BEYOND THE PECOS by Betty Johnson A. S. Barnes & Company, NY 1964 For some reason, the NYPL catalog has this book under "cookery." Not "cookery-southern" or "cookery-southwest." Just "cookery." No "chimichangas," even though New Mexican dishes are on pages 12-16. Here goes: Pg. 13: Green Chili...Nixtamal (Lime Hominy). Pg. 14: Carne con Chili Colorado (Meat with Red Chili). Pg. 20: Squirrel Pot Pie. Pg. 22: Chicken Bernalillo. Pg. 25: Mexican Chicken. Pg. 33: Rancho Sauce. Pg. 51: Dinette Cake. Pg. 55: Lazy-Daisy Cake. Pg. 94: Chocolate Indians. Pg. 94: Coconut Brownies. Pg. 99: Raggedy Ann Cereal Bars. Pg. 110: Sail Boats. (Cheese, pickles, cucumbers--ed.) Pg. 117: Armenian Beaurack. Pg. 128: Rancher's Eggs. Pg. 128: Fried Eggs Mexican. Pg. 129: Hobo Breakfast Eggs. Pg. 151: Italian Bread Sticks. Pg. 166: Butterfly Salad. Pg. 187: Mazetti. Pg. 200: Jiffy Cheesefurters. Pg. 200: Rancho Rings. Pg. 201: Beanie Weenies. (Crackpot letter to the New York Times attached--ed.) -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Bapopik at aol.com Subject: World Day Against Terrorism Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:28:41 EDT Size: 1482 URL: From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Sep 13 21:57:06 2001 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:57:06 -0700 Subject: "Revenge is a dish best served cold" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010913001325.00b0d830@nb.net> Message-ID: --- "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > >REVENGE IS A DISH BEST SERVED COLD > > This is said to be from Pierre Ambroise Francois > Choderios de LaClos, _Les > Liaisons Dangereuses_ (1782): "La vengeance est un > plat qui se mange froid". > > -- Doug Wilson I did a search through Les Liaisons Dangereuses for the words "revanche", "vengeance", "plat", "mange", and "froid" but could find nothing even remotely resembling this phrase. ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 13 22:33:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:33:45 EDT Subject: FLASH! magazine slang (1938) Message-ID: From FLASH! magazine (Washington, D.C.), 21 February 1938, pg. 11, col. 1: _"Jolly's Jottings"_ by William "Jolly" Fosythe, Jr. WHEREIN YOUR COLUMNIST ATTEMPTS TO GIVE A COMPREHENSIVE STANDARD GLOSSARY AND COMPENDIUM OF COMMONLY USED WORDS AND PHRASES GIVING THE SPELLING MINUS THE ETYMOLOGY ACCOMPANIED BY SYNONYMS AND ILLUSTRATIVE EXAMPLES WHERE NECESSARY. DITHERS--In the well known quandry, usually over the female of the species. SIR STORK--A phrase used commonly by columnists to describe the long legged bird who is supposed to bring the heirs or bundles from heaven. BIB'N TUCKER--Full dress suit or tuxedo. BLUE CHIP CLASS--Supposedly referring to the uppity or aristocractic set of sepia America, also commonly called the CAVIAR SET AND TOP DRAWER SET. Usually of the front-running-champagne-appetite class with the price of root pop. FREEBIE--Something that does not cost the recipient anything. Usually applied when referring to drinks or eats. ON THE TURN--Out for an evening of unlimited sport that includes all of the spots that are most frequented, with any hour the next morning seeing you home. CHICK--Usually applied to a member of the female species, however harmless it is often misconstrued. MESSY CHICK--A young lady who orders cocktails with pretty names and then spills them all over your suit, also one who hugs every man she meets at every cocktail lounge and attempts to talk and act cute after having had the first three ounces of a 16 oz. beer and winds up the evening terribly sick and still you are supposed to like it. UNHEP--Any individual who impresses one as not being a person who really knows just what it is all about, very briefly a tenderfoot or greenhorn. UNHEP CHICK--See CHICK and UNHEP, combine them and yours' bound to have a mess. SUB DEB--One of these sweet young things who just isn't of age but whom the older boys will be "gunning" for on the day of the coming out party. DEBBIE--Commonly called debutante, and is one who had followed the usual ritual concerning decorum and mannerisms prior to the coming out party and is now definitely in circulation for the desirable company, but her desires usually run toward the older gentry with cash. MATRON--A married woman, saying too much about them is not too safe so I'll lay off. GANDER--Meaning to look, and look real hard so as to repeat the details to the first news-hawk you meet. WEED--Between New York and Washington commonly called REEFER or TEA. A cigarette composed of the marihuana weed, which produces weird effects upon the smoker, that he terms, "being sent." BIGGIE--A leader or ruler of his particular domain or field. DIGIT BARON--A biggie in the business of "numbers" usually possessing a fair amount of wealth. WATERING PLACES--THe most popular eat, drink and dine places along any stem, usually catering especially to satiation of the thirst. COLLAR--Meaning to understand. (Ex: DO you collar?) JIVE--Sometimes spelled JIBE; meaning to dwell intently upon an effusive exhortation along some particular line minus sincerity. MEDICO--A Doctor of Medicine. PASHED UP--Quite in the dithers over a lady of your choice whose indifference keeps you awake nites and causes you to drink excessively. KILLER DILER--Favorite expression of musicians when one of their tunes appeals to the ear in an unusual manner that has a tendency to cause excessive jubilance among the dancers and listeners. RUG CUT--A newly coined expression describing the apparently savage machination of the latest edition of the revision of the popular "Lindy Hop." DIG MY PAD--Go home to my bed. STACH MY FRAME--See DIG MY PAD. BIFFER--Young lady who may have all the education, money and personality in the world but she is ever so homely. SOLID--An expression that eliminates the use od superfluous words to indicate that everything is exceedingly well with the speaker. RAG--A newspaper, usually referred to as a SHEET. SWINGEROO--A dance that is a "killer-diller" in every sense of the word both musically and pulchritudinally, not to mention the liquid phase. UNHITCH--Same as RENO-VATE, meaning to get a new lease on life from the divorse courts, and freedom from your wife. LUSH--Meaning liquor, thus a LUSH HOUND is the same a habitual inebriate. VIPER--One who smokes the habit-forming WEED. DIG YOU--See you later on. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Sep 13 23:34:42 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:34:42 -0400 Subject: Cracker Dictionary, 1830 Message-ID: One of the inducements to pass my spare time in reading 180+ year old newspapers has been that the crimes, follies and horrors related in them are far beyond preventing, assuaging or even regretting. This was never more true than now. >From the New-York Evening Post, May 18, 1830, p. 2, col. 2. Confusion worse confounded. -- The Augusta Courier contains a specimen of a "Cracker Dictionary," which makes us acquainted with some very curious terms in use among the Southern Cockneys. At the head of the list we find the following words: -- Bodaciously, Catawampously, Contraption, &c. The definitions, in some instances, convey to us of the north a not very clear idea of the meaning. "Ramsquaddled," for instance, is said to mean "Rowed up salt river." *** I note that Bodaciously is in Dictionary of Americanisms from 1846, so that unless OED -- which I didn't check -- has an earlier date, this is a 16 year antedating. Catawampously is in Dictionary of American English from 1830. Ramsquaddled is in Dictionary of Americanisms from 1830, also. The phrase "rowed up salt river" is in Dictionary of Americanisms from 1830, and is there defined as "to overcome, to use up a person bodaciously". I don't have access to the Augusta Courier from May, 1830. It might be interesting to see what other terms appear there. I suppose that the fact that three of these words have been first found in 1830 may mean that that they were spread by this "cracker dictionary". GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Sep 13 23:39:08 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:39:08 -0400 Subject: "Recessions uncover what auditors do not" Message-ID: Barry recently offered: > -------------------------------------------------------- > BABY WEATHER (continued from "old man weather") > > From Femi Oke, my favorite CNN International weathergirl, on a > recent broadcast: > > That's classic baby weather--wet and windy. > Some of us may remember that in Ulysses, Simon Dedalus, on the way to the cemetery with Paddy Dignam's funeral, says "The sky's as uncertain as a baby's bottom." GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From douglas at NB.NET Fri Sep 14 02:03:19 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:03:19 -0400 Subject: "Revenge is a dish best served cold" In-Reply-To: <20010913215706.17637.qmail@web9708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > This is said to be from Pierre Ambroise Fran?ois > > Choderlos de Laclos, _Les > > Liaisons Dangereuses_ (1782): "La vengeance est un > > plat qui se mange froid". >I did a search through Les >Liaisons Dangereuses for the words "revanche", >"vengeance", "plat", "mange", and "froid" but could >find nothing even remotely resembling this phrase. I looked too: nothing. Another error, I guess, which isn't that unusual on the Web. Possibly the 'proverb' was employed in a stage or movie version or whatever, much later. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 14 11:14:41 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:14:41 EDT Subject: Pink Slip Party (1939) Message-ID: Life's a mess. I guess I'll have to go into work in the Bronx. No phone call. No message on the calendar unit phone. Nothing on the web site. Of course, knowing this city, it'll probably be closed and I won't get paid for showing up. My Keytronic keyboard is all messed up today and doesn't register certain keys. ------------------------------------------------------- PINK SLIP PARTY From FLASH!, 15 February 1939, pg. 25, col. 1: WPA OPTIMISM--That's what we called it when we heard about the "PINK SLIPS" party the lads threw up in Harlem who had received their (Form 403) PINK SLIPS, which meant the end of their project jobs. -------------------------------------------------------- BUNNY HUG From FLASH!, 3 January 1938, pg. 18, col. 2: SWING SESSIONS, an outgrowth of the currently popular music played by the "jam units" have outmoded to an extent the former type of close "bunny-hug" dancing that was the bane of frat house hops, as in upper left photo. The second panel illurates a modified version of the "bunny-hug," bordering more on the line of the "love-lock." -------------------------------------------------------- PANSY, GAY FLASH!, 19 April 1938, pg. 13, col. 2: OCTOBER 1937 "Pansys" invade most frequented nite spots. Today pansy parade moves Westward, finds fertile field in Pgh. nite clubs. (Also in column in "At present Jack Greenless is in seclusion in one of Philly's better hospital wards as an interne"--ed.) FLASH!, 3 May 1938, pg. 28, col. 2: DECEMBER 1937 All Philly is at present agog over the Penn Relay Carnival on the 29th and 30th with the Gays, Alphas, and the Do-Ki-Chi's entertaining the visiting socialites. -------------------------------------------------------- SWINGCERT From FLASH!, 21 June 1938, pg. 19, col. 2: _THOUSANDS JAM RANDALL_ _ISLAND FOR "SWINGCERT"_ SWING ADDICTS FROM THE CRADLE TO THE HOME FOR THE INFIRM had their fill of "killer dillers," "solid senders," "slap," "rush," and "lush" ditties when New York's radio station WNEW and Martin Block staged their first open-air swing carnival. -------------------------------------------------------- BOOGIE WOOGIE From FLASH!, 15 November 1938, pg. 23, col. 2: The ROLLING JITTERBUGS attempted all sorts of antics while on skates, including the popular "shag," "lindy hop," and the current sensation, the "boogie woogie." -------------------------------------------------------- PIG MEAT, BUGGY From FLASH!, letters, 1 November 1938, pg. 4, col. 1: Please if possible raise the standard of your magazine by eliminating such words as "pig meat" and other "buggy" material. -------------------------------------------------------- CARTOON CAPTIONS FLASH!, 24 January 1938, pg. 19, col. 2: "I'LL SHOW YOU WHO WEAR THE PANTS AROUND HERE!!" (Wife to husband--ed.) FLASH!, 3 May 1938, pg. 35: "BOY! WHAT'A FANNY" (Two children looking at a woman's rear--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- HOT-DOG EATING CONTEST? Photo caption from FLASH!, 17 January 1938, pg. 12, col. 1: JACK PARKER OF PITTSBURGH holds some sort of gustatorial record. He ate forty-four hot dogs and drank seven glasses of beer at a Pgh. polticial meeting some few weeks past, and the following day he ate fifteen more hot dogs and drank five bottles of Pepsi-Cola for a chaser. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 14 11:22:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:22:45 EDT Subject: "The Second Pearl Harbor" Message-ID: Another "Second Pearl Harbor." (Attached.) I hope it doesn't star Ben Affleck. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Avram Piltch" Subject: About Today - The Second Pearl Harbor? Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:17:03 EDT Size: 4901 URL: From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Sep 14 11:42:03 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:42:03 -0400 Subject: The Pile Message-ID: Workers at the site of the World Trade Center are calling the debris "The Pile," according to NPR this morning. -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Sep 14 14:59:08 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:59:08 EDT Subject: ACCENT: Re: Lines Overheard ... Message-ID: Could the speaker have possibly meant ACCENT in the sense of 'focus'? That is to say, the speaker didn't like the direction that it appeared that the teacher was taking the course in? Lots of people use ACCENT that way. In a message dated 8/18/2001 7:15:47 AM, lanehart at ARCHES.UGA.EDU writes: << I guess we haven't made as much progress as we'd like to think. --SL >Subject: Lines Overheard in the Starbucks, 08/16/01 > > >"The only reason I am dropping the class is because of the teacher. I >don't like her accent." > >******************************* > >> From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Fri Sep 14 15:12:32 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:12:32 -0400 Subject: Pink Slip Party (1939) In-Reply-To: <132.18593c2.28d340a2@aol.com> Message-ID: Barry, I wish you wouldn't complain about your personal problems during this trying time. Life IS a mess this week, but for all of us--and thousands of ordinary New Yorkers also aren't getting paid this week, and may not be for a long, long time. Please, cool it. At 07:14 AM 9/14/01 -0400, you wrote: > Life's a mess. > I guess I'll have to go into work in the Bronx. No phone call. No > message on the calendar unit phone. Nothing on the web site. Of course, > knowing this city, it'll probably be closed and I won't get paid for > showing up. > My Keytronic keyboard is all messed up today and doesn't register > certain keys. > >------------------------------------------------------- >PINK SLIP PARTY > > From FLASH!, 15 February 1939, pg. 25, col. 1: > >WPA OPTIMISM--That's what we called it when we heard about the "PINK >SLIPS" party the lads threw up in Harlem who had received their (Form 403) >PINK SLIPS, which meant the end of their project jobs. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >BUNNY HUG > > From FLASH!, 3 January 1938, pg. 18, col. 2: > > SWING SESSIONS, an outgrowth of the currently popular music played by > the "jam units" have outmoded to an extent the former type of close > "bunny-hug" dancing that was the bane of frat house hops, as in upper > left photo. The second panel illurates a modified version of the > "bunny-hug," bordering more on the line of the "love-lock." > >-------------------------------------------------------- >PANSY, GAY > >FLASH!, 19 April 1938, pg. 13, col. 2: OCTOBER 1937 "Pansys" invade most >frequented nite spots. Today pansy parade moves Westward, finds fertile >field in Pgh. nite clubs. >(Also in column in "At present Jack Greenless is in seclusion in one of >Philly's better hospital wards as an interne"--ed.) > >FLASH!, 3 May 1938, pg. 28, col. 2: DECEMBER 1937 All Philly is at >present agog over the Penn Relay Carnival on the 29th and 30th with the >Gays, Alphas, and the Do-Ki-Chi's entertaining the visiting socialites. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >SWINGCERT > > From FLASH!, 21 June 1938, pg. 19, col. 2: > >_THOUSANDS JAM RANDALL_ >_ISLAND FOR "SWINGCERT"_ >SWING ADDICTS FROM THE CRADLE TO THE HOME FOR THE INFIRM had their fill of >"killer dillers," "solid senders," "slap," "rush," and "lush" ditties when >New York's radio station WNEW and Martin Block staged their first open-air >swing carnival. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >BOOGIE WOOGIE > > From FLASH!, 15 November 1938, pg. 23, col. 2: > > The ROLLING JITTERBUGS attempted all sorts of antics while on skates, > including the popular "shag," "lindy hop," and the current sensation, the > "boogie woogie." > >-------------------------------------------------------- >PIG MEAT, BUGGY > > From FLASH!, letters, 1 November 1938, pg. 4, col. 1: > > Please if possible raise the standard of your magazine by eliminating > such words as "pig meat" and other "buggy" material. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >CARTOON CAPTIONS > >FLASH!, 24 January 1938, pg. 19, col. 2: "I'LL SHOW YOU WHO WEAR THE >PANTS AROUND HERE!!" (Wife to husband--ed.) > >FLASH!, 3 May 1938, pg. 35: "BOY! WHAT'A FANNY" (Two children looking >at a woman's rear--ed.) > >-------------------------------------------------------- >HOT-DOG EATING CONTEST? > > Photo caption from FLASH!, 17 January 1938, pg. 12, col. 1: > > JACK PARKER OF PITTSBURGH holds some sort of gustatorial record. He > ate forty-four hot dogs and drank seven glasses of beer at a Pgh. > polticial meeting some few weeks past, and the following day he ate > fifteen more hot dogs and drank five bottles of Pepsi-Cola for a chaser. _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 14 04:19:58 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:19:58 +0800 Subject: ACCENT: Re: Lines Overheard ... In-Reply-To: <2d.10fffb9a.28d3753c@aol.com> Message-ID: At 10:59 AM -0400 9/14/01, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >Could the speaker have possibly meant ACCENT in the sense of 'focus'? That is >to say, the speaker didn't like the direction that it appeared that the >teacher was taking the course in? Lots of people use ACCENT that way. > >In a message dated 8/18/2001 7:15:47 AM, lanehart at ARCHES.UGA.EDU writes: > ><< I guess we haven't made as much progress as we'd like to think. --SL > >>Subject: Lines Overheard in the Starbucks, 08/16/01 >> >> >>"The only reason I am dropping the class is because of the teacher. I > >don't like her accent." > > The only way I can take the above is the phonological one; I can't imagine in being used anywhere I've lived to refer to the content, focus, or direction of the course "she" teaches. Larry From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 14 16:31:12 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:31:12 -0400 Subject: Real McCoy In-Reply-To: <918b72918c11.918c11918b72@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: Does anyone know of any sources of discussion or documentation about the etymology and origin of "the real McCoy," other than sources mentioned in the entry in the Historical Dictionary of Slang? I already have copies of the Peter Tamony files on this expression. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 14 16:31:26 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:31:26 -0400 Subject: Civil War In-Reply-To: <918b72918c11.918c11918b72@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: Does anyone know of any books or articles or dictionaries that discuss the origin of the term "Civil War," in specific reference to the American conflict of 1861-65? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Fri Sep 14 17:00:03 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:00:03 -0400 Subject: Cracker Dictionary, 1830 Message-ID: As a Kentucky boy, I have long heard the story of how Henry Clay was rowed up Salt River as he was distractedly working on an important political speech. From http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/1998/Aug-23-Sun-1998/opinion/8051260.html >>The story is that during his 1832 campaign against Andrew Jackson, Henry Clay hired a boatman to take him up the Ohio River for an important speech in Louisville. The wily fellow, an ardent Jacksonian, rowed Clay up the Salt River instead. Clay missed the speech and lost the election. In their dictionary of word and phrase origins, William and Mary Morris say the story is probably phony -- Clay was no dummy, and the modest Salt River is no Ohio -- but why let a few facts interfere with a good story? Clay came up short, and when he looked for the rogue, the boatman turned up missing. << The 1830 dating of the term, of course, undercuts the Clay story. John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: George Thompson [SMTP:george.thompson at NYU.EDU] > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:35 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Cracker Dictionary, 1830 > > The definitions, in some instances, convey to us of > the north a not very clear idea of the meaning. "Ramsquaddled," for > instance, is said to mean "Rowed up salt river." *** > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 14 05:10:41 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:10:41 +0800 Subject: Real McCoy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Does anyone know of any sources of discussion or documentation about the >etymology and origin of "the real McCoy," other than sources mentioned in >the entry in the Historical Dictionary of Slang? I already have copies >of the Peter Tamony files on this expression. > Fred, does the RHHDAS entry (which I don't have on me) entertain a premise concerning a derivation from a Scottish term for a high quality whisky which was then exported to the US and applied (the term, not the whisky) to "an outstanding boxer whose name happened to be McCoy"? So Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, at least. Partridge is involved in this story, so there may be the usual emphasis on the Fable part. larry From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Sep 14 17:48:03 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:48:03 EDT Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? Message-ID: In a message dated 9/14/2001 12:17:44 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << >>"The only reason I am dropping the class is because of the teacher. I > >don't like her accent." > > The only way I can take the above is the phonological one; I can't imagine in being used anywhere I've lived to refer to the content, focus, or direction of the course "she" teaches. Larry >> Think again, Larry, about what people do in actual conversations! See NEW OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH, s.v. ACCENT, "3. a special or particular emphasis: _the accent is on participation_." I don't have time to do a web search, but I'd guess one could find examples of this pretty easily. I will grant you that general ACCENT is not used this way without some explicitly defining context. However, as I'm sure Larry knows (!), a snippet of conversation divorced from the rest of the conversation may well divorce the snippet from the explicitly defining context that was implicitly understood by the participants in the conversation. I'd even go farther and suggest that, even if this sense of ACCENT had not been explicitly defined by the parties in the conversation, the speaker could well have assumed that it was implicit (if she believed that her friend would not believe that mere pronunciation would drive her away from a class). I'd even go farther than that and suggest that, given that the above definition of ACCENT is common to native speakers of American English, the speaker was at worst making a very low-level performance error such as is frequently common in actual conversation, i.e., using a word in one of its "marked" senses in a context where it would be most likely to be construed in its unmarked or default sense. Finally, I'm not totally sure that for anyone other than a linguist ACCENT is so strongly associated with 'pronunciation' as its default meaning. From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Fri Sep 14 17:59:03 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:59:03 +0100 Subject: Real McCoy Message-ID: There is a longish (eight-page) essay on this term by Partridge in _From Sanskrit to Brazil_ (1952), reprinted in _Eric Partridge in His Own Words_ (1980). A quick glance sugegsts that he seems to cover most of the theories (boxer, bootlegger, Scotch whisky, etc.) , and differentiates between UK Mackay and US McCoy. If anyone is sufficiently interested, I'd be happy to scan it in and post it. Jonathon Green From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 14 06:03:12 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:03:12 +0800 Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:48 PM -0400 9/14/01, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >In a message dated 9/14/2001 12:17:44 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > ><< >>"The only reason I am dropping the class is because of the teacher. I >> >don't like her accent." >> > >The only way I can take the above is the phonological one; I can't >imagine in being used anywhere I've lived to refer to the content, >focus, or direction of the course "she" teaches. > >Larry > >> > >Think again, Larry, about what people do in actual conversations! > >See NEW OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH, s.v. ACCENT, "3. a special or >particular emphasis: _the accent is on participation_." > >I don't have time to do a web search, but I'd guess one could find examples >of this pretty easily. I will grant you that general ACCENT is not used this >way without some explicitly defining context. However, as I'm sure Larry >knows (!), a snippet of conversation divorced from the rest of the >conversation may well divorce the snippet from the explicitly defining >context that was implicitly understood by the participants in the >conversation. > True enough, but what I was looking at (out of the full discourse context, to be sure) was not just "accent" but "I don't like her accent", which I think for most speakers represents quite a different environment than "the accent is on participation". larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 14 06:35:00 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:35:00 +0800 Subject: Real McCoy In-Reply-To: <001101c13d46$f139b2e0$023264c0@green> Message-ID: At 6:59 PM +0100 9/14/01, Jonathon Green wrote: >There is a longish (eight-page) essay on this term by Partridge in _From >Sanskrit to Brazil_ (1952), reprinted in _Eric Partridge in His Own Words_ >(1980). A quick glance sugegsts that he seems to cover most of the theories >(boxer, bootlegger, Scotch whisky, etc.) , and differentiates between UK >Mackay and US McCoy. If anyone is sufficiently interested, I'd be happy to >scan it in and post it. > That's the one cited in Brewer, and also (equally approvingly) in Funk's _Heavens to Betsy!_; Partridge was apparently sufficiently persuasive therein that he won over Mitford Mathews, who had previously published (in _A Dictionary of Americanisms_, 1946) an entertaining story according to which the origin involved non-cut heroin brought in from the island of Macao, which set the standard for "dope addicts" who came to particularly value "the real Macao". (Good ol' Ben Trovato strikes again.) There's probably a version somewhere that features bird-fanciers in search of the real macaw. larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Sep 14 21:12:21 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:12:21 -0700 Subject: lame denials Message-ID: has anyone studied denials of intent in speech? i have in mind, specifically, implausible disavowals of import, as in the following three examples (of rather different types): 1. speaker refers to rep. barney frank of massachusetts as "barney fag", with evident pleasure in the childishly insulting deformation of the name, but later denies intent to insult by claiming it was a slip of the tongue. 2. speaker refers to a female colleague of japanese descent as a "slant-eyed cunt", but later denies intent to insult by maintaining that he sometimes just talks nonsense. 3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to "secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". i do *not* have in mind ordinary speech errors, or misspeakings that arise from cluelessness, or even speech actually designed to accommodate plausible denial (like a MUCK FICHIGAN bumper sticker), but things whose intent and import can be discerned by any reasonable hearer, yet are disavowed after the fact. and my question was whether such lame denials have been studied - or, at least, collected and classified - by anyone. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From emckean at ENTERACT.COM Fri Sep 14 21:21:19 2001 From: emckean at ENTERACT.COM (emckean at ENTERACT.COM) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:21:19 -0500 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: <200109142112.f8ELCLM23228@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: I would be very very interested in publishing an article on this topic in VERBATIM, if anyone needs that incentive to begin research. .. Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > has anyone studied denials of intent in speech? i have in mind, > specifically, implausible disavowals of import, as in the following > three examples (of rather different types): > > 1. speaker refers to rep. barney frank of massachusetts as "barney > fag", with evident pleasure in the childishly insulting deformation of > the name, but later denies intent to insult by claiming it was a slip > of the tongue. > > 2. speaker refers to a female colleague of japanese descent as a > "slant-eyed cunt", but later denies intent to insult by maintaining > that he sometimes just talks nonsense. > > 3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, > feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the > atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to > "secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful > intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". > > i do *not* have in mind ordinary speech errors, or misspeakings that > arise from cluelessness, or even speech actually designed to > accommodate plausible denial (like a MUCK FICHIGAN bumper sticker), > but things whose intent and import can be discerned by any reasonable > hearer, yet are disavowed after the fact. > > and my question was whether such lame denials have been studied - or, > at least, collected and classified - by anyone. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > From Vocabula at AOL.COM Fri Sep 14 21:54:51 2001 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:54:51 EDT Subject: lame denials Message-ID: I, too, would be keenly interested in considering such an article for publication. Robert Hartwell Fiske The Vocabula Review http://www.vocabula.com ___________________________________________________ To subscribe to The Vocabula Review: http://www.vocabula.com/VRsubscribe.htm TVR Forum: http://members.boardhost.com/Vocabula/ Do you enjoy reading The Vocabula Review each month? If so, please help ensure that you can by contributing now: http://www.vocabula.com/VRgenerosity.htm ___________________________________________________ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 United States Tel: (781) 861-1515 From garethb2 at STREETTECH.COM Fri Sep 14 21:35:04 2001 From: garethb2 at STREETTECH.COM (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:35:04 -0400 Subject: lame denials Message-ID: I wrote a piece on doublespeak years ago that's still available online: http://www.stim.com/Stim-x/8.2/doublespeak/doublespeak-08.2.html Some of the writing makes me wince (I'd like to think I've improved since then), but I think most of it holds up well enough to point out here. [BTW: This piece was written for STIM, a webzine for Prodigy I wrote for in the mid '90s.] -----Original Message----- From: emckean at ENTERACT.COM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Date: Friday, September 14, 2001 5:31 PM Subject: Re: lame denials >I would be very very interested in publishing an article on this topic in >VERBATIM, if anyone needs that incentive to begin research. .. > >Erin McKean >editor at verbatimmag.com > > > >On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > >> has anyone studied denials of intent in speech? i have in mind, >> specifically, implausible disavowals of import, as in the following >> three examples (of rather different types): >> >> 1. speaker refers to rep. barney frank of massachusetts as "barney >> fag", with evident pleasure in the childishly insulting deformation of >> the name, but later denies intent to insult by claiming it was a slip >> of the tongue. >> >> 2. speaker refers to a female colleague of japanese descent as a >> "slant-eyed cunt", but later denies intent to insult by maintaining >> that he sometimes just talks nonsense. >> >> 3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, >> feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the >> atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to >> "secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful >> intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". >> >> i do *not* have in mind ordinary speech errors, or misspeakings that >> arise from cluelessness, or even speech actually designed to >> accommodate plausible denial (like a MUCK FICHIGAN bumper sticker), >> but things whose intent and import can be discerned by any reasonable >> hearer, yet are disavowed after the fact. >> >> and my question was whether such lame denials have been studied - or, >> at least, collected and classified - by anyone. >> >> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) >> From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 14 23:15:36 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:15:36 -0400 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: <200109142112.f8ELCLM23228@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: arnold, Have you checked the legal literature (which is rife with comment on "intent," including verbal)? Maybe Ron or Bethany will jump in. dInIs >has anyone studied denials of intent in speech? i have in mind, >specifically, implausible disavowals of import, as in the following >three examples (of rather different types): > >1. speaker refers to rep. barney frank of massachusetts as "barney >fag", with evident pleasure in the childishly insulting deformation of >the name, but later denies intent to insult by claiming it was a slip >of the tongue. > >2. speaker refers to a female colleague of japanese descent as a >"slant-eyed cunt", but later denies intent to insult by maintaining >that he sometimes just talks nonsense. > >3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, >feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the >atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to >"secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful >intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". > >i do *not* have in mind ordinary speech errors, or misspeakings that >arise from cluelessness, or even speech actually designed to >accommodate plausible denial (like a MUCK FICHIGAN bumper sticker), >but things whose intent and import can be discerned by any reasonable >hearer, yet are disavowed after the fact. > >and my question was whether such lame denials have been studied - or, >at least, collected and classified - by anyone. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Sep 14 23:45:27 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:45:27 -0400 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: <200109142112.f8ELCLM23228@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: arnold zwicky writes: >3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, >feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the >atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to >"secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful >intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". A friend wrote me that NYT & WP were reporting that Jerry Falwell & Pat Robertson had concurred in these just these opinions on the latter's "700 Club" (radio? or tv?) but I didn't hear that either had issued denials, lame or otherwise! A. Murie From douglas at NB.NET Sat Sep 15 00:45:08 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:45:08 -0400 Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >True enough, but what I was looking at (out of the full discourse >context, to be sure) was not just "accent" but "I don't like her >accent", which I think for most speakers represents quite a different >environment than "the accent is on participation". Certainly the quotation as read would seem to refer to "accent" in sense #3 in the AHD4: <<3. A characteristic pronunciation, especially: a. One determined by the regional or social background of the speaker. b. One determined by the phonetic habits of the speaker's native language carried over to his or her use of another language.>> It is not so clear (to me) whether it refers to (a) or to (b). When I was in college, I heard many complaints from classmates about the instructors' "accents", and I don't remember a case where the reference was to social or political implications: the complaint generally was simply that a "strong" Indian/Russian/Filipino/whatever "accent" made the lecture/discussion partially incomprehensible. In some cases, I think "accent" subsumes grammatical peculiarities along with "foreign" pronunciations, in this sort of casual usage. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 15 02:18:57 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:18:57 EDT Subject: Material Witness Warrant Message-ID: MATERIAL WITNESS WARRANT A Material Witness Warrant was issued today. This is not in the OED, which has revised "m." -------------------------------------------------------- OED An OED update is attached below. At the very end of this message, it's said to check out www.askoxford.com. I did. From http://wwww.askoxford.com/worldofwords/oed/surgeon/newmaterial/ SIMON WINCHESTER: So what is the answer? Why "Big," why "Apple"? JOHN SIMPSON: I believe that various jazz venues around America were known as "apples" and New York was "The Big Apple" because it was a central one. (John Simpson must be tortured for this. Maybe he can come to New York right now and watch a one-hour ESPN SportsCenter, or an interview with Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton--ed.) -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: OEDonline Subject: OED Online Quarterly Update Announcement Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:22:55 +0100 (BST) Size: 3700 URL: From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Sep 15 02:36:55 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:36:55 EDT Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? Message-ID: In a message dated 9/14/2001 2:01:57 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << True enough, but what I was looking at (out of the full discourse context, to be sure) was not just "accent" but "I don't like her accent", which I think for most speakers represents quite a different environment than "the accent is on participation". >> Well, yes, of course it does--as I said in my last posting. The point is not what it is most likely to have meant to an eavesdropper but what it COULD have meant within the framework of the conversation. Larry's earlier posting seemed to be saying that ACCENT in the sense of 'dialect' or 'pronunciation' was the ONLY thing that I DON'T LIKE HER ACCENT could mean. I don't see how that could be true. Possibly it could be that ACCENT in my Midwestern dialect has a slightly different weighting for unmodified ACCENT than it does in Larry's Eastern dialect, but I can't imagine that, even in New York, ACCENT 'pronunciation' is the ONLY thing that I DON'T LIKE HER ACCENT could mean to the participants in a conversation. Doug Wilson's suggestion that the student might have been reacting to the difficulties of understanding a foreign accent strikes me as pragmatically very plausible--a reading that neither I nor Larry (nor the original poster) thought of. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 14 14:47:48 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:47:48 +0800 Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? In-Reply-To: <131.195ec12.28d418c7@aol.com> Message-ID: At 10:36 PM -0400 9/14/01, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >Doug Wilson's suggestion that the student might have been reacting to the >difficulties of understanding a foreign accent strikes me as pragmatically >very plausible--a reading that neither I nor Larry (nor the original poster) >thought of. I agree completely that Doug's reading is plausible, but speaking for myself, that WAS within the range of meanings I had in mind; we get comments like that from our students (yes, even at Yale) about non-native instructors and TAs. "I don't like her accent" could express a distaste for, or a complaint against the difficulty or 'foreignness' of, any way of pronouncing English other than the student's own. I still don't get the "content" reading. larry From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Sep 15 04:44:14 2001 From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:44:14 -0500 Subject: Civil War Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 15 11:04:51 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:04:51 EDT Subject: Hollyweed Message-ID: HOLLYWEED "Hollyweed" (for "Hollywood") came up on some net surfing today. It's not in Jonathan Green's CDS or the HDAS. -------------------------------------------------------- "Of the many fabulous coinages of Dr. Seuss," he (Saul Steinmetz--ed.) recalls, "only _grinch_ made it into the common vocabulary, in the transferred sense of 'a spoilsport or killjoy'--and it took 20 years." ---"Screening the novel words of Harry Potter" by Jeff McQuain, the "On Language" column in the NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE, 16 September 2001. "Nerd." From Dr. Seuss. Made it into the vocabulary almost immediately. Any lexicographer would be able to point this out. YOU write a letter to the editor and correct it. They didn't believe me recently when I walked over a 1959 ad for "personal computer." The "On Language" column, in particular, wouldn't spell a dead man's name correctly, cite his words correctly, correct a quote of mine, or even talk to me about it. No ADS members would help on my behalf. It took the New York Times four years to even correct Barry "Popick." And even that--my NAME!--involved an extended bit of trickery on the Times's Abuzz network to get right. I've had it. From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Sep 15 13:14:32 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:14:32 -0400 Subject: FW: lame denials Message-ID: Arnold Z's comment (cc'd below) reminded me of the attacks on talk radio hosts like Rush Limbaugh in the wake of the Oklahoma City bombing. As in that case, here some nearsighted individuals, out of their hatred or anger, look to place blame in mistaken places. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of sagehen Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:45 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: lame denials arnold zwicky writes: >3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, >feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the >atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to >"secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful >intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Sep 15 14:00:52 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:00:52 -0400 Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010914202643.00a54a00@nb.net> Message-ID: Remember too the research which shows that undergraduates rated a native speaker of Amnerican Englisbh (with outward Asian identity) as more difficult to understand than other native speakers of the same variety. We must always remember that the ear its attached to all of the brain - not just the part that converts signals to phonemes, then to morphemes, etc... . dInIs PS: Jessica Williams' research. University of Illinois Chicago? I can't recall. >>True enough, but what I was looking at (out of the full discourse >>context, to be sure) was not just "accent" but "I don't like her >>accent", which I think for most speakers represents quite a different >>environment than "the accent is on participation". > >Certainly the quotation as read would seem to refer to "accent" in sense #3 >in the AHD4: > ><<3. A characteristic pronunciation, especially: a. One determined by the >regional or social background of the speaker. b. One determined by the >phonetic habits of the speaker's native language carried over to his or her >use of another language.>> > >It is not so clear (to me) whether it refers to (a) or to (b). > >When I was in college, I heard many complaints from classmates about the >instructors' "accents", and I don't remember a case where the reference was >to social or political implications: the complaint generally was simply >that a "strong" Indian/Russian/Filipino/whatever "accent" made the >lecture/discussion partially incomprehensible. In some cases, I think >"accent" subsumes grammatical peculiarities along with "foreign" >pronunciations, in this sort of casual usage. > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Sep 15 14:26:58 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:26:58 -0400 Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One would grant Ron that accent has several non-pronuciation senses, and one would certainly grant that a careful investigation of discourses will turn up multiplicities of meaning not seen out of context. But I would also argue that these meanings here are all rather "marked," at least in the limited context given (althoujgh I also agree with Ron that a "markedness slip" - we'll now hear no doubt that Ron and I are the first to use that heady phrase - could have occurred). My main point here, however, is to note that from hours and hours (and hours) of our folk linguistic recordings (with full contexts, many reported on concerning just this topic in Niedzielski and Preston 1999, Folk LInguistics, Mouton de Gruyter) we do indeed find that "pronunciation" is the primary sense of "accent" for nonlinguists (although expansion of this to include other aspects of language - lexicon, grammar) is also common. dInIs >In a message dated 9/14/2001 12:17:44 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > ><< >>"The only reason I am dropping the class is because of the teacher. I >> >don't like her accent." >> > >The only way I can take the above is the phonological one; I can't >imagine in being used anywhere I've lived to refer to the content, >focus, or direction of the course "she" teaches. > >Larry > >> > >Think again, Larry, about what people do in actual conversations! > >See NEW OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH, s.v. ACCENT, "3. a special or >particular emphasis: _the accent is on participation_." > >I don't have time to do a web search, but I'd guess one could find examples >of this pretty easily. I will grant you that general ACCENT is not used this >way without some explicitly defining context. However, as I'm sure Larry >knows (!), a snippet of conversation divorced from the rest of the >conversation may well divorce the snippet from the explicitly defining >context that was implicitly understood by the participants in the >conversation. > >I'd even go farther and suggest that, even if this sense of ACCENT had not >been explicitly defined by the parties in the conversation, the speaker could >well have assumed that it was implicit (if she believed that her friend would >not believe that mere pronunciation would drive her away from a class). > >I'd even go farther than that and suggest that, given that the above >definition of ACCENT is common to native speakers of American English, the >speaker was at worst making a very low-level performance error such as is >frequently common in actual conversation, i.e., using a word in one of its >"marked" senses in a context where it would be most likely to be construed in >its unmarked or default sense. > >Finally, I'm not totally sure that for anyone other than a linguist ACCENT is >so strongly associated with 'pronunciation' as its default meaning. -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From douglas at NB.NET Sat Sep 15 14:19:44 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:19:44 -0400 Subject: Hollyweed In-Reply-To: <33.1ae305e5.28d48fd3@aol.com> Message-ID: > "Nerd." > From Dr. Seuss. Made it into the vocabulary almost immediately. Any > lexicographer would be able to point this out. A more balanced discussion appears in AHD4: http://www.bartleby.com/61/32/N0063200.html The word could have been taken from among the MANY Seuss nonsense-coinages, or it could have been someone-else's nonsense-coinage. I would tentatively prefer the latter explanation, since there are so many someone-elses. What about Mortimer Snerd? Whence came his surname? And what about "Mad" magazine's favorite surname, "Furd"? -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Sep 15 14:29:02 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:29:02 -0400 Subject: Hollyweed In-Reply-To: <33.1ae305e5.28d48fd3@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > "Nerd." > From Dr. Seuss. Made it into the vocabulary almost immediately. > Any lexicographer would be able to point this out. > YOU write a letter to the editor and correct it. > I've had it. Actually, in my opinion, it's likely that Dr. Seuss did not coin "nerd." Merriam-Webster has a 1951 citation in its files indicating the word was already current by that year and making no reference to Seuss (I have seen the citation, but don't have it handy, perhaps Joanne Despres could post it). Given the facts that the Seuss usage was 1950 and that the Seuss usage may be a coincidental occurrence, I would surmise that there was a slang word "nerd" not originating with Seuss and going back at least to the late 1940s. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From douglas at NB.NET Sat Sep 15 14:58:16 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:58:16 -0400 Subject: Does not compute Message-ID: The odd 'ergative' declaration "[Expression X] does not compute" (spoken by a computer) must have appeared in some old "Star Trek" program or some old science-fiction movie, I guess. I suppose it means roughly "[Expression X] cannot be parsed" or "[Expression X] is invalid". It is now used like "... doesn't make sense" or so, I think. Is there any information on the origin of this clumsy declaration? It was my unsupported casual impression, ca. 1970 IIRC, that this was an alteration of "[Operator/variable X] does not commute". As I recall, operators which correspond to simultaneously measurable observables in quantum mechanics must commute ... or something like that. And in classical dynamics, isn't it sometimes important to determine whether something-or-other commutes with the Hamiltonian? I suppose this sense of "commute" is not instantly familiar to the average citizen, but it might very well have been familiar to an SF-movie technical adviser (physics and SF nerd) or to an SF author/editor, back in the day. [This came up in a recent conversation about 'ergative' constructions such as "Campbell's Chunky Soup eats like a meal." (Sorry if I'm taking undue liberties in my use of 'ergative'.)] -- Doug Wilson From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Sep 15 15:19:59 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:19:59 EDT Subject: markedness slips are showing Message-ID: In a message dated 9/15/2001 10:18:34 AM, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: << One would grant Ron that accent has several non-pronuciation senses, and one would certainly grant that a careful investigation of discourses will turn up multiplicities of meaning not seen out of context. But I would also argue that these meanings here are all rather "marked," at least in the limited context given (althoujgh I also agree with Ron that a "markedness slip" - we'll now hear no doubt that Ron and I are the first to use that heady phrase - could have occurred). My main point here, however, is to note that from hours and hours (and hours) of our folk linguistic recordings (with full contexts, many reported on concerning just this topic in Niedzielski and Preston 1999, Folk LInguistics, Mouton de Gruyter) we do indeed find that "pronunciation" is the primary sense of "accent" for nonlinguists (although expansion of this to include other aspects of language - lexicon, grammar) is also common. dInIs >> Sure! The difference between a default reading and a nondefault reading is that the default reading is the one that most often occurs. Duh! The point is that in conversation--when the speaker feels certain that the hearer is going to interpret what the speaker says as one of the nondefault readings--then a nondefault reading may well be (or even has to be) the one intended. For example: Speaker A: I really like it that she is accenting the course towards contemporary history. Speaker B: Well, I'm dropping the course because *I* just don't like her accent. Or what if Speaker A and Speaker B both have heard the instructor speak and both know that the instructor has no noticeable pronunciational differences between her speech and the speech of Speakers A and B? How can Larry ("I still don't get the 'content' reading") Horn--who teaches courses in pragmatics--eliminate potential contexts from consideration in determining the possible range of meanings of the utterance in question? These aren't far-fetched examples, they are typical of what people do in real conversations. Maybe a different example will help. Take the noun IRON. As a count noun, IRON would seem to have the default meaning 'appliance used to press clothing'. In isolation, then, in a sentence such as She hit her sister on the head with the iron IRON would have the default reading 'appliance used to press clothing'. But IRON also can refer to a golf club, though this usage is normally combined with a number, as in FOUR IRON. However, it is fairly easy to construct contexts in which She hit her sister on the head with the iron. Would unambiguously refer to a golf club--for example, if the incident in question took place on a golf course. From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Sat Sep 15 16:16:07 2001 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:16:07 -0600 Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe that the unmarked, basic meaning of 'accent' in the speech community as a whole is the linguistic one. I'd bet a week's pay that virtually anyone encountering the word in isolation and asked what it meant would say something about speech. In the context under discussion, the fact that the speaker says "her" (instead of "the") makes it pretty clear that that must have been the meaning here too. It may not have been specifically a geographical accent or even a non-English one that was meant -- maybe just a dislike of the general way the teacher spoke that for some reason grated on the student (who knows what personal associations might be involved here). Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 1533 Early Drive Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 3K1 Canada > On Friday, September 14, 2001 11:48 AM, RonButters writes: > In a message dated 9/14/2001 12:17:44 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > See NEW OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH, s.v. ACCENT, "3. a special or > particular emphasis: _the accent is on participation_." > > I don't have time to do a web search, but I'd guess one could > find examples > of this pretty easily. I will grant you that general ACCENT is > not used this > way without some explicitly defining context. However, as I'm sure Larry > knows (!), a snippet of conversation divorced from the rest of the > conversation may well divorce the snippet from the explicitly defining > context that was implicitly understood by the participants in the > conversation. > > I'd even go farther and suggest that, even if this sense of ACCENT had not > been explicitly defined by the parties in the conversation, the > speaker could > well have assumed that it was implicit (if she believed that her > friend would > not believe that mere pronunciation would drive her away from a class). > > I'd even go farther than that and suggest that, given that the above > definition of ACCENT is common to native speakers of American English, the > speaker was at worst making a very low-level performance error such as is > frequently common in actual conversation, i.e., using a word in > one of its > "marked" senses in a context where it would be most likely to be > construed in > its unmarked or default sense. > > Finally, I'm not totally sure that for anyone other than a > linguist ACCENT is > so strongly associated with 'pronunciation' as its default meaning. > From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Sep 15 16:43:09 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:43:09 EDT Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? Message-ID: In a message dated 9/15/01 12:26:09 PM, vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM writes: << In the context under discussion, the fact that the speaker says "her" (instead of "the") makes it pretty clear that that must have been the meaning here too. >> Well, see my slip-is-showing examples before you say "must"; better to say, "... makes it pretty clear that THE MOST LIKELY meaning here IS 'PRONUNCIATION'." Which is all that I have been trying to say all along. From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Sep 15 16:52:38 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:52:38 -0400 Subject: Does not compute In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010915102827.00b229f0@nb.net>; from douglas@NB.NET on Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 10:58:16AM -0400 Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 10:58:16AM -0400, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > The odd 'ergative' declaration "[Expression X] does not compute" (spoken by > a computer) must have appeared in some old "Star Trek" program or some old > science-fiction movie, I guess. I suppose it means roughly "[Expression X] > cannot be parsed" or "[Expression X] is invalid". It is now used like "... > doesn't make sense" or so, I think. > > Is there any information on the origin of this clumsy declaration? The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang says that it was introduced as a catchphrase by the television show _My Living Doll_ in 1964. Jesse Sheidlower OED From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Sep 15 18:01:18 2001 From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:01:18 -0400 Subject: Does not compute Message-ID: I believe it was also used on Irwin Allen's "Lost in Space" (1965), along with "Affirmative!," "Warning! Warning!," and of course, "Danger, Will Robinson." Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 10:58:16AM -0400, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > The odd 'ergative' declaration "[Expression X] does not compute" (spoken by > > a computer) must have appeared in some old "Star Trek" program or some old > > science-fiction movie, I guess. I suppose it means roughly "[Expression X] > > cannot be parsed" or "[Expression X] is invalid". It is now used like "... > > doesn't make sense" or so, I think. > > > > Is there any information on the origin of this clumsy declaration? > > The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang says that > it was introduced as a catchphrase by the television show _My Living > Doll_ in 1964. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Sep 15 18:29:15 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:29:15 EDT Subject: Civil War Message-ID: In a message dated 09/14/2001 12:41:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: > Does anyone know of any books or articles or dictionaries that discuss the > origin of the term "Civil War," in specific reference to the American > conflict of 1861-65? I have a copy of the _Annual Cyclopaedia of the year 1862_ (New York: D. Appleton & Company, 1863, no ISBN). A brief, less-than-thorough thumbing through this book produced innumerable references to "the war", "this war", and "the present war." There are also several citations for "insurrection" and "rebellion", e.g. (page 294) a letter from Secretary of State Seward to the Senate, dated December 19, 1861, contains "From the beginning of the insurrection..." and page 295 a resolution offered by Senator Waltman T. Willey of Virginia, also on December 19, 1861, begins "Resolved, That the existing war, forced upon the county by the instagotors of the rebellion without justifiable cause or provocation..." However, I found the following: page 277, article on "Congress, U.S." on December 4, 1861, in the House of Representatives, William S. Holman of Indiana quoted a resolution of July 22, 1861 introduced by John J. Crittenden of Kentucky which included the following words "That the present deplorable civil war has been forced upon the country by the disunionists of the Southern States now in revolt against the consititutional Government..." page 270, article on "Congress, Confederate", Senator Lewis T. Wigfall of Texas is quoted (apparently in paraphrase) as saying "the gentleman was as much mistaken as Abraham Lincoln or William H. Seward if he thought this was a revolution---that we were subjects fighting against an established Government. If we were we would be entitled to the term "rebels." This is no civil war. It is a war of some sovereign States against other States. There was civil war in Kentucky, where citizens of the same State were at war against one another." Page 726 article "Public Documents" Message of President Lincoln at the third session of the Thirty-seventh Contress, December 1, 1862 includes the following "The civil war which has so radically changed, for the moment, the occupations and habits of the American people" and "A civil war occurring in a country where foreigners reside and carry on trade under treaty stipulations is necessarily frruitful of complaints of the violation of neutral rights." and (page 727) "The Territories of the United States, with unimportant exceptions, have remained undisturbed by the civil war". - Jim Landau From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Sep 15 19:43:28 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:43:28 -0400 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/14/01 19:45, "sagehen" wrote: > arnold zwicky writes: >> 3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, >> feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the >> atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to >> "secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful >> intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". > > A friend wrote me that NYT & WP were reporting that Jerry Falwell & Pat > Robertson had concurred in these just these opinions on the latter's "700 > Club" (radio? or tv?) but I didn't hear that either had issued denials, > lame or otherwise! Those denials are in today's paper. I can't find it in the online version, but today's New York Times, page A15, right two columns: "Mr. Falwell released a statement yesterday on the controversy, saying, 'Despite the impression some may have from news reports today, I hold no one other than the terrorists and the people and nations who have enabled and harbored them responsible for Tuesday's attacks on this nation.' 'I sincerely regret that the comments I made during a long theological discussion on a Christian television program yesterday were taken out of their context and reported and that my thoughts--reduced to sound bites--have detracted from the spirit of this day of mourning.'" Robertson had a similar, but shorter denial. Part of what Falwell said: "The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize American, I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Sep 15 08:00:17 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:00:17 +0800 Subject: Does not compute In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010915102827.00b229f0@nb.net> Message-ID: >... >[This came up in a recent conversation about 'ergative' constructions such >as "Campbell's Chunky Soup eats like a meal." (Sorry if I'm taking undue >liberties in my use of 'ergative'.)] > >-- Doug Wilson Well, in fact, without making too fine a point on it, yes, there are some liberties taken here; how undue depends on the theory. For most who have worried about them, what you call ergative constructions (and are more generally called unaccusatives) are ultimately distinct from, although on some level (especially in sharing a "patient subject") related to, the "middles" exemplified by "the soup that eats like a meal" (the actual phrase used in the Cambpell ads). The former (e.g. "The boat sank", "The door closed", "The ice melted", "The building exploded") do not imply the existence of an agent responsible for the event in question, although as in each of these cases, the event may indeed have been caused either by an agent or a force of nature. The latter ("This bread slices easily", "He don't scare", "Shakespeare translates with difficulty", "The car is selling like hotcakes") do have implicit agents, although typically these cannot be directly expressed the way passive agents can. Middles also often sound funny if they're not modified with an adverb (including negation), while unaccusatives/ergatives don't need any modification. (Yes, you can say "The car sold/drives", but it sounds funny unless there's a contrastive context and intonation, neither of which is necessary for "The boat sank". And "Campbell's Chunky Soup eats" sounds like a failed attempt at an insult.) larry From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Sep 15 20:23:54 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:23:54 -0400 Subject: lame denials (clarification) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I see from Grant Barrett's post that I need to proofread better. I certainly DIDN'T mean "these just opinions." Falwell's disingenuous retraction is ridiculous. He's saying, in effect, he doesn't really mean it, it's just part of his doctrine. I'm happy to say I would qualify for most of his opprobrium, but feel neither more nor less responsible than any other citizen of this privileged country for Tuesday's horror. > wrote: >> A friend wrote me that NYT & WP were reporting that Jerry Falwell & Pat >> Robertson had concurred in these just these opinions on the latter's "700 >> Club" (radio? or tv?) but I didn't hear that either had issued denials, >> lame or otherwise! >...Falwell said...... "I really believe that the pagans, >and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who >are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People >for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize American, I >point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" A. Murie -- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 15 20:32:07 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:32:07 EDT Subject: Pancaking Message-ID: From the LOS ANGELES TIMES, 12 September 2001, pg. A4: 'The technical term is progressive collapse--the slang term is pancaking," said Ron Klemencic, president of Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire, the Seattle firm that engineered the World Trade Center. "What basically happens is that one floor falls on top of the floors below it, and with one floor falling on top of another there's no way to stop it." From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Sat Sep 15 23:06:13 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:06:13 -0400 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 03:43 PM 9/15/01 -0400, you wrote: >On 9/14/01 19:45, "sagehen" wrote: > > > arnold zwicky writes: > >> 3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, > >> feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the > >> atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to > >> "secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful > >> intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". > > > > A friend wrote me that NYT & WP were reporting that Jerry Falwell & Pat > > Robertson had concurred in these just these opinions on the latter's "700 > > Club" (radio? or tv?) but I didn't hear that either had issued denials, > > lame or otherwise! > >Those denials are in today's paper. I can't find it in the online version, >but today's New York Times, page A15, right two columns: > >"Mr. Falwell released a statement yesterday on the controversy, saying, >'Despite the impression some may have from news reports today, I hold no one >other than the terrorists and the people and nations who have enabled and >harbored them responsible for Tuesday's attacks on this nation.' > >'I sincerely regret that the comments I made during a long theological >discussion on a Christian television program yesterday were taken out of >their context and reported and that my thoughts--reduced to sound >bites--have detracted from the spirit of this day of mourning.'" > >Robertson had a similar, but shorter denial. > >Part of what Falwell said: "The abortionists have got to bear some burden >for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million >little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, >and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who >are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People >for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize American, I >point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" > >-- > >Grant Barrett >gbarrett at worldnewyork.org >http://www.worldnewyork.org/ E. L. Doctorow, on NPR this morning, had it right: He said Falwell is no different from the perpetrators of this horrible week when he justifies the murder of thousands. _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Sep 15 23:18:35 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 18:18:35 -0500 Subject: "nerd" (1951) in Merriam-Webster files Message-ID: Fred Shapiro today requested Merriam-Webster's Joanne Despres to post the 1951 citation of "nerd": >Actually, in my opinion, it's likely that Dr. Seuss did not coin "nerd." >Merriam-Webster has a 1951 citation in its files indicating the word was >already current by that year and making no reference to Seuss (I have seen >the citation, but don't have it handy, perhaps Joanne Despres could post >it). Given the facts that the Seuss usage was 1950 and that the Seuss >usage may be a coincidental occurrence, I would surmise that there was a >slang word "nerd" not originating with Seuss and going back at least to >the late 1940s. > >Fred Shapiro I checked my files on "nerd" and find the following e-mail from Joanne Despres: >Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 >From: "Joanne M. Despres" >Subject: Re: Wuss & others >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >No, the 1951 citation in our files does not have anything to do with >the Dr. Seuss character; it is the first use of _nerd_ we've been able to >find that applies to any person having the characteristics >described in the definition ("an unstylish, unattractive, or socially >inept person"). The Seuss critter is, however, mentioned in our etymology >as a possible source for the generic term. > >The citation, by the way, comes from Newsweek (October 8, 1951, p. >28) and reads as follows: > >"In Detroit, someone who once would be called a drip or a square is >now, regrettably, a nerd, or in a less severe case, a scurve." > >Joanne Despres >Merriam-Webster From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 15 23:49:09 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:49:09 EDT Subject: Here's How! (1927, 1928) & Here's How Again! (1929) Message-ID: HERE'S HOW! New and Revised Edition By Judge Jr. (Norman Anthony--ed.) The John Day Company, NY 1927, 1928 Could it be possible that I missed this book? I found it while looking up another of Anthony's books. FYI: there was Prohibition at this time. The Apple Jackrabbit...11 Everything But--...12 The White Lily...13 The Dodge Special...14 Little Willie...15 The Mamie Taylor...16 (OED should have this drink--ed.) The White Cargo...17 The Royal Smile...18 The Nose Dive...19 The Magnolia Blossom...20 The Judgette...21 The Grape Vine...22 Mint Fizz...23 The Golden Gate...24 Oh, Henry!...25 Judge, Jr...26 Silver Fizz...27 Silver Stallion...28 The Los Angeles...29 Polo Cocktail...30 The Corn Popper...31 The Mule's Hind Leg...32 The Nevada...33 Cornell Special...34 The Philadelphia Scotchman...35 The French '75...36 The Cubano...37 De Riguer...38 Alexander's Sister...39 Bacardi Punch...40 Bacardi Cocktail...41 The Wop...42 Barbary Coast...43 Brandy Gump...44 The Hurricane...45 The Earthquake...46 The Frankenjack...47 The Swiss Itch...48 Old Reliables...49 The Crow...51 Louisiana Fizz...52 Champagne Cocktail...53 The Lion...54 Whiskey Sour...55 A Hot Toddy...56 The Cowboy...57 An Egg Nog...58 The Dacqueri Cocktail...59 Jack Rose Cocktail...60 Attaboy Cocktail...61 The Mint Julep...62 Pg. 12: _Everything but--_ THIS little drink is christened thusly because it contains everything but the kitchen stove! 1/4 Scotch; 1/4 Gordon water; 1/4 lemon juice; 1/4 orange juice; 1 egg; 1 teaspoonful of Apricot brandy; powdered sugar. Pg. 32: _The Mule's hind leg_ (See archives for Moscow Mule--ed.) THIS title is not an exaggeration--we know--we tried it! 1/5 Gordon water; 1/5 benedictine; 1/5 Applejack; 1/5 Apricot brandy; 1/5 maple syrup. Pg. 47: _The frankenjack_ INVENTED by the two proprietors of a very, very well-known Speakeasy in New York City. (Jack & Charlie's 21?--ed.) 1/3 Gordon water; 1/3 French vermouth; 1/6 apricot brandy; 1/6 Cointreau. -------------------------------------------------------- HERE'S HOW AGAIN! By Judge Jr. The John Day Company, NY 1929 APPLEJACK DRINKS Eve's Apple...13 The Pump...14 The Parachute...15 The Tunney...16 APPLEJACK AND BRANDY DRINKS The Swan Song...17 The Lightning Bug...18 BACARDI DRINKS Southern Honeysuckle...19 The Red Flag...20 The South Sea...21 Leave Me With a Smile...22 BRANDY DRINKS The Upanattem...23 The Yegg...24 The Monte Cristo...25 The Cloven Hoof...26 The Zowie...27 Side Car...28 The Million Dollar Cocktail...29 GIN DRINKS The Kummel Ye Faithful...30 The Bronx Express...31 The Transatlantic Flyer...32 The Gray Dawn...33 The Barney...34 The Ciro...35 The Hooperdooper...36 The Peacherino...37 Peach Dream...38 The Straight Eight...39 The Spearmint...40 The Oliver Twist...41 The Razzberry...42 The Highbrook...43 The Green-eyed Monster...44 GIN-BACARDI DRINKS Palm Beach Cocktail...45 RYE DRINKS The Revolving Door...46 Whiskey Sour...47 Ward Eight...48 The Sunkist...49 The Snake-in-the-grass...50 SCOTCH DRINKS The Prodigal...51 The Thistle...52 Hell's Belles...53 The Beautifier...54 The Black Eye...55 MISCELLANEOUS The Kitchen Stove...56 The Mussolini...57 The Alps...58 The Norman...59 The Sweet Mama...60 Hot Chocolate!...61 The Tomato Cocktail...62 ("SIDECAR" SIDEBAR: I had to request this microfilm twice before I got it--about three hours later. Then, the library closed. I'll be out of NYC, so I can't immediately copy the entries. However, it appears to antedate "Sidecar." John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK has: "The bar's owner, Harry MacElhone, claimed the drink was concocted in 1931 for a customer who always arrived in a motocycle sidecar. But the sidecar appears in several places in Carl Van Vechten's 1931 short story collection, _Parties_." Sidecar supposedly was invented during WWI--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 16 00:31:39 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:31:39 EDT Subject: Flying Tigers magazine (1960s) Message-ID: (ADDENDUM TO LAST POST: OED has "Sidecar" in 1928.) The NYPL gave me just reel two of ANNUAL PICTORIAL BULLETIN, 14TH AIR FORCE ASSOCIATION, FLYING TIGERS. It's an annual. 1962 Pg. 9: A "B.S. Artist" at work. 1963 Pg. 2: ...singing: "We never falter, we never fail, We sober up on wood alcohol..." 1963 Pg. 6: In the upper left, Col. Robert L. "God is My Co-Pilot" Scott, Jr., of the 23rd Fighter Group, one of our earliest and greatest aces, helps S/Sgt. R. Fuller and Sgt. J. Teague load his guns in preparation for Scott's final Jap hunt before leaving for the United States in January, 1943. 1963 Pg. 7: But they also served who acted as "honey-dippers" (left center)--one of the less glamorous occupations in the Far East--and female grain carrier (lower left). 1963 Pg. 13: Milk and Cookie Bar. 1963 Pg. 20: ...soup-and-fish-clad oilman Gene Ledeker (22 BS)(his motto: It taked but little toil--to get a goil--if you strike oil!)... 1964 Pg. 9: ...such platitudes as "You Can't Win 'Em All", "There's One in Every Crowd" and "Even Babe Ruth Struck Out Over 1000 Times." 1964 Pg. 20: ...a card over the bar that reads, "If This Sign is Blurred You Either Need Stronger Glasses or Weaker Drinks"... 1965 Pg. 7: Not to be outdone by these refinements of an ancient civilization, a Pentagon-based masochist offered his own version of the "Chinese Torture treatment, lower left. Captioned "Men of Gen. Chennault's 14th USAF eagerly await chance to buy beer at first ration in China"... 1968 Pg. 10: Next we see, complete with moat, the Imperial Palace in Tokyo, where the first few exotic days and nights were spent (in Tokyo, that is, not the Palace) and, lastly, the grounds around the Chinsanzo Restaurant, where our first Japanese meal together--a Mongolian Barbecue--was voraciously consumed with surprisingly favorable results. From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sat Sep 15 20:29:30 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:29:30 -0400 Subject: What does ACCENT mean in American English? Message-ID: A very interesting discussion. I think more evidence is needed in regard to what is generally understood and more of the context of "I don't like her accent" to determine the intended meaning here. A web search may indeed prove useful in regard to the first point. Perhaps Sonja Lanehart could supply more of the particular context in which the sentence was uttered. I do think it is worthwhile flogging this horse. RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > In a message dated 9/14/2001 12:17:44 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > << >>"The only reason I am dropping the class is because of the teacher. I > > >don't like her accent." > > > > The only way I can take the above is the phonological one; I can't > imagine in being used anywhere I've lived to refer to the content, > focus, or direction of the course "she" teaches. > > Larry > >> > > Think again, Larry, about what people do in actual conversations! > > See NEW OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH, s.v. ACCENT, "3. a special or > particular emphasis: _the accent is on participation_." > > I don't have time to do a web search, but I'd guess one could find examples > of this pretty easily. I will grant you that general ACCENT is not used this > way without some explicitly defining context. However, as I'm sure Larry > knows (!), a snippet of conversation divorced from the rest of the > conversation may well divorce the snippet from the explicitly defining > context that was implicitly understood by the participants in the > conversation. > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 16 01:27:32 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 21:27:32 EDT Subject: Boundarylessness Message-ID: "Boundarylessness." The big story this week was going to be the deapture of General Electric chairman Jack Welch. "Boundarylessness" was a key word at GE. CNN's Lou Dobbs mentioned that this word is not in any dictionary. See "Neutron Jack Exits" in last Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES Week-in-Review, 9 September 2001, pg. 18, col. 1. Other key terms are "fix it, clost it, or sell it" and "creative destruction." From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Sep 15 15:12:26 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:12:26 +0800 Subject: "sleeper cells" (WOTY candidate?) Message-ID: I just heard (Retired?) General Clark, who I remember from the Bosnia war and who is now a CNN military consultant, refer to the existence of "sleeper cells" in the terrorist network. A google search turned up this earlier use in a column at http://www.onlinecolumnist.com/032601.html called "Terrorism's New Malignancy" by John M. Curtis that warned last March rather prophetically, "Entering a bold new age of global terrorism, the U.S. is no longer immune to subversion and infiltration, requiring heightened security and adroit counter-measures": ================= When a suicide bomber blasted a 40-foot long hole in the hull of the U.S.S. guided missile destroyer Cole in the Yemen port of Aden killing 17 seamen, suspicions were raised about a "sleeper cell" being activated in the Arabian peninsula. All CIA reports pointed in the direction of Osama bin Laden. Dismissing this fact makes good public relations, but doesn't acknowledge the reality that most recent terrorism against U.S. interests leads to Kabul. ============= Other cites refer directly to the current attack and the investigation of the perpetrators. I don't know how far back the term goes. There are earlier medical uses of "sleeper cell" (referring to cancer), but I don't know if this is a coincidence. larry From douglas at NB.NET Sun Sep 16 03:38:21 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:38:21 -0400 Subject: "sleeper cells" (WOTY candidate?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think "sleeper cell" means simply a cell of sleepers. "Cell" meaning "small group [of spies/subversives/etc.]" -- back in the day, it was usually "Communist cell", and I think this type of organization was considered characteristic of Communists -- is cited from 1925 in my OED. "Sleeper" = "dormant spy/saboteur" is cited from 1955 in my OED, but I think it might be older. AHD4 gives good definitions. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 16 15:14:57 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:14:57 EDT Subject: Big Terror; Lindy's Cheesecake & Frozen Bananas Message-ID: BIG TERROR There's Big Steel, Big Tobacco, and Big Music. From the web (Seattle Times, 9-14-2001?): Everything reminds us of what happened on Tuesday when Big Terror took on the Big Apple--and almost won. -------------------------------------------------------- LINDY'S CHEESECAKE & FROZEN BANANA I didn't have much of a chance to go through Clementine Paddleford's columns. From THIS WEEK magazine, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 3 October 1948, pg, 46, col. 3: _Lindy's Cheesecake_ 2 1/2 pounds cream cheese 1 3/4 cups sugar 3 tablespoons flour 1 1/2 teaspoons grated orange rind 1 1/2 teaspoons grated lemon rind Pinch of vanilla bean pulp of 1/4 teaspoon vanilla extract 5 eggs 2 egg yolks 1/4 cup heavy cream Combine cream cheese, sugar, flour, grated orange and lemon rind, and vanilla. Add eggs and egg yolks, one at a time, stirring lightly after each addition. Stir in cream. From THIS WEEK, NYHT, 17 October 1948, pg. 47, col. 3: _Frozen bananas_ that's the latest concoction skewered to a stick and chocolate-covered, then frozen and wax-paper-bagged to sell from deep freezers to groceries and drugstores. Distribution to date in Chicago, Minneapolis, St. Paul. -------------------------------------------------------- MISC.: >From THIS WEEK, NYHT, 3 October 1948, pg. 26, col. 2: "There is an old joke, the tag line of which runs as follows: 'That horse ain't blind, he just don't give a darn.'" WINDY CITY: There has been no response from Don Wycliff, the Public Editor of the Chicago Tribune. It's been a month. The Chicago Tribune twice (this year) said that New York Sun editor Charles Anderson Dana coined "Windy City." I have asked ADS members who can write perhaps less passionate letters to write to the Public Editor. Nothing gets corrected. NEW YORK TIMES: I walked in the 1959 "personal computer" citation to the New York Times three weeks ago. The editor then went on vacation, but last Monday morning he e-mailed me that he was back. I didn't see any correction this Sunday (electronic version). It's bad enough that I make no money at all, but when people aren't kind to me and let errors stand, it's more than I can take. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 16 16:15:05 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 12:15:05 EDT Subject: New York Times Corrections Message-ID: I stand corrected! I had searched under "Barry Popik" (my name; I had found the citation in the course of my work) and DATAMATION (the name of the 1959 periodical where I found "personal computer"). Neither term is in the New York Times Correction: An article on Aug. 19 about the origins of the personal computer referred incorrectly to the first use of the term "personal computer" in advertising. A 1968 ad for a Hewlett Oackard desktop calculator was not the first occurrence. The term was used at least as far back as 1959 in an advertisement for the PACE TR-10 transistorized computer made by Electronic Associates, Inc. Amazing! The New York Times actually made a correction! Now how about correcting Charles Gillett's 1995 obituary, which said that Damon Runyon popularized "the Big Apple"? Damon Runyon had never used the term. I had sent my papers to the American Dialect Society member on the newspaper in 1992, and then also to nearly every single editor. How about making the corrections in William Safire's Sept. 2000 column that involves my name and work--my professional reputation? How come there's a quotation about George Thompson's sex life ("Fit to Print") and there's no quotation from the African-American stablehands who gave New York City its nickname? From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Sun Sep 16 19:01:31 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 15:01:31 -0400 Subject: New York Times Corrections In-Reply-To: <131.19bd7bb.28d62a09@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:15 PM 9/16/01 -0400, you wrote: > I stand corrected! > I had searched under "Barry Popik" (my name; I had found the citation > in the course of my work) and DATAMATION (the name of the 1959 periodical > where I found "personal computer"). Neither term is in the New York > Times Correction: > > An article on Aug. 19 about the origins of the personal computer > referred incorrectly to the first use of the term "personal computer" in > advertising. A 1968 ad for a Hewlett Oackard desktop calculator was not > the first occurrence. The term was used at least as far back as 1959 in > an advertisement for the PACE TR-10 transistorized computer made by > Electronic Associates, Inc. > > Amazing! The New York Times actually made a correction! > Now how about correcting Charles Gillett's 1995 obituary, which said > that Damon Runyon popularized "the Big Apple"? > Damon Runyon had never used the term. I had sent my papers to the > American Dialect Society member on the newspaper in 1992, and then also > to nearly every single editor. > How about making the corrections in William Safire's Sept. 2000 column > that involves my name and work--my professional reputation? > How come there's a quotation about George Thompson's sex life ("Fit to > Print") and there's no quotation from the African-American stablehands > who gave New York City its nickname? Here we go again. I seem to recall a promise some time back never to mention Safire's treatment of you again. . . . Could we get back to professional work and drop the personal stuff? _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Sep 16 19:58:07 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 15:58:07 EDT Subject: New York Times Corrections Message-ID: In a message dated 9/16/2001 3:01:52 PM, flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU writes: << Could we get back to professional work and drop the personal stuff? >> AMEN!!!! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 16 22:58:07 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 18:58:07 EDT Subject: New York Times Corrections Message-ID: This is professional stuff. Beverly, Ron, how am I supposed to forget what happened? Why don't you people both forget the World Trade Center? "Amen?" As I said before, if you don't want to hear it anymore, write to ADS member William Safire and ask him for an apology and corrections. Other members of other organizations do stuff like that. Lawyers, for example, have a committee of professional responsibility. Beverly, I'm sorry if you have to read a line or two about in these messages about life in New York City. A few years ago, you couldn't stand to read a line or two that my mother died, or that my father died. Please just delete all my messages. From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Sep 16 23:53:10 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 16:53:10 -0700 Subject: miscidemgenation Message-ID: Read all about George DeCarlo's 2001 coin at http://www.geocities.com/njcivilunion/index.html#definition Benjamin Barrett From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 17 05:51:30 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 01:51:30 EDT Subject: "Being Wanded" (Airport Security) Message-ID: Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta, on the PBS News Hour program, said that tougher airport security measures will include more people "being wanded." You know what that means--taken aside by airport security, with a wand scanning your pockets and such. I haven't seen "wand" recorded as a verb. There are quite a few hits on the usual computer databases. (PERSONAL: Under strict orders from my sister, my trip to Georgia/Armenia/Azerbaijan and then to Iran, which had been scheduled for 6 p.m. Monday, is cancelled. The Iran trip was to have been led of UT-Austin's Denise Schmandt-Besserat, author of ANCIENT PERSIA and HOW WRITING CAME ABOUT. Expect loads of food postings from the NY Herald Tribune instead.) From fodde at UNICA.IT Mon Sep 17 08:27:29 2001 From: fodde at UNICA.IT (Luisanna Fodde) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:27:29 +0200 Subject: YOH IN AFRICAN AMERICAN VERNACULAR ENGLISH Message-ID: I have a query which regards the origins of the exclamation YOH in AAVE, present especially in rap music and spoken language Thanks L. Fodde University of cagliari Italy fodde at unica.it ----- Original Message ----- From: Automatic digest processor To: Recipients of ADS-L digests Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 6:01 AM Subject: ADS-L Digest - 14 Sep 2001 to 15 Sep 2001 (#2001-259) > There are 26 messages totalling 1131 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. Civil War (2) > 2. Hollyweed (3) > 3. FW: lame denials > 4. What does ACCENT mean in American English? (5) > 5. Does not compute (4) > 6. markedness slips are showing > 7. lame denials (2) > 8. lame denials (clarification) > 9. Pancaking > 10. "nerd" (1951) in Merriam-Webster files > 11. Here's How! (1927, 1928) & Here's How Again! (1929) > 12. Flying Tigers magazine (1960s) > 13. Boundarylessness > 14. "sleeper cells" (WOTY candidate?) (2) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:44:14 -0500 > From: Mark Odegard > Subject: Re: Civil War > >
>Does anyone know of any books or articles or dictionaries that
>
> discuss the origin of the term "Civil War," in specific reference
>
> to the American conflict of 1861-65?
