From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Dec 1 02:15:46 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 21:15:46 -0500 Subject: Earlier Examples of _Clam_ 'Dollar'? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 04:25:22PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > HDAS's earliest example of _clam_ 'dollar' is dated 1886. Can Barry, > Jonathon, Tom, Joanne, or anyone else supply anything earlier than this? I can't (but thanks for asking), but I do have an 1865 for _clam_ 'vulva or vagina', antedating HDAS by 50 years or so.... Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 1 03:54:00 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:54:00 -0500 Subject: Fungi (1940) and Virgin Islands cuisine (1961) Message-ID: More recording of Virgin Islands cuisine. September 1940, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE, "The American Virgins" by DuBose Heyward and Daisy Reck, pg. 273+. (Heyward was the South Carolina author responsible for the masterpiece PORGY AND BESS. This was one of his last writings--ed.) Opposite Page 280, Color Plate V caption: A few of the islanders raise goats for their milk. On St. Croix graze herds of long-horned cattle. Chief native dish is _okra-fungi_, made of okra and corn meal. Pg. 306, col. 2: At night, passing an estate village, the visitor will hear the raucous rhythms of a native "scratchy band" and the shuffle of dancing feet. February 1956, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE: Pg. 230, col. 1: With Ridge Folk I watched an island fisherman lift his pots in choppy Europa Bay. A flopping, shimmering rainbow spilled into his skiff--vivid parrotfish, which the islanders call "goot-too," and scarlet squirrelfish; boxfish and lancet-armed "blue doctors," or surgeon-fish; harlequin Nassau groupers and an old-wife, the brilliant queen triggerfish, which the natives believe is occasionally poisonous. THE VIRGIN ISLANDS AND THEIR PEOPLE by J. Antonio Jarvis Philadelphia: Dorrance & Company 1944 Pg. 29: For the most part, marlin and swordfish give more pleasure than sharks, but some people like to catch "nurses" (baby sharks) and tell about the larger ones that got away. Pg. 41: Hermit crabs, commonly called "soldier crabs," are often found at night crawling through the city streets on their way to the hills where they seek fresh water. THE COMPLETE HANDBOOK OF THE VIRGIN ISLANDS by Stuart Murray New York: Duell, SLoan and Pearce 1951 Pp. 118-122 (Plants and fish of the islands--ed.) Pg. 169: VIRGIN ISLANDS RUM RECIPES Virgin Pineapple Dream Fizz... Virgin Miss Clara... Virgin Zombie... Virgin Planter's Punch No. 1... Pg. 170: Sly Virgin... Bluebeard Red Sheet... Virgin No. 2... Virgin Daiquiri... Virgin Old Maid... Virgin Glow... Virgin Passion... Virgin Sherry... Virgin Hold Fast, Martha!... Virgin Me Eye!... Pg. 171: Virgin No. 1... Virgin Black Beauty... Virgin Dry Martini... (Oh, those tame old drink-naming days. There's probably a "Virgin Screaming Orgasm" served there now--ed.) VIRGIN ISLANDS by George T. Eggleston Toronto: D. Van Nostrand Company, Inc. 1959 Pg. 171: St. Croix has been called the "Connecticut of the Caribbean." This is partly because so many people from Connecticut have come to St. Croix to spend their winter holidays--and so many who have come to play, have bought and decided to stay. But also parts of the island look very much like Connecticut. (There's white clam pizza? Yalies?--ed.) THE VIRGINS: MAGIC ISLANDS by Jeanne Perkins Harman New York: Appleton-Century-Crofts, Inc. 1961 Second Printing February 1962 A whole chapter on food, with complete recipes! Pg. 4: St. Thomians, who like bustling shops, a harbor welcoming ships of all nations, and a strong international flavor, dismiss St. John as "the place old people go (Pg. 5--ed.) to visit their parents." St. Johnians counter by calling St. Thomas "a sunny place for shady people." Spacious, proper-Bostonian St. Croix takes no particular exception to being called "the Connecticut of the Caribbean," but prefers its own self-analysis: "Were the Virgin Islands Florida, St. Croix would be Palm Beach." Pg. 125: Chapter 9. FOOD Pg. 129: _Gundi_, a delicious concoction of smoked herring, diced beets, boiled potatoes and hard-boiled eggs, is an essential to a gala Holy Week celebration as turkey is on Thanksgiving. In St. Croix, _maufe_ is the festival dish. Many combinations of "ingreasements" (ingredients) are attributed magical properties as part of the obdeiah cult as it was practiced. Pg. 129: _Kallaloo_, which gets its name from the spinach-like native vegetable which it contains, is a sort of West Indian bouillabaise (Pg. 130--ed.) which is to St. Thomas what beans are to Boston. Instead of John Doe, for instance, the nameless Mr. Everyman is John Kallaloo in the Virgin Islands. Pg. 130: Highly recommended as a cure for husbands who won't stay home nights is "stay home sauce." The use of stay home sauce, which is made from "bush," (Virgin Islandese for spinach, turnip tops, and other greens), is not punishable by law, despite the stringent regulations on the books regarding wifely conduct, which provide, among other things, that she must "obey her husband in all ways." Pg. 131: To make a welcome visitor return to the Islands, just feed him pigeon pea soup. Turtle steak supposedly promotes virility, as does the juice of the soursop, and there are other carefully guarded secret foods believed to be equally effective. Pg. 133: For the experimentally minded reader, here are instructions for creating some typical Virgin Islands dishes, many of which have been tested in the kitchens of famed _Gourmet_ magazine in conjunction with an article on island cuisine by this author: KALLALOO... GOLDEN GROVE RAGOUT... Pg. 134: FUNGI... MAUFE... Pg. 135: BAKED FISH EDDIE... POOFTIES... Pg. 136: GUNDI... COCONUT APPETIZERS... Pg. 137: SAFARI SALAD... BOLONGO PIE... Pg. 138: BANANA DAIQUIRI... Pg. 139: RUM HIGHBALLS... GOVERNOR'S CUP... ST. THOMAS SEVENTY-FIVE... Pg. 140: COCONUT COOLER... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 1 04:25:17 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:25:17 -0500 Subject: Fungi (1934) Message-ID: Sorry about the multiple "fungi" posts. I searched again for "corn" instead of "cornmeal" on JSTOR. This citation has "corn-meal" on two lines...OED doesn't record the Virgin Islands' "Cha Cha"? I won't have a free NYPL day anytime soon to antedate this. When I do make it to the library, there will be 40 David Shulman Christmas poems to listen to. The Chachas of St. Thomas Earl B. Shaw The Scientific Monthly, Vol. 38, No. 2. (Feb., 1934), pp. 136-145. Pg. 144: The meals of the fisher folk consist mainly of fish, fungi,* and "soups" and "teas" often made from indigenous plants. *Fungi is a gruel made largely out of corn-meal. The meal is imported, for it can be shipped in cheaper than corn can be grown and prepared. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 1 08:41:53 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 03:41:53 EST Subject: Ground provisions, Lima bean, Calalue (1794?, 1805-6, 1819) Message-ID: THE HISTORY, CIVIL AND COMMERCIAL, OF THE BRITISH WEST INDIES by Bryan Edwards in five volumes London: T. Miller 1819 New York: AMS Press, Inc. 1966 Another important book under-cited by the OED. This is the volume that's at NYU. I had read also part of the 1805-6 edition on Saturday at the NYPL. The first edition is 1794. OT: I took a train home from NYU. Half of the train contained ads for "America's Caribbean," the U.S. Virgin Islands. TAKE ME BACK! GET ME OUT OF NEW YORK! VOLUME ONE Pg. 255: To my own taste, however, several of the native growths, especially the chocho, ochra, Lima-bean, and Indian-kale, are more agreeable than any of the esculent vegetables of Europe. The other indigenous productions of this class are plantains, bananas, yams of several varieties, calalue (a species of spinnage), eddoes, cassavi, and sweet potatoes. A mixture of these, stewed with salt fish or salted meat of any kind, and highly seasoned with Cayenne pepper, is a favourite olio among the negroes. (OED has 1819 for "Lima bean." I just returned from Cayenne, in French Guiana--ed.) Pg. 256: Perhaps no country on earth affords so magnificent a dessert; and I conceive that the following were spontaneously bestowed on the island by the bounty of nature:--the annana or pine-apple, tamarind, papaw, guava, sweet-sop of two species, cashew-apple, custard-apple (a species of chirimoya), cocoa-nut, star-apple, grenadilla, avocado-pear, hog-plum and its varieties, pindal-nut, nesberry, mammec, mammee-sapota, Spanish-gooseberry, p[rickly-pear, and perhaps a few others. For the orange (Seville and CHina), the lemon, lime, shaddock, and its numerous species, the vine, melon, fig, and pomegrante, the West Indian islands were probably indebted to their Spanish invaders. VOLUME TWO Pg. 102: This is in fact one of their chief musical instruments; besides which, they have the _Banja_ or _Merriwang_, the _Dundo_ and the _Goombay_; all of African origin. The first is an imperfect kind of violincello; except that it is played on by the finger like the guitar; producing a dismal monotony of four notes. The Dundo is precisely a tabor; and the Goombay is a rustic drum; being formed of the trunk of a hollow tree, one end of which is covered with a (Pg. 103--ed.) sheep's skin. (OED has 1774 nd 1789 cites for "banjo" and "goombay"--ed.) Pg. 158: This meal (breakfast--ed.) commonly consists of boiled yams, eddoes, ocra, calalue and plantains, or as many of those vegetables as they can procure; seasoned with salt, and cayenne pepper; and, in truth, it is an exceeding palatable and wholesome mess. Pg. 164: ...a pail, an iron pot, _calabashes_* of different sizes (serving very tolerably for plates, dishes, and bowls), make up the rest. *A species of gourd. Pg. 244: Ratoons are the sprouts or suckers that spring from the roots, or stoles of the canes that have been previously cut for sugar, and are commonly ripe in twelve months. (OED has 1779, then 1818 for "ratoon"--ed.) Pg. 370: The usual method of forming a new piemento plantation, (in Jamaice it is called a _walk_) is nothing more than to appropriate a piece of wood land, in the neighbourhood of a planation already existing,... (OED has 1793 for "walk" meaning "a plantation"--ed.) Pg. 347 (From Volume Two, 1805-6--ed.): The misfortune is, that they trust more to plantain groves, corn, and other vegetables, that are liable to be destroyed by storms, than to what are called _ground provisions_; such as yams, eddoes, (Pg. 348--ed.) potatoes, cassada, and other esculent roots;... (OED has 1827 for "ground provisions," under GROUND. Under PROVISION, OED has 1808 for "ground provisions"--ed.) VOLUME THREE Pg. 258: Returning to the villa, we were greeted by a party which frightened the boys. It was the _Moco Jumbo_ and his suite.* *Without doubt the _Mumbo Jumbo_ of the Mandengoes. VOLUME FIVE Pg. 202: SOME ACCOUNT OF THE BRITISH SETTLEMENTS ON THE MUSQUITO SHORE. Drawn up for the Use of Government in 1773. (OED has 1789 for "musquito shore," later "mosquito coast"--ed.) From hepkel10 at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 1 09:54:50 2003 From: hepkel10 at YAHOO.COM (Chris Dacolias) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 01:54:50 -0800 Subject: Cowboy Lingo? Message-ID: My question regards a dialect spoken in the west after the civil war and before the turn of the century in the American west. Some might call this a version of "cowboy language". This dialect was consistently used during the recent film "Open Range" a western set in 1888 starring Kevin Costner. In an interview, Costner referred to the dialect as "Victorian language". I didn't know quite what he meant. An example of the dialect follows: "We got a warrant sworn for attempted murder for them that tried to kill the boy who's laying over there at the Doc's, trying to stay alive. Swore out another one for them that murdered the big fella you had in your cell. Only ours ain't writ by no tin star, bought and paid for, Marshall. It's writ by us, and we aim to enforce it." "for them that tried to kill the boy" really stands out as a great example of the grammar of this dialect. It's not merely poor grammar, there's a style and consistency to it. Can anyone help me identify what characteristics unite this dialect, or where I can find out more information about it? Thank you very much. Konrad O"Milor __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Mon Dec 1 14:37:49 2003 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 09:37:49 -0500 Subject: "twit" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031129121549.049c19e0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 12:26 PM 11/29/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Is there any reason to suppose that "[silly] twit" has any etymological >relationship to the verb "twit" = "tease" (etc.)? > >My OED is apparently uncertain about the meaning of "twit" (sb1: 2), >recorded as "silly ... twit" from 1719 and 1896. Judging from the citations >as they stand, this could easily be continuous with the 20th-century use. > >One obvious speculation would place "twit" on the spectrum which also >includes "twitchet" and "twat", with all three having the same one-word >gloss. Relatively sparse printed record would be expected. > >-- Doug Wilson Several of the books I checked did say it was a blend of twerp and twat (Partridge for example.) And Safire brazenly and boldly had that in the column. ;-) I told him, he writes for a paper that won't allow the word butt in its pages, but he thought he'd give it a shot anyway. Of course the editors were immediately "in a twit" about twat. Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 1 15:05:21 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:05:21 -0500 Subject: "twit" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20031201093301.02b3cf30@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: At 9:37 AM -0500 12/1/03, Kathleen E. Miller wrote: >At 12:26 PM 11/29/2003 -0500, you wrote: >>Is there any reason to suppose that "[silly] twit" has any etymological >>relationship to the verb "twit" = "tease" (etc.)? >> >>My OED is apparently uncertain about the meaning of "twit" (sb1: 2), >>recorded as "silly ... twit" from 1719 and 1896. Judging from the citations >>as they stand, this could easily be continuous with the 20th-century use. >> >>One obvious speculation would place "twit" on the spectrum which also >>includes "twitchet" and "twat", with all three having the same one-word >>gloss. Relatively sparse printed record would be expected. >> >>-- Doug Wilson > > > >Several of the books I checked did say it was a blend of twerp and twat >(Partridge for example.) And Safire brazenly and boldly had that in the >column. ;-) I told him, he writes for a paper that won't allow the word >butt in its pages, but he thought he'd give it a shot anyway. Of course the >editors were immediately "in a twit" about twat. > > >Kathleen E. Miller >Research Assistant to William Safire >The New York Times. too bad--he could have then gone into the whole bit from Webster 2 on _twat_: 'some part of a nun's garb [erron. Browning]', one of the more amusing lexicographic entries, right up there with _dord_ larry From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 2 14:41:43 2003 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 06:41:43 -0800 Subject: "A million here and a million there, and pretty soon you're talking real money." Message-ID: US Senator Everett Dirksen is quoted often as having said, "A million here and a million there, and pretty soon you're talking real money." Numerous web-sites attribute several variations (mostly using "billion" instead of "million") on this statement to the Senator. No doubt, recognizing the quotable gem he had uttered, Sen Dirksen repeated this phrase often and probably with slight variations. But when and where did he first use the phrase, and exactly what did he say? Anyone know? ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Dec 2 15:06:45 2003 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:06:45 EST Subject: Cowboy Lingo? Message-ID: original message follows: Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 01:54:50 -0800 From: Chris Dacolias Subject: Re: Cowboy Lingo? My question regards a dialect spoken in the west after the civil war and before the turn of the century in the American west. Some might call this a version of "cowboy language". This dialect was consistently used during the recent film "Open Range" a western set in 1888 starring Kevin Costner. In an interview, Costner referred to the dialect as "Victorian language". I didn't know quite what he meant. An example of the dialect follows: "We got a warrant sworn for attempted murder for them that tried to kill the boy who's laying over there at the Doc's, trying to stay alive. Swore out another one for them that murdered the big fella you had in your cell. Only ours ain't writ by no tin star, bought and paid for, Marshall. It's writ by us, and we aim to enforce it." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm a little suspicious of the quote. It is addressed to someone who has the job title of "Marshall" [sic---should be only one "l"]. In the WIld West, "marshal" was the title for two different law enforcement positions: 1) a municipal police officer (now archaic) 2) a US Marshal (a position that still exists today) (If I remember correctly, the Earp brothers in the Tombstone days held down both types of marshal positions) Both types of marshals frequently wore metal badges. Since the Civil War the attributive noun "tin" has meant any type of thin sheet metal (e.g. lightly armored Union gunboats in the Civil War were known as "tinclads", or L. Frank Baum's "Tin Woodsman" (Wizard of Oz, 1900) who, since he rusted, was obviously made of sheet iron or sheet steel rather than tin.) Hence it was not uncommon for a marshal's badge, and by extension the marshal himself, to be called a "tin star". Therefore the speaker, by using the phrase "tin star", is gratuitously insulting the (town or US) marshal he is addressing. I seem to recall having heard "them that" for "those who" in jocular expressions, the kind in which ungrammatical usages are used for emphasis, e.g. "The Golden Rule: Them that has the gold, rules". "laying" for "lying" is a common grammatical error, much commented on by my grade school grammar books. "Ain't" needs no commentary. The only other violations of formal grammar and diction are the missing "by" clause after "sworn", the missing subject in the second sentence, the singular "It" as subject of the last sentence, and the quaint-sounding use of "writ" as a verb. There is a play on words that seems to have snuck by the scriptwriter. A warrant is a "writ", and hence the speaker and his colleagues have "writ a writ". - James A. Landau From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 2 15:10:17 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:10:17 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Re: Program for ADS Annual Meeting January 8-10 In-Reply-To: <149.1d5a82a4.2cfbb6a2@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 04:09:54PM -0500, AAllan at AOL.COM wrote: > Dear Jesse, > It would be most helpful if you could chair the Saturday morning session, > January 10, from 9:15 to 11:15 p.m. on attitudes, perceptions, and identities. > Can you do it? Please let me know. Thanks! - Allan Yes, I'd be happy to. Best, Jesse From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Dec 2 18:32:08 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:32:08 -0600 Subject: Baseball Dictionary (for 1913)--vol. 3 is completed Message-ID: For those who might be interested: I have completed the third and last volume of _Dictionary of 1913 Baseball And Other Lingo_; subtitle: _Primarily from the Baseball Columns of the San Francisco Bulletin, Feb. - May 1913_. 2003 (published by the author). The project began as a search for the origin of the term "jazz" and expanded as I saw more and more interesting material before me. Items are presented in context with the exact reference; sample items are 'spasm' (inning), 'Skoozicks Mageezicks' (Joe Blow), 'to tin-can someone' (fire someone), 'switch the cut' (get a hit by outfoxing the opposing fielders). The work aims to be scholarly. Only 110 copies have been printed--10 for personal use and 100 for sale. The project in non-profit--any remaining funds will be donated to a scholarship fund at the University of Missouri Rolla. Cost of the volumes: Volume 1: $25 (includes $5 postage/handling fee)--213 pp. Volume 2: $30 (includes $5 postage/handling fee)--213 pp. Volume 3: $30 (includes $5 postage/handling fee).---215 pp. The post office lost a few of my volume 1 mailings, and so I now mail the books by Federal Express (my campus gets a discount; hence the increased cost of vols. 2-3.) Copies of vol. 1 and 2 are still available. Checks should be made payable to the University of Missouri-Rolla and mailed to me at: Gerald Cohen, PLA Department, G-4 H-SS, University of Missouri-Rolla, Rolla MO 65409. It would be good if at least some copies would find their way onto the shelves of libraries so they will be permanently available to the public. Gerald Cohen P.S. Anyone thinking of a baseball dictionary as a Xmas gift would not want the above item. Instead I'd recommend Paul Dickson's _The New Dickson Baseball Dictionary_ (Harcourt, 1999), which is broader in scope, has lots of nice pictures, etc. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Dec 2 20:48:56 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:48:56 -0500 Subject: Cowboy Lingo? In-Reply-To: <91.368b9e68.2cfe0485@aol.com> Message-ID: Costner is really showing his ignorance about American dialects (are we surprised?). Calling these representations of very commonly used nonstandard English (in both Britain and America) "Victorian" is like calling Appalachian English "Elizabethan." Maybe he read some of these forms ("them that," for example, and "writ" and intransitive "laying") in a Dickens novel and thought that "somehow" 19th century English had been transported to the Wild West of America. Ain't nothing "jocular" about these forms; and I don't see a problem with singular "it," since the referent seems to be one warrant (either one of the two mentioned). At 10:06 AM 12/2/2003 -0500, you wrote: >original message follows: > >Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 01:54:50 -0800 >From: Chris Dacolias >Subject: Re: Cowboy Lingo? > >My question regards a dialect spoken in the west after >the civil war and before the turn of the century in >the American west. Some might call this a version of >"cowboy language". This dialect was consistently used >during the recent film "Open Range" a western set in >1888 starring Kevin Costner. In an interview, Costner >referred to the dialect as "Victorian language". I >didn't know quite what he meant. > >An example of the dialect follows: >"We got a warrant sworn for attempted murder for them >that tried to kill the boy who's laying over there at >the Doc's, trying to stay alive. Swore out another one >for them that murdered the big fella you had in your >cell. Only ours ain't writ by no tin star, bought and >paid for, Marshall. It's writ by us, and we aim to >enforce it." >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >I'm a little suspicious of the quote. It is addressed to someone who has the >job title of "Marshall" [sic---should be only one "l"]. In the WIld West, >"marshal" was the title for two different law enforcement positions: >1) a municipal police officer (now archaic) >2) a US Marshal (a position that still exists today) >(If I remember correctly, the Earp brothers in the Tombstone days held down >both types of marshal positions) > >Both types of marshals frequently wore metal badges. Since the Civil War the >attributive noun "tin" has meant any type of thin sheet metal (e.g. lightly >armored Union gunboats in the Civil War were known as "tinclads", or L. Frank >Baum's "Tin Woodsman" (Wizard of Oz, 1900) who, since he rusted, was obviously >made of sheet iron or sheet steel rather than tin.) Hence it was not >uncommon for a marshal's badge, and by extension the marshal himself, to >be called a >"tin star". > >Therefore the speaker, by using the phrase "tin star", is gratuitously >insulting the (town or US) marshal he is addressing. > >I seem to recall having heard "them that" for "those who" in jocular >expressions, the kind in which ungrammatical usages are used for emphasis, >e.g. "The >Golden Rule: Them that has the gold, rules". > >"laying" for "lying" is a common grammatical error, much commented on by my >grade school grammar books. "Ain't" needs no commentary. The only other >violations of formal grammar and diction are the missing "by" clause after >"sworn", >the missing subject in the second sentence, the singular "It" as subject of >the last sentence, and the quaint-sounding use of "writ" as a verb. > >There is a play on words that seems to have snuck by the scriptwriter. A >warrant is a "writ", and hence the speaker and his colleagues have "writ a >writ". > > - James A. Landau From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Dec 2 21:15:29 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:15:29 -0500 Subject: Cowboy Lingo? Message-ID: For the "them that" construction, compare "God helps them that help themselves" (Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac, 1757, according to Bartlett's via Bartleby.com). I expect that by "Victorian language," Costner simply meant language used during the Victorian period. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Chris Dacolias [mailto:hepkel10 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 4:55 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Cowboy Lingo? My question regards a dialect spoken in the west after the civil war and before the turn of the century in the American west. Some might call this a version of "cowboy language". This dialect was consistently used during the recent film "Open Range" a western set in 1888 starring Kevin Costner. In an interview, Costner referred to the dialect as "Victorian language". I didn't know quite what he meant. An example of the dialect follows: "We got a warrant sworn for attempted murder for them that tried to kill the boy who's laying over there at the Doc's, trying to stay alive. Swore out another one for them that murdered the big fella you had in your cell. Only ours ain't writ by no tin star, bought and paid for, Marshall. It's writ by us, and we aim to enforce it." "for them that tried to kill the boy" really stands out as a great example of the grammar of this dialect. It's not merely poor grammar, there's a style and consistency to it. Can anyone help me identify what characteristics unite this dialect, or where I can find out more information about it? Thank you very much. Konrad O"Milor __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Wed Dec 3 03:24:22 2003 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:24:22 EST Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase Message-ID: One of my NJ students (Asian-American) wrote these two sentences in a paper I just read: "As I entered the school, I went to the office where I was supposed to check in at. I checked in and the secretary took me to a room where I was needed at." I was surprised to find this in a more or less formal paper. We had "this place is where it's at" in the 60s.. DARE has examples from the South and Midlands with some NY examples, but most of the examples are of the "where are you at?" variety--maybe this construction is taking off. Dale Coye The College of NJ From douglas at NB.NET Wed Dec 3 04:43:31 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 23:43:31 -0500 Subject: "twit" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am somewhat surprised to find "twit" = "nervous state"/"jitters" in MW3 as well as RHUD etc. Apparently "in a twit" has been available for a while. Said to be short for "twitter" in this sense: seems right to me. -- Doug Wilson From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Dec 3 15:46:12 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:46:12 EST Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase Message-ID: In a message dated 12/2/03 10:24:56 PM, Dalecoye at AOL.COM writes: > One of my NJ students (Asian-American) wrote these two sentences in a paper > I > just read: > > "As I entered the school, I went to the office where I was supposed to check > in at.  I checked in and the secretary took me to a room where I was needed > at." > > I was surprised to find this in a more or less formal paper.  We had "this > place is where it's at" in the 60s.. DARE has examples from the South and > Midlands with some NY examples, but most of the examples are of the "where > are you > at?" variety--maybe this construction is taking off. > > Dale Coye > The College of NJ > "This is where its at" = 'This is an exciting place' is slang from the 1960s that postdates the use of "at" in the student examples above. The student examples sound perfectly normal to me as Midwestern vernacular speech. So does the question, "Where's he at?"--they are equally plausible in the Iowa speech of my youth (Cedar Rapids [west side]). When I was a child, if I asked an adult "Where's he at?" or "Where's it at?" or "Where am I supposed to check in at?" I would sometimes be told, "On the other side of the 'at'," which was supposed to be a clever way of telling me that I had committed a solecism. I believe that it has been suggested that this construction has something to do with the German ancestors of many midwesterners. From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM Wed Dec 3 16:07:35 2003 From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:07:35 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ron, I grew up with the "... at." construction that Dale's describing in NWNC, and I think I hear it even more in the piedmont. Is this fairly common in the South, as well? bh On Dec 3, 2003, at 10:46 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > "This is where its at" = 'This is an exciting place' is slang from the > 1960s > that postdates the use of "at" in the student examples above. The > student > examples sound perfectly normal to me as Midwestern vernacular speech. > So does the > question, "Where's he at?"--they are equally plausible in the Iowa > speech of > my youth (Cedar Rapids [west side]). When I was a child, if I asked an > adult > "Where's he at?" or "Where's it at?" or "Where am I supposed to check > in at?" I > would sometimes be told, "On the other side of the 'at'," which was > supposed > to be a clever way of telling me that I had committed a solecism. I > believe > that it has been suggested that this construction has something to do > with the > German ancestors of many midwesterners. "We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams." Bob Haas Department of English High Point University From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Dec 3 16:34:28 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:34:28 EST Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase (more) Message-ID: A little Googling should provide some answers. Here is a start: I found 631 pages of examples on a Google search for "where he is at"; here are the first 3 (note that many of the examples are not relevant--they are like the third one below): • explain where dante is at and why he must make this journey!!!!: ... - ... is!! ...dante is at a certain place in his life when he has this vision of hell, explain where he is at and why he must make this journey. ... http://killdevilhill.com/infernochat/messages2/737.html • Keiko is fine where he is at - ... Keiko is fine where he is at. From: Softball_baby_15 at yahoo.com Date: 4/3/2003 Time: 3:32:14 PM Remote Name: 209.144.38.99. Comments. ... http://freekeiko.com/_disc6/00000030.htm • Saint Brendan's College - ... 1995: DENIS DOYLE Denis went to Trinity College where he is at present taking a degree in Business, Economics and Social Studies. ... http://homepage.tinet.ie/~stbrendans/voy5.htm I also found 11 pages that have examples such as the following; Directions to Canoe Outpost-Peace River/Gardner - ... are varied. Avoid dis appointment and confusion and confirm which Canoe Outpost office you are supposed to check-in at. During spring ... http://www.canoeoutpost.com/pgardir.htm HoustonChronicle.com - Maps, questions abound, but Reliant debut ... - ... So we came over here and they're saying no.". A friend got on his cell phone and found out yet another gate the volunteers were supposed to check in at. ... http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/rodeo/features/1795219 From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Wed Dec 3 22:04:31 2003 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 17:04:31 -0500 Subject: FYI: "Gay" is a bad "wurd" Message-ID: Did anybody read this? My mouth is still open in shock... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29820-2003Dec2.html http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/03/national/03GAY.html Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Dec 3 22:11:33 2003 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 17:11:33 -0500 Subject: Foreign Accent Syndrome Audio Message-ID: For those who haven't heard her yet, the BBC World Service program Outlook yesterday featured the woman who accidentally lost her American accent and now sounds oddly British. The audio is available in Real Audio format, and the segment starts roughly at the 28-minute mark. http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/ram/outlook_tue.ram That audio will disappear in a week, so invoking Fair Use, I've put up an excerpt of the show in MP3 format (variable-rate, mono, 5.3MB, 11 minutes): http://www.americandialect.org/BBC_Outlook_ForeignAccentSyndrome.mp3 There's also an impressionist on the show whose interview is intertwined with that of the FAS woman; she speaks in the beginning and the end of the segment. He is noticeably skeptical, as she seems to have made some effort to pick up British usages. During the interview, she says "right roll ready," (at the eight-minute mark) which both the host and the impressionist immediately recognise as very English. She also uses "wee" (in "wee little toddler," triple prize-winner for redundancy), "shan't," and what sounds like a possessive "me" (as in "me mum" or more like, "me mim"), all where an American likely wouldn't. Grant Barrett gbarrett at americandialect.org From stalker at MSU.EDU Thu Dec 4 01:46:50 2003 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C. Stalker) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 20:46:50 -0500 Subject: FYI: "Gay" is a bad "wurd" Message-ID: I'm not surprised. When particular words are demonized, no one can say them. They lose denotative content and become entirely connotative content. "Gay" is hate speak, therefore unallowable under any circumstances. I'm sure the poor teacher has been admonished, quite strictly, not to allow anything that sounds like hate speech. I would bet that she heard no context, only the word. My sympathies for both her and the child, caught in a linguistic battle beyond their ken. Where is Frodo when we really need him? A bit melodramatic perhaps, but I think appropriate to the situation. Jim Stalker "Kathleen E. Miller" wrote: > Did anybody read this? My mouth is still open in shock... > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29820-2003Dec2.html > > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/03/national/03GAY.html > > Kathleen E. Miller > Research Assistant to William Safire > The New York Times From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Dec 4 03:06:39 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 22:06:39 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) Message-ID: Not in M-W or OED, unless I missed it. RHDAS has from 1982. >From the Gettysburg (PA) Compiler, August 29, 1974: page 14, col. 7: <> So did Staubach originate this phrase? If you aren't from the US, this is a desperation pass, whether football or basketball. Probably comes from football. Sam Clements From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Dec 4 03:45:29 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 22:45:29 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) In-Reply-To: <000501c3ba13$a3fb3480$7e22a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: It appears that Staubach did originate it. I'm a bit surprised that HDAS only has it from '82. It's one of the all-time classic plays in football and even a casual fan can date the term to 12 Dec 1975 when Staubach threw a desperation, last minute pass to Drew Pearson, who caught it and ran it into the end zone. Dallas beat Minnesota, 17-14, taking the Divisional Title. Vikings' Cornerback Nate Wright claimed that Pearson committed offensive pass interference, but the officials never called the foul. After the game, Staubach said, "it was just a Hail Mary pass, a very, very lucky play." Evidently as Mr. Clements has discovered, this was not the first time Staubach used the term. (Some years later, Pearson admitted that he had indeed committed interference.) The other famous '70s football play that uses Marian word play is the "Immaculate Reception." 23 Dec 1972, losing 7-6 with about a minute left, Steelers QB Terry Bradshaw threw a pass to halfback John Fuqua. Fuqua was hit by Raider defenseman as he was catching the ball. It bounced off his hands, hit another player, and bounced into the hands of Steeler running back Franco Harris, who ran the ball 42 yards for a touchdown, winning the game. Some claimed that the ball hit the ground before bouncing into Harris's hands--which would have been the end of the play, but the refs didn't call it and the camera angles are inconclusive. (Unlike Pearson, Harris has never admitted the ball hit the ground, but he does smile and wink when people bring up the subject.) The term "Immaculate Reception" was first used by Myron Cope, the Steelers' radio announcer later that night. The term was suggested by a fan, Michael Ord. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Sam Clements > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:07 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) > > > Not in M-W or OED, unless I missed it. > > RHDAS has from 1982. > > From the Gettysburg (PA) Compiler, August 29, 1974: page 14, col. 7: > > < Conference West > before losing at Dallas, 27-16, in the playoffs on what Cowboys' > quarterback > Roger Staubach calls "a couple of Hail Mary pass plays." >> > > So did Staubach originate this phrase? > > If you aren't from the US, this is a desperation pass, whether football or > basketball. Probably comes from football. > > Sam Clements > > From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Dec 4 04:01:23 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:01:23 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) Message-ID: I screwed up. M-W DOES have it, as a second meaning, thereby deftly avoiding the first useage-cite-problem-thingy. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Clements" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:06 PM Subject: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) > Not in M-W or OED, unless I missed it. > > RHDAS has from 1982. > > From the Gettysburg (PA) Compiler, August 29, 1974: page 14, col. 7: > > < before losing at Dallas, 27-16, in the playoffs on what Cowboys' quarterback > Roger Staubach calls "a couple of Hail Mary pass plays." >> > > So did Staubach originate this phrase? > > If you aren't from the US, this is a desperation pass, whether football or > basketball. Probably comes from football. > > Sam Clements > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 4 04:05:57 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:05:57 -0500 Subject: How to Speak Chocolatese (Gianduja); Polish Pickup Message-ID: HOW TO SPEAK CHOCOLATESE I speak the rare Cadburian dialect. From Wednesday's NEW YORK TIMES: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/03/dining/03CGLO.html Glossary: How to Speak Chocolatese ALLOTIN The traditional long, deep box used for packing chocolates in Europe. BLOOM A fine gray-brown dust on chocolate that has been stored too hot or too long. Cocoa butter bloom does not change the flavor or texture of chocolate. Sugar bloom, when sugar crystals separate from the chocolate, creates a gritty layer. CACAO POD The soft fruit of the cacao tree (Theobroma cacao). COCOA BEAN The seed inside the cacao pod. Seeds removed from the pods are called cocoa beans. COCOA MASS/COCOA LIQUOR Cocoa powder mixed with pure cocoa butter; the base of all chocolate. CONCHING The milling and kneading of cocoa mass in its first stage of processing. COUVERTURE French for covering, it is the term for fine plain chocolate. GANACHE A soft paste of chocolate and cream, plain or flavored. A plain dark-chocolate ganache is the best benchmark for a chocolatier's work. GIANDUJA Italy's characteristic confection: chocolate with hazelnuts, either smooth or crunchy. PALET A round, thin wafer of plain chocolate, used for tastings. PAVÉ French for cobblestone, the most popular shape for high-end chocolates, square with rounded edges. PRALINE French for candied, usually referring to nuts. Many classic French bonbons are filled with crunchy almond or hazelnut praline; these are also called croquantes, meaning crunchy. However, in Belgium, praline is used as a general term for chocolates. SINGLE-PLANTATION Chocolate made from cocoa beans grown in the same region and harvested by the same grower. TEMPERING A process of heating and cooling to stabilize the cocoa butter in chocolate to produce the snap, gloss and crispness that distinguishes professional bonbons from homemade ones. Tempering chocolate, like tempering steel, makes it stronger. TRUFFLE A round, chocolate-covered bonbon, named for its resemblance to a freshly dug truffle (chocolate truffles are often dusted with cocoa powder, to give them an even earthier look). There are 7,500 Google hits for "gianduja." It is not in the OED. (GOOGLE) http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food/index.ssf?DEF_ID=1895 gianduja [zhahn-DOO-yah] Hailing from Switzerland, gianduja is a silky-smooth, hazelnut-flavored chocolate that comes in several styles including milk chocolate and bittersweet chocolate. It's available in gourmet markets and through mail order. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) News of Food New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 14, 1952. p. 31 (1 page): The other Swiss cooky, also a Kambly product, is the double lady-finger Duchesse. Between two airy-textured wafers (made of flour, sugar and egg white), there is a creamy Gianduja filling. This is a special mixture of finely-ground almonds and hazelnuts blended with chocolate and flavored with vanilla. A box fo eighteen of the lady-fingers is 95 cents. A Chocolate Fantasy That Came True By MIMI SHERATON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 2, 1980. p. C3 (1 page) : For gianduja, nuts and sugar are roasted together so that each nut is entirely coated with sugar that seals the flavor in. "The result," Mr. Stork promises, "is a much more intense nut flavor, and I am also excited about making it with pecans." The Lighter Ice Creams: Now Less Is More By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 21, 1982. p. C1 (2 pages) : Pg. C6: And the amaretto chocolate-hazelnut (called gianduja) and torroncino or nougat, bring back memories of the Piazza Navona in Rome. Display Ad 5 -- No Title The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Oct 22, 1982. p. A7 (1 page): Roma, rum, brandy and coffee flavored creams in Gianduja chocolate. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ POLISH PICKUP In that new tv classic, THE SIMPLE LIFE (with Paris Hilton), one of the Arkansas rustics asked one of the girls to drive the "Polish pickup." It's a wheelbarrow. Only one Google Group hit? Try this search again tomorrow. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 04:46:45 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:46:45 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:45 PM -0500 12/3/03, Dave Wilton wrote: >It appears that Staubach did originate it. > >I'm a bit surprised that HDAS only has it from '82. It's one of the all-time >classic plays in football and even a casual fan can date the term to 12 Dec >1975 when Staubach threw a desperation, last minute pass to Drew Pearson, >who caught it and ran it into the end zone. Dallas beat Minnesota, 17-14, >taking the Divisional Title. Playoff game on 12 Dec? The Hail Mary in question, whether or not it was the first cite, happened later in the season; both the fact that it was a playoff game and the fact that I remember watching it live (well, live on TV) during the LSA conference suggest that it happened between Christmas and New Years', when we used to meet. Dec. 27 or 28, maybe? (According to my computer calendar, those would have been the relevant weekend days.) > Vikings' Cornerback Nate Wright claimed that >Pearson committed offensive pass interference, but the officials never >called the foul. After the game, Staubach said, "it was just a Hail Mary >pass, a very, very lucky play." Evidently as Mr. Clements has discovered, >this was not the first time Staubach used the term. (Some years later, >Pearson admitted that he had indeed committed interference.) > >The other famous '70s football play that uses Marian word play is the >"Immaculate Reception." 23 Dec 1972, losing 7-6 with about a minute left, >Steelers QB Terry Bradshaw threw a pass to halfback John Fuqua. Fuqua was >hit by Raider defenseman as he was catching the ball. It bounced off his >hands, hit another player, and bounced into the hands of Steeler running >back Franco Harris, who ran the ball 42 yards for a touchdown, winning the >game. Some claimed that the ball hit the ground before bouncing into >Harris's hands--which would have been the end of the play, but the refs >didn't call it and the camera angles are inconclusive. (Unlike Pearson, >Harris has never admitted the ball hit the ground, but he does smile and >wink when people bring up the subject.) The term "Immaculate Reception" was >first used by Myron Cope, the Steelers' radio announcer later that night. >The term was suggested by a fan, Michael Ord. I'm pretty sure that history is a bit off too. At the time, the NFL rules prohibited two offensive players touching a pass consecutively (without a defender touching it between the two), so no passes could be batted or tipped accidentally or deliberately by one receiver to another. The Raiders maintained the ball was indeed touched by Fuqua and then Franco Harris, which would have been illegal; the Steelers maintained that the referee correctly ruled the ball was batted by defensive back Art ("They Call Me 'Assassin'") Tatum. Later replays were inconclusive, but on the question of who tapped the ball back to Harris, Fuqua or Tatum, but the preponderance of the evidence is that the refs got it wrong. Nobody to my knowledge claimed the ball hit the ground before making it into Harris's hands, and the replays do make it clear the ball never touched the ground; the question was whether two Steelers touched it in a row, which would have resulted in an all too maculate reception. Since then the rules (like the LSA meeting dates) have been changed, so that the pass would have been been a legal reception on either the Raiders' or Steelers' account of the events, but it would have been a lot less memorable. Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 4 04:54:39 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:54:39 -0500 Subject: "Unemployment" origin wrong in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL Message-ID: The newspapers say something about a word origin. It's ridiculously wrong. I write in to give scholarship away for free. There's no correction. We've seen it all before.."Jazz" has still not been corrected in the NEW YORK SUN. I guess we missed all those pre-Civil War citations. Today, it's "unemployment" in the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 3 December 2003, pg. D1, col. 1: THERE HAVE ALWAYS been people who couldn't work. But until the late 19th century, the word "unemployment" didn't exist. (...) The financial panic of 1873 put a brutal end to this golden age. In the next few years thousands of businesses failed, and the word "unemployed" was assigned a new definition. In an 1873 Massachusetts census, the word referred to anyone without an occupation, which included, for example, children under the age of 10. We'll take a quick look at Literature Online. There should be nothing before 1873--but there is. (UNEMPLOYED) 1. Baker, Daniel, 1653 or 4-1723 [Author Record] Judith. 21Kb, [from Poems upon Several Occasions (1697)] Found 1 hit: IX. 3Kb ...was their Joy secure, and unemploy'd, But all quick Preparation make,... 2. Tate, Nahum, 1652-1715 [Author Record] The third Eclogue.By the same. 9Kb, [from Poems by Several Hands and on Several Occasions : Collected by N. Tate (1685)] Found 1 hit: Celadon, Mopsus. 9Kb ...I know you were not unemploy'd so long; Then tell me,... 3. Wesley, Samuel, 1662-1735 [Author Record] MARLBOROUGH, OR, THE Fate of EUROPE. 50Kb, [from Marlborough (1705)] Found 1 hit: ...Germany ! Nor were they unemploy'd ; nor wou'd the Foe... 1. Dryden, John, 1631-1700 [Author Record] Marriage a la mode (1673) 259Kb MARRIAGE A-la-Mode. A COMEDY. As it is Acted at the THEATRE-ROYAL. 258Kb Found 1 hit: Main text 250Kb ACT II. 45Kb SCENE I. 45Kb ...here. There, he is lazy, unemploy'd, and slow; Here, he's more... 2. Manley, Mrs. (Mary de la Rivière), 1663-1724 [Author Record] The royal mischief (1696) 158Kb THE Royal Mischief. A TRAGEDY. 156Kb Found 1 hit: Main text 148Kb ACT II. 31Kb SCENE I. 31Kb ...And left the beauteous Circle unemploy'd; The little God gave new... Poetry (3 entries, 3 hits) Drama (2 entries, 2 hits) Prose (0 entries, 0 hits) ( UNEMPLOYMENT) Gaskell, Elizabeth Cleghorn, 1810-1865 [Author Record] Mary Barton (1849) 976Kb Mary Barton: A Tale of Manchester Life ... In Two Volumes ... Third Edition 974Kb Found 1 hit: VOL. I. 495Kb CHAPTER XV. 31Kb ...present depression of trade, and unemployment of hands, there would be. (MAKING OF AMERICA-MICHIGAN) Author: Sprague, William, 1830-1915. Title: The tax bill. Speech of William Sprague in the Senate of the United States April 8, 1869. Publication date: 1869. Collection: Making of America Books Search results: 2 matches in full text Page 29 - 2 terms matching "unemployment" This is going on at a rapid rate; and you see by the increase of importations--indicative of the unemployment of your people in manufactures, produced by the extortionate rates of interest established for your public securities--that the increase in the cost of your manufactures is so great that the tariff is becoming of no possible protection. (...) Existing prices are starvation prices, because your people are in great numbers in the position of unemployment. The WALL STREET JOURNAL has no fact-checkers?? From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 04:59:18 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:59:18 -0500 Subject: Oops, I did it again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:46 PM -0500 12/3/03, Laurence Horn wrote: > the Steelers >maintained that the referee correctly ruled the ball was batted by >defensive back Art ("They Call Me 'Assassin'") Tatum. Oops. No, they maintained it was batted by *Jack* "the Assassin" Tatum, not by Art ("Don't Shoot Me, I'm Only The Piano Player") Tatum, who wasn't even at the stadium on the day in question. It was Jack who was later made famous by his near-lethal hit on Patriots' receiver Darryl Stingley in a pre-season game that not only knocked him out but paralyzed him for life. At worst, Art Tatum might have hit an off-note once or twice. Sorry about that. Larry From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Dec 4 05:02:13 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:02:13 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You're right, it was Dec 28. A web site misled me about the date. And I could have sworn that the controversy over the Immaculate Reception was that it hit the ground. But I'm going by memory and you're probably right here too. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Laurence Horn > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 11:47 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) > > > At 10:45 PM -0500 12/3/03, Dave Wilton wrote: > >It appears that Staubach did originate it. > > > >I'm a bit surprised that HDAS only has it from '82. It's one of > the all-time > >classic plays in football and even a casual fan can date the > term to 12 Dec > >1975 when Staubach threw a desperation, last minute pass to Drew Pearson, > >who caught it and ran it into the end zone. Dallas beat Minnesota, 17-14, > >taking the Divisional Title. > > Playoff game on 12 Dec? The Hail Mary in question, whether or not it > was the first cite, happened later in the season; both the fact that > it was a playoff game and the fact that I remember watching it live > (well, live on TV) during the LSA conference suggest that it happened > between Christmas and New Years', when we used to meet. Dec. 27 or > 28, maybe? (According to my computer calendar, those would have been > the relevant weekend days.) > > > Vikings' Cornerback Nate Wright claimed that > >Pearson committed offensive pass interference, but the officials never > >called the foul. After the game, Staubach said, "it was just a Hail Mary > >pass, a very, very lucky play." Evidently as Mr. Clements has discovered, > >this was not the first time Staubach used the term. (Some years later, > >Pearson admitted that he had indeed committed interference.) > > > >The other famous '70s football play that uses Marian word play is the > >"Immaculate Reception." 23 Dec 1972, losing 7-6 with about a minute left, > >Steelers QB Terry Bradshaw threw a pass to halfback John Fuqua. Fuqua was > >hit by Raider defenseman as he was catching the ball. It bounced off his > >hands, hit another player, and bounced into the hands of Steeler running > >back Franco Harris, who ran the ball 42 yards for a touchdown, > winning the > >game. Some claimed that the ball hit the ground before bouncing into > >Harris's hands--which would have been the end of the play, but the refs > >didn't call it and the camera angles are inconclusive. (Unlike Pearson, > >Harris has never admitted the ball hit the ground, but he does smile and > >wink when people bring up the subject.) The term "Immaculate > Reception" was > >first used by Myron Cope, the Steelers' radio announcer later that night. > >The term was suggested by a fan, Michael Ord. > > I'm pretty sure that history is a bit off too. At the time, the NFL > rules prohibited two offensive players touching a pass consecutively > (without a defender touching it between the two), so no passes could > be batted or tipped accidentally or deliberately by one receiver to > another. The Raiders maintained the ball was indeed touched by Fuqua > and then Franco Harris, which would have been illegal; the Steelers > maintained that the referee correctly ruled the ball was batted by > defensive back Art ("They Call Me 'Assassin'") Tatum. Later replays > were inconclusive, but on the question of who tapped the ball back to > Harris, Fuqua or Tatum, but the preponderance of the evidence is that > the refs got it wrong. Nobody to my knowledge claimed the ball hit > the ground before making it into Harris's hands, and the replays do > make it clear the ball never touched the ground; the question was > whether two Steelers touched it in a row, which would have resulted > in an all too maculate reception. Since then the rules (like the LSA > meeting dates) have been changed, so that the pass would have been > been a legal reception on either the Raiders' or Steelers' account of > the events, but it would have been a lot less memorable. > > Larry > > From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Dec 4 05:34:24 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:34:24 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) Message-ID: !5 yards on Wilton for mangling the date!. Horn gets the ball at the 9 yard line. First and ten. It was Sunday, Dec. 28, 1975. But my antedating of that still stands. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 11:46 PM Subject: Re: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) > At 10:45 PM -0500 12/3/03, Dave Wilton wrote: > >It appears that Staubach did originate it. > > > >I'm a bit surprised that HDAS only has it from '82. It's one of the all-time > >classic plays in football and even a casual fan can date the term to 12 Dec > >1975 when Staubach threw a desperation, last minute pass to Drew Pearson, > >who caught it and ran it into the end zone. Dallas beat Minnesota, 17-14, > >taking the Divisional Title. > > Playoff game on 12 Dec? The Hail Mary in question, whether or not it > was the first cite, happened later in the season; both the fact that > it was a playoff game and the fact that I remember watching it live > (well, live on TV) during the LSA conference suggest that it happened > between Christmas and New Years', when we used to meet. Dec. 27 or > 28, maybe? (According to my computer calendar, those would have been > the relevant weekend days.) > > > Vikings' Cornerback Nate Wright claimed that > >Pearson committed offensive pass interference, but the officials never > >called the foul. After the game, Staubach said, "it was just a Hail Mary > >pass, a very, very lucky play." Evidently as Mr. Clements has discovered, > >this was not the first time Staubach used the term. (Some years later, > >Pearson admitted that he had indeed committed interference.) > > > >The other famous '70s football play that uses Marian word play is the > >"Immaculate Reception." 23 Dec 1972, losing 7-6 with about a minute left, > >Steelers QB Terry Bradshaw threw a pass to halfback John Fuqua. Fuqua was > >hit by Raider defenseman as he was catching the ball. It bounced off his > >hands, hit another player, and bounced into the hands of Steeler running > >back Franco Harris, who ran the ball 42 yards for a touchdown, winning the > >game. Some claimed that the ball hit the ground before bouncing into > >Harris's hands--which would have been the end of the play, but the refs > >didn't call it and the camera angles are inconclusive. (Unlike Pearson, > >Harris has never admitted the ball hit the ground, but he does smile and > >wink when people bring up the subject.) The term "Immaculate Reception" was > >first used by Myron Cope, the Steelers' radio announcer later that night. > >The term was suggested by a fan, Michael Ord. > > I'm pretty sure that history is a bit off too. At the time, the NFL > rules prohibited two offensive players touching a pass consecutively > (without a defender touching it between the two), so no passes could > be batted or tipped accidentally or deliberately by one receiver to > another. The Raiders maintained the ball was indeed touched by Fuqua > and then Franco Harris, which would have been illegal; the Steelers > maintained that the referee correctly ruled the ball was batted by > defensive back Art ("They Call Me 'Assassin'") Tatum. Later replays > were inconclusive, but on the question of who tapped the ball back to > Harris, Fuqua or Tatum, but the preponderance of the evidence is that > the refs got it wrong. Nobody to my knowledge claimed the ball hit > the ground before making it into Harris's hands, and the replays do > make it clear the ball never touched the ground; the question was > whether two Steelers touched it in a row, which would have resulted > in an all too maculate reception. Since then the rules (like the LSA > meeting dates) have been changed, so that the pass would have been > been a legal reception on either the Raiders' or Steelers' account of > the events, but it would have been a lot less memorable. > > Larry > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 4 09:48:51 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 04:48:51 EST Subject: Hail Mary (1972) Message-ID: THE SPORTING NEWS digitization on paperofecord.com looks complete. There are in surprises for "jazz" or "hot dog" or "Yankees" or "Bronx cheer." 15 January 1972, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 8, col. 2: _Hardin Recalls Feat_ His former Navy coach, Wayne Hardin, recalled recently: "I remember a game at Michigan. We were on the 20 and Roger rolled right and got hammered in. He was bobbing and weaving and kept retreating, back to the 30. He was surrounded and upended. "He was parallel to the ground, his feet in mid-air and he threw a pass to Pat Donnelly, who made a one-yard gain. Afterward, I asked if he really saw Pat or if he was throwing it away. "He said, 'Let's just call it my Hail Mary Play.'" So the Cowboys have got staubach and his "Hail Mary" plays, they've got running backs like Duane Thomas and Calvin Hill, they've got top receivers, a talented offensive line and the Doomsday Defense. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 12:23:12 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:23:12 -0500 Subject: "Unemployment" origin wrong in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL In-Reply-To: <200312040454.hB44sm001241@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: Yes, the Wall Street Journal is wrong that the word "unemployment" didn't exist until the late 1800s ("unemployment" is the word, Barry, connoting a sustained condition -- everyone admits that the word "unemployed" was around before then). But it is very hard to find uses of "unemployment" before the late 1800s. A very great historian, E. P. Thompson, wrote in _The Making of the English Working Class_ that he had found uses of the word earlier than the OED's (adding a snide remark that swallows appear in the British Isles weeks before the Times reports them, a remark that appears less snide now in view of the ease with which I and Barry and OED3 are demolishing OED first uses). Thompson, however, did not give any citations. Some years ago I contributed an 1800 citation to the OED. Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 12:46:18 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:46:18 -0500 Subject: More on "Unemployment" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I should add, to clarify my remarks below, that the first use for "unemployment" in the current OED is dated 1888. On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Fred Shapiro wrote: > Yes, the Wall Street Journal is wrong that the word "unemployment" didn't > exist until the late 1800s ("unemployment" is the word, Barry, connoting a > sustained condition -- everyone admits that the word "unemployed" was > around before then). But it is very hard to find uses of > "unemployment" before the late 1800s. A very great historian, E. > P. Thompson, wrote in _The Making of the English Working Class_ that he > had found uses of the word earlier than the OED's (adding a snide remark > that swallows appear in the British Isles weeks before the Times reports > them, a remark that appears less snide now in view of the ease with which > I and Barry and OED3 are demolishing OED first uses). > > Thompson, however, did not give any citations. Some years ago I > contributed an 1800 citation to the OED. > > Fred > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Dec 4 12:48:50 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:48:50 -0500 Subject: OED Pronunciation Variants In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A question came up in my site's discussion group... How does the OED order its pronunciation variants? When one is given it is obviously RP, but what about when variants are given? I couldn't find anything about this in the explanatory material. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From Ittaob at AOL.COM Thu Dec 4 13:55:09 2003 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:55:09 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20How=20to=20Speak=20Chocol?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?atese=20(Gianduja);=20Polish=20Pickup?= Message-ID: In a message dated 12/3/03 11:06:27 PM, Bapopik at aol.com writes: > (GOOGLE) > http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food/index.ssf?DEF_ID=1895 > gianduja > [zhahn-DOO-yah] > The Italian pronunciation of "gianduja" is "jahn-DOO-yah," not "zhahn-DOO-yah." Steve Boatti sjb72 at columbia.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 14:48:20 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:48:20 -0500 Subject: How to Speak Chocol atese (Gianduja); Polish Pickup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:55 AM -0500 12/4/03, Steve Boatti wrote: >In a message dated 12/3/03 11:06:27 PM, Bapopik at aol.com writes: > > >> (GOOGLE) >> http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food/index.ssf?DEF_ID=1895 >> gianduja >> [zhahn-DOO-yah] >> > >The Italian pronunciation of "gianduja" is "jahn-DOO-yah," not >"zhahn-DOO-yah." > Hyperforeignism (the Ta"ZH" Majal/Bei"ZH"ing Syndrome) strikes again! That old Freedom Fricative just keeps popping up, doesn't it? larry From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Dec 4 14:48:18 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:48:18 -0500 Subject: Hail Mary (1972) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 04:48:51AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > 15 January 1972, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 8, col. 2: [...] > "He was parallel to the ground, his feet in mid-air and he threw a pass to > Pat Donnelly, who made a one-yard gain. Afterward, I asked if he really saw > Pat or if he was throwing it away. > "He said, 'Let's just call it my Hail Mary Play.'" I find this and Sam's quote interesting, in that my conception of a Hail Mary play involves a pass that's not only unlikely to be completed, but also, long/high. A 70-yard bomb into the end zone with one receiver surrounded by the entire defense, say. Similarly with other sports. But these quotes show a use unmarked for length, where the notable factor is only the likelihood of success. Jesse Sheidlower OED From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 15:02:25 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:02:25 -0500 Subject: Hail Mary (1972) In-Reply-To: <20031204144818.GB17387@panix.com> Message-ID: At 9:48 AM -0500 12/4/03, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 04:48:51AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >> >> 15 January 1972, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 8, col. 2: >[...] >> "He was parallel to the ground, his feet in mid-air and he >>threw a pass to >> Pat Donnelly, who made a one-yard gain. Afterward, I asked if he really saw >> Pat or if he was throwing it away. >> "He said, 'Let's just call it my Hail Mary Play.'" > >I find this and Sam's quote interesting, in that my conception >of a Hail Mary play involves a pass that's not only unlikely >to be completed, but also, long/high. A 70-yard bomb into the >end zone with one receiver surrounded by the entire defense, >say. Similarly with other sports. > >But these quotes show a use unmarked for length, where the >notable factor is only the likelihood of success. > Which may be why that more general use didn't catch on. I always assumed that the quarterback was praying while the ball was in the air, so the higher and farther it went and the longer it stayed up there, the more likely the prayers were to reach Our Lady and the pass to be completed. And speaking of trajectories, I think this is a case where a Read-style trajectory of the history of the lexical item could be usefully invoked. Just as OK was helped mightily along (although not originated by) the Old Kinderhook connection and the Martin Van Buren campaign's "OK Club", it was really that long pass from Staubach to Drew ("I'm no Columnist") Pearson that eliminated the Vikings in the 1975 playoff game that put the Hail Mary on the lexical map, although clearly it had been around for at least three years before that. larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 15:01:02 2003 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:01:02 -0500 Subject: Hail Mary (1972) In-Reply-To: <20031204144818.GB17387@panix.com> Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower said: >On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 04:48:51AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >> >> 15 January 1972, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 8, col. 2: >[...] >> "He was parallel to the ground, his feet in mid-air and he >>threw a pass to >> Pat Donnelly, who made a one-yard gain. Afterward, I asked if he really saw >> Pat or if he was throwing it away. >> "He said, 'Let's just call it my Hail Mary Play.'" > >I find this and Sam's quote interesting, in that my conception >of a Hail Mary play involves a pass that's not only unlikely >to be completed, but also, long/high. A 70-yard bomb into the >end zone with one receiver surrounded by the entire defense, >say. Similarly with other sports. In addition to the "desperation, long heave" aspect of a Hail Mary, I think it also involves time running out in the half (or the game). -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 15:50:29 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:50:29 -0500 Subject: Hail Mary (1972) In-Reply-To: <20031204144818.GB17387@panix.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > I find this and Sam's quote interesting, in that my conception > of a Hail Mary play involves a pass that's not only unlikely > to be completed, but also, long/high. A 70-yard bomb into the > end zone with one receiver surrounded by the entire defense, > say. Similarly with other sports. > > But these quotes show a use unmarked for length, where the > notable factor is only the likelihood of success. Also a key element of usage is that the Hail Mary play is a desperation pass with time running out and the game on the line. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Dec 4 16:26:49 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:26:49 EST Subject: OED first uses Message-ID: In a message dated 12/4/03 7:59:00 AM, fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: > ... a remark that appears less snide now in view of the ease with which > I and Barry and OED3 are demolishing OED first uses). > Well, "demolish" strikes me as rather too strong a word. S seems to suggest that the OED was primarily conceived of as a dictionary of first uses. In fact, though interesting and occasionally even useful, "first uses" is a relatively trivial aspect of lexicography, aqnd marginal predatings by only a few years is even moreso. The OED clearly meant to suggest only that "these are the first uses that we've come up with so far," not "these are the first uses that anyone will ever find." It is a truism of lexicography that true first uses will never be in a dictionary, since they almost always are oral, not written. The fact that someone may find that, say, UNEMPLOYMENT was first used in print 5 years before the particular cite that the OED printed is certainly nice to have, but the OED is scacely "demolished" therby. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 16:36:48 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:36:48 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Make A Federal Case Out Of It" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The phrase "make a federal case out of it" is not in OED or HDAS. The earliest that has been found for this, I believe, is a 1955 _Time_ citation in Merriam-Webster's files. I have found the following on ProQuest: 1952 _N.Y. Times_ 6 Apr. X1 But we won't make a Federal case of it; the point is that "Singin' in the Rain" kids an era and a style of film-production about as well as it has ever been done. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Thu Dec 4 17:32:58 2003 From: mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:32:58 -0500 Subject: How to Speak Chocolatese (Gianduja) In-Reply-To: <200312040512.hB45Cdk8004516@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Barry wrote: >>> HOW TO SPEAK CHOCOLATESE I speak the rare Cadburian dialect. From Wednesday's NEW YORK TIMES: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/03/dining/03CGLO.html Glossary: How to Speak Chocolatese ALLOTIN The traditional long, deep box used for packing chocolates in Europe. <<< GHOST WORD ALERT! This looked wrong to me, because of all the time////money I've spent hanging out at Godiva stores. The word is "ballotin". The Times's web article begins with a large drop capital "B" as a graphic, which did not copy into Barry's text. The loss wasn't noticeable in the quote because the next word is "bloom", so the change of "ballotin" to *"allotin" didn't disrupt the alphabetical order. These drop caps are common in web articles, and one just has to be alert for them. -- Mark A. Mandel From cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU Thu Dec 4 18:14:40 2003 From: cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Clai Rice) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:14:40 -0600 Subject: "Gay" is a bad "wurd" Message-ID: Here's our local report from today's paper: http://www.theadvertiser.com/news/html/6E2B0EF0-A452-4DF5-AB87-564DD46C8F6B. shtml Both the school board president and the faculty advisor for PRIDE are English Dept faculty members and friends whose offices are right next to one another. Needless to say, the joint is jumping this morning. Clai Rice -----Original Message----- From: Kathleen E. Miller [mailto:millerk at NYTIMES.COM] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 4:05 PM Subject: FYI: "Gay" is a bad "wurd" Did anybody read this? My mouth is still open in shock... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29820-2003Dec2.html http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/03/national/03GAY.html Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Dec 4 19:35:55 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:35:55 -0800 Subject: Hail Mary (1972) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Laurence Horn : > Which may be why that more general use didn't catch on. I always > assumed that the quarterback was praying while the ball was in the > air, so the higher and farther it went and the longer it stayed up > there, the more likely the prayers were to reach Our Lady and the > pass to be completed. > > And speaking of trajectories, I think this is a case where a > Read-style trajectory of the history of the lexical item could be > usefully invoked. Just as OK was helped mightily along (although not > originated by) the Old Kinderhook connection and the Martin Van Buren > campaign's "OK Club", it was really that long pass from Staubach to > Drew ("I'm no Columnist") Pearson that eliminated the Vikings in the > 1975 playoff game that put the Hail Mary on the lexical map, although > clearly it had been around for at least three years before that. But somewhat different in that the earlier uses are all by Staubach. This would seem to be a case where the term was in his personal vocabulary, and few if any others', until the famous pass against the Vikings. As to whether the term can be applied to short dump-offs as well as long bombs, it appears as if Staubach didn't originally make a distinction. It was simply a desperation pass of any kind. The famous incident cemented the more specific sense in the general vocabulary. -- Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 19:36:19 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:36:19 -0500 Subject: OED first uses In-Reply-To: <12e.36c258ac.2d00ba49@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > Well, "demolish" strikes me as rather too strong a word. S seems to suggest > that the OED was primarily conceived of as a dictionary of first uses. > > In fact, though interesting and occasionally even useful, "first uses" > is a relatively trivial aspect of lexicography, aqnd marginal predatings > by only a few years is even moreso. The OED clearly meant to suggest > only that "these are the first uses that we've come up with so far," not > "these are the first uses that anyone will ever find." You are right that first uses are just one aspect of the OED, which also is intended to provide authoritative information on etymology, significations, illustration of usage over time, pronunciation, etc. It is easy on this listserv to forget that the OED is not all, or even primarily, about first uses. However, first uses are a significant component of what people look to the OED for, and the OED devotes a tremendous amount of effort to researching and verifying first uses. The current electronic revolution in historical-lexicographical research, spearheaded by me and Barry and the OED itself, is demolishing the first uses in the original OED and bringing more attention to first uses in general than was ever the case before. First uses now are arguably becoming a different kind of animal than they were before, approaching more closely the elusive true origins of words. (This is true even for slang vocabulary.) I think if you asked John Simpson or Jesse Sheidlower whether the word "demolish" was appropriate, they might agree that it is not too strong a word. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Dec 4 21:46:47 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:46:47 -0500 Subject: OED first uses In-Reply-To: <12e.36c258ac.2d00ba49@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 11:26:49AM -0500, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 12/4/03 7:59:00 AM, fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: > > > > ... a remark that appears less snide now in view of the ease with which > > I and Barry and OED3 are demolishing OED first uses). > > > Well, "demolish" strikes me as rather too strong a word. S seems to suggest > that the OED was primarily conceived of as a dictionary of first uses. > > In fact, though interesting and occasionally even useful, "first uses" is a > relatively trivial aspect of lexicography, aqnd marginal predatings by only a > few years is even moreso. The OED clearly meant to suggest only that "these are > the first uses that we've come up with so far," not "these are the first uses > that anyone will ever find." > > It is a truism of lexicography that true first uses will never be in a > dictionary, since they almost always are oral, not written. The fact that someone > may find that, say, UNEMPLOYMENT was first used in print 5 years before the > particular cite that the OED printed is certainly nice to have, but the OED is > scacely "demolished" therby. I might agree about the relative strength of "demolish", but I can't say I agree with much of the rest of this, Ron. While "first uses" may be a relatively trivial aspect of lexicography as a whole, it seems to me to be an enormously important aspect of historical lexicography. Certainly OED knows that in almost all cases their first quotes are not the absolute, rock-solid, this-is-the-coinage first quotes, and that we're only doing the best we can. And while it's true that many antedatings of a couple of years may be of minor import, this case strikes me as different. Here we have what is perhaps the most important financial publication in the English-speaking world making a broad claim about the cultural history of labor, based solely on a false account of the origin of a word. The (false) connection to a particular event, the panic of 1873, also serves to distort the historical record. Providing accurate information about such uses seems to me to be exactly what the purpose of the OED is, or at least a very big part of its purpose, not a minor part to be dismissed as 'relatively trivial' and 'occasionally even useful'. Jesse Sheidlower OED From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Dec 4 23:21:54 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:21:54 -0500 Subject: "Unemployment" origin wrong in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL Message-ID: For those interested in the article by Cynthia Crossen, it can be viewed at http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/12/03/financial1047EST0058.DTL The article does suggest that "unemployed" gained its current meaning of forced idleness only in the 1870s. Crossen is actually using etymology to make historical points, and going astray as she does so. Her thesis is that unemployment is a product of the industrial revolution and was unknown in America prior to that time. Actually, forced idleness among the able-bodied (whether or not called unemployment) is a very old phenomenon and was, for example, well-known in ancient Rome. That was somewhat alleviated in America because of the existence of large amounts of untilled potential farmland, a phenomenon having nothing to do with the industrial revolution. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Fred Shapiro [mailto:fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 7:23 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Unemployment" origin wrong in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL Yes, the Wall Street Journal is wrong that the word "unemployment" didn't exist until the late 1800s ("unemployment" is the word, Barry, connoting a sustained condition -- everyone admits that the word "unemployed" was around before then). But it is very hard to find uses of "unemployment" before the late 1800s. A very great historian, E. P. Thompson, wrote in _The Making of the English Working Class_ that he had found uses of the word earlier than the OED's (adding a snide remark that swallows appear in the British Isles weeks before the Times reports them, a remark that appears less snide now in view of the ease with which I and Barry and OED3 are demolishing OED first uses). Thompson, however, did not give any citations. Some years ago I contributed an 1800 citation to the OED. Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dsgood at VISI.COM Thu Dec 4 23:23:46 2003 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 17:23:46 -0600 Subject: "Gay" is a bad "wurd" In-Reply-To: <20031204181616.EA3974A27@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Clai Rice wrote: > Here's our local report from today's paper: > > http://www.theadvertiser.com/news/html/6E2B0EF0-A452-4DF5-AB87-564DD46C8F6B. > shtml "The page you requested cannot be found. It may have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable." However, it can be found at http://www.theadvertiser.com/news/html/6E2B0EF0-A452-4DF5-AB87-564DD46C8F6B.shtml There's discussion of this on The Volokh Conspiracy http://www.volokh.com, among other political blogs. > Both the school board president and the faculty advisor for PRIDE are > English Dept faculty members and friends whose offices are right next to one > another. Needless to say, the joint is jumping this morning. > > Clai Rice > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kathleen E. Miller [mailto:millerk at NYTIMES.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 4:05 PM > Subject: FYI: "Gay" is a bad "wurd" > > > Did anybody read this? My mouth is still open in shock... > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29820-2003Dec2.html > > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/03/national/03GAY.html > > > > Kathleen E. Miller > Research Assistant to William Safire > The New York Times > > -- Dan Goodman Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 5 01:50:39 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:50:39 -0500 Subject: Rumaki (1950); Kobe Beef (1959) and Wagyu (1971) Message-ID: The ProQuest LOS ANGELES TIMES is now at May 1953. We'll have "Murphy's Law" in a week or two, and maybe "the whole nine yards" by year's end. Thanks to Mark Mandel for knowing "Chocolatese" and correcting an error. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ RUMAKI I had posted 1957, from the NEW YORK TIMES. Islands Thrill Largest Cargo of Southlanders Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 23, 1950. p. C7 (1 page): Set off by shrimp, rumaki, egg roll, rum punches in bamboo cups, ami amis and other variegated hula motions, Don (Don the Beachcomber, of Hawaii--ed.) emerged as a tired Tahitian beachcomber to execute his own version of aboriginal terpsichore. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ KOBE BEEF AND WAYGU Neither "Kobe Beef" nor "Wagyu" is in the OED. The basketball player Kobe Bryant was named after Kobe Beef, a "Wagyu" that comes from Kobe, Japan. They are famous in the United States for being very expensive. Japanese food is all over the Los Angeles area, but there isn't anything much in the LOS ANGELES TIMES to May 1953. KOBE BEEF--14,300 Google hits KOBE STEAK--1,610 Google hits KOBE MEAT--57 Google hits WAGYU--12,100 Google hits From the NEW YORK SUN, 3 December 2003, pg. 19, col. 1: _The Steak Debate_ _What's the Difference Between Wagyu and Prime Beef?_ By PAUL LUKAS (...) "Wagyu" (pronounced "WAH-gyu") literally means Japanese cattle, but that's a misnomer, because the breed is actually native to the Asian mainland and was brought to Japan in the second century. (...) Depending on the cut, the Prime steaks ranged from $33 to $60 a pound--not cheap, but a relative bargain compared to the Wagyus, which ran from $53 to $118 a pound. (...) ...while the Wagyus were only a small step up from Prime. Is that step enough to justify the huge price difference? Personally, I don't think so. (GOOGLE) http://members.tripod.com/~BayGourmet/wagyu.html Kobe Beef vs Wagyu cattle: What is this stuff, anyways? Kobe Beef is a legendary delicacy of Japan, a type of beef that is so well marbled that it goes right off the charts for Prime grading in any other country. The meat ends up looking like it has been left out in the snow because of the intensiveness of the white fat marbling, rivals foie gras for richness and caloric content, and costs an obscene amount, often $300 a pound or more for the real thing from Japan. I have been exhaustively researching the topic of Kobe Beef in the hopes of purchasing one of those legendary cattle for about a year, since I had heard that they were ranched successfully in the United States for sale to a hungry Japanese market. I finally succeeded, but it wasn't an easy task. Here's why. Let's start with the basics—Kobe beef comes from a breed of cattle called Wagyu. In order to earn the designation/appellation of "Kobe Beef", the Wagyu beef must come from Kobe, Japan, and meet rigid production standards imposed in that prefecture. However, land and grain are expensive in Japan. So what is happening is that the beef production houses in Kobe have been contracting out to other producers to custom raise their cattle for them. Most specifically, Harris Ranch in California, among other producers in America and Australia—land and grain is cheap over there, and it's worth the shipping costs to have the cattle raised overseas. So they have the cattle raised to their exactingly specified Kobe standards, and they actually fabricate the carcasses in Kobe, making them legally "Kobe Beef" even though the cattle were actually born, bred and fed somewhere else. The "Wagyu beef" designation can legally be applied to the meat from any cattle of the Wagyu breed; it's a genetic thing, not a place appellation or a reference to how the cattle were raised and fed. This breed is genetically predisposed to intense marbling, and produces a higher percentage of oleaginous, unsaturated fat than any other breed of cattle known in the world. The reason for this is that Japan has been selectively breeding for marbling grade for centuries, while cattle ranchers in America relied on external conformation until just a few decades ago. Even today, carcass evaluation is a relatively new step in show judging, and only beginning to be a factor in the professional stud books of other countries. Okay, why is it so bloody expensive and hard to find? In summary, Wagyu cattle are astounding in yield grade and marbling, significantly superior in this respect to any other known breed. So why aren't more farmers ranching them in America? Simple. Not enough of a market. The massive supermarket chains (Safeway, Lucky, FoodsCo, etc) carry Select grade beef which has minimal marbling. They restructured and lowered the grading of beef itself at one point (I think in the 1940's, but I could be mistaken on this) to reflect a more conservation conscious economy, because cattle fed out to a lower ratio of marbling were a more efficient return on resources. So today's Select grade beef (which is below Prime and below Choice) is lean indeed, the equivalent of pre-war Good grade. While Wagyu beef has healthier fat (if there is such a thing!) and less waste backfat that American breeds, lean and skinny it is not, and the market for high prime beef is very limited in America. It's fit to mass market only in Japan, so there it all goes, even if it's largely ranched elsewhere these days. Annoyingly, when we in America want to purchase Wagyu, we have one of two options: we can buy it shipped back over from Japan at some insane cost per pound that includes two transoceanic fares, or we can try to track down an independent Wagyu rancher who will sell one carcass. This is harder than you think. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR) TRAVEL/EDITOR'S DIARY by Leavitt F. morris. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Nov 23, 1965. p. 15 (1 page): Then came the elaborate menu offering such choices as Kobe beef, lamb chops, or chicken, and all that goes with them. This sumptuous meal was served prior to the fueling stop in Tokyo. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEW YORK TIMES) Display Ad 21 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 26, 1959. p. 21 (1 page): One special delicacy served on Northwest flights out of Tokyo is filet mignon from world famous Kobe Beef. Japan Pampers Contented Cows; Favor Is Returned in Steaks Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 13, 1960. p. 127 (1 page): Not all of this beef comes from Matsuzaka, whose fine product is less well known abroad than "Kobe beef," so called because so much of the output of the cattle-raising centers in southern Honshu us shipped through that busy port on the Pacific side of the island. (...) Twice a day, every day, the animal is brushed and given a rubdown with a bundle of rough rice straw after being sprayed with "shochu," a cheap, potent potato distillation favored as an intoxicating drink by Japanese lower classes. FAIR'S KITCHENS: STUDIES IN STEEL By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 20, 1964. p. 25 (1 page): Hank Takeshi Takahashi, as assistant manager, said that the Kobe beef for the restaurant will be flown in from Japan. Kobe beef, one of the most tender beefs, comes from animals that are massaged and fed beer before they are slaughtered. A Pampered Life Ends as Steak at $14 a Pound By JAMES P. STERBA Special to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 8, 1971. p. 48 (1 page): Many Americans have heard of or tasted Kobe beef, but in Japan these days Matsuzaka beef is considered superior. (...) Matsuzaka and Kobe cows are the same breed--a Japanese shorthair called wagyu--and are raised essentially the same way, but cattlemen here insist that their beef has more flavor. Rich Japanese Beef Barred From U.S. By BRYAN MILLER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 18, 1990. p. C1 (2 pages) Rich Japanese Beef's Here. Call It Wagyu. By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 7, 1990. p. C9 (1 page) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL WASHINGTON POST) Kobe Beef -- From Pampered Pet to Costly Steak By Rose Dosti Los Angeles Times. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jul 27, 1978. p. E20 (1 page) (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark KOBE BEEF Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 029. US 046. G & S: PACKAGED CUT MEATS FROM REGISTERED WAGYU BEEF CATTLE. FIRST USE: 19760226. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19760226 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73707432 Filing Date January 25, 1988 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) WAGYU BREEDERS, INC. CORPORATION TEXAS BOX 187 ROUTE 1 ROSEBUD TEXAS 76570 Attorney of Record J. D. SHERLOCK, JR. Description of Mark NO CLAIM IS MADE AS TO COLOR. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date November 7, 1988 (JSTOR) (in Review Section) Beef in Japan: Politics, Production, Marketing and Trade John W. Longworth Technological Change in Japan's Beef Industry James Simpson; Tadashi Yoshida; Akira Miyazaki; Ryohei Kada Review author[s]: Fred H. Sanderson Journal of Japanese Studies, Vol. 13, No. 1. (Winter, 1987), pp. 224-229. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 02:05:10 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:05:10 -0500 Subject: Rumaki (1950); Kobe Beef (1959) and Wagyu (1971) In-Reply-To: <7B67B00F.60654D84.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > The ProQuest LOS ANGELES TIMES is now at May 1953. We'll have > "Murphy's Law" in a week or two, and maybe "the whole nine yards" by > year's end. But haven't we already passed the big "Murphy's Law" milestone, seeing that John Paul Stapp's celebrated 1950 press conference is not covered by the L.A. Times? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 5 03:11:36 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:11:36 -0500 Subject: Mom-and-Pop Store (1943); Heirhead (1988); Subway Series (1932) Message-ID: MOM-AND-POP STORE The revised OED has 1951? Fair Enough WESTBROOK PEGLER. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 9, 1943. p. A (1 page): NEW YORK, July 8.--You take my friend Joe, a member of the numerous Spelvin tribe of Americans and a first cousin of George Spelvin, the All-American American. Joe is a one-horse grocer. His little pitch is what the big chains and certain government agencies call a Mom and Pop store. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HEIRHEADS Paris Hilton is not an "heirhead." She just doesn't know what a "well" is! She's just not "well" educated! But not an heirhead! Column Name: CAMPAIGN REPORT Section: NEWS Publication title: San Francisco Chronicle (pre-1997 Fulltext). San Francisco, Calif.: Oct 21, 1988. pg. A.28 Source Type: Newspaper `NEWSPAPER NEEDLES QUAYLE "Quayle Becomes President `Uh-Oh,' Says Worried Nation." That headline appears on a free, single-page broadsheet, the Washington Possible, that lampoons Republican vice presidential candidate Dan Quayle. It is being circulated in a half-dozen cities. Josh Baran, a Los Angeles public relations man, "conceived and produced" the paper. Its $25,000 cost was paid by 32-year-old Jeremy Sherman of San Francisco, an heir to the Midas Muffler fortune, who said of Quayle, "He may be representative of some of our generation in his empty-headedness, but we can expect more from ourselves." The 20,000-circulation Washington Possible, dated Oct. 21, 19??, imagines the "sudden death" of President George Bush ("See Bush Dies Suddenly, Sec. B, Page 12"). A small picture below the fold depicts the "Inaugural Hole:" "9th hole (Par 4, 350 yds.) at Chevy Chase CC. After Quayle took oath of office at tee, he shot a double bogey six." Quayle's career is summarized: "From Heirhead to President." (WWW.NYTIMES.COM) ARTS AND LEISURE DESK | November 16, 2003, Sunday $ TELEVISION; The Season of the Heirheads By DWIGHT GARNER (NYT) 1603 words (PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS) Copyright 2003 The American Prospect, Inc. The American Prospect April, 2003 SECTION: DEVIL IN THE DETAILS; Pg. 10 LENGTH: 692 words HEADLINE: Recalling Gray BODY: YOU MAY HAVE THOUGHT the 2002 elections were over, but a fat lot you know. Just three months after he squeaked to victory over a certifiable stiff, California Gov. Gray Davis may be facing a formidable recall campaign. Recalls, as our more historically minded readers surely recall, were instituted to remove elected officials who'd done something dreadful but who wouldn't be facing the voters for some time to come. In this instance, however, no one is alleging that Davis has done anything of questionable legality, much less since November. It's just that the Republicans want another shot at him, and still believe that if they'd had a sentient nominee last fall, they would have won. (Their nominee last year, businessman Bill Simon Jr., calls to mind few comparable figures in contemporary politics, but if you've ever seen Rudy Vallee playing his usual smiling, clueless, heirhead millionaire in a '30s or '40s comedy, you'll get the picture.) (LEXIS-NEXIS) Copyright 2003 Cox Enterprises, Inc. Cox News Service December 1, 2003 Monday SECTION: Entertainment, Television and Culture LENGTH: 1320 words HEADLINE: How you gonna keep them off the farm when they've seen Paris BYLINE: KEVIN D. THOMPSON DATELINE: WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. BODY: Dancing on tables at wild parties. Catfighting in a club over some guy. Taping yourself having sex _ and then taking a cellphone call in the middle of the shenanigans! No wonder they're calling Paris Hilton an "heirhead." Not that those highly publicized exploits are hurting 22-year-old Paris, who along with her younger sister, Nicky, 21, is heir to the $3.8 billion Hilton hotel fortune and Hollywood's latest It Girl. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SUBWAY SERIES The earliest from the newly digitized SPORTING NEWS. Again, I didn't see "subway series" used during the 1921, 1922, and 1923 Yankees-Giants matchups. Ancestry had a "subway series" from 1928. 22 September 1932, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 3, col. 6: It was Hug who piloted the Yanks in their three subway series with the Giants--in 1921, 1922 and 1923. From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Dec 5 03:33:45 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:33:45 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20OED=20first=20uses?= Message-ID: Very sensible and wise words, Jesse. Thanks. I did not mean to be dismissive: if first uses were totally useless and trivial, it would be a waste of space to print them at all. Quite right that this seems indeed to be one of those occasions when establishing first use may be quite important. In a message dated 12/4/03 4:47:14 PM, jester at PANIX.COM writes: > Certainly OED knows that in almost all cases their first > quotes are not the absolute, rock-solid, this-is-the-coinage > first quotes, and that we're only doing the best we can. > > And while it's true that many antedatings of a couple of years > may be of minor import, this case strikes me as different. Here > we have what is perhaps the most important financial > publication in the English-speaking world making a broad > claim about the cultural history of labor, based solely on a > false account of the origin of a word. The (false) connection > to a particular event, the panic of 1873, also serves to > distort the historical record. > > Providing accurate information about such uses seems to me to > be exactly what the purpose of the OED is, or at least a very > big part of its purpose, not a minor part to be dismissed as > 'relatively trivial' and 'occasionally even useful'. > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 5 08:36:39 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 03:36:39 EST Subject: Fungee, Chibble, Gooks, Spigs (1920) Message-ID: ROAMING THROUGH THE WEST INDIES by Harry A. Franck New York: Blue Ribbon Books 1920 "Fungi" or "fungee" is still earlier. Harry Franck (1881-?) was a great American travel writer. His books, although without footnotes, are well detailed, and he's especially interested in language. His book about Panama, ZONE POLICEMAN 88 (1913), has "spigotty." OED cites him only 10 times. I haven't read Franck that much because I've been concentrating on older stuff (1600s and 1700s and 1800s), but NYU has most of his books. I'll check soon to see if WALKING NORTH OF PATAGONIA (1921) has "dulce de leche." It must be nice to be a travel writer. I never get to go anywhere. Pg. 28: Baseball--commonly pronounced "bahseh-bahl" throughout the island--has won a firm foothold in Cuba. (Not "beisbol"?--ed.) Pg. 66: Musically the Cuban is best at the native _danzon_, a refinement of the savage African _rumba_. (OED has 1922 for "rhumba." M-W has 1916--ed.) Pg. 99: There are lobsters also, and the finest of all Cuban sea foods is the _congrejo moro_, a huge crab with a beautiful red and black shell. Pg. 103: Graft, known in Cuba as "_chivo_," is hereditary in the chief of the West Indies. Pg. 180: The majority of our forces of occupation are so decidedly a credit to their country that it needed the contrast of such types as these to explain why the "Gooks," as the natives are popularly known among their class, generally resent our presence on Haitian soil. Pg. 203: First of all there were the "chivo" cigars,--_chivo_ meaning not merely goat but something corresponding to our word "graft" in the Spanish West Indies--which never made any pretense of bearing a stamp. Pg. 204: "Big George" arranged that we should spend the first Sunday after our arrival in the most typical Dominican style of celebration,--the partaking of _lechon asado_. Pg. 239: I should like to see all those removed from our forces of occupation who have not a proper respect for Dominicans; not an unbounded respect--I haven't that myself--but who at least admit that our wards are human beings, with their own rights and customs, and not merely "Spigs" and "niggers." Pg. 297: A more serious thing is the prevalence of "t. b."--which missionaries on the island dub "tin box." Pg. 306: In local parlance a "five minutes' walk" means a block. (Virgin Islands--ed.) Pg. 308: This is a plate of "fungee," a nauseating mixture of fish and corn-meal, which to the local taste is preferable to the most succulent beefsteak. Pg. 333: There is no hookworm and little malaria; but much pellagra and "big leg," or elephantiasis. Pg. 334: The doctors of "West End" found nothing unusual in the case of a baby that was brought to the hostial already dead because the father had taken it first to a native healer, who put "chibble" (pot herbs) under its nose to cure it of acute indigestion. ("Chibble" is not in the OED--ed.) Pg. 342: This had magnified the constant enmity between the St. Kittens--or whatever is the proper term--and the inhabitants of "that other country," as they called it;... Pg. 287: Parasites and climbing lianas, that death-dealing vine called _matapalo_ by the Spaniards and "Scotch attorney" by the Trinidadians, which finally chokes to death the tree that sustains it, usurping its heritage of nourishment, give the forest wall the appearance of a great carelessly woven tapestry. (OED has "Scotch attorney" from 1864, but it's nicely described here. Those evil lawyers!--ed.) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Dec 5 10:30:40 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 04:30:40 -0600 Subject: Fungee, Chibble, Gooks, Spigs (1920)---(look at "chivo") Message-ID: "chivo"--- goat, graft. What's the connection? Gerald Cohen -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Bapopik at AOL.COM Sent: Fri 12/5/2003 2:36 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Fungee, Chibble, Gooks, Spigs (1920) ROAMING THROUGH THE WEST INDIES by Harry A. Franck New York: Blue Ribbon Books 1920 ... Pg. 103: Graft, known in Cuba as "_chivo_," is hereditary in the chief of the West Indies. Pg. 203: First of all there were the "chivo" cigars,--_chivo_ meaning not merely goat but something corresponding to our word "graft" in the Spanish West Indies--which never made any pretense of bearing a stamp. ... From db.list at PMPKN.NET Fri Dec 5 13:55:03 2003 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:55:03 -0500 Subject: How to Speak Chocolatese (Gianduja); Polish Pickup Message-ID: From: Laurence Horn : At 8:55 AM -0500 12/4/03, Steve Boatti wrote: :: In a message dated 12/3/03 11:06:27 PM, Bapopik at aol.com writes: ::: (GOOGLE) ::: http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food/index.ssf?DEF_ID=1895 ::: gianduja ::: [zhahn-DOO-yah] :: The Italian pronunciation of "gianduja" is "jahn-DOO-yah," not :: "zhahn-DOO-yah." : Hyperforeignism (the Ta"ZH" Majal/Bei"ZH"ing Syndrome) strikes again! : That old Freedom Fricative just keeps popping up, doesn't it? I don't know if this is necessarily hyperforeignism--some of us simply have rampant [Z]s where others might have [dZ]s. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Dec 5 15:20:58 2003 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:20:58 -0600 Subject: Cowboy Lingo? Message-ID: There is a difference between cowboy lingo which I would guess is by and large a Hollywood invention and the way cowboys actually speak. The following is a poem by Curly Fletcher entitled The Open Book. You will note that cowboys are an inside group and have little use for Hollywood. Having lived with and worked with a cowboy I know of what I say. Page Stephens The Open BookDigital Tradition Mirror The Open Book (Curly Fletcher) You've been tamped full of shit about cowboys; They are known as a romantic band-- Bold knights of the saddle, who round up wild cattle, And roll cigarettes with one hand. Now according to movie and story, He's a sheik in a ten gallon hat. All he knows of romance is the crotch of his pants, What the hell do you think about that? So it's high time somebody debunked him; He's so plumb full of crap, and, besides, A bullshittin' bastard who's always half-plastered Is no hero just 'cause he rides. Now I've harvested wool in Wyoming And rawhide in New Mexico. I've worn a bandana in Sheepshit, Montana, And raped squaws over in Idaho. So me, I'm plumb soured on cowpunchers; In fact, I ride sour long ago. The clap ridden slats in their ten gallon hats Ain't worth a damn that I know. But each range breeds its own brand of bastard And boozefighter, bugger or bum; Every half-assed vaquero who wears a sombrero Is marked by the range he is from. Some come from the Canadian Rockies, Some drift from the southwestern plains. It surely beats hell, but it's easy to tell Where each learned to tighten his reins. Take for instance the Panhandle hairpin, Widely known by the moniker "Tex"; He's a son-of-a-bitch with a bad trigger itch And a big Bowie knife complex. Why at heart he's an unpaid policeman, And he'll brag of tough spots he's been in. But his powder is damp, and his gun hand will cramp When he draws near a cotton gin. Take the clip-cock from California, He's been christened "The Native Son." A half-baked vaquero who has no dinero, But no worse than the general run. He's a cross between a greaser and gringo, Produced by the whore from the mine, A renegade breed that's gone plumb to seed, Since the gold rush of forty-nine. There's boosters from Oklahoma, And bastards from Arkansas, But they're just cotton pickers and tinhorn dice lickers With not too much in their craw. There's the pistol prick out in Nebraska, He's known as the corn sucker class. >From the cootie that crawls on his crab ridden balls To the piles that blister his ass. Count the cocksman from Colorado, Where Pike's Peak ponders and broods. A miner and mucker, the phony cock-sucker, And his racket is wranglin' dudes. He sponsors a double-rigged saddle; His gifts are the gifts of the gab; With a rope made of grass and teeth in his ass, The best he can get is the tab. Take the "never sweat" from Nevada, He's known as the "Son of the Sage." A tinhorn card hustler and discard cunt rustler, A throw back to some ancient age. He sponsors a center-fire saddle, And his brains have a chronic limp. Just a contrary fart and a cow thief at heart, And actually just a lunch bucket pimp. Now we can't overlook Arizona; He's a son of the old Sacatone. An ornery critter and a famous bullshitter, About the sorriest seed ever sown. He's bothered by Mexican heartburn With protruding piles and gut; A red hot tamale is right down his alley, 'Tis a diet his ass hole can't cut. There's that whistle-prick out there in Utah; He was sired by old Brigham Young, The sap sucking swizzler and cunt cheating chiseler, Of the barrel he's only the bung. Often called the crying Jack Mormon, His penchant is guzzling booze. He's got a round ass and can't ride nor lass', And he'd give a sad jackass the blues. There's a flute blower out in Dakota, Just a liar, and, what's more, A psalm singing sooner, a guitar picking crooner And as worthless as tits on a boar. His tongue is diseased with diarrhea, The half-breed gut eating tramp. He knows more of plows than he savies of cows, And was born with his ass in a cramp. That greaser from down in Chihuahua, He claims he's a cowpuncher, too. He curses the gringo in that Mexican lingo, But that's about all he can do. He sponsors a rawhide riata, And he straddles a silver trimmed rig; Just a counterfeit chump, the result of a hump, Twixt a Spaniard, a Yaqui, and a Jig. There's a herd in the Hollywood movies; You can find them at Sunset and Gower. And brother to brother they bullshit each other, And just bellyache by the hour. 'Course they're just a mixed bunch of bastards Of that there is damn little doubt. And each sorry hand wears the mark of the brand Of the country that had him run out. All in all, they're considered half-witted And the curse of the wide open west. Whether Canada twister or Oregon mister, They're just sons of bitches at best. No, there isn't much difference in cowboys, Whether hemorrhoid, stool or hard turd; Spring, summer, and fall, I've rode with them all And maintain they're a plumb sorry herd. Now I might be a gullible gunsel, But at that, why, I ain't too damn dumb; If a she-sheep don't cross with her herder or boss, Where in hell are them cowpunchers from? So now that I've opened the ledger On cowpunchers as they be, Some frijole chomper or half-assed bronc stomper Will kick all the shit out of me. Now, just so you won't die of wonder, Why a "Native Son" is what I am, And what I've tried hard to say in an indirect way Is that cowpunchers ain't worth a damn. As for those I've neglected to mention, Why, it's not that I can't find the rhyme; But between you and me, I've got work to do And those bastards just ain't worth my time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Dacolias" To: Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 3:54 AM Subject: Cowboy Lingo? > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Chris Dacolias > Subject: Cowboy Lingo? > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > My question regards a dialect spoken in the west after > the civil war and before the turn of the century in > the American west. Some might call this a version of > "cowboy language". This dialect was consistently used > during the recent film "Open Range" a western set in > 1888 starring Kevin Costner. In an interview, Costner > referred to the dialect as "Victorian language". I > didn't know quite what he meant. > > An example of the dialect follows: > "We got a warrant sworn for attempted murder for them > that tried to kill the boy who's laying over there at > the Doc's, trying to stay alive. Swore out another one > for them that murdered the big fella you had in your > cell. Only ours ain't writ by no tin star, bought and > paid for, Marshall. It's writ by us, and we aim to > enforce it." > > "for them that tried to kill the boy" really stands > out as a great example of the grammar of this dialect. > It's not merely poor grammar, there's a style and > consistency to it. > > Can anyone help me identify what characteristics unite > this dialect, or where I can find out more information > about it? > > Thank you very much. > Konrad O"Milor > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now > http://companion.yahoo.com/ From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Dec 5 15:58:12 2003 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:58:12 -0500 Subject: Cowboy Lingo? In-Reply-To: <001601c3bb43$6ad80210$1140bc3f@D552FS31> Message-ID: I have no doubt that this poem characterizes (some?) cowboys, but it says nothing about the dialect they used beyond some (probable) lexical items--most of them shared throughout the English-speaking world. The only grammatical diagnostic I see (beyond the commonplace "ain't" and "I've rode") is "plumb," as in "plumb soured" and "gone plumb to seed." In both cases it's an intensifying adverb and is commonly used in the South Midland even today. And the "surely" in stanza 7 is the mark of the poet, not the cowboy. At 09:20 AM 12/5/2003 -0600, you wrote: >There is a difference between cowboy lingo which I would guess is by and >large a Hollywood invention and the way cowboys actually speak. > >The following is a poem by Curly Fletcher entitled The Open Book. > >You will note that cowboys are an inside group and have little use for >Hollywood. > >Having lived with and worked with a cowboy I know of what I say. > >Page Stephens > > The Open BookDigital Tradition Mirror > >The Open Book >(Curly Fletcher) > >You've been tamped full of shit about cowboys; >They are known as a romantic band-- >Bold knights of the saddle, who round up wild cattle, >And roll cigarettes with one hand. > >Now according to movie and story, >He's a sheik in a ten gallon hat. >All he knows of romance is the crotch of his pants, >What the hell do you think about that? > >So it's high time somebody debunked him; >He's so plumb full of crap, and, besides, >A bullshittin' bastard who's always half-plastered >Is no hero just 'cause he rides. > >Now I've harvested wool in Wyoming >And rawhide in New Mexico. >I've worn a bandana in Sheepshit, Montana, >And raped squaws over in Idaho. > >So me, I'm plumb soured on cowpunchers; >In fact, I ride sour long ago. >The clap ridden slats in their ten gallon hats >Ain't worth a damn that I know. > >But each range breeds its own brand of bastard >And boozefighter, bugger or bum; >Every half-assed vaquero who wears a sombrero >Is marked by the range he is from. > >Some come from the Canadian Rockies, >Some drift from the southwestern plains. >It surely beats hell, but it's easy to tell >Where each learned to tighten his reins. > >Take for instance the Panhandle hairpin, >Widely known by the moniker "Tex"; >He's a son-of-a-bitch with a bad trigger itch >And a big Bowie knife complex. > >Why at heart he's an unpaid policeman, >And he'll brag of tough spots he's been in. >But his powder is damp, and his gun hand will cramp >When he draws near a cotton gin. > >Take the clip-cock from California, >He's been christened "The Native Son." >A half-baked vaquero who has no dinero, >But no worse than the general run. > >He's a cross between a greaser and gringo, >Produced by the whore from the mine, >A renegade breed that's gone plumb to seed, >Since the gold rush of forty-nine. > >There's boosters from Oklahoma, >And bastards from Arkansas, >But they're just cotton pickers and tinhorn dice lickers >With not too much in their craw. > >There's the pistol prick out in Nebraska, >He's known as the corn sucker class. > From the cootie that crawls on his crab ridden balls >To the piles that blister his ass. > >Count the cocksman from Colorado, >Where Pike's Peak ponders and broods. >A miner and mucker, the phony cock-sucker, >And his racket is wranglin' dudes. > >He sponsors a double-rigged saddle; >His gifts are the gifts of the gab; >With a rope made of grass and teeth in his ass, >The best he can get is the tab. > >Take the "never sweat" from Nevada, >He's known as the "Son of the Sage." >A tinhorn card hustler and discard cunt rustler, >A throw back to some ancient age. > >He sponsors a center-fire saddle, >And his brains have a chronic limp. >Just a contrary fart and a cow thief at heart, >And actually just a lunch bucket pimp. > >Now we can't overlook Arizona; >He's a son of the old Sacatone. >An ornery critter and a famous bullshitter, >About the sorriest seed ever sown. > >He's bothered by Mexican heartburn >With protruding piles and gut; >A red hot tamale is right down his alley, >'Tis a diet his ass hole can't cut. > >There's that whistle-prick out there in Utah; >He was sired by old Brigham Young, >The sap sucking swizzler and cunt cheating chiseler, >Of the barrel he's only the bung. > >Often called the crying Jack Mormon, >His penchant is guzzling booze. >He's got a round ass and can't ride nor lass', >And he'd give a sad jackass the blues. > >There's a flute blower out in Dakota, >Just a liar, and, what's more, >A psalm singing sooner, a guitar picking crooner >And as worthless as tits on a boar. > >His tongue is diseased with diarrhea, >The half-breed gut eating tramp. >He knows more of plows than he savies of cows, >And was born with his ass in a cramp. > >That greaser from down in Chihuahua, >He claims he's a cowpuncher, too. >He curses the gringo in that Mexican lingo, >But that's about all he can do. > >He sponsors a rawhide riata, >And he straddles a silver trimmed rig; >Just a counterfeit chump, the result of a hump, >Twixt a Spaniard, a Yaqui, and a Jig. > >There's a herd in the Hollywood movies; >You can find them at Sunset and Gower. >And brother to brother they bullshit each other, >And just bellyache by the hour. > >'Course they're just a mixed bunch of bastards >Of that there is damn little doubt. >And each sorry hand wears the mark of the brand >Of the country that had him run out. > >All in all, they're considered half-witted >And the curse of the wide open west. >Whether Canada twister or Oregon mister, >They're just sons of bitches at best. > >No, there isn't much difference in cowboys, >Whether hemorrhoid, stool or hard turd; >Spring, summer, and fall, I've rode with them all >And maintain they're a plumb sorry herd. > >Now I might be a gullible gunsel, >But at that, why, I ain't too damn dumb; >If a she-sheep don't cross with her herder or boss, >Where in hell are them cowpunchers from? > >So now that I've opened the ledger >On cowpunchers as they be, >Some frijole chomper or half-assed bronc stomper >Will kick all the shit out of me. > >Now, just so you won't die of wonder, >Why a "Native Son" is what I am, >And what I've tried hard to say in an indirect way >Is that cowpunchers ain't worth a damn. > >As for those I've neglected to mention, >Why, it's not that I can't find the rhyme; >But between you and me, I've got work to do >And those bastards just ain't worth my time. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Chris Dacolias" >To: >Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 3:54 AM >Subject: Cowboy Lingo? > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail >header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Chris Dacolias > > Subject: Cowboy Lingo? > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >----- > > > > My question regards a dialect spoken in the west after > > the civil war and before the turn of the century in > > the American west. Some might call this a version of > > "cowboy language". This dialect was consistently used > > during the recent film "Open Range" a western set in > > 1888 starring Kevin Costner. In an interview, Costner > > referred to the dialect as "Victorian language". I > > didn't know quite what he meant. > > > > An example of the dialect follows: > > "We got a warrant sworn for attempted murder for them > > that tried to kill the boy who's laying over there at > > the Doc's, trying to stay alive. Swore out another one > > for them that murdered the big fella you had in your > > cell. Only ours ain't writ by no tin star, bought and > > paid for, Marshall. It's writ by us, and we aim to > > enforce it." > > > > "for them that tried to kill the boy" really stands > > out as a great example of the grammar of this dialect. > > It's not merely poor grammar, there's a style and > > consistency to it. > > > > Can anyone help me identify what characteristics unite > > this dialect, or where I can find out more information > > about it? > > > > Thank you very much. > > Konrad O"Milor > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now > > http://companion.yahoo.com/ From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Dec 5 17:09:48 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:09:48 -0500 Subject: Cowboy Lingo? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031205104717.00a860a0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Owen Ulph's book, /The Fiddleback/, is a good resource in this connection. An ex-academic, Ulph quit teaching to take up ranching in Nevada many years ago, and has paid particular attention to cowboy language & culture. A. Murie A. Murie Nomless in Northern NY sagehen at westelcom.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 18:16:13 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:16:13 -0500 Subject: the Freedom Fricative In-Reply-To: <138d01c3bb37$6d7ab6e0$84fbab0a@DJJ3J631> Message-ID: At 8:55 AM -0500 12/5/03, David Bowie wrote: >From: Laurence Horn >: At 8:55 AM -0500 12/4/03, Steve Boatti wrote: >:: In a message dated 12/3/03 11:06:27 PM, Bapopik at aol.com writes: > >::: (GOOGLE) >::: http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food/index.ssf?DEF_ID=1895 >::: gianduja >::: [zhahn-DOO-yah] > >:: The Italian pronunciation of "gianduja" is "jahn-DOO-yah," not >:: "zhahn-DOO-yah." > >: Hyperforeignism (the Ta"ZH" Majal/Bei"ZH"ing Syndrome) strikes again! >: That old Freedom Fricative just keeps popping up, doesn't it? > >I don't know if this is necessarily hyperforeignism--some of us simply have >rampant [Z]s where others might have [dZ]s. > Well, the term "hyperforeignism", admittedly not self-explanatory, is motivated by the idea that such speakers are generalizing the fact that French words/names have the [Z] fricative to the practice of spreading this [Z] to other foreign names, even when the language in question has no [Z]. So the use of [Z] in Beijing, Taj Mahal, Gianduja, etc., is not attributable to a fact about either English or of Mandarin/Hindi(?)/Italian, but ultimately to a fact about French (and about English speakers' treatment of French as the foreign language par excellence and/or the prestige foreign language). larry From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Dec 5 18:26:07 2003 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:26:07 -0500 Subject: the Freedom Fricative In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yeah, imagine how irate us Hunkeys get when Kodaly and even Bartok get syllable-final stress under this rule. By the way, not one yet seems to have commented on the young women who teaches "Overnmitt" (an Arby's ad character) to say 'au jus'. Although she does not use a front-rounded vowel, she does not use the final /s/ (which Ovenmitt does), and that appears to be the point of her repetitions. Interestingly, however, the voice over which follows this linguistic lesson still notes that we should try this stuff "with au jus." Phonology first; lexicon next appears to be the rule. dInIs >At 8:55 AM -0500 12/5/03, David Bowie wrote: >>From: Laurence Horn >>: At 8:55 AM -0500 12/4/03, Steve Boatti wrote: >>:: In a message dated 12/3/03 11:06:27 PM, Bapopik at aol.com writes: >> >>::: (GOOGLE) >>::: http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food/index.ssf?DEF_ID=1895 >>::: gianduja >>::: [zhahn-DOO-yah] >> >>:: The Italian pronunciation of "gianduja" is "jahn-DOO-yah," not >>:: "zhahn-DOO-yah." >> >>: Hyperforeignism (the Ta"ZH" Majal/Bei"ZH"ing Syndrome) strikes again! >>: That old Freedom Fricative just keeps popping up, doesn't it? >> >>I don't know if this is necessarily hyperforeignism--some of us simply have >>rampant [Z]s where others might have [dZ]s. >> >Well, the term "hyperforeignism", admittedly not self-explanatory, is >motivated by the idea that such speakers are generalizing the fact >that French words/names have the [Z] fricative to the practice of >spreading this [Z] to other foreign names, even when the language in >question has no [Z]. So the use of [Z] in Beijing, Taj Mahal, >Gianduja, etc., is not attributable to a fact about either English or >of Mandarin/Hindi(?)/Italian, but ultimately to a fact about French >(and about English speakers' treatment of French as the foreign >language par excellence and/or the prestige foreign language). > >larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 18:34:16 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:34:16 -0500 Subject: the Freedom Fricative In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:26 PM -0500 12/5/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Yeah, imagine how irate us Hunkeys get when Kodaly and even Bartok >get syllable-final stress under this rule. > >By the way, not one yet seems to have commented on the young women >who teaches "Overnmitt" (an Arby's ad character) to say 'au jus'. >Although she does not use a front-rounded vowel, she does not use the >final /s/ (which Ovenmitt does), and that appears to be the point of >her repetitions. > >Interestingly, however, the voice over which follows this linguistic >lesson still notes that we should try this stuff "with au jus." > >Phonology first; lexicon next appears to be the rule. > >dInIs And let's not forget the wonderful practice of out-Frenching the French, as in the rendering of "coup de grâce" as "KOO D'GRAH" instead of "KOO D'GRAHS". larry From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Dec 5 19:06:15 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 14:06:15 -0500 Subject: the Freedom Fricative In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >And let's not forget the wonderful practice of out-Frenching the >French, as in the rendering of "coup de grâce" as "KOO D'GRAH" >instead of "KOO D'GRAHS". > >larry ~~~~~~~ and verdigris........(possibly under the misapprehension that the last syllable refers to grey, not Greece). A.Murie From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Dec 5 23:16:07 2003 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 17:16:07 -0600 Subject: Cowboy Lingo? Message-ID: There are a lot of terms Curly's poem which are idiosyncratic to cowboys at least to my knowledge. A few: learned to tighten his reins center-fire saddle gunsel (in the sense of a person who can't find his saddle with both hands not a queer or person who handles a gun) silver trimmed rig There are others but I don't have the time to pick them out. In general, however, it is the inside jokes about cowboys which distinguish it. I do not know about grammar but I ain't a grammarian. As to the mark of the poet as opposed to the cowboy. One thing cowboys are noted for is their poetry. Perhaps this is due to the loneliness of ranch life -- I can vouch for this since I spent a couple of years living on a small ranch a few miles outside Noplace, Arkansas which is about ten miles outside Plumb Lost -- but for many many years The Western Horseman has published poetry and today there are many cowboy poetry get togethers in different areas of the US. The best known cowboy poet these days is Baxter Black but in earlier days there were Curly, of course, Haywire Mac McClintock, Badger Clark, D.J. O'Malley, Romaine Loudermilk and many others including if you want to Owen Wister the author of The Virginian who wrote 10,000 Cattle Straying. By the way Curly Fletcher's best known poem/song is The Strawberry Roan which he himself parodied as The Castration of The Strawberry Roan so according to legend he could do it before somebody else did. The difference between the two versions can be summarized in comparing the first four lines of each: I was standing around just a spending my time. Nothing else to spend not even a dime. When a fellow comes up and he says I suppose That you're a bronk rider by the looks of your clothes. as opposed to: I was hanging around in a house of ill fame. Laid up with a twist of a hustling dame When a hop headed pig with his nose full of coke Beat me out of my whore and left me stone broke. A story about The Open Book which I heard in the deep dark past was that Curly was sitting at a bar with Slim Pickens and mentioned the fact that one time he had written the poem but had long since lost any copy of it. Slim then said not to worry because he had memorized it and proceeded to recite it. I cannot vouch for the veracity of either of these stories but they make for good telling which is what cowboys love to do since they have so much time on their hands. Page Stephens PS. When I got out to Ohio where they all ride English I was puzzled about how they rode horses until I learned that: walk = walk trot = jog canter = lope and gallop = gallop ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beverly Flanigan" To: Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:58 AM Subject: Re: Cowboy Lingo? > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: Cowboy Lingo? > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > I have no doubt that this poem characterizes (some?) cowboys, but it says > nothing about the dialect they used beyond some (probable) lexical > items--most of them shared throughout the English-speaking world. The only > grammatical diagnostic I see (beyond the commonplace "ain't" and "I've > rode") is "plumb," as in "plumb soured" and "gone plumb to seed." In both > cases it's an intensifying adverb and is commonly used in the South Midland > even today. And the "surely" in stanza 7 is the mark of the poet, not the > cowboy. > From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Dec 5 22:31:36 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 17:31:36 -0500 Subject: Cowboy Lingo? In-Reply-To: <004101c3bb85$cc14b720$7428bc3f@D552FS31> Message-ID: There is also "Cowboy Lingo" by Ramon F. Adams. First published 1936. Reprinted 2000 by Houghton Mifflin, ISBN 0-618-08349-9. It's a strictly lexical reference, but good coverage of that aspect of cowboy speech. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Fri Dec 5 22:37:17 2003 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 17:37:17 -0500 Subject: the Freedom Fricative In-Reply-To: <200312051828.AOG87368@mirapointmr2.wayne.edu> Message-ID: At 01:26 PM 12/5/2003, you wrote: >Yeah, imagine how irate us Hunkeys get when Kodaly and even Bartok >get syllable-final stress under this rule. Many years ago Frank Anshen (are you on this list, Frank?) referred to this tendency as the 'Kabool Rule' (this was long before we learned the 'correct' way to pronounce 'Kabul', not to mention Qatar. Geoff From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 6 13:32:12 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 08:32:12 -0500 Subject: Clements & Popik in N.Y. Times In-Reply-To: <7B67B00F.60654D84.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Tomorrow's William Safire "On Language" column in the New York Times Magazine treats the term "Charley Horse." Sam Clements and Barry Popik are mentioned, Sam for finding an Aug. 29, 1886 usage in the Atlanta Constitution and Barry for finding a usage in Sporting Life a month later. Congratulations to Sam and Barry. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Dec 6 14:21:13 2003 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 09:21:13 -0500 Subject: the kaBOOL rule In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031205173559.02642228@mail.wayne.edu> Message-ID: I think there are two things at work in the Kabul pronunciation. One is the Frenchification (stress placement, Frank's 'kaBOOL' rule) and the other appears to be the generally held belief that only English has a schwa (or such reduction as would lead to syllabic /l/, etc...). They are working arm-in-arm here of course. If I was as clever as Frank, I would come up with a dandy name for a no-schwa rule. dInIs PS: I have no doubt that the no-schwa rule is based in hours and hours spent in some foreign languages classes learning those languages without a schwa or at least hearing them or words from them spoke just so. I hvae observed Spanish classes whin which an enormous amount of time (better spent learning some more words in my opinion) has been spent drilling just the lexical item 'casa' so that the second vowel is produced with less schwa-like realization. >At 01:26 PM 12/5/2003, you wrote: >>Yeah, imagine how irate us Hunkeys get when Kodaly and even Bartok >>get syllable-final stress under this rule. > >Many years ago Frank Anshen (are you on this list, Frank?) referred to this >tendency as the 'Kabool Rule' (this was long before we learned the >'correct' way to pronounce 'Kabul', not to mention Qatar. > >Geoff From mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Sat Dec 6 15:58:18 2003 From: mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 10:58:18 -0500 Subject: chocolate In-Reply-To: <200312060503.hB653pk8014551@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: From: David Bowie Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. >>> Ah ha! I JUST ended a letter to a friend with what I remembered of these Laws, with the apology "(attribution mislaid)". Whence come they? -- Mark A. Mandel From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM Sat Dec 6 16:44:08 2003 From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 00:44:08 +0800 Subject: Clements & Popik in N.Y. Times In-Reply-To: <200312061332.hB6DWEIe016413@zero.taolodge.com> Message-ID: On Dec 6, 2003 at 08:32 -0500 Fred Shapiro transmitted the following... FS => Congratulations to Sam and Barry. Indeed, congrats Sam and Barry. You guys work hard. True. I'm among those who appreciate it. And thanks, Fred, for letting us know. Russ McClay Taipei From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 6 16:45:24 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 11:45:24 -0500 Subject: "Woobie" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A thread on another listserv has pointed out a word that is probably unrecorded in dictionaries: "woobie," meaning a favorite toy of a human being or animal. The earliest evidence I have found is that it is used in the 1983 film Mr. Mom. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 6 16:54:02 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 11:54:02 -0500 Subject: More on "Woobie" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I should add that there are more than 7000 hits on Google for "woobie." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From douglas at NB.NET Sat Dec 6 23:28:25 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:28:25 -0500 Subject: Shillaber (1883) Message-ID: This is the synonym -- and likely the ancestral form -- of "shill" ("tout"/"booster"/"swindler's accomplice"). From Ancestry.com: about 30 years earlier than in my poor-man's OED: with no obvious interval change in sense: "Indiana Weekly Messenger" [Indiana PA], 14 March 1883: p. 1, col. 5: "Mock Auctions" (attributed to the "Chicago Times"): <> There are about sixteen instances of "shillaber" in this article. The shillaber here is the (secret) accomplice of an auctioneer/swindler pushing bogus gold/silver watches. The shillaber pretends to be another innocent; he admires and bids on and "buys" the misrepresented merchandise in order to cheat the "guys" (i.e., the suckers or victims). Usually no derivation is proposed for "shillaber". I have not found this word spelled otherwise (except for one probable typo. with "shallaber"); in particular, it apparently was NOT sometimes "shillibeer" to suggest a connection with the famous London omnibus entrepreneur. The early date is interesting. In 1883 the Boston humorist Benjamin P. Shillaber was still alive and well-known (although retired). [He apparently corresponded with P. T. Barnum in 1868, BTW.] OTOH, Lydia Shillaber's cookbook apparently had not yet appeared. Likely "shillaber" is derived from this surname, but perhaps from some forgotten Shillaber (maybe a swindler?). This word came up on Dave Wilton's BBS recently. -- Doug Wilson From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Dec 7 01:35:29 2003 From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 17:35:29 -0800 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <200312030324.hB33OYKL007632@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Too bad if it IS taking off! My 5th grade teacher, Miss Smith, for whom I am now eternally grateful, explained that the correct answer to "Where are you at?" or "Where are you going to?" was "between the a and the t, or the t and the o," which ever applied. It was a great phrase to use among ourselves, but I have grown increasingly careful about using it now . . . when even distinguished folk make the errors. Miss Smith had two goals in life -- to make her Texas students sound less like they came from Texas (no grammatical errors like those above, no pitcher frames, no liberries where we went to for the books, and never Febuerry or Massatusetts.) Don't know where she was from, but she was at least adamant about these. Her second goal was to produce a generation or two of writers, and here I think that she succeeded! Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Sun Dec 7 05:54:47 2003 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 21:54:47 -0800 Subject: Clements & Popik in N.Y. Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Congratulations Sam and Barry ! Even more reason to read the NY Times tomorrow cheers ! Vida. vidamorkunas at telus.net -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Fred Shapiro Sent: December 6, 2003 5:32 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Clements & Popik in N.Y. Times Tomorrow's William Safire "On Language" column in the New York Times Magazine treats the term "Charley Horse." Sam Clements and Barry Popik are mentioned, Sam for finding an Aug. 29, 1886 usage in the Atlanta Constitution and Barry for finding a usage in Sporting Life a month later. Congratulations to Sam and Barry. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 7 07:57:02 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 02:57:02 EST Subject: Badwill (and Goodwill); Bash-Wagon Message-ID: BADWILL (AND GOODWILL) A NEW YORK POST columnist wrote about "Hillary's Bad Will Tour." The response is in Sunday's letters (www.nypost.com). "Goodwill" is one of OED's oldest words. OED does not have "badwill." GOODWILL--2,130,000 Google hits GOOD WILL--1,460,000 Google hits (many for the movie GOOD WILL HUNTING) BADWILL--3,820 Google hits BAD WILL--58,900 Google hits GOODWILL--210,000 Google Groups hits GOOD WILL--352,000 Google Groups hits (again, there are movie hits) BADWILL--1,250 Google Groups hits BAD WILL--40, 500 Google Groups hits One Google hit reads "Bad will vs. Goodwill." And just checking... PEACE ON EARTH--288,000 Google hits WAR ON EARTH--13,600 Google hits ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BASH-WAGON A story in the Sunday NEW YORK POST sports section mentions the football NY Giants "bash-wagon." This is not a particularly clever play on "bandwagon" (something to jump on during good times), but there are some hits. BASHWAGON--46 Google hits BASHWAGON--107 Google Groups hits BASH WAGON--70 Google hits BASH WAGON--90 Google Groups hits From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 7 11:02:59 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 06:02:59 EST Subject: Gkebis, Chowkee, and more from Harry Franck (1910++) Message-ID: The New York Public Library was closed on Saturday because of the snow. I read almost all of the Harry Franck travel books in the NYU Bobst Library. Two books--ZONE POLICEMAN 88 and VAGABONDING DOWN THE ANDES--were missing. Franck started with A VAGABOND JOURNEY AROUND THE WORLD (1910), but his later books were better. His WEST INDIES (1920) book (posted here) was one of his best. Franck seems to be a western hemisphere guy. Did he even visit Africa? Overall--not as helpful as I'd hoped. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- A VAGABOND JOURNEY AROUND THE WORLD by Harry A. Franck New York: The Century Co. 1910 Pg. 121: A wonderful invention is this _gkebis_ or Arab bread. (Probably "Khoubz Araby." Neither is in OED--ed.) Pg. 417: "Sure, we pay for our chow. Where's the chowkee? Tell him to get busy." ("Chowkee" is used to mean someone who prepares chow. I've been looking, unsuccessfully, for "Chowhound"--ed.) Pg. 485: Life on the beach of Yokohama might have grown monotonous in the days that followed but for the necessity of an incessant scramble for rice and fishes. Out beyond the park were a score of native shops where a Gargantuan feast of rice and stewed _niku_--meat of uncertain antecedents--sold for a song. There were times, of course, when we had not even a song between us; but in the Chinese quarters neared the harbor, queued shopkeepers offered an armful of Oriental fruits and the thin strips of roasted pork popularly known as "rat-tails" for half a vocal effort. Or, failing this, there were the vendors (Pg. 486--ed.) of _soba_, who appeared with their push-carts as dusk fell, demanding only two sen for a bowl of this Japanese macaroni swimming in greasy water, and the use of a badly-worn pair of chopsticks. (OED has 1896, then 1928 for "soba"--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- TRAMPING THROUGH MEXICO, GUATEMALA AND HONDURAS by Harry A. Franck New York: D. Appleton-Century Company 1916 Pg. 14: A cheerful but slatternly Indian woman set before me a thin soup containing a piece of squash and a square of boileed beef, and eight hot corn tortillas of the size and shape of our pancakes, or _gkebis_. the Arab bread, which it outdid in toughness and total absence of taste. Pg. 25: ...onions, flat slabs orf brown, muddy-looking soap, rice, every species of _frijole_, or bean, shelled corn for tortillas, tomatoes--_tomate coloradito_, though many were tiny and green as if also prematurely gathered--peppers red and green, green-corn with most of the kernels blue, lettuce, radishes, cucumbers, carrots, cabbages, melons of every size except large,... Pg. 41: The woman set before me a bowl of "sopita," with tortillas, white cheese, and boiled whole peppers. Pg. 157: There was _carne de carnero_, tortillas and water, all for five cents. Pg. 221: To the _enchiladas_, large tortillas red with pepper-sauce and generously filled with onions, and the smaller tortillas covered with scraps of meat and boiled egg which we bought of the old women and boys that flocked about the train, he added a liter of pulque. Pg. 350: ...a stale slab of _pan dulce_, a cross between poor bread and (Pg. 351--ed.) worse cake. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- WORKING NORTH FROM PATAGONIA by Harry A. Franck New York: The Century Company 1922 One of his best books. It covers South America--a favorite topic. Pg. 26: "B. A." still retains, however, a few of those features which visiting Americans below the Rio Grande are wont in their exasperation to dub "Spig." Pg. 45: Here the waiters, like the _dormitorio_ porters, are white, with king's-bed-chamber manners; and the six course meals are moderate in price and usually excellent--except the dessert, the ubiquitous, unfailing, never-varying _dulce de membrillo_, a stone-hard quince jelly which brings to a sad end virtually every public repast in the Argentine. (OED has 1920 for "membrillo"--ed.) Pg. 59: Tucuman retains none of the primitive methods by which cane is turned into brown lumps of _panela_ or _chancaca_ on the little plantations scattered through the Andes. Pg. 84 (Chile): Street after street is crowded with dingy little hole-in-the-wall merchants; street stands abound in which are sold the favorite dishes of the _gente de medio pelo_, the ragged masses,--_mote molido_ (boiled and mashed ripe corn); _mote con huesillos_ (the same with scraps of bones and meat thrown in), and the thick, greasy soup known as _cazuela_. Pg. 274: ...both in the hope that those who might already have heard one number would be attracted by the other two and because Brazilians will not stand for _sopa requentada_ (reheated soup), as they call a repetition of program. Pg. 293: This _carne verde_ ("green" meat), having just been killed and so called to distinguish it from _xarque_ or _carne secca_, the salted or dun-dried variety familiar in the rural districts, is cooked in several different ways, all of which leave it hopeless to live on. Pg. 352: Here (Amazon--ed.) one may have a _cocoa molle gelado_, in other words, iced milk of green coconut, than which there is no better way of quenching tropical thirst. (...) He will not work again until he must have more _cachaza_ and _farinha_. Pg. 356: I wandered up the dingy back stairs to the _gallhinheiro_ (chicken roost), as (Pg. 357--ed.) "nigger heaven" is called in Bazil, and found that the negro at the door was acepting money in lieu of tickets. Pg. 390: The settlers at the "Reef" were almost entirely Portuguese merchants, whom the aristocrats of the proud residential town of Olinda called "mascates"--peddlers or hawkers. Pg. 403: If it is simply cooked, fermented, and dried, the result is _farinha secca_, white, bran-like mandioca flour; a more elaborate process, including grating under water, gives the yellow _farinha d'agoa_, which seems to be the favorite. A coarser form of the same product is called _farofa_, and during the cooking there are precipitated the gum-like grains we call tapioca. _Taquira_, a species of alcohol, is also produced from mandioca. _Farinha_ and _farofa_ are to the Brazilians what potatoes are to the Irish. (OED has two "farofa" hits, but no entry. There are 2,620 Google hits and 780 Google Groups hits for "farofa"--ed.) Pg. 585: ...some are the private and individual diggings of "pork-knockers." Lone prospectors, aminly West Indian negroes who by law may wash for gold even on the concessions of others are so called because, often setting out with insufficient supplies, they soon come knocking at doors and asking for something to eat--little pork of anything." Even the verb, to "go pork-knocking," has become an accepted one in the popular language of Dutch and British Guiana. Pg. 631: Eggs were three or for five cents; a large corn biscuit, or _pan de arepa_, was one cent; "wheat bread" as a tiny, dry ring of baked flour of the size and shape of a bracelet was called, cost something more than that; native cheese, _papelon_, even milk, though probably from goats and certainly boi led, could be had by persons of wealth. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- THE FRINGE OF THE MOSLEM WORLD By Harry A. Franck New York: The Century Co. 1928 Pg. 150: Here a den where men are baking ghebis, the huge pancake-like bread of Syria that lies stacked up in sheets everywhere in the food markets. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Dec 7 13:35:39 2003 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 08:35:39 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Does it say "She Made Us Ashamed of Who We Were" on Ms. Smith's headstone? dInIs >Too bad if it IS taking off! My 5th grade teacher, Miss Smith, for whom I >am now eternally grateful, explained that the correct answer to "Where are >you at?" or "Where are you going to?" was "between the a and the t, or the >t and the o," which ever applied. It was a great phrase to use among >ourselves, but I have grown increasingly careful about using it now . . . >when even distinguished folk make the errors. > >Miss Smith had two goals in life -- to make her Texas students sound less >like they came from Texas (no grammatical errors like those above, no >pitcher frames, no liberries where we went to for the books, and never >Febuerry or Massatusetts.) Don't know where she was from, but she was at >least adamant about these. Her second goal was to produce a generation or >two of writers, and here I think that she succeeded! > >Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 7 16:20:56 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 11:20:56 -0500 Subject: Underwater Basket Weaving(1958) Message-ID: .I'm sure this is a US phrase referring to a college course that is rediculously easy, one that NO ONE could possibly flunk, not even the jocks. I couldn't find a cite for it anywhere(OED, our archives, Christine Ammer, Ayto, alt.useage.english, etc.) The earliest ancesty.com cite was from the Appleton Post Crescent, May 14, 1958: p. ?, col. 6-7. From the 'Potomac Fever' column written by Fletcher Knebel--- <> Question: was there actually such a course at a university at that time? Or was this just a useage of a metaphor that was known and used earlier? I'm certain that Fred or Barry or others who have access to NYTimes, Wash. Post, L.A. Times will find an earlier cite. Sam Clements From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sun Dec 7 17:13:23 2003 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:13:23 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What on earth does this "great phrase" mean? And where are the "errors"? I know almost no one who says "FebRuary either. Since good writing has almost nothing to do with how one speaks, it's too bad you feel proud of the first aspect of your linguistic life and ashamed of the second. I too had a teacher who taught us how to analyze Latin-based words (a useful tool I wish my grad students had), do library research and write decent papers (another skill often lacking), and appreciate good literature. But when she tore down a sign at a bake sale during a basketball game because it said "Boughten Cookies," she shamed us and our origins. It was years later, of course, that I learned 'boughten' is a common Northern participial adjective and felt vindicated. Another member of the erring "distinguished folk": Beverly Olson Flanigan Associate Professor of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 At 05:35 PM 12/6/2003 -0800, you wrote: >Too bad if it IS taking off! My 5th grade teacher, Miss Smith, for whom I >am now eternally grateful, explained that the correct answer to "Where are >you at?" or "Where are you going to?" was "between the a and the t, or the >t and the o," which ever applied. It was a great phrase to use among >ourselves, but I have grown increasingly careful about using it now . . . >when even distinguished folk make the errors. > >Miss Smith had two goals in life -- to make her Texas students sound less >like they came from Texas (no grammatical errors like those above, no >pitcher frames, no liberries where we went to for the books, and never >Febuerry or Massatusetts.) Don't know where she was from, but she was at >least adamant about these. Her second goal was to produce a generation or >two of writers, and here I think that she succeeded! > >Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg From write at SCN.ORG Sun Dec 7 17:35:25 2003 From: write at SCN.ORG (Jan Kammert) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 09:35:25 -0800 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031207115657.00ad2f88@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: > I too had a teacher who taught us how to analyze Latin-based words (a > useful tool I wish my grad students had), do library research and write > decent papers (another skill often lacking), and appreciate good > literature. But when she tore down a sign at a bake sale during a > basketball game because it said "Boughten Cookies," she shamed us and our > origins. It was years later, of course, that I learned 'boughten' is a > common Northern participial adjective and felt vindicated. > I teach 8th grade. This thread makes me feel as if I should never correct my students writing. No doubt, I will think something is wrong that really isn't, or is so common that I should just ignore it. Where is there help for teachers who were never trained about language themselves? Jan From douglas at NB.NET Sun Dec 7 17:39:57 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:39:57 -0500 Subject: Underwater Basket Weaving(1958) In-Reply-To: <001301c3bcde$197d27a0$7e22a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: >.I'm sure this is a US phrase referring to a college course that is >rediculously easy, one that NO ONE could possibly flunk, not even the jocks. I think the essential quality of the course typified by "basket weaving" is lack of intellectual demand: if you can't learn read or to do arithmetic, perhaps you can still learn to weave baskets (or to shoot them). Weaving is an activity which can be performed by small children, mentally deficient persons, illiterate barbarians, etc. (of course it is performed by great savants also, and of course there are subtleties and complexities to it in reality). > <the times by eliminating its popular course in underwater basket weaving.>> > >Question: was there actually such a course at a university at that time? >Or was this just a useage of a metaphor that was known and used earlier? I've heard "basket weaving" (unmodified) as an "undemanding course archetype" since the 1960's myself. There are -- I assume -- many real college courses in basket weaving (as an art or craft). Augmented expressions such as "underwater basket-weaving", "Serbo-Croatian basket-weaving", etc. make the humor transparent, with the longer names also denoting "specialized" forms of basket-weaving with the implication that the 'jock' or other (academically) incompetent (or lazy) student can make a whole academic career out of such 'specializations'. I believe there is also the understanding that an expertise in such an activity would be worthless in the employment market after graduation. There are doubtless real courses along the line of "Navajo basket weaving". I seriously doubt that there is a real field of underwater weaving, however. -- Doug Wilson From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Sun Dec 7 17:42:31 2003 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti Kurtz) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 11:42:31 -0600 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <200312071235.68e3fd364d73ac@rly-nc05.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: write at SCN.ORG wrote: >I teach 8th grade. This thread makes me feel as if I should never correct >my students writing. > Okay, I'm not a linguist per se, but an English prof, but my feelings are that a9 it's okay to show students what's expected in "Standard written English" as long as we don't disparage their own dialects in the process. Students can learn to style shift very readily-- the problem, I think, that Dennis and the others are focusing on is the view that one dialect (the mythical standard) is somehow "better" than the others. Plus speech and writing are very different-- we speak (as a rule) much more informally than we write. And a lot of writing has to do with audience. What are the students writing to who? (or should that be whom?) Anyhow, I think as a teacher, it's important to teach the conventions of written standard English, but to do so in a way that doesn't make students ashamed of the way they talk. Students should also realize that there may be a time or place in writing for dialect and casual usage-- such as e mails, letters to friends, fiction, etc. The key I think is in not labeling variants as "bad English" but as variants which may not be accepted by the academic community. Okay, that's my 2 cents. Patti Kurtz English Department Minot State University Minot, ND > No doubt, I will think something is wrong that >really isn't, or is so common that I should just ignore it. Where is >there help for teachers who were never trained about language themselves? >Jan > > -- If you write nothing, nothing is what you end up with! Joseph Bruchac From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sun Dec 7 17:51:18 2003 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 11:51:18 -0600 Subject: Underwater Basket Weaving(1958) In-Reply-To: <200312071740.hB7HeRG23602@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > There are doubtless real courses along the line of "Navajo basket > weaving". I seriously doubt that there is a real field of underwater > weaving, however. On a related note, the Boy Scouts offer (or offered, in the 1970s) a merit badge in basket weaving. It was, needless to say, a very easy one; I believe my entire troop picked it up in the course of a single week at camp. Jim Parish From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Dec 7 18:00:37 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 13:00:37 -0500 Subject: Underwater Basket Weaving(1958) In-Reply-To: <3FD31436.29216.1DC0E3D@localhost> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Jim Parish > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 12:51 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Underwater Basket Weaving(1958) > > > Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > There are doubtless real courses along the line of "Navajo basket > > weaving". I seriously doubt that there is a real field of underwater > > weaving, however. > > On a related note, the Boy Scouts offer (or offered, in the 1970s) a > merit badge in basket weaving. It was, needless to say, a very easy > one; I believe my entire troop picked it up in the course of a single week > at camp. Indeed, I believe the university sense (at least in every instance I've heard it), carries the connotation of a camp activity, likening matriculating with attending summer camp. From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sun Dec 7 18:09:10 2003 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 13:09:10 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: But you're confusing writing with speaking again. I agree that a certain "standard" should be taught in writing, if only to give kids an equal chance in higher education and the job market. This means teaching standard past and participial forms of verbs, subject-verb agreement, complete but not run-on sentence construction, and, most importantly, coherent and cohesive text building. (It doesn't include harping on 'who' vs. 'whom', not ending a sentence with a preposition, and avoiding "where at" or "boughten.") Punctuation might also be nice in writing, but since one doesn't hear it (except in pausing) in speech, marking of possessives, as in "my students' writing," might also go the way of the dodo bird (since it is anyway). But if you teach writing style as a separate and useful "code" in a nice and non-demeaning way, some of its "rules" might start to permeate your students' speech as well. Walt Wolfram distinguishes between Standard Formal Written and Standard Colloquial Written English (I think I have his terms right, away from my source). The first is rarely used; the second is a nice bridge to Colloquial Spoken English (note that I didn't say Nonstandard Spoken English, which is a demeaning label). Students can, and will, learn how to shift between these styles, if you give them half a chance! You might want to get a copy of Wolfram and Schilling-Estes, _American English: ..._ (again, I don't have the book here, but ask any bookstore to look it up). The early chapters are especially good on prescriptive rules vs. ordinary colloquial usage. Beverly At 09:35 AM 12/7/2003 -0800, you wrote: > > I too had a teacher who taught us how to analyze Latin-based words (a > > useful tool I wish my grad students had), do library research and write > > decent papers (another skill often lacking), and appreciate good > > literature. But when she tore down a sign at a bake sale during a > > basketball game because it said "Boughten Cookies," she shamed us and our > > origins. It was years later, of course, that I learned 'boughten' is a > > common Northern participial adjective and felt vindicated. > > >I teach 8th grade. This thread makes me feel as if I should never correct >my students writing. No doubt, I will think something is wrong that >really isn't, or is so common that I should just ignore it. Where is >there help for teachers who were never trained about language themselves? >Jan From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM Sun Dec 7 18:19:09 2003 From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 02:19:09 +0800 Subject: Underwater Basket Weaving(1958) In-Reply-To: <200312071620.hB7GKGBb003921@zero.taolodge.com> Message-ID: FWIW: Subject: Re: "Underwater basket weaving Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:42:55 -0400 (EDT) From: MSWF at aol.com To: davidc at iei.net Hi, I first heard the term underwater basket weaving when I was in college (58-62-Indiana State) as a reference to easy classes that football players and other athletes would take just to get credits and remain eligible to play. That may not be the origin but it is my first memory of the term. Since starting to make baskets, I have thought it ironic that people who coined the term did not understand the complexity of some weaving and the history of the craft. Hope this helps, Mary Fulton, Portland, OR. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.angelfire.com/art/weaverswords/WeaversWordsV1I27.txt SC => .I'm sure this is a US phrase referring to a college course that is SC => rediculously easy, one that NO ONE could possibly flunk, not even the jocks. From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sun Dec 7 18:12:57 2003 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 13:12:57 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <3FD36687.3000708@netscape.net> Message-ID: I couldn't (and didn't) say it better myself, Patti! Ah, a new breed of English teachers, and coming out of my beloved Northland! At 11:42 AM 12/7/2003 -0600, you wrote: >write at SCN.ORG wrote: > >>I teach 8th grade. This thread makes me feel as if I should never correct >>my students writing. >Okay, I'm not a linguist per se, but an English prof, but my feelings >are that a9 it's okay to show students what's expected in "Standard >written English" as long as we don't disparage their own dialects in the >process. Students can learn to style shift very readily-- the problem, >I think, that Dennis and the others are focusing on is the view that one >dialect (the mythical standard) is somehow "better" than the others. >Plus speech and writing are very different-- we speak (as a rule) much >more informally than we write. And a lot of writing has to do with >audience. What are the students writing to who? (or should that be >whom?) Anyhow, I think as a teacher, it's important to teach the >conventions of written standard English, but to do so in a way that >doesn't make students ashamed of the way they talk. Students should >also realize that there may be a time or place in writing for dialect >and casual usage-- such as e mails, letters to friends, fiction, etc. >The key I think is in not labeling variants as "bad English" but as >variants which may not be accepted by the academic community. > >Okay, that's my 2 cents. > >Patti Kurtz >English Department >Minot State University >Minot, ND > >>No doubt, I will think something is wrong that >>really isn't, or is so common that I should just ignore it. Where is >>there help for teachers who were never trained about language themselves? >>Jan >> > >-- > >If you write nothing, nothing is what you end up with! > > > >Joseph Bruchac From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Dec 7 18:36:00 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 13:36:00 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20"at"=20at=20the=20e?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?nd=20of=20a=20where=20phrase?= Message-ID: In a message dated 12/6/03 8:35:48 PM, eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: How lucky y'all were to have Miss Smith to tell you what was right and what was wrong! But how did SHE know? > Miss Smith, for whom I > am now eternally grateful, explained that the correct answer to "Where are > you at?" or "Where are you going to?" was "between the a and the t, or the > t and the o," which ever applied.  It was a great phrase to use among > ourselves, but I have grown increasingly careful about using it now . . . > when even distinguished folk make the errors. > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 7 19:12:57 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:12:57 -0500 Subject: Clements & Popik in N.Y. Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:54 PM -0800 12/6/03, vida morkunas wrote: >Congratulations Sam and Barry ! > >Even more reason to read the NY Times tomorrow > >cheers ! > >Vida. >vidamorkunas at telus.net > When you do, note Safire's reference (the column appears on p. 30) to the latter as "The growling etymologist Barry Popik", with no further explanation. Assuming this isn't a very covert reference to some work of Barry on "growler", it strikes me as a somewhat private allusion to Barry's style, presumably motivated by the fact that Safire himself has not infrequently served as the growlee. Sam, on the other hand, is identified neutrally as "the philologist Sam Clements", sans modification. larry From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 7 19:29:49 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:29:49 -0500 Subject: Clements & Popik in N.Y. Times Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 2:12 PM Subject: Re: Clements & Popik in N.Y. Times Sam, on the other hand, is identified neutrally as "the philologist Sam Clements", sans modification. larry Hey! When Safire's lovely assistant, Kathleen Miller, wrote and asked me for a description of myself, I gave her enough info to fill up the whole column. That they decided to call me some whitebread name, er... uh..., actually, it fits. At least Barry is an 'etymologist.' (insert Rodney Dangerfield complaint here) From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Sun Dec 7 20:13:28 2003 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti Kurtz) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:13:28 -0600 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <200312071330.7643fd371c5379@rly-nc06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: flanigan at OHIO.EDU wrote: > >I couldn't (and didn't) say it better myself, Patti! Ah, a new breed of >English teachers, and coming out of my beloved Northland! > Thanks, Beverly. :-) (so where are you from? I'm a transplant myself, but love it here!) Oh, and the info on the Wolfram/Schilling-Estes book: Blackwell publishers, 1998, for anyone interested. It is a very good text on variations in American English. Patti Kurtz > >At 11:42 AM 12/7/2003 -0600, you wrote: > > >>write at SCN.ORG wrote: >> >> >> >>>I teach 8th grade. This thread makes me feel as if I should never correct >>>my students writing. >>> >>> >>Okay, I'm not a linguist per se, but an English prof, but my feelings >>are that a9 it's okay to show students what's expected in "Standard >>written English" as long as we don't disparage their own dialects in the >>process. Students can learn to style shift very readily-- the problem, >>I think, that Dennis and the others are focusing on is the view that one >>dialect (the mythical standard) is somehow "better" than the others. >>Plus speech and writing are very different-- we speak (as a rule) much >>more informally than we write. And a lot of writing has to do with >>audience. What are the students writing to who? (or should that be >>whom?) Anyhow, I think as a teacher, it's important to teach the >>conventions of written standard English, but to do so in a way that >>doesn't make students ashamed of the way they talk. Students should >>also realize that there may be a time or place in writing for dialect >>and casual usage-- such as e mails, letters to friends, fiction, etc. >>The key I think is in not labeling variants as "bad English" but as >>variants which may not be accepted by the academic community. >> >>Okay, that's my 2 cents. >> >>Patti Kurtz >>English Department >>Minot State University >>Minot, ND >> >> >> >>>No doubt, I will think something is wrong that >>>really isn't, or is so common that I should just ignore it. Where is >>>there help for teachers who were never trained about language themselves? >>>Jan >>> >>> >>> >>-- >> >>If you write nothing, nothing is what you end up with! >> >> >> >>Joseph Bruchac >> >> -- If you write nothing, nothing is what you end up with! Joseph Bruchac From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 7 20:17:57 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 15:17:57 -0500 Subject: The real Mackay(1871) Message-ID: This may or not be an antedating, but I think it's an important addition to the origins of the term. >From ancestry.com, I found a poem in the Waukesha(WI) Plaindealer, February 7, 1871: page 1(I think), col. 3. There are five stanzas. Rather than print the entire poem, suffice it to say that the final line in each stanza was "For he's no the real Sandy Mackay." The title of the poem was "THE REAL SANDY MACKAY*" At the conclusion of the poem, the starred term was explained thusly: <> This would appear to predate the RHDAS cite for the meaning of "the genuine article; the real thing." They have RL Stevenson's 1883 cite as first. There is no indication of the author. Jesse: if you need the entire poem, I'll be glad to mail you a hard copy by snailmail. I haven't figured out how to cut and paste from ancestry. I know about the 1856 and 1880 cites, but nothing so specific as this one. Sam Clements From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 7 20:23:02 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 15:23:02 EST Subject: Underwater Basket Weaving(1958) Message-ID: Maybe it first applied to Florida. 5 July 1969, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 51, col. 3: I picked the University of Florida, where I majored in underwater basket weaving and golf. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 7 20:25:48 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 15:25:48 -0500 Subject: Clements & Popik in N.Y. Times In-Reply-To: <001d01c3bcf8$7bd3df60$7e22a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Sam Clements wrote: > Hey! When Safire's lovely assistant, Kathleen Miller, wrote and asked me > for a description of myself, I gave her enough info to fill up the whole > column. That they decided to call me some whitebread name, er... uh..., > actually, it fits. > > At least Barry is an 'etymologist.' Hell, I've been called a "phrasedick" and an "etymological hawkshaw" in the "On Language" column. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sun Dec 7 21:29:05 2003 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:29:05 -0000 Subject: The real Mackay(1871) In-Reply-To: <002301c3bcff$35afc560$7e22a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: Sam Clements wrote: > At the conclusion of the poem, the starred term was explained thusly: > > < "it's not the real thing.">> > > This would appear to predate the RHDAS cite for the meaning of "the > genuine article; the real thing." They have RL Stevenson's 1883 cite > as first. A useful datum concerning transmission of the saying to the USA. The evidence suggests that the expression was indeed Scots. The earliest example is from 1856, recorded in the Scottish National Dictionary: 'A drappie [drop] o' the real MacKay'. The same work says that in 1870 the saying was adopted by Messrs G Mackay and Co, whisky distillers of Edinburgh as their advertising slogan. It's presumably the same expression that Stevenson and other writers of the period used (in that spelling), which later changed to "the real McCoy" in the USA and was later re-introduced into the UK in that spelling. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Dec 7 22:00:13 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 17:00:13 -0500 Subject: The real Mackay(1871) In-Reply-To: <3FD39BA1.5425.2D8606A@localhost> Message-ID: McKay ---> McCoy Was the pronunciation, perhaps the same? I note that Scots in eastern Canada are portrayed in literature as saying "by" for "boy," and, of course McKay ( & its variants) is pronounced "Mc KYE" in Scotland and the north of England. A. Murie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 7 22:13:03 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 17:13:03 EST Subject: Railroad Pie (1900) and Flannel Sausage (1890) Message-ID: Fred Shapiro ("the etymological hawkshaw phrasedick Eli") has revised a list of electronic databases. He left off GALILEO, from the State of Georgia's Digital Library. Yes, it still sucks and it hasn't been improved in the past year. "Georgia Books" turned up interesting cites for "railroad pie" and "flannel sausage." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- RAILROAD PIE I'd posted on "railroad cake," but not "railroad pie." There are 49 Google hits. There is a Making of America-Cornell hit, but that just indicates a pie eaten on the railroad. Anything special about this? (GOOGLE GROUPS) From: Donna Tomenga (dtomenga at ix.netcom.com) Subject: Re: 40's foods Newsgroups: rec.food.historic Date: 1996/03/16 I never see this one that my grandma made. It's called "Railroad Pie"(for whatever reason). Being farmers of not wealthy circumstances, shewould run low at the end of the month and would still feed all of thehired hands, plus the big family. Dinner always "had" to have adessert, so she made this out of leftover items. It's not fordiabetics, but it's delicious...even if there's any left over the nextday. Pie Crust:1-3/4 C white flourAbout 1/2 C lard (or use oil today - 1996)5 T cold waterPinch of salt Mix together to form pie crust, cutting in lard (or stirring in oil).Roll out on floured board for single pie crust (this recipe makes two).Bake in 400-degree oven for a few minutes until browned and crisp Filling:Sprinkle brown sugar all over bottom of baked pie crust.Put dots of oleo all over brown sugar.Sprinkle cinnamon all over that (to suit your taste).Shake water off your fingers all over that (This probably equals about8 teaspoons of water, but you can't drop the teaspoons of water ontothe stuff or you'll get soggy spots. You must drip/shake it off yourfingers). Put back into oven and bake for about 20 minutes. It will bevery runny (syrupy) and difficult to equal out the portions, but the taste is sooooo good. If you let it set, it will crystallize and beeasier to cut into portions. Note: This is NOT Shoo-Fly pie. It's Railroad Pie, or Brown Sugar Pie, and it's from Casey, Illinois, made from the 20's through 40's (and, of course, I still make it from time to time today). - Donna (GALILEO) http://www.galileo.usg.edu/cgi-bin/homepage.cgi Northern Georgia sketches / by Will N. Harden author: Harben, Will N. (Will Nathaniel), 1858-1919 (Harben?--ed.) extent: 305 p. ; 18 cm. publication: Chicago: A. C. McClurg, 1900 note: Originally appeared in the Century magazine, Lippincott's magazine, and other periodicals Pg. 55: ... busy man. He had traveled three hundred miles, slept [page 55] on the hard seat of a jolting train, eaten railroad pies and peanuts, and was covered with the grime of a dusty journey, all to w... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FLANNEL SAUSAGE I'd posted on "flannel cake" (see also DARE), but not "flannel sausage." The three Google hits are from this same source. (GALILEO) http://www.galileo.usg.edu/cgi-bin/homepage.cgi The new South / by Henry W. Grady ; with a character sketch of Henry W. Grady by Oliver Dyer author: Grady, Henry Woodfin, 1850-1889; Dyer, Oliver, 1824-1907 extent: v, 273 p. ; 18 cm. publication: New York: Robert Bonner's Sons, 1890 note: UGA SOLINET microfilm. Pg. 15: ... and squeezes pure olive oil out of his cotton seed, against any down-easter that ever swapped wooden nutmegs for flannel sausage in the valleys of Vermont. Above all, we know that we have achieved in... From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 7 22:50:40 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 17:50:40 -0500 Subject: The real Mackay(1871) Message-ID: Michael, Lighter seems to suggest that the 'real McKay' of the 1856 cite and the 1880 ''rale Mackay' are both referring to the whiskey. While any reasonable linguist would assume that the Scots were talking about "the real thing" in a general sense, it isn't conclusive. That's why he added to indicate usuages that clearly meant 'the real thing' in a metaphorical sense. The first of those that he cites is Stevenson in 1883 I meant only that my find would antedate his 'b.' sense of the phrase. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Quinion" To: "Sam Clements" ; Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [ADS-L] The real Mackay(1871) > Sam Clements wrote: > > > At the conclusion of the poem, the starred term was explained thusly: > > > > < > "it's not the real thing.">> > > > > This would appear to predate the RHDAS cite for the meaning of "the > > genuine article; the real thing." They have RL Stevenson's 1883 cite > > as first. > > A useful datum concerning transmission of the saying to the USA. The > evidence suggests that the expression was indeed Scots. The earliest > example is from 1856, recorded in the Scottish National Dictionary: > 'A drappie [drop] o' the real MacKay'. The same work says that in > 1870 the saying was adopted by Messrs G Mackay and Co, whisky > distillers of Edinburgh as their advertising slogan. It's presumably > the same expression that Stevenson and other writers of the period > used (in that spelling), which later changed to "the real McCoy" in > the USA and was later re-introduced into the UK in that spelling. > > -- > Michael Quinion > Editor, World Wide Words > E-mail: > Web: > > From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Dec 7 22:54:54 2003 From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:54:54 -0800 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <200312071337.hB7DbcDv024567@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Dennis, I don't know. The fact that I had her and learned how to speak has always stood me in good stead, and I'm grateful. I should think she'd have had a better epitaph! Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: "at" at the end of a where phrase > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >Does it say "She Made Us Ashamed of Who We Were" on Ms. Smith's headstone? > > dInIs > > > > >Too bad if it IS taking off! My 5th grade teacher, Miss Smith, for whom I > >am now eternally grateful, explained that the correct answer to "Where are > >you at?" or "Where are you going to?" was "between the a and the t, or the > >t and the o," which ever applied. It was a great phrase to use among > >ourselves, but I have grown increasingly careful about using it now . . . > >when even distinguished folk make the errors. > > > >Miss Smith had two goals in life -- to make her Texas students sound less > >like they came from Texas (no grammatical errors like those above, no > >pitcher frames, no liberries where we went to for the books, and never > >Febuerry or Massatusetts.) Don't know where she was from, but she was at > >least adamant about these. Her second goal was to produce a generation or > >two of writers, and here I think that she succeeded! > > > >Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg > From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Dec 7 22:59:55 2003 From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:59:55 -0800 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <200312071742.hB7HglZI032255@mxu7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for your letter, Pattii. Good points all around from the others. The interesting thing is that despite all the corrections, I don't think any of the students in the class felt ashamed. So there was something in the way she said it, the way she corrected what we wrote, and the way she encouraged us to write. I don't know what it was, but I've at least carried on some of it in the classroom myself. I don't correct spoken dialect, but I certainly did correct written papers for both content and "English." And I had the blessing of the head of the history dept for doing so. Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Patti Kurtz wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Patti Kurtz > Subject: Re: "at" at the end of a where phrase > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > write at SCN.ORG wrote: > > >I teach 8th grade. This thread makes me feel as if I should never correct > >my students writing. > > > Okay, I'm not a linguist per se, but an English prof, but my feelings > are that a9 it's okay to show students what's expected in "Standard > written English" as long as we don't disparage their own dialects in the > process. Students can learn to style shift very readily-- the problem, > I think, that Dennis and the others are focusing on is the view that one > dialect (the mythical standard) is somehow "better" than the others. > Plus speech and writing are very different-- we speak (as a rule) much > more informally than we write. And a lot of writing has to do with > audience. What are the students writing to who? (or should that be > whom?) Anyhow, I think as a teacher, it's important to teach the > conventions of written standard English, but to do so in a way that > doesn't make students ashamed of the way they talk. Students should > also realize that there may be a time or place in writing for dialect > and casual usage-- such as e mails, letters to friends, fiction, etc. > The key I think is in not labeling variants as "bad English" but as > variants which may not be accepted by the academic community. > > Okay, that's my 2 cents. > > Patti Kurtz > English Department > Minot State University > Minot, ND > > > No doubt, I will think something is wrong that > >really isn't, or is so common that I should just ignore it. Where is > >there help for teachers who were never trained about language themselves? > >Jan > > > > > > -- > > If you write nothing, nothing is what you end up with! > > > > Joseph Bruchac > From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Dec 7 23:04:01 2003 From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 15:04:01 -0800 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20"at"=20at=20the=20e?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?nd=20of=20a=20where=20phrase?= In-Reply-To: <200312071836.hB7IaDbc002819@mxu5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I don't have the slightest idea, and how clever of you to have asked the question I never thought to ask? I know that she came from somewhere in the South, because she didn't sound that far different from the rest of us. Perhaps she had the same school teachers that others of that generation did -- good handwriting and spelling and grammar skills drilled into them by a teacher who probably did no more than graduate from high school somewhere! Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM > Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20"at"=20at=20the=20e? > = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?nd=20of=20a=20where=20phrase?= > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In a message dated 12/6/03 8:35:48 PM, eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: > > How lucky y'all were to have Miss Smith to tell you what was right and what=20 > was wrong! But how did SHE know? > > > Miss Smith, for whom I > > am now eternally grateful, explained that the correct answer to "Where are > > you at?" or "Where are you going to?" was "between the a and the t, or the > > t and the o," which ever applied.=A0 It was a great phrase to use among > > ourselves, but I have grown increasingly careful about using it now . . . > > when even distinguished folk make the errors. > >=20 > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 8 01:06:42 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 20:06:42 -0500 Subject: where "right" and "wrong" come from In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > How lucky y'all were to have Miss Smith to tell you what was >right and what=20 > > was wrong! But how did SHE know? > > >I don't have the slightest idea, and how clever of you to have asked the >question I never thought to ask? I know that she came from somewhere in >the South, because she didn't sound that far different from the rest of >us. Perhaps she had the same school teachers that others of that >generation did -- good handwriting and spelling and grammar skills drilled >into them by a teacher who probably did no more than graduate from high >school somewhere! > >Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg > If I may presume, I suspect Ron (and Dennis) would then ask, quasi-rhetorically, where *those* teachers obtained their notion of proper usage. Is there any non-arbitrary way to define "good grammar"? If we think of "correct" grammar as being like "correct" styles in clothing or interior decoration or arrangement of the dining table, the arbitrariness--in telling you what was right and what was wrong--becomes clear... larry From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Dec 8 01:16:26 2003 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti Kurtz) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 19:16:26 -0600 Subject: "at" at the e nd of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <200312071804.6603fd3b1e417f@rly-nc01.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU wrote: > Perhaps she had the same school teachers that others of that >generation did -- good handwriting and spelling and grammar skills drilled >into them by a teacher who probably did no more than graduate from high >school somewhere! > Julia: Thanks for the earlier comments. However, not to drag this out, but I don't remember learning ANYTHING that helped me write in my "grammar" classes (here meaning "prescriptive or school grammar, not descriptive grammar or my linguistic classes). In fact, I think I slept or doodled through most of them. The teachers who inspired me to write were the ones who let me write-- who encouraged me to write-- and didn't try to "correct" my grammar or make me do Reed Kellogg diagrams of sentences. And I've found the same is true of my students-- the ones who say they "can't" write are the ones whose papers have been shredded for grammar mistakes by some teacher back in their past. I usually spend about half a semester encouraging these students that yes, they can write before they start to believe it. If your teacher was able to do both in a way that inspired you to write, more power to her. But I'd have to say my grammar knowledge came more from reading and imitating than from any corrections any teacher did to my papers. And I'd have to admit I wasn't inspired to write by any teacher who graded primarily on grammar or handwriting. By the way, I believe the point being made in Ron's post is that "right" and "wrong" in spoken English are relative, depending of course on which dialect one speaks. Patti > > -- If you write nothing, nothing is what you end up with! Joseph Bruchac From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 8 01:33:39 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 20:33:39 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Movie" In-Reply-To: <200307212100.h6LL0hS22107@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: I have previously posted a May 1911 citation for the word "movie," earlier than anything else in the OED or HDAS if the apparently erroneous 1902 citation is dismissed. Here is a slightly earlier antedating, from Ancestry.com: 1911 _Bucks County Gazette_ 24 Mar. 1 The Saturday evening pictures are as usual "movies." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG Mon Dec 8 03:37:32 2003 From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:37:32 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase Message-ID: On 12/7/2003 01:09 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote the following: >But you're confusing writing with speaking again. I agree that a certain >"standard" should be taught in writing, if only to give kids an equal >chance in higher education and the job market. This still implicitly promotes the idea that there are certain lects that are better than others -- those used by the highly educated vs. those used by the relatively ignorant, those used by people worthy of gainful employment vs. those used by vagrants, bums and good-for-nothings, and so on. Why not just make explicit the underpinnings of all this: power. The so-called "standard" varieties of a language are those used by the powerful, and the powerful can and will discriminate against you if you don't adapt to their way of doing things -- in language use, dress, mores and any other significant aspect of social interaction. This approach not only gets a heck of a lot closer to the essence of the matter, it also shifts the burden of justifying indecency to the indecent -- instead of the speaker having to justify his "bad taste" or "ignorance" in using the linguistic system he happens to have in his head, those who would discriminate on this basis are left having to justify their discriminatory behavior. Cheers, Scott _____________________________________________________________ Scott Sadowsky � sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org http://www.spanishtranslator.org _____________________________________________________________ "Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world, on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions." -- Polybius From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Dec 8 01:57:31 2003 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti Kurtz) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 19:57:31 -0600 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <200312072036.113fd3d5971b0@rly-na01.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG wrote: >Why not just make explicit the underpinnings of all this: power. The >so-called "standard" varieties of a language are those used by the >powerful, and the powerful can and will discriminate against you if you >don't adapt to their way of doing things -- in language use, dress, mores >and any other significant aspect of social interaction. > Amen to that, Scott. I think making these assumptions explicit is a good way to start discussion in the classroom as well as make students aware of the way things are "out in the world". My Linguistics students and I talk about this all the time. I usually tell my composition students that they need to write the way the academy expects them to so they can graduate and get jobs-- not because there's something inherently "better" about it. It's a good discussion starter about "who sets the standard." > > If you write nothing, nothing is what you end up with! Joseph Bruchac From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 8 02:04:29 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:04:29 EST Subject: NYU's Revolutionary War Food & Drink; Pina Colada (1968) Message-ID: REVOLUTIONARY WAR FOOD & DRINK From NYU TODAY ON THE WEB, 21 November 2003: http://www.nyu.edu/nyutoday/archives/17/05/Stories/libraries-digitize.html NYU Libraries to Digitize Early American, Revolutionary War Documents By Barbara Jester The Division of Libraries of New York University, in partnership with the New-York Historical Society, has received a National Leadership Grant of $199,499 from the Institute of Museum and Library Services to create a digital resource, “Witness to the Early American Experience,” for the study of the American Revolution and the early Republic. The centerpiece of the project will be the Richard Maass Collection in NYU’s Fales Collection, which consists of over 300 autographed letters, documents, broadsides, and newspapers that chronicle the early history of New York from its colonization by the Dutch in the seventeenth century through the tumultuous years of the Revolutionary War. Great figures of the American Revolution are well represented in the Collection, including autographed letters by George Washington, one of which outlines his plans for the battle of New York City; John Jay; the Marquis de Lafayette; Benedict Arnold; Samuel Adams; John Hancock; and Charles Lee. There are also such significant items as a land treaty from 1680 for the first purchase of Connecticut land from Native Americans; information, in the form of receipts for supplies, on what the Revolutionary army ate and drank; and a letter by John Quincy Adams from 1839 articulating his position on the freedom of the slaves (he was against it). (...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- PINA COLADA I'll wrap up a little of the Caribbean. The "pina colada" citation (1968, from the Virgin Islands) is possible of interest. The FIELDING'S GUIDE (1968) had nice, separate descriptions of "food" _and_ "drinks" for _each_ island. In about 30 days, I'll be in Mali, Senegal, and Ghana. I'd been in East Africa (Kenya, Tanzania, Zanzibar) last New Year's 2003. I've also been to South Africa (South Africa, Zambia, Botswana, Swaziland, Zimbabwe) and North Africa (Morocco, Tunisia. Egypt). Many of the food terms of the Caribbean originate in West Africa. EASTERN CARIBBEAN Victoria, Australia: Lonely Planet Publications First published--October 1994 3rd edition--September 2001 Pg. 575: Food & Drink Glossary accras bake blaff buljol callaloo soup christophene colombo conch conkies cou-cou crabes farcis Creole cutter dasheen dolphin feroce d'avocat flying fish goat water guava Ital jambalaya johnnycake jug-jug lambi mahimahi mango mauby mountain chicken oil down papaya Pg. 576: passionfruit paw paw pepperpot pigeon peas pineapple plantain Planters punch roti soursop sorrel juice souse starfruit tamarind FIELDING'S GUIDE TO THE CARIBBEAN, INCLUDING THE BAHAMAS 1969-70 EDITION by Jeanne and Harry E. Harman, III New York: Fielding Publications, Incorporated 1968 Pg. 205 (Barbados): Cou Cou, Jug Jug, Fish Pash, Twice Laid, Sea Egg Pie, Grapefruit Meringues, Guava Fool, Yam Balls, Pickled Breadfruit--the local specialties taste as fascinatingly titillating as their titles. Pg. 213 (Barbados): If you want to show your Bajan friends you're with it, ask for a Goat Hair or a Tewahdiddle. To make the former, combine 16 ounces of raw lliquor (cane juice), the juice of a lime, and one gill or um, and sprinkle nutmeg on the top. If this one doesn't put the fur on your rib cage, much less Billie G.'s, we give up. To swizzle a Tewahdiddle, blend a pint of beer, one tablespoon of brandy, and a teaspoon of sugar with ginger and lemon peel; a Barbadian boilermaker. Pg. 291 (Haiti): One of the outstanding taste delights is Tassot--thin strips of beef or turkey marinated in seasoned lime juice and left to cook in the sun. Peas and rice are as good as any in the Caribbean; Griot, a pork staple, is usually roasted; the black rice and langouste are excellent. Pg. 347 (Jamaica): Solomon Gundy, Dip and Fall Back, Beef Cling-Cling, Spatchcock of Pigeon, Stamp and Go--the names of Jamaican dishes roll over your tongue as juicily as the creations themselves. Pg. 362 (Jamaica): Among the best of mixed drinks are the Big Bamboo or the Appleton Glow (you'll get the latter free on arrival at Palisadoes Airport). Pg. 389 (Martinique): but for everyday consumption, islanders favor such _amuse-gueules_ (literally, mouth-amuser; practically, cocktail tidbits), Feroce (avocado stuffed with its own meat mixed with maioc and bits of fish), home-grown bananas, papaya, and pineapple, breadfruit soup--and always, plenty of rum! Pg. 395 (Martinique): "Petit punch," the national drink, bears no resemblance to a martini in the making, yet somehow (Pg. 396--ed.) maqnages to create the same soul-soothing, nothing-quite-like-it effect; it looks much the same too. Risking the wrath of some theorists (every connoisseur swears his is the only proper way to make a "petit punch"), here is our favorite formula: to one part cane-sugar syrup (preboil a little more sugar than water together) add 5 parts white rum, 2 ice cubes, and a dash of West Indian, repat, West Indian, green lime. Squeeze some of the juice into the glass, then drop the rest of the tiny fruit into the drink. (We can hear the screams from here: lime _ruins_ vintage rum!) Nevertheless, with or without lime, _merveilleux_. Pg. 436 (Puerto Rico): Chicken and rice--called Arroz con Pollo or Asopao--comes in many forms but is basically a simplified paella; it's the island's most popular dish. Pg. 528 (Trinidad and Tobago): Pelau--a medley of beef, chicken, tomatoes, onion, garlic, raisins, brown sugar, and hot peppers--tastes best when served with either Fou-fou (a local dumpling) or fried plantain with fresh avocado slices. Try Tuloons--delicious little molasses cakes spiked with coconut, fresh ginger, orange peel, and nuts--cassava pone pudding, or pastilles. Pg. 605 (U. S. Virgin Islands): The most famous drink in the islands is the banana daiquiri, a noxious mixture which tates like nail-polish remover; other concoctions served up for your edification unclude a strawberry daiquiri, pina colada (coconut-milk base), and assorted planter's punches--libations about as acceptable to our taste buds as a pink lady. Perhaps you will feel differently. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Dec 8 02:07:24 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:07:24 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase Message-ID: I see some difficulties with this approach. First, I question whether it is at all practical. I take it as axiomatic that some writing is better than others (e.g., that Mark Twain's dialect writings are better than the instructions to Form 1040); that it is advantageous to be able to write well; and that education can, at least potentially, improve writing skills (I put aside for now the pedagogical question, already raised, of how this can be done). It is probably impossible for writing teachers to avoid teaching their own dialects. Second, the implications are by no means clear. I suppose that the hoped-for result is that the powerful will become aware of the discriminatory effects of their views and will moderate them. However, if the effect is simply to de-emphasize training in writing standard English, then the lot of the powerless will only get worse. Conversely, if Scott's approach is widely accepted, the effect could be the opposite: All might seek to use standard English, the language of the powerful, and would therefore denigrate nonstandard dialects. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Scott Sadowsky [mailto:lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 10:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "at" at the end of a where phrase On 12/7/2003 01:09 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote the following: >But you're confusing writing with speaking again. I agree that a certain >"standard" should be taught in writing, if only to give kids an equal >chance in higher education and the job market. This still implicitly promotes the idea that there are certain lects that are better than others -- those used by the highly educated vs. those used by the relatively ignorant, those used by people worthy of gainful employment vs. those used by vagrants, bums and good-for-nothings, and so on. Why not just make explicit the underpinnings of all this: power. The so-called "standard" varieties of a language are those used by the powerful, and the powerful can and will discriminate against you if you don't adapt to their way of doing things -- in language use, dress, mores and any other significant aspect of social interaction. This approach not only gets a heck of a lot closer to the essence of the matter, it also shifts the burden of justifying indecency to the indecent -- instead of the speaker having to justify his "bad taste" or "ignorance" in using the linguistic system he happens to have in his head, those who would discriminate on this basis are left having to justify their discriminatory behavior. Cheers, Scott _____________________________________________________________ Scott Sadowsky · sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org http://www.spanishtranslator.org _____________________________________________________________ "Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world, on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions." -- Polybius From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Mon Dec 8 03:41:42 2003 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey S. Nathan) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:41:42 -0600 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Mon Dec 8 02:56:48 2003 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:56:48 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:37:32 -0500 Scott Sadowsky writes: > This still implicitly promotes the idea that there are certain lects > that > are better than others -- those used by the highly educated vs. > those used > by the relatively ignorant, those used by people worthy of gainful > employment vs. those used by vagrants, bums and good-for-nothings, > and so on. > > Why not just make explicit the underpinnings of all this: power. Oh, horsefeathers. If you want a waitress ... a waitperson job in a tony Manhattan restaurant, you don't walk in in pink hot pants and heart shaped sunglasses, nor do you speak as if you were raised in a Mississippi juke joint. But equally, try finding a job as a bartender on the morning shift at a Bowery bar if you walk in wearing a blue blazer, gray flannels, wingtips, and talking like a Connecticut Brahman. I taught my children that there is no such thing as right language or wrong language, but there is appropriate language. If a person is unable or unwilling to learn the language of moderately educated people, that can reasonably be taken as an important factor in judging ability to perform in a lucrative and upwardly mobile job. Power of the elite over the downtrodden has little to do with it. D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Mon Dec 8 03:10:36 2003 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:10:36 -0500 Subject: where "right" and "wrong" come from Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 20:06:42 -0500 Laurence Horn > If I may presume, I suspect Ron (and Dennis) would then ask, > quasi-rhetorically, where *those* teachers obtained their notion of > proper usage. Is there any non-arbitrary way to define "good > grammar"? I'm sure Justice Potter Steward could find a way. D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Mon Dec 8 03:12:16 2003 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:12:16 EST Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase Message-ID: For any English teacher, currently teaching who never had a course in language, or teacher-in-training, I would recommend Walt Wolfram, Carolyn Temple Adger, and Donna Christian's Dialects in Schools and Communities (1999, Lawrence Erlbaum Associates). It is geared more toward educators than Wolfram and Schilling-Estes, and is very accessible to the non-linguist. DF Coye The College of NJ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 8 03:37:25 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:37:25 -0500 Subject: Basket Weaving (1952, 1958) Message-ID: Oh, all right. Here goes: Big Green Coach Tempers Praise With Suggestions By Phil Elderkin Sports Writer of The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Oct 21, 1958. p. 10 (1 page): When Bob said yesterday that he thought other grid conferences were beginning to adopt some of the ideals of the Ivy League, he was striking a blow to those colleges which do not give money under the table, buy their players automobiles, or offer courses in basket weaving and pencil sharpening. SPORTS PARADE BRAVEN DYER. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 26, 1952. p. C1 (1 page): Ineligibility of Northwestern's Dan Karchaturoff reminds me of the time some years ago when Illinois was having trouble with a star gridder. Somebody claimed he had been taking snap courses such as "Our Trees and How to Climb Them," basket weaving, elementary canoeing, etc. SPORTSCRIPTS PAUL ZIMMERMAN, FRANK FINCH. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 18, 1950. p. C1 (1 page): Ned Cronin studying Hopi basketweaving at night school. From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG Mon Dec 8 05:55:30 2003 From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 00:55:30 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/7/2003 09:07 PM, Baker, John wrote the following: >I see some difficulties with this approach. First, I question whether it >is at all practical. I take it as axiomatic that some writing is better >than others [...]; that it is advantageous to be able to write well; and >that education can, at least potentially, improve writing skills.... I don't think what we could call the union of the set of "good" writing and the set of "non-standard" English features is all that big. I have the distinct impression that 90% of "good writing" is providing your information in an easy-to-digest order, dividing it up into easily-assimilable units, making explicit information your audience doesn't necessarily have or won't necessarily access when reading your writing, and so on. The other 10% (yes, I'm making these numbers up as I go along) is about using the right vocabulary, and that has more to do with register and technolect than dialect -- it rarely matters if your dialect uses "bucket" or "pail", but it may matter very much if you call an "oil sump" an "oil pail" or an "oil bucket". >Second, the implications are by no means clear. I suppose that the >hoped-for result is that the powerful will become aware of the >discriminatory effects of their views and will moderate them. Not even I am so utopian. The main result I would hope for would be the disappearance of lect-based inferiority complexes and self-esteem problems. >Conversely, if Scott's approach is widely accepted, the effect could be >the opposite: All might seek to use standard English, the language of the >powerful, and would therefore denigrate nonstandard dialects. Does that happen with things other than language, where people are aware of the coercion that they're subject to? Does the existence of high school dress codes get kids all enthusiastic about dressing like the powerful tell them to, or do they grit their teeth and dress that way because they know they'll be punished for not doing so? Cheers, Scott __________________________________________________________________ Scott Sadowsky � sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org http://www.spanishtranslator.org __________________________________________________________________ "Linguistics is arguably the most hotly contested property in the academic realm. It is soaked with the blood of poets, theologians, philosophers, philologists, psychologists, biologists, and neurologists, along with whatever blood can be got out of grammarians." -- Russ Rymer From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG Mon Dec 8 06:06:03 2003 From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 01:06:03 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031207214138.02a2b2b0@mail.wayne.edu> Message-ID: On 12/7/2003 10:41 PM, Geoffrey S. Nathan wrote the following: >I will probably regret this comment, since it is somewhat out of the >mainstream, but I am increasingly convinced that the association of >'correct' grammar with those in 'power' is itself an item of faith by >those of a progressive social bent. I'll let the English-based linguists who hang out here address the specific cases you cite. For my part, let me give you some evidence from the Spanish-speaking world. Ask any Chilean about how they speak Spanish, and they'll go off on a tirade about how horribly they and their countrymen speak the language. And these rants are inclusive -- their criticism is also self-criticism. Ask them where "good" Spanish is spoken and they'll tell you Peru and, in second place, Colombia. If you ask them specifically about how Argentinians speak the language, you'll probably be told that they speak it pretty well, but that they're not exactly models to be imitated (national rivalries play a strong part in this judgement). Ask Bolivians where "good" Spanish is spoken and the answer will almost certainly be Peru. Lima, to be specific. Central Americans will cite either Mexico (Mexico City) or Colombia (especially Bogota if they're familiar with the different dialects) as being where "good" Spanish is spoken. Argentinians from Buenos Aires are quite content with their own use of Spanish, having gone so far as to create a Lunfardo language academy, Lunfardo being the underclass and lower-class sociolect immortalized in thousands of tango lyrics. But ask provincial Argentinians about how they speak and they'll tell you the residents of Buenos Aires are the folks who really know how to speak right. I've also been told, anecdotally, that Venezuelans will tend to admit --teeth-grittingly, due to national rivalries-- that Colombians speak Spanish better than they do, especially the residents of Bogota. So, what's behind this? What's the pattern here? Why do Lima, Bogota, Mexico City and --to a much lesser degree-- Buenos Aires keep popping up as bastions of "good" Spanish? Pull out your pre-1810 historical maps you'll see that these cities were the capitals of the viceroyalties the Spanish established in their colonies in the Americas. They were the centers of civil, judicial, religious and economic power, as well being the centers of education. And two centuries after they were abolished, they continue to be the centers of "good" Spanish in the mind of the vast majority of speakers. (Spain itself, by the way, is virtually never cited as such a place, most likely due to its role as the villain in this story). Buenos Aires' status as a place where "pretty good" --but not "good"-- Spanish is spoken can be explained by the fact that the viceroyalty of which it was the capital was the last one of the four to be established. Argentina is a fascinating case in this regard. A whole series of linguistic changes occurred in the century after Buenos Aires was made capital of a viceroyalty, as the lower classes increasingly imitated the middle classes who were following lead of the local ruling class which was busy imitating the Spanish elite. To cite just one example, there was a strong and very well-documented lambdacist tendency (a low prestige feature) in Argentinian Spanish that is now utterly extinct. So no, there is really no faith at play here at all. >In my experience the strongest defenders of 'correct' grammar are >primarily school teachers and print journalists, hardly those who >constitute bastions of political and social power. Ah, but they are defending their privileged positions as gatekeepers to nothing less than "correct English". It is a piddling bit of turf they have to defend, but it's all they have, and as you've noted they are very fierce in their defense of it. After all, it's about the only power they've got. BTW, in the debate that's arisen on this matter there's a very strong tendency to interpret "power" as being only the very top level of power, and that's just not the case. A McDonald's shift manger only has slightly more power than a homeless person, but if you're a line cook on his shift his power is considerable -- he could ruin your life for a couple months by firing you and making you unable to pay the bills. Cheers, Scott Cheers, Scott From pds at VISI.COM Mon Dec 8 05:36:30 2003 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 23:36:30 -0600 Subject: Bob-key In-Reply-To: <20031129172737.C968D6297@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: So I'm in the stall, and there being no graffiti, I'm reduced to reading the instructions for changing rolls of tissue. These instructions make reference to a "bob-key", which is apparently inserted into the spindle in such a way that one of the axial pins is pushed back, allowing the spindle to be removed from the wall bracket. I'm guessing that a heavy paper-clip would do the job, but the term itself is new to me. I'm also puzzled as to which of the senses of "bob" might be involved here. So too is an Andrea Tomkins at http://www.quietfish.com/notebook/20323.html (the only true hit in Google): >>>>>1. Insert bob-key into spindle hole No.1. (My question - what is a bob-key, and why should a toilet roll holder even need one? Is this a new antitheft feature? More importantly, who, in my office, is the Keeper of the Bob-key? Dare I broach this subject with the office manager?) <<<<< Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From indigo at WELL.COM Mon Dec 8 06:15:51 2003 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:15:51 -0800 Subject: Underwater Basket Weaving(1958) Message-ID: >I seriously doubt that there is a real field of underwater weaving, however. > >-- Doug Wilson I originally had the same understanding of "underwater basketweaving" that everyone has been discussing, but later found out that there is actually a basketweaving technique in which you keep the work submerged in water (presumably to soften the fibers so they are easier to bend). I don't know if it's actually *called* underwater basketweaving, & in any case it's very different from the scubadiving image evoked by the college usage. I've also heard "underwater toenail-clipping", I guess for when "underwater basketweaving" began to feel too overused, clicheed, not clever enough, &c. -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com http://www.indigosom.com Fetish of the week: fragrant white flowers (narcissus, tuberose, night-blooming cereus) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 8 08:09:42 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 03:09:42 EST Subject: Ajiaco or Agico (1762) Message-ID: A description of the Spanish islands and settlements on the coast of the West Indies, comp. from authentic memoirs, rev. by gentlemen who have resided many years in the Spanish settlements; and illustrated with thirty-two maps and plans, chiefly from original drawings taken from the Spaniards in the last war, and engraved by Thomas Jefferys ... Imprint London, T. Jefferys, 1762. (CATNYP record from NYPL. I read the 1970 AMS EDITION reprint at NYU, from the "edition of 1792, London." I'm sure it's the same as 1762 because Thomas Jefferys died in 1771. The copyright page probably erred with 1792 rather than 1762. The copied title page shows 1762--ed.) "Ajiaco" is still not in OED or Merriam-Webster? See the ADS-L archives. I discussed "ajiaco" around when I visited Cuba (Christmas 2001-New Year's 2002). Amazon.com is amazing. "Ajiaco" is not only in about 50 books, but it's on FOUR MENUS. Amazon now has menus! OED has never cited from this book in about 250 years? Pg. 16: The manzanilla is remarkable for its poisonous fruit; the antidote is common oil: the wood is variegated like marble. (OED has various spellings of "manchineel" from 1625--ed.) Pg. 16: The palm trees are of four species: the first produce cocos or coco nuts; the second dates; the third, called _palma real_, a very disagreeable fruit, less than the date; and the fourth, called _corozo_, a fruit larger than the date, of exquisite taste, and greatly used in making cooling and wholsome draughts. (OED has "1760-1772 tr." for "corozo"--ed.) Pg. 16: The bejuco with, or vine here bears a fruit called habilla, or bean, very bitter, but one of the most effectual antidotes against the bited of vipers and serpents;... (OED has 1848 for "bejuco"--ed.) Pg. 17: Barley, wheat, and other esculent grains of _europe_, are little known; maize and rice, of which they make their bolla, or bread, abound even to excess. The best sort of bolla is kneaded with milk. Among the negroes the cassava bread is most common; it is made of the roots of yuca, yams, and moniatos, the upper skin of which they strip off, and grate the inside into water. There is great plenty of camotes, in taste like _Malaga_ potatoes, used both as pickles, and roots with meat. Pg. 17: The cacao trees, from which chocolate is made, excel here, and the chocolate is more esteemed than that of other countries; especially the chocolate of the _Magdalena_, which is highly valued, and by way of distinction, in preference to that of the _Caracas_, is sold by millares. Pg. 18: The fruits peculiar to the country, are the pine-apple, which from its beauty, smell, and taste is stiled by way of preference, the queen of fruits; the papapays, guanabanas, guayabas, sapotes, mameis, plantanes, cocos, which is a species of the palm-tree, and many others. Pg. 18: Among the nobility and better sort their most luxurious dish is the agico; which consists of pork fried, birds of several kinds, plantanes, maize paste, and seasonings made of pimento or agi. Pg. 58: The _Vainilla_ is a little cod full of small black seeds; it is four or five inches long, bigger than the stem of a tobacco leaf, but when dried, much resembling it; so that our privateers at first often threw them away, when they took any, wondering why the _Spaniards_ should lay up tobacco-items. Pg. 62: in the neighbourhood of _Vera Cruz_, there grows the nopal, a species of the _Tuna_, or prickly pear, but without thorns, on which the _Cochineal_ is found. (...) These pastles are then placed upon the plants of the nopal, or prickly _Indian_ fig (which they take care to cultivate well for this purpose) and in two, three or four days these animals bring forth a great many young ones; soon after which the dams die. (OED has 1730, then 1783 for "nopal"--ed.) Pg. 63: This they do much in the same manner as before, only now they take off the plant a great many young ones, with their dams, which makes this sort of cochineal to be called _Granilla_, from the quantity of small ones found therein. (OED has 1812 for "granilla"--ed.) Pg. 63: As to the manner of killing the cochineal, this is commonly done two ways; either in hot water, or in tamascales, which are little ovens made for that purpose; though they are sometimes killed by roasting them upon comales, which are flat stoves with fire under them, made use of by the _Indian_ women to bake their maize bread. ("Tamascales" and "comales" are not in OED?--ed.) From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Mon Dec 8 12:52:42 2003 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 07:52:42 -0500 Subject: The Elephant's Memory - invented writing system Message-ID: The Elephant's Memory is a pictorial language consisting of more than a hundred and a fifty combinable graphic elements (pictograms and ideograms). It invites people from various cultural backgrounds to communicate and explore a new means of expression. http://www.khm.de/~timot/pageTwo.html From db.list at PMPKN.NET Mon Dec 8 14:00:51 2003 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 09:00:51 -0500 Subject: Underwater Basket Weaving(1958) Message-ID: From: "Douglas G. Wilson" : I've heard "basket weaving" (unmodified) as an "undemanding course : archetype" since the 1960's myself. There are -- I assume -- many real : college courses in basket weaving (as an art or craft). Augmented : expressions such as "underwater basket-weaving", "Serbo-Croatian : basket-weaving", etc. make the humor transparent, with the longer : names also denoting "specialized" forms of basket-weaving with the : implication that the 'jock' or other (academically) incompetent (or : lazy) student can make a whole academic career out of such : 'specializations'. Growing up (in Maryland in the 1970s/1980s), courses in Underwater Basket Weaving were always attributed to universities in California. When one was named, it was (as i recall) either UCLA or Berkeley. : I believe there is also the understanding that an expertise in such an : activity would be worthless in the employment market after graduation. I actually heard a variant of it once (in high school, mid- to late 1980s) where someone said people joke about courses in Underwater Basket Weaving, but it's called that 'cause you ahve to keep the basket-making materials under water so that they remain flexible enough to weave--so, therefore, a course in Underwater Basket Weaving isn't as bogus as the name makes it sound. I never really looked into it--is this yet another case of the debunking of an urban myth being an urban myth itself? Nothing on this seems to be in the snopes.com archives. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Mon Dec 8 14:01:45 2003 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 09:01:45 -0500 Subject: chocolate Message-ID: From: "Mark A. Mandel" : From: David Bowie : Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the : house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is : chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. : Ah ha! I JUST ended a letter to a friend with what I remembered of : these Laws, with the apology "(attribution mislaid)". Whence come : they? Jeanne Bowie, my wife, about 3 years ago. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Mon Dec 8 15:04:41 2003 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 10:04:41 -0500 Subject: Bob-key Message-ID: Tom, The bob key is probably an item from the corporation Bobrick Washroom Equipment, Inc. (North Hollywood, CA), a maker of washroom equipment. http://www.bobrick.com/ Their catalog notes that the "theft resistant spindle" may be "removed with special key furnished"... http://www.bobrick.com/Literature/downloads/ttdispenser.pdf Cannot find 'bob key' as a mention on their site. George Cole Shippensburg University From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 8 19:45:23 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:45:23 EST Subject: "Nice Guys Finish Last" (1946); Long Ball (1920); Where's my "boner"? Message-ID: NICE GUYS FINISH LAST For the possible interest of anyone writing a quotations dictionary. The entire story is here on www.paperofrecord.com. 17 July 1946, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 8, col. 1: _"Nice Guys" Wind Up in Last Place, Scoffs Lippy_ By FRANK GRAHAM Of New York Journal-American ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- LONG BALL A nice guy at OED asked about this. 24 June 1920, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 4, col. 6: He will drive a long ball to any field now and then, but center is his "groove." 9 December 1920, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 1, col. 4: As he can still hit as good as ever, he may do a Babe Ruth in the Pacific Coast League, as the Salt Lake park and several other parks on the circuit are said to be highly advantageous to "long ball" hitters. 7 July 1921, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 1, col. 6: Perhaps Rapp will find his batting eye to the half portion park here, so accommodating and friendly to a player who hits a long ball. 28 December 1922, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 4, col. 6: The pitcher can take a chance--no great chance at that--with a weak hitter, a man who will not hit a long ball, that he dare not take with men like Tobin, Blue, et al., who, at any time, are liable to bury that ball in the stands for a home run. ------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WHERE'S MY BONER? I can't get a "boner" reading the SPORTING NEWS. This is terrible. Nor a "bone head." Nor a "jinx." Nor a "seventh inning stretch." Nor a "winning isn't everything." Nor a "you can't win 'em all." Nor a "you can look it up." DUDE, WHERE'S MY BONER? From psokolowski at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Dec 8 20:18:20 2003 From: psokolowski at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Peter Sokolowski) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 15:18:20 -0500 Subject: in case you were wondering if "McJob" really, really IS a word... Message-ID: (...it made the headline in "LeMonde" today. No mention of M-W, though, just a business article describing what it calls "precarious" jobs and Wal-Mart's growing influence worldwide). http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0 at 2-3208,36-344985,0.html Peter A. Sokolowski Associate Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. 47 Federal Street Springfield, MA 01102 Phone: (413) 734-3134 x178 E-mail: psokolowski at Merriam-Webster.com www.Merriam-Webster.com www.Merriam-WebsterCollegiate.com www.Merriam-WebsterUnabridged.com From Vocabula at AOL.COM Mon Dec 8 20:23:23 2003 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 15:23:23 EST Subject: in case you were wondering if "McJob" really, really IS a word... Message-ID: It may be a word, but it's a miserable one. http://www.vocabula.com/FreeArticles/VRAUGUST03Fiske.htm Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review www.vocabula.com ______________________ The Vocabula Review A measly $8.95 a year www.vocabula.com ______________________ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 United States Tel: (781) 861-1515 Five by Fiske: The five essays included in this volume are as follows: "The Decline of the Dictionary"; "The Perfectibility of Words" and "The Imperfectibility of People," chapters 1 and 2 of The Dictionary of Concise Writing; "Expressions That Dull Our Reason and Dim Our Insight" and "Writing That Demands to Be Read Aloud, Speech That Calls to Be Captured in Print," chapters 1 and 2 of The Dimwit's Dictionary. http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooks.htm#VRfiveby From abigail.zitin at OUP.COM Mon Dec 8 20:50:22 2003 From: abigail.zitin at OUP.COM (Zitin, Abigail) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 15:50:22 -0500 Subject: for basketball fans Message-ID: I had thought drafting an entry for "point guard" was going to be simple (my first quot is December 1970, from proquest, if anyone's interested in finding an antedating). To a certain extent, it was; what I'm stuck on is the (apparently) subsequent use of "point" in the same (or a closely related) sense. Webster's Sports Dict. (1976) has "a player position in the frontcourt in the area roughly between the division line and the free throw circle which is occupied by a guard who directs the team's offense." My first contextual quot, however, is the following: 1978 N.Y. Times 16 Jan. C12/4 John Moore, a junior guard...played the point in the zone defense that forced 19 Razorback turnovers. Does this quotation indicate that John Moore is playing a position in the zone defense referred to as the "point"? or is he defending the other team's point guard? The Canadian Oxford Dictionary, to complicate matters, has "a frontcourt position, usu. manned by the guard who sets up the team's defence." My sense is that "point" is not used in basketball as a purely spatial designation (as it is in hockey), and while it is frequently just short for "point guard" (1999, XXL Basketball, Aug: "You shouldn't play two-guard, you should play the point"), it has a somewhat looser application (as Webster's Sports Dict. implies with "a player position") insofar as another player could take over the function of the point guard. So: any thoughts on this? offense vs. defense, spatial vs. personal, etc... all musings welcome (including likely contexts in which one might hear this: all I've been able to find is "play the point", but could you have someone "at point"? shooting "from [the] point"? etc.) All antedatings too, as ever. Many thanks, from the athletically impaired Abigail Zitin OED From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 8 21:22:22 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:22:22 -0500 Subject: for basketball fans In-Reply-To: <3888B7D1173A414C930CED891249F6360249FB1D@newyork.am.oup.biz> Message-ID: At 3:50 PM -0500 12/8/03, Zitin, Abigail wrote: >I had thought drafting an entry for "point guard" was going to be >simple (my first quot is December 1970, from proquest, if anyone's >interested in finding an antedating). To a certain extent, it was; >what I'm stuck on is the (apparently) subsequent use of "point" in the >same (or a closely related) sense. > >Webster's Sports Dict. (1976) has "a player position in the frontcourt >in the area roughly between the division line and the free throw >circle which is occupied by a guard who directs the team's offense." >My first contextual quot, however, is the following: > >1978 N.Y. Times 16 Jan. C12/4 John Moore, a junior guard...played the >point in the zone defense that forced 19 Razorback turnovers. > >Does this quotation indicate that John Moore is playing a position in >the zone defense referred to as the "point"? or is he defending the >other team's point guard? The Canadian Oxford Dictionary, to >complicate matters, has "a frontcourt position, usu. manned by the >guard who sets up the team's defence." > >My sense is that "point" is not used in basketball as a purely spatial >designation (as it is in hockey), and while it is frequently just >short for "point guard" (1999, XXL Basketball, Aug: "You shouldn't >play two-guard, you should play the point"), it has a somewhat looser >application (as Webster's Sports Dict. implies with "a player >position") insofar as another player could take over the function of >the point guard. > >So: any thoughts on this? offense vs. defense, spatial vs. personal, >etc... all musings welcome (including likely contexts in which one >might hear this: all I've been able to find is "play the point", but >could you have someone "at point"? shooting "from [the] point"? etc.) >All antedatings too, as ever. > Off the top of my head (where NBA players would likely dribble the ball)... The usual reference here in pro basketball is to the offense rather than the defense; "playing the point" usually means bringing the ball upcourt and ceteris paribus the point guard is the player who is generally responsible for doing so. He (or she) controls the ball, passes well, and almost always leads the team in assists; he is sometimes compared to the quarterback in football, both for leadership/responsibility qualities and for adeptness at passing. The "guard" part, though, may include defensive responsibilities as well, or so I gather from the fact that occasionally you find NBA players referred to as "point forward". The first time I recall this was when Milwaukee Bucks coach (now Dallas Maverick coach) Don Nelson appointed one of his players, Paul Presser, "point forward" in the late 1970s, presumably because even though he was taller than most guards and didn't defend the other team's guards he was a good ball-handler. But when the versatile Magic Johnson came into the league at 6'9", he was referred to a point guard simpliciter even though he was eminently capable of rebounding, shooting hooks, and exhibiting other non-guard-like skills, as well as setting the career assist record that stood until a more conventional (though excellent) point guard, John Stockton, broke it a few years ago. It can be a detriment for a point guard to be too much of a scorer; the prototype, like Stockton, is supposed to think about passing and setting up his teammates for scoring. I'm not sure I'd call it a "spatial" category as much as a functional one. More recently, NBA references by players, coaches, and media, are often to the positions as designated by numbers: 1= point guard, 2 = shooting guard, 3 = "small" forward, 4 = power forward, 5 = center. This allows for evaluations of the form "He's not a true 1 because he likes to shoot, he's more of a 1 and a half" or "he's a 2.5". larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 8 21:28:19 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:28:19 -0500 Subject: in case you were wondering if "McJob" really, really IS a word... In-Reply-To: <12d.3687ad79.2d0637bb@aol.com> Message-ID: At 3:23 PM -0500 12/8/03, Robert Hartwell Fiske wrote: >It may be a word, but it's a miserable one. > In the eye of the beholder, I guess. I find it a witty and useful coinage myself. The nice thing about words is that in general nobody will force you to use one you don't like. If you choose to avoid referring to dead-end jobs with low salaries, few intrinsic rewards, and no opportunity for advancement "McJobs" and prefer instead to refer to them more elegantly as "dead-end jobs with low salaries, few intrinsic rewards, and no opportunity for advancement", far be it from me to object. larry From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Mon Dec 8 21:36:23 2003 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:36:23 -0800 Subject: for basketball fans Message-ID: >1978 N.Y. Times 16 Jan. C12/4 John Moore, a junior guard...played the >point in the zone defense that forced 19 Razorback turnovers. >Does this quotation indicate that John Moore is playing a position in >the zone defense referred to as the "point"? Yes. >or is he defending the >other team's point guard? No. He's the guy who brings the ball downcourt and can set up a play (back in the olden days, they would even hold up a finger to designate which play the team should run. I think that went out the window with the Bulls --just pass it to Jordan-- and the Jazz--everybody to one side, then Stockton to Malone). fritz From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Dec 8 21:40:48 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:40:48 -0500 Subject: in case you were wondering if "McJob" really, really IS a word... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 04:28:19PM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: > At 3:23 PM -0500 12/8/03, Robert Hartwell Fiske wrote: > >It may be a word, but it's a miserable one. > > > > In the eye of the beholder, I guess. I find it a witty and useful > coinage myself. The nice thing about words is that in general nobody > will force you to use one you don't like. If you choose to avoid > referring to dead-end jobs with low salaries, few intrinsic rewards, > and no opportunity for advancement "McJobs" and prefer instead to > refer to them more elegantly as "dead-end jobs with low salaries, few > intrinsic rewards, and no opportunity for advancement", far be it > from me to object. America is a great country, innit? JTS From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Mon Dec 8 21:50:17 2003 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:50:17 -0800 Subject: for basketball fans Message-ID: >More recently, NBA references by players, coaches, and media, are >often to the positions as designated by numbers: 1= point guard, 2 = >shooting guard, 3 = "small" forward, 4 = power forward, 5 = center. >This allows for evaluations of the form "He's not a true 1 because he >likes to shoot, he's more of a 1 and a half" or "he's a 2.5". >larry I think this renaming has gone a step further. A lot of my students don't even use the same terms that I do. They say 'point, post, and wing.' I'm not really sure what a 'wing' in b-ball is, but I think it's a small forward. Post is a center. For me, being of a different generation, 'post' refers to HOW a center plays, not the position itself. When a center plays post, he would be near the basket often with his back to the basket, so that he could either screen or do some fancy hook or turn-around jumper, or maybe pass the ball back out. The idea is that he would be immovable, like a post. American basketball lends itself perfectly to this style of play. There is nothing more frustrating than playing church league with a 7' European center. In international ball, the key is not a key, but a fan, so centers cannot play near the basket. Therefore, you get centers shooting 3 pointers and they typically cannot play post. Fritz From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 8 22:08:11 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 17:08:11 -0500 Subject: in case you were wondering if "McJob" really, really IS a word... In-Reply-To: <200312082140.hB8LenL06386@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > America is a great country, innit? Just to state the obvious: many people who enjoy language with creativity and flair consider "McJob" to be one of the great word-coinages of recent decades. The McDonald's Corporation wouldn't be so upset about the word if it didn't have a strong appeal. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU Mon Dec 8 22:24:53 2003 From: jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:24:53 -0600 Subject: squinny In-Reply-To: <0HPL00298K5PS0@smtp4.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: Is anyone familiar with the term "squinny" meaning a ground squirrel? All of our (scant) evidence is from Iowa. From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM Mon Dec 8 23:08:40 2003 From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 18:08:40 -0500 Subject: squinny Message-ID: My girlfriend is from Iowa and she and her parents use "squinny" in just this way. I have no evidence from any other state or region, but point out western PA "grinnie" as a parallel form. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 00:51:58 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 19:51:58 -0500 Subject: Point Guard (1971); Murderers' Row (May 1921) Message-ID: POINT GUARD (for basketball fans) The position of "point guard" was also called "playmaking guard" or "playmaker" or "passing guard" or "small guard." The other guard was/is the "shooting guard" or "big guard." The LOS ANGELES TIMES covered the great John Wooden-coached UCLA teams and might have "point guard" in the late 1960s. 16 March 1968, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 34, col. 1: Rookie Walt Frazier and Dick Barnett are a happy blend of playmaking and shooting in the backcourt. 18 December 1971, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 6, col. 2: The point guard is Harold Fox, one of the premier backcourt stars in the country. 16 December 1972, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 10, col. 4: Sophomore Baron Hill (21.0 scoring as frosh) is the point guard. (...) Brothers John (senior) and T. Jay (junior) Pecorak will be starting with point guard Mike Sorrentino, all with experience. --------------------------------------------------------------- MURDERERS' ROW The revised OED has a September 1921 "murderers' row" for the New York Yankees. It's a crime. 5 May 1921, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 1, col. 1: _Yankee Pitching All to Bad, but Slump of_ _Murderers' Row Shares Blame_ _In Run of Defeats_ From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 01:13:26 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:13:26 -0500 Subject: Point Guard (1971); Murderers' Row (May 1921) In-Reply-To: <12D27679.2D60916F.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > The revised OED has a September 1921 "murderers' row" for the New > York Yankees. It's a crime. > > 5 May 1921, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 1, col. 1: > _Yankee Pitching All to Bad, but Slump of_ > _Murderers' Row Shares Blame_ > _In Run of Defeats_ Here's earlier from ProQuest: 1918 _Wash. Post_ 5 July 8 Eddie's lusty swipe along with the Yankee boxman's hectic heave were very much needed, as "Murderer's Row" showed before the crowd was able to make for the exits. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Dec 9 01:41:54 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:41:54 -0500 Subject: "Murderer's Row" non-Yankee-1905 Message-ID: Ha! I speet on your Yankees! They stole the term. RHDAS has an 1858 cite, supposedly. Dickson's Baseball Dictionary tells about that early cite, but I'm not sure if it's real or not. >From Ancestry.com, with a quick, down-and-dirty search, we get, from the Washington Post, April 24, 1905, page 8, col. 6, the following: <> So, Fred, there's your Yale connection. Six degrees of separation from Fred Shapiro. :) Of course, the player in question, assuming it was Billy Lush, played for Cleveland in 1904(his last season) and had a lifetime batting average of .249. No doubt he should have been a memeber of "manslaughterer's row" instead of full-bore murderer's row. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 01:45:42 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:45:42 -0500 Subject: No "I" in "Team" (1964) Message-ID: A sports "teamwork" cliche. There's no letter "I" in the word "team." So? Take the "L" out of "lover" and it's "over." Big deal? "No 'I' in 'team'" has 14,500 Google hits. I...er, the team here..checked THE SPORTING NEWS. (PAPER OF RECORD) 24 December 1966, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 21, col. 5: As for the loss of Sandy Koufax, Ron (Hunt--ed.) added, "We still have a good team. It takes teamwork and you can't spell 'team' with an 'I'." (PROQUEST) 'Every Boy Is Taught to Swim' By Ed Rumill Chief Sports Columnist of The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jul 18, 1964. p. 6 (1 page): Teamwork, cooperation, and physical fitness are stressed. Such signs as "If you don't play to win, why keep score?" and "There's no I in team," hang from bunkhouse rafters to constantly remind boys of the importance of teamwork. Sports of The Times HARVEY ARATON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 25, 2000. p. D1 (1 page): For Parcells--who typically embraced the maxim that there is no I in team, only Bill--the strange turn of events that has beclouded the Jets can best be described as wickedly ironic, and better make that with a capital I. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 02:23:48 2003 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:23:48 EST Subject: Cowboy lingo Message-ID: In a message dated 12/6/03 12:04:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: > There are a lot of terms Curly's poem which are idiosyncratic to cowboys at > least to my knowledge. > > A few: > learned to tighten his reins > center-fire saddle There is also a "rim-fire saddle". "Spanish rig means that the rigging rings that caught the girth or cinch that held the saddle on were located on the front of the saddle, right and left, directly below the horn. Center-fire means the rings were placed at the middle of the sides of the tree, a style so much preferred by Californians that it also was known as the California rig The Anglo-Americans...improved [the Mexican stock saddle]...by doubling the rigigging . The saddle with two cinches was called a double-rigged or rim-fire saddle, and it came to be the Texas favorite." Foster-Harris _The Look of the Old West_ New York: Viking, 1955, no ISBN, pp 240ff. The terms "center-fire" and "rim-fire" are by analogy with center-fire (primer in the center of the base) and rim-fire (primer all around the rim of the base) metallic cartridges, which were developed during the Civil War. As far as I know, cowboys were the only people to use the terms "center-fire" and "rim-fire" to refer to saddles, although I don't doubt both types of saddles are still being made today. Incidentally, a metallic cartridge is an oxymoron, since etymologically a "cartridge" is a bullet (or shot, or buck-and-ball which is both) plus powder wrapped in PAPER ("cart"). > I do not know about grammar but I ain't a grammarian. Your grammar is fine, and she says you forgot her birthday. > One thing cowboys are noted for is their poetry. Perhaps this is due to the > loneliness of ranch life -- I can vouch for this since I spent a couple of > years living on a small ranch a few miles outside Noplace, Arkansas which is > about ten miles outside Plumb Lost -- but for many many years The Western > Horseman has published poetry and today there are many cowboy poetry get > togethers in different areas of the US. The best known cowboy poet these > days is Baxter Black but in earlier days there were Curly, of course, > Haywire Mac McClintock Haywire Mac is famous as a hobo poet. Was he also a cowboy poet? Now for a note on the terms "cowpuncher" and "cowpoke". In some long-forgotten book I read that both were terms for a man who rode on the outside of a cattle car poking at the cows inside with a pole so that they would get exercise or something. It was an unskilled dead-end job, even by 19th century standards, but it had one fringe benefit---a man could sign on at Dodge City or other cattle drive point and get paid to ride to Chicago (presumably paid enough to afford the return trip, unless it was included in the job). So many cowboys took a turn at cowpunching just to get to see the big city that "cowpuncher" or "cowpoke" became synonymous with "cowboy". Does anybody know if this story be true? Off-topic: MSNBC News today says that the term "In like Flynn" originated to describe how the actor Error Flynn emerged unscathed from a potentially career-destroying scandal. Correct? Somehow it sounds to me like an etymythology. - James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Dec 9 02:32:58 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:32:58 -0500 Subject: In like Flynn Message-ID: Here's Unca Cecil's take on it. http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_156.html I haven't searched our archives for an update. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "James A. Landau" To: Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:23 PM Subject: Re: Cowboy lingo > Off-topic: MSNBC News today says that the term "In like Flynn" originated to > describe how the actor Error Flynn emerged unscathed from a potentially > career-destroying scandal. Correct? Somehow it sounds to me like an etymythology. > > > - James A. Landau > systems engineer > FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) > Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA > From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Dec 9 02:43:23 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:43:23 -0500 Subject: In Like Flynn (Was: Cowboy lingo) Message-ID: That's a persistent rumor, demolished by Barry's work. Flynn was charged with statutory rape in 1942, while "in like Flynn" goes back at least to 1940. The most likely explanation is simply that it's rhyming slang; the counterpart, as shown by a 1943 citation also found by Barry, is "out like Stout." Even though "in like Flynn" did not derive from the Errol Flynn trial, there is anecdotal evidence, presented in The Straight Dope, that the association was early and contributed to the phrase's popularity. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:24 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Cowboy lingo Off-topic: MSNBC News today says that the term "In like Flynn" originated to describe how the actor Error Flynn emerged unscathed from a potentially career-destroying scandal. Correct? Somehow it sounds to me like an etymythology. - James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From pds at VISI.COM Tue Dec 9 03:25:46 2003 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:25:46 -0600 Subject: Bob-key In-Reply-To: <20031208150410.DE4706745@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Thanks, George. Catalog item B-2740 (in the linked .pdf below) is undoubtedly the dispenser I found in the stall. And if you follow the links to the replacement parts list, you'll find part #24-17 BOBKEY (no hyphen). Now one might suppose that the "bob" in "bobkey" is derived from the company name "Bobrick", on the model of "McMuffin (tm)", but I can find no other catalog items or parts named with a "bob" prefix. So I'm still wondering if "bob" is doing any descriptive work here, or if that's just what it's called. --Tom Kysilko At 12/8/2003 10:04 AM -0500, GSCole wrote: >The bob key is probably an item from the corporation Bobrick Washroom >Equipment, Inc. (North Hollywood, CA), a maker of washroom equipment. > >http://www.bobrick.com/ > >Their catalog notes that the "theft resistant spindle" may be "removed >with special key furnished"... >http://www.bobrick.com/Literature/downloads/ttdispenser.pdf > >Cannot find 'bob key' as a mention on their site. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 03:38:41 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 22:38:41 -0500 Subject: Point Guard (1971); Murderers' Row (May 1921) In-Reply-To: <12D27679.2D60916F.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > 18 December 1971, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 6, col. 2: > The point guard is Harold Fox, one of the premier backcourt stars in the country. Here's earlier from ProQuest: 1970 _N.Y. Times_ 3 Dec. 80 "We have no such things as guards, forwards and centers in our 1-3-1 offense," said Tom Wasdin, Jacksonville's new coach, yesterday. "At least we don't call them by those names. We classify our players by the kind of job we want them to do and when we recruit, we look for point guards, wings and postmen. "A point guard is a new name for the old-fashioned playmaker," the Dolphin coach continued. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From t_wolf at ANGELFIRE.COM Tue Dec 9 12:05:30 2003 From: t_wolf at ANGELFIRE.COM (Thomas Wolf) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:05:30 +0100 Subject: "Crabs and ice water" Message-ID: I have recently come across the expression "crabs and ice water". I first encountered it on the "Word Detective" page (column from Nov. 17), however, the origin and precise meaning of this phrase were not explained there. I got curious and searched myself. Here are the meager results: 1. "everything else is blue skies, crabs and ice water". From Massachusetts. 2. "...he had hard crabs and ice water; he probably had a heart condition". From Baltimore, Maryland. 3. "Crabs in ice water, that's all I ever get". From Massachusetts. 4. "(in response to "What's for supper?) Crabs and ice water". From Massachusetts. 5. "Crabs on ice water! If you don’t give me my money back, I’ll..." From Rhode Island/SE Massachusetts. 6. Print Source: John Irving, "Trying to save Peggy Sneed", Paperback edition, Ballantine Books 1997; ISBN 0-345-40474-2 p. 325: They skirted the truck traffic around Cleveland before Cleveland could get them in its foul grasp; they left behind them the feeling that the morning rush hour was angry it just missed them. "Columbus, South", said a sign, but the driver snorted with scorn and sailed up the west ramp of the Ohio Turnpike. "Crabs in ice water to you, Columbus" he said. When you've come through anight of well-controlled tension and you're underway in the morning with that feeling of a headstart advantage on the rest of the world, even Ohio seems possible -- even Toledo appears to be just a short sprint away. "Lunch in Toledo!" the driver announced, with... From New Hampshire/Massachusetts. 7. http://www.citypaper.com/2000-12-06/mail.html "...that guy probably never had hard crabs and Natty Boh." From Baltimore. (This one is to be taken literally; "Natty Boh" is "National Bohemian" beer. The whole phrase describes someone from out of town.) That's all I found! It seems to me that "crabs and/in ice water" can have two usages: - as an expletive, as in #5 and #6 - "nothing", "[something] worthless" as in #1, #3, #4 #2 is the only one using "hard crabs", and uses the phrase differently. I'd like to know more about that expression. Did I get the meaning right? Is this a regional saying (maybe from Massachusetts)? What are the crabs: crustaceans or crabapples? What's the origin? And what about the "hard crabs" version? -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Thomas Wolf e-mail: t_wolf at angelfire.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 14:59:17 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:59:17 -0500 Subject: Point Guard (1971) In-Reply-To: <12D27679.2D60916F.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 7:51 PM -0500 12/8/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >POINT GUARD (for basketball fans) > > The position of "point guard" was also called "playmaking guard" >or "playmaker" or "passing guard" or "small guard." > The other guard was/is the "shooting guard" or "big guard." > The LOS ANGELES TIMES covered the great John Wooden-coached UCLA >teams and might have "point guard" in the late 1960s. > If they do, Mike Warren (who later was one of the stars on NBC's Hill Street Blues) would be the name to check. He was the 5'11" point guard (as it would be called now, and may have been then) on the three-peat UCLA champions in 1966-67 through 1968-69 that still holds the record for its 88 game winning streak. This was the team led by Lew Alcindor (before he became Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) and also featured an excellent shooting guard, Lucius Allen. But it was Warren who was referred to as "the coach on the floor" (which has always been one of the roles of the point guard) and was frequently mentioned later by Coach Wooden as his favorite player. (I was there at the time, which is how I remember this stuff. I was even in an African history class with Alcindor.) larry From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 9 15:03:03 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:03:03 -0500 Subject: Point Guard; "point" itself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 09:59:17AM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: > > I was even in an African history class with Alcindor.) We're not worthy! We're not worthy! Anyway. There have been some interesting comments on the use of _point guard_ in this thread but I wonder if anyone could comment on one of the original questions, which is the use of _point_ itself? Anything to say about the meaning, or any early cites for the lone _point_? Jesse Sheidlower OED From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 15:29:37 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:29:37 -0500 Subject: for basketball fans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:50 PM -0800 12/8/03, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > >More recently, NBA references by players, coaches, and media, are >>often to the positions as designated by numbers: 1= point guard, 2 = >>shooting guard, 3 = "small" forward, 4 = power forward, 5 = center. >>This allows for evaluations of the form "He's not a true 1 because he >>likes to shoot, he's more of a 1 and a half" or "he's a 2.5". >>larry >I think this renaming has gone a step further. A lot of my students >don't even use the same terms that I do. They say 'point, post, and >wing.' I'm not really sure what a 'wing' in b-ball is, but I think >it's a small forward. or a shooting guard, if these are the only choices >Post is a center. For me, being of a different generation, 'post' >refers to HOW a center plays, not the position itself. When a center >plays post, he would be near the basket often with his back to the >basket, so that he could either screen or do some fancy hook or >turn-around jumper, or maybe pass the ball back out. In some dialects, this is a low post, as distinguished from a high post who plays further out. "Low post" is also the position as well as the player, and as such it can also be called the block. There's also the verb, "to post up", which allows both intransitive and transitive uses and applies to guards (even point guards like Mark Jackson, and certainly to shooting guards like Michael Jordan and now Tracy McGrady or Vince Carter) as well as to bigger players (forwards and centers). The reference is basically to inside, near-the-basket play. A post-up move is an offensive ploy wherein the player positions him (or her) self near the basket, seals off the defensive player, and backs or fronts in for a relatively high percentage shot. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 15:36:11 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:36:11 -0500 Subject: Point Guard; "point" itself? In-Reply-To: <20031209150303.GA7550@panix.com> Message-ID: > >Anyway. There have been some interesting comments on the >use of _point guard_ in this thread but I wonder if anyone >could comment on one of the original questions, which is >the use of _point_ itself? Anything to say about the meaning, >or any early cites for the lone _point_? > I'm assuming, without evidence, that this was a positional reference to an area of the court behind and to the side of the free throw line, where the point guard (not yet so called) positioned himself by default to begin the passing process that eventuated in getting his team a good shot. This would have pre-dated the 24 second clock in the NBA and the corresponding time limit later adopted in college, so that set offenses would have been more frequent and positions on the court more stable. Why that particular area would have been called the point I have no idea. Is there an analogy with hockey, a game about which I know very little? Any Canadians out there? larry From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 9 15:42:12 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:42:12 -0500 Subject: Point Guard; "point" itself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 10:36:11AM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: > > I'm assuming, without evidence, that this was a positional reference > to an area of the court behind and to the side of the free throw > line, where the point guard (not yet so called) positioned himself by > default to begin the passing process that eventuated in getting his > team a good shot. This would have pre-dated the 24 second clock in > the NBA and the corresponding time limit later adopted in college, so > that set offenses would have been more frequent and positions on the > court more stable. Why that particular area would have been called > the point I have no idea. Is there an analogy with hockey, a game > about which I know very little? Any Canadians out there? I'm not Canadian, but the "point" in hockey is either of two positions in front of the opposing team's blue line and near each edge fo the rink, where players on offense are often positioned. This sense dates to at least the 1950s. No idea how it might relate to the basketball sense. Jesse Sheidlower OED From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 15:42:17 2003 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:42:17 -0500 Subject: Point Guard; "point" itself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >> >>Anyway. There have been some interesting comments on the >>use of _point guard_ in this thread but I wonder if anyone >>could comment on one of the original questions, which is >>the use of _point_ itself? Anything to say about the meaning, >>or any early cites for the lone _point_? >> >I'm assuming, without evidence, that this was a positional reference >to an area of the court behind and to the side of the free throw >line, where the point guard (not yet so called) positioned himself by >default to begin the passing process that eventuated in getting his >team a good shot. This would have pre-dated the 24 second clock in >the NBA and the corresponding time limit later adopted in college, so >that set offenses would have been more frequent and positions on the >court more stable. Why that particular area would have been called >the point I have no idea. Is there an analogy with hockey, a game >about which I know very little? Any Canadians out there? Hey, you don't have to be Canadian to know hockey! In hockey, the player on point on a power play (when the other team is penalized), plays just inside the blue line in the offensive zone. His job is to keep the puck inside the zone and to feed it to players nearer the crease (the hockey equivalent of the paint in basketball) who, in the ideal case, will score. The prototypical point player is a defenseman, but occasionally a playmaking winger will take some shifts at point; the downside of this is that frequent defensive breakdowns occur, resulting in a short-handed goal for the other team! "Point" can be used to refer to the role *or* to the position on the ice in which the player filling that role is typically stationed. For a reasonable-looking diagram showing the position and the layout of the ice, see . -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 16:02:53 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:02:53 EST Subject: Antedating of "A.A." Message-ID: I looked through the 4th edition of a book called ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS that was first published in April 1939. On page 163 I find this at the beginning of the second paragraph break: "We know of an A.A. member who was living in a large community. ..." I believe if you check the first edition, you will find the identical wording. This seems to push back the antedating of "A.A." for the organization to 1939. I suspect that early A.A. literature -- possibly even the book itself -- might push the date for the use of "A.A." to designate members (as opposed to the organization) to 1939 as well. In a message dated 11/13/03 7:32:43 AM, fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: > A.A. (OED 1943 for organization, 1941 for members) > > 1940 _Washington Star_ 5 May in _Alcoholics Anonymous 1939-1942_ > Attention was drawn to the movement recently by a dinner that John D. > Rockefeller, jr. ... gave for 60 A.A.s at the Union Club in New York. > > 1940 _Richmond Times-Dispatch_ 18 July in _Alcoholics Anonymous 1939-1942_ > This is a common characteristic of any A.A. meeting. > > Fred Shapiro > From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 16:06:52 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:06:52 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Twelve=20Steps"?= Message-ID: This most likely also appears in the 1939 book ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS; at least, that is where the 12 steps were first published (see pp. 58ff. of the 4th edition). In a message dated 11/13/03 7:38:50 AM, fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: > twelve steps (not in OED) > > 1940 _Richmond Times-Dispatch_ 18 July in _Alcoholics Anonymous 1939-1932_ > 12-Point Program  These are the 12 steps Alcoholics Anonymous recommends > as a program of recovery for the alcoholic. > > 1940 _Chicago Sunday Times_ 1 Dec. in _Alcoholics Anonymous 1939-1942_ > (heading) THE 12 STEPS. > > Fred Shapiro > From stevekl at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 9 16:08:44 2003 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:08:44 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031207115657.00ad2f88@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > I too had a teacher who taught us how to analyze Latin-based words (a > useful tool I wish my grad students had), do library research and write > decent papers (another skill often lacking), and appreciate good > literature. But when she tore down a sign at a bake sale during a > basketball game because it said "Boughten Cookies," she shamed us and our > origins. It was years later, of course, that I learned 'boughten' is a > common Northern participial adjective and felt vindicated. Michigander that I am, I never even knew boughten was considered regional until I became a lexicographer. It had never even crossed my mind that it might be a regionalism. Growing up, there was homemade bread, and there was boughten bread, and that was that. From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 16:47:25 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:47:25 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20squinny?= Message-ID: In a message dated 12/8/03 6:09:05 PM, MAdams1448 at AOL.COM writes: > My girlfriend is from Iowa and she and her parents use "squinny" in just > this way.  I have no evidence from any other state or region, but point out > western PA "grinnie" as a parallel form. > I am from EASTERN Iowa and have never heard of a squinny [meaning a ground squirrel]. I believe that MAdams's contact is from Western Iowa, where of course everybody talks funny, especially parents and lawyers. From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 16:52:31 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:52:31 EST Subject: a miserable word? Message-ID: What the heck is a "miserable word," anyway? Is there a scale of misery for words, or is lexiocographical misery absolute? In a message dated 12/8/03 3:23:58 PM, Vocabula at AOL.COM writes: > It may be a word, but it's a miserable one. > From abigail.zitin at OUP.COM Tue Dec 9 16:55:58 2003 From: abigail.zitin at OUP.COM (Zitin, Abigail) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:55:58 -0500 Subject: Point Guard; "point" itself? Message-ID: > I'm assuming, without evidence, that this was a positional reference > to an area of the court behind and to the side of the free throw > line, where the point guard (not yet so called) positioned himself by > default to begin the passing process that eventuated in getting his > team a good shot. Which makes sense, except that so far I have no evidence for this, and database-searching for "point" is close to impossible. The evidence I do have indicates that "point guard" preceded lone "point", which leads me to assume that the latter was shortened from the former. Two pieces of evidence support this reading, to my mind: (1) the fact that Webster's Sports Dict., in 1976, defines "point" as "a player position" rather than an area of the court (although this is muddied somewhat by the fact that it defines hockey "point" in similar terms) (2) the quotation posted by Fred Shapiro last night, from proquest: 1970 _N.Y. Times_ 3 Dec. 80 "We have no such things as guards, forwards and centers in our 1-3-1 offense," said Tom Wasdin, Jacksonville's new coach, yesterday. "At least we don't call them by those names. We classify our players by the kind of job we want them to do and when we recruit, we look for point guards, wings and postmen. "A point guard is a new name for the old-fashioned playmaker," the Dolphin coach continued. "He's our quarterback, our key ball-handler, our most consistent player and a good outside shot" Nowhere in the article in question does it indicate that the point guard is so called because he occupies an area of the court called "the point". But this is negative evidence, and it only feeds speculation. So: which came first, the point guard or the point? The latter would imply that lone "point" is indeed spatial; the former, that it is functional. I would be most grateful for evidence supporting either of these claims. Abigail Zitin OED From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 16:55:24 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:55:24 EST Subject: recockulous Message-ID: Is the slang use of RECOCKULOUS (meaning 'ridiculolus') widespread, or does one only hear this in the North Carolina Triangle among college students? (Would RECOCKULOUS qualify as a "miserable word"?) From Vocabula at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 17:23:57 2003 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:23:57 EST Subject: a miserable word? Message-ID: Say, Ron, could you more easily understand what a miserable mind is? Perhaps so. Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review www.vocabula.com ______________________ The Vocabula Review A measly $8.95 a year www.vocabula.com ______________________ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 United States Tel: (781) 861-1515 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 17:38:08 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:38:08 -0500 Subject: a miserable word? In-Reply-To: <112.2c56cca9.2d0757cf@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:52 AM -0500 12/9/03, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >What the heck is a "miserable word," anyway? Is there a scale of misery for >words, or is lexiocographical misery absolute? Well, if it concerns a portmanteau item (a category that might stretch to include "McJob"), Humpty Dumpty would point out that Mr. Fiske may wish to consider the lexical form in question to be mimsy, which in his deconstruction of Jabberwocky he derived from "miserable" + "flimsy". ("MIMSY: it's not just for borogoves anymore!") Actually, as I recall my first summer job flipping burgers and hot dogs at a beach-front refreshment stand, the job itself was more miserable + flimsy than any lexical descriptor could be. larry > >In a message dated 12/8/03 3:23:58 PM, Vocabula at AOL.COM writes: > > >> It may be a word, but it's a miserable one. >> From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Tue Dec 9 17:55:58 2003 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:55:58 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re:_squinny?