From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  1 00:26:47 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 20:26:47 EDT
Subject: "Telecommuting" from 1973
Message-ID: <FRI.31.MAY.2002.202647.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 05/31/2002 7:21:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
lists at MCFEDRIES.COM writes:

> Interndisciplinary Program

If someone had disciplined Monica Lewinsky, I wonder how much difference it
would have made to the Clinton administration.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  1 00:32:27 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 20:32:27 EDT
Subject: Hollywood Harry
Message-ID: <FRI.31.MAY.2002.203227.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

HOLLYWOOD HARRY

   In today's (Friday's) NEW YORK POST, the split between Woody Allen and his
former producer is detailed.  Allen's lawyers allege that the producer
skimmed money from Allen.
   The producer's lawyer claims that Allen's lawyers are a bunch of
"Hollywood Harrys."
   That isn't in the RHHDAS or in CDS.  The speaker was probably thinking of
Neil Simon's award-winning LOST IN YONKERS, which has a character named
Hollywood Harry.
   HOLLYWOOD HARRY is also the name of a 1985 film.
   Anywhere else?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
Boy, this was fast.  How come the Chicago Historical Society couldn't do this
six years ago?

Subj:   Naming The Windy City
Date:   5/31/2002 6:28:35 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   <A HREF="mailto:see at islandnet.com">see at islandnet.com</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
Sent from the Internet (Details)



Hello All,

I just completed an interesting new account of the origin of Chicago's
nickname "The Windy City".

You can find it at:
http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/history/chicago-nickname.htm

Rainbows!
Keith
--
Keith C. Heidorn, PhD
The Weather Doctor

Spectrum Educational Enterprises: http://www.islandnet.com/~see/
304-3220 Quadra St, Victoria, British Columbia Canada V8X 1G3
(250) 388-7847  email: see at islandnet.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun  1 00:44:29 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 20:44:29 -0400
Subject: "toke the wild hair" -- Query
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.20020531182625.131fda22@idirect.ca>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.MAY.2002.204429.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:26 PM -0400 5/31/02, James McIntosh wrote:
>Bill Smith ---
>
>At 04:25 PM 5/31/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>Has no one noticed that "toke" meant "inhale marijuana", as in Jan and
>>Dean's (I think) song "One toke over the line"?
>>Bill
>
>I doubt that it was Jan and Dean.
>Maybe Brewer and Shipley.
>
...Sweet Jesus.

It was the latter pair.

Larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun  1 05:03:35 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 01:03:35 -0400
Subject: Amush
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020531144021.023b4c70@nb.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUN.2002.010335.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here is the total text of my e-mail request to a highly respected local
geek/savant for consultation:

<<Do you recognize the word "amush"? Maybe it's some kind of jargon. Google
gets ~400 hits; some are errors for "ambush", some are apparently giving a
salutation or something in Hebrew, others I don't know.>>

Note that I provided no quotation or context.

My consultant responds:

<<The first thing I thought upon reading your question was "amush ?=?
amuck". ... Well, a MUSH is similar to a MUCK... Multi-User Shared
Hallucination vs. [Multi-User] Created Kingdom ([both] likely backronymic).
... many of the first hits I turned up on Google were for AuroraMUSH or
something hosted under their domain, amush.cx.>>

It seems that both MUSH and MUCK refer to virtual environments largely used
for role-playing games. I guess "muck" is semantically similar to "mush"
... wait, maybe there's a "MUD" too? Yes, it looks like there is, the
ancestor probably: Google estimates ~66,000 hits for "mud multi-user":
apparently "MUD" = "multi-user dungeon" or "multi-user dimension", dating
from *really* ancient times (ca. 1980, *well* before my consultant's birth):

http://www.apocalypse.org/pub/u/lpb/muddex/

Amusing, although of questionable relevance to Michael Quinion's question.
In 21st-century geography, I believe Pennsylvania and Yorkshire are
adjacent/congruent, and both closely related to Christmas Island (the
notional location of "amush.cx"). Perhaps the age of the user of the
mystery expression might be of interest.

-- Doug Wilson


From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU  Sat Jun  1 05:40:58 2002
From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 00:40:58 -0500
Subject: Amush
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020601000647.023b0b90@nb.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUN.2002.004058.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Do they use the vowel in look or the vowel in luck?
dmlance

on 6/1/02 12:03 AM, Douglas G. Wilson at douglas at NB.NET wrote:

> Here is the total text of my e-mail request to a highly respected local
> geek/savant for consultation:
>
> <<Do you recognize the word "amush"? Maybe it's some kind of jargon. Google
> gets ~400 hits; some are errors for "ambush", some are apparently giving a
> salutation or something in Hebrew, others I don't know.>>
>
> Note that I provided no quotation or context.
>
> My consultant responds:
>
> <<The first thing I thought upon reading your question was "amush ?=?
> amuck". ... Well, a MUSH is similar to a MUCK... Multi-User Shared
> Hallucination vs. [Multi-User] Created Kingdom ([both] likely backronymic).
> ... many of the first hits I turned up on Google were for AuroraMUSH or
> something hosted under their domain, amush.cx.>>
>
> It seems that both MUSH and MUCK refer to virtual environments largely used
> for role-playing games. I guess "muck" is semantically similar to "mush"
> ... wait, maybe there's a "MUD" too? Yes, it looks like there is, the
> ancestor probably: Google estimates ~66,000 hits for "mud multi-user":
> apparently "MUD" = "multi-user dungeon" or "multi-user dimension", dating
> from *really* ancient times (ca. 1980, *well* before my consultant's birth):
>
> http://www.apocalypse.org/pub/u/lpb/muddex/
>
> Amusing, although of questionable relevance to Michael Quinion's question.
> In 21st-century geography, I believe Pennsylvania and Yorkshire are
> adjacent/congruent, and both closely related to Christmas Island (the
> notional location of "amush.cx"). Perhaps the age of the user of the
> mystery expression might be of interest.
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun  1 06:29:12 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 02:29:12 -0400
Subject: Amush
In-Reply-To: <B91DC899.2F96%lancedm@missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUN.2002.022912.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Do they use the vowel in look or the vowel in luck?

It's probably somewhat optional, since it's quite conventional for these
modern types to communicate by e-mail while working in the same room ....

My consultant consistently used the vowel in "luck", when I spoke with him
in the old-fashioned real-time audible manner a few hours ago.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  1 09:55:32 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 05:55:32 EDT
Subject: Pointing a Finger (1938)
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUN.2002.055532.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The great Fred Shapiro gets a mention in William Safire's "On Language"
column this Sunday.  From the NY TIMES MAGAZINE on the web site:

   Fred Shapiro of Yale, compiling the hungrily awaited Yale Dictionary of
Quotations, has dug up this citation from a 1941 Social Forces
magazine..."This finger-pointing is not only unnecessary but false."

("Hungrily" awaited?  Is Fred writing about food, too?--ed.)

   I didn't read it, but the NYPL has this book title:

Toomey, John A.
PROPAGANDA IN THE PRESS:
POINTING A FINGER AT PRESS PROPAGANDA
New York: America Press
1938


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Jun  1 14:21:07 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 09:21:07 -0500
Subject: Vocabula Review
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUN.2002.092107.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Would Mr. Fiske please provide an indication of the type of
articles contained in _The Vocabula Review_. (The URL cited gives
just endorsements).

Gerald Cohen



>Date:         Fri, 31 May 2002 14:49:27 EDT
>From: Robert Hartwell Fiske <Vocabula at AOL.COM>
>Subject:      The Vocabula Review
>Comments: To: ADS-L at uga.cc.uga.edu
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>Hello
>
>Though a free publication for two and a half years, The Vocabula Review is
>now wholly available to paying subscribers only.
>
>Many of The Vocabula Review's pages are now accessible only to those who have
>paid a $4.95 (USD) yearly fee.
>
>That's right, only $4.95 a year.
>
>Why not take a look?
>
>http://www.vocabula.com/VRsubscribe.htm
>
>
>Robert Hartwell Fiske
>Editor and Publisher
>The Vocabula Review
>www.vocabula.com
>______________________
>
>The Vocabula Review
>A measly $4.95 a year
>www.vocabula.com
>______________________
>
>The Vocabula Review
>10 Grant Place
>Lexington, MA 02420
>United States
>Tel: (781) 861-1515


From Vocabula at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  1 14:45:22 2002
From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 10:45:22 EDT
Subject: Vocabula Review
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUN.2002.104522.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Mr Cohen

Online since September 1999, The Vocabula Review (http://www.vocabula.com)
offers scores of articles in its TVR Essay Archive
(http://www.vocabula.com/VRessay.htm).

Each month, we publish three or four new essays. In the May issue, now
online, we have published:

The Melancholy of Anatomy -- Richard Burnett Carter
Myth-Bashing as a Substitute for Thought -- Mark Halpern
Mach 1 -- Michael J. Sheehan
Myths and Takes on Writing Web Content -- Ken Bresler
Two Poems -- Brian Taylor

In the June issue, online June 16, we will publish:

The Missing Link -- Darren Crovitz
Penman -- Joseph Epstein
Rhetoric and Reality -- Konstantin Kakaes
The Elder Statesman -- Clark Elder Morrow

We also publish a number of regular departments:

Grumbling About Grammar
Elegant English
On Dimwitticisms
Clues to Concise Writing
Scarcely Used Words
Oddments and Miscellanea
On the Bookshelf
Letters to the Editor

What's more, TVR Forum (http://members.boardhost.com/Vocabula/) may interest
you.

Regards,


Robert Hartwell Fiske
Editor and Publisher
The Vocabula Review
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
A measly $4.95 a year
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
10 Grant Place
Lexington, MA 02420
United States
Tel: (781) 861-1515


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  1 21:40:08 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 17:40:08 EDT
Subject: Linguists like to argue!?
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUN.2002.174008.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 05/24/2002 9:39:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes:

> James Landau proposes a position once advocated by Nikolai Trubezkoy in
1939:
> "Gedanken über Indogermanenproblem" in Acta Linguistica 1.81-89. I am not
> sure that anything similar to the creole lifecycle, for which I maintain
that
> there is no compelling empirical evidence, played a role in the process.
But
> I too believe strongly that language contact was an important factor in the
> speciation of an already variable proto-IE group of languages or language
> varieties. History has always suggested such a thing.

Yes, I thought of Trukezkoy when I wrote my original e-mail, but my sole
source of information on Trubezkoy is a few short mentions in Colin Renfrew
_Archaeology & Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins_ Cambridge,
England: Cambridge University Press, 1987, ISBN 0-521-35432-3 (hardback).
>From page 42 of the hardback "Few scholars today would go so far as Trubeskoy
in suggesting that there is no genetic or family-tree relationship at all
among the Indo-European languages, and that they just came to resemble each
other through the effects of prolonged contact.  And very few indeed would
agree with the French archaeologist, Jean-Paul Demoule, that there really is
no Indo-European language group at all, or that the similarities observed are
unimportant, insignificant and fortuitous."   (Demoule is footnoted as "'Les
Indo-europe/ens ont-ils existe/?" in _L'histoire_ 28 (1980) pp 109-120.

If Renfrew's summary is correct, then Trubeskoy was arguing a convergence
theory, and I am skeptical of convergence theories, e.g. if convergence were
a natural feature of adjacent languages, Canadians would now be speaking
Franglais as their national language.  As you point out in _The Ecology of
Language Evolution_, Creoles arise when there is a specific type of contact
between peoples speaking different tongues that requires one people to have
to develop a way to speak to the other.

Far from "denying any genetic or family-tree relationship at all among the
Indo-European languages", as Renfrew says Trubezkoy does, I was accepting for
purpose of discussion that a family-tree DOES exist among IE languages, and
was as a mental exercise showing one way such a family tree could exist
without requiring the existence of a unified proto-Indo-European language.

While my particular suggestion is too far-fetched to be believable (did you
spot the fatal flaw in it?), it does serve a serious purpose.  Many IE
researchers have made elaborate attempts to identify the time and place of
PIE by examining similarities in the known IE languages.  If PIE did not
exist as a tongue spoken in one particular area at one particular time, then
this is wasted effort.  Perhaps researchers should concentrate more on
examining the DIFFERENCES between IE subfamilies, asking such questions as
"do the differences in *proto-Greek and *proto-Indo-Aryan show that the
Greeks and Indo-Aryans were once a united people or that they were on
different sides of the proto-Indo-European spectrum?"

I also had a second purpose in my little theory.  Question: when and where
did PIE (or reasonable facsmile) exist.  Consensus answer: 5K to 10K years
ago, somewhere in Europe or the Black Sea region.  Fine so far.  Now assume
that before the time frame in which an identifiable putative-PIE existed, the
proto-proto-IE speakers spent millenia speaking ancestral versions of our
reconstructed *PIE's.  With me so far?  But add a few millenia to "5K to 10K
years ago" and you are in the Ice Age, when glaciers covered northern Europe
and our proto-proto-IE speakers were huddling in the Mediterranean or Fertile
Crescent regions, along with proto-Basques, proto-Semites, and
proto-Finno-Ugrians.

Someone who wishes to argue that IE is unrelated to other language families
must then, by my analysis, argue that the predecessors of the PIE speakers
INVENTED language sometime shortly after the END of the Ice Age, with no
input from the proto-Basques etc.  who were their neighbors in the late Ice
Age.  (Perhaps the proto-Basques etc. independently invented language after
the end of the Ice Age as well).  I find this to be a preposterously late
date for the invention of language, considering that Cro-Magnon man was
creating cave art DURING the Ice Age, and I can't imagine Cro-Magnon man
inventing art before having language.

I have now created a quite tenuous argument that proto-proto-IE speakers,
proto-Basque speakers, etc. were all using language while neighbors in the
Mediterranean-Fertile Crescent area DURING the Ice Age.  I am NOT suggesting
any convergence between these early examples of modern language families.
However, I suspect that the geographical realities strongly suggest (although
they do not prove) that at least some of the IE, Basque, Semitic (actually
Afro-Asiatic), and Finno-Ugrian families were descended from some unknown
earlier language,  This is not an original suggestion; rather it is my
variation on the Nostratic Hypothesis.

My point is not to advocate the Nostratic Hypothesis but rather to point out
that if IE is descended from Nostratic, something strange happened along the
way.  Finno-Ugrian languages share some distinctive grammatical and phonetic
features which simply cannot be found in PIE.  Semitic languages have a
three-consonant root for most words; again IE has nothing of the sort and
allows vowels to be as significant as consonants in distinguishing roots.
Basque is notorious for not resembling anything else, including PIE.

So we have a PIE which was descended from some sort of Nostratic, yet
grammatically and phonetically resembles no other plausible Nostratic
descendant.

Now to connect all this meandering with my original e-mail.  There is one way
that PIE could arise from a different language yet with a structure so
mangled as to be unrecognizable.  How?  If PIE were a creole.  More exactly,
if the proto-IE speakers found themselves in a position (e.g. defeated and
enslaved by neighbors speaking an unrelated or distantly related tongue) that
would cause a creole to develop.  Then after some centuries the proto-IE
speakers would escape from slavery but by then have forgotten their original
tongue and speak only the creole we recognize as PIE (undoubtedly in several
dialects), with all evidence of their original tongue being lost due to the
poor signal-to-noise ratio of paleolinguistics.

        Climbing down from my soapbox now

      - James A. Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  2 00:43:10 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 20:43:10 -0400
Subject: Pita, Zilabka (1925); Mezzlik (1904); Halva from Philadelphia,
 Turkey
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUN.2002.204310.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PITA, ZILABKA

TWO VAGABONDS IN THE BALKANS
by Jan and Cora Gordon
London: John Lane
1925

Pg. 112:  The climax of her culinary efforts was reached with the "Pita."  If one walks around any Serbian farmhouse one will probably find hanging outside upon the whitewashed wall in some sheltered spot a flat circular low-legged table.  This is the pita board.  Upon it a paste of flour and water is rolled and rolled again with a long narrow roller, until the paste is as thin as writing paper and has spread to equal in surface the diameter of the table itself, about two feet six inches.  This paste is then sprinkled with lumps of the clammy white cheese, or with mincemeat, gathered up into a loose roll like a packet of Christmas tissue paper, and coiled within a flat cooking dish.  Sucessive coils are added until the dish is filled; it is then greased and fried.
   Pita properly made can be delicious, although it is over-luscious for the Western palate; but peasant-made pita almost defies the gastronomic imagination.
(OED has 1951 for "pita"--ed.)

Pg. 197:  The grapes here are of the low stumpy variety, and the best wine is of two kinds, a white wine called Zilabka,* not unlike white Bordeaux, and a ruby red not unlike a medium flavoured Chianti, both, however, strong in alcohol: indeed the local drinkers were complaining that owing to the weakening of the vines the wines were losing their potency and were becoming undrinkable.
*Z, pr. Zh.
(OED has 1926 for "Zilavka"--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
MEZZLIK

TURKISH LIFE IN TOWN AND COUNTRY
by Lucy M. J. Garnett
G. P. Putnam's Sons, New York and London
The Knickerbocker Press
1904 (1911 edition)

Pg. 331 (Glossary):
_Mezzlik_--a _hors d'oeuvre_.
(Mezzlik=Meze?  If so, this antedates that by about 10 years and is useful for the etymology of "meze"--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
HALVA FROM PHILADELPHIA, TURKEY

EVERYDAY LIFE IN TURKEY
by Mrs. W. M. Ramsay
London: Hodder and Stoughton
1897

Pg. 198:  The ladies of the house were charming and very kind, and gave me _halva_, a sweetmeat for which Ala-Sheher is renowned, as Forfar is for "rock" and Banbury for its cakes.

Pg. 194:  ...Ala-Sheher...the ancient Philadelphia, still so named by the Greeks.

(Ah!  So "halva" originated in Philadelphia, Turkey and not Azerbaijan?--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  2 01:33:52 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 21:33:52 -0400
Subject: Aguardiente (1810); Tronc (1853); Blame Game
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUN.2002.213352.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

AGUARDIENTE

TRAVELS THROUGH THE EMPIRE OF MOROCCO
by John Buffa
London: J. J. Stockdale
1810

Pg. 69:  When we reached the house of the Vice-consul, I was presented with a glass of _aguardiente_, for refreshment.

Pg. 182:  ..._cous-ca-sou_...

Pg. 216:  Having drank too much _aguardiente_, they imagined themselves in the streets of Gibraltar.

(OED has 1818 or 1824 for "aguardiente"--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
TRONC

BOGUE'S GUIDES FOR TRAVELLERS
II.  SWITZERLAND AND SAVOY
London: David Bogue
1853

Pg. 260:  They have a very nice chapel, adorned with paintings, and in it is a "_tronc_," or chairty-box, where travellers who partake of the hospitality of the kind monks ordinarily deposit alms, not of less amount than they would be charged at an inn, though the shelter and Hospice are entirely without charge.

(OED has 1928 for "tronc"--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
BLAME GAME

"The coiner--or at least, the political popularizer--was President Ronald Reagan in a television address to the nation on Oct. 14, 1982."
--William Safire, "On Language," NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE, 2 June 2002.

   This stuff is awful.
   I know, I know--William Safire is entitled to a free ride to say anything he wants about anything, without correction or criticism.  And responding to me after 10+ years would lose the War for the Allies or something.
   But this is wrong: Ronald Reagan didn't coin "blame game," and he didn't popularize it either.  I recall it being used in the 1960s (about the Vietnam War), when the phrase "the name of the game" was also popular.
   A quick search turns up:

THE BLAME GAME
by Daniel Whiteside
Sande/Whiteside Associates, BFA Educational Media
Film 1 film reel (20 min.)
1974

(BOB CARR DISCUSSES U.S. FOREIGN POLICY IN SOUTHEAST ASIA)
by Bob Carr and Craig Halverson
Sound Recording: Non-music 1 sound tape reel
1975
Abstract:  Carr says the American people are tired of the "blame game" regarding Southeast Asia, that the credibility of American government on Capitol Hill is more important than what might be thought of us overseas.  With Craig Halverson.
Note:  Broadcast on WKAR-TV, April 1975.

KNOWING ME, KNOWING YOU
Coronet Instructional Media
Visual Material: Filmstrip: Primary school
1977, 1976
Contents:  The I feel game.--The you feel game.--The no blame game.--The I want-you want game.


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Sun Jun  2 05:31:20 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 00:31:20 -0500
Subject: Linguists like to argue!?
In-Reply-To: <6c.1d1545a3.2a2a9938@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.003120.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Most of James Landau's proposal is at least plausible, if not very well
grounded in evidence.  However, the paragraph I retained below is straight
straw man, or maybe just straight man.  Lots of IEists doubt, question, or
reject outright the various forms of the Nostratic Hypothesis and its even
more remote varieties like Eurasian, although some are looking more
carefully at some of the published arguments and evidence.  However, I have
yet to see serious argument by an IEist that IE is unrelated to Dravidian or
Uralic or Afro-Asiatic.  Rather the argument is that such relationships are
seriously underdetermined by the data.  Even the most violently hostile of
Greenberg's or Ruhlen's critics, for example, will not say that monogenesis
is impossible.  They'll say simply that our methods can't take us back
anywhere near such a time.  One interesting treatment of connections, with
borrowing in both directions, between PIE and other languages of Western
Asia, the Caucasus, Asia Minor, and Mesopotamia is Gamkrelidze and Ivanov's
compendious Indo-European and the Indo-Europeans published in English in
1995 in a translation by Johanna Nichols.

Herb

James A. Landau writes:

Someone who wishes to argue that IE is unrelated to other language families
must then, by my analysis, argue that the predecessors of the PIE speakers
INVENTED language sometime shortly after the END of the Ice Age, with no
input from the proto-Basques etc.  who were their neighbors in the late Ice
Age.  (Perhaps the proto-Basques etc. independently invented language after
the end of the Ice Age as well).  I find this to be a preposterously late
date for the invention of language, considering that Cro-Magnon man was
creating cave art DURING the Ice Age, and I can't imagine Cro-Magnon man
inventing art before having language.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  2 07:05:08 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 03:05:08 EDT
Subject: "Pideh" in Evliya Efendi's 17th Century Travels
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.030508.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NARRATIVE OF TRAVELS IN EUROPE, ASIA, AND AFRICA,
IN THE SEVENTEENTH CENTURY
by Evliya Efendi
translated from the Turkish by The Ritter Joseph von Hammer
London: Printed for the Oriental Translation Fund of Great Britain and
Ireland,
sold by Parbury, Allen & Co.
1834
Johnson Reprint Corporation, NY and London
1968

    ZERO OED CITES????
   The author's name is also often given as Evliya Celebi (1611 or
1614-1682).  The book's name is also given as SEYAHATNAME (BOOK OF TRAVELS).
Nothing turned up on OED.
   The book is a classic for Turkey and the Caucasus.  It's just about the
earliest book there is for this stuff.  Please tell me I plugged in something
wrong in my online OED.  It can't be entirely missing!
   A few items before I lose consciousness and fall asleep.

VOLUME ONE
PART ONE
Pg. 61:  ...he ate some kababs and bread and drank buzah (a kind of beer)...

Pg. 135:  ..._dayara_ (tambourine)...
Pg. 135:  ...warsiki (mystic song)...

Pg. 150:  ...a _fetva_, or warrant for the execution...

VOLUME ONE
PART TWO
Pg. 13:  ...a gipsy (Chingani)...

Pg. 47:  _Eatables and Beverages of Kassim Pasha_.
   These consist of whitee cracknels (gurek), white bread (semid), pastry
(churek), and peaches of exquisite flavour, apricots, grapes, roses of
Boshnak Dedeh, kaimak (cream), and yogurd (curd), and fat sheep.

Pg. 53:  _Exquisite eatables and beverages of Galata_.
   The first and best is the white bread, called franjula; the sweetmeats,
liqueurs and confitures sold in the sugar-market  are  no where to be found
in such perfection, unless it is at Damascus.  The halwa is sold in painted
paper.  The white bread (semid) is seasoned with spice.

Pg. 54:  I drank only of the sherbet, cvalled mubtejil, made with Athenian
honey.

Pg. 61:  Amongst the most exquisite niceties of this place is the roast meat,
called kerdeh kibab, the khoshab (a kind of sherbet). the beer of millet
(buza) the white bread (sumuni), light as sponge, white and well-eyed, finer
than the bread of Sabanja and Amasia.  Issa Chelebi, the famous baker of it,
received a boon from a Dervish, by the power of which every thing succeeded
that he underook.  He became the baker of the world, because this bread is
carried even to Isfahan, and though three months in going, it does not spoil.

Pg. 75:  The milk and curd (yoghud) of this place are famous.
("Of Kanlijah"--ed.)

Pg. 100:  ...Tailesan (a kind of handkerchief, the Talas of the Jews,)...


Pg. 120  (Ash Baba not Mohallebi, or Pabodeh, which are technical names of
different dishes.)
(See my recent post on "muhallebi."--ed.)

Pg. 121:  Besides these they bake some small sorts of bread and cake called
Ramazan pideh, sumun, and lawasha, which they throw out in the Emperor's
Presence...
(See my "pita" posting and compare with "pide."  Gotta go--sleep is
calling--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  2 14:37:50 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 10:37:50 EDT
Subject: Caucasus food glossaries (LONG!)
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.103750.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I have several lengthy Caucasus food glossaries.  How do they stack up
against the OED?  Are the terms in the OED at all?
   Some of these words are English, some of these words should be English,
and some of these words definitely should not be English.  These are
glossaries in English language books for this region.  Dictionary editors can
judge for themselves.
   My general rule is that is the term occurs more than once, or if it's in
the non-food specialized LONELY PLANET glossary, its English use should be
seriously considered.

AC=
THE ARMENIAN COOKBOOK
by Rachel Hogrogian
Atheneum, New York
1978
Food glossary pages xv-xxi

AZ=
AZERBAIJAN, WITH EXCURSIONS TO GEORGIA
by Mark Elliott
Trailblazer Publications, Surrey
second edition 2001
Huge food glossary pages 320-325.

GEO=
GEORGIA: A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY OF THE CAUCASUS
by Roger Rosen
Odyssey Publications, London
1991, 1999
Food glossary pages 77-81.

GeoF=
THE GEORGIAN FEAST:
THE VIBRANT CULTURE AND SAVORY FOOD OF THE REPUBLIC OF GEORGIA
by Darra Goldstein
HarperCollins, NY
1993
Food glossary pages 210-211.

LP=
LONELY PLANET
GEORGIA, ARMENIA & AZERBAIJAN
Lonely Planet, Victoria, Australia
1st edition, August 2000
Food Glossaries each country, pages 49, 87, 191, 254

abgusht--AZ 320
abour--AC xv
achma--GEO 79
adfeh--AC xv
Adjem pilaf--AC xv
adjaruli--GEO 79
adzhapsandali--GeoF 210
adzhika--GEO 77, GeoF 210, LP 87 (ajika)
ajma--AZ 320
akhta--AZ 320
albukhara--AZ 320
alcha turchusu--AZ 320
alfar--AZ 320
anoush--AC xv
anoushabour--AC xv
anousheghen--AC xv
arabuli--AZ 320
arak--AZ 320
ash--AZ 320
asterina--AZ 320
atkyartof--AZ 320
ayran--AZ 320
azma--AZ 320
baba ghanoush--AC xv
badagi--GeoF 210
badamli borucuq--AZ 320
badimcan--AZ 320
badrijani--GEO 78
baki--AC xv
bakhlava--AZ 320
baliq--AZ 321, LP 255
balva--AZ 321
bamiya--AC xv, AZ 321, LP 255
banir--AC xv
bardijan nigzit--AZ 320
bastegh--AC xv
basturma--AZ 321, GEO 78, GeoF 210, LP 191 (bastarma)
bazhe--GeoF 210
bazhi--GEO 78
bekmes--AZ 321
beyin--AZ 321
biberr--AC xv
bishi--AC xv
blini--AZ 321
boerag--AC xv
boombar--AC xv
borani--GeoF 210
borshch--AZ 321
bourma--AC xv
bozartma--AZ 321
bozbash--AZ 321
buglama--AZ 321, GeoF 210
bulghour--AC xv
bulghourov spanakh--AC xv
chacha--GeoF 210
chadi--AZ 321, GEO 78
chakapuli--GEO 78, GeoF 210
chakhokhbili--GEO 78, GeoF 210
chanakhi--GEO 78, GeoF 210
chashushuli--AZ 321
chicken chkmeruli (tabaka)--GEO 78
chigh kofte--AZ 321
chi kufta--AC xv
chigirtma--AZ 321
chikhirtma--Geof 210
choereg--AC xv
cholpan--AZ 321
chorba--AZ 321
chorek--AZ 321, LP 255
churchkhela--AZ 321, GEO 78, LP 87
chvishtari--AZ 321
ciger--liver
dabgadz--AC xv
danduri--GeoF 210
derev--AC xvi
derev dolma--AC xvi
doga--AZ 321
dograma--AZ 321, LP 255
dolma--AC xvi, AZ 321, LP 191, LP 255
dondurma--AZ 321
Donn orva pilaf--AC xvi
dovga--AZ 321, LP 255
duezmah--AC xvi
dushbara--AZ 321, LP 255
dutmaj abour--AC xvi
dzhondzholi--GeoF 210
ekmek kadayif--AC xvi
enguinar--AC xvi
enovani--GEO 79
erishtah abour--AC xvi
etli--AZ 321
etli nahout--AZ 321
ezme salad--AZ 321
fassoulia--AC xvi
feeshneyov anoush--AC xvi
filo--AC xvi
firinda--AZ 321
gaiganag--AZ 321
gamburger--AZ 321
gatnabour--AC xvi
gelorig--AC xvi
geragoornerr--AC xvi
ghomi--GEO 79
girmapadam--LP 255
goch yumurta--AZ 321
gogal--AZ 321
gomi--GeoF 210
gorgod--AC xvi
goy/goyarti--AZ 322, LP 255
gozinaki--GEO 79, GeoF 210
gozinkali--AZ 322
gozleme--AZ 322
gretchka--AZ 322, LP 254 (gretchkii)
gubdari--AZ 322
gudis kveli--LP 87
guevej--AC xvi
gurza--AZ 322
hafta-bedjar--AZ 322
halva--AZ 322, LP 255
halvah--AC xvi
hash--AZ 322
hav--AC xvi
havgit--AC xvi
havgitov fassoulia--AC xvi
haydari--AZ 322
heyva--AZ 322
hummos--AC xvi
ikra--AZ 322
imam bayeldi--AC xvii
imeruli--GEO 79
imrig halvah--AC xvii
isrimi--GeoF 210
izmire kufta--AC xvii
jajukh--AC xvii
jevisli--AC xvii
jezveh--AC xvii
jigerr--AC xvii
jiz-biz--AZ 322
juxa--AZ 322
kaban--AZ 322
kadayif--AC xvii
kaklik--AZ 322
kalapacha--AZ 322
kalyam dolmasy--AZ 322
karabich--AC xvii
karishik izgara--AZ 322
karni yarik--AZ 322
kartozhki--AZ 322
kartut--AZ 322
katah--AC xvii
kazbeguri--AZ 322
kebab/kebob--AZ 322, LP 191
keshkeg--AC xvii
ketsi--GeoF 210
khabourga--AC xvii
khachapuri--GEO 79, GeoF 210, LP 88
khajapuri--AZ 322
khaimakh--AC xvii
khamaju--LP 191
kharcho--GEO 79, GeoF 210
khash--LP 191
khashi--GEO 79, GeoF 211, LP 88
khashlama--LP 191
khavourma--AC xvii
kheyma--AC xvii
khingkale/khingal--AZ 322
khinkali--GEO 79, GeoF 211, LP 88
khmeli-suneli--GeoF 211
khoravatz (shashlyk)--LP 191
khoritzov katah--AC xvii
khoshop--AC xvii
khourabia--AC xvii
khumoreghen--AC xvii
khundsor--AC xviii
khunsorov dolma--AC xviii
khurma/xurma--AZ 323
kievski kotleta--AZ 323
kimion--AC xviii
kimionov kufta--AC xviii
kinza--AZ 323
kofte/kuftasi--AZ 323
kompot--AZ 323
kotleta--AZ 323
kourma--AZ 323
kouzou kzartma--AC xviii
kufta--AC xviii
kuchmachi--AZ 323
kupati--AZ 323
kuri zharennie--AZ 323
kutab--AZ 323
kulcha--AZ 323
kutum--AZ 323
kvatsarakhi--GeoF 211
kvevri--GeoF 211, LP 88
kyufte--LP 191
kyzal gul sok--AZ 323
lahana--AC xviii
lahmacun--AZ 323
lahmajoon--AC xviii
langet--AZ 323
lapsha--AZ 323
lavangi--AZ 323, LP 255
lavash--AC xviii, AZ 323, LP 191
lavashana--AZ 323
lehzoo--AC xviii
lobio--GEO 81, GeoF 211, LP 87
lobya--AZ 323
lokhma--AC xviii
lulle kebab--AC xviii, LP 255
machari--GeoF 211
madzoon--AC xviii
madzoonov--AC xviii
madzoonabourov kufta--AC xviii
mahleb--AC xviii
mamoul--AC xviii
mamounya--AC xviii
manti--AC xviii, AZ 323
marani--GeoF 211
masharabi--GeoF 211
matsoni--GEO 81, GeoF 211, LP 87
matsonye--AZ 323
mchadi--GeoF 211
mees--AC xviii
meeseghen--AC xviii
meesov geragoornerr--AC xviii
mehr--AZ 323
mercimek/merjimek--AZ 323
meza--AC xviii
midia--AC xviii
midia dolma--AC xix
mkhali (also pkhali)--GeoF 211
mtsvadi (shashlik)--AZ 323, GEO 81, GeoF 211
morok--AZ 323
moussaka--AC xix
muedjatdera--AC xix
muhallabi--AC xix
murabba--AZ 323
myasa--AZ 323
naatiffe--AC xix
nadugi--GEO 81, GeoF 211
narsharab--AZ 323
nasuk--AZ 323
noush--AC xix
noushov pilaf--AC xix
ojakhuri--AZ 323
okroshka--AZ 323
ooghegh--AC xix
ovma--AZ 323
ovrishta--AZ 323
pacha--AC xix
paghlah--AC xix
pakhlava--AC xix, LP 255
panchareghen--AC xix
pandjarabour--AC xix
parpatoyun--AZ 323
pasterma--AC xix
patinlecan--AZ 323
patisson--AZ 323
patlijan--AC xix
patlijan karni yarek--AC xix
patlijanov--AC xix
paxlava--AZ 323
pechen--AZ 323
pelmeni--AZ 323
pendir--LP 255
pertama--AZ 324
peshmak--LP 255
piaz--AC xix
pide--AZ 324
pideh--AC xix
pilaf--AC xix
pilav--AZ 324
piti--AZ 324, LP 255
pirozhki--AZ 324
pirzola--AZ 324
piva--AZ 324, LP 192
pkhali--GEO 81, LP 87
plaki--AC xix
plov--AZ 324, LP 254
pomidor--AZ 324
porov--AC xix
prinz--AC xix
prinzov pilaf--AC xix
pure--AZ 324
puri--AZ 324, GEO 81, GeoF 211
qatiq--AZ 324, LP 255 (quatab)
qovurma--AZ 324
qoz--AZ 324
qulyas--AZ 324
ragu--AZ 324
raki--AC xix, AZ 324
rechel--AC xix
revani--AC xx
rheyma--AZ 324
rhingkale--AZ 324
riba--AZ 324
rtveli--GeoF 211
rulet--AZ 324
sabsi--AZ 324
salata--AC xx
satsivi--AZ 324, GEO 81, GeoF 211
satsnakheli--GeoF 211
sebzeli kebab--AZ 324
semichki--AZ 324
shalgam--AZ 324
shamama--AZ 324
shashlyk--AZ 324, LP 49
shchi--AZ 324
shekerbura--LP 255
shirin--AZ 324
shish--AC xx
shish kebab--AC xx
shishboereg--AC xx
shkemeruli--AZ 324
shorba--AZ 324
shor gogal--AZ 324
shurpa--AZ 324
simit--AC xx
sini kufta--AC xx
sirom--AZ 324
sokh--AC xx
sokhov dolma--AC xx
soorj--AC xx
sosiska--AZ 324
soudjookh--AC xx
soyutma--AZ 324
spanakh--AC xx
suchush--LP 191
sucuk--AZ 325
suluguni--AZ 325, GeoF 211, LP 87 (sulguni)
sumak--AZ 325, LP 255 (sumax)
sup (suplar)--AZ 325
susam--AC xx
susamov khumoreghen--AC xx
suzma--AZ 325
tabaka--AZ 325, GeoF 211
taheen--AC xx
tamada--GeoF 211
tan--AC xx
tandir--AZ 325
tarama--AC xx
tarhun/tarkhuni--AZ 325
tass kebab--AC xx
tatara--AZ 325
tava-ati--AZ 325
tavuk--AZ 325
tika--AZ 325, LP 255 (tika kebob)
tkemali--AZ 325
tkhemali--GEO 81, GeoF 211, LP 87 (tkemali)
tklapi--GeoF 211
tolma--GeoF 211
tomates--AC xx
tomatesov--AC xx
tone--GeoF 211
topik--AC xx
tourshi--AC xx
toyug/tojug--AZ 325
tsitsmati--GeoF 211
tsoug--AC xx
tsougov plaki--AC xx
tum--AZ 325
turac--AZ 325
turlu guevej--AC xxi
tutovka--AZ 325
tutum--AC xxi
tutumov rechel--AC xxi
tvorog--AZ 325
ukha--AZ 325
ungouyz--AC xxi
ungouyzov khumoreghen--AC xxi
vosp--AC xxi
vospov kheyma--AC xxi
xash (khash, khashi, hash)--AZ 325
xiyar--AZ 325
xot dog (hot dog)--AZ 325
yalanchi dolma--AC xxi
yarpag dolmasi--AZ 325
yerigamoonk--AC xxi
yevaylen--AC xxi
yumurta--AZ 325
zharkoe--AZ 325
zirinj--AZ 325
zogol--AZ 325


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sun Jun  2 15:13:05 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 11:13:05 -0400
Subject: 1882 Phonetic Happy New Year
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.111305.0400.>

While browsing the American Memory section of the Library of Congress I came
across this mildly interesting 1882 New Year's poem in phonetic form, based
on Witmer's phonetic alphabet.

The poem:
http://tinyurl.com/abu

The phonetic alphabet:
http://tinyurl.com/abw

--

Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
http://www.worldnewyork.org/
646 296 2260


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  2 15:15:52 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 11:15:52 -0400
Subject: Linguists like to argue!?
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.111552.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The idea that language was somehow "invented" (like the clothespin or the condom) rather than generated by the evolution of the species (like the bipedal gate)is in itself "preposterous."
>
>James A. Landau writes:
>
>Someone who wishes to argue that IE is unrelated to other language families
>must then, by my analysis, argue that the predecessors of the PIE speakers
>INVENTED language sometime shortly after the END of the Ice Age, with no
>input from the proto-Basques etc.  who were their neighbors in the late Ice
>Age.  (Perhaps the proto-Basques etc. independently invented language after
>the end of the Ice Age as well).  I find this to be a preposterously late
>date for the invention of language, considering that Cro-Magnon man was
>creating cave art DURING the Ice Age, and I can't imagine Cro-Magnon man
>inventing art before having language.
>


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Sun Jun  2 17:28:33 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 18:28:33 +0100
Subject: 1882 Phonetic Happy New Year
In-Reply-To: <B91FAE41.4482%gbarrett@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.182833.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Sunday, June 2, 2002 11:13 am -0400 Grant Barrett
<gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG> wrote:

> While browsing the American Memory section of the Library of Congress I
> came across this mildly interesting 1882 New Year's poem in phonetic
> form, based on Witmer's phonetic alphabet.
>
> The poem:
> http://tinyurl.com/abu

Does this mean that the w in 'two' was pronounced, or is that a spelling
error in the phonetically transcribed poem?  (where 'twu' with a macron
over the 'u' is 'two')

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  2 18:17:08 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 14:17:08 EDT
Subject: Dragon Naturally Speaking ("His wife could eat no lien")
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.141708.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Mark Mandel types might be interested in the article in today's NEW YORK
POST, 2 June 2002, pg. 30 (www.nypost.com).

SPOKEN:  Jack Sprat could eat no fat, his wife could eat no lean.  And so
betwixt the two of them, they licked the platter clean.

IBM ViaVoice Pro USB Edition, Release 9:  Jack sprat could eat no thought his
wife could eat no we.  And so betwixt the two of them they licked the platter
clean.

ScanSoft Dragon Naturally Speaking 6:  Jackson Miss Brad to the eat no fact
his wife could eat no lien.  And so what it twixt the two of them they licked
the plotter clean.

   4 1/2 errors, on average, per sentence!
   "The Hollywood Harrys" are mentioned in a box on page 11 in the Woody
Allen lawsuit story.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  2 20:03:31 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 16:03:31 EDT
Subject: Linguists like to argue!?
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.160331.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/02/2002 1:42:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:

> Most of James Landau's proposal is at least plausible, if not very well
>  grounded in evidence.

"Not very well grounded" is praising with faint damns.  I was suggesting
possibilities (i.e. thinking out loud) for topics on which I have no hard
evidence at all.

>However, the paragraph I retained below is straight
>  straw man, or maybe just straight man.

I'm a little surprised that of all the items in my "proposal" you would pick
that paragraph to rebut.  I was at that point building a logical (though
quite tenous) chain of arguments that IE was necessarily related to
Finno-Ugrian, Semitic, and/or Basque, and I had to dispose of the argument
that IE was invented (no, better to say "came into existence") AFTER the
glaciers had started retreating from Northern Europe.

But yes you are right, the paragraph in question does set up a straw man
argument.  Being an amateur, I have never encountered any theories as to what
early Europeans spoke during the latter parts of the Ice Ages, so I tried to
imagine the possible theories.

     James A. Landau (the "A" stands for "Amateur")


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  2 20:36:04 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 16:36:04 EDT
Subject: Evliya Efendi's 17th Century Travels (continued)
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.163604.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Continuing from where I left off.

Pg. 121:  They bake for noby else but the Janissaries, unless it be for the
poor, to whom they distribute black loaves of bread called (fodula).

Pg. 122:  The Cracknel-bakers (chorekjian),* two hundred shops and as many
men.
*_Chorek_ is a kind of butter-cake covered with sesamum.

Pg. 122:  The Pastry-cooks (Borekjian),* two hundred shops and men.
*_Borek_ is a kind of pastry or pie.

Pg. 122:  The Bakers of the paste, called Kah,...
The Bakers of the paste, called Ghurabieh,...
The Bakers of the bread, called Semid,...
The Bakers of Kataif, a sort of excellent macaroni made of almonds with
sugar, one hundred men, with fifty shops.
The Bakers of the kind of paste, called Sehrieh,...
The Bakers of the fritters, called Lokma,...
The Bakers of the sweet cakes, called Gozelmeh,...

Pg. 123:  In the shops of the Lokmaji and Gozlemehji, a Jew is appointed as
inspector, because Jews only eat cakes and fritters baked in oil, and Moslems
those baked in butter.

Pg. 137:  Coffee-houses are houses of confusion.  Coffee has been by law
declared illicit in the great collections of fetwas, called Bezazieh and
Tartar-khanieh, wherein every thing that is burnt is declared to be illegal
food; this is also the case with burnt bread.  Sherbet, milk, tea, badian,
salep, and almond-cream are all more wholesome than coffee.

Pg. 143:  The Curd-merchants (Yoghurdjian). ...
The Merchants of the cheese called Telmeh Penir.

Pg. 148:  The Merchants of salted beef (Jelb-keshan Pasdirmajian) are six
hundred, and no less wealthy merchants than the former.  The greatest part of
them are Infidels of Moldavia and Wallachia.  Their stands, called Saya and
Ekrek, have been mentioned before.  They bring, about the day of Kassem (S.
Demetrius), three hundred thousand oxen for the provision of Constantinople,
of which they make Pasdirma (salted beef).
(Pastrami?--ed.) (...)
   The Merchants of dried salted beef (Tajirani Pasdirma) four hundred menb,
with an hundred shops.  THeir shops are outside of the Wooden gate at Galata
and Top-khanah and everywhere else.  They sell dried salted beef, and adorn
their shops with hams and slices of the such kinds of meats, and cry to the
beholders, "Take Pasdirma."

Pg. 149:  The Prophet himself came into  his shop at Mecca to eat of the dish
called heriseh, which is mentioned in the tradition by the word of the
Prophet.  "Heriseh is the Lord of dishes."

Pg. 150:  Vinegar is praised in the tradition of the Prophet: if there is no
vinegar in a house it is said, that there is no blessing either.

Pg. 150:  The adage says, _El-mumen holwi wel fassek turshi_, "The faithful
are  sweet and the wicked sour," and again, _Habb el-holwi min el-iman_, "The
love of sweetmeats proceeds from Faith."

Pg. 151:  Their first patron is Adam, who cooked the soup called
Baba-chorbassi, the father's soup; the second Abraham; the third the Prophet,
who on the day of the conquest of Mecca cooked himself soup and the dish
called Heriseh, serving at the same time all the Moslims.

Pg. 152:  The Cooks of Saffrom Pilaw (erdejian) are thirty men, with fifteen
shops. ...
   The Roasting Cooks (Burganjian)...
   The Stewers (Yakhnjian), who sell Yakhni (stewed meat). ...
   The Farcers (Dolmajian) are one hundred and fifty men, with fifty shops.
Their patron saint is Sheab Rumi, bred up by Selman, and buried at
Kaissarieh, near Amr-ul-kais, the poet.  They sell all kinds of dolmas
(long-shaped pumpkins filled with meat, or minced meat simply wrapped up in
leaves) as, Kabak-dolma, Yaprak-dolma, Mumbar-dolma, Soghan-dolma,
Lahana-dolma.
(This translation occurs about 150 years later, but it would still be another
50 years before OED would record "dolma"!--ed.)

Pg. 153:  The Almond-cream-makers (Paludehjian).  Their patron was bred up by
Selman.  They pass selling their creams and crying their sweet cakes
(rahat-lokum or rahat-ul-kholkum), which they say sharpens the sight.
(See prior posts for "Turkish Delight"--ed.)

Pg. 153:  The Saladmakers (Salotajian) are three hundred men, all Greeks,
with two hundred shops.  Their patron is not known to me; they ornament their
shops and cry "Salad well oiled."
   The Spinach merchants (Ispanakjian)...
   The Sausage-makers (Sujukjian) are thirty men, with ten shops.  Their
patron is not known.  They adorn their shops with well-seasoned sausages of
meat.
   The Merchants of Khoshab (a kind of sherbet), are seven hundred men, with
five hundred shops.

Pg. 154:  The Sherbet-merchants (Sherbetjian)...
   The Cryers of warm almond-cream (Paludeh)...
   The Almond-paste makers (Badamli Kufterjian)...

Pg. 155:  These paste-makers put nuts and almonds on a string, which they
pass through almond jelly (paludeh), and make a kind of paste as delicious as
that made at Aintab.  They adorn their shops with all kinds of pastes
(kufter), and pass clad in armour. ...
   The Salep-merchants (Th'lebjian)...
   The Merchants of warm milk (Sudjian sukhanan)...
   The Sellers of the cream, called Mohallebi (Mohallebijian) have no shops,
but like the former sell mohallebi in cans heated by fire.  Mohalleb is an
herb which grows on the highest alps, and which ground and boiled with sugar
and pure milk is sold as cream.  It is a fortifying purgative of bile and
phlegm, and is a delicious sherbet.
(Again, how could OED not have entered something old?  Is it an infidel word
they just didn't like?  Don't OED editors ever visit Turkey??--ed.) ...
   The Syrup-makers (Ighdajian)...
   The Merchants of the syrup Ighda...

Pg. 156:  The Grape-pressers (Degirmenjiani uzum)...
   The SNow and Ice merchants (Karji) have an establishment near the
vegetable-market, where the chief of the Imperial ice-porters resides summer
and winter.  Three hundred boatmen under his direction are always on
excursions to the mountains of Katirli, Modania, and Olympus.  They embark
the snow, ice, and fresh water, from these mountains, and carry them to the
Imperial kitchen, to the confectio9nary, to the Harem, and to the houses of
the grand vezir and other great men.
(Ice cream?--ed.)

Pg. 157:  A great contest about precedency took place between the fish-cooks
and sugar-bakers (Halvaji). ...  To this reproach the Halvajis added the
praise of the Halva, grounded on the praise contained in the Koran of grapes
and honey.  It is of the Halva, that the Prophet (who was very fond of
sweetmeats) said, "The love of sweetmeats comes from the faith," and again,
"The faithful are sweet, the wicked sour."

Pg. 158:  They fit up their shops on litters with all kinds of Halvas and
robs, as white Halva, Moon Halva, Date Halva, Almond Halva, Ketan Halva, and
Ghazilar Halva, which brings the water into the mouth os the boys of the
town, who devour it with their eyes. ...
   The Merchants of the confections, called 'Akideh ('Akidehjian),...
   The Fishermen (Balikjian)...

Pg. 159:  There are three Dalians for catching the Xiphias, the fourth is for
catching the Kalkan-balighi (Rombo) at the place called the Black Stones, and
the fifth at Terkos for catching the fish Kurek-balighi.  The other Dalians
are established on both sides of the canal of Constantinople for catching the
Scombro, Palamedes, Kefal, Pachur, Palaria, Lufer, and many thousands sorts
of fish, the names of which are unknown to me; they give the tenth to the
Balik-emini.

Pg. 160:  The sort of oysters called lakoz are very strengthening; some eat
them roasted in the fire on iron pans.

Pg. 161:  The Pilaw, made with shell-fish and pure oil, called Midia-pilaw,
is also a delicious dish.  But above all, praise be to the Scombro, Nilufer,
and Rombo, because the man who eats them is fit to procreate his kind.
Praise also be to the Kefal-balighi (Cephalus), of which it may be said, "I
eat the fish to its head."

Pg. 161:  The proverb says, "Who makes the net shall not mend it, who spreads
it shall not end it, and who eats the fish shall not feel it."

Pg. 201:  They are clad from head to foot in cotton Muvahadis (a kind of
short dress) Ferrajis, drawers, turbans, clubs, hatchets, and muskets, all
made of cotton.

Pg. 202:  The Manufacturer of the caps, called Kelleposh, are two hundred and
five men, with one hundred and five shops.

Pg. 214:  The Coffee-merchants (Attaran Kahve) are five hundred men, with
three hundred shops.  ... I don't know their Sheikh, because coffee is a new
invention, but the drinking it comes from Sheikh Shadeli.

Pg. 227:  The Makers of the instrument Musikar (a wind instrument) are
fifteen men, with six shops. ...
   The Makers of the instrument Cheng (Chengjian) are ten men, with two
shops; it was invented by Pythagoras to solace Salomon.

Pg. 228:  Of the great Duduk (a kind of pipe). ...
   Of the Dilli Duduk. ...
   Of the Arabic Duduk. ...
   Of the crying Duduk. ...
   Of the Hungarian Duduk. ...
   Of the Tent Duduk. ...
   Of the Mizmar Duduk. ...
   Of the Danguid Duduk. ...
   Of the Tolum Duduk. ...
(As I said, this instrument is all over the Caucasus.  It's unthinkable that
there's no OED entry--ed.)
   Of the Chighaneh.
   Of the Chalpara.
   Of the Zummar.
   Of the Kefeji (a kind of half drum).

Pg. 245:  The Sellers of Buza (fermented liquor of barley) are one thousand
and five men, with three hundred shops.  The first who contrived to make Buza
was the Tatar Salssal, who was killed at Akkerman, by Malek-ushtur with an
arrow. ...  The excess of drinking it, brings on the gout and dropsy, and the
proverb says;--"That dogs are no friends to Buza-drinkers."  The reason is
that Buza drinkers being liable to the above-said diseases, always carry a
stick in the hand, which is no means of recommending themselves to the favour
of dogs.  The Buza-sellers are for the greater part Tatar gipsies.

Pg. 246:  Since I was born, I never tasted in my life, of fermented
beverages, or prohibited things, neither of tobacco, nor coffee, nor tea, nor
Badian, nor Kishrun (a beverage made of coffee-husks), nor Tha'leb (Salep),
nor Mahleb, nor Paysuna, mor Moduna, nor wine, nor Kirsh-water (Wishnab), nor
pomegranate wine, nor date-wine, nor mulberry-wine, nor melon-wine, nor
cocoa-nut-wine, nor Awishle-wine (?) nor Ipme-wine nor Assilma-wine (of
suspended grapes), nor Banan wine, nor Beduin-wine, nor triple-wine
(Muthelleth), nor Muscat-wine, nor Fishfish-wine, nor Nardenk-wine, nor
Bozun-wine, nor Heml-wine, nor Arak, nor Kulfesh (iced cooled wine), nor
Khorlika, nor Firma, nor Sudina, nor Pelonia, nor Khardalie (mustard), nor
Balsji, nor Tustaghasa, nor Diamond-water, nor Minjel-water, nor beer, nor
cinnamon-water, nor sulpher-water, nor goidurme, nor opium, nor Beresh, nor
Nushdar, nor Jewarish, nor Mokim, nor Bairampasha, nor Sheranie, nor Benjlik,
nor Kara-pehlivan, nor love-pills (Habbi-ushaki), nor Ferah, nor Kakunji
electuary, nor Jihan-bakhsh electuary, nor Kaissun electuary, nor Misrune
electuary, nor philosopher's electuary, nor Pirejan electuary, nor Dilkuswha
electuary.
(Boy, I'm glad this guy wasn't on my tour--ed.)

Pg. 247:  The Sellers of Subaya (Subayajian)...
   The Mead (oxymel) makers (Balsujian)...
   The Arak-makers (Arakjian) are three hundred men, with one hundred shops.
It was first invented in Poland, where they extract spirits from all kinds of
plants.  The two kinds of brandies called Golefsin and Khorlika, are the most
noxious of all.  It is sin to get intoxicated with these kinds of Araks, but
to taste one or two drops is not illegal (Haram).
(Useful for the word "brandy"?--ed.)
   The Makers of the triple wine (Muthelletjian).  It was composed first by
Imam Zafer, and is made in the following way...

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 1:  He invited me to be his companion according to the maxim, "First the
companion, then the road"...

Pg. 17:  _The Eatables, Beverage and Fruits of Brussa_.
   The first is white bread of the kind called Sumun, which is as good as the
best (Pg. 18--ed.) of Constaninople; tghen that sort of bread called Chakil,
like white roses; the Gozlemeh, the Kerdeh, a kind of roast mutton dressed
over a stove (Tennur).  The sheep which are very fat come from Mount Olympus.
 The white Halva of Brussa is also celebrated.
   The beverages are the delicious water of the head fountain Bunar-bashi and
seventeen other principal spring; excellent coffee from Yemen, very good
buza, the sherbet Khanedan-beg (smiling Prince), that of Tierli-oghli,
Karan-filli and Shujab.

Pg. 47:  ...every Friday a Zerde Pilaw, and Yakhni (stewed meat)...

Pg. 48:  _Eatable and Beverages_.
...
   The fish which are worthy of mention are Lorek-belighi, Kefal-balighi
(Cephalus), the Kalkan-balighi (Rhombus), which if eaten by women renders
them prolific; the fish called Kiziljeh-tekerbalik, with a red head and
delicious to taste; the gold fish, the Sgombro which is taken in the season
Erbain (forty days).  But the most precious of all...is the Khamsi-balighi...

Pg. 49:  If the head of this fish, Khamsi-balighi, pronounced Khapsi-balighi,
is burnt, serpents and other venomous reptiles are killed by the smoke.  The
people use it during forty days in all their dishes, to which it gives a
peculiar flavour, it is thus used with yakhni, roasts, pies, and baklava
(mixed pies), a  dish called pilegi is made of it in the following manner,
the fish is first cleaned, then cut into slices on which is laid parsley and
celery, then another layer of fish, the best oil is then poured on it, and it
is cooked over the fire for one hour, it thus becomes quite a luminous dish,
which may be said to illuminate those who eat it.

Pg. 100:  From trhe district of Kaghla comes a sort of corn called
Dardevedishi, of which most excellent bread is made, called Levasha, Kerde,
Chakil...
   The sherbets called Khardalie, Buldakli, are exported into Persia; a
pleasant white beverage.

Pg. 113:  They make two kinds of pies here, one of chicken and the other of a
sort of vegetable called Cheresh; white and excellebnt pastry (Chorek), white
bread called Kolaj, and meat roasted in stoves, &c.  Their beverages are
Sherbet or Ribbes, and excellent Buza.

Pg. 137:  The provisions consist of the white bread called Kerde, and Sumun,
cracknels, pastry, roasts, chicken pies, forty different kinds of pilaw with
spices, the Herisse and sweetmeat, Palude.

Pg. 138:  Every year on the tenth of the month Moharrem, being the feast of
A'ashura, all the population of the town assemble under tents in this large
place, and during three days and nights cook many thousand dishes of A'ashura
(a kind of hotch-potch), in remembrance of the martyrs of Kerbela; these
dishes are distributed with an abundance of sugar-sherbet...

(How could OED not include these terms?  How could OED not use hundreds of
cites from this book?  Copies are in many libraries and the book is 170 years
old!  And articles like that "Ode to OED" discuss trivialities like
"mindfuck"!  Amazing--ed.)


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sun Jun  2 23:47:51 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 19:47:51 -0400
Subject: Dragon Naturally Speaking ("His wife could eat no lien")
In-Reply-To: <143.f58daa6.2a2bbb24@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.194751.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 2 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

#    Mark Mandel types might be interested in the article in today's NEW YORK
#POST, 2 June 2002, pg. 30 (www.nypost.com).
#
#SPOKEN:  Jack Sprat could eat no fat, his wife could eat no lean.  And so
#betwixt the two of them, they licked the platter clean.
        [...]

#   4 1/2 errors, on average, per sentence!

I believe that Clarke's Law says, "Any sufficiently advanced technology
is indistinguishable from a rigged demo." There should be a corollary:
"Any technology, no matter how advanced, can be made to look bad by a
rigged demo." This is such a case. What would you expect from dictating
this text to, say, a literate twelve-year-old who had not been raised
with nursery rhymes or any other texts earlier than, oh, 1970? "Betwixt"
is certainly not in the initial active vocabulary of either program. In
NatSpeak that means it cannot be recognized unless it's in a text that
the user has specified as a training sample, or until after the user has
corrected to it; thenceforward it will be in the active voc and
recognizeable, including in subsequent sessions. (This is something of a
simplification.) VV works similarly.

"Platter" is probably not in initial active voc either, and while "lean"
probably is, I expect that it is marked only as a verb, or maybe a verb
and an adjective, not a noun. And forget about the surname "Sprat", or
even the common noun "sprat" (a kind of fish) in initial active voc.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large
   former Senior Linguist, Dragon Systems, Inc.


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Mon Jun  3 01:18:52 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 20:18:52 -0500
Subject: Linguists like to argue!?
In-Reply-To: <3d.1f129941.2a2bd413@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.201852.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James,

I didn't pick other paragraphs because they were clearly speculative and
kinda fun.  What struck me in the paragraph in question was the idea that
IEists reject such relationships.

BTW, it's not logically necessary that IE was related to any of the groups
you list.  Basque, e.g., really has no known relatives.  We know that before
the spread of IE into Europe Basque covered a much larger area.  The Vosges
Mountains in eastern France have a Basque name, and there are other Basque
toponyms in Western Europe.  Larry Trask has pretty well put paid to the
arguments for relationships between Basque and NW Caucasian or other
Caucasian groups.  The linguistic complexity of the Caucasus, at least five
unrelated families, suggest, as Johanna Nichols has argued, that this is a
relic area that reflects multiple population movements.  The problems with
claims of distant relationship with Uralic, Afro-Asiatic, or Dravidian, to
mention the most frequent claims, include that, as Donald Ringe has argued,
the sound correspondences attested do not rise above the statistical level
of chance resemblence, that we can't clearly distinguish inheritance from
borrowing at that time depth, and that frequently the putative
correspondences simply aren't regular enough to base any reconstruction on.
All that said, people like Bomhard and Greenberg have demonstrated enough
correspondences in inflectional and derivational morphology to make claims
of genetic relationship impossible to dismiss out of hand, and Greenberg's
claims are much more far-reaching than Bomhard's, including a lot more
families in his Eurasian.  But whether Eurasian goes back to the last Ice
Age is doubtful.  We're stuck with the reality that our comparative methods
simply can't reliable take us back much more than 10-15k years at the
extreme outside, and a lot of comparativists would hesitate to go beyond
10k.  So until we have new methods that work, perhaps of Nichols' sort,
we're stuck with careful speculation.

Herb

You wrote:

I'm a little surprised that of all the items in my "proposal" you would pick
that paragraph to rebut.  I was at that point building a logical (though
quite tenous) chain of arguments that IE was necessarily related to
Finno-Ugrian, Semitic, and/or Basque, and I had to dispose of the argument
that IE was invented (no, better to say "came into existence") AFTER the
glaciers had started retreating from Northern Europe.

But yes you are right, the paragraph in question does set up a straw man
argument.  Being an amateur, I have never encountered any theories as to
what
early Europeans spoke during the latter parts of the Ice Ages, so I tried to
imagine the possible theories.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  3 07:50:27 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 03:50:27 EDT
Subject: Madrasah (15th century); Frenchification (1802)
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUN.2002.035027.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MADRASAH

MEMOIRS OF A JANISSARY
by Konstantin Mihailovic (b. ca. 1435)
translated by Benjamin Stolz
published under the auspices of the Joint Committee on Eastern EUrope,
American Council of Learned Societies
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
1975

Pg. 69:  Their temple is called a _metrese_, like our monastery.

Pg. 215 Note:  Konstantin's "The order which they call Dervishes" shows that
he did not grasp the generic meaning of the word; and "_medrese_" denotes an
Islamic religious school, not necessarily monastic.

(The revised OED has 1616 for "madrasah"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
FRENCHIFICATION

EXTRACTS OF THE JOURNALS AND CORRESPONDENCE OF MISS (MARY--ed.) BERRY
FROM THE YEAR 1783 to 1852
edited by Lady Theresa Lewis
in three volumes
London: Longmans, Green, and Co.
1865

Pg. 39 (1783):  ...the higher they jump the more _bravos_ or _bravas_ they
receive from the delighted pit.
(OED has 1761, then 1817 for "bravo"--ed.)

Pg. 132 (1784): Immediately below the summit we stopped at a chalet, a number
of wooden huts near together, resembling both outside and inside the views
and descriptions of houses in the South Sea Islands.
(See past "chalet" posts--ed.)

Pg. 236 (1790):  I asked in vain for (Pg. 237--ed.) her name; she was La
Prima Donna, and nobody knew more of her.
(OED has 1782, then 1812 for "prima donna"--ed.)

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 146 (1802):  ...I believe the expenses are defrayed by a club of men.  We
were told here we should see _les nouveau riches_,
(OED has 1813 for "nouveau riche"--ed.)

Pg. 190 (1802):  A _debutante_ (Mdlle. le Court) performed Amenaide very
badly indeed.
(OED has 1801 for "debutante"--ed.)

Pg. 252 (1803):  Chambery seemed neither the better nor the worse for its
"_Frenchification_."
(OED has 1834 for "Frenchification"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
CHOEREK

A JOURNEY TO ARZRUM
by Alexander Pushkin
translated by Birgitta Ingemanson
Ardis, Ann Arbor (MI)
1974

   This journey was made in 1829.  The translation was made about 1940,

Pg. 40:  The dark-eyed boys sing, jump about and somersault; the women dance
the _lezginka_.

Pg. 51:  Halfway, in an Armenian village, built in the mountains on the bank
of a little river, instead of dinner I ate the cursed Armenian bread,
_churek_, which is baked in the shape of a flat cake, half mixrdd with Ashes,
and for which the Turkish prisoner in the Darial Pass longed so.

Pg. 103 Notes):  _Lezginka_--"A courtshiip dance of the Caucasus mountains in
which the woman moves with graceful (Pg. 104--ed.)  ease while the man dances
wildly about her. (Eebster).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
FIRST CLASS

MISS JEMIMA'S SWISS JOURNAL
by Jemima Morrell
Routledge/Thoemmes Press, London
1998, reprinted from 1961 edition

Pg. 5:  The members of the Junior United Alpine Club, remembering the German
proverb that "None but Englishmen and madmen travel first class", were all
second-class passengers...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
SERVIAN PROVERBS

SERVIA OF THE SERVIANS
by Chedo Mijatovisch
London: Sir Isaac Pitnam & Sons
1915

Pg. 146:
   CHAPTER VIII
   SELECTION FROM THE SERVIAN PEOPLE'S PROVERBS

1.  If you wish to know what a man is, place him in authority.
5.  Better ever than never.
6.  Better something than nothing.

(100 Proverbs are here, for Fred Shapiro-types--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
   NETS in four.  Jack Nicholson gets sent off to a mental institution.


From mrgjb at SOVER.NET  Mon Jun  3 03:33:14 2002
From: mrgjb at SOVER.NET (Ruth Barton)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 20:33:14 -0700
Subject: Bangor Brownies (1908); Maine Sardines (1902)
In-Reply-To: <1aa.19bbaae.2a0082ea@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.203314.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You tease,  after reading through all that and not one recipe for all those
goodies!!!!!  SHAME!! Ruth






At 7:29 PM -0400 4/30/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>"Bangor, ME?  Why, I don't even know her!"
>--joke as old as the hills, but the "ME" is fairly recent with postal codes
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>---------------------------------------------
>BANGOR BROWNIES
>
>LOWNEY'S COOK BOOK
>prepared and revised by
>Maria Willett Howard
>Revised Edition
>The Walter M. Lowney Co., Boston
>1908
>
>INDEX
>Brownies, Bangor, 261
>   Lowney's, 278.
>
>
>    I went to the Library of Congress to look through the BANGOR DAILY NEWS,
>starting 1902, but did NOT find "Bangor Brownies."  The above "revised" book
>is 1908, but should be at least 1907.  I read the BDN through 1905.
>   DARE doesn't provide any help at all.
>   The web has various hits for Mildred "Brownie" Schrumpf, and she possibly
>will have a bio in the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD.  She was born in
>1903, graduated from the University of Maine in 1925 with a B.S. in home
>economics, and wrote a weekly column in the BANGOR DAILY NEWS from 1951-1993.
> She authored THE FLAVOR OF MAINE (1976) and MEMORIES FROM BROWNIE'S KITCHEN
>(1989).  However, she did not coin "brownie" as a toddler.
>
>15 February 1902, BANGOR DAILY NEWS, pg. 11, cols. 1-2:
>NICE THINGS MADE FROM CHOCOLATE. (...)
>CONVALESCENTS' DRINK...
>PIERRE BOLT'S CHOCOLATE...
>EGG CHOCOLATE...
>CHOCOLATE CUSTARDS...
>BAVARIAN CHOCOLATE CREAM...
>CHOCOLATE CANDIES...
>CHOCOLATE CAKE...
--
Ruth Barton
mrgjb at sover.net
Westminster, VT


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  3 14:50:31 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 10:50:31 EDT
Subject: Madrasah...; Stedman medical words
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUN.2002.105031.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

KVAS

Konstantin Mihailovic (b. ca. 1435)
MEMOIRS OF A JANISSARY
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
1975

Pg. 3:  They celebrate for three days and go about nevertheless without
drinking wine nor having any _kvas_.

(Forget this one--I was tired.  OED has 1553, then 1608 for "kvass."  The
transliteration on the opposite page has "kwasu"...The copyright page on the
book doesn't indicate it's older than 1963, but MISS JEMIMA'S SWISS JOURNAL,
a Thomas Cook tour book, has a "26th June 1863" date on page 5--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
STEDMAN MEDICAL WORDS

   The good people at Amazon.com have sent me an alert for a Stedman medical
word book.  Thomas Lathrop Stedman is given as the editor of all these books:

STEDMAN'S PSYCHIATRY/NEUROLOGY/NEUROSURGERY WORDS
STEDMAN'S ABBREVIATION, ACRONYMS & SYMBOLS
STEDMAN'S MEDICAL SPELLER
STEDMAN'S SURGERY WORDS
STEDMAN'S GI & GU WORDS, WITH NEPHROLOGY WORDS
STEDMAN'S PATHOLOGY & LAB MEDICINE WORDS
STEDMAN'S EQUIPMENT WORDS
STEDMAN'S ONCOLOGY WORDS
STEDMAN'S PLASTIC SURGERY/ENT/DENTISTRY WORDS

   Thomas Lathrop Stedman died in 1938.
   For a dead man, he sure is one very busy editor!


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Jun  4 01:39:33 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 20:39:33 -0500
Subject: "toke the wild hair"
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUN.2002.203933.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    The person who asked me about "toke the wild hair" (Linda) has
written to her distant relative (Theresa) asking about Theresa's use
of "toke the wild hair."
Below my signoff are Linda's latest e-mail to me and Theresa's response to her.

     Theresa sees "toke the wild hair" as a Cajun French expression.
But does such an expression actually exist in Cajun French? Perhaps
better: "Toke" means "inhale a joint or pipe of cannabis," and
according to Tony Thorne's _Dictionary of Contemporary Slang_, "this
has been a standard term in the marihuana and hashish smokers'
vocabulary since the late 1960s."

     "Wild hair" would then be the fibers of cannabis. So "toke the
wild hair" as used by Theresa ("you never thought about what you were
going to do, you just do it without thought of anything") possibly
referred originally to the spontaneous dropping of one's everyday
tasks to enjoy a smoke of marihuana/etc.

Gerald Cohen



(letter from Linda to me):

>
>Here's Theresa's reply to my questioning the use of "toke the wild hair."
>
>It is as I suspected - it means to just drop what one is doing and take off
>spontaneously to do something unrelated. ...
>
>
>Linda
>



(letter from Theresa to Linda, referred to just above):

>
>Linda,
>
>YOU are so funny!!!!!!  The phase "toke the wild hair" is a French saying.
>I have lived by hearing people say I toke the wild hair and did this or
>that????
>When you use this terminalogy it means that you never thought about what you
>were going to do you just do it, without thought of anything?  And really
>not to worry about the outcome of what you were going to do.   The
>French people use this especially in the shrimping, seafood
>industry.  As you can see I really dont use it often.  It is fun to
>use it sometimes.  The cajun people have a vocabulary of their own.
>It is a mixture of Prussian French and Cajun Louisiana French plus
>mixed with English, now you have a combination of some saying. In my
>case mix some Spanish in there and now you really have a
>combination. ...

>  Love Theresa


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Jun  4 03:23:50 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 23:23:50 -0400
Subject: "toke the wild hair"
In-Reply-To: <p04310100b921a17e7de2@[131.151.65.135]>
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUN.2002.232350.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ISTM that "toke" could be a misspelling/mishearing of "took". From the
informant, Theresa:

#>YOU are so funny!!!!!!  The phase "toke the wild hair" is a French saying.
#>I have lived by hearing people say I toke the wild hair and did this or
#>that????
#>When you use this terminalogy it means that you never thought about what you
#>were going to do you just do it, without thought of anything?  And really
#>not to worry about the outcome of what you were going to do.  The
#>French people use this especially in the shrimping, seafood
#>industry.  As you can see I really dont use it often.  It is fun to
#>use it sometimes.  The cajun people have a vocabulary of their own.
#>It is a mixture of Prussian French and Cajun Louisiana French plus
#>mixed with English, now you have a combination of some saying. In my
#>case mix some Spanish in there and now you really have a
#>combination. ...

Note, "it means that you never thought about...", past tense, consistent
with "toke" as = "took". Note also in general the somewhat erratic
English, and the implication in the last line that Theresa's native
language is Spanish, which makes the mishearing/misspelling more
plausible than it would be in a native English-speaker. (And "Prussian"
French?! Maybe "Parisian"?)

I think the spelling "toke" has led us off on a wild goose chase, to
change the species of the beast: I still think this is a hare in origin.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large

On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote:

#>YOU are so funny!!!!!!  The phase "toke the wild hair" is a French saying.
#>I have lived by hearing people say I toke the wild hair and did this or
#>that????
#>When you use this terminalogy it means that you never thought about what you
#>were going to do you just do it, without thought of anything?  And really
#>not to worry about the outcome of what you were going to do.   The
#>French people use this especially in the shrimping, seafood
#>industry.  As you can see I really dont use it often.  It is fun to
#>use it sometimes.  The cajun people have a vocabulary of their own.
#>It is a mixture of Prussian French and Cajun Louisiana French plus
#>mixed with English, now you have a combination of some saying. In my
#>case mix some Spanish in there and now you really have a
#>combination. ...
#
#>  Love Theresa
#


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  4 03:50:57 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 23:50:57 -0400
Subject: Radishes & Tomatoes ("Reds")
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUN.2002.235057.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   We have our "apples" (red on the outside, white on the inside) and "oreos" (black on the outside, white on the inside).  I found the following interesting, but I don't know how widespread it was.

SIX PRISONS AND TWO REVOLUTIONS:
ADVENTURES IN TRANS-CAUCASIA AND ANATOLIA, 1920-1921
by Oliver Baldwin
Garden City, NY: Doubleday, Page & Company
1925

Pg. 192:
   "We must keep Communist discipline.  No perfect state can exist with people who forget brotherhood."
   He told us that the amount of "radishes" far (Pg. 193--ed.) outnumbered the "tomatoes," and when I asked what he meant, he replied that the former were only "red" on the outside, and the latter were "red" all through.


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Tue Jun  4 11:18:19 2002
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 07:18:19 -0400
Subject: Prussian French?
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.071819.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Theresa wrote
>The cajun people have a vocabulary of their own.
>It is a mixture of Prussian French and Cajun Louisiana French plus
>mixed with English, now you have a combination of some saying. In my
>case mix some Spanish in there and now you really have a
>combination. ...

Prussian French?
_________________________________
"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
--Albert Einstein


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Jun  4 12:01:18 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:01:18 -0400
Subject: Radishes & Tomatoes ("Reds")
In-Reply-To: <036FADF4.1F042605.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.080118.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Apparently very widespread. In Poland in the early 70's a riddle went this way:

Q. Why is Poland like a radish.

A. Because it has only a thin layer of red on the outside.

dInIs

>    We have our "apples" (red on the outside, white on the inside)
>and "oreos" (black on the outside, white on the inside).  I found
>the following interesting, but I don't know how widespread it was.
>
>SIX PRISONS AND TWO REVOLUTIONS:
>ADVENTURES IN TRANS-CAUCASIA AND ANATOLIA, 1920-1921
>by Oliver Baldwin
>Garden City, NY: Doubleday, Page & Company
>1925
>
>Pg. 192:
>    "We must keep Communist discipline.  No perfect state can exist
>with people who forget brotherhood."
>    He told us that the amount of "radishes" far (Pg. 193--ed.)
>outnumbered the "tomatoes," and when I asked what he meant, he
>replied that the former were only "red" on the outside, and the
>latter were "red" all through.

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  4 12:29:20 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:29:20 EDT
Subject: Swiss Cookery (Kuchli, the Right Stuff)
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.082920.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Quickly, some items during an unsuccessful roesti/raclette search.

AN OBERLAND CHALET
by Edith Elmer Wood
New York: Wessels & Bissel Co.
1910

Pg. 22:  It (honey--ed.) is the invariable accompaniment of the Swiss
breakfast, which consists for the rest of rolls and butter, coffee and milk.

Pg. 67:  But we felt it was proved that the quartette was of the "right
stuff" and could safely venture on a fortnight's pedestrian trip.

OUR LIFE IN THE SWISS HIGHLANDS
by John Addington Symonds and his daughter Margaret
second edition
London: Adam and Charles Black
1907
(first edition 1892?)

Pg. 136:  Pudding, as _Mehlspeisen_, of various sorts, completed the bill of
fare.  Among these, what the people call _Pitzokel_--that is, something like
thin pancakes cut into long narrow ribbands--was conspicuous.

Pg. 136:  An ancient pack of cards was then produced, and the evening was
spent in the thrilling pursuit of "Schwarzer Peter."

Pg. 260:  The board was tesselated with plates of birnen-brod or eier-brod,
kuchli and cheese and butter; and George stirred grampampuli in a mighty (Pg.
261--ed.) metal bowl.  For the uninitiated, it may be needful to explain
these Davos delicacies.  Birnen-brod is what the Scotch would call a "bun,"
or massive cake, composed of sliced pears, almonds, spices, and a little
flour.  Eier-brod is a saffron-coloured sweet bread, made with eggs; and
kuchli is a kind of pastry, crisp and flimsy, fashioned into various devices
of cross, star, and scroll.  Grampampuli is simply brandy burnt with sugar,
the most unsophisticated punch I ever drank from tumblers.


SWISS SUMMER
by Charles Graves
London: NIcholson & Watson Ltd.
1938

Pg. 15:  He told me to try the "Zugerrotel" (a kind of mullet) and cheese
fondu.

Pg. 46:  ...with wood mushrooms and pineapple _crepes_.

Pg. 54:  They have another specialty too.  This is _Bindenfleisch_.  It is
smoked and dried beef, dark red in colour, and cut like a wafer.

Pg. 95:  A _Knickerbein_ consists of cherry brandy, syrup, and egg yolk, and
certainly puts hair on your chest.  A longer and still more formidable drink
which they give you here is named after the Piz Aela (Hotel--ed.) itself.  It
is concocted of vanilla ice, chocolate ice, curacao, cognac, and kirsch.
Wow!

Pg. 121:  The _gerla_ is a huge wicker-work basket looking like an inverted
Chianti flask; the _zoccoli_ are the wooden clogs...

Pg. 247:  _Bernerplatte_--with its ham, sausages, boiled beef, sauerkraut and
potatoes.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Tue Jun  4 12:40:49 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:40:49 -0400
Subject: Formal Language for Analyzing Contracts
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.084049.0400.>

Nick Szabo has written a preliminary draft of a paper discussing a
programming-like language to analyze contracts. Among other things, he uses
a contract from Genoa, written June 23 in 1271, to demonstrate how it would
apply to damage clauses.

http://szabo.best.vwh.net/contractlanguage.html

--

Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
http://www.worldnewyork.org/
646 296 2260


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Tue Jun  4 12:55:01 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:55:01 -0400
Subject: Denial of Responsibility (DoR) Attacks
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.085501.0400.>

Coined for the computing world, but applicable in politics as well: Denial
of Responsbility (DoR) attacks, patterned after Denial of Service (DoS)
attacks.

http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/weblog/view/wlg/1500

"DoR attacks used to be of a simple, garden-variety type where a computer
manufacturer obscures the fact it has shipped a system with bugs (sometimes
known to the company in advance). More recent DoR attacks include the
inclusion of "cool features" that benefit only a few curious experimenters
but open the door to serious intrusions."


--

Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
http://www.worldnewyork.org/
646 296 2260


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Jun  4 12:59:56 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:59:56 -0400
Subject: "toke the wild hair"
In-Reply-To: <p04310100b921a17e7de2@[131.151.65.135]>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.085956.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I doubt that there is any marijuana reference here.

I still like "toke" = "took". Google search for "I toke the" turns up >100
hits where "toke" clearly means "took" ("toke the photo", "toke the
course", "toke the train", etc. etc.); only a few where "toke" = "smoke"!
Some of the items appear to be written by Germans, Swedes, Hollanders, etc.
("Toke" apparently was commonly written for "took" in Middle English, BTW.)

If one desires a foreign word, French "toqué" = "crazy"/"infatuated" fits
fine. Or Spanish "tocar"/"toque" = "touch" (verb/noun) (probably the
ancestor of the Marijuana "toke" BTW), "tocado" = "crazy". (Cf. English
"smitten", "touched".)

But I think "wild hair" here is clearly English slang, and virtually
identical (in the sense "wild impulse/notion/whim") to a conventional usage
in general US English slang, so I prefer "toke" to be English too, even if
it's nonstandard/erroneous English ("toke the wild hair" = "took the wild
hair" in place of "got a wild hair" seems to me to be a natural for one
who's not a native Anglophone). As I said before, the origin of "wild hair"
in this sense is mysterious to me, and perhaps it was indeed once "wild
hare" or so.

-- Doug Wilson


From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Tue Jun  4 15:37:10 2002
From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 11:37:10 -0400
Subject: Denial of Responsibility (DoR) Attacks
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.113710.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I suppose then this web page models a type of "Assertion of Entitlement"
(AoE) attack?

http://www.microsoft.com/freedomtoinnovate/default.asp


Grant Barrett wrote:
>
> Coined for the computing world, but applicable in politics as well: Denial
> of Responsbility (DoR) attacks, patterned after Denial of Service (DoS)
> attacks.
>
> http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/weblog/view/wlg/1500
>
> "DoR attacks used to be of a simple, garden-variety type where a computer
> manufacturer obscures the fact it has shipped a system with bugs (sometimes
> known to the company in advance). More recent DoR attacks include the
> inclusion of "cool features" that benefit only a few curious experimenters
> but open the door to serious intrusions."
>
> --
>
> Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
> gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
> http://www.worldnewyork.org/
> 646 296 2260

--
 .............................................
.          D r e w  D a n i e l s o n         .
.          <andrew.danielson at cmu.edu>         .
. Admin for Krogh, Gabriel, Fedder & Rajkumar .
. Carnegie Mellon University • ECE Department .
. 5000 Forbes Avenue  •  Pittsburgh, PA 15213 .
. +1 412 268-2188 Voice • +1 412 268-3890 Fax .
.        http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~dmunk        .
 .............................................
 A fool with a sense of his foolishness is --
 at least to that extent -- wise.
  -- Dhammapada


From brad at BSBEATY.COM  Tue Jun  4 15:40:44 2002
From: brad at BSBEATY.COM (Brad Beaty)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:40:44 -0700
Subject: qohee
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.084044.0700.>

I need some help.  I am an attorney in Virginia who gets email from another Virginia attorney who uses "qohee" as her email name.  My client has asked me what it means.  I have some vague thought that it was some sort of colonial slang for hillbilly.  I haven't found "qohee" anywhere.  Can anyonyone help?  Thanks


BRADLEE S. BEATY, Attorney at Law
530 East Main Street, Suite 600
Richmond, Virginia 23219
TEL (804) 643-6343 FAX (804) 643-6380, brad at bsbeaty.com
This e-mail may contain attorney confidential/privileged information and should be read only by the named recipient(s).  Any use of this e-mail by others is prohibited.  Please notify of erroneous receipt by return e-mail to admin at bsbeaty.com



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Jun  4 16:57:36 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 12:57:36 -0400
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.125736.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Someone asked on a newsgroup about the origin of the phrase "gone all
pear-shaped":
        >>>

I know *what* this phrase means, at least from context--an expression
for a plan gone awry.  (BBC America shows Ground Force, where I heard
Alan Titchmarsh utter it.)
        <<<

Followups have suggested
 1. the devolution of the male physique in middle age,
 2. what happens when a balloon begins to deflate (quoting Partridge),
and
 3. the discovery that the Earth is not only not spherical, it's not
cleanly spheroidal either

Any data or other reasonable ideas? (Note: If replying off-list [though
why would you?], remove the obvious spam-blocker from my edress.)

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Jun  4 17:03:24 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:03:24 -0400
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206041251260.377243-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.130324.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote:

#Any data or other reasonable ideas? (Note: If replying off-list [though
#why would you?], remove the obvious spam-blocker from my edress.)

Hm. No spam-blocker this time. Odd things happen when my newsreader and
my mailreader mix.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun  4 17:05:28 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:05:28 -0400
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206041251260.377243-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.130528.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 12:57:36PM -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote:
> Someone asked on a newsgroup about the origin of the phrase "gone all
> pear-shaped":
>         >>>
>
> I know *what* this phrase means, at least from context--an expression
> for a plan gone awry.  (BBC America shows Ground Force, where I heard
> Alan Titchmarsh utter it.)
>         <<<

The OED files on this suggest that the phrase _go pear-shaped_
'go wrong; go amiss' is originally R.A.F. slang.

> Any data or other reasonable ideas? (Note: If replying off-list [though
> why would you?], remove the obvious spam-blocker from my edress.)

Either my ability to detect spam has gone quite pear-shaped, or you
need to reconfigure your mailer to make sure your desired spam-
blocker is indeed included as part of your address.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Jun  4 17:07:09 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 18:07:09 +0100
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206041251260.377243-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.180709.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is a _very_ common British phrase.

> Followups have suggested
>  1. the devolution of the male physique in middle age,
>  2. what happens when a balloon begins to deflate (quoting Partridge),
> and
>  3. the discovery that the Earth is not only not spherical, it's not
> cleanly spheroidal either

I think the most likely/closest is (2).  Something that's gone all
pear-shaped is something that should have had a nice structure, but entropy
has had its way. (I think I can use the word 'entropy' that way.)

I most frequently hear it in the context of people's Scrabble games (since
I have an unreasonable amount of discussion about Scrabble games).  You
will have started well, but then start picking up lots of I's and U's at
which point you say "I was doing well but now it's gone all pear-shaped on
me".

There's another theory at:
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/pear_shaped.html

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun  4 17:08:20 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:08:20 -0400
Subject: qohee
In-Reply-To: <20020604154044.50450.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.130820.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 08:40:44AM -0700, Brad Beaty wrote:
> I need some help.  I am an attorney in Virginia who gets email from
>another Virginia attorney who uses "qohee" as her email name.  My
>client has asked me what it means.  I have some vague thought that it
>was some sort of colonial slang for hillbilly.  I haven't found
>"qohee" anywhere.  Can anyonyone help?  Thanks

Is there any reason you can't just ask the other attorney? It
seems the best way in this case and nothing about your
description has suggested that doing so would be embarrassing,
personal, or the like.

Jesse Sheidlower


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Tue Jun  4 17:41:18 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 18:41:18 +0100
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206041251260.377243-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.184118.0100.>

> Someone asked on a newsgroup about the origin of the phrase "gone all
> pear-shaped":

I had a go at answering a question about this about a year ago (see
<http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pea2.htm>). There have been
many suggestions for a source in various things that are literally
pear-shaped, though none convincingly explain how the expression
changed from being literal to figurative. It seems to date from the
1960s.

A common explanation, the one accepted by Oxford Dictionaries, is
that it originated in Royal Air Force slang. However, nobody there
or anywhere else seems to know why. Some say that it may have been
applied to the efforts of pilots to do aerobatics, such as loops.
It is notoriously difficult (I am told) to get manoeuvres like this
even roughly circular, and instructors would describe the resulting
distorted route of the aircraft as 'pear-shaped'.

I'm not at all sure I even begin to believe this story!


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Tue Jun  4 17:52:25 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 18:52:25 +0100
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.185225.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would agree with Lynne Murphy:

> Something that's gone all
> pear-shaped is something that should have had a nice structure, but
entropy
> has had its way. (I think I can use the word 'entropy' that way.)

It seems to link, literally and punningly, to the idea that 'the bottom has
dropped out' of the situation.

Jonathon Green


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Tue Jun  4 18:06:05 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:06:05 -0400
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
In-Reply-To: <20020604170528.GB25302@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.140605.0400.>

On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 12:57:36PM -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote:
>Any data or other reasonable ideas? (Note: If replying off-list [though
>why would you?], remove the obvious spam-blocker from my edress.)

In trying to figure out what your spam protections are, I found this line in
your mail header:

>X-Authentication-Warning: shell01.TheWorld.com: mam owned process doing -bs

I think I know what that means, but I'm hoping it's open to
reinterpretation: "Warning: Momma's gonna cut the crap."


--

Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
http://www.worldnewyork.org/
646 296 2260


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Tue Jun  4 18:07:03 2002
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:07:03 -0500
Subject: qohee
In-Reply-To: <20020604170820.GA27307@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.130703.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's in DARE at "cohee," thought by many to come from "quoth he."  We've
defined it as 'An inhabitant of the mountains of western Virginia or
Pennsylvania."

At 01:08 PM 6/4/02 -0400, you wrote:
>On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 08:40:44AM -0700, Brad Beaty wrote:
> > I need some help.  I am an attorney in Virginia who gets email from
> >another Virginia attorney who uses "qohee" as her email name.  My
> >client has asked me what it means.  I have some vague thought that it
> >was some sort of colonial slang for hillbilly.  I haven't found
> >"qohee" anywhere.  Can anyonyone help?  Thanks
>
>Is there any reason you can't just ask the other attorney? It
>seems the best way in this case and nothing about your
>description has suggested that doing so would be embarrassing,
>personal, or the like.
>
>Jesse Sheidlower


From dave at WILTON.NET  Tue Jun  4 18:36:14 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 11:36:14 -0700
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
In-Reply-To: <4287284.3232202829@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.113614.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I think the most likely/closest is (2).  Something that's gone all
> pear-shaped is something that should have had a nice
> structure, but entropy
> has had its way. (I think I can use the word 'entropy' that way.)

Although it does work in a metaphorical sense, I'm not sure entropy is quite
right. It's changing shape, not descending into a lower state of energy.
"Gravity" would seem more appropriate, or perhaps "pastry" if we're talking
about people.


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Jun  4 18:44:02 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:44:02 +0100
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
In-Reply-To: <000b01c20bf6$b5cf3070$0300a8c0@HPN5290>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.194402.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Tuesday, June 4, 2002 11:36 am -0700 Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET>
wrote:

>> I think the most likely/closest is (2).  Something that's gone all
>> pear-shaped is something that should have had a nice
>> structure, but entropy
>> has had its way. (I think I can use the word 'entropy' that way.)
>
> Although it does work in a metaphorical sense, I'm not sure entropy is
> quite right. It's changing shape, not descending into a lower state of
> energy. "Gravity" would seem more appropriate, or perhaps "pastry" if
> we're talking about people.

I was thinking of the 'measure of disorder or randomness in a system'
(AHD4), since gravity has little to do with Scrabble games!

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun  4 18:50:04 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:50:04 -0400
Subject: qohee
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020604130336.024c0160@students.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.145004.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:07 PM -0500 6/4/02, Joan Houston Hall wrote:
>It's in DARE at "cohee," thought by many to come from "quoth he."  We've
>defined it as 'An inhabitant of the mountains of western Virginia or
>Pennsylvania."
>
>At 01:08 PM 6/4/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 08:40:44AM -0700, Brad Beaty wrote:
>>>  I need some help.  I am an attorney in Virginia who gets email from
>>>another Virginia attorney who uses "qohee" as her email name.  My
>>>client has asked me what it means.  I have some vague thought that it
>>>was some sort of colonial slang for hillbilly.  I haven't found
>>>"qohee" anywhere.  Can anyonyone help?  Thanks
>>
>>Is there any reason you can't just ask the other attorney? It
>>seems the best way in this case and nothing about your
>>description has suggested that doing so would be embarrassing,
>>personal, or the like.
>>
>>Jesse Sheidlower

Well, the only relevant "qohee" I could google (there was an
irrelevant one) is the userid of someone posting on a
Charlottesville, VA board discussion of local pizza places, and I
deduce that it's the attorney in question.  If so, either her
tastebuds or the local pizza situation in Charlottesville leave
something to be desired, since she's plumping for Papa John's, which
I assume refers to a branch of that franchiser.

larry,
from good old New Haven, the ex-birthplace of pizza


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Jun  4 22:59:27 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 18:59:27 -0400
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
In-Reply-To: <B92279CD.4575%gbarrett@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.185927.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, Grant Barrett wrote:

#In trying to figure out what your spam protections are, I found this line in
#your mail header:
#
#>X-Authentication-Warning: shell01.TheWorld.com: mam owned process doing -bs

BBBBBBTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!

-- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname
     http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  5 00:57:38 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 20:57:38 EDT
Subject: Angora (1834); Albin Krebs & the Big Apple
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.205738.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ANGORA

NARRATIVE OF TRAVELS IN EUROPE, ASIA, AND AFRICA,
IN THE SEVENTEENTH CENTURY
by Evliya Efendi
translated from the Turkish by the Ritter Joseph von Hammer
London:  Printed for the Oriental Trnslation Fund of Great Britain and
Ireland
sold by Parbury, Allen, & Co
1834

   Yes, there's more in this book.
   OED has 1819 for "Angora cat" and 1833 for "Angora goat."  Thus, this
translation--175 years later--is nearly an antedate for "angora."  Some
people think the name of Turkey's capital, Ankara, comes from Angora, but
that's another etymology.

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 232:
   The hair is then worked into Shalloons, and both men and women are busy at
making or selling them.  The Franks tried to transport the goats of Angora
into their own country, but God be praised! they degenerated into common
goats, and the stuff wove from their hair was no Suf (Shalloon).  They then
took the hair of the Angora-goat and tried to work it into Sof, but were
never able to give it the true lustre (Maj).  They now make of it for their
monks a kind of black shalloon, which however has neither colour nor lustre.
The inhabitants of Angora say that the exclusive working of fine shalloon is
granted them by the miracles of Haji Bairam, and the water and air.  Indeed
the sof (Shalloon) of Angora is the most famous in the world; the chalk also
of Angora is renowned.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
ALBIN KREBS & THE BIG APPLE

   In today's (Tuesday's) NEW YORK TIMES, you will find this little item:

_Albin Krebs, 73, Times Obituary Writer, Dies_

   And you'll go right past it.  But for me, it sure brings back old
memories.
   In 1975, "the Big Apple" was fast becoming the hot new name for New York
City.  Someone on the Times was assigned to do the definitive article.  That
someone was Albin Krebs.
   Krebs wrote, in 1975, that "the Big Apple" was popularized by Damon
Runyon.
   Now, Krebs could have stepped into the New York Public Library and filled
out a call slip for RUNYONESE: THE MIND AND CRAFT OF DAMON RUNYON (1965) by
Jean Wagner.  Had he done so, he'd have found a long list of Runyonese, with
"Big Apple" never mentioned.  About two years later, William Safire called
"the Big Apple" a "Runyonesque" phrase.
   In 1995, former NYC Convention & Visitors Bureau President Charles Gillett
died.  The obituary writer was James Barron, who pulled the twenty-year-old
Krebs article out of the Times archives and used it in the Gillett obituary
as fact.
   When I wrote in to the Times--well, you know!
   And so it is that the New York Times can and did ignore the nickname of
its own city, and publish as fact--TWICE!--something based on no evidence
whatsoever.
   Krebs retired in 1989 and Gerald Cohen published his BIG APPLE book in
1991, so it's not entirely Krebs' fault.


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Wed Jun  5 02:10:09 2002
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:10:09 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.221009.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is there a more useful term for racial profiling?
There are certain phrases that shut down rational debate. Say Big
Business to a liberal or Socialist to a conservative and images are
dredged up in their minds that hampers rational discussion. "Racial
profiling" is one of those phrases, to a great extent because of excesses
of our law enforcement community which have nothing to do with our
present situation.
On the other hand, we know very well that there are people out to kill
Americans, and we know that these people are, almost without exception,
people in a small age range, of a certain religion, and from identifiable
countries. Isn't it just common sense to take more care with people
arriving in the United States who fit these parameters than, say, an
elderly woman from Norway?
There is a huge debate now, because of the words used, on what seems to
me to be a pretty straightforward matter . Might the careful
consideration of people in a small cohort better be called something else
that would not automatically call up memories of injustices to an
entirely different group of people.

D


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Wed Jun  5 09:52:05 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 05:52:05 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
In-Reply-To: <20020604.221014.-316031.7.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.055205.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

><))));>Is there a more useful term for racial profiling?
><))));>

Well, every term is useful in it's own way, depending on the intent of the
speaker.  And WEB DeBois warns of the dangers of getting into divisive
fights over changing terms--he sites nigger, black, colored, etc--while
avoiding changing the associated underlying behavior that is the real
problem.  According to WEBD the danger is to the people who are fighting to
change the term, of their being seduced into believing they are actually
changing something important while expending vast amounts of energy and
political capital in the process.

I'm not going to enter the racial profiling debate other than to note that
it's use has spilled over from it's origins describing police street
activity in a, mostly, white/black racial context and is now being used in
several arenas dealing with all people of color, particularly those of
middle eastern heritage, entering the country, especially at airports.  The
constant in this use is the police powers of the government against xxx
group.  In these uses profiling is pretty much synonymous with stereotyping
but with, from the police perspective, an added scientific or
pseudoscientific base.

Personally, I think profiling is a pretty useful all round term that is not
too pejorative.

The FBI profiles serial murderers (think Silence of the Lambs and most of
the Kay Scarpetta stories) & bank robbers.  But universities have a cross
sectional profile of their student body--both actual and ideal as do
admissions committees and businesses have profiles of their client base.
Marketers profile the population and pitch us.  Medicos match patients
against different disease profiles.

rhk


From bob at BOBFELTON.COM  Wed Jun  5 11:11:09 2002
From: bob at BOBFELTON.COM (Bob Felton)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 07:11:09 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.071109.0400.BOB@BOBFELTON.COM>

'Racial Profiling' has always been an inaccurate - and in my estimation, deliberately dishonest - expression.  It is not races that are profiled, but crimes.

Robert M. Felton, P.E.
bob at bobfelton.com
www.bobfelton.com


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.368 / Virus Database: 204 - Release Date: 5/29/2002


From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Wed Jun  5 11:33:26 2002
From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 07:33:26 -0400
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.073326.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

See -
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/020605/5/mum9.html


Actually, I have found no evidence that the Lt. Col. Steve Butler who is
the subject of this article has any background in linguistics, but he's
getting canned from an academic administration position at the Army's
Defense Language Institute in Monterey, CA.

Perhaps this is the installation where the Army researches and develops
it's formidible acronyms?


--
 .............................................
.          D r e w  D a n i e l s o n         .
.          <andrew.danielson at cmu.edu>         .
.        http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~dmunk        .
 .............................................
 A fool with a sense of his foolishness is --
 at least to that extent -- wise.
  -- Dhammapada


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun  5 11:37:27 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 07:37:27 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
In-Reply-To: <005201c20c81$b2b3af70$51295d0c@Office>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.073727.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, Bob Felton wrote:

>'Racial Profiling' has always been an inaccurate - and in my estimation,
deliberately dishonest - expression.  It is not races that are profiled,
but crimes.

I don't know about <deliberate>, but I know that is some cases it is
neither races nor crimes that are profiled. Rather, it is
possible/probable characteristics of criminals. The term "linguistic
profiling" is sometimes accurate for the kind of profiling that can be
useful.

Bethany


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  5 14:06:39 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:06:39 -0400
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.100639.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Wed, 5 Jun 2002  7:32:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Drew Danielson <andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU> writes:

>See -
>http://ca.news.yahoo.com/020605/5/mum9.html
>
>
>Actually, I have found no evidence that the Lt. Col. Steve Butler who is
>the subject of this article has any background in linguistics, but he's
>getting canned from an academic administration position at the Army's
>Defense Language Institute in Monterey, CA.
>
>Perhaps this is the installation where the Army researches and develops
>it's formidible acronyms?

Wash your mouth out with soap.

The Defense Language Institute, at the Presidio of Monterey, is DOD's school for teaching foreign languages, and from all I have heard it is a highly regarded school.  It traces its origins back to the Army Language School, which was founded in "Word War II" [unconscious typo, too good to correct], long after acronyms had become a long established military/naval tradition.

There is a long tradition in the US armed forces, well known to EVERY serving officer, that soldiers/sailors/airmen do NOT publicly engage in partisan politics.

The Web Page you cited contains the following extremely ill-informed quote:
     "Butler's suspension was apparently based on Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which says that any commissioned officer who uses "contemptuous words" against the president or other senior officials may be punished by a court-martial.
     "The Monterey Herald said that the last Article 88 court-martial came in 1965 when an Army second lieutenant was prosecuted for taking part in an anti-war protest in Texas..."

If the Monterey Herald had bothered to do any research, they would have found that no less a legendary figure than Douglas McArthur had gotten canned by his Commander-in-Chief for shooting his mouth off in public.  Another general, I believe his name was Walker, got canned circa 1962 for partisan politicking (if memory serves, it was for taking John Birch Society positions, so it's not only liberals who get punished.)

Going back to the Civil War, several generals were kicked out of their commands for playing politics: George B. McClellan, Fitz-John Porter (who was court-martialled on a trumped-up charge), John McClernand (publicly criticizing General Grant).  Grant himself almost got fired for a certain anti-Semitic statement, and old War-Is-Hell Sherman got into some Hell of his own for merely making a politically bad guess when the Confederate general facing him offered to surrender.

For a more recent example, President Clinton, during the Lewinsky scandal, ordered a missile attack on al-Qaeda.  There was much controversy over his action, with many civilians saying "he needed this war on terrorism" and "he needed something to hang his presidency on."  (Both these quotes, admittedly out of context, are from LTC Butler's letter.)  Yet did you hear any criticism from active-duty military?  No, even though many in DOD thought it was an ill-conceived project.  They were good soldiers; they kept their mouths shut and let the civilians do the debating.

Or look at it this way: suppose you were the president of a college and some vice-chancellor working for you had such a letter to the editor published.  Wouldn't you wonder if your institution would be better off without him?

LTC Butler knew the rules, and knowingly violated them.  I have no tears for him.

IF Butler had any evidence NOT already in the newspapers that "Bush knew about the impending attacks on America. He did nothing to warn the American people..." then there are channels he could go through, the most obvious of which is to inform his Congresspersons.  As a matter of fact, IF Butler had evidence NOT yet known to the general public, the last thing he should do is to write a letter to the editor.  It can be argued that his patriotic duty would be to tell his Congressperson, not the newspapers.

    - Jim Landau (who thinks that civilian control of the military is a GOOD THING)

P.S.  linguistic note: in the Armed Forces, the word "Monterey" is shorthand for "Defense Language Institute", which, by the way, has the acronym "DEFLANGINST".


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  5 15:38:44 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:38:44 -0400
Subject: Computer proverbs for Fred Shapiro
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.113844.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Big-Endian versus Little Endian"

This phrase (if not the exact words) goes back to the Lilliput section of Gulliver's Travels, where Swift satirizes the religious struggles of England in the 1600's by implying they were over the question of which end of an egg to crack ("How many Angles can dance on the end of an egg?").  Dr. Seuss used the same idea in a satire on "buttered side up" versus "buttered side down" (I don't remember the book title, but the same satire appears in Seussical).  I don't know whether Seuss got the idea on his own or was imitating Swift.

The computer community picked up "Big-endian" and "Little-Endian" as the nomenclature for a very real computer problem.  A computer can work with numbers stored small-end-first or stored large-end-first, and it is up to the "architect" (designer) of a computer which technique to use.  This means that when "porting" software from one computer to another, if the two computers differ on which end is in front, you may have a big headache.

Another term for this problem is "NUXI", because if "UNIX" is stored as two two-byte numbers and you transfer it from a Big-Endian computer to a Little-Endian or vice versa, the U and N get scrambled, and the I and X get scrambled separately.

---------------------------------------------------------

"The key, the whole key, and nothing but the key, so help me Codd"

This odd phrase is neither a satire nor a spoof; it is of all things a mnemonic.  Back in the 1970's Edgar F. Codd of IBM worked out the theory of relational databases.  Part of his theory was a set of three rules for the structure of the "key field", that is, the data item that uniquely identifies each data record.  The above quote provides a surprisingly near-exact description of Codd's three rules.

If you want to know what the three rules are, rather than ask me to explain you should check any good textbook on database management systems.

Nowadays database systems like Microsoft Access and its competitors use Codd's rules but bury them so deeply under a GUI interface that only serious computer scientists delve into the gooey details.  It was not always so.  As late as 1984 (when I was in systems procurement) there was considerable debate on whether Codd's ideas were worth implementing.

I learned the mnemonic from my boss in 1988, when I was taking a graduate class in database theory.

     - James A. Landau
       systems engineer


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Jun  5 16:06:03 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:06:03 -0700
Subject: Pita,
 Zilabka (1925); Mezzlik (1904); Halva from Philadelphia, Turkey
In-Reply-To: <077642D1.31D5A2E7.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.090603.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mezzlik, probably an error for mezelik which is meze + lIk (capital i
stands for either i, undotted i, u or "u depending on vowel harmony). The
suffix -lIk generally makes nouns abstract. So mezelik = "appetizers" or
things appropriate to be eaten as appetizers, or ingredients you might use
in making appetizers. Cf. Turkish "salata" (salad) "salatal[undotted i]k"
"salad stuff", "salad fixins" etc.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Sat, 1 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> MEZZLIK
>
> TURKISH LIFE IN TOWN AND COUNTRY
> by Lucy M. J. Garnett
> G. P. Putnam's Sons, New York and London
> The Knickerbocker Press
> 1904 (1911 edition)
>
> Pg. 331 (Glossary):
> _Mezzlik_--a _hors d'oeuvre_.
> (Mezzlik=Meze?  If so, this antedates that by about 10 years and is useful
for the etymology of "meze"--ed.)
>


From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Wed Jun  5 16:23:04 2002
From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:23:04 -0400
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.122304.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"James A. Landau" wrote:
>
> >Perhaps this is the installation where the Army researches and develops
> >it's formidible acronyms?
>
> Wash your mouth out with soap.

Sorry, just having some fun at the expense of the "Defense Language
Institute Foreign Language Center (DLIFLC) and Presidio of  Monterey
(POM), [which] is the primary foreign language training institution
within the Department of Defense (DoD)".  Of course, I knew that these
are all initialisms and not acronyms.

> LTC Butler knew the rules, and knowingly violated them.  I have no tears for him.

Which could lead to some frame- or event-level questions - What
compelled him to take this out of the frame of interpersonal speech and
into the frame of a 'letter to the editor'?  How did the facts that this
language act was likely to result in sanctions, and that the topic did
not directly intersect his professional position, play into his
decision-making?  Did his proximity to retirement make him feel it was
appropriate or safe for him to participate in the body politic in this
manner?  Was it merely bad judgement on the part of a frustrated
Democrat in the military, or was it a calculated event (and if the
latter, to what end)?  However this worked, no tears here either.


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Jun  5 16:28:36 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:28:36 -0700
Subject: Evliya Efendi's 17th Century Travels (continued)
In-Reply-To: <168.e7fc62c.2a2bdbb4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.092836.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not exactly dialect, not exactly American but:

FWIW, there are a number of trades mentioned in this post (which I didn't
include because of its length). They have the form "XXXXjian" like
sherbetjian (sherbet sellers), salotjian (salad sellers) dolmajian (dolma
makers, farcers). The words all break down as [noun]+ ji (mod. ci; suffix
means agent, maker or seller connected with that noun) + an (actually
[macron]an; Persian plural suffix). Evliya seems to be rather fond of
using the Persian pl. suffix instead of the Turkish plural -ler/lar in
some contexts.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Jun  5 16:33:53 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:33:53 -0400
Subject: Computer proverbs for Fred Shapiro
In-Reply-To: <5A9E5188.59D050D2.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.123353.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James A. Landau wrote:
[...]
>  Nowadays database systems like Microsoft Access and its competitors
> use Codd's rules but bury them so deeply under a GUI interface that
> only serious computer scientists delve into the gooey details.  It
> was not always so.  As late as 1984 (when I was in systems
> procurement) there was considerable debate on whether Codd's ideas
> were worth implementing.

Maybe I've just been spending a little too much time on MySQL
programming lately, but normalization issues are still a huge
part of database design. I don't think it's at all accurate to
say that "only serious computer scientists" are concerned with
it. Fine, regular desktop Access or FileMaker Pro users probably
aren't concerning themselves with normalization, but it's by no
means a marginal concern.

Jesse Sheidlower


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  5 16:57:53 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:57:53 -0400
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.125753.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:23:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Drew Danielson <andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU> writes:

     <deletions in the following>
>"Defense Language Institute Foreign Language Center (DLIFLC)
> Presidio of  Monterey (POM)
> Department of Defense (DoD)".
>
>Of course, I knew that these
>are all initialisms and not acronyms.

Considering some of the languages taught at Monterey, are you sure "DLIFLC" is not a pronounceable acronym?
    /dih-lih-FILK/
That sounds like something Mark Mandel would be singing.

"POM" is not an acronym that I know of, although there is "MOP" ("Ministry of Propaganda").  In World War II it had two other meanings:
   "POMM" (not sure of the spelling) - a brand of powdered potatoes
   "pom-pom" (onomatopeic, I am told, not the thing cheerleaders use) - either a 20-mm or a 40-mm antiaircraft battery on board a ship.  These two war-winning weapons were developed in neutral countries, the 20-mm by Oerlikon of Switzerland and the 40-mm by Bofors of Sweden.

As for "DOD" or "DoD" - I have heard it as /dahd/ on occasion.

>From a long-forgotten mailing list, re Cabinet departments:
    "DOD", "DOT", and "DOJ" use the initial of the word "of".  Why?  "DD" is a destroyer (naval vessel) or Doctor of Divinity.  "DJ" is a disk jockey so it is best avoided.  "JD" (it is more commonly called "Justice Department" than "Department of Justice") is more appropriate, being both "juvenile delinquent" and "Juris Doctor".  DOT does not seem to mind being a girl's nickname, although people don't seem to call it /daht/ very often.  However, Pennsylvania DOT is universally /pen-daht/.  At least it is not "DT".

Agriculture is USDA, perhaps to distinguish it from "DA"  (Department of the Army), but Agriculture was there first.  At least it is not DOA.

Energy is DOE, Education is ED, perhaps because "EdD" is generally /ed dahc/.

State is rarely abbreviated, but when it is, it is USDS.  By the way, State is not in Foggy Bottom but rather on the bluff overlooking Foggy Bottom, which is the sometimes-fogged-in flood plain along the Potomac from the Lincoln Memorial to the mouth of Rock Creek.  What's in the for-real Foggy Bottom?  Why, the Watergate, of course.  Also, the kid's playground a block from State is Soggy Bottoms.

     - Jim Landau

If furniture could speak, Barry Popik's dining room would have the most polyglot table in New York.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  5 17:04:24 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:04:24 -0400
Subject: Computer proverbs for Fred Shapiro
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.130424.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:36:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM> writes:

>Maybe I've just been spending a little too much time on MySQL
>programming lately, but normalization issues are still a huge
>part of database design. I don't think it's at all accurate to
>say that "only serious computer scientists" are concerned with
>it. Fine, regular desktop Access or FileMaker Pro users probably
>aren't concerning themselves with normalization, but it's by no
>means a marginal concern.
>
>Jesse Sheidlower

If you write in SQL, then by today's standards you are a "serious computer scientist."  You are correct that normalization is hardly a "marginal concern", but the hordes of users of ACCESS and its competitors successfully go through life without knowing normalization exists.

Of course I go back to the good ol' days when real men designed network databases---my first exposure to DBMS came on Memorial Day 1971.

     Jim Landau
     systems engineer who never managed to get the title "computer scientist"


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Jun  5 17:27:16 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:27:16 -0700
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
In-Reply-To: <12F59B8C.66A0DFBD.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.102716.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Considering some of the languages taught at Monterey, are you
> sure "DLIFLC" is not a pronounceable acronym?
>     /dih-lih-FILK/
> That sounds like something Mark Mandel would be singing.

>From my military and gummint contracting days, I never recalled anyone
referring to DLIFLC. It was always just DLI, pronounced dee-ell-eye.

> As for "DOD" or "DoD" - I have heard it as /dahd/ on occasion.

The only time I've ever heard it as /dahd/ is in use in reference to the DoD
school system (public schools for dependent children, not military training
like DLI). The schools were /dahds/ (spelled DODS); the department was
always dee-oh-dee.

> Agriculture is USDA, perhaps to distinguish it from "DA"
> (Department of the Army), but Agriculture was there first.
> At least it is not DOA.

It's not "DA" probably because of agricultural exports. Products marked with
"USDA" don't cause confusion with foreign bureaucracies.

> Energy is DOE, Education is ED, perhaps because "EdD" is
> generally /ed dahc/.

And the acronym "DED" conjures up unfortunate imagery, and "DoED" sounds
like something a skateboarder would say.

> State is rarely abbreviated, but when it is, it is USDS.  By

I don't recall ever seeing it abbreviated as USDS. DOS is the official
acronym that goes in the address line of reporting cables and messages and
in office symbols, but it is rarely used elsewhere. It is more commonly
referred to simply as "State." In the Pentagon we had other names for the
guys "across the river," but that's a story for another thread.


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Wed Jun  5 18:53:28 2002
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:53:28 -0500
Subject: North (and South) Cackylacky?
In-Reply-To: <12F59B8C.66A0DFBD.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.135328.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A friend has asked me about the origins of North (and South)
Cackylacky as names for North (and South) Carolina.

I've had no luck with DARE or the ADS-L Archives. Google shows some
cites, mostly people writing in exaggerated hickspeak.

Even though I claim to be a North Carolinian, I'd never heard this;
my friend didn't give me a gloss in his first email and I took it for
a synonym of "East Bumfuck" (which he thought hilarious). It works
much better etymologically as a synonym for "East Bumfuck" -- 'cacky'
being 'covered in excrement' and -lacky being just reduplication.

Anyone have anything better?

Thanks!

Erin
editor at verbatimmag.com


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Wed Jun  5 20:30:59 2002
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:30:59 -0400
Subject: Pet sitting - earliest cite?
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.163059.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Pet sitting -- defined in the Random House Webster's College Dictionary as
"the act of caring for a pet in its own home while the owner is away" --
dates to 1978 in Lexis-Nexis, but I have a feeling it's much older. Does
anyone have a sense of when this term first appeared (or, better yet, a
citation)?

Thanks.

Paul


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Jun  5 20:43:20 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:43:20 -0400
Subject: North (and South) Cackylacky?
In-Reply-To: <a05100352b9240ce0ed50@[172.30.5.73]>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.164320.0400.>

What I've heard is "Calinky."

1 hit for "South Calinky"
http://homepage.mac.com/willcollier/com080897.html

0 for "North Calinky"

1 for "Sow Calinky"
http://dinette.org/delicious/

--

Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
http://www.worldnewyork.org/
646 296 2260


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Wed Jun  5 20:53:03 2002
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:53:03 -0400
Subject: Pet sitting - earliest cite?
In-Reply-To: <047101c20ccf$e99c66a0$8321d0d8@logophilia.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.165303.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 04:30 PM 6/5/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Pet sitting -- defined in the Random House Webster's College Dictionary as
>"the act of caring for a pet in its own home while the owner is away" --
>dates to 1978 in Lexis-Nexis, but I have a feeling it's much older. Does
>anyone have a sense of when this term first appeared (or, better yet, a
>citation)?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Paul


Earliest in The Times "Pet-Sitters Are Guided By Habits of Creatures"
New York Times (1857-Current File); New York, N.Y.; Aug 7, 1961; By
CHARLOTTE CURTIS
...
"She said she would not want an alligator running around her own apartment,
but this would never happen because instead of boarding animals her
pet-sitting service goes into the animal's own homes to do its work." ...

Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Jun  5 22:25:08 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:25:08 -0400
Subject: North (and South) Cackylacky?
In-Reply-To: <a05100352b9240ce0ed50@[172.30.5.73]>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.182508.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>A friend has asked me about the origins of North (and South)
>Cackylacky as names for North (and South) Carolina.

Sure looks like German "Kakerlake" = "cockroach" (= Dutch "kakkerlak"). I
don't know the etymology in German, but it may not be mere reduplication
(cf. Spanish "cucaracha" which may be the ancestor).

The word for the Carolinas is perhaps just humorously modeled on the German
word; or perhaps it's just coincidence.

-- Doug Wilson


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Wed Jun  5 23:50:01 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 19:50:01 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
In-Reply-To: <005201c20c81$b2b3af70$51295d0c@Office>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.195001.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

><))));>'Racial Profiling' has always been an inaccurate - and in
><))));>my estimation, deliberately dishonest - expression.  It is
><))));>not races that are profiled, but crimes.

Apparently you've never been a professional black man commuting 50 miles a
day in a luxury car on the NJ Turnpike or you'd have a different opinion.
You'd get used to spending a lot of time explaining yourself while you
garner tickets, not for speeding or reckless driving, but  for "changing
lanes within 100 ft of an intersection" (even the little side streets
without traffic lights that intersect larger highways), "failure to signal
for 100 ft before changing lanes", or "driving with obscured rearview mirror
(sunglasses looped up there at night).  Know may white folk who get those
kinds of tickets?  Or if you'd had your wife's body cavities searched three
times in four years by customs officials at international airports because a
black family with a timeshare boat in the islands is suspicious.  Sure don't
read about that happening to white folk in Cruising World.

If you want to increase reported crime, as many localities have found out,
flood a particular area with police.  The more police, the more crimes will
be reported because there are more bored eyes watching.  If you want to
prove that a particular group commits a disproportionate number of crimes,
flood their part of town with cops and stop plenty of that group and you'll
soon have all the statistics you desire--same thing happened to Jews in the
ghettos.

Actually, a new program at Customs is leading the way in proper law
enforcement profiling, and yielding better results.  Analyzing the ticket
purchase, entry and exit patterns, duration of stay, and past criminal
history is a far better indicator of possible illegal activity than skin
tone.  Since Customs switched to the new whole person concept of profiling,
their drug yield per man hour has gone up.

rhk


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  6 00:45:51 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:45:51 EDT
Subject: Lumps of Delight (1842); Irish Stew (1812?)
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.204551.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

LUMPS OF DELIGHT

A NARRATIVE OF TRAVELS TO VIENNA, COMNSTANTINOPLE, ATHENS, NAPLES &c.
by the Marchioness of Londonberry
London: Henry Colburn
1842

Pg. 103:  ...the ladies, who, certainly in their _feridjee_, or folding
mantle, and their _yasmac_, or veil, which covers all but the yes, look more
or less alike.
(OED has 1844 for "yashmack"--ed.)

Pg. 119:  Hash-pilaff, rice, chickens, keebabs (morsels of roasted meat)--in
short, not less than twenty dishes followed...

Pg. 150:  Presents are sent of baskets of confectionary, called "lumps of
delight," which I never had the courage to taste; neither could I, during my
stay in Constantinople, summon resolution to try a Turkish bath, which, from
the description I had of it, seems by no means inviting.
(OED has 1870 for "lumps of delight," now called "Turkish delight."  I had
posted an 1860 cite--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
A JO)URNEY THROUGH PERSIA, ARMENIA, AND ASIA MINOR, TO CONSTANTINOPLE, IN THE
YEARS 1808 and 1809
by James Justinian Morier
Philadelphia: Published by M. Carey, and Wells and Lilly, Boston
1816

Pg. 25:  A Persian visit, when the guest is a distinguished personage,
generally consists of three acts:...and sweet coffee (so called from its
being a composition of rose-water and sugar)...

Pg. 84:  The pillau succeeded, three of which were placed before each two
guests; one of plain rice called chillo, one made of mutton with raisins and
almonds, the other of fowl, with rich spices and plumbs.

Pg. 316:  The principal dishes were the yakne, which resembles our Irish
stew; the dolmah, meat-balls enclosed in vine-leaves; the kabob, which is
roast meat; the chorbah, or soup; the baklavah, a cake of honey, paste, and
other sweet ingredients; the lokmah, a light paste puff; and the pillau...
(OED has 1814 for "Irish stew."  However, this covers 1808-1809, and the
Library of Congress has an 1812 edition of this book.  I'm sure "Irish stew"
is also there--ed.)


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Thu Jun  6 01:59:39 2002
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 21:59:39 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.215939.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I can hear the anger in your message, and you have every right to that
anger. Racial profiling has too often been used by lower middle class
whites in law enforcement to revenge themselves against highly successful
Blacks. And I fully agree with you that that is an abomination.

But you miss my point. My original post (which admittedly is not the one
to which you are responding) was that the term "racial profiling" was so
emotionally charged, especially among people who have been at the
receiving end of its abuse, that we should find another phrase for
targeting people who fit the parameters of those who may do us, including
you, excruciating harm.

You are right that there might other factors involved in profiling, and
there probably are. You suggest a one way ticket, but that is easily
countered by organizations that are well funded. Duration of stay is
certainly important, but only for those who come and go legally and have
it stamped in their passport. Would you allow "profiling" those
mid-Easterners who have exceeded their visa? Of the five thousand Moslems
in this country on temporary visas who(m) the Justice Department wanted
to talk to, nearly three thousand cannot be found. Can they legitimately
be targeted?

The fact remains that the vast majority of those who wish to take action
to destroy our country are Moslems in the age group of 20 to 35 from
specific countries. Shouldn't that be an element in the profile? Absent
other factors in the profile, should a 50 year old woman from Denmark be
treated in the same way as a 28 year old man from Saudi Arabia?

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but it makes common sense to me. And my
point was that we should find another term that doesn't have the history,
that does not enrage people who were unjustifiably stopped on the New
Jersey turnpike.

The problem is not with the policy, which I think makes sense, but with
the phrase. It draws into the debate factors that have nothing to do with
the present situation.

D


On Wed, 5 Jun 2002 19:50:01 -0400 Rick Kennerly <rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM>
writes:
> ><))));>'Racial Profiling' has always been an inaccurate - and in
> ><))));>my estimation, deliberately dishonest - expression.  It is
> ><))));>not races that are profiled, but crimes.
>
> Apparently you've never been a professional black man commuting 50
> miles a
> day in a luxury car on the NJ Turnpike or you'd have a different
> opinion.
> You'd get used to spending a lot of time explaining yourself while
> you
> garner tickets, not for speeding or reckless driving, but  for
> "changing
> lanes within 100 ft of an intersection" (even the little side
> streets
> without traffic lights that intersect larger highways), "failure to
> signal
> for 100 ft before changing lanes", or "driving with obscured
> rearview mirror
> (sunglasses looped up there at night).  Know may white folk who get
> those
> kinds of tickets?  Or if you'd had your wife's body cavities
> searched three
> times in four years by customs officials at international airports
> because a
> black family with a timeshare boat in the islands is suspicious.
> Sure don't
> read about that happening to white folk in Cruising World.
>
> If you want to increase reported crime, as many localities have
> found out,
> flood a particular area with police.  The more police, the more
> crimes will
> be reported because there are more bored eyes watching.  If you want
> to
> prove that a particular group commits a disproportionate number of
> crimes,
> flood their part of town with cops and stop plenty of that group and
> you'll
> soon have all the statistics you desire--same thing happened to Jews
> in the
> ghettos.
>
> Actually, a new program at Customs is leading the way in proper law
> enforcement profiling, and yielding better results.  Analyzing the
> ticket
> purchase, entry and exit patterns, duration of stay, and past
> criminal
> history is a far better indicator of possible illegal activity than
> skin
> tone.  Since Customs switched to the new whole person concept of
> profiling,
> their drug yield per man hour has gone up.
>
> rhk
>


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Thu Jun  6 02:14:27 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:14:27 -0400
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
In-Reply-To: <12F59B8C.66A0DFBD.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.221427.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

#Considering some of the languages taught at Monterey, are you sure
#"DLIFLC" is not a pronounceable acronym?
#    /dih-lih-FILK/
#That sounds like something Mark Mandel would be singing.

I sure would, but why three syllables? [dlI'fLk], with syllabic [l] in
the second syllable.

#If furniture could speak, Barry Popik's dining room would have the
#most polyglot table in New York.

Right!!

-- Mark M.


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Thu Jun  6 02:25:26 2002
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:25:26 -0400
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.222526.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My daughter spent over a year at DLI in Monterrey and we spend a month
out there with her, and I never heard it called anything but DLI.

My wife and I spent several years in Europe. I was first military and
then a DOD (Dee-oh-dee) civilian. She taught at the military school,
which was a Dee-oh-dee school. I never heard "dohd" school. This was in
the late 60s and early 70s.

D


From wh5mith at POP.MINDSPRING.COM  Thu Jun  6 04:18:12 2002
From: wh5mith at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bill Smith)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 00:18:12 -0400
Subject: Evolving subjunctive
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.001812.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Skip Carey (son of Harry) is one of the radio/tv  announcers for the
Atlanta Braves.  When there are two outs and he announces the batter on
deck, he says, "Chipper [e.g.] would be next."  Is this a new use for the
subjunctive?  For Cubs fans, did he get it from his father?
On the other hand, he will also say, for example, "If he doesn't stop, he's
out," when one would expect "If he hadn't stopped, he would have been
out."  Are these unique to him?


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Thu Jun  6 04:27:06 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 00:27:06 -0400
Subject: Evolving subjunctive
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20020606001204.00a08c60@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.002706.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bill Smith said:
>Skip Carey (son of Harry) is one of the radio/tv  announcers for the
>Atlanta Braves.  When there are two outs and he announces the batter on
>deck, he says, "Chipper [e.g.] would be next."  Is this a new use for the
>subjunctive?  For Cubs fans, did he get it from his father?
>On the other hand, he will also say, for example, "If he doesn't stop, he's
>out," when one would expect "If he hadn't stopped, he would have been
>out."  Are these unique to him?

The first, the implied conditional ("Chipper would be next [if Andruw gets
on]") may well be unique to Caray. However, the contingent sentences ("if
he doesn't stop, he's out") seems fairly common in sportscasterese.

--
Alice Faber                                  tel. (203) 865-6163 x258
Haskins Laboratories                              fax  (203) 865-8963
270 Crown St                                   faber at haskins.yale.edu
New Haven, CT 06511


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  6 07:28:38 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 03:28:38 -0400
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.032838.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When yall change the topic could you PLEASE change the subject line' so I can delete stuff I am not interested in without paying to open it?

Thanks.

In a message dated Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:58:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM> writes:

>In a message dated Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:23:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Drew Danielson <andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU> writes:
>
>     <deletions in the following>
>>"Defense Language Institute Foreign Language Center (DLIFLC)
>> Presidio of  Monterey (POM)
>> Department of Defense (DoD)".
>>
>>Of course, I knew that these
>>are all initialisms and not acronyms.
>
>Considering some of the languages taught at Monterey, are you sure "DLIFLC" is not a pronounceable acronym?
>    /dih-lih-FILK/
>That sounds like something Mark Mandel would be singing.
>
>"POM" is not an acronym that I know of, although there is "MOP" ("Ministry of Propaganda").  In World War II it had two other meanings:
>   "POMM" (not sure of the spelling) - a brand of powdered potatoes
>   "pom-pom" (onomatopeic, I am told, not the thing cheerleaders use) - either a 20-mm or a 40-mm antiaircraft battery on board a ship.  These two war-winning weapons were developed in neutral countries, the 20-mm by Oerlikon of Switzerland and the 40-mm by Bofors of Sweden.
>
>As for "DOD" or "DoD" - I have heard it as /dahd/ on occasion.
>
>>From a long-forgotten mailing list, re Cabinet departments:
>    "DOD", "DOT", and "DOJ" use the initial of the word "of".  Why?  "DD" is a destroyer (naval vessel) or Doctor of Divinity.  "DJ" is a disk jockey so it is best avoided.  "JD" (it is more commonly called "Justice Department" than "Department of Justice") is more appropriate, being both "juvenile delinquent" and "Juris Doctor".  DOT does not seem to mind being a girl's nickname, although people don't seem to call it /daht/ very often.  However, Pennsylvania DOT is universally /pen-daht/.  At least it is not "DT".
>
>Agriculture is USDA, perhaps to distinguish it from "DA"  (Department of the Army), but Agriculture was there first.  At least it is not DOA.
>
>Energy is DOE, Education is ED, perhaps because "EdD" is generally /ed dahc/.
>
>State is rarely abbreviated, but when it is, it is USDS.  By the way, State is not in Foggy Bottom but rather on the bluff overlooking Foggy Bottom, which is the sometimes-fogged-in flood plain along the Potomac from the Lincoln Memorial to the mouth of Rock Creek.  What's in the for-real Foggy Bottom?  Why, the Watergate, of course.  Also, the kid's playground a block from State is Soggy Bottoms.
>
>     - Jim Landau
>
>If furniture could speak, Barry Popik's dining room would have the most polyglot table in New York.
>


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Thu Jun  6 10:26:49 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 06:26:49 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
In-Reply-To: <20020605.220537.-461759.6.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.062649.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

><))));>anger. Racial profiling has too often been used by lower
><))));>middle class
><))));>whites in law enforcement to revenge themselves against
><))));>highly successful

Nice fantasy, but a majority of the NJ State Police are college educated and
all make a professional salary.  The profiling schemes they've admitted in
court was pushed down on them in an institutional way by their supervisors,
relying on pop psychology, pseudoscience and selectively sampled
statistically data to predetermine the outcome--Nazis did the same thing.
Driving while black is still an offense in a lot of places, we shouldn't
honor NJ alone.

><))));>there probably are. You suggest a one way ticket, but that is easily

Trip profiling was just one example of a more successful method of drug
interdiction that works better than racial profiling for US Customs, and it
does take into account the country that issued your passport.  But this
problem, like drug interdiction,  is also an ever shifting puzzle--like a
ball a clay, if you squeeze here, it pops out somewhere else--just like the
current problem.

><))));>should a 50 year old woman
><))));>from Denmark be
><))));>treated in the same way as a 28 year old man from Saudi Arabia?
><))));>

Ah, by your own example we're back to physical attributes to determine who
is singled out for intense scrutiny--if white, all right.  If brown, strip
them down.   And we're going to let who, exactly, make these decisions?
Those highly professional--cum federal employees--with a wand and a  badge
at the gates nowadays? And thanks for the information that there are no
aging white terrorists--not even a few old left over bader meinhoff folks in
Germany? no old desperate Europeans muling drugs or worse for rent money? no
grandmotherly dupes inadvertently carrying somebody else's package for a
grandchild back home? or traveling with bags that their angry radicalized
Indonesian house slave packed for them?  Amazing insight.  Of course, until
911 the worst mass murderer in US history was a super patriotic white guy,
an Army veteran living in the Midwest, who no one would suspect, but it's
too much trouble to intensely scrutinize white folks, too many of 'em.

But that's okay, after all after 911 the black community, the oriental
community and the latino community were right in there with everybody else,
pitching like a lodge brother, to have people of Arab descent thrown off of
planes and ghettoized in neighborhoods.  The fact that they've been there
makes it particularly wrong.   But, listen it's a natural response.  We're
all right, they're not.  But the beauty America is that through our ideals
we can rise above that, despite our historical lapses.

In any event, being of demonstrated cleverness, well-financed, and patient,
I'm sure, regardless of what we do, a determined group of terrorists--maybe
Filipino or Malaysian or Indonesian this time--will strike again.  But it
might just be another Timothy  McVeigh, too.  The question is where do we
draw that line which, if crossed, we stop being America?  If we abandon our
ideals yet survive physically, is this country still American?  Did we not
learn anything from the interment of Americans of Japanese descent?  The
ghettoization of the Jews?  The hell German-Americans lived at the hands of
their neighbors during the war?

><))));>Maybe I'm just old fashioned

Yep, and it's that old fashioned thinking that will open the door to allow
the next group of terrorist to strike.

rhk


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  6 11:56:11 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:56:11 EDT
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.075611.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/05/2002 10:27:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mam at THEWORLD.COM writes:

> I sure would, but why three syllables? [dlI'fLk], with syllabic [l] in
>  the second syllable.

/dli filk/ would work in a language like French or (I think) Japanese that
does not accent syllables. In a language like English or Russian, with a
strong accent and a habit of ghettoizing the vowels in the unaccented
syllables, the first syllable of /dli 'filk/ would get slurred to the point
of being unrecognizable. Even in a language with a moderate accent (like
Spanish) in which vowels of unaccented syllables are pronounced distinctly,
unaccented /dli/ is borderline.  Since I specified an accented final syllable
(I tried accents on all 3 syllables and that was the clear esthetic winner),
I broke "DLI" into two syllables to keep it from getting slurred and making
sure all the consonants were recognizable.

I tried a schwa in the first syllable but that made it sound like the surname
"de le Filk" which is a grammatical error in both French and Spanish, so I
used /i/ in both the first two syllables.

So there!

    - Jim Landau


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Thu Jun  6 12:44:38 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 08:44:38 -0400
Subject: Evolving subjunctive
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20020606001204.00a08c60@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.084438.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sportcasterese has come up with several innovations this list should
notice.  They avoid the past perfect as noted in this message; they are
using something like the historical present but only when it is past!  In
other words, right after it happened, they would say:  "He stopped at
second" -- not using the historical present.  But later during analysis
they would say "If he doesn't stop, he's out," as if they were using the
historical present.  I have heard this sort of thing only from
sportcasters.  They also say "may" for "might" but that is common use by
many (mostly young?) people.

Sportcasters also use an analytic possessive a lot.  "It bounced of the
glove of Lofton" rather than "It bounced off Lofton's glove".  It appears
to my introspection that generating the second sentence requires an extra
transformation, whereas the first sentence is closer to the abstract
structure behind the sentence.  This is something that could probably be
tested, but I can't think how.

--Charles Wells





>Skip Carey (son of Harry) is one of the radio/tv  announcers for the
>Atlanta Braves.  When there are two outs and he announces the batter on
>deck, he says, "Chipper [e.g.] would be next."  Is this a new use for the
>subjunctive?  For Cubs fans, did he get it from his father?
>On the other hand, he will also say, for example, "If he doesn't stop, he's
>out," when one would expect "If he hadn't stopped, he would have been
>out."  Are these unique to him?



Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Thu Jun  6 13:37:02 2002
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:37:02 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
In-Reply-To: <NJEFLDNDEIDMAKCHIMJGGEBNCFAA.rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.093702.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Once upon a time, a friend of mine had her necklace ripped off her
neck in Manhattan by a woman who approached her asking for
help.  Several days later, while we were visiting Washington, D.C.,
this friend was in the process of buying a fare card at an automatic
dispensing machine in the subway station when a total stranger
approached her offering assistance with her purchase.  My friend,
whose wallet was open, shrank away from this person, who
proceeded to berate her as a "stupid white woman," angrily
informed her that he'd served in Viet Nam, and made a derogatory
remark concerning the town that was the ultimate destination of the
train we were taking, which he incorrectly inferred that she lived.

So tell me, who was doing the racial profiling in that case?  Who
was the oppressed and who the oppressor? Who gets to be the
most sanctimonious?

Joanne Despres


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Thu Jun  6 15:02:41 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:02:41 -0400
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
In-Reply-To: <124.11c82cc4.2a30a7db@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.110241.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

#mam at THEWORLD.COM writes:
#
#> I sure would, but why three syllables? [dlI'fLk], with syllabic [l] in
#>  the second syllable.

        [snip detailed explanation]

#So there!

So much for hoi polloi. But *I* would happily say [dlI'fLk] or
[dlI'fIlk].

-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and
   Philological Busybody
   a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun  6 15:50:52 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:50:52 -0400
Subject: Evolving subjunctive
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20020606001204.00a08c60@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.115052.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:18 AM -0400 6/6/02, Bill Smith wrote:
>Skip Carey (son of Harry) is one of the radio/tv  announcers for the
>Atlanta Braves.  When there are two outs and he announces the batter on
>deck, he says, "Chipper [e.g.] would be next."  Is this a new use for the
>subjunctive?

I don't think so; it's clearly elliptical in the context for "if X
gets on, Chipper would be next" or "if the inning continues, Chipper
would be next".  I'd call it a conditional, not a subjunctive.

>On the other hand, he will also say, for example, "If he doesn't stop, he's
>out," when one would expect "If he hadn't stopped, he would have been
>out."  Are these unique to him?

The latter we've discussed on the list, and it's fairly
well-established sportscasterese.  (In fact you asked about this on
the list 7 years ago, and I responded as below.)

=========
Date:          Thu, 12 Oct 1995 23:34:01 EDT
Sender:       American Dialect Society <<ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From:         Larry Horn <<LHORN at YaleVM.CIS.Yale.Edu>
Subject:      Re: If I was
To:           Multiple recipients of list ADS-L <<ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Bill Smith wonders:
>David Justice has just made a spectacular catch preventing the
>winning run from coming in.  The announcer says, "If Justice doesn't
>catch that it's
>a double and the go-ahead run is in."
>Is this general sportscasterese, along with the use of the simple
>present for what is going on right now or just Bravesese?

It is indeed general sportscasterese, not limited to the Braves or to
baseball.  It's used all the time in play-by-play for e.g. football (if he
doesn't deflect that pass, it goes for an easy touchdown) or basketball ("If
the Glide doesn't give that hard foul, Kidd goes in for an uncontested
lay-up").  Historical present counterfactual?  (Note that this form can be
used in commenting on an instant replay, but not as felicitously by a
sportscaster showing the videotape later that night in a highlight show.)

Larry
===========

(This construction was also mentioned by David Carkeet, author of
various novels with a linguist hero, in a New York Times "On
Language" column on July 22, 2000.)

L


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  6 18:19:16 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 14:19:16 -0400
Subject: Nosh; All Things Considered
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.141916.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NOSH

A JOURNEY THROUGH PERSIA, ARMENIA, AND ASIA MINOR,
TON CONSTANTINOPLE, IN THE YEARS 1808 and 1809
by James Morier
Philadelphia: published by M. Carey, and Wells & Lilly, Boston
1816

Pg. 175:  The kabob shops (or eating houses, on the plan of those in Turkey) seemed to be equally clean and well arranged.

Pg. 244:  ...shalwar...
(OED has 1824, also by J. Morier.  Again, this is probably in the 1812 edition.  Other clothing terms listed on the page are not in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 286:  On his arrival he eats his choshta, or intermediate meal, and then sleeps.  At sunset he takes another repast (his noshta); and his servants then pack up every thing ready for his departure next morning.
(Nosh?  OED has that from 1917 as a noun, 1957 as a verb.  What does "noshta" mean?--ed.)

Pg. 340:  ..._yaourt_ and cold _pillau_.

Pg. 343:  ..eat some soup and meat-balls*...
*"_Chorbah_, soup; _dolmah_, meat-balls, in vine leaves."

Pg. 355:  ..._menzils_, or day's journey...
(About the second cite for this--ed.)

-------------------------------------------------------------
ALL THINGS CONSIDERED

   This Sunday, at about 11 a.m., WNYC, "All Things Considered" with Dean Olsher will discuss the New York Public Library.
   David Shulman just told me that he will be interviewed tomorrow for the show.

(O.T.:  Do not nosh all things considered.)


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun  6 19:20:30 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 12:20:30 -0700
Subject: Two questions--myself and flush out
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.122030.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have recently noticed two different usages that I'd
like to know more about. The first is the use of
"myself" in place of both "me" and "I".

Ex.

1. Send the document to Bob and myself.
2. Bob and myself will be heading up the meeting.

I thought it might be a way of avoiding the conundrum
of rembering which pronoun to use. However, I have no
idea if there is a long history to this usage or not,
so if anyone has any info on this, I'd appreciate it.

The second is the term "flush out" to mean "flesh
out".    I heard fairly often at my work, and assumed
it was some sort of mispronunciation that's going
around. I was very surprised to see it in print in The
Ten-Day MBA by Steven Silberger: p. 20 "The following
questions help to flush that out."  Any
thoughts/history on this one?

Thanks!

Ed Keer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Jun  6 19:46:57 2002
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 15:46:57 -0400
Subject: ..more words may be needed..
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.154657.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In today's (6 June 2002) Wall Street Journal, on p. D1, bottom of page,
is a Moving On article by Jeffrey Zaslow, titled:  Searching for a Word
or a Simple Way For Parents to Say They've Lost a Child.

Essentially, the commentary deals with the need for a word to describe
"a parent who has lost a child".  "Surviving parents in growing numbers
are talking about rewriting the language of grief."

"The English language has about 450,000 commonly used words, but more
may be needed.  What do you call someone who has lost a sibling or had a
miscarriage?  Or a gay person whose partner has died?  Or an elderly
person who has lost every friend and relative?  So many heartaches can't
be found in the dictionary."

Jeffrey Kacirk, author of Forgotten English is mentioned, as is Howard
Rheingold, author of They Have a Word For It.

"Now that parents are talking more (in support groups), they're more
aware of the shadings and inferences of language."  Words with which
those parents are uncomfortable are mentioned.
================

The above is sent merely as an FYI item.

George Cole
Shippensburg University


From self at TOWSE.COM  Thu Jun  6 19:47:59 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 12:47:59 -0700
Subject: Two questions--myself and flush out
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.124759.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ed Keer wrote:

> The second is the term "flush out" to mean "flesh
> out".    I heard fairly often at my work, and assumed
> it was some sort of mispronunciation that's going
> around. I was very surprised to see it in print in The
> Ten-Day MBA by Steven Silberger: p. 20 "The following
> questions help to flush that out."  Any
> thoughts/history on this one?

In software engineering, one flushes a queue or flushes a buffer,
to force the contents out and leave it empty and pristine for
later use.

In RL, one directs a stream of water down a small drain pipe at
high force to get the dead chipmunk out of the pipe and available
for disposal in the nearest trashcan.

Are you sure that Silberger isn't using "flush that out" to mean
dragging some issue out into the open where it can be dissected
and discussed?

Sal
--
useful links for writers:
<http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Thu Jun  6 20:15:59 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 13:15:59 -0700
Subject: Nosh; All Things Considered
In-Reply-To: <4C318DD8.7770DEE2.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.131559.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My only guess is that it might be related to the Persian "nosh"= "drink".
I can't explain the -ta or what it would mean. It only appears as a loan
word in Turkish where the -ta could be a locative suffix, but that doesn't
make much sense.

allen

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> NOSH
>
> A JOURNEY THROUGH PERSIA, ARMENIA, AND ASIA MINOR,
> TON CONSTANTINOPLE, IN THE YEARS 1808 and 1809
> by James Morier
> Philadelphia: published by M. Carey, and Wells & Lilly, Boston
> 1816
>
>
> Pg. 286:  On his arrival he eats his choshta, or intermediate meal, and
  then sleeps.  At sunset he takes another repast (his noshta); and his
  servants then pack up every thing ready for his departure next morning.
> (Nosh?  OED has that from 1917 as a noun, 1957 as a verb.  What does
  "noshta" mean?--ed.)


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Thu Jun  6 20:17:04 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:17:04 -0400
Subject: nil as 0-0? (was: Evolving subjunctive)
In-Reply-To: <p04320409b925338eaa76@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.161704.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Speaking of sportscasterese, I heard this on the radio this afternoon,
approximate quote from memory:

"The Red Sox game against [whoever] is nil at the moment, zero-zero in
the third."

I've heard "nil" used for a score of zero, but only for one team at a
time, as in "two-nil", and I associate it more with UK than US usage.
Here it clearly was used to mean 'no score for either team', which is
new to me.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Thu Jun  6 20:27:02 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:27:02 -0400
Subject: Two questions--myself and flush out
In-Reply-To: <3CFFBC6F.5CFE9C5D@towse.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.162702.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Towse wrote:

#Ed Keer wrote:
#
#> The second is the term "flush out" to mean "flesh
#> out".    I heard fairly often at my work, and assumed
#> it was some sort of mispronunciation that's going
#> around. I was very surprised to see it in print in The
#> Ten-Day MBA by Steven Silberger: p. 20 "The following
#> questions help to flush that out."  Any
#> thoughts/history on this one?
#
#In RL, one directs a stream of water down a small drain pipe at
#high force to get the dead chipmunk out of the pipe and available
#for disposal in the nearest trashcan.

I've seen this fairly often meaning 'to force or frighten out of
hiding'. OED compact edn has flush as vt, 2a: To cause to fly or take
wing; to put up, start; also with _up_. (citations 1450-1888, all
referring to hunting birds).
 2b, transf. and fig.: To reveal; to bring into the open; to drive
_out_. (cits. 1950-71, apparently referring only to persons but unclear
on the 1971)

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Thu Jun  6 20:27:46 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:27:46 -0400
Subject: Two questions--myself and flush out
In-Reply-To: <20020606192030.51127.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.162746.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My son and I noticed ten years ago that the vowels in "flesh" and "flush"
(in any context followed by a voiceless consonant) seemed to be merging in
the mouths of teenage suburban girls in the Cleveland area.  We thought of
it as Valley Girl talk.

--Charles Wells

>I have recently noticed two different usages that I'd
>like to know more about. The first is the use of
>"myself" in place of both "me" and "I".
>
>Ex.
>
>1. Send the document to Bob and myself.
>2. Bob and myself will be heading up the meeting.
>
>I thought it might be a way of avoiding the conundrum
>of rembering which pronoun to use. However, I have no
>idea if there is a long history to this usage or not,
>so if anyone has any info on this, I'd appreciate it.
>
>The second is the term "flush out" to mean "flesh
>out".    I heard fairly often at my work, and assumed
>it was some sort of mispronunciation that's going
>around. I was very surprised to see it in print in The
>Ten-Day MBA by Steven Silberger: p. 20 "The following
>questions help to flush that out."  Any
>thoughts/history on this one?
>
>Thanks!
>
>Ed Keer
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com



Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET  Thu Jun  6 20:08:02 2002
From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:08:02 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.160802.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well said, RK.

Bob

http://www.michigan.gov/deq/1,1607,7-135-3313_3675---,00.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Kennerly <rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: Is there a better term?


> ><))));>anger. Racial profiling has too often been used by lower
> ><))));>middle class
> ><))));>whites in law enforcement to revenge themselves against
> ><))));>highly successful
>
> Nice fantasy, but a majority of the NJ State Police are college educated
and
> all make a professional salary.  The profiling schemes they've admitted in
> court was pushed down on them in an institutional way by their
supervisors,
> relying on pop psychology, pseudoscience and selectively sampled
> statistically data to predetermine the outcome--Nazis did the same thing.
> Driving while black is still an offense in a lot of places, we shouldn't
> honor NJ alone.
>
> ><))));>there probably are. You suggest a one way ticket, but that is
easily
>
> Trip profiling was just one example of a more successful method of drug
> interdiction that works better than racial profiling for US Customs, and
it
> does take into account the country that issued your passport.  But this
> problem, like drug interdiction,  is also an ever shifting puzzle--like a
> ball a clay, if you squeeze here, it pops out somewhere else--just like
the
> current problem.
>
> ><))));>should a 50 year old woman
> ><))));>from Denmark be
> ><))));>treated in the same way as a 28 year old man from Saudi Arabia?
> ><))));>
>
> Ah, by your own example we're back to physical attributes to determine who
> is singled out for intense scrutiny--if white, all right.  If brown, strip
> them down.   And we're going to let who, exactly, make these decisions?
> Those highly professional--cum federal employees--with a wand and a  badge
> at the gates nowadays? And thanks for the information that there are no
> aging white terrorists--not even a few old left over bader meinhoff folks
in
> Germany? no old desperate Europeans muling drugs or worse for rent money?
no
> grandmotherly dupes inadvertently carrying somebody else's package for a
> grandchild back home? or traveling with bags that their angry radicalized
> Indonesian house slave packed for them?  Amazing insight.  Of course,
until
> 911 the worst mass murderer in US history was a super patriotic white guy,
> an Army veteran living in the Midwest, who no one would suspect, but it's
> too much trouble to intensely scrutinize white folks, too many of 'em.
>
> But that's okay, after all after 911 the black community, the oriental
> community and the latino community were right in there with everybody
else,
> pitching like a lodge brother, to have people of Arab descent thrown off
of
> planes and ghettoized in neighborhoods.  The fact that they've been there
> makes it particularly wrong.   But, listen it's a natural response.  We're
> all right, they're not.  But the beauty America is that through our ideals
> we can rise above that, despite our historical lapses.
>
> In any event, being of demonstrated cleverness, well-financed, and
patient,
> I'm sure, regardless of what we do, a determined group of
terrorists--maybe
> Filipino or Malaysian or Indonesian this time--will strike again.  But it
> might just be another Timothy  McVeigh, too.  The question is where do we
> draw that line which, if crossed, we stop being America?  If we abandon
our
> ideals yet survive physically, is this country still American?  Did we not
> learn anything from the interment of Americans of Japanese descent?  The
> ghettoization of the Jews?  The hell German-Americans lived at the hands
of
> their neighbors during the war?
>
> ><))));>Maybe I'm just old fashioned
>
> Yep, and it's that old fashioned thinking that will open the door to allow
> the next group of terrorist to strike.
>
> rhk
>


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Thu Jun  6 22:02:49 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:02:49 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
In-Reply-To: <3CFF2D3E.11322.9076865@localhost>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.180249.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

><))));>So tell me, who was doing the racial profiling in that case?

Unfortunate but irrelevant example.  There is a vast difference between
stereotyping by individuals and government sanctioned, police empowered,
racial profiling.   One results in an unsatisfactory social encounter.  The
other can result in a hand covered by a greased glove probing your nether
regions while you stand naked in front of a one-way mirror, or worse.

rhk


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Jun  6 23:18:35 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 19:18:35 -0400
Subject: Two questions--myself and flush out
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20020606162544.00b6a230@mail.oberlin.net>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.191835.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The vowel of "flesh" moving to that of "flush" is a late stage of the
Northern Cities Shift. Not surprising in Cleveland (with no need for
Valley Girl interpretation).

dInIs


>My son and I noticed ten years ago that the vowels in "flesh" and "flush"
>(in any context followed by a voiceless consonant) seemed to be merging in
>the mouths of teenage suburban girls in the Cleveland area.  We thought of
>it as Valley Girl talk.
>
>--Charles Wells
>
>>I have recently noticed two different usages that I'd
>>like to know more about. The first is the use of
>>"myself" in place of both "me" and "I".
>>
>>Ex.
>>
>>1. Send the document to Bob and myself.
>>2. Bob and myself will be heading up the meeting.
>>
>>I thought it might be a way of avoiding the conundrum
>>of rembering which pronoun to use. However, I have no
>>idea if there is a long history to this usage or not,
>>so if anyone has any info on this, I'd appreciate it.
>>
>>The second is the term "flush out" to mean "flesh
>>out".    I heard fairly often at my work, and assumed
>>it was some sort of mispronunciation that's going
>>around. I was very surprised to see it in print in The
>>Ten-Day MBA by Steven Silberger: p. 20 "The following
>>questions help to flush that out."  Any
>>thoughts/history on this one?
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>>Ed Keer
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>>http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>Charles Wells
>professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
>personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
>genealogical website:
>http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
>NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  6 23:46:01 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 19:46:01 EDT
Subject: Yurt, Baidar (1774); Angora (1784)
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.194601.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

YURT, BAIDAR

AN ACCOUNT OF THE NEW NORTHERN ARCHIPELAGO, LATELY DISCOVERED BY THE RUSSIANS
by Mr. J. von Staehlin
London: C. Heydinger
1774

   This was in German in 1768, so the original manuscript is older.  OED has
its first "suslik" from this book--the only citation used.  It's about a
40-page book.  How someone missed about 20 "jurt" cites is beyond me.
    This is one of the earliest books for Alaska.  Many of the terms here are
not in OED.

Pg. 24:  The berries that grow on the island, though very sparingly, are the
common _Schichsa_ and _Golubel_.  On the contrary, the roots for food,
namely, the _Kutarnick_, and the red root, grow in such quantities, as to
afford a plentiful provision for the inhabitants.
(Terms are not in the OED...I KNEW Alaska had the common shiksa--ed.)

Pg. 25:
(a) _Baidars_ are large boats, made of whales ribs, bound together with
hoops, and covered over with the skins of sea-dogs, sea-cows, and other sea
animals.
(OED has 1834 for "bidarka"--ed.)

Pg. 27:  The island produces plenty of vegetab le food; such as the
_Kutarnik_, the red root, and the _Sarana_.
(OED?--ed.)

Pg. 28:  The inhabitants on the low lands have green huts, which they call
_Jurts_, where they constantly live.
(I had posted a 1780 "yurt."  OED's first cite is 1784, but it's from Cook's
voyage of 1779.  The next cite is 1780.  Again, this is from 1774 in English,
1768 in German--ed.)

Pg. 31:  ...several other species, known only in these waters, and called
_Kirschutsch_, _Chaiko_, _Pestraiki_, _Postuschina_, &c.
(OED?--ed.)

Pg. 33:  They live in _Jurts_ or cellars under ground...
(One of many other "jurts" here.  But why "under" ground?  I stayed in a yurt
hut "above" ground--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
ANGORA (continued)

THE PRESENT STATE OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE
translated from the French manuscript of Elias Habesci
London: R. Baldwin
1784

   There's a word glossary at the beginning of the book, but I didn't see any
antedates in "fetvah" and "medresse" and "kiosc" and "hamam" and others.  No
food terms were in the glossary, and very few were in the book.

Pg. 425:  The camlets are made at  _Angora_, in _Natolia_, a country which
abounds in fine wool...

Pg. 430:  The principal article taken by the Dutch in return is _Angora_
goats hair.


From self at TOWSE.COM  Fri Jun  7 00:04:36 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 17:04:36 -0700
Subject: Yurt, Baidar (1774); Angora (1784)
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.170436.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> Pg. 33:  They live in _Jurts_ or cellars under ground...
> (One of many other "jurts" here.  But why "under" ground?  I stayed in a yurt
> hut "above" ground--ed.)

Perhaps the author meant they lived in either jurts or cellars
under ground.

Is there any other instance in the book of "or" so you can check
whether the author used "either"/"or" pairing?

Sal
--
useful links for writers:
<http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Jun  7 00:17:02 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 20:17:02 -0400
Subject: Yurt, Baidar (1774); Angora (1784)
In-Reply-To: <70.1dd6d311.2a314e39@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.201702.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

#   This was in German in 1768, so the original manuscript is older.  OED has
#its first "suslik" from this book--the only citation used.

I just sent email to *our* first and only Suslik, in Paris. When our
daughter Susannah was born we wanted a good nickname to call her, and
anything like "Susie" was out of the question (personal esthetics). We
asked a Russian couple we knew for suggestions, and they suggested
"suslik", as the name of an animal that lives in burrows and makes a
whistling sound and is often thought of as cute. That has been her
nickname, with her mother and me, ever since.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  7 00:45:53 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 20:45:53 EDT
Subject: Yurt, Baidar (1774); Angora (1784)
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.204553.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/06/2002 7:46:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

> .I KNEW Alaska had the common shiksa

Yes.  Not one of the frozen Chosen.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Fri Jun  7 03:04:27 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 23:04:27 -0400
Subject: Nosh; All Things Considered
In-Reply-To: <4C318DD8.7770DEE2.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.230427.0400.>

> ALL THINGS CONSIDERED
>
>  This Sunday, at about 11 a.m., WNYC, "All Things Considered" with Dean Olsher
> will discuss the New York Public Library.

No, Dean Olsher hosts "The Next Big Thing." It's kind of a New York-centric
knock off of "This American Life." There's some decent voiced fiction
sometimes (I dunno how else to describe the parts I like, except to say:
it's like the writing on the last page of the New Yorker but read by actors
with nice voices) and it's not a bad way to pass an hour as long as you're
also doing something else.

http://www.wnyc.org/new/NextBigThing/NextBigThingDescription.html

--

Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
http://www.worldnewyork.org/
646 296 2260


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  7 06:29:36 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 02:29:36 EDT
Subject: Whymper's Alaska/California slang (1868)
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.022936.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TRAVEL AND ADVENTURE
IN THE TERRITORY OF ALASKA
by Frederick Whymper
New York: Harper Brothers
1869

   OED has about 20 cites from this book and gives it as 1868.
   I just spent a frustrating half hour looking through the RHHDAS and the
ADS-L archives for "eat crow"--maybe I looked in the wrong places.  Anyway,
I'll present the items (all interesting, but not all antedates) and you can
look 'em up.

Pg. 42:  They begged for a "potlatch" or gift, and, glad to get rid of them,
I acceded to their request for a little flour, tobacco, etc.
(I think this would be OED's second "potlatch"--ed.)

Pg. 42:  *"King George man," in the Chinook jargoon (a mixture of Emglish,
French, and Indian, used as a means of converse among most of the white men
and natives of the coast), simply menas an Englishman, and was originated by
the fact that our first acquaintance with them was made in the Georgian era.
"Boston man," or "Boston" simply, stands for an American; the first vessels
bearing the stars and stripes hailed from that port.
(Would be the third "Boston" cite in DARE--ed.)

Pg. 50:  He afterward told us, pointing back to the place with a shudder,
"_Hyu si-wash hyack clattawa keekwully ya-wa_!"--"Many savages (Indians) had
quickly gone to the bottom there," or had found a watery grave.

Pg. 54:  ...were at work "blazing," _i. e._, marking the trees with an axe to
show where the trail should go.

Pg. 56:  The ideal Red-skin...
Pg. 57:  ...the "pale-faces."

Pg. 102:  ...ranging from Cognac to raw _vodka_, of a class which can only be
described by a Californian term as "chain lightning"...
(RHHDAS has "chain lightning" from 1837.  California term?--ed.)

Pg. 116:  Perhaps quite as lucid an explanation as you could get from an
agricultural laborer or a "city Arab" at home.
(DARE's earliest "Arab" is 1903?--ed.)

Pg. 136:  When we were tired of games--one of them a Russian version of "hunt
the slipper"...

Pg. 189:  My first acquaintance with the Yukon, in common with several of my
companions, was made sliding down the bank at a rate of "2.40" (to use an
Americanism),* comfortably seated on my snow-shoes.
*Two minutes forty seconds is the time taken by a high-class trotting-horse
to run a mile.

Pg. 198:  Our banquet of baked ptarmigan and fried ham, pancakes (known,
reader, by the poetical name of "flap-jacks") molasses (known by us as
"long-tailed sugar"), and coffee, pleased our Russian friends well, but our
tea was not to their standard.

Pg. 229:  They "ken eat crow, tho' they don't hanker arter it."
(The original wording of OED's first "eat crow" cite?--ed.)

Pg. 300:  Again Fr'isco (as her citizens lovingly call her)...
(Peter Tamony would disagree with that--ed.)

Pg. 300:  ...the advertising "medium" walking with his boards _a la
sandwich_...

Pg. 301:  There was certainly the "Emperor Norton," a kind of half-witted
fellow, clothed in regimentals, who issued pompous proclamations, and
subsisted by levying black-mail on those who were amused by his fooleries, or
on the "free lunches" of the bar-rooms.

Pg. 304:  Although San Francisco is full of bar-rooms, "saloons," and Dutch
_lager bier_ cellars (the German family are all called Dutchman in San
Francisco, and the same title is given usually to Norwegians, Swedes, and
Danes--I have even known a Switzer called a Dutchman!), there is little
drunkenness to be observed.

Pg. 308:  ...was, in Californian phraselogy, a "high-toned and elegant"
affair.  The "carte" included sharks' fins, birds'-nest soup, reindeer
sinews, geranium and violet cakes, samshoo and rose wine, but was not
deficient in the good things of our _cuisine_, accompanied by an unlimited
supply of champagne.
(No "chop suey" in this 1868 Californian Chinese menu--ed.)

Pg. 309:  SOCIETY in the "Bay City," though still a little "mixed," to use a
Californian phrase, is, taking it altogether, a much heartier, jollier,
sincerer thing than elsewhere.  Californians will have none of the airs of
the high and mighty; they call it "putting on frills," they say that sort of
thing is "played out," and recommend such to "vamose the ranch," or get from
their sight.  Ask them how they are, and the answer is pat, "Oh, gay and
festive," with probably the affirmative positive, "you bet," or may be "you
bet your boots."  If a preacher, actor, or writer indulges in an exaggerated
manner, they say "he piles on the agony" too much, has a "spread-eagle" or
"high-falutin" style about him.  The derivation of the last term is involved
in mystery.  Many of the common expressions are taken from mining operations
and experiences.  "It panned out well," means that "it gave good returns."
"Show," or "color," from the indications of gold in gravel or sand, are words
used in various shapes.  "I have not a show," means I have no chance.  "We
have not seen the 'color' of his money," means he has not paid up a farthing.
 "Prospect"--to search for gold--is used in many ways; ask if a speculation
promises well, they may answer, "It prospects well, (Pg. 310--ed.) if we can
only make the riffle," the last an allusion to successfully getting over a
"rapid" or "riffle" on a river.  Or,if the thing has disappointed, it may be,
"We got down to the 'bed rock," and found it a 'bilk'"--Californian for a
humbug.
   If one looks anxious, they say, "There's a heap of trouble on the old
man's mind;" and if one is got up elaborately in a "biled shirt" (_i. e._,
white shirt), a "stove-pipe" (or as we say, "chimney-pot") hat, and a suit of
new broadcloth, one is apt to be asked, "You've rather spread yourself,
haven't you?"  It is common for men to shave a good deal, and the city is
full of barbers' shops, where you can get yourself shaved and your boots
blacked at one and the same time.  These establishments are often luxuriously
fitted up, and beat any thing of the kind to be seen in the "Eastern" States.
 Beards are termed "chin-whiskers," and our "whiskers" are distinguished as
side-whiskers."  The terms for most things are on a more magnificent scale
than with us.  A bar-room is invariably a "saloon," an eating-house, a
"restaurant" (pronounced in an ANglicized manner), and a shop is a "store."
A good substantial repast is known as a "square" meal all over this coast,
and the term is applied to many other things.  A "square" drink is a "deep,
deep draught," and a good "square fight" is an encounter or "muss" where the
opponents were in earnest.  Some of these terms are common to the "Western"
States and outlying "territories," but can not be regarded as full-blooded
Americanisms.  They attract just as much notice from "Eastern" men travelling
in California as they do from Europeans.
   Listen to a quarrel in the streets: one calls the other a "regular dead
beat!" at which he, in return, threatens to "put a head on him!" whereupon
the first sneeringly retorts, "up a flume," the equivalent of a vulgar
cockney's (Pg. 311--ed.) "over the left."  If one or the other "weakens," or
shows signs of "caving" in and leaving, he is said to "get up and dust."  It
is then the business of his opponent to "corral" him in a corner--a term
taken from the Spanish for catching and shutting up cattle in an enclosure.
This last phrase is used in a variety of ways.  A police officer "corrals" an
offender, a greedy man at table "corrals" all the delicacies, and a broker
"corrals" all the stock of a company, and controls the market, and so on.

(David Shulman told me the guy's name and the program name, and I typed what
he told me...A 1741 "shiksa" and "yurt" probably tomorrow--ed.)


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Fri Jun  7 07:36:10 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 00:36:10 -0700
Subject: Example of apparent Principle A violation
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.003610.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The "Polite Reflexive" seems to be emerging as standard in British English
(or are the Welsh just ahead of the curve?). Two examples in one
paragraph! What say you, Lynne?

        Rudy


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:42:06 -0700
>From: "Martin Padget" <mtp at aber.ac.uk>

>The conference notice below hopefully will be of interest to yourself and
>colleagues.  Information about the conference is being circulated on
>various list servers, but I am sending an email directly to yourself in
>the hope that the message will reach you and your colleagues in American
>literature/Ameridan Studies directly.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Martin Padget
>
>
>British Association for American Studies, Annual Conference, 2003
>University of Wales, Aberystwyth
>April 11-14, 2003


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  7 12:53:59 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 08:53:59 -0400
Subject: dubious usages
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.085359.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Already this morning I have encountered:

1.  at a construction area the highway people posted signs showing how to get to businesses whose normal access to the main roads had been blocked off by the construction.  One such sign read "DINER".  If you follow it, you will find yourself at a McDonald's.

2.  a porno spam message in my e-mailbox entitled "Napster of Porn !!!"

Also some notes to Barry Popik:  I'm not sure but I think the "Potlatch" was a custom of American Indians in the Columbia River/Puget Sound area, not Alaska.

As for "city Arab", that apparently was a well-known usage in England well before 1903---Conan Doyle in his Sherlock Holmes stories was found of referring to "street Arabs"

in my experience, a pancake/hotcake/griddlecake is a "flapjack" ONLY if it gets turned by being tossed well up into the air

"Emperor Norton" was a well-documented San Francisco character.  I have never seen him described as "half-witted"; from most descriptions he was an intelligent and well-educated man who had what was then probably called "dementia", his idee fixe being that he was the Emperor of something.  "blackmail" is an unlikely term in this context, especially considering the word "amused" in the same line.  "Levying taxes" is a plausible emendation.

A "biled shirt" should be a starched shirt ("boiled shirt", as it is boiled in starch) rather than simply a white shirt.  I am told that "stuffed shirt" meaning a pompous man is a reference to the idea that men who went to the trouble of wearing "stuffed" or starched shirts were necessarily putting on airs.

       - Jim Landau


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Fri Jun  7 16:14:27 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:14:27 -0700
Subject: Yurt, Baidar (1774); Angora (1784)
In-Reply-To: <70.1dd6d311.2a314e39@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.091427.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> AN ACCOUNT OF THE NEW NORTHERN ARCHIPELAGO, LATELY DISCOVERED BY THE RUSSIANS
> by Mr. J. von Staehlin
> London: C. Heydinger
> 1774
>
> Pg. 31:  ...several other species, known only in these waters, and called
> _Kirschutsch_, _Chaiko_, _Pestraiki_, _Postuschina_, &c.
> (OED?--ed.)
>

Species of what? Fish?

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Fri Jun  7 18:25:29 2002
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:25:29 -0400
Subject: potlatch (was Re: dubious usages}
In-Reply-To: <3BA8459B.0750C220.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.142529.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Potlatches were (and in the odd case, still are) a custom of northwest
coastal tribes, stretching from Puget Sound and the Kitsap Peninsula all
the way up the coast of British Columbia to the entire Gulf Coast of lower
Alaska, including areas where both Juneau and Anchorage are today. The
Tlingit nation in particular had a huge geographic range and many
sub-tribes. Tribes would come from many miles inland to gigantic
potlatches, but there were also many smaller (relatively speaking, anyway)
local potlatches. Puget Sound actually lies toward the southern end of the
geographic range of the tribes that shared the potlatch culture, with the
Columbia River marking the more-or-less official furthest southern
boundary. Totem poles with clan histories were raised at potlatches, and
these meetings were so significant that the government saw them as a threat
and banned them.

--Wendalyn Nichols, northwest born and bred

At 08:53 AM 6/7/02 -0400, James A. Landau wrote:
>Already this morning I have encountered:
>
>1.  at a construction area the highway people posted signs showing how to
>get to businesses whose normal access to the main roads had been blocked
>off by the construction.  One such sign read "DINER".  If you follow it,
>you will find yourself at a McDonald's.
>
>2.  a porno spam message in my e-mailbox entitled "Napster of Porn !!!"
>
>Also some notes to Barry Popik:  I'm not sure but I think the "Potlatch"
>was a custom of American Indians in the Columbia River/Puget Sound area,
>not Alaska.
>
>As for "city Arab", that apparently was a well-known usage in England well
>before 1903---Conan Doyle in his Sherlock Holmes stories was found of
>referring to "street Arabs"
>
>in my experience, a pancake/hotcake/griddlecake is a "flapjack" ONLY if it
>gets turned by being tossed well up into the air
>
>"Emperor Norton" was a well-documented San Francisco character.  I have
>never seen him described as "half-witted"; from most descriptions he was
>an intelligent and well-educated man who had what was then probably called
>"dementia", his idee fixe being that he was the Emperor of
>something.  "blackmail" is an unlikely term in this context, especially
>considering the word "amused" in the same line.  "Levying taxes" is a
>plausible emendation.
>
>A "biled shirt" should be a starched shirt ("boiled shirt", as it is
>boiled in starch) rather than simply a white shirt.  I am told that
>"stuffed shirt" meaning a pompous man is a reference to the idea that men
>who went to the trouble of wearing "stuffed" or starched shirts were
>necessarily putting on airs.
>
>        - Jim Landau


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Fri Jun  7 19:09:01 2002
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:09:01 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
In-Reply-To: <NJEFLDNDEIDMAKCHIMJGGECKCFAA.rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.150901.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I take your point about the difference in the scope between a
personal situation and a government policy.  But I did see
something analogous between this little exchange and the global
problem we're facing now, in that it involved a clash between two
completely legitimate concerns:  on the one hand, the need to
ensure safety by reacting defensively to a previously-experienced
pattern of danger;  on the other hand, the need to respect the
dignity of persons who might mistakenly be perceived as
dangerous.  It seems inevitable to me that one concern will trump
the other, at least some of the time, and not because any one
group has a monopoly on prejudice and stupidity:  forgive my
cynicism, but think it's pretty universally distributed.

Joanne


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  7 19:42:04 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:42:04 -0400
Subject: Computer proverbs for Fred Shapiro
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.154204.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computer) has acquired the backronym "[the] Really Interesting Stuff is in the Compiler".

There are other computer backronyms, many satirical (e.g. IBM = "Itty Bitty Machines"), but this is the only one I know of that expresses a serious thought.

I don't know when the acronym RISC first appeared.  If I had to guess, I'd say the mid-1980's.  However, the first commercially successful RISC computer was the CDC 6600 of circa 1963, and the idea of RISC computers was advocated by Alan M. Turing way back in 1945, when the only electronic computers in existence were the Colossi at Bletchley and Zuse's machine in Germany.

Also, do you have the (now long obsolete) proverb "Nobody ever got fired for recommending IBM"?

     - James A. Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  8 01:20:00 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 21:20:00 EDT
Subject: Big Four; Big Father; Alaskan terms (1741-1742)
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.212000.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BIG FOUR

Big Four  (Denali National Park, Alaska)--moose, caribou, wolf, brown bear
Big Five (Kruger National Park, South Africa)--buffalo, rhino, elephant,
lion, leopard

   I will be in Alaska for about eight days, beginning June 25.  Denali
appears to pump its "big four" as Africa does its "big five" animals.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BIG FATHER

A JOURNEY TO ALASKA IN THE YEAR 1868:
BEING A DIARY OF THE LATE EMIL TEICHMANN
edited with an introduction by his son Oskar
Argosy-Antiquarian Ltd., New York
1963

Pg. 47:  The little town, which on our previous visit had been so quiet, was
now somewhat excited by the arrival of a delegation consisting of three
Indian chiefs fromj Eastern Oregon, who were about to make the long journey
to Washington in order to lay before the "Big Father" (as they call the
President) complaints about the non-delivery of the supplies of blankets and
foodstuffs which they has hitherto received regularly, to carry them through
the winter months.

Pg. 112:  A this time the majority of the "Bucks" (or men) were away on a
fishing expedition to the River Nass...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
JOURNAL OF A VOYAGE WITH BERING, 1741-1742
by Georg Wilhelm Steller
edited and with an introduction by O. W. Frost
translated by Margritt A. Engel and O. W. Frost
Stanford University Press, Stanford, CA
1988

   I don't know what date OED wants to give this, but it has tons of terms.

Pg. 38:
1793  Peter Simon Pallas's edition of Steller's journal, issued in St.
Petersburg.
1925  First complete English translation of Steller's journal by Leonhard
Stejneger, based on Pallas's edition.

Pg. 65:  ...leftover _iukola_, or dried fish...
Pg. 65:  ...blue mussels or _musculi_...

Pg. 67:  _Lukoshki_, or receptacles made of bark...

Pg. 91:  ...Greenland pigeons, sea parrots, and _michagatkas_.
Pg. 91:  Of fish, we saw _malma_ and _ramsha_.

Pg. 93:  Excepting the lingonberries and black crowberries (or _shiksha_)
found here abundantly, the plants of greatest use to us were the magnificent
antisorbutic plants, such as _Cochlearia_, _Lapathum folio cubitali_,
_Gentiana_, and other cresslike plants that I gathered only for my use and
the Captain-Commander's.

Pg. 120:  ...a diver, called _starik_, came flying aboard ship at nighttime.

Pg. 129:  ...partly slaying them with an ax, partly stabbing them with a
Iakut _palma_.

Pg. 142:  ...Luka Alekseev's yurt.
("Yurt" is also on two other pages, and is listed in the index--ed.)

Pg. 143:  Instead, every day we fried fresh Siberian _kolaches_, or cakes, in
seal or whale oil and finally in manatee fat.
(OED has "kolach" as a Czech word, not a Russian one.  OED's first citation
is 1918, when it was coined by novelist Willa Cather.  Boy, this is bad--ed.)

Pg. 147:  The nursing otters, which because of their poor pelts are called
_medvedki_, or young bears, can be compared at all times with a nursing lamb
because of their tenderness, both roasted and boiled.

Pg. 156:  Afterwards Lieutenant Waxell invited each and all to his dwelling,
and in the absence of other beverages entertained us with Mongolian
_saturan_, or tea soup, with flour roasted in butter.
("Saturan" is not in OED?--ed.)

Pg. 227:
   Glossary
Terms below are defined as Steller used them.
ADJUNCT...
AMBAR (Russian).  Structure for storing supplies, including food.  The
underground structure Steller found on Kayak Island (Chapter 2) he also
called a _cellar_.  Underground swellings on Kamchatka, the Aleutians, and
along the Alaska coastline were called _barabaras_ (Kamchadal).
ARSHIN (Russian).  28 inches.
BAIDAR (Russian).  Large, open, skin-covered, wood-framed boat rowed with
oars.  The Aleut skinboat Steller described (Chapter 5) became known as a
_baidarka_ or _kayak_ (Aleut); it is portable, has a deck with a hatch, and
is propelled by a single paddle with a blade at each end.
CAPTAIN-COMMANDER...
COSSSACK (Tatar).  Any hired person, or soldier or sailor, on RUssia's
frontier.
ELL (Old English)...
FATHOM (English)...
FLEET MASTER...
GALLIOT (Latin)...
GEODESIST (Greek)...
MILE, Dutch or German...
Pg. 228:
NOS (Russian).  Cape, peninsula; literally "nose."
OSTROG (Russian).  Fortified settlement.  In his _Beschreibung von dem Lande
Kamtschatka_, Steller applied the term to any settlement, whether Russian for
or native village, on Kamchatka.
PACKET BOAT...
PROMYSEL (Russian).  A hunt.  In SIberia and the North Pacific, a hunter,
trapper, or trader was known as a _promyshlennik_.
PUD (Russian).  36 pounds.
SLUZHIV (Russian).  Low-ranking government employee, civilian or military.
VERST (Russian).  0.66 English statute miles.
YAWL (Dutch).


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  8 17:13:35 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 13:13:35 -0400
Subject: Turkish national epithets (1801)
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.131335.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A SURVEY OF THE TURKISH EMPIRE
by W. Efon
the third edition
London: T. Cadell
1801

   I don't know the dates of the first two editions.  There's much in this book, but I found the epithets very interesting.  The last (gypsy-chingani) adds to my work on gypsy names.
   The first and third column entries are in italics, but I'm too lazy to do that and I've only got a few minutes.

Pg. 192:
   EPITHETS which the Turks apply to those who are not Osmanlis, and which they often use to denominate their nation.

Albanians...gut-sellers...(giguirgee)
Armenians...t-rd eaters, dirt-eaters, also, pack-carriers...(bokchee)
Bosniaks and Bulgarians...vagabonds...(potur)
Christians...idolaters...(purpurest)
Dutch...cheese-mongers...(penirgee)
English...atheists...(dinsis) i.e. having no religion
Flemmings...panders...(felamink, pezevink)
French...faithless...(fransis, imansis)
Georgians...louse-eaters...(bityeyedsi)
Germans...infidel blasphemers...(gurur kiafer)
Greeks of the islands...hares...(tawshan)
Italians or Franks...many-coloured...(firenki, hassarrenki)
Jews...mangy dogs...(chefut)
Moldavians...drones...(bogdon, nadan)
Poles...insolent infidels...(fudul guiaur)
Russians...mad infidels...(russ, menkius)
Spaniards...lazy...(tembel)
Tatars...carrion-eaters...(lashyeyedgee)
Walachians...gypsies...(chingani)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  8 17:19:29 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 13:19:29 -0400
Subject: Sugar and Mugar,
 Cahue and Mahue (Turkish national epithets (1801))
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.131929.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the same book.

Pg. 32:
   "What has he loaded with?" asks the kadi--the Arbab answers, "_with cahue (coffee) and mahue_," _i. e. coffee et cetera_ (changing the first letter into _m_ makes a kind of gibberish word, which signifies _et cetera_) "_sugar and mugar, pots and mots, sacks and macks_," _&c._...

(Is this in OED's revised "m" entry?--ed.)


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sun Jun  9 01:00:45 2002
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 18:00:45 -0700
Subject: dubious usages
In-Reply-To: <3BA8459B.0750C220.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.180045.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Northwest Coast Indians seems to be the commonly used term,
which is a narrow strip from SE Alaska and British Columbia down to
Oregon and maybe Northern California.

Benjamin Barrett

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of James A. Landau

> Also some notes to Barry Popik:  I'm not sure but I think
> the "Potlatch" was a custom of American Indians in the
> Columbia River/Puget Sound area, not Alaska.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  9 01:46:07 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 21:46:07 EDT
Subject: Troubadour, Brie (1739); Nu, Kolbash (1904)
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.214607.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TROUBADOUR, BRIE

THE JEWISH SPY
by Marquis D'Argens
London: D. Browne
1739

Pg. iii:  The Printer's Devil.

Pg. 65:  *_Chelibi_, a young _Turkish_ Nobleman.

Pg. 100:  ...resemble the cheeses of _Brie_, which are not good, till they
are of such an age.
(See other "Brie" posts.  OED first cites "Brie" over 100 years later--ed.)

Pg. 123:  ...they play at Chess, or at Mangela"...
*A _Turkish_ Game, which they play with little Shells.
(Not in the revised OED?--ed.)

Pg. 277:  The _Troubadours_*...
*A sort of Minstrels that sung and play'd at the same time on the Violin.
(OED & M-W have 1741 for "troubadour"--ed.)

-----------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------
NU

RUSSIA AS IT REALLY IS
by Carl Joubert
Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott Company
1905 (copyright 1904)

Pg. 9:  ..._pirrogs_ (meat pies)...
(Several cites on this page.  See prior posts--ed.)

Pg. 29:  Surely he can eat _kapusta_ and black bread without knowing who
discovered America!
(OED?--ed.)

Pg. 53:  In a _traktir_ (tea-shop and restaurant) in Tiflis two mousiks sat
at a table and called for _vodka_.

Pg. 56:  "I have not yet eaten my _kasha_, and I will not let the Holy Mother
call me until I have dined."

Pg. 89:  Now the "shaitel" is a wig, and when a Jewess is married she is
required to cut off her hair and wear a "shaitel."
(OED has 1892, then 1957 for "shaitel"--ed.)

Pg. 92:  "To give the shirt off one's back" has become a common metaphorical
phrase in our own country, but I could not believe that it was a form of
benevolence that was actually practised.

Pg. 94:  "Nu!  Nu!  Why don't you come?"
(OED has 1892, then 1945--ed.)

Pg. 109:  ...the "Shatchen."  He is to be found in every town in Russia, and
his business is to bring together suitable couples for matrimonial purposes.
(OED from 1890--ed.)

Pg. 278:  So he washed down the last mouthful of the _kolbash_, which he was
eating, with a glass of _vodka_ and turned a beaming countenance towards me.
(OED has a very late 1953 for "kielbasa," and "kolbasa" is mentioned
there--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MISC.

   David Shulman said that he spent two-and-a-half hours with Dean Olsher on
Friday (yesterday).  The show will air on WYNC (NPR) at 11 a.m. Sunday
(tomorrow).  It'll be cut to six minutes.
   The "species" cited in a previous post is "fish."
   Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis over Shaq in four.  Nets win NBA championship.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  9 02:22:11 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 22:22:11 EDT
Subject: Beigle (1929; Bagel, in 1870s, in Belarus?)
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.222211.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CHILDHOOD IN EXILE
by Shmarya Levin
New York:  Harcourt, Brace and Company
1929

   Shamarya Levin (1867-1935) writes about his childhood in 1870s Swislowitz,
which is now in Belarus.  OED records "bagel" (1932) and "beigel" (1919), but
not "beigle."  The spelling, the early date of recollection, and the
frequency of use here all make this "beigle" important.


Pg. 14:  ..._karobka_--the Kosher meat tax...

Pg. 15:  ..._cheder_ (elementary Hebrew school)...
(OED has "cheder" from 1880--ed.)

Pg. 36:  ...the _goy_, the gentile.

Pg. 46:  ...he was a Luftmensch, living from hand to mouth...

Pg. 68:  There they received a glass of whisky, and a _beigle_--a sort of
doughnut, to go down with it.  "Go down with it" is a euphemism.  Some of the
workers used to settle quietly down to work, and pack away fifteen and twenty
_beigles_.  But the term "appetizer" was not an exact one in Swislowitz.

Pg. 69:  ...and dried _tarane_, a small flat fish which abounded in the
rivers.

Pg. 110:  They brought their food along with them, and most of the time it
consisted of a piece of unbuttered bread, a tail of salt herring, and a
_beigle_--a sort of doughnut--for dessert.  If the bread was buttered, or
smeared with chicken fat, the herring or the doughnut was "off."

Pg. 111:  Of dairy food they knew only sour milk and an occasional piece of
cheese.

Pg. 119:  Between afternoon and evening prayer they used to go down to the
river and watch the ice-floes.  The early ice-floes looked soft, vague.  The
peasants used to call them "lard-floes," and the Jews, to avoid mention of
swine-meat, called them "chicken-fat" floes.

Pg. 130:  He was kept comfortably warm, and they fed him bread and "white
herring."
   "White herring!"  There is no such thing!  Like a lightning flash the
truth broke on the assembled congregants.  The child had been fed bacon!

Pg. 139:  There after comes the crown of the meal, the _kugel_, the Sabbath
pudding, majestic, satisfying, somniferous.

Pg. 142:  It was a difficult and thankless profession, but Cherneh could not
raise the price for fear of competition on the part of the bakers of
_beigle_, or doughnuts.  It was generally conceded that though the pancake
was heavier and more satisfying, the _beigle_ was daintier and sweeter: it
was therefore impossible to give either of them the advantage of price.  And
Cherneh used to complain bitterly: "Would to God I had begun with beigle
instead of pancakes.  But too late now.  I am known as Cherneh the pancake
maker, and I daren't experiment."

Pg. 151:  The gorgeous three-cornered little cakes, stuffed with nuts and
poppy seed, which are called Haman's ears, (Pg. 152--ed.) had been prepared
in vast numbers for us.
(OED has 1846 for "Haman's fritters," then 1949 for "Haman's ears"--ed.)

Pg. 156:  ...the Sabbath _goy_ (the gentile hired to make fire on the Sabbath
and perform other duties forbidden us on that day)...

Pg. 171:  ...Afikomen (a specially dedicated Matzoh)...
(OED has 1891 for "afikomen"--ed.)

Pg. 177:  The girls played at Pots and Pans.  Among the boys the favourite
game was Odds and Evens.  All you had to do was guess whether your opponent
held an odd or an even number of nuts in his hand.

Pg. 236:
My King can swim
And yours will sink;
My king is a hero
And yours is a --.
(Fink?  OED has that from 1903.  This was said in the 1870s, in Russia, in
English??  One prior verse is here--ed.)

Pg. 238:  ..."Doctor" Schwartz, a _feldsher_ or half-trained village
doctor...

Pg. 261:  In his house it is customary to hand out on Friday some of the
blintzes (small hot cheese pies) which are left to warm in the oven for the
Sabbath meal.  (Pg. 262--ed.)  Hot _blintzes_ in sour cream.  And now
imagine, gentlemen, I had to pick up one of these luscious _blintzes_, I roll
it over and over in thick cream, and I put it in my mouth.  To swallow such a
blintze is not one of the most painful sensations in life. ...
(OED has 1903 for "blintze."  Again, the date referred to is the 1870s--ed.)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun  9 02:47:14 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 22:47:14 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Bagel"
In-Reply-To: <11f.11d01127.2a3415d3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.224714.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 8 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> OED records "bagel" (1932) and "beigel" (1919)

Here's an earlier citation for "bagel":

1930 _N.Y. Times_ 14 Sept. 49  NEW INCORPORATIONS ... Hollywood Bagel
Baking Co., Newark, general bakery - Herman B. J. Weckstein, Newark.


Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  9 05:32:58 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 01:32:58 EDT
Subject: Rayah, Mocha & Yemen Coffee (1801)
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.013258.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A SURVEY OF THE TURKISH EMPIRE
by W. Efon
Third edition
London: T Cadell
1801

   A bit more from this book...The Detroit Red Wings just defeated the
Carolina Hurricanes in the third overtime.  Oh, there's gotta be another
sports event on tv somewhere.

Pg. 97:  Every _raya_ (that is, every subject who is not of the Mahomedian
religion)...
(OED has 1813 for "rayah"--ed.)

Pg. 230:  ...Yemen coffee...
Pg. 231:  ...Mocha coffee...
(OED has 1773 for "Mocco," and the next cite for "Mocha coffee" is 1819--ed.)


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Sun Jun  9 10:13:31 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 06:13:31 -0400
Subject: "strong like bull"
In-Reply-To: <NJEFLDNDEIDMAKCHIMJGGEBHCFAA.rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.061331.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Said with a fake Russian accent, the bull pronounced booool.

All of a sudden, younger kids are saying this here.  Seems like it's a
retread from a decade earlier.  Surely from a movie or TV program, perhaps
Saturday Night Live.  Any idea of the origins?

rhk


From pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Sun Jun  9 13:08:38 2002
From: pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Peter Farruggio)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 06:08:38 -0700
Subject: "strong like bull"
In-Reply-To: <NJEFLDNDEIDMAKCHIMJGCEECCFAA.rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.060838.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's from the Rockie and Bullwinkle cartoon show of the 1960s.  There was a
regular segment each week about the Russian spies Boris and Natasha, and
Boris would occasionally comment about some peasant girl who was "beeeg and
strong like booool"  The show was written for adults and was popular with
boomer college students, the same crowd that read MAD magazine in the 1950s
for its anti-Establishment sarcasm and satire.  I started to hear the
phrase "big and strong..." in popular discourse in the late 1960s or early
1970s, after the show was off the air, but can't remember who revived it
from the original source.

Pete Farruggio




At 03:13 AM 6/9/02, Rick Kennerly wrote:

>Said with a fake Russian accent, the bull pronounced booool.
>
>All of a sudden, younger kids are saying this here.  Seems like it's a
>retread from a decade earlier.  Surely from a movie or TV program, perhaps
>Saturday Night Live.  Any idea of the origins?
>
>rhk
>
>
>---
>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/02

From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sun Jun  9 13:16:14 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 09:16:14 -0400
Subject: "strong like bull"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020609055718.02a9ca90@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.091614.0400.>

We discussed this about a year ago. The conversation in the archives may be
enlightening.

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S2=ads-l&q=strong+like+bull&s=&f
=&a=&b=


--

Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
http://www.worldnewyork.org/
646 296 2260


From pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Sun Jun  9 13:30:45 2002
From: pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Peter Farruggio)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 06:30:45 -0700
Subject: "strong like bull"
In-Reply-To: <B928CD5E.47C3%gbarrett@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.063045.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks.  Just checked the archives and remembered the Uncle Tonoose
connection from the Danny Thomas Show (1950s).  So it looks like the Rocky
and Bullwinkle writers (1960s) took it from there and gave it to Boris
Badenov.  Any prior references?  How about post-60s?




At 06:16 AM 6/9/02, Grant Barrett wrote:

>We discussed this about a year ago. The conversation in the archives may be
>enlightening.
>
>http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S2=ads-l&q=strong+like+bull&s=&f
>=&a=&b=
>
>
>--
>
>Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
>gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
>http://www.worldnewyork.org/
>646 296 2260
>
>
>---
>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/02
-------------- next part --------------

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/02

From dave at WILTON.NET  Sun Jun  9 16:15:20 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 09:15:20 -0700
Subject: "strong like bull"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020609062549.02a86e00@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.091520.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

_The Adventures of Rocky and Bullwinkle_ was made into a feature movie in
2000. Perhaps the line was repeated in that?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Peter Farruggio
> Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 6:31 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "strong like bull"
>
>
> Thanks.  Just checked the archives and remembered the Uncle Tonoose
> connection from the Danny Thomas Show (1950s).  So it looks
> like the Rocky
> and Bullwinkle writers (1960s) took it from there and gave it to Boris
> Badenov.  Any prior references?  How about post-60s?


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Jun  9 19:37:20 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 15:37:20 -0400
Subject: Boo-Boo
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.153720.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Safire's On Language column today discusses "boo-boo," a blunder or egregious error, of uncertain derivation, first OED cite 1954.  Is there any connection to the presumably unflattering nickname, most familiar as the name of Yogi Bear's sidekick?  Boo-Boo Bear didn't come along until 1958, but the nickname is older; a 1938 court case has a party named 'Boo Boo' Hoff.  Murray Hill Restaurant v. Thirteen Twenty One Locust, 98 F.2d 578 (3d Cir. 1938).

John Baker


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun  9 19:46:10 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 15:46:10 -0400
Subject: Sidelight on "Big Apple"
In-Reply-To: <D9BA04198D5C154F901F45D28E4866B5012D41A2@phex01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.154610.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The earliest known usage of "Big Apple" meaning New York City is dated
1909 (the New York Historical Society/Cohen discovery, supported by
Safire), or 1924 (the Popik discovery, supported by Shapiro), or 1928 (the
Shapiro discovery, supported by Cohen).

The following 1897 citation that I have discovered, although clearly not
an example of "Big Apple" meaning New York City, might be considered to
join the 1909 citation as a coincidental foreshadowing of the term:

1897 _N.Y. Times_ 10 Oct. SM10  An entertaining little book entitled "Some
Facts About the New York Market," has been issued by the Merchants'
Association, and it is exciting considerable comment in other cities.  Its
unique feature is the illustration by means of graded pictures, of the
relative size of New York's industries, and the industries of six or eight
of the large cities of this country. ... In the fruit and nut trade New
York takes precedence with a big apple, while the second city has only a
cherry.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Sun Jun  9 20:50:19 2002
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 16:50:19 -0400
Subject: Sidelight on "Big Apple"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0206091540050.27638-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu >
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.165019.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Neat!  But what was the "second city" at the time, and what's the
connection with cherries?

At 03:46 PM 6/9/02 -0400, you wrote:
>The earliest known usage of "Big Apple" meaning New York City is dated
>1909 (the New York Historical Society/Cohen discovery, supported by
>Safire), or 1924 (the Popik discovery, supported by Shapiro), or 1928 (the
>Shapiro discovery, supported by Cohen).
>
>The following 1897 citation that I have discovered, although clearly not
>an example of "Big Apple" meaning New York City, might be considered to
>join the 1909 citation as a coincidental foreshadowing of the term:
>
>1897 _N.Y. Times_ 10 Oct. SM10  An entertaining little book entitled "Some
>Facts About the New York Market," has been issued by the Merchants'
>Association, and it is exciting considerable comment in other cities.  Its
>unique feature is the illustration by means of graded pictures, of the
>relative size of New York's industries, and the industries of six or eight
>of the large cities of this country. ... In the fruit and nut trade New
>York takes precedence with a big apple, while the second city has only a
>cherry.
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
>Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
>Yale Law School                             forthcoming
>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  9 23:18:54 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 19:18:54 -0400
Subject: Turkish Beigel (Bella Chagall, 1940s); 1897 NYT "Big Apple"
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.191854.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

1897 "BIG APPLE" IN NEW YORK TIMES

   When I first started my search, I thoroughly looked through the New York Times Index, and I read every single "apple" subject article.  Over thirty years.  One story was titled "BIG APPLE CROP."  However, as the quality and the frequency of the hits are examined (as we gain full text to various newspapers), it's clear that the pre-1920 citations are isolated.  They're not even re-used by the same sources (NY Times, Edward S. Martin).  The African-American stablehand's claim, and John J. Fitz Gerald's popularization, appear to be strengthened.

---------------------------------------------------------------
TURKISH BEIGEL

BURNING LIGHTS
by Bella Chagall
translated by Norbert Guterman
Schocken Books, New York
1946

   Bella Chagall was married to the artist Marc Chagall.  She was born in Vitebsk, Russia, in 1895, and she died in Cranberry Lake, NY, in 1944.  She wrote in Yiddish.

Pg. 40:  For breakfast, we find on the wide window ledges--in addition to the flat cakes, rolls, and biscuits--a pile of stuffed tsybulnikes.  On Friday no dinner is cooked.  Instead of hot food, everyone gets a tsybulnik pressed into his hand.  Big, thickly filled with fried onions, just as an oven is filled with red coals, the tsybulnik can barely be held in one's hand.  The first bite pastes one's mouth shut, and the dough sticks in one's gullet until it is washed down with a glass of cold milk.

Pg. 52:  "Ah, you're an uncouth fellow, Israel!  Better help me to pull out my sleeve, the lining has suddenly got twisted up like a Turkish beigel."
(TURKISH bagel?--ed.)

Pg. 108:  There are slices of cake, tarts, sponge cake with honey, platters of pickled herring, chopped liver, eggs in goose fat, calf's-foot jelly, fried udders.

Pg. 129:  "She has eaten too many latkes!"

Pg. 169:  "You dumb cluck, you believe everything!"
("Dumb cluck" is used more than once in the book--ed.)

Pg. 175:  "Oi, woe is me, and my Haman-tashen are still in (Pg. 176--ed.) the oven!"

Pg. 242:  Then the knedlach come; they are easily swallowed with the yellow soup.

Pg. 256:  "And my chopped liver!" another waiter shouts.

(A Glossary is on pages 265-268, but it's nothing special--ed.)

Pg. 267:
Shikse (Y)  a gentile maid
Shkutsim (Y)  rascals


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 10 01:35:23 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 21:35:23 EDT
Subject: potlatch
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.213523.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Erna Gunther, translator _The Tlingit Indians_  Seattle: University of
Washington Press, 1956.  This is a translation of Aurel Krause _Der
Tlinkit-Indianer_ Jena: 1885.  The English translation appeared as Monograph
26 of the American Ethnological Society.

There are several descriptions of massive Tlingit gift-giving, particularly
in chapter 8's discussion of cremation customs.  "The cremation was followed
by a large potlach (the distribution of gifts).  The costs of the cremation
ran to about fifty to seventy dollars.  At the potlatch wollen blankets to a
value of five hudnred dollars were torn and distrubted by relatives."  This
cremation is stated to be "described in a disptach to the New York Herald of
April 16, 1881".

Also chapter 9 reads "the relatives of the deceased slaughter one or two
slaves to serve the deceased in the next world, these, however, not being
taken not from the slaves of the deceased, but from their own."  Footnote 4
to chapter 9 adds "According to Veniaminof [1840], generally only slaves who
were sick and weak were designated for sacrifice.  If they managed to escape,
and some chiefs made it possible for them, they could return quietly after
the ceremony without being punished for their flight".

When I was in Alaska in 1974, one of my tour guides said that after the
American takeover of Alaska, the Tlingits held "the potlatch to end all
potlatches" at which all Tlingit slaves were freed.  Apparently in honor of
this, a Tlingit carved a totem pole in the shape of Abraham Lincoln (I saw a
photo of this totem pole.)

Linguistic note:  "totem pole" appears to be a misnomer, having nothing to do
with totems.  "Totem" is an Algonquin word referring to the sacred animal
associated with each clan etc., or perhaps it would be better to say the
sacred animal each clan was associated with.  The point is, there is a
mystical relationship of some sort between the users of a totem and the
animal that serves as the totem.

Apparently people misinterpreted totem poles as depicting totems.  They do
not.  They are simply the Pacific Northwest native equivalent of billboards,
identiying the owner of the pole, boasting, or telling a story.  OED gives
1891 for "totem post" and 1987 for "totem pole", but 1776 for English usage
of Algonquin "totem", with figurative usage of "totem"---In England, not the
New World---in 1890 and 1893.

                             - Jim Landau

PS to Barry Popik: when I was at Mount Denali, a Park Ranger showed us what
the natives fed their sled dogs, namely whole smoked salmons.  They are very
icky-looking things.  The Ranger held one up and asked if anyone wanted to
taste it.  Everybody except me proceeded to look disgusted at the idea.  I
however said, "Sure, if you give me a bagel to go with it."  Spoiled the
Ranger's entire day.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 10 06:07:29 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 02:07:29 EDT
Subject: Bat Mitzvah (1921, 1949); Kosher (1620); Mellah
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.020729.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BAT MITZVAH

   OED has 1950.  Perhaps the online New York Times has something.
   A Google search shows that the first Bat Mitzvah was of Judith Kaplan,
daughter of Reconstructionist leader Mordechai Kaplan, in 1921.  Judith
Kaplan Eisenstein died in 1995.
   This is from JEWISH SOCIAL STUDIES, vol. 11, no. 2, April 1949, pg. 161:

   Girls should be included for the _Bat-Mitzvah_, which is practiced in an
increasing number of congregations.

(For "Bar-Mitzvah," see Joseph Addison's 1600s work on the EEBO
database--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
KOSHER

_kosher._  A Yiddish term for food prepared according to strict Jewish
dietary laws.  The word is taken from the Hebrew _kasher_, "proper," and has
taken on colloquial meanings in America to mean "correct" or "honest" or
"acceptable."
--John Mariani, ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK (1999)

   Merriam Webster says that "kosher" is a "Yiddish" term.  "Kosher" is dated
to 1851.  "Yiddish" is dated to 1886.  Maybe it just took a long while to
name the language?
   I noticed an article titled "Marketing of Kosher Meat" in JEWISH SOCIAL
STUDIES, vol. 23, no. 2, April 1961.  It cites:  Finkelstein, Harry, "The
Kosher Meat Industry," unpublished Master's thesis, the College of Business
Administration, Boston University, 1933.
   This is from JEWISH SOCIAL STUDIES, vol. 16, no. 4, October 1954, pg. 345:

   The Jewish butchers of Prague were the first trade group to prganize a
guild of their own.  The axact year of its founding is unknown, but the
guild's key bears the date 1620.  Engraved on the key are the names of the
two guild wardens, Solomon Wilhartitz and Elias Nefele, and of thirteen guild
members.  At the base of the key is the representation of a lion rampant, the
device of the city of Prague, holding between its forepaws a butcher's axe
inscribed with the Hebrew word _kosher_.*

*Spiegel, Kathe, "Die Prager Juden zur Zeit des dressigjahrigen Kreiges," in
_Die Juden in Prag_ (Prague 1927) p. 130, 180.

(HEBREW word "kosher"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MELLAH

JEWISH SOCIETY IN FEZ
1450-1700
STUDIES IN COMMUNAL AND ECONOMIC LIFE
by Jane S. Gerber
Leiden: E. J. Brill
1980

Pg. 19:  The new Jewish quarter, called the _Mellah_ due to the salty site on
which it was located, became the prototype of the Moroccan ghetto.  The very
name was soon applied, along with Juderia or Juiverie, to all the Jewish
ghettos of Morocco.*

*On the term _Mellah_, cf. Gaudefroy de Mombynes, "Mellah," _Journal
Asiatique_, (I, 1914), 651-8.

Pg. 182:  Between such incidents we find numerous references to Jews
cultivating vineyards selling _mahia_ (a Moroccan liquor made from honey)...
("Mahia" is not in the revised OED?--ed.)

("MAROCAIN _MELLAH_" by "M. GAUDEFROY-DEMOMBYNES" doesn't have a single
English-language citation.  The Jews moved into the Fez quarter in 1464-1465.
 However, Leon l'Africain (1516) "ignore le mot _mellah_."  I didn't see an
exact date  --ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
MISC.

   David Shulman said he was interviewed by Dean Olsher.  I said it was THE
NEXT BIG THING and not ALL THINGS CONSIDERED, but he wasn't sure on the name
of the show.  I said that it was unlikely that 2 1/2 hours of a Friday
interview would be reduced to six minutes for an 11 a.m. Sunday show, but he
said it would be on that Sunday.
   It didn't air today.  I wasted one hour of my life listening to a "witty"
song about a prospective egg donor.   And a guess-the-sound contest.  And
pledge drive info.  I called Shulman, and he said he'll call the producer of
the show on Monday.

   Nets in seven.  Their brilliant strategy is to make the Lakers
overconfident by losing the first three games.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 10 07:24:56 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 03:24:56 EDT
Subject: Brauer's "Jews of Kurdistan" glossary & Maza
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.032456.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE JEWS OF KURDISTAN
by Erich Brauer
completed and edited by Raphael Patai
Wayne State University Press, Detroit
1993

   This is a great book.
   Erich Brauer (1895-1942) didn't finish it, but Patai did (50 years ago).
The English version was long overdue.  There is an extensive food chapter and
a large glossary on pages 408-429.  I'll check out Brauer's book on the Jews
of Yemen for a possible "falafel" and for "hilbeh." (See OXFORD COMPANION TO
FOOD.  "Hilbeh" is not in OED.)

Pg. 101:
_Maza_
   A festive meal among the Kurdish Jews never begins with the meal itself.
It is always preceded by a social hour in which there is dancing (Pg.
102--ed.) and singing and the guests are regaled with arrack and _maza_.*
_Maza_ consists of cold fish, cold chicken or _qoqwane_, partridge, roasted
or boiled meat, mushrooms (A. _kwarke_ or else _kame_, a sort of fungi not
known in Amadiya), fruits and nuts.

Pg. 378:
*Maclean, _Grammar_, p. 165: _maza_ (Pers. and Turk.), an appetizer, a whet
before dinner.  On _maza_ at Turkish drinking bouts, see Arminius Vambery,
_Sittenbilder aus dem Morgenlande_, Berlin, 1876, p. 78.

(The following are  selected "m" glossary items--ed.)

madira, rice-buttermilk dish
magila, copper kettle
mankheda, Torah pointer
masbah, cap worn by Christians
masloqa, fat meat soup
mast, masta, leben, curdled milk
maza, mixed diswh of food
megala, megilla, Purim
mijidi, Turkish money unit
mishmara, weekly portion of the Torah


From Peter.Lucko at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE  Mon Jun 10 07:28:05 2002
From: Peter.Lucko at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE (Prof. Peter Lucko)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:28:05 +0200
Subject: evolving subjunctive
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.092805.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>  However, the contingent sentences ("if
> he doesn't stop, he's out") seems fairly common in sportscasterese.

This seems to be a phenomenon that surpasses language boundaries: I have often wondered why german sportscasters shun the hypothetical subjunctive (Konjunktiv in German) of the "missed chance" type. They invariably say "Die Mannschaft musste noch ein Tor schiessen, statt nur das Resultat zu sichern" instead of "haette noch ein Tor schiessen muessen". I have come to accept it as a marker of a specific functional style, particularly now that I learn it is the same in English.
P.L.
_____________________
Prof. Dr. Peter Lucko
Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin
Institut für Anglistik und Amerikanistik
Unter den Linden 6
10099 Berlin, Germany


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Mon Jun 10 19:05:32 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:05:32 +0100
Subject: Blue cent
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.200532.0100.>

My dictionaries of slang have nothing to say about "blue cent",
meaning an insignificant amount. Can anyone help with an origin
and/or likely age?

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Mon Jun 10 18:11:00 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 11:11:00 -0700
Subject: perception of gender in names
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.111100.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>> adrian.pable at ENS.UNIBE.CH 05/27/02 03:28AM >>>
I always find it difficult as a German speaker to tell whether
certain English names are female or male, e.g. Laurie and Lyle

Lyle is male and Laurie looks female to me.  However, I have dealt with people from other English-speaking countries named Laurie or Lawrie (UK and South Africa, respectively) who are males.  I believe in both cases, it's short for Lawrence.  But it still sounds very odd to me.
On the other hand, my English-speaking high school students have the same problem that you have--they cannot tell if a name is male or female in many cases. Uwe, Uli, Heike, and Kai are a few that are very problematic.  For some reason, Jochen, Joachim, Jo"rg, Ju"rgen, and Jens pose little or even no problem, most students recognising them as male names.  Jan is usually a female name here, so is a problem.

Fritz Juengling
look
female to me. How do speakers of a language establish whether a name
is only used for girls or boys or both? e.g. Faith and April are only
female, but in the 16th centuries names such as Faith, Experience,
Unity, Hope were not gender-bound. Why is it that only a girl may be
called Unity nowadays (because we can see the link with Latin unitas,
female?)

Adrian Pablé, University of Berne

>A question has come over the transom from a UK correspondent. Advice,
>anyone?
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 00:56:20 +0100
>
>Via the letters page of the Guardian newspaper, and then by email, I have
>contacted some people doing research into the perception of gender in names,
>and I was wondering if Dr. Whom (or anyone else) knew of any work already
>done in that area.


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Mon Jun 10 19:33:20 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 15:33:20 -0400
Subject: perception of gender in names
In-Reply-To: <sd048961.002@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.153320.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The perception of gender in names differs between the UK and USA, too.  At
academic meetings we are often put up in university dorms.  These dorms are
coed for the students but when "adults" have to live in them the powers
that be generally put the men in one block and the women in another so they
won't have to share bathrooms (adults being of a delicate and sensitive
nature).  So at one meeting in the USA my colleague named Robin, from
London, found himself all by himself in one block with three showers and
several toilets all for himself while all the other attendees (who were all
male) were in another one.

--Charles Wells

>>>> adrian.pable at ENS.UNIBE.CH 05/27/02 03:28AM >>>
>I always find it difficult as a German speaker to tell whether
>certain English names are female or male, e.g. Laurie and Lyle
>
>Lyle is male and Laurie looks female to me.  However, I have dealt with
>people from other English-speaking countries named Laurie or Lawrie (UK and
>South Africa, respectively) who are males.  I believe in both cases, it's
>short for Lawrence.  But it still sounds very odd to me.
>On the other hand, my English-speaking high school students have the same
>problem that you have--they cannot tell if a name is male or female in many
>cases. Uwe, Uli, Heike, and Kai are a few that are very problematic.  For
>some reason, Jochen, Joachim, Jo"rg, Ju"rgen, and Jens pose little or even
>no problem, most students recognising them as male names.  Jan is usually a
>female name here, so is a problem.
>
>Fritz Juengling
>look
>female to me. How do speakers of a language establish whether a name
>is only used for girls or boys or both? e.g. Faith and April are only
>female, but in the 16th centuries names such as Faith, Experience,
>Unity, Hope were not gender-bound. Why is it that only a girl may be
>called Unity nowadays (because we can see the link with Latin unitas,
>female?)
>
>Adrian Pablé, University of Berne
>
>>A question has come over the transom from a UK correspondent. Advice,
>>anyone?
>>
>>-- Mark A. Mandel
>>
>>
>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 00:56:20 +0100
>>
>>Via the letters page of the Guardian newspaper, and then by email, I have
>>contacted some people doing research into the perception of gender in names,
>>and I was wondering if Dr. Whom (or anyone else) knew of any work already
>>done in that area.



Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 10 19:47:36 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 15:47:36 -0400
Subject: perception of gender in names
In-Reply-To: <sd048961.002@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.154736.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:11 AM -0700 6/10/02, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
>  >>> adrian.pable at ENS.UNIBE.CH 05/27/02 03:28AM >>>
>I always find it difficult as a German speaker to tell whether
>certain English names are female or male, e.g. Laurie and Lyle
>
>Lyle is male and Laurie looks female to me.  However, I have dealt
>with people from other English-speaking countries named Laurie or
>Lawrie (UK and South Africa, respectively) who are males.  I believe
>in both cases, it's short for Lawrence.  But it still sounds very
>odd to me.

I grew up as Laurie (although to survive junior high school I
converted to Larry) and it was short for Laurence.  My mother
believed that Laurence --> Laurie while Lawrence --> Larry, but it
doesn't really work that way most of the time.  I was actually named
for the character Laurie in _Little Women_, whose full name was
Theodore Laurence.  Most of the male Lauries around anymore are from
commonwealth lands--Scotland, maybe England, Canada, and as you say
South Africa, as well as the antipodes, as in our (current?
erstwhile?) listmate, Laurie Bauer from New Zealand.