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
 
>
Not me. But the term 'civil war' itself would seem almost as old as English itself, and most certainly, considerably older than the late unpleasentness. Certainly, it's the actual English lexical term for such events.
>
 
>
Ask me what a WASP liberal feels when he discovers he has a dead Reb ancestor buried in a mass grave in Nancy/Mill Springs, Kentucky. (Answer: you become respectful).

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:04:51 EDT > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Hollyweed > > HOLLYWEED > > "Hollyweed" (for "Hollywood") came up on some net surfing today. It's not in Jonathan Green's CDS or the HDAS. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > "Of the many fabulous coinages of Dr. Seuss," he (Saul Steinmetz--ed.) recalls, "only _grinch_ made it into the common vocabulary, in the transferred sense of 'a spoilsport or killjoy'--and it took 20 years." > ---"Screening the novel words of Harry Potter" by Jeff McQuain, the "On Language" column in the NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE, 16 September 2001. > > "Nerd." > From Dr. Seuss. Made it into the vocabulary almost immediately. Any lexicographer would be able to point this out. > YOU write a letter to the editor and correct it. They didn't believe me recently when I walked over a 1959 ad for "personal computer." The "On Language" column, in particular, wouldn't spell a dead man's name correctly, cite his words correctly, correct a quote of mine, or even talk to me about it. No ADS members would help on my behalf. It took the New York Times four years to even correct Barry "Popick." And even that--my NAME!--involved an extended bit of trickery on the Times's Abuzz network to get right. > I've had it. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:14:32 -0400 > From: Frank Abate > Subject: FW: lame denials > > Arnold Z's comment (cc'd below) reminded me of the attacks on talk radio > hosts like Rush Limbaugh in the wake of the Oklahoma City bombing. As in > that case, here some nearsighted individuals, out of their hatred or anger, > look to place blame in mistaken places. > > Frank Abate > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of sagehen > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:45 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: lame denials > > > arnold zwicky writes: > >3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, > >feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the > >atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to > >"secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful > >intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:00:52 -0400 > From: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: What does ACCENT mean in American English? > > Remember too the research which shows that undergraduates rated a > native speaker of Amnerican Englisbh (with outward Asian identity) as > more difficult to understand than other native speakers of the same > variety. We must always remember that the ear its attached to all of > the brain - not just the part that converts signals to phonemes, then > to morphemes, etc... . > > dInIs > > PS: Jessica Williams' research. University of Illinois Chicago? I can't recall. > > > > >>True enough, but what I was looking at (out of the full discourse > >>context, to be sure) was not just "accent" but "I don't like her > >>accent", which I think for most speakers represents quite a different > >>environment than "the accent is on participation". > > > >Certainly the quotation as read would seem to refer to "accent" in sense #3 > >in the AHD4: > > > ><<3. A characteristic pronunciation, especially: a. One determined by the > >regional or social background of the speaker. b. One determined by the > >phonetic habits of the speaker's native language carried over to his or her > >use of another language.>> > > > >It is not so clear (to me) whether it refers to (a) or to (b). > > > >When I was in college, I heard many complaints from classmates about the > >instructors' "accents", and I don't remember a case where the reference was > >to social or political implications: the complaint generally was simply > >that a "strong" Indian/Russian/Filipino/whatever "accent" made the > >lecture/discussion partially incomprehensible. In some cases, I think > >"accent" subsumes grammatical peculiarities along with "foreign" > >pronunciations, in this sort of casual usage. > > > >-- Doug Wilson > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Department of Linguistics and Languages > Michigan State University > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA > preston at pilot.msu.edu > Office: (517)353-0740 > Fax: (517)432-2736 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:26:58 -0400 > From: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: What does ACCENT mean in American English? > > One would grant Ron that accent has several non-pronuciation senses, > and one would certainly grant that a careful investigation of > discourses will turn up multiplicities of meaning not seen out of > context. But I would also argue that these meanings here are all > rather "marked," at least in the limited context given (althoujgh I > also agree with Ron that a "markedness slip" - we'll now hear no > doubt that Ron and I are the first to use that heady phrase - could > have occurred). > > My main point here, however, is to note that from hours and hours > (and hours) of our folk linguistic recordings (with full contexts, > many reported on concerning just this topic in Niedzielski and > Preston 1999, Folk LInguistics, Mouton de Gruyter) we do indeed find > that "pronunciation" is the primary sense of "accent" for > nonlinguists (although expansion of this to include other aspects of > language - lexicon, grammar) is also common. > > dInIs > > >In a message dated 9/14/2001 12:17:44 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > ><< >>"The only reason I am dropping the class is because of the teacher. I > >> >don't like her accent." > >> > > >The only way I can take the above is the phonological one; I can't > >imagine in being used anywhere I've lived to refer to the content, > >focus, or direction of the course "she" teaches. > > > >Larry > > >> > > > >Think again, Larry, about what people do in actual conversations! > > > >See NEW OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH, s.v. ACCENT, "3. a special or > >particular emphasis: _the accent is on participation_." > > > >I don't have time to do a web search, but I'd guess one could find examples > >of this pretty easily. I will grant you that general ACCENT is not used this > >way without some explicitly defining context. However, as I'm sure Larry > >knows (!), a snippet of conversation divorced from the rest of the > >conversation may well divorce the snippet from the explicitly defining > >context that was implicitly understood by the participants in the > >conversation. > > > >I'd even go farther and suggest that, even if this sense of ACCENT had not > >been explicitly defined by the parties in the conversation, the speaker could > >well have assumed that it was implicit (if she believed that her friend would > >not believe that mere pronunciation would drive her away from a class). > > > >I'd even go farther than that and suggest that, given that the above > >definition of ACCENT is common to native speakers of American English, the > >speaker was at worst making a very low-level performance error such as is > >frequently common in actual conversation, i.e., using a word in one of its > >"marked" senses in a context where it would be most likely to be construed in > >its unmarked or default sense. > > > >Finally, I'm not totally sure that for anyone other than a linguist ACCENT is > >so strongly associated with 'pronunciation' as its default meaning. > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Department of Linguistics and Languages > Michigan State University > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA > preston at pilot.msu.edu > Office: (517)353-0740 > Fax: (517)432-2736 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:19:44 -0400 > From: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Hollyweed > > > "Nerd." > > From Dr. Seuss. Made it into the vocabulary almost immediately. Any > > lexicographer would be able to point this out. > > A more balanced discussion appears in AHD4: > > http://www.bartleby.com/61/32/N0063200.html > > The word could have been taken from among the MANY Seuss nonsense-coinages, > or it could have been someone-else's nonsense-coinage. I would tentatively > prefer the latter explanation, since there are so many someone-elses. What > about Mortimer Snerd? Whence came his surname? And what about "Mad" > magazine's favorite surname, "Furd"? > > -- Doug Wilson > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:29:02 -0400 > From: Fred Shapiro > Subject: Re: Hollyweed > > On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > > "Nerd." > > From Dr. Seuss. Made it into the vocabulary almost immediately. > > Any lexicographer would be able to point this out. > > YOU write a letter to the editor and correct it. > > > I've had it. > > Actually, in my opinion, it's likely that Dr. Seuss did not coin "nerd." > Merriam-Webster has a 1951 citation in its files indicating the word was > already current by that year and making no reference to Seuss (I have seen > the citation, but don't have it handy, perhaps Joanne Despres could post > it). Given the facts that the Seuss usage was 1950 and that the Seuss > usage may be a coincidental occurrence, I would surmise that there was a > slang word "nerd" not originating with Seuss and going back at least to > the late 1940s. > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:58:16 -0400 > From: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Does not compute > > The odd 'ergative' declaration "[Expression X] does not compute" (spoken by > a computer) must have appeared in some old "Star Trek" program or some old > science-fiction movie, I guess. I suppose it means roughly "[Expression X] > cannot be parsed" or "[Expression X] is invalid". It is now used like "... > doesn't make sense" or so, I think. > > Is there any information on the origin of this clumsy declaration? > > It was my unsupported casual impression, ca. 1970 IIRC, that this was an > alteration of "[Operator/variable X] does not commute". > > As I recall, operators which correspond to simultaneously measurable > observables in quantum mechanics must commute ... or something like that. > And in classical dynamics, isn't it sometimes important to determine > whether something-or-other commutes with the Hamiltonian? I suppose this > sense of "commute" is not instantly familiar to the average citizen, but it > might very well have been familiar to an SF-movie technical adviser > (physics and SF nerd) or to an SF author/editor, back in the day. > > [This came up in a recent conversation about 'ergative' constructions such > as "Campbell's Chunky Soup eats like a meal." (Sorry if I'm taking undue > liberties in my use of 'ergative'.)] > > -- Doug Wilson > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:19:59 EDT > From: RonButters at AOL.COM > Subject: markedness slips are showing > > In a message dated 9/15/2001 10:18:34 AM, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > > << One would grant Ron that accent has several non-pronuciation senses, > and one would certainly grant that a careful investigation of > discourses will turn up multiplicities of meaning not seen out of > context. But I would also argue that these meanings here are all > rather "marked," at least in the limited context given (althoujgh I > also agree with Ron that a "markedness slip" - we'll now hear no > doubt that Ron and I are the first to use that heady phrase - could > have occurred). > > My main point here, however, is to note that from hours and hours > (and hours) of our folk linguistic recordings (with full contexts, > many reported on concerning just this topic in Niedzielski and > Preston 1999, Folk LInguistics, Mouton de Gruyter) we do indeed find > that "pronunciation" is the primary sense of "accent" for > nonlinguists (although expansion of this to include other aspects of > language - lexicon, grammar) is also common. > > dInIs >> > > Sure! The difference between a default reading and a nondefault reading is > that the default reading is the one that most often occurs. Duh! > > The point is that in conversation--when the speaker feels certain that the > hearer is going to interpret what the speaker says as one of the nondefault > readings--then a nondefault reading may well be (or even has to be) the one > intended. For example: > > Speaker A: I really like it that she is accenting the course towards > contemporary history. > Speaker B: Well, I'm dropping the course because *I* just don't like her > accent. > > Or what if Speaker A and Speaker B both have heard the instructor speak and > both know that the instructor has no noticeable pronunciational differences > between her speech and the speech of Speakers A and B? > > How can Larry ("I still don't get the 'content' reading") Horn--who teaches > courses in pragmatics--eliminate potential contexts from consideration in > determining the possible range of meanings of the utterance in question? > These aren't far-fetched examples, they are typical of what people do in real > conversations. > > Maybe a different example will help. Take the noun IRON. As a count noun, > IRON would seem to have the default meaning 'appliance used to press > clothing'. In isolation, then, in a sentence such as > > She hit her sister on the head with the iron > > IRON would have the default reading 'appliance used to press clothing'. > > But IRON also can refer to a golf club, though this usage is normally > combined with a number, as in FOUR IRON. > > However, it is fairly easy to construct contexts in which > > She hit her sister on the head with the iron. > > Would unambiguously refer to a golf club--for example, if the incident in > question took place on a golf course. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:16:07 -0600 > From: Victoria Neufeldt > Subject: Re: What does ACCENT mean in American English? > > I believe that the unmarked, basic meaning of 'accent' in the speech > community as a whole is the linguistic one. I'd bet a week's pay that > virtually anyone encountering the word in isolation and asked what it meant > would say something about speech. In the context under discussion, the fact > that the speaker says "her" (instead of "the") makes it pretty clear that > that must have been the meaning here too. It may not have been > specifically a geographical accent or even a non-English one that was > meant -- maybe just a dislike of the general way the teacher spoke that for > some reason grated on the student (who knows what personal associations > might be involved here). > > Victoria > > Victoria Neufeldt > 1533 Early Drive > Saskatoon, Sask. > S7H 3K1 > Canada > > > > > On Friday, September 14, 2001 11:48 AM, RonButters writes: > > In a message dated 9/14/2001 12:17:44 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > > See NEW OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH, s.v. ACCENT, "3. a special or > > particular emphasis: _the accent is on participation_." > > > > I don't have time to do a web search, but I'd guess one could > > find examples > > of this pretty easily. I will grant you that general ACCENT is > > not used this > > way without some explicitly defining context. However, as I'm sure Larry > > knows (!), a snippet of conversation divorced from the rest of the > > conversation may well divorce the snippet from the explicitly defining > > context that was implicitly understood by the participants in the > > conversation. > > > > I'd even go farther and suggest that, even if this sense of ACCENT had not > > been explicitly defined by the parties in the conversation, the > > speaker could > > well have assumed that it was implicit (if she believed that her > > friend would > > not believe that mere pronunciation would drive her away from a class). > > > > I'd even go farther than that and suggest that, given that the above > > definition of ACCENT is common to native speakers of American English, the > > speaker was at worst making a very low-level performance error such as is > > frequently common in actual conversation, i.e., using a word in > > one of its > > "marked" senses in a context where it would be most likely to be > > construed in > > its unmarked or default sense. > > > > Finally, I'm not totally sure that for anyone other than a > > linguist ACCENT is > > so strongly associated with 'pronunciation' as its default meaning. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:43:09 EDT > From: RonButters at AOL.COM > Subject: Re: What does ACCENT mean in American English? > > In a message dated 9/15/01 12:26:09 PM, vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM writes: > > << In the context under discussion, the fact > > that the speaker says "her" (instead of "the") makes it pretty clear that > > that must have been the meaning here too. >> > > Well, see my slip-is-showing examples before you say "must"; better to say, > "... makes it pretty clear that THE MOST LIKELY meaning here IS > 'PRONUNCIATION'." Which is all that I have been trying to say all along. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:52:38 -0400 > From: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: Does not compute > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 10:58:16AM -0400, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > The odd 'ergative' declaration "[Expression X] does not compute" (spoken by > > a computer) must have appeared in some old "Star Trek" program or some old > > science-fiction movie, I guess. I suppose it means roughly "[Expression X] > > cannot be parsed" or "[Expression X] is invalid". It is now used like "... > > doesn't make sense" or so, I think. > > > > Is there any information on the origin of this clumsy declaration? > > The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang says that > it was introduced as a catchphrase by the television show _My Living > Doll_ in 1964. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:01:18 -0400 > From: Gareth Branwyn > Subject: Re: Does not compute > > I believe it was also used on Irwin Allen's "Lost in Space" (1965), > along with "Affirmative!," "Warning! Warning!," and of course, "Danger, > Will Robinson." > > > Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 10:58:16AM -0400, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > > The odd 'ergative' declaration "[Expression X] does not compute" (spoken by > > > a computer) must have appeared in some old "Star Trek" program or some old > > > science-fiction movie, I guess. I suppose it means roughly "[Expression X] > > > cannot be parsed" or "[Expression X] is invalid". It is now used like "... > > > doesn't make sense" or so, I think. > > > > > > Is there any information on the origin of this clumsy declaration? > > > > The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang says that > > it was introduced as a catchphrase by the television show _My Living > > Doll_ in 1964. > > > > Jesse Sheidlower > > OED > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:29:15 EDT > From: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: Civil War > > In a message dated 09/14/2001 12:41:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: > > > Does anyone know of any books or articles or dictionaries that discuss the > > origin of the term "Civil War," in specific reference to the American > > conflict of 1861-65? > > I have a copy of the _Annual Cyclopaedia of the year 1862_ (New York: D. > Appleton & Company, 1863, no ISBN). > > A brief, less-than-thorough thumbing through this book produced innumerable > references to "the war", "this war", and "the present war." There are also > several citations for "insurrection" and "rebellion", e.g. (page 294) a > letter from Secretary of State Seward to the Senate, dated December 19, 1861, > contains "From the beginning of the insurrection..." and page 295 a > resolution offered by Senator Waltman T. Willey of Virginia, also on December > 19, 1861, begins "Resolved, That the existing war, forced upon the county by > the instagotors of the rebellion without justifiable cause or provocation..." > > However, I found the following: > > page 277, article on "Congress, U.S." on December 4, 1861, in the House of > Representatives, William S. Holman of Indiana quoted a resolution of July 22, > 1861 introduced by John J. Crittenden of Kentucky which included the > following words > "That the present deplorable civil war has been forced upon the country by > the disunionists of the Southern States now in revolt against the > consititutional Government..." > > page 270, article on "Congress, Confederate", Senator Lewis T. Wigfall of > Texas is quoted (apparently in paraphrase) as saying "the gentleman was as > much mistaken as Abraham Lincoln or William H. Seward if he thought this was > a revolution---that we were subjects fighting against an established > Government. If we were we would be entitled to the term "rebels." This is > no civil war. It is a war of some sovereign States against other States. > There was civil war in Kentucky, where citizens of the same State were at war > against one another." > > Page 726 article "Public Documents" Message of President Lincoln at the third > session of the Thirty-seventh Contress, December 1, 1862 includes the > following "The civil war which has so radically changed, for the moment, the > occupations and habits of the American people" and "A civil war occurring in > a country where foreigners reside and carry on trade under treaty > stipulations is necessarily frruitful of complaints of the violation of > neutral rights." and (page 727) "The Territories of the United States, with > unimportant exceptions, have remained undisturbed by the civil war". > > - Jim Landau > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:43:28 -0400 > From: Grant Barrett > Subject: Re: lame denials > > On 9/14/01 19:45, "sagehen" wrote: > > > arnold zwicky writes: > >> 3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, > >> feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the > >> atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to > >> "secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful > >> intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". > > > > A friend wrote me that NYT & WP were reporting that Jerry Falwell & Pat > > Robertson had concurred in these just these opinions on the latter's "700 > > Club" (radio? or tv?) but I didn't hear that either had issued denials, > > lame or otherwise! > > Those denials are in today's paper. I can't find it in the online version, > but today's New York Times, page A15, right two columns: > > "Mr. Falwell released a statement yesterday on the controversy, saying, > 'Despite the impression some may have from news reports today, I hold no one > other than the terrorists and the people and nations who have enabled and > harbored them responsible for Tuesday's attacks on this nation.' > > 'I sincerely regret that the comments I made during a long theological > discussion on a Christian television program yesterday were taken out of > their context and reported and that my thoughts--reduced to sound > bites--have detracted from the spirit of this day of mourning.'" > > Robertson had a similar, but shorter denial. > > Part of what Falwell said: "The abortionists have got to bear some burden > for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million > little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, > and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who > are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People > for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize American, I > point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" > > -- > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > http://www.worldnewyork.org/ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:00:17 +0800 > From: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Does not compute > > >... > >[This came up in a recent conversation about 'ergative' constructions such > >as "Campbell's Chunky Soup eats like a meal." (Sorry if I'm taking undue > >liberties in my use of 'ergative'.)] > > > >-- Doug Wilson > > Well, in fact, without making too fine a point on it, yes, there are > some liberties taken here; how undue depends on the theory. For most > who have worried about them, what you call ergative constructions > (and are more generally called unaccusatives) are ultimately distinct > from, although on some level (especially in sharing a "patient > subject") related to, the "middles" exemplified by "the soup that > eats like a meal" (the actual phrase used in the Cambpell ads). The > former (e.g. "The boat sank", "The door closed", "The ice melted", > "The building exploded") do not imply the existence of an agent > responsible for the event in question, although as in each of these > cases, the event may indeed have been caused either by an agent or a > force of nature. The latter ("This bread slices easily", "He don't > scare", "Shakespeare translates with difficulty", "The car is selling > like hotcakes") do have implicit agents, although typically these > cannot be directly expressed the way passive agents can. Middles > also often sound funny if they're not modified with an adverb > (including negation), while unaccusatives/ergatives don't need any > modification. (Yes, you can say "The car sold/drives", but it sounds > funny unless there's a contrastive context and intonation, neither of > which is necessary for "The boat sank". And "Campbell's Chunky Soup > eats" sounds like a failed attempt at an insult.) > > larry > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:23:54 -0400 > From: sagehen > Subject: Re: lame denials (clarification) > > I see from Grant Barrett's post that I need to proofread better. I > certainly DIDN'T mean "these just opinions." Falwell's disingenuous > retraction is ridiculous. He's saying, in effect, he doesn't really mean > it, it's just part of his doctrine. I'm happy to say I would qualify for > most of his opprobrium, but feel neither more nor less responsible than any > other citizen of this privileged country for Tuesday's horror. > > > wrote: > >> A friend wrote me that NYT & WP were reporting that Jerry Falwell & Pat > >> Robertson had concurred in these just these opinions on the latter's "700 > >> Club" (radio? or tv?) but I didn't hear that either had issued denials, > >> lame or otherwise! > > >...Falwell said...... "I really believe that the pagans, > >and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who > >are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People > >for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize American, I > >point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" > > A. Murie > > -- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:32:07 EDT > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Pancaking > > From the LOS ANGELES TIMES, 12 September 2001, pg. A4: > > 'The technical term is progressive collapse--the slang term is pancaking," said Ron Klemencic, president of Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire, the Seattle firm that engineered the World Trade Center. "What basically happens is that one floor falls on top of the floors below it, and with one floor falling on top of another there's no way to stop it." > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:06:13 -0400 > From: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: lame denials > > At 03:43 PM 9/15/01 -0400, you wrote: > >On 9/14/01 19:45, "sagehen" wrote: > > > > > arnold zwicky writes: > > >> 3. speaker asserts that members of the aclu, abortionists, pagans, > > >> feminists, gays, and lesbians must bear some responsibility for the > > >> atrocities in new york and washington, because their attempts to > > >> "secularize America" "make God mad", but a spokesperson denies hateful > > >> intent by saying these remarks were "taken out of context". > > > > > > A friend wrote me that NYT & WP were reporting that Jerry Falwell & Pat > > > Robertson had concurred in these just these opinions on the latter's "700 > > > Club" (radio? or tv?) but I didn't hear that either had issued denials, > > > lame or otherwise! > > > >Those denials are in today's paper. I can't find it in the online version, > >but today's New York Times, page A15, right two columns: > > > >"Mr. Falwell released a statement yesterday on the controversy, saying, > >'Despite the impression some may have from news reports today, I hold no one > >other than the terrorists and the people and nations who have enabled and > >harbored them responsible for Tuesday's attacks on this nation.' > > > >'I sincerely regret that the comments I made during a long theological > >discussion on a Christian television program yesterday were taken out of > >their context and reported and that my thoughts--reduced to sound > >bites--have detracted from the spirit of this day of mourning.'" > > > >Robertson had a similar, but shorter denial. > > > >Part of what Falwell said: "The abortionists have got to bear some burden > >for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million > >little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, > >and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who > >are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People > >for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize American, I > >point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" > > > >-- > > > >Grant Barrett > >gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > >http://www.worldnewyork.org/ > > E. L. Doctorow, on NPR this morning, had it right: He said Falwell is no > different from the perpetrators of this horrible week when he justifies the > murder of thousands. > > > _____________________________________________ > Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics > Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 > Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 > http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 18:18:35 -0500 > From: Gerald Cohen > Subject: "nerd" (1951) in Merriam-Webster files > > Fred Shapiro today requested Merriam-Webster's Joanne Despres to > post the 1951 citation of "nerd": > > >Actually, in my opinion, it's likely that Dr. Seuss did not coin "nerd." > >Merriam-Webster has a 1951 citation in its files indicating the word was > >already current by that year and making no reference to Seuss (I have seen > >the citation, but don't have it handy, perhaps Joanne Despres could post > >it). Given the facts that the Seuss usage was 1950 and that the Seuss > >usage may be a coincidental occurrence, I would surmise that there was a > >slang word "nerd" not originating with Seuss and going back at least to > >the late 1940s. > > > >Fred Shapiro > > I checked my files on "nerd" and find the following e-mail > from Joanne Despres: > > >Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 > >From: "Joanne M. Despres" > >Subject: Re: Wuss & others > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > >No, the 1951 citation in our files does not have anything to do with > >the Dr. Seuss character; it is the first use of _nerd_ we've been able to > >find that applies to any person having the characteristics > >described in the definition ("an unstylish, unattractive, or socially > >inept person"). The Seuss critter is, however, mentioned in our etymology > >as a possible source for the generic term. > > > >The citation, by the way, comes from Newsweek (October 8, 1951, p. > >28) and reads as follows: > > > >"In Detroit, someone who once would be called a drip or a square is > >now, regrettably, a nerd, or in a less severe case, a scurve." > > > >Joanne Despres > >Merriam-Webster > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:49:09 EDT > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Here's How! (1927, 1928) & Here's How Again! (1929) > > HERE'S HOW! > New and Revised Edition > By Judge Jr. (Norman Anthony--ed.) > The John Day Company, NY > 1927, 1928 > > Could it be possible that I missed this book? I found it while looking up another of Anthony's books. > FYI: there was Prohibition at this time. > > The Apple Jackrabbit...11 > Everything But--...12 > The White Lily...13 > The Dodge Special...14 > Little Willie...15 > The Mamie Taylor...16 (OED should have this drink--ed.) > The White Cargo...17 > The Royal Smile...18 > The Nose Dive...19 > The Magnolia Blossom...20 > The Judgette...21 > The Grape Vine...22 > Mint Fizz...23 > The Golden Gate...24 > Oh, Henry!...25 > Judge, Jr...26 > Silver Fizz...27 > Silver Stallion...28 > The Los Angeles...29 > Polo Cocktail...30 > The Corn Popper...31 > The Mule's Hind Leg...32 > The Nevada...33 > Cornell Special...34 > The Philadelphia Scotchman...35 > The French '75...36 > The Cubano...37 > De Riguer...38 > Alexander's Sister...39 > Bacardi Punch...40 > Bacardi Cocktail...41 > The Wop...42 > Barbary Coast...43 > Brandy Gump...44 > The Hurricane...45 > The Earthquake...46 > The Frankenjack...47 > The Swiss Itch...48 > Old Reliables...49 > The Crow...51 > Louisiana Fizz...52 > Champagne Cocktail...53 > The Lion...54 > Whiskey Sour...55 > A Hot Toddy...56 > The Cowboy...57 > An Egg Nog...58 > The Dacqueri Cocktail...59 > Jack Rose Cocktail...60 > Attaboy Cocktail...61 > The Mint Julep...62 > > Pg. 12: > _Everything but--_ > THIS little drink is christened thusly because it contains everything but the kitchen stove! > 1/4 Scotch; > 1/4 Gordon water; > 1/4 lemon juice; > 1/4 orange juice; > 1 egg; > 1 teaspoonful of Apricot brandy; > powdered sugar. > > Pg. 32: > _The Mule's hind leg_ (See archives for Moscow Mule--ed.) > THIS title is not an exaggeration--we know--we tried it! > 1/5 Gordon water; > 1/5 benedictine; > 1/5 Applejack; > 1/5 Apricot brandy; > 1/5 maple syrup. > > Pg. 47: > _The frankenjack_ > INVENTED by the two proprietors of a very, very well-known Speakeasy in New York City. (Jack & Charlie's 21?--ed.) > 1/3 Gordon water; > 1/3 French vermouth; > 1/6 apricot brandy; > 1/6 Cointreau. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > HERE'S HOW AGAIN! > By Judge Jr. > The John Day Company, NY > 1929 > > APPLEJACK DRINKS > Eve's Apple...13 > The Pump...14 > The Parachute...15 > The Tunney...16 > APPLEJACK AND BRANDY DRINKS > The Swan Song...17 > The Lightning Bug...18 > BACARDI DRINKS > Southern Honeysuckle...19 > The Red Flag...20 > The South Sea...21 > Leave Me With a Smile...22 > BRANDY DRINKS > The Upanattem...23 > The Yegg...24 > The Monte Cristo...25 > The Cloven Hoof...26 > The Zowie...27 > Side Car...28 > The Million Dollar Cocktail...29 > GIN DRINKS > The Kummel Ye Faithful...30 > The Bronx Express...31 > The Transatlantic Flyer...32 > The Gray Dawn...33 > The Barney...34 > The Ciro...35 > The Hooperdooper...36 > The Peacherino...37 > Peach Dream...38 > The Straight Eight...39 > The Spearmint...40 > The Oliver Twist...41 > The Razzberry...42 > The Highbrook...43 > The Green-eyed Monster...44 > GIN-BACARDI DRINKS > Palm Beach Cocktail...45 > RYE DRINKS > The Revolving Door...46 > Whiskey Sour...47 > Ward Eight...48 > The Sunkist...49 > The Snake-in-the-grass...50 > SCOTCH DRINKS > The Prodigal...51 > The Thistle...52 > Hell's Belles...53 > The Beautifier...54 > The Black Eye...55 > MISCELLANEOUS > The Kitchen Stove...56 > The Mussolini...57 > The Alps...58 > The Norman...59 > The Sweet Mama...60 > Hot Chocolate!...61 > The Tomato Cocktail...62 > > ("SIDECAR" SIDEBAR: I had to request this microfilm twice before I got it--about three hours later. Then, the library closed. I'll be out of NYC, so I can't immediately copy the entries. However, it appears to antedate "Sidecar." John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK has: "The bar's owner, Harry MacElhone, claimed the drink was concocted in 1931 for a customer who always arrived in a motocycle sidecar. But the sidecar appears in several places in Carl Van Vechten's 1931 short story collection, _Parties_." Sidecar supposedly was invented during WWI--ed.) > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:31:39 EDT > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Flying Tigers magazine (1960s) > > (ADDENDUM TO LAST POST: OED has "Sidecar" in 1928.) > > The NYPL gave me just reel two of ANNUAL PICTORIAL BULLETIN, 14TH AIR FORCE ASSOCIATION, FLYING TIGERS. It's an annual. > > 1962 > Pg. 9: A "B.S. Artist" at work. > > 1963 > Pg. 2: ...singing: > "We never falter, we never fail, > We sober up on wood alcohol..." > > 1963 > Pg. 6: In the upper left, Col. Robert L. "God is My Co-Pilot" Scott, Jr., of the 23rd Fighter Group, one of our earliest and greatest aces, helps S/Sgt. R. Fuller and Sgt. J. Teague load his guns in preparation for Scott's final Jap hunt before leaving for the United States in January, 1943. > > 1963 > Pg. 7: But they also served who acted as "honey-dippers" (left center)--one of the less glamorous occupations in the Far East--and female grain carrier (lower left). > > 1963 > Pg. 13: Milk and Cookie Bar. > > 1963 > Pg. 20: ...soup-and-fish-clad oilman Gene Ledeker (22 BS)(his motto: It taked but little toil--to get a goil--if you strike oil!)... > > 1964 > Pg. 9: ...such platitudes as "You Can't Win 'Em All", "There's One in Every Crowd" and "Even Babe Ruth Struck Out Over 1000 Times." > > 1964 > Pg. 20: ...a card over the bar that reads, "If This Sign is Blurred You Either Need Stronger Glasses or Weaker Drinks"... > > 1965 > Pg. 7: Not to be outdone by these refinements of an ancient civilization, a Pentagon-based masochist offered his own version of the "Chinese Torture treatment, lower left. Captioned "Men of Gen. Chennault's 14th USAF eagerly await chance to buy beer at first ration in China"... > > 1968 > Pg. 10: Next we see, complete with moat, the Imperial Palace in Tokyo, where the first few exotic days and nights were spent (in Tokyo, that is, not the Palace) and, lastly, the grounds around the Chinsanzo Restaurant, where our first Japanese meal together--a Mongolian Barbecue--was voraciously consumed with surprisingly favorable results. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:29:30 -0400 > From: Thomas Paikeday > Subject: Re: What does ACCENT mean in American English? > > A very interesting discussion. > > I think more evidence is needed in regard to what is generally > understood and more of the context of "I don't like her accent" to > determine the intended meaning here. A web search may indeed prove > useful in regard to the first point. Perhaps Sonja Lanehart could supply > more of the particular context in which the sentence was uttered. I do > think it is worthwhile flogging this horse. > > RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > > In a message dated 9/14/2001 12:17:44 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > > << >>"The only reason I am dropping the class is because of the teacher. I > > > >don't like her accent." > > > > > > The only way I can take the above is the phonological one; I can't > > imagine in being used anywhere I've lived to refer to the content, > > focus, or direction of the course "she" teaches. > > > > Larry > > >> > > > > Think again, Larry, about what people do in actual conversations! > > > > See NEW OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH, s.v. ACCENT, "3. a special or > > particular emphasis: _the accent is on participation_." > > > > I don't have time to do a web search, but I'd guess one could find examples > > of this pretty easily. I will grant you that general ACCENT is not used this > > way without some explicitly defining context. However, as I'm sure Larry > > knows (!), a snippet of conversation divorced from the rest of the > > conversation may well divorce the snippet from the explicitly defining > > context that was implicitly understood by the participants in the > > conversation. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 21:27:32 EDT > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Boundarylessness > > "Boundarylessness." > The big story this week was going to be the deapture of General Electric chairman Jack Welch. "Boundarylessness" was a key word at GE. CNN's Lou Dobbs mentioned that this word is not in any dictionary. > See "Neutron Jack Exits" in last Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES Week-in-Review, 9 September 2001, pg. 18, col. 1. Other key terms are "fix it, clost it, or sell it" and "creative destruction." > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:12:26 +0800 > From: Laurence Horn > Subject: "sleeper cells" (WOTY candidate?) > > I just heard (Retired?) General Clark, who I remember from the Bosnia > war and who is now a CNN military consultant, refer to the existence > of "sleeper cells" in the terrorist network. A google search turned > up this earlier use in a column at > http://www.onlinecolumnist.com/032601.html called "Terrorism's New > Malignancy" by John M. Curtis that warned last March rather > prophetically, "Entering a bold new age of global terrorism, the U.S. > is no longer immune to subversion and infiltration, requiring > heightened security and adroit counter-measures": > ================= > When a suicide bomber blasted a 40-foot long hole in the hull of the > U.S.S. guided missile destroyer Cole in the Yemen port of Aden > killing 17 seamen, suspicions were raised about a "sleeper cell" > being activated in the Arabian peninsula. All CIA reports pointed in > the direction of Osama bin Laden. Dismissing this fact makes good > public relations, but doesn't acknowledge the reality that most > recent terrorism against U.S. interests leads to Kabul. > ============= > Other cites refer directly to the current attack and the > investigation of the perpetrators. I don't know how far back the > term goes. There are earlier medical uses of "sleeper cell" > (referring to cancer), but I don't know if this is a coincidence. > > larry > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:38:21 -0400 > From: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "sleeper cells" (WOTY candidate?) > > I think "sleeper cell" means simply a cell of sleepers. "Cell" meaning > "small group [of spies/subversives/etc.]" -- back in the day, it was > usually "Communist cell", and I think this type of organization was > considered characteristic of Communists -- is cited from 1925 in my OED. > "Sleeper" = "dormant spy/saboteur" is cited from 1955 in my OED, but I > think it might be older. AHD4 gives good definitions. > > -- Doug Wilson > > ------------------------------ > > End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Sep 2001 to 15 Sep 2001 (#2001-259) > ************************************************************ > > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Sep 17 11:00:01 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:00:01 -0400 Subject: "Being Wanded" (Airport Security) In-Reply-To: <54.1afe928b.28d6e963@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > I haven't seen "wand" recorded as a verb. There are quite a few > hits on the usual computer databases. I have heard "wand" as a verb for years in reference to barcode readers. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Sep 17 12:49:34 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:49:34 EDT Subject: YOH IN AFRICAN AMERICAN VERNACULAR ENGLISH Message-ID: In a message dated 9/17/01 4:27:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, fodde at UNICA.IT writes: > I have a query which regards the origins of the exclamation YOH in AAVE, > present especially in rap music and spoken language I can't tell you anything about the origins, but I'd like to make a note on the spelling. For about two years I shared an office with an African-American named Pete Chandler (now unfortunately deceased). He used the word "yo" so often that he was called "Yo Pete" and somebody placed a sign by his desk reading "Yo Pete". Pete's usage of "yo" was considered a personal speech habit and nobody associated it with AAVE. The point is that Pete and everyone around him used the spelling "yo" rather than "yoh". The only use of "Yoh" I have ever seen is as a Chinese surname. There is an old English phrase "yo ho ho", stereotyped as sailor's lingo. This expression is old enough to appear in a folk song "The Eddystone Light". One wonders if Africans being brought from Africa to the New World as slaves heard English-speaking sailors saying "yo ho ho." - Jim Landau From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Mon Sep 17 14:15:59 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:15:59 +0100 Subject: YOH IN AFRICAN AMERICAN VERNACULAR ENGLISH Message-ID: Surely _yo!_ (and I agree, never _yoh!_) is Spanish in origin. Or at least in its AAVE use. However one should note Louise Pound (American Speech II:3 [1926]): 'Popular Variants of "Yes"': Yip, yep, yap, yop, yahp, yup, yurp, yis, yuss, yays, yass, yahss, yazz, yahzz, ye-us, ye-yuss, yeh, ye-ah, yessir (yes sir), yea bo, yah, yeth, yum, yo, yaw, yezz, etc. Jonathon Green From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Sep 17 14:31:53 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:31:53 EDT Subject: YOH IN AFRICAN AMERICAN VERNACULAR ENGLISH Message-ID: In a message dated 9/17/01 10:20:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK writes: > Surely _yo!_ ...is Spanish in origin. I'm curious as to your evidence that "yo" is from Spanish. Also, which dialect of Spanish? In the Castilian and New World dialects, "yo" means "I" and the word for "yes" is "si" (with an acute accent over the "i", so distinguish it from "si" meaning "if".) - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 17 14:48:12 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:48:12 EDT Subject: Fwd: RE: Culinary Archives & Museum (Possible Research here) Message-ID: Ah! Life is full of surprises. If anyone wants a specific culinary research request before I visit the Culinary Archives & Museum, let me know. --Barry "Not in Iran" Popik -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Barbara Kuck Subject: RE: Culinary Archives & Museum (Possible Research here) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:16:04 -0400 Size: 2628 URL: From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Sep 17 15:05:00 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:05:00 -0400 Subject: Fwd: RE: Culinary Archives & Museum (Possible Research here) In-Reply-To: <13c.18f279e.28d7672c@aol.com> Message-ID: Ah! Life is also full of wonders. "Once a year I review the file [of my e-mails]... ." dInIs > Ah! Life is full of surprises. > If anyone wants a specific culinary research request before I >visit the Culinary Archives & Museum, let me know. > >--Barry "Not in Iran" Popik > >Return-Path: >Received: from rly-xc05.mx.aol.com (rly-xc05.mail.aol.com >[172.20.105.138]) by air-xc01.mail.aol.com (v80.17) with ESMTP id >MAILINXC14-0917101631; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:16:31 -0400 >Received: from gaspee.jwu.edu (students.jwu.edu [198.112.1.19]) by >rly-xc05.mx.aol.com (v80.21) with ESMTP id >MAILRELAYINXC54-0917101622; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:16:22 -0400 >Received: by gaspee.jwu.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) > id ; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:16:13 -0400 >Message-ID: <415D42EC88D4D411A128009027AF978C0113FBF9 at gaspee.jwu.edu> >From: Barbara Kuck >To: "'Bapopik at aol.com '" >Subject: RE: Culinary Archives & Museum (Possible Research here) >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:16:04 -0400 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > > Dear Barry, >The museum is in the process of relocating to a new location. And I never >check my personal email, unfortunatley it appears the student who was >responsibile for checking my email missed yours. Once a year I review the >file and just now came accross your messages. Please let me know how I can >be of help to you. > >Barbara. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bapopik at aol.com >To: bkuck at jwu.edu >Sent: 2/8/2001 2:57 AM >Subject: Fwd: Culinary Archives & Museum (Possible Research here) > > My name is Barry Popik. I'm a member of the American Dialect >Society, a member of the American Name Society, and a contributor to the >Oxford English Dictionary, Dictionary of American Regional English, >Merriam-Webster, and other dictionaries. > I was profiled in the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 2 January 2001, pg. A20, >for my work on "hot dog" and other etymologies. As the article states, >many of my food etymologies (Danish pastry, Thousand Island dressing, >Chicken a la King, Caesar salad, Beef Wellington, Beef Stroganoff, >blintz, bagel, knish, gyro, smoothie, iced tea, pina colada, martini...) >can be found at www.americandialect.org, in the ADS-L archives. > Most of my work is out of the New York Public Library and the Library >of Congress, but I've also been around the country and to over 50 >foreign countries. > I have always intended to visit Johnson & Wales. > Is you catalog online? I'm interested in everything, but I'll >probably want to concentrate on the food & drink menus in your >collection. > Mondays or Thursdays this month or in early March are best. > >Barry Popik >225 East 57th Street, Apt. 7P >New York, NY 10022 >(212) 308-2635 >Bapopik at aol.com > <> -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU Mon Sep 17 15:03:05 2001 From: mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:03:05 -0500 Subject: Teaching: updating AAVE? Message-ID: Is anyone interested in sharing ideas about updating our approaches to the verbal system of African American (Vernacular) English in introductory linguistics courses? I'm looking at my copies of handouts from the talks Lisa Green and Charles DeBose gave at the symposium on recent advances in research in this area at the 2001 LSA meeting. (I'm missing some handouts from other relevant talks from that symposium.) I would like to move towards this approach of viewing AAVE as a system, rather than focusing on specific features that distinguish it from other varieties. For one thing, this approach should make it clearer that studying AAVE isn't about "correcting errors". Here are the questions I have so far: - How much information would it make sense to include in a, say, week-long unit in an introductory course? Would all of Lisa Green's impressively massive-looking outline of verbal paradigms be too overwhelming? - Would including technical terminology ("the tense-mood aspect markers gon', finta, done, been, and be, do not assign theta-roles" (DeBose), or Green's "remote past perfect resultant state") instill respect for the complexity of AAVE, or would it just be incomprehensible? - I'm having trouble finding additional examples of the various verb forms (is there an obvious resource that I'm missing?) and, when I do find examples, I'm not confident that I can match one author's example to a structure in another author's paradigm, especially since different varieties of AAVE might be represented. Any feedback on these questions, or the issue in general? Thanks in advance. If you get this message more than once, I apologize for the inconvenience. -Mai _________________________________ Mai Kuha mkuha at bsuvc.bsu.edu Department of English (765) 285-8410 Ball State University From douglas at NB.NET Mon Sep 17 15:07:05 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:07:05 -0400 Subject: YOH In-Reply-To: <114.4aaa40e.28d76359@aol.com> Message-ID: I presented my perhaps sophomoric thoughts on "yo" on 4 May 2001 on this list. Nobody else seemed interested at that time. I reproduce an excerpt: ---------- (1) "Yo" [multipurpose interjection] = "hey": given by OED from as early as 1420 (as "3aw" ["3" = yogh]) (2) "Walyo" [term of address] = "young man", prob. < Italian (dialect [e.g., maybe Lucano?]) "uaglio" = "boy" (3) "Yo" [response] = "yes"/"present" [military etc. from WW II or earlier] [I speculate < "yeah"/"yes" altered for loud utterance] (4) "Yo" = dialect version of "you", "your", and probably "y'all" (5) "Yo" < Spanish term of address "yo": asserted in the Cassell dictionary [I'm not familiar with this, but I am familiar with a multipurpose interjection "Co?o!" with last-syllable stress ...] The late-20th-century use as a [masculine] greeting may come from a conflation of any or all of these. ---------- -- Doug Wilson From Mark_Mandel at LHSL.COM Mon Sep 17 15:12:44 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at LHSL.COM (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:12:44 -0400 Subject: lame denials Message-ID: Grant quotes the irreverend Mr. Foulwell -- go ahead, tell me not to go overboard -- as saying: >>>>> "The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize American, I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" <<<<< Mr. F., you point that finger in my face and I will break it. -- Mark A. Mandel From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Sep 17 11:52:02 2001 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:52:02 -0400 Subject: Nerd cite Message-ID: Here's the requested quotation: Nerds and Scurves: In Detroit, someone who once would be called a drip or a square is now, regrettably, a nerd, or in a less severe case, a scurve. Newsweek October 8, 1951 Page 28 Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Sep 17 12:06:33 2001 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:06:33 -0400 Subject: lame denials Message-ID: If anyone's interested in better appreciating Rev. Falwell's own considerable skill in reinterpreting language taken from its original context, check out a film entitled "The Eyes of Tammy Fay." It's quite interesting! Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From rwheeler at CNU.EDU Mon Sep 17 16:36:16 2001 From: rwheeler at CNU.EDU (Rebecca S. Wheeler) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:36:16 -0400 Subject: Teaching: updating AAVE? Message-ID: Dear Mai, Glad to hear you're working in this arena! see responses inside. Mai Kuha wrote: > Is anyone interested in sharing ideas about updating our approaches to > the verbal system of African American (Vernacular) English in introductory > linguistics courses? > > I'm looking at my copies of handouts from the talks Lisa Green and Charles > DeBose gave at the symposium on recent advances in research in this area > at the 2001 LSA meeting. (I'm missing some handouts from other relevant > talks from that symposium.) I would like to move towards this approach of > viewing AAVE as a system, rather than focusing on specific features that > distinguish it from other varieties. For one thing, this approach should > make it clearer that studying AAVE isn't about "correcting errors". Here > are the questions I have so far: > yes, moving off of the position that errors/problems/issues are involved is indeed a central one. > > - How much information would it make sense to include in a, say, week-long > unit in an introductory course? Would all of Lisa Green's impressively > massive-looking outline of verbal paradigms be too overwhelming? It depends what material the students already command. Thus, will they have previously taken a Structure of English course, so that they will know NP and VP structuring? Or is this intro ling course a first and independent experience for them? As for how much to offer the students, I believe that if we want students to change lifelong HABITS of mind, that they must truly comprehend and confront the material, well, close up and personal so to speak. This suggests fewer examples that they understand deeply, rather than more arcane vocabulary tht will roll off them with little effect. Thus, for example, I anchor my Language and Teaching students in their stereotypic assumptions about error. I present an example like "He be watching tv" and ask the students to comment. They all come out with "broken English, poor grammar, error, problem, etc." Then I present a real life example like this one, from a student: 1. Student email Hi Professor Wheeler, I just wanted to let you know that I had an encounter with AAVE the other day. Here is a conversation between me, my husband, and my nephew. My nephew and I were picking my husband up from work. So my husband gets into the car and my nephew asks him "Uncle Poo-Poo (his nickname) y?all be playing basketball over there?" (looking at the basketball goal in the parking lot ) My husband replied "Naw man, we don't be playing, but we play sometimes.? __________________________ We then contrast AAVE aspect structure and English aspect structure, letting the patterns emerge. I then revisit their initial assessment of error, pointing out that we have a systematic pattern afoot here. Here's another example, from Noma LeMoine's __English for Your Success: A developmental Program for African American Students__ Teacher:?Bobby, what does your mother do every day?? Bobby: ?She be at home.? Teacher: ?You mean, she is at home.? Bobby: ?No, she ain?t, cause she took my grandmother to the hospital this morning.? Teacher: ?You know what I meant. You are not supposed to say, ?she be at home.? You are to say, ?she is at home.? Bobby: ?Why you trying to make me lie. She ain?t at home.? English for your Success: A Language Developmental Program for African American Children. Noma LeMoine. p. 1 Excerpting from a powerpoint presentation I have on this topic: The case of ?Be? Teacher saw error, a problem needing correction. The boy?s language was wrong in her system. Boy saw the grammar of his home speech She be at home = She is usually at home. She is at home = She is home right now. The teacher?s language was wrong in his system. The teacher didn?t know the home speech grammar The boy didn?t know the school speech grammar Confusion and miscommunication resulted _________________ I believe that in order to truly change off of the deficit approach to language, our students must deeply grasp a few patterns. Then after they do, we can offer them a sketch, outline of the broader grammar (as you suggest, Mai), and they will understand that the same kind of deep pattern inheres there. > > - Would including technical terminology ("the tense-mood aspect markers > gon', finta, done, been, and be, do not assign theta-roles" (DeBose), or > Green's "remote past perfect resultant state") instill respect for the > complexity of AAVE, or would it just be incomprehensible? the latter. Besides, they don't believe us linguists just because we're linguists. They believe their gut level assessments, UNTIL the point when we bring them to EXPERIENCE something else. > > - I'm having trouble finding additional examples of the various verb forms > (is there an obvious resource that I'm missing?) and, when I do find > examples, I'm not confident that I can match one author's example to a > structure in another author's paradigm, especially since different > varieties of AAVE might be represented. There are a ton of resources on this. Check out Smitherman 2000, Wolfram, Adger & Christian ?Dialects in Schools and Communities" 1999; Perry, Delpit, "The Real Ebonics Debate" 1998, Wolfram, Estes Schilling, "American English" not to mention all the books by Rickford, Baugh, Labov, etc. (my bibliography is at home). Check the website for the Center for Applied Linguistics, under their Ebonics headings, and also the ERIC Clearinghouse on Languages and Linguistics. By the way, I've developed a course in Dialects in the Schools, which draws on actual writing of inner city 3rd graders (manifesting a great deal of AAVE). With a prerequisite of Advanced Grammar (structure of English), students read Wolfram, Delpit, and a couple of other sources on dialects and AAVE, and then apply their knowledge of syntax to actually do a syntactic analysis of kid AAVE patterns, all with an eye to teaching code-switching within the public schools, so that kids become explicitly aware of the contrasts between various home speeches and school speech. By the way, the local school system is moving to adopt this linguistically informed vantage on language arts K - 12. I will be training the leaders of the school system in intensive residency programs to embody such a vantage and technique. Ciao, Rebecca Wheeler > > Any feedback on these questions, or the issue in general? > > Thanks in advance. If you get this message more than once, I apologize for > the inconvenience. > > -Mai > _________________________________ > Mai Kuha mkuha at bsuvc.bsu.edu > Department of English (765) 285-8410 > Ball State University -- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Rebecca S. Wheeler, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of English Christopher Newport University 1 University Place Newport News, VA 23606-2998 Editor, Syntax in the Schools The Journal of the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar (ATEG), an Assembly of the NCTE http://www.ateg.org/ phone: (757) 594-8891; fax: (757) 594-8870 email: rwheeler at cnu.edu ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Mon Sep 17 13:36:13 2001 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:36:13 -0400 Subject: "Being Wanded" (Airport Security) Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:00:01 -0400 Fred Shapiro > > > I haven't seen "wand" recorded as a verb. > I have heard "wand" as a verb for years in reference to barcode > readers. Or, "Ah gotta wand mah watch." D From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Sep 17 05:14:13 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:14:13 +0800 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:12 AM -0400 9/17/01, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >Grant quotes the irreverend Mr. Foulwell -- go ahead, tell me not to go >overboard -- as saying: > >>>>>> >"The abortionists have got to bear some burden >for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million >little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, >and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who >are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People >for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize American, I >point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" ><<<<< > Certainly the perpetrators of the recent attacks must be godless secular types, since obviously no religious believers could be capable of such infamous...oops, never mind. From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Sep 17 17:19:09 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:19:09 -0700 Subject: YOH In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010917110154.00b34560@nb.net> Message-ID: I've heard "yo" when it seems to be a reduction of "you all." It's used by an Asian-American friend when he's using AAVE. Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Douglas G. Wilson > > I presented my perhaps sophomoric thoughts on "yo" on 4 > May 2001 on this > list. Nobody else seemed interested at that time. I > reproduce an excerpt: > > ---------- > > (1) "Yo" [multipurpose interjection] = "hey": given by > OED from as early as > 1420 (as "3aw" ["3" = yogh]) > > (2) "Walyo" [term of address] = "young man", prob. < > Italian (dialect > [e.g., maybe Lucano?]) "uaglio" = "boy" > > (3) "Yo" [response] = "yes"/"present" [military etc. from > WW II or earlier] > [I speculate < "yeah"/"yes" altered for loud utterance] > > (4) "Yo" = dialect version of "you", "your", and probably "y'all" > > (5) "Yo" < Spanish term of address "yo": asserted in the > Cassell dictionary > [I'm not familiar with this, but I am familiar with a multipurpose > interjection "Co?o!" with last-syllable stress ...] From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Sep 17 19:28:38 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:28:38 -0400 Subject: Fwd: RE: Culinary Archives & Museum (Possible Research here) Message-ID: Dear Barry (and any interested others): I am looking for additional examples and further information on _spango_ (See Dictionary of Americanisms, p. 1603). Regards, David Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM Mon Sep 17 19:56:05 2001 From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Pearsons, Enid) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:56:05 -0400 Subject: "being have" Message-ID: Isn't there a certain amount of apheresis documented for AAVE that would account for the dropping of the initial syllable in "behave"? > -----Original Message----- > From: George Thompson [mailto:george.thompson at NYU.EDU] > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 1:43 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "being have" > > > This debate is going beyond what I had anticipated. > > In the context of the song, "She just won't have" undoubtedly > means "she just won't act in a decorous manner because she is too > spirited, too full of the spirit of jazz". > > If we do not derive the statement "She just won't have" from the > expression "be have" (= "act nice"), then from what idiom do we derive > it? > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African > Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lynne Murphy > Date: Friday, September 7, 2001 9:07 am > Subject: Re: "being have" > > > --On Thursday, September 6, 2001 7:31 pm -0400 George Thompson > > wrote: > > > > > Lynne Murphy objects that in the passage > > > "She came in on the Charleston wave, / What I told > you, she just > > > won't have" > > > "there's no 'be' there--so I don't think this is a case of 'to > > be have' > > > at all. " > > > > > > But "will" (won't) is the future tense of "be". So that in this > > > instance the idea of "being have" is so assimilated that the > > verb has > > > been adapted. > > > > I don't see this at all. I parse 'being haive' as be + adj or > > adv, and one > > can't saw "I won't happy" or "I won't there"--you've gotta have > > the 'be'. > > > > > > > > > > I'll concede that this analysis/joke on of "behave" is > sufficiently > > > obvious that it may have been invented ndependently many times. I > > > think I don't concede that "she just won't have" should be read > > as "she > > > just won't 'have" ("behave" truncated of its first syllable). > > > > Yeah, Arnold's probably right on this point. > > > > Lynne > > > > > > > > M Lynne Murphy > > Lecturer in Linguistics > > School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences > > University of Sussex > > Brighton BN1 9QH > > UK > > > > phone +44-(0)1273-678844 > > fax +44-(0)1273-671320 > > > From mnewman at QC.EDU Mon Sep 17 20:39:11 2001 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:39:11 -0400 Subject: YOH In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010917110154.00b34560@nb.net> Message-ID: Frank McCourt mentions a usage of 'yo' among stable hands to call horses in the 1940s, I think. Its vocative use might have spread from there. Currently, it maintains that use among almost all young New Yorkers. It is also used by many as a kind of emphasis marker (I'm not sure of the technical term here-not my area) not unlike the Straights English "la-" or for that matter the peninsular Spanish "tio" or Mexican "guey" which also share vocative uses. e.g. That Falwell's such a fool, yo. In that usage the 'yo' is downstressed. -- Michael Newman Assistant Professor of Applied Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 From conversa at IAC.NET Mon Sep 17 21:18:50 2001 From: conversa at IAC.NET (Conversa) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:18:50 -0400 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okl-word at JUNO.COM Mon Sep 17 22:24:58 2001 From: okl-word at JUNO.COM (L oki) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:24:58 EDT Subject: Bapopik Message-ID: To everyone on this list _except B.A.Popik: As an amateur without academic credentials, I've been very hesitant to comment on a person who is apparently a noted authority, but frankly I have been annoyed with Mr. Popik's voluminous and seemingly immaterial comments on such things as foreign terms not included in OED, imagined personal slights from people with better things to do, and long-winded excerpts from ephemera whose ephemeral status is well-deserved. There have been some gems in his material, but not enough to warrant the dreck he has produced, and his flippancy towards the recent disaster was the final straw. While people were hurting was not the time to complain, but now that recovery has begun, I shall make this statement. I have been, and shall continue to be, deleting any further e-mail with his name as sender without bothering to read it. I am reporting this not to urge anyone else to join me in this embargo (after all, I'm just a dabbler, while he is presumably a professional), but merely to request that any of your replies to him be phrased with the understanding that not everyone with an interest in _your comments will have bothered to read his original messages. ~Owen Lorion From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Sep 17 22:42:39 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:42:39 -0400 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010917171252.03a16b20@iac.net> Message-ID: Falwell's use of the expression "secularize" strikes me as somewhat sinister. Has he ever read the first clause of the First Amendment, or does he consider it already a dead letter? A. Murie From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Sep 17 22:43:28 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:43:28 -0700 Subject: avoiding terminal preposition Message-ID: i suppose that scholars of english grammar all have their own collections of idioms and constructions that cry out for a clause-final stranded preposition (the usage handbooks list a variety of these), as well as collections of cites where people tied themselves in tortured knots so as to avoid the dreaded terminal preposition. here's a nice example i heard on a local show ("Minds Over Matter") on the san francisco radio station KALW. talking about a city street, one of the panelists asked, "Who is it named after? I mean, for whom is it named?" what makes the example nice is that the speaker didn't just shift from a stranded preposition to its pied-piped equivalent ("After whom is it named?" - which to my ear is just awful, though perhaps not so bad as "After which parent does Kim take?" as a substitute for "Which parent does Kim take after?", or "For what did you eat that fish?" as a substitute for "What did you eat that fish for?"), but seems to have unconsciously perceived where that strategy would lead her and shifted the preposition as well, to one that's more acceptable in pied piping. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), looking for diversions From Ittaob at AOL.COM Mon Sep 17 22:36:32 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:36:32 EDT Subject: Bapopik Message-ID: I have been similarly deleting his posts for some time. Steve Boatti From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Sep 17 11:41:57 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:41:57 +0800 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010917171252.03a16b20@iac.net> Message-ID: At 5:18 PM -0400 9/17/01, Conversa wrote: >At 01:14 PM 9/17/01 +0800, Lawrence Horn wrote: (I think it was actually Laurence Horn) >>Certainly the perpetrators of the recent attacks must be godless >>secular types, since obviously no religious believers could be >>capable of such infamous...oops, never mind. >> >I understand your frustration but I would not categorize the >perpetrators as "religious believers". Even my Muslim friends tell >me that their religion does not endorse the killing of the innocent >nor suicide, and some tell me that these two acts are "sinful" and >"punishable by damnation." The faction represented by these >terrorists is so out of line that some have described what is going >on as a "battle for the soul of Islam." On the one side the >terrorist extremists and their quasi-religious views and on the >other the decent, peace-loving and responsible "center" of Islam. I'd have to disagree here, and I'm relieved we're now talking about differences in the denotation of lexical items instead of just politics and religion. I think by any standard the (putative) perpetrators are very much "religious believers", even if their particular view of Islam does not comport with yours or with those of who you see (and I see) as "mainstream" believers. I'm not sure how you can define "religious believers" so as to exclude fanatics, whether we're talking about the Jewish guys who shot up a Palestinian mosque or the Catholics who organized the Spanish Inquisition or roasted various pagans on various stakes or the Protestants who burned suspected witches in Salem to purify their village or Hindus who assassinate Moslems and vice versa in India or... The point is that (as far as this radical secularist/born-again Unitarian sees it) you can't dismiss the "terrorist extremists'...views" as "quasi-religious" because we don't agree with them, i.e. the view that if you kill lots and lots of infidels and yourself, there will be many dark-haired dark-eyed virgins waiting for you in heaven. These views ARE religious, even if they're not those of "responsible" Islam. larry From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Sep 18 01:40:27 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:40:27 -0400 Subject: Bapopik In-Reply-To: <20010917.162355.2143.0.okl-word@juno.com>; from okl-word@JUNO.COM on Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:24:58PM -0400 Message-ID: > As an amateur without academic credentials, I've been very hesitant to > comment on a person who is apparently a noted authority, but frankly I > have been annoyed with Mr. Popik's voluminous and seemingly immaterial > comments on such things as foreign terms not included in OED, imagined > personal slights from people with better things to do, and long-winded > excerpts from ephemera whose ephemeral status is well-deserved. You don't have to read it. There are professionals here who find an enormous amount of value in his ceaseless researches into subjects that many amateurs consider well-deservedly ephemeral. > There have been some gems in his material, but not enough to warrant the > dreck he has produced, In your opinion. Others would differ. > I have been, and shall continue to be, deleting any further e-mail > with his name as sender without bothering to read it. OK. This is easy enough to do; you could even set up a filter to prevent Barry's mail from even appearing in your in-box. > I am reporting this not to urge anyone else to join me in this embargo > (after all, I'm just a dabbler, while he is presumably a professional), Actually, as Barry very frequently posts--most recently, yesterday--he is an amateur. He also mentioned last week that the headquarters of his job was--or, rather, had been--in the World Trade Center. > but merely to request that any of your replies to him be phrased with the > understanding that not everyone with an interest in _your comments will > have bothered to read his original messages. I'm sorry, but because _you_ don't want to read Barry's posts, _we_ should all change our behavior to accommodate you? Barry's posts are archived along with the rest of the list; if you want to catch up you can go to http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l and do so. Jesse Sheidlower From Vocabula at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 01:54:38 2001 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:54:38 EDT Subject: The Vocabula Review -- Vol. 3, No. 9 Message-ID: Hello The September issue of The Vocabula Review (TVR) is now online at http://www.vocabula.com IN THIS ISSUE How Linguistics Killed Grammar -- Peter Corey Thanks for Sharing -- Joseph Epstein But You Know What I Mean -- Robert Fulton Two Poems -- Fred Moramarco Grumbling About Grammar Elegant English On Dimwitticisms Clues to Concise Writing Scarcely Used Words Oddments and Miscellanea On the Bookshelf Letters to the Editor Regards, Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review http://www.vocabula.com ___________________________________________________ To subscribe to The Vocabula Review: http://www.vocabula.com/VRsubscribe.htm TVR Forum: http://members.boardhost.com/Vocabula/ Do you enjoy reading The Vocabula Review each month? If so, please help ensure that you can by contributing now: http://www.vocabula.com/VRgenerosity.htm ___________________________________________________ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 United States Tel: (781) 861-1515 From jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM Tue Sep 18 02:21:34 2001 From: jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM (Jeffrey William McKeough) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:21:34 -0400 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: from "Laurence Horn" at Sep 17, 2001 07:41:57 PM Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > >I'm not sure how you can define "religious believers" so as to >exclude fanatics, whether we're talking about the Jewish guys who >shot up a Palestinian mosque If you're referring to the 1994 shooting, it was a single person, Baruch Goldstein, and it was the Tomb of the Patriarchs, not a mosque. -- Jeffrey William McKeough jwm at spdcc.com (or spdcc.net) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Sep 18 02:18:01 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:18:01 -0500 Subject: Barry Popik Message-ID: OED editor Jesse Sheidlower just expressed very strong support for the value of Barry Popik's word research. I fully agree. Barry is one of the most remarkable researchers of words in American English, and I am doing my best to write up and polish the various material he has been sharing with ads-l. (There's no way I can keep up, but I'm trying). In the informal index I've kept of my _Comments on Etymology_, Barry has 59 items listed. And this is just the tip of the iceberg of his material. Those who are uninterested in his work should by all means delete it or filter it out. But those of us who recognize the extraordinary scholarly value of his work are very much interested in seeing that work continue. I am constantly amazed at the obscure sources he digs up and the unbounded energy he brings to our field. If all the material he has produced is ever written up and polished, he will be recognized as one of the most prolific (and significant) researchers of American words and expressions. The challenge to our field is how to turn his extensive raw data into articles ready for formal publication, not how to silence him. ---Gerald Cohen Professor of German and Russian University of Missouri-Rolla research specialty: etymology co-author (with Barry Popik) of _Studies in Slang, vol. 6_. (Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang), 1999 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 03:02:19 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:02:19 EDT Subject: Little Old Lady from Pasadena; Frog Suits; No Fuss, No Cuss Message-ID: LITTLE OLD LADY FROM PASADENA A 1964 song by Jan & Dean, later by the Beach Boys. Perhaps related to the little old lady in tennis shoes (see SAFIRE'S NEW POLITICAL DICTIONARY). From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 20 November 1948, pg. 10, col. 5: _From California to Kashmir_ _Tale of an Adventurous Old Lady, Two Fortune Tellers, and a Lad Named Samdhu_ By Marageret Parton (...) NOW this little old lady, so the story goes, lived in the City of Pasadena... -------------------------------------------------------- FROG SUITS Not in the OED? From THIS WEEK, the NYHT, 15 November 1948, pg. 18, col. 1: (PHOTO CAPTION) NAVY demolition men don "frog suits" for icy swims (ARTICLE) The "devil man" at left is one of Admiral Byrd's crew, testing the Navy's new "frog suit" which underwater demolition swimmers will wear to invade enemy waters. -------------------------------------------------------- NO FUSS, NO CUSS I remember use it as "no fuss, no muss." Clementine Paddleford describes it in the NYHT, 12 November 1948, pg. 19, col. 1: No fuss, no cuss. From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Sep 18 03:39:38 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:39:38 -0700 Subject: YOH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Michael Newman > > Currently, it maintains that use among almost all young > New Yorkers. > It is also used by many as a kind of emphasis marker (I'm > not sure of > the technical term here-not my area) not unlike the > Straights English > "la-" or for that matter the peninsular Spanish "tio" or Mexican > "guey" which also share vocative uses. > > e.g. That Falwell's such a fool, yo. > > In that usage the 'yo' is downstressed. That might be the usage I've been hearing. It has that downstress which is probably why I think I hear a residual "l" sound from y'all. I'll try to listen more carefully. Benjamin Barrett From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Sep 17 15:54:33 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:54:33 +0800 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: <200109180221.WAA22323@ursolaris.spdcc.com> Message-ID: At 10:21 PM -0400 9/17/01, Jeffrey William McKeough wrote: >Laurence Horn wrote: >> >>I'm not sure how you can define "religious believers" so as to >>exclude fanatics, whether we're talking about the Jewish guys who >>shot up a Palestinian mosque > >If you're referring to the 1994 shooting, it was a single person, >Baruch Goldstein, and it was the Tomb of the Patriarchs, not a mosque. > Yes, I was, and I realized my mistake in using the plural after sending the message (although I had misremembered the site as having been a mosque). I'd intended to include the incident at the tunnel as well, but then edited it out. The point on religious fanaticism, of course, is not affected (whether or not you agree with it). Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 05:10:38 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 01:10:38 EDT Subject: Aztec Soup; VIP Sauce; White Fruitcake; Palm Court Salad Message-ID: AZTEC SOUP Not in OED? It's widely served in Mexico, as I reported two years ago. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 8 November 1948, pg. 18, col. 6: WORLDLY WISE SOUPS--Today in their fifth-floor food shop Abraham & Straus, Brooklyn, will introduce the well known Twin Gabel soups made from recipes collected around the world by Zachary Gable (sic), former Brooklyn restaurant owner. He and Abe Gruber put out a lione of eight soups that represent a potpourri of the nations. There is Aztec bean soup made with black beans in a way discovered in a Mexican hut. Bavarian peasant soup has crisp vegetables chopped and cooked in a claret-laced beef stock according to a recipe found in a Viennese restaurant. Gule Arter, a Danish specialty from Copenhagen, is made with smoked pork trimmings, dried peas and diced vegetables, all with a delicious smoky flavor. Soup from Singapore is here in the can, and so is an Arabian Chercah soup as made at Port Said. -------------------------------------------------------- VIP SAUCE From the NYHT, 18 November 1948, pg. 30, col. 8: LET'S TALK SAUCE--It is little more than a year ago that Crosbie's introduced V.I.P. Sauce to the British Public, the name coming out of he war. The term V.I.P. had been coined in England when Winston Churchill, the late Franklin D. Roosevelt, and General Dwight D. Eisenhower and Field Marshal Viscount Montgomery were among the very important persons affectionately known as the V.I.P.s, hence the title of this very important product--an epicurean treat. -------------------------------------------------------- WHITE FRUITCAKE From the NYHT, 29 November 1948, pg. 12, col. 6: _White Christmas Fruitcakes Wrapped in Wine_ ----------------------------- _They're Made in Kitchen_ _in Connecticut From Old_ _North Carolina Recipe_ By Clementine Paddleford Little blond fruitcakes bursting to surprise. Today there are ten, maybe twenty tomorrow, so the line grows, a vast company soon, swathed in white cheesecloth, dampened in white port, taking their time to come mellow for Christmas. The cakes are made by Molly Wyckoff, twelve years manager of the Kirby Allen Restaurant, 797 Madison Avnue, a woman wise in the ways of fine food, a perfectionist with her baking. The white fruitcake is made from an old North Carolina recipe, made in Molly's home kitchen in Southport, Conn., made with infinite care. (...) A pretty fruitcake, light golden in color, baked in a ring. (DARE for N. Carolina?--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- PALM COURT SALAD See John Mariani's "Palace Court salad" entry in the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK. The date given and even the name of the salad are not certain, but it's from the Palm Court at San Francisco's Palace Hotel (now Sheraton-Palace). From Clementine Paddleford's trip to San Frnacisco (no cappuccino at Tosca?) in the NYHT, 10 November 1948, pg. 28, col. 8: We had luncheon with Ruth in San Francisco's famous Palm Court of the Palace hotel. Between bites of Palm Court salad we took these notes... (Pg. 32, col. 7--ed.) PALM COURT SALAD--Our luncheon with Ruth on Nov. 1 was also opening day in the West of the dungeness crab season. That Palm Court salad we ordered was made with the fresh crab, and a pretty sight to behold. First a circle of shredded lettuce, so finely shredded, so crisp the green seemed a refined and distant cousin of the usual garden variety. On the lettuce bed a thick slice of tomato. Posed on this an artichoke heart filled with big lumps of the crab meat (or chicken or shrimp), chopped egg to garland the base. The waiter dipped over Thousand Island dressing. A few bites down, he was back adding more, then again more. Garlic bread completed the course. We ate more garlic bread in the West in four weeks than in all the years before. Toasted garlic bread is everywhere, and one taste--like popcorn--you can't let it alone. (So popcorn is the food that "you can't eat just one"?--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- HERE'S HOW AGAIN! (1929) again Pg. 28: _Side Car_ THIS drink has become quite famous--and why not? 1/3 Brandy 1/3 Cointreau 1/3 Lemon juice Pg. 56: _The Kitchen Stove_ BECAUSE there's everything in it but it! 1/6 Rye 1/6 Applejack 1/6 Italian Vermouth 1/6 Lemon juice 1/6 Orange juice 1/6 Cream Dash of Angostura Bitters Dash of Grenadine Pg. 62: _The Tomato Cocktail_ (Non-alcoholic) THIS very simple concoction is guaranteed to pick you up no matter how low you have fallen. Take a can of tomato soup and place in a shaker full of ice. Add a few dashes of Worcestershire Sauce and shake well. (Note tomato "soup," not tomato "juice"--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 06:41:17 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 02:41:17 EDT Subject: Ford Smiles (1917); Vice, Inc. (1954) Message-ID: For the record, I once worked in the World Trade Center...My cousin runs the American Embassy in Bulgaria...My family is at risk, probably as much as anyone's on this list. Tuesday's attack prevented me from traveling (at great personal expense) to the East and recording Islamic words and proverbs. -------------------------------------------------------- FORD SMILES: ALL THE BEST CURRENT JOKES ABOUT A RATTLING GOOD CAR Gathered by Carleton B. Case Charles S, Pratt, NY 1917 The author also wrote some books on wit and humor that are perhaps worth looking into. This book has "pedestrian," but unfortunately no "jaywalker." Pg. 3: What perversity of human nature has developed the recent propensity to "josh" a wonderful machine, that has benefited the very people who laugh at their own "tin lizzies" and "henrys"? Pg. 25: HOW THEY PRONOUNCE IT (New York) There once was a reckless Ford chauffeur, Who chanced to catch up with a gopher. He of course ran him down, Then inquired, with a frown, "Now, what were you going so slow fer?" (Boston) In Boston they tell of a chauffeur, A very eccentric old duffer, Who blows his Ford horn From night until morn, And makes all the neighborhood suffer. (Chicago) Another peculiar Ford chauffeur Creates a continual stir. He is blind in both eyes, And when driving he tries A smash-up is bound to occur. (Philadelphia) Still another too speedy Ford chauffeur When arrested seemed hardly to care. If put into jail, He is let out on bail, And is soon again speeding for fair. Pg. 82: IN THE FUTURIST DICTIONARY Ford--An insect inhabiting the roads of most of the civilized world, principally the United States. Commonly known as "road-louse" and "mechanical cock-roach." It is supposed to multiply very rapidly, as it was almost unknown a few years ago, and now infests the highways. It is harmless, and has seldom been known to attack a pedestrian. SO LONG? "Why is it called a runabout?" "Because it will run about a mile without stopping." Pg. 121: FORD NOMENCLATURE The man who owns one calls it MY CAR. The man who does not own one calls them Rattlers, Tin lizzies, Little henrys, Flivvers, Mechanical cockroaches-- anything he thinks of. Pg. 141: The "left-hand drive and right arm squeeze" method of driving is to be stopped in and around St. Louis, according to reports received from there. The prosecuting attorney of St. Louis county made an investigation of conditions and found that the number of "one-armed" drivers was surprising and a menace to other motorists. (At least they weren't making cell phone calls--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- VICE, INC. by Joachim Joesten Ace Books, Inc, NY 1954 DOPE, INC., by the same author, is missing from the NYPL. Another shot for Gerald Cohen's inter-library loan staff. Pg. 18: In the Romance languages, the prevailing term is "traffic in whites" (French: _traite des blacnhes_; Spanish: _trata de las blancas_; Italian: _tratta delle bianche_). All of these phrases are basically wrong because no color limitation is involved in actual practice. (Pg. 19--ed.) The Germans, again, speak of "_Madchenhandel_," which presupposes another non-existent limitation. For the traffickers, needless to say, deal not only in young girls ("_Madchen_"), but also in married women, widows and children. Pg. 64: From Trieste, Genoa, Naples and Brindisi, among other Italian ports, the bales of "blonde silk," the sacks of "green vegetables"--the trade term for girls under age--are shipped to the far corners of the earth. Pg. 123: _America: The Call-Girl System_ (No prostitution "Big Apple" citation, of course--ed. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Sep 18 12:36:09 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:36:09 -0400 Subject: Bapopik In-Reply-To: <20010917.162355.2143.0.okl-word@juno.com> Message-ID: Frankly, I'm rooting for Barry. His asides are sometimes eye-rollers, but as another amateur, I know his enthusiasm is beyond anything I could ever match. And as a fellow New Yorker, I'm eternally grateful for his work on "Big Apple." That alone compensates for the multi-part serial he continues to entertain us with, "Letters I Have Written, Responses I Have Not Received." Also, good for Barry on his recent success in getting a correction in the paper. Not many have breached the New York Times' Grey Wall of Silence. That's a feather for anyone's cap. -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Tue Sep 18 02:58:07 2001 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:58:07 -0400 Subject: Barry Popik Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:18:01 -0500 Gerald Cohen writes: > OED editor Jesse Sheidlower just expressed very strong support > for the value of Barry Popik's word research. I fully agree. > Barry is one of the most remarkable researchers of words in > American English' Not that anyone cares, but I concur. I find his monomania to be facsinating in itself. Any field of study would be fortunate to have someone so involved. I must admit that whenI am busy I delete Barry. And when the first line doesn't meet my particular interests, I delete. But that's just me. I suspect language professionals find much more of interest than I do. I don't mean to be offensive, but I have heard that it takes sifting ten tons of soil to find a diamond. And most people consider that diamond to be worth the effort. D From cbooth at BENECO.COM Tue Sep 18 14:33:21 2001 From: cbooth at BENECO.COM (Booth, Curtis) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:33:21 -0700 Subject: avoiding terminal preposition Message-ID: An alternative strategy is to not tie any knots at all but to just leave out any prepositions that might be clause final or doubled because one of them is clause final, as in this delightful example: "One of the properties of Unicode is that the character values are in the order a native speaker would normally type them, which is not necessarily the order they may appear in the final rendering." -----Original Message----- From: Arnold Zwicky [mailto:zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU] Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:43 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: avoiding terminal preposition i suppose that scholars of english grammar all have their own collections of idioms and constructions that cry out for a clause-final stranded preposition (the usage handbooks list a variety of these), as well as collections of cites where people tied themselves in tortured knots so as to avoid the dreaded terminal preposition. here's a nice example i heard on a local show ("Minds Over Matter") on the san francisco radio station KALW. talking about a city street, one of the panelists asked, "Who is it named after? I mean, for whom is it named?" what makes the example nice is that the speaker didn't just shift from a stranded preposition to its pied-piped equivalent ("After whom is it named?" - which to my ear is just awful, though perhaps not so bad as "After which parent does Kim take?" as a substitute for "Which parent does Kim take after?", or "For what did you eat that fish?" as a substitute for "What did you eat that fish for?"), but seems to have unconsciously perceived where that strategy would lead her and shifted the preposition as well, to one that's more acceptable in pied piping. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), looking for diversions From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Tue Sep 18 14:57:13 2001 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:57:13 -0700 Subject: Yo Message-ID: I remember Yo being a stereotypical Philadelphia slang term in the 80s, before I ever heard it in AAVE. Think Rocky: "Yo! Adrienne..." I'm sure there were some articles on this in the Philadelphia Inquirer. Ed Keer __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Sep 18 13:02:41 2001 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:02:41 -0400 Subject: Bapopik Message-ID: I'd like to join the chorus of support for Barry Popik, whose research is certainly very well respected (and extensively utilized) here. As far as the more ephemeral locutions and non-naturalized foreign phrases in his mailings are concerned, from my perspective, you just never know what will end up taking root in the language later on, so it can't hurt to err on the side of inclusiveness when collecting data. In this business, we're far more often stymied by a lack of information than an overabundance of it! Joanne Despres Dating Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Sep 18 15:42:31 2001 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:42:31 -0700 Subject: Bapopik In-Reply-To: <3BA70DB1.26424.47C3451@localhost> Message-ID: I agree wholeheartedly. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Joanne M. Despres wrote: > I'd like to join the chorus of support for Barry Popik, whose > research is certainly very well respected (and extensively utilized) > here. As far as the more ephemeral locutions and non-naturalized > foreign phrases in his mailings are concerned, from my > perspective, you just never know what will end up taking root in the > language later on, so it can't hurt to err on the side of inclusiveness > when collecting data. In this business, we're far more often > stymied by a lack of information than an overabundance of it! > > Joanne Despres > Dating Editor > Merriam-Webster, Inc. > From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 16:23:37 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:23:37 EDT Subject: "Being Wanded" (Airport Security) Message-ID: In a message dated 9/17/01 2:17:35 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: << Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta, on the PBS News Hour program, said that tougher airport security measures will include more people "being wanded." You know what that means--taken aside by airport security, with a wand scanning your pockets and such. I haven't seen "wand" recorded as a verb. There are quite a few hits on the usual computer databases. >> I believe that I mentioned this a few years ago on ADS-L, but I haven't checked the archives. What I remember is that a handsome airport security person said to my partner, "May I wand you?" To which Stewart answered, "Wand away!" From funex79 at SLONET.ORG Tue Sep 18 16:54:00 2001 From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:54:00 -0700 Subject: Bapopik Message-ID: As another non-professional in the field for whom visits to this list have become a daily addiction I'd like to cast my vote for Barry Popik. While I'm not always sure just what he's researching nor what becomes of all the information he pours out, I'm intrigued by his travels,his curiosity and how he can carry out his function as a traffic court judge (if that is what he is) while traveling all over the world. And while I' m on here I wonder if anyone can tell me where the term "24/7" started. I've heard two sources proposed: 1) the African-American community and 2) the Silicon Valley people. Thanks for any information on this. Jerome Foster Los Osos, CA From: "Grant Barrett" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 5:36 AM Subject: Re: Bapopik > Frankly, I'm rooting for Barry. His asides are sometimes eye-rollers, but as > another amateur, I know his enthusiasm is beyond anything I could ever > match. And as a fellow New Yorker, I'm eternally grateful for his work on > "Big Apple." That alone compensates for the multi-part serial he continues > to entertain us with, "Letters I Have Written, Responses I Have Not > Received." > > Also, good for Barry on his recent success in getting a correction in the > paper. Not many have breached the New York Times' Grey Wall of Silence. > That's a feather for anyone's cap. > > -- > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > http://www.worldnewyork.org/ > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 18 05:19:56 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:19:56 +0800 Subject: "Being Wanded" (Airport Security) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:23 PM -0400 9/18/01, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >In a message dated 9/17/01 2:17:35 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > ><< Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta, on the PBS News Hour >program, said that tougher airport security measures will include more people >"being wanded." > > You know what that means--taken aside by airport security, with a wand >scanning your pockets and such. > > I haven't seen "wand" recorded as a verb. There are quite a few hits on >the usual computer databases. >> > >I believe that I mentioned this a few years ago on ADS-L, but I haven't >checked the archives. What I remember is that a handsome airport security >person said to my partner, "May I wand you?" To which Stewart answered, "Wand >away!" Is this earlier or later than the wanding the library personnel does to the books one is checking out (at computer terminals)? Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 17:28:04 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:28:04 EDT Subject: "Holy War" (from the Crusades?) Message-ID: "HOLY WAR" From REUTERS, 9-18-2001: The Arabic word "jihad" is often translated as "holy war" but a more accurate translation is "holy struggle." Islamic scholars say the term "holy war" was actually coined in Europe during the Crusades to mean a war against the Muslims. (I completely disagree. Yes, "holy war" was used during the Crusades. But, depending on how you translate it, the Dead Sea Scrolls have whole parchments devoted to the "holy war" between the forces of light and the forces of darkness. English goes back only so far, but the concept of a "holy war" was not new to the Crusades--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- MISC. PATRIOTISM STOCKS/INVESTING--I've been looking for this in stock market reports today, but I haven't found any names for it. This would include staying in the stock market and not selling, or buying airline stocks, or buying defense stocks. FLEE MARKET--From the NEW YORK POST, 9-18-2001, pg. 18, col. 4: They've opened makeshift restaurants with their names scrawled on cardboard, like "The Freedom Cafe." In the abandoned Gateway Towers, they organize boxes of clothes, boots, hard hats and gear, outfitting work-worn rescuers every day. At the "Flee Market" near the North Cove Plaza, nurses distribute medical supplies and toiletries. BAG--From the HARTFORD COURANT, 9-12-2001, pg. A6: "Det. Rick Ortego was back in the 'bag,' police slang for uniform." From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Tue Sep 18 17:46:23 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:46:23 -0700 Subject: Bapopik Message-ID: To all: I've been following this thread with great interest. I'm an "amateur" too, although I love words and their uses; I'm writing a science fiction novel. Frankly, although I don't see any "use" for them, I find Barry's posts from all over very entertaining. I realize a lot of people are "hurting" right now, but what better time to inject a little lightness into an otherwise gloomy situation? I'm casting my vote for Barry, and won't delete him! Anne Gilbert ----- Original Message ----- From: "peef8.wa" To: Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Bapopik > Hear, Hear!! ( From another amateur) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jesse Sheidlower" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 6:40 PM > Subject: Re: Bapopik > > > I'm sorry, but because _you_ don't want to read Barry's posts, _we_ should > > all change our behavior to accommodate you? Barry's posts are archived > > along with the rest of the list; if you want to catch up you can go to > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l and do so. > > > > Jesse Sheidlower > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > NetZero Platinum > Only $9.95 per month! > Sign up in September to win one of 30 Hawaiian Vacations for 2! > http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 From Barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Sep 18 17:37:38 2001 From: Barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:37:38 -0400 Subject: 24/7 Message-ID: The term 24-7 is found in the Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 8.4, 1993). It probably needs an updated treatment. No origin was speculated at the time. My guess is that it arose in the slang/jargon of Silicon Valley. Regards, David David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] barnhart at highlands.com www.highlands.com/Lexik "Necessity obliges us to neologize." Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 17:44:34 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:44:34 EDT Subject: Yo Message-ID: In fact, the first time I ever noticed "yo" was in the Rocky film. I grew up in New York City in the 50s in a working-class neighborhood and no one I knew ever used "yo." This leads me to believe it was Philly slang that was popularized by the movie. Steve Boatti From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Sep 18 17:59:11 2001 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:59:11 -0700 Subject: "Being Wanded" (Airport Security) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Laurence Horn wrote: > Is this earlier or later than the wanding the library personnel does > to the books one is checking out (at computer terminals)? > > Larry > We started wanding in barcodes at the UW libraries in the mid-1980s, if I remember correctly. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Tue Sep 18 17:59:32 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:59:32 -0400 Subject: 24/7 Message-ID: I remember first seeing this term, then new to me, years ago in the back page of The Atlantic Monthly. A connection with the drug trade was suggested, although I don't recall if this was thought to be the origin or merely an illustrative use. Unfortunately, I don't know where, if at all, The Atlantic is archived; this particular item doesn't seem to be on their web site. John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: Barnhart [SMTP:Barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 1:38 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: 24/7 > > The term 24-7 is found in the Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 8.4, > 1993). It probably needs an updated treatment. > > No origin was speculated at the time. My guess is that it arose in the > slang/jargon of Silicon Valley. > > Regards, > David > > David K. Barnhart, Editor > The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] > barnhart at highlands.com > www.highlands.com/Lexik > > "Necessity obliges us to neologize." > Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Sep 18 17:52:28 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:52:28 -0400 Subject: On the subjec of B Popik Message-ID: I have long-ago expressed my admiration for Barry's work. He was then and remains, to the everlasting gratitude of word-watchers, interested in the development of the lexicon. America In So Many Words (Metcalf and Barnhart) benefitted immensely from his diggings. The Barnhart Dictionary Companion has benefited, as well. I am currently working on a book of food words. Needless, to say he has been right on topic for this. To the extent that some subscribers to this list find his asides (and they are asides!) unnecessary, to that extent, I would submit, those people are, in my opinion, less necessary than is Mr. Popik to the liveliness of this list. Opinionatedly submitted, David Barnhart P.S. Flame me if you will, but do it to me at not to the list, thank you. If you would be so kind in such messages as to put flame in the subject I will be able to identify quickly and dispense with just as quickly your remarks. From Vocabula at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 18:03:57 2001 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:03:57 EDT Subject: Off the subject, but anyone have the time to read and sign this? Message-ID: Please read this -- then maybe you'll be interested in signing the petition below. >>I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the >>Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would >>mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this >>atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What >>else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing >>whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." >> >>And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am >>from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've >>never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who >>will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing. >> >>I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no >>doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in >>New York. >> >>I agree that something must be done about those monsters. >> >>But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the >>government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics >>who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a >>plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, >>think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the >>Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people >>had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the >>perpetrators. >> >>They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban >>and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their >>country. >> >>Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The >>answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A >>few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 >>disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. >>There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these >>widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the >>farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons >>why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban. >> >>We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone >>Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. >> >>Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? >>Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their >>hospitals? Done. >> >>Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health >>care? Too late. Someone already did all that. >> >>New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at >>least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the >>Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away >>and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they >>don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over >>Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the >>criminals who did this horrific thing. >> >>Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by >>raping once again the people they've been raping all this time. So what >>else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear >>and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with >>ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs >>to be done" They're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as >>many as needed. >> >>Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent >>people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the >>table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die >>fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much >>bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd >>have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest >>of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand >>by? >> >>You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam >>and the West. >> >>And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he >>wants. >> >>That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right >>there. He really believes Islam would beat the West. It might seem >>ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and >>the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks a holocaust >>in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, >>that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, >>in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war >>would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. >>Who has the belly for that? >> >>Bin Laden does. Anyone else? >> >>Tamim Ansary President Bush, We the undersigned encourage you to take responsible, peaceful action in bringing the terrorists to justice. Please seriously consider the negative ramifications of continued killing and perpetuating the cycle of violence. Although many lives have already been lost, MANY MORE CAN STILL BE SAVED. 1. Robert Hartwell Fiske, Lexington, MA 2. Petition note: To sign, copy this entire message into a new email and send to all those in favor of a more peaceful world. If you sign as a multiple of 50, please send the petition to President Bush at president at whitehouse.gov along with the other addresses to continue the petition. If you do not intend to continue this petition please at least forward it to the President's email. Thank you. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 18 17:59:18 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:59:18 -0400 Subject: Bapopik In-Reply-To: <20010917.162355.2143.0.okl-word@juno.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, L oki wrote: > As an amateur without academic credentials, I've been very hesitant to > comment on a person who is apparently a noted authority, but frankly I > have been annoyed with Mr. Popik's voluminous and seemingly immaterial > comments on such things as foreign terms not included in OED, imagined > personal slights from people with better things to do, and long-winded > excerpts from ephemera whose ephemeral status is well-deserved. > > There have been some gems in his material, but not enough to warrant the > dreck he has produced, and his flippancy towards the recent disaster was > the final straw. Barry is an "amateur" in that he operates outside the academic world and does his researches without compensation. His work, however, is of such brilliance that he is nonetheless a noted authority on slang and food words and other areas of American vocabulary. He fits into a long tradition of amateur historical-lexicographical researchers, people like Marghanita Laski, W. C. Minor, Albert Matthews, Peter Tamony, etc. who have done more to advance historical-lexicographical scholarship than almost any academic. I sometimes find Barry's messages to be difficult reading because there is a high noise-to-signal ratio and a lot of attacks on ADS members (not just William Safire -- isn't Sol Steinmetz a respected ADS member?) and people who are not ADS members. But, as others have pointed out, one can use the delete key to skip all of Barry's messages, as I am sure many people on this list do. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Sep 18 18:12:42 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:12:42 -0400 Subject: Off the subject, but anyone have the time to read and sign this? In-Reply-To: <110.5846372.28d8e68d@aol.com> Message-ID: On 9/18/01 14:03, "Robert Hartwell Fiske" wrote: > Please read this -- then maybe you'll be interested in signing the petition > below. No, I am not. I do not sign such petitions in email, certainly not in a name-after-name list form, and particularly when they follow an article that has been, by now, circulated to every corner of the Internet. These sorts of mass actions are counter-productive. They give one the feeling of having acted, when in fact no action has been taken. We would be better served sending invidually written messages to the postal address of the president, our senators, our governors and our congressmen, rather than to an email box which receives tens of thousands of messages a day. Even better would be letters to hometown newspapers, letters which might try to persuade our fellow citizens. -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Tue Sep 18 18:23:37 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:23:37 -0400 Subject: lame denials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 07:41 PM 9/17/01 +0800, you wrote: >At 5:18 PM -0400 9/17/01, Conversa wrote: >>At 01:14 PM 9/17/01 +0800, Lawrence Horn wrote: >(I think it was actually Laurence Horn) > >>>Certainly the perpetrators of the recent attacks must be godless >>>secular types, since obviously no religious believers could be >>>capable of such infamous...oops, never mind. >>I understand your frustration but I would not categorize the >>perpetrators as "religious believers". Even my Muslim friends tell >>me that their religion does not endorse the killing of the innocent >>nor suicide, and some tell me that these two acts are "sinful" and >>"punishable by damnation." The faction represented by these >>terrorists is so out of line that some have described what is going >>on as a "battle for the soul of Islam." On the one side the >>terrorist extremists and their quasi-religious views and on the >>other the decent, peace-loving and responsible "center" of Islam. > >I'd have to disagree here, and I'm relieved we're now talking about >differences in the denotation of lexical items instead of just >politics and religion. I think by any standard the (putative) >perpetrators are very much "religious believers", even if their >particular view of Islam does not comport with yours or with those of >who you see (and I see) as "mainstream" believers. I'm not sure how >you can define "religious believers" so as to exclude fanatics, >whether we're talking about the Jewish guys who shot up a Palestinian >mosque or the Catholics who organized the Spanish Inquisition or >roasted various pagans on various stakes or the Protestants who >burned suspected witches in Salem to purify their village or Hindus >who assassinate Moslems and vice versa in India or... >The point is that (as far as this radical secularist/born-again >Unitarian sees it) you can't dismiss the "terrorist >extremists'...views" as "quasi-religious" because we don't agree with >them, i.e. the view that if you kill lots and lots of infidels and >yourself, there will be many dark-haired dark-eyed virgins waiting >for you in heaven. These views ARE religious, even if they're not >those of "responsible" Islam. > >larry I don't know if anyone else saw the excellent Bill Moyers interview with Robert Jay Lifton on PBS last night, but Lifton defined and discussed religious belief in just the same terms as Larry. If anything, he said, extremist belief is religion in its rawest or "most pure" sense, i.e., as not allowing any disagreement or ambiguity or dialogue at all. _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Sep 18 18:20:12 2001 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:20:12 -0600 Subject: Bapopik In-Reply-To: <3BA70DB1.26424.47C3451@localhost> Message-ID: > As far as the more ephemeral locutions and non-naturalized > foreign phrases in his mailings are concerned, from my > perspective, you just never know what will end up taking root in the > language later on, so it can't hurt to err on the side of inclusiveness > when collecting data. In this business, we're far more often > stymied by a lack of information than an overabundance of it! > > Joanne Despres > Dating Editor > Merriam-Webster, Inc. Excellent point, Joanne! Vicki Victoria Neufeldt 1533 Early Drive Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 3K1 Canada From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 19:02:41 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:02:41 EDT Subject: Hooray for Bapopik Message-ID: I confess that I generally delete Popik's postings. Deleting is easy enough for me. I delete Popik's entries--and many others--simply because I don't have time to read them all. I open things that look (by their subject headers) interesting. However, I fully appreciate that much of P's research may be of interest to professional lexicographers, and for that reason alone I welcome his continuing to share his work with the American Dialect Society. I prefer to see ADS appeal to the widest possible audience. I am also delighted that Popik's work is being archived by the ADS in searchable form: to be sure, if I ever want to check on a particular lexicographical question, I begin by searching the archive, in part because I know that Popik's enormous efforts repose there. I do find Popik's whining tantrums about Safire, Chicago, etc., annoying and off-topic, and I have whiningly complained to him about it off-line. However, if that is the price we pay for having his efforts in our archives--and available to the specialists who subscribe to ADS-L--then it is well worth it, in my opinion. From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Tue Sep 18 19:39:20 2001 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:39:20 +0200 Subject: lame denials Message-ID: > I don't know if anyone else saw the excellent Bill Moyers interview with > Robert Jay Lifton on PBS last night, but Lifton defined and discussed > religious belief in just the same terms as Larry. If anything, he said, > extremist belief is religion in its rawest or "most pure" sense, i.e., as > not allowing any disagreement or ambiguity or dialogue at all. > Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Religion is not the problem. For my part, I know that I've become more open-minded since I became a Christian, although I still have a long way to go. When I was an atheist I used to think that Christians, and to a lesser extent adherents of other faiths (against whom I was slightly less ill-disposed for reasons of cultural background) were close-minded, square, and not much fun to be around. I don't anymore, and that's progress. The pastor of the Baptist church my wife and I go to on Sundays is a man of erudition, compassion, and love for people near and far. To use a Yiddish word that has entered our language: he is a mensch. He also happens to be an Arab. A fellow translator of mine in Saudi Arabia is very upset about what happened, what's happening, and what's about to happen. Although he knows and insists that the Quran bans murder of innocents as well as suicide, he also knows that many are tarring all Muslims with the same brush. In the United States Messrs. Falwell and Robertson claimed on television on Thursday that an angry God had allowed the terrorists to succeed in their deadly mission because the United States had become a nation of abortion, homosexuality, secular schools and courts, and the American Civil Liberties Union. Have Messrs. Falwell and Robertson no shame? They are not representative of Christianity, just as the men who visited death and suffering on New York and Washington are not representative of Islam. This article from Le Monde deserves to be read by Americans: "Pouvez-vous imaginer toute l'amertume des musulmans?" LE MONDE | 15.09.01 | 12h23 | chronique MIS A JOUR LE 15.09.01 | 12h54 Au Kenya comme ailleurs, vendredi 14 septembre, la journ?e de pri?re s'annon?ait plac?e sous les auspices conjoints de l'unit? nationale et de la compassion internationale. NAIROBI de notre correspondant Au Kenya comme ailleurs, vendredi 14 septembre, la journ?e de pri?re s'annon?ait plac?e sous les auspices conjoints de l'unit? nationale et de la compassion internationale. Touch? dans sa chair - 213 morts, 5 000 bless?s - par un attentat contre l'ambassade am?ricaine de Nairobi le 7 ao?t 1998, d?j? attribu? ? Oussama Ben Laden, le pays tout entier promettait d'atteindre des sommets d'empathie avec les victimes am?ricaines du 11 septembre. Apr?s la d?flagration, il y a trois ans, les Kenyans n'avaient-ils pas remis? leurs dissensions ethniques le temps d'organiser les secours ? Mais la douleur des autres n'aura finalement pas eu les m?mes vertus, et la fracture, cette fois, est religieuse. La c?r?monie organis?e dans le parc de l'Ind?pendance, qui se voulait ocum?nique, n'a r?uni que les responsables des principales Eglises chr?tiennes qui pullulent dans le pays. Les musulmans, en ce vendredi, ont pri? dans leurs mosqu?es habituelles. Les pri?res y furent pleines de d?cence - ou de prudence, on ne sait -, mais mesur?es dans tous les cas. C'est ? la sortie de la mosqu?e centrale de Nairobi que les langues se sont soudain d?li?es, aiguis?es par l'annonce de prochaines repr?sailles des Etats-Unis. Dans la foule bruissante agglutin?e devant la mosqu?e de marbre, un homme tr?s ?cout? mart?le ces mots : "M?me si l'Am?rique raye l'Afghanistan de la carte du monde, il reste l'Iran, il reste le Kenya, et d'autres pays o? des musulmans se l?veront pour combattre jusqu'au dernier. L'Occident pleure les morts de Manhattan pendant des jours, mais oublie les morts d'Irak, de Palestine, de Tch?tch?nie ou du Cachemire. Pouvez-vous imaginer toute l'amertume, aujourd'hui, des musulmans ? Si les Etats-Unis font l'erreur de frapper militairement, une guerre entre les musulmans et les chr?tiens va commencer ; elle sera mondiale." La majorit? des quelque cinq millions de musulmans du pays d?savoueraient sans doute la forme, comme le fond, de ces envol?es. L'islam kenyan est fait de groupes ?clat?s, r?pondant mal dans l'ensemble aux appels des groupes radicaux. Mais la d?termination de ces derniers se renforce incontestablement, galvanis?e par les appels ? l'unit? venus ce m?me jour d'Afghanistan, de Gaza ou d'Egypte. L'est de l'Afrique, et plus particuli?rement le Kenya, traditionnellement proche du monde arabe, serait-il dans ce cas susceptible d'h?berger l'une des "cellules" d'Al-Qaeda, l'organisation d'Oussama Ben Laden ? Un rapport du S?nat am?ricain, publi? le 10 septembre, soit la veille des attentats aux Etats-Unis, l'affirme... En tout cas, pour les va-t'en-guerre sainte de Nairobi, l'heure est au combat - verbal encore, mais pour combien de temps encore ? "Un musulman doit se r?jouir parce que des Am?ricains sont morts, ass?ne froidement l'un des orateurs. Ces infid?les sont les ennemis jur?s des vrais croyants. Toutes ces morts nous rendent tr?s heureux. Et nous esp?rons que d'autres vont mourir encore. Nous ne ressentons aucune esp?ce de piti? pour eux. Qu'ils meurent, c'est tout. " Ces propos sont salu?s par des vivats. Jean-Philippe R?my ARTICLE PARU DANS L'EDITION DU 16.09.01 Paul _________________________________ Paul Frank English translation from Chinese, German, French, Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese Tel. (France) +33 450-709-990 Cell phone +33 681-146-755 paulfrank at post.harvard.edu paulfrank at wanadoo.fr From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Tue Sep 18 13:39:12 2001 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:39:12 -0400 Subject: Bapopik Message-ID: >From another onlooker; well said, Jesse Bob Fitzke Original Message ----- From: Jesse Sheidlower To: Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 9:40 PM Subject: Re: Bapopik > > As an amateur without academic credentials, I've been very hesitant to > > comment on a person who is apparently a noted authority, but frankly I > > have been annoyed with Mr. Popik's voluminous and seemingly immaterial > > comments on such things as foreign terms not included in OED, imagined > > personal slights from people with better things to do, and long-winded > > excerpts from ephemera whose ephemeral status is well-deserved. > > You don't have to read it. There are professionals here who find an > enormous amount of value in his ceaseless researches into subjects > that many amateurs consider well-deservedly ephemeral. > > > There have been some gems in his material, but not enough to warrant the > > dreck he has produced, > > In your opinion. Others would differ. > > > I have been, and shall continue to be, deleting any further e-mail > > with his name as sender without bothering to read it. > > OK. This is easy enough to do; you could even set up a filter to > prevent Barry's mail from even appearing in your in-box. > > > I am reporting this not to urge anyone else to join me in this embargo > > (after all, I'm just a dabbler, while he is presumably a professional), > > Actually, as Barry very frequently posts--most recently, yesterday--he > is an amateur. He also mentioned last week that the headquarters of his > job was--or, rather, had been--in the World Trade Center. > > > but merely to request that any of your replies to him be phrased with the > > understanding that not everyone with an interest in _your comments will > > have bothered to read his original messages. > > I'm sorry, but because _you_ don't want to read Barry's posts, _we_ should > all change our behavior to accommodate you? Barry's posts are archived > along with the rest of the list; if you want to catch up you can go to > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l and do so. > > Jesse Sheidlower > From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Tue Sep 18 20:55:32 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:55:32 -0400 Subject: Barry Popik In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There seems to be a general misunderstanding of my stance in all this (and I speak only for myself). Surely we can distinguish between scholarly work and personal asides. As a linguist and dialectologist, I scan Barry's messages because I do find items in them well worth passing on to my students; I'm not about to delete them without at least a quick look-see. But I too have written him privately to suggest a bit more kindness, a bit less bluntness, etc. Why can't we all just try to stick to scholarly contributions (and maybe not so scholarly--"amateurs" are welcome on this list and always have been) and save our personal comments for private notes to our friends (or enemies)? So, right off I'll apologize for writing my complaint to the list rather than to Barry privately--and I won't even excuse it as a "slip." At 09:18 PM 9/17/01 -0500, you wrote: > OED editor Jesse Sheidlower just expressed very strong support >for the value of Barry Popik's word research. I fully agree. > > Barry is one of the most remarkable researchers of words in >American English, >and I am doing my best to write up and polish the various material he >has been sharing with ads-l. (There's no way I can keep up, but I'm >trying). In the informal index I've kept of my _Comments on >Etymology_, Barry has 59 items listed. And this is just the tip of >the iceberg of his material. > > Those who are uninterested in his work should by all means delete >it or filter it out. But those of us who recognize the extraordinary >scholarly value of his work are very much interested in seeing that >work continue. I am constantly amazed at the obscure sources he digs >up and the unbounded energy he brings to our field. > > If all the material he has produced is ever written up and >polished, he will be recognized as one of the most prolific (and >significant) researchers of American words and expressions. The >challenge to our field is how to turn his extensive raw data into >articles ready for formal publication, not how to silence him. > >---Gerald Cohen > Professor of German and Russian > University of Missouri-Rolla > research specialty: etymology > co-author (with Barry Popik) of _Studies in Slang, vol. 6_. >(Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang), 1999 _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 21:20:27 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:20:27 EDT Subject: Big Easy (1948); Anyone who sees a psychiatrist... Message-ID: BIG EASY "Big Easy," one of the nicknames for New Orleans, is said to have been coined in the 1960s (according to the papers I read in the Historic New Orleans Collection). From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 27 December 1948, pg. 13, col. 7, "Matter of Fact" by Joseph Alsop: _Big Easy 103_ BERLIN. (...) Thirty-five minutes earlier Big Easy 103 had come in from Tempelhof. (It's the name of an airplane. This is easy to trace in military records--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- ANYONE WHO SEES A PSYCHIATRIST... A classic line. From THIS WEEK, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, "Best Laughs of 1948" by Irving Hoffman (of the HOLLYWOOD REPORTER), 26 December 1948, pg. 4, col. 1: Good Goldwynism: "Anybody who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined." (Later Sam said the Goldwynism wasn't his'n.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 21:53:49 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:53:49 EDT Subject: William McCoy, "King of Rum Runners" (the real McCoy?) Message-ID: From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 31 December 1948, pg. 14, col. 4: _William McCoy_ _Dies; "King of_ _Rum Runners"_ ----------------- _Captain's Aresthusa Hauled_ _Scotch to "Rum Row," Off_ _L.I., During Prohibition_ STUART, Fla., Dec. 30.--Captain William McCoy, seventy-one, who boasted that he was king of the rum runners during prohibition and coiner of the expression "the real McCoy," died today after a heart attacke aboard his boat, the Blue Lagoon of Coral Strand. Captain McCoy came to Florida from Syracuse, N.Y. in 1898 and with his brother Ben operated coastwise freight and passenger boats until prohibition came. He then bought a fast schooner, the Arethusa, with a capacity for 6,000 cases of liquor, and began hauling scotch from Nassau to a rendezvous off the Long Island coast that became known as Rum Row. The liquor he sold was always "the real McCoy" when it left his hands, he asserted, disclaiming responsibility for what might have happened to it after it reached the wholesalers and retailers in New York and New Jersey. According to his own account, he made one voyage a month, with a week to load, a week each way from Nassau, and a week to sell, and averaged $60,000 to $75,000 a trip. His buyers went out to Rum Row to speedboats that nearly always, when cornered, managed to out-run and out-maneuver the craft of revnue agents. Captain McCoy once explained why. "Simple," he said, "very simple. The Coast Guard orders a fleet of faster boats. Specifications are printed in the papers. The rum mob takes the specifications to a Brooklyn man and says, 'Make us a crate that's ten miles faster than these.'" Some of these boats, powered with three Liberty motors, attained a top speed of fifty miles an hour and one of them during a test run ran circles around the Ile de France, outward bound at full speed. After repeal Captain McCoy, with little left of his rum-running wealth, turned to real estate. The famed Arethusa collided with an iceberg in the North Atlantic and sank. In recent years he built a sixty-foot motor sailer in which he and his brother and their cronies made cruises to the Bahamas and West Indies. He also took up painting as a hobby after a friend gave him a box of paints, and his work was considered better than average. Surviving, besides his brother, is a sister, Mrs. Violet Clark, of Deland, Fla. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 23:12:21 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:12:21 EDT Subject: Barry Popik Message-ID: Since we're on the subject of Barry Popik, I have a question that is actually germane to the mission of this list: Mr. Popik has frequently stated (generally in missives to the New York Times or other publications that he chooses to quote from for this list) that he is a "contributor to the OED". This may prove (if anyone doubted) that I am an amateur, but I admit to being baffled by this phrase. Is "contributor to the OED" an official title, presumably awarded by Oxford University Press? Or is it a folk tradition among the etymological community, awarded by a consensus of one's peers? Or is it a title that anyone can claim? Does it represent a level or quantity of submissions? Or what? James A. Landau Systems Engineer FAA Technical Center (ACT-350/BCI) Atlantic City Airport NJ 08405 USA P.S. Sorry for the unnecessary dangling preposition in the second paragraph. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Sep 18 23:22:57 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:22:57 EDT Subject: Big Easy (1948); Anyone who sees a psychiatrist... Message-ID: In a message dated 09/18/2001 5:21:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > _Big Easy 103_ > BERLIN. (...) Thirty-five minutes earlier Big Easy 103 had come in from > Tempelhof. > > (It's the name of an airplane. This is easy to trace in military records-- > ed.) I don't have enough context to be certain, but I am dubious that "Big Easy 103" is the name of an individual airplane. Planes have tail numbers (i.e. the number painted on the wings and tail) and some have nicknames. However, a nickname is highly unlikely to have a number in it, particularly a number as high as 103. "BIg Easy 103" sounds like a code name for an individual flight of an airplane, or perhaps it refers to the 103rd in a series of flights that were codenamed "Big Easy". If "Big Easy" is a nickname, it may be quite difficult to chase down in military records. Official records about airplanes include considerable data from maintenance logs and airport departure/arrival lists, and these logs will, to avoid ambiguity, always refer to an airplane by its tail number or its manufacturer's serial number. James A. Landau Systems Engineer FAA Technical Center (ACT-350/BCI) Atlantic City Airport NJ 08405 USA From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Sep 18 23:49:57 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:49:57 -0400 Subject: Big Easy (1948); Anyone who sees a psychiatrist... In-Reply-To: <45.c0e6ebe.28d93151@aol.com>; from JJJRLandau@AOL.COM on Tue, Sep 18, 2001 at 07:22:57PM -0400 Message-ID: > > If "Big Easy" is a nickname, it may be quite difficult to chase down in > military records. Official records about airplanes include considerable data > from maintenance logs and airport departure/arrival lists, and these logs > will, to avoid ambiguity, always refer to an airplane by its tail number or > its manufacturer's serial number. There are, however, a number of books about aircraft nose art and similar things of the World War II era; Lighter's read a number of them for HDAS and they've been very useful. He's never found a "Big Easy", though. Jesse Sheidlower From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Sep 18 23:55:39 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:55:39 -0400 Subject: Barry Popik In-Reply-To: <86.fbf6176.28d92ed5@aol.com>; from JJJRLandau@AOL.COM on Tue, Sep 18, 2001 at 07:12:21PM -0400 Message-ID: > Is "contributor to the OED" an official title, presumably awarded by Oxford > University Press? Or is it a folk tradition among the etymological > community, awarded by a consensus of one's peers? Or is it a title that > anyone can claim? Does it represent a level or quantity of submissions? Or > what? It's not an official title, and it's not "awarded". I don't know, I don't think there's ever been a case of someone trying to claim it underservedly. Certainly if someone _were_ falsely claiming that they were connected to the OED in order to get something (access, recognition, whatever), we would do something about it. Whatever the threshold, Barry's _way_ past it. Jesse Sheidlower OED contributor-maker From douglas at NB.NET Tue Sep 18 23:56:20 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:56:20 -0400 Subject: Big Easy (1948); Anyone who sees a psychiatrist... In-Reply-To: <45.c0e6ebe.28d93151@aol.com> Message-ID: > > BERLIN. (...) Thirty-five minutes earlier Big Easy 103 had come in >from > > Tempelhof. > > > > (It's the name of an airplane. This is easy to trace in military > records-- > > ed.) Even easier than that, maybe, to get some idea ... since we have the Internet and Google. With respect to the Berlin Airlift: http://members.aol.com/airlift48/page2.html <> http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/billvons/bal/navy.htm <> -- Doug Wilson From mnewman at QC.EDU Wed Sep 19 13:42:04 2001 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:42:04 -0400 Subject: YOH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >sed. > >That might be the usage I've been hearing. It has that downstress >which is probably why I think I hear a residual "l" sound from >y'all. I'll try to listen more carefully. > >Benjamin Barrett Actually, I met someone else who thought the same thing. It's not surprising particularly since the pronunciation of 'y'all' in NYC uses a vocalized /l/ following the AAVE phonology and the vowel nucleus is often high. Still, it is different, which if anyone has any doubts, was confirmed to me by one high school kid, clearly a potential linguist, who commented on the two uses to me, when I asked him about 'yo.' I should add, that the phrase final, emphasizing usage, appears mostly limited to kids associated with hip-hop. As for it's origins, already mentioned Frank McCourt's report (in his memoir 'Tis) with horse handlers. I think Rocky is a two-edged sword in the sense of supporting a Philadelphia folk source, which may or may not be accurate. It's certainly just as common in NY and probably other places. I don't remember hearing it when I was in high school in NYC in the early '70s. The vocative use seems to have become more widespread in the 1980s. The emphasizing use appears in the 1990s. While I'm no expert on poetics, I've noticed that it is quite useful for MCs (roughly rap artists who improvise) because it provides an extra syllable that can be placed as needed to fit the target meter. For what it's worth, my research assistant, an MC, uses it to answer the phone. Me: Is K there? K 's brother: K ! Phone! K : Yo! On the subject of y'all and hip-hop, I just want to comment on an interesting 2pp form that is increasingly common here in conversation and can be found in rap lyrics. It will undoubtedly upset many people but is interesting from a linguistic perspective because it is a double plural, on the model of "vosotros": "Y'all niggaz" (that's the usual spelling). -- Michael Newman Assistant Professor of Applied Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 From ariker at IREX.ORG Wed Sep 19 17:06:30 2001 From: ariker at IREX.ORG (Anthony Riker) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:06:30 -0400 Subject: IREX 2002-2003 US Scholar Grant Opportunities Message-ID: IREX is pleased to announce its 2002-2003 grant opportunities for US scholars. For additional information and requirements for the programs, please visit the IREX web site. With funding from the United States Department of State (Title VIII Program and the Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs), National Endowment for the Humanities, The Starr Foundation, John J. and Nancy Lee Roberts, and its own Scholar Support Fund, IREX supports the following programs: INDIVIDUAL ADVANCED RESEARCH OPPORTUNITIES PROGRAM (IARO) Grants of up to $30,000 for two to nine months to US scholars for research in the social sciences and humanities at institutions in Eastern Europe and the NIS. Applicants can choose from the Fellowships in Policy Research and Development or Fellowships in Humanities options. Limited funding is available for cross-regional research in Turkey and Iran for humanities scholars. CHANGE TO 2002-2003 IARO PROGRAM APPLICATION Holders of terminal master's degrees are eligible for the IARO program. If you downloaded the 2002-2003 IARO application prior to September 1, 2001, you may submit your application using the old form. The only change is that the eligibility has been expanded to include holders of terminal master's degrees. -NEW- Grants for one to three months are now available to master's level students for research on policy relevant theses or equivalent projects. Deadline: November 1, 2001 For more information, please see the IREX web site at < http://www.irex.org/programs/iaro/index.htm > RUSSIAN-US YOUNG LEADERSHIP FELLOWS FOR PUBLIC SERVICE PROGRAM Fully funded, one-year fellowships for non-degree graduate-level academic programs in the field of Russian area studies, including course work in conflict resolution, economics, government studies, history, international relations, and political science at universities throughout the Russian Federation. The program also includes a public service component and a professional internship. Deadline: November 30, 2001 For more information, please see the IREX web site at < http://www.irex.org/programs/ylf/index.htm > CASPIAN SEA REGIONAL POLICY SYMPOSIUM IREX, in collaboration with the Woodrow Wilson Center for International Scholars, will hold a symposium for senior and junior US scholars to discuss a variety of political, economic, historical, and cultural topics related to the Caspian Sea Region. Junior scholars will be chosen based on a national competition. Applications must demonstrate a commitment to continued study, research, and work on and with the countries of the Caspian Sea Region. The symposium is scheduled for Spring 2002 in the Washington, DC area. Deadline: December 1, 2001 For more information please see the IREX web site at < http://www.irex.org/programs/caspian-sea/index.htm > REGIONAL SCHOLAR EXCHANGE PROGRAM Grants of up to nine months for US university faculty and scholars at early stages of their careers, advanced graduate students, and associate professors to conduct independent research in the humanities and social sciences at institutions in the NIS. All research proposals must demonstrate relevance to the political, economic, social, legal, educational, historical, and philosophical challenges facing the NIS or the United States and show how their research will contribute to the advancement of higher education. Deadline: January 15, 2002 The web page for the Regional Scholar Exchange Program is currently being updated. SHORT-TERM TRAVEL GRANTS PROGRAM Grants of up to $3,000 for up to two months of travel to Eastern Europe and the NIS for postdoctoral scholars and professionals with terminal degrees who do not require administrative support from IREX. These projects in the social sciences and humanities should demonstrate academic merit and relevance and contribute to the body of knowledge on these regions through the dissemination of research results. Limited funding is available for travel to Turkey and Iran for cross-regional research in the humanities. Deadline: February 1, 2002 For more information, please see the IREX web site at < http://www.irex.org/programs/stg/index.htm > JOHN J. AND NANCY LEE ROBERTS FELLOWSHIP PROGRAM A single grant of up to $50,000 for research projects lasting up to 18 months. This program supports cutting-edge research in the social sciences in Eastern Europe, the NIS, China, Mongolia, Turkey, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iran for scholars with PhD or equivalent terminal degrees. Collaborative research programs involving international colleagues are strongly encouraged. Deadline: April 15, 2002 For more information, please see the IREX web site at < http://www.irex.org/programs/roberts/index.htm > BLACK AND CASPIAN SEA COLLABORATIVE RESEARCH PROGRAM Grants of up to $25,000 to a collaborative team of graduate and/or postgraduate scholars conducting research for up to one year, focusing on issues of practical relevance and current interest to academic, corporate, and policymaking communities. The collaborative team must consist of a minimum of three people: at least one US citizen or permanent resident and at least two citizens and current residents of two different countries of the Black and Caspian Sea region at the time of application. Deadline: May 1, 2002 For more information, please see the IREX web site at < http://www.irex.org/programs/black-caspian-sea/index.htm > Eligibility requirements vary by program. Please contact IREX for applications and further information on these and other programs. Applications may be downloaded from the web sites. IREX 1616 H Street, NW 6th Floor Washington, DC 20006 Tel: 202-628-8188 Fax: 202-628-8189 E-mail: < irex at irex.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 19 17:20:01 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:20:01 EDT Subject: Only in New York City (1949) Message-ID: I have a few minutes. Here's a brief roundup from the New York Herald Tribune. I must stress that some items are "better" than others--please use extreme caution. The ADS web page wasn't available today when I checked it. -------------------------------------------------------- ONLY IN NEW YORK CITY (continued) Cindy Adams, gossip columnist of the New York Post, tried to register "Only in New York." "Only in New York City," by Richard B, Gehman, is in THIS WEEK, NYHT, 23 January 1949, pg. 10. This is earlier than the popular song "Only in America." -------------------------------------------------------- WILLIE HOWARD & "COMES THE REVOLUTION" The NYHT, 13 January 1949, obituary for Willie Howard reveals that he was a dialect comedian who possibly put several slang phrases into circulation. I'll check his file when the Performing Arts Library reopens. From col. 3: For each of his classic sketches--"The Quartet," "Mexican Presidents," "I Can Get It for You Wholesale," "After the Opera" or "French Lessons"--he had a different approach. His famous "Rewolt" routine ("Comes the ravalution, you'll eat strawberries and like it!") furnished a favorite gag for the depression years. -------------------------------------------------------- SIGNS ON WALLS From THIS WEEK, 2 January 1949, pg. 8, col. 1: CORN: Signs on walls are as old as the hills (Above this photo caption are:--ed.} YOU HAVE TRIED THE REST, NOW TRY THE BEST. IF WE PLEASE YOU TELL YOUR FRIENDS. IF NOT TELL US. -------------------------------------------------------- EARTH-BROWN From the NYHT, 29 December 1948, pg. 12, col. 5: _"Earth-Brown"_ _Is New Color in_ _Latest Carpets_ -------------------------------------------------------- REPUBLOCRAT WHING-DING The cartoon appeared in the Detroit Free Press. From the NYHT, section II, pg. 7, col. 3: That Republocrat Whing-Ding -------------------------------------------------------- PEACE OFFENSIVE Compare with "charm offensive." One of many cartoon captions is the NYHT, 24 January 1949, pg. 18, cols. 5-7: "That's What Some People Call a 'Peace Offensive.'" -------------------------------------------------------- QUICKIE VACATION I used to hear this a lot. It was the line in the very frequent TWA ads, and one is in the NYHT, 13 January 1949, pg. 20, col. 2: GET A NEW LEASE ON LIVING...WITH A _Quickie Vacation_ IN CALIFORNIA OR THE SOUTHWEST only hours away, by TWA From nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Sep 19 17:16:51 2001 From: nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET (Nancy Elliott) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:16:51 -0700 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Arriving to give hope during a terrible tragedy, Brian David Elliott Rogers was born on Monday, Sept. 10 at 1:59 pm after 45 hours of labor, and weighed 6 lb, 6 oz. Mom, ADS member Nancy Elliott, is recovering after a very long hospital stay and will somehow find time to resume her studies of rhoticity in American English 'public' speech. Best wishes, Nancy Elliott and David Rogers Southern Oregon University -------------------------- ps- Nancy is glad that Barry Popik is still alive to clog her email, and confesses she occasionally forwards his old recipes to friends before she deletes stuff. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Sep 19 17:48:49 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:48:49 -0400 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nancy, As President I offer a hearty welcome to a future ADS member. I suppose little Brian's rhoticity has not yet been decided on (although I suspect a tough row to hoe out there in Southern Oregon if a nonrhotic variety is selected for him). Best, dInIs >Arriving to give hope during a terrible tragedy, > >Brian David Elliott Rogers was born on Monday, Sept. 10 at 1:59 pm after 45 >hours of labor, and weighed 6 lb, 6 oz. > >Mom, ADS member Nancy Elliott, is recovering after a very long hospital stay >and will somehow find time to resume her studies of rhoticity in American >English 'public' speech. > >Best wishes, > >Nancy Elliott and David Rogers >Southern Oregon University > > >-------------------------- > >ps- Nancy is glad that Barry Popik is still alive to clog her email, and >confesses she occasionally forwards his old recipes to friends before she >deletes stuff. -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Sep 19 17:41:32 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:41:32 -0400 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member In-Reply-To: ; from nelliott1@EARTHLINK.NET on Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:16:51AM -0700 Message-ID: > > Brian David Elliott Rogers was born on Monday, Sept. 10 at 1:59 pm after 45 > hours of labor, and weighed 6 lb, 6 oz. Congratulations! Jesse Sheidlower From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Sep 19 18:03:54 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:03:54 -0700 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member Message-ID: dInIs sez, to nancy elliott/david rogers, re newborn brian: >As President I offer a hearty welcome to a future ADS member. I >suppose little Brian's rhoticity has not yet been decided on >(although I suspect a tough row to hoe out there in Southern Oregon >if a nonrhotic variety is selected for him). parents, set your parameters well! arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), welcoming little brian (don't we provide free memberships until actual Competence is observed and verified?) From nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Sep 19 18:02:23 2001 From: nelliott1 at EARTHLINK.NET (Nancy Elliott) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:02:23 -0700 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member In-Reply-To: Message-ID: i'd say his rhoticity is pretty much a done deal, with caucasian parents from detroit and kansas city and being raised in orygun... the burning question for me is, will he have the pin-pen merger? nancy, typing with one hand while holding a baby with the other > From: "Dennis R. Preston" > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:48:49 -0400 > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: announcing newest little ADS member > > Nancy, > > As President I offer a hearty welcome to a future ADS member. I > suppose little Brian's rhoticity has not yet been decided on > (although I suspect a tough row to hoe out there in Southern Oregon > if a nonrhotic variety is selected for him). > > Best, > > dInIs > >> Arriving to give hope during a terrible tragedy, >> >> Brian David Elliott Rogers was born on Monday, Sept. 10 at 1:59 pm after 45 >> hours of labor, and weighed 6 lb, 6 oz. >> >> Mom, ADS member Nancy Elliott, is recovering after a very long hospital stay >> and will somehow find time to resume her studies of rhoticity in American >> English 'public' speech. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Nancy Elliott and David Rogers >> Southern Oregon University >> >> >> -------------------------- >> >> ps- Nancy is glad that Barry Popik is still alive to clog her email, and >> confesses she occasionally forwards his old recipes to friends before she >> deletes stuff. > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Department of Linguistics and Languages > Michigan State University > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA > preston at pilot.msu.edu > Office: (517)353-0740 > Fax: (517)432-2736 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Sep 19 18:21:49 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:21:49 -0400 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Nancy Elliott wrote: > i'd say his rhoticity is pretty much a done deal, with caucasian parents >from detroit and kansas city and being raised in orygun... the burning >question for me is, will he have the pin-pen merger? Tutoring could be arranged -- but, congratulations whichever! Bethany From lisa.heitman at LIST-UNIVERSE.COM Wed Sep 19 18:22:22 2001 From: lisa.heitman at LIST-UNIVERSE.COM (Lisa Marie Heitman) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:22:22 -0500 Subject: Remove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:02 AM 9/19/2001 -0700, you wrote: > i'd say his rhoticity is pretty much a done deal, with caucasian parents >from detroit and kansas city and being raised in orygun... the burning >question for me is, will he have the pin-pen merger? > >nancy, typing with one hand while holding a baby with the other > > > > > From: "Dennis R. Preston" > > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:48:49 -0400 > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: announcing newest little ADS member > > > > Nancy, > > > > As President I offer a hearty welcome to a future ADS member. I > > suppose little Brian's rhoticity has not yet been decided on > > (although I suspect a tough row to hoe out there in Southern Oregon > > if a nonrhotic variety is selected for him). > > > > Best, > > > > dInIs > > > >> Arriving to give hope during a terrible tragedy, > >> > >> Brian David Elliott Rogers was born on Monday, Sept. 10 at 1:59 pm > after 45 > >> hours of labor, and weighed 6 lb, 6 oz. > >> > >> Mom, ADS member Nancy Elliott, is recovering after a very long > hospital stay > >> and will somehow find time to resume her studies of rhoticity in American > >> English 'public' speech. > >> > >> Best wishes, > >> > >> Nancy Elliott and David Rogers > >> Southern Oregon University > >> > >> > >> -------------------------- > >> > >> ps- Nancy is glad that Barry Popik is still alive to clog her email, and > >> confesses she occasionally forwards his old recipes to friends before she > >> deletes stuff. > > > > -- > > Dennis R. Preston > > Department of Linguistics and Languages > > Michigan State University > > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA > > preston at pilot.msu.edu > > Office: (517)353-0740 > > Fax: (517)432-2736 From douglas at NB.NET Wed Sep 19 19:12:17 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:12:17 -0400 Subject: Same old Message-ID: I've done a little reading. Jonathon Green was kind enough to provide his input. Not much new. The earliest I found "same ol' same ol'" is in Major's "Dictionary of Afro-American Slang" (1970) (p. 100). The earliest I found "samo-samo" is in "American Speech" 30(1):44-8 (1955) (p. 46) (A. M. Z. Norman, "Bamboo English"). Norman does not give any reason for the appearance of this form, but he attributes it to the Japanese speakers of 'bamboo English' (= 'pidgin English of the occupation') rather than to the Americans. He does note that there were other reduplications, but these are characteristic of 'pidgin' more than of Japanese, I think, and there is no other unexpected "-o". As for what it is that was reduplicated, I still suspect that it may have been "same old", i.e., that the "-o" came from English "old". However, I did find a single case in which a gratuitous "-o" was affixed to something in a quotation from a Japanese speaking 'English': whether this was simply an American's perception of a terminal Japanese "-u", I don't know, and this was a unique occurrence ("all-night-sleep-o house" was the expression IIRC, probably = "inn" [whatever it is, the speaker was pointing out that a certain district was rural and didn't have any of them]). I found one instance of "PX-o" from Korea, but I can't tell whether this is spoken by a Korean or not: it was just an item in a word list. It is possible that "samo" or even "samo-samo" was simply a nonsense augmentation of "same" by American servicemen ("That's how we used to say 'same' in Tijuana, maybe it'll work here too" or "I think these people will understand English if you repeat each word slowly, with 'o' or 'a' on the end; they understood me fine that way in Manila"). -- Doug Wilson From gbarrett at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Sep 19 19:28:25 2001 From: gbarrett at COLUMBIA.EDU (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:28:25 -0400 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member In-Reply-To: <200109191803.f8JI3sc26945@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: On 9/19/01 14:03, "Arnold Zwicky" wrote: > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), welcoming little brian > (don't we provide free memberships until actual Competence > is observed and verified?) So that's why I never have to pay... -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Sep 19 20:02:05 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:02:05 -0400 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Let's hope you enstill this obviously superior dialect trait in hem. dInIs > i'd say his rhoticity is pretty much a done deal, with caucasian parents >from detroit and kansas city and being raised in orygun... the burning >question for me is, will he have the pin-pen merger? > >nancy, typing with one hand while holding a baby with the other > > > >> From: "Dennis R. Preston" >> Reply-To: American Dialect Society >> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:48:49 -0400 >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: announcing newest little ADS member >> >> Nancy, >> >> As President I offer a hearty welcome to a future ADS member. I >> suppose little Brian's rhoticity has not yet been decided on >> (although I suspect a tough row to hoe out there in Southern Oregon >> if a nonrhotic variety is selected for him). >> >> Best, >> >> dInIs >> >>> Arriving to give hope during a terrible tragedy, >>> >>> Brian David Elliott Rogers was born on Monday, Sept. 10 at 1:59 pm after 45 >>> hours of labor, and weighed 6 lb, 6 oz. >>> >>> Mom, ADS member Nancy Elliott, is recovering after a very long >>>hospital stay >>> and will somehow find time to resume her studies of rhoticity in American >>> English 'public' speech. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Nancy Elliott and David Rogers >>> Southern Oregon University >>> >>> >>> -------------------------- >>> >>> ps- Nancy is glad that Barry Popik is still alive to clog her email, and >>> confesses she occasionally forwards his old recipes to friends before she >>> deletes stuff. >> >> -- >> Dennis R. Preston >> Department of Linguistics and Languages >> Michigan State University >> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA >> preston at pilot.msu.edu >> Office: (517)353-0740 >> Fax: (517)432-2736 -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Sep 19 20:03:58 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:03:58 -0400 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member In-Reply-To: <200109191803.f8JI3sc26945@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: arnld, Careful! Let's not bring about a split in the membership about the age of competence!! (Your suggestions have a nasty empirical ring to them.) dInIs >dInIs sez, to nancy elliott/david rogers, re newborn brian: > >As President I offer a hearty welcome to a future ADS member. I > >suppose little Brian's rhoticity has not yet been decided on > >(although I suspect a tough row to hoe out there in Southern Oregon > >if a nonrhotic variety is selected for him). > >parents, set your parameters well! > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), welcoming little brian > (don't we provide free memberships until actual Competence > is observed and verified?) -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Sep 19 19:57:21 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:57:21 -0400 Subject: accents & prescriptivism Message-ID: We have had some discussion here lately about those who dislike the accents of others. One's response to another's accent is not always an esthetic matter. This is from the [New York] Commercial Advertiser, July 28, 1830, p. 2, col. 5: A woman named Hagley, native of England residing in Hudson street, died on Saturday by taking Opium Pills, which were sent by a druggist who mistook the messenger's pronunciation of "opening". He can scarcely be fit to send drugs. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Sep 19 08:29:34 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:29:34 +0800 Subject: accents & prescriptivism In-Reply-To: <1ead3601eaf39a.1eaf39a1ead360@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: At 3:57 PM -0400 9/19/01, George Thompson wrote: >We have had some discussion here lately about those who dislike the >accents of others. One's response to another's accent is not always an >esthetic matter. > >This is from the [New York] Commercial Advertiser, July 28, 1830, p. 2, >col. 5: > >A woman named Hagley, native of England residing in Hudson street, died >on Saturday by taking Opium Pills, which were sent by a druggist who >mistook the messenger's pronunciation of "opening". He can scarcely be >fit to send drugs. > >GAT > No wonder they switched to written prescriptions (albeit famously in illegible form). But I wonder about those "Opening Pills" that were evidently intended for poor Ms. Hagley. Think of all those poor people who were inadverently turned into opium addicts, when they were just trying to be opened. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Sep 19 08:31:45 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:31:45 +0800 Subject: Bapopik In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:59 PM -0400 9/18/01, Fred Shapiro wrote: >Barry is an "amateur" in that he operates outside the academic world and >does his researches without compensation. His work, however, is of such >brilliance that he is nonetheless a noted authority on slang and food >words and other areas of American vocabulary. He fits into a long >tradition of amateur historical-lexicographical researchers, people like >Marghanita Laski, W. C. Minor,... and he hasn't committed homicide L From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Sep 19 20:56:56 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:56:56 -0400 Subject: Barry Popik In-Reply-To: <20010918195539.B784@panix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > Is "contributor to the OED" an official title, presumably awarded by Oxford > > University Press? Or is it a folk tradition among the etymological > > community, awarded by a consensus of one's peers? Or is it a title that > > anyone can claim? Does it represent a level or quantity of submissions? Or > > what? > > It's not an official title, and it's not "awarded". There is some officialness to it, in that the print and online versions of the OED both include lists of "principal contributors" and "consultants." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From douglas at NB.NET Wed Sep 19 21:08:44 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:08:44 -0400 Subject: accents & prescriptivism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >No wonder they switched to written prescriptions (albeit famously in >illegible form). But I wonder about those "Opening Pills" that were >evidently intended for poor Ms. Hagley. Think of all those poor >people who were inadverently turned into opium addicts, when they >were just trying to be opened. I'm not sure prescriptions were required in 1830, even for narcotics. Maybe Mrs. Hagley just sent for some opening pills (i.e., laxative pills) on her own. Maybe she should have read the label if there was one (and if it was legible) ... but I wonder whether in those days it would have been in pharmacists' Latin with cryptic symbols. One would expect the opium to worsen her constipation, so she'd take a bigger dose, then later -- if she still lived -- perhaps she'd be unable to remember whether she had taken any recently or not, better take several more pills, etc. .... -- Doug Wilson From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Sep 19 20:15:13 2001 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:15:13 -0600 Subject: Yo Message-ID: From: Ed Keer : I remember Yo being a stereotypical Philadelphia slang : term in the 80s, before I ever heard it in AAVE. : Think Rocky: "Yo! Adrienne..." I'm sure there were : some articles on this in the Philadelphia Inquirer. "Yo" is used, in my experience as a grad student at Penn, by Philadelphians as a greeting as an in-group marker. I don't know if it's still the case, but the Philadelphia _Daily_news_'s style/daybreak/whatever section at least used to be titled the "Yo! Philly!" section. David Bowie Department of English Assistant Professor Brigham Young University db.list at pmpkn.net http://pmpkn.net/lx The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Sep 19 21:22:10 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:22:10 EDT Subject: New York Times Corrections Message-ID: In a message dated 9/16/01 6:59:08 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: <> I don't care whether you forget your little quarrels or not--it is not my concern: your relationship with Safire, the City of Chicago, and so on is NOT professional stuff. It is your own personal griping about feeling dissed. Am I the only one who is not surprised that you equate the loss of the World Trade Center with the TIMES' slights of you? The professionals know what the linguistic facts are--what difference does it make whether Safire spells Fitz Gerald the way Fitz Gerald spelled it? Stick to the wonderful work that you do. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 19 22:55:02 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:55:02 EDT Subject: MSG (1949); Telegraph "Bug" Message-ID: MSG (continued) I had previously posted May 1949 (ADS-L archives). From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 22 March 1949, pg. 18, col. 7: "Enhance" is the new item in the line. This is our old friend M. S. G. (mono-sodium glutamate) deck out in new dress blended with the popular pot herbs of the French, a bit of dextrose added to tone down the glutamate. (Caution! Beware of giving MSG to young children! Consult your doctor!...I'll post some recipes perhaps later tonight, when the library is closed--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- TELEGRAPH "BUG" FWIW, from the NYHT, 1 March 1949, pg. 23, col. 5: _Dempsey's Savior_ _In Fight With Firpo_ _Turns in His "Bug"_ Gray-haired Perry Grogan packed away his "bug" for the last time last night and announced his retirement as a telegraph operator. (...) For twenty-four years Grogan worked his "bug" at every World Series game, major fight, football game and other sports event in the East. For the last fifteen years he had been in charge of Western Union facilities at Grand Central Terminal, the busiest telegraph counter in the world. From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Wed Sep 19 23:16:59 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:16:59 -0400 Subject: Yo In-Reply-To: <00bb01c14147$d130bc00$5729bb80@dtsnia.net> Message-ID: A student of mine said that his German professor insists that "yo" is a shortening of German "jawohl"--and he gave a long explanation of why which I can't remember. I can't buy this at all, but has anyone else heard it??? Could it have been "PA dutchified"? At 02:15 PM 9/19/01 -0600, you wrote: >From: Ed Keer > >: I remember Yo being a stereotypical Philadelphia slang >: term in the 80s, before I ever heard it in AAVE. >: Think Rocky: "Yo! Adrienne..." I'm sure there were >: some articles on this in the Philadelphia Inquirer. > >"Yo" is used, in my experience as a grad student at Penn, by Philadelphians >as a greeting as an in-group marker. > >I don't know if it's still the case, but the Philadelphia _Daily_news_'s >style/daybreak/whatever section at least used to be titled the "Yo! Philly!" >section. > >David Bowie Department of English >Assistant Professor Brigham Young University >db.list at pmpkn.net http://pmpkn.net/lx > The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Sep 20 00:36:52 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:36:52 EDT Subject: MSG (1949); Telegraph "Bug" Message-ID: In a message dated 09/19/2001 6:56:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writeth: > FWIW, from the NYHT, 1 March 1949, pg. 23, col. 5: > > _Dempsey's Savior_ > _In Fight With Firpo_ > _Turns in His "Bug"_ > Gray-haired Perry Grogan packed away his "bug" for the last time last > night and announced his retirement as a telegraph operator. (...) > For twenty-four years Grogan worked his "bug" at every World Series game, > major fight, football game and other sports event in the East. "bug" is not a slang term for a telegraph key; rather it is Morse operators' jargon for a specific type of telegraph key. With a bug, holding the key to one side produces any desired numbers of "dits" (dots) and the dahs (dashes) are produced in the traditional way, by holding down and then releasing the key for each dah. The official name is something like "semi-automatic key". With a conventional telegraph key an operator is limited to something like (if I remember correctly) 20 words per minute using International Morse (a little faster with Railway Morse). With a bug speeds of something like (IIRC) 60 wpm are possible. (A key that automatically produces dits like a bug and any desired number of dahs by moving the key in the opposite direction is a "keyer".) I learned about bugs circa 1960 when K4JGC gave our seventh grade class a tour of his ham station and showed us how a bug worked. It is possible that Mr. Grogran used a bug instead of a conventional key, or a keyer, but I suspect that the the NYHT writer simply didn't know his telegraph jargon. - Jim Landau (who is NOT a Morse operator) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 20 00:39:09 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:39:09 EDT Subject: Knisches & "Rugelach" (1949) Message-ID: Happy Jewish New Year (if it can be happy at a time like this). Sweets are traditionally made, to ring in a sweet new year. I've looked everywhere for "rugelach." I don't have access to M-W's and OED's files. This is close--too bad it's "Jewish-style homemade cookies." From Clementine Paddleford's colmn in the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 6 April 1949, pg. 18, col. 7: KNISCHE ARTIST--Bella Danchelsky is an artist with the knisches. The strudel-type dough she uses, thin as gossamer, flaky and tender, the fillings nicely seasoned. Knisches three stules are offered by Bella, potato for one, these to use instead of potatoes with the meat course at dinner, or kasha, that's buckwheat to use the same way. Cheese knisches have a filling of pot cheese, this cottage cheese to which cream has been added. A trifle too sweet four our taste but many like them just so, saying the sweeter the better. Cheese knisches go well as dessert, sour cream for a topper, this sprinkled with grated orange peel. Potato and buckwheat knisches are five cents a piece, the cheese kind costs a dime. Orders are taken for no less than a dozen, delivery made anywhere in Manhattan or Brooklyn. You pay the carfare. Eat your knisches blistering hot. Ten minutes in the oven just before serving is the right heating time. Jewish-style homemade cookies are another product of Bella Danchelsky's kitchen, the dough for these is made with cream cheese and creamery butter, made very short and filled with strawberry and raspberry jam, selling $1.25 a pound and well worth the money. To order these good things call ESplanade 3-1865. Before Mrs. Danchelsky began her catering work she ran a tea room at home at 4915 Surf Avenue, Seagate. Every evening groups wandered in just to eat the knisches; now knisches she maakes her big business. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Sep 20 02:31:11 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 21:31:11 -0500 Subject: "Yo" Message-ID: At 7:16 PM -0400 9/19/01, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >A student of mine said that his German professor insists that "yo" is a >shortening of German "jawohl"--and he gave a long explanation of why which >I can't remember. I can't buy this at all, but has anyone else heard >it??? Could it have been "PA dutchified"? Germans do not use "jawohl" as a vocative, and they do not shorten "jawohl" to "yo." The suggestion of the German professor seems implausible. ---Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 20 04:58:30 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 00:58:30 EDT Subject: Shaggy Dog Story; One-Two Punch Message-ID: Two gems from the NYHT obituaries. -------------------------------------------------------- SHAGGY DOG STORY(?) From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 20 May 1949, pg. 18, col. 5: _Dr. Thomas Hinkle,_ _Wrote Dog Stories_ ------------------- _Author of 24 Books for_ _Young People_ ONAGA, Kan., May 19.--Dr. Thomas C. Hinkle, seventy-two, physician and author of dog and horse stories for young people, died at his home here last Friday. Dr. Hinkle's first book, "Tawny: A Dog of the Old West," was published by William Morrow Co. in 1927. His twenty-fourth, "Vic: A Dog of the Prairies," is scheduled for publication in July. The publishers have on hand three other manuscripts by him. Dr. Hinkle was born in Laciede, Ill. He attended high school in Junction City, Kan., and obtained his medical degree from the University of Kansas in 1904. He was later ordained a Congregationalist minister. His books found a wide audience among adults as wellished in as among the young people for whom they were primarily intended. The late William Allen White, editor of "The Emporia Gazette," said of "Shag: The Story of a Dog," published in 1931, that "here is a dog story that will stand among the best dog stories in this country." -------------------------------------------------------- ONE-TWO PUNCH The RHHDAS has 1811, then 1902. Could the 1811 cite be wrong?...Even if it is, 1902 seems a little early for this fighter to create and popularize it. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 19 May 1949, pg. 20, col. 8: _Willie Lewis Dies,_ _1900 Ring Favorite_ ------------------- _Fought Carpentier and_ _Ketchell; Was 64_ Willie Lewis, sixty-four, prominent welterweight from 1900 until his retirement in 1915, died yesterday at Polyclinic Hospital. Mr. Lewis fought such ring greats as Stanley Ketchell and Georges Carpentier, of France, in the years before World War I. Known as a tough fighter who went out of his class to meet middleweights, light heavies and heavyweights, he never won a title but was a contender during the major part of his boxing career. After losing to Ketchell, he went to Europe and became extremely popular, especially with the French. He was credited with being one of those who introduced American ring methods in that country and was supposed also to have originated the "one-two" punch. After retiring from the ring he became manager of a cafe known as the Chateau Thierry on East Fourteenth Street. While working there one night in 1920 he was shot at close range by one of three gunmen who entered the cafe. Newspapers of the following day quoted doctors as saying that he could not live but he recovered completely. The reason for the shooting was never learned. Mr. Lewis was popular with fight fans because of his clean-cut appearance and because he was known always to put on an honest fight. His admirers called him the "Gas House Champion." (The best source to check boxing news of the 1900 period is THE POLICE GAZETTE. The American Periodical Series microfilm of this publication ends about 1899, however--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 20 05:54:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 01:54:45 EDT Subject: Cioppino (a San Francisco dish) Message-ID: DARE has 1954. From John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK: _cioppino._ A fish stew cooked with tomatoes, wine, and spices, and associated at least since the 1930s with San Francisco, where it is still a specialty in many restaurants (1935). The word is Italian, from a Genoese dialect, _ciuppin_, for a fish stew, and the dish seems to have originated with the Italian immigrants of San Francisco, who often used the crabmeat available in the city's markets. From THIS WEEK magazine, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 13 March 1949, pg. 54, col. 2: _HOW AMERICA EATS_ by Clementine Paddleford _SAN FRANCISCO: Supper on Fisherman's Wharf_ _"Cioppino," a California creation,_ _is a strange and wonderful mixture_ _of seafare. Here's how to make it_ SAN FRANCISCO's blue bay stirred in uneasy ripples. Little fishing boats cast purple shadows as they rocked themselves to sleep there by Fisherman's Wharf. Gill netters, purse seiners, trollers, crab boats, day's work done, were bedded down for the night. I sat in a corner of Tarantino's Restaurant, its outer wall of clear glass, overlooking the harbor, looking into the West, all America at my back. There was Golden Gate Bridge, an arabesque in steel, delicate as spider's webbing against the coming night. I could see lofty Mt. Tamalpais. "What's this?" "Your bib, madam," said the waiter, tying a cloth of white around my neck. In red stitched lettering the bib announced "I'm eating cioppino." The words were scarcely digested when the stew arrived. The first fragrant fumes wreathed up to make friends with the nose. I poked into the dish with an exploring fork, a strange gathering of seafare--oysters, lobsters, crab, clams. Then the first rapturous taste of the sauce-steeped garlic bread--ummm, delectable sauce! This cioppino, pronounced "cho-PEEN-o," is a bouillabaisse of sorts, a kissing cousin of the bouillabaisse (Col. 3--ed.) of Mediterranean cities, but this a California creation found nowhere else. Don Sweeney, Jr., and Gene McAteer, the Erin lads who operate Tarantino's, told me the name is a corruption of the Italian word cuoco, which means "cook." A fisherman's concoction made first by the Genoese who man the small fishing boats which chug in and out of the harbor. The dish is made over charcoal braziers, made of whatever the day's catch supplies. It may be shellfish entirely, or seafood and shellfish, the various kinds washed, cleaned, layered in the pot; then a rich garlicky tomato sauce added and the collection cooked. The fishermen usually leave the shellfish in the shells; restaurants and home cooks more often remove the meat. It's all a matter of taste. _Add What You Please_ VISIT San Francisco and ea cioppino or make it at home usuing the day's market catch. Here we give you the recipe exactly as it's made in the Tarantino kitchen. All but the romance; the sight of drying crab nets, the music of water lapping the gray timbers of the pier, the scent of night fog rolling in from the Pacific to enclose the city of hills in a gray wall. A green salad is just right with this meal-in-a-bowl. Allow at least a half-dozen paper napkins apiece. Those who live inland may not be able to get the full assortment of shellfish mentioned, but never mind, do as Western cooks do--add what you please. As to seafood, boned striped bass and halibut, cut in two-inch (Pg. 55, col. 2--ed.) pieces, are favorites for cioppino. Start the layering with the fish on the bottom, then tuck in the rest, any which wasy, but layered as to kind. _Tarantino's Cioppino Sauce_ 4 cloves garlic, minced 1 medium onion, finely diced 1 green pepper, finely diced 1 leek with leaves, finely diced 3 green onions, finely diced 3 tablespoons oil 1 No. 2 can solid-pack tomatoes, chopped fine, with juice 1 8-ounce can tomato puree Pinch of thyme 1 bay leaf Salt and pepper to taste 2 cups white table wine Saute garlic, onion, green pepper, leek and green onions in oil until golden. Add tomatoes, tomato puree, thyme and bay leaf. Cook slowly two to three hours, covered, stirring frequently. Add salt and pepper to taste; add wine; cook 10 minutes longer and pour over shellfish. _Shellfish Assortment_ 16 littleneck clams in the shell, uncooked 4 medium oysters in the shell, uncooked 8 large shrimp, shelled, uncooked 2 small lobsters or 1 large, cooked 2 medium West Coast crabs or the East Coast hard-shelled crabs, cooked Allow clams and oysters to stand in fresh water for one hour to remove sand. Scrub shells thoroughly. Split lobsters in half in shell. Split the crabs in half; disjoint the legs. Place in layers in a deep saucepan. Cover with sauce; simmer, covered, 15 minutes, adding water if necessary. Heap into soup plates, garnish with garlic-toast fingers and serve from the kitchen. See that each bowl has some of each kind of fish and a big helping of the piping sauce. Yield: 4 portions. Many are the versions of this famous stew. Virtually anything goes if the sauce is good. R. A. Carey, a real-estate broker of San Anselmo, Cal., whose week-end (Col. 3--ed.) hobby is cooking for crowds, told us his way with the dish. He removes the fish from the shell, less messy eating. (Second long recipe is not typed--ed.) From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 20 06:35:46 2001 From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:35:46 -0400 Subject: "Gucci mujahideen" Message-ID: Found this one while reading some background information on bin Laden and Afghanistan: "To some relief workers and journalists, Arabi-backed fighters were often referred to as the Gucci mujahideen because of their elaborate weapons, vehicles, and Banana-Republic-style photo vests." http://www.csmonitor.com/earlyed/earlyWorld8.html From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 20 07:31:43 2001 From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:31:43 -0500 Subject: "Gucci mujahideen" Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From transedit.h at TELIA.COM Thu Sep 20 07:48:29 2001 From: transedit.h at TELIA.COM (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:48:29 +0200 Subject: "Yo" Message-ID: >At 7:16 PM -0400 9/19/01, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >> >>A student of mine said that his German professor insists that "yo" is a >>shortening of German "jawohl"--and he gave a long explanation of why which >>I can't remember. I can't buy this at all, but has anyone else heard >>it??? Could it have been "PA dutchified"? >Germans do not use "jawohl" as a vocative, and they do not >shorten "jawohl" to "yo." The suggestion of the German professor >seems implausible. >---Gerald Cohen I agree. During three years in Germany I never heard any "yo". But in northern Sweden (and the Swedish-speaking parts of Finland) "jo" is used as a variant of "ja" (yes), especially for expressing "I agree" or for insisting very strongly on what one just said. Many US immigrants came from those areas. Maybe their way of expressing agreement made its way into US English. Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 20 07:50:23 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 03:50:23 EDT Subject: Cioppino (1927) Message-ID: It's interesting that Mariani has 1935 and Merriam-Webster has 1936. Again, DARE has 1954. I checked around the house. Five Hundred Ways To Cook California Sea Food. Compiled by: State Fish Exchange California Department of Agriculture California State Printing Office Sacramento, 1927 FISH (...) Cioppino or Chepeno...41 From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Sep 20 09:34:49 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:34:49 +0100 Subject: One-Two Punch Message-ID: > -------------------------------------------------------- > ONE-TWO PUNCH > > The RHHDAS has 1811, then 1902. Could the 1811 cite be wrong?...Even if it is, 1902 seems a little early for this fighter to create and popularize it. No. RHDAS (citing OEDS) is spot on. There is a large vocabulary of early 19C prize-fighting slang (e.g. _smeller_, nose; _claret_, blood, _victualling department_ or _office_, stomach). The works of Pierce Egan (sporting journalist, editor in 1823 of the last revision of Grose's Classical Dict. of the Vulgar Tongue, and creator of the original 'Tom and Jerry') are its best repository. On 'one-two' my own files offer, inter alia: 1819 T. Moore _Tom Crib's Memorial to Congress_ 14: Which t'other observing _put in_ his ONE-TWO / Between GEORGY'S left ribs, with a knuckle so true 1823 'Jon Bee' _Slang_ 130: One-two (ring) - when both hands are applied to the antagonist quickly, he is said to have 'napt one-two' -three, sometimes; a saying created at Bristol and brouight up to London 1848 _Flash Dictionary_ (in _Sinks of London Laid Open_) 118: One two, two blows succeeding each other Jonathon Green From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Sep 20 13:00:50 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:00:50 -0400 Subject: "Yo" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Weren't there pizza places in the 14th or 15th Century known as "Shakey's" (presumably the kind of place you'd go for a morning pizza after a night out)? I seem to remember that they had a sign on the wall that went something like this: Shakey's made a deal with the bank: The bank won't make pizzas; Shakey's won't accept checks. Probably not their original, but I first noticed it there I thnk. So, Beverly, tell your student to go back to his German professor and tell him or her that us linguists are willing to make the same deal about teaching German if they'll reciprocate. dInIs PS: 'Course if they'd like to continue contributing to FOLK etymologies (my personal favorite), let them go full speed ahead. >At 7:16 PM -0400 9/19/01, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >> >>A student of mine said that his German professor insists that "yo" is a >>shortening of German "jawohl"--and he gave a long explanation of why which >>I can't remember. I can't buy this at all, but has anyone else heard >>it??? Could it have been "PA dutchified"? > > Germans do not use "jawohl" as a vocative, and they do not >shorten "jawohl" to "yo." The suggestion of the German professor >seems implausible. > >---Gerald Cohen -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From s.roberts at RODOPI.NL Thu Sep 20 12:41:08 2001 From: s.roberts at RODOPI.NL (Suzanne Roberts) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:41:08 +0200 Subject: new book Message-ID: MARIA CHRISTINA FUMAGALLI The Flight of the Vernacular Seamus Heaney, Derek Walcott and the Impress of Dante Amsterdam/New York, NY 2001. XXVI,303 pp. (Cross/Cultures 49) ISBN: 90-420-1476-8 Bound EUR 75,- /US-$ 70.- ISBN: 90-420-1466-0 Paper EUR 30,-/US-$ 28.- In this book, Dante, Seamus Heaney and Derek Walcott engage in an eloquent and meaningful conversation. Dante's capacity for being faithful to the collective historical experience and true to the recognitions of the emerging self, the permanent immediacy of his poetry, the healthy state of his language, which is so close to the object that the two are identified, and his adamant refusal to get lost in the wide and open sea of abstraction - all these are shown to have affected, and to continue to affect, Heaney's and Walcott's work. The Flight of the Vernacular, however, is not only a record of what Dante means to the two contemporary poets but also a cogent study of Heaney's and Walcott's attitude towards language and of their views on the function of poetry in our time. Heaney's programmatic endeavour to be "adept at dialect" and Walcott's idiosyncratic redefinition of the vernacular in poetry as tone rather than as dialect - apart from having Dantean overtones - are presented as being associated with the belief that poetry is a social reality and that language is a living alphabet bound to the "opened ground" of the world. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- This book can be ordered through your bookshop or directly from the publishers Please send me ..... copy/copies of FUMAGALLI: THE FLIGHT OF THE VERNACULAR Name . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Address . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Country . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mode of payment: ?Cheque enclosed ?Please Bill ?Visa Card / ?Master Card / ?American Express Card nr.: ............................................. Exp. Date: .............................. Please note that the exchange rate is subject to fluctuations Editions Rodopi B.V. USA/Canada: One Rockefeller Plaza, Ste. 1420, New York, NY 10020 Tel. (212) 265-6360, Fax (212)-265-6402 (USA only) 1-800-225-3998 All Other Countries: Tijnmuiden 7, 1046 AK Amsterdam, The Netherlands Tel. ++ 31 (0)20 611 48 21, Fax ++ 31 (0)20 447 29 79 Orders-queries at rodopi.nl www.rodopi.nl Suzanne Roberts Rodopi Tijnmuiden 7 1046 AK Amsterdam The Netherlands www.rodopi.nl Tel: 31 (0) 20 611 48 21 Fax. 31 (0) 20 447 29 79 From lisa.heitman at LIST-UNIVERSE.COM Thu Sep 20 13:03:42 2001 From: lisa.heitman at LIST-UNIVERSE.COM (Lisa Marie Heitman) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:03:42 -0500 Subject: remove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 01:20 PM 9/19/2001 -0400, you wrote: > I have a few minutes. Here's a brief roundup from the New York Herald > Tribune. I must stress that some items are "better" than others--please > use extreme caution. > The ADS web page wasn't available today when I checked it. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >ONLY IN NEW YORK CITY (continued) > > Cindy Adams, gossip columnist of the New York Post, tried to register > "Only in New York." > "Only in New York City," by Richard B, Gehman, is in THIS WEEK, NYHT, > 23 January 1949, pg. 10. > This is earlier than the popular song "Only in America." > >-------------------------------------------------------- >WILLIE HOWARD & "COMES THE REVOLUTION" > > The NYHT, 13 January 1949, obituary for Willie Howard reveals that he > was a dialect comedian who possibly put several slang phrases into > circulation. I'll check his file when the Performing Arts Library reopens. > From col. 3: > > For each of his classic sketches--"The Quartet," "Mexican Presidents," > "I Can Get It for You Wholesale," "After the Opera" or "French > Lessons"--he had a different approach. His famous "Rewolt" routine > ("Comes the ravalution, you'll eat strawberries and like it!") furnished > a favorite gag for the depression years. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >SIGNS ON WALLS > > From THIS WEEK, 2 January 1949, pg. 8, col. 1: > >CORN: Signs on walls are as old as the hills >(Above this photo caption are:--ed.} > >YOU HAVE TRIED THE REST, >NOW TRY THE BEST. > >IF WE PLEASE YOU >TELL YOUR FRIENDS. >IF NOT TELL US. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >EARTH-BROWN > > From the NYHT, 29 December 1948, pg. 12, col. 5: > >_"Earth-Brown"_ >_Is New Color in_ >_Latest Carpets_ > >-------------------------------------------------------- >REPUBLOCRAT WHING-DING > > The cartoon appeared in the Detroit Free Press. From the NYHT, > section II, pg. 7, col. 3: > >That Republocrat Whing-Ding > >-------------------------------------------------------- >PEACE OFFENSIVE > > Compare with "charm offensive." One of many cartoon captions is the > NYHT, 24 January 1949, pg. 18, cols. 5-7: "That's What Some People Call > a 'Peace Offensive.'" > >-------------------------------------------------------- >QUICKIE VACATION > > I used to hear this a lot. It was the line in the very frequent TWA > ads, and one is in the NYHT, 13 January 1949, pg. 20, col. 2: > >GET A NEW LEASE >ON LIVING...WITH A > >_Quickie Vacation_ > >IN CALIFORNIA OR THE SOUTHWEST >only hours away, by TWA From drew.danielson at CMU.EDU Thu Sep 20 13:25:57 2001 From: drew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:25:57 -0400 Subject: Origins of 'all git-out' Message-ID: A quick check of the ADS-L archives didn't reveal anything, so I am asking at large: any ideas on the etymology of the term 'all git-out' as an intensifying comparative as in, "It's as cold as all git-out"? Thanks, Drew -- _______________________________________________________________________ Andrew Danielson Admin for Profs. Fedder, Gabriel Carnegie Mellon University Krogh, & Rajkumar Electrical & Computer +1 412 268-2188 Voice Engineering Department +1 412 268-3890 Fax 5000 Forbes Ave. http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~dmunk Pittsburgh, PA 15213 drew.danielson at cmu.edu _______________________________________________________________________ Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day. -- Thomas Jefferson We like all kinds of music/But I like American music best -- Gordon Gano From pulliam at IIT.EDU Thu Sep 20 14:05:36 2001 From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:05:36 -0500 Subject: cabbie-joint Message-ID: It's probably just new to me, but my Indian students introduced this term to me last night in class--it refers to an otherwise little-known restaurant frequented and publicized by cab drivers. -- - Greg Pulliam Department of Humanities Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Sep 20 02:44:13 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:44:13 +0800 Subject: Cioppino (a San Francisco dish) In-Reply-To: <7a.1b0375e8.28dadea7@aol.com> Message-ID: At 1:54 AM -0400 9/20/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > DARE has 1954. > From John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK: > >_cioppino._ A fish stew cooked with tomatoes, wine, and spices, and >associated at least since the 1930s with San Francisco, where it is >still a specialty in many restaurants (1935). The word is Italian, >from a Genoese dialect, _ciuppin_, for a fish stew, This I can believe (although it leaves open where "ciuppin" derives from) > This cioppino, pronounced "cho-PEEN-o," is a bouillabaisse of >sorts, a kissing cousin of the bouillabaisse (Col. 3--ed.) of >Mediterranean cities, but this a California creation found nowhere >else. Don Sweeney, Jr., and Gene McAteer, the Erin lads who operate >Tarantino's, told me the name is a corruption of the Italian word >cuoco, which means "cook." A fisherman's concoction made first by >the Genoese who man the small fishing boats which chug in and out of >the harbor. This I can't. Not that there's any reason to doubt the word of two lads of Erin on the sources of the name for an Italian fish soup, of course. It is indeed a wonderful soup/dish, whatever its etymology. And almost as messy to eat as it is delicious. But I think, following the Shakey-Preston protocol, that I promise not to try making cioppino if Sweeney and McAteer promise not to derive it. larry From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Sep 20 15:03:04 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:03:04 -0400 Subject: Cioppino (a San Francisco dish) In-Reply-To: <7a.1b0375e8.28dadea7@aol.com> Message-ID: FWIW, I add my name to those who find Barry Popik's posts to be a most welcome contribution to the grand conversation on ADS-L, but I don't know if I can forgive him for this morning's tantalizing description of cioppino when all there is of seafood in my cupboard is a can of tongol tuna! A. Murie From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Sep 20 15:13:28 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:13:28 -0400 Subject: accents & prescriptivism Message-ID: Laurence Horn writes, regarding the druggist who dispensed Opium Pills by mistake for Opening Pills: "No wonder they switched to written prescriptions (albeit famously in illegible form)", and Douglas Wilson replies: "I'm not sure prescriptions were required in 1830, even for narcotics." Opium was sold over the counter. I have a story about a man who went into a druggist, bought a couple of opium pills, and popped them into his mouth. The druggist supposed that he was trying to commit suicide and called for help, but the man explained that it was just his morning eye-opener. The other recreational drug used in the 1820s -- other than alcohol, of course -- was nitrous oxide. A woman wrote to one of the papers that her young daughter had been buying nitrous oxide in a bladder and sucking it out through a straw, so that she and her friends ran about the back yard like witches. The editor sternly remarked that perhaps druggists should be more careful about whom they sold the stuff to. Nitrous oxide was also administered as part of stage shows. Members of the audiences would volunteer to take it, and the rest would be amused by their bizarre behavior while under the influence. A report described it as sweet in taste, and noted that those who have once tried it want to use it again. Its medicinal use wasn't discovered for about 20 years -- the 1840s, I think. The good old days. The anecdotes above are from memory. If anyone has any need for the exact citations, let me know and I will dig them out. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From lynnhatt at UIC.EDU Thu Sep 20 15:20:25 2001 From: lynnhatt at UIC.EDU (Lynn C. Hattendorf Westney) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:20:25 -0500 Subject: William McCoy, "King of Rum Runners" (the real McCoy?) Message-ID: I'd always heard that came from an early boxer. Looked up and found "Kid" McCoy; welterweight Champ. 1896 See http://www.ibhof.com/mccoy.htm It is also believed that the term, "The Real McCoy" evolved into the usage of the English language because of him. To gain a psychological advantage over his opponents, McCoy feined illness before several bouts or he would spread the word to the media that he neglected training. On fight night, much to the surprise of the press and his opponents, McCoy was usually fit and ready to fight. Thus, reporters often asked, "Is this the real McCoy?" > > From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 31 December 1948, pg. 14, col. 4: > > _William McCoy_ > _Dies; "King of Rum Runners"_ > ----------------- > _Captain's Aresthusa Hauled_ > _Scotch to "Rum Row," Off_ > _L.I., During Prohibition_ > STUART, Fla., Dec. 30.--Captain William McCoy, seventy-one, who boasted that he was king of the rum runners during prohibition and coiner of the expression "the real McCoy," died today after a heart attacke aboard his boat, the Blue Lagoon of Coral Strand. > Captain McCoy came to Florida from Syracuse, N.Y. in 1898 and with his brother Ben operated coastwise freight and passenger boats until prohibition came. He then bought a fast schooner, the Arethusa, with a capacity for 6,000 cases of liquor, and began hauling scotch from Nassau to a rendezvous off the Long Island coast that became known as Rum Row. > The liquor he sold was always "the real McCoy" when it left his hands, he asserted, disclaiming responsibility for what might have happened to it after it reached the wholesalers and retailers in New York and New Jersey. > According to his own account, he made one voyage a month, with a week to load, a week each way from Nassau, and a week to sell, and averaged $60,000 to $75,000 a trip. > His buyers went out to Rum Row to speedboats that nearly always, when cornered, managed to out-run and out-maneuver the craft of revnue agents. Captain McCoy once explained why. > "Simple," he said, "very simple. The Coast Guard orders a fleet of faster boats. Specifications are printed in the papers. The rum mob takes the specifications to a Brooklyn man and says, 'Make us a crate that's ten miles faster than these.'" > Some of these boats, powered with three Liberty motors, attained a top speed of fifty miles an hour and one of them during a test run ran circles around the Ile de France, outward bound at full speed. > After repeal Captain McCoy, with little left of his rum-running wealth, turned to real estate. The famed Arethusa collided with an iceberg in the North Atlantic and sank. > In recent years he built a sixty-foot motor sailer in which he and his brother and their cronies made cruises to the Bahamas and West Indies. He also took up painting as a hobby after a friend gave him a box of paints, and his work was considered better than average. > Surviving, besides his brother, is a sister, Mrs. Violet Clark, of Deland, Fla. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Sep 20 15:31:20 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:31:20 -0400 Subject: One-Two Punch Message-ID: I have very extensive notes regarding the jargon of prizefighting from U. S. sources of the 1820s. Many represent considerable antedatings to the HDAS. (They are in the hands of Jesse Sheidlower, along with all of my notes on Americanisms.) I have had half a mind to submit them to American Speech or any other journal that will put them on paper and in libraries. In any event, here is "one-two" from a NYC newspaper, 1822. It appears as the signature to a letter to the editor purportedly written by two boxers. 1822: ONE TWO and FLOORER. The American, March 2, 1822, p. 2, col. 3 George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathon Green Date: Thursday, September 20, 2001 5:34 am Subject: Re: One-Two Punch > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > ONE-TWO PUNCH > > > > The RHHDAS has 1811, then 1902. Could the 1811 cite be > wrong?...Evenif it is, 1902 seems a little early for this fighter > to create and > popularize it. > > No. RHDAS (citing OEDS) is spot on. There is a large vocabulary of > early 19C > prize-fighting slang (e.g. _smeller_, nose; _claret_, blood, > _victuallingdepartment_ or _office_, stomach). The works of Pierce > Egan (sporting > journalist, editor in 1823 of the last revision of Grose's > Classical Dict. > of the Vulgar Tongue, and creator of the original 'Tom and Jerry') > are its > best repository. > > On 'one-two' my own files offer, inter alia: > > 1819 T. Moore _Tom Crib's Memorial to Congress_ 14: Which t'other > observing_put in_ his ONE-TWO / Between GEORGY'S left ribs, with a > knuckle so true > > 1823 'Jon Bee' _Slang_ 130: One-two (ring) - when both hands are > applied to > the antagonist quickly, he is said to have 'napt one-two' -three, > sometimes;a saying created at Bristol and brouight up to London > > 1848 _Flash Dictionary_ (in _Sinks of London Laid Open_) 118: One > two, two > blows succeeding each other > > > Jonathon Green > From douglas at NB.NET Thu Sep 20 16:57:42 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:57:42 -0400 Subject: Cioppino (a San Francisco dish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>The word is Italian, >>from a Genoese dialect, _ciuppin_, for a fish stew, > >This I can believe (although it leaves open where "ciuppin" derives from) Just a wild guess: a diminutive of something like "ciuppa", cognate with Italian "zuppa" = "soup". "Ciuppin" is very much like "zuppetta", isn't it? [Excerpt from the Web: <<... potete fare un bel "ciuppin", (che vorrebbe dire zuppetta)>>] -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 20 20:08:39 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:08:39 EDT Subject: TLC (tender love and care) Message-ID: I used to work for the Taxi and Limousine Commission, but that's not the TLC that I mean. OED has TLC (tender love and care) from 1960. Was it first used in cookery? This is from Clementine Paddleford's column (a story about Pepperidge Farm) in the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 14 June 1949, pg. 16, col. 8: It is Mrs. Rudkin's claim that every loaf of bread gets a shot of L. T. C. ("loving tender care"). OCLC WorldCat shows a song "T. L. C. (Tender love and care)" by Jimmie Rodgers, 1957. Gerald Cohen's inter-library loan staff might want to get busy again and find this book on Jewish cookery, available at the University of Denver and KSU only: WITH A TOUCH OF T.L.C. Beth Israel Sinai Sisterhood Racine, Wis. 1940-1949 (?) From Ittaob at AOL.COM Thu Sep 20 20:16:32 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:16:32 EDT Subject: TLC (tender love and care) Message-ID: Isn't TLC usually thought of as standing for "tender loving care"? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 20 22:33:21 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:33:21 EDT Subject: Peach Flambe Message-ID: TLC Yes, "tender loving care" is what I'm used to, but these early citations are different. Maybe I'll write to ask if Pepperidge Farm used "LTC" in its ads. -------------------------------------------------------- PEACH FLAMBE Also the plural, Peaches Flambe. Also, Strawberry/Strawberries Flambe. The OED doesn't help much with flaming food datings. I'll have to recheck my French cookbook sources. From Clementine Paddleford's restaurant review of the Newport (48 East Sixtieth St.), 9 July 1949, pg. 7, col. 8: FLAMING THE PEACH--Save room for dessert. One thing you must try now in the time of the peach is peaches flambee. Huge ripe specimens are poached in a peach liquid, then flamed with brandy. A minute now to let the flames dance. Then the spoon lifts the peach high above the hot sauce. A pause, that like a dancer's must be eloquently timed. As the flame gathers force the peach is brought to rest square in the middle of a plate of ice cream. More of the syrup spooned over. The whole show is put on right at your table. Those little fingers of blue flame licking the gold of the peach: it holds one spellbound. PHOTO CAPTION: Mrs. Donald Hardenbrook orders Flambee Peaches, dessert of the month, at the Newport Restaurant. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 20 23:27:26 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:27:26 EDT Subject: Georgia Pecan Pie (1924?) Message-ID: From THIS WEEK magazine, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 17 July 1949, pg. 24, col. 2: HOW AMERICA EATS _Atlanta:_ _GEORGIA PECAN PIE_ by Clementine Paddleford _It's a dream, the way_ _Callie William makes_ _it. And our food editor_ _has found out the recipe_ FOUR states claim pecan pie for their own--Alabama, Tennessee, Mississippi and Georgia. I have eaten this incarnate richness in each of its homelands and my choice goes to the Georgia pie made by Callie Williams, who's made 100 to 150 pies daily for 25 years. Callie is a pecan-pie baker for the Magnolia Tea Room in Rich's Department Store in Atlanta, the biggest and the busiest store, they claim, in the Southeast. The store had been owned by one family for 82 years and for a quarter-century it had held to its corner at Alabama and Broad. Just as many years it has been serving luncheons to shoppers, and pecan pie in particular. Some 3,000 people a day eat at its tables and snack bars. Out of this number, at least 1,000 wrap themselves around a wedge of Callie's nut pie. _Rich Conglomeration_ THIS pecan-pie formular has been polished and brought to perfection for a quarter of a century. The recipe reads like a poem; it eats like a dream. A rich conglomeration of eggs, of corn syrup, of nut halves encased in tender crust and baked to pigskin brown. Young brides-to-be (Col. 3--ed.) --who come to Rich's from other states, to order their trousseaus just as Mama did--have lunch at the store. They eat pecan pie and do as Mama suggests, visit the kitchen to pry the recipe out of Callie. Sometimes she breaks down and tells how she does it. More times she shuts her mouth tight and shakes her head "no." Callie had a record bake for last year--28,960 pecan pies were sliced fresh from the ovens. (...) (Pg. 25, col. 3--ed.) _Callie's Pecan Pie_ 3 whole eggs 2 tablespoons melted butter or margarine 2 tablespoons flour 1/4 teaspoon vanilla 1/8 teaspoon salt 1/2 cup sugar 1 /2 cups dark corn syrup 1 1/2 cups broken pecan halves 1 unbaked 8-inch pie shell Beat eggs; blend in melted butter, flour, vanilla, salt, sugar and syrup. Sprinkle nuts over bottom of unbaked pastry shell. Now gently pour over syrup (425 degrees F.) 10 minutes. Reduce heat to slow (325 degrees F.) and bake about 40 minutes. Yield: one 8-inch pie to serve six. Eat to the strum of banjos! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Sep 20 12:04:13 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:04:13 +0800 Subject: TLC In-Reply-To: <14f.14bd9da.28dbc8b1@aol.com> Message-ID: At 6:33 PM -0400 9/20/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >TLC > [= tender love and care] > Yes, "tender loving care" is what I'm used to, but these early >citations are different. > Maybe I'll write to ask if Pepperidge Farm used "LTC" in its ads. > It's nice to have yet another example to add to my collection, which currently includes: hand-in-glove 'intimate' (before c. 1800, hand and glove was standard) foot-in-mouth disease (usu. as self-conscious pun, but occasionally as naive reanalysis) neck-in-neck (July 2001, baseball context) various misheard/reanalyzed song lyrics, including But is her sweet expression Worth more than my {love an' affection/lovin' affection}? (Supremes "Stop! In the Name of Love") I like {smoke an' lightning/smokin' lightning} (Steppenwolf's "Born to be Wild") and also... beckon call (web sites, commercial companies) and of course spittin'/spit an'/spitten image, which is how come I'm collecting these. Pretty tricky, this neutralization-happy language we've got here. larry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 21 01:23:57 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:23:57 EDT Subject: Submarine Sandwich (Rehoboth Beach, Del.) Message-ID: See the ADS-L archives for my work on "submarine." From THIS WEEK magazine, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 7 August 1949, pg. 24, col. 2: HOW AMERICA EATS _Rehoboth Beach, Del._ _SANDWICH...GIANT-SIZE_ by Clementine Paddleford _The "double submarine"_ _is quite a mouthful._ _Here's how to build one_ IT'S a monster contraption, the double submarine that nosed into sight along the East Coast late in the war. The original spot of its sighting is a matter of contention, but nobody argues over its present home base. Biggest submarine-sandwich fleet in dry dock is built by Jack Twilley's stand-up-and-at-'em snack bar at Rehoboth Beach, Del., most proper summer-resort town. For off the beaten path of epicures is Twilley's little bar, its front opening on Rehoboth's main street. Four Sundays back, we stood there, notebook in one hand, pencil in the other, recording who came to buy "subs" and to get the details of "giant sandwich" construction. _Snack Fare_ LISTENING in, we learned that submarines never miss a beach picnic. They go out to summer suppers, to beer parties, off on boat trips. Women with home freezers buy "subs" in sets of a dozen to freeze, then defrost and serve when the crowd gathers. Another trick with these "Paul Bunyan" tidbits is to wrap tightly in wax paper, chill a few hours, slice crosswise with a sharp knife, eight cuts to a sandwich. Even (Col. 3--ed.) "sub-divisions" are four-bite affairs served as snack fare when the drinks are poured. Want to introduce the submarine to your town? Take a long, soft finger roll, the longer the better, nine inches the length. If you can't get the long rolls, whack off nine-inch cuts of French flute bread or use the long Italian hard rolls. _The Way To Do It_ SPLIT rolls, or bread, lengthwise, almost into halves, but not quite. Flatten like an open book and now to your building. Lay on the following ingredients, one thing on the other, exactly in this order: three thin slices of pressed ham, arranged overlapping; two thin slices provoloni cheese; four crisp leaves of lettuce; four half slices of tomato. Sprinkle with thyme, celery seed and salt; drizzle over olive oil. Add a medium-sized onion cut into thin rings; overlay with four one-half-inch-thick slices of dill pickled peppers--to set a fire in the mouth. Cut the sandwich through the center into two halves and quickly snap it together. Wrap in wax paper and into the refrigerator to chill until picnic time. Figure one to a person; on one submarine you can dine and dine well. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 21 02:11:49 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 22:11:49 EDT Subject: Hero (1949) Message-ID: This beats the later Clementine Paddleford article on the "hero sandwich" that's in the ADS-L archives. I think it's from 1951. From Clementine Paddleford's column in the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 11 August 1949, pg. 11, col. 8: MAIL-BAG--(...) A man without a name writes to tell us to go to the foot of the class regarding Rehoboth Beach's double submarine sandwich which we told how to make in last week's "This Week." "Shucks," writes our reader, "go down to Cherry and Catherine Streets and any little Italian grocery store there can make a sandwich bigger and I'll bet better than the one you reported. Ask for a 'Hero.'" We have. We know all about them. But double submarine is quite a different picnic. It's less Italian, in flavor it's modern America. See last Sunday's "This Week" for the full particulars. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Sep 21 02:32:16 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:32:16 -0500 Subject: George Thompson's 1820s prizefighting jargon Message-ID: On 9/20/01, George Thompson wrote: > >I have very extensive notes regarding the jargon of prizefighting from >U. S. sources of the 1820s. Many represent considerable antedatings to >the HDAS. (They are in the hands of Jesse Sheidlower, along with all >of my notes on Americanisms.) I have had half a mind to submit them to >American Speech or any other journal that will put them on paper and in libraries. ... If no other editors express an interest in publishing this material, please consider _Comments on Etymology_. ---Gerald Cohen (editor, _Comments on Etymology_) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Sep 21 02:34:16 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:34:16 -0500 Subject: Query: "on the may" (1913) Message-ID: Would anyone have any idea what "on the may" means in the quote below (newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_ April 22, 1913, p.16/2-3; title: "Tub and Del Are Leading"): 'The baseball popularity contest is growing hotter. It is going to get hotter and hotter. It will be the hottest thing on the may in a few more weeks. It can't get too hot for The Bulletin. The more votes that are polled for the various players of the Pacific Coast League the hotter it will be. Let the "heat" flow. ...' ---Gerald Cohen From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Sep 21 05:30:48 2001 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 22:30:48 -0700 Subject: More Frenchified? Message-ID: On the phone to the reservation person for the Westin Hotel chain, I asked if she knew how one got from the airport to the hotel in question. She said, several times and very clearly, that I'd have to talk to the "conseeAIR." Could this be because this sounds more French than concierge? It's a new one for me. Rima From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Fri Sep 21 08:07:47 2001 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 03:07:47 -0500 Subject: YOH Message-ID: Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Michael Newman > > e.g. That Falwell's such a fool, yo. > > > > In that usage the 'yo' is downstressed. > > That might be the usage I've been hearing. It has that downstress > which is probably why I think I hear a residual "l" sound from > y'all. I'll try to listen more carefully. > > Benjamin Barrett While you're listening, think of another possibility: maybe the final element could be approximated as "y'o" -- with some approximation of a glottal stop in the middle, or at least two separate vowels rather than a diphthong. I think that's what I've heard more than once. The tone pattern of "such a fool y'o" (with "such a" reduced to CVC followed by an echo vowel of comparatively short length) comes out 2-3-2_falling. That marks "fool" as a specially stressed element, which makes sense in this context. My suggested reading is that this "yo" is not at all the same as the Philly yo or the Army way of answering roll call. If that possible glottal stop is more than my imagination, I'd suggest that this phrase-final yo represents a second shortening of "y'know": "That Falwell's such a fool, y'know." My bet about most uses of standalone "yo" as a response (as in, e.g., "Hey, George, you've got a phone call" "Yo") is that it does come out of the Army. You could properly translate the short "yo" with this long phrase: "I acknowledge the fact that you want ME, in particular, to pay attention, and I signal that I'm doing so." -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! IN MEMORIAM: Peggy Salovesh 25 January 1932 -- 3 March 2001 From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Fri Sep 21 08:39:22 2001 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 03:39:22 -0500 Subject: Bapopik Message-ID: I feel inundated by the good words about Barry that have come from the real heavyweights on this list. What could be left to say after the Word has come down from OED, Merriam Webster, Barnhart, and so many points east and west? I'm just a retired semi-pro in dialect studies. I won't defend Barry or his contributions to ADS-L because they need no defense. All I want to do is take this opportunity to say "Thank you, Barry. I stand in awe of your diligence, your relevance, and the high quality of your contributions to this list. Your messages brighten my day." Sure, Barry goes a bit crotchety at times. Who doesn't? And yes, there are days when I think I'll scream the next time he sends in a long list of names of cocktails as served in Tel Aviv's Bar Mitzvah or some Saskatoon Saloon. That's why I have a delete button on my keyboard. As for me, I wouldn't dream of erasing anything Barry sends to ADS-L until I've read every single word of it. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! IN MEMORIAM: Peggy Salovesh 25 January 1932 -- 3 March 2001 From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Sep 21 10:38:27 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 06:38:27 -0400 Subject: Barry, help! Message-ID: On another list the subject of the earliest example of oyster, mountain oyster, and rocky mountain oyster was posted. OED was reported with 1890 (acutally Cent. Dict. is the source in the late 20th century OED supplement by Robert W. Burchfield). I've poked about a little and found the following for mountain oyster: And, if they choosed, to partake of the dainty of cruelty caught and primitively cooked "mountain oysters"--always found in great abundance where many calves are herded. Baxley, H. Willis, _What I saw on the west coast of South and North America, and at the Hawaiian Islands_. New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1865, p 442 It would not be unreasonable to expect an earlier dating, would it, Barry? Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 21 13:03:24 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:03:24 -0400 Subject: Barry, help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, I assume this list also queried the dating of the variants "prairie oyster" and "Kentucky oyster"? dInIs >On another list the subject of the earliest example of oyster, mountain >oyster, and rocky mountain oyster was posted. OED was reported with >1890 (acutally Cent. Dict. is the source in the late 20th century OED >supplement by Robert W. Burchfield). I've poked about a little and >found the following for mountain oyster: > >And, if they choosed, to partake of the dainty of cruelty caught and >primitively cooked "mountain oysters"--always found in great abundance >where many calves are herded. Baxley, H. Willis, _What I saw on the >west coast of South and North America, and at the Hawaiian Islands_. >New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1865, p 442 > >It would not be unreasonable to expect an earlier dating, would it, >Barry? > >Regards, >David > >barnhart at highlands.com -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 21 00:57:38 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:57:38 +0800 Subject: More Frenchified? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:30 PM -0700 9/20/01, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >On the phone to the reservation person for the Westin Hotel chain, I >asked if she knew how one got from the airport to the hotel in >question. She said, several times and very clearly, that I'd have to >talk to the "conseeAIR." > >Could this be because this sounds more French than concierge? It's a >new one for me. > I'm sure it is. The hyper-Frenchification I've noticed most often is "COO D'GRAH" for coup de grace. The rule seems to be "don't pronounce the last consonant", period. At least in your case the reservation person might have had extra motivation for avoiding the final -rzh cluster, but there's certainly no similar excuse for avoiding [gras]. larry From mnewman at QC.EDU Fri Sep 21 13:28:33 2001 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:28:33 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: > >While you're listening, think of another possibility: maybe the final >element could be approximated as "y'o" -- with some approximation of a >glottal stop in the middle, or at least two separate vowels rather than a >diphthong. I think that's what I've heard more than once. The tone pattern >of "such a fool y'o" (with "such a" reduced to CVC followed by an echo >vowel of comparatively short length) comes out 2-3-2_falling. That marks >"fool" as a specially stressed element, which makes sense in this >context. I'll listen to it, and I can even use a CSL to rule it in or out, but I doubt that there is a glottal stop. The speakers *believe* it is the same yo. I can't show the intonation patterns here because I'd have to get my tapes and relisten, but for what it's worth, here are some real examples of various uses of 'yo' as spoken by three Queens, NY teens. What's striking is the versatility. The one's in clause final position are indeed downstressed, I'm pretty sure. Names are pseudonyms, and transcriptions are by the person referred to as "Kareem" in the text. I offer no interpretations because I haven't been focusing on the issue yet. I welcome anyone else's. Examples from Darryl (mixed Jamaican-Am/Af. Am) high school junior good student/ rap artist -think in, in um, yo any type of music you listen to, anything you listen to you have that certain degree of slang, -People rhyme, like yo, you met Malik? -it's like when you in a situation, you can see it for all the (?) but if you look from the outside you could see the situation, whereas I speak it so I can't really say yo. -Havin a conversation with Karim is like something totally piss. Yo he'll make you think so much, it's like ridiculous the things he comes up wit. It's like real creative, but kinda bugged out, yo. - I mean, he says, why do 7-11's have locks, if they're open 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Like he says things like that, like yo, it's true, but yo, who thinks about stuff like that. Examples from Rashid (Af. Am gang member)-sorry about the violent descriptions. -I mean if me and you was runnin from the police and there was a song in the background and I heard the song all night long, two years later when we hear dat song we gonna go yo, remember that night. -Yeah breakin, I am sayin, breakin is cool yo. If you know how to do it it's cool me personally, know what I mean? that's not my, that's not my, I don't flip for break dancing, -so me n him was on my footfall in front of the Chinese restaurant, and he was tellin, he was like yo, I just picked a package up, know what I mean? -I waited like twenty minutes then I went back outside, went back outside I see this thing, I'm like "yo, son, remember that gun shot?" he was like "yeah." "Yo, what happen?" He was like "Yo man, po lice got bagged." I wuz like "word" I was like "what happened? " Examples from Jorge (mixed Dominican/Ecuadorian hs. junior honor roll student/rap artist) -then Kareem was like yo ya'll should make a track...and I was like aight ...we gone make a track dissin' this nigga. -I told him yo were battlin' He's like aight come on ..I told him about why I wanna battle him. He's like "yo I ain't tryin to steal your image or your flow." I'm like what ever..... -Andre just got mad sothen for like the whole year, even up yo like the beginin of this year, I aint speak to him. -He speaks Spanish. Hilarrius, he came up to me just a week ago. He was like, "yo, you wanna do a song in Spanish?" I was like, "I got no problem." I could work with him. -- Michael Newman Assistant Professor of Applied Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 21 13:39:08 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:39:08 EDT Subject: Mexican Strawberry; La Mordida Message-ID: The great Mike S. (from Chicagah) is back on the list! For Mike and the OED, here are two Mexican "M" entries. I'll try to give you a Clementine Paddleford "Margarita" and "Chicago Pizza" soon. If he hadn't been following: the "hot dog" war is over and the "Tad Dorgan" myth is officially dead. However, the Chicago 1893 World's Fair "Windy City" myth forever continues. I told the Chicago Tribune in June, then the Columbus Dispatch in July, then the Organization of News Ombudsmen, then the Chicago Tribune got it wrong again in August, then I went ballistic... -------------------------------------------------------- MEXICAN STRAWBERRY OED can receive this help from DARE: "See _strawberry cactus_." There is one hit on the MOA database from the 1850s. From HOW AMERICA EATS, "ALBUQUERQUE: The Pink Bean," THIS WEEK, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 6 March 1949, pg. 48, col. 2: SOMETHING to behold is the southwesterner's appetite for the pinto. That's the bean called pink, called frijole, called the Mexican strawberry. -------------------------------------------------------- LA MORDIDA From THIS WEEK, NYHT, 12 December 1948, pg. 34, col. 1: _MEXICO'S WAR ON THE "BITE"_ _That's the Mexicans' pet name for the tradition_ _of bribery--but it no longer signifies affection._ _Now press and government are swinging into action_ (...) That's the bribe--or, as the Mexicans call it, _la mordida_. Springing from the perpetual pinch of poverty, the _mordida_ has been an age-old custom so generally accepted and so widely practiced that it long ago gained the orthodoxy of an institution. From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Sep 21 13:43:45 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:43:45 -0400 Subject: Mexican Strawberry; La Mordida In-Reply-To: <64.1381fe11.28dc9cfd@aol.com>; from Bapopik@AOL.COM on Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 09:39:08AM -0400 Message-ID: > -------------------------------------------------------- > LA MORDIDA > > From THIS WEEK, NYHT, 12 December 1948, pg. 34, col. 1: > > _MEXICO'S WAR ON THE "BITE"_ > _That's the Mexicans' pet name for the tradition_ > _of bribery--but it no longer signifies affection._ > _Now press and government are swinging into action_ > (...) > That's the bribe--or, as the Mexicans call it, _la mordida_. Springing from the perpetual pinch of poverty, the _mordida_ has been an age-old custom so generally accepted and so widely practiced that it long ago gained the orthodoxy of an institution. 1940 _Life_ 2 Dec. 102 In Mexico, and throughout Latin America, it is next to impossible to make headway with petty officials without constant applications of the _mordida,_ which literally translated means 'the bite', or bribe. Jesse Sheidlower OED From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 21 13:57:55 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:57:55 -0400 Subject: More Frenchified? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, Give an ear to classical music stations and you will hear Frenchification in languages other than French, in this case final-stress placement. Since it is my father-tongue, I suppose I am oversensitive to this in Hungarian (which always places stress on the first syllable) when such oddities as barTOK and koDALY (the latter even with, amazingly, more or less correct realization of the final -daly syllable) surface. dInIs >At 10:30 PM -0700 9/20/01, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >>On the phone to the reservation person for the Westin Hotel chain, I >>asked if she knew how one got from the airport to the hotel in >>question. She said, several times and very clearly, that I'd have to >>talk to the "conseeAIR." >> >>Could this be because this sounds more French than concierge? It's a >>new one for me. >> >I'm sure it is. The hyper-Frenchification I've noticed most often is >"COO D'GRAH" for coup de grace. The rule seems to be "don't >pronounce the last consonant", period. At least in your case the >reservation person might have had extra motivation for avoiding the >final -rzh cluster, but there's certainly no similar excuse for >avoiding [gras]. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 21 02:03:09 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:03:09 +0800 Subject: More Frenchified? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:57 AM -0400 9/21/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >larry, > >Give an ear to classical music stations and you will hear >Frenchification in languages other than French, in this case >final-stress placement. Since it is my father-tongue, I suppose I am >oversensitive to this in Hungarian (which always places stress on the >first syllable) when such oddities as barTOK and koDALY (the latter >even with, amazingly, more or less correct realization of the final >-daly syllable) surface. > >dInIs > And presumably not entirely explainable by the announcer having spent his/her formative years listening to classical music broadcasts in France or Quebec. Well, French is the language of culture, after all. Then of course there's the hyperforeignist [zh] for [j] (Taj Mahal, the Raj, Beijing) we've discussed on the list, again (we assume) influenced by the same redundancy rule, [+ exotic]==>[+ French]. larry From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 21 14:31:04 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:31:04 -0400 Subject: More Frenchified? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, These are very fruitful grounds for research, but, unfortunately, we usually cite only isolated examples across a wide range of phenomena. For a notable exception to that complaint see Charles Boberg's excellent treatment of "foreign a" in English (British and US) in the Journal of Language and Social Psychology (Vol. 18, No. 1, March 1999). Even that excellent article leaves some interesting unanswered questions - /paekIstaen, /pakIstan/, and /pakIstaen/ but (so far as I can hear) no /paekIstan/. Odd that pronunciation of "loan words" in English usually gets only a prescriptivist glance when, for example, the study of loan-word phonology in, say, Japanese is a major linguistic subindustry. Of course, lexicographers are on the lookout for the emerging (or emerged) "speech community" standards for such items, but that does not satisfy the linguistic curiosity about the phonological processes at work. dInIs >At 9:57 AM -0400 9/21/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>larry, >> >>Give an ear to classical music stations and you will hear >>Frenchification in languages other than French, in this case >>final-stress placement. Since it is my father-tongue, I suppose I am >>oversensitive to this in Hungarian (which always places stress on the >>first syllable) when such oddities as barTOK and koDALY (the latter >>even with, amazingly, more or less correct realization of the final >>-daly syllable) surface. >> >>dInIs >> >And presumably not entirely explainable by the announcer having spent >his/her formative years listening to classical music broadcasts in >France or Quebec. Well, French is the language of culture, after >all. Then of course there's the hyperforeignist [zh] for [j] (Taj >Mahal, the Raj, Beijing) we've discussed on the list, again (we >assume) influenced by the same redundancy rule, >[+ exotic]==>[+ French]. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From gbarrett at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Sep 21 15:13:08 2001 From: gbarrett at COLUMBIA.EDU (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:13:08 -0400 Subject: High-Rise Terminals or Uptalk Message-ID: A Guardian article covering uptalk around the world. Not very academic, but interesting. http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,555379,00.html "Strictly speaking, uptalk is not brand new. But it is travelling fast and may be reaching critical mass. Even Danny DeVito's son does it, as he told a conference on teenagers hosted by Bill'n'Hill at the White House last year: "He uptalks, my son. You know what uptalk is? You know, like, where they don't end a sentence and they keep talking like this... and if you take the arteries and capillaries and veins in your body and you stretch them all around you can go four times around the world." Then he went on to say: "But uptalk is really interesting. You've probably experienced it, like all the doctors and people who have studied it. I think it comes from kids who want to be heard, and they're afraid that if they stop, adults are going to cut them off." -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Sep 21 15:26:23 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:26:23 -0400 Subject: Barry, help! Message-ID: On the variations for _mountain oyster_, I found in the DA _prairie oyster_ (only as a variant of _prairie cocktail_, which is not a testicle). _Kentucky oyster_ in DA is equated with chittlings, not testicles. OEDs attests the equivalence of _mountain oyster_ and _prairie oyster_ in a second def. MOA shows not examples of either _prairie oyster_ or _Kentucky oyster_. Regards, David preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU,Net writes: >I assume this list also queried the dating of the variants "prairie >oyster" and "Kentucky oyster"? >dInIs >>On another list the subject of the earliest example of oyster, mountain >>oyster, and rocky mountain oyster was posted. OED was reported with >>1890 (acutally Cent. Dict. is the source in the late 20th century OED >>supplement by Robert W. Burchfield). I've poked about a little and >>found the following for mountain oyster: >> >>And, if they choosed, to partake of the dainty of cruelty caught and >>primitively cooked "mountain oysters"--always found in great abundance >>where many calves are herded. Baxley, H. Willis, _What I saw on the >>west coast of South and North America, and at the Hawaiian Islands_. >>New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1865, p 442 >> From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 21 15:51:47 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:51:47 -0400 Subject: Barry, help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Us Louisvillians who sat around munching on pickled Kentucky oysters in bars in the 50s and 60s can tell a chitterling from a testicle. dInIs >On the variations for _mountain oyster_, I found in the DA _prairie >oyster_ (only as a variant of _prairie cocktail_, which is not a >testicle). _Kentucky oyster_ in DA is equated with chittlings, not >testicles. OEDs attests the equivalence of _mountain oyster_ and >_prairie oyster_ in a second def. MOA shows not examples of either >_prairie oyster_ or _Kentucky oyster_. > >Regards, >David > > >preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU,Net writes: >>I assume this list also queried the dating of the variants "prairie >>oyster" and "Kentucky oyster"? > >>dInIs > >>>On another list the subject of the earliest example of oyster, mountain >>>oyster, and rocky mountain oyster was posted. OED was reported with >>>1890 (acutally Cent. Dict. is the source in the late 20th century OED >>>supplement by Robert W. Burchfield). I've poked about a little and >>>found the following for mountain oyster: >>> >>>And, if they choosed, to partake of the dainty of cruelty caught and >>>primitively cooked "mountain oysters"--always found in great abundance >>>where many calves are herded. Baxley, H. Willis, _What I saw on the >>>west coast of South and North America, and at the Hawaiian Islands_. >>>New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1865, p 442 >>> -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From lisawitt at GTE.NET Fri Sep 21 16:40:41 2001 From: lisawitt at GTE.NET (Lisa Wittenberg Hillyard) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:40:41 -0800 Subject: announcing newest little ADS member Message-ID: Nancy Elliott wrote: > i'd say his rhoticity is pretty much a done deal, with caucasian parents > from detroit and kansas city and being raised in orygun... the burning > question for me is, will he have the pin-pen merger? > > nancy, typing with one hand while holding a baby with the other > It appears that nancy has gone native since she does not refer to the state as ore-gone. Which is a true marker in this neck of the woods. writing east of portland in a little town called Boring. -lisa From douglas at NB.NET Fri Sep 21 16:03:57 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:03:57 -0400 Subject: ["yo" examples] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I offer no interpretations because I haven't been focusing on the issue >yet. I welcome anyone else's. Here are my offhand ones. >-think in, in um, yo any type of music ... = thinkin' in, um -- hey -- any type of music ... [?] >... like yo, you met Malik? = ... like, 'Hey, you met Malik?' >... whereas I speak it so I can't really say yo. Looks as though it might be M. Salovesh's "y'know". [I note "whereas": I use it like this but some find it peculiar (pretentious?).] >-Havin a conversation with Karim is like something totally piss. Yo >he'll make you think so much, it's like ridiculous the things he >comes up wit. It's like real creative, but kinda bugged out, yo. One = "hey", one again like "y'know" (likely). >... like yo, it's true, but yo, who thinks about stuff like that. = "... like yeah [OR hey], it's true, but, hey, who thinks about stuff like that?" >... we gonna go yo, remember that night. = "... we gonna go, 'Hey, remember that night.' >... I am sayin, breakin is cool yo. Looks like "y'know" again. >... he was like yo, I just picked a package up, know what I mean? "Yo" = "Hey" again. Can the "know what I mean?" be freely replaced with that final "yo"? >-I waited like twenty minutes then I went back outside, went back >outside I see this thing, I'm like "yo, son, remember that gun shot?" >he was like "yeah." "Yo, what happen?" He was like "Yo man, po lice >got bagged." I wuz like "word" I was like "what happened? " "Yo" = "Hey". >-then Kareem was like yo ya'll should make a track... "Yo" = "Hey". >-I told him yo were battlin' ...He's like "yo I ain't tryin to steal >your image or your flow." ... First "yo" = "you" or "y'all", second = "Hey". >-Andre just got mad sothen for like the whole year, even up yo like >the beginin of this year, I aint speak to him. Don't know. >... "yo, you wanna do a song in Spanish?"... "Yo" = "Hey" again. All the "yo = hey" examples would have looked natural to me with "hey" decades ago, I think. I picture the OED's first example of "yo" (1420) as similar to this [but maybe I'm misconstruing it]: "3aw thar suche him no mare" = "Yo there, seek him no more" = "Hey there, seek him no more". The terminal "yo" might be "y'know". Perhaps it could be a vocative "y'all", at least in some cases. With different stress/intonation perhaps, it could be "hey" again, or the stereotypical Canadian "eh". As a likely irrelevancy, I note that Japanese has an 'emphatic' (I think maybe sort of 'masculine-sounding') terminal particle "yo": is this used in the recent TV 'Japanimation' by any chance? -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 21 04:21:37 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:21:37 +0800 Subject: Barry, help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:26 AM -0400 9/21/01, Barnhart wrote: >On the variations for _mountain oyster_, I found in the DA _prairie >oyster_ (only as a variant of _prairie cocktail_, which is not a >testicle). _Kentucky oyster_ in DA is equated with chittlings, not >testicles. OEDs attests the equivalence of _mountain oyster_ and >_prairie oyster_ in a second def. MOA shows not examples of either >_prairie oyster_ or _Kentucky oyster_. > >Regards, >David > More graphically, the AHD4 (like other sources, including the OED, as you mention) provides these two referents for "prairie oyster", quite distinct from each other except presumably in their texture. You could even eat one and wash it down with the other. Or not. 1. Slang A drink made from a whole raw egg yolk, Worcestershire sauce, hot sauce, salt, and pepper that is taken as a palliative for a hangover or as a cure for hiccups. 2. Chiefly Western U.S. The testis of a calf, cooked and served as food. From douglas at NB.NET Fri Sep 21 16:35:06 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:35:06 -0400 Subject: Query: "on the may" (1913) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Would anyone have any idea what "on the may" means in the quote below >(newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_ April 22, 1913, p.16/2-3; title: >"Tub and Del Are Leading"): > > 'The baseball popularity contest is growing hotter. It is going >to get hotter and hotter. It will be the hottest thing on the may in >a few more weeks. It can't get too hot for The Bulletin. The more >votes that are polled for the various players of the Pacific Coast >League the hotter it will be. Let the "heat" flow. ...' Only speculation. The only "the may" which comes to mind is "the May festival", as in "Queen of the May". The date (22 April) is consistent with "on the may" = "in May". May Day is generally 1 May, isn't it (not "a few weeks" after 22 April)? Possibly the expression is elliptical (or even a typographical error) for "on the May [calendar/agenda/schedule/whatever]". -- Doug Wilson From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Sep 21 16:39:18 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:39:18 -0400 Subject: FW: Query: "on the may" (1913) Message-ID: Adding to what Doug W says below, I thought that, in West Coast cities who back then had only minor league teams locally, May was likely the time that the minors got started, or at least got into gear. A check of the old schedules might show this (or not). But again, this would call for a capital M May. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Douglas G. Wilson Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 12:35 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Query: "on the may" (1913) > Would anyone have any idea what "on the may" means in the quote below >(newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_ April 22, 1913, p.16/2-3; title: >"Tub and Del Are Leading"): > > 'The baseball popularity contest is growing hotter. It is going >to get hotter and hotter. It will be the hottest thing on the may in >a few more weeks. It can't get too hot for The Bulletin. The more >votes that are polled for the various players of the Pacific Coast >League the hotter it will be. Let the "heat" flow. ...' Only speculation. The only "the may" which comes to mind is "the May festival", as in "Queen of the May". The date (22 April) is consistent with "on the may" = "in May". May Day is generally 1 May, isn't it (not "a few weeks" after 22 April)? Possibly the expression is elliptical (or even a typographical error) for "on the May [calendar/agenda/schedule/whatever]". -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 21 20:08:02 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:08:02 EDT Subject: New York: Capital du monde (1949) Message-ID: NEW YORK: CAPITAL OF THE WORLD (continued) "New York: Capitale du monde" is the title of a piece in THIS WEEK magazine, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 18 September 1949, pg. 6. From Page 7: SINCE London and Paris joined Rome and Athens in the shadows of dimmed glory, the Capital of the World has crossed the Atlantic and settled in New York. (Current Mayor Rudy Giuliani re-popularized the phrase, which has not been used much the past 10 days--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- UNACCUSTOMED AS I AM TO PUBLIC SPEAKING... George Thompson was interested in this phrase. "Unaccustomed As I Am..." is the title above a priceless baby photo in the same THIS WEEK, NYHT, 18 September 1949, pg. 16. -------------------------------------------------------- TUNNEL VISION OED has 1949. From THIS WEEK, NYHT, 11 September 1949, pg. 13: _THREE MILLION "BLIND" DRIVERS_ _The startling story of "tunnel vision" and_ _other treacherous eye defects that make too_ _many motorists potential killers. Few know if_ _they're affected, much less what to do about it_ (JSTOR should have something on this...Attached is from the Chicago Public Library. I tried again.--ed.) -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Subject: Chicago Public Library Information Request Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:56:28 +0100 Size: 1196 URL: From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Sep 22 00:08:35 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:08:35 -0500 Subject: "on the may"--typo for "on the way" Message-ID: My thanx to Frank Abate and Douglas Wilson for their attempts to unravel "on the may." Since this item doesn't ring a bell with the ads-l list, and since there is no repeat of the item in all the other 1913 baseball articles I've read, I think I see the solution: "may" here is a typo for "way." The baseball popularity contest will be the hottest thing coming down the pike ("on the way") in a few weeks. >Would anyone have any idea what "on the may" means in the quote below >(newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_ April 22, 1913, p.16/2-3; title: >"Tub and Del Are Leading"): > > 'The baseball popularity contest is growing hotter. It is going >to get hotter and hotter. It will be the hottest thing on the may in >a few more weeks. It can't get too hot for The Bulletin. The more >votes that are polled for the various players of the Pacific Coast >League the hotter it will be. Let the "heat" flow. ...' ---Gerald Cohen From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sat Sep 22 03:25:22 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:25:22 -0700 Subject: More Frenchified? Message-ID: Rima: > On the phone to the reservation person for the Westin Hotel chain, I > asked if she knew how one got from the airport to the hotel in > question. She said, several times and very clearly, that I'd have to > talk to the "conseeAIR." > > Could this be because this sounds more French than concierge? It's a > new one for me. If it were real French, wouldn't it be "conseeairzhe"? Anne Gilbert From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 22 03:32:08 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 23:32:08 EDT Subject: Shop Talk of the Texas Bond Man (1960) Message-ID: SHOP TALK OF THE TEXAS BOND MAN A Glossary of Words and Phrases from the Professional Vocabulary of Those Who Deal in Municipal Bonds MUNICIPAL ADVISORY COUNCIL OF TEXAS 1960 Jesse Sheidlower was interested in the "muni," so Gerald Cohen kindly inter-library loaned and copied this 15-page book. It doesn't have "muni," it doesn't have much slang, and it's not of much interest. Perhaps "Take-Or-Pay" or "Turkey" can be used. The terms are: Pg. 1: Account Letter; Account Manager; Advertised Sale; Assessed Valuation; Assumed Bonds; Attorney General. Pg. 2: Authority; Average Life; Balloon Maturity; Bank Maturities; Basis Book; Basis Point; Basis Price; Bid Form; Blue List. Pg. 3: Bond Buyer's Index; Bond Order (Ordinance)(Resolution); Bond Year; Callable; Circular; City; Closed Lien; Combination Bonds. Pg. 4: Comptroller of Public Accounts; Concession; Confirmation; Coupon Bonds; Cover; Coverage; Current Tax Collections. Pg. 5: Customer Count; Debt Limitation; Debt Service Requirements; Default; Discount; Eastern Account; Effective Interest Rate. Pg. 6: Facsimile Signature; Financial Advisor; Financing Agreement; Firm; Fiscal Year; Flat. Pg. 7: Floating Debt; Floating Supply; Flow of Funds; General Obligations; General Purpose; Graduated Coupon; Historical Account; Interest Cost. Pg. 8: Interest Stop; Intermediate Maturities; Invoice; Joint Account; Legal Opinion; Limited Tax Bonds; Long Maturities; Mandatory Call; Negotiated Deal. Pg. 9: Net Debt; Non-Voted Bonds; Odd Lot; Offering Sale; Open End; Optional; Overlapping Debt; Over Sales; Parity Bonds. Pg. 10: Paying Agent; Payment Record; Personal Property; Point; Pre-Election Contract; Premium; Price. Pg. 11: Private Deal; Prospectus; Rating; Re-Allowance; Real Property; Refunding; Registrable Bonds; Reserve Fund; Revenue Bonds. Pg. 12: Secondary Market; Self Supporting Debt; Serial Bonds; Spread; State Aid; Step-Up; Supplemental Coupons. Pg. 13: Syndicate; Take-Down; Take-Or-Pay ("A term used to describe a type of contract under which the party who stands ready to deliver a commodity or to render a service is guaranteed a minimum payment whether or not the party who is to use the commodity or service actually availas himself of the right for which he is bound to pay."); Tax Levy; Tax Limitations; Tax Rate. Pg. 14: Tax Year; Term Bonds; Texas Municipal Report; Time Warrants; Turkey ("An underwriting deal on which you lose your shirt."); Unlimited Tax Bonds. Pg. 15: Visible Supply; Voted Bonds; Water District; Western Account; When Issued; Yield. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 22 04:37:35 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 00:37:35 EDT Subject: Dutch Apple Pie (Stouffer's of Ohio, 1922); Palace Court Salad Message-ID: See the archives for other posts on these two American dishes. Paddleford discusses them here in greater depth. In the (archived) 1938 "Dutch apple pie" article, Paddleford had left off the "Stouffer's" brand name, perhaps because of newspaper policy at that time. -------------------------------------------------------- DUTCH APPLE PIE From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 19 November 1949, pg. 9, col. 7: _Battle Over Apple Pie Still Rages_ ------------------------------- _Postcard Voters Stress Their Favorites; Story of_ _the Dutch Variety, at Stouffer's, Is Told_ By Clementine Paddleford (...) DUTCH PIE--(...) The pie is Stouffer's Dutch apple. It's the pie Mrs. A. E. Stouffer baked for her son Vernon to sell at asummer stand he set up in Dad's creamery in Cleveland, Ohio, around 1922. Vernon, home from college for a summer vacation, wanted to earn money and decided on a lunch stand. Dad supplied the buttermilk. Mom made the pie and the lad made money. Once Cleveland had tasted the Dutch apple pie, Vernon's business kept the whole family busy. Folks came for whole pies. By summer's end Mother was buying apples by the bushel and flour by the 100-pound bag. DAD TAKES OVER--Dad Stouffer, seeing Vernon's summer success, decided the food business might offer a better return than a creamery. He sold the place and opened a little restaurant on Ninth Street just off Euclid Avenue. Toasted sandwiches, buttermilk and the Dutch apple pie made up the menu. In less than a year the small place had a waiting line at the door, waiting for pie. (Stouffer's info deleted--ed.)(Col. 8--ed.) The pie shells measuring ten inches wide hold a full quart of the diced apples. Over the fruit goes a mixture of flour, sugar, milk and plenty of cinnamon, then quickly now into the oven. The up-jutting edges of the apple crisply brown and every last chunk of the fruit takes on a syrupy shine. Cut a slice and notice how juicy and soft. The crust is thin and flaky, tender under the fork. Neither too long nor too short. It is made with as little liquid as possible, this being the only way to get pastry that doesn't soak the juice when fruit-filled. But not a steely crust either, unwilling to accept a few artful advances from the apple. -------------------------------------------------------- PALACE COURT SALAD From THIS WEEK magazine, NYHT, 11 September 1949, pg. 44, col. 2: HOW AMERICA EATS _San Francisco..._ _PALACE COURT SALAD_ By Clementine Paddleford _It could star on any menu--especially_ _with these world-famous dressings..._ "THERE is a Central Court into which carriages can be driven rising the full seven stories of the hotel past balustraded galleries to an opaque glass roof." This excerpt from a San Francisco newspaper dated 1875 described the entrance to the incredible halls of the newly opened Palace Hotel. Then the world could scarcely believe what it saw: walls two feet thick, a quarter of a mile in circumference, enclosing an area of two-and-one-half acres; seven stories, 800 rooms, a dining room 150 feet long. The Palace Hotel is still a world-famous hostelry but less amazing to this generation, surrounded as we are by architectural miracles. Yet no gourmet even today would think of visiting San Francisco and not dining at the Palace. I went knowing exactly what I wanted to eat: the Palace Court Salad. In its own small way it's an architectural wonder. _Tower of Delight_ THE cobblestoned central court is now the Garden Court dining room. There the salad stars on the menu: a tower of delight. Do it this way: Salad base is shredded lettuce cut fine as fine--use the scissors. Make a half-inch thick mattress of the shreds to almost cover the plate. Center on this a thick slice of tomato, now a large heart of artichoke (these you buy canned), turn cup side up resting on tomato. Fill the cup with cooked crab meat, cooked shrimp or diced white meat of chicken marinated in French dressing and very well drained. Build the tower spoonful by spoonful to a peak five inches tall from the base of the artichoke. Over this dip three or four tablespoons of the Thousand Islang Dressing as (Col. 3--ed.) it is made at the Palace. Add two tablespoons sieved yolk of hard-cooked egg to bank the base of the salad like a golden wedding band. Umm--a good dressing! (Recipes for Thousand Island Dressing and Green-Goddess Dressing follow...The "Garden Court" was called the "Palm Court" before 1942--ed.) From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Sat Sep 22 11:26:38 2001 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 06:26:38 -0500 Subject: Shop Talk of the Texas Bond Man (1960) Message-ID: A legendary bond salesman once sold "MPT's" Milwaukee Pay Toilet revenue bonds guaranteed by the income from pay toilets in munincipal buildingss in Milwaukee. Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > SHOP TALK > OF > THE TEXAS BOND MAN [snip] > > A From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Sat Sep 22 11:50:49 2001 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 06:50:49 -0500 Subject: forgot to... Message-ID: "Paul M. Johnson" wrote: > > A legendary bond salesman once sold "MPT's" Milwaukee Pay Toilet revenue > bonds guaranteed by the income from pay toilets in munincipal buildings. Forgot to add there were no such bonds > in Milwaukee. > Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > > > SHOP TALK > > OF > > THE TEXAS BOND MAN > [snip] > > > > A From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Sep 22 12:33:37 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 08:33:37 -0400 Subject: "on the may"--typo for "on the way" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think Gerald Cohen has solved this, with a simple but subtly brilliant bit of textual criticism. Textual critics, try to divine the best text they can from ancient manuscripts, apply the principle of "lectio difficilior". It basically means that when faced with alternatives in a text, choose the one that is harder to justify ('the more difficult reading'). GC has applied the reverse logic here, and rightly. Frank Abate From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Sat Sep 22 15:17:52 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 11:17:52 -0400 Subject: Shop Talk of the Texas Bond Man (1960) Message-ID: "Take or pay" is quite a bit older than 1960. From 1941: >>A provision in said contract known as the 'take or pay' clause requires the purchaser to take a minimum amount of gas annually and in the event such a quantity is not taken by the purchaser, he is obligated to pay a sum equivalent to the amount computed as the minimum requirements, but the purchaser thereby becomes entitled to a credit upon the future delivery of gas.<< In re Michigan Consolidated Gas Co., Release No. 35-2532, 8 S.E.C. 550 (Jan. 30, 1941). The term is a common one in finance. See, e.g., http://www.investorwords.com/t1.htm#takeorpaycontract. It derives from the once-common contractual formulation that a buyer will "take and pay for" the thing sold. Nowadays buyers usually agree to "purchase and pay for" things. I remember the popular slang use of "turkey" in the 1970s to describe an inadequate person or thing, and it's sometimes still used in the securities field to describe a security that has performed poorly. I wasn't aware that it ever had such a specific meaning as that given below. I see from the OED Supplement (I'm traveling and don't have access to the online version at the moment) that "turkey" was used to mean a show business flop by 1927. John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [SMTP:Bapopik at AOL.COM] > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 11:32 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Shop Talk of the Texas Bond Man (1960) > > SHOP TALK > OF > THE TEXAS BOND MAN > > A Glossary of Words and Phrases > from the Professional Vocabulary of > Those Who Deal in Municipal Bonds > > MUNICIPAL ADVISORY COUNCIL OF TEXAS > 1960 > > Jesse Sheidlower was interested in the "muni," so Gerald Cohen kindly > inter-library loaned and copied this 15-page book. > It doesn't have "muni," it doesn't have much slang, and it's not of > much interest. Perhaps "Take-Or-Pay" or "Turkey" can be used. > The terms are: > > > Pg. 13: Syndicate; Take-Down; Take-Or-Pay ("A term used to describe a > type of contract under which the party who stands ready to deliver a > commodity or to render a service is guaranteed a minimum payment whether > or not the party who is to use the commodity or service actually availas > himself of the right for which he is bound to pay."); Tax Levy; Tax > Limitations; Tax Rate. > > Pg. 14: Tax Year; Term Bonds; Texas Municipal Report; Time Warrants; > Turkey ("An underwriting deal on which you lose your shirt."); Unlimited > Tax Bonds. > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 22 16:26:20 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 12:26:20 EDT Subject: "Butter Pecan" mystery (1949) Message-ID: There's a "butter pecan" mystery that's far, far greater than "pecan pie." I found a 1949 cite yesterday, but it's temporarily lost. There are over 10,000 "butter pecan" web hits. "Butter Pecan" is not in Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK, not in OED, not in M-W, not before 1951 in OCLC WorldCat, not in American Memory, not in Periodicals Contents Index, only four piddly hits on the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office online site... Does OED have any files? Barnhardt? From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Sat Sep 22 16:38:53 2001 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 12:38:53 -0400 Subject: cabbie-joint Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Pulliam" To: Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 10:05 Subject: cabbie-joint > It's probably just new to me, but my Indian students introduced this > term to me last night in class--it refers to an otherwise > little-known restaurant frequented and publicized by cab drivers. New York Press refers to them as "cab stands" in their annual Best Of issue. Not too far off, given that a) NYC lacks proper cab stands, except outside the Port Authority bus terminal, and perhaps Penn Station, and b) you can get cabs there pretty easy. Along with a meal. bkd From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Sat Sep 22 17:12:06 2001 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 10:12:06 -0700 Subject: 24/7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 24/7 originated in AAE, as found in Smitherman's _Black Talk_ (2000), p. 288. --- Barnhart wrote: > The term 24-7 is found in the Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. > 8.4, > 1993). It probably needs an updated treatment. > > No origin was speculated at the time. My guess is that it arose in > the > slang/jargon of Silicon Valley. > > Regards, > David > > David K. Barnhart, Editor > The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] > barnhart at highlands.com > www.highlands.com/Lexik > > "Necessity obliges us to neologize." > Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 ===== Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Associate Professor - English and Linguistics & University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 (757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5421(fax);(757)851-5773(home) e-mail: mlee303 at yahoo.com or margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Sep 22 21:44:28 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 17:44:28 -0400 Subject: Origin of Term "Ivy League" In-Reply-To: <3d.11bd54ac.28de15ad@aol.com> Message-ID: A few years ago Barry Popik, with his usual outstanding research, traced the term "Ivy League" back to December 1935 (the OED has 1939). Now a new book about Ivy League football pushes it back even further: [1933 Stanley Woodward in _N.Y. Herald Tribune_ 14 Oct. in Mark F. Bernstein _Football: The Ivy League Origins of an American Obsession_ (2001) xii A proportion of our eastern ivy colleges are meeting little fellows another Saturday before plunging into the strife and the turmoil.] 1935 Alan Gould in _Providence Journal_ 8 Feb. in Mark F. Bernstein _Football: The Ivy League Origins of an American Obsession_ (2001) 281 (heading) Brown seen as charter member of Ivy League. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From savan at EROLS.COM Sun Sep 23 01:43:45 2001 From: savan at EROLS.COM (leslie savan) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 18:43:45 -0700 Subject: Homeland, Motherland Message-ID: Gov. Tom Ridge will head the new cabinet-level Office of Homeland Security. "Homeland" evokes for me the sound of "Motherland" and, to a lesser degree, "Fatherland." Is there anyone out there who has detailed the history of these words and how, if at all, they've been used interchangeably? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 22 23:18:05 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 19:18:05 EDT Subject: Ivy League; Aztec Two-Step (1953) Message-ID: IVY LEAGUE I was recently brousing the Chicago Public Library's web site. It states that Charles Anderson Dana coined "Windy City" just before 1893. It also informs that "Ivy League" (a frequently asked question) comes from the league of four colleges (Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Columbia), or "IV League." If someone told you this, you'd tell that person to get to a library. BUT THIS IS THIS LIBRARY! Some 1920s citations that I have come very close to "Ivy League," but I can't find them now. I think they're from the "Subway Series" search (October 1923 & 1936). -------------------------------------------------------- AZTEC TWO-STEP by Stuart Sherman Greenberg Publishers, NY 1953 Lighter's RHHDAS lists only the title to this work as the first entry for "Aztec Two-Step," so maybe he didn't read it. I was looking for "Montezuma's Revenge," which is not here. Pg. 11: While it is true that the word "Touristas" is Mexican slang for tourists, the word as used here has a much more ominous meaning. It describes an amoebic "bug" you can get in tropical climates or, in fact, anywhere else. To set the record straight, the "Touristas" is atom-powered, supersonic diarrhea and _nothing_ more. We had a spell at the World's Fair in Chicago in 1934 and, reputedly, Texas Guinan died of it and, no matter how you describe it, it's a _Hell_ of a thing! The Mexicans have another name that is even better; at least, it's less serious. They call it 'The Aztec Two-Step." If you are one of the uninformed, let me explain that the Aztecs were one of a number of Indian tribes that lived in Mexico, that were noted for the dizzy pace at which they moved. It is said, without fear of contradiction, that an Aztec brave (Pg. 12--ed.) could run the hundred yard dash in the world shattering time of nine seconds, while going sideways in a two-step at the same speed he was going forward. As the name applies to the "Touristas" it is descriptive of the speed at which you negotiate the distance between your bed and the "john." Pg. 90: Late that night I made several signs on toilet paper and hung them on the outside of my door for the staff to see. They said: "_I'M_ FAIRLY INTELLIGENT MYSELF BUT I HAVE A LOT OF STUPID HELP AROUND _HERE_." I also tacked up the following signs, put out by Tanner and Company in Indianapolis, for the patients and the doctors to read: "IN CASE OF ATOM BOMB ATTACK, HIDE UNDER THE URINAL. NO ONE EVER HITS _IT_." "YOU HAVE A PERFECT RIGHT TO YOUR OPINION--PROVIDED IT AGREES WITH _MINE_." "YOUR CALL HAS CLIMAXED AN ALREADY _DULL_ DAY." "I'M NOT HARD OF HEARING (Pg. 91--ed.) --I'M JUST IGNORING _YOU_." "WHAT'S ON YOUR MIND?