= In-Reply-To: <1e6.150d65a4.2d07569d@aol.com> Message-ID: Must be the Northern/Midland division at work again. (Just kidding--though as a Minnesotan I've never heard the word either.) At 11:47 AM 12/9/2003 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 12/8/03 6:09:05 PM, MAdams1448 at AOL.COM writes: > > > > My girlfriend is from Iowa and she and her parents use "squinny" in just > > this way. I have no evidence from any other state or region, but point > out > > western PA "grinnie" as a parallel form. > > > >I am from EASTERN Iowa and have never heard of a squinny [meaning a ground >squirrel]. I believe that MAdams's contact is from Western Iowa, where of >course >everybody talks funny, especially parents and lawyers. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 18:32:06 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:32:06 EST Subject: Peking Dust (1923); OT: I almost die Message-ID: OT: I ALMOST DIE It was going to be a day of work like any other day. Maybe it would be another 8:30 a.m. to 9:30 p.m. monster like I had last week. Why I do parking tickets and earn nothing at all for research is another story. It snowed in New York City all weekend; they generally didn't issue parking tickets (for street cleaning), but you usually get your "angle parking" and "traffic lane" tickets associated with the snow. I worked in the Bronx, in the building with the permanently barred fire exits. (This was banned in New York 90 years ago after the Triangle factory fire.) I was assigned the room with no air, formerly occupied by my best friend (who was fired this summer). I usually get sick in that room--you'd get sick in any room for 13 hours--and I was getting sick after the first few minutes. Someone came around: "You have to leave now." "Why?" "There's a fire." There's a fire? There are no alarms? There's a fire--pass it on?? The building with barred emergency exits has a fire--with me in it! We all got out. The fire department came. After about ten minutes, we were told to get back in the building. There was no fire--just smoke! The public, however, wasn't allowed back in. Why were we allowed back in but not the public? Surely, someone cares about us, too? We hung around a little while and... THEN THERE WAS AN EXPLOSION! We left the building again. The manhole cover just outside the building--where I had been standing moments before--had burst into flames from a gas explosion. I decided to go home, type this, and do some quiet library work on "point guard." Now, about "growler" that appeared in Safire's column last Sunday. Yes, I've been "growling" that I work in a Triangle Factory workplace for some time. I almost died there today. But before Safire wrote that, he should have spent some time with me this past Thanksgiving. I would have liked to have introduced him to my mother and father, but they both died of horrible diseases. They would never see my name mentioned in his column. Safire could have met my nephew with autism. We were Thanksgiving guests at someone's West End Avenue apartment. My nephew went out the door and broke into other apartments. Before Safire called me a "growler," maybe he could have seen to it that his New York Times kindly published the 1920s "Big Apple" columns I had told him about--something that should have been done twelve years ago. I still wait for that. Going through what I've been through is horrible, and being insulted is worse. Then there's today, when New York City almost killed me! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GRINNY/SQUINNY No "squinny," but here's a "grinny." (See DARE for "grinnie.") 26 August 1930, CHARLESTON DAILY MAIL (Charleston, West Virginia), pg.10, col. 6: Buster started after a grinny that scrambled off a log at their approach. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------PEKING DUST WANDERING IN NORTHERN CHINA by Harry A. Franck New York: The Century Company 1923 Yes, there are still a few Harry Franck books to go through, but I've done most. See "Peking Dust" in the ADS-L archives. Pg. 184: There is that infamous "Peking dust," a wall of glaced fruits enclosing a mound of grated chestnuts of exactly the consistency, though by no means the splendid taste, of sawdust, and doted on, unfortunately, by that member of the family with most influence in the kitchen. From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Tue Dec 9 18:03:39 2003 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:03:39 -0500 Subject: boughten bread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm glad to know the word is still alive and well--you're a lot younger than I am! At 11:08 AM 12/9/2003 -0500, you wrote: >On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > > > I too had a teacher who taught us how to analyze Latin-based words (a > > useful tool I wish my grad students had), do library research and write > > decent papers (another skill often lacking), and appreciate good > > literature. But when she tore down a sign at a bake sale during a > > basketball game because it said "Boughten Cookies," she shamed us and our > > origins. It was years later, of course, that I learned 'boughten' is a > > common Northern participial adjective and felt vindicated. > >Michigander that I am, I never even knew boughten was considered regional >until I became a lexicographer. It had never even crossed my mind that it >might be a regionalism. Growing up, there was homemade bread, and there >was boughten bread, and that was that. From self at TOWSE.COM Tue Dec 9 18:51:37 2003 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:51:37 -0800 Subject: "Spam rage" Message-ID: The phrase was apparently (according to this article ) coined at least by 1996, but is now getting new legs in articles about Charles Booher, the man recently charged with emailing death threats to DM Contact Management of Victoria, Canada, who, he claims, was spamming him with penis enlargement ads. -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 9 18:50:03 2003 From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:50:03 -0800 Subject: Any Tolkien experts out there? Message-ID: Can anyone help this gentleman out? Please respond directly to him. Geoff Nunberg >Hi Dr. Nunberg: >I work for the cable network Tech TV, and we're producing an >upcoming special on the Lord of the Rings --Return of the King >Movie. I'm producing a piece on the languages Tolkien created for >his books, and wondering if you knew much about him or knew of >someone who might. Many thanks for any help you may provide. >Best, > >***************************** >Andy Jordan >Segment Producer >News/Tech TV >650 Townsend Street 5090L >San Francisco, CA 94103 >office: 415.355.4352 >fax: 415.355.4480 >cell: 415.948.6530 >cell2: 415.297.6999 >andrewjordan at techtvcorp.com >techtv.com >techlive.com >**************************************************************************** >ABOUT TECH TV >TechTV is the cable network that showcases the smart, edgy and >unexpected side of technology. By telling stories through the prism >of technology, TechTV intrigues viewers with everything from help >and information to cutting-edge documentaries to outrageous >late-night fun. TechTV viewers are highly interactive and passionate >about engaging in the television experience and log a monthly >average of 1.4 million unique visits to techtv.com. Owned by Vulcan >Inc., TechTV is currently available in 40 million homes in the U.S. >and distributes content to more than 70 countries. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 19:04:24 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 14:04:24 -0500 Subject: Point Guard; "point" itself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Laurence Horn said: >>> >>>Anyway. There have been some interesting comments on the >>>use of _point guard_ in this thread but I wonder if anyone >>>could comment on one of the original questions, which is >>>the use of _point_ itself? Anything to say about the meaning, >>>or any early cites for the lone _point_? >>> >>I'm assuming, without evidence, that this was a positional reference >>to an area of the court behind and to the side of the free throw >>line, where the point guard (not yet so called) positioned himself by >>default to begin the passing process that eventuated in getting his >>team a good shot. This would have pre-dated the 24 second clock in >>the NBA and the corresponding time limit later adopted in college, so >>that set offenses would have been more frequent and positions on the >>court more stable. Why that particular area would have been called >>the point I have no idea. Is there an analogy with hockey, a game >>about which I know very little? Any Canadians out there? > >Hey, you don't have to be Canadian to know hockey! no, but it helps > >In hockey, the player on point on a power play (when the other team >is penalized), plays just inside the blue line in the offensive zone. >His job is to keep the puck inside the zone and to feed it to players >nearer the crease (the hockey equivalent of the paint in basketball) >who, in the ideal case, will score. The prototypical point player is >a defenseman, but occasionally a playmaking winger will take some >shifts at point; the downside of this is that frequent defensive >breakdowns occur, resulting in a short-handed goal for the other >team! "Point" can be used to refer to the role *or* to the position >on the ice in which the player filling that role is typically >stationed. For a reasonable-looking diagram showing the position and >the layout of the ice, see >. Thanks; whatever the actual history, the semantic/referential relationship between the hockey point and the basketball point makes it plausible that the latter could have been derived from the former, which is not to say that it was. larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 19:07:45 2003 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 14:07:45 -0500 Subject: Point Guard; "point" itself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >>Laurence Horn said: >>>> >>>>Anyway. There have been some interesting comments on the >>>>use of _point guard_ in this thread but I wonder if anyone >>>>could comment on one of the original questions, which is >>>>the use of _point_ itself? Anything to say about the meaning, >>>>or any early cites for the lone _point_? >>>> >>>I'm assuming, without evidence, that this was a positional reference >>>to an area of the court behind and to the side of the free throw >>>line, where the point guard (not yet so called) positioned himself by >>>default to begin the passing process that eventuated in getting his >>>team a good shot. This would have pre-dated the 24 second clock in >>>the NBA and the corresponding time limit later adopted in college, so >>>that set offenses would have been more frequent and positions on the >>>court more stable. Why that particular area would have been called >>>the point I have no idea. Is there an analogy with hockey, a game >>>about which I know very little? Any Canadians out there? >> >>Hey, you don't have to be Canadian to know hockey! > >no, but it helps > >> >>In hockey, the player on point on a power play (when the other team >>is penalized), plays just inside the blue line in the offensive zone. >>His job is to keep the puck inside the zone and to feed it to players >>nearer the crease (the hockey equivalent of the paint in basketball) >>who, in the ideal case, will score. The prototypical point player is >>a defenseman, but occasionally a playmaking winger will take some >>shifts at point; the downside of this is that frequent defensive >>breakdowns occur, resulting in a short-handed goal for the other >>team! "Point" can be used to refer to the role *or* to the position >>on the ice in which the player filling that role is typically >>stationed. For a reasonable-looking diagram showing the position and >>the layout of the ice, see >>. > >Thanks; whatever the actual history, the semantic/referential >relationship between the hockey point and the basketball point makes >it plausible that the latter could have been derived from the former, >which is not to say that it was. Well, basketball *was* invented by a Canadian! -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Dec 9 20:00:34 2003 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:00:34 -0800 Subject: a miserable word? In-Reply-To: <200312090852.1atL6A1GE3NZFl40@penguin> Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM >Subject: a miserable word? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >What the heck is a "miserable word," anyway? Is there a scale of misery for >words, or is lexiocographical misery absolute? Perhaps they have a group to go to -- Near us there's a Noah's Bagels Support Group and I had no idea that bagels had issues prior to that. Rima From tcpurnell at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Tue Dec 9 20:07:54 2003 From: tcpurnell at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (THOMAS C PURNELL) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 14:07:54 -0600 Subject: recockulous Message-ID: Ron, (Since I've never figured out how to reply to the group, I'll just send this directly to you.) While in LA this past June, my brother-in-law asked me if RECOCKULOUS was a word. I had never heard of it, but he said one of his friends was using it a lot. I remember this because I've been thinking that it was just some goofy term his friend had made up. --tom. ----- Original Message ----- From: RonButters at AOL.COM Date: Tuesday, December 9, 2003 10:55 am Subject: recockulous > Is the slang use of RECOCKULOUS (meaning 'ridiculolus') > widespread, or does > one only hear this in the North Carolina Triangle among college > students? > (Would RECOCKULOUS qualify as a "miserable word"?) > From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 20:32:45 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:32:45 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20recockulous?= Message-ID: In a message dated 12/9/03 3:19:28 PM, tcpurnell at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU writes: > Ron, > > (Since I've never figured out how to reply to the group, I'll just send this > directly to you.) > > While in LA this past June, my brother-in-law asked me if RECOCKULOUS was a > word. I had never heard of it, but he said one of his friends was using it a > lot. I remember this because I've been thinking that it was just some goofy > term his friend had made up. > > --tom. > Thanks. I'm hoping to hear from Connie Eble and the other experts on slang to see how widespread this is. But if you heard it in LA and I heard it in NC, that indicates a pretty good spread! From jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM Tue Dec 9 21:07:00 2003 From: jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM (James Callan) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:07:00 -0800 Subject: recockulous In-Reply-To: <200312092033.hB9KXFBM010894@drizzle.com> Message-ID: I'm pretty sure Adam Corolla, who cohosted "Loveline" on radio and TV, claims that he coined the word. Basically, if something is so absurd that it goes beyond ridiculous, it's ricockulous. (Or recockulous.) A Loveline-related website gives more details: "Say "ridiculous" on Loveline and Adam will be quick to say "It's what?" The correct response would be "RECOCKULOUS!" Adam invented this word simply replacing the "dic" with "cock." Something that is recockulous is even more extreme than ridiculous. Add it to your vocabulary, your spell checker, spread the word!" http://www.edgetulsa.com/edge_site/loveline.html No word on when he first used the term, but I heard him use it on the radio show at least two or three years ago. Bonus slang term from the same page: behymen. "Behind+hymen=behymen. The behymen is to butt as hymen is to vagina. Get it? If you have lost your behymen you have been done in the butt. Adam often asks callers who are gay or say they have been gay curious or if it pertains to a women's question, if they have lost their behymen." -- James Callan From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Tue Dec 9 21:56:56 2003 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:56:56 -0500 Subject: for basketball fans Message-ID: <> Within athletic jargon, is transitive "defend" used any more with the thing protected as a direct object (e.g., defend the goal)? Has "defend" + (aggressor as direct object) replaced "defend against" in general usage (e.g., The White House today defended Democratic criticism)? Seán Fitzpatrick From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM Wed Dec 10 00:15:41 2003 From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:15:41 -0500 Subject: recockulous Message-ID: A lawyer friend of mine from Western Iowa, recalls using recockulous while in College at USC; they talk funny there too. From jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM Wed Dec 10 00:28:10 2003 From: jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM (James Callan) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:28:10 -0800 Subject: Childfree Message-ID: "Childfree" seems to be a relatively new term for people who have chosen not to have children. "Childless" would be used for people who don't have children but are unable to, while "childfree" describes those who are happy to be non-parents. I was wondering how old "childfree" is. A search of Google groups turns up two uses between 1981 and 1990. The first, in 1985, is probably not being used in the same way: "Speaking as one who as a teenager maintained his parents' pool, I think they're more work than they're worth; others (especially childfree couples) don't want to have every kid in the neighborhood trying to wangle an invitation, or (worse) trying to sneak in." The other, in 1990, is in quotes, and is closer to the current definition: I respect you and your wives decision to remain "childfree." I feel that many couples are doing this nowadays. After that, there's 1 use in 1991, 6 in 1992, 51 in 1993, 66 in 1994, 342 in 1995, and 798 in 1996. At some point that year, the group alt.support.childfree is created, and every year after that shows 319,000 mentions (319,000 seems to be Google's default number for "a lot.") Does anyone know if the word was coined by anyone in particular? Or why its popularity gained so much traction in 1995-6? -- James From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Dec 10 01:53:59 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:53:59 -0600 Subject: a miserable word? (Uh oh) Message-ID: Uh oh. Unless I'm misreading the response below, it answers Ron Butter's question with an insult. But the question about what constitutes a "miserable" word is a very legitimate one. Indeed, someone campaigning against alleged laxness in language should welcome the opportunity to clarify a term of his that is called into question. I've done considerable work on the term "shyster." Now *there's* a miserable word if there ever was one: highly insulting and deriving ultimately from the German vulgar word for excrement (via British criminal slang). And yet, if the word were magically removed from the English language today, our language would be the poorer for it. So the questions remain: Does a scale of goodness or badness exist for the individual words in a language? How does one decide the degree of goodness or badness of any given term? And absent objective criteria in this regard, should the opinion of any one individual on the subject carry more weight than that of anyone else? Gerald Cohen -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Robert Hartwell Fiske Sent: Tue 12/9/2003 11:23 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: a miserable word? Say, Ron, could you more easily understand what a miserable mind is? Perhaps so. Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review www.vocabula.com ______________________ From hqm2011 at NYU.EDU Wed Dec 10 15:01:51 2003 From: hqm2011 at NYU.EDU (Henry Mullish) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:01:51 -0500 Subject: Need some more "transponyms" Message-ID: In the following list of what I hace called "transponyms", the transpositions can occur anywhere in the word, so long as the letters are adjacent to each other.The list currently contains 155 pairs of words: able bale; acne cane; acre care; act cat; add dad; aft fat; ale lea; alter later; am ma; amid maid; amp map; angel angle; any nay; apes apse; apt pat; arid raid; arise raise; arm ram; art rat; asp sap; awn wan; awning warning; awry wary; axel axle; bar bra; bard brad; barn bran; bat tab; beast beats; best bets; beat beta; blot bolt; boast boats; boost boots; brunt burnt; bust buts; calm clam; carp crap; carve crave; cast cats; casual causal; claps clasp; clod cold; clot colt; coast coats; code coed; compiled complied; corps crops; cost cots; crud curd; cups cusp; dairy diary; dart drat; dies ides; discreet discrete; doe ode; does dose; does odes; door odor; ear era; east eats; elan lean; ever veer; evil veil; exist exits; farmer framer; fast fats; feast feats; field filed; filers fliers; files flies; fired fried; fist fits; form from; forth froth; gaol goal; gaps gasp; garb grab; gas sag; gird grid; gore ogre; grist grits; gnu gun; gust guts; hoes hose; infarction infraction; jest jets; just juts; lair liar; lest lets; lair liar; lion loin; lips lisp; lore role; lost lots; mantel mantle; marital martial; mast mats; mien mine; mist mits; most mots; nest nets; no on; noes nose; nuclear unclear; ones noes; opt pot; option potion; orb rob; owe woe; own won; past pats; pate tape; perfect prefect; pest pets; piles plies; ploy poly; polo pool; post pots; quiet quite; rasp raps; rat tar; regarding regrading; retired retried; roes rose; roost roots; rote tone; run urn; rust ruts; sacred scared; salt slat; salve slave; sap spa; silt slit; silver sliver; spilt split; steel stele; sue use; tarp trap; tear tera; there three; tide tied; tier tire; tired tried; tort trot; tow two; trail trial; used sued; vast vats; vest vets; warp wrap; west wets; wist wits; worst worts; wrist writs; I suspect that there are about 200 such pairs of words. So far I have only 155 pairs. Would anyone like to contribute? Henry Mullish ******************************************************** All e-mail to be addressed as: mullish at nyu.edu [Tel #s in Israel]: Henry: 053-846-439 Malka: 066-260-446 [in the U.S.A]: (212)759-0815 ******************************************************** From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Dec 10 15:45:12 2003 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:45:12 EST Subject: Boughten bread Message-ID: "boughten" is in the OED, with a first citation of 1793, from Coleridge of all people "The Commune's villian friendship, And Henriot's boughten succours" It is "used _poet._ for the sake of metre, otherwise only _dial._ and in US in application to purchased as opposed to home-made articles." I don't recall ever having heard "boughten"; the adjective was "store-bought". I must admit I don't recall ever having heard "store-bought" used in conversation, except jocularly, but I must have run across it numerous times in text purporting to show frontier dialog. OED has "store-bought" with a suspiciously late first citation of 1952 (John Steinbeck, _East of Eden_), and a variation not so far mentioned in ADS_L, "store-boughten" with an 1883 first citation. OT: two neologisms found in the local newspaper this week: 1) after the Eagles-Cowboys game, one member of the Eagle's secondary boasted "We covered our asses off" 2) in an article about developers taking over old airfields, someone was quoted as complaining about the developers building "McMansions". Now "mcjobs" is plausible and reasonably obvious in meaning, but what the Mac is a "McMansion"? Note: somebody referred to "mcjobs" as a portmanteau. I would say rather that it is yet another suffix added onto the highly productive stem "mc-" - James A. Landau PS. "Jockey of Norfolk, be not bold For Dickson thy master is boughten sold" which a tin-eared typesetter on the First Folio misrendered as "bought and sold" From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Dec 10 15:59:48 2003 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:59:48 -0000 Subject: McMansion In-Reply-To: <154.29736d7c.2d089988@aol.com> Message-ID: James A. Landau wrote: > 2) in an article about developers taking over old airfields, someone > was quoted as complaining about the developers building "McMansions". > Now "mcjobs" is plausible and reasonably obvious in meaning, but what > the Mac is a "McMansion"? This came up when I was writing about "McJob" recently. In Britain it is usually a derogatory term for a modest new home, the architectural equivalent of the hamburger, but in the US it's a pretentious, over- sized mini-mansion (think pillared portico and gold bathroom taps) that has been squeezed on to an urban building lot. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 16:03:34 2003 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:03:34 -0500 Subject: Boughten bread In-Reply-To: <154.29736d7c.2d089988@aol.com> Message-ID: James A. Landau said: > >OT: two neologisms found in the local newspaper this week: >1) after the Eagles-Cowboys game, one member of the Eagle's secondary boasted >"We covered our asses off" >2) in an article about developers taking over old airfields, someone was >quoted as complaining about the developers building "McMansions". >Now "mcjobs" is >plausible and reasonably obvious in meaning, but what the Mac is a >"McMansion"? This was discussed in a WotY meeting a few years ago. They're "luxury" homes in a cookie-cutter type development. As for "covered our asses off", I don't see what the neologism is. "Cover" has been fairly normal football jargon for a fair number of years. And adding "our asses off" seems like a perfectly normal colloquial intensifier. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 16:19:04 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:19:04 -0500 Subject: Boughten bread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:03 AM -0500 12/10/03, Alice Faber wrote: >James A. Landau said: >> >>OT: two neologisms found in the local newspaper this week: >>1) after the Eagles-Cowboys game, one member of the Eagle's secondary boasted >>"We covered our asses off" >>2) in an article about developers taking over old airfields, someone was >>quoted as complaining about the developers building "McMansions". >>Now "mcjobs" is >>plausible and reasonably obvious in meaning, but what the Mac is a >>"McMansion"? > >This was discussed in a WotY meeting a few years ago. They're >"luxury" homes in a cookie-cutter type development. > >As for "covered our asses off", I don't see what the neologism is. >"Cover" has been fairly normal football jargon for a fair number of >years. And adding "our asses off" seems like a perfectly normal >colloquial intensifier. > I think it's the garden path. "covered our asses" is not a constituent here, but it looks like it should be, and of course its meaning is irrelevant to the intended use, as you note--this is just "to V one's ass off" with V = cover. larry From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM Wed Dec 10 16:24:42 2003 From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 00:24:42 +0800 Subject: Boughten bread In-Reply-To: <200312101606.hBAG6WBb025600@zero.taolodge.com> Message-ID: Born: 1955, Santa Monica, CA "boughten bread" Never heard it. But can understand the construction. fwiw, Russ From colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM Wed Dec 10 16:34:34 2003 From: colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM (David Colburn) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:34:34 -0800 Subject: McMansion Message-ID: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael Quinion > Organization: World Wide Words > Subject: Re: McMansion > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > > This came up when I was writing about "McJob" recently. In Britain it > is usually a derogatory term for a modest new home, the architectural > equivalent of the hamburger, but in the US it's a pretentious, over- > sized mini-mansion (think pillared portico and gold bathroom taps) > that has been squeezed on to an urban building lot. > And it's been around long enough to make it into the Shorter OED, defined as "a modern house built on a large and imposing scale, but regarded as ostentatious and lacking in architectural integrity." From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Dec 10 16:40:58 2003 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:40:58 -0800 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <154.29736d7c.2d089988@aol.com> Message-ID: I don't know what "McMansions" are in other parts of the country, but the term has been around in Oregon for quite awhile to designate the kind of oversized, pretentious house that has sprung up in upscale subdivisions and in rural areas. Typical features are a 3- or 4-stall garage and a pretentious-looking front door with cut glass windows and some kind of grand portico. In subdivisions they mimic California suburbs by taking up nearly all their property and thus crowding together cheek-by-jowl; in rural areas they tend to occupy developments of mini-estates that have taken former farmland out of production or replaced large stands of stately fir trees. For all their pretentious grandiosity, they still manage to look cheap. A great word for a miserable phenomenon. Not that I'm biased or anything. Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:45 AM -0500 "James A. Landau" wrote: > 2) in an article about developers taking over old airfields, someone was > quoted as complaining about the developers building "McMansions". Now > "mcjobs" is plausible and reasonably obvious in meaning, but what the Mac > is a "McMansion"? ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Dec 10 16:44:08 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:44:08 -0500 Subject: Boughten bread Message-ID: "Store-bought" was certainly a familiar term to me, growing up in south-central Kentucky in the 1960s. The counterpart is "home-made." Store-bought has almost passed out of my vocabulary; almost everything is store-bought, so I rarely need a special term to describe store-bought things. It seems unfortunate that the teacher thought it necessary to tear down a sign with a word in dialect. She sounds like a good teacher otherwise. Here's an earlier cite for "store-bought," from our old friends at the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals: "The sheriff had testified that the seven gallons of whisky found by him was homemade and not store-bought whisky." Dirden v. State, 93 Tex.Crim. 324, 247 S.W. 870, 871 (Tex.Crim.App. Jan. 24, 1923). John Baker -----Original Message----- From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:45 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Boughten bread I don't recall ever having heard "boughten"; the adjective was "store-bought". I must admit I don't recall ever having heard "store-bought" used in conversation, except jocularly, but I must have run across it numerous times in text purporting to show frontier dialog. OED has "store-bought" with a suspiciously late first citation of 1952 (John Steinbeck, _East of Eden_), and a variation not so far mentioned in ADS_L, "store-boughten" with an 1883 first citation. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Dec 10 16:46:14 2003 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:46:14 -0500 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <1659612503.1071045658@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: Does every region have ? Bethany From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Dec 10 16:48:17 2003 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:48:17 -0500 Subject: Boughten bread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Baker, John wrote: >It seems unfortunate that the teacher thought it necessary to tear down a sign with a word in dialect. She sounds like a good teacher otherwise. One of my treasured possesions is an aging, now-yellow office sign, "Dialect Spoke Here," made for me by a (bilingual) departmental sec'y at another university. Bethany From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Dec 10 16:54:09 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:54:09 -0500 Subject: McMansion In-Reply-To: <003501c3bf3b$80f32560$6afc1fcc@ibmaa0051d> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 08:34:34AM -0800, David Colburn wrote: > > And it's been around long enough to make it into the Shorter OED, defined as > "a modern house built on a large and imposing scale, but regarded as > ostentatious and lacking in architectural integrity." And the Longer OED, with the same definition. Jesse Sheidlower Longer OED From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Dec 10 17:02:42 2003 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:02:42 -0800 Subject: Boughten bread In-Reply-To: <154.29736d7c.2d089988@aol.com> Message-ID: I never heard "boughten" alone, but "store-bought" has always been used in our family to designate something not homemade. I dimly remember starting out with "store-boughten" way back in my childhood in S. California and/or Oregon (late 40s-early 50s), and switching to "store-bought" in response to a parental correction. Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:45 AM -0500 "James A. Landau" wrote: > OED has "store-bought" with a suspiciously late first citation of 1952 > (John Steinbeck, _East of Eden_), and a variation not so far mentioned in > ADS_L, "store-boughten" with an 1883 first citation. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Dec 10 17:09:20 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:09:20 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20recockulous?= Message-ID: In a message dated 12/9/03 7:16:18 PM, MAdams1448 at AOL.COM writes: > A lawyer friend of mine from Western Iowa, recalls using recockulous while > in College at USC; they talk funny there too. > I bet this word started in Southern California (no doubt the geographical source of massive amounts of lexicographical and cultural misery)--I assume that MAdams' use of "USC" is intended to indicate The University of Southern California and not The University of South Carolina, even though the team name of the latter is "Gamecocks" (and "Go Cocks!" is a popoular cheer). From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 17:26:50 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:26:50 -0500 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <1659612503.1071045658@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > grand portico. In subdivisions they mimic California suburbs by taking up > nearly all their property and thus crowding together cheek-by-jowl; in > rural areas they tend to occupy developments of mini-estates that have > taken former farmland out of production or replaced large stands of stately > fir trees. For all their pretentious grandiosity, they still manage to > look cheap. A great word for a miserable phenomenon. I think the "Mc" in McMansion must be inspired by the cookie-cutter nature of the houses, since grandiosity or size are not particularly associated with McDonald's. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Dec 10 17:29:36 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:29:36 EST Subject: SHYSTER, MCJOB, etc. Message-ID: Thanks, Gerald, for a serious, sober response to a serious question. Despite its etymology, I've never treated SHYSTER as a taboo word, but then my personal tastes tend to run against the acknowledgment of taboo constraints, and if what you are saying is that many normal, sane people will actually be offended by the very use of SHYSTER, then I'll file that information away in my connotations bank and try to be judicious. As for the mysterious putative "miserableness" of "McJob," however, I can't imagine that anyone would think of it as a taboo word. In fact, I can't imagine that anyone would find it objectionable on any grounds (except maybe newness). And, as you note, there has been no adult communication here about such grounds thus far. As for the legal huffing and puffing of McDonalds concerning their apparently having registered "McJob" as a trademark: I'm no lawyer, but from what I do know about US trademark law I find it difficult to believe that they can really be serious about taking legal action against the dictionary maker. For one thing, a dictionary maker who enters "McJob" in a dictionary is not using it as a trademark, they are merely reporting on the results of their scientific investigations. The use of the term in the media in a nontrademark way is so overwhelmingly numerous that any lexicographer would have to agree that the dictionary maker's entry is scientifically correct. Often dictionary makers do publish notice of the registration of a trademark as a part of their definitions, but they are not legally required to do so, as far as I know, and as someone else noted a week or so ago, McDonalds in this case would not find such a notice very flattering. I suspect that the main reason McDonalds made threatening noises about McJob is just that they are forced to give the appearance of vigorously defending their trademark. That is to say, they have to put their objections to the dictionary entry on the record--otherwise, their lack of action could be used against them in court in some unrelated case. As many ADS-L-ers know, McDonalds claims not just "McJobs," "McNuggets," etc., but at least one court has ruled that they actually own the "Mc-" prefix. Their victory in that case (in which a motel chain was not allowed to use the name "McSleep") was somewhat controversial at the time (see Lentine and Shuy's excellent article on the case in AMERICAN SPEECH several years ago). I suspect that McDonalds is rather sensitive about anything that starts with "Mc-". In a message dated 12/9/03 8:54:13 PM, gcohen at UMR.EDU writes: > Uh oh. Unless I'm misreading the response below, it answers Ron Butter's > question with an insult. But the question about what constitutes a "miserable" > word is a very legitimate one. Indeed, someone campaigning against alleged > laxness in language should welcome the opportunity to clarify a term of his > that is called into question. > >     I've done considerable work on the term "shyster." Now *there's* a > miserable word if there ever was one: highly insulting and deriving  ultimately > from the German vulgar word for excrement (via British criminal slang).  And > yet, if the word were magically removed from the English language today, our > language would be the poorer for it. > >      So the questions remain: Does a scale of goodness or badness exist for > the individual words in a language? How does one decide the degree of > goodness or badness of any given term? And absent objective criteria in this regard, > should the opinion of any one individual on the subject carry more weight > than that of anyone else? > > Gerald Cohen > From self at TOWSE.COM Wed Dec 10 17:36:49 2003 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:36:49 -0800 Subject: recockulous In-Reply-To: <5D6D0DC2.09E104BB.0B0EF510@aol.com> Message-ID: Michael Adams wrote: > A lawyer friend of mine from Western Iowa, recalls using recockulous while in College at USC; they talk funny there too. Very well could be. The etymology as given in the Urban Dictionary states, "Word coined by 'Loveline' radio show host Adam Carolla after show producers recieved complaints that he was using the word "Dick" on the air. Producers suggested he use the word "Cock" instead. Carolla, mockingly concerned about overemphasizing the "dic" syllable in ridiculous, began saying "Recockulous" instead." I'd imagine someone else could've come up with that substitution in another place, another time. Carolla, though, seems to have popularized the use. -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Dec 10 17:32:42 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:32:42 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20McMansions=20(was:=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Boughten=20bread)?= Message-ID: In a message dated 12/10/03 12:27:37 PM, fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: > I think the "Mc" in McMansion must be inspired by the cookie-cutter nature > of the houses, since grandiosity or size are not particularly associated > with McDonald's. > But perhaps just as fast food could be thought of as a kind of a cheap imitation of "real" food, so are small houses with pillars and porticos a kind of cheap imitation of "real" mansions. This would work for the US usage, at any rate. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 17:35:31 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:35:31 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20McMansions=20(was:=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Boughten=20bread)?= In-Reply-To: <200312101733.hBAHX3L18534@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > But perhaps just as fast food could be thought of as a kind of a cheap > imitation of "real" food, so are small houses with pillars and porticos a kind of > cheap imitation of "real" mansions. This would work for the US usage, at any > rate. You're right, this is a better explanation than the one I proferred. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From self at TOWSE.COM Wed Dec 10 17:44:30 2003 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:44:30 -0800 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <2f.42c6ebea.2d08b2ba@aol.com> Message-ID: RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 12/10/03 12:27:37 PM, fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: >>I think the "Mc" in McMansion must be inspired by the cookie-cutter nature >>of the houses, since grandiosity or size are not particularly associated >>with McDonald's. > But perhaps just as fast food could be thought of as a kind of a cheap > imitation of "real" food, so are small houses with pillars and porticos a kind of > cheap imitation of "real" mansions. This would work for the US usage, at any > rate. Out here in the heart of Silicon Valley, our Mediterranean-style McMansions tend to have Taco Bell tile roofs. -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Dec 10 17:45:10 2003 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:45:10 -0800 Subject: SHYSTER, MCJOB, etc. In-Reply-To: <24.4b3d99fa.2d08b200@aol.com> Message-ID: Oh, well, I never liked "McGraw" very much, anyway. And hotel clerks and suchlike in Europe, ever sensitive to the nuances of U.S. copyright law, have frequently called me "Mr. Graw." Guess I could do that, too. Or maybe I'll just go for "Smith" (and hope the Smith Bros. won't sue me). Peter (formerly Mc)G. --On Wednesday, December 10, 2003 12:29 PM -0500 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > at least one court has ruled that > they actually own the "Mc-" prefix. Their victory in that case (in which > a motel chain was not allowed to use the name "McSleep") was somewhat > controversial at the time (see Lentine and Shuy's excellent article on > the case in AMERICAN SPEECH several years ago). I suspect that McDonalds > is rather sensitive about anything that starts with "Mc-". ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From remlingk at GVSU.EDU Wed Dec 10 18:01:01 2003 From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:01:01 -0500 Subject: History of "Spanglish" in the US Message-ID: Can anyone suggest sources on the history of "Spanglish" in the US? I'm particularly looking for under-grad level texts (articles, books, book chapters) for a History of English course. Thanks, Kate ____________________ Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Department of English Grand Valley State University 1 Campus Drive Allendale, MI 49401 USA remlingk at gvsu.edu tel: 616-331-3122 fax: 616-331-3430 From mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 10 18:12:31 2003 From: mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:12:31 -0500 Subject: a miserable word? (Uh oh) In-Reply-To: <200312100502.hBA52wk8008840@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Gerald Cohen wrote: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:53:59 -0600 From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" Subject: Re: a miserable word? (Uh oh) VWggb2guIFVubGVzcyBJJ20gbWlzcmVhZGluZyB0aGUgcmVzcG9uc2UgYmVsb3csIGl0IGFuc3dl cnMgUm9uIEJ1dHRlcidzIHF1ZXN0aW9uIHdpdGggYW4gaW5zdWx0LiBCdXQgdGhlIHF1ZXN0aW9u IGFib3V0IHdoYXQgY29uc3RpdHV0ZXMgYSAibWlzZXJhYmxlIiB3b3JkIGlzIGEgdmVyeSBsZWdp dGltYXRlIG9uZS4gSW5kZWVkLCBzb21lb25lIGNhbXBhaWduaW5nIGFnYWluc3QgYWxsZWdlZCBs [and so on] Howzat again? On second thought, please not "again"; just ... Wha'? -- Mark A. Mandel From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 18:31:13 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:31:13 -0500 Subject: McMansion et al. In-Reply-To: <20031210165409.GA25409@panix.com> Message-ID: quoth Jesse Sheidlower: >On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 08:34:34AM -0800, David Colburn wrote: >> >> And it's been around long enough to make it into the Shorter OED, defined as >> "a modern house built on a large and imposing scale, but regarded as >> ostentatious and lacking in architectural integrity." > >And the Longer OED, with the same definition. > Nice retronym! A couple of slightly newer WOTY candidates: a single page of a novel (Lawrence Block's _Small Town_, 2003, p. 78, contains the following items: pigeon-fucker sponsee Lesbian Bed Death cruisier [comparative adjective] --of these, only the first appears to be truly new, assuming it wasn't invented by Block. The others clearly weren't. _sponsee_ (see below) has 2,270 google hits and 14 "major papers" Nexis hits, typically primed by _sponsor_, and has been around at least since 1987; Safire mentioned it in a column in 1991. _Lesbian Bed Death_ has 201,000 [!] google hits and 9 Nexis hits dating back to 1995. As for _cruisier_ ([re Christopher St. in Greenwich Village:] "at this hour on this nice a day it would be a little bit cruisier than he could stand"), it was a bit hard to pin down because of all the false hits ("Toyota Land Cruisiers" seem to be especially hot items), but I did find one from an article on Provincetown ("it was cruisier than other bars in town"), and of course it involves productive morphology, which makes the "new"ness somewhat arbitrary. What of _pigeon-fucker_, you ask? Well, here's the context, and the only occurrence of this form that I could locate (yes, there were 11 google hits but all seem to involve the compositional meaning alluded to in the parenthetical from the text below, not the idiomatic sense defined just above): ========== "The conventional wisdom in AA was that one ought to choose a sponsor of one's own sex, to keep sexual tension from undermining the relationship. That was fine for straights, but it wasn't that simple in gay AA, where the term _pigeon-fucker_ had been coined to label sponsors who took sexual advantage of sponsees. (He'd heard the term at his first meeting, and thought it was some kinky practice he'd somehow missed out on.)" =========== Maybe not the sort of technical term whose merits we want to evaluate in Boston, but there it is. Suitable, perhaps, for Jesse's catalogue, if nothing else. larry From sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM Wed Dec 10 18:35:13 2003 From: sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM (Chuck Borsos) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:35:13 GMT Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) Message-ID: Here in the Santa Cruz area there is a vegetarian restaurant called "Dharma's". Originally, some twenty years ago or so, it had been named "McDharma's", until Ronald McDonald & Co. took umbrage and sued. Being a commercial application, perhaps they had a legally justifiable defense of trademark, but not a good sense of humor. Chuck Borsos Santa Cruz, CA From patty at CRUZIO.COM Wed Dec 10 18:48:48 2003 From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:48:48 -0800 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <200312101835.hBAIZCXM059486@mail.cruzio.com> Message-ID: Hey - you're in Santa Cruz? So am I - cool. Are you a linguist? I've been here for years and have never eaten at McDharma's/Dharma's but I sure know this story :) Patty At 06:35 PM 12/10/03 +0000, you wrote: >Here in the Santa Cruz area there is a vegetarian restaurant called >"Dharma's". Originally, some twenty years ago or so, it had been named >"McDharma's", until Ronald McDonald & Co. took umbrage and sued. >Being a commercial application, perhaps they had a legally justifiable >defense of trademark, but not a good sense of humor. > >Chuck Borsos >Santa Cruz, CA From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Dec 10 19:06:52 2003 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:06:52 -0500 Subject: History of "Spanglish" in the US In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ilan Stavans just published a book on the subject, but he's not a linguist -- I believe he's a social historian. I haven't read it yet, but it sounded fairly accessible and interesting. On 10 Dec 2003, at 13:01, Kathryn Remlinger wrote: > Can anyone suggest sources on the history of "Spanglish" in the US? I'm > particularly looking for under-grad level texts (articles, books, book > chapters) for a History of English course. > > Thanks, > Kate > > ____________________ > Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of English: Linguistics > Department of English > Grand Valley State University > 1 Campus Drive > Allendale, MI 49401 USA > remlingk at gvsu.edu > tel: 616-331-3122 > fax: 616-331-3430 Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Dec 10 19:45:14 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:45:14 -0500 Subject: SHYSTER, MCJOB, etc. Message-ID: For another extension of the Mc-- prefix, here's an online article, from New Zealand no less, talking about McBrothels: >>A morals watchdog group is warning that a loophole in new sex laws could see chains of "McBrothels" opening up around the country. The Society for the Promotion of Community Standards said the loophole would allow chains of brothels to set up without officialdom knowing where they were. Under the Prostitution Reform Act an operator of a brothel has to be certified by July 2004. However, application forms require just the operator's name, date of birth, gender, an authenticated photograph, a photocopy of a form of official identification and an address where the certificate - issued by the Auckland District Court - and any related correspondence can be sent. "What it means is that anyone over 18 can set up a chain of McBrothels around the country and there's no requirement for anyone to say where these sexual services are being provided," society secretary David Lane said. "A service address could be a post office box in Invercargill or on the Chatham Islands. That's got huge implications." << From http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2754039a11,00.html. John Baker From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Dec 10 20:23:47 2003 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:23:47 -0800 Subject: Boughten bread Message-ID: I have been interested in this form for a long time. I think this form is much more common than many people realize. I often hear people, particularly students, say 'boughten' and I make a mental note. Several days later I'll ask the student or entire class whether they have heard it. I find it most curious when someone who said 'boughten' two days earlier claims never to have heard it (Maybe they just don't listen to what they say). I also periodically hear something like this "I have boughten a new cd player." fritz >>> pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU 12/10/03 09:02AM >>> I never heard "boughten" alone, but "store-bought" has always been used in our family to designate something not homemade. I dimly remember starting out with "store-boughten" way back in my childhood in S. California and/or Oregon (late 40s-early 50s), and switching to "store-bought" in response to a parental correction. Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:45 AM -0500 "James A. Landau" wrote: > OED has "store-bought" with a suspiciously late first citation of 1952 > (John Steinbeck, _East of Eden_), and a variation not so far mentioned in > ADS_L, "store-boughten" with an 1883 first citation. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Dec 10 20:26:01 2003 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:26:01 -0500 Subject: History of "Spanglish" in the US Message-ID: Spanglish: the making of a new American language, by Ilan Stavans, New York: Rayo, c2003. 274 p. Received here in late October. The subject label identifies it as dealing with "Mexican Americans -- Language" & "Hispanic Americans -- Language". GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joanne M. Despres" Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 2:06 pm Subject: Re: History of "Spanglish" in the US > Ilan Stavans just published a book on the subject, but he's not a > linguist -- I believe he's a social historian. I haven't read it > yet, but > it sounded fairly accessible and interesting. > > > > On 10 Dec 2003, at 13:01, Kathryn Remlinger wrote: > > > Can anyone suggest sources on the history of "Spanglish" in the > US? I'm > > particularly looking for under-grad level texts (articles, > books, book > > chapters) for a History of English course. > > > > Thanks, > > Kate > > > > ____________________ > > Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor of English: Linguistics > > Department of English > > Grand Valley State University > > 1 Campus Drive > > Allendale, MI 49401 USA > > remlingk at gvsu.edu > > tel: 616-331-3122 > > fax: 616-331-3430 > > > Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor > Merriam-Webster, Inc. > jdespres at merriam-webster.com > http://www.merriam-webster.com > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Dec 10 20:30:13 2003 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:30:13 -0500 Subject: Any Tolkien experts out there? Message-ID: Probably this is to much in the lit-crit bullshit vein for the purpose, but. . . . Splintered light: logos and language in Tolkien's world, by Verlyn Flieger. 2nd ed. Kent, Ohio : Kent State University Press, c2002. The only book in Bobst on the subject of Tolkien language. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Geoffrey Nunberg Date: Tuesday, December 9, 2003 1:50 pm Subject: Any Tolkien experts out there? > Can anyone help this gentleman out? Please respond directly to him. > > Geoff Nunberg > > >Hi Dr. Nunberg: > >I work for the cable network Tech TV, and we're producing an > >upcoming special on the Lord of the Rings --Return of the King > >Movie. I'm producing a piece on the languages Tolkien created for > >his books, and wondering if you knew much about him or knew of > >someone who might. Many thanks for any help you may provide. > >Best, > > > >***************************** > >Andy Jordan > >Segment Producer > >News/Tech TV > >650 Townsend Street 5090L > >San Francisco, CA 94103 > >office: 415.355.4352 > >fax: 415.355.4480 > >cell: 415.948.6530 > >cell2: 415.297.6999 > >andrewjordan at techtvcorp.com > >techtv.com > >techlive.com > >**************************************************************************** > >ABOUT TECH TV > >TechTV is the cable network that showcases the smart, edgy and > >unexpected side of technology. By telling stories through the prism > >of technology, TechTV intrigues viewers with everything from help > >and information to cutting-edge documentaries to outrageous > >late-night fun. TechTV viewers are highly interactive and passionate > >about engaging in the television experience and log a monthly > >average of 1.4 million unique visits to techtv.com. Owned by Vulcan > >Inc., TechTV is currently available in 40 million homes in the U.S. > >and distributes content to more than 70 countries. > From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Wed Dec 10 19:28:30 2003 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:28:30 -0500 Subject: McMansion Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:59:48 -0000 Michael Quinion writes: > but in the US it's a pretentious, > over- > sized mini-mansion (think pillared portico and gold bathroom taps) > that has been squeezed on to an urban building lot. Around here that is called "contractor Palladian." D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Dec 10 23:09:13 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:09:13 -0500 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <200312101835.hBAIZCXM059486@mail.cruzio.com> Message-ID: > Here in the Santa Cruz area there is a vegetarian restaurant called > "Dharma's". Originally, some twenty years ago or so, it had been named > "McDharma's", until Ronald McDonald & Co. took umbrage and sued. > Being a commercial application, perhaps they had a legally justifiable > defense of trademark, but not a good sense of humor. McDonald's would seem to be justified in this one. Both are restaurants (or McDonald's at least has pretenses at being one). The chief purpose of trademark law is to distinguish one product from another, so businesses in the same industry are the most vulnerable to trademark infringement. The decision in the "McSleep" suit is questionable. AFAIK, McDonald's is not in the hotel business. Suing a dictionary for including "McJob" would simply be silly and probably laughed out of court. Not to say that McDonald's might not try... From alcockg at SRICRM.COM Wed Dec 10 23:28:51 2003 From: alcockg at SRICRM.COM (Gwyn Alcock) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:28:51 -0800 Subject: recockulous In-Reply-To: <200312101733.MAA14389@dauntless.cnchost.com> Message-ID: The show "Loveline" began as a short late-night radio segment on a Los Angeles rock station, KROQ. The show is now syndicated, and it had a few years' run as a TV show on MTV, I think. It's not surprising that somebody from U. of Southern California would be using words coined or popularized on the show. Gwyn Alcock Redlands, CA (KROQ listener since 1979) -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Towse Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 9:37 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: recockulous Michael Adams wrote: > A lawyer friend of mine from Western Iowa, recalls using recockulous while in College at USC; they talk funny there too. Very well could be. The etymology as given in the Urban Dictionary states, "Word coined by 'Loveline' radio show host Adam Carolla after show producers recieved complaints that he was using the word "Dick" on the air. Producers suggested he use the word "Cock" instead. Carolla, mockingly concerned about overemphasizing the "dic" syllable in ridiculous, began saying "Recockulous" instead." I'd imagine someone else could've come up with that substitution in another place, another time. Carolla, though, seems to have popularized the use. -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Dec 10 23:52:27 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:52:27 -0500 Subject: Boughten bread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Boughten" is cited in Atwood's _Survey of Verb Forms in the Eastern U.S._ as an older, "less-cultured" form but common in New England, less common in the Middle and South Atlantic states. He said "no cultured informant" in the MAS or SAS used it. Shades of my South Dakota-born but "cultured" h.s. English teacher. In fact, Atwood says Raven McDavid would hear it spontaneously used, but when he questioned people about it they denied using it--just like Fritz's class. But both cited it in adjectival use only, not as the participial verb; I've never heard the latter either. It's a kind of regularizing of the irregular though, isn't it? "Store-bought" strikes me as more Western, as Peter and Jim note. Beverly At 12:23 PM 12/10/2003 -0800, you wrote: >I have been interested in this form for a long time. I think this form is >much more common than many people realize. I often hear people, >particularly students, say 'boughten' and I make a mental note. Several >days later I'll ask the student or entire class whether they have heard >it. I find it most curious when someone who said 'boughten' two days >earlier claims never to have heard it (Maybe they just don't listen to >what they say). I also periodically hear something like this "I have >boughten a new cd player." >fritz > > >>> pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU 12/10/03 09:02AM >>> >I never heard "boughten" alone, but "store-bought" has always been used in >our family to designate something not homemade. I dimly remember starting >out with "store-boughten" way back in my childhood in S. California and/or >Oregon (late 40s-early 50s), and switching to "store-bought" in response to >a parental correction. > >Peter Mc. > >--On Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:45 AM -0500 "James A. Landau" > wrote: > > > OED has "store-bought" with a suspiciously late first citation of 1952 > > (John Steinbeck, _East of Eden_), and a variation not so far mentioned in > > ADS_L, "store-boughten" with an 1883 first citation. > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Dec 10 23:56:56 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:56:56 -0500 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <1659612503.1071045658@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: "Build thee more stately McMansions, o my soul,/ As the swift seasons roll." At 08:40 AM 12/10/2003 -0800, you wrote: >I don't know what "McMansions" are in other parts of the country, but the >term has been around in Oregon for quite awhile to designate the kind of >oversized, pretentious house that has sprung up in upscale subdivisions and >in rural areas. Typical features are a 3- or 4-stall garage and a >pretentious-looking front door with cut glass windows and some kind of >grand portico. In subdivisions they mimic California suburbs by taking up >nearly all their property and thus crowding together cheek-by-jowl; in >rural areas they tend to occupy developments of mini-estates that have >taken former farmland out of production or replaced large stands of stately >fir trees. For all their pretentious grandiosity, they still manage to >look cheap. A great word for a miserable phenomenon. > >Not that I'm biased or anything. > >Peter Mc. > >--On Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:45 AM -0500 "James A. Landau" > wrote: > >>2) in an article about developers taking over old airfields, someone was >>quoted as complaining about the developers building "McMansions". Now >>"mcjobs" is plausible and reasonably obvious in meaning, but what the Mac >>is a "McMansion"? > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Dec 10 23:55:31 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:55:31 -0500 Subject: Boughten bread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:48 AM 12/10/2003 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Baker, John wrote: > > >It seems unfortunate that the teacher thought it necessary to tear down >a sign with a word in dialect. She sounds like a good teacher otherwise. > >One of my treasured possesions is an aging, now-yellow office sign, >"Dialect Spoke Here," made for me by a (bilingual) departmental sec'y at >another university. > >Bethany That's classic! I'm going to put it on my door. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Dec 11 00:13:17 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:13:17 -0500 Subject: History of "Spanglish" in the US In-Reply-To: <2081eda2081993.20819932081eda@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: I've heard Stavans interviewed on NPR, and he has a very sound take on Spanglish, even if he isn't a linguist. But there are linguists who've written on it too, including Ana Celia Zentella. Check MLA and LLBA bibliographic search engines. At 03:26 PM 12/10/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Spanglish: the making of a new American language, by Ilan Stavans, New >York: Rayo, c2003. 274 p. Received here in late October. The subject >label identifies it as dealing with "Mexican Americans -- Language" & >"Hispanic Americans -- Language". > >GAT > >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern >Univ. Pr., 1998. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joanne M. Despres" >Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 2:06 pm >Subject: Re: History of "Spanglish" in the US > > > Ilan Stavans just published a book on the subject, but he's not a > > linguist -- I believe he's a social historian. I haven't read it > > yet, but > > it sounded fairly accessible and interesting. > > > > > > > > On 10 Dec 2003, at 13:01, Kathryn Remlinger wrote: > > > > > Can anyone suggest sources on the history of "Spanglish" in the > > US? I'm > > > particularly looking for under-grad level texts (articles, > > books, book > > > chapters) for a History of English course. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Kate > > > > > > ____________________ > > > Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. > > > Associate Professor of English: Linguistics > > > Department of English > > > Grand Valley State University > > > 1 Campus Drive > > > Allendale, MI 49401 USA > > > remlingk at gvsu.edu > > > tel: 616-331-3122 > > > fax: 616-331-3430 > > > > > > Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor > > Merriam-Webster, Inc. > > jdespres at merriam-webster.com > > http://www.merriam-webster.com > > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Dec 11 00:00:43 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:00:43 -0500 Subject: Boughten bread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oops--I said earlier that "store-bought" seemed Western to me, but of course I've heard it around SE Ohio too, so it's likely South Midland (and Southern?) in origin. I don't recall ever hearing it in Minnesota though, at least when I was young. At 11:44 AM 12/10/2003 -0500, you wrote: > "Store-bought" was certainly a familiar term to me, growing up in > south-central Kentucky in the 1960s. The counterpart is > "home-made." Store-bought has almost passed out of my vocabulary; almost > everything is store-bought, so I rarely need a special term to describe > store-bought things. > > It seems unfortunate that the teacher thought it necessary to > tear down a sign with a word in dialect. She sounds like a good teacher > otherwise. > > Here's an earlier cite for "store-bought," from our old friends > at the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals: "The sheriff had testified that > the seven gallons of whisky found by him was homemade and not > store-bought whisky." Dirden v. State, 93 Tex.Crim. 324, 247 S.W. 870, > 871 (Tex.Crim.App. Jan. 24, 1923). > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM] >Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:45 AM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Boughten bread > > >I don't recall ever having heard "boughten"; the adjective was >"store-bought". I must admit I don't recall ever having heard >"store-bought" used in >conversation, except jocularly, but I must have run across it numerous >times in text >purporting to show frontier dialog. > >OED has "store-bought" with a suspiciously late first citation of 1952 (John >Steinbeck, _East of Eden_), and a variation not so far mentioned in ADS_L, >"store-boughten" with an 1883 first citation. From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Dec 11 00:32:05 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:32:05 EST Subject: Why McSleep lost Message-ID: In a message dated 12/10/03 6:09:57 PM, dave at WILTON.NET writes: > The decision in the "McSleep" suit is questionable. AFAIK, McDonald's is > not > in the hotel business. > Again, I am not a lawyer, and I hope Bethany Dumas will correct me where I am wrong here: My memory is that McDonald's argued that hotels are so often in the food business that the public might quite naturally believe that McDonald's had gone into the hotel business if McSleep were allowed to prevail. In addition, there is something in trademark law called "dilution," a basis for claiming infringement if a very famous mark is used by someone else as a trademark in such a way that the owner of the mark might well suffer loss. I'm not totally sure how this works, but I think it might be grounds for, say, preventing a chain of second-hand automobile stores (not owned by Disney) from calling themselves "Mickey Mouse" Auto SuperStores. "Mickey Mouse" is not a trademark associated (as of today) with automobile sales. However, M.M. is so famous that the public might reasonably be led to believe that Disney was going into the car business. And even if the public did not generally believe this, the mark is so famous that Disney could claim that their lingjuistic property was nonetheless being misappropriated and "diluted." By the way (as I recall) the McSleep people argued that McDonald's had no right to "Mc-" in and of itself because it is, they said, a generic term for cheap stuff. They lost, despite impressive evidence presented in court by Roger Shuy himself. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Dec 11 02:28:10 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:28:10 -0600 Subject: 1) OT: Barry's close call, 2) William Safire's column Message-ID: Here are a few thoughts about Barry's close call (Dec. 9 message): 1) I'm appalled at the fire-trap conditions in which he must work, as well as the insensitivity of his superior in having the employees return to a possibly unsafe situation (the public was still excluded). 2) But judging from Barry's account, that insensitivity might have saved his life, since it brought him into the building and away from the manhole where the gas explosion occurred. 3) Re: William Safire's column, I'd prefer to see Barry referred to as a "peripatetic etymologist" rather than a "growling" one. "Word sleuth" would also be entirely accurate. Still, after the hiatus of several years in which Barry evidently became a non-person for Safire (Barry, reread the message you sent from Roumania), Safire's renewed mention of Barry's work is both welcome and remarkable. It bespeaks a magnanimous spirit willing to overlook some very sharp criticism and focus on Barry's contribution to a given topic. Barry's research is truly extraordinary. 4) Safire's column and ads-l are in a symbiotic relationship. Our research benefits the column, while Safire provides wonderful publicity to both our field and some of its members. Several ads-l members sent messages of congratulations to Barry and Sam for being mentioned in last week's column--well deserved in both cases. As an organization we owe Mr. Safire and his assistant Kathleen Miller a debt of gratitude for their interest in our field, and on behalf of ads-l I now thank them for their efforts. With best wishes all the way around, Gerald Cohen From pds at VISI.COM Thu Dec 11 01:44:15 2003 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:44:15 -0600 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <20031210164617.833EE49DC@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: At 12/10/2003 11:46 AM -0500, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: >Does every region have ? The term I hear in MN is 'starter castle'. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Dec 11 03:07:26 2003 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:07:26 -0500 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.1.20031210194324.01af0970@pop.visi.com> Message-ID: Tom Kysilko wrote: >At 12/10/2003 11:46 AM -0500, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: >>Does every region have ? > >The term I hear in MN is 'starter castle'. > At one of the recent LSA meetings, somebody gave a paper in an ADS session on the linguistic identity of the UP of Michigan. I think she used the term 'starter castle' as well, in her description of the changing face of the UP. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 11 03:26:58 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:26:58 EST Subject: Colorado Historic Newspaper Collection; Point Man Pressure (1970) Message-ID: OT: I worked in Manhattan today. The Bronx Help Center was closed today. I'm scheduled to return to the Bronx on Friday. (No thonx?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- COLORADO HISTORIC NEWSPAPER COLLECTION One for Fred Shapiro's little list of electronic databases. When fin ished, Colorado might have "I'm from Missouri" in this period. This project is using the same Olive software as the Brooklyn Eagle, the Missouri Historical Newspapers Project, and the British National Library Newspapers Project. http://www.cdpheritage.org/newspapers/news_2003-10-23.html Denver, CO, October 22, 2003 – The University of Denver Penrose Library, Colorado Digitization Program (CDP), Colorado State Library and Colorado Historical Society received a 2003 Institute of Museum and Library Services (IMLS) National Leadership grant for $249,232 to digitizing approximately 125,000 pages from Colorado’s historic newspapers, 1880-1899. This project will add to an existing initiative that is converting forty-four newspapers representing more than 50,000 pages. Through these projects researchers, genealogists, students, teachers and those interested in Colorado history will be able to search for a wide range of topics, people and events as well as view full page images of these historic newspapers. “This project will provide our students and educators— and anyone who loves Colorado history--with an unparalleled view of Colorado’ s past,” commented Nancy Bolt, Colorado State Librarian. The Colorado’s Historic Newspaper Collection will be available on the Internet through CDP’s web site (http://www.cdpheritage.org) and the Colorado Virtual Library ( http://www.aclin.org). “This project will allow scanning across all newspapers at one time, which is now not possible. With this project, faculty, researchers, and students will be able to do research efficiently, seeing history and social issues from new vantage points,” noted Nancy Allen, Dean of Libraries, University of Denver. This project will use Olive Software’s ActivePaper Archive™ that is specifically designed to handle historic newspapers ( http://www.uk.olivesoftware.com). Additional newspapers would be added to the Collection as funds are available. It is the intent of the project partners that the Colorado’s Historic Newspaper Collection would eventually include papers through 1923, a total of 1,640,000 pages. “If we can provide easy access to the information about the people who made Colorado what it is today, genealogists and historians will be very pleased,” commented Rebecca Lintz, Librarian, Colorado Historical Society. The Collection is being created from the microfilm collection held by the Colorado Historical Society ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- POINT GUARD THE SLIDING ZONE DEFENSE by John S. Egli West Nyack, NY: Parker Publishing Company. Inc. 1970 Pg. 146: Point Man Pressure. (As close as the book comes--ed.) From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Dec 11 03:27:20 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:27:20 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker Message-ID: Sorry to post this to the general list, when I really only want to call on the help of Barry, Fred, and Jesse. (Jesse: I don't have a separate email for you). While I'm not aware of a cite earlier than the Century Dictionary(1909) cite in my Mathews, I'd love to know if there is earlier. We get this question posted over at the Straight Dope repeatedly. Mighty Cecil, himself, even wrote a column on it many years ago. But NO cites. Everyone spouts on about Hickock, but no one can cite any evidence. Questions: Did the phrase originate about Hickock? Is there any contemporary cite for the cards? (I doubt it. Why WOULD there be)? I guess I'm only asking if anyone with database access could check this for prior to 1909. I THINK I checked Ancestry.com, but I'll go back tonight and try again. And, Jesse, you don't list this useage in current on-line OED that I've found. Neither does M-W. I could be wrong. Sam Clements From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 11 03:43:06 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:43:06 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker In-Reply-To: <001301c3bf96$b23197a0$92631941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Sam Clements wrote: > While I'm not aware of a cite earlier than the Century Dictionary(1909) cite > in my Mathews, I'd love to know if there is earlier. We get this question > posted over at the Straight Dope repeatedly. Mighty Cecil, himself, even > wrote a column on it many years ago. But NO cites. 1903 _National Police Gazette_ 3 Jan. 6 DEATH IN A POKER GAME WHERE ONE PLAYER HELD A "DEAD MAN'S HAND" A Jack Full on Red Sevens Seems to be an Unusually Fatal Combination of the Pasteboards. ... Half a dozen sports were lined up against the bar of a big hotel in Milwaukee, Wis., the other night, and the talk drifted to poker. "There is in the great game," remarked one, "what is known as the 'Dead Man's Hand.' I only saw it played once, but that was enough for me. I'd heard about this 'Dead Man's Hand,' soon after I struck the West. [No mention of Wild Bill Hickock] Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Dec 11 03:48:03 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:48:03 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker In-Reply-To: <001301c3bf96$b23197a0$92631941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 10:27:20PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote: > Sorry to post this to the general list, when I really only want to call on > the help of Barry, Fred, and Jesse. (Jesse: I don't have a separate email > for you). It's jester at panix.com . > While I'm not aware of a cite earlier than the Century Dictionary(1909) cite > in my Mathews, I'd love to know if there is earlier. We get this question > posted over at the Straight Dope repeatedly. Mighty Cecil, himself, even > wrote a column on it many years ago. But NO cites. > > Everyone spouts on about Hickock, but no one can cite any evidence. > > Questions: Did the phrase originate about Hickock? Is there any > contemporary cite for the cards? (I doubt it. Why WOULD there be)? > > And, Jesse, you don't list this useage in current on-line OED that I've > found. Neither does M-W. There is an entry for it in HDAS, which uses the same Century quote but dated to the 1908 supplement (I don't know if this is an error, or the actual date of that supplement, or HDAS's overly optimistic dating practices). Still haven't discovered anything earlier. It's unquestionably associated with Hickok and I have no reason do doubt this. Rosa spends a bit of time on the subject in his 1974 biography. I haven't re-checked the databases, though. Jesse Sheidlower OED From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Dec 11 03:49:22 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:49:22 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 10:43:06PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Sam Clements wrote: > > > While I'm not aware of a cite earlier than the Century Dictionary(1909) cite > > in my Mathews, I'd love to know if there is earlier. We get this question > > posted over at the Straight Dope repeatedly. Mighty Cecil, himself, even > > wrote a column on it many years ago. But NO cites. > > 1903 _National Police Gazette_ 3 Jan. 6 DEATH IN A POKER GAME WHERE ONE > PLAYER HELD A "DEAD MAN'S HAND" A Jack Full on Red Sevens Seems to be an > Unusually Fatal Combination of the Pasteboards. ... Half a dozen sports were > lined up against the bar of a big hotel in Milwaukee, Wis., the other > night, and the talk drifted to poker. "There is in the great game," > remarked one, "what is known as the 'Dead Man's Hand.' I only saw it > played once, but that was enough for me. I'd heard about this 'Dead Man's > Hand,' soon after I struck the West. > > [No mention of Wild Bill Hickock] Hmm, but also no mention of black aces and eights, which is the hand traditionally associated with this phrase. Jesse Sheidlower OED From douglas at NB.NET Thu Dec 11 03:54:03 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:54:03 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker In-Reply-To: <001301c3bf96$b23197a0$92631941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: At a glance, ancestry.com shows the idea of the dead man's hand from 1885, the actual phrase "dead man's hand" from 1888 (for aces and eights) and from 1905 (for jacks and eights). I searched with "jacks/eights", "aces/eights". The idiot search engine can't handle "dead man's hand" for whatever reason. -- Doug Wilson From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Dec 11 03:57:03 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:57:03 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031210225103.04a37a80@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 10:54:03PM -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > At a glance, ancestry.com shows the idea of the dead man's hand from 1885, > the actual phrase "dead man's hand" from 1888 (for aces and eights) and > from 1905 (for jacks and eights). I searched with "jacks/eights", > "aces/eights". The idiot search engine can't handle "dead man's hand" for > whatever reason. Do post the details! Once you've navigated the idiot search engine, it would be a shame to make the rest of us do so again. JTS From douglas at NB.NET Thu Dec 11 03:59:58 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:59:58 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker (addendum) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031210225103.04a37a80@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >At a glance, ancestry.com shows the idea of the dead man's hand from 1885, >the actual phrase "dead man's hand" from 1888 (for aces and eights) and >from 1905 (for jacks and eights). I searched with "jacks/eights", >"aces/eights". The idiot search engine can't handle "dead man's hand" for >whatever reason. Oops, the 1885 date is an error. 1888 is the earliest. If necessary I can post the exact sources and quotations. -- Doug Wilson From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Dec 11 04:02:03 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 23:02:03 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker Message-ID: Doug, I guess I didn't search Ancestry before? What's the 1888 cite? I knew that when you subscribed to Ancestry, it was all over for me. Next thing you know, they'll be quoting you in the NYTimes. :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:54 PM Subject: Re: Dead Man's Hand-poker > At a glance, ancestry.com shows the idea of the dead man's hand from 1885, > the actual phrase "dead man's hand" from 1888 (for aces and eights) and > from 1905 (for jacks and eights). I searched with "jacks/eights", > "aces/eights". The idiot search engine can't handle "dead man's hand" for > whatever reason. > > -- Doug Wilson > From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG Thu Dec 11 06:28:26 2003 From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 01:28:26 -0500 Subject: History of "Spanglish" in the US In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/10/2003 01:01 PM, Kathryn Remlinger wrote the following: >Can anyone suggest sources on the history of "Spanglish" in the US? I'm >particularly looking for under-grad level texts (articles, books, book >chapters) for a History of English course. Check out Carmen Silva Corval�n (AKA Carmen Silva-Corvalan), who has researched and published extensively on this matter. Her book _Language Contact and Change: Spanish in Los Angeles_ is a good place to start. Stavans is not a linguist, as has been pointed out, but he provides useful historical, sociological and other background information on Spanglish. Considering that the party line in the Spanish language establishment is that Spanglish speakers are a mob of pathetically ignorant illiterates who have betrayed their mother tongue, this is not trivial. Cheers, Scott _____________________________________________________________ Scott Sadowsky � sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org http://www.spanishtranslator.org _____________________________________________________________ "Once introduced, a prescriptive rule is very hard to eradicate, no matter how ridiculous. Inside the writing establishment, the rules survive by the same dynamic that perpetuates ritual genital mutilations." -- Steven Pinker From douglas at NB.NET Thu Dec 11 04:56:43 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 23:56:43 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker In-Reply-To: <002f01c3bf9b$8990a520$92631941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: "Atchison Daily Globe" [Atchison KS], 13 Apr. 1888: p. 1, col. 6: <<"I held 'aces and eights,' a dead man's hand," was a note left by a Leavenworth suicide the other day.