Larry, né Laurie


From elaine at CHAOS.WUSTL.EDU  Mon Jun 10 19:47:23 2002
From: elaine at CHAOS.WUSTL.EDU (Elaine -HFB- Ashton)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:47:23 -0500
Subject: perception of gender in names
In-Reply-To: <sd048961.002@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.144723.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FRITZ JUENGLING [juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US] quoth:
*>>>> adrian.pable at ENS.UNIBE.CH 05/27/02 03:28AM >>>
*>I always find it difficult as a German speaker to tell whether
*>certain English names are female or male, e.g. Laurie and Lyle

I've found Finnish names to be interesting especially since the language
itself doesn't have a grammatical gender but does have decidedly
male and female names. Since the language is so different the divination
of gender by name is a challenge in some cases since you cannot rely on
the endings to give you a clue. Lauri is a male name in Finland but in the
US, it could be used on either gender since there are no real rules for
naming as if there were such rules, we probably would know immediately
which gender 'Moon Unit" might be :) I suspect that naming and gender are
the domain of the culture and society the language lives in rather than
a function of the language itself.

http://www.sci.fi/%7ekajun/finns/alpha.htm
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/jukka.html

e.


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Mon Jun 10 20:01:53 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:01:53 -0700
Subject: perception of gender in names
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.130153.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurie Bauer is originally from the Uk, I believe. Laurie, are you out there?

In the US, Robin can go either way, as can Toni, Jerry, Lynn, and a host of others. I have a female colleague whose name is Michael.  My brother-in-law's name is Kerry, which sounds to me like a female name.  Of course, many of the names that can go either way have different spellings, depending on whether males or females have them.
Fritz

>>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU 06/10/02 12:47PM >>>
At 11:11 AM -0700 6/10/02, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
>  >>> adrian.pable at ENS.UNIBE.CH 05/27/02 03:28AM >>>
>I always find it difficult as a German speaker to tell whether
>certain English names are female or male, e.g. Laurie and Lyle
>
>Lyle is male and Laurie looks female to me.  However, I have dealt
>with people from other English-speaking countries named Laurie or
>Lawrie (UK and South Africa, respectively) who are males.  I believe
>in both cases, it's short for Lawrence.  But it still sounds very
>odd to me.

I grew up as Laurie (although to survive junior high school I
converted to Larry) and it was short for Laurence.  My mother
believed that Laurence --> Laurie while Lawrence --> Larry, but it
doesn't really work that way most of the time.  I was actually named
for the character Laurie in _Little Women_, whose full name was
Theodore Laurence.  Most of the male Lauries around anymore are from
commonwealth lands--Scotland, maybe England, Canada, and as you say
South Africa, as well as the antipodes, as in our (current?
erstwhile?) listmate, Laurie Bauer from New Zealand.

Larry, nT Laurie


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Jun 10 20:29:27 2002
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:29:27 -0400
Subject: perception of gender in names
In-Reply-To: <p0432040cb92ab13f8f0d@[130.132.231.219]>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.162927.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I always preferred Jo's name for Laurie--good ol' down-to-earth Teddy.  (No
offense, Larry!)

At 03:47 PM 6/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>At 11:11 AM -0700 6/10/02, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
>>  >>> adrian.pable at ENS.UNIBE.CH 05/27/02 03:28AM >>>
>>I always find it difficult as a German speaker to tell whether
>>certain English names are female or male, e.g. Laurie and Lyle
>>
>>Lyle is male and Laurie looks female to me.  However, I have dealt
>>with people from other English-speaking countries named Laurie or
>>Lawrie (UK and South Africa, respectively) who are males.  I believe
>>in both cases, it's short for Lawrence.  But it still sounds very
>>odd to me.
>
>I grew up as Laurie (although to survive junior high school I
>converted to Larry) and it was short for Laurence.  My mother
>believed that Laurence --> Laurie while Lawrence --> Larry, but it
>doesn't really work that way most of the time.  I was actually named
>for the character Laurie in _Little Women_, whose full name was
>Theodore Laurence.  Most of the male Lauries around anymore are from
>commonwealth lands--Scotland, maybe England, Canada, and as you say
>South Africa, as well as the antipodes, as in our (current?
>erstwhile?) listmate, Laurie Bauer from New Zealand.
>
>Larry, né Laurie


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 10 20:27:02 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:27:02 -0400
Subject: perception of gender in names
In-Reply-To: <sd04a354.059@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.162702.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:01 PM -0700 6/10/02, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
>Laurie Bauer is originally from the Uk, I believe. Laurie, are you out there?
>
>In the US, Robin can go either way, as can Toni, Jerry, Lynn, and a
>host of others. I have a female colleague whose name is Michael.  My
>brother-in-law's name is Kerry, which sounds to me like a female
>name.  Of course, many of the names that can go either way have
>different spellings, depending on whether males or females have them.
>Fritz

Sometimes the orthography is sex-specific even when the names
themselves (as pronounced) are epicene.  To be sure, there are names
like Lynn, Kerry, Robin, and even on occasion Michael (as well as
Chris, Lee, Tracy, Stacy, et al.) that can be and are used for both
males and females with the same spelling.  But generally in the US we
distinguish Tony for males vs. Toni for females, Jerry/Gerry for
males vs. Jeri/Ger(r)i for females, and so on.  Typically the -i
ending is unambiguously female (Teri or Terri) while the -y ending
may be male or may remain undeterdetermined for gender (Terry).  And
sometimes the female version may be -ie (Bobbie or Bobbi, female vs.
Bobby, male).

larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 11 01:29:07 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:29:07 EDT
Subject: Ballerina, Escabeche, Pochero, Arroz a la Valencia (1770)
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.212907.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A JOURNEY FROM LONDON TO GENOA, THROUGH ENGLAND, PORTUGAL, SPAIN AND FRANCE
by Joseph Baetti
The Third Edition
In Four Volumes
London: T. Davies
1770

   The items here are dated 1760.  I have not checked the dates of the first
two editions. OED cites this as 1770, and uses it for 17 citations and one
antedate (gutturality).  Amazing.
   "Escabeche" has one hit in OED, in an entry for "caveach" that has a
single 1822 citation. There are over 11,000 Google "escabeche" hits.  THE
OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD mentions that "caveach" is used in 17th- and
18th-century English cookery books, and it's a word "which could be either a
noun or a verb. ... Indeed escabeche can be found, in past centuries and now,
lurking under other names in various countries and contexts."  "Escabeyg" is
in a 14th-century Catalan treatise.  A Philippines recipe for "escabeche" is
given.
   This should be fixed immediately..Merriam-Webster has no "escabeche"
entry.


VOLUME ONE
Pg. 86:  ...I breakfast _Anglice_ upon tea and toast, or bread and butter...

Pg. 91:  ...on my arrival in _Portingal_ (as the sailors say) I am to pay the
captain twenty three thousand reis.

Pg. 215:  ...a pigeon-pye, a roasted turkey, and a Barbary-tongue, together
with half a dozen bottles of the best wine.

Pg. 227:  Being a meagre day we had an ample dish of salt-fish most favourily
dress'd after the manner of the country with garlick and _pimenta_, a large
sallad, and Dutch cheese with pears, apples, grapes, and figs, ten times more
than we could eat, good bread, and excellent wine.

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 30:  The _Trescone_ of the Tuscans, the _Furlana_ of the Venetians, the
_Corrente_ of the Monserrines, and the _Minuet_ or the _Amiable_ of the
French, are flat performances in comparison of that gallant one which I saw
executed before the balcony by that young man and a boy dressed in woman's
cloaths.  But dances cannot be described by words, nor can I convey to you
any idea of the _Fandango_, but by telling you that every limb was in such a
motion as might be called with propriety _a regular and harmonious convulsion
of the whole body_.

Pg. 34:  ...the female dancers of France go now to Italy, Germany, and
England to enamour _Signors_, _Minheers_, and _Mylords_.

Pg. 45:  Lisbon-hams are in high reputation, and it has long (Pg. 46--ed.)
been decided by connoisseurs in epicureism that they are still superiour to
those of _Bayona_ and _Westphalia_.

Pg. 47:  I must repeat it, that I have seen various dances from _Parenzo_ in
Istria to _Deily_ in England, (Pg. 48--ed.) but none of them is comparable to
what I saw here to-night. (...)
   Both the _Fandango_ and the _Seguedilla_ are danced either at the sound of
the guittar alone, or the guittar accompanied by the voice...

Pg. 51:  ...Fidalgoe's_ and _Cavallero's_ invited them to drink the health of
the _amables Baylarinas_ (_amiable she-dancers_) which they all did with the
noblest freedom and alacrity...
(OED has 1792 for "ballerina"--ed.)

Pg. 54:  ...the _Posada_ (the _Inn_)...

Pg. 58:  They were accordingly to fetch their _mantillas_; that is the _white
veils_ with which they cover their heads and the upper part of their bodies.

Pg. 85:  As I was loitering before that _Meson_ waiting for supper, a parcel
of poor little girls came to look at the _Estrangero_.
(See past posts for "Meson--ed.)

Pg. 144:  ...made my _Siesta_; that is, I slept an hour, because the weather
was insupportably hot.

Pg. 148:  They don't like much garlick, onions, _pimenton_ (Spanish pepper)
_garvanzos_ (chick-peas) or _abadejo_ (salt-fish), so that I accustomed
myself to eat _salte befe_ with them, and could _dranke der bere_, which is
_un bino hecho de agua_; "_a wine made with water_."

Pg. 148:  _Gavacho_ is an injurious appellation bestowed on the French by the
Spanish vulgar.  I know of no satisfactory etymology of this word.  The
Piedmontese call the Savoyards (and often the French) Gavass; and Gavass
means Derby-neck, or a man that has a Debry-neck.

Pg. 151:  We saw a _Quinta_; that is, a country-house...

Pg. 157:  ...you shall certainly have it _a manana_, "_to-morrow_."
(The revised OED has 1845 for "manana"--ed.)

Pg. 178:  ...Seguedillas_ or _Coplas_...
(Fandango, Seguedilla, and Copla are on many pages--ed.)

Pg. 200:  A rite used in this temple, which is called _Mozarob_ or
_Mozarabick_, originally instituted by a bishop of Seville called St.
Isidore...
(OED has 1788 for "Mozarab"--ed.)

Pg. 263:  At the estallages and posadas you will find in general no other
victuals, but a mess of _garavanzos_ and _judias_ (_dry chick-pease_ and
_French beans_) boiled in oil and water, with a strong dose of pepper, and a
dish of _bacallao_ and _sardinas_ (_stock-fish_ and _pilchards_) seasoned
likewise with pepper and oil.
("Gazpacho" is never used in this work, but it obviously was served--ed.)

Pg. 291:  ...drank a dish of coffee, and upon that a dram of _maraschino_...
(The revised OED has 1791-3 for "maraschino"--ed.)

Pg. 296:  A large Perigord-pasty un the middle, a couple of roasted Turkeys
on the sides of the pasty, with ham, fowls, game, sausages, sallads,
_caparrones_ (a kind of capers as big as filberts), _zebrero_ (a kind of
cheese from the kingdom of Galicia) &c. &c.

Pg. 298:  Several card-tables were placed in the room, and we played at
_Manillia_, a fashionable game here, not unlike _Quadrille_.

Pg. 299:
   A RECEIPT to dress ARROZ _a la Valencia_; that is RICE _after the manner
of Valencia_.
   Take pigs-feet, mutton-trotters, bacon, new sausages and
hogs-blood-puddings.  Boil all together so long, that the bones be easily
taken off.  Cut the whole into small pieces.  (Pg. 300--ed.)  Boil rice in
the broth made by these ingredients, throwing tow pinches of saffron in it
while boiling.  When the rice is half done, take it off the fire, strain it
lightly, put it into a stewing pan, throw the above things into it, reddening
the whole with the yolks of two or three eggs.  Leave then the pan to simmer
for about half an hour, not over, but under a brick charcoal fire.

Pg. 305:  A _Confradia_ in Spain, like a _Confraternita_ in Italy, is a union
of parishioners of the higher rank...

Pg. 315:  The _basquina_ is a black petticoat, commonly of silk...
(OED has 1819 for "basquine"--ed.)

VOLUME THREE
Pg. 35:  It admits of music, and is often sung throughout as well as the
_zarzuela_, which is a kind of _petite piece_ in _two acts_ or _two days_.
(OED has an incredibly late 1888 for "zarzuela," but admits that it began in
the 17th century--ed.)

Pg. 36:  The lowest of all their dramas are the _Entremes_ and the
_Mociganga_...

Pg. 106:  ...your proverb, that _Tutto il mundo e paese_, "_all countries are
alike_."

Pg. 126:  ...he plays at _Reversino_ (a game at cards so called)...

Pg. 190:  ...a _Manta_, or _mule covering_...
(The revised OED has 1828 for this "manta"--ed.)

Pg. 215:  The old wore _monteras_, or _woollen caps_...
(OED has 1838 for "montera"--ed.)

Pg. 228:  By good luck the man of the _venta_ had his _pochero_ ready; that
is, a mess of _garvanzos_ (_chick-peas_) baked to a pap in oil, and seasoned
with garlick, onions, and pepper, besides an ample dish of salt-fish also
fried in oil, as butter cannot be the produce of this gravelly soil.
(OED has 1845 for "puchero"--ed.)

Pg. 305:  *_Donzellas del campo_...country maiden, a rustick beauty.
(OED has 1833 for "donzella"--ed.)

Pg. 309:  ..._arrieros_(_mule-drivers_)...
(OED has 1826 for "arrieros"--ed.)

VOLUME FOUR
Pg. 36:  ...while the maids are boiling _Pochero_* and frying the _Abadejo_.
*_Pochero_ is a mess of chick-peas, and French-beans boiled in oil with
onions or garlick, and _Abadejo_ is stock-fish fried in oil.

Pg. 91:  I have nothing to add with regard to Barcelona, but that the
_locanda_, or inn, called _La Fonda_, is by much the best I have as yet been
in since I left London.
(OED has 1838 for "locanda."  OED has 1826 for "fonda"--ed.)

Pg. 124:  Let it be but dinner-time, and I care not a fig for the difference
between macaroni and roast-beef, herring and frogs, the olla and the
sourcraut: a very cosmopolite on the article of filling one's belly.

Pg. 141:  But _Nice_ is so ugly a town, and affords so small a number of
amusements, that nothing, I think, but the desire of preserving life, could
induce me to come and live here.
   We dined _a table ronde_ to-day...
(Not Nice!  The most cruel passage in the book...OED does not record "table
ronde," but he's dining this way several times in this book--ed.)

Pg. 148:  The _Fandango and the _Seguedilla_, which are their national
dances...

Pg. 150:  They have it proverbial, that _el Espanol no dice mentira_, "_the
Spaniard tells no lie_."
(Compare with Crete--ed.)

Pg. 155:
Son Monaco sopr' uno scoglio:
Non Semino, e non ricoglio:
Eppure mangiar voglio.
   In English, "I am Monaco seated on a rock.  Neither do I sow, nor gather
any thing; yet I will not starve."

Pg. 207:  They make bread with the flower of it (Turkey-corn--ed.), besides a
kind of hasty pudding, like the Italian _polenta_.

Pg. 234:  ...smoaking his _Cigarro_; that is, a little tobacco wrapped in a
paper, which serves him instead of a pipe.
(OED has "cigar" from 1735, then 1777...Maybe if I submit "cigar" and
"aficionado" I can be rejected by that magazine, too--ed.)

Pg. 243:  The Spaniards have a kind of musical dramas, which they call
_Zarzuelas burlescas_.  The music of an _Opera_ (Pg. 244-ed.) _Buffa_ is
perhaps more _learned_ (as Frenchmen term it) than that of a _Zarzuela
burlesca_.
(OED has 1801 for "Opera Buffa"--ed.)

Pg. 278:  ...the supper consisted in the usual mess of _dry beans_ boiled in
oil, the usual _bacallao_ stewed (Pg. 279--ed.) in oil, the usual _sardinas_
more salt than brine, the usual _oily omelet_, with only the addition of some
_escabeche_, that is, some river-fish pickled with vinegar, sugar, and
garlick, together with some _walnuts_ and _dry grapes_ by way of desert.

Pg. 296:  ..._escabeche_...


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 11 02:06:41 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:06:41 EDT
Subject: Bat Mitzvah (1921, 1949); Kosher (1620); Mellah
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.220641.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/10/2002 2:08:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

> BAT MITZVAH
>
>     OED has 1950.  Perhaps the online New York Times has something.
>     A Google search shows that the first Bat Mitzvah was of Judith Kaplan,
>  daughter of Reconstructionist leader Mordechai Kaplan, in 1921.  Judith
>  Kaplan Eisenstein died in 1995.

Back in 1998 I chased down Judith Kaplan's bat mitzvah.  While she has been
cited in numerous books, not to mention Web sites, I was unable to determine
the date of her bat mitzvah.  Most written sources I have seen give 1922, as
do the majority of the Web sites I found on a Google search.  I have even
found two specific dates for the event, one in March 1922 and one in May
1922.

While her status as the first-ever bat mitzvah (then more likely called "bas
mitzvah") seems unassailable, a search through the local college library was
unable to turn up any contemporary written reference to it.  The earliest
citation I could find was

_The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia_ (1969 Ktav Publishing House reprint),
article "Bar Mitzvah" volume 2 page 75.  This volume carries a 1940 copyright
date.

A possible 1933 citation is referenced in Joseph L. Blau _Modern Varieties of
Judaism_ New York: Columbia University Press, 1966, pp 114-116, which cites a
1933 survey (see footnote 39 on page 199) reporting on synagogues then
conducting "bat mitzvah" ceremonies.

(Note to Jesse: I am woefully behind on submitting my Judaica antedatings to
the OED, so you'll have to enter this one.  Someday I'll catch up.)

It is entirely possible that "bat mitzvah" antedates Judith Kaplan.  Perhaps
there exists a responsa written, in English, well before 1921-22 reading"Of
course there is no equivalent 'bas mitzvah' ceremony for girls because..."

By the way, Rabbi Kaplan did not become the "leader" of Reconstructionism
until the late 1930's.  In 1921-22 he was pulpit rabbi in a Conservative
congregation and Professor of Homilectics at the Jewish Theological Seminary.


>  KOSHER
>
>     Merriam Webster says that "kosher" is a "Yiddish" term.  "Kosher" is
dated
>  to 1851.  "Yiddish" is dated to 1886.  Maybe it just took a long while to
>  name the language?

This may surprise you, but until the 1880's the English-speaking world had
next to no knowledge of the existence of the Yiddish language.

Until 1848 the bulk of the Jews in the United States were Sephardim, whose
customary language was Ladino (also called "Judeo-Spanish").  Following the
Revolutions of 1848, there was an emigration of German-speaking Jews to the
US and other English-speaking countries.  These Jews were from Germany (not
yet then a country), Austria, or other German-speaking regions, and spoke
German, not Yiddish.

Yiddish-speakers did not show up in the US in large numbers until a wave of
pogroms starting in 1881-1882 created a mass emigration of Eastern European
Jews.  These people were largely from Slavic- or Hungarian-speaking areas in
which German was rare and in which the Jews spoke Yiddish as their daily
language.

The Jews already in the US, particularly the German-speaking ones, looked
down on these newcomers.  In particular many of them sneered at Yiddish as a
language fit only for country bumpkins, and did not even refer to the
language as "Yiddish" but rather called it by the derogatory name of "Jargon".

Hence it is not surprising that the OED2 has its first citation for "Yiddish"
as late as 1875 and its second citation from 1886.

Yes, I am pretty sure the OED2 is correct in identifying "kosher" as a Hebrew
rather than a Yiddish word.  However, they fail to note that in Hebrew
"kosher" is strictlly an adjective, with the verb being "kasher" and the noun
"kashrut" (Ashkenasic "kashrus").

     - Jim Landau

"How do Reconstructionists spell the name of the Deity?   Pr-cess."  (Rachel
Braun)


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Jun 11 02:15:28 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:15:28 -0700
Subject: Turkish Beigel (Bella Chagall, 1940s); 1897 NYT "Big Apple"
In-Reply-To: <6B359C71.74548C07.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.191528.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Re: Turkish beigel

Maybe she is refering to a simit (acc. to Yeni Redhouse dict.) "roll of
bread in the shape of a ring. 2. a life buoy. 3. naut. a grommet (of
ropes). 4. anything in the shape of a ring. 5. school slang = zero.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Sun, 9 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> TURKISH BEIGEL
>
> BURNING LIGHTS
> by Bella Chagall
> translated by Norbert Guterman
> Schocken Books, New York
> 1946
>
>    Bella Chagall was married to the artist Marc Chagall.  She was born in Vitebsk, Russia, in 1895, and she died in Cranberry Lake, NY, in 1944.  She wrote in Yiddish.
>
> Pg. 52:  "Ah, you're an uncouth fellow, Israel!  Better help me to pull out
my sleeve, the lining has suddenly got twisted up like a Turkish beigel."
> (TURKISH bagel?--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 11 02:16:34 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:16:34 EDT
Subject: 1897 "Big Apple" examined
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.221634.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

1897 _N.Y. Times_ 10 Oct. SM10  An entertaining little book entitled "Some
Facts About the New York Market," has been issued by the Merchants'
Association, and it is exciting considerable comment in other cities.  Its
unique feature is the illustration by means of graded pictures, of the
relative size of New York's industries, and the industries of six or eight
of the large cities of this country. ... In the fruit and nut trade New
York takes precedence with a big apple, while the second city has only a
cherry.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------

   I checked it out today.
   The Merchants Association of New York, SOME FACTS ABOUT THE NEW YORK
MARKET, FALL TRADE EXCURSION 1897, is in the NYPL's Science, Industry and
Business Library.
   On page 16, under a section titled "Fruits and Nuts":

(Big Apple drawing--ed.)                   (Small Apple drawing--ed.)
NEW YORK $11,940,000                NEXT IN RANK $4,102,000

   The second drawing is a small _apple_--not a cherry.
   The promotional book demonstrates how big the New York market is.  For
example, "Coffee and Spices" shows a big coffee cup and a small coffee cup.
"Tobacco" shows a big pipe and a small pipe.  "Men's Furnishing Goods" shows
a big tie and a small tie.  "Shirts" shows a big shirt and a small shirt.
And so on throughout this entire book.
   "Big Apple" is not written.  The "apple" is one of many illustrations.  I
cannot see how this has anything at all to do with the slang phrase/nickname
"Big Apple," other than, perhaps, a coincidence.

OFF TOPIC:  I might as well introduce a new feature here, THE IF/WHEN
SCOREBOARD!

THE IF/WHEN SCOREBOARD
Guess which of these events comes first (if ever).  List the correct order
and win fabulous prizes!

A.  The New York Times does an article on "the Big Apple," the nickname of
its city.

B.  Armageddon.

C.  The New Jersey Nets win the NBA Championship.

D.  David Shulman appears Dean Olsher's show on NPR.

E.  Hell freezes over.

F.  I receive my $250 computer rebate from Dell.

Enter now, and good luck!
   ( Dell employees, NPR employees, NY Times employees,  NBA employees, Old
Man Winter, and the Devil are not eligible.  For other rules and
restrictions, go to www.dell.com/rebate, or call 1-800-ASK-DELL, or just
strangle that stupid DELL kid.)


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 11 02:28:16 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:28:16 EDT
Subject: Ballerina, Escabeche, Pochero, Arroz a la Valencia (1770)
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.222816.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/10/2002 9:29:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

> Pg. 51:  ...Fidalgoe's_ and _Cavallero's_ invited them to drink the health
of
>  the _amables Baylarinas_ (_amiable she-dancers_) which they all did with
the
>  noblest freedom and alacrity...
>  (OED has 1792 for "ballerina"--ed.)

Is this Spanish or Portuguese?  "Fidalgoe" is obviously a variation of
Spanish "hidalgo", a contraction of "hijo de algo" (literally "son of
someone").  "ballerina" is from Italian "ballare", "to dance".  "Baylarina"
certainly appears to be from the corresponding Spanish word, which nowadays
is spelt "bailar".  Similar words, but from different languages, and
therefore different etymologies.


>  Pg. 85:  As I was loitering before that _Meson_ waiting for supper, a
parcel
>  of poor little girls came to look at the _Estrangero_.
>  (See past posts for "Meson--ed.)

"Meson" is not Castilian Spanish, which would be "casa".  It is close to
French "maison".  But "Estrangero" is phonetically what you would expect in
Castilian, whereas the French equivalent is "etrangere" (acute accent on
first "e").


>  Pg. 200:  A rite used in this temple, which is called _Mozarob_ or
>  _Mozarabick_, originally instituted by a bishop of Seville called St.
>  Isidore...
>  (OED has 1788 for "Mozarab"--ed.)

Even as late as 1770 I find it difficult for a Bishop of Seville instituting
a "Mozarab" rite.  And for that matter, where in Catholic Spain could you
find a "temple"?


>  Pg. 263:  At the estallages and posadas you will find in general no other
>  victuals, but a mess of _garavanzos_ and _judias_ (_dry chick-pease_ and
>  _French beans_) boiled in oil and water, with a strong dose of pepper, and
a
>  dish of _bacallao_ and _sardinas_ (_stock-fish_ and _pilchards_) seasoned
>  likewise with pepper and oil.

"judia" (there is an accent on the "i") must have an interesting etymology,
since it means both "Jewess" and "string bean".

      - Jim Landau


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 11 02:29:36 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:29:36 -0400
Subject: Bat Mitzvah (1921, 1949); Kosher (1620); Mellah
In-Reply-To: <95.1dc5da9c.2a36b531@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.222936.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> In a message dated 06/10/2002 2:08:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:
>
> > BAT MITZVAH
> >
> >     OED has 1950.  Perhaps the online New York Times has something.

This appears to be the earliest in the Times, with the spelling "bas
mitzvah":

1938 _N.Y. Times_ 22 May 45  Mr. and Mrs. George N. Janis announce the bas
mitzvah of their daughter, Ruth, Saturday, May 28, 1938.


Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 11 02:35:39 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:35:39 EDT
Subject: Ballerina, Escabeche, Pochero, Arroz a la Valencia (1770)
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.223539.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/10/2002 9:29:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

>
>  Pg. 234:  ...smoaking his _Cigarro_; that is, a little tobacco wrapped in a
>  paper, which serves him instead of a pipe.

A cigar is wrapped in tobacco leaf.  The description appears to be of a
cigarette, which is tobacco wrapped in paper.  According to one story, the
cigarette was invented by a soldier whose pipe was shot off, so he emptied a
cartridge of its ball and powder and stuffed it with tobacco instead.  (By
1770 European armies had been using paper cartridges for many years.)

     - Jim Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 11 05:12:21 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 01:12:21 EDT
Subject: Hula, Mai Tai (1798); Baretti (1719-1789)
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.011221.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GIUSEPPE M. A. BARETTI (1719-1789)

   The book listed him as "Joseph" Baretti...Yes, that 1760 or 1770 "cigarro"
is probably a cigarette, not a cigar.  OED has "cigarette" from 1842?
   Fortunately, Baretti wrote other important books, so we need not guess
about "cigarro" or "ballerina" or "fandango" or  "pochero" or "escabeche."  A
check of his name shows that he wrote dictionaries of Italian and Spanish.
   I've got to do some parking tickets tomorrow (my only use to New York City
or the world), but I'll look at them in a few days.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
HULA, MAI TAI

A VOYAGE OF DISCOVERY TO THE NORTH PACIFIC OCEAN AND ROUND THE WORLD
1791-1795
by George Vancouver
in four volumes
edited by W. Kaye Lamb
London: The Hakluyt Society
1984

   This was originally published in 1798.  OED uses it for one
citation--that's right, ONE!  The first citation of "aloha."
    Vancouver is the guy they named a town after. (If you guessed Seattle,
you're close. OK, who's buried in Grant's tomb?)
    Along on this voyage was a botanist named Archibald Menzies.  Charles F.
Newcombe seems to have edited MENZIES' JOURNAL OF VANCOUVER'S VOYAGE (1923),
but I'll first look at the NYPL's copy of THE ALASKA TRAVEL JOURNAL OF
ARCHIBALD MENZIES, 1793-1794 (Fairbanks: University of Alaska Press, 1993).
   Under "strawberry," OED cites "1792 A. Menzies."  It appears to be the
only Menzies citation in OED.  One citation!  Again, this is just amazing.
   The editor here cites Menzies often, and it's probably the much richer
book, certainly for botany.  Vancouver mostly gives us second citations,
after Captain Cook.  However, the four long volumes were worth the read.  The
numbers are consecutive up to the final page 1750, so the volume number
probably is irrelevant.


VOLUME ONE
Pg. 352 (Oct. 1791):  Some of the few fish we caught were very excellent,
particularly of the larger sort; one much resembling the snook,* and another
the calipevar of Jamaica.**
*Presumably the snook barracuda.
**Calipeva; the West Indian mullet.

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 455 (March 1792):  These several portions of land were planted with the
eddo or _taro_ root...
("Taro" is in several places here.  Unfortunately, I did not see "poi," but
Menzies probably has that--ed.)

Pg. 482 (April 1792):  On Sunday the 8th, the weather being perfectly calm,
Mr. Menzieswas so fortunate as to determine this point, by killing a brown
albatross; of the same sort, I believe, as are found in abundance about
Tierra del Fuego, distinguished vulgarly by the name of Mother Cary's geese,
on account of the white rump, shape of the tail, &c. which resemble the
storm-petrel, commonly called Mother Cary's chicken.*
*Mother Carey's chickens and Mother Carey's geese were the sailors' names for
the stormy petrel and the giant petrel.  Menzies gives a description of the
bird he shot from which Newcombe concludes that it was a black-footed
albatross.  _Menzies' Journal of Vancouver's Voyage_, p. 3n.

VOLUME THREE
Pg. 822 (February 1793):  After a short respite he recovered a little, and
looking up to the most active of the party, said "_mytie, mytie_,"*
signifying "good;" the man, instantly replied "_arrowhah_,"** meaning, that
he pitied him, and instantly saluted him, by touching noses, gave him some
cloth, and assisted him to wipe and bind up his wounds.
*maikai, maikai.
**aloha.
(OED has the "aloha" but not the "mai tai."  The "aloha" is dated 1798 with
the book, but the journal entry is five years' earlier--ed.)

Pg. 834:  The warriers who were armed with the _pallaloos_, now advanced with
a considerable degree of order...
*Pololu, a long war spear.
(Not in OED--ed.)

Pg. 840 (March 1793):  ...this was held in great estimation, especially when
two or three sorts were sewn together to form that part of their dress called
the _maro_, about three yards long, and six inches broad.
(The revised OED has "maro" from 1669, 1722, and then 1833.  This citation
would come in the 110-year gap.  The revised entry is useful, for it shows me
that no one was reading Vancouver/Menzies--ed.)

Pg. 843 (March 1793):  ...I agreed with him in this opinion, but the words
"_Taboo_ King George" were sufficient to prevent a syllable more being urged
on that subject.
("Taboo" is all over this work and would be important cites after Cook--ed.)

Pg. 1009 (August 1793):  They were all small, of one sort, and were called by
us _hunched-backed_ salmon...
(OED has "gorbusch" from 1792, and "haddo" with no cites at all??--ed.)

Pg. 1171 (February 1794):  The time devoted to the decoration of the
actresses extended beyond the limits of the quiet patience of the audience,
who exclaimed two or three times, from all quarters, "_Hoorah, hoorah,
poaliealee_,"* signifying, that it would be dark and black night before the
performance would begin.
*Hula hula pouliuli.

Pg. 1173 (February 1794):  The language of the song, no doubt, corresponded
with the obscenity of their actions; which were carried to a degree of
extravagence that was calculated to produce nothing but disgust even in the
most licentious.
   This _hooarah_ occupied about an hour, and concluded with the descending
sun, it being contrary to law that such representations should continue after
that time of day.
(OED has 1825 for "hula," also given as "hura"--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Jun 11 07:59:37 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 03:59:37 -0400
Subject: Blue cent
In-Reply-To: <3D05068C.2970.4E92EA@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.035937.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>My dictionaries of slang have nothing to say about "blue cent",
>meaning an insignificant amount. Can anyone help with an origin
>and/or likely age?

I've never heard it myself AFAIK.

Here is an example attributed to Woody Guthrie, not explicitly dated but
supposedly pre-1979, from the Web:

<<But I still am glad I did fall heir to my chorea because it makes me stay
dizzy and drunk all the time without paying my bartender one little blue
cent.>>

"Blue cent" is found on the Internet several times, clearly equivalent to
the [far] more frequent and usual "red cent". Of course "red cent" means
"copper [or bronze] cent" [the standard US one-cent coin], and the "red" is
probably a simple intensifier, adding no information, probably analogous to
"thin" in "thin dime" ... although there were (long ago) "white cents",
one-cent coins made of white metal ('steel' one-cent coins issued during WW
II were not usually called "white" AFAIK).

I think a somewhat arbitrary adjective can serve as an intensifier in these
casual expressions, like "I didn't get a single solitary tiny little
f*cking red cent" or "he can kiss my big fat happy [choose skin colour]
arse". However, in some cases the adjective has some sense, as in "[I
didn't get a] plugged nickel" or "... bent farthing".

Conjectures:

(1) "Blue" referring to a copper cent which has been exposed to the
elements, or to acid, and which has turned blue/green: thus less
desirable/attractive than a shiny new cent. This possibility is supported
by the existence of "green cent" occasionally in the same sense (a few
Internet examples). This seems likely in US contexts from a few decades back.

(2) "Blue" = "counterfeit". This sense of "blue" (in "blue bit") is given
by Lighter (RHHDAS). [I suppose the original sense was "blue" = "(oxidized)
copper" as in (1) versus "red" = "gold".] This is pre-1800, though, so I
doubt its relevance.

(3) "Blue" euphemistic for "bloody". Partridge gives this with example "I
haven't a blue bean" = "I'm broke" from ca. 1910, supposedly obsolete by
1975 if I'm reading it right. This strikes me as a possibility, although
perhaps not natural for US uses. [I see a few South African examples of
"blue cent" on the Web.]

(4) Doubly-nonsense intensifier chosen simply as a color in opposition to
red: as in "I don't have a red cent; in fact, I don't even have a blue
cent; in fact, I don't have a cent of any sort!" The existence of "green
cent" occasionally in the same sense could support this possibility as well
as (1).

[NB: In Internet search, one will encounter -- in a certain role-playing
game -- a fantasy figure, apparently a type of orc, called a "cent": this
appears to be an abbreviation of "centurion", and they come in various
colors, blue, red, yellow, etc. I strongly doubt any relevance to the
current question.]

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 11 08:19:44 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 04:19:44 EDT
Subject: Asser Levy (-1681), NYC's first kosher butcher
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.041944.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ASSER LEVY (-1681), FIRST KOSHER BUTCHER

   Again, I haven't seen the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD's entry on
"kosher."  I could be duplicating what's already there--which I suppose is
good.
   Various web sites list New York's (New Amsterdam's) Asser Levy as
America's first kosher butcher.  He opened up shop November 15, 1660, or
October 15, 1660, or in 1655 (these web sites vary).
   What evidence is there of this, when our first record for the word
"kosher" is 200 years later?
   Hot dog, I've got to solve this.  My etymology serves a higher authority.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BAT MITZVAH

   I'll look in the publications:

AMERICAN HEBREW
B'NAI B'RITH MAGAZINE
THE YOUNG JUDAEAN
NEWS LETTER (National Council of Jewish Women, 1933-1939)
COUNCIL WOMAN (1940-1978)
DER IDISHER FROYEN ZSHURNAL (Jewish Women's Home Journal, 1922-1923)

   Bat Mitzvah and bagels is all I ask.  Plus latkes and rugelach.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 11 12:44:12 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:44:12 -0400
Subject: Hula, Mai Tai (1798); Baretti (1719-1789)
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.084412.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Tue, 11 Jun 2002  2:30:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

>    Vancouver is the guy they named a town after. (If you guessed Seattle,
>you're close. OK, who's buried in Grant's tomb?)

Vancouver is the guy they named an ISLAND after.  When the Canadian Pacific Railroad selected their Pacific terminus, they needed a name for it, so they arbitrarily stole the name of the island as being the most recognizable name in the area.  This is why the city of Vancouver is NOT on Vancouver Island.

Seattle was an Indian chief in the Puget Sound area.

The man buried in Grant's Tomb is named Hiram, and by now he must be getting awfully Tyred of that joke.


>   This _hooarah_ occupied about an hour, and concluded with the descending
>sun, it being contrary to law that such representations should continue after
>that time of day.

An early citation for "the last hurrah"?

    - Jim Landau


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Tue Jun 11 12:47:33 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:47:33 +0100
Subject: Serrancified
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.134733.0100.>

A subscriber has written as follows to ask about a puzzling bit of
American dialect usage. Can anyone help?

> It's from Virginia-North Carolina, an older generation, (maybe a
> hundred years back) and probably from the Appalachians. Three
> different older friends remember their grandmothers' using it.  It
> means "I'm full", "I've had plenty to eat".  Phonetically: "My
> sufficiency is serrancified". Could be "cerr", or one "r", or
> perhaps never printed! All four of us are curious about its
> origins.


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Tue Jun 11 13:20:12 2002
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:20:12 -0400
Subject: Serrancified
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.092012.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My grandmother-in-law (born and raised in Southern Ontario) often says "my
sufficiency is suffonsified." I thought perhaps she was just mis-remembering
"serrancified" (or whatever), but I found some similar variations:

suffonsified:
http://alongpoetryroad.com/2sides2acoin.html

suffancified:
http://books.dreambook.com/rootslady/outhouse.html

suffulsified:
http://www.citadel.edu/library/knob_m.htm

Here's something from the December 14, 1997 edition of the Chattanooga Free
Press:

A couple of weeks ago, someone commented on the impolite refusal of more
food, "I'm stuffed." Two readers were instructed as to alternative
responses. Say "No, thank you. I've had a plentiful sufficiency; any more
would be a super-abundancy." (The second contains a word we cannot find, but
may have been a made-up family word.) "My sufficiency is ?surrensified?;
anything more would be obnoxious to my fastidious taste."

None of this helps with the origins, but at least you know the phrase has
had a reasonably good career.

Paul

> A subscriber has written as follows to ask about a puzzling bit of
> American dialect usage. Can anyone help?
>
> > It's from Virginia-North Carolina, an older generation, (maybe a
> > hundred years back) and probably from the Appalachians. Three
> > different older friends remember their grandmothers' using it.  It
> > means "I'm full", "I've had plenty to eat".  Phonetically: "My
> > sufficiency is serrancified". Could be "cerr", or one "r", or
> > perhaps never printed! All four of us are curious about its
> > origins.


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Tue Jun 11 13:36:37 2002
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:36:37 -0400
Subject: Erin McKean has Pepto-Bismol walls
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.093637.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is a fine profile of Erin McKean in today's Chicago Tribune:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi-0206110016jun11.story

Free (and for the most part fakeable) registration is required.

Paul


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 11 13:43:01 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:43:01 -0400
Subject: Erin McKean has Pepto-Bismol walls
In-Reply-To: <03e001c2114d$050346d0$8321d0d8@logophilia.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.094301.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Jun 11, 2002 at 09:36:37AM -0400, Paul McFedries wrote:
> There is a fine profile of Erin McKean in today's Chicago Tribune:

Congrats on the wonderful profile, Erin!

Jesse


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Jun 11 15:41:54 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:41:54 -0400
Subject: Serrancified
In-Reply-To: <3D05FF75.24840.119ADDF@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.114154.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > It's from Virginia-North Carolina, an older generation, (maybe a
> > hundred years back) and probably from the Appalachians. Three
> > different older friends remember their grandmothers' using it.  It
> > means "I'm full", "I've had plenty to eat".  Phonetically: "My
> > sufficiency is serrancified". Could be "cerr", or one "r", or
> > perhaps never printed! All four of us are curious about its
> > origins.

My brief Internet search gives the following alternatives in this context:

----------

suffonsified
suffancified
sophonsified
suffulsified
suffunctified

surrencified
surrensified
cironchified
suroncified

satisfied

fanciful

----------

I cannot find any etymology. My unsupported speculation is that "My
sufficiency is ..." is originally a jocular
"hoity-toity"/"mock-aristocratic" overcorrection for "crude" or
"unladylike" expressions such as "I'm stuffed". The singer Gordon Lightfoot
(from Ontario) is quoted as saying one of these "sufficiency" things on stage.

I've heard myself the short form "I've had a sufficiency", also "I've had
an elegant sufficiency", which I think is parallel to the above.

On the Web:

"Have you had an elegant sufficiency?"
"Any more would be a reluctant redundancy!"

My mother was also Welsh and usually said "I've had an elegant
sufficiency," and my father, a Scot, who fancied himself a wag, would
inevitably reply, "And I have an elephant's capacity."

[description of Irish parents] They both enjoy a drink, though my mother
will curb any enthusiasm for same with expressions like 'You have had an
elegant sufficiency' or 'Tá sé thar am.'

[a Japanese exchange student in Australia] For example, it's politer to say
"I've had an elegant sufficiency" than "I've had enough." My host mother
taught me this beautiful phrase. [Hmmm]

-- Doug Wilson


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Jun 11 16:06:18 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:06:18 -0700
Subject: Hula, Mai Tai (1798); Baretti (1719-1789)
In-Reply-To: <4A9F7EA4.76A7ADBE.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.090618.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:
>
> Vancouver is the guy they named an ISLAND after.  When the Canadian Pacific
>Railroad selected their Pacific terminus, they needed a name for it, so
>they
>arbitrarily stole the name of the island as being the most recognizable
>name
>in the area. This is why the city of Vancouver is NOT on Vancouver
Island.


Also Fort Vancouver and the city of Vancouver, Washington.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Jun 11 16:11:20 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:11:20 -0700
Subject: Bat Mitzvah (1921, 1949); Kosher (1620); Mellah
In-Reply-To: <95.1dc5da9c.2a36b531@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.091120.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:
>
> Yes, I am pretty sure the OED2 is correct in identifying "kosher" as a Hebrew
> rather than a Yiddish word.  However, they fail to note that in Hebrew
> "kosher" is strictlly an adjective, with the verb being "kasher" and the noun
> "kashrut" (Ashkenasic "kashrus").


I agree. Definitely a Hebrew word. kaf (qomets)-shin (tsere)-resh (qomets
and tsere are the vowels) so Ashkenazic pronunciation = kosher.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Jun 11 16:38:54 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:38:54 -0700
Subject: Hula, Mai Tai (1798); Baretti (1719-1789)
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.093854.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Also Fort Vancouver and the city of Vancouver, Washington.

Which were named before the Canadian venues.  So, every couple yeras when the suggestion comes up that Vancouver Wash change its name to avoid confusion with the Canadian sites, the Wash-ers say they had the name first and it's the Canadians who should change.
Fritz
allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 11 17:46:55 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:46:55 -0700
Subject: Soda pop
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.104655.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Can anyone suggest a term for clear sodas/pops (like
7-up or sprite) that would the most generally
accepted/understood?

I am writing a brochure that could be going out
accross the country. One of the topics in it is tips
for fighting nausea, and we currently suggest drinking
a "clear soda", but aren't sure if that is an east
coast bias. Any suggestions appreciated.

Thanks,

Ed

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Jun 11 17:52:16 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:52:16 +0100
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <20020611174655.44889.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.185216.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:46 am -0700 Ed Keer <edkeer at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> Can anyone suggest a term for clear sodas/pops (like
> 7-up or sprite) that would the most generally
> accepted/understood?
>
> I am writing a brochure that could be going out
> accross the country. One of the topics in it is tips
> for fighting nausea, and we currently suggest drinking
> a "clear soda", but aren't sure if that is an east
> coast bias. Any suggestions appreciated.

Yes, I think that in many places "clear soda" would be interpreted as club
soda or the like (only).  If you want it to include club soda, then "a
clear carbonated drink" should work.  If you don't want to include club
soda, then I'd either just add "like Sprite or 7-UP" at the end or "a
lemon-lime flavored carbonated drink".

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Tue Jun 11 17:52:23 2002
From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:52:23 -0400
Subject: Soda pop
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.135223.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

how about 'carbonated lemon-lime soft drink'?  In my mind that covers
you w/o worrying about implied endorsements or cross-regional
incomprehensibility.

Though I have always known gingerale to be the curative.  Would club
soda also work?  If so, please disregard the lemon-limey part...


Ed Keer wrote:
>
> Can anyone suggest a term for clear sodas/pops (like
> 7-up or sprite) that would the most generally
> accepted/understood?
>
> I am writing a brochure that could be going out
> accross the country. One of the topics in it is tips
> for fighting nausea, and we currently suggest drinking
> a "clear soda", but aren't sure if that is an east
> coast bias. Any suggestions appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 11 18:01:27 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:01:27 -0400
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <20020611174655.44889.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.140127.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It sure is regional. For me, "soda" is "seltzer" or "soda water," so
the "clear" is redundant. I know that's not what you wanted to hear
since your after a general "full" term, but I don't think you'll find
one with no regional differentiation.) Even if "clear" is good (and I
think it is), where I grew up, it would have to be "clear soft drink."

dInIs






>Can anyone suggest a term for clear sodas/pops (like
>7-up or sprite) that would the most generally
>accepted/understood?
>
>I am writing a brochure that could be going out
>accross the country. One of the topics in it is tips
>for fighting nausea, and we currently suggest drinking
>a "clear soda", but aren't sure if that is an east
>coast bias. Any suggestions appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ed
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 11 18:00:25 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:00:25 -0700
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <3D0638D7.989FBECA@cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.110025.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks for the suggestion. It may be a bit long, I can
work with it.


> Though I have always known gingerale to be the
> curative.  Would club
> soda also work?  If so, please disregard the
> lemon-limey part...
>

Yes, we mention gingerale separately. FWIW My mom
always used flat coke...


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun 11 18:06:20 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:06:20 -0400
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <20020611174655.44889.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.140620.0400.>

"Clear soda" is decidedly regional and should not be used for national
understanding.

I think "clear, carbonated soft drink" is what you need.

I might add that an old cure for nausea that I was taught was Coke, at room
temperature.  People (used to?) take cola syrup and rhubarb extract for
nausea, which was a pharmaceutical preparation.

Frank Abate


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Tue Jun 11 19:04:46 2002
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:04:46 -0400
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <20020611174655.44889.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.150446.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the west, 'soda water', or just plain 'soda', is what you'd call
'seltzer' in the east. 7-Up is a type of 'pop.' "Clear soda" would cause
confusion, and then be taken to mean "plain soda" or just "soda" = seltzer.
I would suggest "lemon-lime flavored carbonated drink". It's long, but not
confusing.

At 10:46 AM 6/11/02 -0700, Ed Keer wrote:
>Can anyone suggest a term for clear sodas/pops (like
>7-up or sprite) that would the most generally
>accepted/understood?
>
>I am writing a brochure that could be going out
>accross the country. One of the topics in it is tips
>for fighting nausea, and we currently suggest drinking
>a "clear soda", but aren't sure if that is an east
>coast bias. Any suggestions appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ed
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Tue Jun 11 19:14:59 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:14:59 -0400
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <NFBBKBPMKLKNJGANHOEAAEAHDAAA.abatefr@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.151459.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My mother (in Atlanta) gave us kids Coca Cola syrup for nausea.

--Charles Wells

>I might add that an old cure for nausea that I was taught was Coke, at room
>temperature.  People (used to?) take cola syrup and rhubarb extract for
>nausea, which was a pharmaceutical preparation.
>
>Frank Abate



Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 11 19:50:28 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:50:28 -0400
Subject: Read with pleasure:  thanks for the wonderful new book
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.155028.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm sure every ADS member on the list (and that's all of us, right?)
will share my enthusiasm over the Allen Walker Read compendium that
just came in the mail (ADS Pub. #26, _Milestones in the History of
English in America_).  It contains, inter (many) alia, AWR's
groundbreaking expose of OK (the real story and the folklore) and
his...er, muckraking analysis of the F-word, along with
autobiographical sketches, letters from Tom Paikeday and others,
various papers on British and (or vs.) U.S. English, and the
impressive bibliography of AWR's publications.  Kudos to all
involved, including Ron Butters (for the ADS connection), Richard
Bailey (editor), Frank Abate (indexer), and my former undergraduate
student Anne Curzan for their individual and collective help in
bringing this to us, and of course most of all to the nonpareil Allen
Walker Read himself.

Larry


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Tue Jun 11 22:00:23 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:00:23 -0400
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <20020611174655.44889.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.180023.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

clear carbonated beverage

or

clear carbonated soft drink.

Although, soda water is what I grew up with.

rhk


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Tue Jun 11 22:11:35 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:11:35 -0400
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <3D0638D7.989FBECA@cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.181135.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

><))));>Though I have always known gingerale to be the curative.

If only it had any real ginger in it anymore.  Nowadays,  the ginger in
ginger ale is a mere artificial flavor.  On other e-mail lists I belong to
where we discuss open water sailboat cruising & the liveaboard lifestyle,
as far as the natural preventatives are concerned,  real candied ginger is
the thing, followed by homemade ginger snaps.  Also, available in sailing
shops, is ginger ale made with real ginger.  Of course, preventative is the
operative word here.

BTW, in an article I read some time back on the making of the movie Apollo
13, where much of the film was shot inside NASAs zero gravity simulator, an
airplane aptly nicknamed the vomit comet, it was intimated that NASA
astronauts swear by cherry-flavored Lifesavers as a preventative.

rhk


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 11 22:34:18 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:34:18 -0400
Subject: Read with pleasure:  thanks for the wonderful new book
In-Reply-To: <p04320405b92c01afd9bf@[130.132.231.227]>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.183418.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If I may add Presidential kudos, Larry couldn't have said it no
better. I still remember the scholarly but so entertaining ADS
address when Allen revealed his internal deliberations over whether,
as a fledging scholar in Britain, he should respond with the locally
ubiquitous "heah" or his native "here" in answering the roll-call. I
am quite sure what he did, but, to his credit, he left us hanging. In
contrast, his scholarship left us hanging only when he could not
produce the impeccably arrayed evidence and careful argument which
characterized every part of his work. This is, indeed, an ADS
treasure.

dInIs



>I'm sure every ADS member on the list (and that's all of us, right?)
>will share my enthusiasm over the Allen Walker Read compendium that
>just came in the mail (ADS Pub. #26, _Milestones in the History of
>English in America_).  It contains, inter (many) alia, AWR's
>groundbreaking expose of OK (the real story and the folklore) and
>his...er, muckraking analysis of the F-word, along with
>autobiographical sketches, letters from Tom Paikeday and others,
>various papers on British and (or vs.) U.S. English, and the
>impressive bibliography of AWR's publications.  Kudos to all
>involved, including Ron Butters (for the ADS connection), Richard
>Bailey (editor), Frank Abate (indexer), and my former undergraduate
>student Anne Curzan for their individual and collective help in
>bringing this to us, and of course most of all to the nonpareil Allen
>Walker Read himself.
>
>Larry

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 11 23:29:54 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:29:54 -0400
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <NJEFLDNDEIDMAKCHIMJGIEFNCFAA.rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.192954.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:11 PM -0400 6/11/02, Rick Kennerly wrote:
>  ><))));>Though I have always known gingerale to be the curative.
>
>If only it had any real ginger in it anymore.  Nowadays,  the ginger in
>ginger ale is a mere artificial flavor.  On other e-mail lists I belong to
>where we discuss open water sailboat cruising & the liveaboard lifestyle,
>as far as the natural preventatives are concerned,  real candied ginger is
>the thing, followed by homemade ginger snaps.  Also, available in sailing
>shops, is ginger ale made with real ginger.  Of course, preventative is the
>operative word here.
>
Have you checked out Goya's (or other Caribbean-style) ginger BEER?
It tastes quite gingery to me, infinitely more so than so-called
ginger ale, and quite tasty (as soft drinks go).  The nomenclature is
puzzling, though.  It's clear that no formula along the lines of

ginger beer : beer :: ginger ale : ale

can be plausibly defended.

larry


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Jun 11 23:36:19 2002
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:36:19 -0400
Subject: Happy Bloomsday
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.193619.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Those of you who have memorized Ulysses -- and I hope that that is all
of you -- will remember that in the chapter set in the National Library
there is the following passage:

        Lenehan gave a loud cough.  -- Ahem! he said very softly.  O,
for a fresh of breath air! [sic] I caught a cold in the park.  The gate
was open.
        James Joyce, Ulysses.  (The "Omnium Gatherum" subsection of the
chaper "Aeolus" (ch. 7).  vol. II, p. 281 of the Hans Gabler edition)

I was reading an issue of the Evening Chronicle from 1837 just the
other day, and found the following foreshadowing of Lenehan's joke:

        Two loafers slept in the Park last night, taking the precaution
to keep the gates shut.

And what was the date of this newspaper?  June 16, 1837!  Pretty
spooky, eh?  And some people say there is no god, and that James Joyce
wasn't him.

(I apologize for sending this Bloomsday wish out a few days early, but
I expect to be on the road on the 16th.)

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998.


From buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET  Wed Jun 12 02:27:50 2002
From: buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET (DAK)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:27:50 -0400
Subject: BLUE CENT
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.222750.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OPA            Tokens used for rationing during World War II
                    There are 30 different red tokens and 24 blue ones.
                    They are all celluloid and 16mm in size.

Blue ones read:  OPA   Blue Point 1       (with two different letters)

            Red ones read: OPA Red Point 1 (with two different letters)

===============================================

.
  1.  OPA Tokens - Red and Blue
    E-mail Token Bob OPA's. ... OPA Tokens used for rationing during World War II There ... Blue ones read: OPA
    Blue Point 1 (with two different letters ...
    http://www.fantasticprices.com/token/...

  2.
    Victory (E-)Mail
    ... I recall from the World ... The red and blue tokens ... stamp, you received the token ... Richard Buro (Temple
    ISD): Rationing ... the table during the war ... But we had two bikes ...
    http://www.rice.edu/armadillo/About/w...

  3.
    Welcome to Coin World - enriching coin collecting through ...
    ... Price Administration in 1944 during World War ... family during periods of rationing ... issued in red and
    blue ... sides of the OPA token ... a numeral 1 flanked by two ...
    http://www.coinworld.com/scripts/Glos...

  4.
    Welcome to Coin World - enriching coin collecting through ...
    ... Price Administration in 1944 during World War ... family during periods of rationing ... issued in red and
    blue ... sides of the OPA token ... a numeral 1 flanked by two ...
    http://www.coinworld.com/scripts/Glos...

  5.
    Washington Station, Chapter 5
    ... Token, Token, Who Has a Token ... Finally, after two years of rationing ... came our way during the war ...
    disposition of these red and blue ... government to use for rationing ...
    http://users.snip.net/~cgf172/DC%20St...

  6.
    WOMEN IN THE WEATHER BUREAU DURING WORLD WAR II
    ... In short, it is a token ... stores and cope with rationing ... US Weather Bureau during World ... I recall that there
    were two ... a contribution to the war ... the clean deep blue ...
    http://www.lib.noaa.gov/edocs/women.html

  7.
    pepita7
    ... Josephine Martinez Granado. World War II. ... The rationing, when I was ... I used to have two ... I have one
    token; a ... for the meat and blue ... for entertainment during the war ...
    http://www.geocities.com/our_morenci/...

  8.
    The Victory Home: A WWII Home Front Reference Library
    ... book/stamps, 9. Ration token. ... the Great Depression to World War II ... card--one pound every two ...
    customers under the point rationing ... Washington, DC Blue and red ...
    http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~mcoates/...

  9.
    CI Reader Volume 2 Chapter 1
    ... diplomatic posts around the world ... interested in the election, rationing ... to be a good luck token ...
    individual was wearing a blue ... about one or two ... to prisoners of war ...
    http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/docs/ci...

 10.
    WOMEN IN THE WEATHER BUREAU DURING WORLD WAR II
    ... In short, it is a token ... stores and cope with rationing ... US Weather Bureau during World ... I recall that there
    were two ... a contribution to the war ... the clean deep blue ...
    http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/~nws/women/h...

 11.
    Twentieth-Century NC
    ... It acknowledges that World War ... The Duke Blue Devils lose ... 1944 Because of food rationing ... beginning
    a period of token ... Their war whoops and ... the Klan members, two ...
    http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/ed_time_...

 12.
    ADDRESS OF THE PRESIDENT BROADCAST NATIONALLY
    ... no one can draw a blue ... the home front." For the two ... greater justice throughout the world ... By the same
    token -- a ... buying your limit of war ... and in making rationing ...
    http://www.mhric.org/fdr/chat25.html

 13.
    Joy Of Cooking - Edition History
    ... Dark blue cover with blue & ... from the same plates, with World War II rationing ... published in various one-
    or two ... Swats, Judy Israel, Mark Becker(token ...
    http://www.cookbkjj.com/college/joy.htm

 14.
    Fordhouses Methodist Church History
    ... Two months ago several memorial ... recess refurbished with a blue ... the blackout, bombing raids, rationing ...
    As a token of gratitude ... of hostilities in World War ...
    http://www.scit.wlv.ac.uk/~cm1914/Wol...

 15.
    World War 2 Timeline -- Earth 2
    ... Events in Dark Blue are ... 1940 January 8, 1940- Rationing ... for the US in World ... damage another cruiser
    and two ... landing of the Pacific War ... but resistance is token. ...
    http://members.aol.com/GAThrawn13/chi...


From Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM  Wed Jun 12 02:38:25 2002
From: Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM (Jewls2u)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:38:25 -0700
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <p04320401b92c37d19199@[130.132.231.164]>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.193825.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have been a west coaster all of my life and always thought soda was pop,
not seltzer. Clear soda would read the same to me as clear pop...that is
7-Up or Sprite. Many moons ago I worked in a hospital where patients were
given a clear liquid diet for any number of reasons, including an upset
stomach. Clear liquids included Sprite, 7-Up, broth, jello and flat Coke.

Julienne

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Laurence Horn
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 3:30 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Soda pop


At 6:11 PM -0400 6/11/02, Rick Kennerly wrote:
>  ><))));>Though I have always known gingerale to be the curative.
>
>If only it had any real ginger in it anymore.  Nowadays,  the ginger in
>ginger ale is a mere artificial flavor.  On other e-mail lists I belong to
>where we discuss open water sailboat cruising & the liveaboard lifestyle,
>as far as the natural preventatives are concerned,  real candied ginger is
>the thing, followed by homemade ginger snaps.  Also, available in sailing
>shops, is ginger ale made with real ginger.  Of course, preventative is the
>operative word here.
>
Have you checked out Goya's (or other Caribbean-style) ginger BEER?
It tastes quite gingery to me, infinitely more so than so-called
ginger ale, and quite tasty (as soft drinks go).  The nomenclature is
puzzling, though.  It's clear that no formula along the lines of

ginger beer : beer :: ginger ale : ale

can be plausibly defended.

larry


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Jun 12 03:05:09 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:05:09 -0400
Subject: Bat Mitzvah (1921, 1949); Kosher (1620); Mellah
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0206102226520.478-100000@ares.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.230509.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Fred Shapiro wrote:

#This appears to be the earliest in the Times, with the spelling "bas
#mitzvah":
#
#1938 _N.Y. Times_ 22 May 45  Mr. and Mrs. George N. Janis announce the bas
#mitzvah of their daughter, Ruth, Saturday, May 28, 1938.

The /s/ pronunciation, deriving from the Yiddish pronunciation of the
Hebrew tav ("sav, thav"; the undotted form of the last letter of the
aleph-bet) is the only one I would expect in the US in that period.
"Bat" is the Sephardi pronunciation used in Modern Hebrew. Cf.
        Yiddish         ModHeb          gloss
        shabbos         shabbat         Sabbath
/       bris                            circumcision
\                       brit (milah)    covenant (of circ.)

-- Mark A. Mandel


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Wed Jun 12 10:24:53 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 06:24:53 -0400
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <p04320401b92c37d19199@[130.132.231.164]>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.062453.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

|o| Have you checked out Goya's (or other Caribbean-style) ginger BEER?

No, but I'll give it a try.

|o|The nomenclature is
|o| puzzling, though.  It's clear that no formula along the lines of
|o|
|o| ginger beer : beer :: ginger ale : ale
|o|
|o| can be plausibly defended.
|o|

But ginger beer flows from the same er...root...as root beer, as does birch
beer.  What is confusing is the word beer, which has two meaning in English.
One, the Bud Light kind made from cereals and containing alcohol and the
other in the sense of a beverage made from root extracts that is
non-alcoholic, a usage almost lost in modern language outside an A&W stand.
They both have the common brewers link of natural carbonation, caused by the
addition of yeast and sugar before bottling.  Alcoholic beer and
non-alcoholic beer differ only base ingredients (cereals vs root extract)
and in the fermentation process.

BTW, the root in root beer is traditionally an extract of the root of the
sassafras tree or, in older days, the sarsaparilla vine--making sarsaparilla
the good-guy drink in old westerns and a word that always gives me the
giggles.

rhk


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 12 10:31:25 2002
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 03:31:25 -0700
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <NJEFLDNDEIDMAKCHIMJGIEFNCFAA.rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.033125.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Speaking of real ginger, ginger beer is a spicy gingerale which has
real ginger.


--- Rick Kennerly <rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM> wrote:
> ><))));>Though I have always known gingerale to be the curative.
>
> If only it had any real ginger in it anymore.  Nowadays,  the
> ginger in
> ginger ale is a mere artificial flavor.  On other e-mail lists I
> belong to
> where we discuss open water sailboat cruising & the liveaboard
> lifestyle,
> as far as the natural preventatives are concerned,  real candied
> ginger is
> the thing, followed by homemade ginger snaps.  Also, available in
> sailing
> shops, is ginger ale made with real ginger.  Of course,
> preventative is the
> operative word here.
>
> BTW, in an article I read some time back on the making of the movie
> Apollo
> 13, where much of the film was shot inside NASAs zero gravity
> simulator, an
> airplane aptly nicknamed the vomit comet, it was intimated that
> NASA
> astronauts swear by cherry-flavored Lifesavers as a preventative.
>
> rhk


=====
Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Associate Professor - English and Linguistics
 & University Editor
Department of English
Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
(757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home)
e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu   or   mlee303 at yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 12 12:22:03 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:22:03 -0400
Subject: Arthur Andersen trial
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.082203.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from AOL News:
"Deliberations began Thursday and stretched through the weekend. The jury has been quiet since Sunday, when U.S. District Judge Melinda Harmon denied their request for a dictionary."


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun 12 12:57:24 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:57:24 -0400
Subject: Arthur Andersen trial
In-Reply-To: <4D97BA75.12395EF2.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.085724.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

>from AOL News:
>"Deliberations began Thursday and stretched through the weekend. The
jury has been quiet since Sunday, when U.S. District Judge Melinda
Harmon denied their request for a dictionary."

That is an ordinary and usual response to a request for a dictionary from
a jury - and rightly so, probably. The judge also said that she or others
would define words for the jurors. What I would like to know is whether
words were in fact defined - if definitions were actually requested - or
whether, as is usual, jurors were simply referred back to their
original instructions.

Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 12 14:30:06 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:30:06 -0400
Subject: Mevin (1950); Falafel (1953); Nu (1949)
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.103006.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Merry Christmas Everybody
--Arthur Godfrey
   _ABC--Always Buy Chesterfield_
(The full-color, back-page ad in the NATIONAL JEWISH MONTHLY, December 1948--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
MEVIN

   A much more appropriate advertisement is this one, in the NATIONAL JEWISH MONTHLY, November 1950, pg. 109:

A "Meichel"* for a "Mevin"**
with an (u) on the label***

      A Glossary of Terms
      (Just in case you need it)

*_Meichel_ (pronounced mi-chel)--a delicacy; a choice morsel.  Example: Heinz Kosher Baked Beans.  The oven-baking and the delicious tomato sauce are what make them a "meichel" (see definition above).
**_Mevin_ (pronounced ma-vin)--a connoisseur; an expert.  Example: The Jewish housewife who buys no other beans but Heinz.
***(u)(pronounced o-yu)--the seal of endorsement of THE UNION OF ORTHODOX JEWISH CONGREGATIONS OF AMERICA.  The (u) seal is on the front of the label.

HEINZ OVEN-BAKED BEANS
Strictly Kosher--Strictly Pareve--Strictly Vegetarian

(The revised OED has 1952 for "maven"...Normally, "the language maven" would be interested in this, but it comes from Barry Popik, so it'll never be printed--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
FALAFEL (continued)

   From THE JEWISH SPECTATOR, vol18, January 1953, pg. 17, col. 2:

   And there are the boot blacks with their long boxes, and the "falafel" stands.  That you learn is a special Israeli spicy, fried concoction which is eaten together with pickle and a brown roll.  If you pass that up you may treat yourself to a hot corn served on a corn husk--without butter, of course.  There is "tzena" (austerity) in Israel and no butter is served with anything.

---------------------------------------------------------------
CHOCOLATE MATZOS

   Perhaps of interest to the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD.
   From the NATIONAL JEWISH MONTHLY, February 1950, pg. 218, back age ad:

_32 KOSHER FOR PASSOVER_
_delicacies by BARTON'S bonbonniere_

The New
Chocolate MATZOS
The Pasover Sensation!
Replicas of matzos in Barton's incomparable chocolate--studded with nuts.
1 lb. $1.40  2 lbs. $2.80

(What'll they think of next?  Chocolate-covered macaroons?--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
NU

   From the NATIONAL JEWISH MONTHLY, February 1949, pg. 171, col. 3:

_NU?_
_A True Short Story_
By Bernard Passman
(...)
   "Know any Yiddish?" he demanded.
   "A little," I answered, becoming more baffled by the minute.
   "Ever heard of the word _nu_?"
   "Sure," I said.  "Don't you ever listen to Fred Allen?"
   "No.  What does it mean?"
   "It means _well_."
   "Well, what?"
   "That's all--just _well_.  As in _'Nu, vus vils du?'_--or, 'Well, what do you want?'"  _From my young life_, I felt like adding.
   The colonel looked doubtful.
(...)


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Jun 12 15:10:38 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:10:38 -0700
Subject: Soda pop
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.081038.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>> Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM 06/11/02 07:38PM >>>
I have been a west coaster all of my life and always thought soda was pop,
not seltzer.

I have heard many Californians use soda, even in places where old-timers used to say pop.  For me, when I was growing up, 'soda' was a white powder that we used in baking.  I was amazed that anyone could use it as a drink.  I thought soda must be one of the ingredients in pop--maybe the one that gave pop its fizz.
Fritz


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun 12 15:23:48 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:23:48 -0400
Subject: SCMLA Oct 30-Nov 1, 2003 - Hot Springs, Arkansas
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.112348.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am planning to propose a Special Session on Linguistics Communities in
the South Central Region for the Fall 2003 meeting of SCMLA in Hot
Springs, Arkansas - please email me privately if you think you might be
interested in participating.

Thanks,
Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 12 17:54:54 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:54:54 -0400
Subject: Kibbutz, Moshav, Shlemazzle (1928)
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.135454.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SHLEMAZZLE

   From the B'NAI B'RITH MAGAZINE (NATIONAL JEWISH MONTHLY), February 1928, pg. 130, col. 2:

   "...and look at me, all covered with flour--what don't I look like--I've been such a _shlemazzle_..."

(See "Laverne & Shirley" tv theme song, as sung by Penny Marshall--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
KIBBUTZ

   From the B'NAI B'RITH MAGAZINE, April 1928, pg. 231, col. 2:

   It is a _moshav_, or small holder's settlement, with a population of about a hundred families, each of which occupies a separate plot of ground, and works it under conditions much like those of the settlers in Crimea.

  (...)

  Ain Harod, the largest _kevutzah_ in Palestine, is a striking manifestation of radical social theory.  Over four hundred persons live here an absolutely communal life, eating together in large community dining halls, sleeping together in common barracks, sharing alike in the good and ill fortunes of the community.  Private property is practically unknown.

(OED has 1931 for "kibbutz" and "moshav"--ed.)


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Jun 12 20:32:40 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:32:40 -0700
Subject: pre-purchased
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.133240.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here is a note from our person in charge of student 'stuff' at our high school:

All students who pre-purchased a yearbook will have theirs delivered directly to their homes from the yearbook company.   Last chance to get your yearbook inserts today after school, for those who have already purchased yearbooks.

Any comments on 'pre-purchased'?  Why not just 'purchased' ?  Of course, I understand it, but it looks and sounds very odd to me, especially since she switched to 'already purchased' late rin the message.
Fritz


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Wed Jun 12 20:47:17 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 21:47:17 +0100
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <sd074da5.080@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.214717.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Wednesday, June 12, 2002 1:32 pm -0700 FRITZ JUENGLING
<juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US> wrote:

> Here is a note from our person in charge of student 'stuff' at our high
> school:
>
> All students who pre-purchased a yearbook will have theirs delivered
> directly to their homes from the yearbook company.   Last chance to get
> your yearbook inserts today after school, for those who have already
> purchased yearbooks.
>
> Any comments on 'pre-purchased'?  Why not just 'purchased' ?  Of course,
> I understand it, but it looks and sounds very odd to me, especially since
> she switched to 'already purchased' late rin the message.

Pre-purchased because you're not actually in possession of the thing you
purchased yet--ownership of the yearbook is still vague (the payer 'owns'
it without having it).  I'd probably prefer 'all students who've paid for
their yearbooks'.

Lynne

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun 12 20:51:57 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:51:57 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <sd074da5.080@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.165157.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

>Any comments on 'pre-purchased'?  Why not just 'purchased' ?  Of course,
I understand it, but it looks and sounds very odd to me, especially since
she switched to 'already purchased' late rin the message.

How about "pre-paid"?

Bethany


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Jun 12 20:55:56 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:55:56 -0700
Subject: pre-purchased
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.135556.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Pre-purchased because you're not actually in possession of the thing you
>purchased yet--ownership of the yearbook is still vague (the payer 'owns'
>it without having it).

Yes, the meaning is clear, but when you order something thru the mail and send along payment, but have not received the item, would you say that you have "pre-purchased" it until it shows up?
Fritz




Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Jun 12 21:00:11 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:00:11 -0700
Subject: pre-purchased
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.140011.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bethany,
are you suggesting that 'pre-paid' be substituted for 'pre-purchased' or that 'pre-paid' is another goofy (unnecessary?) word, i.e. if you give money for something, you 'pay'-- no need to say 'pre-' ?
Fritz


>Any comments on 'pre-purchased'?  Why not just 'purchased' ?  Of course,
I understand it, but it looks and sounds very odd to me, especially since
she switched to 'already purchased' late rin the message.

How about "pre-paid"?


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Jun 12 21:03:58 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:03:58 -0700
Subject: pre-purchased and diploma's
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.140358.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, regardless of purchasing or pre-purchasing, our graduating seniors were instructed on the signs in front of our school that "DIPLOMA'S CAN BE PICKED UP ON TUESDAY. "
Fritz
>>> dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU 06/12/02 01:51PM >>>
On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

>Any comments on 'pre-purchased'?  Why not just 'purchased' ?  Of course,
I understand it, but it looks and sounds very odd to me, especially since
she switched to 'already purchased' late rin the message.

How about "pre-paid"?

Bethany


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun 12 21:15:56 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:15:56 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <sd075404.085@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.171556.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

>Bethany, >are you suggesting that 'pre-paid' be substituted for
'pre-purchased' or that 'pre-paid' is another goofy (unnecessary?) word,
i.e. if you give money for something, you 'pay'-- no need to say 'pre-' ?
>Fritz

I usually like shorter goofy words better than longer goofy words!

Bethany


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun 12 21:17:39 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:17:39 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased and diploma's
In-Reply-To: <sd0754e9.000@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.171739.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

>Well, regardless of purchasing or pre-purchasing, our graduating seniors
were instructed on the signs in front of our school that "DIPLOMA'S CAN BE
PICKED UP ON TUESDAY. "

Ah, good! No pickups, prepaid or prepurchased or otherwise, without
greengrocers' apostrophes! There's progress!

: )

Bethany


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Wed Jun 12 21:23:10 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 22:23:10 +0100
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <sd0752fa.070@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.222310.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Wednesday, June 12, 2002 1:55 pm -0700 FRITZ JUENGLING
<juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US> wrote:

>> Pre-purchased because you're not actually in possession of the thing you
>> purchased yet--ownership of the yearbook is still vague (the payer 'owns'
>> it without having it).
>
> Yes, the meaning is clear, but when you order something thru the mail and
> send along payment, but have not received the item, would you say that
> you have "pre-purchased" it until it shows up? Fritz

You'd usually say you'd 'ordered' it, because in the mail-order context,
the fact that you've paid when ordering is usually understood.  But outside
that context, 'order' doesn't work--when I order a sandwich, I don't pay
for it until it's arrived.  So you need something different to say in a
situation like buying yearbooks or girl scout cookies in anticipation of
receiving them much later.

As usual, my examples have made me hungry.

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Jun 12 21:27:05 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:27:05 -0700
Subject: pre-purchased
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.142705.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>As usual, my examples have made me hungry.


Me, too--thanks goodness my daughter is a Girl Scout.

Fritz



Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Jun 12 21:58:23 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:58:23 -0700
Subject: seedless and seeded
In-Reply-To: <sd075a4b.087@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.145823.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At a local grocery store in Monroe, Wash. there are several bins of
watermelons half of which have signs reading "Seedless 49c per lb." and,
for the sake of clarity I guess, the others have signs reading: "Seeded
29c per lb."

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 12 22:46:14 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:46:14 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <33142738.3232909390@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.184614.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Lynne,

Have you learned to eat yearbooks in Sussex?

But, on-topic, I don't find making the distinction between stuff you
paid for and ain't got yet and stuff you paid for and done got
useless, and I think Bethany meant for "prepaid" to be the slightly
less fancy synonym of "prepurchased."

Could we have some lexical semantic explanation (unless, as is so
often the case, it is something lurking in the phonology) of why they
both sound real good to me and "prebought" sounds awful.

dInIs


>--On Wednesday, June 12, 2002 1:55 pm -0700 FRITZ JUENGLING
><juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US> wrote:
>
>>>Pre-purchased because you're not actually in possession of the thing you
>>>purchased yet--ownership of the yearbook is still vague (the payer 'owns'
>>>it without having it).
>>
>>Yes, the meaning is clear, but when you order something thru the mail and
>>send along payment, but have not received the item, would you say that
>>you have "pre-purchased" it until it shows up? Fritz
>
>You'd usually say you'd 'ordered' it, because in the mail-order context,
>the fact that you've paid when ordering is usually understood.  But outside
>that context, 'order' doesn't work--when I order a sandwich, I don't pay
>for it until it's arrived.  So you need something different to say in a
>situation like buying yearbooks or girl scout cookies in anticipation of
>receiving them much later.
>
>As usual, my examples have made me hungry.
>
>Lynne
>
>
>Dr M Lynne Murphy
>Lecturer in Linguistics
>Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
>School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
>University of Sussex
>Brighton BN1 9QH
>UK
>
>phone +44-(0)1273-678844
>fax   +44-(0)1273-671320

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Wed Jun 12 23:16:57 2002
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:16:57 -0500
Subject: Blue cent
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.181657.0500.>

It may or may not be relevant to recall that during WWII many food items
were rationed in the U.S.  Every individual was entitled to a monthly quota
of different kinds of ration stamps.  To purchase a rationed item, the
buyer paid both a price in dollars and a separate price in ration stamps.
Cardboard tokens were used as "change" for items valued at a fraction of a
ration stamp.  The tokens were about the size of a penny, and were issued
in two colors:
red for meat and blue for processed foods.

IIRC, the tokens replaced ration stamps in 1944 or so -- but my memory of
these items is fuzzy: in my family, my mother closely controlled everyone's
food stamps.  The only reason my father retained control of gasoline ration
stamps was that my mother never learned to drive.

-- mike salovesh   <m-salovesh-9 at alumni.uchicago.edu>   PEACE !!!

"Douglas G. Wilson" wrote:
>
> >My dictionaries of slang have nothing to say about "blue cent",
> >meaning an insignificant amount. Can anyone help with an origin
> >and/or likely age?
>
> I've never heard it myself AFAIK.
>
> Here is an example attributed to Woody Guthrie, not explicitly dated but
> supposedly pre-1979, from the Web:
>
> <<But I still am glad I did fall heir to my chorea because it makes me stay
> dizzy and drunk all the time without paying my bartender one little blue
> cent.>>
>
> "Blue cent" is found on the Internet several times, clearly equivalent to
> the [far] more frequent and usual "red cent". Of course "red cent" means
> "copper [or bronze] cent" [the standard US one-cent coin], and the "red" is
> probably a simple intensifier, adding no information, probably analogous to
> "thin" in "thin dime" ... although there were (long ago) "white cents",
> one-cent coins made of white metal ('steel' one-cent coins issued during WW
> II were not usually called "white" AFAIK).
>
> I think a somewhat arbitrary adjective can serve as an intensifier in these
> casual expressions, like "I didn't get a single solitary tiny little
> f*cking red cent" or "he can kiss my big fat happy [choose skin colour]
> arse". However, in some cases the adjective has some sense, as in "[I
> didn't get a] plugged nickel" or "... bent farthing".
>
> Conjectures:
>
> (1) "Blue" referring to a copper cent which has been exposed to the
> elements, or to acid, and which has turned blue/green: thus less
> desirable/attractive than a shiny new cent. This possibility is supported
> by the existence of "green cent" occasionally in the same sense (a few
> Internet examples). This seems likely in US contexts from a few decades back.
>
> (2) "Blue" = "counterfeit". This sense of "blue" (in "blue bit") is given
> by Lighter (RHHDAS). [I suppose the original sense was "blue" = "(oxidized)
> copper" as in (1) versus "red" = "gold".] This is pre-1800, though, so I
> doubt its relevance.
>
> (3) "Blue" euphemistic for "bloody". Partridge gives this with example "I
> haven't a blue bean" = "I'm broke" from ca. 1910, supposedly obsolete by
> 1975 if I'm reading it right. This strikes me as a possibility, although
> perhaps not natural for US uses. [I see a few South African examples of
> "blue cent" on the Web.]
>
> (4) Doubly-nonsense intensifier chosen simply as a color in opposition to
> red: as in "I don't have a red cent; in fact, I don't even have a blue
> cent; in fact, I don't have a cent of any sort!" The existence of "green
> cent" occasionally in the same sense could support this possibility as well
> as (1).
>
> [NB: In Internet search, one will encounter -- in a certain role-playing
> game -- a fantasy figure, apparently a type of orc, called a "cent": this
> appears to be an abbreviation of "centurion", and they come in various
> colors, blue, red, yellow, etc. I strongly doubt any relevance to the
> current question.]
>
> -- Doug Wilson

--


From dave at WILTON.NET  Thu Jun 13 00:26:14 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:26:14 -0700
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0206121714060.9426-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.172614.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another "pre-" word that you see all time used by diplomats and reporters
(who, since they use words for a living, should know better) is
"pre-condition." As in: "Arafat would not agree on Sharon's pre-conditions
for the the talks." Plain, old "conditions" does just fine.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Bethany K. Dumas
> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 2:16 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: pre-purchased
>
>
> On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
>
> >Bethany, >are you suggesting that 'pre-paid' be substituted for
> 'pre-purchased' or that 'pre-paid' is another goofy
> (unnecessary?) word,
> i.e. if you give money for something, you 'pay'-- no need to
> say 'pre-' ?
> >Fritz
>
> I usually like shorter goofy words better than longer goofy words!
>
> Bethany
>


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 13 00:35:34 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:35:34 EDT
Subject: seedless and seeded
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.203534.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/12/2002 5:58:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes:

> At a local grocery store in Monroe, Wash. there are several bins of
>  watermelons half of which have signs reading "Seedless 49c per lb." and,
>  for the sake of clarity I guess, the others have signs reading: "Seeded
>  29c per lb."

I don't know if it still does, but years ago the Giant grocery chain in
Washington DC carried a house brand of "Dandruff Shampoo" and immediately
adjacent to it a house brand of "Anti-Dandruff Shampoo."

   - Jim Landau


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 13 01:05:57 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 21:05:57 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0206121714060.9426-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.210557.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:15 PM -0400 6/12/02, Bethany K. Dumas wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
>
>>Bethany, >are you suggesting that 'pre-paid' be substituted for
>'pre-purchased' or that 'pre-paid' is another goofy (unnecessary?) word,
>i.e. if you give money for something, you 'pay'-- no need to say 'pre-' ?
>>Fritz
>
>I usually like shorter goofy words better than longer goofy words!
>
>Bethany

Of course you'd need a non-goofy little word to go with "pre-pay" as
opposed to "pre-purchase":  You could pre-purchase the yearbook or
pre-pay *for* the yearbook but not vice versa.  I think it might even
be argued that there's a subtle distinction between pre-purchasing an
item and pre-paying for it, parallel to the distinction between
purchasing it and paying for it.  If an item may or may not be in
stock or available, or if the purchase in other ways might be
unconsummated, you could pre-pay for it (and get your money refunded
later) but that wouldn't necessarily be a case of pre-purchasing it.
One context might be (pre-)paying for playoff or World Series tickets
for a team that gets eliminated the last day of the regular season.
Possibly that would also count as (pre-)purchasing them, but maybe
not for everyone; as J. L. Austin would have said, purchasing
something requires "uptake" but paying for something needn't.

Larry,
plumping for the Bolinger Doctrine that every word should earn its keep


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 13 01:10:59 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 21:10:59 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b92d7eb77337@[35.12.20.194]>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.211059.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:46 PM -0400 6/12/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>But, on-topic, I don't find making the distinction between stuff you
>paid for and ain't got yet and stuff you paid for and done got
>useless, and I think Bethany meant for "prepaid" to be the slightly
>less fancy synonym of "prepurchased."

ah, if they ARE synonyms.  (See previous note.)

>
>Could we have some lexical semantic explanation (unless, as is so
>often the case, it is something lurking in the phonology) of why they
>both sound real good to me and "prebought" sounds awful.
>

well, it may be just the Latinate vs. native vocabulary distinction.
Pre- for Latin stems (pre-pay, pre-purchase) but not for Germanic
ones (*pre-buy).  Probably totally off-base, but it allows me to
nominate the elegant "forebuy" as a replacement:  "I forebought that
pickup."   Well, mebbe not.

L


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 13 01:48:02 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 21:48:02 EDT
Subject: Sam Levenson's Yiddish Glossary (1951 or 1946)
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.214802.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MEET THE FOLKS:
A SESSION OF AMERICAN-JEWISH HUMOR
with Sammy Levenson
New York: The Citadel Press
1951
(The book was issued in 1946; 1951 may just be the sixth printing.  Check LOC
records.  This adds to several other Yiddish word lists that I've added to
the ADS-L archives, such as KOSHER-AMERICANS--ed.)

Pg. 110:
      FAMILY LIFE
   HOME, SWEET HOME
DIE BUBBEH  A pensioned-off baby-sitter
DER ZADEH  Grandchild's press agent
MISHPOCHEH  Foreign Relations Committee
DER M'CHOOTEN  The leader of the opposition
AN AIDIM  An additional name on the letter box
A KOLLEH MOID  A juvenile delinquent
GOLDENEH CHASSENEH  See _finstereh yor_, then multiply by 50
A GRUBBER YOONG  Roughly speaking
A POTCH  Proven method for attracting a child's attention
AN ALTEH MACHASHAIFEH  A woman one year older than your wife
A TSVILLING  Double or nothing
A KOONTS  Quintuplets
ONGEBLOZZEN  Young father who wanted a boy...
TSORRES  Something you get from children
NOCHES  Something you get from grandchildren
A VANNEH  Softening-up process
A TOOMEL  A birthday party
A KOCHLEFFEL  The next door neighbor
GEDULT  Feeding the baby
(Pg. 111--ed.)
A PARTECH  Garment used by mothers to wipe babies' noses
A GLICK  Five daughters
NISHT GESHTOIGEN OON NISHT GEFLOIGEN  Louie's excuse for playing hookey
   FOR THE LADIES
RYSEN DIE FLAISH  Getting a manicure
DANKEN GUT!  Diaper service
GIB ZICH A SHOCKEL  Rumba lesson
SAICHEL  Something you need besides money to catch a husband
KOM DERLEBT  Collecting on life insurance
A VATIG  Reducing exercises
BRATER VIE LAINGER  An old girdle
A GRAISEH MITZIEH  A daughter-in-law
A HARTZ VATIG  The lady next door buys the same hat
AY, GOOT!  Taking off a pair of new shoes
A SHLIMOZZEL  A woman who is allergic to fur
FARDINEN A MITZVEH  Laughing at your husband's jokes
   FOR MEN ONLY
A SHVIGGER  John's other wife
A CHOLEM  Visit from Betty Grable
A LIVONEH  A bald head
VOS HOB ICH DOS GEDARFT?  Marriage
A BUBBEH MEISEH  21 plus
(Pg. 112--ed.)
BORVESS  Informal
A NISHGOOTNICK  A hen-pecked husband on his night off
NADAN  Matri-Money
A KITSEL  A sign of paternal affection (up to age 16)
HELFEN VIE A TAITEN BAHNKES  Hair tonic
   PLEASE OBLIGE
FARDREY ZICH DEIN KOP!  Go and get a hair-do!
NEM ZICH A VANNEH!  Go jump in the lake!
A SHANEH, RAINEH, KAPORREH!  A sterilized curse
BRECH A FOOS!  Last words of a losing argument
VER DERHARGET!  Greeting to a man who steps on your corn
Pg. 113:
      FOODS
Pg. 114:  What better lunch for a school child than cold _koogle_ from the
previous night with a crust that looked like the scales of a prehistoric
mammal, with (Pg. 115--ed.) a side dish of yesterday's _tsimmes_ and a seeded
roll oozing _hock-flaish_ in all directions.  For dessert, a penny for a
"twist" and back to school raring to go--to sleep. (...)
   Soup could offer a variety of surprises--_kreplach_ (meat balls with sport
jackets), exquisitely shaped (Pg. 116--ed.) by the sculptural genius of a
_balabusteh_, who always planned the structure of the _kreple_ so that a
tempting bit of the buried treasure should show through, just enough to make
the mouth water.
   Or soup might contain _lokshen_, which hung like weeping willows over the
_flaishigeh leffel_.  The excess _lokshen_ could either be sucked into the mo
uth or bitten into.
   What better contribution to _fressen_ have we given the world than the
incomparable _kishkeh_ (sections of fire hose)?  They tell me my _zadeh_
stuffed his own _kishkeh_ with cow's _kishkeh_ to the age of 94.  He carried
around a permanent heartburn which kept his body warm and protected him from
the severe Russian winters.
(Pg. 117--ed.)
   MAN DOES NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE
CHICKEN ZOOP  Oil on troubled waters (Not "Jewish penicillin"?--ed.)
MEIN BUBBEH'S TOM  Pickled herring at McGuinness'
SHMALTZ  Liquid heartburn
KREPLACH  The eternal triangle
RETACH  Repeat performance
SHNAPPS  Jewish anti-freeze
SMETENEH  Cold cream
A LEK OON A SHMECK  Hors d'oeuvres
ZAMD  Spinach
LOX  A fish used to wake the family on Sunday A.M.
LOX'N BAGEL  Romeo and Juliet
SCHAV  The Green Pastures
KASHEH, KOOGLE, KNISHES, KNADEL, KREPLACH  The Jewish "K" rations
FARSHIMELT  Penicillin
TSIMMES  14-carrot stew
KASHEH  The Jewish version of Serutan
BAGEL  Has no meaning by itself.  _See_ LOX'N BAGEL
GEHAKTEH TSORRES  A five-cent hamburger
A FINE-KOCHEN  Edible ping-pong balls
YOACH  Liquid lead
KNUBBLE  A breath-taking vitamin
GRIBBENES  Jewish popcorn
GESHVOLLEN  Bubble gum
VOORSHT  The K'Nobel prize
A GLEZEL TAY  The pause that refreshes
HOCK FLAISH  Blood and sand
(Pg. 118--ed.)
      CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS
KISHKEH  Wedding ring
KOSHER  A restaurant that serves no butter with meat meals
(Pg. 119--ed.)
STRICTLY KOSHER  A restaurant that serves no butter even with dairy meals
MATZOH  Temporary filling for cavities
SHMECK TAHBICK  Marijuana
A SHYLEH  The 64-dollar question
YONTEFDIK  Tight shoes
A SHABBES GOY  A pilot light
A POOSHKEH  A Jewish piggy bank
BET-GEVANT  Fire-escape decorations
VUNTSEN  Yer fodder's moustache
SHADCHEN  Jewish Manpower Commission
A SHOFER  An ill wood-wind that nobody blows good
A SUKKOH  A Quonset hut
A SHANEH GELECHTER  Getting hiccups on Yom Kippur
HERRING A fish with a useless head and tail
A LOTTEH  Square in the pants
BLINTZES  Dairy sleeping bags
A SCHMOOZ  A local call
(Pg. 120--ed.)
      AY, GOOT!
      OY, SCHLECHT!
   (...)  The KRECHTS may mean any of the following in any order:
NO MAIL TODAY!
THIS YOUNGER GENERATION!
SUCH RADISHES!
LOVE IS A BEAUTIFUL THING!
MY FEET BURN LIKE FIRE!
THE LAUNDRY RUINS EVERYTHING!
THOSE GUYS IN WASHINGTON!
WAS THAT A BEAUTIFUL FUNERAL!
THE DOCTOR SAYS I'LL BE ALL RIGHT
REMEMBERING WHOM YOU COULD HAVE MARRIED!
COMMENT ON THE MAID'S WORK
(Pg. 121--ed.)
HOW'S BUSINESS?
LETTER FROM THE BUREAU OF INTERNAL REVENUE
A NEW SET OF UPPERS
WE INTERRUPT THIS PROGRAM TO BRING YOU A SPECIAL NEWS BULLETIN...
   AY, GOOT! _or_ IT SHOULD HAPPEN TO ME!
A FARGENIGEN  Front row at the follies
A SIMCHEH  Wasserman negative
SHTAIN REICH  An expensive tombstone
GENOOG IZ GENOOG  And in conclusion...
A MACHAYEH  Seltzer water
KOVED  Allowing the other guy to pay the check
GESHMOK  Sleeping  a the movies
MOCH'N A GVALD  Winning at Bingo
A HAISEH VANNEH  Southern comfort
A SHTICK NOCHES  Finding a nickel in a phone booth
A SHTICK NAHR  The dope who puts it back

   OY!  SCHLECHT! _or_ IT SHOULD HAPPEN TO A DOG!
A LIVAYEH  Moving to the suburbs
GOT VAISS  I'll see you tomorrow if I'll live
A FARSHLEPTEH KRENK  A boat ride up the Hudson
KALT  The tenant's radiator
VARIM  The landlord's thermostat
OLAV HASHOLEM  Signing off
A ZIFTS  Exhale
(Pg. 122--ed.)
CHROPPEN  SHort wave
A FROSK  Shock treatment
A KVITCH  Opening of a mystery drama
A TSOOCHEPENESH  A trailer
FOLG MIR A GONG  Is this trip necessary?
HAYZERIG  A portable radio
BOACH VATIG  Something you get because you ate something that Momma told you
not to eat
A KOP VATIG  How much to tip the waiter
A FINSTEREH SOHF  Falling into a manhole
A FARDROSS  Throwing in a penny and getting no gum
(Pg. 123--ed.)
      COMMERCE
(...)  proffet, interres, benk, mugetch, lendler, discont, zex protsent,
checkbooch, risit, co-maker, and dropp-debt!
(Pg. 124--ed.)
BILLIG  A pre-war word meaning "cheap."  Has dropped out of both Yiddish and
English.
SHLECHT  Advertising for a partner
A CHOCHMEH  Sending a lawyer-letter to a creditor, and getting a
lawyer-letter in return
A GANTSEH M'GILEH  Income tax, simplified form
A SHVITZ BUD  Mechanism for putting through telephone calls
OHS SHIDDECH  Give me back my deposit!
NEBECH  In the 80% income tax bracket
A BUBBEH MEISEH  Money refunded cheerfully
BALABOSS  A man who can work 16 hours a day if he wants to
(Pg. 125--ed.)
      CHARACTERS
   ...the NUDNIK, the SCHNORRER, the LITVAK, etc.
(Pg. 126--ed.)
A GONTSER K'NOCKER  A man who does crossword puzzles with a fountain pen
A SHNORRER  The guy who insists you pay him the money you owe him
A FUNFENYIK  A nudnik with sinus trouble added
A NUDNICK  An authority on your subject
A SHTARKER CHORKTER  A guy who can eat just one salted peanut
A PISK  A tobacco auctioneer
A SHLOCK  A woman who is her own mother-in-law
A MIYESKITE  A very educated girl
GALITSIANER AND LITVAK  An interfaith meeting
A SHICKER  On a liquid diet
MOISHE KAPOYER  A man who forgetrs his own towel in a hotel
A KOBTSEN  A Civil Service worker
A SIDDER  One who watches babies
A YENTEH  A "news commentator" without a sponsor
KOOM ICH NISHT HEINT, KOOM ICH MORGEN  The new maid
MISHMOOGEH AHF TATE  A vegetarian with heartburn
DER MALECH HAMUVESS  A motorcycle policeman
A CHOZZER  A pig who eats like a horse
A VILDER MENTCH  A litvak with a herring
A GROBBER YOONG  A baseball umpire
A BAZEH CHAYEH  A bus driver
FARBLUNDJET  A kosher butcher in Scarsdale


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Jun 13 02:21:42 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 21:21:42 -0500
Subject: pre-purchased
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.212142.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On an almost related note, the signs outside the restrooms at our Target store caution against taking 'unpaid merchandise' into them. I always wanted them to say 'unpurchased' (though 'unboughten' would also be fun).


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 13 03:31:37 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 23:31:37 EDT
Subject: Goyim, Pallone, Commedia dell' arte, Scenario (1768)
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.233137.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

AN ACCOUNT OF THE MANNERS AND CUSTOMS OF ITALY
by Joseph Baretti
London: T. Davies
in two volumes
1768

   OED cites this work three times (orgeat, tarrocco, and slingsman).  The
title is different and different dates are also given (1768 and 1769).  Beats
me who does this stuff.

VOLUME ONE
Pg. 172:  ..._commedie dell' arte_ (a cant name for those burleque plays
substituted to the _commedie antiche_)...
(OED has 1877 for "commedie dell arte," which is here several times--ed.)

Pg. 174:  ..._scenario_ (so this kind of dramatic skeleton is called)...
(OED has 1878 for "scenario"--ed.)

Pg. 178:  ..which brought about the formation of those musical drama's now
called _opera's_ when they are serious, and _opera buffa's_, or _burletta's_,
when they are burlesque.
(OED has 1802 for "opera buffa"--ed.)

Pg. 180:  As for our _opera buffa's_ or _burletta's_, though we have a
multitude of them, yet no one is worth reading.

Pg. 180:  They invented likewise two other drama's, one called (Pg. 181--ed.)
_commedie pastorali_, _pastoral plays_, the other _commedie rustiche_,
_rustic plays_.

Pg. 199:  ..._cinquecentisti_*...
*THe Italians give this collective name to the learned who flourished in the
sixteenth century, or they call _Trecentisti_, _Quattrocentisti_, and
_Secentisti_, those who flourished in the fourteenth, fifteenth, and
sixteenth centuries.
(OED has all these terms, from about 1832, 1841, 1871, and 1875.  Put an
asterisk and leave off the ending--ed.)

Pg. 216:  These _serenatas_, as we call them...
(OED has 1743, then 1834--ed.)

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 105:  Yet this is no hardship on them, because they never voluntarily mix
with the _Gohims_, as they (Jews--ed.) call us, and superstitiously abhor all
food that is not dressed by cooks of their own persuasion.
(OED has 1841 for "goyim," under "goy"--ed.)

Pg. 174:  ...their common custom of _improvvisare_; that is, of singing
verses extempore to the guitar and other stringed instruments.
(There's a long explanation here.  OED has 1786 for "improvisation"--ed.)

Pg. 192:  As to the generality of our peasants and lower sort of people, they
breakfast on _polenta_, which is a sort of pudding made with the flower of
turkey-corn, on which while it is hot they spread some fresh butter, with the
addition of some walnuts or a slice of cheese, if they can afford it.

Pg. 195:  A common dinner begins with what is called in England a French
soup, and still oftener with a mess either of rice, of macaroni's, or of
legumes: then follow the boiled meats; then the roasted; and last the cheese
and fruit: nor is it customary to dine but in this order.

Pg. 206:  ...vandyke dress...
(OED has 1755, then 1769 under "vandyke"--ed.)

Pg. 207:  ...the Genoese _mestro_, and the divers sorts of _zendudo's_, or
head-dresses and veils.
(OED has 1789 for "zendale"--ed.)

Pg. 233:  ..._Pallone_.  A Pallone is a leather-ball filled with air, and
about as big as a man's head.
(OED has 1873 for "pallone"--ed.)

Pg. 252:  _alla moda_  (_fashionable_)...


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 13 04:24:30 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 00:24:30 EDT
Subject: Hoop and the Harm
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.002430.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Did I say Nets in four?  I meant LAKERS in four...Nothing like seeing your
team mauled by an 800-pound monster.
   When a basket is made, plus the shooter is fouled and goes to the line,
Marv Albert says "YESSSS!  AND IT COUNTS!"  However, I've heard and
web-checked this, which should be recorded:

hoop and the harm
hoop and some harm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 13 06:47:35 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 02:47:35 EDT
Subject: Pennies from heaven; Macher (1928)
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.024735.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE GHETTO MESSENGER
by Abraham Burstein
New York:  Bloch Publishing
1928

   Might as well add a few more antedate while I do the laundry...The OED is
"not responding" now, so I'll go blind on "macher."

Pg. 1:  WHY THERE ARE SO MANY COHENS.

Pg. 65:  ANd my whole mishpocha are doing the same thing.

Pg. 91:  The gentleman, being cognizant of "pennies falling from heaven" and
other tricks of clever m'lamdim, appeared to take it seriously, but later
laughingly related the incident to his wife.
(OED has 1936, from the "pennies for heaven" song title, but it now appears
to pre-date the Depression--ed.)

Pg. 176:  "He's a Litvak!  I don't want him!"

Pg. 301:
   GLOSSARY
(Not much exciting in the following, but the RHHDAS has "macher" from
1930--ed.)
Baale-Batim, men of property and prominence.
Baal ha-Bais, singular of above.
Baal Kreah, synagogue reader.
Baal T'filloh, reciter of prayers
Bar Mitzvah, a youth mature in the Law; confirmation.
Beth Din, rabbinic court.
Bimah, pulpit.
Brith, circumcision rite.
Chassid, man of great piety.
Chazan, cantor.
Chazir, pig.
Cheder, Hebrew School.
Cohen, Cohanim--priests, descendants of Aaron.
Erev Yom Tov, day before a holiday.
Fromm, pious, observant.
Gett, Jewish divorce.
Goy, Goyim, Gentile.
Goyishkeit, irreligion.
Jahrzeit, death anniversary.
Kaddish, memorial prayer.
Ma'alos, virtues.
Maariv, evening prayer.
Macher, important personage.
Mattanah, gift.
Mazel Tov, good luck.
Mesheberach, prayer for one called to the reading of the Law, generally
coupled with a donation to the synagogue.
(Pg. 302--ed.)
Mezuza, Mezuzoth, ceremonial object on doorpost of Jewish home.
Midrashim, collected legends.
Mincha, afternoon prayer.
Mishnah, primary portion of the Talmud.
Paskudzver, filthy one.
Rebbetzin, rabbi's wife.
Schnapps, whiskey.
Shabbos, Sabbath.
Shalom, peace-greeting.
Shammos, sexton.
Sheitel, wig.
Shlishi, third reader of the Law.
Shul, synagogue.
Tallis, Talethim, prayer shawl.
Talmid Chochom, man of learning.
T'phillin, phylacteries.
Tzusammen, together.
Yichus, high birth.
Yid, Jew.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Jun 13 11:12:18 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 07:12:18 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <p04320409b92da0c636d6@[130.132.245.162]>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.071218.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Alas! All those forebought Nets-Lakers tickets are worthless.

dInIs

>At 6:46 PM -0400 6/12/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>But, on-topic, I don't find making the distinction between stuff you
>>paid for and ain't got yet and stuff you paid for and done got
>>useless, and I think Bethany meant for "prepaid" to be the slightly
>>less fancy synonym of "prepurchased."
>
>ah, if they ARE synonyms.  (See previous note.)
>
>>
>>Could we have some lexical semantic explanation (unless, as is so
>>often the case, it is something lurking in the phonology) of why they
>>both sound real good to me and "prebought" sounds awful.
>>
>
>well, it may be just the Latinate vs. native vocabulary distinction.
>Pre- for Latin stems (pre-pay, pre-purchase) but not for Germanic
>ones (*pre-buy).  Probably totally off-base, but it allows me to
>nominate the elegant "forebuy" as a replacement:  "I forebought that
>pickup."   Well, mebbe not.
>
>L

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Thu Jun 13 11:55:06 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 07:55:06 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <p04320408b92d9ee7c629@[130.132.245.162]>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.075506.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

|o| Of course you'd need a non-goofy little word to go with "pre-pay" as
|o| opposed to "pre-purchase":  You could pre-purchase the yearbook or
|o| pre-pay *for* the yearbook but not vice versa.

I agree.  While pre-purchased falls into the same over-the-top category as
previously owned Mercedes Benz, pre-paid has specific utility and meaning.

In most business connotations, pre-paid carries the meaning of assured
delivery of a scarce resource.  While there may be a quantity of extra
yearbooks sent with the pre-paid yearbooks, the extras are sent on spec and
in a quantity that may not satisfy demand at the end of the year.

The word ordered falls short because it does not always carry the meaning of
paid in advance.


rhk


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Thu Jun 13 12:11:09 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:11:09 -0400
Subject: Huh?
In-Reply-To: <NJEFLDNDEIDMAKCHIMJGIEHDCFAA.rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.081109.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From a recent memo:

We regret both the short fuse and burdening you with another data call,
however findings and recommendations to xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  must be made at
the end of June.  Your input is much needed in order to provide a claimancy
azimuth representation.

Last sentence interpreted: if we don't complain now, we'll have no right to
bitch later.

rhk


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Jun 13 12:18:34 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:18:34 +0100
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b92d7eb77337@[35.12.20.194]>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.131834.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInIs,

> Have you learned to eat yearbooks in Sussex?

Didn't  you know that 'yearbook' is Sussex English for a ciabatta with
mozzarella, tomato, basil and olives?  Unless it's warm, in which case it's
called an 'almanac'.

If you're gullible, ignore this.
Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 13 13:13:41 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 06:13:41 -0700
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <sd074da5.080@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.061341.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The item has been purchased - paid for - but delivery
is at a future promised date.  To me pre-purchase
indicates the item might not even exist at the time of
pre-purchase but is to be made based on hard cash in
advance rather than good faith - the same for
services, cash in advance.  The printer might run a
few extra copies in anticipation of late purchases,
but perhaps yearbooks not pre-purchased will require a
second, custom printing run and will incur additional
charges, or they might not be available at all.



--- FRITZ JUENGLING
<juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US> wrote:
> Here is a note from our person in charge of student
> 'stuff' at our high school:
>
> All students who pre-purchased a yearbook will have
> theirs delivered directly to their homes from the
> yearbook company.   Last chance to get your yearbook
> inserts today after school, for those who have
> already purchased yearbooks.
>
> Any comments on 'pre-purchased'?  Why not just
> 'purchased' ?  Of course, I understand it, but it
> looks and sounds very odd to me, especially since
> she switched to 'already purchased' late rin the
> message.
> Fritz


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Jun 13 13:24:10 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:24:10 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <36374091.3232963114@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.092410.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Lynne,

And the one served on peasant bread is a 'farmer's almanac'?

dInIs

>dInIs,
>
>>Have you learned to eat yearbooks in Sussex?
>
>Didn't  you know that 'yearbook' is Sussex English for a ciabatta with
>mozzarella, tomato, basil and olives?  Unless it's warm, in which case it's
>called an 'almanac'.
>
>If you're gullible, ignore this.
>Lynne
>
>
>Dr M Lynne Murphy
>Lecturer in Linguistics
>Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
>School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
>University of Sussex
>Brighton BN1 9QH
>UK
>
>phone +44-(0)1273-678844
>fax   +44-(0)1273-671320

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Jun 13 13:32:15 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:32:15 +0100
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b92e4d2f8636@[35.10.92.197]>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.143215.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Thursday, June 13, 2002 9:24 am -0400 "Dennis R. Preston"
<preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU> wrote:

> Lynne,
>
> And the one served on peasant bread is a 'farmer's almanac'?

You got it.


But as long as we're being silly and off-topic here, I read the following
in _The Big Issue_ today about a pea-shooting contest in Cambridgeshire:

"It's traditional Bash Street Kids, English schoolboy, turn your baseball
cap backwards and fire kind of thing," said organiser Tom Wood.

I didn't know traditional English schoolboys played baseball....

Lynne





Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From john at FENIKS.COM  Thu Jun 13 14:10:25 2002
From: john at FENIKS.COM (John Blower)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:10:25 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <36639974.3232967535@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.101025.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 02:32 PM 6/13/02 +0100, you wrote:



>I didn't know traditional English schoolboys played baseball....

It's called "rounders".






Cheers!

John Blower/FeNiKs Business Communications
795 Mammoth Rd, #23, Manchester, NH 03104
V: 603 668 5601         F: 707 220 7490
Trainer at Large/Ace Copywriter
http://www.feniks.com/  mailto:john at feniks.com

From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Jun 13 14:13:51 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:13:51 +0100
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020613100944.00a8aaf0@mail.feniks.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.151351.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Thursday, June 13, 2002 10:10 am -0400 John Blower <john at FENIKS.COM>
wrote:

> At 02:32 PM 6/13/02 +0100, you wrote:
>
>
>
>> I didn't know traditional English schoolboys played baseball....
>
> It's called "rounders".
>

Well, not exactly the same thing
(see  http://rounders.punters.co.uk/rules.html)
and no one ever talks about wearing their rounders caps backwards!

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 13 14:18:34 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:18:34 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.101834.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002  9:32:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Lynne Murphy <lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK> writes:

>But as long as we're being silly and off-topic here, I read the following
>in _The Big Issue_ today about a pea-shooting contest in Cambridgeshire:
>
>"It's traditional Bash Street Kids, English schoolboy, turn your baseball
>cap backwards and fire kind of thing," said organiser Tom Wood.
>
>I didn't know traditional English schoolboys played baseball....
>
>Lynne

There is no implication that the English schoolboys play baseball, merely that they wear baseball caps, which leads to a serious question in non-verbal linguistics:

In England, what does a man or boy communicate by wearing a baseball cap?

In the English film "A Fish Named Wanda", there is one major character who is American, who is invariably shown wearing a baseball cap.  Is this an English stereotype of how Americans dress?  If so, was it a shorthand convention to inform an English audience that the character was American?

Also what is the significance of an English boy turning his baseball cap around?  (Girls cannot do this.  Their ponytails stick out through the gap between the cloth and the adjustment band.)

      - Jim Landau

P.S.  This being England, shouldn't that read "pease-shooting"?  As in "give pease a chance?"


From john at FENIKS.COM  Thu Jun 13 14:22:46 2002
From: john at FENIKS.COM (John Blower)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:22:46 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <5A306187.46743A65.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.102246.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:18 AM 6/13/02 -0400, you wrote:


>P.S.  This being England, shouldn't that read "pease-shooting"?  As in
>"give pease a chance?"

Or "Visualize Whirled Peas(e)"?




Cheers!

John Blower/FeNiKs Business Communications
795 Mammoth Rd, #23, Manchester, NH 03104
V: 603 668 5601         F: 707 220 7490
Trainer at Large/Ace Copywriter
http://www.feniks.com/  mailto:john at feniks.com

From john at FENIKS.COM  Thu Jun 13 14:27:01 2002
From: john at FENIKS.COM (John Blower)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:27:01 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <36790107.3232970031@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.102701.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:13 PM 6/13/02 +0100, you wrote:


>Well, not exactly the same thing
>(see  http://rounders.punters.co.uk/rules.html)
>and no one ever talks about wearing their rounders caps backwards!

But to the untutored eye...

We played rounders in primary school. In secondary school we graduated to
rugby (union) in the winter and cricket in the summer.








John Blower
Trainer, Editor, Copywriter
The Thatched Barn, Church Farm
Sunningwell, Oxon OX13 6RD, UK
http://www.feniks.com
mailto:john at feniks.com

From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Jun 13 14:28:23 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:28:23 +0100
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <5A306187.46743A65.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.152823.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Thursday, June 13, 2002 10:18 am -0400 "James A. Landau"
<JJJRLandau at AOL.COM> wrote:

>>
>> I didn't know traditional English schoolboys played baseball....
>>
>> Lynne
>
> There is no implication that the English schoolboys play baseball, merely
> that they wear baseball caps,

Point taken, but I didn't know that baseball caps were traditional UK
schoolboy attire.  Billed caps, perhaps, but 'baseball' caps?

>  which leads to a serious question in
> non-verbal linguistics:
> In England, what does a man or boy communicate by wearing a baseball cap?
>
> In the English film "A Fish Named Wanda", there is one major character
> who is American, who is invariably shown wearing a baseball cap.  Is this
> an English stereotype of how Americans dress?

Yes, definitely.  And it's amazing how reliable it is.  The US exchange
students seem to stop wearing theirs (and their frat/sorority sweatshirts)
within about a month.

> If so, was it a shorthand
> convention to inform an English audience that the character was American?

And probably a certain kind of American.  i.e. not the Andie McDowell in
_Four Weddings and a Funeral_ kind of American.


> Also what is the significance of an English boy turning his baseball cap
> around?  (Girls cannot do this.  Their ponytails stick out through the
> gap between the cloth and the adjustment band.)

What I don't understand is why you'd want to turn it around (or 'turn it
rouind', to talk like a local) if you're going to need to aim at something
and therefore keep the sun out of your eyes.  Oh, except that this is
England.  I'm wearing wool in the middle of June and it's been raining for
two weeks.  Ok, to keep the glare from the clouds out of your eyes.


> P.S.  This being England, shouldn't that read "pease-shooting"?  As in
> "give pease a chance?"

There's a village near Gatwick named Pease Pottage, and I can't ride by it
without thinking "Pease Pottage hot, Pease Pottage cold".  Btw, Bill
Bryson's _Notes from a Small Island_ has a nice appreciation of weird UK
placenames.

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Jun 13 14:29:12 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:29:12 +0100
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020613102259.009f2af0@mail.feniks.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.152912.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Thursday, June 13, 2002 10:27 am -0400 John Blower <john at FENIKS.COM>
wrote:

> At 03:13 PM 6/13/02 +0100, you wrote:
>
>
>> Well, not exactly the same thing
>> (see  http://rounders.punters.co.uk/rules.html)
>> and no one ever talks about wearing their rounders caps backwards!
>
> But to the untutored eye...

I dunno--the difference between bowling and pitching is pretty distinct,
I'd say...


tata,
Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Jun 13 14:56:36 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:56:36 -0400
Subject: still silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <5A306187.46743A65.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.105636.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jim,

Yes, I suspect this baseball-cap wearing is US in British eyes,
although its symbolism may have changed from "typical American" (as
in the Wandafishflick) to implications of hip-hop culture. Before
that latter development, the redoubtable Prof. Trudgill went around
annoying us Yanks by asking:
Q: "What do you do to make a yank drop 50 degrees of intelligence?"
A: Turn his baseball cap around backwards.

Of course, I may have the numbers wrong.

dInIs



>In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002  9:32:35 AM Eastern Daylight
>Time, Lynne Murphy <lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK> writes:
>
>>But as long as we're being silly and off-topic here, I read the following
>>in _The Big Issue_ today about a pea-shooting contest in Cambridgeshire:
>>
>>"It's traditional Bash Street Kids, English schoolboy, turn your baseball
>>cap backwards and fire kind of thing," said organiser Tom Wood.
>>
>>I didn't know traditional English schoolboys played baseball....
>>
>>Lynne
>
>There is no implication that the English schoolboys play baseball,
>merely that they wear baseball caps, which leads to a serious
>question in non-verbal linguistics:
>
>In England, what does a man or boy communicate by wearing a baseball cap?
>
>In the English film "A Fish Named Wanda", there is one major
>character who is American, who is invariably shown wearing a
>baseball cap.  Is this an English stereotype of how Americans dress?
>If so, was it a shorthand convention to inform an English audience
>that the character was American?
>
>Also what is the significance of an English boy turning his baseball
>cap around?  (Girls cannot do this.  Their ponytails stick out
>through the gap between the cloth and the adjustment band.)
>
>       - Jim Landau
>
>P.S.  This being England, shouldn't that read "pease-shooting"?  As
>in "give pease a chance?"

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From john at FENIKS.COM  Thu Jun 13 14:49:01 2002
From: john at FENIKS.COM (John Blower)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:49:01 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <36845489.3232970952@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.104901.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:29 PM 6/13/02 +0100, you wrote:



>I dunno--the difference between bowling and pitching is pretty distinct,
>I'd say...

Rounders "bowling" is like softball pitching, not the fully-fledged Wes
Hall number I remember from my youth.

So perhaps rounders should be equated with softball (less the caps, worn
forwards or backwards).

Cricketers, on the other hand, used to wear caps almost universally, but
ordinary "peaked" caps, as opposed to baseball caps. This, of course, was
when cricketers were required to wear white clothes...




John Blower
Trainer, Editor, Copywriter
The Thatched Barn, Church Farm
Sunningwell, Oxon OX13 6RD, UK
http://www.feniks.com
mailto:john at feniks.com

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 13 16:46:40 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:46:40 EDT
Subject: "Precrime" and Speilberg movie
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.124640.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED does not list "precrime" anywhere.  It's a hot word right now, and
this is from today's Drudge Report:


XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX THURSDAY JUNE 13, 2002 11:09:24 ET XXXX


SPIELBERG SIDES WITH BUSH ON FBI PRECRIME; DREAMWORKS EXEC CALLS ASHCROFT
'SCARY'

**Exclusive**

The DREAMWORKSFOX production MINORITY REPORT depicts a future where you can
be charged for future crimes you haven't yet committed.

"The guilty are arrested before the law is broken," warns a heavy-rotation TV
advert for the film, subtly placed during national and local news programs
this week reporting the United States has detained, indefinitely, but has not
criminally charged Jose Padilla for allegedly <A HREF="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20020613/ts_usatoday/4190019&printer=1">preparing a plan</A> to commit
terror.
(...)

"We set the clock [in the movie] in the 2050s, but it looks like we are
already there," claimed the top DREAMWORKS executive. "Please let him say he
is creating a Department of Precrime!"

As a new GALLUP <A HREF="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020611/ap_wo_en_po/us_terrorism_poll_3">poll shows 4 out of 5</A> Americans willing to give up some
freedom for more security Spielberg and associates have launched the movie
website tie-in <A HREF="http://www.precrime.org/">precrime.org</A> -- which includes a dramatic public service
announcement mocking a "future" government's attempt to "prevent" crimes.


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun 13 16:57:14 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:57:14 -0400
Subject: Purdue in November
In-Reply-To: <14d.f35c8ca.2a3a2670@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.125714.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Apologies for this lame email, but I honestly did try to find the
information in places I might have expected to find it, and I'm hoping
someone here is so familiar with the topic that they instantly can
answer...

Anyhoo, in my  mental calendar there is a linguistic and/or
lexicographical conference of interest in November at Purdue in West
Lafayette. (This is not the corpus/teaching conference at
Purdue-Indianapolis in November.)

Does anyone have a clue what conference I'm thinking about?

Much obliged.

-- Steve


From jbarrett at TARLETON.EDU  Thu Jun 13 17:26:26 2002
From: jbarrett at TARLETON.EDU (Jeanelle Barrett)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:26:26 -0500
Subject: Purdue in November
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0206131254090.16398-100000@panix1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.122626.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's a second language writing symposium
in October, could that be the one you're thinking about?
URL for the original Linguist List post follows:

http://www.linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-3038.html#1

Cheers,
Jeanelle (Purdue grad)

At 12:57 PM 6/13/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Apologies for this lame email, but I honestly did try to find the
>information in places I might have expected to find it, and I'm hoping
>someone here is so familiar with the topic that they instantly can
>answer...
>
>Anyhoo, in my  mental calendar there is a linguistic and/or
>lexicographical conference of interest in November at Purdue in West
>Lafayette. (This is not the corpus/teaching conference at
>Purdue-Indianapolis in November.)
>
>Does anyone have a clue what conference I'm thinking about?
>
>Much obliged.
>
>-- Steve

********************
Dr. Jeanelle Barrett
Assistant Professor of English
Coordinator, Graduate Program in English
Department of English and Languages
Tarleton State University
P.O. Box T-0300
Stephenville, Texas  76402
Office: 254-968-9319
Fax:  254-968-9393


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Thu Jun 13 17:49:29 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:49:29 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b92e2e6dcb00@[35.12.23.213]>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.134929.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

>Alas! All those forebought Nets-Lakers tickets are worthless.

That will teach you to foreplay - uh, forepay!

Bethany


From nerussel at MSN.COM  Thu Jun 13 18:22:02 2002
From: nerussel at MSN.COM (Nancy Russell)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:22:02 -0500
Subject: Please remove my name from the mailing list.
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.132202.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From: "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: pre-purchased
>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:49:29 -0400
>
>On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
> >Alas! All those forebought Nets-Lakers tickets are worthless.
>
>That will teach you to foreplay - uh, forepay!
>
>Bethany


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Thu Jun 13 21:23:05 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 17:23:05 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <36842572.3232970903@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.172305.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Lynne Murphy wrote:

#There's a village near Gatwick named Pease Pottage, and I can't ride by it
#without thinking "Pease Pottage hot, Pease Pottage cold".  Btw, Bill
#Bryson's _Notes from a Small Island_ has a nice appreciation of weird UK
#placenames.

See also _The Meaning of Liff_ and _The Greater[?] Meaning of Liff_, by
Douglas Adams (yes, of The Hitchhiker's trilogilogilogy) and someone
else. Liff is a UK placename. They provide definitions for these
funny-sounding placenames.

At least one of the books also includes some US placenames. I remember
my reaction to their definition of a Massachusetts one (fairly local to
me): "That's not funny-sounding at all."

All linguistic humor is local?

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large


From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU  Thu Jun 13 21:50:15 2002
From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:50:15 -0500
Subject: SCMLA Oct 30-Nov 1, 2003 - Hot Springs, Arkansas
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.165015.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I might like to participate.  I'm still working on my project on linguistic
fingerprinting--although it's in its early stages.  Statistical data might not
be complete, but the plan is outlined.  I could discuss cardinal and ordinal
indicators in prose.
Lesa Dill

"Bethany K. Dumas" wrote:

> I am planning to propose a Special Session on Linguistics Communities in
> the South Central Region for the Fall 2003 meeting of SCMLA in Hot
> Springs, Arkansas - please email me privately if you think you might be
> interested in participating.
>
> Thanks,
> Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 13 23:28:46 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:28:46 EDT
Subject: Homus, Taheny, Kafta, Kanafeh (1950)
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.192846.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GOING TO JERUSALEM
by WIllie Snow Ethridge
New York: Vanguard Press, Inc.
1950

   I didn't see "falafel" here, but I went through the book in about 100
second before the library closed.
   OED has 1955 for "hummus."  OED has 1950 for "tahine."  OED does not have
"kanafeh," but there are some Google hits for this (also, "kanafe").
"Sansbousick" and "baadounsia" and "seameh" must have other spellings.

Pg. 196:
   My favourite was _homus_, a thick paste made out of those little round,
yellow chick peas, mashed and mixed with _teheny_, the Arab name for the
second stage, or dregs, of sesame.  My second favourite, and here I promise
to stop, was _sansbousick_, a crescent-shaped pastry stuffed with highly
seasoned ground meat and fried in oil.  I must have eaten, conservatively
speaking, a dozen of these.

Pg. 197:
   But they did all right at lunch.  They went right htrough crisp, fried
eggplant spread with leban (sour milk); and broad beans cooked in their pods
with _seameh_ (another oil, derived I am sure, from sesame), and wonderful
rice, every grain separate and chock-full of nuts and raisins; and _kaftas_
(flattened meat balls), packed with minced parsley and onions and fried,
without a doubt, in oil; and a salad called _baadounsia_ which is chopped
parsley dressed with that second stage of sesame--_teheny_; and, for dessert,
_kanafeh_.
   Now this _kanafeh_ is something very specially Arab.  I saw it again and
again in the suks, but never tasted any that melted in the mouth like
Katie's.  For the roommate's sweet-tooth's sake I tried to learn how to make
it, but I must say Katie's directions were rather vague.
   "Take an enormous piepan," said she, "and sprinkle the bottom with a layer
of shredded wheat, then a layer of cheese, then another layer of shredded
wheat and so on until you get to the top, and then sprinkle the top with
roasted pine and pistachio nuts; and, finally, pour over the whole thing a
lot of melted sugar and put in the oven and bake.  Simple, see?"
   "Oh, sure," said I, and took another helping.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 14 01:10:25 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:10:25 EDT
Subject: Gravlax, Permis de sejour (1848)
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.211025.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE CZAR, HIS COURT AND PEOPLE
INCLUDING A TOUR IN NORWAY AND SEDEN
by John S. Maxwell
New York: Baker and Scribner
1848

   I didn't find a "smorgasbord," but there's still stuff here.

Pg. 25:  The bread furnished the traveller is made of rye, flavored with
aniseed.  Besides this, he is served with an abundant supply of oat-cake,
eggs, fresh trout, soup, potatoes, preserved cherries, and plenty of wild
mountain strawberries, cream, milk and butter.

Pg. 26:  The ordinary liquor of the country, a strong, fiery, but pure
spirit, is called _Finkel_.  It is distilled in every farm-house, from
potatoes, and is used the first thing in the morning and the last thing at
night.  It is taken in sickness and in health, and is the Norwegian panacea
for all the ills of life.
(I've seen "Finkel" before, but I can't seem to find it on OED or on the web.
 Spelling?--ed.)

Pg. 77:  A quantity of oatmeal flour, mixed and flavored with aniseed, is
baked in small thin biscuit-like cakes, called _knacken brod_.  This biscuit
is stored away and before the next semi-annual baking, becomes hard as stone,
and adapted only to the fine strong teeth of the peasantry.
   In the northern parts of Sweden Norway and Finland in periods of scarcity,
the inner rind of the fir-tree is taken out, dried, pulverized, and
manufactured into a kind of meal, which is mixed and kneaded with rye or
flour, and baked into bread.  Oatmeal porridge, salt fish, and meat cut into
thin slices and dried in the sun, with _graf lax_, or smoked salmon, and
_rost lax_, broiled salmon, constitute the principal articles of food of the
people in the interior of Sweden.
(OED has 1935 for "gravlax"--ed.)

Pg. 101:  ..._permis de sejour_...
(OED has 1884 for "permis de sejour."  I didn't realize it was an antedate or
I would have copied more--ed.)

Pg. 137:  ...which is known to every native urchin by the singular name of
"belly-gutters."
(Going down the hill on a sledge.  "Belly-gutter" is not in OED.  MOA?--ed.)

Pg. 157:  The week before Lent, which is the Russian carnival, is called
_maslianitza_, or butter week, because the eating of meat is prohibited,
while butter is used as a substitute.
(OED has 1763, then 1923 for "butter week."  "Maslanitza" is mentioned in
that entry, but is not a separate entry?--ed.)

Pg. 277:  Another kind called, from its peculiar form, the ziegel, or brick
tea, consisting of cakes, was sold to the amount of six thousand boxes. (...)
 The Tartars boil it with milk, into a kind of soup.
(OED has 1827, then 1853 for "brick tea."  "Ziegel" is not recorded
there--ed.)

Pg. 284:  The sterlet-soup is considered the greatest of all the luxuries of
the Russian table.
(OED has 1860 for "sterlet soup'?--ed.)

Pg. 329:  The comestibles generally consist of black bread, a soup made of
cabbage called _tsche_, a lump of suspicious-looking meat called _roti_, and
eggs that are universally bad.

Pg. 335:  ...taking us for _Milords Ingles_...


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 14 05:26:09 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 01:26:09 EDT
Subject: Falafel, Petah, Khoumus (1949)
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.012609.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ISRAEL DIARY
by Bernard M. Bloomfield
New York: Crown Publishers
1950

Pg. 20 (March 31st, 1949):  ...I bought a bagel* from a street vendor, who
displayed a pile of them on a stick.
*Doughnut-shaped bread with poppyseed sprinkled on it.

Pg. 20 (March 31st, 1949):  From this evolved various types of settlements,
differing in social organization and methods of work.  The most common of
these are:
(Pg. 21--ed.)
_Kvutzah_--a collective agricultural settlement in which land, buildings, and
all basic property are owned jointly.  The economic principal is that of one
large family.
_Kibbutz_--a collective farm in which the economy is based on industry as
well as agriculture.  Members of the group share a common treasury and draw
from it in accordance with their needs.
_Moshav_--a small-holders' settlement in which families have individual homes
and land but operate co-operatively in working their fields, purchasing, and
marketing.

Pg. 56 (April 8th, 1949):  Then we called for Moshe Abrahami at his office,
and on to lunch atr an Oriental restaurant where we had shaslik, kebab, Arab
bread (petah), vegetables, fruit salad and Turkish coffee.
   In Israel one gets an interesting assortment of European and Oriental
dishes.  The restaurants get preference in supplies and variety, for they
have to cater to visitors.  For the housewife, it is a lot tougher.  SHe is
rationed and must queue up for things.  Arab foods are quite different from
the diet we are accustomed to.  They serve a preparation called _khoumus_,
made of seeds and oil, paprika and spices, and also _t'khina_, a sort of
paste of lima beans, spiced and flavored.
   These dishes are placed in the center of the table.  One eats of them by
dipping a piece of petah (about the size and shape of a large, flat, round
bun, or very thick pancake), scooping some up and then plopping it down one's
throat.  This goes on, rather animatedly (depending on how hungry you are and
also on how many at the table are taking swipes at it!) until it is all gone.
 Then the next course appears--shaslik and kebab.  Shaslik are little meat
balls grilled on a metal spit about ten inches long, holding five or six
pieces.  These are scraped off the spit, by one's fork or knife, onto the
plate and the spit put aside.  These little balls are good and hard--or that
is, the ones I tasted were, and I suppose there is a certain way of getting
them as hard as possible.
   Kebab is made of small hunks of meat (the Arabs eat mostly lamb), also
grilled on a spit.  Then there are usually vegetables (Pg. 57--ed.) like
shredded lettuce and spring onions--depending on what happens to be in season
and available.  After the meat course, the inevitable Turkish coffee in small
cups, perhaps some fruit salad, and the meal comes to an abrupt end.

Pg. 58 (April 8th, 1949):  I must make some notations on the falafel which,
to Israel, is what the hot dog is to us.  This creation is really something.
We first discovered falafel while waiting for a bus outside a little street
kiosk on a corner in Haifa.  An eager customer approached and stolidly
intoned a single word, "falafel."  Immediately the proprietor went to work
before our startled eyes.  He first took a round, flat petah bread, about six
inches in diameter.  This he deftly cut across in half.  Then taking one of
the halves he made a pocket by opening the sides.  Into this he inserted,
with a pair of tongs, several golden brown balls about the size of walnuts,
which had been fried in oil.  The balls were made of chopped vegetables,
meal, and garlic.  Over these he put chopped lettuce or cabbage and over this
a liquid sauce, something like mayonnaise in color.  We noticed at this point
that the customer, who was taking in each detail of preparation with a
practiced eye, nodded his head in approval at the liberality of the amount of
sauce.  Then, reaching under the counter, the boss took out a little bottle
of oil, or dripping of some sort, and added a few drops on the finished
article, with the deftness and aplomb of a Swiss chef placing a cherry on the
top of a cream pie.  A paper napkin was placed under the falafel and handed
over to the customer, whose salivary glands by this time were working
furiously.  In payment, 50 mills (15 cents) were handed over.
   I asked the boss what it was he had just made and he told me it was a
falafel.
   "But what is falafel?" I asked.
(Pg. 59--ed.)
   He smiled.  "Here, taste this."  He gave me one of the little fried balls
which he took up with his tongs.  I tasted it.  It was spicy and not
unpleasant but left me more or less gastronomically unmoved.
   "Do you sell a lot of falafels?" I asked.
   "Oh sure.  All day long."
   At this point, another stolid intonation was heard behind us.  "Falafel."
   The boss immediately went into his routine.  He had just gotten to the
point where the drops of oil were to be applied, when our bus arrived and we
dashed off.
   Louis and I drove along speculating on the falafel and its origin, having
nothing more pressing to occupy our minds.
   "How did it originate?" we wondered.  "How did they come by the particular
combination of putting little fried balls in a half bun?  What brain
conceived such a dish?"  And then, once having become aware of the falafel's
existence, we noticed how, on all sides and at all times of the day, they
were being consumed by all sections of the population.  It appears that the
great "secret" lies in the preparation of the little balls and each dispenser
of falafels keeps his formula a dark secret, passing it on to a trustworthy
son, prior to his last gasp on earth.
   One becomes aware of falafels, if there is one within a radius of fifty
feet, by its characteristic aroma.  They're like olives.  You have to
cultivate a taste for them and having once done so, you are an addict.
_Savory falafel_!  If only some enterprising outfit would really take it up,
standardize and glofiy it like the hot dog!  We visualized factories
springing up and dotting the land, all busy producing falafel balls and
falafel juice.  Just think, they could can and bottle them, pack them in
export cases and ship them all over the world!
   As our bus rolled along, our imaginations soared to even greater heights,
and the following ideas developed: (1) That the Government create a Ministry
of Falafelach.  (2) That a chair be endowed at the Hebrew University on
Falafelology.
(Pg. 60--ed.)
(3) That a company be incorporated under Israeli laws called "National
Falafel Corporation Ltd." for manufacture, idestribution, and promotion of
the falafel.  (4) That the Weizmann Institute at Rehovoth immediately turn
its best brains loose on the problem of synthesizing the falafel.  (5) That a
National Falafel Day be proclaimed in Israel, as a legal holiday, culminating
in the election of "Miss Falafel."
(Miss Falafel?  With balls??...OED has 1951 for "felafel"--ed.)

Pg. 108 (April 21st, 1949):  Avram and I again got to "l'chaiming"* each
other, and all and sundry, with brandies.
*Toasting.

Pg. 171 (May 9th, 1949):  We returned to Tel Aviv early and went for a stroll
along the sea wall.  Baruch told us that there is a new variation to V.I.P.
(very important person).  It is V.I.P.I. (very important person indeed!).


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 14 16:28:07 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:28:07 EDT
Subject: silly and off-topic
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.122807.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/13/02 10:28:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK writes:

>  >  what is the significance of an English boy turning his baseball cap
>  > around?  (Girls cannot do this.  Their ponytails stick out through the
>  > gap between the cloth and the adjustment band.)
>
>  What I don't understand is why you'd want to turn it around (or 'turn it
>  rouind', to talk like a local) if you're going to need to aim at something
>  and therefore keep the sun out of your eyes.  Oh, except that this is
>  England.  I'm wearing wool in the middle of June and it's been raining for
>  two weeks.  Ok, to keep the glare from the clouds out of your eyes.

The catcher on a baseball team wears a face mask---and you better believe he
needs it!---which covers the forehead and temples.  Hence he cannot wear a
cap with a bill facing towards the front.  No, he does not go bareheaded; he
wears his baseball cap turned around so that the bill is in the back.

Hence to an American it is perfectly natural to see a baseball cap worn
backwards---it is the recognition point of a catcher.

For some reason unknown to me (fashion?  political statement?) it is common
nowadays for African-Americans to wear baseball caps catcher-style, with the
bill to the back.

We now have two contradictory statements from England:

"'It's traditional Bash Street Kids, English schoolboy, turn your baseball
cap backwards and fire kind of thing,' said organiser Tom Wood."

implying that wearing baseball caps backwards is as English as Bashing Street
Kids,  and

"the redoubtable Prof. Trudgill went around
annoying us Yanks by asking:
Q: "What do you do to make a yank drop 50 degrees of intelligence?"
A: Turn his baseball cap around backwards."

implying that the English view wearing a hat backwards as a sign of stupidity.

       - Jim Landau


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Jun 14 16:33:59 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:33:59 +0100
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <d6.17db36fa.2a3b7397@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.173359.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Friday, June 14, 2002 12:28 pm +0000 "James A. Landau"
<JJJRLandau at AOL.COM> wrote:

> We now have two contradictory statements from England:
>
> "'It's traditional Bash Street Kids, English schoolboy, turn your baseball
> cap backwards and fire kind of thing,' said organiser Tom Wood."
>
> implying that wearing baseball caps backwards is as English as Bashing
> Street Kids,  and
>
> "the redoubtable Prof. Trudgill went around
> annoying us Yanks by asking:
> Q: "What do you do to make a yank drop 50 degrees of intelligence?"
> A: Turn his baseball cap around backwards."
>
> implying that the English view wearing a hat backwards as a sign of
> stupidity.
>
>        - Jim Landau


Perhaps this leads to the conclusion that partaking in pea-shooting
contests is a sign of English stupidity, and that's why they turn their
hats backward(s) for it.

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Jun 14 16:58:04 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:58:04 -0400
Subject: etymythology for "Indian"?
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.125804.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Having just been guilty of passing on one or possibly two apparent
etymythologies (Framingham), I would like to atone by seeking expert
opinions on what I suspect of being another. This was just posted to
rec.music.filk:
        >>>>>

    Being part Chippewa myself (mother's side), I want to toss in a gripe at
the Politically Correct term "native American".  The name "Indians" did
NOT -- as your schoolteachers glibly misinformed you -- come from Columbus
mistaking American for India.  When Columbus sailed, the country we now call
India was then called Hindustan: its people were called Hindustani, its
language Hindi, its religion Hindu.  Furthermore, enough merchants had been
there and back that the average educated European knew that the country had
great wealth and a technology only a little behind Europe's.  When Columbus
landed (on the island of Hispaniola), he took one look at these
Stone-Age-tech people -- who were friendly, simple, pious, and as naked as
Adam and Eve in the Garden -- and knew damn well that this was not
Hindustan.  He assumed that this was an outlying island, and Hindustan was
only a little further over the horizon.  As for what to call these people,
all he could come up with (in his bad Italian version of Spanish) was: "Una
gente in Dios" -- literally, "a people in God", or "a Godly people".  The
Spanish adventurers shorted the name to the last two words: In Dios.  To
this day, the Spanish word for them is "Indios".  'Twas later English
speakers who altered "Indios" to "Indians".  Frankly, there are a lot worse
things to be called that "the Godly people" -- and a PC term based on
historical ignorance is one of them.

        <<<<<

This sounds very suspicious to me, as if someone had noticed that
"indios" could be split as "in Dios" and decided that the name had to
have arisen that way. Of course, people who accept this sort of
"obvious" explanation are not likely to be be dissuaded by expert
opinion, but I'd like to try.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Fri Jun 14 17:01:31 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:01:31 +0100
Subject: silly and off-topic
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.180131.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> implying that wearing baseball caps backwards is as English as Bashing
Street
> Kids,  and

No. For all the on-going UK media excitement in re paedophilia, this is not
part of it. In case anyone was wondering, the reference is to the 'Bash
Street Kids.' They are, I suppose, something along the lines of the Huntz
Hall/Leo Grocey 'Bowery Boys. Created by cartoonist Leo Baxendale in the
Beano Comic in 1954. They remain a fixture of young British life/culture.

Jonathon Green


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 14 17:08:28 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:08:28 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <42492678.3233064839@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.130828.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:33 PM +0100 6/14/02, Lynne Murphy wrote:
>
>Perhaps this leads to the conclusion that partaking in pea-shooting
>contests is a sign of English stupidity, and that's why they turn their
>hats backward(s) for it.

Not to mention partaking in pee-shooting contests, for which one
should turn one's hat inside-out, at the least.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Jun 14 17:01:23 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:01:23 -0700
Subject: etymythology for "Indian"?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206141249120.1739848-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.100123.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is from an old George Carlin routine. A funny man, but a lousy
etymologist. It's a chestnut, been floating around the internet for eons.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Mark A Mandel
> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 9:58 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: etymythology for "Indian"?
>
>
> Having just been guilty of passing on one or possibly two apparent
> etymythologies (Framingham), I would like to atone by seeking expert
> opinions on what I suspect of being another. This was just posted to
> rec.music.filk:
>         >>>>>
>
>     Being part Chippewa myself (mother's side), I want to
> toss in a gripe at
> the Politically Correct term "native American".  The name
> "Indians" did
> NOT -- as your schoolteachers glibly misinformed you -- come
> from Columbus
> mistaking American for India.  When Columbus sailed, the
> country we now call
> India was then called Hindustan: its people were called
> Hindustani, its
> language Hindi, its religion Hindu.  Furthermore, enough
> merchants had been
> there and back that the average educated European knew that
> the country had
> great wealth and a technology only a little behind Europe's.
> When Columbus
> landed (on the island of Hispaniola), he took one look at these
> Stone-Age-tech people -- who were friendly, simple, pious,
> and as naked as
> Adam and Eve in the Garden -- and knew damn well that this was not
> Hindustan.  He assumed that this was an outlying island, and
> Hindustan was
> only a little further over the horizon.  As for what to call
> these people,
> all he could come up with (in his bad Italian version of
> Spanish) was: "Una
> gente in Dios" -- literally, "a people in God", or "a Godly
> people".  The
> Spanish adventurers shorted the name to the last two words:
> In Dios.  To
> this day, the Spanish word for them is "Indios".  'Twas later English
> speakers who altered "Indios" to "Indians".  Frankly, there
> are a lot worse
> things to be called that "the Godly people" -- and a PC term based on
> historical ignorance is one of them.
>
>         <<<<<
>
> This sounds very suspicious to me, as if someone had noticed that
> "indios" could be split as "in Dios" and decided that the name had to
> have arisen that way. Of course, people who accept this sort of
> "obvious" explanation are not likely to be be dissuaded by expert
> opinion, but I'd like to try.
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel
>


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 14 17:34:15 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:34:15 EDT
Subject: silly and off-topic
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.133415.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/14/02 1:07:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

> >Perhaps this leads to the conclusion that partaking in pea-shooting
>  >contests is a sign of English stupidity, and that's why they turn their
>  >hats backward(s) for it.
>
>  Not to mention partaking in pee-shooting contests

Now that establishes the connection with the wearing of baseball caps.  While
the caps themselves are unisex, there is an inescapible sexual dimorphism in
how they are worn.  A boy wears his over his hair, so that a simple arm
movement can move the bill from the front to the back.  However, as you
undoubtedly noticed the last time you watched Lynne put her baseball cap on
over her pony tail, a girl necessarily has to thread her pony tail through
the gap between the cloth in the back of the cap and the adjustment straps,
which means that she is no more capable of turning the cap around than she is
of partaking in a pee-shooting contest.

     - Jim Landau


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun 14 18:08:57 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:08:57 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <ab.1d76660e.2a3b8317@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.140857.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Charles Willeford, "Something about a Soldier" (Random House, 1986), pp. 97-8.


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 15 00:37:55 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 20:37:55 -0400
Subject: Bat Mitzvah (1921, 1949); Kosher (1620); Mellah
In-Reply-To: <95.1dc5da9c.2a36b531@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.203755.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James A. Landau wrote:
>In a message dated 06/10/2002 2:08:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:
>
> > BAT MITZVAH
> >
> >     OED has 1950.  Perhaps the online New York Times has something.
> >     A Google search shows that the first Bat Mitzvah was of Judith Kaplan,
> >  daughter of Reconstructionist leader Mordechai Kaplan, in 1921.  Judith
> >  Kaplan Eisenstein died in 1995.
>
>Back in 1998 I chased down Judith Kaplan's bat mitzvah.  While she has been
>cited in numerous books, not to mention Web sites, I was unable to determine
>the date of her bat mitzvah.  Most written sources I have seen give 1922, as
>do the majority of the Web sites I found on a Google search.  I have even
>found two specific dates for the event, one in March 1922 and one in May
>1922.

My aunt claims to have attended this bat mitzvah (unless I'm hallucinating
a conversation). She's certainly old enough (91 this month) that it's
possible. I don't know if they were the same age. I'll give her a call over
the weekend (much belated...)

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 15 08:06:37 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 04:06:37 EDT
Subject: Yemen Cuisine (1934, in German)
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.040637.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   There's not a whole lot available on the cuisine of Yemen, pre-1980.  I'm
interested in "falafel" "hummus," and other food items
   OED has about _zero_ of these terms.  "Yemen" itself results in only 62
OED hits in total..
   A web check turns up (OCF=in OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD):

ZHUG--Yemen spice mixture (many hits).   OCF
HELBA (or HILBA, HILBAH)--sauce made from various spices and herbs.  OCF
FUUL (or FUL)--beans, uncooked vegetables, oil.  OCF
SALUF--oven baked flat bread.
KHUBZ (or KHOBZ) TAWWA--ordinary bread, from wheat flour.  "Pita."  OCF
GEED--bull's or ram's penis.
FATTA(H)--bread mixed with bouillion, eggs, and spices or mixed with dates
and bananas.
KABSA--rice with lamb meat.
HANID--lamb meat cooked in a typical oven with spices.
AGDA(H)--lamb meat cooked with vegetables, tomato sauce and spices.
MARAQ--bouillion made from mutton or goat meat. OCF
SALTA(H)--traditional lunchtime dish, a highly spiced stew of lentils,
chickpeas, beans and coriander.  A national dish that must be in OED,
although it's not in OCF.
LAHUH--pancake made from sorghum.  OCF
BINT AL SAHN (or BENT ALSAHN)--sweet bread made from eggs. OCF
SHAFUUT (or SHAFUT, SHAFOOT)--bread with yoghurt, mint, spices and herbs.
"Green yogurt soup."
SHAY--sweet tea.
QISHR--ginger coffee.  OCF

   Other Yemen food hits seen on the web:

ASEED--listed as an "important food" of Yemen, but only one hit.
BESBAS--listed as an "omportant food" of Yemen, but only one hit.
MUDDABAQ--double pancake, inside roasted eggs, with tomatoes, herbs and
spices.
ZAHAWEG ARKARY--a spicy sauce made from fresh tomatoes, green peppers, and
spices.
ZAHAWEG JOBN--a spicy sauce made from fresh tomatoes, green peppers, and
spices and Yemeni goat cheese.
BURAIK--puff pastry stuffed with minced meat.
SABAYA--typical Yemeni bread covered with honey.
SHORBAT ADAS--lentil soup.
SHORBAT KHUDAR--vegetable soup.
SHORBAT BORR--barley soup.
SHURBA WASABI--lamb soup.
SHURBA BILSAN--lentil soup.
MARAG LAHM--meat soup.
MOHKBAZAT SAYD--fish cooked in typical oven with a spicy tomato sauce.
FATT MARAG--dry bread with meat soup.
FASUULIA--beans.
MUSHAKKAL--mixed vegetables.
AD(D)AS--lentils.
KUDAM (or KIDDAM)--ten different types of whole meal flour.
MELUUJ (or MELUUDJ)--wheat flour.
SHAEER--barley flour.
RUUMI--maiz flour.
KAFUA' BILSEN--lentils flour.
HARADHA--a mincemeat and pepper dish.


ETHNOLOGIE DER JEMENITSCHEN JUDEN
von ERICH BRAUER
Heidelberg 1934
Carl Winters Universitatsbuchhandlung
Kulturgeschictliche Bibliothek  7

Pg. 104:  Hilbah.
(Entry is on the entire page.  "Hilbah" or "helba" must be in OED--ed.)

Pg. 100:
      Gebacksorten der Jemeniten.
   gihin aus dira' mit hammirah im tannur ohen mahbazah gebacken.  Dick und
ziemlich gross.  Das typische Brot der Gabilis.  Nicht San'a.
   damul, besonders in den Dorfern gegessen.  Auf dem Boden des tannur
befinden sich runder Locher, in die man den Teig tut.  Daruber macht man ein
Feuer aus Holz und deckt den Ofen zu.  Man backt z. B. damul, wenn man den
Ofen zur Herstellung von Arak braucht.
   rus, grobes Brot aus Kleie.  S. 'Anaph chajjim S. 186.
   rugagah (rukakah) auf der solla' aus Weizen gebacken.  Dunner als Ihuh,
aber harter und ohne Locher, wird meistens warm mit samn gegessen.
   zalabijah, eine Kuchenart aus Weizenmehl.  Auf der solla' mit samn
gebacken.  Das fertige Geback wird oft noch mit samn bestricken unde
gezuckert.  S. 'Anaph chajjim S. 17b; Qadri-Kersten S. 44, 171: "Zilabija:
Feinmehl, Eier, Milch, Sesmol, Gulgulan."
   saluf, die Brotart der Jemeniten.  Der gesauerte Teig ist mit hilbah ohne
zhug vermischt und wird mit der Hand an die Wand des tannur geklebt.  Ein
ziemlich dickes, aber nicht hartes Brot (s. S. 98f.).  Gleich dem malug der
Dorfler.
   'ais, Bezeichnung der landichen Araber fur brot.
   fhug, mit der mahbazah an den tannur geklebt.  Gleich lugmah bil-mahbazah,
daher dunn, aber von den landjuden fhug genannt.
   fadir (fatir), das ungesauerte Brot.  Man sagt: saluf fadir, mtanna fadir.
   kudmah (pl. kudam), Brot nach europaischer Art.  Rund, gewolht, aber fast
hohl.  Aus Weizen im europaischen Ofen gebacken.
(Pg. 101--ed.)
   gurs (pl. akras) wird das im Hause gebackene Brot im Gegensatz zur kudmah
genannt.
   gurmah (pl. guram), Brot aus dira' mit Sauerteig ohne mahbazah gebacken;
dick und hart, kleiner als saluf.  Das gewohnliche Essen der Gabilis.
Landberg, Etud. II, S. 1041.  "Die guram schatzen sie mehr als den Koran";
Goitein, Jemenica.  Qadri-Kersten S. 43: Durafladen.  Vgl. die seltsamen
guram bei Glaser, Marib S. 10 f.
   gafu', gleich guram, aber in San'a gafu genannt.  Qadri-Kersten S. 44,
172: "Qafu: Weizenmehl, Butter, Eier; fur den Ramadan bestimmt."
   galub, wie zalabijah, aber dick und ohne samn.  Von den Juden auch himmus
genannt.
   ka'k, eine Kuchenart aus Weizen, Eiern und samn im tannur gebacken.  Oft
mit Kornern guhda (kuhta) bestreut.
   Ihuh, aus dira' auf der solla' gebacken (s.S.99).  Qadri-Kersten S. 44;
170: "Luhuh: Auch dieses ist aus Dura-mehl hargestellt, dabei aber in Wasser
gebruht."
   lugmah (lukmah), allgemeiner Ausdruck der Juden fur Brot.  Die Araber
sagen in der Stadt hubz, auf dem Lande 'ais.  Vgl. Goitein, Lesonenu III. S.
357.
   mtanna', wie saluf, aber ohne Zutat von hilbah aus Weizen oder haufiger
aus Gerste gebacken.  Bevor man der Teig an die Ofenwand klebt, wird er mit
Mehl bestreut, damit er nicht anklebt und harter durchgebacken werden kann.
   mahlug, saluf der Dorfler und Araber.  Qadri-Kersten S. 43: "mahlug: aus
Weizen oder Dura hergestellter Fladen.  Wenn er gut gebacken wird, ist der
aus Weizen (gemachte) knusperig und weiss."
   nadulah (natulah).  Fallt vom Teig ein Stuck beim Backen in das Feuer, so
heisst der gebackene Teig nadulah.  Die Frauen holen ihn mit der Zange heraus
und essen ihn.
   himmus oder hummus wird von den Juden im Maghrib das gelub gennant.  Das
Wort stammt angeblich von dem Anfang der Benediktion uder Brot "hamosi..."*
-------------------------------
   *ha-mosi' lechem min ha-ares..., der das Brot aus der Erde hervorbringt.

(Pg. 102--ed.)
Da es im Maghrib keinen Weizen, sondern nur Durrha gibt und man uber
Durrhageback keine Benediktion sagen kann, so bringt man zu diesem Zweck
Weizen aus der Gegend von San'a dorthin: (Nach freundlicher Mitteilung von
Dr. Goitein.)

(On a quick glance I thought this last item was "hummus" (ground chick-peas),
but perhaps not--ed.)


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 15 18:31:33 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:31:33 EDT
Subject: Computer proverbs for Fred Shapiro
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.143133.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From Andrew S. Tanenbaum and Maarten van Steen _Distributed Systems:
Principles and Paradigms_ Upper Saddle River, NJ USA:Prentice-Hall, 2002,
ISBN 0-13-088893-1
page 1, referring to computers
"From a machine that cost 100 million dollars and executed 1 instruction per
second, we have come to machines that cost 1000 dollars and are able to
execute 10 million instructions per second, a price/performance gain of
10^12.  If cars had imporved at this rate in the same time period, a Rolls
Royce would now cost 1 dollar and get a billion miles per gallon."

I have seen variations of this proverb (?) several times, so I think it safe
to declare it a folk saying.  This version has the advantage that the authors
have actually done his math (working backwards from the 10 to the 12th
improvement, we find his initial Rolls Royce cost 10,000 dollars and got 10
miles to the gallon, i.e. an improvement of 10^8 in milage and 10^4 in price.)

The authors then add an original comment of their own:" (Unfortunately, it
would probably also have a 200-page manual telling how to open the door.)"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------

If it's there and you can see it, it's REAL
If it's not there and you can see it, it's VIRTUAL
If it's there and you can't see it, it's TRANSPARENT
If it's not there and you can't see it, it's DELETED

The above I have only seen once, in the summer of 1984 (an office-mate who
was trying out a fancy plotter ran off copies in your choice of typeface,
including Greek), so I don't know if it's a one-shot or a folk saying.

      - Jim Landau


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 15 19:33:43 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:33:43 EDT
Subject: etymythology for "Indian"?
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.153343.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, hmmm, <in> is not really a Spanish word, is it? Of course, one finds
{in-} used as a negative prefix in many Spanish words. Maybe Columbus decided
that the indigenous peoples were ungodly?


In a message dated 6/14/2002 12:58:24 PM, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes:

<< Having just been guilty of passing on one or possibly two apparent
etymythologies (Framingham), I would like to atone by seeking expert
opinions on what I suspect of being another. This was just posted to
rec.music.filk:
        >>>>>

    Being part Chippewa myself (mother's side), I want to toss in a gripe at
the Politically Correct term "native American".  The name "Indians" did
NOT -- as your schoolteachers glibly misinformed you -- come from Columbus
mistaking American for India.  When Columbus sailed, the country we now call
India was then called Hindustan: its people were called Hindustani, its
language Hindi, its religion Hindu.  Furthermore, enough merchants had been
there and back that the average educated European knew that the country had
great wealth and a technology only a little behind Europe's.  When Columbus
landed (on the island of Hispaniola), he took one look at these
Stone-Age-tech people -- who were friendly, simple, pious, and as naked as
Adam and Eve in the Garden -- and knew damn well that this was not
Hindustan.  He assumed that this was an outlying island, and Hindustan was
only a little further over the horizon.  As for what to call these people,
all he could come up with (in his bad Italian version of Spanish) was: "Una
gente in Dios" -- literally, "a people in God", or "a Godly people".  The
Spanish adventurers shorted the name to the last two words: In Dios.  To
this day, the Spanish word for them is "Indios".  'Twas later English
speakers who altered "Indios" to "Indians".  Frankly, there are a lot worse
things to be called that "the Godly people" -- and a PC term based on
historical ignorance is one of them.

        <<<<<

This sounds very suspicious to me, as if someone had noticed that
"indios" could be split as "in Dios" and decided that the name had to
have arisen that way. Of course, people who accept this sort of
"obvious" explanation are not likely to be be dissuaded by expert
opinion, but I'd like to try.

-- Mark A. Mandel >>


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun 15 19:39:44 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:39:44 -0400
Subject: Why
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.153944.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What is the origin of the interjection "why", as in "Why, you little
rascal!", "Why, I'll be damned!", etc.?

I just now realized that the pronunciation is different (in my background)
from the interrogative "why" -- i.e., I would pronounce "why" in "Why me?"
as /hwai/ but "why" in "Why, I'll be!" as /wai/ ... and surely at least
many of my family and childhood friends would have done the same. Just a
local peculiarity? Or a personal misconception?

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun 15 20:10:01 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 16:10:01 -0400
Subject: etymythology for "Indian"?
In-Reply-To: <15e.f44cdb3.2a3cf097@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.161001.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Well, hmmm, <in> is not really a Spanish word, is it?

Right to the point. (Of course "in" is the Italian cognate, and Colombo was
an Italian, right?)

Here is a discussion: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mgenteindios.html

Note that "Indus" = "Indian" (i.e., "[person] of India") in Latin (used by
Virgil and Ovid, according to the book), and "Indianus" = "Indian" also
existed. The southern astronomical constellation Indus ("the Indian",
referring to Amerinds apparently) was apparently invented around 1595. (SF
aficionados will recognize epsilon Indi as one of the candidate stars for
early extrasolar colonies etc. [only ~12 light-years away!])

-- Doug Wilson


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 15 20:44:10 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 16:44:10 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020615153037.045fa200@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.164410.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Nope, widepread among the few surviving wh/w distinguishers. I have
>the same rule.

dInIs

>What is the origin of the interjection "why", as in "Why, you little
>rascal!", "Why, I'll be damned!", etc.?
>
>I just now realized that the pronunciation is different (in my background)
>from the interrogative "why" -- i.e., I would pronounce "why" in "Why me?"
>as /hwai/ but "why" in "Why, I'll be!" as /wai/ ... and surely at least
>many of my family and childhood friends would have done the same. Just a
>local peculiarity? Or a personal misconception?
>
>-- Doug Wilson

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Sat Jun 15 20:51:37 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 16:51:37 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020615153037.045fa200@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.165137.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I say /hwai/ for both uses.  I am a native of Atlanta born in 1937 and
raised in Georgia until I was 18.

--Charles Wells

>What is the origin of the interjection "why", as in "Why, you little
>rascal!", "Why, I'll be damned!", etc.?
>
>I just now realized that the pronunciation is different (in my background)
>from the interrogative "why" -- i.e., I would pronounce "why" in "Why me?"
>as /hwai/ but "why" in "Why, I'll be!" as /wai/ ... and surely at least
>many of my family and childhood friends would have done the same. Just a
>local peculiarity? Or a personal misconception?
>
>-- Doug Wilson



Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 15 22:54:52 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 18:54:52 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20020615165027.00b6f7e0@mail.oberlin.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.185452.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Charles,

You are the first southerner (who apparently had the hw/w
distinction) who has reported this in my experience (and I have been
citing this /hw/ for why? /w/ for why! for some time). Unless I get
more testimonials, I fear I will have to consider it an idiosyncrasy
(no shame to you or yours I hope).

dInIs



>I say /hwai/ for both uses.  I am a native of Atlanta born in 1937 and
>raised in Georgia until I was 18.
>
>--Charles Wells
>
>>What is the origin of the interjection "why", as in "Why, you little
>>rascal!", "Why, I'll be damned!", etc.?
>>
>>I just now realized that the pronunciation is different (in my background)
>>from the interrogative "why" -- i.e., I would pronounce "why" in "Why me?"
>>as /hwai/ but "why" in "Why, I'll be!" as /wai/ ... and surely at least
>>many of my family and childhood friends would have done the same. Just a
>>local peculiarity? Or a personal misconception?
>>
>>-- Doug Wilson
>
>
>
>Charles Wells
>professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
>personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
>genealogical website:
>http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
>NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 15 23:59:46 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 19:59:46 EDT
Subject: Nash, Beigel, and the Goldbergs (1931)
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.195946.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE RISE OF THE GOLDBERGS
by Gertrude Berg
New York:  Barse and Company
1931

   "The Goldbergs" went on the air on NBC radio on November 20, 1929.  It was
very popular, and this is the book version.  There is no glossary, but the
words are explained in footnotes.
   I don't know if OED is going to add "nash" or "naschen" or "nosh," but we
gotta help the poor John Marianis of the world avoid a 1956 nosh date.

Pg. 23:  "You're a piano player like I'm a _shammes_."*
*Caretaker in a synagogue.

Pg. 25:  "Vhen de _latkes_* get cold dey ain't got no taste."
*Potato pancakes.

Pg. 42:  They'll be no more of that soup and _gefilte fish_* and _Peseach
matzos_.**
 *Stuffed fish.
**Passover matzos.

Pg. 45:  "Jake, Sammy, nu?  I'm giving to de table ulleready!"

Pg. 47:  "_Gedempfte brust_*, dat's your favorite supper!"
*Pot roast.

Pg. 48:  So he hired a _schlemihl_*...
*A dumbbell; a poor fish (slang).

Pg. 50:  "Gee, ma, you make chop suey out of Webster's dictionary!"

Pg. 73:  ...wearing his _yarmulka_*...
*Skull cap.

Pg. 103:  ..._gesund_*...
*Blessing.

Pg. 105:  "Blintzes,"* guessed Rosie.
*Filled pancakes.

Pg. 117:  "You'll get maybe two but you shouldn't _nash_* from de bag on de
vay home."
*Nibble; sample.

Pg. 128:  "I got a half chicken and some lovely _strudle_* in de ice box."
*Cake.

Pg. 138:  "Ulleright, Joe, good-bye--'_sei gesund_'."*
*Keep well; take care of yourself.

Pg. 138:  "I'm nothing but a _schmuser_*--a bit mout he said--right in front
of my face."
*Big mouth; flatterer.

Pg. 142:  "Home again!  Vhen you go avay a copple of hours and come back, it
looks _eppes_* so nice in de house."
*Something so nice; a treat.

Pg. 144:  "Oy, oy, oy! mine _kugel_* is burnt," she wailed.
*Pudding.

Pg. 153:  "Mr. Tobias, a cup tea maybe, ha?  Some _kuchelach_?"*
*Goulash.

Pg. 156:  "Please don't be a shadchente," Mollie!"
*Matchmaker.

Pg. 157:  "I tink vhat maybe vill be a _shiddach_!"*
*Match.

Pg. 193:  "I'm not hungry, but I could _nash_ someting."
   "Maybe a piece of sveet and sour fish, ha?"

Pg. 195:  "Everyting vould be ulleright if that Mendel vas only a _mensch_,"*
sighed Jake, finishing his fish.
*Human.

Pg. 203:  ..._shul_*...
*Synagogue.

Pg. 204:  ..._simcha_*...
*Party; celebration.

Pg. 224:  "Oy, a _beigel_?"* laughed Mollie.
*A roll with a hole in it.

Pg. 243:  "I bet she didn't _fargined_* herself to eat an egg for breakfast
for monts so she could save up to buy Sammy a present.
*Denied; scrimped.


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Sun Jun 16 00:54:24 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:54:24 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b9317577275e@[35.12.20.234]>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.205424.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The usage of "why" as in "Why, I'll be" feels to me to be something I
learned later in life, maybe even from books.  That might be why I don't
make the distinction.

--Charles

>Charles,
>
>You are the first southerner (who apparently had the hw/w
>distinction) who has reported this in my experience (and I have been
>citing this /hw/ for why? /w/ for why! for some time). Unless I get
>more testimonials, I fear I will have to consider it an idiosyncrasy
>(no shame to you or yours I hope).
>
>dInIs
>
>
>
>>I say /hwai/ for both uses.  I am a native of Atlanta born in 1937 and
>>raised in Georgia until I was 18.
>>
>>--Charles Wells
>>
>>>What is the origin of the interjection "why", as in "Why, you little
>>>rascal!", "Why, I'll be damned!", etc.?
>>>
>>>I just now realized that the pronunciation is different (in my background)
>>>from the interrogative "why" -- i.e., I would pronounce "why" in "Why me?"
>>>as /hwai/ but "why" in "Why, I'll be!" as /wai/ ... and surely at least
>>>many of my family and childhood friends would have done the same. Just a
>>>local peculiarity? Or a personal misconception?
>>>
>>>-- Doug Wilson
>>
>>
>>
>>Charles Wells
>>professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
>>personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
>>genealogical website:
>>http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
>>NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>740 Wells Hall A
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>Office - (517) 353-0740
>Fax - (517) 432-2736



Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 16 01:39:04 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 21:39:04 EDT
Subject: Kebutzah (1926); Schmooze (1902); Ich gebibble (1915)
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.213904.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

KEBUTZAH

THE JEWISH NATIONAL HOME
by Isaac Breuer
Francfort-on-the-Maine: J. Kauffmann
1926

Pg. 37:  The simplest peasant of any Kebutzah, tilling the ground by the
sweat of his brow, appeared to them worthier than the prophet Jeremiah, whose
word re-echoes through the centuries.

Pg. 38:  But the Kebutzah recognized neither God nor the Torah, and the
tender flame was soon crushed out by hard work.

(OED has 1931 for "kibbutz."  The JERUSALEM NEWS, 1919-1920, is in the annex,
and I'll get it on Tuesday and check for this and other terms...I went
through a lot of Jewish National Fund publications without finding an earlier
"kibbutz"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
SCHMOOZE

NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK:  A STORY OF JEWISH SOCIAL LIFE
by Violet Guttenberg
London: Chatto & Windus
1902

   OED has an 1897 "schmoos," but the next citations are 1921 and 1939.

Pg. 6:  When these girls get _chosanim_*...
*Bridegrooms.

Pg. 37:  ...most _goyeshka_* fellows...
*Gentile.

Pg. 40:  ..._kosher_* food...
*Ritually clean.

Pg. 49:  ..._Yomtovim_*...
*Jewish holydays.

Pg. 51:  ..._Yiddishkeit_*...
*Pertaining to Judaism.

Pg. 52:  ..._bar mitzvah_*...
*Confirmation.

Pg. 60:  ...with either Dinah of Victor to act as "gooseberry."

Pg. 63:  ..._Yom Kippur_*...
*Day of Atonement.

Pg. 65:  ..._yomtovdic_* clothes...
*Festive.

Pg. 78:  ...mazzletov_*...
*Congratulation.

Pg. 116:  ...a nice chosan* for you...
*Bridegroom.

Pg. 145:  ..._shabbos_*..._geld_*...
*Sabbath.
**Money.

Pg. 154:  ...poor Yidden* there...
*Jews.

Pg. 154:  Dinah had grown into a very stylish girl, with plenty of what her
mother called _chein_.*
*Smart wit.

Pg. 167:  He was what they call "game for anything," so full of activity, so
humorous in his ways...

Pg. 192:  He would sit _shiva_*...
*Mourning.

Pg. 200: "_M'shumador_!"* she exclaimed laconically...
*Converted Jewess.

Pg. 208:  ..._Shabbos_*..._Yomtov_**...
*Sabbath.
**Holy-days.

Pg. 211:  Here they could chat, or _schmooze_,* as they called it, to their
heart's content.
*Converse with familiarity.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
ICH GEBIBBLE

LAPIDOWITZ THE SCHNORRER
by Bruno Lessing
New York: Hearst's International Library Co.
1915

   The RHHDAS H-O has a TAD 1913 spelling similar to this, then 1915.  It is
the last line of this book.

Pg. 50:  "Are you _meshuga_ (crazy)?"

Pg. 348:  "Ich gebibble," he chuckled.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 16 08:40:44 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 04:40:44 EDT
Subject: Coffee Shop (1831) and Turkish Sayings
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.044044.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CONSTANTINOPLE AND ITS ENVIRONS.
IN A SERIES OF LETTERS, EXHIBITING THE ACTUAL STATE OF THE MANNERS, CUSTOMS,
AND HABITS OF THE TURKS, ARMENIANS, JEWS, AND GREEKS, AS MODIFIED BY THE
POLICY OF SULTAN MAHMOUD
by An American
(Commodore David Porter--ed.)
in two volumes
New-York: Harper & Brothers
1835

   I went through this book quickly and didn't see "Turkish Delight."
However, there were two nice pages of "Turkish sayings" that perhaps are of
interest to Fred Shapiro--and are perhaps not Turkish?

VOLUME ONE
Pg. 65 (Nov. 7, 1831):  On arriving at the summit you find, as you find in
every pleasant place, a coffee shop, a kiosk, rather small, but very neat,
belonging to the Grand Seignor, a small mosque, and you discover one of the
finest views in the world.
(OED has 1838 for "coffee shop," from Dickens.  Merriam-Webster has 1836 for
"coffee shop"--ed.)

Pg. 65:  ...they call it spending a day of _keff_, that is, a jollification.
("Keff" is here many times, but there is no OED hit--ed.)

Pg. 76:  I have, God knows, (Pg. 77--ed.) diplomancy enough around and about
me--ceremonious visits to receive and return with the minister, more than I
can "shake a stick at," but what are they compared to a single friend, a
glass, and a cigar.
(OED has 1818, then 1843 for "shake a stick at"--ed.)

Pg. 102:  ..._Bacsth Tasch_...
(The way this book spells "backshish"--ed.)

Pg. 124:  ...kabobs (lumps of mutton)...

Pg. 160:  P. S.  I cannot conclude, without giving you a few Turkish sayings:
   "Love those who love you even if they are poor, but do not love him who
does not love you, even were it the king.
   "He who loves me I am his slave, and he who hates me, I would wish to be
his sovereign.
   "In saying honey! honey! the mouth cannot be sweetened.
   "The fruit tree is always liable to be stoned.
   "Associate (or be friends) with the devil, until you are safe over the
bridge.
   "There is no rose without thorns.
   "A little fowl is always a chicken.
   "Love and a cough cannot remain long undiscovered.
(This is an exact quotation of George Herbert.  He was Turkish?-ed.)
   "With patience ver-juice becomes sweet, and the leaves of the mulberry
become silk.
   "He who watches the kettle, will, without doubt, have a part of the soup.
(Pg. 161--ed.)
   "Every pleasure has its pain, every tear has its smile.
   "After the overturn of your coach, there are multitudes ready to point out
a better road.
   "Sweet words draw serpents from their nests, and bad language destroys
confidence.
   "Beauty is not _itself_ beauty--beauty is that which pleases _you_.
   "The man in love with himself, thinks the rest of the world blind.
   "Love is a torture that is only known to those who have felt it.
   "The man who keeps his face to the ground, can never have his nose pulled.
   "The gout and religion, are two things which do not admit of dispute.
   "He who falls on purpose should never cry.
   "If you are polite, you will permit the rose to shed its odours, if rude
and rustic, you will enter the garden to destroy it.
   "Beware of the crow lest he pick your eyes out.
   "Pay no attention to the tears of sore eyes.
   "It is a shame to those who ask, but a double shame to those who refuse.
   "He who gives too much, gives for ostentation, he who gives little, gives
it from the heart.
   "However much you may desire to succeed in an affair, no more can be done
than is destined.
   "A witty enemy is preferable to a foolish friend."

Pg. 274:  They act up to the Spanish proverb that, "by gaining time,
something is gained."

Pgg. 277:  Fourthly, a vessel containing _Kaimar_, heretofore described.
(...)  The bread was the vehicle which conveyed the _kaimac_ to the mouth,
and the fingers those of the salad, fritters, &c.
("Kaimar" and "kaimac" are not in the OED?--ed.)

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 12:  It is not usual for them to take off their "yackmacks"...
(OED has 1844 for "yashmack"--ed.)

Pg. 59:  They are, when done, served up in their own gravy, or in _kaymar_,
which is cream.  There is also served up with them, a soft, flat kind of
bread, or pancake, which, as no knives or forks are made use of, suits
admirably as a means of conveying the _kibabs_ and the _kaymar_ to the mouth,
whence they soon find their way into the stomach.  The bread is called _Firna
Pidese_.
(OED doesn't have "kaymar" or "Firna Pidese," either--ed.)


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 16 12:35:57 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 08:35:57 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20020615205237.00b6ed60@mail.oberlin.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.083557.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>AHA! Your nonvernacular has rared up and bit you!

dInIs

>The usage of "why" as in "Why, I'll be" feels to me to be something I
>learned later in life, maybe even from books.  That might be why I don't
>make the distinction.
>
>--Charles
>
>>Charles,
>>
>>You are the first southerner (who apparently had the hw/w
>>distinction) who has reported this in my experience (and I have been
>>citing this /hw/ for why? /w/ for why! for some time). Unless I get
>>more testimonials, I fear I will have to consider it an idiosyncrasy
>>(no shame to you or yours I hope).
>>
>>dInIs
>>
>>
>>
>>>I say /hwai/ for both uses.  I am a native of Atlanta born in 1937 and
>>>raised in Georgia until I was 18.
>>>
>>>--Charles Wells
>>>
>>>>What is the origin of the interjection "why", as in "Why, you little
>>>>rascal!", "Why, I'll be damned!", etc.?
>>>>
>>>>I just now realized that the pronunciation is different (in my background)
>>>>from the interrogative "why" -- i.e., I would pronounce "why" in "Why me?"
>>>>as /hwai/ but "why" in "Why, I'll be!" as /wai/ ... and surely at least
>>>>many of my family and childhood friends would have done the same. Just a
>>>>local peculiarity? Or a personal misconception?
>>>>
>>>>-- Doug Wilson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Charles Wells
>>>professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
>>>personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
>>>genealogical website:
>>>http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
>>>NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm
>>
>>--
>>Dennis R. Preston
>>Professor of Linguistics
>>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>>740 Wells Hall A
>>Michigan State University
>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>>Office - (517) 353-0740
>>Fax - (517) 432-2736
>
>
>
>Charles Wells
>professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
>personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
>genealogical website:
>http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
>NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 16 15:40:07 2002
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 08:40:07 -0700
Subject: Why
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.084007.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInIs, about interrogative WHY (voiceless initial) vs. exclamatory WHY
(voiced initial):
 >widepread among the few surviving wh/w distinguishers. I have
 >the same rule.

this comes up every few years.  i have the same distinction, and
have observed it in many other wh/w distinguishers.

i believe that, for me, WHOA and exclamatory WHY are the only
words spelled with initial <wh> that have only voiced initials.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sun Jun 16 16:27:57 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 12:27:57 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <200206161540.g5GFe7618867@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.122757.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) writes:

>dInIs, about interrogative WHY (voiceless initial) vs. exclamatory WHY
>(voiced initial):
> >widepread among the few surviving wh/w distinguishers. I have
> >the same rule.
>
>this comes up every few years.  i have the same distinction, and
>have observed it in many other wh/w distinguishers.
>
>i believe that, for me, WHOA and exclamatory WHY are the only
>words spelled with initial <wh> that have only voiced initials.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
~~~~~~~
...and then there's the Flanders & Swann song, "I'm a Gnu"  with the
line:"You really ought to k at -now  w at -ho's w at -ho."
A. Murie


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 16 17:10:48 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:10:48 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <200206161540.g5GFe7618867@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.131048.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

arnold,

Instrospection throughout the entire range shows I have /worf/ for
both "wharf" (for boats) and "Whorf" (for Benjamin Lee).

My old Webtser's New World does indeed show "wharf" with /hw/. Hwat a surprise!

dInIs



>dInIs, about interrogative WHY (voiceless initial) vs. exclamatory WHY
>(voiced initial):
>  >widepread among the few surviving wh/w distinguishers. I have
>  >the same rule.
>
>this comes up every few years.  i have the same distinction, and
>have observed it in many other wh/w distinguishers.
>
>i believe that, for me, WHOA and exclamatory WHY are the only
>words spelled with initial <wh> that have only voiced initials.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 16 19:50:46 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:50:46 -0400
Subject: Hot Dog; Off Topic: Parking Violations "Policy Change"
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.155046.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Today, in the CITY section of the 6-16-2002 Sunday NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 7, col. 1, is an article about "LA LUPE WAY."  La Lupe, the singer famous in the 1960s and 1970s, lived on that stretch of East 140th Street from 1986-1992.  The past and present borough presidents of the Bronx were in attendance.
   When I wrote to the borough president...
   A little "irony" posting today, mostly off topic.

---------------------------------------------------------------
HOT DOG

   "Hot dog" is wrong, again, this time in the YORK DAILY RECORD, available on the Dow Jones news database, 6-8-2002, "Well, hot dog, what do you know?"
   The newspaper couldn't even get the wrong information right:

   His name was Thomas A. Morgan, who signed his cartoons "Tad."

---------------------------------------------------------------
OFF TOPIC: PARKING VIOLATIONS "POLICY CHANGE"

   On Friday, through the judge grapevine, I was told of a "Parking Violations Policy Change."  I copied the 6-7-2002 memo--which I still haven't received in the mail.  I have not been told of this "policy change" by any Parking official, and I haven't seen it posted anywhere in the help centers.
   It looks like any other memo.  It could be about any boring thing we receive--like the issuance of "Birthplace of Baseball" license plates.  But actually, it has to do with how we handle fundamental due process.  I've explained parts of this here before (and off-list to Dave Wilton), but here's the story.
   Judges always ask for a vehicle registration, and had dismissed tickets upon knowledge of material defects.  Wrong make, wrong plate type, no date.  Dismissed automatically.  (A simple computer program could also do this, but it's not a priority.)
   One consumer-oriented legislator put this into law in 1995.  If there's a defect and it's raised, the ticket is dismissed.
   Later in 1995, at a judge meeting, judges were "instructed" by the agency (not our employers, by the way; we're "independent contractors" who get no benefits) that the dismissals are no longer automatic.  The law says "if raised."  People who get tickets--many who speak Spanish or other languages--must _specifically_ raise a defect under Vehicle and Traffic Law section 238 subdivision 2-a (b).
   Hey, good luck with that.
   Soon after that, when my work was reviewed, I was told that I didn't write enough on a dismissal.  I had to specifically write if the respondent had raised the issue, or if I raised it myself because I considered the ticket really, really bad anyway.  And I said, hey, let's get real, THIS TICKET HAS NO DATE!  How much do you want me to write?  If the person doesn't notice it, we enforce it????
   Several times in the past year, a particular senior judge warned me about dismissing too many legally defective tickets.
   From the memo:

"The Department's prior application of the statute may have resulted in different outcomes depending on whether the respondent was experienced in the adjudication process..."

   No kidding.
   Obviously, this was done under pressure--what pressure, I don't know.  As usual, the officials who knowingly misapplied the law and told us to take unfair advantage of society's weakest people will not be disbarred or punished in any way.
   This should be a scandal.  But this is New York City.  It won't be reported at all.  The local tv news will do promos for "Scooby Doo."  The print news will tell us about Jennifer Lopez's love life.  And both will do cute stories about pets.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 16 21:11:07 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 17:11:07 -0400
Subject: Hot Dog; Off Topic: Parking Violations "Policy Change"
In-Reply-To: <3F4FD61D.25DFA243.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.171107.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>HOT DOG
>
>    "Hot dog" is wrong, again, this time in the YORK DAILY RECORD,
>available on the Dow Jones news database, 6-8-2002, "Well, hot dog,
>what do you know?"
>    The newspaper couldn't even get the wrong information right:
>
>    His name was Thomas A. Morgan, who signed his cartoons "Tad."
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------
well, maybe that represents progress.  Next story we can look forward to...

"His name was John J. Fitz Gerald, who signed his cartoons 'Tad'."

larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 17 03:45:02 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 23:45:02 -0400
Subject: Johnny Pump (1934)
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.234502.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CALL IT SLEEP
by Henry Roth
The Noonday Press, Farrar, Straus and Giroux
1991, eleventh printing 1996
(Originally published in 1934)

   This is a great book, and Lighter used it extensively in the RHHDAS.  He could have cited even more.
   DARE has "johnny pump" from 1985, citing New York City speech.  I hear it quite often in my job.  Antedating the term fifty years doesn't score you any points.  (Nothing does.)
   Not much for food terms, but you can't have everything.

Pg. 37:  "You'd better go in and 'pee' first," he advised, smiling.  "How does your mother say it?"
   "She says numbuh one."
(RHHDAS has this--ed.)

Pg. 87:  They marched cross the street in single file and stopped before a tall hydrant.
   "Jump on Johnny Pump!" commanded Sidney leaping up on the two stumpy arms of the fire-plug.
(FYI:  Parking within fifteen feet of a fire hydrant is a $55 fine.  The city is facing a budget crisis, and that fine will probably go up very soon--ed.)

Pg. 151:  "How long is it since you shit on the ocean?"
   "Chops like those," he glowered warningly, "deserve to drop off."

Pg. 160:  "Kockin," as David had learned long ago, was a Yiddish word meaning to sit on the toilet.

Pg. 231:  Shit, pee, fuckenbestit--Stop!

Pg. 249:  "Dot's a lodda bullshit, Pedey."

Pg. 251:  "Aw, hosschit."

Pg. 251:  "Peugh!  Wadda stink!"
(What will the next HDAS have for P.U.?--ed.)

Pg. 252:  "Lemme lay putso."

Pg. 272:  "Mor'n' a zillion rubbuh ben's he had on id, and id wouldn't even go high like dis cellah."
(Is this the M-W 1934 "zillion"?--ed.)

Pg. 281:  "Waddaye shittin' about?" ... "An de nex' time watch out who de fuck yer chas--"

Pg. 291:  "Betcha million dollehs dey're all on Evenyeh D."
(Everyone in 1934 was betting a million dollars on something--ed.)

Pg. 294:  "Big bush under duh belly!"  ..."Fat ass, we seen!  Big--Wuh!  Wadda kinerry!  Wee!  An' duh hull knish!  All de hairs!"
(Not a reference to President George W. Bush--ed.)

Pg. 309:  "Not like my two wenches, sluggish turds!"

Pg. 313:  "Mind yuh own beeswax!"
(RHHDAS first cite for this--ed.)

Pg. 320:  "An' I et ev'y kind o' bread dey is." Leo continued proudly.  "Aitalian bread-sticks, Dutch pummernickel, Jew rye--even watchuh call 'em, matziz--matches--"  He snickered.  "Dey're nuttin but big crackers--D'ja ever eat real spigeddi?"
   "No, wod's dat?"
   "De wops eat it just like pitaters.  An' boy ain' it good!"

Pg. 361:  "Cantchuh see, cock-eye Mulligan?"

Pg. 364:  "Fight!  Fight!  Gib'm, haws-fly!  In de kishkis--nudder one!"

Pg. 371-372:  Fuhgimbestit, it's him!"

Pg. 377:  WISH I had a potsee, a potsee.

Pg. 413:  "A putz!"

Pg. 416:  "Dintcha ever hear o' the Spanish Fly--"

Pg. 422:  "Shit!"


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 17 04:50:14 2002
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 21:50:14 -0700
Subject: Why
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.215014.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

sagehen adds WHO to WHOA and exclamatory WHY.  but WHO(M)/WHOSE
all have initial h, not w, so they're not involved in the
relationships we've been talking about.


dInIs adds (for him) WHORF and WHARF.  both of these can have
initial voiceless consonants for me.  but i'd certainly expect
plenty of words to have moved into the voiced-only set for
other speakers; after all, i have voiced initials as possible
variants for all the voiceless-initial words.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 17 11:47:33 2002
From: stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM (s. . .)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 04:47:33 -0700
Subject: Help!
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.044733.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear all, I would like to know if there is an
expression in English to wish a colleague or friend
"a good working day" (meaning "work well").

Also, can you think of any way to say "if you knew
poverty..." or "if you were poorer...," which comment
would be directed to people who seem to take material
comforts for granted, are never thankful for what they
have and are therefore "blas�." Thanks!

P. Lombardo

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Jun 17 12:17:21 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:17:21 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <200206170450.g5H4oEk23910@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.081721.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

arnold,

dInIs also notes that "wharf" and "Whorf" are pretty clearly words
learned after his vernacular was well-entrenched, and he probably
first heard these words pronounced by flatlander conflaters.

This qausi-developmental phoneme classification is clearest in my
speech as regards the cot-caught distinction (which I have
well-preserved) when it comes to classifying those two phonemes,
especially before /g/. All my childhood words (fog, hog, dog, frog,
log, etc...) have the vowel of "caught"; later-learned words are
often invariably that of "cot": togs, cog, clog, bog, jog, etc... . I
seem to have learned metaphoric (verbal) "bog" before the literal
noun. Therefore, I have a variable "bog down" (=become mired in) with
both vowels - but now early-morning introspection begins to fail me.

dInIs



>sagehen adds WHO to WHOA and exclamatory WHY.  but WHO(M)/WHOSE
>all have initial h, not w, so they're not involved in the
>relationships we've been talking about.
>
>
>dInIs adds (for him) WHORF and WHARF.  both of these can have
>initial voiceless consonants for me.  but i'd certainly expect
>plenty of words to have moved into the voiced-only set for
>other speakers; after all, i have voiced initials as possible
>variants for all the voiceless-initial words.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 17 12:19:35 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:19:35 EDT
Subject: "bet a million"
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.081935.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

John Warne "Bet A Million" Gates, born May 18, 1855, died August 9, 1911.

"He gambled at poker, the stock market, and horse races. In 1900 at a horse
race in England he bet $70,000 on Royal Flush with 5½-to-1 odds and won
$600,000. Rumors had him winning over $2 million and said he had bet a cool
million, a fabrication that gave him his nickname. "
(from http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/GG/fga41.html,
"The Handbook of Texas Online", by The Texas State Historical Association)

     - Jim Landau


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Jun 17 12:58:29 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:58:29 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b9338171509d@[35.12.22.98]>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.085829.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>This quasi-developmental phoneme classification is clearest in my
>speech as regards the cot-caught distinction (which I have
>well-preserved) when it comes to classifying those two phonemes,
>especially before /g/. All my childhood words (fog, hog, dog, frog,
>log, etc...) have the vowel of "caught"; later-learned words are
>often invariably that of "cot": togs, cog, clog, bog, jog, etc... . I
>seem to have learned metaphoric (verbal) "bog" before the literal
>noun. Therefore, I have a variable "bog down" (=become mired in) with
>both vowels - but now early-morning introspection begins to fail me.

Why is "g" different? I speak all the "-g" words (I think) with the
"caught" vowel /O/, but comparable words with other terminal stops have /a/
like in "cot" ... e.g., "cop cob cot cod cock cog" = /kap kab kat kad kak
kOg/. Others in my family have the same. My talking RH dictionary seems to
tend this way too. I think /kag/, /klag/, /dZag/ do seem less 'wrong' to me
than /dag/, /lag/, /fag/ -- something like Dennis says above. My weather
radio (Pittsburgh) says "fahg" /fag/ instead of "fawg" /fOg/ ... which
strikes me (and at least some others) as odd.

-- Doug Wilson


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Mon Jun 17 14:02:41 2002
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 09:02:41 -0500
Subject: "bet a million"
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.090241.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Can I bet with this book?  just off the top of my head should have won under
$400,000.00
----- Original Message -----
From: "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 7:19 AM
Subject: "bet a million"


> John Warne "Bet A Million" Gates, born May 18, 1855, died August 9, 1911.
>
> "He gambled at poker, the stock market, and horse races. In 1900 at a
horse
> race in England he bet $70,000 on Royal Flush with 5½-to-1 odds and won
> $600,000. Rumors had him winning over $2 million and said he had bet a
cool
> million, a fabrication that gave him his nickname. "
> (from
http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/GG/fga41.html,
> "The Handbook of Texas Online", by The Texas State Historical Association)
>
>      - Jim Landau
>


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Mon Jun 17 14:25:16 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 10:25:16 -0400
Subject: Help!
In-Reply-To: <20020617114733.1248.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.102516.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, s. . . wrote:

#Dear all, I would like to know if there is an
#expression in English to wish a colleague or friend
#"a good working day" (meaning "work well").

None that I can think of.

#Also, can you think of any way to say "if you knew
#poverty..." or "if you were poorer...," which comment
#would be directed to people who seem to take material
#comforts for granted, are never thankful for what they
#have and are therefore "blasé." Thanks!

No standard expression with that exact sense and usage, nothing
lexicalized in the way of "Have a nice day" or "Knock on wood". In the
neighborhood are "You have it easy" or "You think you have it hard" or
"Look who's complaining", any of which would be followed by explanation,
e.g., "Plenty of people ..." or "There are millions who'd trade places
with you in an instant". WARNING: Saying anything like this is likely to
be received with some hostility, as would anything else fulfilling your
request.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 17 14:27:13 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 10:27:13 EDT
Subject: Wildfires
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.102713.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My wife has been following the news about the fires in Colorado and commented
that "wildfire" is a Western term; here in the Midwest we would say "forest
fire." That seems right to me . . . but has anyone noted this?
- Allan Metcalf


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 17 14:55:19 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 10:55:19 EDT
Subject: Wildfires plus assorted
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.105519.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/17/02 10:27:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, AAllan at AOL.COM
writes:

> My wife has been following the news about the fires in Colorado and
commented
>  that "wildfire" is a Western term; here in the Midwest we would say "forest
>  fire." That seems right to me . . . but has anyone noted this?

The Midwest, east of the Mississippi and to a certain extent west of the
Mississippi, was originally heavily forested and even in this industrial age
still has plenty of trees.  Any fire whose area is measured in acres probably
started in a forest and hence is a "forest fire".  In the West there are
forests, but the majority of the area is grassland (prairie), scrub, or
barren.  Hence in the West a fire covering numerous acres could easily be a
grass fire etc., so the Westerners lump such fires together under the
all-inclusive term "wildfire", even if the fire started and/or remained in
one of the Western forests.

While I'm here, a few assorted:

A little while ago a barge hit and knocked down a highway bridge, which made
national news for several days.  Many of the news reports referred to the
"tugboat" which was pushing the barge.  That is a giveaway of an Easterner.
A "tugboat" (there are many in New York Harbor) pushes an otherwise
self-propelled ship around the harbor, or less often goes out into the ocean
to pull a damaged ship to harbor.

On the other hand, in the Mississippi valley a boat which maneuvers unpowered
barges around is a "towboat".  The only tugboats in the Mississippi valley
are at New Orleans, handling self-propelled ocean-going ships.  The guilty
vessel in that bridge collapse was a towboat, not a tugboat.

Also, a towboat ALWAYS "tows" barges, although in fact it pushes them.
Normally "to tow" means "to pull" but in this particular context it means "to
push [barges]".  However, when an ocean-going tugboat "tows" a ship to
safety, it normally PULLS that ship by means of a "towline".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
An e-mail from a local organization manages to use "ebay" as an adverb(?).
" We are in need of an individual(s) who is ebay savvy to sell new
merchandise that has been donated to us for a fund raiser. "
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
I just saw "Scoobydoo" (quite enjoyable in a campy sort of way, but I still
say it would have been better without the title character).  Two of the human
characters are called "Velma" and "Shaggy"  In various places in the movie
they are called "the Velmster" and "the Shagster".  Does anyone know where
and when the custom of calling someone "the x-ster" began?

      - James A. Landau


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Mon Jun 17 15:12:45 2002
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:12:45 -0400
Subject: ..words and the internet..
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.111245.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An on-line paper by John Fraim, Electric Symbols: Internet Words And
Culture, in _First Monday_, June 2002, 7 #6, contends that "Words both
create and communicate worldviews.  The greatest potential in history
for the observation and analysis of words exists on the Internet. . . .
the Internet can be considered history's greatest observatory and
laboratory of words."

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue7_6/fraim/index.html

Among the ADS-related topics/people noted in the paper are:  American
Speech; ATNW; America in So Many Words, by Barnhart and Metcalf; Connie
Eble; Linguistics Society of America; and Dennis R. Preston.

Contents of the current (June 2002) issue:
http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue7_6/

George Cole
Shippensburg University


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 17 15:15:48 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:15:48 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020617083708.04e65eb0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.111548.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Douglas Wilson:

>>This quasi-developmental phoneme classification is clearest in my
>>speech as regards the cot-caught distinction (which I have
>>well-preserved) when it comes to classifying those two phonemes,
>>especially before /g/. All my childhood words (fog, hog, dog, frog,
>>log, etc...) have the vowel of "caught"; later-learned words are
>>often invariably that of "cot": togs, cog, clog, bog, jog, etc... . I
>>seem to have learned metaphoric (verbal) "bog" before the literal
>>noun. Therefore, I have a variable "bog down" (=become mired in) with
>>both vowels - but now early-morning introspection begins to fail me.
>
>Why is "g" different? I speak all the "-g" words (I think) with the
>"caught" vowel /O/, but comparable words with other terminal stops have /a/
>like in "cot" ... e.g., "cop cob cot cod cock cog" = /kap kab kat kad kak
>kOg/. Others in my family have the same. My talking RH dictionary seems to
>tend this way too. I think /kag/, /klag/, /dZag/ do seem less 'wrong' to me
>than /dag/, /lag/, /fag/ -- something like Dennis says above. My weather
>radio (Pittsburgh) says "fahg" /fag/ instead of "fawg" /fOg/ ... which
>strikes me (and at least some others) as odd.
>

For the canonical /a/-/O/ contrast, "dog" (with the "caught" vowel)
is an exception (when I work with colleagues whose interest is in
phoneme-grapheme correspondences and early reading instruction, "dog"
is often highlighted as an exception word). When FogDog.com first
started out, I found the TV commercials in which "fog" and "dog"
rhyme most disconcerting; since I first saw these in Maine, I thought
that they were regional to the greater Boston area, but they weren't.

Alice


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 17 15:17:30 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:17:30 -0400
Subject: Wildfires
In-Reply-To: <fb.27c89bdf.2a3f4bc1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.111730.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>My wife has been following the news about the fires in Colorado and commented
>that "wildfire" is a Western term; here in the Midwest we would say "forest
>fire." That seems right to me . . . but has anyone noted this?

I'd have to check, but a few weeks ago there were fires bad enough to
close the Garden State Parkway somewhere near Atlantic City (New
Jersey). I'm pretty sure these were referred to in the news as
"wildfires". I've heard the same in Florida.

Alice


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Mon Jun 17 15:37:58 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:37:58 -0400
Subject: -og words
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.113758.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I say "dog" with the caught vowel and all other -og words with the cob
vowel (not distinguished in my Atlanta-based dialect from the a in father).
 Like Alice Faber, I was bothered as a child by verse that rhymed dog with
other words.

I also noticed when I was young that we said "got" differently from other
-ot words, so got and hot don't rhyme; the vowel in "got" is higher, and is
the same except for length as the monophthong in "ride".  (I say "right" as
a diphthong, however.)  Thus this short vowel occurs in exactly one word in
my dialect, except when I am imitating hillbillies.  I understand that this
feature of the Atlanta dialect has been noticed by linguists.  Does that
mean it is an extra phoneme?

There are apparently phenomena like this in Cantonese and in Arabic:  In
Cantonese, there is one tone that is used in exactly one fairly common
word, nowhere else.  And in standard modern Arabic there is supposedly a
sound used only in the word "Allah" and nowhere else, but I forget the details.

My Cantonese informant once told me, "Cantonese has nine tones, but it only
uses seven."  Now just what does that mean...?

Charles WElls




Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 17 15:48:13 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:48:13 -0700
Subject: Wildfires
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.084813.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think wildfire and forest fire are pretty
interchangeable in the east. A quick google search
found a number of offical NJ state sites that refer to
"wildfires" or "wildland fires". In addition The
following quote from a commentary by NJ Assemblyman
Steve Corodemus uses both "wildfire" and 'forest
fire":

"Spring weather conditions such as high wind and
higher temperatures coupled with low humidity can spur
wildfires. The danger rises dramatically between March
15 and May 15, which is the critical forest fire
period, and residents and visitors must take extra
precautions during these months."
http://www.ahherald.com/trenton_talk/2002/tt_020328_fire_prev.htm

Also, Smokey the Bear admonishes "Only you can prevent
forest fires."

Ed



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Mon Jun 17 16:13:57 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:13:57 -0400
Subject: Wildfires
In-Reply-To: <20020617154813.19297.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.121357.0400.>

Perhaps I am over-thinking this (very likely), but I discern a difference
between wildfire and "forest fire." Now, I'm not sure if this springs from
my Missouri background or my years in New York City, or a combination or
intersection of both but the differences are 1) urgency, 2) location and 3)
control.

In my lexicon, a wildfire is an uncontrolled fire in nature, whether started
by humans or not, accidentally or on purpose, including a fire intended to
be controlled, such as an autumn burn-off or trash incineration, which gets
out of hand. A wildfire burns many types of countryside besides forests:
fields, brush, crops, ditches, etc. There is a sense of crisis and danger
with a wildfire. ("Brush fire" and "ditch fire" come to mind as related
terms, but they seem to be merely descriptive of what's burning).

A forest fire is a fire in the woods. This can include controlled and other
non-urgent fires, as long as they are among the trees. There may or not be a
sense of urgency: fires after lightning strikes, at least where I come from
in Southeast Missouri, can burn a few trees down and smolder for days but
not harm much else. While not technically a controlled fire, it has the same
non-catastrophic results and lack of crisis.

Regarding controlled fires in the woods: Yes, landowners do it. It's rather
stupid of them, but then people also still tend to believe in the value of
the autumn field burn-offs which in my thinking ought to have been abandoned
at the time of the Jefferson administration. They light controlled fires in
the woods to clear out underbrush, but a better way is to fence the area in
and let a few hogs loose. They'll clean out everything at mouth-level in no
time, including poison ivy. Then you can get in there with machinery and
haul out the big limbs and logs.

Grant Barrett


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Jun 17 16:24:46 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 09:24:46 -0700
Subject: Coffee Shop (1831) and Turkish Sayings
In-Reply-To: <111.13ccc818.2a3da90c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.092446.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 16 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> (OED doesn't have "kaymar" or "Firna Pidese," either--ed.)

In f[undotted i]rna pidesi (literally "oven bread") the -si is 3rd person
suffix (after vowels, after consonants -i) added to "pide"to connect it as a
phrase, like Galata t"urbesi "Galata tower". I'm not terribly surprised
that the phrase isn't in the OED. It probably wouldn't be in any Turkish
dictionary as a phrase either.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU  Mon Jun 17 17:04:17 2002
From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Johnson, Ellen)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:04:17 -0400
Subject: -og words
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.130417.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

here's verification of Charles's speech from another Atlantan.

only 'dog' has the vowel of 'caught' for me, of the -og words.
I don't have the merger otherwise, i.e. don't use /a/ in all, straw, bought, but some of my students do.  some think it sounds funny though.  they are mostly from metro atlanta.

I distinguish hw/w but most of my students don't.  except I do have /w/ in whoa and wharf.  I don't use an exclamatory why, so I couldn't really judge on that one.

and 'got' does indeed have the (monophthongal) vowel of 'ride', and seems to be an anomaly among -ot words for me too.  for those who are not native southerners, you should know that this is a FRONT vowel, not the low back 'ah' sound as it is often caricatured, intentionally or not.

Ellen

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Wells [mailto:charles at FREUDE.COM]
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 11:38 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: -og words


I say "dog" with the caught vowel and all other -og words with the cob
vowel (not distinguished in my Atlanta-based dialect from the a in father).
 Like Alice Faber, I was bothered as a child by verse that rhymed dog with
other words.

I also noticed when I was young that we said "got" differently from other
-ot words, so got and hot don't rhyme; the vowel in "got" is higher, and is
the same except for length as the monophthong in "ride".  (I say "right" as
a diphthong, however.)  Thus this short vowel occurs in exactly one word in
my dialect, except when I am imitating hillbillies.  I understand that this
feature of the Atlanta dialect has been noticed by linguists.  Does that
mean it is an extra phoneme?

There are apparently phenomena like this in Cantonese and in Arabic:  In
Cantonese, there is one tone that is used in exactly one fairly common
word, nowhere else.  And in standard modern Arabic there is supposedly a
sound used only in the word "Allah" and nowhere else, but I forget the details.

My Cantonese informant once told me, "Cantonese has nine tones, but it only
uses seven."  Now just what does that mean...?

Charles WElls




Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 17 17:48:26 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:48:26 -0400
Subject: Kibby & Henna on her toes (1874)
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.134826.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SYRIAN HOME-LIFE
compiled by Rev. Isaac Riley
from the materials furnished by Rev. Henry Harris Jessup
New york: Dodd & Mead
1874

   This beats my 1875 Isabel Burton "kibbeh" by one year.  No "hummus" here.

Pg. 12:  This is the _medhwad_, or manger, such as the infant Jesus was laid in.

Pg. 31:  Besides the red, black, and yellow shoes or slippers, the people often wear _kob-kobs_.  They are wooden clgs, made of a flat piece about the shape and size of the sole of a shoe, though an inch thick...

Pg. 34:  Bedawin mothers sing:
"Come, little Bedawy, sit on my lap;
Pretty pearls shine in your little white cap;
Rings are in your ears,
Rings are in your nose,
Rings upon your fingers,
And _henna_ on your toes."
(HENNA on your toes?  Hells bells!--ed.)

Pg. 39:  ...be a rich merchant or a _kadi_...

Pg. 63:  ...placed on a divan, with a large tray of _malebbes_, or sweetmeats and confectionery...

Pg. 77:  ..._dibbs_ (molasses)...

Pg. 91:  Children are told that the _Bawhaw_ or the _Ghoul_ or the Bah'oo_ is coming to eat them up...

Pg. 102:  _Kibby_ is the Arab plum-pudding and mince-pie and roast-beef, all in one.  It is made by pounding meat in a mortar with wheat, until both are mixed into a soft pulp, and then dressed with nuts and onions and butter, and baked or roasted in cakes over the fire.
   The pottage, or _mejeddara_, is made of _oddis_.  It is like thick pea-soup, but with a peculiar flavor.

Pg. 103:  The Arabs use no knives or forks at their meals, nor have they plates for each person; but each one doubles a piece of the _markuk_ bread into a kind of three-cornered spoon, and with it, or with a wooden spoon, or his fingers, dips from the dish which he may happen to prefer.

Pg. 107:  The prickly pear, or _subire_, is a delicious fruit...

Pg. 111:  Among the Arab dainties, one of the most familiar is a dish that is made for the relatives when a boy is born; it is called _mughly_.  It is made of pounded rice, flavored with rich spices and sugar, and put into litle bowls, and almonds and other nuts sprinkled over the top.  One of these little bowls is sent to each of the friends.

Pg. 112:  ...the _kahwajees_ or coffee-men...

Pg. 122:  The Arabs call chickens "_zahr el fool_," or bean-blossoms...

Pg. 209:  Arabs call death in war the "red death."  A natural and quiet death, with forgiveness of sins, they call "white death."  "Black death" is a violent and dreadful death, as by strangling.
(OED has only a different, 1901 "white death"--ed.)

Pg. 249:  ...his _kollusy_, or monk's cap...


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 17 17:57:38 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:57:38 -0400
Subject: Shiner, Gum Shoe (1904)
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.135738.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

LITTLE CITIZENS:
THE HUMORS OF SCHOOL LIFE
by Myra Kelly
New York: McClure, Phillips & Co.
1904

   This is an early book about New York's Lower East Side.  I read (in an article on Yiddish in the AMERICAN MERCURY) that it got the dialect just right, but there's not a whole lot here.

Pg. 14:  "Isidore Belchatosky he goes und makes (Page 15--ed.) me this here shiner," said Eva's accusing voice, as the eye under the poultice was uncovered for a moment.
(OED also has a 1904 citation for "shiner"--ed.)

Pg. 55:  For well he saw the looks of admiration which were turned upon his daughter as she sat by his side and consumed cold pink lemonade.
(I have 1890s "pink lemonade" in archives--ed.)

Pg. 68:  He was then dragged through long halls and up the tall stairs by a large boy, who spoke to him disdainfully as "greenie"...

Pg. 127:  The Associate Superindent for her vicinity was the Honourable Timothy O'Shea, known and dreaded as "Gum Shoe Tim," owing to his engaging way of creeping softly up back stairs and appearing all unheralded and unwelcome, upon the threshold of his intended victim.

Pg. 204:  "I know where we can hook a banana.  And the Ginney's asleep."
("Ginney" is used in the book, but "wop" is not--ed.)


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 17 18:53:32 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:53:32 EDT
Subject: bad hair day attribution
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.145332.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A person who is sought out by the OED as the originator of "bad hair day" is
very happy to have the honor:

http://www.scrippsjschool.org/ohio_journalist.php

Not Just Another Bad Hair Day

Newspaper columnist and author Susan Swartz (BSJ ’65) doesn’t get offended
if people know her for having a bad hair day. The Oxford English Dictionary
(OED) editors have credited her as being the first to publish the term "bad
hair day."

Swartz is a nationally syndicated columnist based in Santa Rosa, Calif., who
has also written a book that was read on National Public Radio (NPR) and
performed as a play.

<<<that's all that's on the website, but the story in the print version goes
on at length. Excerpts:>>>

Prevously, the term had been traced to comedian Garry Shandling, who in 1991
complained to a magazine about having a bad hair day. But reserchers
persisted and found an earlier use of the term in one of Swartz's 1988
columns in the Houston Chronicle. . . .
  "I really kind of wanted it to be mine, but in the essence of true
fact-finding, I was helping the researcher. I thought, maybe I heard it on
Seinfeld, but that show wasn't on in 1988. I said, maybe I read it in the
'Cathy' comisc, but they researched all those," Swartz said.
  Swartz pointed out that she will be known for inventing the term "bad hair
day" just like writer Alice Kahn is known for creating the term "yuppie."
  "I truly don't know if I made it up. At that time we had teen-age girls in
the house, and as any good columnist does, I'm always stealing things from my
relatives for my writing. Maybe one of them ran out the door saying her hair
was going to look bad all day," Swartz said.
  The OED counts only who published the term first, and that was Swartz. The
sentence she wrote was: "Even those who emerge from the sea to casually braid
their shiny wet vines into a thick coil with a hibiscus on the end also have
bad-hair days."
  "Anyone who writes is hoping his or her words will be immortalized in some
way. Although this is such a silly little thing, it has been really fun," she
said.
  Swartz, who said she has endured teasing from friends, said few of them
will receive autographed copies of the OED. "You can't just go out and buy a
whole bunch of these to sign for your friends. The OED is this huge, mammoth
thing."

- Allan Metcalf


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Mon Jun 17 19:27:50 2002
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 15:27:50 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <36842572.3232970903@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.152750.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I used to keep a running list of chuckle-inducing UK place names, though
I've not been able to find it for a while. My favorite is still Nether Wallop.

Apropos of rounders: when I was working for Longman in the UK,  we used to
take the odd afternoon off, go to the Old Harlow pub, then play rounders in
the Harlow town park. It suited me fine, because you get to run whether you
actually hit the ball or not.


>There's a village near Gatwick named Pease Pottage, and I can't ride by it
>without thinking "Pease Pottage hot, Pease Pottage cold".  Btw, Bill
>Bryson's _Notes from a Small Island_ has a nice appreciation of weird UK
>placenames.
>
>Lynne
>
>


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Mon Jun 17 19:37:33 2002
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 15:37:33 -0400
Subject: tugboats
In-Reply-To: <90.27723962.2a3f5257@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.153733.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not at all exclusive to Easterners. In the Puget Sound area, folks call
boats that guide big tankers and push barges 'tugboats' as well. I'm not
sure about other large harbors in the US, but I'd be interested to know the
distribution of the term.

At 10:55 AM 6/17/02 -0400, James A. Landau wrote:

>A little while ago a barge hit and knocked down a highway bridge, which made
>national news for several days.  Many of the news reports referred to the
>"tugboat" which was pushing the barge.  That is a giveaway of an Easterner.
>A "tugboat" (there are many in New York Harbor) pushes an otherwise
>self-propelled ship around the harbor, or less often goes out into the ocean
>to pull a damaged ship to harbor...


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Jun 17 19:45:23 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:45:23 -0700
Subject: tugboats
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020617153456.009d12b0@pop-server.nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.124523.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Very true. Both in the Puget Sound area and on the Columbia River, they're
tugboats, whether they are pulling barges or pushing them. I don't recall
ever hearing of towboats here in the PNW.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Wendalyn Nichols wrote:

> Not at all exclusive to Easterners. In the Puget Sound area, folks call
> boats that guide big tankers and push barges 'tugboats' as well. I'm not
> sure about other large harbors in the US, but I'd be interested to know the
> distribution of the term.
>
> At 10:55 AM 6/17/02 -0400, James A. Landau wrote:
>
> >A little while ago a barge hit and knocked down a highway bridge, which made
> >national news for several days.  Many of the news reports referred to the
> >"tugboat" which was pushing the barge.  That is a giveaway of an Easterner.
> >A "tugboat" (there are many in New York Harbor) pushes an otherwise
> >self-propelled ship around the harbor, or less often goes out into the ocean
> >to pull a damaged ship to harbor...
>


From mkuha at BSU.EDU  Mon Jun 17 19:47:50 2002
From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:47:50 -0500
Subject: Help!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206171018590.1104017-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.144750.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, s. . . wrote:
>
> #Dear all, I would like to know if there is an
> #expression in English to wish a colleague or friend
> #"a good working day" (meaning "work well").

Sometimes I hear people say "have a good class" to someone who is about to
go into a classroom, but obviously the meaning is limited to part of the day
and to academic work.
mk


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Jun 17 20:12:50 2002
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:12:50 -0400
Subject: -og words
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.161250.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:04 PM 6/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>here's verification of Charles's speech from another Atlantan.
>
>only 'dog' has the vowel of 'caught' for me, of the -og words.
>I don't have the merger otherwise, i.e. don't use /a/ in all, straw,
>bought, but some of my students do.  some think it sounds funny
>though.  they are mostly from metro atlanta.
>...
>and 'got' does indeed have the (monophthongal) vowel of 'ride', and seems
>to be an anomaly among    -ot words for me too.  for those who are not
>native southerners, you should know that this is a FRONT vowel, not the
>low back 'ah' sound as it is often caricatured, intentionally or not.
>
>Ellen

I learned this last lesson from Natalie Maynor, who corrected my
monophthongizing of /ai/. I naively used low-back 'script a' and she said
"No no, it's [a], i.e., 'print a', not higher but farther front.


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Charles Wells [mailto:charles at FREUDE.COM]
>Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 11:38 AM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: -og words
>
>
>I say "dog" with the caught vowel and all other -og words with the cob
>vowel (not distinguished in my Atlanta-based dialect from the a in father).
>  Like Alice Faber, I was bothered as a child by verse that rhymed dog with
>other words.
>
>I also noticed when I was young that we said "got" differently from other
>-ot words, so got and hot don't rhyme; the vowel in "got" is higher, and is
>the same except for length as the monophthong in "ride".  (I say "right" as
>a diphthong, however.)  Thus this short vowel occurs in exactly one word in
>my dialect, except when I am imitating hillbillies.  I understand that this
>feature of the Atlanta dialect has been noticed by linguists.  Does that
>mean it is an extra phoneme?
>
>Charles Wells

I don't understand why you'd use the fronted 'print a' when imitating
hillbillies.  Just which hillbillies do you have in mind?  Southern Ohio
"hillbillies" don't monophthongize to [a]; they use a farther back
semi-rounded vowel, midway between 'script a' (ah) and 'backward C' (O, to
use the symbol previous writers have used).  And this may indeed be an
extra phoneme in this area, as it is in Pittsburgh and western PA and
eastern Canada (not to mention England).



_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 17 21:50:51 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:50:51 EDT
Subject: tugboats
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.175051.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/17/02 3:31:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM writes:

> Not at all exclusive to Easterners. In the Puget Sound area, folks call
>  boats that guide big tankers and push barges 'tugboats' as well. I'm not
>  sure about other large harbors in the US, but I'd be interested to know the
>  distribution of the term.

The English word "tugboat" is used world-wide.  I mentioned "Easterners"
because I was discussing news reports and most national news reporting comes
out of either New York or Washington.  Not that many in either New York or
Washington would recognize the regional word "towboat".  My guess is that the
on-the-spot reports that went to the national news media used "towboat" and
the people in the New York offices understandably read that as a misprint for
"tugboat".  I did notice that after a couple of days "tugboat" dropped out of
the news reports and "towboat" came in---presumably corrections caught up
with the stories.

It is an interesting question why pushing a barge should be called "towing"
(and a group of barges being pushed by one powered boat is a "barge tow").
My guess is that the term dates back to canal-boat days, when "barge" meant a
canal boat which was propelled by being pulled ("towed") by a mule.  The same
usage of "tow" meaning "pull" survives today in "tow truck".  However, once
specialized river boats were built for pushing barges (by which time most
canals had gone out of business), people insisted that a barge, whether on a
river or a canal, was "towed" and refused to admit the landlubber word
"push".  Technical jargon.

By the way, "tug" also means "pull" but a tugboat PUSHES.

At Louisville (actually across the river on the Indiana shore) there is a
very nice restaurant on a barge.  The name of the restaurant is "Towboat
Annie's".

     - Jim Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 17 23:50:58 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:50:58 EDT
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicons I, II, III
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.195058.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the NEW YORK SUN.  Daily Candy Lexicon III is in today's SUN (Monday,
6-17-2002), but the other two are from before the newspaper began!  See
www.dailycandy.com.  That web site encourages you to send "Daily Candy" to a
friend.  This is for scholarly slang use only, not for profit, and all rights
are reserved with "Daily Candy."

DAILY CANDY LEXICON III (June 17, 2002)

He's a lot of yabba dabba and not a lot of do."
Used to refer to someone who is all talk and no action. "I smoke O.P.'s."
As in "I smoke other people's cigarettes." While you know how we feel about <A HREF="http://www.dailycandy.com/candy/article.jsp?ArticleId=15206&city=1">
smoking</A>, it's nice to see the chronic moocher have a sense of humor about it
and 'fess up to her bad habit."Mitin"
More information than I needed. "I have that T-shirt."
Been there, done that.And our personal favorite, a new support group started
by a dear, dear friend. . .F.L.A.C.I.D.
Pronounced "flaccid." Acronym for Failed Lovers Against Caller ID. Don't say
you haven't been there. We all have.

DAILY CANDY LEXICON I (Yes, I got it out of order--ed.)

Girleen (n): 1. A young sassy woman. Also used as a term of affection for a
good friend: "Hey, girleen, you are an inspiration to us all." Swish (adj):
1. Very suave, smooth, or cool: "Wow, you're looking awfully swish this eve,"
or "Wow, I saw Amy last night, and, gee, she was so swish in her fantastic
shoes!" Shoppings (n): 1. The product amassed from a day out at the shops. (A
term discovered at Fifth Avenue and 56th Street on a recent summer day amid
of gaggle of tourists. Woman, holding up Barneys bag: "Babette! Look at my
shoppings!") Mwah (v): 1. A sound uttered in protest (when "waaahhh" becomes
too whiny). 2. A kissing sound, most commonly used at the close of a letter
in lieu of "xoxoxoxo." Skew-wiff (adj): 1. All messy, disheveled. Colloquial
British term somehow derived from "askew" (pronounced Skeeeeewiff): "Her hair
was all skew-wiff; she looked like she'd just woken up."

DAILY CANDY LEXICON II

Intie (n.): 1. The intimacy flu. Usually occurs 2 to 3 weeks into a budding
dating relationship. Symptoms include unreturned phone calls, "mistakenly"
deleted e-mails, and sleeping on far edge of the bed. Stray (n.): 1. A
heterosexual male who everyone secretly thinks is gay. Tine-gid-ish?: 1. Very
fast, slurred word designated for asking the question "What time is it?" when
one is just too darn busy to enunciate.Flossin' (v.): 1. To drive around in a
nice car with the top down. 2. Generally living large; living life well. 3.
That sexy activity endorsed by dental hygienists and other anal-retentive
folk. (Just kidding! We floss regularly).D.I.T. (n.): 1. A diva-in-training.
(No further explanation necessary. You know who you are).


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 18 00:51:36 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:51:36 EDT
Subject: Kibby (1844), Old Woman's Hair (1844) and much more
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.205136.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE MODERN SYRIANS;
OR, NATIVE SOCIETY IN DAMASCUS, ALEPPO, AND THE MOUNTAINS OF THE DRUZES
FROM NOTES MADE IN THOSE PARTS DURING THE YEARS 1841-2-3
by An Oriental Student
(Andrew A. Paton on catnyp--ed.)
London: Longman, Brown, Green, and Longmans
1844

Pg. 22:  The sherbet stalls and confectioners' shops are unique: here is the
broad platter of honey pastry (kunafeh), and the sauce of pomegrante grains
(hab-erraman), in its huge curiously carved and shining goblet...

Pg. 97:  At midday they dine: the dishes most in vogue are kibby, or chopped
meat and corn formed into balls and fried, rice rolled in boiled vine-leaves
(Pg. 98--ed.), various sorts of salads. and omelettes with herbs.
(Merriam-Webster has 1937 for "kibbeh."  OED has no entry at all--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
PERSIAN LIFE AND CUSTOMS
by the Rev. Samuel Graham Wilson
second edition
Edinburgh: Oliphant Anderson and Ferrier
1896

Pg. 129:  The _matsoon_ or _yogurt_ is a curd made by putting rennet in the
heated milk and letting it sour for several days.
(Several "madzoon" hits are in ADS-L archive.  Not in the revised OED?--ed.)

Pg. 249:  Among the favorite confections is _gaz_.  It is made from the juice
of the tamarisk-tree and has a delicious flavor...

Pg. 250:  ..._khulva_, a taffy of molasses and nuts, rock-candy, and
_peshmak_, which is made of sugar and butter, crystallized like snowflakes or
thistle-down, and formed into pyramids, cones, and other shapes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MEMOIRS OF A BABYLONIAN PRINCESS
written by herself
(Maria Theresa Asmar is on catnyp.  No, it's not Cher--she's Armenian--ed.)
in two volumes
London: Henry Colburn
1844

VOLUME ONE
Pg. 57:  Amongst the dishes which succeeded to these were a lamb, stuffed
with all sorts of herbs, rice, and pistachios, which was served up whole,
saffron being added, for the double purpose of giving it colour and flavour;
a number of roast fowls; stuffed gourds; two or three large dishes of a
vegetable, (Pg. 58--ed.) called "bamia;" and a dish made of a veal hash,
enveloped in vine leaves; "coobba" which is a crust made of green corn and
hashed meat, filled with a hash of beef and herbs, called "shar al ajouz," or
old woman's hair, of delicious flavour, and made up into globes, as large as
a man's head; many dishes of "kabap," or "kabob," as it is more usually
written, which is a kind of sausage meat, cooked on an iron rod; together
with a host of other recondite preparations, the names of which have passed
from my memory.

Pg. 59:  I had almost forgotten to mention the "nuckel," or dessert, which,
in its way, was in no wise inferior to the dinner.  There was a substance
having the consistency of snow, which is found on the leaves of trees, of a
green colour, having a delicious sweet taste, called in the Chaldean language
"gasgoul," and in Arabic "man al sama."  There were also the figs of Jebel
SInjar (a mountain to the northwest of Mosul,) of enormous size, some of them
being not less than six inches in length; the "laimoun halou," or sweet
orange, from Bagdad and Bassorah, a fruit almost as large as aa shaddock,
greatly resembling the orange in size and appearance, but far excelling that
fruit in smoothness of skin and sweetness of flavour.  So abundant is this
fruit in Mesopotamia that twelve are sold for a penny.  "Hammas," a sort of
kernel, resembling a dried harvest bean, which is roasted after the manner of
coffee; to which may be added pistachio nuts, pomegranates, and grapes.

Pg. 239:  Camel load, after camel load, poured into the camp, consisting of
flour biscuit, and rice; beside quantities of "basterma," (Pg. 240--ed.) a
kind of sausage, which is dried, and keeps well for a considerable length of
time; "kaourma," a preparation of hashed beef or mutton, cooked in grease and
crammed into skins, which is dished up, during the journey, with dates and
herbs, and makes a very palatable dish; "halawah," a sweet solid substance,
composed of "simsim," described in my account of the manufactures of Telkef,
honey, and other ingredients.

Pg. 299:  We had an excellent dinner.  Besides roasts, pillaws, kababs,
sambousack, and other dishes usually found at eastern tables, I tasted here a
dish called "jild el faras," literally horses skin, which is a preparation of
the Damascus apricots, so celebrated for their flavour and size, which are
boiled in a mass, till they become a thick marmalade.  This marmalade is
reduced to a tolerable consistency, and then rolled out into a large sheet, a
yard square, not thicker than the eighth part of an inch, which is then
rolled like a wafer.  The flavour is delicious.  At this dinner, too, wine
was served of various kinds; one of which, I remember, I found extremely
agreeable.  It was called Nebid el Asfar; it was of a gold colour, and I
learned that the Italians import a considerable quantity of it.

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 116:  We were provided with a stock of basterma, a kind of dried sausage
meat, or beef or mutton, mingled with spices, salted and dried, and eaten
either raw or broiled; kaorma, beef or mutton cut into pieces, and cooked in
its own fat, mingled with salt, spices, and savory herbs, which keeps for a
length of time; Cyprus cheese, (Pg. 117--ed.) which is delicious when
roasted; rice, dates, and other dry provisions.

Pg. 117:   Here we were soon visited by our friends in the town, to whom
intelligence had been forwarded of our arrival, and who immediately came
forth to meet us, bringing with them presents of a most acceptable kind, such
as lambs and fowls, besides a great abundance of the delicious fruits of
Jaffa (food fit for the dwellers of Paradise), bahmia and "ardeshaouk,"
artichokes (literally, "thorn of the earth"), as large as a good sized
pumpkin, and other vegetables.  Jaffa produces no fewer than two-and-thirty
different kinds of figs.

Pg. 179:  The Princess breakfasted alone in her room, on sherbet, a soup of
chickens, rice milk, kaimagh (cream cheese), kharisha (a cheese containing
odoriferous herbs from Mount Carmel,) dried fruits, and sweets of  different
kinds.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Tue Jun 18 05:03:11 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 22:03:11 -0700
Subject: Back to "why", "why"
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.220311.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Charles will be pleased that I found, in surveying the Southerners in our
department, that our two Georgians both claim (I didn't check it out
personally) to pronounce both interrogative and exclamatory "why" with
/hw/, though one has a monophthong [footnote: Beverly, this is what Jim
Sledd long ago called the "Confederate vowel"; you can get a nice minimal
pair contrast with "Tam", "time", "Tom" for some Texas speakers -- this
probably wouldn't work so nicely in Georgia, where "Tom" is more likely to
have a back rounded vowel)] in the interrogative, and a diphthong in the
exclamatory.

        One north Alabama speaker and one north Texas speaker did make the
/hw/:/w/ contrast that dInIs attests, and I checked with my mother (98),
from East Texas, and found that she also makes the distinction, giving it
some time depth.

        Rudy


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Jun 18 08:30:18 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:30:18 +0100
Subject: precrime
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.093018.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry noted the word 'precrime' the other day.  It seems to have taken hold
in the new US Catholic Bishops' policy on sexual abuse:

(from the AP:)
The new charter reads, "Diocesan policy will provide that for even a single
act of sexual abuse of a minor -- past, present or future -- the offending
priest or deacon will be permanently removed from ministry."

How future acts are determined is not stated, but perhaps they have some
divine assistance.

Tata,
Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 18 10:46:22 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:46:22 EDT
Subject: Ted Turner removes all doubt; Hummus (1873) and Syrian Food
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.064622.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TED TURNER OPENS HIS MOUTH AND REMOVES ALL DOUBT

CNN chief accuses Israel of terror

Oliver Burkeman in New York and Peter Beaumont in Jerusalem
Tuesday June 18, 2002
<A HREF="http://www.guardian.co.uk/">The Guardian</A>

Ted Turner, the billionaire founder of CNN, accuses Israel today of engaging
in "terrorism" against the Palestinians, in comments that threaten to lead to
a further decline in the news network's already poor relations with the
Jewish state. "Aren't the Israelis and the Palestinians both terrorising each
other?" says Turner, who is vice-chairman of AOL Time Warner, which owns CNN,
in an exclusive interview with the Guardian. "The Palestinians are fighting
with human suicide bombers, that's all they have. The Israelis ... they've
got one of the most powerful military machines in the world. The Palestinians
have nothing. So who are the terrorists? I would make a case that both sides
are involved in terrorism." His remarks were last night condemned by Ariel
Sharon's government, which called them "stupid". Andrea Levin, director of
the American pro-Israeli media watchdog Camera, said the comments were a
"reprehensible" attempt to "blur the line between perpetrator and victim". In
his first British interview since the September 11 attacks, Mr Turner - who
broke philanthropic records in 1997 when he donated $1bn to the UN - argues
that poverty and desperation are the root cause of Palestinian suicide
bombings. But Daniel Seaman, a spokesman for the Israeli government, said:
"My only advice to Ted Turner is if people assume you are stupid, it is just
best to keep your mouth shut rather than open your mouth and confirm everyone
in that view." Mr Turner also admits that he was wrong to call the September
11 hijackers "brave" in a speech in Rhode Island that sparked outrage. "I
made an unfortunate choice of words," he says.. (...)

   ASK YAHOO! discussed this on January 15, 2001 (http://www.ask.yahoo.c
om/20010115.html).  Variously given as "It is better to stay silent and have
people think you a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt," it's
been attributed to Abraham Lincoln, George Eliot, Mark Twain, Albert
Einstein, Groucho Marx, and SIlvan Engel.
   A check of the Making of America database didn't turn up anything, but I
could have used the wrong terms.  We all await Fred Shapiro to remove all
doubt on the origin of this famous phrase.

(OFF TOPIC:  So this guy gives one billion dollars to the United Nations,
where the head of the Security Council is Syria...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
HUMMUS AND SYRIAN FOOD

   Politics, however, should not get in the way of food.
   I had previously cited SYRIAN HOME-LIFE (1874), compiled by Rev. Isaac
Riley based on materials by Rev. Henry Harris Jessup.  I noticed that THE
WOMEN OF THE ARABS (1873) by Henry Harris Jessup is on the MOA-Mich. Books
database, and it appears to be almost the exact same book.  "Hummus" is given
there as "peas."  Take a look.  I did not expect this book on "Making of
America."  (Merriam-Webster has 1950 for "hummus.")

YOUR GUIDE TO SYRIA
by Nina Nelson
London: Alvin Redman
1966

   This has a late date, but I like the food section.  The same author also
wrote YOUR GUIDE TO EGYPT (1964), YOUR GUIDE TO LEBANON (1965), and YOUR
GUIDE TO JORDAN (1966), but the NYPL doesn't have all of those to compare.
   FWIW, no "falafel" is here.

Pg. 67:  SYRIAN FOOD, RECIPES AND DRINKS
Pg. 68:  KEBAB...BURGHAL...KIBBEH.
Pg. 69:  MAHSHI...KIBBEH in a tray.
(OED for "mahshi"?--ed.)
Pg. 70:
   RIZ BEL FOUL (Rice with beans)...
   MECHWI
      This is minced roast meat mixed with onions and tomatoes.
   KHAROUF MECHOUT
      This is stuffed roast lamb.
   SHAWARMA
      This is also a Lebanese meat dish and a great favourite.  _Shawarma_
consists of thin slices of mutton or lamb marinated in a mixture of vinegar,
onion and cardamom seeds (ground together with salt).  The meat is then
speared on a spit with a slice of fat in between each of f(Pg. 71--ed.) our
slices.  The top of the spit is decorated with a tomato or lemon.
(OED doesn't have "shawarma"??  Don't worry.  Nobody's heard of this.  It's
not like they serve it in _five_ restaurants around the block from the NYU
library--ed.)
Pg. 71:  MEZZA...LEBAN
Pg. 72:  HOMOS...TABBOULEH SALAD...AWAMEH
Pg. 73:
   NAMORA
      This is made of brown sugar, pin kernals and pistachios.
   HALAWET AL JUBAN (Sweet of cheese)
      This is a specialty of Hama and is white cheese mixed with fine rice
beaten together with lemon juice until it looks like unbaked pastry.
(I don't remember eating it during my visit to Hama--ed.)
   BAQLAWA...
   ARABIC BREAD...
Pg. 74:
   DRINKS...
      Some people prefer more sugar than others but the medium sweet type
called "Mazbout" is what suits most tastes.  This is made in the following
way...
Pg. 75:  SALTED PISTACHIO NUTS.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 18 10:54:48 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:54:48 EDT
Subject: Ted Turner removes all doubt; Hummus (1873) and Syrian Food
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.065448.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Pg. 73:  NAMORA...pine kernels..


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Jun 18 13:52:59 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:52:59 -0400
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicons I, II, III
In-Reply-To: <49.1f101425.2a3fcfe2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.095259.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

#DAILY CANDY LEXICON III (June 17, 2002)
#
#"I smoke O.P.'s." As in "I smoke other people's cigarettes."

I heard this one at least as early as late sixties. It reminds me of:
        "You want some ABC gum?"
        "Sure. What's ABC?"
        "Already Been Chewed."

(I realize a mooched OP cigarette is clean from the pack. It was just
free association.)

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Jun 18 14:10:23 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:10:23 -0400
Subject: precrime
In-Reply-To: <61534485.3233381418@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.101023.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Lynne Murphy wrote:

#Barry noted the word 'precrime' the other day.  It seems to have taken hold
#in the new US Catholic Bishops' policy on sexual abuse:
#
#(from the AP:)
#The new charter reads, "Diocesan policy will provide that for even a single
#act of sexual abuse of a minor -- past, present or future -- the offending
#priest or deacon will be permanently removed from ministry."
#
#How future acts are determined is not stated, but perhaps they have some
#divine assistance.

Ah. The concept, not the word.

And even the concept is present only if one insists on an unlikely
reading. As I read this, they mean "A single act of sexual abuse of a
minor by a priest or deacon -- whether long ago [past: maybe beyond the
statute of limitations], recent [present: still subject to action by the
law], or *subsequent to the adoption of this policy* [future] -- will
result in ..."

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mkuha at BSU.EDU  Tue Jun 18 14:17:13 2002
From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:17:13 -0500
Subject: precrime
In-Reply-To: <61534485.3233381418@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.091713.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 6/18/02 3:30 AM, Lynne Murphy wrote:

> Barry noted the word 'precrime' the other day.  It seems to have taken hold
> in the new US Catholic Bishops' policy on sexual abuse:
>
> (from the AP:)
> The new charter reads, "Diocesan policy will provide that for even a single
> act of sexual abuse of a minor -- past, present or future -- the offending
> priest or deacon will be permanently removed from ministry."
>
> How future acts are determined is not stated, but perhaps they have some
> divine assistance.

On the basis of "Minority Report" sneak peeks, I'd say all it takes is Tom
Cruise's assistance.
mk


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 18 14:27:02 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:27:02 -0400
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicons I, II, III
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206180949410.2127259-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.102702.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:52:59AM -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> #DAILY CANDY LEXICON III (June 17, 2002)
> #
> #"I smoke O.P.'s." As in "I smoke other people's cigarettes."
>
> I heard this one at least as early as late sixties. It reminds me of:

HDAS has this to 1929, and "O.P." (not with the genitive) from decades
earlier.

Jesse Sheidlower


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 18 16:58:26 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 12:58:26 -0400
Subject: Ted Turner removes all doubt; Hummus (1873) and Syrian Food
In-Reply-To: <112.132355a5.2a40697e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.125826.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

First, a personal political note:  I spend a lot of my time arguing
pro-Israeli positions against my father-in-law, who is a strong
Palestinian sympathizer.  But, in the face of Barry's comments about Ted
Turner, I feel I have to speak up and say that I believe there is some
truth, perhaps considerable truth, in what Ted Turner says (not about the
hijackers being brave, which, although true in some literal sense, is a
really stupid comment, but about terror being bilateral).

As for the quotation, "It is better to stay silent and have people think
you a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt," this is a
proverb or pseudo-Lincolnism.  The earliest citation for it in the files
of the Yale Dictionary of Quotations is dated 1931; in the 1931 occurrence
it is attributed to Lincoln.  There is no evidence of Lincoln actually
having said this.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Heaberlin at SWT.EDU  Tue Jun 18 17:59:12 2002
From: Heaberlin at SWT.EDU (Dickie Heaberlin)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 12:59:12 -0500
Subject: Back to "why", "why"
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.125912.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This south Texan contrasts /hw/ and /w/ in the two "why"s.

Dickie M. Heaberlin

Rudolph C Troike wrote:

> Charles will be pleased that I found, in surveying the Southerners in our
> department, that our two Georgians both claim (I didn't check it out
> personally) to pronounce both interrogative and exclamatory "why" with
> /hw/, though one has a monophthong [footnote: Beverly, this is what Jim
> Sledd long ago called the "Confederate vowel"; you can get a nice minimal
> pair contrast with "Tam", "time", "Tom" for some Texas speakers -- this
> probably wouldn't work so nicely in Georgia, where "Tom" is more likely to
> have a back rounded vowel)] in the interrogative, and a diphthong in the
> exclamatory.
>
>         One north Alabama speaker and one north Texas speaker did make the
> /hw/:/w/ contrast that dInIs attests, and I checked with my mother (98),
> from East Texas, and found that she also makes the distinction, giving it
> some time depth.
>
>         Rudy


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Jun 19 00:00:42 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:00:42 -0400
Subject: Cup of Joe
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.200042.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        The OED says only that the origin of "joe," as in a cuppa joe (coffee), is unknown, but the U.S. Navy has its own theory:

        >>Josephus Daniels (18 May 1862-15 January 1948) was appointed Secretary of the Navy by President Woodrow Wilson in 1913. Among his reforms of the Navy were inaugurating the practice of making 100 Sailors from the Fleet eligible for entrance into the Naval Academy, the introduction of women into the service, and the abolishment of the officers' wine mess. From that time on, the strongest drink aboard Navy ships could only be coffee and over the years, a cup of coffee became known as "a cup of Joe". <<

        From http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/traditions/html/navyterm.html

        Does this have any validity?


John Baker


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Jun 19 00:39:03 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:39:03 -0700
Subject: Cup of Joe
In-Reply-To: <D9BA04198D5C154F901F45D28E4866B5012D41B4@phex01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.173903.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's plausible. RHHDAS records the term from 1930 and it is a term used
particularly in the Navy. The earliest cites in both the OED and RHHDAS are
US Navy/Marine Corps usages. Barry Popik might have an antedating of these
sources.

The Daniels explanation reeks of urban legend, but that doesn't mean it
isn't true. I don't know of any evidence to contradict it.

RHHDAS includes a suggestion that it may be from the 1860 Stephen Foster
song "Old Black Joe," an etymology suggested by another naval source. The
Foster song, however, doesn't have anything to do with coffee. This one
sounds like even more of a stretch, although not as cutesy as the Daniels
suggestion.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Baker, John
> Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 5:01 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Cup of Joe
>
>
>         The OED says only that the origin of "joe," as in a
> cuppa joe (coffee), is unknown, but the U.S. Navy has its own theory:
>
>         >>Josephus Daniels (18 May 1862-15 January 1948) was
> appointed Secretary of the Navy by President Woodrow Wilson
> in 1913. Among his reforms of the Navy were inaugurating the
> practice of making 100 Sailors from the Fleet eligible for
> entrance into the Naval Academy, the introduction of women
> into the service, and the abolishment of the officers' wine
> mess. From that time on, the strongest drink aboard Navy
> ships could only be coffee and over the years, a cup of
> coffee became known as "a cup of Joe". <<
>
>         From
> http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/traditions/html/navyterm.html
>
>         Does this have any validity?
>
>
> John Baker
>


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Jun 19 01:20:14 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:20:14 -0400
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicons I, II, III
In-Reply-To: <20020618142702.GA1253@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.212014.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        [Barry P]
#> #DAILY CANDY LEXICON III (June 17, 2002)
#> #
#> #"I smoke O.P.'s." As in "I smoke other people's cigarettes."

        [Mark M]
#> I heard this one at least as early as late sixties. It reminds me of:

        [Jesse S]
#HDAS has this to 1929, and "O.P." (not with the genitive) from decades
#earlier.

I take the /-z/ as plural, as in "Marlboros", not genitive.

-- Mark M.


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Jun 19 01:29:21 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:29:21 -0400
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20020617112326.00b6fcd0@mail.oberlin.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.212921.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Charles Wells wrote:

#I say "dog" with the caught vowel and all other -og words with the cob
#vowel (not distinguished in my Atlanta-based dialect from the a in father).

Exactly the same for me. My parents were NYC-born, and I grew up
Westchester and then NYC.

I have picked up an occasional "caught" pronunciation of "frog", which
as far as I can tell I use only in songs and rhymes where it rhymes with
"dog" and in what might be broadly called "dialect" in telling jokes and
stories.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 19 01:34:24 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:34:24 EDT
Subject: Cup of Joe
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.213424.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/18/2002 7:58:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes:

> Josephus Daniels (18 May 1862-15 January 1948) was appointed Secretary of
the
> Navy by President Woodrow Wilson in 1913. Among his reforms of the Navy
were
> inaugurating the practice of making 100 Sailors from the Fleet eligible for
> entrance into the Naval Academy, the introduction of women into the
service,
> and the abolishment of the officers' wine mess. From that time on, the
> strongest drink aboard Navy ships could only be coffee and over the years,
a
> cup of coffee became known as "a cup of Joe".

While it is true that General Order 99, issued by Josephus Daniels on 1 June
1914, did abolish officers' wine messes, these wine messes had only been in
existence since being authorized by Article 1080 of the Navy Regulations in
1893.  Aside from these wine messes, the Navy had been dry since
<begin quote>
the spirit ration was discontinued by act of Congress on 14 July 1862.
"Distilled spirituous liquors" were also banned from all naval vessels
"except as medical stores and upon the order and under the control of the
medical officers of such vessels." Those who are entitled to the spirit
ration will receive a commutation payment of 5 cents per day (in addition to
their regular pay) beginning 1 September [1862].
<end quote>

One wonders whether the abolition of the officers' wine messes in an
otherwise dry Navy was a significant enough event to have inspired a nickname
for coffee.

ref: "Alcohol in the Navy, 1794-1935" on a FAQ list by the Dept. of the Navy,
Naval Historical Center, URL http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq32-1.htm

    - Jim Landau

PS Speaking of urban legends, a naval officer who had much to do with
abolishing spirits in the Navy was the Civil War Admiral Andrew H. Foote.
After the Battle of Fort Henry, Foote, a very religious man given to
preaching sermons to his crews, gave a sermon in which he was quoted as
stating, "Let not thy heart be troubled; Ye believe in God, believe also in
the gunboats."

Unfortunately the story is apochryphal, having been perpetrated by Foote's
nine-year-old niece.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 19 01:52:08 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:52:08 -0400
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206182126470.2257589-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.215208.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:29 PM -0400 6/18/02, Mark A Mandel wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Charles Wells wrote:
>
>#I say "dog" with the caught vowel and all other -og words with the cob
>#vowel (not distinguished in my Atlanta-based dialect from the a in father).
>
>Exactly the same for me. My parents were NYC-born, and I grew up
>Westchester and then NYC.
>
>I have picked up an occasional "caught" pronunciation of "frog", which
>as far as I can tell I use only in songs and rhymes where it rhymes with
>"dog" and in what might be broadly called "dialect" in telling jokes and
>stories.
>
Ditto on everything except the frog, which never rhymes with "dog"
for me.  And I suppose nothing else does; funny, I never thought of
"dog" as an "orange" or "silver" word, but I guess it is (for me).

L


From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU  Wed Jun 19 01:53:59 2002
From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:53:59 -0500
Subject: Cup of Joe
In-Reply-To: <4a.d1c76ba.2a4139a0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.205359.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 6/18/02 8:34 PM, James A. Landau at JJJRLandau at AOL.COM wrote:

> In a message dated 06/18/2002 7:58:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes:
>
>> Josephus Daniels (18 May 1862-15 January 1948) was appointed Secretary of
> the
>> Navy by President Woodrow Wilson in 1913. Among his reforms of the Navy
> were
>> inaugurating the practice of making 100 Sailors from the Fleet eligible for
>> entrance into the Naval Academy, the introduction of women into the
> service,
>> and the abolishment of the officers' wine mess. From that time on, the
>> strongest drink aboard Navy ships could only be coffee and over the years,
> a
>> cup of coffee became known as "a cup of Joe".
>
(snip)
>
> One wonders whether the abolition of the officers' wine messes in an
> otherwise dry Navy was a significant enough event to have inspired a nickname
> for coffee.

I've always assumed that 'joe' was directly related to 'java'.

DMLance


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Wed Jun 19 03:02:27 2002
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:02:27 -0500
Subject: silly and off-topic
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.220227.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Ar. USA we have Toad Suck Ferry, that's in addition to "56", Old Joe, and
others
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wendalyn Nichols" <wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: silly and off-topic


> I used to keep a running list of chuckle-inducing UK place names, though
> I've not been able to find it for a while. My favorite is still Nether
Wallop.
>
> Apropos of rounders: when I was working for Longman in the UK,  we used to
> take the odd afternoon off, go to the Old Harlow pub, then play rounders
in
> the Harlow town park. It suited me fine, because you get to run whether
you
> actually hit the ball or not.
>
>
> >There's a village near Gatwick named Pease Pottage, and I can't ride by
it
> >without thinking "Pease Pottage hot, Pease Pottage cold".  Btw, Bill
> >Bryson's _Notes from a Small Island_ has a nice appreciation of weird UK
> >placenames.
> >
> >Lynne
> >
> >
>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Jun 19 04:41:56 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 00:41:56 -0400
Subject: Cup of Joe
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.004156.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Now that I've had a chance to look at RHHDAS:
 
I too always have assumed that there was a connection between joe and java, but the sounds are not terribly close and the only real connections seemed to be contextual.  On the other hand, the theory quoted in my earlier message just has an improbable feel to it.  
 
The first two quotes from RHHDAS may be relevant.  The first quote is from Irwin, American Tramp and Underworld Slang (1930):  "Joe. - Coffee."  So the earliest use isn't in the Navy after all, though of course 1930 is late enough that a Navy derivation is still possible.
 
The second quote, from Erdman's Reserve Officer's Manual (1931):  "Jamoke, Java, Joe.  Coffee.  Derived from the words Java and Mocha, where originally the best coffee came from . . .  Jilpot.  Coffee pot.  A corruption of 'joe-pot.'"  So the connection is also with jamoke, which dates back to 1895 in RHHDAS.  And cuppa jamoke ==> cuppa joe seems an entirely plausible progression.
 
So I guess the Navy's theory can't entirely be ruled out, but a derivation from jamoke seems far more likely.
 
John Baker

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: Donald M Lance [mailto:lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU] 
	Sent: Tue 6/18/2002 9:53 PM 
	To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
	Cc: 
	Subject: Re: Cup of Joe
	

	
	I've always assumed that 'joe' was directly related to 'java'.
	
	DMLance
	
	


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 19 07:04:21 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 03:04:21 EDT
Subject: Air Fries, Fakin' Bacon, Vegannaise, Nayonaise, Conscious Cuisine
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.030421.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

AIR FRIES, FAKIN' BACON, VEGANNAISE, NAYONAISE, CONSCIOUS CUISINE

   I checked out the menu at Better Burger NYC, 565 Third Avenue at 37th
Street, NYC, 10016, (212) 949-7528, www.betterburgernyc.com.  The place
(conceived by Louis Lanza) received some reviews starting November 2001, so
it seems to be new.
   "Air Fries," or "air-baked fries," caught my attention.  I see a new slang
phrase in this:  "Do you want air with that?"
   None of the terms in the subject line above can be found in that great
scholarly work, THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999) by John
Mariani.

AIR FRIES--115 Google hits.  AIR FRY is a trademark registered in 1990 and
1995; AIR FRIES has a first use of 1991; AIRFIRES has a first use of June
1996.

FAKIN' BACON--282 Google hits.  FAKIN' BACON is a trademark with first use on
September 30, 1984.

VEGANNAISE--37 Google hits.  Not trademarked.

NAYONNAISE--287 Google hits.  Not trademarked.

NAYONAISE--460 Google hits.  Trademarked with first use on October 19, 1987.

CONSCIOUS CUISINE--Probably from "health conscious."  188 Google hits.
CONSCIOUS COOKERY (NEW AGE VEGETARIAN CUISINE) (1977) by Ved Kaur Khalia and
CONSCIOUS CUISINE: HEALTHFUL COOKING FOR A LIFE IN BALANCE (2002) by Cary
Neff are two book titles.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
JERUSALEM NEWS (1919-1920)
   The only place that has this in the US seems to be the NYPL annex.  A
librarian was puzzled why an 80-year-old newspaper like this wasn't on
microfilm, and he told me not to get my hopes up.  My annex request came back
today as "not on shelf."   An important early record of 20th-century
Palestine--disappeared?

TED TURNER'S COMMENTS (reply to Fred)
   Not to get too off-topic here, but Turner's comments were totally
off-base.  The homicide/suicide bombers are driven by poverty?  I heard that
with 9-11, and then it turned out that the terrorists were well educated and
well-funded.  I've seen poverty all around the world, but not everyone
murders kids at a Bat Mitzvah.  I'd feel far happier when atrocities like
that are universally condemned in places like the UN.  We can start with
places like the New York Times.


From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST  Wed Jun 19 07:09:53 2002
From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:09:53 +0200
Subject: Ted Turner removes all doubt...
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.090953.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry Popik quotes:
>Daniel Seaman, a spokesman for the Israeli government, said:
>"My only advice to Ted Turner is if people assume you are stupid, it is just
>best to keep your mouth shut rather than open your mouth and confirm everyone
>in that view." (...)
>  ASK YAHOO! discussed this on January 15, 2001
> (http://www.ask.yahoo.com/20010115.html).
>Variously given as "It is better to stay silent and have
>people think you a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt," it's
>been attributed to Abraham Lincoln, George Eliot, Mark Twain, Albert
>Einstein, Groucho Marx, and SIlvan Engel.
 >  A check of the Making of America database didn't turn up anything (...)

A look in the Bible (Proverbs 17, 28) gives you the probable origin of all the variations:
"Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding."

Jan Ivarsson
jan.ivarsson at transedit.st


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 19 07:44:26 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 03:44:26 EDT
Subject: Jack Buck's "That's a winner!"
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.034426.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Sports broadecaster Jack Buck has died.  He wrote an autobiography titled
THAT'S A WINNER!--his catchphrase.  I've been looking around for other
catchphrases, but I can't find them.
   I'll go through his book when I have time.
   From today's NEW YORK TIMES obituary (which re-titles his autobiography
without the punctuation):

Jack Buck, Measured Voice of Cardinals Baseball, Dies at 77

By RICHARD SANDOMIR

ack Buck, whose nearly 50 years as the voice of the St. Louis Cardinals
positioned him to describe the baseball exploits of Stan Musial and Mark
McGwire and to work alongside his son, died yesterday. He was 77.. (...)

Those national jobs led to some of his best-remembered calls, including Game
1 of the 1988 World Series. In the bottom of the ninth inning, Kirk Gibson,
the Dodgers' star slugger, struggling to walk on two injured legs, came up as
a pinch-hitter to face Oakland's Dennis Eckersley.

"Gibson swings and a fly ball to deep right field," Buck said. "This is going
to be a home run! Unbelievable! A home run for Gibson and the Dodgers have
won the game, 5-4. I don't believe what I just saw!" (...)

"The people at CBS know nothing about baseball," Buck wrote in his 1997
autobiography, "That's a Winner" (Sports Publishing).


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Wed Jun 19 09:01:01 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:01:01 +0100
Subject: Cup of Joe
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.100101.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More Navy:

1939 Dorothy Carr ‘Some Annapolis Slang’ in American Speech XIV:1 77 Jamoke,
Java, Joe. Coffee.

Jonathon Green


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 19 11:50:37 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:50:37 -0400
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicons I, II, III
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206182119080.2257589-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.075037.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I always took it as a genitive (and I heard it in the 50's).

dInIs


         [Barry P]
#> #DAILY CANDY LEXICON III (June 17, 2002)
#> #
#> #"I smoke O.P.'s." As in "I smoke other people's cigarettes."

         [Mark M]
#> I heard this one at least as early as late sixties. It reminds me of:

         [Jesse S]
#HDAS has this to 1929, and "O.P." (not with the genitive) from decades
#earlier.

I take the /-z/ as plural, as in "Marlboros", not genitive.

-- Mark M.

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 19 11:53:53 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:53:53 -0400
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206182126470.2257589-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.075353.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Broadly indeed. I always narrowly define dialect speakers as those
who conflate this opposition, thereby revealing a sloppiness of
thought and mind (just like some others have accused /E/-/I/
conflaters, although they conflate this pair only before nasals). I
won't even discuss the obvious laziness and attendant moral depravity
of "horse"-"hoarse" conflaters.

dInIs

>On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Charles Wells wrote:
>
>#I say "dog" with the caught vowel and all other -og words with the cob
>#vowel (not distinguished in my Atlanta-based dialect from the a in father).
>
>Exactly the same for me. My parents were NYC-born, and I grew up
>Westchester and then NYC.
>
>I have picked up an occasional "caught" pronunciation of "frog", which
>as far as I can tell I use only in songs and rhymes where it rhymes with
>"dog" and in what might be broadly called "dialect" in telling jokes and
>stories.
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun 19 12:43:07 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:43:07 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <00d001c2173d$beda0bc0$dd06433f@paulz>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.084307.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Paul M. Johnson wrote:

>In Ar. USA we have Toad Suck Ferry, that's in addition to "56", Old Joe, and
>others

Yes - my favorite place name in the US.

Bethany


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Jun 19 15:08:40 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:08:40 -0400
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <p0432040bb93593ead987@[130.132.231.248]>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.110840.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Laurence Horn wrote:

#At 9:29 PM -0400 6/18/02, Mark A Mandel wrote:
#>
#>I have picked up an occasional "caught" pronunciation of "frog", which
#>as far as I can tell I use only in songs and rhymes where it rhymes with
#>"dog" and in what might be broadly called "dialect" in telling jokes and
#>stories.
#>
#Ditto on everything except the frog, which never rhymes with "dog"
#for me.  And I suppose nothing else does; funny, I never thought of
#"dog" as an "orange" or "silver" word, but I guess it is (for me).

Yesterday on the highway, contemplating the motorcycle in front of me
whose license plate holder read
        [name of town] H-D
 I realized that I also have developed a "caught" pronunciation of
"hog", limited to the same uses as that of "frog" plus the meaning 'big
motorcycle, especially a Harley".

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Jun 19 15:19:29 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:19:29 -0400
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b93620a8a078@[35.10.92.197]>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.111929.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        [Mark M]
#>I have picked up an occasional "caught" pronunciation of "frog", which
#>as far as I can tell I use only in songs and rhymes where it rhymes with
#>"dog" and in what might be broadly called "dialect" in telling jokes and
#>stories.

        [dInIs]
#Broadly indeed. I always narrowly define dialect speakers as those
#who conflate this opposition, thereby revealing a sloppiness of
#thought and mind (just like some others have accused /E/-/I/
#conflaters, although they conflate this pair only before nasals). I
#won't even discuss the obvious laziness and attendant moral depravity
#of "horse"-"hoarse" conflaters.


I meant "dialect" as in "dialect joke"; you *did* understand that,
didn't you? The goal in this register is not to provide dialectological
information but to characterize the character speaking in some way that
will be apparent to the audience. This often involves making a
distinction that the audience makes and the character would merge, in
such a way that the audience perceives the character's phonetic
production as representing the "wrong" member of their phonological
opposition. One classic example in popular perception is the "reversal"
of "er" and "oi" in some NYC and other accents.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large


From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET  Wed Jun 19 14:58:45 2002
From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:58:45 -0400
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicons I, II, III
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.105845.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I heard it in the mid 40s.

Bob

> #> #"I smoke O.P.'s." As in "I smoke other people's cigarettes."
>


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 19 15:52:02 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:52:02 -0400
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206191112140.2289298-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.115202.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark,

Of course I understood; I was just pointing out the socio-regional
provenience of most of those who are the butts of such jokes (and how
incredulous those who are not are when they are told their speech is
somehow not "perfect" - crap I put up with in Michigan, the
locally-attested center of correct US English, every day).

You *did* understand what I was doing too didn't you?

dInIs

         [Mark M]
#>I have picked up an occasional "caught" pronunciation of "frog", which
#>as far as I can tell I use only in songs and rhymes where it rhymes with
#>"dog" and in what might be broadly called "dialect" in telling jokes and
#>stories.

         [dInIs]
#Broadly indeed. I always narrowly define dialect speakers as those
#who conflate this opposition, thereby revealing a sloppiness of
#thought and mind (just like some others have accused /E/-/I/
#conflaters, although they conflate this pair only before nasals). I
#won't even discuss the obvious laziness and attendant moral depravity
#of "horse"-"hoarse" conflaters.


I meant "dialect" as in "dialect joke"; you *did* understand that,
didn't you? The goal in this register is not to provide dialectological
information but to characterize the character speaking in some way that
will be apparent to the audience. This often involves making a
distinction that the audience makes and the character would merge, in
such a way that the audience perceives the character's phonetic
production as representing the "wrong" member of their phonological
opposition. One classic example in popular perception is the "reversal"
of "er" and "oi" in some NYC and other accents.

-- Mark A. Mandel
    Linguist at Large

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Jun 19 15:59:59 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:59:59 -0400
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b9365877bcd8@[35.10.92.197]>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.115959.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

#Mark,
#
#Of course I understood; I was just pointing out the socio-regional
#provenience of most of those who are the butts of such jokes (and how
#incredulous those who are not are when they are told their speech is
#somehow not "perfect" - crap I put up with in Michigan, the
#locally-attested center of correct US English, every day).
#
#You *did* understand what I was doing too didn't you?

I wasn't entirely sure.

I try hard, in all parts of my life, not to make ANYONE the butt of
ridicule on the basis of something they can't help, such as where
they're from, what language they speak, what "race" they are perceived
as belonging to, and so on. (OTOH I enjoy "dumb crook" stories, such as
the bank robber who wrote his holdup note on the back of his own deposit
slip.)


The texts I'm talking about, that I use, aren't meant as putdowns, nor,
I think, perceived as such by the people I tell them to. If I find a
good tale in a collection such as Jane Yolen's collection of folk tales
from around the world, or that classic _Pissing in the Snow_ -- I'm
thinking in particular of "Old Dry Fry", and I don't recall offhand what
source I was reading it from -- and such a tale is strongly rooted in
its place of (apparent) origin, I feel wrong telling it in entirely my
own voice and accent, especially when the tale as written in the text is
all in a style, vocabulary, usages, etc., that ring of the place. I
displace my speech from my real self in what I think will be perceived
as the direction of the place where the story is set. This is part of
the performance.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 19 16:08:31 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:08:31 EDT
Subject: precrime
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.120831.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/18/2002 10:18:07 AM, mkuha at BSU.EDU writes:

<< > How future acts are determined is not stated, but perhaps they have some
> divine assistance. >>

This reminds me of a billboard that stood on the way to the NC coast from
Durham in the 1970s:

"Madam Sheila -- Palm Reader -- Reveals Past, Present and Future"

It is easy enough to make predictions about the future, but anyone who can
make sense of the past--much less the present--has greater powers than I.


From elaine at CHAOS.WUSTL.EDU  Wed Jun 19 16:25:13 2002
From: elaine at CHAOS.WUSTL.EDU (Elaine -HFB- Ashton)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:25:13 -0500
Subject: Jack Buck's "That's a winner!"
In-Reply-To: <94.28024691.2a41905a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.112513.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM [Bapopik at AOL.COM] quoth:
*>   Sports broadecaster Jack Buck has died.  He wrote an autobiography titled
*>THAT'S A WINNER!--his catchphrase.  I've been looking around for other
*>catchphrases, but I can't find them.
*>   I'll go through his book when I have time.
*>   From today's NEW YORK TIMES obituary (which re-titles his autobiography
*>without the punctuation):

I grew up in St. Louis with Jack Buck. He had the most unmistakable voice
in broadcasting and radio will be less without him.

>From the 1985 World Series he is often remembered for the "Go Crazy Folks,
Go Crazy!" jubilant cry at the game and series winning home run.

e.


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 19 16:33:43 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:33:43 -0400
Subject: Jack Buck's "That's a winner!"
In-Reply-To: <20020619162513.GQ8217@chaos.wustl.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.123343.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Elaine -HFB- Ashton said:
>Bapopik at AOL.COM [Bapopik at AOL.COM] quoth:
>*>   Sports broadecaster Jack Buck has died.  He wrote an autobiography titled
>*>THAT'S A WINNER!--his catchphrase.  I've been looking around for other
>*>catchphrases, but I can't find them.
>*>   I'll go through his book when I have time.
>*>   From today's NEW YORK TIMES obituary (which re-titles his autobiography
>*>without the punctuation):
>
>I grew up in St. Louis with Jack Buck. He had the most unmistakable voice
>in broadcasting and radio will be less without him.
>
>>>From the 1985 World Series he is often remembered for the "Go Crazy Folks,
>Go Crazy!" jubilant cry at the game and series winning home run.
>

On ESPN radio this morning, Tony Kornheiser read an absolutely
wonderful obit for him, from the St Louis Post-Dispatch, by Bernie
Miklascz (sp?). And they've played a montage of his famous calls on
the late Sports Center last night.

Alice


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun 19 16:49:22 2002
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:49:22 -0400
Subject: O.P.s
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.124922.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The other night, my wife and I were in a bar where most of the crowd was
in their 20s and 30s. A couple in their late 40s/early 50s walked in and
my wife said: "Ah, there are some other O.P.s." I'd never heard this and
had to ask. "Old people," she sniffed. "I can't believe YOU'VE never
heard this!" She said that maybe it's a musician thing, but her
bandmates use it all the time.

Robert Fitzke wrote:

> I heard it in the mid 40s.
>
> Bob
>
>
>>#> #"I smoke O.P.'s." As in "I smoke other people's cigarettes."
>>
>>
>


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Wed Jun 19 17:02:56 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 18:02:56 +0100
Subject: O.P.s
In-Reply-To: <3D10B612.3000901@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.180256.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Wednesday, June 19, 2002 12:49 pm -0400 Gareth Branwyn
<garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:

> The other night, my wife and I were in a bar where most of the crowd was
> in their 20s and 30s. A couple in their late 40s/early 50s walked in and
> my wife said: "Ah, there are some other O.P.s." I'd never heard this and
> had to ask. "Old people," she sniffed. "I can't believe YOU'VE never
> heard this!" She said that maybe it's a musician thing, but her
> bandmates use it all the time.


Around here, the near-equivalent of 'senior citizens' is OAPs ('old age
pensioners').

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 19 17:09:48 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 13:09:48 EDT
Subject: Newsletter of the American Dialect Society
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.130948.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If you go to the ADS website
www.americandialect.org
you will find in pdf form the latest issue of our newsletter, vol. 34, no. 2,
dated May 2002 but just now finished.

It's also at the printer and will be sent by old-fashioned mail to ADS
members next week, for convenient reference even when your computer is turned
off.

Meanwhile, though, you can take a look at the electronic version for:
- programs for our regional meetings this fall
- last call for papers for our Annual Meeting in Atlanta in January (deadline
Friday, Aug. 16)
- program for our sessions at MLA
- report of a meeting on Pittsburgh dialects
- report of our delegate to the American Council of Learned Societies
- new books by ADS members
- and especially, some details about Volume IV of the Dictionary of American
Regional English, which will be published this fall. and there is a CONTEST:
25 very obscure regional words from that volume to match with their
definitions. The first one to send in all the correct answers will get a free
copy of that book! So don't delay, look at it today!

- Allan Metcalf


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 19 18:31:42 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 14:31:42 EDT
Subject: OED appeals list
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.143142.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The OED Appeals List (at URL http://www.oed.com/public/readers/appeal.htm) is
requesting citations on the following terms, all of which have been discussed
on ADS-L in the past year or so:

D'oh!, Doh! (Expression of frustration used when a person has done something
stupid; popularized by Homer Simpson):
antedate 1993
(now antedated to 1945)


minority n. (member of minority group):
antedate 1976


pear-shaped adj. (= awry, wrong):
any evidence


Wellington (in names of dishes, esp. Beef Wellington):
antedate 1965



wife-beater (sleeveless T-shirt, vest):
antedate 1997

      - Jim Landau


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Jun 19 18:48:20 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 14:48:20 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
In-Reply-To: <f7.1cf64aa2.2a42280e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.144820.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 02:31:42PM -0400, James A. Landau wrote:
> The OED Appeals List (at URL http://www.oed.com/public/readers/appeal.htm) is
> requesting citations on the following terms, all of which have been discussed
> on ADS-L in the past year or so:

Many of these entries are out of date and should have been removed or
updated; I'm not sure why this wasn't done. Barry has posted much
earlier examples of _Beef Wellington,_ for example, that we have at
OED but were not mentioned in this appeals list. (Many of the terms on
that list were from older appeals, by the way.)

Jesse Sheidlower


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Jun 19 19:53:12 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 15:53:12 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.155312.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I noticed that the nominally updated appeal for "to give someone one" (=sex) doesn't recognize my antedating to Gilbert & Sullivan's Iolanthe ("I heard the minx remark, She'd meet him after dark Inside St. James's Park And give him one").

        "Machinable" (capable of being processed by machine) is now antedated to 1957.  Here's an antedating to 1920:  "while all the 400,000 pounds of brass rods which the vendor delivered, except this 27,504 pounds, were readily machined, this remnant was not thus machinable."  Century Electric Co. v. Detroit Copper & Brass Rolling Mills, 264 F. 49, 51 (8th Cir. 1920).

        "Muggins" (card game) asks for any information.  Here's what appears to be an 1881 cite, though it refers to dice rather than cards:  "By act approved March the 5th, 1881, and which takes effect ninety days after adjournment, that body passed an amendment to articles 364 and 365 of the Penal Code, which amendment provides: 'If any person shall bet or wager * * * money or anything of value * * * at any of the following games, viz., poker dice, jack pot, high dice, low dice, low die, dominoes, euchre with dominoes, poker with dominoes, sett with dominoes, muggins, crack-loo, crack or loo, or at any game of any character whatever which can be played with dice or dominoes, or on any table, bank, or alley by whatsoever name the same may be known, and without reference to how the same may be constructed or operated, he shall be fined not less than ten dollars nor more than twenty-five dollars; provided, no person shall be indicted under this section for playing any of said games with dice or dominoes at a private residence.'"  Whitney v. State, 10 Tex. App. 377 (Tex. Ct. App. 1881).

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 2:48 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: OED appeals list


On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 02:31:42PM -0400, James A. Landau wrote:
> The OED Appeals List (at URL http://www.oed.com/public/readers/appeal.htm) is
> requesting citations on the following terms, all of which have been discussed
> on ADS-L in the past year or so:

Many of these entries are out of date and should have been removed or
updated; I'm not sure why this wasn't done. Barry has posted much
earlier examples of _Beef Wellington,_ for example, that we have at
OED but were not mentioned in this appeals list. (Many of the terms on
that list were from older appeals, by the way.)

Jesse Sheidlower


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 19 20:02:44 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 16:02:44 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
In-Reply-To: <f7.1cf64aa2.2a42280e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.160244.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

> D'oh!, Doh! (Expression of frustration used when a person has done something
> stupid; popularized by Homer Simpson):
> antedate 1993
> (now antedated to 1945)

I posted a 1931 usage from Laurel and Hardy on ADS-L in March.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Jun 19 21:48:20 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 14:48:20 -0700
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b93620a8a078@[35.10.92.197]>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.144820.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Call me lazy, but for me, dog, frog, log, bog, cog, epilogue etc., all
rhyme. As to my "attendant moral depravity", "hoarse" is homophonous with
"horse", of course.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> Broadly indeed. I always narrowly define dialect speakers as those
> who conflate this opposition, thereby revealing a sloppiness of
> thought and mind (just like some others have accused /E/-/I/
> conflaters, although they conflate this pair only before nasals). I
> won't even discuss the obvious laziness and attendant moral depravity
> of "horse"-"hoarse" conflaters.
>
> dInIs
>


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 19 22:27:45 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 18:27:45 -0400
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.44.0206190928580.16182-100000@homer31.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.182745.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>A horse is not a hoarse of course of course.....

dInIs



>Call me lazy, but for me, dog, frog, log, bog, cog, epilogue etc., all
>rhyme. As to my "attendant moral depravity", "hoarse" is homophonous with
>"horse", of course.
>
>allen
>maberry at u.washington.edu
>
>
>On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>>  Broadly indeed. I always narrowly define dialect speakers as those
>>  who conflate this opposition, thereby revealing a sloppiness of
>>  thought and mind (just like some others have accused /E/-/I/
>>  conflaters, although they conflate this pair only before nasals). I
>>  won't even discuss the obvious laziness and attendant moral depravity
>>  of "horse"-"hoarse" conflaters.
>>
>>  dInIs
>>

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 19 22:30:23 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 18:30:23 EDT
Subject: Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah (1922)
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.183023.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I asked the women's division of the Reconstructionist College for any "Bat
Mitzvah" citation, and got the following response.  If rrc.edu doesn't have
citations, no one does.  Judith Kaplan Eisenstein's husband was a college
founder.
--Barry Popik
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------

Subj:   Judith Kaplan's bat mitzvah
Date:   6/19/2002 1:47:56 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   <A HREF="mailto:dwaxman at rrc.edu">dwaxman at rrc.edu</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
Sent from the Internet (Details)



Hello-

I am currently writing a graduate seminar paper on the bat mitzvah
ceremony at the Society for the Advancement of Judaism (SAJ), the
synagogue founded by Dr. Mordecai M. Kaplan, Judith Kaplan's father.
There was no secular press coverage of her bat mitzvah, which occurred
on May 5, 1922, though I have not determined if it received coverage in
the Jewish press (Anglo or Yiddish).

The first reference to the "bas mitzvah" ceremony I have thus far
encountered is in minutes of the SAJ Board of Trustees from early
February 1922, shortly after the congregation was organized.  Dr. Kaplan
informed the Board of his intention to introduce such a ceremony and let
them know that he intended that his eldest daughter to be the first, and
the Board assented with great enthusiasm.  I have not yet had an
opportunity to review Kaplan's diary to determine if he wrote about the
ceremony using this terminology earlier than that date, though if you
check in with me again in a few weeks I hope to have made some headway
on the diary.  I can also email you the precise date and language from
the minute books if this is helpful.

The synagogue standardized the usage to the Sephardic pronuciation "bat"
mitzvah some time in the 30s.

Deborah Waxman

Rabbi Deborah Waxman
Assistant to the President and Director of Special Projects
Reconstructionist Rabbinical College
1299 Church Road
Wyncote, PA  19095
(215) 576-0800 x113
(215) 576-6143 (fax)


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Jun 19 22:56:22 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 18:56:22 -0400
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b936b5c59004@[35.12.24.93]>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.185622.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

#>A horse is not a hoarse of course of course.....

......... of *coarse*!

-- Mark M.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Jun 20 12:27:48 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:27:48 -0400
Subject: FW: Death of W. Nelson Francis
In-Reply-To: <3D11C785.4040007@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.082748.0400.>

This message has just been received; I have already answered his query and
so post the message here in lieu of a true announcement. I have copied a
post to LinguistList which includes more information.

Reply-To: John Francis <71600.300 at compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:16:05 -0400
To: gbarrett at americandialect.org
Subject: Death of W. Nelson Francis

My father, W. Nelson Francis, a long-time member of the American Dialect
Society, died on June 14 in Providence, RI. Would you inform me which
office(s) and publication(s) of the ADS should be notified, with postal
and e-mail addresses and phone numbers? Thank you.

John Francis
71600.300 at compuserve.com

.........

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:41:00 +0000
From: Pauline Jacobson <pauline_jacobson at brown.edu>
Subject: W. Nelson Francis

    I am sorry to report the death of W. Nelson Francis this past
Friday (June 14).  Nelson died at home in Providence, at the age of
91.

    Nelson taught at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster,
Pa until coming to the Department of Lingusitics at Brown in 1962.  He
was instrumental in the building of linguistics at Brown, and was
Chair of the department until 1968 until 1975.  After "retiring" in
1975 he nonetheless continued to be active in the department, and in
1987 we drafted him to come back and be Chair of the Department of
Cognitive and Linguistic Sciences.  He continued to teach historical
linguistics at Brown until the early 1990's, when we finally let him
"retire" a second time.  But he continued to be active in the field
until quite recently - doing research, attending conferences, and
writing book reviews for the journal Language.

    Nelson was the co-creator - with Henry Kucera - of the Brown
Corpus.  This pioneering work was instrumental in the development of
the field of Corpus Linguistics, and has had a major impact on the
research directions and techniques in Computational linguistics.
Nelson was also a leading expert on the history of English and on
Dialectology, and was author of, among others, The Structure of
American English; The English Language: An Introduction; and
Dialectology: An Introduction.

    He was a true "Renaissance man" with a variety of interests.
He was an avid sailor, and lived for many years on the Narragansett
Bay where he regularly sailed.  He was also a member of Save the Bay,
the NAACP, and the Urban League of Rhode Island, and was president of
the Providence Shakespearean Society from 1986 to 1990.

    Nelson had a great joie-de-vivre, and was a wonderful
colleague and a wonderful man.  He is survived by his wife Nearlene,
two sons, a daughter, and two grandchildren.  There will be a memorial
service held at a later date.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun 20 13:33:30 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:33:30 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0206191601430.29462-100000@minerva.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.093330.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 04:02:44PM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:
>
> > D'oh!, Doh! (Expression of frustration used when a person has done something
> > stupid; popularized by Homer Simpson):
> > antedate 1993
> > (now antedated to 1945)
>
> I posted a 1931 usage from Laurel and Hardy on ADS-L in March.

Which OED can't cite directly.

Jesse Sheidlower


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 20 14:17:30 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:17:30 EDT
Subject: OED News (June); 'Tis pity, but "Shakespeare" is Ford
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.101730.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED NEWS

   The June 2002 OED News (www.oed.com) is out.  The OED has revised terms
such as "Mitzvah."  It's a blessing to us all.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
"TIS PITY, BUT "SHAKESPEARE" IS FORD

   The great literary sleuth Don Foster was wrong.  A poem he attributed to
Shakespeare is now conceded to have been written by John Ford ('TIS PITY
SHE'S A WHORE).  His "computer literary analysis" was flawed.
   I once e-mailed Foster about David Shulman's finding that CRIES OF NEW
YORK was possibly authored by Washingtopn Irving, but the great man Foster
couldn't e-mail back.
   This thing got huge space in today's NEW YORK TIMES--not because of the
work of other scholars, but because Foster changed his mind.  In fact, the
TIMES couldn't even get the other scholars' names down correctly:

   Professor Vickers, the director of Renaissance studies at the Swiss
Federal Institute of Technology, in Zurich, credits Richard Kennedy, an
independent researcher and author of children's books, as the first to
identify Ford as the author of the poem, in a controversy that raged on
Shakesper for two years after the Foster theory was announced.
   "I was the first one who ever laid onto Ford," Mr. Richards said in a
telephone interview Monday. (...)
   "I thought: Why not Ford?  Let's take a look," Mr. Kennedy continued.

(If the TIMES ever does do a story on "the Big Apple," perhaps I can be "Mr.
Barry" as well as "Mr. Popick"?--ed.)


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 20 14:51:38 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:51:38 EDT
Subject: Best subject line for spam e-mail
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.105138.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A little off-topic perhaps, but I think this deserves some sort of award for
punching all the right buttons:

Get PAID To SHOP and EAT!!

- Allan Metcalf


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 20 19:56:18 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:56:18 EDT
Subject: Best subject line for spam e-mail
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.155618.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/20/2002 10:52:02 AM, AAllan at AOL.COM writes:

<< Get PAID To SHOP and EAT!! >>

Where do i sign up?


From LJT777 at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 20 20:08:17 2002
From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:08:17 EDT
Subject: Best subject line for spam e-mail
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.160817.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The absolute very best line would be "Get PAID To SHOP and EAT after great
SEX!!"


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun 20 21:26:50 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:26:50 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
In-Reply-To: <D9BA04198D5C154F901F45D28E4866B5012D41B8@phex01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.172650.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 03:53:12PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:

> I noticed that the nominally updated appeal for "to give someone
>one" (=sex) doesn't recognize my antedating to Gilbert & Sullivan's
>Iolanthe ("I heard the minx remark, She'd meet him after dark Inside
>St. James's Park And give him one").

This antedating has been entered in OED, and the relevant entry will
probably be published in next quarter's batch.

>  "Machinable" (capable of being processed by machine) is now
> antedated to 1957.  Here's an antedating to 1920: "while all the
> 400,000 pounds of brass rods which the vendor delivered, except this
> 27,504 pounds, were readily machined, this remnant was not thus
> machinable."  Century Electric Co. v. Detroit Copper & Brass Rolling
> Mills, 264 F. 49, 51 (8th Cir. 1920).

Are you sure this doesn't mean 'capable of being cut by machine tools',
which we have to 1917? I can't quite tell from the context, but it seems
as though this is likely.

> "Muggins" (card game) asks for any information.  Here's what appears
>to be an 1881 cite, though it refers to dice rather than cards: "By
>act approved March the 5th, 1881, and which takes effect ninety days
>after adjournment, that body passed an amendment to articles 364 and
>365 of the Penal Code, which amendment provides: 'If any person shall
>bet or wager * * * money or anything of value * * * at any of the
>following games, viz., poker dice, jack pot, high dice, low dice, low
>die, dominoes, euchre with dominoes, poker with dominoes, sett with
>dominoes, muggins, crack-loo, crack or loo, or at any game of any
>character whatever which can be played with dice or dominoes, or on
>any table, bank, or alley by whatsoever name the same may be known,
>and without reference to how the same may be constructed or operated,
>he shall be fined not less than ten dollars nor more than twenty-five
>dollars; provided, no person shall be indicted under this section for
>playing any of said games with dice or dominoes at a private
>residence.'"  Whitney v. State, 10 Tex. App. 377
>(Tex. Ct. App. 1881).

Given that the word "muggins" in this passage follows several other
forms of domino games, I'd be inclined to think that this is OED2's
_muggins_ 2.b. 'a game of dominoes in which players count by
(multiples of) five', which is attested to 1868.

Best

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Thu Jun 20 22:17:09 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:17:09 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
In-Reply-To: <20020620212650.GB29087@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.181709.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Jesse Sheidlower commented on the sense of
"machinable."

I have been wondering about the range of the -able adjectives. The state
of TN sells a wildlife license plate whose slogan I find particularly
obnoxious: Watchable Wildlife.

I suppose that anything visible is "watchable." I also suppose that by
"watchable" the state means something like "worth watching" or "beautiful
to look at" - doesn't seem to work, to me.

Bethany


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Jun 20 22:28:26 2002
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:28:26 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.182826.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'd thought that the earliest cite for 'wife beater' was one that I
found for December 1996.  But, a quick search with Google - Groups found
earlier cites.

Searching on "wife beater" AND shirt ----
>From soc.motss newsgroup, 6 April 1994, [wife-beater undershirt]:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22wife+beater%22+AND+shirt&hl=en&lr=&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1996&selm=2o048p%24cpo%40mizar.usc.edu&rnum=9

Numerous other combinations, with the above search.

Searching on "wife beater t-shirt" ----

>From alt.gothic, there is a 13 March 1996 usage:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22wife+beater+t-shirt%22&hl=en&lr=&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1996&selm=4i79s6%244pm%40vixen.cso.uiuc.edu&rnum=2

>From alt.cosuard, there is a 24 October 1996 usage:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22wife+beater+t-shirt%22&hl=en&lr=&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1996&selm=54oind%24998%40hermes.acs.unt.edu&rnum=1

There are probably earlier cites, with a mention of wife-beater, but in
reference to a garment.

George Cole
Shippensburg University


From savan at EROLS.COM  Thu Jun 20 23:08:32 2002
From: savan at EROLS.COM (Leslie Savan)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:08:32 -0400
Subject: It's a good thing
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.190832.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    The press is quoting Martha Stewart's signature line a lot these
days: "It's a good thing." It's a good way to imply that she's done a
bad thing.
    I THINK I heard "It's a good thing" (with just a dab of irony) long
before it became a Martha shtick. But maybe I'm wrong. And I really have
no sense of the chronology.
    Does anyone know if Stewart "coined" it--as much as one can coin
these four words strung together? Or did she merely popularize it, and
did people started saying it more because of Martha, maybe even feeling
Martha-like as they said it? Or was it already an entrenched popular
phrase, and did Martha just borrow it as her own personal slogan? Any
ideas? Any chronology?


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun 20 23:26:47 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:26:47 -0400
Subject: It's a good thing
In-Reply-To: <3D126070.9560D3BC@erols.com>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.192647.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:08:32PM -0400, Leslie Savan wrote:
>     The press is quoting Martha Stewart's signature line a lot these
> days: "It's a good thing." It's a good way to imply that she's done a
> bad thing.
>     I THINK I heard "It's a good thing" (with just a dab of irony) long
> before it became a Martha shtick. But maybe I'm wrong. And I really have
> no sense of the chronology.
>     Does anyone know if Stewart "coined" it--as much as one can coin
> these four words strung together? Or did she merely popularize it, and
> did people started saying it more because of Martha, maybe even feeling
> Martha-like as they said it? Or was it already an entrenched popular
> phrase, and did Martha just borrow it as her own personal slogan? Any
> ideas? Any chronology?

I believe the locus classicus for this phrase is _1066 and All That,_ the
1930 history parody.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 21 00:20:13 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:20:13 EDT
Subject: Stockpot (1835); Taboulah (1939); Alaska & more
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.202013.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

STOCKPOT

   Today's NEW YORK POST front page talks about "Martha's $63 Million
Stockpot."  Sixty-three million dollars is a good thing!
   "Stockpot" is not mentioned in the all-inclusive and scholarly
ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK (1999) by John Mariani.
   Merriam-Webster has "stockpot" from 1853.  OED has "stockpot" from 1845
and 1853.  OED says "stock pot" is a pot of "soup stock."  However, OED says
that "soup stock" was coined by Charles Dickens in 1861!
   This stuff is really bad.
   The free, online Making of America database (Cornell) has NORTH AMERICAN
REVIEW, April 1835, pg. 373:

   ...but when I declare, that it (mineral water at Wiesbaden--ed.) exactly
resembles very hot chicken broth, I only say, respecting it; and I certainly
do wonder why the common people should be at the inconvenience of making bad
soup, when they can get much better from nature's great stock-pot, the
_Koch-brunnen_ of Wiesbaden.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
TABOULAH

   OED and M-W have 1955 for "tabbouleh."  I had cited a 1942 book by Freya
Stark, that contains her 1928 journal.  This is another cite.  I
unfortunately didn't see "falafel" here.

AN OBSERVER IN PALESTINE
by Winifred Lowe Fox
New York: Fleming H. Revell Co.
1939

Pg. 44:  A cook was serving_ruzz mufelfel_ (boiled rice) to two men...

Pg. 66:  Says Robert Gessner in his book, _Some of My Best Friends Are Jews_
(Farrar & Rinehart)...

Pg. 142:  This (sherbet and wine--ed.) we will drink widt de _taboulah_ our
ladies make ready very soon," said the interpreter.

Pg. 144:  Women of the party slipped away and prepared the _taboulah_.  I
helped them chop parsley, lettuce, celery, onions, green peppers and lemon
pulp; over this they poured lemon juice and olive oil. (...) We dipped tender
lettuce and grape leaves into the mixture according to Arabic style.

Pg. 169:  Regardless of the popularity of _lebanimo_ (meaning a mixture of
kid or goat meat boiled with _leban_ and poured over cooked rice, chopped
onions, mint, and parsley), Jews and Moslems will not eat it because Mosaic
law forbids...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
ALASKA & MORE (O.T., PERSONAL)

   I will be in Alaska from Tuesday, June 25 until July 3rd.  (My plane gets
in early on July 4th, just in time to see New York City destroyed.)
   If I survive, I will then be in Europe from July 6-26th (3 weeks).  I will
attend a legal education seminar on Germany's infamous  Wannsee Conference
sponsored by my law school, held in Berlin on July 7-11th.  See the top of
www.tourolaw.edu.  We'll have a private tour of Berlin's new Jewish Museum
and much more.  Then I'll have about six days, which I'll probably spend in
Vienna eating desserts, or in the Austrian town from which my ancestors were
deported to their deaths.  After that, I'll join an organized tour of the
Ukraine (Kiev, Odessa, Yalta) from July 17-26th (www.mircorp.com, the same
company that did my Georgia/Armenia/Azerbaijan),.
   Then the whole month of August back in New York City adjudicating parking
tickets, and then, in September, it's off to Mongolia and Tibet.
   And that should be about it.


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 21 01:06:42 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 21:06:42 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
In-Reply-To: <20020620212650.GB29087@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.210642.0400.>

RE the following:

>  "Machinable" (capable of being processed by machine) is now
> antedated to 1957.  Here's an antedating to 1920: "while all the
> 400,000 pounds of brass rods which the vendor delivered, except this
> 27,504 pounds, were readily machined, this remnant was not thus
> machinable."  Century Electric Co. v. Detroit Copper & Brass Rolling
> Mills, 264 F. 49, 51 (8th Cir. 1920).

Jesse S said:

>>
Are you sure this doesn't mean 'capable of being cut by machine tools',
which we have to 1917? I can't quite tell from the context, but it seems
as though this is likely.
<<

The above passage undoubtedly refers to the cutting of metal by a machine
tool.  Machinists, engineers, and designers speak of metal being machinable
(in varying degrees) constantly.  And the industry has been around since the
early 19th century at least.

I expect that the technical literature would antedate this by decades.

Frank Abate


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Jun 21 01:31:53 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 21:31:53 -0400
Subject: It's a good thing
In-Reply-To: <20020620232647.GA26559@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.213153.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

#I believe the locus classicus for this phrase is _1066 and All That,_ the
#1930 history parody.

I don't recall "It's a good thing" in that terrific book. I do recall
various things and events being classified as "a Good Thing" or "a Bad
Thing", which is not the same. (Also Good Kings and Bad Kings.)

-- Mark A. Mandel


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 21 01:58:17 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 21:58:17 -0400
Subject: It's a good thing (blues recordings, 1920s)
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.215817.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I did a quick title search.

1890s--"It's a good thing I did'nt hav my gun" is in WILLIAMS & PEMBERTON'S NEW CONSOLIDATED SONGSTER (1890s, undated).

1920s-1930s--"It's a good little thing" is in music collections by Blind Willie Johnson and Blind Willie McTell.

1927-1929--"It's a good thing" is in music collections by Frank Stokes.  One 1970s collection is titled "Frank Stokes: Creator of the Memphis Blues."

1927-1932--"It's a good thing" was recorded by the Beale St. Sheiks.  Same tune as above?  It's in the 1970 collection "Hometown skiffle: early folk blues vol. 2."

1964-1967--"It's a good thing" was recorded by Jimmy Hughes.  Martha might have been exposed to this 1960s NYC "soul music" recording.


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Jun 21 03:22:45 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:22:45 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.232245.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On further consideration, I think your point about "muggins" is well-taken.
 
As to "machinable," the distinction between "cut by machine tools" and "processed by machine" can be quite subtle.  In the 1920 case I quoted, this additional quote should give the necessary context:  "This is an action by the vendee in a written contract of sale, at prices therein stated, of 400,000 pounds of brass rods, of sizes and other qualities therein specified, to recover back the purchase price, $8,506.03, of 27,504 pounds thereof, which the vendee returned, because, as it claims, they were too hard to be cut and made into brass primers by automatic screw machines. The vendor defended on the ground that it was under no obligation to make the rods of such a degree of hardness that they could be so machined."
 
Alternatively, here's a 1928 quote:  "E. W. Bliss Company entered into a contract with the Santo Company, by which the latter agreed to machine-finish a large number of three-inch Russian shrapnel forgings. . . . In point of fact, out of 79,537 forgings delivered, and not rejected, the Santo Company actually in part machined 79,055. Its contention that the forgings were not machinable necessarily fails, in the face of the admitted fact that it did partially machine practically all of them. The final progress report made by the Santo Company to the Bliss Company discloses that the rougher portions of the machining were almost entirely completed by the Santo Company. It failed in performance only when it sought to perform the more delicate final operations on the forgings. It was apparently able to rough-turn and bore the forgings; it was unable to groove and finish-turn them satisfactorily."  In re People by Phillips, 222 A.D. 304, 226 N.Y.S. 175 (N.Y.A.D. 1928) , rev'd, 250 N.Y. 410, 165 N.E. 829 (1929).
 
John Baker
 

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM] 
	Sent: Thu 6/20/2002 5:26 PM 
	To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
	Cc: 
	Subject: Re: OED appeals list
	
	

	On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 03:53:12PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
	
	> I noticed that the nominally updated appeal for "to give someone
	>one" (=sex) doesn't recognize my antedating to Gilbert & Sullivan's
	>Iolanthe ("I heard the minx remark, She'd meet him after dark Inside
	>St. James's Park And give him one").
	
	This antedating has been entered in OED, and the relevant entry will
	probably be published in next quarter's batch.
	
	>  "Machinable" (capable of being processed by machine) is now
	> antedated to 1957.  Here's an antedating to 1920: "while all the
	> 400,000 pounds of brass rods which the vendor delivered, except this
	> 27,504 pounds, were readily machined, this remnant was not thus
	> machinable."  Century Electric Co. v. Detroit Copper & Brass Rolling
	> Mills, 264 F. 49, 51 (8th Cir. 1920).
	
	Are you sure this doesn't mean 'capable of being cut by machine tools',
	which we have to 1917? I can't quite tell from the context, but it seems
	as though this is likely.
	
	> "Muggins" (card game) asks for any information.  Here's what appears
	>to be an 1881 cite, though it refers to dice rather than cards: "By
	>act approved March the 5th, 1881, and which takes effect ninety days
	>after adjournment, that body passed an amendment to articles 364 and
	>365 of the Penal Code, which amendment provides: 'If any person shall
	>bet or wager * * * money or anything of value * * * at any of the
	>following games, viz., poker dice, jack pot, high dice, low dice, low
	>die, dominoes, euchre with dominoes, poker with dominoes, sett with
	>dominoes, muggins, crack-loo, crack or loo, or at any game of any
	>character whatever which can be played with dice or dominoes, or on
	>any table, bank, or alley by whatsoever name the same may be known,
	>and without reference to how the same may be constructed or operated,
	>he shall be fined not less than ten dollars nor more than twenty-five
	>dollars; provided, no person shall be indicted under this section for
	>playing any of said games with dice or dominoes at a private
	>residence.'"  Whitney v. State, 10 Tex. App. 377
	>(Tex. Ct. App. 1881).
	
	Given that the word "muggins" in this passage follows several other
	forms of domino games, I'd be inclined to think that this is OED2's
	_muggins_ 2.b. 'a game of dominoes in which players count by
	(multiples of) five', which is attested to 1868.
	
	Best
	
	Jesse Sheidlower
	OED
	
	


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Jun 21 03:30:47 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:30:47 -0400
Subject: It's a good thing
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.233047.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's a subtle difference in emphases.  "It's a good thing!", meaning the alternative would be very bad, has been around for a long time, as Barry has already shown.  "X was a Good Thing" is in 1066 and All That (which I'm currently reading to my 10-year-old daughter - not an obvious choice, but she seems to like it O.K.).  Martha's by-word is "It's a _good_ thing."
 
I don't know how you would go about antedating distinctions that are this subtle.
 
John Baker
 

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM] 
	Sent: Thu 6/20/2002 7:26 PM 
	To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
	Cc: 
	Subject: Re: It's a good thing
	
	

	On Thu, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:08:32PM -0400, Leslie Savan wrote:
	>     The press is quoting Martha Stewart's signature line a lot these
	> days: "It's a good thing." It's a good way to imply that she's done a
	> bad thing.
	>     I THINK I heard "It's a good thing" (with just a dab of irony) long
	> before it became a Martha shtick. But maybe I'm wrong. And I really have
	> no sense of the chronology.
	>     Does anyone know if Stewart "coined" it--as much as one can coin
	> these four words strung together? Or did she merely popularize it, and
	> did people started saying it more because of Martha, maybe even feeling
	> Martha-like as they said it? Or was it already an entrenched popular
	> phrase, and did Martha just borrow it as her own personal slogan? Any
	> ideas? Any chronology?
	
	I believe the locus classicus for this phrase is _1066 and All That,_ the
	1930 history parody.
	
	Jesse Sheidlower
	OED
	
	


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Fri Jun 21 05:04:31 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:04:31 -0700
Subject: A pair pants/ next store vs next door
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.220431.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A colleague in Creative Writing recently shared these real-life
attestations with me. The "next store" one sounds like one of those
"plausible" stories circulated on the internet, but he swears it really
happened. (The discussion arose because his NYC-born wife used the
form "a scissor".)

        Rudy


On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Robert Houston wrote:

Dear Rudy,

        Reminds me of the time I was trying to get my class to learn to write
"a couple of things," vs. "a couple things." by saying to them, "After all,
you don't say 'a pair pants,' do you?"  One poor kid from NYC looked
stricken and said, "I say that.  Is it wrong?"

And that ranks up there with the freshman girl from Brooklyn who was raised
in an apartment above her parents' Italian grocery store, on a street
where all her neighbors lived in like circumstances.  Until I found that out
about her, I was going nuts trying to figure out why she keep writing
"next store" for "next door."

Best,

Bob


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 21 05:50:31 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 01:50:31 -0400
Subject: Klezmer (M-W 1949, OED no entry?)
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.015031.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   With that "Bas Mitzvah" thing, I told the RRC rabbi to send any other Jewish etymologies.  I decided see OED's "klezmer," an Jewish instrument surely as old as the bagel.  OED has no entry.  I tried "klez*".  It's not there!  THIS IS HORRIBLE!
   Merriam-Webster has 1949 for "klezmer."
   Is anything in the OED files?  ANYTHING at all??
   GLIMPSES OF A STRANGE WORLD (1908) by H. S. Stollnitz has a chapter "Sheka Klezmer," and I'll read it on Saturday.

(I haven't yet checked MOA.)


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Jun 21 12:27:57 2002
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:27:57 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.082757.0400.>

Hi All Men,

"American and British dictionaries have no clear notion of the female
genitals." Visit: www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index/htm. (Hint: click
"Trademark Affidavits").

Comments (private or To List) welcome.

Best regards.

TOM PAIKEDAY
lexicographer & trademark consultant
(announcing website in the works, as above)


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 21 12:56:23 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:56:23 -0400
Subject: Klezmer (M-W 1949, OED no entry?)
In-Reply-To: <4BFA4CFB.395E2600.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.085623.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 01:50:31AM -0400, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    With that "Bas Mitzvah" thing, I told the RRC rabbi to send any other Jewish etymologies.  I decided see OED's "klezmer," an Jewish instrument surely as old as the bagel.  OED has no entry.  I tried "klez*".  It's not there!  THIS IS HORRIBLE!
>    Merriam-Webster has 1949 for "klezmer."
>    Is anything in the OED files?  ANYTHING at all??

Our draft entry for it has a first cite of 1929 in the sense 'Eastern
European Jewish folk instrumentalist', which appears to be Merriam's
first sense as well.

Antedatings welcome, as always.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 21 14:12:21 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:12:21 EDT
Subject: It's a good thing
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.101221.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/20/2002 11:28:29 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes:

<< I don't know how you would go about antedating distinctions that are this
subtle. >>

by watching old movies?


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Fri Jun 21 14:36:08 2002
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:36:08 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.103608.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Some other antedates, from Google's Group search.  Usually, there are
additional antedates at the site, including those for other
words/phrases, but I'm not sure that they represent the usage that is
sought by the OED.  The site that I used is:
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en

George Cole
Shippensburg University
=================

boyf, 20 SEP 1990 (from alt.angst; source includes -- grils; grilf):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22boyf%22&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1993&selm=2050%40amethyst.math.arizona.edu&rnum=18

"Or maybe grils just don't have angst as much, since it's usually
easier for them to find a boyf then it is for guys to find a grilf."
=======================

crimbo, 17 DEC 1984 (from net.jokes):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22crimbo%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1989&selm=4734%40ukc.UUCP&rnum=2

"And a Merry Crimbo to you all."
========================

[Google has numerous cites from 1990]
felching, 17 NOV 1989 (from talk.bizarre, alt.sex):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22felching%22&start=20&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1991&selm=1055%40asuvax.asu.edu&rnum=26

"But felch!  I want to read about felching!"
=========================

gaffer tape, 29 JUN 1983 (from net.movies):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22gaffer+tape%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1988&selm=412%40ihuxl.UUCP&rnum=1

"Gaffer tape is not the same as duct tape.  It looks the same but...."

Gaffer's tape, 27 JUN 1983 (from net.movies):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22gaffer+tape%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1988&selm=1352%40tekid.UUCP&rnum=5

"His assistant . . . is the Gaffer from whence comes the term Gaffer's
tape by which movie and still photographers refer to duct tape."
=========================

mare, as in nightmare, 28 NOV 1994 (from alt.magick.tyagi):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22mare+AND+night%22&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1996&selm=3be119%24bi0%40news1.shell&rnum=13

"Black Moon, Lilith, Mare of Night...." {a recitation}

14 NOV 1995 (from rec.motorcycles):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22mare+AND+night%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1996&selm=Pine.SOL.3.91.951114143302.13387B-100000%40cms1&rnum=10

"Is it my imagination or is parking a bike in London becoming a complete
'mare?"
======================

nummy, 6 FEB 1982 (from net.cooks):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22nummy%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1989&selm=anews.Aeagle.198&rnum=3

"The stuffing is chopped garlic, mozzarella ... and chopped tomatoes.
Sounds potent, but nummy!"
=====================

[perhaps not the usage sought]
nummies, 15 NOV 1986 (from sci.lang):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22nummies%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1989&selm=133%40akgud.UUCP&rnum=1

"...as to why we are language nummies in the USofA."
=====================

Earlier cites, than the following, but I'm not sure of the usage.

palaver, 23 NOV 1989 (from comp.os.vms):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22palaver%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1990&selm=1886%40onion.reading.ac.uk&rnum=3

"I don't think I'd enjoy the palaver of copying via usenet.  Yuch!"
=====================

spoddy, 2 NOV 1990 (from rec.arts.startrek):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22spoddy%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1993&selm=1990Nov2.122726.17172%40csug.rdg.ac.uk&rnum=2

"All I did was knock up a spoddy access program for it."

22 NOV 1991 (from soc.culture.british):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22spoddy%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1993&selm=SAMCINTY.91Nov20122527%40exua.exua.exeter.ac.uk&rnum=1

"Standing in a queue of 50,410 spoddy college kids who are STILL on half
term."
========================


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Jun 21 14:41:27 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:41:27 -0400
Subject: It's a good thing
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.104127.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Well, yes, it is possible.  I meant that I don't know how you would proceed in any systematic manner to look for antedates.  Barry may be up to it, though.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: RonButters at AOL.COM [mailto:RonButters at AOL.COM]
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 10:12 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: It's a good thing


In a message dated 6/20/2002 11:28:29 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes:

<< I don't know how you would go about antedating distinctions that are this
subtle. >>

by watching old movies?


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 21 15:45:28 2002
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:45:28 EDT
Subject: OED appeals-give him one
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.114528.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/20/2002 5:27:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jester at PANIX.COM writes:


> On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 03:53:12PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>
> > I noticed that the nominally updated appeal for "to give someone
> >one" (=sex) doesn't recognize my antedating to Gilbert & Sullivan's
> >Iolanthe ("I heard the minx remark, She'd meet him after dark Inside
> >St. James's Park And give him one").
>
> This antedating has been entered in OED, and the relevant entry will
> probably be published in next quarter's batch.
>
> But the Iolanthe example can't mean 'have sex', can it?  If Gilbert had
> thought it had even a hint of that meaning he never would have put it in
> the play.  I always thought it meant that Iolanthe would 'give him a kiss'.
>   Gilbert prided himself on putting on shows that made the theatre
> respectable as opposed to the French who had all kinds of naughty
> implications in their plays.  He was a pillar of respectability.  Maybe
> it's like the phrase 'to make love' which appears in old songs and meant
> something like 'say romantic things' or maybe 'kiss' but since the 60s at
> least has generally been understood to mean copulation.
>
> Dale Coye
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 21 15:51:34 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:51:34 -0400
Subject: OED appeals-give him one
In-Reply-To: <88.19f3c81c.2a44a418@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.115134.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 11:45:28AM -0400, Dale Coye wrote:
> In a message dated 06/20/2002 5:27:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jester at PANIX.COM writes:
>
>
> > On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 03:53:12PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
> >
> > > I noticed that the nominally updated appeal for "to give someone
> > >one" (=sex) doesn't recognize my antedating to Gilbert & Sullivan's
> > >Iolanthe ("I heard the minx remark, She'd meet him after dark Inside
> > >St. James's Park And give him one").
> >
> > This antedating has been entered in OED, and the relevant entry will
> > probably be published in next quarter's batch.
> >
> > But the Iolanthe example can't mean 'have sex', can it?  If Gilbert had
> > thought it had even a hint of that meaning he never would have put it in
> > the play.  I always thought it meant that Iolanthe would 'give him a kiss'.
> >   Gilbert prided himself on putting on shows that made the theatre
> > respectable as opposed to the French who had all kinds of naughty
> > implications in their plays.  He was a pillar of respectability.  Maybe
> > it's like the phrase 'to make love' which appears in old songs and meant
> > something like 'say romantic things' or maybe 'kiss' but since the 60s at
> > least has generally been understood to mean copulation.

We do have a note discussing this; it could mean "kiss". However, St.
James's Park did have a reputation for being frequented by prostitutes,
so there's the possibility of a double meaning here. If we could find
a clear example from Victorian pornography it would help.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Jun 21 16:03:25 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:03:25 -0400
Subject: OED appeals-give him one
In-Reply-To: <88.19f3c81c.2a44a418@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.120325.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(I'm not sure who wrote what here, since Dale's entire post is quoted
and there is no formal way to tell where Jesse leaves off and Dale
begins.)

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Dale Coye wrote:

#jester at PANIX.COM writes:
#
#> On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 03:53:12PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
#>
#> > I noticed that the nominally updated appeal for "to give someone
#> >one" (=sex) doesn't recognize my antedating to Gilbert & Sullivan's
#> >Iolanthe ("I heard the minx remark, She'd meet him after dark Inside
#> >St. James's Park And give him one").
#>
#> This antedating has been entered in OED, and the relevant entry will
#> probably be published in next quarter's batch.

        [Dale?:]

#> But the Iolanthe example can't mean 'have sex', can it?  If Gilbert had
#> thought it had even a hint of that meaning he never would have put it in
#> the play.  I always thought it meant that Iolanthe would 'give him a kiss'.
#>   Gilbert prided himself on putting on shows that made the theatre
#> respectable as opposed to the French who had all kinds of naughty
#> implications in their plays.  He was a pillar of respectability.  Maybe
#> it's like the phrase 'to make love' which appears in old songs and meant
#> something like 'say romantic things' or maybe 'kiss' but since the 60s at
#> least has generally been understood to mean copulation.

How does that square* with the name of the main character in "Patience",
who is a caricature of Oscar Wilde?: Bunthorne.

Okay, I'll take a step backward here. I don't remember whether I have
checked the OED (which I'm away from right now) for "bun(s)" =
'buttocks' or "prick" (or similar words) = 'penis'. If both these are
attested in the period (1881:
http://www.nodanw.com/shows_p/patience.htm), I would call that strong
evidence that *somebody* was labeling the character 'participant in anal
intercourse'. That somebody needn't have been Gilbert; maybe someone
suggested the name and he was too innocent/highminded/unaware to catch
the implication. -- Or of course, the component meanings may not have
been (provably) in use at the time; or even if they were, it could have
been (unprovably) coincidence.

* But none of this really affects the understanding of "give him one".

-- Mark A. Mandel


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Jun 21 16:11:14 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:11:14 -0400
Subject: OED appeals-give him one
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.121114.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I'm not sure how far to take an argument from presumed intention.  St. James's Park is said to have had a reputation for rogues and prostitutes, so "have sex" is certainly a plausible take on the line's meaning. Like other respectable men of the period, Gilbert knew a thing or two about London's underworld.  On the other hand, if he were challenged, I'm sure he would have said that he meant only a kiss, just as he denied that there was any connection between his Ruler of the Queen's Navee in H.M.S. Pinafore who had never been to sea and the similar real-life First Lord of the Admiralty.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Coye [mailto:Dalecoye at AOL.COM]
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 11:45 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: OED appeals-give him one

> On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 03:53:12PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>
> > I noticed that the nominally updated appeal for "to give someone
> >one" (=sex) doesn't recognize my antedating to Gilbert & Sullivan's
> >Iolanthe ("I heard the minx remark, She'd meet him after dark Inside
> >St. James's Park And give him one").
>
> This antedating has been entered in OED, and the relevant entry will
> probably be published in next quarter's batch.
>
> But the Iolanthe example can't mean 'have sex', can it?  If Gilbert had
> thought it had even a hint of that meaning he never would have put it in
> the play.  I always thought it meant that Iolanthe would 'give him a kiss'.
>   Gilbert prided himself on putting on shows that made the theatre
> respectable as opposed to the French who had all kinds of naughty
> implications in their plays.  He was a pillar of respectability.  Maybe
> it's like the phrase 'to make love' which appears in old songs and meant
> something like 'say romantic things' or maybe 'kiss' but since the 60s at
> least has generally been understood to mean copulation.
>
> Dale Coye
>


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 21 16:09:38 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:09:38 EDT
Subject: A pair pants/ next store vs next door
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.120938.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/21/02 1:04:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU writes:

> The "next store" one sounds like one of those
>  "plausible" stories circulated on the internet, but he swears it really
>  happened.  <snip>
>
>  On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Robert Houston wrote:
>
>  Dear Rudy,
>
>          Reminds me of the time I was trying to get my class to learn to
> write
>  "a couple of things," vs. "a couple things." by saying to them, "After all,
>  you don't say 'a pair pants,' do you?"  One poor kid from NYC looked
>  stricken and said, "I say that.  Is it wrong?"

An elementary school teacher of mine told about the kid from some backwoods
area whose grammar was, shall we say, somewhere below substandard.  One day
he got an A on a (presumably multiple choice) English test.  When asked how
he did it, he said he looked at all the answers and picked the one that
sounded least right to him.

>  And that ranks up there with the freshman girl from Brooklyn who was raised
>  in an apartment above her parents' Italian grocery store, on a street
>  where all her neighbors lived in like circumstances.  Until I found that
out
>  about her, I was going nuts trying to figure out why she keep writing
>  "next store" for "next door."

Unlike alligators in the New York sewers, I cannot see anything implausible
in this story.  As a kid I was convinced "next store" was the proper term and
had to be talked into believing it was "next door".  I was also sure that
people said they were going to do such and such "the safternoon".

                        - Jim Landau (hopefully with adult speech patterns
now)

P.S.  Did I just say that New York alligators don't believe people live over
grocery stores?


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Fri Jun 21 16:36:36 2002
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:36:36 -0400
Subject: Klezmer (M-W 1949, OED no entry?)
In-Reply-To: <20020621125623.GA19100@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.123636.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:56 AM 6/21/02 -0400, BArry Popik wrote:
>  I decided see OED's "klezmer," an Jewish instrument [sic] surely as old
> as the bagel.  OED has no entry.  I tried "klez*".  It's not there!  THIS
> IS HORRIBLE!


The first cite in the New York Times is in 1944, Dec. 4, "The first of a
series of five programs on 'Folk Art in Jewish Tradition,' to be directed
by Corinne Cochem and sponsored by the Seminary School of Jewish Studies,
will be given at 8:45 o'clock tonight in the Unterberg Auditorium and 122d
Street. Tonight's program will be 'At Jewish Weddings,' consisting of
excerpts from wedding songs sung by the Klezmer, itinerant musicians in
Eastern Europe who played at wedding parties. Miss Cochem will teach the
audience the Shers, which are traditional folk dances for weddings."

I know it doesn't antedate the draft the OED has going but, and forgive me
if this is overstepping my boundaries, it seems unsurprising to me that a
Yiddish word that doesn't show up in a publication that serves as the paper
for a city with a population of 1,750,000 mostly Ashkenazi Jews (1914 est.
today's slightly less at 1.5 million) until 1944, is absent from a
publication that hails from a country that has a current Jewish population
of roughly  .4 %

It is in the New Oxford American.

Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 21 16:49:41 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:49:41 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <3D131BCD.FB0A262D@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.124941.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Thomas Paikeday wrote:

> "American and British dictionaries have no clear notion of the female
> genitals." Visit: www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index/htm. (Hint: click
> "Trademark Affidavits").

I couldn't access this page.

Is the URL right?

-- Steve


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 21 16:55:35 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:55:35 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0206211248500.19423-100000@panix1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.125535.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 12:49:41PM -0400, Steve Kl. wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
>
> > "American and British dictionaries have no clear notion of the female
> > genitals." Visit: www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index/htm. (Hint: click
> > "Trademark Affidavits").
>
> I couldn't access this page.
>
> Is the URL right?

No, it should end in "index.htm"
                           ^

JTS


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Jun 21 17:09:44 2002
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:09:44 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic (SORRY ABOUT ERROR)
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.130944.0400.>

Hi All!

Thanks, Grant, for the message. The correct URL is:

www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index.htm.

My last goof of the day, I hope. Sorry about that. A consultant in New
York was also helpful.

Thanks again.

TOM PAIKEDAY

Grant Barrett wrote:
>
> On 6/21/02 08:27, "Thomas Paikeday" <t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA> wrote:
>
> > Hi All Men,
> >
> > "American and British dictionaries have no clear notion of the female
> > genitals." Visit: www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index/htm. (Hint: click
>
> That URL does not work for me.
>
> --
>
> Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
> gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
> http://www.worldnewyork.org/


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 21 17:06:54 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:06:54 EDT
Subject: OED appeals-give him one
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.130654.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/21/02 12:03:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mam at THEWORLD.COM writes:

>  ...the name of the main character in "Patience",
>  who is a caricature of Oscar Wilde?: Bunthorne.
>
>  Okay, I'll take a step backward here. I don't remember whether I have
>  checked the OED (which I'm away from right now) for "bun(s)" =
>  'buttocks' or "prick" (or similar words) = 'penis'. If both these are
>  attested in the period (1881:
>  http://www.nodanw.com/shows_p/patience.htm), I would call that strong
>  evidence that *somebody* was labeling the character 'participant in anal
>  intercourse'. That somebody needn't have been Gilbert; maybe someone
>  suggested the name and he was too innocent/highminded/unaware to catch
>  the implication. -- Or of course, the component meanings may not have
>  been (provably) in use at the time; or even if they were, it could have
>  been (unprovably) coincidence.

Several objections.

Patience was first performed in 1881 and Oscar Wilde was not publicly accused
of "sodomy" until the mid 1890's (his court trials were in 1895, and were the
result of a homosexual affair which did not begin until 1891.)

Who said Bunthorne was a caricature of Wilde?  The actor who first played
Bunthorne was made up to look like Wilde's colleague in the Aesthetic
Movement, John Ruskin, including Ruskin's characteristic shock of white hair.
 Contemporary opinion was that the character of Reginald Grosvenor
represented Wilde.

Wilde liked the play.  And of course the play did much to advertise the
Aesthetic Movement, which many in 1881 had thought to be a dying movement.

If you insist that "bunthorne" = buttocks + prick, then consider that the
origin of "Patience" was one of GIlbert's Bab Ballads entitled "The Rival
Curates".  Gilbert apparently decided that religion was too delicate a topic
for his satire, so he switched to poets (and Army officers).  If Gilbert were
trying to slip in something about anal intercourse,  churchmen were a much
more obvious target than poets.

      From the vicarage down in the plain
      Came a cry of extraordinary pain
           Goodness gracious!
           Has Father Ignatius
      Forgotten the Bishop's piles again?

Actually any all-male lifestyle group (including Heavy Dragoons) gets accused
of mass homosexuality:

      The juniors up at Yale get no tail
      The juniors up at Yale get no tail
            To alleviate their yen
            They go out with Harvard men
      The juniors up at Yale get no tail

      The sophomores up at Yale get no tail
      The sophomores up at Yale get no tail
            So half the freshman class
            Has to take it up the ass
      The sophomores up at Yale get no tail
                   (same tume as for "The Great Historical Bum")

Above are quoted from memory----I can't remember what was sung about the
seniors.

             - Jim Landau

P.S. The title line can be construed as "he's earned an appeal to Oxford, so
give him one".


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Jun 21 17:26:20 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:26:20 -0400
Subject: OED appeals-give him one
In-Reply-To: <d2.19e0f1bb.2a44b72e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.132620.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

#Several objections.

I am answered.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Jun 21 17:43:31 2002
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:43:31 -0400
Subject: OED appeals-give him one
In-Reply-To: <88.19f3c81c.2a44a418@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.134331.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:45 AM 6/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 06/20/2002 5:27:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>jester at PANIX.COM writes:
>
>
> > On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 03:53:12PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
> >
> > > I noticed that the nominally updated appeal for "to give someone
> > >one" (=sex) doesn't recognize my antedating to Gilbert & Sullivan's
> > >Iolanthe ("I heard the minx remark, She'd meet him after dark Inside
> > >St. James's Park And give him one").
> >
> > This antedating has been entered in OED, and the relevant entry will
> > probably be published in next quarter's batch.
> >
> > But the Iolanthe example can't mean 'have sex', can it?  If Gilbert had
> > thought it had even a hint of that meaning he never would have put it in
> > the play.  I always thought it meant that Iolanthe would 'give him a kiss'.
> >   Gilbert prided himself on putting on shows that made the theatre
> > respectable as opposed to the French who had all kinds of naughty
> > implications in their plays.  He was a pillar of respectability.  Maybe
> > it's like the phrase 'to make love' which appears in old songs and meant
> > something like 'say romantic things' or maybe 'kiss' but since the 60s at
> > least has generally been understood to mean copulation.
> >
> > Dale Coye

As it happens, I rented the '50s movie "Picnic" a few days ago and was
struck by a conversation between the lead female (Kim Novak) and her
mother.  The mother asks (about the drifter, played by Bill Holden), "Does
he make love?" (not "to you," as I recall)  "Well, we kiss a little" (I
paraphrase).  "I mean, does he want to do anything more?" etc. etc.  The
whole movie seemed terribly dated--and I used to think it was the epitome
of romance. . . .

BTW, "drifter" reminds me of "Grifter."  I never saw that movie; what the
heck is a grifter?

_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Fri Jun 21 19:04:07 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:04:07 -0500
Subject: comparatives of front and back
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.140407.0500.>

When describing the relative positions of vowels, I commonly use
"fronter" and "backer" as comparatives (e.g., /i/ is fronter than /I/).
Students often react to this usage as if I'm being cute. A non-linguist
copyeditor has queried these words. I thought this usage was common in
phonetics.  Can anyone confirm that ?


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Jun 21 20:49:15 2002
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 16:49:15 -0400
Subject: "Watchable wildlife"
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.164915.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Watchable wildlife" means "wildlife available for watching"
or "accesible to wildlife watchers".  One guidebook company (Falcon, of
Helena, Mont.) publishes "The Watchable wildlife series" of state
guidebooks, for instance "West Virginia wildlife viewing guide" by Mark
Damian Duda.  This draws the subject labels "Wildlife viewing sites--
West Virginia--Guidebooks" and "Wildlife watching--  West Virginia--
Guidebooks".  Another title in the series -- apparently 25 to date --
is Tennessee wildlife viewing guide, by Paul B. Hamel, publ.
1993.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:17 pm
Subject: Re: OED appeals list

> On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Jesse Sheidlower commented on the sense of
> "machinable."
>
> I have been wondering about the range of the -able adjectives. The
> stateof TN sells a wildlife license plate whose slogan I find
> particularlyobnoxious: Watchable Wildlife.
>
> I suppose that anything visible is "watchable." I also suppose
> that by
> "watchable" the state means something like "worth watching" or
> "beautifulto look at" - doesn't seem to work, to me.
>
> Bethany
>


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Fri Jun 21 20:55:18 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 16:55:18 -0400
Subject: "Watchable wildlife"
In-Reply-To: <25a203f25a7aad.25a7aad25a203f@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.165518.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, George Thompson wrote:

>"Watchable wildlife" means "wildlife available for watching"
>or "accesible to wildlife watchers".  One guidebook company (Falcon, of

Means that to whom? The license plates have photos of birds on them. It
would never have occurred to me that the legislature meant "accessible to
wildlife watchers."

Bethany


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Jun 21 23:43:32 2002
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 19:43:32 -0400
Subject: "Watchable wildlife"
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.194332.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One never knows what a legislature intends.  But among wildlife-
voyeurs, of which I am one, I think the phrase is taken to mean that
whereas most wildlife, other than birds, is elusive and seldom seen,
there are some spots where the chances of seeing an interesting critter
is better than usual.  I recall being referred to the town dump in
Kokajo, Maine, to see black bears -- it's where the family spent my
daughter's 16th birthday evening, in fact -- and a road in the
Greenville area impregnated with salt that attracted moose.  I don't
actually own any of the "watchable wildlife" guides, but I have I think
glanced over them in wildlife refuge shops and believe that this is
their purpose.  It seems that the Tennessee legislature is trying to
lure tourists with a doubtful claim that the entire state swarms with
critters?

GAT (the elusive librarian who has made himself temporarily accessible;
back to my den)


George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU>
Date: Friday, June 21, 2002 4:55 pm
Subject: Re: "Watchable wildlife"

> On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, George Thompson wrote:
>
> >"Watchable wildlife" means "wildlife available for watching"
> >or "accesible to wildlife watchers".  One guidebook company
> (Falcon, of
>
> Means that to whom? The license plates have photos of birds on
> them. It
> would never have occurred to me that the legislature meant
> "accessible to
> wildlife watchers."
>
> Bethany
>


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Sat Jun 22 01:44:40 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 21:44:40 -0400
Subject: "Watchable wildlife"
In-Reply-To: <25faff425fb595.25fb59525faff4@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.214440.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, George Thompson wrote:

>One never knows what a legislature intends.  But among wildlife-
>voyeurs, of which I am one, I think the phrase is taken to mean that
>whereas most wildlife, other than birds, is elusive and seldom seen,
>there are some spots where the chances of seeing an interesting critter
>is better than usual.  I recall being referred to the town dump in

Interesting. Don't go back into hiding yet, please. Do wildlife voyeurs
actually use the word "watchable" that way - or do you just accept that
others do? I.e., would you say that such-a-such a place has lots of
"watchable wildlife"?

Bethany


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 22 01:49:45 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 21:49:45 EDT
Subject: "Watchable wildlife"
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.214945.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/21/2002 7:43:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes:

> GAT (the elusive librarian who has made himself temporarily accessible;
>  back to my den)

If you are back in your den, does that mean you are no longer watchable?


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Jun 22 04:25:34 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 21:25:34 -0700
Subject: Fronter and Backer
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.212534.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Matthew,

        I'd certainly say this in class, right along with higher and
lower, but some intuition tells me I probably wouldn't write it, resorting
instead to the awkward locution "further front" and "further back". I
certainly could not bring myself to use "more front" or "more back". Larry
will probably tell us that "front" and "back" are not gradable per se. It
is interesting that one dimension would be gradadable and another not.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention (it's always interesting how
out-of-awareness so much of language is, even for linguists).

        Rudy

P.S. I do use (in class) Haj Ross' famous "squish" comparisons: some words
are nounier and other words are verbier.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Jun 22 04:33:00 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 21:33:00 -0700
Subject: next store (= next door)
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.213300.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks to Jim Landau for confirming "next store" and adding "the
safternoon".  It reminded me of a phrase my mother used to use, saying
that someone putting on airs was acting like  "Mrs. Astor's poodledog".
I interpreted this mentally as "Mrs. Astrous Poodledog", imagining this
ostentatiously wealthy woman, and only a few years ago, when it came
to mind, I suddenly realized the misanalysis.

        Rudy


From fukaya at USC.EDU  Sat Jun 22 05:04:27 2002
From: fukaya at USC.EDU (Teruhiko Fukaya)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 22:04:27 -0700
Subject: a Yankee dime
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.220427.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I came across a sentence like the following in a novel: "He didn't give a Yankee dime about anyone
but himself."  From the context, it apparently means, "He didn't care about anyone but himself."
Since I couldn't find the expression in the dictionaries I have, I ran some search on the Internet
and found out that the expression "a Yankee dime" means "a quick kiss on the cheek" in the Southern
dialect, but nowhere could I find an explanation why it came to mean that.  Does anyone know the
etymology of this expression by any chance?  Also, how common is the expression in the South?  Thank
you in advance for your help.

Teru


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Sat Jun 22 09:33:53 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:33:53 +0100
Subject: OED appeals-give him one
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.103353.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bunthorne: Jesse may have dealt with this already (my email has been down)
but _bun(s)_ does not exist as _buttock(s)_ in slang at late 19C. Neither
Farmer and Henley nor Barrere and Leland list it. It does mean the tail of a
hare in Scotland/northern dialect (as cited in OED2), so Gilbert might have
been suggesting that (and 'tail' in sexual contexts has of course a much
older pedigree) - but I for one seriously doubt it.

As for 'give him one' = sex in 19C. Again, the usage seems to have eluded
the two major dictionaries of the 1880s-1900s although there are an number
of 'give her . . .' phrases denoting intercourse. And given the mores
(general and those credited to Gilbert) it does seem somewhat ahead of its
time. As Jesse says, what we need is a good attestation from contmporary
pornography. But while I have, for starters, read all 1000+ pages of _My
Secret Life_ - sadly it isn't there.

Jonathon Green


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun 22 11:53:40 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 07:53:40 -0400
Subject: Fronter and Backer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0206212117350.21773-100000@bast.u.arizona.ed u>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.075340.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>         I'd certainly say this in class, right along with higher and
>lower, but some intuition tells me I probably wouldn't write it, resorting
>instead to the awkward locution "further front" and "further back". I
>certainly could not bring myself to use "more front" or "more back". Larry
>will probably tell us that "front" and "back" are not gradable per se. It
>is interesting that one dimension would be gradadable and another not.
>Thanks for bringing this to our attention (it's always interesting how
>out-of-awareness so much of language is, even for linguists).

I think "fronter" and "backer" in their usual general senses are analogous
not to "higher" and "lower" but rather to "topper" and "bottomer".

I think the phonetics use is a special one, and the comparatives here don't
seem so wrong to me.

-- Doug Wilson


From LJT777 at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 22 14:09:16 2002
From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:09:16 EDT
Subject: a Yankee dime
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.100916.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I grew up in the South (1950's) hearing my mother, a Mississippian, use this
expression occasionally to mean that something was worth little or nothing,
but I have since asked others from the region if they were familiar with it
and been told no.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 22 14:33:23 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:33:23 EDT
Subject: a Yankee dime
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.103323.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/22/2002 1:15:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fukaya at USC.EDU writes:

> I came across a sentence like the following in a novel: "He didn't give a
> Yankee dime about anyone
>  but himself."  From the context, it apparently means, "He didn't care
about
> anyone but himself."
>  Since I couldn't find the expression in the dictionaries I have, I ran
some
> search on the Internet
>  and found out that the expression "a Yankee dime" means "a quick kiss on
the
> cheek" in the Southern
>  dialect, but nowhere could I find an explanation why it came to mean that.

A long-shot guess:  "Yankee dime" is a polite rendering of the old expression
"tinker's damn" (sometimes written "tinker's dam") as in "not worth a
tinker's damn", for which the OED2 gives an 1839 citation from, of all
people, Thoreau.  Another variation is "I don't give a tinker's damn" which
is close to your quote, with "Yankee dime" a phonetically plausible but
dubious bowdlerization.

Interestingly, I have heard "Continental damn", apparently a conflation of
"not worth a Continental" and "tinker's damn".

      James A. Landau


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 22 14:34:19 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:34:19 -0400
Subject: a Yankee dime
In-Reply-To: <173.a269028.2a45df0c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.103419.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Could this be a sarcastic invention based on the old "Not worth a
confederate [money unit]" and the older "Not worth a continental
[money unit]," although the latter has the money unit as optional?

dInIs

>I grew up in the South (1950's) hearing my mother, a Mississippian, use this
>expression occasionally to mean that something was worth little or nothing,
>but I have since asked others from the region if they were familiar with it
>and been told no.

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 22 14:37:21 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:37:21 -0400
Subject: a Yankee dime
In-Reply-To: <1bf.576add6.2a45e4b3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.103721.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As I recall "tinker's dam" is originally "dam" (not "damn"), and
referred to the worthless, temporary wax "dam" that tinker's used in
their soldering work.

dInIs

>In a message dated 06/22/2002 1:15:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>fukaya at USC.EDU writes:
>
>>  I came across a sentence like the following in a novel: "He didn't give a
>>  Yankee dime about anyone
>>   but himself."  From the context, it apparently means, "He didn't care
>about
>>  anyone but himself."
>>   Since I couldn't find the expression in the dictionaries I have, I ran
>some
>>  search on the Internet
>>   and found out that the expression "a Yankee dime" means "a quick kiss on
>the
>>  cheek" in the Southern
>>   dialect, but nowhere could I find an explanation why it came to mean that.
>
>A long-shot guess:  "Yankee dime" is a polite rendering of the old expression
>"tinker's damn" (sometimes written "tinker's dam") as in "not worth a
>tinker's damn", for which the OED2 gives an 1839 citation from, of all
>people, Thoreau.  Another variation is "I don't give a tinker's damn" which
>is close to your quote, with "Yankee dime" a phonetically plausible but
>dubious bowdlerization.
>
>Interestingly, I have heard "Continental damn", apparently a conflation of
>"not worth a Continental" and "tinker's damn".
>
>       James A. Landau

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 22 14:51:10 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:51:10 EDT
Subject: Fronter and Backer
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.105110.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/22/2002 12:25:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU writes:

>  Larry will probably tell us that "front" and "back" are not gradable per
se. It
>  is interesting that one dimension would be gradadable and another not.

Yes, the dimension is gradable: "further forward" and "further back".  You
can also say "more forward" and "more backward" but "backward" has all sorts
of other meanings, e.g. retarded, backwoods, behind-the-times, underdeveloped
(referring to countries,the long-standing PC term is "developing").  Or you
could use the nautical terms "forward" and "aft" (with superlatives
"forwardmost" and "aftermost"), but I'm sure even a freshman linguistics
class would find that strange.  Hmm, It would make a great skit at the MLA
convention to talk about "bower vowels" and "sterner vowels".

If you think the front-back dimension is clumsy when it comes to gradation,
consider the left-right dimension.  Someone who speaks out of the side of his
mouth has "liberal" and "conservative" phonemes?  Or "starboarder" and
"porter" phoenemes and can be said to have a bad case of the yaws?

      Jim Landau


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 22 15:00:50 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:00:50 -0400
Subject: Fronter and Backer
In-Reply-To: <69.28f074de.2a45e8de@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.110050.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hmm. It would make a great hit at MLA just to mention vowels. I
reckon you meant ADS or LSA.

Once I remember working a crossword puzzle on a long international
flight. I usually hop through them fast,  getting the really easy
ones (like What's the mid-central lax vowel", actually one of the
first questions in a Playboy "All-time hard crossword puzzle of
several years ago). When I hit a three-letter slot, the clue for
which was "Linguists' Org." I promptly put in LSA. Later words showed
I was wrong, and I discovered, much to my amusement, that they wanted
MLA.

When I was learning Xhosa, I asked the instructor if the lateral
click was made on one side or the other (after I discovered I could
do it only on the left). He thought it was a strange question. Port
and starboard laterality never occurred to me (not to mention
"porter" and "starboarder").

dInIs

>In a message dated 06/22/2002 12:25:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU writes:
>
>>   Larry will probably tell us that "front" and "back" are not gradable per
>se. It
>>   is interesting that one dimension would be gradadable and another not.
>
>Yes, the dimension is gradable: "further forward" and "further back".  You
>can also say "more forward" and "more backward" but "backward" has all sorts
>of other meanings, e.g. retarded, backwoods, behind-the-times, underdeveloped
>(referring to countries,the long-standing PC term is "developing").  Or you
>could use the nautical terms "forward" and "aft" (with superlatives
>"forwardmost" and "aftermost"), but I'm sure even a freshman linguistics
>class would find that strange.  Hmm, It would make a great skit at the MLA
>convention to talk about "bower vowels" and "sterner vowels".
>
>If you think the front-back dimension is clumsy when it comes to gradation,
>consider the left-right dimension.  Someone who speaks out of the side of his
>mouth has "liberal" and "conservative" phonemes?  Or "starboarder" and
>"porter" phoenemes and can be said to have a bad case of the yaws?
>
>       Jim Landau

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Sat Jun 22 15:15:39 2002
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:15:39 -0400
Subject: tangent to fronter/backer
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.111539.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I make the speaking-to-horses click on the right side, but I'm right handed:
do left-handers click on the left side?
_________________________________
"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
--Albert Einstein


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Jun 22 15:39:25 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 08:39:25 -0700
Subject: a Yankee dime
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b93a3b94a1f9@[35.12.21.146]>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.083925.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> As I recall "tinker's dam" is originally "dam" (not "damn"), and
> referred to the worthless, temporary wax "dam" that tinker's used in
> their soldering work.

No, "damn" appears in 1839, while "dam" is 1877. And "tinker's curse" older
than either at 1824. "Dam," and the accompanying explanations, are a
bowdlerization.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 22 15:47:41 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:47:41 EDT
Subject: tangent to fronter/backer
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.114741.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/22/2002 11:14:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
einstein at FROGNET.NET writes:

> I make the speaking-to-horses click on the right side, but I'm right handed:
>  do left-handers click on the left side?

Not handedness.  Race.

Yes, race.

The white man (and white women, too) mounts horses from the left side.  I am
told the reason is that from the left allows one to use one's "strong right
arm" to aid in mounting.  Hence a white would "make the speaking-to-horses
click on the right side" since s/he is to the left and the horse is to the
right.

For some reason that no one has ever explained to me, Native Americans (or at
least the Plains Indians) always mounted a horse from the right.  And a
horse, I am told, once trained to being mounted from one side, will not let a
rider mount from the other side.

On Jeopardy once there were two white and one African-American contestants.
The question, answered by one of the whites, was about which side to mount a
horse from.  Alex Trebek accepted "what is from the left".  The correct
answer should have been "what is from the left if you're white, from the
right if you're a Native American, and you'll have to ask [the
African-American contestant] what he does."

By the way, my sister would like to know who Alex Trebek's dialect coach is.

     - Jim Landau

PS.  About identifying the "MLA" as a linguistics society---I recalled that
the ADS holds joint meetings with someone, and not having the newsletter
handy I couldn't look up who it was,  but the initials "MLA" came to mind.
This brings up a question: if there really were a "Modern Linguistics
Association", would it allow discussions of proto-Indo-European?


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 22 15:50:31 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:50:31 -0400
Subject: tangent to fronter/backer
In-Reply-To: <006f01c219ff$ab5626a0$3e0103d8@dbergdah1>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.115031.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I make my horse-click (and my Xhosa lateral click) on the left, and I
am right-handed. I find it difficult if not impossible to do on the
right.

dInIs

>I make the speaking-to-horses click on the right side, but I'm right handed:
>do left-handers click on the left side?
>_________________________________
>"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
>--Albert Einstein

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 22 15:55:22 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:55:22 -0400
Subject: tangent to fronter/backer
In-Reply-To: <a8.d61ae21.2a45f61d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.115522.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The ADS has now for several years met jointly with the LSA; it did
indeed formerly meet with the MLA. ADS still sponsors a section at
MLA (as it does at other meetings of related societies, e.g., NCTE).

dInIs


>
>PS.  About identifying the "MLA" as a linguistics society---I recalled that
>the ADS holds joint meetings with someone, and not having the newsletter
>handy I couldn't look up who it was,  but the initials "MLA" came to mind.
>This brings up a question: if there really were a "Modern Linguistics
>Association", would it allow discussions of proto-Indo-European?

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sat Jun 22 16:15:25 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 12:15:25 -0400
Subject: tangent to fronter/backer
In-Reply-To: <006f01c219ff$ab5626a0$3e0103d8@dbergdah1>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.121525.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David asks:
>I make the speaking-to-horses click on the right side, but I'm right handed:
>do left-handers click on the left side?
 ~~~~~~
While not actually on speaking terms with horses, I make the said click on
the left side.  I am right-handed and white.
A. Murie


From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Sat Jun 22 16:30:26 2002
From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Lynn Irons)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 12:30:26 -0400
Subject: Fronter and Backer
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.123026.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Matt,

Why not try to use the concept of peripheral/non-peripheral to
distinguish fronter and backer front and back vowels?

So we would have front peripheral, front non-peripheral, back
peripheral, back non-periperhal.


--
Virtually, Terry
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 22 17:36:16 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:36:16 -0400
Subject: Fronter and Backer
In-Reply-To: <3D14A622.B76E42A9@morehead-st.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.133616.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Terry,

Then a vowel slightly to the front of a non-peripheral front vowel
would be "peripheraler" (since your system gives us only two-degrees
of front-backness for front and back). I like "fronter" and "backer"
better than "peripheraler."

dInIs

>Matt,
>
>Why not try to use the concept of peripheral/non-peripheral to
>distinguish fronter and backer front and back vowels?
>
>So we would have front peripheral, front non-peripheral, back
>peripheral, back non-periperhal.
>
>
>--
>Virtually, Terry
>(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
>Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
>Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
>Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
>(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 22 18:55:59 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 14:55:59 EDT
Subject: Klezmer, Tshatshke, Chollah (1908)
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.145559.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From the UNIVERSAL JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA, Ktav Publishing House, NY, 1969, vol. 8, pg. 55:

   Toward the end of the Middle Ages a special form of instrumental music developed among the Jews of Eastern Europe, known as Klezmer (a corruption of the Hebrew _kele zemir_, "instruments of song").

("End of the Middle Ages."  Homer Simpson makes the OED before "klezmer"!  The "klezmer revival" was twenty years ago!  There are 100,000 "klezmer" hits on Google!  Aah!--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
GLIMPSES OF A STRANGE WORLD
by H. S. Stollnitz
Cambridge, Mass.
Printed for the Author
1908

Pg. 4:  ..."Shadchen" (marriage broker)...

Pg. 5:  ..."Cheesoron" (bodily disablement)...

Pg. 6:  ...he was at his "shadchanic" wits' end...

Pg. 7:  "...for none can make better 'Draidlach' (tops) for Hanucca, carve finer swords for Tisha b'ab, make louder sounding 'Grechotas' (whirligigs) and 'Hooman Kleppers' (knucklebones) for Purim, (Pg. 8--ed.) and his services are eagerly sought after before Pesach as a Matzoth 'stippler' (perforator), to say nothing of the wonderful soldiers adn animals which he draws and paints every year for Shevuos.

Pg. 9:  ...haunted by the proverb, "Viel (Pg. 10--ed.) M'loches und wenig B'rochos" ("Jack of all trades and master of none")...

Pg. 12:  "Mazol tov!  Mazol tov!"  (Good luck!  Good luck!)

Pg. 29:  ..."Yeshibahs"--Talmud schools--...

Pg. 39:  ...the "Shivah"--first seven days of mourning--...

Pg. 47 (Chapter title):  THE "BASKOL" OR ALL'S FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR

Pg. 75:  She asked him to sit down on his "peckel" (packet)...

Pg. 83:  ..."Chazan" (cantor)...

Pg. 92:  He spoke the prayer over the "Chalos" (shewbread), and the repast progressed amid joy and the expressions of mutual appreciation and encouragement, Chatskel remarking that such a broth would be good enough for even the richest man.  But when the "gefillte" fish were put on the table, accompanied by freshly grated horse-radish, Chatskel's eulogies for hissister Esther Leben were beyond limit...
(OED has 1937 for "challah"??--ed.)

Pg. 93:  Mother and daughter feared he had swallowed a fish bone, and Esther, in her remarkable presence of mind, grasped the "gefillte kishke" (filled intestine) and thrust it into the throat of her beloeved CHatskel, which process would surely have suffocated the agonized man had it not been for Esther's presence of mind quickly to pull it out again.
   Once more happiness reigned and Chatskel turned his voice for "Zemiros" (the table hymns).

Pg. 99:  If Chatskel had had more candles and coul have availed himself of the services of a "Shabbos goye" (a non-Jewish woman who goes about to light the fires in Jewish homes on the Sabbath), who knows when the singing would have ceased, but against force there is no resistance.

Pg. 101:  ..."Baldarsher" (wandering preacher)...

Pg. 102:  After "Havdolo" (separating the Sabbath from the week days)...

Pg. 103:  ..."Malave Demalkeh" (leave taking of queen Sabbath)...

Pg. 105:  "Am I a 'schorrer' (beggar)?"

Pg. 106:  After the young man had departed, Chatskel exclaimed: "What a 'Tshatshke'! (a noble person who gives joy to his fellow people, like a toy to the child)."

Pg. 112:  He jumped from his chair, indulged in a "Kosatske" (dance of the Cossacks) and shouted: "To the Jews there was light with gladness and joy and honor!"

Pg. 117:  Chatskel joined several "Chevras" (societies)...

Pg. 148:  ..."Balsottke" (secret keeper).
   (...)  "You know I'm not a 'Plotkarke' (tale-bearer)..."

Pg. 149:  "So may I lead my daughter under the 'Choope!' (canopy of matrimony)," assured a third.

Pg. 156:  ...a "Get" (divorce)...

Pg. 157:  ...the "Herem" (ban)...

Pg. 163:
   SHEEKA KLEZMER--NICKNAMED "MALPA"
   SHEEKA KLEZMER, nicknamed "Malpa" (Ape), on account of his extreme homeliness, made his entrance into this world unheralded by song or much ado.

Pg. 163:  ..."Pod Shammes" (under-beadle).

Pg. 169:  In Russian Poland the Jews celebrate by a "Foorshpiel."  On the Saturday evening prceding the wedding the bride orders the "Klezmoorim" (musicians), to her home, where are congregated her _single_ girl friends.  Besides the musicians, no one of the masculine sex is permitted to be present.  To avoid any possibility of the dancing damsels coming in contact with the musicians, a "M'khitza" (partition) of some kind is improvised.  If the bride is wealthy she defrays the expense for the music, but in cases of limited means the guests pay for the music by way of "Einvarf'n" (throwing in).

Pg. 170:  The highest priced is the "Akhtoorya,"eight participants constituting a set, similar to the "Francaise."  The "Foorshpiel" lasts as long as the musicians receive pay.  At the close the "Klezmoorim" usually throw in one dance gratis.

Pg. 175:  "May I live to lead you (Pg. 176--ed.) under the 'Khoopa' (canopy of wedlock), during the ensuing year."

Pg. 185:  "...'Yaksoonim' (superior families).  So also came your sainted mother from 'Lamdonim' (savants), and 'Tsadikim' (pious and righteous)."

Pg. 190:  "Often the unknown 'Bosyak' (tramp), we see in the last stages of life in drunkend madness, in the poorhouse, or in prison, is perhaps one of them."

Pg. 193:  Himself an ardent lover of music, Wielnik, at any other occasion, would have continued with his eulogy of Sheeka, but felt that he but added coal to the fire of his daughter's love, and he reproached himself inwardly for his imprudence.  "Of course I know him only as Sheeka the Klezmer," he continued.  "His attributes as a man are a revelation to me."


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Sat Jun 22 20:06:48 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 15:06:48 -0500
Subject: Fronter and Backer
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.150648.0500.>

Also, in the specific context 'peripheral' wouldn't work. The phrasing is
"higher F2 frequencies are judged to indicate fronter vowels".

"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:

> >Terry,
>
> Then a vowel slightly to the front of a non-peripheral front vowel
> would be "peripheraler" (since your system gives us only two-degrees
> of front-backness for front and back). I like "fronter" and "backer"
> better than "peripheraler."
>
> dInIs
>
> >Matt,
> >
> >Why not try to use the concept of peripheral/non-peripheral to
> >distinguish fronter and backer front and back vowels?
> >
> >So we would have front peripheral, front non-peripheral, back
> >peripheral, back non-periperhal.
> >
> >
> >--
> >Virtually, Terry
> >(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
> >Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
> >Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
> >Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
> >(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> 740 Wells Hall A
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
> Office - (517) 353-0740
> Fax - (517) 432-2736


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Sat Jun 22 20:56:42 2002
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 16:56:42 -0400
Subject: next store (= next door)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0206212125370.21773-100000@bast.u.arizona.ed u>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.165642.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Labov has an article (or presentation?) somewhere on this kind of
misanalysis, doesn't he?  I can't find it right now, but maybe someone else
can.  I hear a shift of final consonant to initial position in the
following word (the impetus for Labov's study, I believe) all the time on
local radio, and also on NPR.

At 09:33 PM 6/21/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Thanks to Jim Landau for confirming "next store" and adding "the
>safternoon".  It reminded me of a phrase my mother used to use, saying
>that someone putting on airs was acting like  "Mrs. Astor's poodledog".
>I interpreted this mentally as "Mrs. Astrous Poodledog", imagining this
>ostentatiously wealthy woman, and only a few years ago, when it came
>to mind, I suddenly realized the misanalysis.
>
>         Rudy


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 22 23:22:45 2002
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 19:22:45 EDT
Subject: Fronter and Backer
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.192245.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Highly suspect thoughts:

>>Or you could use the nautical terms "forward" and "aft" (with superlatives
"forwardmost" and "aftermost")<<

Wouldn't the superlative of "aft" be "aftmost"?  I could swear that's what
they say on Star Trek (i.e. aftmost lateral sensor array), but I could be
inventing that.

Also, of clicks and horses:

I'm white, I've never ridden a horse or had need to call one, Catholic
right-handed, and  I click on the left.  I can click on the right but find it
odd.  I was taught that clicking went with handedness (which I accepted since
I was originally left-handed).

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
In Transition...


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 22 23:32:20 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 19:32:20 -0400
Subject: Fronter and Backer
In-Reply-To: <63.d61026f.2a4660c5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.193220.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hmmm. It never occurred to me to note that I was not only old, male,
white, South-Midland (Louisville), half-hillbilly, half-Hungarian,
and right-handed but also fallen Baptist. Does that last make my
left-clicking suspect?

dInIs

PS: I have both rode and called the critters, but with no great skill.

>Highly suspect thoughts:
>
>>>Or you could use the nautical terms "forward" and "aft" (with superlatives
>"forwardmost" and "aftermost")<<
>
>Wouldn't the superlative of "aft" be "aftmost"?  I could swear that's what
>they say on Star Trek (i.e. aftmost lateral sensor array), but I could be
>inventing that.
>
>Also, of clicks and horses:
>
>I'm white, I've never ridden a horse or had need to call one, Catholic
>right-handed, and  I click on the left.  I can click on the right but find it
>odd.  I was taught that clicking went with handedness (which I accepted since
>I was originally left-handed).
>
>-dsb
>Douglas S. Bigham
>In Transition...

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 23 00:46:27 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 20:46:27 EDT
Subject: Shickzah, Jehudah, Meshumad (1872); Nebbish (1907)
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.204627.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SCHICKZAH, JEHUDAH, MESHUMAD

MIRIAM ROSENBAUM: A STORY OF JEWISH LIFE
by Rev. Dr. Edersheim (Alfred Edersheim, 1825-1889--ed.)
Boston: Henry Hoyt
1872

   I had about ten minutes to read through this book and made some quick
notes, mostly based on the footnoted terms.

Pg. 24:  ...Yom Kippur*...
*Day of Atonement.

Pg. 16:  ...Goj.*
*A gentile.

Pg. 16:  ...Poshe Yisroel.*
*An apostate in Israel.

Pg. 16:  ...Meshumad.*
*An apostate, literally, "One destroyed."
(The revised OED has 1892--Zangwill, of course--for "meshummad."  I'll be in
Alaska, but _anyone_ can request this book at the library for this full
cite--ed.)

Pg. 18:  ...Goyim*...
*Gentiles.

Pg. 18:  ...kerian*...
*Rending of garments in mourning for the dead.

Pg. 39: ...killah*...
*The Jewish congregation--properly, _Kehillah_.

Pg. 56: ..._havdalah_*...
*The separation between the Sabbath and the working week.

Pg. 57:  You forget even the incongruous presence of the _gojah_*...
*The Gentile servant...
(Shabbos-goye--ed.)

Pg. 77:  ...tallith*...
*The cloth with fringes, worn during prayer.

Pg. 78:  "Levi, is the shickzah* shikkor?**"" remonstrated Mrs. Rosenbaum.
(Is the creature drunk?)
*Shekez literally means abomination, and is in Scripture applied to unclean
fish, birfs, and other beasts.  It is an expression of contempt, chiefly
applied to Gnetiles.  Shickzah is the feminine of it.
**Intoxicated with drink.
(OED has 1892 for "shiksah," from someone named Zangwill--ed.)

Pg. 82:  ...galuth*...
*Exile and captivity.

Pg. 89:  _Anwalt_*...
*_Anwalt_ is the German equivalent for an attorney.

Pg. 128:  "A Jehudah?"* at last inquired Levi, almost repreaochfully.
*A Jew.
(OED has 1823 for "Yahudi," but not "Jehudah"--ed.)

Pg. 175:  "Anything will do--Pfefferkuchen* if you like," growled the other.
*Literally, Gingerbread.

Pg. 194:  ...Machsor*...
*The Jewish prayer-book.

Pg. 211:  ..."Neshomah Chappers"*...
*Literally, soul-catchers...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
NEBBISH

STORIES OF JEWISH HOME LIFE
by S. N. Mosenthal
Philadelphia: The Jewish Publication Society of America
1907

   I'll post Glossary entries, for whoever's interested.

Pg. 385:
   GLOSSARY

ARBA-KANFES.  Lit. "four corners." ...
AYIN HORA.  The evil eye.
BAR-MITZVAH...
BENSH GOMEL.  TO pronounce a blessing for escape from danger.
BOLES (Ger. ?).  A sort of cake.
BROCHE.  A benediction.
CHAMMER.  Ass; donkey.
CHEN.  Grace.
CHEVRE.  Society.
CHEVRE KADDISHE...
CHOSEN.  Bridegroom.
CHUPPE.  Marriage canopy.
DARSHEN.  To exdpound homiletically.
GAN-EDEN.  Paradise.
GOY (pl. GOYIM).  A non-Jew.
GROSCHEN (Ger.).  A small coin.
GULDEN (Ger.).  A florin.
HALLEL.  Lit. "praise." ...
HELLER (Ger.).  A small coin.
JUDENGASSE (Ger.).  Jews' Street.
JUDENSHUL (Ger.).  Synagogue.
KALLE.  Bride; affianced.
KIDDUSH...
KIDDUSH HA-SHEM...
KILLE.  Jewish congregation; Jewish community.
KOSHER.  Ritually permitted.
LEB (Ger. LEBEN).  Dear, my love; my life.
(Pg. 386--ed.)
LECHO DODI.  Lit. "Come, my beloved." ...
LO KOM. ...
LUACH.  Calendar.
MATZOS.  Unleavened bread.
MAZEL.  Luck.
MENUVELTE.  A homely, ungainly girl.
MESHORES.  Assistant; servant.
MINCHA.  Afternoon service.
MINYAN.  A company of ten men, the minimum for a public service.
MITZVE.  Duty, command; charity; the fulfilment of a command.
MOSHES RABBENI.  Moses our teacher.
MUHMLE (Ger.).  Diminutive of MUHME.  Aunt; cousin.
NEBBICH (Slavic).  An expression of pity or sympathy.  Poor thing!  Alas!
Too bad!
NIGUN.  Traditional chant.
OMEN VE-OMEN.  Amen and Amen.
OVINU MALKENU...
PARNESS.  The head of a congregation; the president.
PASKEN.  To decide according to the Rabbinic law.
PESACH.  Passover.
PURIM.  The Feast of Esther.
RAV.  Officiating rabbi.
REB.  Mr.
REBBETZIN.  Wife of a rabbi.
REICHSTHALEN (Ger.).  A dollar, the unit of currency.
ROSHE.  A malicious person; an Anti-Semite.
SCHLEMIHLTE.  Feminine form of SCHLEMIHL.
SCHNAPPESCHEN (Ger.).  A "drop" of whisky.
SCHNORR (ger.).  To beg.
SCHNORRER (Ger.).  Beggar.
SECHIE.  Advantage; privilege; joy.
SECHUS.  Merit; privilege.
SEDER...
SHABBES.  Sabbath.
SHABUOS.  Pentecost.
SHADCHONIM (pl.).  Marriage brokers.
SHAMMES.  Verger; beadle; sexton.
SHEM YISHMERENU.  The Lord preserve us!
SHEMA YISROEL.  Hear, O Israel!
SHICKSEL (Ger. suffix).  Drastic expression for a non-Jewish girl.
SHIDDECH.  Betrothal; an arranged match.
(Pg. 387--ed.)
SHIR HA-MAALOS.  Lit. "Song of the Degrees." ...
SHIVE.  Lit. "seven."  The seven days of mourning immediately after a death
occurs in a family.
SHMUES.  Hearsay; talk based on rumor.
SHTUSS.  Nonsense; folly.
SHUL (Ger. SCHUL).  Synagogue.
SIDDUR.  Prayer-book.
SIDDURL (Ger. suffix).  Diminutive of SIDDUR.
SUCCOS.  Feast of Tabernacles.
TACHSHID.  Jewel; ornament.
TEFILLIN.  Phylacteries.
THALER (Ger.).  Dollar.
TISH BE-AV...
TORAH...
TORAS MOSHE.  The Law of Moses.
TREIFES.  Ritually unfit for food.
TRENDERL (Ger.).  A sort of top, amde for children especially on Chanuccah.
UNBERUFEN (Ger.).  _Absit omen!_
UNBESCHRIBEN (Ger.).  _Absit omen!_
YEVORECHECHO.  (The Lord) bless thee!
YIDDE (Ger.).  Jews.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 23 01:49:58 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 21:49:58 EDT
Subject: Greek Salad (1935)
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.214958.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GREEK SALAD:
AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF GREEK TRAVEL
by Kenneth Matthews
London: Peter Davies
1935

Pg. 23:  Had I seen their less admirable national delicacies, the _kokoretsi_
or roasted sheep's guts, the _entradhes_ or fried lights, the _melitzanes_ or
stteped egg-plant, the _oktopodhi_ or most noisome cuttle-fish, I should have
realized what a happy effort of imagination had been made by the waiter...

Pg. 97:  Cafe-crawling is an inexpensive amusement...

Pg. 135:  We had _vissinada_, which is a syrup of sour cherries.

Pg. 183:  ..._baklava_ (a sticky cake) and _kouraviedhes_ (a kind of
shortbread).

Pg. 293:  She learnt what a salad was, the most ingenious of Greek salads
being a few pieces of tomato and cucumber laid side by side unskinned upon a
plate.  She was fascinated by the melange of fruit which we called ambrosia:
no Greek would dream of interfering with the natural state of any fruit
unless, possibly, to rinse the exocarp in a bowl of water.  (I have promised
the recipe for ambrosia and give it here, in what is necessarily
non-technical language: _Truncate a normal melon; scoop out the flesh and mix
it with skinned and seeded grapes and cut-up fresh figs; lose no juice; add a
dash of Samian wine; restore everything to the hollow interior of the melon
and place upon ice._  Very satisfactory.)

Pg. 311:  The drink of the people is the resinated wine called "retsinato."
(One OED hit, but not an entry--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
GREECE: HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS
by Karl Baedeker
Leipsic: Karl Baedeker
1889

   Some OED people have suggested that I type some more of this.  I won't
type the Greek letters; the transliteration should all be in italics.

Pg. xxv (Restaurants and Cafes.  Wine.  Tobacco.):  The Greek for portion is
-- (merida).
--(soupa), soup.
--(soumo), broth.
--(soupa chortaria), vegetable soup ("Julienne").
--(soupa avgolemono), soup with egg and lemon.
--(makaronia), maccaroni.
--(psito), roast meat.
--(psito vidello), roast beef.
--(psito arnaki), roast lamb.
--(hotellettes) or
--(brisola), cutlets.
--(bifteki), beefsteak.
--(chiromeri), vulg. --(sambouni, "jambon"), ham.
--(salami), --(salilsa (?--ed.)), sausage; -- (loukanika), small sausages.
----(kouopoulo), fowl.
--(frikasse), fricassee.
--(galopoulo), turkey.
--(bekatza), snipe.
--(china), goose.
--(papi), duck.
--(pedri), fish.
--(pedri mayonnes), fish mayonnaise.
--(stridia), oysters.
--(chaviari), caviare; --(lemoni), lemon.
--(chortaria), vegetables.
--(fasoulia), beans.
--(bisellia), peas.
--(kounoupidia), cauliflower.
--(krommidi), onions.
--(tomates), tomatoes.
--(tomates yemistes or yomistes), stuffed tomatoes.
--(pilfai), a kind of rich rice-pudding, like the Italian risotto.
--(atzem pilafi), "Persian pillau" of hashed mutton.
--(omletta), omelette.
--(youvarlakia), dumplings.
--(tsoutzoukakia), dumplings with garlic (skordo).
--(psomi), bread.
--(tiri), cheese.
-- or --(tiri tis Elvetias or tis Vitzeris), Gruyere cheese.
--, Roquefort cheese.
--(touloumotiri), goat's-milk cheese.
--(poudinga), pudding.
--(glikisma), sweets, pastry.
--(viskoto), biscuit.
--(chalva), a Turkish sweetmeat made of sesame and honey (--); other
sweetmeats are called baklava, galatopouriko, toukoumia (p. xxvi).
--(frouta), fruit.
--(milon), apple.
--(achladi), pear.
--(kerasia), cherries.
--(fraoules), strawberries.
--(stafilia), grapes.
--(stafides), raisins.
--(damaskina), plums.
--(rodanika), peaches.
--(verikoka), apricots.
--(amigdala), almonds.
--(sika), figs.
--(portokali), orange; mandarini, Manderine orange.
--(peponi), melon; -- (mia fetta p.), a slice of melon.

Pg.  xxvi:
   _Wine_...
   This flavour is particularly strong in the "Retsinat" of Attica (--,
krassi retsinato), which foreigners rarely learn to appreciate (see, however,
p. xxx).
(...)
   _Cafes_ (--, kafenia) of all kinds abound in Greece, from the wretched
wooden shed of the country-village up to the Atehnian establishments
handsomely fitted up in the Italian style.  The coffee (--, ena kafe, a cup
of coffee; --, dio kafedes, two cups of coffee) is generally good, but it is
invariably served in the Oriental manner, _i. e._ in small cups with the
grounds.  As a rule it is already sweetned (--, kafe gliko), but the visitor
may order wither a -- (kafe metrio), with little sugar, or a -- (kafe
scheto), with no sugar.  The usual charge is 10 c. per cup ( 16 c. at the
larger Athenian cafes).  It should be allowed to cool and "settle" and then
drunk carefully so as not to disturb the sediment at the bottom.--A favourite
refreshment of the Greeks is -- (loukoumi, pl. loukoumia), a confection
(resembling what is known in England as "Turkish  Delight") pf sweetned gum
and rose-water, often mixed with pistachio nuts.  ANother is -- (masticha), a
liquor distilled from the gums of the mastix, which forms a milky, opalescent
fluid when mixed with water.  The ordinary price for loukomi or masticha is
10 c.  The Greek for brandy is -- (raki, plo. rakia).


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 23 01:50:37 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 21:50:37 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
In-Reply-To: <f7.1cf64aa2.2a42280e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.215037.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

> wife-beater (sleeveless T-shirt, vest):
> antedate 1997

Here's earlier:


1994 _Boston Globe_ 28 Sept. [article beginning on page 35] (Nexis)

She also runs down a list of what's hot and what's not among GenXers these
days. Preppy is in, grunge is out. Lycra is out, vinyl is in. Bowling
shirts are in, wife beaters are out . . .

Whoa.

"When did bowling shirts take over for wife beating?" someone in the group
asks. Titters all around.

"Wife beaters, not wife beating," Rinzler says, laughing. "It's a kind of
shirt."


Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 23 02:10:56 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 22:10:56 -0400
Subject: Greek Salad (1935)
In-Reply-To: <17b.a1c8a5c.2a468346@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.221056.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> GREEK SALAD:
> AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF GREEK TRAVEL
> by Kenneth Matthews
> London: Peter Davies
> 1935

I am not sure whether Barry or I have previously contributed pre-1935
evidence of "Greek salad," but here's a 1922 citation:

1922 _N.Y. Times_ 4 Spet. 8  A Sunday dinner on Second Avenue is not
complete unless it begins with chopped chicken liver, chopped herring or
Greek salad, marked on the men uas "appetizer."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 23 07:36:52 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 03:36:52 EDT
Subject: Magen David, Oi Vey (1901)
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.033652.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

IDYLS OF THE GASS
by Martha Wolfenstein
1901
Books for Libraries Press, Freeport, NY
1969 reprint

   OED read this book and came away with three citations (shegetz, tsores,
and Yiddishkeit).


Pg. 15:  ...you would wonder at the joy with which one feeds for days on a
bit of Talmud wisdom, a "good word" which the rabbi gives forth in his weekly
_Shiur_ (Talmud lecture).

Pg. 21:  "What nonsense, the way she makes herself _meshugge_ (crazy) with
that _Yungel_ (little lad)!"

Pg. 25:  She has, _nebbich_, not much, and must work hard for her little bite
to eat.

Pg. 35:  ..._Backstub_ (bake-room)...

Pg. 36:  Odd times, when betrothals, weddings, and _Bar Mitzvahs_ were not
pressing, she filled in with the baking of small cakes, _Kuchele_, made of
almonds and hard-boiled eggs.

Pg. 48:  "_Mehlsupp' mit Spitzgerl_ (flour soup with mushrooms)," announced
his well-trained nose.

Pg. 52:  ..._Matzos_ (unleavened bread)...

Pg. 53:  ...rise and thus become leaven, in other words, _chometz_, unfit.

Pg. 53:  Each new group has a manner of its own, some running sbout and
shrieking like mad during the process; but good-natured ones let you help,
even to the punching of little (Pg. 54--ed.) holes with a _Radlech_ (little
rolling cog-wheel) into the unbaked cakes.

Pg. 62:  "Don't talk _Shtuss_ (nonsense), child!"

Pg. 65:  That's all very well, but his mother's nice holiday cheese--"_Ai,
wai!!_" and indignation got the upper hand.

Pg. 78:  "I'm struck dumb, O _wai!_" he thought.

Pg. 79:  "Oi!"

Pg. 90:  ,,,"She is a whole _Maggid_ (scholar, preacher)."
(OED has 1892, then 1901 for "Maggid"--ed/)

Pg. 108:  "_Shalet_, eggs, and +Kugel_!  Is that all?  Hm!  Reb Noach is also
one of those who lives only to eat!"

Pg. 111:  "Thou canst also sniff a little whether they have baked their
_Barches_ (Sabbath bread)."

Pg. 140:  "Now let her come and bake _Taschkerln_with this stuff!"

Pg. 170:  ..'Yes, 'tis the same one, of velvet, with the _Mogen Dovid_
(SHheld of David_worked in it...
 (The revised OED has 1904 for "Magen David"----ed.)


From r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU  Sun Jun 23 08:32:48 2002
From: r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:32:48 +1000
Subject: route
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.183248.1000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am trying to check if the root/raut pronunciation or "route" lines
up with the Mason-Dixon Line. Is this correct?
Many thanks
Roly Sussex

--
**********************************************************

Roly Sussex
Professor of Applied Language Studies
Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics
School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies
The University of Queensland
Brisbane
Queensland 4072
AUSTRALIA

Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403
Phone:  +61 7 3365 6896
Fax:    +61 7 3365 2798
Email:  r.sussex at mailbox.uq.edu.au
Web:    http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html
School's website:
        http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/

Language Talkback ABC radio:
Web:    http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/

**********************************************************


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sun Jun 23 11:22:20 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 07:22:20 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <a05111b1cb93b37fbc5da@[172.22.14.37]>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.072220.0400.>

On 6/23/02 04:32, "Prof. R. Sussex" <r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU> wrote:

> I am trying to check if the root/raut pronunciation or "route" lines
> up with the Mason-Dixon Line. Is this correct?
> Many thanks
>

I hope note. That division would leave out the third pronunciation, which
rhymes with foot or soot, and is used by my father who has an accent of the
Missouri-Arkansas Southern variety.

Grant


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sun Jun 23 14:00:05 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 10:00:05 -0400
Subject: The Phased vs. Fazed Confusion
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.100005.0400.>

I read a lot of fan fiction (looking for new talent) in which phased and
fazed are interchanged (usually phased where fazed should be), but I never
expected to come across it in the Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/23/magazine/23TVPILOT.html?pagewanted=2

Anders wasn't phased by CBS's call. The funds for just the presentation of
''In the Echo'' were still better than her entire budget for ''Things Behind
the Sun.'' ''It's like making a demo for a record company,'' she says. ''I'm
sure bands say, 'Why can't we just do the record?' But it makes it more
manageable for the network.''

(Another common fan fiction irritation: chuckled. Instead of writing dialog
which is actually funny, the writer simply writes any old thing and then
adds the attribution, "she chuckled." Automatic humor, right?)

Grant


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 23 15:03:31 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 11:03:31 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <a05111b1cb93b37fbc5da@[172.22.14.37]>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.110331.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Prof. R. Sussex wrote:
>I am trying to check if the root/raut pronunciation or "route" lines
>up with the Mason-Dixon Line. Is this correct?

You couldn't prove it by me. I grew up in the  1960's in the New York City
suburbs (well north of the Mason-Dixon line), and I grew up absolutely
confused as to which pronunciation was "right". It wasn't like "soda" vs
"pop", where I knew both pronunciations but was sure that "soda" was right
and "pop" was an interloper. It was more like "dived" vs "dove", where I
knew both pronunciations and was so confused that I resorted to
circumlocution to avoid committing myself to one or the other.


--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 23 15:22:13 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 11:22:13 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020623110058.00ab8938@haskins.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.112213.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm with Alice (well, I didn't grow up in NYC), but I am a honest
South-Midlander (Louisville, KY), and I cannot introspect which I use
(except I always sing 'root' in the song Route 66, but I suspect I am
Nat King Cole imitator in this).

There is  very good thesis (even a dissertation) in "failed
introspection" in the fuzzy borderland between psycho- and
sociolinguistics.

dInIs




>Prof. R. Sussex wrote:
>>I am trying to check if the root/raut pronunciation or "route" lines
>>up with the Mason-Dixon Line. Is this correct?
>
>You couldn't prove it by me. I grew up in the  1960's in the New York City
>suburbs (well north of the Mason-Dixon line), and I grew up absolutely
>confused as to which pronunciation was "right". It wasn't like "soda" vs
>"pop", where I knew both pronunciations but was sure that "soda" was right
>and "pop" was an interloper. It was more like "dived" vs "dove", where I
>knew both pronunciations and was so confused that I resorted to
>circumlocution to avoid committing myself to one or the other.
>
>
>--
>==============================================================================
>Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
>Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
>New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 23 15:33:41 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 11:33:41 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b93b974421b0@[35.12.20.211]>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.113341.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I'm with Alice ....

Me too. I'm from Detroit. I see the pronunciations /rut/, /raut/ (rhyming
with "boot", "gout") as about equally usual or standard; I think I use
/raut/ usually. I'm not familiar with /rUt/ (rhyming with "foot") for "route".