--IF YOU'LL _FORGIVE_ THE OVERSTATEMENT." Pg. 158: The next day she came back with what she had typed out and after reading it, I thought it exceedingly funny, even though I knew that I was full of that "hop juice." Pg. 178: Fortunately, no nurses were around at the moment, having their "coffee break," as they called it. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 23 00:00:42 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 20:00:42 EDT Subject: Macadamizing (1824); Marihuana/Mary Anna (1916) and more Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Bapopik at aol.com Subject: Macadamizing (1824); Marihuana/Mary Anna (1916) and more Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 19:59:12 EDT Size: 2450 URL: From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Sep 23 02:42:10 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 21:42:10 -0500 Subject: Query:"jasm" (= energy, vitality) Message-ID: The term "jazz" probably derives from a now obsolete term "jasm" (= energy, vitality). _DARE_ gives 1860 as the date of the first attestation, and the apparently related term "jism" (= energy, vim; ability; semen) is first attested in 1842. The origin of the term is obscure. But Douglas Wilson has very tentatively advanced a suggestion to me, and with his permission I now share it with the ads-l members: Might "jasm" be a shortened and altered form of "(enthu)siasm"? Specifically, might some people have pronounced "enthusiasm" something like "enthuzhasm" ("zh" here as in the Russian name "Zhivago")? And might this "zh" (uncommon at the beginning of a syllable in English) been replaced by "j"? Hence: "(enthu)jasm," shortened to just "jasm" Webster III has a definition and example for "jasm" which fit "enthusiasm" perfectly: "jasm (origin unknown). zest for accomplishment. DRIVE, ENERGY. You must have jasm if you want to amount to anything in this world." Again, this is all tentative, like thinking out loud. Still, is there any evidence that might support it? ---Gerald Cohen From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Sep 23 03:43:34 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 23:43:34 -0400 Subject: elope Message-ID: Is "elope" in the old sense of "escape" common in contemporary English? All the examples in my database are in the sense of "run away together to get married," as in "Dick eloped with Jane" and "They eloped." I was surprised to see the following usages in _The Day the Voices Stopped (a memoir of madness and hope)_ by Ken Steele & Claire Berman (Basic Books, 2001): "I was worried if people knew my real name, they'd soon learn I'd eloped from Metropolitan" (p. 97) and "For no clear reason, except that I was bored and was being prodded to get on with my death, I eloped from the Lodge during one of our recreational trips...." (p. 152). From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Sep 23 03:44:07 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 23:44:07 -0400 Subject: Homeland, Motherland Message-ID: I wonder if this use of "homeland" is another example of the "Bush Dyslexicon," like the use of "infinite" in "Infinite Justice." leslie savan wrote: > > Gov. Tom Ridge will head the new cabinet-level Office of Homeland > Security. "Homeland" evokes for me the sound of "Motherland" and, to a > lesser degree, "Fatherland." Is there anyone out there who has detailed > the history of these words and how, if at all, they've been used > interchangeably? From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Sep 23 03:57:32 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 23:57:32 -0400 Subject: elope Message-ID: Is the use of "elope" in the old sense of "escape" common in contemporary English? All the usages in my 1989-1990 database are in the sense of "run away together to get married" as in "Dick eloped with Jane"and "They eloped." I was surprised to see the following usages in _The Day the Voices Stopped (a memoir of madness and hope)_ by Ken Steele and Claire Berman (Basic Books, 2001): "For one thing, I was worried that if people knew my real name, they'd soon learn that I'd eloped from Metropolitan...." (p. 97). "For no clear reason, except that I was bored and was being prodded to get on with my death, I eloped from the Lodge during one of our recreational trips...." (p. 152) From salovex at WPO.CSO.NIU.EDU Sun Sep 23 09:18:56 2001 From: salovex at WPO.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 04:18:56 -0500 Subject: Mexican Strawberry; La Mordida Message-ID: The discussion of the Mexican meaning of the word "mordida" raises Whorfian questions about the translatability of words that are deeply embedded in cultural meanings. I wouldn't think of raising such a general (and probably unanswerable) question here. But there something deeply wrong, in cultural terms, with the translation that's usually given. Yes, "mordida" is a dimunitive form of "bite". Yes, it's ubiquitous. But saying that "mordida" means "bribe" is more an instance of gringo projection than of accurate analysis of what mordidas are about. "Bribes", up here in Gringolandia, imply an effort to suborn some official process, usually involving an agent of government at some level. In public, or in teaching schoolkids how our system works, we hold to an ideal that everyone is equal before the law. If I want to renew my driver's license, or get a copy of my birth certificate, or get some kind of official answer to my questions about Social Security or Medicare, I write a letter or go to the relevant government office with the expectation that a public servant will respond to my request. That "public servant" works for the government agency. Since we call ourselves a democracy, we take that to mean that the government employee works for us. It would be a subversion of our whole ideal of how government is supposed to work if one of those public servants -- that is, one of my employees -- refused to do the job I'm already paying him to do unless he received additional compensation: a bribe. Generally speaking, Mexican rules don't work that way. Approaches to government agencies -- including, say, public hospitals or the office that issues passports or the equivalent of a recorder of deeds -- are like any other social interaction. The preferred approach begins with kinship: you go to your cousin who works in the hospital, and she intercedes with the doctor to ensure that you'll get an appointment while a doctor's visit will still do you some good. If you don't have any relatives who provide a link, maybe somebody you work with or your neighbor or your old second grade teacher can open the door for you. What counts is the social link to the institution: going to your cousin who mops the floors will get you into the hospital process. If you show up at the appointment desk or the emergency check-in without the intercession of a social connection you'll wait a long time for service -- even if you're obviously about to die. The government employee does not see himself as a public servant. The services he provides gain their meaning out of personalized relations almost to the exclusion of their material efficacy. The government employee's role includes some instrumental behavior, but the important part of the role is what the civil servant does as a social enabler. His value comes from serving as the link that gets services delivered to his family, his compadres, perhaps his neighbors, and certainly to the influential people who interceded personally to get him the job in the first place. Civil servants are expected to give priority to fultilling individual personal obligations rather than to fulfilling the duties specified in a bureaucratic job description. That's why their paychecks are ridiculously small, even compared to the cost of starving to death. (I'll elide the systematic exception by not trying to explain how the kleptocrats at the top of the system accumulate fortunes out of their high offices when the government and the banks actually went bankrupt twenty years ago and show no signs of recovery to this day.) Now suppose that I am in a bind: I need a government service, and I have no social connection to people who have anything to do with providing that service. There has to be an alternative means of approach, even in a system that is personalized to the hilt. Lacking the standard means of access, what I can do is provide a reason why a government employee should attend to my needs even when she has no social obligation to do so. I find a way of offering a mordida. For someone with fairly high social status, the mordida might be in the form of converting a business call on an office to a social call with the one in charge. After all, it's standard form to talk politely about the weather or the news or anything other than the business which brings you to a government office -- or a store, or a university office, and so on. Getting right down to business would be downright boorish, and probably counter-productive as well. Talking with the office boss, one way to offer a mordida would be to mention one's business, off-handedly, framing the statement in observations that this is a busy office and surely the important people in it have better things to do than take care of this little problem . . . Perhaps, Mr. Manager, you could oblige me by repaying your clerks for the special efforts they will have to make by letting me buy them some refreshments when the job is done . . . Here's a little something that could take care of it . . . Those at the bottom of the totem pole just have to ask around to find out what the standard fee might be, or wait until they're told -- and they pay because that's the entrance fee. Maybe I can reduce the cultural gap by translating the word "mordida" into something we are familiar with in our system. I think "user fee" might do the trick. One of the reasons the Mexican government is broke is that they're not very good at collecting taxes, and the Mexican public is very good at evading taxes one way or another. (Again, personal networks provide a means for keeping the government at bay: I take care of my relatives, and they take care of me, and no money changes hands so no taxes accrue.) Paying a mordida simply reflects the fact that someone who wants something out of the government is expected to pay for services rendered. If people avoid paying taxes at the front door, they can expect to have to pay mordidas at the back door. Mexicans simply can't understand why we gringos get so bothered by the idea of mordidas. What they see is that gringos don't know how the system works, and they don't seem to try to find out. Gringos often ignore even the most obvious hints suggesting that they would be better off paying a mordida than trying to use their heads as battering rams -- or their outraged sensibility as grounds for upsetting everyone around them. Once in a while, when the cultural wind is in the right direction, an occasional gringo achieves a Zen satori in these matters. Take, e.g., an explanation a federal judge (and good friend) gave me when I questioned him about a mordida he had just arranged to pay. He needed some tax stamps to affix to a stack of official papers so as to complete a transaction he was facilitating for his cousin. The stamps could only be obtained in the Oficina de Hacienda, the tax collector's office. The judge sent one of his clerks to get the stamps, carefully specifying the type needed and the cost. As he counted out the fee, he told his clerk how much of a mordida to pay to whom in order to facilitate the transaction. I knew that the local tax collector and the judge were compadres and very good friends, and I was surprised that there would be any mordida. I leaned on or friendship to ask the judge to enlighten my ignorance. He spelled it out for me: "Well, of course Don Avram (the formal title appropriate in talking to me about his friend) would take care of this for me. But I don't want to bother him with such trifles. It's easier just to have my clerk pay his clerks for their services ." Culturally speaking, a mordida isn't a bribe because there is no intent to subvert the system. A mordida is an unofficial and informal payment for official services rendered. Oh, nuts. I guess you just had to be there . . . -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > LA MORDIDA > > > > From THIS WEEK, NYHT, 12 December 1948, pg. 34, col. 1: > > > > _MEXICO'S WAR ON THE "BITE"_ > > _That's the Mexicans' pet name for the tradition_ > > _of bribery--but it no longer signifies affection._ > > _Now press and government are swinging into action_ > > (...) > > That's the bribe--or, as the Mexicans call it, _la mordida_. Springing from the perpetual pinch of poverty, the _mordida_ has been an age-old custom so generally accepted and so widely practiced that it long ago gained the orthodoxy of an institution. > > 1940 _Life_ 2 Dec. 102 In Mexico, and throughout Latin America, it is > next to impossible to make headway with petty officials without constant > applications of the _mordida,_ which literally translated means 'the bite', > or bribe. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED -- -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! IN MEMORIAM: Peggy Salovesh 25 January 1932 -- 3 March 2001 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 23 11:52:30 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 07:52:30 EDT Subject: French Vanilla (1928), Butter Pecan (1938); Frozen Pizza (1949) Message-ID: FRENCH VANILLA, BUTTER PECAN (continued) AMERICAN COOKERY, June/July 1928-May 1929 Ice Cream, French Vanilla...41 AMERICAN COOKERY, June/July 1938-May 1939 Ice Cream, Butter Pecan...115 -------------------------------------------------------- FROZEN PIZZA "The first frozen pizza was marketed by the Celentano Brothers in 1957." --John Mariani, ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK, pg. 244. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 18 July 1949, pg. 9, col. 6: _Frozen Pizza at 39 cents is Quick Meal for One_ -------------------------- _Not For an Epicure, Though;_ _Adding Seasoning Helps;_ _Irish Bacon Back Again_ By Clementine Paddleford If you have your mouth set on the real thing, that is, a pizza made by an Italian pizza expert, peeled bubbling hot from a brick oven--this isn't your meat. But if you aren't too fussy here's a quick-frozen pizza that will be ready to serve any time you care to snatch it from the freezer to hand to the oven for a fifteen-minute sojourn. This looks like a real pizza. Made open face with a yeast dough base, it smells like the real thing with its spicy tomato cheese filling, but there is something missing when it comes to flavor. We suggest adding more mozzarrello cheese and a big sprinkling of hot pepper. You may have other ideas. Easy to fix as heating the oven. One is just right for one, price 39 cents in the drozen food stores. Two stores we know handling these pies made by Roman Raviola, Inc., of Garfield, N. J., are Authentic Foods, 2680 Broadway, and the Verdi Square Shop, 283 Amsterdam Avenue. -------------------------------------------------------- ZUCCHINI STICKS (continued) This beats the December 1949 citation. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 19 February 1949, pg. 11, col. 6: She folds the veal turnover style, sautes the (Col. 7--ed.) pieces in butter, and quickly now to a dangerously hot platter along with French fried zucchini sticks, French fried mushrooms and a rice croquette. (Served at Squeri's, 305 East Fiftieth Street--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- CHILI DOGS (continued) From a Hormel ad in THIS WEEK, NYHT, 25 September 1949, pg. 43, col. 2: "Everybody likes Hormel Chili..." DOUBLE YOUR MONEY BACK IF _YOU_ DON'T (...) SOME LIKE IT ON A HOT DOG... Spoon a generous amount of bubbling hot Hormel Chili over a grilled frankfurter and bun. Live- ly sauce replaces usual relish; meat and beans make the chili hot dog a real he-man favorite. (...) HORMEL CHILI CON CARNE From salovex at WPO.CSO.NIU.EDU Sun Sep 23 12:20:20 2001 From: salovex at WPO.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 07:20:20 -0500 Subject: Willie Howard Message-ID: Barry Popik said: > WILLIE HOWARD & "COMES THE REVOLUTION" > > The NYHT, 13 January 1949, obituary for Willie Howard reveals that he was a > dialect comedian who possibly put several slang phrases into circulation. I'll > check his file when the Performing Arts Library reopens. > > From col. 3: > > For each of his classic sketches--"The Quartet," "Mexican Presidents," "I > Can Get It for You Wholesale," "After the Opera" or "French Lessons"--he had a > different approach. His famous "Rewolt" routine ("Comes the ravalution, you'll > eat strawberries and like it!") furnished a favorite gag for the depression > years. Dear Barry: At this late hour, I can't judge whether this is or is not right for the list. OK, let folks on the list hit delete. I'm sending this to you because I'm sure it is right for you. Besides, it's my way of saying thanks for your very kind words about my reappearance. Old Willie Howard routines surely must have affected popular language in their day, and it's wise to check them. While you're at it, I'd bet that other comics from stage, vaudeville, and burlesque must have had an impact, too. My guess is that those whose routines circulated on phonograph records are the most likely bet as sources of language.dialect innovation. The whole point to a classic routine like "Comes the revolution" was that everybody in the audience knew every line. That's true of routines from even earlier times: think of the "Arkansas Traveler", for example. Once a comic bit reached classic status, the audience might have rioted if so much as a word got changed. That's the performing truth of the scenes in "The Sunshine Boys". Remember? Two retired vaudevillians, a famous team that broke up out of repetition, are brought back for a TV special. One of them insists on responding to a knock at the door by saying "Enter!" instead of "Come in!" The genius of a Willie Howard (or his like, from Gallagher and Sheen at one end to Red Skelton at the other) was that they could get the audience roaring in laughter even though everyone knew what the next line would be. Well, maybe not quite everybody knew every line. Or maybe Willie Howard had been forgotten by the press and everybody else outside the Borscht Belt when he died. In any event, the obit in the New York Herald Tribune got it wrong -- hence this communique from P Triple A C, the Pedantic Accuracy At Any Cost front. The beauty of the best of those old routines is that you didn't have to see the originals to learn all of their lines. People performed them verbatim for each other's benefit. "Comes the revolution" outlived Willie Howard; we used to do it for each other on and around Chicago's 55th street in the 1950s. The setting for such shenanigans came when a bunch of theater-oriented street people took over the premises of an East 55th Street bar. While the bar was still a bar, I played piano there for tips. I don't think my playing was why they went broke, but it's possible. As the theater gang converted the dark precincts of the old bar into a light and airy cafe/cabaret/improv theater, I just sort of blended in with them. I had to: when we finished painting the walls, we ALL blended into everything inside the place. Paint was everywhere. The biggest fun with that crowd was throwing bits at each other -- telephone bits, for example. (Hold up your left hand, with the first three fingers folded down to yor palm. Point your little finger at your mouth and your thumb at your ear and start talking as if your hand was a phone.) And, of course, Willie Howard bits, Danny Kaye bits, Laurel and Hardy bits, and so on. Who's the "we" who did all those bits? Lots of unknowns, and lots who became knowns: Mike Nichols and Shelley Berman and, I think, Bob Newhart, to name three of the knowns. (Those fist-as-phone bits were the genesis of some of the best solo acts Berman and Newhart ever did.) Eventually, the core of the gang moved to the North Side and became Second City. (Ohne mich: that was the time when I discovered anthropology. I knew theater didn't pay much, and anthropology looked like it could be just as much fun while showing some chance of bringing in a miserly salary, to boot. And that's what I got out of anthropology, too. Lotsa fun, no money.) "Comes the revolution" went like this: Open, on burlesque's classic Fleegle Street. Crowd (made up of comics, cops, and strippers with street clothes drawn over their invisible performing costumes) comes and goes. For variety, some go and go, or come and come: exit left, then reenter stage right. Lots of room for pantomime bits in the crowd, until: Enter WILLIE HOWARD, carrying a soapbox. He sets the box down, with some business about slipping as he starts to mount it. Finally he makes it to a standing position on top of the box, and starts to orate. (I won't even try to represent the accent -- give me a phone call some day and I'll reproduce it for you, as best I can.) HOWARD: "Fellow workers!" Crowd ignores him. HOWARD, louder: "Fellow workers!!!" No effect; tummeling continues. HOWARD: "FELLOW WORKERS !!!" A dope stops and stares up at the orator. Howard, blessed with an audience, albeit with only one member, directs its placement: HOWARD: "Make a circle, make a circle." -- yeah, it all comes back to me now. And I don't care what the obituary says. The last lines go: HOWARD: "Comes the revolution, you'll eat strawberries and cream." DOPE: "But I don't like strawberries and cream!" HOWARD: "Comes the revolution, you'll eat strawberries and cream and LIKE it!" (Lights out. End of skit.) See what I mean? Strawberries alone just don't make it. Saying "strawberries" without cream is like saying "enter" when everybody knows you're supposed to say "come in". It's strawberries and cream or nothing. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! IN MEMORIAM: Peggy Salovesh 25 January 1932 -- 3 March 2001 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 23 13:22:56 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 09:22:56 EDT Subject: Goopher Feathers & a Big Bang (1949) Message-ID: GOOPHER FEATHERS The RHHDAS has no entry. "Horsefeathers" is in the RHHDAS from 1927, coined by T. A. Dorgan. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 2 August 1949, pg. 12, col. 2: _George Moran,_ _Of "Two Black_ _Crows", Is Dead_ ----------------- _Dies at 67 in Charity Ward;_ _Late Charles Mack His_ _Partner in Blackface Act_ (...) _Comedian in 1920s_ George Moran, with the late Charles E. Mack, was one of the men who set the American cultural pattern of the 1920s. Founded on sure-fire gags, delivered with a dead-pan drawl and expert timing, their black-face routine brought them to the top in vaudeville and musical comedy; sold 7,000,000 phonograph records in homes across the country and blossomed briefly on radio. In the process, they made "goopher feathers"--defined by Mack as "the fuzz offa peaches"--a by-word for nonsense, and launched a string of anecdotes that remain as echoes of the '30s. Many, like the "goopher feathers"--were derived from an experiment in farming that was an inexhaustible subject of Moran and Mack routines. (I'll check them out when the Performing Arts Library re-opens, around October 15--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- CALL THE SHOTS RHHDAS A-G "call" says to check "shot." Thanks. OED has 1967. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, full page ad for PATHFINDER news magazine (TIME & NEWSWEEK competitor), 12 October 1949, pg. 33: WHO DO YOU GET TO "CALL YOUR SHOTS?" (...) These Are Some of the Men Who "Call the Shots" in Sturgis, Mich. -------------------------------------------------------- "YOU'RE ANOTHER!" From a cartoon in the NYHT, 28 August 1949, section 2, pg. 7, col. 1. "You're Another!" is the caption. Kettle "TITO" argues with Pot "STALIN." -------------------------------------------------------- BUSH PILOT OED has 1936. From the NYHT, 22 June 1949, pg. 18, col. 2: _Joe Crosson,_ _Famed Alaskan_ _Pilot, Is Dead_ --------------- _Helped Curb Epidemics in_ _'30s; Flew Will Rogers,_ _Wiley Post Back to U.S._ (...)(Col. 3--ed.) An Army pilot in World War I, he left California for Alaska in 1926 for the lure of pioneering in Alaskan aviation. He was one of the first and most famous of the "bush pilots." He flew for a thousand miles in every direction from Fairbanks. -------------------------------------------------------- SCRATCH SHEET OED has his name, but cites the date as 1917. From the NYHT, 8 August 1949, pg. 16, col. 5: _William Armstrong,_ _Racing Publisher_ ------------------ _Bowery News Dealer Printed_ _First "Scratch Sheet"_ (...) By 1916 he had a stand on the Bowery and conceived the idea of issuing his own racing information bulletin which would give last-minute information on the racing day. From this beginning he developed a large publishing enterprise specializing in information about horses withdrawn from competition on the morning of a race, handicappers' choices and other racing data. (A court case is described that decided that "scratch sheets" were not "tipster sheets"--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- BASEBALL UMPIRE PHRASES From the NYHT, 15 June 1949, pg. 20, col. 2: _"Uncle Charlie" Moran, Umpire_ _And Football Coach, Dies at 70_ (...)(Col. 3--ed.) As a baseball umpire, Mr. Moran was noted for his rasping voice, especially when a decision was disputed, and for his passion for anonymity. He shunned public attention. "The public never notices you until it thinks you've called one wrong," he used to say. His most famous standby expression was, "It ain't nothing until I call it." -------------------------------------------------------- GOING TO CAIN'S From the NYHT, 14 May 1949, pg. 12, col. 4: _P. J. Cain Dies;_ _Ran Theatrical_ _Storage House_ ----------------- _Warehouse Became Famous_ _on Broadway as "Journey's_ _End" for Show Failures_ (...) Even when some other moving and storage company got the business, the closing production was known as "going to Cain's." As attendance began to flag, actors used a wisecrack that became a tradition: "Next week we're going to Cain's." A critic once wrote of a poor show: "The audience was so bored you could hear Cain's trucks carting the show away as each act ended." -------------------------------------------------------- WHEN AN IRRESISTIBLE FORCE MEETS AN IMMOVABLE OBJECT "When an irresistable force such as you Meets an old immovable object like me You can bet as sure as you live Something's gotta give, Something's gotta give, Something's gotta give." --Johnny Mercer song "Something's Gotta Give," 1957 From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 8 November 1949, pg. 24, cols. 5-7 cartoon: Now Comes the Immovable Object (The candidates are using a lever to move voter apathy--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- BASEBALL MIDGET (OFF TOPIC) Has the information below been recorded? I recently read an article about Bill Veeck and the midget Eddie Gaedel. Veeck sent Gaedel to the plate in 1951. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 8 August 1949, pg. 17, col. 3: _Bill Veeck and the Midget_ ACCORDING TO Ted Lyons, Red Rolfe's first lieutenant on the Tigers, the possibility of a midget in major league baseball is not as ridiculous as it sounds..."For example," says Lyons, "if the Cleveland Indians had a bases loaded situation, two outs, and one run needed to win the pennant, I wouldn't be surprised to see Bill Veeck come up with a midget on his squad for the express purpose of stepping to the plate and working the pitcher for a base on balls." -------------------------------------------------------- BIG BANG I'll end with a bang. Fred Hoyle, who died recently, coined his "Big Bang" theory in 1950. From the NYHT, "Matter of Fact" by Joseph and Stewart Alsop, 3 October 1949, pg. 13, cols. 7-8: _Politics of a Big Bang_ From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Sep 23 13:59:53 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 09:59:53 -0400 Subject: Goopher Feathers & a Big Bang (1949) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Goopher feathers" sounds an awful lot like "foo-foo dust," which has southern perhaps African-American origins. In my family's usage, "foo-foo dust" was the mildly sarcastic magical cure for small problems (especially in such phrases as "Here, let's sprinkle some foo-foo dust on it"), particularly unreasonable requests or trifling ills, perhaps especially children's. DARE has "goofer" (and "goofer dust" in citations under "goofer" in this "magic sense," marked chiefly southern and African-American). Oddly, DARE has "foo-foo" in the obviously West African cooked yam sense but only a single entry for "foo-foo" as dust, and then as a synonym for "dust bunny," "dust ball," or "dust kitten" but no magical powder sense. Did we discuss "foo-foo dust" (or a variant) earlier? dInIs >GOOPHER FEATHERS > > The RHHDAS has no entry. > "Horsefeathers" is in the RHHDAS from 1927, coined by T. A. Dorgan. > From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 2 August 1949, pg. 12, col. 2: > >_George Moran,_ >_Of "Two Black_ >_Crows", Is Dead_ >----------------- >_Dies at 67 in Charity Ward;_ > _Late Charles Mack His_ > _Partner in Blackface Act_ >(...) > _Comedian in 1920s_ > George Moran, with the late Charles E. Mack, was one of the men >who set the American cultural pattern of the 1920s. Founded on >sure-fire gags, delivered with a dead-pan drawl and expert timing, >their black-face routine brought them to the top in vaudeville and >musical comedy; sold 7,000,000 phonograph records in homes across >the country and blossomed briefly on radio. > In the process, they made "goopher feathers"--defined by Mack as >"the fuzz offa peaches"--a by-word for nonsense, and launched a >string of anecdotes that remain as echoes of the '30s. Many, like >the "goopher feathers"--were derived from an experiment in farming >that was an inexhaustible subject of Moran and Mack routines. > >(I'll check them out when the Performing Arts Library re-opens, >around October 15--ed.) > >-------------------------------------------------------- >CALL THE SHOTS > > RHHDAS A-G "call" says to check "shot." Thanks. > OED has 1967. > From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, full page ad for PATHFINDER >news magazine (TIME & NEWSWEEK competitor), 12 October 1949, pg. 33: > >WHO DO YOU GET TO >"CALL YOUR SHOTS?" >(...) >These Are Some of the Men Who >"Call the Shots" in Sturgis, Mich. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >"YOU'RE ANOTHER!" > > From a cartoon in the NYHT, 28 August 1949, section 2, pg. 7, col. 1. > "You're Another!" is the caption. > Kettle "TITO" argues with Pot "STALIN." > >-------------------------------------------------------- >BUSH PILOT > > OED has 1936. > From the NYHT, 22 June 1949, pg. 18, col. 2: > >_Joe Crosson,_ >_Famed Alaskan_ >_Pilot, Is Dead_ >--------------- >_Helped Curb Epidemics in_ > _'30s; Flew Will Rogers,_ > _Wiley Post Back to U.S._ >(...)(Col. 3--ed.) > An Army pilot in World War I, he left California for Alaska in >1926 for the lure of pioneering in Alaskan aviation. He was one of >the first and most famous of the "bush pilots." He flew for a >thousand miles in every direction from Fairbanks. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >SCRATCH SHEET > > OED has his name, but cites the date as 1917. > From the NYHT, 8 August 1949, pg. 16, col. 5: > >_William Armstrong,_ >_Racing Publisher_ >------------------ >_Bowery News Dealer Printed_ > _First "Scratch Sheet"_ >(...) By 1916 he had a stand on the Bowery and conceived the idea >of issuing his own racing information bulletin which would give >last-minute information on the racing day. From this beginning he >developed a large publishing enterprise specializing in information >about horses withdrawn from competition on the morning of a race, >handicappers' choices and other racing data. > >(A court case is described that decided that "scratch sheets" were >not "tipster sheets"--ed.) > >-------------------------------------------------------- >BASEBALL UMPIRE PHRASES > > From the NYHT, 15 June 1949, pg. 20, col. 2: > >_"Uncle Charlie" Moran, Umpire_ >_And Football Coach, Dies at 70_ >(...)(Col. 3--ed.) > As a baseball umpire, Mr. Moran was noted for his rasping voice, >especially when a decision was disputed, and for his passion for >anonymity. He shunned public attention. > "The public never notices you until it thinks you've called one >wrong," he used to say. > His most famous standby expression was, "It ain't nothing until I call it." > >-------------------------------------------------------- >GOING TO CAIN'S > > From the NYHT, 14 May 1949, pg. 12, col. 4: > >_P. J. Cain Dies;_ >_Ran Theatrical_ >_Storage House_ >----------------- >_Warehouse Became Famous_ > _on Broadway as "Journey's_ > _End" for Show Failures_ >(...) > Even when some other moving and storage company got the business, >the closing production was known as "going to Cain's." As >attendance began to flag, actors used a wisecrack that became a >tradition: "Next week we're going to Cain's." A critic once wrote >of a poor show: "The audience was so bored you could hear Cain's >trucks carting the show away as each act ended." > >-------------------------------------------------------- >WHEN AN IRRESISTIBLE FORCE MEETS AN IMMOVABLE OBJECT > >"When an irresistable force such as you >Meets an old immovable object like me >You can bet as sure as you live >Something's gotta give, Something's gotta give, >Something's gotta give." >--Johnny Mercer song "Something's Gotta Give," 1957 > > From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 8 November 1949, pg. 24, cols. >5-7 cartoon: > >Now Comes the Immovable Object > >(The candidates are using a lever to move voter apathy--ed.) > >-------------------------------------------------------- >BASEBALL MIDGET (OFF TOPIC) > > Has the information below been recorded? > I recently read an article about Bill Veeck and the midget Eddie >Gaedel. Veeck sent Gaedel to the plate in 1951. > From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 8 August 1949, pg. 17, col. 3: > > _Bill Veeck and the Midget_ >ACCORDING TO Ted Lyons, Red Rolfe's first lieutenant on the Tigers, >the possibility of a midget in major league baseball is not as >ridiculous as it sounds..."For example," says Lyons, "if the >Cleveland Indians had a bases loaded situation, two outs, and one >run needed to win the pennant, I wouldn't be surprised to see Bill >Veeck come up with a midget on his squad for the express purpose of >stepping to the plate and working the pitcher for a base on balls." > >-------------------------------------------------------- >BIG BANG > > I'll end with a bang. Fred Hoyle, who died recently, coined his >"Big Bang" theory in 1950. > From the NYHT, "Matter of Fact" by Joseph and Stewart Alsop, 3 >October 1949, pg. 13, cols. 7-8: > > _Politics of a Big Bang_ -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From douglas at NB.NET Sun Sep 23 14:00:17 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 10:00:17 -0400 Subject: Goopher Feathers & a Big Bang (1949) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >GOOPHER FEATHERS > > The RHHDAS has no entry. > "Horsefeathers" is in the RHHDAS from 1927, coined by T. A. Dorgan. > From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 2 August 1949, pg. 12, col. 2: > >_George Moran,_ >_Of "Two Black_ >_Crows", Is Dead_ >----------------- >_Dies at 67 in Charity Ward;_ > _Late Charles Mack His_ > _Partner in Blackface Act_ >(...) > _Comedian in 1920s_ > George Moran, with the late Charles E. Mack, was one of the men who > set the American cultural pattern of the 1920s. Founded on sure-fire > gags, delivered with a dead-pan drawl and expert timing, their black-face > routine brought them to the top in vaudeville and musical comedy; sold > 7,000,000 phonograph records in homes across the country and blossomed > briefly on radio. > In the process, they made "goopher feathers"--defined by Mack as "the > fuzz offa peaches"--a by-word for nonsense, and launched a string of > anecdotes that remain as echoes of the '30s. Many, like the "goopher > feathers"--were derived from an experiment in farming that was an > inexhaustible subject of Moran and Mack routines. > >(I'll check them out when the Performing Arts Library re-opens, around >October 15--ed.) .... "Goopher"/"goofer" means "magic"/"hex", although the spelling with "ph" may be designed to be reminiscent of "gopher". "Goopher dust" = "magical dust" (probably from a graveyard). Presumably "goopher feathers" originally would have meant feathers used for some type of gris-gris or magical object? -- Doug Wilson From einstein at FROGNET.NET Sun Sep 23 15:09:13 2001 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 11:09:13 -0400 Subject: "foo-foo dust" Message-ID: A family friend who had been a tanker ship's capt. for Texaco used "foo foo stuff" for perfume; I later read--maybe on ADS--that it was homosexual slang for excrement. I suspect that there are a lot of foolish referents... _________________ We are all New Yorkers --Dominique Moisi New York is America. We're all in this together. --Mayor Rudy Guiliani From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 23 15:54:41 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 11:54:41 EDT Subject: Biscotti (1949); Dutch Apple Pie Message-ID: BISCOTTI (continued) The ADS-L archives has two "biscotti" from GOURMET, 1951 and 1955. From Clementine Paddleford's column in the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 12 September 1949, pg. 9, col. 6: Two Italian bakery products have been added to the Bohack line, a pure egg biscuit and anise biscotti, these baked by Primato Egg Biscuit Company. The biscotti, strongly flavored of the anise, looks like zwieback and is very similar. The Italians like these dry, toasted, sweet-flavored bead slices with wine, price for twelve pieces, 25 cents. (You can also serve them with coffee--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- DUTCH APPLE PIE/CAKE (continued) Two more articles on "Dutch Apple Pie." From the NYHT, 26 January 1949, pg. 26, col. 6: DUTCH APPLE PIE--Perfect applie pie timber is jar-packed ready to turn into a nine-inch pastry shell, then on with the "kivver" and into the oven for pie, like they like pie, in the Pennsylvania Dutch country. The same apple slices, firm yet tender under the fork, sweet enough as they are, may be used for cobbler, Brown Betty, for apple grunter. The filling needs no preparation unless you wish to add spices, nutmeg or cinnamon. Buy and try--and be "denkhawr," as the Pennsylvania Dutch say, meaning "thankful." The 1-pound 14-ounce jar is 39 cents at the St. Nicholas Food Center, 755 St. Nicholas Avenue. The makers are C. H. Mussellman Company, of Biglerville, Pa., an old Dutch house, the large packers of apple products in America. The firm has a small vest-pocket size book of Pennsylvania Dutch recipes just off the press, yours for the asking. Nineteen recipes in the collection, every last one using apples. Included are such old favorites as schnitz un knepp, shoo-fly pie, molasses apple scallop--as the Dutch say, "wonderful good." From the NYHT, 17 December 1949, pg. 11, col. 7: BACK TALK--"Let me ruffle your placid calm," bulletins J. Edmund Tonnelier. "It's all about Stouffer's Pennsylvania Dutch pie. I'm not so young, but no quiver of the hand as I write to say my dander is up at both Stouffer and 'Old Stager.' It's a long long way between Cleveland and Pennsylvania Dutch land, even if the Allegheny Mountains did not intervene; and what 'Old Stager' is attempting to describe as pie is, in Pennsylvania Dutch, cake, even though it really is a pie. "I was born in Reading, Pa., and grew up only eighteen miles to the southwest, acquainted with milk pie and molasses pie and Shoo Fly Cake and Pennsylvania Dutch apple cake (pie if you must). This was an open-faced pie with no top and nothing tucked in. It had none of your diced apples, as Stouffer would have you believe. The tin was coated with crust which was shaved off carefully on the edges, then dusted with dry flour. The apples were carefully quartered, were closely packed in a symmetrical design, all with their broad sides up. Then the whole was dredged with plenty of sugar with much cinnamon and oodles of butter, and dusted perhaps with a little more flour--no milk, if you please, it does not belong. Then into the right oven and out. It was juicy and gooey, had flavor. The apples never lost shape or form. Stouffer's don't know it all yet." (FWIW: Two women that I met recently in Poland were from Reading, and they both promised me old cookbooks. I haven't received them--ed.) From pskuhlman at JUNO.COM Sun Sep 23 16:18:17 2001 From: pskuhlman at JUNO.COM (pskuhlman at JUNO.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:18:17 -0400 Subject: Homeland, Motherland Message-ID: I believe"homeland defense" is a military term that has been borrowed in naming the new cabinet level department, but don't know when it originated in the military lexicon. Patricia Kuhlman pskuhlman at juno.com Brooklyn, NY On Sat, 22 Sep 2001 23:44:07 -0400 Thomas Paikeday writes: > I wonder if this use of "homeland" is another example of the "Bush > Dyslexicon," like the use of "infinite" in "Infinite Justice." > > leslie savan wrote: > > > > Gov. Tom Ridge will head the new cabinet-level Office of Homeland > > Security. "Homeland" evokes for me the sound of "Motherland" and, > to a > > lesser degree, "Fatherland." Is there anyone out there who has > detailed > > the history of these words and how, if at all, they've been used > > interchangeably? > From mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU Sun Sep 23 17:18:18 2001 From: mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:18:18 -0500 Subject: Teaching: updating AAVE? Message-ID: I apologize for having taken this long to acknowledge the helpful feedback on my question about approaches to the AAVE verbal system in introductory courses-- it took a while to mull over the ideas. One important point emerges from the discussion so far: we should keep in mind the goals of the particular course and the background of the students. I'm collecting the sources of examples suggested. My memory of the ones that I had read before is that I would've liked to see even more of a variety of structures represented in the examples: how do speakers form negatives and interrogatives with various combinations of "bin" and "d at n"...? There seems to be a general sense on both teach-ling and ADS-L that approaching AAVE verbal issues as a system is important, but excessive terminology (and excessive exposure to complexity??) would do more harm than good, so a reasonable approach might be to focus on a few structures and look at the rest of the system in less detail. Actually, this is similar to what I've been doing so far: I focus on habitual BE and stressed BIN, indicating that they are part of a larger system. I've felt that the existence of the overall system gets lost in this approach, but maybe the key is to give the rest of the system a little more air time, but not too much. (But what to do with "is 'bin d at n' on the test?"...) Probably it would also be better not to rely on standard AmE "paraphrases" or "translations", but to explain meanings visually (time lines?) or by giving enough conversational context, as in Rebecca Wheeler's example. The helpful discussion from the lists has also helped me articulate a point I couldn't quite pin down earlier: highlighting just a few parts of the verbal system may make it difficult to avoid terminology that implicitly assumes standard AmE as a reference point. That is, what will we call "BE omission" or "BE deletion" if the whole system is not under consideration? Thanks to all for your help. -Mai _________________________________ Mai Kuha mkuha at bsuvc.bsu.edu Department of English (765) 285-8410 Ball State University From transedit.h at TELIA.COM Sun Sep 23 18:30:29 2001 From: transedit.h at TELIA.COM (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 20:30:29 +0200 Subject: 24/7 Message-ID: Tom Dalzell in his "Flappers 2 Rappers. American Youth Slang" (1996) states (p 211) that the expression comes from hip-hop slang. No date given, but maybe a thread worth following up. Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 23 23:06:14 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 19:06:14 EDT Subject: Fwd: The Word Detective, October 1 through 12, 2001 Message-ID: The Word Detective is correct that H. T. Webster gave us "milquetoast," but not on the "old New York Herald Tribune" in 1924. It was the New York Tribune. The New York Herald Tribune's life was 1926-1966. I-FORMATION: There's a nice article in the NYHT by Red Smith on the I-formation in football, from Notre Dame coach Frank Leahy (NYHT, 6 November 1951, pg. 27, col. 3, "The 'I' Has It"). Does OED record this? Leahy also used the T-formation. Why does Google disregard my "I"? -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Evan Morris Subject: The Word Detective, October 1 through 12, 2001 Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 16:42:06 -0400 Size: 15071 URL: From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Sep 23 23:39:09 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 19:39:09 EDT Subject: Goopher Feathers & a Big Bang (1949) Message-ID: In a message dated 09/23/2001 9:24:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > I'll end with a bang. Fred Hoyle, who died recently, coined his "Big Bang" > theory in 1950. The "Big Bang" theory was proposed by the Abbe/ George Lemai^tre (that's an acute accent and a circumflex respectively) in 1933. Fred Hoyle was for many years one of the leading opponents of the Big Bang theory. He and Herman Bondi and Thomas Gold of Cambridge University proposed the rival "Steady State" theory in 1948. I have no information on when the name "Big Bang" was applied to Lemai^tre's theory. You may be interested to know that the PC Police (when did that phrase originate?) are after "Big Bang", claiming it is a sexist name. Another interesting story about the Big Bang Theory concerns a variation of it proposed in a paper by George Gamow, Ralph A. Alpher, and Hans Bethe. I have no idea whether this story be true, but it is claimed that Bethe had nothing to do with the paper---his name was attached to it by Gamow with malice aforethought, so that it could be called the "Alpher-Bethe-Gamow" theory. According to my father, the theory went on the rocks and Bethe announced that he was going to change his name to Zacharias. James A. Landau Systems Engineer FAA Technical Center (ACT-350/BCI) Atlantic City Airport NJ 08405 USA From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sun Sep 23 23:33:21 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 19:33:21 -0400 Subject: "foo-foo dust" In-Reply-To: <00a901c14441$b51faec0$620703d8@dbergdah1> Message-ID: David Bergdahl said: >A family friend who had been a tanker ship's capt. for Texaco used "foo foo >stuff" for perfume; I later read--maybe on ADS--that it was homosexual slang >for excrement. I suspect >that there are a lot of foolish referents... Is this related to "frou-frou" for something that's excessively frilly? (For me, personally, perfume counts here...) -- Alice Faber tel. (203) 865-6163 Haskins Laboratories fax (203) 865-8963 270 Crown St faber at haskins.yale.edu New Haven, CT 06511 afaber at wesleyan.edu From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Sep 23 23:49:14 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 19:49:14 EDT Subject: Macadamizing (1824); Marihuana/Mary Anna (1916) and more Message-ID: In a message dated 09/22/2001 8:01:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > "Extranjeros" (for "gringo") is on pages 242 and 294. "Extranjero" is simply the Spanish word for "foreigner". "Gringo" is a swear-word in New World Spanish, very much like the "N-word" in US English or "Kaffir" in South Africa. - Jim Landau From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Sep 24 02:27:14 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:27:14 -0400 Subject: Mexican Strawberry; La Mordida Message-ID: Mike Salovesh's description of the interconnectedness of official & social roles in Mexico reminds me of the world in which Robert Campbell's sewers inspector, Jimmy Flannery, operates in Chicago's wards. A. Murie From mnewman at QC.EDU Mon Sep 24 12:00:24 2001 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:00:24 -0400 Subject: ["yo" examples] In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010921110815.00b20380@nb.net> Message-ID: Doug Wilson makes a good case that 'yo' essentially replaces 'hey' for my informants. >-think in, in um, yo any type of music ... = thinkin' in, um -- hey -- any type of music ... [?] >... like yo, you met Malik? = ... like, 'Hey, you met Malik?' I'm less confident in his assertion about 'you know.' First, the kids frequently use a reduced form of you know what I mean, which "Kareem" transcribes as 'nought I mean.' >... whereas I speak it so I can't really say yo. Looks as though it might be M. Salovesh's "y'know". [I note "whereas": I use it like this but some find it peculiar (pretentious?).] >... I am sayin, breakin is cool yo. Looks like "y'know" again. Not that they couldn't use both forms, but the fact that 'yo' is downstressed and both 'nought I mean' is 'ya know' are more heavily stressed implies some kind of different analysis. Even if they are functional equivalents, what is interesting linguistically with 'yo' is that in the second case is that there is a particle of some kind being used where no particle was ever used before, which is a morphosyntactic change. -- Michael Newman Assistant Professor of Applied Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Sep 24 12:20:10 2001 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:20:10 -0400 Subject: "foo-foo dust" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alice, Me too. I bet this was "really" frou-frou. dInIs (who, as a child, thought all perfume, except paprika, was frou-frou) >David Bergdahl said: >>A family friend who had been a tanker ship's capt. for Texaco used "foo foo >>stuff" for perfume; I later read--maybe on ADS--that it was homosexual slang >>for excrement. I suspect >>that there are a lot of foolish referents... > >Is this related to "frou-frou" for something that's excessively frilly? >(For me, personally, perfume counts here...) >-- >Alice Faber tel. (203) 865-6163 >Haskins Laboratories fax (203) 865-8963 >270 Crown St faber at haskins.yale.edu >New Haven, CT 06511 afaber at wesleyan.edu -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 24 13:18:02 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:18:02 EDT Subject: Ivy League Message-ID: IVY LEAGUE This obituary that I found yesterday intrigues me. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 18 November 1951, pg. 70, col. 6: _George Trevor,_ _Sports Writer, 59_ ------------------ _Authority on Ivy League_ _Football and Golfing_ PORT CHESTER, N. Y., Nov. 17.--George S. Trevor, fifty-nine, sports writer on the former "New York Sun" for twenty-three years, died today at his home, 27 Claremont Avenue. Born In Cooperstown, N. Y., Mr. Trevor attended the Browning School in New York, and was graduated from Yale University in 1915. He worked for "The Brooklyn Eagle" from 1922 to 1926, as a sports feature writer, transferring to "The Sun" in 1928. Mr. Trevor was known as an authority on Ivy League football, and an enthusiastic Yale fan. (Several years ago, I found a "Miss Manhattan" Audrey Munson article from the New York Sun, in the Columbia University Library. When I checked yesterday, the library doesn't have the New York Sun. Curious. I'll check the NYPL in about an hour--ed.) From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM Mon Sep 24 13:33:57 2001 From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Pearsons, Enid) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:33:57 -0400 Subject: "on the may"--typo for "on the way" Message-ID: Typo was just what I was thinking...or rather, thinko or hearo. Could this piece have been dictated over the phone to someone who heard "on the menu" (perhaps pronounced /'menju/) as "...may"? OK, it's a wild guess, but it's one more possibility in that context. "Way" is pretty appealing, too. Enid Enid Pearsons Senior Editor Random House Reference 280 Park Avenue New York, NY 10017 212-572-4916 (voice) 212-572-4997 (fax) > -----Original Message----- > From: Gerald Cohen [mailto:gcohen at UMR.EDU] > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 8:09 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "on the may"--typo for "on the way" > > > My thanx to Frank Abate and Douglas Wilson for their attempts to > unravel "on the may." Since this item doesn't ring a bell with the > ads-l list, and since there is no repeat of the item in all the other > 1913 baseball articles I've read, I think I see the solution: "may" > here is a typo for "way." The baseball popularity contest will be the > hottest thing coming down the pike ("on the way") in a few weeks. > > >Would anyone have any idea what "on the may" means in the quote below > >(newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_ April 22, 1913, p.16/2-3; title: > >"Tub and Del Are Leading"): > > > > 'The baseball popularity contest is growing hotter. It is going > >to get hotter and hotter. It will be the hottest thing on the may in > >a few more weeks. It can't get too hot for The Bulletin. The more > >votes that are polled for the various players of the Pacific Coast > >League the hotter it will be. Let the "heat" flow. ...' > > ---Gerald Cohen > From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Mon Sep 24 13:50:10 2001 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:50:10 -0400 Subject: ..Polish victory lap.. Message-ID: Today's sports pages (24 SEPT 2001) carried an item about the winner of a race at Dover (Delaware) Downs International Speedway. It was noted that the winner "drove the famed 'Polish victory lap'". A search of the web finds the following site which identifies the Polish Victory Lap as being a calculated creation of Alan Kulwicki, in ~1988. http://www.frontstretch.com/varner/varner0403.htm Sorry for any redundancy of information for those who avidly follow NASCAR events, but this is something of a new phrase for me. George Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 24 14:06:19 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:06:19 EDT Subject: Texas Pecan Cake; Bake-Off & Away We Go! Message-ID: BAKE-OFF: The Pillsbury web site says it began in 1949 and was dubbed this almost immediately. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 12 December 1951, pg. 31, col. 1, "...her Starlight Double Delight Chocolate Cake that won the grand prize in the Pillsbury Mills third national bake-off contest..." BEST-DRESSED LIST: NYHT, 11 December 1951, pg. 26, col. 2, "In 1928 he (Emil Hartman, Fashion Academy founder--ed.) inaugurated his annual ritual of giving awards to the year's ten best-dressed American women who wore American clothes." GETTING THERE IS HALF THE FUN!: I've seen this in railroad ads. From THIS WEEK, NYHT, 25 November 1951, pg. 27, it's in a full-page ad for Cunard ships. "--AND AWAY WE GO!": Jackie Gleason used this. It's a cartoon caption in the NYHT, 28 October 1951, section 2, pg. 5, cols. 3-4. WONDER WEAPONS: Pre-Star Wars term. "Concerning Wonder Weapons" is the the topic of Joseph Alsop's column in the NYHT, 21 September 1951, pg. 21, cols. 7-8. THEY ALL CAME TO PLAY: This horrible sports cliche is the breaker in Red Smith's column, NYHT, 11 October 1951, pg. 33, col. 5. I'M DUBIOUS: From a review of TWO-A-DAY VAUDEVILLE with Judy Garland, NYHT, 17 Octboer 1951, pg. 19, col. 5: Among the best known lines in the American theater are Smith & Dale's preamble to "Dr. Kronkheit": "I am the doctor." Smith "I'm dubious." Dale "Glad to meet you, Mr. Dubious," says Smith. -------------------------------------------------------- TEXAS PECAN CAKE This continues "pecan" coverage, for DARE, Barnhardt, whomever. From the NYHT, 4 September 1951, pg. 22, col. 6: _Canned Texas Pecan Cake Arrives This Week_ ------------------------------ _Colorful Creation of Woman_ _Who's Made It a Career_ _Is Ideal as Quick Dessert_ By Clementine Paddleford Texas pecan cake is due this week in New York CIty stores, a cake from Sherman, Tex., Eunice King's Kitchen, this cake her career. Miss King was a home demonstration agent in Grayson County during the early years of the war when quite unexpectedly she found herself catapulted into business. One of the projects she had set up for her women was the preparation of foods for overseas shipment, and part of the demonstration was the canning of cake. Immediately she received so many orders for pecan cakes in the can she decided to resign her job and bake cakes commercially. It was in 1944 that she opened a shop in her own house preparing overseas foods. Almost immediately the business expanded to a point where it couldn't be handled at home, so Miss King set up a kitchen just for cake baking. Today the work requires two assistants and five in the rush periods. Texas pecan cake was one of Miss King's specialties during a three-year period when she operated a tea room. She had taken a basic cake recipe and added good things, pecans, a variety of mixed fruits and made a delicious dessert loaf that could be used either as cake or heated and sauced as a pudding. It's a pretty thing of rich ginger brown sparkling with color. It has a homemade taste and should have, for it is mixed in small quantities for that very purpose and made of all fresh and the best materials. It turns fromthe can in a neat roll to slice and pass with a frozen dessert salad or with ambrosia, a rich bite to enjoy with iced tea or coffee. It's one of those "any time" cakes, a best bet for dessert for unexpected company. Turn the cake from the tin to use as a pudding and top with whipped cream or ice cream. Chill the tin before opening and the cake will slip out neat and easy and slice without crumbling, twelve slices usually from the one-pound roll. We met the cake first in Dallas three years ago, where it was selling in the grocery department of the Nieman-Marcus Company. Later it was met on menus in diners of trains out of Chicago, St. Louis, Denver. Now coming to sell at B. Altman's and Charles & Co., 340 Madison, and the Vendome Table Delicacies, 415 Madison, the retail price for the 1-pound 2-ounce tin $1,60 to $1.75. From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Mon Sep 24 14:49:11 2001 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:49:11 -0500 Subject: ..Polish victory lap.. Message-ID: Tony Adomowitz and some one who's name escapes at the present,(Oscer Kolofky?) formed the PRDA Polish Race Drivers Association, patches were worn in your armpit and they were doing reverse victory laps in the '60's. GSCole wrote: > > Today's sports pages (24 SEPT 2001) carried an item about the winner of > a race at Dover (Delaware) Downs International Speedway. It was noted > that the winner "drove the famed 'Polish victory lap'". > > A search of the web finds the following site which identifies the Polish > Victory Lap as being a calculated creation of Alan Kulwicki, in ~1988. > > http://www.frontstretch.com/varner/varner0403.htm > > Sorry for any redundancy of information for those who avidly follow > NASCAR events, but this is something of a new phrase for me. > > George Cole > gscole at ark.ship.edu > Shippensburg University From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Sep 24 15:04:39 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:04:39 -0400 Subject: FW: Homeland, Motherland Message-ID: I can't vouch for the military use suggested, but "homeland" did make me think of the UK Home Guard of WWII, which was the domestically based military for defense/defence of the UK itself, in case of invasion or other incursion. OED shows uses of "homeland" back into the 17th century. It connotes one's native land along with the "warm" overtones of the word "home", and long has. I would say that "homeland security" is, then, simply a combination of two established words, in keeping with the regular rules of English. And the word choice seems to me appropriate to the application. It has been noted that the White House or the Pentagon (whichever) backed away from "Infinite Justice" when it was pointed out that Islam teaches that such is only from Allah. You would have hoped that they had picked up on that before issuing the code word, but at least they changed their minds quickly. It was also noted that Bush has backed away from some ill-chosen terms, like referring to the hijackers as "folks" (in one of his earliest statements on Sept 11), and alluding to the Old West with "Wanted Dead or Alive" re bin Laden. His own "natural language" is frequently subject to derision, as has often been noted. On the other hand, his speech last week to Congress was very measured, with simple words and brief, declarative sentences. He has a very good speechwriter who wrote to the occasion in words well-suited to the speaker, and Bush delivered it well, I felt. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of pskuhlman at JUNO.COM Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 12:18 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Homeland, Motherland I believe"homeland defense" is a military term that has been borrowed in naming the new cabinet level department, but don't know when it originated in the military lexicon. Patricia Kuhlman pskuhlman at juno.com Brooklyn, NY On Sat, 22 Sep 2001 23:44:07 -0400 Thomas Paikeday writes: > I wonder if this use of "homeland" is another example of the "Bush > Dyslexicon," like the use of "infinite" in "Infinite Justice." > > leslie savan wrote: > > > > Gov. Tom Ridge will head the new cabinet-level Office of Homeland > > Security. "Homeland" evokes for me the sound of "Motherland" and, > to a > > lesser degree, "Fatherland." Is there anyone out there who has > detailed > > the history of these words and how, if at all, they've been used > > interchangeably? > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Sep 24 16:10:43 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 12:10:43 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Searching Press Releases Message-ID: This message comes to me from the labor-and-union-history librarian here at NYU. The database may be of use for the study of political and social terms and idioms. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Andrew H. Lee" Subject: Searching Press Releases Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:48:02 -0400 Size: 2062 URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 24 17:01:58 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:01:58 EDT Subject: "Mr. Inside and Mr. Outside" Message-ID: For the Yalies on the list. Maybe Yale has info on this writer? The NEW YORK TIMES obituary of George S. Trevor does _NOT_ state that he coined "Ivy League," but his columns are worth looking at. From 18 November 1951, pg. 90, col. 3: A graduate of Yale, Mr. Trevor became one of the country's leading authorities on Ivy League football. He recently was introduced to the Yale squad by its coach, Herman Hickman, as "the man who has done more than anyone else for Yale football." (...) He was generally credited with creating the catch phrase, "Mr. Inside and Mr. Outside," to describe the two Army backfield stars, "Doc" Blanchard and Glenn Davis. (...) Mr. Trevor was a former president of the New York Football Writers Association, the Track and Field Writers Assoication and the Touchdown Club of New York. From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Mon Sep 24 17:08:37 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:08:37 -0400 Subject: More Frenchified? Message-ID: (For the sake of those who rely on automated message threading I am resisting the temptation to change the subject line to "You want Frenchified with that?", or possibly "Frenchific(a)tion".) >>>>> [Rima McKinzey] >On the phone to the reservation person for the Westin Hotel chain, I >asked if she knew how one got from the airport to the hotel in >question. She said, several times and very clearly, that I'd have to >talk to the "conseeAIR." > >Could this be because this sounds more French than concierge? It's a >new one for me. [Larry Horn] I'm sure it is. The hyper-Frenchification I've noticed most often is "COO D'GRAH" for coup de grace. The rule seems to be "don't pronounce the last consonant", period. At least in your case the reservation person might have had extra motivation for avoiding the final -rzh cluster, but there's certainly no similar excuse for avoiding [gras]. <<<<< As long as I have known her (since 1968) my wife has tended to apply this rule, which I call "French final consonant deletion". "Coup de gra^ce" ['ku d@ 'gra] is the instantiation I hear from her most often. I think we can treat it as a form of hypercorrection. I know she had at least one incompetent French teacher in high school, but whatever the cause, she seems to have internalized the French rule "a final consonant letter is silent unless it's c,r,f,l, or q" as "drop the final consonant sound that you think belongs there" All unconsciously, of course. She knows better, but it's down in her phonology where she can't grab it and wring its neck. Some misunderstood form of the actual rule of thumb is (in my totally wild-guess opinion) probably the best known "fact" of French pronunciation to Americans, and often the only one. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Mon Sep 24 17:18:39 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:18:39 -0400 Subject: elope Message-ID: Thomas Paikeday writes: >>>>> Is "elope" in the old sense of "escape" common in contemporary English? All the examples in my database are in the sense of "run away together to get married," as in "Dick eloped with Jane" and "They eloped." <<<<< Not in general use for 'escape', no. But in mental hospitals it is a common term for 'go AWOL, leave without permission'. It is not restricted to 'escape'-- which I would define for this purpose as 'leave without permission intending not to return'-- but can be used for, e.g., going out overnight without permission, with the intention of coming back the next day. Whether or not the patient actually does return is IMHO outside the semantic scope of the verb. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Sep 24 05:42:09 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:42:09 +0800 Subject: Texas Pecan Cake In-Reply-To: <68.14950dc7.28e097dc@aol.com> Message-ID: At 10:06 AM -0400 9/24/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >-------------------------------------------------------- >TEXAS PECAN CAKE > > This continues "pecan" coverage, for DARE, Barnhardt, whomever. > From the NYHT, 4 September 1951, pg. 22, col. 6: > >_Canned Texas Pecan Cake Arrives This Week_ >------------------------------ >_Colorful Creation of Woman_ > _Who's Made It a Career_ > _Is Ideal as Quick Dessert_ >By Clementine Paddleford > Texas pecan cake is due this week in New York CIty stores, a cake >from Sherman, Tex., Eunice King's Kitchen, this cake her career. >... We met the cake first in Dallas three years ago, where it was >selling in the grocery department of the Nieman-Marcus Company... ...and probably for less than those $20,000 chocolate chip cookies Neiman-Marcus has since become known for l From jmiller at FRANKLINCOLLEGE.EDU Mon Sep 24 18:43:47 2001 From: jmiller at FRANKLINCOLLEGE.EDU (Miller, Jerry) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:43:47 -0500 Subject: ..Polish victory lap.. Message-ID: I would just add, before someone asks, that the naming of the clockwise victory lap was not a creation of "Polish humor" in the usual, politically incorrect sense. Kulwicki, who was of Polish descent, did make it something of a joke against himself when he did it. But it is now quite serious as a tribute to Kulwicki, who, after winning the 1992 NASCAR championship, was killed in a plane crash. Many race winners did the reverse lap in his memory in the months after his death, and now it seems to have been revived, still in his honor (the "frontstretch" Web site below includes the comments of Rusty Wallace, who noted that after he bypassed the currently common post-victory "doughnuts" and/or "burnouts" for a Polish victory lap recently). And now you know the rest of the story (whether you wanted it or not). Jerry Miller jmiller at franklincollege.edu > -----Original Message----- > From: GSCole [SMTP:gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU] > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 8:50 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: ..Polish victory lap.. > > Today's sports pages (24 SEPT 2001) carried an item about the winner of > a race at Dover (Delaware) Downs International Speedway. It was noted > that the winner "drove the famed 'Polish victory lap'". > > A search of the web finds the following site which identifies the Polish > Victory Lap as being a calculated creation of Alan Kulwicki, in ~1988. > > http://www.frontstretch.com/varner/varner0403.htm > > Sorry for any redundancy of information for those who avidly follow > NASCAR events, but this is something of a new phrase for me. > > George Cole > gscole at ark.ship.edu > Shippensburg University From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 24 19:06:05 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 15:06:05 EDT Subject: Deke (1935) Message-ID: OED has 1960 and 1961. I was looking for "Ivy League," but don't tell anybody that. From the NEW YORK SUN, 3 January 1935, Frank Graham's sports column (this one about pro hockey), pg. 31, col. 1: _It Seems He Caught Normie "Deking."_ (...) "Aw," said the little fellow, "I caught you deking, else I wouldn't have been able to hit you like that. "How do you spell deking? Gee, I don't know. I never saw it in print. I guess it's d-e-k-i-n-g. Don't you know what it means? Well, when a fellow is coming at you with the rubber and he tries to get you to make your move first by shifting his feet or swaying his body, or going like this with his stick, you say he is deking. When a fellow is deking it's a cinch to knock him down because the chances are he has one foot off the ice and is off balance." From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Sep 24 20:42:58 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 16:42:58 -0400 Subject: How do you say "barn"? Message-ID: A discussion of Boston accents from the Boston Globe: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/252/metro/How_do_you_say_Barn_+.shtml 'You've got to realize there is no `Boston accent'; there are several Boston accents,'' Connolly says. ''Charlestown and Somerville talk very differently from people in Dorchester. Boston English as spoken in the North End is very different from that spoken in South Boston.'' Connolly tested his theory last weekend while roaming Fenway Park, which he called possibly the best dialect laboratory in the city. In the stands before a game, Connolly found examples of what he described as four major strains of Boston speech. To Connolly, there's the ''southern Boston'' accent, born in neighborhoods such as South Boston, Dorchester, and Roxbury; a ''northwest'' sound, rooted in Cambridge and Somerville; a ''northeast'' accent, formed in East Boston and the North End; and the hoary Brahmin dialect from the Back Bay and Beacon Hill. -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Sep 24 22:38:49 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:38:49 -0400 Subject: How do you say "barn"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We've got to assume Connolly has not seen American Tongues? Or he would have known that his "theory" was propounded a long time ago. dInIs >A discussion of Boston accents from the Boston Globe: > >http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/252/metro/How_do_you_say_Barn_+.shtml > >'You've got to realize there is no `Boston accent'; there are several Boston >accents,'' Connolly says. ''Charlestown and Somerville talk very differently >from people in Dorchester. Boston English as spoken in the North End is very >different from that spoken in South Boston.'' > >Connolly tested his theory last weekend while roaming Fenway Park, which he >called possibly the best dialect laboratory in the city. In the stands >before a game, Connolly found examples of what he described as four major >strains of Boston speech. > >To Connolly, there's the ''southern Boston'' accent, born in neighborhoods >such as South Boston, Dorchester, and Roxbury; a ''northwest'' sound, rooted >in Cambridge and Somerville; a ''northeast'' accent, formed in East Boston >and the North End; and the hoary Brahmin dialect from the Back Bay and >Beacon Hill. > >-- > >Grant Barrett >gbarrett at worldnewyork.org >http://www.worldnewyork.org/ >New York Loves You Back -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 24 23:05:23 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:05:23 EDT Subject: Bonanza (1829) Message-ID: TRAVELS IN THE INTERIOR OF MEXICO IN 1825, 1826, 1827 & 1828 by Lieut. R. W. H. Harvey Henry Colburn and Richard Bentley, London 1829 Pg. 78: ...the mine, _it is said_, will be shortly in "bonanza" (pay a large profit)! ("Bonanza" is also used on page 145...OED, M-W have 1840s--ed.) Pg. 460: The neighboring mountains abound with Mexcal, which makes a very strong liquor; and although Don Manuel has only two small and very imperfect stills, they brings him in a profit of thirty dollars a day throughout the year. It may perhaps be well to describe the manner in which liquor is made from the Mexcal, which is a species of socotrine aloe. (...) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 24 23:35:33 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:35:33 EDT Subject: Racket Slang (NY Sun, 1935) Message-ID: From the NEW YORK SUN, 19 February 1935, pg. 28, col. 1: _Racket Slang Explains Itself_ _Odd Phrases That Are Ingeniously Devised to Trap_ _the Unwary Customer._ The slang of gangsters is treated more with amusement than personal interest by the average man, who sees in it no practical application to his own affairs. The chance that he will ever be taken for a ride is remote. But the commercial underworld has a language of its own that is worth learning. The man who understands it has some insurance against the risks of losing his money on bad merchandise or financial rackets. Living on the fringe of legitimate trade are merchants and salesmen who find profit in ignoring copybook ethics. With special words and phrases they can even discuss the details of the crime in the presence of a sucker without alarming him. To the prospective buyer of an automobile from a disreputable second-hand dealer there might seem to be nothing sinister in a remark about "hushing him $100 on the smacko," but this should be the signal to leave in a hurry. A smacko is a badly wrecked car that has been rebuilt. The process of bushing is to get the customer "in the bag for a d. p." (signing up with a down payment), and then, when the final contract is to be signed, to raise the price above that which was set originally. The price-raising is not disclosed until after the dealer has picked up the original receipt, leaving the buyer with no evidence of either the agreed price or more important, the down payment. The chances of getting the $100 back therefore, are negligible, and the car at the new price is obviously no bargain. "Iron" is the dealer's name for an obsolete model. "Cuffing" or "macing" a car is the term for a purchase by the dealer from an individual upon a small cash payment and a series of notes which he has no intention of meeting. Better Business Bureuas have developed their own slang for some common rackets. The "residence dealer" is a retailer who pretends to be selling his personal goods from his home, which would be a "stuffed flat." "Hearse chasers" are vultures who prey on the estate or relatives of dead men by presenting false claims or selling biographies at exorbitant prices or in dozens of other ways. A "pass-the-hat society" is an insurance company that collects death benefits for members by assessment of survivors. "Puff sheets" are magazines generally having a name closely resembling some reputable publication but depending upon the sale of extra copies to gullible business men who are written up in extravagent phrases or praise. "Mug books" serve a similar function but specialize in photographs. "Charity rackets" are merchandizing or soliciting schemes depending upon an appeal to the pity of the customers, whether they are buying goods supposed to be for the benefit of an orphanage or contributing to a fake synagogue. The sucker has many names among the crooks. "Lily," "mug," "pushover," and "mooch" are the most common. After a "pushover" has been sold he is a "wrap-up." Real estate developers use the "lunch and lecture" system, carrying the prospects by bus or train to the property, feeding them and subjecting them to a talk by a "spieler." Checks are "maps." Financial racketeers have been less active since the securities act of 1933 and securities exchange act of 1934 were passed, but plenty of "dynamiters" (high pressure salesmen of stock) are still out of jail. The "dynamiter" may use a "bird dog," a tout who furnishes (Col. 2--ed.) prospects and talks up the securities among his acquaintances; a "coxy," an inexperiences salesman good for small sales; a "boiler room," in which a group of salesmen work by telephone, disregarding expense of long distance talks and probably settling bills every day; a "tip sheet," a phony financial publication to boost stock issues, and a "reloader," who can sell more stock to a sucker who already has made a small investment. In the "one-call racket" a prospect is dropped unless he can be sold on the first visit. The "dynamiter" may be a "hundred percenter" or a "converter," one who trades something worthless for a marketable security previously owned by the sucker. To establish confidence the racketeer may sell a good stock first and induce an exchange for worthless paper. This is the "sell-and-switch" method. The "razz" is the selling talk. An "advance fee" operator is an underwriter who gets money from the issuer of securities before he sells them. "Front money" is advance commission to a salesman. "Hot stuff" is the literature effective in selling. A "kit" is a fancy portfolio to help the salesman. It may include a letter purporting to be from bankers approving the deal or the sponsors. "Scenery," a board of directors with impressive names, is helpful. The "reloader" uses the same term for dividend checks to be waved under the eyes of prospective victims. Complaints that stir up the "three B's" (Better Business Bureau), or the "P. O." (post office inspectors), or "Sec" are "squawks." The most important interruption tothe activity of financial racketeers is "tagging," or indictment. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Sep 24 23:37:19 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:37:19 EDT Subject: Bonanza (1829) Message-ID: Both should read "Mezcal." From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Sep 24 13:16:24 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 21:16:24 +0800 Subject: How do you say "barn"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:38 PM -0400 9/24/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >We've got to assume Connolly has not seen American Tongues? Or he >would have known that his "theory" was propounded a long time ago. Take the words right out of my mouth (again), will you. I quite like the sequence where the screen splits in four, then sixteen, then 64, each illustrating (we presume--it's a bit hard to tell) a different Boston accent. At least Brahmin, Dorchester, Roxbury and North End are well represented in the scene. LH >>A discussion of Boston accents from the Boston Globe: >> >>http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/252/metro/How_do_you_say_Barn_+.shtml >> >>'You've got to realize there is no `Boston accent'; there are several Boston >>accents,'' Connolly says. ''Charlestown and Somerville talk very differently >>from people in Dorchester. Boston English as spoken in the North End is very >>different from that spoken in South Boston.'' >> >>Connolly tested his theory last weekend while roaming Fenway Park, which he >>called possibly the best dialect laboratory in the city. In the stands >>before a game, Connolly found examples of what he described as four major >>strains of Boston speech. >> >>To Connolly, there's the ''southern Boston'' accent, born in neighborhoods >>such as South Boston, Dorchester, and Roxbury; a ''northwest'' sound, rooted >>in Cambridge and Somerville; a ''northeast'' accent, formed in East Boston >>and the North End; and the hoary Brahmin dialect from the Back Bay and >>Beacon Hill. >> >>-- >> >>Grant Barrett >>gbarrett at worldnewyork.org >>http://www.worldnewyork.org/ >>New York Loves You Back > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >Department of Linguistics and Languages >Michigan State University >East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA >preston at pilot.msu.edu >Office: (517)353-0740 >Fax: (517)432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Sep 24 14:10:56 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 22:10:56 +0800 Subject: Deke (1935) In-Reply-To: <11a.47e4fcf.28e0de1d@aol.com> Message-ID: At 3:06 PM -0400 9/24/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > OED has 1960 and 1961. I was looking for "Ivy League," but don't >tell anybody that. > From the NEW YORK SUN, 3 January 1935, Frank Graham's sports >column (this one about pro hockey), pg. 31, col. 1: > > _It Seems He Caught Normie "Deking."_ >(...) > "Aw," said the little fellow, "I caught you deking, else I >wouldn't have been able to hit you like that. > "How do you spell deking? Gee, I don't know. I never saw it in >print. I guess it's d-e-k-i-n-g. Don't you know what it means? >Well, when a fellow is coming at you with the rubber and he tries to >get you to make your move first by shifting his feet or swaying his >body, or going like this with his stick, you say he is deking. When >a fellow is deking it's a cinch to knock him down because the >chances are he has one foot off the ice and is off balance." Wow. RHHDAS doesn't have anything for this "deke" or the associated noun any earlier than 1960 (given as a Canadianism, of course also in a hockey context), so Barry's 1935 (1935?) find is very impressive. The term is still used quite freely in sports contexts, the locus classicus being for a crucial moment in the 1991 World Series when the then rookie second baseman Chuck Knoblauch of the Minnesota Twins deked Atlanta Braves baserunner Lonnie Smith out of his...well, uniform on a hit to the wall on which Smith could have easily scored what would have been the winning (and only) run in the seventh and final game. Knoblauch pretended to be about to field a throw at second base when the ball was actually rolling around in (if memory serves) deep left field. The well and truly deked Smith slid into third and the game went into extra innings, the Twins finally winning the game 1-0 in the 10th and with it the Series.) The origin is plausibly taken in RHHDAS to be a clip from "decoy" attested earlier in hunters' lingo, and a quote is included from Hemingway (1950) in which "deke" refers literally to a duck decoy. If the athletes' "deke" was really spawned by an earlier hunters' "deke" (for the actual decoy), there should be pre-1935 cites for the latter. Or perhaps they both developed independently as clips from "decoy", with the sports nominal and verbal "deke" getting there first. Then there are the capital-D Dekes, the frat boys from DKE, but there's no relation here. The earliest cite for that Deke (Yale, 1871) spells it as "Deak" and has this puzzling (to me) remark: "DKE men are often called 'Deaks' by the others, but as this word is somewhat akin to an epithet it is not employed in their presence". I can't figure out if the implication was that there's a taboo association (but with what epithet that sounds like it?) or that it's just used as a semi-slur. There is evidently a bit of a reputation problem; Mailer's Naked and the Dead has a reference cited here to "a Cornell man, a Deke, a perfect asshole." larry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Sep 25 02:39:26 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 22:39:26 -0400 Subject: infinite Message-ID: Besides Muslims, I think even practising Catholics like me would be taken aback by Bush's use of "infinite." It smacks of infinite arrogance. Idiomatically, as we know, "infinite" primarily goes with nouns like "being, compassion, knowledge, love, mercy, perfection, wisdom," etc., all of which refer to the Almighty. Secondarily, "infinite" (in the sense of "unlimited") is used to modify nouns like "detail, number, patience, possibilities, range, variety," etc. In technical usage, they speak of "infinite baffles, gas valves, heat settings," etc. Compare also the use of the word in mathematics, music, and grammar. I get the impression that Bush and Co. blamed Islamic teachings as an easy escape from a situation that is messy not only theologically but also idiomatically. But there is no denying the speech, whoever wrote it, was superb. > It has been noted that the White House or the Pentagon (whichever) backed > away from "Infinite Justice" when it was pointed out that Islam teaches that > such is only from Allah. You would have hoped that they had picked up on > that before issuing the code word, but at least they changed their minds > quickly. > > From Davidhwaet at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 03:56:03 2001 From: Davidhwaet at AOL.COM (David Carlson) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 23:56:03 EDT Subject: How do you say "barn"? Message-ID: All of this speculation about the number of Boston accents demonstrates that Fred Cassidy was correct when he said, "It all depends on how you want to slice the pie." or words to that effect. American Tongues did well in some of its slices, and others begin the slice at Route 128. I'm certain someone could find one at Upham's Corner or Codman Square. And if you listen carefully you can find it many miles away from Fenway Park. Thanks, Fred. David R. Carlson Amherst MA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 04:14:50 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 00:14:50 EDT Subject: Deke (1935) Message-ID: In a message dated 9/24/2001 10:12:27 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << >Well, when a fellow is coming at you with the rubber and he tries to >get you to make your move first by shifting his feet or swaying his >body, or going like this with his stick, you say he is deking. >> At least the fellow wants to play safe. From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Sep 25 12:07:23 2001 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:07:23 -0400 Subject: Deke (1935) In-Reply-To: <10.12fddc1e.28e15eba@aol.com> Message-ID: I am perhaps coming to this discussion late and I apologize if this information has already been given, but when I frequented the Hamilton (Ontario) area in the late 60's, "deke" was not exclusively used in hockey (if that is the game described above - hard for a Louisvillian to tell). It meant any slight direction change. For example, I got instructions from a local one day to "go down this road a bit and then deke left," the kind of little turn you make when there's a "jog" in the road. dInIs >In a message dated 9/24/2001 10:12:27 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > ><< >Well, when a fellow is coming at you with the rubber and he tries to >>get you to make your move first by shifting his feet or swaying his >>body, or going like this with his stick, you say he is deking. >> > >At least the fellow wants to play safe. -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 25 01:36:01 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:36:01 +0800 Subject: Deke (1935) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:07 AM -0400 9/25/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >I am perhaps coming to this discussion late and I apologize if this >information has already been given, but when I frequented the >Hamilton (Ontario) area in the late 60's, "deke" was not exclusively >used in hockey (if that is the game described above - hard for a >Louisvillian to tell). It meant any slight direction change. For >example, I got instructions from a local one day to "go down this >road a bit and then deke left," the kind of little turn you make when >there's a "jog" in the road. > >dInIs I agree that by the late 60's a deke could be any feinting move of this sort, whether or not the deker intended to deceive the dekee (as in the hockey/basketball/football/baseball/boxing examples) or simply for the "slight direction change" where it might be argued the road (designer) was trying to deke you (out). But if the derivation from "decoy" is right, it would make sense that the earliest uses would be from the sporting world (including the hunting examples where the dekees are ducks). I don't know if there are any examples of deke as a verb in the hunting context, though. larry From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Tue Sep 25 14:05:01 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:05:01 -0400 Subject: How do you say "barn"? Message-ID: I read the characterization of "his theory" to be the reporter's, not necessarily Connolly's. John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis R. Preston [SMTP:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 6:39 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: How do you say "barn"? > > We've got to assume Connolly has not seen American Tongues? Or he > would have known that his "theory" was propounded a long time ago. > > dInIs > > >A discussion of Boston accents from the Boston Globe: > > > >http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/252/metro/How_do_you_say_Barn_+.shtml > > > >Connolly tested his theory last weekend while roaming Fenway Park, which > he > >called possibly the best dialect laboratory in the city. In the stands > >before a game, Connolly found examples of what he described as four major > >strains of Boston speech. > > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 14:23:11 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:23:11 EDT Subject: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) Message-ID: From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 25 January 1947, pg. 11, col. 7: _Pizzas of Cheese and Sausage_ _Baked Brown in Sally's Oven_ ---------------------------- _Golden Stuffed Pies Are_ _Baked to Order in This_ _East Harlem Hideaway_ By Clementine Paddleford Let's do something different tonight. And why not? Don't you get bored with the smart restaurant-type meal, each just like the other? Heaven knows that we do. Now is the moment to strike out for Sally's at 2217 First Avenue, between 113th and 114th Streets, location East Harlem, in the heart of Little Italy. The pizzas you'll love and ditto for Sally, and ditto for Sally's wife, Anna. Quaff the red wine; eat pizza pie. Stay past your bed time. No weariness tomorrow, for you have had fun. Just for this evening be a young sprout again. Pizza, that's the great thing. Sally is one of a pizza-making family. Sally's Dad made the pizzas at the age of eleven to peddle by the slice through the streets of Naples. In 1902, when Dad was in his twenties and Sally was a baby, the family came to New York. Dad set up the first pizzeria in the East Harlem section; now pizzerias dot the blocks. (...) It's a sausage cheese pizza Sally is making. Italian tomato sauce is poured over the dough, then cubes of mozzarelle cheese are laid on, next locatelli grated cheese, then little pieces of a dry link pork sausage which is made in the restaurant. Over all a pouring of oil; remember oil to an Italian means olive oil and only the best. The pizza board is picked up and carried to the open brick oven, a quick shove and the pie slides into the heat. It bakes in five minutes to a golden cheese-dripping goodness. (...)