>> ---------- "Atlanta Constitution", 28 July 1895: p. 23 (?), col. 3 [attrib. "New York Times"]: <> [title] <<.... "Finally Cherokee said:'I ain't aimin' to invest Wolfville in no superstitious fears, but I jest chronicles as a current event how I was settin' into a little porker [sic] last night an' three times straight I picks up "the hand the dead man held" -- jacks up on eights, an' it win every time.' ....">> ---------- "Daily Nevada State Journal" [Reno NV], 3 Dec. 1905: p. 12, col. 4: <> ---------- -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Thu Dec 11 06:08:10 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 01:08:10 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031210232354.04a126a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: None of the items I've found (1888-1910) mentions Hickok. Another "dead man's hand" from the early 1890's (a couple of different anecdotes): three jacks plus two red sevens. E.g.: ---------- "Woodland Daily Democrat" [Woodland CA], 13 July 1891: p. 4 (?), col. 4 [attrib. "New York Telegram"]: <<"I have drawn a pair of sevens. I now hold jacks full on red sevens. It is a fatal hand. No one ever yet held it and left the card table alive. ....">> ---------- -- Doug Wilson From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Thu Dec 11 13:28:08 2003 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 08:28:08 -0500 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <200312110000.APJ51105@mirapointmr3.wayne.edu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Dec 11 13:52:34 2003 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 08:52:34 -0500 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) Message-ID: From: Tom Kysilko : At 12/10/2003 11:46 AM -0500, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: :: Does every region have ? : The term I hear in MN is 'starter castle'. Growing up in the 80s in Southern Maryland, 'McMansion' was used to describe the huge houses going up at a huge rate, particularly around Potomac (on the other side of DC), at the time. Part of the connotation, as i understood it, was that they couldn't be "real" mansions, 'cause they didn't sit on more than an acre or two of land and weren't surrounded by big trees. (Southern Maryland was still largely agricultural at the time--since then it's started to get its share of McMansions itself.) I didn't hear 'starter mansion' until i was in Philadelphia for grad school. This is the first i've run across 'starter castle', but i must admit that i like it (for professionally completely non-defendable reasons :-] ). David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Dec 11 13:39:21 2003 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:39:21 -0400 Subject: starters (was: McMansions) In-Reply-To: <107f01c3bfee$2ec63850$84fbab0a@DJJ3J631> Message-ID: My favorite "starter" is "starter marriage." dInIs From: Tom Kysilko : At 12/10/2003 11:46 AM -0500, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: :: Does every region have ? : The term I hear in MN is 'starter castle'. Growing up in the 80s in Southern Maryland, 'McMansion' was used to describe the huge houses going up at a huge rate, particularly around Potomac (on the other side of DC), at the time. Part of the connotation, as i understood it, was that they couldn't be "real" mansions, 'cause they didn't sit on more than an acre or two of land and weren't surrounded by big trees. (Southern Maryland was still largely agricultural at the time--since then it's started to get its share of McMansions itself.) I didn't hear 'starter mansion' until i was in Philadelphia for grad school. This is the first i've run across 'starter castle', but i must admit that i like it (for professionally completely non-defendable reasons :-] ). David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 432-3099 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 11 16:15:24 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:15:24 EST Subject: Swimsical; Comments on Etymology Message-ID: SWIMSICAL Musical, dance-ical, now swimsical? There aren't a whole lot of Google hits right now. From a review of the new movie BIG FISH: 10 December 2003, NEW YORK POST, pg. 71: _Go Fish_ _Tim Burton odyssey is swimsical & satisfying_ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY The November and December 2003 COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY issues were just received. The November issue (with "jazz," "hash house lingo," and more) is 55 pages and contains contributions from such people as Sam Clements and George Thompson. The December issue ("Compiling material for a book on _Hot Dog_--Part 1") is also 55 pages. COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY appears monthly, from October-May. A yearly individual subscription is only $15. Gerald Cohen deserves tremendous credit for compiling an enormous amount of material each month. I remember when COE issues were half the size (25 pages). A 55-pager would be a two-month double issue. Maybe I should take Gerald Cohen with me on my next trip. From caman at AMLAW.COM Thu Dec 11 16:21:33 2003 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:21:33 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Dec 2003 to 10 Dec 2003 (#2003-344) Message-ID: New format? I cannot open this in Simple Text and thus cannot read the contents.... > ---------- > From: Automatic digest processor > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 12:10 AM > To: Recipients of ADS-L digests > Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Dec 2003 to 10 Dec 2003 (#2003-344) > > This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet > Service. To view the original message content, open the attached > message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to > disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original > character set. <> > From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Dec 11 16:39:11 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:39:11 -0500 Subject: LSSU Word Banishment Message-ID: Forwarded from John Shibley of LSSU. ----- Forwarded message from John Shibley ----- WORD BANISHMENT SEASON FOR 2004 OPENS SAULT STE. MARIE, Mich. - It's time to get rid of this past year's abused and mis-used words and phrases. For every New Year's Day since 1976, Lake Superior State University has issued an annual "List of Words Banished from the Queen's English for Mis-Use, Over-Use or General Uselessness." Between now and December 15, LSSU will be accepting nominations for banishment from all over the world, covering all manner of word or phrase worthy of exile. University officials note that this year's efforts have received a pre-election year lift, but not necessarily from the world of politics. Nominations for 2004's list have been rolling in via e-mail at an average of 100 a week. "The selection committee anticipates . . . a surplus of election-year nominees," says a spokesman for the word-sifters. "But thanks to the Internet, we are already inundated with more than 5,000 declared candidates." Hundreds of words from the fields of academia, advertising, business, the military, sports, and politics have found their way onto the banishment list. Words and phrases outlawed in previous years include: My Bad (`98), Forced Relaxation (`89), Free Gift (`88), Live Audience (`83, `87, `90), and Minor Emergency Clinic (86 and 90). Last year's list featured "peel-and-eat shrimp," the noun-modifier "extreme," and the elusive redundancy "undisclosed, secret location." Nominations for 2004's list, along with compelling reasons for banishment, should be submitted early, and often, through the Internet at http://www.lssu.edu/banished. The 2004 list will be released on January 1, in time to welcome the new year. LSSU John Shibley Photographer/Writer Public Relations Office Lake Superior State University Sault Ste. Marie, MI 49783 906/635-2314 (voice) 906/635-2623 (fax) "There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know." - US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld ----- End forwarded message ----- From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Dec 11 16:47:55 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:47:55 -0500 Subject: LSSU Word Banishment Message-ID: The strategy doesn't seem to be very effective, if they had to outlaw live audience three times. Could it be that that's because live audience is a useful phrase after all, distinguishing a live audience from a televised audience? Forced relaxation and minor emergency clinic are also useful terms, and I rather like my bad. In other words, I am not entirely sympathetic with the LSSU's list. It may be an effective public relations strategy for them, though. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 11:39 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: LSSU Word Banishment Forwarded from John Shibley of LSSU. ----- Forwarded message from John Shibley ----- Words and phrases outlawed in previous years include: My Bad (`98), Forced Relaxation (`89), Free Gift (`88), Live Audience (`83, `87, `90), and Minor Emergency Clinic (86 and 90). Last year's list featured "peel-and-eat shrimp," the noun-modifier "extreme," and the elusive redundancy "undisclosed, secret location." From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Thu Dec 11 17:35:46 2003 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:35:46 -0500 Subject: LSSU Word Banishment In-Reply-To: <20031211163911.GA1352@panix.com> Message-ID: Can't somebody please ask Mr. Shibley and his colleagues to drop "the Queen's English" from the list title? It's our English too! And it's too bad they wanted to banish "my bad"; it's one of my favorite apologies. Come to think of it, I'll copy this note to Mr. Shibley myself. At 11:39 AM 12/11/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Forwarded from John Shibley of LSSU. > >----- Forwarded message from John Shibley ----- > >WORD BANISHMENT SEASON FOR 2004 OPENS > >SAULT STE. MARIE, Mich. - It's time to get rid of this past year's abused >and mis-used words and phrases. > For every New Year's Day since 1976, Lake Superior State >University has issued an annual "List of Words Banished from the Queen's >English for Mis-Use, Over-Use or General Uselessness." Between now and >December 15, LSSU will be accepting nominations for banishment from all >over the world, covering all manner of word or phrase worthy of exile. > University officials note that this year's efforts have received a >pre-election year lift, but not necessarily from the world of politics. >Nominations for 2004's list have been rolling in via e-mail at an average >of 100 a week. > "The selection committee anticipates . . . a surplus of >election-year nominees," says a spokesman for the word-sifters. "But thanks >to the Internet, we are already inundated with more than 5,000 declared >candidates." >Hundreds of words from the fields of academia, advertising, business, the >military, sports, and politics have found their way onto the banishment list. > Words and phrases outlawed in previous years include: My >Bad (`98), Forced Relaxation (`89), Free Gift (`88), Live >Audience (`83, `87, `90), and Minor Emergency Clinic (86 and 90). Last >year's list featured "peel-and-eat shrimp," the noun-modifier "extreme," >and the elusive redundancy "undisclosed, secret location." > Nominations for 2004's list, along with compelling reasons for >banishment, should be submitted early, and often, through the Internet at >http://www.lssu.edu/banished. > The 2004 list will be released on January 1, in time to welcome >the new year. > > LSSU > > > > > >John Shibley >Photographer/Writer >Public Relations Office >Lake Superior State University >Sault Ste. Marie, MI 49783 > >906/635-2314 (voice) >906/635-2623 (fax) > > >"There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. >We also know there are known unknowns; >that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. >But there are also unknown unknowns - > the ones we don't know we don't know." > >- US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld > >----- End forwarded message ----- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 11 18:28:33 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:28:33 EST Subject: Nassau Guardian to be digitized Message-ID: Barry, Thanks for your suggestion. We hopefully will have the Nassau Guardian available over the course of the next year. The Sporting Life suggestion is great as well. Do you mean the American version? Mark Paper of Record (I congratulated Paper of Record for its work on digitizing THE SPORTING NEWS. I suggested that it also digitize SPORTING LIFE...I keep checking www.newspaperarchive.com for its progress on digitizing the JAMAICA GLEANER, but, sadly, it doesn't look like much has been done in the last few months....I suggested that Paper of Record do the TRINIDAD GUARDIAN, to help on "calypso" and various foods that I recently posted. The NASSAU GUARDIAN is not the same newspaper, but will definitely offer valuable Caribbean cuisine research help. Nice work, if they do it--Barry Popik) (LIBRARY OF CONGRESS) The Nassau guardian. Nassau, Bahamas : M. Moseley, v. : ill. (chiefly advertisements) ; 60 cm. Began in 1844. Brief Description: The Nassau guardian and Bahama Islands advocate and intelligencer [microform]. Nassau, Bahamas : Nassau Guardian, -1949. v. -year 105, no. 120 (Apr. 19, 1949). The Nassau guardian [microform]. Nassau, Bahamas : Nassau Guardian Pub. Ltd., 1949-1967. v. Year 105, no. 121 (Apr. 20, 1949)-year 124, no. 26 (Dec. 30, 1967). Brief Description: The Nassau guardian and observer [microform]. [Nassau, Bahamas] : Nassau Guardian Ltd., 1968. v. Year 124, no. 27 (Jan. 2, 1968). Brief Description: The Nassau guardian and Bahamas observer [microform]. [Nassau, Bahamas] : Nassau Guardian Ltd., 1968-1971. v. Year 124, no. 28 (Jan. 3, 1968)-year 127, vol. 31 (Jan. 2, 1971). The Nassau guardian [microform]. Nassau, Bahamas : Nassau Guardian Ltd., 1971- v. Year 127, vol. 32 (Jan. 4, 1971)- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 11 20:31:23 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:31:23 -0500 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:09 PM -0500 12/10/03, Dave Wilton wrote: > > Here in the Santa Cruz area there is a vegetarian restaurant called >> "Dharma's". Originally, some twenty years ago or so, it had been named >> "McDharma's", until Ronald McDonald & Co. took umbrage and sued. >> Being a commercial application, perhaps they had a legally justifiable >> defense of trademark, but not a good sense of humor. > >McDonald's would seem to be justified in this one. Both are restaurants (or >McDonald's at least has pretenses at being one). The chief purpose of >trademark law is to distinguish one product from another, so businesses in >the same industry are the most vulnerable to trademark infringement. > >The decision in the "McSleep" suit is questionable. AFAIK, McDonald's is not >in the hotel business. > >Suing a dictionary for including "McJob" would simply be silly and probably >laughed out of court. Not to say that McDonald's might not try... And speaking of Raven--does anyone know if the "McDavid" chain in Jerusalem (and maybe Tel Aviv--I can't remember), which I assume are kosher fast food emporia, are licensed by McDonald's? For all I know, they're a subfranchise of Mickey (a.k.a. Moishe) D's. L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 11 21:15:24 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:15:24 -0500 Subject: LSSU Word Banishment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:47 AM -0500 12/11/03, Baker, John wrote: > The strategy doesn't seem to be very effective, if they had >to outlaw live audience three times. Could it be that that's >because live audience is a useful phrase after all, distinguishing a >live audience from a televised audience? Forced relaxation and >minor emergency clinic are also useful terms, and I rather like my >bad. > > In other words, I am not entirely sympathetic with the >LSSU's list. It may be an effective public relations strategy for >them, though. > >John Baker > I'm wondering what mortal sin was committed by "peel-and-eat shrimp". I think I know what they are, as well as what they aren't (shrimp that are already peeled or shelled before they are served), and I'm not sure how else they would be singled out more efficiently and elegantly (shrimp with shells still on? shrimp that need to be peeled?). Maybe it's a question of whether you call those plasticky coverings "shells" rather than "peels", which is fine, except "shell-and-eat shrimp" sounds odd to me, possibly for phonological reasons. (I shell clams, I shell mussels, but I peel rather than shell shrimp.) Or maybe it's just overuse, at least around Lake Superior. Larry From dsgood at VISI.COM Thu Dec 11 21:43:00 2003 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:43:00 -0600 Subject: McMansions In-Reply-To: <20031211030221.4FEC549F1@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Tom Kysilko wrote: > At 12/10/2003 11:46 AM -0500, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > >>Does every region have ? > > The term I hear in MN is 'starter castle'. > I haven't heard any term for it, because it hasn't come up in any conversation I remember. What I've read in the Southwest Journal (which covers Southwest Minneapolis) is "McMansion," I think. So long as we're on Minnesota terms: 1) "Soda" seems to be replacing "pop". I no longer have to remember to say "pop" instead of "soda". 2) In semi-popular books on American dialects, I've seen references to the term "boulevard strip" for the vegetated strip between street and sidewalk. The current term is "boulevard". I wonder when that changeover was complete. 3) A while ago, the City of Minneapolis officially decreed that "Nordeast Minneapolis (aka "Nordeast") should be called "Northeast Minneapolis." Rationale: The old term was a slur against Scandinavian immigrants and their descendants. -- Dan Goodman Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Dec 11 22:43:37 2003 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:43:37 -0800 Subject: LSSU Word Banishment Message-ID: I think you've missed the point, Larry. It's not peel vs. shell or whether they have shells. The issue was that after you peel them, you DO eat them--you just don't peel them for fun and leave them on your plate. Why do you need to be told to eat them? Fritz I'm wondering what mortal sin was committed by "peel-and-eat shrimp". I think I know what they are, as well as what they aren't (shrimp that are already peeled or shelled before they are served), and I'm not sure how else they would be singled out more efficiently and elegantly (shrimp with shells still on? shrimp that need to be peeled?). Maybe it's a question of whether you call those plasticky coverings "shells" rather than "peels", which is fine, except "shell-and-eat shrimp" sounds odd to me, possibly for phonological reasons. (I shell clams, I shell mussels, but I peel rather than shell shrimp.) Or maybe it's just overuse, at least around Lake Superior. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 11 23:58:58 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:58:58 -0500 Subject: LSSU Word Banishment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:43 PM -0800 12/11/03, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >I think you've missed the point, Larry. It's not peel vs. shell or >whether they have shells. >The issue was that after you peel them, you DO eat them--you just >don't peel them for fun and leave them on your plate. Why do you >need to be told to eat them? >Fritz > Well, I'm not sure about that. Should "Spray and Wash" be just called "Spray" because of course you're going to wash your clothes after spraying them (and not just spray them and put them back on)? How about "Wash 'n' Wear" clothes--should they just be called "Wash" clothes? I think the idea here might be that you X them and then you immediately can and do Y them. Scratch 'n' sniff movie cards. Scratch 'n' play lotto tickets. Surely there must be an _American Speech_ paper on these formations in commercial English? Larry From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Dec 12 00:17:09 2003 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:17:09 -0800 Subject: LSSU Word Banishment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What's more, "peel and eat" makes especially good sense, since it tells you that the shrimp are already cooked. (You can peel a shrimp whether it's cooked or raw.) Peter Mc. --On Thursday, December 11, 2003 6:58 PM -0500 Laurence Horn wrote: > At 2:43 PM -0800 12/11/03, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >> I think you've missed the point, Larry. It's not peel vs. shell or >> whether they have shells. >> The issue was that after you peel them, you DO eat them--you just >> don't peel them for fun and leave them on your plate. Why do you >> need to be told to eat them? >> Fritz >> > Well, I'm not sure about that. Should "Spray and Wash" be just > called "Spray" because of course you're going to wash your clothes > after spraying them (and not just spray them and put them back on)? > How about "Wash 'n' Wear" clothes--should they just be called "Wash" > clothes? I think the idea here might be that you X them and then you > immediately can and do Y them. Scratch 'n' sniff movie cards. > Scratch 'n' play lotto tickets. Surely there must be an _American > Speech_ paper on these formations in commercial English? > > Larry ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 12 00:30:27 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:30:27 -0500 Subject: A Whole New Ball Game (1961) Message-ID: "A whole new ball game," surprisingly, isn't in SPORTING NEWS before the 1970s. It was first in the WALL STREET JOURNAL? I didn't find a good "whole 'nuther ball game," either. Tunisian Tumult BY DAN CORDTZ Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 24, 1961. p. 1 (2 pages): (First page of two--ed) And, perhaps most serious of all in the long run, "a whole new ball game in Algeria," as one observer here puts it, referring to the disturbing effect the new trouble is likely to have on peace talks now going on between France and the Algerian rebels in an effort to end their seven-year war. Republican Race ALAN L. OTTEN Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 7, 1964. p. 1 (2 pages) : (Pg. 14--ed.) "This is truly wide open," asserts a California Republican leader. "It's a whole new ball game." Wood, Field and Stream By OSCAR GODBOUT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 14, 1964. p. 28 (1 page): The first fish in constitutes a record and it's a whole new ball game. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Dec 12 00:45:38 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:45:38 -0500 Subject: McMansions and Mpls In-Reply-To: <3FD8E4E4.8020304@visi.com> Message-ID: Minneapolis is getting so uppity. It's still Nort' and Sout' Dakota, after all. And 'soda' may be the big-city term, but 'pop' is still used in the hinterlands of Minnesota. Gone from Minnesota lo these many years, but still in touch. Beverly OLSON Flanigan At 03:43 PM 12/11/2003 -0600, you wrote: >So long as we're on Minnesota terms: > >1) "Soda" seems to be replacing "pop". I no longer have to remember to >say "pop" instead of "soda". > >2) In semi-popular books on American dialects, I've seen references to >the term "boulevard strip" for the vegetated strip between street and >sidewalk. The current term is "boulevard". I wonder when that >changeover was complete. > >3) A while ago, the City of Minneapolis officially decreed that >"Nordeast Minneapolis (aka "Nordeast") should be called "Northeast >Minneapolis." Rationale: The old term was a slur against Scandinavian >immigrants and their descendants. > >-- >Dan Goodman >Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or >http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ >Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From vole at NETW.COM Fri Dec 12 01:26:12 2003 From: vole at NETW.COM (Joel Shaver) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:26:12 -0800 Subject: LSSU Word Banishment In-Reply-To: <200312111559437.SM01180@psmtp.com> Message-ID: How about seed-and-eat grapes or olives? :-) Don't mind me, I'm new here. Joel Shaver On Dec 11, 2003, at 3:58 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> > Well, I'm not sure about that. Should "Spray and Wash" be just > called "Spray" because of course you're going to wash your clothes > after spraying them (and not just spray them and put them back on)? > How about "Wash 'n' Wear" clothes--should they just be called "Wash" > clothes? I think the idea here might be that you X them and then you > immediately can and do Y them. Scratch 'n' sniff movie cards. > Scratch 'n' play lotto tickets. Surely there must be an _American > Speech_ paper on these formations in commercial English? > > Larry > > ----------------- It don't matter where you bury me I'll be home and I'll be free It don't matter where I lay All my tears be washed away -- Julie Miller All My Tears From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 12 03:06:58 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:06:58 -0500 Subject: Soup should be seen and not heard (1917) Message-ID: http://jerseyshorefood.com/oceancounty/tomsriver/oldtimetavern/ottapps.html "Soup should be seen and not heard." - anonymous There are 137 Google hits for "soup should be seen and not heard." It's an anti-slurpian commandment. There are 3,560 Google hits for "children should be seen and not heard." OED traces the phrase to about 1450, with "a maid should be seen and not heard." Everybody ought to have a maid. I found this while going through the Harry Franck travel ouevre. VAGAONDING DOWN THE ANDES by Harry A, Franck New York: The Century Company 1917 Pg. 10: It recalled a placard I had seen in a Texas restaurant on my journey southward: "Eat first, THEN talk," and amid the opening chorus Hays' memory harked back to a sign that once embellished a Bowery institution: "Soup should be seen and not heard." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 12 05:35:21 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:35:21 EST Subject: "Drive for show and putt for dough" (1939) Message-ID: More work on sports cliches, using THE SPORTING NEWS database, for the Fred Shapiros out there. TSN didn't help here, however. The first citation here is from Ancestry--which has it as an "old saying." There are 3,900 Google hits for "putt for dough." (ANCESTRY) 14 August 1939, BISMARCK TRIBUNE (Bismarck, North Dakota), pg. 6, col. 3: There's an old golf saying that "you drive for show--but putt for dough," and "that about tells the story," said Sarazen. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) SPORT POSTSCRIPTS PAUL ZIMMERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 2, 1940. p. 6 (2 pages): (First page--ed.) That old golf gag which says "they drive for fun but putt for dough" certainly is being borne out these days by Jimmy Demaret, the smiling Texan who is setting such a dizzy pace for the rest of the professionals in the winter money tournaments. Walker Wins Links Crown JACK CURNOW. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 6, 1943. p. 8 (2 pages) : (First page--ed.) Some golfing wag once said, "You drive for show and putt for dough!" Eaton Paces Golfers in Southland Open JACK CURNOW. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 3, 1945. p. 6 (1 page): There's an old links bromide, "You drive for show and putt for dough." Junior Girls Golf Opens Here Today The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Aug 17, 1959. p. A16 (1 page): "Drive for show and putt for dough," Anne Quast told a group of USGA junior girls championship contestants during a clinic yesterday at Manor Country Club. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 12 06:49:56 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 01:49:56 EST Subject: March Madness (1939, 1944) Message-ID: "March Madness" is a sports term that supposedly started in the high schools of the Midwest. I thought it would be a good term to check on THE SPORTING NEWS and Ancestry ("March Madness" + "basketball") databases. (GOOGLE) http://www.marchmadness.org/exp/history.htm A Brief History of March Madness Every year, as winter wanes, a curious ailment spreads across the country. The thump of basketballs, the squeak of sneakers, and the roar of the crowd are sure signals that basketball fever is with us. It's a condition called "March Madness," and it afflicts millions of people with no known cure. Where did this malady originate? A Tradition is Born "March Madness" was born in Illinois. The annual tournament of high school boys basketball teams, sponsored by the Illinois High School Association, grew from a small invitational affair in 1908 to a statewide institution with over 900 schools competing by the late 1930's. A field of teams known as the "Sweet Sixteen" routinely drew sellout crowds to the University of Illinois' Huff Gymnasium. In a time before television, before the college game became popular with the average fan, before professional leagues had established a foothold in the nation's large cities, basketball fever had already reached epidemic proportions in the Land of Lincoln. Giving It a Name Henry V. Porter, assistant executive secretary of the Illinois High School Association, was so impressed by the phenomenon that he wrote an essay to commemorate it. Entitled "March Madness," it first appeared in the Illinois Interscholastic, the IHSA's magazine, in 1939. The term struck a chord with newspapermen, who used it throughout their pages. During the tournament's "Golden Era" of the 1940's and 1950's, "March Madness" became the popular name of the event. It was an era of some of Illinois' most legendary teams, including the undefeated 1944 Taylorville squad and Mt. Vernon's unstoppable back-to-back champions of 1949 and 1950. But the one champion remembered more than any other is tiny Hebron, a school of only 99 students, which won the tournament in 1952. Making It Official The IHSA tournaments continued to grow and develop. In 1963, the tournament moved to the huge new Assembly Hall on the campus of the University of Illinois and fans witnessed the most famous finish in history, when Chicago Carver beat Centralia on a last-second shot by a substitute named Anthony Smedley. "March Madness" grew as well. Beginning in 1973, the IHSA began using the term officially in its programs and on its merchandise. In 1977, the organization enlisted veteran Chicago sportswriter and Big Ten basketball referee Jim Enright to write the official history of the boys basketball tournament. The result was March Madness: The Story of High School Basketball in Illinois. As media technology advanced, the IHSA and KOST Broadcast Sales of Chicago produced March Madness: The Official Video History of the IHSA Basketball Tournament in 1989. Both the book and video were sold nationwide. During this period, the Illinois High School Association received trademark status for the term "March Madness" and registered the trademark "America's Original March Madness." The spirit of March Madness has subsequently spread from coast to coast, as other companies and organizations, including state high school associations and manufacturers, have been licensed by the IHSA to use these trademarks. (ANCESTRY) 22 March 1935, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg.5, col. 7 ad: Spring Fever? March Madness? Our cure-all is a gay HANKIE 16 March 1944, MARION STAR (Marion, Ohio), pg. 22, col. 1: _High School Cage Teams Renew_ _Battle for State Title Tonight_ By The Associated Press COLUMBUS, March 16--"March madness," a disease which seems to go hand in hand with the high school basketball tournament, will start toward its peak in Ohio tonight. The principal "sufferers" tonight will be centered at Youngstown... 19 March 1945, ZANESVILLE SIGNAL (Zanesville, Ohio), pg. 9, col. 2: COLUMBUS, O.--(AP)--The cream of Ohioh's high school basketball crop--eight teams which have won a total of 183 games this season and lost only 12--headed today for the last lap of the annual march madness which will end Saturday night with the crowning of the 1945 state Class A and B champions. 1 March 1946, TIMES-RECORDER (Zanesville, Ohio), pg.3B, col. 4: March madness arrived early this year as basketball fans have been streaming the auditorium over the past two weeks tosee the county and sectional tournaments in the City auditorium. 14 March 1947, DIXON EVENING TELEGRAPH (Dixon, Illinois), pg. 7, col. 4: _"MARCH MADNESS"_--March Madness they call it...state championship tournament time in other words. And the "madness" isn't just confined to Illinois. Forty-six states choose champions with only California and New York abstaining. But all 48 states have some kind of championship eliminations. Some have two to four classes of meets, according to the enrollments of the schools. Fifteen states lump all schools together in one furious title race, Illinois for instance, retaininf the exciting though faint possibility that some little David may knock off a Goliath in a stunning upset. These Davids are the darlings of the neutral fans...fans whose favorites were eliminated early in the chase. Such tiny communities as Reedsville, Wis., Lyn, Minn., Farmer, Ohio, Diagonal, La., and our own Dundee have brought enduring fame to their towns through the heroic featts of their high school cagers. March Madness...truly an apt nom de plume! 14 March 1962, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 40, col. 3: MARCH MADNESS: Nearly everybody talks or writes about basketball:... (Written from Las Vegas, Nevada--ed.) 14 January 1967, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 12, col. 3: Did the December destruction set the stage for the March madness commonly called the National Intercollegiate Basketball Tournament? (Written from Chicago, Illinois--ed.) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) High-school cage fervor grabs Midwest By Dick Cooper Written for The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Mar 5, 1966. p. 10 (1 page): For schools involved, the final stages produce moments of undiluted ecstacy and devastation. "March Madness," they call it in Illinois. The phenomenon is similar in Indiana and neighboring states. March madness By Joseph C. Harsch. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Mar 5, 1970. p. 20 (1 page) What about "the Big Dance"? (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Ice Tank New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 13, 1987. p. D23 (1 page) _Duos at the Big Dance_ 12 November 1990. SPORTING NEWS, pg. 23, col. 1: _College Football_ _Hawkeyes Step Closer_ _To Big Ten's Big Dance_ From jshibley at LSSU.EDU Fri Dec 12 15:35:59 2003 From: jshibley at LSSU.EDU (John Shibley) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:35:59 -0500 Subject: LSSU Word Banishment Message-ID: Hi Beverly, The list, at least the timing of its release, derives partial inspiration from the Queen's New Years Honor List: http://www.therockalltimes.co.uk/2001/12/31/honours-list.html Hope this clears up any bad feelings. Cheers! John S At 12:35 PM 12/11/2003, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >Can't somebody please ask Mr. Shibley and his colleagues to drop "the >Queen's English" from the list title? It's our English too! And it's too >bad they wanted to banish "my bad"; it's one of my favorite apologies. > >Come to think of it, I'll copy this note to Mr. Shibley myself. John Shibley Photographer/Writer Public Relations Office Lake Superior State University Sault Ste. Marie, MI 49783 906/635-2314 (voice) 906/635-2623 (fax) "There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know." - US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Dec 12 16:26:40 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:26:40 EST Subject: PIGEON = 'sponsee' Message-ID: Another discussion group has raised the issue of the earliest use of the word PIGEON in Alcoholics Anonymous to refer to a person who is 'sponsored' by another person in the program (the SPONSOR-SPONSEE relationship is a widely recongnized and reifed aspect of the program, e.g., new members of the Program are strongly encouraged to find a person with long-term sobriety who will act as their SPONSOR, a person who will guide them, generally through daily contact, through the program). I believe that this term PIGEON used in this sense is at least 30 years old in A.A. in the United States. But apparently does not appear with very great frequency in the usual data bases. In a message dated 12/11/03 7:01:39 PM, someone writes: This paragraph appears in a novel, Lawrence Block's _Small Town_, 2003, p. 78), on the same page that also includes the useful lexical items "cruisier" ([re Christopher St. in Greenwich Village:] "at this hour on this nice a day it would be a little bit cruisier than he could stand") and "lesbian bed death". "The conventional wisdom in AA was that one ought to choose a sponsor of one's own sex, to keep sexual tension from undermining the relationship. That was fine for straights, but it wasn't that simple in gay AA, where the term _pigeon-fucker_ had been coined to label sponsors who took sexual advantage of sponsees. (He'd heard the term at his first meeting, and thought it was some kinky practice he'd somehow missed out on.)" This was the only occurrence of this form that I could locate on either Nexis or google (yes, there were 11 google hits but all seem to involve the compositional meaning alluded to in the parenthetical from the end of the passage above, as opposed to the idiomatic sense defined in the previous sentence).  Granted, the use of "pigeon" for a dupe of one sort or another is well-established in slang use, but if I'm correctly interpreting the practice of pigeon-fucking to require the AA (if not gay AA) context and the establishment of a sponsor/sponsee relationship to be exploited, it counts as a translucent, if not opaque, compound. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 12 18:02:00 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:02:00 -0500 Subject: PIGEON = 'sponsee' In-Reply-To: <190.23a87a3d.2d0b4640@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:26 AM -0500 12/12/03, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >Another discussion group has raised the issue of the earliest use of the word >PIGEON in Alcoholics Anonymous to refer to a person who is 'sponsored' by >another person in the program (the SPONSOR-SPONSEE relationship is a widely >recongnized and reifed aspect of the program, e.g., new members of >the Program are >strongly encouraged to find a person with long-term sobriety who will act as >their SPONSOR, a person who will guide them, generally through daily contact, >through the program). > >I believe that this term PIGEON used in this sense is at least 30 years old >in A.A. in the United States. But apparently does not appear with very great >frequency in the usual data bases. > >In a message dated 12/11/03 7:01:39 PM, someone writes: That someone was me, both here and on OUTiL. The same book also provides this great exchange in which a couple of characters identify and describe "Austin conditionals" (--so called from J. L. Austin's discussion of "There are some biscuits on the sideboard if you want some" in his 1956 paper "Ifs and Cans"; a.k.a. speech act conditionals). Wonder if there's an archive of excerpts of linguistic analysis from novels not related to linguistic analysis? ========= "John, if you're home, it's Roz. Come to think of it, it's Roz whether or you're home or not, but are you?" She was in the middle of another sentence by the time he got the phone to his ear. "I've always liked that construction", he said. "'If I don't see you before you leave, have a nice time.' And if do see me before then, should I have a lousy time? Odd use of the conditional, if you think about it." "Or even if you don't." (Block, _Small Town_, 104) ========== larry > > This paragraph appears in a novel, Lawrence Block's _Small Town_, >2003, p. 78), on the same page that also includes the useful lexical >items "cruisier" ([re Christopher St. in Greenwich Village:] "at this >hour on this nice a day it would be a little bit cruisier than he >could stand") and "lesbian bed death". > >"The conventional wisdom in AA was that one ought to choose a sponsor >of one's own sex, to keep sexual tension from undermining the >relationship. That was fine for straights, but it wasn't that simple >in gay AA, where the term _pigeon-fucker_ had been coined to label >sponsors who took sexual advantage of sponsees. (He'd heard the term >at his first meeting, and thought it was some kinky practice he'd >somehow missed out on.)" > >This was the only occurrence of this form that I could locate on >either Nexis or google (yes, there were 11 google hits but all seem >to involve the compositional meaning alluded to in the parenthetical >from the end of the passage above, as opposed to the idiomatic sense >defined in the previous sentence). Granted, the use of "pigeon" for >a dupe of one sort or another is well-established in slang use, but >if I'm correctly interpreting the practice of pigeon-fucking to >require the AA (if not gay AA) context and the establishment of a >sponsor/sponsee relationship to be exploited, it counts as a >translucent, if not opaque, compound. From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Fri Dec 12 19:32:27 2003 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:32:27 -0500 Subject: X 'n Y (was Re: LSSU Word Banishment) Message-ID: I agree that the idea of one quick and easy operation is not to be gainsaid by quibbles about redundancy. Could "rock 'n roll" have supplied the canonical form: pres. inf.+pres. inf. & alliteration/rhyme? Not only commercial corporations use binomial jingle modifiers. The military adopts them ("slice 'n dice") and coins them ("shoot 'n scoot" a.k.a. "fire and forget"). Seán Fitzpatrick >> > Well, I'm not sure about that. Should "Spray and Wash" be just > called "Spray" because of course you're going to wash your clothes > after spraying them (and not just spray them and put them back on)? > How about "Wash 'n' Wear" clothes--should they just be called "Wash" > clothes? I think the idea here might be that you X them and then you > immediately can and do Y them. Scratch 'n' sniff movie cards. > Scratch 'n' play lotto tickets. Surely there must be an _American > Speech_ paper on these formations in commercial English? > > Larry > > ----------------- It don't matter where you bury me I'll be home and I'll be free It don't matter where I lay All my tears be washed away -- Julie Miller All My Tears From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 12 21:05:28 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:05:28 -0500 Subject: X 'n Y (was Re: LSSU Word Banishment) In-Reply-To: <00e401c3c0e8$6c626800$6400a8c0@FITZT1840> Message-ID: At 2:32 PM -0500 12/12/03, Seán Fitzpatrick wrote: >I agree that the idea of one quick and easy operation is not to be >gainsaid by quibbles about redundancy. > >Could "rock 'n roll" have supplied the canonical form: pres. >inf.+pres. inf. & alliteration/rhyme? > >Not only commercial corporations use binomial jingle modifiers. >The military adopts them ("slice 'n dice") and coins them ("shoot 'n >scoot" a.k.a. "fire and forget"). > >Seán Fitzpatrick Good point. I guess "peel 'n' eat", being neither alliterative nor rhyming, must have failed to charm the LSSU group. Maybe they'd have preferred my proposal for a fast food emporium, the Scarf 'N' Barf. larry From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Dec 12 22:01:08 2003 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:01:08 -0800 Subject: X 'n Y (was Re: LSSU Word Banishment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Friday, December 12, 2003 4:05 PM -0500 Laurence Horn wrote: > > Good point. I guess "peel 'n' eat", being neither alliterative nor > rhyming, must have failed to charm the LSSU group. Maybe they'd have > preferred my proposal for a fast food emporium, the Scarf 'N' Barf. > > larry I can't possibly top that one, and it's anticlimactic to say anything else at all, but I can't resist passing along the intelligence that, according to a colleague I read Larry's contribution to, there is a REAL, ACTUAL establishment in Moscow, Idaho, called Sharmin's Slurp 'n Burp. Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU Fri Dec 12 22:39:12 2003 From: jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:39:12 -0600 Subject: squat poison In-Reply-To: <0HPR00EC6I06W9@smtp4.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: Does anyone know the term "squat poison" for a children's tag game (much like "squat tag")? If so, please let me know the when, where, and how of the game. Thanks. Joan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 13 03:47:13 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:47:13 EST Subject: "Stick a fork in him--he's done" (Dizzy Dean, 1944) Message-ID: "STICK A FORK IN HIM--HE'S DONE" A happy all-American phrase blend of baseball and barbecue. I had found 1953, but I re-checked on the newly digitized THE SPORTING NEWS and on Ancestry ("stick" + "fork" + pitcher"). Once again, Ancestry beat THE SPORTING NEWS, and by a lot. 25 July 1944, BERKSHIRE EVENING EAGLE (Pittsfield, Berkshire, Massachusetts), pg. 5, col. 2 (Sports Roundup by Fritz Howell of the AP in New York--ed.): _Today's Jest Star_ John P. Carmichael, Chicago Daily News: Dizzy Dean as a broadcaster is tickling his listeners' ribs with this one: When a pitcher starts going haywire, either through wildness or throwing base hits, Dean chirps over the mike: "You can stick a fork in him folks--he's done." (Also in THE HERALD PRESS, St. Joseph, Michigan, and THE MARION STAR, Marion, Ohio, for the same date--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- OT: BACK TO WORK IN THE BRONX I worked today from 8:30 a.m. to 7:30 p.m. (with a half-hour lunch) in the Bronx Help Center. It re-opened yesterday (Thursday). On Tuesday, there had been an explosion. How could it possibly re-open? There are bars on the windows, no emergency alarms, no sprinklers, etc. Don't fire officials have to check? Don't they have eyes? They would put out a fire in the Triangle Factory waste basket, then invite everyone back in? Evidently so. About a week ago, I saw Al Sharpton host SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE. Paris Hilton was also on the show. Al Sharpton's running for President of the United States. SNL gave him some soft-ball sketches to show that he's a great leader for civil rights. Yes, Al Sharpton and Paris Hilton, live from New York. The best and brightest of American culture. Several years ago, I gave my "Big Apple" material to Al Sharpton and his National Action Network. I needed his help to honor the black men who called New York City "the Big Apple." I got no reply. And then I was reading the NEW YORK POST last week. There was a front-page story about Paris Hilton's farmboy. Then there was a front-page story about Trista's (THE BACHELORETTE) wedding. Then there was a story about Michaerl Jackson. Then there was a front-page story about Gwyneth Paltrow (she's have a baby). (The front page of today's newspaper--both news and sports--is about a Yankee pticher signing a multi-million-dollar baseball contract.) Then came this explosion and almost dying thing, and that was the last straw. I wrote another letter to the New York City Council speaker and various City Council Members. I asked that "Big Apple Corner" be removed for the 80th anniversary of the "Around the Big Apple" column. I mentioned my pathetic 12-year fight to honor the African-American stablehands. No one has done anything. No one has been even kind. I said that I'd almost died for the City of New York that morning. I'm Barry Popik. Aren't I part of New York? Aren't I a human being? Could someone answer me? There has been no reply. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 13 04:44:45 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 23:44:45 EST Subject: Shapiro, Miller in Sunday's NY Times Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/14/magazine/14ONLANGUAGE.html Those of us in the phrasal etymological dodge cannot rely on anybody's recollection; citations are the thing. My researcher, Kathleen Miller, accepted the mission and enlisted the aid of Fred R. Shapiro, who as editor of the Yale Dictionary of Quotations touches all the scholarly databases. Fred came up with several uses in the late 1970's in business publications. In the Winter 1977 issue of the California Management Review, William Matthews and Wayne Boucher wrote critically of a company that ''continues to attempt to achieve the established objectives -- way past the point at which, if the company had had a 'planned exit strategy,' it would have decided to terminate the venture.'' At that point I would have emitted a gleeful aha!, but Miller kept coming up with the use of the phrase by economists who cited a seminal 1970 book by Albert O. Hirschman about three strategies: ''Exit, Voice and Loyalty.'' According to a 2001 paper presented at a California conference by the Moscow economist Vadim Radaev, Hirschman postulated three strategies to deal with uncertainty caused by new formal rules: the voice strategist publicly questions the orders, the loyalty strategist complies and the exit strategist avoids the new rules. (...) Congratulations to Kathleen Miller and Fred Shapiro. From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sat Dec 13 04:59:26 2003 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 20:59:26 -0800 Subject: FW: 14.3465, FYI: New Website: Phrases in English Message-ID: I thought this might be of interest to some... Benjamin Barrett -----Original Message----- From: The LINGUIST Discussion List [mailto:LINGUIST at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of LINGUIST List Sent: Friday, 12 December 2003 4:58 PM LINGUIST List: Vol-14-3465. Fri Dec 12 2003. ISSN: 1068-4875. Subject: 14.3465, FYI: New Website: Phrases in English Moderators: Anthony Aristar, Wayne State U. Helen Dry, Eastern Michigan U. Reviews (reviews at linguistlist.org): Sheila Collberg, U. of Arizona Terence Langendoen, U. of Arizona Home Page: http://linguistlist.org/ The LINGUIST List is funded by Eastern Michigan University, Wayne State University, and donations from subscribers and publishers. Editor for this issue: Anne Clarke ========================================================================== Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:45:10 -0500 (EST) From: William Fletcher Subject: New Website: Phrases in English A new website, ''Phrases in English'' (PIE), has been launched: http://pie.usna.edu While still under development, PIE already offers much to both linguists and students, and additional features will increase its scope in the future. PIE incorporates a database of all 1-6-grams (phrases 1-6 ''words'' long) with part-of-speech (POS) codes occurring three or more times in the 100-million-word British National Corpus (BNC). One can explore English phraseology either through lists of forms and their frequencies or by searching for specific forms or collocations, e.g. 2-grams of the pattern ''ADJ work'', to find the most frequent adjectives describing work. PIE also offers a phrase pattern discovery tool, ''phrase-frames'': sets of variants of an n-gram identical except for one word (wildcard symbol *). The most frequent and productive 4-frame is ''the * of the'', with variants such ''as the end of the'', ''the rest of the'', ''the top of the'', ''the nature of the'' Over the next year PIE will add: -- Click on an n-gram in the query results to see concordances from the BNC -- POS-grams and POS-frames for studying the relative productivity of phrase structures -- Filtering by text type (domain, genre, target audience) for contrastive studies -- Query by regular expression (currently only wildcards are supported) In addition, when POS-tagging of the Michigan Corpus of Academic Spoken English (MICASE) http://www.hti.umich.edu/micase/ is complete, a similar database will be created with those data. Finally, when a substantial portion of the American National Corpus (ANC) http://americannationalcorpus.org has been released, a third parallel database will be built. Together these databases will permit comparative studies of phraseology in the principal variants of English. Please note: - ''Unfiltered'' queries which match very large datasets can take several minutes to complete. Please be patient; read the tutorials and FAQ to focus your queries. - Users who cannot access the above site may use http://kwicfinder.com/BNC/ (please let me know so we can investigate) Acknowledgements Above all I am grateful to Michael Stubbs of the University of Trier for detailed suggestions and ongoing discussions that led to the creation and refinement of this site; even the ''easy as pie'' to remember acronym goes back to him. His research assistants contributed as well: Isabel Barth implemented the original phrase-frame generator and Katrin Ungeheuer offered valuable comments on organization and user-interface for query by text-type. Finally Lou Burnard of the BNC Consortium and David Lee of MICASE granted essential permissions and provided useful feedback on the site. All user feedback will be received enthusiastically! Bill Fletcher fletcher AT usna.edu fletcher AT kwicfinder.com http://pie.usna.edu http://kwicfinder.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- LINGUIST List: Vol-14-3465 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 13 06:44:03 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:44:03 EST Subject: Chess: Wood-Pusher (1923); Evergreen Partie (1852) Message-ID: WOOD PUSHER Some chess slang. Dan (Of DAN'S PAPERS) did a story about Kasparov playing a machine. The illustration had the machine taunting the human as a "woodpusher." OED has no entry; HDAS is not there yet; Jonathon Green's CDS has "1940s+." 7 January 1923, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 7, col. 6: _"Wood Pushers" vs. All Stars._ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- EVERGREEN PARTIE My old friend, Sam Sloan, is just as nutty and bizarre as ever. This letter is in Google Groups. "Evergreen Partie" could possibly be recorded. Subj: [sloanschesslist] The Evergreen Party Date: 12/12/2003 3:29:13 PM Eastern Standard Time From: sloan at ishipress.com Reply-to: sloanschesslist at yahoogroups.com To: Sam at samsloan.com Sent from the Internet (Details) The Evergreen Party Here is a story I have never told previously to anybody, not even to my mother, my wives or my children. It is about the time I formed a political party. I called it "The Evergreen Party". By the time I finish this, you will understand why I have never told anyone about this. It was 1973 and the City of New York was in great turmoil. Mayor John Lindsay was unpopular and unlikely to be re-elected and a couple of Mafia guys were trying to take over. Abe Beame was the leading candidate but seemed to be incompetent. At the same time, I was a big time operator. I had my own stock brokerage firm, a registered broker dealer, Samuel H. Sloan & Co. I was trading over 500 stocks at the same time and making big money. My funds were virtually unlimited. This was before the SEC moved in and closed me down. So, I decided to run for Mayor of New York City, figuring that I could win the election. I had enough money to run an effective campaign and Lindsay and his opponents were weak. To do this I needed a political party. So, I named it "The Evergreen Party". Every chess player in the world knows what the Evergreen Partie is, but if anybody out there reading this does not play chess, I will let you in on it. The Evergreen Partie is the name of a famous chess game, perhaps the most famous game of chess ever played. It was played in 1852. Every grandmaster in history has studied and played over this game. World Chess Champion Garry Kasparov recently published new analysis of it. It is called "Evergreen" because the game is so complex and beautiful, that every time somebody analyzes it they find something new. Here is the game: [Event "Evergreen Partie"] [Site "Berlin"] [Date "1852.??.??"] [White "Anderssen, Adolph "] [Black "Dufresne, Jean"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "C52"] [Round "?"] 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4 Bxb4 5. c3 Ba5 6. d4 exd4 7. O-O d3 8. Qb3 Qf6 9. e5 Qg6 10. Re1 Nge7 11. Ba3 b5 12. Qxb5 Rb8 13. Qa4 Bb6 14. Nbd2 Bb7 15. Ne4 Qf5 16. Bxd3 Qh5 17. Nf6+ gxf6 18. exf6 Rg8 19. Rad1 Qxf3 20. Rxe7+ Nxe7 21. Qxd7+ Kxd7 22. Bf5+ Ke8 23. Bd7+ Kf8 24. Bxe7+ 1-0 http://www.angelfire.com/games3/AJs01Downloads/html_stuff/anddufrpg0.html I realized of course that nobody who was not a chess player would know that the Evergreen Party was the name of a chess game. It is rare for a chess game to have a name. The only other examples are "The Immortal Game" and "The Game of the Century". The name, "The Evergreen Party", had a nice and attractive ring to it, so I decided to give that name to my political party. Since then, the Greens Party, which did not exist in 1973, has effectively co-opted that name. (...) From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Dec 13 17:59:44 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:59:44 -0500 Subject: "Stick a fork in him--he's done" (Dizzy Dean, 1944) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >"STICK A FORK IN HIM--HE'S DONE" > > A happy all-American phrase blend of baseball and barbecue. > I had found 1953, but I re-checked on the newly digitized THE SPORTING >NEWS and on Ancestry ("stick" + "fork" + pitcher"). Once again, Ancestry beat >THE SPORTING NEWS, and by a lot. ~~~~~~~ Along similar lines: We happened on the last minute of a (?)game show last night just as the emcee was saying, "Put a pat of butter on it. This show is toast!" A. Murie From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 13 18:28:02 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:28:02 -0500 Subject: fork-sticks and toast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:59 PM -0500 12/13/03, sagehen wrote: > >"STICK A FORK IN HIM--HE'S DONE" >> >> A happy all-American phrase blend of baseball and barbecue. >> I had found 1953, but I re-checked on the newly digitized THE SPORTING >>NEWS and on Ancestry ("stick" + "fork" + pitcher"). Once again, >>Ancestry beat >>THE SPORTING NEWS, and by a lot. > ~~~~~~~ >Along similar lines: >We happened on the last minute of a (?)game show last night just as the >emcee was saying, "Put a pat of butter on it. This show is toast!" >A. Murie Which for me, to return to the sports metaphors, brings to mind a rather unsuccessful defensive back for the New York Giants a while back named Elvis Patterson. He was universally known as "Toast" Patterson because he was so often "burned" (beaten for long and/or touchdown passes). larry From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Sat Dec 13 21:49:11 2003 From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 16:49:11 -0500 Subject: Millionaire Family? Message-ID: Anyone ever run across "millionaire (or "millionaire's") family," meaning a family that includes both male and female children (i.e., one in which clothes, etc. cannot be passed down)? -- Evan Morris words1 at word-detective.com www.word-detective.com From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Dec 13 21:58:19 2003 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:58:19 -0800 Subject: fork-sticks and toast In-Reply-To: <200312131028.1aveuK1A63NZFlq0@merlin> Message-ID: > >We happened on the last minute of a (?)game show last night just as the > >emcee was saying, "Put a pat of butter on it. This show is toast!" This would seem to have a different connotation than I've heard before. To me, when something is called "toast" it means more "done for" than simply "done" or over. More like "I'm in big trouble here." Has this changed to meaning merely over and quite benign? Rima From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 14 00:41:05 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 19:41:05 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Abstract Expressionism" In-Reply-To: <010601c3c135$e27b6170$15ab8e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: abstract expressionism (OED 1952) 1936 _Parnassus_ Apr. 28 The fourth floor is devoted to the non-geometrical abstract stuff: ... the movement, "abstract expressionism", from Gauguin to Kandinsky. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 14 01:06:07 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:06:07 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Ethnocentric" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ethnocentric (OED 1900) 1899 _Amer. Anthropologist_ I. 433 As the perception of relation proceeds, the lowly egocentric system becomes ethnocentric and then democentric. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 14 01:17:28 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:17:28 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Ethnocentric" Message-ID: >From the Newark(OH.) Daily Advocate, February 9, 1892. page ?, column 2: > Sam Clements Original Message ----- From: "Fred Shapiro" To: Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 8:06 PM Subject: Antedating of "Ethnocentric" > ethnocentric (OED 1900) > > 1899 _Amer. Anthropologist_ I. 433 As the perception of relation > proceeds, the lowly egocentric system becomes ethnocentric and then > democentric. > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 14 01:34:05 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:34:05 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Ethnolinguistic" In-Reply-To: <001901c3c1e0$0d5dec00$fc20a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: ethnolinguistic (OED 1920) 1917 _Geographical Journal_ Sept. 237 Achille Dardano ... Carta Etnico-Linguistica. ... In some respects the ethno-linguistic colouring has been revised and modified, and the position and tinting of the insets have been changed. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 14 03:57:41 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:57:41 -0500 Subject: Churrasco, Stone Soup, Empanada (1917) Message-ID: MISC.: I'll have to go to Washington on Monday to get two visas. I'll also be at the Library of Congress, if anyone wants anything. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ VAGABONDING DOWN THE ANDES: BEING THE NARRATIVE OF A JOURNEY, CHIEFLY AFOOT, FROM PANAMA TO BUENOS AIRES by Harry A. Franck New York: The Century Company 1917 OED has 1939 and 1949 for "churrasco." There are over 162,000 Google hits. I finally got the the NYPL to finish this book. It's one of Franck's longest (over 600 pages) and best. You've got to love the Quichua bread recipe on page 255. I'll also add the long "stone soup" (see ADS-L archives) on pages 396-397. Pg. 255: Amid the culinary operations suited to my case they gave me in detail the recipe of the _choclo tandas_--Quichua bread, probably used before the Conquest--that finally rounded off the repast late in the evening. Forthe benefit of housewives permit me to pass on the information: Cut off the kernels of green corn while still small and fairly soft. Crush them to a pulp--under a round stone on a broad flat one out beneath the thatches eaves, if it desired to keep the local color intact--sprinkling water lightly on the mass from time to time. WHen the whole has been reduced to a somewhat adhesive dough, wrap in cornhusks rolls of the stuff about the size and shape of an ear of corn and tie with strips of husk. Sit down on the earth floor in a corner of the hut--driving off the persistent guinea-pigs with any weapon at hand--and drop these packages one by one into a kettle of boiling water supported by three stones. Let boil from twenty minutes to a half hour--depending on the energy with which fagots have been gathered during the day--taking care that none of the gaunt curs prowling about between the legs of the cook and through other unexpected openings thrust their noses into the kettle, as they would be sure to be burned. Those who succeed in beginning the task while daylight still lingers should also beware any of the family chickens climbing to a convenient shoulder and springing in to the pot, as this would result, not in choclo tanda, but in _choclo tanda con gallina_, which is a far more expensive dish. Pg. 264: The first price covers a dozen delicacies, such as "patitas con arroz--pigs' feetlets with rice," fried brains, liver, or _chupe_, the Irish-stew of the Andes. Pg. 288: ...He prepared me a half-dozen _obleas_,--those saucer-shaped capsules of the Andean pharmacopoeia--of bismuth, prescribed a diet of _chochoca molida_--the Quichua-Spanish name for a thin cornmeal gruel--which might be substituted by chuno ingles, a sickly-sweet liquid starch--or wheat or rice soup, and assured me that I would be completely recovered in the morning. Pg. 308: This _chuno_--_chunu_, in Quichua--is the chief vegetable of Andean market-places and the principal food of the Indians of the Sierra. Pg. 325: ...unless it be some rare local delicacy, such as _asado de chivito_,--roast leg of young goat. Pg. 345: Here _cancha_, or toasted, ripe, shelled corn did duty as bread, and each helping of beef was flanked by boiled _chuno_, or small, frozen potatoes. Then there were _camotes de la sierra_, one of the several species of the potato family unknown in other lands, a soft, sweetish, mushy tuber of the shape of a large peanut, which it was a la mode to pick from the plate with the fingers, and dip before each bite into the general bowl of _aji_, the Incaic peppers so beloved of the ancient Peruvians. Pg. 356: The poncho-clad proprietor proceeded with fitting gravity to serve me a thoroughly (Pg. 357--ed.) peruvian meal, of which the chief ingredient was a _churrasco_, or steak, not of beef, as I at first fancied, but of llama, a favorite Huancavelican dish which would not exactly win the unstinted praise of an epicure. ("You want Mcllama with that?"--ed.) Pg. 396: There runs an Andean anecdote that well illustrates this characteristic. one of their own race, who had served in the army and learned other things without forgetting the ways of his own people, came at night to an Indian hut and requested lodging. When this was granted in the customary manner--merely by not being refused--he asked for food. "Manam cancha," came the expected reply. "Well, sell me something and I will cook for myself." "Manam cancha." The soldier was well aware that there were plenty of supplies hidden away in the hut. He knew, also, the Indian temperament. "Well, I suppose I'll have to get along on a chupe de guijarros," he sighed, using Spanish to make his speech more impressive. "A stone soup!" mumured the household, betrayed by astonishment into understanding a tongue they pretended not to know. "Yes, it is what we use in the army when there is nothing better." He wandered down to the mountain stream below the hut and, returning with a dozen large smooth pebbles, washed them carefully, and laid them out on his bundle. "You won't mind lending me an olla?" he murmured to the wall of expressionless faces about him. A woman brought the kettle in silence. The soldier, huming a barrack-room ballad, half-filled the pot with water, set it over the fire, dropped in the stones one by one, and squatted on his heels with a sigh of contentment. By and by he borrowed a wooden spoon and tasted the concoction from time to time, throwing the residue back into the kettle in approved Andean fashion. "You don't happen to have a bit of salt?" he murmured, after a time, to the family now gathered close around him watching this possible miracle silently but intently. "Cachi? That we have," said the woman, handing him a piece of purple rock, which he beat up and sprinkled into the now steaming pot. "Too bad I haven't a few potatoes to put in," he droned, as if to himself, "it would help the flavor." The old woman shambled away into the darkness of a far corner, and came back some time later to thrust silently toward him a handful of small potatoes, her eyes glued on the miraculous pot. When these were about half-boiled the soldier again broke off his song to mumur: "This is going to be one of the finest chupes de guijarros I've ever made. All it lacks now is a bit of aji to give it life." Pg. 397: The old woman muttered something to one of the ragged girls beside her, and the latter went to dig two red peppers out of the thatch. "A piece of cabbage would make it perfect," sighed the soldier. The Indians, too engrossed in the production of a stone soup, and too slow of mind to have caught up yet with the course of events, brought to light a small cabbage. By this time they were so consumed with curiosity that the old man asked innocently: "But do you make a stone soup without meat?" "Ah, to be sure, a strip of charqui always improves it," replied the soldier indifferent;y, "but..." A girl was sent to fetch a sheet of sun-dried beef, which the former conscript cut up slowly and dropped bit by bit into the now savory-smelling chupe. A half-hour later he lifted the kettle off the fire, the old woman handed him a gourd plate, and some cold boiled yuca as bread, and having given half to the family, he ate the stone soup with great relish--all except the dozen smooth, round stones at the bottom of the olla. Pg. 533: While we were swallowing chunks of this and of _empanada_, some one discovered that it was Christmas Eve. (See ADS-L archives. OED has 1939 and Merriam-Webster has "circa 1922" for "empanada"--ed.) Pg. 539: We ate great chunks of _empanisado_, and an hour after the best meal we should have jumped to accept an invitation to a fifteen-course dinner. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Dec 14 17:24:46 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:24:46 -0500 Subject: "Stay the Course" Message-ID: In addition to giving well-deserved credits to Fred Shapiro and Kathleen Miller, Safire's column this week asks about "stay the course," which he suggests may be rooted in a nautical metaphor. While he may be right, legal usage is also a possible source. Here are two early uses: "The defendant, by the practice of the court, has a right to surrender his principal, until eight days in term have elapsed after the return of the writ. This being the first day of the term, the defendant does not stand in need of our interference to make the surrender. If that be made in time, the proceedings in this suit will be stayed of course, on a proper application for the purpose." Ellis v. Hay, 1 Johns. Cas. 334 (N.Y.Sup. 1800). "I conceive that the true sense and sound construction of the acts of assembly, relative to this subject, require that the time which passed prior to the first, and subsequent to the last, act, suspending the operation of the limitation act, must be reckoned in computing the time the limitation act has run against the plaintiffs' right of action, before he commenced his suit; and that the suspending acts operated only to interrupt and stay the course of the act of limitations for the times respectively mentioned by them, and did not establish any other period than was before established for the commencement of its operation." Hicks' Ex'rs v. Pouncey, 1 Brev. 115, 3 S.C.L. 115, 1802 WL 521 (S.C.Const.App. Apr 1802). Admittedly, there is a problem with this possible origin: "Stay the course" in a legal sense means a halt or suspension of a legal proceeding. "Stay the course" in the modern sense means to persevere in a course of action to its conclusion. John Baker From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Dec 14 18:20:33 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:20:33 -0600 Subject: Bubba Bubba Bubba Message-ID: For those interested in interesting names and the role of humor in language, here's one about a man who changed his name to Bubba Bubba Bubba: _St. Louis Post-Dispatch_, Dec. 1, 2003, Section B (Metro), p. 3/1-3: title: "Name Change is Bubba-licious for Springfield, Ill., Man": "SPRINGFIELD, Ill. -- What's in a name? If you're the former Raymond Allen Gray Jr., only one word - Bubba. "The Springfield native legally changed his name this month to reflect his childhood nickname. His new first name? Bubba. His new middle name? Bubba. One guess what his new last name is. "The name change won't be hard to get used to because he has long been known as 'Bubba' or 'Bubby' Gray, said Bubba Bubba Bubba, 39. "Then a co-worker in the Illinois secretary of state's office started calling him Bubba Bubba Bubba in jest. Later another co-worker mistakenly thought that was his real name. "Bubba's new name became official Nov. 20. He's got a new drivers license. He said the reaction has been mostly positive." Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 14 20:48:58 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:48:58 EST Subject: Saddam hiding in hidden "Spider Hole." Message-ID: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/14/sprj.irq.main/index.html Unkempt, 'haggard' Saddam found in hidden hole near Tikrit Sunday, December 14, 2003 Posted: 3:13 PM EST BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- After months on the run from coalition forces, a disheveled Saddam Hussein was found hiding in a hidden hole near a farmhouse and was captured without firing a shot, coalition authorities announced Sunday. (...) (Hiding in a hidden hole? Who would have thought that he'd HIDE in a HIDDEN hole?--ed.) (...) Found hiding in a 'spider hole' The soldiers found Saddam hiding in what they called a "spider hole," six-to-eight feet deep, equipped with a rudimentary ventilation system and covered with bricks and dirt. Spider hole is the U.S.. a military term for such a camouflaged tunnel or hole in which an enemy can hide. (...) "Spider hole" is not in OED. There are almost a thousand Google hits, and tons of hits today....Spiderman could not be reached for comment. AOL is just as crazy and biased as ever. The "Welcome to AOL" screen runs the story along with two other stories--about FRIENDS stars and Christmas treats. All three stories get equal time on the screen. AOL adds: "Bush Promises 'Justice.'" Thanks for the quotes, AOL. Wouldn't want to be misled by "Bush promises justice." From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Dec 14 22:02:59 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:02:59 -0500 Subject: Saddam hiding in hidden "Spider Hole." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > "Spider hole" is not in OED. There are almost a thousand Google hits, > and tons of hits today....Spiderman could not be reached for comment. It is in the SOED. I first heard the term when I was in the Army, mid-80s. I suspect, but don't have the citations to prove it, that it dates to WWII. The use of spider-holes was a tactic used by Japanese snipers--but the term could have been applied retroactively. Until now, I only new the term as a type of fighting position, dug to be used in an ambush. It will be interesting to see if this incident spawns a new sense meaning a hiding place, as opposed to a place from which to spring an ambush. The metaphor is one of a spider that digs a hole and lies in wait for prey to come by as opposed to spinning a web. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 14 23:39:56 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:39:56 -0500 Subject: Saddam hiding in hidden "Spider Hole." Message-ID: Dave wins the prize. From the Zanesville(OH) Signal, February 1, 1945; page 12, column 1: <> {This was a story about the 96th Infantry in the Philippings} Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Wilton" To: Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Saddam hiding in hidden "Spider Hole." > > "Spider hole" is not in OED. There are almost a thousand Google hits, > > and tons of hits today....Spiderman could not be reached for comment. > > It is in the SOED. > > I first heard the term when I was in the Army, mid-80s. I suspect, but don't > have the citations to prove it, that it dates to WWII. The use of > spider-holes was a tactic used by Japanese snipers--but the term could have > been applied retroactively. > > Until now, I only new the term as a type of fighting position, dug to be > used in an ambush. It will be interesting to see if this incident spawns a > new sense meaning a hiding place, as opposed to a place from which to spring > an ambush. > > The metaphor is one of a spider that digs a hole and lies in wait for prey > to come by as opposed to spinning a web. > > --Dave Wilton > dave at wilton.net > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 14 23:40:31 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:40:31 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Microcomputer" In-Reply-To: <200312141724.hBEHOqn14413@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: microcomputer (OED3 1968) 1963 _Wash. Post_ 1 Mar. D8 All this would take is a clever surgeon to insert a microcomputer into the brain that would provide unlimited memory. 1964 _Microelectronics and Reliability_ Sept. 142 Microcomputer comes off the line. _Electronics_, p. 14 (Nov. 1963). Last week, completion of the first of the microelectronic computers for the Improved Minuteman ICBM was announced by the Autonetics division of North American Aviation. [I HAVE NOT CHECKED THE 1963 ARTICLE IN _ELECTRONICS_ TO SEE IF THE WORD OCCURS THERE] Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 14 23:50:55 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:50:55 -0500 Subject: "Stay the Course" Message-ID: I should also add my congrats to Fred and Kathleen. The earliest "stay the course" reference I can find is in Christine Ammer's Am. Heritage Dictionary of Idioms, talking about a 1916 horse race. Has this been antedated? And why the nautical sense that Safire referred to? SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Baker, John" To: Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 12:24 PM Subject: "Stay the Course" > In addition to giving well-deserved credits to Fred Shapiro and Kathleen Miller, Safire's column this week asks about "stay the course," which he suggests may be rooted in a nautical metaphor. While he may be right, legal usage is also a possible source. Here are two early uses: > > "The defendant, by the practice of the court, has a right to surrender his principal, until eight days in term have elapsed after the return of the writ. This being the first day of the term, the defendant does not stand in need of our interference to make the surrender. If that be made in time, the proceedings in this suit will be stayed of course, on a proper application for the purpose." Ellis v. Hay, 1 Johns. Cas. 334 (N.Y.Sup. 1800). > > "I conceive that the true sense and sound construction of the acts of assembly, relative to this subject, require that the time which passed prior to the first, and subsequent to the last, act, suspending the operation of the limitation act, must be reckoned in computing the time the limitation act has run against the plaintiffs' right of action, before he commenced his suit; and that the suspending acts operated only to interrupt and stay the course of the act of limitations for the times respectively mentioned by them, and did not establish any other period than was before established for the commencement of its operation." Hicks' Ex'rs v. Pouncey, 1 Brev. 115, 3 S.C.L. 115, 1802 WL 521 (S.C.Const.App. Apr 1802). > > Admittedly, there is a problem with this possible origin: "Stay the course" in a legal sense means a halt or suspension of a legal proceeding. "Stay the course" in the modern sense means to persevere in a course of action to its conclusion. > > John Baker > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 14 23:53:07 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:53:07 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Diskette" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: diskette (OED 1973 Oct.) 1973 _N.Y. Times_ 23 Jan. 51 The International Business Machines Corporation yesterday introduced a machine that enters data into a computer by using a new reusable storage device called the diskette. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Dec 15 00:24:43 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:24:43 -0500 Subject: "Stay the Course" In-Reply-To: <00bd01c3c29d$27652560$fc20a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Sam Clements > Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 6:51 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Stay the Course" > > > I should also add my congrats to Fred and Kathleen. > > The earliest "stay the course" reference I can find is in > Christine Ammer's > Am. Heritage Dictionary of Idioms, talking about a 1916 horse race. Has > this been antedated? And why the nautical sense that Safire referred to? A "stay" is a rope that supports a mast, esp. on a square-rigged vessel. It is found in various nautical phrases like "to miss stays" (to fail to come about). One could easily assume that "stay the course" has something to do with this, although the earliest citations I'm aware of refer to racing, not sailing. From douglas at NB.NET Mon Dec 15 00:57:20 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:57:20 -0500 Subject: "Stay the Course" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Brooklyn Daily Eagle", 29 Aug. 1886, p. 1, col. 2: "International Sculling Races": <> ---------- I suppose this is the sense in question: quasi-transitive "stay" = "remain [for]"/"endure" as in "stay the course", "stay the distance". In the 'opposite' sense with "stay" = "restrain"/"halt", it's "stay the course OF [something]". -- Doug Wilson From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Dec 15 02:46:25 2003 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herb Stahlke) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 20:46:25 -0600 Subject: "Stay the Course" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031214194944.046b46b0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: MSNBC.com has another of those grammar quizzes that tell us more about what Americans think grammar is about than about how grammar works. Mostly usage. http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/Features/Quiz/Quiz.aspx?QuizID=51 Herb From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 15 03:13:25 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:13:25 -0500 Subject: Spider Hole (1941, 1970) Message-ID: Oh, all right. I trudged through the rain to NYU to get this, from ProQuest. Damn you, Saddam! An interesting "spider hole" citation was also recorded in a journal OED should have heard of called AMERICAN SPEECH. It was written by someone named "Barnhart." (JSTOR) Of Matters Lexicographical: Keeping a Record of New English, 1963-1972 Clarence L. Barnhart American Speech, Vol. 45, No. 1/2. (Spring - Summer, 1970), pp. 98-107. Pg. 103: A barrage of new military terms, whose exact senses were not always clear, were used by the press, radio, and television: _gunship_. _medevac_, _airmobile_, _fleshette_, _firebase_, _claymore mine_, _Lazy Dog_, _incinderjell_, _Aircav_, _punji stick_, _spider hole_, _smart bomb_, _search-and-destroy_, _DMZ_, and _H and I_ (for _harassment and interdiction_). (PROQUEST) Photo Standalone 1 -- No Title The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 16, 1941. p. 2 (1 page): _SPIDER HOLE_--Soldiers at Camp Ord, Calif., one of the Nation's largest Military encampments, are learning to be expert camofleurs. Here two of the men demonstrate the Army's new "spider hole" method of hiding a soldier. Top--Corpl. George Jones points to the place where Private Dennis Duniphin is concealed. Lower--Up pops Duniphin, ready for action. Contest Based on Walt Disney's 'Fantasia' Once More Focuses Attention on Problem -- Belmont's Oils and the Clavilux By EDWARD ALDEN JEWELL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 8, 1941. p. X7 (1 page) Barse Miller continues to express himself in the medium as effectively as he does in oil. The thirty-one papers here assembled are for the most part very vigorously brushed, the technique "free," the mood romantic. (...) Excelllent also, to cite a few more examples, are...and "Spider Hole." Article 4 -- No Title By Homer Bigart. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Dec 17, 1944. p. B3 (1 page): Generally, however, they are snug in their spider holes and must be dug out with bayonet and grenade. Pacific Echoes GENE SHERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 4, 1945. p. 2 (1 page): On the knoll they found nearly 100 Jap spider holes, a sort of a circular fox hole into which the diminutive Nips can crouch. Pacific Echoes GENE SHERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 25, 1945. p. 2 (1 page) Va. Sergeant Uses 4 Bullets, Bayonet To Down 6 Japs The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jul 25, 1945. p. 3 (1 page): Suddenly six of them sprang from their "spider holes" and charged the patrol. Tear gas used again in Vietnam; Previous ban recalled Dense undergrowth By Takashi Oka Special correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Oct 11, 1965. p. 2 (1 page): The tunnel was found to hav been abandoned, but the 174rd (sic) hopes before the operation ends to prove that tear gas is a more humane weapon than bombs or grenades tossed into tunnels, spider holes, or bunkers. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 15 04:26:29 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 23:26:29 -0500 Subject: Ladino (1840); Soup House (1850); Ice House (1859) Message-ID: A few notes before I travel across four states at 4 a.m. to get a visa for Ghana. NYU is open until 3 a.m. during finals week, but when I came here yesterday, ProQuest was down for maintenance. I now see that the databases haven't been improved. I'll check the LOS ANGELES TIMES again later this week...I'm expecting 1950s "Margarita" and "Screwdriver." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ LADINO A WINTER IN THE WEST INDIES, DESCRIBED IN FAMILIAR LETTERS TO HENRY CLAY, OF KENTUCKY, BY JOSEPH JOHN GURNEY Second Edition New York: Negro Universities Press 1969 Originally published in 1840 by John Murray, London Pg. 6 (June 1, 1840): We were amused, one morning, by watching the motions of a great shark, called, from its known discernment and cunning, the "Sea lawyer." (OED has 1811, then 1876 for "sea lawyer"--ed.) Pg. 220 (July 1, 1840): In the much agitated case of the Amistad, the decision of the local courts of Connecticut, against the delivering up of the slaves, was grounded, as I understood, on the fact that these persons were not Ladinos--i. e. true Cuban slaves--but Bozals, who are no slaves at all, in the eye of the Spanish law. (OED's "ladino" has 1863 for "a stray animal," 1877 for "in Central America, a mestizo or a white person," and 1889 for the Sephardic Jewish language. Is the Amistad decision/"ladino" on WESTLAW?--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SOUP HOUSE IMPRESSIONS AND EXPERIENCES OF THE WEST INDIES AND NORTH AMERICA IN 1849 by Robert Baird Philadelphia: Lea & Blanchard 1850 OED has 1861 for "soup house" and 1839 for "soup kitchen" (see ADS-L archives). Pg. 52 (Antigua): The stranger visiting St. John's should certainly visit an institution there, denominated the Soup House--an institution which is, all circumstances considered, one of the most creditable to be found in the West Indies. Like most other establishments in St. John's having for their beneficent object the relief of human want, and the alleviation of human suffering, or the improvement of human nature, this institution is mainly indebted for its origin and foundation, and subsequent progress, to the exertions of the Rev. Archdeacon Hal- (Pg. 53--ed.) berton--a clergyman whose beneficent efforts, in the cause of Christian benevolence, all classes in the island agree in eulogising. The Soup House is so called from its having originated in a humble endeavour to supply soup to the indigent--its origin being so lowly that the first boiling or brewing took place under the shade of a tamarind-tree still in existence. To the soup or kitchen department there has been added an infirmary, a separate sailor's hospital in a different part of the town, and near the sea, and a lazar-house for the reception of patients deformed by that awful species of leprosy which attacks the black population (at least I did not see any white or coloured victims) in these islands. When I visited the institution, there were one hundred and thirty patients in the infirmary and sailors' hospital, and nearly thirty in the lazar-house; but these are of course in addition to the numerous body receiving outdoor relief. Pg. 135: ...--was asked by a genuine Yankee whether any of "these fixings"--pointing to a dish of tolerably cooked artichokes--was grown in the "old country." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ICE HOUSE THE WEST INDIES AND THE SPANISH MAIN by Anthony Trollope Gloucester: Alan Sutton Publishing Limited 1985 First Published 1859 OED's "ice house" has 1687 for "a structure..in which ice is stored," and 1857 for "a hut made of ice or snow." Pg. 155: And here it may be well to explain this very peculiar, delightful, but too dangerous West Indian institution. Ny-the-by, I do not know that there was any ice-house in Kingston, Jamaica. If there be one there, my friends were peculiarly backward, for I certainly was not made acquainted with it. But everywhere else--at Demerara, Trinidad, Barbados, and St. Thomas--I was duly introduced to the ice-house. There is something cool and mild in the name, which makes one fancy that ladies would delight to frequent it. But alas! a West Indian ice-house is but a drinking-shop--a place where one goes to liquor, as the Americans call it, without the knowledge of the feminine creation. It is a drinking-shop, at which the draughts are all cool, are all iced, but at which, alas! they are also all strong. The brandy, I fear, is as essential as the ice. A man may, it is true, drink iced soda-water without any concomitant, or he may simply have a few drops of raspberry vinegar to flavour it. No doubt many an easy-tempered wife so imagines. But if so, I fear that they are deceived. Now the ice-house in Bridgetown seemed to me to be peculiarly well attended. I look upon this as the effect of the white streets and the fusty shops. A GLIMPSE OF THE TROPICS OR, FOUR MONTHS CRUISING IN THE WEST INDIES by E. A. Hastings Jay London: Sampson Low, Marston & Company, Limited 1900 Pg. 28 (Barbados): We drove to the Ice-house in the centre of the town (famous for flying-fish and West Indian cocktails), where I was to spend the first night before moving to Harrison College, which, through the kindness of the masters, was my headquarters during my visit to the islands. Pg. 277 (The Blue Mountains): On the broad platform or "barbecue" used for drying the coffee we performed our toilet, shivering with cold in the mountain air. (So much for West Indian BBQ--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 15 05:17:31 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 00:17:31 -0500 Subject: Safire on "Spider Hole" Message-ID: Ummm, ahhhhhhh..."spider hole" was in the historical NEW YORK TIMES. You write a letter to the editor. Anyone. Me, I can barely control myself after reading the City section celebrate itself for 10 great years covering New York City. (That's how long it's been. I don't deserve fire exits.) http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/15/opinion/15SAF1.htm OP-ED COLUMNIST >From the 'Spider Hole' By WILLIAM SAFIRE Published: December 15, 2003 (...) Another useful bit of information is the origin of "spider hole," a phrase used by Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez to describe the dugout hiding place in which the fugitive Saddam was cowering. This is Army lingo from the Vietnam era. The Vietcong guerrillas dug "Cu Chi tunnels" often connected to what the G.I.'s called "spider holes" — space dug deep enough for the placement of a clay pot large enough to hold a crouching man, covered by a wooden plank and concealed with leaves. When an American patrol passed, the Vietcong would spring out, shooting. But the hole had its dangers; if the pot broke or cracked, the guerrilla could be attacked by poisonous spiders or snakes. Hence, "spider hole." (...) From douglas at NB.NET Mon Dec 15 05:42:07 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 00:42:07 -0500 Subject: Safire on "Spider Hole" In-Reply-To: <474D37F5.2540CE72.