-- Doug Wilson


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sun Jun 23 15:53:38 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 11:53:38 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <a05111b1cb93b37fbc5da@[172.22.14.37]>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.115338.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Roly Sussex writes:
>I am trying to check if the root/raut pronunciation of "route" lines
>up with the Mason-Dixon Line. Is this correct?
 ~~~~~~~~~~
 I grew up in Nebraska, saying "root" because  my family did, but most of
our neighbors said "raut."

I'm assuming you mean root with the vowel of *food.*  For me it  (like
roof) also has a choice:  as either that of * food* or of *good.*  (I can
say either in both cases.)
A. Murie


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 23 16:04:49 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:04:49 -0400
Subject: a Yankee dime
In-Reply-To: <006f01c219aa$4f506a00$58e37d80@bluejay>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.120449.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I came across a sentence like the following in a novel: "He didn't give a
>Yankee dime about anyone
>but himself."  From the context, it apparently means, "He didn't care
>about anyone but himself."

In this example "didn't give a Yankee dime" = "didn't give a damn" (or "a
shit" or "a hoot", etc.). "Didn't give a kiss" is not ever used in this
manner as far as I know.

"Yankee dime" has three meanings to my knowledge:

(1) the basic denotation, "American [i.e., USA] dime", a small coin or
monetary unit;

(2) as a metaphor, like "thin dime", meaning a very small price or value,
as used above;

(3) as a southern slang term = "kiss".

I don't know why "Yankee dime" means "kiss". Maybe the original usage was
related to a kiss given as a token payment or a "thank-you" for some small
assistance. As far as I know, the Confederate States never minted or issued
a dime, so I suppose that USA dimes were in circulation at least to some
extent in the CSA (i.e., the seceded southern states) throughout the Civil
War and I suppose "Yankee dime" would have been redundant in most contexts.

It may be that the usage was originally (maybe is still) pejorative, with
the idea that a kiss is all the payment one can get from a stingy Yankee
(i.e., northerner) ... this would be analogous to "Dutch treat" = "no
treat" (originally maybe "the treat one can get from a stingy Dutchman", I
suppose).

Another possibility would be that "Yankee dime" meant "something small but
desirable", dating from the time after the Civil War when a USA dime would
have been more valuable than a (worthless) large CSA banknote, or dating
from slightly earlier when pessimistic/realistic CSA citizens hoarded
Yankee money in expectation of a Yankee victory.

[There is another southern expression sometimes cited for comparison:
"where the Yankee shot [somebody]" = "[somebody's]
navel/umbilicus/belly-button".]

When I get a chance, I'll see what I can find at the library ... unless one
of the local savants can provide more information?

-- Doug Wilson


From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Sun Jun 23 16:19:15 2002
From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:19:15 -0400
Subject: Fronter and Backer
In-Reply-To: <63.d61026f.2a4660c5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.121915.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

|o| Wouldn't the superlative of "aft" be "aftmost"?  I could swear
|o| that's what
|o| they say on Star Trek (i.e. aftmost lateral sensor array), but
|o| I could be
|o| inventing that.
|o|

As long as it was actually in the aftmost position, the one very farthest
aft, as opposed the aft array, which indicates only that it aft of midship.

rhk


From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Sun Jun 23 16:30:37 2002
From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:30:37 -0400
Subject: wife beaters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0206222148430.10483-100000@minerva.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.123037.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

|o| On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:
|o|
|o| > wife-beater (sleeveless T-shirt, vest):
|o| > antedate 1997
|o|

Certainly conjures visions of Marlon Brando as Stanley Kowalski in Street
Car Named Desire.
Maybe Jackie Gleason in the Honeymooners.

BTW, growing up, this kind of sleeveless t-shirt was known in my circle as a
Polish Smoking Jacket, which is odd because Polish was not a major ethnic
identity in North Texas.

rhk


From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Sun Jun 23 16:38:36 2002
From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:38:36 -0400
Subject: Flip, flop, or fly
In-Reply-To: <CPEBLEOMIFBBBHHMHKJGIEGACAAA.Rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.123836.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

used in the same was as "come hell or high water".

Heard this recently from a woman in her mid-50's who grew up in central MO.
She said that she'd heard it all her life and that her grandfather had used
it.

Interesting.  A quick search shows it being used now to advertise certain
aerial competitions like snowboarding, mountain biking, or boat towed belly
boards.

rhk


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 23 16:48:28 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:48:28 -0400
Subject: wife beaters
In-Reply-To: <CPEBLEOMIFBBBHHMHKJGCEGBCAAA.Rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.124828.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Some of the best culturally and linguistically preserved Polish
enclaves in America are in Texas (although that is no requirement for
"Polish jokes" - psiakrew cholera!).

dInIs



>|o| On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:
>|o|
>|o| > wife-beater (sleeveless T-shirt, vest):
>|o| > antedate 1997
>|o|
>
>Certainly conjures visions of Marlon Brando as Stanley Kowalski in Street
>Car Named Desire.
>Maybe Jackie Gleason in the Honeymooners.
>
>BTW, growing up, this kind of sleeveless t-shirt was known in my circle as a
>Polish Smoking Jacket, which is odd because Polish was not a major ethnic
>identity in North Texas.
>
>rhk

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Sun Jun 23 17:03:42 2002
From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 13:03:42 -0400
Subject: wife beaters
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b93babb0ee13@[35.12.22.76]>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.130342.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

|o| Some of the best culturally and linguistically preserved Polish
|o| enclaves in America are in Texas

I know that, but those are mostly in South Central & E-SE Texas, not a lot
up around Lubbock in the panhandle.

rhk


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 23 18:16:55 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:16:55 EDT
Subject: "Dime iss money," Judisch (1885); More Wolfenstein (1905)
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.141655.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

AS IT WAS WRITTEN:
A JEWISH MUSICIAN'S STORY
by Sidney Luksa ("pseud. of Henry Harland" is handwritten--ed.)
New York:  Casell * Company, Limited
1885 ("Copyright by O. M. Dunham")

   A "Yankee dime" is worthless?  "Dime iss money!"
   Check the online, full text, historical NEW YORK TIMES for "Yiddish" and
"Judisch."


Pg. 162:  "Doctor," I demanded, without ceremony, "am I a _Mamzer_?"
(...)(Pg. 163--ed.)  "What am I?  Tell me all about my father and mother."

Pg. 171:  He had a strong Jewish accent, thus: "Dime iss money."

Pg. 172:  Ah yes, yes: you are right.  He had a white beard.  He was also a
Jew.  We spoke in _Judisch_.  I remember."
(This is New York City in the 1880s.  "Judisch" or "Judisch Deutsch" is used
instead of the word "Yiddish"--ed.)

Pg. 176:  On her arrival, they held a brief conference together in _Judisch_.

Pg. 227:  ...I heard snatches from the chants the _Chazzan_ sings in the
synagogue...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
A RENEGADE
AND OTHER TALES
by Martha Wolfenstein
Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society of America
1905

   The expressions here are much the same as in IDYLS OF THE GASS (1901),
four years earlier.  I was running out of gas as I got to typing  "Mogen
Dovid."
   There are a few things new to this book, but no "bagels" or "latkes."

Pg. 35:  Then, that his text-books were used in every school in Austria, and
that he was making money "like hay."

Pg. 54:  "Nu,--Maseltow (good luck!)!"

Pg. 54:  "Kuchel (cookies)," cried the Gass.

Pg. 56:  "The Fresser (glutton)!" wailed the twigs.

Pg. 80:  "Reb Chaim Melamed (the teacher) has got the rheumatism," he went
on...
(The revised OED has 1892 for "melamed," of course from Zangwill.  Zangwill
is good, but in no way did he coin all of these words, or coin any of them.
That just shows the work that needs to be done to find earlier
citations--ed.)

Pg. 81:  "My breakfast.  Every day a thick slice of bread, on Tuesdays and
Thursdays flour-soup, and on Sunday a piece of Barches (Sabbath bread), if
may-be there is any left over," said Loebele.
(OED has no entry for "barches"?--ed.)

Pg. 84:  "Nu, and if!" cried Reb Chaim, angrily.
(He was trying out for the movie CLUELESS--ed.)

Pg. 85:  On the whole, he felt flattered that a solid Balbos (householder)
should accept him as a son-in-law...

Pg. 104:  "A Shlemiel, nebbich (poor fellow)," said the people, "to die of
starvation at his own father-in-law's door-step."
(OED has an 1892 Zangwill "nebbich," and then 1907--ed.)

Pg. 114:  "Meshugge (crazy)!" gasped Reb Noach, striking his
forehead--"stark, staring mad!"
(The revised OED has the 1892 Zangwill, then 1900, and then 1922 Joyce
ULYSSES--ed.)

Pg. 115:  "He has been such a big Trefa-Fresser (eater of the unclean) all
his life that the Lord will not even notice this little bit in the pile."

Pg. 117:  "May God defend everyone from the Makkes (beating) which will be
his portion in the Hereafter."
   "Trefa-Fresser!" they called him.
   "Poshe-Yisroel (sinner in Israel!)!" said the pious, and spat at the
mention of his name.  But the sage ones merely shrugged their shoulders, and
said, "A meshuggener Yud (crazy Jew)."

Pg. 121:  "...thou Omhoretz (ignoramus)!"

Pg. 124:  "Sit!" cried Shaye then, forcing Mendel into a chair, "and there
thou sittest until thou tellest me, once for all, what means all this
Meshuggas (craziness)."
(The revised OED has 1898, then 1907 for "meshuggas."  The 1898 is from
Zangwill, as usual, because no one reads anything else--ed.)

Pg. 187:  First of Genedel this: spiritually she represented the very essence
of beauty, but the visible part of her was just a dried up little mother with
a wizened face, stoop-shoulder, and a "Scheitel."
(OED has an 1892 Zangwill "sheitel," and then seemingly no one used the term
until 1957--ed.)

Pg. 195:  ...gave him wine and cake.  Nay, nay--none of your raisin wine and
(Pg. 196--ed.) home-made Dalklech.

Pg. 261:  Shpass, friends!

Pg.  264:  Laws--Shtuss!

Pg. 265:  Isaac used to say that the world is like a basket of onions.  Shake
it up as well as one will, by the time one arrives at the market, the wagon
will have jolted all the little ones to the bottom and all the big ones will
be on top.  So it is with people.
(Isaac was trying out for a part in the movie FORREST GUMP.  Seriously,
though, I've seen this proverb many times before in my work on "the big
apple."  Big apples are always seen as "top of the barrel"--ed.)

Pg. 316:  The Chutzpah!
(OED has the 1892 Zangwill, and then no one said "chutzpah" until 1945--ed.)


From Ittaob at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 23 18:58:03 2002
From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:58:03 EDT
Subject: route
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.145803.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The different pronunciations may have more to do with socio-economic levels
than geography.  In New York, anyway, you typically heard news reporters,
e.g., saying "root." When I worked in the Post Office in Queens in the 1970s,
on the other hand, the mail carriers universally refrred to their delivery
routes as "routs."

Steve Boatti


From Heaberlin at SWT.EDU  Sun Jun 23 19:23:26 2002
From: Heaberlin at SWT.EDU (Dickie Maurice Heaberlin)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:23:26 -0500
Subject: wife beaters
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.142326.0500.>

"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:

> Some of the best culturally and linguistically preserved Polish
> enclaves in America are in Texas (although that is no requirement for
> "Polish jokes" - psiakrew cholera!).
>
> dInIs

But not in North Texas, they are south of I 10 between Houston and San Antonio.

Dickie Heaberlin
San Marcos, Tx


From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Sun Jun 23 20:02:11 2002
From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:02:11 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <11c.130faac2.2a47743b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.160211.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

|o| e.g., saying "root." When I worked in the Post Office in Queens
|o| in the 1970s,
|o| on the other hand, the mail carriers universally referred to
|o| their delivery
|o| routes as "routs."

I'd never considered this but in my computer repair days, I had a rout--a
set of regular stops.  But if on vacation, I would plot a root on the
highway map, but I'd stop enrout to sleep.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sun Jun 23 20:06:51 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 13:06:51 -0700
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <CPEBLEOMIFBBBHHMHKJGGEGECAAA.Rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.130651.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I'd never considered this but in my computer repair days, I
> had a rout--a
> set of regular stops.  But if on vacation, I would plot a root on the
> highway map, but I'd stop enrout to sleep.

Speaking of computers, those pieces of equipment made by Cisco that make the
Internet run are (ObCaveat: almost) universally pronounced /routers/. No one
I know of calls them /rooters/, even me who grew up (in New Jersey)
pronouncing "route" as /root/.


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sun Jun 23 20:29:11 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:29:11 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <B93B27AC.4EDB%gbarrett@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.162911.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 6/23/02 04:32, "Prof. R. Sussex" <r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU> wrote:

# I am trying to check if the root/raut pronunciation or "route" lines
# up with the Mason-Dixon Line. Is this correct?
# Many thanks

My father, born 1919 in NYC and raised there, used /raUt/ in road names,
and I occasionally use it myself, learned from him. But he may have
picked that up in the Army in WW2.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 23 20:37:27 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:37:27 -0400
Subject: Jack Buck's "That's a winner!"
In-Reply-To: <20020619162513.GQ8217@chaos.wustl.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.163727.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:25 AM -0500 6/19/02, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
>
>I grew up in St. Louis with Jack Buck. He had the most unmistakable voice
>in broadcasting and radio will be less without him.
>[quoting some obituary:]
>  >From the 1985 World Series he is often remembered for the "Go Crazy Folks,
>Go Crazy!" jubilant cry at the game and series winning home run.
>
Can anyone clarify this reference for me?  First of all, it was
Kansas City that won that series (and the Cardinals that lost), and I
suspect Buck was enough of a homer [in the 'subjective', not
'four-bagger' sense] not to have exulted quite that jubilantly at the
result.  Second, the series-deciding 7th game was something like 9-0
(Saberhagen pitching the shutout), so there was no 'game and series
winning home run'.  Perhaps the playoffs (NLCS) preceding the series,
when the Cards beat the Dodgers on Jack Clark's homer, IIRC?

larry


From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU  Sun Jun 23 20:39:29 2002
From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:39:29 -0500
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <CPEBLEOMIFBBBHHMHKJGGEGECAAA.Rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.153929.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 6/23/02 3:02 PM, Rick H Kennerly at Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM wrote:

> |o| e.g., saying "root." When I worked in the Post Office in Queens
> |o| in the 1970s,
> |o| on the other hand, the mail carriers universally referred to
> |o| their delivery
> |o| routes as "routs."
>
> I'd never considered this but in my computer repair days, I had a rout--a
> set of regular stops.  But if on vacation, I would plot a root on the
> highway map, but I'd stop enrout to sleep.
>
And you can buy a router but not a rooter for computer networking.
DMLance


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 23 20:43:32 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:43:32 -0400
Subject: Jack Buck's "That's a winner!"
In-Reply-To: <p04320404b93bde561ec8@[130.132.245.155]>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.164332.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn wrote:
>At 11:25 AM -0500 6/19/02, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
>>
>>I grew up in St. Louis with Jack Buck. He had the most unmistakable voice
>>in broadcasting and radio will be less without him.
>>[quoting some obituary:]
>>  >From the 1985 World Series he is often remembered for the "Go Crazy Folks,
>>Go Crazy!" jubilant cry at the game and series winning home run.
>Can anyone clarify this reference for me?  First of all, it was
>Kansas City that won that series (and the Cardinals that lost), and I
>suspect Buck was enough of a homer [in the 'subjective', not
>'four-bagger' sense] not to have exulted quite that jubilantly at the
>result.  Second, the series-deciding 7th game was something like 9-0
>(Saberhagen pitching the shutout), so there was no 'game and series
>winning home run'.  Perhaps the playoffs (NLCS) preceding the series,
>when the Cards beat the Dodgers on Jack Clark's homer, IIRC?

By the third time that I saw the SportsCenter retrospective on Jack Buck, I
finally figured out that this call was from the end of game 6 of that
series. Ozzie's homer capped a come-from behind rally and forced a game 7.
I suppose I *could* check retrosheet, but I *should* weed my veggie garden.


--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 23 20:56:50 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:56:50 EDT
Subject: put-down
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.165650.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 5/28/2002 3:46:56 PM, savan at EROLS.COM writes:

<<       Does anyone know the origins of put-down as a noun? I see from the
OED that as a verb put down's meaning of "to 'take down'; to snub..."
goes way back. But I couldn't find it as a noun. I'm under the
impression (and I could be totally wrong) that the noun put-down really
got going during '50s and '60s stand-up comedy and that maybe Lenny
Bruce had something to do with it. Or perhaps it came out of sitcoms of
that era. Any ideas, anyone? >>

I remember teaching Shakespeare's "12th Night" in the late 1960s at Duke and
finding PUT DOWN used as a verb in that play (someone reports having seen
Malvolio "put down by a fool" and it seems clear from the context that
Shakespeare intended the term to mean to his hearers exactly what it would
mean to 20th and 21st Century Americans). I thought, "My goodness, this new
slang that my students are using is as old as Shakespeare, only they use it
as a noun instead of as a verb." I have no idea if there is a historical
connection, though--it could be that the 20th century sense was reinvented
independently. Or maybe even revived by Shakespeareans!


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 23 21:05:08 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:05:08 -0400
Subject: Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah (1922)
In-Reply-To: <156.f9ba53c.2a425fff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.170508.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:30 PM -0400 6/19/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    I asked the women's division of the Reconstructionist College for any "Bat
>Mitzvah" citation, and got the following response.  If rrc.edu doesn't have
>citations, no one does.  Judith Kaplan Eisenstein's husband was a college
>founder.
>--Barry Popik

In case anyone is unfamiliar with Reconstructionist Judaism, here's a
joke I just received:

Q:  How do Reconstructionists spell the name of the Deity?   Pr-cess.
A:  Pr-cess.



>--------------------------------------------
>
>Subj:   Judith Kaplan's bat mitzvah
>Date:   6/19/2002 1:47:56 PM Eastern Standard Time
>From:   <A HREF="mailto:dwaxman at rrc.edu">dwaxman at rrc.edu</A>
>To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
>Sent from the Internet (Details)
>
>
>
>Hello-
>
>I am currently writing a graduate seminar paper on the bat mitzvah
>ceremony at the Society for the Advancement of Judaism (SAJ), the
>synagogue founded by Dr. Mordecai M. Kaplan, Judith Kaplan's father.
>There was no secular press coverage of her bat mitzvah, which occurred
>on May 5, 1922, though I have not determined if it received coverage in
>the Jewish press (Anglo or Yiddish).
>
>The first reference to the "bas mitzvah" ceremony I have thus far
>encountered is in minutes of the SAJ Board of Trustees from early
>February 1922, shortly after the congregation was organized.  Dr. Kaplan
>informed the Board of his intention to introduce such a ceremony and let
>them know that he intended that his eldest daughter to be the first, and
>the Board assented with great enthusiasm.  I have not yet had an
>opportunity to review Kaplan's diary to determine if he wrote about the
>ceremony using this terminology earlier than that date, though if you
>check in with me again in a few weeks I hope to have made some headway
>on the diary.  I can also email you the precise date and language from
>the minute books if this is helpful.
>
>The synagogue standardized the usage to the Sephardic pronuciation "bat"
>mitzvah some time in the 30s.
>
>Deborah Waxman
>
>Rabbi Deborah Waxman
>Assistant to the President and Director of Special Projects
>Reconstructionist Rabbinical College
>1299 Church Road
>Wyncote, PA  19095
>(215) 576-0800 x113
>(215) 576-6143 (fax)


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 23 22:35:56 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:35:56 -0400
Subject: wife beaters
In-Reply-To: <CPEBLEOMIFBBBHHMHKJGMEGCCAAA.Rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.183556.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is Texas that big?

dInIs

>|o| Some of the best culturally and linguistically preserved Polish
>|o| enclaves in America are in Texas
>
>I know that, but those are mostly in South Central & E-SE Texas, not a lot
>up around Lubbock in the panhandle.
>
>rhk

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 23 22:36:42 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:36:42 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <11c.130faac2.2a47743b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.183642.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Class or register?

dInIs

>The different pronunciations may have more to do with socio-economic levels
>than geography.  In New York, anyway, you typically heard news reporters,
>e.g., saying "root." When I worked in the Post Office in Queens in the 1970s,
>on the other hand, the mail carriers universally refrred to their delivery
>routes as "routs."
>
>Steve Boatti

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 23 23:15:54 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 19:15:54 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b93bfde85216@[35.12.21.202]>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.191554.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>Class or register?
>
>dInIs
>
>>The different pronunciations may have more to do with socio-economic levels
>>than geography.  In New York, anyway, you typically heard news reporters,
>>e.g., saying "root." When I worked in the Post Office in Queens in the 1970s,
>>on the other hand, the mail carriers universally refrred to their delivery
>>routes as "routs."

My gut feeling is that it's class. I know that, growing up in the New York
area, I heard both pronunciations in what, had I heard the term in high
school, would have been the same register.

But, while we're at it, let's not discount the idea of lexicalization in
process. Arguably, "route" in "postal route" is a different lexeme than
"route" in "route 22". Not that postal workers in Queens would have had any
reason to talk about Route 22 in Westchester and further north...

Alice


--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From LJT777 at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 23 23:29:01 2002
From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 19:29:01 EDT
Subject: Passing along a friend's query...
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.192901.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Odd question for you: Do you recall the name for a child's habit of
rhyming words, usually beginning the second word with a "w," as in
"shoesy-woosie" or "palsy-walsy" or "silly-willy"? I think there is such a
term, but my efforts have met with negative results.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 00:18:30 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:18:30 EDT
Subject: Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah (1922)
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.201830.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/23/2002 5:04:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

> In case anyone is unfamiliar with Reconstructionist Judaism, here's a
>  joke I just received:
>
>  Q:  How do Reconstructionists spell the name of the Deity?   Pr-cess.
>  A:  Pr-cess.

I used that joke in a posting to ADS-L on June 10.  I heard it from a woman
named Rachel Braun circa 1980, so it's been around for a while.

     - Jim Landau


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Mon Jun 24 00:29:04 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:29:04 -0400
Subject: Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah (1922)
In-Reply-To: <d8.198be73e.2a47bf56@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.202904.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 23 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

>In a message dated 06/23/2002 5:04:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
>> In case anyone is unfamiliar with Reconstructionist Judaism, here's a
>>  joke I just received:
>>
>>  Q:  How do Reconstructionists spell the name of the Deity?   Pr-cess.
>>  A:  Pr-cess.
>
>I used that joke in a posting to ADS-L on June 10.  I heard it from a woman
>named Rachel Braun circa 1980, so it's been around for a while.

I'm glad someone got it. I didn't. Why is the word repeated? And how is it
pronounced?

Bethany


From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Jun 24 00:36:10 2002
From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 19:36:10 -0500
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b93bfde85216@[35.12.21.202]>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.193610.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 6/23/02 5:36 PM, Dennis R. Preston at preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU wrote:

>> Class or register?
>
> dInIs
>
>> The different pronunciations may have more to do with socio-economic levels
>> than geography.  In New York, anyway, you typically heard news reporters,
>> e.g., saying "root." When I worked in the Post Office in Queens in the 1970s,
>> on the other hand, the mail carriers universally refrred to their delivery
>> routes as "routs."
>>
>> Steve Boatti

Several months ago when I was looking over a paper I'd written on the
Cherokee Trail of Tears through Missouri, I noticed that I'd used 'route' a
number of times and wondered how I would say the word as I gave the
presentation.  As I was reading it, I noticed that sometimes I said -u- and
sometimes -au- but couldn't think fast enough while reading to see if I
could tell why I had used one or the other, and afterward I couldn't
remember where I'd used each.

For some people, the rute-pronunciation (Northern) may be considered more
elegant, but for me they're just interchangeable, though I might consciously
opt for rute in a very formal situation in which I suspect some people more
persnickety than dInis might be in the audience.

DMLance


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 00:39:25 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:39:25 EDT
Subject: route
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.203925.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/23/2002 4:33:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU writes:

> I am trying to check if the root/raut pronunciation or "route" lines
>  up with the Mason-Dixon Line. Is this correct?

I habitually say /raut/ for the noun, even in "rout 66".  I was born and
raised in Louisville, Kentucky.  However, I always pronounce "wash" as
/warsh/, rhyming with "harsh".


My daughter, born and raised here in South Jersey, says /root/ and had to
stop and think before remembering that some people said /raut/.  (She also
says /wash/).

My wife, born and raised in Detroit (with summers in adjacent Canada) says
/raut/ for both noun and verb "route", /reraut/ for "reroute", and /wash/.

I think that many /root/-sayers will say /raut/ for the verb, perhaps to
avoid confusion with the verb "to root".  My daughter says that it sounds
wrong to her ear to use "route" (either pronunciation) as a verb, but she
does admit to the existence of a verb reroute, which she pronounces /reroot/
and I pronounce /reraut/.

Be careful with referring to the "Mason-Dixon Line" which in reality was the
border between Maryland and Pennsylvania.  Here in South Jersey (near
Atlantic City) we are south of that line, were it extended eastward, and
extended westward the line would run somewhere close to Indianapolis.

There is a carpenter's tool known as a "router" which in my experience is
always pronounced /rauter/.  Perhaps this is to avoid confusion with a
Rotorooter.  I wonder if the message-switching computer was phonetically
named after the carpenter's tool.

At the FAA Tech Center, I work with "en-route" systems (as opposed to
"terminal" systems, which deal with takeoffs and landings).  Everybody at
work calls it /enroot/.  An obvious suggestion is that the French spelling
inspired a French pronunciation.

      James A. Landau
      systems engineer
      FAA Tech Center (ACB-510/BCI)
     Atlantic City Airport NJ 08405 USA


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 00:47:31 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:47:31 EDT
Subject: wife beaters
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.204731.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/23/2002 12:30:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM writes:

> BTW, growing up, this kind of sleeveless t-shirt was known in my circle as a
>  Polish Smoking Jacket, which is odd because Polish was not a major ethnic
>  identity in North Texas.

"Polish Smoking Jacket" for a sleeveless shirt is an obvious Polack joke,
since by definition a jacket has sleeves (else it is a cloak).

Speaking of ethnic slurs, an American who had lived in Europe told me that
the Dutch tell jokes about dumb Belgians who in turn tell jokes about stingy
Dutch (the example she gave was "How can you tell you're in the Netherlands?
By the toilet paper hanging up to dry on the clotheslines.")

      - Jim Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 01:09:59 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:09:59 EDT
Subject: Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah (1922)
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.210959.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/23/2002 8:29:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes:

> >>  Q:  How do Reconstructionists spell the name of the Deity?   Pr-cess.
>  >>  A:  Pr-cess.
>
>  I'm glad someone got it. I didn't. Why is the word repeated? And how is it
>  pronounced?
>

Repeating the word was a typo.

As for "how it is proinounced?", the proper question is whether it is
pronounced.

The Old Testament generally uses one of two names for the Deity.  One is
"Elohim"(frequently shortened to "El"), usually translated as "God".  The
other is the Tetragram, consisting of the four consonants Y-H-V-H (or if
you're German, as the leading Biblical scholars were in the 19th Century,
J-H-W-H), generally translated into English as "Lord" although "Eternal"
would be more accurate.  There is much colorful lore and mysticism about the
Tetragram, but for this discussion all you need to know is that
1)  the Name (that is, the Tetragram with the proper vowels) was only to be
uttered by the High Priest
2) the proper vowels have been lost
3) the Tetragram (in Hebrew, not Latin, letters) must be written only in holy
works, or more exactly, writing the Tetragram makes the parchment or paper
holy and therefore requiring special handling.

So what happened when Jews moved into the English-speaking world?  Some pious
Jews felt that it was wrong to write the English name of the Deity, and so a
custom grew up among SOME Jews to write "G-d" instead of "God".  (You will
not that I do not follow this tradition.)

Imagine the consternation of a Gentile who was an English teacher at a Jewish
day school.  He assigned some homework about Jonathan Edwards and to his
total confusion received papers talking about "Sinners in the Hands of an
Angry G-d".

Reconstructionism is more interested in Judaism as a community than in the
spiritual side of Judaism.  (Someone correct me here if I'm wrong).  Hence to
them the Deity is more of a Process than a Being, or something like that.

The spelling "Pr-cess" is therefore a satirical in-joke.

     - Jim Landau

P.S.  "Bethany" is Hebrew for "my house"


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 01:22:23 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:22:23 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0206201812230.19150-100000@larry.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.212223.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:17 PM -0400 6/20/02, Bethany K. Dumas wrote:
>On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Jesse Sheidlower commented on the sense of
>"machinable."
>
>I have been wondering about the range of the -able adjectives. The state
>of TN sells a wildlife license plate whose slogan I find particularly
>obnoxious: Watchable Wildlife.
>
>I suppose that anything visible is "watchable." I also suppose that by
>"watchable" the state means something like "worth watching" or "beautiful
>to look at" - doesn't seem to work, to me.
>
>Bethany

Mebbe so, but "watch-worthy wildlife", despite its catchy
alliteration, sounds more as though it's limited to those beasts that
one might consider gifting with a portable timepiece, which
eliminates too many of the intended referents.  (All but maybe apes
and monkeys, and of course kangaroos and wallabies, who could sport a
pocket watch.)  A number of -able adjectives *have* lexicalized into
fossilized meanings or uses--"lovable" (not just 'capable of being
loved') for one, and of course "comfortable".  TN is just trying to
move the process along here.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 01:27:11 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:27:11 -0400
Subject: It's a good thing
In-Reply-To: <D9BA04198D5C154F901F45D28E4866B5012D41BD@phex01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.212711.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:30 PM -0400 6/20/02, Baker, John wrote:
>There's a subtle difference in emphases.  "It's a good thing!",
>meaning the alternative would be very bad, has been around for a
>long time, as Barry has already shown.  "X was a Good Thing" is in
>1066 and All That (which I'm currently reading to my 10-year-old
>daughter - not an obvious choice, but she seems to like it O.K.).
>Martha's by-word is "It's a _good_ thing."
>
>I don't know how you would go about antedating distinctions that are
>this subtle.
>
>John Baker
>
Well, I'm pretty sure the capitalized version of "(be a) Good Thing"
is from 1066&AT, so at least a case sensitive antedate would pick
that up.

larry


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Mon Jun 24 01:37:34 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:37:34 -0400
Subject: Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah (1922)
In-Reply-To: <18d.9a6ee2e.2a47cb67@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.213734.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 23 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

>P.S.  "Bethany" is Hebrew for "my house"

I have heard several translations. "Beth" is clearly house, though.

Bethany


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Mon Jun 24 01:49:12 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:49:12 -0400
Subject: wife beaters
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b93babb0ee13@[35.12.22.76]>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.214912.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 23 Jun 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

#Some of the best culturally and linguistically preserved Polish
#enclaves in America are in Texas (although that is no requirement for
#"Polish jokes" - psiakrew cholera!).

What's "psiakrew cholera"?

-- Mark M.


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 01:54:43 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:54:43 -0400
Subject: wife beaters
In-Reply-To: <21.1fdef6be.2a47c623@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.215443.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James A. Landau wrote:

>Speaking of ethnic slurs, an American who had lived in Europe told me that
>the Dutch tell jokes about dumb Belgians who in turn tell jokes about stingy
>Dutch (the example she gave was "How can you tell you're in the Netherlands?
>By the toilet paper hanging up to dry on the clotheslines.")


When I studied in Israel in the early 70s, that one was told (in Hebrew)
about the Scots.

Alice


--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 03:24:46 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 23:24:46 -0400
Subject: "Windy City" in today's Wash. Post
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.232446.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the WASHINGTON POST, 23 June 2002 (Dow Jones database):

_You Go, Studs; Chicago Is Terkel's Kinda Town_
by Cindy Loose
(...)
   I also learn that the "Windy CIty" is actually the country's 14th windiest city, and the nickname had nothing to do with wind.  New York leaders coined the phrase in the 1890s after talkative civic leaders from Chicago who kept "blabbing about how great Chicago was in order to win a world's fair," a tour guide says.

(Awright, so you can add the Washington Post to the list of national newspapers to get this wrong and probably not correct it.  But what I wanna know is, why is a girl named Loose hanging out with a guy named Studs?--ed.)


From dave at WILTON.NET  Mon Jun 24 03:57:32 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:57:32 -0700
Subject: wife beaters
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020623215403.00a886e8@haskins.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.205732.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> >Speaking of ethnic slurs, an American who had lived in
> Europe told me that
> >the Dutch tell jokes about dumb Belgians who in turn tell
> jokes about stingy
> >Dutch (the example she gave was "How can you tell you're in
> the Netherlands?
> >By the toilet paper hanging up to dry on the clotheslines.")
>
>
> When I studied in Israel in the early 70s, that one was told
> (in Hebrew)
> about the Scots.

My sister-in-law, when visiting Poland in the late-70s, encountered the
"Soviet Soldier" joke. The jokes were identical to the Polish jokes told in
the US, only they were about Soviet soldiers instead of Poles.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Mon Jun 24 05:13:44 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:13:44 -0700
Subject: route : /rawt/ vs /ruwt/
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.221344.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I think, perhaps to demystify Don's (and others') uncertainty
about the "appropriate" pronunciation of <route>, that the word (and all
of its users) has been the victim of the same sort of prescriptive
pedagogical myth that restored the /t/ in <often> for many speakers.
As an obvious pre-Great Vowel Shift borrowing from French (MW10 gives 13th
c.), the original /uw/ underwent the regular shift to /aw/ (/aew/ in
Southern US varieties). More recently, some would-be "purists" fastened
upon the notion that this is properly a French word (perhaps influenced by
the more recently borrowed phrase <en route>, with /uw/, as Jim suggests),
and the Miss Fidditches of the world (Martin Joos' favorite straw woman)
leaped/leapt on it as another wonderful opportunity to civilize the
uncouth ruffians in their charge. [As usual, consistency be damned, or
else every other Middle English French borrowing would have to have its
original pronunciation restored.]
        My own native pronunciation of <route> is with /aew/, which I
learned early from living in the country with the address of Route 2, Box
58. Somewhere along the line I was exposed to the manufactured
prescriptivism that the "correct" pronuciation was with /uw/, "because it
is a French word", but I have always resolutely resisted this pernicious
effort at language engineering for myself, while respecting the choice of
those who accepted it.
        Many people I have known have had their phonological storage for
this lexical item tampered with, whether they remembered the source of the
influence or not, but often retained the original /aw/ in fixed phrases
such as "paper route", as Doug (I think it was) indicated [this very fact
says something significant about the locus of lexical storage in the
brain]. When the popular TV show "Route 66" was on, it amused me that many
of the viewers of this "/ruwt/ 66", as it was pronounced, lived on /rawt/
66.
        The several responses indicating variation or insecurity, even
from Northerners, points to this retro-shift having been a fairly recent
introduction. My guess is that it originated primarily in the Northeast,
which was (a) most influenced by the prestige of French, and (b) the most
educationally advanced in terms of the training of teachers in the 19th
century. However and wherever the myth originated -- undoubtedly
reinforced by British RP, pointing further to the Northeast -- my
hypothesis is that it was mediated through schoolteachers, and thus began
to acquire a class/register [DInIs] tinge as well as a regional one, but
probably more significantly in the 20th century, as enlightenment spread
to the hinterlands, beginning with the cities, an urban vs rural (also
linked to class/register) quality. Noah Webster preferred /rawt/,
according to his "blue-backed speller".
        The preservation of /aw/ in <router>, noted by Jim and Don, is a
further nice example of lexical separation, and lack of contamination from
the retro-shift. [NB: I wonder how many /t/-users in <often> use it in the
somewhat rarer comparative <oftener>? ] Jim Landau's evidence from his
daughter is a valuable indication pointing to the completion of the shift
within her age/area group, but I find that it is still in progress among
many of my students.
        It is difficult to trace pronunciation changes back through time,
for data prior to the Linguistic Atlas, but a good master's thesis or
article for American Speech awaits being written.

        Rudy


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Mon Jun 24 05:24:07 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:24:07 -0700
Subject: Router
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.222407.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My apologies to Dave Wilton for not crediting him with having been the
first to mention the /aw/ pronuciation of <router>.

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 06:06:01 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 02:06:01 EDT
Subject: Food in THE TASTE OF YIDDISH (1970)
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.020601.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE TASTE OF YIDDISH
by Lillian Mermin Feinsilver
South Brunswick, NJ:  Thomas Yoseloff
1970

   This is a book on Yiddish, not a book on food, but the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA
OF AMERICAN FOOD should take note.  OED cites from it 29 times.  It's OED
first cite for "schmatte" (this is not good).
    The book mainly is New York City in the 1950s and 1960s, but there are
some surprising things missing.  "Beygel" and "schmear" are here, but I
didn't see "bagel mit schmear."  The "whole schmear" and the "whole megillah"
are here, but not the "whole nine yards."  "Rugelach" is not here. "Jewish
penicillin" is not here.   "Go figure" is not here.  Go figure.

Pp. 54-55:  THE YIDDISH TAM...TASTE.
(Chapter and section heads--ed.)

Pg. 75:  Lit., Don't mix KASHE with BORCHT.

Pg. 149:  ...EPPES ESSEN...

Pg. 172:  FOOD AND DRINK.
(Section title.  The longest entries follow--ed.)
Pg. 175:  BEYGEL.
Pg. 178:  BLINTZES.
Pg. 179:  BORSHT.
Pg. 184:  FRESSER
Pg. 186:  GEFILTE FISH.
Pg. 190:  KISHKE.
Pg. 192:  KREPLACH...KUGEL.
Pg. 198:  SHTRUDEL.
Pg. 199:  TAM.
Pg. 201:  TSIMMES.
Pg. 202:  ZUP..

Pg. 224:  AFIKEYMEN.

Pp. 242-243:  KASHRES.

Pp. 260-261:  SEYDER.

Pg. 282:  LOKSH (derisive)  An Italian.  The word means "noodle"...

Pg. 299:  BAGEL.

Pg. 303:  "DAIRY" FOR "DAIRY PRODUCTS"..."DANISH" FOR "DANISH PASTRY".

Pg. 314:  HOW SWEET IT IS!...OY, IZ DOS ZIS!

Pg. 322:  KOSHER; NOT SO KOSHER.

Pg. 323:  MATZO, MATZOH.

Pg. 328:  NOSH.

Pg. 333:  SHMALTZ, SCHMATLZ, SCHMALZ, ETC.

Pg. 334:  "Everything that's happening in New York is in that play...the
whole schmear..."
(Review from February 1969--ed.)

Pg. 342:  THE APPLE DOESN'T FALL FAR FROM THE TREE....DER EPL FALT NIT VAYT
FUN BEYM.

Pg. 357:  A WHOLE MEGILLE...BIALYS...BLINTZKRIEG.

Pg. 358:  BORSHT BELT...BORSHT CIRCUIT.

Pg. 359:  CHEAP LIKE BORSHT.

Pg. 360:  "FA'MISHT" FOR "FAMISHED"...Al Capp used this pun in _Li'l Abner_:
"Breeng Food; I am Fameeshed."

Pg. 365:  NOT TO KNOW BORSHT.

Pg. 366:  OH, BORSHT!

(Look for this used book on Bookfinder.com or other places and buy it!--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 08:08:29 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 04:08:29 EDT
Subject: Pain in the neck,
 Nu (1896); Tzatzkes (1898); Madame Klesmer (1917)
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.040829.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Abraham Cahan was a founder of the JEWISH DAILY FORWARD. A check of his
name shows only one OED hit, for "tea."  One!  However, the revised OED (not
linked to the general search engine--hey, I didn't do this computer program)
shows that Cahan's THE RISE OF DAVID LEVINSKY (1917) is the first citation
for "matzo ball."
   Back in my unsuccessful playwriting days (when I made nothing at all, or
about $100 less than I've made from etymology the past ten years), I met
Isaiah Sheffer (director of Symphony Space).  At that time, Sheffer was doing
an Off-Broadway musical titled THE RISE OF DAVID LEVINSKY, based on the book.
   Cahan perhaps wanted to sell LEVINSKY to a general audience; the Yiddish
we expect to see shows up, for example, as "woe is me."  Oi vay!  But the
book is still worth reading.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
YEKL: A TALE OF THE NEW YORK GHETTO
by Abraham Cahan
New York: D. Appleton and Company

Pg. 3:  Like here, in New York, where the Jews are a _lot_ of _greenhornsh_
and can not speak a word of English.

Pg. 17:  ...the two being what is called in sweat-shop parlance,
"_chance-mentshen_," i. e., favorites.

Pg. 34:  Such _shnoozes_, they can hardly set a foot well, and yet they are
free, while I am a married man.

Pg. 38:  You knaw I don' like no monkey beeshnesh.

Pg. 40:  It don' cut a figger, shee?

Pg. 53:  During the three years since he had set foot on the soil, where a
"shister* becomes a mister and a mister a shister," he had lived so much more
than three years--so much more.
*Yiddish for shoemaker.

Pg. 65:  Sanctification again, and sit by his side, opposite to mother, and
receive from her hand a plate of reeking _tzimess_,* as of yore!
*A kind of dessert made of carrots or turnips.
(OED has it from 1892--ed.)

Pg. 73:  "_Oi_ a lamentation upon me!"

Pg. 75:  "You look like a _poritz_,"* she said shyly.
*Yiddish for nobleman.

Pg. 78:  "_Oi_ woe is me!"

Pg. 80:  "Where do you eat your _varimess_?"*
   "Don't say varimess," he corrected her complaisantly; "here it is called
_dinner_."
   "_Dinner_?"**  And what if one becomes fatter?"
*Yiddish for dinner.
**Yiddish for thinner.

Pg. 85:  "Quite a _panenke_!"*
*A young noblewoman.

Pg. 95:  ...she will _oyshgreen_* herself...
*A verb coined from the Yiddish _oys_, out, and the English _green_, and
signifying to cease being green.

Pg. 97:  ..._borshtch_*...
*A sour soup of cabbage and beets.

Pg. 101:  ..._shadchen_*...
*A matrimonial agent.

Pg. 119:  "Here a husband must remember--"_ladas foist_"--but then you do not
even know what that means!"
(OED has only one hit for "ladies first"?--ed.)

Pg. 127:  "Not unless your wife drags along with you and never lets go of
your skirts," she said sneeringly, adding the declaration that Jake's
"bluffs" gave her a "reg'ula' pain in de neck."
(OED has 1924 for "pain in the neck"?  Not under "neck" in RHHDAS?--ed.)

Pg. 139:  _Nu, sir_!"
(OED has 1892, then 1945 for "nu"--ed.)

Pg. 149:  "What punishment is due to me, then, if I can not stand a _shnooza_
like her?  It is _nu ushed_; I can not live with her, even if she stand one
foot on heaven and one on earth."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
THE IMPORTED BRIDEGROOM
AND OTHER STORIES OF THE NEW YORK GHETTO
by Abraham Cahan
Boston: Houghton, Mifflin and Company
1898

Pg. 8:  "Show a _treif_* gendarme a _kosher_** coin, and he will be shivering
with ague."
*Food not prepared according to the laws of Moses; impure.
**The opposite of _treif_.

Pg. 13:  He recognized the plushy clover knobs in the vast array of placid
magnificence, and the dandelions and the golden buttercups, although his poor
mother-tongue could not afford a special name for each flower, and he now
addressed them collectively as _tzatzkes_--a word he had not used for
thirty-five years.

Pg. 39:  ..._mazol-tovs_ (congratulations)...

Pg. 55:  Is she going to be a _rabbitzen_ (a rabbi's wife)?
(No OED entry for this word--ed.)

Pg. 68:  "The boy is a _gaon_,"* the corpulent old man remarked humbly.
"What a head!  What a memory, what a _chariff_!"**
   "Yes, and what a _bokki_!"***
*A genius.
**A man of erudition.
***Acute intellect.

Pg. 95:  "He is an _appikoros_."*
*Epicurean; atheist.

Pg. 100:  "Have you been to the Mariv service?" Shaya intervened.
(The revised OED has only 1892, then 1904 for "Maariv"?--ed.)

Pg. 123:  Rouvke's hair is now entirely free from the pair of sidelocks, or
_peieths_, which dangled over his ears when he first set foot on American
soil...

Pg. 124:  But "bishness is bishness," as Rouvke would put it.

Pg. 145:  _Choson_ is a term applied to a Jewish young man, embracing the
period from the time he is placed on the matrimonial market down to the
termination of the nuptial festivities.  There is all the difference in the
world between a choson and a common unmarried mortal of the male sex, who is
left to the bare designation of _bocher_...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
THE RISE OF DAVID LEVINSKY
by Abraham Cahan
1917
(I don't know the publisher.  This is a 1969 reprint by Peter Smith--ed.)

Pg. 23:  ...calling him something the equivalent to "Sissy."

Pg. 160:  ...Madame Klesmer...
(A character named after the word "klezmer."  Look it up in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 181:  "I don't care what you say, but of what use is a good heart unless
he has some jinglers* to go with it?"
*Coin, money.
(RHHDAS has 1906 from Australia, then 1933--ed.)

Pg. 233:  We were eating cold sorrel soup, prepared in the old Ghetto way,
with cream, bits of boiled egg, cucumber, and scallions.

Pg. 238:  "Don't bite off more than you can chew, Levinsky," he would tell
me.

Pg. 241:  One of his ways of being tremendously American was to snap his
fingers ferociously and to say, "I don't care a continental!" or, "One, two,
three, and there you are!"  The latter exclamation he would be continually
murmuring to himself when he was absorbed in pinochle.

Pg. 271:  "A bunch of good-for-nothings, too lazy to work, will stir up
trouble, and there you are."
(See prior ADS-L posting on Professor Irwin Corey's alleged coinage of "And
there you are!"--ed.)

Pg. 298:  "But what's up?"
(WHAZZUP?--ed.)

Pg. 247:  I looked upon poor people with more contempt than ever.  I still
called them "misfits," in a Darwinian sense.
("Misfits" is a nice cite here.  Levinsky's business is the clothing trade.
The revised OED does not cite this work--ed.)

Pg. 404:  In addition to families who were there for the whole season--that
is,k from the Fourth of July to the first Monday in October--the hotel
contained a considerable number of single young people, of both
sexes--salesmen, stenographers, bookkeepers, librarians--who came for a
fortnight's vacation.  These were known as "two-weekers."
(The reference is to the Catskills, not then called the "Borsht
Circuit"--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Jun 24 11:29:13 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 07:29:13 -0400
Subject: Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah (1922)
In-Reply-To: <18d.9a6ee2e.2a47cb67@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.072913.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... the Deity is more of a Process .... The spelling "Pr-cess" is
>therefore a satirical in-joke.

And here I'd been reading it "Princess"!

-- Doug Wilson


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Jun 24 11:40:37 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 07:40:37 -0400
Subject: wife beaters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206232148550.2828439-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.074037.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Literally "dog's blood cholera"; a (mild) oath; an elaboration of
"cholera," itself a mild oath. (Also "cholera jasna" - 'clear
cholera.')

Prestonski




>On Sun, 23 Jun 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>#Some of the best culturally and linguistically preserved Polish
>#enclaves in America are in Texas (although that is no requirement for
>#"Polish jokes" - psiakrew cholera!).
>
>What's "psiakrew cholera"?
>
>-- Mark M.

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Jun 24 11:45:15 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 07:45:15 -0400
Subject: Real Polish jokes
In-Reply-To: <000701c21b33$453357f0$0300a8c0@HPN5290>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.074515.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Although there were stupid Russian jokes at that time, stupid police
jokes were much more plentiful.

A policeman goes to a bookstore; an amazed clerk asks if he can help.
The policeman says he's tired of being made fun of for his stupidity
and understands that reading will improve his mind. What would the
clerk suggest? The clerk opines that some light reading would be a
good place to start. The policeman responds that that is not
necessary; he has his car right out front.

Prestonski



>  > >Speaking of ethnic slurs, an American who had lived in
>>  Europe told me that
>>  >the Dutch tell jokes about dumb Belgians who in turn tell
>>  jokes about stingy
>>  >Dutch (the example she gave was "How can you tell you're in
>>  the Netherlands?
>>  >By the toilet paper hanging up to dry on the clotheslines.")
>>
>>
>>  When I studied in Israel in the early 70s, that one was told
>>  (in Hebrew)
>>  about the Scots.
>
>My sister-in-law, when visiting Poland in the late-70s, encountered the
>"Soviet Soldier" joke. The jokes were identical to the Polish jokes told in
>the US, only they were about Soviet soldiers instead of Poles.

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Mon Jun 24 12:06:41 2002
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:06:41 -0400
Subject: targets of ethnic jokes
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.080641.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Italian jokes of my downstate NY youth were Polish jokes upstate; when I
came to Ohio they became WV jokes and on my Fulbright to Germany they
transmuted into Fries jokes.  Friesland (Frisia) is the narrow coastal strip
of the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark that borders the North Sea. In
Toulouse on a subsequent exchange I was told the French looked down on the
Belgians but I heard no jokes at their expense.

Ex:   Q: "How do you tell the bride at a [insert ethnic group here] wedding?
A: She's the one with the clean T-shirt."
_________________________________
"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
--Albert Einstein


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Jun 24 12:42:32 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:42:32 -0400
Subject: targets of ethnic jokes
In-Reply-To: <000a01c21b77$9af1ef00$c50103d8@dbergdah1>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.084232.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>T-shirts are too ubiquitous. I much prefer

Q. How do you tell the bride at a [insert group] wedding?

A: She's the one in a sequined bowling shirt.

dInIs



>The Italian jokes of my downstate NY youth were Polish jokes upstate; when I
>came to Ohio they became WV jokes and on my Fulbright to Germany they
>transmuted into Fries jokes.  Friesland (Frisia) is the narrow coastal strip
>of the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark that borders the North Sea. In
>Toulouse on a subsequent exchange I was told the French looked down on the
>Belgians but I heard no jokes at their expense.
>
>Ex:   Q: "How do you tell the bride at a [insert ethnic group here] wedding?
>A: She's the one with the clean T-shirt."
>_________________________________
>"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
>--Albert Einstein

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 24 12:43:36 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 05:43:36 -0700
Subject: "Watchable wildlife"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0206211653410.21157-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.054336.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've taken the phrase to mean wildlife that is not
intended for wildlife harvest, that is - hunting.


--- "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU>
wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, George Thompson wrote:
>
> >"Watchable wildlife" means "wildlife available for
> watching"
> >or "accesible to wildlife watchers".  One guidebook
> company (Falcon, of
>
> Means that to whom? The license plates have photos
> of birds on them. It
> would never have occurred to me that the legislature
> meant "accessible to
> wildlife watchers."
>
> Bethany


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Jun 24 14:25:31 2002
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:25:31 -0400
Subject: "Watchable wildlife" & ethnic jokes
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.102531.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Actually, no, I can't imagine myself ever saying "let's go to Tennessee
this summer; I see from their license plates that there is a lot of
watchable wildlife there."  In fact, I think I have only come upon the
word as the series title of the guidebooks I mentioned in my original
post.

Also, with reference to the butts of ethnic jokes: a few years ago I
bought a book called "Newfie Jokes", based on the stupidity of people
from Newfoundland.  Presumably this stereotype is widespread in the
rest of Canada?  Or else the compiler & publisher would not have used
this hook to hang these traditional ethnic slurs on.  Bibliographic
data and a few sample jokes upon request.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU>
Date: Friday, June 21, 2002 9:44 pm
Subject: Re: "Watchable wildlife"

> On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, George Thompson wrote:
>
> >One never knows what a legislature intends.  But among wildlife-
> >voyeurs, of which I am one, I think the phrase is taken to mean that
> >whereas most wildlife, other than birds, is elusive and seldom seen,
> >there are some spots where the chances of seeing an interesting
> critter>is better than usual.  I recall being referred to the town
> dump in
>
> Interesting. Don't go back into hiding yet, please. Do wildlife
> voyeursactually use the word "watchable" that way - or do you just
> accept that
> others do? I.e., would you say that such-a-such a place has lots of
> "watchable wildlife"?
>
> Bethany
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 03:09:35 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 23:09:35 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <20020621165535.GA10453@panix.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.230935.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:55 PM -0400 6/21/02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 12:49:41PM -0400, Steve Kl. wrote:
>>  On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
>>
>>  > "American and British dictionaries have no clear notion of the female
>>  > genitals." Visit: www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index/htm. (Hint: click
>>  > "Trademark Affidavits").
>>
>>  I couldn't access this page.
>>
>>  Is the URL right?
>
>No, it should end in "index.htm"
>                            ^
>
Very nice treatments.  I've actually written papers on both lexical
clones (Tom's page 3) and un-nouns (his page 4), and heartily endorse
the gist of his presentations here, although I've argued that each of
the constructions is somewhat more complex that what Tom is able to
provide in his affidavits (I'd better, since I've devoted a whole lot
more ink/electrons to these constructions in my format than Tom could
do in his).  In particular, I've divided (in "Un-Covering the
Un-Word", published in the Japanese journal Sophia Linguistica 49
(2002): 1-64) the class of un-nouns into two groups, the A (for
"Almost")-class un-noun, in which an unX is almost (but not quite) a
member of the category X, as in "un-cola" or "un-petroleum lip jelly"
(my cite is not quite the same as Tom's but close--

"Un-Petroleum(TM) Lip Jelly(TM)
Un-Chap® your lips"
(Label on product manufactured by Autumn Harp, Bristol, Vermont)

--and I wonder whether this is indeed the company to which Tom refers
in his affidavit), vs. the B (for "Barely")-class un-noun, in which
an unY is indeed a member of the category Y, but not a prototype
member (in Rosch's sense), i.e. not a Y Y.  There are some nice
examples that oppose a B-class un-noun with a lexical clone, as in:

Undesign:  Moving Away from Aggressive Décor
(NYT headline, 2 June 1988, C6)
"Nothing is 'design designed'.  Nothing has a signature."
-New York architect Diana Agrest

or, for that matter, an anti-clone like the "un-diet diet".

--larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 03:28:59 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 23:28:59 -0400
Subject: Fronter and Backer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0206212117350.21773-100000@bast.u.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.232859.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:25 PM -0700 6/21/02, Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>Matthew,
>
>         I'd certainly say this in class, right along with higher and
>lower, but some intuition tells me I probably wouldn't write it, resorting
>instead to the awkward locution "further front" and "further back". I
>certainly could not bring myself to use "more front" or "more back". Larry
>will probably tell us that "front" and "back" are not gradable per se. It
>is interesting that one dimension would be gradadable and another not.
>Thanks for bringing this to our attention (it's always interesting how
>out-of-awareness so much of language is, even for linguists).
>
>         Rudy
>
>P.S. I do use (in class) Haj Ross' famous "squish" comparisons: some words
>are nounier and other words are verbier.

and some adjectives are gradabler than others

In principle, "front" and "back" SHOULD be gradable for vowels, but
as you say they don't seem to be--"How front/back was that /a/?"
sounds as weird as the analytic and synthetic comparatives above.  I
share Rudy's judgments and usage patterns, I think.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 04:35:17 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 00:35:17 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <CPEBLEOMIFBBBHHMHKJGGEGECAAA.Rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.003517.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:02 PM -0400 6/23/02, Rick H Kennerly wrote:
>|o| e.g., saying "root." When I worked in the Post Office in Queens
>|o| in the 1970s,
>|o| on the other hand, the mail carriers universally referred to
>|o| their delivery
>|o| routes as "routs."
>
>I'd never considered this but in my computer repair days, I had a rout--a
>set of regular stops.  But if on vacation, I would plot a root on the
>highway map, but I'd stop enrout to sleep.

For me, these would be "rout", "root", but "enroot" rather than "enrout"

larry (<new york and elsewhere)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 04:35:07 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 00:35:07 -0400
Subject: Jack Buck's "That's a winner!"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020623164135.00a880a0@haskins.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.003507.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:43 PM -0400 6/23/02, Alice Faber wrote:
>Laurence Horn wrote:
>>At 11:25 AM -0500 6/19/02, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
>>>
>>>I grew up in St. Louis with Jack Buck. He had the most unmistakable voice
>>>in broadcasting and radio will be less without him.
>>>[quoting some obituary:]
>>>  >From the 1985 World Series he is often remembered for the "Go Crazy Folks,
>>>Go Crazy!" jubilant cry at the game and series winning home run.
>>Can anyone clarify this reference for me?  First of all, it was
>>Kansas City that won that series (and the Cardinals that lost), and I
>>suspect Buck was enough of a homer [in the 'subjective', not
>>'four-bagger' sense] not to have exulted quite that jubilantly at the
>>result.  Second, the series-deciding 7th game was something like 9-0
>>(Saberhagen pitching the shutout), so there was no 'game and series
>>winning home run'.  Perhaps the playoffs (NLCS) preceding the series,
>>when the Cards beat the Dodgers on Jack Clark's homer, IIRC?
>
>By the third time that I saw the SportsCenter retrospective on Jack Buck, I
>finally figured out that this call was from the end of game 6 of that
>series. Ozzie's homer capped a come-from behind rally and forced a game 7.
>I suppose I *could* check retrosheet, but I *should* weed my veggie garden.
>
No, you're quite likely right.  Ozzie's blow was much more unexpected
and hence jubilacient, although less ultimately decisive, than
Clark's homer, which as I recall was foreordained when Lasorda didn't
have Niedenfuhr walk him intentionally.  Anyway, it wasn't from the
World Series.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 04:57:45 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 00:57:45 -0400
Subject: OED appeals-give him one
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20020621125112.03d32950@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.005745.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:43 PM -0400 6/21/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>
>BTW, "drifter" reminds me of "Grifter."  I never saw that movie; what the
>heck is a grifter?
>
A con man (or woman).  The movie you mention (The Grifters) is pretty
good, but depressing, as I recall--Anjelica Huston, Annette Bening,
and (in an atypical role) John Cusack, from the early '90's, based on
a story by Jim Thompson.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 14:54:47 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:54:47 -0400
Subject: Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah (1922)
In-Reply-To: <18d.9a6ee2e.2a47cb67@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.105447.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:09 PM -0400 6/23/02, James A. Landau wrote:
>In a message dated 06/23/2002 8:29:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes:
>
>>  >>  Q:  How do Reconstructionists spell the name of the Deity?   Pr-cess.
>>   >>  A:  Pr-cess.
>>
>>   I'm glad someone got it. I didn't. Why is the word repeated? And how is it
>>   pronounced?
>>
>
>Repeating the word was a typo.

Indeed; my bad.  And the rest of Jim's exegesis is exactly correct.

>
>As for "how it is proinounced?", the proper question is whether it is
>pronounced.
>
>The Old Testament generally uses one of two names for the Deity.  One is
>"Elohim"(frequently shortened to "El"), usually translated as "God".  The
>other is the Tetragram, consisting of the four consonants Y-H-V-H (or if
>you're German, as the leading Biblical scholars were in the 19th Century,
>J-H-W-H), generally translated into English as "Lord" although "Eternal"
>would be more accurate.  There is much colorful lore and mysticism about the
>Tetragram, but for this discussion all you need to know is that
>1)  the Name (that is, the Tetragram with the proper vowels) was only to be
>uttered by the High Priest
>2) the proper vowels have been lost
>3) the Tetragram (in Hebrew, not Latin, letters) must be written only in holy
>works, or more exactly, writing the Tetragram makes the parchment or paper
>holy and therefore requiring special handling.
>
>So what happened when Jews moved into the English-speaking world?  Some pious
>Jews felt that it was wrong to write the English name of the Deity, and so a
>custom grew up among SOME Jews to write "G-d" instead of "God".  (You will
>not that I do not follow this tradition.)

There's also a hot and ongoing dispute about whether it's OK for the
name to appear on a computer screen, given the temporary nature of
this electronic appearance.

>
>Imagine the consternation of a Gentile who was an English teacher at a Jewish
>day school.  He assigned some homework about Jonathan Edwards and to his
>total confusion received papers talking about "Sinners in the Hands of an
>Angry G-d".
>
>Reconstructionism is more interested in Judaism as a community than in the
>spiritual side of Judaism.  (Someone correct me here if I'm wrong).  Hence to
>them the Deity is more of a Process than a Being, or something like that.
>
>The spelling "Pr-cess" is therefore a satirical in-joke.
>
>      - Jim Landau
>
>P.S.  "Bethany" is Hebrew for "my house"


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 15:03:23 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:03:23 -0400
Subject: "Watchable wildlife" & ethnic jokes
In-Reply-To: <28e862428e83e6.28e83e628e8624@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.110323.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:25 AM -0400 6/24/02, George Thompson wrote:
>Actually, no, I can't imagine myself ever saying "let's go to Tennessee
>this summer; I see from their license plates that there is a lot of
>watchable wildlife there."  In fact, I think I have only come upon the
>word as the series title of the guidebooks I mentioned in my original
>post.
>
>Also, with reference to the butts of ethnic jokes: a few years ago I
>bought a book called "Newfie Jokes", based on the stupidity of people
>from Newfoundland.  Presumably this stereotype is widespread in the
>rest of Canada?  Or else the compiler & publisher would not have used
>this hook to hang these traditional ethnic slurs on.  Bibliographic
>data and a few sample jokes upon request.
>
Definitely.  I've heard a few from Torontonians, and as I understand
it's a general stereotype at least among eastern Canadians.

larry


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Jun 24 16:16:50 2002
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:16:50 -0400
Subject: Asser Levy (-1681), NYC's first kosher butcher
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.121650.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Isaac Stokes' Iconography of Manhattan Island only cites two
contemporary sources regarding Asser Levy's activity as a butcher.  The
Iconography was compiled more that 80 years ago, but I don't suppose
that any more is likely to have been found.

In 1660, Levy and 5 others asked to be "sworn butchers", a licensed and
regulated monopoly, and were accepted.  Part 4 of their oath fixed the
prices for their services, and specified that they might charge $1 for
killing a hog.  "Then Asser Levy requests to be excused from killing
hogs, as his religion does not allow him to do it, which was granted
him.  And they accordingly took the . . . Oath except Asser aforesaid,
who took the oath, which the Jews are accustomed to take."  Berthold
Fernow, The Records of New Amsterdam, vol. 7, 1898, pp. 258-59.

In January, 1677/78, Ashur Levy asked permission to build a slaughter
house, "and to take in Garret Janson Rose to be Partner with him
therein, and that all persons should have Liberty to kill & hang theire
Meat there, paying for the same as formerly in other places."  Minutes
of the Common Council of the City of New York, 1675-1766, 1905, vol. 1,
pp. 67-68.

So the records don't contain the word "kosher" or any equivalent.  I'm
not sure whether NY had a sufficiently large Jewish population in the
1660s to support an exclusively kosher butcher, and the records don't
indicate that Levy was exempt from being required to butcher beef in
the fashion preferred by the goyim.  I do not see his partner Rose, aka
Roos, in Malcolm Stern's First American Jewish Families: 600
genealogies, 3rd ed., 1991, so either he wasn't Jewish or didn't leave
a family.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Date: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 4:19 am
Subject: Asser Levy (-1681), NYC's first kosher butcher

> ASSER LEVY (-1681), FIRST KOSHER BUTCHER
>
>   Again, I haven't seen the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN
> FOOD's entry on
> "kosher."  I could be duplicating what's already there--which I
> suppose is
> good.
>   Various web sites list New York's (New Amsterdam's) Asser Levy as
> America's first kosher butcher.  He opened up shop November 15,
> 1660, or
> October 15, 1660, or in 1655 (these web sites vary).
>   What evidence is there of this, when our first record for the word
> "kosher" is 200 years later?
>   Hot dog, I've got to solve this.  My etymology serves a higher
> authority.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> BAT MITZVAH
>
>   I'll look in the publications:
>
> AMERICAN HEBREW
> B'NAI B'RITH MAGAZINE
> THE YOUNG JUDAEAN
> NEWS LETTER (National Council of Jewish Women, 1933-1939)
> COUNCIL WOMAN (1940-1978)
> DER IDISHER FROYEN ZSHURNAL (Jewish Women's Home Journal, 1922-1923)
>
>   Bat Mitzvah and bagels is all I ask.  Plus latkes and rugelach.
>


From Ittaob at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 16:32:36 2002
From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:32:36 EDT
Subject: route
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.123236.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yesterday on NPR, I heard House speaker Dennis Hastert (from Illinois) say
that Amtrak could probably cut some of its money-losing routes -- pronounced
"routs".

Steve Boatti


From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET  Mon Jun 24 16:13:27 2002
From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:13:27 -0400
Subject: targets of ethnic jokes
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.121327.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had a friend in law school in the early 70s who handled these kinds of
jokes admirably. He would say, "How do you tell the bride at an ethnic
wedding?" The joke was still funny, perhaps because the listener filled in
his or her own "ethnic".

Bob


----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis R. Preston <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: targets of ethnic jokes


> >T-shirts are too ubiquitous. I much prefer
>
> Q. How do you tell the bride at a [insert group] wedding?
>
> A: She's the one in a sequined bowling shirt.
>
> dInIs


From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET  Mon Jun 24 16:32:05 2002
From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:32:05 -0400
Subject: targets of ethnic jokes
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.123205.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had a friend in law school in the early 70s who neatly avoided aiming his
jokes at any particular group by saying, "How do you tell the bride at an
ethnic wedding? The jokes were funny, I suspect, because the listener filled
in his or her own "ethnic".

Bob


> >The Italian jokes of my downstate NY youth were Polish jokes upstate;
when I
> >came to Ohio they became WV jokes and on my Fulbright to Germany they
> >transmuted into Fries jokes.  Friesland (Frisia) is the narrow coastal
strip
> >of the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark that borders the North Sea. In
> >Toulouse on a subsequent exchange I was told the French looked down on
the
> >Belgians but I heard no jokes at their expense.
> >
> >Ex:   Q: "How do you tell the bride at a [insert ethnic group here]
wedding?
> >A: She's the one with the clean T-shirt."
> >_________________________________
> >"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
> >--Albert Einstein
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> 740 Wells Hall A
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
> Office - (517) 353-0740
> Fax - (517) 432-2736
>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 17:08:40 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:08:40 EDT
Subject: Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah (1922)
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.130840.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/24/2002 10:54:16 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

<< >Reconstructionism is more interested in Judaism as a community than in the
>spiritual side of Judaism.  (Someone correct me here if I'm wrong).  Hence to
>them the Deity is more of a Process than a Being, or something like that.
>
>The spelling "Pr-cess" is therefore a satirical in-joke. >>

Oh, g-lly, I thought this was referring to the stereotypical "Jewish American
Pr-nc-ss," the One who REALLY reigns over heaven and earth.


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Jun 24 17:15:57 2002
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:15:57 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <c6.d7beabb.2a48a3a4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.131557.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't know what part of Illinois Hastert is from, but 'rout' was pretty
much standard in Minnesota when I grew up (and still is, I believe).  I've
picked up 'root' (for both route and plant root) as a "learned"
pronunciation as I've moved south and east (St. Louis to Bloomington to
Athens)--partly register, partly a misplaced sense of "class," I suspect.

At 12:32 PM 6/24/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Yesterday on NPR, I heard House speaker Dennis Hastert (from Illinois) say
>that Amtrak could probably cut some of its money-losing routes -- pronounced
>"routs".
>
>Steve Boatti


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Jun 24 18:22:18 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:22:18 -0500
Subject: Fronter and Backer
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.132218.0500.>

Actually, 'how front/back was that /a/?' sounds pretty ok to me.

Laurence Horn wrote:

> In principle, "front" and "back" SHOULD be gradable for vowels, but
> as you say they don't seem to be--"How front/back was that /a/?"
> sounds as weird as the analytic and synthetic comparatives above.  I
> share Rudy's judgments and usage patterns, I think.
>
> larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 18:39:23 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:39:23 EDT
Subject: Nosh, Nasher (1914); Hamantaschen (1916)
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.143923.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NOSH, NASHER (continued)

   From "The Meal Joseph Lost" by Abraham Burstein in THE YOUNG JUDAEAN, February 1914, pg. 14, col. 2:

   But what was hard to bear was the thought that even when he wanted to disobey his father and _nosh_ something before going from the house, something happened to prevent it.

(Continued on Page 15, col. 1--ed.)

   Thus did Joseph, the real "nasher" escape all blame.

--------------------------------------------------------
HAMANTASCHEN

   Search the online OED for "hamant*" and there is no hit.  Amazing.
   Merriam-Webster has 1927 for "hamantaschen."
   From THE YOUNG JUDAEAN, March 1916, pg. 195, col. 1:

   "There'll be lots of Hamantaschen and Kreppchen and plum-Tzimmes," Pincus informed him.

   From THE YOUNG JUDAEAN, March 1917, pg. 191, col. 1:

   Nowadays, children use "Haman-drehers," rattles, and whistles to express their approval of the fate meted out to Haman and his friends.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 18:57:01 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:57:01 EDT
Subject: "Watchable wildlife" & ethnic jokes
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.145701.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/24/2002 10:25:53 AM, george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes:

<< a few years ago I
bought a book called "Newfie Jokes", based on the stupidity of people
from Newfoundland.  Presumably this stereotype is widespread in the
rest of Canada?   >>

Ruth King has done some work on the use of the term NEWFIE as a regional
slur. she claims that people are generally highly offended by the term.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 19:22:09 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:22:09 -0400
Subject: Dreidle (1920)
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.152209.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"I feel like a spinning top or a dreidel.  The spinning don't stop when you leave the cradle.  You can't slow down."
--Don McLean, "Dreidel"
(the album after "American Pie")

   OED has 1934 for "dreidel."  Merriam-Webster has 1926.  I had posted something a day or two ago that was very much like "dreidel."
   THE YOUNG JUDAEAN here in the NYPL's Jewish division has a few months missing in 1918 and 1919.  The publication became in 1912 or 1913.
   From THE YOUNG JUDAEAN, November-December 1920, pg. 86, col. 1:

   Little David was an expert _dreidle_ player and he felt sure that he could win his brothers' money from them. (...)
   Z-z-z-z ... round and round went the _dreidle_.
(...)(Col. 2--ed.)
   Whiz...round went the _dreidle_.  The _dreidle_ was evidently telling wonderful secrets in a mysterious language.  Oh, how that _dreidle_ hated to fall and give up its precious secret, but since the creation  of the world it is preordained that _driedlach_ must fall, and finally the _dreidle_ understood, that it was far more comfortable to lie on your back than to run on one leg.

(WHERE ARE MY 1920 "LATKES"???--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 19:34:42 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:34:42 -0400
Subject: Kevutzah (1920)
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.153442.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED has 1921 for "kvutza."  See prior posts on "kibbutz" and "moshav."
   From the same "dreidel" edition of THE YOUNG JUDAEAN, November-December 1920, pg. 80, col. 1:

   We drove on a little way to the co-operative colony of Merhaviah.  This colony was the first co-operative, or _Kevutzah_, in Palestine; it was settled in 1913.

(From "Miriam's Journal, by Jessie E.Sampler."  The date given for this journal is Nov. 23, 1919, or Rosh Hodesh Kislev, 5680...The NYPL's Jewish Division has these convenient computers that you don't have to sign up for..."Became" should be "began" in that last post--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 25 01:54:07 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 21:54:07 EDT
Subject: SONGS FROM THE GHETTO glossary, part one (1900)
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.215407.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SONGS FROM THE GHETTO
by Morris Rosenfeld
with prose translation, glossary, and introduction
by Leo Wiener, instructor in the Slavic Languages at Harvard University
New and Enlarged Edition
Boston:  Small, Maynard and Company
1900
1898, Copeland and Day
1899, Small, Maynard and Company

   I guess I have enough energy to type this out before I go to Alaska.  It's
the best glossary I've seen for Yiddish-English, up to 1900.  Maven, nu, oi,
kosher, klezmer--all here!  Food items--not here!  Sorry!
   OED has _zero_ citations from this book.  Not even one.
   The old German type face is very difficult to read.  The "f" and "s" and
"l" and "z" all can't be distinguished.  Expect tons of mistakes.  I
apologize in advance.


Pg. 147:
      _GLOSSARY_
ABBREVIATIONS
E.--English.
F.--French
G.--German
H.--Hebrew
Lat.--Latin.
P.--Polish
R.--Russian
Sl.--Slavic

Abstellen sich, stop.  G.
absunsen, dip.  G.
achuz, besides.  H.
afile, even.  H.
alls, continually.  G.
antlossen, run away.  G
antschlafen, fallen sleep.  G.
antschwiegen, grown silent.  G.
anweren, lose.  G.
Apreter, operator in sweatshop.  E.
aren, care; es art mich nit, I do not care.  G.
Arowes, osier twigs.  H.
arum, around.  G.
arumwaschen, wash (the body).  G.
arunter, down.  G.
Arure, wench.  H.
as, that.  G.
asa, such a.  G.
aso, so.  G.
assach, much.  H.
auschappen sich, be startled, awaken.  Sl.
ausgeirudent, dried up.  G.
ausprechen sich, be scattered.  G.
ausweben, evaporate.  G.
aweg, away, past.  G.
azund, now.  G.
azunder, now.  G.

Baensen, long for.  G.
Bal-cholem, genius of dreams.  H.
Bal-haguf, male person.  H.
Bal-ssie, ram's horn blower.  H.
Basmalte, princess.  H.
bechinom, in vain.  H.
behalten, hidden.  G.
belangen, belong.  G.
benschen, bless.  F.
Ben-mowes, child of death.  H.
Berieschaft, heroism.  H.
bescheidt, certain.  G.
beschonsen, presented with.  G.
bespreit, covered.  G.
Bessalmen, cemetery.  H.
Bessolem, cemetery.  H.
beweisen sich, appear.  G.
(Pg. 148--ed.)
bidne, poor.  P.
bistre, quick.  R.
Blas, breath.  G.
blondzen, wander about.  P.
Boeser, anger.  G.
Bore, Creator.  H.
Boz, boss.  E.
botel, empty.  H.
Breg, shore.  Sl.
breitlich, comfortably.  G.
Bruim, creatures.  H.
Bsomim, spices.  H.
Busche, shame.  H.

Chadoschim, months.  H.
Chajoles, armies.  H.
Chalomes, dreams.  H.
chaufenen. flatter.  H.
Chanute, the feast of Hanuccah.  H.
chappen, seize.  Sl.
chappen sich, rush at.  Sl.
Chapper, kidnapper.  Sl.
Chasen, cantor in synagogue.  H.
Chawer, comrade.  H.
Chaweerim, comrades.
Cheeder, elementary school.  H.
Cheelef, share.  H.
Cheen, grace.  H.
cheenewdig, gracious.  H.
Cheesches, zest.  H.
Chet, sin.  H.
Chide, riddle.  H.
Chidesch, marvel.  H.
Chises, life.  H.
Chisrones, faults.  H.
chlipen, sob.  R.
Cholem, dream.  H.
cholemdig, dreamy.  H.
chorew, destroyed.  H.
Chozen, bridegroom.  H.
Chozen-sale, bridegroom and bride.  H.
chotsch, although, at least.  Sl.
Chraperei, snoring.  R.
Chsodim, mercies.  H.
Churbe, ruin.  H.
chuz, besides.  H.
Chuzpe, insolence.  H.
Chwales, billows.  Sl.
Corthaus, courthouse.  E.

Dacht sich, it seems.  G.
daled ames, four cubits.  H.  No one may approach an excommunicated person
within four cubits.
darfen, be obliged to.  G.
darr, withered.  G.
dasiger, der, that very.  G.
dawse, by all means.  H.
der--G. er.
derfar, for it.  G.
derhargenen, kill.  H.
derinnen, in it.  G.
dersonnen, recognize.  G.
derlangen a Remm, get hold of.  G.
derschlagen, strike dead.  G.
dervun machen, pay no attention.  G.
Dienstmald, handmaid.  G
Din, custom, law.  H.
dingen, haggle, urge.  G.
Dire, residence.  H.
Dorem, SOuth.  H.
Dores, generations.  H.
Drescher, flail.  G.
Drimmel, light sleep.  R.
drobne, tiny.  R.
Djodj, judge.  E.
(Pg. 149--ed.)

Ebig, eternal.  G.
Ed, end.  G.
Eedes, witnesses.  H.
Eeze, advice.  H.
esscher, perhaps.  H.
einhoren sich, listen attentively.  G.
einslappen sich, soak in.  P.
eintrinten sich, drench.  G.
eintulen, enwrap.  R.
Elul, sixth month in the Jewish calendar.  H.
Emes, truth.  H.
emesdig, real.  H.
emesser, true.  H.
Entser, answer.  G.
entsern, answer.  G.
entpleden, reveal.  G.
eppes, somewhat, somehow.  G.
Erech, approximation.  H.
Erew-schabes, Friday evening.  H.
ergez, somewhere.  G.
Esreg, lime.  H.

Fadem, thread.  G.
Faflol, flute.
fanandersingen sich, burst out singing.  G.
far, for.  G.
fleizen sich, endeavor.  G.
fleizen, flow abundantly.  G.
Forchtigseit, awe.  G.
Forman, foreman.  E.
fort, indeed, I pray.  G.
Frez, gluttony.  G.
froehlichdig, merrily.  G.
funtlen, flicker.  G.

Ganeeden, paradise.  H.
ganezen, yawn.  G.
ganwenen, steal.  H.
Gaslen, murderer.  H.
Gbolim, magnates.  H.
gefinnen, find.  G.
Geherei, marching.  G.
Gelagerl, couch.  G.
geniet, skilful.  G.
Geschant, present.  G.
geschmad, sweet.  G.
gesegnen sich, bid farewell.  G.
Gesind, family.  G.
gewaldewen, shout.  G.
gich, quickly.  G.
Gingold, pure gold.  G.
gleich, as if.  G.
Goles, exile.  H.
Goz, downpouring.  G.
Gramen, verses.  Greek (?).
Graul, horror.  G.
greit, prepared.  G.
g'ring, light.  G.
gro, gray.  G.
Gsar, decree of fate.  H.
G'segnenlied, song of parting.  G.
Gsisse, death.  H.
Gus, body.  H.
Gust, taste.  P.
G'walt, terror.  G.
g'waldig, terribly.  G.
Gwure. strength.  H.

Habewen, seek eagerly.  P.
halbe Racht, midnight.  G.
Haleweschte, brand.  R.
Har-haseesim, Olive-Mount.  H.
Harugim, killed bodies.  H.
Haschmonoim, Asmoneans.  H.
hester, abandoned.  H.
heunt, to-day.  G.
Horb, back.  P.
Hoschaine, willow branch.  H.
hulen, roam wildly.  P.
huzen, buzz.  Sl.
(Pg. 150--ed.)

I--t, both--and.  R.
Impet, incitement.  Lat.
Inden, billows.  G.
Inuim, affliction.  H.
izier, now.  G.

Jacht, chase.  G.
Jaile, Let there rise!  H.  Beginning of prayer in the eve of Atonement.
Jaw, ocean.  H.
jederer, every.  G.
jedwedes, everything.  G.
jedwider, every.  G.
Jerid, mart.  H.
Jessome, orphan.  H.
Jessurim, pain.  H.
Jiches, pride.  H.
Jom-hadin, judgement day.  H.
Jonfiper, atonement day.  H.
Jontew, holiday.
jungerheit, in youth.  G.

Kadesch, prayer for the dead (parents).  H.
Kale, bride.  H.
Kaltseit, coldness.  G.
kaltlich, cool.  G.
Kanarif, canary.  P.
karg, scanty.  G.
Kas, anger.  H.
Kaul, bullet.  G.
Kousche, religious fervor.  H.
Keewer, grave.  H.
keislen sich, roll.  G.
keensig, evidently.  G.
kesseeder, in succession.  H.
kechein, tickle.  G.
Kidesch-becher, cup of benediction.  H. & G.
Kidesch-lemone, benediction of the moon.  H.
kimat, almost.  H.
Kine, envy.  H.
Kine, dirge on the Day of the Destruction of the Temple.  H.
Kisches, magic.  H.
klappen, strike.  G.
klaren, think.  G.
kleden, suffice.  G.
kleiben sich, gather.  G.
Klesemer, instruments of music.  H.  (Klezmer!  There you are!
English?--ed.)
Klesmer, musician.  H.
Klesmorim, musicians.  H.
Klingerei, ringing.  G.
klomerst, for example.  H.
Klole, curse.  H.
knaden, roar.  G.
knapp, little.  G.
knetschen, wrinkle.  R.
Knoetel, wick.  G.
Kriegen, battle.  G.
Koch, excitement.  G.
Koches, strength.  H.
Kol, voice.  H.
Koles, voices.  H.
Korben, victim.  H.
Korew, relative.  H.
koscher, ritually pure.  H.
Koz, cap.  H.
Kosse, scythe.  R.
Kowed, honor.  H.
Krahe, crow.  G.
Kruwim, cherubim.  H.
Ksuwe, marriage contract.  H.
Kud, glance.  G.
kuden, look.  G.
kuschen, kiss.  G.
Kweet, flower.  Sl.
Kworim, graves.  H.
Kwure, grave.  H.
(Pg. 151--ed.)

Laremen, be in uproar.  G.
laschtschen, stroke gently.  R.
lasurn, azure.  R.
lausig, running.  G.
leben, near.  G.
lejenen, read.  F.
lefowed, in honor of.  H.
Le-schonohabo, tp the coming year.  H.
Lewaje, funeral.  H.
Lewone, moon.  H.
Lewonen, Lebanon.  H.
Lingere, mantle.  (?)
Loeb, lion.  G.
Lette, boat.  R.
Lulew, palm branch.  R.

Machascheese, witch.  H.
Machne, army.  H.
Machser, prayer-book.  H.
Mageese, shrew.  H.
Mairew, west.  H.
Maize-B'reeschis, Genesis.  H.
Maisselach, little stories.  H.
Malach, angel.  H.
Mamser, bastard.  H.
March, marrow.  G.
Mazel, star, luck.  H.
Mazoles, stars, destinies.  H.
mattern, torment.  G.
Mazeewe, tombstone.  H.
Mechaje, delight.  H.
mechajedig, delightfully.  H.
Mechile, forgiveness.  H.
Medine, realm.  H.
Messim, dead bodies.  H.
Meewin, connoisseur.  H.
mehrer, more.  G.
Mehume, consternation.  H.
Mein, opinion.  G.
Meiner, miner.  E.
mesadesch sein, consecrate.  H.
Menschenschachter, butcher of men.   G. & H.
Meride, sedition.  H.
merschune, wonderfully.  H.
Mez, corpse.  H.
mesten, measure.  G.
Midder, wilderness.  H.
Milchome, war.  H.
Minche, evening prayer.  H.
Mischvet, judgment.  H.
Misrach, East.  H.
mistome, no doubt.  H.
miswade sein sich, confess.  H.
Mite-trager, pall-bearer.  H. & G.
M'nore, chandelier.  H.
Moach, brain.  H.
Moch, moss.  R.
Mozen, whine.  (No language given--ed.)
More, fear, terror.  H.
moredig, terribly.  H.
Morie, Mount Moriah.  H.
Mrut, growl.  P.
Muhlchel, little mill.  G.
Mum, blemish.  H.
muntern, vivify.  G.
murmlen, mumble.  G.
muzne, turbid.  R.

Nachanand, in succession.  G.
nahnt, near.  G.
nahnter, nearer.  G.
Nawenand, wanderer.  H.
Nechome, consolation.  H.
Nesesch, creature.  H.
Nesome, revenge.  H.
Nemm, see berlangen.
Neschome, soul.  H.
Nessle, wandering.  H.
Nigen, melody.  H.
Nile, last prayer of Atonement day.  H.
(Pg. 152--ed.)
nischtosche, never mind.  G. & H.?
Nizochen, glory.  H.
Nore, hole.  R.
nu, well!  R.
nuzen, egg on.  R.

O (das), this very thing.  Sl.
Ofelach, birdies.  H.
oi, woe!  R.
Olem, people.  H.
on (dort), over yonder.  Sl.
Orel-tome, uncircumcised.  H.
Oren, coffin.  H.
Orenlodesch, holy ark.  H.
oi--oi, now--now.  R.
oi wu nit wu, now and then.
Ozres, fortunes.  H.

Paschen, herd.  R.
Pastuch, shepherd.  R.
Pastuschle, shepherdess.  R.
pattern, undo.  H.
Pesser, sleeper.  (No language given--ed.)
Pennile, little penny.  E.
pildern, cause an uproar.  G.
pzesten, fondle.  P.
pluzling, suddenly.  G.
Pogrom, riot.  R.
Poles, skirts.  R.
Ponim, face.  H.
Praze, work.  P.
prazewen, toil.  P.
pruzen, try.  G.
Psal, decision, sentence.  H.

Quellen, feel pleased.  G.

Razes, proofs.  H.
raf, continually.  H.
ranglen, wrestle.  G.
Rebe, teacher.  H.
Rebel, rabbi.  H.
Resue, convalescence; zu--, God bless you!  H.
Reschoim, evildoers.  H.
roien sich, swarm.  R.
Rosche, evil man.
Ruches, ghosts.  H.
Ruthlach, twigs.  H.


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Tue Jun 25 02:04:09 2002
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:04:09 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.220409.0400.>

Thanks, Larry, for the learned comments. I know you are an expert in
this field.

About the website, I was in a bit of a hurry to have it uploaded to the
Internet. In a few days I hope to have a better version up and running,
with the phonetics (lost in the conversion from WordPerfect to Word)
corrected and the piece de resistance (Vulva v. vagina) in full form
instead of a passing reference in the "Un-trademark" affidavit.

Where could I take a look at your Sophia Linguistica article? It sounds
fascinating.

Sorry again for the hasty presentation.

Best regards.

TOM.

Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> At 12:55 PM -0400 6/21/02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
> >On Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 12:49:41PM -0400, Steve Kl. wrote:
> >>  On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
> >>
> >>  > "American and British dictionaries have no clear notion of the female
> >>  > genitals." Visit: www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index/htm. (Hint: click
> >>  > "Trademark Affidavits").
> >>
> >>  I couldn't access this page.
> >>
> >>  Is the URL right?
> >
> >No, it should end in "index.htm"
> >                            ^
> >
> Very nice treatments.  I've actually written papers on both lexical
> clones (Tom's page 3) and un-nouns (his page 4), and heartily endorse
> the gist of his presentations here, although I've argued that each of
> the constructions is somewhat more complex that what Tom is able to
> provide in his affidavits (I'd better, since I've devoted a whole lot
> more ink/electrons to these constructions in my format than Tom could
> do in his).  In particular, I've divided (in "Un-Covering the
> Un-Word", published in the Japanese journal Sophia Linguistica 49
> (2002): 1-64) the class of un-nouns into two groups, the A (for
> "Almost")-class un-noun, in which an unX is almost (but not quite) a
> member of the category X, as in "un-cola" or "un-petroleum lip jelly"
> (my cite is not quite the same as Tom's but close--
>
> "Un-Petroleum(TM) Lip Jelly(TM)
> Un-Chap® your lips"
> (Label on product manufactured by Autumn Harp, Bristol, Vermont)
>
> --and I wonder whether this is indeed the company to which Tom refers
> in his affidavit), vs. the B (for "Barely")-class un-noun, in which
> an unY is indeed a member of the category Y, but not a prototype
> member (in Rosch's sense), i.e. not a Y Y.  There are some nice
> examples that oppose a B-class un-noun with a lexical clone, as in:
>
> Undesign:  Moving Away from Aggressive Décor
> (NYT headline, 2 June 1988, C6)
> "Nothing is 'design designed'.  Nothing has a signature."
> -New York architect Diana Agrest
>
> or, for that matter, an anti-clone like the "un-diet diet".
>
> --larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 25 02:01:11 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:01:11 EDT
Subject: SONGS FROM THE GHETTO glossary, part two (1900)
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.220111.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SONGS FROM THE GHETTO
by Morris Rosenfeld
with prose translation, glossary, and introduction
by Leo Wiener, instructor in the Slavic Languages at Harvard University
New and Enlarged Edition
Boston:  Small, Maynard and Company
1900
1898, Copeland and Day
1899, Small, Maynard and Company

    The old German type face is very difficult to read.  The "f" and "s" and
"l" and "z" all can't be distinguished.  Expect tons of mistakes.  I
apologize in advance.


Quellen, feel pleased.  G.

Razes, proofs.  H.
raf, continually.  H.
ranglen, wrestle.  G.
Rebe, teacher.  H.
Rebel, rabbi.  H.
Resue, convalescence; zu--, God bless you!  H.
Reschoim, evildoers.  H.
roien sich, swarm.  R.
Rosche, evil man.
Ruches, ghosts.  H.
Ruthlach, twigs.  H.

Saeger, clock.  G.
Samd, sand.  G.
Scha, hush!  R.
Schabes, sabbath.  H.
Schadchen, go-between.  H.
schazich, proper.  H.
Schames, beadle.  H.
Schap, shop.  E.
Scheene, neighbor.  H.
Schine, Godhead.  H.
Scheedim, devils.  H.
scheptschen, whisper.  R.
Schizes, delay.  H.
Schilter, curser.  G.
Schir, limit.  H.
Schire, hymns.  H.
Schforim, lies.  H.
Schmed, fragrance.  G.
schmeden, smell.  G.
Schmeichel, smile.  G.
schmeichlen, smile.  G.
schminslen, twinkle.  G.
Scho, hour.  H.
schodlen, shake.  G.
Schofer, ram's-horn.  H.
Scholem, peace.  H.
Schorch, stir.  R.
S-chore, wares.  H.
Schoren, Sharon.  H.
Schote, fool.  H.
Schredeniz, terror.  G.
Schul, synagogue.  G.
schum, sein--, not at all.  H.
(Pg. 153--ed.)
Schwiz-schap, sweat-shop.  G. & E.
Schworim, third blast of the ram's horn.
see, they.  G.
seinen, are.  G.
sezer, very.  G.
Sent, cent.  E.
Sezen, cut.  G.
Ssire, forty-nine days after second day of Passover, during which no
festivities may take place.  H.
Silsulim, disgrace.  H.
Singerlach, choristers.  G.
Sliches, prayer preceding the morning prayer on the Sunday preceding the New
Year.  H.
Slup, post.  P.
Socher, merchants.  H.
Socherte, saleswoman.  H.
Sozetore, Scroll of the Law.  H.
Spielchel, toy.  G.
Srores, oppressor.  H.
Szatone, danger.  H.
szappen, gasp.  P.
Szeechel, reason.  H.
Szue, hatred.  H.
Szenz, branch.  P.
Szimche, joy.  H.
Szod, secrets.  H.
Szoz, end.  H.
Szolowei, nightingale.  H.
Szonim, enemies.  H.
Szute, arbor.  H.
Stabun, onionstalk.  Sl.
stam, any way.  H.
standig, all the time.  G.
stellen sich, take one's part.  G.
Steschte, bypath.  R.
Strit, street.  E.
Strunes, strings.  R.
stuppen sich, press forward.  G.
Stuss, nonsense.  H.
sudig, boiling.  G.
Susz, sob.  G.
suszen, sob.  G.
suppen, sip.
Swul, abode.  H.

Tachrichim, shrouds.  H.
Taine, discussion.  H.
tainen, discourse.  H.
tafe, indeed.  R.
Tam, taste.  H.
Tate, father.  P.
taug, is good for.  G
Tchine, prayer.  H.
teelef, exactly.  H.
Teich, river.  G.
Tfilas-haderech, prayer of passage.  H.
Tfile, prayer.  H.
Tfile leoni, road Psalm, used as a prayer in sickness.  H.
Tfisse, prison.  H.
Thom, abyss.  H.
Tieseniz, depth.  G.
Tkije, first blast of the ram's horn.  H.
Tnue, delay.  H.
Toli, order.  R.
tome, impure.  H.
tor, is allowed.  G.
Tore, Law.  H.
trachten, think.  G.
Trahr, tear.  G.
(Pg. 154--ed.)
trahren, weep.  G.
trellen, trill.  G.
treschtschen, crack.  R.
Tremoge, alarm.  R.\True, second blast of the ram's horn.  H.
Truy, corpse.  R.
tuden, submerge.  G.
tunsel, dark.  G.
Tupperei, tramping.  G.
Twile, (ritual) bath.  H.

Ubervrehen sich, turn around.  G.
uf--auf.
Ume, nation.  H.
Umet, melancholy.  G.
umetig, sad.  G.
Umruh, unrest, pendulum.  G.
umfust, in vain.  G.
untertunsen, dive under.  G.

Var, before.  G.
varbetten, invite.  G.
varblissen, flash.  G.
varchalescht, fainting.  H.
varschoschecht, wretched.  H.
varfallen, perish.  G.
varflichen, fly away.  G.
vargliwert, stark.  (No language given--ed.)
varsossemt, orphaned.  H.
varsahlt, chilled.  G.
varslemmt, oppressed.  G.
varsocht, absorbed.  G.
varloschen, extinguish.  G.
varmachen, shut.  G.
varmattert, exhausted.  G.
varmogen, possess.  G.
varmoren, starve.  R.
varmosten sich, threatened.  G.
varnummen, busy.  G.
varnugen, use up.  G.
varschleppen, drag away.  G.
varschnitten, cut off.  G.
varscholten, cursed.  G.
varschreiben, secure.  G.
varschwacht, weakened.  G.
warsvizt, clearly outlined.  G.
varthan, occupied.  G.
vartracht, lost in thoughts.  G.
varumert, saddened.  G.
varwenden, use up.  G.
varwiegen, rock to sleep.  G.
varwzanen, wither.  R.
varwogelt, neglected.  G.
varwollen sich, have a desire.  G.

Weilinte, little while.  G.
weizen, know.  G.
wemen, to whom.  G.
wer'en, become, will.  G.
Widul, confession.  H.
Willt sich mir, I want.  G.
winzig, little.  G.
Wissel, whistle.  E.
wozen, howl.  R.
wollten, would.  G.
Woltiag, well-doing.  G.
Workschap, workshop.  E.
Wuns, beckoning.  G.

Zadisim, just.  H.
Zar, anguish.  H.
ze--G. doch.  R.
zeitenweiss, at times.  G.
zitterdig, trembling.  G.
Zoffen, North.  H.
Zores, troubles.  H.
zu--G. zer.
zu, whether.  P.
zuchtig, clean.  G.
zuglaht, burning.  G.
(Pg. 155--ed.)
Zusersess, candy.  P
zuzlemmt, oppressed.  G.
zuslemmierheit, with oppressed heart.  G.
zuslingen sich, resound.  G.
zusnappen, twist.  G.
zunausruseu, call together.  G.
zunummen, taken apart.  G.
zure, face.  H.
zuspringen sich. burst.  G.
zutragen, scatter.  G.
zutreten, trod under foot.  G.
zuwehtagt, full of pain.  G.
zuworsen, scattered.  G.
Zwit, bloom.  R.


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Jun 25 02:33:48 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:33:48 -0400
Subject: "Watchable wildlife" & ethnic jokes
In-Reply-To: <16f.f8f4adb.2a48c57d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.223348.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 24 Jun 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

#Ruth King has done some work on the use of the term NEWFIE as a regional
#slur. she claims that people are generally highly offended by the term.

I first heard the word at an Ian and Sylvia concert. Ian was drinking
something he told us was "Newfie screech". = US "moonshine"?

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 25 02:48:36 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:48:36 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <3D17CF99.8767250@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.224836.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:04 PM -0400 6/24/02, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
>Thanks, Larry, for the learned comments. I know you are an expert in
>this field.
>
>About the website, I was in a bit of a hurry to have it uploaded to the
>Internet. In a few days I hope to have a better version up and running,
>with the phonetics (lost in the conversion from WordPerfect to Word)
>corrected and the piece de resistance (Vulva v. vagina) in full form
>instead of a passing reference in the "Un-trademark" affidavit.
>
>Where could I take a look at your Sophia Linguistica article? It sounds
>fascinating.
>
>Sorry again for the hasty presentation.
>
>Best regards.
>
>TOM.
>
Tom,

I'll be glad to send you an offprint.  What's your snail address?
(The version I presented at Stanford a month ago is a bit upgraded,
but the one in print isn't that different.)  I'd love to know more
about the vulva v. vagina case.  (Not, I assume, a lawsuit.)

Larry


From r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU  Tue Jun 25 03:13:48 2002
From: r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:13:48 +1000
Subject: router
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.131348.1000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Many thanks to many contributors for advice on "route" and "router",
which turned out far more varied and entertaining than I had expected.

By way of follow-up: I have been sent the following link with further
discussion:

http://www.rrz.uni-hamburg.de/RRZ/Personal/WCirsovius/FUN/PronounceRouter.html

Another angle and a possible precursor concerns army use in the
signals corps. A correspondent on my Aus language email list offers
the following:

As an Army signaller my experience of the word pre-dates modern computers.
In the days of torn tape relay messaging, there were alpha numeric codes
which were called routing (pron rowting) indicators. That was when it was
done handraulically.


Roly Sussex

--
**********************************************************

Roly Sussex
Professor of Applied Language Studies
Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics
School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies
The University of Queensland
Brisbane
Queensland 4072
AUSTRALIA

Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403
Phone:  +61 7 3365 6896
Fax:    +61 7 3365 2798
Email:  r.sussex at mailbox.uq.edu.au
Web:    http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html
School's website:
        http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/

Language Talkback ABC radio:
Web:    http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/

**********************************************************


From r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU  Tue Jun 25 04:00:40 2002
From: r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:00:40 +1000
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.140040.1000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have been struck - on NBC's "Today", CNN, NPR and other American
sources - with the increasing frequency of voiced intervocalic or
inter-voiced-segment fricatives, especially in proper names:

        Jerusalem       [-z-]
        Kashmir         [-zh-] (can't do voiced palatalo-alveolars in email)

although the unvoiced parallels are also heard.

Has there been any work describing this shift (as distinct from other
intervocalic voicings like flapping and words like "exit" as [-gz-],
which looks well established as favoured in US English: MW has it
first; OED only has [-ks-]). Is it lexically most found in foreign
proper names?

Roly Sussex

--
**********************************************************

Roly Sussex
Professor of Applied Language Studies
Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics
School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies
The University of Queensland
Brisbane
Queensland 4072
AUSTRALIA

Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403
Phone:  +61 7 3365 6896
Fax:    +61 7 3365 2798
Email:  r.sussex at mailbox.uq.edu.au
Web:    http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html
School's website:
        http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/

Language Talkback ABC radio:
Web:    http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/

**********************************************************


From dave at WILTON.NET  Tue Jun 25 05:51:25 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:51:25 -0700
Subject: router
In-Reply-To: <a05111b11b93d8edd9583@[172.22.14.37]>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.225125.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Another angle and a possible precursor concerns army use in the
> signals corps. A correspondent on my Aus language email list offers
> the following:
>
> As an Army signaller my experience of the word pre-dates
> modern computers.
> In the days of torn tape relay messaging, there were alpha
> numeric codes
> which were called routing (pron rowting) indicators. That was
> when it was
> done handraulically.

Back in my US Army days (late 80s) we had routing slips (also pron rowting),
yellow pieces of paper that were stapled to the covers of documents that
indicated which offices/persons should see the document and in which order.
Of course we could have just used a photocopier, but I guess some traditions
die hard. Saved a lot of trees though.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 25 06:05:50 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 02:05:50 EDT
Subject: Thomas Mount's flash language (1791)
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.020550.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I was going through the online Alaska libraries, checking for Alaska slang
books.  I came across the _Confessions of Thomas Mount_ (1791).  This
supposedly contains a list of flash words.  However, when I ran "T(homas)
Mount" through the NYPL and LOC catalogs and through the online OED, nothing
came up.  Has anyone seen this work and recorded any of the flash words?
What words are they?



Title:      The confession, &c. of Thomas Mount, [microform] : who was
executed at Little-Rest, in the state of Rhode-Island, on Friday the 27th of
May, 1791, for burglary.
Author:     <A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=au&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Mount%2C+Thomas%2C">Mount, Thomas, 1764-1791.</A>
Publisher:      [Newport, R.I.] : Printed and sold by Peter Edes, in
Newport., [1791?]
Subjects:   <A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Mount%2C+Thomas%2C">Mount, Thomas,</A> <A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Mount%2C+Thomas%2C+1764%2D1791%2E">1764-1791.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Flash+Company%2E">Flash Company.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Burglary">Burglary</A>--<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Burglary+Rhode+Island%2E">Rhode Island.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Crime%2E">Crime.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Criminals%2E">Criminals.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Executions+and+executioners">Executions and executioners</A>--<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Executions+and+executioners+Rhode+Island%2E">Rhode Island.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Organized+crime%2E">Organized crime.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Crime">Crime</A>--<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Crime+Slang%2E">Slang.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Criminals">Criminals</A>--<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Criminals+Slang%2E">Slang.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Slang%2E">Slang.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Songs%2E">Songs.</A>

Description:    21, [1] p. ; (4to)
Notes:      Includes an account of the Flash Company, a confederation of
thieves, together with a list of Flash words and phrases, the Oath, and
several Flash songs.
Editor's preface signed: William Smith. Newport, May 20, 1791.
Imprint from colophon.
Title vignette.
Signatures: [A]4 B4 C4(-C4) (C3 verso blank).
Evans 23773
Alden, J.E. Rhode Island, 1259
Microfiche. [New York : Readex Microprint, 1985] 11 x 15 cm. (Early American
imprints. First series ; no. 23773).

Other Name:     Smith, William,

Series Title:   <A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=ti&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Early+American+imprints%2E">Early American imprints. no. 23773.</A>


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Tue Jun 25 11:28:20 2002
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 07:28:20 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.072820.0400.>

Hi Larry,

>From my "card" in preparation:

Address:

83 Sunny Meadow Blvd.
Brampton, Ontario, Canada L6R 1Z3

Phone: 905-790-7076; fax: 905-790-9168

Thanks for the Sophia Linguistica article or the Stanford version,
whichever is easier to dig.

Vagina v. Vulva was tried by mail, distributed to about 20 scholars
(including Dr. Rheinhold Aman), and finally published in a popular
version by COPY EDITOR, Oct.-Nov. 1998, thanks to DSNA member Mary Beth
Protomastro. (AS wouldn't publish it even in a "dehumorized" version, as
Bob Wachal put it). There were strong reactions to the CE article from
some feminists, one calling the lexicographer a pornographer. (I checked
with an attorney in Maryland, but decided not to be bothered, since I
was in the company of OED's Edmund Weiner and Prof. Wachal of Iowa. Both
Weiner and Wachal raise the question of "the unfortunate dearth of humor
in academic publishing." I am waiting for permission to publish their
comments on the website. I will mail you a copy of the CE article - not
good enough for my website!

Thanks for the interest.

TOM.

Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> At 10:04 PM -0400 6/24/02, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
> >Thanks, Larry, for the learned comments. I know you are an expert in
> >this field.
> >
> >About the website, I was in a bit of a hurry to have it uploaded to the
> >Internet. In a few days I hope to have a better version up and running,
> >with the phonetics (lost in the conversion from WordPerfect to Word)
> >corrected and the piece de resistance (Vulva v. vagina) in full form
> >instead of a passing reference in the "Un-trademark" affidavit.
> >
> >Where could I take a look at your Sophia Linguistica article? It sounds
> >fascinating.
> >
> >Sorry again for the hasty presentation.
> >
> >Best regards.
> >
> >TOM.
> >
> Tom,
>
> I'll be glad to send you an offprint.  What's your snail address?
> (The version I presented at Stanford a month ago is a bit upgraded,
> but the one in print isn't that different.)  I'd love to know more
> about the vulva v. vagina case.  (Not, I assume, a lawsuit.)
>
> Larry


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Tue Jun 25 12:42:58 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:42:58 -0400
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
In-Reply-To: <a05111b15b93d991ffcfb@[172.22.14.37]>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.084258.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My observation is that in the USA the s in "San Jose" is essentially always
voiced, and the s in "El Paso" and names containing "mesa" is never voiced.
 This is probably not related to the placement of the stress, as your
examples indicate.

--Charles Wells

>I have been struck - on NBC's "Today", CNN, NPR and other American
>sources - with the increasing frequency of voiced intervocalic or
>inter-voiced-segment fricatives, especially in proper names:
>
>        Jerusalem       [-z-]
>        Kashmir         [-zh-] (can't do voiced palatalo-alveolars in email)
>
>although the unvoiced parallels are also heard.
>
>Has there been any work describing this shift (as distinct from other
>intervocalic voicings like flapping and words like "exit" as [-gz-],
>which looks well established as favoured in US English: MW has it
>first; OED only has [-ks-]). Is it lexically most found in foreign
>proper names?
>
>Roly Sussex
>
>--
>**********************************************************
>
>Roly Sussex
>Professor of Applied Language Studies
>Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics
>School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies
>The University of Queensland
>Brisbane
>Queensland 4072
>AUSTRALIA
>
>Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403
>Phone:  +61 7 3365 6896
>Fax:    +61 7 3365 2798
>Email:  r.sussex at mailbox.uq.edu.au
>Web:    http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html
>School's website:
>        http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/
>
>Language Talkback ABC radio:
>Web:    http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/
>
>**********************************************************



Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 25 13:01:01 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 09:01:01 -0400
Subject: Thomas Mount's flash language (1791)
In-Reply-To: <11d.130e5d83.2a49623e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.090101.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 02:05:50AM -0400, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    I was going through the online Alaska libraries, checking for Alaska slang
> books.  I came across the _Confessions of Thomas Mount_ (1791).  This
> supposedly contains a list of flash words.  However, when I ran "T(homas)
> Mount" through the NYPL and LOC catalogs and through the online OED, nothing
> came up.  Has anyone seen this work and recorded any of the flash words?
> What words are they?

HDAS makes very heavy use of this source, cites as "Confess. T. Mount". It
has our first American examples for a wide variety of cant terms.

Jesse Sheidlower


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 25 13:33:27 2002
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 09:33:27 EDT
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.093327.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think I commented a few years ago that Joseph is going the other way-- it
was always /z/ in the old days, but many young people here in NJ and I've
heard it from Californians too, now have /s/.   I think Jerusalem may have
been /z/ too according to some older dictionaries (100 years ago).
        I also reported in an AS article a while back on a very complicated
regional pattern for 'houses'--the noun plural, which can show either /s/ or
/z/ for both final and medial fricative all over the US.

Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 25 16:08:27 2002
From: stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM (s. . .)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 09:08:27 -0700
Subject: In/To...
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.090827.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hello. Could you please explain to me the three
utterances below from a notional and pragmatic
viewpoint?

"She must have been in Africa." [as opposed to "...to
Africa."]

"He's been in Alaska twice." [as opposed to "...to
Alaska..."]

"She's been in England for a long time."

What exactly is the speaker's location in each of
them? Could he/she possibly be in more places than
one? Where are the three visitors 'now'?

More constructions of that type, which would further
help me clarify the role and meaning of "in" versus
"to," will be much appreciated.

Thanks.

P. Lombardo

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Jun 25 16:26:31 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:26:31 -0400
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
In-Reply-To: <110.142b1e36.2a49cb27@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.122631.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Dale Coye wrote:

#I think I commented a few years ago that Joseph is going the other way-- it
#was always /z/ in the old days, but many young people here in NJ and I've
#heard it from Californians too, now have /s/.   I think Jerusalem may have
#been /z/ too according to some older dictionaries (100 years ago).

I've heard Jeru/z/alem for a long time; I guess I'm used to it as an
alternate. Like Roly, I've noticed Ka/Z/mir appearing more often in the
news reports in recent... hm, months but the past several years as well,
ISTM.

However, I noticed /Z/ many decades ago, if memory serves, in the
eponymous "cashmere" -- maybe even in my grandmother's speech (b. NYC
approx. 1889) -- and remarked on it to myself.

#        I also reported in an AS article a while back on a very complicated
#regional pattern for 'houses'--the noun plural, which can show either /s/ or
#/z/ for both final and medial fricative all over the US.

How does the distribution of the final /s/ in this plural compare with
general final plural /s/?

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 25 16:36:51 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:36:51 -0400
Subject: In/To...
In-Reply-To: <20020625160827.16395.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.123651.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Too easy (until someone else answers); The 'in' is the 'in' of
location and the 'to' is the 'to' of experience (not the 'to' of
direction, as in "I'm driving to Alaska tomorrow"). (Let's not mess
with dialects which have another "to" - 'I was to John's house
yesterday.')

Therefore,

"She must have been in Africa (located there) when the bomb went off."
but *"She must have been to Africa when the bomb went off."

"He's been in Alaska twice (located there each time) when they've had
an earthquake."
but *"He's been to Alaska twice when they've had an earthquake."

"She's been in England for a long time (located there) but just escaped"
but *She's been to England for a long time but just escaped."

There are forced experiential readings of the *-ed sentences (and
that reading of the second is really not so forced), but I think
these contrasts show the distinctions you are after (and help you
resolve the other serious metaphysical problems you were apparently
having).

dInIs

>Hello. Could you please explain to me the three
>utterances below from a notional and pragmatic
>viewpoint?
>
>"She must have been in Africa." [as opposed to "...to
>Africa."]
>
>"He's been in Alaska twice." [as opposed to "...to
>Alaska..."]
>
>"She's been in England for a long time."
>
>What exactly is the speaker's location in each of
>them? Could he/she possibly be in more places than
>one? Where are the three visitors 'now'?
>
>More constructions of that type, which would further
>help me clarify the role and meaning of "in" versus
>"to," will be much appreciated.
>
>Thanks.
>
>P. Lombardo
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 25 16:42:35 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:42:35 -0400
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206251221010.3021971-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.124235.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And how can any of this account for the fact that W has got no final
voiced continuants - plurals (e.g., reaches), possessives (e.g., Bin
Laden's), 3rd person indicatives (e.g., begs) or plain old
monomorphemes (e.g., badge). Just listen.

dInIs



>On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Dale Coye wrote:
>
>#I think I commented a few years ago that Joseph is going the other way-- it
>#was always /z/ in the old days, but many young people here in NJ and I've
>#heard it from Californians too, now have /s/.   I think Jerusalem may have
>#been /z/ too according to some older dictionaries (100 years ago).
>
>I've heard Jeru/z/alem for a long time; I guess I'm used to it as an
>alternate. Like Roly, I've noticed Ka/Z/mir appearing more often in the
>news reports in recent... hm, months but the past several years as well,
>ISTM.
>
>However, I noticed /Z/ many decades ago, if memory serves, in the
>eponymous "cashmere" -- maybe even in my grandmother's speech (b. NYC
>approx. 1889) -- and remarked on it to myself.
>
>#        I also reported in an AS article a while back on a very complicated
>#regional pattern for 'houses'--the noun plural, which can show either /s/ or
>#/z/ for both final and medial fricative all over the US.
>
>How does the distribution of the final /s/ in this plural compare with
>general final plural /s/?
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel
>    Linguist at Large

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 25 17:15:01 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:15:01 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <3D1853D4.D1B34471@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.131501.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:28 AM -0400 6/25/02, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
>Hi Larry,
>
>>>From my "card" in preparation:
>
>Address:
>
>83 Sunny Meadow Blvd.
>Brampton, Ontario, Canada L6R 1Z3
>
>Phone: 905-790-7076; fax: 905-790-9168
>
>Thanks for the Sophia Linguistica article or the Stanford version,
>whichever is easier to dig.

Sure.  The Stanford one is just transparencies, so the Japanese one
it will have to be.

>
>Vagina v. Vulva was tried by mail, distributed to about 20 scholars
>(including Dr. Rheinhold Aman), and finally published in a popular
>version by COPY EDITOR, Oct.-Nov. 1998, thanks to DSNA member Mary Beth
>Protomastro. (AS wouldn't publish it even in a "dehumorized" version, as
>Bob Wachal put it). There were strong reactions to the CE article from
>some feminists, one calling the lexicographer a pornographer. (I checked
>with an attorney in Maryland, but decided not to be bothered, since I
>was in the company of OED's Edmund Weiner and Prof. Wachal of Iowa. Both
>Weiner and Wachal raise the question of "the unfortunate dearth of humor
>in academic publishing." I am waiting for permission to publish their
>comments on the website. I will mail you a copy of the CE article - not
>good enough for my website!
>
>Thanks for the interest.
>
>TOM.

That would be great.  In exchange, I'll enclose a copy of a somewhat
risque paper of my own from a few years back.  I'll have to mail them
to you on Monday, though; I'm about to go in for a five day
chemotherapy session.

larry


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 25 17:26:03 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:26:03 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <p04320401b93e50bd26fb@[130.132.245.190]>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.132603.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I hope larry and TOM will stop using the ADS system for pornoraphic exchanges!


dInIs

>At 7:28 AM -0400 6/25/02, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
>>Hi Larry,
>>
>>>>From my "card" in preparation:
>>
>>Address:
>>
>>83 Sunny Meadow Blvd.
>>Brampton, Ontario, Canada L6R 1Z3
>>
>>Phone: 905-790-7076; fax: 905-790-9168
>>
>>Thanks for the Sophia Linguistica article or the Stanford version,
>>whichever is easier to dig.
>
>Sure.  The Stanford one is just transparencies, so the Japanese one
>it will have to be.
>
>>
>>Vagina v. Vulva was tried by mail, distributed to about 20 scholars
>>(including Dr. Rheinhold Aman), and finally published in a popular
>>version by COPY EDITOR, Oct.-Nov. 1998, thanks to DSNA member Mary Beth
>>Protomastro. (AS wouldn't publish it even in a "dehumorized" version, as
>>Bob Wachal put it). There were strong reactions to the CE article from
>>some feminists, one calling the lexicographer a pornographer. (I checked
>>with an attorney in Maryland, but decided not to be bothered, since I
>>was in the company of OED's Edmund Weiner and Prof. Wachal of Iowa. Both
>>Weiner and Wachal raise the question of "the unfortunate dearth of humor
>>in academic publishing." I am waiting for permission to publish their
>>comments on the website. I will mail you a copy of the CE article - not
>>good enough for my website!
>>
>>Thanks for the interest.
>>
>>TOM.
>
>That would be great.  In exchange, I'll enclose a copy of a somewhat
>risque paper of my own from a few years back.  I'll have to mail them
>to you on Monday, though; I'm about to go in for a five day
>chemotherapy session.
>
>larry

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 25 17:43:42 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:43:42 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <a05010408b93e580303ec@[35.10.92.197]>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.134342.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:26 PM -0400 6/25/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>I hope larry and TOM will stop using the ADS system for pornoraphic exchanges!
>
>dInIs
>
oopsie.  our bad.  at least they weren't pornographic.

larry


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 25 17:49:25 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:49:25 EDT
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.134925.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/25/02 8:43:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
charles at FREUDE.COM writes:

> My observation is that in the USA the [second] s in "San Jose" is
essentially always
>  voiced, and the s in "El Paso" and names containing "mesa" is never voiced.
>   This is probably not related to the placement of the stress, as your
>  examples indicate.

I have a suggestion specific to "Jose/".  In English there are very few
common words that have /os/ (that's supposed to be a long "o" as in "home").
The only ones that come to mind are "gross", "close" (adjective only, the
verb is /kloz/), and "dosido".  "Explosive" (and the phonetician's variant
"plosive") can have either /s/ or /z/.  On the other hand, for /oz/ there is
"bows", "blows", "cozy", "closing", "crows", and so on alphabetically.  Do
you find it surpri/z/ing that "Jose" gets a /z/?

If I heard someone say "Jose" as /ho 'sei/ I would think that person is
either a native Spanish speaker or is making an effort to pronounce Spanish
correctly, and habitually refers to the character in Carmen as /don ho 'sei/
rather than as /dahn ho 'zei/.

Note the mondegreen "Jose can you see" for the opening line of the "Star
Spangled Banner" which falls flat if pronounced /ho sei/, even though the
correct version is /o sei/.

If you want to do a survey, also ask people how they pronounce the Biblical
name "Hosea".  I once had a classmate (now an MD in Boston) named Steve
Hosea, and he pronounced his name /ho 'zei/.  (Steve, easily the best punster
in the class, came in one day with a bandage near one eye, and was
immediately addressed with "Hosea can you see?").

      - Jim Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 25 17:54:06 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:54:06 EDT
Subject: Off Off Topic
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.135406.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/25/02 1:43:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

> oopsie.  our bad.  at least they weren't pornographic.

which is fine, because I don't have a pornograph.

Seriously, this is the second time in two days that you have used the
expression "our bad" or "my bad".  I don't recall ever having heard this
expression before.

      - Jim Landau


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Tue Jun 25 17:57:06 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:57:06 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <76.1e42ae0d.2a4a083e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.135706.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

>Seriously, this is the second time in two days that you have used the
>expression "our bad" or "my bad".  I don't recall ever having heard this
>expression before.

Where have you been HIDING? Or who have you been hanging with? I have been
hearing it and occasionally using it for at least 10-12 years, I think.

Bethany


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Jun 25 17:57:06 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 18:57:06 +0100
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <76.1e42ae0d.2a4a083e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.185706.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Tuesday, June 25, 2002 1:54 pm +0000 "James A. Landau"
<JJJRLandau at AOL.COM> wrote:

> Seriously, this is the second time in two days that you have used the
> expression "our bad" or "my bad".  I don't recall ever having heard this
> expression before.

Which means that you don't know my brother John.  He's used it at least
since he was in college (in Ohio, in the late 80s).

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 25 18:05:06 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:05:06 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <76.1e42ae0d.2a4a083e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.140506.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

> Seriously, this is the second time in two days that you have used the
> expression "our bad" or "my bad".  I don't recall ever having heard this
> expression before.

American Heritage Dictionary, 4th ed (deluxe and college) enter "my bad"
as an idiom at 'bad'. I suspect at least some other American dictionaries
do too.

-- Steve


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 25 18:05:25 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:05:25 -0400
Subject: No Show Socks
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.140525.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NO SHOW SOCKS

   The big story in today's (Tuesday's) WALL STREET JOURNAL, page one, center column, is "no show socks."  They're "low-rider" socks that can't be seen to everybody, but hey, you're still wearing socks.
   I'd call 'em "stealth socks"...Not to be confused with when Bill and Hillary's cat Socks doesn't show up.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
MISC.

   Greetings from the Seattle airport.
   I thought that the Thomas Mount work was used, but I just didn't find it in an online OED search.
   The latest YANKEES MAGAZINE on the newsstand (March 2002 is the date they try to hide) has a history of the Yankees' 100 yerars, starting with the 1900s.  My work--which they didn't acknowledge when I submitted it to them--is used without payment and without credit.
   David Shulman also saw that article about Don Foster, and I told him that yes, Foster was the guy I submitted his Washington Irving finding to and who didn't respond.  Today's NEW YORK TIMES corrects:  "He is Richard Kennedy, not 'Mr. Richards.'"  Four days for this?


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 25 18:10:24 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:10:24 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0206251355340.4968-100000@larry.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.141024.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:57 PM -0400 6/25/02, Bethany K. Dumas wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:
>
>>Seriously, this is the second time in two days that you have used the
>>expression "our bad" or "my bad".  I don't recall ever having heard this
>>expression before.
>
>Where have you been HIDING? Or who have you been hanging with? I have been
>hearing it and occasionally using it for at least 10-12 years, I think.
>
We had a major thread on this way back when.  (I think I may have
kicked it off.)  I then got written up as an "expert" informant in a
Bob Greene column on the topic, so I'm particularly fond of the
expression.

larry

P.S.  To be exact, Oct.-Nov. 1997, if anyone wants to consult the archives

P.P.S.  And if anyone is wondering, after I inadvertently outed
myself in what I thought was a one-on-one message that went out to
the list, the reason I'm going in for chemotherapy is that I was just
(a little over a month ago) diagnosed with non-Hodgkins lymphoma, of
a particularly aggressive form (mantle cell).  So I'm in for six
months of intensive chemo, as a periodic in-patient, but my infirmary
room has a port for my laptop (as I myself do, for the IV), so I'll
be able to check in.  And I'm very much looking forward to bringing
along the Allen Walker Read volume as my bedside reading.


From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU  Tue Jun 25 18:24:37 2002
From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:24:37 -0500
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
In-Reply-To: <a05010406b93e4d25774d@[35.10.92.197]>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.132437.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

He just didn't pay attention in phonics class and has extended terminal
voicelessness to all words ending with sibilance.  "It's spelled with an -s
and people oughta say it with an -s !!"
DMLance

on 6/25/02 11:42 AM, Dennis R. Preston at preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU wrote:

> And how can any of this account for the fact that W has got no final
> voiced continuants - plurals (e.g., reaches), possessives (e.g., Bin
> Laden's), 3rd person indicatives (e.g., begs) or plain old
> monomorphemes (e.g., badge). Just listen.
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
>> On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Dale Coye wrote:
>>
>> #I think I commented a few years ago that Joseph is going the other way-- it
>> #was always /z/ in the old days, but many young people here in NJ and I've
>> #heard it from Californians too, now have /s/.   I think Jerusalem may have
>> #been /z/ too according to some older dictionaries (100 years ago).
>>
>> I've heard Jeru/z/alem for a long time; I guess I'm used to it as an
>> alternate. Like Roly, I've noticed Ka/Z/mir appearing more often in the
>> news reports in recent... hm, months but the past several years as well,
>> ISTM.
>>
>> However, I noticed /Z/ many decades ago, if memory serves, in the
>> eponymous "cashmere" -- maybe even in my grandmother's speech (b. NYC
>> approx. 1889) -- and remarked on it to myself.
>>
>> #        I also reported in an AS article a while back on a very complicated
>> #regional pattern for 'houses'--the noun plural, which can show either /s/ or
>> #/z/ for both final and medial fricative all over the US.
>>
>> How does the distribution of the final /s/ in this plural compare with
>> general final plural /s/?
>>
>> -- Mark A. Mandel
>> Linguist at Large
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
> preston at pilot.msu.edu
> Office: (517)353-0740
> Fax: (517)432-2736
>


From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU  Tue Jun 25 18:29:18 2002
From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:29:18 -0500
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
In-Reply-To: <15f.fbeb902.2a4a0725@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.132918.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 6/25/02 12:49 PM, James A. Landau at JJJRLandau at AOL.COM wrote:

> In a message dated 6/25/02 8:43:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> charles at FREUDE.COM writes:
>
>> My observation is that in the USA the [second] s in "San Jose" is
> essentially always
>> voiced, and the s in "El Paso" and names containing "mesa" is never voiced.
>> This is probably not related to the placement of the stress, as your
>> examples indicate.
>
> I have a suggestion specific to "Jose/".  In English there are very few
> common words that have /os/ (that's supposed to be a long "o" as in "home").
> The only ones that come to mind are "gross", "close" (adjective only, the
> verb is /kloz/), and "dosido".  "Explosive" (and the phonetician's variant
> "plosive") can have either /s/ or /z/.  On the other hand, for /oz/ there is
> "bows", "blows", "cozy", "closing", "crows", and so on alphabetically.  Do
> you find it surpri/z/ing that "Jose" gets a /z/?
>
Verner's Law 'mesa' and 'jose' have different stress patterns.  Press W's
phonology doesn't follow the penultimate sentence.

But Verner's Law doesn't explain the Jeruzalem items in the original query.
Some lexicalization involved too.

DMLance


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 25 18:38:53 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:38:53 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <76.1e42ae0d.2a4a083e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.143853.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James A. Landau said:
>In a message dated 6/25/02 1:43:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
>>  oopsie.  our bad.  at least they weren't pornographic.
>
>which is fine, because I don't have a pornograph.
>
>Seriously, this is the second time in two days that you have used the
>expression "our bad" or "my bad".  I don't recall ever having heard this
>expression before.
>

Wasn't it in this very forum that we've had several threads on the
expression in the past few years?

Alice


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Tue Jun 25 18:44:09 2002
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:44:09 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.144409.0400.>

Ten four!

"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:
>
> I hope larry and TOM will stop using the ADS system for pornoraphic exchanges!
>
> dInIs
>
>


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Tue Jun 25 18:39:22 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:39:22 -0400
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
In-Reply-To: <B93E1F95.3359%lancedm@missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.143922.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It appears to me that many southerners, black and white, and many young
people here in the midwest, unvoice all final consonants while keeping the
variation in vowel length determined by the voicing, whence the vowel
length becomes phonemic. My ear is not very good so I am not sure, and
maybe some of it is only partial unvoicing.  In my church choir here in
Oberlin, when we are reminded of diction, we pronounce the final "t" with a
clear release in words such as "want", but also in "God" and "Lord" I hear
some choir members pronouncing the final consonant as a released "t".  One
(young) member said that in her former choir in Florida she was explicitly
told not to pronounce it as a released "d" and our {young} choir director
from Illinois agreed that it sounded bad.  Or should I say bat.

I would be curious to know if trained linguists have detected this.

--Charles Wells

>He just didn't pay attention in phonics class and has extended terminal
>voicelessness to all words ending with sibilance.  "It's spelled with an -s
>and people oughta say it with an -s !!"
>DMLance
>
>on 6/25/02 11:42 AM, Dennis R. Preston at preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU wrote:
>
>> And how can any of this account for the fact that W has got no final
>> voiced continuants - plurals (e.g., reaches), possessives (e.g., Bin
>> Laden's), 3rd person indicatives (e.g., begs) or plain old
>> monomorphemes (e.g., badge). Just listen.
>>
>> dInIs
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Dale Coye wrote:
>>>
>>> #I think I commented a few years ago that Joseph is going the other
way-- it
>>> #was always /z/ in the old days, but many young people here in NJ and I've
>>> #heard it from Californians too, now have /s/.   I think Jerusalem may have
>>> #been /z/ too according to some older dictionaries (100 years ago).
>>>
>>> I've heard Jeru/z/alem for a long time; I guess I'm used to it as an
>>> alternate. Like Roly, I've noticed Ka/Z/mir appearing more often in the
>>> news reports in recent... hm, months but the past several years as well,
>>> ISTM.
>>>
>>> However, I noticed /Z/ many decades ago, if memory serves, in the
>>> eponymous "cashmere" -- maybe even in my grandmother's speech (b. NYC
>>> approx. 1889) -- and remarked on it to myself.
>>>
>>> #        I also reported in an AS article a while back on a very
complicated
>>> #regional pattern for 'houses'--the noun plural, which can show either
>/s/ or
>>> #/z/ for both final and medial fricative all over the US.
>>>
>>> How does the distribution of the final /s/ in this plural compare with
>>> general final plural /s/?
>>>
>>> -- Mark A. Mandel
>>> Linguist at Large
>>
>> --
>> Dennis R. Preston
>> Department of Linguistics and Languages
>> Michigan State University
>> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
>> preston at pilot.msu.edu
>> Office: (517)353-0740
>> Fax: (517)432-2736
>>



Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 25 18:45:29 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:45:29 -0400
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
In-Reply-To: <B93E20AE.335A%lancedm@missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.144529.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:29 PM -0500 6/25/02, Donald M Lance wrote:
>on 6/25/02 12:49 PM, James A. Landau at JJJRLandau at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>>  In a message dated 6/25/02 8:43:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>>  charles at FREUDE.COM writes:
>>
>>>  My observation is that in the USA the [second] s in "San Jose" is
>>  essentially always
>>>  voiced, and the s in "El Paso" and names containing "mesa" is never voiced.
>>>  This is probably not related to the placement of the stress, as your
>>>  examples indicate.
>>
>>  I have a suggestion specific to "Jose/".  In English there are very few
>>  common words that have /os/ (that's supposed to be a long "o" as in "home").
>>  The only ones that come to mind are "gross", "close" (adjective only, the
>>  verb is /kloz/), and "dosido".  "Explosive" (and the phonetician's variant
>>  "plosive") can have either /s/ or /z/.  On the other hand, for /oz/ there is
>>  "bows", "blows", "cozy", "closing", "crows", and so on alphabetically.  Do
>>  you find it surpri/z/ing that "Jose" gets a /z/?
>>
>Verner's Law 'mesa' and 'jose' have different stress patterns.  Press W's
>phonology doesn't follow the penultimate sentence.
>
>But Verner's Law doesn't explain the Jeruzalem items in the original query.
>Some lexicalization involved too.
>
Right, but it should be noted that there are MANY speakers who have
always said "Jo[z]e" but have never said "Jeru[z]alem", so I think
the stress difference is relevant here for a lot of us (e.g. me).

larry


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 25 19:04:23 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 15:04:23 EDT
Subject: ethnic jokes
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.150423.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/24/02 8:05:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
einstein at FROGNET.NET writes:

> The Italian jokes of my downstate NY youth were Polish jokes upstate; when I
>  came to Ohio they became WV jokes and on my Fulbright to Germany they
>  transmuted into Fries jokes.  Friesland (Frisia) is the narrow coastal
strip
>  of the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark that borders the North Sea. In
>  Toulouse on a subsequent exchange I was told the French looked down on the
>  Belgians but I heard no jokes at their expense.

In a message dated 6/24/02 10:25:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes:

> Also, with reference to the butts of ethnic jokes: a few years ago I
>  bought a book called "Newfie Jokes", based on the stupidity of people
>  from Newfoundland.  Presumably this stereotype is widespread in the
>  rest of Canada?

Newfoundland did not become part of Canada until 1949.  Newfoundland speech
was first recognized as a unique dialect of English in the 18th Century.
Newfoundland time is GMT + 3 1/2 hours, that is, Newfoundland time is one
HALF hour ahead of  the Atlantic Standard Time used in the rest of the
Maritime Provinces.  Its politics are matched only by those of British
Columbia.

Sad to say, it would be surprising to find that Newfoundlanders had not
acquired an uncomplimentary stereotype and an accompanying set of disparaging
ethnic jokes.

A good analogy would probably be the Ohioans cited above who told West
Virginia jokes ("Have you heard of the twenty West Virginians who suffocated
to death?  They saw a Pontiac GTO, thought it meant 'Going To Ohio', and all
climbed in.")

Now to analyze the examples that have accumulated on (infected?) this thread.

First, ethnic jokes are not a category unto themselves, but are rather a
subcategory of group stereotype jokes.  Consider "blonde jokes".  A coworker
from (I think) Nebraska liked to tell "Aggie" jokes about the state's Ag
school.  (Aside to Mark Mandel: you will recall that Komarrans tell Impsec
jokes).

Group stereotype jokes are not ALWAYS disparaging.  Jews tell fundraiser
jokes, in which the stereotype (well-earned!) is the chutzpah of a
fund-raiser.  E.g. the hard sell given a reluctant donor asked to contribute
towards an exhibit on the Jewish poet Ibn-Gavirol: "He died in his 30's,
leaving behind a penniless widow with 6 children."  The donor, overcome, gave
generously, unaware that Ibn Gavirol has been dead for 600 years.

Then there are the combination stereotype jokes, such as "How do you take a
census in a [insert ethnic name] neighborhood?  Roll a nickel down the
street, count one for everybody who chases after it, and subtract one for the
[different ethnic name] who catches it."

Or "an Aggie and an Asian went fishing.  The Asian catches a fish and starts
staring at it.  [Storyteller pantomines staring at the fish.]  All of a
sudden the fish's eyes slant.  'Why, that's the most amazing thing I ever
saw,' the Aggie said.  'How did you do it.'  'Simple', said the Asian.  'I
look at the fish and think, "I'm smarter than you are."  The Aggie then
catches a fish and starts staring at it.  [Storyteller pantomines staring at
the fish, then once the suspense has built, starts making fish motions with
his mouth]."

We can see several ways to classify group-stereotype jokes and their subset
ethnic jokes.

1)  Complimentary, disparaging, or multi-group contrasting?

2)  Specific to the group being caricatured, or generic?  (The GTO story only
works with people looked down on in Ohio.  The fish joke is difficiult to
tell without an Asian, but the second character can be from any group thought
of as dumb.)

3) Type of joke.  The most commonly encountered types of group-stereotypes
used are:
  - stingy (e.g. Scottish jokes in English)
  - dumb (the Aggie above - many groups, e.g. blondes, can be used)
  - hick (not dumb but uncouth, uncultured, backwoods) e.g. "the groom is the
one in the clean T-shirt"

There are other types.  Greeks, for example, get bend-over jokes.

Polish jokes belong in two of the above categories, namely "dumb" and "hick".
 Consider  T-shirts.  The one about the groom is a "hick" joke, but the
T-shirt (you used to be able to buy them) with the upside-down Polish flag on
it was a "dumb" joke.

It is left as an exercise for the reader to classify the following:  At his
farewell party, a departing tennis-playing Pole was presented by his
ex-coworkers with a "Polish guitar", which was, of course, a tennis racket.

To conclude with a true story:  a Polish co-worker (not the tennis player)
reported to our office that he had put a "THANK GOD I'M POLISH" bumper
sticker on his car, and his WASP neighbor, watching, stood there confused.
It seems the WASP, deprived of the clue of upper- and lower-case letters, had
mentally rhymed "POLISH" with "demolish".

      - Jim Landau

While the bottom of the infamous Polish beer can reads "Open other end", the
good people of Chelm reason that if the end-user cannot tell from the writing
on the side of the can which end is up, no amount of writing on the bottom of
the can will help, and therefore Chelmisher beer cans have pop tops on both
ends.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 25 19:10:40 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 15:10:40 EDT
Subject: Off Off Topic
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.151040.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/25/02 1:57:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes:

> On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:
>
>  >Seriously, this is the second time in two days that you have used the
>  >expression "our bad" or "my bad".  I don't recall ever having heard this
>  >expression before.
>
>  Where have you been HIDING? Or who have you been hanging with? I have been
>  hearing it and occasionally using it for at least 10-12 years, I think.

Where have I been hiding?  Obvious not in the BAD lands.

         - Jim Landau


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 25 19:33:40 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 15:33:40 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <76.1e42ae0d.2a4a083e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.153340.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Long-standing sports talk (by a player who has just goofed).


dInIs



>In a message dated 6/25/02 1:43:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
>>  oopsie.  our bad.  at least they weren't pornographic.
>
>which is fine, because I don't have a pornograph.
>
>Seriously, this is the second time in two days that you have used the
>expression "our bad" or "my bad".  I don't recall ever having heard this
>expression before.
>
>       - Jim Landau

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 25 19:44:06 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 15:44:06 -0400
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20020625143226.00b95110@mail.oberlin.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.154406.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

True enough, especially in AAVE, but, interestingly, it is more often
stops which devoiced (and deleted), and it is well-documented; W does
this with continuants.

dInIs

>It appears to me that many southerners, black and white, and many young
>people here in the midwest, unvoice all final consonants while keeping the
>variation in vowel length determined by the voicing, whence the vowel
>length becomes phonemic. My ear is not very good so I am not sure, and
>maybe some of it is only partial unvoicing.  In my church choir here in
>Oberlin, when we are reminded of diction, we pronounce the final "t" with a
>clear release in words such as "want", but also in "God" and "Lord" I hear
>some choir members pronouncing the final consonant as a released "t".  One
>(young) member said that in her former choir in Florida she was explicitly
>told not to pronounce it as a released "d" and our {young} choir director
>from Illinois agreed that it sounded bad.  Or should I say bat.
>
>I would be curious to know if trained linguists have detected this.
>
>--Charles Wells
>
>>He just didn't pay attention in phonics class and has extended terminal
>>voicelessness to all words ending with sibilance.  "It's spelled with an -s
>>and people oughta say it with an -s !!"
>>DMLance
>>
>>on 6/25/02 11:42 AM, Dennis R. Preston at preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU wrote:
>>
>>>  And how can any of this account for the fact that W has got no final
>>>  voiced continuants - plurals (e.g., reaches), possessives (e.g., Bin
>>>  Laden's), 3rd person indicatives (e.g., begs) or plain old
>>>  monomorphemes (e.g., badge). Just listen.
>>>
>>>  dInIs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>  On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Dale Coye wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  #I think I commented a few years ago that Joseph is going the other
>way-- it
>>>>  #was always /z/ in the old days, but many young people here in NJ and I've
>>>>  #heard it from Californians too, now have /s/.   I think
>>>>Jerusalem may have
>>>>  #been /z/ too according to some older dictionaries (100 years ago).
>>>>
>>>>  I've heard Jeru/z/alem for a long time; I guess I'm used to it as an
>>>>  alternate. Like Roly, I've noticed Ka/Z/mir appearing more often in the
>>>>  news reports in recent... hm, months but the past several years as well,
>>>>  ISTM.
>>>>
>>>>  However, I noticed /Z/ many decades ago, if memory serves, in the
>>>>  eponymous "cashmere" -- maybe even in my grandmother's speech (b. NYC
>>>>  approx. 1889) -- and remarked on it to myself.
>>>>
>>>>  #        I also reported in an AS article a while back on a very
>complicated
>>>>  #regional pattern for 'houses'--the noun plural, which can show either
>>/s/ or
>>>>  #/z/ for both final and medial fricative all over the US.
>>>>
>>>>  How does the distribution of the final /s/ in this plural compare with
>>>>  general final plural /s/?
>>>>
>>>>  -- Mark A. Mandel
>>>>  Linguist at Large
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  Dennis R. Preston
>>>  Department of Linguistics and Languages
>>>  Michigan State University
>>>  East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
>>>  preston at pilot.msu.edu
>>>  Office: (517)353-0740
>>>  Fax: (517)432-2736
>>>
>
>
>
>Charles Wells
>professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
>personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
>genealogical website:
>http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
>NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From Heaberlin at SWT.EDU  Tue Jun 25 06:12:58 2002
From: Heaberlin at SWT.EDU (Dickie Maurice Heaberlin)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:12:58 +0800
Subject: my bad
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.141258.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The interesting thing is that on the basketball courts where I play three
times a week, I seldom hear "my bad" any more. I wonder if it is dying out
already. I heard it commonly and started saying it back in the 80s and until
recently. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'll probably say it tomorrow.

Dickie Heaberlin
San Marcos, Texas


From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU  Wed Jun 26 01:02:53 2002
From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 20:02:53 -0500
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
In-Reply-To: <p0432040ab93e6a7932fa@[130.132.245.190]>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.200253.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 6/25/02 1:45 PM, Laurence Horn at laurence.horn at YALE.EDU wrote:

> At 1:29 PM -0500 6/25/02, Donald M Lance wrote:
>> on 6/25/02 12:49 PM, James A. Landau at JJJRLandau at AOL.COM wrote:
>>
>>> In a message dated 6/25/02 8:43:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>>> charles at FREUDE.COM writes:
>>>
>>>> My observation is that in the USA the [second] s in "San Jose" is
>>> essentially always
>>>> voiced, and the s in "El Paso" and names containing "mesa" is never voiced.
>>>> This is probably not related to the placement of the stress, as your
>>>> examples indicate.
>>>
>>> I have a suggestion specific to "Jose/".  In English there are very few
>>> common words that have /os/ (that's supposed to be a long "o" as in "home").
>>> The only ones that come to mind are "gross", "close" (adjective only, the
>>> verb is /kloz/), and "dosido".  "Explosive" (and the phonetician's variant
>>> "plosive") can have either /s/ or /z/.  On the other hand, for /oz/ there is
>>> "bows", "blows", "cozy", "closing", "crows", and so on alphabetically.  Do
>>> you find it surpri/z/ing that "Jose" gets a /z/?
>>>
>> Verner's Law 'mesa' and 'jose' have different stress patterns.  Press W's
>> phonology doesn't follow the penultimate sentence.
>>
>> But Verner's Law doesn't explain the Jeruzalem items in the original query.
>> Some lexicalization involved too.
>>
> Right, but it should be noted that there are MANY speakers who have
> always said "Jo[z]e" but have never said "Jeru[z]alem", so I think
> the stress difference is relevant here for a lot of us (e.g. me).
>
> larry
>
If I use four syllables, it's Je ru sa lem, but if three it's Je ruz lem.

DMLance


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 26 03:22:57 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:22:57 EDT
Subject: Reindeer Hot Dogs & moosecellaneous from Alaska
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.232257.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Anchorage, Alaska...."Moosecellaneous" is from a sign here.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
REINDEER HOT DOGS

ALASKAN REINDEER HOT DOGS & SAUSAGE--a stand near city hall, on 4th Avenue.

TIA'S GOURMET HOT DOGS & SAUSAGE--the stand across the street, which serves:
Hot Dog (kosher)  $3.50
Reindeer              $3.50
Hot Louisiana       $3.50
German Bratwurst $3.50
All Beer Kosher
(The "kosher" is for those Alaskan people from, well, "Jew-know"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
SALAD AND PASTA "PAWS"

   "Salad paws" are popular here.
   http://www.greatnorthernproducts.com sells Great Northern Grizzly Paws,
"great for salad making."  It also sells Moose Mixers, and "9 our of 10 moose
highly recommend Moose Mixers for salad and pasta tossing."
   http://www.alaskagift.com sells Big Dippers (made in Taiwan).
   http://www.lasertechalaska.com sells Grizzlies Salad & Pasta Hands.
   http://www.theulufactory.com sells Alaska Grabbers.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
ULU

   Sold everywhere.  "Alaska ulu knife, historic knife of the Arctic" is the
large display by http://www.ulu.com (made in China).  It's Great Northern
Cutlery Co, 1-800-644-1184.  Does OED have "ulu"?  DARE?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
BEAR CLAWS, MOOSE TRACKS, CARAMEL CARIBOU, HUCKLEBERRY HEAVEN

   The Solstice Cafe offers these items.  I was told that they're sold by
Denali Ice Cream, owned by the Cascade Ice Cream Company of Oregon.  I don't
have a web site.
   Many of these items are made by Alaska Jack (http://www.alaskajack.com):

GRIZZLY BEAR CLAW--caramel and almonds covered in milk chocolate.
MOOSE NUGGETS--peanut butter filled pretzels covered in chocolate & toasted
coconut.
POLAR CLUB PAWS--caramel and almonds covered in white chocolate.
POLAR BEAR SMOOCH--two types of chocolate kissed by peppermint.
POLAR PUCKERS--crunchy lemon bits and white chocolate drenched in dark
chocolate.
POLAR POPPERS--carameled popcorn covered in rich milk chocolate.
MOOSE CRUNCH--jumbo milk chocolate covered malt balls.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
DROPPINGS=CHOCOLATE

   Many other companies have gone the "droppings=chocolate" way.
   These are from Best Gourmet Products, North Vancouver BC (although the
products declare themselves as Alaskan):

MOOSE GREETINGS--chocolate covered almonds.
BEAR HUGS--chocolate buds.
EAGLE DROPPINGS--chocolate covered peanuts.
WOLF DROPPINGS--chocolate covered buds.
MOOSE NUTS
honey roasted peanuts.
ALASKA MOSQUITO EGGS--bubble gum.
ALASKA SALMON EGGS--bubble gum balls.

   From The Chocolate Moose. Fairplay, CO:
CHOCOLATE BEAR POO--chocolate peanut clusters.
FISH EGGS--yogurt covered raisins.
CHOCOLATE MOOSE DROPPINGS--chocolate coated almonds.

   From other companies:
ALASKAN GOURMET MOOSE DROPPINGS--toffee and caramel.
BULL MOOSE EGGS--bubble gum.
GLACIER POPCORN--fresh salted popcorn coated in white chocolate.

   Non-food gift items for someone you just love:
ALASKA MOOSE NUGGET LIP CHAP
PET "MOOSE" NUGGET
"A GENUINE ALASKAN FLOATER" FOR THE NATURAL SPORTSPERSON
TUNDRA TURDS

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BAKED ALASKA, ESKIMO PIE, ESKIMO ICE CREAM

   Baked Alaska and Eskimo Pie have been documented before.  Neither is from
Alaska.
   "Eskimo ice cream," I was told, is whale or seal blubber with berries.
(I'll pass.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
GRAND SLAM BREAKFAST

   The Solstice Cafe's "Grand Slam" breakfast is:

pancakes, eggs, bacon or reindeer sausages with choice of toast.

(Hey!  Enough with the reindeer!--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MOOSECELLANEOUS

ALSKA BEAR APPROVED WILDERNESS MIX
ALASKA EAGLE APPROVED MUNCHIE MIX
MOUNT McKINLEY--served at the Hilton and perhaps no where else, I was told.
A three-layer ice cream cake.
PACIFIC CLUB--the club sandwich at the Hilton.  Looks like any other club
sandwich.
KACHEMAK BAYWICH--breaded Alaskan halibut with caper aioli served on a
toasted rosemary bread.  (This "BAYWICH" is served at the Hilton's Hooper Bay
Cafe--ed.)

Gotta go!


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 26 11:39:00 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 07:39:00 EDT
Subject: Reindeer Hot Dogs & moosecellaneous from Alaska
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.073900.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Something that even the sane fear
Is that Santa won't want to remain here
     But he puts on his fez
     When Mrs. Claus says
"I think it's going to rain, dear."


       - James A. Landau


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Wed Jun 26 15:00:10 2002
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:00:10 -0400
Subject: router
In-Reply-To: <000d01c21c0c$58206ae0$0300a8c0@HPN5290>
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.110010.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Publishers still routinely use routing slips too. (rowting) You have to
circulate various passes of everything from front and back matter to covers
to full manuscripts. It's a convenient way to tell who has looked at, and
signed off on, a given pass.

Wendalyn Nichols

At 10:51 PM 6/24/02 -0700, Dave Wilton wrote:
> > Another angle and a possible precursor concerns army use in the
> > signals corps. A correspondent on my Aus language email list offers
> > the following:
> >
> > As an Army signaller my experience of the word pre-dates
> > modern computers.
> > In the days of torn tape relay messaging, there were alpha
> > numeric codes
> > which were called routing (pron rowting) indicators. That was
> > when it was
> > done handraulically.
>
>Back in my US Army days (late 80s) we had routing slips (also pron rowting),
>yellow pieces of paper that were stapled to the covers of documents that
>indicated which offices/persons should see the document and in which order.
>Of course we could have just used a photocopier, but I guess some traditions
>die hard. Saved a lot of trees though.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 26 16:42:03 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:42:03 EDT
Subject: Alaska Glossary
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.124203.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings.  It appears that I'm still in Anchorage, but that'll change in
a few minutes.
   Check out www.madeinalaska.org.  If you want me to bring something home,
like Moose Droppings or a Moose Mixer, tell me now.
   The State Library is FIVE MILES out of town!  I don't have time to go.
The Library of Congress microfilms newspapers from at least two of each
state's biggest cities.  Alaska wasn't a state in the 1800s, but I'll try to
do the work at the LOC, including researching  Menzies' Journals.
   LIFE'S A FISH AND THEN YOU FRY: AN ALASKA SEAFOOD COOKBOOK (2002) by Randy
Bayliss I'll get to later when I have time.
   HOW TO SPEAK ALASKAN (1993) is still sold here.  I bought it two weeks ago
on Amazon's Bookfinder or Bibliofind, and the shipping cost was almost as
much as the book.  And it didn't arrive in two weeks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
MY FIRST POCKET GUIDE
ALASKA
by Carole Marsh
Gallopade International, www.thealaskaexperience.com
96 pages, paperback, $6.95
2001

Pg. 94:
      ALASKA GLOSSARY

bear paws:  stubby, rounded snowshoes
bunny boots:  white, insulated boots for below-zero temperatures
cabin fever:  what folks get when they've been in cold, damp, cramped
quarters too long!
Chilkat blankets:  beautiful ceremonial blankets worn by Tlingit Indians
Dyea, Glacier, Hyder:  boom towns, now ghost towns
fjords:  naroow sea inlet bordered by steep cliffs
kayak:  watertight Eskimo skin boat
masks:  ceremonial masks made and worn by Alaska's Eskimos, Aleuts, and
Indians
mukluks:  soft Eskimo boots made of animal skin and fur
muskeg:  grassy bog or swamp land
Outside:  where all other Americans live, also Lower 48
panhandle:  southeast Alaska
parka:  one-piece, hooded pullover coat made of caribou hide and wolf and
wolverine furs
sundog:  optical illusion, one or two colorful circles around the sun


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Jun 26 21:29:13 2002
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 16:29:13 -0500
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <32.28f5640d.2a4b48db@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.162913.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was going through my Chicago Tribune this morning when I opened up a two
page spread for an IBM ThinkPad ad. My eyes passed over the text on the
left and moved to the person sitting just to the right of center, amid
shelves with lots of books. My first thought was, "Gee, he looks
familiar!", but assumed I had seen the ad before, or at least the model.
Then I looked back at the text on the left (since my glimpse of it
suggested there was a pronunciation and/or a definition embedded in it).
Imagine my surprise! The quote was from Jesse Sheidlower! This is the first
time I have ever seen someone in an ad I actually knew!

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Jun 26 21:44:18 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:44:18 -0400
Subject: Query: Dialect Ten
In-Reply-To: <NFBBJGBONPELCEAMOPOHOEMOCMAA.mmarietta@garygroup.com>
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.174418.0400.>

Please respond to the original sender as well as the list, not just to me.

------ Forwarded Message
From: "Michele Marietta" <mmarietta at garygroup.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:36:38 -0700
Subject: dialect ten

hi there.
have you heard of this?
do you know where it's from - which region of the US?
I'm curious and haven't found a thing about it on the internet.
cheers.
michele

*******************
Michele Marietta
Media Account Executive
The Gary Group
P 310.449.7607
F 310.264.9744



------ End of Forwarded Message


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Jun 26 23:17:30 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:17:30 -0400
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <v04011702b93fe1664e18@[128.135.231.204]>
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.191730.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 04:29:13PM -0500, Barbara Need wrote:
> I was going through my Chicago Tribune this morning when I opened up a two
> page spread for an IBM ThinkPad ad. My eyes passed over the text on the
> left and moved to the person sitting just to the right of center, amid
> shelves with lots of books. My first thought was, "Gee, he looks
> familiar!", but assumed I had seen the ad before, or at least the model.
> Then I looked back at the text on the left (since my glimpse of it
> suggested there was a pronunciation and/or a definition embedded in it).
> Imagine my surprise! The quote was from Jesse Sheidlower! This is the first
> time I have ever seen someone in an ad I actually knew!

Heh. Yeah, it was a little unexpected. And I didn't have much to do with
the choice of word, or its definition (though I did insist on IPA instead
of "HAL-see-un"). But it was very nice for OED, and nice for me both in
terms of publicity and because I got to keep the computer. Which, by the
way, was _not_ running Windows, as the ad suggested, but FreeBSD.

Thanks for the note.

Best,

Jesse


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 27 02:38:04 2002
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 22:38:04 EDT
Subject: IBM ad
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.223804.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yeah--two-page spread in today's NY Times too--a great shot.   But!   the
most common US pronunciation of halcyon is missing--   /'hael si an/--  All
three-syllable words with first syllable stress from the Greek ending in -on
have changed from
/- at n/ to /-an/ for most Americans (paragon,  Marathon (the small town near
Cortland, NY is still /- at n/ for my father), Pantheon, Babylon, Amazon,
Myrmidon, Xenophon, -- and my research shows that the same thing is now
happening in the UK as well, though they hung onto schwa for longer.   The
interesting thing is that Bible names maintain the schwa-- Solomon, Simeon,
Gideon,  except for Lebanon (though Lebanon, NY in Madison Co. again shows
schwa for older speakers).

Dale Coye
The College of NJ

In a message dated 06/26/2002 5:30:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes:


> I was going through my Chicago Tribune this morning when I opened up a two
> page spread for an IBM ThinkPad ad. My eyes passed over the text on the
> left and moved to the person sitting just to the right of center, amid
> shelves with lots of books. My first thought was, "Gee, he looks
> familiar!", but assumed I had seen the ad before, or at least the model.
> Then I looked back at the text on the left (since my glimpse of it
> suggested there was a pronunciation and/or a definition embedded in it).
> Imagine my surprise! The quote was from Jesse Sheidlower! This is the first
> time I have ever seen someone in an ad I actually knew!
>
> Barbara Need
> UChicago--Linguistics
>


From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG  Thu Jun 27 02:53:17 2002
From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 22:53:17 -0400
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <10.20e64d28.2a4bd48c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.225317.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 6/26/2002 22:38, Dale Coye wrote the following:

>Bible names maintain the schwa-- Solomon, Simeon, Gideon,  except for
>Lebanon (though Lebanon, NY in Madison Co. again shows schwa for older
>speakers).

FWIW, Mt. Lebanon, PA is pronounced ['lEb at nIn] or ['lEb at n@n] by the
natives.  Anything else marks you as an out-of-towner.  The country of
Lebanon is pronounced canonically, as ['lEb at nan].

Cheers,
Scott

_____________________________________________________________
Scott Sadowsky  --  Spanish-English / English-Spanish Translator

sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org · sadowsky at bigfoot.com
http://www.spanishtranslator.org
_____________________________________________________________
"Nunca me he sentido mejor sujeto que cuando he predicado."
   -- Les Luthiers


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun 27 02:55:33 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 22:55:33 -0400
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <10.20e64d28.2a4bd48c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.225533.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 10:38:04PM -0400, Dale Coye wrote:
> Yeah--two-page spread in today's NY Times too--a great shot.   But!   the
> most common US pronunciation of halcyon is missing--   /'hael si an/--

I think they just took the OED pronunciation, and I had a hard enough
time getting them to use IPA so I didn't complain.

Jesse Sheidlower


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Thu Jun 27 03:08:08 2002
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 23:08:08 -0400
Subject: Seeking two words
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.230808.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

First, Most cultures have some kind of celebration of the solstice and
the equinox. They are well known. But most cultures also have somewhat
less important holidays at the mid-point between each -- Feb 1st or 2nd,
May 1st, August 1st (Lughnasa or Lammas, first fruits, for those of you
who don't celebrate that a whole lot) and Nov 1st. What are these called?
Cross-calender holidays comes to mind, but I don't think that is right.

Second, (and I may have asked this before, but got no replies) there is a
technical term for knuckle walking, as apes do. Anyone know what it is. I
have looked under all the appropriate and accessible Latin and Greek
words.

D


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 27 04:16:41 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 00:16:41 -0400
Subject: 200 words for snow; Alaska Place Names
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.001641.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Denali.  Congrats to Jesse for the ad.  Me, I'm still cursing out my broker for getting me to buy Worldcom.

--------------------------------------------------------------
200 WORDS FOR SNOW

   I visited Wasilla, AK, the home of the Iditarod.  In the video BEYOND COURAGE, someone said that there are "200 words for snow."  If you want more on the video, it's iditarod at iditarod.com.  You can tell them how many words there are for wrong.

---------------------------------------------------------------
ALASKA PLACE NAMES

   I was asked about this.  I was shown (at the visitors bureau) the 1967 book by Don Orth, and there have been minor revisions in 1971.  On the cover was a note to call 562-6277 for a book DICTIONARY OF AK PLACE NAMES.  I don't know if this is the same book or not.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Thu Jun 27 04:23:22 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 21:23:22 -0700
Subject: halcyon
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.212322.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dale,
        I think the alternating stress rule is responsible for the
tertiary stress on Amazon, etc., which requires an /a/, as /@/ is likely
to occur only under weak stress. <halcyon> is the only one of those you
cite which is an adjective rather than a noun, so it would not surprise me
that the stress pattern might be different (cf. verbs vs adjectives ending
in -ate), as it is for me, since I have weakly-stressed /@n/ in the last
syllable. However, cross-class "infection" does occur, which is evidently
what you are attesting to.

        Rudy

Hoping to see Jesse in Newsweek. (Incidentally, what's FreeSBD?)


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 27 04:58:16 2002
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 21:58:16 -0700
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <10.20e64d28.2a4bd48c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.215816.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... But!   the
>most common US pronunciation of halcyon is missing--   /'hael si an/--  All
>three-syllable words with first syllable stress from the Greek
>ending in -on...

That didn't bother me nearly as much as the sh (can't make the long s
so you could all see it) in the pron variant.  I did see it in the
Oxford Shorter, but then there was the option of a schwa plus n or
syllabic n, not -i schwa n as in the ad.

Rima


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Jun 27 05:49:45 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 01:49:45 -0400
Subject: Seeking two words
In-Reply-To: <20020626.230828.-105935.23.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.014945.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>First, Most cultures have some kind of celebration of the solstice and the
>equinox. They are well known. But most cultures also have somewhat less
>important holidays at the mid-point between each ... What are these called?

Sometimes these are called cross-quarter days.

>Second, ... there is a technical term for knuckle walking, as apes do.

Plantigrade/palmigrade = walking on the sole/palm, digitigrade = walking on
the finger(s), unguligrade = walking on the fingernail(s) [e.g., hooves],
taligrade = walking on the side of the foot, dorsigrade = walking on the
back (dorsum) of the foot/toes. These are all adjectives. I suppose a
gorilla's knuckle-walking is a partly dorsigrade gait (I think with the
forelimbs dorsigrade and the hindlimbs plantigrade?). I can't find anything
else right away.

-- Doug Wilson


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Thu Jun 27 11:37:06 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:37:06 -0400
Subject: Seeking two words
In-Reply-To: <20020626.230828.-105935.23.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.073706.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the Christian calendar, November 1 is All Saints Day (All Hallows Day)
and is historically the origin of Halloween (All Hallows Eve).  The church
fathers probably chose it because it was the time of a pagan celebration,
as they did the date of Christmas.  (I am not saying it was a bad thing to
do that.)  All Saints Day is a day of obligation for Catholics.

--Charles Wells

>First, Most cultures have some kind of celebration of the solstice and
>the equinox. They are well known. But most cultures also have somewhat
>less important holidays at the mid-point between each -- Feb 1st or 2nd,
>May 1st, August 1st (Lughnasa or Lammas, first fruits, for those of you
>who don't celebrate that a whole lot) and Nov 1st. What are these called?
>Cross-calender holidays comes to mind, but I don't think that is right.
>
>Second, (and I may have asked this before, but got no replies) there is a
>technical term for knuckle walking, as apes do. Anyone know what it is. I
>have looked under all the appropriate and accessible Latin and Greek
>words.
>
>D



Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Thu Jun 27 11:51:47 2002
From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:51:47 -0400
Subject: Seeking two words
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.075147.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I found:

"Cross-Quartered Days" at
http://www.louisville.edu/~aoclar01/ancient/astronomy/sun.htm

"cross-quarters" from http://www.paganspath.com/magik/norse/wheel.htm

"cross-quarters" also at
http://www.paganlibrary.com/introductory/modern_paganism.php


http://druidry.org/obod/druid-path/eight-foldyear.html implies in
context that they should be called "lunar observances", but doesn't
state this outright (imho and beside the point, 'lunar' would be the
wrong thing to call these days since their timing is still governed by
solar procession).



Duane Campbell wrote:
>
> First, Most cultures have some kind of celebration of the solstice and
> the equinox. They are well known. But most cultures also have somewhat
> less important holidays at the mid-point between each -- Feb 1st or 2nd,
> May 1st, August 1st (Lughnasa or Lammas, first fruits, for those of you
> who don't celebrate that a whole lot) and Nov 1st. What are these called?
> Cross-calender holidays comes to mind, but I don't think that is right.
>
> Second, (and I may have asked this before, but got no replies) there is a
> technical term for knuckle walking, as apes do. Anyone know what it is. I
> have looked under all the appropriate and accessible Latin and Greek
> words.
>
> D

--
 .............................................
.          D r e w  D a n i e l s o n         .
.          <andrew.danielson at cmu.edu>         .
. Admin for Krogh, Gabriel, Fedder & Rajkumar .
. Carnegie Mellon University • ECE Department .
. 5000 Forbes Avenue  •  Pittsburgh, PA 15213 .
. +1 412 268-2188 Voice • +1 412 268-3890 Fax .
.        http://pcdrew.ece.cmu.edu/           .
 .............................................
 To be matter of fact about the world is to
 blunder into fantasy -- and dull fantasy at
 that, as the real world is strange and
 wonderful.             -- Robert A. Heinlein


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun 27 12:57:52 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 08:57:52 -0400
Subject: halcyon
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0206262114520.9736-100000@ptah.u.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.085752.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Hoping to see Jesse in Newsweek. (Incidentally, what's FreeSBD?)

The ad was in Newsweek a month or so ago.

FreeBSD is a variant of the Unix operating system. See
http://www.freebsd.org for more info. It's great.

Jesse


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 27 10:24:56 2002
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 03:24:56 -0700
Subject: Query: British Linguistics Projects
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.032456.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I will teach a course in the Advanced Studies in England program in
Bath next summer and am looking for interesting linguistics studies
(suggested project topics) students can do related to Bath and the
surrounding areas, suitable for a five-week course. I want students
to closely observe British language characteristics and usage during
their time in England. I would appreciate any suggestions offered.

Thanks,
Margaret Lee

=====
Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Associate Professor - English and Linguistics
 & University Editor
Department of English
Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
(757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home)
e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu   or   mlee303 at yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST  Thu Jun 27 14:09:21 2002
From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:09:21 +0200
Subject: Seeking two words
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.160921.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In old Scandinavia the Disting was a "thing" named after "disablot", a fertility offering to the viking's "dis"-es or fylgias at the beginning of Spring. Later, it became a market feast around Candlemas, in some places held up to the last century, and at Uppsala even today.
The Walpurgis feast on April 30 is well known in northern Europe.
The Olofsmas on July 29 represented the end of an agricultural year (harvest) and the beginning of a new.

I cannot recall seeing a term for knuckle-walking. There is "dactylograde" for toe-walking. Maybe "phalangograde" could be a word?

Jan Ivarsson, TransEdit
Translator, Subtitler
jan.ivarsson at transedit.st


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Jun 27 14:18:44 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:18:44 -0400
Subject: Query: Dialect Ten
In-Reply-To: <B93FADF2.5127%gbarrett@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.101844.0400.>

On 6/26/02 17:44, "Grant Barrett" <gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG> wrote:

> Please respond to the original sender as well as the list, not just to me.
>
> ------ Forwarded Message
> From: "Michele Marietta" <mmarietta at garygroup.com>
> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:36:38 -0700
> Subject: dialect ten
>
> hi there.
> have you heard of this?
> do you know where it's from - which region of the US?
> I'm curious and haven't found a thing about it on the internet.

She followed up with this, which explains what "dialect ten" is supposed to
describe:

i'm taking a linguistics class at my university and we were presented with a
sentence:

"mark's shirt needs ironed."

we all thought it was rubbish, but the instructor assured us that it was
indeed a dialect, dialect ten, and that
he'd grown up in the area of the US where that was considered a fine
sentence.  however, he didn't tell us
where dialect ten was from.




--

Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
http://www.worldnewyork.org/


From pkurtz at HEIDELBERG.EDU  Thu Jun 27 14:28:53 2002
From: pkurtz at HEIDELBERG.EDU (Patti Kurtz)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:28:53 -0400
Subject: Query: Dialect Ten
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.102853.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm not sure if this helps, but I'm from the Pittsburgh area originally, and
that's a well formed sentence in my dialect (I say things like that all the
time, even though I took grief about it in college).

I've never heard it called "dialect 10" though.  Wonder what dialect 1 would
be then?

Patti Kurtz
English Department
Heidelberg College
Tiffin, Ohio

-----Original Message-----
From: Grant Barrett <gbarrett at worldnewyork.org>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 27, 2002 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: Query: Dialect Ten


>On 6/26/02 17:44, "Grant Barrett" <gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG> wrote:
>
>> Please respond to the original sender as well as the list, not just to
me.
>>
>> ------ Forwarded Message
>> From: "Michele Marietta" <mmarietta at garygroup.com>
>> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:36:38 -0700
>> Subject: dialect ten
>>
>> hi there.
>> have you heard of this?
>> do you know where it's from - which region of the US?
>> I'm curious and haven't found a thing about it on the internet.
>
>She followed up with this, which explains what "dialect ten" is supposed to
>describe:
>
>i'm taking a linguistics class at my university and we were presented with
a
>sentence:
>
>"mark's shirt needs ironed."
>
>we all thought it was rubbish, but the instructor assured us that it was
>indeed a dialect, dialect ten, and that
>he'd grown up in the area of the US where that was considered a fine
>sentence.  however, he didn't tell us
>where dialect ten was from.
>
>
>
>
>--
>
>Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
>gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
>http://www.worldnewyork.org/
>


From bj4 at ANDREW.CMU.EDU  Thu Jun 27 15:02:18 2002
From: bj4 at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Barbara Johnstone)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:02:18 -0400
Subject: new website about Pittsburgh speech
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.110218.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here is a new resource for students and members of the general public
interested in the speech of the Pittsburgh area.  The information on this
website is based on research by Barbara Johnstone, Professor of Linguistics
and Rhetoric at Carnegie Mellon University, and Scott F. Kiesling,
Assistant Professor of Linguistics at the University of Pittsburgh.
Johnstone and Kiesling are sociolinguists who are studying the speech of
the Pittsburgh area. The site was designed by students at Carnegie Mellon
University.

http://english.cmu.edu/pittsburghspeech/


Hope it's useful to some of you.

Barbara



_____________________
Barbara Johnstone
Professor of Rhetoric and Linguistics
Department of English, Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh PA 15213-3890 USA

bj4 at andrew.cmu.edu
412.268.6447 office phone/voicemail, 412.268.7989 fax
http://english.cmu.edu/people/faculty/homepages/johnstone/default.html


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Jun 27 15:20:21 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:20:21 -0400
Subject: Query: Dialect Ten
In-Reply-To: <002601c21de6$f7fe0aa0$a46e8b8d@PattiKurtz>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.112021.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Need+past participle is indeed much more widespread than Pittsburgh
(see recent articles by Frazer, Murray, and Simon in AS, but the
mystery of "Dialect Ten" is easily solved if you look at the back of
any ADS t-shirt (and consult the handout which accompanied it for the
reference).

dInIs





>I'm not sure if this helps, but I'm from the Pittsburgh area originally, and
>that's a well formed sentence in my dialect (I say things like that all the
>time, even though I took grief about it in college).
>
>I've never heard it called "dialect 10" though.  Wonder what dialect 1 would
>be then?
>
>Patti Kurtz
>English Department
>Heidelberg College
>Tiffin, Ohio
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Grant Barrett <gbarrett at worldnewyork.org>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Date: Thursday, June 27, 2002 10:18 AM
>Subject: Re: Query: Dialect Ten
>
>
>>On 6/26/02 17:44, "Grant Barrett" <gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG> wrote:
>>
>>>  Please respond to the original sender as well as the list, not just to
>me.
>>>
>>>  ------ Forwarded Message
>>>  From: "Michele Marietta" <mmarietta at garygroup.com>
>>>  Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:36:38 -0700
>>>  Subject: dialect ten
>>>
>>>  hi there.
>>>  have you heard of this?
>>>  do you know where it's from - which region of the US?
>>>  I'm curious and haven't found a thing about it on the internet.
>>
>>She followed up with this, which explains what "dialect ten" is supposed to
>>describe:
>>
>>i'm taking a linguistics class at my university and we were presented with
>a
>>sentence:
>>
>>"mark's shirt needs ironed."
>>
>>we all thought it was rubbish, but the instructor assured us that it was
>>indeed a dialect, dialect ten, and that
>>he'd grown up in the area of the US where that was considered a fine
>>sentence.  however, he didn't tell us
>>where dialect ten was from.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
>>gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
>>http://www.worldnewyork.org/
>>

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Jun 27 15:41:28 2002
From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:41:28 -0500
Subject: Query: Dialect Ten
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b940dcff9ac2@[35.10.92.197]>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.104128.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInis,

Thanks for the plug.

DMLance

on 6/27/02 10:20 AM, Dennis R. Preston at preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU wrote:

> Need+past participle is indeed much more widespread than Pittsburgh
> (see recent articles by Frazer, Murray, and Simon in AS, but the
> mystery of "Dialect Ten" is easily solved if you look at the back of
> any ADS t-shirt (and consult the handout which accompanied it for the
> reference).
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
>
>
>> I'm not sure if this helps, but I'm from the Pittsburgh area originally, and
>> that's a well formed sentence in my dialect (I say things like that all the
>> time, even though I took grief about it in college).
>>
>> I've never heard it called "dialect 10" though.  Wonder what dialect 1 would
>> be then?
>>
>> Patti Kurtz
>> English Department
>> Heidelberg College
>> Tiffin, Ohio
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Grant Barrett <gbarrett at worldnewyork.org>
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Date: Thursday, June 27, 2002 10:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: Query: Dialect Ten
>>
>>
>>> On 6/26/02 17:44, "Grant Barrett" <gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Please respond to the original sender as well as the list, not just to
>> me.
>>>>
>>>> ------ Forwarded Message
>>>> From: "Michele Marietta" <mmarietta at garygroup.com>
>>>> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:36:38 -0700
>>>> Subject: dialect ten
>>>>
>>>> hi there.
>>>> have you heard of this?
>>>> do you know where it's from - which region of the US?
>>>> I'm curious and haven't found a thing about it on the internet.
>>>
>>> She followed up with this, which explains what "dialect ten" is supposed to
>>> describe:
>>>
>>> i'm taking a linguistics class at my university and we were presented with
>> a
>>> sentence:
>>>
>>> "mark's shirt needs ironed."
>>>
>>> we all thought it was rubbish, but the instructor assured us that it was
>>> indeed a dialect, dialect ten, and that
>>> he'd grown up in the area of the US where that was considered a fine
>>> sentence.  however, he didn't tell us
>>> where dialect ten was from.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
>>> gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
>>> http://www.worldnewyork.org/
>>>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
> preston at pilot.msu.edu
> Office: (517)353-0740
> Fax: (517)432-2736
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Jun 27 17:04:34 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:04:34 -0500
Subject: Query: Was a gold ball really thrown out to start season?
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.120434.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   This isn't from the 19th century, but maybe someone could help. The
newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_ (April 2, 1913)  mentions a gold
ball being thrown out to open  the baseball season of the Pacific
Coast League.

     What exactly is meant by a gold ball? It's not likely to have
been solid gold.
Was it just gilded a bit on the surface? There was a type of ball
called a Goldsmith, but that didn't seem to be anything special.

   So I guess the question comes down to: How much gold was there in
the gold ball that was thrown out to open the season?  Would anyone
be familiar with this custom (throwing out a gold ball)?

    Any help would be much appreciated. The relevant quote appears
right after my signoff.

Gerald Cohen

_San Francisco Bulletin_, April 2, 1913, p.17/3-5; 'Thirteen
Combination Upsets Seals'; col. 5: 'Mayor Rolph was on the job with
the first ball. "Doc" Frost, with chest expanded and his chin high in
the air walked out to the mound and presented the city's Chief
Executive with a gold ball, which his Honor promptly sent hurtling
toward the plate.  His arm was not in good shape, however, and the
gold ball crossed the batting station still a ball.  Which goes to
show that a ball is not a ball when it is a strike! But, again, the
gold ball was a ball, however, consequently and nevertheless.'


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 27 18:12:34 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:12:34 -0400
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020626224327.011a6008@199.93.70.138>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.141234.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:53 PM -0400 6/26/02, Scott Sadowsky wrote:
>On 6/26/2002 22:38, Dale Coye wrote the following:
>
>>Bible names maintain the schwa-- Solomon, Simeon, Gideon,  except for
>>Lebanon (though Lebanon, NY in Madison Co. again shows schwa for older
>>speakers).
>
>FWIW, Mt. Lebanon, PA is pronounced ['lEb at nIn] or ['lEb at n@n] by the
>natives.  Anything else marks you as an out-of-towner.  The country of
>Lebanon is pronounced canonically, as ['lEb at nan].
>

Two (and a half) questions:

(1)  Are we positive that it's a question of maintaining the schwa in
these words/names, as opposed to an [a] gradually weakening to a
schwa?

(2)a.  Is Lebanon, Indiana also pronounced with a schwa (or barred i)
locally?  I don't know if Dale's statement implies that the Indiana
town always has a full secondary-stressed [a].
      b.  Does anyone know if Americans in Lebanon (the country in the
Levant), such as the ones at the American university in Beirut
(either now, if it still exists, or back when it did, before the
unpleasantness a while back) pronounce the country's name with a
schwa?

Of course, the questions in (2) can equally be taken as asking
whether the final syllable in these town names is unstressed locally.

larry


From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Jun 27 18:25:54 2002
From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:25:54 -0500
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <p04320403b94104236440@[130.132.245.161]>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.132554.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 6/27/02 1:12 PM, Laurence Horn at laurence.horn at YALE.EDU wrote:

> At 10:53 PM -0400 6/26/02, Scott Sadowsky wrote:
>> On 6/26/2002 22:38, Dale Coye wrote the following:
>>
>>> Bible names maintain the schwa-- Solomon, Simeon, Gideon,  except for
>>> Lebanon (though Lebanon, NY in Madison Co. again shows schwa for older
>>> speakers).
>>
>> FWIW, Mt. Lebanon, PA is pronounced ['lEb at nIn] or ['lEb at n@n] by the
>> natives.  Anything else marks you as an out-of-towner.  The country of
>> Lebanon is pronounced canonically, as ['lEb at nan].
>>
>
> Two (and a half) questions:
>
> (1)  Are we positive that it's a question of maintaining the schwa in
> these words/names, as opposed to an [a] gradually weakening to a
> schwa?

Bingo!
>
> (2)a.  Is Lebanon, Indiana also pronounced with a schwa (or barred i)
> locally?  I don't know if Dale's statement implies that the Indiana
> town always has a full secondary-stressed [a].

I've heard Tennesseans say a schwa for the town in their state.  Would the
"-an speakers" maintain the "full vowel" when the name of the state follows
-- "Lebanon, Indiana"?

Or in "Lebanon is a pretty town"? as opposed to "I live in Labanon"?
Same for Oregon, Illinois.

> b.  Does anyone know if Americans in Lebanon (the country in the
> Levant), such as the ones at the American university in Beirut
> (either now, if it still exists, or back when it did, before the
> unpleasantness a while back) pronounce the country's name with a
> schwa?

As in this web site -- "Welcome to Banque du Liban"?
>
> Of course, the questions in (2) can equally be taken as asking
> whether the final syllable in these town names is unstressed locally.
>
> larry
>


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Thu Jun 27 18:35:19 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:35:19 -0700
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <p04320403b94104236440@[130.132.245.161]>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.113519.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> Two (and a half) questions:
>
> (2)a.  Is Lebanon, Indiana also pronounced with a schwa (or barred i)
> locally?  I don't know if Dale's statement implies that the Indiana
> town always has a full secondary-stressed [a].

There is also a Lebanon, Oregon, which I've heard pronounced with both a
schwa or an [a] by different, presumably native Oregonian speakers. Maybe
Peter McGraw has noticed a more recent trend one way or the other.

>       b.  Does anyone know if Americans in Lebanon (the country in the
> Levant), such as the ones at the American university in Beirut
> (either now, if it still exists, or back when it did, before the
> unpleasantness a while back) pronounce the country's name with a
> schwa?

The Americans I've met who have actually been to Lebanon (admittedly not a
large number) use the [a] not the schwa for the country name.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From mkuha at BSU.EDU  Thu Jun 27 19:33:10 2002
From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:33:10 -0500
Subject: Query: British Linguistics Projects
In-Reply-To: <20020627102456.20078.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.143310.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't have any suggestions for the specific area you mention, but Wray,
Trott, and Bloomer's 1998 book "Projects in linguistics: A practical guide
to researching language" might be a good resource for students, as it tends
to target readers in England--that is, many of the examples, explanations,
and project ideas are set in a British context.

-Mai

On 6/27/02 5:24 AM, Margaret Lee wrote:

> I will teach a course in the Advanced Studies in England program in
> Bath next summer and am looking for interesting linguistics studies
> (suggested project topics) students can do related to Bath and the
> surrounding areas, suitable for a five-week course. I want students
> to closely observe British language characteristics and usage during
> their time in England. I would appreciate any suggestions offered.
>
> Thanks,
> Margaret Lee
>
> =====
> Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor - English and Linguistics
> & University Editor
> Department of English
> Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
> (757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home)
> e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu   or   mlee303 at yahoo.com


From jpparker at ISERV.NET  Thu Jun 27 23:57:14 2002
From: jpparker at ISERV.NET (jane parker)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 19:57:14 -0400
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020626224327.011a6008@199.93.70.138>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.195714.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 6/26/02 10:53 PM, Scott Sadowsky at lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG wrote:

This is also true for Lebenon IN


> On 6/26/2002 22:38, Dale Coye wrote the following:
>
>> Bible names maintain the schwa-- Solomon, Simeon, Gideon,  except for
>> Lebanon (though Lebanon, NY in Madison Co. again shows schwa for older
>> speakers).
>
> FWIW, Mt. Lebanon, PA is pronounced ['lEb at nIn] or ['lEb at n@n] by the
> natives.  Anything else marks you as an out-of-towner.  The country of
> Lebanon is pronounced canonically, as ['lEb at nan].
>
> Cheers,
> Scott
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Scott Sadowsky  --  Spanish-English / English-Spanish Translator
>
> sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org · sadowsky at bigfoot.com
> http://www.spanishtranslator.org
> _____________________________________________________________
> "Nunca me he sentido mejor sujeto que cuando he predicado."
> -- Les Luthiers
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 28 00:17:39 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:17:39 -0400
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <B9411E99.1DE0%jpparker@iserv.net>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.201739.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:57 PM -0400 6/27/02, jane parker wrote:
>on 6/26/02 10:53 PM, Scott Sadowsky at lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG wrote:
>
>This [I assume both stress reduction and shift to schwa] is also
>true for Lebenon IN
>
>
Aha!  Famiilarity breeds cntnt strikes again.  G K Zipf would be pleased.

Larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 28 05:41:03 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 01:41:03 -0400
Subject: World Cupdate;  Jo Jos, Buffalo Fries & more
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.014103.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greeting from just outside Denali.  Denali/Mount McKinley is always in the clouds and is hard to see.  I spent eight hours today to see a bear a football field away.  Tomorrow is a long driving day to Seward.

WORLD CUPDATE--CNN's "update" on the "World Cup" uses this.  Check the usual databases for other cites.

SKIJORING--Skiing with a dog.  Is that the correct spelling, or is it "skijouring"?

FLIGHTSEEING--Alaska probably gave birth to this, which is everywhere.  Still not in OED?

JO JO POTATOES--I just had some for dinner.  Called just "jo jos."  OED?  DARE?  Mariani?  I also saw this at the Fred Meyer superstore.

BUFFALO FRIES--Also at the Fred Meyer superstore.  Fried potatoes that are rounded, with some spices on them.

PERSHINGS, BISMARKS--Found in the bakery department of the huge Fred Meyer superstore.  DARE for Pershing?

TOURON--Another word for "tourist."  The only slang my Denali guide could come up with.

MELTWATER--This term is used all over Denali.  I haven't checked the revised OED "m."

OUTSIDE--My guide said that this is probably the biggest Alaskan word here.  "Outside"=Lower Forty Eight or elsewhere.

THROUGHPUT--Oil term for what goes through the Alaska pipeline.  I haven't yet checked OED.

TRIBEARATHON--Stretching, running, and ice cream eating competition, see www.cer.org.

"WE CHEAT THE OTHER GUY AND PASS THE SAVINGS ON TO YOU!"--Ad for Chilkoot Charlie's Rustic Alaskan Saloon, ALASKA VISITORS' GUIDE 2002, ANCHORAGE DAILY NEWS, pg. 47.  Seen also in other publications.

SQUAREBANKS--HDAS?  Same publication, pg. 101, col. 1:
   To be fair, Fairbanksans are almost as quick as Anchoragites to call their home "Squarebanks" (the Chamber of Commerce prefers "The Golden Heart City"), especially when a long winter is making it feel particularly small.

FISHWALK--Fish walk?  From pg. 109, col. 4:
   It also has a 250-foot calssic "fishwalk" along the Kenai River. Along a set of stairs to the river are information boards providing details on the river, salmon and the environment.
(www.soldotnachamber.com)

CHICKEN HALIBUT--From Pg. 113, col. 2:
   Fish weighing 100, 200, 300 pounds and more are not unusal in Resurrection and it surrounding water, and 25- to 35-pound halibut, called "chicken halibut," are common and considered by many to be best on the table.

ALASKAN GRABBERS--From Pg. 142 ad for The ULU Factory (www.theulufactory.com):
   Our salad/pasta grabbers are made of Birch and are sure to be a hit on your dinner table.

   Found at the Alpenglow Restaurant here:

KLONDIKE COFFEE--Yukon Jack, Barejager and coffee with whipped cream    $5.00

NORTH SLOPE--Peppermint Schnapps and hot chocolate with whipped cream     $4.50


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun 28 06:57:47 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 02:57:47 -0400
Subject: Query: Was a gold ball really thrown out to start season?
In-Reply-To: <p04310101b940f125f38a@[131.151.65.144]>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.025747.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>     What exactly is meant by a gold ball? It's not likely to have been
> solid gold.

At a guess it was gold in color, not in composition: presumably just a
baseball painted gold for the special occasion.

(Disclaimer: few US-ans can match my [blissful] ignorance of baseball lore.)

-- Doug Wilson


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 28 13:37:56 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 06:37:56 -0700
Subject: route : /rawt/ vs /ruwt/
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0206232123110.21376-100000@bast.u.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.063756.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've heard and used both pronunciations throughout my
life...prefer <root> myself (same as <ruwt>?), but it
is more context sensitive than an absolute rule...Ever
heard the song "..get your kicks on <root> 66"?  Just
doesn't work with <rawt> or <raewt>.

Reminds me of a friend from OK who kept refering to
men working a "tower".  It took me a while to figure
he was saying what I pronounce as <toor>, as in tour
of duty; the men were working a tour, a shift.



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 28 14:21:32 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 07:21:32 -0700
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020626224327.011a6008@199.93.70.138>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.072132.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And what about the pronunciation of "Lebanon baloney"?

Ed

--- Scott Sadowsky <lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG>
wrote:
> On 6/26/2002 22:38, Dale Coye wrote the following:
>
> >Bible names maintain the schwa-- Solomon, Simeon,
> Gideon,  except for
> >Lebanon (though Lebanon, NY in Madison Co. again
> shows schwa for older
> >speakers).
>
> FWIW, Mt. Lebanon, PA is pronounced ['lEb at nIn] or
> ['lEb at n@n] by the
> natives.  Anything else marks you as an
> out-of-towner.  The country of
> Lebanon is pronounced canonically, as ['lEb at nan].
>
> Cheers,
> Scott
>
>
_____________________________________________________________
> Scott Sadowsky  --  Spanish-English /
> English-Spanish Translator
>
> sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org �
> sadowsky at bigfoot.com
> http://www.spanishtranslator.org
>
_____________________________________________________________
> "Nunca me he sentido mejor sujeto que cuando he
> predicado."
>    -- Les Luthiers


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From rachel at CAL.ORG  Fri Jun 28 14:21:42 2002
From: rachel at CAL.ORG (Rachel Lunde)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:21:42 -0400
Subject: National Museum of Language Seeks Volunteers
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.102142.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The National Museum of Language is a start-up museum based in the Washington, DC, area, dedicated to educating and informing the general public about all matters related to languages and linguistics. Its focus is on language as it relates to all aspects of life, human development, and human history.

We periodically send out a call for volunteers to help us develop several projects related to the establishment of the museum. Volunteers are needed to help us in the following areas:

Curators
Collections
Exhibits
Finances
Grant writing
Publicity
Speaker series
Young Linguists Program
Web Museum

There are many levels of involvement that may assist educators and professors in fulfilling requirements for service, while working in languages and linguistics. The museum also provides an opportunity for student volunteers to gain valuable professional experience. Language professionals or non-linguists who are interested in volunteering time to a museum for language are also encouraged to contact us.

Please contact Helen Carpenter at carpenth at georgetown.edu if you are interested in volunteering or supporting the National Museum of Language by becoming a member. If you are interested in becoming involved with the Programs Committee, please contact Lauren Raivel at lauren_raivel at msn.com.

Please feel free to forward this e-mail to anyone else you think may be interested.

Thanks, and we appreciate your interest.

Helen S. Carpenter
Board of Directors
National Museum of Language
7100 Baltimore Avenue
Suite 202
College Park, MD 20740
carpenth at georgetown.edu


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 28 15:55:27 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:55:27 EDT
Subject: Query: Was a gold ball really thrown out to start season?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.115527.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/28/2002 2:58:06 AM, douglas at NB.NET writes:

<<What exactly is meant by a gold ball? It's not likely to have been
> solid gold. >>

Well, gee, I think a solid gold baseball would be a little impractical, even
in California. I recall that the "mean pin-ball" that "that deaf, dumb, and
blind kid" played in the musical TOMMY were characterized as "silver ball,"
even though they were no doubt steel--I think it is quite common in English
to use the terms "silver" and "gold" to describe the color of objects,
without any necessary implication that the objects referred to are actually
made of the rare metal--or indeed, metal at all.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 28 16:24:56 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:24:56 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.122456.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In reading Allen Walker Read's wonderful round-up on the OK corral
(Chapters 10-15 of PADS 86, hot off the press)--great infirmary
reading, as I thought--it occurred to me that his descriptions of the
"craze" among newspapers in Boston, New York, New Orleans, and the
"transmontane" press (as the area between the Alleghenies and Rockies
was known) in the late 1830's and early 1840's for abbreviations and
other "laconics" (see the quote from the Ninewah Gazette of Peru, IL
on p. 140) very closely prefigures traits of the current texting
(txting) language popularized through SMS (short message service,
involving the video display space on cell phones now commonly used in
Europe and East Asia and perhaps making inroads in the US, to the
horror of English teachers and other purists).  I recall hearing a
couple of papers on some of the truncations and initialisms involved,
and checked the web, and my sense is that while this trend began with
e-mail messages (ROTFL and its ilk)--or even earlier in service lingo
(FUBAR, SNAFU)--and was accelerated by habits of AIM [AOL instant
messaging] users (including my undergraduates, it appears, and not
just my teenage kids) it's really picked up with the constraints
imposed by the tiny message space available for txt.  (They don't
call it SMS for 0.)

The AWR data involves "cabalistic" readings (as critics complained at
the time), in that the functions of laconics were not just to save
space but to create and ratify an in-group and confuse outsiders (who
often expressed their irritation with just this fact).  These factors
led to the use of intentionally misrepresented or pseudo-illiterate
initialisms, e.g. K.Y. 'no use', K.G. 'no go', O.W. 'oll wright', and
of course O.K. itself 'oll korrect'.  The appearance of "the three
R's" (for reading, 'ritin, and 'rithmetic) stems from this period.  A
lot of the true initialisms also involved some cabalistic
knowledge--O.F.M. 'our first men', and so on.  (Not to mention nonce
initialisms, including those appearing in print with glosses
attached.)  And then there are the intermediate cases--N.S. for 'nuff
said', ODV 'eau de vie' (later reinterpreted as 'oll done vith', for
when your glass is empty).  There are also other truncations/laconics
that don't involve initialisms as such, e.g. XLNC 'excellence'.  From
a poem reprinted in 1832, "To Miss Catherine Jay, of Utica":

Oh KTJ is far B4
All other maids IC;
Her XLNC I adore
As a lovely NTT.

And then of course there are the waggish unpackings of initialisms,
as in our own bacronyms (FORD = 'found on road dead', PH.D. 'piled
higher and deeper), including the degrees explicated in 1831:
"A.B.--Apt to Blunder", "LL.D.--Licensed to Die Damnably",
"M.D.--Maker of Dead men").

But what struck me in reading this are the parallels (and to some
degree non-parallels) with our own (or our own children's) use of
laconics in AIM/SMS lingo.  Some examples, off the cuff, of what one
site cleverly describes as "Gen-TXT" usage, but as is also noted
elsewhere, has now extended to the business world, electronic crawls,
communications at airports, police communications, etc.:

RU 'are you'
OIC 'Oh, I see'
BBL 'be back later'
PLZ
XLNT
NE
INO 'I know'

--RUOK?  'are you OK?'
--Y NY?    'yes, and you?"

Note the use of "inaccurate" initialisms, reinventing the practice of
the 1830's, and the mixture of initialisms, near-initialisms, and
simple truncations, often involving vowel deletion (cf. the 1832
poet's XLNC vs. the modern XLNT, or the relation of our kids' INO,
OIC, etc. and our great(N)-grandparents' usas as detailed by AWR.
One interesting difference is in the alphanumeric mixing of today--

CUL8R
F2T?  'free to talk'
B4N
2MORO
W84ME 'wait for me'
NE1
3SUM
J4F 'just for fun'

--which is almost unparalleled in the citations from c. 1840 that I
reviewed.  Almost, because of that one use of "B4" in the KTJ poem
above.  Nor are there any proto-emoticons as far as I can tell.  Of
course if I were going to do this seriously, I'd have to track down
AWR's sources and look for myself.  (Or at least do an MoA database
search on "B4" and other likely suspects, whatever they might be.)

So, do any listees know of work anticipating what I've been burbling
on about, connecting the
c. 1840 fad/vogue/craze of initialisms with the more modern trends of
c. 2000?  Don't want to step on NE1's toes here.

larry


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 28 16:56:45 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:56:45 EDT
Subject: Query: Was a gold ball really thrown out to start season?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.125645.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

California is nicknamed the Golden State, and sometimes likes to celebrate
its Gold Rush origins, so a gold-colored ball would have been appropriately
symbolic there, and nobody would have needed to be reminded of the symbolism.
- Allan Metcalf


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Jun 28 17:00:32 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 18:00:32 +0100
Subject: An initial 4A?
In-Reply-To: <p04320405b94224f2789f@[130.132.231.242]>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.180032.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Friday, June 28, 2002 12:24 pm -0400 Laurence Horn
<laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:

> One interesting difference is in the alphanumeric mixing of today--
>
> CUL8R
> F2T?  'free to talk'
> B4N
> 2MORO
> W84ME 'wait for me'
> NE1
> 3SUM
> J4F 'just for fun'


I have the impression that some of this mixing started with the trend for
personalised license plates, esp. use of '8' as a syllable in those.

The txt stuff is rife over here, and a number of students in our historical
linguistics/history of English courses have done projects on it, although I
don't know that any have made connections between txting and pre-20th
century forms.

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 28 17:48:59 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:48:59 -0400
Subject: Query: Was a gold ball really thrown out to start season?
In-Reply-To: <172.a749129.2a4def4d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.134859.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:56 PM -0400 6/28/02, AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:
>California is nicknamed the Golden State, and sometimes likes to celebrate
>its Gold Rush origins, so a gold-colored ball would have been appropriately
>symbolic there, and nobody would have needed to be reminded of the symbolism.
>- Allan Metcalf


cf. inter alia the Golden State Warriors (Oakland), the Golden State
Freeway (LA), the California Golden Bears (Berkeley),...


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 28 17:54:13 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:54:13 EDT
Subject: An initial 4A?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.135413.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/28/02 12:24:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

> In reading Allen Walker Read's wonderful round-up on the OK corral

That was "gunfight at the OK corral", which considering the polemics I have
occasionallly seen on the subject, also seems to fit.

Seriously, you are overlooking a major source of condensed spelling, and that
is telegraphese.  Morse code requires a certain amount of time to send the
dihs and dahs for a letter, so if the telegrapher is in a hurry any
abbreviating is beneficial.

In fact telegraphers in the US (and maybe other English-speaking countries)
had the "Phillips code", which was a system of reducing words to a minimal
set of consonants (or something like that.)   "PLS" or "PLZ" for "please" is
an obvious example.

The only telegraphers I have ever seen in action have been a few ham radio
operators.  They have their own standard condensations (not always
"abbreviations").
A few:
    73    good-bye
    88    love and kisses
    DX    distance
    YL    young lady
    YF    wife (phonetic) also called XYL for "ex-YL"
    DE    from (this one is odd because it is Spanish)

Web Page http://www.metronet.com/~nmcewen/Telegraph_Talk-McClure-1902.html is
a copy of a 1902 article on telegraphy.  Just one quote:

<Begin quote>
    Expressed in print a laugh is a bald "ha ha!" that requires other words
to describe its quality.  In wire talk the same form is used, but the manner
of rendering it imparts quality to the laughter. In dot-and-dash converse, as
in speech, "ha! ha!" may give an impression of mirthlessness, of mild
amusement, or of convulsion.  The double "i," again, in wire parlance, has a
wide range of meaning according to its rendition.  A few double "i's" are
used as a prelude to a conversation, as well as to break the abruptness in
ending it.  They are also made to express doubt or acquiescence; and in any
hesitation for a word or phrase are used to preserve the continuity of a
divided sentence.  When an order is given in Morse over the wire, the
operator's acknowledgment is a ringing "ii!" which has the same significance
as a sailor's "aye, aye, sir!"
<end quote>

The above sounds like a crude ancestor of today's emoticons.

I did a Google search on "telegraphese".  After asking if I meant
"telegraphs", Google gave me 311 hits, most of which did not deal with Morse
code.  Among the Web pages were ones on aphasia, children learning to speak
Mayan, comparing English and Yinglish, and someone's criticism of Robert A.
Heinlein's writing style.

You might want to check out some of these potential threads.

One other source of "telegraphese" is newspaper headlines.  The headline
writer (generally the copy editor who handles the story) has a limited amount
of space in which s/he has to fill with large type and still produce an
accurate precis of the story.  Many collections exist of unintentionally
humorous headlines, e.g. "DRUNK GETS TWO WEEKS IN VIOLIN CASE".  Or the
Washington Post on the day Soviet Premier Andropov's death was announced,
"REAGAN TO VISIT MOSCOW ANDROPOV DEAD"

         - Jim Landau


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 28 17:56:05 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:56:05 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A?
In-Reply-To: <5144807.3234276032@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.135605.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:00 PM +0100 6/28/02, Lynne Murphy wrote:
>--On Friday, June 28, 2002 12:24 pm -0400 Laurence Horn
><laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>
>>One interesting difference is in the alphanumeric mixing of today--
>>
>>CUL8R
>>F2T?  'free to talk'
>>B4N
>>2MORO
>>W84ME 'wait for me'
>>NE1
>>3SUM
>>J4F 'just for fun'
>
>
>I have the impression that some of this mixing started with the trend for
>personalised license plates, esp. use of '8' as a syllable in those.

Thanks for the suggestion, Lynne.  Does NE1 know of any sources on
the origin of alphanumeric initialisms?

>
>The txt stuff is rife over here, and a number of students in our historical
>linguistics/history of English courses have done projects on it, although I
>don't know that any have made connections between txting and pre-20th
>century forms.
>
>Lynne

Which brings up "OK as Ur-txt" as a possible title.

larry


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 28 18:11:28 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:11:28 EDT
Subject: Non-native English?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.141128.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Somebody from the address <MikeGHRC at aol.com> keeps sending me a message
(shown below in its entirety), with an attached file. I'm afraid to open it
for fear of viruses, and I don't even know what an "IE 6.0 patch" is, but the
reason I'm writing is to ask if anyone else sees this as something that a
native speaker of English would not say. I'm not referring to the use of "a"
before a vowel (that is native to my Midwestern speech, pronounced with a
glottal stop where the "n" would go in standard speech), but rather to the
use of "would" instead of "will"--what do ADS-L-ers think?

The message:


<HEAD></HEAD>

Hi,This is a IE 6.0 patch
I hope you would like it.


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Jun 28 18:14:34 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:14:34 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.141434.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

larry writes:
>So, do any listees know of work anticipating what I've been burbling
>on about, connecting the
>c. 1840 fad/vogue/craze of initialisms with the more modern trends of
>c. 2000?  Don't want to step on NE1's toes here.
~~~~~~~~
Not me, but there is some interesting supplementary material in the chapter
on Rebuses in OUP's /The Oxford Guide toWord Games/ by Tony Augarde.
Alphanumeric rebuses seem to have been around before 1830.  Recently a sort
of message-sending  in numbers-only tiny LCD pagers has used the
rectilinear design of the numbers to advantage.  Thus 07734 turned
upside-down reads hELLO, for instance.
A. Murie


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Fri Jun 28 18:20:01 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:20:01 -0700
Subject: Non-native English?
In-Reply-To: <15c.f91fcb0.2a4e00d0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.112001.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I agree that it sounds non-native. And, I wouldn't open it up either!

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> Somebody from the address <MikeGHRC at aol.com> keeps sending me a message
> (shown below in its entirety), with an attached file. I'm afraid to open it
> for fear of viruses, and I don't even know what an "IE 6.0 patch" is, but the
> reason I'm writing is to ask if anyone else sees this as something that a
> native speaker of English would not say. I'm not referring to the use of "a"
> before a vowel (that is native to my Midwestern speech, pronounced with a
> glottal stop where the "n" would go in standard speech), but rather to the
> use of "would" instead of "will"--what do ADS-L-ers think?
>
> The message:
>
>
> <HEAD></HEAD>
>
> Hi,This is a IE 6.0 patch
> I hope you would like it.
>


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 28 18:27:33 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:27:33 -0400
Subject: Non-native English?
In-Reply-To: <15c.f91fcb0.2a4e00d0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.142733.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RonButters at AOL.COM said:
>Somebody from the address <MikeGHRC at aol.com> keeps sending me a message
>(shown below in its entirety), with an attached file. I'm afraid to open it
>for fear of viruses, and I don't even know what an "IE 6.0 patch" is, but the
>reason I'm writing is to ask if anyone else sees this as something that a
>native speaker of English would not say. I'm not referring to the use of "a"
>before a vowel (that is native to my Midwestern speech, pronounced with a
>glottal stop where the "n" would go in standard speech), but rather to the
>use of "would" instead of "will"--what do ADS-L-ers think?
>
>The message:
>
>
><HEAD></HEAD>
>
>Hi,This is a IE 6.0 patch
>I hope you would like it.

This is a virus, no question. The patch in question would install the
virus on your system so that it would get sent to still more people,
perhaps purporting to be from you.

My impression from what little computer security reading I do is that
a lot of these viruses are produced by teenagers in Asia and Eastern
Europe, which would account for the off feel of the sentence.

Alice


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 28 18:28:49 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:28:49 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
In-Reply-To: <l03130301b9424f278cf6@[12.107.144.165]>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.142849.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

sagehen said:
>larry writes:
>>So, do any listees know of work anticipating what I've been burbling
>>on about, connecting the
>>c. 1840 fad/vogue/craze of initialisms with the more modern trends of
>>c. 2000?  Don't want to step on NE1's toes here.
>~~~~~~~~
>Not me, but there is some interesting supplementary material in the chapter
>on Rebuses in OUP's /The Oxford Guide toWord Games/ by Tony Augarde.
>Alphanumeric rebuses seem to have been around before 1830.  Recently a sort
>of message-sending  in numbers-only tiny LCD pagers has used the
>rectilinear design of the numbers to advantage.  Thus 07734 turned
>upside-down reads hELLO, for instance.

I remember doing "cool tricks" like that with calculators in the early 70s.

Alice


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 28 18:32:18 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:32:18 EDT
Subject: Non-native English?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.143218.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/28/02 2:12:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
RonButters at AOL.COM writes:

> Hi,This is a IE 6.0 patch
>  I hope you would like it.

Do NOT open the file.  "IE" stands for "Internet Explorer", and NOBODY would
send out patches for IE unsolicitated.  The sender is probably malicious.

(I have already reported this apparently-malicious e-mail to AOL.  You might
want to do the same---screen names TOSEMAIL1 and POSTMASTER)

In the past few days I have received half a dozen e-mails from addresses I
never heard of, each one with a file attached.  I have reported all of them
to my ISP (AOL).
They appear to be the work of native Spanish speakers, since the file names
are such things as "buscar.zip" (buscar = to search for) and the return
addresses include such things as atencion at conade.gob.mx ("attention at
something something Mexico").

     - Jim Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 28 18:39:31 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:39:31 EDT
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.143931.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/28/02 2:12:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes:

> Recently a sort
>  of message-sending  in numbers-only tiny LCD pagers has used the
>  rectilinear design of the numbers to advantage.  Thus 07734 turned
>  upside-down reads hELLO, for instance.

You have some awfully polite e-correspondents.  Turning 7734 upside down to
read "hELL" has been around since long before LCD's were invented.


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Jun 28 18:50:20 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 19:50:20 +0100
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
In-Reply-To: <1aa.45419d5.2a4e0763@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.195020.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Friday, June 28, 2002 2:39 pm +0000 "James A. Landau"
<JJJRLandau at AOL.COM> wrote:

> You have some awfully polite e-correspondents.  Turning 7734 upside down
> to read "hELL" has been around since long before LCD's were invented.

Indeed, when I was in the 3rd grade, a classmate (I'm tempted to name and
shame!) told me to write down her phone number, 7734 (in my town, you
didn't have to tell people the prefix, since there was only one).  So I
did, on my spelling book, and she turned it upside down and said "look, you
wrote a bad word, I'm going to go tell Mrs Nelson".   Once she got to the
teacher's desk, she merely asked to go to the lavatory, but I nearly died
of anxiety-induced heart attack in those few seconds.

Scarred for life,
Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 28 19:26:47 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 15:26:47 EDT
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.152647.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/28/2002 2:50:35 PM, lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK writes:

<< Indeed, when I was in the 3rd grade, a classmate (I'm tempted to name and
shame!) told me to write down her phone number, 7734 (in my town, you
didn't have to tell people the prefix, since there was only one).  So I
did, on my spelling book, and she turned it upside down and said "look, you
wrote a bad word, I'm going to go tell Mrs Nelson".   Once she got to the
teacher's desk, she merely asked to go to the lavatory, but I nearly died
of anxiety-induced heart attack in those few seconds. >>

In my high-school in the 1950s, one of the cheers was "Wilson, Wilson [name
of opposing team] go to 7-7-3-4-upside down"! I know, it is hard to believe
that the USA was THAT euphemistic less than 50 years ago.


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Jun 28 19:53:48 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 20:53:48 +0100
Subject: Non-native English?
In-Reply-To: <15c.f91fcb0.2a4e00d0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.205348.0100.>

> Somebody from the address <MikeGHRC at aol.com> keeps sending me a
> message (shown below in its entirety), with an attached file. I'm
> afraid to open it for fear of viruses, and I don't even know what
> an "IE 6.0 patch" is, but the reason I'm writing is to ask if
> anyone else sees this as something that a native speaker of English
> would not say.

The message, with its attached file, is an example of one type of a
nasty virus (strictly a trojan) called Klez. The message sizes are
typically about 130Kb, so it's a real hog on bandwidth. The size is
accounted for by its having its own mail server built in.

It has the particularly nasty habit not only of sending itself to all
the names in your address book (if you use MS Outlook) but of sending
such messages faked up to look as though they come from people other
than yourself. I get about 20 copies a day from infected subscribers,
plus several bounces from systems which think I have sent copies out.
(So the person at AOL may not in fact be the sender.)

The various subject lines and text messages in it are drawn from a
small thesaurus, which do seem to have been written by a non-native
speaker of English.

Do everything possible to stop it from infecting your system, mainly
by not clicking on the attachment. It can be cleaned by standard anti-
virus software programs, if their data files are up-to-date.


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 28 20:14:53 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 16:14:53 -0400
Subject: FW: Query: Was a gold ball really thrown out to start season?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.161453.0400.>

What Ron says below made me think of the heads of golf clubs, once made of
wood, now (in the last decade or so) made of metal.  They're called metal
woods generically, but one still speaks of a 3-wood or a fairway wood,
despite the metal content.

Frank Abate

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of RonButters at AOL.COM
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 11:55 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Query: Was a gold ball really thrown out to start season?


In a message dated 6/28/2002 2:58:06 AM, douglas at NB.NET writes:

<<What exactly is meant by a gold ball? It's not likely to have been
> solid gold. >>

Well, gee, I think a solid gold baseball would be a little impractical, even
in California. I recall that the "mean pin-ball" that "that deaf, dumb, and
blind kid" played in the musical TOMMY were characterized as "silver ball,"
even though they were no doubt steel--I think it is quite common in English
to use the terms "silver" and "gold" to describe the color of objects,
without any necessary implication that the objects referred to are actually
made of the rare metal--or indeed, metal at all.


From maynor at RA.MSSTATE.EDU  Fri Jun 28 21:29:37 2002
From: maynor at RA.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 16:29:37 -0500
Subject: Job Ad (TESOL)
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.162937.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

******************************
Mississippi SU, Drawer E, Mississippi State, MS   39762

One-year replacement position beginning August 16, 2002, and ending May
15, 2003, as Visiting Assistant Professor in TESOL. Ph.D. in English or
linguistics with emphasis in TESOL required.  Ability to teach a course in
modern grammar/syntax is a must.  Salary will be competitive.  Mississippi
State University is a Carnegie I institution with approximately 15,000
students on the main campus.  To apply, please send a letter and a c.v. to
arrive by July 20, 2002. Review of applications will begin immediately and
will continue until the position is filled.  Mississippi State University
is an AA/EO employer.

Matthew Little, Head
******************************


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 28 21:51:37 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 17:51:37 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A?
In-Reply-To: <128.1394bc13.2a4dfcc5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.175137.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Jim.  That's another great area to look at.  And I should
have remembered about the "Gunfight" as opposed to "Roundup"...

>In a message dated 6/28/02 12:24:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
>  > In reading Allen Walker Read's wonderful round-up on the OK corral
>
>That was "gunfight at the OK corral", which considering the polemics I have
>occasionallly seen on the subject, also seems to fit.
>

  even if the last time I went through this somewhere I checked google
and found that several other people had the same misinformed
recollection.  Almost qualifies as a genuine folk movie title.  As
for the telegraphese, I knew about the reduction in number of words
(to save money) but not in their size (to save time).

>One other source of "telegraphese" is newspaper headlines.  The headline
>writer (generally the copy editor who handles the story) has a limited amount
>of space in which s/he has to fill with large type and still produce an
>accurate precis of the story.  Many collections exist of unintentionally
>humorous headlines, e.g. "DRUNK GETS TWO WEEKS IN VIOLIN CASE".  Or the
>Washington Post on the day Soviet Premier Andropov's death was announced,
>"REAGAN TO VISIT MOSCOW ANDROPOV DEAD"
>
One locus classicus for telegraphese is the (purported?  apocryphal?)
exchange between Cary Grant, on location somewhere in Europe, and a
flack of some sort:

Flack:  HOW OLD CARY GRANT
CG:     OLD CARY GRANT FINE    HOW YOU

There have been some excellent collections of ambiguous headlines, as
you say.  My favorite is "Squad Helps Dog Bite Victim, and other
flubs from the nation's press", released by Dolphin Books in 1980.

Larry


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sat Jun 29 01:07:46 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 21:07:46 -0400
Subject: Non-native English?
In-Reply-To: <3D1CCCDC.24514.14296B7@localhost>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.210746.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, Michael Quinion wrote:

#The message, with its attached file, is an example of one type of a
#nasty virus (strictly a trojan) called Klez. The message sizes are
#typically about 130Kb, so it's a real hog on bandwidth. The size is
#accounted for by its having its own mail server built in.
#
#It has the particularly nasty habit not only of sending itself to all
#the names in your address book (if you use MS Outlook) but of sending
#such messages faked up to look as though they come from people other
#than yourself. I get about 20 copies a day from infected subscribers,
#plus several bounces from systems which think I have sent copies out.
#(So the person at AOL may not in fact be the sender.)

Indeed. I have been getting reports recently of Klez-infected mail,
allegedly from me, to several lists I'm on and addresses I've never
heard of.  Since my stone-age email access makes this virtually
impossible (as confirmed by my ISP), it seems certain that Klez has
lifted my address from someone else's address book (or plural) and
spoofed it as the sender.

-- Mark A. Mandel, who nevertheless screened his windows machine for
   Klez; it came up clean, "no infected files found"


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Sat Jun 29 01:58:50 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 20:58:50 -0500
Subject: Non-native English?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.205850.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jim Landau said:

"Do NOT open the file.  "IE" stands for "Internet Explorer", and NOBODY would
send out patches for IE unsolicitated.  "

I was intrigued by "unsolicitated" where I would have 'unsolicited'. A quick google search suggests 'unsolicitate' is fairly common especially in this context of spamming.
Is this another specialized usage for a backformation like commentate (cf. comment)?
  


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 29 03:19:51 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 23:19:51 -0400
Subject: MRE; Near Bear
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.231951.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Seward, Alaska.  I just had a pleasant, TEN HOUR bus trip.

MRE--Meals ready to eat.  Climbers like 'em.  OED?  The OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD?  "MRE" wasn't even explained on the tourist sign.

NEAR BEAR--Not "near beer."  "Near Bear" experience.  Make lots of noise.

SNOW MACHINES--Other states call 'em snowmobiles, but not Alaska.

HIGH MARKING--Taking your snow machine as high up a mountain as you can.  Highly dangerous.  You can get killed in an avalanche of your own making.

OUTHOUSE FLOWER--A chocolate lilly.  They smell.

SLIME LINE--The line for cleaning fish.

COMBAT FISHING--A term for those sights of rows and rows for fishermen.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 29 03:27:52 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 23:27:52 -0400
Subject: Fauxhawk (Fake Mohawk)
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.232752.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   USA TODAY (Thursday) did an article on the Mohawk.  The story mentioned the "fauxhawk" that is now popular.  There is a GQ special magazine issue on men's hairstyles.
   "Mull it" over.


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun 29 04:45:47 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 00:45:47 -0400
Subject: new website about Pittsburgh speech
In-Reply-To: <2973522522.1025175738@BP245DNOMAD-2.HSS.CMU.EDU>
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.004547.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From this Web-site (http://english.cmu.edu/pittsburghspeech/):

<<Many words that are in widespread use throughout the U.S. have
African-American origins. "Jazz" is one example.>>

I believe the example is false, or at least not verifiable. I think some
legitimate generally-accepted African derivations (not just
"African-American" but presumably via African-Americans) can be cited:
"okra", "gumbo", "goober", "voodoo", "buckra", probably some better ones
which I haven't thought of.

-- Doug Wilson


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Jun 29 05:24:47 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 22:24:47 -0700
Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.222447.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One of the problems in trying to use English orthographic re-spellings to
indicate pronunciation is that regional pronunciations vary considerably,
and of course there is considerable difference cross-linguistically in the
pronunciation values attached to particular letters or combinations. This
is why the International Phonetic Association was formed in the 19th c.,
and why linguists use more-or-less consistent transcriptions to represent
pronunciations. Americans for over 150 years have been shielded by
dictionary-makers from confronting and learning a consistent phonemic
representation, but British dictionaries have for some time utilized a
version of the IPA system, and presumably British school-children learn
this system, and know how to interpret it in using a dictionary. When I
taught in Taiwan 30 years ago, I found that even 8th graders who were
studying English as a foreign language, and struggling with the very
concept of an alphabetic system for writing the language, were also
expected to learn a "broad" IPA phonemic transcription at the same time.
American innocence in this area, even after over 50 years of efforts by
linguists, remains regrettable, and a reflection on our educational
system.

        Representing the different pronunciations of <route> as "root" and
"rowt" runs afoul of the problem that the word <root> can be pronounced to
rhyme with <foot> or <boot>, and the respelling "rowt" can be interpreted
as reflecting the vowel of <rote> or of <rout>. A phonemic transcription
of /ruwt/ (or /ru:t/, as some might prefer) vs /rawt/ (or again, some
might aesthetically prefer /raUt/) has the value of being unambiguous and
consistent (the variant transcriptions are equally clear and consistent).

        Rudy


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Jun 29 05:29:16 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 22:29:16 -0700
Subject: Telegraphese
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.222916.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One of the classic gems of telegraphese comes from the fact that telegrams
were printed entirely in capital letters, erasing the information encoded
in upper vs lower case. A famous Chinese linguist at UC Berkeley, Y.R.
Chao, and his wife were coming to the U of Chicago by train for a visit,
and sent word ahead by telegram to the linguist who was to meet their
train:

        CHAOS ARRIVING AT 5:00.


        Rudy


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 29 06:10:42 2002
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 02:10:42 EDT
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.021042.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Two things:

Concerning calculators, my favorite calculator trick was always:
1 girl, takes 16 guys, and does 69, times 3.  What is she? (11669x3)= 35007
(loose!, ha! Ha! oh, fifth grade humor is still funny!).  There were others,
one ended with 58008, which was supposed to be "boobs", but I don't remember
them.

Concerning txting shortcuts, either the chinese or japanese speaking students
I was in class with about 2 years ago mentioned that in their e-mails, 881
was used as an ending.  Regretfully, I'm not versed on either language, but
in one of them, pronouncing the numbers gives you something that sounds very
much like "bye-bye" (or, I guess "buh-bye").

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham,
In Transition...


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sat Jun 29 10:49:04 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 06:49:04 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
In-Reply-To: <165.f6f7bd4.2a4ea962@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.064904.0400.>

> Concerning txting shortcuts, either the chinese or japanese speaking students
> I was in class with about 2 years ago mentioned that in their e-mails, 881
> was used as an ending.  Regretfully, I'm not versed on either language, but
> in one of them, pronouncing the numbers gives you something that sounds very
> much like "bye-bye" (or, I guess "buh-bye").

Are you sure that wasn't 733t-speak (aka leet-speak or even more plainly,
elite-speak, used by script kiddies and hacker wannabes)? In 733t-speak,
numbers and letter are often transposed based upon their shape. Capital Bs
and 8s, for example, and the number 1 and the capital letter I. So 881 might
be a version of BBI which might be pronounced bee-bee-eye or bee-bye and
mean "buh-bye."

It's not altogether that transparent. My favorite phrase to see in
733t-speak, which always makes me laugh:

"H4 H4 DOOD! PH33R M3! I OWN JOO!"

--

Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
http://www.worldnewyork.org/


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun 29 10:53:46 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 06:53:46 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
In-Reply-To: <165.f6f7bd4.2a4ea962@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.065346.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... in their e-mails, 881 was used as an ending.  ... pronouncing the
>numbers gives you something that sounds very much like "bye-bye" (or, I
>guess "buh-bye").

"Ba ba yi" in Chinese I think: /babai/ or close enough, ignoring tone.

Here is a list of these things in English and Chinese:

http://lostincolours.tripod.com/numbers/

I can't explain the Chinese ones completely. For example, "520" = "wu er
[ling?]" means "wo ai ni" = "I love you" (a very common one of course),
"530" = "wu san [ling?]" means "wo xiang ni" = "I miss you", etc., so
apparently these are at least partly phonetic (allowing a lot of leeway),
but maybe I'm reading the zero wrong. Some of the translations are opaque
to me, for that matter. I hope somebody will fill me/us in. "881" is
'translated' here as "bai bai", phonetic for "bye-bye" although I'm pretty
sure the numbers are derived from "ba ba yi". Note "8084" which may be
orthographic (= "BABY"), 'translated' as "bao bei" (lit., "precious
object", orig. "precious shell" I think) = "sweetheart" or the
coincidentally phonetically felicitous world-English "baby".

There are larger lists of these Chinese codes on the Web. Somewhere I read
that the #520 bus in Taipei was specially decorated for Valentine's Day.

The English codes on this page are mostly orthographically based, I think,
with numbers which resemble the letters (again, with a lot of leeway). I
wonder whether these are English codes used specifically by Chinese, or
whether they are US-an or world-English: "I sorry", "I marry you" seem a
little awkward to me; as for the "booty call", hmmm.

-- Doug Wilson


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 29 13:08:37 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:08:37 EDT
Subject: MRE; Near Bear
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.090837.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/28/2002 11:21:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

> MRE--Meals ready to eat.  Climbers like 'em.  OED?  The OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA
> OF AMERICAN FOOD?  "MRE" wasn't even explained on the tourist sign.

Developed by DOD to replace the old C-ration and other portable foods for
soldiers.  The acronym came to public attention during Desert Shield/Desert
Storn.  Often "backronymed" to mean "meals refused by Ethiopians" or "meals
refused by everyone".

         - Jim Landau


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 29 13:46:06 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:46:06 -0400
Subject: new website about Pittsburgh speech
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020629003516.049c4ec0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.094606.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:45 AM -0400 6/29/02, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>From this Web-site (http://english.cmu.edu/pittsburghspeech/):
>
><<Many words that are in widespread use throughout the U.S. have
>African-American origins. "Jazz" is one example.>>
>
>I believe the example is false, or at least not verifiable.

My impression, based on Barry's, Jerry's, and others' posts here over
the last few years, is that "false" is closer than just "not
verifiable", given the San Francisco baseball connection established
by them.  Nevertheless, as Allen Walker Read would put it, the
TRAJECTORY, if not the ORIGIN, of the word has rich African-American
(though not directly African) inspiration.  He stresses the dangers
of oversimpifying the notion of etymology, and that line is
especially relevant to such a rich domain.  (Didn't we choose "jazz"
as WOTC?)

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 29 14:18:11 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:18:11 -0400
Subject: re Jack Buck
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.101811.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Confirmation of Alice's speculation:



Buck's call of Ozzie Smith's 1985 NLCS home run against the Dodgers
is often cited as an exemplar of his work. ESPN.com recently provided
a chance to listen to Buck calling Smith's home run. While the "Go
crazy!" part of that excerpt remains the most famous...

--Remembering
by Josh Paley
(from baseballprospectus.com)


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 29 15:50:27 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 11:50:27 EDT
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.115027.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/29/2002 6:49:38 AM, gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes:

<< It's not altogether that transparent. My favorite phrase to see in
733t-speak, which always makes me laugh:

"H4 H4 DOOD! PH33R M3! I OWN JOO!" >>

Not transparent at all! Do I needd to know Chinese to get it? Will somebody
please translate?


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Jun 29 16:09:27 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:09:27 -0700
Subject: MRE; Near Bear
In-Reply-To: <e.21204afb.2a4f0b55@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.090927.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Developed by DOD to replace the old C-ration and other
> portable foods for soldiers.  The acronym came to
> public attention during Desert Shield/Desert Storn.
> Often "backronymed" to mean "meals refused by
> Ethiopians" or "meals refused by everyone".

MREs made their appearance in the early '80s (probably even late-70s given
how long DoD takes to develop things)--I ate my first one in 1984. My ROTC
unit in Pennsylvania was still using the old C-rations. When I spent the
summer of '84 at Fort Bragg, I had my first MRE--by that time the old
C-rations were gone from the regular Army. The first ones were really awful;
since then the menu selection has improved considerably and some of them are
actually quite good. The "meals rejected by Ethiopia" name stems from the
famines (remember Band-Aid and Live-Aid?) of the mid-80s and refers to the
poor quality of the early MREs.

Technically, MREs are "C-rations," although that name came to be
specifically associated with the older, canned individual meals in common
soldier parlance (MREs come in plastic packets and are often freeze-dried or
vacuum-packed). US Army field rations are either A, B, or C. A is fresh, hot
food; real eggs for breakfast (cooked to order if you had a good mess
sergeant), fresh vegetables, salad, etc. B rations are hot, but not fresh;
e.g., powdered eggs for breakfast. C are the individually packed meals that
don't require cooks or KP. A typical meal schedule for a training day is
A-C-A, hot breakfast and dinner with MREs for lunch. (The "C" in C-rations
does not stand for "canned" as many think.)

When I was leaving the Army in 1989, they were experimenting with
"T-rations." These were group, heat-and-serve meals in aluminium foil
trays--no cooks required. Each tray (hence the T in the name), were designed
to feed, IIRC, 12 soldiers. They were utterly inedible, unfit for human
consumption. They also came in really bizarre menu combinations. One
breakfast menu contained a tray of cherry of pie filling, no pie just the
filling! The only saving grace was that they came with copious quantities of
bread, peanut butter, and jelly. On days when we were scheduled to have
"T-rats" for breakfast and dinner (in place of A or B rations), we ate PB&Js
or pogey-bait bought at the PX. I don't know what happened to T-rats as I
left the army and never encountered them in civilian life. If they're still
around, they've probably improved in quality like MREs did.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Jun 29 16:25:30 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:25:30 -0700
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
In-Reply-To: <de.2942454e.2a4f3143@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.092530.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> << It's not altogether that transparent. My favorite phrase to see in
> 733t-speak, which always makes me laugh:
>
> "H4 H4 DOOD! PH33R M3! I OWN JOO!" >>
>
> Not transparent at all! Do I needd to know Chinese to get it?
> Will somebody
> please translate?

"Ha Ha dude! Fear me! I own you!"


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Jun 29 17:06:24 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 12:06:24 -0500
Subject: Query: "ground-rent man" (baseball, 1908)
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.120624.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   First, my thanx for clarifying the throwing out of a gold baseball
to start the 1913 season of the San Francisco Seals. Yes, not only is
California the Golden State, but I found a specific reference to San
Francisco as the Golden City. Sutter's Mill (where gold was
discovered in 1848) was somewhere near modern-day San Francisco,
although I'm not sure just of the exact location.

    I now have a new query: "ground-rent man" in a baseball context.
The newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_ present the following item,

>    April 4, 1913, p.20/3; 'Birthday Extra.  Congratulations To Tris
>Speaker'; 'He became a professional ball player in 1906, when he
>joined the Cleburne, Tex., team.  In 1907 he played with the Houston
>team.  At the close of the season he was purchased by [the] Boston
>[Red Sox] and turned over to Little Rock the following spring as
>ground-rent man, the Red Sox having trained on the Little Rock
>grounds.'


     What is the meaning of "ground-rent man" here?  OED gives two
definitions for "ground-rent" (presented right after my  signoff),
but neither one seems appropriate.  Any help would be much
appreciated.

Gerald Cohen


(OED, "ground-rent"):
     The rent paid to the owner of land which is let for building
upon. Also U.S. (see quot. 1856).

   1667 PRIMATT City & C. Build. 35 Fifty pounds per ann. is but a
reasonable ground-rent for a House that will cost five
hundred pounds..and yield one hundred pounds per annum. 1682 N. O.
Boileau's Lutrin IV. 292 Fifty Marks a year in
Ground-Rents. 1701 Lond. Gaz. No. 3712/4 The Ground Rent [is] but
10s. per Annum. 1776 ADAM SMITH W.N. V. ii.
(1869) II. 436 Ground rents are a still more proper subject of
taxation than the rent of houses. 1834 West Ind. Sketch Bk.
II. 158 A great convenience..to the tenants, in all questions of
ground-rent. 1856 BOUVIER Law Dict., Ground rent, in
Pennsylvania this term is used to signify a perpetual rent issuing
out of some real estate. 1863 FAWCETT Pol. Econ. II. vii.
(1876) 621 The occupier of a house pays a ground-rent to the owner of the land.


     b. A piece of land rented for building on. Obs.

   1714 GAY Shepherd's Week, Proeme, As a London mason, who
calculateth his work for a term of years, when he
buildeth with old materials upon a ground-rent that is not his own,
which soon turneth to rubbish and ruins.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 29 19:40:07 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:40:07 EDT
Subject: Query: "ground-rent man" (baseball, 1908)
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.154007.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/29/2002 2:52:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gcohen at UMR.EDU writes:

> >    April 4, 1913, p.20/3; 'Birthday Extra.  Congratulations To Tris
>  >Speaker'; 'He became a professional ball player in 1906, when he
>  >joined the Cleburne, Tex., team.  In 1907 he played with the Houston
>  >team.  At the close of the season he was purchased by [the] Boston
>  >[Red Sox] and turned over to Little Rock the following spring as
>  >ground-rent man, the Red Sox having trained on the Little Rock
>  >grounds.'

The meaning seems clear to me.  Tris Speaker was turned over to the Little
Rock franchise as payment to Little Rock for letting the Red Sox train on
their grounds.    However invented the phrase "ground-rent man" was probably
not a real estate agent and used the term "ground-rent" under the impression
it meant "rent for using the grounds" as opposed to rent for an apartment,
lease payments for equipment, etc.

I bet the Red Sox are still kicking themselves for, uh, selling Mr. Speaker
down the river.

Maryland, so I was told by a Maryland real estate, uh, speculator (she and
her family bought up low-priced properties and rented them out, i.e. they
were to some degree "slumlords" ) is the only state to have the old-style
"ground rents."  In Maryland you can buy a piece of property by setting up a
ground rent as a sort of permanent mortgage---you agree to pay $x per month
in perpetuity.  She owned several such ground rents.  I told her she was an
authentic feudal lord, or lady.

     - Jim Landau


From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM  Sat Jun 29 20:54:59 2002
From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:54:59 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.165459.0400.TRANSLATION@BILLIONBRIDGES.COM>

> Here is a list of these things in English and Chinese:
>
> http://lostincolours.tripod.com/numbers/
>
> I can't explain the Chinese ones completely. For example, "520" = "wu er
> [ling?]" means "wo ai ni" = "I love you" (a very common one of course),
> "530" = "wu san [ling?]" means "wo xiang ni" = "I miss you", etc., so
> apparently these are at least partly phonetic (allowing a lot of leeway),
> but maybe I'm reading the zero wrong.

No, you're reading the zero right.  My take on this is that "ling" = "zero",
out of the Chinese numbers from 0 to 10, is the closest approximation
you can get of "ni" = "you" (not worrying about the final "ng").  For that
matter, the whole system is premised upon finding the words that most
resemble in pronunciation the numbers 0 to 10.  Some seem a bit of a
stretch to my ears, but then convention wins every time, no?

Interesting how it seems that for Chinese speakers the initials "n" and
"l" are more easily mixed up and/or interchangeable in verbal speech
than they are in English. Then again, I need to qualify that by saying that
my impression is based upon seven years of listening to and speaking with
Mandarin speakers in Taiwan, the vast majority of whom are bilingual in
Mandarin and Taiwanese.  Of course, in Taiwanese "you" is "li", which
would reinforce the appropriateness of "ling" = "you".

> Note "8084" which may be orthographic (= "BABY"), 'translated' as
> "bao bei" (lit., "precious object", orig. "precious shell" I think) =
> "sweetheart" or the coincidentally phonetically felicitous world-English
> "baby".

Must be, as "8084" = "ba ling ba si" wouldn't bring to mind "bao bei".

Don
_______________________
Don Rogalski and Toni Kuo
"A Billion Bridges"
Chinese<>English Translation Services
Tel: 905-308-9389
Fax: 801-881-0914 (24 hrs)
Web: www.billionbridges.com
Email: translation at billionbridges.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 29 21:14:42 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 17:14:42 EDT
Subject: Mountain Mothers & Moose Dropping; Tomazzo
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.171442.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Seward, Alaska.

MOOSE DROPPING--The second weekend in July, Talkeetna hosts an Annual Moose
Dropping Festival.  There are jokes and buttons throughout the festival such
as, "How high do we drop the moose??"

MOUNTAIN MOTHER--There is a Mountain Mother Contest at the Moose Dropping
Festival.  Women compete at several tasks that "mountain mothers" presumably
do.  (And to think that I'll have to miss this Talkeetna Moose
Dropping-Mountain Mother Festival.)

GLACIAL FLOUR--Finely ground rock.  Seen on a Parks sign at the Exit Glacier,
and not in OED.

TOMAZZO--At The Great American Bagel & Bakery in the Seattle airport were
signs, "Ask about our Tomazzo."  "What's a tomazzo?  A plain bagel dipped in
pizza sauce and topped with mozzarella cheese."  Original tomazzo $2.79,
Pepperoni tomazzo $3.59.  USPTO trademark records show first use of February
1996.

PROPS--Safire's column this Sunday declares that "props" is new word that's
sweeping the country.  He just heard it?  Just now?  How out of touch is he?
Not mentioned is Aretha Franklin's classic "R.E.S.P.E.C.T.," with the line
"give me my propers."  Amazing...Speaking of the TIMES, what does full text
have for General Tso?

MENUS MISC.
   From the Alaska Cadillac Cafe:

SAND DOLLARS--Smoke salmon cream cheese upon roasted rounds topped with red
onions for spice and color.
SHEEP PIZZA--Rosemary and garlic infused olive oil brushed over pizza bread
with mozzarella and parmesan cheeses--the house specialty.
Brew City Fries--(Beer-battered fries!--ed.)
Colony Cheese Fries
Brew City Onion Rings
Chili Cheese Fries
   PIZZA COMBOS:
HONOLULU PINEAPPLE
TRADITIONAL PEPPER
TRADITIONAL OLIVE SUPREME
PESTO VEGGIE
MEDITERRANEAN VEGGIE SUPREME
GREEK
CHICKEN FEATHERS
PEST CHICKEN
LITTLE ITALY
TACO
MATANUSKA SUNSET
ALASKA BACHELOR
YUKON HERDER
ALSKA BARBECUE
EURO-CANADIAN TOURIST--rosemary olive oil, Canaidan bacon and feta
CAVEMAN
ROCKY REACH
SPORTSMAN'S POINT


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 30 00:49:13 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 20:49:13 -0400
Subject: Query: "ground-rent man" (baseball, 1908)
In-Reply-To: <41.1f64e31b.2a4f6717@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.204913.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:40 PM -0400 6/29/02, James A. Landau wrote:
>In a message dated 06/29/2002 2:52:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>gcohen at UMR.EDU writes:
>
>>  >    April 4, 1913, p.20/3; 'Birthday Extra.  Congratulations To Tris
>>   >Speaker'; 'He became a professional ball player in 1906, when he
>>   >joined the Cleburne, Tex., team.  In 1907 he played with the Houston
>>   >team.  At the close of the season he was purchased by [the] Boston
>>   >[Red Sox] and turned over to Little Rock the following spring as
>>   >ground-rent man, the Red Sox having trained on the Little Rock
>>   >grounds.'
>
>The meaning seems clear to me.  Tris Speaker was turned over to the Little
>Rock franchise as payment to Little Rock for letting the Red Sox train on
>their grounds.    However invented the phrase "ground-rent man" was probably
>not a real estate agent and used the term "ground-rent" under the impression
>it meant "rent for using the grounds" as opposed to rent for an apartment,
>lease payments for equipment, etc.
>
>I bet the Red Sox are still kicking themselves for, uh, selling Mr. Speaker
>down the river.
>
Nah.  Speaker did play 7 full seasons (including some excellent ones)
with the Sawx from 1909 through 1915 before being moved to Cleveland,
which--though an obvious (little) rockhead move in retrospect, given
his superb subsequent years for the Indians, was completely
overshadowed by the matter of that other little contract transfer a
couple of years later. The legacy of the Curse of the Bambino (the
sale of Babe Ruth to the Yankees in 1920 to enable owner Harry Frazee
for 100K to finance the musical No No Nanette--please don't tell me
it's an urban legend) is the one from which the Olde Towne team has
not yet recovered.  Perhaps this is the year?   Naaaah.

larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 30 01:23:56 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 21:23:56 EDT
Subject: Sourdoughs, Alaska Strawberries, and SOS (Salmon on a Shingle)
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.212356.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ALASKA SOURDOUGH
by Ruth Allman (1905-1989--ed.)
192 pages, paperback, $10.95
Anchorage: Alaska Northwest Books
1976
Fifteen reprinting, 1999

   I don't know what the next DARE has for "sourdough."  Alaskans are
"sourdoughs."  It's also a term for someone who has "soured" on Alaska and
doesn't have the "dough" to leave.

Pg. 161:
   "Alaska Strawberries"
   The old Alaskan prospector facetiously tried to kid himself into enjoying
his monotonous diet of pay-streak bacon and beans-beans-beans.  He called
them: Alaska Strawberries. (...)
   Many a cheechako (newcomer) could not understand when they ordered _Alaska
Strawberries_, the waiter served a plate of _Beans_!
(I haven't yet checked DARE, RHHDAS, MOA databases for "Alaska
strawberry"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
LIFE'S A FISH AND THEN YOU FRY:
AN ALASKA SEAFOOD COOKBOOK
by Randy Bayliss
210 pages, paperback, $16.95
Anchorage: Alaska Nortwest Books
2002

Pg. 60:
   _S. O. S.: Salmon on a Shingle_
   This dish feeds huge quantities of folks for breakfast.  Make mass amounts
of white sauce...
(A tourist guide said that salmon is known as "the money fish"--ed.)

(OT:  Off to Valdez tomorrow.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 30 01:53:15 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 21:53:15 EDT
Subject: Telephone Tooth
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.215315.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Coming Soon: A 'Telephone Tooth' 
Fri Jun 28, 2:04 PM ET By THOMAS WAGNER, Associated Press Writer LONDON (AP) 
- Tired of losing your cell phone? (...)
        
Two British inventors unveiled a prototype of a device Friday that could 
solve those problems.

But there's a drawback — your dentist would have to install it inside one of 
your molars.

Unofficially known as the "telephone tooth," the device would allow you to 
receive phone calls, listen to music, even connect to verbal sites on the 
Internet ( <A HREF="http://rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ap/ap_on_hi_te/inlinks/*http://rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?p=%22Internet%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw">news</A> - <A HREF="http://rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ap/ap_on_hi_te/inlinks/*http://rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://www.yahoo.com">external web site</A>) without anyone nearby hearing a thing. 
(...)

So far, no company has announced it is making the device. (...)
  
However, the device, also known as the "molar mobile," does not allow people 
to talk back to callers or make outgoing calls.

Auger said the "telephone tooth" is just another device designed to help 
people better cope with existing technology: like the flight suits developed 
to allow pilots make tight turns in high-speed warplanes without blacking 
out.

The "telephone tooth" would place a small device in a person's back molar 
that includes a wireless, low-frequency receiver and a gadget that turns 
audio signals into mechanical vibrations, which would pass from the tooth 
directly to the inner ear as clear sounds.

The user also would keep a tiny device outside his body to turn the cellphone 
on and off and to program it.

On Friday, people lined up at the Science Museum to try out a prototype of 
the "telephone tooth," which is officially known as the audio tooth implant. 
The crude imitation of the device included a walkie-talkie and a plastic 
cocktail stick that users placed in their mouths...
  
(But is there a tooth fairy????--ed.)


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Sun Jun 30 04:15:16 2002
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 00:15:16 -0400
Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs. Orthographic
 respellings]
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.001516.0400.>

The point Rudy is trying to make seems to me a question of abstract vs.
concrete.

IPA is abstract, which is as it should be since it is supposed to
represent the sounds obtaining in most human languages. Abstract
representations call for the use of a key in order to make the
transition from real to unreal (or abstract) and vice versa. It serves
scholarly
purposes all right.

It seems to me it is also somewhat self-serving (and intellectually
stimulating for
what it is worth) because it has a make-work quality to it. It supports
teachers, textbooks, etc.; sorry if I sound like a patron! That is why I
lovingly refer to the COBUILD
dictionaries as "the collected teachings of the lexicographers of
Birmingham." So much time and space seems wasted.

On the other hand, the popular "phonetic" transcriptions based on
English orthography are "concrete" and represent the real world. They
have no need for a key. Having to use a key is like hiring an
interpreter who is not really needed. All that is needed is reading
knowledge at the elementary (vaguely understood as Grades 6 - 8) level,
if we can
forget for the moment about illiterate undergrads and such. It is a
process of
going from the known to the unknown, but not starting from zero
knowledge. IPA use involves learning of a higher order, but the question
is, Is it cost-effective for general (not scholarly) purposes? A side
issue is, no amount of IPA can produce
the real sounds of a language, only an abstract representation of them.
Actualization of sounds as heard is still up to the user, given the
imperfections of one's personal sound equipment. Sometimes rough
justice, as in popular phonetics, is better than justice in the
abstract.

Re "root" and "rowt" to represent <route>, I see no problem if you
consider the realities of the situation, namely, sounds in context.
Words like <bellow, blow, flow, hallow, show> normally occur at the end
of words.  If the normal pronunciation can be accepted as the regular
pattern of English orthography, then <show> and other words become the
exception. (Add also words like <acknowledge>) These, in my view, should
be dealt with separately and represented as (SHOH),(ak.NOL.ij) etc.
which are phonemically quite exact. The syllable "ak," for example,
cannot be pronounced by a sixth grader as anything but the IPA ae
digraph + k.
Being unambiguous and consistent is important, but at what price, is the
question for me.

Just a few private thoughts.

TOM PAIKEDAY,
(lexicographer who used IPA in the Sixties, IPA-cum-diacritics in the
Seventies, and now uses a popular phonetic system; cf.
www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index.htm - still in preparation, the
phonetics awaiting insertion)

P.S. I am still casting about for printable symbols that are compatible
with
WORD or the actual processing software (Notepad?) used for text
input in website creation. Maybe there isn't any. Cf.
"lek-s&-'k�-gr&-fE" (M-W's "lexicography").
Scanning in of the text is one alternative,
I suppose). I have been using WordPerfect since before WORD came on the
scene, which is how I seem to be handicapped. Help requested.

Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>
> One of the problems in trying to use English orthographic re-spellings to
> indicate pronunciation is that regional pronunciations vary considerably,
> and of course there is considerable difference cross-linguistically in the
> pronunciation values attached to particular letters or combinations. This
> is why the International Phonetic Association was formed in the 19th c.,
> and why linguists use more-or-less consistent transcriptions to represent
> pronunciations. Americans for over 150 years have been shielded by
> dictionary-makers from confronting and learning a consistent phonemic
> representation, but British dictionaries have for some time utilized a
> version of the IPA system, and presumably British school-children learn
> this system, and know how to interpret it in using a dictionary. When I
> taught in Taiwan 30 years ago, I found that even 8th graders who were
> studying English as a foreign language, and struggling with the very
> concept of an alphabetic system for writing the language, were also
> expected to learn a "broad" IPA phonemic transcription at the same time.
> American innocence in this area, even after over 50 years of efforts by
> linguists, remains regrettable, and a reflection on our educational
> system.
>
>         Representing the different pronunciations of <route> as "root" and
> "rowt" runs afoul of the problem that the word <root> can be pronounced to
> rhyme with <foot> or <boot>, and the respelling "rowt" can be interpreted
> as reflecting the vowel of <rote> or of <rout>. A phonemic transcription
> of /ruwt/ (or /ru:t/, as some might prefer) vs /rawt/ (or again, some
> might aesthetically prefer /raUt/) has the value of being unambiguous and
> consistent (the variant transcriptions are equally clear and consistent).
>
>         Rudy


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 30 13:23:04 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 09:23:04 -0400
Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs. Orthographic
 respellings]
In-Reply-To: <3D1E85D4.FE8AB35B@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.092304.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am amazed at this very basic linguistic confusion.

Spelling (usually phonemic - and even morphophonemic, as SPE taught
us - rather than phonetic) is clearly abstract, if by that we mean
"divorced from the acoustic reality." A phonetic representation is by
contrast concrete (whether it is IPA or the broad phonetic
representation represented by respellings, e.g., "rawt" to indicate
how some folk pronounce "route" - pronounced /route/ by nobody except
those who read English but do not known it, although I had a friend
in grad school who once pronounced "creature" /kreature).

Of course almost all spelling systems have their their roots (sorry!)
in "sound," but they almost certainly have their roots in phonemic
(abstract) representations, not representations which represent
acoustic-articulatory reality, the goal of phonetic representations.

There is indeed a contrast here (and I do not want o suggest that the
mental representations of phonemes are not "concrete" in some CogSci
way), but surely the words abstract and concrete are reversed here so
far as their ordinary meanings are concerned.

dInIs (pointing to the "spelling" of his name)

>The point Rudy is trying to make seems to me a question of abstract vs.
>concrete.
>
>IPA is abstract, which is as it should be since it is supposed to
>represent the sounds obtaining in most human languages. Abstract
>representations call for the use of a key in order to make the
>transition from real to unreal (or abstract) and vice versa. It serves
>scholarly
>purposes all right.
>
>It seems to me it is also somewhat self-serving (and intellectually
>stimulating for
>what it is worth) because it has a make-work quality to it. It supports
>teachers, textbooks, etc.; sorry if I sound like a patron! That is why I
>lovingly refer to the COBUILD
>dictionaries as "the collected teachings of the lexicographers of
>Birmingham." So much time and space seems wasted.
>
>On the other hand, the popular "phonetic" transcriptions based on
>English orthography are "concrete" and represent the real world. They
>have no need for a key. Having to use a key is like hiring an
>interpreter who is not really needed. All that is needed is reading
>knowledge at the elementary (vaguely understood as Grades 6 - 8) level,
>if we can
>forget for the moment about illiterate undergrads and such. It is a
>process of
>going from the known to the unknown, but not starting from zero
>knowledge. IPA use involves learning of a higher order, but the question
>is, Is it cost-effective for general (not scholarly) purposes? A side
>issue is, no amount of IPA can produce
>the real sounds of a language, only an abstract representation of them.
>Actualization of sounds as heard is still up to the user, given the
>imperfections of one's personal sound equipment. Sometimes rough
>justice, as in popular phonetics, is better than justice in the
>abstract.
>
>Re "root" and "rowt" to represent <route>, I see no problem if you
>consider the realities of the situation, namely, sounds in context.
>Words like <bellow, blow, flow, hallow, show> normally occur at the end
>of words.  If the normal pronunciation can be accepted as the regular
>pattern of English orthography, then <show> and other words become the
>exception. (Add also words like <acknowledge>) These, in my view, should
>be dealt with separately and represented as (SHOH),(ak.NOL.ij) etc.
>which are phonemically quite exact. The syllable "ak," for example,
>cannot be pronounced by a sixth grader as anything but the IPA ae
>digraph + k.
>Being unambiguous and consistent is important, but at what price, is the
>question for me.
>
>Just a few private thoughts.
>
>TOM PAIKEDAY,
>(lexicographer who used IPA in the Sixties, IPA-cum-diacritics in the
>Seventies, and now uses a popular phonetic system; cf.
>www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index.htm - still in preparation, the
>phonetics awaiting insertion)
>
>P.S. I am still casting about for printable symbols that are compatible
>with
>WORD or the actual processing software (Notepad?) used for text
>input in website creation. Maybe there isn't any. Cf.
>"lek-s&-'k”-gr&-fE" (M-W's "lexicography").
>Scanning in of the text is one alternative,
>I suppose). I have been using WordPerfect since before WORD came on the
>scene, which is how I seem to be handicapped. Help requested.
>
>Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>>
>>  One of the problems in trying to use English orthographic re-spellings to
>>  indicate pronunciation is that regional pronunciations vary considerably,
>>  and of course there is considerable difference cross-linguistically in the
>>  pronunciation values attached to particular letters or combinations. This
>>  is why the International Phonetic Association was formed in the 19th c.,
>>  and why linguists use more-or-less consistent transcriptions to represent
>>  pronunciations. Americans for over 150 years have been shielded by
>>  dictionary-makers from confronting and learning a consistent phonemic
>>  representation, but British dictionaries have for some time utilized a
>>  version of the IPA system, and presumably British school-children learn
>>  this system, and know how to interpret it in using a dictionary. When I
>>  taught in Taiwan 30 years ago, I found that even 8th graders who were
>>  studying English as a foreign language, and struggling with the very
>>  concept of an alphabetic system for writing the language, were also
>>  expected to learn a "broad" IPA phonemic transcription at the same time.
>>  American innocence in this area, even after over 50 years of efforts by
>>  linguists, remains regrettable, and a reflection on our educational
>>  system.
>>
>>          Representing the different pronunciations of <route> as "root" and
>>  "rowt" runs afoul of the problem that the word <root> can be pronounced to
>>  rhyme with <foot> or <boot>, and the respelling "rowt" can be interpreted
>>  as reflecting the vowel of <rote> or of <rout>. A phonemic transcription
>>  of /ruwt/ (or /ru:t/, as some might prefer) vs /rawt/ (or again, some
>>  might aesthetically prefer /raUt/) has the value of being unambiguous and
>>  consistent (the variant transcriptions are equally clear and consistent).
>>
>>          Rudy

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Jun 30 13:15:52 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 08:15:52 -0500
Subject: Query: "ground-rent man" (baseball, 1908)
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.081552.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    My thanx to Jim Landau and Laurence Horn for their thoughts on
"ground-rent man." For the sake of completeness, here is the entire
item in which the "ground-rent" attestation appears:
        "Birthday Extra. Congratulations To Tris Speaker. Tristram
Speaker, star outfielder of the Boston Red Sox and one of the
greatest players in baseball, was born in Hubbard City, Tex., April
4, 1888.  He became a professional ball player in 1906, when he
joined the Cleburne, Tex., team.  In 1907 he played with the Houston
team.  At the close of the season he was purchased by Boston and
turned over to Little Rock the following spring as ground-rent man,
the Red Sox having trained on the Little Rock grounds.  At the close
of the Southern League season Speaker was repurchased by Boston for
$500 and joined the Red Sox late in the season of 1908.  Speaker is
one of the greatest hitters in baseball, having had a batting average
of .300 or better each season since leaving the Cleburne team.  In
the American League batting averages for last season he stood third
in the list with a mark of .383.  During the world's series last fall
he was voted the most useful player to his team in the American
League and was presented with an automobile in recognition of his
clever work, both as batter and fielder."
*********
    Remove Jim Landau's thought about the Red Sox kicking themselves
for turning over Speaker to Little Rock, and his suggestion on
"ground-rent" seems valid. What amazes me is the idea of a team
paying in kind (vs. cash) for use of spring-training grounds.

Gerald Cohen

>Date:         Sat, 29 Jun 2002 20:49:13 -0400
>From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: Query: "ground-rent man" (baseball, 1908)
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>At 3:40 PM -0400 6/29/02, James A. Landau wrote:
>>In a message dated 06/29/2002 2:52:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>>gcohen at UMR.EDU writes:
>>
>>>  >    April 4, 1913, p.20/3; 'Birthday Extra.  Congratulations To Tris
>>>   >Speaker'; 'He became a professional ball player in 1906, when he
>>>   >joined the Cleburne, Tex., team.  In 1907 he played with the Houston
>>>   >team.  At the close of the season he was purchased by [the] Boston
>>>   >[Red Sox] and turned over to Little Rock the following spring as
>>>   >ground-rent man, the Red Sox having trained on the Little Rock
>>>   >grounds.'
>>
>>The meaning seems clear to me.  Tris Speaker was turned over to the Little
>>Rock franchise as payment to Little Rock for letting the Red Sox train on
>>their grounds.    However invented the phrase "ground-rent man" was probably
>>not a real estate agent and used the term "ground-rent" under the impression
>>it meant "rent for using the grounds" as opposed to rent for an apartment,
>>lease payments for equipment, etc.
>>
>>I bet the Red Sox are still kicking themselves for, uh, selling Mr. Speaker
>>down the river.
>>
>Nah.  Speaker did play 7 full seasons (including some excellent ones)
>with the Sawx from 1909 through 1915 before being moved to Cleveland,
>which--though an obvious (little) rockhead move in retrospect, given
>his superb subsequent years for the Indians, was completely
>overshadowed by the matter of that other little contract transfer a
>couple of years later. The legacy of the Curse of the Bambino (the
>sale of Babe Ruth to the Yankees in 1920 to enable owner Harry Frazee
>for 100K to finance the musical No No Nanette--please don't tell me
>it's an urban legend) is the one from which the Olde Towne team has
>not yet recovered.  Perhaps this is the year?   Naaaah.
>
>larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 30 13:57:16 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 09:57:16 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
In-Reply-To: <009e01c21faf$3bab11c0$6595e440@billionone>
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.095716.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... My take on this is that "ling" = "zero" ... is the closest
>approximation you can get of "ni" = "you" (not worrying about the final
>"ng"). .... Interesting how it seems that for Chinese speakers the
>initials "n" and "l" are more easily mixed up and/or interchangeable ...
>than they are in English. ... Of course, in Taiwanese "you" is "li", which
>would reinforce the appropriateness of "ling" = "you".

I sure do suspect that it might. I wonder whether the acceptability of the
terminal nasal might also be reinforced, by the existence of the 'Mandarin'
'honorific' "you" ("nin").

On the other hand, on the Web I see "1" used for "ni" in "1487" = "yi si ba
qi" for "ni shi bai chi" = "you are an idiot". Different nerds, different
notions, as they say (^_^). I'm sure the tone is involved at least
sometimes, too.

These things are cute, analogous to those restaurant codes ("86" etc.) and
those CB radio codes ("10-4" etc.).

Next time I get annoyed in traffic, I'll say "Fourteen-eighty-seven": safer
(I guess, at least here in Pittsburgh) than my usual remarks, and better
for the kiddies' ears.

Thanks for satisfying my/our curiosity.

-- Doug Wilson


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 30 16:27:59 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:27:59 -0400
Subject: Query: "ground-rent man" (baseball, 1908)
In-Reply-To: <p04310100b9448b3aac75@[131.151.65.9]>
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.122759.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:15 AM -0500 6/30/02, Gerald Cohen wrote [quoting a contemporary
report on Tris Speaker]:
>   During the world's series last fall
>he was voted the most useful player to his team in the American
>League and was presented with an automobile in recognition of his
>clever work, both as batter and fielder."
>*********

I don't know about cleverness, but he is still generally recognized
as possibly the outstanding fielder among all centerfielders in the
history of the game, competing for the honor with DiMaggio and Mays.
Great fielders in Red Sox history have been few and far between,
although Joe DiMag's brother Dom was another fine ballhawk out in CF
at Fenway.  (I'll steer clear of what comes out of left, or right,
field.)

L


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 30 16:42:20 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:42:20 EDT
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.124220.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/30/2002 10:02:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
douglas at NB.NET writes:

> These things are cute, analogous to those restaurant codes ("86" etc.) and
>  those CB radio codes ("10-4" etc.).

How many restaurant "codes" are numeric, e.g. "86"?

On the other hand, the "10-" codes are numerous and are NOT slang.  In fact
they long antedate CB radio.  I don't know (does someone else on the list?)
where they originated, but they were widely adopted by police departments by
the 1960's.  In fact there was a 1950's television show, entitled (I think)
"Highway Patrol" about the California Highway Patrol in which the 10- codes
were extensively used.

I recall reading an article by a police officer ca. 1969 in which he
discovered, to his surprise, when joining a new department that the 10- codes
were NOT identical to those he was used to.  Apparently the 10- code, like
proto-Indo-European, has developed geographical dialects.

One might argue that the 10- codes were picked up by CB-ers from the TV show.
 Before CB became fashionable and widely discussed (during the 1974 version
of the Energy Crisis), it was used by truck drivers, who quite likely picked
it up from the police with whom they had numerous chances to, shall we say,
exchange shop talk.

The ones best known to the general public:
    10-4          OK
    10-20        present location
    10-200      still another euphemism for certain inescapable body functions

>From 10-200 we get the expression "home 20" meaning "where you are from".

         - Jim Landau


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 30 17:17:36 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 13:17:36 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
In-Reply-To: <197.9049a3b.2a508eec@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.131736.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Under what definition  of slang are such items (emphatically even) NOT slang?

dInIs



>In a message dated 06/30/2002 10:02:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>douglas at NB.NET writes:
>
>>  These things are cute, analogous to those restaurant codes ("86" etc.) and
>>   those CB radio codes ("10-4" etc.).
>
>How many restaurant "codes" are numeric, e.g. "86"?
>
>On the other hand, the "10-" codes are numerous and are NOT slang.  In fact
>they long antedate CB radio.  I don't know (does someone else on the list?)
>where they originated, but they were widely adopted by police departments by
>the 1960's.  In fact there was a 1950's television show, entitled (I think)
>"Highway Patrol" about the California Highway Patrol in which the 10- codes
>were extensively used.
>
>I recall reading an article by a police officer ca. 1969 in which he
>discovered, to his surprise, when joining a new department that the 10- codes
>were NOT identical to those he was used to.  Apparently the 10- code, like
>proto-Indo-European, has developed geographical dialects.
>
>One might argue that the 10- codes were picked up by CB-ers from the TV show.
>  Before CB became fashionable and widely discussed (during the 1974 version
>of the Energy Crisis), it was used by truck drivers, who quite likely picked
>it up from the police with whom they had numerous chances to, shall we say,
>exchange shop talk.
>
>The ones best known to the general public:
>     10-4          OK
>     10-20        present location
>     10-200      still another euphemism for certain inescapable body functions
>
>>>From 10-200 we get the expression "home 20" meaning "where you are from".
>
>          - Jim Landau

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Jun 30 17:27:38 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:27:38 -0500
Subject: "clever" (= skillful, adroit)
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.122738.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    My thanx again to Laurence Horn for his baseball insights. But
just as a clarification on the 1913 term "clever" as used in
reference to Tris Speaker's playing, the term does not have its
present meaning. Rather, it means "skillful, adroit."

   Right below my signoff is Larry's message, followed by the entry
for "clever" in my _Dictionary of 1913 Baseball and Other Lingo_,
vol. 1.

Gerald Cohen


>At 12:27 PM -0400 6/30/02, Laurence Horn wrote:
>From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: Query: "ground-rent man" (baseball, 1908)
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>At 8:15 AM -0500 6/30/02, Gerald Cohen wrote [quoting a contemporary
>report on Tris Speaker]:
>>   During the world's series last fall
>>he was voted the most useful player to his team in the American
>>League and was presented with an automobile in recognition of his
>>clever work, both as batter and fielder."
>>*********
>
>I don't know about cleverness, but he is still generally recognized
>as possibly the outstanding fielder among all centerfielders in the
>history of the game, competing for the honor with DiMaggio and Mays.
>Great fielders in Red Sox history have been few and far between,
>although Joe DiMag's brother Dom was another fine ballhawk out in CF
>at Fenway.  (I'll steer clear of what comes out of left, or right,
>field.)
>
>L


(from: _Dictionary of 1913 Baseball and Other Lingo_, vol. 1, by G. Cohen):

CLEVER 'skillful, adroit'--Feb. 13, 1913, p.16/3; 'Birthday Extra'.
Congratulations to [Boxer] Willie Ritchie': 'The following May Richie
boxed Wolgast four rounds and the clever showing he made in that bout
earned for him a chance to fight for the championship.'
Feb. 17, 1913, p.15/4; 'Birthday Extra. Congratulations To "Steve"
Evans': 'Louis (Steve) Evans, the clever outfielder of the St. Louis
National league Club, celebrates the twenty-eighth anniversary of his
birth today.'
Feb. 20,1913, p.19/4-5; 'Boots And Bingles'; col. 4: 'Walter [Mullin]
is a clever pitcher, who has been making a name for himself on the
sandlots of Toledo,....'
March 12, 1913, p.19/1-2; 'Del Howard May Manage Seals From...Bench';
col. 2: 'Both did clever work in preventing the Pitchers from
scoring.'-- (Full quote at Regulars.)
April 4, 1913, p.20/3; 'Birthday Extra. Congratulations to Tris
Speaker': 'During the world's series last fall he was voted the most
useful player to his team in the American League and was presented
with an automobile in recognition of his clever work, both as batter
and fielder.'
April 15, 1913, p.14/2-3; 'Photographs Excavated From Catacombs of
Sport, No. 87--"Brick" Devereaux': 'As an amateur Devereaux pitched,
but he was too clever a base runner and too nifty a hitter and too
speedy an infielder to give his time to curving.'
April 15, 1913, p.14/5; 'Results of Amateur Baseball';  (Redwood
game): 'The game was featured by the clever pitching of Tom Keating.'
April 24, 1913, p.16/5-7; 'Happy Bill Hogan Looms Up....'; col. 5:
'...turned several clever tricks.' --(Full quote at turn a trick.)
May 3, 1913, p.10/1; 'Wolves' Star Pitchers Hit All Over Lot': 'He
was been doing some very clever hitting for his team since he has
been playing regularly.'
May 8, 1913, p.14/1; 'Come-Back Stars Seem To Lose All Their Form':
'"Nagle, a mighty clever pitcher, went up [to the majors], and what
has been his record since he came back?"'
May 16, 1913, p.18/2-3; 'Photographs Excavated From Catacombs of
Sport, No. 112--Two Old Time Seals': 'Harry Kane, whose right name
was Cohen, was an eccentric character but a clever pitcher when he
had his mind set on his work.'
May 20, 1913, p.15/2; 'Birthday Extra. Congratulations To Eddie
Grant': 'Edward L. Grant, the clever infielder of the Cincinnati
Reds, celebrates the thirtieth anniversary of his birth today.'


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 30 17:53:46 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 13:53:46 -0400
Subject: PFD, Pioneer homes; Duckfarts (cocktail)
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.135346.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Seward.  I go to Valdez in about five minutes.

PFD--Personal Flotation Device.  (Everything's a "Personal" acronym--ed.)

PIONEER HOMES--Old age homes in Alaska.

MOOSE TRACKS--The ice cream here is vanilla, fudge, and peanut butter cups.

DUCKFART--My bus driver is also a bartender.  He comes from Albany, NY.  He says he serves Duckfarts here, but not there.  He says it's like a B-52, with one ingredient (Grand Marnier) different.
   Crown Royal, Baileys, Kaluha.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sun Jun 30 17:59:40 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 10:59:40 -0700
Subject: Smoke mouth
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.105940.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In several TV interviews with the spokesperson for the fire-fighting
effort in the Rodeo fire in northern Arizona, and in local TV news
coverage, the term "smoke mouth" has been used for the complex of
respiratory reactions that firefighters have had to the prolonged exposure
to smoke, ash, heat, and low humidity. I haven't checked, but wonder
whether this term has made it into any current dictionaries.

        Rudy


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 30 18:35:10 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 14:35:10 EDT
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.143510.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/30/2002 1:18:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes:

> Under what definition  of slang are such items (emphatically even) NOT
slang?

Such terms are not slang, or as I stated, are NOT slang, when they are
published in a codebook which the employer requires the employees to use
while on duty.  While I do not know who invented the 10- code, I do know that
any number of police departments have required their radio-carrying officers
to use the local variation of the 10- code book.

However, the phrase "home 20" is slang.

I use the word "jargon" to mean "the necessary technical vocabulary of a
particular activity".  Some jargon terms are officially imposed (e.g. the 10-
code) and some develop by a slang-like process, but both are necessary to the
in-group.  Example: the word "homer" in baseball.  With the meaning "home
run" it is slang.  With the meaning "an umpire who favors the home team" it
is necessary technical vocabulary, in this case necessary to avoid having to
use an entire dependent clause to describe an unfair umpire.  (Is there a
term for an umpire who favors the visiting team?)

The 10- code is therefore an example of officially-imosed jargon, at least
with reference to police officers who use it.  CB-ers copied it from the
police and as far as I know use it straight (except for "home 20") rather
than as an ongoing fountain for new slang.

            - Jim Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 30 18:45:40 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 14:45:40 EDT
Subject: Sourdoughs, Alaska Strawberries, and SOS (Salmon on a Shingle)
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.144540.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/29/2002 9:24:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

>    _S. O. S.: Salmon on a Shingle_
>     This dish feeds huge quantities of folks for breakfast.  Make mass
> amounts
>  of white sauce...


Sounds like somebody's parody of "Shit on a Shingle" (also abbreviated
"S.O.S."), which is the common term for that old army delicacy, creamed
chipped beef on toast (which does have a good deal of white, or whitish,
sauce in it).

                  - Jim Landau


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Sun Jun 30 18:53:21 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 19:53:21 +0100
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.195321.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The 'ten codes' are indeed jargon (another definition for which I would
suggest is professional or occupational slang). Though 10-4 does seem to
have moved into slang, as in

1990 Morgan _Homeboy_ 5: She was a big Ten Four for the rest of the evening
1996 P. Cornwell _Cause of Death_ (1997) 25: Everything ten-four?

where it means simply 'ready' and/or 'prepared.'

The current example de luxe of this kind of crossover is not a 10-Code but
'187', in legal terminology the California penal code for homicide and used
in rap/hip-hop to mean 1. a homicide; 2. (in weakened form) any type of
drama or crisis; 3. one who has been targeted for assassination.

Another such, though much less common, is '459': 1. a burglary; 2. to steal
(Calif. penal code section 459 dealing with burglary or intrusive behavior)

Jonathon Green


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 30 19:09:43 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 15:09:43 -0400
Subject: "clever" (= skillful, adroit)
In-Reply-To: <p04310100b944ec8adfc1@[131.151.65.166]>
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.150943.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:27 PM -0500 6/30/02, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>    My thanx again to Laurence Horn for his baseball insights. But
>just as a clarification on the 1913 term "clever" as used in
>reference to Tris Speaker's playing, the term does not have its
>present meaning. Rather, it means "skillful, adroit."
>
It's actually a very interesting word in terms of subtle semantic
shifts.  I'm aware of (some of) the differences between contemporary
British and U.S. applications of "clever", but hadn't realized the
existence of the baseball application for 'skillful' in earlier U.S.
usage you highlight.  Thanks.

Larry


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 30 20:05:49 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:05:49 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
In-Reply-To: <13c.10a2faa3.2a50a95e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.160549.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I don't follow this, especially since the "technical vocabulary" you
>cite is then restricted to "with reference to the Xs who use it."
>What about the rest of us?

More importantly, if anyone publishes a book which employees must
learn words or terms from have those items "lost" their slang status
by that means alone?

That "homer" (home-team favoring unmpire) is not slang is very odd to
me. It is not "necessary" in any sense except that those who deal
with baseball must know it. I think there is a confusion here of
slang which is slang but is jargon at the same time technical speech,
or jargon, which is not slang. And history, of course, can always
muddy things.

dInIs



>In a message dated 06/30/2002 1:18:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes:
>
>>  Under what definition  of slang are such items (emphatically even) NOT
>slang?
>
>Such terms are not slang, or as I stated, are NOT slang, when they are
>published in a codebook which the employer requires the employees to use
>while on duty.  While I do not know who invented the 10- code, I do know that
>any number of police departments have required their radio-carrying officers
>to use the local variation of the 10- code book.
>
>However, the phrase "home 20" is slang.
>
>I use the word "jargon" to mean "the necessary technical vocabulary of a
>particular activity".  Some jargon terms are officially imposed (e.g. the 10-
>code) and some develop by a slang-like process, but both are necessary to the
>in-group.  Example: the word "homer" in baseball.  With the meaning "home
>run" it is slang.  With the meaning "an umpire who favors the home team" it
>is necessary technical vocabulary, in this case necessary to avoid having to
>use an entire dependent clause to describe an unfair umpire.  (Is there a
>term for an umpire who favors the visiting team?)
>
>The 10- code is therefore an example of officially-imosed jargon, at least
>with reference to police officers who use it.  CB-ers copied it from the
>police and as far as I know use it straight (except for "home 20") rather
>than as an ongoing fountain for new slang.
>
>             - Jim Landau

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Sun Jun 30 21:12:19 2002
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 17:12:19 -0400
Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs. Orthographic
 respellings]
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.171219.0400.>

To answer a couple of questions raised by Mark and Dennis:

Mark: "How is this set of rules, abstracted and *regularized* from
English
orthography, not also a "key" to be learned?"

Good question. Answer: A literate person is
supposed to have already learned the common English spellings. That's
his key to using an orthographic respelling; no extra learning is
involved. But when you have a key, whether IPA-based or orthographically
based, unnecessary effort is involved. For example, is it any use to lay
down in a key that "ahr" is to be pronounced as in "arm, cart, bar"
(Oxford American)?

The rest of Mark's paragraph below, and Dennis's, in my view, has mainly
scholarly/academic value. In "phonetics" for the masses, we stick to the
essentials. However, speaking from personal experience, IPA practice
(esp. transcription) is also good training in thinking clearly about the
sounds of a language. But you can't deny that it is learning a new
language
for decoding another language.

Dennis says, "A phonetic representation is by contrast concrete. . . ."
That raises the question of what is concrete and what is
abstract. I think phonetics and individual examples of it are both
abstract rather than concrete. Don't concrete things belong to the real
sensory world, abstractions existing in the mind? The word "route,"
whether we give its pronunciation as (root, long "oo") or in some more
succinct way, as in IPA or as (root) with a diacritic over the "oo,"
both phonemically and phonetically are abstract, one being less
abstract than the other. A spelling-based keyless pronunciation system
is the least abstract of all. The concrete thing is the "route" we take
on
terra firma. Abstractions start arguments, concrete (not concrete
concrete!) settles them.

TOM PAIKEDAY (pointing to the spelling of his name, the first syllable
of which is not good orthography, but I didn't do it! Anyone who cares
please say PYE- not PAY-).

Mark A Mandel wrote:
>
> On Sun, 30 Jun 2002, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
>
>         [...]
> #IPA is abstract, which is as it should be since it is supposed to
> #represent the sounds obtaining in most human languages. Abstract
> #representations call for the use of a key in order to make the
> #transition from real to unreal (or abstract) and vice versa. It serves
> #scholarly purposes all right.
>         [...]
>
> #On the other hand, the popular "phonetic" transcriptions based on
> #English orthography are "concrete" and represent the real world. They
> #have no need for a key. Having to use a key is like hiring an
> #interpreter who is not really needed. All that is needed is reading
> #knowledge at the elementary (vaguely understood as Grades 6 - 8)
> #level, if we can forget for the moment about illiterate undergrads and
> #such.
>         [...]
>
> #Re "root" and "rowt" to represent <route>, I see no problem if you
> #consider the realities of the situation, namely, sounds in context.
> #Words like <bellow, blow, flow, hallow, show> normally occur at the end
> #of words.  If the normal pronunciation can be accepted as the regular
> #pattern of English orthography, then <show> and other words become the
> #exception. (Add also words like <acknowledge>) These, in my view, should
> #be dealt with separately and represented as (SHOH),(ak.NOL.ij) etc.
> #which are phonemically quite exact.

How is this set of rules, abstracted and *regularized* from English
orthography, not also a "key" to be learned? This particular paragraph,
for /aU/, is not bad, but what about the ambiguity in the respelling of
the other member of this pair, <oo> = /U/ ~ /u/ before final <t>? Beyond
that, how do you handle dialectal neutralizations, e.g., conveying
/open-o/ to a speaker who neutralizes it with /a/?

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large

Subject:
                   Re: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs.
Orthographic respellings]
           Date:
                   Sun, 30 Jun 2002 09:23:04 -0400
          From:
                   "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at pilot.msu.edu>
              To:
                   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU, t.paikeday at sympatico.ca
 References:
                   1 , 2
I am amazed at this very basic linguistic confusion.

Spelling (usually phonemic - and even morphophonemic, as SPE taught
us - rather than phonetic) is clearly abstract, if by that we mean
"divorced from the acoustic reality." A phonetic representation is by
contrast concrete (whether it is IPA or the broad phonetic
representation represented by respellings, e.g., "rawt" to indicate
how some folk pronounce "route" - pronounced /route/ by nobody except
those who read English but do not known it, although I had a friend
in grad school who once pronounced "creature" /kreature).

Of course almost all spelling systems have their their roots (sorry!)
in "sound," but they almost certainly have their roots in phonemic
(abstract) representations, not representations which represent
acoustic-articulatory reality, the goal of phonetic representations.

There is indeed a contrast here (and I do not want o suggest that the
mental representations of phonemes are not "concrete" in some CogSci
way), but surely the words abstract and concrete are reversed here so
far as their ordinary meanings are concerned.

dInIs (pointing to the "spelling" of his name)


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sun Jun 30 23:37:17 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:37:17 -0700
Subject: Next store
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.163717.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One of my former students sent the message below confirming the earlier
story I forwarded about a NYC student who wrote "next store" when the
instructor assumed "next door" was meant. This shows that the usage is not
just idiosyncratic. Fieldworkers from outside NYC would have to be careful
about imposing the wrong interpretation on the phonetic sequence.

        Rudy


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:42:32 EDT
From: DeniseMKenney at aol.com
To: rtroike at u.arizona.edu
Subject: (no subject)


       I had to get back to you about the "next store" thing.  I say that to
this day because when I was a kid we lived over a beauty salon on 8th Av. My
married sister lived "next store" over the candy store.  I never realized
what I was saying because, of course, everyone in Brooklyn speaks the right
way.  Don't unnerstand why you guys don't get it.  Thanks for the insight.
Denise


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  1 00:26:47 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 20:26:47 EDT
Subject: "Telecommuting" from 1973
Message-ID: <FRI.31.MAY.2002.202647.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 05/31/2002 7:21:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
lists at MCFEDRIES.COM writes:

> Interndisciplinary Program

If someone had disciplined Monica Lewinsky, I wonder how much difference it
would have made to the Clinton administration.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  1 00:32:27 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 20:32:27 EDT
Subject: Hollywood Harry
Message-ID: <FRI.31.MAY.2002.203227.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

HOLLYWOOD HARRY

   In today's (Friday's) NEW YORK POST, the split between Woody Allen and his
former producer is detailed.  Allen's lawyers allege that the producer
skimmed money from Allen.
   The producer's lawyer claims that Allen's lawyers are a bunch of
"Hollywood Harrys."
   That isn't in the RHHDAS or in CDS.  The speaker was probably thinking of
Neil Simon's award-winning LOST IN YONKERS, which has a character named
Hollywood Harry.
   HOLLYWOOD HARRY is also the name of a 1985 film.
   Anywhere else?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
Boy, this was fast.  How come the Chicago Historical Society couldn't do this
six years ago?