(Col. 8--ed.) Pizzas are in four kinds, cheese 60 cents and $1.15, according to the size, anchovy 65 cents and $1.25, sausage and cheese 85 cents and $1.65 and half-and-half, large size only, $1.25. STUFFED PIE--The stuffed pizza, or call it calzonia, is Anna's great glory. This takes the same dough as the pizza, but the architecture is different. First ricotta, then mozzarelle, next thinly sliced prosciutto, over this grated locatelli, a sprinkle of pepper and at last the olive oil. Now the pie is folded like an apple turnover, its halves sealed with the fingers. It's smeared lightly with olive oil and into the oven. The very dickens to eat, finger food, of course, and for us it dribbled untidily, but "love that pie all the same." (I previously recorded a "calzone" in a 1947 Manhattan telephone book ad...Lombardi's on Spring Street claims to be the first pizzeria in the Western World. It opened in 1905; Sally's dad came in 1902?...Pizza by the slice in Naples in the 1890s?...Shouldn't that eleven-year-old have been in school?--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 25 03:02:33 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:02:33 +0800 Subject: Little Italy north? (1947) In-Reply-To: <7d.1b69fbb4.28e1ed50@aol.com> Message-ID: At 10:23 AM -0400 9/25/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 25 January 1947, pg. 11, col. 7: > >_Pizzas of Cheese and Sausage_ >_Baked Brown in Sally's Oven_ >---------------------------- >_Golden Stuffed Pies Are_ > _Baked to Order in This_ > _East Harlem Hideaway_ > By Clementine Paddleford > Let's do something different tonight. And why not? Don't you >get bored with the smart restaurant-type meal, each just like the >other? Heaven knows that we do. Now is the moment to strike out >for Sally's at 2217 First Avenue, between 113th and 114th Streets, >location East Harlem, in the heart of Little Italy. The pizzas >you'll love and ditto for Sally, and ditto for Sally's wife, Anna. >Quaff the red wine; eat pizza pie. Getting us hungry again, Barry. I was struck by this application of "the heart of Little Italy" to a quarter within East Harlem. For me, the only "Little Italy" in New York is and was in lower Manhattan, abutting Chinatown, including the Spring Street location mentioned later in Barry's post, Mulberry St., etc. Was "Little Italy" applied to both these geographically quite distinct areas back in the 40's? Or was it just a cover term for any part of New York inhabited by Italians? It sounds from this context like the former is the case, and Paddleford should know, but I still find it strange. (I love the nostalgic value of "pizza pie"--was this largely a New York designation, or do others remember this as standard mid-century (or later) usage elsewhere?) larry From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 15:28:34 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:28:34 EDT Subject: Little Italy north? (1947) Message-ID: "Little Italy" was applied to several Italian neighborhoods in NYC over the years. Even today, the Belmont area of the Bronx is known as Little Italy. Steve Boatti From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Sep 25 15:47:11 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:47:11 -0400 Subject: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) Message-ID: Barry's details and dates below are instructive, and blow away the claim (which I never believed anyway) that the first pizzas were made in New Haven, a local myth in Connecticut. The spelling is always "calzone" around here. Re "pizza pie", as a former Midwesterner, I can report that referring to a pizza as a "pie", common in the NYC-area (and elsewhere? DARE files?) struck me as odd when I first heard it. To me it was never called anything but "pizza", and "pizza pie" was only known from the lyrics of the Dean Martin song "That's Amore". One can also ask for a "slice of pie" in NYC, which in Ohio/Michigan would mean something with fruit or cream (or whatever) in it, not pizza, not ever. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 10:23 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 25 January 1947, pg. 11, col. 7: _Pizzas of Cheese and Sausage_ _Baked Brown in Sally's Oven_ ---------------------------- _Golden Stuffed Pies Are_ _Baked to Order in This_ _East Harlem Hideaway_ By Clementine Paddleford Let's do something different tonight. And why not? Don't you get bored with the smart restaurant-type meal, each just like the other? Heaven knows that we do. Now is the moment to strike out for Sally's at 2217 First Avenue, between 113th and 114th Streets, location East Harlem, in the heart of Little Italy. The pizzas you'll love and ditto for Sally, and ditto for Sally's wife, Anna. Quaff the red wine; eat pizza pie. Stay past your bed time. No weariness tomorrow, for you have had fun. Just for this evening be a young sprout again. Pizza, that's the great thing. Sally is one of a pizza-making family. Sally's Dad made the pizzas at the age of eleven to peddle by the slice through the streets of Naples. In 1902, when Dad was in his twenties and Sally was a baby, the family came to New York. Dad set up the first pizzeria in the East Harlem section; now pizzerias dot the blocks. (...) It's a sausage cheese pizza Sally is making. Italian tomato sauce is poured over the dough, then cubes of mozzarelle cheese are laid on, next locatelli grated cheese, then little pieces of a dry link pork sausage which is made in the restaurant. Over all a pouring of oil; remember oil to an Italian means olive oil and only the best. The pizza board is picked up and carried to the open brick oven, a quick shove and the pie slides into the heat. It bakes in five minutes to a golden cheese-dripping goodness. (...)(Col. 8--ed.) Pizzas are in four kinds, cheese 60 cents and $1.15, according to the size, anchovy 65 cents and $1.25, sausage and cheese 85 cents and $1.65 and half-and-half, large size only, $1.25. STUFFED PIE--The stuffed pizza, or call it calzonia, is Anna's great glory. This takes the same dough as the pizza, but the architecture is different. First ricotta, then mozzarelle, next thinly sliced prosciutto, over this grated locatelli, a sprinkle of pepper and at last the olive oil. Now the pie is folded like an apple turnover, its halves sealed with the fingers. It's smeared lightly with olive oil and into the oven. The very dickens to eat, finger food, of course, and for us it dribbled untidily, but "love that pie all the same." (I previously recorded a "calzone" in a 1947 Manhattan telephone book ad...Lombardi's on Spring Street claims to be the first pizzeria in the Western World. It opened in 1905; Sally's dad came in 1902?...Pizza by the slice in Naples in the 1890s?...Shouldn't that eleven-year-old have been in school?--ed.) From chyatt at BALDWIN.K12.GA.US Tue Sep 25 15:59:12 2001 From: chyatt at BALDWIN.K12.GA.US (Charles Hyatt) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:59:12 -0400 Subject: alpha male Message-ID: I am trying to discover the origin of the term "alpha male". I am aware of its meaning, the ranking male in a (mammalian) group of animals such as primates or wolves, and of its use by Naomi Wolf in her consulting work for Al Gore, but I have not been able to locate the FIRST use. Any help appreciated. Thanks. Charles Hyatt chyatt at baldwin.k12.ga.us -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Tue Sep 25 16:46:31 2001 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:46:31 -0500 Subject: Little Italy north/pizza pie Message-ID: Grew up in Chicago, and in the '40's and 50's it was called pizza pie, slowly morphed into pizza and once in a great while "pie" As in "I'll have a medium sausage pie" Laurence Horn wrote: > > At 10:23 AM -0400 9/25/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 25 January 1947, pg. 11, col. 7: > > > >_Pizzas of Cheese and Sausage_ > >_Baked Brown in Sally's Oven_ > >---------------------------- > >_Golden Stuffed Pies Are_ > > _Baked to Order in This_ > > _East Harlem Hideaway_ > > By Clementine Paddleford > > Let's do something different tonight. And why not? Don't you > >get bored with the smart restaurant-type meal, each just like the > >other? Heaven knows that we do. Now is the moment to strike out > >for Sally's at 2217 First Avenue, between 113th and 114th Streets, > >location East Harlem, in the heart of Little Italy. The pizzas > >you'll love and ditto for Sally, and ditto for Sally's wife, Anna. > >Quaff the red wine; eat pizza pie. > > Getting us hungry again, Barry. I was struck by this application of > "the heart of Little Italy" to a quarter within East Harlem. For me, > the only "Little Italy" in New York is and was in lower Manhattan, > abutting Chinatown, including the Spring Street location mentioned > later in Barry's post, Mulberry St., etc. Was "Little Italy" applied > to both these geographically quite distinct areas back in the 40's? > Or was it just a cover term for any part of New York inhabited by > Italians? It sounds from this context like the former is the case, > and Paddleford should know, but I still find it strange. > > (I love the nostalgic value of "pizza pie"--was this largely a New > York designation, or do others remember this as standard mid-century > (or later) usage elsewhere?) > > larry From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Tue Sep 25 16:32:55 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:32:55 -0400 Subject: "on the may"--typo for "on the way" Message-ID: "Pearsons, Enid" writes: >>>>> Typo was just what I was thinking...or rather, thinko or hearo. Could this piece have been dictated over the phone to someone who heard "on the menu" (perhaps pronounced /'menju/) as "...may"? OK, it's a wild guess, but it's one more possibility in that context. "Way" is pretty appealing, too. <<<<< Or reado? A handwritten "w" misread as "m"? Not as likely: a speako, actually missaid on the phone. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company : speech recognition 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Sep 25 16:53:53 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:53:53 -0700 Subject: Little Italy north? (1947) Message-ID: larry horn: >(I love the nostalgic value of "pizza pie"--was this largely a New >York designation, or do others remember this as standard mid-century >(or later) usage elsewhere?) i remember it from the late 40s/early 50s in eastern pennsylvania. i remember "tomato pie" too, though it went out of use pretty fast. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), when the moon hits your eye... From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Sep 25 17:15:29 2001 From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:15:29 -0400 Subject: More 9.11-Related Words Message-ID: For those who may be keeping a list of terms related to the Sept. 11 attacks: The Pit - Can't remember if this has been mentioned here already. This is the term that rescue workers use for WTC ground zero. "The pile" seems to be used interchangeably by the news media, but I assume the pile is the mound of rubble and the pit is the honeycombed pathways being cut within it to search for survivors underneath the wreckage. Burger King Special - Used by a DC Air National Guard captain on DC local news to describe the type of fighter jet being used to protect Capitol airspace. Used to describe a plane that has a full compliment of weapons. From the Burger King "Hold the pickles, hold the lettuce" campaign promoting the "Have it your way" burger. I'd imagine this term is far from new. OBL Factor - ["Osama bin Laden Factor"] Just heard this one on MSNBC, given as a reason why Muslims may be hesitant to give money to Islamic charities in the future (fearing that some of the money may be secretly going to terrorist orgs). A Web search finds that this term has been around for years and is used generally to refer to the impact that bin Laden is having on policies in and towards the Muslim/Arab world. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 25 17:09:28 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:09:28 -0400 Subject: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Frank Abate wrote: > Barry's details and dates below are instructive, and blow away the claim > (which I never believed anyway) that the first pizzas were made in New > Haven, a local myth in Connecticut. There is also a local myth hereabouts that the hamburger was invented at Louie's Lunch in New Haven, but evidence for the 19th-century existence of the term "hamburger," furnished by historical dictionaries and by Barry's researches, disproves that one as well. I think the local claim that "frisbee" originated in New Haven is authentic. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 17:21:44 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:21:44 EDT Subject: More 9.11-Related Words Message-ID: There's also a sick internet joke (delete now!), in the "Chicken Kiev" manner (over 50 hits on Google), involving Osama bin Laden's appearance on a cooking show with his new dish, "Big Apple Crumble." From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 25 05:46:40 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:46:40 +0800 Subject: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:09 PM -0400 9/25/01, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Frank Abate wrote: > >> Barry's details and dates below are instructive, and blow away the claim >> (which I never believed anyway) that the first pizzas were made in New >> Haven, a local myth in Connecticut. > >There is also a local myth hereabouts that the hamburger was invented at >Louie's Lunch in New Haven, but evidence for the 19th-century existence of >the term "hamburger," furnished by historical dictionaries and by Barry's >researches, disproves that one as well. > >I think the local claim that "frisbee" originated in New Haven is >authentic. > Poor New Haven. We'll be left with just our frisbees to cry into. And maybe our (hot) dogs, based on Barry's evidence from the Yale Record--it would be ironic if we have to give up our primacy in burgers only to capture pride of place for the dogs. But in any case, it's not LOUIE'S but LOUIS' Lunch (on Crown Street) that claims to have fathered the modern hamburger. It's pronounced "Louie's" but it's never been spelled that way. --Larry, wondering if New Haven might be the home of the first pizzaburger From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM Tue Sep 25 17:52:09 2001 From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:52:09 -0400 Subject: More 9.11-Related Words Message-ID: Referring to the pending war/crusade/mobilisation/whatever, I've also seen "vaporwar," clearly a play on "vaporware" (see http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/slideware.html). Paul From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Tue Sep 25 17:41:18 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:41:18 +0100 Subject: wicked little critta Message-ID: Apparently, there's a song of Boston slang on They Might Be Giants' new album (_Mink Car_). I haven't heard the song yet, but here's what their website says about it: 14. Wicked Little Critta Incorporating half the vocabulary of our childhoods in the suburbs of Boston, this lyric may jar the memories of many New Englanders. Remixed by the Elegant Too, the track celebrates the enchanting "old school" sound of the mid-1980's inner city even as it invokes the "older school" of Eastern Massachusettes in the early 1970s. If you get the feeling you've heard this song before then this song is dedicated to you. In case you're interested... Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Sep 25 17:57:33 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:57:33 -0400 Subject: FW: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) Message-ID: Yes, Fred is right about Frisbee. There was, and is, a brand of pies in CT, such as apple, blueberry, etc. (not pizza), called Frisbie (note spelling). The company was based in Bridgeport; I don't know if the company still exists, or if the brand name is merely used by some other company. Their pie plates were long ago used as flying disks, reputedly by Yale students. This led in some fashion to the invention of the plastic disk called Frisbee. There are various sites on the web that talk about this, though I am not sure how accurate the details are. But I am confident about Frisbie pie plates in CT being the ultimate Frisbee (if you will). Other famous products with a Connecticut connection include Wiffle Ball, invented and still made in Shelton, Silly Putty, invented by a CT scientist, and the space suits used by NASA, developed and made near Hartford by Hamilton Sundstrand (formerly Hamilton Standard). Frank Abate author, "Connecticut Trivia" -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Fred Shapiro Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 1:09 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Frank Abate wrote: > Barry's details and dates below are instructive, and blow away the claim > (which I never believed anyway) that the first pizzas were made in New > Haven, a local myth in Connecticut. There is also a local myth hereabouts that the hamburger was invented at Louie's Lunch in New Haven, but evidence for the 19th-century existence of the term "hamburger," furnished by historical dictionaries and by Barry's researches, disproves that one as well. I think the local claim that "frisbee" originated in New Haven is authentic. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Sep 25 18:03:24 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:03:24 -0400 Subject: More 9.11-Related Words In-Reply-To: <3BB0BBAF.E48A7453@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I just heard Defense Secretary Rumsfeld (press conference on MSNBC, 9-25-2001) use "asymmetrical" as an adjective descriptive of targets related to the terrorist groups who are involved with the recent attacks. It seems to be intended to differentiate such targets from traditional national targets in previous wars; why these would be considered "symmetrical" I don't know. Whence and wherefore this usage I cannot say, but the Pentagon likes to come up with new stuff like this. Frank Abate From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Sep 25 18:05:53 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:05:53 -0400 Subject: Little Italy north? (1947) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/24/01 23:02, "Laurence Horn" wrote: > Getting us hungry again, Barry. I was struck by this application of > "the heart of Little Italy" to a quarter within East Harlem. There are still a couple of classic, old-school, old-New York Italian restaurants in the neighborhood, though I can't for the life of me remember them right now. ... Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Sep 25 18:13:58 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:13:58 -0400 Subject: FW: Little Italy north? (1947) Message-ID: There is a neighborhood in the Bronx along Arthur Avenue that is an Italian enclave, home to Italian markets, delis, and restaurants. It is well known in the city and is talked about in guide books as a place to visit for things Italian, which it certainly is. I had a lunch at a place there that has no written menu and no listed prices. One arrives, sits at a bench-type table next to strangers, and hears from the waiter what is available that day. They will also make classic dishes to order if they have the ingredients. The food is quite good, home-style, and inexpensive by any standard. When you're done, the waiter tells you what you owe, and you pay -- cash only. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Grant Barrett Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 2:06 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Little Italy north? (1947) On 9/24/01 23:02, "Laurence Horn" wrote: > Getting us hungry again, Barry. I was struck by this application of > "the heart of Little Italy" to a quarter within East Harlem. There are still a couple of classic, old-school, old-New York Italian restaurants in the neighborhood, though I can't for the life of me remember them right now. ... Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM Tue Sep 25 17:59:53 2001 From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Pearsons, Enid) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:59:53 -0400 Subject: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) Message-ID: I still feel nostalgic about those days when, newly ensconsed in New York, I would take the train home to Bridgeport and pass the "La Resista Corset Company." I guess they never achieved the status of a Frisbie pie or a Whiffle ball. Enid > -----Original Message----- > From: Frank Abate [mailto:abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET] > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 1:58 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: FW: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) > > > Yes, Fred is right about Frisbee. There was, and is, a brand > of pies in CT, > such as apple, blueberry, etc. (not pizza), called Frisbie > (note spelling). > The company was based in Bridgeport; I don't know if the company still > exists, or if the brand name is merely used by some other > company. Their > pie plates were long ago used as flying disks, reputedly by > Yale students. > This led in some fashion to the invention of the plastic disk called > Frisbee. > > There are various sites on the web that talk about this, > though I am not > sure how accurate the details are. But I am confident about > Frisbie pie > plates in CT being the ultimate Frisbee (if you will). > > Other famous products with a Connecticut connection include > Wiffle Ball, > invented and still made in Shelton, Silly Putty, invented by > a CT scientist, > and the space suits used by NASA, developed and made near Hartford by > Hamilton Sundstrand (formerly Hamilton Standard). > > Frank Abate > author, "Connecticut Trivia" > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Fred Shapiro > > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 1:09 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) > > > On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Frank Abate wrote: > > > Barry's details and dates below are instructive, and blow > away the claim > > (which I never believed anyway) that the first pizzas were > made in New > > Haven, a local myth in Connecticut. > > There is also a local myth hereabouts that the hamburger was > invented at > Louie's Lunch in New Haven, but evidence for the 19th-century > existence of > the term "hamburger," furnished by historical dictionaries > and by Barry's > researches, disproves that one as well. > > I think the local claim that "frisbee" originated in New Haven is > authentic. > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY > OF QUOTATIONS > and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > http://quotationdictionary.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 25 18:07:53 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:07:53 -0400 Subject: FW: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Frank Abate wrote: > Other famous products with a Connecticut connection include Wiffle Ball, > invented and still made in Shelton, Silly Putty, invented by a CT scientist, > and the space suits used by NASA, developed and made near Hartford by > Hamilton Sundstrand (formerly Hamilton Standard). Also, Gilbert's Erector sets and chemistry sets were made in Connecticut by Yale pole-vault Olympic gold-medalist A. C. Gilbert. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Sep 25 18:38:07 2001 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:38:07 -0400 Subject: FW: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tell me it's not so! I'm a wh/w distinguisher, and I always thought it was Whiffleball. dInIs >On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Frank Abate wrote: > >> Other famous products with a Connecticut connection include Wiffle Ball, >> invented and still made in Shelton, Silly Putty, invented by a CT scientist, >> and the space suits used by NASA, developed and made near Hartford by >> Hamilton Sundstrand (formerly Hamilton Standard). > >Also, Gilbert's Erector sets and chemistry sets were made in Connecticut >by Yale pole-vault Olympic gold-medalist A. C. Gilbert. > >Fred Shapiro > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, >Yale Law School forthcoming >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Sep 25 18:29:43 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:29:43 -0400 Subject: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) Message-ID: On 9/25/01 11:47, "Frank Abate" wrote: > Re "pizza pie", as a former Midwesterner, I can report that referring to a > pizza as a "pie", common in the NYC-area (and elsewhere? DARE files?) > struck me as odd when I first heard it. To me it was never called anything > but "pizza", and "pizza pie" was only known from the lyrics of the Dean > Martin song "That's Amore". One can also ask for a "slice of pie" in NYC, > which in Ohio/Michigan would mean something with fruit or cream (or > whatever) in it, not pizza, not ever. Aren't New Yorkers more likely to ask for just "a slice"? Also, I think "a slice" is usually a plain cheese slice, unless you specify. If you specify, you're probably not going to say "a slice of the white" for fear of getting both a slice and a piece of the white pizza (sometimes known as the three-cheese or four-cheese or just the ricotta). In my early days here, I was corrected on this several times by pizzamen asking me, in that mildly exasperated voice, "Whaddyou want? A slice or the three-cheese?" Finally, there has always seemed to me to be some uncertainty as to what constitutes a pizza pie. Some might argue that a plain cheese pizza is just a pizza and not a pie, while Lombardi's clam pie is a pie (and not just a pizza) because it has layers of other toppings besides sauce and cheese. Is there some connotation of depth with the word "pie"? -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Sep 25 18:43:46 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:43:46 -0400 Subject: Little Italy north? (1947) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/25/01 14:05, "Grant Barrett" wrote: > On 9/24/01 23:02, "Laurence Horn" wrote: > >> Getting us hungry again, Barry. I was struck by this application of >> "the heart of Little Italy" to a quarter within East Harlem. > > There are still a couple of classic, old-school, old-New York Italian > restaurants in the neighborhood, though I can't for the life of me remember > them right now. Rao's is one of them. http://www.nycity4u.com/mainFood&Dinning.htm "Rao's contains only 12 tables, which makes it next to impossible to score a reservation here unless you're Martin Scorsese or another one of Rao's favorite patron. Closed on weekends, Rao's only offers one seating weekdays. Addr: 445 E 114th St Subway: (6) to 116th St Tel: (212)722-6709" Also mentioned in this very interesting story about Dutch Schultz: http://www.paulsann.org/killthedutchman/chapter_XII.htm "While Coll's kidnapping proclivities made him an extremely poor risk in the lower levels of the town's society even beyond his little problem with Dutch Schultz, he was about to suffer a rash of publicity that would put him on the very bottom of all the popularity charts in every walk of the city's life. It happened on July 28, 1931, even before the full story of the DeMange caper had dribbled out through the underworld's paper curtain. On that steaming summer day, a touring car carrying five gunmen drove into crowded East 107th Street in Spanish Harlem, slowed down in front of Joey Rao's Helmar Social Club and laid down a stream of fire, presumably aiming at some lucky bum who had been marked for the spot but wasn't on it. While the mission failed, it had a far more tragic effect, for in the hail of some 60 bullets a five-year-old boy, Michael Vengalli, was killed, and four other children playing on the slum street were wounded." -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM Tue Sep 25 18:54:23 2001 From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:54:23 -0400 Subject: More 9.11-Related Words Message-ID: See my entry for asymmetric warfare: http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/asymmetricwarfare.html Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Abate" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 2:03 PM Subject: Re: More 9.11-Related Words > I just heard Defense Secretary Rumsfeld (press conference on MSNBC, > 9-25-2001) use "asymmetrical" as an adjective descriptive of targets related > to the terrorist groups who are involved with the recent attacks. It seems > to be intended to differentiate such targets from traditional national > targets in previous wars; why these would be considered "symmetrical" I > don't know. Whence and wherefore this usage I cannot say, but the Pentagon > likes to come up with new stuff like this. > > Frank Abate > From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Sep 25 18:53:22 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:53:22 -0400 Subject: FW: FW: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) Message-ID: Sorry, but it is "Wiffle". See their website: www.wiffle.com Oh, and I forgot to mention Colt revolvers (Hartford). Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Dennis R. Preston Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 2:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: FW: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) Tell me it's not so! I'm a wh/w distinguisher, and I always thought it was Whiffleball. dInIs >On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Frank Abate wrote: > >> Other famous products with a Connecticut connection include Wiffle Ball, >> invented and still made in Shelton, Silly Putty, invented by a CT scientist, >> and the space suits used by NASA, developed and made near Hartford by >> Hamilton Sundstrand (formerly Hamilton Standard). > >Also, Gilbert's Erector sets and chemistry sets were made in Connecticut >by Yale pole-vault Olympic gold-medalist A. C. Gilbert. > >Fred Shapiro > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, >Yale Law School forthcoming >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 25 18:49:44 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:49:44 -0400 Subject: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Laurence Horn wrote: > Poor New Haven. We'll be left with just our frisbees to cry into. > And maybe our (hot) dogs, based on Barry's evidence from the Yale > Record--it would be ironic if we have to give up our primacy in > burgers only to capture pride of place for the dogs. I think Barry's work has given pride of place to New Haven for the TERM "hot dog," but not for the thing itself. Under the name "frankfurter" and variants thereof, the thing is attested in other venues prior to the earliest New Haven evidence. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 19:17:53 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:17:53 EDT Subject: Hero (1947) Message-ID: I haven't been doing the NYHT in order...I'll try to find a "flying saucer" and "Caesar salad" later today. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 28 October 1947, pg. 24, col. 1: _Newspaper Food Editors Meet in New Orleans_ (...) By Clementine Paddleford (...) (Col. 4--ed.) Other high lights for this week include a visit to the French market; eating boiled shrimp at the water edge on Lake Pontchartrain, eating a poor-boy sandwich, which is something on the order of the Italian hero. From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 19:30:08 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:30:08 EDT Subject: Little Italy north? (1947) Message-ID: In a message dated 9/25/01 2:06:10 PM, gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes: << On 9/24/01 23:02, "Laurence Horn" wrote: > Getting us hungry again, Barry. I was struck by this application of > "the heart of Little Italy" to a quarter within East Harlem. There are still a couple of classic, old-school, old-New York Italian restaurants in the neighborhood, though I can't for the life of me remember them right now. >> The most famous is Rao's, on 114th and Pleasant Ave., where it is essentially impossible to get in because all of the few tables are taken up each night by "regulars." Steve Boatti From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 19:33:00 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:33:00 EDT Subject: FW: Little Italy north? (1947) Message-ID: In a message dated 9/25/01 2:15:24 PM, abatefr at earthlink.net writes: << There is a neighborhood in the Bronx along Arthur Avenue that is an Italian enclave, home to Italian markets, delis, and restaurants. It is well known in the city and is talked about in guide books as a place to visit for things Italian, which it certainly is. I had a lunch at a place there that has no written menu and no listed prices. One arrives, sits at a bench-type table next to strangers, and hears from the waiter what is available that day. They will also make classic dishes to order if they have the ingredients. The food is quite good, home-style, and inexpensive by any standard. When you're done, the waiter tells you what you owe, and you pay -- cash only. Frank Abate >> The official name of this neighborhood is Belmont. It was the home of the early doo-wop group, Dion and the Belmonts. It is also known as "Little Italy of the Bronx." Steve Boatti From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 20:25:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:25:45 EDT Subject: Turkeyburgers (1947); Supergirl; Live Dangerously Message-ID: TURKEYBURGERS/TURKEY STEAKS From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 6 November 1947, pg. 22, col. 1: _Boneless Turkey Steaks Here_ _In Choice of Light or Dark_ --------------------------- _Connecituct Couple Also Makes Turkeyburgers_ _From Drumsticks and a Canned Soup of_ _Carcass Meat--Nothing Left for Hash_ By Clementine Paddleford Turkey steaks come to town. The idea of steaking turkey was introduced in Missouri in 1937. But nothing much came of this until two years ago when Texas got busy ballyhooing the novelty. Now the idea moves east. Mr. and Mrs. Richard Carroll, turkey growers, of Cheshire, Conn., are introducing turkey steaks for New Yorkers. They offer the four-ounce boneless, frozen steaks packaged in pairs, these selling for 79 cents at United Farms, 70 University Place, and London Terrace Food Market, Twenty-fourth Street and Ninth Avenue. The Food Fare, 35 West Eighth Street, will have steaks by the week end. And that isn't all! There are turkeyburgers, too, called turkey delight. (...) -------------------------------------------------------- SUPERGIRL The title of a profile in THIS WEEK, NYHT, 5 October 1947, pg. 34, col. 2. She's Esther Williams. -------------------------------------------------------- LIVE DANGEROUSLY From the NYHT, 8 November 1947, pg. 12, col. 2: _Lord Mottistone, the Gen. Seely_ _Of Live Dangerously Fame, Dies_ LONDON, Nov. 7 (CP).--Lord Mottistone, seventy-nine, soldier, author and statesman whose motto was "live dangerously," died of bronchitis today at his London home. (At Grand Central Terminal, the Lexington Avenue side, is a Citi advertisement. "Live Richly" is the motto. "Being filthy rich is so 1999," it says. I can't believe it's still up--ed.) From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Tue Sep 25 20:36:53 2001 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:36:53 -0500 Subject: Homeland Security In-Reply-To: <51.11b810c6.28e23261@aol.com> Message-ID: This is an interesting link that purports to show the first use of "homeland security": http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/AskTheExperts/askexpert.cfm?expert=92 Erin From AAllan at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 21:29:27 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:29:27 EDT Subject: Cuban accent: help wanted Message-ID: Here's a request for help: >>I'm working on the play "Landscape of the Body" by John Guare and I was wondering if you have or could point me in the direction of any published material on the Cuban Accent. I'm coaching the show and have found many sources for Spanish and Mexican but am having difficulty finding Cuban. I'm looking for as much detailed info as possible, especially phonetic analysis.<< I'm stumped. If you have a suggestion, please address mmorgan at dramadance.ucsb.edu Michael Morgan Lecturer University of California @Santa Barbara as well as ADS-L. Thanks! - Allan Metcalf From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 21:40:02 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:40:02 EDT Subject: Cuban accent: help wanted Message-ID: Watch old I Love Lucy re-runs and imitate Ricky. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Sep 25 23:17:00 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:17:00 -0400 Subject: FW: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) Message-ID: >Also, Gilbert's Erector sets and chemistry sets were made in Connecticut >by Yale pole-vault Olympic gold-medalist A. C. Gilbert. >Fred Shapiro ~~~~~~~~~~~~ And Gilbert's Puzzles. A. Murie From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Sep 25 23:52:17 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:52:17 -0400 Subject: Cuban accent: help wanted In-Reply-To: <32.1b680eaa.28e25137@aol.com> Message-ID: The most recnet phonetically sophisticated work on Cuban Spanish has been carried out Gabriela Alafaraz, in part as a result of her LInguistics PhD dissertation at Michigan State. You can get in touch with her at alfarazg at msu.edu dInIs >Here's a request for help: > >>>I'm working on the play "Landscape of the Body" by John Guare and I was >wondering if you have or could point me in the direction of any published >material on the Cuban Accent. I'm coaching the show and have found many >sources for Spanish and Mexican but am having difficulty finding Cuban. I'm >looking for as much detailed info as possible, especially phonetic analysis.<< > >I'm stumped. If you have a suggestion, please address > >mmorgan at dramadance.ucsb.edu >Michael Morgan >Lecturer University of California @Santa Barbara > >as well as ADS-L. Thanks! - Allan Metcalf -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Sep 25 23:51:16 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:51:16 EDT Subject: Top Banana (1947); Revolving Door; PruneJuice; Bigger Bang Message-ID: TOP BANANA OED has 1953 for "second banana." I think Jesse asked about this a while ago. From THIS WEEK, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 28 December 1947, pg. 16, col. 2: _TOP BANANA..._ by Charles D. Rice _Phil Silvers,who started out in_ _burlesque, has found that the $5_ _customers are no different from the_ _35-centers--they love a "boffola"_ (...) Third Banana, for the uninitiated, is a very humble station in show business. During the depression Phil played burlesque; the average burlesque company carries three comedians who are always known as First, Second and Third Bananas. (Non-comedians are Straight Men, chorus girls are Slaves, and any female performer who is articulate enough to speak lines has the dignified title of Talking Woman. But more of this interesting industry later...) (Maybe I'll check this in my Barry Buchanon 1930s ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE ENTERTAINMENT WORLD files--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- REVOLVING DOOR OED's best "revolving door" is 1907? From George Rector's obituary in the NYHT, 27 November 1947, pg. 36, col. 3: _Revolving Door Novelty_ The place was a success from the first day. Charles Rector accumulated money, moved to larger quarters, and by 1899 was ready to sell out and invade the New York field. In that year he established what was to be the most famous Rector's, at the southeast corner of Broadway and Forty-fourth Stret. He invested $200,000 in the place, and the opening day, Sept. 23, was almost ruined by one innovation, the first revolving door ever seen in New York. An estimated 5,000 people spun around in the door to see how it worked, but they spun out again without buying, and the crowd made it difficult for real patrons to enter. But the novelty of the door palled speedily, and Rector's settled down to business. -------------------------------------------------------- BAGELS & LOX (continued) "Bagels and Lox Delivered for Breakfast in Bed" is in the NYHT, 5 December 1947, pg. 32, cols. 6-8. It's a story about Murray Schwartz of Brooklyn; a similar story was in PIC. -------------------------------------------------------- PRUNE JUICE OED has 1863, but this is useful, from the NYHT, 8 December 1947, pg. 14, col. 2: Prune juice sells here by the hundreds of gallons annually and over three-fourths of all sold in the city bears the Sunsweet label. This was the world's first prune juice, introduced in 1933. -------------------------------------------------------- BIGGER BANG ("Big Bang" continued) An editorial cartoon in the NYHT, 7 December 1947, section two, pg. 7, col. 1. "Atom" is relaxing among palm trees, and the caption reads: "This Is Okay, but I Get a Bigger Bang Out of City Life." From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Sep 26 00:16:01 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:16:01 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility Message-ID: Dear Allan and the rest of the list, My wife, Hollis, was wearing her spectacular ADS shirt at a Celtic Day festival last weekend when a phonology teacher at SUNY New Paltz engaged her in a conversation about the ADS. She had NEVER heard of it. How could this be? Don't instructors tell their students about professional societies? Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 25 13:25:34 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:25:34 +0800 Subject: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:49 PM -0400 9/25/01, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> Poor New Haven. We'll be left with just our frisbees to cry into. >> And maybe our (hot) dogs, based on Barry's evidence from the Yale >> Record--it would be ironic if we have to give up our primacy in >> burgers only to capture pride of place for the dogs. > >I think Barry's work has given pride of place to New Haven for the TERM >"hot dog," but not for the thing itself. Under the name "frankfurter" and >variants thereof, the thing is attested in other venues prior to the >earliest New Haven evidence. > Understood; I meant to claim no more. And it wasn't really "hot dog" but just "dog" in the Yale cites, IIRC. It is too bad about Pepe's and Louis' Lunch, though. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Sep 25 13:36:19 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:36:19 +0800 Subject: Little Italy north? (1947) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:43 PM -0400 9/25/01, Grant Barrett wrote: >On 9/25/01 14:05, "Grant Barrett" wrote: > >> On 9/24/01 23:02, "Laurence Horn" wrote: >> >>> Getting us hungry again, Barry. I was struck by this application of >>> "the heart of Little Italy" to a quarter within East Harlem. >> >> There are still a couple of classic, old-school, old-New York Italian >> restaurants in the neighborhood, though I can't for the life of me remember >> them right now. > >Rao's is one of them. > >http://www.nycity4u.com/mainFood&Dinning.htm > >"Rao's contains only 12 tables, which makes it next to impossible to score a >reservation here unless you're Martin Scorsese or another one of Rao's >favorite patron. Closed on weekends, Rao's only offers one seating weekdays. >Addr: 445 E 114th St >Subway: (6) to 116th St >Tel: (212)722-6709" > Rao's is definitely renowned, not only through the restaurant itself, but its widely distributed (if rather pricey) jars of sauce. But my point wasn't that there aren't well-established and robust colonies of Italian people and restaurants in various enclaves of the five boroughs (not to mention the suburbs), but that the only one referred to as "Little Italy" was the lower Manhattan one. Evidently I'm wrong in this regard and it's more like "Chinatown", where the default one is in a certain place (right next to Little Italy in fact) but there can be other Chinatowns in Queens or Brooklyn or Harlem or wherever. I'll take Steve Boatti's word that the area around Rao's is (also) Little Italy, I just had never heard that use of the term, which I'd always taken to be a geographical as well as ethno-culinary label. larry From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Sep 26 02:46:45 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:46:45 -0500 Subject: Query: 1913 "nickel" Message-ID: Would anyone have any idea of the meaning of "nickel" in the quote below? I draw a complete blank. The quote appears in the newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_, Feb. 26, 1913, p.16/2; "Baseball Talk Heard in Sundry Leagues": "Clark Griffith wants the lid lifted on sideline comedy in baseball. Ban Johnson contends that nickel should provide an outlet for surplus comedians such as those of the Washington club." That's the entire item. ---Gerald Cohen From davemarc at PANIX.COM Wed Sep 26 02:49:28 2001 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:49:28 -0400 Subject: More 9.11-Related Words Message-ID: Regarding asymmetry, perhaps the following references to "unanticipated asymetries" will be of interest. d. * Rueful Prophets Of the Unimaginable High-Level Studies Warned of Threat By Richard Leiby Washington Post Staff Writer Saturday, September 22, 2001; Page C01 In the chaos of Sept. 11, as she fled from her Pentagon office, Patti Benner Antsen's mind kept locking on two words: "Unanticipated asymmetries." Defense planners use such parlance to describe concepts of modern warfare, but according to Antsen, it comes down to something quite simple: "They would attack us in non-polite ways." We would not see the attack coming. And it would be horribly different from anything the nation had ever witnessed. Antsen, 45, was among those who predicted years ago that terrorist incidents like those of Sept. 11 would eventually happen. "It all clicked. It absolutely made perfect sense to me," recalled the civilian defense employee, who worked one corridor away from where hijackers smashed a jetliner into the Pentagon. "This was it." Unanticipated asymmetries: The words were emphasized in italic for readers of a 1997 report that Antsen helped prepare, "Transforming Defense: National Security in the 21st Century." The study by the National Defense Panel was one of several efforts to warn about a likely attack within our borders by terrorists, and the need to beef up homeland security. Fighting war symmetrically means lining up our armies against their armies, tanks against tanks. That era, the seers said, is over. Back then, people like Antsen were considered doomsayers, a chorus of bleak voices prophesying a strange war to come, against an ambiguous enemy. No one knew the hour or day, they said, but it was inevitable. It wasn't a matter of if, but when. "Americans will become increasingly vulnerable to hostile attack on our homeland," warned another major report on national security. "Americans will likely die on American soil, possibly in large numbers." In a crowded Senate hearing room yesterday, former senator Gary Hart of Colorado quoted those sentences to great effect. "That conclusion was delivered on Sept. 15, 1999, almost exactly two years to the day before our prediction came true," he said. Hart co-chaired, with former senator Warren Rudman of New Hampshire, a bipartisan commission that worked more than three years, spent $10 million and produced a three-part report called "New World Coming: American Security in the 21st Century." That commission, initiated by then-President Clinton and House Speaker Newt Gingrich in a rare bipartisan truce, also urged the creation of a homeland security agency -- a sweeping sort of interior ministry whose very name might have unsettled many Americans before Sept. 11. Back in December 1997, the National Defense Panel report said: "Coastal and border defense of the homeland is a challenge that again deserves serious thought." But the idea wasn't high on anyone's to-do list. After all, the report was looking way ahead, "to meet the challenges of 2020." As Rudman said in an interview, "We Americans have an ability to procrastinate until we get hit on the head by a 2-by-4." "There were people who would say, 'Homeland security? What are you, nuts?' " recalled Antsen. "Now the thinking has changed. Now it's an agreed-to assumption." "You've been voices in the wilderness, for the most part," Sen. Fred Thompson (R-Tenn.) said at yesterday's hearing by the Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs. "You were ahead of your time," added Sen. Joseph Lieberman (D-Conn.), the committee's chairman. Despite their prescience, soothsayers such as Antsen (who also worked on the Hart-Rudman report) are not chiding, "We told you so." They're heartened that their research provided a blueprint that could be quickly implemented. And by most accounts, senior Bush administration officials paid serious attention to the recommendations. "The president put it at the top of his agenda," said Virginia Gov. James S. Gilmore, who chaired an advisory panel established in 1999 to assess preparedness in the event of a terrorist attack involving weapons of mass destruction. "This president acted within days after his inauguration to begin to go to work on the issue and to coordinate with us." Gilmore's report included this now eerie statement: "We have been fortunate as a nation." It added, "We are impelled by the stark realization that a terrorist attack on some level inside our borders is inevitable and the United States must be ready." But none of the recent major studies on terrorist threats specifically envisioned an attack by hijackers who would turn jetliners into bombs. "We concluded that the real weapon is not the device or the material involved, but the terrorist delivery capacity and capability," Gilmore noted in his testimony at yesterday's hearing. "Unfortunately, I am afraid that this point has been borne out by the events of Sept. 11." The governor added in an interview, "It's not been the goal of our commission to try to dream up every possible conventional attack possible. We understand that they are limited only by the imagination of the evil mind, so it's purposeless, really, to try to analyze those things." Though he wasn't at the hearing yesterday, Gingrich was hailed by Rudman as the "father" of the homeland security concept. Later, the former Republican congressman spoke modestly about his contributions. "Maybe the uncle," said Gingrich, giving credit to Clinton, too. "I wouldn't say we were prescient. I would say this [Sept. 11] event is not the event we warned about, this event is the harbinger . . . ." One morning in October 1998, Antsen and another staffer were briefing Gingrich on asymmetric theories when he urged them to read screenplays and spy novels to get ideas about what terrorists were capable of doing. Get creative, he said, since our enemies will certainly be. As Antsen noted, "The most important thing about an asymmetric attack is that you cannot identify it ahead of time." It is designed to be unthinkable, unimaginable. But on Sept. 11, there were those who could comprehend what had happened. That morning, Warren Rudman was heading to his Washington law office by cab, listening to National Public Radio reports. "I thought, 'Oh God, we predicted this.' I'm so sorry were were right. I felt awful. I take no satisfaction in our prediction." ? 2001 The Washington Post Company ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Abate To: Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 2:03 PM Subject: Re: More 9.11-Related Words > I just heard Defense Secretary Rumsfeld (press conference on MSNBC, > 9-25-2001) use "asymmetrical" as an adjective descriptive of targets related > to the terrorist groups who are involved with the recent attacks. It seems > to be intended to differentiate such targets from traditional national > targets in previous wars; why these would be considered "symmetrical" I > don't know. Whence and wherefore this usage I cannot say, but the Pentagon > likes to come up with new stuff like this. > > Frank Abate > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Sep 26 06:05:33 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 02:05:33 EDT Subject: Second Banana (Barry Buchanan, 1930s) Message-ID: (PERSONAL: I've got to work tomorrow, and then it's Yom Kippur. Don't expect six postings of antedates each day for the next two days.) -------------------------------------------------------- I checked my papers for Barry Buchanan's unpublished ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE ENTERTAINMENT WORLD. What a find. It was written in the 1930s. From the BURLESQUE note cards: second banana Obsolete term for a second comic. See, first comic. second comedian Same as, second comic. second comic An obsolete term for the comedian of second importance in a show. Such a performer worked with the first comedian, or alone, as the occasion demanded. From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Wed Sep 26 06:10:42 2001 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 02:10:42 -0400 Subject: Query: 1913 "nickel" Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Cohen" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 22:46 Subject: Query: 1913 "nickel" > Would anyone have any idea of the meaning of "nickel" in the quote > below? I draw a complete blank. > The quote appears in the newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_, Feb. > 26, 1913, p.16/2; "Baseball Talk Heard in Sundry Leagues": > > "Clark Griffith wants the lid lifted on sideline comedy in baseball. > Ban Johnson contends that nickel should provide an outlet for surplus > comedians such as those of the Washington club." Given the traditional association of "nickel" with "5", and assuming that Ban Johnson was local to San Francisco, it could be a locally famous burlesque house or vaudeville theatre on Fifth street, or with an address of 5 whatever street, though this item may predate that use of nickel. Alternatively, it could be a suggestion in jest that a known impresario with name of maybe Nickel, Nickell, or Nichol give those ball playing clowns their own venue. bkd From salovex at WPO.CSO.NIU.EDU Wed Sep 26 08:31:53 2001 From: salovex at WPO.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 03:31:53 -0500 Subject: Little Italy north/pizza pie Message-ID: "Paul M. Johnson" wrote: > > Grew up in Chicago, and in the '40's and 50's it was called pizza pie, > slowly morphed into pizza and once in a great while "pie" As in "I'll > have a medium sausage pie" > Laurence Horn wrote: > > > > (I love the nostalgic value of "pizza pie"--was this largely a New > > York designation, or do others remember this as standard mid-century > > (or later) usage elsewhere?) I'll confirm Paul's report. My first pizza pies came from a Hyde Park bar in 1947-48 (academic year reference). If it matters, I think the bar was called Ken and Jock's, at 56th Street and Stony Island Avenue. Pizza pies were relatively new to the University of Chicago crowd at the time. Those pizza pies had a very soft crust, by today's standards. Sophisticated pizza pie eaters showed their superior knowledge by teaching the inexperienced to pick up a wedge and bend the outer edge in half with a finger pointed toward the center section of the pie. This provided a backbone that kept the really soft end -- from the center of the pie -- from folding down and dribbling over your chin, shirt, pants, or whatever. Just as pasta is supposed to be best if served al dente, you knew your pizza pie was at exactly the right temperature when your first slice burned the roof of your mouth. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! IN MEMORIAM: Peggy Salovesh 25 January 1932 -- 3 March 2001 From douglas at NB.NET Wed Sep 26 11:49:10 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:49:10 -0400 Subject: Query: 1913 "nickel" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My naive speculation is that "nickel" is short for "nickel theater" or so. Mathews' "Dictionary of Americanisms" shows several citations for "nickel theater", "nickel show", "nickelodeon" from 1908-1914. -- Doug Wilson From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Wed Sep 26 13:45:08 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:45:08 -0400 Subject: Little Italy north/pizza pie Message-ID: "Paul M. Johnson" writes: >>>>> Grew up in Chicago, and in the '40's and 50's it was called pizza pie, slowly morphed into pizza and once in a great while "pie" As in "I'll =========================== have a medium sausage pie" <<<<< Where I live in Framingham, Mass., a western suburb of Boston, there's a shop called "Ty's Pies". To my disappointment, it is a pizzeria, not a pie bakery. (I like pizza, but I was hoping for dessert-type pies.) -- Mark A. Mandel From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Wed Sep 26 14:02:00 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:02:00 -0400 Subject: Hot dog Message-ID: >From my notes on my experiences at (and to and from) this year's World Science Fiction Convention, which occurred over Labor Day weekend and adjoining weekdays: >>>>> WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 29 1:57pm Stop on the Garden State Parkway just into New Jersey for lunch. I notice that one of the food counters is a Cetagandan joint: "Jody Maroni's Sausage Kingdom, Home of the Haut Dog". <<<<< The point of mentioning it here is the (imho bad) pun "Haut Dog". (The point of putting it into my con report is based on Lois McMaster Bujold's series of sf novels about Miles Vorkosigan, in which... never mind.) -- Mark Mandel From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Sep 26 14:29:36 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:29:36 -0500 Subject: "nickel"--Douglas Wilson's speculation Message-ID: Douglas Wilson's speculation seems to be very much on the right track, viz. that "nickel" in the 1913 quote may be short for "nickel theater." I would just clarify it a bit: "nickel" seems to be used below as a synonym for "vaudeville-type comedy" (the vaudeville theaters may very well have charged an entrance fee of a nickel). So in the quote below, Ban Johnson (president of the American League) is saying that sideline comedy (= "nickel") would be very appropriate for the Washington team, whose playing was supposedly so bad it was a joke. As for Clark Griffith, he was either the manager or owner of the Washington team (I don't have the Baseball Encyclopedia handy). Thanx for the assist. ---Gerald Cohen >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 >From: "Douglas G. Wilson" >Subject: Re: Query: 1913 "nickel" >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >My naive speculation is that "nickel" is short for "nickel theater" or so. >Mathews' "Dictionary of Americanisms" shows several citations for "nickel >theater", "nickel show", "nickelodeon" from 1908-1914. > >-- Doug Wilson >> >> Would anyone have any idea of the meaning of "nickel" in the quote >>below? I draw a complete blank. >> The quote appears in the newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_, Feb. >>26, 1913, p.16/2; "Baseball Talk Heard in Sundry Leagues": >> >>"Clark Griffith wants the lid lifted on sideline comedy in baseball. >>Ban Johnson contends that nickel should provide an outlet for surplus >>comedians such as those of the Washington club." >> >>That's the entire item. >>---Gerald Cohen From Lesa.Dill at WKU.EDU Wed Sep 26 13:18:05 2001 From: Lesa.Dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:18:05 -0500 Subject: ADS visibility Message-ID: I certainly do. But then half of my students can't even remember my name by the end of the semester--which makes remembering ADS almost a moot point. Lesa Dill lesa.dill at wku.edu From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Sep 26 15:29:23 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:29:23 EDT Subject: Subject: Re: Goopher Feathers & a Big Bang (1949) Message-ID: I can't tell if this message made it to the ADS-L list, so I'm resubmitting. Please do not hesitate to use the delete key. In a message dated 09/23/2001 9:24:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > I'll end with a bang. Fred Hoyle, who died recently, coined his "Big Bang" > theory in 1950. The "Big Bang" theory was proposed by the Abbe/ George Lemai^tre (that's an acute accent and a circumflex respectively) in 1933. Fred Hoyle was for many years one of the leading opponents of the Big Bang theory. He and Herman Bondi and Thomas Gold of Cambridge University proposed the rival "Steady State" theory in 1948. I have no information on when the name "Big Bang" was applied to Lemai^tre's theory. You may be interested to know that the PC Police (when did that phrase originate?) are after "Big Bang", claiming it is a sexist name. Another interesting story about the Big Bang Theory concerns a variation of it proposed in a paper by George Gamow, Ralph A. Alpher, and Hans Bethe. I have no idea whether this story be true, but it is claimed that Bethe had nothing to do with the paper---his name was attached to it by Gamow with malice aforethought, so that it could be called the "Alpher-Bethe-Gamow" theory. According to my father, the theory went on the rocks and Bethe announced that he was going to change his name to Zacharias. James A. Landau Systems Engineer FAA Technical Center (ACT-350/BCI) Atlantic City Airport NJ 08405 USA From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Sep 26 16:33:05 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:33:05 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/25/01 20:16, "Barnhart" wrote: > Dear Allan and the rest of the list, > > My wife, Hollis, was wearing her spectacular ADS shirt at a Celtic Day > festival last weekend when a phonology teacher at SUNY New Paltz > engaged her in a conversation about the ADS. She had NEVER heard of > it. How could this be? Don't instructors tell their students about > professional societies? As a student I'll respond by saying that I recently gave a short oral presentation on a French conversation class about the curious pleonasm of "loup-garou" and much of the class hadn't heard of the OED and wasn't quite sure what etymology was. Still more were surprised to find that there is actually a difference between dictionaries; I suppose they had been wandering their whole short lives why there were so many dictionaries republishing identical material. Some had read "The Madman and the Professor," which I guess is not a bad way to get people interested in the whole realm of words, dictionaries and language in general. I suspect we need our own madman to write about (now, be nice...). -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Sep 26 16:36:48 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:36:48 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (Aaargh. Enter key in wrong place.) > My wife, Hollis, was wearing her spectacular ADS shirt at a Celtic Day > festival last weekend when a phonology teacher at SUNY New Paltz > engaged her in a conversation about the ADS. She had NEVER heard of > it. How could this be? Don't instructors tell their students about > professional societies? As a student I'll respond by saying that I recently gave a short oral presentation in a French conversation class about the curious pleonasm of "loup-garou" and much of the class hadn't heard of the OED and wasn't quite sure what etymology was. Still more were surprised to find that there is actually a difference between dictionaries; I suppose they had been wondering their whole short lives why there were so many dictionaries republishing identical material. Some had read "The Madman and the Professor," which I guess is not a bad way to get people interested in the whole realm of words, dictionaries and language in general. I suspect we need our own madman to write about (now, be nice...). -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From pivsin at CMJSOLUTIONS.COM Wed Sep 26 16:21:54 2001 From: pivsin at CMJSOLUTIONS.COM (Paul Ivsin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:21:54 -0500 Subject: "nickel"--Douglas Wilson's speculation Message-ID: Some confirmation and a minor correction: Clark Griffith was both manager and owner of the Washington Senators. According to his profile on the Baseball Online Library, he did have a connection to vaudeville dating back to his years as a player in 1893: ... When the [Oakland] Oaks' owners, in mid-season, did not come up with back pay owed the players, Griffith organized his teammates to strike. Needing employment, several of them, including Griffith, audaciously found work as itinerant vaudevillians in San Francisco's Barbary Coast district. When the owners found enough money, the greasepaint was abandoned and the season was completed. ... http://cbs.sportsline.com/u/baseball/bol/ballplayers/G/Griffith_Clark.html However, it should be noted that the 1913 Senators (led by Walter Johnson) were far from bad. They finished second in the American League with a 90-64 record. Griffith would eventually sign a one-legged player to the Senators, so his theatrical flair appears to have been deeply ingrained. Paul ... Paul Ivsin paul at ivsin.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Cohen" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 9:29 AM Subject: "nickel"--Douglas Wilson's speculation > Douglas Wilson's speculation seems to be very much on the right > track, viz. that "nickel" in the 1913 quote may be short for "nickel > theater." I would just clarify it a bit: "nickel" seems to be used > below as a synonym for "vaudeville-type comedy" (the vaudeville > theaters may very well have charged an entrance fee of a nickel). > > So in the quote below, Ban Johnson (president of the American > League) is saying that sideline comedy (= "nickel") would be very > appropriate for the Washington team, whose playing was supposedly so > bad it was a joke. As for Clark Griffith, he was either the manager > or owner of the Washington team (I don't have the Baseball > Encyclopedia handy). > > Thanx for the assist. > > ---Gerald Cohen > > > >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 > >From: "Douglas G. Wilson" > >Subject: Re: Query: 1913 "nickel" > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > >My naive speculation is that "nickel" is short for "nickel theater" or so. > >Mathews' "Dictionary of Americanisms" shows several citations for "nickel > >theater", "nickel show", "nickelodeon" from 1908-1914. > > > >-- Doug Wilson > > >> > >> Would anyone have any idea of the meaning of "nickel" in the quote > >>below? I draw a complete blank. > >> The quote appears in the newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_, Feb. > >>26, 1913, p.16/2; "Baseball Talk Heard in Sundry Leagues": > >> > >>"Clark Griffith wants the lid lifted on sideline comedy in baseball. > >>Ban Johnson contends that nickel should provide an outlet for surplus > >>comedians such as those of the Washington club." > >> > >>That's the entire item. > >>---Gerald Cohen > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Sep 26 05:02:59 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 13:02:59 +0800 Subject: ADS visibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:36 PM -0400 9/26/01, Grant Barrett wrote: >(Aaargh. Enter key in wrong place.) > >> My wife, Hollis, was wearing her spectacular ADS shirt at a Celtic Day >> festival last weekend when a phonology teacher at SUNY New Paltz >> engaged her in a conversation about the ADS. She had NEVER heard of >> it. How could this be? Don't instructors tell their students about >> professional societies? > >As a student I'll respond by saying that I recently gave a short oral >presentation in a French conversation class about the curious pleonasm of >"loup-garou" and much of the class hadn't heard of the OED and wasn't quite >sure what etymology was. Still more were surprised to find that there is >actually a difference between dictionaries; I suppose they had been >wondering their whole short lives why there were so many dictionaries >republishing identical material. > One problem may be the locution "the dictionary", which suggests there is really only one, like "the Bible" (maybe with slightly different wording, as in the latter case, but essentially the same, chapter and verse). It then turns into "the Dictionary". Of course, the same problem arises with "the Encyclopedia", but that's not OUR concern. larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Sep 26 17:18:11 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 13:18:11 EDT Subject: FW: Calzone, Sausage Pizza (1947) Message-ID: [It was this message, not the one about the Big Bang and Fred Hoyle, that went AWOL. My apologies. I hope nobody hurt a finger hitting the DELETE key.] In a message dated 09/25/2001 2:55:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET writes: > Oh, and I forgot to mention Colt revolvers (Hartford). Samuel Colt had the inspiration for his revolver (not the first one ever invented, but the first practical one) while on a sea voyage, and after getting a patent in 1836 he started manufacturing revolvers not in Connecticut but in Paterson, New Jersey. The model he produced is known as the "Paterson Colt" and is a valued collector's item. Colt went broke in 1842. In 1846 or 1847 he and Samuel Walker of the Texas Rangers came up with a new model, known as the "Walker Colt". Many years ago I saw one in a pawnshop, with a price tag of $1500. I haven't found out when Colt set up his factory in Hartford. You forgot to mention "The Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court", who was originally a foreman in Colt's Hartford plant. Another famous firearm maker in Connecticut is Winchester. Oliver Winchester, who at one time was Lieutenant Governor of Connecticut, hired a man named B. Tyler Henry to redesign a firearm in which he had a financial interest. The result was the Henry Rifle, a famous Civil War weapon (though not to be confused with the Spencer, "the gun the Yankees loaded on Sunday and fired all week."). In 1866 a new version of the Henry was sold under the Winchester name. Incidentally, after 1873 Colt sold a .44 caliber revolver (identical except in caliber to the Colt .45 "Peacemaker") which used the same ".44-40" ammunition as the Model 1873 Winchester carbine. And speaking of New Haven, has anyone found citational evidence whether Lender's Bagels of New Haven antedated the OED citations? - Jim Landau (from South Jersey. Paterson is in North Joisey) P.S. sandwiched in my e-inbox between the e-mails on "Whiffle Ball" versus "Wiffle Ball" was a piece of spam on "Wisk" cleaner. From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Wed Sep 26 20:21:47 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:21:47 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 01:02 PM 9/26/01 +0800, you wrote: >At 12:36 PM -0400 9/26/01, Grant Barrett wrote: >>(Aaargh. Enter key in wrong place.) >> >>> My wife, Hollis, was wearing her spectacular ADS shirt at a Celtic Day >>> festival last weekend when a phonology teacher at SUNY New Paltz >>> engaged her in a conversation about the ADS. She had NEVER heard of >>> it. How could this be? Don't instructors tell their students about >>> professional societies? >> >>As a student I'll respond by saying that I recently gave a short oral >>presentation in a French conversation class about the curious pleonasm of >>"loup-garou" and much of the class hadn't heard of the OED and wasn't quite >>sure what etymology was. Still more were surprised to find that there is >>actually a difference between dictionaries; I suppose they had been >>wondering their whole short lives why there were so many dictionaries >>republishing identical material. >One problem may be the locution "the dictionary", which suggests >there is really only one, like "the Bible" (maybe with slightly >different wording, as in the latter case, but essentially the same, >chapter and verse). It then turns into "the Dictionary". Of course, >the same problem arises with "the Encyclopedia", but that's not OUR >concern. > >larry I have an undergrad this quarter who insists that "Noah Webster's Dictionary" is the bible of pronunciation and usage. Ugh! (He doesn't know the difference between Noah's and the modern Websters, of course.) _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Sep 26 21:09:39 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:09:39 EDT Subject: ADS visibility Message-ID: In a message dated 09/26/2001 4:26:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU writes: > I have an undergrad this quarter who insists that "Noah Webster's > Dictionary" is the bible of pronunciation and usage. Ugh! (He doesn't > know the difference between Noah's and the modern Websters, of course.) Maybe it will help if you tell him that the present "Webster's" was written by Noah's daughter Merriam. - Jim Landau From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Sep 26 21:26:37 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:26:37 EDT Subject: ADS visibility & madman Message-ID: Grant Barrett writes: << I suspect we need our own madman to write about >> We do have one. His name is Edward H. Rulloff. Dick Bailey has written a great book about him, which, foolishly, major publishers haven't cared to look at. You can see stuff about him at http://www-personal.umich.edu/~rwbailey/Rulloff.html - Allan Metcalf From gbarrett at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Sep 26 21:41:33 2001 From: gbarrett at COLUMBIA.EDU (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:41:33 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility & madman In-Reply-To: <163.1815e33.28e3a20d@aol.com> Message-ID: On 9/26/01 17:26, "AAllan at AOL.COM" wrote: > Grant Barrett writes: > > << I suspect we need our own madman to write about >> > > We do have one. His name is Edward H. Rulloff. Dick Bailey has written a > great book about him, which, foolishly, major publishers haven't cared to > look at. You can see stuff about him at > > http://www-personal.umich.edu/~rwbailey/Rulloff.html Also about the trial and legal issues: http://chnm.gmu.edu/aq/photos/frames/essay03.htm -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Sep 26 22:06:31 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:06:31 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility & madman Message-ID: Chicking the source recommended by A Allen, I learn that Ruloff "had been a botanical physician, jackleg lawyer, schoolmaster, itinerant lecturer, phrenologist, photographer, mechanical inventor and, in his final incarnation, philologist?all borderline professions that had traditionally served as an avenue to public respectability for gifted, ambitious, or unprincipled men of little means." Can we all form up in three lines? The gifted over there, the ambitious along the wall, and the unprincipled right here. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Grant Barrett Date: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 5:41 pm Subject: Re: ADS visibility & madman > On 9/26/01 17:26, "AAllan at AOL.COM" wrote: > > > Grant Barrett writes: > > > > << I suspect we need our own madman to write about >> > > > > We do have one. His name is Edward H. Rulloff. Dick Bailey has > written a > > great book about him, which, foolishly, major publishers haven't > cared to > > look at. You can see stuff about him at > > > > http://www-personal.umich.edu/~rwbailey/Rulloff.html > > Also about the trial and legal issues: > > http://chnm.gmu.ed > > > > > -- > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > http://www.worldnewyork.org/ > New York Loves You Back > From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Wed Sep 26 23:14:54 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:14:54 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility & madman Message-ID: What about those of us who fit in more than one line? John Baker, Jackleg Lawyer and Wannabe Philologist > -----Original Message----- > From: George Thompson [SMTP:george.thompson at NYU.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:07 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: ADS visibility & madman > > Chicking the source recommended by A Allen, I learn that Ruloff > "had been a botanical physician, jackleg lawyer, schoolmaster, > itinerant lecturer, phrenologist, photographer, mechanical inventor > and, in his final incarnation, philologist-all borderline professions > that had traditionally served as an avenue to public respectability for > gifted, ambitious, or unprincipled men of little means." > > Can we all form up in three lines? The gifted over there, the > ambitious along the wall, and the unprincipled right here. > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African > Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > From Hixmaddog at AOL.COM Wed Sep 26 23:17:17 2001 From: Hixmaddog at AOL.COM (Steve Hicks) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:17:17 EDT Subject: ADS visibility & madman Message-ID: >>I have an undergrad this quarter who insists that "Noah Webster's >>Dictionary" is the bible of pronunciation and usage. Ugh! (He doesn't >>know the difference between Noah's and the modern Websters, of course.) Probably not even marginally apropos to "ADS visibility and madman:" Sockless Jerry Simpson, Kansas Congressman in the late 19th Century, in an impassioned tribute to the great Daniel Webster, asked, "And who among us can forget his monumental Dictionary ?" When a colleague whispered to him, "NOAH wrote the dictionary." Simpson hissed sotto voce, "Noah built the ark, you idiot." Steve Hicks Hicks Information -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Hixmaddog at AOL.COM Wed Sep 26 23:35:16 2001 From: Hixmaddog at AOL.COM (Steve Hicks) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:35:16 EDT Subject: Jackleg Message-ID: Anyone have a quick take on the derivation of "jackleg"...or the variant I sometimes hear, "jakeleg" ? And any connection to the "jake brakes" posted as prohibited in almost every town in western Kansas on this summer's trip ? Steve Hicks Hicks Information -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Sep 26 23:37:41 2001 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:37:41 -0600 Subject: ADS visibility In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010926162021.03be0400@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: A surprising number of people think old Noah's still alive and that he wrote all the dictionaries (well, maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration . . .) Then Noah also gets mixed up in people's minds with Daniel. But how can we expect people to know about dictionaries when virtually nothing is taught about them in most schools. I wonder if this student of Beverly's owns (or has seen) the reprint of Webster's 1828 dictionary that is published by a religious organization as the only true dictionary or something like that, because of Webster's definitions of terms like 'morality' and 'democracy', etc. I picked up a brochure somewhere (can't find it now). It actually seems to be a rather good deal for anyone looking for this dictionary since, as I understand it, it is simply a straight reprint that costs under $30 (I think!) Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 1533 Early Drive Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 3K1 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 On Wednesday, September 26, 2001 2:22 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > > I have an undergrad this quarter who insists that "Noah Webster's > Dictionary" is the bible of pronunciation and usage. Ugh! (He doesn't > know the difference between Noah's and the modern Websters, of course.) > > _____________________________________________ > Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics > Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 > Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 > http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Sep 26 23:56:59 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:56:59 -0700 Subject: ADS visibility & madman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm devastated by this exchange, which is debunking all of those eternal verities that I've relied on all these years. Next thing you know, somebody will be claiming that Jesus didn't write the Bible! (MUST I add ":)" ?) **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Thu Sep 27 00:24:01 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:24:01 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility In-Reply-To: <000701c146e4$3c2aa4c0$11820a0a@vneufeldt.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: I'm sure my student has no idea when Noah lived. But thanks for the reference, Vicki; I'll look it up! (And to whoever mentioned "Noah's daughter Merriam"--love it!) At 05:37 PM 9/26/01 -0600, you wrote: >A surprising number of people think old Noah's still alive and that he wrote >all the dictionaries (well, maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration . . .) >Then Noah also gets mixed up in people's minds with Daniel. > >But how can we expect people to know about dictionaries when virtually >nothing is taught about them in most schools. > >I wonder if this student of Beverly's owns (or has seen) the reprint of >Webster's 1828 dictionary that is published by a religious organization as >the only true dictionary or something like that, because of Webster's >definitions of terms like 'morality' and 'democracy', etc. I picked up a >brochure somewhere (can't find it now). It actually seems to be a rather >good deal for anyone looking for this dictionary since, as I understand it, >it is simply a straight reprint that costs under $30 (I think!) > >Victoria > >Victoria Neufeldt >1533 Early Drive >Saskatoon, Sask. >S7H 3K1 >Canada >Tel: 306-955-8910 > > >On Wednesday, September 26, 2001 2:22 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > > > > I have an undergrad this quarter who insists that "Noah Webster's > > Dictionary" is the bible of pronunciation and usage. Ugh! (He doesn't > > know the difference between Noah's and the modern Websters, of course.) > > > > _____________________________________________ > > Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics > > Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 > > Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 > > http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm > > _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Thu Sep 27 00:26:40 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:26:40 -0400 Subject: Jackleg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I saw signs about not putting on "jake brakes" as I approached the Indiana Dunes lakeshore this summer, but I can't recall the meaning: Are they the puff-noisy screech brakes big trucks use? At 07:35 PM 9/26/01 -0400, you wrote: >Anyone have a quick take on the derivation >of "jackleg"...or the variant I sometimes hear, >"jakeleg" ? > >And any connection to the "jake brakes" >posted as prohibited in almost every town in >western Kansas on this summer's trip ? > > > Steve Hicks > Hicks Information _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From pds at VISI.COM Thu Sep 27 04:37:04 2001 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 23:37:04 -0500 Subject: More 9.11-Related Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Box cutter Although it was not hard to guess what this is, the term was new to me. I know the implement as a "utility knife". Is this regional, or am I just overly sheltered? Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Thu Sep 27 07:40:26 2001 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 03:40:26 -0400 Subject: More 9.11-Related Words Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Kysilko" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 00:37 Subject: Re: More 9.11-Related Words > Box cutter > > Although it was not hard to guess what this is, the term was new to me. I > know the implement as a "utility knife". Is this regional, or am I just > overly sheltered? AKA "razor knife". "Box cutter" has been current in the NYC are for probably about seven years, if not a little more, due to its popularity as weapon among teenagers and school students. A Lexis-Nexis search should get you plenty of hits in the Daily News and NY Post. As far as outside NYC goes, I couldn't say. bkd From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Thu Sep 27 09:38:48 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:38:48 +0100 Subject: ADS visibility In-Reply-To: <000701c146e4$3c2aa4c0$11820a0a@vneufeldt.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: --On Wednesday, September 26, 2001 5:37 pm -0600 Victoria Neufeldt wrote: > But how can we expect people to know about dictionaries when virtually > nothing is taught about them in most schools. But then the question becomes--whose responsibility is it to change this? When I organized a session on "Dictionaries and the Classroom" for MLA, all but one of the dozen or so abstracts received (advertised for through DSNA, ADS, and MLA) were about dictionaries in the college (or grad school) classroom. Now, I know I would've received a different set of abstracts if I had been organizing at the NCTE, but would those abstracts have been lexicographically informed? The DSNA formed a taskforce on dictionaries and the classroom that went no where. So...what are we doing about the state of dictionary (and language and dialect) teaching in the grade school (or even high school) classroom? Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Thu Sep 27 09:42:10 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:42:10 +0100 Subject: More 9.11-Related Words In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010926233704.00a22ea0@pop.visi.com> Message-ID: --On Wednesday, September 26, 2001 11:37 pm -0500 Tom Kysilko wrote: > Box cutter > > Although it was not hard to guess what this is, the term was new to me. I > know the implement as a "utility knife". Is this regional, or am I just > overly sheltered? In the UK media, especially at the beginning when reports were just coming in, they'd say "box cutters--by which the Americans presumably mean 'Stanley knives'" or "box cutters--which we think might be something like Stanley knives". Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Sep 27 09:43:19 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:43:19 +0100 Subject: Jackleg Message-ID: Jackleg: seems to to find its ultimate source in the UK-wide 18C/19C dialect _jack-a-legs_, a large, single-bladed clasp knife, usu. with a broad, square blade. Thence seen as the type of knife a slapdash or unskilled caprenter might use rather than more sophisticated tools and appears in US in mid-19C as the simple 'unskilled', with alternates _jakeleg_ and _jack-legged_. Noun form deals with various incompetent, unskilled or unprincipled professionals or workers, esp. the jackleg preacher (although he can be simply an itinerant). _Jake brakes_ are beyond me, but there might, given _jakeleg_ be a link. Jonathon Green From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 27 10:52:16 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:52:16 -0400 Subject: FW: More 9.11-Related Words Message-ID: The difference between a box cutter and a utility knife is that the first is thin and very simple, just a thin metal sleeve with a slot for a razor blade held by a very thin metal frame. The frame slides within the sleeve, and the blade is exposed at one end. It was made for people who open boxes as part of their job, as stockers at grocery stores. It is very small and light, and so easily concealable -- the reason it became popular with street hoods, and now hijackers. A utility knife is a much larger and sturdier thing, with a true handle that fits well in the hand. It too has a sliding frame within, and typically uses one-sided razor blades, but with stouter blades than do box cutters. It is used in construction, for cutting carpet, wallboard, etc. They are also called Stanley knives, certainly in the UK, and in parts of the US, as Stanley Tools sold many of them with their name on the side. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Bruce Dykes Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 3:40 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: More 9.11-Related Words ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Kysilko" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 00:37 Subject: Re: More 9.11-Related Words > Box cutter > > Although it was not hard to guess what this is, the term was new to me. I > know the implement as a "utility knife". Is this regional, or am I just > overly sheltered? AKA "razor knife". "Box cutter" has been current in the NYC are for probably about seven years, if not a little more, due to its popularity as weapon among teenagers and school students. A Lexis-Nexis search should get you plenty of hits in the Daily News and NY Post. As far as outside NYC goes, I couldn't say. bkd From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 27 11:12:04 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:12:04 -0400 Subject: FW: ADS visibility Message-ID: Lynne M makes a good point. One problem is that in the noncollege classroom, one has to get the attention of kids who likely are more used to looking things up online, not in books. This is merely anecdotal, but I've been told by grade school teachers that they cannot easily get their kids to use the book dictionaries that are already in the classrooms. The younger set has become enamored of online reference tools, and changing their habits will not be easy. The idea of dictionary training in grade schools is worth pursuing. One needs to go to the school administrators, I think, and see what the reaction is. Then be ready to teach about online tools, and introduce the book along the way. Fortunately, there are several excellent American dictionaries online and on CD, so the products are out there. I tend to look things up a lot in my work, and have been at it for a while, going back to high school. I am pretty fast it at by now, but I still believe that 8 times out of 10, one can find a specific alphabetic entry faster in a book than in an electronic dictionary, even if it is open in the background on one's computer. And of course it is much easier to read from a page than a screen, thanks to the hugely better contrast and resolution of printed pages. The advantage of the electronic products comes more in the ability to search across the entire text using Boolean tools. But for the majority of instances for which most "laypeople" use dictionaries -- to check spelling, meaning, and word division -- the book is better, being faster, much cheaper, more readily accessible, and requiring no electricity. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Lynne Murphy Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 5:39 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: ADS visibility --On Wednesday, September 26, 2001 5:37 pm -0600 Victoria Neufeldt wrote: > But how can we expect people to know about dictionaries when virtually > nothing is taught about them in most schools. But then the question becomes--whose responsibility is it to change this? When I organized a session on "Dictionaries and the Classroom" for MLA, all but one of the dozen or so abstracts received (advertised for through DSNA, ADS, and MLA) were about dictionaries in the college (or grad school) classroom. Now, I know I would've received a different set of abstracts if I had been organizing at the NCTE, but would those abstracts have been lexicographically informed? The DSNA formed a taskforce on dictionaries and the classroom that went no where. So...what are we doing about the state of dictionary (and language and dialect) teaching in the grade school (or even high school) classroom? Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Sep 27 11:07:06 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:07:06 -0400 Subject: Dictionaries (was Re: ADS visibility) In-Reply-To: <2533918.3210575928@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Lynne Murphy wrote: >and the classroom that went no where. So...what are we doing about the >state of dictionary (and language and dialect) teaching in the grade school >(or even high school) classroom? I cannot answer that question, but I can tell you what I do about it at u. level. For many, many years, I have routinely included a unit on dictionaries in every upper-level lx course I teach. My usual tack is to ask a humanities ref librarian ( who is familiar with social science databases, etc.) to do a hands-on presentation in the library on dictionaries, databases, and lx atlases. Then I either give a library assignment that includes dictionary questions or include one question on dictionaries on the take-home midterm exam. Almost everything my students learn is news to them. Bethany From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Sep 27 11:04:04 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:04:04 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility focus Message-ID: This thread is very interesting. However, we seem to have drifted some distance from the original thought. How should each of us raise the visibility of ADS? Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Sep 27 11:14:02 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:14:02 -0400 Subject: Greengrocer's apostrophe Message-ID: >From an internet ad: Keeps American's Online Bethany From hopkins at UTA.FI Thu Sep 27 11:26:25 2001 From: hopkins at UTA.FI (John D. Hopkins) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:26:25 +0300 Subject: Was the box-cutter used by the terrorists the same as Frank Abate described? Message-ID: Dear All, My understanding (from working in the family grocery store in central Missouri decades back) of a box cutter was exactly as Frank Abate just described it -- I still have one of the small razor-blade models at home, about 3.5 inches long. But is this what the terrorists used on 11 September? Have there been any pictures or detailed descriptions of the terrorist box-cutters in the U.S. media? My students had been wondering how such a small device could have been so intimidating (the razor blade edge nonwithstanding). I recently used the Google Images Searcher to see what came up with "box cutter", and the first image is of a "Szabo box-cutter with sheath" via the www.bladeart.com/artists/laci_szabo (etc) link. This device looks deadly indeed, a cross between brass knuckles and a combat knife. The description (despite it being called a box-cutter) mainly refers to its use in fighting, although for the other models there are crate-opening references. A trained terrorist with this thing in hand would be formidable indeed. But back to my question. Has there been an exact description of what type of box-cutter was actually used? The only reference I've seen is that it was of Swiss manufacture, purchased in Switzerland. To me, that would seem to rule out the small, simple razor-blade box cutter that I have used and Frank Abate described. JOHN ___________________________________________________ John D. Hopkins University of Tampere, Finland From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Thu Sep 27 11:58:54 2001 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:58:54 -0400 Subject: Was the box-cutter used by the terrorists the same as Frank Abate described? Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John D. Hopkins" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 07:26 Subject: Was the box-cutter used by the terrorists the same as Frank Abate described? > But back to my question. Has there been an exact description of what type > of box-cutter was actually used? The only reference I've seen is that it > was of Swiss manufacture, purchased in Switzerland. To me, that would > seem to rule out the small, simple razor-blade box cutter that I have used > and Frank Abate described. Sadly, the only flight likely to give up its history in any sort of detail is flight 93, and then only if we're lucky. The primary reports of box cutters and knives came from cell phone calls from passengers on one or more of the flights, so we're also relying on what *they* interpret as a box cutter in the middle of what must surely have been a panicked environment. bkd From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Thu Sep 27 12:20:14 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:20:14 +0100 Subject: school classrooms (was visibility) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bethany tells what she does in her classroom, which is helpful. I think most of us do similar things. The problem is, however, that most people (even most people who go through higher education) will not go through one of our classes and get this info. I think something more reaching is needed, and I'll concede that this isn't the best forum for it. But no one seems to know what the best forum is. For one thing, we need to reach teachers, but at least as importantly, we need to reach the people who are teaching future teachers. I know a lot of us do, as linguistics courses are included in many education degrees, but they're not integrated enough into the education program--we don't show teachers _how_ to use dictionaries in the classroom. Erin McKean did a study on what teachers feel they do/need for dictionary skills teaching, which is published in last year's _Dictionaries_. The problem, of course, is that teachers are already expected to do way too much in their limited time, so dictionary skills often fall through the cracks. --On Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:12 am -0400 Frank Abate wrote: > Lynne M makes a good point. One problem is that in the noncollege > classroom, one has to get the attention of kids who likely are more used > to looking things up online, not in books. This is merely anecdotal, but > I've been told by grade school teachers that they cannot easily get their > kids to use the book dictionaries that are already in the classrooms. > The younger set has become enamored of online reference tools, and > changing their habits will not be easy. I'm not sure that we need to change their habits. Yes, it's good to learn how to use books, but if they're going to use on-line dictionaries, then they still need dictionary skills. (This seems to go along with the assumption I saw in a lot of Erin's responses from teachers--assuming that dictionary skills = alphabetization and use of guide words.) My impression from students coming into university is that they're given very little training on critical use of on-line sources. The issue of "the dictionary" versus dictionaries is as relevant for on-line use as for printed ones. Skills/knowledge relating to about you should look for in a dictionary, how many grains of salt you should allow, how to use part-of-speech info or examples or etymologies, etc. are as relevant to on-line dictionaries as to print dictionaries. Perhaps the way to get more time in the classroom is to frame dictionary skills as information skills rather than as book skills. Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 27 12:24:16 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:24:16 -0400 Subject: box cutter illustrated Message-ID: All, The following web page, from a company that sells box cutters, has illustrations. The first, third, and last items depicted are box cutters. Please note that the first and third pictures show a protective sleeve covering the cutting edge of the blade. Also, the illustrations, from the side, do not show the thinness of the items. The same page has a link to "utility knives": http://www.themodernspecialtiescompany.com/cutters/cutters.html Addressing other recent postings on this, first as to how a box cutter could cause alarm, I think it would to those who know of its use as a weapon. And whoever used the term, whether one of the victims on the flights or someone gathering evidence after the fact, I doubt they would have used the term "box cutter" in reference to anything else, as it is quite distinctive in appearance, and is certainly well known as a weapon to people in law enforcement. Frank Abate From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Thu Sep 27 13:23:52 2001 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:23:52 -0500 Subject: Jake brakes what, not where Message-ID: a system of using engine compression as a method of breaking heavy duty trucks. The noise is in effect the unmuffled engine. Where the name came from is unknown to me. From mnewman at QC.EDU Thu Sep 27 13:29:16 2001 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:29:16 -0400 Subject: FW: ADS visibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here are six several interrelated reasons for general absence of linguistic issues in k-12 schools in the US including : 1. Most language arts curricula emphasize literary analysis and basic literacy skills, such as reading and writing. 2. Most state tests by which student progress is measured reflect these and only these goals. For example the neither the NYS English Language Arts (ELA) regents exam nor the 4th and 8th grade tests leading up to it have a single question on metalinguistic knowledge. It is possible to get 100% on these tests and not know what a noun is or what a definition is, for that matter. This is a "new wave" or progressive test which assumes a genre-based definition of literacy, meaning it's not all decontextualized skills. 3. It is generally believed (rightly or wrongly) that declarative knowledge of language, including but not limited to dictionary skills and the types of issues addressed by ADS, is irrelevant to development of writing and reading skills. 4. There is no time in the language arts class for anything extra that cannot be justified on the basis of helping kids pass the tests, which is on reason point 3 is important. When Walt Wolfram developed his dialect diversity program in North Carolina, he cleverly put it in Social Studies, not ELA, and in a grade with no test at the end and curriculum focused on North Carolina History. In other words, he snuck it in the back door. 5. Most ELA teachers are former English majors, trained in departments that emphasize literature or teach literature as English. They are also attracted to those programs and fear anything vaguely formal in nature. 6. People who work in English Education tend to be former ELA teachers, who research these areas and emphasize them in their teacher education classes. Most that I am aware of have one class on language, something like "pedagogical grammar." I managed to insert a sociolinguistics class in one prominent program I used to work in, but it had never occurred to them until I mentioned it. I got it in because it addressed diversity! The only way out I can see is to create a scandal on the lines of "Kids today can graduate without knowing what a noun is!" "Kids today can graduate without knowing how to use a dictionary!" for public consumption and talk about "dialect diversity" among academics. And then look to the research literature that shows how that language ignorance can despite what some educators may think does impact Standard English production. -- Michael Newman Assistant Professor of Applied Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Sep 27 13:43:19 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:43:19 -0400 Subject: Spanish linguist In-Reply-To: <3BB32868.26A6841D@mtnhome.com> Message-ID: Colleagues, I am looking for a Spanish linguist with good proficiency in the language to teach one undergraduate and one graduate "topics in linguistics" (your choice, e.g., dialectology, discourse, syntax) course and an advanced course in pronunciation (three courses in all) for the Spring Semester 2002 only. ABD or recent PhD. Please write to me directly (preston at msu,.edu) offering either yourself or suggesting a name. I do not know some important details (e.g., salary) so don't even ask me, but I will put you in touch with the person who does immediately. The job is not completely without promise for the future, but that cannot be officially stated. Thanks, dInIs -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Sep 27 10:28:35 2001 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:28:35 -0400 Subject: More 9.11-Related Words In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010926233704.00a22ea0@pop.visi.com> Message-ID: I've always called a box cutter a "utility knife," too. But I'm pretty sure I learned the term from a do-it-yourselfer's manual rather than from speakers in whatever region I happened to be living in at the time. Joanne Despres From paul at IMPLICATURE.COM Thu Sep 27 13:40:40 2001 From: paul at IMPLICATURE.COM (Paul Ivsin) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:40:40 -0500 Subject: Jake brakes what, not where Message-ID: The Jacobs Manufacturing Company (established 1903, A. I. Jacobs, president, now known as Jacobs Vehicle Systems) developed "Jake Brakes" in 1960. Product specs are on their web site, http://www.jakebrakes.com ... Paul Ivsin paul at ivsin.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul M. Johnson" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 8:23 AM Subject: Jake brakes what, not where a system of using engine compression as a method of breaking heavy duty trucks. The noise is in effect the unmuffled engine. Where the name came from is unknown to me. From bergdahl at OHIO.EDU Thu Sep 27 14:28:05 2001 From: bergdahl at OHIO.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:28:05 -0400 Subject: Jackleg In-Reply-To: <010301c14738$d86ce380$023264c0@green> Message-ID: > > _Jake brakes_ are beyond me, but there might, given _jakeleg_ be a link. > > Jonathon Green Related to the "jack" of "I don't care jackshit about..." [which isn't in DARE]? My conjecture is that it's related to Jacques [=toilet] and thus is used to attach a negative connotation. Hence we have "jackstone' = wasterock associated with coal; "jackpine" = smaller than the norm; "jackass brandy" = poor quality liquor; "jackass clover" =a rank-smelling plant; "jackfish" = freshwater fish that are not good to eat; "jack-fool" a great fool. [all < DARE, vol 3] Seems like a negative intensifier to me: "jack-brakes" are brakes that are decidedly inferior. _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From bergdahl at OHIO.EDU Thu Sep 27 14:32:54 2001 From: bergdahl at OHIO.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:32:54 -0400 Subject: Was the box-cutter used by the terrorists the same as Frank Abate described? In-Reply-To: <03ed01c1474b$ce738100$5102020a@graphnet.com> Message-ID: You forget that "boxcutters" were found stored under the seats of planes grounded Sept 11th and found in the overhead luggage compartments of other jets on Sept 17th. --On Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:58 AM -0400 Bruce Dykes wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John D. Hopkins" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 07:26 > Subject: Was the box-cutter used by the terrorists the same as Frank Abate > described? > >> But back to my question. Has there been an exact description of what >> type of box-cutter was actually used? The only reference I've seen is >> that it was of Swiss manufacture, purchased in Switzerland. To me, that >> would seem to rule out the small, simple razor-blade box cutter that I >> have used and Frank Abate described. > > Sadly, the only flight likely to give up its history in any sort of detail > is flight 93, and then only if we're lucky. The primary reports of box > cutters and knives came from cell phone calls from passengers on one or > more of the flights, so we're also relying on what *they* interpret as a > box cutter in the middle of what must surely have been a panicked > environment. > > bkd David Bergdahl _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Sep 27 15:36:25 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:36:25 EDT Subject: ADS visibility & madman Message-ID: In a message dated 9/26/01 5:30:01 PM, AAllan at AOL.COM writes: << Grant Barrett writes: << I suspect we need our own madman to write about >> We do have one. >> And then there is Barry Popik ... ! From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Sep 27 15:42:07 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:42:07 EDT Subject: ADS visibility & madman Message-ID: In a message dated 9/26/01 7:58:50 PM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: << Next thing you know, somebody will be claiming that Jesus didn't write the Bible! >> Jesus couldn't have written The Bible: Jesus did not speak English. From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Sep 27 15:44:51 2001 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:44:51 -0400 Subject: ..Jake Brake trademark.. Message-ID: Since the name Jake Brake is a trademark, in some areas of the country, a concern with using such a name on highway signs was raised earlier this year. I seem to remember that a Pennsylvania town took their 'No Jake Brake' signs down, on the advice of their solicitor. The solicitor's advice might have been preceded by the reception of a little note from the manufacturer and holder of the trademark. George Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Sep 27 16:09:37 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:09:37 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" Message-ID: There's a bit of radio spam I've been hearing lately, on NPR, in connection with some car : "pre-owned." On the model of pre-war, prehistoric, preview, this ought to mean not yet taken possession of, but I think is actually intended as a euphemism for "used." Sloppiness or intentional ambiguity? A. Murie From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Sep 27 16:22:11 2001 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:22:11 -0700 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Pre-owned" meaning "used" has been common in Seattle for years. However, I can't recall the year I first heard it. Early 1990s maybe? allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, sagehen wrote: > There's a bit of radio spam I've been hearing lately, on NPR, in > connection with some car : "pre-owned." On the model of pre-war, > prehistoric, preview, this ought to mean not yet taken possession of, but > I think is actually intended as a euphemism for "used." Sloppiness or > intentional ambiguity? > A. Murie > From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Sep 27 16:14:22 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:14:22 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have heard "pre-owned" as a euphemism for "used" for many years - initially only w/luxury autos. Bethany From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Thu Sep 27 16:25:21 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:25:21 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" Message-ID: Ditto in Boston. It's sometimes spelled out more fully as "previously owned." I don't think there's any intentional ambiguity; it's just the best euphemism that the industry could come up with. John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: A. Maberry [SMTP:maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU] > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 12:22 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "pre-owned" > > "Pre-owned" meaning "used" has been common in Seattle for years. However, > I can't recall the year I first heard it. Early 1990s maybe? > > allen > maberry at u.washington.edu > > On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, sagehen wrote: > > > There's a bit of radio spam I've been hearing lately, on NPR, in > > connection with some car : "pre-owned." On the model of pre-war, > > prehistoric, preview, this ought to mean not yet taken possession of, > but > > I think is actually intended as a euphemism for "used." Sloppiness or > > intentional ambiguity? > > A. Murie > > From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Sep 27 16:24:48 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:24:48 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" Message-ID: pre-own is an entry in OEDs with an e.q. from 1964. pre-owned is an entry in the supplement to MW3. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Sep 27 16:39:32 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:39:32 -0400 Subject: Jackleg In-Reply-To: <010301c14738$d86ce380$023264c0@green> Message-ID: On 9/27/01 05:43, "Jonathon Green" wrote: > Jackleg: seems to to find its ultimate source in the UK-wide 18C/19C dialect > _jack-a-legs_, a large, single-bladed clasp knife, usu. with a broad, square > blade. Thence seen as the type of knife a slapdash or unskilled caprenter > might use rather than more sophisticated tools and appears in US in mid-19C > as the simple 'unskilled', with alternates _jakeleg_ and _jack-legged_. Noun > form deals with various incompetent, unskilled or unprincipled professionals > or workers, esp. the jackleg preacher (although he can be simply an > itinerant). The OED note on jackleg (see jockteleg) is interesting: "[Note. Lord Hailes Spec. Sc. Gloss. (c1776) 18, says ?The etymology of this word remained unknown till not many years ago an old knife was found having this inscription Jacques de Liege, the name of the cutler?. A similar statement is made by Smiles Industr. Biog. (1863) 101, and Jevons Coal Question (1866) 91. The former says ?Jacques de Liege, a famous foreign cutler whose knives were as well known throughout Europe, as those of Rodgers or Mappin are now?. On the face of it this account is plausible: it was not uncommon in Sc. for de to be corrupted to the, e.g. the Bruce; the change of d to t after k is also phonetically simple. But, for the present, Scottish antiquaries have failed to find any confirmation, in knife or document, of Hailes's statement; and inquiries made for us at Liege have been equally unsuccessful in finding any trace of Jacques the cutler.]" -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Sep 27 16:42:17 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:42:17 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility Message-ID: On 9/27/01 07:12, "Frank Abate" wrote: > Lynne M makes a good point. One problem is that in the noncollege > classroom, one has to get the attention of kids who likely are more used to > looking things up online, not in books. I wish that this were true for my classmates at Columbia. Many of them don't know that they have through their costly tuition free access to the OED online, Lexis-Nexis, Dow Jones, JSTOR and many other fee-based online services. What they typically do is an unsophisticated, unrefined search in whatever search engine is the browser default and take the first source that looks good. So, Frank, I would amend your point and say, "kids who likely are more used to looking things up online, without discretion as to the quality or primacy of the source, and not in books." For the average Internet user, books will win on quality every time. > I tend to look things up a lot in my work, and have been at it for a while, > going back to high school. I am pretty fast it at by now, but I still > believe that 8 times out of 10, one can find a specific alphabetic entry > faster in a book than in an electronic dictionary, even if it is open in the > background on one's computer. I prefer books, too, but I work away from my shelves much of the time. One of my favorite tools for looking up quick definitions and spellings online is MacDICT, which uses the DICT protocol to search across multiple dictionaries and reference works, including Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary Version published 1913, the Elements Database, the WordNet database, the US Gazetteer Place and Zipcode Files from the US Census, the Jargon File, the Free Online Dictionary of Computing, Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary, Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary, the Devil's Dictionary (my favorite), the CIA World Factbook, and the VERA list of computational acronyms. About the DICT dictionary protocol: http://www.dict.org/ including a list of client software for various platforms: http://www.dict.org/links.html My preferred DICT client for Macintosh computers: http://www.bainsware.com/macdict/ -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Sep 27 16:41:51 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:41:51 -0400 Subject: Was the box-cutter used by the terrorists the same as Frank Abate described? Message-ID: On 9/27/01 07:58, "Bruce Dykes" wrote: > Sadly, the only flight likely to give up its history in any sort of detail > is flight 93, and then only if we're lucky. The primary reports of box > cutters and knives came from cell phone calls from passengers on one or more > of the flights, so we're also relying on what *they* interpret as a box > cutter in the middle of what must surely have been a panicked environment. Box-cutters, which it is suggested were left by terrorists, have been recovered from flights that did not crash and from automobiles supposedly used by them. -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Sep 27 16:58:17 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:58:17 EDT Subject: my your recommendation Message-ID: It is well known that possessive pronouns (and other possessives) can function in more than one way in English, e.g., "your recommendation" may mean either 'the recommendation that you wrote' or 'the recommendation that was written on your behalf'. Two questions: 1. Can one convey the notion 'the recommendation that I wrote on your behalf' by saying "my your recommendation'? 2. If not, why not? 3. If so, why does "my your recommendation" seem unambiguous [i.e. "your my recommendation" would have to mean 'the recommendation that you wrote on my behalf'? From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Thu Sep 27 17:12:51 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:12:51 +0100 Subject: my your recommendation In-Reply-To: <14d.1aa9549.28e4b4a9@aol.com> Message-ID: --On Thursday, September 27, 2001 12:58 pm +0000 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > 1. Can one convey the notion 'the recommendation that I wrote on your > behalf' by saying "my your recommendation'? No. > 2. If not, why not? Because 'my' and 'your' are determiners, and there's only one determiner slot in at the front of a noun phrase. Same reason you can't say 'the your recommendation' or 'your that recommendation'. The only way you could do that is by reinterpreting 'your' as an adjective, but since it's still reflecting the argument structure that it would reflect when it was a determiner, there's nothing particularly adjective-y about this use, and so it's downright bad to my ear. Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Sep 27 17:14:22 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:14:22 -0700 Subject: "pre-owned" Message-ID: Bethany and all: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bethany K. Dumas" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 9:14 AM Subject: Re: "pre-owned" > I have heard "pre-owned" as a euphemism for "used" for many years - > initially only w/luxury autos. I've heard "pre-owned" for about ten years from now. I think it got started in advertising(but not necessarily just with luxury cars), as a euphemisim for "used", because "pre-owned" sounded, well, better. But people still talk about used cars, furniture, etc. Anne Gilbert From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Sep 27 17:18:40 2001 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:18:40 -0400 Subject: my your recommendation Message-ID: Some recommendations are written 'in your behalf', as opposed to 'on your behalf'. Would the possible existence of that difference answer part of one of your questions? George Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Sep 27 17:23:56 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:23:56 EDT Subject: my your recommendation Message-ID: In a message dated 9/27/01 1:14:21 PM, lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK writes: << > 1. Can one convey the notion 'the recommendation that I wrote on your > behalf' by saying "my your recommendation'? No. > 2. If not, why not? Because 'my' and 'your' are determiners, and there's only one determiner slot in at the front of a noun phrase. Same reason you can't say 'the your recommendation' or 'your that recommendation'. >> So all possessives are determiners? I find "My Alex's recommendation" worse than "My your recommendation," and "Sue's Tom's recommendation" even worse. From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Sep 27 17:17:16 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:17:16 EDT Subject: loup garou? Message-ID: << ... the curious pleonasm of >>"loup-garou" ... >> Which is what? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Sep 27 17:16:44 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:16:44 EDT Subject: Spoofical; Criticized Loans Message-ID: SPOOFICAL Fom TIME OUT NEW YORK, Setp. 27-Oct. 4, 2001, pg. 162, col. 1: A glib and glitzy socialist spoofical (as we call this newish genre), it tickles you while winding up for a sucker punch. Whether _Urinetown_ earns its bitter irony is debatable, but the show's comic wallop cannot be understated: You are in for some roaringly good, trouser-wetting fun. (I saw URINETOWN when it opened at the Fringe Festival a while ago. My pants stayed dry...This URINETOWN review is in TONY's Fifth Annual Eating & Drinking Awards issue..."Spoofical" may be gaining popularity, but the musical spoof is not at all new--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- CRITICIZED LOANS From today's NEW YORK POST, "Expect banks to take a hit from bad loans," 27 September 2001, pg. 42, col. 1: Sources say that three government agencies will soon report a huge jump in "criticized" big loans held by banking syndicates. (...)(Col. 4--ed.) "Criticized" loans are ones that are found to be deficient in some way. It doesn't necessarily mean that the borrowers are going to default--but it also doesn't mean the loans will not go into default. From drew.danielson at CMU.EDU Thu Sep 27 17:25:24 2001 From: drew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:25:24 -0400 Subject: loup garou? Message-ID: C'est le ?werewolf?. http://frenchcaculture.about.com/cs/loupgarou/ http://rking.vinu.edu/loup.htm RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > << ... the curious pleonasm of > >>"loup-garou" ... >> > > Which is what? -- _______________________________________________________________________ Andrew Danielson Admin for Profs. Fedder, Gabriel Carnegie Mellon University Krogh, & Rajkumar Electrical & Computer +1 412 268-2188 Voice Engineering Department +1 412 268-3890 Fax 5000 Forbes Ave. http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~dmunk Pittsburgh, PA 15213 drew.danielson at cmu.edu _______________________________________________________________________ Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day. -- Thomas Jefferson We like all kinds of music/But I like American music best -- Gordon Gano From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Sep 27 17:15:38 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:15:38 -0700 Subject: "pre-owned" Message-ID: Allen: ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. Maberry" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 9:22 AM Subject: Re: "pre-owned" > "Pre-owned" meaning "used" has been common in Seattle for years. However, > I can't recall the year I first heard it. Early 1990s maybe? I live in Seattle, and as I said in another post, I've been hearing it for about 10 years or so. I wonder if the term originated here? Anne Gilbert From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Thu Sep 27 17:31:55 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:31:55 +0100 Subject: my your recommendation In-Reply-To: <34.1b7a5752.28e4baac@aol.com> Message-ID: --On Thursday, September 27, 2001 1:23 pm +0000 RonButters at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/27/01 1:14:21 PM, lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK writes: > > << > 1. Can one convey the notion 'the recommendation that I wrote on your >> behalf' by saying "my your recommendation'? > No. >> 2. If not, why not? > Because 'my' and 'your' are determiners, and there's only one determiner > slot in at the front of a noun phrase. Same reason you can't say 'the > your recommendation' or 'your that recommendation'. >> > > So all possessives are determiners? I find "My Alex's recommendation" > worse than "My your recommendation," and "Sue's Tom's recommendation" > even worse. I find them all just plain bad. I can only presume that you find it easier to process 'your' as an adjective (and not a determiner) than I do. I assume that you have an easier time processing 'your' that way than the others because it's lexicalized already. But I dunno--they're all just stinking bad to me. Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Sep 27 17:42:01 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:42:01 EDT Subject: loup garou? Message-ID: In a message dated 9/27/01 1:25:51 PM, drew.danielson at CMU.EDU writes: << C'est le ?werewolf?. http://frenchcaculture.about.com/cs/loupgarou/ http://rking.vinu.edu/loup.htm RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > << ... the curious pleonasm of > >>"loup-garou" ... >> > > Which is what? >> Yes, but what is "pleonastic" about it? (GAROU isn't in my little dictionary, either) From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Sep 27 17:37:53 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:37:53 EDT Subject: in your behalf? Message-ID: In a message dated 9/27/01 1:21:57 PM, gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU writes: << Some recommendations are written 'in your behalf,' as opposed to 'on your behalf.' Would the possible existence of that difference answer part of one of your questions? >> I don't think so, but what is the difference? I can't think of when I would ever say "in your behalf"! From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Sep 27 18:00:16 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:00:16 -0400 Subject: loup garou? In-Reply-To: <124.507917a.28e4b91c@aol.com> Message-ID: On 9/27/01 13:17, "RonButters at AOL.COM" wrote: > << ... the curious pleonasm of >>> "loup-garou" ... >> > > Which is what? The speculation I cobbled together from multiple sources puts the word changes in roughly this order (spelling, of course, being highly variable): w["a]rwolf, w["a]hrwolf, wehrwolf, werwulf (Germanic or Frankish; man-wolf) wariwulf varulf-r (Old Nordic) garwall, garwaf, garvalf (Old Northern French, 1175, from Les Lais de Marie de France; in one version of the work these three spellings are within a few lines of each other.) waroul, warou, wareu (Not sure whether these go before or after Marie de France) guaroul, garoul, garou Still meaning "werewolf." At which point the "loup" or variations from the Latin "lupus" were added back into the word to create leu garoul then the modern French loup-garou which might be literally said to mean "wolf man-wolf." It's even more fun to explain to others if you add in the Indo-European "wro," the Sanskrit "vira" and the Latin "vir" to the top of the list, and maybe tangent a little on the origin of the word "world." All speculative, but the point of the demonstration was to mark the changes between the original language of Marie de France and modern French, with reference to the Norman invasion and the creation of something resembling our English. Gilles M?nage's "Dictionnaire ?tymologique de la langue fran?oise" (1750) online at the Biblioth?que Nationale Fran?aise has some wild notions about the origin of the word (that it derives directly from the corruption of other, similar, French or Latin words that have to do with the appearance or the conduct of such creatures, without offering specific citations other than other etymologic theorizing, or that it comes from Hebrew, most of which I did not understand as I do not read Latin nor Hebrew, alas) that coordinate with nothing I found elsewhere, so I disregarded those points and stuck to those parts of his etymology that concurred with other sources. The OED has a good general etymology of werewolf, if you're interested in it, with the appropriate amount of doubt sown. -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM Thu Sep 27 17:50:35 2001 From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:50:35 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember about ten years ago, Lexus began marketing "certified pre-owned" cars, the hook being that these were previously owned cars that had been given a thorough over by Lexus dealers to be sold with some backing/warranty by the owners. The reason I specifically remember Lexus is that I watched an entire 30-minute infomercial about this sometime around 1990-92. I thought it was a pretty savvy idea on the part of Lexus to introduce their product to folks who might not normally consider buying it. Now some other luxury car marques are doing the same. I checked out BMW's pre-owned page a while back. It's still a euphemism, but laughingly clever. And I've noticed some people using it, which is weird. I accept pre-owned on paper or on the television, but I still say used in conversation. On 9/27/01 12:14 PM, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > I have heard "pre-owned" as a euphemism for "used" for many years - > initially only w/luxury autos. > > Bethany -- Bob Haas Department of English High Point University "I realise that patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone." Edith Cavell (1865-1915) From tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU Thu Sep 27 18:01:02 2001 From: tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:01:02 -0400 Subject: my your recommendation Message-ID: At least the way I speak, "Sue's Tom's recommendation" might come up in a conversation like this: "Did you get Tom's recommendation?" "Tom who?" "Ohh, I can't remember his last name. You remember Sue, used to be Wilkinson? She married him. Sue's Tom's recommendation." But that would have yet another, and more normal, structure. Thom >X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 >Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:23:56 EDT >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >Sender: American Dialect Society >From: RonButters at AOL.COM >Subject: Re: my your recommendation >Comments: To: lynnem at cogs.susx.ac.uk >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >In a message dated 9/27/01 1:14:21 PM, lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK writes: > ><< > 1. Can one convey the notion 'the recommendation that I wrote on your >> behalf' by saying "my your recommendation'? >No. >> 2. If not, why not? >Because 'my' and 'your' are determiners, and there's only one determiner >slot in at the front of a noun phrase. Same reason you can't say 'the your >recommendation' or 'your that recommendation'. >> > >So all possessives are determiners? I find "My Alex's recommendation" worse >than "My your recommendation," and "Sue's Tom's recommendation" even worse. > Thom Harrison Macon State College From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Thu Sep 27 18:31:53 2001 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:31:53 -0500 Subject: school classrooms (was visibility) Message-ID: Lynne Murphy, responding to Frank Abate's comment that > > The younger set has become enamored of online reference tools, and > > changing their habits will not be easy. by writing: > I'm not sure that we need to change their habits. Yes, it's good to learn > how to use books, but if they're going to use on-line dictionaries, then > they still need dictionary skills. (This seems to go along with the > assumption I saw in a lot of Erin's responses from teachers--assuming that > dictionary skills = alphabetization and use of guide words.) My impression > from students coming into university is that they're given very little > training on critical use of on-line sources. The issue of "the dictionary" > versus dictionaries is as relevant for on-line use as for printed ones. > Skills/knowledge relating to about you should look for in a dictionary, how > many grains of salt you should allow, how to use part-of-speech info or > examples or etymologies, etc. are as relevant to on-line dictionaries as to > print dictionaries. Perhaps the way to get more time in the classroom is > to frame dictionary skills as information skills rather than as book skills. > > Lynne My recent experience with a doctoral candidate in our College of Education suggests that we have a long way to go. I joined this student's committee at the (post-MA) prelim stage, and saw him through that, a dissertation proposal, his research, and the dissertation. When dissertation chapters started to come in, I discovered that he habitually looked to Webster's New World Dictionary as his first (and, usually, only) source for definitions, etymologies, and such. I tried to be gentle in suggesting that Academia prefers OED when we want to be high-falutin', but we'll also accept the M-W 3rd International without raising eyebrows. When additional information seems warranted, we'll generally accept second (or third or fourth) citations to Random House or American Heritage or Thordike, and specialized dictionaries when they are called for because of specialized uses of a term. But, I said, if the sole reference for dictionary questions is Webster's New World, somebody is likely to snicker. My student was thunderstruck twice. His first shock came in learning that THE dictionary doesn't exist: there are dictionaries and dictionaries. He had, honest to God, never heard of OED -- but was awed by it with his first experience. This guy's very bright; he was thunderstruck the second time when he realized that he had gotten all the way to the verge of his doctorate yet nobody had ever taken the time to tell him that the word "dictionary" has a plural form. I wish I could be sure that frontline teachers -- the BAs and MAs who are in charge at the K-12 levels, know at least a bit more than that doctoral student. (He knows lots more now -- and he got his degree at our August Convocation.) Too many of them are still ready to say that "a noun is the name of a person, place, or thing", which only shows that they haven't learned much about linguistics, either. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! IN MEMORIAM: Peggy Salovesh 25 January 1932 -- 3 March 2001 From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Sep 27 18:46:11 2001 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:46:11 -0400 Subject: in your behalf? Message-ID: Ron, Generally, a letter written 'in behalf' of someone is not solicited. In a letter of reference, the phrase indicates that someone took time to do something for which there was not otherwise an obligation, i.e., the author had not been asked to write a letter of reference. I usually think of such reference letters as being 'positive', but I guess that unsolicited negative letters of reference could also be seen as being 'in behalf' of someone. A letter written 'on behalf' of someone is one which is written either at the request of that someone or it was solicited because the author was on a list of references, i.e., the author had otherwise agreed to write a letter of reference. Thus, a recipient's evaluation of a letter of reference would include attention to the presence of the phrase: 'in behalf of' or 'on behalf of'. The above relationships are ones that I was taught, decades ago, in a Business English class, at a 2-year college. I defer to the judgment of the members of this list, as to the existence of a difference in the above phrases, i.e., I'm here to learn, and not to get ticked off. George Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University [As the members of the language programs at Ship may be quick to note, I'm not a member of their department.] From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Sep 27 19:07:45 2001 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:07:45 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is an old euphemism for these junkers. dInIs (ask the man who owns one - extra points for identifying this slogan) >There's a bit of radio spam I've been hearing lately, on NPR, in >connection with some car : "pre-owned." On the model of pre-war, >prehistoric, preview, this ought to mean not yet taken possession of, but >I think is actually intended as a euphemism for "used." Sloppiness or >intentional ambiguity? >A. Murie -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Sep 27 19:16:55 2001 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:16:55 -0400 Subject: loup garou? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ron, that'll teach you to be specific. I too wondered about it pleonasticness (pleonasticity?), not it's meaning, known to all C (or lower-grade) movie fans. dInIs >In a message dated 9/27/01 1:25:51 PM, drew.danielson at CMU.EDU writes: > ><< C'est le ?werewolf?. > > >http://frenchcaculture.about.com/cs/loupgarou/ > >http://rking.vinu.edu/loup.htm > > > > >RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >> > >> << ... the curious pleonasm of > >> >>"loup-garou" ... >> > >> > >> Which is what? >> > >Yes, but what is "pleonastic" about it? (GAROU isn't in my little dictionary, >either) -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU Thu Sep 27 19:12:28 2001 From: mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:12:28 -0500 Subject: my your recommendation In-Reply-To: <4172489.3210603171@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On a related note, on Friends 8/23/01, Joey explains why he is so thrilled to get to work with a particular movie director: "He's the next next Scorcese!" "The next next Scorcese?" "Right, some guy in Chicago is already the next Scorcese." -Mai _________________________________ Mai Kuha mkuha at bsuvc.bsu.edu Department of English (765) 285-8410 Ball State University From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Sep 27 20:10:51 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:10:51 -0700 Subject: "pre-owned" Message-ID: dInIs sez: >This is an old euphemism for these junkers. i have an extremely specific memory associated with this word. a sense of linguistic surprise on being confronted with a sign offering "pre-owned Cadillacs", and in a very specific place, on penn avenue close to the west reading/wyomissing border, west of reading, pa. i was in a car, going west, and i wasn't driving. this could have been no later than 1961, and probably was three or four years earlier. on the other hand, it could just be a vivid dream. arnold From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Sep 27 20:25:53 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:25:53 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >This is an old euphemism for these junkers. > >dInIs (ask the man who owns one - extra points for identifying this slogan) >-- >Dennis R. Preston Yeah, I like junkers. It's been a long time since there was a Packard owner handy to ask. AM A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Sep 27 20:43:24 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:43:24 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The earliest citation in the OED, as has been pointed out already, is dated 1964. Here's an earlier one: 1960 _Wall Street Journal_ 29 July 11 (adv't) A pre-owned cruiser in excellent condition with full equipeed bath and stainless steel galley. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Sep 27 20:47:51 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:47:51 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's a still earlier citation for "pre-owned" (OED 1964): 1956 Donald J. Lloyd _American English in Its Cultural Setting_ 517 Pre-owned televisions can be purchased. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Sep 27 21:05:46 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:05:46 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's not just autos: "While most automobiles depreciate, as they get older, small, pre-owned aircraft have typically held their value, or even appreciated in value, if they were well maintained." Chad Key, 66 Journal of Air Law & Commerce 789. COMMENT: GENERAL AVIATION IN THE NEW MILLENNIUM: PROMISING REBIRTH - OR IMMINENT EXTINCTION? (Spring 2001.) Bethany From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Sep 27 21:11:12 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:11:12 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does "pre-owned" mean something different from "used"? "He would have received exactly what he bargained for--a "pre-owned" home with a used heating plant." Jean Fleming Powers. Expanded Liability and the Intent Requirement in Third Party Beneficiary Contracts. 1993 Utah L. Rev. 67 Bethany From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Sep 27 22:20:08 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:20:08 -0400 Subject: "pre-owned" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Extra credit for A&M! > >This is an old euphemism for these junkers. >> >>dInIs (ask the man who owns one - extra points for identifying this slogan) > >>-- >>Dennis R. Preston > >Yeah, I like junkers. It's been a long time since there was a Packard >owner handy to ask. >AM > >A&M Murie >N. Bangor NY >sagehen at westelcom.com -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Sep 27 23:12:43 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 19:12:43 -0400 Subject: pre-owned Message-ID: Clearly, I haven't been paying enough attention to upmarket ads! However, it wasn't its newness, but its silliness that I meant to call attention to. Thanks for the extra credit, dInIs. I remembered that one because I had an uncle who was himself an advertising man who drove a Packard and used to quote the slogan wryly, as a sort of acknowledgement of its effectiveness. A. Murie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 04:19:21 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:19:21 EDT Subject: Hero sandwich (August 9, 1947) Message-ID: (This continues research into the origin of the "hero" sandwich. I'd previously presented a brief 1947 item, a brief 1949 item, and a 1951 article from the NYHT--ed.) From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 9 August 1947, pg. 9, col. 6: _1,000 Grab Hero Snacks Daily_ _For Hearty Lunch on Ninth Ave._ (PHOTO CAPTION: A thousand heros a day are built for the Ninth Avenue lunch trade by Manganaro, the grocer) _Sandwich Is Built With_ _Half French Loaf, Split_ _Lengthwise, and Fillings_ By Clementine Paddleford Far off the beaten path of the epicures who eat luncheons of vichyssoise, smoked turkey and caviar in the sterile glitter of air-cooled emporiums, is the Manganaro grocery at 488 Ninth Avenue, famous for heros. A thousand men and women push, jostle, crowd to the store's long marble counter each noontime to grab up a hero, a cold beer or coffee. Some seven hundred eat lunch on the spot, another three hundred eat in the street or carry snacks back to their offices. You know the hero? A monster contraption built like a sandwich but of vaster dimensions. The ordinary size costs 35 cents. That's half a French loaf of bread, the half split lengthwise, then the filling laid in. The filling may be proscuitto ham or mozzarele cheese or the two in combination. You can have tuna fish or sardines or salami. Some want a double hero, that's a whole loaf of the long French bread split lengthwise, then sandwiched, the price 70 cents. No mayonnaise, no butter, just bread and plenty of ham, cheese or whatever. The filling in, the top half of the loaf is clamped on and the whole bundled into a waiting hand. Maybe you can find a place to sit at one of the tables--likely not. Rest your beer on a packing case or over there on the bean bags and gnaw into the tidbit. First crush the sandwich between the fingers to flatten it out to squeeze between the jaws. Crumbs from the crisp crust fall to litter the place like brown leaves on the forest floor in late October. (...) From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 05:33:23 2001 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:33:23 EDT Subject: More 9.11-Related Words Message-ID: Here's another one I've heard a couple of times (albeit by the same general crowd of people): "plane" as verb. As in: "I still can't believe that the WTC got planed" OR "We've become the victim of a planeing" It's from a crowd at a radio station (my silly coworkers!) so it might get some local spread, but who knows... -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Southern Illinois University - Carbondale From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 05:36:49 2001 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:36:49 EDT Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) Message-ID: How about: Let's get a taco yo. The yard needs mowed yo. I'm gonna be late for class yo. I've heard them all in the last week. Neither the "y'know" or "hey" definition seem to fit very well (IMHO), but I can't come up with anything else. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Southern Illinois University - Carbondale From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 08:05:14 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 04:05:14 EDT Subject: Manicotti (1947); Butterfly Eyebrows; Smoothie Message-ID: MANICOTTI (continued) OED and M-W have 1948. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 2 August 1947, pg. 9, col. 6: She does the specialties, the revioli, the gnocchi. the lasagna, the manicotti. (...) Manicotti a la Neopolitana is the Saturday feature. Squares of dough are rolled with a filling made with proscuitti ham and the ricotta cheese, egg yolk, and finely cut parsley. The stuffed rolls are covered with a tomato sauce, then under the broiler to bubble and brown. -------------------------------------------------------- BUTERFLY EYEBROWS From the NYHT, 2 July 1947, pg. 20, col. 6: Al Telburn's, the bright little shop that specializes, so the labels tell, in "bees' knees" and "butterflies' eyebrows," meaning about everything fancy... -------------------------------------------------------- SMOOTHIE (continued) From the NYHT, 28 June 1947, pg. (?), col. 2: Suggest an orange smoothie. Stir together two tablespoons orange marmalade to one glass of milk. From tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU Fri Sep 28 12:43:49 2001 From: tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:43:49 -0400 Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" Message-ID: The possible conflict in meanings of "pre-owned"--that is, "someone did something before s/he owned it" vs. "used"--is that analogous to the formerly common "near miss"? "Near miss" looks like it ought to mean that someone almost missed something but hit it after all, while it was used to mean that someone almost hit something but missed it after all. By the way, is there any consensus these days on the non-gender-specific pronoun to agree with "someone"? I see "s/he" in emails, but outside academics "they" seems to be the choice by default. Thom Thom Harrison Macon State College From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 28 13:05:52 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:05:52 -0400 Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20010928084349.006d7774@mail.maconstate.edu> Message-ID: 'They' has been said they whole dang lives by some us academics. We was beat up purty bad for doin' it while we was in school, but after we got out (and got tenured), hit was OK. dInIs >The possible conflict in meanings of "pre-owned"--that is, "someone did >something before s/he owned it" vs. "used"--is that analogous to the >formerly common "near miss"? > >"Near miss" looks like it ought to mean that someone almost missed >something but hit it after all, while it was used to mean that someone >almost hit something but missed it after all. > >By the way, is there any consensus these days on the non-gender-specific >pronoun to agree with "someone"? I see "s/he" in emails, but outside >academics "they" seems to be the choice by default. > >Thom > >Thom Harrison >Macon State College -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 13:25:35 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:25:35 EDT Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" Message-ID: In a message dated 9/28/01 8:44:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU writes: > "Near miss" looks like it ought to mean that someone almost missed > something but hit it after all, while it was used to mean that someone > almost hit something but missed it after all. No, "near-miss" has a more precise meaning than you think. "Near-miss" is used to refer to explosive devices (bombs, artillery shells) which do not hit the target but which explode nearby, so "near" that the target is damaged, perhaps seriously. That is, a "miss" but "near" enough to be damaging. The usage dates to at least the early days of World War II and I think was originally naval---from the beginning of World War II ships were damaged and occasionally sunk by aircraft bombs that missed the ship but exploded at a near enough range to be deadly. -- Jim Landau From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Sep 28 13:19:34 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:19:34 -0400 Subject: VISIBILITY Message-ID: The point I was bringing up has been shunted aside. HOW DO WE INCREASE THE ADS VISIBILITY AMONG TEACHERS WHO SHOULD KNOW ABOUT US? Surely, it is far more than just teaching dictionaries. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From douglas at NB.NET Fri Sep 28 13:35:00 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:35:00 -0400 Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >How about: > >Let's get a taco yo. >The yard needs mowed yo. >I'm gonna be late for class yo. > >I've heard them all in the last week. Neither the "y'know" or "hey" >definition seem to fit very well (IMHO), but I can't come up with anything >else. It is my speculation that in at least some cases -- perhaps in these ones -- this "yo" is probably a vocative "y'all". In some cases it may be a 'meaningless' noise uttered in imitation of somebody else ... but still ultimately a copy of "y'all" ... I suspect originally from popular media of some sort. A young person of my acquaintance expresses the opinion that sentence-terminal "yo" as used at the local school seems to be some version of "you". [This person has little acquaintance with "y'all", and the local speech typically does not include any pronoun which sounds like "yo".] Another young person of similar background who attended the same public school a few years earlier does not recognize the "yo" ... maybe it's a new arrival here ... or maybe it's just a matter of a different circle of friends. -- Doug Wilson From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Sep 28 13:27:02 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:27:02 -0400 Subject: Minor's nationality Message-ID: Unless I utterly misunderstand the following quotation, MINOR WAS AN AMERICAN. Among others forced to abandon the Dictionary by death or illness were two whose daily contribution from the start had been indispensable, Dr. Fitzedward Hall and Dr. W. C. Minor. Bother were Americans and both were sufferers from persecution mania. (K.M. Elisabeth Murray, Caught In the Web of Words. Oxford: OUP, 1977, p 303) Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 28 13:45:51 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:45:51 -0400 Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" In-Reply-To: <10.1324cdd0.28e5d44f@aol.com> Message-ID: Hmmm. "Near miss" also has very precise meaning in the way I use it (having no artillery experience); two airplanes (usually, although I admit other vehicles to the construction) come dangerously close but do not hit, and there is no damage. I think that's pretty precise, as ordinary language goes. dInIs >In a message dated 9/28/01 8:44:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU writes: > >> "Near miss" looks like it ought to mean that someone almost missed >> something but hit it after all, while it was used to mean that someone >> almost hit something but missed it after all. > >No, "near-miss" has a more precise meaning than you think. "Near-miss" is >used to refer to explosive devices (bombs, artillery shells) which do not hit >the target but which explode nearby, so "near" that the target is damaged, >perhaps seriously. > >That is, a "miss" but "near" enough to be damaging. > >The usage dates to at least the early days of World War II and I think was >originally naval---from the beginning of World War II ships were damaged and >occasionally sunk by aircraft bombs that missed the ship but exploded at a >near enough range to be deadly. > > -- Jim Landau -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 28 13:48:47 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:48:47 -0400 Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928090427.024cb260@nb.net> Message-ID: "The yard needs mowed yo" is my favorite example sentence of the year. Could we add such a category to the "Word of the Year" contest? Or would it cheapen that august process. dInIs >>How about: >> >>Let's get a taco yo. >>The yard needs mowed yo. >>I'm gonna be late for class yo. >> >>I've heard them all in the last week. Neither the "y'know" or "hey" >>definition seem to fit very well (IMHO), but I can't come up with anything >>else. > >It is my speculation that in at least some cases -- perhaps in these ones >-- this "yo" is probably a vocative "y'all". In some cases it may be a >'meaningless' noise uttered in imitation of somebody else ... but still >ultimately a copy of "y'all" ... I suspect originally from popular media of >some sort. > >A young person of my acquaintance expresses the opinion that >sentence-terminal "yo" as used at the local school seems to be some version >of "you". [This person has little acquaintance with "y'all", and the local >speech typically does not include any pronoun which sounds like "yo".] >Another young person of similar background who attended the same public >school a few years earlier does not recognize the "yo" ... maybe it's a new >arrival here ... or maybe it's just a matter of a different circle of friends. > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Sep 28 13:29:40 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:29:40 -0400 Subject: more on dictionaries Message-ID: I suspect there are even some librarians who don't know about the differences (either subtle or major) in modern dictionaries. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From Vocabula at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 13:41:56 2001 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:41:56 EDT Subject: VISIBILITY Message-ID: >Dear Allan and the rest of the list, >My wife, Hollis, was wearing her spectacular ADS shirt at a Celtic Day >festival last weekend when a phonology teacher at SUNY New Paltz >engaged her in a conversation about the ADS. She had NEVER heard of >it. How could this be? Don't instructors tell their students about >professional societies? >Regards, >David >barnhart at highlands.com The other day, I wrote the following letter to Allan Metcalf: Dear Professor Metcalf Perhaps The Vocabula Review can help increase ADS visibility. Between 40,000 and 70,000 people visit the TVR site each month. An ad in TVR is not costly: http://www.vocabula.com/VRadrates.htm. Regards Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review http://www.vocabula.com ___________________________________________________ To subscribe to The Vocabula Review: http://www.vocabula.com/VRsubscribe.htm Do you enjoy reading The Vocabula Review each month? If so, please help ensure that you can by contributing now: http://www.vocabula.com/VRgenerosity.htm ___________________________________________________ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 United States Tel: (781) 861-1515 From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Sep 28 13:42:41 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:42:41 -0400 Subject: Minor's nationality In-Reply-To: ; from ADS-L@HIGHLANDS.COM on Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 09:27:02AM -0400 Message-ID: > Unless I utterly misunderstand the following quotation, MINOR WAS AN > AMERICAN. He was a Connecticut-born, Yale-educated, Union Army officer. I'm not sure how much more American you can get. Jesse Sheidlower From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Fri Sep 28 13:43:35 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:43:35 +0100 Subject: VISIBILITY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Friday, September 28, 2001 9:19 am -0400 Barnhart wrote: > The point I was bringing up has been shunted aside. > > HOW DO WE INCREASE THE ADS VISIBILITY AMONG TEACHERS WHO SHOULD KNOW > ABOUT US? Surely, it is far more than just teaching dictionaries. I'm not sure who the teachers are that you think should know about us. I think the original problem was that someone's phonology instructor at New Paltz didn't know. If you want greater visibility among non-dialectologist linguists, then I'd suggest more announcements of ADS activities and resources to the Linguist List, since almost everyone reads that. If the question is about school teachers knowing about us, I'd first ask, why should they? But if we wanted better school visibility, I'd say we need more interaction with the National Council of Teachers of English. My guess, though is that the New Paltz instructor was either a TA who's not yet on top of things, a theoretician who has no time for 'applied' matters such as dialectology, or someone without an active research life. There are always going to be such people who don't know about the professional societies related to one's field, and so I don't see that the failure of one instructor to know about ADS is cause for any panic. Lynne M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 13:46:48 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:46:48 EDT Subject: double possessives Message-ID: 1. In a message dated 9/27/2001 2:11:23 PM, tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU writes: << At least the way I speak, "Sue's Tom's recommendation" might come up in a conversation like this: "Did you get Tom's recommendation?" "Tom who?" "Ohh, I can't remember his last name. You remember Sue, used to be Wilkinson? She married him. Sue's Tom's recommendation." But that would have yet another, and more normal, structure. Thom >> Yes, here (if I understand you correctly) "Sue's" modifies "Tom's". I'm interested in the case where both of the possessives modify the noun. --On Thursday, September 27, 2001 1:48 pm +0000 RonButters at aol.com wrote: 2. > In a message dated 9/27/01 1:32:39 PM, lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK writes: Possessives _are_ determiners--in all of the cases you cited. And that's why you can't have them together. I don't know why you (apparently) can have 'my your' (that's the personal 'you', not the generic 'you'. I still can't have it at all.) If possessives are determiners, then Thom's example gives us a determiner modifying another determiner. I guess that is OK, but the "syntactic" rules here keep getting more and more complex. Perhaps what we have here are not syntactic rules at all, but just pragmatic constraints? Consider the following utterances, which seem OK to me: Is this your Handel's "Messiah" CD or mine? Which is a better print, my Renoir's "Lunch of the Boating Party" or Tom's? The pragmatic rule would be that it is OK to use two possessives before a noun iff (1). it is clear from context that they modify different nouns (as in Thom's example) or (2). it is clear from context that they are different kinds of possessives (i.e., possessives of ownership vs. possessives of creation. Double pronouns are so lacking in specificity (being essentially deictic) that they are really impossible to process and hence seem to violate a syntactic rule. 3. Can anyone think of an example that contrast alienable and inalienable possession (e.g., "This is Tom's your eye" versus "This is Jack's your eye")? The only ones that work for me at all seem quite obscene, but that may just be the way my mind works. From douglas at NB.NET Fri Sep 28 13:49:18 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:49:18 -0400 Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >"The yard needs mowed yo" is my favorite example sentence of the >year. My yard needs big mojo indeed. -- Doug Wilson From paul at IMPLICATURE.COM Fri Sep 28 13:41:50 2001 From: paul at IMPLICATURE.COM (Paul Ivsin) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:41:50 -0500 Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" Message-ID: Seems to me that the possible conflict is nothing more than a multiplicity of accepted uses of "pre" and "near." "Pre" can be used as "prior to" (prehistory), but is quite commonly used to mean "in advance" (preheated, prepayment, prefabricated). "Near" has, similarly, uses as "almost" (near death, near beer) and "close" (nearby, near side, near point, near miss). Someone could, I suppose, reanalyze "pro" in the same way (pronoun, pro tempore, pro-choice), if ya really wanted to. Paul ... Paul Ivsin paul at ivsin.com ... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thom Harrison" To: Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 7:43 AM Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" The possible conflict in meanings of "pre-owned"--that is, "someone did something before s/he owned it" vs. "used"--is that analogous to the formerly common "near miss"? "Near miss" looks like it ought to mean that someone almost missed something but hit it after all, while it was used to mean that someone almost hit something but missed it after all. By the way, is there any consensus these days on the non-gender-specific pronoun to agree with "someone"? I see "s/he" in emails, but outside academics "they" seems to be the choice by default. Thom Thom Harrison Macon State College From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 28 14:17:16 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:17:16 -0400 Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928094734.02500880@nb.net> Message-ID: Aha! Finally a fellow palatalizer! dInIs >>"The yard needs mowed yo" is my favorite example sentence of the >>year. > >My yard needs big mojo indeed. > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 28 14:31:41 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:31:41 -0400 Subject: VISIBILITY In-Reply-To: <4280761.3210677015@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: Let me second much of what Lynne has outlined below. First, our visibility among linguists of every stripe has increased dramatically since we began meeting with LSA. As those who attend the annual meeting will note, the rooms are crowded for nearly every presentation (not just Word of the Year), and the crowd comes from many who attend the LSA for purposes other than dialectology and language variation, I assure you. Furthermore, our cooperation with NWAV over the last few years and our long-standing cooperation with the International Methods in Dialectology Conference has brought us to the attention of mainstream variationists or sociolinguists, many of whom had odd ideas about dialectology and dialectologists. They have also been educated. I do not want to cast aspersions on New Paltz's phonologist, but I suspect Lynne's characterization might be correct. It would be hard to attend any recent LSA meeting and, if nothing else, ignore the screaming in the hallways as the Word of the Year makes itself known. Second, we should make a bigger splash at NCTE and perhaps other venues which attract teachers of language and languages. I hasten to point out, however, that many members are involved in not just time-to-time consulting with schools and appearances in schools. Walt Wolfram, one of our Past-Presidents, for example, has developed curricula in Washington, D.C. Baltimore, and North Carolina specifically devised around language and variety and prepared for schools and teachers. Many others in our Society have carried out perhaps less elaborate but similar research and curriculum programs, including many of us who are even more frequently consulted for and are cooperating in creating TV, Public Radio, and other information dissemination programs. All in all, I'd say the ADS was making itself better and better known, both among professionals and the general public. Let's keep it up, and let's not berate ourselves too harshly when we find out next week that there's a semanticist on the West Coast who also hasn't heard of us. I'd rather conclude it wasn't a very good semanticist. diNis >--On Friday, September 28, 2001 9:19 am -0400 Barnhart > wrote: > >>The point I was bringing up has been shunted aside. >> >>HOW DO WE INCREASE THE ADS VISIBILITY AMONG TEACHERS WHO SHOULD KNOW >>ABOUT US? > >I'm not sure who the teachers are that you think should know about us. I >think the original problem was that someone's phonology instructor at New >Paltz didn't know. If you want greater visibility among non-dialectologist >linguists, then I'd suggest more announcements of ADS activities and >resources to the Linguist List, since almost everyone reads that. > >If the question is about school teachers knowing about us, I'd first ask, >why should they? But if we wanted better school visibility, I'd say we >need more interaction with the National Council of Teachers of English. > >My guess, though is that the New Paltz instructor was either a TA who's not >yet on top of things, a theoretician who has no time for 'applied' matters >such as dialectology, or someone without an active research life. There >are always going to be such people who don't know about the professional >societies related to one's field, and so I don't see that the failure of >one instructor to know about ADS is cause for any panic. > >Lynne > > >M Lynne Murphy >Lecturer in Linguistics >School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences >University of Sussex >Brighton BN1 9QH >UK > >phone +44-(0)1273-678844 >fax +44-(0)1273-671320 -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 15:08:48 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:08:48 EDT Subject: Escalator; NYC Street Games Message-ID: ESCALATOR OED has 1900 and Otis. From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 3 June 1947, pg. 22, col. 5: _Jesse W. Reno_ _Dead; Inventor_ _Of Escalator, 85_ ------------------ _Sold Company to Otis in_ _1910; Was President of_ _Marine Salavage Concern_ (...) He escalator, an inclined endless belt with cleats, was first installed at the Third Evenue Elevated Railway station at Fifty-ninth Street in New York. The second was in the Bloomingdale store at the same location. At the advent of the escalator more than fifty years ago, Mr. Reno formed the Reno Inclined Elevator Company to exploit his invention and was president of the concern fof fifteen years. In 1910 he sold the organization to the Otis Elevator Company. -------------------------------------------------------- GOING-OUT-OF-BUSINESS SALE Not in OED. From THIS WEEK, NYHT, 22 June 1947, pg. 8, col. 2: _How to Go Out of Business_ IF YOU announce a "going-out-of-business" sale, you had better live up to the promise or have a pretty good reason for a change of plans. Violators may find that the License Commissioner has turned a cheap promotion stunt into a boomerang. -------------------------------------------------------- DON'T JUST SIT THERE--DO SOMETHING!--cartoon caption in the NYHT, 6 July 1947, section 2, pg. 7, cols. 4-5. WELL, LOOK WHO'S TALKING!--cartoon caption in NYHT, 13 July 1947, section 2, pg. 7, cols. 3-4. FIGHTERS ARE PEOPLE, TOO--Usually "Kids are people, too." From a breaker in the Red Smith column, NYHT, 18 July 1947, pg. 21, col. 4. YOU CAN'T LAND THEM ALL--Usually "You can't win them all." From a Red Smith fishing column, NYHT, 17 June 1947, pg. 21, col. 5. THE HEAT IS ON--column title in the NYHT, 22 August 1947, pg. 17, cols. 7-8. MAMMY SINGER--Not in OED. This is a person in blackface who sings "Mammy" or other songs. From the obituary of Walter Donaldson (who wrote "Mammy"), NYHT, 16 July 1947, pg. 20, col. 3: "In 1920 he wrote 'My Mammy,' first introduced by Bill Frawley in vaudeville. The next year Al Jolson sang it in 'Sinbad' and became known as 'The Mammy Singer.'" -------------------------------------------------------- STREET GAMES From "On the SIDEWALKS OF NEW YORK," THIS WEEK, NYHT, 1 June 1947. Pg. 6 Captions: SUBWAY STRAPS make wonderful trapeze rings. ROLLER SKATE HOCKEY is safe--at a distance. Pg. 7 Captions: STOOP BALL: An invention born from necessity. BUCK, BUCK is a carry-over from the athletes of Sparta. POTSY, alias "Hopscotch," is strictly for the ladies. Pg. 36, col. 2: _Perfect for Potsy_ ANY small firl will tell you that about the most useful things around are the sidewalk "boxes" made by the lines in the cement. They help in chalking out games of Potsy. Balanced on one long, skinny, scarred leg, Penny demonstrates. "You throw a bottle top, or an old rubber heel, and then you hop, first here, then here..." Anywhere else in the United States this would be hopscotch, but New Yorker Penny insists it's Potsy. If you listen to lamppost talk around your neighborhood you know about Ringalieveo (DARE? Not in OED--ed.), or Relieveo, as some call it. West of the Hudson this is Prisoner's Base, but native New Yorkers still use their own quaint term. Then there's Buck-Buck, or Johnny on a Pony. Here's the way Brooklyn Bill Maguire explains it: "Well, the kids in one team line up and bend over. Each puts his hands on the back of the boy ahead. The other guys come along one at a time and take a good run and jump on their backs as hard as they can--try to break 'em down, so they'll all fall down onto the sidewalk. _"How Many Horns?"_ "IF THEY can't do it, the leader on top holds up two or three fingers and says, 'Buck-buck, how many horns are up?' The boy below can't see, so he guesses. If he's right, the teams change 'round. If he's wrong, they get jumped on again." (...) Always, of course, there are little girls jumping ropes and bouncing (Col. 3--ed.) balls and chanting jingles. Come closer to them and you'll hear-- _My mother, your mother,_ _Live across the way_ _415 West Broadway_ _This is what they say:_ _Your old man_ _Is a dirty old man_ _Washes his feet_ _In the drying pan,_ _Combs his hair_ _With the leg of a chair,_ _Your old man_ _Is a dirty old man._ (...) A curious postscript to all these local games is something unheard-of here, but known throughout the West as the New York Game. It starts with this dialogue: "Here we come!" "Where from?" "New York." "What's your trade?" "Lemonade." After this, one team acts out a charade which has nothing to do with either New York or lemonade. _The End_ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 15:19:44 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:19:44 EDT Subject: Escalator; NYC Street Games Message-ID: "Frying" pan, not "drying." DARE has "Johnny-on-the-pony" from 1953. ("chiefly NYC. Cf bumbay. =buck buck 2") In "buck buck," this 1947 citation beats all but one DARE cite. From Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM Fri Sep 28 15:19:23 2001 From: Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM (Jewls2u) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:19:23 -0700 Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Would "the yard needs mowed yo, G" be considered improper? Julienne -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Dennis R. Preston Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 5:49 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "yo" (a slightly different example) "The yard needs mowed yo" is my favorite example sentence of the year. Could we add such a category to the "Word of the Year" contest? Or would it cheapen that august process. dInIs >>How about: >> >>Let's get a taco yo. >>The yard needs mowed yo. >>I'm gonna be late for class yo. >> >>I've heard them all in the last week. Neither the "y'know" or "hey" >>definition seem to fit very well (IMHO), but I can't come up with anything >>else. > >It is my speculation that in at least some cases -- perhaps in these ones >-- this "yo" is probably a vocative "y'all". In some cases it may be a >'meaningless' noise uttered in imitation of somebody else ... but still >ultimately a copy of "y'all" ... I suspect originally from popular media of >some sort. > >A young person of my acquaintance expresses the opinion that >sentence-terminal "yo" as used at the local school seems to be some version >of "you". [This person has little acquaintance with "y'all", and the local >speech typically does not include any pronoun which sounds like "yo".] >Another young person of similar background who attended the same public >school a few years earlier does not recognize the "yo" ... maybe it's a new >arrival here ... or maybe it's just a matter of a different circle of friends. > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 15:42:41 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:42:41 EDT Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" Message-ID: In a message dated 9/28/01 9:39:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > Hmmm. "Near miss" also has very precise meaning in the way I use it > (having no artillery experience); two airplanes (usually, although I > admit other vehicles to the construction) come dangerously close but > do not hit, and there is no damage. I think that's pretty precise, as > ordinary language goes. >From the 1993 edition (only one I have) of the AIrman's Information Manual, page 276, section 7-83 "NEAR MIDAIR COLLISION REPORTING" "b. Definition---A near midair collision is defined as an incident associated with the operation of an aircraft in which a possibility of collision occurs as a result of proximity of less than 500 feet to another aircraft, or a report is received from a pilot or a flight crew member stating that a collision hazard existed between two or more aircraft." Undoubtedly "near miss" is frequently used as a short-hand term for "Near Mid-Air Collision." Instead of your phrase "dangerously close", AIM 7-83b above is more specific: "possibility of collision" or (referring to a flight crew member's opinion) a "collision hazard". Your phrase "there is no damage" is overly optimistic. Among the "Items To Be Reported" in section 7-83e is "10. Injuries, if any." There is no requirement to report damage, if any, to either aircraft, but I imagine that if any damage occurs, it will get reported. (Yes, it is possible for an airplane to sustain damage as the result of an evasive maneuver.) Also, 7-83 ends with the ominous words "When the investigation reveals a violation of an FAA regulation, enforcement action will be pursued." I once saw the transcript of the radio communications during such an incident. Both pilots requested the tower to provide them with the phone number for reporting the incident. - Jim Landau Systems Enginner Federal Aviation Administration Technical Center (ACT-350/BCI) Atlantic City Airport NJ 08405 USA From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Sep 28 16:22:49 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:22:49 -0700 Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" Message-ID: dInIs sez: >'They' has been said they whole dang lives by some us academics. We >was beat up purty bad for doin' it while we was in school, but after >we got out (and got tenured), hit was OK. i don't talk funny like dInIs, but "they" does just fine for me. arnold From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Fri Sep 28 16:05:16 2001 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:05:16 -0400 Subject: "my your recommendation": my opinion Message-ID: Ron asked: >>>>> 1. Can one convey the notion 'the recommendation that I wrote on your behalf' by saying "my your recommendation'? <<<<< No. >>>>> 2. If not, why not? <<<<< It feels dead wrong. If I heard it, I would take it as a correction: "my[, I mean] your recommendation" and suppose that the speaker meant my [that I wrote] I mean your [written in your behalf]* As to why, my off-the-cuff answer is, Two possessive pronouns in a row. Does such a construction occur anywhere? I would say, for short, "my recommendation of you" or possibly "... for you". *Blast and damn, I've forgotten the (largely theoretical) difference between "in" and "on" here. Which one is which? -- Mark A. Mandel From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 16:33:06 2001 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:33:06 EDT Subject: double possessives Message-ID: How's this for a true double possesive: "Is that your my hoodie or my your hoodie?" meaning... Is that my hoodie that you have stolen from me or your hoodie that I had stolen from you [that you are wearing]? My roommate said this this morning and it is a common construction for objects 'borrowed'. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Southern Illinois University - Carbondale From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Sep 28 16:39:37 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:39:37 -0700 Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) Message-ID: dInIs, to/about doug wilson and his mojo "mowed yo": >Aha! Finally a fellow palatalizer! doncha know it! i suspect that we are all, sometimes, palatalizers, but that not all of us are aware of it. arnold From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 16:40:27 2001 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:40:27 EDT Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) Message-ID: "The yard needs mowed yo, G" I could Never say that nor have I ever heard it. I'm not even sure "G" would work without the "yo". If I wanted to say "G" it would have to go something like: "Mow the yard, G." I think perhaps (bear with me...) "G" is the specific and "yo" is the general. That might be why it sounds so odd to make a general statement with the specific pronoun (??). As always, nothing but IMHO. (but beaming Sally Field style because you really liked my example) -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Southern Illinois University - Carbondale From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Sep 28 16:41:25 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:41:25 -0700 Subject: VISIBILITY Message-ID: dInIs: >and let's not berate ourselves too harshly when we find out next >week that there's a semanticist on the West Coast who also hasn't >heard of us. I'd rather conclude it wasn't a very good semanticist. you only do this to annoy. arnold From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 16:51:54 2001 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:51:54 EDT Subject: pin/pen merger, a question... Message-ID: Here's a question I've recently ran into and I can't either find or invent an answer for it. What are the rules for the pin/pen vowel merger? I've got the merger (and when I try not to it comes out pin/pan) but I still have the low-mid "E" as contrasting with "I". ex. with the merger: ink pin vs stick pin alphabit (alphabet) nixt (next) However, I can place a bEt on the horse with the prettiest bIt. And, I can nick (I) my neck (E) while shaveing. Furthermore, If I attempt to say alphabet (E) it doesn't make any sense (like there should be a beta bet, gamma bet, etc). Just wondering what the rules (if any) there are for merging. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Southern Illinois University - Carbondale From tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU Fri Sep 28 17:04:59 2001 From: tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:04:59 -0400 Subject: "my your recommendation": my opinion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Coul I add my bit here? "My your recommendation" sounds as wrong to me as it seems to to everyone else. But how come that seems wrong to everyone, but "I might could make it to the party"--the double modal--only sounds wrong to most people? Could a determined group, by sheer abundant use, force "my your recommendation" into recognition as part of at least some dialects? Thom At 12:05 PM 9/28/01 -0400, you wrote: >Ron asked: > >>>>>> >1. Can one convey the notion 'the recommendation that I wrote on your >behalf' >by saying "my your recommendation'? ><<<<< > >No. > >>>>>> >2. If not, why not? ><<<<< > >It feels dead wrong. If I heard it, I would take it as a correction: "my[, >I mean] your recommendation" and suppose that the speaker meant > > my [that I wrote] >I mean > your [written in your behalf]* > >As to why, my off-the-cuff answer is, Two possessive pronouns in a row. >Does such a construction occur anywhere? > >I would say, for short, "my recommendation of you" or possibly "... for >you". > >*Blast and damn, I've forgotten the (largely theoretical) difference >between "in" and "on" here. Which one is which? > >-- Mark A. Mandel > Thom Harrison Macon State College From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 28 05:52:59 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:52:59 +0800 Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:48 AM -0400 9/28/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >"The yard needs mowed yo" is my favorite example sentence of the >year. Could we add such a category to the "Word of the Year" contest? >Or would it cheapen that august process. > >dInIs > Or, in fast speech, "This yard needs mojo". Mine does, after all this dry weather. L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 28 05:56:16 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:56:16 +0800 Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928094734.02500880@nb.net> Message-ID: At 9:49 AM -0400 9/28/01, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>"The yard needs mowed yo" is my favorite example sentence of the >>year. > >My yard needs big mojo indeed. > >-- Doug Wilson Oops, never mind that last posting of mine. I should have checked all my messages before responding, especially those from Doug W. or Mark M., at least one of whom I should have counted on to have pre-empted me. L From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Sep 28 18:07:35 2001 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:07:35 -0400 Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" In-Reply-To: <129.53da7ed.28e5f471@aol.com> Message-ID: I guess nobody missed my "ordinary language" proviso. (I don't read the Airman's Information manual). dInIs >In a message dated 9/28/01 9:39:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > >> Hmmm. "Near miss" also has very precise meaning in the way I use it >> (having no artillery experience); two airplanes (usually, although I >> admit other vehicles to the construction) come dangerously close but >> do not hit, and there is no damage. I think that's pretty precise, as >> ordinary language goes. > >>>From the 1993 edition (only one I have) of the AIrman's Information Manual, >page 276, section 7-83 "NEAR MIDAIR COLLISION REPORTING" > >"b. Definition---A near midair collision is defined as an incident >associated with the operation of an aircraft in which a possibility of >collision occurs as a result of proximity of less than 500 feet to another >aircraft, or a report is received from a pilot or a flight crew member >stating that a collision hazard existed between two or more aircraft." > >Undoubtedly "near miss" is frequently used as a short-hand term for "Near >Mid-Air Collision." > >Instead of your phrase "dangerously close", AIM 7-83b above is more >specific: "possibility of collision" or (referring to a flight crew member's >opinion) a "collision hazard". > >Your phrase "there is no damage" is overly optimistic. Among the "Items To >Be Reported" in section 7-83e is "10. Injuries, if any." There is no >requirement to report damage, if any, to either aircraft, but I imagine that >if any damage occurs, it will get reported. (Yes, it is possible for an >airplane to sustain damage as the result of an evasive maneuver.) > >Also, 7-83 ends with the ominous words "When the investigation reveals a >violation of an FAA regulation, enforcement action will be pursued." > >I once saw the transcript of the radio communications during such an >incident. Both pilots requested the tower to provide them with the phone >number for reporting the incident. > > - Jim Landau > Systems Enginner > Federal Aviation Administration Technical Center (ACT-350/BCI) > Atlantic City Airport NJ 08405 USA -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Sep 28 18:13:19 2001 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:13:19 -0400 Subject: "yo" (a slightly different example) In-Reply-To: <200109281639.f8SGdb423921@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: arnold, I did a palatalization study not long ago (alas hanging around unpublished) which showed no stylistic variation whatsoever; surprised me, but makes me suspect that you are right; little or no awareness of it (outside us crazy linguists). dInIs >dInIs, to/about doug wilson and his mojo "mowed yo": > >Aha! Finally a fellow palatalizer! > >doncha know it! i suspect that we are all, sometimes, palatalizers, >but that not all of us are aware of it. > >arnold -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Sep 28 18:14:33 2001 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:14:33 -0400 Subject: VISIBILITY In-Reply-To: <200109281641.f8SGfPO23966@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: arnold, But you caught me. dInIs >dInIs: > >and let's not berate ourselves too harshly when we find out next > >week that there's a semanticist on the West Coast who also hasn't > >heard of us. I'd rather conclude it wasn't a very good semanticist. > >you only do this to annoy. > >arnold -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Fri Sep 28 18:01:54 2001 From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Lynn Irons) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:01:54 -0400 Subject: List Errors Message-ID: For the past two weeks list error reports have been averaging over 500 per day. To solve this problem, I have been removing email accounts from the ads-l list (approximately 20 so far). Most of the notices of removal have likewise been bouncing back, suggesting that the email account is no longer in service. If, however, you receive such a notice, do not take offense: simply re-subscribe. In some cases there are network relay problems. That is, a local network is trying to deliver the message to some account other than the one from which a person is subscribed and the account has been is inactive or no longer available. I apologize for the inconvenience. -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 18:27:34 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:27:34 EDT Subject: CPL response on "Windy City" Message-ID: The Chicago Public Library responded on "Windy City." "Windy City" is explained in _two_ places on the CPL web site. They are correcting the place where it says that Charles A. Dana "coined" the term. However, the other explanation must also be corrected. Charles A. Dana didn't even "popularize" the term. SPORTING LIFE had "Windy City" in a list of city nicknames in 1886. It is wrong to state that "Windy City" comes from early 19th-century Chicago boosterism. No one seems to be bothered that there is not one single citation to support this. Chicago's wind was known for a long time ("windy city of Chicago" was in 1880s PUCK). However, I did extensive checking of the 1884 political conventions in Chicago, and "Windy City" was _not_ used. It was not until the Chicago Tribune's extensive pushing of Chicago's summer breeze making it an excellent summer resort (later explained by the Tribune on September 11, 1886) that the city nickname came to be applied. The Chicago Tribune still won't respond to me. Write to their Public Editor (Don Wycliff at dwycliff at tribune.com) and try for yourself. --Barry Popik Bapopik at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Subject: Response from CPL E-Mail Reference Team Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:22:03 +0100 Size: 3662 URL: From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 28 06:32:34 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:32:34 +0800 Subject: "my your recommendation": my opinion In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20010928130459.006d8d04@mail.maconstate.edu> Message-ID: At 1:04 PM -0400 9/28/01, Thom Harrison wrote: >Coul I add my bit here? > >"My your recommendation" sounds as wrong to me as it seems to to everyone >else. > >But how come that seems wrong to everyone, but "I might could make it to >the party"--the double modal--only sounds wrong to most people? > >Could a determined group, by sheer abundant use, force "my your >recommendation" into recognition as part of at least some dialects? > >Thom > In brief, yes. If a group existed for whom "my your recommendation" was a possible way of saying 'my recommendation for you', the double possessive would then be recognized as a (dialect) trait for the group in question, as the "double modal" trait is for speakers in a region including much of Arkansas, Texas, and adjacent regions. (And of course not just any sequence of modals is possible for such speakers, and variation within the class of speakers and the class of modals has been attested.) In fact, given Douglas Bigham's attestation of "Is that your my hoodie or my your hoodie?" with the intended meaning 'Is that my hoodie that you have stolen from me or your hoodie that I had stolen from you [that you are wearing]?', such a group (not necessarily a "determined" group--I'm not sure what you mean by that qualification) already exists, assuming it doesn't consist of just DSB's roommate. (I've used a double comparative on occasion--"You're more meaner than he is than he's dumber than you" or the like--but that doesn't really count.) Larry From stevekl at PANIX.COM Fri Sep 28 18:39:22 2001 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:39:22 -0400 Subject: Little Italy north/pizza pie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, Mark Mandel wrote: > Where I live in Framingham, Mass., a western suburb of Boston, there's a > shop called "Ty's Pies". To my disappointment, it is a pizzeria, not a pie > bakery. (I like pizza, but I was hoping for dessert-type pies.) In the 2400 block of Clark Street there's a pizzeria called "My Pie." In a block of high turnover, it's probably one of the few businesses that hasn't been anything else in the past 15 years. -- Steve Kl. From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Fri Sep 28 18:45:58 2001 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:45:58 -0700 Subject: Virus Activity Message-ID: Apparently someone has come up with a virus that can be spread through a listserv name. Just a caution to anyone on any listserv, including ADS-L. Rudy ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:05:08 -0700 From: Anne Vail To: COH_SUPPORT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Virus Activity from FSO There is currently an email floating around campus which came from eforms at listserv.arizona.edu which contains an executable attachment named provided.com. We've also seen it under introduce.com or introduce.exe. The file name is actually irrelevant. Don't open it. As always, be wary of unsolicited email and attachments and don't blanketly trust anyone. If you must trust, VERIFY before taking what might be a dangerous leap. Several users in our College have been affected. Since the release from the eforms listserv, FSO is taking steps to begin filtering their listserv messages to strip potential and real virus threats, as this one. >From FSO: In an effort to avoid future issues like what happened this morning in regards to virii spreading through our listservs, we have implemented two new rules on all of our listservs: - strip all attachments - strip HTML mail We are in the process of applying these new rules to all of the listservs held under FSO today. If you believe you have been affected, please shut down your computer and call us at 349-3644. Thank you, COH Support Systems From stevekl at PANIX.COM Fri Sep 28 18:46:35 2001 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:46:35 -0400 Subject: ADS visibility focus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Barnhart wrote: > This thread is very interesting. However, we seem to have drifted some > distance from the original thought. How should each of us raise the > visibility of ADS? When I was a grad student in linguistics, everyone seemed to be familiar with the LSA (especially since that's where a lot of departments held interviews). Since the ADS meets concurrently with the LSA, I think most effective and most inexpensive way of doing this would be to engineer some method of upping our name-recognition at LSA. This isn't as easy as it sounds, as people going to the LSA divide off into phonologyland or semanticsville, etc., but perhaps the idea of having a few papers that are joint LSA-ADS, if that's at all possible, would work. Or, even better, if someone from the ADS were to present a paper at the LSA about the ADS, that would be a good thing. Most importantly, I would the think the ADS needs to, in one cogent paragraph, comapre and contrast it's raisin d'etre with that of the LSA. For many people in the LSA, they may not understand why they would be welcome at the ADS as well. -- Steve Kl. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Sep 28 18:38:08 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:38:08 -0400 Subject: VISIBILITY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Sep 2001, Barnhart wrote: >The point I was bringing up has been shunted aside. > >HOW DO WE INCREASE THE ADS VISIBILITY AMONG TEACHERS WHO SHOULD KNOW >ABOUT US? Surely, it is far more than just teaching dictionaries. Okay, David, since you insist. My univ. maintains a "speaker bureau" - if you sign up, agrreeing to speak to a few groups each year, you list the topics you are willing to talk about to Rotary, women's clubs, etc. I used to do that, and some of my topics involved language variation. At one time there was also such a list for invididuals willing to go to K-12 schools. I don't know whether it continues. Another vehicle used to be state NEH grants. Bethany From stevekl at PANIX.COM Fri Sep 28 18:51:54 2001 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:51:54 -0400 Subject: school classrooms (was visibility) In-Reply-To: <3116519.3210585614@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Lynne Murphy wrote: > Erin McKean did a study on what teachers feel they do/need for dictionary > skills teaching, which is published in last year's _Dictionaries_. The > problem, of course, is that teachers are already expected to do way too > much in their limited time, so dictionary skills often fall through the > cracks. My sister and my mom both teach in public schools for middle-of-the-road students (ie, not remedial, but not advanced, either).Most of their students have enough difficult with reading comprehension that the concept of using a dictionary is sadly beyond their ken. I think this has been pointed out before, but if we're going to raise awareness with kids, we have to start them when they're young and first learning to read. Many of the younger teachers themselves were a product of school systems from a time when dictionaries were abandoned, so *they* need to be instructed in how to use a dictionary, too. On the other hand, I started using the 1966 unabridged Random House (hi, Enid!) when I was 5, and look what's happened to me... :) -- Steve From stevekl at PANIX.COM Fri Sep 28 18:57:00 2001 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:57:00 -0400 Subject: my your recommendation In-Reply-To: <4172489.3210603171@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Lynne Murphy wrote: > Because 'my' and 'your' are determiners, and there's only one determiner > slot in at the front of a noun phrase. Same reason you can't say 'the your > recommendation' or 'your that recommendation'. The maid picked up my his towel but left my wife's her towel on the floor. I agree with Lynn, but you can get very context-specific readings to work if you say them just right, or set up the context just right, the way you can make "Agnew supposes poached." to be grammatical if you set the context up right. -- Steve Kl. From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM Fri Sep 28 18:54:44 2001 From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Pearsons, Enid) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:54:44 -0400 Subject: school classrooms (was visibility) Message-ID: All good things. Lexicography and orthoepy are lucky to have you. > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Kl. [mailto:stevekl at PANIX.COM] > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 2:52 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: school classrooms (was visibility) > > On the other hand, I started using the 1966 unabridged Random > House (hi, > Enid!) when I was 5, and look what's happened to me... :) > > -- Steve > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Sep 28 07:31:29 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 15:31:29 +0800 Subject: my your recommendation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:57 PM -0400 9/28/01, Steve Kl. wrote: >On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Lynne Murphy wrote: > >> Because 'my' and 'your' are determiners, and there's only one determiner >> slot in at the front of a noun phrase. Same reason you can't say 'the your >> recommendation' or 'your that recommendation'. > >The maid picked up my his towel but left my wife's her towel on the floor. > >I agree with Lynn, but you can get very context-specific readings to work >if you say them just right, or set up the context just right, the way you >can make "Agnew supposes poached." to be grammatical if you set the >context up right. > I'm not sure the two cases are parallel. Yours aren't really "my his towel" and "my wife's her towel" but "my 'HIS' towel and "my wife's 'HER' towel; these 'his' and 'her' aren't possessives but names of towels. "Agnew supposes poached" or, as I recall it, "Jerry thinks with a fork" as elliptical replies in exchanges like --How does Nixon eat his eggs? --(I'm not sure, but) Agnew supposes ___ poached. --How does the Pope eat his peas? --(I don't know, but) Jerry thinks ____ with a fork don't involve the same kind of quotation contexts, playing instead off what ISN'T said but can be filled in. In any case, we have it from Douglas Bigham that "my your hoodie" is perfectly well-formed and interpretable by his roommate without either quotation or ellipsis (at least without the very marked ellipsis in "supposes poached"/"thinks with a fork" above), so we evidently don't have to go to these contextual lengths. larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 19:58:29 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 15:58:29 EDT Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" Message-ID: In a message dated 9/28/01 3:25:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > I guess nobody missed my "ordinary language" proviso. (I don't read > the Airman's Information manual). First, I was pointing out that your definition became incorrect when you included the statement "and there is no damage," It is not well known to non-aviators, but injuries and damage can occur from a near miss. In fact, there is one scenario (luckily, very easily avoided) in which a near miss can cause one plane to crash. Second, any time you hear a news report about a "near miss", almost certainly the report was based at least partly on statements from - the flight crew - an airline spokesperson (or the owner of the plane, if not an airline) - an FAA spokesperson and all of the above have some familiarity with the Airman's Information Manual (by the way, the "M" in "Manual" is capitalized). Controllers have their own jargon for describing these situations. I doubt that the general public would recognize the terms "range ring", "deal", "snitch", "seven mile club", and "system fault." However, I did once hear a controller say "two airliners got a close look at each other." - Jim Landau From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Sep 28 21:18:14 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 17:18:14 -0400 Subject: VISIBILITY Message-ID: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU,Net writes: >Okay, David, since you insist. My univ. maintains a "speaker bureau" - >if >you sign up, agrreeing to speak to a few groups each year, you list the >topics you are willing to talk about to Rotary, women's clubs, etc. I >used to do that, and some of my topics involved language variation. At >one >time there was also such a list for invididuals willing to go to K-12 >schools. I don't know whether it continues. Dear Bethany, I still do it. However, if I am to come to Tennessee, I hope they'll pay my train fare. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Sep 28 22:19:17 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 18:19:17 -0400 Subject: VISIBILITY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Sep 2001, Barnhart wrote: >I still do it. However, if I am to come to Tennessee, I hope they'll >pay my train fare. I'll speak to them, David! Bethany From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Sep 28 23:08:00 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:08:00 -0400 Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" In-Reply-To: <171.19e869b.28e63065@aol.com> Message-ID: Righto. And the general public has no business knowing this jargon; so we get to make up our own meanings. Good ones in this case, I think. I could go for "It was a near miss, but the banking away from the impending collision was so steep that lots of passengers were hurt, some badly." Still didn't hit; still no damage to the plane. Maybe I could go for, "The plane had to swerve so badly after the near miss over O'Hare that it lost it's Johnson Bar and had to be grounded." Note the "but." Implication of near miss - still no damage. Hope ya'll know what a Johnson Bar is; hate to use technical terms. dInIs >In a message dated 9/28/01 3:25:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, preston at MSU.EDU >writes: > >> I guess nobody missed my "ordinary language" proviso. (I don't read >> the Airman's Information manual). > >First, I was pointing out that your definition became incorrect when you >included the statement "and there is no damage," It is not well known to >non-aviators, but injuries and damage can occur from a near miss. In fact, >there is one scenario (luckily, very easily avoided) in which a near miss can >cause one plane to crash. > >Second, any time you hear a news report about a "near miss", almost certainly >the report was based at least partly on statements from > - the flight crew > - an airline spokesperson (or the owner of the plane, if not an airline) > - an FAA spokesperson >and all of the above have some familiarity with the Airman's Information >Manual (by the way, the "M" in "Manual" is capitalized). > >Controllers have their own jargon for describing these situations. I doubt >that the general public would recognize the terms "range ring", "deal", >"snitch", "seven mile club", and "system fault." However, I did once hear a >controller say "two airliners got a close look at each other." > > - Jim Landau -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 23:12:11 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:12:11 EDT Subject: Ezra Kendall's SPOTS OF WIT AND HUMOR (1899) Message-ID: SPOTS OF WIT AND HUMOR AS TOLD BY EZRA KENDALL Helman Taylor Co. Cleveland, Ohio 1899 A gem. This book sold over 250,000 copies. Ezra Kendall's next book, GOOD GRAVY, sold over 300,000 copies. Pg. 21: Have you ever been down to Coney Island? (...) Did you try any of th' games down there--th' one where you throw th' base balls at th' babies--and every time you hit a baby on th' head you get a good cigar? I couldn't hit one. ("Close, but no cigar"--ed.) Pg. 34: If I'd stayed there I'd been broke myself. She says, "If you want change try the baker next door, he always has th' dough." Pg. 69: I says, "Your money or your wife." "Why, go ahead and take her," he says, "and save me alimony." I says, "Hold on, I'm a little rattled. It's your money or your life." (Jack Benny is thinking about it--ed.) (The following "Fruit and Vegetable Handicap" is useful perhaps for "Big Apple" in horseracing. This routine was probably a horseracing cliche in the early 1900s--ed.) Pg. 66: The next race was a sort of (Pg. 67--ed.) Fruit and Vegetable Handicap. In th' paddock, before th' race, I heard one of th' trainers say to a jockey, "Water Melon, and warm up Potatoes." "I'd like to win a stake with Mushrooms, but," he says, "If that California pair gets ahead of Lettuce you'll see Sugar beat." "Of all th' string, Beans is th' best; Asparagrass tips are no good." When th' race was being run I was in th' pool room, listening to th' telegraph operator. He says, "They're off--Grape's in th' bunch." Th' man next to me must have had Grapes, for th' minute he heard "Grapes" he had gripes. And Grapes in th' bunch (Pg. 68--ed.) was enough to give a man gripes in th' bunch. Then th' operator went on, "Onions coming strong; Skin on th' outside; Raddish wins--pulled up." And th' judges scolded th' jockey for pulling up th' horse--Raddish. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Sep 28 23:35:05 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:35:05 EDT Subject: Confessions of a Twentieth Century Hobo (1924) Message-ID: CONFESSIONS OF A TWENTIETH CENTURY HOBO by "Digit" Herbert Jenkins, Limited, London 1924 A British man tramps the U. S. Pg. 11: AUTHOR'S NOTE Some of the words, phrases, etc., used in the following narrative will probably be meaningless to the average English reader. For their benefit, I explain a few of those most frequently used. _Bud, buddy_...Friend, chum, or mate. _Bum_...Beggar, cadger. _Booked for vag._...Charged with vagabondage. _Bat out of hell_...A popular hobo expression, meaning a train moving very rapidly. _Banana Limited,_ _Extra, Manifest_...Types of freight trains. _Bull, dick_...Plain-clothes detectives. _Chain gang_...Group of convicts. _Drummer_...Travelling salesman. _Eleven, twenty-nine, twenty-three_...A favourite sentence of some judges, meaning eleven months, twenty-nine days, twenty-three hours. In some states one loses one's citizenship by a year in jail. _Flivver_...Ford automobile. _Goofie_...Silly. _Highball_...The two short, sharp whistles from the engine after the "all clear" has been given--usually a sign that the train is going to pick up speed. _Hootch, moonshine_...Home-made atrocities for whisky. _Hobo_...A tramp. (Pg. 12--ed.) _Hit the hay_...Go to bed. _Jungle up_...Bovouac in the weeds and clean up generally. _Limey_...The Southern term for a Britisher. _Lock you up and turn you loose_...It is common for hobos to go to the police or sheriff and ask to be locked up for the night. Usually the officials let them out in the morning, and sometimes give them some breakfast. _Once over_...To inspect. To look at thoroughly. _Rattler_...A freight train. _Reefer_...A refrigerator box car for perishable goods with an ice-box at each end. _Ride the cushions_...Travel by passenger train in the orthodox manner. _Rock-pile_...State highways or work. _Slim_...Tall, thin men are invariably called Slim. _Stemming_...Begging, cadging. _State License_...State number-plates on cars. Each state has its own coloured plate changed annually. _Step on her_...A common expression among motorists, meaning to press one's foot on the accelerator. _Snowbird_...(1) A drug addict. (2) In the Southern States a Northerner who migrates south to avoid the winter. _The law_...A policeman. _Truck_...Motor lorry. _Two, four, or six bits_...Twenty-five, fifty, and seventy-five cents. _The makings_...Cigarette-papers and tobacco. _Tailor-mades_...Ordinary ready-made cigarettes. Pg. 60: "In God we trust, All others--CASH." (A drawing of this sign is on page 61--ed.) Pg. 62: "Great suffering doughnuts!" Pg. 173: "Suffering doughnuts!" (Why do doughnuts suffer so?--ed.) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Sep 29 00:27:52 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 20:27:52 EDT Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" Message-ID: In a message dated 09/28/2001 6:59:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > Hope ya'll know what a Johnson Bar is; hate to use technical terms. A "Johnson bar" controls the amount and direction of the steam that enters the cylinders in a steam locomotive. (As a steam locomotive speeds up, the amount of steam per stroke has to be changed. As for direction, the Johnson bar also controls whether the locomotive moves forward or back). The Johnson bar works by rearranging the pivot points of the rods and levers that connect the cylinders with the wheels. If you can conjure up even a vague image of a steam locomotive and realize how big those rods are, you can easily understand that the Johnson bar has to be a substantical piece of ironmongery. Earnest K. Gann in one of his books mentions an airplane which had a sizable lever in the cockpit that was referred to, for reasons Mr. Gann never understood, as a Johnson bar. (As best as I can recall, it was "Band of Brothers", the Ford Tri-Motor, and the lever controlled the brakes when the plane was on the ground.) Apparently somebody who was familiar with the inside of a steam locomotive found that that lever reminded him of a Johnson bar. The OED2 has Johnson bar as "US, origin unknown" with the first cite from 1930 and an incomplete definition that describes it only as the reversing lever, not as the device that also controlled the amount of steam allowed per stroke. There is a 1971 citation as the emergency brake handle on a truck (presumably, like the Gann cite above, from the size or shape of the thing.) A magazine article I once read said, or maybe admitted to theorizing, that the original term was "jouncing bar" ("jouncin' bar") because it jounced around. - Jim Landau P.S. The OED2 has "near miss" (under near, adjective) with 2 naval citations from 1940, several citations in which the term appears to mean only "close but missed safely", one citation reading "...a lot of bomb damage to repair from a near miss..." implying that this near miss caused considerable damage, and oh yes a 1973 quote about airplanes having near misses. From prez234 at JUNO.COM Sat Sep 29 01:08:03 2001 From: prez234 at JUNO.COM (Joseph McCollum) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 09:08:03 +0800 Subject: Medjugorje? Message-ID: A Catholic friend forwarded me the message of September 25th from Medjugorje. Apparently, the name of the town means "between the hills." I had conjectured that the -jugo- part might mean "south," Jugoslavia (or Yugoslavia) is loosely "the land of the Southern Slavs," but then there isn't much left over for "between the hills." Any ideas? -- From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Sep 29 02:51:56 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:51:56 -0500 Subject: Medjugorje? Message-ID: I don't have my Serbo-Croatian dictionary at hand, but I see generally what is going on with Medjugorje: 1) Medju = between (cf. Russian mezhdu = between) 2) gorje --related to Russian gora (= mountain; appears, incidentally, in the name Pyatigorsky = pertaining to five mountains; pyat' = five). The root in gorje, gora is gor-. ---Gerald Cohen >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 >From: Joseph McCollum >Subject: Medjugorje? >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >A Catholic friend forwarded me the message of September 25th from Medjugorje. > >Apparently, the name of the town means "between the hills." > >I had conjectured that the -jugo- part might mean "south," >Jugoslavia (or Yugoslavia) is loosely "the land of the Southern >Slavs," but then there isn't much left over for "between the hills." > >Any ideas? > > > > > > >-- From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Sep 29 12:06:06 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 08:06:06 -0400 Subject: bursting out~outbursting Message-ID: In the last 12 hours I've heard outbursting as in "The contents were outbursting;" rather than bursting out uprising as in "Those discontented people are uprising;" rather than rising up. Can anyone give me a lead to further discussion of this phenomenon in the archives. I seem to recall this being discussed before. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Sat Sep 29 12:55:45 2001 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:55:45 -0500 Subject: johnson bar Message-ID: Also the name of a heavy lever used to remove railroad spikes and moving heavy equipment, from there, the concept of a heavy bar, quickly became in slang another name for a penis, as in "I showed her my really big johnson" , "James A. Landau" wrote: > > In a message dated 09/28/2001 6:59:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > > > Hope ya'll know what a Johnson Bar is; hate to use technical terms. > > From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Sep 29 14:00:58 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:00:58 -0400 Subject: "Pre-owned,""near miss," "s/he" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Of course, all these apparently good definitions miss the one most commonly in use when I was young; when you wanted to tease a mechanically-ignorant neophyte (especially in auto mechanics) or if you just wanted to speculate out loud to knowing fellows when you didn't know what the hell was going on, you very frequently expressed doubt about the "Johnson bar." "Hey, sounds like the Johnson bar is loose in your old lemon, Fred." If Fred knew the game (and especially if there were neophytes around), he would 'low as how he'd have his Johnson bar looked at. If Fred was one of those being teased, he might express real concern about his Johnson bar, to the delight of all us mechnincally sophisticated (although we were rapidly becoming unsophisticated as overhead valve engines and automatic tramsissions were passing us by). dInIs dInIs >In a message dated 09/28/2001 6:59:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > >> Hope ya'll know what a Johnson Bar is; hate to use technical terms. > >A "Johnson bar" controls the amount and direction of the steam that enters >the cylinders in a steam locomotive. (As a steam locomotive speeds up, the >amount of steam per stroke has to be changed. As for direction, the Johnson >bar also controls whether the locomotive moves forward or back). > >The Johnson bar works by rearranging the pivot points of the rods and levers >that connect the cylinders with the wheels. If you can conjure up even a >vague image of a steam locomotive and realize how big those rods are, you can >easily understand that the Johnson bar has to be a substantical piece of >ironmongery. > >Earnest K. Gann in one of his books mentions an airplane which had a sizable >lever in the cockpit that was referred to, for reasons Mr. Gann never >understood, as a Johnson bar. (As best as I can recall, it was "Band of >Brothers", the Ford Tri-Motor, and the lever controlled the brakes when the >plane was on the ground.) Apparently somebody who was familiar with the >inside of a steam locomotive found that that lever reminded him of a Johnson >bar. > >The OED2 has Johnson bar as "US, origin unknown" with the first cite from >1930 and an incomplete definition that describes it only as the reversing >lever, not as the device that also controlled the amount of steam allowed per >stroke. There is a 1971 citation as the emergency brake handle on a truck >(presumably, like the Gann cite above, from the size or shape of the thing.) > >A magazine article I once read said, or maybe admitted to theorizing, that >the original term was "jouncing bar" ("jouncin' bar") because it jounced >around. > > - Jim Landau > >P.S. The OED2 has "near miss" (under near, adjective) with 2 naval citations >from 1940, several citations in which the term appears to mean only "close >but missed safely", one citation reading "...a lot of bomb damage to repair >from a near miss..." implying that this near miss caused considerable damage, >and oh yes a 1973 quote about airplanes having near misses. -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Sep 29 14:04:09 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:04:09 -0400 Subject: Medjugorje? In-Reply-To: <20010929010803.28605.qmail@juno.com> Message-ID: Reckon you're cutting your morphemes in the wrong place. You're finding a "jugo" where there ain't none. The "Medju-" part is the "between" or "middle,' and the "gorje" part is mountains or hills. dInIs >A Catholic friend forwarded me the message of September 25th from Medjugorje. > >Apparently, the name of the town means "between the hills." > >I had conjectured that the -jugo- part might mean "south," >Jugoslavia (or Yugoslavia) is loosely >"the land of the Southern Slavs," but then there isn't much left >over for "between the hills." > >Any ideas? > > > > > > >-- -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From pds at VISI.COM Sat Sep 29 15:33:08 2001 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:33:08 -0500 Subject: box cutter illustrated In-Reply-To: Message-ID: These pictures are very helpful. My idea of a utility knife is represented by item #100, although I also have a retractable version. FWIW, my local Ace Hardware has an item much like the illustrated box cutters. They are called "snap knives", presumably because portions of the blade can be easily broken off after they become dull. --Tom Kysilko At 08:24 AM 9/27/2001 -0400, Frank Abate wrote: > >The following web page, from a company that sells box cutters, has >illustrations. The first, third, and last items depicted are box cutters. >Please note that the first and third pictures show a protective sleeve >covering the cutting edge of the blade. Also, the illustrations, from the >side, do not show the thinness of the items. > >The same page has a link to "utility knives": > >http://www.themodernspecialtiescompany.com/cutters/cutters.html From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Sep 29 17:47:11 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:47:11 EDT Subject: CPL response on "Windy City" Message-ID: This is actually pretty interesting as a discussion of the total imperviousness of folk culture to linguistic reality. Dennis Preston: Is it too late to add a chapter to HANDBOOK OF PERCEPTUAL DIALECTOLOGY II? In a message dated 9/28/2001 3:28:33 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: << The Chicago Public Library responded on "Windy City." "Windy City" is explained in _two_ places on the CPL web site. They are correcting the place where it says that Charles A. Dana "coined" the term. However, the other explanation must also be corrected. Charles A. Dana didn't even "popularize" the term. SPORTING LIFE had "Windy City" in a list of city nicknames in 1886. It is wrong to state that "Windy City" comes from early 19th-century Chicago boosterism. No one seems to be bothered that there is not one single citation to support this. Chicago's wind was known for a long time ("windy city of Chicago" was in 1880s PUCK). However, I did extensive checking of the 1884 political conventions in Chicago, and "Windy City" was _not_ used. It was not until the Chicago Tribune's extensive pushing of Chicago's summer breeze making it an excellent summer resort (later explained by the Tribune on September 11, 1886) that the city nickname came to be applied. The Chicago Tribune still won't respond to me. Write to their Public Editor (Don Wycliff at dwycliff at tribune.com) and try for yourself. --Barry Popik Bapopik at aol.com >> From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Sep 29 17:51:47 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:51:47 EDT Subject: double possessives Message-ID: Beautiful--thanks so much for the example. Of course, the fact that people use the construction regularly will not convince some formalist linguists that it is "grammatical." In a message dated 9/28/2001 3:22:48 PM, TlhovwI at AOL.COM writes: << How's this for a true double possesive: "Is that your my hoodie or my your hoodie?" meaning... Is that my hoodie that you have stolen from me or your hoodie that I had stolen from you [that you are wearing]? My roommate said this this morning and it is a common construction for objects 'borrowed'. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Southern Illinois University - Carbondale >> From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Sep 29 18:10:25 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:10:25 -0400 Subject: CPL response on "Windy City" In-Reply-To: <4f.11ff437e.28e7631f@aol.com> Message-ID: Volume II is in bed; we need someone to write an article called something like "Barry's Woes: Or How the Real World Doesn't Give a Whack about Where Words, Names, Phrases, and the Like Really Came From." I promise it a home (and I would be delighted to supervise an MA thesis on just those Barry tales). dInIs >This is actually pretty interesting as a discussion of the total >imperviousness of folk culture to linguistic reality. Dennis Preston: Is it >too late to add a chapter to HANDBOOK OF PERCEPTUAL DIALECTOLOGY II? > > >In a message dated 9/28/2001 3:28:33 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > ><< The Chicago Public Library responded on "Windy City." > > "Windy City" is explained in _two_ places on the CPL web site. They are >correcting the place where it says that Charles A. Dana "coined" the term. > > However, the other explanation must also be corrected. Charles A. Dana >didn't even "popularize" the term. SPORTING LIFE had "Windy City" in a list >of city nicknames in 1886. > > It is wrong to state that "Windy City" comes from early 19th-century >Chicago boosterism. No one seems to be bothered that there is not one single >citation to support this. > > Chicago's wind was known for a long time ("windy city of Chicago" was in >1880s PUCK). However, I did extensive checking of the 1884 political >conventions in Chicago, and "Windy City" was _not_ used. It was not until >the Chicago Tribune's extensive pushing of Chicago's summer breeze making it >an excellent summer resort (later explained by the Tribune on September 11, >1886) that the city nickname came to be applied. > > The Chicago Tribune still won't respond to me. Write to their Public >Editor (Don Wycliff at dwycliff at tribune.com) and try for yourself. > > >--Barry Popik > >Bapopik at aol.com >> -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Sep 29 18:32:58 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:32:58 -0500 Subject: On Barry Popik's successes and frustrations Message-ID: Keep the hanky dry, Dennis. Barry may have encountered some frustration in having his material properly considered by the public, but he has also received some excellent media coverage--a wonderful write-up by Ed Zotti in the _Wall Street Journal_, three fine articles by Gersh Kuntzman in the _NY Post_, full acknowledgment of his work on "the Big Apple" in a letter of mine published by "Dear Abby," and favorable mention once in, yes, William Safire's "On Language" column. But if you'd like to assign one of your M.A. or Ph.D. students a sure-fire interesting thesis-topic, make it: "Barry Popik's Contributions To The Study of the English Lexicon." The source material would be the ads-l messages, Barry's published material, and interviews with various scholars, including Barry himself. In fact, if you limited the topic to, say, Barry's contributions to food terminology, your student would have enough material for a thesis right there. ---Gerald Cohen >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 >From: "Dennis R. Preston" >Subject: Re: CPL response on "Windy City" >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >Volume II is in bed; we need someone to write an article called >something like "Barry's Woes: Or How the Real World Doesn't Give a >Whack about Where Words, Names, Phrases, and the Like Really Came >From." > >I promise it a home (and I would be delighted to supervise an MA >thesis on just those Barry tales). > >dInIs From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Sep 29 18:54:41 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:54:41 -0400 Subject: On Barry Popik's successes and frustrations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, I hope lexicogrpahers will encourage students to follow up on those excellent suggestions. For a poor old dunderheaded sociolingusit like me, however, I like the grubbing around in the interface between what Barry has found out and what sort of reception it has had. (Different strokes.) dInIs > Keep the hanky dry, Dennis. Barry may have encountered some >frustration in having his material properly considered by the public, >but he has also received some excellent media coverage--a wonderful >write-up by Ed Zotti in the _Wall Street Journal_, three fine >articles by Gersh Kuntzman in the _NY Post_, full acknowledgment of >his work on "the Big Apple" in a letter of mine published by "Dear >Abby," and favorable mention once in, yes, William Safire's "On >Language" column. > > But if you'd like to assign one of your M.A. or Ph.D. students a >sure-fire interesting thesis-topic, make it: "Barry Popik's >Contributions To The Study of the English Lexicon." The source >material would be the ads-l messages, Barry's published material, and >interviews with various scholars, including Barry himself. In fact, >if you limited the topic to, say, Barry's contributions to food >terminology, your student would have enough material for a thesis >right there. > >---Gerald Cohen > > >>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 >>From: "Dennis R. Preston" >>Subject: Re: CPL response on "Windy City" >>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> >>Volume II is in bed; we need someone to write an article called >>something like "Barry's Woes: Or How the Real World Doesn't Give a >>Whack about Where Words, Names, Phrases, and the Like Really Came >>From." >> >>I promise it a home (and I would be delighted to supervise an MA >>thesis on just those Barry tales). >> >>dInIs -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Sep 29 20:54:35 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:54:35 -0700 Subject: New word resources Message-ID: Taking a hint from Barry Popik, I carried a notebook while in Hawaii this past week. I found a couple of common words that I thought might be useful to note (ogo and pupu/pupus are at the top of the list), but I would like to check and make sure they aren't already in dictionaries. Where should I check, and can the check be done on the Internet from home? I have found that I can access the OED by using my public library card, but is that the most up-to-date source? Also, are proper nouns of interest? I found a 1923 citation for Menehunes, the plural form of Menehune. According to legend, they are the people who preceded the Polynesians in settling the Hawaiian islands. Benjamin Barrett From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Sep 29 20:56:18 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:56:18 -0700 Subject: More Frenchified? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I heard that at the Kauai Sheraton this past week as well. I thought I had heard incorrectly... Benjamin Barrett > -----Original Message----- > Behalf Of Kim & Rima McKinzey > > On the phone to the reservation person for the Westin > Hotel chain, I > asked if she knew how one got from the airport to the hotel in > question. She said, several times and very clearly, that > I'd have to > talk to the "conseeAIR." > > Could this be because this sounds more French than > concierge? It's a > new one for me. > > Rima From Ittaob at AOL.COM Sat Sep 29 21:16:50 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:16:50 EDT Subject: More Frenchified? Message-ID: In a message dated 9/29/01 5:05:19 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes: << -----Original Message----- > Behalf Of Kim & Rima McKinzey > > On the phone to the reservation person for the Westin > Hotel chain, I > asked if she knew how one got from the airport to the hotel in > question. She said, several times and very clearly, that > I'd have to > talk to the "conseeAIR." > > Could this be because this sounds more French than > concierge? It's a > new one for me. > > Rima >> This is similar to the common (mis)pronunciation of "coup de grace" as "koo de GRAH". There seems to be a widespread misconception among Americans that final French consonant sounds are never pronounced. Steve Boatti From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 29 22:58:10 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:58:10 EDT Subject: Mole Poblano & Gaspacho & Empanada (1839) Message-ID: Coleccion de Recetas de Cosina y Reposteria, del Vso y propiedad del Combento(sic) de Senores Religiosas de N. Me. Pma de la Concepon Ano de 1839, 2 p.l., 150 p., 60 l. front, 4to. I went through this today in the Special Collections division of the NYPL. It's handwritten in Spanish. Mole Poblano is on Page 6, Gaspacho is on Page 25 and Page 33, Empanadas Adobados is on Page 112 and Empanaditas de (?) is on Page 114. OED has Gazpacho (1845), Mole (1890s?), and Empanada (1939). The book is in the "Whitney Cookery collection, ca. 1400-1895." (See catnyp.nypl.org) Seventeen books were donated by Helen Hay Whitney (1875-1944). I went through four others, but they were handwritten and difficult to read. One manuscript on nineteenth century American cookery is a handwritten mess, of very uncertain dating. Most all of the other books are English cookery, from the 17th or 18th century. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Sep 29 23:42:18 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 19:42:18 EDT Subject: Ooley Cow, Keep Your Shirt On (1918); Author! Author! (1916) Message-ID: FORE! by Charles E. Van Loan George H. Doran Company, NY 1918 Charles Van Loan was an excellent writer of sports stories (usually baseball). David Shulman went through most of his novels, but maybe not this one. Shulman said that he found a golf "mulligan" in 1940 and I was looking for that word, but "mulligan" is not here. Pg. 29: Holy jumping Jemima! Pg. 34: So all the eggs are in one basket. Pg. 42: Have a little sense. Keep your shirt on. Pg. 59: Who's the boss here? Who's the Big Finger? Pg. 113: Talk, talk, talk... Pg. 124: "The Major began the gab-fest," said Waddles. Pg. 137: Attaboy! Pg. 179: Shoo! Scat! Mush on! Vamose! Beat it! Hurry up! _Wiki-wiki_! Chop-chop! _Schnell_! Pg. 227: Professional, your grandmother! Pg. 285: Why, say, I bet I can take one hand and outdrive you! _One hand_! (RHHDAS has "Holy cow!" from 1934. This chapter maybe is helpful, maybe not. Is "Holy cow!" in Van Loan's baseball novels?--ed.) Pg. 262: THE OOLEY-COW Pg. 263: The Ooley-cow was the easiest, softest picking that ever strayed from the home pasture. With care and decent treatment he would have lasted a long time and yielded an enormous quantity if nourishment, but Uncle Billy and Old Man Sprott were too greedy. -------------------------------------------------------- GOLF: THE BOOK OF A THOUSAND CHUCKLES by Clare Briggs P. F. Volland & Co., Chicago 1916 "Mulligan" is not here, either, and it's not in THE DUFFER'S HANDBOOK OF GOLF (1926) by Grantland Rice and Clare Briggs. (Clare Briggs was a longtime cartoonist on the New York Herald Tribune.) "Mulligan" probably dates from the 1930s. This book is not paginated: To the Scoffers, the Duffers, and the Golfers, this book is dedicated. "Right in the Pazazas." "I'm all dolled up." The pictures are ours--Loud cries of "Author-Author." From Hixmaddog at AOL.COM Sat Sep 29 23:48:28 2001 From: Hixmaddog at AOL.COM (Steve Hicks) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 19:48:28 EDT Subject: Jackleg Message-ID: Thank all of you for the input on jackleg/jakeleg/jake brakes: the usual mixture of erudition, wisecracks, informed specu- lation, and inimitable "other" that I so love about this list and its contributors. Have at least some good general possibilities in mind now for the derivation of "jackleg" and "jakeleg"...and the latter's merely fortuitous (though Jacobs Manufacturing Company might consider it otherwise) connection to "jake brake." Wondering now what are the parameters for "jackleg" ? As Jonathan Green mentioned, it seems usually applied to "various incompetent, unskilled or unprincipled professionals"...preachers, lawyers, and I believe I've heard doctors so termed. Can't recall an instance of other professions...pharmacists, librarians, etc... it might be applied to, however. On the other hand, "jackleg (car-)mechanic" is well recognized; and again, believe I've heard it of plumbers. So a jackleg (my father's use was that non-specific) can also be blue-collar, I pre- sume ? Finally, Is there included a sense of "self-proclaimed" or "self-taught;" and in the latter case, might a jackleg mechanic (for example) be fully as competent, skilled and principled as Mr. Goodwrench ? Steve Hicks Hicks Information -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 30 00:19:11 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:19:11 EDT Subject: Now You See It... (1903); Soup and Fish (1908) Message-ID: TELL IT TO ME by Ezra Kendall Geifert & Crummel, Cleveland 1903 Kendall's books are about 90 pages each. It's written on one of them that the first three sold over two million copies. Pg. 26: But I stuck to th' "Water wagon"-- Pg. 76: The Stickwell and Stay Plaster Co. (A drawing of this sign, but the text indicates "plaster"=drunk--ed.) Pg. 81: One day, in a "quick lunch" place during th' "rush" hour... Pg. 93: What we did with that sandwich was like a Hermann trick--Now you see it and now you don't-- HOT ASHES by Ezra Kendall J. B. Savage Co., Cleveland 1908 Pg. 68: And you have a different set of cut and dried conversation to go with every suit. (...) One day I went to the races with my dinner suit on and fell asleep--When the usher came around to take a betting order--He woke me up and says--What will it be-- I looked at my clothes and says--Soup and Fish-- When the usher woke me up again he says--What horse do you like in the Hamburger steak-- -------------------------------------------------------- I'LL NEVER BE CURED AND I DON'T MUCH CARE: THE HISTORY OF AN ACUTE ATTACK OF GOLF AND PERTINENT REMARKS RELATING TO VARIOUS PIECES OF TREATMENT by Douglas B. Wesson J. H. Sears & Co., Inc., NY 1928 Also no "mulligan." Pg. 170: No-o-o--you'll do just what I did, you'll accept as truth the old adage, "Spare the turf and spoil the shot"--than which, on my part, was ever anything ever more so? From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sun Sep 30 01:32:12 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:32:12 -0700 Subject: Medjugorje? Message-ID: > A Catholic friend forwarded me the message of September 25th from Medjugorje. > > Apparently, the name of the town means "between the hills." > > I had conjectured that the -jugo- part might mean "south," Jugoslavia (or Yugoslavia) is loosely > "the land of the Southern Slavs," but then there isn't much left over for "between the hills." > > Any ideas? > > > > > > > -- From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sun Sep 30 01:33:55 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:33:55 -0700 Subject: Medjugorje? Message-ID: Joseph: > A Catholic friend forwarded me the message of September 25th from Medjugorje. > > Apparently, the name of the town means "between the hills." > > I had conjectured that the -jugo- part might mean "south," Jugoslavia (or Yugoslavia) is loosely > "the land of the Southern Slavs," but then there isn't much left over for "between the hills." Joseph: YOur first conjecture was right. There isn't anything in the word that would suggest "Yugo"(which is "south" in Slavic languages), but "medju"or its cognates means between in Slavic language. Anne G From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Sun Sep 30 02:09:15 2001 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 22:09:15 EDT Subject: 'gh' in Afghanistan Message-ID: I heard a Pakistani on a radio-call in show refer to Afghanistan and the phoneme after the /f/ was something unusual-- I couldn't tell what. Does anyone know what the 'gh' represents in the native language (s)? Before I heard it I might have guessed it was a voiced velar fricative, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't it. Dale Coye The College of NJ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Sun Sep 30 05:34:11 2001 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 22:34:11 -0700 Subject: jack braking Message-ID: I'm guessing that the meaning of "jack braking" is the same as that for "jake braking" given recently, but I'd like to know if anyone can confirm it. I encountered the term on a sign on a highway in western Oklahoma, miles from anywhere, and couldn't see any particular reason for it other than that the terrain at that point was a roller-coaster series of hills up and down. However, I'm not sure from the description of "jake braking" given why there would be a prohibition against it in such wide-open spaces. I inferred from the description that it might be objected to because of the noise, but this obviously does not apply here. I'm still wondering why it was proscribed in this context. Could it be dangerous? Rudy From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Sep 30 13:19:40 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 09:19:40 -0400 Subject: Jackleg In-Reply-To: <104.9f7da72.28e7b7cc@aol.com> Message-ID: When I was a kid and worked in my parents' paint and wallpaper store, a 'jackleg painter' was a combination of several of the following facts: 1) non-union 2) self-taught 3) unreliable (often suffering from painters' colic, although respected professionals also suggered from this malady) 4) not full-time 5) not skilled (i.e., producing shoddy work, not just failing to appear, failing to pay workers or bills, as is suggested in 3)) 6) worked for less (obviously connected to 1)) In short, it was a "general negative," and any one of these features might have been highlighted in a single instantiation. It would be difficult to say which were the required and which were the optional features for the semantics of it. dInIs PS: Before you ask, "painters' colic" is the need for strong drink after work to cut the paint fumes from your throat. A better excuse than many; at least it fronted a physical rather than psychological need. >Thank all of you for the input on jackleg/jakeleg/jake brakes: >the usual mixture of erudition, wisecracks, informed specu- >lation, and inimitable "other" that I so love about this list and >its contributors. > >Have at least some good general possibilities in mind now >for the derivation of "jackleg" and "jakeleg"...and the latter's >merely fortuitous (though Jacobs Manufacturing Company >might consider it otherwise) connection to "jake brake." > >Wondering now what are the parameters for "jackleg" ? As >Jonathan Green mentioned, it seems usually applied to "various >incompetent, unskilled or unprincipled professionals"...preachers, >lawyers, and I believe I've heard doctors so termed. Can't recall >an instance of other professions...pharmacists, librarians, etc... >it might be applied to, however. > >On the other hand, "jackleg (car-)mechanic" is well recognized; >and again, believe I've heard it of plumbers. So a jackleg (my >father's use was that non-specific) can also be blue-collar, I pre- >sume ? > >Finally, Is there included a sense of "self-proclaimed" or "self-taught;" >and in the latter case, might a jackleg mechanic (for example) be >fully as competent, skilled and principled as Mr. Goodwrench ? > > > > Steve >Hicks > > Hicks >Information -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Sep 30 13:34:37 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 09:34:37 -0400 Subject: Jackleg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Please don't write in about the word "suggered." Just note that the "g" is right next to the "f" on the keyboard. dInIs >When I was a kid and worked in my parents' paint and wallpaper >store, a 'jackleg painter' was a combination of several of the >following facts: > >1) non-union >2) self-taught >3) unreliable (often suffering from painters' colic, although respected > professionals also suggered from this malady) >4) not full-time >5) not skilled (i.e., producing shoddy work, not just failing to >appear, failing > to pay workers or bills, as is suggested in 3)) >6) worked for less (obviously connected to 1)) > >In short, it was a "general negative," and any one of these features >might have been highlighted in a single instantiation. It would be >difficult to say which were the required and which were the optional >features for the semantics of it. > >dInIs > >PS: Before you ask, "painters' colic" is the need for strong drink >after work to cut the paint fumes from your throat. A better excuse >than many; at least it fronted a physical rather than psychological >need. > >>Thank all of you for the input on jackleg/jakeleg/jake brakes: >>the usual mixture of erudition, wisecracks, informed specu- >>lation, and inimitable "other" that I so love about this list and >>its contributors. >> >>Have at least some good general possibilities in mind now >>for the derivation of "jackleg" and "jakeleg"...and the latter's >>merely fortuitous (though Jacobs Manufacturing Company >>might consider it otherwise) connection to "jake brake." >> >>Wondering now what are the parameters for "jackleg" ? As >>Jonathan Green mentioned, it seems usually applied to "various >>incompetent, unskilled or unprincipled professionals"...preachers, >>lawyers, and I believe I've heard doctors so termed. Can't recall >>an instance of other professions...pharmacists, librarians, etc... >>it might be applied to, however. >> >>On the other hand, "jackleg (car-)mechanic" is well recognized; >>and again, believe I've heard it of plumbers. So a jackleg (my >>father's use was that non-specific) can also be blue-collar, I pre- >>sume ? >> >>Finally, Is there included a sense of "self-proclaimed" or "self-taught;" >>and in the latter case, might a jackleg mechanic (for example) be >>fully as competent, skilled and principled as Mr. Goodwrench ? >> >> >> >> Steve >>Hicks >> >> Hicks >>Information > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >Department of Linguistics and Languages >Michigan State University >East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA >preston at pilot.msu.edu >Office: (517)353-0740 >Fax: (517)432-2736 -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Sep 30 01:55:51 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 09:55:51 +0800 Subject: double possessives In-Reply-To: <99.1b63a07a.28e76433@aol.com> Message-ID: At 1:51 PM -0400 9/29/01, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >Beautiful--thanks so much for the example. > >Of course, the fact that people use the construction regularly will not >convince some formalist linguists that it is "grammatical." > Now, wait a minute, Ron. If you're talking about prescriptivists, fine. But some of my best friends are formal linguists (I think that's the same as what you're calling "formalist linguists", but yours sounds more like a slur), and I can't think of any offhand who would respond in the way you predict. When double modals began to be described, formal approaches to syntax undertook to describe the various dialects by tweaking the description in various ways, but nobody dismissed the data as ungrammatical. Yes, if someone says something on a given occasion without "using the construction regularly", it might be treated as a performance error or as performance technique ("playing around" with one's competence), but well attested realities of regional or social variation are usually if not always taken seriously in formal grammatical research, if the researchers are aware of the variants in question. (A more accurate criticism might be that some grammatical researchers--say, someone writing a description of the internal structure of English noun phrases, or determiner phrases, whatever they're being called now--would simply ignore the datum, but I think if you pushed them they would concede that while grammatical, the datum would complicate their analysis--not that it's ungrammatical, but that it provides an unwelcome complication they can't deal with. But this is at least as true for descriptive grammarians like Quirk et al. as it is for theoretical syntacticians who in my experience are often looking for new constructions and complications to write a paper about.) larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Sep 30 02:05:53 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:05:53 +0800 Subject: More Frenchified? In-Reply-To: <14d.1c6bbc6.28e79442@aol.com> Message-ID: At 5:16 PM -0400 9/29/01, Ittaob at AOL.COM wrote: >In a message dated 9/29/01 5:05:19 PM, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes: > ><< -----Original Message----- >> Behalf Of Kim & Rima McKinzey >> >> On the phone to the reservation person for the Westin >> Hotel chain, I >> asked if she knew how one got from the airport to the hotel in >> question. She said, several times and very clearly, that >> I'd have to >> talk to the "conseeAIR." >> >> Could this be because this sounds more French than >> concierge? It's a >> new one for me. >> >> Rima >> > >This is similar to the common (mis)pronunciation of "coup de grace" as "koo >de GRAH". There seems to be a widespread misconception among Americans that >final French consonant sounds are never pronounced. > >Steve Boatti Please let's not go around on this again. This was the point we raised less than two weeks ago when the topic first came up. My posting in response to Rima's observation from 9/21: ============ I'm sure it is. The hyper-Frenchification I've noticed most often is "COO D'GRAH" for coup de grace. The rule seems to be "don't pronounce the last consonant", period. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Sep 30 02:16:18 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:16:18 +0800 Subject: Jackleg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:19 AM -0400 9/30/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >When I was a kid and worked in my parents' paint and wallpaper >store, a 'jackleg painter' was a combination of several of the >following facts: > >1) non-union >2) self-taught >3) unreliable ... When *I* was a kid (in NYC) we didn't know from jacklegs (jackknives, yes, but not jacklegs), but in at least one traditional song a 'jackleg miner' satisfies just one criterion, your (1), with the further implication 'employed as a strike-breaker: = scab' larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Sep 30 15:36:42 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:36:42 EDT Subject: Jackleg Message-ID: In a message dated 09/30/2001 9:11:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > When I was a kid and worked in my parents' paint and wallpaper store, > a 'jackleg painter' was a combination of several of the following > facts: > > 1) non-union > 2) self-taught > 3) unreliable (often suffering from painters' colic, although respected > professionals also suggered from this malady) > 4) not full-time > 5) not skilled (i.e., producing shoddy work, not just failing to > appear, failing to pay workers or bills, as is suggested in 3)) > 6) worked for less (obviously connected to 1)) > > In short, it was a "general negative," and any one of these features > might have been highlighted in a single instantiation. In the fall of 1966 an acquaintance of mine boasted to me that he was "a good jackleg psychologist." He meant it as self-promotion, of course. In fact the only thing he was good at was self-promotion---his advice was generally bad and I personally am convinced hurt the scholastic careers of several fellow students. In other words, he was unintentially being truthful about meeting criteria 3) and 5) above. The point however is that "jackleg psychologist" could and did have a positive meaning. Don't forget that there is in US culture a large set of legends of the basement inventor, the skilled pioneer, the amateur who shows up the experts. This is not a myth---many many examples can be cited of each. Conclusion: "jackleg" can be either negative (as Dennis Preston cites above) or positive, depending on context. - Jim Landau P.S. I thought "instantiation" was a word used only by computer programmers, but M-W cites "instantiate" as from 1949. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 30 16:55:28 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:55:28 EDT Subject: Detroit, Pittsburgh get "Windy City" wrong! Message-ID: This is amazing. I did my "Windy City" work five years ago. It's wrong again today. Any good suggestions on what I should do? From a check of the Dow Jones database: How the Windy City Got its Name Gerry Volgenau, Detroit Free Press 9-30-2001 Pittsburgh Post Gazette, E-6 Yes, Chicago is windy, especially in the loop. But the nickname "Windy City" dates to 1890, when Chicago was vying with New York for the 1892 World's Fair. "Don't pay attention to the nonsensical claims of that windy city," said Charles Dana, editor of the New York Sun, speaking of Chicago's blowhard politicians. "Its people," Dana wrote, couldn't build a World's Fair if they won it." As it turned out, Chicago did win the World's Fair, but the name stuck. From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Sep 30 17:23:06 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:23:06 -0400 Subject: 'gh' in Afghanistan Message-ID: If I may offer a conjecture in its purest form, since Persian is allied to Sanskrit, the "gh" could be a transliteration of the fourth letter in the first row of the Devanagari grid (k, kh, g, gh, ng), hence a velar aspirate, i.e., if I recall Grade 5 correctly. Monier-Williams illustrates this sound with "loghut," but does that do justice to the syllable boundary? Any Persian scholars among us? Dale Coye wrote: > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: 7bit From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 30 19:32:31 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 15:32:31 EDT Subject: Swell Foop (Gracie Allen?); Marina Sauce (1946) Message-ID: FELL SWOOP/SWELL FOOP From Clementine Paddleford in the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 7 January 1946, pg. 13, col. 6: "SWELL FOOP"--Joyce Staruch, Mrs. George jr. to be exact, held open house a week ago Sunday so that her returned captain husband could say hello again to his old friends in one "swell foop," to borrow from Gracie Allen. --------------------------------------------------------MARINA SAUCE From the NYHT, 5 January 1946, pg. 9, col. 5: The foundation of this kitchen's cuisine is olive oil, garlic and marina sauce. What's marina sauce? Olive oil and garlic with tomato added, all cooked down together to a thick jelly goodness. ("Marinara sauce was added" appears lower in the same column. A typo?...I'm trying to stay away from newspaper editors and sharp objects today--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Sep 30 07:34:25 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 15:34:25 +0800 Subject: Ezra Kendall's SPOTS OF WIT AND HUMOR (1899) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:12 PM -0400 9/28/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >SPOTS OF WIT AND HUMOR >AS TOLD BY EZRA KENDALL >Helman Taylor Co. >Cleveland, Ohio >1899 > >... > >(The following "Fruit and Vegetable Handicap" is useful perhaps for >"Big Apple" in horseracing. This routine was probably a horseracing >cliche in the early 1900s--ed.) > >Pg. 66: > The next race was a sort of (Pg. 67--ed.) Fruit and Vegetable Handicap. > In th' paddock, before th' race, I heard one of th' trainers say >to a jockey, "Water Melon, and warm up Potatoes." > "I'd like to win a stake with Mushrooms, but," he says, "If that >California pair gets ahead of Lettuce you'll see Sugar beat." > "Of all th' string, Beans is th' best; > Asparagrass tips are no good." > When th' race was being run I was in th' pool room, listening to >th' telegraph operator. > He says, "They're off--Grape's in th' bunch." Th' man next to >me must have had Grapes, for th' minute he heard "Grapes" he had >gripes. And Grapes in th' bunch (Pg. 68--ed.) was enough to give a >man gripes in th' bunch. > Then th' operator went on, "Onions coming strong; Skin on th' >outside; Raddish wins--pulled up." > And th' judges scolded th' jockey for pulling up th' horse--Raddish. The classic version of this is the Spike Jones patter. Not original, as the above makes it clear, but a lot more polished. larry From rwbailey at UMICH.EDU Sun Sep 30 20:59:14 2001 From: rwbailey at UMICH.EDU (Richard W. Bailey) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 16:59:14 -0400 Subject: Change in Present-Day American English Message-ID: I am attempting to make a list of changes in progress right now, particularly phonological ones. My purpose is to provide a foundation for people teaching American English or HEL, and students love to find that they and their neighbors speak differently from one another. Could you please reply to me directly (and not to the list solely): rwbailey at umich.edu From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Sep 30 21:25:11 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 16:25:11 -0500 Subject: Detroit, Pittsburgh get "Windy City" wrong! Message-ID: Barry asks "What should I do?" My suggestion is to have a compilation of Barry's "Windy City" treatments appear in an issue of my "Comments on Etymology" (elsewhere would be okay too). Then, when a newspaper presents the wrong etymology, an ads-l member (say, Allan Metcalf, Sheidlower, or I) could send the errant journalist a copy of the compiled "Windy City" treatment with a brief cover letter. I'll start the compilation myself and give Barry a holler if I'm missing anything. ---Gerald Cohen On an unrelated note, can anyone provide me the dates of Minna Irving, who wrote the poem "Betsy's Battle Flag" (possibly of relevance to "Heavens to Betsy"). I'm having trouble locating those dates and the date she wrote "Betsy's Battle Flag." Ads-l member Jan Ivarsson once gave her dates as 1857-1940, but in an Internet search I found (but can't locate again) 1872 as her birth date. Fred Shapiro has found an 1878 attestation of "Heavens to Betsy," and so if Minna Irving was in fact born in 1872, that would rule out her poem as having contributed to the start of "Heavens to Betsy." >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 >From: Bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: Detroit, Pittsburgh get "Windy City" wrong! >Comments: cc: dwycliff at tribune.com, ombudsman at cbc.ca, refdesk at chipublib.org >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > This is amazing. > I did my "Windy City" work five years ago. It's wrong again >today. Any good suggestions on what I should do? > From a check of the Dow Jones database: > >How the Windy City Got its Name >Gerry Volgenau, Detroit Free Press > >9-30-2001 >Pittsburgh Post Gazette, E-6 > > Yes, Chicago is windy, especially in the loop. > But the nickname "Windy City" dates to 1890, when Chicago was >vying with New York for the 1892 World's Fair. > "Don't pay attention to the nonsensical claims of that windy >city," said Charles Dana, editor of the New York Sun, speaking of >Chicago's blowhard politicians. > "Its people," Dana wrote, couldn't build a World's Fair if they won it." > As it turned out, Chicago did win the World's Fair, but the name stuck. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 30 21:42:02 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:42:02 EDT Subject: A Winner Never Quits; Tin Pan Alley; Gray Lady Message-ID: CORRECTION: "Fell Swoop" should be page 15, not page 13. The copy was difficult to read. -------------------------------------------------------- A WINNER NEVER QUITS, AND A QUITTER NEVER WINS (continued) From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 2 February 1946, pg. 16, col. 1: _"A Winner Never Quits"_ (...) "You know, said Gabby (Street, a boxing manager--ed.), a great man for quoting proverbs, "a quitter never wins and a winner never quits. And this Watkins is a winner." -------------------------------------------------------- TIN PAN ALLEY (continued) From the NYHT, 11 January 1946, pg. 18, col. 3: _Harry von Tolzer Dies at 73;_ _Wrote Hundreds of Song Hits_ ---------------------------- _Coiner of Phrase "Tin Pan_ _Alley" Was Author and_ _Publisher Here Since '92_ (He was famous, certainly. He possibly coined it, but my early "Tin Pan Alley" cites don't give anyone credit--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- GRAY LADY (continued) The New York Times is the Old Gray Lady. The NYHT, 31 January 1946, pg. 22, col. 8, describes a "Red Cross Gray Lady." A possible influence? -------------------------------------------------------- BEEFSTEAK CHARLIE A New York trade name, but see also my work on the older "Champagne Charlie." From the NYHT, 25 January 1946, pg. 16, col. 5: _Charles Chessar Dies at 77;_ _Original "Beefsteak Charlie"_ (...) The steak house for twenty years after World War I, with its old brown bar, red-backed chairs and the high walls papered with the pictures of horses and "spills," was a meeting place for track followers. It was known, too, for twelve-egg lemon meringue pies, for steaks juicy and large. -------------------------------------------------------- ANY WAY THE WIND BLOWS, DOESN'T REALLY MATTER TO ME... I'd previously posted the Chicago Tribune errors of June 2001, and then August 4, 2001 ("Ask Tom Why"). There were THREE. THREE! The third--after I'd complained to the Public Editor at least twice--is by far the worst. It states that "Windy City" was coined _during_ the 1893 fair! From the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, 23 August 2001, section 2, pg. 10. col. 2: _WEATHER WORD_ Windy City: In 1893, New York Sun editor Charles Dana, tired of hearing Chicagoans boasting of the huge success of Chicago's 1893 World's Columbian Exposition, dubbed Chicago the "Windy City." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Sep 30 21:52:48 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:52:48 EDT Subject: Tin Pan Alley Message-ID: Harry von TILZER, of "Down Where the Wursburger Flows," "Wait Till the Sun Shines Nellie" "A Bird in a Gilded Cage" "I Want a Girl Just Like the Girl Who Married Dear Old Dad" I noticed some more, important stuff, later in the two-column obituary. From the NYHT, 11 January 1946, pg. 18, col. 3: A newspaper reporter, Monroe H. Rosenfeld, found Mr. Von Tilzer playing one day on a piano muted with newspaper stuck between the keys and the strings, and asked, "What kind of a tin pan do you call that?" Mr. Von Tilzer laughed and said, "This street must sound like a tin-pan alley with so many pianos making such a din." The reporter called his story, "Tin-Pan Alley," and the name stuck. ("Silicon Alley" was named by New York Sun editor Charles A. Dana in 1893, just beating T. A. Dorgan to the punch--ed.) From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Sep 30 23:24:00 2001 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:24:00 -0400 Subject: Tin Pan Alley In-Reply-To: <8b.cf1d1d3.28e8ee30@aol.com> Message-ID: On 9/30/01 17:52, "Bapopik at AOL.COM" wrote: > A newspaper reporter, Monroe H. Rosenfeld, found Mr. Von Tilzer playing one > day on a piano muted with newspaper stuck between the keys and the strings, > and asked, "What kind of a tin pan do you call that?" Mr. Von Tilzer laughed > and said, "This street must sound like a tin-pan alley with so many pianos > making such a din." The reporter called his story, "Tin-Pan Alley," and the > name stuck. Why do stories giving dubious credit to someone for coining a word or phrase always seem to end with "...and the name stuck"? -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Sep 30 23:23:42 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 18:23:42 -0500 Subject: Heavens to Betsy; and thanx Message-ID: My thanx go to George Cole for his reply to my query on Minna Irving, which I now share with ads-l (below my signoff) And yes, the 1878 "Heavens to Betsy" comes from Making of America. Fred Shapiro had written: > "OED2's first use for "Heavens to Betsy/Betsey" is dated >1892. Making of America yields the following earlier example: >'1878 Harper's New Monthly Mag. Sept. 582 "Heavens-to-Betsy! You > don't think I ever see a copper o' her cash, do ye?'" Although Minna Irving's poem "Betsy's Battle Flag" is now removed as a possible influence on the start of "Heavens to Betsy," I still think it's possible that Betsy Ross might have inspired the exclamation. Like "Goodness gracious me" (probably elliptical for "May Goodness (i.e., God) be gracious to me)," "Heavens to Betsy" might have been elliptical for "May the heavens be gracious to Betsy." Betsy Ross has long been a cherished figure in the history of the Revolution, and she suffered sufficient hardship in her life to deserve special consideration from heaven.The Betsy Ross homepage (http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/index.html) says: "The story of Betsy Ross's Life is one of triumph through adversity. She was disowned by the Quakers [for marrying outside the faith]. She lost one husband to an explosion at a munitions depot that he was guarding. Her second husband died in a British prison. She survived her third husband, who was sick for many years. She had seven daughters, two of whom died in infancy. She maintained a business through it all. By the way, her pew was next to George Washington's at Christ Church." ---Gerald Cohen >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 18:35:34 -0400 >From: GSCole To: Gerald Cohen >Subject: ..Irving b. date?.. > >I found the following site, which lists Minna Irving as being born in >1872 (b. 1872). Hope that it is of use. > >As for the 1878 attestation of "Heavens to Betsy", my presumption is >that it is the September 1878 item, available at MOA-Cornell. If not, >please let me know. > >George Cole > >http://cgibin.erols.com/kfraser/union/postwar/marching.html From funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM Sun Sep 30 23:12:01 2001 From: funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM (Jordan Rich) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:12:01 -0400 Subject: johnson bar In-Reply-To: <3BB5C4D1.5E224DB6@mtnhome.com> Message-ID: At 07:55 AM 9/29/01 -0500, you wrote: >Also the name of a heavy lever used to remove railroad spikes and moving >heavy equipment, from there, the concept of a heavy bar, quickly became >in slang another name for a penis, as in "I showed her my really big >johnson" , A revelation for me as I had heard/read? that the boxer Jack Johnson's sexual exploits was the origination of this usage. Jordan