Subj:   Naming The Windy City
Date:   5/31/2002 6:28:35 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   <A HREF="mailto:see at islandnet.com">see at islandnet.com</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
Sent from the Internet (Details)



Hello All,

I just completed an interesting new account of the origin of Chicago's
nickname "The Windy City".

You can find it at:
http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/history/chicago-nickname.htm

Rainbows!
Keith
--
Keith C. Heidorn, PhD
The Weather Doctor

Spectrum Educational Enterprises: http://www.islandnet.com/~see/
304-3220 Quadra St, Victoria, British Columbia Canada V8X 1G3
(250) 388-7847  email: see at islandnet.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun  1 00:44:29 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 20:44:29 -0400
Subject: "toke the wild hair" -- Query
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.20020531182625.131fda22@idirect.ca>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.MAY.2002.204429.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:26 PM -0400 5/31/02, James McIntosh wrote:
>Bill Smith ---
>
>At 04:25 PM 5/31/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>Has no one noticed that "toke" meant "inhale marijuana", as in Jan and
>>Dean's (I think) song "One toke over the line"?
>>Bill
>
>I doubt that it was Jan and Dean.
>Maybe Brewer and Shipley.
>
...Sweet Jesus.

It was the latter pair.

Larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun  1 05:03:35 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 01:03:35 -0400
Subject: Amush
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020531144021.023b4c70@nb.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUN.2002.010335.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here is the total text of my e-mail request to a highly respected local
geek/savant for consultation:

<<Do you recognize the word "amush"? Maybe it's some kind of jargon. Google
gets ~400 hits; some are errors for "ambush", some are apparently giving a
salutation or something in Hebrew, others I don't know.>>

Note that I provided no quotation or context.

My consultant responds:

<<The first thing I thought upon reading your question was "amush ?=?
amuck". ... Well, a MUSH is similar to a MUCK... Multi-User Shared
Hallucination vs. [Multi-User] Created Kingdom ([both] likely backronymic).
... many of the first hits I turned up on Google were for AuroraMUSH or
something hosted under their domain, amush.cx.>>

It seems that both MUSH and MUCK refer to virtual environments largely used
for role-playing games. I guess "muck" is semantically similar to "mush"
... wait, maybe there's a "MUD" too? Yes, it looks like there is, the
ancestor probably: Google estimates ~66,000 hits for "mud multi-user":
apparently "MUD" = "multi-user dungeon" or "multi-user dimension", dating
from *really* ancient times (ca. 1980, *well* before my consultant's birth):

http://www.apocalypse.org/pub/u/lpb/muddex/

Amusing, although of questionable relevance to Michael Quinion's question.
In 21st-century geography, I believe Pennsylvania and Yorkshire are
adjacent/congruent, and both closely related to Christmas Island (the
notional location of "amush.cx"). Perhaps the age of the user of the
mystery expression might be of interest.

-- Doug Wilson


From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU  Sat Jun  1 05:40:58 2002
From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 00:40:58 -0500
Subject: Amush
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020601000647.023b0b90@nb.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUN.2002.004058.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Do they use the vowel in look or the vowel in luck?
dmlance

on 6/1/02 12:03 AM, Douglas G. Wilson at douglas at NB.NET wrote:

> Here is the total text of my e-mail request to a highly respected local
> geek/savant for consultation:
>
> <<Do you recognize the word "amush"? Maybe it's some kind of jargon. Google
> gets ~400 hits; some are errors for "ambush", some are apparently giving a
> salutation or something in Hebrew, others I don't know.>>
>
> Note that I provided no quotation or context.
>
> My consultant responds:
>
> <<The first thing I thought upon reading your question was "amush ?=?
> amuck". ... Well, a MUSH is similar to a MUCK... Multi-User Shared
> Hallucination vs. [Multi-User] Created Kingdom ([both] likely backronymic).
> ... many of the first hits I turned up on Google were for AuroraMUSH or
> something hosted under their domain, amush.cx.>>
>
> It seems that both MUSH and MUCK refer to virtual environments largely used
> for role-playing games. I guess "muck" is semantically similar to "mush"
> ... wait, maybe there's a "MUD" too? Yes, it looks like there is, the
> ancestor probably: Google estimates ~66,000 hits for "mud multi-user":
> apparently "MUD" = "multi-user dungeon" or "multi-user dimension", dating
> from *really* ancient times (ca. 1980, *well* before my consultant's birth):
>
> http://www.apocalypse.org/pub/u/lpb/muddex/
>
> Amusing, although of questionable relevance to Michael Quinion's question.
> In 21st-century geography, I believe Pennsylvania and Yorkshire are
> adjacent/congruent, and both closely related to Christmas Island (the
> notional location of "amush.cx"). Perhaps the age of the user of the
> mystery expression might be of interest.
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun  1 06:29:12 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 02:29:12 -0400
Subject: Amush
In-Reply-To: <B91DC899.2F96%lancedm@missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUN.2002.022912.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Do they use the vowel in look or the vowel in luck?

It's probably somewhat optional, since it's quite conventional for these
modern types to communicate by e-mail while working in the same room ....

My consultant consistently used the vowel in "luck", when I spoke with him
in the old-fashioned real-time audible manner a few hours ago.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  1 09:55:32 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 05:55:32 EDT
Subject: Pointing a Finger (1938)
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUN.2002.055532.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The great Fred Shapiro gets a mention in William Safire's "On Language"
column this Sunday.  From the NY TIMES MAGAZINE on the web site:

   Fred Shapiro of Yale, compiling the hungrily awaited Yale Dictionary of
Quotations, has dug up this citation from a 1941 Social Forces
magazine..."This finger-pointing is not only unnecessary but false."

("Hungrily" awaited?  Is Fred writing about food, too?--ed.)

   I didn't read it, but the NYPL has this book title:

Toomey, John A.
PROPAGANDA IN THE PRESS:
POINTING A FINGER AT PRESS PROPAGANDA
New York: America Press
1938


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Jun  1 14:21:07 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 09:21:07 -0500
Subject: Vocabula Review
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUN.2002.092107.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Would Mr. Fiske please provide an indication of the type of
articles contained in _The Vocabula Review_. (The URL cited gives
just endorsements).

Gerald Cohen



>Date:         Fri, 31 May 2002 14:49:27 EDT
>From: Robert Hartwell Fiske <Vocabula at AOL.COM>
>Subject:      The Vocabula Review
>Comments: To: ADS-L at uga.cc.uga.edu
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>Hello
>
>Though a free publication for two and a half years, The Vocabula Review is
>now wholly available to paying subscribers only.
>
>Many of The Vocabula Review's pages are now accessible only to those who have
>paid a $4.95 (USD) yearly fee.
>
>That's right, only $4.95 a year.
>
>Why not take a look?
>
>http://www.vocabula.com/VRsubscribe.htm
>
>
>Robert Hartwell Fiske
>Editor and Publisher
>The Vocabula Review
>www.vocabula.com
>______________________
>
>The Vocabula Review
>A measly $4.95 a year
>www.vocabula.com
>______________________
>
>The Vocabula Review
>10 Grant Place
>Lexington, MA 02420
>United States
>Tel: (781) 861-1515


From Vocabula at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  1 14:45:22 2002
From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 10:45:22 EDT
Subject: Vocabula Review
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUN.2002.104522.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Mr Cohen

Online since September 1999, The Vocabula Review (http://www.vocabula.com)
offers scores of articles in its TVR Essay Archive
(http://www.vocabula.com/VRessay.htm).

Each month, we publish three or four new essays. In the May issue, now
online, we have published:

The Melancholy of Anatomy -- Richard Burnett Carter
Myth-Bashing as a Substitute for Thought -- Mark Halpern
Mach 1 -- Michael J. Sheehan
Myths and Takes on Writing Web Content -- Ken Bresler
Two Poems -- Brian Taylor

In the June issue, online June 16, we will publish:

The Missing Link -- Darren Crovitz
Penman -- Joseph Epstein
Rhetoric and Reality -- Konstantin Kakaes
The Elder Statesman -- Clark Elder Morrow

We also publish a number of regular departments:

Grumbling About Grammar
Elegant English
On Dimwitticisms
Clues to Concise Writing
Scarcely Used Words
Oddments and Miscellanea
On the Bookshelf
Letters to the Editor

What's more, TVR Forum (http://members.boardhost.com/Vocabula/) may interest
you.

Regards,


Robert Hartwell Fiske
Editor and Publisher
The Vocabula Review
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
A measly $4.95 a year
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
10 Grant Place
Lexington, MA 02420
United States
Tel: (781) 861-1515


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  1 21:40:08 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 17:40:08 EDT
Subject: Linguists like to argue!?
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUN.2002.174008.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 05/24/2002 9:39:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes:

> James Landau proposes a position once advocated by Nikolai Trubezkoy in
1939:
> "Gedanken ?ber Indogermanenproblem" in Acta Linguistica 1.81-89. I am not
> sure that anything similar to the creole lifecycle, for which I maintain
that
> there is no compelling empirical evidence, played a role in the process.
But
> I too believe strongly that language contact was an important factor in the
> speciation of an already variable proto-IE group of languages or language
> varieties. History has always suggested such a thing.

Yes, I thought of Trukezkoy when I wrote my original e-mail, but my sole
source of information on Trubezkoy is a few short mentions in Colin Renfrew
_Archaeology & Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins_ Cambridge,
England: Cambridge University Press, 1987, ISBN 0-521-35432-3 (hardback).
>From page 42 of the hardback "Few scholars today would go so far as Trubeskoy
in suggesting that there is no genetic or family-tree relationship at all
among the Indo-European languages, and that they just came to resemble each
other through the effects of prolonged contact.  And very few indeed would
agree with the French archaeologist, Jean-Paul Demoule, that there really is
no Indo-European language group at all, or that the similarities observed are
unimportant, insignificant and fortuitous."   (Demoule is footnoted as "'Les
Indo-europe/ens ont-ils existe/?" in _L'histoire_ 28 (1980) pp 109-120.

If Renfrew's summary is correct, then Trubeskoy was arguing a convergence
theory, and I am skeptical of convergence theories, e.g. if convergence were
a natural feature of adjacent languages, Canadians would now be speaking
Franglais as their national language.  As you point out in _The Ecology of
Language Evolution_, Creoles arise when there is a specific type of contact
between peoples speaking different tongues that requires one people to have
to develop a way to speak to the other.

Far from "denying any genetic or family-tree relationship at all among the
Indo-European languages", as Renfrew says Trubezkoy does, I was accepting for
purpose of discussion that a family-tree DOES exist among IE languages, and
was as a mental exercise showing one way such a family tree could exist
without requiring the existence of a unified proto-Indo-European language.

While my particular suggestion is too far-fetched to be believable (did you
spot the fatal flaw in it?), it does serve a serious purpose.  Many IE
researchers have made elaborate attempts to identify the time and place of
PIE by examining similarities in the known IE languages.  If PIE did not
exist as a tongue spoken in one particular area at one particular time, then
this is wasted effort.  Perhaps researchers should concentrate more on
examining the DIFFERENCES between IE subfamilies, asking such questions as
"do the differences in *proto-Greek and *proto-Indo-Aryan show that the
Greeks and Indo-Aryans were once a united people or that they were on
different sides of the proto-Indo-European spectrum?"

I also had a second purpose in my little theory.  Question: when and where
did PIE (or reasonable facsmile) exist.  Consensus answer: 5K to 10K years
ago, somewhere in Europe or the Black Sea region.  Fine so far.  Now assume
that before the time frame in which an identifiable putative-PIE existed, the
proto-proto-IE speakers spent millenia speaking ancestral versions of our
reconstructed *PIE's.  With me so far?  But add a few millenia to "5K to 10K
years ago" and you are in the Ice Age, when glaciers covered northern Europe
and our proto-proto-IE speakers were huddling in the Mediterranean or Fertile
Crescent regions, along with proto-Basques, proto-Semites, and
proto-Finno-Ugrians.

Someone who wishes to argue that IE is unrelated to other language families
must then, by my analysis, argue that the predecessors of the PIE speakers
INVENTED language sometime shortly after the END of the Ice Age, with no
input from the proto-Basques etc.  who were their neighbors in the late Ice
Age.  (Perhaps the proto-Basques etc. independently invented language after
the end of the Ice Age as well).  I find this to be a preposterously late
date for the invention of language, considering that Cro-Magnon man was
creating cave art DURING the Ice Age, and I can't imagine Cro-Magnon man
inventing art before having language.

I have now created a quite tenuous argument that proto-proto-IE speakers,
proto-Basque speakers, etc. were all using language while neighbors in the
Mediterranean-Fertile Crescent area DURING the Ice Age.  I am NOT suggesting
any convergence between these early examples of modern language families.
However, I suspect that the geographical realities strongly suggest (although
they do not prove) that at least some of the IE, Basque, Semitic (actually
Afro-Asiatic), and Finno-Ugrian families were descended from some unknown
earlier language,  This is not an original suggestion; rather it is my
variation on the Nostratic Hypothesis.

My point is not to advocate the Nostratic Hypothesis but rather to point out
that if IE is descended from Nostratic, something strange happened along the
way.  Finno-Ugrian languages share some distinctive grammatical and phonetic
features which simply cannot be found in PIE.  Semitic languages have a
three-consonant root for most words; again IE has nothing of the sort and
allows vowels to be as significant as consonants in distinguishing roots.
Basque is notorious for not resembling anything else, including PIE.

So we have a PIE which was descended from some sort of Nostratic, yet
grammatically and phonetically resembles no other plausible Nostratic
descendant.

Now to connect all this meandering with my original e-mail.  There is one way
that PIE could arise from a different language yet with a structure so
mangled as to be unrecognizable.  How?  If PIE were a creole.  More exactly,
if the proto-IE speakers found themselves in a position (e.g. defeated and
enslaved by neighbors speaking an unrelated or distantly related tongue) that
would cause a creole to develop.  Then after some centuries the proto-IE
speakers would escape from slavery but by then have forgotten their original
tongue and speak only the creole we recognize as PIE (undoubtedly in several
dialects), with all evidence of their original tongue being lost due to the
poor signal-to-noise ratio of paleolinguistics.

        Climbing down from my soapbox now

      - James A. Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  2 00:43:10 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 20:43:10 -0400
Subject: Pita, Zilabka (1925); Mezzlik (1904); Halva from Philadelphia,
 Turkey
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUN.2002.204310.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PITA, ZILABKA

TWO VAGABONDS IN THE BALKANS
by Jan and Cora Gordon
London: John Lane
1925

Pg. 112:  The climax of her culinary efforts was reached with the "Pita."  If one walks around any Serbian farmhouse one will probably find hanging outside upon the whitewashed wall in some sheltered spot a flat circular low-legged table.  This is the pita board.  Upon it a paste of flour and water is rolled and rolled again with a long narrow roller, until the paste is as thin as writing paper and has spread to equal in surface the diameter of the table itself, about two feet six inches.  This paste is then sprinkled with lumps of the clammy white cheese, or with mincemeat, gathered up into a loose roll like a packet of Christmas tissue paper, and coiled within a flat cooking dish.  Sucessive coils are added until the dish is filled; it is then greased and fried.
   Pita properly made can be delicious, although it is over-luscious for the Western palate; but peasant-made pita almost defies the gastronomic imagination.
(OED has 1951 for "pita"--ed.)

Pg. 197:  The grapes here are of the low stumpy variety, and the best wine is of two kinds, a white wine called Zilabka,* not unlike white Bordeaux, and a ruby red not unlike a medium flavoured Chianti, both, however, strong in alcohol: indeed the local drinkers were complaining that owing to the weakening of the vines the wines were losing their potency and were becoming undrinkable.
*Z, pr. Zh.
(OED has 1926 for "Zilavka"--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
MEZZLIK

TURKISH LIFE IN TOWN AND COUNTRY
by Lucy M. J. Garnett
G. P. Putnam's Sons, New York and London
The Knickerbocker Press
1904 (1911 edition)

Pg. 331 (Glossary):
_Mezzlik_--a _hors d'oeuvre_.
(Mezzlik=Meze?  If so, this antedates that by about 10 years and is useful for the etymology of "meze"--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
HALVA FROM PHILADELPHIA, TURKEY

EVERYDAY LIFE IN TURKEY
by Mrs. W. M. Ramsay
London: Hodder and Stoughton
1897

Pg. 198:  The ladies of the house were charming and very kind, and gave me _halva_, a sweetmeat for which Ala-Sheher is renowned, as Forfar is for "rock" and Banbury for its cakes.

Pg. 194:  ...Ala-Sheher...the ancient Philadelphia, still so named by the Greeks.

(Ah!  So "halva" originated in Philadelphia, Turkey and not Azerbaijan?--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  2 01:33:52 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 21:33:52 -0400
Subject: Aguardiente (1810); Tronc (1853); Blame Game
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUN.2002.213352.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

AGUARDIENTE

TRAVELS THROUGH THE EMPIRE OF MOROCCO
by John Buffa
London: J. J. Stockdale
1810

Pg. 69:  When we reached the house of the Vice-consul, I was presented with a glass of _aguardiente_, for refreshment.

Pg. 182:  ..._cous-ca-sou_...

Pg. 216:  Having drank too much _aguardiente_, they imagined themselves in the streets of Gibraltar.

(OED has 1818 or 1824 for "aguardiente"--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
TRONC

BOGUE'S GUIDES FOR TRAVELLERS
II.  SWITZERLAND AND SAVOY
London: David Bogue
1853

Pg. 260:  They have a very nice chapel, adorned with paintings, and in it is a "_tronc_," or chairty-box, where travellers who partake of the hospitality of the kind monks ordinarily deposit alms, not of less amount than they would be charged at an inn, though the shelter and Hospice are entirely without charge.

(OED has 1928 for "tronc"--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
BLAME GAME

"The coiner--or at least, the political popularizer--was President Ronald Reagan in a television address to the nation on Oct. 14, 1982."
--William Safire, "On Language," NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE, 2 June 2002.

   This stuff is awful.
   I know, I know--William Safire is entitled to a free ride to say anything he wants about anything, without correction or criticism.  And responding to me after 10+ years would lose the War for the Allies or something.
   But this is wrong: Ronald Reagan didn't coin "blame game," and he didn't popularize it either.  I recall it being used in the 1960s (about the Vietnam War), when the phrase "the name of the game" was also popular.
   A quick search turns up:

THE BLAME GAME
by Daniel Whiteside
Sande/Whiteside Associates, BFA Educational Media
Film 1 film reel (20 min.)
1974

(BOB CARR DISCUSSES U.S. FOREIGN POLICY IN SOUTHEAST ASIA)
by Bob Carr and Craig Halverson
Sound Recording: Non-music 1 sound tape reel
1975
Abstract:  Carr says the American people are tired of the "blame game" regarding Southeast Asia, that the credibility of American government on Capitol Hill is more important than what might be thought of us overseas.  With Craig Halverson.
Note:  Broadcast on WKAR-TV, April 1975.

KNOWING ME, KNOWING YOU
Coronet Instructional Media
Visual Material: Filmstrip: Primary school
1977, 1976
Contents:  The I feel game.--The you feel game.--The no blame game.--The I want-you want game.


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Sun Jun  2 05:31:20 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 00:31:20 -0500
Subject: Linguists like to argue!?
In-Reply-To: <6c.1d1545a3.2a2a9938@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.003120.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Most of James Landau's proposal is at least plausible, if not very well
grounded in evidence.  However, the paragraph I retained below is straight
straw man, or maybe just straight man.  Lots of IEists doubt, question, or
reject outright the various forms of the Nostratic Hypothesis and its even
more remote varieties like Eurasian, although some are looking more
carefully at some of the published arguments and evidence.  However, I have
yet to see serious argument by an IEist that IE is unrelated to Dravidian or
Uralic or Afro-Asiatic.  Rather the argument is that such relationships are
seriously underdetermined by the data.  Even the most violently hostile of
Greenberg's or Ruhlen's critics, for example, will not say that monogenesis
is impossible.  They'll say simply that our methods can't take us back
anywhere near such a time.  One interesting treatment of connections, with
borrowing in both directions, between PIE and other languages of Western
Asia, the Caucasus, Asia Minor, and Mesopotamia is Gamkrelidze and Ivanov's
compendious Indo-European and the Indo-Europeans published in English in
1995 in a translation by Johanna Nichols.

Herb

James A. Landau writes:

Someone who wishes to argue that IE is unrelated to other language families
must then, by my analysis, argue that the predecessors of the PIE speakers
INVENTED language sometime shortly after the END of the Ice Age, with no
input from the proto-Basques etc.  who were their neighbors in the late Ice
Age.  (Perhaps the proto-Basques etc. independently invented language after
the end of the Ice Age as well).  I find this to be a preposterously late
date for the invention of language, considering that Cro-Magnon man was
creating cave art DURING the Ice Age, and I can't imagine Cro-Magnon man
inventing art before having language.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  2 07:05:08 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 03:05:08 EDT
Subject: "Pideh" in Evliya Efendi's 17th Century Travels
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.030508.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NARRATIVE OF TRAVELS IN EUROPE, ASIA, AND AFRICA,
IN THE SEVENTEENTH CENTURY
by Evliya Efendi
translated from the Turkish by The Ritter Joseph von Hammer
London: Printed for the Oriental Translation Fund of Great Britain and
Ireland,
sold by Parbury, Allen & Co.
1834
Johnson Reprint Corporation, NY and London
1968

    ZERO OED CITES????
   The author's name is also often given as Evliya Celebi (1611 or
1614-1682).  The book's name is also given as SEYAHATNAME (BOOK OF TRAVELS).
Nothing turned up on OED.
   The book is a classic for Turkey and the Caucasus.  It's just about the
earliest book there is for this stuff.  Please tell me I plugged in something
wrong in my online OED.  It can't be entirely missing!
   A few items before I lose consciousness and fall asleep.

VOLUME ONE
PART ONE
Pg. 61:  ...he ate some kababs and bread and drank buzah (a kind of beer)...

Pg. 135:  ..._dayara_ (tambourine)...
Pg. 135:  ...warsiki (mystic song)...

Pg. 150:  ...a _fetva_, or warrant for the execution...

VOLUME ONE
PART TWO
Pg. 13:  ...a gipsy (Chingani)...

Pg. 47:  _Eatables and Beverages of Kassim Pasha_.
   These consist of whitee cracknels (gurek), white bread (semid), pastry
(churek), and peaches of exquisite flavour, apricots, grapes, roses of
Boshnak Dedeh, kaimak (cream), and yogurd (curd), and fat sheep.

Pg. 53:  _Exquisite eatables and beverages of Galata_.
   The first and best is the white bread, called franjula; the sweetmeats,
liqueurs and confitures sold in the sugar-market  are  no where to be found
in such perfection, unless it is at Damascus.  The halwa is sold in painted
paper.  The white bread (semid) is seasoned with spice.

Pg. 54:  I drank only of the sherbet, cvalled mubtejil, made with Athenian
honey.

Pg. 61:  Amongst the most exquisite niceties of this place is the roast meat,
called kerdeh kibab, the khoshab (a kind of sherbet). the beer of millet
(buza) the white bread (sumuni), light as sponge, white and well-eyed, finer
than the bread of Sabanja and Amasia.  Issa Chelebi, the famous baker of it,
received a boon from a Dervish, by the power of which every thing succeeded
that he underook.  He became the baker of the world, because this bread is
carried even to Isfahan, and though three months in going, it does not spoil.

Pg. 75:  The milk and curd (yoghud) of this place are famous.
("Of Kanlijah"--ed.)

Pg. 100:  ...Tailesan (a kind of handkerchief, the Talas of the Jews,)...


Pg. 120  (Ash Baba not Mohallebi, or Pabodeh, which are technical names of
different dishes.)
(See my recent post on "muhallebi."--ed.)

Pg. 121:  Besides these they bake some small sorts of bread and cake called
Ramazan pideh, sumun, and lawasha, which they throw out in the Emperor's
Presence...
(See my "pita" posting and compare with "pide."  Gotta go--sleep is
calling--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  2 14:37:50 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 10:37:50 EDT
Subject: Caucasus food glossaries (LONG!)
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.103750.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I have several lengthy Caucasus food glossaries.  How do they stack up
against the OED?  Are the terms in the OED at all?
   Some of these words are English, some of these words should be English,
and some of these words definitely should not be English.  These are
glossaries in English language books for this region.  Dictionary editors can
judge for themselves.
   My general rule is that is the term occurs more than once, or if it's in
the non-food specialized LONELY PLANET glossary, its English use should be
seriously considered.

AC=
THE ARMENIAN COOKBOOK
by Rachel Hogrogian
Atheneum, New York
1978
Food glossary pages xv-xxi

AZ=
AZERBAIJAN, WITH EXCURSIONS TO GEORGIA
by Mark Elliott
Trailblazer Publications, Surrey
second edition 2001
Huge food glossary pages 320-325.

GEO=
GEORGIA: A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY OF THE CAUCASUS
by Roger Rosen
Odyssey Publications, London
1991, 1999
Food glossary pages 77-81.

GeoF=
THE GEORGIAN FEAST:
THE VIBRANT CULTURE AND SAVORY FOOD OF THE REPUBLIC OF GEORGIA
by Darra Goldstein
HarperCollins, NY
1993
Food glossary pages 210-211.

LP=
LONELY PLANET
GEORGIA, ARMENIA & AZERBAIJAN
Lonely Planet, Victoria, Australia
1st edition, August 2000
Food Glossaries each country, pages 49, 87, 191, 254

abgusht--AZ 320
abour--AC xv
achma--GEO 79
adfeh--AC xv
Adjem pilaf--AC xv
adjaruli--GEO 79
adzhapsandali--GeoF 210
adzhika--GEO 77, GeoF 210, LP 87 (ajika)
ajma--AZ 320
akhta--AZ 320
albukhara--AZ 320
alcha turchusu--AZ 320
alfar--AZ 320
anoush--AC xv
anoushabour--AC xv
anousheghen--AC xv
arabuli--AZ 320
arak--AZ 320
ash--AZ 320
asterina--AZ 320
atkyartof--AZ 320
ayran--AZ 320
azma--AZ 320
baba ghanoush--AC xv
badagi--GeoF 210
badamli borucuq--AZ 320
badimcan--AZ 320
badrijani--GEO 78
baki--AC xv
bakhlava--AZ 320
baliq--AZ 321, LP 255
balva--AZ 321
bamiya--AC xv, AZ 321, LP 255
banir--AC xv
bardijan nigzit--AZ 320
bastegh--AC xv
basturma--AZ 321, GEO 78, GeoF 210, LP 191 (bastarma)
bazhe--GeoF 210
bazhi--GEO 78
bekmes--AZ 321
beyin--AZ 321
biberr--AC xv
bishi--AC xv
blini--AZ 321
boerag--AC xv
boombar--AC xv
borani--GeoF 210
borshch--AZ 321
bourma--AC xv
bozartma--AZ 321
bozbash--AZ 321
buglama--AZ 321, GeoF 210
bulghour--AC xv
bulghourov spanakh--AC xv
chacha--GeoF 210
chadi--AZ 321, GEO 78
chakapuli--GEO 78, GeoF 210
chakhokhbili--GEO 78, GeoF 210
chanakhi--GEO 78, GeoF 210
chashushuli--AZ 321
chicken chkmeruli (tabaka)--GEO 78
chigh kofte--AZ 321
chi kufta--AC xv
chigirtma--AZ 321
chikhirtma--Geof 210
choereg--AC xv
cholpan--AZ 321
chorba--AZ 321
chorek--AZ 321, LP 255
churchkhela--AZ 321, GEO 78, LP 87
chvishtari--AZ 321
ciger--liver
dabgadz--AC xv
danduri--GeoF 210
derev--AC xvi
derev dolma--AC xvi
doga--AZ 321
dograma--AZ 321, LP 255
dolma--AC xvi, AZ 321, LP 191, LP 255
dondurma--AZ 321
Donn orva pilaf--AC xvi
dovga--AZ 321, LP 255
duezmah--AC xvi
dushbara--AZ 321, LP 255
dutmaj abour--AC xvi
dzhondzholi--GeoF 210
ekmek kadayif--AC xvi
enguinar--AC xvi
enovani--GEO 79
erishtah abour--AC xvi
etli--AZ 321
etli nahout--AZ 321
ezme salad--AZ 321
fassoulia--AC xvi
feeshneyov anoush--AC xvi
filo--AC xvi
firinda--AZ 321
gaiganag--AZ 321
gamburger--AZ 321
gatnabour--AC xvi
gelorig--AC xvi
geragoornerr--AC xvi
ghomi--GEO 79
girmapadam--LP 255
goch yumurta--AZ 321
gogal--AZ 321
gomi--GeoF 210
gorgod--AC xvi
goy/goyarti--AZ 322, LP 255
gozinaki--GEO 79, GeoF 210
gozinkali--AZ 322
gozleme--AZ 322
gretchka--AZ 322, LP 254 (gretchkii)
gubdari--AZ 322
gudis kveli--LP 87
guevej--AC xvi
gurza--AZ 322
hafta-bedjar--AZ 322
halva--AZ 322, LP 255
halvah--AC xvi
hash--AZ 322
hav--AC xvi
havgit--AC xvi
havgitov fassoulia--AC xvi
haydari--AZ 322
heyva--AZ 322
hummos--AC xvi
ikra--AZ 322
imam bayeldi--AC xvii
imeruli--GEO 79
imrig halvah--AC xvii
isrimi--GeoF 210
izmire kufta--AC xvii
jajukh--AC xvii
jevisli--AC xvii
jezveh--AC xvii
jigerr--AC xvii
jiz-biz--AZ 322
juxa--AZ 322
kaban--AZ 322
kadayif--AC xvii
kaklik--AZ 322
kalapacha--AZ 322
kalyam dolmasy--AZ 322
karabich--AC xvii
karishik izgara--AZ 322
karni yarik--AZ 322
kartozhki--AZ 322
kartut--AZ 322
katah--AC xvii
kazbeguri--AZ 322
kebab/kebob--AZ 322, LP 191
keshkeg--AC xvii
ketsi--GeoF 210
khabourga--AC xvii
khachapuri--GEO 79, GeoF 210, LP 88
khajapuri--AZ 322
khaimakh--AC xvii
khamaju--LP 191
kharcho--GEO 79, GeoF 210
khash--LP 191
khashi--GEO 79, GeoF 211, LP 88
khashlama--LP 191
khavourma--AC xvii
kheyma--AC xvii
khingkale/khingal--AZ 322
khinkali--GEO 79, GeoF 211, LP 88
khmeli-suneli--GeoF 211
khoravatz (shashlyk)--LP 191
khoritzov katah--AC xvii
khoshop--AC xvii
khourabia--AC xvii
khumoreghen--AC xvii
khundsor--AC xviii
khunsorov dolma--AC xviii
khurma/xurma--AZ 323
kievski kotleta--AZ 323
kimion--AC xviii
kimionov kufta--AC xviii
kinza--AZ 323
kofte/kuftasi--AZ 323
kompot--AZ 323
kotleta--AZ 323
kourma--AZ 323
kouzou kzartma--AC xviii
kufta--AC xviii
kuchmachi--AZ 323
kupati--AZ 323
kuri zharennie--AZ 323
kutab--AZ 323
kulcha--AZ 323
kutum--AZ 323
kvatsarakhi--GeoF 211
kvevri--GeoF 211, LP 88
kyufte--LP 191
kyzal gul sok--AZ 323
lahana--AC xviii
lahmacun--AZ 323
lahmajoon--AC xviii
langet--AZ 323
lapsha--AZ 323
lavangi--AZ 323, LP 255
lavash--AC xviii, AZ 323, LP 191
lavashana--AZ 323
lehzoo--AC xviii
lobio--GEO 81, GeoF 211, LP 87
lobya--AZ 323
lokhma--AC xviii
lulle kebab--AC xviii, LP 255
machari--GeoF 211
madzoon--AC xviii
madzoonov--AC xviii
madzoonabourov kufta--AC xviii
mahleb--AC xviii
mamoul--AC xviii
mamounya--AC xviii
manti--AC xviii, AZ 323
marani--GeoF 211
masharabi--GeoF 211
matsoni--GEO 81, GeoF 211, LP 87
matsonye--AZ 323
mchadi--GeoF 211
mees--AC xviii
meeseghen--AC xviii
meesov geragoornerr--AC xviii
mehr--AZ 323
mercimek/merjimek--AZ 323
meza--AC xviii
midia--AC xviii
midia dolma--AC xix
mkhali (also pkhali)--GeoF 211
mtsvadi (shashlik)--AZ 323, GEO 81, GeoF 211
morok--AZ 323
moussaka--AC xix
muedjatdera--AC xix
muhallabi--AC xix
murabba--AZ 323
myasa--AZ 323
naatiffe--AC xix
nadugi--GEO 81, GeoF 211
narsharab--AZ 323
nasuk--AZ 323
noush--AC xix
noushov pilaf--AC xix
ojakhuri--AZ 323
okroshka--AZ 323
ooghegh--AC xix
ovma--AZ 323
ovrishta--AZ 323
pacha--AC xix
paghlah--AC xix
pakhlava--AC xix, LP 255
panchareghen--AC xix
pandjarabour--AC xix
parpatoyun--AZ 323
pasterma--AC xix
patinlecan--AZ 323
patisson--AZ 323
patlijan--AC xix
patlijan karni yarek--AC xix
patlijanov--AC xix
paxlava--AZ 323
pechen--AZ 323
pelmeni--AZ 323
pendir--LP 255
pertama--AZ 324
peshmak--LP 255
piaz--AC xix
pide--AZ 324
pideh--AC xix
pilaf--AC xix
pilav--AZ 324
piti--AZ 324, LP 255
pirozhki--AZ 324
pirzola--AZ 324
piva--AZ 324, LP 192
pkhali--GEO 81, LP 87
plaki--AC xix
plov--AZ 324, LP 254
pomidor--AZ 324
porov--AC xix
prinz--AC xix
prinzov pilaf--AC xix
pure--AZ 324
puri--AZ 324, GEO 81, GeoF 211
qatiq--AZ 324, LP 255 (quatab)
qovurma--AZ 324
qoz--AZ 324
qulyas--AZ 324
ragu--AZ 324
raki--AC xix, AZ 324
rechel--AC xix
revani--AC xx
rheyma--AZ 324
rhingkale--AZ 324
riba--AZ 324
rtveli--GeoF 211
rulet--AZ 324
sabsi--AZ 324
salata--AC xx
satsivi--AZ 324, GEO 81, GeoF 211
satsnakheli--GeoF 211
sebzeli kebab--AZ 324
semichki--AZ 324
shalgam--AZ 324
shamama--AZ 324
shashlyk--AZ 324, LP 49
shchi--AZ 324
shekerbura--LP 255
shirin--AZ 324
shish--AC xx
shish kebab--AC xx
shishboereg--AC xx
shkemeruli--AZ 324
shorba--AZ 324
shor gogal--AZ 324
shurpa--AZ 324
simit--AC xx
sini kufta--AC xx
sirom--AZ 324
sokh--AC xx
sokhov dolma--AC xx
soorj--AC xx
sosiska--AZ 324
soudjookh--AC xx
soyutma--AZ 324
spanakh--AC xx
suchush--LP 191
sucuk--AZ 325
suluguni--AZ 325, GeoF 211, LP 87 (sulguni)
sumak--AZ 325, LP 255 (sumax)
sup (suplar)--AZ 325
susam--AC xx
susamov khumoreghen--AC xx
suzma--AZ 325
tabaka--AZ 325, GeoF 211
taheen--AC xx
tamada--GeoF 211
tan--AC xx
tandir--AZ 325
tarama--AC xx
tarhun/tarkhuni--AZ 325
tass kebab--AC xx
tatara--AZ 325
tava-ati--AZ 325
tavuk--AZ 325
tika--AZ 325, LP 255 (tika kebob)
tkemali--AZ 325
tkhemali--GEO 81, GeoF 211, LP 87 (tkemali)
tklapi--GeoF 211
tolma--GeoF 211
tomates--AC xx
tomatesov--AC xx
tone--GeoF 211
topik--AC xx
tourshi--AC xx
toyug/tojug--AZ 325
tsitsmati--GeoF 211
tsoug--AC xx
tsougov plaki--AC xx
tum--AZ 325
turac--AZ 325
turlu guevej--AC xxi
tutovka--AZ 325
tutum--AC xxi
tutumov rechel--AC xxi
tvorog--AZ 325
ukha--AZ 325
ungouyz--AC xxi
ungouyzov khumoreghen--AC xxi
vosp--AC xxi
vospov kheyma--AC xxi
xash (khash, khashi, hash)--AZ 325
xiyar--AZ 325
xot dog (hot dog)--AZ 325
yalanchi dolma--AC xxi
yarpag dolmasi--AZ 325
yerigamoonk--AC xxi
yevaylen--AC xxi
yumurta--AZ 325
zharkoe--AZ 325
zirinj--AZ 325
zogol--AZ 325


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sun Jun  2 15:13:05 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 11:13:05 -0400
Subject: 1882 Phonetic Happy New Year
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.111305.0400.>

While browsing the American Memory section of the Library of Congress I came
across this mildly interesting 1882 New Year's poem in phonetic form, based
on Witmer's phonetic alphabet.

The poem:
http://tinyurl.com/abu

The phonetic alphabet:
http://tinyurl.com/abw

--

Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
http://www.worldnewyork.org/
646 296 2260


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  2 15:15:52 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 11:15:52 -0400
Subject: Linguists like to argue!?
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.111552.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The idea that language was somehow "invented" (like the clothespin or the condom) rather than generated by the evolution of the species (like the bipedal gate)is in itself "preposterous."
>
>James A. Landau writes:
>
>Someone who wishes to argue that IE is unrelated to other language families
>must then, by my analysis, argue that the predecessors of the PIE speakers
>INVENTED language sometime shortly after the END of the Ice Age, with no
>input from the proto-Basques etc.  who were their neighbors in the late Ice
>Age.  (Perhaps the proto-Basques etc. independently invented language after
>the end of the Ice Age as well).  I find this to be a preposterously late
>date for the invention of language, considering that Cro-Magnon man was
>creating cave art DURING the Ice Age, and I can't imagine Cro-Magnon man
>inventing art before having language.
>


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Sun Jun  2 17:28:33 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 18:28:33 +0100
Subject: 1882 Phonetic Happy New Year
In-Reply-To: <B91FAE41.4482%gbarrett@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.182833.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Sunday, June 2, 2002 11:13 am -0400 Grant Barrett
<gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG> wrote:

> While browsing the American Memory section of the Library of Congress I
> came across this mildly interesting 1882 New Year's poem in phonetic
> form, based on Witmer's phonetic alphabet.
>
> The poem:
> http://tinyurl.com/abu

Does this mean that the w in 'two' was pronounced, or is that a spelling
error in the phonetically transcribed poem?  (where 'twu' with a macron
over the 'u' is 'two')

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  2 18:17:08 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 14:17:08 EDT
Subject: Dragon Naturally Speaking ("His wife could eat no lien")
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.141708.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Mark Mandel types might be interested in the article in today's NEW YORK
POST, 2 June 2002, pg. 30 (www.nypost.com).

SPOKEN:  Jack Sprat could eat no fat, his wife could eat no lean.  And so
betwixt the two of them, they licked the platter clean.

IBM ViaVoice Pro USB Edition, Release 9:  Jack sprat could eat no thought his
wife could eat no we.  And so betwixt the two of them they licked the platter
clean.

ScanSoft Dragon Naturally Speaking 6:  Jackson Miss Brad to the eat no fact
his wife could eat no lien.  And so what it twixt the two of them they licked
the plotter clean.

   4 1/2 errors, on average, per sentence!
   "The Hollywood Harrys" are mentioned in a box on page 11 in the Woody
Allen lawsuit story.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  2 20:03:31 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 16:03:31 EDT
Subject: Linguists like to argue!?
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.160331.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/02/2002 1:42:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:

> Most of James Landau's proposal is at least plausible, if not very well
>  grounded in evidence.

"Not very well grounded" is praising with faint damns.  I was suggesting
possibilities (i.e. thinking out loud) for topics on which I have no hard
evidence at all.

>However, the paragraph I retained below is straight
>  straw man, or maybe just straight man.

I'm a little surprised that of all the items in my "proposal" you would pick
that paragraph to rebut.  I was at that point building a logical (though
quite tenous) chain of arguments that IE was necessarily related to
Finno-Ugrian, Semitic, and/or Basque, and I had to dispose of the argument
that IE was invented (no, better to say "came into existence") AFTER the
glaciers had started retreating from Northern Europe.

But yes you are right, the paragraph in question does set up a straw man
argument.  Being an amateur, I have never encountered any theories as to what
early Europeans spoke during the latter parts of the Ice Ages, so I tried to
imagine the possible theories.

     James A. Landau (the "A" stands for "Amateur")


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  2 20:36:04 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 16:36:04 EDT
Subject: Evliya Efendi's 17th Century Travels (continued)
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.163604.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Continuing from where I left off.

Pg. 121:  They bake for noby else but the Janissaries, unless it be for the
poor, to whom they distribute black loaves of bread called (fodula).

Pg. 122:  The Cracknel-bakers (chorekjian),* two hundred shops and as many
men.
*_Chorek_ is a kind of butter-cake covered with sesamum.

Pg. 122:  The Pastry-cooks (Borekjian),* two hundred shops and men.
*_Borek_ is a kind of pastry or pie.

Pg. 122:  The Bakers of the paste, called Kah,...
The Bakers of the paste, called Ghurabieh,...
The Bakers of the bread, called Semid,...
The Bakers of Kataif, a sort of excellent macaroni made of almonds with
sugar, one hundred men, with fifty shops.
The Bakers of the kind of paste, called Sehrieh,...
The Bakers of the fritters, called Lokma,...
The Bakers of the sweet cakes, called Gozelmeh,...

Pg. 123:  In the shops of the Lokmaji and Gozlemehji, a Jew is appointed as
inspector, because Jews only eat cakes and fritters baked in oil, and Moslems
those baked in butter.

Pg. 137:  Coffee-houses are houses of confusion.  Coffee has been by law
declared illicit in the great collections of fetwas, called Bezazieh and
Tartar-khanieh, wherein every thing that is burnt is declared to be illegal
food; this is also the case with burnt bread.  Sherbet, milk, tea, badian,
salep, and almond-cream are all more wholesome than coffee.

Pg. 143:  The Curd-merchants (Yoghurdjian). ...
The Merchants of the cheese called Telmeh Penir.

Pg. 148:  The Merchants of salted beef (Jelb-keshan Pasdirmajian) are six
hundred, and no less wealthy merchants than the former.  The greatest part of
them are Infidels of Moldavia and Wallachia.  Their stands, called Saya and
Ekrek, have been mentioned before.  They bring, about the day of Kassem (S.
Demetrius), three hundred thousand oxen for the provision of Constantinople,
of which they make Pasdirma (salted beef).
(Pastrami?--ed.) (...)
   The Merchants of dried salted beef (Tajirani Pasdirma) four hundred menb,
with an hundred shops.  THeir shops are outside of the Wooden gate at Galata
and Top-khanah and everywhere else.  They sell dried salted beef, and adorn
their shops with hams and slices of the such kinds of meats, and cry to the
beholders, "Take Pasdirma."

Pg. 149:  The Prophet himself came into  his shop at Mecca to eat of the dish
called heriseh, which is mentioned in the tradition by the word of the
Prophet.  "Heriseh is the Lord of dishes."

Pg. 150:  Vinegar is praised in the tradition of the Prophet: if there is no
vinegar in a house it is said, that there is no blessing either.

Pg. 150:  The adage says, _El-mumen holwi wel fassek turshi_, "The faithful
are  sweet and the wicked sour," and again, _Habb el-holwi min el-iman_, "The
love of sweetmeats proceeds from Faith."

Pg. 151:  Their first patron is Adam, who cooked the soup called
Baba-chorbassi, the father's soup; the second Abraham; the third the Prophet,
who on the day of the conquest of Mecca cooked himself soup and the dish
called Heriseh, serving at the same time all the Moslims.

Pg. 152:  The Cooks of Saffrom Pilaw (erdejian) are thirty men, with fifteen
shops. ...
   The Roasting Cooks (Burganjian)...
   The Stewers (Yakhnjian), who sell Yakhni (stewed meat). ...
   The Farcers (Dolmajian) are one hundred and fifty men, with fifty shops.
Their patron saint is Sheab Rumi, bred up by Selman, and buried at
Kaissarieh, near Amr-ul-kais, the poet.  They sell all kinds of dolmas
(long-shaped pumpkins filled with meat, or minced meat simply wrapped up in
leaves) as, Kabak-dolma, Yaprak-dolma, Mumbar-dolma, Soghan-dolma,
Lahana-dolma.
(This translation occurs about 150 years later, but it would still be another
50 years before OED would record "dolma"!--ed.)

Pg. 153:  The Almond-cream-makers (Paludehjian).  Their patron was bred up by
Selman.  They pass selling their creams and crying their sweet cakes
(rahat-lokum or rahat-ul-kholkum), which they say sharpens the sight.
(See prior posts for "Turkish Delight"--ed.)

Pg. 153:  The Saladmakers (Salotajian) are three hundred men, all Greeks,
with two hundred shops.  Their patron is not known to me; they ornament their
shops and cry "Salad well oiled."
   The Spinach merchants (Ispanakjian)...
   The Sausage-makers (Sujukjian) are thirty men, with ten shops.  Their
patron is not known.  They adorn their shops with well-seasoned sausages of
meat.
   The Merchants of Khoshab (a kind of sherbet), are seven hundred men, with
five hundred shops.

Pg. 154:  The Sherbet-merchants (Sherbetjian)...
   The Cryers of warm almond-cream (Paludeh)...
   The Almond-paste makers (Badamli Kufterjian)...

Pg. 155:  These paste-makers put nuts and almonds on a string, which they
pass through almond jelly (paludeh), and make a kind of paste as delicious as
that made at Aintab.  They adorn their shops with all kinds of pastes
(kufter), and pass clad in armour. ...
   The Salep-merchants (Th'lebjian)...
   The Merchants of warm milk (Sudjian sukhanan)...
   The Sellers of the cream, called Mohallebi (Mohallebijian) have no shops,
but like the former sell mohallebi in cans heated by fire.  Mohalleb is an
herb which grows on the highest alps, and which ground and boiled with sugar
and pure milk is sold as cream.  It is a fortifying purgative of bile and
phlegm, and is a delicious sherbet.
(Again, how could OED not have entered something old?  Is it an infidel word
they just didn't like?  Don't OED editors ever visit Turkey??--ed.) ...
   The Syrup-makers (Ighdajian)...
   The Merchants of the syrup Ighda...

Pg. 156:  The Grape-pressers (Degirmenjiani uzum)...
   The SNow and Ice merchants (Karji) have an establishment near the
vegetable-market, where the chief of the Imperial ice-porters resides summer
and winter.  Three hundred boatmen under his direction are always on
excursions to the mountains of Katirli, Modania, and Olympus.  They embark
the snow, ice, and fresh water, from these mountains, and carry them to the
Imperial kitchen, to the confectio9nary, to the Harem, and to the houses of
the grand vezir and other great men.
(Ice cream?--ed.)

Pg. 157:  A great contest about precedency took place between the fish-cooks
and sugar-bakers (Halvaji). ...  To this reproach the Halvajis added the
praise of the Halva, grounded on the praise contained in the Koran of grapes
and honey.  It is of the Halva, that the Prophet (who was very fond of
sweetmeats) said, "The love of sweetmeats comes from the faith," and again,
"The faithful are sweet, the wicked sour."

Pg. 158:  They fit up their shops on litters with all kinds of Halvas and
robs, as white Halva, Moon Halva, Date Halva, Almond Halva, Ketan Halva, and
Ghazilar Halva, which brings the water into the mouth os the boys of the
town, who devour it with their eyes. ...
   The Merchants of the confections, called 'Akideh ('Akidehjian),...
   The Fishermen (Balikjian)...

Pg. 159:  There are three Dalians for catching the Xiphias, the fourth is for
catching the Kalkan-balighi (Rombo) at the place called the Black Stones, and
the fifth at Terkos for catching the fish Kurek-balighi.  The other Dalians
are established on both sides of the canal of Constantinople for catching the
Scombro, Palamedes, Kefal, Pachur, Palaria, Lufer, and many thousands sorts
of fish, the names of which are unknown to me; they give the tenth to the
Balik-emini.

Pg. 160:  The sort of oysters called lakoz are very strengthening; some eat
them roasted in the fire on iron pans.

Pg. 161:  The Pilaw, made with shell-fish and pure oil, called Midia-pilaw,
is also a delicious dish.  But above all, praise be to the Scombro, Nilufer,
and Rombo, because the man who eats them is fit to procreate his kind.
Praise also be to the Kefal-balighi (Cephalus), of which it may be said, "I
eat the fish to its head."

Pg. 161:  The proverb says, "Who makes the net shall not mend it, who spreads
it shall not end it, and who eats the fish shall not feel it."

Pg. 201:  They are clad from head to foot in cotton Muvahadis (a kind of
short dress) Ferrajis, drawers, turbans, clubs, hatchets, and muskets, all
made of cotton.

Pg. 202:  The Manufacturer of the caps, called Kelleposh, are two hundred and
five men, with one hundred and five shops.

Pg. 214:  The Coffee-merchants (Attaran Kahve) are five hundred men, with
three hundred shops.  ... I don't know their Sheikh, because coffee is a new
invention, but the drinking it comes from Sheikh Shadeli.

Pg. 227:  The Makers of the instrument Musikar (a wind instrument) are
fifteen men, with six shops. ...
   The Makers of the instrument Cheng (Chengjian) are ten men, with two
shops; it was invented by Pythagoras to solace Salomon.

Pg. 228:  Of the great Duduk (a kind of pipe). ...
   Of the Dilli Duduk. ...
   Of the Arabic Duduk. ...
   Of the crying Duduk. ...
   Of the Hungarian Duduk. ...
   Of the Tent Duduk. ...
   Of the Mizmar Duduk. ...
   Of the Danguid Duduk. ...
   Of the Tolum Duduk. ...
(As I said, this instrument is all over the Caucasus.  It's unthinkable that
there's no OED entry--ed.)
   Of the Chighaneh.
   Of the Chalpara.
   Of the Zummar.
   Of the Kefeji (a kind of half drum).

Pg. 245:  The Sellers of Buza (fermented liquor of barley) are one thousand
and five men, with three hundred shops.  The first who contrived to make Buza
was the Tatar Salssal, who was killed at Akkerman, by Malek-ushtur with an
arrow. ...  The excess of drinking it, brings on the gout and dropsy, and the
proverb says;--"That dogs are no friends to Buza-drinkers."  The reason is
that Buza drinkers being liable to the above-said diseases, always carry a
stick in the hand, which is no means of recommending themselves to the favour
of dogs.  The Buza-sellers are for the greater part Tatar gipsies.

Pg. 246:  Since I was born, I never tasted in my life, of fermented
beverages, or prohibited things, neither of tobacco, nor coffee, nor tea, nor
Badian, nor Kishrun (a beverage made of coffee-husks), nor Tha'leb (Salep),
nor Mahleb, nor Paysuna, mor Moduna, nor wine, nor Kirsh-water (Wishnab), nor
pomegranate wine, nor date-wine, nor mulberry-wine, nor melon-wine, nor
cocoa-nut-wine, nor Awishle-wine (?) nor Ipme-wine nor Assilma-wine (of
suspended grapes), nor Banan wine, nor Beduin-wine, nor triple-wine
(Muthelleth), nor Muscat-wine, nor Fishfish-wine, nor Nardenk-wine, nor
Bozun-wine, nor Heml-wine, nor Arak, nor Kulfesh (iced cooled wine), nor
Khorlika, nor Firma, nor Sudina, nor Pelonia, nor Khardalie (mustard), nor
Balsji, nor Tustaghasa, nor Diamond-water, nor Minjel-water, nor beer, nor
cinnamon-water, nor sulpher-water, nor goidurme, nor opium, nor Beresh, nor
Nushdar, nor Jewarish, nor Mokim, nor Bairampasha, nor Sheranie, nor Benjlik,
nor Kara-pehlivan, nor love-pills (Habbi-ushaki), nor Ferah, nor Kakunji
electuary, nor Jihan-bakhsh electuary, nor Kaissun electuary, nor Misrune
electuary, nor philosopher's electuary, nor Pirejan electuary, nor Dilkuswha
electuary.
(Boy, I'm glad this guy wasn't on my tour--ed.)

Pg. 247:  The Sellers of Subaya (Subayajian)...
   The Mead (oxymel) makers (Balsujian)...
   The Arak-makers (Arakjian) are three hundred men, with one hundred shops.
It was first invented in Poland, where they extract spirits from all kinds of
plants.  The two kinds of brandies called Golefsin and Khorlika, are the most
noxious of all.  It is sin to get intoxicated with these kinds of Araks, but
to taste one or two drops is not illegal (Haram).
(Useful for the word "brandy"?--ed.)
   The Makers of the triple wine (Muthelletjian).  It was composed first by
Imam Zafer, and is made in the following way...

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 1:  He invited me to be his companion according to the maxim, "First the
companion, then the road"...

Pg. 17:  _The Eatables, Beverage and Fruits of Brussa_.
   The first is white bread of the kind called Sumun, which is as good as the
best (Pg. 18--ed.) of Constaninople; tghen that sort of bread called Chakil,
like white roses; the Gozlemeh, the Kerdeh, a kind of roast mutton dressed
over a stove (Tennur).  The sheep which are very fat come from Mount Olympus.
 The white Halva of Brussa is also celebrated.
   The beverages are the delicious water of the head fountain Bunar-bashi and
seventeen other principal spring; excellent coffee from Yemen, very good
buza, the sherbet Khanedan-beg (smiling Prince), that of Tierli-oghli,
Karan-filli and Shujab.

Pg. 47:  ...every Friday a Zerde Pilaw, and Yakhni (stewed meat)...

Pg. 48:  _Eatable and Beverages_.
...
   The fish which are worthy of mention are Lorek-belighi, Kefal-balighi
(Cephalus), the Kalkan-balighi (Rhombus), which if eaten by women renders
them prolific; the fish called Kiziljeh-tekerbalik, with a red head and
delicious to taste; the gold fish, the Sgombro which is taken in the season
Erbain (forty days).  But the most precious of all...is the Khamsi-balighi...

Pg. 49:  If the head of this fish, Khamsi-balighi, pronounced Khapsi-balighi,
is burnt, serpents and other venomous reptiles are killed by the smoke.  The
people use it during forty days in all their dishes, to which it gives a
peculiar flavour, it is thus used with yakhni, roasts, pies, and baklava
(mixed pies), a  dish called pilegi is made of it in the following manner,
the fish is first cleaned, then cut into slices on which is laid parsley and
celery, then another layer of fish, the best oil is then poured on it, and it
is cooked over the fire for one hour, it thus becomes quite a luminous dish,
which may be said to illuminate those who eat it.

Pg. 100:  From trhe district of Kaghla comes a sort of corn called
Dardevedishi, of which most excellent bread is made, called Levasha, Kerde,
Chakil...
   The sherbets called Khardalie, Buldakli, are exported into Persia; a
pleasant white beverage.

Pg. 113:  They make two kinds of pies here, one of chicken and the other of a
sort of vegetable called Cheresh; white and excellebnt pastry (Chorek), white
bread called Kolaj, and meat roasted in stoves, &c.  Their beverages are
Sherbet or Ribbes, and excellent Buza.

Pg. 137:  The provisions consist of the white bread called Kerde, and Sumun,
cracknels, pastry, roasts, chicken pies, forty different kinds of pilaw with
spices, the Herisse and sweetmeat, Palude.

Pg. 138:  Every year on the tenth of the month Moharrem, being the feast of
A'ashura, all the population of the town assemble under tents in this large
place, and during three days and nights cook many thousand dishes of A'ashura
(a kind of hotch-potch), in remembrance of the martyrs of Kerbela; these
dishes are distributed with an abundance of sugar-sherbet...

(How could OED not include these terms?  How could OED not use hundreds of
cites from this book?  Copies are in many libraries and the book is 170 years
old!  And articles like that "Ode to OED" discuss trivialities like
"mindfuck"!  Amazing--ed.)


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sun Jun  2 23:47:51 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 19:47:51 -0400
Subject: Dragon Naturally Speaking ("His wife could eat no lien")
In-Reply-To: <143.f58daa6.2a2bbb24@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.194751.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 2 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

#    Mark Mandel types might be interested in the article in today's NEW YORK
#POST, 2 June 2002, pg. 30 (www.nypost.com).
#
#SPOKEN:  Jack Sprat could eat no fat, his wife could eat no lean.  And so
#betwixt the two of them, they licked the platter clean.
        [...]

#   4 1/2 errors, on average, per sentence!

I believe that Clarke's Law says, "Any sufficiently advanced technology
is indistinguishable from a rigged demo." There should be a corollary:
"Any technology, no matter how advanced, can be made to look bad by a
rigged demo." This is such a case. What would you expect from dictating
this text to, say, a literate twelve-year-old who had not been raised
with nursery rhymes or any other texts earlier than, oh, 1970? "Betwixt"
is certainly not in the initial active vocabulary of either program. In
NatSpeak that means it cannot be recognized unless it's in a text that
the user has specified as a training sample, or until after the user has
corrected to it; thenceforward it will be in the active voc and
recognizeable, including in subsequent sessions. (This is something of a
simplification.) VV works similarly.

"Platter" is probably not in initial active voc either, and while "lean"
probably is, I expect that it is marked only as a verb, or maybe a verb
and an adjective, not a noun. And forget about the surname "Sprat", or
even the common noun "sprat" (a kind of fish) in initial active voc.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large
   former Senior Linguist, Dragon Systems, Inc.


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Mon Jun  3 01:18:52 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 20:18:52 -0500
Subject: Linguists like to argue!?
In-Reply-To: <3d.1f129941.2a2bd413@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.201852.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James,

I didn't pick other paragraphs because they were clearly speculative and
kinda fun.  What struck me in the paragraph in question was the idea that
IEists reject such relationships.

BTW, it's not logically necessary that IE was related to any of the groups
you list.  Basque, e.g., really has no known relatives.  We know that before
the spread of IE into Europe Basque covered a much larger area.  The Vosges
Mountains in eastern France have a Basque name, and there are other Basque
toponyms in Western Europe.  Larry Trask has pretty well put paid to the
arguments for relationships between Basque and NW Caucasian or other
Caucasian groups.  The linguistic complexity of the Caucasus, at least five
unrelated families, suggest, as Johanna Nichols has argued, that this is a
relic area that reflects multiple population movements.  The problems with
claims of distant relationship with Uralic, Afro-Asiatic, or Dravidian, to
mention the most frequent claims, include that, as Donald Ringe has argued,
the sound correspondences attested do not rise above the statistical level
of chance resemblence, that we can't clearly distinguish inheritance from
borrowing at that time depth, and that frequently the putative
correspondences simply aren't regular enough to base any reconstruction on.
All that said, people like Bomhard and Greenberg have demonstrated enough
correspondences in inflectional and derivational morphology to make claims
of genetic relationship impossible to dismiss out of hand, and Greenberg's
claims are much more far-reaching than Bomhard's, including a lot more
families in his Eurasian.  But whether Eurasian goes back to the last Ice
Age is doubtful.  We're stuck with the reality that our comparative methods
simply can't reliable take us back much more than 10-15k years at the
extreme outside, and a lot of comparativists would hesitate to go beyond
10k.  So until we have new methods that work, perhaps of Nichols' sort,
we're stuck with careful speculation.

Herb

You wrote:

I'm a little surprised that of all the items in my "proposal" you would pick
that paragraph to rebut.  I was at that point building a logical (though
quite tenous) chain of arguments that IE was necessarily related to
Finno-Ugrian, Semitic, and/or Basque, and I had to dispose of the argument
that IE was invented (no, better to say "came into existence") AFTER the
glaciers had started retreating from Northern Europe.

But yes you are right, the paragraph in question does set up a straw man
argument.  Being an amateur, I have never encountered any theories as to
what
early Europeans spoke during the latter parts of the Ice Ages, so I tried to
imagine the possible theories.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  3 07:50:27 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 03:50:27 EDT
Subject: Madrasah (15th century); Frenchification (1802)
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUN.2002.035027.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MADRASAH

MEMOIRS OF A JANISSARY
by Konstantin Mihailovic (b. ca. 1435)
translated by Benjamin Stolz
published under the auspices of the Joint Committee on Eastern EUrope,
American Council of Learned Societies
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
1975

Pg. 69:  Their temple is called a _metrese_, like our monastery.

Pg. 215 Note:  Konstantin's "The order which they call Dervishes" shows that
he did not grasp the generic meaning of the word; and "_medrese_" denotes an
Islamic religious school, not necessarily monastic.

(The revised OED has 1616 for "madrasah"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
FRENCHIFICATION

EXTRACTS OF THE JOURNALS AND CORRESPONDENCE OF MISS (MARY--ed.) BERRY
FROM THE YEAR 1783 to 1852
edited by Lady Theresa Lewis
in three volumes
London: Longmans, Green, and Co.
1865

Pg. 39 (1783):  ...the higher they jump the more _bravos_ or _bravas_ they
receive from the delighted pit.
(OED has 1761, then 1817 for "bravo"--ed.)

Pg. 132 (1784): Immediately below the summit we stopped at a chalet, a number
of wooden huts near together, resembling both outside and inside the views
and descriptions of houses in the South Sea Islands.
(See past "chalet" posts--ed.)

Pg. 236 (1790):  I asked in vain for (Pg. 237--ed.) her name; she was La
Prima Donna, and nobody knew more of her.
(OED has 1782, then 1812 for "prima donna"--ed.)

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 146 (1802):  ...I believe the expenses are defrayed by a club of men.  We
were told here we should see _les nouveau riches_,
(OED has 1813 for "nouveau riche"--ed.)

Pg. 190 (1802):  A _debutante_ (Mdlle. le Court) performed Amenaide very
badly indeed.
(OED has 1801 for "debutante"--ed.)

Pg. 252 (1803):  Chambery seemed neither the better nor the worse for its
"_Frenchification_."
(OED has 1834 for "Frenchification"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
CHOEREK

A JOURNEY TO ARZRUM
by Alexander Pushkin
translated by Birgitta Ingemanson
Ardis, Ann Arbor (MI)
1974

   This journey was made in 1829.  The translation was made about 1940,

Pg. 40:  The dark-eyed boys sing, jump about and somersault; the women dance
the _lezginka_.

Pg. 51:  Halfway, in an Armenian village, built in the mountains on the bank
of a little river, instead of dinner I ate the cursed Armenian bread,
_churek_, which is baked in the shape of a flat cake, half mixrdd with Ashes,
and for which the Turkish prisoner in the Darial Pass longed so.

Pg. 103 Notes):  _Lezginka_--"A courtshiip dance of the Caucasus mountains in
which the woman moves with graceful (Pg. 104--ed.)  ease while the man dances
wildly about her. (Eebster).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
FIRST CLASS

MISS JEMIMA'S SWISS JOURNAL
by Jemima Morrell
Routledge/Thoemmes Press, London
1998, reprinted from 1961 edition

Pg. 5:  The members of the Junior United Alpine Club, remembering the German
proverb that "None but Englishmen and madmen travel first class", were all
second-class passengers...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
SERVIAN PROVERBS

SERVIA OF THE SERVIANS
by Chedo Mijatovisch
London: Sir Isaac Pitnam & Sons
1915

Pg. 146:
   CHAPTER VIII
   SELECTION FROM THE SERVIAN PEOPLE'S PROVERBS

1.  If you wish to know what a man is, place him in authority.
5.  Better ever than never.
6.  Better something than nothing.

(100 Proverbs are here, for Fred Shapiro-types--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
   NETS in four.  Jack Nicholson gets sent off to a mental institution.


From mrgjb at SOVER.NET  Mon Jun  3 03:33:14 2002
From: mrgjb at SOVER.NET (Ruth Barton)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 20:33:14 -0700
Subject: Bangor Brownies (1908); Maine Sardines (1902)
In-Reply-To: <1aa.19bbaae.2a0082ea@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.203314.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You tease,  after reading through all that and not one recipe for all those
goodies!!!!!  SHAME!! Ruth






At 7:29 PM -0400 4/30/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>"Bangor, ME?  Why, I don't even know her!"
>--joke as old as the hills, but the "ME" is fairly recent with postal codes
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>---------------------------------------------
>BANGOR BROWNIES
>
>LOWNEY'S COOK BOOK
>prepared and revised by
>Maria Willett Howard
>Revised Edition
>The Walter M. Lowney Co., Boston
>1908
>
>INDEX
>Brownies, Bangor, 261
>   Lowney's, 278.
>
>
>    I went to the Library of Congress to look through the BANGOR DAILY NEWS,
>starting 1902, but did NOT find "Bangor Brownies."  The above "revised" book
>is 1908, but should be at least 1907.  I read the BDN through 1905.
>   DARE doesn't provide any help at all.
>   The web has various hits for Mildred "Brownie" Schrumpf, and she possibly
>will have a bio in the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD.  She was born in
>1903, graduated from the University of Maine in 1925 with a B.S. in home
>economics, and wrote a weekly column in the BANGOR DAILY NEWS from 1951-1993.
> She authored THE FLAVOR OF MAINE (1976) and MEMORIES FROM BROWNIE'S KITCHEN
>(1989).  However, she did not coin "brownie" as a toddler.
>
>15 February 1902, BANGOR DAILY NEWS, pg. 11, cols. 1-2:
>NICE THINGS MADE FROM CHOCOLATE. (...)
>CONVALESCENTS' DRINK...
>PIERRE BOLT'S CHOCOLATE...
>EGG CHOCOLATE...
>CHOCOLATE CUSTARDS...
>BAVARIAN CHOCOLATE CREAM...
>CHOCOLATE CANDIES...
>CHOCOLATE CAKE...
--
Ruth Barton
mrgjb at sover.net
Westminster, VT


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  3 14:50:31 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 10:50:31 EDT
Subject: Madrasah...; Stedman medical words
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUN.2002.105031.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

KVAS

Konstantin Mihailovic (b. ca. 1435)
MEMOIRS OF A JANISSARY
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
1975

Pg. 3:  They celebrate for three days and go about nevertheless without
drinking wine nor having any _kvas_.

(Forget this one--I was tired.  OED has 1553, then 1608 for "kvass."  The
transliteration on the opposite page has "kwasu"...The copyright page on the
book doesn't indicate it's older than 1963, but MISS JEMIMA'S SWISS JOURNAL,
a Thomas Cook tour book, has a "26th June 1863" date on page 5--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
STEDMAN MEDICAL WORDS

   The good people at Amazon.com have sent me an alert for a Stedman medical
word book.  Thomas Lathrop Stedman is given as the editor of all these books:

STEDMAN'S PSYCHIATRY/NEUROLOGY/NEUROSURGERY WORDS
STEDMAN'S ABBREVIATION, ACRONYMS & SYMBOLS
STEDMAN'S MEDICAL SPELLER
STEDMAN'S SURGERY WORDS
STEDMAN'S GI & GU WORDS, WITH NEPHROLOGY WORDS
STEDMAN'S PATHOLOGY & LAB MEDICINE WORDS
STEDMAN'S EQUIPMENT WORDS
STEDMAN'S ONCOLOGY WORDS
STEDMAN'S PLASTIC SURGERY/ENT/DENTISTRY WORDS

   Thomas Lathrop Stedman died in 1938.
   For a dead man, he sure is one very busy editor!


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Jun  4 01:39:33 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 20:39:33 -0500
Subject: "toke the wild hair"
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUN.2002.203933.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    The person who asked me about "toke the wild hair" (Linda) has
written to her distant relative (Theresa) asking about Theresa's use
of "toke the wild hair."
Below my signoff are Linda's latest e-mail to me and Theresa's response to her.

     Theresa sees "toke the wild hair" as a Cajun French expression.
But does such an expression actually exist in Cajun French? Perhaps
better: "Toke" means "inhale a joint or pipe of cannabis," and
according to Tony Thorne's _Dictionary of Contemporary Slang_, "this
has been a standard term in the marihuana and hashish smokers'
vocabulary since the late 1960s."

     "Wild hair" would then be the fibers of cannabis. So "toke the
wild hair" as used by Theresa ("you never thought about what you were
going to do, you just do it without thought of anything") possibly
referred originally to the spontaneous dropping of one's everyday
tasks to enjoy a smoke of marihuana/etc.

Gerald Cohen



(letter from Linda to me):

>
>Here's Theresa's reply to my questioning the use of "toke the wild hair."
>
>It is as I suspected - it means to just drop what one is doing and take off
>spontaneously to do something unrelated. ...
>
>
>Linda
>



(letter from Theresa to Linda, referred to just above):

>
>Linda,
>
>YOU are so funny!!!!!!  The phase "toke the wild hair" is a French saying.
>I have lived by hearing people say I toke the wild hair and did this or
>that????
>When you use this terminalogy it means that you never thought about what you
>were going to do you just do it, without thought of anything?  And really
>not to worry about the outcome of what you were going to do.   The
>French people use this especially in the shrimping, seafood
>industry.  As you can see I really dont use it often.  It is fun to
>use it sometimes.  The cajun people have a vocabulary of their own.
>It is a mixture of Prussian French and Cajun Louisiana French plus
>mixed with English, now you have a combination of some saying. In my
>case mix some Spanish in there and now you really have a
>combination. ...

>  Love Theresa


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Jun  4 03:23:50 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 23:23:50 -0400
Subject: "toke the wild hair"
In-Reply-To: <p04310100b921a17e7de2@[131.151.65.135]>
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUN.2002.232350.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ISTM that "toke" could be a misspelling/mishearing of "took". From the
informant, Theresa:

#>YOU are so funny!!!!!!  The phase "toke the wild hair" is a French saying.
#>I have lived by hearing people say I toke the wild hair and did this or
#>that????
#>When you use this terminalogy it means that you never thought about what you
#>were going to do you just do it, without thought of anything?  And really
#>not to worry about the outcome of what you were going to do.  The
#>French people use this especially in the shrimping, seafood
#>industry.  As you can see I really dont use it often.  It is fun to
#>use it sometimes.  The cajun people have a vocabulary of their own.
#>It is a mixture of Prussian French and Cajun Louisiana French plus
#>mixed with English, now you have a combination of some saying. In my
#>case mix some Spanish in there and now you really have a
#>combination. ...

Note, "it means that you never thought about...", past tense, consistent
with "toke" as = "took". Note also in general the somewhat erratic
English, and the implication in the last line that Theresa's native
language is Spanish, which makes the mishearing/misspelling more
plausible than it would be in a native English-speaker. (And "Prussian"
French?! Maybe "Parisian"?)

I think the spelling "toke" has led us off on a wild goose chase, to
change the species of the beast: I still think this is a hare in origin.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large

On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote:

#>YOU are so funny!!!!!!  The phase "toke the wild hair" is a French saying.
#>I have lived by hearing people say I toke the wild hair and did this or
#>that????
#>When you use this terminalogy it means that you never thought about what you
#>were going to do you just do it, without thought of anything?  And really
#>not to worry about the outcome of what you were going to do.   The
#>French people use this especially in the shrimping, seafood
#>industry.  As you can see I really dont use it often.  It is fun to
#>use it sometimes.  The cajun people have a vocabulary of their own.
#>It is a mixture of Prussian French and Cajun Louisiana French plus
#>mixed with English, now you have a combination of some saying. In my
#>case mix some Spanish in there and now you really have a
#>combination. ...
#
#>  Love Theresa
#


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  4 03:50:57 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 23:50:57 -0400
Subject: Radishes & Tomatoes ("Reds")
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUN.2002.235057.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   We have our "apples" (red on the outside, white on the inside) and "oreos" (black on the outside, white on the inside).  I found the following interesting, but I don't know how widespread it was.

SIX PRISONS AND TWO REVOLUTIONS:
ADVENTURES IN TRANS-CAUCASIA AND ANATOLIA, 1920-1921
by Oliver Baldwin
Garden City, NY: Doubleday, Page & Company
1925

Pg. 192:
   "We must keep Communist discipline.  No perfect state can exist with people who forget brotherhood."
   He told us that the amount of "radishes" far (Pg. 193--ed.) outnumbered the "tomatoes," and when I asked what he meant, he replied that the former were only "red" on the outside, and the latter were "red" all through.


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Tue Jun  4 11:18:19 2002
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 07:18:19 -0400
Subject: Prussian French?
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.071819.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Theresa wrote
>The cajun people have a vocabulary of their own.
>It is a mixture of Prussian French and Cajun Louisiana French plus
>mixed with English, now you have a combination of some saying. In my
>case mix some Spanish in there and now you really have a
>combination. ...

Prussian French?
_________________________________
"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
--Albert Einstein


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Jun  4 12:01:18 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:01:18 -0400
Subject: Radishes & Tomatoes ("Reds")
In-Reply-To: <036FADF4.1F042605.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.080118.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Apparently very widespread. In Poland in the early 70's a riddle went this way:

Q. Why is Poland like a radish.

A. Because it has only a thin layer of red on the outside.

dInIs

>    We have our "apples" (red on the outside, white on the inside)
>and "oreos" (black on the outside, white on the inside).  I found
>the following interesting, but I don't know how widespread it was.
>
>SIX PRISONS AND TWO REVOLUTIONS:
>ADVENTURES IN TRANS-CAUCASIA AND ANATOLIA, 1920-1921
>by Oliver Baldwin
>Garden City, NY: Doubleday, Page & Company
>1925
>
>Pg. 192:
>    "We must keep Communist discipline.  No perfect state can exist
>with people who forget brotherhood."
>    He told us that the amount of "radishes" far (Pg. 193--ed.)
>outnumbered the "tomatoes," and when I asked what he meant, he
>replied that the former were only "red" on the outside, and the
>latter were "red" all through.

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  4 12:29:20 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:29:20 EDT
Subject: Swiss Cookery (Kuchli, the Right Stuff)
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.082920.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Quickly, some items during an unsuccessful roesti/raclette search.

AN OBERLAND CHALET
by Edith Elmer Wood
New York: Wessels & Bissel Co.
1910

Pg. 22:  It (honey--ed.) is the invariable accompaniment of the Swiss
breakfast, which consists for the rest of rolls and butter, coffee and milk.

Pg. 67:  But we felt it was proved that the quartette was of the "right
stuff" and could safely venture on a fortnight's pedestrian trip.

OUR LIFE IN THE SWISS HIGHLANDS
by John Addington Symonds and his daughter Margaret
second edition
London: Adam and Charles Black
1907
(first edition 1892?)

Pg. 136:  Pudding, as _Mehlspeisen_, of various sorts, completed the bill of
fare.  Among these, what the people call _Pitzokel_--that is, something like
thin pancakes cut into long narrow ribbands--was conspicuous.

Pg. 136:  An ancient pack of cards was then produced, and the evening was
spent in the thrilling pursuit of "Schwarzer Peter."

Pg. 260:  The board was tesselated with plates of birnen-brod or eier-brod,
kuchli and cheese and butter; and George stirred grampampuli in a mighty (Pg.
261--ed.) metal bowl.  For the uninitiated, it may be needful to explain
these Davos delicacies.  Birnen-brod is what the Scotch would call a "bun,"
or massive cake, composed of sliced pears, almonds, spices, and a little
flour.  Eier-brod is a saffron-coloured sweet bread, made with eggs; and
kuchli is a kind of pastry, crisp and flimsy, fashioned into various devices
of cross, star, and scroll.  Grampampuli is simply brandy burnt with sugar,
the most unsophisticated punch I ever drank from tumblers.


SWISS SUMMER
by Charles Graves
London: NIcholson & Watson Ltd.
1938

Pg. 15:  He told me to try the "Zugerrotel" (a kind of mullet) and cheese
fondu.

Pg. 46:  ...with wood mushrooms and pineapple _crepes_.

Pg. 54:  They have another specialty too.  This is _Bindenfleisch_.  It is
smoked and dried beef, dark red in colour, and cut like a wafer.

Pg. 95:  A _Knickerbein_ consists of cherry brandy, syrup, and egg yolk, and
certainly puts hair on your chest.  A longer and still more formidable drink
which they give you here is named after the Piz Aela (Hotel--ed.) itself.  It
is concocted of vanilla ice, chocolate ice, curacao, cognac, and kirsch.
Wow!

Pg. 121:  The _gerla_ is a huge wicker-work basket looking like an inverted
Chianti flask; the _zoccoli_ are the wooden clogs...

Pg. 247:  _Bernerplatte_--with its ham, sausages, boiled beef, sauerkraut and
potatoes.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Tue Jun  4 12:40:49 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:40:49 -0400
Subject: Formal Language for Analyzing Contracts
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.084049.0400.>

Nick Szabo has written a preliminary draft of a paper discussing a
programming-like language to analyze contracts. Among other things, he uses
a contract from Genoa, written June 23 in 1271, to demonstrate how it would
apply to damage clauses.

http://szabo.best.vwh.net/contractlanguage.html

--

Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
http://www.worldnewyork.org/
646 296 2260


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Tue Jun  4 12:55:01 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:55:01 -0400
Subject: Denial of Responsibility (DoR) Attacks
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.085501.0400.>

Coined for the computing world, but applicable in politics as well: Denial
of Responsbility (DoR) attacks, patterned after Denial of Service (DoS)
attacks.

http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/weblog/view/wlg/1500

"DoR attacks used to be of a simple, garden-variety type where a computer
manufacturer obscures the fact it has shipped a system with bugs (sometimes
known to the company in advance). More recent DoR attacks include the
inclusion of "cool features" that benefit only a few curious experimenters
but open the door to serious intrusions."


--

Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
http://www.worldnewyork.org/
646 296 2260


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Jun  4 12:59:56 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:59:56 -0400
Subject: "toke the wild hair"
In-Reply-To: <p04310100b921a17e7de2@[131.151.65.135]>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.085956.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I doubt that there is any marijuana reference here.

I still like "toke" = "took". Google search for "I toke the" turns up >100
hits where "toke" clearly means "took" ("toke the photo", "toke the
course", "toke the train", etc. etc.); only a few where "toke" = "smoke"!
Some of the items appear to be written by Germans, Swedes, Hollanders, etc.
("Toke" apparently was commonly written for "took" in Middle English, BTW.)

If one desires a foreign word, French "toqu?" = "crazy"/"infatuated" fits
fine. Or Spanish "tocar"/"toque" = "touch" (verb/noun) (probably the
ancestor of the Marijuana "toke" BTW), "tocado" = "crazy". (Cf. English
"smitten", "touched".)

But I think "wild hair" here is clearly English slang, and virtually
identical (in the sense "wild impulse/notion/whim") to a conventional usage
in general US English slang, so I prefer "toke" to be English too, even if
it's nonstandard/erroneous English ("toke the wild hair" = "took the wild
hair" in place of "got a wild hair" seems to me to be a natural for one
who's not a native Anglophone). As I said before, the origin of "wild hair"
in this sense is mysterious to me, and perhaps it was indeed once "wild
hare" or so.

-- Doug Wilson


From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Tue Jun  4 15:37:10 2002
From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 11:37:10 -0400
Subject: Denial of Responsibility (DoR) Attacks
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.113710.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I suppose then this web page models a type of "Assertion of Entitlement"
(AoE) attack?

http://www.microsoft.com/freedomtoinnovate/default.asp


Grant Barrett wrote:
>
> Coined for the computing world, but applicable in politics as well: Denial
> of Responsbility (DoR) attacks, patterned after Denial of Service (DoS)
> attacks.
>
> http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/weblog/view/wlg/1500
>
> "DoR attacks used to be of a simple, garden-variety type where a computer
> manufacturer obscures the fact it has shipped a system with bugs (sometimes
> known to the company in advance). More recent DoR attacks include the
> inclusion of "cool features" that benefit only a few curious experimenters
> but open the door to serious intrusions."
>
> --
>
> Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
> gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
> http://www.worldnewyork.org/
> 646 296 2260

--
 .............................................
.          D r e w  D a n i e l s o n         .
.          <andrew.danielson at cmu.edu>         .
. Admin for Krogh, Gabriel, Fedder & Rajkumar .
. Carnegie Mellon University ? ECE Department .
. 5000 Forbes Avenue  ?  Pittsburgh, PA 15213 .
. +1 412 268-2188 Voice ? +1 412 268-3890 Fax .
.        http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~dmunk        .
 .............................................
 A fool with a sense of his foolishness is --
 at least to that extent -- wise.
  -- Dhammapada


From brad at BSBEATY.COM  Tue Jun  4 15:40:44 2002
From: brad at BSBEATY.COM (Brad Beaty)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:40:44 -0700
Subject: qohee
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.084044.0700.>

I need some help.  I am an attorney in Virginia who gets email from another Virginia attorney who uses "qohee" as her email name.  My client has asked me what it means.  I have some vague thought that it was some sort of colonial slang for hillbilly.  I haven't found "qohee" anywhere.  Can anyonyone help?  Thanks


BRADLEE S. BEATY, Attorney at Law
530 East Main Street, Suite 600
Richmond, Virginia 23219
TEL (804) 643-6343 FAX (804) 643-6380, brad at bsbeaty.com
This e-mail may contain attorney confidential/privileged information and should be read only by the named recipient(s).  Any use of this e-mail by others is prohibited.  Please notify of erroneous receipt by return e-mail to admin at bsbeaty.com



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Jun  4 16:57:36 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 12:57:36 -0400
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.125736.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Someone asked on a newsgroup about the origin of the phrase "gone all
pear-shaped":
        >>>

I know *what* this phrase means, at least from context--an expression
for a plan gone awry.  (BBC America shows Ground Force, where I heard
Alan Titchmarsh utter it.)
        <<<

Followups have suggested
 1. the devolution of the male physique in middle age,
 2. what happens when a balloon begins to deflate (quoting Partridge),
and
 3. the discovery that the Earth is not only not spherical, it's not
cleanly spheroidal either

Any data or other reasonable ideas? (Note: If replying off-list [though
why would you?], remove the obvious spam-blocker from my edress.)

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Jun  4 17:03:24 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:03:24 -0400
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206041251260.377243-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.130324.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote:

#Any data or other reasonable ideas? (Note: If replying off-list [though
#why would you?], remove the obvious spam-blocker from my edress.)

Hm. No spam-blocker this time. Odd things happen when my newsreader and
my mailreader mix.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun  4 17:05:28 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:05:28 -0400
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206041251260.377243-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.130528.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 12:57:36PM -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote:
> Someone asked on a newsgroup about the origin of the phrase "gone all
> pear-shaped":
>         >>>
>
> I know *what* this phrase means, at least from context--an expression
> for a plan gone awry.  (BBC America shows Ground Force, where I heard
> Alan Titchmarsh utter it.)
>         <<<

The OED files on this suggest that the phrase _go pear-shaped_
'go wrong; go amiss' is originally R.A.F. slang.

> Any data or other reasonable ideas? (Note: If replying off-list [though
> why would you?], remove the obvious spam-blocker from my edress.)

Either my ability to detect spam has gone quite pear-shaped, or you
need to reconfigure your mailer to make sure your desired spam-
blocker is indeed included as part of your address.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Jun  4 17:07:09 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 18:07:09 +0100
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206041251260.377243-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.180709.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is a _very_ common British phrase.

> Followups have suggested
>  1. the devolution of the male physique in middle age,
>  2. what happens when a balloon begins to deflate (quoting Partridge),
> and
>  3. the discovery that the Earth is not only not spherical, it's not
> cleanly spheroidal either

I think the most likely/closest is (2).  Something that's gone all
pear-shaped is something that should have had a nice structure, but entropy
has had its way. (I think I can use the word 'entropy' that way.)

I most frequently hear it in the context of people's Scrabble games (since
I have an unreasonable amount of discussion about Scrabble games).  You
will have started well, but then start picking up lots of I's and U's at
which point you say "I was doing well but now it's gone all pear-shaped on
me".

There's another theory at:
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/pear_shaped.html

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun  4 17:08:20 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:08:20 -0400
Subject: qohee
In-Reply-To: <20020604154044.50450.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.130820.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 08:40:44AM -0700, Brad Beaty wrote:
> I need some help.  I am an attorney in Virginia who gets email from
>another Virginia attorney who uses "qohee" as her email name.  My
>client has asked me what it means.  I have some vague thought that it
>was some sort of colonial slang for hillbilly.  I haven't found
>"qohee" anywhere.  Can anyonyone help?  Thanks

Is there any reason you can't just ask the other attorney? It
seems the best way in this case and nothing about your
description has suggested that doing so would be embarrassing,
personal, or the like.

Jesse Sheidlower


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Tue Jun  4 17:41:18 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 18:41:18 +0100
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206041251260.377243-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.184118.0100.>

> Someone asked on a newsgroup about the origin of the phrase "gone all
> pear-shaped":

I had a go at answering a question about this about a year ago (see
<http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pea2.htm>). There have been
many suggestions for a source in various things that are literally
pear-shaped, though none convincingly explain how the expression
changed from being literal to figurative. It seems to date from the
1960s.

A common explanation, the one accepted by Oxford Dictionaries, is
that it originated in Royal Air Force slang. However, nobody there
or anywhere else seems to know why. Some say that it may have been
applied to the efforts of pilots to do aerobatics, such as loops.
It is notoriously difficult (I am told) to get manoeuvres like this
even roughly circular, and instructors would describe the resulting
distorted route of the aircraft as 'pear-shaped'.

I'm not at all sure I even begin to believe this story!


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Tue Jun  4 17:52:25 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 18:52:25 +0100
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.185225.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would agree with Lynne Murphy:

> Something that's gone all
> pear-shaped is something that should have had a nice structure, but
entropy
> has had its way. (I think I can use the word 'entropy' that way.)

It seems to link, literally and punningly, to the idea that 'the bottom has
dropped out' of the situation.

Jonathon Green


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Tue Jun  4 18:06:05 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:06:05 -0400
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
In-Reply-To: <20020604170528.GB25302@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.140605.0400.>

On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 12:57:36PM -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote:
>Any data or other reasonable ideas? (Note: If replying off-list [though
>why would you?], remove the obvious spam-blocker from my edress.)

In trying to figure out what your spam protections are, I found this line in
your mail header:

>X-Authentication-Warning: shell01.TheWorld.com: mam owned process doing -bs

I think I know what that means, but I'm hoping it's open to
reinterpretation: "Warning: Momma's gonna cut the crap."


--

Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
http://www.worldnewyork.org/
646 296 2260


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Tue Jun  4 18:07:03 2002
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:07:03 -0500
Subject: qohee
In-Reply-To: <20020604170820.GA27307@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.130703.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's in DARE at "cohee," thought by many to come from "quoth he."  We've
defined it as 'An inhabitant of the mountains of western Virginia or
Pennsylvania."

At 01:08 PM 6/4/02 -0400, you wrote:
>On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 08:40:44AM -0700, Brad Beaty wrote:
> > I need some help.  I am an attorney in Virginia who gets email from
> >another Virginia attorney who uses "qohee" as her email name.  My
> >client has asked me what it means.  I have some vague thought that it
> >was some sort of colonial slang for hillbilly.  I haven't found
> >"qohee" anywhere.  Can anyonyone help?  Thanks
>
>Is there any reason you can't just ask the other attorney? It
>seems the best way in this case and nothing about your
>description has suggested that doing so would be embarrassing,
>personal, or the like.
>
>Jesse Sheidlower


From dave at WILTON.NET  Tue Jun  4 18:36:14 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 11:36:14 -0700
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
In-Reply-To: <4287284.3232202829@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.113614.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I think the most likely/closest is (2).  Something that's gone all
> pear-shaped is something that should have had a nice
> structure, but entropy
> has had its way. (I think I can use the word 'entropy' that way.)

Although it does work in a metaphorical sense, I'm not sure entropy is quite
right. It's changing shape, not descending into a lower state of energy.
"Gravity" would seem more appropriate, or perhaps "pastry" if we're talking
about people.


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Jun  4 18:44:02 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:44:02 +0100
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
In-Reply-To: <000b01c20bf6$b5cf3070$0300a8c0@HPN5290>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.194402.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Tuesday, June 4, 2002 11:36 am -0700 Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET>
wrote:

>> I think the most likely/closest is (2).  Something that's gone all
>> pear-shaped is something that should have had a nice
>> structure, but entropy
>> has had its way. (I think I can use the word 'entropy' that way.)
>
> Although it does work in a metaphorical sense, I'm not sure entropy is
> quite right. It's changing shape, not descending into a lower state of
> energy. "Gravity" would seem more appropriate, or perhaps "pastry" if
> we're talking about people.

I was thinking of the 'measure of disorder or randomness in a system'
(AHD4), since gravity has little to do with Scrabble games!

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun  4 18:50:04 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:50:04 -0400
Subject: qohee
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020604130336.024c0160@students.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.145004.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:07 PM -0500 6/4/02, Joan Houston Hall wrote:
>It's in DARE at "cohee," thought by many to come from "quoth he."  We've
>defined it as 'An inhabitant of the mountains of western Virginia or
>Pennsylvania."
>
>At 01:08 PM 6/4/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 08:40:44AM -0700, Brad Beaty wrote:
>>>  I need some help.  I am an attorney in Virginia who gets email from
>>>another Virginia attorney who uses "qohee" as her email name.  My
>>>client has asked me what it means.  I have some vague thought that it
>>>was some sort of colonial slang for hillbilly.  I haven't found
>>>"qohee" anywhere.  Can anyonyone help?  Thanks
>>
>>Is there any reason you can't just ask the other attorney? It
>>seems the best way in this case and nothing about your
>>description has suggested that doing so would be embarrassing,
>>personal, or the like.
>>
>>Jesse Sheidlower

Well, the only relevant "qohee" I could google (there was an
irrelevant one) is the userid of someone posting on a
Charlottesville, VA board discussion of local pizza places, and I
deduce that it's the attorney in question.  If so, either her
tastebuds or the local pizza situation in Charlottesville leave
something to be desired, since she's plumping for Papa John's, which
I assume refers to a branch of that franchiser.

larry,
from good old New Haven, the ex-birthplace of pizza


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Jun  4 22:59:27 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 18:59:27 -0400
Subject: "It's Gone All Pear-Shaped!"
In-Reply-To: <B92279CD.4575%gbarrett@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.185927.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, Grant Barrett wrote:

#In trying to figure out what your spam protections are, I found this line in
#your mail header:
#
#>X-Authentication-Warning: shell01.TheWorld.com: mam owned process doing -bs

BBBBBBTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!

-- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname
     http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  5 00:57:38 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 20:57:38 EDT
Subject: Angora (1834); Albin Krebs & the Big Apple
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.205738.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ANGORA

NARRATIVE OF TRAVELS IN EUROPE, ASIA, AND AFRICA,
IN THE SEVENTEENTH CENTURY
by Evliya Efendi
translated from the Turkish by the Ritter Joseph von Hammer
London:  Printed for the Oriental Trnslation Fund of Great Britain and
Ireland
sold by Parbury, Allen, & Co
1834

   Yes, there's more in this book.
   OED has 1819 for "Angora cat" and 1833 for "Angora goat."  Thus, this
translation--175 years later--is nearly an antedate for "angora."  Some
people think the name of Turkey's capital, Ankara, comes from Angora, but
that's another etymology.

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 232:
   The hair is then worked into Shalloons, and both men and women are busy at
making or selling them.  The Franks tried to transport the goats of Angora
into their own country, but God be praised! they degenerated into common
goats, and the stuff wove from their hair was no Suf (Shalloon).  They then
took the hair of the Angora-goat and tried to work it into Sof, but were
never able to give it the true lustre (Maj).  They now make of it for their
monks a kind of black shalloon, which however has neither colour nor lustre.
The inhabitants of Angora say that the exclusive working of fine shalloon is
granted them by the miracles of Haji Bairam, and the water and air.  Indeed
the sof (Shalloon) of Angora is the most famous in the world; the chalk also
of Angora is renowned.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
ALBIN KREBS & THE BIG APPLE

   In today's (Tuesday's) NEW YORK TIMES, you will find this little item:

_Albin Krebs, 73, Times Obituary Writer, Dies_

   And you'll go right past it.  But for me, it sure brings back old
memories.
   In 1975, "the Big Apple" was fast becoming the hot new name for New York
City.  Someone on the Times was assigned to do the definitive article.  That
someone was Albin Krebs.
   Krebs wrote, in 1975, that "the Big Apple" was popularized by Damon
Runyon.
   Now, Krebs could have stepped into the New York Public Library and filled
out a call slip for RUNYONESE: THE MIND AND CRAFT OF DAMON RUNYON (1965) by
Jean Wagner.  Had he done so, he'd have found a long list of Runyonese, with
"Big Apple" never mentioned.  About two years later, William Safire called
"the Big Apple" a "Runyonesque" phrase.
   In 1995, former NYC Convention & Visitors Bureau President Charles Gillett
died.  The obituary writer was James Barron, who pulled the twenty-year-old
Krebs article out of the Times archives and used it in the Gillett obituary
as fact.
   When I wrote in to the Times--well, you know!
   And so it is that the New York Times can and did ignore the nickname of
its own city, and publish as fact--TWICE!--something based on no evidence
whatsoever.
   Krebs retired in 1989 and Gerald Cohen published his BIG APPLE book in
1991, so it's not entirely Krebs' fault.


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Wed Jun  5 02:10:09 2002
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:10:09 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.221009.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is there a more useful term for racial profiling?
There are certain phrases that shut down rational debate. Say Big
Business to a liberal or Socialist to a conservative and images are
dredged up in their minds that hampers rational discussion. "Racial
profiling" is one of those phrases, to a great extent because of excesses
of our law enforcement community which have nothing to do with our
present situation.
On the other hand, we know very well that there are people out to kill
Americans, and we know that these people are, almost without exception,
people in a small age range, of a certain religion, and from identifiable
countries. Isn't it just common sense to take more care with people
arriving in the United States who fit these parameters than, say, an
elderly woman from Norway?
There is a huge debate now, because of the words used, on what seems to
me to be a pretty straightforward matter . Might the careful
consideration of people in a small cohort better be called something else
that would not automatically call up memories of injustices to an
entirely different group of people.

D


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Wed Jun  5 09:52:05 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 05:52:05 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
In-Reply-To: <20020604.221014.-316031.7.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.055205.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

><))));>Is there a more useful term for racial profiling?
><))));>

Well, every term is useful in it's own way, depending on the intent of the
speaker.  And WEB DeBois warns of the dangers of getting into divisive
fights over changing terms--he sites nigger, black, colored, etc--while
avoiding changing the associated underlying behavior that is the real
problem.  According to WEBD the danger is to the people who are fighting to
change the term, of their being seduced into believing they are actually
changing something important while expending vast amounts of energy and
political capital in the process.

I'm not going to enter the racial profiling debate other than to note that
it's use has spilled over from it's origins describing police street
activity in a, mostly, white/black racial context and is now being used in
several arenas dealing with all people of color, particularly those of
middle eastern heritage, entering the country, especially at airports.  The
constant in this use is the police powers of the government against xxx
group.  In these uses profiling is pretty much synonymous with stereotyping
but with, from the police perspective, an added scientific or
pseudoscientific base.

Personally, I think profiling is a pretty useful all round term that is not
too pejorative.

The FBI profiles serial murderers (think Silence of the Lambs and most of
the Kay Scarpetta stories) & bank robbers.  But universities have a cross
sectional profile of their student body--both actual and ideal as do
admissions committees and businesses have profiles of their client base.
Marketers profile the population and pitch us.  Medicos match patients
against different disease profiles.

rhk


From bob at BOBFELTON.COM  Wed Jun  5 11:11:09 2002
From: bob at BOBFELTON.COM (Bob Felton)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 07:11:09 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.071109.0400.BOB@BOBFELTON.COM>

'Racial Profiling' has always been an inaccurate - and in my estimation, deliberately dishonest - expression.  It is not races that are profiled, but crimes.

Robert M. Felton, P.E.
bob at bobfelton.com
www.bobfelton.com


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.368 / Virus Database: 204 - Release Date: 5/29/2002


From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Wed Jun  5 11:33:26 2002
From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 07:33:26 -0400
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.073326.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

See -
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/020605/5/mum9.html


Actually, I have found no evidence that the Lt. Col. Steve Butler who is
the subject of this article has any background in linguistics, but he's
getting canned from an academic administration position at the Army's
Defense Language Institute in Monterey, CA.

Perhaps this is the installation where the Army researches and develops
it's formidible acronyms?


--
 .............................................
.          D r e w  D a n i e l s o n         .
.          <andrew.danielson at cmu.edu>         .
.        http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~dmunk        .
 .............................................
 A fool with a sense of his foolishness is --
 at least to that extent -- wise.
  -- Dhammapada


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun  5 11:37:27 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 07:37:27 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
In-Reply-To: <005201c20c81$b2b3af70$51295d0c@Office>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.073727.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, Bob Felton wrote:

>'Racial Profiling' has always been an inaccurate - and in my estimation,
deliberately dishonest - expression.  It is not races that are profiled,
but crimes.

I don't know about <deliberate>, but I know that is some cases it is
neither races nor crimes that are profiled. Rather, it is
possible/probable characteristics of criminals. The term "linguistic
profiling" is sometimes accurate for the kind of profiling that can be
useful.

Bethany


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  5 14:06:39 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:06:39 -0400
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.100639.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Wed, 5 Jun 2002  7:32:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Drew Danielson <andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU> writes:

>See -
>http://ca.news.yahoo.com/020605/5/mum9.html
>
>
>Actually, I have found no evidence that the Lt. Col. Steve Butler who is
>the subject of this article has any background in linguistics, but he's
>getting canned from an academic administration position at the Army's
>Defense Language Institute in Monterey, CA.
>
>Perhaps this is the installation where the Army researches and develops
>it's formidible acronyms?

Wash your mouth out with soap.

The Defense Language Institute, at the Presidio of Monterey, is DOD's school for teaching foreign languages, and from all I have heard it is a highly regarded school.  It traces its origins back to the Army Language School, which was founded in "Word War II" [unconscious typo, too good to correct], long after acronyms had become a long established military/naval tradition.

There is a long tradition in the US armed forces, well known to EVERY serving officer, that soldiers/sailors/airmen do NOT publicly engage in partisan politics.

The Web Page you cited contains the following extremely ill-informed quote:
     "Butler's suspension was apparently based on Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which says that any commissioned officer who uses "contemptuous words" against the president or other senior officials may be punished by a court-martial.
     "The Monterey Herald said that the last Article 88 court-martial came in 1965 when an Army second lieutenant was prosecuted for taking part in an anti-war protest in Texas..."

If the Monterey Herald had bothered to do any research, they would have found that no less a legendary figure than Douglas McArthur had gotten canned by his Commander-in-Chief for shooting his mouth off in public.  Another general, I believe his name was Walker, got canned circa 1962 for partisan politicking (if memory serves, it was for taking John Birch Society positions, so it's not only liberals who get punished.)

Going back to the Civil War, several generals were kicked out of their commands for playing politics: George B. McClellan, Fitz-John Porter (who was court-martialled on a trumped-up charge), John McClernand (publicly criticizing General Grant).  Grant himself almost got fired for a certain anti-Semitic statement, and old War-Is-Hell Sherman got into some Hell of his own for merely making a politically bad guess when the Confederate general facing him offered to surrender.

For a more recent example, President Clinton, during the Lewinsky scandal, ordered a missile attack on al-Qaeda.  There was much controversy over his action, with many civilians saying "he needed this war on terrorism" and "he needed something to hang his presidency on."  (Both these quotes, admittedly out of context, are from LTC Butler's letter.)  Yet did you hear any criticism from active-duty military?  No, even though many in DOD thought it was an ill-conceived project.  They were good soldiers; they kept their mouths shut and let the civilians do the debating.

Or look at it this way: suppose you were the president of a college and some vice-chancellor working for you had such a letter to the editor published.  Wouldn't you wonder if your institution would be better off without him?

LTC Butler knew the rules, and knowingly violated them.  I have no tears for him.

IF Butler had any evidence NOT already in the newspapers that "Bush knew about the impending attacks on America. He did nothing to warn the American people..." then there are channels he could go through, the most obvious of which is to inform his Congresspersons.  As a matter of fact, IF Butler had evidence NOT yet known to the general public, the last thing he should do is to write a letter to the editor.  It can be argued that his patriotic duty would be to tell his Congressperson, not the newspapers.

    - Jim Landau (who thinks that civilian control of the military is a GOOD THING)

P.S.  linguistic note: in the Armed Forces, the word "Monterey" is shorthand for "Defense Language Institute", which, by the way, has the acronym "DEFLANGINST".


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  5 15:38:44 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:38:44 -0400
Subject: Computer proverbs for Fred Shapiro
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.113844.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Big-Endian versus Little Endian"

This phrase (if not the exact words) goes back to the Lilliput section of Gulliver's Travels, where Swift satirizes the religious struggles of England in the 1600's by implying they were over the question of which end of an egg to crack ("How many Angles can dance on the end of an egg?").  Dr. Seuss used the same idea in a satire on "buttered side up" versus "buttered side down" (I don't remember the book title, but the same satire appears in Seussical).  I don't know whether Seuss got the idea on his own or was imitating Swift.

The computer community picked up "Big-endian" and "Little-Endian" as the nomenclature for a very real computer problem.  A computer can work with numbers stored small-end-first or stored large-end-first, and it is up to the "architect" (designer) of a computer which technique to use.  This means that when "porting" software from one computer to another, if the two computers differ on which end is in front, you may have a big headache.

Another term for this problem is "NUXI", because if "UNIX" is stored as two two-byte numbers and you transfer it from a Big-Endian computer to a Little-Endian or vice versa, the U and N get scrambled, and the I and X get scrambled separately.

---------------------------------------------------------

"The key, the whole key, and nothing but the key, so help me Codd"

This odd phrase is neither a satire nor a spoof; it is of all things a mnemonic.  Back in the 1970's Edgar F. Codd of IBM worked out the theory of relational databases.  Part of his theory was a set of three rules for the structure of the "key field", that is, the data item that uniquely identifies each data record.  The above quote provides a surprisingly near-exact description of Codd's three rules.

If you want to know what the three rules are, rather than ask me to explain you should check any good textbook on database management systems.

Nowadays database systems like Microsoft Access and its competitors use Codd's rules but bury them so deeply under a GUI interface that only serious computer scientists delve into the gooey details.  It was not always so.  As late as 1984 (when I was in systems procurement) there was considerable debate on whether Codd's ideas were worth implementing.

I learned the mnemonic from my boss in 1988, when I was taking a graduate class in database theory.

     - James A. Landau
       systems engineer


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Jun  5 16:06:03 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:06:03 -0700
Subject: Pita,
 Zilabka (1925); Mezzlik (1904); Halva from Philadelphia, Turkey
In-Reply-To: <077642D1.31D5A2E7.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.090603.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mezzlik, probably an error for mezelik which is meze + lIk (capital i
stands for either i, undotted i, u or "u depending on vowel harmony). The
suffix -lIk generally makes nouns abstract. So mezelik = "appetizers" or
things appropriate to be eaten as appetizers, or ingredients you might use
in making appetizers. Cf. Turkish "salata" (salad) "salatal[undotted i]k"
"salad stuff", "salad fixins" etc.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Sat, 1 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> MEZZLIK
>
> TURKISH LIFE IN TOWN AND COUNTRY
> by Lucy M. J. Garnett
> G. P. Putnam's Sons, New York and London
> The Knickerbocker Press
> 1904 (1911 edition)
>
> Pg. 331 (Glossary):
> _Mezzlik_--a _hors d'oeuvre_.
> (Mezzlik=Meze?  If so, this antedates that by about 10 years and is useful
for the etymology of "meze"--ed.)
>


From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Wed Jun  5 16:23:04 2002
From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:23:04 -0400
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.122304.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"James A. Landau" wrote:
>
> >Perhaps this is the installation where the Army researches and develops
> >it's formidible acronyms?
>
> Wash your mouth out with soap.

Sorry, just having some fun at the expense of the "Defense Language
Institute Foreign Language Center (DLIFLC) and Presidio of  Monterey
(POM), [which] is the primary foreign language training institution
within the Department of Defense (DoD)".  Of course, I knew that these
are all initialisms and not acronyms.

> LTC Butler knew the rules, and knowingly violated them.  I have no tears for him.

Which could lead to some frame- or event-level questions - What
compelled him to take this out of the frame of interpersonal speech and
into the frame of a 'letter to the editor'?  How did the facts that this
language act was likely to result in sanctions, and that the topic did
not directly intersect his professional position, play into his
decision-making?  Did his proximity to retirement make him feel it was
appropriate or safe for him to participate in the body politic in this
manner?  Was it merely bad judgement on the part of a frustrated
Democrat in the military, or was it a calculated event (and if the
latter, to what end)?  However this worked, no tears here either.


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Jun  5 16:28:36 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:28:36 -0700
Subject: Evliya Efendi's 17th Century Travels (continued)
In-Reply-To: <168.e7fc62c.2a2bdbb4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.092836.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not exactly dialect, not exactly American but:

FWIW, there are a number of trades mentioned in this post (which I didn't
include because of its length). They have the form "XXXXjian" like
sherbetjian (sherbet sellers), salotjian (salad sellers) dolmajian (dolma
makers, farcers). The words all break down as [noun]+ ji (mod. ci; suffix
means agent, maker or seller connected with that noun) + an (actually
[macron]an; Persian plural suffix). Evliya seems to be rather fond of
using the Persian pl. suffix instead of the Turkish plural -ler/lar in
some contexts.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Jun  5 16:33:53 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:33:53 -0400
Subject: Computer proverbs for Fred Shapiro
In-Reply-To: <5A9E5188.59D050D2.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.123353.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James A. Landau wrote:
[...]
>  Nowadays database systems like Microsoft Access and its competitors
> use Codd's rules but bury them so deeply under a GUI interface that
> only serious computer scientists delve into the gooey details.  It
> was not always so.  As late as 1984 (when I was in systems
> procurement) there was considerable debate on whether Codd's ideas
> were worth implementing.

Maybe I've just been spending a little too much time on MySQL
programming lately, but normalization issues are still a huge
part of database design. I don't think it's at all accurate to
say that "only serious computer scientists" are concerned with
it. Fine, regular desktop Access or FileMaker Pro users probably
aren't concerning themselves with normalization, but it's by no
means a marginal concern.

Jesse Sheidlower


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  5 16:57:53 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:57:53 -0400
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.125753.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:23:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Drew Danielson <andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU> writes:

     <deletions in the following>
>"Defense Language Institute Foreign Language Center (DLIFLC)
> Presidio of  Monterey (POM)
> Department of Defense (DoD)".
>
>Of course, I knew that these
>are all initialisms and not acronyms.

Considering some of the languages taught at Monterey, are you sure "DLIFLC" is not a pronounceable acronym?
    /dih-lih-FILK/
That sounds like something Mark Mandel would be singing.

"POM" is not an acronym that I know of, although there is "MOP" ("Ministry of Propaganda").  In World War II it had two other meanings:
   "POMM" (not sure of the spelling) - a brand of powdered potatoes
   "pom-pom" (onomatopeic, I am told, not the thing cheerleaders use) - either a 20-mm or a 40-mm antiaircraft battery on board a ship.  These two war-winning weapons were developed in neutral countries, the 20-mm by Oerlikon of Switzerland and the 40-mm by Bofors of Sweden.

As for "DOD" or "DoD" - I have heard it as /dahd/ on occasion.

>From a long-forgotten mailing list, re Cabinet departments:
    "DOD", "DOT", and "DOJ" use the initial of the word "of".  Why?  "DD" is a destroyer (naval vessel) or Doctor of Divinity.  "DJ" is a disk jockey so it is best avoided.  "JD" (it is more commonly called "Justice Department" than "Department of Justice") is more appropriate, being both "juvenile delinquent" and "Juris Doctor".  DOT does not seem to mind being a girl's nickname, although people don't seem to call it /daht/ very often.  However, Pennsylvania DOT is universally /pen-daht/.  At least it is not "DT".

Agriculture is USDA, perhaps to distinguish it from "DA"  (Department of the Army), but Agriculture was there first.  At least it is not DOA.

Energy is DOE, Education is ED, perhaps because "EdD" is generally /ed dahc/.

State is rarely abbreviated, but when it is, it is USDS.  By the way, State is not in Foggy Bottom but rather on the bluff overlooking Foggy Bottom, which is the sometimes-fogged-in flood plain along the Potomac from the Lincoln Memorial to the mouth of Rock Creek.  What's in the for-real Foggy Bottom?  Why, the Watergate, of course.  Also, the kid's playground a block from State is Soggy Bottoms.

     - Jim Landau

If furniture could speak, Barry Popik's dining room would have the most polyglot table in New York.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  5 17:04:24 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:04:24 -0400
Subject: Computer proverbs for Fred Shapiro
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.130424.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:36:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM> writes:

>Maybe I've just been spending a little too much time on MySQL
>programming lately, but normalization issues are still a huge
>part of database design. I don't think it's at all accurate to
>say that "only serious computer scientists" are concerned with
>it. Fine, regular desktop Access or FileMaker Pro users probably
>aren't concerning themselves with normalization, but it's by no
>means a marginal concern.
>
>Jesse Sheidlower

If you write in SQL, then by today's standards you are a "serious computer scientist."  You are correct that normalization is hardly a "marginal concern", but the hordes of users of ACCESS and its competitors successfully go through life without knowing normalization exists.

Of course I go back to the good ol' days when real men designed network databases---my first exposure to DBMS came on Memorial Day 1971.

     Jim Landau
     systems engineer who never managed to get the title "computer scientist"


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Jun  5 17:27:16 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:27:16 -0700
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
In-Reply-To: <12F59B8C.66A0DFBD.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.102716.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Considering some of the languages taught at Monterey, are you
> sure "DLIFLC" is not a pronounceable acronym?
>     /dih-lih-FILK/
> That sounds like something Mark Mandel would be singing.

>From my military and gummint contracting days, I never recalled anyone
referring to DLIFLC. It was always just DLI, pronounced dee-ell-eye.

> As for "DOD" or "DoD" - I have heard it as /dahd/ on occasion.

The only time I've ever heard it as /dahd/ is in use in reference to the DoD
school system (public schools for dependent children, not military training
like DLI). The schools were /dahds/ (spelled DODS); the department was
always dee-oh-dee.

> Agriculture is USDA, perhaps to distinguish it from "DA"
> (Department of the Army), but Agriculture was there first.
> At least it is not DOA.

It's not "DA" probably because of agricultural exports. Products marked with
"USDA" don't cause confusion with foreign bureaucracies.

> Energy is DOE, Education is ED, perhaps because "EdD" is
> generally /ed dahc/.

And the acronym "DED" conjures up unfortunate imagery, and "DoED" sounds
like something a skateboarder would say.

> State is rarely abbreviated, but when it is, it is USDS.  By

I don't recall ever seeing it abbreviated as USDS. DOS is the official
acronym that goes in the address line of reporting cables and messages and
in office symbols, but it is rarely used elsewhere. It is more commonly
referred to simply as "State." In the Pentagon we had other names for the
guys "across the river," but that's a story for another thread.


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Wed Jun  5 18:53:28 2002
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:53:28 -0500
Subject: North (and South) Cackylacky?
In-Reply-To: <12F59B8C.66A0DFBD.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.135328.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A friend has asked me about the origins of North (and South)
Cackylacky as names for North (and South) Carolina.

I've had no luck with DARE or the ADS-L Archives. Google shows some
cites, mostly people writing in exaggerated hickspeak.

Even though I claim to be a North Carolinian, I'd never heard this;
my friend didn't give me a gloss in his first email and I took it for
a synonym of "East Bumfuck" (which he thought hilarious). It works
much better etymologically as a synonym for "East Bumfuck" -- 'cacky'
being 'covered in excrement' and -lacky being just reduplication.

Anyone have anything better?

Thanks!

Erin
editor at verbatimmag.com


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Wed Jun  5 20:30:59 2002
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:30:59 -0400
Subject: Pet sitting - earliest cite?
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.163059.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Pet sitting -- defined in the Random House Webster's College Dictionary as
"the act of caring for a pet in its own home while the owner is away" --
dates to 1978 in Lexis-Nexis, but I have a feeling it's much older. Does
anyone have a sense of when this term first appeared (or, better yet, a
citation)?

Thanks.

Paul


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Jun  5 20:43:20 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:43:20 -0400
Subject: North (and South) Cackylacky?
In-Reply-To: <a05100352b9240ce0ed50@[172.30.5.73]>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.164320.0400.>

What I've heard is "Calinky."

1 hit for "South Calinky"
http://homepage.mac.com/willcollier/com080897.html

0 for "North Calinky"

1 for "Sow Calinky"
http://dinette.org/delicious/

--

Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
http://www.worldnewyork.org/
646 296 2260


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Wed Jun  5 20:53:03 2002
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:53:03 -0400
Subject: Pet sitting - earliest cite?
In-Reply-To: <047101c20ccf$e99c66a0$8321d0d8@logophilia.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.165303.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 04:30 PM 6/5/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Pet sitting -- defined in the Random House Webster's College Dictionary as
>"the act of caring for a pet in its own home while the owner is away" --
>dates to 1978 in Lexis-Nexis, but I have a feeling it's much older. Does
>anyone have a sense of when this term first appeared (or, better yet, a
>citation)?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Paul


Earliest in The Times "Pet-Sitters Are Guided By Habits of Creatures"
New York Times (1857-Current File); New York, N.Y.; Aug 7, 1961; By
CHARLOTTE CURTIS
...
"She said she would not want an alligator running around her own apartment,
but this would never happen because instead of boarding animals her
pet-sitting service goes into the animal's own homes to do its work." ...

Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Jun  5 22:25:08 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:25:08 -0400
Subject: North (and South) Cackylacky?
In-Reply-To: <a05100352b9240ce0ed50@[172.30.5.73]>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.182508.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>A friend has asked me about the origins of North (and South)
>Cackylacky as names for North (and South) Carolina.

Sure looks like German "Kakerlake" = "cockroach" (= Dutch "kakkerlak"). I
don't know the etymology in German, but it may not be mere reduplication
(cf. Spanish "cucaracha" which may be the ancestor).

The word for the Carolinas is perhaps just humorously modeled on the German
word; or perhaps it's just coincidence.

-- Doug Wilson


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Wed Jun  5 23:50:01 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 19:50:01 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
In-Reply-To: <005201c20c81$b2b3af70$51295d0c@Office>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.195001.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

><))));>'Racial Profiling' has always been an inaccurate - and in
><))));>my estimation, deliberately dishonest - expression.  It is
><))));>not races that are profiled, but crimes.

Apparently you've never been a professional black man commuting 50 miles a
day in a luxury car on the NJ Turnpike or you'd have a different opinion.
You'd get used to spending a lot of time explaining yourself while you
garner tickets, not for speeding or reckless driving, but  for "changing
lanes within 100 ft of an intersection" (even the little side streets
without traffic lights that intersect larger highways), "failure to signal
for 100 ft before changing lanes", or "driving with obscured rearview mirror
(sunglasses looped up there at night).  Know may white folk who get those
kinds of tickets?  Or if you'd had your wife's body cavities searched three
times in four years by customs officials at international airports because a
black family with a timeshare boat in the islands is suspicious.  Sure don't
read about that happening to white folk in Cruising World.

If you want to increase reported crime, as many localities have found out,
flood a particular area with police.  The more police, the more crimes will
be reported because there are more bored eyes watching.  If you want to
prove that a particular group commits a disproportionate number of crimes,
flood their part of town with cops and stop plenty of that group and you'll
soon have all the statistics you desire--same thing happened to Jews in the
ghettos.

Actually, a new program at Customs is leading the way in proper law
enforcement profiling, and yielding better results.  Analyzing the ticket
purchase, entry and exit patterns, duration of stay, and past criminal
history is a far better indicator of possible illegal activity than skin
tone.  Since Customs switched to the new whole person concept of profiling,
their drug yield per man hour has gone up.

rhk


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  6 00:45:51 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:45:51 EDT
Subject: Lumps of Delight (1842); Irish Stew (1812?)
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.204551.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

LUMPS OF DELIGHT

A NARRATIVE OF TRAVELS TO VIENNA, COMNSTANTINOPLE, ATHENS, NAPLES &c.
by the Marchioness of Londonberry
London: Henry Colburn
1842

Pg. 103:  ...the ladies, who, certainly in their _feridjee_, or folding
mantle, and their _yasmac_, or veil, which covers all but the yes, look more
or less alike.
(OED has 1844 for "yashmack"--ed.)

Pg. 119:  Hash-pilaff, rice, chickens, keebabs (morsels of roasted meat)--in
short, not less than twenty dishes followed...

Pg. 150:  Presents are sent of baskets of confectionary, called "lumps of
delight," which I never had the courage to taste; neither could I, during my
stay in Constantinople, summon resolution to try a Turkish bath, which, from
the description I had of it, seems by no means inviting.
(OED has 1870 for "lumps of delight," now called "Turkish delight."  I had
posted an 1860 cite--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
A JO)URNEY THROUGH PERSIA, ARMENIA, AND ASIA MINOR, TO CONSTANTINOPLE, IN THE
YEARS 1808 and 1809
by James Justinian Morier
Philadelphia: Published by M. Carey, and Wells and Lilly, Boston
1816

Pg. 25:  A Persian visit, when the guest is a distinguished personage,
generally consists of three acts:...and sweet coffee (so called from its
being a composition of rose-water and sugar)...

Pg. 84:  The pillau succeeded, three of which were placed before each two
guests; one of plain rice called chillo, one made of mutton with raisins and
almonds, the other of fowl, with rich spices and plumbs.

Pg. 316:  The principal dishes were the yakne, which resembles our Irish
stew; the dolmah, meat-balls enclosed in vine-leaves; the kabob, which is
roast meat; the chorbah, or soup; the baklavah, a cake of honey, paste, and
other sweet ingredients; the lokmah, a light paste puff; and the pillau...
(OED has 1814 for "Irish stew."  However, this covers 1808-1809, and the
Library of Congress has an 1812 edition of this book.  I'm sure "Irish stew"
is also there--ed.)


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Thu Jun  6 01:59:39 2002
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 21:59:39 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.215939.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I can hear the anger in your message, and you have every right to that
anger. Racial profiling has too often been used by lower middle class
whites in law enforcement to revenge themselves against highly successful
Blacks. And I fully agree with you that that is an abomination.

But you miss my point. My original post (which admittedly is not the one
to which you are responding) was that the term "racial profiling" was so
emotionally charged, especially among people who have been at the
receiving end of its abuse, that we should find another phrase for
targeting people who fit the parameters of those who may do us, including
you, excruciating harm.

You are right that there might other factors involved in profiling, and
there probably are. You suggest a one way ticket, but that is easily
countered by organizations that are well funded. Duration of stay is
certainly important, but only for those who come and go legally and have
it stamped in their passport. Would you allow "profiling" those
mid-Easterners who have exceeded their visa? Of the five thousand Moslems
in this country on temporary visas who(m) the Justice Department wanted
to talk to, nearly three thousand cannot be found. Can they legitimately
be targeted?

The fact remains that the vast majority of those who wish to take action
to destroy our country are Moslems in the age group of 20 to 35 from
specific countries. Shouldn't that be an element in the profile? Absent
other factors in the profile, should a 50 year old woman from Denmark be
treated in the same way as a 28 year old man from Saudi Arabia?

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but it makes common sense to me. And my
point was that we should find another term that doesn't have the history,
that does not enrage people who were unjustifiably stopped on the New
Jersey turnpike.

The problem is not with the policy, which I think makes sense, but with
the phrase. It draws into the debate factors that have nothing to do with
the present situation.

D


On Wed, 5 Jun 2002 19:50:01 -0400 Rick Kennerly <rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM>
writes:
> ><))));>'Racial Profiling' has always been an inaccurate - and in
> ><))));>my estimation, deliberately dishonest - expression.  It is
> ><))));>not races that are profiled, but crimes.
>
> Apparently you've never been a professional black man commuting 50
> miles a
> day in a luxury car on the NJ Turnpike or you'd have a different
> opinion.
> You'd get used to spending a lot of time explaining yourself while
> you
> garner tickets, not for speeding or reckless driving, but  for
> "changing
> lanes within 100 ft of an intersection" (even the little side
> streets
> without traffic lights that intersect larger highways), "failure to
> signal
> for 100 ft before changing lanes", or "driving with obscured
> rearview mirror
> (sunglasses looped up there at night).  Know may white folk who get
> those
> kinds of tickets?  Or if you'd had your wife's body cavities
> searched three
> times in four years by customs officials at international airports
> because a
> black family with a timeshare boat in the islands is suspicious.
> Sure don't
> read about that happening to white folk in Cruising World.
>
> If you want to increase reported crime, as many localities have
> found out,
> flood a particular area with police.  The more police, the more
> crimes will
> be reported because there are more bored eyes watching.  If you want
> to
> prove that a particular group commits a disproportionate number of
> crimes,
> flood their part of town with cops and stop plenty of that group and
> you'll
> soon have all the statistics you desire--same thing happened to Jews
> in the
> ghettos.
>
> Actually, a new program at Customs is leading the way in proper law
> enforcement profiling, and yielding better results.  Analyzing the
> ticket
> purchase, entry and exit patterns, duration of stay, and past
> criminal
> history is a far better indicator of possible illegal activity than
> skin
> tone.  Since Customs switched to the new whole person concept of
> profiling,
> their drug yield per man hour has gone up.
>
> rhk
>


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Thu Jun  6 02:14:27 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:14:27 -0400
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
In-Reply-To: <12F59B8C.66A0DFBD.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.221427.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

#Considering some of the languages taught at Monterey, are you sure
#"DLIFLC" is not a pronounceable acronym?
#    /dih-lih-FILK/
#That sounds like something Mark Mandel would be singing.

I sure would, but why three syllables? [dlI'fLk], with syllabic [l] in
the second syllable.

#If furniture could speak, Barry Popik's dining room would have the
#most polyglot table in New York.

Right!!

-- Mark M.


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Thu Jun  6 02:25:26 2002
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:25:26 -0400
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.222526.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My daughter spent over a year at DLI in Monterrey and we spend a month
out there with her, and I never heard it called anything but DLI.

My wife and I spent several years in Europe. I was first military and
then a DOD (Dee-oh-dee) civilian. She taught at the military school,
which was a Dee-oh-dee school. I never heard "dohd" school. This was in
the late 60s and early 70s.

D


From wh5mith at POP.MINDSPRING.COM  Thu Jun  6 04:18:12 2002
From: wh5mith at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bill Smith)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 00:18:12 -0400
Subject: Evolving subjunctive
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.001812.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Skip Carey (son of Harry) is one of the radio/tv  announcers for the
Atlanta Braves.  When there are two outs and he announces the batter on
deck, he says, "Chipper [e.g.] would be next."  Is this a new use for the
subjunctive?  For Cubs fans, did he get it from his father?
On the other hand, he will also say, for example, "If he doesn't stop, he's
out," when one would expect "If he hadn't stopped, he would have been
out."  Are these unique to him?


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Thu Jun  6 04:27:06 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 00:27:06 -0400
Subject: Evolving subjunctive
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20020606001204.00a08c60@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.002706.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bill Smith said:
>Skip Carey (son of Harry) is one of the radio/tv  announcers for the
>Atlanta Braves.  When there are two outs and he announces the batter on
>deck, he says, "Chipper [e.g.] would be next."  Is this a new use for the
>subjunctive?  For Cubs fans, did he get it from his father?
>On the other hand, he will also say, for example, "If he doesn't stop, he's
>out," when one would expect "If he hadn't stopped, he would have been
>out."  Are these unique to him?

The first, the implied conditional ("Chipper would be next [if Andruw gets
on]") may well be unique to Caray. However, the contingent sentences ("if
he doesn't stop, he's out") seems fairly common in sportscasterese.

--
Alice Faber                                  tel. (203) 865-6163 x258
Haskins Laboratories                              fax  (203) 865-8963
270 Crown St                                   faber at haskins.yale.edu
New Haven, CT 06511


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  6 07:28:38 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 03:28:38 -0400
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.032838.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When yall change the topic could you PLEASE change the subject line' so I can delete stuff I am not interested in without paying to open it?

Thanks.

In a message dated Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:58:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM> writes:

>In a message dated Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:23:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Drew Danielson <andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU> writes:
>
>     <deletions in the following>
>>"Defense Language Institute Foreign Language Center (DLIFLC)
>> Presidio of  Monterey (POM)
>> Department of Defense (DoD)".
>>
>>Of course, I knew that these
>>are all initialisms and not acronyms.
>
>Considering some of the languages taught at Monterey, are you sure "DLIFLC" is not a pronounceable acronym?
>    /dih-lih-FILK/
>That sounds like something Mark Mandel would be singing.
>
>"POM" is not an acronym that I know of, although there is "MOP" ("Ministry of Propaganda").  In World War II it had two other meanings:
>   "POMM" (not sure of the spelling) - a brand of powdered potatoes
>   "pom-pom" (onomatopeic, I am told, not the thing cheerleaders use) - either a 20-mm or a 40-mm antiaircraft battery on board a ship.  These two war-winning weapons were developed in neutral countries, the 20-mm by Oerlikon of Switzerland and the 40-mm by Bofors of Sweden.
>
>As for "DOD" or "DoD" - I have heard it as /dahd/ on occasion.
>
>>From a long-forgotten mailing list, re Cabinet departments:
>    "DOD", "DOT", and "DOJ" use the initial of the word "of".  Why?  "DD" is a destroyer (naval vessel) or Doctor of Divinity.  "DJ" is a disk jockey so it is best avoided.  "JD" (it is more commonly called "Justice Department" than "Department of Justice") is more appropriate, being both "juvenile delinquent" and "Juris Doctor".  DOT does not seem to mind being a girl's nickname, although people don't seem to call it /daht/ very often.  However, Pennsylvania DOT is universally /pen-daht/.  At least it is not "DT".
>
>Agriculture is USDA, perhaps to distinguish it from "DA"  (Department of the Army), but Agriculture was there first.  At least it is not DOA.
>
>Energy is DOE, Education is ED, perhaps because "EdD" is generally /ed dahc/.
>
>State is rarely abbreviated, but when it is, it is USDS.  By the way, State is not in Foggy Bottom but rather on the bluff overlooking Foggy Bottom, which is the sometimes-fogged-in flood plain along the Potomac from the Lincoln Memorial to the mouth of Rock Creek.  What's in the for-real Foggy Bottom?  Why, the Watergate, of course.  Also, the kid's playground a block from State is Soggy Bottoms.
>
>     - Jim Landau
>
>If furniture could speak, Barry Popik's dining room would have the most polyglot table in New York.
>


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Thu Jun  6 10:26:49 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 06:26:49 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
In-Reply-To: <20020605.220537.-461759.6.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.062649.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

><))));>anger. Racial profiling has too often been used by lower
><))));>middle class
><))));>whites in law enforcement to revenge themselves against
><))));>highly successful

Nice fantasy, but a majority of the NJ State Police are college educated and
all make a professional salary.  The profiling schemes they've admitted in
court was pushed down on them in an institutional way by their supervisors,
relying on pop psychology, pseudoscience and selectively sampled
statistically data to predetermine the outcome--Nazis did the same thing.
Driving while black is still an offense in a lot of places, we shouldn't
honor NJ alone.

><))));>there probably are. You suggest a one way ticket, but that is easily

Trip profiling was just one example of a more successful method of drug
interdiction that works better than racial profiling for US Customs, and it
does take into account the country that issued your passport.  But this
problem, like drug interdiction,  is also an ever shifting puzzle--like a
ball a clay, if you squeeze here, it pops out somewhere else--just like the
current problem.

><))));>should a 50 year old woman
><))));>from Denmark be
><))));>treated in the same way as a 28 year old man from Saudi Arabia?
><))));>

Ah, by your own example we're back to physical attributes to determine who
is singled out for intense scrutiny--if white, all right.  If brown, strip
them down.   And we're going to let who, exactly, make these decisions?
Those highly professional--cum federal employees--with a wand and a  badge
at the gates nowadays? And thanks for the information that there are no
aging white terrorists--not even a few old left over bader meinhoff folks in
Germany? no old desperate Europeans muling drugs or worse for rent money? no
grandmotherly dupes inadvertently carrying somebody else's package for a
grandchild back home? or traveling with bags that their angry radicalized
Indonesian house slave packed for them?  Amazing insight.  Of course, until
911 the worst mass murderer in US history was a super patriotic white guy,
an Army veteran living in the Midwest, who no one would suspect, but it's
too much trouble to intensely scrutinize white folks, too many of 'em.

But that's okay, after all after 911 the black community, the oriental
community and the latino community were right in there with everybody else,
pitching like a lodge brother, to have people of Arab descent thrown off of
planes and ghettoized in neighborhoods.  The fact that they've been there
makes it particularly wrong.   But, listen it's a natural response.  We're
all right, they're not.  But the beauty America is that through our ideals
we can rise above that, despite our historical lapses.

In any event, being of demonstrated cleverness, well-financed, and patient,
I'm sure, regardless of what we do, a determined group of terrorists--maybe
Filipino or Malaysian or Indonesian this time--will strike again.  But it
might just be another Timothy  McVeigh, too.  The question is where do we
draw that line which, if crossed, we stop being America?  If we abandon our
ideals yet survive physically, is this country still American?  Did we not
learn anything from the interment of Americans of Japanese descent?  The
ghettoization of the Jews?  The hell German-Americans lived at the hands of
their neighbors during the war?

><))));>Maybe I'm just old fashioned

Yep, and it's that old fashioned thinking that will open the door to allow
the next group of terrorist to strike.

rhk


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  6 11:56:11 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:56:11 EDT
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.075611.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/05/2002 10:27:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mam at THEWORLD.COM writes:

> I sure would, but why three syllables? [dlI'fLk], with syllabic [l] in
>  the second syllable.

/dli filk/ would work in a language like French or (I think) Japanese that
does not accent syllables. In a language like English or Russian, with a
strong accent and a habit of ghettoizing the vowels in the unaccented
syllables, the first syllable of /dli 'filk/ would get slurred to the point
of being unrecognizable. Even in a language with a moderate accent (like
Spanish) in which vowels of unaccented syllables are pronounced distinctly,
unaccented /dli/ is borderline.  Since I specified an accented final syllable
(I tried accents on all 3 syllables and that was the clear esthetic winner),
I broke "DLI" into two syllables to keep it from getting slurred and making
sure all the consonants were recognizable.

I tried a schwa in the first syllable but that made it sound like the surname
"de le Filk" which is a grammatical error in both French and Spanish, so I
used /i/ in both the first two syllables.

So there!

    - Jim Landau


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Thu Jun  6 12:44:38 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 08:44:38 -0400
Subject: Evolving subjunctive
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20020606001204.00a08c60@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.084438.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sportcasterese has come up with several innovations this list should
notice.  They avoid the past perfect as noted in this message; they are
using something like the historical present but only when it is past!  In
other words, right after it happened, they would say:  "He stopped at
second" -- not using the historical present.  But later during analysis
they would say "If he doesn't stop, he's out," as if they were using the
historical present.  I have heard this sort of thing only from
sportcasters.  They also say "may" for "might" but that is common use by
many (mostly young?) people.

Sportcasters also use an analytic possessive a lot.  "It bounced of the
glove of Lofton" rather than "It bounced off Lofton's glove".  It appears
to my introspection that generating the second sentence requires an extra
transformation, whereas the first sentence is closer to the abstract
structure behind the sentence.  This is something that could probably be
tested, but I can't think how.

--Charles Wells





>Skip Carey (son of Harry) is one of the radio/tv  announcers for the
>Atlanta Braves.  When there are two outs and he announces the batter on
>deck, he says, "Chipper [e.g.] would be next."  Is this a new use for the
>subjunctive?  For Cubs fans, did he get it from his father?
>On the other hand, he will also say, for example, "If he doesn't stop, he's
>out," when one would expect "If he hadn't stopped, he would have been
>out."  Are these unique to him?



Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Thu Jun  6 13:37:02 2002
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:37:02 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
In-Reply-To: <NJEFLDNDEIDMAKCHIMJGGEBNCFAA.rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.093702.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Once upon a time, a friend of mine had her necklace ripped off her
neck in Manhattan by a woman who approached her asking for
help.  Several days later, while we were visiting Washington, D.C.,
this friend was in the process of buying a fare card at an automatic
dispensing machine in the subway station when a total stranger
approached her offering assistance with her purchase.  My friend,
whose wallet was open, shrank away from this person, who
proceeded to berate her as a "stupid white woman," angrily
informed her that he'd served in Viet Nam, and made a derogatory
remark concerning the town that was the ultimate destination of the
train we were taking, which he incorrectly inferred that she lived.

So tell me, who was doing the racial profiling in that case?  Who
was the oppressed and who the oppressor? Who gets to be the
most sanctimonious?

Joanne Despres


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Thu Jun  6 15:02:41 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:02:41 -0400
Subject: linguist like to argue with (or criticize) non-linguists, too
In-Reply-To: <124.11c82cc4.2a30a7db@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.110241.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

#mam at THEWORLD.COM writes:
#
#> I sure would, but why three syllables? [dlI'fLk], with syllabic [l] in
#>  the second syllable.

        [snip detailed explanation]

#So there!

So much for hoi polloi. But *I* would happily say [dlI'fLk] or
[dlI'fIlk].

-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and
   Philological Busybody
   a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun  6 15:50:52 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:50:52 -0400
Subject: Evolving subjunctive
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20020606001204.00a08c60@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.115052.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:18 AM -0400 6/6/02, Bill Smith wrote:
>Skip Carey (son of Harry) is one of the radio/tv  announcers for the
>Atlanta Braves.  When there are two outs and he announces the batter on
>deck, he says, "Chipper [e.g.] would be next."  Is this a new use for the
>subjunctive?

I don't think so; it's clearly elliptical in the context for "if X
gets on, Chipper would be next" or "if the inning continues, Chipper
would be next".  I'd call it a conditional, not a subjunctive.

>On the other hand, he will also say, for example, "If he doesn't stop, he's
>out," when one would expect "If he hadn't stopped, he would have been
>out."  Are these unique to him?

The latter we've discussed on the list, and it's fairly
well-established sportscasterese.  (In fact you asked about this on
the list 7 years ago, and I responded as below.)

=========
Date:          Thu, 12 Oct 1995 23:34:01 EDT
Sender:       American Dialect Society <<ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From:         Larry Horn <<LHORN at YaleVM.CIS.Yale.Edu>
Subject:      Re: If I was
To:           Multiple recipients of list ADS-L <<ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Bill Smith wonders:
>David Justice has just made a spectacular catch preventing the
>winning run from coming in.  The announcer says, "If Justice doesn't
>catch that it's
>a double and the go-ahead run is in."
>Is this general sportscasterese, along with the use of the simple
>present for what is going on right now or just Bravesese?

It is indeed general sportscasterese, not limited to the Braves or to
baseball.  It's used all the time in play-by-play for e.g. football (if he
doesn't deflect that pass, it goes for an easy touchdown) or basketball ("If
the Glide doesn't give that hard foul, Kidd goes in for an uncontested
lay-up").  Historical present counterfactual?  (Note that this form can be
used in commenting on an instant replay, but not as felicitously by a
sportscaster showing the videotape later that night in a highlight show.)

Larry
===========

(This construction was also mentioned by David Carkeet, author of
various novels with a linguist hero, in a New York Times "On
Language" column on July 22, 2000.)

L


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  6 18:19:16 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 14:19:16 -0400
Subject: Nosh; All Things Considered
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.141916.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NOSH

A JOURNEY THROUGH PERSIA, ARMENIA, AND ASIA MINOR,
TON CONSTANTINOPLE, IN THE YEARS 1808 and 1809
by James Morier
Philadelphia: published by M. Carey, and Wells & Lilly, Boston
1816

Pg. 175:  The kabob shops (or eating houses, on the plan of those in Turkey) seemed to be equally clean and well arranged.

Pg. 244:  ...shalwar...
(OED has 1824, also by J. Morier.  Again, this is probably in the 1812 edition.  Other clothing terms listed on the page are not in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 286:  On his arrival he eats his choshta, or intermediate meal, and then sleeps.  At sunset he takes another repast (his noshta); and his servants then pack up every thing ready for his departure next morning.
(Nosh?  OED has that from 1917 as a noun, 1957 as a verb.  What does "noshta" mean?--ed.)

Pg. 340:  ..._yaourt_ and cold _pillau_.

Pg. 343:  ..eat some soup and meat-balls*...
*"_Chorbah_, soup; _dolmah_, meat-balls, in vine leaves."

Pg. 355:  ..._menzils_, or day's journey...
(About the second cite for this--ed.)

-------------------------------------------------------------
ALL THINGS CONSIDERED

   This Sunday, at about 11 a.m., WNYC, "All Things Considered" with Dean Olsher will discuss the New York Public Library.
   David Shulman just told me that he will be interviewed tomorrow for the show.

(O.T.:  Do not nosh all things considered.)


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun  6 19:20:30 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 12:20:30 -0700
Subject: Two questions--myself and flush out
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.122030.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have recently noticed two different usages that I'd
like to know more about. The first is the use of
"myself" in place of both "me" and "I".

Ex.

1. Send the document to Bob and myself.
2. Bob and myself will be heading up the meeting.

I thought it might be a way of avoiding the conundrum
of rembering which pronoun to use. However, I have no
idea if there is a long history to this usage or not,
so if anyone has any info on this, I'd appreciate it.

The second is the term "flush out" to mean "flesh
out".    I heard fairly often at my work, and assumed
it was some sort of mispronunciation that's going
around. I was very surprised to see it in print in The
Ten-Day MBA by Steven Silberger: p. 20 "The following
questions help to flush that out."  Any
thoughts/history on this one?

Thanks!

Ed Keer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Jun  6 19:46:57 2002
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 15:46:57 -0400
Subject: ..more words may be needed..
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.154657.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In today's (6 June 2002) Wall Street Journal, on p. D1, bottom of page,
is a Moving On article by Jeffrey Zaslow, titled:  Searching for a Word
or a Simple Way For Parents to Say They've Lost a Child.

Essentially, the commentary deals with the need for a word to describe
"a parent who has lost a child".  "Surviving parents in growing numbers
are talking about rewriting the language of grief."

"The English language has about 450,000 commonly used words, but more
may be needed.  What do you call someone who has lost a sibling or had a
miscarriage?  Or a gay person whose partner has died?  Or an elderly
person who has lost every friend and relative?  So many heartaches can't
be found in the dictionary."

Jeffrey Kacirk, author of Forgotten English is mentioned, as is Howard
Rheingold, author of They Have a Word For It.

"Now that parents are talking more (in support groups), they're more
aware of the shadings and inferences of language."  Words with which
those parents are uncomfortable are mentioned.
================

The above is sent merely as an FYI item.

George Cole
Shippensburg University


From self at TOWSE.COM  Thu Jun  6 19:47:59 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 12:47:59 -0700
Subject: Two questions--myself and flush out
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.124759.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ed Keer wrote:

> The second is the term "flush out" to mean "flesh
> out".    I heard fairly often at my work, and assumed
> it was some sort of mispronunciation that's going
> around. I was very surprised to see it in print in The
> Ten-Day MBA by Steven Silberger: p. 20 "The following
> questions help to flush that out."  Any
> thoughts/history on this one?

In software engineering, one flushes a queue or flushes a buffer,
to force the contents out and leave it empty and pristine for
later use.

In RL, one directs a stream of water down a small drain pipe at
high force to get the dead chipmunk out of the pipe and available
for disposal in the nearest trashcan.

Are you sure that Silberger isn't using "flush that out" to mean
dragging some issue out into the open where it can be dissected
and discussed?

Sal
--
useful links for writers:
<http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Thu Jun  6 20:15:59 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 13:15:59 -0700
Subject: Nosh; All Things Considered
In-Reply-To: <4C318DD8.7770DEE2.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.131559.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My only guess is that it might be related to the Persian "nosh"= "drink".
I can't explain the -ta or what it would mean. It only appears as a loan
word in Turkish where the -ta could be a locative suffix, but that doesn't
make much sense.

allen

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> NOSH
>
> A JOURNEY THROUGH PERSIA, ARMENIA, AND ASIA MINOR,
> TON CONSTANTINOPLE, IN THE YEARS 1808 and 1809
> by James Morier
> Philadelphia: published by M. Carey, and Wells & Lilly, Boston
> 1816
>
>
> Pg. 286:  On his arrival he eats his choshta, or intermediate meal, and
  then sleeps.  At sunset he takes another repast (his noshta); and his
  servants then pack up every thing ready for his departure next morning.
> (Nosh?  OED has that from 1917 as a noun, 1957 as a verb.  What does
  "noshta" mean?--ed.)


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Thu Jun  6 20:17:04 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:17:04 -0400
Subject: nil as 0-0? (was: Evolving subjunctive)
In-Reply-To: <p04320409b925338eaa76@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.161704.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Speaking of sportscasterese, I heard this on the radio this afternoon,
approximate quote from memory:

"The Red Sox game against [whoever] is nil at the moment, zero-zero in
the third."

I've heard "nil" used for a score of zero, but only for one team at a
time, as in "two-nil", and I associate it more with UK than US usage.
Here it clearly was used to mean 'no score for either team', which is
new to me.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Thu Jun  6 20:27:02 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:27:02 -0400
Subject: Two questions--myself and flush out
In-Reply-To: <3CFFBC6F.5CFE9C5D@towse.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.162702.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Towse wrote:

#Ed Keer wrote:
#
#> The second is the term "flush out" to mean "flesh
#> out".    I heard fairly often at my work, and assumed
#> it was some sort of mispronunciation that's going
#> around. I was very surprised to see it in print in The
#> Ten-Day MBA by Steven Silberger: p. 20 "The following
#> questions help to flush that out."  Any
#> thoughts/history on this one?
#
#In RL, one directs a stream of water down a small drain pipe at
#high force to get the dead chipmunk out of the pipe and available
#for disposal in the nearest trashcan.

I've seen this fairly often meaning 'to force or frighten out of
hiding'. OED compact edn has flush as vt, 2a: To cause to fly or take
wing; to put up, start; also with _up_. (citations 1450-1888, all
referring to hunting birds).
 2b, transf. and fig.: To reveal; to bring into the open; to drive
_out_. (cits. 1950-71, apparently referring only to persons but unclear
on the 1971)

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Thu Jun  6 20:27:46 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:27:46 -0400
Subject: Two questions--myself and flush out
In-Reply-To: <20020606192030.51127.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.162746.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My son and I noticed ten years ago that the vowels in "flesh" and "flush"
(in any context followed by a voiceless consonant) seemed to be merging in
the mouths of teenage suburban girls in the Cleveland area.  We thought of
it as Valley Girl talk.

--Charles Wells

>I have recently noticed two different usages that I'd
>like to know more about. The first is the use of
>"myself" in place of both "me" and "I".
>
>Ex.
>
>1. Send the document to Bob and myself.
>2. Bob and myself will be heading up the meeting.
>
>I thought it might be a way of avoiding the conundrum
>of rembering which pronoun to use. However, I have no
>idea if there is a long history to this usage or not,
>so if anyone has any info on this, I'd appreciate it.
>
>The second is the term "flush out" to mean "flesh
>out".    I heard fairly often at my work, and assumed
>it was some sort of mispronunciation that's going
>around. I was very surprised to see it in print in The
>Ten-Day MBA by Steven Silberger: p. 20 "The following
>questions help to flush that out."  Any
>thoughts/history on this one?
>
>Thanks!
>
>Ed Keer
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com



Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET  Thu Jun  6 20:08:02 2002
From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:08:02 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.160802.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well said, RK.

Bob

http://www.michigan.gov/deq/1,1607,7-135-3313_3675---,00.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Kennerly <rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: Is there a better term?


> ><))));>anger. Racial profiling has too often been used by lower
> ><))));>middle class
> ><))));>whites in law enforcement to revenge themselves against
> ><))));>highly successful
>
> Nice fantasy, but a majority of the NJ State Police are college educated
and
> all make a professional salary.  The profiling schemes they've admitted in
> court was pushed down on them in an institutional way by their
supervisors,
> relying on pop psychology, pseudoscience and selectively sampled
> statistically data to predetermine the outcome--Nazis did the same thing.
> Driving while black is still an offense in a lot of places, we shouldn't
> honor NJ alone.
>
> ><))));>there probably are. You suggest a one way ticket, but that is
easily
>
> Trip profiling was just one example of a more successful method of drug
> interdiction that works better than racial profiling for US Customs, and
it
> does take into account the country that issued your passport.  But this
> problem, like drug interdiction,  is also an ever shifting puzzle--like a
> ball a clay, if you squeeze here, it pops out somewhere else--just like
the
> current problem.
>
> ><))));>should a 50 year old woman
> ><))));>from Denmark be
> ><))));>treated in the same way as a 28 year old man from Saudi Arabia?
> ><))));>
>
> Ah, by your own example we're back to physical attributes to determine who
> is singled out for intense scrutiny--if white, all right.  If brown, strip
> them down.   And we're going to let who, exactly, make these decisions?
> Those highly professional--cum federal employees--with a wand and a  badge
> at the gates nowadays? And thanks for the information that there are no
> aging white terrorists--not even a few old left over bader meinhoff folks
in
> Germany? no old desperate Europeans muling drugs or worse for rent money?
no
> grandmotherly dupes inadvertently carrying somebody else's package for a
> grandchild back home? or traveling with bags that their angry radicalized
> Indonesian house slave packed for them?  Amazing insight.  Of course,
until
> 911 the worst mass murderer in US history was a super patriotic white guy,
> an Army veteran living in the Midwest, who no one would suspect, but it's
> too much trouble to intensely scrutinize white folks, too many of 'em.
>
> But that's okay, after all after 911 the black community, the oriental
> community and the latino community were right in there with everybody
else,
> pitching like a lodge brother, to have people of Arab descent thrown off
of
> planes and ghettoized in neighborhoods.  The fact that they've been there
> makes it particularly wrong.   But, listen it's a natural response.  We're
> all right, they're not.  But the beauty America is that through our ideals
> we can rise above that, despite our historical lapses.
>
> In any event, being of demonstrated cleverness, well-financed, and
patient,
> I'm sure, regardless of what we do, a determined group of
terrorists--maybe
> Filipino or Malaysian or Indonesian this time--will strike again.  But it
> might just be another Timothy  McVeigh, too.  The question is where do we
> draw that line which, if crossed, we stop being America?  If we abandon
our
> ideals yet survive physically, is this country still American?  Did we not
> learn anything from the interment of Americans of Japanese descent?  The
> ghettoization of the Jews?  The hell German-Americans lived at the hands
of
> their neighbors during the war?
>
> ><))));>Maybe I'm just old fashioned
>
> Yep, and it's that old fashioned thinking that will open the door to allow
> the next group of terrorist to strike.
>
> rhk
>


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Thu Jun  6 22:02:49 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:02:49 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
In-Reply-To: <3CFF2D3E.11322.9076865@localhost>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.180249.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

><))));>So tell me, who was doing the racial profiling in that case?

Unfortunate but irrelevant example.  There is a vast difference between
stereotyping by individuals and government sanctioned, police empowered,
racial profiling.   One results in an unsatisfactory social encounter.  The
other can result in a hand covered by a greased glove probing your nether
regions while you stand naked in front of a one-way mirror, or worse.

rhk


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Jun  6 23:18:35 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 19:18:35 -0400
Subject: Two questions--myself and flush out
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20020606162544.00b6a230@mail.oberlin.net>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.191835.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The vowel of "flesh" moving to that of "flush" is a late stage of the
Northern Cities Shift. Not surprising in Cleveland (with no need for
Valley Girl interpretation).

dInIs


>My son and I noticed ten years ago that the vowels in "flesh" and "flush"
>(in any context followed by a voiceless consonant) seemed to be merging in
>the mouths of teenage suburban girls in the Cleveland area.  We thought of
>it as Valley Girl talk.
>
>--Charles Wells
>
>>I have recently noticed two different usages that I'd
>>like to know more about. The first is the use of
>>"myself" in place of both "me" and "I".
>>
>>Ex.
>>
>>1. Send the document to Bob and myself.
>>2. Bob and myself will be heading up the meeting.
>>
>>I thought it might be a way of avoiding the conundrum
>>of rembering which pronoun to use. However, I have no
>>idea if there is a long history to this usage or not,
>>so if anyone has any info on this, I'd appreciate it.
>>
>>The second is the term "flush out" to mean "flesh
>>out".    I heard fairly often at my work, and assumed
>>it was some sort of mispronunciation that's going
>>around. I was very surprised to see it in print in The
>>Ten-Day MBA by Steven Silberger: p. 20 "The following
>>questions help to flush that out."  Any
>>thoughts/history on this one?
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>>Ed Keer
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>>http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>Charles Wells
>professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
>personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
>genealogical website:
>http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
>NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  6 23:46:01 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 19:46:01 EDT
Subject: Yurt, Baidar (1774); Angora (1784)
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.194601.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

YURT, BAIDAR

AN ACCOUNT OF THE NEW NORTHERN ARCHIPELAGO, LATELY DISCOVERED BY THE RUSSIANS
by Mr. J. von Staehlin
London: C. Heydinger
1774

   This was in German in 1768, so the original manuscript is older.  OED has
its first "suslik" from this book--the only citation used.  It's about a
40-page book.  How someone missed about 20 "jurt" cites is beyond me.
    This is one of the earliest books for Alaska.  Many of the terms here are
not in OED.

Pg. 24:  The berries that grow on the island, though very sparingly, are the
common _Schichsa_ and _Golubel_.  On the contrary, the roots for food,
namely, the _Kutarnick_, and the red root, grow in such quantities, as to
afford a plentiful provision for the inhabitants.
(Terms are not in the OED...I KNEW Alaska had the common shiksa--ed.)

Pg. 25:
(a) _Baidars_ are large boats, made of whales ribs, bound together with
hoops, and covered over with the skins of sea-dogs, sea-cows, and other sea
animals.
(OED has 1834 for "bidarka"--ed.)

Pg. 27:  The island produces plenty of vegetab le food; such as the
_Kutarnik_, the red root, and the _Sarana_.
(OED?--ed.)

Pg. 28:  The inhabitants on the low lands have green huts, which they call
_Jurts_, where they constantly live.
(I had posted a 1780 "yurt."  OED's first cite is 1784, but it's from Cook's
voyage of 1779.  The next cite is 1780.  Again, this is from 1774 in English,
1768 in German--ed.)

Pg. 31:  ...several other species, known only in these waters, and called
_Kirschutsch_, _Chaiko_, _Pestraiki_, _Postuschina_, &c.
(OED?--ed.)

Pg. 33:  They live in _Jurts_ or cellars under ground...
(One of many other "jurts" here.  But why "under" ground?  I stayed in a yurt
hut "above" ground--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
ANGORA (continued)

THE PRESENT STATE OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE
translated from the French manuscript of Elias Habesci
London: R. Baldwin
1784

   There's a word glossary at the beginning of the book, but I didn't see any
antedates in "fetvah" and "medresse" and "kiosc" and "hamam" and others.  No
food terms were in the glossary, and very few were in the book.

Pg. 425:  The camlets are made at  _Angora_, in _Natolia_, a country which
abounds in fine wool...

Pg. 430:  The principal article taken by the Dutch in return is _Angora_
goats hair.


From self at TOWSE.COM  Fri Jun  7 00:04:36 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 17:04:36 -0700
Subject: Yurt, Baidar (1774); Angora (1784)
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.170436.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> Pg. 33:  They live in _Jurts_ or cellars under ground...
> (One of many other "jurts" here.  But why "under" ground?  I stayed in a yurt
> hut "above" ground--ed.)

Perhaps the author meant they lived in either jurts or cellars
under ground.

Is there any other instance in the book of "or" so you can check
whether the author used "either"/"or" pairing?

Sal
--
useful links for writers:
<http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Jun  7 00:17:02 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 20:17:02 -0400
Subject: Yurt, Baidar (1774); Angora (1784)
In-Reply-To: <70.1dd6d311.2a314e39@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.201702.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

#   This was in German in 1768, so the original manuscript is older.  OED has
#its first "suslik" from this book--the only citation used.

I just sent email to *our* first and only Suslik, in Paris. When our
daughter Susannah was born we wanted a good nickname to call her, and
anything like "Susie" was out of the question (personal esthetics). We
asked a Russian couple we knew for suggestions, and they suggested
"suslik", as the name of an animal that lives in burrows and makes a
whistling sound and is often thought of as cute. That has been her
nickname, with her mother and me, ever since.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  7 00:45:53 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 20:45:53 EDT
Subject: Yurt, Baidar (1774); Angora (1784)
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.204553.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/06/2002 7:46:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

> .I KNEW Alaska had the common shiksa

Yes.  Not one of the frozen Chosen.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Fri Jun  7 03:04:27 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 23:04:27 -0400
Subject: Nosh; All Things Considered
In-Reply-To: <4C318DD8.7770DEE2.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.230427.0400.>

> ALL THINGS CONSIDERED
>
>  This Sunday, at about 11 a.m., WNYC, "All Things Considered" with Dean Olsher
> will discuss the New York Public Library.

No, Dean Olsher hosts "The Next Big Thing." It's kind of a New York-centric
knock off of "This American Life." There's some decent voiced fiction
sometimes (I dunno how else to describe the parts I like, except to say:
it's like the writing on the last page of the New Yorker but read by actors
with nice voices) and it's not a bad way to pass an hour as long as you're
also doing something else.

http://www.wnyc.org/new/NextBigThing/NextBigThingDescription.html

--

Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
http://www.worldnewyork.org/
646 296 2260


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  7 06:29:36 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 02:29:36 EDT
Subject: Whymper's Alaska/California slang (1868)
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.022936.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TRAVEL AND ADVENTURE
IN THE TERRITORY OF ALASKA
by Frederick Whymper
New York: Harper Brothers
1869

   OED has about 20 cites from this book and gives it as 1868.
   I just spent a frustrating half hour looking through the RHHDAS and the
ADS-L archives for "eat crow"--maybe I looked in the wrong places.  Anyway,
I'll present the items (all interesting, but not all antedates) and you can
look 'em up.

Pg. 42:  They begged for a "potlatch" or gift, and, glad to get rid of them,
I acceded to their request for a little flour, tobacco, etc.
(I think this would be OED's second "potlatch"--ed.)

Pg. 42:  *"King George man," in the Chinook jargoon (a mixture of Emglish,
French, and Indian, used as a means of converse among most of the white men
and natives of the coast), simply menas an Englishman, and was originated by
the fact that our first acquaintance with them was made in the Georgian era.
"Boston man," or "Boston" simply, stands for an American; the first vessels
bearing the stars and stripes hailed from that port.
(Would be the third "Boston" cite in DARE--ed.)

Pg. 50:  He afterward told us, pointing back to the place with a shudder,
"_Hyu si-wash hyack clattawa keekwully ya-wa_!"--"Many savages (Indians) had
quickly gone to the bottom there," or had found a watery grave.

Pg. 54:  ...were at work "blazing," _i. e._, marking the trees with an axe to
show where the trail should go.

Pg. 56:  The ideal Red-skin...
Pg. 57:  ...the "pale-faces."

Pg. 102:  ...ranging from Cognac to raw _vodka_, of a class which can only be
described by a Californian term as "chain lightning"...
(RHHDAS has "chain lightning" from 1837.  California term?--ed.)

Pg. 116:  Perhaps quite as lucid an explanation as you could get from an
agricultural laborer or a "city Arab" at home.
(DARE's earliest "Arab" is 1903?--ed.)

Pg. 136:  When we were tired of games--one of them a Russian version of "hunt
the slipper"...

Pg. 189:  My first acquaintance with the Yukon, in common with several of my
companions, was made sliding down the bank at a rate of "2.40" (to use an
Americanism),* comfortably seated on my snow-shoes.
*Two minutes forty seconds is the time taken by a high-class trotting-horse
to run a mile.

Pg. 198:  Our banquet of baked ptarmigan and fried ham, pancakes (known,
reader, by the poetical name of "flap-jacks") molasses (known by us as
"long-tailed sugar"), and coffee, pleased our Russian friends well, but our
tea was not to their standard.

Pg. 229:  They "ken eat crow, tho' they don't hanker arter it."
(The original wording of OED's first "eat crow" cite?--ed.)

Pg. 300:  Again Fr'isco (as her citizens lovingly call her)...
(Peter Tamony would disagree with that--ed.)

Pg. 300:  ...the advertising "medium" walking with his boards _a la
sandwich_...

Pg. 301:  There was certainly the "Emperor Norton," a kind of half-witted
fellow, clothed in regimentals, who issued pompous proclamations, and
subsisted by levying black-mail on those who were amused by his fooleries, or
on the "free lunches" of the bar-rooms.

Pg. 304:  Although San Francisco is full of bar-rooms, "saloons," and Dutch
_lager bier_ cellars (the German family are all called Dutchman in San
Francisco, and the same title is given usually to Norwegians, Swedes, and
Danes--I have even known a Switzer called a Dutchman!), there is little
drunkenness to be observed.

Pg. 308:  ...was, in Californian phraselogy, a "high-toned and elegant"
affair.  The "carte" included sharks' fins, birds'-nest soup, reindeer
sinews, geranium and violet cakes, samshoo and rose wine, but was not
deficient in the good things of our _cuisine_, accompanied by an unlimited
supply of champagne.
(No "chop suey" in this 1868 Californian Chinese menu--ed.)

Pg. 309:  SOCIETY in the "Bay City," though still a little "mixed," to use a
Californian phrase, is, taking it altogether, a much heartier, jollier,
sincerer thing than elsewhere.  Californians will have none of the airs of
the high and mighty; they call it "putting on frills," they say that sort of
thing is "played out," and recommend such to "vamose the ranch," or get from
their sight.  Ask them how they are, and the answer is pat, "Oh, gay and
festive," with probably the affirmative positive, "you bet," or may be "you
bet your boots."  If a preacher, actor, or writer indulges in an exaggerated
manner, they say "he piles on the agony" too much, has a "spread-eagle" or
"high-falutin" style about him.  The derivation of the last term is involved
in mystery.  Many of the common expressions are taken from mining operations
and experiences.  "It panned out well," means that "it gave good returns."
"Show," or "color," from the indications of gold in gravel or sand, are words
used in various shapes.  "I have not a show," means I have no chance.  "We
have not seen the 'color' of his money," means he has not paid up a farthing.
 "Prospect"--to search for gold--is used in many ways; ask if a speculation
promises well, they may answer, "It prospects well, (Pg. 310--ed.) if we can
only make the riffle," the last an allusion to successfully getting over a
"rapid" or "riffle" on a river.  Or,if the thing has disappointed, it may be,
"We got down to the 'bed rock," and found it a 'bilk'"--Californian for a
humbug.
   If one looks anxious, they say, "There's a heap of trouble on the old
man's mind;" and if one is got up elaborately in a "biled shirt" (_i. e._,
white shirt), a "stove-pipe" (or as we say, "chimney-pot") hat, and a suit of
new broadcloth, one is apt to be asked, "You've rather spread yourself,
haven't you?"  It is common for men to shave a good deal, and the city is
full of barbers' shops, where you can get yourself shaved and your boots
blacked at one and the same time.  These establishments are often luxuriously
fitted up, and beat any thing of the kind to be seen in the "Eastern" States.
 Beards are termed "chin-whiskers," and our "whiskers" are distinguished as
side-whiskers."  The terms for most things are on a more magnificent scale
than with us.  A bar-room is invariably a "saloon," an eating-house, a
"restaurant" (pronounced in an ANglicized manner), and a shop is a "store."
A good substantial repast is known as a "square" meal all over this coast,
and the term is applied to many other things.  A "square" drink is a "deep,
deep draught," and a good "square fight" is an encounter or "muss" where the
opponents were in earnest.  Some of these terms are common to the "Western"
States and outlying "territories," but can not be regarded as full-blooded
Americanisms.  They attract just as much notice from "Eastern" men travelling
in California as they do from Europeans.
   Listen to a quarrel in the streets: one calls the other a "regular dead
beat!" at which he, in return, threatens to "put a head on him!" whereupon
the first sneeringly retorts, "up a flume," the equivalent of a vulgar
cockney's (Pg. 311--ed.) "over the left."  If one or the other "weakens," or
shows signs of "caving" in and leaving, he is said to "get up and dust."  It
is then the business of his opponent to "corral" him in a corner--a term
taken from the Spanish for catching and shutting up cattle in an enclosure.
This last phrase is used in a variety of ways.  A police officer "corrals" an
offender, a greedy man at table "corrals" all the delicacies, and a broker
"corrals" all the stock of a company, and controls the market, and so on.

(David Shulman told me the guy's name and the program name, and I typed what
he told me...A 1741 "shiksa" and "yurt" probably tomorrow--ed.)


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Fri Jun  7 07:36:10 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 00:36:10 -0700
Subject: Example of apparent Principle A violation
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.003610.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The "Polite Reflexive" seems to be emerging as standard in British English
(or are the Welsh just ahead of the curve?). Two examples in one
paragraph! What say you, Lynne?

        Rudy


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:42:06 -0700
>From: "Martin Padget" <mtp at aber.ac.uk>

>The conference notice below hopefully will be of interest to yourself and
>colleagues.  Information about the conference is being circulated on
>various list servers, but I am sending an email directly to yourself in
>the hope that the message will reach you and your colleagues in American
>literature/Ameridan Studies directly.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Martin Padget
>
>
>British Association for American Studies, Annual Conference, 2003
>University of Wales, Aberystwyth
>April 11-14, 2003


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  7 12:53:59 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 08:53:59 -0400
Subject: dubious usages
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.085359.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Already this morning I have encountered:

1.  at a construction area the highway people posted signs showing how to get to businesses whose normal access to the main roads had been blocked off by the construction.  One such sign read "DINER".  If you follow it, you will find yourself at a McDonald's.

2.  a porno spam message in my e-mailbox entitled "Napster of Porn !!!"

Also some notes to Barry Popik:  I'm not sure but I think the "Potlatch" was a custom of American Indians in the Columbia River/Puget Sound area, not Alaska.

As for "city Arab", that apparently was a well-known usage in England well before 1903---Conan Doyle in his Sherlock Holmes stories was found of referring to "street Arabs"

in my experience, a pancake/hotcake/griddlecake is a "flapjack" ONLY if it gets turned by being tossed well up into the air

"Emperor Norton" was a well-documented San Francisco character.  I have never seen him described as "half-witted"; from most descriptions he was an intelligent and well-educated man who had what was then probably called "dementia", his idee fixe being that he was the Emperor of something.  "blackmail" is an unlikely term in this context, especially considering the word "amused" in the same line.  "Levying taxes" is a plausible emendation.

A "biled shirt" should be a starched shirt ("boiled shirt", as it is boiled in starch) rather than simply a white shirt.  I am told that "stuffed shirt" meaning a pompous man is a reference to the idea that men who went to the trouble of wearing "stuffed" or starched shirts were necessarily putting on airs.

       - Jim Landau


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Fri Jun  7 16:14:27 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:14:27 -0700
Subject: Yurt, Baidar (1774); Angora (1784)
In-Reply-To: <70.1dd6d311.2a314e39@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.091427.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> AN ACCOUNT OF THE NEW NORTHERN ARCHIPELAGO, LATELY DISCOVERED BY THE RUSSIANS
> by Mr. J. von Staehlin
> London: C. Heydinger
> 1774
>
> Pg. 31:  ...several other species, known only in these waters, and called
> _Kirschutsch_, _Chaiko_, _Pestraiki_, _Postuschina_, &c.
> (OED?--ed.)
>

Species of what? Fish?

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Fri Jun  7 18:25:29 2002
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:25:29 -0400
Subject: potlatch (was Re: dubious usages}
In-Reply-To: <3BA8459B.0750C220.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.142529.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Potlatches were (and in the odd case, still are) a custom of northwest
coastal tribes, stretching from Puget Sound and the Kitsap Peninsula all
the way up the coast of British Columbia to the entire Gulf Coast of lower
Alaska, including areas where both Juneau and Anchorage are today. The
Tlingit nation in particular had a huge geographic range and many
sub-tribes. Tribes would come from many miles inland to gigantic
potlatches, but there were also many smaller (relatively speaking, anyway)
local potlatches. Puget Sound actually lies toward the southern end of the
geographic range of the tribes that shared the potlatch culture, with the
Columbia River marking the more-or-less official furthest southern
boundary. Totem poles with clan histories were raised at potlatches, and
these meetings were so significant that the government saw them as a threat
and banned them.

--Wendalyn Nichols, northwest born and bred

At 08:53 AM 6/7/02 -0400, James A. Landau wrote:
>Already this morning I have encountered:
>
>1.  at a construction area the highway people posted signs showing how to
>get to businesses whose normal access to the main roads had been blocked
>off by the construction.  One such sign read "DINER".  If you follow it,
>you will find yourself at a McDonald's.
>
>2.  a porno spam message in my e-mailbox entitled "Napster of Porn !!!"
>
>Also some notes to Barry Popik:  I'm not sure but I think the "Potlatch"
>was a custom of American Indians in the Columbia River/Puget Sound area,
>not Alaska.
>
>As for "city Arab", that apparently was a well-known usage in England well
>before 1903---Conan Doyle in his Sherlock Holmes stories was found of
>referring to "street Arabs"
>
>in my experience, a pancake/hotcake/griddlecake is a "flapjack" ONLY if it
>gets turned by being tossed well up into the air
>
>"Emperor Norton" was a well-documented San Francisco character.  I have
>never seen him described as "half-witted"; from most descriptions he was
>an intelligent and well-educated man who had what was then probably called
>"dementia", his idee fixe being that he was the Emperor of
>something.  "blackmail" is an unlikely term in this context, especially
>considering the word "amused" in the same line.  "Levying taxes" is a
>plausible emendation.
>
>A "biled shirt" should be a starched shirt ("boiled shirt", as it is
>boiled in starch) rather than simply a white shirt.  I am told that
>"stuffed shirt" meaning a pompous man is a reference to the idea that men
>who went to the trouble of wearing "stuffed" or starched shirts were
>necessarily putting on airs.
>
>        - Jim Landau


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Fri Jun  7 19:09:01 2002
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:09:01 -0400
Subject: Is there a better term?
In-Reply-To: <NJEFLDNDEIDMAKCHIMJGGECKCFAA.rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.150901.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I take your point about the difference in the scope between a
personal situation and a government policy.  But I did see
something analogous between this little exchange and the global
problem we're facing now, in that it involved a clash between two
completely legitimate concerns:  on the one hand, the need to
ensure safety by reacting defensively to a previously-experienced
pattern of danger;  on the other hand, the need to respect the
dignity of persons who might mistakenly be perceived as
dangerous.  It seems inevitable to me that one concern will trump
the other, at least some of the time, and not because any one
group has a monopoly on prejudice and stupidity:  forgive my
cynicism, but think it's pretty universally distributed.

Joanne


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  7 19:42:04 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:42:04 -0400
Subject: Computer proverbs for Fred Shapiro
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.154204.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computer) has acquired the backronym "[the] Really Interesting Stuff is in the Compiler".

There are other computer backronyms, many satirical (e.g. IBM = "Itty Bitty Machines"), but this is the only one I know of that expresses a serious thought.

I don't know when the acronym RISC first appeared.  If I had to guess, I'd say the mid-1980's.  However, the first commercially successful RISC computer was the CDC 6600 of circa 1963, and the idea of RISC computers was advocated by Alan M. Turing way back in 1945, when the only electronic computers in existence were the Colossi at Bletchley and Zuse's machine in Germany.

Also, do you have the (now long obsolete) proverb "Nobody ever got fired for recommending IBM"?

     - James A. Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  8 01:20:00 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 21:20:00 EDT
Subject: Big Four; Big Father; Alaskan terms (1741-1742)
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.212000.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BIG FOUR

Big Four  (Denali National Park, Alaska)--moose, caribou, wolf, brown bear
Big Five (Kruger National Park, South Africa)--buffalo, rhino, elephant,
lion, leopard

   I will be in Alaska for about eight days, beginning June 25.  Denali
appears to pump its "big four" as Africa does its "big five" animals.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BIG FATHER

A JOURNEY TO ALASKA IN THE YEAR 1868:
BEING A DIARY OF THE LATE EMIL TEICHMANN
edited with an introduction by his son Oskar
Argosy-Antiquarian Ltd., New York
1963

Pg. 47:  The little town, which on our previous visit had been so quiet, was
now somewhat excited by the arrival of a delegation consisting of three
Indian chiefs fromj Eastern Oregon, who were about to make the long journey
to Washington in order to lay before the "Big Father" (as they call the
President) complaints about the non-delivery of the supplies of blankets and
foodstuffs which they has hitherto received regularly, to carry them through
the winter months.

Pg. 112:  A this time the majority of the "Bucks" (or men) were away on a
fishing expedition to the River Nass...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
JOURNAL OF A VOYAGE WITH BERING, 1741-1742
by Georg Wilhelm Steller
edited and with an introduction by O. W. Frost
translated by Margritt A. Engel and O. W. Frost
Stanford University Press, Stanford, CA
1988

   I don't know what date OED wants to give this, but it has tons of terms.

Pg. 38:
1793  Peter Simon Pallas's edition of Steller's journal, issued in St.
Petersburg.
1925  First complete English translation of Steller's journal by Leonhard
Stejneger, based on Pallas's edition.

Pg. 65:  ...leftover _iukola_, or dried fish...
Pg. 65:  ...blue mussels or _musculi_...

Pg. 67:  _Lukoshki_, or receptacles made of bark...

Pg. 91:  ...Greenland pigeons, sea parrots, and _michagatkas_.
Pg. 91:  Of fish, we saw _malma_ and _ramsha_.

Pg. 93:  Excepting the lingonberries and black crowberries (or _shiksha_)
found here abundantly, the plants of greatest use to us were the magnificent
antisorbutic plants, such as _Cochlearia_, _Lapathum folio cubitali_,
_Gentiana_, and other cresslike plants that I gathered only for my use and
the Captain-Commander's.

Pg. 120:  ...a diver, called _starik_, came flying aboard ship at nighttime.

Pg. 129:  ...partly slaying them with an ax, partly stabbing them with a
Iakut _palma_.

Pg. 142:  ...Luka Alekseev's yurt.
("Yurt" is also on two other pages, and is listed in the index--ed.)

Pg. 143:  Instead, every day we fried fresh Siberian _kolaches_, or cakes, in
seal or whale oil and finally in manatee fat.
(OED has "kolach" as a Czech word, not a Russian one.  OED's first citation
is 1918, when it was coined by novelist Willa Cather.  Boy, this is bad--ed.)

Pg. 147:  The nursing otters, which because of their poor pelts are called
_medvedki_, or young bears, can be compared at all times with a nursing lamb
because of their tenderness, both roasted and boiled.

Pg. 156:  Afterwards Lieutenant Waxell invited each and all to his dwelling,
and in the absence of other beverages entertained us with Mongolian
_saturan_, or tea soup, with flour roasted in butter.
("Saturan" is not in OED?--ed.)

Pg. 227:
   Glossary
Terms below are defined as Steller used them.
ADJUNCT...
AMBAR (Russian).  Structure for storing supplies, including food.  The
underground structure Steller found on Kayak Island (Chapter 2) he also
called a _cellar_.  Underground swellings on Kamchatka, the Aleutians, and
along the Alaska coastline were called _barabaras_ (Kamchadal).
ARSHIN (Russian).  28 inches.
BAIDAR (Russian).  Large, open, skin-covered, wood-framed boat rowed with
oars.  The Aleut skinboat Steller described (Chapter 5) became known as a
_baidarka_ or _kayak_ (Aleut); it is portable, has a deck with a hatch, and
is propelled by a single paddle with a blade at each end.
CAPTAIN-COMMANDER...
COSSSACK (Tatar).  Any hired person, or soldier or sailor, on RUssia's
frontier.
ELL (Old English)...
FATHOM (English)...
FLEET MASTER...
GALLIOT (Latin)...
GEODESIST (Greek)...
MILE, Dutch or German...
Pg. 228:
NOS (Russian).  Cape, peninsula; literally "nose."
OSTROG (Russian).  Fortified settlement.  In his _Beschreibung von dem Lande
Kamtschatka_, Steller applied the term to any settlement, whether Russian for
or native village, on Kamchatka.
PACKET BOAT...
PROMYSEL (Russian).  A hunt.  In SIberia and the North Pacific, a hunter,
trapper, or trader was known as a _promyshlennik_.
PUD (Russian).  36 pounds.
SLUZHIV (Russian).  Low-ranking government employee, civilian or military.
VERST (Russian).  0.66 English statute miles.
YAWL (Dutch).


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  8 17:13:35 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 13:13:35 -0400
Subject: Turkish national epithets (1801)
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.131335.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A SURVEY OF THE TURKISH EMPIRE
by W. Efon
the third edition
London: T. Cadell
1801

   I don't know the dates of the first two editions.  There's much in this book, but I found the epithets very interesting.  The last (gypsy-chingani) adds to my work on gypsy names.
   The first and third column entries are in italics, but I'm too lazy to do that and I've only got a few minutes.

Pg. 192:
   EPITHETS which the Turks apply to those who are not Osmanlis, and which they often use to denominate their nation.

Albanians...gut-sellers...(giguirgee)
Armenians...t-rd eaters, dirt-eaters, also, pack-carriers...(bokchee)
Bosniaks and Bulgarians...vagabonds...(potur)
Christians...idolaters...(purpurest)
Dutch...cheese-mongers...(penirgee)
English...atheists...(dinsis) i.e. having no religion
Flemmings...panders...(felamink, pezevink)
French...faithless...(fransis, imansis)
Georgians...louse-eaters...(bityeyedsi)
Germans...infidel blasphemers...(gurur kiafer)
Greeks of the islands...hares...(tawshan)
Italians or Franks...many-coloured...(firenki, hassarrenki)
Jews...mangy dogs...(chefut)
Moldavians...drones...(bogdon, nadan)
Poles...insolent infidels...(fudul guiaur)
Russians...mad infidels...(russ, menkius)
Spaniards...lazy...(tembel)
Tatars...carrion-eaters...(lashyeyedgee)
Walachians...gypsies...(chingani)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  8 17:19:29 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 13:19:29 -0400
Subject: Sugar and Mugar,
 Cahue and Mahue (Turkish national epithets (1801))
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.131929.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the same book.

Pg. 32:
   "What has he loaded with?" asks the kadi--the Arbab answers, "_with cahue (coffee) and mahue_," _i. e. coffee et cetera_ (changing the first letter into _m_ makes a kind of gibberish word, which signifies _et cetera_) "_sugar and mugar, pots and mots, sacks and macks_," _&c._...

(Is this in OED's revised "m" entry?--ed.)


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sun Jun  9 01:00:45 2002
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 18:00:45 -0700
Subject: dubious usages
In-Reply-To: <3BA8459B.0750C220.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.180045.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Northwest Coast Indians seems to be the commonly used term,
which is a narrow strip from SE Alaska and British Columbia down to
Oregon and maybe Northern California.

Benjamin Barrett

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of James A. Landau

> Also some notes to Barry Popik:  I'm not sure but I think
> the "Potlatch" was a custom of American Indians in the
> Columbia River/Puget Sound area, not Alaska.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  9 01:46:07 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 21:46:07 EDT
Subject: Troubadour, Brie (1739); Nu, Kolbash (1904)
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.214607.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TROUBADOUR, BRIE

THE JEWISH SPY
by Marquis D'Argens
London: D. Browne
1739

Pg. iii:  The Printer's Devil.

Pg. 65:  *_Chelibi_, a young _Turkish_ Nobleman.

Pg. 100:  ...resemble the cheeses of _Brie_, which are not good, till they
are of such an age.
(See other "Brie" posts.  OED first cites "Brie" over 100 years later--ed.)

Pg. 123:  ...they play at Chess, or at Mangela"...
*A _Turkish_ Game, which they play with little Shells.
(Not in the revised OED?--ed.)

Pg. 277:  The _Troubadours_*...
*A sort of Minstrels that sung and play'd at the same time on the Violin.
(OED & M-W have 1741 for "troubadour"--ed.)

-----------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------
NU

RUSSIA AS IT REALLY IS
by Carl Joubert
Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott Company
1905 (copyright 1904)

Pg. 9:  ..._pirrogs_ (meat pies)...
(Several cites on this page.  See prior posts--ed.)

Pg. 29:  Surely he can eat _kapusta_ and black bread without knowing who
discovered America!
(OED?--ed.)

Pg. 53:  In a _traktir_ (tea-shop and restaurant) in Tiflis two mousiks sat
at a table and called for _vodka_.

Pg. 56:  "I have not yet eaten my _kasha_, and I will not let the Holy Mother
call me until I have dined."

Pg. 89:  Now the "shaitel" is a wig, and when a Jewess is married she is
required to cut off her hair and wear a "shaitel."
(OED has 1892, then 1957 for "shaitel"--ed.)

Pg. 92:  "To give the shirt off one's back" has become a common metaphorical
phrase in our own country, but I could not believe that it was a form of
benevolence that was actually practised.

Pg. 94:  "Nu!  Nu!  Why don't you come?"
(OED has 1892, then 1945--ed.)

Pg. 109:  ...the "Shatchen."  He is to be found in every town in Russia, and
his business is to bring together suitable couples for matrimonial purposes.
(OED from 1890--ed.)

Pg. 278:  So he washed down the last mouthful of the _kolbash_, which he was
eating, with a glass of _vodka_ and turned a beaming countenance towards me.
(OED has a very late 1953 for "kielbasa," and "kolbasa" is mentioned
there--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MISC.

   David Shulman said that he spent two-and-a-half hours with Dean Olsher on
Friday (yesterday).  The show will air on WYNC (NPR) at 11 a.m. Sunday
(tomorrow).  It'll be cut to six minutes.
   The "species" cited in a previous post is "fish."
   Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis over Shaq in four.  Nets win NBA championship.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  9 02:22:11 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 22:22:11 EDT
Subject: Beigle (1929; Bagel, in 1870s, in Belarus?)
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.222211.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CHILDHOOD IN EXILE
by Shmarya Levin
New York:  Harcourt, Brace and Company
1929

   Shamarya Levin (1867-1935) writes about his childhood in 1870s Swislowitz,
which is now in Belarus.  OED records "bagel" (1932) and "beigel" (1919), but
not "beigle."  The spelling, the early date of recollection, and the
frequency of use here all make this "beigle" important.


Pg. 14:  ..._karobka_--the Kosher meat tax...

Pg. 15:  ..._cheder_ (elementary Hebrew school)...
(OED has "cheder" from 1880--ed.)

Pg. 36:  ...the _goy_, the gentile.

Pg. 46:  ...he was a Luftmensch, living from hand to mouth...

Pg. 68:  There they received a glass of whisky, and a _beigle_--a sort of
doughnut, to go down with it.  "Go down with it" is a euphemism.  Some of the
workers used to settle quietly down to work, and pack away fifteen and twenty
_beigles_.  But the term "appetizer" was not an exact one in Swislowitz.

Pg. 69:  ...and dried _tarane_, a small flat fish which abounded in the
rivers.

Pg. 110:  They brought their food along with them, and most of the time it
consisted of a piece of unbuttered bread, a tail of salt herring, and a
_beigle_--a sort of doughnut--for dessert.  If the bread was buttered, or
smeared with chicken fat, the herring or the doughnut was "off."

Pg. 111:  Of dairy food they knew only sour milk and an occasional piece of
cheese.

Pg. 119:  Between afternoon and evening prayer they used to go down to the
river and watch the ice-floes.  The early ice-floes looked soft, vague.  The
peasants used to call them "lard-floes," and the Jews, to avoid mention of
swine-meat, called them "chicken-fat" floes.

Pg. 130:  He was kept comfortably warm, and they fed him bread and "white
herring."
   "White herring!"  There is no such thing!  Like a lightning flash the
truth broke on the assembled congregants.  The child had been fed bacon!

Pg. 139:  There after comes the crown of the meal, the _kugel_, the Sabbath
pudding, majestic, satisfying, somniferous.

Pg. 142:  It was a difficult and thankless profession, but Cherneh could not
raise the price for fear of competition on the part of the bakers of
_beigle_, or doughnuts.  It was generally conceded that though the pancake
was heavier and more satisfying, the _beigle_ was daintier and sweeter: it
was therefore impossible to give either of them the advantage of price.  And
Cherneh used to complain bitterly: "Would to God I had begun with beigle
instead of pancakes.  But too late now.  I am known as Cherneh the pancake
maker, and I daren't experiment."

Pg. 151:  The gorgeous three-cornered little cakes, stuffed with nuts and
poppy seed, which are called Haman's ears, (Pg. 152--ed.) had been prepared
in vast numbers for us.
(OED has 1846 for "Haman's fritters," then 1949 for "Haman's ears"--ed.)

Pg. 156:  ...the Sabbath _goy_ (the gentile hired to make fire on the Sabbath
and perform other duties forbidden us on that day)...

Pg. 171:  ...Afikomen (a specially dedicated Matzoh)...
(OED has 1891 for "afikomen"--ed.)

Pg. 177:  The girls played at Pots and Pans.  Among the boys the favourite
game was Odds and Evens.  All you had to do was guess whether your opponent
held an odd or an even number of nuts in his hand.

Pg. 236:
My King can swim
And yours will sink;
My king is a hero
And yours is a --.
(Fink?  OED has that from 1903.  This was said in the 1870s, in Russia, in
English??  One prior verse is here--ed.)

Pg. 238:  ..."Doctor" Schwartz, a _feldsher_ or half-trained village
doctor...

Pg. 261:  In his house it is customary to hand out on Friday some of the
blintzes (small hot cheese pies) which are left to warm in the oven for the
Sabbath meal.  (Pg. 262--ed.)  Hot _blintzes_ in sour cream.  And now
imagine, gentlemen, I had to pick up one of these luscious _blintzes_, I roll
it over and over in thick cream, and I put it in my mouth.  To swallow such a
blintze is not one of the most painful sensations in life. ...
(OED has 1903 for "blintze."  Again, the date referred to is the 1870s--ed.)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun  9 02:47:14 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 22:47:14 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Bagel"
In-Reply-To: <11f.11d01127.2a3415d3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.224714.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 8 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> OED records "bagel" (1932) and "beigel" (1919)

Here's an earlier citation for "bagel":

1930 _N.Y. Times_ 14 Sept. 49  NEW INCORPORATIONS ... Hollywood Bagel
Baking Co., Newark, general bakery - Herman B. J. Weckstein, Newark.


Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  9 05:32:58 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 01:32:58 EDT
Subject: Rayah, Mocha & Yemen Coffee (1801)
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.013258.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A SURVEY OF THE TURKISH EMPIRE
by W. Efon
Third edition
London: T Cadell
1801

   A bit more from this book...The Detroit Red Wings just defeated the
Carolina Hurricanes in the third overtime.  Oh, there's gotta be another
sports event on tv somewhere.

Pg. 97:  Every _raya_ (that is, every subject who is not of the Mahomedian
religion)...
(OED has 1813 for "rayah"--ed.)

Pg. 230:  ...Yemen coffee...
Pg. 231:  ...Mocha coffee...
(OED has 1773 for "Mocco," and the next cite for "Mocha coffee" is 1819--ed.)


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Sun Jun  9 10:13:31 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 06:13:31 -0400
Subject: "strong like bull"
In-Reply-To: <NJEFLDNDEIDMAKCHIMJGGEBHCFAA.rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.061331.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Said with a fake Russian accent, the bull pronounced booool.

All of a sudden, younger kids are saying this here.  Seems like it's a
retread from a decade earlier.  Surely from a movie or TV program, perhaps
Saturday Night Live.  Any idea of the origins?

rhk


From pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Sun Jun  9 13:08:38 2002
From: pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Peter Farruggio)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 06:08:38 -0700
Subject: "strong like bull"
In-Reply-To: <NJEFLDNDEIDMAKCHIMJGCEECCFAA.rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.060838.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's from the Rockie and Bullwinkle cartoon show of the 1960s.  There was a
regular segment each week about the Russian spies Boris and Natasha, and
Boris would occasionally comment about some peasant girl who was "beeeg and
strong like booool"  The show was written for adults and was popular with
boomer college students, the same crowd that read MAD magazine in the 1950s
for its anti-Establishment sarcasm and satire.  I started to hear the
phrase "big and strong..." in popular discourse in the late 1960s or early
1970s, after the show was off the air, but can't remember who revived it
from the original source.

Pete Farruggio




At 03:13 AM 6/9/02, Rick Kennerly wrote:

>Said with a fake Russian accent, the bull pronounced booool.
>
>All of a sudden, younger kids are saying this here.  Seems like it's a
>retread from a decade earlier.  Surely from a movie or TV program, perhaps
>Saturday Night Live.  Any idea of the origins?
>
>rhk
>
>
>---
>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sun Jun  9 13:16:14 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 09:16:14 -0400
Subject: "strong like bull"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020609055718.02a9ca90@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.091614.0400.>

We discussed this about a year ago. The conversation in the archives may be
enlightening.

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S2=ads-l&q=strong+like+bull&s=&f
=&a=&b=


--

Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
http://www.worldnewyork.org/
646 296 2260


From pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Sun Jun  9 13:30:45 2002
From: pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Peter Farruggio)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 06:30:45 -0700
Subject: "strong like bull"
In-Reply-To: <B928CD5E.47C3%gbarrett@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.063045.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks.  Just checked the archives and remembered the Uncle Tonoose
connection from the Danny Thomas Show (1950s).  So it looks like the Rocky
and Bullwinkle writers (1960s) took it from there and gave it to Boris
Badenov.  Any prior references?  How about post-60s?




At 06:16 AM 6/9/02, Grant Barrett wrote:

>We discussed this about a year ago. The conversation in the archives may be
>enlightening.
>
>http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S2=ads-l&q=strong+like+bull&s=&f
>=&a=&b=
>
>
>--
>
>Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
>gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
>http://www.worldnewyork.org/
>646 296 2260
>
>
>---
>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/02
-------------- next part --------------

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/02

From dave at WILTON.NET  Sun Jun  9 16:15:20 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 09:15:20 -0700
Subject: "strong like bull"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020609062549.02a86e00@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.091520.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

_The Adventures of Rocky and Bullwinkle_ was made into a feature movie in
2000. Perhaps the line was repeated in that?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Peter Farruggio
> Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 6:31 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "strong like bull"
>
>
> Thanks.  Just checked the archives and remembered the Uncle Tonoose
> connection from the Danny Thomas Show (1950s).  So it looks
> like the Rocky
> and Bullwinkle writers (1960s) took it from there and gave it to Boris
> Badenov.  Any prior references?  How about post-60s?


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Jun  9 19:37:20 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 15:37:20 -0400
Subject: Boo-Boo
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.153720.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Safire's On Language column today discusses "boo-boo," a blunder or egregious error, of uncertain derivation, first OED cite 1954.  Is there any connection to the presumably unflattering nickname, most familiar as the name of Yogi Bear's sidekick?  Boo-Boo Bear didn't come along until 1958, but the nickname is older; a 1938 court case has a party named 'Boo Boo' Hoff.  Murray Hill Restaurant v. Thirteen Twenty One Locust, 98 F.2d 578 (3d Cir. 1938).

John Baker


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun  9 19:46:10 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 15:46:10 -0400
Subject: Sidelight on "Big Apple"
In-Reply-To: <D9BA04198D5C154F901F45D28E4866B5012D41A2@phex01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.154610.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The earliest known usage of "Big Apple" meaning New York City is dated
1909 (the New York Historical Society/Cohen discovery, supported by
Safire), or 1924 (the Popik discovery, supported by Shapiro), or 1928 (the
Shapiro discovery, supported by Cohen).

The following 1897 citation that I have discovered, although clearly not
an example of "Big Apple" meaning New York City, might be considered to
join the 1909 citation as a coincidental foreshadowing of the term:

1897 _N.Y. Times_ 10 Oct. SM10  An entertaining little book entitled "Some
Facts About the New York Market," has been issued by the Merchants'
Association, and it is exciting considerable comment in other cities.  Its
unique feature is the illustration by means of graded pictures, of the
relative size of New York's industries, and the industries of six or eight
of the large cities of this country. ... In the fruit and nut trade New
York takes precedence with a big apple, while the second city has only a
cherry.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Sun Jun  9 20:50:19 2002
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 16:50:19 -0400
Subject: Sidelight on "Big Apple"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0206091540050.27638-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu >
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.165019.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Neat!  But what was the "second city" at the time, and what's the
connection with cherries?

At 03:46 PM 6/9/02 -0400, you wrote:
>The earliest known usage of "Big Apple" meaning New York City is dated
>1909 (the New York Historical Society/Cohen discovery, supported by
>Safire), or 1924 (the Popik discovery, supported by Shapiro), or 1928 (the
>Shapiro discovery, supported by Cohen).
>
>The following 1897 citation that I have discovered, although clearly not
>an example of "Big Apple" meaning New York City, might be considered to
>join the 1909 citation as a coincidental foreshadowing of the term:
>
>1897 _N.Y. Times_ 10 Oct. SM10  An entertaining little book entitled "Some
>Facts About the New York Market," has been issued by the Merchants'
>Association, and it is exciting considerable comment in other cities.  Its
>unique feature is the illustration by means of graded pictures, of the
>relative size of New York's industries, and the industries of six or eight
>of the large cities of this country. ... In the fruit and nut trade New
>York takes precedence with a big apple, while the second city has only a
>cherry.
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
>Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
>Yale Law School                             forthcoming
>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  9 23:18:54 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 19:18:54 -0400
Subject: Turkish Beigel (Bella Chagall, 1940s); 1897 NYT "Big Apple"
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.191854.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

1897 "BIG APPLE" IN NEW YORK TIMES

   When I first started my search, I thoroughly looked through the New York Times Index, and I read every single "apple" subject article.  Over thirty years.  One story was titled "BIG APPLE CROP."  However, as the quality and the frequency of the hits are examined (as we gain full text to various newspapers), it's clear that the pre-1920 citations are isolated.  They're not even re-used by the same sources (NY Times, Edward S. Martin).  The African-American stablehand's claim, and John J. Fitz Gerald's popularization, appear to be strengthened.

---------------------------------------------------------------
TURKISH BEIGEL

BURNING LIGHTS
by Bella Chagall
translated by Norbert Guterman
Schocken Books, New York
1946

   Bella Chagall was married to the artist Marc Chagall.  She was born in Vitebsk, Russia, in 1895, and she died in Cranberry Lake, NY, in 1944.  She wrote in Yiddish.

Pg. 40:  For breakfast, we find on the wide window ledges--in addition to the flat cakes, rolls, and biscuits--a pile of stuffed tsybulnikes.  On Friday no dinner is cooked.  Instead of hot food, everyone gets a tsybulnik pressed into his hand.  Big, thickly filled with fried onions, just as an oven is filled with red coals, the tsybulnik can barely be held in one's hand.  The first bite pastes one's mouth shut, and the dough sticks in one's gullet until it is washed down with a glass of cold milk.

Pg. 52:  "Ah, you're an uncouth fellow, Israel!  Better help me to pull out my sleeve, the lining has suddenly got twisted up like a Turkish beigel."
(TURKISH bagel?--ed.)

Pg. 108:  There are slices of cake, tarts, sponge cake with honey, platters of pickled herring, chopped liver, eggs in goose fat, calf's-foot jelly, fried udders.

Pg. 129:  "She has eaten too many latkes!"

Pg. 169:  "You dumb cluck, you believe everything!"
("Dumb cluck" is used more than once in the book--ed.)

Pg. 175:  "Oi, woe is me, and my Haman-tashen are still in (Pg. 176--ed.) the oven!"

Pg. 242:  Then the knedlach come; they are easily swallowed with the yellow soup.

Pg. 256:  "And my chopped liver!" another waiter shouts.

(A Glossary is on pages 265-268, but it's nothing special--ed.)

Pg. 267:
Shikse (Y)  a gentile maid
Shkutsim (Y)  rascals


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 10 01:35:23 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 21:35:23 EDT
Subject: potlatch
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.213523.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Erna Gunther, translator _The Tlingit Indians_  Seattle: University of
Washington Press, 1956.  This is a translation of Aurel Krause _Der
Tlinkit-Indianer_ Jena: 1885.  The English translation appeared as Monograph
26 of the American Ethnological Society.

There are several descriptions of massive Tlingit gift-giving, particularly
in chapter 8's discussion of cremation customs.  "The cremation was followed
by a large potlach (the distribution of gifts).  The costs of the cremation
ran to about fifty to seventy dollars.  At the potlatch wollen blankets to a
value of five hudnred dollars were torn and distrubted by relatives."  This
cremation is stated to be "described in a disptach to the New York Herald of
April 16, 1881".

Also chapter 9 reads "the relatives of the deceased slaughter one or two
slaves to serve the deceased in the next world, these, however, not being
taken not from the slaves of the deceased, but from their own."  Footnote 4
to chapter 9 adds "According to Veniaminof [1840], generally only slaves who
were sick and weak were designated for sacrifice.  If they managed to escape,
and some chiefs made it possible for them, they could return quietly after
the ceremony without being punished for their flight".

When I was in Alaska in 1974, one of my tour guides said that after the
American takeover of Alaska, the Tlingits held "the potlatch to end all
potlatches" at which all Tlingit slaves were freed.  Apparently in honor of
this, a Tlingit carved a totem pole in the shape of Abraham Lincoln (I saw a
photo of this totem pole.)

Linguistic note:  "totem pole" appears to be a misnomer, having nothing to do
with totems.  "Totem" is an Algonquin word referring to the sacred animal
associated with each clan etc., or perhaps it would be better to say the
sacred animal each clan was associated with.  The point is, there is a
mystical relationship of some sort between the users of a totem and the
animal that serves as the totem.

Apparently people misinterpreted totem poles as depicting totems.  They do
not.  They are simply the Pacific Northwest native equivalent of billboards,
identiying the owner of the pole, boasting, or telling a story.  OED gives
1891 for "totem post" and 1987 for "totem pole", but 1776 for English usage
of Algonquin "totem", with figurative usage of "totem"---In England, not the
New World---in 1890 and 1893.

                             - Jim Landau

PS to Barry Popik: when I was at Mount Denali, a Park Ranger showed us what
the natives fed their sled dogs, namely whole smoked salmons.  They are very
icky-looking things.  The Ranger held one up and asked if anyone wanted to
taste it.  Everybody except me proceeded to look disgusted at the idea.  I
however said, "Sure, if you give me a bagel to go with it."  Spoiled the
Ranger's entire day.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 10 06:07:29 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 02:07:29 EDT
Subject: Bat Mitzvah (1921, 1949); Kosher (1620); Mellah
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.020729.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BAT MITZVAH

   OED has 1950.  Perhaps the online New York Times has something.
   A Google search shows that the first Bat Mitzvah was of Judith Kaplan,
daughter of Reconstructionist leader Mordechai Kaplan, in 1921.  Judith
Kaplan Eisenstein died in 1995.
   This is from JEWISH SOCIAL STUDIES, vol. 11, no. 2, April 1949, pg. 161:

   Girls should be included for the _Bat-Mitzvah_, which is practiced in an
increasing number of congregations.

(For "Bar-Mitzvah," see Joseph Addison's 1600s work on the EEBO
database--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
KOSHER

_kosher._  A Yiddish term for food prepared according to strict Jewish
dietary laws.  The word is taken from the Hebrew _kasher_, "proper," and has
taken on colloquial meanings in America to mean "correct" or "honest" or
"acceptable."
--John Mariani, ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK (1999)

   Merriam Webster says that "kosher" is a "Yiddish" term.  "Kosher" is dated
to 1851.  "Yiddish" is dated to 1886.  Maybe it just took a long while to
name the language?
   I noticed an article titled "Marketing of Kosher Meat" in JEWISH SOCIAL
STUDIES, vol. 23, no. 2, April 1961.  It cites:  Finkelstein, Harry, "The
Kosher Meat Industry," unpublished Master's thesis, the College of Business
Administration, Boston University, 1933.
   This is from JEWISH SOCIAL STUDIES, vol. 16, no. 4, October 1954, pg. 345:

   The Jewish butchers of Prague were the first trade group to prganize a
guild of their own.  The axact year of its founding is unknown, but the
guild's key bears the date 1620.  Engraved on the key are the names of the
two guild wardens, Solomon Wilhartitz and Elias Nefele, and of thirteen guild
members.  At the base of the key is the representation of a lion rampant, the
device of the city of Prague, holding between its forepaws a butcher's axe
inscribed with the Hebrew word _kosher_.*

*Spiegel, Kathe, "Die Prager Juden zur Zeit des dressigjahrigen Kreiges," in
_Die Juden in Prag_ (Prague 1927) p. 130, 180.

(HEBREW word "kosher"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MELLAH

JEWISH SOCIETY IN FEZ
1450-1700
STUDIES IN COMMUNAL AND ECONOMIC LIFE
by Jane S. Gerber
Leiden: E. J. Brill
1980

Pg. 19:  The new Jewish quarter, called the _Mellah_ due to the salty site on
which it was located, became the prototype of the Moroccan ghetto.  The very
name was soon applied, along with Juderia or Juiverie, to all the Jewish
ghettos of Morocco.*

*On the term _Mellah_, cf. Gaudefroy de Mombynes, "Mellah," _Journal
Asiatique_, (I, 1914), 651-8.

Pg. 182:  Between such incidents we find numerous references to Jews
cultivating vineyards selling _mahia_ (a Moroccan liquor made from honey)...
("Mahia" is not in the revised OED?--ed.)

("MAROCAIN _MELLAH_" by "M. GAUDEFROY-DEMOMBYNES" doesn't have a single
English-language citation.  The Jews moved into the Fez quarter in 1464-1465.
 However, Leon l'Africain (1516) "ignore le mot _mellah_."  I didn't see an
exact date  --ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
MISC.

   David Shulman said he was interviewed by Dean Olsher.  I said it was THE
NEXT BIG THING and not ALL THINGS CONSIDERED, but he wasn't sure on the name
of the show.  I said that it was unlikely that 2 1/2 hours of a Friday
interview would be reduced to six minutes for an 11 a.m. Sunday show, but he
said it would be on that Sunday.
   It didn't air today.  I wasted one hour of my life listening to a "witty"
song about a prospective egg donor.   And a guess-the-sound contest.  And
pledge drive info.  I called Shulman, and he said he'll call the producer of
the show on Monday.

   Nets in seven.  Their brilliant strategy is to make the Lakers
overconfident by losing the first three games.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 10 07:24:56 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 03:24:56 EDT
Subject: Brauer's "Jews of Kurdistan" glossary & Maza
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.032456.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE JEWS OF KURDISTAN
by Erich Brauer
completed and edited by Raphael Patai
Wayne State University Press, Detroit
1993

   This is a great book.
   Erich Brauer (1895-1942) didn't finish it, but Patai did (50 years ago).
The English version was long overdue.  There is an extensive food chapter and
a large glossary on pages 408-429.  I'll check out Brauer's book on the Jews
of Yemen for a possible "falafel" and for "hilbeh." (See OXFORD COMPANION TO
FOOD.  "Hilbeh" is not in OED.)

Pg. 101:
_Maza_
   A festive meal among the Kurdish Jews never begins with the meal itself.
It is always preceded by a social hour in which there is dancing (Pg.
102--ed.) and singing and the guests are regaled with arrack and _maza_.*
_Maza_ consists of cold fish, cold chicken or _qoqwane_, partridge, roasted
or boiled meat, mushrooms (A. _kwarke_ or else _kame_, a sort of fungi not
known in Amadiya), fruits and nuts.

Pg. 378:
*Maclean, _Grammar_, p. 165: _maza_ (Pers. and Turk.), an appetizer, a whet
before dinner.  On _maza_ at Turkish drinking bouts, see Arminius Vambery,
_Sittenbilder aus dem Morgenlande_, Berlin, 1876, p. 78.

(The following are  selected "m" glossary items--ed.)

madira, rice-buttermilk dish
magila, copper kettle
mankheda, Torah pointer
masbah, cap worn by Christians
masloqa, fat meat soup
mast, masta, leben, curdled milk
maza, mixed diswh of food
megala, megilla, Purim
mijidi, Turkish money unit
mishmara, weekly portion of the Torah


From Peter.Lucko at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE  Mon Jun 10 07:28:05 2002
From: Peter.Lucko at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE (Prof. Peter Lucko)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:28:05 +0200
Subject: evolving subjunctive
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.092805.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>  However, the contingent sentences ("if
> he doesn't stop, he's out") seems fairly common in sportscasterese.

This seems to be a phenomenon that surpasses language boundaries: I have often wondered why german sportscasters shun the hypothetical subjunctive (Konjunktiv in German) of the "missed chance" type. They invariably say "Die Mannschaft musste noch ein Tor schiessen, statt nur das Resultat zu sichern" instead of "haette noch ein Tor schiessen muessen". I have come to accept it as a marker of a specific functional style, particularly now that I learn it is the same in English.
P.L.
_____________________
Prof. Dr. Peter Lucko
Humboldt-Universit?t zu Berlin
Institut f?r Anglistik und Amerikanistik
Unter den Linden 6
10099 Berlin, Germany


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Mon Jun 10 19:05:32 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:05:32 +0100
Subject: Blue cent
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.200532.0100.>

My dictionaries of slang have nothing to say about "blue cent",
meaning an insignificant amount. Can anyone help with an origin
and/or likely age?

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Mon Jun 10 18:11:00 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 11:11:00 -0700
Subject: perception of gender in names
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.111100.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>> adrian.pable at ENS.UNIBE.CH 05/27/02 03:28AM >>>
I always find it difficult as a German speaker to tell whether
certain English names are female or male, e.g. Laurie and Lyle

Lyle is male and Laurie looks female to me.  However, I have dealt with people from other English-speaking countries named Laurie or Lawrie (UK and South Africa, respectively) who are males.  I believe in both cases, it's short for Lawrence.  But it still sounds very odd to me.
On the other hand, my English-speaking high school students have the same problem that you have--they cannot tell if a name is male or female in many cases. Uwe, Uli, Heike, and Kai are a few that are very problematic.  For some reason, Jochen, Joachim, Jo"rg, Ju"rgen, and Jens pose little or even no problem, most students recognising them as male names.  Jan is usually a female name here, so is a problem.

Fritz Juengling
look
female to me. How do speakers of a language establish whether a name
is only used for girls or boys or both? e.g. Faith and April are only
female, but in the 16th centuries names such as Faith, Experience,
Unity, Hope were not gender-bound. Why is it that only a girl may be
called Unity nowadays (because we can see the link with Latin unitas,
female?)

Adrian Pabl?, University of Berne

>A question has come over the transom from a UK correspondent. Advice,
>anyone?
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 00:56:20 +0100
>
>Via the letters page of the Guardian newspaper, and then by email, I have
>contacted some people doing research into the perception of gender in names,
>and I was wondering if Dr. Whom (or anyone else) knew of any work already
>done in that area.


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Mon Jun 10 19:33:20 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 15:33:20 -0400
Subject: perception of gender in names
In-Reply-To: <sd048961.002@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.153320.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The perception of gender in names differs between the UK and USA, too.  At
academic meetings we are often put up in university dorms.  These dorms are
coed for the students but when "adults" have to live in them the powers
that be generally put the men in one block and the women in another so they
won't have to share bathrooms (adults being of a delicate and sensitive
nature).  So at one meeting in the USA my colleague named Robin, from
London, found himself all by himself in one block with three showers and
several toilets all for himself while all the other attendees (who were all
male) were in another one.

--Charles Wells

>>>> adrian.pable at ENS.UNIBE.CH 05/27/02 03:28AM >>>
>I always find it difficult as a German speaker to tell whether
>certain English names are female or male, e.g. Laurie and Lyle
>
>Lyle is male and Laurie looks female to me.  However, I have dealt with
>people from other English-speaking countries named Laurie or Lawrie (UK and
>South Africa, respectively) who are males.  I believe in both cases, it's
>short for Lawrence.  But it still sounds very odd to me.
>On the other hand, my English-speaking high school students have the same
>problem that you have--they cannot tell if a name is male or female in many
>cases. Uwe, Uli, Heike, and Kai are a few that are very problematic.  For
>some reason, Jochen, Joachim, Jo"rg, Ju"rgen, and Jens pose little or even
>no problem, most students recognising them as male names.  Jan is usually a
>female name here, so is a problem.
>
>Fritz Juengling
>look
>female to me. How do speakers of a language establish whether a name
>is only used for girls or boys or both? e.g. Faith and April are only
>female, but in the 16th centuries names such as Faith, Experience,
>Unity, Hope were not gender-bound. Why is it that only a girl may be
>called Unity nowadays (because we can see the link with Latin unitas,
>female?)
>
>Adrian Pabl?, University of Berne
>
>>A question has come over the transom from a UK correspondent. Advice,
>>anyone?
>>
>>-- Mark A. Mandel
>>
>>
>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 00:56:20 +0100
>>
>>Via the letters page of the Guardian newspaper, and then by email, I have
>>contacted some people doing research into the perception of gender in names,
>>and I was wondering if Dr. Whom (or anyone else) knew of any work already
>>done in that area.



Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 10 19:47:36 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 15:47:36 -0400
Subject: perception of gender in names
In-Reply-To: <sd048961.002@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.154736.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:11 AM -0700 6/10/02, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
>  >>> adrian.pable at ENS.UNIBE.CH 05/27/02 03:28AM >>>
>I always find it difficult as a German speaker to tell whether
>certain English names are female or male, e.g. Laurie and Lyle
>
>Lyle is male and Laurie looks female to me.  However, I have dealt
>with people from other English-speaking countries named Laurie or
>Lawrie (UK and South Africa, respectively) who are males.  I believe
>in both cases, it's short for Lawrence.  But it still sounds very
>odd to me.

I grew up as Laurie (although to survive junior high school I
converted to Larry) and it was short for Laurence.  My mother
believed that Laurence --> Laurie while Lawrence --> Larry, but it
doesn't really work that way most of the time.  I was actually named
for the character Laurie in _Little Women_, whose full name was
Theodore Laurence.  Most of the male Lauries around anymore are from
commonwealth lands--Scotland, maybe England, Canada, and as you say
South Africa, as well as the antipodes, as in our (current?
erstwhile?) listmate, Laurie Bauer from New Zealand.

Larry, n? Laurie


From elaine at CHAOS.WUSTL.EDU  Mon Jun 10 19:47:23 2002
From: elaine at CHAOS.WUSTL.EDU (Elaine -HFB- Ashton)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:47:23 -0500
Subject: perception of gender in names
In-Reply-To: <sd048961.002@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.144723.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FRITZ JUENGLING [juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US] quoth:
*>>>> adrian.pable at ENS.UNIBE.CH 05/27/02 03:28AM >>>
*>I always find it difficult as a German speaker to tell whether
*>certain English names are female or male, e.g. Laurie and Lyle

I've found Finnish names to be interesting especially since the language
itself doesn't have a grammatical gender but does have decidedly
male and female names. Since the language is so different the divination
of gender by name is a challenge in some cases since you cannot rely on
the endings to give you a clue. Lauri is a male name in Finland but in the
US, it could be used on either gender since there are no real rules for
naming as if there were such rules, we probably would know immediately
which gender 'Moon Unit" might be :) I suspect that naming and gender are
the domain of the culture and society the language lives in rather than
a function of the language itself.

http://www.sci.fi/%7ekajun/finns/alpha.htm
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/jukka.html

e.


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Mon Jun 10 20:01:53 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:01:53 -0700
Subject: perception of gender in names
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.130153.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurie Bauer is originally from the Uk, I believe. Laurie, are you out there?

In the US, Robin can go either way, as can Toni, Jerry, Lynn, and a host of others. I have a female colleague whose name is Michael.  My brother-in-law's name is Kerry, which sounds to me like a female name.  Of course, many of the names that can go either way have different spellings, depending on whether males or females have them.
Fritz

>>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU 06/10/02 12:47PM >>>
At 11:11 AM -0700 6/10/02, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
>  >>> adrian.pable at ENS.UNIBE.CH 05/27/02 03:28AM >>>
>I always find it difficult as a German speaker to tell whether
>certain English names are female or male, e.g. Laurie and Lyle
>
>Lyle is male and Laurie looks female to me.  However, I have dealt
>with people from other English-speaking countries named Laurie or
>Lawrie (UK and South Africa, respectively) who are males.  I believe
>in both cases, it's short for Lawrence.  But it still sounds very
>odd to me.

I grew up as Laurie (although to survive junior high school I
converted to Larry) and it was short for Laurence.  My mother
believed that Laurence --> Laurie while Lawrence --> Larry, but it
doesn't really work that way most of the time.  I was actually named
for the character Laurie in _Little Women_, whose full name was
Theodore Laurence.  Most of the male Lauries around anymore are from
commonwealth lands--Scotland, maybe England, Canada, and as you say
South Africa, as well as the antipodes, as in our (current?
erstwhile?) listmate, Laurie Bauer from New Zealand.

Larry, nT Laurie


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Jun 10 20:29:27 2002
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:29:27 -0400
Subject: perception of gender in names
In-Reply-To: <p0432040cb92ab13f8f0d@[130.132.231.219]>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.162927.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I always preferred Jo's name for Laurie--good ol' down-to-earth Teddy.  (No
offense, Larry!)

At 03:47 PM 6/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>At 11:11 AM -0700 6/10/02, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
>>  >>> adrian.pable at ENS.UNIBE.CH 05/27/02 03:28AM >>>
>>I always find it difficult as a German speaker to tell whether
>>certain English names are female or male, e.g. Laurie and Lyle
>>
>>Lyle is male and Laurie looks female to me.  However, I have dealt
>>with people from other English-speaking countries named Laurie or
>>Lawrie (UK and South Africa, respectively) who are males.  I believe
>>in both cases, it's short for Lawrence.  But it still sounds very
>>odd to me.
>
>I grew up as Laurie (although to survive junior high school I
>converted to Larry) and it was short for Laurence.  My mother
>believed that Laurence --> Laurie while Lawrence --> Larry, but it
>doesn't really work that way most of the time.  I was actually named
>for the character Laurie in _Little Women_, whose full name was
>Theodore Laurence.  Most of the male Lauries around anymore are from
>commonwealth lands--Scotland, maybe England, Canada, and as you say
>South Africa, as well as the antipodes, as in our (current?
>erstwhile?) listmate, Laurie Bauer from New Zealand.
>
>Larry, n? Laurie


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 10 20:27:02 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:27:02 -0400
Subject: perception of gender in names
In-Reply-To: <sd04a354.059@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.162702.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:01 PM -0700 6/10/02, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
>Laurie Bauer is originally from the Uk, I believe. Laurie, are you out there?
>
>In the US, Robin can go either way, as can Toni, Jerry, Lynn, and a
>host of others. I have a female colleague whose name is Michael.  My
>brother-in-law's name is Kerry, which sounds to me like a female
>name.  Of course, many of the names that can go either way have
>different spellings, depending on whether males or females have them.
>Fritz

Sometimes the orthography is sex-specific even when the names
themselves (as pronounced) are epicene.  To be sure, there are names
like Lynn, Kerry, Robin, and even on occasion Michael (as well as
Chris, Lee, Tracy, Stacy, et al.) that can be and are used for both
males and females with the same spelling.  But generally in the US we
distinguish Tony for males vs. Toni for females, Jerry/Gerry for
males vs. Jeri/Ger(r)i for females, and so on.  Typically the -i
ending is unambiguously female (Teri or Terri) while the -y ending
may be male or may remain undeterdetermined for gender (Terry).  And
sometimes the female version may be -ie (Bobbie or Bobbi, female vs.
Bobby, male).

larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 11 01:29:07 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:29:07 EDT
Subject: Ballerina, Escabeche, Pochero, Arroz a la Valencia (1770)
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.212907.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A JOURNEY FROM LONDON TO GENOA, THROUGH ENGLAND, PORTUGAL, SPAIN AND FRANCE
by Joseph Baetti
The Third Edition
In Four Volumes
London: T. Davies
1770

   The items here are dated 1760.  I have not checked the dates of the first
two editions. OED cites this as 1770, and uses it for 17 citations and one
antedate (gutturality).  Amazing.
   "Escabeche" has one hit in OED, in an entry for "caveach" that has a
single 1822 citation. There are over 11,000 Google "escabeche" hits.  THE
OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD mentions that "caveach" is used in 17th- and
18th-century English cookery books, and it's a word "which could be either a
noun or a verb. ... Indeed escabeche can be found, in past centuries and now,
lurking under other names in various countries and contexts."  "Escabeyg" is
in a 14th-century Catalan treatise.  A Philippines recipe for "escabeche" is
given.
   This should be fixed immediately..Merriam-Webster has no "escabeche"
entry.


VOLUME ONE
Pg. 86:  ...I breakfast _Anglice_ upon tea and toast, or bread and butter...

Pg. 91:  ...on my arrival in _Portingal_ (as the sailors say) I am to pay the
captain twenty three thousand reis.

Pg. 215:  ...a pigeon-pye, a roasted turkey, and a Barbary-tongue, together
with half a dozen bottles of the best wine.

Pg. 227:  Being a meagre day we had an ample dish of salt-fish most favourily
dress'd after the manner of the country with garlick and _pimenta_, a large
sallad, and Dutch cheese with pears, apples, grapes, and figs, ten times more
than we could eat, good bread, and excellent wine.

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 30:  The _Trescone_ of the Tuscans, the _Furlana_ of the Venetians, the
_Corrente_ of the Monserrines, and the _Minuet_ or the _Amiable_ of the
French, are flat performances in comparison of that gallant one which I saw
executed before the balcony by that young man and a boy dressed in woman's
cloaths.  But dances cannot be described by words, nor can I convey to you
any idea of the _Fandango_, but by telling you that every limb was in such a
motion as might be called with propriety _a regular and harmonious convulsion
of the whole body_.

Pg. 34:  ...the female dancers of France go now to Italy, Germany, and
England to enamour _Signors_, _Minheers_, and _Mylords_.

Pg. 45:  Lisbon-hams are in high reputation, and it has long (Pg. 46--ed.)
been decided by connoisseurs in epicureism that they are still superiour to
those of _Bayona_ and _Westphalia_.

Pg. 47:  I must repeat it, that I have seen various dances from _Parenzo_ in
Istria to _Deily_ in England, (Pg. 48--ed.) but none of them is comparable to
what I saw here to-night. (...)
   Both the _Fandango_ and the _Seguedilla_ are danced either at the sound of
the guittar alone, or the guittar accompanied by the voice...

Pg. 51:  ...Fidalgoe's_ and _Cavallero's_ invited them to drink the health of
the _amables Baylarinas_ (_amiable she-dancers_) which they all did with the
noblest freedom and alacrity...
(OED has 1792 for "ballerina"--ed.)

Pg. 54:  ...the _Posada_ (the _Inn_)...

Pg. 58:  They were accordingly to fetch their _mantillas_; that is the _white
veils_ with which they cover their heads and the upper part of their bodies.

Pg. 85:  As I was loitering before that _Meson_ waiting for supper, a parcel
of poor little girls came to look at the _Estrangero_.
(See past posts for "Meson--ed.)

Pg. 144:  ...made my _Siesta_; that is, I slept an hour, because the weather
was insupportably hot.

Pg. 148:  They don't like much garlick, onions, _pimenton_ (Spanish pepper)
_garvanzos_ (chick-peas) or _abadejo_ (salt-fish), so that I accustomed
myself to eat _salte befe_ with them, and could _dranke der bere_, which is
_un bino hecho de agua_; "_a wine made with water_."

Pg. 148:  _Gavacho_ is an injurious appellation bestowed on the French by the
Spanish vulgar.  I know of no satisfactory etymology of this word.  The
Piedmontese call the Savoyards (and often the French) Gavass; and Gavass
means Derby-neck, or a man that has a Debry-neck.

Pg. 151:  We saw a _Quinta_; that is, a country-house...

Pg. 157:  ...you shall certainly have it _a manana_, "_to-morrow_."
(The revised OED has 1845 for "manana"--ed.)

Pg. 178:  ...Seguedillas_ or _Coplas_...
(Fandango, Seguedilla, and Copla are on many pages--ed.)

Pg. 200:  A rite used in this temple, which is called _Mozarob_ or
_Mozarabick_, originally instituted by a bishop of Seville called St.
Isidore...
(OED has 1788 for "Mozarab"--ed.)

Pg. 263:  At the estallages and posadas you will find in general no other
victuals, but a mess of _garavanzos_ and _judias_ (_dry chick-pease_ and
_French beans_) boiled in oil and water, with a strong dose of pepper, and a
dish of _bacallao_ and _sardinas_ (_stock-fish_ and _pilchards_) seasoned
likewise with pepper and oil.
("Gazpacho" is never used in this work, but it obviously was served--ed.)

Pg. 291:  ...drank a dish of coffee, and upon that a dram of _maraschino_...
(The revised OED has 1791-3 for "maraschino"--ed.)

Pg. 296:  A large Perigord-pasty un the middle, a couple of roasted Turkeys
on the sides of the pasty, with ham, fowls, game, sausages, sallads,
_caparrones_ (a kind of capers as big as filberts), _zebrero_ (a kind of
cheese from the kingdom of Galicia) &c. &c.

Pg. 298:  Several card-tables were placed in the room, and we played at
_Manillia_, a fashionable game here, not unlike _Quadrille_.

Pg. 299:
   A RECEIPT to dress ARROZ _a la Valencia_; that is RICE _after the manner
of Valencia_.
   Take pigs-feet, mutton-trotters, bacon, new sausages and
hogs-blood-puddings.  Boil all together so long, that the bones be easily
taken off.  Cut the whole into small pieces.  (Pg. 300--ed.)  Boil rice in
the broth made by these ingredients, throwing tow pinches of saffron in it
while boiling.  When the rice is half done, take it off the fire, strain it
lightly, put it into a stewing pan, throw the above things into it, reddening
the whole with the yolks of two or three eggs.  Leave then the pan to simmer
for about half an hour, not over, but under a brick charcoal fire.

Pg. 305:  A _Confradia_ in Spain, like a _Confraternita_ in Italy, is a union
of parishioners of the higher rank...

Pg. 315:  The _basquina_ is a black petticoat, commonly of silk...
(OED has 1819 for "basquine"--ed.)

VOLUME THREE
Pg. 35:  It admits of music, and is often sung throughout as well as the
_zarzuela_, which is a kind of _petite piece_ in _two acts_ or _two days_.
(OED has an incredibly late 1888 for "zarzuela," but admits that it began in
the 17th century--ed.)

Pg. 36:  The lowest of all their dramas are the _Entremes_ and the
_Mociganga_...

Pg. 106:  ...your proverb, that _Tutto il mundo e paese_, "_all countries are
alike_."

Pg. 126:  ...he plays at _Reversino_ (a game at cards so called)...

Pg. 190:  ...a _Manta_, or _mule covering_...
(The revised OED has 1828 for this "manta"--ed.)

Pg. 215:  The old wore _monteras_, or _woollen caps_...
(OED has 1838 for "montera"--ed.)

Pg. 228:  By good luck the man of the _venta_ had his _pochero_ ready; that
is, a mess of _garvanzos_ (_chick-peas_) baked to a pap in oil, and seasoned
with garlick, onions, and pepper, besides an ample dish of salt-fish also
fried in oil, as butter cannot be the produce of this gravelly soil.
(OED has 1845 for "puchero"--ed.)

Pg. 305:  *_Donzellas del campo_...country maiden, a rustick beauty.
(OED has 1833 for "donzella"--ed.)

Pg. 309:  ..._arrieros_(_mule-drivers_)...
(OED has 1826 for "arrieros"--ed.)

VOLUME FOUR
Pg. 36:  ...while the maids are boiling _Pochero_* and frying the _Abadejo_.
*_Pochero_ is a mess of chick-peas, and French-beans boiled in oil with
onions or garlick, and _Abadejo_ is stock-fish fried in oil.

Pg. 91:  I have nothing to add with regard to Barcelona, but that the
_locanda_, or inn, called _La Fonda_, is by much the best I have as yet been
in since I left London.
(OED has 1838 for "locanda."  OED has 1826 for "fonda"--ed.)

Pg. 124:  Let it be but dinner-time, and I care not a fig for the difference
between macaroni and roast-beef, herring and frogs, the olla and the
sourcraut: a very cosmopolite on the article of filling one's belly.

Pg. 141:  But _Nice_ is so ugly a town, and affords so small a number of
amusements, that nothing, I think, but the desire of preserving life, could
induce me to come and live here.
   We dined _a table ronde_ to-day...
(Not Nice!  The most cruel passage in the book...OED does not record "table
ronde," but he's dining this way several times in this book--ed.)

Pg. 148:  The _Fandango and the _Seguedilla_, which are their national
dances...

Pg. 150:  They have it proverbial, that _el Espanol no dice mentira_, "_the
Spaniard tells no lie_."
(Compare with Crete--ed.)

Pg. 155:
Son Monaco sopr' uno scoglio:
Non Semino, e non ricoglio:
Eppure mangiar voglio.
   In English, "I am Monaco seated on a rock.  Neither do I sow, nor gather
any thing; yet I will not starve."

Pg. 207:  They make bread with the flower of it (Turkey-corn--ed.), besides a
kind of hasty pudding, like the Italian _polenta_.

Pg. 234:  ...smoaking his _Cigarro_; that is, a little tobacco wrapped in a
paper, which serves him instead of a pipe.
(OED has "cigar" from 1735, then 1777...Maybe if I submit "cigar" and
"aficionado" I can be rejected by that magazine, too--ed.)

Pg. 243:  The Spaniards have a kind of musical dramas, which they call
_Zarzuelas burlescas_.  The music of an _Opera_ (Pg. 244-ed.) _Buffa_ is
perhaps more _learned_ (as Frenchmen term it) than that of a _Zarzuela
burlesca_.
(OED has 1801 for "Opera Buffa"--ed.)

Pg. 278:  ...the supper consisted in the usual mess of _dry beans_ boiled in
oil, the usual _bacallao_ stewed (Pg. 279--ed.) in oil, the usual _sardinas_
more salt than brine, the usual _oily omelet_, with only the addition of some
_escabeche_, that is, some river-fish pickled with vinegar, sugar, and
garlick, together with some _walnuts_ and _dry grapes_ by way of desert.

Pg. 296:  ..._escabeche_...


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 11 02:06:41 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:06:41 EDT
Subject: Bat Mitzvah (1921, 1949); Kosher (1620); Mellah
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.220641.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/10/2002 2:08:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

> BAT MITZVAH
>
>     OED has 1950.  Perhaps the online New York Times has something.
>     A Google search shows that the first Bat Mitzvah was of Judith Kaplan,
>  daughter of Reconstructionist leader Mordechai Kaplan, in 1921.  Judith
>  Kaplan Eisenstein died in 1995.

Back in 1998 I chased down Judith Kaplan's bat mitzvah.  While she has been
cited in numerous books, not to mention Web sites, I was unable to determine
the date of her bat mitzvah.  Most written sources I have seen give 1922, as
do the majority of the Web sites I found on a Google search.  I have even
found two specific dates for the event, one in March 1922 and one in May
1922.

While her status as the first-ever bat mitzvah (then more likely called "bas
mitzvah") seems unassailable, a search through the local college library was
unable to turn up any contemporary written reference to it.  The earliest
citation I could find was

_The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia_ (1969 Ktav Publishing House reprint),
article "Bar Mitzvah" volume 2 page 75.  This volume carries a 1940 copyright
date.

A possible 1933 citation is referenced in Joseph L. Blau _Modern Varieties of
Judaism_ New York: Columbia University Press, 1966, pp 114-116, which cites a
1933 survey (see footnote 39 on page 199) reporting on synagogues then
conducting "bat mitzvah" ceremonies.

(Note to Jesse: I am woefully behind on submitting my Judaica antedatings to
the OED, so you'll have to enter this one.  Someday I'll catch up.)

It is entirely possible that "bat mitzvah" antedates Judith Kaplan.  Perhaps
there exists a responsa written, in English, well before 1921-22 reading"Of
course there is no equivalent 'bas mitzvah' ceremony for girls because..."

By the way, Rabbi Kaplan did not become the "leader" of Reconstructionism
until the late 1930's.  In 1921-22 he was pulpit rabbi in a Conservative
congregation and Professor of Homilectics at the Jewish Theological Seminary.


>  KOSHER
>
>     Merriam Webster says that "kosher" is a "Yiddish" term.  "Kosher" is
dated
>  to 1851.  "Yiddish" is dated to 1886.  Maybe it just took a long while to
>  name the language?

This may surprise you, but until the 1880's the English-speaking world had
next to no knowledge of the existence of the Yiddish language.

Until 1848 the bulk of the Jews in the United States were Sephardim, whose
customary language was Ladino (also called "Judeo-Spanish").  Following the
Revolutions of 1848, there was an emigration of German-speaking Jews to the
US and other English-speaking countries.  These Jews were from Germany (not
yet then a country), Austria, or other German-speaking regions, and spoke
German, not Yiddish.

Yiddish-speakers did not show up in the US in large numbers until a wave of
pogroms starting in 1881-1882 created a mass emigration of Eastern European
Jews.  These people were largely from Slavic- or Hungarian-speaking areas in
which German was rare and in which the Jews spoke Yiddish as their daily
language.

The Jews already in the US, particularly the German-speaking ones, looked
down on these newcomers.  In particular many of them sneered at Yiddish as a
language fit only for country bumpkins, and did not even refer to the
language as "Yiddish" but rather called it by the derogatory name of "Jargon".

Hence it is not surprising that the OED2 has its first citation for "Yiddish"
as late as 1875 and its second citation from 1886.

Yes, I am pretty sure the OED2 is correct in identifying "kosher" as a Hebrew
rather than a Yiddish word.  However, they fail to note that in Hebrew
"kosher" is strictlly an adjective, with the verb being "kasher" and the noun
"kashrut" (Ashkenasic "kashrus").

     - Jim Landau

"How do Reconstructionists spell the name of the Deity?   Pr-cess."  (Rachel
Braun)


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Jun 11 02:15:28 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:15:28 -0700
Subject: Turkish Beigel (Bella Chagall, 1940s); 1897 NYT "Big Apple"
In-Reply-To: <6B359C71.74548C07.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.191528.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Re: Turkish beigel

Maybe she is refering to a simit (acc. to Yeni Redhouse dict.) "roll of
bread in the shape of a ring. 2. a life buoy. 3. naut. a grommet (of
ropes). 4. anything in the shape of a ring. 5. school slang = zero.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Sun, 9 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> TURKISH BEIGEL
>
> BURNING LIGHTS
> by Bella Chagall
> translated by Norbert Guterman
> Schocken Books, New York
> 1946
>
>    Bella Chagall was married to the artist Marc Chagall.  She was born in Vitebsk, Russia, in 1895, and she died in Cranberry Lake, NY, in 1944.  She wrote in Yiddish.
>
> Pg. 52:  "Ah, you're an uncouth fellow, Israel!  Better help me to pull out
my sleeve, the lining has suddenly got twisted up like a Turkish beigel."
> (TURKISH bagel?--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 11 02:16:34 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:16:34 EDT
Subject: 1897 "Big Apple" examined
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.221634.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

1897 _N.Y. Times_ 10 Oct. SM10  An entertaining little book entitled "Some
Facts About the New York Market," has been issued by the Merchants'
Association, and it is exciting considerable comment in other cities.  Its
unique feature is the illustration by means of graded pictures, of the
relative size of New York's industries, and the industries of six or eight
of the large cities of this country. ... In the fruit and nut trade New
York takes precedence with a big apple, while the second city has only a
cherry.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------

   I checked it out today.
   The Merchants Association of New York, SOME FACTS ABOUT THE NEW YORK
MARKET, FALL TRADE EXCURSION 1897, is in the NYPL's Science, Industry and
Business Library.
   On page 16, under a section titled "Fruits and Nuts":

(Big Apple drawing--ed.)                   (Small Apple drawing--ed.)
NEW YORK $11,940,000                NEXT IN RANK $4,102,000

   The second drawing is a small _apple_--not a cherry.
   The promotional book demonstrates how big the New York market is.  For
example, "Coffee and Spices" shows a big coffee cup and a small coffee cup.
"Tobacco" shows a big pipe and a small pipe.  "Men's Furnishing Goods" shows
a big tie and a small tie.  "Shirts" shows a big shirt and a small shirt.
And so on throughout this entire book.
   "Big Apple" is not written.  The "apple" is one of many illustrations.  I
cannot see how this has anything at all to do with the slang phrase/nickname
"Big Apple," other than, perhaps, a coincidence.

OFF TOPIC:  I might as well introduce a new feature here, THE IF/WHEN
SCOREBOARD!

THE IF/WHEN SCOREBOARD
Guess which of these events comes first (if ever).  List the correct order
and win fabulous prizes!

A.  The New York Times does an article on "the Big Apple," the nickname of
its city.

B.  Armageddon.

C.  The New Jersey Nets win the NBA Championship.

D.  David Shulman appears Dean Olsher's show on NPR.

E.  Hell freezes over.

F.  I receive my $250 computer rebate from Dell.

Enter now, and good luck!
   ( Dell employees, NPR employees, NY Times employees,  NBA employees, Old
Man Winter, and the Devil are not eligible.  For other rules and
restrictions, go to www.dell.com/rebate, or call 1-800-ASK-DELL, or just
strangle that stupid DELL kid.)


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 11 02:28:16 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:28:16 EDT
Subject: Ballerina, Escabeche, Pochero, Arroz a la Valencia (1770)
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.222816.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/10/2002 9:29:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

> Pg. 51:  ...Fidalgoe's_ and _Cavallero's_ invited them to drink the health
of
>  the _amables Baylarinas_ (_amiable she-dancers_) which they all did with
the
>  noblest freedom and alacrity...
>  (OED has 1792 for "ballerina"--ed.)

Is this Spanish or Portuguese?  "Fidalgoe" is obviously a variation of
Spanish "hidalgo", a contraction of "hijo de algo" (literally "son of
someone").  "ballerina" is from Italian "ballare", "to dance".  "Baylarina"
certainly appears to be from the corresponding Spanish word, which nowadays
is spelt "bailar".  Similar words, but from different languages, and
therefore different etymologies.


>  Pg. 85:  As I was loitering before that _Meson_ waiting for supper, a
parcel
>  of poor little girls came to look at the _Estrangero_.
>  (See past posts for "Meson--ed.)

"Meson" is not Castilian Spanish, which would be "casa".  It is close to
French "maison".  But "Estrangero" is phonetically what you would expect in
Castilian, whereas the French equivalent is "etrangere" (acute accent on
first "e").


>  Pg. 200:  A rite used in this temple, which is called _Mozarob_ or
>  _Mozarabick_, originally instituted by a bishop of Seville called St.
>  Isidore...
>  (OED has 1788 for "Mozarab"--ed.)

Even as late as 1770 I find it difficult for a Bishop of Seville instituting
a "Mozarab" rite.  And for that matter, where in Catholic Spain could you
find a "temple"?


>  Pg. 263:  At the estallages and posadas you will find in general no other
>  victuals, but a mess of _garavanzos_ and _judias_ (_dry chick-pease_ and
>  _French beans_) boiled in oil and water, with a strong dose of pepper, and
a
>  dish of _bacallao_ and _sardinas_ (_stock-fish_ and _pilchards_) seasoned
>  likewise with pepper and oil.

"judia" (there is an accent on the "i") must have an interesting etymology,
since it means both "Jewess" and "string bean".

      - Jim Landau


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 11 02:29:36 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:29:36 -0400
Subject: Bat Mitzvah (1921, 1949); Kosher (1620); Mellah
In-Reply-To: <95.1dc5da9c.2a36b531@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.222936.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> In a message dated 06/10/2002 2:08:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:
>
> > BAT MITZVAH
> >
> >     OED has 1950.  Perhaps the online New York Times has something.

This appears to be the earliest in the Times, with the spelling "bas
mitzvah":

1938 _N.Y. Times_ 22 May 45  Mr. and Mrs. George N. Janis announce the bas
mitzvah of their daughter, Ruth, Saturday, May 28, 1938.


Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 11 02:35:39 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:35:39 EDT
Subject: Ballerina, Escabeche, Pochero, Arroz a la Valencia (1770)
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.223539.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/10/2002 9:29:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

>
>  Pg. 234:  ...smoaking his _Cigarro_; that is, a little tobacco wrapped in a
>  paper, which serves him instead of a pipe.

A cigar is wrapped in tobacco leaf.  The description appears to be of a
cigarette, which is tobacco wrapped in paper.  According to one story, the
cigarette was invented by a soldier whose pipe was shot off, so he emptied a
cartridge of its ball and powder and stuffed it with tobacco instead.  (By
1770 European armies had been using paper cartridges for many years.)

     - Jim Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 11 05:12:21 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 01:12:21 EDT
Subject: Hula, Mai Tai (1798); Baretti (1719-1789)
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.011221.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GIUSEPPE M. A. BARETTI (1719-1789)

   The book listed him as "Joseph" Baretti...Yes, that 1760 or 1770 "cigarro"
is probably a cigarette, not a cigar.  OED has "cigarette" from 1842?
   Fortunately, Baretti wrote other important books, so we need not guess
about "cigarro" or "ballerina" or "fandango" or  "pochero" or "escabeche."  A
check of his name shows that he wrote dictionaries of Italian and Spanish.
   I've got to do some parking tickets tomorrow (my only use to New York City
or the world), but I'll look at them in a few days.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
HULA, MAI TAI

A VOYAGE OF DISCOVERY TO THE NORTH PACIFIC OCEAN AND ROUND THE WORLD
1791-1795
by George Vancouver
in four volumes
edited by W. Kaye Lamb
London: The Hakluyt Society
1984

   This was originally published in 1798.  OED uses it for one
citation--that's right, ONE!  The first citation of "aloha."
    Vancouver is the guy they named a town after. (If you guessed Seattle,
you're close. OK, who's buried in Grant's tomb?)
    Along on this voyage was a botanist named Archibald Menzies.  Charles F.
Newcombe seems to have edited MENZIES' JOURNAL OF VANCOUVER'S VOYAGE (1923),
but I'll first look at the NYPL's copy of THE ALASKA TRAVEL JOURNAL OF
ARCHIBALD MENZIES, 1793-1794 (Fairbanks: University of Alaska Press, 1993).
   Under "strawberry," OED cites "1792 A. Menzies."  It appears to be the
only Menzies citation in OED.  One citation!  Again, this is just amazing.
   The editor here cites Menzies often, and it's probably the much richer
book, certainly for botany.  Vancouver mostly gives us second citations,
after Captain Cook.  However, the four long volumes were worth the read.  The
numbers are consecutive up to the final page 1750, so the volume number
probably is irrelevant.


VOLUME ONE
Pg. 352 (Oct. 1791):  Some of the few fish we caught were very excellent,
particularly of the larger sort; one much resembling the snook,* and another
the calipevar of Jamaica.**
*Presumably the snook barracuda.
**Calipeva; the West Indian mullet.

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 455 (March 1792):  These several portions of land were planted with the
eddo or _taro_ root...
("Taro" is in several places here.  Unfortunately, I did not see "poi," but
Menzies probably has that--ed.)

Pg. 482 (April 1792):  On Sunday the 8th, the weather being perfectly calm,
Mr. Menzieswas so fortunate as to determine this point, by killing a brown
albatross; of the same sort, I believe, as are found in abundance about
Tierra del Fuego, distinguished vulgarly by the name of Mother Cary's geese,
on account of the white rump, shape of the tail, &c. which resemble the
storm-petrel, commonly called Mother Cary's chicken.*
*Mother Carey's chickens and Mother Carey's geese were the sailors' names for
the stormy petrel and the giant petrel.  Menzies gives a description of the
bird he shot from which Newcombe concludes that it was a black-footed
albatross.  _Menzies' Journal of Vancouver's Voyage_, p. 3n.

VOLUME THREE
Pg. 822 (February 1793):  After a short respite he recovered a little, and
looking up to the most active of the party, said "_mytie, mytie_,"*
signifying "good;" the man, instantly replied "_arrowhah_,"** meaning, that
he pitied him, and instantly saluted him, by touching noses, gave him some
cloth, and assisted him to wipe and bind up his wounds.
*maikai, maikai.
**aloha.
(OED has the "aloha" but not the "mai tai."  The "aloha" is dated 1798 with
the book, but the journal entry is five years' earlier--ed.)

Pg. 834:  The warriers who were armed with the _pallaloos_, now advanced with
a considerable degree of order...
*Pololu, a long war spear.
(Not in OED--ed.)

Pg. 840 (March 1793):  ...this was held in great estimation, especially when
two or three sorts were sewn together to form that part of their dress called
the _maro_, about three yards long, and six inches broad.
(The revised OED has "maro" from 1669, 1722, and then 1833.  This citation
would come in the 110-year gap.  The revised entry is useful, for it shows me
that no one was reading Vancouver/Menzies--ed.)

Pg. 843 (March 1793):  ...I agreed with him in this opinion, but the words
"_Taboo_ King George" were sufficient to prevent a syllable more being urged
on that subject.
("Taboo" is all over this work and would be important cites after Cook--ed.)

Pg. 1009 (August 1793):  They were all small, of one sort, and were called by
us _hunched-backed_ salmon...
(OED has "gorbusch" from 1792, and "haddo" with no cites at all??--ed.)

Pg. 1171 (February 1794):  The time devoted to the decoration of the
actresses extended beyond the limits of the quiet patience of the audience,
who exclaimed two or three times, from all quarters, "_Hoorah, hoorah,
poaliealee_,"* signifying, that it would be dark and black night before the
performance would begin.
*Hula hula pouliuli.

Pg. 1173 (February 1794):  The language of the song, no doubt, corresponded
with the obscenity of their actions; which were carried to a degree of
extravagence that was calculated to produce nothing but disgust even in the
most licentious.
   This _hooarah_ occupied about an hour, and concluded with the descending
sun, it being contrary to law that such representations should continue after
that time of day.
(OED has 1825 for "hula," also given as "hura"--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Jun 11 07:59:37 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 03:59:37 -0400
Subject: Blue cent
In-Reply-To: <3D05068C.2970.4E92EA@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.035937.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>My dictionaries of slang have nothing to say about "blue cent",
>meaning an insignificant amount. Can anyone help with an origin
>and/or likely age?

I've never heard it myself AFAIK.

Here is an example attributed to Woody Guthrie, not explicitly dated but
supposedly pre-1979, from the Web:

<<But I still am glad I did fall heir to my chorea because it makes me stay
dizzy and drunk all the time without paying my bartender one little blue
cent.>>

"Blue cent" is found on the Internet several times, clearly equivalent to
the [far] more frequent and usual "red cent". Of course "red cent" means
"copper [or bronze] cent" [the standard US one-cent coin], and the "red" is
probably a simple intensifier, adding no information, probably analogous to
"thin" in "thin dime" ... although there were (long ago) "white cents",
one-cent coins made of white metal ('steel' one-cent coins issued during WW
II were not usually called "white" AFAIK).

I think a somewhat arbitrary adjective can serve as an intensifier in these
casual expressions, like "I didn't get a single solitary tiny little
f*cking red cent" or "he can kiss my big fat happy [choose skin colour]
arse". However, in some cases the adjective has some sense, as in "[I
didn't get a] plugged nickel" or "... bent farthing".

Conjectures:

(1) "Blue" referring to a copper cent which has been exposed to the
elements, or to acid, and which has turned blue/green: thus less
desirable/attractive than a shiny new cent. This possibility is supported
by the existence of "green cent" occasionally in the same sense (a few
Internet examples). This seems likely in US contexts from a few decades back.

(2) "Blue" = "counterfeit". This sense of "blue" (in "blue bit") is given
by Lighter (RHHDAS). [I suppose the original sense was "blue" = "(oxidized)
copper" as in (1) versus "red" = "gold".] This is pre-1800, though, so I
doubt its relevance.

(3) "Blue" euphemistic for "bloody". Partridge gives this with example "I
haven't a blue bean" = "I'm broke" from ca. 1910, supposedly obsolete by
1975 if I'm reading it right. This strikes me as a possibility, although
perhaps not natural for US uses. [I see a few South African examples of
"blue cent" on the Web.]

(4) Doubly-nonsense intensifier chosen simply as a color in opposition to
red: as in "I don't have a red cent; in fact, I don't even have a blue
cent; in fact, I don't have a cent of any sort!" The existence of "green
cent" occasionally in the same sense could support this possibility as well
as (1).

[NB: In Internet search, one will encounter -- in a certain role-playing
game -- a fantasy figure, apparently a type of orc, called a "cent": this
appears to be an abbreviation of "centurion", and they come in various
colors, blue, red, yellow, etc. I strongly doubt any relevance to the
current question.]

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 11 08:19:44 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 04:19:44 EDT
Subject: Asser Levy (-1681), NYC's first kosher butcher
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.041944.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ASSER LEVY (-1681), FIRST KOSHER BUTCHER

   Again, I haven't seen the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD's entry on
"kosher."  I could be duplicating what's already there--which I suppose is
good.
   Various web sites list New York's (New Amsterdam's) Asser Levy as
America's first kosher butcher.  He opened up shop November 15, 1660, or
October 15, 1660, or in 1655 (these web sites vary).
   What evidence is there of this, when our first record for the word
"kosher" is 200 years later?
   Hot dog, I've got to solve this.  My etymology serves a higher authority.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BAT MITZVAH

   I'll look in the publications:

AMERICAN HEBREW
B'NAI B'RITH MAGAZINE
THE YOUNG JUDAEAN
NEWS LETTER (National Council of Jewish Women, 1933-1939)
COUNCIL WOMAN (1940-1978)
DER IDISHER FROYEN ZSHURNAL (Jewish Women's Home Journal, 1922-1923)

   Bat Mitzvah and bagels is all I ask.  Plus latkes and rugelach.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 11 12:44:12 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:44:12 -0400
Subject: Hula, Mai Tai (1798); Baretti (1719-1789)
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.084412.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Tue, 11 Jun 2002  2:30:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

>    Vancouver is the guy they named a town after. (If you guessed Seattle,
>you're close. OK, who's buried in Grant's tomb?)

Vancouver is the guy they named an ISLAND after.  When the Canadian Pacific Railroad selected their Pacific terminus, they needed a name for it, so they arbitrarily stole the name of the island as being the most recognizable name in the area.  This is why the city of Vancouver is NOT on Vancouver Island.

Seattle was an Indian chief in the Puget Sound area.

The man buried in Grant's Tomb is named Hiram, and by now he must be getting awfully Tyred of that joke.


>   This _hooarah_ occupied about an hour, and concluded with the descending
>sun, it being contrary to law that such representations should continue after
>that time of day.

An early citation for "the last hurrah"?

    - Jim Landau


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Tue Jun 11 12:47:33 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:47:33 +0100
Subject: Serrancified
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.134733.0100.>

A subscriber has written as follows to ask about a puzzling bit of
American dialect usage. Can anyone help?

> It's from Virginia-North Carolina, an older generation, (maybe a
> hundred years back) and probably from the Appalachians. Three
> different older friends remember their grandmothers' using it.  It
> means "I'm full", "I've had plenty to eat".  Phonetically: "My
> sufficiency is serrancified". Could be "cerr", or one "r", or
> perhaps never printed! All four of us are curious about its
> origins.


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Tue Jun 11 13:20:12 2002
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:20:12 -0400
Subject: Serrancified
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.092012.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My grandmother-in-law (born and raised in Southern Ontario) often says "my
sufficiency is suffonsified." I thought perhaps she was just mis-remembering
"serrancified" (or whatever), but I found some similar variations:

suffonsified:
http://alongpoetryroad.com/2sides2acoin.html

suffancified:
http://books.dreambook.com/rootslady/outhouse.html

suffulsified:
http://www.citadel.edu/library/knob_m.htm

Here's something from the December 14, 1997 edition of the Chattanooga Free
Press:

A couple of weeks ago, someone commented on the impolite refusal of more
food, "I'm stuffed." Two readers were instructed as to alternative
responses. Say "No, thank you. I've had a plentiful sufficiency; any more
would be a super-abundancy." (The second contains a word we cannot find, but
may have been a made-up family word.) "My sufficiency is ?surrensified?;
anything more would be obnoxious to my fastidious taste."

None of this helps with the origins, but at least you know the phrase has
had a reasonably good career.

Paul

> A subscriber has written as follows to ask about a puzzling bit of
> American dialect usage. Can anyone help?
>
> > It's from Virginia-North Carolina, an older generation, (maybe a
> > hundred years back) and probably from the Appalachians. Three
> > different older friends remember their grandmothers' using it.  It
> > means "I'm full", "I've had plenty to eat".  Phonetically: "My
> > sufficiency is serrancified". Could be "cerr", or one "r", or
> > perhaps never printed! All four of us are curious about its
> > origins.


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Tue Jun 11 13:36:37 2002
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:36:37 -0400
Subject: Erin McKean has Pepto-Bismol walls
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.093637.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is a fine profile of Erin McKean in today's Chicago Tribune:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi-0206110016jun11.story

Free (and for the most part fakeable) registration is required.

Paul


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 11 13:43:01 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:43:01 -0400
Subject: Erin McKean has Pepto-Bismol walls
In-Reply-To: <03e001c2114d$050346d0$8321d0d8@logophilia.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.094301.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Jun 11, 2002 at 09:36:37AM -0400, Paul McFedries wrote:
> There is a fine profile of Erin McKean in today's Chicago Tribune:

Congrats on the wonderful profile, Erin!

Jesse


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Jun 11 15:41:54 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:41:54 -0400
Subject: Serrancified
In-Reply-To: <3D05FF75.24840.119ADDF@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.114154.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > It's from Virginia-North Carolina, an older generation, (maybe a
> > hundred years back) and probably from the Appalachians. Three
> > different older friends remember their grandmothers' using it.  It
> > means "I'm full", "I've had plenty to eat".  Phonetically: "My
> > sufficiency is serrancified". Could be "cerr", or one "r", or
> > perhaps never printed! All four of us are curious about its
> > origins.

My brief Internet search gives the following alternatives in this context:

----------

suffonsified
suffancified
sophonsified
suffulsified
suffunctified

surrencified
surrensified
cironchified
suroncified

satisfied

fanciful

----------

I cannot find any etymology. My unsupported speculation is that "My
sufficiency is ..." is originally a jocular
"hoity-toity"/"mock-aristocratic" overcorrection for "crude" or
"unladylike" expressions such as "I'm stuffed". The singer Gordon Lightfoot
(from Ontario) is quoted as saying one of these "sufficiency" things on stage.

I've heard myself the short form "I've had a sufficiency", also "I've had
an elegant sufficiency", which I think is parallel to the above.

On the Web:

"Have you had an elegant sufficiency?"
"Any more would be a reluctant redundancy!"

My mother was also Welsh and usually said "I've had an elegant
sufficiency," and my father, a Scot, who fancied himself a wag, would
inevitably reply, "And I have an elephant's capacity."

[description of Irish parents] They both enjoy a drink, though my mother
will curb any enthusiasm for same with expressions like 'You have had an
elegant sufficiency' or 'T? s? thar am.'

[a Japanese exchange student in Australia] For example, it's politer to say
"I've had an elegant sufficiency" than "I've had enough." My host mother
taught me this beautiful phrase. [Hmmm]

-- Doug Wilson


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Jun 11 16:06:18 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:06:18 -0700
Subject: Hula, Mai Tai (1798); Baretti (1719-1789)
In-Reply-To: <4A9F7EA4.76A7ADBE.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.090618.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:
>
> Vancouver is the guy they named an ISLAND after.  When the Canadian Pacific
>Railroad selected their Pacific terminus, they needed a name for it, so
>they
>arbitrarily stole the name of the island as being the most recognizable
>name
>in the area. This is why the city of Vancouver is NOT on Vancouver
Island.


Also Fort Vancouver and the city of Vancouver, Washington.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Jun 11 16:11:20 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:11:20 -0700
Subject: Bat Mitzvah (1921, 1949); Kosher (1620); Mellah
In-Reply-To: <95.1dc5da9c.2a36b531@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.091120.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:
>
> Yes, I am pretty sure the OED2 is correct in identifying "kosher" as a Hebrew
> rather than a Yiddish word.  However, they fail to note that in Hebrew
> "kosher" is strictlly an adjective, with the verb being "kasher" and the noun
> "kashrut" (Ashkenasic "kashrus").


I agree. Definitely a Hebrew word. kaf (qomets)-shin (tsere)-resh (qomets
and tsere are the vowels) so Ashkenazic pronunciation = kosher.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Jun 11 16:38:54 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:38:54 -0700
Subject: Hula, Mai Tai (1798); Baretti (1719-1789)
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.093854.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Also Fort Vancouver and the city of Vancouver, Washington.

Which were named before the Canadian venues.  So, every couple yeras when the suggestion comes up that Vancouver Wash change its name to avoid confusion with the Canadian sites, the Wash-ers say they had the name first and it's the Canadians who should change.
Fritz
allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 11 17:46:55 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:46:55 -0700
Subject: Soda pop
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.104655.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Can anyone suggest a term for clear sodas/pops (like
7-up or sprite) that would the most generally
accepted/understood?

I am writing a brochure that could be going out
accross the country. One of the topics in it is tips
for fighting nausea, and we currently suggest drinking
a "clear soda", but aren't sure if that is an east
coast bias. Any suggestions appreciated.

Thanks,

Ed

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Jun 11 17:52:16 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:52:16 +0100
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <20020611174655.44889.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.185216.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:46 am -0700 Ed Keer <edkeer at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> Can anyone suggest a term for clear sodas/pops (like
> 7-up or sprite) that would the most generally
> accepted/understood?
>
> I am writing a brochure that could be going out
> accross the country. One of the topics in it is tips
> for fighting nausea, and we currently suggest drinking
> a "clear soda", but aren't sure if that is an east
> coast bias. Any suggestions appreciated.

Yes, I think that in many places "clear soda" would be interpreted as club
soda or the like (only).  If you want it to include club soda, then "a
clear carbonated drink" should work.  If you don't want to include club
soda, then I'd either just add "like Sprite or 7-UP" at the end or "a
lemon-lime flavored carbonated drink".

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Tue Jun 11 17:52:23 2002
From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:52:23 -0400
Subject: Soda pop
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.135223.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

how about 'carbonated lemon-lime soft drink'?  In my mind that covers
you w/o worrying about implied endorsements or cross-regional
incomprehensibility.

Though I have always known gingerale to be the curative.  Would club
soda also work?  If so, please disregard the lemon-limey part...


Ed Keer wrote:
>
> Can anyone suggest a term for clear sodas/pops (like
> 7-up or sprite) that would the most generally
> accepted/understood?
>
> I am writing a brochure that could be going out
> accross the country. One of the topics in it is tips
> for fighting nausea, and we currently suggest drinking
> a "clear soda", but aren't sure if that is an east
> coast bias. Any suggestions appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 11 18:01:27 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:01:27 -0400
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <20020611174655.44889.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.140127.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It sure is regional. For me, "soda" is "seltzer" or "soda water," so
the "clear" is redundant. I know that's not what you wanted to hear
since your after a general "full" term, but I don't think you'll find
one with no regional differentiation.) Even if "clear" is good (and I
think it is), where I grew up, it would have to be "clear soft drink."

dInIs






>Can anyone suggest a term for clear sodas/pops (like
>7-up or sprite) that would the most generally
>accepted/understood?
>
>I am writing a brochure that could be going out
>accross the country. One of the topics in it is tips
>for fighting nausea, and we currently suggest drinking
>a "clear soda", but aren't sure if that is an east
>coast bias. Any suggestions appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ed
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 11 18:00:25 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:00:25 -0700
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <3D0638D7.989FBECA@cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.110025.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks for the suggestion. It may be a bit long, I can
work with it.


> Though I have always known gingerale to be the
> curative.  Would club
> soda also work?  If so, please disregard the
> lemon-limey part...
>

Yes, we mention gingerale separately. FWIW My mom
always used flat coke...


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun 11 18:06:20 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:06:20 -0400
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <20020611174655.44889.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.140620.0400.>

"Clear soda" is decidedly regional and should not be used for national
understanding.

I think "clear, carbonated soft drink" is what you need.

I might add that an old cure for nausea that I was taught was Coke, at room
temperature.  People (used to?) take cola syrup and rhubarb extract for
nausea, which was a pharmaceutical preparation.

Frank Abate


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Tue Jun 11 19:04:46 2002
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:04:46 -0400
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <20020611174655.44889.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.150446.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the west, 'soda water', or just plain 'soda', is what you'd call
'seltzer' in the east. 7-Up is a type of 'pop.' "Clear soda" would cause
confusion, and then be taken to mean "plain soda" or just "soda" = seltzer.
I would suggest "lemon-lime flavored carbonated drink". It's long, but not
confusing.

At 10:46 AM 6/11/02 -0700, Ed Keer wrote:
>Can anyone suggest a term for clear sodas/pops (like
>7-up or sprite) that would the most generally
>accepted/understood?
>
>I am writing a brochure that could be going out
>accross the country. One of the topics in it is tips
>for fighting nausea, and we currently suggest drinking
>a "clear soda", but aren't sure if that is an east
>coast bias. Any suggestions appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ed
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Tue Jun 11 19:14:59 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:14:59 -0400
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <NFBBKBPMKLKNJGANHOEAAEAHDAAA.abatefr@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.151459.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My mother (in Atlanta) gave us kids Coca Cola syrup for nausea.

--Charles Wells

>I might add that an old cure for nausea that I was taught was Coke, at room
>temperature.  People (used to?) take cola syrup and rhubarb extract for
>nausea, which was a pharmaceutical preparation.
>
>Frank Abate



Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 11 19:50:28 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:50:28 -0400
Subject: Read with pleasure:  thanks for the wonderful new book
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.155028.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm sure every ADS member on the list (and that's all of us, right?)
will share my enthusiasm over the Allen Walker Read compendium that
just came in the mail (ADS Pub. #26, _Milestones in the History of
English in America_).  It contains, inter (many) alia, AWR's
groundbreaking expose of OK (the real story and the folklore) and
his...er, muckraking analysis of the F-word, along with
autobiographical sketches, letters from Tom Paikeday and others,
various papers on British and (or vs.) U.S. English, and the
impressive bibliography of AWR's publications.  Kudos to all
involved, including Ron Butters (for the ADS connection), Richard
Bailey (editor), Frank Abate (indexer), and my former undergraduate
student Anne Curzan for their individual and collective help in
bringing this to us, and of course most of all to the nonpareil Allen
Walker Read himself.

Larry


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Tue Jun 11 22:00:23 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:00:23 -0400
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <20020611174655.44889.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.180023.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

clear carbonated beverage

or

clear carbonated soft drink.

Although, soda water is what I grew up with.

rhk


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Tue Jun 11 22:11:35 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:11:35 -0400
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <3D0638D7.989FBECA@cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.181135.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

><))));>Though I have always known gingerale to be the curative.

If only it had any real ginger in it anymore.  Nowadays,  the ginger in
ginger ale is a mere artificial flavor.  On other e-mail lists I belong to
where we discuss open water sailboat cruising & the liveaboard lifestyle,
as far as the natural preventatives are concerned,  real candied ginger is
the thing, followed by homemade ginger snaps.  Also, available in sailing
shops, is ginger ale made with real ginger.  Of course, preventative is the
operative word here.

BTW, in an article I read some time back on the making of the movie Apollo
13, where much of the film was shot inside NASAs zero gravity simulator, an
airplane aptly nicknamed the vomit comet, it was intimated that NASA
astronauts swear by cherry-flavored Lifesavers as a preventative.

rhk


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 11 22:34:18 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:34:18 -0400
Subject: Read with pleasure:  thanks for the wonderful new book
In-Reply-To: <p04320405b92c01afd9bf@[130.132.231.227]>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.183418.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If I may add Presidential kudos, Larry couldn't have said it no
better. I still remember the scholarly but so entertaining ADS
address when Allen revealed his internal deliberations over whether,
as a fledging scholar in Britain, he should respond with the locally
ubiquitous "heah" or his native "here" in answering the roll-call. I
am quite sure what he did, but, to his credit, he left us hanging. In
contrast, his scholarship left us hanging only when he could not
produce the impeccably arrayed evidence and careful argument which
characterized every part of his work. This is, indeed, an ADS
treasure.

dInIs



>I'm sure every ADS member on the list (and that's all of us, right?)
>will share my enthusiasm over the Allen Walker Read compendium that
>just came in the mail (ADS Pub. #26, _Milestones in the History of
>English in America_).  It contains, inter (many) alia, AWR's
>groundbreaking expose of OK (the real story and the folklore) and
>his...er, muckraking analysis of the F-word, along with
>autobiographical sketches, letters from Tom Paikeday and others,
>various papers on British and (or vs.) U.S. English, and the
>impressive bibliography of AWR's publications.  Kudos to all
>involved, including Ron Butters (for the ADS connection), Richard
>Bailey (editor), Frank Abate (indexer), and my former undergraduate
>student Anne Curzan for their individual and collective help in
>bringing this to us, and of course most of all to the nonpareil Allen
>Walker Read himself.
>
>Larry

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 11 23:29:54 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:29:54 -0400
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <NJEFLDNDEIDMAKCHIMJGIEFNCFAA.rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.192954.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:11 PM -0400 6/11/02, Rick Kennerly wrote:
>  ><))));>Though I have always known gingerale to be the curative.
>
>If only it had any real ginger in it anymore.  Nowadays,  the ginger in
>ginger ale is a mere artificial flavor.  On other e-mail lists I belong to
>where we discuss open water sailboat cruising & the liveaboard lifestyle,
>as far as the natural preventatives are concerned,  real candied ginger is
>the thing, followed by homemade ginger snaps.  Also, available in sailing
>shops, is ginger ale made with real ginger.  Of course, preventative is the
>operative word here.
>
Have you checked out Goya's (or other Caribbean-style) ginger BEER?
It tastes quite gingery to me, infinitely more so than so-called
ginger ale, and quite tasty (as soft drinks go).  The nomenclature is
puzzling, though.  It's clear that no formula along the lines of

ginger beer : beer :: ginger ale : ale

can be plausibly defended.

larry


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Jun 11 23:36:19 2002
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:36:19 -0400
Subject: Happy Bloomsday
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.193619.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Those of you who have memorized Ulysses -- and I hope that that is all
of you -- will remember that in the chapter set in the National Library
there is the following passage:

        Lenehan gave a loud cough.  -- Ahem! he said very softly.  O,
for a fresh of breath air! [sic] I caught a cold in the park.  The gate
was open.
        James Joyce, Ulysses.  (The "Omnium Gatherum" subsection of the
chaper "Aeolus" (ch. 7).  vol. II, p. 281 of the Hans Gabler edition)

I was reading an issue of the Evening Chronicle from 1837 just the
other day, and found the following foreshadowing of Lenehan's joke:

        Two loafers slept in the Park last night, taking the precaution
to keep the gates shut.

And what was the date of this newspaper?  June 16, 1837!  Pretty
spooky, eh?  And some people say there is no god, and that James Joyce
wasn't him.

(I apologize for sending this Bloomsday wish out a few days early, but
I expect to be on the road on the 16th.)

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998.


From buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET  Wed Jun 12 02:27:50 2002
From: buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET (DAK)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:27:50 -0400
Subject: BLUE CENT
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.222750.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OPA            Tokens used for rationing during World War II
                    There are 30 different red tokens and 24 blue ones.
                    They are all celluloid and 16mm in size.

Blue ones read:  OPA   Blue Point 1       (with two different letters)

            Red ones read: OPA Red Point 1 (with two different letters)

===============================================

.
  1.  OPA Tokens - Red and Blue
    E-mail Token Bob OPA's. ... OPA Tokens used for rationing during World War II There ... Blue ones read: OPA
    Blue Point 1 (with two different letters ...
    http://www.fantasticprices.com/token/...

  2.
    Victory (E-)Mail
    ... I recall from the World ... The red and blue tokens ... stamp, you received the token ... Richard Buro (Temple
    ISD): Rationing ... the table during the war ... But we had two bikes ...
    http://www.rice.edu/armadillo/About/w...

  3.
    Welcome to Coin World - enriching coin collecting through ...
    ... Price Administration in 1944 during World War ... family during periods of rationing ... issued in red and
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    http://www.coinworld.com/scripts/Glos...

  4.
    Welcome to Coin World - enriching coin collecting through ...
    ... Price Administration in 1944 during World War ... family during periods of rationing ... issued in red and
    blue ... sides of the OPA token ... a numeral 1 flanked by two ...
    http://www.coinworld.com/scripts/Glos...

  5.
    Washington Station, Chapter 5
    ... Token, Token, Who Has a Token ... Finally, after two years of rationing ... came our way during the war ...
    disposition of these red and blue ... government to use for rationing ...
    http://users.snip.net/~cgf172/DC%20St...

  6.
    WOMEN IN THE WEATHER BUREAU DURING WORLD WAR II
    ... In short, it is a token ... stores and cope with rationing ... US Weather Bureau during World ... I recall that there
    were two ... a contribution to the war ... the clean deep blue ...
    http://www.lib.noaa.gov/edocs/women.html

  7.
    pepita7
    ... Josephine Martinez Granado. World War II. ... The rationing, when I was ... I used to have two ... I have one
    token; a ... for the meat and blue ... for entertainment during the war ...
    http://www.geocities.com/our_morenci/...

  8.
    The Victory Home: A WWII Home Front Reference Library
    ... book/stamps, 9. Ration token. ... the Great Depression to World War II ... card--one pound every two ...
    customers under the point rationing ... Washington, DC Blue and red ...
    http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~mcoates/...

  9.
    CI Reader Volume 2 Chapter 1
    ... diplomatic posts around the world ... interested in the election, rationing ... to be a good luck token ...
    individual was wearing a blue ... about one or two ... to prisoners of war ...
    http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/docs/ci...

 10.
    WOMEN IN THE WEATHER BUREAU DURING WORLD WAR II
    ... In short, it is a token ... stores and cope with rationing ... US Weather Bureau during World ... I recall that there
    were two ... a contribution to the war ... the clean deep blue ...
    http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/~nws/women/h...

 11.
    Twentieth-Century NC
    ... It acknowledges that World War ... The Duke Blue Devils lose ... 1944 Because of food rationing ... beginning
    a period of token ... Their war whoops and ... the Klan members, two ...
    http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/ed_time_...

 12.
    ADDRESS OF THE PRESIDENT BROADCAST NATIONALLY
    ... no one can draw a blue ... the home front." For the two ... greater justice throughout the world ... By the same
    token -- a ... buying your limit of war ... and in making rationing ...
    http://www.mhric.org/fdr/chat25.html

 13.
    Joy Of Cooking - Edition History
    ... Dark blue cover with blue & ... from the same plates, with World War II rationing ... published in various one-
    or two ... Swats, Judy Israel, Mark Becker(token ...
    http://www.cookbkjj.com/college/joy.htm

 14.
    Fordhouses Methodist Church History
    ... Two months ago several memorial ... recess refurbished with a blue ... the blackout, bombing raids, rationing ...
    As a token of gratitude ... of hostilities in World War ...
    http://www.scit.wlv.ac.uk/~cm1914/Wol...

 15.
    World War 2 Timeline -- Earth 2
    ... Events in Dark Blue are ... 1940 January 8, 1940- Rationing ... for the US in World ... damage another cruiser
    and two ... landing of the Pacific War ... but resistance is token. ...
    http://members.aol.com/GAThrawn13/chi...


From Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM  Wed Jun 12 02:38:25 2002
From: Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM (Jewls2u)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:38:25 -0700
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <p04320401b92c37d19199@[130.132.231.164]>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.193825.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have been a west coaster all of my life and always thought soda was pop,
not seltzer. Clear soda would read the same to me as clear pop...that is
7-Up or Sprite. Many moons ago I worked in a hospital where patients were
given a clear liquid diet for any number of reasons, including an upset
stomach. Clear liquids included Sprite, 7-Up, broth, jello and flat Coke.

Julienne

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Laurence Horn
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 3:30 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Soda pop


At 6:11 PM -0400 6/11/02, Rick Kennerly wrote:
>  ><))));>Though I have always known gingerale to be the curative.
>
>If only it had any real ginger in it anymore.  Nowadays,  the ginger in
>ginger ale is a mere artificial flavor.  On other e-mail lists I belong to
>where we discuss open water sailboat cruising & the liveaboard lifestyle,
>as far as the natural preventatives are concerned,  real candied ginger is
>the thing, followed by homemade ginger snaps.  Also, available in sailing
>shops, is ginger ale made with real ginger.  Of course, preventative is the
>operative word here.
>
Have you checked out Goya's (or other Caribbean-style) ginger BEER?
It tastes quite gingery to me, infinitely more so than so-called
ginger ale, and quite tasty (as soft drinks go).  The nomenclature is
puzzling, though.  It's clear that no formula along the lines of

ginger beer : beer :: ginger ale : ale

can be plausibly defended.

larry


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Jun 12 03:05:09 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:05:09 -0400
Subject: Bat Mitzvah (1921, 1949); Kosher (1620); Mellah
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0206102226520.478-100000@ares.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.230509.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Fred Shapiro wrote:

#This appears to be the earliest in the Times, with the spelling "bas
#mitzvah":
#
#1938 _N.Y. Times_ 22 May 45  Mr. and Mrs. George N. Janis announce the bas
#mitzvah of their daughter, Ruth, Saturday, May 28, 1938.

The /s/ pronunciation, deriving from the Yiddish pronunciation of the
Hebrew tav ("sav, thav"; the undotted form of the last letter of the
aleph-bet) is the only one I would expect in the US in that period.
"Bat" is the Sephardi pronunciation used in Modern Hebrew. Cf.
        Yiddish         ModHeb          gloss
        shabbos         shabbat         Sabbath
/       bris                            circumcision
\                       brit (milah)    covenant (of circ.)

-- Mark A. Mandel


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Wed Jun 12 10:24:53 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 06:24:53 -0400
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <p04320401b92c37d19199@[130.132.231.164]>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.062453.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

|o| Have you checked out Goya's (or other Caribbean-style) ginger BEER?

No, but I'll give it a try.

|o|The nomenclature is
|o| puzzling, though.  It's clear that no formula along the lines of
|o|
|o| ginger beer : beer :: ginger ale : ale
|o|
|o| can be plausibly defended.
|o|

But ginger beer flows from the same er...root...as root beer, as does birch
beer.  What is confusing is the word beer, which has two meaning in English.
One, the Bud Light kind made from cereals and containing alcohol and the
other in the sense of a beverage made from root extracts that is
non-alcoholic, a usage almost lost in modern language outside an A&W stand.
They both have the common brewers link of natural carbonation, caused by the
addition of yeast and sugar before bottling.  Alcoholic beer and
non-alcoholic beer differ only base ingredients (cereals vs root extract)
and in the fermentation process.

BTW, the root in root beer is traditionally an extract of the root of the
sassafras tree or, in older days, the sarsaparilla vine--making sarsaparilla
the good-guy drink in old westerns and a word that always gives me the
giggles.

rhk


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 12 10:31:25 2002
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 03:31:25 -0700
Subject: Soda pop
In-Reply-To: <NJEFLDNDEIDMAKCHIMJGIEFNCFAA.rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.033125.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Speaking of real ginger, ginger beer is a spicy gingerale which has
real ginger.


--- Rick Kennerly <rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM> wrote:
> ><))));>Though I have always known gingerale to be the curative.
>
> If only it had any real ginger in it anymore.  Nowadays,  the
> ginger in
> ginger ale is a mere artificial flavor.  On other e-mail lists I
> belong to
> where we discuss open water sailboat cruising & the liveaboard
> lifestyle,
> as far as the natural preventatives are concerned,  real candied
> ginger is
> the thing, followed by homemade ginger snaps.  Also, available in
> sailing
> shops, is ginger ale made with real ginger.  Of course,
> preventative is the
> operative word here.
>
> BTW, in an article I read some time back on the making of the movie
> Apollo
> 13, where much of the film was shot inside NASAs zero gravity
> simulator, an
> airplane aptly nicknamed the vomit comet, it was intimated that
> NASA
> astronauts swear by cherry-flavored Lifesavers as a preventative.
>
> rhk


=====
Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Associate Professor - English and Linguistics
 & University Editor
Department of English
Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
(757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home)
e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu   or   mlee303 at yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 12 12:22:03 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:22:03 -0400
Subject: Arthur Andersen trial
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.082203.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from AOL News:
"Deliberations began Thursday and stretched through the weekend. The jury has been quiet since Sunday, when U.S. District Judge Melinda Harmon denied their request for a dictionary."


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun 12 12:57:24 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:57:24 -0400
Subject: Arthur Andersen trial
In-Reply-To: <4D97BA75.12395EF2.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.085724.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

>from AOL News:
>"Deliberations began Thursday and stretched through the weekend. The
jury has been quiet since Sunday, when U.S. District Judge Melinda
Harmon denied their request for a dictionary."

That is an ordinary and usual response to a request for a dictionary from
a jury - and rightly so, probably. The judge also said that she or others
would define words for the jurors. What I would like to know is whether
words were in fact defined - if definitions were actually requested - or
whether, as is usual, jurors were simply referred back to their
original instructions.

Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 12 14:30:06 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:30:06 -0400
Subject: Mevin (1950); Falafel (1953); Nu (1949)
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.103006.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Merry Christmas Everybody
--Arthur Godfrey
   _ABC--Always Buy Chesterfield_
(The full-color, back-page ad in the NATIONAL JEWISH MONTHLY, December 1948--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
MEVIN

   A much more appropriate advertisement is this one, in the NATIONAL JEWISH MONTHLY, November 1950, pg. 109:

A "Meichel"* for a "Mevin"**
with an (u) on the label***

      A Glossary of Terms
      (Just in case you need it)

*_Meichel_ (pronounced mi-chel)--a delicacy; a choice morsel.  Example: Heinz Kosher Baked Beans.  The oven-baking and the delicious tomato sauce are what make them a "meichel" (see definition above).
**_Mevin_ (pronounced ma-vin)--a connoisseur; an expert.  Example: The Jewish housewife who buys no other beans but Heinz.
***(u)(pronounced o-yu)--the seal of endorsement of THE UNION OF ORTHODOX JEWISH CONGREGATIONS OF AMERICA.  The (u) seal is on the front of the label.

HEINZ OVEN-BAKED BEANS
Strictly Kosher--Strictly Pareve--Strictly Vegetarian

(The revised OED has 1952 for "maven"...Normally, "the language maven" would be interested in this, but it comes from Barry Popik, so it'll never be printed--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
FALAFEL (continued)

   From THE JEWISH SPECTATOR, vol18, January 1953, pg. 17, col. 2:

   And there are the boot blacks with their long boxes, and the "falafel" stands.  That you learn is a special Israeli spicy, fried concoction which is eaten together with pickle and a brown roll.  If you pass that up you may treat yourself to a hot corn served on a corn husk--without butter, of course.  There is "tzena" (austerity) in Israel and no butter is served with anything.

---------------------------------------------------------------
CHOCOLATE MATZOS

   Perhaps of interest to the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD.
   From the NATIONAL JEWISH MONTHLY, February 1950, pg. 218, back age ad:

_32 KOSHER FOR PASSOVER_
_delicacies by BARTON'S bonbonniere_

The New
Chocolate MATZOS
The Pasover Sensation!
Replicas of matzos in Barton's incomparable chocolate--studded with nuts.
1 lb. $1.40  2 lbs. $2.80

(What'll they think of next?  Chocolate-covered macaroons?--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
NU

   From the NATIONAL JEWISH MONTHLY, February 1949, pg. 171, col. 3:

_NU?_
_A True Short Story_
By Bernard Passman
(...)
   "Know any Yiddish?" he demanded.
   "A little," I answered, becoming more baffled by the minute.
   "Ever heard of the word _nu_?"
   "Sure," I said.  "Don't you ever listen to Fred Allen?"
   "No.  What does it mean?"
   "It means _well_."
   "Well, what?"
   "That's all--just _well_.  As in _'Nu, vus vils du?'_--or, 'Well, what do you want?'"  _From my young life_, I felt like adding.
   The colonel looked doubtful.
(...)


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Jun 12 15:10:38 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:10:38 -0700
Subject: Soda pop
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.081038.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>> Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM 06/11/02 07:38PM >>>
I have been a west coaster all of my life and always thought soda was pop,
not seltzer.

I have heard many Californians use soda, even in places where old-timers used to say pop.  For me, when I was growing up, 'soda' was a white powder that we used in baking.  I was amazed that anyone could use it as a drink.  I thought soda must be one of the ingredients in pop--maybe the one that gave pop its fizz.
Fritz


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun 12 15:23:48 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:23:48 -0400
Subject: SCMLA Oct 30-Nov 1, 2003 - Hot Springs, Arkansas
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.112348.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am planning to propose a Special Session on Linguistics Communities in
the South Central Region for the Fall 2003 meeting of SCMLA in Hot
Springs, Arkansas - please email me privately if you think you might be
interested in participating.

Thanks,
Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 12 17:54:54 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:54:54 -0400
Subject: Kibbutz, Moshav, Shlemazzle (1928)
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.135454.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SHLEMAZZLE

   From the B'NAI B'RITH MAGAZINE (NATIONAL JEWISH MONTHLY), February 1928, pg. 130, col. 2:

   "...and look at me, all covered with flour--what don't I look like--I've been such a _shlemazzle_..."

(See "Laverne & Shirley" tv theme song, as sung by Penny Marshall--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
KIBBUTZ

   From the B'NAI B'RITH MAGAZINE, April 1928, pg. 231, col. 2:

   It is a _moshav_, or small holder's settlement, with a population of about a hundred families, each of which occupies a separate plot of ground, and works it under conditions much like those of the settlers in Crimea.

  (...)

  Ain Harod, the largest _kevutzah_ in Palestine, is a striking manifestation of radical social theory.  Over four hundred persons live here an absolutely communal life, eating together in large community dining halls, sleeping together in common barracks, sharing alike in the good and ill fortunes of the community.  Private property is practically unknown.

(OED has 1931 for "kibbutz" and "moshav"--ed.)


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Jun 12 20:32:40 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:32:40 -0700
Subject: pre-purchased
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.133240.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here is a note from our person in charge of student 'stuff' at our high school:

All students who pre-purchased a yearbook will have theirs delivered directly to their homes from the yearbook company.   Last chance to get your yearbook inserts today after school, for those who have already purchased yearbooks.

Any comments on 'pre-purchased'?  Why not just 'purchased' ?  Of course, I understand it, but it looks and sounds very odd to me, especially since she switched to 'already purchased' late rin the message.
Fritz


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Wed Jun 12 20:47:17 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 21:47:17 +0100
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <sd074da5.080@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.214717.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Wednesday, June 12, 2002 1:32 pm -0700 FRITZ JUENGLING
<juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US> wrote:

> Here is a note from our person in charge of student 'stuff' at our high
> school:
>
> All students who pre-purchased a yearbook will have theirs delivered
> directly to their homes from the yearbook company.   Last chance to get
> your yearbook inserts today after school, for those who have already
> purchased yearbooks.
>
> Any comments on 'pre-purchased'?  Why not just 'purchased' ?  Of course,
> I understand it, but it looks and sounds very odd to me, especially since
> she switched to 'already purchased' late rin the message.

Pre-purchased because you're not actually in possession of the thing you
purchased yet--ownership of the yearbook is still vague (the payer 'owns'
it without having it).  I'd probably prefer 'all students who've paid for
their yearbooks'.

Lynne

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun 12 20:51:57 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:51:57 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <sd074da5.080@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.165157.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

>Any comments on 'pre-purchased'?  Why not just 'purchased' ?  Of course,
I understand it, but it looks and sounds very odd to me, especially since
she switched to 'already purchased' late rin the message.

How about "pre-paid"?

Bethany


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Jun 12 20:55:56 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:55:56 -0700
Subject: pre-purchased
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.135556.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Pre-purchased because you're not actually in possession of the thing you
>purchased yet--ownership of the yearbook is still vague (the payer 'owns'
>it without having it).

Yes, the meaning is clear, but when you order something thru the mail and send along payment, but have not received the item, would you say that you have "pre-purchased" it until it shows up?
Fritz




Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Jun 12 21:00:11 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:00:11 -0700
Subject: pre-purchased
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.140011.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bethany,
are you suggesting that 'pre-paid' be substituted for 'pre-purchased' or that 'pre-paid' is another goofy (unnecessary?) word, i.e. if you give money for something, you 'pay'-- no need to say 'pre-' ?
Fritz


>Any comments on 'pre-purchased'?  Why not just 'purchased' ?  Of course,
I understand it, but it looks and sounds very odd to me, especially since
she switched to 'already purchased' late rin the message.

How about "pre-paid"?


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Jun 12 21:03:58 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:03:58 -0700
Subject: pre-purchased and diploma's
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.140358.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, regardless of purchasing or pre-purchasing, our graduating seniors were instructed on the signs in front of our school that "DIPLOMA'S CAN BE PICKED UP ON TUESDAY. "
Fritz
>>> dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU 06/12/02 01:51PM >>>
On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

>Any comments on 'pre-purchased'?  Why not just 'purchased' ?  Of course,
I understand it, but it looks and sounds very odd to me, especially since
she switched to 'already purchased' late rin the message.

How about "pre-paid"?

Bethany


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun 12 21:15:56 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:15:56 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <sd075404.085@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.171556.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

>Bethany, >are you suggesting that 'pre-paid' be substituted for
'pre-purchased' or that 'pre-paid' is another goofy (unnecessary?) word,
i.e. if you give money for something, you 'pay'-- no need to say 'pre-' ?
>Fritz

I usually like shorter goofy words better than longer goofy words!

Bethany


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun 12 21:17:39 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:17:39 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased and diploma's
In-Reply-To: <sd0754e9.000@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.171739.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

>Well, regardless of purchasing or pre-purchasing, our graduating seniors
were instructed on the signs in front of our school that "DIPLOMA'S CAN BE
PICKED UP ON TUESDAY. "

Ah, good! No pickups, prepaid or prepurchased or otherwise, without
greengrocers' apostrophes! There's progress!

: )

Bethany


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Wed Jun 12 21:23:10 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 22:23:10 +0100
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <sd0752fa.070@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.222310.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Wednesday, June 12, 2002 1:55 pm -0700 FRITZ JUENGLING
<juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US> wrote:

>> Pre-purchased because you're not actually in possession of the thing you
>> purchased yet--ownership of the yearbook is still vague (the payer 'owns'
>> it without having it).
>
> Yes, the meaning is clear, but when you order something thru the mail and
> send along payment, but have not received the item, would you say that
> you have "pre-purchased" it until it shows up? Fritz

You'd usually say you'd 'ordered' it, because in the mail-order context,
the fact that you've paid when ordering is usually understood.  But outside
that context, 'order' doesn't work--when I order a sandwich, I don't pay
for it until it's arrived.  So you need something different to say in a
situation like buying yearbooks or girl scout cookies in anticipation of
receiving them much later.

As usual, my examples have made me hungry.

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Jun 12 21:27:05 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:27:05 -0700
Subject: pre-purchased
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.142705.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>As usual, my examples have made me hungry.


Me, too--thanks goodness my daughter is a Girl Scout.

Fritz



Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Jun 12 21:58:23 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:58:23 -0700
Subject: seedless and seeded
In-Reply-To: <sd075a4b.087@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.145823.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At a local grocery store in Monroe, Wash. there are several bins of
watermelons half of which have signs reading "Seedless 49c per lb." and,
for the sake of clarity I guess, the others have signs reading: "Seeded
29c per lb."

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 12 22:46:14 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:46:14 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <33142738.3232909390@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.184614.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Lynne,

Have you learned to eat yearbooks in Sussex?

But, on-topic, I don't find making the distinction between stuff you
paid for and ain't got yet and stuff you paid for and done got
useless, and I think Bethany meant for "prepaid" to be the slightly
less fancy synonym of "prepurchased."

Could we have some lexical semantic explanation (unless, as is so
often the case, it is something lurking in the phonology) of why they
both sound real good to me and "prebought" sounds awful.

dInIs


>--On Wednesday, June 12, 2002 1:55 pm -0700 FRITZ JUENGLING
><juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US> wrote:
>
>>>Pre-purchased because you're not actually in possession of the thing you
>>>purchased yet--ownership of the yearbook is still vague (the payer 'owns'
>>>it without having it).
>>
>>Yes, the meaning is clear, but when you order something thru the mail and
>>send along payment, but have not received the item, would you say that
>>you have "pre-purchased" it until it shows up? Fritz
>
>You'd usually say you'd 'ordered' it, because in the mail-order context,
>the fact that you've paid when ordering is usually understood.  But outside
>that context, 'order' doesn't work--when I order a sandwich, I don't pay
>for it until it's arrived.  So you need something different to say in a
>situation like buying yearbooks or girl scout cookies in anticipation of
>receiving them much later.
>
>As usual, my examples have made me hungry.
>
>Lynne
>
>
>Dr M Lynne Murphy
>Lecturer in Linguistics
>Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
>School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
>University of Sussex
>Brighton BN1 9QH
>UK
>
>phone +44-(0)1273-678844
>fax   +44-(0)1273-671320

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Wed Jun 12 23:16:57 2002
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:16:57 -0500
Subject: Blue cent
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.181657.0500.>

It may or may not be relevant to recall that during WWII many food items
were rationed in the U.S.  Every individual was entitled to a monthly quota
of different kinds of ration stamps.  To purchase a rationed item, the
buyer paid both a price in dollars and a separate price in ration stamps.
Cardboard tokens were used as "change" for items valued at a fraction of a
ration stamp.  The tokens were about the size of a penny, and were issued
in two colors:
red for meat and blue for processed foods.

IIRC, the tokens replaced ration stamps in 1944 or so -- but my memory of
these items is fuzzy: in my family, my mother closely controlled everyone's
food stamps.  The only reason my father retained control of gasoline ration
stamps was that my mother never learned to drive.

-- mike salovesh   <m-salovesh-9 at alumni.uchicago.edu>   PEACE !!!

"Douglas G. Wilson" wrote:
>
> >My dictionaries of slang have nothing to say about "blue cent",
> >meaning an insignificant amount. Can anyone help with an origin
> >and/or likely age?
>
> I've never heard it myself AFAIK.
>
> Here is an example attributed to Woody Guthrie, not explicitly dated but
> supposedly pre-1979, from the Web:
>
> <<But I still am glad I did fall heir to my chorea because it makes me stay
> dizzy and drunk all the time without paying my bartender one little blue
> cent.>>
>
> "Blue cent" is found on the Internet several times, clearly equivalent to
> the [far] more frequent and usual "red cent". Of course "red cent" means
> "copper [or bronze] cent" [the standard US one-cent coin], and the "red" is
> probably a simple intensifier, adding no information, probably analogous to
> "thin" in "thin dime" ... although there were (long ago) "white cents",
> one-cent coins made of white metal ('steel' one-cent coins issued during WW
> II were not usually called "white" AFAIK).
>
> I think a somewhat arbitrary adjective can serve as an intensifier in these
> casual expressions, like "I didn't get a single solitary tiny little
> f*cking red cent" or "he can kiss my big fat happy [choose skin colour]
> arse". However, in some cases the adjective has some sense, as in "[I
> didn't get a] plugged nickel" or "... bent farthing".
>
> Conjectures:
>
> (1) "Blue" referring to a copper cent which has been exposed to the
> elements, or to acid, and which has turned blue/green: thus less
> desirable/attractive than a shiny new cent. This possibility is supported
> by the existence of "green cent" occasionally in the same sense (a few
> Internet examples). This seems likely in US contexts from a few decades back.
>
> (2) "Blue" = "counterfeit". This sense of "blue" (in "blue bit") is given
> by Lighter (RHHDAS). [I suppose the original sense was "blue" = "(oxidized)
> copper" as in (1) versus "red" = "gold".] This is pre-1800, though, so I
> doubt its relevance.
>
> (3) "Blue" euphemistic for "bloody". Partridge gives this with example "I
> haven't a blue bean" = "I'm broke" from ca. 1910, supposedly obsolete by
> 1975 if I'm reading it right. This strikes me as a possibility, although
> perhaps not natural for US uses. [I see a few South African examples of
> "blue cent" on the Web.]
>
> (4) Doubly-nonsense intensifier chosen simply as a color in opposition to
> red: as in "I don't have a red cent; in fact, I don't even have a blue
> cent; in fact, I don't have a cent of any sort!" The existence of "green
> cent" occasionally in the same sense could support this possibility as well
> as (1).
>
> [NB: In Internet search, one will encounter -- in a certain role-playing
> game -- a fantasy figure, apparently a type of orc, called a "cent": this
> appears to be an abbreviation of "centurion", and they come in various
> colors, blue, red, yellow, etc. I strongly doubt any relevance to the
> current question.]
>
> -- Doug Wilson

--


From dave at WILTON.NET  Thu Jun 13 00:26:14 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:26:14 -0700
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0206121714060.9426-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.172614.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another "pre-" word that you see all time used by diplomats and reporters
(who, since they use words for a living, should know better) is
"pre-condition." As in: "Arafat would not agree on Sharon's pre-conditions
for the the talks." Plain, old "conditions" does just fine.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Bethany K. Dumas
> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 2:16 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: pre-purchased
>
>
> On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
>
> >Bethany, >are you suggesting that 'pre-paid' be substituted for
> 'pre-purchased' or that 'pre-paid' is another goofy
> (unnecessary?) word,
> i.e. if you give money for something, you 'pay'-- no need to
> say 'pre-' ?
> >Fritz
>
> I usually like shorter goofy words better than longer goofy words!
>
> Bethany
>


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 13 00:35:34 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:35:34 EDT
Subject: seedless and seeded
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.203534.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/12/2002 5:58:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes:

> At a local grocery store in Monroe, Wash. there are several bins of
>  watermelons half of which have signs reading "Seedless 49c per lb." and,
>  for the sake of clarity I guess, the others have signs reading: "Seeded
>  29c per lb."

I don't know if it still does, but years ago the Giant grocery chain in
Washington DC carried a house brand of "Dandruff Shampoo" and immediately
adjacent to it a house brand of "Anti-Dandruff Shampoo."

   - Jim Landau


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 13 01:05:57 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 21:05:57 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0206121714060.9426-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.210557.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:15 PM -0400 6/12/02, Bethany K. Dumas wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
>
>>Bethany, >are you suggesting that 'pre-paid' be substituted for
>'pre-purchased' or that 'pre-paid' is another goofy (unnecessary?) word,
>i.e. if you give money for something, you 'pay'-- no need to say 'pre-' ?
>>Fritz
>
>I usually like shorter goofy words better than longer goofy words!
>
>Bethany

Of course you'd need a non-goofy little word to go with "pre-pay" as
opposed to "pre-purchase":  You could pre-purchase the yearbook or
pre-pay *for* the yearbook but not vice versa.  I think it might even
be argued that there's a subtle distinction between pre-purchasing an
item and pre-paying for it, parallel to the distinction between
purchasing it and paying for it.  If an item may or may not be in
stock or available, or if the purchase in other ways might be
unconsummated, you could pre-pay for it (and get your money refunded
later) but that wouldn't necessarily be a case of pre-purchasing it.
One context might be (pre-)paying for playoff or World Series tickets
for a team that gets eliminated the last day of the regular season.
Possibly that would also count as (pre-)purchasing them, but maybe
not for everyone; as J. L. Austin would have said, purchasing
something requires "uptake" but paying for something needn't.

Larry,
plumping for the Bolinger Doctrine that every word should earn its keep


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 13 01:10:59 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 21:10:59 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b92d7eb77337@[35.12.20.194]>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.211059.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:46 PM -0400 6/12/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>But, on-topic, I don't find making the distinction between stuff you
>paid for and ain't got yet and stuff you paid for and done got
>useless, and I think Bethany meant for "prepaid" to be the slightly
>less fancy synonym of "prepurchased."

ah, if they ARE synonyms.  (See previous note.)

>
>Could we have some lexical semantic explanation (unless, as is so
>often the case, it is something lurking in the phonology) of why they
>both sound real good to me and "prebought" sounds awful.
>

well, it may be just the Latinate vs. native vocabulary distinction.
Pre- for Latin stems (pre-pay, pre-purchase) but not for Germanic
ones (*pre-buy).  Probably totally off-base, but it allows me to
nominate the elegant "forebuy" as a replacement:  "I forebought that
pickup."   Well, mebbe not.

L


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 13 01:48:02 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 21:48:02 EDT
Subject: Sam Levenson's Yiddish Glossary (1951 or 1946)
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.214802.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MEET THE FOLKS:
A SESSION OF AMERICAN-JEWISH HUMOR
with Sammy Levenson
New York: The Citadel Press
1951
(The book was issued in 1946; 1951 may just be the sixth printing.  Check LOC
records.  This adds to several other Yiddish word lists that I've added to
the ADS-L archives, such as KOSHER-AMERICANS--ed.)

Pg. 110:
      FAMILY LIFE
   HOME, SWEET HOME
DIE BUBBEH  A pensioned-off baby-sitter
DER ZADEH  Grandchild's press agent
MISHPOCHEH  Foreign Relations Committee
DER M'CHOOTEN  The leader of the opposition
AN AIDIM  An additional name on the letter box
A KOLLEH MOID  A juvenile delinquent
GOLDENEH CHASSENEH  See _finstereh yor_, then multiply by 50
A GRUBBER YOONG  Roughly speaking
A POTCH  Proven method for attracting a child's attention
AN ALTEH MACHASHAIFEH  A woman one year older than your wife
A TSVILLING  Double or nothing
A KOONTS  Quintuplets
ONGEBLOZZEN  Young father who wanted a boy...
TSORRES  Something you get from children
NOCHES  Something you get from grandchildren
A VANNEH  Softening-up process
A TOOMEL  A birthday party
A KOCHLEFFEL  The next door neighbor
GEDULT  Feeding the baby
(Pg. 111--ed.)
A PARTECH  Garment used by mothers to wipe babies' noses
A GLICK  Five daughters
NISHT GESHTOIGEN OON NISHT GEFLOIGEN  Louie's excuse for playing hookey
   FOR THE LADIES
RYSEN DIE FLAISH  Getting a manicure
DANKEN GUT!  Diaper service
GIB ZICH A SHOCKEL  Rumba lesson
SAICHEL  Something you need besides money to catch a husband
KOM DERLEBT  Collecting on life insurance
A VATIG  Reducing exercises
BRATER VIE LAINGER  An old girdle
A GRAISEH MITZIEH  A daughter-in-law
A HARTZ VATIG  The lady next door buys the same hat
AY, GOOT!  Taking off a pair of new shoes
A SHLIMOZZEL  A woman who is allergic to fur
FARDINEN A MITZVEH  Laughing at your husband's jokes
   FOR MEN ONLY
A SHVIGGER  John's other wife
A CHOLEM  Visit from Betty Grable
A LIVONEH  A bald head
VOS HOB ICH DOS GEDARFT?  Marriage
A BUBBEH MEISEH  21 plus
(Pg. 112--ed.)
BORVESS  Informal
A NISHGOOTNICK  A hen-pecked husband on his night off
NADAN  Matri-Money
A KITSEL  A sign of paternal affection (up to age 16)
HELFEN VIE A TAITEN BAHNKES  Hair tonic
   PLEASE OBLIGE
FARDREY ZICH DEIN KOP!  Go and get a hair-do!
NEM ZICH A VANNEH!  Go jump in the lake!
A SHANEH, RAINEH, KAPORREH!  A sterilized curse
BRECH A FOOS!  Last words of a losing argument
VER DERHARGET!  Greeting to a man who steps on your corn
Pg. 113:
      FOODS
Pg. 114:  What better lunch for a school child than cold _koogle_ from the
previous night with a crust that looked like the scales of a prehistoric
mammal, with (Pg. 115--ed.) a side dish of yesterday's _tsimmes_ and a seeded
roll oozing _hock-flaish_ in all directions.  For dessert, a penny for a
"twist" and back to school raring to go--to sleep. (...)
   Soup could offer a variety of surprises--_kreplach_ (meat balls with sport
jackets), exquisitely shaped (Pg. 116--ed.) by the sculptural genius of a
_balabusteh_, who always planned the structure of the _kreple_ so that a
tempting bit of the buried treasure should show through, just enough to make
the mouth water.
   Or soup might contain _lokshen_, which hung like weeping willows over the
_flaishigeh leffel_.  The excess _lokshen_ could either be sucked into the mo
uth or bitten into.
   What better contribution to _fressen_ have we given the world than the
incomparable _kishkeh_ (sections of fire hose)?  They tell me my _zadeh_
stuffed his own _kishkeh_ with cow's _kishkeh_ to the age of 94.  He carried
around a permanent heartburn which kept his body warm and protected him from
the severe Russian winters.
(Pg. 117--ed.)
   MAN DOES NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE
CHICKEN ZOOP  Oil on troubled waters (Not "Jewish penicillin"?--ed.)
MEIN BUBBEH'S TOM  Pickled herring at McGuinness'
SHMALTZ  Liquid heartburn
KREPLACH  The eternal triangle
RETACH  Repeat performance
SHNAPPS  Jewish anti-freeze
SMETENEH  Cold cream
A LEK OON A SHMECK  Hors d'oeuvres
ZAMD  Spinach
LOX  A fish used to wake the family on Sunday A.M.
LOX'N BAGEL  Romeo and Juliet
SCHAV  The Green Pastures
KASHEH, KOOGLE, KNISHES, KNADEL, KREPLACH  The Jewish "K" rations
FARSHIMELT  Penicillin
TSIMMES  14-carrot stew
KASHEH  The Jewish version of Serutan
BAGEL  Has no meaning by itself.  _See_ LOX'N BAGEL
GEHAKTEH TSORRES  A five-cent hamburger
A FINE-KOCHEN  Edible ping-pong balls
YOACH  Liquid lead
KNUBBLE  A breath-taking vitamin
GRIBBENES  Jewish popcorn
GESHVOLLEN  Bubble gum
VOORSHT  The K'Nobel prize
A GLEZEL TAY  The pause that refreshes
HOCK FLAISH  Blood and sand
(Pg. 118--ed.)
      CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS
KISHKEH  Wedding ring
KOSHER  A restaurant that serves no butter with meat meals
(Pg. 119--ed.)
STRICTLY KOSHER  A restaurant that serves no butter even with dairy meals
MATZOH  Temporary filling for cavities
SHMECK TAHBICK  Marijuana
A SHYLEH  The 64-dollar question
YONTEFDIK  Tight shoes
A SHABBES GOY  A pilot light
A POOSHKEH  A Jewish piggy bank
BET-GEVANT  Fire-escape decorations
VUNTSEN  Yer fodder's moustache
SHADCHEN  Jewish Manpower Commission
A SHOFER  An ill wood-wind that nobody blows good
A SUKKOH  A Quonset hut
A SHANEH GELECHTER  Getting hiccups on Yom Kippur
HERRING A fish with a useless head and tail
A LOTTEH  Square in the pants
BLINTZES  Dairy sleeping bags
A SCHMOOZ  A local call
(Pg. 120--ed.)
      AY, GOOT!
      OY, SCHLECHT!
   (...)  The KRECHTS may mean any of the following in any order:
NO MAIL TODAY!
THIS YOUNGER GENERATION!
SUCH RADISHES!
LOVE IS A BEAUTIFUL THING!
MY FEET BURN LIKE FIRE!
THE LAUNDRY RUINS EVERYTHING!
THOSE GUYS IN WASHINGTON!
WAS THAT A BEAUTIFUL FUNERAL!
THE DOCTOR SAYS I'LL BE ALL RIGHT
REMEMBERING WHOM YOU COULD HAVE MARRIED!
COMMENT ON THE MAID'S WORK
(Pg. 121--ed.)
HOW'S BUSINESS?
LETTER FROM THE BUREAU OF INTERNAL REVENUE
A NEW SET OF UPPERS
WE INTERRUPT THIS PROGRAM TO BRING YOU A SPECIAL NEWS BULLETIN...
   AY, GOOT! _or_ IT SHOULD HAPPEN TO ME!
A FARGENIGEN  Front row at the follies
A SIMCHEH  Wasserman negative
SHTAIN REICH  An expensive tombstone
GENOOG IZ GENOOG  And in conclusion...
A MACHAYEH  Seltzer water
KOVED  Allowing the other guy to pay the check
GESHMOK  Sleeping  a the movies
MOCH'N A GVALD  Winning at Bingo
A HAISEH VANNEH  Southern comfort
A SHTICK NOCHES  Finding a nickel in a phone booth
A SHTICK NAHR  The dope who puts it back

   OY!  SCHLECHT! _or_ IT SHOULD HAPPEN TO A DOG!
A LIVAYEH  Moving to the suburbs
GOT VAISS  I'll see you tomorrow if I'll live
A FARSHLEPTEH KRENK  A boat ride up the Hudson
KALT  The tenant's radiator
VARIM  The landlord's thermostat
OLAV HASHOLEM  Signing off
A ZIFTS  Exhale
(Pg. 122--ed.)
CHROPPEN  SHort wave
A FROSK  Shock treatment
A KVITCH  Opening of a mystery drama
A TSOOCHEPENESH  A trailer
FOLG MIR A GONG  Is this trip necessary?
HAYZERIG  A portable radio
BOACH VATIG  Something you get because you ate something that Momma told you
not to eat
A KOP VATIG  How much to tip the waiter
A FINSTEREH SOHF  Falling into a manhole
A FARDROSS  Throwing in a penny and getting no gum
(Pg. 123--ed.)
      COMMERCE
(...)  proffet, interres, benk, mugetch, lendler, discont, zex protsent,
checkbooch, risit, co-maker, and dropp-debt!
(Pg. 124--ed.)
BILLIG  A pre-war word meaning "cheap."  Has dropped out of both Yiddish and
English.
SHLECHT  Advertising for a partner
A CHOCHMEH  Sending a lawyer-letter to a creditor, and getting a
lawyer-letter in return
A GANTSEH M'GILEH  Income tax, simplified form
A SHVITZ BUD  Mechanism for putting through telephone calls
OHS SHIDDECH  Give me back my deposit!
NEBECH  In the 80% income tax bracket
A BUBBEH MEISEH  Money refunded cheerfully
BALABOSS  A man who can work 16 hours a day if he wants to
(Pg. 125--ed.)
      CHARACTERS
   ...the NUDNIK, the SCHNORRER, the LITVAK, etc.
(Pg. 126--ed.)
A GONTSER K'NOCKER  A man who does crossword puzzles with a fountain pen
A SHNORRER  The guy who insists you pay him the money you owe him
A FUNFENYIK  A nudnik with sinus trouble added
A NUDNICK  An authority on your subject
A SHTARKER CHORKTER  A guy who can eat just one salted peanut
A PISK  A tobacco auctioneer
A SHLOCK  A woman who is her own mother-in-law
A MIYESKITE  A very educated girl
GALITSIANER AND LITVAK  An interfaith meeting
A SHICKER  On a liquid diet
MOISHE KAPOYER  A man who forgetrs his own towel in a hotel
A KOBTSEN  A Civil Service worker
A SIDDER  One who watches babies
A YENTEH  A "news commentator" without a sponsor
KOOM ICH NISHT HEINT, KOOM ICH MORGEN  The new maid
MISHMOOGEH AHF TATE  A vegetarian with heartburn
DER MALECH HAMUVESS  A motorcycle policeman
A CHOZZER  A pig who eats like a horse
A VILDER MENTCH  A litvak with a herring
A GROBBER YOONG  A baseball umpire
A BAZEH CHAYEH  A bus driver
FARBLUNDJET  A kosher butcher in Scarsdale


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Jun 13 02:21:42 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 21:21:42 -0500
Subject: pre-purchased
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.212142.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On an almost related note, the signs outside the restrooms at our Target store caution against taking 'unpaid merchandise' into them. I always wanted them to say 'unpurchased' (though 'unboughten' would also be fun).


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 13 03:31:37 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 23:31:37 EDT
Subject: Goyim, Pallone, Commedia dell' arte, Scenario (1768)
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.233137.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

AN ACCOUNT OF THE MANNERS AND CUSTOMS OF ITALY
by Joseph Baretti
London: T. Davies
in two volumes
1768

   OED cites this work three times (orgeat, tarrocco, and slingsman).  The
title is different and different dates are also given (1768 and 1769).  Beats
me who does this stuff.

VOLUME ONE
Pg. 172:  ..._commedie dell' arte_ (a cant name for those burleque plays
substituted to the _commedie antiche_)...
(OED has 1877 for "commedie dell arte," which is here several times--ed.)

Pg. 174:  ..._scenario_ (so this kind of dramatic skeleton is called)...
(OED has 1878 for "scenario"--ed.)

Pg. 178:  ..which brought about the formation of those musical drama's now
called _opera's_ when they are serious, and _opera buffa's_, or _burletta's_,
when they are burlesque.
(OED has 1802 for "opera buffa"--ed.)

Pg. 180:  As for our _opera buffa's_ or _burletta's_, though we have a
multitude of them, yet no one is worth reading.

Pg. 180:  They invented likewise two other drama's, one called (Pg. 181--ed.)
_commedie pastorali_, _pastoral plays_, the other _commedie rustiche_,
_rustic plays_.

Pg. 199:  ..._cinquecentisti_*...
*THe Italians give this collective name to the learned who flourished in the
sixteenth century, or they call _Trecentisti_, _Quattrocentisti_, and
_Secentisti_, those who flourished in the fourteenth, fifteenth, and
sixteenth centuries.
(OED has all these terms, from about 1832, 1841, 1871, and 1875.  Put an
asterisk and leave off the ending--ed.)

Pg. 216:  These _serenatas_, as we call them...
(OED has 1743, then 1834--ed.)

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 105:  Yet this is no hardship on them, because they never voluntarily mix
with the _Gohims_, as they (Jews--ed.) call us, and superstitiously abhor all
food that is not dressed by cooks of their own persuasion.
(OED has 1841 for "goyim," under "goy"--ed.)

Pg. 174:  ...their common custom of _improvvisare_; that is, of singing
verses extempore to the guitar and other stringed instruments.
(There's a long explanation here.  OED has 1786 for "improvisation"--ed.)

Pg. 192:  As to the generality of our peasants and lower sort of people, they
breakfast on _polenta_, which is a sort of pudding made with the flower of
turkey-corn, on which while it is hot they spread some fresh butter, with the
addition of some walnuts or a slice of cheese, if they can afford it.

Pg. 195:  A common dinner begins with what is called in England a French
soup, and still oftener with a mess either of rice, of macaroni's, or of
legumes: then follow the boiled meats; then the roasted; and last the cheese
and fruit: nor is it customary to dine but in this order.

Pg. 206:  ...vandyke dress...
(OED has 1755, then 1769 under "vandyke"--ed.)

Pg. 207:  ...the Genoese _mestro_, and the divers sorts of _zendudo's_, or
head-dresses and veils.
(OED has 1789 for "zendale"--ed.)

Pg. 233:  ..._Pallone_.  A Pallone is a leather-ball filled with air, and
about as big as a man's head.
(OED has 1873 for "pallone"--ed.)

Pg. 252:  _alla moda_  (_fashionable_)...


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 13 04:24:30 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 00:24:30 EDT
Subject: Hoop and the Harm
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.002430.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Did I say Nets in four?  I meant LAKERS in four...Nothing like seeing your
team mauled by an 800-pound monster.
   When a basket is made, plus the shooter is fouled and goes to the line,
Marv Albert says "YESSSS!  AND IT COUNTS!"  However, I've heard and
web-checked this, which should be recorded:

hoop and the harm
hoop and some harm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 13 06:47:35 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 02:47:35 EDT
Subject: Pennies from heaven; Macher (1928)
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.024735.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE GHETTO MESSENGER
by Abraham Burstein
New York:  Bloch Publishing
1928

   Might as well add a few more antedate while I do the laundry...The OED is
"not responding" now, so I'll go blind on "macher."

Pg. 1:  WHY THERE ARE SO MANY COHENS.

Pg. 65:  ANd my whole mishpocha are doing the same thing.

Pg. 91:  The gentleman, being cognizant of "pennies falling from heaven" and
other tricks of clever m'lamdim, appeared to take it seriously, but later
laughingly related the incident to his wife.
(OED has 1936, from the "pennies for heaven" song title, but it now appears
to pre-date the Depression--ed.)

Pg. 176:  "He's a Litvak!  I don't want him!"

Pg. 301:
   GLOSSARY
(Not much exciting in the following, but the RHHDAS has "macher" from
1930--ed.)
Baale-Batim, men of property and prominence.
Baal ha-Bais, singular of above.
Baal Kreah, synagogue reader.
Baal T'filloh, reciter of prayers
Bar Mitzvah, a youth mature in the Law; confirmation.
Beth Din, rabbinic court.
Bimah, pulpit.
Brith, circumcision rite.
Chassid, man of great piety.
Chazan, cantor.
Chazir, pig.
Cheder, Hebrew School.
Cohen, Cohanim--priests, descendants of Aaron.
Erev Yom Tov, day before a holiday.
Fromm, pious, observant.
Gett, Jewish divorce.
Goy, Goyim, Gentile.
Goyishkeit, irreligion.
Jahrzeit, death anniversary.
Kaddish, memorial prayer.
Ma'alos, virtues.
Maariv, evening prayer.
Macher, important personage.
Mattanah, gift.
Mazel Tov, good luck.
Mesheberach, prayer for one called to the reading of the Law, generally
coupled with a donation to the synagogue.
(Pg. 302--ed.)
Mezuza, Mezuzoth, ceremonial object on doorpost of Jewish home.
Midrashim, collected legends.
Mincha, afternoon prayer.
Mishnah, primary portion of the Talmud.
Paskudzver, filthy one.
Rebbetzin, rabbi's wife.
Schnapps, whiskey.
Shabbos, Sabbath.
Shalom, peace-greeting.
Shammos, sexton.
Sheitel, wig.
Shlishi, third reader of the Law.
Shul, synagogue.
Tallis, Talethim, prayer shawl.
Talmid Chochom, man of learning.
T'phillin, phylacteries.
Tzusammen, together.
Yichus, high birth.
Yid, Jew.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Jun 13 11:12:18 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 07:12:18 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <p04320409b92da0c636d6@[130.132.245.162]>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.071218.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Alas! All those forebought Nets-Lakers tickets are worthless.

dInIs

>At 6:46 PM -0400 6/12/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>But, on-topic, I don't find making the distinction between stuff you
>>paid for and ain't got yet and stuff you paid for and done got
>>useless, and I think Bethany meant for "prepaid" to be the slightly
>>less fancy synonym of "prepurchased."
>
>ah, if they ARE synonyms.  (See previous note.)
>
>>
>>Could we have some lexical semantic explanation (unless, as is so
>>often the case, it is something lurking in the phonology) of why they
>>both sound real good to me and "prebought" sounds awful.
>>
>
>well, it may be just the Latinate vs. native vocabulary distinction.
>Pre- for Latin stems (pre-pay, pre-purchase) but not for Germanic
>ones (*pre-buy).  Probably totally off-base, but it allows me to
>nominate the elegant "forebuy" as a replacement:  "I forebought that
>pickup."   Well, mebbe not.
>
>L

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Thu Jun 13 11:55:06 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 07:55:06 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <p04320408b92d9ee7c629@[130.132.245.162]>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.075506.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

|o| Of course you'd need a non-goofy little word to go with "pre-pay" as
|o| opposed to "pre-purchase":  You could pre-purchase the yearbook or
|o| pre-pay *for* the yearbook but not vice versa.

I agree.  While pre-purchased falls into the same over-the-top category as
previously owned Mercedes Benz, pre-paid has specific utility and meaning.

In most business connotations, pre-paid carries the meaning of assured
delivery of a scarce resource.  While there may be a quantity of extra
yearbooks sent with the pre-paid yearbooks, the extras are sent on spec and
in a quantity that may not satisfy demand at the end of the year.

The word ordered falls short because it does not always carry the meaning of
paid in advance.


rhk


From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Thu Jun 13 12:11:09 2002
From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:11:09 -0400
Subject: Huh?
In-Reply-To: <NJEFLDNDEIDMAKCHIMJGIEHDCFAA.rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.081109.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From a recent memo:

We regret both the short fuse and burdening you with another data call,
however findings and recommendations to xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  must be made at
the end of June.  Your input is much needed in order to provide a claimancy
azimuth representation.

Last sentence interpreted: if we don't complain now, we'll have no right to
bitch later.

rhk


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Jun 13 12:18:34 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:18:34 +0100
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b92d7eb77337@[35.12.20.194]>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.131834.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInIs,

> Have you learned to eat yearbooks in Sussex?

Didn't  you know that 'yearbook' is Sussex English for a ciabatta with
mozzarella, tomato, basil and olives?  Unless it's warm, in which case it's
called an 'almanac'.

If you're gullible, ignore this.
Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 13 13:13:41 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 06:13:41 -0700
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <sd074da5.080@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.061341.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The item has been purchased - paid for - but delivery
is at a future promised date.  To me pre-purchase
indicates the item might not even exist at the time of
pre-purchase but is to be made based on hard cash in
advance rather than good faith - the same for
services, cash in advance.  The printer might run a
few extra copies in anticipation of late purchases,
but perhaps yearbooks not pre-purchased will require a
second, custom printing run and will incur additional
charges, or they might not be available at all.



--- FRITZ JUENGLING
<juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US> wrote:
> Here is a note from our person in charge of student
> 'stuff' at our high school:
>
> All students who pre-purchased a yearbook will have
> theirs delivered directly to their homes from the
> yearbook company.   Last chance to get your yearbook
> inserts today after school, for those who have
> already purchased yearbooks.
>
> Any comments on 'pre-purchased'?  Why not just
> 'purchased' ?  Of course, I understand it, but it
> looks and sounds very odd to me, especially since
> she switched to 'already purchased' late rin the
> message.
> Fritz


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Jun 13 13:24:10 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:24:10 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <36374091.3232963114@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.092410.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Lynne,

And the one served on peasant bread is a 'farmer's almanac'?

dInIs

>dInIs,
>
>>Have you learned to eat yearbooks in Sussex?
>
>Didn't  you know that 'yearbook' is Sussex English for a ciabatta with
>mozzarella, tomato, basil and olives?  Unless it's warm, in which case it's
>called an 'almanac'.
>
>If you're gullible, ignore this.
>Lynne
>
>
>Dr M Lynne Murphy
>Lecturer in Linguistics
>Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
>School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
>University of Sussex
>Brighton BN1 9QH
>UK
>
>phone +44-(0)1273-678844
>fax   +44-(0)1273-671320

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Jun 13 13:32:15 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:32:15 +0100
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b92e4d2f8636@[35.10.92.197]>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.143215.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Thursday, June 13, 2002 9:24 am -0400 "Dennis R. Preston"
<preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU> wrote:

> Lynne,
>
> And the one served on peasant bread is a 'farmer's almanac'?

You got it.


But as long as we're being silly and off-topic here, I read the following
in _The Big Issue_ today about a pea-shooting contest in Cambridgeshire:

"It's traditional Bash Street Kids, English schoolboy, turn your baseball
cap backwards and fire kind of thing," said organiser Tom Wood.

I didn't know traditional English schoolboys played baseball....

Lynne





Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From john at FENIKS.COM  Thu Jun 13 14:10:25 2002
From: john at FENIKS.COM (John Blower)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:10:25 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <36639974.3232967535@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.101025.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 02:32 PM 6/13/02 +0100, you wrote:



>I didn't know traditional English schoolboys played baseball....

It's called "rounders".






Cheers!

John Blower/FeNiKs Business Communications
795 Mammoth Rd, #23, Manchester, NH 03104
V: 603 668 5601         F: 707 220 7490
Trainer at Large/Ace Copywriter
http://www.feniks.com/  mailto:john at feniks.com

From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Jun 13 14:13:51 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:13:51 +0100
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020613100944.00a8aaf0@mail.feniks.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.151351.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Thursday, June 13, 2002 10:10 am -0400 John Blower <john at FENIKS.COM>
wrote:

> At 02:32 PM 6/13/02 +0100, you wrote:
>
>
>
>> I didn't know traditional English schoolboys played baseball....
>
> It's called "rounders".
>

Well, not exactly the same thing
(see  http://rounders.punters.co.uk/rules.html)
and no one ever talks about wearing their rounders caps backwards!

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 13 14:18:34 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:18:34 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.101834.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002  9:32:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Lynne Murphy <lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK> writes:

>But as long as we're being silly and off-topic here, I read the following
>in _The Big Issue_ today about a pea-shooting contest in Cambridgeshire:
>
>"It's traditional Bash Street Kids, English schoolboy, turn your baseball
>cap backwards and fire kind of thing," said organiser Tom Wood.
>
>I didn't know traditional English schoolboys played baseball....
>
>Lynne

There is no implication that the English schoolboys play baseball, merely that they wear baseball caps, which leads to a serious question in non-verbal linguistics:

In England, what does a man or boy communicate by wearing a baseball cap?

In the English film "A Fish Named Wanda", there is one major character who is American, who is invariably shown wearing a baseball cap.  Is this an English stereotype of how Americans dress?  If so, was it a shorthand convention to inform an English audience that the character was American?

Also what is the significance of an English boy turning his baseball cap around?  (Girls cannot do this.  Their ponytails stick out through the gap between the cloth and the adjustment band.)

      - Jim Landau

P.S.  This being England, shouldn't that read "pease-shooting"?  As in "give pease a chance?"


From john at FENIKS.COM  Thu Jun 13 14:22:46 2002
From: john at FENIKS.COM (John Blower)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:22:46 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <5A306187.46743A65.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.102246.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:18 AM 6/13/02 -0400, you wrote:


>P.S.  This being England, shouldn't that read "pease-shooting"?  As in
>"give pease a chance?"

Or "Visualize Whirled Peas(e)"?




Cheers!

John Blower/FeNiKs Business Communications
795 Mammoth Rd, #23, Manchester, NH 03104
V: 603 668 5601         F: 707 220 7490
Trainer at Large/Ace Copywriter
http://www.feniks.com/  mailto:john at feniks.com

From john at FENIKS.COM  Thu Jun 13 14:27:01 2002
From: john at FENIKS.COM (John Blower)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:27:01 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <36790107.3232970031@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.102701.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:13 PM 6/13/02 +0100, you wrote:


>Well, not exactly the same thing
>(see  http://rounders.punters.co.uk/rules.html)
>and no one ever talks about wearing their rounders caps backwards!

But to the untutored eye...

We played rounders in primary school. In secondary school we graduated to
rugby (union) in the winter and cricket in the summer.








John Blower
Trainer, Editor, Copywriter
The Thatched Barn, Church Farm
Sunningwell, Oxon OX13 6RD, UK
http://www.feniks.com
mailto:john at feniks.com

From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Jun 13 14:28:23 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:28:23 +0100
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <5A306187.46743A65.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.152823.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Thursday, June 13, 2002 10:18 am -0400 "James A. Landau"
<JJJRLandau at AOL.COM> wrote:

>>
>> I didn't know traditional English schoolboys played baseball....
>>
>> Lynne
>
> There is no implication that the English schoolboys play baseball, merely
> that they wear baseball caps,

Point taken, but I didn't know that baseball caps were traditional UK
schoolboy attire.  Billed caps, perhaps, but 'baseball' caps?

>  which leads to a serious question in
> non-verbal linguistics:
> In England, what does a man or boy communicate by wearing a baseball cap?
>
> In the English film "A Fish Named Wanda", there is one major character
> who is American, who is invariably shown wearing a baseball cap.  Is this
> an English stereotype of how Americans dress?

Yes, definitely.  And it's amazing how reliable it is.  The US exchange
students seem to stop wearing theirs (and their frat/sorority sweatshirts)
within about a month.

> If so, was it a shorthand
> convention to inform an English audience that the character was American?

And probably a certain kind of American.  i.e. not the Andie McDowell in
_Four Weddings and a Funeral_ kind of American.


> Also what is the significance of an English boy turning his baseball cap
> around?  (Girls cannot do this.  Their ponytails stick out through the
> gap between the cloth and the adjustment band.)

What I don't understand is why you'd want to turn it around (or 'turn it
rouind', to talk like a local) if you're going to need to aim at something
and therefore keep the sun out of your eyes.  Oh, except that this is
England.  I'm wearing wool in the middle of June and it's been raining for
two weeks.  Ok, to keep the glare from the clouds out of your eyes.


> P.S.  This being England, shouldn't that read "pease-shooting"?  As in
> "give pease a chance?"

There's a village near Gatwick named Pease Pottage, and I can't ride by it
without thinking "Pease Pottage hot, Pease Pottage cold".  Btw, Bill
Bryson's _Notes from a Small Island_ has a nice appreciation of weird UK
placenames.

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Jun 13 14:29:12 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:29:12 +0100
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020613102259.009f2af0@mail.feniks.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.152912.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Thursday, June 13, 2002 10:27 am -0400 John Blower <john at FENIKS.COM>
wrote:

> At 03:13 PM 6/13/02 +0100, you wrote:
>
>
>> Well, not exactly the same thing
>> (see  http://rounders.punters.co.uk/rules.html)
>> and no one ever talks about wearing their rounders caps backwards!
>
> But to the untutored eye...

I dunno--the difference between bowling and pitching is pretty distinct,
I'd say...


tata,
Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Jun 13 14:56:36 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:56:36 -0400
Subject: still silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <5A306187.46743A65.0AC70481@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.105636.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jim,

Yes, I suspect this baseball-cap wearing is US in British eyes,
although its symbolism may have changed from "typical American" (as
in the Wandafishflick) to implications of hip-hop culture. Before
that latter development, the redoubtable Prof. Trudgill went around
annoying us Yanks by asking:
Q: "What do you do to make a yank drop 50 degrees of intelligence?"
A: Turn his baseball cap around backwards.

Of course, I may have the numbers wrong.

dInIs



>In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002  9:32:35 AM Eastern Daylight
>Time, Lynne Murphy <lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK> writes:
>
>>But as long as we're being silly and off-topic here, I read the following
>>in _The Big Issue_ today about a pea-shooting contest in Cambridgeshire:
>>
>>"It's traditional Bash Street Kids, English schoolboy, turn your baseball
>>cap backwards and fire kind of thing," said organiser Tom Wood.
>>
>>I didn't know traditional English schoolboys played baseball....
>>
>>Lynne
>
>There is no implication that the English schoolboys play baseball,
>merely that they wear baseball caps, which leads to a serious
>question in non-verbal linguistics:
>
>In England, what does a man or boy communicate by wearing a baseball cap?
>
>In the English film "A Fish Named Wanda", there is one major
>character who is American, who is invariably shown wearing a
>baseball cap.  Is this an English stereotype of how Americans dress?
>If so, was it a shorthand convention to inform an English audience
>that the character was American?
>
>Also what is the significance of an English boy turning his baseball
>cap around?  (Girls cannot do this.  Their ponytails stick out
>through the gap between the cloth and the adjustment band.)
>
>       - Jim Landau
>
>P.S.  This being England, shouldn't that read "pease-shooting"?  As
>in "give pease a chance?"

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From john at FENIKS.COM  Thu Jun 13 14:49:01 2002
From: john at FENIKS.COM (John Blower)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:49:01 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <36845489.3232970952@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.104901.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:29 PM 6/13/02 +0100, you wrote:



>I dunno--the difference between bowling and pitching is pretty distinct,
>I'd say...

Rounders "bowling" is like softball pitching, not the fully-fledged Wes
Hall number I remember from my youth.

So perhaps rounders should be equated with softball (less the caps, worn
forwards or backwards).

Cricketers, on the other hand, used to wear caps almost universally, but
ordinary "peaked" caps, as opposed to baseball caps. This, of course, was
when cricketers were required to wear white clothes...




John Blower
Trainer, Editor, Copywriter
The Thatched Barn, Church Farm
Sunningwell, Oxon OX13 6RD, UK
http://www.feniks.com
mailto:john at feniks.com

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 13 16:46:40 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:46:40 EDT
Subject: "Precrime" and Speilberg movie
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.124640.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED does not list "precrime" anywhere.  It's a hot word right now, and
this is from today's Drudge Report:


XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX THURSDAY JUNE 13, 2002 11:09:24 ET XXXX


SPIELBERG SIDES WITH BUSH ON FBI PRECRIME; DREAMWORKS EXEC CALLS ASHCROFT
'SCARY'

**Exclusive**

The DREAMWORKSFOX production MINORITY REPORT depicts a future where you can
be charged for future crimes you haven't yet committed.

"The guilty are arrested before the law is broken," warns a heavy-rotation TV
advert for the film, subtly placed during national and local news programs
this week reporting the United States has detained, indefinitely, but has not
criminally charged Jose Padilla for allegedly <A HREF="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20020613/ts_usatoday/4190019&printer=1">preparing a plan</A> to commit
terror.
(...)

"We set the clock [in the movie] in the 2050s, but it looks like we are
already there," claimed the top DREAMWORKS executive. "Please let him say he
is creating a Department of Precrime!"

As a new GALLUP <A HREF="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020611/ap_wo_en_po/us_terrorism_poll_3">poll shows 4 out of 5</A> Americans willing to give up some
freedom for more security Spielberg and associates have launched the movie
website tie-in <A HREF="http://www.precrime.org/">precrime.org</A> -- which includes a dramatic public service
announcement mocking a "future" government's attempt to "prevent" crimes.


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun 13 16:57:14 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:57:14 -0400
Subject: Purdue in November
In-Reply-To: <14d.f35c8ca.2a3a2670@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.125714.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Apologies for this lame email, but I honestly did try to find the
information in places I might have expected to find it, and I'm hoping
someone here is so familiar with the topic that they instantly can
answer...

Anyhoo, in my  mental calendar there is a linguistic and/or
lexicographical conference of interest in November at Purdue in West
Lafayette. (This is not the corpus/teaching conference at
Purdue-Indianapolis in November.)

Does anyone have a clue what conference I'm thinking about?

Much obliged.

-- Steve


From jbarrett at TARLETON.EDU  Thu Jun 13 17:26:26 2002
From: jbarrett at TARLETON.EDU (Jeanelle Barrett)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:26:26 -0500
Subject: Purdue in November
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0206131254090.16398-100000@panix1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.122626.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's a second language writing symposium
in October, could that be the one you're thinking about?
URL for the original Linguist List post follows:

http://www.linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-3038.html#1

Cheers,
Jeanelle (Purdue grad)

At 12:57 PM 6/13/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Apologies for this lame email, but I honestly did try to find the
>information in places I might have expected to find it, and I'm hoping
>someone here is so familiar with the topic that they instantly can
>answer...
>
>Anyhoo, in my  mental calendar there is a linguistic and/or
>lexicographical conference of interest in November at Purdue in West
>Lafayette. (This is not the corpus/teaching conference at
>Purdue-Indianapolis in November.)
>
>Does anyone have a clue what conference I'm thinking about?
>
>Much obliged.
>
>-- Steve

********************
Dr. Jeanelle Barrett
Assistant Professor of English
Coordinator, Graduate Program in English
Department of English and Languages
Tarleton State University
P.O. Box T-0300
Stephenville, Texas  76402
Office: 254-968-9319
Fax:  254-968-9393


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Thu Jun 13 17:49:29 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:49:29 -0400
Subject: pre-purchased
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b92e2e6dcb00@[35.12.23.213]>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.134929.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

>Alas! All those forebought Nets-Lakers tickets are worthless.

That will teach you to foreplay - uh, forepay!

Bethany


From nerussel at MSN.COM  Thu Jun 13 18:22:02 2002
From: nerussel at MSN.COM (Nancy Russell)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:22:02 -0500
Subject: Please remove my name from the mailing list.
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.132202.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From: "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: pre-purchased
>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:49:29 -0400
>
>On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
> >Alas! All those forebought Nets-Lakers tickets are worthless.
>
>That will teach you to foreplay - uh, forepay!
>
>Bethany


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Thu Jun 13 21:23:05 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 17:23:05 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <36842572.3232970903@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.172305.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Lynne Murphy wrote:

#There's a village near Gatwick named Pease Pottage, and I can't ride by it
#without thinking "Pease Pottage hot, Pease Pottage cold".  Btw, Bill
#Bryson's _Notes from a Small Island_ has a nice appreciation of weird UK
#placenames.

See also _The Meaning of Liff_ and _The Greater[?] Meaning of Liff_, by
Douglas Adams (yes, of The Hitchhiker's trilogilogilogy) and someone
else. Liff is a UK placename. They provide definitions for these
funny-sounding placenames.

At least one of the books also includes some US placenames. I remember
my reaction to their definition of a Massachusetts one (fairly local to
me): "That's not funny-sounding at all."

All linguistic humor is local?

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large


From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU  Thu Jun 13 21:50:15 2002
From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:50:15 -0500
Subject: SCMLA Oct 30-Nov 1, 2003 - Hot Springs, Arkansas
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.165015.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I might like to participate.  I'm still working on my project on linguistic
fingerprinting--although it's in its early stages.  Statistical data might not
be complete, but the plan is outlined.  I could discuss cardinal and ordinal
indicators in prose.
Lesa Dill

"Bethany K. Dumas" wrote:

> I am planning to propose a Special Session on Linguistics Communities in
> the South Central Region for the Fall 2003 meeting of SCMLA in Hot
> Springs, Arkansas - please email me privately if you think you might be
> interested in participating.
>
> Thanks,
> Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 13 23:28:46 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:28:46 EDT
Subject: Homus, Taheny, Kafta, Kanafeh (1950)
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.192846.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GOING TO JERUSALEM
by WIllie Snow Ethridge
New York: Vanguard Press, Inc.
1950

   I didn't see "falafel" here, but I went through the book in about 100
second before the library closed.
   OED has 1955 for "hummus."  OED has 1950 for "tahine."  OED does not have
"kanafeh," but there are some Google hits for this (also, "kanafe").
"Sansbousick" and "baadounsia" and "seameh" must have other spellings.

Pg. 196:
   My favourite was _homus_, a thick paste made out of those little round,
yellow chick peas, mashed and mixed with _teheny_, the Arab name for the
second stage, or dregs, of sesame.  My second favourite, and here I promise
to stop, was _sansbousick_, a crescent-shaped pastry stuffed with highly
seasoned ground meat and fried in oil.  I must have eaten, conservatively
speaking, a dozen of these.

Pg. 197:
   But they did all right at lunch.  They went right htrough crisp, fried
eggplant spread with leban (sour milk); and broad beans cooked in their pods
with _seameh_ (another oil, derived I am sure, from sesame), and wonderful
rice, every grain separate and chock-full of nuts and raisins; and _kaftas_
(flattened meat balls), packed with minced parsley and onions and fried,
without a doubt, in oil; and a salad called _baadounsia_ which is chopped
parsley dressed with that second stage of sesame--_teheny_; and, for dessert,
_kanafeh_.
   Now this _kanafeh_ is something very specially Arab.  I saw it again and
again in the suks, but never tasted any that melted in the mouth like
Katie's.  For the roommate's sweet-tooth's sake I tried to learn how to make
it, but I must say Katie's directions were rather vague.
   "Take an enormous piepan," said she, "and sprinkle the bottom with a layer
of shredded wheat, then a layer of cheese, then another layer of shredded
wheat and so on until you get to the top, and then sprinkle the top with
roasted pine and pistachio nuts; and, finally, pour over the whole thing a
lot of melted sugar and put in the oven and bake.  Simple, see?"
   "Oh, sure," said I, and took another helping.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 14 01:10:25 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:10:25 EDT
Subject: Gravlax, Permis de sejour (1848)
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.211025.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE CZAR, HIS COURT AND PEOPLE
INCLUDING A TOUR IN NORWAY AND SEDEN
by John S. Maxwell
New York: Baker and Scribner
1848

   I didn't find a "smorgasbord," but there's still stuff here.

Pg. 25:  The bread furnished the traveller is made of rye, flavored with
aniseed.  Besides this, he is served with an abundant supply of oat-cake,
eggs, fresh trout, soup, potatoes, preserved cherries, and plenty of wild
mountain strawberries, cream, milk and butter.

Pg. 26:  The ordinary liquor of the country, a strong, fiery, but pure
spirit, is called _Finkel_.  It is distilled in every farm-house, from
potatoes, and is used the first thing in the morning and the last thing at
night.  It is taken in sickness and in health, and is the Norwegian panacea
for all the ills of life.
(I've seen "Finkel" before, but I can't seem to find it on OED or on the web.
 Spelling?--ed.)

Pg. 77:  A quantity of oatmeal flour, mixed and flavored with aniseed, is
baked in small thin biscuit-like cakes, called _knacken brod_.  This biscuit
is stored away and before the next semi-annual baking, becomes hard as stone,
and adapted only to the fine strong teeth of the peasantry.
   In the northern parts of Sweden Norway and Finland in periods of scarcity,
the inner rind of the fir-tree is taken out, dried, pulverized, and
manufactured into a kind of meal, which is mixed and kneaded with rye or
flour, and baked into bread.  Oatmeal porridge, salt fish, and meat cut into
thin slices and dried in the sun, with _graf lax_, or smoked salmon, and
_rost lax_, broiled salmon, constitute the principal articles of food of the
people in the interior of Sweden.
(OED has 1935 for "gravlax"--ed.)

Pg. 101:  ..._permis de sejour_...
(OED has 1884 for "permis de sejour."  I didn't realize it was an antedate or
I would have copied more--ed.)

Pg. 137:  ...which is known to every native urchin by the singular name of
"belly-gutters."
(Going down the hill on a sledge.  "Belly-gutter" is not in OED.  MOA?--ed.)

Pg. 157:  The week before Lent, which is the Russian carnival, is called
_maslianitza_, or butter week, because the eating of meat is prohibited,
while butter is used as a substitute.
(OED has 1763, then 1923 for "butter week."  "Maslanitza" is mentioned in
that entry, but is not a separate entry?--ed.)

Pg. 277:  Another kind called, from its peculiar form, the ziegel, or brick
tea, consisting of cakes, was sold to the amount of six thousand boxes. (...)
 The Tartars boil it with milk, into a kind of soup.
(OED has 1827, then 1853 for "brick tea."  "Ziegel" is not recorded
there--ed.)

Pg. 284:  The sterlet-soup is considered the greatest of all the luxuries of
the Russian table.
(OED has 1860 for "sterlet soup'?--ed.)

Pg. 329:  The comestibles generally consist of black bread, a soup made of
cabbage called _tsche_, a lump of suspicious-looking meat called _roti_, and
eggs that are universally bad.

Pg. 335:  ...taking us for _Milords Ingles_...


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 14 05:26:09 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 01:26:09 EDT
Subject: Falafel, Petah, Khoumus (1949)
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.012609.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ISRAEL DIARY
by Bernard M. Bloomfield
New York: Crown Publishers
1950

Pg. 20 (March 31st, 1949):  ...I bought a bagel* from a street vendor, who
displayed a pile of them on a stick.
*Doughnut-shaped bread with poppyseed sprinkled on it.

Pg. 20 (March 31st, 1949):  From this evolved various types of settlements,
differing in social organization and methods of work.  The most common of
these are:
(Pg. 21--ed.)
_Kvutzah_--a collective agricultural settlement in which land, buildings, and
all basic property are owned jointly.  The economic principal is that of one
large family.
_Kibbutz_--a collective farm in which the economy is based on industry as
well as agriculture.  Members of the group share a common treasury and draw
from it in accordance with their needs.
_Moshav_--a small-holders' settlement in which families have individual homes
and land but operate co-operatively in working their fields, purchasing, and
marketing.

Pg. 56 (April 8th, 1949):  Then we called for Moshe Abrahami at his office,
and on to lunch atr an Oriental restaurant where we had shaslik, kebab, Arab
bread (petah), vegetables, fruit salad and Turkish coffee.
   In Israel one gets an interesting assortment of European and Oriental
dishes.  The restaurants get preference in supplies and variety, for they
have to cater to visitors.  For the housewife, it is a lot tougher.  SHe is
rationed and must queue up for things.  Arab foods are quite different from
the diet we are accustomed to.  They serve a preparation called _khoumus_,
made of seeds and oil, paprika and spices, and also _t'khina_, a sort of
paste of lima beans, spiced and flavored.
   These dishes are placed in the center of the table.  One eats of them by
dipping a piece of petah (about the size and shape of a large, flat, round
bun, or very thick pancake), scooping some up and then plopping it down one's
throat.  This goes on, rather animatedly (depending on how hungry you are and
also on how many at the table are taking swipes at it!) until it is all gone.
 Then the next course appears--shaslik and kebab.  Shaslik are little meat
balls grilled on a metal spit about ten inches long, holding five or six
pieces.  These are scraped off the spit, by one's fork or knife, onto the
plate and the spit put aside.  These little balls are good and hard--or that
is, the ones I tasted were, and I suppose there is a certain way of getting
them as hard as possible.
   Kebab is made of small hunks of meat (the Arabs eat mostly lamb), also
grilled on a spit.  Then there are usually vegetables (Pg. 57--ed.) like
shredded lettuce and spring onions--depending on what happens to be in season
and available.  After the meat course, the inevitable Turkish coffee in small
cups, perhaps some fruit salad, and the meal comes to an abrupt end.

Pg. 58 (April 8th, 1949):  I must make some notations on the falafel which,
to Israel, is what the hot dog is to us.  This creation is really something.
We first discovered falafel while waiting for a bus outside a little street
kiosk on a corner in Haifa.  An eager customer approached and stolidly
intoned a single word, "falafel."  Immediately the proprietor went to work
before our startled eyes.  He first took a round, flat petah bread, about six
inches in diameter.  This he deftly cut across in half.  Then taking one of
the halves he made a pocket by opening the sides.  Into this he inserted,
with a pair of tongs, several golden brown balls about the size of walnuts,
which had been fried in oil.  The balls were made of chopped vegetables,
meal, and garlic.  Over these he put chopped lettuce or cabbage and over this
a liquid sauce, something like mayonnaise in color.  We noticed at this point
that the customer, who was taking in each detail of preparation with a
practiced eye, nodded his head in approval at the liberality of the amount of
sauce.  Then, reaching under the counter, the boss took out a little bottle
of oil, or dripping of some sort, and added a few drops on the finished
article, with the deftness and aplomb of a Swiss chef placing a cherry on the
top of a cream pie.  A paper napkin was placed under the falafel and handed
over to the customer, whose salivary glands by this time were working
furiously.  In payment, 50 mills (15 cents) were handed over.
   I asked the boss what it was he had just made and he told me it was a
falafel.
   "But what is falafel?" I asked.
(Pg. 59--ed.)
   He smiled.  "Here, taste this."  He gave me one of the little fried balls
which he took up with his tongs.  I tasted it.  It was spicy and not
unpleasant but left me more or less gastronomically unmoved.
   "Do you sell a lot of falafels?" I asked.
   "Oh sure.  All day long."
   At this point, another stolid intonation was heard behind us.  "Falafel."
   The boss immediately went into his routine.  He had just gotten to the
point where the drops of oil were to be applied, when our bus arrived and we
dashed off.
   Louis and I drove along speculating on the falafel and its origin, having
nothing more pressing to occupy our minds.
   "How did it originate?" we wondered.  "How did they come by the particular
combination of putting little fried balls in a half bun?  What brain
conceived such a dish?"  And then, once having become aware of the falafel's
existence, we noticed how, on all sides and at all times of the day, they
were being consumed by all sections of the population.  It appears that the
great "secret" lies in the preparation of the little balls and each dispenser
of falafels keeps his formula a dark secret, passing it on to a trustworthy
son, prior to his last gasp on earth.
   One becomes aware of falafels, if there is one within a radius of fifty
feet, by its characteristic aroma.  They're like olives.  You have to
cultivate a taste for them and having once done so, you are an addict.
_Savory falafel_!  If only some enterprising outfit would really take it up,
standardize and glofiy it like the hot dog!  We visualized factories
springing up and dotting the land, all busy producing falafel balls and
falafel juice.  Just think, they could can and bottle them, pack them in
export cases and ship them all over the world!
   As our bus rolled along, our imaginations soared to even greater heights,
and the following ideas developed: (1) That the Government create a Ministry
of Falafelach.  (2) That a chair be endowed at the Hebrew University on
Falafelology.
(Pg. 60--ed.)
(3) That a company be incorporated under Israeli laws called "National
Falafel Corporation Ltd." for manufacture, idestribution, and promotion of
the falafel.  (4) That the Weizmann Institute at Rehovoth immediately turn
its best brains loose on the problem of synthesizing the falafel.  (5) That a
National Falafel Day be proclaimed in Israel, as a legal holiday, culminating
in the election of "Miss Falafel."
(Miss Falafel?  With balls??...OED has 1951 for "felafel"--ed.)

Pg. 108 (April 21st, 1949):  Avram and I again got to "l'chaiming"* each
other, and all and sundry, with brandies.
*Toasting.

Pg. 171 (May 9th, 1949):  We returned to Tel Aviv early and went for a stroll
along the sea wall.  Baruch told us that there is a new variation to V.I.P.
(very important person).  It is V.I.P.I. (very important person indeed!).


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 14 16:28:07 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:28:07 EDT
Subject: silly and off-topic
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.122807.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/13/02 10:28:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK writes:

>  >  what is the significance of an English boy turning his baseball cap
>  > around?  (Girls cannot do this.  Their ponytails stick out through the
>  > gap between the cloth and the adjustment band.)
>
>  What I don't understand is why you'd want to turn it around (or 'turn it
>  rouind', to talk like a local) if you're going to need to aim at something
>  and therefore keep the sun out of your eyes.  Oh, except that this is
>  England.  I'm wearing wool in the middle of June and it's been raining for
>  two weeks.  Ok, to keep the glare from the clouds out of your eyes.

The catcher on a baseball team wears a face mask---and you better believe he
needs it!---which covers the forehead and temples.  Hence he cannot wear a
cap with a bill facing towards the front.  No, he does not go bareheaded; he
wears his baseball cap turned around so that the bill is in the back.

Hence to an American it is perfectly natural to see a baseball cap worn
backwards---it is the recognition point of a catcher.

For some reason unknown to me (fashion?  political statement?) it is common
nowadays for African-Americans to wear baseball caps catcher-style, with the
bill to the back.

We now have two contradictory statements from England:

"'It's traditional Bash Street Kids, English schoolboy, turn your baseball
cap backwards and fire kind of thing,' said organiser Tom Wood."

implying that wearing baseball caps backwards is as English as Bashing Street
Kids,  and

"the redoubtable Prof. Trudgill went around
annoying us Yanks by asking:
Q: "What do you do to make a yank drop 50 degrees of intelligence?"
A: Turn his baseball cap around backwards."

implying that the English view wearing a hat backwards as a sign of stupidity.

       - Jim Landau


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Jun 14 16:33:59 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:33:59 +0100
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <d6.17db36fa.2a3b7397@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.173359.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Friday, June 14, 2002 12:28 pm +0000 "James A. Landau"
<JJJRLandau at AOL.COM> wrote:

> We now have two contradictory statements from England:
>
> "'It's traditional Bash Street Kids, English schoolboy, turn your baseball
> cap backwards and fire kind of thing,' said organiser Tom Wood."
>
> implying that wearing baseball caps backwards is as English as Bashing
> Street Kids,  and
>
> "the redoubtable Prof. Trudgill went around
> annoying us Yanks by asking:
> Q: "What do you do to make a yank drop 50 degrees of intelligence?"
> A: Turn his baseball cap around backwards."
>
> implying that the English view wearing a hat backwards as a sign of
> stupidity.
>
>        - Jim Landau


Perhaps this leads to the conclusion that partaking in pea-shooting
contests is a sign of English stupidity, and that's why they turn their
hats backward(s) for it.

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Jun 14 16:58:04 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:58:04 -0400
Subject: etymythology for "Indian"?
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.125804.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Having just been guilty of passing on one or possibly two apparent
etymythologies (Framingham), I would like to atone by seeking expert
opinions on what I suspect of being another. This was just posted to
rec.music.filk:
        >>>>>

    Being part Chippewa myself (mother's side), I want to toss in a gripe at
the Politically Correct term "native American".  The name "Indians" did
NOT -- as your schoolteachers glibly misinformed you -- come from Columbus
mistaking American for India.  When Columbus sailed, the country we now call
India was then called Hindustan: its people were called Hindustani, its
language Hindi, its religion Hindu.  Furthermore, enough merchants had been
there and back that the average educated European knew that the country had
great wealth and a technology only a little behind Europe's.  When Columbus
landed (on the island of Hispaniola), he took one look at these
Stone-Age-tech people -- who were friendly, simple, pious, and as naked as
Adam and Eve in the Garden -- and knew damn well that this was not
Hindustan.  He assumed that this was an outlying island, and Hindustan was
only a little further over the horizon.  As for what to call these people,
all he could come up with (in his bad Italian version of Spanish) was: "Una
gente in Dios" -- literally, "a people in God", or "a Godly people".  The
Spanish adventurers shorted the name to the last two words: In Dios.  To
this day, the Spanish word for them is "Indios".  'Twas later English
speakers who altered "Indios" to "Indians".  Frankly, there are a lot worse
things to be called that "the Godly people" -- and a PC term based on
historical ignorance is one of them.

        <<<<<

This sounds very suspicious to me, as if someone had noticed that
"indios" could be split as "in Dios" and decided that the name had to
have arisen that way. Of course, people who accept this sort of
"obvious" explanation are not likely to be be dissuaded by expert
opinion, but I'd like to try.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Fri Jun 14 17:01:31 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:01:31 +0100
Subject: silly and off-topic
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.180131.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> implying that wearing baseball caps backwards is as English as Bashing
Street
> Kids,  and

No. For all the on-going UK media excitement in re paedophilia, this is not
part of it. In case anyone was wondering, the reference is to the 'Bash
Street Kids.' They are, I suppose, something along the lines of the Huntz
Hall/Leo Grocey 'Bowery Boys. Created by cartoonist Leo Baxendale in the
Beano Comic in 1954. They remain a fixture of young British life/culture.

Jonathon Green


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 14 17:08:28 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:08:28 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <42492678.3233064839@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.130828.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:33 PM +0100 6/14/02, Lynne Murphy wrote:
>
>Perhaps this leads to the conclusion that partaking in pea-shooting
>contests is a sign of English stupidity, and that's why they turn their
>hats backward(s) for it.

Not to mention partaking in pee-shooting contests, for which one
should turn one's hat inside-out, at the least.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Jun 14 17:01:23 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:01:23 -0700
Subject: etymythology for "Indian"?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206141249120.1739848-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.100123.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is from an old George Carlin routine. A funny man, but a lousy
etymologist. It's a chestnut, been floating around the internet for eons.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Mark A Mandel
> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 9:58 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: etymythology for "Indian"?
>
>
> Having just been guilty of passing on one or possibly two apparent
> etymythologies (Framingham), I would like to atone by seeking expert
> opinions on what I suspect of being another. This was just posted to
> rec.music.filk:
>         >>>>>
>
>     Being part Chippewa myself (mother's side), I want to
> toss in a gripe at
> the Politically Correct term "native American".  The name
> "Indians" did
> NOT -- as your schoolteachers glibly misinformed you -- come
> from Columbus
> mistaking American for India.  When Columbus sailed, the
> country we now call
> India was then called Hindustan: its people were called
> Hindustani, its
> language Hindi, its religion Hindu.  Furthermore, enough
> merchants had been
> there and back that the average educated European knew that
> the country had
> great wealth and a technology only a little behind Europe's.
> When Columbus
> landed (on the island of Hispaniola), he took one look at these
> Stone-Age-tech people -- who were friendly, simple, pious,
> and as naked as
> Adam and Eve in the Garden -- and knew damn well that this was not
> Hindustan.  He assumed that this was an outlying island, and
> Hindustan was
> only a little further over the horizon.  As for what to call
> these people,
> all he could come up with (in his bad Italian version of
> Spanish) was: "Una
> gente in Dios" -- literally, "a people in God", or "a Godly
> people".  The
> Spanish adventurers shorted the name to the last two words:
> In Dios.  To
> this day, the Spanish word for them is "Indios".  'Twas later English
> speakers who altered "Indios" to "Indians".  Frankly, there
> are a lot worse
> things to be called that "the Godly people" -- and a PC term based on
> historical ignorance is one of them.
>
>         <<<<<
>
> This sounds very suspicious to me, as if someone had noticed that
> "indios" could be split as "in Dios" and decided that the name had to
> have arisen that way. Of course, people who accept this sort of
> "obvious" explanation are not likely to be be dissuaded by expert
> opinion, but I'd like to try.
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel
>


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 14 17:34:15 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:34:15 EDT
Subject: silly and off-topic
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.133415.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/14/02 1:07:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

> >Perhaps this leads to the conclusion that partaking in pea-shooting
>  >contests is a sign of English stupidity, and that's why they turn their
>  >hats backward(s) for it.
>
>  Not to mention partaking in pee-shooting contests

Now that establishes the connection with the wearing of baseball caps.  While
the caps themselves are unisex, there is an inescapible sexual dimorphism in
how they are worn.  A boy wears his over his hair, so that a simple arm
movement can move the bill from the front to the back.  However, as you
undoubtedly noticed the last time you watched Lynne put her baseball cap on
over her pony tail, a girl necessarily has to thread her pony tail through
the gap between the cloth in the back of the cap and the adjustment straps,
which means that she is no more capable of turning the cap around than she is
of partaking in a pee-shooting contest.

     - Jim Landau


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun 14 18:08:57 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:08:57 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <ab.1d76660e.2a3b8317@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.140857.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Charles Willeford, "Something about a Soldier" (Random House, 1986), pp. 97-8.


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 15 00:37:55 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 20:37:55 -0400
Subject: Bat Mitzvah (1921, 1949); Kosher (1620); Mellah
In-Reply-To: <95.1dc5da9c.2a36b531@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.203755.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James A. Landau wrote:
>In a message dated 06/10/2002 2:08:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:
>
> > BAT MITZVAH
> >
> >     OED has 1950.  Perhaps the online New York Times has something.
> >     A Google search shows that the first Bat Mitzvah was of Judith Kaplan,
> >  daughter of Reconstructionist leader Mordechai Kaplan, in 1921.  Judith
> >  Kaplan Eisenstein died in 1995.
>
>Back in 1998 I chased down Judith Kaplan's bat mitzvah.  While she has been
>cited in numerous books, not to mention Web sites, I was unable to determine
>the date of her bat mitzvah.  Most written sources I have seen give 1922, as
>do the majority of the Web sites I found on a Google search.  I have even
>found two specific dates for the event, one in March 1922 and one in May
>1922.

My aunt claims to have attended this bat mitzvah (unless I'm hallucinating
a conversation). She's certainly old enough (91 this month) that it's
possible. I don't know if they were the same age. I'll give her a call over
the weekend (much belated...)

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 15 08:06:37 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 04:06:37 EDT
Subject: Yemen Cuisine (1934, in German)
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.040637.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   There's not a whole lot available on the cuisine of Yemen, pre-1980.  I'm
interested in "falafel" "hummus," and other food items
   OED has about _zero_ of these terms.  "Yemen" itself results in only 62
OED hits in total..
   A web check turns up (OCF=in OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD):

ZHUG--Yemen spice mixture (many hits).   OCF
HELBA (or HILBA, HILBAH)--sauce made from various spices and herbs.  OCF
FUUL (or FUL)--beans, uncooked vegetables, oil.  OCF
SALUF--oven baked flat bread.
KHUBZ (or KHOBZ) TAWWA--ordinary bread, from wheat flour.  "Pita."  OCF
GEED--bull's or ram's penis.
FATTA(H)--bread mixed with bouillion, eggs, and spices or mixed with dates
and bananas.
KABSA--rice with lamb meat.
HANID--lamb meat cooked in a typical oven with spices.
AGDA(H)--lamb meat cooked with vegetables, tomato sauce and spices.
MARAQ--bouillion made from mutton or goat meat. OCF
SALTA(H)--traditional lunchtime dish, a highly spiced stew of lentils,
chickpeas, beans and coriander.  A national dish that must be in OED,
although it's not in OCF.
LAHUH--pancake made from sorghum.  OCF
BINT AL SAHN (or BENT ALSAHN)--sweet bread made from eggs. OCF
SHAFUUT (or SHAFUT, SHAFOOT)--bread with yoghurt, mint, spices and herbs.
"Green yogurt soup."
SHAY--sweet tea.
QISHR--ginger coffee.  OCF

   Other Yemen food hits seen on the web:

ASEED--listed as an "important food" of Yemen, but only one hit.
BESBAS--listed as an "omportant food" of Yemen, but only one hit.
MUDDABAQ--double pancake, inside roasted eggs, with tomatoes, herbs and
spices.
ZAHAWEG ARKARY--a spicy sauce made from fresh tomatoes, green peppers, and
spices.
ZAHAWEG JOBN--a spicy sauce made from fresh tomatoes, green peppers, and
spices and Yemeni goat cheese.
BURAIK--puff pastry stuffed with minced meat.
SABAYA--typical Yemeni bread covered with honey.
SHORBAT ADAS--lentil soup.
SHORBAT KHUDAR--vegetable soup.
SHORBAT BORR--barley soup.
SHURBA WASABI--lamb soup.
SHURBA BILSAN--lentil soup.
MARAG LAHM--meat soup.
MOHKBAZAT SAYD--fish cooked in typical oven with a spicy tomato sauce.
FATT MARAG--dry bread with meat soup.
FASUULIA--beans.
MUSHAKKAL--mixed vegetables.
AD(D)AS--lentils.
KUDAM (or KIDDAM)--ten different types of whole meal flour.
MELUUJ (or MELUUDJ)--wheat flour.
SHAEER--barley flour.
RUUMI--maiz flour.
KAFUA' BILSEN--lentils flour.
HARADHA--a mincemeat and pepper dish.


ETHNOLOGIE DER JEMENITSCHEN JUDEN
von ERICH BRAUER
Heidelberg 1934
Carl Winters Universitatsbuchhandlung
Kulturgeschictliche Bibliothek  7

Pg. 104:  Hilbah.
(Entry is on the entire page.  "Hilbah" or "helba" must be in OED--ed.)

Pg. 100:
      Gebacksorten der Jemeniten.
   gihin aus dira' mit hammirah im tannur ohen mahbazah gebacken.  Dick und
ziemlich gross.  Das typische Brot der Gabilis.  Nicht San'a.
   damul, besonders in den Dorfern gegessen.  Auf dem Boden des tannur
befinden sich runder Locher, in die man den Teig tut.  Daruber macht man ein
Feuer aus Holz und deckt den Ofen zu.  Man backt z. B. damul, wenn man den
Ofen zur Herstellung von Arak braucht.
   rus, grobes Brot aus Kleie.  S. 'Anaph chajjim S. 186.
   rugagah (rukakah) auf der solla' aus Weizen gebacken.  Dunner als Ihuh,
aber harter und ohne Locher, wird meistens warm mit samn gegessen.
   zalabijah, eine Kuchenart aus Weizenmehl.  Auf der solla' mit samn
gebacken.  Das fertige Geback wird oft noch mit samn bestricken unde
gezuckert.  S. 'Anaph chajjim S. 17b; Qadri-Kersten S. 44, 171: "Zilabija:
Feinmehl, Eier, Milch, Sesmol, Gulgulan."
   saluf, die Brotart der Jemeniten.  Der gesauerte Teig ist mit hilbah ohne
zhug vermischt und wird mit der Hand an die Wand des tannur geklebt.  Ein
ziemlich dickes, aber nicht hartes Brot (s. S. 98f.).  Gleich dem malug der
Dorfler.
   'ais, Bezeichnung der landichen Araber fur brot.
   fhug, mit der mahbazah an den tannur geklebt.  Gleich lugmah bil-mahbazah,
daher dunn, aber von den landjuden fhug genannt.
   fadir (fatir), das ungesauerte Brot.  Man sagt: saluf fadir, mtanna fadir.
   kudmah (pl. kudam), Brot nach europaischer Art.  Rund, gewolht, aber fast
hohl.  Aus Weizen im europaischen Ofen gebacken.
(Pg. 101--ed.)
   gurs (pl. akras) wird das im Hause gebackene Brot im Gegensatz zur kudmah
genannt.
   gurmah (pl. guram), Brot aus dira' mit Sauerteig ohne mahbazah gebacken;
dick und hart, kleiner als saluf.  Das gewohnliche Essen der Gabilis.
Landberg, Etud. II, S. 1041.  "Die guram schatzen sie mehr als den Koran";
Goitein, Jemenica.  Qadri-Kersten S. 43: Durafladen.  Vgl. die seltsamen
guram bei Glaser, Marib S. 10 f.
   gafu', gleich guram, aber in San'a gafu genannt.  Qadri-Kersten S. 44,
172: "Qafu: Weizenmehl, Butter, Eier; fur den Ramadan bestimmt."
   galub, wie zalabijah, aber dick und ohne samn.  Von den Juden auch himmus
genannt.
   ka'k, eine Kuchenart aus Weizen, Eiern und samn im tannur gebacken.  Oft
mit Kornern guhda (kuhta) bestreut.
   Ihuh, aus dira' auf der solla' gebacken (s.S.99).  Qadri-Kersten S. 44;
170: "Luhuh: Auch dieses ist aus Dura-mehl hargestellt, dabei aber in Wasser
gebruht."
   lugmah (lukmah), allgemeiner Ausdruck der Juden fur Brot.  Die Araber
sagen in der Stadt hubz, auf dem Lande 'ais.  Vgl. Goitein, Lesonenu III. S.
357.
   mtanna', wie saluf, aber ohne Zutat von hilbah aus Weizen oder haufiger
aus Gerste gebacken.  Bevor man der Teig an die Ofenwand klebt, wird er mit
Mehl bestreut, damit er nicht anklebt und harter durchgebacken werden kann.
   mahlug, saluf der Dorfler und Araber.  Qadri-Kersten S. 43: "mahlug: aus
Weizen oder Dura hergestellter Fladen.  Wenn er gut gebacken wird, ist der
aus Weizen (gemachte) knusperig und weiss."
   nadulah (natulah).  Fallt vom Teig ein Stuck beim Backen in das Feuer, so
heisst der gebackene Teig nadulah.  Die Frauen holen ihn mit der Zange heraus
und essen ihn.
   himmus oder hummus wird von den Juden im Maghrib das gelub gennant.  Das
Wort stammt angeblich von dem Anfang der Benediktion uder Brot "hamosi..."*
-------------------------------
   *ha-mosi' lechem min ha-ares..., der das Brot aus der Erde hervorbringt.

(Pg. 102--ed.)
Da es im Maghrib keinen Weizen, sondern nur Durrha gibt und man uber
Durrhageback keine Benediktion sagen kann, so bringt man zu diesem Zweck
Weizen aus der Gegend von San'a dorthin: (Nach freundlicher Mitteilung von
Dr. Goitein.)

(On a quick glance I thought this last item was "hummus" (ground chick-peas),
but perhaps not--ed.)


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 15 18:31:33 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:31:33 EDT
Subject: Computer proverbs for Fred Shapiro
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.143133.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From Andrew S. Tanenbaum and Maarten van Steen _Distributed Systems:
Principles and Paradigms_ Upper Saddle River, NJ USA:Prentice-Hall, 2002,
ISBN 0-13-088893-1
page 1, referring to computers
"From a machine that cost 100 million dollars and executed 1 instruction per
second, we have come to machines that cost 1000 dollars and are able to
execute 10 million instructions per second, a price/performance gain of
10^12.  If cars had imporved at this rate in the same time period, a Rolls
Royce would now cost 1 dollar and get a billion miles per gallon."

I have seen variations of this proverb (?) several times, so I think it safe
to declare it a folk saying.  This version has the advantage that the authors
have actually done his math (working backwards from the 10 to the 12th
improvement, we find his initial Rolls Royce cost 10,000 dollars and got 10
miles to the gallon, i.e. an improvement of 10^8 in milage and 10^4 in price.)

The authors then add an original comment of their own:" (Unfortunately, it
would probably also have a 200-page manual telling how to open the door.)"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------

If it's there and you can see it, it's REAL
If it's not there and you can see it, it's VIRTUAL
If it's there and you can't see it, it's TRANSPARENT
If it's not there and you can't see it, it's DELETED

The above I have only seen once, in the summer of 1984 (an office-mate who
was trying out a fancy plotter ran off copies in your choice of typeface,
including Greek), so I don't know if it's a one-shot or a folk saying.

      - Jim Landau


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 15 19:33:43 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:33:43 EDT
Subject: etymythology for "Indian"?
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.153343.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, hmmm, <in> is not really a Spanish word, is it? Of course, one finds
{in-} used as a negative prefix in many Spanish words. Maybe Columbus decided
that the indigenous peoples were ungodly?


In a message dated 6/14/2002 12:58:24 PM, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes:

<< Having just been guilty of passing on one or possibly two apparent
etymythologies (Framingham), I would like to atone by seeking expert
opinions on what I suspect of being another. This was just posted to
rec.music.filk:
        >>>>>

    Being part Chippewa myself (mother's side), I want to toss in a gripe at
the Politically Correct term "native American".  The name "Indians" did
NOT -- as your schoolteachers glibly misinformed you -- come from Columbus
mistaking American for India.  When Columbus sailed, the country we now call
India was then called Hindustan: its people were called Hindustani, its
language Hindi, its religion Hindu.  Furthermore, enough merchants had been
there and back that the average educated European knew that the country had
great wealth and a technology only a little behind Europe's.  When Columbus
landed (on the island of Hispaniola), he took one look at these
Stone-Age-tech people -- who were friendly, simple, pious, and as naked as
Adam and Eve in the Garden -- and knew damn well that this was not
Hindustan.  He assumed that this was an outlying island, and Hindustan was
only a little further over the horizon.  As for what to call these people,
all he could come up with (in his bad Italian version of Spanish) was: "Una
gente in Dios" -- literally, "a people in God", or "a Godly people".  The
Spanish adventurers shorted the name to the last two words: In Dios.  To
this day, the Spanish word for them is "Indios".  'Twas later English
speakers who altered "Indios" to "Indians".  Frankly, there are a lot worse
things to be called that "the Godly people" -- and a PC term based on
historical ignorance is one of them.

        <<<<<

This sounds very suspicious to me, as if someone had noticed that
"indios" could be split as "in Dios" and decided that the name had to
have arisen that way. Of course, people who accept this sort of
"obvious" explanation are not likely to be be dissuaded by expert
opinion, but I'd like to try.

-- Mark A. Mandel >>


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun 15 19:39:44 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:39:44 -0400
Subject: Why
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.153944.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What is the origin of the interjection "why", as in "Why, you little
rascal!", "Why, I'll be damned!", etc.?

I just now realized that the pronunciation is different (in my background)
from the interrogative "why" -- i.e., I would pronounce "why" in "Why me?"
as /hwai/ but "why" in "Why, I'll be!" as /wai/ ... and surely at least
many of my family and childhood friends would have done the same. Just a
local peculiarity? Or a personal misconception?

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun 15 20:10:01 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 16:10:01 -0400
Subject: etymythology for "Indian"?
In-Reply-To: <15e.f44cdb3.2a3cf097@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.161001.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Well, hmmm, <in> is not really a Spanish word, is it?

Right to the point. (Of course "in" is the Italian cognate, and Colombo was
an Italian, right?)

Here is a discussion: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mgenteindios.html

Note that "Indus" = "Indian" (i.e., "[person] of India") in Latin (used by
Virgil and Ovid, according to the book), and "Indianus" = "Indian" also
existed. The southern astronomical constellation Indus ("the Indian",
referring to Amerinds apparently) was apparently invented around 1595. (SF
aficionados will recognize epsilon Indi as one of the candidate stars for
early extrasolar colonies etc. [only ~12 light-years away!])

-- Doug Wilson


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 15 20:44:10 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 16:44:10 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020615153037.045fa200@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.164410.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Nope, widepread among the few surviving wh/w distinguishers. I have
>the same rule.

dInIs

>What is the origin of the interjection "why", as in "Why, you little
>rascal!", "Why, I'll be damned!", etc.?
>
>I just now realized that the pronunciation is different (in my background)
>from the interrogative "why" -- i.e., I would pronounce "why" in "Why me?"
>as /hwai/ but "why" in "Why, I'll be!" as /wai/ ... and surely at least
>many of my family and childhood friends would have done the same. Just a
>local peculiarity? Or a personal misconception?
>
>-- Doug Wilson

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Sat Jun 15 20:51:37 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 16:51:37 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020615153037.045fa200@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.165137.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I say /hwai/ for both uses.  I am a native of Atlanta born in 1937 and
raised in Georgia until I was 18.

--Charles Wells

>What is the origin of the interjection "why", as in "Why, you little
>rascal!", "Why, I'll be damned!", etc.?
>
>I just now realized that the pronunciation is different (in my background)
>from the interrogative "why" -- i.e., I would pronounce "why" in "Why me?"
>as /hwai/ but "why" in "Why, I'll be!" as /wai/ ... and surely at least
>many of my family and childhood friends would have done the same. Just a
>local peculiarity? Or a personal misconception?
>
>-- Doug Wilson



Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 15 22:54:52 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 18:54:52 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20020615165027.00b6f7e0@mail.oberlin.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.185452.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Charles,

You are the first southerner (who apparently had the hw/w
distinction) who has reported this in my experience (and I have been
citing this /hw/ for why? /w/ for why! for some time). Unless I get
more testimonials, I fear I will have to consider it an idiosyncrasy
(no shame to you or yours I hope).

dInIs



>I say /hwai/ for both uses.  I am a native of Atlanta born in 1937 and
>raised in Georgia until I was 18.
>
>--Charles Wells
>
>>What is the origin of the interjection "why", as in "Why, you little
>>rascal!", "Why, I'll be damned!", etc.?
>>
>>I just now realized that the pronunciation is different (in my background)
>>from the interrogative "why" -- i.e., I would pronounce "why" in "Why me?"
>>as /hwai/ but "why" in "Why, I'll be!" as /wai/ ... and surely at least
>>many of my family and childhood friends would have done the same. Just a
>>local peculiarity? Or a personal misconception?
>>
>>-- Doug Wilson
>
>
>
>Charles Wells
>professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
>personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
>genealogical website:
>http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
>NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 15 23:59:46 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 19:59:46 EDT
Subject: Nash, Beigel, and the Goldbergs (1931)
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.195946.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE RISE OF THE GOLDBERGS
by Gertrude Berg
New York:  Barse and Company
1931

   "The Goldbergs" went on the air on NBC radio on November 20, 1929.  It was
very popular, and this is the book version.  There is no glossary, but the
words are explained in footnotes.
   I don't know if OED is going to add "nash" or "naschen" or "nosh," but we
gotta help the poor John Marianis of the world avoid a 1956 nosh date.

Pg. 23:  "You're a piano player like I'm a _shammes_."*
*Caretaker in a synagogue.

Pg. 25:  "Vhen de _latkes_* get cold dey ain't got no taste."
*Potato pancakes.

Pg. 42:  They'll be no more of that soup and _gefilte fish_* and _Peseach
matzos_.**
 *Stuffed fish.
**Passover matzos.

Pg. 45:  "Jake, Sammy, nu?  I'm giving to de table ulleready!"

Pg. 47:  "_Gedempfte brust_*, dat's your favorite supper!"
*Pot roast.

Pg. 48:  So he hired a _schlemihl_*...
*A dumbbell; a poor fish (slang).

Pg. 50:  "Gee, ma, you make chop suey out of Webster's dictionary!"

Pg. 73:  ...wearing his _yarmulka_*...
*Skull cap.

Pg. 103:  ..._gesund_*...
*Blessing.

Pg. 105:  "Blintzes,"* guessed Rosie.
*Filled pancakes.

Pg. 117:  "You'll get maybe two but you shouldn't _nash_* from de bag on de
vay home."
*Nibble; sample.

Pg. 128:  "I got a half chicken and some lovely _strudle_* in de ice box."
*Cake.

Pg. 138:  "Ulleright, Joe, good-bye--'_sei gesund_'."*
*Keep well; take care of yourself.

Pg. 138:  "I'm nothing but a _schmuser_*--a bit mout he said--right in front
of my face."
*Big mouth; flatterer.

Pg. 142:  "Home again!  Vhen you go avay a copple of hours and come back, it
looks _eppes_* so nice in de house."
*Something so nice; a treat.

Pg. 144:  "Oy, oy, oy! mine _kugel_* is burnt," she wailed.
*Pudding.

Pg. 153:  "Mr. Tobias, a cup tea maybe, ha?  Some _kuchelach_?"*
*Goulash.

Pg. 156:  "Please don't be a shadchente," Mollie!"
*Matchmaker.

Pg. 157:  "I tink vhat maybe vill be a _shiddach_!"*
*Match.

Pg. 193:  "I'm not hungry, but I could _nash_ someting."
   "Maybe a piece of sveet and sour fish, ha?"

Pg. 195:  "Everyting vould be ulleright if that Mendel vas only a _mensch_,"*
sighed Jake, finishing his fish.
*Human.

Pg. 203:  ..._shul_*...
*Synagogue.

Pg. 204:  ..._simcha_*...
*Party; celebration.

Pg. 224:  "Oy, a _beigel_?"* laughed Mollie.
*A roll with a hole in it.

Pg. 243:  "I bet she didn't _fargined_* herself to eat an egg for breakfast
for monts so she could save up to buy Sammy a present.
*Denied; scrimped.


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Sun Jun 16 00:54:24 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:54:24 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b9317577275e@[35.12.20.234]>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.205424.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The usage of "why" as in "Why, I'll be" feels to me to be something I
learned later in life, maybe even from books.  That might be why I don't
make the distinction.

--Charles

>Charles,
>
>You are the first southerner (who apparently had the hw/w
>distinction) who has reported this in my experience (and I have been
>citing this /hw/ for why? /w/ for why! for some time). Unless I get
>more testimonials, I fear I will have to consider it an idiosyncrasy
>(no shame to you or yours I hope).
>
>dInIs
>
>
>
>>I say /hwai/ for both uses.  I am a native of Atlanta born in 1937 and
>>raised in Georgia until I was 18.
>>
>>--Charles Wells
>>
>>>What is the origin of the interjection "why", as in "Why, you little
>>>rascal!", "Why, I'll be damned!", etc.?
>>>
>>>I just now realized that the pronunciation is different (in my background)
>>>from the interrogative "why" -- i.e., I would pronounce "why" in "Why me?"
>>>as /hwai/ but "why" in "Why, I'll be!" as /wai/ ... and surely at least
>>>many of my family and childhood friends would have done the same. Just a
>>>local peculiarity? Or a personal misconception?
>>>
>>>-- Doug Wilson
>>
>>
>>
>>Charles Wells
>>professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
>>personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
>>genealogical website:
>>http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
>>NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>740 Wells Hall A
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>Office - (517) 353-0740
>Fax - (517) 432-2736



Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 16 01:39:04 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 21:39:04 EDT
Subject: Kebutzah (1926); Schmooze (1902); Ich gebibble (1915)
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.213904.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

KEBUTZAH

THE JEWISH NATIONAL HOME
by Isaac Breuer
Francfort-on-the-Maine: J. Kauffmann
1926

Pg. 37:  The simplest peasant of any Kebutzah, tilling the ground by the
sweat of his brow, appeared to them worthier than the prophet Jeremiah, whose
word re-echoes through the centuries.

Pg. 38:  But the Kebutzah recognized neither God nor the Torah, and the
tender flame was soon crushed out by hard work.

(OED has 1931 for "kibbutz."  The JERUSALEM NEWS, 1919-1920, is in the annex,
and I'll get it on Tuesday and check for this and other terms...I went
through a lot of Jewish National Fund publications without finding an earlier
"kibbutz"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
SCHMOOZE

NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK:  A STORY OF JEWISH SOCIAL LIFE
by Violet Guttenberg
London: Chatto & Windus
1902

   OED has an 1897 "schmoos," but the next citations are 1921 and 1939.

Pg. 6:  When these girls get _chosanim_*...
*Bridegrooms.

Pg. 37:  ...most _goyeshka_* fellows...
*Gentile.

Pg. 40:  ..._kosher_* food...
*Ritually clean.

Pg. 49:  ..._Yomtovim_*...
*Jewish holydays.

Pg. 51:  ..._Yiddishkeit_*...
*Pertaining to Judaism.

Pg. 52:  ..._bar mitzvah_*...
*Confirmation.

Pg. 60:  ...with either Dinah of Victor to act as "gooseberry."

Pg. 63:  ..._Yom Kippur_*...
*Day of Atonement.

Pg. 65:  ..._yomtovdic_* clothes...
*Festive.

Pg. 78:  ...mazzletov_*...
*Congratulation.

Pg. 116:  ...a nice chosan* for you...
*Bridegroom.

Pg. 145:  ..._shabbos_*..._geld_*...
*Sabbath.
**Money.

Pg. 154:  ...poor Yidden* there...
*Jews.

Pg. 154:  Dinah had grown into a very stylish girl, with plenty of what her
mother called _chein_.*
*Smart wit.

Pg. 167:  He was what they call "game for anything," so full of activity, so
humorous in his ways...

Pg. 192:  He would sit _shiva_*...
*Mourning.

Pg. 200: "_M'shumador_!"* she exclaimed laconically...
*Converted Jewess.

Pg. 208:  ..._Shabbos_*..._Yomtov_**...
*Sabbath.
**Holy-days.

Pg. 211:  Here they could chat, or _schmooze_,* as they called it, to their
heart's content.
*Converse with familiarity.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
ICH GEBIBBLE

LAPIDOWITZ THE SCHNORRER
by Bruno Lessing
New York: Hearst's International Library Co.
1915

   The RHHDAS H-O has a TAD 1913 spelling similar to this, then 1915.  It is
the last line of this book.

Pg. 50:  "Are you _meshuga_ (crazy)?"

Pg. 348:  "Ich gebibble," he chuckled.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 16 08:40:44 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 04:40:44 EDT
Subject: Coffee Shop (1831) and Turkish Sayings
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.044044.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CONSTANTINOPLE AND ITS ENVIRONS.
IN A SERIES OF LETTERS, EXHIBITING THE ACTUAL STATE OF THE MANNERS, CUSTOMS,
AND HABITS OF THE TURKS, ARMENIANS, JEWS, AND GREEKS, AS MODIFIED BY THE
POLICY OF SULTAN MAHMOUD
by An American
(Commodore David Porter--ed.)
in two volumes
New-York: Harper & Brothers
1835

   I went through this book quickly and didn't see "Turkish Delight."
However, there were two nice pages of "Turkish sayings" that perhaps are of
interest to Fred Shapiro--and are perhaps not Turkish?

VOLUME ONE
Pg. 65 (Nov. 7, 1831):  On arriving at the summit you find, as you find in
every pleasant place, a coffee shop, a kiosk, rather small, but very neat,
belonging to the Grand Seignor, a small mosque, and you discover one of the
finest views in the world.
(OED has 1838 for "coffee shop," from Dickens.  Merriam-Webster has 1836 for
"coffee shop"--ed.)

Pg. 65:  ...they call it spending a day of _keff_, that is, a jollification.
("Keff" is here many times, but there is no OED hit--ed.)

Pg. 76:  I have, God knows, (Pg. 77--ed.) diplomancy enough around and about
me--ceremonious visits to receive and return with the minister, more than I
can "shake a stick at," but what are they compared to a single friend, a
glass, and a cigar.
(OED has 1818, then 1843 for "shake a stick at"--ed.)

Pg. 102:  ..._Bacsth Tasch_...
(The way this book spells "backshish"--ed.)

Pg. 124:  ...kabobs (lumps of mutton)...

Pg. 160:  P. S.  I cannot conclude, without giving you a few Turkish sayings:
   "Love those who love you even if they are poor, but do not love him who
does not love you, even were it the king.
   "He who loves me I am his slave, and he who hates me, I would wish to be
his sovereign.
   "In saying honey! honey! the mouth cannot be sweetened.
   "The fruit tree is always liable to be stoned.
   "Associate (or be friends) with the devil, until you are safe over the
bridge.
   "There is no rose without thorns.
   "A little fowl is always a chicken.
   "Love and a cough cannot remain long undiscovered.
(This is an exact quotation of George Herbert.  He was Turkish?-ed.)
   "With patience ver-juice becomes sweet, and the leaves of the mulberry
become silk.
   "He who watches the kettle, will, without doubt, have a part of the soup.
(Pg. 161--ed.)
   "Every pleasure has its pain, every tear has its smile.
   "After the overturn of your coach, there are multitudes ready to point out
a better road.
   "Sweet words draw serpents from their nests, and bad language destroys
confidence.
   "Beauty is not _itself_ beauty--beauty is that which pleases _you_.
   "The man in love with himself, thinks the rest of the world blind.
   "Love is a torture that is only known to those who have felt it.
   "The man who keeps his face to the ground, can never have his nose pulled.
   "The gout and religion, are two things which do not admit of dispute.
   "He who falls on purpose should never cry.
   "If you are polite, you will permit the rose to shed its odours, if rude
and rustic, you will enter the garden to destroy it.
   "Beware of the crow lest he pick your eyes out.
   "Pay no attention to the tears of sore eyes.
   "It is a shame to those who ask, but a double shame to those who refuse.
   "He who gives too much, gives for ostentation, he who gives little, gives
it from the heart.
   "However much you may desire to succeed in an affair, no more can be done
than is destined.
   "A witty enemy is preferable to a foolish friend."

Pg. 274:  They act up to the Spanish proverb that, "by gaining time,
something is gained."

Pgg. 277:  Fourthly, a vessel containing _Kaimar_, heretofore described.
(...)  The bread was the vehicle which conveyed the _kaimac_ to the mouth,
and the fingers those of the salad, fritters, &c.
("Kaimar" and "kaimac" are not in the OED?--ed.)

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 12:  It is not usual for them to take off their "yackmacks"...
(OED has 1844 for "yashmack"--ed.)

Pg. 59:  They are, when done, served up in their own gravy, or in _kaymar_,
which is cream.  There is also served up with them, a soft, flat kind of
bread, or pancake, which, as no knives or forks are made use of, suits
admirably as a means of conveying the _kibabs_ and the _kaymar_ to the mouth,
whence they soon find their way into the stomach.  The bread is called _Firna
Pidese_.
(OED doesn't have "kaymar" or "Firna Pidese," either--ed.)


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 16 12:35:57 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 08:35:57 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20020615205237.00b6ed60@mail.oberlin.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.083557.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>AHA! Your nonvernacular has rared up and bit you!

dInIs

>The usage of "why" as in "Why, I'll be" feels to me to be something I
>learned later in life, maybe even from books.  That might be why I don't
>make the distinction.
>
>--Charles
>
>>Charles,
>>
>>You are the first southerner (who apparently had the hw/w
>>distinction) who has reported this in my experience (and I have been
>>citing this /hw/ for why? /w/ for why! for some time). Unless I get
>>more testimonials, I fear I will have to consider it an idiosyncrasy
>>(no shame to you or yours I hope).
>>
>>dInIs
>>
>>
>>
>>>I say /hwai/ for both uses.  I am a native of Atlanta born in 1937 and
>>>raised in Georgia until I was 18.
>>>
>>>--Charles Wells
>>>
>>>>What is the origin of the interjection "why", as in "Why, you little
>>>>rascal!", "Why, I'll be damned!", etc.?
>>>>
>>>>I just now realized that the pronunciation is different (in my background)
>>>>from the interrogative "why" -- i.e., I would pronounce "why" in "Why me?"
>>>>as /hwai/ but "why" in "Why, I'll be!" as /wai/ ... and surely at least
>>>>many of my family and childhood friends would have done the same. Just a
>>>>local peculiarity? Or a personal misconception?
>>>>
>>>>-- Doug Wilson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Charles Wells
>>>professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
>>>personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
>>>genealogical website:
>>>http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
>>>NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm
>>
>>--
>>Dennis R. Preston
>>Professor of Linguistics
>>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>>740 Wells Hall A
>>Michigan State University
>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>>Office - (517) 353-0740
>>Fax - (517) 432-2736
>
>
>
>Charles Wells
>professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
>personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
>genealogical website:
>http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
>NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 16 15:40:07 2002
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 08:40:07 -0700
Subject: Why
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.084007.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInIs, about interrogative WHY (voiceless initial) vs. exclamatory WHY
(voiced initial):
 >widepread among the few surviving wh/w distinguishers. I have
 >the same rule.

this comes up every few years.  i have the same distinction, and
have observed it in many other wh/w distinguishers.

i believe that, for me, WHOA and exclamatory WHY are the only
words spelled with initial <wh> that have only voiced initials.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sun Jun 16 16:27:57 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 12:27:57 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <200206161540.g5GFe7618867@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.122757.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) writes:

>dInIs, about interrogative WHY (voiceless initial) vs. exclamatory WHY
>(voiced initial):
> >widepread among the few surviving wh/w distinguishers. I have
> >the same rule.
>
>this comes up every few years.  i have the same distinction, and
>have observed it in many other wh/w distinguishers.
>
>i believe that, for me, WHOA and exclamatory WHY are the only
>words spelled with initial <wh> that have only voiced initials.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
~~~~~~~
...and then there's the Flanders & Swann song, "I'm a Gnu"  with the
line:"You really ought to k at -now  w at -ho's w at -ho."
A. Murie


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 16 17:10:48 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:10:48 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <200206161540.g5GFe7618867@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.131048.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

arnold,

Instrospection throughout the entire range shows I have /worf/ for
both "wharf" (for boats) and "Whorf" (for Benjamin Lee).

My old Webtser's New World does indeed show "wharf" with /hw/. Hwat a surprise!

dInIs



>dInIs, about interrogative WHY (voiceless initial) vs. exclamatory WHY
>(voiced initial):
>  >widepread among the few surviving wh/w distinguishers. I have
>  >the same rule.
>
>this comes up every few years.  i have the same distinction, and
>have observed it in many other wh/w distinguishers.
>
>i believe that, for me, WHOA and exclamatory WHY are the only
>words spelled with initial <wh> that have only voiced initials.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 16 19:50:46 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:50:46 -0400
Subject: Hot Dog; Off Topic: Parking Violations "Policy Change"
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.155046.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Today, in the CITY section of the 6-16-2002 Sunday NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 7, col. 1, is an article about "LA LUPE WAY."  La Lupe, the singer famous in the 1960s and 1970s, lived on that stretch of East 140th Street from 1986-1992.  The past and present borough presidents of the Bronx were in attendance.
   When I wrote to the borough president...
   A little "irony" posting today, mostly off topic.

---------------------------------------------------------------
HOT DOG

   "Hot dog" is wrong, again, this time in the YORK DAILY RECORD, available on the Dow Jones news database, 6-8-2002, "Well, hot dog, what do you know?"
   The newspaper couldn't even get the wrong information right:

   His name was Thomas A. Morgan, who signed his cartoons "Tad."

---------------------------------------------------------------
OFF TOPIC: PARKING VIOLATIONS "POLICY CHANGE"

   On Friday, through the judge grapevine, I was told of a "Parking Violations Policy Change."  I copied the 6-7-2002 memo--which I still haven't received in the mail.  I have not been told of this "policy change" by any Parking official, and I haven't seen it posted anywhere in the help centers.
   It looks like any other memo.  It could be about any boring thing we receive--like the issuance of "Birthplace of Baseball" license plates.  But actually, it has to do with how we handle fundamental due process.  I've explained parts of this here before (and off-list to Dave Wilton), but here's the story.
   Judges always ask for a vehicle registration, and had dismissed tickets upon knowledge of material defects.  Wrong make, wrong plate type, no date.  Dismissed automatically.  (A simple computer program could also do this, but it's not a priority.)
   One consumer-oriented legislator put this into law in 1995.  If there's a defect and it's raised, the ticket is dismissed.
   Later in 1995, at a judge meeting, judges were "instructed" by the agency (not our employers, by the way; we're "independent contractors" who get no benefits) that the dismissals are no longer automatic.  The law says "if raised."  People who get tickets--many who speak Spanish or other languages--must _specifically_ raise a defect under Vehicle and Traffic Law section 238 subdivision 2-a (b).
   Hey, good luck with that.
   Soon after that, when my work was reviewed, I was told that I didn't write enough on a dismissal.  I had to specifically write if the respondent had raised the issue, or if I raised it myself because I considered the ticket really, really bad anyway.  And I said, hey, let's get real, THIS TICKET HAS NO DATE!  How much do you want me to write?  If the person doesn't notice it, we enforce it????
   Several times in the past year, a particular senior judge warned me about dismissing too many legally defective tickets.
   From the memo:

"The Department's prior application of the statute may have resulted in different outcomes depending on whether the respondent was experienced in the adjudication process..."

   No kidding.
   Obviously, this was done under pressure--what pressure, I don't know.  As usual, the officials who knowingly misapplied the law and told us to take unfair advantage of society's weakest people will not be disbarred or punished in any way.
   This should be a scandal.  But this is New York City.  It won't be reported at all.  The local tv news will do promos for "Scooby Doo."  The print news will tell us about Jennifer Lopez's love life.  And both will do cute stories about pets.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 16 21:11:07 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 17:11:07 -0400
Subject: Hot Dog; Off Topic: Parking Violations "Policy Change"
In-Reply-To: <3F4FD61D.25DFA243.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.171107.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>HOT DOG
>
>    "Hot dog" is wrong, again, this time in the YORK DAILY RECORD,
>available on the Dow Jones news database, 6-8-2002, "Well, hot dog,
>what do you know?"
>    The newspaper couldn't even get the wrong information right:
>
>    His name was Thomas A. Morgan, who signed his cartoons "Tad."
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------
well, maybe that represents progress.  Next story we can look forward to...

"His name was John J. Fitz Gerald, who signed his cartoons 'Tad'."

larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 17 03:45:02 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 23:45:02 -0400
Subject: Johnny Pump (1934)
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.234502.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CALL IT SLEEP
by Henry Roth
The Noonday Press, Farrar, Straus and Giroux
1991, eleventh printing 1996
(Originally published in 1934)

   This is a great book, and Lighter used it extensively in the RHHDAS.  He could have cited even more.
   DARE has "johnny pump" from 1985, citing New York City speech.  I hear it quite often in my job.  Antedating the term fifty years doesn't score you any points.  (Nothing does.)
   Not much for food terms, but you can't have everything.

Pg. 37:  "You'd better go in and 'pee' first," he advised, smiling.  "How does your mother say it?"
   "She says numbuh one."
(RHHDAS has this--ed.)

Pg. 87:  They marched cross the street in single file and stopped before a tall hydrant.
   "Jump on Johnny Pump!" commanded Sidney leaping up on the two stumpy arms of the fire-plug.
(FYI:  Parking within fifteen feet of a fire hydrant is a $55 fine.  The city is facing a budget crisis, and that fine will probably go up very soon--ed.)

Pg. 151:  "How long is it since you shit on the ocean?"
   "Chops like those," he glowered warningly, "deserve to drop off."

Pg. 160:  "Kockin," as David had learned long ago, was a Yiddish word meaning to sit on the toilet.

Pg. 231:  Shit, pee, fuckenbestit--Stop!

Pg. 249:  "Dot's a lodda bullshit, Pedey."

Pg. 251:  "Aw, hosschit."

Pg. 251:  "Peugh!  Wadda stink!"
(What will the next HDAS have for P.U.?--ed.)

Pg. 252:  "Lemme lay putso."

Pg. 272:  "Mor'n' a zillion rubbuh ben's he had on id, and id wouldn't even go high like dis cellah."
(Is this the M-W 1934 "zillion"?--ed.)

Pg. 281:  "Waddaye shittin' about?" ... "An de nex' time watch out who de fuck yer chas--"

Pg. 291:  "Betcha million dollehs dey're all on Evenyeh D."
(Everyone in 1934 was betting a million dollars on something--ed.)

Pg. 294:  "Big bush under duh belly!"  ..."Fat ass, we seen!  Big--Wuh!  Wadda kinerry!  Wee!  An' duh hull knish!  All de hairs!"
(Not a reference to President George W. Bush--ed.)

Pg. 309:  "Not like my two wenches, sluggish turds!"

Pg. 313:  "Mind yuh own beeswax!"
(RHHDAS first cite for this--ed.)

Pg. 320:  "An' I et ev'y kind o' bread dey is." Leo continued proudly.  "Aitalian bread-sticks, Dutch pummernickel, Jew rye--even watchuh call 'em, matziz--matches--"  He snickered.  "Dey're nuttin but big crackers--D'ja ever eat real spigeddi?"
   "No, wod's dat?"
   "De wops eat it just like pitaters.  An' boy ain' it good!"

Pg. 361:  "Cantchuh see, cock-eye Mulligan?"

Pg. 364:  "Fight!  Fight!  Gib'm, haws-fly!  In de kishkis--nudder one!"

Pg. 371-372:  Fuhgimbestit, it's him!"

Pg. 377:  WISH I had a potsee, a potsee.

Pg. 413:  "A putz!"

Pg. 416:  "Dintcha ever hear o' the Spanish Fly--"

Pg. 422:  "Shit!"


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 17 04:50:14 2002
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 21:50:14 -0700
Subject: Why
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.215014.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

sagehen adds WHO to WHOA and exclamatory WHY.  but WHO(M)/WHOSE
all have initial h, not w, so they're not involved in the
relationships we've been talking about.


dInIs adds (for him) WHORF and WHARF.  both of these can have
initial voiceless consonants for me.  but i'd certainly expect
plenty of words to have moved into the voiced-only set for
other speakers; after all, i have voiced initials as possible
variants for all the voiceless-initial words.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 17 11:47:33 2002
From: stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM (s. . .)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 04:47:33 -0700
Subject: Help!
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.044733.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear all, I would like to know if there is an
expression in English to wish a colleague or friend
"a good working day" (meaning "work well").

Also, can you think of any way to say "if you knew
poverty..." or "if you were poorer...," which comment
would be directed to people who seem to take material
comforts for granted, are never thankful for what they
have and are therefore "blas?." Thanks!

P. Lombardo

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Jun 17 12:17:21 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:17:21 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <200206170450.g5H4oEk23910@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.081721.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

arnold,

dInIs also notes that "wharf" and "Whorf" are pretty clearly words
learned after his vernacular was well-entrenched, and he probably
first heard these words pronounced by flatlander conflaters.

This qausi-developmental phoneme classification is clearest in my
speech as regards the cot-caught distinction (which I have
well-preserved) when it comes to classifying those two phonemes,
especially before /g/. All my childhood words (fog, hog, dog, frog,
log, etc...) have the vowel of "caught"; later-learned words are
often invariably that of "cot": togs, cog, clog, bog, jog, etc... . I
seem to have learned metaphoric (verbal) "bog" before the literal
noun. Therefore, I have a variable "bog down" (=become mired in) with
both vowels - but now early-morning introspection begins to fail me.

dInIs



>sagehen adds WHO to WHOA and exclamatory WHY.  but WHO(M)/WHOSE
>all have initial h, not w, so they're not involved in the
>relationships we've been talking about.
>
>
>dInIs adds (for him) WHORF and WHARF.  both of these can have
>initial voiceless consonants for me.  but i'd certainly expect
>plenty of words to have moved into the voiced-only set for
>other speakers; after all, i have voiced initials as possible
>variants for all the voiceless-initial words.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 17 12:19:35 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:19:35 EDT
Subject: "bet a million"
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.081935.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

John Warne "Bet A Million" Gates, born May 18, 1855, died August 9, 1911.

"He gambled at poker, the stock market, and horse races. In 1900 at a horse
race in England he bet $70,000 on Royal Flush with 5?-to-1 odds and won
$600,000. Rumors had him winning over $2 million and said he had bet a cool
million, a fabrication that gave him his nickname. "
(from http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/GG/fga41.html,
"The Handbook of Texas Online", by The Texas State Historical Association)

     - Jim Landau


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Jun 17 12:58:29 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:58:29 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b9338171509d@[35.12.22.98]>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.085829.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>This quasi-developmental phoneme classification is clearest in my
>speech as regards the cot-caught distinction (which I have
>well-preserved) when it comes to classifying those two phonemes,
>especially before /g/. All my childhood words (fog, hog, dog, frog,
>log, etc...) have the vowel of "caught"; later-learned words are
>often invariably that of "cot": togs, cog, clog, bog, jog, etc... . I
>seem to have learned metaphoric (verbal) "bog" before the literal
>noun. Therefore, I have a variable "bog down" (=become mired in) with
>both vowels - but now early-morning introspection begins to fail me.

Why is "g" different? I speak all the "-g" words (I think) with the
"caught" vowel /O/, but comparable words with other terminal stops have /a/
like in "cot" ... e.g., "cop cob cot cod cock cog" = /kap kab kat kad kak
kOg/. Others in my family have the same. My talking RH dictionary seems to
tend this way too. I think /kag/, /klag/, /dZag/ do seem less 'wrong' to me
than /dag/, /lag/, /fag/ -- something like Dennis says above. My weather
radio (Pittsburgh) says "fahg" /fag/ instead of "fawg" /fOg/ ... which
strikes me (and at least some others) as odd.

-- Doug Wilson


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Mon Jun 17 14:02:41 2002
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 09:02:41 -0500
Subject: "bet a million"
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.090241.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Can I bet with this book?  just off the top of my head should have won under
$400,000.00
----- Original Message -----
From: "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 7:19 AM
Subject: "bet a million"


> John Warne "Bet A Million" Gates, born May 18, 1855, died August 9, 1911.
>
> "He gambled at poker, the stock market, and horse races. In 1900 at a
horse
> race in England he bet $70,000 on Royal Flush with 5?-to-1 odds and won
> $600,000. Rumors had him winning over $2 million and said he had bet a
cool
> million, a fabrication that gave him his nickname. "
> (from
http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/GG/fga41.html,
> "The Handbook of Texas Online", by The Texas State Historical Association)
>
>      - Jim Landau
>


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Mon Jun 17 14:25:16 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 10:25:16 -0400
Subject: Help!
In-Reply-To: <20020617114733.1248.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.102516.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, s. . . wrote:

#Dear all, I would like to know if there is an
#expression in English to wish a colleague or friend
#"a good working day" (meaning "work well").

None that I can think of.

#Also, can you think of any way to say "if you knew
#poverty..." or "if you were poorer...," which comment
#would be directed to people who seem to take material
#comforts for granted, are never thankful for what they
#have and are therefore "blas?." Thanks!

No standard expression with that exact sense and usage, nothing
lexicalized in the way of "Have a nice day" or "Knock on wood". In the
neighborhood are "You have it easy" or "You think you have it hard" or
"Look who's complaining", any of which would be followed by explanation,
e.g., "Plenty of people ..." or "There are millions who'd trade places
with you in an instant". WARNING: Saying anything like this is likely to
be received with some hostility, as would anything else fulfilling your
request.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 17 14:27:13 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 10:27:13 EDT
Subject: Wildfires
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.102713.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My wife has been following the news about the fires in Colorado and commented
that "wildfire" is a Western term; here in the Midwest we would say "forest
fire." That seems right to me . . . but has anyone noted this?
- Allan Metcalf


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 17 14:55:19 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 10:55:19 EDT
Subject: Wildfires plus assorted
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.105519.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/17/02 10:27:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, AAllan at AOL.COM
writes:

> My wife has been following the news about the fires in Colorado and
commented
>  that "wildfire" is a Western term; here in the Midwest we would say "forest
>  fire." That seems right to me . . . but has anyone noted this?

The Midwest, east of the Mississippi and to a certain extent west of the
Mississippi, was originally heavily forested and even in this industrial age
still has plenty of trees.  Any fire whose area is measured in acres probably
started in a forest and hence is a "forest fire".  In the West there are
forests, but the majority of the area is grassland (prairie), scrub, or
barren.  Hence in the West a fire covering numerous acres could easily be a
grass fire etc., so the Westerners lump such fires together under the
all-inclusive term "wildfire", even if the fire started and/or remained in
one of the Western forests.

While I'm here, a few assorted:

A little while ago a barge hit and knocked down a highway bridge, which made
national news for several days.  Many of the news reports referred to the
"tugboat" which was pushing the barge.  That is a giveaway of an Easterner.
A "tugboat" (there are many in New York Harbor) pushes an otherwise
self-propelled ship around the harbor, or less often goes out into the ocean
to pull a damaged ship to harbor.

On the other hand, in the Mississippi valley a boat which maneuvers unpowered
barges around is a "towboat".  The only tugboats in the Mississippi valley
are at New Orleans, handling self-propelled ocean-going ships.  The guilty
vessel in that bridge collapse was a towboat, not a tugboat.

Also, a towboat ALWAYS "tows" barges, although in fact it pushes them.
Normally "to tow" means "to pull" but in this particular context it means "to
push [barges]".  However, when an ocean-going tugboat "tows" a ship to
safety, it normally PULLS that ship by means of a "towline".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
An e-mail from a local organization manages to use "ebay" as an adverb(?).
" We are in need of an individual(s) who is ebay savvy to sell new
merchandise that has been donated to us for a fund raiser. "
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
I just saw "Scoobydoo" (quite enjoyable in a campy sort of way, but I still
say it would have been better without the title character).  Two of the human
characters are called "Velma" and "Shaggy"  In various places in the movie
they are called "the Velmster" and "the Shagster".  Does anyone know where
and when the custom of calling someone "the x-ster" began?

      - James A. Landau


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Mon Jun 17 15:12:45 2002
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:12:45 -0400
Subject: ..words and the internet..
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.111245.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An on-line paper by John Fraim, Electric Symbols: Internet Words And
Culture, in _First Monday_, June 2002, 7 #6, contends that "Words both
create and communicate worldviews.  The greatest potential in history
for the observation and analysis of words exists on the Internet. . . .
the Internet can be considered history's greatest observatory and
laboratory of words."

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue7_6/fraim/index.html

Among the ADS-related topics/people noted in the paper are:  American
Speech; ATNW; America in So Many Words, by Barnhart and Metcalf; Connie
Eble; Linguistics Society of America; and Dennis R. Preston.

Contents of the current (June 2002) issue:
http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue7_6/

George Cole
Shippensburg University


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 17 15:15:48 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:15:48 -0400
Subject: Why
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020617083708.04e65eb0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.111548.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Douglas Wilson:

>>This quasi-developmental phoneme classification is clearest in my
>>speech as regards the cot-caught distinction (which I have
>>well-preserved) when it comes to classifying those two phonemes,
>>especially before /g/. All my childhood words (fog, hog, dog, frog,
>>log, etc...) have the vowel of "caught"; later-learned words are
>>often invariably that of "cot": togs, cog, clog, bog, jog, etc... . I
>>seem to have learned metaphoric (verbal) "bog" before the literal
>>noun. Therefore, I have a variable "bog down" (=become mired in) with
>>both vowels - but now early-morning introspection begins to fail me.
>
>Why is "g" different? I speak all the "-g" words (I think) with the
>"caught" vowel /O/, but comparable words with other terminal stops have /a/
>like in "cot" ... e.g., "cop cob cot cod cock cog" = /kap kab kat kad kak
>kOg/. Others in my family have the same. My talking RH dictionary seems to
>tend this way too. I think /kag/, /klag/, /dZag/ do seem less 'wrong' to me
>than /dag/, /lag/, /fag/ -- something like Dennis says above. My weather
>radio (Pittsburgh) says "fahg" /fag/ instead of "fawg" /fOg/ ... which
>strikes me (and at least some others) as odd.
>

For the canonical /a/-/O/ contrast, "dog" (with the "caught" vowel)
is an exception (when I work with colleagues whose interest is in
phoneme-grapheme correspondences and early reading instruction, "dog"
is often highlighted as an exception word). When FogDog.com first
started out, I found the TV commercials in which "fog" and "dog"
rhyme most disconcerting; since I first saw these in Maine, I thought
that they were regional to the greater Boston area, but they weren't.

Alice


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 17 15:17:30 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:17:30 -0400
Subject: Wildfires
In-Reply-To: <fb.27c89bdf.2a3f4bc1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.111730.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>My wife has been following the news about the fires in Colorado and commented
>that "wildfire" is a Western term; here in the Midwest we would say "forest
>fire." That seems right to me . . . but has anyone noted this?

I'd have to check, but a few weeks ago there were fires bad enough to
close the Garden State Parkway somewhere near Atlantic City (New
Jersey). I'm pretty sure these were referred to in the news as
"wildfires". I've heard the same in Florida.

Alice


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Mon Jun 17 15:37:58 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:37:58 -0400
Subject: -og words
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.113758.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I say "dog" with the caught vowel and all other -og words with the cob
vowel (not distinguished in my Atlanta-based dialect from the a in father).
 Like Alice Faber, I was bothered as a child by verse that rhymed dog with
other words.

I also noticed when I was young that we said "got" differently from other
-ot words, so got and hot don't rhyme; the vowel in "got" is higher, and is
the same except for length as the monophthong in "ride".  (I say "right" as
a diphthong, however.)  Thus this short vowel occurs in exactly one word in
my dialect, except when I am imitating hillbillies.  I understand that this
feature of the Atlanta dialect has been noticed by linguists.  Does that
mean it is an extra phoneme?

There are apparently phenomena like this in Cantonese and in Arabic:  In
Cantonese, there is one tone that is used in exactly one fairly common
word, nowhere else.  And in standard modern Arabic there is supposedly a
sound used only in the word "Allah" and nowhere else, but I forget the details.

My Cantonese informant once told me, "Cantonese has nine tones, but it only
uses seven."  Now just what does that mean...?

Charles WElls




Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 17 15:48:13 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:48:13 -0700
Subject: Wildfires
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.084813.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think wildfire and forest fire are pretty
interchangeable in the east. A quick google search
found a number of offical NJ state sites that refer to
"wildfires" or "wildland fires". In addition The
following quote from a commentary by NJ Assemblyman
Steve Corodemus uses both "wildfire" and 'forest
fire":

"Spring weather conditions such as high wind and
higher temperatures coupled with low humidity can spur
wildfires. The danger rises dramatically between March
15 and May 15, which is the critical forest fire
period, and residents and visitors must take extra
precautions during these months."
http://www.ahherald.com/trenton_talk/2002/tt_020328_fire_prev.htm

Also, Smokey the Bear admonishes "Only you can prevent
forest fires."

Ed



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Mon Jun 17 16:13:57 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:13:57 -0400
Subject: Wildfires
In-Reply-To: <20020617154813.19297.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.121357.0400.>

Perhaps I am over-thinking this (very likely), but I discern a difference
between wildfire and "forest fire." Now, I'm not sure if this springs from
my Missouri background or my years in New York City, or a combination or
intersection of both but the differences are 1) urgency, 2) location and 3)
control.

In my lexicon, a wildfire is an uncontrolled fire in nature, whether started
by humans or not, accidentally or on purpose, including a fire intended to
be controlled, such as an autumn burn-off or trash incineration, which gets
out of hand. A wildfire burns many types of countryside besides forests:
fields, brush, crops, ditches, etc. There is a sense of crisis and danger
with a wildfire. ("Brush fire" and "ditch fire" come to mind as related
terms, but they seem to be merely descriptive of what's burning).

A forest fire is a fire in the woods. This can include controlled and other
non-urgent fires, as long as they are among the trees. There may or not be a
sense of urgency: fires after lightning strikes, at least where I come from
in Southeast Missouri, can burn a few trees down and smolder for days but
not harm much else. While not technically a controlled fire, it has the same
non-catastrophic results and lack of crisis.

Regarding controlled fires in the woods: Yes, landowners do it. It's rather
stupid of them, but then people also still tend to believe in the value of
the autumn field burn-offs which in my thinking ought to have been abandoned
at the time of the Jefferson administration. They light controlled fires in
the woods to clear out underbrush, but a better way is to fence the area in
and let a few hogs loose. They'll clean out everything at mouth-level in no
time, including poison ivy. Then you can get in there with machinery and
haul out the big limbs and logs.

Grant Barrett


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Jun 17 16:24:46 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 09:24:46 -0700
Subject: Coffee Shop (1831) and Turkish Sayings
In-Reply-To: <111.13ccc818.2a3da90c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.092446.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 16 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> (OED doesn't have "kaymar" or "Firna Pidese," either--ed.)

In f[undotted i]rna pidesi (literally "oven bread") the -si is 3rd person
suffix (after vowels, after consonants -i) added to "pide"to connect it as a
phrase, like Galata t"urbesi "Galata tower". I'm not terribly surprised
that the phrase isn't in the OED. It probably wouldn't be in any Turkish
dictionary as a phrase either.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU  Mon Jun 17 17:04:17 2002
From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Johnson, Ellen)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:04:17 -0400
Subject: -og words
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.130417.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

here's verification of Charles's speech from another Atlantan.

only 'dog' has the vowel of 'caught' for me, of the -og words.
I don't have the merger otherwise, i.e. don't use /a/ in all, straw, bought, but some of my students do.  some think it sounds funny though.  they are mostly from metro atlanta.

I distinguish hw/w but most of my students don't.  except I do have /w/ in whoa and wharf.  I don't use an exclamatory why, so I couldn't really judge on that one.

and 'got' does indeed have the (monophthongal) vowel of 'ride', and seems to be an anomaly among -ot words for me too.  for those who are not native southerners, you should know that this is a FRONT vowel, not the low back 'ah' sound as it is often caricatured, intentionally or not.

Ellen

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Wells [mailto:charles at FREUDE.COM]
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 11:38 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: -og words


I say "dog" with the caught vowel and all other -og words with the cob
vowel (not distinguished in my Atlanta-based dialect from the a in father).
 Like Alice Faber, I was bothered as a child by verse that rhymed dog with
other words.

I also noticed when I was young that we said "got" differently from other
-ot words, so got and hot don't rhyme; the vowel in "got" is higher, and is
the same except for length as the monophthong in "ride".  (I say "right" as
a diphthong, however.)  Thus this short vowel occurs in exactly one word in
my dialect, except when I am imitating hillbillies.  I understand that this
feature of the Atlanta dialect has been noticed by linguists.  Does that
mean it is an extra phoneme?

There are apparently phenomena like this in Cantonese and in Arabic:  In
Cantonese, there is one tone that is used in exactly one fairly common
word, nowhere else.  And in standard modern Arabic there is supposedly a
sound used only in the word "Allah" and nowhere else, but I forget the details.

My Cantonese informant once told me, "Cantonese has nine tones, but it only
uses seven."  Now just what does that mean...?

Charles WElls




Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 17 17:48:26 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:48:26 -0400
Subject: Kibby & Henna on her toes (1874)
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.134826.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SYRIAN HOME-LIFE
compiled by Rev. Isaac Riley
from the materials furnished by Rev. Henry Harris Jessup
New york: Dodd & Mead
1874

   This beats my 1875 Isabel Burton "kibbeh" by one year.  No "hummus" here.

Pg. 12:  This is the _medhwad_, or manger, such as the infant Jesus was laid in.

Pg. 31:  Besides the red, black, and yellow shoes or slippers, the people often wear _kob-kobs_.  They are wooden clgs, made of a flat piece about the shape and size of the sole of a shoe, though an inch thick...

Pg. 34:  Bedawin mothers sing:
"Come, little Bedawy, sit on my lap;
Pretty pearls shine in your little white cap;
Rings are in your ears,
Rings are in your nose,
Rings upon your fingers,
And _henna_ on your toes."
(HENNA on your toes?  Hells bells!--ed.)

Pg. 39:  ...be a rich merchant or a _kadi_...

Pg. 63:  ...placed on a divan, with a large tray of _malebbes_, or sweetmeats and confectionery...

Pg. 77:  ..._dibbs_ (molasses)...

Pg. 91:  Children are told that the _Bawhaw_ or the _Ghoul_ or the Bah'oo_ is coming to eat them up...

Pg. 102:  _Kibby_ is the Arab plum-pudding and mince-pie and roast-beef, all in one.  It is made by pounding meat in a mortar with wheat, until both are mixed into a soft pulp, and then dressed with nuts and onions and butter, and baked or roasted in cakes over the fire.
   The pottage, or _mejeddara_, is made of _oddis_.  It is like thick pea-soup, but with a peculiar flavor.

Pg. 103:  The Arabs use no knives or forks at their meals, nor have they plates for each person; but each one doubles a piece of the _markuk_ bread into a kind of three-cornered spoon, and with it, or with a wooden spoon, or his fingers, dips from the dish which he may happen to prefer.

Pg. 107:  The prickly pear, or _subire_, is a delicious fruit...

Pg. 111:  Among the Arab dainties, one of the most familiar is a dish that is made for the relatives when a boy is born; it is called _mughly_.  It is made of pounded rice, flavored with rich spices and sugar, and put into litle bowls, and almonds and other nuts sprinkled over the top.  One of these little bowls is sent to each of the friends.

Pg. 112:  ...the _kahwajees_ or coffee-men...

Pg. 122:  The Arabs call chickens "_zahr el fool_," or bean-blossoms...

Pg. 209:  Arabs call death in war the "red death."  A natural and quiet death, with forgiveness of sins, they call "white death."  "Black death" is a violent and dreadful death, as by strangling.
(OED has only a different, 1901 "white death"--ed.)

Pg. 249:  ...his _kollusy_, or monk's cap...


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 17 17:57:38 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:57:38 -0400
Subject: Shiner, Gum Shoe (1904)
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.135738.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

LITTLE CITIZENS:
THE HUMORS OF SCHOOL LIFE
by Myra Kelly
New York: McClure, Phillips & Co.
1904

   This is an early book about New York's Lower East Side.  I read (in an article on Yiddish in the AMERICAN MERCURY) that it got the dialect just right, but there's not a whole lot here.

Pg. 14:  "Isidore Belchatosky he goes und makes (Page 15--ed.) me this here shiner," said Eva's accusing voice, as the eye under the poultice was uncovered for a moment.
(OED also has a 1904 citation for "shiner"--ed.)

Pg. 55:  For well he saw the looks of admiration which were turned upon his daughter as she sat by his side and consumed cold pink lemonade.
(I have 1890s "pink lemonade" in archives--ed.)

Pg. 68:  He was then dragged through long halls and up the tall stairs by a large boy, who spoke to him disdainfully as "greenie"...

Pg. 127:  The Associate Superindent for her vicinity was the Honourable Timothy O'Shea, known and dreaded as "Gum Shoe Tim," owing to his engaging way of creeping softly up back stairs and appearing all unheralded and unwelcome, upon the threshold of his intended victim.

Pg. 204:  "I know where we can hook a banana.  And the Ginney's asleep."
("Ginney" is used in the book, but "wop" is not--ed.)


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 17 18:53:32 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:53:32 EDT
Subject: bad hair day attribution
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.145332.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A person who is sought out by the OED as the originator of "bad hair day" is
very happy to have the honor:

http://www.scrippsjschool.org/ohio_journalist.php

Not Just Another Bad Hair Day

Newspaper columnist and author Susan Swartz (BSJ ?65) doesn?t get offended
if people know her for having a bad hair day. The Oxford English Dictionary
(OED) editors have credited her as being the first to publish the term "bad
hair day."

Swartz is a nationally syndicated columnist based in Santa Rosa, Calif., who
has also written a book that was read on National Public Radio (NPR) and
performed as a play.

<<<that's all that's on the website, but the story in the print version goes
on at length. Excerpts:>>>

Prevously, the term had been traced to comedian Garry Shandling, who in 1991
complained to a magazine about having a bad hair day. But reserchers
persisted and found an earlier use of the term in one of Swartz's 1988
columns in the Houston Chronicle. . . .
  "I really kind of wanted it to be mine, but in the essence of true
fact-finding, I was helping the researcher. I thought, maybe I heard it on
Seinfeld, but that show wasn't on in 1988. I said, maybe I read it in the
'Cathy' comisc, but they researched all those," Swartz said.
  Swartz pointed out that she will be known for inventing the term "bad hair
day" just like writer Alice Kahn is known for creating the term "yuppie."
  "I truly don't know if I made it up. At that time we had teen-age girls in
the house, and as any good columnist does, I'm always stealing things from my
relatives for my writing. Maybe one of them ran out the door saying her hair
was going to look bad all day," Swartz said.
  The OED counts only who published the term first, and that was Swartz. The
sentence she wrote was: "Even those who emerge from the sea to casually braid
their shiny wet vines into a thick coil with a hibiscus on the end also have
bad-hair days."
  "Anyone who writes is hoping his or her words will be immortalized in some
way. Although this is such a silly little thing, it has been really fun," she
said.
  Swartz, who said she has endured teasing from friends, said few of them
will receive autographed copies of the OED. "You can't just go out and buy a
whole bunch of these to sign for your friends. The OED is this huge, mammoth
thing."

- Allan Metcalf


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Mon Jun 17 19:27:50 2002
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 15:27:50 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <36842572.3232970903@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.152750.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I used to keep a running list of chuckle-inducing UK place names, though
I've not been able to find it for a while. My favorite is still Nether Wallop.

Apropos of rounders: when I was working for Longman in the UK,  we used to
take the odd afternoon off, go to the Old Harlow pub, then play rounders in
the Harlow town park. It suited me fine, because you get to run whether you
actually hit the ball or not.


>There's a village near Gatwick named Pease Pottage, and I can't ride by it
>without thinking "Pease Pottage hot, Pease Pottage cold".  Btw, Bill
>Bryson's _Notes from a Small Island_ has a nice appreciation of weird UK
>placenames.
>
>Lynne
>
>


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Mon Jun 17 19:37:33 2002
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 15:37:33 -0400
Subject: tugboats
In-Reply-To: <90.27723962.2a3f5257@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.153733.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not at all exclusive to Easterners. In the Puget Sound area, folks call
boats that guide big tankers and push barges 'tugboats' as well. I'm not
sure about other large harbors in the US, but I'd be interested to know the
distribution of the term.

At 10:55 AM 6/17/02 -0400, James A. Landau wrote:

>A little while ago a barge hit and knocked down a highway bridge, which made
>national news for several days.  Many of the news reports referred to the
>"tugboat" which was pushing the barge.  That is a giveaway of an Easterner.
>A "tugboat" (there are many in New York Harbor) pushes an otherwise
>self-propelled ship around the harbor, or less often goes out into the ocean
>to pull a damaged ship to harbor...


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Jun 17 19:45:23 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:45:23 -0700
Subject: tugboats
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020617153456.009d12b0@pop-server.nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.124523.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Very true. Both in the Puget Sound area and on the Columbia River, they're
tugboats, whether they are pulling barges or pushing them. I don't recall
ever hearing of towboats here in the PNW.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Wendalyn Nichols wrote:

> Not at all exclusive to Easterners. In the Puget Sound area, folks call
> boats that guide big tankers and push barges 'tugboats' as well. I'm not
> sure about other large harbors in the US, but I'd be interested to know the
> distribution of the term.
>
> At 10:55 AM 6/17/02 -0400, James A. Landau wrote:
>
> >A little while ago a barge hit and knocked down a highway bridge, which made
> >national news for several days.  Many of the news reports referred to the
> >"tugboat" which was pushing the barge.  That is a giveaway of an Easterner.
> >A "tugboat" (there are many in New York Harbor) pushes an otherwise
> >self-propelled ship around the harbor, or less often goes out into the ocean
> >to pull a damaged ship to harbor...
>


From mkuha at BSU.EDU  Mon Jun 17 19:47:50 2002
From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:47:50 -0500
Subject: Help!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206171018590.1104017-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.144750.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, s. . . wrote:
>
> #Dear all, I would like to know if there is an
> #expression in English to wish a colleague or friend
> #"a good working day" (meaning "work well").

Sometimes I hear people say "have a good class" to someone who is about to
go into a classroom, but obviously the meaning is limited to part of the day
and to academic work.
mk


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Jun 17 20:12:50 2002
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:12:50 -0400
Subject: -og words
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.161250.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:04 PM 6/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>here's verification of Charles's speech from another Atlantan.
>
>only 'dog' has the vowel of 'caught' for me, of the -og words.
>I don't have the merger otherwise, i.e. don't use /a/ in all, straw,
>bought, but some of my students do.  some think it sounds funny
>though.  they are mostly from metro atlanta.
>...
>and 'got' does indeed have the (monophthongal) vowel of 'ride', and seems
>to be an anomaly among    -ot words for me too.  for those who are not
>native southerners, you should know that this is a FRONT vowel, not the
>low back 'ah' sound as it is often caricatured, intentionally or not.
>
>Ellen

I learned this last lesson from Natalie Maynor, who corrected my
monophthongizing of /ai/. I naively used low-back 'script a' and she said
"No no, it's [a], i.e., 'print a', not higher but farther front.


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Charles Wells [mailto:charles at FREUDE.COM]
>Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 11:38 AM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: -og words
>
>
>I say "dog" with the caught vowel and all other -og words with the cob
>vowel (not distinguished in my Atlanta-based dialect from the a in father).
>  Like Alice Faber, I was bothered as a child by verse that rhymed dog with
>other words.
>
>I also noticed when I was young that we said "got" differently from other
>-ot words, so got and hot don't rhyme; the vowel in "got" is higher, and is
>the same except for length as the monophthong in "ride".  (I say "right" as
>a diphthong, however.)  Thus this short vowel occurs in exactly one word in
>my dialect, except when I am imitating hillbillies.  I understand that this
>feature of the Atlanta dialect has been noticed by linguists.  Does that
>mean it is an extra phoneme?
>
>Charles Wells

I don't understand why you'd use the fronted 'print a' when imitating
hillbillies.  Just which hillbillies do you have in mind?  Southern Ohio
"hillbillies" don't monophthongize to [a]; they use a farther back
semi-rounded vowel, midway between 'script a' (ah) and 'backward C' (O, to
use the symbol previous writers have used).  And this may indeed be an
extra phoneme in this area, as it is in Pittsburgh and western PA and
eastern Canada (not to mention England).



_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 17 21:50:51 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:50:51 EDT
Subject: tugboats
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.175051.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/17/02 3:31:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM writes:

> Not at all exclusive to Easterners. In the Puget Sound area, folks call
>  boats that guide big tankers and push barges 'tugboats' as well. I'm not
>  sure about other large harbors in the US, but I'd be interested to know the
>  distribution of the term.

The English word "tugboat" is used world-wide.  I mentioned "Easterners"
because I was discussing news reports and most national news reporting comes
out of either New York or Washington.  Not that many in either New York or
Washington would recognize the regional word "towboat".  My guess is that the
on-the-spot reports that went to the national news media used "towboat" and
the people in the New York offices understandably read that as a misprint for
"tugboat".  I did notice that after a couple of days "tugboat" dropped out of
the news reports and "towboat" came in---presumably corrections caught up
with the stories.

It is an interesting question why pushing a barge should be called "towing"
(and a group of barges being pushed by one powered boat is a "barge tow").
My guess is that the term dates back to canal-boat days, when "barge" meant a
canal boat which was propelled by being pulled ("towed") by a mule.  The same
usage of "tow" meaning "pull" survives today in "tow truck".  However, once
specialized river boats were built for pushing barges (by which time most
canals had gone out of business), people insisted that a barge, whether on a
river or a canal, was "towed" and refused to admit the landlubber word
"push".  Technical jargon.

By the way, "tug" also means "pull" but a tugboat PUSHES.

At Louisville (actually across the river on the Indiana shore) there is a
very nice restaurant on a barge.  The name of the restaurant is "Towboat
Annie's".

     - Jim Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 17 23:50:58 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:50:58 EDT
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicons I, II, III
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.195058.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the NEW YORK SUN.  Daily Candy Lexicon III is in today's SUN (Monday,
6-17-2002), but the other two are from before the newspaper began!  See
www.dailycandy.com.  That web site encourages you to send "Daily Candy" to a
friend.  This is for scholarly slang use only, not for profit, and all rights
are reserved with "Daily Candy."

DAILY CANDY LEXICON III (June 17, 2002)

He's a lot of yabba dabba and not a lot of do."
Used to refer to someone who is all talk and no action. "I smoke O.P.'s."
As in "I smoke other people's cigarettes." While you know how we feel about <A HREF="http://www.dailycandy.com/candy/article.jsp?ArticleId=15206&city=1">
smoking</A>, it's nice to see the chronic moocher have a sense of humor about it
and 'fess up to her bad habit."Mitin"
More information than I needed. "I have that T-shirt."
Been there, done that.And our personal favorite, a new support group started
by a dear, dear friend. . .F.L.A.C.I.D.
Pronounced "flaccid." Acronym for Failed Lovers Against Caller ID. Don't say
you haven't been there. We all have.

DAILY CANDY LEXICON I (Yes, I got it out of order--ed.)

Girleen (n): 1. A young sassy woman. Also used as a term of affection for a
good friend: "Hey, girleen, you are an inspiration to us all." Swish (adj):
1. Very suave, smooth, or cool: "Wow, you're looking awfully swish this eve,"
or "Wow, I saw Amy last night, and, gee, she was so swish in her fantastic
shoes!" Shoppings (n): 1. The product amassed from a day out at the shops. (A
term discovered at Fifth Avenue and 56th Street on a recent summer day amid
of gaggle of tourists. Woman, holding up Barneys bag: "Babette! Look at my
shoppings!") Mwah (v): 1. A sound uttered in protest (when "waaahhh" becomes
too whiny). 2. A kissing sound, most commonly used at the close of a letter
in lieu of "xoxoxoxo." Skew-wiff (adj): 1. All messy, disheveled. Colloquial
British term somehow derived from "askew" (pronounced Skeeeeewiff): "Her hair
was all skew-wiff; she looked like she'd just woken up."

DAILY CANDY LEXICON II

Intie (n.): 1. The intimacy flu. Usually occurs 2 to 3 weeks into a budding
dating relationship. Symptoms include unreturned phone calls, "mistakenly"
deleted e-mails, and sleeping on far edge of the bed. Stray (n.): 1. A
heterosexual male who everyone secretly thinks is gay. Tine-gid-ish?: 1. Very
fast, slurred word designated for asking the question "What time is it?" when
one is just too darn busy to enunciate.Flossin' (v.): 1. To drive around in a
nice car with the top down. 2. Generally living large; living life well. 3.
That sexy activity endorsed by dental hygienists and other anal-retentive
folk. (Just kidding! We floss regularly).D.I.T. (n.): 1. A diva-in-training.
(No further explanation necessary. You know who you are).


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 18 00:51:36 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:51:36 EDT
Subject: Kibby (1844), Old Woman's Hair (1844) and much more
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.205136.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE MODERN SYRIANS;
OR, NATIVE SOCIETY IN DAMASCUS, ALEPPO, AND THE MOUNTAINS OF THE DRUZES
FROM NOTES MADE IN THOSE PARTS DURING THE YEARS 1841-2-3
by An Oriental Student
(Andrew A. Paton on catnyp--ed.)
London: Longman, Brown, Green, and Longmans
1844

Pg. 22:  The sherbet stalls and confectioners' shops are unique: here is the
broad platter of honey pastry (kunafeh), and the sauce of pomegrante grains
(hab-erraman), in its huge curiously carved and shining goblet...

Pg. 97:  At midday they dine: the dishes most in vogue are kibby, or chopped
meat and corn formed into balls and fried, rice rolled in boiled vine-leaves
(Pg. 98--ed.), various sorts of salads. and omelettes with herbs.
(Merriam-Webster has 1937 for "kibbeh."  OED has no entry at all--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
PERSIAN LIFE AND CUSTOMS
by the Rev. Samuel Graham Wilson
second edition
Edinburgh: Oliphant Anderson and Ferrier
1896

Pg. 129:  The _matsoon_ or _yogurt_ is a curd made by putting rennet in the
heated milk and letting it sour for several days.
(Several "madzoon" hits are in ADS-L archive.  Not in the revised OED?--ed.)

Pg. 249:  Among the favorite confections is _gaz_.  It is made from the juice
of the tamarisk-tree and has a delicious flavor...

Pg. 250:  ..._khulva_, a taffy of molasses and nuts, rock-candy, and
_peshmak_, which is made of sugar and butter, crystallized like snowflakes or
thistle-down, and formed into pyramids, cones, and other shapes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MEMOIRS OF A BABYLONIAN PRINCESS
written by herself
(Maria Theresa Asmar is on catnyp.  No, it's not Cher--she's Armenian--ed.)
in two volumes
London: Henry Colburn
1844

VOLUME ONE
Pg. 57:  Amongst the dishes which succeeded to these were a lamb, stuffed
with all sorts of herbs, rice, and pistachios, which was served up whole,
saffron being added, for the double purpose of giving it colour and flavour;
a number of roast fowls; stuffed gourds; two or three large dishes of a
vegetable, (Pg. 58--ed.) called "bamia;" and a dish made of a veal hash,
enveloped in vine leaves; "coobba" which is a crust made of green corn and
hashed meat, filled with a hash of beef and herbs, called "shar al ajouz," or
old woman's hair, of delicious flavour, and made up into globes, as large as
a man's head; many dishes of "kabap," or "kabob," as it is more usually
written, which is a kind of sausage meat, cooked on an iron rod; together
with a host of other recondite preparations, the names of which have passed
from my memory.

Pg. 59:  I had almost forgotten to mention the "nuckel," or dessert, which,
in its way, was in no wise inferior to the dinner.  There was a substance
having the consistency of snow, which is found on the leaves of trees, of a
green colour, having a delicious sweet taste, called in the Chaldean language
"gasgoul," and in Arabic "man al sama."  There were also the figs of Jebel
SInjar (a mountain to the northwest of Mosul,) of enormous size, some of them
being not less than six inches in length; the "laimoun halou," or sweet
orange, from Bagdad and Bassorah, a fruit almost as large as aa shaddock,
greatly resembling the orange in size and appearance, but far excelling that
fruit in smoothness of skin and sweetness of flavour.  So abundant is this
fruit in Mesopotamia that twelve are sold for a penny.  "Hammas," a sort of
kernel, resembling a dried harvest bean, which is roasted after the manner of
coffee; to which may be added pistachio nuts, pomegranates, and grapes.

Pg. 239:  Camel load, after camel load, poured into the camp, consisting of
flour biscuit, and rice; beside quantities of "basterma," (Pg. 240--ed.) a
kind of sausage, which is dried, and keeps well for a considerable length of
time; "kaourma," a preparation of hashed beef or mutton, cooked in grease and
crammed into skins, which is dished up, during the journey, with dates and
herbs, and makes a very palatable dish; "halawah," a sweet solid substance,
composed of "simsim," described in my account of the manufactures of Telkef,
honey, and other ingredients.

Pg. 299:  We had an excellent dinner.  Besides roasts, pillaws, kababs,
sambousack, and other dishes usually found at eastern tables, I tasted here a
dish called "jild el faras," literally horses skin, which is a preparation of
the Damascus apricots, so celebrated for their flavour and size, which are
boiled in a mass, till they become a thick marmalade.  This marmalade is
reduced to a tolerable consistency, and then rolled out into a large sheet, a
yard square, not thicker than the eighth part of an inch, which is then
rolled like a wafer.  The flavour is delicious.  At this dinner, too, wine
was served of various kinds; one of which, I remember, I found extremely
agreeable.  It was called Nebid el Asfar; it was of a gold colour, and I
learned that the Italians import a considerable quantity of it.

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 116:  We were provided with a stock of basterma, a kind of dried sausage
meat, or beef or mutton, mingled with spices, salted and dried, and eaten
either raw or broiled; kaorma, beef or mutton cut into pieces, and cooked in
its own fat, mingled with salt, spices, and savory herbs, which keeps for a
length of time; Cyprus cheese, (Pg. 117--ed.) which is delicious when
roasted; rice, dates, and other dry provisions.

Pg. 117:   Here we were soon visited by our friends in the town, to whom
intelligence had been forwarded of our arrival, and who immediately came
forth to meet us, bringing with them presents of a most acceptable kind, such
as lambs and fowls, besides a great abundance of the delicious fruits of
Jaffa (food fit for the dwellers of Paradise), bahmia and "ardeshaouk,"
artichokes (literally, "thorn of the earth"), as large as a good sized
pumpkin, and other vegetables.  Jaffa produces no fewer than two-and-thirty
different kinds of figs.

Pg. 179:  The Princess breakfasted alone in her room, on sherbet, a soup of
chickens, rice milk, kaimagh (cream cheese), kharisha (a cheese containing
odoriferous herbs from Mount Carmel,) dried fruits, and sweets of  different
kinds.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Tue Jun 18 05:03:11 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 22:03:11 -0700
Subject: Back to "why", "why"
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.220311.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Charles will be pleased that I found, in surveying the Southerners in our
department, that our two Georgians both claim (I didn't check it out
personally) to pronounce both interrogative and exclamatory "why" with
/hw/, though one has a monophthong [footnote: Beverly, this is what Jim
Sledd long ago called the "Confederate vowel"; you can get a nice minimal
pair contrast with "Tam", "time", "Tom" for some Texas speakers -- this
probably wouldn't work so nicely in Georgia, where "Tom" is more likely to
have a back rounded vowel)] in the interrogative, and a diphthong in the
exclamatory.

        One north Alabama speaker and one north Texas speaker did make the
/hw/:/w/ contrast that dInIs attests, and I checked with my mother (98),
from East Texas, and found that she also makes the distinction, giving it
some time depth.

        Rudy


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Jun 18 08:30:18 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:30:18 +0100
Subject: precrime
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.093018.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry noted the word 'precrime' the other day.  It seems to have taken hold
in the new US Catholic Bishops' policy on sexual abuse:

(from the AP:)
The new charter reads, "Diocesan policy will provide that for even a single
act of sexual abuse of a minor -- past, present or future -- the offending
priest or deacon will be permanently removed from ministry."

How future acts are determined is not stated, but perhaps they have some
divine assistance.

Tata,
Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 18 10:46:22 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:46:22 EDT
Subject: Ted Turner removes all doubt; Hummus (1873) and Syrian Food
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.064622.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TED TURNER OPENS HIS MOUTH AND REMOVES ALL DOUBT

CNN chief accuses Israel of terror

Oliver Burkeman in New York and Peter Beaumont in Jerusalem
Tuesday June 18, 2002
<A HREF="http://www.guardian.co.uk/">The Guardian</A>

Ted Turner, the billionaire founder of CNN, accuses Israel today of engaging
in "terrorism" against the Palestinians, in comments that threaten to lead to
a further decline in the news network's already poor relations with the
Jewish state. "Aren't the Israelis and the Palestinians both terrorising each
other?" says Turner, who is vice-chairman of AOL Time Warner, which owns CNN,
in an exclusive interview with the Guardian. "The Palestinians are fighting
with human suicide bombers, that's all they have. The Israelis ... they've
got one of the most powerful military machines in the world. The Palestinians
have nothing. So who are the terrorists? I would make a case that both sides
are involved in terrorism." His remarks were last night condemned by Ariel
Sharon's government, which called them "stupid". Andrea Levin, director of
the American pro-Israeli media watchdog Camera, said the comments were a
"reprehensible" attempt to "blur the line between perpetrator and victim". In
his first British interview since the September 11 attacks, Mr Turner - who
broke philanthropic records in 1997 when he donated $1bn to the UN - argues
that poverty and desperation are the root cause of Palestinian suicide
bombings. But Daniel Seaman, a spokesman for the Israeli government, said:
"My only advice to Ted Turner is if people assume you are stupid, it is just
best to keep your mouth shut rather than open your mouth and confirm everyone
in that view." Mr Turner also admits that he was wrong to call the September
11 hijackers "brave" in a speech in Rhode Island that sparked outrage. "I
made an unfortunate choice of words," he says.. (...)

   ASK YAHOO! discussed this on January 15, 2001 (http://www.ask.yahoo.c
om/20010115.html).  Variously given as "It is better to stay silent and have
people think you a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt," it's
been attributed to Abraham Lincoln, George Eliot, Mark Twain, Albert
Einstein, Groucho Marx, and SIlvan Engel.
   A check of the Making of America database didn't turn up anything, but I
could have used the wrong terms.  We all await Fred Shapiro to remove all
doubt on the origin of this famous phrase.

(OFF TOPIC:  So this guy gives one billion dollars to the United Nations,
where the head of the Security Council is Syria...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
HUMMUS AND SYRIAN FOOD

   Politics, however, should not get in the way of food.
   I had previously cited SYRIAN HOME-LIFE (1874), compiled by Rev. Isaac
Riley based on materials by Rev. Henry Harris Jessup.  I noticed that THE
WOMEN OF THE ARABS (1873) by Henry Harris Jessup is on the MOA-Mich. Books
database, and it appears to be almost the exact same book.  "Hummus" is given
there as "peas."  Take a look.  I did not expect this book on "Making of
America."  (Merriam-Webster has 1950 for "hummus.")

YOUR GUIDE TO SYRIA
by Nina Nelson
London: Alvin Redman
1966

   This has a late date, but I like the food section.  The same author also
wrote YOUR GUIDE TO EGYPT (1964), YOUR GUIDE TO LEBANON (1965), and YOUR
GUIDE TO JORDAN (1966), but the NYPL doesn't have all of those to compare.
   FWIW, no "falafel" is here.

Pg. 67:  SYRIAN FOOD, RECIPES AND DRINKS
Pg. 68:  KEBAB...BURGHAL...KIBBEH.
Pg. 69:  MAHSHI...KIBBEH in a tray.
(OED for "mahshi"?--ed.)
Pg. 70:
   RIZ BEL FOUL (Rice with beans)...
   MECHWI
      This is minced roast meat mixed with onions and tomatoes.
   KHAROUF MECHOUT
      This is stuffed roast lamb.
   SHAWARMA
      This is also a Lebanese meat dish and a great favourite.  _Shawarma_
consists of thin slices of mutton or lamb marinated in a mixture of vinegar,
onion and cardamom seeds (ground together with salt).  The meat is then
speared on a spit with a slice of fat in between each of f(Pg. 71--ed.) our
slices.  The top of the spit is decorated with a tomato or lemon.
(OED doesn't have "shawarma"??  Don't worry.  Nobody's heard of this.  It's
not like they serve it in _five_ restaurants around the block from the NYU
library--ed.)
Pg. 71:  MEZZA...LEBAN
Pg. 72:  HOMOS...TABBOULEH SALAD...AWAMEH
Pg. 73:
   NAMORA
      This is made of brown sugar, pin kernals and pistachios.
   HALAWET AL JUBAN (Sweet of cheese)
      This is a specialty of Hama and is white cheese mixed with fine rice
beaten together with lemon juice until it looks like unbaked pastry.
(I don't remember eating it during my visit to Hama--ed.)
   BAQLAWA...
   ARABIC BREAD...
Pg. 74:
   DRINKS...
      Some people prefer more sugar than others but the medium sweet type
called "Mazbout" is what suits most tastes.  This is made in the following
way...
Pg. 75:  SALTED PISTACHIO NUTS.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 18 10:54:48 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:54:48 EDT
Subject: Ted Turner removes all doubt; Hummus (1873) and Syrian Food
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.065448.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Pg. 73:  NAMORA...pine kernels..


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Jun 18 13:52:59 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:52:59 -0400
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicons I, II, III
In-Reply-To: <49.1f101425.2a3fcfe2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.095259.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

#DAILY CANDY LEXICON III (June 17, 2002)
#
#"I smoke O.P.'s." As in "I smoke other people's cigarettes."

I heard this one at least as early as late sixties. It reminds me of:
        "You want some ABC gum?"
        "Sure. What's ABC?"
        "Already Been Chewed."

(I realize a mooched OP cigarette is clean from the pack. It was just
free association.)

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Jun 18 14:10:23 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:10:23 -0400
Subject: precrime
In-Reply-To: <61534485.3233381418@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.101023.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Lynne Murphy wrote:

#Barry noted the word 'precrime' the other day.  It seems to have taken hold
#in the new US Catholic Bishops' policy on sexual abuse:
#
#(from the AP:)
#The new charter reads, "Diocesan policy will provide that for even a single
#act of sexual abuse of a minor -- past, present or future -- the offending
#priest or deacon will be permanently removed from ministry."
#
#How future acts are determined is not stated, but perhaps they have some
#divine assistance.

Ah. The concept, not the word.

And even the concept is present only if one insists on an unlikely
reading. As I read this, they mean "A single act of sexual abuse of a
minor by a priest or deacon -- whether long ago [past: maybe beyond the
statute of limitations], recent [present: still subject to action by the
law], or *subsequent to the adoption of this policy* [future] -- will
result in ..."

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mkuha at BSU.EDU  Tue Jun 18 14:17:13 2002
From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:17:13 -0500
Subject: precrime
In-Reply-To: <61534485.3233381418@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.091713.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 6/18/02 3:30 AM, Lynne Murphy wrote:

> Barry noted the word 'precrime' the other day.  It seems to have taken hold
> in the new US Catholic Bishops' policy on sexual abuse:
>
> (from the AP:)
> The new charter reads, "Diocesan policy will provide that for even a single
> act of sexual abuse of a minor -- past, present or future -- the offending
> priest or deacon will be permanently removed from ministry."
>
> How future acts are determined is not stated, but perhaps they have some
> divine assistance.

On the basis of "Minority Report" sneak peeks, I'd say all it takes is Tom
Cruise's assistance.
mk


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 18 14:27:02 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:27:02 -0400
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicons I, II, III
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206180949410.2127259-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.102702.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:52:59AM -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> #DAILY CANDY LEXICON III (June 17, 2002)
> #
> #"I smoke O.P.'s." As in "I smoke other people's cigarettes."
>
> I heard this one at least as early as late sixties. It reminds me of:

HDAS has this to 1929, and "O.P." (not with the genitive) from decades
earlier.

Jesse Sheidlower


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 18 16:58:26 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 12:58:26 -0400
Subject: Ted Turner removes all doubt; Hummus (1873) and Syrian Food
In-Reply-To: <112.132355a5.2a40697e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.125826.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

First, a personal political note:  I spend a lot of my time arguing
pro-Israeli positions against my father-in-law, who is a strong
Palestinian sympathizer.  But, in the face of Barry's comments about Ted
Turner, I feel I have to speak up and say that I believe there is some
truth, perhaps considerable truth, in what Ted Turner says (not about the
hijackers being brave, which, although true in some literal sense, is a
really stupid comment, but about terror being bilateral).

As for the quotation, "It is better to stay silent and have people think
you a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt," this is a
proverb or pseudo-Lincolnism.  The earliest citation for it in the files
of the Yale Dictionary of Quotations is dated 1931; in the 1931 occurrence
it is attributed to Lincoln.  There is no evidence of Lincoln actually
having said this.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Heaberlin at SWT.EDU  Tue Jun 18 17:59:12 2002
From: Heaberlin at SWT.EDU (Dickie Heaberlin)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 12:59:12 -0500
Subject: Back to "why", "why"
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.125912.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This south Texan contrasts /hw/ and /w/ in the two "why"s.

Dickie M. Heaberlin

Rudolph C Troike wrote:

> Charles will be pleased that I found, in surveying the Southerners in our
> department, that our two Georgians both claim (I didn't check it out
> personally) to pronounce both interrogative and exclamatory "why" with
> /hw/, though one has a monophthong [footnote: Beverly, this is what Jim
> Sledd long ago called the "Confederate vowel"; you can get a nice minimal
> pair contrast with "Tam", "time", "Tom" for some Texas speakers -- this
> probably wouldn't work so nicely in Georgia, where "Tom" is more likely to
> have a back rounded vowel)] in the interrogative, and a diphthong in the
> exclamatory.
>
>         One north Alabama speaker and one north Texas speaker did make the
> /hw/:/w/ contrast that dInIs attests, and I checked with my mother (98),
> from East Texas, and found that she also makes the distinction, giving it
> some time depth.
>
>         Rudy


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Jun 19 00:00:42 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:00:42 -0400
Subject: Cup of Joe
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.200042.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        The OED says only that the origin of "joe," as in a cuppa joe (coffee), is unknown, but the U.S. Navy has its own theory:

        >>Josephus Daniels (18 May 1862-15 January 1948) was appointed Secretary of the Navy by President Woodrow Wilson in 1913. Among his reforms of the Navy were inaugurating the practice of making 100 Sailors from the Fleet eligible for entrance into the Naval Academy, the introduction of women into the service, and the abolishment of the officers' wine mess. From that time on, the strongest drink aboard Navy ships could only be coffee and over the years, a cup of coffee became known as "a cup of Joe". <<

        From http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/traditions/html/navyterm.html

        Does this have any validity?


John Baker


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Jun 19 00:39:03 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:39:03 -0700
Subject: Cup of Joe
In-Reply-To: <D9BA04198D5C154F901F45D28E4866B5012D41B4@phex01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.173903.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's plausible. RHHDAS records the term from 1930 and it is a term used
particularly in the Navy. The earliest cites in both the OED and RHHDAS are
US Navy/Marine Corps usages. Barry Popik might have an antedating of these
sources.

The Daniels explanation reeks of urban legend, but that doesn't mean it
isn't true. I don't know of any evidence to contradict it.

RHHDAS includes a suggestion that it may be from the 1860 Stephen Foster
song "Old Black Joe," an etymology suggested by another naval source. The
Foster song, however, doesn't have anything to do with coffee. This one
sounds like even more of a stretch, although not as cutesy as the Daniels
suggestion.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Baker, John
> Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 5:01 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Cup of Joe
>
>
>         The OED says only that the origin of "joe," as in a
> cuppa joe (coffee), is unknown, but the U.S. Navy has its own theory:
>
>         >>Josephus Daniels (18 May 1862-15 January 1948) was
> appointed Secretary of the Navy by President Woodrow Wilson
> in 1913. Among his reforms of the Navy were inaugurating the
> practice of making 100 Sailors from the Fleet eligible for
> entrance into the Naval Academy, the introduction of women
> into the service, and the abolishment of the officers' wine
> mess. From that time on, the strongest drink aboard Navy
> ships could only be coffee and over the years, a cup of
> coffee became known as "a cup of Joe". <<
>
>         From
> http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/traditions/html/navyterm.html
>
>         Does this have any validity?
>
>
> John Baker
>


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Jun 19 01:20:14 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:20:14 -0400
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicons I, II, III
In-Reply-To: <20020618142702.GA1253@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.212014.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        [Barry P]
#> #DAILY CANDY LEXICON III (June 17, 2002)
#> #
#> #"I smoke O.P.'s." As in "I smoke other people's cigarettes."

        [Mark M]
#> I heard this one at least as early as late sixties. It reminds me of:

        [Jesse S]
#HDAS has this to 1929, and "O.P." (not with the genitive) from decades
#earlier.

I take the /-z/ as plural, as in "Marlboros", not genitive.

-- Mark M.


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Jun 19 01:29:21 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:29:21 -0400
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20020617112326.00b6fcd0@mail.oberlin.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.212921.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Charles Wells wrote:

#I say "dog" with the caught vowel and all other -og words with the cob
#vowel (not distinguished in my Atlanta-based dialect from the a in father).

Exactly the same for me. My parents were NYC-born, and I grew up
Westchester and then NYC.

I have picked up an occasional "caught" pronunciation of "frog", which
as far as I can tell I use only in songs and rhymes where it rhymes with
"dog" and in what might be broadly called "dialect" in telling jokes and
stories.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 19 01:34:24 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:34:24 EDT
Subject: Cup of Joe
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.213424.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/18/2002 7:58:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes:

> Josephus Daniels (18 May 1862-15 January 1948) was appointed Secretary of
the
> Navy by President Woodrow Wilson in 1913. Among his reforms of the Navy
were
> inaugurating the practice of making 100 Sailors from the Fleet eligible for
> entrance into the Naval Academy, the introduction of women into the
service,
> and the abolishment of the officers' wine mess. From that time on, the
> strongest drink aboard Navy ships could only be coffee and over the years,
a
> cup of coffee became known as "a cup of Joe".

While it is true that General Order 99, issued by Josephus Daniels on 1 June
1914, did abolish officers' wine messes, these wine messes had only been in
existence since being authorized by Article 1080 of the Navy Regulations in
1893.  Aside from these wine messes, the Navy had been dry since
<begin quote>
the spirit ration was discontinued by act of Congress on 14 July 1862.
"Distilled spirituous liquors" were also banned from all naval vessels
"except as medical stores and upon the order and under the control of the
medical officers of such vessels." Those who are entitled to the spirit
ration will receive a commutation payment of 5 cents per day (in addition to
their regular pay) beginning 1 September [1862].
<end quote>

One wonders whether the abolition of the officers' wine messes in an
otherwise dry Navy was a significant enough event to have inspired a nickname
for coffee.

ref: "Alcohol in the Navy, 1794-1935" on a FAQ list by the Dept. of the Navy,
Naval Historical Center, URL http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq32-1.htm

    - Jim Landau

PS Speaking of urban legends, a naval officer who had much to do with
abolishing spirits in the Navy was the Civil War Admiral Andrew H. Foote.
After the Battle of Fort Henry, Foote, a very religious man given to
preaching sermons to his crews, gave a sermon in which he was quoted as
stating, "Let not thy heart be troubled; Ye believe in God, believe also in
the gunboats."

Unfortunately the story is apochryphal, having been perpetrated by Foote's
nine-year-old niece.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 19 01:52:08 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:52:08 -0400
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206182126470.2257589-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.215208.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:29 PM -0400 6/18/02, Mark A Mandel wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Charles Wells wrote:
>
>#I say "dog" with the caught vowel and all other -og words with the cob
>#vowel (not distinguished in my Atlanta-based dialect from the a in father).
>
>Exactly the same for me. My parents were NYC-born, and I grew up
>Westchester and then NYC.
>
>I have picked up an occasional "caught" pronunciation of "frog", which
>as far as I can tell I use only in songs and rhymes where it rhymes with
>"dog" and in what might be broadly called "dialect" in telling jokes and
>stories.
>
Ditto on everything except the frog, which never rhymes with "dog"
for me.  And I suppose nothing else does; funny, I never thought of
"dog" as an "orange" or "silver" word, but I guess it is (for me).

L


From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU  Wed Jun 19 01:53:59 2002
From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:53:59 -0500
Subject: Cup of Joe
In-Reply-To: <4a.d1c76ba.2a4139a0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.205359.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 6/18/02 8:34 PM, James A. Landau at JJJRLandau at AOL.COM wrote:

> In a message dated 06/18/2002 7:58:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes:
>
>> Josephus Daniels (18 May 1862-15 January 1948) was appointed Secretary of
> the
>> Navy by President Woodrow Wilson in 1913. Among his reforms of the Navy
> were
>> inaugurating the practice of making 100 Sailors from the Fleet eligible for
>> entrance into the Naval Academy, the introduction of women into the
> service,
>> and the abolishment of the officers' wine mess. From that time on, the
>> strongest drink aboard Navy ships could only be coffee and over the years,
> a
>> cup of coffee became known as "a cup of Joe".
>
(snip)
>
> One wonders whether the abolition of the officers' wine messes in an
> otherwise dry Navy was a significant enough event to have inspired a nickname
> for coffee.

I've always assumed that 'joe' was directly related to 'java'.

DMLance


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Wed Jun 19 03:02:27 2002
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:02:27 -0500
Subject: silly and off-topic
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.220227.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Ar. USA we have Toad Suck Ferry, that's in addition to "56", Old Joe, and
others
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wendalyn Nichols" <wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: silly and off-topic


> I used to keep a running list of chuckle-inducing UK place names, though
> I've not been able to find it for a while. My favorite is still Nether
Wallop.
>
> Apropos of rounders: when I was working for Longman in the UK,  we used to
> take the odd afternoon off, go to the Old Harlow pub, then play rounders
in
> the Harlow town park. It suited me fine, because you get to run whether
you
> actually hit the ball or not.
>
>
> >There's a village near Gatwick named Pease Pottage, and I can't ride by
it
> >without thinking "Pease Pottage hot, Pease Pottage cold".  Btw, Bill
> >Bryson's _Notes from a Small Island_ has a nice appreciation of weird UK
> >placenames.
> >
> >Lynne
> >
> >
>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Jun 19 04:41:56 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 00:41:56 -0400
Subject: Cup of Joe
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.004156.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Now that I've had a chance to look at RHHDAS:
 
I too always have assumed that there was a connection between joe and java, but the sounds are not terribly close and the only real connections seemed to be contextual.  On the other hand, the theory quoted in my earlier message just has an improbable feel to it.  
 
The first two quotes from RHHDAS may be relevant.  The first quote is from Irwin, American Tramp and Underworld Slang (1930):  "Joe. - Coffee."  So the earliest use isn't in the Navy after all, though of course 1930 is late enough that a Navy derivation is still possible.
 
The second quote, from Erdman's Reserve Officer's Manual (1931):  "Jamoke, Java, Joe.  Coffee.  Derived from the words Java and Mocha, where originally the best coffee came from . . .  Jilpot.  Coffee pot.  A corruption of 'joe-pot.'"  So the connection is also with jamoke, which dates back to 1895 in RHHDAS.  And cuppa jamoke ==> cuppa joe seems an entirely plausible progression.
 
So I guess the Navy's theory can't entirely be ruled out, but a derivation from jamoke seems far more likely.
 
John Baker

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: Donald M Lance [mailto:lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU] 
	Sent: Tue 6/18/2002 9:53 PM 
	To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
	Cc: 
	Subject: Re: Cup of Joe
	

	
	I've always assumed that 'joe' was directly related to 'java'.
	
	DMLance
	
	


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 19 07:04:21 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 03:04:21 EDT
Subject: Air Fries, Fakin' Bacon, Vegannaise, Nayonaise, Conscious Cuisine
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.030421.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

AIR FRIES, FAKIN' BACON, VEGANNAISE, NAYONAISE, CONSCIOUS CUISINE

   I checked out the menu at Better Burger NYC, 565 Third Avenue at 37th
Street, NYC, 10016, (212) 949-7528, www.betterburgernyc.com.  The place
(conceived by Louis Lanza) received some reviews starting November 2001, so
it seems to be new.
   "Air Fries," or "air-baked fries," caught my attention.  I see a new slang
phrase in this:  "Do you want air with that?"
   None of the terms in the subject line above can be found in that great
scholarly work, THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999) by John
Mariani.

AIR FRIES--115 Google hits.  AIR FRY is a trademark registered in 1990 and
1995; AIR FRIES has a first use of 1991; AIRFIRES has a first use of June
1996.

FAKIN' BACON--282 Google hits.  FAKIN' BACON is a trademark with first use on
September 30, 1984.

VEGANNAISE--37 Google hits.  Not trademarked.

NAYONNAISE--287 Google hits.  Not trademarked.

NAYONAISE--460 Google hits.  Trademarked with first use on October 19, 1987.

CONSCIOUS CUISINE--Probably from "health conscious."  188 Google hits.
CONSCIOUS COOKERY (NEW AGE VEGETARIAN CUISINE) (1977) by Ved Kaur Khalia and
CONSCIOUS CUISINE: HEALTHFUL COOKING FOR A LIFE IN BALANCE (2002) by Cary
Neff are two book titles.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
JERUSALEM NEWS (1919-1920)
   The only place that has this in the US seems to be the NYPL annex.  A
librarian was puzzled why an 80-year-old newspaper like this wasn't on
microfilm, and he told me not to get my hopes up.  My annex request came back
today as "not on shelf."   An important early record of 20th-century
Palestine--disappeared?

TED TURNER'S COMMENTS (reply to Fred)
   Not to get too off-topic here, but Turner's comments were totally
off-base.  The homicide/suicide bombers are driven by poverty?  I heard that
with 9-11, and then it turned out that the terrorists were well educated and
well-funded.  I've seen poverty all around the world, but not everyone
murders kids at a Bat Mitzvah.  I'd feel far happier when atrocities like
that are universally condemned in places like the UN.  We can start with
places like the New York Times.


From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST  Wed Jun 19 07:09:53 2002
From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:09:53 +0200
Subject: Ted Turner removes all doubt...
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.090953.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry Popik quotes:
>Daniel Seaman, a spokesman for the Israeli government, said:
>"My only advice to Ted Turner is if people assume you are stupid, it is just
>best to keep your mouth shut rather than open your mouth and confirm everyone
>in that view." (...)
>  ASK YAHOO! discussed this on January 15, 2001
> (http://www.ask.yahoo.com/20010115.html).
>Variously given as "It is better to stay silent and have
>people think you a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt," it's
>been attributed to Abraham Lincoln, George Eliot, Mark Twain, Albert
>Einstein, Groucho Marx, and SIlvan Engel.
 >  A check of the Making of America database didn't turn up anything (...)

A look in the Bible (Proverbs 17, 28) gives you the probable origin of all the variations:
"Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding."

Jan Ivarsson
jan.ivarsson at transedit.st


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 19 07:44:26 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 03:44:26 EDT
Subject: Jack Buck's "That's a winner!"
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.034426.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Sports broadecaster Jack Buck has died.  He wrote an autobiography titled
THAT'S A WINNER!--his catchphrase.  I've been looking around for other
catchphrases, but I can't find them.
   I'll go through his book when I have time.
   From today's NEW YORK TIMES obituary (which re-titles his autobiography
without the punctuation):

Jack Buck, Measured Voice of Cardinals Baseball, Dies at 77

By RICHARD SANDOMIR

ack Buck, whose nearly 50 years as the voice of the St. Louis Cardinals
positioned him to describe the baseball exploits of Stan Musial and Mark
McGwire and to work alongside his son, died yesterday. He was 77.. (...)

Those national jobs led to some of his best-remembered calls, including Game
1 of the 1988 World Series. In the bottom of the ninth inning, Kirk Gibson,
the Dodgers' star slugger, struggling to walk on two injured legs, came up as
a pinch-hitter to face Oakland's Dennis Eckersley.

"Gibson swings and a fly ball to deep right field," Buck said. "This is going
to be a home run! Unbelievable! A home run for Gibson and the Dodgers have
won the game, 5-4. I don't believe what I just saw!" (...)

"The people at CBS know nothing about baseball," Buck wrote in his 1997
autobiography, "That's a Winner" (Sports Publishing).


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Wed Jun 19 09:01:01 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:01:01 +0100
Subject: Cup of Joe
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.100101.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More Navy:

1939 Dorothy Carr ?Some Annapolis Slang? in American Speech XIV:1 77 Jamoke,
Java, Joe. Coffee.

Jonathon Green


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 19 11:50:37 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:50:37 -0400
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicons I, II, III
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206182119080.2257589-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.075037.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I always took it as a genitive (and I heard it in the 50's).

dInIs


         [Barry P]
#> #DAILY CANDY LEXICON III (June 17, 2002)
#> #
#> #"I smoke O.P.'s." As in "I smoke other people's cigarettes."

         [Mark M]
#> I heard this one at least as early as late sixties. It reminds me of:

         [Jesse S]
#HDAS has this to 1929, and "O.P." (not with the genitive) from decades
#earlier.

I take the /-z/ as plural, as in "Marlboros", not genitive.

-- Mark M.

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 19 11:53:53 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:53:53 -0400
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206182126470.2257589-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.075353.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Broadly indeed. I always narrowly define dialect speakers as those
who conflate this opposition, thereby revealing a sloppiness of
thought and mind (just like some others have accused /E/-/I/
conflaters, although they conflate this pair only before nasals). I
won't even discuss the obvious laziness and attendant moral depravity
of "horse"-"hoarse" conflaters.

dInIs

>On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Charles Wells wrote:
>
>#I say "dog" with the caught vowel and all other -og words with the cob
>#vowel (not distinguished in my Atlanta-based dialect from the a in father).
>
>Exactly the same for me. My parents were NYC-born, and I grew up
>Westchester and then NYC.
>
>I have picked up an occasional "caught" pronunciation of "frog", which
>as far as I can tell I use only in songs and rhymes where it rhymes with
>"dog" and in what might be broadly called "dialect" in telling jokes and
>stories.
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun 19 12:43:07 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:43:07 -0400
Subject: silly and off-topic
In-Reply-To: <00d001c2173d$beda0bc0$dd06433f@paulz>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.084307.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Paul M. Johnson wrote:

>In Ar. USA we have Toad Suck Ferry, that's in addition to "56", Old Joe, and
>others

Yes - my favorite place name in the US.

Bethany


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Jun 19 15:08:40 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:08:40 -0400
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <p0432040bb93593ead987@[130.132.231.248]>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.110840.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Laurence Horn wrote:

#At 9:29 PM -0400 6/18/02, Mark A Mandel wrote:
#>
#>I have picked up an occasional "caught" pronunciation of "frog", which
#>as far as I can tell I use only in songs and rhymes where it rhymes with
#>"dog" and in what might be broadly called "dialect" in telling jokes and
#>stories.
#>
#Ditto on everything except the frog, which never rhymes with "dog"
#for me.  And I suppose nothing else does; funny, I never thought of
#"dog" as an "orange" or "silver" word, but I guess it is (for me).

Yesterday on the highway, contemplating the motorcycle in front of me
whose license plate holder read
        [name of town] H-D
 I realized that I also have developed a "caught" pronunciation of
"hog", limited to the same uses as that of "frog" plus the meaning 'big
motorcycle, especially a Harley".

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Jun 19 15:19:29 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:19:29 -0400
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b93620a8a078@[35.10.92.197]>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.111929.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        [Mark M]
#>I have picked up an occasional "caught" pronunciation of "frog", which
#>as far as I can tell I use only in songs and rhymes where it rhymes with
#>"dog" and in what might be broadly called "dialect" in telling jokes and
#>stories.

        [dInIs]
#Broadly indeed. I always narrowly define dialect speakers as those
#who conflate this opposition, thereby revealing a sloppiness of
#thought and mind (just like some others have accused /E/-/I/
#conflaters, although they conflate this pair only before nasals). I
#won't even discuss the obvious laziness and attendant moral depravity
#of "horse"-"hoarse" conflaters.


I meant "dialect" as in "dialect joke"; you *did* understand that,
didn't you? The goal in this register is not to provide dialectological
information but to characterize the character speaking in some way that
will be apparent to the audience. This often involves making a
distinction that the audience makes and the character would merge, in
such a way that the audience perceives the character's phonetic
production as representing the "wrong" member of their phonological
opposition. One classic example in popular perception is the "reversal"
of "er" and "oi" in some NYC and other accents.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large


From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET  Wed Jun 19 14:58:45 2002
From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:58:45 -0400
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicons I, II, III
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.105845.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I heard it in the mid 40s.

Bob

> #> #"I smoke O.P.'s." As in "I smoke other people's cigarettes."
>


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 19 15:52:02 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:52:02 -0400
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206191112140.2289298-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.115202.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark,

Of course I understood; I was just pointing out the socio-regional
provenience of most of those who are the butts of such jokes (and how
incredulous those who are not are when they are told their speech is
somehow not "perfect" - crap I put up with in Michigan, the
locally-attested center of correct US English, every day).

You *did* understand what I was doing too didn't you?

dInIs

         [Mark M]
#>I have picked up an occasional "caught" pronunciation of "frog", which
#>as far as I can tell I use only in songs and rhymes where it rhymes with
#>"dog" and in what might be broadly called "dialect" in telling jokes and
#>stories.

         [dInIs]
#Broadly indeed. I always narrowly define dialect speakers as those
#who conflate this opposition, thereby revealing a sloppiness of
#thought and mind (just like some others have accused /E/-/I/
#conflaters, although they conflate this pair only before nasals). I
#won't even discuss the obvious laziness and attendant moral depravity
#of "horse"-"hoarse" conflaters.


I meant "dialect" as in "dialect joke"; you *did* understand that,
didn't you? The goal in this register is not to provide dialectological
information but to characterize the character speaking in some way that
will be apparent to the audience. This often involves making a
distinction that the audience makes and the character would merge, in
such a way that the audience perceives the character's phonetic
production as representing the "wrong" member of their phonological
opposition. One classic example in popular perception is the "reversal"
of "er" and "oi" in some NYC and other accents.

-- Mark A. Mandel
    Linguist at Large

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Jun 19 15:59:59 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:59:59 -0400
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b9365877bcd8@[35.10.92.197]>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.115959.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

#Mark,
#
#Of course I understood; I was just pointing out the socio-regional
#provenience of most of those who are the butts of such jokes (and how
#incredulous those who are not are when they are told their speech is
#somehow not "perfect" - crap I put up with in Michigan, the
#locally-attested center of correct US English, every day).
#
#You *did* understand what I was doing too didn't you?

I wasn't entirely sure.

I try hard, in all parts of my life, not to make ANYONE the butt of
ridicule on the basis of something they can't help, such as where
they're from, what language they speak, what "race" they are perceived
as belonging to, and so on. (OTOH I enjoy "dumb crook" stories, such as
the bank robber who wrote his holdup note on the back of his own deposit
slip.)


The texts I'm talking about, that I use, aren't meant as putdowns, nor,
I think, perceived as such by the people I tell them to. If I find a
good tale in a collection such as Jane Yolen's collection of folk tales
from around the world, or that classic _Pissing in the Snow_ -- I'm
thinking in particular of "Old Dry Fry", and I don't recall offhand what
source I was reading it from -- and such a tale is strongly rooted in
its place of (apparent) origin, I feel wrong telling it in entirely my
own voice and accent, especially when the tale as written in the text is
all in a style, vocabulary, usages, etc., that ring of the place. I
displace my speech from my real self in what I think will be perceived
as the direction of the place where the story is set. This is part of
the performance.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 19 16:08:31 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:08:31 EDT
Subject: precrime
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.120831.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/18/2002 10:18:07 AM, mkuha at BSU.EDU writes:

<< > How future acts are determined is not stated, but perhaps they have some
> divine assistance. >>

This reminds me of a billboard that stood on the way to the NC coast from
Durham in the 1970s:

"Madam Sheila -- Palm Reader -- Reveals Past, Present and Future"

It is easy enough to make predictions about the future, but anyone who can
make sense of the past--much less the present--has greater powers than I.


From elaine at CHAOS.WUSTL.EDU  Wed Jun 19 16:25:13 2002
From: elaine at CHAOS.WUSTL.EDU (Elaine -HFB- Ashton)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:25:13 -0500
Subject: Jack Buck's "That's a winner!"
In-Reply-To: <94.28024691.2a41905a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.112513.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM [Bapopik at AOL.COM] quoth:
*>   Sports broadecaster Jack Buck has died.  He wrote an autobiography titled
*>THAT'S A WINNER!--his catchphrase.  I've been looking around for other
*>catchphrases, but I can't find them.
*>   I'll go through his book when I have time.
*>   From today's NEW YORK TIMES obituary (which re-titles his autobiography
*>without the punctuation):

I grew up in St. Louis with Jack Buck. He had the most unmistakable voice
in broadcasting and radio will be less without him.

>From the 1985 World Series he is often remembered for the "Go Crazy Folks,
Go Crazy!" jubilant cry at the game and series winning home run.

e.


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 19 16:33:43 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:33:43 -0400
Subject: Jack Buck's "That's a winner!"
In-Reply-To: <20020619162513.GQ8217@chaos.wustl.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.123343.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Elaine -HFB- Ashton said:
>Bapopik at AOL.COM [Bapopik at AOL.COM] quoth:
>*>   Sports broadecaster Jack Buck has died.  He wrote an autobiography titled
>*>THAT'S A WINNER!--his catchphrase.  I've been looking around for other
>*>catchphrases, but I can't find them.
>*>   I'll go through his book when I have time.
>*>   From today's NEW YORK TIMES obituary (which re-titles his autobiography
>*>without the punctuation):
>
>I grew up in St. Louis with Jack Buck. He had the most unmistakable voice
>in broadcasting and radio will be less without him.
>
>>>From the 1985 World Series he is often remembered for the "Go Crazy Folks,
>Go Crazy!" jubilant cry at the game and series winning home run.
>

On ESPN radio this morning, Tony Kornheiser read an absolutely
wonderful obit for him, from the St Louis Post-Dispatch, by Bernie
Miklascz (sp?). And they've played a montage of his famous calls on
the late Sports Center last night.

Alice


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun 19 16:49:22 2002
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:49:22 -0400
Subject: O.P.s
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.124922.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The other night, my wife and I were in a bar where most of the crowd was
in their 20s and 30s. A couple in their late 40s/early 50s walked in and
my wife said: "Ah, there are some other O.P.s." I'd never heard this and
had to ask. "Old people," she sniffed. "I can't believe YOU'VE never
heard this!" She said that maybe it's a musician thing, but her
bandmates use it all the time.

Robert Fitzke wrote:

> I heard it in the mid 40s.
>
> Bob
>
>
>>#> #"I smoke O.P.'s." As in "I smoke other people's cigarettes."
>>
>>
>


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Wed Jun 19 17:02:56 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 18:02:56 +0100
Subject: O.P.s
In-Reply-To: <3D10B612.3000901@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.180256.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Wednesday, June 19, 2002 12:49 pm -0400 Gareth Branwyn
<garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:

> The other night, my wife and I were in a bar where most of the crowd was
> in their 20s and 30s. A couple in their late 40s/early 50s walked in and
> my wife said: "Ah, there are some other O.P.s." I'd never heard this and
> had to ask. "Old people," she sniffed. "I can't believe YOU'VE never
> heard this!" She said that maybe it's a musician thing, but her
> bandmates use it all the time.


Around here, the near-equivalent of 'senior citizens' is OAPs ('old age
pensioners').

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 19 17:09:48 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 13:09:48 EDT
Subject: Newsletter of the American Dialect Society
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.130948.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If you go to the ADS website
www.americandialect.org
you will find in pdf form the latest issue of our newsletter, vol. 34, no. 2,
dated May 2002 but just now finished.

It's also at the printer and will be sent by old-fashioned mail to ADS
members next week, for convenient reference even when your computer is turned
off.

Meanwhile, though, you can take a look at the electronic version for:
- programs for our regional meetings this fall
- last call for papers for our Annual Meeting in Atlanta in January (deadline
Friday, Aug. 16)
- program for our sessions at MLA
- report of a meeting on Pittsburgh dialects
- report of our delegate to the American Council of Learned Societies
- new books by ADS members
- and especially, some details about Volume IV of the Dictionary of American
Regional English, which will be published this fall. and there is a CONTEST:
25 very obscure regional words from that volume to match with their
definitions. The first one to send in all the correct answers will get a free
copy of that book! So don't delay, look at it today!

- Allan Metcalf


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 19 18:31:42 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 14:31:42 EDT
Subject: OED appeals list
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.143142.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The OED Appeals List (at URL http://www.oed.com/public/readers/appeal.htm) is
requesting citations on the following terms, all of which have been discussed
on ADS-L in the past year or so:

D'oh!, Doh! (Expression of frustration used when a person has done something
stupid; popularized by Homer Simpson):
antedate 1993
(now antedated to 1945)


minority n. (member of minority group):
antedate 1976


pear-shaped adj. (= awry, wrong):
any evidence


Wellington (in names of dishes, esp. Beef Wellington):
antedate 1965



wife-beater (sleeveless T-shirt, vest):
antedate 1997

      - Jim Landau


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Jun 19 18:48:20 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 14:48:20 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
In-Reply-To: <f7.1cf64aa2.2a42280e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.144820.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 02:31:42PM -0400, James A. Landau wrote:
> The OED Appeals List (at URL http://www.oed.com/public/readers/appeal.htm) is
> requesting citations on the following terms, all of which have been discussed
> on ADS-L in the past year or so:

Many of these entries are out of date and should have been removed or
updated; I'm not sure why this wasn't done. Barry has posted much
earlier examples of _Beef Wellington,_ for example, that we have at
OED but were not mentioned in this appeals list. (Many of the terms on
that list were from older appeals, by the way.)

Jesse Sheidlower


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Jun 19 19:53:12 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 15:53:12 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.155312.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I noticed that the nominally updated appeal for "to give someone one" (=sex) doesn't recognize my antedating to Gilbert & Sullivan's Iolanthe ("I heard the minx remark, She'd meet him after dark Inside St. James's Park And give him one").

        "Machinable" (capable of being processed by machine) is now antedated to 1957.  Here's an antedating to 1920:  "while all the 400,000 pounds of brass rods which the vendor delivered, except this 27,504 pounds, were readily machined, this remnant was not thus machinable."  Century Electric Co. v. Detroit Copper & Brass Rolling Mills, 264 F. 49, 51 (8th Cir. 1920).

        "Muggins" (card game) asks for any information.  Here's what appears to be an 1881 cite, though it refers to dice rather than cards:  "By act approved March the 5th, 1881, and which takes effect ninety days after adjournment, that body passed an amendment to articles 364 and 365 of the Penal Code, which amendment provides: 'If any person shall bet or wager * * * money or anything of value * * * at any of the following games, viz., poker dice, jack pot, high dice, low dice, low die, dominoes, euchre with dominoes, poker with dominoes, sett with dominoes, muggins, crack-loo, crack or loo, or at any game of any character whatever which can be played with dice or dominoes, or on any table, bank, or alley by whatsoever name the same may be known, and without reference to how the same may be constructed or operated, he shall be fined not less than ten dollars nor more than twenty-five dollars; provided, no person shall be indicted under this section for playing any of said games with dice or dominoes at a private residence.'"  Whitney v. State, 10 Tex. App. 377 (Tex. Ct. App. 1881).

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 2:48 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: OED appeals list


On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 02:31:42PM -0400, James A. Landau wrote:
> The OED Appeals List (at URL http://www.oed.com/public/readers/appeal.htm) is
> requesting citations on the following terms, all of which have been discussed
> on ADS-L in the past year or so:

Many of these entries are out of date and should have been removed or
updated; I'm not sure why this wasn't done. Barry has posted much
earlier examples of _Beef Wellington,_ for example, that we have at
OED but were not mentioned in this appeals list. (Many of the terms on
that list were from older appeals, by the way.)

Jesse Sheidlower


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 19 20:02:44 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 16:02:44 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
In-Reply-To: <f7.1cf64aa2.2a42280e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.160244.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

> D'oh!, Doh! (Expression of frustration used when a person has done something
> stupid; popularized by Homer Simpson):
> antedate 1993
> (now antedated to 1945)

I posted a 1931 usage from Laurel and Hardy on ADS-L in March.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Jun 19 21:48:20 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 14:48:20 -0700
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b93620a8a078@[35.10.92.197]>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.144820.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Call me lazy, but for me, dog, frog, log, bog, cog, epilogue etc., all
rhyme. As to my "attendant moral depravity", "hoarse" is homophonous with
"horse", of course.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> Broadly indeed. I always narrowly define dialect speakers as those
> who conflate this opposition, thereby revealing a sloppiness of
> thought and mind (just like some others have accused /E/-/I/
> conflaters, although they conflate this pair only before nasals). I
> won't even discuss the obvious laziness and attendant moral depravity
> of "horse"-"hoarse" conflaters.
>
> dInIs
>


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 19 22:27:45 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 18:27:45 -0400
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.44.0206190928580.16182-100000@homer31.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.182745.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>A horse is not a hoarse of course of course.....

dInIs



>Call me lazy, but for me, dog, frog, log, bog, cog, epilogue etc., all
>rhyme. As to my "attendant moral depravity", "hoarse" is homophonous with
>"horse", of course.
>
>allen
>maberry at u.washington.edu
>
>
>On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>>  Broadly indeed. I always narrowly define dialect speakers as those
>>  who conflate this opposition, thereby revealing a sloppiness of
>>  thought and mind (just like some others have accused /E/-/I/
>>  conflaters, although they conflate this pair only before nasals). I
>>  won't even discuss the obvious laziness and attendant moral depravity
>>  of "horse"-"hoarse" conflaters.
>>
>>  dInIs
>>

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 19 22:30:23 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 18:30:23 EDT
Subject: Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah (1922)
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.183023.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I asked the women's division of the Reconstructionist College for any "Bat
Mitzvah" citation, and got the following response.  If rrc.edu doesn't have
citations, no one does.  Judith Kaplan Eisenstein's husband was a college
founder.
--Barry Popik
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------

Subj:   Judith Kaplan's bat mitzvah
Date:   6/19/2002 1:47:56 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   <A HREF="mailto:dwaxman at rrc.edu">dwaxman at rrc.edu</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
Sent from the Internet (Details)



Hello-

I am currently writing a graduate seminar paper on the bat mitzvah
ceremony at the Society for the Advancement of Judaism (SAJ), the
synagogue founded by Dr. Mordecai M. Kaplan, Judith Kaplan's father.
There was no secular press coverage of her bat mitzvah, which occurred
on May 5, 1922, though I have not determined if it received coverage in
the Jewish press (Anglo or Yiddish).

The first reference to the "bas mitzvah" ceremony I have thus far
encountered is in minutes of the SAJ Board of Trustees from early
February 1922, shortly after the congregation was organized.  Dr. Kaplan
informed the Board of his intention to introduce such a ceremony and let
them know that he intended that his eldest daughter to be the first, and
the Board assented with great enthusiasm.  I have not yet had an
opportunity to review Kaplan's diary to determine if he wrote about the
ceremony using this terminology earlier than that date, though if you
check in with me again in a few weeks I hope to have made some headway
on the diary.  I can also email you the precise date and language from
the minute books if this is helpful.

The synagogue standardized the usage to the Sephardic pronuciation "bat"
mitzvah some time in the 30s.

Deborah Waxman

Rabbi Deborah Waxman
Assistant to the President and Director of Special Projects
Reconstructionist Rabbinical College
1299 Church Road
Wyncote, PA  19095
(215) 576-0800 x113
(215) 576-6143 (fax)


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Jun 19 22:56:22 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 18:56:22 -0400
Subject: -og words
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b936b5c59004@[35.12.24.93]>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.185622.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

#>A horse is not a hoarse of course of course.....

......... of *coarse*!

-- Mark M.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Jun 20 12:27:48 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:27:48 -0400
Subject: FW: Death of W. Nelson Francis
In-Reply-To: <3D11C785.4040007@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.082748.0400.>

This message has just been received; I have already answered his query and
so post the message here in lieu of a true announcement. I have copied a
post to LinguistList which includes more information.

Reply-To: John Francis <71600.300 at compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:16:05 -0400
To: gbarrett at americandialect.org
Subject: Death of W. Nelson Francis

My father, W. Nelson Francis, a long-time member of the American Dialect
Society, died on June 14 in Providence, RI. Would you inform me which
office(s) and publication(s) of the ADS should be notified, with postal
and e-mail addresses and phone numbers? Thank you.

John Francis
71600.300 at compuserve.com

.........

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:41:00 +0000
From: Pauline Jacobson <pauline_jacobson at brown.edu>
Subject: W. Nelson Francis

    I am sorry to report the death of W. Nelson Francis this past
Friday (June 14).  Nelson died at home in Providence, at the age of
91.

    Nelson taught at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster,
Pa until coming to the Department of Lingusitics at Brown in 1962.  He
was instrumental in the building of linguistics at Brown, and was
Chair of the department until 1968 until 1975.  After "retiring" in
1975 he nonetheless continued to be active in the department, and in
1987 we drafted him to come back and be Chair of the Department of
Cognitive and Linguistic Sciences.  He continued to teach historical
linguistics at Brown until the early 1990's, when we finally let him
"retire" a second time.  But he continued to be active in the field
until quite recently - doing research, attending conferences, and
writing book reviews for the journal Language.

    Nelson was the co-creator - with Henry Kucera - of the Brown
Corpus.  This pioneering work was instrumental in the development of
the field of Corpus Linguistics, and has had a major impact on the
research directions and techniques in Computational linguistics.
Nelson was also a leading expert on the history of English and on
Dialectology, and was author of, among others, The Structure of
American English; The English Language: An Introduction; and
Dialectology: An Introduction.

    He was a true "Renaissance man" with a variety of interests.
He was an avid sailor, and lived for many years on the Narragansett
Bay where he regularly sailed.  He was also a member of Save the Bay,
the NAACP, and the Urban League of Rhode Island, and was president of
the Providence Shakespearean Society from 1986 to 1990.

    Nelson had a great joie-de-vivre, and was a wonderful
colleague and a wonderful man.  He is survived by his wife Nearlene,
two sons, a daughter, and two grandchildren.  There will be a memorial
service held at a later date.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun 20 13:33:30 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:33:30 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0206191601430.29462-100000@minerva.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.093330.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 04:02:44PM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:
>
> > D'oh!, Doh! (Expression of frustration used when a person has done something
> > stupid; popularized by Homer Simpson):
> > antedate 1993
> > (now antedated to 1945)
>
> I posted a 1931 usage from Laurel and Hardy on ADS-L in March.

Which OED can't cite directly.

Jesse Sheidlower


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 20 14:17:30 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:17:30 EDT
Subject: OED News (June); 'Tis pity, but "Shakespeare" is Ford
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.101730.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED NEWS

   The June 2002 OED News (www.oed.com) is out.  The OED has revised terms
such as "Mitzvah."  It's a blessing to us all.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
"TIS PITY, BUT "SHAKESPEARE" IS FORD

   The great literary sleuth Don Foster was wrong.  A poem he attributed to
Shakespeare is now conceded to have been written by John Ford ('TIS PITY
SHE'S A WHORE).  His "computer literary analysis" was flawed.
   I once e-mailed Foster about David Shulman's finding that CRIES OF NEW
YORK was possibly authored by Washingtopn Irving, but the great man Foster
couldn't e-mail back.
   This thing got huge space in today's NEW YORK TIMES--not because of the
work of other scholars, but because Foster changed his mind.  In fact, the
TIMES couldn't even get the other scholars' names down correctly:

   Professor Vickers, the director of Renaissance studies at the Swiss
Federal Institute of Technology, in Zurich, credits Richard Kennedy, an
independent researcher and author of children's books, as the first to
identify Ford as the author of the poem, in a controversy that raged on
Shakesper for two years after the Foster theory was announced.
   "I was the first one who ever laid onto Ford," Mr. Richards said in a
telephone interview Monday. (...)
   "I thought: Why not Ford?  Let's take a look," Mr. Kennedy continued.

(If the TIMES ever does do a story on "the Big Apple," perhaps I can be "Mr.
Barry" as well as "Mr. Popick"?--ed.)


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 20 14:51:38 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:51:38 EDT
Subject: Best subject line for spam e-mail
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.105138.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A little off-topic perhaps, but I think this deserves some sort of award for
punching all the right buttons:

Get PAID To SHOP and EAT!!

- Allan Metcalf


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 20 19:56:18 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:56:18 EDT
Subject: Best subject line for spam e-mail
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.155618.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/20/2002 10:52:02 AM, AAllan at AOL.COM writes:

<< Get PAID To SHOP and EAT!! >>

Where do i sign up?


From LJT777 at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 20 20:08:17 2002
From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:08:17 EDT
Subject: Best subject line for spam e-mail
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.160817.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The absolute very best line would be "Get PAID To SHOP and EAT after great
SEX!!"


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun 20 21:26:50 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:26:50 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
In-Reply-To: <D9BA04198D5C154F901F45D28E4866B5012D41B8@phex01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.172650.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 03:53:12PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:

> I noticed that the nominally updated appeal for "to give someone
>one" (=sex) doesn't recognize my antedating to Gilbert & Sullivan's
>Iolanthe ("I heard the minx remark, She'd meet him after dark Inside
>St. James's Park And give him one").

This antedating has been entered in OED, and the relevant entry will
probably be published in next quarter's batch.

>  "Machinable" (capable of being processed by machine) is now
> antedated to 1957.  Here's an antedating to 1920: "while all the
> 400,000 pounds of brass rods which the vendor delivered, except this
> 27,504 pounds, were readily machined, this remnant was not thus
> machinable."  Century Electric Co. v. Detroit Copper & Brass Rolling
> Mills, 264 F. 49, 51 (8th Cir. 1920).

Are you sure this doesn't mean 'capable of being cut by machine tools',
which we have to 1917? I can't quite tell from the context, but it seems
as though this is likely.

> "Muggins" (card game) asks for any information.  Here's what appears
>to be an 1881 cite, though it refers to dice rather than cards: "By
>act approved March the 5th, 1881, and which takes effect ninety days
>after adjournment, that body passed an amendment to articles 364 and
>365 of the Penal Code, which amendment provides: 'If any person shall
>bet or wager * * * money or anything of value * * * at any of the
>following games, viz., poker dice, jack pot, high dice, low dice, low
>die, dominoes, euchre with dominoes, poker with dominoes, sett with
>dominoes, muggins, crack-loo, crack or loo, or at any game of any
>character whatever which can be played with dice or dominoes, or on
>any table, bank, or alley by whatsoever name the same may be known,
>and without reference to how the same may be constructed or operated,
>he shall be fined not less than ten dollars nor more than twenty-five
>dollars; provided, no person shall be indicted under this section for
>playing any of said games with dice or dominoes at a private
>residence.'"  Whitney v. State, 10 Tex. App. 377
>(Tex. Ct. App. 1881).

Given that the word "muggins" in this passage follows several other
forms of domino games, I'd be inclined to think that this is OED2's
_muggins_ 2.b. 'a game of dominoes in which players count by
(multiples of) five', which is attested to 1868.

Best

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Thu Jun 20 22:17:09 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:17:09 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
In-Reply-To: <20020620212650.GB29087@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.181709.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Jesse Sheidlower commented on the sense of
"machinable."

I have been wondering about the range of the -able adjectives. The state
of TN sells a wildlife license plate whose slogan I find particularly
obnoxious: Watchable Wildlife.

I suppose that anything visible is "watchable." I also suppose that by
"watchable" the state means something like "worth watching" or "beautiful
to look at" - doesn't seem to work, to me.

Bethany


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Jun 20 22:28:26 2002
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:28:26 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.182826.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'd thought that the earliest cite for 'wife beater' was one that I
found for December 1996.  But, a quick search with Google - Groups found
earlier cites.

Searching on "wife beater" AND shirt ----
>From soc.motss newsgroup, 6 April 1994, [wife-beater undershirt]:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22wife+beater%22+AND+shirt&hl=en&lr=&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1996&selm=2o048p%24cpo%40mizar.usc.edu&rnum=9

Numerous other combinations, with the above search.

Searching on "wife beater t-shirt" ----

>From alt.gothic, there is a 13 March 1996 usage:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22wife+beater+t-shirt%22&hl=en&lr=&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1996&selm=4i79s6%244pm%40vixen.cso.uiuc.edu&rnum=2

>From alt.cosuard, there is a 24 October 1996 usage:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22wife+beater+t-shirt%22&hl=en&lr=&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1996&selm=54oind%24998%40hermes.acs.unt.edu&rnum=1

There are probably earlier cites, with a mention of wife-beater, but in
reference to a garment.

George Cole
Shippensburg University


From savan at EROLS.COM  Thu Jun 20 23:08:32 2002
From: savan at EROLS.COM (Leslie Savan)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:08:32 -0400
Subject: It's a good thing
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.190832.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    The press is quoting Martha Stewart's signature line a lot these
days: "It's a good thing." It's a good way to imply that she's done a
bad thing.
    I THINK I heard "It's a good thing" (with just a dab of irony) long
before it became a Martha shtick. But maybe I'm wrong. And I really have
no sense of the chronology.
    Does anyone know if Stewart "coined" it--as much as one can coin
these four words strung together? Or did she merely popularize it, and
did people started saying it more because of Martha, maybe even feeling
Martha-like as they said it? Or was it already an entrenched popular
phrase, and did Martha just borrow it as her own personal slogan? Any
ideas? Any chronology?


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun 20 23:26:47 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:26:47 -0400
Subject: It's a good thing
In-Reply-To: <3D126070.9560D3BC@erols.com>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.192647.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:08:32PM -0400, Leslie Savan wrote:
>     The press is quoting Martha Stewart's signature line a lot these
> days: "It's a good thing." It's a good way to imply that she's done a
> bad thing.
>     I THINK I heard "It's a good thing" (with just a dab of irony) long
> before it became a Martha shtick. But maybe I'm wrong. And I really have
> no sense of the chronology.
>     Does anyone know if Stewart "coined" it--as much as one can coin
> these four words strung together? Or did she merely popularize it, and
> did people started saying it more because of Martha, maybe even feeling
> Martha-like as they said it? Or was it already an entrenched popular
> phrase, and did Martha just borrow it as her own personal slogan? Any
> ideas? Any chronology?

I believe the locus classicus for this phrase is _1066 and All That,_ the
1930 history parody.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 21 00:20:13 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:20:13 EDT
Subject: Stockpot (1835); Taboulah (1939); Alaska & more
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.202013.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

STOCKPOT

   Today's NEW YORK POST front page talks about "Martha's $63 Million
Stockpot."  Sixty-three million dollars is a good thing!
   "Stockpot" is not mentioned in the all-inclusive and scholarly
ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK (1999) by John Mariani.
   Merriam-Webster has "stockpot" from 1853.  OED has "stockpot" from 1845
and 1853.  OED says "stock pot" is a pot of "soup stock."  However, OED says
that "soup stock" was coined by Charles Dickens in 1861!
   This stuff is really bad.
   The free, online Making of America database (Cornell) has NORTH AMERICAN
REVIEW, April 1835, pg. 373:

   ...but when I declare, that it (mineral water at Wiesbaden--ed.) exactly
resembles very hot chicken broth, I only say, respecting it; and I certainly
do wonder why the common people should be at the inconvenience of making bad
soup, when they can get much better from nature's great stock-pot, the
_Koch-brunnen_ of Wiesbaden.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
TABOULAH

   OED and M-W have 1955 for "tabbouleh."  I had cited a 1942 book by Freya
Stark, that contains her 1928 journal.  This is another cite.  I
unfortunately didn't see "falafel" here.

AN OBSERVER IN PALESTINE
by Winifred Lowe Fox
New York: Fleming H. Revell Co.
1939

Pg. 44:  A cook was serving_ruzz mufelfel_ (boiled rice) to two men...

Pg. 66:  Says Robert Gessner in his book, _Some of My Best Friends Are Jews_
(Farrar & Rinehart)...

Pg. 142:  This (sherbet and wine--ed.) we will drink widt de _taboulah_ our
ladies make ready very soon," said the interpreter.

Pg. 144:  Women of the party slipped away and prepared the _taboulah_.  I
helped them chop parsley, lettuce, celery, onions, green peppers and lemon
pulp; over this they poured lemon juice and olive oil. (...) We dipped tender
lettuce and grape leaves into the mixture according to Arabic style.

Pg. 169:  Regardless of the popularity of _lebanimo_ (meaning a mixture of
kid or goat meat boiled with _leban_ and poured over cooked rice, chopped
onions, mint, and parsley), Jews and Moslems will not eat it because Mosaic
law forbids...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
ALASKA & MORE (O.T., PERSONAL)

   I will be in Alaska from Tuesday, June 25 until July 3rd.  (My plane gets
in early on July 4th, just in time to see New York City destroyed.)
   If I survive, I will then be in Europe from July 6-26th (3 weeks).  I will
attend a legal education seminar on Germany's infamous  Wannsee Conference
sponsored by my law school, held in Berlin on July 7-11th.  See the top of
www.tourolaw.edu.  We'll have a private tour of Berlin's new Jewish Museum
and much more.  Then I'll have about six days, which I'll probably spend in
Vienna eating desserts, or in the Austrian town from which my ancestors were
deported to their deaths.  After that, I'll join an organized tour of the
Ukraine (Kiev, Odessa, Yalta) from July 17-26th (www.mircorp.com, the same
company that did my Georgia/Armenia/Azerbaijan),.
   Then the whole month of August back in New York City adjudicating parking
tickets, and then, in September, it's off to Mongolia and Tibet.
   And that should be about it.


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 21 01:06:42 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 21:06:42 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
In-Reply-To: <20020620212650.GB29087@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.210642.0400.>

RE the following:

>  "Machinable" (capable of being processed by machine) is now
> antedated to 1957.  Here's an antedating to 1920: "while all the
> 400,000 pounds of brass rods which the vendor delivered, except this
> 27,504 pounds, were readily machined, this remnant was not thus
> machinable."  Century Electric Co. v. Detroit Copper & Brass Rolling
> Mills, 264 F. 49, 51 (8th Cir. 1920).

Jesse S said:

>>
Are you sure this doesn't mean 'capable of being cut by machine tools',
which we have to 1917? I can't quite tell from the context, but it seems
as though this is likely.
<<

The above passage undoubtedly refers to the cutting of metal by a machine
tool.  Machinists, engineers, and designers speak of metal being machinable
(in varying degrees) constantly.  And the industry has been around since the
early 19th century at least.

I expect that the technical literature would antedate this by decades.

Frank Abate


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Jun 21 01:31:53 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 21:31:53 -0400
Subject: It's a good thing
In-Reply-To: <20020620232647.GA26559@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.213153.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

#I believe the locus classicus for this phrase is _1066 and All That,_ the
#1930 history parody.

I don't recall "It's a good thing" in that terrific book. I do recall
various things and events being classified as "a Good Thing" or "a Bad
Thing", which is not the same. (Also Good Kings and Bad Kings.)

-- Mark A. Mandel


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 21 01:58:17 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 21:58:17 -0400
Subject: It's a good thing (blues recordings, 1920s)
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.215817.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I did a quick title search.

1890s--"It's a good thing I did'nt hav my gun" is in WILLIAMS & PEMBERTON'S NEW CONSOLIDATED SONGSTER (1890s, undated).

1920s-1930s--"It's a good little thing" is in music collections by Blind Willie Johnson and Blind Willie McTell.

1927-1929--"It's a good thing" is in music collections by Frank Stokes.  One 1970s collection is titled "Frank Stokes: Creator of the Memphis Blues."

1927-1932--"It's a good thing" was recorded by the Beale St. Sheiks.  Same tune as above?  It's in the 1970 collection "Hometown skiffle: early folk blues vol. 2."

1964-1967--"It's a good thing" was recorded by Jimmy Hughes.  Martha might have been exposed to this 1960s NYC "soul music" recording.


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Jun 21 03:22:45 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:22:45 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.232245.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On further consideration, I think your point about "muggins" is well-taken.
 
As to "machinable," the distinction between "cut by machine tools" and "processed by machine" can be quite subtle.  In the 1920 case I quoted, this additional quote should give the necessary context:  "This is an action by the vendee in a written contract of sale, at prices therein stated, of 400,000 pounds of brass rods, of sizes and other qualities therein specified, to recover back the purchase price, $8,506.03, of 27,504 pounds thereof, which the vendee returned, because, as it claims, they were too hard to be cut and made into brass primers by automatic screw machines. The vendor defended on the ground that it was under no obligation to make the rods of such a degree of hardness that they could be so machined."
 
Alternatively, here's a 1928 quote:  "E. W. Bliss Company entered into a contract with the Santo Company, by which the latter agreed to machine-finish a large number of three-inch Russian shrapnel forgings. . . . In point of fact, out of 79,537 forgings delivered, and not rejected, the Santo Company actually in part machined 79,055. Its contention that the forgings were not machinable necessarily fails, in the face of the admitted fact that it did partially machine practically all of them. The final progress report made by the Santo Company to the Bliss Company discloses that the rougher portions of the machining were almost entirely completed by the Santo Company. It failed in performance only when it sought to perform the more delicate final operations on the forgings. It was apparently able to rough-turn and bore the forgings; it was unable to groove and finish-turn them satisfactorily."  In re People by Phillips, 222 A.D. 304, 226 N.Y.S. 175 (N.Y.A.D. 1928) , rev'd, 250 N.Y. 410, 165 N.E. 829 (1929).
 
John Baker
 

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM] 
	Sent: Thu 6/20/2002 5:26 PM 
	To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
	Cc: 
	Subject: Re: OED appeals list
	
	

	On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 03:53:12PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
	
	> I noticed that the nominally updated appeal for "to give someone
	>one" (=sex) doesn't recognize my antedating to Gilbert & Sullivan's
	>Iolanthe ("I heard the minx remark, She'd meet him after dark Inside
	>St. James's Park And give him one").
	
	This antedating has been entered in OED, and the relevant entry will
	probably be published in next quarter's batch.
	
	>  "Machinable" (capable of being processed by machine) is now
	> antedated to 1957.  Here's an antedating to 1920: "while all the
	> 400,000 pounds of brass rods which the vendor delivered, except this
	> 27,504 pounds, were readily machined, this remnant was not thus
	> machinable."  Century Electric Co. v. Detroit Copper & Brass Rolling
	> Mills, 264 F. 49, 51 (8th Cir. 1920).
	
	Are you sure this doesn't mean 'capable of being cut by machine tools',
	which we have to 1917? I can't quite tell from the context, but it seems
	as though this is likely.
	
	> "Muggins" (card game) asks for any information.  Here's what appears
	>to be an 1881 cite, though it refers to dice rather than cards: "By
	>act approved March the 5th, 1881, and which takes effect ninety days
	>after adjournment, that body passed an amendment to articles 364 and
	>365 of the Penal Code, which amendment provides: 'If any person shall
	>bet or wager * * * money or anything of value * * * at any of the
	>following games, viz., poker dice, jack pot, high dice, low dice, low
	>die, dominoes, euchre with dominoes, poker with dominoes, sett with
	>dominoes, muggins, crack-loo, crack or loo, or at any game of any
	>character whatever which can be played with dice or dominoes, or on
	>any table, bank, or alley by whatsoever name the same may be known,
	>and without reference to how the same may be constructed or operated,
	>he shall be fined not less than ten dollars nor more than twenty-five
	>dollars; provided, no person shall be indicted under this section for
	>playing any of said games with dice or dominoes at a private
	>residence.'"  Whitney v. State, 10 Tex. App. 377
	>(Tex. Ct. App. 1881).
	
	Given that the word "muggins" in this passage follows several other
	forms of domino games, I'd be inclined to think that this is OED2's
	_muggins_ 2.b. 'a game of dominoes in which players count by
	(multiples of) five', which is attested to 1868.
	
	Best
	
	Jesse Sheidlower
	OED
	
	


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Jun 21 03:30:47 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:30:47 -0400
Subject: It's a good thing
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.233047.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's a subtle difference in emphases.  "It's a good thing!", meaning the alternative would be very bad, has been around for a long time, as Barry has already shown.  "X was a Good Thing" is in 1066 and All That (which I'm currently reading to my 10-year-old daughter - not an obvious choice, but she seems to like it O.K.).  Martha's by-word is "It's a _good_ thing."
 
I don't know how you would go about antedating distinctions that are this subtle.
 
John Baker
 

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM] 
	Sent: Thu 6/20/2002 7:26 PM 
	To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
	Cc: 
	Subject: Re: It's a good thing
	
	

	On Thu, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:08:32PM -0400, Leslie Savan wrote:
	>     The press is quoting Martha Stewart's signature line a lot these
	> days: "It's a good thing." It's a good way to imply that she's done a
	> bad thing.
	>     I THINK I heard "It's a good thing" (with just a dab of irony) long
	> before it became a Martha shtick. But maybe I'm wrong. And I really have
	> no sense of the chronology.
	>     Does anyone know if Stewart "coined" it--as much as one can coin
	> these four words strung together? Or did she merely popularize it, and
	> did people started saying it more because of Martha, maybe even feeling
	> Martha-like as they said it? Or was it already an entrenched popular
	> phrase, and did Martha just borrow it as her own personal slogan? Any
	> ideas? Any chronology?
	
	I believe the locus classicus for this phrase is _1066 and All That,_ the
	1930 history parody.
	
	Jesse Sheidlower
	OED
	
	


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Fri Jun 21 05:04:31 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:04:31 -0700
Subject: A pair pants/ next store vs next door
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.220431.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A colleague in Creative Writing recently shared these real-life
attestations with me. The "next store" one sounds like one of those
"plausible" stories circulated on the internet, but he swears it really
happened. (The discussion arose because his NYC-born wife used the
form "a scissor".)

        Rudy


On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Robert Houston wrote:

Dear Rudy,

        Reminds me of the time I was trying to get my class to learn to write
"a couple of things," vs. "a couple things." by saying to them, "After all,
you don't say 'a pair pants,' do you?"  One poor kid from NYC looked
stricken and said, "I say that.  Is it wrong?"

And that ranks up there with the freshman girl from Brooklyn who was raised
in an apartment above her parents' Italian grocery store, on a street
where all her neighbors lived in like circumstances.  Until I found that out
about her, I was going nuts trying to figure out why she keep writing
"next store" for "next door."

Best,

Bob


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 21 05:50:31 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 01:50:31 -0400
Subject: Klezmer (M-W 1949, OED no entry?)
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.015031.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   With that "Bas Mitzvah" thing, I told the RRC rabbi to send any other Jewish etymologies.  I decided see OED's "klezmer," an Jewish instrument surely as old as the bagel.  OED has no entry.  I tried "klez*".  It's not there!  THIS IS HORRIBLE!
   Merriam-Webster has 1949 for "klezmer."
   Is anything in the OED files?  ANYTHING at all??
   GLIMPSES OF A STRANGE WORLD (1908) by H. S. Stollnitz has a chapter "Sheka Klezmer," and I'll read it on Saturday.

(I haven't yet checked MOA.)


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Jun 21 12:27:57 2002
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:27:57 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.082757.0400.>

Hi All Men,

"American and British dictionaries have no clear notion of the female
genitals." Visit: www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index/htm. (Hint: click
"Trademark Affidavits").

Comments (private or To List) welcome.

Best regards.

TOM PAIKEDAY
lexicographer & trademark consultant
(announcing website in the works, as above)


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 21 12:56:23 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:56:23 -0400
Subject: Klezmer (M-W 1949, OED no entry?)
In-Reply-To: <4BFA4CFB.395E2600.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.085623.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 01:50:31AM -0400, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    With that "Bas Mitzvah" thing, I told the RRC rabbi to send any other Jewish etymologies.  I decided see OED's "klezmer," an Jewish instrument surely as old as the bagel.  OED has no entry.  I tried "klez*".  It's not there!  THIS IS HORRIBLE!
>    Merriam-Webster has 1949 for "klezmer."
>    Is anything in the OED files?  ANYTHING at all??

Our draft entry for it has a first cite of 1929 in the sense 'Eastern
European Jewish folk instrumentalist', which appears to be Merriam's
first sense as well.

Antedatings welcome, as always.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 21 14:12:21 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:12:21 EDT
Subject: It's a good thing
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.101221.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/20/2002 11:28:29 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes:

<< I don't know how you would go about antedating distinctions that are this
subtle. >>

by watching old movies?


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Fri Jun 21 14:36:08 2002
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:36:08 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.103608.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Some other antedates, from Google's Group search.  Usually, there are
additional antedates at the site, including those for other
words/phrases, but I'm not sure that they represent the usage that is
sought by the OED.  The site that I used is:
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en

George Cole
Shippensburg University
=================

boyf, 20 SEP 1990 (from alt.angst; source includes -- grils; grilf):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22boyf%22&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1993&selm=2050%40amethyst.math.arizona.edu&rnum=18

"Or maybe grils just don't have angst as much, since it's usually
easier for them to find a boyf then it is for guys to find a grilf."
=======================

crimbo, 17 DEC 1984 (from net.jokes):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22crimbo%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1989&selm=4734%40ukc.UUCP&rnum=2

"And a Merry Crimbo to you all."
========================

[Google has numerous cites from 1990]
felching, 17 NOV 1989 (from talk.bizarre, alt.sex):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22felching%22&start=20&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1991&selm=1055%40asuvax.asu.edu&rnum=26

"But felch!  I want to read about felching!"
=========================

gaffer tape, 29 JUN 1983 (from net.movies):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22gaffer+tape%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1988&selm=412%40ihuxl.UUCP&rnum=1

"Gaffer tape is not the same as duct tape.  It looks the same but...."

Gaffer's tape, 27 JUN 1983 (from net.movies):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22gaffer+tape%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1988&selm=1352%40tekid.UUCP&rnum=5

"His assistant . . . is the Gaffer from whence comes the term Gaffer's
tape by which movie and still photographers refer to duct tape."
=========================

mare, as in nightmare, 28 NOV 1994 (from alt.magick.tyagi):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22mare+AND+night%22&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1996&selm=3be119%24bi0%40news1.shell&rnum=13

"Black Moon, Lilith, Mare of Night...." {a recitation}

14 NOV 1995 (from rec.motorcycles):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22mare+AND+night%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1996&selm=Pine.SOL.3.91.951114143302.13387B-100000%40cms1&rnum=10

"Is it my imagination or is parking a bike in London becoming a complete
'mare?"
======================

nummy, 6 FEB 1982 (from net.cooks):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22nummy%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1989&selm=anews.Aeagle.198&rnum=3

"The stuffing is chopped garlic, mozzarella ... and chopped tomatoes.
Sounds potent, but nummy!"
=====================

[perhaps not the usage sought]
nummies, 15 NOV 1986 (from sci.lang):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22nummies%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1989&selm=133%40akgud.UUCP&rnum=1

"...as to why we are language nummies in the USofA."
=====================

Earlier cites, than the following, but I'm not sure of the usage.

palaver, 23 NOV 1989 (from comp.os.vms):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22palaver%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1990&selm=1886%40onion.reading.ac.uk&rnum=3

"I don't think I'd enjoy the palaver of copying via usenet.  Yuch!"
=====================

spoddy, 2 NOV 1990 (from rec.arts.startrek):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22spoddy%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1993&selm=1990Nov2.122726.17172%40csug.rdg.ac.uk&rnum=2

"All I did was knock up a spoddy access program for it."

22 NOV 1991 (from soc.culture.british):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22spoddy%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1993&selm=SAMCINTY.91Nov20122527%40exua.exua.exeter.ac.uk&rnum=1

"Standing in a queue of 50,410 spoddy college kids who are STILL on half
term."
========================


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Jun 21 14:41:27 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:41:27 -0400
Subject: It's a good thing
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.104127.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Well, yes, it is possible.  I meant that I don't know how you would proceed in any systematic manner to look for antedates.  Barry may be up to it, though.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: RonButters at AOL.COM [mailto:RonButters at AOL.COM]
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 10:12 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: It's a good thing


In a message dated 6/20/2002 11:28:29 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes:

<< I don't know how you would go about antedating distinctions that are this
subtle. >>

by watching old movies?


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 21 15:45:28 2002
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:45:28 EDT
Subject: OED appeals-give him one
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.114528.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/20/2002 5:27:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jester at PANIX.COM writes:


> On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 03:53:12PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>
> > I noticed that the nominally updated appeal for "to give someone
> >one" (=sex) doesn't recognize my antedating to Gilbert & Sullivan's
> >Iolanthe ("I heard the minx remark, She'd meet him after dark Inside
> >St. James's Park And give him one").
>
> This antedating has been entered in OED, and the relevant entry will
> probably be published in next quarter's batch.
>
> But the Iolanthe example can't mean 'have sex', can it?  If Gilbert had
> thought it had even a hint of that meaning he never would have put it in
> the play.  I always thought it meant that Iolanthe would 'give him a kiss'.
>   Gilbert prided himself on putting on shows that made the theatre
> respectable as opposed to the French who had all kinds of naughty
> implications in their plays.  He was a pillar of respectability.  Maybe
> it's like the phrase 'to make love' which appears in old songs and meant
> something like 'say romantic things' or maybe 'kiss' but since the 60s at
> least has generally been understood to mean copulation.
>
> Dale Coye
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 21 15:51:34 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:51:34 -0400
Subject: OED appeals-give him one
In-Reply-To: <88.19f3c81c.2a44a418@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.115134.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 11:45:28AM -0400, Dale Coye wrote:
> In a message dated 06/20/2002 5:27:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jester at PANIX.COM writes:
>
>
> > On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 03:53:12PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
> >
> > > I noticed that the nominally updated appeal for "to give someone
> > >one" (=sex) doesn't recognize my antedating to Gilbert & Sullivan's
> > >Iolanthe ("I heard the minx remark, She'd meet him after dark Inside
> > >St. James's Park And give him one").
> >
> > This antedating has been entered in OED, and the relevant entry will
> > probably be published in next quarter's batch.
> >
> > But the Iolanthe example can't mean 'have sex', can it?  If Gilbert had
> > thought it had even a hint of that meaning he never would have put it in
> > the play.  I always thought it meant that Iolanthe would 'give him a kiss'.
> >   Gilbert prided himself on putting on shows that made the theatre
> > respectable as opposed to the French who had all kinds of naughty
> > implications in their plays.  He was a pillar of respectability.  Maybe
> > it's like the phrase 'to make love' which appears in old songs and meant
> > something like 'say romantic things' or maybe 'kiss' but since the 60s at
> > least has generally been understood to mean copulation.

We do have a note discussing this; it could mean "kiss". However, St.
James's Park did have a reputation for being frequented by prostitutes,
so there's the possibility of a double meaning here. If we could find
a clear example from Victorian pornography it would help.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Jun 21 16:03:25 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:03:25 -0400
Subject: OED appeals-give him one
In-Reply-To: <88.19f3c81c.2a44a418@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.120325.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(I'm not sure who wrote what here, since Dale's entire post is quoted
and there is no formal way to tell where Jesse leaves off and Dale
begins.)

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Dale Coye wrote:

#jester at PANIX.COM writes:
#
#> On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 03:53:12PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
#>
#> > I noticed that the nominally updated appeal for "to give someone
#> >one" (=sex) doesn't recognize my antedating to Gilbert & Sullivan's
#> >Iolanthe ("I heard the minx remark, She'd meet him after dark Inside
#> >St. James's Park And give him one").
#>
#> This antedating has been entered in OED, and the relevant entry will
#> probably be published in next quarter's batch.

        [Dale?:]

#> But the Iolanthe example can't mean 'have sex', can it?  If Gilbert had
#> thought it had even a hint of that meaning he never would have put it in
#> the play.  I always thought it meant that Iolanthe would 'give him a kiss'.
#>   Gilbert prided himself on putting on shows that made the theatre
#> respectable as opposed to the French who had all kinds of naughty
#> implications in their plays.  He was a pillar of respectability.  Maybe
#> it's like the phrase 'to make love' which appears in old songs and meant
#> something like 'say romantic things' or maybe 'kiss' but since the 60s at
#> least has generally been understood to mean copulation.

How does that square* with the name of the main character in "Patience",
who is a caricature of Oscar Wilde?: Bunthorne.

Okay, I'll take a step backward here. I don't remember whether I have
checked the OED (which I'm away from right now) for "bun(s)" =
'buttocks' or "prick" (or similar words) = 'penis'. If both these are
attested in the period (1881:
http://www.nodanw.com/shows_p/patience.htm), I would call that strong
evidence that *somebody* was labeling the character 'participant in anal
intercourse'. That somebody needn't have been Gilbert; maybe someone
suggested the name and he was too innocent/highminded/unaware to catch
the implication. -- Or of course, the component meanings may not have
been (provably) in use at the time; or even if they were, it could have
been (unprovably) coincidence.

* But none of this really affects the understanding of "give him one".

-- Mark A. Mandel


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Jun 21 16:11:14 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:11:14 -0400
Subject: OED appeals-give him one
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.121114.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I'm not sure how far to take an argument from presumed intention.  St. James's Park is said to have had a reputation for rogues and prostitutes, so "have sex" is certainly a plausible take on the line's meaning. Like other respectable men of the period, Gilbert knew a thing or two about London's underworld.  On the other hand, if he were challenged, I'm sure he would have said that he meant only a kiss, just as he denied that there was any connection between his Ruler of the Queen's Navee in H.M.S. Pinafore who had never been to sea and the similar real-life First Lord of the Admiralty.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Coye [mailto:Dalecoye at AOL.COM]
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 11:45 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: OED appeals-give him one

> On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 03:53:12PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>
> > I noticed that the nominally updated appeal for "to give someone
> >one" (=sex) doesn't recognize my antedating to Gilbert & Sullivan's
> >Iolanthe ("I heard the minx remark, She'd meet him after dark Inside
> >St. James's Park And give him one").
>
> This antedating has been entered in OED, and the relevant entry will
> probably be published in next quarter's batch.
>
> But the Iolanthe example can't mean 'have sex', can it?  If Gilbert had
> thought it had even a hint of that meaning he never would have put it in
> the play.  I always thought it meant that Iolanthe would 'give him a kiss'.
>   Gilbert prided himself on putting on shows that made the theatre
> respectable as opposed to the French who had all kinds of naughty
> implications in their plays.  He was a pillar of respectability.  Maybe
> it's like the phrase 'to make love' which appears in old songs and meant
> something like 'say romantic things' or maybe 'kiss' but since the 60s at
> least has generally been understood to mean copulation.
>
> Dale Coye
>


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 21 16:09:38 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:09:38 EDT
Subject: A pair pants/ next store vs next door
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.120938.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/21/02 1:04:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU writes:

> The "next store" one sounds like one of those
>  "plausible" stories circulated on the internet, but he swears it really
>  happened.  <snip>
>
>  On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Robert Houston wrote:
>
>  Dear Rudy,
>
>          Reminds me of the time I was trying to get my class to learn to
> write
>  "a couple of things," vs. "a couple things." by saying to them, "After all,
>  you don't say 'a pair pants,' do you?"  One poor kid from NYC looked
>  stricken and said, "I say that.  Is it wrong?"

An elementary school teacher of mine told about the kid from some backwoods
area whose grammar was, shall we say, somewhere below substandard.  One day
he got an A on a (presumably multiple choice) English test.  When asked how
he did it, he said he looked at all the answers and picked the one that
sounded least right to him.

>  And that ranks up there with the freshman girl from Brooklyn who was raised
>  in an apartment above her parents' Italian grocery store, on a street
>  where all her neighbors lived in like circumstances.  Until I found that
out
>  about her, I was going nuts trying to figure out why she keep writing
>  "next store" for "next door."

Unlike alligators in the New York sewers, I cannot see anything implausible
in this story.  As a kid I was convinced "next store" was the proper term and
had to be talked into believing it was "next door".  I was also sure that
people said they were going to do such and such "the safternoon".

                        - Jim Landau (hopefully with adult speech patterns
now)

P.S.  Did I just say that New York alligators don't believe people live over
grocery stores?


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Fri Jun 21 16:36:36 2002
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:36:36 -0400
Subject: Klezmer (M-W 1949, OED no entry?)
In-Reply-To: <20020621125623.GA19100@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.123636.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:56 AM 6/21/02 -0400, BArry Popik wrote:
>  I decided see OED's "klezmer," an Jewish instrument [sic] surely as old
> as the bagel.  OED has no entry.  I tried "klez*".  It's not there!  THIS
> IS HORRIBLE!


The first cite in the New York Times is in 1944, Dec. 4, "The first of a
series of five programs on 'Folk Art in Jewish Tradition,' to be directed
by Corinne Cochem and sponsored by the Seminary School of Jewish Studies,
will be given at 8:45 o'clock tonight in the Unterberg Auditorium and 122d
Street. Tonight's program will be 'At Jewish Weddings,' consisting of
excerpts from wedding songs sung by the Klezmer, itinerant musicians in
Eastern Europe who played at wedding parties. Miss Cochem will teach the
audience the Shers, which are traditional folk dances for weddings."

I know it doesn't antedate the draft the OED has going but, and forgive me
if this is overstepping my boundaries, it seems unsurprising to me that a
Yiddish word that doesn't show up in a publication that serves as the paper
for a city with a population of 1,750,000 mostly Ashkenazi Jews (1914 est.
today's slightly less at 1.5 million) until 1944, is absent from a
publication that hails from a country that has a current Jewish population
of roughly  .4 %

It is in the New Oxford American.

Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 21 16:49:41 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:49:41 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <3D131BCD.FB0A262D@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.124941.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Thomas Paikeday wrote:

> "American and British dictionaries have no clear notion of the female
> genitals." Visit: www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index/htm. (Hint: click
> "Trademark Affidavits").

I couldn't access this page.

Is the URL right?

-- Steve


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 21 16:55:35 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:55:35 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0206211248500.19423-100000@panix1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.125535.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 12:49:41PM -0400, Steve Kl. wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
>
> > "American and British dictionaries have no clear notion of the female
> > genitals." Visit: www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index/htm. (Hint: click
> > "Trademark Affidavits").
>
> I couldn't access this page.
>
> Is the URL right?

No, it should end in "index.htm"
                           ^

JTS


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Jun 21 17:09:44 2002
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:09:44 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic (SORRY ABOUT ERROR)
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.130944.0400.>

Hi All!

Thanks, Grant, for the message. The correct URL is:

www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index.htm.

My last goof of the day, I hope. Sorry about that. A consultant in New
York was also helpful.

Thanks again.

TOM PAIKEDAY

Grant Barrett wrote:
>
> On 6/21/02 08:27, "Thomas Paikeday" <t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA> wrote:
>
> > Hi All Men,
> >
> > "American and British dictionaries have no clear notion of the female
> > genitals." Visit: www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index/htm. (Hint: click
>
> That URL does not work for me.
>
> --
>
> Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
> gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
> http://www.worldnewyork.org/


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 21 17:06:54 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:06:54 EDT
Subject: OED appeals-give him one
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.130654.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/21/02 12:03:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mam at THEWORLD.COM writes:

>  ...the name of the main character in "Patience",
>  who is a caricature of Oscar Wilde?: Bunthorne.
>
>  Okay, I'll take a step backward here. I don't remember whether I have
>  checked the OED (which I'm away from right now) for "bun(s)" =
>  'buttocks' or "prick" (or similar words) = 'penis'. If both these are
>  attested in the period (1881:
>  http://www.nodanw.com/shows_p/patience.htm), I would call that strong
>  evidence that *somebody* was labeling the character 'participant in anal
>  intercourse'. That somebody needn't have been Gilbert; maybe someone
>  suggested the name and he was too innocent/highminded/unaware to catch
>  the implication. -- Or of course, the component meanings may not have
>  been (provably) in use at the time; or even if they were, it could have
>  been (unprovably) coincidence.

Several objections.

Patience was first performed in 1881 and Oscar Wilde was not publicly accused
of "sodomy" until the mid 1890's (his court trials were in 1895, and were the
result of a homosexual affair which did not begin until 1891.)

Who said Bunthorne was a caricature of Wilde?  The actor who first played
Bunthorne was made up to look like Wilde's colleague in the Aesthetic
Movement, John Ruskin, including Ruskin's characteristic shock of white hair.
 Contemporary opinion was that the character of Reginald Grosvenor
represented Wilde.

Wilde liked the play.  And of course the play did much to advertise the
Aesthetic Movement, which many in 1881 had thought to be a dying movement.

If you insist that "bunthorne" = buttocks + prick, then consider that the
origin of "Patience" was one of GIlbert's Bab Ballads entitled "The Rival
Curates".  Gilbert apparently decided that religion was too delicate a topic
for his satire, so he switched to poets (and Army officers).  If Gilbert were
trying to slip in something about anal intercourse,  churchmen were a much
more obvious target than poets.

      From the vicarage down in the plain
      Came a cry of extraordinary pain
           Goodness gracious!
           Has Father Ignatius
      Forgotten the Bishop's piles again?

Actually any all-male lifestyle group (including Heavy Dragoons) gets accused
of mass homosexuality:

      The juniors up at Yale get no tail
      The juniors up at Yale get no tail
            To alleviate their yen
            They go out with Harvard men
      The juniors up at Yale get no tail

      The sophomores up at Yale get no tail
      The sophomores up at Yale get no tail
            So half the freshman class
            Has to take it up the ass
      The sophomores up at Yale get no tail
                   (same tume as for "The Great Historical Bum")

Above are quoted from memory----I can't remember what was sung about the
seniors.

             - Jim Landau

P.S. The title line can be construed as "he's earned an appeal to Oxford, so
give him one".


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Jun 21 17:26:20 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:26:20 -0400
Subject: OED appeals-give him one
In-Reply-To: <d2.19e0f1bb.2a44b72e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.132620.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

#Several objections.

I am answered.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Jun 21 17:43:31 2002
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:43:31 -0400
Subject: OED appeals-give him one
In-Reply-To: <88.19f3c81c.2a44a418@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.134331.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:45 AM 6/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 06/20/2002 5:27:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>jester at PANIX.COM writes:
>
>
> > On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 03:53:12PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
> >
> > > I noticed that the nominally updated appeal for "to give someone
> > >one" (=sex) doesn't recognize my antedating to Gilbert & Sullivan's
> > >Iolanthe ("I heard the minx remark, She'd meet him after dark Inside
> > >St. James's Park And give him one").
> >
> > This antedating has been entered in OED, and the relevant entry will
> > probably be published in next quarter's batch.
> >
> > But the Iolanthe example can't mean 'have sex', can it?  If Gilbert had
> > thought it had even a hint of that meaning he never would have put it in
> > the play.  I always thought it meant that Iolanthe would 'give him a kiss'.
> >   Gilbert prided himself on putting on shows that made the theatre
> > respectable as opposed to the French who had all kinds of naughty
> > implications in their plays.  He was a pillar of respectability.  Maybe
> > it's like the phrase 'to make love' which appears in old songs and meant
> > something like 'say romantic things' or maybe 'kiss' but since the 60s at
> > least has generally been understood to mean copulation.
> >
> > Dale Coye

As it happens, I rented the '50s movie "Picnic" a few days ago and was
struck by a conversation between the lead female (Kim Novak) and her
mother.  The mother asks (about the drifter, played by Bill Holden), "Does
he make love?" (not "to you," as I recall)  "Well, we kiss a little" (I
paraphrase).  "I mean, does he want to do anything more?" etc. etc.  The
whole movie seemed terribly dated--and I used to think it was the epitome
of romance. . . .

BTW, "drifter" reminds me of "Grifter."  I never saw that movie; what the
heck is a grifter?

_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Fri Jun 21 19:04:07 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:04:07 -0500
Subject: comparatives of front and back
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.140407.0500.>

When describing the relative positions of vowels, I commonly use
"fronter" and "backer" as comparatives (e.g., /i/ is fronter than /I/).
Students often react to this usage as if I'm being cute. A non-linguist
copyeditor has queried these words. I thought this usage was common in
phonetics.  Can anyone confirm that ?


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Jun 21 20:49:15 2002
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 16:49:15 -0400
Subject: "Watchable wildlife"
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.164915.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Watchable wildlife" means "wildlife available for watching"
or "accesible to wildlife watchers".  One guidebook company (Falcon, of
Helena, Mont.) publishes "The Watchable wildlife series" of state
guidebooks, for instance "West Virginia wildlife viewing guide" by Mark
Damian Duda.  This draws the subject labels "Wildlife viewing sites--
West Virginia--Guidebooks" and "Wildlife watching--  West Virginia--
Guidebooks".  Another title in the series -- apparently 25 to date --
is Tennessee wildlife viewing guide, by Paul B. Hamel, publ.
1993.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:17 pm
Subject: Re: OED appeals list

> On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Jesse Sheidlower commented on the sense of
> "machinable."
>
> I have been wondering about the range of the -able adjectives. The
> stateof TN sells a wildlife license plate whose slogan I find
> particularlyobnoxious: Watchable Wildlife.
>
> I suppose that anything visible is "watchable." I also suppose
> that by
> "watchable" the state means something like "worth watching" or
> "beautifulto look at" - doesn't seem to work, to me.
>
> Bethany
>


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Fri Jun 21 20:55:18 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 16:55:18 -0400
Subject: "Watchable wildlife"
In-Reply-To: <25a203f25a7aad.25a7aad25a203f@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.165518.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, George Thompson wrote:

>"Watchable wildlife" means "wildlife available for watching"
>or "accesible to wildlife watchers".  One guidebook company (Falcon, of

Means that to whom? The license plates have photos of birds on them. It
would never have occurred to me that the legislature meant "accessible to
wildlife watchers."

Bethany


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Jun 21 23:43:32 2002
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 19:43:32 -0400
Subject: "Watchable wildlife"
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.194332.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One never knows what a legislature intends.  But among wildlife-
voyeurs, of which I am one, I think the phrase is taken to mean that
whereas most wildlife, other than birds, is elusive and seldom seen,
there are some spots where the chances of seeing an interesting critter
is better than usual.  I recall being referred to the town dump in
Kokajo, Maine, to see black bears -- it's where the family spent my
daughter's 16th birthday evening, in fact -- and a road in the
Greenville area impregnated with salt that attracted moose.  I don't
actually own any of the "watchable wildlife" guides, but I have I think
glanced over them in wildlife refuge shops and believe that this is
their purpose.  It seems that the Tennessee legislature is trying to
lure tourists with a doubtful claim that the entire state swarms with
critters?

GAT (the elusive librarian who has made himself temporarily accessible;
back to my den)


George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU>
Date: Friday, June 21, 2002 4:55 pm
Subject: Re: "Watchable wildlife"

> On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, George Thompson wrote:
>
> >"Watchable wildlife" means "wildlife available for watching"
> >or "accesible to wildlife watchers".  One guidebook company
> (Falcon, of
>
> Means that to whom? The license plates have photos of birds on
> them. It
> would never have occurred to me that the legislature meant
> "accessible to
> wildlife watchers."
>
> Bethany
>


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Sat Jun 22 01:44:40 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 21:44:40 -0400
Subject: "Watchable wildlife"
In-Reply-To: <25faff425fb595.25fb59525faff4@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.214440.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, George Thompson wrote:

>One never knows what a legislature intends.  But among wildlife-
>voyeurs, of which I am one, I think the phrase is taken to mean that
>whereas most wildlife, other than birds, is elusive and seldom seen,
>there are some spots where the chances of seeing an interesting critter
>is better than usual.  I recall being referred to the town dump in

Interesting. Don't go back into hiding yet, please. Do wildlife voyeurs
actually use the word "watchable" that way - or do you just accept that
others do? I.e., would you say that such-a-such a place has lots of
"watchable wildlife"?

Bethany


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 22 01:49:45 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 21:49:45 EDT
Subject: "Watchable wildlife"
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.214945.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/21/2002 7:43:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes:

> GAT (the elusive librarian who has made himself temporarily accessible;
>  back to my den)

If you are back in your den, does that mean you are no longer watchable?


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Jun 22 04:25:34 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 21:25:34 -0700
Subject: Fronter and Backer
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.212534.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Matthew,

        I'd certainly say this in class, right along with higher and
lower, but some intuition tells me I probably wouldn't write it, resorting
instead to the awkward locution "further front" and "further back". I
certainly could not bring myself to use "more front" or "more back". Larry
will probably tell us that "front" and "back" are not gradable per se. It
is interesting that one dimension would be gradadable and another not.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention (it's always interesting how
out-of-awareness so much of language is, even for linguists).

        Rudy

P.S. I do use (in class) Haj Ross' famous "squish" comparisons: some words
are nounier and other words are verbier.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Jun 22 04:33:00 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 21:33:00 -0700
Subject: next store (= next door)
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.213300.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks to Jim Landau for confirming "next store" and adding "the
safternoon".  It reminded me of a phrase my mother used to use, saying
that someone putting on airs was acting like  "Mrs. Astor's poodledog".
I interpreted this mentally as "Mrs. Astrous Poodledog", imagining this
ostentatiously wealthy woman, and only a few years ago, when it came
to mind, I suddenly realized the misanalysis.

        Rudy


From fukaya at USC.EDU  Sat Jun 22 05:04:27 2002
From: fukaya at USC.EDU (Teruhiko Fukaya)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 22:04:27 -0700
Subject: a Yankee dime
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.220427.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I came across a sentence like the following in a novel: "He didn't give a Yankee dime about anyone
but himself."  From the context, it apparently means, "He didn't care about anyone but himself."
Since I couldn't find the expression in the dictionaries I have, I ran some search on the Internet
and found out that the expression "a Yankee dime" means "a quick kiss on the cheek" in the Southern
dialect, but nowhere could I find an explanation why it came to mean that.  Does anyone know the
etymology of this expression by any chance?  Also, how common is the expression in the South?  Thank
you in advance for your help.

Teru


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Sat Jun 22 09:33:53 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:33:53 +0100
Subject: OED appeals-give him one
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.103353.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bunthorne: Jesse may have dealt with this already (my email has been down)
but _bun(s)_ does not exist as _buttock(s)_ in slang at late 19C. Neither
Farmer and Henley nor Barrere and Leland list it. It does mean the tail of a
hare in Scotland/northern dialect (as cited in OED2), so Gilbert might have
been suggesting that (and 'tail' in sexual contexts has of course a much
older pedigree) - but I for one seriously doubt it.

As for 'give him one' = sex in 19C. Again, the usage seems to have eluded
the two major dictionaries of the 1880s-1900s although there are an number
of 'give her . . .' phrases denoting intercourse. And given the mores
(general and those credited to Gilbert) it does seem somewhat ahead of its
time. As Jesse says, what we need is a good attestation from contmporary
pornography. But while I have, for starters, read all 1000+ pages of _My
Secret Life_ - sadly it isn't there.

Jonathon Green


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun 22 11:53:40 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 07:53:40 -0400
Subject: Fronter and Backer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0206212117350.21773-100000@bast.u.arizona.ed u>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.075340.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>         I'd certainly say this in class, right along with higher and
>lower, but some intuition tells me I probably wouldn't write it, resorting
>instead to the awkward locution "further front" and "further back". I
>certainly could not bring myself to use "more front" or "more back". Larry
>will probably tell us that "front" and "back" are not gradable per se. It
>is interesting that one dimension would be gradadable and another not.
>Thanks for bringing this to our attention (it's always interesting how
>out-of-awareness so much of language is, even for linguists).

I think "fronter" and "backer" in their usual general senses are analogous
not to "higher" and "lower" but rather to "topper" and "bottomer".

I think the phonetics use is a special one, and the comparatives here don't
seem so wrong to me.

-- Doug Wilson


From LJT777 at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 22 14:09:16 2002
From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:09:16 EDT
Subject: a Yankee dime
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.100916.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I grew up in the South (1950's) hearing my mother, a Mississippian, use this
expression occasionally to mean that something was worth little or nothing,
but I have since asked others from the region if they were familiar with it
and been told no.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 22 14:33:23 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:33:23 EDT
Subject: a Yankee dime
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.103323.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/22/2002 1:15:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fukaya at USC.EDU writes:

> I came across a sentence like the following in a novel: "He didn't give a
> Yankee dime about anyone
>  but himself."  From the context, it apparently means, "He didn't care
about
> anyone but himself."
>  Since I couldn't find the expression in the dictionaries I have, I ran
some
> search on the Internet
>  and found out that the expression "a Yankee dime" means "a quick kiss on
the
> cheek" in the Southern
>  dialect, but nowhere could I find an explanation why it came to mean that.

A long-shot guess:  "Yankee dime" is a polite rendering of the old expression
"tinker's damn" (sometimes written "tinker's dam") as in "not worth a
tinker's damn", for which the OED2 gives an 1839 citation from, of all
people, Thoreau.  Another variation is "I don't give a tinker's damn" which
is close to your quote, with "Yankee dime" a phonetically plausible but
dubious bowdlerization.

Interestingly, I have heard "Continental damn", apparently a conflation of
"not worth a Continental" and "tinker's damn".

      James A. Landau


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 22 14:34:19 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:34:19 -0400
Subject: a Yankee dime
In-Reply-To: <173.a269028.2a45df0c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.103419.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Could this be a sarcastic invention based on the old "Not worth a
confederate [money unit]" and the older "Not worth a continental
[money unit]," although the latter has the money unit as optional?

dInIs

>I grew up in the South (1950's) hearing my mother, a Mississippian, use this
>expression occasionally to mean that something was worth little or nothing,
>but I have since asked others from the region if they were familiar with it
>and been told no.

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 22 14:37:21 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:37:21 -0400
Subject: a Yankee dime
In-Reply-To: <1bf.576add6.2a45e4b3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.103721.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As I recall "tinker's dam" is originally "dam" (not "damn"), and
referred to the worthless, temporary wax "dam" that tinker's used in
their soldering work.

dInIs

>In a message dated 06/22/2002 1:15:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>fukaya at USC.EDU writes:
>
>>  I came across a sentence like the following in a novel: "He didn't give a
>>  Yankee dime about anyone
>>   but himself."  From the context, it apparently means, "He didn't care
>about
>>  anyone but himself."
>>   Since I couldn't find the expression in the dictionaries I have, I ran
>some
>>  search on the Internet
>>   and found out that the expression "a Yankee dime" means "a quick kiss on
>the
>>  cheek" in the Southern
>>   dialect, but nowhere could I find an explanation why it came to mean that.
>
>A long-shot guess:  "Yankee dime" is a polite rendering of the old expression
>"tinker's damn" (sometimes written "tinker's dam") as in "not worth a
>tinker's damn", for which the OED2 gives an 1839 citation from, of all
>people, Thoreau.  Another variation is "I don't give a tinker's damn" which
>is close to your quote, with "Yankee dime" a phonetically plausible but
>dubious bowdlerization.
>
>Interestingly, I have heard "Continental damn", apparently a conflation of
>"not worth a Continental" and "tinker's damn".
>
>       James A. Landau

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 22 14:51:10 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:51:10 EDT
Subject: Fronter and Backer
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.105110.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/22/2002 12:25:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU writes:

>  Larry will probably tell us that "front" and "back" are not gradable per
se. It
>  is interesting that one dimension would be gradadable and another not.

Yes, the dimension is gradable: "further forward" and "further back".  You
can also say "more forward" and "more backward" but "backward" has all sorts
of other meanings, e.g. retarded, backwoods, behind-the-times, underdeveloped
(referring to countries,the long-standing PC term is "developing").  Or you
could use the nautical terms "forward" and "aft" (with superlatives
"forwardmost" and "aftermost"), but I'm sure even a freshman linguistics
class would find that strange.  Hmm, It would make a great skit at the MLA
convention to talk about "bower vowels" and "sterner vowels".

If you think the front-back dimension is clumsy when it comes to gradation,
consider the left-right dimension.  Someone who speaks out of the side of his
mouth has "liberal" and "conservative" phonemes?  Or "starboarder" and
"porter" phoenemes and can be said to have a bad case of the yaws?

      Jim Landau


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 22 15:00:50 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:00:50 -0400
Subject: Fronter and Backer
In-Reply-To: <69.28f074de.2a45e8de@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.110050.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hmm. It would make a great hit at MLA just to mention vowels. I
reckon you meant ADS or LSA.

Once I remember working a crossword puzzle on a long international
flight. I usually hop through them fast,  getting the really easy
ones (like What's the mid-central lax vowel", actually one of the
first questions in a Playboy "All-time hard crossword puzzle of
several years ago). When I hit a three-letter slot, the clue for
which was "Linguists' Org." I promptly put in LSA. Later words showed
I was wrong, and I discovered, much to my amusement, that they wanted
MLA.

When I was learning Xhosa, I asked the instructor if the lateral
click was made on one side or the other (after I discovered I could
do it only on the left). He thought it was a strange question. Port
and starboard laterality never occurred to me (not to mention
"porter" and "starboarder").

dInIs

>In a message dated 06/22/2002 12:25:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU writes:
>
>>   Larry will probably tell us that "front" and "back" are not gradable per
>se. It
>>   is interesting that one dimension would be gradadable and another not.
>
>Yes, the dimension is gradable: "further forward" and "further back".  You
>can also say "more forward" and "more backward" but "backward" has all sorts
>of other meanings, e.g. retarded, backwoods, behind-the-times, underdeveloped
>(referring to countries,the long-standing PC term is "developing").  Or you
>could use the nautical terms "forward" and "aft" (with superlatives
>"forwardmost" and "aftermost"), but I'm sure even a freshman linguistics
>class would find that strange.  Hmm, It would make a great skit at the MLA
>convention to talk about "bower vowels" and "sterner vowels".
>
>If you think the front-back dimension is clumsy when it comes to gradation,
>consider the left-right dimension.  Someone who speaks out of the side of his
>mouth has "liberal" and "conservative" phonemes?  Or "starboarder" and
>"porter" phoenemes and can be said to have a bad case of the yaws?
>
>       Jim Landau

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Sat Jun 22 15:15:39 2002
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:15:39 -0400
Subject: tangent to fronter/backer
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.111539.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I make the speaking-to-horses click on the right side, but I'm right handed:
do left-handers click on the left side?
_________________________________
"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
--Albert Einstein


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Jun 22 15:39:25 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 08:39:25 -0700
Subject: a Yankee dime
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b93a3b94a1f9@[35.12.21.146]>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.083925.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> As I recall "tinker's dam" is originally "dam" (not "damn"), and
> referred to the worthless, temporary wax "dam" that tinker's used in
> their soldering work.

No, "damn" appears in 1839, while "dam" is 1877. And "tinker's curse" older
than either at 1824. "Dam," and the accompanying explanations, are a
bowdlerization.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 22 15:47:41 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:47:41 EDT
Subject: tangent to fronter/backer
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.114741.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/22/2002 11:14:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
einstein at FROGNET.NET writes:

> I make the speaking-to-horses click on the right side, but I'm right handed:
>  do left-handers click on the left side?

Not handedness.  Race.

Yes, race.

The white man (and white women, too) mounts horses from the left side.  I am
told the reason is that from the left allows one to use one's "strong right
arm" to aid in mounting.  Hence a white would "make the speaking-to-horses
click on the right side" since s/he is to the left and the horse is to the
right.

For some reason that no one has ever explained to me, Native Americans (or at
least the Plains Indians) always mounted a horse from the right.  And a
horse, I am told, once trained to being mounted from one side, will not let a
rider mount from the other side.

On Jeopardy once there were two white and one African-American contestants.
The question, answered by one of the whites, was about which side to mount a
horse from.  Alex Trebek accepted "what is from the left".  The correct
answer should have been "what is from the left if you're white, from the
right if you're a Native American, and you'll have to ask [the
African-American contestant] what he does."

By the way, my sister would like to know who Alex Trebek's dialect coach is.

     - Jim Landau

PS.  About identifying the "MLA" as a linguistics society---I recalled that
the ADS holds joint meetings with someone, and not having the newsletter
handy I couldn't look up who it was,  but the initials "MLA" came to mind.
This brings up a question: if there really were a "Modern Linguistics
Association", would it allow discussions of proto-Indo-European?


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 22 15:50:31 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:50:31 -0400
Subject: tangent to fronter/backer
In-Reply-To: <006f01c219ff$ab5626a0$3e0103d8@dbergdah1>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.115031.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I make my horse-click (and my Xhosa lateral click) on the left, and I
am right-handed. I find it difficult if not impossible to do on the
right.

dInIs

>I make the speaking-to-horses click on the right side, but I'm right handed:
>do left-handers click on the left side?
>_________________________________
>"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
>--Albert Einstein

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 22 15:55:22 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:55:22 -0400
Subject: tangent to fronter/backer
In-Reply-To: <a8.d61ae21.2a45f61d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.115522.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The ADS has now for several years met jointly with the LSA; it did
indeed formerly meet with the MLA. ADS still sponsors a section at
MLA (as it does at other meetings of related societies, e.g., NCTE).

dInIs


>
>PS.  About identifying the "MLA" as a linguistics society---I recalled that
>the ADS holds joint meetings with someone, and not having the newsletter
>handy I couldn't look up who it was,  but the initials "MLA" came to mind.
>This brings up a question: if there really were a "Modern Linguistics
>Association", would it allow discussions of proto-Indo-European?

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sat Jun 22 16:15:25 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 12:15:25 -0400
Subject: tangent to fronter/backer
In-Reply-To: <006f01c219ff$ab5626a0$3e0103d8@dbergdah1>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.121525.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David asks:
>I make the speaking-to-horses click on the right side, but I'm right handed:
>do left-handers click on the left side?
 ~~~~~~
While not actually on speaking terms with horses, I make the said click on
the left side.  I am right-handed and white.
A. Murie


From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Sat Jun 22 16:30:26 2002
From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Lynn Irons)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 12:30:26 -0400
Subject: Fronter and Backer
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.123026.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Matt,

Why not try to use the concept of peripheral/non-peripheral to
distinguish fronter and backer front and back vowels?

So we would have front peripheral, front non-peripheral, back
peripheral, back non-periperhal.


--
Virtually, Terry
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 22 17:36:16 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:36:16 -0400
Subject: Fronter and Backer
In-Reply-To: <3D14A622.B76E42A9@morehead-st.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.133616.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Terry,

Then a vowel slightly to the front of a non-peripheral front vowel
would be "peripheraler" (since your system gives us only two-degrees
of front-backness for front and back). I like "fronter" and "backer"
better than "peripheraler."

dInIs

>Matt,
>
>Why not try to use the concept of peripheral/non-peripheral to
>distinguish fronter and backer front and back vowels?
>
>So we would have front peripheral, front non-peripheral, back
>peripheral, back non-periperhal.
>
>
>--
>Virtually, Terry
>(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
>Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
>Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
>Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
>(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 22 18:55:59 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 14:55:59 EDT
Subject: Klezmer, Tshatshke, Chollah (1908)
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.145559.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From the UNIVERSAL JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA, Ktav Publishing House, NY, 1969, vol. 8, pg. 55:

   Toward the end of the Middle Ages a special form of instrumental music developed among the Jews of Eastern Europe, known as Klezmer (a corruption of the Hebrew _kele zemir_, "instruments of song").

("End of the Middle Ages."  Homer Simpson makes the OED before "klezmer"!  The "klezmer revival" was twenty years ago!  There are 100,000 "klezmer" hits on Google!  Aah!--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
GLIMPSES OF A STRANGE WORLD
by H. S. Stollnitz
Cambridge, Mass.
Printed for the Author
1908

Pg. 4:  ..."Shadchen" (marriage broker)...

Pg. 5:  ..."Cheesoron" (bodily disablement)...

Pg. 6:  ...he was at his "shadchanic" wits' end...

Pg. 7:  "...for none can make better 'Draidlach' (tops) for Hanucca, carve finer swords for Tisha b'ab, make louder sounding 'Grechotas' (whirligigs) and 'Hooman Kleppers' (knucklebones) for Purim, (Pg. 8--ed.) and his services are eagerly sought after before Pesach as a Matzoth 'stippler' (perforator), to say nothing of the wonderful soldiers adn animals which he draws and paints every year for Shevuos.

Pg. 9:  ...haunted by the proverb, "Viel (Pg. 10--ed.) M'loches und wenig B'rochos" ("Jack of all trades and master of none")...

Pg. 12:  "Mazol tov!  Mazol tov!"  (Good luck!  Good luck!)

Pg. 29:  ..."Yeshibahs"--Talmud schools--...

Pg. 39:  ...the "Shivah"--first seven days of mourning--...

Pg. 47 (Chapter title):  THE "BASKOL" OR ALL'S FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR

Pg. 75:  She asked him to sit down on his "peckel" (packet)...

Pg. 83:  ..."Chazan" (cantor)...

Pg. 92:  He spoke the prayer over the "Chalos" (shewbread), and the repast progressed amid joy and the expressions of mutual appreciation and encouragement, Chatskel remarking that such a broth would be good enough for even the richest man.  But when the "gefillte" fish were put on the table, accompanied by freshly grated horse-radish, Chatskel's eulogies for hissister Esther Leben were beyond limit...
(OED has 1937 for "challah"??--ed.)

Pg. 93:  Mother and daughter feared he had swallowed a fish bone, and Esther, in her remarkable presence of mind, grasped the "gefillte kishke" (filled intestine) and thrust it into the throat of her beloeved CHatskel, which process would surely have suffocated the agonized man had it not been for Esther's presence of mind quickly to pull it out again.
   Once more happiness reigned and Chatskel turned his voice for "Zemiros" (the table hymns).

Pg. 99:  If Chatskel had had more candles and coul have availed himself of the services of a "Shabbos goye" (a non-Jewish woman who goes about to light the fires in Jewish homes on the Sabbath), who knows when the singing would have ceased, but against force there is no resistance.

Pg. 101:  ..."Baldarsher" (wandering preacher)...

Pg. 102:  After "Havdolo" (separating the Sabbath from the week days)...

Pg. 103:  ..."Malave Demalkeh" (leave taking of queen Sabbath)...

Pg. 105:  "Am I a 'schorrer' (beggar)?"

Pg. 106:  After the young man had departed, Chatskel exclaimed: "What a 'Tshatshke'! (a noble person who gives joy to his fellow people, like a toy to the child)."

Pg. 112:  He jumped from his chair, indulged in a "Kosatske" (dance of the Cossacks) and shouted: "To the Jews there was light with gladness and joy and honor!"

Pg. 117:  Chatskel joined several "Chevras" (societies)...

Pg. 148:  ..."Balsottke" (secret keeper).
   (...)  "You know I'm not a 'Plotkarke' (tale-bearer)..."

Pg. 149:  "So may I lead my daughter under the 'Choope!' (canopy of matrimony)," assured a third.

Pg. 156:  ...a "Get" (divorce)...

Pg. 157:  ...the "Herem" (ban)...

Pg. 163:
   SHEEKA KLEZMER--NICKNAMED "MALPA"
   SHEEKA KLEZMER, nicknamed "Malpa" (Ape), on account of his extreme homeliness, made his entrance into this world unheralded by song or much ado.

Pg. 163:  ..."Pod Shammes" (under-beadle).

Pg. 169:  In Russian Poland the Jews celebrate by a "Foorshpiel."  On the Saturday evening prceding the wedding the bride orders the "Klezmoorim" (musicians), to her home, where are congregated her _single_ girl friends.  Besides the musicians, no one of the masculine sex is permitted to be present.  To avoid any possibility of the dancing damsels coming in contact with the musicians, a "M'khitza" (partition) of some kind is improvised.  If the bride is wealthy she defrays the expense for the music, but in cases of limited means the guests pay for the music by way of "Einvarf'n" (throwing in).

Pg. 170:  The highest priced is the "Akhtoorya,"eight participants constituting a set, similar to the "Francaise."  The "Foorshpiel" lasts as long as the musicians receive pay.  At the close the "Klezmoorim" usually throw in one dance gratis.

Pg. 175:  "May I live to lead you (Pg. 176--ed.) under the 'Khoopa' (canopy of wedlock), during the ensuing year."

Pg. 185:  "...'Yaksoonim' (superior families).  So also came your sainted mother from 'Lamdonim' (savants), and 'Tsadikim' (pious and righteous)."

Pg. 190:  "Often the unknown 'Bosyak' (tramp), we see in the last stages of life in drunkend madness, in the poorhouse, or in prison, is perhaps one of them."

Pg. 193:  Himself an ardent lover of music, Wielnik, at any other occasion, would have continued with his eulogy of Sheeka, but felt that he but added coal to the fire of his daughter's love, and he reproached himself inwardly for his imprudence.  "Of course I know him only as Sheeka the Klezmer," he continued.  "His attributes as a man are a revelation to me."


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Sat Jun 22 20:06:48 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 15:06:48 -0500
Subject: Fronter and Backer
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.150648.0500.>

Also, in the specific context 'peripheral' wouldn't work. The phrasing is
"higher F2 frequencies are judged to indicate fronter vowels".

"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:

> >Terry,
>
> Then a vowel slightly to the front of a non-peripheral front vowel
> would be "peripheraler" (since your system gives us only two-degrees
> of front-backness for front and back). I like "fronter" and "backer"
> better than "peripheraler."
>
> dInIs
>
> >Matt,
> >
> >Why not try to use the concept of peripheral/non-peripheral to
> >distinguish fronter and backer front and back vowels?
> >
> >So we would have front peripheral, front non-peripheral, back
> >peripheral, back non-periperhal.
> >
> >
> >--
> >Virtually, Terry
> >(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
> >Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
> >Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
> >Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
> >(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> 740 Wells Hall A
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
> Office - (517) 353-0740
> Fax - (517) 432-2736


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Sat Jun 22 20:56:42 2002
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 16:56:42 -0400
Subject: next store (= next door)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0206212125370.21773-100000@bast.u.arizona.ed u>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.165642.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Labov has an article (or presentation?) somewhere on this kind of
misanalysis, doesn't he?  I can't find it right now, but maybe someone else
can.  I hear a shift of final consonant to initial position in the
following word (the impetus for Labov's study, I believe) all the time on
local radio, and also on NPR.

At 09:33 PM 6/21/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Thanks to Jim Landau for confirming "next store" and adding "the
>safternoon".  It reminded me of a phrase my mother used to use, saying
>that someone putting on airs was acting like  "Mrs. Astor's poodledog".
>I interpreted this mentally as "Mrs. Astrous Poodledog", imagining this
>ostentatiously wealthy woman, and only a few years ago, when it came
>to mind, I suddenly realized the misanalysis.
>
>         Rudy


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 22 23:22:45 2002
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 19:22:45 EDT
Subject: Fronter and Backer
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.192245.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Highly suspect thoughts:

>>Or you could use the nautical terms "forward" and "aft" (with superlatives
"forwardmost" and "aftermost")<<

Wouldn't the superlative of "aft" be "aftmost"?  I could swear that's what
they say on Star Trek (i.e. aftmost lateral sensor array), but I could be
inventing that.

Also, of clicks and horses:

I'm white, I've never ridden a horse or had need to call one, Catholic
right-handed, and  I click on the left.  I can click on the right but find it
odd.  I was taught that clicking went with handedness (which I accepted since
I was originally left-handed).

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
In Transition...


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 22 23:32:20 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 19:32:20 -0400
Subject: Fronter and Backer
In-Reply-To: <63.d61026f.2a4660c5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.193220.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hmmm. It never occurred to me to note that I was not only old, male,
white, South-Midland (Louisville), half-hillbilly, half-Hungarian,
and right-handed but also fallen Baptist. Does that last make my
left-clicking suspect?

dInIs

PS: I have both rode and called the critters, but with no great skill.

>Highly suspect thoughts:
>
>>>Or you could use the nautical terms "forward" and "aft" (with superlatives
>"forwardmost" and "aftermost")<<
>
>Wouldn't the superlative of "aft" be "aftmost"?  I could swear that's what
>they say on Star Trek (i.e. aftmost lateral sensor array), but I could be
>inventing that.
>
>Also, of clicks and horses:
>
>I'm white, I've never ridden a horse or had need to call one, Catholic
>right-handed, and  I click on the left.  I can click on the right but find it
>odd.  I was taught that clicking went with handedness (which I accepted since
>I was originally left-handed).
>
>-dsb
>Douglas S. Bigham
>In Transition...

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 23 00:46:27 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 20:46:27 EDT
Subject: Shickzah, Jehudah, Meshumad (1872); Nebbish (1907)
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.204627.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SCHICKZAH, JEHUDAH, MESHUMAD

MIRIAM ROSENBAUM: A STORY OF JEWISH LIFE
by Rev. Dr. Edersheim (Alfred Edersheim, 1825-1889--ed.)
Boston: Henry Hoyt
1872

   I had about ten minutes to read through this book and made some quick
notes, mostly based on the footnoted terms.

Pg. 24:  ...Yom Kippur*...
*Day of Atonement.

Pg. 16:  ...Goj.*
*A gentile.

Pg. 16:  ...Poshe Yisroel.*
*An apostate in Israel.

Pg. 16:  ...Meshumad.*
*An apostate, literally, "One destroyed."
(The revised OED has 1892--Zangwill, of course--for "meshummad."  I'll be in
Alaska, but _anyone_ can request this book at the library for this full
cite--ed.)

Pg. 18:  ...Goyim*...
*Gentiles.

Pg. 18:  ...kerian*...
*Rending of garments in mourning for the dead.

Pg. 39: ...killah*...
*The Jewish congregation--properly, _Kehillah_.

Pg. 56: ..._havdalah_*...
*The separation between the Sabbath and the working week.

Pg. 57:  You forget even the incongruous presence of the _gojah_*...
*The Gentile servant...
(Shabbos-goye--ed.)

Pg. 77:  ...tallith*...
*The cloth with fringes, worn during prayer.

Pg. 78:  "Levi, is the shickzah* shikkor?**"" remonstrated Mrs. Rosenbaum.
(Is the creature drunk?)
*Shekez literally means abomination, and is in Scripture applied to unclean
fish, birfs, and other beasts.  It is an expression of contempt, chiefly
applied to Gnetiles.  Shickzah is the feminine of it.
**Intoxicated with drink.
(OED has 1892 for "shiksah," from someone named Zangwill--ed.)

Pg. 82:  ...galuth*...
*Exile and captivity.

Pg. 89:  _Anwalt_*...
*_Anwalt_ is the German equivalent for an attorney.

Pg. 128:  "A Jehudah?"* at last inquired Levi, almost repreaochfully.
*A Jew.
(OED has 1823 for "Yahudi," but not "Jehudah"--ed.)

Pg. 175:  "Anything will do--Pfefferkuchen* if you like," growled the other.
*Literally, Gingerbread.

Pg. 194:  ...Machsor*...
*The Jewish prayer-book.

Pg. 211:  ..."Neshomah Chappers"*...
*Literally, soul-catchers...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
NEBBISH

STORIES OF JEWISH HOME LIFE
by S. N. Mosenthal
Philadelphia: The Jewish Publication Society of America
1907

   I'll post Glossary entries, for whoever's interested.

Pg. 385:
   GLOSSARY

ARBA-KANFES.  Lit. "four corners." ...
AYIN HORA.  The evil eye.
BAR-MITZVAH...
BENSH GOMEL.  TO pronounce a blessing for escape from danger.
BOLES (Ger. ?).  A sort of cake.
BROCHE.  A benediction.
CHAMMER.  Ass; donkey.
CHEN.  Grace.
CHEVRE.  Society.
CHEVRE KADDISHE...
CHOSEN.  Bridegroom.
CHUPPE.  Marriage canopy.
DARSHEN.  To exdpound homiletically.
GAN-EDEN.  Paradise.
GOY (pl. GOYIM).  A non-Jew.
GROSCHEN (Ger.).  A small coin.
GULDEN (Ger.).  A florin.
HALLEL.  Lit. "praise." ...
HELLER (Ger.).  A small coin.
JUDENGASSE (Ger.).  Jews' Street.
JUDENSHUL (Ger.).  Synagogue.
KALLE.  Bride; affianced.
KIDDUSH...
KIDDUSH HA-SHEM...
KILLE.  Jewish congregation; Jewish community.
KOSHER.  Ritually permitted.
LEB (Ger. LEBEN).  Dear, my love; my life.
(Pg. 386--ed.)
LECHO DODI.  Lit. "Come, my beloved." ...
LO KOM. ...
LUACH.  Calendar.
MATZOS.  Unleavened bread.
MAZEL.  Luck.
MENUVELTE.  A homely, ungainly girl.
MESHORES.  Assistant; servant.
MINCHA.  Afternoon service.
MINYAN.  A company of ten men, the minimum for a public service.
MITZVE.  Duty, command; charity; the fulfilment of a command.
MOSHES RABBENI.  Moses our teacher.
MUHMLE (Ger.).  Diminutive of MUHME.  Aunt; cousin.
NEBBICH (Slavic).  An expression of pity or sympathy.  Poor thing!  Alas!
Too bad!
NIGUN.  Traditional chant.
OMEN VE-OMEN.  Amen and Amen.
OVINU MALKENU...
PARNESS.  The head of a congregation; the president.
PASKEN.  To decide according to the Rabbinic law.
PESACH.  Passover.
PURIM.  The Feast of Esther.
RAV.  Officiating rabbi.
REB.  Mr.
REBBETZIN.  Wife of a rabbi.
REICHSTHALEN (Ger.).  A dollar, the unit of currency.
ROSHE.  A malicious person; an Anti-Semite.
SCHLEMIHLTE.  Feminine form of SCHLEMIHL.
SCHNAPPESCHEN (Ger.).  A "drop" of whisky.
SCHNORR (ger.).  To beg.
SCHNORRER (Ger.).  Beggar.
SECHIE.  Advantage; privilege; joy.
SECHUS.  Merit; privilege.
SEDER...
SHABBES.  Sabbath.
SHABUOS.  Pentecost.
SHADCHONIM (pl.).  Marriage brokers.
SHAMMES.  Verger; beadle; sexton.
SHEM YISHMERENU.  The Lord preserve us!
SHEMA YISROEL.  Hear, O Israel!
SHICKSEL (Ger. suffix).  Drastic expression for a non-Jewish girl.
SHIDDECH.  Betrothal; an arranged match.
(Pg. 387--ed.)
SHIR HA-MAALOS.  Lit. "Song of the Degrees." ...
SHIVE.  Lit. "seven."  The seven days of mourning immediately after a death
occurs in a family.
SHMUES.  Hearsay; talk based on rumor.
SHTUSS.  Nonsense; folly.
SHUL (Ger. SCHUL).  Synagogue.
SIDDUR.  Prayer-book.
SIDDURL (Ger. suffix).  Diminutive of SIDDUR.
SUCCOS.  Feast of Tabernacles.
TACHSHID.  Jewel; ornament.
TEFILLIN.  Phylacteries.
THALER (Ger.).  Dollar.
TISH BE-AV...
TORAH...
TORAS MOSHE.  The Law of Moses.
TREIFES.  Ritually unfit for food.
TRENDERL (Ger.).  A sort of top, amde for children especially on Chanuccah.
UNBERUFEN (Ger.).  _Absit omen!_
UNBESCHRIBEN (Ger.).  _Absit omen!_
YEVORECHECHO.  (The Lord) bless thee!
YIDDE (Ger.).  Jews.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 23 01:49:58 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 21:49:58 EDT
Subject: Greek Salad (1935)
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.214958.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GREEK SALAD:
AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF GREEK TRAVEL
by Kenneth Matthews
London: Peter Davies
1935

Pg. 23:  Had I seen their less admirable national delicacies, the _kokoretsi_
or roasted sheep's guts, the _entradhes_ or fried lights, the _melitzanes_ or
stteped egg-plant, the _oktopodhi_ or most noisome cuttle-fish, I should have
realized what a happy effort of imagination had been made by the waiter...

Pg. 97:  Cafe-crawling is an inexpensive amusement...

Pg. 135:  We had _vissinada_, which is a syrup of sour cherries.

Pg. 183:  ..._baklava_ (a sticky cake) and _kouraviedhes_ (a kind of
shortbread).

Pg. 293:  She learnt what a salad was, the most ingenious of Greek salads
being a few pieces of tomato and cucumber laid side by side unskinned upon a
plate.  She was fascinated by the melange of fruit which we called ambrosia:
no Greek would dream of interfering with the natural state of any fruit
unless, possibly, to rinse the exocarp in a bowl of water.  (I have promised
the recipe for ambrosia and give it here, in what is necessarily
non-technical language: _Truncate a normal melon; scoop out the flesh and mix
it with skinned and seeded grapes and cut-up fresh figs; lose no juice; add a
dash of Samian wine; restore everything to the hollow interior of the melon
and place upon ice._  Very satisfactory.)

Pg. 311:  The drink of the people is the resinated wine called "retsinato."
(One OED hit, but not an entry--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
GREECE: HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS
by Karl Baedeker
Leipsic: Karl Baedeker
1889

   Some OED people have suggested that I type some more of this.  I won't
type the Greek letters; the transliteration should all be in italics.

Pg. xxv (Restaurants and Cafes.  Wine.  Tobacco.):  The Greek for portion is
-- (merida).
--(soupa), soup.
--(soumo), broth.
--(soupa chortaria), vegetable soup ("Julienne").
--(soupa avgolemono), soup with egg and lemon.
--(makaronia), maccaroni.
--(psito), roast meat.
--(psito vidello), roast beef.
--(psito arnaki), roast lamb.
--(hotellettes) or
--(brisola), cutlets.
--(bifteki), beefsteak.
--(chiromeri), vulg. --(sambouni, "jambon"), ham.
--(salami), --(salilsa (?--ed.)), sausage; -- (loukanika), small sausages.
----(kouopoulo), fowl.
--(frikasse), fricassee.
--(galopoulo), turkey.
--(bekatza), snipe.
--(china), goose.
--(papi), duck.
--(pedri), fish.
--(pedri mayonnes), fish mayonnaise.
--(stridia), oysters.
--(chaviari), caviare; --(lemoni), lemon.
--(chortaria), vegetables.
--(fasoulia), beans.
--(bisellia), peas.
--(kounoupidia), cauliflower.
--(krommidi), onions.
--(tomates), tomatoes.
--(tomates yemistes or yomistes), stuffed tomatoes.
--(pilfai), a kind of rich rice-pudding, like the Italian risotto.
--(atzem pilafi), "Persian pillau" of hashed mutton.
--(omletta), omelette.
--(youvarlakia), dumplings.
--(tsoutzoukakia), dumplings with garlic (skordo).
--(psomi), bread.
--(tiri), cheese.
-- or --(tiri tis Elvetias or tis Vitzeris), Gruyere cheese.
--, Roquefort cheese.
--(touloumotiri), goat's-milk cheese.
--(poudinga), pudding.
--(glikisma), sweets, pastry.
--(viskoto), biscuit.
--(chalva), a Turkish sweetmeat made of sesame and honey (--); other
sweetmeats are called baklava, galatopouriko, toukoumia (p. xxvi).
--(frouta), fruit.
--(milon), apple.
--(achladi), pear.
--(kerasia), cherries.
--(fraoules), strawberries.
--(stafilia), grapes.
--(stafides), raisins.
--(damaskina), plums.
--(rodanika), peaches.
--(verikoka), apricots.
--(amigdala), almonds.
--(sika), figs.
--(portokali), orange; mandarini, Manderine orange.
--(peponi), melon; -- (mia fetta p.), a slice of melon.

Pg.  xxvi:
   _Wine_...
   This flavour is particularly strong in the "Retsinat" of Attica (--,
krassi retsinato), which foreigners rarely learn to appreciate (see, however,
p. xxx).
(...)
   _Cafes_ (--, kafenia) of all kinds abound in Greece, from the wretched
wooden shed of the country-village up to the Atehnian establishments
handsomely fitted up in the Italian style.  The coffee (--, ena kafe, a cup
of coffee; --, dio kafedes, two cups of coffee) is generally good, but it is
invariably served in the Oriental manner, _i. e._ in small cups with the
grounds.  As a rule it is already sweetned (--, kafe gliko), but the visitor
may order wither a -- (kafe metrio), with little sugar, or a -- (kafe
scheto), with no sugar.  The usual charge is 10 c. per cup ( 16 c. at the
larger Athenian cafes).  It should be allowed to cool and "settle" and then
drunk carefully so as not to disturb the sediment at the bottom.--A favourite
refreshment of the Greeks is -- (loukoumi, pl. loukoumia), a confection
(resembling what is known in England as "Turkish  Delight") pf sweetned gum
and rose-water, often mixed with pistachio nuts.  ANother is -- (masticha), a
liquor distilled from the gums of the mastix, which forms a milky, opalescent
fluid when mixed with water.  The ordinary price for loukomi or masticha is
10 c.  The Greek for brandy is -- (raki, plo. rakia).


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 23 01:50:37 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 21:50:37 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
In-Reply-To: <f7.1cf64aa2.2a42280e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.215037.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

> wife-beater (sleeveless T-shirt, vest):
> antedate 1997

Here's earlier:


1994 _Boston Globe_ 28 Sept. [article beginning on page 35] (Nexis)

She also runs down a list of what's hot and what's not among GenXers these
days. Preppy is in, grunge is out. Lycra is out, vinyl is in. Bowling
shirts are in, wife beaters are out . . .

Whoa.

"When did bowling shirts take over for wife beating?" someone in the group
asks. Titters all around.

"Wife beaters, not wife beating," Rinzler says, laughing. "It's a kind of
shirt."


Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 23 02:10:56 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 22:10:56 -0400
Subject: Greek Salad (1935)
In-Reply-To: <17b.a1c8a5c.2a468346@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.221056.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> GREEK SALAD:
> AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF GREEK TRAVEL
> by Kenneth Matthews
> London: Peter Davies
> 1935

I am not sure whether Barry or I have previously contributed pre-1935
evidence of "Greek salad," but here's a 1922 citation:

1922 _N.Y. Times_ 4 Spet. 8  A Sunday dinner on Second Avenue is not
complete unless it begins with chopped chicken liver, chopped herring or
Greek salad, marked on the men uas "appetizer."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 23 07:36:52 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 03:36:52 EDT
Subject: Magen David, Oi Vey (1901)
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.033652.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

IDYLS OF THE GASS
by Martha Wolfenstein
1901
Books for Libraries Press, Freeport, NY
1969 reprint

   OED read this book and came away with three citations (shegetz, tsores,
and Yiddishkeit).


Pg. 15:  ...you would wonder at the joy with which one feeds for days on a
bit of Talmud wisdom, a "good word" which the rabbi gives forth in his weekly
_Shiur_ (Talmud lecture).

Pg. 21:  "What nonsense, the way she makes herself _meshugge_ (crazy) with
that _Yungel_ (little lad)!"

Pg. 25:  She has, _nebbich_, not much, and must work hard for her little bite
to eat.

Pg. 35:  ..._Backstub_ (bake-room)...

Pg. 36:  Odd times, when betrothals, weddings, and _Bar Mitzvahs_ were not
pressing, she filled in with the baking of small cakes, _Kuchele_, made of
almonds and hard-boiled eggs.

Pg. 48:  "_Mehlsupp' mit Spitzgerl_ (flour soup with mushrooms)," announced
his well-trained nose.

Pg. 52:  ..._Matzos_ (unleavened bread)...

Pg. 53:  ...rise and thus become leaven, in other words, _chometz_, unfit.

Pg. 53:  Each new group has a manner of its own, some running sbout and
shrieking like mad during the process; but good-natured ones let you help,
even to the punching of little (Pg. 54--ed.) holes with a _Radlech_ (little
rolling cog-wheel) into the unbaked cakes.

Pg. 62:  "Don't talk _Shtuss_ (nonsense), child!"

Pg. 65:  That's all very well, but his mother's nice holiday cheese--"_Ai,
wai!!_" and indignation got the upper hand.

Pg. 78:  "I'm struck dumb, O _wai!_" he thought.

Pg. 79:  "Oi!"

Pg. 90:  ,,,"She is a whole _Maggid_ (scholar, preacher)."
(OED has 1892, then 1901 for "Maggid"--ed/)

Pg. 108:  "_Shalet_, eggs, and +Kugel_!  Is that all?  Hm!  Reb Noach is also
one of those who lives only to eat!"

Pg. 111:  "Thou canst also sniff a little whether they have baked their
_Barches_ (Sabbath bread)."

Pg. 140:  "Now let her come and bake _Taschkerln_with this stuff!"

Pg. 170:  ..'Yes, 'tis the same one, of velvet, with the _Mogen Dovid_
(SHheld of David_worked in it...
 (The revised OED has 1904 for "Magen David"----ed.)


From r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU  Sun Jun 23 08:32:48 2002
From: r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:32:48 +1000
Subject: route
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.183248.1000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am trying to check if the root/raut pronunciation or "route" lines
up with the Mason-Dixon Line. Is this correct?
Many thanks
Roly Sussex

--
**********************************************************

Roly Sussex
Professor of Applied Language Studies
Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics
School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies
The University of Queensland
Brisbane
Queensland 4072
AUSTRALIA

Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403
Phone:  +61 7 3365 6896
Fax:    +61 7 3365 2798
Email:  r.sussex at mailbox.uq.edu.au
Web:    http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html
School's website:
        http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/

Language Talkback ABC radio:
Web:    http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/

**********************************************************


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sun Jun 23 11:22:20 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 07:22:20 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <a05111b1cb93b37fbc5da@[172.22.14.37]>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.072220.0400.>

On 6/23/02 04:32, "Prof. R. Sussex" <r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU> wrote:

> I am trying to check if the root/raut pronunciation or "route" lines
> up with the Mason-Dixon Line. Is this correct?
> Many thanks
>

I hope note. That division would leave out the third pronunciation, which
rhymes with foot or soot, and is used by my father who has an accent of the
Missouri-Arkansas Southern variety.

Grant


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sun Jun 23 14:00:05 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 10:00:05 -0400
Subject: The Phased vs. Fazed Confusion
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.100005.0400.>

I read a lot of fan fiction (looking for new talent) in which phased and
fazed are interchanged (usually phased where fazed should be), but I never
expected to come across it in the Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/23/magazine/23TVPILOT.html?pagewanted=2

Anders wasn't phased by CBS's call. The funds for just the presentation of
''In the Echo'' were still better than her entire budget for ''Things Behind
the Sun.'' ''It's like making a demo for a record company,'' she says. ''I'm
sure bands say, 'Why can't we just do the record?' But it makes it more
manageable for the network.''

(Another common fan fiction irritation: chuckled. Instead of writing dialog
which is actually funny, the writer simply writes any old thing and then
adds the attribution, "she chuckled." Automatic humor, right?)

Grant


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 23 15:03:31 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 11:03:31 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <a05111b1cb93b37fbc5da@[172.22.14.37]>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.110331.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Prof. R. Sussex wrote:
>I am trying to check if the root/raut pronunciation or "route" lines
>up with the Mason-Dixon Line. Is this correct?

You couldn't prove it by me. I grew up in the  1960's in the New York City
suburbs (well north of the Mason-Dixon line), and I grew up absolutely
confused as to which pronunciation was "right". It wasn't like "soda" vs
"pop", where I knew both pronunciations but was sure that "soda" was right
and "pop" was an interloper. It was more like "dived" vs "dove", where I
knew both pronunciations and was so confused that I resorted to
circumlocution to avoid committing myself to one or the other.


--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 23 15:22:13 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 11:22:13 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020623110058.00ab8938@haskins.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.112213.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm with Alice (well, I didn't grow up in NYC), but I am a honest
South-Midlander (Louisville, KY), and I cannot introspect which I use
(except I always sing 'root' in the song Route 66, but I suspect I am
Nat King Cole imitator in this).

There is  very good thesis (even a dissertation) in "failed
introspection" in the fuzzy borderland between psycho- and
sociolinguistics.

dInIs




>Prof. R. Sussex wrote:
>>I am trying to check if the root/raut pronunciation or "route" lines
>>up with the Mason-Dixon Line. Is this correct?
>
>You couldn't prove it by me. I grew up in the  1960's in the New York City
>suburbs (well north of the Mason-Dixon line), and I grew up absolutely
>confused as to which pronunciation was "right". It wasn't like "soda" vs
>"pop", where I knew both pronunciations but was sure that "soda" was right
>and "pop" was an interloper. It was more like "dived" vs "dove", where I
>knew both pronunciations and was so confused that I resorted to
>circumlocution to avoid committing myself to one or the other.
>
>
>--
>==============================================================================
>Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
>Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
>New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 23 15:33:41 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 11:33:41 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b93b974421b0@[35.12.20.211]>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.113341.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I'm with Alice ....

Me too. I'm from Detroit. I see the pronunciations /rut/, /raut/ (rhyming
with "boot", "gout") as about equally usual or standard; I think I use
/raut/ usually. I'm not familiar with /rUt/ (rhyming with "foot") for "route".

-- Doug Wilson


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sun Jun 23 15:53:38 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 11:53:38 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <a05111b1cb93b37fbc5da@[172.22.14.37]>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.115338.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Roly Sussex writes:
>I am trying to check if the root/raut pronunciation of "route" lines
>up with the Mason-Dixon Line. Is this correct?
 ~~~~~~~~~~
 I grew up in Nebraska, saying "root" because  my family did, but most of
our neighbors said "raut."

I'm assuming you mean root with the vowel of *food.*  For me it  (like
roof) also has a choice:  as either that of * food* or of *good.*  (I can
say either in both cases.)
A. Murie


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 23 16:04:49 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:04:49 -0400
Subject: a Yankee dime
In-Reply-To: <006f01c219aa$4f506a00$58e37d80@bluejay>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.120449.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I came across a sentence like the following in a novel: "He didn't give a
>Yankee dime about anyone
>but himself."  From the context, it apparently means, "He didn't care
>about anyone but himself."

In this example "didn't give a Yankee dime" = "didn't give a damn" (or "a
shit" or "a hoot", etc.). "Didn't give a kiss" is not ever used in this
manner as far as I know.

"Yankee dime" has three meanings to my knowledge:

(1) the basic denotation, "American [i.e., USA] dime", a small coin or
monetary unit;

(2) as a metaphor, like "thin dime", meaning a very small price or value,
as used above;

(3) as a southern slang term = "kiss".

I don't know why "Yankee dime" means "kiss". Maybe the original usage was
related to a kiss given as a token payment or a "thank-you" for some small
assistance. As far as I know, the Confederate States never minted or issued
a dime, so I suppose that USA dimes were in circulation at least to some
extent in the CSA (i.e., the seceded southern states) throughout the Civil
War and I suppose "Yankee dime" would have been redundant in most contexts.

It may be that the usage was originally (maybe is still) pejorative, with
the idea that a kiss is all the payment one can get from a stingy Yankee
(i.e., northerner) ... this would be analogous to "Dutch treat" = "no
treat" (originally maybe "the treat one can get from a stingy Dutchman", I
suppose).

Another possibility would be that "Yankee dime" meant "something small but
desirable", dating from the time after the Civil War when a USA dime would
have been more valuable than a (worthless) large CSA banknote, or dating
from slightly earlier when pessimistic/realistic CSA citizens hoarded
Yankee money in expectation of a Yankee victory.

[There is another southern expression sometimes cited for comparison:
"where the Yankee shot [somebody]" = "[somebody's]
navel/umbilicus/belly-button".]

When I get a chance, I'll see what I can find at the library ... unless one
of the local savants can provide more information?

-- Doug Wilson


From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Sun Jun 23 16:19:15 2002
From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:19:15 -0400
Subject: Fronter and Backer
In-Reply-To: <63.d61026f.2a4660c5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.121915.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

|o| Wouldn't the superlative of "aft" be "aftmost"?  I could swear
|o| that's what
|o| they say on Star Trek (i.e. aftmost lateral sensor array), but
|o| I could be
|o| inventing that.
|o|

As long as it was actually in the aftmost position, the one very farthest
aft, as opposed the aft array, which indicates only that it aft of midship.

rhk


From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Sun Jun 23 16:30:37 2002
From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:30:37 -0400
Subject: wife beaters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0206222148430.10483-100000@minerva.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.123037.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

|o| On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:
|o|
|o| > wife-beater (sleeveless T-shirt, vest):
|o| > antedate 1997
|o|

Certainly conjures visions of Marlon Brando as Stanley Kowalski in Street
Car Named Desire.
Maybe Jackie Gleason in the Honeymooners.

BTW, growing up, this kind of sleeveless t-shirt was known in my circle as a
Polish Smoking Jacket, which is odd because Polish was not a major ethnic
identity in North Texas.

rhk


From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Sun Jun 23 16:38:36 2002
From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:38:36 -0400
Subject: Flip, flop, or fly
In-Reply-To: <CPEBLEOMIFBBBHHMHKJGIEGACAAA.Rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.123836.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

used in the same was as "come hell or high water".

Heard this recently from a woman in her mid-50's who grew up in central MO.
She said that she'd heard it all her life and that her grandfather had used
it.

Interesting.  A quick search shows it being used now to advertise certain
aerial competitions like snowboarding, mountain biking, or boat towed belly
boards.

rhk


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 23 16:48:28 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:48:28 -0400
Subject: wife beaters
In-Reply-To: <CPEBLEOMIFBBBHHMHKJGCEGBCAAA.Rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.124828.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Some of the best culturally and linguistically preserved Polish
enclaves in America are in Texas (although that is no requirement for
"Polish jokes" - psiakrew cholera!).

dInIs



>|o| On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:
>|o|
>|o| > wife-beater (sleeveless T-shirt, vest):
>|o| > antedate 1997
>|o|
>
>Certainly conjures visions of Marlon Brando as Stanley Kowalski in Street
>Car Named Desire.
>Maybe Jackie Gleason in the Honeymooners.
>
>BTW, growing up, this kind of sleeveless t-shirt was known in my circle as a
>Polish Smoking Jacket, which is odd because Polish was not a major ethnic
>identity in North Texas.
>
>rhk

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Sun Jun 23 17:03:42 2002
From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 13:03:42 -0400
Subject: wife beaters
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b93babb0ee13@[35.12.22.76]>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.130342.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

|o| Some of the best culturally and linguistically preserved Polish
|o| enclaves in America are in Texas

I know that, but those are mostly in South Central & E-SE Texas, not a lot
up around Lubbock in the panhandle.

rhk


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 23 18:16:55 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:16:55 EDT
Subject: "Dime iss money," Judisch (1885); More Wolfenstein (1905)
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.141655.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

AS IT WAS WRITTEN:
A JEWISH MUSICIAN'S STORY
by Sidney Luksa ("pseud. of Henry Harland" is handwritten--ed.)
New York:  Casell * Company, Limited
1885 ("Copyright by O. M. Dunham")

   A "Yankee dime" is worthless?  "Dime iss money!"
   Check the online, full text, historical NEW YORK TIMES for "Yiddish" and
"Judisch."


Pg. 162:  "Doctor," I demanded, without ceremony, "am I a _Mamzer_?"
(...)(Pg. 163--ed.)  "What am I?  Tell me all about my father and mother."

Pg. 171:  He had a strong Jewish accent, thus: "Dime iss money."

Pg. 172:  Ah yes, yes: you are right.  He had a white beard.  He was also a
Jew.  We spoke in _Judisch_.  I remember."
(This is New York City in the 1880s.  "Judisch" or "Judisch Deutsch" is used
instead of the word "Yiddish"--ed.)

Pg. 176:  On her arrival, they held a brief conference together in _Judisch_.

Pg. 227:  ...I heard snatches from the chants the _Chazzan_ sings in the
synagogue...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
A RENEGADE
AND OTHER TALES
by Martha Wolfenstein
Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society of America
1905

   The expressions here are much the same as in IDYLS OF THE GASS (1901),
four years earlier.  I was running out of gas as I got to typing  "Mogen
Dovid."
   There are a few things new to this book, but no "bagels" or "latkes."

Pg. 35:  Then, that his text-books were used in every school in Austria, and
that he was making money "like hay."

Pg. 54:  "Nu,--Maseltow (good luck!)!"

Pg. 54:  "Kuchel (cookies)," cried the Gass.

Pg. 56:  "The Fresser (glutton)!" wailed the twigs.

Pg. 80:  "Reb Chaim Melamed (the teacher) has got the rheumatism," he went
on...
(The revised OED has 1892 for "melamed," of course from Zangwill.  Zangwill
is good, but in no way did he coin all of these words, or coin any of them.
That just shows the work that needs to be done to find earlier
citations--ed.)

Pg. 81:  "My breakfast.  Every day a thick slice of bread, on Tuesdays and
Thursdays flour-soup, and on Sunday a piece of Barches (Sabbath bread), if
may-be there is any left over," said Loebele.
(OED has no entry for "barches"?--ed.)

Pg. 84:  "Nu, and if!" cried Reb Chaim, angrily.
(He was trying out for the movie CLUELESS--ed.)

Pg. 85:  On the whole, he felt flattered that a solid Balbos (householder)
should accept him as a son-in-law...

Pg. 104:  "A Shlemiel, nebbich (poor fellow)," said the people, "to die of
starvation at his own father-in-law's door-step."
(OED has an 1892 Zangwill "nebbich," and then 1907--ed.)

Pg. 114:  "Meshugge (crazy)!" gasped Reb Noach, striking his
forehead--"stark, staring mad!"
(The revised OED has the 1892 Zangwill, then 1900, and then 1922 Joyce
ULYSSES--ed.)

Pg. 115:  "He has been such a big Trefa-Fresser (eater of the unclean) all
his life that the Lord will not even notice this little bit in the pile."

Pg. 117:  "May God defend everyone from the Makkes (beating) which will be
his portion in the Hereafter."
   "Trefa-Fresser!" they called him.
   "Poshe-Yisroel (sinner in Israel!)!" said the pious, and spat at the
mention of his name.  But the sage ones merely shrugged their shoulders, and
said, "A meshuggener Yud (crazy Jew)."

Pg. 121:  "...thou Omhoretz (ignoramus)!"

Pg. 124:  "Sit!" cried Shaye then, forcing Mendel into a chair, "and there
thou sittest until thou tellest me, once for all, what means all this
Meshuggas (craziness)."
(The revised OED has 1898, then 1907 for "meshuggas."  The 1898 is from
Zangwill, as usual, because no one reads anything else--ed.)

Pg. 187:  First of Genedel this: spiritually she represented the very essence
of beauty, but the visible part of her was just a dried up little mother with
a wizened face, stoop-shoulder, and a "Scheitel."
(OED has an 1892 Zangwill "sheitel," and then seemingly no one used the term
until 1957--ed.)

Pg. 195:  ...gave him wine and cake.  Nay, nay--none of your raisin wine and
(Pg. 196--ed.) home-made Dalklech.

Pg. 261:  Shpass, friends!

Pg.  264:  Laws--Shtuss!

Pg. 265:  Isaac used to say that the world is like a basket of onions.  Shake
it up as well as one will, by the time one arrives at the market, the wagon
will have jolted all the little ones to the bottom and all the big ones will
be on top.  So it is with people.
(Isaac was trying out for a part in the movie FORREST GUMP.  Seriously,
though, I've seen this proverb many times before in my work on "the big
apple."  Big apples are always seen as "top of the barrel"--ed.)

Pg. 316:  The Chutzpah!
(OED has the 1892 Zangwill, and then no one said "chutzpah" until 1945--ed.)


From Ittaob at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 23 18:58:03 2002
From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:58:03 EDT
Subject: route
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.145803.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The different pronunciations may have more to do with socio-economic levels
than geography.  In New York, anyway, you typically heard news reporters,
e.g., saying "root." When I worked in the Post Office in Queens in the 1970s,
on the other hand, the mail carriers universally refrred to their delivery
routes as "routs."

Steve Boatti


From Heaberlin at SWT.EDU  Sun Jun 23 19:23:26 2002
From: Heaberlin at SWT.EDU (Dickie Maurice Heaberlin)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:23:26 -0500
Subject: wife beaters
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.142326.0500.>

"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:

> Some of the best culturally and linguistically preserved Polish
> enclaves in America are in Texas (although that is no requirement for
> "Polish jokes" - psiakrew cholera!).
>
> dInIs

But not in North Texas, they are south of I 10 between Houston and San Antonio.

Dickie Heaberlin
San Marcos, Tx


From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM  Sun Jun 23 20:02:11 2002
From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:02:11 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <11c.130faac2.2a47743b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.160211.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

|o| e.g., saying "root." When I worked in the Post Office in Queens
|o| in the 1970s,
|o| on the other hand, the mail carriers universally referred to
|o| their delivery
|o| routes as "routs."

I'd never considered this but in my computer repair days, I had a rout--a
set of regular stops.  But if on vacation, I would plot a root on the
highway map, but I'd stop enrout to sleep.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sun Jun 23 20:06:51 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 13:06:51 -0700
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <CPEBLEOMIFBBBHHMHKJGGEGECAAA.Rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.130651.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I'd never considered this but in my computer repair days, I
> had a rout--a
> set of regular stops.  But if on vacation, I would plot a root on the
> highway map, but I'd stop enrout to sleep.

Speaking of computers, those pieces of equipment made by Cisco that make the
Internet run are (ObCaveat: almost) universally pronounced /routers/. No one
I know of calls them /rooters/, even me who grew up (in New Jersey)
pronouncing "route" as /root/.


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sun Jun 23 20:29:11 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:29:11 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <B93B27AC.4EDB%gbarrett@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.162911.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 6/23/02 04:32, "Prof. R. Sussex" <r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU> wrote:

# I am trying to check if the root/raut pronunciation or "route" lines
# up with the Mason-Dixon Line. Is this correct?
# Many thanks

My father, born 1919 in NYC and raised there, used /raUt/ in road names,
and I occasionally use it myself, learned from him. But he may have
picked that up in the Army in WW2.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 23 20:37:27 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:37:27 -0400
Subject: Jack Buck's "That's a winner!"
In-Reply-To: <20020619162513.GQ8217@chaos.wustl.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.163727.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:25 AM -0500 6/19/02, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
>
>I grew up in St. Louis with Jack Buck. He had the most unmistakable voice
>in broadcasting and radio will be less without him.
>[quoting some obituary:]
>  >From the 1985 World Series he is often remembered for the "Go Crazy Folks,
>Go Crazy!" jubilant cry at the game and series winning home run.
>
Can anyone clarify this reference for me?  First of all, it was
Kansas City that won that series (and the Cardinals that lost), and I
suspect Buck was enough of a homer [in the 'subjective', not
'four-bagger' sense] not to have exulted quite that jubilantly at the
result.  Second, the series-deciding 7th game was something like 9-0
(Saberhagen pitching the shutout), so there was no 'game and series
winning home run'.  Perhaps the playoffs (NLCS) preceding the series,
when the Cards beat the Dodgers on Jack Clark's homer, IIRC?

larry


From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU  Sun Jun 23 20:39:29 2002
From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:39:29 -0500
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <CPEBLEOMIFBBBHHMHKJGGEGECAAA.Rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.153929.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 6/23/02 3:02 PM, Rick H Kennerly at Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM wrote:

> |o| e.g., saying "root." When I worked in the Post Office in Queens
> |o| in the 1970s,
> |o| on the other hand, the mail carriers universally referred to
> |o| their delivery
> |o| routes as "routs."
>
> I'd never considered this but in my computer repair days, I had a rout--a
> set of regular stops.  But if on vacation, I would plot a root on the
> highway map, but I'd stop enrout to sleep.
>
And you can buy a router but not a rooter for computer networking.
DMLance


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 23 20:43:32 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:43:32 -0400
Subject: Jack Buck's "That's a winner!"
In-Reply-To: <p04320404b93bde561ec8@[130.132.245.155]>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.164332.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn wrote:
>At 11:25 AM -0500 6/19/02, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
>>
>>I grew up in St. Louis with Jack Buck. He had the most unmistakable voice
>>in broadcasting and radio will be less without him.
>>[quoting some obituary:]
>>  >From the 1985 World Series he is often remembered for the "Go Crazy Folks,
>>Go Crazy!" jubilant cry at the game and series winning home run.
>Can anyone clarify this reference for me?  First of all, it was
>Kansas City that won that series (and the Cardinals that lost), and I
>suspect Buck was enough of a homer [in the 'subjective', not
>'four-bagger' sense] not to have exulted quite that jubilantly at the
>result.  Second, the series-deciding 7th game was something like 9-0
>(Saberhagen pitching the shutout), so there was no 'game and series
>winning home run'.  Perhaps the playoffs (NLCS) preceding the series,
>when the Cards beat the Dodgers on Jack Clark's homer, IIRC?

By the third time that I saw the SportsCenter retrospective on Jack Buck, I
finally figured out that this call was from the end of game 6 of that
series. Ozzie's homer capped a come-from behind rally and forced a game 7.
I suppose I *could* check retrosheet, but I *should* weed my veggie garden.


--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 23 20:56:50 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:56:50 EDT
Subject: put-down
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.165650.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 5/28/2002 3:46:56 PM, savan at EROLS.COM writes:

<<       Does anyone know the origins of put-down as a noun? I see from the
OED that as a verb put down's meaning of "to 'take down'; to snub..."
goes way back. But I couldn't find it as a noun. I'm under the
impression (and I could be totally wrong) that the noun put-down really
got going during '50s and '60s stand-up comedy and that maybe Lenny
Bruce had something to do with it. Or perhaps it came out of sitcoms of
that era. Any ideas, anyone? >>

I remember teaching Shakespeare's "12th Night" in the late 1960s at Duke and
finding PUT DOWN used as a verb in that play (someone reports having seen
Malvolio "put down by a fool" and it seems clear from the context that
Shakespeare intended the term to mean to his hearers exactly what it would
mean to 20th and 21st Century Americans). I thought, "My goodness, this new
slang that my students are using is as old as Shakespeare, only they use it
as a noun instead of as a verb." I have no idea if there is a historical
connection, though--it could be that the 20th century sense was reinvented
independently. Or maybe even revived by Shakespeareans!


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 23 21:05:08 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:05:08 -0400
Subject: Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah (1922)
In-Reply-To: <156.f9ba53c.2a425fff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.170508.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:30 PM -0400 6/19/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    I asked the women's division of the Reconstructionist College for any "Bat
>Mitzvah" citation, and got the following response.  If rrc.edu doesn't have
>citations, no one does.  Judith Kaplan Eisenstein's husband was a college
>founder.
>--Barry Popik

In case anyone is unfamiliar with Reconstructionist Judaism, here's a
joke I just received:

Q:  How do Reconstructionists spell the name of the Deity?   Pr-cess.
A:  Pr-cess.



>--------------------------------------------
>
>Subj:   Judith Kaplan's bat mitzvah
>Date:   6/19/2002 1:47:56 PM Eastern Standard Time
>From:   <A HREF="mailto:dwaxman at rrc.edu">dwaxman at rrc.edu</A>
>To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
>Sent from the Internet (Details)
>
>
>
>Hello-
>
>I am currently writing a graduate seminar paper on the bat mitzvah
>ceremony at the Society for the Advancement of Judaism (SAJ), the
>synagogue founded by Dr. Mordecai M. Kaplan, Judith Kaplan's father.
>There was no secular press coverage of her bat mitzvah, which occurred
>on May 5, 1922, though I have not determined if it received coverage in
>the Jewish press (Anglo or Yiddish).
>
>The first reference to the "bas mitzvah" ceremony I have thus far
>encountered is in minutes of the SAJ Board of Trustees from early
>February 1922, shortly after the congregation was organized.  Dr. Kaplan
>informed the Board of his intention to introduce such a ceremony and let
>them know that he intended that his eldest daughter to be the first, and
>the Board assented with great enthusiasm.  I have not yet had an
>opportunity to review Kaplan's diary to determine if he wrote about the
>ceremony using this terminology earlier than that date, though if you
>check in with me again in a few weeks I hope to have made some headway
>on the diary.  I can also email you the precise date and language from
>the minute books if this is helpful.
>
>The synagogue standardized the usage to the Sephardic pronuciation "bat"
>mitzvah some time in the 30s.
>
>Deborah Waxman
>
>Rabbi Deborah Waxman
>Assistant to the President and Director of Special Projects
>Reconstructionist Rabbinical College
>1299 Church Road
>Wyncote, PA  19095
>(215) 576-0800 x113
>(215) 576-6143 (fax)


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 23 22:35:56 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:35:56 -0400
Subject: wife beaters
In-Reply-To: <CPEBLEOMIFBBBHHMHKJGMEGCCAAA.Rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.183556.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is Texas that big?

dInIs

>|o| Some of the best culturally and linguistically preserved Polish
>|o| enclaves in America are in Texas
>
>I know that, but those are mostly in South Central & E-SE Texas, not a lot
>up around Lubbock in the panhandle.
>
>rhk

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 23 22:36:42 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:36:42 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <11c.130faac2.2a47743b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.183642.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Class or register?

dInIs

>The different pronunciations may have more to do with socio-economic levels
>than geography.  In New York, anyway, you typically heard news reporters,
>e.g., saying "root." When I worked in the Post Office in Queens in the 1970s,
>on the other hand, the mail carriers universally refrred to their delivery
>routes as "routs."
>
>Steve Boatti

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 23 23:15:54 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 19:15:54 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b93bfde85216@[35.12.21.202]>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.191554.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>Class or register?
>
>dInIs
>
>>The different pronunciations may have more to do with socio-economic levels
>>than geography.  In New York, anyway, you typically heard news reporters,
>>e.g., saying "root." When I worked in the Post Office in Queens in the 1970s,
>>on the other hand, the mail carriers universally refrred to their delivery
>>routes as "routs."

My gut feeling is that it's class. I know that, growing up in the New York
area, I heard both pronunciations in what, had I heard the term in high
school, would have been the same register.

But, while we're at it, let's not discount the idea of lexicalization in
process. Arguably, "route" in "postal route" is a different lexeme than
"route" in "route 22". Not that postal workers in Queens would have had any
reason to talk about Route 22 in Westchester and further north...

Alice


--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From LJT777 at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 23 23:29:01 2002
From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 19:29:01 EDT
Subject: Passing along a friend's query...
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.192901.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Odd question for you: Do you recall the name for a child's habit of
rhyming words, usually beginning the second word with a "w," as in
"shoesy-woosie" or "palsy-walsy" or "silly-willy"? I think there is such a
term, but my efforts have met with negative results.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 00:18:30 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:18:30 EDT
Subject: Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah (1922)
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.201830.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/23/2002 5:04:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

> In case anyone is unfamiliar with Reconstructionist Judaism, here's a
>  joke I just received:
>
>  Q:  How do Reconstructionists spell the name of the Deity?   Pr-cess.
>  A:  Pr-cess.

I used that joke in a posting to ADS-L on June 10.  I heard it from a woman
named Rachel Braun circa 1980, so it's been around for a while.

     - Jim Landau


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Mon Jun 24 00:29:04 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:29:04 -0400
Subject: Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah (1922)
In-Reply-To: <d8.198be73e.2a47bf56@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.202904.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 23 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

>In a message dated 06/23/2002 5:04:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
>> In case anyone is unfamiliar with Reconstructionist Judaism, here's a
>>  joke I just received:
>>
>>  Q:  How do Reconstructionists spell the name of the Deity?   Pr-cess.
>>  A:  Pr-cess.
>
>I used that joke in a posting to ADS-L on June 10.  I heard it from a woman
>named Rachel Braun circa 1980, so it's been around for a while.

I'm glad someone got it. I didn't. Why is the word repeated? And how is it
pronounced?

Bethany


From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Jun 24 00:36:10 2002
From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 19:36:10 -0500
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b93bfde85216@[35.12.21.202]>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.193610.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 6/23/02 5:36 PM, Dennis R. Preston at preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU wrote:

>> Class or register?
>
> dInIs
>
>> The different pronunciations may have more to do with socio-economic levels
>> than geography.  In New York, anyway, you typically heard news reporters,
>> e.g., saying "root." When I worked in the Post Office in Queens in the 1970s,
>> on the other hand, the mail carriers universally refrred to their delivery
>> routes as "routs."
>>
>> Steve Boatti

Several months ago when I was looking over a paper I'd written on the
Cherokee Trail of Tears through Missouri, I noticed that I'd used 'route' a
number of times and wondered how I would say the word as I gave the
presentation.  As I was reading it, I noticed that sometimes I said -u- and
sometimes -au- but couldn't think fast enough while reading to see if I
could tell why I had used one or the other, and afterward I couldn't
remember where I'd used each.

For some people, the rute-pronunciation (Northern) may be considered more
elegant, but for me they're just interchangeable, though I might consciously
opt for rute in a very formal situation in which I suspect some people more
persnickety than dInis might be in the audience.

DMLance


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 00:39:25 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:39:25 EDT
Subject: route
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.203925.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/23/2002 4:33:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU writes:

> I am trying to check if the root/raut pronunciation or "route" lines
>  up with the Mason-Dixon Line. Is this correct?

I habitually say /raut/ for the noun, even in "rout 66".  I was born and
raised in Louisville, Kentucky.  However, I always pronounce "wash" as
/warsh/, rhyming with "harsh".


My daughter, born and raised here in South Jersey, says /root/ and had to
stop and think before remembering that some people said /raut/.  (She also
says /wash/).

My wife, born and raised in Detroit (with summers in adjacent Canada) says
/raut/ for both noun and verb "route", /reraut/ for "reroute", and /wash/.

I think that many /root/-sayers will say /raut/ for the verb, perhaps to
avoid confusion with the verb "to root".  My daughter says that it sounds
wrong to her ear to use "route" (either pronunciation) as a verb, but she
does admit to the existence of a verb reroute, which she pronounces /reroot/
and I pronounce /reraut/.

Be careful with referring to the "Mason-Dixon Line" which in reality was the
border between Maryland and Pennsylvania.  Here in South Jersey (near
Atlantic City) we are south of that line, were it extended eastward, and
extended westward the line would run somewhere close to Indianapolis.

There is a carpenter's tool known as a "router" which in my experience is
always pronounced /rauter/.  Perhaps this is to avoid confusion with a
Rotorooter.  I wonder if the message-switching computer was phonetically
named after the carpenter's tool.

At the FAA Tech Center, I work with "en-route" systems (as opposed to
"terminal" systems, which deal with takeoffs and landings).  Everybody at
work calls it /enroot/.  An obvious suggestion is that the French spelling
inspired a French pronunciation.

      James A. Landau
      systems engineer
      FAA Tech Center (ACB-510/BCI)
     Atlantic City Airport NJ 08405 USA


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 00:47:31 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:47:31 EDT
Subject: wife beaters
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.204731.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/23/2002 12:30:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM writes:

> BTW, growing up, this kind of sleeveless t-shirt was known in my circle as a
>  Polish Smoking Jacket, which is odd because Polish was not a major ethnic
>  identity in North Texas.

"Polish Smoking Jacket" for a sleeveless shirt is an obvious Polack joke,
since by definition a jacket has sleeves (else it is a cloak).

Speaking of ethnic slurs, an American who had lived in Europe told me that
the Dutch tell jokes about dumb Belgians who in turn tell jokes about stingy
Dutch (the example she gave was "How can you tell you're in the Netherlands?
By the toilet paper hanging up to dry on the clotheslines.")

      - Jim Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 01:09:59 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:09:59 EDT
Subject: Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah (1922)
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.210959.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/23/2002 8:29:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes:

> >>  Q:  How do Reconstructionists spell the name of the Deity?   Pr-cess.
>  >>  A:  Pr-cess.
>
>  I'm glad someone got it. I didn't. Why is the word repeated? And how is it
>  pronounced?
>

Repeating the word was a typo.

As for "how it is proinounced?", the proper question is whether it is
pronounced.

The Old Testament generally uses one of two names for the Deity.  One is
"Elohim"(frequently shortened to "El"), usually translated as "God".  The
other is the Tetragram, consisting of the four consonants Y-H-V-H (or if
you're German, as the leading Biblical scholars were in the 19th Century,
J-H-W-H), generally translated into English as "Lord" although "Eternal"
would be more accurate.  There is much colorful lore and mysticism about the
Tetragram, but for this discussion all you need to know is that
1)  the Name (that is, the Tetragram with the proper vowels) was only to be
uttered by the High Priest
2) the proper vowels have been lost
3) the Tetragram (in Hebrew, not Latin, letters) must be written only in holy
works, or more exactly, writing the Tetragram makes the parchment or paper
holy and therefore requiring special handling.

So what happened when Jews moved into the English-speaking world?  Some pious
Jews felt that it was wrong to write the English name of the Deity, and so a
custom grew up among SOME Jews to write "G-d" instead of "God".  (You will
not that I do not follow this tradition.)

Imagine the consternation of a Gentile who was an English teacher at a Jewish
day school.  He assigned some homework about Jonathan Edwards and to his
total confusion received papers talking about "Sinners in the Hands of an
Angry G-d".

Reconstructionism is more interested in Judaism as a community than in the
spiritual side of Judaism.  (Someone correct me here if I'm wrong).  Hence to
them the Deity is more of a Process than a Being, or something like that.

The spelling "Pr-cess" is therefore a satirical in-joke.

     - Jim Landau

P.S.  "Bethany" is Hebrew for "my house"


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 01:22:23 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:22:23 -0400
Subject: OED appeals list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0206201812230.19150-100000@larry.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.212223.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:17 PM -0400 6/20/02, Bethany K. Dumas wrote:
>On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Jesse Sheidlower commented on the sense of
>"machinable."
>
>I have been wondering about the range of the -able adjectives. The state
>of TN sells a wildlife license plate whose slogan I find particularly
>obnoxious: Watchable Wildlife.
>
>I suppose that anything visible is "watchable." I also suppose that by
>"watchable" the state means something like "worth watching" or "beautiful
>to look at" - doesn't seem to work, to me.
>
>Bethany

Mebbe so, but "watch-worthy wildlife", despite its catchy
alliteration, sounds more as though it's limited to those beasts that
one might consider gifting with a portable timepiece, which
eliminates too many of the intended referents.  (All but maybe apes
and monkeys, and of course kangaroos and wallabies, who could sport a
pocket watch.)  A number of -able adjectives *have* lexicalized into
fossilized meanings or uses--"lovable" (not just 'capable of being
loved') for one, and of course "comfortable".  TN is just trying to
move the process along here.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 01:27:11 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:27:11 -0400
Subject: It's a good thing
In-Reply-To: <D9BA04198D5C154F901F45D28E4866B5012D41BD@phex01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.212711.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:30 PM -0400 6/20/02, Baker, John wrote:
>There's a subtle difference in emphases.  "It's a good thing!",
>meaning the alternative would be very bad, has been around for a
>long time, as Barry has already shown.  "X was a Good Thing" is in
>1066 and All That (which I'm currently reading to my 10-year-old
>daughter - not an obvious choice, but she seems to like it O.K.).
>Martha's by-word is "It's a _good_ thing."
>
>I don't know how you would go about antedating distinctions that are
>this subtle.
>
>John Baker
>
Well, I'm pretty sure the capitalized version of "(be a) Good Thing"
is from 1066&AT, so at least a case sensitive antedate would pick
that up.

larry


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Mon Jun 24 01:37:34 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:37:34 -0400
Subject: Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah (1922)
In-Reply-To: <18d.9a6ee2e.2a47cb67@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.213734.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 23 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

>P.S.  "Bethany" is Hebrew for "my house"

I have heard several translations. "Beth" is clearly house, though.

Bethany


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Mon Jun 24 01:49:12 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:49:12 -0400
Subject: wife beaters
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b93babb0ee13@[35.12.22.76]>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.214912.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 23 Jun 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

#Some of the best culturally and linguistically preserved Polish
#enclaves in America are in Texas (although that is no requirement for
#"Polish jokes" - psiakrew cholera!).

What's "psiakrew cholera"?

-- Mark M.


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 01:54:43 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:54:43 -0400
Subject: wife beaters
In-Reply-To: <21.1fdef6be.2a47c623@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.215443.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James A. Landau wrote:

>Speaking of ethnic slurs, an American who had lived in Europe told me that
>the Dutch tell jokes about dumb Belgians who in turn tell jokes about stingy
>Dutch (the example she gave was "How can you tell you're in the Netherlands?
>By the toilet paper hanging up to dry on the clotheslines.")


When I studied in Israel in the early 70s, that one was told (in Hebrew)
about the Scots.

Alice


--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 03:24:46 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 23:24:46 -0400
Subject: "Windy City" in today's Wash. Post
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.232446.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the WASHINGTON POST, 23 June 2002 (Dow Jones database):

_You Go, Studs; Chicago Is Terkel's Kinda Town_
by Cindy Loose
(...)
   I also learn that the "Windy CIty" is actually the country's 14th windiest city, and the nickname had nothing to do with wind.  New York leaders coined the phrase in the 1890s after talkative civic leaders from Chicago who kept "blabbing about how great Chicago was in order to win a world's fair," a tour guide says.

(Awright, so you can add the Washington Post to the list of national newspapers to get this wrong and probably not correct it.  But what I wanna know is, why is a girl named Loose hanging out with a guy named Studs?--ed.)


From dave at WILTON.NET  Mon Jun 24 03:57:32 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:57:32 -0700
Subject: wife beaters
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020623215403.00a886e8@haskins.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.205732.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> >Speaking of ethnic slurs, an American who had lived in
> Europe told me that
> >the Dutch tell jokes about dumb Belgians who in turn tell
> jokes about stingy
> >Dutch (the example she gave was "How can you tell you're in
> the Netherlands?
> >By the toilet paper hanging up to dry on the clotheslines.")
>
>
> When I studied in Israel in the early 70s, that one was told
> (in Hebrew)
> about the Scots.

My sister-in-law, when visiting Poland in the late-70s, encountered the
"Soviet Soldier" joke. The jokes were identical to the Polish jokes told in
the US, only they were about Soviet soldiers instead of Poles.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Mon Jun 24 05:13:44 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:13:44 -0700
Subject: route : /rawt/ vs /ruwt/
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.221344.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I think, perhaps to demystify Don's (and others') uncertainty
about the "appropriate" pronunciation of <route>, that the word (and all
of its users) has been the victim of the same sort of prescriptive
pedagogical myth that restored the /t/ in <often> for many speakers.
As an obvious pre-Great Vowel Shift borrowing from French (MW10 gives 13th
c.), the original /uw/ underwent the regular shift to /aw/ (/aew/ in
Southern US varieties). More recently, some would-be "purists" fastened
upon the notion that this is properly a French word (perhaps influenced by
the more recently borrowed phrase <en route>, with /uw/, as Jim suggests),
and the Miss Fidditches of the world (Martin Joos' favorite straw woman)
leaped/leapt on it as another wonderful opportunity to civilize the
uncouth ruffians in their charge. [As usual, consistency be damned, or
else every other Middle English French borrowing would have to have its
original pronunciation restored.]
        My own native pronunciation of <route> is with /aew/, which I
learned early from living in the country with the address of Route 2, Box
58. Somewhere along the line I was exposed to the manufactured
prescriptivism that the "correct" pronuciation was with /uw/, "because it
is a French word", but I have always resolutely resisted this pernicious
effort at language engineering for myself, while respecting the choice of
those who accepted it.
        Many people I have known have had their phonological storage for
this lexical item tampered with, whether they remembered the source of the
influence or not, but often retained the original /aw/ in fixed phrases
such as "paper route", as Doug (I think it was) indicated [this very fact
says something significant about the locus of lexical storage in the
brain]. When the popular TV show "Route 66" was on, it amused me that many
of the viewers of this "/ruwt/ 66", as it was pronounced, lived on /rawt/
66.
        The several responses indicating variation or insecurity, even
from Northerners, points to this retro-shift having been a fairly recent
introduction. My guess is that it originated primarily in the Northeast,
which was (a) most influenced by the prestige of French, and (b) the most
educationally advanced in terms of the training of teachers in the 19th
century. However and wherever the myth originated -- undoubtedly
reinforced by British RP, pointing further to the Northeast -- my
hypothesis is that it was mediated through schoolteachers, and thus began
to acquire a class/register [DInIs] tinge as well as a regional one, but
probably more significantly in the 20th century, as enlightenment spread
to the hinterlands, beginning with the cities, an urban vs rural (also
linked to class/register) quality. Noah Webster preferred /rawt/,
according to his "blue-backed speller".
        The preservation of /aw/ in <router>, noted by Jim and Don, is a
further nice example of lexical separation, and lack of contamination from
the retro-shift. [NB: I wonder how many /t/-users in <often> use it in the
somewhat rarer comparative <oftener>? ] Jim Landau's evidence from his
daughter is a valuable indication pointing to the completion of the shift
within her age/area group, but I find that it is still in progress among
many of my students.
        It is difficult to trace pronunciation changes back through time,
for data prior to the Linguistic Atlas, but a good master's thesis or
article for American Speech awaits being written.

        Rudy


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Mon Jun 24 05:24:07 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:24:07 -0700
Subject: Router
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.222407.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My apologies to Dave Wilton for not crediting him with having been the
first to mention the /aw/ pronuciation of <router>.

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 06:06:01 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 02:06:01 EDT
Subject: Food in THE TASTE OF YIDDISH (1970)
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.020601.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE TASTE OF YIDDISH
by Lillian Mermin Feinsilver
South Brunswick, NJ:  Thomas Yoseloff
1970

   This is a book on Yiddish, not a book on food, but the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA
OF AMERICAN FOOD should take note.  OED cites from it 29 times.  It's OED
first cite for "schmatte" (this is not good).
    The book mainly is New York City in the 1950s and 1960s, but there are
some surprising things missing.  "Beygel" and "schmear" are here, but I
didn't see "bagel mit schmear."  The "whole schmear" and the "whole megillah"
are here, but not the "whole nine yards."  "Rugelach" is not here. "Jewish
penicillin" is not here.   "Go figure" is not here.  Go figure.

Pp. 54-55:  THE YIDDISH TAM...TASTE.
(Chapter and section heads--ed.)

Pg. 75:  Lit., Don't mix KASHE with BORCHT.

Pg. 149:  ...EPPES ESSEN...

Pg. 172:  FOOD AND DRINK.
(Section title.  The longest entries follow--ed.)
Pg. 175:  BEYGEL.
Pg. 178:  BLINTZES.
Pg. 179:  BORSHT.
Pg. 184:  FRESSER
Pg. 186:  GEFILTE FISH.
Pg. 190:  KISHKE.
Pg. 192:  KREPLACH...KUGEL.
Pg. 198:  SHTRUDEL.
Pg. 199:  TAM.
Pg. 201:  TSIMMES.
Pg. 202:  ZUP..

Pg. 224:  AFIKEYMEN.

Pp. 242-243:  KASHRES.

Pp. 260-261:  SEYDER.

Pg. 282:  LOKSH (derisive)  An Italian.  The word means "noodle"...

Pg. 299:  BAGEL.

Pg. 303:  "DAIRY" FOR "DAIRY PRODUCTS"..."DANISH" FOR "DANISH PASTRY".

Pg. 314:  HOW SWEET IT IS!...OY, IZ DOS ZIS!

Pg. 322:  KOSHER; NOT SO KOSHER.

Pg. 323:  MATZO, MATZOH.

Pg. 328:  NOSH.

Pg. 333:  SHMALTZ, SCHMATLZ, SCHMALZ, ETC.

Pg. 334:  "Everything that's happening in New York is in that play...the
whole schmear..."
(Review from February 1969--ed.)

Pg. 342:  THE APPLE DOESN'T FALL FAR FROM THE TREE....DER EPL FALT NIT VAYT
FUN BEYM.

Pg. 357:  A WHOLE MEGILLE...BIALYS...BLINTZKRIEG.

Pg. 358:  BORSHT BELT...BORSHT CIRCUIT.

Pg. 359:  CHEAP LIKE BORSHT.

Pg. 360:  "FA'MISHT" FOR "FAMISHED"...Al Capp used this pun in _Li'l Abner_:
"Breeng Food; I am Fameeshed."

Pg. 365:  NOT TO KNOW BORSHT.

Pg. 366:  OH, BORSHT!

(Look for this used book on Bookfinder.com or other places and buy it!--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 08:08:29 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 04:08:29 EDT
Subject: Pain in the neck,
 Nu (1896); Tzatzkes (1898); Madame Klesmer (1917)
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.040829.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Abraham Cahan was a founder of the JEWISH DAILY FORWARD. A check of his
name shows only one OED hit, for "tea."  One!  However, the revised OED (not
linked to the general search engine--hey, I didn't do this computer program)
shows that Cahan's THE RISE OF DAVID LEVINSKY (1917) is the first citation
for "matzo ball."
   Back in my unsuccessful playwriting days (when I made nothing at all, or
about $100 less than I've made from etymology the past ten years), I met
Isaiah Sheffer (director of Symphony Space).  At that time, Sheffer was doing
an Off-Broadway musical titled THE RISE OF DAVID LEVINSKY, based on the book.
   Cahan perhaps wanted to sell LEVINSKY to a general audience; the Yiddish
we expect to see shows up, for example, as "woe is me."  Oi vay!  But the
book is still worth reading.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
YEKL: A TALE OF THE NEW YORK GHETTO
by Abraham Cahan
New York: D. Appleton and Company

Pg. 3:  Like here, in New York, where the Jews are a _lot_ of _greenhornsh_
and can not speak a word of English.

Pg. 17:  ...the two being what is called in sweat-shop parlance,
"_chance-mentshen_," i. e., favorites.

Pg. 34:  Such _shnoozes_, they can hardly set a foot well, and yet they are
free, while I am a married man.

Pg. 38:  You knaw I don' like no monkey beeshnesh.

Pg. 40:  It don' cut a figger, shee?

Pg. 53:  During the three years since he had set foot on the soil, where a
"shister* becomes a mister and a mister a shister," he had lived so much more
than three years--so much more.
*Yiddish for shoemaker.

Pg. 65:  Sanctification again, and sit by his side, opposite to mother, and
receive from her hand a plate of reeking _tzimess_,* as of yore!
*A kind of dessert made of carrots or turnips.
(OED has it from 1892--ed.)

Pg. 73:  "_Oi_ a lamentation upon me!"

Pg. 75:  "You look like a _poritz_,"* she said shyly.
*Yiddish for nobleman.

Pg. 78:  "_Oi_ woe is me!"

Pg. 80:  "Where do you eat your _varimess_?"*
   "Don't say varimess," he corrected her complaisantly; "here it is called
_dinner_."
   "_Dinner_?"**  And what if one becomes fatter?"
*Yiddish for dinner.
**Yiddish for thinner.

Pg. 85:  "Quite a _panenke_!"*
*A young noblewoman.

Pg. 95:  ...she will _oyshgreen_* herself...
*A verb coined from the Yiddish _oys_, out, and the English _green_, and
signifying to cease being green.

Pg. 97:  ..._borshtch_*...
*A sour soup of cabbage and beets.

Pg. 101:  ..._shadchen_*...
*A matrimonial agent.

Pg. 119:  "Here a husband must remember--"_ladas foist_"--but then you do not
even know what that means!"
(OED has only one hit for "ladies first"?--ed.)

Pg. 127:  "Not unless your wife drags along with you and never lets go of
your skirts," she said sneeringly, adding the declaration that Jake's
"bluffs" gave her a "reg'ula' pain in de neck."
(OED has 1924 for "pain in the neck"?  Not under "neck" in RHHDAS?--ed.)

Pg. 139:  _Nu, sir_!"
(OED has 1892, then 1945 for "nu"--ed.)

Pg. 149:  "What punishment is due to me, then, if I can not stand a _shnooza_
like her?  It is _nu ushed_; I can not live with her, even if she stand one
foot on heaven and one on earth."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
THE IMPORTED BRIDEGROOM
AND OTHER STORIES OF THE NEW YORK GHETTO
by Abraham Cahan
Boston: Houghton, Mifflin and Company
1898

Pg. 8:  "Show a _treif_* gendarme a _kosher_** coin, and he will be shivering
with ague."
*Food not prepared according to the laws of Moses; impure.
**The opposite of _treif_.

Pg. 13:  He recognized the plushy clover knobs in the vast array of placid
magnificence, and the dandelions and the golden buttercups, although his poor
mother-tongue could not afford a special name for each flower, and he now
addressed them collectively as _tzatzkes_--a word he had not used for
thirty-five years.

Pg. 39:  ..._mazol-tovs_ (congratulations)...

Pg. 55:  Is she going to be a _rabbitzen_ (a rabbi's wife)?
(No OED entry for this word--ed.)

Pg. 68:  "The boy is a _gaon_,"* the corpulent old man remarked humbly.
"What a head!  What a memory, what a _chariff_!"**
   "Yes, and what a _bokki_!"***
*A genius.
**A man of erudition.
***Acute intellect.

Pg. 95:  "He is an _appikoros_."*
*Epicurean; atheist.

Pg. 100:  "Have you been to the Mariv service?" Shaya intervened.
(The revised OED has only 1892, then 1904 for "Maariv"?--ed.)

Pg. 123:  Rouvke's hair is now entirely free from the pair of sidelocks, or
_peieths_, which dangled over his ears when he first set foot on American
soil...

Pg. 124:  But "bishness is bishness," as Rouvke would put it.

Pg. 145:  _Choson_ is a term applied to a Jewish young man, embracing the
period from the time he is placed on the matrimonial market down to the
termination of the nuptial festivities.  There is all the difference in the
world between a choson and a common unmarried mortal of the male sex, who is
left to the bare designation of _bocher_...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
THE RISE OF DAVID LEVINSKY
by Abraham Cahan
1917
(I don't know the publisher.  This is a 1969 reprint by Peter Smith--ed.)

Pg. 23:  ...calling him something the equivalent to "Sissy."

Pg. 160:  ...Madame Klesmer...
(A character named after the word "klezmer."  Look it up in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 181:  "I don't care what you say, but of what use is a good heart unless
he has some jinglers* to go with it?"
*Coin, money.
(RHHDAS has 1906 from Australia, then 1933--ed.)

Pg. 233:  We were eating cold sorrel soup, prepared in the old Ghetto way,
with cream, bits of boiled egg, cucumber, and scallions.

Pg. 238:  "Don't bite off more than you can chew, Levinsky," he would tell
me.

Pg. 241:  One of his ways of being tremendously American was to snap his
fingers ferociously and to say, "I don't care a continental!" or, "One, two,
three, and there you are!"  The latter exclamation he would be continually
murmuring to himself when he was absorbed in pinochle.

Pg. 271:  "A bunch of good-for-nothings, too lazy to work, will stir up
trouble, and there you are."
(See prior ADS-L posting on Professor Irwin Corey's alleged coinage of "And
there you are!"--ed.)

Pg. 298:  "But what's up?"
(WHAZZUP?--ed.)

Pg. 247:  I looked upon poor people with more contempt than ever.  I still
called them "misfits," in a Darwinian sense.
("Misfits" is a nice cite here.  Levinsky's business is the clothing trade.
The revised OED does not cite this work--ed.)

Pg. 404:  In addition to families who were there for the whole season--that
is,k from the Fourth of July to the first Monday in October--the hotel
contained a considerable number of single young people, of both
sexes--salesmen, stenographers, bookkeepers, librarians--who came for a
fortnight's vacation.  These were known as "two-weekers."
(The reference is to the Catskills, not then called the "Borsht
Circuit"--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Jun 24 11:29:13 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 07:29:13 -0400
Subject: Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah (1922)
In-Reply-To: <18d.9a6ee2e.2a47cb67@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.072913.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... the Deity is more of a Process .... The spelling "Pr-cess" is
>therefore a satirical in-joke.

And here I'd been reading it "Princess"!

-- Doug Wilson


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Jun 24 11:40:37 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 07:40:37 -0400
Subject: wife beaters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206232148550.2828439-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.074037.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Literally "dog's blood cholera"; a (mild) oath; an elaboration of
"cholera," itself a mild oath. (Also "cholera jasna" - 'clear
cholera.')

Prestonski




>On Sun, 23 Jun 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>#Some of the best culturally and linguistically preserved Polish
>#enclaves in America are in Texas (although that is no requirement for
>#"Polish jokes" - psiakrew cholera!).
>
>What's "psiakrew cholera"?
>
>-- Mark M.

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Jun 24 11:45:15 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 07:45:15 -0400
Subject: Real Polish jokes
In-Reply-To: <000701c21b33$453357f0$0300a8c0@HPN5290>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.074515.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Although there were stupid Russian jokes at that time, stupid police
jokes were much more plentiful.

A policeman goes to a bookstore; an amazed clerk asks if he can help.
The policeman says he's tired of being made fun of for his stupidity
and understands that reading will improve his mind. What would the
clerk suggest? The clerk opines that some light reading would be a
good place to start. The policeman responds that that is not
necessary; he has his car right out front.

Prestonski



>  > >Speaking of ethnic slurs, an American who had lived in
>>  Europe told me that
>>  >the Dutch tell jokes about dumb Belgians who in turn tell
>>  jokes about stingy
>>  >Dutch (the example she gave was "How can you tell you're in
>>  the Netherlands?
>>  >By the toilet paper hanging up to dry on the clotheslines.")
>>
>>
>>  When I studied in Israel in the early 70s, that one was told
>>  (in Hebrew)
>>  about the Scots.
>
>My sister-in-law, when visiting Poland in the late-70s, encountered the
>"Soviet Soldier" joke. The jokes were identical to the Polish jokes told in
>the US, only they were about Soviet soldiers instead of Poles.

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Mon Jun 24 12:06:41 2002
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:06:41 -0400
Subject: targets of ethnic jokes
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.080641.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Italian jokes of my downstate NY youth were Polish jokes upstate; when I
came to Ohio they became WV jokes and on my Fulbright to Germany they
transmuted into Fries jokes.  Friesland (Frisia) is the narrow coastal strip
of the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark that borders the North Sea. In
Toulouse on a subsequent exchange I was told the French looked down on the
Belgians but I heard no jokes at their expense.

Ex:   Q: "How do you tell the bride at a [insert ethnic group here] wedding?
A: She's the one with the clean T-shirt."
_________________________________
"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
--Albert Einstein


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Jun 24 12:42:32 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:42:32 -0400
Subject: targets of ethnic jokes
In-Reply-To: <000a01c21b77$9af1ef00$c50103d8@dbergdah1>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.084232.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>T-shirts are too ubiquitous. I much prefer

Q. How do you tell the bride at a [insert group] wedding?

A: She's the one in a sequined bowling shirt.

dInIs



>The Italian jokes of my downstate NY youth were Polish jokes upstate; when I
>came to Ohio they became WV jokes and on my Fulbright to Germany they
>transmuted into Fries jokes.  Friesland (Frisia) is the narrow coastal strip
>of the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark that borders the North Sea. In
>Toulouse on a subsequent exchange I was told the French looked down on the
>Belgians but I heard no jokes at their expense.
>
>Ex:   Q: "How do you tell the bride at a [insert ethnic group here] wedding?
>A: She's the one with the clean T-shirt."
>_________________________________
>"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
>--Albert Einstein

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 24 12:43:36 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 05:43:36 -0700
Subject: "Watchable wildlife"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0206211653410.21157-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.054336.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've taken the phrase to mean wildlife that is not
intended for wildlife harvest, that is - hunting.


--- "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU>
wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, George Thompson wrote:
>
> >"Watchable wildlife" means "wildlife available for
> watching"
> >or "accesible to wildlife watchers".  One guidebook
> company (Falcon, of
>
> Means that to whom? The license plates have photos
> of birds on them. It
> would never have occurred to me that the legislature
> meant "accessible to
> wildlife watchers."
>
> Bethany


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Jun 24 14:25:31 2002
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:25:31 -0400
Subject: "Watchable wildlife" & ethnic jokes
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.102531.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Actually, no, I can't imagine myself ever saying "let's go to Tennessee
this summer; I see from their license plates that there is a lot of
watchable wildlife there."  In fact, I think I have only come upon the
word as the series title of the guidebooks I mentioned in my original
post.

Also, with reference to the butts of ethnic jokes: a few years ago I
bought a book called "Newfie Jokes", based on the stupidity of people
from Newfoundland.  Presumably this stereotype is widespread in the
rest of Canada?  Or else the compiler & publisher would not have used
this hook to hang these traditional ethnic slurs on.  Bibliographic
data and a few sample jokes upon request.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU>
Date: Friday, June 21, 2002 9:44 pm
Subject: Re: "Watchable wildlife"

> On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, George Thompson wrote:
>
> >One never knows what a legislature intends.  But among wildlife-
> >voyeurs, of which I am one, I think the phrase is taken to mean that
> >whereas most wildlife, other than birds, is elusive and seldom seen,
> >there are some spots where the chances of seeing an interesting
> critter>is better than usual.  I recall being referred to the town
> dump in
>
> Interesting. Don't go back into hiding yet, please. Do wildlife
> voyeursactually use the word "watchable" that way - or do you just
> accept that
> others do? I.e., would you say that such-a-such a place has lots of
> "watchable wildlife"?
>
> Bethany
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 03:09:35 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 23:09:35 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <20020621165535.GA10453@panix.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.230935.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:55 PM -0400 6/21/02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 12:49:41PM -0400, Steve Kl. wrote:
>>  On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
>>
>>  > "American and British dictionaries have no clear notion of the female
>>  > genitals." Visit: www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index/htm. (Hint: click
>>  > "Trademark Affidavits").
>>
>>  I couldn't access this page.
>>
>>  Is the URL right?
>
>No, it should end in "index.htm"
>                            ^
>
Very nice treatments.  I've actually written papers on both lexical
clones (Tom's page 3) and un-nouns (his page 4), and heartily endorse
the gist of his presentations here, although I've argued that each of
the constructions is somewhat more complex that what Tom is able to
provide in his affidavits (I'd better, since I've devoted a whole lot
more ink/electrons to these constructions in my format than Tom could
do in his).  In particular, I've divided (in "Un-Covering the
Un-Word", published in the Japanese journal Sophia Linguistica 49
(2002): 1-64) the class of un-nouns into two groups, the A (for
"Almost")-class un-noun, in which an unX is almost (but not quite) a
member of the category X, as in "un-cola" or "un-petroleum lip jelly"
(my cite is not quite the same as Tom's but close--

"Un-Petroleum(TM) Lip Jelly(TM)
Un-Chap? your lips"
(Label on product manufactured by Autumn Harp, Bristol, Vermont)

--and I wonder whether this is indeed the company to which Tom refers
in his affidavit), vs. the B (for "Barely")-class un-noun, in which
an unY is indeed a member of the category Y, but not a prototype
member (in Rosch's sense), i.e. not a Y Y.  There are some nice
examples that oppose a B-class un-noun with a lexical clone, as in:

Undesign:  Moving Away from Aggressive D?cor
(NYT headline, 2 June 1988, C6)
"Nothing is 'design designed'.  Nothing has a signature."
-New York architect Diana Agrest

or, for that matter, an anti-clone like the "un-diet diet".

--larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 03:28:59 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 23:28:59 -0400
Subject: Fronter and Backer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0206212117350.21773-100000@bast.u.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.232859.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:25 PM -0700 6/21/02, Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>Matthew,
>
>         I'd certainly say this in class, right along with higher and
>lower, but some intuition tells me I probably wouldn't write it, resorting
>instead to the awkward locution "further front" and "further back". I
>certainly could not bring myself to use "more front" or "more back". Larry
>will probably tell us that "front" and "back" are not gradable per se. It
>is interesting that one dimension would be gradadable and another not.
>Thanks for bringing this to our attention (it's always interesting how
>out-of-awareness so much of language is, even for linguists).
>
>         Rudy
>
>P.S. I do use (in class) Haj Ross' famous "squish" comparisons: some words
>are nounier and other words are verbier.

and some adjectives are gradabler than others

In principle, "front" and "back" SHOULD be gradable for vowels, but
as you say they don't seem to be--"How front/back was that /a/?"
sounds as weird as the analytic and synthetic comparatives above.  I
share Rudy's judgments and usage patterns, I think.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 04:35:17 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 00:35:17 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <CPEBLEOMIFBBBHHMHKJGGEGECAAA.Rick@mouseherder.com>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.003517.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:02 PM -0400 6/23/02, Rick H Kennerly wrote:
>|o| e.g., saying "root." When I worked in the Post Office in Queens
>|o| in the 1970s,
>|o| on the other hand, the mail carriers universally referred to
>|o| their delivery
>|o| routes as "routs."
>
>I'd never considered this but in my computer repair days, I had a rout--a
>set of regular stops.  But if on vacation, I would plot a root on the
>highway map, but I'd stop enrout to sleep.

For me, these would be "rout", "root", but "enroot" rather than "enrout"

larry (<new york and elsewhere)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 04:35:07 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 00:35:07 -0400
Subject: Jack Buck's "That's a winner!"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020623164135.00a880a0@haskins.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.003507.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:43 PM -0400 6/23/02, Alice Faber wrote:
>Laurence Horn wrote:
>>At 11:25 AM -0500 6/19/02, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
>>>
>>>I grew up in St. Louis with Jack Buck. He had the most unmistakable voice
>>>in broadcasting and radio will be less without him.
>>>[quoting some obituary:]
>>>  >From the 1985 World Series he is often remembered for the "Go Crazy Folks,
>>>Go Crazy!" jubilant cry at the game and series winning home run.
>>Can anyone clarify this reference for me?  First of all, it was
>>Kansas City that won that series (and the Cardinals that lost), and I
>>suspect Buck was enough of a homer [in the 'subjective', not
>>'four-bagger' sense] not to have exulted quite that jubilantly at the
>>result.  Second, the series-deciding 7th game was something like 9-0
>>(Saberhagen pitching the shutout), so there was no 'game and series
>>winning home run'.  Perhaps the playoffs (NLCS) preceding the series,
>>when the Cards beat the Dodgers on Jack Clark's homer, IIRC?
>
>By the third time that I saw the SportsCenter retrospective on Jack Buck, I
>finally figured out that this call was from the end of game 6 of that
>series. Ozzie's homer capped a come-from behind rally and forced a game 7.
>I suppose I *could* check retrosheet, but I *should* weed my veggie garden.
>
No, you're quite likely right.  Ozzie's blow was much more unexpected
and hence jubilacient, although less ultimately decisive, than
Clark's homer, which as I recall was foreordained when Lasorda didn't
have Niedenfuhr walk him intentionally.  Anyway, it wasn't from the
World Series.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 04:57:45 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 00:57:45 -0400
Subject: OED appeals-give him one
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20020621125112.03d32950@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.005745.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:43 PM -0400 6/21/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>
>BTW, "drifter" reminds me of "Grifter."  I never saw that movie; what the
>heck is a grifter?
>
A con man (or woman).  The movie you mention (The Grifters) is pretty
good, but depressing, as I recall--Anjelica Huston, Annette Bening,
and (in an atypical role) John Cusack, from the early '90's, based on
a story by Jim Thompson.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 14:54:47 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:54:47 -0400
Subject: Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah (1922)
In-Reply-To: <18d.9a6ee2e.2a47cb67@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.105447.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:09 PM -0400 6/23/02, James A. Landau wrote:
>In a message dated 06/23/2002 8:29:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes:
>
>>  >>  Q:  How do Reconstructionists spell the name of the Deity?   Pr-cess.
>>   >>  A:  Pr-cess.
>>
>>   I'm glad someone got it. I didn't. Why is the word repeated? And how is it
>>   pronounced?
>>
>
>Repeating the word was a typo.

Indeed; my bad.  And the rest of Jim's exegesis is exactly correct.

>
>As for "how it is proinounced?", the proper question is whether it is
>pronounced.
>
>The Old Testament generally uses one of two names for the Deity.  One is
>"Elohim"(frequently shortened to "El"), usually translated as "God".  The
>other is the Tetragram, consisting of the four consonants Y-H-V-H (or if
>you're German, as the leading Biblical scholars were in the 19th Century,
>J-H-W-H), generally translated into English as "Lord" although "Eternal"
>would be more accurate.  There is much colorful lore and mysticism about the
>Tetragram, but for this discussion all you need to know is that
>1)  the Name (that is, the Tetragram with the proper vowels) was only to be
>uttered by the High Priest
>2) the proper vowels have been lost
>3) the Tetragram (in Hebrew, not Latin, letters) must be written only in holy
>works, or more exactly, writing the Tetragram makes the parchment or paper
>holy and therefore requiring special handling.
>
>So what happened when Jews moved into the English-speaking world?  Some pious
>Jews felt that it was wrong to write the English name of the Deity, and so a
>custom grew up among SOME Jews to write "G-d" instead of "God".  (You will
>not that I do not follow this tradition.)

There's also a hot and ongoing dispute about whether it's OK for the
name to appear on a computer screen, given the temporary nature of
this electronic appearance.

>
>Imagine the consternation of a Gentile who was an English teacher at a Jewish
>day school.  He assigned some homework about Jonathan Edwards and to his
>total confusion received papers talking about "Sinners in the Hands of an
>Angry G-d".
>
>Reconstructionism is more interested in Judaism as a community than in the
>spiritual side of Judaism.  (Someone correct me here if I'm wrong).  Hence to
>them the Deity is more of a Process than a Being, or something like that.
>
>The spelling "Pr-cess" is therefore a satirical in-joke.
>
>      - Jim Landau
>
>P.S.  "Bethany" is Hebrew for "my house"


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 24 15:03:23 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:03:23 -0400
Subject: "Watchable wildlife" & ethnic jokes
In-Reply-To: <28e862428e83e6.28e83e628e8624@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.110323.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:25 AM -0400 6/24/02, George Thompson wrote:
>Actually, no, I can't imagine myself ever saying "let's go to Tennessee
>this summer; I see from their license plates that there is a lot of
>watchable wildlife there."  In fact, I think I have only come upon the
>word as the series title of the guidebooks I mentioned in my original
>post.
>
>Also, with reference to the butts of ethnic jokes: a few years ago I
>bought a book called "Newfie Jokes", based on the stupidity of people
>from Newfoundland.  Presumably this stereotype is widespread in the
>rest of Canada?  Or else the compiler & publisher would not have used
>this hook to hang these traditional ethnic slurs on.  Bibliographic
>data and a few sample jokes upon request.
>
Definitely.  I've heard a few from Torontonians, and as I understand
it's a general stereotype at least among eastern Canadians.

larry


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Jun 24 16:16:50 2002
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:16:50 -0400
Subject: Asser Levy (-1681), NYC's first kosher butcher
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.121650.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Isaac Stokes' Iconography of Manhattan Island only cites two
contemporary sources regarding Asser Levy's activity as a butcher.  The
Iconography was compiled more that 80 years ago, but I don't suppose
that any more is likely to have been found.

In 1660, Levy and 5 others asked to be "sworn butchers", a licensed and
regulated monopoly, and were accepted.  Part 4 of their oath fixed the
prices for their services, and specified that they might charge $1 for
killing a hog.  "Then Asser Levy requests to be excused from killing
hogs, as his religion does not allow him to do it, which was granted
him.  And they accordingly took the . . . Oath except Asser aforesaid,
who took the oath, which the Jews are accustomed to take."  Berthold
Fernow, The Records of New Amsterdam, vol. 7, 1898, pp. 258-59.

In January, 1677/78, Ashur Levy asked permission to build a slaughter
house, "and to take in Garret Janson Rose to be Partner with him
therein, and that all persons should have Liberty to kill & hang theire
Meat there, paying for the same as formerly in other places."  Minutes
of the Common Council of the City of New York, 1675-1766, 1905, vol. 1,
pp. 67-68.

So the records don't contain the word "kosher" or any equivalent.  I'm
not sure whether NY had a sufficiently large Jewish population in the
1660s to support an exclusively kosher butcher, and the records don't
indicate that Levy was exempt from being required to butcher beef in
the fashion preferred by the goyim.  I do not see his partner Rose, aka
Roos, in Malcolm Stern's First American Jewish Families: 600
genealogies, 3rd ed., 1991, so either he wasn't Jewish or didn't leave
a family.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Date: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 4:19 am
Subject: Asser Levy (-1681), NYC's first kosher butcher

> ASSER LEVY (-1681), FIRST KOSHER BUTCHER
>
>   Again, I haven't seen the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN
> FOOD's entry on
> "kosher."  I could be duplicating what's already there--which I
> suppose is
> good.
>   Various web sites list New York's (New Amsterdam's) Asser Levy as
> America's first kosher butcher.  He opened up shop November 15,
> 1660, or
> October 15, 1660, or in 1655 (these web sites vary).
>   What evidence is there of this, when our first record for the word
> "kosher" is 200 years later?
>   Hot dog, I've got to solve this.  My etymology serves a higher
> authority.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> BAT MITZVAH
>
>   I'll look in the publications:
>
> AMERICAN HEBREW
> B'NAI B'RITH MAGAZINE
> THE YOUNG JUDAEAN
> NEWS LETTER (National Council of Jewish Women, 1933-1939)
> COUNCIL WOMAN (1940-1978)
> DER IDISHER FROYEN ZSHURNAL (Jewish Women's Home Journal, 1922-1923)
>
>   Bat Mitzvah and bagels is all I ask.  Plus latkes and rugelach.
>


From Ittaob at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 16:32:36 2002
From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:32:36 EDT
Subject: route
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.123236.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yesterday on NPR, I heard House speaker Dennis Hastert (from Illinois) say
that Amtrak could probably cut some of its money-losing routes -- pronounced
"routs".

Steve Boatti


From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET  Mon Jun 24 16:13:27 2002
From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:13:27 -0400
Subject: targets of ethnic jokes
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.121327.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had a friend in law school in the early 70s who handled these kinds of
jokes admirably. He would say, "How do you tell the bride at an ethnic
wedding?" The joke was still funny, perhaps because the listener filled in
his or her own "ethnic".

Bob


----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis R. Preston <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: targets of ethnic jokes


> >T-shirts are too ubiquitous. I much prefer
>
> Q. How do you tell the bride at a [insert group] wedding?
>
> A: She's the one in a sequined bowling shirt.
>
> dInIs


From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET  Mon Jun 24 16:32:05 2002
From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:32:05 -0400
Subject: targets of ethnic jokes
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.123205.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had a friend in law school in the early 70s who neatly avoided aiming his
jokes at any particular group by saying, "How do you tell the bride at an
ethnic wedding? The jokes were funny, I suspect, because the listener filled
in his or her own "ethnic".

Bob


> >The Italian jokes of my downstate NY youth were Polish jokes upstate;
when I
> >came to Ohio they became WV jokes and on my Fulbright to Germany they
> >transmuted into Fries jokes.  Friesland (Frisia) is the narrow coastal
strip
> >of the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark that borders the North Sea. In
> >Toulouse on a subsequent exchange I was told the French looked down on
the
> >Belgians but I heard no jokes at their expense.
> >
> >Ex:   Q: "How do you tell the bride at a [insert ethnic group here]
wedding?
> >A: She's the one with the clean T-shirt."
> >_________________________________
> >"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
> >--Albert Einstein
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> 740 Wells Hall A
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
> Office - (517) 353-0740
> Fax - (517) 432-2736
>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 17:08:40 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:08:40 EDT
Subject: Judith Kaplan's Bat Mitzvah (1922)
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.130840.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/24/2002 10:54:16 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

<< >Reconstructionism is more interested in Judaism as a community than in the
>spiritual side of Judaism.  (Someone correct me here if I'm wrong).  Hence to
>them the Deity is more of a Process than a Being, or something like that.
>
>The spelling "Pr-cess" is therefore a satirical in-joke. >>

Oh, g-lly, I thought this was referring to the stereotypical "Jewish American
Pr-nc-ss," the One who REALLY reigns over heaven and earth.


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Jun 24 17:15:57 2002
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:15:57 -0400
Subject: route
In-Reply-To: <c6.d7beabb.2a48a3a4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.131557.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't know what part of Illinois Hastert is from, but 'rout' was pretty
much standard in Minnesota when I grew up (and still is, I believe).  I've
picked up 'root' (for both route and plant root) as a "learned"
pronunciation as I've moved south and east (St. Louis to Bloomington to
Athens)--partly register, partly a misplaced sense of "class," I suspect.

At 12:32 PM 6/24/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Yesterday on NPR, I heard House speaker Dennis Hastert (from Illinois) say
>that Amtrak could probably cut some of its money-losing routes -- pronounced
>"routs".
>
>Steve Boatti


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Jun 24 18:22:18 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:22:18 -0500
Subject: Fronter and Backer
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.132218.0500.>

Actually, 'how front/back was that /a/?' sounds pretty ok to me.

Laurence Horn wrote:

> In principle, "front" and "back" SHOULD be gradable for vowels, but
> as you say they don't seem to be--"How front/back was that /a/?"
> sounds as weird as the analytic and synthetic comparatives above.  I
> share Rudy's judgments and usage patterns, I think.
>
> larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 18:39:23 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:39:23 EDT
Subject: Nosh, Nasher (1914); Hamantaschen (1916)
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.143923.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NOSH, NASHER (continued)

   From "The Meal Joseph Lost" by Abraham Burstein in THE YOUNG JUDAEAN, February 1914, pg. 14, col. 2:

   But what was hard to bear was the thought that even when he wanted to disobey his father and _nosh_ something before going from the house, something happened to prevent it.

(Continued on Page 15, col. 1--ed.)

   Thus did Joseph, the real "nasher" escape all blame.

--------------------------------------------------------
HAMANTASCHEN

   Search the online OED for "hamant*" and there is no hit.  Amazing.
   Merriam-Webster has 1927 for "hamantaschen."
   From THE YOUNG JUDAEAN, March 1916, pg. 195, col. 1:

   "There'll be lots of Hamantaschen and Kreppchen and plum-Tzimmes," Pincus informed him.

   From THE YOUNG JUDAEAN, March 1917, pg. 191, col. 1:

   Nowadays, children use "Haman-drehers," rattles, and whistles to express their approval of the fate meted out to Haman and his friends.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 18:57:01 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:57:01 EDT
Subject: "Watchable wildlife" & ethnic jokes
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.145701.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/24/2002 10:25:53 AM, george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes:

<< a few years ago I
bought a book called "Newfie Jokes", based on the stupidity of people
from Newfoundland.  Presumably this stereotype is widespread in the
rest of Canada?   >>

Ruth King has done some work on the use of the term NEWFIE as a regional
slur. she claims that people are generally highly offended by the term.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 19:22:09 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:22:09 -0400
Subject: Dreidle (1920)
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.152209.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"I feel like a spinning top or a dreidel.  The spinning don't stop when you leave the cradle.  You can't slow down."
--Don McLean, "Dreidel"
(the album after "American Pie")

   OED has 1934 for "dreidel."  Merriam-Webster has 1926.  I had posted something a day or two ago that was very much like "dreidel."
   THE YOUNG JUDAEAN here in the NYPL's Jewish division has a few months missing in 1918 and 1919.  The publication became in 1912 or 1913.
   From THE YOUNG JUDAEAN, November-December 1920, pg. 86, col. 1:

   Little David was an expert _dreidle_ player and he felt sure that he could win his brothers' money from them. (...)
   Z-z-z-z ... round and round went the _dreidle_.
(...)(Col. 2--ed.)
   Whiz...round went the _dreidle_.  The _dreidle_ was evidently telling wonderful secrets in a mysterious language.  Oh, how that _dreidle_ hated to fall and give up its precious secret, but since the creation  of the world it is preordained that _driedlach_ must fall, and finally the _dreidle_ understood, that it was far more comfortable to lie on your back than to run on one leg.

(WHERE ARE MY 1920 "LATKES"???--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 24 19:34:42 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:34:42 -0400
Subject: Kevutzah (1920)
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.153442.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED has 1921 for "kvutza."  See prior posts on "kibbutz" and "moshav."
   From the same "dreidel" edition of THE YOUNG JUDAEAN, November-December 1920, pg. 80, col. 1:

   We drove on a little way to the co-operative colony of Merhaviah.  This colony was the first co-operative, or _Kevutzah_, in Palestine; it was settled in 1913.

(From "Miriam's Journal, by Jessie E.Sampler."  The date given for this journal is Nov. 23, 1919, or Rosh Hodesh Kislev, 5680...The NYPL's Jewish Division has these convenient computers that you don't have to sign up for..."Became" should be "began" in that last post--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 25 01:54:07 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 21:54:07 EDT
Subject: SONGS FROM THE GHETTO glossary, part one (1900)
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.215407.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SONGS FROM THE GHETTO
by Morris Rosenfeld
with prose translation, glossary, and introduction
by Leo Wiener, instructor in the Slavic Languages at Harvard University
New and Enlarged Edition
Boston:  Small, Maynard and Company
1900
1898, Copeland and Day
1899, Small, Maynard and Company

   I guess I have enough energy to type this out before I go to Alaska.  It's
the best glossary I've seen for Yiddish-English, up to 1900.  Maven, nu, oi,
kosher, klezmer--all here!  Food items--not here!  Sorry!
   OED has _zero_ citations from this book.  Not even one.
   The old German type face is very difficult to read.  The "f" and "s" and
"l" and "z" all can't be distinguished.  Expect tons of mistakes.  I
apologize in advance.


Pg. 147:
      _GLOSSARY_
ABBREVIATIONS
E.--English.
F.--French
G.--German
H.--Hebrew
Lat.--Latin.
P.--Polish
R.--Russian
Sl.--Slavic

Abstellen sich, stop.  G.
absunsen, dip.  G.
achuz, besides.  H.
afile, even.  H.
alls, continually.  G.
antlossen, run away.  G
antschlafen, fallen sleep.  G.
antschwiegen, grown silent.  G.
anweren, lose.  G.
Apreter, operator in sweatshop.  E.
aren, care; es art mich nit, I do not care.  G.
Arowes, osier twigs.  H.
arum, around.  G.
arumwaschen, wash (the body).  G.
arunter, down.  G.
Arure, wench.  H.
as, that.  G.
asa, such a.  G.
aso, so.  G.
assach, much.  H.
auschappen sich, be startled, awaken.  Sl.
ausgeirudent, dried up.  G.
ausprechen sich, be scattered.  G.
ausweben, evaporate.  G.
aweg, away, past.  G.
azund, now.  G.
azunder, now.  G.

Baensen, long for.  G.
Bal-cholem, genius of dreams.  H.
Bal-haguf, male person.  H.
Bal-ssie, ram's horn blower.  H.
Basmalte, princess.  H.
bechinom, in vain.  H.
behalten, hidden.  G.
belangen, belong.  G.
benschen, bless.  F.
Ben-mowes, child of death.  H.
Berieschaft, heroism.  H.
bescheidt, certain.  G.
beschonsen, presented with.  G.
bespreit, covered.  G.
Bessalmen, cemetery.  H.
Bessolem, cemetery.  H.
beweisen sich, appear.  G.
(Pg. 148--ed.)
bidne, poor.  P.
bistre, quick.  R.
Blas, breath.  G.
blondzen, wander about.  P.
Boeser, anger.  G.
Bore, Creator.  H.
Boz, boss.  E.
botel, empty.  H.
Breg, shore.  Sl.
breitlich, comfortably.  G.
Bruim, creatures.  H.
Bsomim, spices.  H.
Busche, shame.  H.

Chadoschim, months.  H.
Chajoles, armies.  H.
Chalomes, dreams.  H.
chaufenen. flatter.  H.
Chanute, the feast of Hanuccah.  H.
chappen, seize.  Sl.
chappen sich, rush at.  Sl.
Chapper, kidnapper.  Sl.
Chasen, cantor in synagogue.  H.
Chawer, comrade.  H.
Chaweerim, comrades.
Cheeder, elementary school.  H.
Cheelef, share.  H.
Cheen, grace.  H.
cheenewdig, gracious.  H.
Cheesches, zest.  H.
Chet, sin.  H.
Chide, riddle.  H.
Chidesch, marvel.  H.
Chises, life.  H.
Chisrones, faults.  H.
chlipen, sob.  R.
Cholem, dream.  H.
cholemdig, dreamy.  H.
chorew, destroyed.  H.
Chozen, bridegroom.  H.
Chozen-sale, bridegroom and bride.  H.
chotsch, although, at least.  Sl.
Chraperei, snoring.  R.
Chsodim, mercies.  H.
Churbe, ruin.  H.
chuz, besides.  H.
Chuzpe, insolence.  H.
Chwales, billows.  Sl.
Corthaus, courthouse.  E.

Dacht sich, it seems.  G.
daled ames, four cubits.  H.  No one may approach an excommunicated person
within four cubits.
darfen, be obliged to.  G.
darr, withered.  G.
dasiger, der, that very.  G.
dawse, by all means.  H.
der--G. er.
derfar, for it.  G.
derhargenen, kill.  H.
derinnen, in it.  G.
dersonnen, recognize.  G.
derlangen a Remm, get hold of.  G.
derschlagen, strike dead.  G.
dervun machen, pay no attention.  G.
Dienstmald, handmaid.  G
Din, custom, law.  H.
dingen, haggle, urge.  G.
Dire, residence.  H.
Dorem, SOuth.  H.
Dores, generations.  H.
Drescher, flail.  G.
Drimmel, light sleep.  R.
drobne, tiny.  R.
Djodj, judge.  E.
(Pg. 149--ed.)

Ebig, eternal.  G.
Ed, end.  G.
Eedes, witnesses.  H.
Eeze, advice.  H.
esscher, perhaps.  H.
einhoren sich, listen attentively.  G.
einslappen sich, soak in.  P.
eintrinten sich, drench.  G.
eintulen, enwrap.  R.
Elul, sixth month in the Jewish calendar.  H.
Emes, truth.  H.
emesdig, real.  H.
emesser, true.  H.
Entser, answer.  G.
entsern, answer.  G.
entpleden, reveal.  G.
eppes, somewhat, somehow.  G.
Erech, approximation.  H.
Erew-schabes, Friday evening.  H.
ergez, somewhere.  G.
Esreg, lime.  H.

Fadem, thread.  G.
Faflol, flute.
fanandersingen sich, burst out singing.  G.
far, for.  G.
fleizen sich, endeavor.  G.
fleizen, flow abundantly.  G.
Forchtigseit, awe.  G.
Forman, foreman.  E.
fort, indeed, I pray.  G.
Frez, gluttony.  G.
froehlichdig, merrily.  G.
funtlen, flicker.  G.

Ganeeden, paradise.  H.
ganezen, yawn.  G.
ganwenen, steal.  H.
Gaslen, murderer.  H.
Gbolim, magnates.  H.
gefinnen, find.  G.
Geherei, marching.  G.
Gelagerl, couch.  G.
geniet, skilful.  G.
Geschant, present.  G.
geschmad, sweet.  G.
gesegnen sich, bid farewell.  G.
Gesind, family.  G.
gewaldewen, shout.  G.
gich, quickly.  G.
Gingold, pure gold.  G.
gleich, as if.  G.
Goles, exile.  H.
Goz, downpouring.  G.
Gramen, verses.  Greek (?).
Graul, horror.  G.
greit, prepared.  G.
g'ring, light.  G.
gro, gray.  G.
Gsar, decree of fate.  H.
G'segnenlied, song of parting.  G.
Gsisse, death.  H.
Gus, body.  H.
Gust, taste.  P.
G'walt, terror.  G.
g'waldig, terribly.  G.
Gwure. strength.  H.

Habewen, seek eagerly.  P.
halbe Racht, midnight.  G.
Haleweschte, brand.  R.
Har-haseesim, Olive-Mount.  H.
Harugim, killed bodies.  H.
Haschmonoim, Asmoneans.  H.
hester, abandoned.  H.
heunt, to-day.  G.
Horb, back.  P.
Hoschaine, willow branch.  H.
hulen, roam wildly.  P.
huzen, buzz.  Sl.
(Pg. 150--ed.)

I--t, both--and.  R.
Impet, incitement.  Lat.
Inden, billows.  G.
Inuim, affliction.  H.
izier, now.  G.

Jacht, chase.  G.
Jaile, Let there rise!  H.  Beginning of prayer in the eve of Atonement.
Jaw, ocean.  H.
jederer, every.  G.
jedwedes, everything.  G.
jedwider, every.  G.
Jerid, mart.  H.
Jessome, orphan.  H.
Jessurim, pain.  H.
Jiches, pride.  H.
Jom-hadin, judgement day.  H.
Jonfiper, atonement day.  H.
Jontew, holiday.
jungerheit, in youth.  G.

Kadesch, prayer for the dead (parents).  H.
Kale, bride.  H.
Kaltseit, coldness.  G.
kaltlich, cool.  G.
Kanarif, canary.  P.
karg, scanty.  G.
Kas, anger.  H.
Kaul, bullet.  G.
Kousche, religious fervor.  H.
Keewer, grave.  H.
keislen sich, roll.  G.
keensig, evidently.  G.
kesseeder, in succession.  H.
kechein, tickle.  G.
Kidesch-becher, cup of benediction.  H. & G.
Kidesch-lemone, benediction of the moon.  H.
kimat, almost.  H.
Kine, envy.  H.
Kine, dirge on the Day of the Destruction of the Temple.  H.
Kisches, magic.  H.
klappen, strike.  G.
klaren, think.  G.
kleden, suffice.  G.
kleiben sich, gather.  G.
Klesemer, instruments of music.  H.  (Klezmer!  There you are!
English?--ed.)
Klesmer, musician.  H.
Klesmorim, musicians.  H.
Klingerei, ringing.  G.
klomerst, for example.  H.
Klole, curse.  H.
knaden, roar.  G.
knapp, little.  G.
knetschen, wrinkle.  R.
Knoetel, wick.  G.
Kriegen, battle.  G.
Koch, excitement.  G.
Koches, strength.  H.
Kol, voice.  H.
Koles, voices.  H.
Korben, victim.  H.
Korew, relative.  H.
koscher, ritually pure.  H.
Koz, cap.  H.
Kosse, scythe.  R.
Kowed, honor.  H.
Krahe, crow.  G.
Kruwim, cherubim.  H.
Ksuwe, marriage contract.  H.
Kud, glance.  G.
kuden, look.  G.
kuschen, kiss.  G.
Kweet, flower.  Sl.
Kworim, graves.  H.
Kwure, grave.  H.
(Pg. 151--ed.)

Laremen, be in uproar.  G.
laschtschen, stroke gently.  R.
lasurn, azure.  R.
lausig, running.  G.
leben, near.  G.
lejenen, read.  F.
lefowed, in honor of.  H.
Le-schonohabo, tp the coming year.  H.
Lewaje, funeral.  H.
Lewone, moon.  H.
Lewonen, Lebanon.  H.
Lingere, mantle.  (?)
Loeb, lion.  G.
Lette, boat.  R.
Lulew, palm branch.  R.

Machascheese, witch.  H.
Machne, army.  H.
Machser, prayer-book.  H.
Mageese, shrew.  H.
Mairew, west.  H.
Maize-B'reeschis, Genesis.  H.
Maisselach, little stories.  H.
Malach, angel.  H.
Mamser, bastard.  H.
March, marrow.  G.
Mazel, star, luck.  H.
Mazoles, stars, destinies.  H.
mattern, torment.  G.
Mazeewe, tombstone.  H.
Mechaje, delight.  H.
mechajedig, delightfully.  H.
Mechile, forgiveness.  H.
Medine, realm.  H.
Messim, dead bodies.  H.
Meewin, connoisseur.  H.
mehrer, more.  G.
Mehume, consternation.  H.
Mein, opinion.  G.
Meiner, miner.  E.
mesadesch sein, consecrate.  H.
Menschenschachter, butcher of men.   G. & H.
Meride, sedition.  H.
merschune, wonderfully.  H.
Mez, corpse.  H.
mesten, measure.  G.
Midder, wilderness.  H.
Milchome, war.  H.
Minche, evening prayer.  H.
Mischvet, judgment.  H.
Misrach, East.  H.
mistome, no doubt.  H.
miswade sein sich, confess.  H.
Mite-trager, pall-bearer.  H. & G.
M'nore, chandelier.  H.
Moach, brain.  H.
Moch, moss.  R.
Mozen, whine.  (No language given--ed.)
More, fear, terror.  H.
moredig, terribly.  H.
Morie, Mount Moriah.  H.
Mrut, growl.  P.
Muhlchel, little mill.  G.
Mum, blemish.  H.
muntern, vivify.  G.
murmlen, mumble.  G.
muzne, turbid.  R.

Nachanand, in succession.  G.
nahnt, near.  G.
nahnter, nearer.  G.
Nawenand, wanderer.  H.
Nechome, consolation.  H.
Nesesch, creature.  H.
Nesome, revenge.  H.
Nemm, see berlangen.
Neschome, soul.  H.
Nessle, wandering.  H.
Nigen, melody.  H.
Nile, last prayer of Atonement day.  H.
(Pg. 152--ed.)
nischtosche, never mind.  G. & H.?
Nizochen, glory.  H.
Nore, hole.  R.
nu, well!  R.
nuzen, egg on.  R.

O (das), this very thing.  Sl.
Ofelach, birdies.  H.
oi, woe!  R.
Olem, people.  H.
on (dort), over yonder.  Sl.
Orel-tome, uncircumcised.  H.
Oren, coffin.  H.
Orenlodesch, holy ark.  H.
oi--oi, now--now.  R.
oi wu nit wu, now and then.
Ozres, fortunes.  H.

Paschen, herd.  R.
Pastuch, shepherd.  R.
Pastuschle, shepherdess.  R.
pattern, undo.  H.
Pesser, sleeper.  (No language given--ed.)
Pennile, little penny.  E.
pildern, cause an uproar.  G.
pzesten, fondle.  P.
pluzling, suddenly.  G.
Pogrom, riot.  R.
Poles, skirts.  R.
Ponim, face.  H.
Praze, work.  P.
prazewen, toil.  P.
pruzen, try.  G.
Psal, decision, sentence.  H.

Quellen, feel pleased.  G.

Razes, proofs.  H.
raf, continually.  H.
ranglen, wrestle.  G.
Rebe, teacher.  H.
Rebel, rabbi.  H.
Resue, convalescence; zu--, God bless you!  H.
Reschoim, evildoers.  H.
roien sich, swarm.  R.
Rosche, evil man.
Ruches, ghosts.  H.
Ruthlach, twigs.  H.


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Tue Jun 25 02:04:09 2002
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:04:09 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.220409.0400.>

Thanks, Larry, for the learned comments. I know you are an expert in
this field.

About the website, I was in a bit of a hurry to have it uploaded to the
Internet. In a few days I hope to have a better version up and running,
with the phonetics (lost in the conversion from WordPerfect to Word)
corrected and the piece de resistance (Vulva v. vagina) in full form
instead of a passing reference in the "Un-trademark" affidavit.

Where could I take a look at your Sophia Linguistica article? It sounds
fascinating.

Sorry again for the hasty presentation.

Best regards.

TOM.

Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> At 12:55 PM -0400 6/21/02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
> >On Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 12:49:41PM -0400, Steve Kl. wrote:
> >>  On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
> >>
> >>  > "American and British dictionaries have no clear notion of the female
> >>  > genitals." Visit: www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index/htm. (Hint: click
> >>  > "Trademark Affidavits").
> >>
> >>  I couldn't access this page.
> >>
> >>  Is the URL right?
> >
> >No, it should end in "index.htm"
> >                            ^
> >
> Very nice treatments.  I've actually written papers on both lexical
> clones (Tom's page 3) and un-nouns (his page 4), and heartily endorse
> the gist of his presentations here, although I've argued that each of
> the constructions is somewhat more complex that what Tom is able to
> provide in his affidavits (I'd better, since I've devoted a whole lot
> more ink/electrons to these constructions in my format than Tom could
> do in his).  In particular, I've divided (in "Un-Covering the
> Un-Word", published in the Japanese journal Sophia Linguistica 49
> (2002): 1-64) the class of un-nouns into two groups, the A (for
> "Almost")-class un-noun, in which an unX is almost (but not quite) a
> member of the category X, as in "un-cola" or "un-petroleum lip jelly"
> (my cite is not quite the same as Tom's but close--
>
> "Un-Petroleum(TM) Lip Jelly(TM)
> Un-Chap? your lips"
> (Label on product manufactured by Autumn Harp, Bristol, Vermont)
>
> --and I wonder whether this is indeed the company to which Tom refers
> in his affidavit), vs. the B (for "Barely")-class un-noun, in which
> an unY is indeed a member of the category Y, but not a prototype
> member (in Rosch's sense), i.e. not a Y Y.  There are some nice
> examples that oppose a B-class un-noun with a lexical clone, as in:
>
> Undesign:  Moving Away from Aggressive D?cor
> (NYT headline, 2 June 1988, C6)
> "Nothing is 'design designed'.  Nothing has a signature."
> -New York architect Diana Agrest
>
> or, for that matter, an anti-clone like the "un-diet diet".
>
> --larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 25 02:01:11 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:01:11 EDT
Subject: SONGS FROM THE GHETTO glossary, part two (1900)
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.220111.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SONGS FROM THE GHETTO
by Morris Rosenfeld
with prose translation, glossary, and introduction
by Leo Wiener, instructor in the Slavic Languages at Harvard University
New and Enlarged Edition
Boston:  Small, Maynard and Company
1900
1898, Copeland and Day
1899, Small, Maynard and Company

    The old German type face is very difficult to read.  The "f" and "s" and
"l" and "z" all can't be distinguished.  Expect tons of mistakes.  I
apologize in advance.


Quellen, feel pleased.  G.

Razes, proofs.  H.
raf, continually.  H.
ranglen, wrestle.  G.
Rebe, teacher.  H.
Rebel, rabbi.  H.
Resue, convalescence; zu--, God bless you!  H.
Reschoim, evildoers.  H.
roien sich, swarm.  R.
Rosche, evil man.
Ruches, ghosts.  H.
Ruthlach, twigs.  H.

Saeger, clock.  G.
Samd, sand.  G.
Scha, hush!  R.
Schabes, sabbath.  H.
Schadchen, go-between.  H.
schazich, proper.  H.
Schames, beadle.  H.
Schap, shop.  E.
Scheene, neighbor.  H.
Schine, Godhead.  H.
Scheedim, devils.  H.
scheptschen, whisper.  R.
Schizes, delay.  H.
Schilter, curser.  G.
Schir, limit.  H.
Schire, hymns.  H.
Schforim, lies.  H.
Schmed, fragrance.  G.
schmeden, smell.  G.
Schmeichel, smile.  G.
schmeichlen, smile.  G.
schminslen, twinkle.  G.
Scho, hour.  H.
schodlen, shake.  G.
Schofer, ram's-horn.  H.
Scholem, peace.  H.
Schorch, stir.  R.
S-chore, wares.  H.
Schoren, Sharon.  H.
Schote, fool.  H.
Schredeniz, terror.  G.
Schul, synagogue.  G.
schum, sein--, not at all.  H.
(Pg. 153--ed.)
Schwiz-schap, sweat-shop.  G. & E.
Schworim, third blast of the ram's horn.
see, they.  G.
seinen, are.  G.
sezer, very.  G.
Sent, cent.  E.
Sezen, cut.  G.
Ssire, forty-nine days after second day of Passover, during which no
festivities may take place.  H.
Silsulim, disgrace.  H.
Singerlach, choristers.  G.
Sliches, prayer preceding the morning prayer on the Sunday preceding the New
Year.  H.
Slup, post.  P.
Socher, merchants.  H.
Socherte, saleswoman.  H.
Sozetore, Scroll of the Law.  H.
Spielchel, toy.  G.
Srores, oppressor.  H.
Szatone, danger.  H.
szappen, gasp.  P.
Szeechel, reason.  H.
Szue, hatred.  H.
Szenz, branch.  P.
Szimche, joy.  H.
Szod, secrets.  H.
Szoz, end.  H.
Szolowei, nightingale.  H.
Szonim, enemies.  H.
Szute, arbor.  H.
Stabun, onionstalk.  Sl.
stam, any way.  H.
standig, all the time.  G.
stellen sich, take one's part.  G.
Steschte, bypath.  R.
Strit, street.  E.
Strunes, strings.  R.
stuppen sich, press forward.  G.
Stuss, nonsense.  H.
sudig, boiling.  G.
Susz, sob.  G.
suszen, sob.  G.
suppen, sip.
Swul, abode.  H.

Tachrichim, shrouds.  H.
Taine, discussion.  H.
tainen, discourse.  H.
tafe, indeed.  R.
Tam, taste.  H.
Tate, father.  P.
taug, is good for.  G
Tchine, prayer.  H.
teelef, exactly.  H.
Teich, river.  G.
Tfilas-haderech, prayer of passage.  H.
Tfile, prayer.  H.
Tfile leoni, road Psalm, used as a prayer in sickness.  H.
Tfisse, prison.  H.
Thom, abyss.  H.
Tieseniz, depth.  G.
Tkije, first blast of the ram's horn.  H.
Tnue, delay.  H.
Toli, order.  R.
tome, impure.  H.
tor, is allowed.  G.
Tore, Law.  H.
trachten, think.  G.
Trahr, tear.  G.
(Pg. 154--ed.)
trahren, weep.  G.
trellen, trill.  G.
treschtschen, crack.  R.
Tremoge, alarm.  R.\True, second blast of the ram's horn.  H.
Truy, corpse.  R.
tuden, submerge.  G.
tunsel, dark.  G.
Tupperei, tramping.  G.
Twile, (ritual) bath.  H.

Ubervrehen sich, turn around.  G.
uf--auf.
Ume, nation.  H.
Umet, melancholy.  G.
umetig, sad.  G.
Umruh, unrest, pendulum.  G.
umfust, in vain.  G.
untertunsen, dive under.  G.

Var, before.  G.
varbetten, invite.  G.
varblissen, flash.  G.
varchalescht, fainting.  H.
varschoschecht, wretched.  H.
varfallen, perish.  G.
varflichen, fly away.  G.
vargliwert, stark.  (No language given--ed.)
varsossemt, orphaned.  H.
varsahlt, chilled.  G.
varslemmt, oppressed.  G.
varsocht, absorbed.  G.
varloschen, extinguish.  G.
varmachen, shut.  G.
varmattert, exhausted.  G.
varmogen, possess.  G.
varmoren, starve.  R.
varmosten sich, threatened.  G.
varnummen, busy.  G.
varnugen, use up.  G.
varschleppen, drag away.  G.
varschnitten, cut off.  G.
varscholten, cursed.  G.
varschreiben, secure.  G.
varschwacht, weakened.  G.
warsvizt, clearly outlined.  G.
varthan, occupied.  G.
vartracht, lost in thoughts.  G.
varumert, saddened.  G.
varwenden, use up.  G.
varwiegen, rock to sleep.  G.
varwzanen, wither.  R.
varwogelt, neglected.  G.
varwollen sich, have a desire.  G.

Weilinte, little while.  G.
weizen, know.  G.
wemen, to whom.  G.
wer'en, become, will.  G.
Widul, confession.  H.
Willt sich mir, I want.  G.
winzig, little.  G.
Wissel, whistle.  E.
wozen, howl.  R.
wollten, would.  G.
Woltiag, well-doing.  G.
Workschap, workshop.  E.
Wuns, beckoning.  G.

Zadisim, just.  H.
Zar, anguish.  H.
ze--G. doch.  R.
zeitenweiss, at times.  G.
zitterdig, trembling.  G.
Zoffen, North.  H.
Zores, troubles.  H.
zu--G. zer.
zu, whether.  P.
zuchtig, clean.  G.
zuglaht, burning.  G.
(Pg. 155--ed.)
Zusersess, candy.  P
zuzlemmt, oppressed.  G.
zuslemmierheit, with oppressed heart.  G.
zuslingen sich, resound.  G.
zusnappen, twist.  G.
zunausruseu, call together.  G.
zunummen, taken apart.  G.
zure, face.  H.
zuspringen sich. burst.  G.
zutragen, scatter.  G.
zutreten, trod under foot.  G.
zuwehtagt, full of pain.  G.
zuworsen, scattered.  G.
Zwit, bloom.  R.


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Jun 25 02:33:48 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:33:48 -0400
Subject: "Watchable wildlife" & ethnic jokes
In-Reply-To: <16f.f8f4adb.2a48c57d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.223348.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 24 Jun 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

#Ruth King has done some work on the use of the term NEWFIE as a regional
#slur. she claims that people are generally highly offended by the term.

I first heard the word at an Ian and Sylvia concert. Ian was drinking
something he told us was "Newfie screech". = US "moonshine"?

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 25 02:48:36 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:48:36 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <3D17CF99.8767250@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.224836.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:04 PM -0400 6/24/02, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
>Thanks, Larry, for the learned comments. I know you are an expert in
>this field.
>
>About the website, I was in a bit of a hurry to have it uploaded to the
>Internet. In a few days I hope to have a better version up and running,
>with the phonetics (lost in the conversion from WordPerfect to Word)
>corrected and the piece de resistance (Vulva v. vagina) in full form
>instead of a passing reference in the "Un-trademark" affidavit.
>
>Where could I take a look at your Sophia Linguistica article? It sounds
>fascinating.
>
>Sorry again for the hasty presentation.
>
>Best regards.
>
>TOM.
>
Tom,

I'll be glad to send you an offprint.  What's your snail address?
(The version I presented at Stanford a month ago is a bit upgraded,
but the one in print isn't that different.)  I'd love to know more
about the vulva v. vagina case.  (Not, I assume, a lawsuit.)

Larry


From r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU  Tue Jun 25 03:13:48 2002
From: r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:13:48 +1000
Subject: router
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.131348.1000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Many thanks to many contributors for advice on "route" and "router",
which turned out far more varied and entertaining than I had expected.

By way of follow-up: I have been sent the following link with further
discussion:

http://www.rrz.uni-hamburg.de/RRZ/Personal/WCirsovius/FUN/PronounceRouter.html

Another angle and a possible precursor concerns army use in the
signals corps. A correspondent on my Aus language email list offers
the following:

As an Army signaller my experience of the word pre-dates modern computers.
In the days of torn tape relay messaging, there were alpha numeric codes
which were called routing (pron rowting) indicators. That was when it was
done handraulically.


Roly Sussex

--
**********************************************************

Roly Sussex
Professor of Applied Language Studies
Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics
School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies
The University of Queensland
Brisbane
Queensland 4072
AUSTRALIA

Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403
Phone:  +61 7 3365 6896
Fax:    +61 7 3365 2798
Email:  r.sussex at mailbox.uq.edu.au
Web:    http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html
School's website:
        http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/

Language Talkback ABC radio:
Web:    http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/

**********************************************************


From r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU  Tue Jun 25 04:00:40 2002
From: r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:00:40 +1000
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.140040.1000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have been struck - on NBC's "Today", CNN, NPR and other American
sources - with the increasing frequency of voiced intervocalic or
inter-voiced-segment fricatives, especially in proper names:

        Jerusalem       [-z-]
        Kashmir         [-zh-] (can't do voiced palatalo-alveolars in email)

although the unvoiced parallels are also heard.

Has there been any work describing this shift (as distinct from other
intervocalic voicings like flapping and words like "exit" as [-gz-],
which looks well established as favoured in US English: MW has it
first; OED only has [-ks-]). Is it lexically most found in foreign
proper names?

Roly Sussex

--
**********************************************************

Roly Sussex
Professor of Applied Language Studies
Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics
School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies
The University of Queensland
Brisbane
Queensland 4072
AUSTRALIA

Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403
Phone:  +61 7 3365 6896
Fax:    +61 7 3365 2798
Email:  r.sussex at mailbox.uq.edu.au
Web:    http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html
School's website:
        http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/

Language Talkback ABC radio:
Web:    http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/

**********************************************************


From dave at WILTON.NET  Tue Jun 25 05:51:25 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:51:25 -0700
Subject: router
In-Reply-To: <a05111b11b93d8edd9583@[172.22.14.37]>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.225125.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Another angle and a possible precursor concerns army use in the
> signals corps. A correspondent on my Aus language email list offers
> the following:
>
> As an Army signaller my experience of the word pre-dates
> modern computers.
> In the days of torn tape relay messaging, there were alpha
> numeric codes
> which were called routing (pron rowting) indicators. That was
> when it was
> done handraulically.

Back in my US Army days (late 80s) we had routing slips (also pron rowting),
yellow pieces of paper that were stapled to the covers of documents that
indicated which offices/persons should see the document and in which order.
Of course we could have just used a photocopier, but I guess some traditions
die hard. Saved a lot of trees though.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 25 06:05:50 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 02:05:50 EDT
Subject: Thomas Mount's flash language (1791)
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.020550.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I was going through the online Alaska libraries, checking for Alaska slang
books.  I came across the _Confessions of Thomas Mount_ (1791).  This
supposedly contains a list of flash words.  However, when I ran "T(homas)
Mount" through the NYPL and LOC catalogs and through the online OED, nothing
came up.  Has anyone seen this work and recorded any of the flash words?
What words are they?



Title:      The confession, &c. of Thomas Mount, [microform] : who was
executed at Little-Rest, in the state of Rhode-Island, on Friday the 27th of
May, 1791, for burglary.
Author:     <A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=au&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Mount%2C+Thomas%2C">Mount, Thomas, 1764-1791.</A>
Publisher:      [Newport, R.I.] : Printed and sold by Peter Edes, in
Newport., [1791?]
Subjects:   <A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Mount%2C+Thomas%2C">Mount, Thomas,</A> <A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Mount%2C+Thomas%2C+1764%2D1791%2E">1764-1791.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Flash+Company%2E">Flash Company.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Burglary">Burglary</A>--<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Burglary+Rhode+Island%2E">Rhode Island.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Crime%2E">Crime.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Criminals%2E">Criminals.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Executions+and+executioners">Executions and executioners</A>--<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Executions+and+executioners+Rhode+Island%2E">Rhode Island.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Organized+crime%2E">Organized crime.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Crime">Crime</A>--<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Crime+Slang%2E">Slang.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Criminals">Criminals</A>--<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Criminals+Slang%2E">Slang.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Slang%2E">Slang.</A>
<A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=su&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Songs%2E">Songs.</A>

Description:    21, [1] p. ; (4to)
Notes:      Includes an account of the Flash Company, a confederation of
thieves, together with a list of Flash words and phrases, the Oath, and
several Flash songs.
Editor's preface signed: William Smith. Newport, May 20, 1791.
Imprint from colophon.
Title vignette.
Signatures: [A]4 B4 C4(-C4) (C3 verso blank).
Evans 23773
Alden, J.E. Rhode Island, 1259
Microfiche. [New York : Readex Microprint, 1985] 11 x 15 cm. (Early American
imprints. First series ; no. 23773).

Other Name:     Smith, William,

Series Title:   <A HREF="http://lexicon.ci.anchorage.ak.us/web2/tramp2.exe/do_authority_search/A3qg7dfl.001?servers=aml&index=ti&material_filter=&language_filter=&location_filter=&location_group_filter=all&date_filter=&query=Early+American+imprints%2E">Early American imprints. no. 23773.</A>


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Tue Jun 25 11:28:20 2002
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 07:28:20 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.072820.0400.>

Hi Larry,

>From my "card" in preparation:

Address:

83 Sunny Meadow Blvd.
Brampton, Ontario, Canada L6R 1Z3

Phone: 905-790-7076; fax: 905-790-9168

Thanks for the Sophia Linguistica article or the Stanford version,
whichever is easier to dig.

Vagina v. Vulva was tried by mail, distributed to about 20 scholars
(including Dr. Rheinhold Aman), and finally published in a popular
version by COPY EDITOR, Oct.-Nov. 1998, thanks to DSNA member Mary Beth
Protomastro. (AS wouldn't publish it even in a "dehumorized" version, as
Bob Wachal put it). There were strong reactions to the CE article from
some feminists, one calling the lexicographer a pornographer. (I checked
with an attorney in Maryland, but decided not to be bothered, since I
was in the company of OED's Edmund Weiner and Prof. Wachal of Iowa. Both
Weiner and Wachal raise the question of "the unfortunate dearth of humor
in academic publishing." I am waiting for permission to publish their
comments on the website. I will mail you a copy of the CE article - not
good enough for my website!

Thanks for the interest.

TOM.

Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> At 10:04 PM -0400 6/24/02, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
> >Thanks, Larry, for the learned comments. I know you are an expert in
> >this field.
> >
> >About the website, I was in a bit of a hurry to have it uploaded to the
> >Internet. In a few days I hope to have a better version up and running,
> >with the phonetics (lost in the conversion from WordPerfect to Word)
> >corrected and the piece de resistance (Vulva v. vagina) in full form
> >instead of a passing reference in the "Un-trademark" affidavit.
> >
> >Where could I take a look at your Sophia Linguistica article? It sounds
> >fascinating.
> >
> >Sorry again for the hasty presentation.
> >
> >Best regards.
> >
> >TOM.
> >
> Tom,
>
> I'll be glad to send you an offprint.  What's your snail address?
> (The version I presented at Stanford a month ago is a bit upgraded,
> but the one in print isn't that different.)  I'd love to know more
> about the vulva v. vagina case.  (Not, I assume, a lawsuit.)
>
> Larry


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Tue Jun 25 12:42:58 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:42:58 -0400
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
In-Reply-To: <a05111b15b93d991ffcfb@[172.22.14.37]>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.084258.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My observation is that in the USA the s in "San Jose" is essentially always
voiced, and the s in "El Paso" and names containing "mesa" is never voiced.
 This is probably not related to the placement of the stress, as your
examples indicate.

--Charles Wells

>I have been struck - on NBC's "Today", CNN, NPR and other American
>sources - with the increasing frequency of voiced intervocalic or
>inter-voiced-segment fricatives, especially in proper names:
>
>        Jerusalem       [-z-]
>        Kashmir         [-zh-] (can't do voiced palatalo-alveolars in email)
>
>although the unvoiced parallels are also heard.
>
>Has there been any work describing this shift (as distinct from other
>intervocalic voicings like flapping and words like "exit" as [-gz-],
>which looks well established as favoured in US English: MW has it
>first; OED only has [-ks-]). Is it lexically most found in foreign
>proper names?
>
>Roly Sussex
>
>--
>**********************************************************
>
>Roly Sussex
>Professor of Applied Language Studies
>Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics
>School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies
>The University of Queensland
>Brisbane
>Queensland 4072
>AUSTRALIA
>
>Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403
>Phone:  +61 7 3365 6896
>Fax:    +61 7 3365 2798
>Email:  r.sussex at mailbox.uq.edu.au
>Web:    http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html
>School's website:
>        http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/
>
>Language Talkback ABC radio:
>Web:    http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/
>
>**********************************************************



Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 25 13:01:01 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 09:01:01 -0400
Subject: Thomas Mount's flash language (1791)
In-Reply-To: <11d.130e5d83.2a49623e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.090101.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 02:05:50AM -0400, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    I was going through the online Alaska libraries, checking for Alaska slang
> books.  I came across the _Confessions of Thomas Mount_ (1791).  This
> supposedly contains a list of flash words.  However, when I ran "T(homas)
> Mount" through the NYPL and LOC catalogs and through the online OED, nothing
> came up.  Has anyone seen this work and recorded any of the flash words?
> What words are they?

HDAS makes very heavy use of this source, cites as "Confess. T. Mount". It
has our first American examples for a wide variety of cant terms.

Jesse Sheidlower


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 25 13:33:27 2002
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 09:33:27 EDT
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.093327.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think I commented a few years ago that Joseph is going the other way-- it
was always /z/ in the old days, but many young people here in NJ and I've
heard it from Californians too, now have /s/.   I think Jerusalem may have
been /z/ too according to some older dictionaries (100 years ago).
        I also reported in an AS article a while back on a very complicated
regional pattern for 'houses'--the noun plural, which can show either /s/ or
/z/ for both final and medial fricative all over the US.

Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 25 16:08:27 2002
From: stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM (s. . .)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 09:08:27 -0700
Subject: In/To...
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.090827.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hello. Could you please explain to me the three
utterances below from a notional and pragmatic
viewpoint?

"She must have been in Africa." [as opposed to "...to
Africa."]

"He's been in Alaska twice." [as opposed to "...to
Alaska..."]

"She's been in England for a long time."

What exactly is the speaker's location in each of
them? Could he/she possibly be in more places than
one? Where are the three visitors 'now'?

More constructions of that type, which would further
help me clarify the role and meaning of "in" versus
"to," will be much appreciated.

Thanks.

P. Lombardo

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Jun 25 16:26:31 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:26:31 -0400
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
In-Reply-To: <110.142b1e36.2a49cb27@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.122631.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Dale Coye wrote:

#I think I commented a few years ago that Joseph is going the other way-- it
#was always /z/ in the old days, but many young people here in NJ and I've
#heard it from Californians too, now have /s/.   I think Jerusalem may have
#been /z/ too according to some older dictionaries (100 years ago).

I've heard Jeru/z/alem for a long time; I guess I'm used to it as an
alternate. Like Roly, I've noticed Ka/Z/mir appearing more often in the
news reports in recent... hm, months but the past several years as well,
ISTM.

However, I noticed /Z/ many decades ago, if memory serves, in the
eponymous "cashmere" -- maybe even in my grandmother's speech (b. NYC
approx. 1889) -- and remarked on it to myself.

#        I also reported in an AS article a while back on a very complicated
#regional pattern for 'houses'--the noun plural, which can show either /s/ or
#/z/ for both final and medial fricative all over the US.

How does the distribution of the final /s/ in this plural compare with
general final plural /s/?

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 25 16:36:51 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:36:51 -0400
Subject: In/To...
In-Reply-To: <20020625160827.16395.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.123651.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Too easy (until someone else answers); The 'in' is the 'in' of
location and the 'to' is the 'to' of experience (not the 'to' of
direction, as in "I'm driving to Alaska tomorrow"). (Let's not mess
with dialects which have another "to" - 'I was to John's house
yesterday.')

Therefore,

"She must have been in Africa (located there) when the bomb went off."
but *"She must have been to Africa when the bomb went off."

"He's been in Alaska twice (located there each time) when they've had
an earthquake."
but *"He's been to Alaska twice when they've had an earthquake."

"She's been in England for a long time (located there) but just escaped"
but *She's been to England for a long time but just escaped."

There are forced experiential readings of the *-ed sentences (and
that reading of the second is really not so forced), but I think
these contrasts show the distinctions you are after (and help you
resolve the other serious metaphysical problems you were apparently
having).

dInIs

>Hello. Could you please explain to me the three
>utterances below from a notional and pragmatic
>viewpoint?
>
>"She must have been in Africa." [as opposed to "...to
>Africa."]
>
>"He's been in Alaska twice." [as opposed to "...to
>Alaska..."]
>
>"She's been in England for a long time."
>
>What exactly is the speaker's location in each of
>them? Could he/she possibly be in more places than
>one? Where are the three visitors 'now'?
>
>More constructions of that type, which would further
>help me clarify the role and meaning of "in" versus
>"to," will be much appreciated.
>
>Thanks.
>
>P. Lombardo
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 25 16:42:35 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:42:35 -0400
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0206251221010.3021971-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.124235.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And how can any of this account for the fact that W has got no final
voiced continuants - plurals (e.g., reaches), possessives (e.g., Bin
Laden's), 3rd person indicatives (e.g., begs) or plain old
monomorphemes (e.g., badge). Just listen.

dInIs



>On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Dale Coye wrote:
>
>#I think I commented a few years ago that Joseph is going the other way-- it
>#was always /z/ in the old days, but many young people here in NJ and I've
>#heard it from Californians too, now have /s/.   I think Jerusalem may have
>#been /z/ too according to some older dictionaries (100 years ago).
>
>I've heard Jeru/z/alem for a long time; I guess I'm used to it as an
>alternate. Like Roly, I've noticed Ka/Z/mir appearing more often in the
>news reports in recent... hm, months but the past several years as well,
>ISTM.
>
>However, I noticed /Z/ many decades ago, if memory serves, in the
>eponymous "cashmere" -- maybe even in my grandmother's speech (b. NYC
>approx. 1889) -- and remarked on it to myself.
>
>#        I also reported in an AS article a while back on a very complicated
>#regional pattern for 'houses'--the noun plural, which can show either /s/ or
>#/z/ for both final and medial fricative all over the US.
>
>How does the distribution of the final /s/ in this plural compare with
>general final plural /s/?
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel
>    Linguist at Large

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 25 17:15:01 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:15:01 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <3D1853D4.D1B34471@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.131501.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:28 AM -0400 6/25/02, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
>Hi Larry,
>
>>>From my "card" in preparation:
>
>Address:
>
>83 Sunny Meadow Blvd.
>Brampton, Ontario, Canada L6R 1Z3
>
>Phone: 905-790-7076; fax: 905-790-9168
>
>Thanks for the Sophia Linguistica article or the Stanford version,
>whichever is easier to dig.

Sure.  The Stanford one is just transparencies, so the Japanese one
it will have to be.

>
>Vagina v. Vulva was tried by mail, distributed to about 20 scholars
>(including Dr. Rheinhold Aman), and finally published in a popular
>version by COPY EDITOR, Oct.-Nov. 1998, thanks to DSNA member Mary Beth
>Protomastro. (AS wouldn't publish it even in a "dehumorized" version, as
>Bob Wachal put it). There were strong reactions to the CE article from
>some feminists, one calling the lexicographer a pornographer. (I checked
>with an attorney in Maryland, but decided not to be bothered, since I
>was in the company of OED's Edmund Weiner and Prof. Wachal of Iowa. Both
>Weiner and Wachal raise the question of "the unfortunate dearth of humor
>in academic publishing." I am waiting for permission to publish their
>comments on the website. I will mail you a copy of the CE article - not
>good enough for my website!
>
>Thanks for the interest.
>
>TOM.

That would be great.  In exchange, I'll enclose a copy of a somewhat
risque paper of my own from a few years back.  I'll have to mail them
to you on Monday, though; I'm about to go in for a five day
chemotherapy session.

larry


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 25 17:26:03 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:26:03 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <p04320401b93e50bd26fb@[130.132.245.190]>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.132603.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I hope larry and TOM will stop using the ADS system for pornoraphic exchanges!


dInIs

>At 7:28 AM -0400 6/25/02, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
>>Hi Larry,
>>
>>>>From my "card" in preparation:
>>
>>Address:
>>
>>83 Sunny Meadow Blvd.
>>Brampton, Ontario, Canada L6R 1Z3
>>
>>Phone: 905-790-7076; fax: 905-790-9168
>>
>>Thanks for the Sophia Linguistica article or the Stanford version,
>>whichever is easier to dig.
>
>Sure.  The Stanford one is just transparencies, so the Japanese one
>it will have to be.
>
>>
>>Vagina v. Vulva was tried by mail, distributed to about 20 scholars
>>(including Dr. Rheinhold Aman), and finally published in a popular
>>version by COPY EDITOR, Oct.-Nov. 1998, thanks to DSNA member Mary Beth
>>Protomastro. (AS wouldn't publish it even in a "dehumorized" version, as
>>Bob Wachal put it). There were strong reactions to the CE article from
>>some feminists, one calling the lexicographer a pornographer. (I checked
>>with an attorney in Maryland, but decided not to be bothered, since I
>>was in the company of OED's Edmund Weiner and Prof. Wachal of Iowa. Both
>>Weiner and Wachal raise the question of "the unfortunate dearth of humor
>>in academic publishing." I am waiting for permission to publish their
>>comments on the website. I will mail you a copy of the CE article - not
>>good enough for my website!
>>
>>Thanks for the interest.
>>
>>TOM.
>
>That would be great.  In exchange, I'll enclose a copy of a somewhat
>risque paper of my own from a few years back.  I'll have to mail them
>to you on Monday, though; I'm about to go in for a five day
>chemotherapy session.
>
>larry

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 25 17:43:42 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:43:42 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <a05010408b93e580303ec@[35.10.92.197]>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.134342.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:26 PM -0400 6/25/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>I hope larry and TOM will stop using the ADS system for pornoraphic exchanges!
>
>dInIs
>
oopsie.  our bad.  at least they weren't pornographic.

larry


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 25 17:49:25 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:49:25 EDT
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.134925.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/25/02 8:43:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
charles at FREUDE.COM writes:

> My observation is that in the USA the [second] s in "San Jose" is
essentially always
>  voiced, and the s in "El Paso" and names containing "mesa" is never voiced.
>   This is probably not related to the placement of the stress, as your
>  examples indicate.

I have a suggestion specific to "Jose/".  In English there are very few
common words that have /os/ (that's supposed to be a long "o" as in "home").
The only ones that come to mind are "gross", "close" (adjective only, the
verb is /kloz/), and "dosido".  "Explosive" (and the phonetician's variant
"plosive") can have either /s/ or /z/.  On the other hand, for /oz/ there is
"bows", "blows", "cozy", "closing", "crows", and so on alphabetically.  Do
you find it surpri/z/ing that "Jose" gets a /z/?

If I heard someone say "Jose" as /ho 'sei/ I would think that person is
either a native Spanish speaker or is making an effort to pronounce Spanish
correctly, and habitually refers to the character in Carmen as /don ho 'sei/
rather than as /dahn ho 'zei/.

Note the mondegreen "Jose can you see" for the opening line of the "Star
Spangled Banner" which falls flat if pronounced /ho sei/, even though the
correct version is /o sei/.

If you want to do a survey, also ask people how they pronounce the Biblical
name "Hosea".  I once had a classmate (now an MD in Boston) named Steve
Hosea, and he pronounced his name /ho 'zei/.  (Steve, easily the best punster
in the class, came in one day with a bandage near one eye, and was
immediately addressed with "Hosea can you see?").

      - Jim Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 25 17:54:06 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:54:06 EDT
Subject: Off Off Topic
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.135406.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/25/02 1:43:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

> oopsie.  our bad.  at least they weren't pornographic.

which is fine, because I don't have a pornograph.

Seriously, this is the second time in two days that you have used the
expression "our bad" or "my bad".  I don't recall ever having heard this
expression before.

      - Jim Landau


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Tue Jun 25 17:57:06 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:57:06 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <76.1e42ae0d.2a4a083e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.135706.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

>Seriously, this is the second time in two days that you have used the
>expression "our bad" or "my bad".  I don't recall ever having heard this
>expression before.

Where have you been HIDING? Or who have you been hanging with? I have been
hearing it and occasionally using it for at least 10-12 years, I think.

Bethany


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Jun 25 17:57:06 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 18:57:06 +0100
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <76.1e42ae0d.2a4a083e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.185706.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Tuesday, June 25, 2002 1:54 pm +0000 "James A. Landau"
<JJJRLandau at AOL.COM> wrote:

> Seriously, this is the second time in two days that you have used the
> expression "our bad" or "my bad".  I don't recall ever having heard this
> expression before.

Which means that you don't know my brother John.  He's used it at least
since he was in college (in Ohio, in the late 80s).

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 25 18:05:06 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:05:06 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <76.1e42ae0d.2a4a083e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.140506.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

> Seriously, this is the second time in two days that you have used the
> expression "our bad" or "my bad".  I don't recall ever having heard this
> expression before.

American Heritage Dictionary, 4th ed (deluxe and college) enter "my bad"
as an idiom at 'bad'. I suspect at least some other American dictionaries
do too.

-- Steve


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 25 18:05:25 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:05:25 -0400
Subject: No Show Socks
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.140525.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NO SHOW SOCKS

   The big story in today's (Tuesday's) WALL STREET JOURNAL, page one, center column, is "no show socks."  They're "low-rider" socks that can't be seen to everybody, but hey, you're still wearing socks.
   I'd call 'em "stealth socks"...Not to be confused with when Bill and Hillary's cat Socks doesn't show up.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
MISC.

   Greetings from the Seattle airport.
   I thought that the Thomas Mount work was used, but I just didn't find it in an online OED search.
   The latest YANKEES MAGAZINE on the newsstand (March 2002 is the date they try to hide) has a history of the Yankees' 100 yerars, starting with the 1900s.  My work--which they didn't acknowledge when I submitted it to them--is used without payment and without credit.
   David Shulman also saw that article about Don Foster, and I told him that yes, Foster was the guy I submitted his Washington Irving finding to and who didn't respond.  Today's NEW YORK TIMES corrects:  "He is Richard Kennedy, not 'Mr. Richards.'"  Four days for this?


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 25 18:10:24 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:10:24 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0206251355340.4968-100000@larry.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.141024.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:57 PM -0400 6/25/02, Bethany K. Dumas wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:
>
>>Seriously, this is the second time in two days that you have used the
>>expression "our bad" or "my bad".  I don't recall ever having heard this
>>expression before.
>
>Where have you been HIDING? Or who have you been hanging with? I have been
>hearing it and occasionally using it for at least 10-12 years, I think.
>
We had a major thread on this way back when.  (I think I may have
kicked it off.)  I then got written up as an "expert" informant in a
Bob Greene column on the topic, so I'm particularly fond of the
expression.

larry

P.S.  To be exact, Oct.-Nov. 1997, if anyone wants to consult the archives

P.P.S.  And if anyone is wondering, after I inadvertently outed
myself in what I thought was a one-on-one message that went out to
the list, the reason I'm going in for chemotherapy is that I was just
(a little over a month ago) diagnosed with non-Hodgkins lymphoma, of
a particularly aggressive form (mantle cell).  So I'm in for six
months of intensive chemo, as a periodic in-patient, but my infirmary
room has a port for my laptop (as I myself do, for the IV), so I'll
be able to check in.  And I'm very much looking forward to bringing
along the Allen Walker Read volume as my bedside reading.


From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU  Tue Jun 25 18:24:37 2002
From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:24:37 -0500
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
In-Reply-To: <a05010406b93e4d25774d@[35.10.92.197]>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.132437.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

He just didn't pay attention in phonics class and has extended terminal
voicelessness to all words ending with sibilance.  "It's spelled with an -s
and people oughta say it with an -s !!"
DMLance

on 6/25/02 11:42 AM, Dennis R. Preston at preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU wrote:

> And how can any of this account for the fact that W has got no final
> voiced continuants - plurals (e.g., reaches), possessives (e.g., Bin
> Laden's), 3rd person indicatives (e.g., begs) or plain old
> monomorphemes (e.g., badge). Just listen.
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
>> On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Dale Coye wrote:
>>
>> #I think I commented a few years ago that Joseph is going the other way-- it
>> #was always /z/ in the old days, but many young people here in NJ and I've
>> #heard it from Californians too, now have /s/.   I think Jerusalem may have
>> #been /z/ too according to some older dictionaries (100 years ago).
>>
>> I've heard Jeru/z/alem for a long time; I guess I'm used to it as an
>> alternate. Like Roly, I've noticed Ka/Z/mir appearing more often in the
>> news reports in recent... hm, months but the past several years as well,
>> ISTM.
>>
>> However, I noticed /Z/ many decades ago, if memory serves, in the
>> eponymous "cashmere" -- maybe even in my grandmother's speech (b. NYC
>> approx. 1889) -- and remarked on it to myself.
>>
>> #        I also reported in an AS article a while back on a very complicated
>> #regional pattern for 'houses'--the noun plural, which can show either /s/ or
>> #/z/ for both final and medial fricative all over the US.
>>
>> How does the distribution of the final /s/ in this plural compare with
>> general final plural /s/?
>>
>> -- Mark A. Mandel
>> Linguist at Large
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
> preston at pilot.msu.edu
> Office: (517)353-0740
> Fax: (517)432-2736
>


From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU  Tue Jun 25 18:29:18 2002
From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:29:18 -0500
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
In-Reply-To: <15f.fbeb902.2a4a0725@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.132918.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 6/25/02 12:49 PM, James A. Landau at JJJRLandau at AOL.COM wrote:

> In a message dated 6/25/02 8:43:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> charles at FREUDE.COM writes:
>
>> My observation is that in the USA the [second] s in "San Jose" is
> essentially always
>> voiced, and the s in "El Paso" and names containing "mesa" is never voiced.
>> This is probably not related to the placement of the stress, as your
>> examples indicate.
>
> I have a suggestion specific to "Jose/".  In English there are very few
> common words that have /os/ (that's supposed to be a long "o" as in "home").
> The only ones that come to mind are "gross", "close" (adjective only, the
> verb is /kloz/), and "dosido".  "Explosive" (and the phonetician's variant
> "plosive") can have either /s/ or /z/.  On the other hand, for /oz/ there is
> "bows", "blows", "cozy", "closing", "crows", and so on alphabetically.  Do
> you find it surpri/z/ing that "Jose" gets a /z/?
>
Verner's Law 'mesa' and 'jose' have different stress patterns.  Press W's
phonology doesn't follow the penultimate sentence.

But Verner's Law doesn't explain the Jeruzalem items in the original query.
Some lexicalization involved too.

DMLance


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 25 18:38:53 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:38:53 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <76.1e42ae0d.2a4a083e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.143853.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James A. Landau said:
>In a message dated 6/25/02 1:43:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
>>  oopsie.  our bad.  at least they weren't pornographic.
>
>which is fine, because I don't have a pornograph.
>
>Seriously, this is the second time in two days that you have used the
>expression "our bad" or "my bad".  I don't recall ever having heard this
>expression before.
>

Wasn't it in this very forum that we've had several threads on the
expression in the past few years?

Alice


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Tue Jun 25 18:44:09 2002
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:44:09 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.144409.0400.>

Ten four!

"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:
>
> I hope larry and TOM will stop using the ADS system for pornoraphic exchanges!
>
> dInIs
>
>


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Tue Jun 25 18:39:22 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:39:22 -0400
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
In-Reply-To: <B93E1F95.3359%lancedm@missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.143922.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It appears to me that many southerners, black and white, and many young
people here in the midwest, unvoice all final consonants while keeping the
variation in vowel length determined by the voicing, whence the vowel
length becomes phonemic. My ear is not very good so I am not sure, and
maybe some of it is only partial unvoicing.  In my church choir here in
Oberlin, when we are reminded of diction, we pronounce the final "t" with a
clear release in words such as "want", but also in "God" and "Lord" I hear
some choir members pronouncing the final consonant as a released "t".  One
(young) member said that in her former choir in Florida she was explicitly
told not to pronounce it as a released "d" and our {young} choir director
from Illinois agreed that it sounded bad.  Or should I say bat.

I would be curious to know if trained linguists have detected this.

--Charles Wells

>He just didn't pay attention in phonics class and has extended terminal
>voicelessness to all words ending with sibilance.  "It's spelled with an -s
>and people oughta say it with an -s !!"
>DMLance
>
>on 6/25/02 11:42 AM, Dennis R. Preston at preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU wrote:
>
>> And how can any of this account for the fact that W has got no final
>> voiced continuants - plurals (e.g., reaches), possessives (e.g., Bin
>> Laden's), 3rd person indicatives (e.g., begs) or plain old
>> monomorphemes (e.g., badge). Just listen.
>>
>> dInIs
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Dale Coye wrote:
>>>
>>> #I think I commented a few years ago that Joseph is going the other
way-- it
>>> #was always /z/ in the old days, but many young people here in NJ and I've
>>> #heard it from Californians too, now have /s/.   I think Jerusalem may have
>>> #been /z/ too according to some older dictionaries (100 years ago).
>>>
>>> I've heard Jeru/z/alem for a long time; I guess I'm used to it as an
>>> alternate. Like Roly, I've noticed Ka/Z/mir appearing more often in the
>>> news reports in recent... hm, months but the past several years as well,
>>> ISTM.
>>>
>>> However, I noticed /Z/ many decades ago, if memory serves, in the
>>> eponymous "cashmere" -- maybe even in my grandmother's speech (b. NYC
>>> approx. 1889) -- and remarked on it to myself.
>>>
>>> #        I also reported in an AS article a while back on a very
complicated
>>> #regional pattern for 'houses'--the noun plural, which can show either
>/s/ or
>>> #/z/ for both final and medial fricative all over the US.
>>>
>>> How does the distribution of the final /s/ in this plural compare with
>>> general final plural /s/?
>>>
>>> -- Mark A. Mandel
>>> Linguist at Large
>>
>> --
>> Dennis R. Preston
>> Department of Linguistics and Languages
>> Michigan State University
>> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
>> preston at pilot.msu.edu
>> Office: (517)353-0740
>> Fax: (517)432-2736
>>



Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 25 18:45:29 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:45:29 -0400
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
In-Reply-To: <B93E20AE.335A%lancedm@missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.144529.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:29 PM -0500 6/25/02, Donald M Lance wrote:
>on 6/25/02 12:49 PM, James A. Landau at JJJRLandau at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>>  In a message dated 6/25/02 8:43:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>>  charles at FREUDE.COM writes:
>>
>>>  My observation is that in the USA the [second] s in "San Jose" is
>>  essentially always
>>>  voiced, and the s in "El Paso" and names containing "mesa" is never voiced.
>>>  This is probably not related to the placement of the stress, as your
>>>  examples indicate.
>>
>>  I have a suggestion specific to "Jose/".  In English there are very few
>>  common words that have /os/ (that's supposed to be a long "o" as in "home").
>>  The only ones that come to mind are "gross", "close" (adjective only, the
>>  verb is /kloz/), and "dosido".  "Explosive" (and the phonetician's variant
>>  "plosive") can have either /s/ or /z/.  On the other hand, for /oz/ there is
>>  "bows", "blows", "cozy", "closing", "crows", and so on alphabetically.  Do
>>  you find it surpri/z/ing that "Jose" gets a /z/?
>>
>Verner's Law 'mesa' and 'jose' have different stress patterns.  Press W's
>phonology doesn't follow the penultimate sentence.
>
>But Verner's Law doesn't explain the Jeruzalem items in the original query.
>Some lexicalization involved too.
>
Right, but it should be noted that there are MANY speakers who have
always said "Jo[z]e" but have never said "Jeru[z]alem", so I think
the stress difference is relevant here for a lot of us (e.g. me).

larry


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 25 19:04:23 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 15:04:23 EDT
Subject: ethnic jokes
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.150423.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/24/02 8:05:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
einstein at FROGNET.NET writes:

> The Italian jokes of my downstate NY youth were Polish jokes upstate; when I
>  came to Ohio they became WV jokes and on my Fulbright to Germany they
>  transmuted into Fries jokes.  Friesland (Frisia) is the narrow coastal
strip
>  of the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark that borders the North Sea. In
>  Toulouse on a subsequent exchange I was told the French looked down on the
>  Belgians but I heard no jokes at their expense.

In a message dated 6/24/02 10:25:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes:

> Also, with reference to the butts of ethnic jokes: a few years ago I
>  bought a book called "Newfie Jokes", based on the stupidity of people
>  from Newfoundland.  Presumably this stereotype is widespread in the
>  rest of Canada?

Newfoundland did not become part of Canada until 1949.  Newfoundland speech
was first recognized as a unique dialect of English in the 18th Century.
Newfoundland time is GMT + 3 1/2 hours, that is, Newfoundland time is one
HALF hour ahead of  the Atlantic Standard Time used in the rest of the
Maritime Provinces.  Its politics are matched only by those of British
Columbia.

Sad to say, it would be surprising to find that Newfoundlanders had not
acquired an uncomplimentary stereotype and an accompanying set of disparaging
ethnic jokes.

A good analogy would probably be the Ohioans cited above who told West
Virginia jokes ("Have you heard of the twenty West Virginians who suffocated
to death?  They saw a Pontiac GTO, thought it meant 'Going To Ohio', and all
climbed in.")

Now to analyze the examples that have accumulated on (infected?) this thread.

First, ethnic jokes are not a category unto themselves, but are rather a
subcategory of group stereotype jokes.  Consider "blonde jokes".  A coworker
from (I think) Nebraska liked to tell "Aggie" jokes about the state's Ag
school.  (Aside to Mark Mandel: you will recall that Komarrans tell Impsec
jokes).

Group stereotype jokes are not ALWAYS disparaging.  Jews tell fundraiser
jokes, in which the stereotype (well-earned!) is the chutzpah of a
fund-raiser.  E.g. the hard sell given a reluctant donor asked to contribute
towards an exhibit on the Jewish poet Ibn-Gavirol: "He died in his 30's,
leaving behind a penniless widow with 6 children."  The donor, overcome, gave
generously, unaware that Ibn Gavirol has been dead for 600 years.

Then there are the combination stereotype jokes, such as "How do you take a
census in a [insert ethnic name] neighborhood?  Roll a nickel down the
street, count one for everybody who chases after it, and subtract one for the
[different ethnic name] who catches it."

Or "an Aggie and an Asian went fishing.  The Asian catches a fish and starts
staring at it.  [Storyteller pantomines staring at the fish.]  All of a
sudden the fish's eyes slant.  'Why, that's the most amazing thing I ever
saw,' the Aggie said.  'How did you do it.'  'Simple', said the Asian.  'I
look at the fish and think, "I'm smarter than you are."  The Aggie then
catches a fish and starts staring at it.  [Storyteller pantomines staring at
the fish, then once the suspense has built, starts making fish motions with
his mouth]."

We can see several ways to classify group-stereotype jokes and their subset
ethnic jokes.

1)  Complimentary, disparaging, or multi-group contrasting?

2)  Specific to the group being caricatured, or generic?  (The GTO story only
works with people looked down on in Ohio.  The fish joke is difficiult to
tell without an Asian, but the second character can be from any group thought
of as dumb.)

3) Type of joke.  The most commonly encountered types of group-stereotypes
used are:
  - stingy (e.g. Scottish jokes in English)
  - dumb (the Aggie above - many groups, e.g. blondes, can be used)
  - hick (not dumb but uncouth, uncultured, backwoods) e.g. "the groom is the
one in the clean T-shirt"

There are other types.  Greeks, for example, get bend-over jokes.

Polish jokes belong in two of the above categories, namely "dumb" and "hick".
 Consider  T-shirts.  The one about the groom is a "hick" joke, but the
T-shirt (you used to be able to buy them) with the upside-down Polish flag on
it was a "dumb" joke.

It is left as an exercise for the reader to classify the following:  At his
farewell party, a departing tennis-playing Pole was presented by his
ex-coworkers with a "Polish guitar", which was, of course, a tennis racket.

To conclude with a true story:  a Polish co-worker (not the tennis player)
reported to our office that he had put a "THANK GOD I'M POLISH" bumper
sticker on his car, and his WASP neighbor, watching, stood there confused.
It seems the WASP, deprived of the clue of upper- and lower-case letters, had
mentally rhymed "POLISH" with "demolish".

      - Jim Landau

While the bottom of the infamous Polish beer can reads "Open other end", the
good people of Chelm reason that if the end-user cannot tell from the writing
on the side of the can which end is up, no amount of writing on the bottom of
the can will help, and therefore Chelmisher beer cans have pop tops on both
ends.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 25 19:10:40 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 15:10:40 EDT
Subject: Off Off Topic
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.151040.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/25/02 1:57:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes:

> On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, James A. Landau wrote:
>
>  >Seriously, this is the second time in two days that you have used the
>  >expression "our bad" or "my bad".  I don't recall ever having heard this
>  >expression before.
>
>  Where have you been HIDING? Or who have you been hanging with? I have been
>  hearing it and occasionally using it for at least 10-12 years, I think.

Where have I been hiding?  Obvious not in the BAD lands.

         - Jim Landau


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 25 19:33:40 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 15:33:40 -0400
Subject: Off Off Topic
In-Reply-To: <76.1e42ae0d.2a4a083e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.153340.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Long-standing sports talk (by a player who has just goofed).


dInIs



>In a message dated 6/25/02 1:43:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
>>  oopsie.  our bad.  at least they weren't pornographic.
>
>which is fine, because I don't have a pornograph.
>
>Seriously, this is the second time in two days that you have used the
>expression "our bad" or "my bad".  I don't recall ever having heard this
>expression before.
>
>       - Jim Landau

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 25 19:44:06 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 15:44:06 -0400
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20020625143226.00b95110@mail.oberlin.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.154406.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

True enough, especially in AAVE, but, interestingly, it is more often
stops which devoiced (and deleted), and it is well-documented; W does
this with continuants.

dInIs

>It appears to me that many southerners, black and white, and many young
>people here in the midwest, unvoice all final consonants while keeping the
>variation in vowel length determined by the voicing, whence the vowel
>length becomes phonemic. My ear is not very good so I am not sure, and
>maybe some of it is only partial unvoicing.  In my church choir here in
>Oberlin, when we are reminded of diction, we pronounce the final "t" with a
>clear release in words such as "want", but also in "God" and "Lord" I hear
>some choir members pronouncing the final consonant as a released "t".  One
>(young) member said that in her former choir in Florida she was explicitly
>told not to pronounce it as a released "d" and our {young} choir director
>from Illinois agreed that it sounded bad.  Or should I say bat.
>
>I would be curious to know if trained linguists have detected this.
>
>--Charles Wells
>
>>He just didn't pay attention in phonics class and has extended terminal
>>voicelessness to all words ending with sibilance.  "It's spelled with an -s
>>and people oughta say it with an -s !!"
>>DMLance
>>
>>on 6/25/02 11:42 AM, Dennis R. Preston at preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU wrote:
>>
>>>  And how can any of this account for the fact that W has got no final
>>>  voiced continuants - plurals (e.g., reaches), possessives (e.g., Bin
>>>  Laden's), 3rd person indicatives (e.g., begs) or plain old
>>>  monomorphemes (e.g., badge). Just listen.
>>>
>>>  dInIs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>  On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Dale Coye wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  #I think I commented a few years ago that Joseph is going the other
>way-- it
>>>>  #was always /z/ in the old days, but many young people here in NJ and I've
>>>>  #heard it from Californians too, now have /s/.   I think
>>>>Jerusalem may have
>>>>  #been /z/ too according to some older dictionaries (100 years ago).
>>>>
>>>>  I've heard Jeru/z/alem for a long time; I guess I'm used to it as an
>>>>  alternate. Like Roly, I've noticed Ka/Z/mir appearing more often in the
>>>>  news reports in recent... hm, months but the past several years as well,
>>>>  ISTM.
>>>>
>>>>  However, I noticed /Z/ many decades ago, if memory serves, in the
>>>>  eponymous "cashmere" -- maybe even in my grandmother's speech (b. NYC
>>>>  approx. 1889) -- and remarked on it to myself.
>>>>
>>>>  #        I also reported in an AS article a while back on a very
>complicated
>>>>  #regional pattern for 'houses'--the noun plural, which can show either
>>/s/ or
>>>>  #/z/ for both final and medial fricative all over the US.
>>>>
>>>>  How does the distribution of the final /s/ in this plural compare with
>>>>  general final plural /s/?
>>>>
>>>>  -- Mark A. Mandel
>>>>  Linguist at Large
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  Dennis R. Preston
>>>  Department of Linguistics and Languages
>>>  Michigan State University
>>>  East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
>>>  preston at pilot.msu.edu
>>>  Office: (517)353-0740
>>>  Fax: (517)432-2736
>>>
>
>
>
>Charles Wells
>professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
>personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
>genealogical website:
>http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
>NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From Heaberlin at SWT.EDU  Tue Jun 25 06:12:58 2002
From: Heaberlin at SWT.EDU (Dickie Maurice Heaberlin)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:12:58 +0800
Subject: my bad
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.141258.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The interesting thing is that on the basketball courts where I play three
times a week, I seldom hear "my bad" any more. I wonder if it is dying out
already. I heard it commonly and started saying it back in the 80s and until
recently. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'll probably say it tomorrow.

Dickie Heaberlin
San Marcos, Texas


From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU  Wed Jun 26 01:02:53 2002
From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 20:02:53 -0500
Subject: intervocalic voicing of fricatives
In-Reply-To: <p0432040ab93e6a7932fa@[130.132.245.190]>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.200253.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 6/25/02 1:45 PM, Laurence Horn at laurence.horn at YALE.EDU wrote:

> At 1:29 PM -0500 6/25/02, Donald M Lance wrote:
>> on 6/25/02 12:49 PM, James A. Landau at JJJRLandau at AOL.COM wrote:
>>
>>> In a message dated 6/25/02 8:43:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>>> charles at FREUDE.COM writes:
>>>
>>>> My observation is that in the USA the [second] s in "San Jose" is
>>> essentially always
>>>> voiced, and the s in "El Paso" and names containing "mesa" is never voiced.
>>>> This is probably not related to the placement of the stress, as your
>>>> examples indicate.
>>>
>>> I have a suggestion specific to "Jose/".  In English there are very few
>>> common words that have /os/ (that's supposed to be a long "o" as in "home").
>>> The only ones that come to mind are "gross", "close" (adjective only, the
>>> verb is /kloz/), and "dosido".  "Explosive" (and the phonetician's variant
>>> "plosive") can have either /s/ or /z/.  On the other hand, for /oz/ there is
>>> "bows", "blows", "cozy", "closing", "crows", and so on alphabetically.  Do
>>> you find it surpri/z/ing that "Jose" gets a /z/?
>>>
>> Verner's Law 'mesa' and 'jose' have different stress patterns.  Press W's
>> phonology doesn't follow the penultimate sentence.
>>
>> But Verner's Law doesn't explain the Jeruzalem items in the original query.
>> Some lexicalization involved too.
>>
> Right, but it should be noted that there are MANY speakers who have
> always said "Jo[z]e" but have never said "Jeru[z]alem", so I think
> the stress difference is relevant here for a lot of us (e.g. me).
>
> larry
>
If I use four syllables, it's Je ru sa lem, but if three it's Je ruz lem.

DMLance


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 26 03:22:57 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:22:57 EDT
Subject: Reindeer Hot Dogs & moosecellaneous from Alaska
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.232257.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Anchorage, Alaska...."Moosecellaneous" is from a sign here.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
REINDEER HOT DOGS

ALASKAN REINDEER HOT DOGS & SAUSAGE--a stand near city hall, on 4th Avenue.

TIA'S GOURMET HOT DOGS & SAUSAGE--the stand across the street, which serves:
Hot Dog (kosher)  $3.50
Reindeer              $3.50
Hot Louisiana       $3.50
German Bratwurst $3.50
All Beer Kosher
(The "kosher" is for those Alaskan people from, well, "Jew-know"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
SALAD AND PASTA "PAWS"

   "Salad paws" are popular here.
   http://www.greatnorthernproducts.com sells Great Northern Grizzly Paws,
"great for salad making."  It also sells Moose Mixers, and "9 our of 10 moose
highly recommend Moose Mixers for salad and pasta tossing."
   http://www.alaskagift.com sells Big Dippers (made in Taiwan).
   http://www.lasertechalaska.com sells Grizzlies Salad & Pasta Hands.
   http://www.theulufactory.com sells Alaska Grabbers.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
ULU

   Sold everywhere.  "Alaska ulu knife, historic knife of the Arctic" is the
large display by http://www.ulu.com (made in China).  It's Great Northern
Cutlery Co, 1-800-644-1184.  Does OED have "ulu"?  DARE?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
BEAR CLAWS, MOOSE TRACKS, CARAMEL CARIBOU, HUCKLEBERRY HEAVEN

   The Solstice Cafe offers these items.  I was told that they're sold by
Denali Ice Cream, owned by the Cascade Ice Cream Company of Oregon.  I don't
have a web site.
   Many of these items are made by Alaska Jack (http://www.alaskajack.com):

GRIZZLY BEAR CLAW--caramel and almonds covered in milk chocolate.
MOOSE NUGGETS--peanut butter filled pretzels covered in chocolate & toasted
coconut.
POLAR CLUB PAWS--caramel and almonds covered in white chocolate.
POLAR BEAR SMOOCH--two types of chocolate kissed by peppermint.
POLAR PUCKERS--crunchy lemon bits and white chocolate drenched in dark
chocolate.
POLAR POPPERS--carameled popcorn covered in rich milk chocolate.
MOOSE CRUNCH--jumbo milk chocolate covered malt balls.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
DROPPINGS=CHOCOLATE

   Many other companies have gone the "droppings=chocolate" way.
   These are from Best Gourmet Products, North Vancouver BC (although the
products declare themselves as Alaskan):

MOOSE GREETINGS--chocolate covered almonds.
BEAR HUGS--chocolate buds.
EAGLE DROPPINGS--chocolate covered peanuts.
WOLF DROPPINGS--chocolate covered buds.
MOOSE NUTS
honey roasted peanuts.
ALASKA MOSQUITO EGGS--bubble gum.
ALASKA SALMON EGGS--bubble gum balls.

   From The Chocolate Moose. Fairplay, CO:
CHOCOLATE BEAR POO--chocolate peanut clusters.
FISH EGGS--yogurt covered raisins.
CHOCOLATE MOOSE DROPPINGS--chocolate coated almonds.

   From other companies:
ALASKAN GOURMET MOOSE DROPPINGS--toffee and caramel.
BULL MOOSE EGGS--bubble gum.
GLACIER POPCORN--fresh salted popcorn coated in white chocolate.

   Non-food gift items for someone you just love:
ALASKA MOOSE NUGGET LIP CHAP
PET "MOOSE" NUGGET
"A GENUINE ALASKAN FLOATER" FOR THE NATURAL SPORTSPERSON
TUNDRA TURDS

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BAKED ALASKA, ESKIMO PIE, ESKIMO ICE CREAM

   Baked Alaska and Eskimo Pie have been documented before.  Neither is from
Alaska.
   "Eskimo ice cream," I was told, is whale or seal blubber with berries.
(I'll pass.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
GRAND SLAM BREAKFAST

   The Solstice Cafe's "Grand Slam" breakfast is:

pancakes, eggs, bacon or reindeer sausages with choice of toast.

(Hey!  Enough with the reindeer!--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MOOSECELLANEOUS

ALSKA BEAR APPROVED WILDERNESS MIX
ALASKA EAGLE APPROVED MUNCHIE MIX
MOUNT McKINLEY--served at the Hilton and perhaps no where else, I was told.
A three-layer ice cream cake.
PACIFIC CLUB--the club sandwich at the Hilton.  Looks like any other club
sandwich.
KACHEMAK BAYWICH--breaded Alaskan halibut with caper aioli served on a
toasted rosemary bread.  (This "BAYWICH" is served at the Hilton's Hooper Bay
Cafe--ed.)

Gotta go!


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 26 11:39:00 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 07:39:00 EDT
Subject: Reindeer Hot Dogs & moosecellaneous from Alaska
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.073900.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Something that even the sane fear
Is that Santa won't want to remain here
     But he puts on his fez
     When Mrs. Claus says
"I think it's going to rain, dear."


       - James A. Landau


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Wed Jun 26 15:00:10 2002
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:00:10 -0400
Subject: router
In-Reply-To: <000d01c21c0c$58206ae0$0300a8c0@HPN5290>
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.110010.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Publishers still routinely use routing slips too. (rowting) You have to
circulate various passes of everything from front and back matter to covers
to full manuscripts. It's a convenient way to tell who has looked at, and
signed off on, a given pass.

Wendalyn Nichols

At 10:51 PM 6/24/02 -0700, Dave Wilton wrote:
> > Another angle and a possible precursor concerns army use in the
> > signals corps. A correspondent on my Aus language email list offers
> > the following:
> >
> > As an Army signaller my experience of the word pre-dates
> > modern computers.
> > In the days of torn tape relay messaging, there were alpha
> > numeric codes
> > which were called routing (pron rowting) indicators. That was
> > when it was
> > done handraulically.
>
>Back in my US Army days (late 80s) we had routing slips (also pron rowting),
>yellow pieces of paper that were stapled to the covers of documents that
>indicated which offices/persons should see the document and in which order.
>Of course we could have just used a photocopier, but I guess some traditions
>die hard. Saved a lot of trees though.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 26 16:42:03 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:42:03 EDT
Subject: Alaska Glossary
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.124203.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings.  It appears that I'm still in Anchorage, but that'll change in
a few minutes.
   Check out www.madeinalaska.org.  If you want me to bring something home,
like Moose Droppings or a Moose Mixer, tell me now.
   The State Library is FIVE MILES out of town!  I don't have time to go.
The Library of Congress microfilms newspapers from at least two of each
state's biggest cities.  Alaska wasn't a state in the 1800s, but I'll try to
do the work at the LOC, including researching  Menzies' Journals.
   LIFE'S A FISH AND THEN YOU FRY: AN ALASKA SEAFOOD COOKBOOK (2002) by Randy
Bayliss I'll get to later when I have time.
   HOW TO SPEAK ALASKAN (1993) is still sold here.  I bought it two weeks ago
on Amazon's Bookfinder or Bibliofind, and the shipping cost was almost as
much as the book.  And it didn't arrive in two weeks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
MY FIRST POCKET GUIDE
ALASKA
by Carole Marsh
Gallopade International, www.thealaskaexperience.com
96 pages, paperback, $6.95
2001

Pg. 94:
      ALASKA GLOSSARY

bear paws:  stubby, rounded snowshoes
bunny boots:  white, insulated boots for below-zero temperatures
cabin fever:  what folks get when they've been in cold, damp, cramped
quarters too long!
Chilkat blankets:  beautiful ceremonial blankets worn by Tlingit Indians
Dyea, Glacier, Hyder:  boom towns, now ghost towns
fjords:  naroow sea inlet bordered by steep cliffs
kayak:  watertight Eskimo skin boat
masks:  ceremonial masks made and worn by Alaska's Eskimos, Aleuts, and
Indians
mukluks:  soft Eskimo boots made of animal skin and fur
muskeg:  grassy bog or swamp land
Outside:  where all other Americans live, also Lower 48
panhandle:  southeast Alaska
parka:  one-piece, hooded pullover coat made of caribou hide and wolf and
wolverine furs
sundog:  optical illusion, one or two colorful circles around the sun


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Jun 26 21:29:13 2002
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 16:29:13 -0500
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <32.28f5640d.2a4b48db@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.162913.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was going through my Chicago Tribune this morning when I opened up a two
page spread for an IBM ThinkPad ad. My eyes passed over the text on the
left and moved to the person sitting just to the right of center, amid
shelves with lots of books. My first thought was, "Gee, he looks
familiar!", but assumed I had seen the ad before, or at least the model.
Then I looked back at the text on the left (since my glimpse of it
suggested there was a pronunciation and/or a definition embedded in it).
Imagine my surprise! The quote was from Jesse Sheidlower! This is the first
time I have ever seen someone in an ad I actually knew!

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Jun 26 21:44:18 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:44:18 -0400
Subject: Query: Dialect Ten
In-Reply-To: <NFBBJGBONPELCEAMOPOHOEMOCMAA.mmarietta@garygroup.com>
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.174418.0400.>

Please respond to the original sender as well as the list, not just to me.

------ Forwarded Message
From: "Michele Marietta" <mmarietta at garygroup.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:36:38 -0700
Subject: dialect ten

hi there.
have you heard of this?
do you know where it's from - which region of the US?
I'm curious and haven't found a thing about it on the internet.
cheers.
michele

*******************
Michele Marietta
Media Account Executive
The Gary Group
P 310.449.7607
F 310.264.9744



------ End of Forwarded Message


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Jun 26 23:17:30 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:17:30 -0400
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <v04011702b93fe1664e18@[128.135.231.204]>
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.191730.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 04:29:13PM -0500, Barbara Need wrote:
> I was going through my Chicago Tribune this morning when I opened up a two
> page spread for an IBM ThinkPad ad. My eyes passed over the text on the
> left and moved to the person sitting just to the right of center, amid
> shelves with lots of books. My first thought was, "Gee, he looks
> familiar!", but assumed I had seen the ad before, or at least the model.
> Then I looked back at the text on the left (since my glimpse of it
> suggested there was a pronunciation and/or a definition embedded in it).
> Imagine my surprise! The quote was from Jesse Sheidlower! This is the first
> time I have ever seen someone in an ad I actually knew!

Heh. Yeah, it was a little unexpected. And I didn't have much to do with
the choice of word, or its definition (though I did insist on IPA instead
of "HAL-see-un"). But it was very nice for OED, and nice for me both in
terms of publicity and because I got to keep the computer. Which, by the
way, was _not_ running Windows, as the ad suggested, but FreeBSD.

Thanks for the note.

Best,

Jesse


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 27 02:38:04 2002
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 22:38:04 EDT
Subject: IBM ad
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.223804.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yeah--two-page spread in today's NY Times too--a great shot.   But!   the
most common US pronunciation of halcyon is missing--   /'hael si an/--  All
three-syllable words with first syllable stress from the Greek ending in -on
have changed from
/- at n/ to /-an/ for most Americans (paragon,  Marathon (the small town near
Cortland, NY is still /- at n/ for my father), Pantheon, Babylon, Amazon,
Myrmidon, Xenophon, -- and my research shows that the same thing is now
happening in the UK as well, though they hung onto schwa for longer.   The
interesting thing is that Bible names maintain the schwa-- Solomon, Simeon,
Gideon,  except for Lebanon (though Lebanon, NY in Madison Co. again shows
schwa for older speakers).

Dale Coye
The College of NJ

In a message dated 06/26/2002 5:30:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes:


> I was going through my Chicago Tribune this morning when I opened up a two
> page spread for an IBM ThinkPad ad. My eyes passed over the text on the
> left and moved to the person sitting just to the right of center, amid
> shelves with lots of books. My first thought was, "Gee, he looks
> familiar!", but assumed I had seen the ad before, or at least the model.
> Then I looked back at the text on the left (since my glimpse of it
> suggested there was a pronunciation and/or a definition embedded in it).
> Imagine my surprise! The quote was from Jesse Sheidlower! This is the first
> time I have ever seen someone in an ad I actually knew!
>
> Barbara Need
> UChicago--Linguistics
>


From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG  Thu Jun 27 02:53:17 2002
From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 22:53:17 -0400
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <10.20e64d28.2a4bd48c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.225317.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 6/26/2002 22:38, Dale Coye wrote the following:

>Bible names maintain the schwa-- Solomon, Simeon, Gideon,  except for
>Lebanon (though Lebanon, NY in Madison Co. again shows schwa for older
>speakers).

FWIW, Mt. Lebanon, PA is pronounced ['lEb at nIn] or ['lEb at n@n] by the
natives.  Anything else marks you as an out-of-towner.  The country of
Lebanon is pronounced canonically, as ['lEb at nan].

Cheers,
Scott

_____________________________________________________________
Scott Sadowsky  --  Spanish-English / English-Spanish Translator

sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org ? sadowsky at bigfoot.com
http://www.spanishtranslator.org
_____________________________________________________________
"Nunca me he sentido mejor sujeto que cuando he predicado."
   -- Les Luthiers


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun 27 02:55:33 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 22:55:33 -0400
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <10.20e64d28.2a4bd48c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.225533.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 10:38:04PM -0400, Dale Coye wrote:
> Yeah--two-page spread in today's NY Times too--a great shot.   But!   the
> most common US pronunciation of halcyon is missing--   /'hael si an/--

I think they just took the OED pronunciation, and I had a hard enough
time getting them to use IPA so I didn't complain.

Jesse Sheidlower


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Thu Jun 27 03:08:08 2002
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 23:08:08 -0400
Subject: Seeking two words
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.230808.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

First, Most cultures have some kind of celebration of the solstice and
the equinox. They are well known. But most cultures also have somewhat
less important holidays at the mid-point between each -- Feb 1st or 2nd,
May 1st, August 1st (Lughnasa or Lammas, first fruits, for those of you
who don't celebrate that a whole lot) and Nov 1st. What are these called?
Cross-calender holidays comes to mind, but I don't think that is right.

Second, (and I may have asked this before, but got no replies) there is a
technical term for knuckle walking, as apes do. Anyone know what it is. I
have looked under all the appropriate and accessible Latin and Greek
words.

D


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 27 04:16:41 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 00:16:41 -0400
Subject: 200 words for snow; Alaska Place Names
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.001641.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Denali.  Congrats to Jesse for the ad.  Me, I'm still cursing out my broker for getting me to buy Worldcom.

--------------------------------------------------------------
200 WORDS FOR SNOW

   I visited Wasilla, AK, the home of the Iditarod.  In the video BEYOND COURAGE, someone said that there are "200 words for snow."  If you want more on the video, it's iditarod at iditarod.com.  You can tell them how many words there are for wrong.

---------------------------------------------------------------
ALASKA PLACE NAMES

   I was asked about this.  I was shown (at the visitors bureau) the 1967 book by Don Orth, and there have been minor revisions in 1971.  On the cover was a note to call 562-6277 for a book DICTIONARY OF AK PLACE NAMES.  I don't know if this is the same book or not.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Thu Jun 27 04:23:22 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 21:23:22 -0700
Subject: halcyon
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.212322.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dale,
        I think the alternating stress rule is responsible for the
tertiary stress on Amazon, etc., which requires an /a/, as /@/ is likely
to occur only under weak stress. <halcyon> is the only one of those you
cite which is an adjective rather than a noun, so it would not surprise me
that the stress pattern might be different (cf. verbs vs adjectives ending
in -ate), as it is for me, since I have weakly-stressed /@n/ in the last
syllable. However, cross-class "infection" does occur, which is evidently
what you are attesting to.

        Rudy

Hoping to see Jesse in Newsweek. (Incidentally, what's FreeSBD?)


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 27 04:58:16 2002
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 21:58:16 -0700
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <10.20e64d28.2a4bd48c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.215816.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... But!   the
>most common US pronunciation of halcyon is missing--   /'hael si an/--  All
>three-syllable words with first syllable stress from the Greek
>ending in -on...

That didn't bother me nearly as much as the sh (can't make the long s
so you could all see it) in the pron variant.  I did see it in the
Oxford Shorter, but then there was the option of a schwa plus n or
syllabic n, not -i schwa n as in the ad.

Rima


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Jun 27 05:49:45 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 01:49:45 -0400
Subject: Seeking two words
In-Reply-To: <20020626.230828.-105935.23.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.014945.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>First, Most cultures have some kind of celebration of the solstice and the
>equinox. They are well known. But most cultures also have somewhat less
>important holidays at the mid-point between each ... What are these called?

Sometimes these are called cross-quarter days.

>Second, ... there is a technical term for knuckle walking, as apes do.

Plantigrade/palmigrade = walking on the sole/palm, digitigrade = walking on
the finger(s), unguligrade = walking on the fingernail(s) [e.g., hooves],
taligrade = walking on the side of the foot, dorsigrade = walking on the
back (dorsum) of the foot/toes. These are all adjectives. I suppose a
gorilla's knuckle-walking is a partly dorsigrade gait (I think with the
forelimbs dorsigrade and the hindlimbs plantigrade?). I can't find anything
else right away.

-- Doug Wilson


From charles at FREUDE.COM  Thu Jun 27 11:37:06 2002
From: charles at FREUDE.COM (Charles Wells)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:37:06 -0400
Subject: Seeking two words
In-Reply-To: <20020626.230828.-105935.23.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.073706.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the Christian calendar, November 1 is All Saints Day (All Hallows Day)
and is historically the origin of Halloween (All Hallows Eve).  The church
fathers probably chose it because it was the time of a pagan celebration,
as they did the date of Christmas.  (I am not saying it was a bad thing to
do that.)  All Saints Day is a day of obligation for Catholics.

--Charles Wells

>First, Most cultures have some kind of celebration of the solstice and
>the equinox. They are well known. But most cultures also have somewhat
>less important holidays at the mid-point between each -- Feb 1st or 2nd,
>May 1st, August 1st (Lughnasa or Lammas, first fruits, for those of you
>who don't celebrate that a whole lot) and Nov 1st. What are these called?
>Cross-calender holidays comes to mind, but I don't think that is right.
>
>Second, (and I may have asked this before, but got no replies) there is a
>technical term for knuckle walking, as apes do. Anyone know what it is. I
>have looked under all the appropriate and accessible Latin and Greek
>words.
>
>D



Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
personal website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/index.html
genealogical website:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/e/l/Charles-Wells/
NE Ohio Sacred Harp website: http://www.oberlin.net/~cwells/sh.htm


From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Thu Jun 27 11:51:47 2002
From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:51:47 -0400
Subject: Seeking two words
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.075147.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I found:

"Cross-Quartered Days" at
http://www.louisville.edu/~aoclar01/ancient/astronomy/sun.htm

"cross-quarters" from http://www.paganspath.com/magik/norse/wheel.htm

"cross-quarters" also at
http://www.paganlibrary.com/introductory/modern_paganism.php


http://druidry.org/obod/druid-path/eight-foldyear.html implies in
context that they should be called "lunar observances", but doesn't
state this outright (imho and beside the point, 'lunar' would be the
wrong thing to call these days since their timing is still governed by
solar procession).



Duane Campbell wrote:
>
> First, Most cultures have some kind of celebration of the solstice and
> the equinox. They are well known. But most cultures also have somewhat
> less important holidays at the mid-point between each -- Feb 1st or 2nd,
> May 1st, August 1st (Lughnasa or Lammas, first fruits, for those of you
> who don't celebrate that a whole lot) and Nov 1st. What are these called?
> Cross-calender holidays comes to mind, but I don't think that is right.
>
> Second, (and I may have asked this before, but got no replies) there is a
> technical term for knuckle walking, as apes do. Anyone know what it is. I
> have looked under all the appropriate and accessible Latin and Greek
> words.
>
> D

--
 .............................................
.          D r e w  D a n i e l s o n         .
.          <andrew.danielson at cmu.edu>         .
. Admin for Krogh, Gabriel, Fedder & Rajkumar .
. Carnegie Mellon University ? ECE Department .
. 5000 Forbes Avenue  ?  Pittsburgh, PA 15213 .
. +1 412 268-2188 Voice ? +1 412 268-3890 Fax .
.        http://pcdrew.ece.cmu.edu/           .
 .............................................
 To be matter of fact about the world is to
 blunder into fantasy -- and dull fantasy at
 that, as the real world is strange and
 wonderful.             -- Robert A. Heinlein


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun 27 12:57:52 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 08:57:52 -0400
Subject: halcyon
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0206262114520.9736-100000@ptah.u.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.085752.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Hoping to see Jesse in Newsweek. (Incidentally, what's FreeSBD?)

The ad was in Newsweek a month or so ago.

FreeBSD is a variant of the Unix operating system. See
http://www.freebsd.org for more info. It's great.

Jesse


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 27 10:24:56 2002
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 03:24:56 -0700
Subject: Query: British Linguistics Projects
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.032456.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I will teach a course in the Advanced Studies in England program in
Bath next summer and am looking for interesting linguistics studies
(suggested project topics) students can do related to Bath and the
surrounding areas, suitable for a five-week course. I want students
to closely observe British language characteristics and usage during
their time in England. I would appreciate any suggestions offered.

Thanks,
Margaret Lee

=====
Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Associate Professor - English and Linguistics
 & University Editor
Department of English
Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
(757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home)
e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu   or   mlee303 at yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST  Thu Jun 27 14:09:21 2002
From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:09:21 +0200
Subject: Seeking two words
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.160921.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In old Scandinavia the Disting was a "thing" named after "disablot", a fertility offering to the viking's "dis"-es or fylgias at the beginning of Spring. Later, it became a market feast around Candlemas, in some places held up to the last century, and at Uppsala even today.
The Walpurgis feast on April 30 is well known in northern Europe.
The Olofsmas on July 29 represented the end of an agricultural year (harvest) and the beginning of a new.

I cannot recall seeing a term for knuckle-walking. There is "dactylograde" for toe-walking. Maybe "phalangograde" could be a word?

Jan Ivarsson, TransEdit
Translator, Subtitler
jan.ivarsson at transedit.st


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Jun 27 14:18:44 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:18:44 -0400
Subject: Query: Dialect Ten
In-Reply-To: <B93FADF2.5127%gbarrett@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.101844.0400.>

On 6/26/02 17:44, "Grant Barrett" <gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG> wrote:

> Please respond to the original sender as well as the list, not just to me.
>
> ------ Forwarded Message
> From: "Michele Marietta" <mmarietta at garygroup.com>
> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:36:38 -0700
> Subject: dialect ten
>
> hi there.
> have you heard of this?
> do you know where it's from - which region of the US?
> I'm curious and haven't found a thing about it on the internet.

She followed up with this, which explains what "dialect ten" is supposed to
describe:

i'm taking a linguistics class at my university and we were presented with a
sentence:

"mark's shirt needs ironed."

we all thought it was rubbish, but the instructor assured us that it was
indeed a dialect, dialect ten, and that
he'd grown up in the area of the US where that was considered a fine
sentence.  however, he didn't tell us
where dialect ten was from.




--

Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
http://www.worldnewyork.org/


From pkurtz at HEIDELBERG.EDU  Thu Jun 27 14:28:53 2002
From: pkurtz at HEIDELBERG.EDU (Patti Kurtz)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:28:53 -0400
Subject: Query: Dialect Ten
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.102853.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm not sure if this helps, but I'm from the Pittsburgh area originally, and
that's a well formed sentence in my dialect (I say things like that all the
time, even though I took grief about it in college).

I've never heard it called "dialect 10" though.  Wonder what dialect 1 would
be then?

Patti Kurtz
English Department
Heidelberg College
Tiffin, Ohio

-----Original Message-----
From: Grant Barrett <gbarrett at worldnewyork.org>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 27, 2002 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: Query: Dialect Ten


>On 6/26/02 17:44, "Grant Barrett" <gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG> wrote:
>
>> Please respond to the original sender as well as the list, not just to
me.
>>
>> ------ Forwarded Message
>> From: "Michele Marietta" <mmarietta at garygroup.com>
>> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:36:38 -0700
>> Subject: dialect ten
>>
>> hi there.
>> have you heard of this?
>> do you know where it's from - which region of the US?
>> I'm curious and haven't found a thing about it on the internet.
>
>She followed up with this, which explains what "dialect ten" is supposed to
>describe:
>
>i'm taking a linguistics class at my university and we were presented with
a
>sentence:
>
>"mark's shirt needs ironed."
>
>we all thought it was rubbish, but the instructor assured us that it was
>indeed a dialect, dialect ten, and that
>he'd grown up in the area of the US where that was considered a fine
>sentence.  however, he didn't tell us
>where dialect ten was from.
>
>
>
>
>--
>
>Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
>gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
>http://www.worldnewyork.org/
>


From bj4 at ANDREW.CMU.EDU  Thu Jun 27 15:02:18 2002
From: bj4 at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Barbara Johnstone)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:02:18 -0400
Subject: new website about Pittsburgh speech
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.110218.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here is a new resource for students and members of the general public
interested in the speech of the Pittsburgh area.  The information on this
website is based on research by Barbara Johnstone, Professor of Linguistics
and Rhetoric at Carnegie Mellon University, and Scott F. Kiesling,
Assistant Professor of Linguistics at the University of Pittsburgh.
Johnstone and Kiesling are sociolinguists who are studying the speech of
the Pittsburgh area. The site was designed by students at Carnegie Mellon
University.

http://english.cmu.edu/pittsburghspeech/


Hope it's useful to some of you.

Barbara



_____________________
Barbara Johnstone
Professor of Rhetoric and Linguistics
Department of English, Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh PA 15213-3890 USA

bj4 at andrew.cmu.edu
412.268.6447 office phone/voicemail, 412.268.7989 fax
http://english.cmu.edu/people/faculty/homepages/johnstone/default.html


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Jun 27 15:20:21 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:20:21 -0400
Subject: Query: Dialect Ten
In-Reply-To: <002601c21de6$f7fe0aa0$a46e8b8d@PattiKurtz>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.112021.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Need+past participle is indeed much more widespread than Pittsburgh
(see recent articles by Frazer, Murray, and Simon in AS, but the
mystery of "Dialect Ten" is easily solved if you look at the back of
any ADS t-shirt (and consult the handout which accompanied it for the
reference).

dInIs





>I'm not sure if this helps, but I'm from the Pittsburgh area originally, and
>that's a well formed sentence in my dialect (I say things like that all the
>time, even though I took grief about it in college).
>
>I've never heard it called "dialect 10" though.  Wonder what dialect 1 would
>be then?
>
>Patti Kurtz
>English Department
>Heidelberg College
>Tiffin, Ohio
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Grant Barrett <gbarrett at worldnewyork.org>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Date: Thursday, June 27, 2002 10:18 AM
>Subject: Re: Query: Dialect Ten
>
>
>>On 6/26/02 17:44, "Grant Barrett" <gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG> wrote:
>>
>>>  Please respond to the original sender as well as the list, not just to
>me.
>>>
>>>  ------ Forwarded Message
>>>  From: "Michele Marietta" <mmarietta at garygroup.com>
>>>  Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:36:38 -0700
>>>  Subject: dialect ten
>>>
>>>  hi there.
>>>  have you heard of this?
>>>  do you know where it's from - which region of the US?
>>>  I'm curious and haven't found a thing about it on the internet.
>>
>>She followed up with this, which explains what "dialect ten" is supposed to
>>describe:
>>
>>i'm taking a linguistics class at my university and we were presented with
>a
>>sentence:
>>
>>"mark's shirt needs ironed."
>>
>>we all thought it was rubbish, but the instructor assured us that it was
>>indeed a dialect, dialect ten, and that
>>he'd grown up in the area of the US where that was considered a fine
>>sentence.  however, he didn't tell us
>>where dialect ten was from.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
>>gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
>>http://www.worldnewyork.org/
>>

--
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Jun 27 15:41:28 2002
From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:41:28 -0500
Subject: Query: Dialect Ten
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b940dcff9ac2@[35.10.92.197]>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.104128.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInis,

Thanks for the plug.

DMLance

on 6/27/02 10:20 AM, Dennis R. Preston at preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU wrote:

> Need+past participle is indeed much more widespread than Pittsburgh
> (see recent articles by Frazer, Murray, and Simon in AS, but the
> mystery of "Dialect Ten" is easily solved if you look at the back of
> any ADS t-shirt (and consult the handout which accompanied it for the
> reference).
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
>
>
>> I'm not sure if this helps, but I'm from the Pittsburgh area originally, and
>> that's a well formed sentence in my dialect (I say things like that all the
>> time, even though I took grief about it in college).
>>
>> I've never heard it called "dialect 10" though.  Wonder what dialect 1 would
>> be then?
>>
>> Patti Kurtz
>> English Department
>> Heidelberg College
>> Tiffin, Ohio
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Grant Barrett <gbarrett at worldnewyork.org>
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Date: Thursday, June 27, 2002 10:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: Query: Dialect Ten
>>
>>
>>> On 6/26/02 17:44, "Grant Barrett" <gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Please respond to the original sender as well as the list, not just to
>> me.
>>>>
>>>> ------ Forwarded Message
>>>> From: "Michele Marietta" <mmarietta at garygroup.com>
>>>> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:36:38 -0700
>>>> Subject: dialect ten
>>>>
>>>> hi there.
>>>> have you heard of this?
>>>> do you know where it's from - which region of the US?
>>>> I'm curious and haven't found a thing about it on the internet.
>>>
>>> She followed up with this, which explains what "dialect ten" is supposed to
>>> describe:
>>>
>>> i'm taking a linguistics class at my university and we were presented with
>> a
>>> sentence:
>>>
>>> "mark's shirt needs ironed."
>>>
>>> we all thought it was rubbish, but the instructor assured us that it was
>>> indeed a dialect, dialect ten, and that
>>> he'd grown up in the area of the US where that was considered a fine
>>> sentence.  however, he didn't tell us
>>> where dialect ten was from.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
>>> gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
>>> http://www.worldnewyork.org/
>>>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
> preston at pilot.msu.edu
> Office: (517)353-0740
> Fax: (517)432-2736
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Jun 27 17:04:34 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:04:34 -0500
Subject: Query: Was a gold ball really thrown out to start season?
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.120434.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   This isn't from the 19th century, but maybe someone could help. The
newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_ (April 2, 1913)  mentions a gold
ball being thrown out to open  the baseball season of the Pacific
Coast League.

     What exactly is meant by a gold ball? It's not likely to have
been solid gold.
Was it just gilded a bit on the surface? There was a type of ball
called a Goldsmith, but that didn't seem to be anything special.

   So I guess the question comes down to: How much gold was there in
the gold ball that was thrown out to open the season?  Would anyone
be familiar with this custom (throwing out a gold ball)?

    Any help would be much appreciated. The relevant quote appears
right after my signoff.

Gerald Cohen

_San Francisco Bulletin_, April 2, 1913, p.17/3-5; 'Thirteen
Combination Upsets Seals'; col. 5: 'Mayor Rolph was on the job with
the first ball. "Doc" Frost, with chest expanded and his chin high in
the air walked out to the mound and presented the city's Chief
Executive with a gold ball, which his Honor promptly sent hurtling
toward the plate.  His arm was not in good shape, however, and the
gold ball crossed the batting station still a ball.  Which goes to
show that a ball is not a ball when it is a strike! But, again, the
gold ball was a ball, however, consequently and nevertheless.'


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 27 18:12:34 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:12:34 -0400
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020626224327.011a6008@199.93.70.138>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.141234.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:53 PM -0400 6/26/02, Scott Sadowsky wrote:
>On 6/26/2002 22:38, Dale Coye wrote the following:
>
>>Bible names maintain the schwa-- Solomon, Simeon, Gideon,  except for
>>Lebanon (though Lebanon, NY in Madison Co. again shows schwa for older
>>speakers).
>
>FWIW, Mt. Lebanon, PA is pronounced ['lEb at nIn] or ['lEb at n@n] by the
>natives.  Anything else marks you as an out-of-towner.  The country of
>Lebanon is pronounced canonically, as ['lEb at nan].
>

Two (and a half) questions:

(1)  Are we positive that it's a question of maintaining the schwa in
these words/names, as opposed to an [a] gradually weakening to a
schwa?

(2)a.  Is Lebanon, Indiana also pronounced with a schwa (or barred i)
locally?  I don't know if Dale's statement implies that the Indiana
town always has a full secondary-stressed [a].
      b.  Does anyone know if Americans in Lebanon (the country in the
Levant), such as the ones at the American university in Beirut
(either now, if it still exists, or back when it did, before the
unpleasantness a while back) pronounce the country's name with a
schwa?

Of course, the questions in (2) can equally be taken as asking
whether the final syllable in these town names is unstressed locally.

larry


From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Jun 27 18:25:54 2002
From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:25:54 -0500
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <p04320403b94104236440@[130.132.245.161]>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.132554.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 6/27/02 1:12 PM, Laurence Horn at laurence.horn at YALE.EDU wrote:

> At 10:53 PM -0400 6/26/02, Scott Sadowsky wrote:
>> On 6/26/2002 22:38, Dale Coye wrote the following:
>>
>>> Bible names maintain the schwa-- Solomon, Simeon, Gideon,  except for
>>> Lebanon (though Lebanon, NY in Madison Co. again shows schwa for older
>>> speakers).
>>
>> FWIW, Mt. Lebanon, PA is pronounced ['lEb at nIn] or ['lEb at n@n] by the
>> natives.  Anything else marks you as an out-of-towner.  The country of
>> Lebanon is pronounced canonically, as ['lEb at nan].
>>
>
> Two (and a half) questions:
>
> (1)  Are we positive that it's a question of maintaining the schwa in
> these words/names, as opposed to an [a] gradually weakening to a
> schwa?

Bingo!
>
> (2)a.  Is Lebanon, Indiana also pronounced with a schwa (or barred i)
> locally?  I don't know if Dale's statement implies that the Indiana
> town always has a full secondary-stressed [a].

I've heard Tennesseans say a schwa for the town in their state.  Would the
"-an speakers" maintain the "full vowel" when the name of the state follows
-- "Lebanon, Indiana"?

Or in "Lebanon is a pretty town"? as opposed to "I live in Labanon"?
Same for Oregon, Illinois.

> b.  Does anyone know if Americans in Lebanon (the country in the
> Levant), such as the ones at the American university in Beirut
> (either now, if it still exists, or back when it did, before the
> unpleasantness a while back) pronounce the country's name with a
> schwa?

As in this web site -- "Welcome to Banque du Liban"?
>
> Of course, the questions in (2) can equally be taken as asking
> whether the final syllable in these town names is unstressed locally.
>
> larry
>


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Thu Jun 27 18:35:19 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:35:19 -0700
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <p04320403b94104236440@[130.132.245.161]>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.113519.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> Two (and a half) questions:
>
> (2)a.  Is Lebanon, Indiana also pronounced with a schwa (or barred i)
> locally?  I don't know if Dale's statement implies that the Indiana
> town always has a full secondary-stressed [a].

There is also a Lebanon, Oregon, which I've heard pronounced with both a
schwa or an [a] by different, presumably native Oregonian speakers. Maybe
Peter McGraw has noticed a more recent trend one way or the other.

>       b.  Does anyone know if Americans in Lebanon (the country in the
> Levant), such as the ones at the American university in Beirut
> (either now, if it still exists, or back when it did, before the
> unpleasantness a while back) pronounce the country's name with a
> schwa?

The Americans I've met who have actually been to Lebanon (admittedly not a
large number) use the [a] not the schwa for the country name.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From mkuha at BSU.EDU  Thu Jun 27 19:33:10 2002
From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:33:10 -0500
Subject: Query: British Linguistics Projects
In-Reply-To: <20020627102456.20078.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.143310.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't have any suggestions for the specific area you mention, but Wray,
Trott, and Bloomer's 1998 book "Projects in linguistics: A practical guide
to researching language" might be a good resource for students, as it tends
to target readers in England--that is, many of the examples, explanations,
and project ideas are set in a British context.

-Mai

On 6/27/02 5:24 AM, Margaret Lee wrote:

> I will teach a course in the Advanced Studies in England program in
> Bath next summer and am looking for interesting linguistics studies
> (suggested project topics) students can do related to Bath and the
> surrounding areas, suitable for a five-week course. I want students
> to closely observe British language characteristics and usage during
> their time in England. I would appreciate any suggestions offered.
>
> Thanks,
> Margaret Lee
>
> =====
> Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor - English and Linguistics
> & University Editor
> Department of English
> Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
> (757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home)
> e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu   or   mlee303 at yahoo.com


From jpparker at ISERV.NET  Thu Jun 27 23:57:14 2002
From: jpparker at ISERV.NET (jane parker)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 19:57:14 -0400
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020626224327.011a6008@199.93.70.138>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.195714.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 6/26/02 10:53 PM, Scott Sadowsky at lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG wrote:

This is also true for Lebenon IN


> On 6/26/2002 22:38, Dale Coye wrote the following:
>
>> Bible names maintain the schwa-- Solomon, Simeon, Gideon,  except for
>> Lebanon (though Lebanon, NY in Madison Co. again shows schwa for older
>> speakers).
>
> FWIW, Mt. Lebanon, PA is pronounced ['lEb at nIn] or ['lEb at n@n] by the
> natives.  Anything else marks you as an out-of-towner.  The country of
> Lebanon is pronounced canonically, as ['lEb at nan].
>
> Cheers,
> Scott
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Scott Sadowsky  --  Spanish-English / English-Spanish Translator
>
> sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org ? sadowsky at bigfoot.com
> http://www.spanishtranslator.org
> _____________________________________________________________
> "Nunca me he sentido mejor sujeto que cuando he predicado."
> -- Les Luthiers
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 28 00:17:39 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:17:39 -0400
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <B9411E99.1DE0%jpparker@iserv.net>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.201739.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:57 PM -0400 6/27/02, jane parker wrote:
>on 6/26/02 10:53 PM, Scott Sadowsky at lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG wrote:
>
>This [I assume both stress reduction and shift to schwa] is also
>true for Lebenon IN
>
>
Aha!  Famiilarity breeds cntnt strikes again.  G K Zipf would be pleased.

Larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 28 05:41:03 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 01:41:03 -0400
Subject: World Cupdate;  Jo Jos, Buffalo Fries & more
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.014103.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greeting from just outside Denali.  Denali/Mount McKinley is always in the clouds and is hard to see.  I spent eight hours today to see a bear a football field away.  Tomorrow is a long driving day to Seward.

WORLD CUPDATE--CNN's "update" on the "World Cup" uses this.  Check the usual databases for other cites.

SKIJORING--Skiing with a dog.  Is that the correct spelling, or is it "skijouring"?

FLIGHTSEEING--Alaska probably gave birth to this, which is everywhere.  Still not in OED?

JO JO POTATOES--I just had some for dinner.  Called just "jo jos."  OED?  DARE?  Mariani?  I also saw this at the Fred Meyer superstore.

BUFFALO FRIES--Also at the Fred Meyer superstore.  Fried potatoes that are rounded, with some spices on them.

PERSHINGS, BISMARKS--Found in the bakery department of the huge Fred Meyer superstore.  DARE for Pershing?

TOURON--Another word for "tourist."  The only slang my Denali guide could come up with.

MELTWATER--This term is used all over Denali.  I haven't checked the revised OED "m."

OUTSIDE--My guide said that this is probably the biggest Alaskan word here.  "Outside"=Lower Forty Eight or elsewhere.

THROUGHPUT--Oil term for what goes through the Alaska pipeline.  I haven't yet checked OED.

TRIBEARATHON--Stretching, running, and ice cream eating competition, see www.cer.org.

"WE CHEAT THE OTHER GUY AND PASS THE SAVINGS ON TO YOU!"--Ad for Chilkoot Charlie's Rustic Alaskan Saloon, ALASKA VISITORS' GUIDE 2002, ANCHORAGE DAILY NEWS, pg. 47.  Seen also in other publications.

SQUAREBANKS--HDAS?  Same publication, pg. 101, col. 1:
   To be fair, Fairbanksans are almost as quick as Anchoragites to call their home "Squarebanks" (the Chamber of Commerce prefers "The Golden Heart City"), especially when a long winter is making it feel particularly small.

FISHWALK--Fish walk?  From pg. 109, col. 4:
   It also has a 250-foot calssic "fishwalk" along the Kenai River. Along a set of stairs to the river are information boards providing details on the river, salmon and the environment.
(www.soldotnachamber.com)

CHICKEN HALIBUT--From Pg. 113, col. 2:
   Fish weighing 100, 200, 300 pounds and more are not unusal in Resurrection and it surrounding water, and 25- to 35-pound halibut, called "chicken halibut," are common and considered by many to be best on the table.

ALASKAN GRABBERS--From Pg. 142 ad for The ULU Factory (www.theulufactory.com):
   Our salad/pasta grabbers are made of Birch and are sure to be a hit on your dinner table.

   Found at the Alpenglow Restaurant here:

KLONDIKE COFFEE--Yukon Jack, Barejager and coffee with whipped cream    $5.00

NORTH SLOPE--Peppermint Schnapps and hot chocolate with whipped cream     $4.50


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun 28 06:57:47 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 02:57:47 -0400
Subject: Query: Was a gold ball really thrown out to start season?
In-Reply-To: <p04310101b940f125f38a@[131.151.65.144]>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.025747.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>     What exactly is meant by a gold ball? It's not likely to have been
> solid gold.

At a guess it was gold in color, not in composition: presumably just a
baseball painted gold for the special occasion.

(Disclaimer: few US-ans can match my [blissful] ignorance of baseball lore.)

-- Doug Wilson


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 28 13:37:56 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 06:37:56 -0700
Subject: route : /rawt/ vs /ruwt/
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0206232123110.21376-100000@bast.u.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.063756.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've heard and used both pronunciations throughout my
life...prefer <root> myself (same as <ruwt>?), but it
is more context sensitive than an absolute rule...Ever
heard the song "..get your kicks on <root> 66"?  Just
doesn't work with <rawt> or <raewt>.

Reminds me of a friend from OK who kept refering to
men working a "tower".  It took me a while to figure
he was saying what I pronounce as <toor>, as in tour
of duty; the men were working a tour, a shift.



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 28 14:21:32 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 07:21:32 -0700
Subject: IBM ad
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020626224327.011a6008@199.93.70.138>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.072132.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And what about the pronunciation of "Lebanon baloney"?

Ed

--- Scott Sadowsky <lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG>
wrote:
> On 6/26/2002 22:38, Dale Coye wrote the following:
>
> >Bible names maintain the schwa-- Solomon, Simeon,
> Gideon,  except for
> >Lebanon (though Lebanon, NY in Madison Co. again
> shows schwa for older
> >speakers).
>
> FWIW, Mt. Lebanon, PA is pronounced ['lEb at nIn] or
> ['lEb at n@n] by the
> natives.  Anything else marks you as an
> out-of-towner.  The country of
> Lebanon is pronounced canonically, as ['lEb at nan].
>
> Cheers,
> Scott
>
>
_____________________________________________________________
> Scott Sadowsky  --  Spanish-English /
> English-Spanish Translator
>
> sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org ?
> sadowsky at bigfoot.com
> http://www.spanishtranslator.org
>
_____________________________________________________________
> "Nunca me he sentido mejor sujeto que cuando he
> predicado."
>    -- Les Luthiers


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From rachel at CAL.ORG  Fri Jun 28 14:21:42 2002
From: rachel at CAL.ORG (Rachel Lunde)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:21:42 -0400
Subject: National Museum of Language Seeks Volunteers
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.102142.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The National Museum of Language is a start-up museum based in the Washington, DC, area, dedicated to educating and informing the general public about all matters related to languages and linguistics. Its focus is on language as it relates to all aspects of life, human development, and human history.

We periodically send out a call for volunteers to help us develop several projects related to the establishment of the museum. Volunteers are needed to help us in the following areas:

Curators
Collections
Exhibits
Finances
Grant writing
Publicity
Speaker series
Young Linguists Program
Web Museum

There are many levels of involvement that may assist educators and professors in fulfilling requirements for service, while working in languages and linguistics. The museum also provides an opportunity for student volunteers to gain valuable professional experience. Language professionals or non-linguists who are interested in volunteering time to a museum for language are also encouraged to contact us.

Please contact Helen Carpenter at carpenth at georgetown.edu if you are interested in volunteering or supporting the National Museum of Language by becoming a member. If you are interested in becoming involved with the Programs Committee, please contact Lauren Raivel at lauren_raivel at msn.com.

Please feel free to forward this e-mail to anyone else you think may be interested.

Thanks, and we appreciate your interest.

Helen S. Carpenter
Board of Directors
National Museum of Language
7100 Baltimore Avenue
Suite 202
College Park, MD 20740
carpenth at georgetown.edu


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 28 15:55:27 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:55:27 EDT
Subject: Query: Was a gold ball really thrown out to start season?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.115527.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/28/2002 2:58:06 AM, douglas at NB.NET writes:

<<What exactly is meant by a gold ball? It's not likely to have been
> solid gold. >>

Well, gee, I think a solid gold baseball would be a little impractical, even
in California. I recall that the "mean pin-ball" that "that deaf, dumb, and
blind kid" played in the musical TOMMY were characterized as "silver ball,"
even though they were no doubt steel--I think it is quite common in English
to use the terms "silver" and "gold" to describe the color of objects,
without any necessary implication that the objects referred to are actually
made of the rare metal--or indeed, metal at all.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 28 16:24:56 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:24:56 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.122456.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In reading Allen Walker Read's wonderful round-up on the OK corral
(Chapters 10-15 of PADS 86, hot off the press)--great infirmary
reading, as I thought--it occurred to me that his descriptions of the
"craze" among newspapers in Boston, New York, New Orleans, and the
"transmontane" press (as the area between the Alleghenies and Rockies
was known) in the late 1830's and early 1840's for abbreviations and
other "laconics" (see the quote from the Ninewah Gazette of Peru, IL
on p. 140) very closely prefigures traits of the current texting
(txting) language popularized through SMS (short message service,
involving the video display space on cell phones now commonly used in
Europe and East Asia and perhaps making inroads in the US, to the
horror of English teachers and other purists).  I recall hearing a
couple of papers on some of the truncations and initialisms involved,
and checked the web, and my sense is that while this trend began with
e-mail messages (ROTFL and its ilk)--or even earlier in service lingo
(FUBAR, SNAFU)--and was accelerated by habits of AIM [AOL instant
messaging] users (including my undergraduates, it appears, and not
just my teenage kids) it's really picked up with the constraints
imposed by the tiny message space available for txt.  (They don't
call it SMS for 0.)

The AWR data involves "cabalistic" readings (as critics complained at
the time), in that the functions of laconics were not just to save
space but to create and ratify an in-group and confuse outsiders (who
often expressed their irritation with just this fact).  These factors
led to the use of intentionally misrepresented or pseudo-illiterate
initialisms, e.g. K.Y. 'no use', K.G. 'no go', O.W. 'oll wright', and
of course O.K. itself 'oll korrect'.  The appearance of "the three
R's" (for reading, 'ritin, and 'rithmetic) stems from this period.  A
lot of the true initialisms also involved some cabalistic
knowledge--O.F.M. 'our first men', and so on.  (Not to mention nonce
initialisms, including those appearing in print with glosses
attached.)  And then there are the intermediate cases--N.S. for 'nuff
said', ODV 'eau de vie' (later reinterpreted as 'oll done vith', for
when your glass is empty).  There are also other truncations/laconics
that don't involve initialisms as such, e.g. XLNC 'excellence'.  From
a poem reprinted in 1832, "To Miss Catherine Jay, of Utica":

Oh KTJ is far B4
All other maids IC;
Her XLNC I adore
As a lovely NTT.

And then of course there are the waggish unpackings of initialisms,
as in our own bacronyms (FORD = 'found on road dead', PH.D. 'piled
higher and deeper), including the degrees explicated in 1831:
"A.B.--Apt to Blunder", "LL.D.--Licensed to Die Damnably",
"M.D.--Maker of Dead men").

But what struck me in reading this are the parallels (and to some
degree non-parallels) with our own (or our own children's) use of
laconics in AIM/SMS lingo.  Some examples, off the cuff, of what one
site cleverly describes as "Gen-TXT" usage, but as is also noted
elsewhere, has now extended to the business world, electronic crawls,
communications at airports, police communications, etc.:

RU 'are you'
OIC 'Oh, I see'
BBL 'be back later'
PLZ
XLNT
NE
INO 'I know'

--RUOK?  'are you OK?'
--Y NY?    'yes, and you?"

Note the use of "inaccurate" initialisms, reinventing the practice of
the 1830's, and the mixture of initialisms, near-initialisms, and
simple truncations, often involving vowel deletion (cf. the 1832
poet's XLNC vs. the modern XLNT, or the relation of our kids' INO,
OIC, etc. and our great(N)-grandparents' usas as detailed by AWR.
One interesting difference is in the alphanumeric mixing of today--

CUL8R
F2T?  'free to talk'
B4N
2MORO
W84ME 'wait for me'
NE1
3SUM
J4F 'just for fun'

--which is almost unparalleled in the citations from c. 1840 that I
reviewed.  Almost, because of that one use of "B4" in the KTJ poem
above.  Nor are there any proto-emoticons as far as I can tell.  Of
course if I were going to do this seriously, I'd have to track down
AWR's sources and look for myself.  (Or at least do an MoA database
search on "B4" and other likely suspects, whatever they might be.)

So, do any listees know of work anticipating what I've been burbling
on about, connecting the
c. 1840 fad/vogue/craze of initialisms with the more modern trends of
c. 2000?  Don't want to step on NE1's toes here.

larry


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 28 16:56:45 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:56:45 EDT
Subject: Query: Was a gold ball really thrown out to start season?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.125645.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

California is nicknamed the Golden State, and sometimes likes to celebrate
its Gold Rush origins, so a gold-colored ball would have been appropriately
symbolic there, and nobody would have needed to be reminded of the symbolism.
- Allan Metcalf


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Jun 28 17:00:32 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 18:00:32 +0100
Subject: An initial 4A?
In-Reply-To: <p04320405b94224f2789f@[130.132.231.242]>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.180032.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Friday, June 28, 2002 12:24 pm -0400 Laurence Horn
<laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:

> One interesting difference is in the alphanumeric mixing of today--
>
> CUL8R
> F2T?  'free to talk'
> B4N
> 2MORO
> W84ME 'wait for me'
> NE1
> 3SUM
> J4F 'just for fun'


I have the impression that some of this mixing started with the trend for
personalised license plates, esp. use of '8' as a syllable in those.

The txt stuff is rife over here, and a number of students in our historical
linguistics/history of English courses have done projects on it, although I
don't know that any have made connections between txting and pre-20th
century forms.

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 28 17:48:59 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:48:59 -0400
Subject: Query: Was a gold ball really thrown out to start season?
In-Reply-To: <172.a749129.2a4def4d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.134859.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:56 PM -0400 6/28/02, AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:
>California is nicknamed the Golden State, and sometimes likes to celebrate
>its Gold Rush origins, so a gold-colored ball would have been appropriately
>symbolic there, and nobody would have needed to be reminded of the symbolism.
>- Allan Metcalf


cf. inter alia the Golden State Warriors (Oakland), the Golden State
Freeway (LA), the California Golden Bears (Berkeley),...


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 28 17:54:13 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:54:13 EDT
Subject: An initial 4A?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.135413.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/28/02 12:24:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

> In reading Allen Walker Read's wonderful round-up on the OK corral

That was "gunfight at the OK corral", which considering the polemics I have
occasionallly seen on the subject, also seems to fit.

Seriously, you are overlooking a major source of condensed spelling, and that
is telegraphese.  Morse code requires a certain amount of time to send the
dihs and dahs for a letter, so if the telegrapher is in a hurry any
abbreviating is beneficial.

In fact telegraphers in the US (and maybe other English-speaking countries)
had the "Phillips code", which was a system of reducing words to a minimal
set of consonants (or something like that.)   "PLS" or "PLZ" for "please" is
an obvious example.

The only telegraphers I have ever seen in action have been a few ham radio
operators.  They have their own standard condensations (not always
"abbreviations").
A few:
    73    good-bye
    88    love and kisses
    DX    distance
    YL    young lady
    YF    wife (phonetic) also called XYL for "ex-YL"
    DE    from (this one is odd because it is Spanish)

Web Page http://www.metronet.com/~nmcewen/Telegraph_Talk-McClure-1902.html is
a copy of a 1902 article on telegraphy.  Just one quote:

<Begin quote>
    Expressed in print a laugh is a bald "ha ha!" that requires other words
to describe its quality.  In wire talk the same form is used, but the manner
of rendering it imparts quality to the laughter. In dot-and-dash converse, as
in speech, "ha! ha!" may give an impression of mirthlessness, of mild
amusement, or of convulsion.  The double "i," again, in wire parlance, has a
wide range of meaning according to its rendition.  A few double "i's" are
used as a prelude to a conversation, as well as to break the abruptness in
ending it.  They are also made to express doubt or acquiescence; and in any
hesitation for a word or phrase are used to preserve the continuity of a
divided sentence.  When an order is given in Morse over the wire, the
operator's acknowledgment is a ringing "ii!" which has the same significance
as a sailor's "aye, aye, sir!"
<end quote>

The above sounds like a crude ancestor of today's emoticons.

I did a Google search on "telegraphese".  After asking if I meant
"telegraphs", Google gave me 311 hits, most of which did not deal with Morse
code.  Among the Web pages were ones on aphasia, children learning to speak
Mayan, comparing English and Yinglish, and someone's criticism of Robert A.
Heinlein's writing style.

You might want to check out some of these potential threads.

One other source of "telegraphese" is newspaper headlines.  The headline
writer (generally the copy editor who handles the story) has a limited amount
of space in which s/he has to fill with large type and still produce an
accurate precis of the story.  Many collections exist of unintentionally
humorous headlines, e.g. "DRUNK GETS TWO WEEKS IN VIOLIN CASE".  Or the
Washington Post on the day Soviet Premier Andropov's death was announced,
"REAGAN TO VISIT MOSCOW ANDROPOV DEAD"

         - Jim Landau


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 28 17:56:05 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:56:05 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A?
In-Reply-To: <5144807.3234276032@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.135605.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:00 PM +0100 6/28/02, Lynne Murphy wrote:
>--On Friday, June 28, 2002 12:24 pm -0400 Laurence Horn
><laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>
>>One interesting difference is in the alphanumeric mixing of today--
>>
>>CUL8R
>>F2T?  'free to talk'
>>B4N
>>2MORO
>>W84ME 'wait for me'
>>NE1
>>3SUM
>>J4F 'just for fun'
>
>
>I have the impression that some of this mixing started with the trend for
>personalised license plates, esp. use of '8' as a syllable in those.

Thanks for the suggestion, Lynne.  Does NE1 know of any sources on
the origin of alphanumeric initialisms?

>
>The txt stuff is rife over here, and a number of students in our historical
>linguistics/history of English courses have done projects on it, although I
>don't know that any have made connections between txting and pre-20th
>century forms.
>
>Lynne

Which brings up "OK as Ur-txt" as a possible title.

larry


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 28 18:11:28 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:11:28 EDT
Subject: Non-native English?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.141128.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Somebody from the address <MikeGHRC at aol.com> keeps sending me a message
(shown below in its entirety), with an attached file. I'm afraid to open it
for fear of viruses, and I don't even know what an "IE 6.0 patch" is, but the
reason I'm writing is to ask if anyone else sees this as something that a
native speaker of English would not say. I'm not referring to the use of "a"
before a vowel (that is native to my Midwestern speech, pronounced with a
glottal stop where the "n" would go in standard speech), but rather to the
use of "would" instead of "will"--what do ADS-L-ers think?

The message:


<HEAD></HEAD>

Hi,This is a IE 6.0 patch
I hope you would like it.


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Jun 28 18:14:34 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:14:34 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.141434.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

larry writes:
>So, do any listees know of work anticipating what I've been burbling
>on about, connecting the
>c. 1840 fad/vogue/craze of initialisms with the more modern trends of
>c. 2000?  Don't want to step on NE1's toes here.
~~~~~~~~
Not me, but there is some interesting supplementary material in the chapter
on Rebuses in OUP's /The Oxford Guide toWord Games/ by Tony Augarde.
Alphanumeric rebuses seem to have been around before 1830.  Recently a sort
of message-sending  in numbers-only tiny LCD pagers has used the
rectilinear design of the numbers to advantage.  Thus 07734 turned
upside-down reads hELLO, for instance.
A. Murie


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Fri Jun 28 18:20:01 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:20:01 -0700
Subject: Non-native English?
In-Reply-To: <15c.f91fcb0.2a4e00d0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.112001.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I agree that it sounds non-native. And, I wouldn't open it up either!

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> Somebody from the address <MikeGHRC at aol.com> keeps sending me a message
> (shown below in its entirety), with an attached file. I'm afraid to open it
> for fear of viruses, and I don't even know what an "IE 6.0 patch" is, but the
> reason I'm writing is to ask if anyone else sees this as something that a
> native speaker of English would not say. I'm not referring to the use of "a"
> before a vowel (that is native to my Midwestern speech, pronounced with a
> glottal stop where the "n" would go in standard speech), but rather to the
> use of "would" instead of "will"--what do ADS-L-ers think?
>
> The message:
>
>
> <HEAD></HEAD>
>
> Hi,This is a IE 6.0 patch
> I hope you would like it.
>


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 28 18:27:33 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:27:33 -0400
Subject: Non-native English?
In-Reply-To: <15c.f91fcb0.2a4e00d0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.142733.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RonButters at AOL.COM said:
>Somebody from the address <MikeGHRC at aol.com> keeps sending me a message
>(shown below in its entirety), with an attached file. I'm afraid to open it
>for fear of viruses, and I don't even know what an "IE 6.0 patch" is, but the
>reason I'm writing is to ask if anyone else sees this as something that a
>native speaker of English would not say. I'm not referring to the use of "a"
>before a vowel (that is native to my Midwestern speech, pronounced with a
>glottal stop where the "n" would go in standard speech), but rather to the
>use of "would" instead of "will"--what do ADS-L-ers think?
>
>The message:
>
>
><HEAD></HEAD>
>
>Hi,This is a IE 6.0 patch
>I hope you would like it.

This is a virus, no question. The patch in question would install the
virus on your system so that it would get sent to still more people,
perhaps purporting to be from you.

My impression from what little computer security reading I do is that
a lot of these viruses are produced by teenagers in Asia and Eastern
Europe, which would account for the off feel of the sentence.

Alice


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 28 18:28:49 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:28:49 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
In-Reply-To: <l03130301b9424f278cf6@[12.107.144.165]>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.142849.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

sagehen said:
>larry writes:
>>So, do any listees know of work anticipating what I've been burbling
>>on about, connecting the
>>c. 1840 fad/vogue/craze of initialisms with the more modern trends of
>>c. 2000?  Don't want to step on NE1's toes here.
>~~~~~~~~
>Not me, but there is some interesting supplementary material in the chapter
>on Rebuses in OUP's /The Oxford Guide toWord Games/ by Tony Augarde.
>Alphanumeric rebuses seem to have been around before 1830.  Recently a sort
>of message-sending  in numbers-only tiny LCD pagers has used the
>rectilinear design of the numbers to advantage.  Thus 07734 turned
>upside-down reads hELLO, for instance.

I remember doing "cool tricks" like that with calculators in the early 70s.

Alice


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 28 18:32:18 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:32:18 EDT
Subject: Non-native English?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.143218.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/28/02 2:12:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
RonButters at AOL.COM writes:

> Hi,This is a IE 6.0 patch
>  I hope you would like it.

Do NOT open the file.  "IE" stands for "Internet Explorer", and NOBODY would
send out patches for IE unsolicitated.  The sender is probably malicious.

(I have already reported this apparently-malicious e-mail to AOL.  You might
want to do the same---screen names TOSEMAIL1 and POSTMASTER)

In the past few days I have received half a dozen e-mails from addresses I
never heard of, each one with a file attached.  I have reported all of them
to my ISP (AOL).
They appear to be the work of native Spanish speakers, since the file names
are such things as "buscar.zip" (buscar = to search for) and the return
addresses include such things as atencion at conade.gob.mx ("attention at
something something Mexico").

     - Jim Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 28 18:39:31 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:39:31 EDT
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.143931.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/28/02 2:12:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes:

> Recently a sort
>  of message-sending  in numbers-only tiny LCD pagers has used the
>  rectilinear design of the numbers to advantage.  Thus 07734 turned
>  upside-down reads hELLO, for instance.

You have some awfully polite e-correspondents.  Turning 7734 upside down to
read "hELL" has been around since long before LCD's were invented.


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Jun 28 18:50:20 2002
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 19:50:20 +0100
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
In-Reply-To: <1aa.45419d5.2a4e0763@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.195020.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Friday, June 28, 2002 2:39 pm +0000 "James A. Landau"
<JJJRLandau at AOL.COM> wrote:

> You have some awfully polite e-correspondents.  Turning 7734 upside down
> to read "hELL" has been around since long before LCD's were invented.

Indeed, when I was in the 3rd grade, a classmate (I'm tempted to name and
shame!) told me to write down her phone number, 7734 (in my town, you
didn't have to tell people the prefix, since there was only one).  So I
did, on my spelling book, and she turned it upside down and said "look, you
wrote a bad word, I'm going to go tell Mrs Nelson".   Once she got to the
teacher's desk, she merely asked to go to the lavatory, but I nearly died
of anxiety-induced heart attack in those few seconds.

Scarred for life,
Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 28 19:26:47 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 15:26:47 EDT
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.152647.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/28/2002 2:50:35 PM, lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK writes:

<< Indeed, when I was in the 3rd grade, a classmate (I'm tempted to name and
shame!) told me to write down her phone number, 7734 (in my town, you
didn't have to tell people the prefix, since there was only one).  So I
did, on my spelling book, and she turned it upside down and said "look, you
wrote a bad word, I'm going to go tell Mrs Nelson".   Once she got to the
teacher's desk, she merely asked to go to the lavatory, but I nearly died
of anxiety-induced heart attack in those few seconds. >>

In my high-school in the 1950s, one of the cheers was "Wilson, Wilson [name
of opposing team] go to 7-7-3-4-upside down"! I know, it is hard to believe
that the USA was THAT euphemistic less than 50 years ago.


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Jun 28 19:53:48 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 20:53:48 +0100
Subject: Non-native English?
In-Reply-To: <15c.f91fcb0.2a4e00d0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.205348.0100.>

> Somebody from the address <MikeGHRC at aol.com> keeps sending me a
> message (shown below in its entirety), with an attached file. I'm
> afraid to open it for fear of viruses, and I don't even know what
> an "IE 6.0 patch" is, but the reason I'm writing is to ask if
> anyone else sees this as something that a native speaker of English
> would not say.

The message, with its attached file, is an example of one type of a
nasty virus (strictly a trojan) called Klez. The message sizes are
typically about 130Kb, so it's a real hog on bandwidth. The size is
accounted for by its having its own mail server built in.

It has the particularly nasty habit not only of sending itself to all
the names in your address book (if you use MS Outlook) but of sending
such messages faked up to look as though they come from people other
than yourself. I get about 20 copies a day from infected subscribers,
plus several bounces from systems which think I have sent copies out.
(So the person at AOL may not in fact be the sender.)

The various subject lines and text messages in it are drawn from a
small thesaurus, which do seem to have been written by a non-native
speaker of English.

Do everything possible to stop it from infecting your system, mainly
by not clicking on the attachment. It can be cleaned by standard anti-
virus software programs, if their data files are up-to-date.


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 28 20:14:53 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 16:14:53 -0400
Subject: FW: Query: Was a gold ball really thrown out to start season?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.161453.0400.>

What Ron says below made me think of the heads of golf clubs, once made of
wood, now (in the last decade or so) made of metal.  They're called metal
woods generically, but one still speaks of a 3-wood or a fairway wood,
despite the metal content.

Frank Abate

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of RonButters at AOL.COM
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 11:55 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Query: Was a gold ball really thrown out to start season?


In a message dated 6/28/2002 2:58:06 AM, douglas at NB.NET writes:

<<What exactly is meant by a gold ball? It's not likely to have been
> solid gold. >>

Well, gee, I think a solid gold baseball would be a little impractical, even
in California. I recall that the "mean pin-ball" that "that deaf, dumb, and
blind kid" played in the musical TOMMY were characterized as "silver ball,"
even though they were no doubt steel--I think it is quite common in English
to use the terms "silver" and "gold" to describe the color of objects,
without any necessary implication that the objects referred to are actually
made of the rare metal--or indeed, metal at all.


From maynor at RA.MSSTATE.EDU  Fri Jun 28 21:29:37 2002
From: maynor at RA.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 16:29:37 -0500
Subject: Job Ad (TESOL)
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.162937.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

******************************
Mississippi SU, Drawer E, Mississippi State, MS   39762

One-year replacement position beginning August 16, 2002, and ending May
15, 2003, as Visiting Assistant Professor in TESOL. Ph.D. in English or
linguistics with emphasis in TESOL required.  Ability to teach a course in
modern grammar/syntax is a must.  Salary will be competitive.  Mississippi
State University is a Carnegie I institution with approximately 15,000
students on the main campus.  To apply, please send a letter and a c.v. to
arrive by July 20, 2002. Review of applications will begin immediately and
will continue until the position is filled.  Mississippi State University
is an AA/EO employer.

Matthew Little, Head
******************************


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 28 21:51:37 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 17:51:37 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A?
In-Reply-To: <128.1394bc13.2a4dfcc5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.175137.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Jim.  That's another great area to look at.  And I should
have remembered about the "Gunfight" as opposed to "Roundup"...

>In a message dated 6/28/02 12:24:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
>  > In reading Allen Walker Read's wonderful round-up on the OK corral
>
>That was "gunfight at the OK corral", which considering the polemics I have
>occasionallly seen on the subject, also seems to fit.
>

  even if the last time I went through this somewhere I checked google
and found that several other people had the same misinformed
recollection.  Almost qualifies as a genuine folk movie title.  As
for the telegraphese, I knew about the reduction in number of words
(to save money) but not in their size (to save time).

>One other source of "telegraphese" is newspaper headlines.  The headline
>writer (generally the copy editor who handles the story) has a limited amount
>of space in which s/he has to fill with large type and still produce an
>accurate precis of the story.  Many collections exist of unintentionally
>humorous headlines, e.g. "DRUNK GETS TWO WEEKS IN VIOLIN CASE".  Or the
>Washington Post on the day Soviet Premier Andropov's death was announced,
>"REAGAN TO VISIT MOSCOW ANDROPOV DEAD"
>
One locus classicus for telegraphese is the (purported?  apocryphal?)
exchange between Cary Grant, on location somewhere in Europe, and a
flack of some sort:

Flack:  HOW OLD CARY GRANT
CG:     OLD CARY GRANT FINE    HOW YOU

There have been some excellent collections of ambiguous headlines, as
you say.  My favorite is "Squad Helps Dog Bite Victim, and other
flubs from the nation's press", released by Dolphin Books in 1980.

Larry


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sat Jun 29 01:07:46 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 21:07:46 -0400
Subject: Non-native English?
In-Reply-To: <3D1CCCDC.24514.14296B7@localhost>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.210746.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, Michael Quinion wrote:

#The message, with its attached file, is an example of one type of a
#nasty virus (strictly a trojan) called Klez. The message sizes are
#typically about 130Kb, so it's a real hog on bandwidth. The size is
#accounted for by its having its own mail server built in.
#
#It has the particularly nasty habit not only of sending itself to all
#the names in your address book (if you use MS Outlook) but of sending
#such messages faked up to look as though they come from people other
#than yourself. I get about 20 copies a day from infected subscribers,
#plus several bounces from systems which think I have sent copies out.
#(So the person at AOL may not in fact be the sender.)

Indeed. I have been getting reports recently of Klez-infected mail,
allegedly from me, to several lists I'm on and addresses I've never
heard of.  Since my stone-age email access makes this virtually
impossible (as confirmed by my ISP), it seems certain that Klez has
lifted my address from someone else's address book (or plural) and
spoofed it as the sender.

-- Mark A. Mandel, who nevertheless screened his windows machine for
   Klez; it came up clean, "no infected files found"


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Sat Jun 29 01:58:50 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 20:58:50 -0500
Subject: Non-native English?
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.205850.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jim Landau said:

"Do NOT open the file.  "IE" stands for "Internet Explorer", and NOBODY would
send out patches for IE unsolicitated.  "

I was intrigued by "unsolicitated" where I would have 'unsolicited'. A quick google search suggests 'unsolicitate' is fairly common especially in this context of spamming.
Is this another specialized usage for a backformation like commentate (cf. comment)?
  


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 29 03:19:51 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 23:19:51 -0400
Subject: MRE; Near Bear
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.231951.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Seward, Alaska.  I just had a pleasant, TEN HOUR bus trip.

MRE--Meals ready to eat.  Climbers like 'em.  OED?  The OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD?  "MRE" wasn't even explained on the tourist sign.

NEAR BEAR--Not "near beer."  "Near Bear" experience.  Make lots of noise.

SNOW MACHINES--Other states call 'em snowmobiles, but not Alaska.

HIGH MARKING--Taking your snow machine as high up a mountain as you can.  Highly dangerous.  You can get killed in an avalanche of your own making.

OUTHOUSE FLOWER--A chocolate lilly.  They smell.

SLIME LINE--The line for cleaning fish.

COMBAT FISHING--A term for those sights of rows and rows for fishermen.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 29 03:27:52 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 23:27:52 -0400
Subject: Fauxhawk (Fake Mohawk)
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.232752.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   USA TODAY (Thursday) did an article on the Mohawk.  The story mentioned the "fauxhawk" that is now popular.  There is a GQ special magazine issue on men's hairstyles.
   "Mull it" over.


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun 29 04:45:47 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 00:45:47 -0400
Subject: new website about Pittsburgh speech
In-Reply-To: <2973522522.1025175738@BP245DNOMAD-2.HSS.CMU.EDU>
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.004547.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From this Web-site (http://english.cmu.edu/pittsburghspeech/):

<<Many words that are in widespread use throughout the U.S. have
African-American origins. "Jazz" is one example.>>

I believe the example is false, or at least not verifiable. I think some
legitimate generally-accepted African derivations (not just
"African-American" but presumably via African-Americans) can be cited:
"okra", "gumbo", "goober", "voodoo", "buckra", probably some better ones
which I haven't thought of.

-- Doug Wilson


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Jun 29 05:24:47 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 22:24:47 -0700
Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.222447.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One of the problems in trying to use English orthographic re-spellings to
indicate pronunciation is that regional pronunciations vary considerably,
and of course there is considerable difference cross-linguistically in the
pronunciation values attached to particular letters or combinations. This
is why the International Phonetic Association was formed in the 19th c.,
and why linguists use more-or-less consistent transcriptions to represent
pronunciations. Americans for over 150 years have been shielded by
dictionary-makers from confronting and learning a consistent phonemic
representation, but British dictionaries have for some time utilized a
version of the IPA system, and presumably British school-children learn
this system, and know how to interpret it in using a dictionary. When I
taught in Taiwan 30 years ago, I found that even 8th graders who were
studying English as a foreign language, and struggling with the very
concept of an alphabetic system for writing the language, were also
expected to learn a "broad" IPA phonemic transcription at the same time.
American innocence in this area, even after over 50 years of efforts by
linguists, remains regrettable, and a reflection on our educational
system.

        Representing the different pronunciations of <route> as "root" and
"rowt" runs afoul of the problem that the word <root> can be pronounced to
rhyme with <foot> or <boot>, and the respelling "rowt" can be interpreted
as reflecting the vowel of <rote> or of <rout>. A phonemic transcription
of /ruwt/ (or /ru:t/, as some might prefer) vs /rawt/ (or again, some
might aesthetically prefer /raUt/) has the value of being unambiguous and
consistent (the variant transcriptions are equally clear and consistent).

        Rudy


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Jun 29 05:29:16 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 22:29:16 -0700
Subject: Telegraphese
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.222916.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One of the classic gems of telegraphese comes from the fact that telegrams
were printed entirely in capital letters, erasing the information encoded
in upper vs lower case. A famous Chinese linguist at UC Berkeley, Y.R.
Chao, and his wife were coming to the U of Chicago by train for a visit,
and sent word ahead by telegram to the linguist who was to meet their
train:

        CHAOS ARRIVING AT 5:00.


        Rudy


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 29 06:10:42 2002
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 02:10:42 EDT
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.021042.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Two things:

Concerning calculators, my favorite calculator trick was always:
1 girl, takes 16 guys, and does 69, times 3.  What is she? (11669x3)= 35007
(loose!, ha! Ha! oh, fifth grade humor is still funny!).  There were others,
one ended with 58008, which was supposed to be "boobs", but I don't remember
them.

Concerning txting shortcuts, either the chinese or japanese speaking students
I was in class with about 2 years ago mentioned that in their e-mails, 881
was used as an ending.  Regretfully, I'm not versed on either language, but
in one of them, pronouncing the numbers gives you something that sounds very
much like "bye-bye" (or, I guess "buh-bye").

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham,
In Transition...


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sat Jun 29 10:49:04 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 06:49:04 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
In-Reply-To: <165.f6f7bd4.2a4ea962@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.064904.0400.>

> Concerning txting shortcuts, either the chinese or japanese speaking students
> I was in class with about 2 years ago mentioned that in their e-mails, 881
> was used as an ending.  Regretfully, I'm not versed on either language, but
> in one of them, pronouncing the numbers gives you something that sounds very
> much like "bye-bye" (or, I guess "buh-bye").

Are you sure that wasn't 733t-speak (aka leet-speak or even more plainly,
elite-speak, used by script kiddies and hacker wannabes)? In 733t-speak,
numbers and letter are often transposed based upon their shape. Capital Bs
and 8s, for example, and the number 1 and the capital letter I. So 881 might
be a version of BBI which might be pronounced bee-bee-eye or bee-bye and
mean "buh-bye."

It's not altogether that transparent. My favorite phrase to see in
733t-speak, which always makes me laugh:

"H4 H4 DOOD! PH33R M3! I OWN JOO!"

--

Apple Macintosh Technical Support in New York City
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
http://www.worldnewyork.org/


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun 29 10:53:46 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 06:53:46 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
In-Reply-To: <165.f6f7bd4.2a4ea962@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.065346.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... in their e-mails, 881 was used as an ending.  ... pronouncing the
>numbers gives you something that sounds very much like "bye-bye" (or, I
>guess "buh-bye").

"Ba ba yi" in Chinese I think: /babai/ or close enough, ignoring tone.

Here is a list of these things in English and Chinese:

http://lostincolours.tripod.com/numbers/

I can't explain the Chinese ones completely. For example, "520" = "wu er
[ling?]" means "wo ai ni" = "I love you" (a very common one of course),
"530" = "wu san [ling?]" means "wo xiang ni" = "I miss you", etc., so
apparently these are at least partly phonetic (allowing a lot of leeway),
but maybe I'm reading the zero wrong. Some of the translations are opaque
to me, for that matter. I hope somebody will fill me/us in. "881" is
'translated' here as "bai bai", phonetic for "bye-bye" although I'm pretty
sure the numbers are derived from "ba ba yi". Note "8084" which may be
orthographic (= "BABY"), 'translated' as "bao bei" (lit., "precious
object", orig. "precious shell" I think) = "sweetheart" or the
coincidentally phonetically felicitous world-English "baby".

There are larger lists of these Chinese codes on the Web. Somewhere I read
that the #520 bus in Taipei was specially decorated for Valentine's Day.

The English codes on this page are mostly orthographically based, I think,
with numbers which resemble the letters (again, with a lot of leeway). I
wonder whether these are English codes used specifically by Chinese, or
whether they are US-an or world-English: "I sorry", "I marry you" seem a
little awkward to me; as for the "booty call", hmmm.

-- Doug Wilson


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 29 13:08:37 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:08:37 EDT
Subject: MRE; Near Bear
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.090837.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/28/2002 11:21:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

> MRE--Meals ready to eat.  Climbers like 'em.  OED?  The OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA
> OF AMERICAN FOOD?  "MRE" wasn't even explained on the tourist sign.

Developed by DOD to replace the old C-ration and other portable foods for
soldiers.  The acronym came to public attention during Desert Shield/Desert
Storn.  Often "backronymed" to mean "meals refused by Ethiopians" or "meals
refused by everyone".

         - Jim Landau


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 29 13:46:06 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:46:06 -0400
Subject: new website about Pittsburgh speech
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020629003516.049c4ec0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.094606.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:45 AM -0400 6/29/02, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>From this Web-site (http://english.cmu.edu/pittsburghspeech/):
>
><<Many words that are in widespread use throughout the U.S. have
>African-American origins. "Jazz" is one example.>>
>
>I believe the example is false, or at least not verifiable.

My impression, based on Barry's, Jerry's, and others' posts here over
the last few years, is that "false" is closer than just "not
verifiable", given the San Francisco baseball connection established
by them.  Nevertheless, as Allen Walker Read would put it, the
TRAJECTORY, if not the ORIGIN, of the word has rich African-American
(though not directly African) inspiration.  He stresses the dangers
of oversimpifying the notion of etymology, and that line is
especially relevant to such a rich domain.  (Didn't we choose "jazz"
as WOTC?)

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 29 14:18:11 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:18:11 -0400
Subject: re Jack Buck
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.101811.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Confirmation of Alice's speculation:



Buck's call of Ozzie Smith's 1985 NLCS home run against the Dodgers
is often cited as an exemplar of his work. ESPN.com recently provided
a chance to listen to Buck calling Smith's home run. While the "Go
crazy!" part of that excerpt remains the most famous...

--Remembering
by Josh Paley
(from baseballprospectus.com)


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 29 15:50:27 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 11:50:27 EDT
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.115027.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/29/2002 6:49:38 AM, gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes:

<< It's not altogether that transparent. My favorite phrase to see in
733t-speak, which always makes me laugh:

"H4 H4 DOOD! PH33R M3! I OWN JOO!" >>

Not transparent at all! Do I needd to know Chinese to get it? Will somebody
please translate?


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Jun 29 16:09:27 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:09:27 -0700
Subject: MRE; Near Bear
In-Reply-To: <e.21204afb.2a4f0b55@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.090927.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Developed by DOD to replace the old C-ration and other
> portable foods for soldiers.  The acronym came to
> public attention during Desert Shield/Desert Storn.
> Often "backronymed" to mean "meals refused by
> Ethiopians" or "meals refused by everyone".

MREs made their appearance in the early '80s (probably even late-70s given
how long DoD takes to develop things)--I ate my first one in 1984. My ROTC
unit in Pennsylvania was still using the old C-rations. When I spent the
summer of '84 at Fort Bragg, I had my first MRE--by that time the old
C-rations were gone from the regular Army. The first ones were really awful;
since then the menu selection has improved considerably and some of them are
actually quite good. The "meals rejected by Ethiopia" name stems from the
famines (remember Band-Aid and Live-Aid?) of the mid-80s and refers to the
poor quality of the early MREs.

Technically, MREs are "C-rations," although that name came to be
specifically associated with the older, canned individual meals in common
soldier parlance (MREs come in plastic packets and are often freeze-dried or
vacuum-packed). US Army field rations are either A, B, or C. A is fresh, hot
food; real eggs for breakfast (cooked to order if you had a good mess
sergeant), fresh vegetables, salad, etc. B rations are hot, but not fresh;
e.g., powdered eggs for breakfast. C are the individually packed meals that
don't require cooks or KP. A typical meal schedule for a training day is
A-C-A, hot breakfast and dinner with MREs for lunch. (The "C" in C-rations
does not stand for "canned" as many think.)

When I was leaving the Army in 1989, they were experimenting with
"T-rations." These were group, heat-and-serve meals in aluminium foil
trays--no cooks required. Each tray (hence the T in the name), were designed
to feed, IIRC, 12 soldiers. They were utterly inedible, unfit for human
consumption. They also came in really bizarre menu combinations. One
breakfast menu contained a tray of cherry of pie filling, no pie just the
filling! The only saving grace was that they came with copious quantities of
bread, peanut butter, and jelly. On days when we were scheduled to have
"T-rats" for breakfast and dinner (in place of A or B rations), we ate PB&Js
or pogey-bait bought at the PX. I don't know what happened to T-rats as I
left the army and never encountered them in civilian life. If they're still
around, they've probably improved in quality like MREs did.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Jun 29 16:25:30 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:25:30 -0700
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
In-Reply-To: <de.2942454e.2a4f3143@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.092530.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> << It's not altogether that transparent. My favorite phrase to see in
> 733t-speak, which always makes me laugh:
>
> "H4 H4 DOOD! PH33R M3! I OWN JOO!" >>
>
> Not transparent at all! Do I needd to know Chinese to get it?
> Will somebody
> please translate?

"Ha Ha dude! Fear me! I own you!"


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Jun 29 17:06:24 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 12:06:24 -0500
Subject: Query: "ground-rent man" (baseball, 1908)
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.120624.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   First, my thanx for clarifying the throwing out of a gold baseball
to start the 1913 season of the San Francisco Seals. Yes, not only is
California the Golden State, but I found a specific reference to San
Francisco as the Golden City. Sutter's Mill (where gold was
discovered in 1848) was somewhere near modern-day San Francisco,
although I'm not sure just of the exact location.

    I now have a new query: "ground-rent man" in a baseball context.
The newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_ present the following item,

>    April 4, 1913, p.20/3; 'Birthday Extra.  Congratulations To Tris
>Speaker'; 'He became a professional ball player in 1906, when he
>joined the Cleburne, Tex., team.  In 1907 he played with the Houston
>team.  At the close of the season he was purchased by [the] Boston
>[Red Sox] and turned over to Little Rock the following spring as
>ground-rent man, the Red Sox having trained on the Little Rock
>grounds.'


     What is the meaning of "ground-rent man" here?  OED gives two
definitions for "ground-rent" (presented right after my  signoff),
but neither one seems appropriate.  Any help would be much
appreciated.

Gerald Cohen


(OED, "ground-rent"):
     The rent paid to the owner of land which is let for building
upon. Also U.S. (see quot. 1856).

   1667 PRIMATT City & C. Build. 35 Fifty pounds per ann. is but a
reasonable ground-rent for a House that will cost five
hundred pounds..and yield one hundred pounds per annum. 1682 N. O.
Boileau's Lutrin IV. 292 Fifty Marks a year in
Ground-Rents. 1701 Lond. Gaz. No. 3712/4 The Ground Rent [is] but
10s. per Annum. 1776 ADAM SMITH W.N. V. ii.
(1869) II. 436 Ground rents are a still more proper subject of
taxation than the rent of houses. 1834 West Ind. Sketch Bk.
II. 158 A great convenience..to the tenants, in all questions of
ground-rent. 1856 BOUVIER Law Dict., Ground rent, in
Pennsylvania this term is used to signify a perpetual rent issuing
out of some real estate. 1863 FAWCETT Pol. Econ. II. vii.
(1876) 621 The occupier of a house pays a ground-rent to the owner of the land.


     b. A piece of land rented for building on. Obs.

   1714 GAY Shepherd's Week, Proeme, As a London mason, who
calculateth his work for a term of years, when he
buildeth with old materials upon a ground-rent that is not his own,
which soon turneth to rubbish and ruins.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 29 19:40:07 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:40:07 EDT
Subject: Query: "ground-rent man" (baseball, 1908)
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.154007.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/29/2002 2:52:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gcohen at UMR.EDU writes:

> >    April 4, 1913, p.20/3; 'Birthday Extra.  Congratulations To Tris
>  >Speaker'; 'He became a professional ball player in 1906, when he
>  >joined the Cleburne, Tex., team.  In 1907 he played with the Houston
>  >team.  At the close of the season he was purchased by [the] Boston
>  >[Red Sox] and turned over to Little Rock the following spring as
>  >ground-rent man, the Red Sox having trained on the Little Rock
>  >grounds.'

The meaning seems clear to me.  Tris Speaker was turned over to the Little
Rock franchise as payment to Little Rock for letting the Red Sox train on
their grounds.    However invented the phrase "ground-rent man" was probably
not a real estate agent and used the term "ground-rent" under the impression
it meant "rent for using the grounds" as opposed to rent for an apartment,
lease payments for equipment, etc.

I bet the Red Sox are still kicking themselves for, uh, selling Mr. Speaker
down the river.

Maryland, so I was told by a Maryland real estate, uh, speculator (she and
her family bought up low-priced properties and rented them out, i.e. they
were to some degree "slumlords" ) is the only state to have the old-style
"ground rents."  In Maryland you can buy a piece of property by setting up a
ground rent as a sort of permanent mortgage---you agree to pay $x per month
in perpetuity.  She owned several such ground rents.  I told her she was an
authentic feudal lord, or lady.

     - Jim Landau


From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM  Sat Jun 29 20:54:59 2002
From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:54:59 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.165459.0400.TRANSLATION@BILLIONBRIDGES.COM>

> Here is a list of these things in English and Chinese:
>
> http://lostincolours.tripod.com/numbers/
>
> I can't explain the Chinese ones completely. For example, "520" = "wu er
> [ling?]" means "wo ai ni" = "I love you" (a very common one of course),
> "530" = "wu san [ling?]" means "wo xiang ni" = "I miss you", etc., so
> apparently these are at least partly phonetic (allowing a lot of leeway),
> but maybe I'm reading the zero wrong.

No, you're reading the zero right.  My take on this is that "ling" = "zero",
out of the Chinese numbers from 0 to 10, is the closest approximation
you can get of "ni" = "you" (not worrying about the final "ng").  For that
matter, the whole system is premised upon finding the words that most
resemble in pronunciation the numbers 0 to 10.  Some seem a bit of a
stretch to my ears, but then convention wins every time, no?

Interesting how it seems that for Chinese speakers the initials "n" and
"l" are more easily mixed up and/or interchangeable in verbal speech
than they are in English. Then again, I need to qualify that by saying that
my impression is based upon seven years of listening to and speaking with
Mandarin speakers in Taiwan, the vast majority of whom are bilingual in
Mandarin and Taiwanese.  Of course, in Taiwanese "you" is "li", which
would reinforce the appropriateness of "ling" = "you".

> Note "8084" which may be orthographic (= "BABY"), 'translated' as
> "bao bei" (lit., "precious object", orig. "precious shell" I think) =
> "sweetheart" or the coincidentally phonetically felicitous world-English
> "baby".

Must be, as "8084" = "ba ling ba si" wouldn't bring to mind "bao bei".

Don
_______________________
Don Rogalski and Toni Kuo
"A Billion Bridges"
Chinese<>English Translation Services
Tel: 905-308-9389
Fax: 801-881-0914 (24 hrs)
Web: www.billionbridges.com
Email: translation at billionbridges.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 29 21:14:42 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 17:14:42 EDT
Subject: Mountain Mothers & Moose Dropping; Tomazzo
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.171442.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Seward, Alaska.

MOOSE DROPPING--The second weekend in July, Talkeetna hosts an Annual Moose
Dropping Festival.  There are jokes and buttons throughout the festival such
as, "How high do we drop the moose??"

MOUNTAIN MOTHER--There is a Mountain Mother Contest at the Moose Dropping
Festival.  Women compete at several tasks that "mountain mothers" presumably
do.  (And to think that I'll have to miss this Talkeetna Moose
Dropping-Mountain Mother Festival.)

GLACIAL FLOUR--Finely ground rock.  Seen on a Parks sign at the Exit Glacier,
and not in OED.

TOMAZZO--At The Great American Bagel & Bakery in the Seattle airport were
signs, "Ask about our Tomazzo."  "What's a tomazzo?  A plain bagel dipped in
pizza sauce and topped with mozzarella cheese."  Original tomazzo $2.79,
Pepperoni tomazzo $3.59.  USPTO trademark records show first use of February
1996.

PROPS--Safire's column this Sunday declares that "props" is new word that's
sweeping the country.  He just heard it?  Just now?  How out of touch is he?
Not mentioned is Aretha Franklin's classic "R.E.S.P.E.C.T.," with the line
"give me my propers."  Amazing...Speaking of the TIMES, what does full text
have for General Tso?

MENUS MISC.
   From the Alaska Cadillac Cafe:

SAND DOLLARS--Smoke salmon cream cheese upon roasted rounds topped with red
onions for spice and color.
SHEEP PIZZA--Rosemary and garlic infused olive oil brushed over pizza bread
with mozzarella and parmesan cheeses--the house specialty.
Brew City Fries--(Beer-battered fries!--ed.)
Colony Cheese Fries
Brew City Onion Rings
Chili Cheese Fries
   PIZZA COMBOS:
HONOLULU PINEAPPLE
TRADITIONAL PEPPER
TRADITIONAL OLIVE SUPREME
PESTO VEGGIE
MEDITERRANEAN VEGGIE SUPREME
GREEK
CHICKEN FEATHERS
PEST CHICKEN
LITTLE ITALY
TACO
MATANUSKA SUNSET
ALASKA BACHELOR
YUKON HERDER
ALSKA BARBECUE
EURO-CANADIAN TOURIST--rosemary olive oil, Canaidan bacon and feta
CAVEMAN
ROCKY REACH
SPORTSMAN'S POINT


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 30 00:49:13 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 20:49:13 -0400
Subject: Query: "ground-rent man" (baseball, 1908)
In-Reply-To: <41.1f64e31b.2a4f6717@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.204913.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:40 PM -0400 6/29/02, James A. Landau wrote:
>In a message dated 06/29/2002 2:52:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>gcohen at UMR.EDU writes:
>
>>  >    April 4, 1913, p.20/3; 'Birthday Extra.  Congratulations To Tris
>>   >Speaker'; 'He became a professional ball player in 1906, when he
>>   >joined the Cleburne, Tex., team.  In 1907 he played with the Houston
>>   >team.  At the close of the season he was purchased by [the] Boston
>>   >[Red Sox] and turned over to Little Rock the following spring as
>>   >ground-rent man, the Red Sox having trained on the Little Rock
>>   >grounds.'
>
>The meaning seems clear to me.  Tris Speaker was turned over to the Little
>Rock franchise as payment to Little Rock for letting the Red Sox train on
>their grounds.    However invented the phrase "ground-rent man" was probably
>not a real estate agent and used the term "ground-rent" under the impression
>it meant "rent for using the grounds" as opposed to rent for an apartment,
>lease payments for equipment, etc.
>
>I bet the Red Sox are still kicking themselves for, uh, selling Mr. Speaker
>down the river.
>
Nah.  Speaker did play 7 full seasons (including some excellent ones)
with the Sawx from 1909 through 1915 before being moved to Cleveland,
which--though an obvious (little) rockhead move in retrospect, given
his superb subsequent years for the Indians, was completely
overshadowed by the matter of that other little contract transfer a
couple of years later. The legacy of the Curse of the Bambino (the
sale of Babe Ruth to the Yankees in 1920 to enable owner Harry Frazee
for 100K to finance the musical No No Nanette--please don't tell me
it's an urban legend) is the one from which the Olde Towne team has
not yet recovered.  Perhaps this is the year?   Naaaah.

larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 30 01:23:56 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 21:23:56 EDT
Subject: Sourdoughs, Alaska Strawberries, and SOS (Salmon on a Shingle)
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.212356.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ALASKA SOURDOUGH
by Ruth Allman (1905-1989--ed.)
192 pages, paperback, $10.95
Anchorage: Alaska Northwest Books
1976
Fifteen reprinting, 1999

   I don't know what the next DARE has for "sourdough."  Alaskans are
"sourdoughs."  It's also a term for someone who has "soured" on Alaska and
doesn't have the "dough" to leave.

Pg. 161:
   "Alaska Strawberries"
   The old Alaskan prospector facetiously tried to kid himself into enjoying
his monotonous diet of pay-streak bacon and beans-beans-beans.  He called
them: Alaska Strawberries. (...)
   Many a cheechako (newcomer) could not understand when they ordered _Alaska
Strawberries_, the waiter served a plate of _Beans_!
(I haven't yet checked DARE, RHHDAS, MOA databases for "Alaska
strawberry"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
LIFE'S A FISH AND THEN YOU FRY:
AN ALASKA SEAFOOD COOKBOOK
by Randy Bayliss
210 pages, paperback, $16.95
Anchorage: Alaska Nortwest Books
2002

Pg. 60:
   _S. O. S.: Salmon on a Shingle_
   This dish feeds huge quantities of folks for breakfast.  Make mass amounts
of white sauce...
(A tourist guide said that salmon is known as "the money fish"--ed.)

(OT:  Off to Valdez tomorrow.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 30 01:53:15 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 21:53:15 EDT
Subject: Telephone Tooth
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.215315.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Coming Soon: A 'Telephone Tooth' 
Fri Jun 28, 2:04 PM ET By THOMAS WAGNER, Associated Press Writer LONDON (AP) 
- Tired of losing your cell phone? (...)
        
Two British inventors unveiled a prototype of a device Friday that could 
solve those problems.

But there's a drawback ? your dentist would have to install it inside one of 
your molars.

Unofficially known as the "telephone tooth," the device would allow you to 
receive phone calls, listen to music, even connect to verbal sites on the 
Internet ( <A HREF="http://rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ap/ap_on_hi_te/inlinks/*http://rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?p=%22Internet%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw">news</A> - <A HREF="http://rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ap/ap_on_hi_te/inlinks/*http://rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://www.yahoo.com">external web site</A>) without anyone nearby hearing a thing. 
(...)

So far, no company has announced it is making the device. (...)
  
However, the device, also known as the "molar mobile," does not allow people 
to talk back to callers or make outgoing calls.

Auger said the "telephone tooth" is just another device designed to help 
people better cope with existing technology: like the flight suits developed 
to allow pilots make tight turns in high-speed warplanes without blacking 
out.

The "telephone tooth" would place a small device in a person's back molar 
that includes a wireless, low-frequency receiver and a gadget that turns 
audio signals into mechanical vibrations, which would pass from the tooth 
directly to the inner ear as clear sounds.

The user also would keep a tiny device outside his body to turn the cellphone 
on and off and to program it.

On Friday, people lined up at the Science Museum to try out a prototype of 
the "telephone tooth," which is officially known as the audio tooth implant. 
The crude imitation of the device included a walkie-talkie and a plastic 
cocktail stick that users placed in their mouths...
  
(But is there a tooth fairy????--ed.)


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Sun Jun 30 04:15:16 2002
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 00:15:16 -0400
Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs. Orthographic
 respellings]
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.001516.0400.>

The point Rudy is trying to make seems to me a question of abstract vs.
concrete.

IPA is abstract, which is as it should be since it is supposed to
represent the sounds obtaining in most human languages. Abstract
representations call for the use of a key in order to make the
transition from real to unreal (or abstract) and vice versa. It serves
scholarly
purposes all right.

It seems to me it is also somewhat self-serving (and intellectually
stimulating for
what it is worth) because it has a make-work quality to it. It supports
teachers, textbooks, etc.; sorry if I sound like a patron! That is why I
lovingly refer to the COBUILD
dictionaries as "the collected teachings of the lexicographers of
Birmingham." So much time and space seems wasted.

On the other hand, the popular "phonetic" transcriptions based on
English orthography are "concrete" and represent the real world. They
have no need for a key. Having to use a key is like hiring an
interpreter who is not really needed. All that is needed is reading
knowledge at the elementary (vaguely understood as Grades 6 - 8) level,
if we can
forget for the moment about illiterate undergrads and such. It is a
process of
going from the known to the unknown, but not starting from zero
knowledge. IPA use involves learning of a higher order, but the question
is, Is it cost-effective for general (not scholarly) purposes? A side
issue is, no amount of IPA can produce
the real sounds of a language, only an abstract representation of them.
Actualization of sounds as heard is still up to the user, given the
imperfections of one's personal sound equipment. Sometimes rough
justice, as in popular phonetics, is better than justice in the
abstract.

Re "root" and "rowt" to represent <route>, I see no problem if you
consider the realities of the situation, namely, sounds in context.
Words like <bellow, blow, flow, hallow, show> normally occur at the end
of words.  If the normal pronunciation can be accepted as the regular
pattern of English orthography, then <show> and other words become the
exception. (Add also words like <acknowledge>) These, in my view, should
be dealt with separately and represented as (SHOH),(ak.NOL.ij) etc.
which are phonemically quite exact. The syllable "ak," for example,
cannot be pronounced by a sixth grader as anything but the IPA ae
digraph + k.
Being unambiguous and consistent is important, but at what price, is the
question for me.

Just a few private thoughts.

TOM PAIKEDAY,
(lexicographer who used IPA in the Sixties, IPA-cum-diacritics in the
Seventies, and now uses a popular phonetic system; cf.
www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index.htm - still in preparation, the
phonetics awaiting insertion)

P.S. I am still casting about for printable symbols that are compatible
with
WORD or the actual processing software (Notepad?) used for text
input in website creation. Maybe there isn't any. Cf.
"lek-s&-'k?-gr&-fE" (M-W's "lexicography").
Scanning in of the text is one alternative,
I suppose). I have been using WordPerfect since before WORD came on the
scene, which is how I seem to be handicapped. Help requested.

Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>
> One of the problems in trying to use English orthographic re-spellings to
> indicate pronunciation is that regional pronunciations vary considerably,
> and of course there is considerable difference cross-linguistically in the
> pronunciation values attached to particular letters or combinations. This
> is why the International Phonetic Association was formed in the 19th c.,
> and why linguists use more-or-less consistent transcriptions to represent
> pronunciations. Americans for over 150 years have been shielded by
> dictionary-makers from confronting and learning a consistent phonemic
> representation, but British dictionaries have for some time utilized a
> version of the IPA system, and presumably British school-children learn
> this system, and know how to interpret it in using a dictionary. When I
> taught in Taiwan 30 years ago, I found that even 8th graders who were
> studying English as a foreign language, and struggling with the very
> concept of an alphabetic system for writing the language, were also
> expected to learn a "broad" IPA phonemic transcription at the same time.
> American innocence in this area, even after over 50 years of efforts by
> linguists, remains regrettable, and a reflection on our educational
> system.
>
>         Representing the different pronunciations of <route> as "root" and
> "rowt" runs afoul of the problem that the word <root> can be pronounced to
> rhyme with <foot> or <boot>, and the respelling "rowt" can be interpreted
> as reflecting the vowel of <rote> or of <rout>. A phonemic transcription
> of /ruwt/ (or /ru:t/, as some might prefer) vs /rawt/ (or again, some
> might aesthetically prefer /raUt/) has the value of being unambiguous and
> consistent (the variant transcriptions are equally clear and consistent).
>
>         Rudy


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 30 13:23:04 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 09:23:04 -0400
Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs. Orthographic
 respellings]
In-Reply-To: <3D1E85D4.FE8AB35B@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.092304.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am amazed at this very basic linguistic confusion.

Spelling (usually phonemic - and even morphophonemic, as SPE taught
us - rather than phonetic) is clearly abstract, if by that we mean
"divorced from the acoustic reality." A phonetic representation is by
contrast concrete (whether it is IPA or the broad phonetic
representation represented by respellings, e.g., "rawt" to indicate
how some folk pronounce "route" - pronounced /route/ by nobody except
those who read English but do not known it, although I had a friend
in grad school who once pronounced "creature" /kreature).

Of course almost all spelling systems have their their roots (sorry!)
in "sound," but they almost certainly have their roots in phonemic
(abstract) representations, not representations which represent
acoustic-articulatory reality, the goal of phonetic representations.

There is indeed a contrast here (and I do not want o suggest that the
mental representations of phonemes are not "concrete" in some CogSci
way), but surely the words abstract and concrete are reversed here so
far as their ordinary meanings are concerned.

dInIs (pointing to the "spelling" of his name)

>The point Rudy is trying to make seems to me a question of abstract vs.
>concrete.
>
>IPA is abstract, which is as it should be since it is supposed to
>represent the sounds obtaining in most human languages. Abstract
>representations call for the use of a key in order to make the
>transition from real to unreal (or abstract) and vice versa. It serves
>scholarly
>purposes all right.
>
>It seems to me it is also somewhat self-serving (and intellectually
>stimulating for
>what it is worth) because it has a make-work quality to it. It supports
>teachers, textbooks, etc.; sorry if I sound like a patron! That is why I
>lovingly refer to the COBUILD
>dictionaries as "the collected teachings of the lexicographers of
>Birmingham." So much time and space seems wasted.
>
>On the other hand, the popular "phonetic" transcriptions based on
>English orthography are "concrete" and represent the real world. They
>have no need for a key. Having to use a key is like hiring an
>interpreter who is not really needed. All that is needed is reading
>knowledge at the elementary (vaguely understood as Grades 6 - 8) level,
>if we can
>forget for the moment about illiterate undergrads and such. It is a
>process of
>going from the known to the unknown, but not starting from zero
>knowledge. IPA use involves learning of a higher order, but the question
>is, Is it cost-effective for general (not scholarly) purposes? A side
>issue is, no amount of IPA can produce
>the real sounds of a language, only an abstract representation of them.
>Actualization of sounds as heard is still up to the user, given the
>imperfections of one's personal sound equipment. Sometimes rough
>justice, as in popular phonetics, is better than justice in the
>abstract.
>
>Re "root" and "rowt" to represent <route>, I see no problem if you
>consider the realities of the situation, namely, sounds in context.
>Words like <bellow, blow, flow, hallow, show> normally occur at the end
>of words.  If the normal pronunciation can be accepted as the regular
>pattern of English orthography, then <show> and other words become the
>exception. (Add also words like <acknowledge>) These, in my view, should
>be dealt with separately and represented as (SHOH),(ak.NOL.ij) etc.
>which are phonemically quite exact. The syllable "ak," for example,
>cannot be pronounced by a sixth grader as anything but the IPA ae
>digraph + k.
>Being unambiguous and consistent is important, but at what price, is the
>question for me.
>
>Just a few private thoughts.
>
>TOM PAIKEDAY,
>(lexicographer who used IPA in the Sixties, IPA-cum-diacritics in the
>Seventies, and now uses a popular phonetic system; cf.
>www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index.htm - still in preparation, the
>phonetics awaiting insertion)
>
>P.S. I am still casting about for printable symbols that are compatible
>with
>WORD or the actual processing software (Notepad?) used for text
>input in website creation. Maybe there isn't any. Cf.
>"lek-s&-'k?-gr&-fE" (M-W's "lexicography").
>Scanning in of the text is one alternative,
>I suppose). I have been using WordPerfect since before WORD came on the
>scene, which is how I seem to be handicapped. Help requested.
>
>Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>>
>>  One of the problems in trying to use English orthographic re-spellings to
>>  indicate pronunciation is that regional pronunciations vary considerably,
>>  and of course there is considerable difference cross-linguistically in the
>>  pronunciation values attached to particular letters or combinations. This
>>  is why the International Phonetic Association was formed in the 19th c.,
>>  and why linguists use more-or-less consistent transcriptions to represent
>>  pronunciations. Americans for over 150 years have been shielded by
>>  dictionary-makers from confronting and learning a consistent phonemic
>>  representation, but British dictionaries have for some time utilized a
>>  version of the IPA system, and presumably British school-children learn
>>  this system, and know how to interpret it in using a dictionary. When I
>>  taught in Taiwan 30 years ago, I found that even 8th graders who were
>>  studying English as a foreign language, and struggling with the very
>>  concept of an alphabetic system for writing the language, were also
>>  expected to learn a "broad" IPA phonemic transcription at the same time.
>>  American innocence in this area, even after over 50 years of efforts by
>>  linguists, remains regrettable, and a reflection on our educational
>>  system.
>>
>>          Representing the different pronunciations of <route> as "root" and
>>  "rowt" runs afoul of the problem that the word <root> can be pronounced to
>>  rhyme with <foot> or <boot>, and the respelling "rowt" can be interpreted
>>  as reflecting the vowel of <rote> or of <rout>. A phonemic transcription
>>  of /ruwt/ (or /ru:t/, as some might prefer) vs /rawt/ (or again, some
>>  might aesthetically prefer /raUt/) has the value of being unambiguous and
>>  consistent (the variant transcriptions are equally clear and consistent).
>>
>>          Rudy

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Jun 30 13:15:52 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 08:15:52 -0500
Subject: Query: "ground-rent man" (baseball, 1908)
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.081552.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    My thanx to Jim Landau and Laurence Horn for their thoughts on
"ground-rent man." For the sake of completeness, here is the entire
item in which the "ground-rent" attestation appears:
        "Birthday Extra. Congratulations To Tris Speaker. Tristram
Speaker, star outfielder of the Boston Red Sox and one of the
greatest players in baseball, was born in Hubbard City, Tex., April
4, 1888.  He became a professional ball player in 1906, when he
joined the Cleburne, Tex., team.  In 1907 he played with the Houston
team.  At the close of the season he was purchased by Boston and
turned over to Little Rock the following spring as ground-rent man,
the Red Sox having trained on the Little Rock grounds.  At the close
of the Southern League season Speaker was repurchased by Boston for
$500 and joined the Red Sox late in the season of 1908.  Speaker is
one of the greatest hitters in baseball, having had a batting average
of .300 or better each season since leaving the Cleburne team.  In
the American League batting averages for last season he stood third
in the list with a mark of .383.  During the world's series last fall
he was voted the most useful player to his team in the American
League and was presented with an automobile in recognition of his
clever work, both as batter and fielder."
*********
    Remove Jim Landau's thought about the Red Sox kicking themselves
for turning over Speaker to Little Rock, and his suggestion on
"ground-rent" seems valid. What amazes me is the idea of a team
paying in kind (vs. cash) for use of spring-training grounds.

Gerald Cohen

>Date:         Sat, 29 Jun 2002 20:49:13 -0400
>From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: Query: "ground-rent man" (baseball, 1908)
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>At 3:40 PM -0400 6/29/02, James A. Landau wrote:
>>In a message dated 06/29/2002 2:52:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>>gcohen at UMR.EDU writes:
>>
>>>  >    April 4, 1913, p.20/3; 'Birthday Extra.  Congratulations To Tris
>>>   >Speaker'; 'He became a professional ball player in 1906, when he
>>>   >joined the Cleburne, Tex., team.  In 1907 he played with the Houston
>>>   >team.  At the close of the season he was purchased by [the] Boston
>>>   >[Red Sox] and turned over to Little Rock the following spring as
>>>   >ground-rent man, the Red Sox having trained on the Little Rock
>>>   >grounds.'
>>
>>The meaning seems clear to me.  Tris Speaker was turned over to the Little
>>Rock franchise as payment to Little Rock for letting the Red Sox train on
>>their grounds.    However invented the phrase "ground-rent man" was probably
>>not a real estate agent and used the term "ground-rent" under the impression
>>it meant "rent for using the grounds" as opposed to rent for an apartment,
>>lease payments for equipment, etc.
>>
>>I bet the Red Sox are still kicking themselves for, uh, selling Mr. Speaker
>>down the river.
>>
>Nah.  Speaker did play 7 full seasons (including some excellent ones)
>with the Sawx from 1909 through 1915 before being moved to Cleveland,
>which--though an obvious (little) rockhead move in retrospect, given
>his superb subsequent years for the Indians, was completely
>overshadowed by the matter of that other little contract transfer a
>couple of years later. The legacy of the Curse of the Bambino (the
>sale of Babe Ruth to the Yankees in 1920 to enable owner Harry Frazee
>for 100K to finance the musical No No Nanette--please don't tell me
>it's an urban legend) is the one from which the Olde Towne team has
>not yet recovered.  Perhaps this is the year?   Naaaah.
>
>larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 30 13:57:16 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 09:57:16 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
In-Reply-To: <009e01c21faf$3bab11c0$6595e440@billionone>
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.095716.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... My take on this is that "ling" = "zero" ... is the closest
>approximation you can get of "ni" = "you" (not worrying about the final
>"ng"). .... Interesting how it seems that for Chinese speakers the
>initials "n" and "l" are more easily mixed up and/or interchangeable ...
>than they are in English. ... Of course, in Taiwanese "you" is "li", which
>would reinforce the appropriateness of "ling" = "you".

I sure do suspect that it might. I wonder whether the acceptability of the
terminal nasal might also be reinforced, by the existence of the 'Mandarin'
'honorific' "you" ("nin").

On the other hand, on the Web I see "1" used for "ni" in "1487" = "yi si ba
qi" for "ni shi bai chi" = "you are an idiot". Different nerds, different
notions, as they say (^_^). I'm sure the tone is involved at least
sometimes, too.

These things are cute, analogous to those restaurant codes ("86" etc.) and
those CB radio codes ("10-4" etc.).

Next time I get annoyed in traffic, I'll say "Fourteen-eighty-seven": safer
(I guess, at least here in Pittsburgh) than my usual remarks, and better
for the kiddies' ears.

Thanks for satisfying my/our curiosity.

-- Doug Wilson


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 30 16:27:59 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:27:59 -0400
Subject: Query: "ground-rent man" (baseball, 1908)
In-Reply-To: <p04310100b9448b3aac75@[131.151.65.9]>
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.122759.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:15 AM -0500 6/30/02, Gerald Cohen wrote [quoting a contemporary
report on Tris Speaker]:
>   During the world's series last fall
>he was voted the most useful player to his team in the American
>League and was presented with an automobile in recognition of his
>clever work, both as batter and fielder."
>*********

I don't know about cleverness, but he is still generally recognized
as possibly the outstanding fielder among all centerfielders in the
history of the game, competing for the honor with DiMaggio and Mays.
Great fielders in Red Sox history have been few and far between,
although Joe DiMag's brother Dom was another fine ballhawk out in CF
at Fenway.  (I'll steer clear of what comes out of left, or right,
field.)

L


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 30 16:42:20 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:42:20 EDT
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.124220.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/30/2002 10:02:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
douglas at NB.NET writes:

> These things are cute, analogous to those restaurant codes ("86" etc.) and
>  those CB radio codes ("10-4" etc.).

How many restaurant "codes" are numeric, e.g. "86"?

On the other hand, the "10-" codes are numerous and are NOT slang.  In fact
they long antedate CB radio.  I don't know (does someone else on the list?)
where they originated, but they were widely adopted by police departments by
the 1960's.  In fact there was a 1950's television show, entitled (I think)
"Highway Patrol" about the California Highway Patrol in which the 10- codes
were extensively used.

I recall reading an article by a police officer ca. 1969 in which he
discovered, to his surprise, when joining a new department that the 10- codes
were NOT identical to those he was used to.  Apparently the 10- code, like
proto-Indo-European, has developed geographical dialects.

One might argue that the 10- codes were picked up by CB-ers from the TV show.
 Before CB became fashionable and widely discussed (during the 1974 version
of the Energy Crisis), it was used by truck drivers, who quite likely picked
it up from the police with whom they had numerous chances to, shall we say,
exchange shop talk.

The ones best known to the general public:
    10-4          OK
    10-20        present location
    10-200      still another euphemism for certain inescapable body functions

>From 10-200 we get the expression "home 20" meaning "where you are from".

         - Jim Landau


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 30 17:17:36 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 13:17:36 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
In-Reply-To: <197.9049a3b.2a508eec@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.131736.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Under what definition  of slang are such items (emphatically even) NOT slang?

dInIs



>In a message dated 06/30/2002 10:02:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>douglas at NB.NET writes:
>
>>  These things are cute, analogous to those restaurant codes ("86" etc.) and
>>   those CB radio codes ("10-4" etc.).
>
>How many restaurant "codes" are numeric, e.g. "86"?
>
>On the other hand, the "10-" codes are numerous and are NOT slang.  In fact
>they long antedate CB radio.  I don't know (does someone else on the list?)
>where they originated, but they were widely adopted by police departments by
>the 1960's.  In fact there was a 1950's television show, entitled (I think)
>"Highway Patrol" about the California Highway Patrol in which the 10- codes
>were extensively used.
>
>I recall reading an article by a police officer ca. 1969 in which he
>discovered, to his surprise, when joining a new department that the 10- codes
>were NOT identical to those he was used to.  Apparently the 10- code, like
>proto-Indo-European, has developed geographical dialects.
>
>One might argue that the 10- codes were picked up by CB-ers from the TV show.
>  Before CB became fashionable and widely discussed (during the 1974 version
>of the Energy Crisis), it was used by truck drivers, who quite likely picked
>it up from the police with whom they had numerous chances to, shall we say,
>exchange shop talk.
>
>The ones best known to the general public:
>     10-4          OK
>     10-20        present location
>     10-200      still another euphemism for certain inescapable body functions
>
>>>From 10-200 we get the expression "home 20" meaning "where you are from".
>
>          - Jim Landau

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Jun 30 17:27:38 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:27:38 -0500
Subject: "clever" (= skillful, adroit)
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.122738.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    My thanx again to Laurence Horn for his baseball insights. But
just as a clarification on the 1913 term "clever" as used in
reference to Tris Speaker's playing, the term does not have its
present meaning. Rather, it means "skillful, adroit."

   Right below my signoff is Larry's message, followed by the entry
for "clever" in my _Dictionary of 1913 Baseball and Other Lingo_,
vol. 1.

Gerald Cohen


>At 12:27 PM -0400 6/30/02, Laurence Horn wrote:
>From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: Query: "ground-rent man" (baseball, 1908)
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>At 8:15 AM -0500 6/30/02, Gerald Cohen wrote [quoting a contemporary
>report on Tris Speaker]:
>>   During the world's series last fall
>>he was voted the most useful player to his team in the American
>>League and was presented with an automobile in recognition of his
>>clever work, both as batter and fielder."
>>*********
>
>I don't know about cleverness, but he is still generally recognized
>as possibly the outstanding fielder among all centerfielders in the
>history of the game, competing for the honor with DiMaggio and Mays.
>Great fielders in Red Sox history have been few and far between,
>although Joe DiMag's brother Dom was another fine ballhawk out in CF
>at Fenway.  (I'll steer clear of what comes out of left, or right,
>field.)
>
>L


(from: _Dictionary of 1913 Baseball and Other Lingo_, vol. 1, by G. Cohen):

CLEVER 'skillful, adroit'--Feb. 13, 1913, p.16/3; 'Birthday Extra'.
Congratulations to [Boxer] Willie Ritchie': 'The following May Richie
boxed Wolgast four rounds and the clever showing he made in that bout
earned for him a chance to fight for the championship.'
Feb. 17, 1913, p.15/4; 'Birthday Extra. Congratulations To "Steve"
Evans': 'Louis (Steve) Evans, the clever outfielder of the St. Louis
National league Club, celebrates the twenty-eighth anniversary of his
birth today.'
Feb. 20,1913, p.19/4-5; 'Boots And Bingles'; col. 4: 'Walter [Mullin]
is a clever pitcher, who has been making a name for himself on the
sandlots of Toledo,....'
March 12, 1913, p.19/1-2; 'Del Howard May Manage Seals From...Bench';
col. 2: 'Both did clever work in preventing the Pitchers from
scoring.'-- (Full quote at Regulars.)
April 4, 1913, p.20/3; 'Birthday Extra. Congratulations to Tris
Speaker': 'During the world's series last fall he was voted the most
useful player to his team in the American League and was presented
with an automobile in recognition of his clever work, both as batter
and fielder.'
April 15, 1913, p.14/2-3; 'Photographs Excavated From Catacombs of
Sport, No. 87--"Brick" Devereaux': 'As an amateur Devereaux pitched,
but he was too clever a base runner and too nifty a hitter and too
speedy an infielder to give his time to curving.'
April 15, 1913, p.14/5; 'Results of Amateur Baseball';  (Redwood
game): 'The game was featured by the clever pitching of Tom Keating.'
April 24, 1913, p.16/5-7; 'Happy Bill Hogan Looms Up....'; col. 5:
'...turned several clever tricks.' --(Full quote at turn a trick.)
May 3, 1913, p.10/1; 'Wolves' Star Pitchers Hit All Over Lot': 'He
was been doing some very clever hitting for his team since he has
been playing regularly.'
May 8, 1913, p.14/1; 'Come-Back Stars Seem To Lose All Their Form':
'"Nagle, a mighty clever pitcher, went up [to the majors], and what
has been his record since he came back?"'
May 16, 1913, p.18/2-3; 'Photographs Excavated From Catacombs of
Sport, No. 112--Two Old Time Seals': 'Harry Kane, whose right name
was Cohen, was an eccentric character but a clever pitcher when he
had his mind set on his work.'
May 20, 1913, p.15/2; 'Birthday Extra. Congratulations To Eddie
Grant': 'Edward L. Grant, the clever infielder of the Cincinnati
Reds, celebrates the thirtieth anniversary of his birth today.'


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 30 17:53:46 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 13:53:46 -0400
Subject: PFD, Pioneer homes; Duckfarts (cocktail)
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.135346.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Seward.  I go to Valdez in about five minutes.

PFD--Personal Flotation Device.  (Everything's a "Personal" acronym--ed.)

PIONEER HOMES--Old age homes in Alaska.

MOOSE TRACKS--The ice cream here is vanilla, fudge, and peanut butter cups.

DUCKFART--My bus driver is also a bartender.  He comes from Albany, NY.  He says he serves Duckfarts here, but not there.  He says it's like a B-52, with one ingredient (Grand Marnier) different.
   Crown Royal, Baileys, Kaluha.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sun Jun 30 17:59:40 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 10:59:40 -0700
Subject: Smoke mouth
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.105940.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In several TV interviews with the spokesperson for the fire-fighting
effort in the Rodeo fire in northern Arizona, and in local TV news
coverage, the term "smoke mouth" has been used for the complex of
respiratory reactions that firefighters have had to the prolonged exposure
to smoke, ash, heat, and low humidity. I haven't checked, but wonder
whether this term has made it into any current dictionaries.

        Rudy


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 30 18:35:10 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 14:35:10 EDT
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.143510.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/30/2002 1:18:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes:

> Under what definition  of slang are such items (emphatically even) NOT
slang?

Such terms are not slang, or as I stated, are NOT slang, when they are
published in a codebook which the employer requires the employees to use
while on duty.  While I do not know who invented the 10- code, I do know that
any number of police departments have required their radio-carrying officers
to use the local variation of the 10- code book.

However, the phrase "home 20" is slang.

I use the word "jargon" to mean "the necessary technical vocabulary of a
particular activity".  Some jargon terms are officially imposed (e.g. the 10-
code) and some develop by a slang-like process, but both are necessary to the
in-group.  Example: the word "homer" in baseball.  With the meaning "home
run" it is slang.  With the meaning "an umpire who favors the home team" it
is necessary technical vocabulary, in this case necessary to avoid having to
use an entire dependent clause to describe an unfair umpire.  (Is there a
term for an umpire who favors the visiting team?)

The 10- code is therefore an example of officially-imosed jargon, at least
with reference to police officers who use it.  CB-ers copied it from the
police and as far as I know use it straight (except for "home 20") rather
than as an ongoing fountain for new slang.

            - Jim Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 30 18:45:40 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 14:45:40 EDT
Subject: Sourdoughs, Alaska Strawberries, and SOS (Salmon on a Shingle)
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.144540.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 06/29/2002 9:24:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

>    _S. O. S.: Salmon on a Shingle_
>     This dish feeds huge quantities of folks for breakfast.  Make mass
> amounts
>  of white sauce...


Sounds like somebody's parody of "Shit on a Shingle" (also abbreviated
"S.O.S."), which is the common term for that old army delicacy, creamed
chipped beef on toast (which does have a good deal of white, or whitish,
sauce in it).

                  - Jim Landau


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Sun Jun 30 18:53:21 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 19:53:21 +0100
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.195321.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The 'ten codes' are indeed jargon (another definition for which I would
suggest is professional or occupational slang). Though 10-4 does seem to
have moved into slang, as in

1990 Morgan _Homeboy_ 5: She was a big Ten Four for the rest of the evening
1996 P. Cornwell _Cause of Death_ (1997) 25: Everything ten-four?

where it means simply 'ready' and/or 'prepared.'

The current example de luxe of this kind of crossover is not a 10-Code but
'187', in legal terminology the California penal code for homicide and used
in rap/hip-hop to mean 1. a homicide; 2. (in weakened form) any type of
drama or crisis; 3. one who has been targeted for assassination.

Another such, though much less common, is '459': 1. a burglary; 2. to steal
(Calif. penal code section 459 dealing with burglary or intrusive behavior)

Jonathon Green


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 30 19:09:43 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 15:09:43 -0400
Subject: "clever" (= skillful, adroit)
In-Reply-To: <p04310100b944ec8adfc1@[131.151.65.166]>
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.150943.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:27 PM -0500 6/30/02, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>    My thanx again to Laurence Horn for his baseball insights. But
>just as a clarification on the 1913 term "clever" as used in
>reference to Tris Speaker's playing, the term does not have its
>present meaning. Rather, it means "skillful, adroit."
>
It's actually a very interesting word in terms of subtle semantic
shifts.  I'm aware of (some of) the differences between contemporary
British and U.S. applications of "clever", but hadn't realized the
existence of the baseball application for 'skillful' in earlier U.S.
usage you highlight.  Thanks.

Larry


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 30 20:05:49 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:05:49 -0400
Subject: An initial 4A  N2...?
In-Reply-To: <13c.10a2faa3.2a50a95e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.160549.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I don't follow this, especially since the "technical vocabulary" you
>cite is then restricted to "with reference to the Xs who use it."
>What about the rest of us?

More importantly, if anyone publishes a book which employees must
learn words or terms from have those items "lost" their slang status
by that means alone?

That "homer" (home-team favoring unmpire) is not slang is very odd to
me. It is not "necessary" in any sense except that those who deal
with baseball must know it. I think there is a confusion here of
slang which is slang but is jargon at the same time technical speech,
or jargon, which is not slang. And history, of course, can always
muddy things.

dInIs



>In a message dated 06/30/2002 1:18:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes:
>
>>  Under what definition  of slang are such items (emphatically even) NOT
>slang?
>
>Such terms are not slang, or as I stated, are NOT slang, when they are
>published in a codebook which the employer requires the employees to use
>while on duty.  While I do not know who invented the 10- code, I do know that
>any number of police departments have required their radio-carrying officers
>to use the local variation of the 10- code book.
>
>However, the phrase "home 20" is slang.
>
>I use the word "jargon" to mean "the necessary technical vocabulary of a
>particular activity".  Some jargon terms are officially imposed (e.g. the 10-
>code) and some develop by a slang-like process, but both are necessary to the
>in-group.  Example: the word "homer" in baseball.  With the meaning "home
>run" it is slang.  With the meaning "an umpire who favors the home team" it
>is necessary technical vocabulary, in this case necessary to avoid having to
>use an entire dependent clause to describe an unfair umpire.  (Is there a
>term for an umpire who favors the visiting team?)
>
>The 10- code is therefore an example of officially-imosed jargon, at least
>with reference to police officers who use it.  CB-ers copied it from the
>police and as far as I know use it straight (except for "home 20") rather
>than as an ongoing fountain for new slang.
>
>             - Jim Landau

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Sun Jun 30 21:12:19 2002
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 17:12:19 -0400
Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs. Orthographic
 respellings]
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.171219.0400.>

To answer a couple of questions raised by Mark and Dennis:

Mark: "How is this set of rules, abstracted and *regularized* from
English
orthography, not also a "key" to be learned?"

Good question. Answer: A literate person is
supposed to have already learned the common English spellings. That's
his key to using an orthographic respelling; no extra learning is
involved. But when you have a key, whether IPA-based or orthographically
based, unnecessary effort is involved. For example, is it any use to lay
down in a key that "ahr" is to be pronounced as in "arm, cart, bar"
(Oxford American)?

The rest of Mark's paragraph below, and Dennis's, in my view, has mainly
scholarly/academic value. In "phonetics" for the masses, we stick to the
essentials. However, speaking from personal experience, IPA practice
(esp. transcription) is also good training in thinking clearly about the
sounds of a language. But you can't deny that it is learning a new
language
for decoding another language.

Dennis says, "A phonetic representation is by contrast concrete. . . ."
That raises the question of what is concrete and what is
abstract. I think phonetics and individual examples of it are both
abstract rather than concrete. Don't concrete things belong to the real
sensory world, abstractions existing in the mind? The word "route,"
whether we give its pronunciation as (root, long "oo") or in some more
succinct way, as in IPA or as (root) with a diacritic over the "oo,"
both phonemically and phonetically are abstract, one being less
abstract than the other. A spelling-based keyless pronunciation system
is the least abstract of all. The concrete thing is the "route" we take
on
terra firma. Abstractions start arguments, concrete (not concrete
concrete!) settles them.

TOM PAIKEDAY (pointing to the spelling of his name, the first syllable
of which is not good orthography, but I didn't do it! Anyone who cares
please say PYE- not PAY-).

Mark A Mandel wrote:
>
> On Sun, 30 Jun 2002, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
>
>         [...]
> #IPA is abstract, which is as it should be since it is supposed to
> #represent the sounds obtaining in most human languages. Abstract
> #representations call for the use of a key in order to make the
> #transition from real to unreal (or abstract) and vice versa. It serves
> #scholarly purposes all right.
>         [...]
>
> #On the other hand, the popular "phonetic" transcriptions based on
> #English orthography are "concrete" and represent the real world. They
> #have no need for a key. Having to use a key is like hiring an
> #interpreter who is not really needed. All that is needed is reading
> #knowledge at the elementary (vaguely understood as Grades 6 - 8)
> #level, if we can forget for the moment about illiterate undergrads and
> #such.
>         [...]
>
> #Re "root" and "rowt" to represent <route>, I see no problem if you
> #consider the realities of the situation, namely, sounds in context.
> #Words like <bellow, blow, flow, hallow, show> normally occur at the end
> #of words.  If the normal pronunciation can be accepted as the regular
> #pattern of English orthography, then <show> and other words become the
> #exception. (Add also words like <acknowledge>) These, in my view, should
> #be dealt with separately and represented as (SHOH),(ak.NOL.ij) etc.
> #which are phonemically quite exact.

How is this set of rules, abstracted and *regularized* from English
orthography, not also a "key" to be learned? This particular paragraph,
for /aU/, is not bad, but what about the ambiguity in the respelling of
the other member of this pair, <oo> = /U/ ~ /u/ before final <t>? Beyond
that, how do you handle dialectal neutralizations, e.g., conveying
/open-o/ to a speaker who neutralizes it with /a/?

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguist at Large

Subject:
                   Re: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs.
Orthographic respellings]
           Date:
                   Sun, 30 Jun 2002 09:23:04 -0400
          From:
                   "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at pilot.msu.edu>
              To:
                   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU, t.paikeday at sympatico.ca
 References:
                   1 , 2
I am amazed at this very basic linguistic confusion.

Spelling (usually phonemic - and even morphophonemic, as SPE taught
us - rather than phonetic) is clearly abstract, if by that we mean
"divorced from the acoustic reality." A phonetic representation is by
contrast concrete (whether it is IPA or the broad phonetic
representation represented by respellings, e.g., "rawt" to indicate
how some folk pronounce "route" - pronounced /route/ by nobody except
those who read English but do not known it, although I had a friend
in grad school who once pronounced "creature" /kreature).

Of course almost all spelling systems have their their roots (sorry!)
in "sound," but they almost certainly have their roots in phonemic
(abstract) representations, not representations which represent
acoustic-articulatory reality, the goal of phonetic representations.

There is indeed a contrast here (and I do not want o suggest that the
mental representations of phonemes are not "concrete" in some CogSci
way), but surely the words abstract and concrete are reversed here so
far as their ordinary meanings are concerned.

dInIs (pointing to the "spelling" of his name)


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sun Jun 30 23:37:17 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:37:17 -0700
Subject: Next store
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.163717.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One of my former students sent the message below confirming the earlier
story I forwarded about a NYC student who wrote "next store" when the
instructor assumed "next door" was meant. This shows that the usage is not
just idiosyncratic. Fieldworkers from outside NYC would have to be careful
about imposing the wrong interpretation on the phonetic sequence.

        Rudy


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:42:32 EDT
From: DeniseMKenney at aol.com
To: rtroike at u.arizona.edu
Subject: (no subject)


       I had to get back to you about the "next store" thing.  I say that to
this day because when I was a kid we lived over a beauty salon on 8th Av. My
married sister lived "next store" over the candy store.  I never realized
what I was saying because, of course, everyone in Brooklyn speaks the right
way.  Don't unnerstand why you guys don't get it.  Thanks for the insight.
Denise