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: >... if the pot broke or cracked, the guerrilla could be attacked by >poisonous spiders or snakes. Hence, "spider hole." This is very unlikely as an explanation for the name, IMHO. Why would such a story be put forth? Surely "spider hole" means a pit covered by a trapdoor ... i.e., a hole like that inhabited by a "trapdoor spider" ... at least that would be anybody's assumption unless there is strong evidence otherwise. I think it's the size and shape of the hole and its door or cover which gives the "spider hole" its name. The original type holds (of course) a spider, and the hole is the spider's home, where it keeps its infant offspring and maybe its latest catch and that's about it. The military version holds a soldier and his necessities. Like the spider, he can ambush weaker creatures from the hole ... and it also provides concealment from stronger creatures. "Spider hole" = "camouflaged foxhole" is in MW3. Are ratholes, foxholes, and priest holes so named because of dangers to the occupants from rats, foxes, and priests respectively? -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 15 07:28:23 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:28:23 EST Subject: Nose Tackle (1977); No-Huddle (1984) Message-ID: The OED came out with its latest list of revisions/additions on December 11th, but I still haven't received it in an e-mail. Maybe today (Monday). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- NOSE TACKLE "Clone the nose?" --Woody Allen, SLEEPER OED has 10 September 1978 WASHINGTON POST for "nose tackle." 21 December 1977, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 23, col. 3: LOOK FOR Curly Culp to be some place other than Houston next season. The big nose tackle is very unhappy about his contract not being renegotiated by the Oilers. 28 January 1978, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 13, col. 1: Nose tackle Rubin Carter complained when grits were missing (Col. 2--ed.) from his breakfast menu and running back Otis Armstrong found reasons to lodge a beef, under Gradishar's guidance, when he discovered cockroaches where they were not intended to be. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- NO HUDDLE OED has 12 October 1958 for the adjective and 11 October 1984 for the noun. 29 October 1984, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 52, col. 1: No huddle. No running backs. Five speedy and interchangeable wide receivers on the outside. (Col. 3--ed.) But like a good cook with a special recipe, Cooley isn't giving too many of his seecret ingredients, although he admits the key to the whole setup is the no-huddle concept. (No. The key to the whole concept is having Jerry Rice to throw to--ed.) From mlv at POBOX.COM Mon Dec 15 17:07:30 2003 From: mlv at POBOX.COM (Michael Vezie) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:07:30 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Microcomputer" In-Reply-To: <20031215050303.6AD6E4564@majesty.pobox.com> Message-ID: >Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:40:31 -0500 >From: Fred Shapiro > > microcomputer (OED3 1968) > 1963 _Wash. Post_ 1 Mar. D8 All this would take is a clever surgeon to > insert a microcomputer into the brain that would provide unlimited memory. Forgive me for butting in if I'm not welcome (no linguistic education or anything), but that seems to be describing a nanocomputer, not what we think of now as a microcomputer. It seems to me that it wouldn't make sense to use that as an antedating of "microcomputer". But maybe I'm wrong. I'll go back to lurking now. Michael From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Mon Dec 15 17:47:11 2003 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:47:11 -0500 Subject: Spider Hole (1941, 1970) Message-ID: In Vietnam, a camouflaged cover or lid was an essential element of a spider hole, distinguishing it from a fox hole. In the ideal, what makes a spider hole a spider hole is that one could stand on top of it and not see it, and yet the occupant could quickly pop up the lid, shoot, and drop the lid back down. Bunkers, always covered, could be camouflaged, too, but they were distinguished from fox holes and spider holes by being larger and usually reinforced. It will warm the cockles of many a heart on this list to know that these terms were not used with scientific rigor either in the field or as translated in the press. >From descriptions of Saddam's hiding place, I'd say it could be called a bunker, but spider hole seems more appropriate. How about updating "priest hole" to "tyrant hole"? Incidentally, is "camofleur" in the 1941 citation correct, anywhere? The French for "to camouflage (disguise)" is "camoufler". AHD4 has "camouflager" as the English for "one who camouflages". Seán Fitzpatrick Violence may not solve things, but it can sure as hell settle them. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM Sent: Sunday, 14 December, 2003 22:13 Subject: Spider Hole (1941, 1970) (PROQUEST) Photo Standalone 1 -- No Title The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 16, 1941. p. 2 (1 page): _SPIDER HOLE_--Soldiers at Camp Ord, Calif., one of the Nation's largest Military encampments, are learning to be expert camofleurs. Here two of the men demonstrate the Army's new "spider hole" method of hiding a soldier. Top--Corpl. George Jones points to the place where Private Dennis Duniphin is concealed. Lower--Up pops Duniphin, ready for action. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 15 18:49:46 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:49:46 -0500 Subject: December's OED News; Saddam & Hot Dogs Message-ID: DECEMBER'S OED NEWS Greetings from the Library of Congress. As expected, the December OED News letter arrived today. "Panna cotta" I gotta do now? Subj: Oxford English Dictionary News Date: 12/15/2003 7:48:32 AM Eastern Standard Time From: "TOWSEY, David" To: oednews-l at oed.com Reply-To: worldinfo at oed.com Sent from the Internet (Details) I am writing to let you know that the latest issue of OED News is now available at http://dictionary.oed.com/newsletters/2003-12/, in both HTML and PDF format. In addition to John Simpson's selection of words with interesting etymologies, which I mentioned in an earlier email, this issue of the newsletter includes an interview with Abigail Reynolds, the OED's Artist in Residence. This is a new enterprise for the Dictionary, and promises to be a thought-provoking few months, as should be apparent from Abigail's conversation with my colleague Philip Durkin. As usual, we also include a list of Appeals for help with particular words: for example, do you recall having read of someone being described as "pig-ugly" before 1983? Or did you make "panna cotta", or see it on a menu, before 1989? If you can help with any of the words listed, please e-mail oed3 at oup.com OED News contains articles by editors, researchers, and contributors on their work for the OED, and regular updates on the progress of the £35 million/US$55 million revision programme, and is published quarterly. We will let you know by e-mail as soon as each issue is published, to keep you informed about the latest news and developments on the OED. I hope that you enjoy reading OED News. Peter Gilliver Associate Editor, Oxford English Dictionary =================================================== Visit our web site at http://www.oed.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ OT: SADDAM & HOT DOGS Hot dogs???? At least he wasn't eating a "hero." http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA47THG8OD.html Dec 15, 2003 Candy Bars, Hot Dogs and Dirty Dishes in Saddam's Hideaway By Alexandar Vasovic Associated Press Writer ADWAR, Iraq (AP) - The yard was a mess, the laundry wasn't done, the pantry was bare and the only art on the wall was a poster of Noah's Ark. Saddam Hussein's hideaway on a farmhouse in northern Iraq looked more like a derelict property abandoned by squatters than the lavish palaces he had lived in for years. ___ In the makeshift kitchen, a small fridge contained a few Bounty candy bars, some hot dogs and a can of 7-UP. There was old bread on a counter, leftover rice in a pot and dirty dishes in the sink. ___ From mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 15 19:09:55 2003 From: mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:09:55 -0500 Subject: trying to cancel at one address Message-ID: I sent the appended message from my old email address, at an account that I still use. I didn't get a bounce on it, but the mail keeps coming. Someone help, please. (I'm not leaving the list, just switching the subscription to my office e-dress.) -- Mark A. Mandel ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:09:58 -0500 From: Mark A Mandel To: LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: signoff ADS-L signoff ADS-L From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Dec 15 20:07:20 2003 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:07:20 -0500 Subject: Soup House (1850) Message-ID: Hadn't occurred to me that this might be an antedating: New Soup House. [headline] [the managers acknowledge contributions; they gave out “this forenoon” 2831 rations.] The time of distribution is from 9 o’clock till 11. The Columbian, February 18, 1817, p. 2, col. 1; [a soup house, in Franklin street, near the Arsenal; 800 supplied; others turned away; plans for doubling the quantity of soup; request for donations] N-Y G&GA, February 18, 1817, p. 2, col. 1; [report from the managers of the soup house] N-Y G&GA, March 11, 1817, p. 2, col. 1; National Advocate, March 12, 1817, p. 2, cols. 4-5 The passages in [] are paraphrases, not direct quotations, but the Feb. 18 headline is a direct quote, and the phrase "soup house" no doubt does appear in the other stories as well. I will check upon request. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM Date: Sunday, December 14, 2003 11:26 pm Subject: Ladino (1840); Soup House (1850); Ice House (1859) > A few notes before I travel across four states at 4 a.m. to get > a visa for Ghana. > NYU is open until 3 a.m. during finals week, but when I came > here yesterday, ProQuest was down for maintenance. I now see that > the databases haven't been improved. I'll check the LOS ANGELES > TIMES again later this week...I'm expecting 1950s "Margarita" and > "Screwdriver." > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > LADINO > > A WINTER IN THE WEST INDIES, > DESCRIBED IN FAMILIAR LETTERS TO HENRY CLAY, OF KENTUCKY, > BY JOSEPH JOHN GURNEY > Second Edition > New York: Negro Universities Press > 1969 > Originally published in 1840 > by John Murray, London > > Pg. 6 (June 1, 1840): We were amused, one morning, by watching > the motions of a great shark, called, from its known discernment > and cunning, the "Sea lawyer." > (OED has 1811, then 1876 for "sea lawyer"--ed.) > > Pg. 220 (July 1, 1840): In the much agitated case of the Amistad, > the decision of the local courts of Connecticut, against the > delivering up of the slaves, was grounded, as I understood, on the > fact that these persons were not Ladinos--i. e. true Cuban slaves-- > but Bozals, who are no slaves at all, in the eye of the Spanish law. > (OED's "ladino" has 1863 for "a stray animal," 1877 for "in > Central America, a mestizo or a white person," and 1889 for the > Sephardic Jewish language. Is the Amistad decision/"ladino" on > WESTLAW?--ed.) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > SOUP HOUSE > > IMPRESSIONS AND EXPERIENCES OF THE WEST INDIES AND NORTH AMERICA > IN 1849 > by Robert Baird > Philadelphia: Lea & Blanchard > 1850 > > OED has 1861 for "soup house" and 1839 for "soup kitchen" (see > ADS-L archives). > > Pg. 52 (Antigua): The stranger visiting St. John's should > certainly visit an institution there, denominated the Soup House-- > an institution which is, all circumstances considered, one of the > most creditable to be found in the West Indies. Like most other > establishments in St. John's having for their beneficent object > the relief of human want, and the alleviation of human suffering, > or the improvement of human nature, this institution is mainly > indebted for its origin and foundation, and subsequent progress, > to the exertions of the Rev. Archdeacon Hal- (Pg. 53--ed.) berton-- > a clergyman whose beneficent efforts, in the cause of Christian > benevolence, all classes in the island agree in eulogising. > The Soup House is so called from its having originated in a > humble endeavour to supply soup to the indigent--its origin being > so lowly that the first boiling or brewing took place under the > shade of a tamarind-tree still in existence. To the soup or > kitchen department there has been added an infirmary, a separate > sailor's hospital in a different part of the town, and near the > sea, and a lazar-house for the reception of patients deformed by > that awful species of leprosy which attacks the black population > (at least I did not see any white or coloured victims) in these > islands. When I visited the institution, there were one hundred > and thirty patients in the infirmary and sailors' hospital, and > nearly thirty in the lazar-house; but these are of course in > addition to the numerous body receiving outdoor relief. > > Pg. 135: ...--was asked by a genuine Yankee whether any of "these > fixings"--pointing to a dish of tolerably cooked artichokes--was > grown in the "old country." > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > ICE HOUSE > > THE WEST INDIES AND THE SPANISH MAIN > by Anthony Trollope > Gloucester: Alan Sutton Publishing Limited > 1985 > First Published 1859 > > OED's "ice house" has 1687 for "a structure..in which ice is > stored," and 1857 for "a hut made of ice or snow." > > Pg. 155: And here it may be well to explain this very peculiar, > delightful, but too dangerous West Indian institution. Ny-the-by, > I do not know that there was any ice-house in Kingston, Jamaica. > If there be one there, my friends were peculiarly backward, for I > certainly was not made acquainted with it. But everywhere else-- > at Demerara, Trinidad, Barbados, and St. Thomas--I was duly > introduced to the ice-house. > There is something cool and mild in the name, which makes one > fancy that ladies would delight to frequent it. But alas! a West > Indian ice-house is but a drinking-shop--a place where one goes to > liquor, as the Americans call it, without the knowledge of the > feminine creation. It is a drinking-shop, at which the draughts > are all cool, are all iced, but at which, alas! they are also all > strong. The brandy, I fear, is as essential as the ice. A man > may, it is true, drink iced soda-water without any concomitant, or > he may simply have a few drops of raspberry vinegar to flavour it. > No doubt many an easy-tempered wife so imagines. But if so, I > fear that they are deceived. Now the ice-house in Bridgetown > seemed to me to be peculiarly well attended. I look upon this as > the effect of the white streets and the fusty shops. > > > A GLIMPSE OF THE TROPICS > OR, FOUR MONTHS CRUISING IN THE WEST INDIES > by E. A. Hastings Jay > London: Sampson Low, Marston & Company, Limited > 1900 > > Pg. 28 (Barbados): We drove to the Ice-house in the centre of the > town (famous for flying-fish and West Indian cocktails), where I > was to spend the first night before moving to Harrison College, > which, through the kindness of the masters, was my headquarters > during my visit to the islands. > > Pg. 277 (The Blue Mountains): On the broad platform or "barbecue" > used for drying the coffee we performed our toilet, shivering with > cold in the mountain air. > > (So much for West Indian BBQ--ed.) > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Dec 15 20:56:45 2003 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:56:45 -0500 Subject: e-ologism? Message-ID: I have just discovered (via my electronic in-basket) that Governor McGreevey of New Jersey has set up an electronic circular known as "Governor McGreevey's E-Genda" - Jim Landau From stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 15 22:07:11 2003 From: stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM (PL) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:07:11 -0800 Subject: present tense + "for/since" Message-ID: Hi all. I have a question on syntax for you. Can you think of any frequent idiomatic examples of a present tense, instead of the present perfect, followed by "for" or "since" to talk about duration ("...since 1930... for 80 years now"). Do you often use the present in such structures in your own idiolect? What differences can you find in using the present over the "more regular" perfective tense? Thanks, Pete __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 15 22:08:45 2003 From: stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM (PL) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:08:45 -0800 Subject: "home attendant" Message-ID: Hello to all linguists and language lovers. Can you help me define the words below? What does a "home attendant" do exactly? Is it usually a live-in professional? Does s/he take care of a person also from a medical point of view? What term would you more commonly use to refer to a person who keeps an elderly person company, goes out with him/her for a daily walk, helps with a few chores, etc. Is "home help / -er" used at all in the US? Is it synonymous with "home attendant"? What duties are involved in this type of job? Best, Pete __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Dec 16 00:05:15 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:05:15 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Microcomputer" In-Reply-To: <20031215170730.GA19285@mlvezie.org> Message-ID: > >Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:40:31 -0500 > >From: Fred Shapiro > > > > microcomputer (OED3 1968) > > 1963 _Wash. Post_ 1 Mar. D8 All this would take is a clever surgeon to > > insert a microcomputer into the brain that would provide > unlimited memory. > > Forgive me for butting in if I'm not welcome (no linguistic > education or anything), > but that seems to be describing a nanocomputer, not what we think > of now as a > microcomputer. It seems to me that it wouldn't make sense to use > that as an > antedating of "microcomputer". > > But maybe I'm wrong. I'll go back to lurking now. No, you're not wrong. This is a distinctly different sense of the word. The cites in the OED (1968-84) all refer to what we would now call a "personal computer" or "PC". This sense was common in the early days when Commodore 64s ruled the earth and Apple IIs roamed free, but faded as PCs became more powerful and edged "mini-computers" (the size of a large desk) and even "mainframes" (the size of a room) out of the picture. You see the size progression: mainframe to mini to micro. This 1963 sense, as well as the 2000 sense in the OED3, refer to something even smaller. From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 16 01:31:36 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:31:36 EST Subject: the best dictionaries Message-ID: A friend asked me, "How do you know what the BEST dictionaries are?" How do professional linguists and lexicographers answer that question? From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 16 01:34:23 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:34:23 -0500 Subject: the best dictionaries In-Reply-To: <73.39055a6a.2d0fba78@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 08:31:36PM -0500, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > A friend asked me, "How do you know what the BEST dictionaries are?" > > How do professional linguists and lexicographers answer that question? Well, professional lexicographers just say, "Mine is the best." :-) Jesse Sheidlower OED From Vocabula at AOL.COM Tue Dec 16 01:45:03 2003 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:45:03 EST Subject: the best dictionaries Message-ID: > A friend asked me, "How do you know what the BEST dictionaries are?" > How do professional linguists and lexicographers answer that question? >Well, professional lexicographers just say, "Mine is the best." Coming in the fall of 2004, "The Dictionary of Disagreeable English: Ignominies of Grammar and Usage," appendix A of which is titled "The Fiske Ranking of College Dictionaries," which will identify the worst of them. Preorder yours today: http://www.vocabula.com/VRorder.htm Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review www.vocabula.com ______________________ The Vocabula Review A measly $8.95 a year www.vocabula.com ______________________   Five by Fiske: The five essays included in this volume are as follows: "The Decline of the Dictionary"; "The Perfectibility of Words" and "The Imperfectibility of People," chapters 1 and 2 of The Dictionary of Concise Writing; "Expressions That Dull Our Reason and Dim Our Insight" and "Writing That Demands to Be Read Aloud, Speech That Calls to Be Captured in Print," chapters 1 and 2 of The Dimwit's Dictionary. http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooks.htm#VRfiveby ______________________ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 United States Tel: (781) 861-1515 From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM Tue Dec 16 02:10:50 2003 From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 21:10:50 -0500 Subject: the best dictionaries Message-ID: Answers to "How do linguists and lexicographers know which is the BEST dictionary" are complicated, at least. Theory, practice, and market all impinge on the answers. The best answers evolve in discussion and argument, over time, and one can trace them in "Dictionaries: Journal of the Dictionary Society of North America" and the "International Journal of Lexicography," as well as in articles and books written over the centuries. Those interested should consider joining the Dictionary Society of North America and/or EURALEX. Membership in the former is considerably less expensive than membership in the latter. The question is an excellent one. Perhaps the 2005 issue of "Dictionaries" should be devoted to answering it -- if anyone reading this list would like to write a sustained argument in response to the question, he or she should propose an article by 15 March 2004 to Michael Adams at MAdams1448 at aol.com. From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Dec 16 02:42:44 2003 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:42:44 -0800 Subject: the best dictionaries In-Reply-To: <200312151732.1aw44d42d3NZFkN0@swallow> Message-ID: >How do professional linguists and lexicographers answer that question? You mean aside from saying whichever has my name in it? Realistically, I think we each have our preferences for various reasons - and I try to take into account the needs of the person who's asking. First of all is the question of unabridged vs desk sizes, then perhaps the need for more or less historical information, etc. Rima From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Dec 16 02:42:54 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:42:54 -0600 Subject: the best dictionaries Message-ID: I suppose the return question would be: "Best for what?" Gerald Cohen -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of RonButters at AOL.COM Sent: Mon 12/15/2003 7:31 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: the best dictionaries A friend asked me, "How do you know what the BEST dictionaries are?" How do professional linguists and lexicographers answer that question? From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Tue Dec 16 03:04:51 2003 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:04:51 -0500 Subject: the best dictionaries In-Reply-To: <73.39055a6a.2d0fba78@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > A friend asked me, "How do you know what the BEST dictionaries are?" > > How do professional linguists and lexicographers answer that question? > "What is the best dictionary?" is *almost* a nonsensical question -- it's like "What is the best pair of shoes?" The missing part of that question is "for me, for what I want to do?" Dictionaries have many uses -- not just "looking up definitions" but "discovering etymologies," "playing Scrabble," "browsing," "pronunciations," "dropping from the castle walls onto besiegers," etc. There has never been a dictionary yet that is all things to all people, and for that we should be thankful. How very boring it would be without dictionaries to argue over! (And how very large and unwieldy that all-to-all dictionary would be.) All lexicographers (and their fifth-column sympathizers in other fields) should take every opportunity to replace the notion of "The Dictionary" with specific instances actual dictionaries. It's easier, but by no means simple, to point to a particular book or books and say "This is a bad dictionary," but that is also an incomplete statement. Many people (many, many more people than I would like) use what I would consider to be "bad dictionaries" every day and suffer no lasting harm, or, truth be told, any harm at all. If you only need to know how many "c's" are in "recommend," or how to pronounce "macabre," or (heh, heh) whether you REALLY mean "disinterested" or "uninterested," it has to be a very, very bad dictionary indeed to steer you wrong. Would people who have "bad" dictionaries lead better, happier, more fulfilled and productive lives if they had "better" dictionaries? I'd like to think so (and I try very hard to convince people of this), but hard evidence is lacking. Saying this, I can hear somebody, faintly, in the distance, muttering that Johnsonian saw about "Dictionaries are like watches, the worst is better than none and even the best is not quite true." Dictionaries today are even more like watches than they were in Johnson's time. But the existence of the cheap $6 digital (that breaks the first time you forget to take it off while washing the dishes) doesn't stop the atomic-clock people from spending billions to determine the exact time down to the vacillation of a single electron. And just as the electron-vacillation technology (eventually) makes its way down to the $6 digital (or perhaps somewhere just above that point) the research that we do for the "best" dictionaries makes its way down to the book equivalent of the $6 watch. To summarize (which means [help me out here discourse-analysts] "I should have stopped typing several paragraphs back"): dictionaries are not one-size-fits-all, there is no such thing as "THE DICTIONARY," and we are in a blessed time in human history, a golden age where there is a dictionary for every need, taste, and station, so much so that we are spoiled for choice and, in fact, so much so that there is no excuse for not owning as many dictionaries as you have pairs of shoes (or at least watches). Erin McKean From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 16 04:00:54 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:00:54 -0500 Subject: Life in Spigotty Land (14 March 1908) Message-ID: The PANAMA SUN & HERALD didn't turn up a "spigotty" in a short search. Harry A. Franck's ZONE POLICEMAN 88 (1913) wasn't the first citation. I checked the SATURDAY EVENING POST, as Sam Clements suggested. It's there. This is the fifth time I've tried to send this post...I'm booked for Panama in sixty days (February 15). 14 March 1908, SATURDAY EVENING POST, pg. 3, col. 1: _LIFE IN SPIGOTTY LAND_ _Something About the Cheerful Side of Canal-Digging_ _By Samuel G. Blythe_ GET a carriage," said the man in the white duck suit, as we stood on the steps of the Tivoli Hotel, "and it will cost you twenty cents, Spigotty. I'd get a driver who can talk English, too, if I were you, instead of a Spigotty driver. it might save a row if you want to make more than one trip. "Spigotty?" Iasked. "What's Spigotty?" "Why," he replied, surprised at my ignorance, "a Spigotty is a native, of course." That was my first morning on the Isthmus. Before noon I had added the word to my vocabulary, for every American down there has cast aside the cumbrous "Panamanian." Whatever is native is Spigotty. It is the broad, comprehensive term which the men who are digging the canal have applied to the small brown persons who inhabit the Republic of Panama, their products, habits, customs, money and morals. So far as the money is concerned it is synonymous with "tin" money or "monkey" money, and means that what the Spigotty folks fondly call a dollar, the same having been minted for them in Philadelphia by our paternal and protective Government at cost, is worth fifty cents. It is a good term, too, for most of the things Panamanian look Spigotty, if you can imagine that. It comes from the earliest days of the American invasion to dig the canal, when there was nothing along what is now the populous, busy and clean Canal Zone but a few miles of jungle-grown ditch left by the French, much rusted French machinery, yellow fever, mosquitoes, dirt and desolation. The early Americans found the Panama people haughty in the possession of their new republic, which had been made over night for them by our aforesaid paternal and protective Government, we needing a republic there smaller in extent than Colombia, but most anxious to reap the benefits of intimate association with these curious people from the North, who insisted on digging a ditch across the Isthmus when there was already a railroad there, to say nothing of good _cayuco_ traveling on the Chagres River part of the way and a trail that could be used at a pinch. All Americans are alike. They don not bother to learn foregin languages when they go to a foreign country, but they force the natives to learn American. So, when the Panamanians presented themselves, if they could talk English, they prefaced their attempts to cheat the Americans out of something--it really made little difference what--with the statement, accompanied by eloquent gestures: "Spik d' English." If they couldn't they said: "No spik d' English." One or the other was the universal opening of conversation, andthose early Americnas soon classed the whole race of men who could or could not "Spik d' Eng." as "Spikities," and from that grew the harmonious and descriptive Spigotty. From douglas at NB.NET Tue Dec 16 05:02:45 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:02:45 -0500 Subject: Spider Hole (1941, 1970) In-Reply-To: <481224C6.7489696F.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: "Camoufleur" is AFAIK an OK English word: it's in English dictionaries (MW3, EB Funk & Wagnalls). BTW, I don't see it as a headword in the French Academy dictionary (although it occurs in French on the Web, apparently in expected senses). "Camofleur" is a misspelling, I think: like "camoflage" which seems to be a frequent one ... maybe because of the abbreviation "camo"? -- Doug Wilson From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 16 07:05:07 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 02:05:07 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20the=20best=20dictio?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?naries?= Message-ID: In a message dated 12/15/03 8:34:34 PM, jester at PANIX.COM writes: > Well, professional lexicographers just say, "Mine is the best." > And why should we buy yours rather than someone else's? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 16 07:15:34 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 02:15:34 EST Subject: Nose Guard (1966) and Nose Tackle (1977) Message-ID: These two Eskimos were rubbing noses, and then the jilted husband/wife comes in and makes a "nose tackle." These etymologies are simple. The newly revised OED has "nose guard" from 1974. "Nose guard" came before "nose tackle." If the "nose guard" makes a "tackle," that comes up as a "nose tackle" hit on the idiotic Ancestry search engine, making life diificult. Here's a bit more on the nose. 22 October 1966, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 37, col. 1: Gossett is especially proud of LaGrones's starring role in his movies because at "nose" guard, usually defenders are lost in the trenches of line play. 24 October 1966, CHILICOTHER CONSTITUTION-TRIBUNE (Chilicothe, Missouri), pg. 2?, col. 7: The early loss of nose guard Granville Liggins hurt the Sooners. 10 December 1966, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 7, col. 2: Nose guard John LaGrone has already been named to most of the All- (Col. 3--ed.) America teams,... 8 December 1977, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. D-10, col. 1 (AP football story): "It's become a tighter race, but it's still ours to win," New Orleans nose tackle Jim Wilks said. From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Dec 16 07:37:52 2003 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:37:52 -0800 Subject: the best dictio naries In-Reply-To: <200312152305.1aw9gN4Yy3NZFkD0@kite> Message-ID: >And why should we buy yours rather than someone else's? Because I'm the one you're asking, silly... Rima From orinkh at CARR.ORG Tue Dec 16 13:35:00 2003 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:35:00 -0500 Subject: the best dictionaries Message-ID: An interesting layman’s view about which dictionaries are best can be found at http://slate.msn.com//?id=2091949& Notice of this article was recently posted to the DSNA list. Readers of this thread may find it interesting as well. Speaking as one who has contributed to dictionaries from 7 foreign (mostly UK) and 4 US publishers, and with malice toward none of these but with prejudices toward a few: there are vast differences in the ways that publishers organize the dictionary production process, and their success at doing this — planning the thing properly in the first place, recognizing where problems exist, and having the infrastructure in place to correct them efficiently — has a demonstrable effect on the quality of the finished product. That said, I think that many such quality issues are not apparent to a majority of dictionary users, and it is after all they who buy dictionaries. A huge amount of consultation of other dictionaries goes on in the process of creating any given dictionary, and I have found in interesting to observe which dictionaries lexicographers regard as absolutely necessary to consult (at one extreme), and which dictionaries that are not even considered or found in dictionary publishers’ offices (at the other) in this process. If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, a pretty good metric could be devised for ranking dictionaries by the frequency of this sort of consultation. But of course it would be invidious to name names. It would be nice to think that dictionaries could be rated by which names appear on the “football team” page, as some posters have (facetiously, I think) suggested. If this is so I would have to note, with mild chagrin, that three of the four ditionaries I consult most do not have my name in them, and many that I have contributed to gather dust on my shelves! Orin Hargraves From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Dec 16 14:11:42 2003 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:11:42 -0500 Subject: the best dictionaries In-Reply-To: <73.39055a6a.2d0fba78@aol.com> Message-ID: Before I started working for OUP, I usually recommended MW10 or MW11 as a general-use dictionary, but now I just tell people they can eliminate a slew of bad dictionaries by looking up "fuck." It it's missing, don't buy. Either the word has been omitted for space reasons (meaning, to me, that the dictionary has insufficient coverage), or it has been omitted for prescriptivist, religious, or moral reasons (meaning, to me, that there may be other biases of which I am unaware). I've been looking for a politer, similar bellwether word, but I can't find a good one. I tried "ixnay" but too many good dictionaries don't have it. I am about to give a full-coverage descriptivist dictionary as a gift to my middle-class, Midwestern sister and brother-in-law, and their two children, and I fully expect all hell to break loose when they reach the F pages. The corrupting influence of the New York uncle must be maintained. Grant On Dec 15, 2003, at 20:31, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > A friend asked me, "How do you know what the BEST dictionaries are?" > > How do professional linguists and lexicographers answer that question? > From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Tue Dec 16 15:06:41 2003 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas M. Paikeday) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:06:41 -0500 Subject: the best dictionaries Message-ID: Remember the Latin adage "Timeo hominem unius libri" (I am scared of the man of one book). I was reminded of this when I read Grant's one-word test for finding the best dictionary! Sorry to sound so negative. TOM. www.paikeday.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Barrett" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 9:11 AM Subject: Re: the best dictionaries > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: Re: the best dictionaries > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Before I started working for OUP, I usually recommended MW10 or MW11 as > a general-use dictionary, but now I just tell people they can eliminate > a slew of bad dictionaries by looking up "fuck." It it's missing, don't > buy. Either the word has been omitted for space reasons (meaning, to > me, that the dictionary has insufficient coverage), or it has been > omitted for prescriptivist, religious, or moral reasons (meaning, to > me, that there may be other biases of which I am unaware). I've been > looking for a politer, similar bellwether word, but I can't find a good > one. I tried "ixnay" but too many good dictionaries don't have it. > > I am about to give a full-coverage descriptivist dictionary as a gift > to my middle-class, Midwestern sister and brother-in-law, and their two > children, and I fully expect all hell to break loose when they reach > the F pages. The corrupting influence of the New York uncle must be > maintained. > > Grant > > On Dec 15, 2003, at 20:31, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > A friend asked me, "How do you know what the BEST dictionaries are?" > > > > How do professional linguists and lexicographers answer that question? > > From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Tue Dec 16 15:23:09 2003 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:23:09 -0600 Subject: the best dictionaries/one word test Message-ID: my test word has always been "callipygous" Maybe, just because its a great word! From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Dec 16 15:22:52 2003 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:22:52 -0500 Subject: the best dictionaries In-Reply-To: <004b01c3c3e6$368228a0$4fca6395@thomaspaikeday> Message-ID: As much as I like the shelves of dictionaries at my desk, both at home and at work, I can't really recommend friends and family buy more than one. We're lucky they purchase even one! Cheers, Grant PS: Also attributed to Aquinas, but put differently: L'homme qui ne connaît qu'un seul livre mais le possède à fond est un adversaire redoutable. On Dec 16, 2003, at 10:06, Thomas M. Paikeday wrote: > Remember the Latin adage "Timeo hominem unius libri" (I am scared of > the man > of one book). I was reminded of this when I read Grant's one-word test > for > finding the best dictionary! Sorry to sound so negative. From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Tue Dec 16 16:17:55 2003 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:17:55 -0500 Subject: the best dictionaries/one word test Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:23:09 -0600 paulzjoh writes: > my test word has always been "callipygous" It is admittedly difficult to define. One man's callipygia is another's steatopygia. D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Dec 16 19:59:42 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:59:42 -0500 Subject: present tense + "for/since" In-Reply-To: <20031215220711.15561.qmail@web40614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I hear/read this only in non-native English, and not just in present tense but also in present progressive constructions: We live/are living here since 10 years (ago)/for 10 years/since 1993. Parentheses indicate optional use ('since 10 years' is very common in NNS English). At 02:07 PM 12/15/2003 -0800, you wrote: >Hi all. I have a question on syntax for you. > >Can you think of any frequent idiomatic examples of a >present tense, instead of the present perfect, >followed by "for" or "since" to talk about duration >("...since 1930... for 80 years now"). > >Do you often use the present in such structures in >your own idiolect? What differences can you find in >using the present over the "more regular" perfective >tense? > >Thanks, > >Pete > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. >http://photos.yahoo.com/ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Dec 16 23:20:19 2003 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 18:20:19 EST Subject: "home attendant Message-ID: In a message dated Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:08:45 -0800 PL asks > Hello to all linguists and language lovers. Can you > help me define the words below? > > What does a "home attendant" do exactly? Is it usually > a live-in professional? > > Does s/he take care of a person also from a medical > point of view? No, that would be a "home health aide". More exactly, a home health aide is a nursing assistant. Sometimes a state-issued Home Health Aide Certificate is required. > What term would you more commonly use > to refer to a person who keeps an elderly person > company, goes out with him/her for a daily walk, helps > with a few chores, etc. "companion" > Is "home help / -er" used at all in the US? Not that either of us know of. The closest we jbiw of is "mother's helper" which a a teenager or pre-teenager who helps a mother take care of infants and toddlers. A piad position, like a babysitter except that the parent'/guardian remains at home. - Jim Landau Judy Landau RN From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Dec 16 23:29:02 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 18:29:02 -0500 Subject: Nose Guard (1966) and Nose Tackle (1977) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 2:15 AM Subject: Nose Guard (1966) and Nose Tackle (1977) 22 October 1966, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 37, col. 1: Gossett is especially proud of LaGrones's starring role in his movies because at "nose" guard, usually defenders are lost in the trenches of line play. > > 24 October 1966, CHILICOTHER CONSTITUTION-TRIBUNE (Chilicothe, Missouri), > pg. 2?, col. 7: > The early loss of nose guard Granville Liggins hurt the Sooners. > > 10 December 1966, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 7, col. 2: > Nose guard John LaGrone has already been named to most of the All- (Col. > 3--ed.) America teams,... > > 8 December 1977, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. D-10, col. 1 (AP > football story): > "It's become a tighter race, but it's still ours to win," New Orleans nose > tackle Jim Wilks said. "Nose tackle" does appear in Ancestry just a tiny bit earlier, you just have to tweak the engine a bit. Using my "The Football Encyclopedia" by Neff and Cohen, I looked at the rosters of teams year by year before and including 1977. While I can find 'NT' next to two names on the roster of the 1974 New England Patriots, trying to link their names with 'nose tackle' in Ancestry newspapers produced no hits. Using other 'NT' names in later years produced nothing until October 23, 1977, The Marion(OH) Star, page 24, col. 6. <> I think that if you look at a program for the New England Patriots from the 1974 season, you might find 'NT' listed beside the names of Ray Hamilton and Art Moore. Why they were the first team to list such is unknown(to me). SC The first use of From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 17 00:52:17 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:52:17 -0500 Subject: Nose Guard (1966) and Nose Tackle (1977) In-Reply-To: <001401c3c42c$65f3fdc0$fc20a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: At 6:29 PM -0500 12/16/03, Sam Clements wrote: > "Nose tackle" does appear in Ancestry just a tiny bit earlier, you just >have to tweak the engine a bit. > >Using my "The Football Encyclopedia" by Neff and Cohen, I looked at the >rosters of teams year by year before and including 1977. While I can find >'NT' next to two names on the roster of the 1974 New England Patriots, >trying to link their names with 'nose tackle' in Ancestry newspapers >produced no hits. Using other 'NT' names in later years produced nothing >until October 23, 1977, The Marion(OH) Star, page 24, col. 6. > > <.....>> > >I think that if you look at a program for the New England Patriots from the >1974 season, you might find 'NT' listed beside the names of Ray Hamilton and >Art Moore. Why they were the first team to list such is unknown(to me). > Ray "Sugar Bear" Hamilton was routinely referred to as a nose tackle on the Pats, through the mid-70's. I don't remember Art Moore; maybe he'd been phased out by '76-'77. That was the great (and unexpected) season all New England football fans remember with anguish, the season snuffed out by a bad call; indeed, it was a phantom roughing the passer penalty against that very Sugar Bear himself that handed a playoff game to the Oakland Raiders. (I lived a mile away from the Foxboro Stadium that year; it was all very traumatic.) As far as why it's hard to locate other NTs (or NGs), one constraint is that only teams that play 3-4 defenses (three defensive linemen, four linebackers) have them, and there aren't many such teams. The majority of teams have always featured a 4-3 defense, with two defensive ends and a left and right tackle. The nose tackle or nose guard plays across from the center. Larry From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 17 01:47:38 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:47:38 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Nose Tackle" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: nose tackle (OED3 1978, Popik Dec. 1977, Clements Oct. 1977) 1975 _N.Y. Times_ 28 Sept. 208 If you see the position abbreviation n.t. after a player's name, realize that he is a nose tackle, like Ray Hamilton of the New England Patriots. A nose tackle is the middle man in a three-man defense and he lines up right opposite the center, nose to nose. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Dec 17 02:38:21 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:38:21 -0500 Subject: Chuck Fairbanks and "Nose Tackle" Message-ID: A theory. Barry's 1966 cites for "nose guard" are, interestingly, about the Oklahoma 'Sooners.' Chuck Fairbanks was the Oklahoma coach from 1967-1972. Chuck Fairbanks became the New England Patriots coach in 1973. The NT=nose tackle appears in print(thanks, Fred!) in 1975, and I found a source that would suggest the abbreviation appears in 1974. Coincidences? I think not. SC From dsgood at VISI.COM Wed Dec 17 03:39:51 2003 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:39:51 -0600 Subject: Swearing swearers Message-ID: This seems to be patterned on "Lying liars" . Swearing swearers and FCC's new rulebook >From TV to politics, profanity and suggestive themes have proliferated. By Patrik Jonsson http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1217/p03s02-ussc.html Is there a technical term for such playing off an existing phrase? -- Dan Goodman Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From douglas at NB.NET Wed Dec 17 04:16:58 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:16:58 -0500 Subject: Swearing swearers In-Reply-To: <3FDFD007.3020906@visi.com> Message-ID: >This seems to be patterned on "Lying liars". Which in turn is patterned on the corresponding concatenation of F-words? Or not? -- Doug Wilson From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Wed Dec 17 04:13:14 2003 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:13:14 -0800 Subject: where does the S go, in the plural Egg McMuffin? and other puzzling questions In-Reply-To: <3FD26CC1@mail.carr.org> Message-ID: reprinted (re-pixellated) without impunity from The Chronicle: McLanguage Meets the Dictionary http://chronicle.com/free/v50/i17/17b01401.htm By DENNIS BARON McDonald's wants Merriam-Webster to take its McJob and shove it. McDonald's CEO Jim Cantalupo is steamed that the latest edition of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary defines "McJob" as low-paying, requiring little skill, and providing little opportunity for advancement. Three years ago The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language ran a similar definition, and The Oxford English Dictionary includes "unstimulating" in the mix of descriptors branding McJobs as dead-end. Cantalupo calls such negative definitions "a slap in the face" to American restaurant workers. Although he insists that the word is not part of the nation's vocabulary, Cantalupo admits that McJob is no stranger to restaurant trade journals. He wants everyone -- including Merriam-Webster -- to stop using it. Merriam-Webster announced that it was sticking by its definition, which reflects the way McJob has been used for at least 17 years. Dictionary editors regularly include words far more controversial and offensive because their job is to record how the rest of us use our language, and we don't always use it politely. Jim Cantalupo isn't the first person to object to what he feels is bad language in the dictionary, nor is he the first to tell lexicographers how to define their words. For example, in 1872 A.S. Solomons protested G. & C. Merriam's definition of the verb "jew" as "to cheat." And in 1997 a grass-roots protest insisted that Merriam-Webster drop the word "nigger" from the dictionary. The NAACP joined that protest, calling for the dictionary to remove any reference to race in the word's definition. As someone whose heritage is both Jewish and South Asian, I'm particularly sensitive to the negative racial and religious vocabulary that gets tossed around both casually and vindictively. But it's not the job of dictionaries to root out offensive language or to change social attitudes, and most lexicographers are careful to warn readers when words are venomous and demeaning. Merriam had carefully marked the negative use of "jew" as insulting, and though the dictionary maker removed that verb from its Collegiate dictionaries, "to jew" can still be found in Merriam-Webster's unabridged version, where it carries the label "offensive." Merriam-Webster took the complaint against "nigger" seriously as well, revising the definition in the new Collegiate to reflect the nonracial contexts where the word sometimes occurs, as well as the fact that "its use by and among blacks is not always intended or taken as offensive." But the dictionary also affirmed its earlier conclusion that the word is typically "expressive of racial hatred and bigotry." Like others who would clean up our dictionaries, Jim Cantalupo, anxious to protect his company from bad press, will find that his linguistic protest comes too late. Most people know exactly what McJob means without a dictionary. Wildly successful business phenomena like McDonald's have a way of working their way into our language as well as our culture. In the early 20th century, Coca-Cola sued to prevent the marketing of other drinks with "cola" in their name, winning judgments against upstarts like Chero-Cola, Clio-Cola, and El-Cola but losing against Cherry-Cola, Dixie-Cola, and Koke, all of them long gone. Coke also lost its bid to prevent 7-Up from calling itself "the Un-Cola." One result of Atlanta-based Coke's domination of the cola industry is that "coke" and "co' cola" have become generic terms in the South for any soft drink. Another soft drink, Moxie, won a suit against the competitor Noxie, only to see "moxie" enter the language as an ordinary word meaning energy, guts, or chutzpah. Shredded wheat, thermos, and zipper all began as trademarked terms that morphed into everyday words as well. Manufacturers want the names of their products on everybody's lips, but they don't want those names to become everybody's property, so like McDonald's they try to regulate the way we use those names. The Xerox Corporation still takes out ads, including one in The Chronicle of Higher Education last month, admonishing readers that Xerox with a capital X can only be a proper noun (Xerox machine) or proper adjective (Xerox copy). Book and journal editors usually pay attention to these warnings, but people have been using "xerox" (lowercased) as a noun or verb -- regardless of the brand of photocopy machine they're using -- since the 1960s. Like Coke, Xerox, and zipper, McDonald's is a victim of its own success: The world's largest fast-food chain is seeing its trademark adapted into ordinary, noncommercial language, often in an unflattering way. We've gone way beyond McJob: There's McPaper, a designation for USA Today that's been around since that newspaper made its debut (the oldest OED citation for McPaper is a 1982 New York Times article). Other Mc- derivatives include McDonaldize, McDoctors, McTherapy, McWorld, and McMansion, as well as McDonald's itself, defined positively by the OED as "any service, organization, etc., likened to the McDonald's chain in some respect, esp. in operating in a highly efficient, standardized manner." Ever eager to burnish its public image, the McDonald's Corporation once hired a public-relations firm to ascertain the correct plural of the Egg McMuffin. Perhaps they were hoping to gain approval for Eggs McMuffin, on the analogy of the more upmarket eggs Benedict. But that quest went nowhere. As far as I know, the company never ruled on what eaters of the Egg McMuffin should order if they want more than one. Dictionary makers themselves can squabble over the ownership of words. The name "Webster's" was the subject of a bitter dispute in the early 20th century, with the courts ruling that G. & C. Merriam, the lineal publishing descendants of Noah Webster's dictionaries, did not have exclusive rights to the name. "Webster's" in everyday English has been synonymous with "dictionary" since Noah Webster hit it big in 1828, but perhaps because they don't want to get embroiled in further litigation, dictionaries don't record that generic meaning of the name. Although many people look to dictionaries for guidance in proper word use, these essential reference books aren't regulatory mechanisms as much as they are compilations of language practices. Dictionaries don't tell us how to use our words, they describe how we use them. Certainly the makers of dictionaries must pay attention not just to linguistic nuance, but to the impact that their work has on the course of a language. But if lexicographers allowed individuals or pressure groups to dictate definitions, then our language would be reduced to mere McWords: an English high in calories, low in meaning, requiring little skill, unstimulating -- in short, dead-end. Dennis Baron is a professor of English and linguistics at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- http://chronicle.com Section: The Chronicle Review Volume 50, Issue 17, Page B14 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Copyright © 2003 by The Chronicle of Higher Education From stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 17 22:39:04 2003 From: stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM (PL) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 14:39:04 -0800 Subject: more on present tense + "for/since" Message-ID: Beverly--I'm not sure that the present tense can NEVER arise in native-speaker English. I recently came across a blurb written by a native speaker, in which a verb in the present tense ("enjoy" IIRC) was used in sentence with a perfective meaning, followed by "since" or "for" to express duration. I don't recall what the title of the book was. Best, Steve wrote: "I hear/read this only in non-native English, and not just in present tense but also in present progressive constructions: We live/are living here since 10 years (ago)/for 10 years/since 1993......" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Dec 18 01:09:52 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:09:52 -0600 Subject: blend: "slowly by slowly" Message-ID: For those interested in syntactic blending, here's one I heard the other day. A fellow named Rick Francona was being interviewed on MSNBC about interrogating Saddam Hussein. Getting him to reveal his secrets involves a gradual process of wearing him down, and during Francona's explanation, he said that "slowly by slowly" (something will happen, I forget just what). This is clearly a blend of "slowly" and "step by step." Gerald Cohen From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 18 01:38:45 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:38:45 -0500 Subject: blend: "slowly by slowly" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:09 PM -0600 12/17/03, Gerald Cohen wrote: > For those interested in syntactic blending, here's one I heard the >other day. >A fellow named Rick Francona was being interviewed on MSNBC about >interrogating Saddam Hussein. Getting him to reveal his secrets >involves a gradual process of wearing him down, and during Francona's >explanation, he said that "slowly by slowly" (something will happen, >I forget just what). > > This is clearly a blend of "slowly" and "step by step." > >Gerald Cohen With maybe a smidgen of "slowly but surely". Larry From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Dec 18 04:34:26 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:34:26 -0500 Subject: Holy Moley!; (1929) Message-ID: This was an attempt to antedate any possibly first use of the term 'Holy Moly' (or Moley). Since Captain Marvel first appeared in 1940, my earlier cite from 1946 didn't prove that it occured before the comic. It only antedated HDAS. These current cites only antedates HDAS as MW and OED don't list it. Using Ancestry.com, from the Gettysburg(PA) Compiler, March 27, 1929. Page 4, col. 5: (From a juvenile story) <<"Rolly polly, bright and jolly!" Maybe "Remmy," my faithful typewriter, should have spent it, "Roly poly, holy moly!">> And from the Arcadia(CA) Tribune, May 4, 1936. Page 1(I think), col. 7: (a column entitled "Headline Parade" by a R. M. Orr) < My question on this last cite would be is the "New Deal is no longer holy/to Professor Raymond Moley" a possible origin of the "Holy Moley" spelling of the term? SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Clements" To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Holy Moley!; > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 3:08 AM > > > > > > > > > William Woolfolk, 86, Writer Behind Comic-Book Heroes, Dies > > By ERIC P. NASH > > > > Mr. Woolfolk did not create new characters, but said he coined one of > the > > most famous lines in comics: Captain Marvel's exclamation "Holy Moley!" > "He > > created that so Captain Marvel would have something to say when Captain > Marvel > > was particularly astonished," said Joanna Martine Woolfolk, his third > wife. > > They were divorced in 1999. > > Those third wives! They'l believe anything ! > > From ancestry, Coshocton County Democrat (OH), March 13, 1946: > > The pudgy-cheeked, wild-haired Jimmy sat back at his familiar desk yesterday > and ejaculated: > > "Holy Moly, what we're going to do with this team! Look at that list of > backs--Pat Harder, Chief Johnson, Elmer Angeman, Paul Christman, " > > A story about the Chicago Cardinals football team. > > Sam Clements > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 18 04:39:02 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:39:02 -0500 Subject: Eurabia; The Bottom Line Message-ID: EURABIA "Given current demographic trends in what waggish Muslims now call Eurabia, and the continentals' apparent insouciance about nuclear proliferation, in what conceivable scenario are the French and Germans likely to be 'helpful' in the future?" --Mark Steyn in the NEW YORK SUN, 17 December 2003, pg. 9, col. 3. "Eurabia" has 1,530 Google hits. Most follow this NATIONAL REVIEW article: (GOOGLE) http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/comment/comment-yeor100902.asp October 9, 2002, 9:15 a.m. Eurabia The road to Munich... By Bat Yeor ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ THE BOTTOM LINE This could be the end for The Bottom Line at NYU. http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/13044.htm BOTTOM LINE IS GOING CLASS-IC ROCK By DAREH GREGORIAN December 10, 2003 -- New York University plans on turning the legendary Bottom Line nightclub into a classy place. John Beckman, a spokesman for club landlord NYU, said yesterday the school wants to convert the famed West Fourth Street music room into classrooms as soon as the space is emptied out. Last week, Judge Donna Recant ordered the club's eviction for nonpayment of $190,000. (...) "Bottom line" pre-dates my wife, Jennifer Lopez. HDAS has the September 1984 SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN as the first verb "bottom-line." OED has September 1967 for "bottom line" (under "bottom"). A check of the WALL STREET JOURNAL shows infrequent use until the 1960s. (PROQUEST) 1. PEPPER AND SALT. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 13, 1908. p. 2 (1 page) (Bad hit--ed.) 2. BRIGHTER FOR NEW HAVEN; Fiscal Year Starts With Gains That Indicate a Monthly Increase of $300,000 in Gross Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 26, 1915. p. 1 (1 page): There is, therefore, good reason to believe that the earnings for the fiscal year of the New Haven ending July 1, showing about 1/2 of 1% earned on New Haven shares, marks the bottom line for New Haven. 3. A TRULY SPECIAL SESSION Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 19, 1919. p. 1 (1 page) 4. WHOLESALE PRICES HAVE TOUCHED THEIR BOTTOM; Individual Commodities and Some Groups Are Yet Out of Line, but Average of All Prices Is Upwards-- Farm Products Make Gains Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 21, 1922. p. 9 (1 page) 5. The Road to Prosperity; Not by Free Trade Fallacies The Road to Prosperity By C. W. BARRON. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 14, 1927. p. 1 (2 pages) 6. Abreast of the Market Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 10, 1934. p. 15 (1 page) (Bad hit--ed.) 7. Price-Planning Problems; Commodity Group "Parity" Last Month More Significant Than Rising Trend of Combined Index During 1934 BY BERNARD KILGORE. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 16, 1935. p. 3 (1 page) 8. Abreast of the Market; A Stock Market Appraisal EDITED BY OLIVER J. GINGOLD. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 11, 1960. p. 25 (1 page) (Bad hit--ed.) 9. British Post Office, Profitable and Fast, Hopes to Get Better; It Will Include Rental Space In New Buildings, Emphasize Courtesy; Lessons for U.S.? British Post Office, Profitable and Fast, Hopes to Get Better BY FRANK K. LINGE Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 6, 1960. p. 1 (2 pages) (Bad hit--ed.) 10. Display Ad 23 -- No Title Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 16, 1961. p. 5 (1 page): The results--savings--show up where it's most important...on the _bottom line_. From douglas at NB.NET Thu Dec 18 05:29:24 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 00:29:24 -0500 Subject: Holy Moley!; (1929) In-Reply-To: <001f01c3c520$3bac9fa0$fc20a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: >My question on this last cite would be is the "New Deal is no longer holy/to >Professor Raymond Moley" a possible origin of the "Holy Moley" spelling of >the term? Conceivable but not likely IMHO even if the times are exactly right. The more general speculation that Raymond Moley's name (in the news) influenced the spelling tendency (without reference to this specific jingle) is more likely, of course. But it could be just coincidence, as I think "moley" is a reasonable way to spell the word from its sound. I presume "Holy Moley" is an alteration of "Holy Moses". [The alternative in HDAS, from a plant name "moly", is superficially implausible IMHO ... analogous to modern "jinx" from a bird name "jynx".] Did "Holy Moses" originate as a euphemism for something like "Holy Mother of Christ/Jesus/God"? -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 18 07:43:41 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 02:43:41 EST Subject: Trail Mix (1968, 1976, 1977) Message-ID: "Trail Mix" is not in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999). "Trail Mix" is also not in the index of Andrew F. Smith's PEANUTS (2002). OED and Merriam-Webster have 1977. (OED's entry--from Nexis--was added in December 2001.) I'll keep an eye out for "trail mix" in the LOS ANGELES TIMES (still stuck on May 1953). 12 February 1976, INDIANA EVENING GAZETTE (Indiana, Pennsylvania), pg. 16, col. 7: _The Skiers' Snack_ By Aileen Claire NEA Food Editor (...) Margie Mahoney, 23, of Anchorage, Alaska is a member of the Ladies' Cross-Countrey Team and makes her own snack food. When in competition she prefers large breakfasts and after a race she drinks hot liquids, eats raisins and oranges. At home she makes granola for breakfast. Her Skiers' Trail Mix for hiking or ski touring is made from equal amounts of raisins, dry roasted peanuts, chocolate chips or M&M's. "I mix these in a plastic bag and throw it in my back pack. It's a great energy snack." Here is Margie Mahoney's granola recipe. (...) (TRADEMARK) Typed DrawingWord Mark ORIGINAL TRAIL MIX Goods and Services IC 029. US 046. G & S: Snack food mix consisting primarily of raisins, processed sunflower seeds, processed pumpkin seeds, processed peanuts, processed cashews, processed almonds, soybean oil and/or cottonseed oil and/or canola oil and/or almond oil and salt. FIRST USE: 19680000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19770000 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 76345939 Filing Date December 7, 2001 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition September 24, 2002 Registration Number 2662697 Registration Date December 17, 2002 Owner (REGISTRANT) Hadley Date Gardens, Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 83555 Airport Blvd. Thermal CALIFORNIA 92274 Attorney of Record John H. Alspaugh Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "TRAIL MIX" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F) Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 18 08:35:46 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 03:35:46 EST Subject: Sky Hook (1971) and Rainbow Jumper (1974) Message-ID: Which came first, the "rainbow" or the "sky"? The LOS ANGELES TIMES should have coverage of Lew Alcindor's college career at UCLA in the 1960s. Was the "sky hook" invented there? Who is responsible for "rainbow jumper," and when? The mention here of "point guard," Larry Horn's mention of his UCLA classmate, and the availability of online THE SPORTING NEWS (not helpful here) got me asking about "sky hook" and "rainbow jumper." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SKY HOOK 28 January 1971, POST-CRESCENT (Appleton, Wisconsin), pg.D3, col. 3: _Lew Alcindor's_ hook shots, often referred to as "sky hooks," are things of beauty on the basketball court. West's Woes Charted as Far Out By Thomas Boswell. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: May 5, 1972. p. D2 (1 page) : When Wilt Chamberlain wants to stuff, when Kareem Abdul-Jabbar shoots his sky hook, who thinks, "Will he make it?" Milwaukee Jinx Hits Bullets By Thomas Boswell Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Nov 26, 1972. p. C12 (1 page): Jabbar scored his normal 28 points, disregarding mere human efforts to stop his sky hook. Hayes: Bullets' Gun; Only 'Sky Hook' by Jabbar More Feared in NBA Than 'E's' Turnaround Jump Shot Against Hayes, 'It's Murder' Former Knick Willis Reed: 'No One Can Stop Him' Bullets Host Pistons On Friendly Court Tonight By David-DuPreeWashington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Feb 28, 1975. p. D1 (2 pages) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- RAINBOW JUMPER Don't jump off a rainbow! Use a bridge, like Steve Brodie did! NBA Climaxes Today By Leonard Shapiro Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: May 12, 1974. p. D1 (1 page): He (Havlicek--ed.) seemingly had the game won when his 15-foot rainbow jumper over Jabbar sifted through the net with seven seconds to play. 2. Strange 76ers Show Spectrum In Revolution; This Morning Halt! Who Goes There in Philly's 76er Uniforms? By Dave Kindred. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: May 11, 1978. p. D1 (2 pages) GW Uses Magid's Offense, Glenn's Defense to Regroup, 103-52 By Russell Carter Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 29, 1978. p. D4 (1 page): Three were driving layups through traffic, another his patented rainbow jumper from the corner, and he assisted on a goal and made two steals as GW closed the half with a 40-28 lead. From jpparker at ISERV.NET Thu Dec 18 12:01:43 2003 From: jpparker at ISERV.NET (jane parker) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:01:43 -0500 Subject: Cheesed out In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20031210183655.01e72ca8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: I recently (NPR last week) heard Cheesed out used. Any thought about this and what it means. Jane Parker From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Thu Dec 18 13:04:44 2003 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:04:44 -0600 Subject: archives Message-ID: I know that "Duesy" predated the car, but are there archives that I can look this up? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Clements" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 10:34 PM Subject: Re: Holy Moley!; (1929) > This was an attempt to antedate any possibly first use of the term 'Holy > Moly' (or Moley). Since Captain Marvel first appeared in 1940, my earlier > cite from 1946 didn't prove that it occured before the comic. It only > antedated HDAS. > > These current cites only antedates HDAS as MW and OED don't list it. > > Using Ancestry.com, from the Gettysburg(PA) Compiler, March 27, 1929. Page > 4, col. 5: > (From a juvenile story) > > <<"Rolly polly, bright and jolly!" Maybe "Remmy," my faithful > typewriter, should have spent it, "Roly poly, holy moly!">> > > And from the Arcadia(CA) Tribune, May 4, 1936. Page 1(I think), col. 7: > > (a column entitled "Headline Parade" by a R. M. Orr) > > < and he violates the law, > Runs a signal, can't shift gears, > Shapely hosiery intereferes. > Hoover doesn't care for Landon > Since he cannot lay his hand on > Alfred and so run his show; > Anti-Herbie is no go. > Vandenberg for president > Is the latest increment > In the list of candidates > Swinging on the alley gates. > Favorite in Derby loses > As Bold Venture swiftly cruises > To the finish; favorites tumble > When cocksureness makes them stumble. > New Deal is no longer holy > to Professor Raymond Moley > When he joins Hugh Johnson's sally > In an anti-New Deal rally. > > > My question on this last cite would be is the "New Deal is no longer holy/to > Professor Raymond Moley" a possible origin of the "Holy Moley" spelling of > the term? > > SC > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sam Clements" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 11:27 AM > Subject: Re: Holy Moley!; > > > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 3:08 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > William Woolfolk, 86, Writer Behind Comic-Book Heroes, Dies > > > By ERIC P. NASH > > > > > > Mr. Woolfolk did not create new characters, but said he coined one > of > > the > > > most famous lines in comics: Captain Marvel's exclamation "Holy Moley!" > > "He > > > created that so Captain Marvel would have something to say when Captain > > Marvel > > > was particularly astonished," said Joanna Martine Woolfolk, his third > > wife. > > > They were divorced in 1999. > > > > Those third wives! They'l believe anything ! > > > > From ancestry, Coshocton County Democrat (OH), March 13, 1946: > > > > The pudgy-cheeked, wild-haired Jimmy sat back at his familiar desk > yesterday > > and ejaculated: > > > > "Holy Moly, what we're going to do with this team! Look at that list > of > > backs--Pat Harder, Chief Johnson, Elmer Angeman, Paul Christman, " > > > > A story about the Chicago Cardinals football team. > > > > Sam Clements > > From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 18 14:05:26 2003 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 06:05:26 -0800 Subject: Cheesed out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Something is so cheesy that it is no longer interesting, that interest quickly disappears. For me, I get cheesed out watching "reality" tv, Entertainment Tonight, etc. --- jane parker wrote: > I recently (NPR last week) heard Cheesed out used. > Any thought about > this and what it means. > > Jane Parker ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 18 15:05:02 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:05:02 -0500 Subject: Sky Hook (1971) In-Reply-To: <1c1.1311f964.2d12c0e2@aol.com> Message-ID: At 3:35 AM -0500 12/18/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Which came first, the "rainbow" or the "sky"? > The LOS ANGELES TIMES should have coverage of Lew Alcindor's college >career at UCLA in the 1960s. Was the "sky hook" invented there? > Who is responsible for "rainbow jumper," and when? > The mention here of "point guard," Larry Horn's mention of his UCLA >classmate, and the availability of online THE SPORTING NEWS (not >helpful here) got >me asking about "sky hook" and "rainbow jumper." > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >--------------------------------------------- >SKY HOOK > > 28 January 1971, POST-CRESCENT (Appleton, Wisconsin), pg.D3, col. 3: > _Lew Alcindor's_ hook shots, often referred to as "sky hooks," are things >of beauty on the basketball court. > I recall Lew Alcindor (later Kareem Abdul Jabbar) shooting those elegant sky hooks for UCLA on occasion, but I don't recall the term used until he became a pro, for the Milwaukee Bucks (whence the reference in a Wisconsin paper above--the Milwaukee papers would be good places to check as well). It was only when he graduated and began playing consistently against equally tall players that he really needed to perfect the shot. I dimly recall stories about how he practiced it over and over again in the off-season, knowing that it couldn't be blocked by his fellow 7-footers. The NCAA outlawed the dunk shot when Alcindor was about to become a sophomore in '66 and join the varsity (those were the days before freshman eligibility), so he wouldn't have what non-UCLA folks saw as an unfair advantage. Both he and Coach Wooden later claimed the ban (which was reversed after Alcindor turned pro) was a great aid for his career, as it forced him to learn a full offensive repertoire. If my timing is right, he joined the Bucks in the fall of '69, so the papers from '69 or '70 would be the likely ones to feature a first cite of "sky hook", but it was really his second year in Milwaukee, 1970-71, when the Bucks acquired Oscar Robertson and won the NBA championship, that the shot became famous. It was around that time that he became Kareem Abdul Jabbar. larry From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Dec 18 15:21:06 2003 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:21:06 -0500 Subject: archives In-Reply-To: <008a01c3c567$821937e0$5c06433f@paulz> Message-ID: On 18 Dec 2003, at 7:04, paulzjoh wrote: > I know that "Duesy" predated the car, but are there archives that I can look > this up? Not that I'm aware of, but both HDAS and OED report the 1916 Dialect Notes citation that proves the existence of the word before the invention of the Duesenberg. Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Dec 18 15:24:47 2003 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:24:47 -0500 Subject: archives In-Reply-To: <008a01c3c567$821937e0$5c06433f@paulz> Message-ID: P.S. The citation can be found at the entry "doozy." Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Dec 18 16:24:17 2003 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:24:17 -0500 Subject: tear tabs? Message-ID: UT has a host of new for expense reimbursement since the departure of John Schumaker. I have not seen , as used below, before. Are others familiar with it? What exactly is it? (The term is highlighted in the original.) Thanks, Bethany --- T-3 and must be supported by an official receipt issued by the vendor (restaurant, caterer, ticket office, etc.). If payment is made by a personal credit card, a copy of the credit card charge slip may be submitted in lieu of an official vendor receipt. Tear tabs from restaurants are not acceptable documentation for reimbursement. The --- From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Dec 18 16:31:07 2003 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:31:07 -0800 Subject: tear tabs? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't recall seeing the term "tear tab" before, but I imagine it refers to some restaurant bills that come with a small perforated section at the bottom which repeats the name of the restaurant and the printed serial number that appears at the top of the bill, and provides a blank where the customer can fill in the total amount paid. I can see why this wouldn't be acceptable proof of payment. Peter Mc. --On Thursday, December 18, 2003 11:24 AM -0500 "Bethany K. Dumas" wrote: > UT has a host of new for expense reimbursement since the > departure of John Schumaker. I have not seen , as used below, > before. Are others familiar with it? What exactly is it? (The term is > highlighted in the original.) > > Thanks, > Bethany > > --- > T-3 and must be supported by an official receipt issued by the vendor > (restaurant, caterer, ticket office, etc.). If payment is made by a > personal credit card, a copy of the credit card charge slip may be > submitted in lieu of an official vendor receipt. Tear tabs from > restaurants are not acceptable documentation for reimbursement. The > --- ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Dec 18 16:42:38 2003 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:42:38 -0500 Subject: tear tabs? In-Reply-To: <1374284175.1071736267@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Peter A. McGraw wrote: >I don't recall seeing the term "tear tab" before, but I imagine it refers >to some restaurant bills that come with a small perforated section at the >bottom which repeats the name of the restaurant and the printed serial >number that appears at the top of the bill, and provides a blank where the >customer can fill in the total amount paid. I can see why this wouldn't be >acceptable proof of payment. Sounds right. Bethany From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 18 19:55:52 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:55:52 -0500 Subject: Spider Hole (1941, 1970) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031215235229.049d0c20@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >"Camoufleur" is AFAIK an OK English word: it's in English dictionaries >(MW3, EB Funk & Wagnalls). BTW, I don't see it as a headword in the French >Academy dictionary (although it occurs in French on the Web, apparently in >expected senses). > >"Camofleur" is a misspelling, I think: like "camoflage" which seems to be a >frequent one ... maybe because of the abbreviation "camo"? > I'd guess the abbreviation and new spelling of "camoflage" both come from the pronunciation, which usually has a schwa or open o in the penult, never (in English) an [u]. An underlying "o", often representing a linking vowel, is typical in such foreignish words, while an "ou" is very rare, whence I'd wager the shift in both pronunciation and spelling. And since "camo(u)fleur" would be a spin-off of "camo(u)flage", the same would apply to it. Larry From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Dec 18 22:44:38 2003 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:44:38 -0800 Subject: the best dictionaries In-Reply-To: <200312160131.hBG1VxED011371@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I use dictionaries quite often for my translation work and for lexicography work I do for Japanese-English dictionaries. As many other people have pointed out, different dictionaries have different uses. Here are some uses by which I select my dictionaries when working: Poorly written but fast: I use a slightly dated, error-riddled dictionary (Eijiro) most often for translation work because its on my hard drive so it's fast, it has a lot of words, and I'm aware of its faults so I don't use its suggestions willy-nilly. (The most recent updates are much better, but I find my version works well enough for most translation.) Accurate and replete, but heavy: After that, I use Kenkyusha's J-E dictionary (fifth edition only). This new edition has lots of words, lots of English suggestions and loads of sample sentences. It's heavy, though, like most hardbound dictionaries, so I usually go to Google before picking it up. Tight definitions vs. plain ones: For lexicography work and my choices after Kenkyusha when translating, I select among three large Japanese dictionaries Daijigen, Daijisen and Nihongo Daijiten. The first two are written in a style that seems to me to be close to Webster's. The definitions tend to be thorough though sometimes hard to understand, and modern words are often missed. Nihongo Daijiten has more modern words, the definitions are easy to read, and there are sample illustrations. I make a conscious decision each time which to use, and it depends on whether I want a really tightly written definition (Daijigen), a well written definition but perhaps a bit more information (Daijisen) or something that will speak to me in plain words (Nihongo Daijiten). Plain English: My favorite English-English dictionary is American Heritage. To me, the definitions are written plainly, so I don't have to work at understanding the word in question. My Scientologist aunt has lauded me more than once on this choice because Scientologists place great value on the correct understanding of word definitions. I think the Random House is similar (their collaborative work with Shogakukan for the Japanese-English dictionary is really nice), but my vague memory of using it that it lacked words I wanted. Too much coverage: I use the OED online on occasion, but haven't had much luck with it. Its thoroughness through the centuries and loads of examples means I have trouble wading through to find the meaning I want. For tough words or obscure definitions, though, it has come in handy in a pinch. Thoroughness, but heavy: I originally used to not like Webster's Third because of its massiveness and the hard-to-understand definitions. Recently, I've found the definitions not as bad as I used to think, but picking it up is such a chore, I've never purchased one. I would like to get one to see how well it works for day-to-day usage... Handy paperbacks: Although the paperback edition of the American Heritage--I think it was college--has come in handy, it's a bit big to carry around. I lament this fact because I have found several Japanese-Japanese paperbacks that are small enough, yet thorough enough (Obunsha's is my favorite). I haven't found a paperback English-English that is small enough to carry around and still has a selection of words good for reading literature. Appropriateness: Although not a dictionary, I regularly use The Synonym Finder, the only thesaurus I've found that quickly finds the word I need. I always thought a dictionary-style format rather than an index in the back would mean a waste of space and poor choices, but with the Roget's I had, I could never figure out which option in the index to use. The Synonym Finder generally hits the word on the first try, or if not, the second. Again, the reason I like this is because it speaks to me in plain terms that I understand with little effort. My first linguistics professor said her word she checked before buying is boustrophedon. Of course the problem--as she pointed out--is once dictionary makers get the wind of such a word, they just put it in :( Benjamin Barrett >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] > >A friend asked me, "How do you know what the BEST dictionaries are?" > >How do professional linguists and lexicographers answer that question? From francesca26 at WP.PL Thu Dec 18 22:41:47 2003 From: francesca26 at WP.PL (Sylwia Frankowska) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:41:47 +0100 Subject: a word game Message-ID: hi, please, can anybody help me with this puzzle? there it is: begin with 'candy' end in 'comet', use only 7 words each time change only one letter, do not change the order of the letters thanks, sylwia From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 19 00:59:06 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:59:06 -0500 Subject: "Unless you've been living in an underground hole, you've heard..." (1959) Message-ID: "UNLESS YOU'VE BEEN LIVING IN AN UNDERGROUND HOLE, YOU'VE HEARD THE NEWS THAT..." This is a cliche meaning that everyone's heard of the following topic of discussion. It's sometimes "unless you've been living on Mars," sometimes "unless you've been living under a rock," sometimes "unless you've been living in a cave," sometimes "unless you've been hiding in an underground hole." Jon Stewart began THE DAILY SHOW on Monday with this cliche. "Unless you've been living in an underground hole, you've heard that former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein was captured," Stewart started his satiric newscast. "And if you HAVE been living in an underground hole..." The "unless you've been living in a cave" is used nowadays with similar double entendre. The phrase has not thus far been recorded, AFAIK. THE SPORTING NEWS was actually helpful with this one, but most of its readers seem to be living in closets. (PAPER OF RECORD) 29 April 1959, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 12, col. 1: "Unless you've spent the last month on a slow boat from Outer Mongolia, The Moose's girdles are no gag." 21 February 1981, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 23, col. 2: Unless you've been living in a closet, you've read the stories or heard about the alleged cheating at Wichita State. 4 April 1988, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 20, col. 1: Unless you've been living in a closet, you know that Oklahoma's Harvey Grant is the twin brother of former Clemson standout and current Chicago Bulls forward Horace Grant,... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) One-Stop Charters: If You Want To Be Part of the Group By Steve Schatt. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jun 13, 1976. p. 181 (1 page): Unless you've been hibernating, it will come as no surprise to learn that fares are higher this year than last. Thinking Things Over; The Commentator By VERMONT ROYSTER. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 7, 1977. p. 24 (1 page): Unless you've been visiting on Mars these past 10 days you must know that Eric Sevareid has retired. Hildegard Defies Time and the Devil; On New Recordings, Hildegard, at 900, Defies Time and the Devil By CORI ELLISON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 5, 1998. p. AR24 (2 pages): Unless you've been dwelling under a rock, the name of this 12th-century German abbess should at least sound vaguely familiar by now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SKY HOOK STAND TALL: THE LEW ALCINDOR STORY by Phil Pepe New York: Grosset & Dunlop First printing September 1970 I didn't have much time to read this (the NYPL first brought me the wrong book). However, I did NOT see "sky hook" on page 188, for example, where it should have been. January 1971--what we have--isn't a bad date for "sky hook." Pg. 188: "Only God can stop his hook shot." (Jon McGlocklin, Bucks' guard--ed.) Pg. 188: ...he would throw in a hook shot with no more emotion than he showed tying his shoelace. And each time he threw in a hook shot, he would bring the Milwaukee Bucks closer to the realization of their impossible dream. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Dec 19 01:25:12 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:25:12 -0500 Subject: a word game Message-ID: >hi, please, can anybody help me with this puzzle? > >there it is: >begin with 'candy' end in 'comet', use only 7 words; each time change only >one letter; do not change the order of the letters >thanks, >sylwia ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you can put 7 words BETWEEN candy & comet, these would do it: candy sandy sands sards sords sores cores comes comet A. Murie From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Dec 19 01:33:37 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:33:37 -0500 Subject: archives Message-ID: And HDAS reported the use of 'doozy' as an adjective in 1903, Slang Fables by Kleberg. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joanne M. Despres" To: Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 10:21 AM Subject: Re: archives > On 18 Dec 2003, at 7:04, paulzjoh wrote: > > > I know that "Duesy" predated the car, but are there archives that I can look > > this up? > > Not that I'm aware of, but both HDAS and OED report the 1916 > Dialect Notes citation that proves the existence of the word before > the invention of the Duesenberg. > > > Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor > Merriam-Webster, Inc. > jdespres at merriam-webster.com > http://www.merriam-webster.com > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 19 02:07:08 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:07:08 -0500 Subject: "A hole big enough to drive a truck through" (1922) Message-ID: HOLES YOU COULD DRIVE A TRUCK THROUGH "We had holes I could have driven a truck through," said Laidlaw after a big game. --9 October 1976, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 41, col. 2. Holes to drive a truck through? I found this idiom/catchphrase while searching SPORTING NEWS. A football offensive line has opened a huge hole for the running back to pass through--so huge you can drive a truck through the hole. The catchphrase has been used for holes in movie/political logic, but why would you "drive a truck" through there? Maybe you can drive an SUV through, instead? "could drive a truck through"--2,480 Google hits, 1,950 Google Groups hits (GOOGLE GROUPS) REVIEW: Black Dog (1998) Directed by: Kevin Hooks Review by: Joy Wyse Reflecting on the movie BLACK DOG I see holes that you could drive a truck through, but that's exactly what they ... rec.arts.movies.reviews - May 7, 1998 by Joy Wyse - View Thread (6 articles) Re: Form-based File Uploadin HTML ... It has security holes you could drive a truck through (with the exception of checking whether it's a legal filename being uploaded.) It also tries to do things ... comp.infosystems.www.authoring.cgi - May 19, 1997 by Maestro - View Thread (2 articles) NEWS: Colorado Senate rejects gun-lock law ... wanted. "The bill is filled with loopholes that most of us could drive a truck through," said Sen. Mark Hillman, R-Burlington. Committee ... rec.guns - Jan 22, 1999 by mr_horrible at my-dejanews.com - View Thread (3 articles) (GOOGLE) http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2003/11/09/a_tax_loophole_big_enough_to_drive_an_suv_through/ (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) TECH HIGH ELEVEN DEFEATS EASTERN; Tech Shows Speed Eastern Recovers Kickoff. Tech Caught Holding. Tackled on Free Catch. Hook's Long Run. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 21, 1922. p. 14 (1 page): Shillinger was in every play on the defense and opened up holds in the line for his speedy backs that were big enough to drive a truck through. SPORTS through Edgren's EYES The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jul 4, 1924. p. S3 (1 page): From the beginning of his career Beckett has pursued one line of strategy. It has been his scheme to let the enemy knock him down two or three times. This would naturally induce overconfidence. The enemy would then rush in hastily, leaving an opening you could drive a truck through. A HOLE BIG ENOUGH TO DRIVE A TRUCK THROUGH Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 14, 1928. p. I1 (1 page): (Football photo caption--ed.) FOUR COACHES PICK HERWIG ON ALL-AMERICAN TEAM; 1936 ALL AMERICAN TEAM Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 29, 1936. p. A9 (2 pages): (Pg. 10, col. 4--ed.) he played in the enemy backfield all the time on the defense, packing the best line Fordham has had in many years and, on the offense, he opened holes big enough to drive a truck through. THE HYLAND FLING DICK HYLAND. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 18, 1949. p. C2 (1 page): I carried the ball--and that is all that was necessary. The boys boomed a hole you could drive a truck through off the Bear left tackle and ye ball packer was sprung into the Bear backfield. SPORTSCRIPTS PAUL ZIMMERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 11, 1950. p. C1 (1 page): "No trick at all out there," said Williams with a big grin. "They're opening up holes big enough to drive a truck through." The Landers poll -- did we say yes, no, or maybe? Melvin Maddocks. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Apr 11, 1977. p. 22 (1 page) : If one's math is not too erratic--an "if" you could drive a truck through--all this combines to work out to an average of just a hair over 51 percent. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNLESS YOU'VE BEEN LIVING..." (continued) (GOOGLE GROUPS) From: Michael Broderick (michael_broderick at bc.sympatico.ca) Subject: Survivor Newsgroups: misc.fitness.misc Date: 2000-08-27 18:35:42 PST This past two months, the media's favourite segues were, "Unless you live on another planet, . . ." or, "Unless you've been living on mars . . ." or "Unless you've been living under a rock these past few weeks, you've missed all the inane prattle of the headline-generating television show Survivor." The show didn't mean much to me. Yes, SURVIVOR promos used the catchphrase. I should have added the Google numbers: "unless you've been living"--6,070 Google hits, 856 Google Groups hits From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Dec 19 02:24:48 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:24:48 EST Subject: History of "Spider Hole" Message-ID: Maybe someone already mentioned this? There is an entry for SPIDER HOLES in A DICTIONARY OF SOLDIER TALK, by Colonel John R. Elting, USA Ret. et al. (Scribner's, 1984). It says: "(Modern) s. Small concealed firing positions from which snipes emerge to shoot at patrolling troops. Probably from the ingenious lair of the trapdoor spider, which darats from its hole to snatch unwayr prey." In a message dated 12/14/03 5:03:50 PM, dave at WILTON.NET writes: > >    "Spider hole" is not in OED.   There are almost a thousand Google > hits, > > and tons of hits today....Spiderman could not be reached for comment. > > It is in the SOED. > > I first heard the term when I was in the Army, mid-80s. I suspect, but don't > have the citations to prove it, that it dates to WWII. The use of > spider-holes was a tactic used by Japanese snipers--but the term could have > been applied retroactively. > > Until now, I only new the term as a type of fighting position, dug to be > used in an ambush. It will be interesting to see if this incident spawns a > new sense meaning a hiding place, as opposed to a place from which to spring > an ambush. > > The metaphor is one of a spider that digs a hole and lies in wait for prey > to come by as opposed to spinning a web. > > --Dave Wilton >   dave at wilton.net > From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Dec 19 03:06:57 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:06:57 -0600 Subject: Spigotty--parallels in Slavic and Greek Message-ID: Sam Clements spotted the 1908 Saturday Evening Post article which clarifies that "spigotty" (Latino) derives from the Pidgin English of Panamanians who said "(No) spik d' English" (22 Aug. 2003 ads-l message). Barry Popik then added his 15 Dec. 2003 message presenting the entire article. An interesting parallel turns up in Slavic: nemec "German," known to derive from nem- "dumb, mute." Cf. also Greek barbaroi "all who were not Greek or did not speak Greek"--known to derive from a stammering/babbling "bar-bar-bar." Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 19 03:47:19 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:47:19 -0500 Subject: Nose Man (1975); Gotham Center's revised "Big Apple" FAQ Message-ID: NOSE MAN Fred Shapiro tackled my "nose"--with the full text NEW YORK TIMES! That's the last place I would have looked, simply because I assumed that OED had already looked there! 3 November 1975, SPORTS ILLUSTRATED, "Houston gives 'em Bum's rush," pg. 62, col. 3: Culp became the nose man of Phillips' three-man front, which includes Defensive Ends Tody Smith and Elvin Bethea. (I'm more of a leg man myself--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ GOTHAM CENTER'S BIG APPLE FAQ (continued) The Gotham Center has just changed its "Big Apple" FAQ. The whores are no longer mentioned: http://gothamcenter.org/faq.shtml Why is New York called the "Big Apple"? According Gerald Leonard Cohen's Origin of New York City's Nickname ‘The Big Apple' (New York: Peter Lang, 1991), while "apple" in American slang means "fellow" and "big apple" means "big shot," the first consistent use of the term to apply to New York City came in the 1920s. John J. Fitz Gerald, a horseracing reporter for the Morning Telegraph, used the term (in columns from 1921-1927) for "New York City racetracks," and that sense of it – the metropolitan thoroughbred racing circuit – entered general usage after 1928. Walter Winchell used it in a 1927 column to refer to Broadway ("Broadway is the Big Apple, the Main Stem, the goal of all ambition, the pot of gold at the end of a drab and somewhat colorless rainbow."). In the 1930s black jazz musicians applied the terms "the apple" or, less often, "the big apple" to Harlem or to the entire city, with overtones, again, of the ‘big time'. In 1937 a dance called "the big apple" was launched in an African-American nightclub called "Fat Sam's Big Apple," in Columbia, South Carolina, and became a short lived national craze. In 1971, Charles Gillett, then president of the New York Convention & Visitors Bureau, used the term as a name for New York City, in a marketing campaign, after which it won wide acceptance as a synonym for Gotham. "Big Apple" is a synonym for "Gotham." Only the Gotham Center would say this. The Gotham Center teaches New York City history in the schools. This FAQ is important to the GC. It was just awarded two million dollars, as reported in today's newspapers: http://www.gothamcenter.org/news/tahg2003.shtml Teaching American History Grant in the News New York Times - Metro Briefing David M. Herszenhorn December 18, 2003 MANHATTAN: GRANT FOR TEACHING CITY HISTORY The federal Department of Education has awarded $2 million to promote the teaching of New York City history, Schools Chancellor Joel I. Klein and Michael Wallace, the director of City University's Gotham Center for New York City History, said yesterday. The money will be used to incorporate municipal history into existing social studies programs and to train teachers in summer institutes. It will also be used in an advanced fellows program and to hold a conference on history instruction for 750 teachers in 2005. New York Post - FEDS BOO$T HISTORY CLASSES CARL CAMPANILE December 18, 2003 The federal government is giving city public schools a $2 million grant to train teachers so they can better teach kids about New York City and American history. Schools Chancellor Joel Klein, who wants to promote history as part of the city curriculum, announced the award at the City Hall Academy with Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Mike Wallace, co-author of "Gotham: A History of New York City to 1898." New York Sun - New York Desk Staff Reporter Deccember 18, 2003 CITY SCHOOLS GET $2M HISTORY GRANT The federal government handed city schools an early Christmas gift yesterday: $2 million to spruce up history lessons. The Teaching American History Grant--one of two in the country--was awarded to the Education Department, the Gotham Center for New York, and City University of New York. It will be dedicated to training hundreds of teachers in American and New York City history so they can create social studies lessons that fit into the demanding new reading program. "We are going to show how crucial New York City has been to American history," said Schools Chancellor Joel Klein at City Hall Academy, a school where students attend two-week sessions on the Big Apple's history. The Big Apple's history. Of this two million dollar grant I receive--well, I've never made anything. I don't even receive a kind word. After the first dreadful FAQ was made, I walked into the Gotham Center offices. I told them about Gerald Cohen's monograph and the entry in the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF NEW YORK CITY (1995). I copied John J. Fitz Gerald's 1924 and 1926 columns, where he explained that he'd gotten "the Big Apple" from black stablehands in New Orleans. I told the Gotham Center that my work on this occurred after Cohen had published the book. I e-mailed Gerald Cohen that the revised FAQ is straight from the book, and that the stablehands' words were left out. Cohen e-mailed the Gotham Center. The Gotham Center requested this additional information--the same information I had walked into the office and personally handed to the Gotham Center to start this whole FAQ-revision thing off. Tomorrow, the growling etymologist heads back to the Triangle Factory, the 21st-century New York City government workplace without fire alarms, fire exits, or fresh air. A person with the flu is going to sit a few inches away from me and sneeze in my face. If you ever think of doing a good deed in New York City, just kill yourself. From dwhause at JOBE.NET Fri Dec 19 04:49:41 2003 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:49:41 -0600 Subject: Sky Hook (1971) Message-ID: Not basketball, but I think I remember seeing it in 50s or 60 science fiction, probably Robert Heinlein or Arthur C. Clark. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: Which came first, the "rainbow" or the "sky"? The LOS ANGELES TIMES should have coverage of Lew Alcindor's college career at UCLA in the 1960s. Was the "sky hook" invented there? From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Dec 19 05:00:00 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:00:00 -0500 Subject: Sky Hook (1971) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Hause" To: Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 11:49 PM Subject: Re: Sky Hook (1971) > Not basketball, but I think I remember seeing it in 50s or 60 science > fiction, probably Robert Heinlein or Arthur C. Clark. I always though of Heinlein and Clark as more the two-handed set-shot types, but you could be right. Of course, M-W cites it from 1915 in its literal sense. SC From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Fri Dec 19 05:37:46 2003 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight, MLIS) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:37:46 -0800 Subject: Sky Hook (1971) In-Reply-To: <036e01c3c5eb$8ff6abc0$445f12d0@dwhause> Message-ID: Perhaps... <<< snip >>> The Times, Tuesday, Aug 25, 1953; pg. 3; Issue 52709; col D Launching Rockets From Balloons Cheaper Research At High Altitudes FROM OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT. "Dr. Van Allen explained that a small rocket weighing 200lb., carrying 30lb of scientific equipment, could be lifted to 70,000ft. by suspending it from a plastic balloon of the "sky-hook" type, and then automatically released to continue its upward journey under its own power." <<< snip >>> Other examples abound, but have little to do with basketball. At 08:49 PM 12/18/03, you wrote: >Not basketball, but I think I remember seeing it in 50s or 60 science >fiction, probably Robert Heinlein or Arthur C. Clark. >Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net >Ft. Leonard Wood, MO >----- Original Message ----- >From: > Which came first, the "rainbow" or the "sky"? > The LOS ANGELES TIMES should have coverage of Lew Alcindor's college >career at UCLA in the 1960s. Was the "sky hook" invented there? ------------------------------------------------------------- James L. Knight Pourvoyeur et Chef du Cuisine, Chateau des Trois Geckos "This is the sort of English up with which I will not put." _ Winston Churchill _ jlk at 3geckos.net http://www.3geckos.net 360 378 9254 From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Dec 19 11:30:19 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:30:19 -0500 Subject: Sky Hook (1971) In-Reply-To: <004a01c3c5ec$f6aa1040$fc20a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: > > Not basketball, but I think I remember seeing it in 50s or 60 science > > fiction, probably Robert Heinlein or Arthur C. Clark. > > I always though of Heinlein and Clark as more the two-handed > set-shot types, > but you could be right. > > Of course, M-W cites it from 1915 in its literal sense. The OED2 has "1966 Science 11 Feb. 682 (heading) Satellite elongation into a true ‘sky-hook’" which I believe is a reference to the satellite idea promulgated in science fiction. (It's hard to tell without more context. The idea is a satellite in geostationary orbit that is connected to the ground by a cable that can be used to lift objects.) The OED's science fiction citations site (http://www.jessesword.com/SF/sf.shtml) says that there are some references to "skyhooks" in 50s science fiction titles, but the works have not been found. From orinkh at CARR.ORG Fri Dec 19 11:47:46 2003 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:47:46 -0500 Subject: "A hole big enough to drive a truck through" (1922) Message-ID: > Holes to drive a truck through? > I found this idiom/catchphrase while searching SPORTING NEWS. A football offensive line has opened a huge hole for the running back to pass through--so huge you can drive a truck through the hole. The catchphrase has been used for holes in movie/political logic, but why would you "drive a truck" through there? Maybe you can drive an SUV through, instead? > The Brit equivalent phrase is "drive a coach and horses through," which on the face of it would seem to date from an earlier time. Perhaps the truck version is just a transatlantic, 20th c. update? Orin Hargraves From mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 19 14:02:12 2003 From: mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:02:12 -0500 Subject: "using his French" Message-ID: My wife, Rene Szafir Mandel, asks the following interesting question: The use of "French [language]" for 'coarse language' shows up twice in a recent NY Times article (December 15, 2003, "Bearing Questions, 4 New Iraqi Leaders Pay Hussein a Visit", By IAN FISHER -- a cute title for the pre-Christmas season). It's not clear from the article whether the person quoted ("Mowaffak al-Rubaie, a Governing Council member") was speaking English or whether his words are translated. But this usage, which I have not seen before, looks like it might be a non-native use erroneously extrapolated from the idiom "Pardon my French", used after using vulgar language. Does anyone know? Here's the quote, the last four paragraphs of the article: >>> Mr. Rubaie said: "One thing which is very important is that this man had with him underground when they arrested him two AK-47's and did not shoot one bullet. I told him, `You keep on saying that you are a brave man and a proud Arab.' I said, `When they arrested you why didn't you shoot one bullet? You are a coward.' " "And he started to use very colorful language," he said. "Basically he used all his French." "I was so angry because this guy has caused so much damage," Mr. Rubaie added. "He has ruined the whole country. He has ruined 25 million people." "And I have to confess that the last word was for me," he continued. "I was the last to leave the room and I said, `May God curse you. Tell me, when are you going to be accountable to God and the day of judgment? What are you going to tell him about Halabja and the mass graves, the Iran-Iraq war, thousands and thousands executed? What are you going to tell God?' He was exercising his French language." Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company <<< -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Dec 19 14:45:47 2003 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:45:47 EST Subject: Sky Hook (1971) Message-ID: In a message dated > Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:49:41 -0600, Dave Hause < > dwhause at JOBE.NET> writeth > > Not basketball, but I think I remember seeing it in 50s or 60 science > fiction, probably Robert Heinlein or Arthur C. Clark. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > The LOS ANGELES TIMES should have coverage of Lew Alcindor's college > career at UCLA in the 1960s. Was the "sky hook" invented there? Thats "Arthur C. Clarke" and yes, I have a vague memory that he once used the phrase. The term "sky hook" has an interesting history. At one time it was classified! DOD had a Project Skyhook starting in the late 1940's which involved flying helium balloons. Unfortunately the project was kept classified for years, with the result that a large number of UFO sightings which were actually Skyhook balloons went unexplained. The earliest written citation I can find is 1948. Volume I number 1 of the fanzine _Skyhook_, edited by Redd Boggs, was the issue for winter, 1948. Reference: URL http://fanac.org/fanzines/SkyHook/ The ultimate origin of "sky hook" is, I am pretty sure, folklore. Possibly a tall tale, "I had no other way to hold it, so I grabbed a sky hook and...". See, for example, URL http://www.prosoundweb.com/lighting/tech_reference/bill/terms/terms3.shtml "Hasn't everybody at some time wished they had a Sky Hook to magically hang something. Especially where there is no fly space!" Another possibliity is that it started out as a practical joke of the snipe-hunt variety, as in the following account (dated September 1967 but the gag could be decades older): Now remember, I am right out of boot camp and don't know much about anything. So while I was walking around the ship, Gunner's Mate Truett Brannen asked me to help him so I said sure. He was working on one of the 3-inch guns which looked very big to me and said he needed a sky hook. I asked where it was and he said it was up front. So I went up front. Never being up front before I found myself on the bridge. This little old man was sitting in a big chair on the port side. I was looking high and low for the sky hook. The man watched me for a while. I saw him looking at me so I said "Hi, how are doing." He asked, "Can I help you?" So I told him I was looking for a sky hook. He the asked who wanted it, so I turned around on the bridge and looked back so I could see the guy who sent me up their. At the time I did not now his name so I pointed to him. There were three guys laughing and pointing to me but they could not see who I was with. As soon as this man came around the corner to see who I was pointing at everyone ran. The man the said "You don't know who I am, do you?" I said no I didn't. He then told me he was "The Old Man," the captain. He said that I should get back to work and tell the guy that sent me looking for the sky hook to come and see him. I never heard what happened but after awhile Brannen and I became friends and I began to learn navy protocol. Yes sir, my naval education had begun. from URL http://www.ussnoxubee.com/skyhook.html A similar hoary naval gag is to give a new sailor a hook and tell him to snag the mail buoy as it goes by. Other professions have similar gags. A one-time boss of mine once, with a straight face, put in a requisition for a "bit bucket". In the printing business a new apprentice is told to go get a "type stretcher" (I imagine this one is falling into oblivion now that Linotype machines are getting to be museum pieces.) - James A. Landau From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 19 15:33:12 2003 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:33:12 -0800 Subject: Sky Hook (1971) In-Reply-To: <1e0.15f61790.2d14691b@aol.com> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2003, at 6:45 AM, James A. Landau wrote: > Another possibliity is that it started out as a practical joke of the > snipe-hunt variety, as in the following account (dated September 1967 > but the gag > could be decades older):... it was a staple of my time in summer camp (1948-53 at the first, in wernersville, pa.) that new boys were sent out to find a snipe and/or fetch a sky hook. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Vocabula at AOL.COM Fri Dec 19 16:20:30 2003 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:20:30 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?In=20the=20December=20issue=20of=20The=20Vocabula?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20Review=A0?= Message-ID: In the December issue of The Vocabula Review  Now online: www.vocabula.com Organ Solo: Masturbation Words -- Mark Morton Math and Meaning -- Brian Kimberling Things They Told Me Not to Do -- Amalia Gnanadesikan Satire: Tool of the Surgeon -- Jim Kittle The Abdominal Snowman -- Richard Lederer Sound Off: Spell, Memory! -- Clifton Raphael The Elder Statesman: Child's Play with Words -- Clark Elder Morrow The Last Word: Too Wretched for Words -- Chris Orlet Love Your English: Blog and Be Merry -- Valerie Collins Grumbling About Grammar Elegant English On Dimwitticisms Clues to Concise Writing Scarcely Used Words Oddments and Miscellanea On the Bookshelf  Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review www.vocabula.com ______________________ The Vocabula Review $8.95 a year www.vocabula.com ______________________   Five by Fiske: The five essays included in this volume are as follows: "The Decline of the Dictionary"; "The Perfectibility of Words" and "The Imperfectibility of People," chapters 1 and 2 of The Dictionary of Concise Writing; "Expressions That Dull Our Reason and Dim Our Insight" and "Writing That Demands to Be Read Aloud, Speech That Calls to Be Captured in Print," chapters 1 and 2 of The Dimwit's Dictionary. http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooks.htm#VRfiveby ______________________ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 United States Tel: (781) 861-1515 From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Fri Dec 19 17:45:33 2003 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight, MLIS) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:45:33 -0800 Subject: "A hole big enough to drive a truck through" (1922) In-Reply-To: <3FD3B74D@mail.carr.org> Message-ID: Some "coach and horses" citations... The Times, Saturday, Feb 09, 1833; pg. 1; Issue 15084; col B House Of Commons, Friday, Feb. 8. ... Speaking of that act, Lord Eldon had said that most acts were so drawn up that a person of ordinary ingenuity could drive a coach and horses through them, yet that one set had been so loosely framed that fleets and armies could pass through it. ... The Times, Monday, Oct 17, 1864; pg. 8; Issue 25005; col A France. (FROM OUR OWN CORRESPONDENT.). Foreign Intelligence ... The proceedings of the Bismark Cabinet in the case of these functionaries, as in many cases, are completely opposed to the spirit of the Consitution. If they had their own way they would be perfectly ready to violate the letter as well, or to shelve the whole document as a superfluous and impertinent farrago. But the King is there to save the letter, although he accepts interpretations which enable his Ministers to drive a coach and horse through the spirit. ... The Times, Friday, May 14, 1886; pg. 13; Issue 31759; col A The Canadian Fisheries And The Seizure Of The David J. Adams. (FROM A CORRESPONDENT.). ... Now for the argument by the aid of which the Americans wish to drive a coach and horses through the Convention of 1818. They say that the ordinary rights of trading which they accord to British vessels ought to be reciprocated by the Canadians; ... Hope that helps. -jk At 03:47 AM 12/19/03, you wrote: > > Holes to drive a truck through? > > I found this idiom/catchphrase while searching SPORTING NEWS. A football >offensive line has opened a huge hole for the running back to pass through--so >huge you can drive a truck through the hole. The catchphrase has been used >for holes in movie/political logic, but why would you "drive a truck" through >there? Maybe you can drive an SUV through, instead? > > >The Brit equivalent phrase is "drive a coach and horses through," which on the >face of it would seem to date from an earlier time. Perhaps the truck version >is just a transatlantic, 20th c. update? > >Orin Hargraves From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 19 18:18:26 2003 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:18:26 -0800 Subject: deedly-ball Message-ID: another member of the deely-bob etc. family that we talked about here a while back: "deedly-ball", which i encountered in a comic essay on gay life, "POP QUIZ--How "Martha Are You?", in Joel Perry's _Funny That Way: Adventures in Fabulousness_ (Los Angeles/New York: Alyson Books, 2001). p. 164: Phenomenally successful as she [Martha Stewart] is, there are still among us who think flower-patterned drapes with deedly-ball fringe are chic. the meaning is perfectly clear from the context (especially if you've seen the curtain style in question), but the label is new to me. a google search nets only one citation, and that's perry's original essay as published in Instinct magazine of 11/12/98. there are no hits for "deely-ball" or "dealy-ball". arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), on the fringe From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 19 18:33:40 2003 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:33:40 -0800 Subject: deedly-ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2003, at 10:18 AM, i wrote: > "POP QUIZ--How "Martha Are You?"... make that: "POP QUIZ--How 'Martha' Are You?" arnold, pleading genuine gimpiness From patty at CRUZIO.COM Fri Dec 19 18:42:37 2003 From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:42:37 -0800 Subject: deedly-ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've never heard of this descript either. And I pulled out my oldest sewing book, copyright 1972,and it was called "knotted fringe" and says "Before fringing an edge, make a test tassel to decide best length and thickness. There are two methods for making knotted fringe." Doesn't mention attaching a ball to the tassel. interested in dealy-ball stuff for no particular reason :} Patty At 10:18 AM 12/19/03 -0800, you wrote: >another member of the deely-bob etc. family that we talked about here a >while back: "deedly-ball", which i encountered in a comic essay on gay >life, "POP QUIZ--How "Martha Are You?", in Joel Perry's _Funny That >Way: Adventures in Fabulousness_ (Los Angeles/New York: Alyson Books, >2001). p. 164: > > Phenomenally successful as she [Martha Stewart] is, there are still >among us who think flower-patterned drapes with deedly-ball fringe are >chic. > >the meaning is perfectly clear from the context (especially if you've >seen the curtain style in question), but the label is new to me. > >a google search nets only one citation, and that's perry's original >essay as published in Instinct magazine of 11/12/98. there are no hits >for "deely-ball" or "dealy-ball". > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), on the fringe From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM Fri Dec 19 18:34:40 2003 From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Le May) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 12:34:40 -0600 Subject: deedly-ball In-Reply-To: <20031219181851.GGVE3532.sccmmhc01.mchsi.com@sccmmhc01.mchsi.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Arnold M. Zwicky > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 12:18 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: deedly-ball > ------------- > > another member of the deely-bob etc. family that we talked about here a > while back: "deedly-ball", which i encountered in a comic essay on gay > life, "POP QUIZ--How "Martha Are You?", in Joel Perry's _Funny That > Way: Adventures in Fabulousness_ (Los Angeles/New York: Alyson Books, > 2001). p. 164: Kurt Vonnegut used it in one of his novels. I can't recall which one. Bill Le May From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Dec 19 18:59:44 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:59:44 -0500 Subject: "A hole big enough to drive a truck through" (1922) Message-ID: Many of the citations seem to be to "coach and six" or "coach and four." It is often cited to Macaulay's History of England for driving a coach and six through an Act of Parliament, but appears to be older. From the Gutenberg edition of Sheridan's The Critic, first performed in 1779: >>_Probe_. I wish he was run through the heart, and I should get the more credit by his cure. Now I hope you are satisfied? Come, now let me come at him--now let me come at him.-- [_Viewing his wound._] Oops I what a gash is here! why, sir, a man may drive a coach and six horses into your body.<< John Baker From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Dec 19 19:42:16 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:42:16 -0500 Subject: deedly-ball In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031219102532.00aa1070@mail.cruzio.com> Message-ID: >I've never heard of this descript either. And I pulled out my oldest >sewing book, copyright 1972,and it was called "knotted fringe" and says >"Before fringing an edge, make a test tassel to decide best length and >thickness. There are two methods for making knotted fringe." Doesn't >mention attaching a ball to the tassel. > >interested in dealy-ball stuff for no particular reason :} > >Patty ~~~~~~~ The ball fringe familiar to me from my childhood wasn't merely knotted fringe, but had actual chenille balls, like miniature stocking cap bobbles, attached at frequent -- say, 3/4 in -- intervals, hanging from little stems, like petioles. [It was often used on plain linen crash curtains. Adding it to floral patterns sounds a bit much!] A. Murie From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 19 20:00:23 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:00:23 -0500 Subject: "A hole big enough to drive a truck through" (1922) In-Reply-To: <200312191859.hBJIxpV06469@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Baker, John wrote: > Many of the citations seem to be to "coach and six" or "coach > and four." It is often cited to Macaulay's History of England for > driving a coach and six through an Act of Parliament, but appears to be > older. From the Gutenberg edition of Sheridan's The Critic, first > performed in 1779: The _locus classicus_ is Stephen Rice, quoted in W. King, _State of the Protestants of Ireland_ (1672): "I will drive a coach and six horses through the Act of Settlement." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Fri Dec 19 21:31:51 2003 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:31:51 -0500 Subject: Sky Hook Message-ID: Unless you are looking for a specific reference to Alcindor: I encountered "sky hook" in the Army in the late '60s, as a facetious explanation of how something could be lifted or moved easily by means of a hook lowered from the (clear blue) sky. Somehow we were never allocated a sky hook and ended up using muscle power. I was never sent to the supply sergeant to get a sky hook, but it is in the same category as the gunner's daughter and checkerboard paint, not to mention left-handed smoke shifters and monkey wrenches. Certain models of the CH-54 heavy lift helicopter are called Sky Crane, and lift hooks on some helicopters, including the familiar CH-47 Chinook and the CH-53 are called sky hooks. http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/jets/sky-crane/info/info.htm AHD has "Skyhook: A helicopter whose fuselage is configured so as to be mounted with a steel line and hook used to lift and transport heavy objects." Seán Fitzpatrick 2+2=5, for extremely large values of 2. From orinkh at CARR.ORG Fri Dec 19 21:43:06 2003 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:43:06 -0500 Subject: "A hole big enough to drive a truck through" (1922) Message-ID: The OED pretty well documents various forms of the idiom and the development of it, though it doesn't have a specific quote for "coach and horses," which I believe is the preferred current form of the expression -- in speech anyway. I think the challenge for those adroit at playing the antedating game is establishing a link between the Brit form and the US form. Are there early US cites for the Brit version (we used horses too, didn't we?)? If so, truck would be a pretty natural follow-on once we entered the motor age. Orin Hargraves From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Fri Dec 19 21:50:54 2003 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:50:54 -0500 Subject: deedly-ball Message-ID: A search of Google Advanced Groups found two cites, using different spellings, but referring to the same object. Deadly ball: http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22deedly+ball%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&selm=3C8FEAC1.65839AD8%40bellsouth.net&rnum=1 Deely ball: http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22deely+ball%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&selm=3c8fee20%241_1%40corp-news.newsgroups.com&rnum=1 I used Google's Advanced Groups Search to locate the above. http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en Nothing was found in a search of the Google print site. http://www.google.com/search?&q=site:print.google.com+ George Cole Shippensburg University From hstahlke at BSU.EDU Sat Dec 20 03:21:31 2003 From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:21:31 -0500 Subject: Fair use and Brohaugh's English through the Ages Message-ID: I just picked up a used copy of William Brohaugh's English through the Ages (Writer's Digest Books 1998), a peculiar sort of dictionary. It's essentially a wordlist, about 57,000 words, arranged by time periods of decreasing length: Old English (to 1150), Middle English, down to centuries for EME, quarter centuries for the 19th c. and decades for the 20th. Within each period words of organized by topic and chonologically within topic. A typical entry offers part of speech, brief definition, and date of first recorded use. It looks like the sort of work that could be produced by programmed searches of the OED on CD, but he makes no mention of the OED. Even in his one-page "Selected Bibliography" the only standard etymological dictionaries listed are Morris, Room, Weekley, Ayto, Hoad's Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology, and The Merriam-Webster New Book of Word Histories. Only Weekley is given a publication date. The Library Journal review on Amazon says of this curious book, "An interesting but not essential purchase for larger libraries.? [sic]" The MLA bib lists no references to the book This raises a question that our local copyrights specialist has asked me about a project I'm working on. How does the OED define fair use? Herb From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Dec 20 03:14:11 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:14:11 -0600 Subject: Sky Hook Message-ID: I also remember it from summer camp. At the age of 14 and 15 (1955-1956) I attended a camp called Shaker Village, somewhere in NY State. (If I remember right, the religious sect known as the Shakers had once lived there). One older fellow (early 20s?) several times humorously referred to "a Shaker sky hook." All I remember about this is that it was something non-existent. Gerald Cohen At 7:33 AM -0800 12/19/03, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > >On Dec 19, 2003, at 6:45 AM, James A. Landau wrote: > >> Another possibliity is that it started out as a practical joke of the >>snipe-hunt variety, as in the following account (dated September 1967 >>but the gag >>could be decades older):... > >it was a staple of my time in summer camp (1948-53 at the first, in >wernersville, pa.) that new boys were sent out to find a snipe and/or >fetch a sky hook. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 20 03:58:43 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:58:43 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Stone Age" In-Reply-To: <3FD3F82B@mail.carr.org> Message-ID: Stone Age (OED 1864) 1844 _Jrnl. Royal Geographical Soc. London_ XIV. 319 Almost all the articles received are such as have been dug up in Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, or Ohio, and consist chiefly of stone implements, which bear a remarkable resemblance to our Scandinavian antiquities of the stone age. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 20 12:03:36 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 07:03:36 EST Subject: Augusta Chronicle and Arnie's Army (1961), Vidalia Onion (1969), Half-Moon Pie Message-ID: AUGUST CHRONICLE (WWW.AUGUSTAARCHIVES.COM) The AUGUSTA CHRONICLE (Georgia) bills itself as "The South's oldest newspaper--established 1785." See "Digitization is a success for the Augusta Archives," LIBRARY NEWS, Fall 2003, pg. 10: http://www.ibiblio.org/slanews/nln/nln03/nln261.pdf. I think that Fred Shapiro left "www.augustaarchives.com" off his list of computer databases. Augusta Archives appears to use the same technology as the Utah newspaper project. It's a little better than Ancestry, which isn't saying much. I was surprised the most by what I didn't find, such as "chess pie." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ARNIE'S ARMY It's a year earlier at the Augusta National. 7 April 1961, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 12-A, cols. 7-8: _Did "Arnie's Army" cost_ _Player a stroke on 13th?_ By VERNON BUTLER Associated Press Sports Writer 12 April 1961, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 6, col. 1 (by Johnny Hendrix, sports editor): All the mass wasn't composed of Arnie's Army, as the Palmer gallery was called. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- VIDALIA ONION This is just slightly after OED's May 1969 citation. DARE? 9 June 1969, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 10, col. 3 (Piggly Wiggly ad): TRY'EM--YOU'LL LOVE 'UM VIDALIA ONIONS 3 LBS. 29c ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MILK SHAKE A little later than the ATLANTA CONSTITUTION. 28 April 1888, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 4, col. 4: AUGUSTA NATIONAL EXPOSITION Bids for Provoleges. (...) Milk Shake. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MOON PIE Although there is a trademarked "moon pie" from Chattanooga, Tennessee, "moon pie" is given on a Google Groups list of "American Regional Food" as a specialty of Atlanta. 26 March 1908, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 8, col. 3: Bill Donohoo with his famous "citterlings" and cracklin' bread and Mrs. Donohoo with her old time half moon pies and "simmon beer" (that the Georgia legislature can't take away from us and give to somebody else.) 23 February 1915, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 6, col. 3: _Cutting the Pie Six Ways._ The rise in prices of food stuffs on account of the European disturbances has not escaped the restaurant pir. In Atlanta the order has been sent down the line to cut pies into six pieces, and to sell each piece for a nickel. Foremrly the pies were cut in quarters and each pieces sold for a nickel. Now the respectable moon pie sells for thirty cents, instead of twenty cents as formerly.--Lavonia Times. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 20 13:13:44 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:13:44 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Civilization" In-Reply-To: <200312201203.hBKC3on26295@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: civilization (OED, 2., 1775) 1764 William Wood _New-England's Prospect_ 94 As every attempt to civilize them [the Indians], since the first settlement of this coutnry, hath proved abortive, if we consider the necessity of this civilization, previous to Christianity, it will rather appear a Utopian amusement, than a probable pursuit. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 20 13:37:40 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:37:40 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Cultural Relativism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: cultural relativism (OED 1958) 1937 _Jrnl. Philosophy_ 34: 28 On Cultural Relativism in Ethics ... S. Kerby Miller. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 20 14:35:34 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 09:35:34 -0500 Subject: What is Earliest Musical Usage of "Jazz"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There has been much discussion here about the earliest use of the word "jazz" meaning "vigor." But it seems to me also of great interest to trace the earliest use of "jazz" in its musical sense. Has there been any investigation of that question? The earliest precisely dated citation in HDAS is from Variety, 27 Oct. 1916. But the book _Lost Chords: White Musicians and Their Contribution to Jazz_ by Richard M. Sudhalter notes the following: "A September 30, 1916, Chicago Defender article refers to a 'jass band' led by black pianist-songwriter H. Benton Overstreet ('There'll Be Some Changes Made'), accompanying vaudeville singer Estella Harris." Does anyone have anything earlier than this? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 20 14:44:15 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 09:44:15 -0500 Subject: More on Musical "Jazz" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Sudhalter book "Lost Chords," which seems to be of questionable scholarliness, also refers to a possible usage of "jazz" in the spring of 1916: On Saturday evening, April 29, a strike force of sixty upstanding Chicago ladies descended on caf after South Side caf, determined to beard the devil in his lair. One such den was Schiller's, by then featuring "Stein's Band From Dixie." "A line of taxi cabs radiated from the Schiller to the east, west, north, and south," one report said. "In front of the doors, a crowd of people fought for admission. A perspiring doorman held them back. `Can't come in,' he shouted. `We're crowded to capacity. Wait 'til some of the others come out.'" The ladies' "findings" duly appeared in the Chicago Herald, under the headline SIXTY WOMEN RIP MASK FROM VICE: It was impossible for anyone to be heard. The shriek of women's drunken laughter rivaled the blatant scream of the imported New Orleans Jass Band, which never seemed to stop playing. Men and woman sat, arms about each other, singing, shouting, making the night hideous, while their unfortunate brethren and sisters fought in vain to join them. [end of excerpt from book] This seems to be claiming that the Chicago Herald used the term "jass band" shortly after Apr. 29, 1916. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Sat Dec 20 17:07:40 2003 From: mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 12:07:40 -0500 Subject: Sky Hook (1971) In-Reply-To: <200312200500.hBK50dk8026739@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Dave Wilton writes: >>> begin quote >>> The OED2 has "1966 Science 11 Feb. 682 (heading) Satellite elongation into a true 'sky-hook'" which I believe is a reference to the satellite idea promulgated in science fiction. (It's hard to tell without more context. The idea is a satellite in geostationary orbit that is connected to the ground by a cable that can be used to lift objects.) The OED's science fiction citations site (http://www.jessesword.com/SF/sf.shtml) says that there are some references to "skyhooks" in 50s science fiction titles, but the works have not been found. <<< end quote <<< [Non-ASCII gibberish replaced with apostrophes / vertical single-quotes] A more recent sf term for such a construct is "beanstalk". The concept is central to Clarke's novel _The Fountains of Paradise_, and he also used it in _3001_, the last (and imho least) of the the 2001 n-ology. But iirc I first saw this name for it in Kim Stanley Robinson's _Red Mars_, first of a trilogy (followed by Blue and Green). Wikipedia has a long entry on it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/space+elevator), crediting Tsiolkovsky with the basic concept in 1895, and Artsutanov in 1957 with the idea of building it top-down (starting from the satellite) rather than from the ground up. Google yields about 100 hits for "beanstalk geostationary", and I don't feel like digging through them for an earliest cite, especially since Jesse's sf-OED project may well already have found one... Hmm, I don't see an entry there for "beanstalk". Over to you, Jesse! -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Dec 20 17:16:23 2003 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 12:16:23 EST Subject: Sky Hook (1971) Message-ID: "James Knight, MLIS" wrote > The Times, Tuesday, Aug 25, 1953; pg. 3; Issue 52709; col D > Launching Rockets From Balloons Cheaper Research At High Altitudes FROM > OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT. > > "Dr. Van Allen explained that a small rocket weighing 200lb., carrying 30lb > of scientific equipment, could be lifted to 70,000ft. by suspending it from > a plastic balloon of the "sky-hook" type, and then automatically released > to continue its upward journey under its own power." My statement that the Skyhook project was classified is from a book I read many years ago (and not available on Amazon.com). Judging from the above quote and from a similar 1951 citation in the OED2, the name "Skyhook" was not classified, although the actual launchings of the balloons may have been. (Or else the OED publishes citations from classified documents! No wonder Jesse Sheidlower uses the alias "Jester"). Seán Fitzpatrick writes > I was never sent > to the supply sergeant to get a sky hook, but it is in the same category > as the gunner's daughter and checkerboard paint, not to mention > left-handed smoke shifters and monkey wrenches. Checkerboard paint is obvious, but I am not familiar with the reference to "the gunner's daughter." Left-handed [monkey wrenches] do exist---they are identical to right-handed monkey wrenches except that the label is reversed. OED2 under "sky hook" has a 1970 citation for "lleft-handed wrench". I am suspicious of the existence of a "smoke shifter", whether or not it comes in right- and left-handed versions. If we continue much further, we will be in danger of disproving the existence of "left-handed compliments". Sam Clements wrote: >I always though of Heinlein and Clark [sic] as more the two-handed set-shot types, I have met both Heinlein and Clarke. Heinlein seemed to be the physically stolid type (but that may have been because he was 70 at the time). Clarke is at least moderately athletic---his long-time hobby was scuba diving and I once took a photo of him dancing rather energetically at a SFWA party. - Jim Landau Macabre headline of the week (from the always-reliable AOL News) After New al-Qaida Threats Jacksons Gather at Neverland From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Dec 20 19:38:00 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 13:38:00 -0600 Subject: What is Earliest Musical Usage of "Jazz"? Message-ID: Fred Shapiro today sent two messages about the possible earliest musical usage of "jazz" coming about April 29 and Sept. 30, 1916. Below my signoff is Fred's first message and then a reprint of a few earlier messages. Musical "jazz" may go back to 1915, but I'm not sure if there's hard evidence of this. Gerald Cohen At 9:35 AM -0500 12/20/03, Fred Shapiro wrote: >There has been much discussion here about the earliest use of the word >"jazz" meaning "vigor." But it seems to me also of great interest to >trace the earliest use of "jazz" in its musical sense. Has there been any >investigation of that question? The earliest precisely dated citation in >HDAS is from Variety, 27 Oct. 1916. But the book _Lost Chords: White >Musicians and Their Contribution to Jazz_ by Richard M. Sudhalter notes >the following: > >"A September 30, 1916, Chicago Defender article refers to a 'jass band' >led by black pianist-songwriter H. Benton Overstreet ('There'll Be Some >Changes Made'), accompanying vaudeville singer Estella Harris." > >Does anyone have anything earlier than this? > >Fred Shapiro ******* Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:07:24 -0500 From: George Thompson Subject: Re: Fwd (from Norm Cohen):"jazz" Comments: To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Keppard/Kepperd/Kepard/Keperd and several other possible misspellings don't show up in the Historical NYTimes from the 1910s. "Elaine & Her Creole Band" played at an All-Star Theatrical Benefit at the Shubert Theater, W44th, on May 21, 1916, advertized (in small type) on May 19 & 21. I have friends at the Shubert ARchive & will ask them whether they have any information of Elaine, esp. whether her Creole Band played jazz or whether Keppard ever played the Shubert chain, calling his music jazz. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Cohen Date: Wednesday, April 2, 2003 9:27 pm Subject: Fwd (from Norm Cohen):"jazz" > Norm Cohen (no relation) recently sent me a message about "jazz", > and with his permission I present it below my signoff. It pertains > to the early attestations of "jazz" in a musical sense. > > OED gives 1917 as the earliest attestation of "jazz" in a musical > sense; (set aside the 1909 example as an error). Meanwhile, Irving > Lewis Allen, _The City In Slang_, 1993, p.71, citing Gunther > Schuller's 1968 _Early Jazz..._, says: "In 1915 jazz was introduced > to New Yorkers in a vaudeville theater by Freddie Keppard's Creole > Band, but few took notice." > > Gerald Cohen > > > >From: "Norm Cohen" > >To: "Cohen, Gerald" > >Subject: "jazz" > >Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:32:52 -0800 > > > >Gerald: > >I came across the following reference to "jass," which while not > earth>shaking provides more evidence for its use in 1916. > >"According to the _Chicago Defender_, in October 1916 African > American>entertainer Estelle Harris was performing Spencer > Williams's tune > >"Sihim-Me-Sha-Wabble" with her "jass [sic] singers and dancers" > at the South > >Side's Grand Theater, located just across the street from the > Elite No. 1." > >footnote reference: Chicago Defender, Sept. 30, 1916, and Oct. > 14, 1916. > >This from an article by Rebecca A. Bryant, "Shaking Things Up: > Popularizing>the Shimmy in America," in American Music v. 20 no. 2 > (Summer 2002),168-187. > >The above quote is on p 170. The "sic" is hers. > >Norm > From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Sat Dec 20 23:13:55 2003 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 18:13:55 -0500 Subject: Sky Hook (1971) Message-ID: <> Does the digital community have "Go ask the [bo's'n, Scout Master, supply sergeant,] for the " jokes? Do geeks ask new guys to do Teoma searches for good prices on accelerated inverted transistoids? Seán Fitzpatrick From Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM Sun Dec 21 00:47:45 2003 From: Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM (Jewls2u) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 16:47:45 -0800 Subject: What is Earliest Musical Usage of "Jazz"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I do research for novelists, including myself, and this is what I came up with regarding Jazz/Jass: The legend goes like this: the word "Jass" was some vague slang for sex, and was associated with prostitution. Tom Brown's band had come North from New Orleans in 1915 and was playing a successful engagement at Lamb's Cafe (located at Clark and Randolph Streets) against the wishes of the Chicago musician's union. The term "Jass" was used by the union as a way to denigrate the band. In defiance of the union Brown and the club owner started advertising the band as Brown's Band From Dixieland . The union's insults backfired increasing the popularity of the group and causing the term "Jass" to forever be used to describe the New Orleans style of collective improvisation. http://www.redhotjazz.com/brown.html Roots of "JAZZ" A little bit of Etymology. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- JAS, JASS, JAZ JASCZ, or just plain JAZZ It is said that the expression -'Jazz'- arose during the late nineteenth century in the better brothels of New Orleans, which provided music and dancing as well as sex. The original jazz band, according to Herbert Asbury's 'The Latin Quarter'* (1938), was the 'Spasm (sic) Band', made up of seven boys, aged twelve to fifteen, who first appeared in New Orleans about 1895. They advertised themselves as the "Razzy Dazzy Spasm Band." When, about 1900, another band adopted the same billing for an appearance at the Haymarket dance hall, the 'Spasms' loaded their pockets with rocks and dropped by to protest the infringement. This prompted the owner of the hall to repaint his advertising placards to read: "Razzy Dazzy Jazzy Band!" If the memories of Asbury's sources were correct--and he talked to two surviving members of the 'Spasms' --this represents the word's earliest-known appearance in print. Jazz is not a bad word now, but almost certainly is of extremely low origin, referring to copulation before it was applied to music, dancing, and nonsense (i.e., "all that jazz"). "If the truth were known about the origin of 'Jazz' it would never be mentioned in polite society . . .The vulgar word 'Jazz' was in general currency in dance halls thirty years or more ago" (Clay Smith, "Etude," 9/24). "According to Raven I. McDavid, Sr., of Greenville, S.C., the announcement, in 1919, of the first 'Jazz band' to play in Columbia, where he was then serving in the state legislature, inspired feelings of terror among the local Baptists such as what might have been aroused by a personal appearance of Yahweh. Until that time 'jazz' had never been heard in the Palmetto States except as a verb meaning to copulate" (H. L. Mencken, 'The American Language,' Raven I. McDavid, Jr., 1963). "'She never stepped out of line once in all the years we been teamed up. I can't sell her on jazzing the chump now'" (William Lindsay Gresham, 'Nightmare Alley,' 1946). http://nfo.net/usa/etymol.html *This is actually from Herbert Asbury's book The French Quarter, 1936, pgs 437-8. I didn't look to verify any of the other cites because they are not referring to musical usage of jazz and are dated after 1915.> Julienne From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 21 00:53:13 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 19:53:13 -0500 Subject: "No Sweat" (Sept. 1950) and ProQuest's LA TIMES Message-ID: I'd worked from 8:30 a.m. to 9 p.m. (with a half-hour lunch) yesterday. My apologies for the typing errors in the "Augusta Archives" post. My work schedule gets even worse next week...Larry Horn worked on a McJob for one summer? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ PROQUEST'S LOS ANGELES TIMES The ProQuest LOS ANGELES TIMES has now seemingly improved from May 1953 to April 25, 1956. However, upon closer look (from the following examples--a "slang" search, for example), it appears that the rest of 1953, the entire year of 1954, and the entire year of 1955 haven't been done at all. The year 1956 comes up on searches, but you can't read the articles yet. You just get the article titles. Hurry up, ProQuest. Christmas is coming. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SNOW PEA Perhaps there's a pea here. WHAT SHALL I COOK? MARIAN MANNERS. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 20, 1956. p. B4 (1 page) LESSON FEATURES FOREIGN DISHES Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 15, 1956. p. D12 (1 page) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SANTA MARIA BARBECUE This came up. Still no pinquito beans. Old Mission Santa Ines to Stage Annual Fiesta Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 4, 1956. p. A7 (1 page) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MURPHY'S LAW From a search for "Murphy's law," but it's probably wrong. THE BOOK REPORT ROBERT R KIRSCH. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 23, 1956. p. A5 (1 page) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ GRANOLA This came up on a "granola" search. Granola causes wind? KILLER TORNADOES WHIP WIDE SOUTHWEST AREA; Eight Known Dead, 80 Hurt, Several Missing in 2 States Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 3, 1956. p. 1 (2 pages) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HAPPY HOUR + COCKTAIL I searched for both terms together. Merry Merechant Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 18, 1956. p. O10 (1 page) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SCREWDRIVER I searched for "screwdriver," "vodka," and "orange juice." Display Ad 34 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 6, 1956. p. A3 (1 page) Display Ad 28 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 14, 1956. p. A3 (1 page) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MARGARITA + COCKTAIL Pasadena Setting for Gay Fetes; Ray Kautzes Host Cocktail Event at Their Residence JOAN BURNHAM. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 6, 1956. p. B1 (1 page) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ TV DINNER Display Ad 10 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 5, 1956. p. 11 (1 page) Comic 1 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 1, 1956. p. A5 (1 page) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ NO SWEAT U.S. Air Lift Starts Trips into Kimpo; Giant Transports Pour Supplies Into Field at Front Lines Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 20, 1950. p. 2 (1 page): Three hours and six minutes later, its radio operator, Master Sgt. Edwin C. Perry, Tacoma, Wash., signaled "on ground at 1426 (2:26 p.m.) No sweat (no serious trouble encountered)." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SLANG Some articles in a search for "slang." OPINIONS OF OTHER NEWSPAPERS; DIG THOSE NEW WORDS Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 27, 1956. p. A4 (1 page) TIJUANA CENTER OF HUGE DRUG TRAFFIC; Many Stores There Do Roaring Business in Goof Balls and Reap Fantastic Profits ART WILCOX. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 22, 1956. p. 3 (1 page) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 21 01:54:28 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:54:28 -0500 Subject: Breakfast Ball, Gozer, Mulligan (golf shot) (1992) Message-ID: http://sortagolf.manilasites.com/mulligan History of the Mulligan…Sorta Mulligans are an undeniable part of the rich heritage of golf despite what the USGA might say.� So much so that many golfers have come up with their own alternative "pet" names for a Mulligan (ex. Gozer, Breakfast Ball, etc.). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The HDAS does not have "gozer" or "breakfast ball." A "breakfast ball" is a mulligan on the first tee--although see the 1992 citation below. I thought I'd search for these and give "mulligan" another try, using the Augusta Archives. The Augusta National golf course was built in the early 1930s. No luck, though. "GOLF" and "BREAKFAST BALL"--279 Google hits "GOLF" and "GOZER" and "MULLIGAN"--15 Google hits (really, just the article above) (PROQUEST) Sports Illustrated.� New York:� Jun 15, 1992.� Vol.� 76,� Iss.� 23;� � pg.� 44,� 5� pgs What with that wild fluttering of butterflies in your stomach, you will absolutely, positively shank your first shot of the day. This is why it is essential to hire Dawg as your caddie. The 45-year-old Dawg (so named for constantly juggling at least three girlfriends) does not allow mulligans off the number 1 tee. However, he does allow "breakfast balls." Dawg is not totally without civility. Unfortunately, tournament players bring their own caddies and therefore do not know the pleasures of breakfast balls. (PROQUEST) Weekend All Things Considered.� Washington, D.C.:� Nov 16, 1996.� � pg.� 1 SIMON: Now is that because the president is taking a few mulligans, as they're called? LANDEAU: Mulligan being extra shots. He is known to do that. On the first tee it's considered the American thing to do. Sometimes we call it a breakfast ball. But Clinton is alleged to take a few more than that. (JSTOR) Among the New Words Wayne Glowka; Brenda K. Lester American Speech, Vol. 72, No. 3. (Autumn, 1997), pp. 289-313. (Pg. 295 has the same 1996 NPR "breakfast ball" citation about President Clinton--ed.) From douglas at NB.NET Sun Dec 21 02:46:48 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 21:46:48 -0500 Subject: Jazz [adjective] (1919) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jazz" as an adjective meaning "mottled" appears in MW3. ---------- "The Simcoe Reformer" [Simcoe, Ontario], 20 Nov. 1919, p. 9, col. 1: "Brother to Icarus" by Lieut. Warren H. Miller, U.S.N. (attrib. "The Red Book"): col. 2: [on a USN destroyer] <> ---------- I suppose this adjective "jazz" is likely derived from the musical noun ... carrying the sense "unsystematic" or "disorderly" ... appropriate for camouflage. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 21 03:50:39 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 22:50:39 -0500 Subject: Pimiento Cheese (1910); Sick kitten to a hot brick (1849) Message-ID: PIMIENTO CHEESE Earlier this year, I received an order for "pimiento cheese." It was said that "pimiento cheese sandwiches" were very popular at the Augusta National. 29 July 1910, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 8, col. 3 (Ad for J. L. Janes & Co. on Broad Street--ed): PIMIENTO CHEESE, you know how fine it is. This is good. 2 for...25c 24 November 1931, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. col. 1 (Ad for Butch Easterling's Place on Sand Bar Ferry Road--ed.): Toasted Pimento Cheese Sandwiches, Large Size...10c 13 December 1962, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, third section, pg. 1C, col. 1 photo caption: PIMIENTO CHEESE SANDWICHES WITH CRABMEAT CHUNKS FOR THE HOLIDAYS 4 September 1969, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE-HERALD, pg. 2 (third section?), col. 1: _Classic recipe_ _gets new treat_ By CECILY BROWNSTONE _Porch Snack_ A classic vanilla fudge recipe is treated to almonds. Pimiento Cheese Sandwiches Fudge Thinsies Iced Tea ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SICK KITTEN TO A HOT BRICK LIGHT ON DARK PLACES AT PANAMA by An Isthmian Stenographer (Mary A. Chatfield--ed.) New York: Broadway Publishing Co. 1908 Pg. 40: Another Texan I met boarded where I did in New Haven, which was favored by his presence, as he attended the Yale Law School. He had wild, chrysanthemum hair and prominent ears. I have not the remotest idea what his name was, for every one called him Texas. He sat gazing at me one day at dinner, finally breaking out with, "Miss Chatfield, did you ever love a man right hard?" "Did you ever feel like a sick kitten hugging up tew a hot brick?" he inquired, amid shouts of laughter from the other folks at the table. This was only one of his many wonderful remarks. A sick kitten hugging up to a hot brick? WHAT DO THEY TEACH AT YALE LAW SCHOOL? Was this how Hillary met Bill? An OED "sick kitten" search wasn't the cat's meow. (GOOGLE) John Palmer, San Francisco Medicine, 1849 ... round the lashes," -- it is usual to describe his condition by a feline figure; he is said to "cuddle up to her like a sick kitten to a hot brick." But the ... search.ancestry.com/db-calbk144/P113.aspx - Similar pages Definitions ... conservative as: "a businessman's candidate, hovering around the status quo like a sick kitten around a hot brick.". Modern conservatives ... www.theinternetparty.org/etc/ index.php?section_type=etc&cat_name=Definitions - 37k - Cached - Similar pages type_Document_Title_here ... I do not know what he want(ed) to ask her that for she has told him time and again that she loves him better than a "sick kitten loves a hot brick." I have ... www.hal-pc.org/~jdm/letters/18820326ltr.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages The Mediadrome - History - Quotes of the Day: Conservatism ... M. "...a businessman's candidate, hovering around the status quo like a sick kitten around a hot brick.". William Allen White 1916. M. ... www.themediadrome.com/content/articles/ words_articles/Quotes/conservatism.htm - 21k - Cached - Similar pages all things William ... Bill Weaver. . . . a businessman's candidate, hovering around the status quo like a sick kitten around a hot brick. ~ William Allen ... www.allthingswilliam.com/politics.html - 33k - Cached - Similar pages (WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION) Byrn, M. Lafayette (1826-1903): The Life and Adventures of an Arkansaw Doctor (1851) 1 match in 1 of 178 pages CHAPTER VI. until a report was out that she had a new suitor, and people said that she leaned up to him like a sick kitten to a hot rock, as though she had never cared anything for me. / It looked hard to a Fifteen minutes around New York Foster, George G., New York : DeWitt & Davenport, 1854. Pg. 106: Go to any theatre in New York, and you will find every other women in the house, minus the old and ugly, with the arm of the next gentleman round her neck, and frequently the fingers tucked under her off shoulder, while the inconscious creature, looking as if butter wouldn't melt in her mouth, leans up against the many breast, "like a sick kitten to a hot brick." (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE) ROUND-THE-WORLD JOE.; IV. KEEPING IT UP. George Eager. Our Young Folks. An Illustrated Magazine for Boys and Girls (1865-1873). Boston: May 1867. Vol. 3, Iss. 5; p. 257 (9 pages) (Somewhere here--ed.) True to 'Mandy Collins; Jim's Loyalty. Puck Current Literature (1888-1912). New York: May 1894. Vol. Volume XV, Iss. Number 5; p. 437 (1 page): "I did, Colonel--a fine gal down the crick. I sot right up to her, like a sick kitten to a hot brick, for a whole week, when one day 'long came 'Mandy, and I axed her ag'in." From mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Sun Dec 21 04:58:18 2003 From: mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 23:58:18 -0500 Subject: shim (software) Message-ID: Heard in conversation tonight: "... a shim between the DVD driver and the software for reading the disk." When asked, the speaker defined this use of "shim" as "a piece of software that sits between two pieces of software that normally communicate directly with each other." It usually operates transparently, so that neither of the two other pieces of software* "knows" that it's there, but "thinks" it's communicating with the other one normally. I hadn't heard this usage before. A Google search finds around 28k hits of "shim" and "software" in the same text, of which the first relevant one, is #10, http://archnet.caup.washington.edu/00Archnet%20Home/3.Software/0.default.html (University of Washington, Department of Architecture: ARCHNET Student Download Software): What is the "Keyserver Client"? The management mechanism that keeps track of the number of licenses of each title that are in use is a "software metering" system. Most of our software is metered by a system called "KeyServer". This "shim" software sits between the application and the network, checking licenses in and out as you work. "Keyserver Client" is the name of the application (under Windows, on a Mac it is an extension) that provides the necessary services. Therefore, you must install the Keyserver Client first, prior to installing or running any of the other applications. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Sun Dec 21 05:27:45 2003 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight, MLIS) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 21:27:45 -0800 Subject: shim (software) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From "The Jargon File" [http://www.jargon.8hz.com/html/index.html] ...The 4.0.0 version was published in September 1996 as the third edition of The New Hacker's Dictionary from MIT Press (ISBN 0-262-68092-0). shim: n. 1. A small piece of data inserted in order to achieve a desired memory alignment or other addressing property. For example, the PDP-11 Unix linker, in split I&D (instructions and data) mode, inserts a two-byte shim at location 0 in data space so that no data object will have an address of 0 (and be confused with the C null pointer). See also loose bytes. 2. A type of small transparent image inserted into HTML documents by certain WYSIWYG HTML editors, used to set the spacing of elements meant to have a fixed positioning within a TABLE or DIVision. Hackers who work on the HTML code of such pages afterwards invariably curse these for their crocky dependence on the particular spacing of original image file, the editor that generated them, and the version of the browser used to view them. Worse, they are a poorly designed kludge which the advent of Cascading Style Sheets makes wholly unnecessary; Any fool can plainly see that use of borders, layers and positioned elements is the Right Thing (or would be if adequate support for CSS were more common). ... "The first PDP-11s (the 11/15 and 11/20) shipped in 1970 from DEC;..." For what it's worth: magic cookie: n. [Unix; common] ... 2. An in-band code for changing graphic rendition (e.g., inverse video or underlining) or performing other control functions (see also cookie). Some older terminals would leave a blank on the screen corresponding to mode-change magic cookies; this was also called a glitch (or occasionally a turd; compare mouse droppings). See also cookie. "older terminals" being those dumb tubes connected to mini- and main-frame computers, vintage late sixties, early seventies -- predating the common PC web browser by at least twenty years. Cheers, -jk At 08:58 PM 12/20/03, you wrote: >Heard in conversation tonight: > >"... a shim between the DVD driver and the software for reading the >disk." > >When asked, the speaker defined this use of "shim" as "a piece of >software that sits between two pieces of software that normally >communicate directly with each other." It usually operates >transparently, so that neither of the two other pieces of software* >"knows" that it's there, but "thinks" it's communicating with the other >one normally. > >I hadn't heard this usage before. A Google search finds around 28k hits >of >"shim" and "software" in the same text, of which the first relevant one, >is #10, >http://archnet.caup.washington.edu/00Archnet%20Home/3.Software/0.default.html >(University of Washington, Department of Architecture: ARCHNET Student >Download Software): > > >What is the "Keyserver Client"? > >The management mechanism that keeps track of the number of licenses of >each title that are in use is a "software metering" system. Most of our >software is metered by a system called "KeyServer". This "shim" software >sits between the application and the network, checking licenses in and >out as you work. "Keyserver Client" is the name of the application >(under Windows, on a Mac it is an extension) that provides the necessary >services. Therefore, you must install the Keyserver Client first, prior >to installing or running any of the other applications. > >-- Mark A. Mandel > Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 21 06:23:30 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 01:23:30 EST Subject: "Throws like a girl" (1942) Message-ID: More sports expressions against the full text SPORTING NEWS. Paper of Record (www.paperofrecord.com) has just added the years 1990-2002, so now the entire run of SPORTING NEWS from 1886-2002 is searchable. You can buy a day pass for many of these newspaper databases for just $4.95. I had posted 1952 for "throw like a girl" (see ADS-L archives). 22 October 1942, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 3, col. 3: "I look like a splinter compared to the rest of my family, " said Tommy (Hughes--ed.). "Even my 17-year-old brother, Jack, weighs 190 (Col. 4--ed.) pounds. But he'll never be a ball player. He throws like a girl." (PROQUEST) Putting the Fast Ones Over; Putting the Fast Ones Over By REX LARDNER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 8, 1966. p. CBBR4 (2 pages) (First Page--ed.) When Harmon Killebrew first came to the Washington Senators, we are told by Hal Butler, manager Bucky Harris watched him play shortstop. "'Good grief,' he exclaimed. 'The kid throws like a girl!'" Lombardi Happy To End Road Tour; Cards Early One-Point Favorites 'Team Play' Gladdens Lombardi By Dave BradyWashington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Oct 7, 1969. p. D1 (2 pages): (Pg. D3--ed.) Told that spectators in the San Francisco press box said Jurgensen "throws like a girl" when he wobbled a couple of completions and appeared to lack snap in his throws as he passed off-balance, Lombardi said, "I wish I had a lot of 'girls' like him. His arm is fine." From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 21 15:40:57 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:40:57 -0500 Subject: Fwd: AWADmail Issue 105 Message-ID: If anyone who's done the spade-work on _spider hole_ wants to set the readership of A Word A Day right (the link below is an Aussie reiteration of the patently false claim that it began in the Vietnam War), you can mail Mr. Garg below. He's usually pretty generous about circulating updates and corrections of his previous columns. larry --- begin forwarded text From: Anu Garg (anu at wordsmith.org) Subject: Interesting stories from the net What's a spider hole?: http://smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/15/1071336894572.html --- end forwarded text From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Dec 21 16:55:36 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:55:36 -0600 Subject: Hashhouse lingo queries: "milk crust," "on the cantaloupe," "Make it three all 'round." Message-ID: >At 10:02 PM -0500 11/29/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >WORTH HUMORING. >Puck (1877-1918). New York: Aug 5, 1908. Vol. 64, Iss. 1640; p. 0_5 (1 page): >(Dinner table illustration--ed.) > _WORTH HUMORING._ > MR. SUBBERTON (_yelling to kitchen_).--Sawdust and milk crust! >Adam and Eve on a raft and wreck 'em! On the cantaloupe! Draw one! >Make it three all 'round! > MR. TOWNLEY.--Great,--e-e-r, how--pardon me, old chap, but what's >it all about? MR. SUBBERTON.--'Sh! We've got a former restaurant cook--_a peach!_--and we have to order that way to keep her on the job! **** The above _Puck_ item doesn't clarify the meanings of the hash-house lingo it presents. "Adam and Even on a raft and wreck 'em" is poached eggs on toast with the yolks broken. "Sawdust" is cornmeal. "Draw one" is a cup of coffee. But what is "milk crust," "Make it three all 'round," and "On the cantaloupe"? Gerald Cohen From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Sun Dec 21 17:21:16 2003 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:21:16 -0800 Subject: The New Scientist's competition for brave new scientific words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FOR THIS year's Feedback competition, readers were invited to invent a new scientific word that we need and define it in an appropriately pompous way. Monotonologue and Terarist are particularly inspired http://www.newscientist.com/opinion/opfeedback.jsp?id=ns242699#21 Vida. vidamorkunas at telus.net From douglas at NB.NET Sun Dec 21 19:22:22 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:22:22 -0500 Subject: Hashhouse lingo queries: "milk crust," "on the cantaloupe," "Make it three all 'round." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>WORTH HUMORING. >>Puck (1877-1918). New York: Aug 5, 1908. Vol. 64, Iss. 1640; p. 0_5 (1 page): >>(Dinner table illustration--ed.) >> _WORTH HUMORING._ >> MR. SUBBERTON (_yelling to kitchen_).--Sawdust and milk crust! >>Adam and Eve on a raft and wreck 'em! On the cantaloupe! Draw one! >>Make it three all 'round! >> MR. TOWNLEY.--Great,--e-e-r, how--pardon me, old chap, but what's >>it all about? > MR. SUBBERTON.--'Sh! We've got a former restaurant cook--_a >peach!_--and we have to order that way to keep her on the job! > >**** > > The above _Puck_ item doesn't clarify the meanings of the >hash-house lingo it presents. >"Adam and Even on a raft and wreck 'em" is poached eggs on toast with >the yolks broken. "Sawdust" is cornmeal. "Draw one" is a cup of >coffee. > > But what is "milk crust," "Make it three all 'round," and "On the >cantaloupe"? "Sawdust" was used in the early 20th century to refer to cold breakfast cereal (inter alia). I don't recognize this "milk crust" but I believe "milk crust" was once used routinely to refer to "crusty" (in the post-vesicular phase I suppose) facial eczema in an infant. So my speculations would be (1) "milk crust" = "milk" (on the cereal) + nonsense "crust" to make a double-entendre and a rhyme, (2) "milk crust" = something crusty, maybe milk plus brown sugar (on the cereal). "[Make it] three all 'round" I think means "three for each person" and it might refer to pancakes or something like that. "On the cantaloupe" ... maybe it's just cantaloupe? -- Doug Wilson From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 21 22:37:51 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:37:51 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Sawed Off Shotgun" (1890) Message-ID: OED cites from 1898. M-W gets a pass, as the "sawed off" existed earlier. Using Ancestry.com, I found two different, but equally interesting articles on the subject. The 'Western US' stagecoach weapon is cited in the Stevens Point(WI) Journal from September 9, 1891. Page ?, column 3: Note--the article, which is rather long, would imply that the use of a barrel-shortened gun by the "messenger" on a stagecoach pre-dated this article by more than a bit. <> and <> The above article was reprinted from the San Francisco Examiner. An earlier cite, 1890, was from the Waukesha(WI) Freeman, October 20, 1890. Page 1?, column 4-5. Another long article about the assassination of the superintendent of police in New Orleans by the Mafia. <> Boy, does that sound like something out of a modern movie! Sam Clements From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 21 23:36:03 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:36:03 EST Subject: Brunswick Stew (1859) Message-ID: _Brunswick Stew_ You can't get much more American than this--a big old stew pot with assorted meats, corn, tomatoes, beans, and hot sauce. But you also can't get too specific, because Brunswick stew means different things to different people. Two places called Brunswick in the United States claim the dish as their own: Brunswick County, Virginia, and Brunswick, Georgia (historians usually side with the Virginians, who apparently started making a stew like this in the early 1800s). ---David Rosengarten, IT'S ALL AMERICAN FOOD (2003), pg. 311. It's Virginia. (Squirrel is for lovers?) DARE has "chiefly Sth, esp VA, NC, GA." The first citation is 1856 and the next is 1899. DARE claims "From Brunswick Co., VA." If "Brunswick stew" originated in Georgia, we should see something about that in the AUGUSTA CHRONICLE. There are many hits for an ad in February-March 1899; the first hit before that is 1859. 16 November 1859, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 2, col. 2: Lives there the man not a Virginian who comprehends the joys of Brunswick stews, the bliss of roas'n ears, and the rapture of pot liquor? Did any boy but a Virginia boy ever catch catfish out of a branch with a pin-hook after a heavy shower? (...) Did you ever eat any snaps cooked by an old Virginia nigger cook? 4 February 1899, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 4, col. 5: GENUINE GEORGIA _BRUNSWICK STEW_ Made of selected Chicken, Beef, Corn and Tomatoes. A complete meal in itself. A perfect Lunch for Clubs. (...) COLD SPRING PACKING Co., Atlanta, Ga. (WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION) Bagby, George William (1828-1883): What I Did With My Fifty Millions (1874) 1 match in 1 of 131 pages Pg. 123: immortality—all present longings, I mean. We had some pot-liquor with dumplings, a cotopaxic Brunswick stew, vegetables of various degrees, 'coon cutlets, some bread—also forks—some (MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN) Title: Good Eatings Publication Info.: Southern literary messenger; devoted to every department of literature and the fine arts. / Volume 37, Issue 5, May 1863, pp.304-311 Collection: Making of America Journal Articles Search results: 3 matches in full text Pg. 308: Beling tired of fried chicken, and other every day Virginian dishes, the decree went forth for a Brunswick stew. That very evening, the squirrels were fetched from the tops of the tall oaks in the forest hard by, the garden furnished the vegetables, and the next day it was served copiously, superbly, royally, under a grand old walnut tree whose mighty Briaerean arms shaded half the yard. There was no other dish but the Brunswick stew, and that was enough; for it contained all the meats and juices of the forest and garden magnificently conglomerated and sublimed by the potent essence of fiery Cayenne, pod upon pod, lavishly thrown in. (...) I used to think that this was one of the Arabian Nights Entertainments, but since that Brunswick stew under the walnut tree at Gannaway's, I am prepared to believe anything in the melon line;... Author: Harland, Marion, 1830-1922. Title: Common sense in the household; a manual of practical housewifery. Publication date: 1872. Collection: Making of America Books Search results: 3 matches in full text Pg. 172: SQUIRRELS. The large gray squirrel is seldom eaten at the North, but in great respect in Virginia and other Southern States. It is generally barbecued, precisely as are rabbits; broiled, fricasseed, or--most popular of all--made into a Brunswick stew. This is named from Brunswick County, Virginia, and is a famous dish--or was--at the political and social pic-nics known as barbecues. I am happy to be able to give a receipt for this stew that is genuine and explicit, and for which I am indebted to a Virginia housekeeper. Pg. 173 Pg. 544 A search of George Washington's writings didn't turn up "Brunswick stew." But it's very clear that "Brunswick stew" comes from Virginia. A 2003 book on American food should not suggest a Georgia origin. "Virginia style" and "Georgia style" Brunswick stew is another matter entirely. The Google numbers: BRUNSWICK STEW--11,800 Google hits BRUNSWICK STEW + VIRGINIA--2,030 Google hits; 347 Google Groups hits BRUNSWICK STEW + GEORGIA--1,930 Google hits; 425 Google Groups hits (GOOGLE GROUPS) From: John Nall (nall at sun8.scri.fsu.edu) Subject: Recipe for Georgia Brunswick Stew This is the only article in this thread Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking Date: 1992-07-07 01:13:44 PST I had posted a query to the net as to whether or not anyonemight have a recipe for Brunswick Stew that they would careto share with me.I received the following reply from KTRUETT at Ruby.VCU.EDU, who also advised that "you are never alone when a Bene Gesseritis nearby". Shades of Dune!! Anyway, she asked if I would post it, since she is unable to post to the net although shecan read with no problem. So here it is, with full credit to her. BTW, she also advised that Georgia Style Brunswick Stewis distinct from Virginia Style Brunswick Stew , which apparentlyhas larger chunks of meat and probably other differences. So if any Cavaliers are around with a recipe for VBS sure wouldlove to see how the two styles compare :-) John From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Dec 22 00:14:48 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:14:48 -0500 Subject: Fed up Message-ID: I have always said "fed up with" sthg or other. One of my daughters, who spent one year of her early adolescence in an English boarding school, says "fed up of," which I always think is simply a mistake. Today, however, I ran across "fed up of" in an English novel and am wondering if this is ordinary English usage. Is it normal in any North American region? A. Murie From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Dec 22 00:19:35 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:19:35 -0600 Subject: Fed up Message-ID: This looks like a blend: "fed up with" and "sick of" Gerald Cohen -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of sagehen Sent: Sun 12/21/2003 6:14 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Fed up I have always said "fed up with" sthg or other. One of my daughters, who spent one year of her early adolescence in an English boarding school, says "fed up of," which I always think is simply a mistake. Today, however, I ran across "fed up of" in an English novel and am wondering if this is ordinary English usage. Is it normal in any North American region? A. Murie From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Dec 22 00:22:57 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:22:57 -0500 Subject: Brunswick Stew (1859) Message-ID: Rosengarten, whatever his heritage, doesn't know squat. I come from Virginia and I make a Brunswick stew using the recipe in the Williamsburg cookbook. It's the original thing. Rosengarten mentions "hot sauce." WHAT hot sauce? Where does that come from? Barry's excellent find, from the 1859 Augusta paper mentions "snaps." If you don't hail from southern Virginia, then you wouldn't know that they are "green beans" which one had to 'string'and 'snap' before cooking. I did that many a day in the 1950's. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 6:36 PM Subject: Brunswick Stew (1859) _Brunswick Stew_ You can't get much more American than this--a big old stew pot with assorted meats, corn, tomatoes, beans, and hot sauce. But you also can't get too specific, because Brunswick stew means different things to different people. Two places called Brunswick in the United States claim the dish as their own: Brunswick County, Virginia, and Brunswick, Georgia (historians usually side with the Virginians, who apparently started making a stew like this in the early 1800s). ---David Rosengarten, IT'S ALL AMERICAN FOOD (2003), pg. 311. It's Virginia. (Squirrel is for lovers?) DARE has "chiefly Sth, esp VA, NC, GA." The first citation is 1856 and the next is 1899. DARE claims "From Brunswick Co., VA." If "Brunswick stew" originated in Georgia, we should see something about that in the AUGUSTA CHRONICLE. There are many hits for an ad in February-March 1899; the first hit before that is 1859. 16 November 1859, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 2, col. 2: Lives there the man not a Virginian who comprehends the joys of Brunswick stews, the bliss of roas'n ears, and the rapture of pot liquor? Did any boy but a Virginia boy ever catch catfish out of a branch with a pin-hook after a heavy shower? (...) Did you ever eat any snaps cooked by an old Virginia nigger cook? 4 February 1899, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 4, col. 5: GENUINE GEORGIA _BRUNSWICK STEW_ Made of selected Chicken, Beef, Corn and Tomatoes. A complete meal in itself. A perfect Lunch for Clubs. (...) COLD SPRING PACKING Co., Atlanta, Ga. (WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION) Bagby, George William (1828-1883): What I Did With My Fifty Millions (1874) 1 match in 1 of 131 pages Pg. 123: immortality—all present longings, I mean. We had some pot-liquor with dumplings, a cotopaxic Brunswick stew, vegetables of various degrees, 'coon cutlets, some bread—also forks—some (MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN) Title: Good Eatings Publication Info.: Southern literary messenger; devoted to every department of literature and the fine arts. / Volume 37, Issue 5, May 1863, pp.304-311 Collection: Making of America Journal Articles Search results: 3 matches in full text Pg. 308: Beling tired of fried chicken, and other every day Virginian dishes, the decree went forth for a Brunswick stew. That very evening, the squirrels were fetched from the tops of the tall oaks in the forest hard by, the garden furnished the vegetables, and the next day it was served copiously, superbly, royally, under a grand old walnut tree whose mighty Briaerean arms shaded half the yard. There was no other dish but the Brunswick stew, and that was enough; for it contained all the meats and juices of the forest and garden magnificently conglomerated and sublimed by the potent essence of fiery Cayenne, pod upon pod, lavishly thrown in. (...) I used to think that this was one of the Arabian Nights Entertainments, but since that Brunswick stew under the walnut tree at Gannaway's, I am prepared to believe anything in the melon line;... Author: Harland, Marion, 1830-1922. Title: Common sense in the household; a manual of practical housewifery. Publication date: 1872. Collection: Making of America Books Search results: 3 matches in full text Pg. 172: SQUIRRELS. The large gray squirrel is seldom eaten at the North, but in great respect in Virginia and other Southern States. It is generally barbecued, precisely as are rabbits; broiled, fricasseed, or--most popular of all--made into a Brunswick stew. This is named from Brunswick County, Virginia, and is a famous dish--or was--at the political and social pic-nics known as barbecues. I am happy to be able to give a receipt for this stew that is genuine and explicit, and for which I am indebted to a Virginia housekeeper. Pg. 173 Pg. 544 A search of George Washington's writings didn't turn up "Brunswick stew." But it's very clear that "Brunswick stew" comes from Virginia. A 2003 book on American food should not suggest a Georgia origin. "Virginia style" and "Georgia style" Brunswick stew is another matter entirely. The Google numbers: BRUNSWICK STEW--11,800 Google hits BRUNSWICK STEW + VIRGINIA--2,030 Google hits; 347 Google Groups hits BRUNSWICK STEW + GEORGIA--1,930 Google hits; 425 Google Groups hits (GOOGLE GROUPS) From: John Nall (nall at sun8.scri.fsu.edu) Subject: Recipe for Georgia Brunswick Stew This is the only article in this thread Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking Date: 1992-07-07 01:13:44 PST I had posted a query to the net as to whether or not anyonemight have a recipe for Brunswick Stew that they would careto share with me.I received the following reply from KTRUETT at Ruby.VCU.EDU, who also advised that "you are never alone when a Bene Gesseritis nearby". Shades of Dune!! Anyway, she asked if I would post it, since she is unable to post to the net although shecan read with no problem. So here it is, with full credit to her. BTW, she also advised that Georgia Style Brunswick Stewis distinct from Virginia Style Brunswick Stew , which apparentlyhas larger chunks of meat and probably other differences. So if any Cavaliers are around with a recipe for VBS sure wouldlove to see how the two styles compare :-) John From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Dec 22 00:34:51 2003 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:34:51 -0500 Subject: WOTY Nomination for Most Unnecessary Message-ID: My nomination for the most unnecessary word of the year: "killographic." http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2003-12-09-killing-word_x.htm A public interest group had a holiday warning and a new word Monday for parents of video game users: Beware of "killographic," defined as the "graphic depiction of brutal violence." The National Institute on Media and the Family, an independent, nonprofit group, said "killographic" scenes are featured in a number of video games within reach of children. [...] "If pornographic is the 'graphic depiction of sex,' then killographic should enter our vocabulary to describe the 'graphic depiction of brutal violence,"' David Walsh, the institute's president, told a Capitol Hill news conference. -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Dec 22 02:11:09 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:11:09 -0500 Subject: Antedating of 'parking brake' (automotive) (1920) Message-ID: M-W has 1930. OED has 1944. Using Ancestry.com, from the Washington Post, March 30, 1924. Page 8, col. 3; <> An article about the "Flint Forty" auto. "Emergency brake" has an application in train terminology and so goes back to the 19th Century. I found an antedate of 1891 for that train use to supplement the m-w 1900 cite. SC From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Mon Dec 22 05:43:37 2003 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight, MLIS) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:43:37 -0800 Subject: Fed up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Times, Tuesday, Jan 15, 1957; pg. 8; Issue 53739; col D 'Bored' With Sunday School Inquiry Into Loss Of Scholars ... the report says that the answers given by 1,000 children to the question: "Why did you leave Sunday school?" were, in most cases, that they had lost interest. Many stated tersely that Sunday school bored them. "I got fed up of the same things over and over again." "I got tired of it after all those years" (age 12). "Bored." "I did not learn anything." ... The Times, Saturday, Jul 09, 1960; pg. 4; Issue 54819; col D Court Hears Voice Of Dying Man Tape Recording Played At Inquest FROM OUR CORRESPONDENT. ... The message left by the dead man on the tape recorder to his friend said: "Dear Stephan, I am talking to you. Thank youvery much for what you have done for me. I am fed up of all this, other people helping me along. ... The Times, Wednesday, Jul 25, 1962; pg. 14; Issue 55452; col B House Of Commons Limited advertising on television MR. CHAPMAN (Birmingham, Northfield, Lab.) ... To limit advertising in the way suggested might lead to a proliferation of rather short programmes. The public has got rather fed up of seeing stupendous profits made out of this intrusion into viewing time. ... And so on. An earlier, (The Times, Feb 12, 1931), op-ed piece on the literal vs. metaphorical use of "fed up" includes: "According to the report, an escaped convict recaptured on Tuesday, said to the police: "I am hungry and fed up"; and probably neither he nor the policemen were just then aware that they had witnessed a small but definite event in the history of the English language. Hungry and fed up -- it is impossible to be both at once,..." Further along, "...because 'fed up' has long been losing any literal meaning it may once have had. Many a soldier wrote home from the front to say that he was fed up with the War, but that the food was very good." -jk At 04:14 PM 12/21/03, you wrote: >I have always said "fed up with" sthg or other. One of my daughters, who >spent one year of her early adolescence in an English boarding school, says >"fed up of," which I always think is simply a mistake. Today, however, I >ran across "fed up of" in an English novel and am wondering if this is >ordinary English usage. Is it normal in any North American region? >A. Murie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 22 09:12:30 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 04:12:30 EST Subject: Red Rice; Georgia Chicken; Five Fingered Salute; Monkeys & Shakespeare Message-ID: Some chicken and rice, with other fixings. The AUGUSTA CHRONICLE didn't have an early "fixings." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- RED RICE "Red rice" is not in the latest DARE. It certainly is an American regional dish. OED has a 1929 "Spanish rice" citation from D. H. Lawrence, and that's it for that. OED has only one 1883 "red rice" citation, about Singapore. "Red rice" contains "tomato," so maybe the tomato man (Andrew Smith) knows something...Augusta Archives gave me a "Reduced Prices" as a "red rice(s)" hit. "Mild-red Rice" was another "hit." No early citation was found. John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999), pg. 267: _red rice._ Also, "Spanish rice." A southern seasoned rice dish made with tomato to give it color. It is often served with shrimp. David Rosengarten's IT'S ALL AMERICAN FOOD (2003), pg. 298: _Red Rice_ This side dish from Charleston and Savannah is not as well known as Louisiana's Dirty Rice. But a dish remarkably similar to Red Rice--namely, the completely inaccurately named Spanish Rice--used to be a home and cafeteria staple all over the country. I love the great, dense, tomatoey mouthful of tender rice that this Red Rice recipe yields. (AUGUSTA ARCHIVES) 11 November 1976, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 2, Food Section, col. 1: Where else but in Charleston can you get "Arthur Washington's Red Rice," "baked Crabmeat Remick" or "Flounder a la Gherardi." A gourmet's guide to the most prestigious restaurants in that city by the sea is simply covered in a delightful cookbook entitled "Doin' the Charleston," by Molly Heady Sillers. (Col. 2--ed.) ARTHUR WASHINGTON'S CHARLESTON RED RICE (From Adger's Wharf) 4 slices bacon, cut in squares 1 small onion, chopped 1 bell pepper, chopped 1 can tomato paste salt and pepper to taste 4 cups cooked rice (Col. 3--ed.) Fry the bacon in a large skillet until crisp. Remove bacon and fry onion and bell pepper in grease until tender. Add tomato paste and cooked rice. Season to taste and add the bacon just before serving. Serves 6 to 8. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GEORGIA CHICKEN "Georgia Chicken" is a nice entry to be checked against Augusta Archives. Unfortunately, I didn't find much of anything. See Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG. Under "Adirondack steak," also mentioned are "Georgia chicken," "Arkansas chicken," "Chicago chicken," "Cincinnati chicken," "Irish chicken," "Boston woodcock," and more. DARE has 1971 for "Georgia chicken." 7 July 1957, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 9, col. 7: The group will be served a famous Georgia chicken barbecue supper with the Georgia unit in charge. (It's not clear what "Georgia chicken" means here, but it's "famous"--ed.) 24 December 1961, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 2, col. 2: Georgia chicken, pork and beef with dairy products will be served by College of Agriculture student groups. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FIVE-FINGERED SALUTE I was re-checking "Bronx cheer" in the SPORTING NEWS and ANCESTRY when I found the following "1918" citation for "five-fingered salute and Bronx cheers." The page clearly had "1948." I re-checked "five-fingered salute and Bronx cheers" on www.newspaperarchive.com. This one and only citation comes up--as 1948! The same search engine gives two different dates with two different searches! "Five fingered salute" does not appear in Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG or the HDAS. Both have many other "five finger" citations, however. 4 September 1948, MOUNT PLEASANT NEWS (Mount Pleasant, Iowa), pg.4, col. 3 photo caption: A FIVE-FINGERED saulte and Bronx cheers are directed at Rev. Lowell N. Cantrell, Boston, Mass., clergyman without a church who was arrested and found not guilty of "sauntering and loitering" as he picketed Boston armory, draft registration headquarters. But here he is picketing again. He was arrested a second time soon after picture of this demonstration was made. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MONEYS, TYPEWRITERS & SHAKESPEARE From pre-Roosevelt days? 1920s? 26 July 1951, HAWARDEN INDEPENDENT (Hawarden, Iowa), pg. , col. 1, "It Says Here" by R. T. G.: I remember when I was about a junior at Iowa U. we used to argue whether a whole lot of monkeys, pecking away at a whole lot of typewriters could reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare in a whole lot of years. At that time I was inclined to think that a billion monkeys, a billion typewriters and a billion years of steady pounding would accomplish everything that Shakespeare did in his short life--and maybe even improve a word here and there. The fellow across the hall thought that the odds were higher than that. He argued that it would take at least a trillion each of typewriters, monkeys and years. (This was in the pre-Roosevelt days when even a million looked big.) From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Mon Dec 22 10:17:27 2003 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 05:17:27 -0500 Subject: WOTY nominee - Political Label category Message-ID: I like Iragodox, but I've only seen it here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1111326,00.html And there aren't any hits on google. I suppose this one is a non-starter unless it gains some traction. -- Bruce Dykes Graphnet NOC From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Mon Dec 22 10:22:18 2003 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 05:22:18 -0500 Subject: WOTY nominee - Political Label category In-Reply-To: <1072088246.12164.7.camel@bkd_noc.graphnet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2003-12-22 at 05:17, Bruce Dykes wrote: > I like Iragodox, but I've only seen it here: > http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1111326,00.html > > And there aren't any hits on google. I should point out that I spelled it right when I plugged it into Google: Iraqodox. -- Bruce Dykes Graphnet NOC From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Mon Dec 22 10:26:32 2003 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:26:32 -0000 Subject: Five Fingered Salute Message-ID: > "Five fingered salute" does not appear in Jonathon Green's CASSELL > DICTIONARY OF SLANG or the HDAS. Both have many other "five finger" citations, > however. More relevant, dare I say, are the listed 'salutes': one- and two-finger, jailhouse, one-gun, Italian, Australian, Queensland, Barcoo and Salmon Arm. But I've never encountered the 'five-fingered' version nor can I envisage quite what it means. It sounds like a clenched fist, but while that can be aggressive or celebratory, it has surely never been derogatory (or at least in UK/US). Or a hand, waving in dismissal? If someone could enlighten me, I shall be happy to give it a home. Jonathon Green From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Mon Dec 22 13:13:03 2003 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas M. Paikeday) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:13:03 -0500 Subject: Fed up Message-ID: How does a message like this get garbled? The fault of the system, of my computer, or what? Help appreciated. T. M. P. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" To: Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 7:19 PM Subject: Re: Fed up > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Fed up > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > VGhpcyBsb29rcyBsaWtlIGEgYmxlbmQ6ICJmZWQgdXAgd2l0aCIgYW5kICJzaWNrIG9mIg0KIA0K > R2VyYWxkIENvaGVuDQoNCgktLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLSANCglGcm9tOiBBbWVy > aWNhbiBEaWFsZWN0IFNvY2lldHkgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIHNhZ2VoZW4gDQoJU2VudDogU3VuIDEy > LzIxLzIwMDMgNjoxNCBQTSANCglUbzogQURTLUxATElTVFNFUlYuVUdBLkVEVSANCglTdWJqZWN0 > OiBGZWQgdXANCgkNCgkNCg0KCUkgaGF2ZSBhbHdheXMgc2FpZCAiZmVkIHVwIHdpdGgiICBzdGhn > IG9yIG90aGVyLiAgT25lIG9mIG15IGRhdWdodGVycywgd2hvDQoJc3BlbnQgb25lIHllYXIgb2Yg > aGVyIGVhcmx5IGFkb2xlc2NlbmNlIGluIGFuIEVuZ2xpc2ggYm9hcmRpbmcgc2Nob29sLCBzYXlz > DQoJImZlZCB1cCBvZiwiIHdoaWNoIEkgYWx3YXlzIHRoaW5rIGlzIHNpbXBseSBhIG1pc3Rha2Uu > ICBUb2RheSwgaG93ZXZlciwgSQ0KCXJhbiBhY3Jvc3MgImZlZCB1cCBvZiIgaW4gYW4gRW5nbGlz > aCBub3ZlbCAgYW5kIGFtIHdvbmRlcmluZyBpZiB0aGlzIGlzDQoJb3JkaW5hcnkgRW5nbGlzaCB1 > c2FnZS4gSXMgaXQgbm9ybWFsIGluIGFueSBOb3J0aCBBbWVyaWNhbiByZWdpb24/DQoJQS4gTXVy > aWUNCgkNCg0K From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 22 14:40:07 2003 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 06:40:07 -0800 Subject: Hashhouse lingo queries: "milk crust," "on the cantaloupe," "Make it three all 'round." In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031221141125.0366aa80@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: --- "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: >... I don't recognize this "milk > crust" but I believe > "milk crust" was once used routinely to refer to > "crusty" (in the > post-vesicular phase I suppose) facial eczema in an > infant. So my > speculations would be (1) "milk crust" = "milk" (on > the cereal) + nonsense > "crust" to make a double-entendre and a rhyme, (2) > "milk crust" = something > crusty, maybe milk plus brown sugar (on the cereal)... >> -- Doug Wilson Milk crust = Cream? ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 22 16:23:26 2003 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:23:26 -0800 Subject: Fed up In-Reply-To: <93434D835E4A0040A4FB5343603B45130EEF41@umr-mail6.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 21, 2003, at 4:19 PM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > ["fed up of"] looks like a blend: "fed up with" and "sick of" similar to "bored of" ("bored with" x "tired of"). like gerald cohen, i'm interested in syntactic blends and have been collecting them for years. *but* these particular cases could have a non-blend explanation, namely that instead of selecting some specific and unpredictable object-marking preposition (in these two cases, "with"), the adjective is reverting to the default, all-purpose preposition of english, that is, "of". if so, what speakers who initiate the shift of prepositions are doing is not blending but simplifying the lexicon. in principle, it would be possible to assemble evidence again each of these proposals (blending, defaulting). (a) if we found adjectives that shifted from a marked preposition to "of" for which there was no semantically appropriate analogue with "of" -- admittedly, not an easy thing to find -- then we'd have evidence against the blending proposal. (b) and if we found adjectives that shifted from one marked preposition to a different marked preposition (rather than to the unmarked preposition "of"), then we'd have evidence against the defaulting proposal. still, these arguments would be very weak. i believe that blending and defaulting are *both* genuine mechanisms of change, with relatively clear attested examples. so maybe there's no way to tell, *in any particular case*, which mechanism is at work; in fact, different speakers who show the same shift might have different -- or even mixed -- motivations for doing so. (just to be clear, let me remind everyone, again, that most speakers with an innovative form are not themselves the innovators, but merely the vehicles of the form's spread, so that it makes no sense to ask after the grammatical rationale for their usage. they're just repeating what they hear.) a further complexity comes from the fact that the selection of object-marking prepositions is not a simple matter of regularity ("of") vs. idiosyncrasy (a marked preposition), since classes of adjectives (or verbs or nouns) can select prepositions on the basis of their semantics; there surely are semantically based subregularities in these selections, and these would have to be excluded if an argument of type (b) is to put forward. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 22 17:49:39 2003 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:49:39 -0500 Subject: Fed up In-Reply-To: <200312220500.AAA11757@babel.ling.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I think (whispering the two phrases to myself to see which one sounds more natural!) that 'fed up of' is my normal usage, and I'm from London. I can also say 'fed up with', but it's definitely more stilted. Maybe that's to do with the phonology? It seems easier to say 'fed up of', with consecutive coda-less syllables that do have onsets (/fe.duh.puh.vit/) than to say the version with a coda followed immediately by an onset (/fe.duhp.wi.dhit/) (please excuse the attempts at transcription without an e-mail ssystem that can cope with the IPA). Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Dec 22 17:54:22 2003 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:54:22 -0500 Subject: Fed up Message-ID: I believe we talked at one point about "bored of" as opposed to "bored with." Regards to all in the Holiday season, David Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society writes: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Damien Hall >Subject: Fed up >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I think (whispering the two phrases to myself to see which one sounds more >natural!) that 'fed up of' is my normal usage, and I'm from London. I >can also >say 'fed up with', but it's definitely more stilted. Maybe that's to do >with >the phonology? It seems easier to say 'fed up of', with consecutive >coda-less >syllables that do have onsets (/fe.duh.puh.vit/) than to say the version >with a >coda followed immediately by an onset (/fe.duhp.wi.dhit/) (please excuse >the >attempts at transcription without an e-mail ssystem that can cope with the >IPA). > >Damien Hall >University of Pennsylvania > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Dec 22 19:52:01 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 14:52:01 -0500 Subject: Fed up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Barnhart writes: I believe we talked at one point about "bored of" as opposed to "bored with." ~~~~~~~~~~ "Bored of" does seem to me to be a syntactic blend of "bored by (or with)" and "tired of." I think I only hear this from young children, but perhaps there are regional differences in this. A. Murie A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 22 21:20:40 2003 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:20:40 -0500 Subject: F.T.L. 'failure to launch' (into adult autonomy) Message-ID: (And I only knew it as "faster than light".) >From the NY Times: >>> December 22, 2003 For More People in 20's and 30's, Home Is Where the Parents Are By TAMAR LEWIN [...] Nancy Dye, president of Oberlin College, said that whereas most graduates used to go straight on to graduate school, having chosen at least a preliminary career path, many now stick around, uncertain of their direction. A few years ago, she said, "students came up with a new term, F.T.L. failure to launch." In interviews with dozens of 20-somethings, most say they share a sense that there is no right time to have completed their education, lived on their own or gotten married, that such fixed expectations have no place in their lives. And many see it as beneficial to step slowly and gradually into adult life. [...] Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company <<< -- Mark A. Mandel From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Dec 22 22:47:52 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:47:52 -0500 Subject: Fed up (of) In-Reply-To: <2BE3E0F4-349B-11D8-9DF0-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: I just heard a reporter on NPR say so-and-so are "concerned of" something (in a report on Iraq). Again, it sounds like the use of a default preposition instead of "with" or "about." At 08:23 AM 12/22/2003 -0800, you wrote: >On Dec 21, 2003, at 4:19 PM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > >>["fed up of"] looks like a blend: "fed up with" and "sick of" > >similar to "bored of" ("bored with" x "tired of"). > >like gerald cohen, i'm interested in syntactic blends and have been >collecting them for years. *but* these particular cases could have a >non-blend explanation, namely that instead of selecting some specific >and unpredictable object-marking preposition (in these two cases, >"with"), the adjective is reverting to the default, all-purpose >preposition of english, that is, "of". if so, what speakers who >initiate the shift of prepositions are doing is not blending but >simplifying the lexicon. > >in principle, it would be possible to assemble evidence again each of >these proposals (blending, defaulting). (a) if we found adjectives >that shifted from a marked preposition to "of" for which there was no >semantically appropriate analogue with "of" -- admittedly, not an easy >thing to find -- then we'd have evidence against the blending proposal. > (b) and if we found adjectives that shifted from one marked >preposition to a different marked preposition (rather than to the >unmarked preposition "of"), then we'd have evidence against the >defaulting proposal. > >still, these arguments would be very weak. i believe that blending and >defaulting are *both* genuine mechanisms of change, with relatively >clear attested examples. so maybe there's no way to tell, *in any >particular case*, which mechanism is at work; in fact, different >speakers who show the same shift might have different -- or even mixed >-- motivations for doing so. (just to be clear, let me remind >everyone, again, that most speakers with an innovative form are not >themselves the innovators, but merely the vehicles of the form's >spread, so that it makes no sense to ask after the grammatical >rationale for their usage. they're just repeating what they hear.) > >a further complexity comes from the fact that the selection of >object-marking prepositions is not a simple matter of regularity ("of") >vs. idiosyncrasy (a marked preposition), since classes of adjectives >(or verbs or nouns) can select prepositions on the basis of their >semantics; there surely are semantically based subregularities in these >selections, and these would have to be excluded if an argument of type >(b) is to put forward. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Mon Dec 22 23:44:53 2003 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:44:53 -0500 Subject: deedly-ball Message-ID: <> Per my wife, a costume historian: That sort of fringe was very popular in the 1920s and '30s (especially among cats and small children) for curtains, bedspreads, and almost any article of clothing or household fabric. The original name, from the French, was "pom-pon fringe", but it is generally pronounced and spelt "pom-pom". "Ball fringe" is probably the trade term. Seán Fitzpatrick From douglas at NB.NET Tue Dec 23 01:03:30 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:03:30 -0500 Subject: Hashhouse lingo queries: "milk crust," "on the cantaloupe," "Make it three all 'round." In-Reply-To: <20031222144007.87371.qmail@web9707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Milk crust = Cream? Seems reasonable. Note that the quotation is from a cartoon which was more or less making fun of the hashhouse slang. Therefore some of the items may have been made up for the cartoon and may not have a knowable meaning. -- Doug Wilson From dwhause at JOBE.NET Tue Dec 23 01:50:32 2003 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 19:50:32 -0600 Subject: Five Fingered Salute Message-ID: In conjunction with Bronx cheer, I think the "five fingered salute" is probably open palm toward the person to be disrespected, thumb to nose, fingers spread and waving, tongue out. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathon Green" > "Five fingered salute" does not appear in Jonathon Green's CASSELL > DICTIONARY OF SLANG or the HDAS. Both have many other "five finger" citations, > however. If someone could enlighten me, I shall be happy to give it a home. Jonathon Green From douglas at NB.NET Tue Dec 23 01:53:56 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:53:56 -0500 Subject: Five Fingered Salute In-Reply-To: <002701c3c876$14affd80$0b01a8c0@green> Message-ID: > > "Five fingered salute" does not appear in Jonathon Green's CASSELL > > DICTIONARY OF SLANG or the HDAS. Both have many other "five finger" >citations, > > however. > > >More relevant, dare I say, are the listed 'salutes': one- and two-finger, >jailhouse, one-gun, Italian, Australian, Queensland, Barcoo and Salmon Arm. >But I've never encountered the 'five-fingered' version nor can I envisage >quite what it means. It sounds like a clenched fist, but while that can be >aggressive or celebratory, it has surely never been derogatory (or at least >in UK/US). Or a hand, waving in dismissal? If someone could enlighten me, I >shall be happy to give it a home. > >Jonathon Green I have heard the expression, but I've forgotten what it meant (if I ever knew). By analogy with "one-finger salute", all five fingers would be expected to be extended, I think. Quick Google shows at least two distinct senses: (1) the cocking of a snook; (2) something like a wave of the hand. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 23 02:28:34 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:28:34 EST Subject: Grant Took Richmond (1920) Message-ID: Subj: Grant Took Richmond (1920) Date: 12/22/2003 9:15:52 PM Eastern Standard Time From: Bapopik To: ADS-L at listserv.uga.edu Yesterday's Dallas Cowboys (my team) victory over the New York Giants marked an interesting turnaround for both football teams. Giants coach Jim Fassell had been told he won't be back. In 1999, George Thompson (NYU Bobst librarian to the stars--I mean the Olsen Twins) posted this: This past weekend one of NYC's local pro football teams was whipped 50 to 21. The NYTimes quoted the coach as saying afterwards "they went right through us like Grant took Richmond". . . . (NYTimes,September 21, 1999, p. D4, col. 2) This is an old and familiar phrase to me, having heard it often from my father in the 1950s,though he would phrase it more consistently, eg., "he took him likeGrant took Richmond." Presumably this expression dates to when the Civil War was still a living memory -- it's hard to believe that itwas coined by some history buff and taken up by a generation that wouldn't have understood the allusion. Still, I don't find it in The Making of America. The other source I checked was the RLIN cooperative library catalog, which showed a screenplay from 1949:Miss Grant Takes Richmond, by Nat Perrin and Frank Tashlin. Is it possible that it originates with some piece of mid-20th century popular culture? I would expect Gone with the Wind to have given us*"like Sherman took Atlanta".Any thoughts? My apologies to our southern correspondents if this awakens painful memories .GAT I looked at the SPORTING NEWS, without luck. AUGUSTA ARCHIVES didn't have anything early. ANCESTRY helped. There are over 1,000 hits; I didn't check all of them, but the following looks like a nationwide ad. The phrase is no later than 1920. 5 October 1920, FAYETTEVILLE DEMOCRAT (Fayetteville, Arkansas), pg. 6?, col. 1 ad: Constance Talmadge "The Love Expert" A John Emerson Anita Loos Production She knew her soul mate the moment she clasped hands with him, but ot get him she first had to marry off his entire family. Talk about a miracle worker, Zowie! Old ones or cold ones, longs or blondes, veterans or youngsters, she matched 'em like Grant took RIchmond. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Dec 23 02:34:33 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:34:33 -0600 Subject: Arnold Zwicky's collection of blends (was:Re: Fed up) Message-ID: At 8:23 AM -0800 12/22/03, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >.like gerald cohen, i'm interested in syntactic blends and have been collecting them for years. Arnold, How many do you have? Any plans to publish them? Gerald From pds at VISI.COM Tue Dec 23 02:57:24 2003 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:57:24 -0600 Subject: Fed up In-Reply-To: <20031222130858.9B29E61AD@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Gerald's message was UU-encoded. Decoded, the message reads: >>>>> This looks like a blend: "fed up with" and "sick of" Gerald Cohen -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of sagehen Sent: Sun 12/21/2003 6:14 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Fed up I have always said "fed up with" sthg or other. One of my daughters, who spent one year of her early adolescence in an English boarding school, says "fed up of," which I always think is simply a mistake. Today, however, I ran across "fed up of" in an English novel and am wondering if this is ordinary English usage. Is it normal in any North American region? A. Murie <<<<< This appears to have come from Microsoft Outlook. To get rid of the gibberish, Gerald need to go to Tools>Options>Mail Format>Settings. There he needs to select MIME rather than UU-encode. --Tom Kysilko, who learned to use WinZip to decode such messages from GSCole. At 12/22/2003 08:13 AM -0500, Thomas M. Paikeday wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Thomas M. Paikeday" >Subject: Re: Fed up >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >How does a message like this get garbled? The fault of the system, of my >computer, or what? Help appreciated. > >T. M. P. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" >To: >Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 7:19 PM >Subject: Re: Fed up > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail >header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > > Subject: Re: Fed up > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >----- > > > > >VGhpcyBsb29rcyBsaWtlIGEgYmxlbmQ6ICJmZWQgdXAgd2l0aCIgYW5kICJzaWNrIG9mIg0KIA0K > > >R2VyYWxkIENvaGVuDQoNCgktLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLSANCglGcm9tOiBBbWVy > > >aWNhbiBEaWFsZWN0IFNvY2lldHkgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIHNhZ2VoZW4gDQoJU2VudDogU3VuIDEy > > >LzIxLzIwMDMgNjoxNCBQTSANCglUbzogQURTLUxATElTVFNFUlYuVUdBLkVEVSANCglTdWJqZWN0 > > >OiBGZWQgdXANCgkNCgkNCg0KCUkgaGF2ZSBhbHdheXMgc2FpZCAiZmVkIHVwIHdpdGgiICBzdGhn > > >IG9yIG90aGVyLiAgT25lIG9mIG15IGRhdWdodGVycywgd2hvDQoJc3BlbnQgb25lIHllYXIgb2Yg > > >aGVyIGVhcmx5IGFkb2xlc2NlbmNlIGluIGFuIEVuZ2xpc2ggYm9hcmRpbmcgc2Nob29sLCBzYXlz > > >DQoJImZlZCB1cCBvZiwiIHdoaWNoIEkgYWx3YXlzIHRoaW5rIGlzIHNpbXBseSBhIG1pc3Rha2Uu > > >ICBUb2RheSwgaG93ZXZlciwgSQ0KCXJhbiBhY3Jvc3MgImZlZCB1cCBvZiIgaW4gYW4gRW5nbGlz > > >aCBub3ZlbCAgYW5kIGFtIHdvbmRlcmluZyBpZiB0aGlzIGlzDQoJb3JkaW5hcnkgRW5nbGlzaCB1 > > >c2FnZS4gSXMgaXQgbm9ybWFsIGluIGFueSBOb3J0aCBBbWVyaWNhbiByZWdpb24/DQoJQS4gTXVy > > aWUNCgkNCg0K From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 23 03:20:31 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:20:31 EST Subject: innovators and followers (was Fed Up) Message-ID: Yes, and even this is not complicated enough. After all, if innovative forms didn't make some linguistic sense, followers will not follow the innovators (all other things being equal). So innovations of the "fed up with/fed up of" variety are probably real options for most people--i.e., a number of people will be inclined to innovate from time to time. Moreover, innovations surely begin variably--sometimes one will say one thing, sometimes another (for example, that Southern US "to" that occurs off and on in a sentence such as "Shall I ask him to call you?" and "They almost had the ceiling to fall on their heads" cf. Yankee "I helped him fry/to fry the bacon"). I first heard that as an adult, and I don't care how many times I hear it, I'll NEVER say it! My daughters never heard it from me, but THEY say it. And then social factors play a role as well: I am sure that as a child I heard both "He don't" and "He doesn't," but I quite regularly SAID "He don't" while (unconsciously) writing in my school work "He doesn't." I was a freshman in college before someone made me self-conscious about my spoken "He don't"--at which point I became a categorical "He doesn't" speaker. In a message dated 12/22/03 11:23:54 AM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > (just to be clear, let me remind > everyone, again, that most speakers with an innovative form are not > themselves the innovators, but merely the vehicles of the form's > spread, so that it makes no sense to ask after the grammatical > rationale for their usage.  they're just repeating what they hear.) > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 23 03:53:51 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:53:51 -0500 Subject: Murphy's Law Antedated to 1952! In-Reply-To: <106.2a8460c7.2d190e7f@aol.com> Message-ID: Lately I have been thinking that Murphy's Law may not have originated in an aviation or engineering context after all. For example, there are references to it as an old theatrical saying beginning in 1957, not that long after the earliest aviation/engineering evidence (1955). Now I have found an earlier citation completely unrelated to aviation/engineering and presented as an old mountaineering saying, perhaps a Peruvian one: "It was at the base of the mountain [Yerupaja in Peru] that an old legend came true, the high country one that states: 'Anything that can possibly go wrong does.'" Los Angeles Times, Aug. 22, 1952, page B5 This is not referred to as "Murphy's Law," and is not an antedating of that term, but clearly antedates the proverb. The term "Murphy's Law" in fact loses its importance as evidence accumulates that the Edwards Air Force Base story was attached to an already existing saying. I realize that the Edwards Air Force Base story is supposed to have happened in 1949, but extensive investigations by Barry Popik, myself, and others have failed to find even a shred of pre-1955 documentation. It should be noted that the above Los Angeles Times passage is taken from a review of John Sack's book, The Butcher. The proverb may well occur in that book itself and the book may clarify whether it is a Peruvian saying. I will get hold of a copy of Sack's book and check this out. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Tue Dec 23 14:58:24 2003 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:58:24 -0500 Subject: WOTY nominee - Newspeak category Message-ID: The head of the MTA here in NYC announced that he was laying off the elevator operators, in spite of the fact that he promised there would be no service cuts. The layoffs were labeled as a 'convenience cut.' -- Bruce Dykes Graphnet NOC From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Dec 23 15:34:36 2003 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:34:36 EST Subject: Sky Hook (1971) Message-ID: In a message dated > Sat, 20 Dec 2003 18:13:55 -0500, Seán Fitzpatrick < > grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET> writes > > < with a straight face, put in a requisition for a "bit bucket". > > Does the digital community have "Go ask the [bo's'n, Scout Master, > supply sergeant,] for the " jokes? Do geeks ask new > guys to do Teoma searches for good prices on accelerated inverted > transistoids? I do not know of any snipe-hunt jokes in the digital community (snipes are purely analog?). Digital novices are so colorfully inept that perhaps there is no need of snipe hunts to entertain veterans. The "bit bucket" is an old gag but as far as I can recall is an in-joke among veterans rather than a snipe. The boss I quoted was pulling the leg of non-technical personnel in the admin office. This same boss also liked to tell of the "Press Support Detachment" with a Table of Organization and Equipment strength of thirty bartenders. I once perpetrated something similar, entirely without intention. I put in a requisition for a "gender-changer" and got a long-distance call from Division asking if this were a joke? No, it wasn't, I needed to mate two male plugs (ADS-Lers, make up your own joke.) In case you're interested, the US Army standard-issue tall tale is the "Mess Kit Repair Batallion". - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Dec 23 15:41:21 2003 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:41:21 EST Subject: Grant Took Richmond (1920) Message-ID: But Grant did not take Richmond. He was already south and west of Richmond when he chased Lee westward to Appomattox Court House. RIchmond was captured, rather absent-mindedly, by African-American troops of Weitzel's division of the Army of the James who were chasing Lee and found that the main road westward happened to run through Richmond. They stopped to put out fires in the city, thereby preventing Richmond from burning to the ground as did Columbia, South Carolina. Citizens of Richmond should be thankful to these African-Americans for keeping their city from being wiped off the map. - Jim Landau From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 23 15:57:54 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:57:54 -0500 Subject: Murphy's Law in 1952 Book In-Reply-To: <200312230353.hBN3rrV03664@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: It turns out that Murphy's Law does appear in the 1952 book reviewed in the Los Angeles Times: "ANYTHING THAT CAN POSSIBLY GO WRONG, DOES. -- Ancient mountaineering adage" John Sack, _The Butcher: The Ascent of Yerupaja_ (1952), epigram, page 2 On the basis of the above citation and other early references to this as an established proverb in various fields, such as the theater, I will assert that the standard Edwards Air Force Base story of the origin of Murphy's Law (supposedly happened in 1949, not documented in any way until 1955) represents at most the application of an old saying to a new engineering context. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From e.pearsons at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Dec 23 16:26:16 2003 From: e.pearsons at EARTHLINK.NET (Enid Pearsons) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:26:16 -0500 Subject: Fed up Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "sagehen" To: Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 2:52 PM Subject: Re: Fed up | "Bored of" does seem to me to be a syntactic blend of "bored by (or |with)" | and "tired of." I think I only hear this from young children, but perhaps | there are regional differences in this. I first heard it from young children as well, but those children are now in their mid-thirties, and they're still saying it. Enid Pearsons From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 23 17:11:06 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:11:06 -0500 Subject: Correction of Murphy's Law in 1952 Book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, Fred Shapiro wrote: > "ANYTHING THAT CAN POSSIBLY GO WRONG, DOES. > -- Ancient mountaineering adage" > John Sack, _The Butcher: The Ascent of Yerupaja_ (1952), > epigram, page 2 I knew I was going to do that. I meant, of course, epigraph. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Dec 23 17:30:02 2003 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:30:02 -0500 Subject: More on Musical "Jazz" Message-ID: I will send my thoughts on all this in a couple of weeks, when I will have the time for some extensive typing. Be warned. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Dec 23 17:52:21 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:52:21 -0600 Subject: More on Musical "Jazz" Message-ID: We are duly warned and eagerly waiting. Gerald Cohen -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of George Thompson Sent: Tue 12/23/2003 11:30 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: More on Musical "Jazz" I will send my thoughts on all this in a couple of weeks, when I will have the time for some extensive typing. Be warned. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > From AAllan at AOL.COM Tue Dec 23 19:14:17 2003 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:14:17 -0500 Subject: Correction of Murphy's Law in 1952 Book Message-ID: > I knew I was going to do that. I meant, of course, > epigraph. > > Fred Shapiro Better than epitaph. Allan Metcalf From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Tue Dec 23 20:35:19 2003 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 20:35:19 -0000 Subject: Five Fingered Salute Message-ID: > In conjunction with Bronx cheer, I think the "five fingered salute" is > probably open palm toward the person to be disrespected, thumb to nose, > fingers spread and waving, tongue out. That's the sense in which I have encountered it. We Brits would more commonly call it "cocking a snook" at somebody. In my piece on the latter phrase, at , I describe "five fingered salute" as an American expression. In view of comments on this list that suggest it isn't known, might that be incorrect? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From AAllan at AOL.COM Tue Dec 23 23:12:33 2003 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 18:12:33 EST Subject: Annual Luncheon at ADS Annual Meeting Message-ID: At last the full details can be told! At 12:15 p.m. Saturday, January 10 in Hampton A & B of the Sheraton Boston, the American Dialect Society will hold its annual luncheon. The featured speaker will be Charles Meyer of the University of Massachusetts, Boston. His topic: “Can you Really Study Language Variation in Linguistic Corpora?” The meal is described below in all its delectable detail. It's yours for $30 a person. There's no time to ask you to send payment in advance. Reservations in advance will be appreciated, however. Just notify me directly (not posting to ADS-L): AAllan at aol.com. Make checks payable to the American Dialect Society, of course, or you can bring cash. You're also invited to add the (COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY) ADS registration fee when you pay for the luncheon. Officially, as guests of LSA, our members must register with LSA. Unofficially, we welcome $20 from regular members and $10 from students to help with ADS expenses. You'll get a sticker for your badge when you do. The newsletter of the ADS didn't get published (mea culpa), but you can see the whole ADS meeting program on our website, www.americandialect.org. - Allan Metcalf, ADS executive secretary Mango Chicken Baby Spinach with Radicchio, Endive, Plum Tomatoes, Macadamia Encrusted Chevre with Ranch Dressing Freshly Baked Rolls and Flatbreads, Sweet Butter and Coffee Service ~ Baked Breast of Chicken Stuffed with Mango, Tri-colored Peppers and Red Onions with a Ginger, Lemongrass Cream Batonnets of Zucchini and Yellow Squash Broccoli Florettes and Baby Carrots Caribbean Style Rice with Red Beans ~ Banana Chocolate Chip Bread Pudding with Rum Cream From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 24 00:14:10 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 19:14:10 -0500 Subject: HSA, CDO, Frankenpet Message-ID: HSA From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 23 December 2003, pg. A14, col. 1: The new year will bring something of a revolution in American health care. Insurance companies such as Golden Rule, Fortis and Aetna will soon be marketing Health Savings Accounts, which promise a new era of individual choice for health insurance. HSAs, the saving grace of the Medicate prescription drug bill, are the new and improvedversion of Medical Savings Accounts. They promise individuals and employers relief from spiraling health costs, and without the need for restrictive HMOs. --------------------------------------------------------------- CDO Also in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL, pg. C1, col. 2: As with high-profile bankruptcies by other companies, such as Enron Corp and WorldCom Inc., some of the biggest losers from the Parmalat filing likely would face exposure as a result of holdings in financial products known as collateralized-debt obligations, or CDOs. These products package dozens of loans and other types of credit risk, which are then sliced into portions offering varying amounts of risk and return. --------------------------------------------------------------- FRANKENPET From the new free newspaper, AM NEW YORK, 23 December 2003, pg. 1, col. 1: _"Frankenpet"--_ _dog sans fleas_ Scientists believe they areclose to a hi-tech cure for the most common curse upon man's best friend--etenocephalides canis, the common dog flea. (That's great! Now, as the saying goes, you lie down with dogs, and you wake up with...dogs?--ed.) From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Dec 24 01:14:43 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 20:14:43 -0500 Subject: Five Fingered Salute In-Reply-To: <3FE8A707.11691.7E3812@localhost> Message-ID: Michael Quinion writes: >> In conjunction with Bronx cheer, I think the "five fingered salute" is >> probably open palm toward the person to be disrespected, thumb to nose, >> fingers spread and waving, tongue out. > >That's the sense in which I have encountered it. We Brits would more >commonly call it "cocking a snook" at somebody. In my piece on the >latter phrase, at , I >describe "five fingered salute" as an American expression. In view of >comments on this list that suggest it isn't known, might that be >incorrect? ~~~~~~~ I don't think the expression is unknown here, but it is, or was, more usually called "thumbing your nose" at someone. As kids, we understood it to mean "kiss my ass." The gesture and the expression have been pretty much superceded by "the finger," once felt to be ruder, but through familiarity losing its sting. I always thought "cocking a snook" meant just an upward flicking of the thumb on the tip of the nose, with the hand relaxed, a more dismissive than aggressive gesture. A. Murie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 24 03:09:18 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:09:18 -0500 Subject: Grant Took Richmond (1916); Senegal in Harlem Message-ID: GRANT TOOK RICHMOND (continued) From ProQuest. TH' MORNIN'S MORNIN'; The Home Guards Meet. BY DAMON RUNYON (New York American.). The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 12, 1916. p. 9 (1 page): "What a sucker they're makin' of that guy Tex Rickard," mused the tall fellow. "They're takin' him like Grant took Richmond." DEMPSEY, FIT FOR BATTLE, MUST AVOID GOING STALE; Challenger's Appearance Impresses Leonard More Than Willard's. By BENNY LEONARD.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 28, 1919. p. 13 (1 page) : All New York seems to be here, and Toledo is taking 'em like Grant toook Richmond, only more so. COLLYER'S COMMENT on the SPORT of KINGS; PIMLIOO SELECTIONS. HUNTINGTON SELECTIONS. LATONIA SELECTIONS. WHEELING SELECTIONS. By BERT E. COLLYER.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 2, 1923. p. 24 (1 page): List to the line of stuff wigwagged to me from old Baltimore: "They're going to 'take' these mutuel machines just like Grant took Richmond. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SENEGAL IN HARLEM I'll be in Senegal soon. Sietsema has written about "cheb" before. http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0352/sietsema.php Counter Culture by Robert Sietsema Gift of the Maggi A salty liquid seasoning faces off against ketchup in Harlem December 22nd, 2003 2:00 PM La Marmite 2264 Eighth Avenue 212.666.0653 The national dish of Senegal was inspired by paella, which was brought to the west coast of Africa by Iberian traders in the 16th century. Made under ideal conditions around Dakar, where a cornucopia of vegetables is readily available, Senegalese thiebou djenne (pronounced "cheb-boo-jenn") rivals bouillabaisse in its perfection and complexity. Here's the recipe: Pieces of fish—usually small tuna that can be caught from pirogues—are stuffed with a paste of cilantro, garlic, and green onion, fried in palm oil, and removed. Water is added and vegetables, one by one, are boiled and pulled out. Rice is then cooked in this oily broth with bits of sun-dried stockfish and tamarind. When the rice is done it's bright red from the palm oil and highly flavored by all the ingredients that have gone before. The fish and vegetables are arranged on top of the rice, and the dish is served by the matriarch of the family, who carefully distributes each morsel. The best cheb I've ever had was bought from a woman on the Senegalese island of Gorée, who dispensed takeout meals from a ground-floor kitchen in one of the pastel colonial houses. The customers were mainly African bachelors and low-level American and French foreign-service workers. On most nights, her version boasted nine vegetables, and I learned from her to judge cheb by counting the number of vegetables. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 24 04:58:33 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:58:33 -0500 Subject: Red Rice (1936) Message-ID: Just in time for New Year's. From ProQuest: 1. Hopping John is Magical, Dainty and Easy to Make; Traditional New Year's Eve Dish of South Carolina Eaten as a Ritual by Rich and Poor Alike -- Cow Peas, or Black Beans, are Base. By Elisabeth E. Poe.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 11, 1936. p. X17 (1 page): _Red Rice._ Half pound bacon 1 small onion 1 cup tomatoes 2 cups cooked rice Cut the bacon in small pieces and fry. Remove from the skillet and brown the minced onion in the bacon fat. Add the tomatoes and cooked rice. Blend well and serve. (From the Congressional Cook Book?--ed.) 2. Anne's Reader Exchange Dreaming of a Green Summer; COOKING Q STENCILS AND SUCH HOBBY COURSE A REQUEST MULLED CIDER The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jan 17, 1965. p. 115 (1 page) 3. Red Wine Spices Spaghetti Sauce; LOW COST LASAGNA CHARLESTON RICE RECIPE REQUESTS Anne's Reader Exchange. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Feb 4, 1965. p. C20 (1 page) 4. Georgia on My Mind; Dinner at the McKinnons -- The 20th Century Slips Away, 'Old Savannah' Lives Once More Dinner at the McKinnons' in 'Old Savannah' By William Rice. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jun 8, 1980. p. K1 (2 pages) 5. The Chinese 'Soul Food'; Earthy Greens and Clay Pot Cooking From the Hakkas Chinese Soul Food Greens & Clay Pot Cooking By Marian Cromley Special to The Washington Post. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: May 5, 1985. p. G1 (3 pages) 6. The South's Lost Soul; In Charleston, All Trend, No Tradition RICHMAN'S TABLE Searching for Soul Food By Phyllis C. Richman Washington Post Staff Writer CHARLESTON, S.C.. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Sep 30, 1987. p. E1 (2 pages) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 24 07:38:23 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 02:38:23 EST Subject: "Nobody Goes There--It's Too Crowded" (1957) Message-ID: "NOBODY GOES THERE--IT'S TOO CROWDED" This is attributed to New York Yankee player and manager Yogi Berra. Some say the restaurant was Mama Leone's. However, here it is, at an early date, in a Walter Winchell column. John McNulty wrote for THE NEW YORKER: 30 September 1957, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE (GA), pg. 12, col. 1: _Walter Winchell_ _Madison Ave, going "Mad"_ MADISON AVENUE (the Home of Big Advertising) is now called Mad Avenue, for obvious reasons..."The World of John McNulty" is a readable collection of his essays. It includes a cabbie's classic crack about a popular joynt: "Nobody goes there any more. It's too crowded." (CATNYP) The world of John McNulty, with an appreciation by James Thurber. Imprint Garden City, N.Y., Doubleday, 1957 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- OT: JOHN HESS ON _TIMES_ OMBUDSMAN DAN OKRENT http://www.nypress.com/16/52/news&columns/rotation.cfm This week's NEW YORK PRESS has an interesting piece by John L. Hess titled "Therapeutic Times: And a few humble suggestions for Dan Okrent." Hess is the author of MY TIMES: A MEMOIR OF DISSENT (2003). With his wife Karen Hess, he wrote THE TASTE OF AMERICA (1977). Karen Hess is one of the editors of the forthcoming OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK. I recently wrote to Dan Okrent. You'll find out about it the Sunday after next. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 24 16:54:46 2003 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:54:46 -0800 Subject: Arnold Zwicky's collection of blends (was:Re: Fed up) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Dec 22, 2003, at 6:34 PM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > At 8:23 AM -0800 12/22/03, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> .like gerald cohen, i'm interested in syntactic blends and have been >> collecting them for years. > > > Arnold, > How many do you have? Any plans to publish them? i'm away from my files, but the total collection isn't huge and it's very scattershot. what i *do* have is pretty large collections of blend or possibly blend-originated examples of a few specific types, for example WH+that ("I wonder how many people that were at the party") and GoToGo ("She's going to San Francisco and talk on firewalls"). i've published on the first (as has aimo seppa"nen) and have a grad student working on the second (using my collection plus a very large collection assembled by david denison). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From lsavan at VERIZON.NET Wed Dec 24 18:16:03 2003 From: lsavan at VERIZON.NET (Leslie Savan) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:16:03 -0500 Subject: pile on Message-ID: Does anyone have early citations for the phrase "pile on"? I assume it comes from football--or perhaps traffic accidents. Any ideas? From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Dec 24 19:20:20 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:20:20 -0600 Subject: "Nobody Goes There--It's Too Crowded" (1957) Message-ID: About 15 years ago an article (by William Safire, I think) mentioned that Yogi Berra was being credited with many sayings that he had never really said. It was sort of cool to say, "As Yogi Berra would say,..." and then fill in the blank with whatever folksy philosophical or mildly nonsensical statement one had in mind. Looks like one more might now be added to the list. (I say "might" because Berra was already in the major leagues by 1957). Gerald Cohen P.S. His most famous saying is "It ain't over 'til it's over." Is that one of his genuine contributions? At 2:38 AM -0500 12/24/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > This is attributed to New York Yankee player and manager Yogi Berra. Some >say the restaurant was Mama Leone's. However, here it is, at an early date, >in a Walter Winchell column. John McNulty wrote for THE NEW YORKER: > > 30 September 1957, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE (GA), pg. 12, col. 1: > _Walter Winchell_ >_Madison Ave, going "Mad"_ > MADISON AVENUE (the Home of Big Advertising) is now called Mad Avenue, for >obvious reasons..."The World of John McNulty" is a readable collection of his >essays. It includes a cabbie's classic crack about a popular joynt: "Nobody >goes there any more. It's too crowded." > >(CATNYP) >The world of John McNulty, with an appreciation by James Thurber. >Imprint Garden City, N.Y., Doubleday, 1957 > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 24 22:28:10 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 17:28:10 -0500 Subject: "Nobody Goes There--It's Too Crowded" (1957) In-Reply-To: <12c.38593f14.2d1a9c6f@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > This is attributed to New York Yankee player and manager Yogi Berra. Some > say the restaurant was Mama Leone's. However, here it is, at an early date, > in a Walter Winchell column. John McNulty wrote for THE NEW YORKER: McNulty wrote "Nobody goes there anymore. Its too crowded." in the New Yorker, 10 Feb. 1943. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 24 22:31:22 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 17:31:22 -0500 Subject: "It Ain't Over 'Til It's Over" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Dec 2003, Gerald Cohen wrote: > P.S. His most famous saying is "It ain't over 'til it's over." Is > that one of his genuine contributions? Yes, as far as I know. But I have had trouble pinning down an early source for this; the earliest I have is 1980. Can anyone provide pre-1980 evidence (I know it's supposed to have been said in connection with the Mets' great pennant drive of 1973, but contemporaneous citations appear to be difficult to come by). Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Dec 25 00:47:50 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 19:47:50 -0500 Subject: "It Ain't Over 'Til It's Over" Message-ID: If you subscribe to the theory(as I do) that the phrase is a play on "It ain't over 'til the [fat][church]lady sings," then Berra probably didn't say it in 1973, or even before 1976 or so. If you think Berra used it in 1973, then one could assume that the 'fat/church lady' was a play on Berra. But I doubt it. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Shapiro" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 5:31 PM Subject: "It Ain't Over 'Til It's Over" > On Wed, 24 Dec 2003, Gerald Cohen wrote: > > > P.S. His most famous saying is "It ain't over 'til it's over." Is > > that one of his genuine contributions? > > Yes, as far as I know. But I have had trouble pinning down an early > source for this; the earliest I have is 1980. Can anyone provide > pre-1980 evidence (I know it's supposed to have been said in connection > with the Mets' great pennant drive of 1973, but contemporaneous citations > appear to be difficult to come by). > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 25 01:38:47 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 20:38:47 -0500 Subject: "It Ain't Over 'Til It's Over" In-Reply-To: <200312250048.hBP0mJk07347@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Dec 2003, Sam Clements wrote: > If you subscribe to the theory(as I do) that the phrase is a play on "It > ain't over 'til the [fat][church]lady sings," then Berra probably didn't say > it in 1973, or even before 1976 or so. > > If you think Berra used it in 1973, then one could assume that the > 'fat/church lady' was a play on Berra. But I doubt it. I've done a lot of research on "the fat lady sings" and on Berraisms, and it never occurred to me that one of these was a play on the other; I just figured they were independent synonymous sayings. Since my previous e-mail, I have found a 1977 usage of "ain't over..." on Nexis. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Dec 25 02:52:05 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 21:52:05 -0500 Subject: "It Ain't Over 'Til It's Over" Message-ID: So, who uttered that 1977 cite? SC. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Shapiro" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 8:38 PM Subject: Re: "It Ain't Over 'Til It's Over" > Since my previous e-mail, I have found a 1977 usage of "ain't over..." on > Nexis. > > Fred Shapiro From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 25 03:05:13 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:05:13 -0500 Subject: "It Ain't Over 'Til It's Over" In-Reply-To: <001901c3ca92$153c1180$7627a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Dec 2003, Sam Clements wrote: > So, who uttered that 1977 cite? Earl Weaver quoting Yogi Berra. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 25 12:51:07 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 07:51:07 EST Subject: Gets Late Early; Reggie=Registration; beta.newspaperarchive.com Message-ID: Happy holidays to all. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- GETS LATE EARLY This continues a study of Yogi-isms using the newly available full-text SPORTING NEWS and other databases. If Fred Shapiro has earlier, I apologize. 7 August 1971, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 19, col. 1: Better than anyone, Yogi explained the problem of picking up a flyball in Yankee Stadium in the autumnal haze when a combination of cigartette smoke, sunlight and shadows creates a visual hazard. "It gets late early out there," said Yogi. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- REGGIE-REGISTRATION "Reggie" didn't make the most recent volume of DARE. I rarely hear "reggie" for "registration," although I ask for the vehicle registration all the time. "You want the reggie?" some (but not many) people say. The people who say "reggie" are almost all police officers. Perhaps that should be recorded--if not in DARE, then possibly in the HDAS or OED. OT: My favorite dialect expression at work? That would involve Spanish speakers. "Let me explain you." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BETA.NEWSPAPERACHIVE.COM Ancestry.com doesn't seem to be working right now, so I switched to www.newspaperarchive.com. If you have nothing to do today, then buy a day pass here. It's cheaper than a NYC movie. The search engine seems to be changed/improved. There are now thumnails that you can use. For example, here is "Windy City" before 1885 (something the Chicago Public Library can't tell its own citizens): Decatur Daily Republican - 8/24/1880 ...in shaking the ivories with a sport of the WINDY CITY. 'The Electric John Dillon's new.....to tbe deeUlon of the Democratic convention CITY DEPARTMENT. OHCAP 169 pieces American.....Fluid Stoves. They are the best in the CITY. 10-dtf Tut funeral of the late J nines.....and from the depot, and to any part of the CITY. at the St. Nicholas Hotel wi I receive.. Decatur, Illinois Tuesday, August 24, 1880 629 k Newark Daily Advocate - 7/30/1885 ...be a splendid opportunity to visit the "WINDY CITY, as the fare for the round trip.....escort of the remains arrival in New York CITY, to the CITY Hall, and their delivery. A.....the contemplated national monument in the CITY of Naw York, and the general manager.....will, after proper consultation with the CITY authorities, prepare a s.-heilule of the.. Newark, Ohio Thursday, July 30, 1885 908 k Fort Wayne Daily Gazette - 7/22/1881 ...going o between the town aforesaid and th WINDY CITY yclept Chicago. But th idiot is.....gti mnntLa Three 2. Persons leaving the CITY during th fjmmer months can have the.....bay for a few years and well washed, that CITY would soon be as godly a place as could.....evening, it befthe second wedding in this CITY in ich a Chinese and an American 'oman.. Fort Wayne, Indiana Friday, July 22, 1881 512 k Fort Wayne Daily Gazette - 7/22/1881 ...going on between the town aforesaid and the WINDY CITY yclept Chicago. But this idiot is.....JS dtimaaUu 5 Thrse S .Persons leaving the CITY during the 9-tmrnef months can have the.....bay for a few years and well washed, that CITY Would soon be as godly a place as could.....it be ing the second wedding in this CITY in which a Chinese and an American woman.. Fort Wayne, Indiana Friday, July 22, 1881 486 k Newark Daily Advocate - 3/31/1884 ...cheaply securedBrice Ellis who went to the "WINDY CITY" a few days ago, hat secured a.....OFFICE OVER THE FRAXKMX BASK. Election of CITY Officers CITY OF NEWAEK, MAYOR'S OFFICE.....DAILY ADVOCATE TBUCPHONK CONNECTION. __ The CITY circulation ot the DAILY ADVOCATE 10.....Newark. THE GDOUUII RIOT. The People of Our CITY Greatly Excited. The DAIMT ADVOCATE can.. Newark, Ohio Monday, March 31, 1884 665 k Indiana Progress - 7/18/1878 ...usage would be wholly impracticable in the WINDY CITY. Cover up a whole block with a.....and 102, Mr. Robinson and wife of Mountain CITY, native Kentuckians, married eightytwo.....of the light weight which bakers in that CITY give to bread, and speaks significantly.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, July 18, 1878 896 k And here's "I'm from Missouri" before 1898. It appears to be the same story that I found in the WASHINGTON POST and then earlier in the PHILADELPHIA TIMES: Mountain Democrat - 7/17/1897 ...I) offer Juujprd For His Life. "I'M FROM MISSOURI, and they'll have to show That is.....was to jump, and so I jumped. I'M FROM MISSOURI and you'll have to show mo I" THE.....music, culture or anything different FROM the detestable surroundings FROM which I.. Placerville, California Saturday, July 17, 1897 559 k Here's the earliest "tuna casserole": Soda Springs Sun - 11/2/1934 ...Weekly Scrapbook WEEK'S BEST RECIPE: TUNA CASSEROLE: 1 can TUNA fish, 1 can condensed.....Vz Inch thick In bottom. Add a half of the TUNA in a layer then cover wtth a half of can.....soup, 1 can peas potato chips. Orease CASSEROLE and put a layer of.....with another serving of potato chips, TUNA, soup and peas. top with chips and bake.. Soda Springs, Idaho Friday, November 02, 1934 494 k Here's "jazz." The NEW YORK TIMES cites are in error, but the 1913 citation is interesting, There are also 1916 citations for "jazz" music: New York Times - 4/23/1859 ...few chillon from 6 14 }eats of age can For JAZZ, inquire of 5. Petenon s Store, No. a.. New York, New York Saturday, April 23, 1859 940 k New York Daily Times - 12/22/1852 ...a very supermr of ROY CLOTHING. oulhht of JAZZ 1133. j.mned, an partner. (l (lteolthe.. New York, New York Wednesday, December 22, 1852 832 k New York Times - 2/27/1858 ...by he Ihe people of their when they pieced. JAZZ, of the bill. It days, but yet no had.. New York, New York Saturday, February 27, 1858 814 k Berkshire County Eagle - 3/8/1860 ...and at the Tim ofJdm A. Walker, A. Mardock, JAZZ V. and John E. Merrill. rim town the I.. Pittsfield, Massachusetts Thursday, March 08, 1860 1015 k New York Times - 8/1/1859 ...the rumor ar.d found that it was a caie JAZZ Jl. Is the wDh an a I01 a houLe at the.. New York, New York Monday, August 01, 1859 804 k New York Times - 1/16/1860 ...ii3 lltd aria v montu. Mary W..Cnry, 8. JAZZ. wife or Beman, formerly of Friday, of.. New York, New York Monday, January 16, 1860 832 k New York Times - 6/18/1859 ...is be by with by the Nicaragua Con. stabs b JAZZ to have BatMan called In October, to.. New York, New York Saturday, June 18, 1859 790 k New York Daily Times - 9/25/1852 ...34 d.. 134 J T ]uP F hound Yurh look B Ir.m JAZZ and Io %m it 33ds sod 254 to J Hr..e: (t.. New York, New York Saturday, September 25, 1852 778 k New York Daily Times - 5/17/1855 ...by the miners of lediaaa for killing J. Me JAZZ% found and ou the 31at orlast month. The.. New York, New York Thursday, May 17, 1855 911 k Fort Wayne Weekly Sentinel - 6/4/1913 ...Francisco the most popular word is 'the old JAZZ.' It means anything you may happen to.. Fort Wayne, Indiana Wednesday, June 04, 1913 705 k Here's "Grant took Richmond": Massillon Independent - 9/8/1898 ...and confidence without stint. GRANT TOOK RICHMOND, captured Lee's army two cried.....the new forage the Florida velvet HOW GRANT MET LINCOLN. Attending the Klrnt ml.....melon jou mus' know what you to at Aa' TOOK out bow de knife IB gwine in; Pat one.....replied that the country wanted him to take RICHMOND .and asked if he cculd do it, to wh.. Massillon, Ohio Thursday, September 08, 1898 725 k Washington Post - 4/30/1916 ...It'a JHappy. f; W She'll TakpHim Ijke GRANT TOOK RICHMOND, Yea Bo amp; M He Had a I4ttle.....The committee believes this method will GRANT every golfer sit the clulb an op.....J a Hot Meal fe f Once a J V Month. Fulton TOOK Nap While Walling for Reich Boul Latter.. Washington, District Of Columbia Sunday, April 30, 1916 776 k Reno Evening Gazette - 6/26/1916 ...that it has not been in since GRANT TOOK RICHMOND Reno, All the Way As to -the.....got off to a bad start when Jerry's bunch TOOK three runs, in the opening inning. It.. Reno, Nevada Monday, June 26, 1916 939 k A few years ago, Allan Metcalf asked me to be 1871 for "Groundhog Day." The Bill Murray movie GROUNDHOG DAY is showing in town this weekend. Here are the antedatings: Portsmouth Times - 2/5/1870 ...always reliable. LAST WednesDAY was "GROUND HOG" DAY. The animal saw his shadow and.....and contains three and one-half acres of GROUND. The idea of establishing a City.....week from next MonDAY is St. VaJeutine's DAY. __ THE weather, for the past few DAYs.....Eagle says Henry Smoot sold a cow the other DAY for 8500. She was a Durham. The purchaser.. Portsmouth, Ohio Saturday, February 05, 1870 832 k Indiana Progress - 2/4/1870 ...column. WEDNESDAY the inst., was GROUND HOG DAY, to ar, old saying, the GROUND HOG.....Encampment, was next gone into. It to llio GROUND, a distance of about eigh teen feet.....comes out of his hole this DAY, and if ho sees his shadow, goes back for.....to issue the "I'KOOiucss'' at an earlier DAY in the week, so that all its subscribers.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Friday, February 04, 1870 914 k Herald And Torch Light - 2/12/1868 ...is known throughout the country as GROUND HOG DAY. On that DAY the GROUND HOG leaves.....of its kind that we have tasted for many a DAY. Gunnin lloii DAY. SunDAY, the 2nd.....with a sufficiency of snow to cover the GROUND, and to afford pretty good sleighing.....The One-half of 35 Acres of Wheat, in the GROUND, aud much othar property not to name.. Hagerstown, Maryland Wednesday, February 12, 1868 1120 k Finally, "OK" is the usual mess, but see the BANGOR DAILY WHIG AND COURIER: Bangor Daily Whig And Courier - 1/22/1838 ...OK -i IS.l1 i of iituafion, buundirien, face.....bv just V No. 3 Blue FKKOERICK LAMBERT._ OK jau PKW iu fomrov.. Bangor, Maine Monday, January 22, 1838 551 k Huron Reflector - 4/24/1838 ...JOHN WAKKVAN and 1 WALTER MAHLON K. TAYI.OK, I J llnsJAMiv TAYT.OK. Sale of" REAL.. Norwalk, Ohio Tuesday, April 24, 1838 731 k Bangor Daily Whig And Courier - 1/8/1839 ...Iphrfns, OftrtiLrore. GflTf'c usliiu.iso'OK, Swiss a'tid Mull Cambric sWushn, i.....r fbp'e, T. r Cherry Hrrif, E. -fa i'ito OK Machia8r J.AT. W. Allan, T. Farnsworth.. Bangor, Maine Tuesday, January 08, 1839 697 k Alton Telegraph - 12/14/1839 ...by tW iiiertMsiii" dfinanU fur IIHK CAUSF OK BILIOUS COMPLAINTS AND A OK Ct A wei.....aud i.< iitincn's aud KrFrnt fir li ..OK-, wmpltle. with Bridles and ipritW Schoel.....verj superior. fiipgO] G. VAN IVORY SETS OK KNIVES FOI.KS, con l-l.-ir; some rery fine.. Alton, Illinois Saturday, December 14, 1839 645 k Republican Compiler - 1/8/1839 ...an. u M., THE PROPERTY situated on the 1 OK> NOVEMBER Michael IIuiFujau. Monies IE It.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Tuesday, January 08, 1839 711 k Bangor Daily Whig And Courier - 10/15/1840 ...iOO Mush Wheat. Shorts a substitute for Pwv OK PSALMODY; by the Uoslivn Handel ender. now.....clear Pvik, not born re1 i" JU -4-W i 10 >0 OK PSALMODY; by the IJosliwi Handel ender.. Bangor, Maine Thursday, October 15, 1840 562 k Bangor Daily Whig And Courier - 5/2/1838 ...30 to 30 gallons Wall W.-F-. ottTHE AII r OK SWIFT WRITING' ftlre any thing eTeCTed, we.....jrc inviieil lo cofl at Nn. 30 Main street. OK URY GOODS OEKU iH4.TUI.1 wiH IIHVP ihbir.. Bangor, Maine Wednesday, May 02, 1838 563 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 25 13:20:22 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 08:20:22 EST Subject: Shysters (1848) Message-ID: "Thumnail" I just typed? I'm all thumbs. I had meant to say "epigram." A day pass is $4.95. You can get five newspapers for free, but don't do that--it's just five newspapers. I must remind all to keep this information away from Sam Clements, or I'm done for. You have to type "shyster" and "shysters," it appears. This is the earliest: Dixon Evening Telegraph - 2/23/1848 ...every gangof moral terrorists, bigots and SHYSTERS in the country political, religious.. Dixon, Illinois Wednesday, February 23, 1848 917 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 25 15:10:22 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 10:10:22 EST Subject: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) Message-ID: This is a great article, so I'll type the whole thing. Again, you can read it for $4.95 on www.newspaperarchive.com. Click on the new search, and then "advanced search." 4 June 1913, FORT WAYNE SENTINEL, pg. 8?, col. 5: _GOES BACK HOME_ _WITH NEW SLANG_ _"Hod Dickety-Dog" is a_ _New One That Comes_ _from Indiana._ _IS MAKING A BIG HIT_ (Boxed--ed.) _"BEST SELLERS" IN CITY SLANG_ Indianapolis--"Hod dickety dog!" Boston--"I should worry." San Francisco--"Are you jerry to the old jazz?" Denver--"It's mush to me." St. Louis--"Gazipe!" New Orleans--"Make a little dodo!" (End of box--ed.) Milroy, Ind., June 4--George Stoner came back from his week's visit to Indianapolis with some new bits of slang, which already have swept Rush and Shelby counties and are the most popular things known here since "The Banks of the Wabash" first saw the light. "I suppose those city fellows kidded the life out of you, hey, George?" asked Henry Talliff, who met Stoner at the interurban station. "Hod dickety dog," said Stoner. "What's that?" asked Tolliff. "Didn't they get any change out of you?" "Didn't you hear me say 'hod dickety dog?" asked the traveler. "What's the matter with you rubes, anyway. Everybody who is anybody knows that that means I'm jerry; I'm hep; I connect. (Column six--ed.) When you try to kid a fellow and he says 'hod dickety dog!' that means that the bunk bounces off of him. Are you next?" "I get you," said Tolliff thoughtfully. "Lemme tell you something here: "Hod dickety dog will be all the rage in New York before winter. All good slang, like everything else, comes from Indiana, and travels east, and this is going fast. 'Round the Stanton House there in Indianapolis there was a bunch of traveling men and they gave me a line on the correct slang in various parts of the country; it's different in different cities. F'rinstance, 'I should worry' has the call in almost every city. It's especially popular in Boston, and in New York they don't know anything else. It isn't very old. It's a Jewish expression and was born about the same time as Talmud. A fellow who sells bunion (?--ed.) plasters for a Denver house was telling me that out his way, if a person doesn't care about the subject under discussion he says, "It's mush to me." "Now, out in San Francisco the most popular word is 'the old jazz.' It means anything you may happen to want it to. There was a St. Louis man there who thought that he was real cute. He was trying to kid me, and just to show him I was wise I said 'Hod dickety-dog.' 'I see you're there with the gazipe,' he says. 'Get it?" "Hod dickety-dog," said Tolliff nodding. "Down in New Orleans they say 'I think I'll take a little dodo,' meaning they're going to hunt the hay or go to sleep. I got a lot more that I'll tell you some other time." "Getting into any gambling houses, George?" asked his friend. Stoner winked. "Lose much?" "Me? Hod dickety-dog." (I'd found "hot diggety" in 1906...There is no page number, and the pages appear out of sequence. For example, page one didn't turn out to be the first page...The year is totally illegible. However, there is a story on another page about the death of "Chuck Connors," a friend of Steve Brodie's on the Bowery. Connors died 10 May 1913 --ed.) From douglas at NB.NET Thu Dec 25 18:04:49 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 13:04:49 -0500 Subject: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) In-Reply-To: <148.1f61e734.2d1c57de@aol.com> Message-ID: > 4 June 1913, FORT WAYNE SENTINEL, pg. 8?, col. 5: At a glance, this appears to me to be probably page 10. >... New Orleans--"Make a little dodo!" This is just conventional French (babytalk) for "sleep" as in "faire dodo" [Cf. adopted English "fais-dodo"], "aller au dodo". >... "Didn't you hear me say 'hod dickety dog?" asked the traveler. "What's >the matter with you rubes, anyway. Everybody who is anybody knows that that >means I'm jerry; I'm hep; I connect. >(Column six--ed.) >When you try to kid a fellow and he says 'hod dickety dog!' that means that >the bunk bounces off of him. Are you next?" > "I get you," said Tolliff thoughtfully. Synonyms: "hep"; "wise"; "next"; "jerry". Whence "jerry"? Could it be "chary" [= "alert"]? -- Doug Wilson From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Dec 25 18:17:23 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 13:17:23 -0500 Subject: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) Message-ID: Actually, you can read it on Ancestry.com, also. You just have to beg and plead with that $!!@&*** search engine. I'm still not sure that it would recognize two words from the article. I'm convinced there is a pre-1913 cite for jazz lurking in Ancestry. The search engine and the quality of the microfilm copies are just so frippin' bad. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2003 10:10 AM Subject: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) > This is a great article, so I'll type the whole thing. Again, you can > read it for $4.95 on www.newspaperarchive.com. Click on the new search, and then > "advanced search." > > > 4 June 1913, FORT WAYNE SENTINEL, pg. 8?, col. 5: > From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Dec 25 19:47:44 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 13:47:44 -0600 Subject: "jerry" (aware); was: Re: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Douglas G. Wilson Sent: Thu 12/25/2003 12:04 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) Synonyms: "hep"; "wise"; "next"; "jerry". Whence "jerry"? Could it be "chary" [= "alert"]? ****** I treated this item in my article "Jerry in Slang: 'A Watch'; Aware'"; in : Gerald Leonard Cohen, _Studies in Slang_, part V, (Frankfurt a. M: Peter Lang), 1997, pp. 143-146. The gist of the answer is that we start with "Jerry-come-tumble" (= a tumbler), which by a word-play on cant "tumble" (to understand) and shortening to just "jerry" becomes "jerry" (aware). Partridge's 1968 _Dictionary of the Underworld_ comes as close as possible to the answer without actually getting it, by suggesting that "jerry" (aware) might have come from "jerrycummumble." Partridge should have selected "Jerry-come-tumble." A look at OED shows: "Jerry-come-tumble," "Jerry-go-nimble" (a tumbler, an antic, a performer (equestrian or other)) and "Jerrycummumble,"" Jerrymumble" (to shake or tumble about). As for the origin of "Jerry-come-tumble," the first quote in OED indicates that the tumbling was the fall in a hanging: 1823 SCOTT. _Quentin D. xiv, "I [A hangman] never quarrel with my customers--my jerry-come-tumbles, my merry dancers." Gerald Cohen From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Dec 25 20:21:44 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 15:21:44 EST Subject: "Y'all" in Friday's New York Times Message-ID: In a message dated 11/29/03 12:00:48 PM, flanigan at OHIO.EDU writes: << and it was clear he didn't know what Guy Bailey was talking about when he said "'you' was originally plural, you know" (or words to that effect). >> Most of us believe that Y'ALL still *IS* plural. Guy Bailey may have heard pseudo-y'all from displaced crypto-Yankees, but that don't make it rahht. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Dec 25 20:45:30 2003 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 15:45:30 -0500 Subject: Five Fingered Salute In-Reply-To: <200312240504.hBO54kk8025827@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Michael Quinion wrote in response to an unattributed quote from upthread: > In conjunction with Bronx cheer, I think the "five fingered salute" is > probably open palm toward the person to be disrespected, thumb to nose, > fingers spread and waving, tongue out. That's the sense in which I have encountered it. We Brits would more commonly call it "cocking a snook" at somebody. In my piece on the latter phrase, at , I describe "five fingered salute" as an American expression. In view of comments on this list that suggest it isn't known, might that be incorrect? <<< I think of this as "thumbing one's nose", which OED Online confirms as "orig. U.S." and synonymous with "cocking a snook" (s.v. nose, n., 8b). -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 26 01:13:07 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 20:13:07 EST Subject: "Cosmopolitan" cocktail (1996) Message-ID: Sarah Jessica Parker showed up at my door to wish me a merry Christmas, remind me to watch the last eight episodes of SEX AND THE CITY, and ask about the origin of the "Cosmopolitan." She's a great gal, but my wife Jennifer Lopez insisted that Sarah get out of that red and green Christmas number and put on some clothes. I'll search the databases for "Cosmopolitan" this weekend, but Google Groups has nothing before 1996. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: ?????? ... crushed ice -----Cosmopolitan: ....?,??? 3/4 oz. vodka 1/2 oz. triple sec 1 oz. cranberry juice 1/2 oz. lime juice ?,???? ... tw.bbs.rec.wine - May 12, 1996 by ?? ?? ??? (...) --------Cosmopolitan: .......?,??? 3/4 oz. vodka 1/2 oz. triple sec 1 oz. cranberry juice 1/2 oz. lime juice (GOOGLE) http://www.thefoodmaven.com/diary/archives/00000024.html The Cosmopolitan was the drink of the summer several years ago. It seemed to come along so suddenly and so nationally that I thought it must have been invented by the Absolut vodka people to promote their product, Absolut Citron, the seemingly essential ingredient that had recently been introduced. Now I learn from Gary Regan, author of “The Bartender’s Bible” and “New Classic Cocktails” that its origins are a mystery. Legend has it that a bartender named Cheryl Cook created it in Miami, but Cheryl Cook has never come forward to claim it or been located, even through Internet searches. The Cosmopolitan is vodka, Cointreau (an orange liqueur), cranberry juice, and lime juice, served in a martini glass. You might say the Metropolitan is the sequel to the Cosmopolitan. It substitutes Absolut Kurant for the Citron, and is also served in a martini glass. At least that is how most bartenders make it. It has evolved into that. The original recipe was somewhat different, however. It was created by Chuck Coggins at a downtown New York haunt called Marion’s, that had had it’s heyday in the 1950s, then was reopened in 1990. It still thrives as a retro martini lounge and funky neighborhood hangout. The way Chuck tells it, in Gary Regan’s “New Classic Cocktails,” Absolut Kurant had just been introduced and “he added some extra ingredients.” These include Rose’s lime juice (which is sweetened), fresh lime juice, cranberry juice, and a lime wedge, but no Cointreau. (GOOGLE) http://www.tonidunlap.com/cosmopolitan.htm If any one drink can be credited for the resurgence of the cocktail in recent years, it the Cosmopolitan, which appeared in bars across the country in the mid-1990s. No one seems to know who created it, and there has been much debate as to whether it first appeared in San Francisco or New York. But no matter who first put these ingredients together, there's no doubt this is the most popular new drink to come along since the martini. (GOOGLE) http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m3188/4_85/73040966/p1/article.jhtml Classic Cosmopolitans.(cocktails)(Brief Article) Restaurants Hospitality, April, 2001, by Robert Plotkin Sex in the City has only confirmed what veteran lounge lizards already know, that when it comes to cocktails the one to be seen with is the Cosmopolitan. The drink has come of age, and while the Martini still grabs a lot of attention, the Cosmo is the drink in the know. Here's our take on why it's a high lottery pick, a bona fide franchise player. Let's first set the record straight. The Cosmopolitan is not, nor has it ever been, a variation of the Martini. The Martini is a cocktail made with a base of gin or vodka, which in turn is modified by an aperitif or liqueur, and then presented with what has now become a wide array of garnishes.On the other hand, the Cosmopolitan is a derivative of the Gimlet, a classic cocktail that originated in Colonial India. The Gimlet is prepared with either gin or vodka, a portion of Rose's lime juice, and is strained into a properly chilled cocktail glass accompanied by a generous wedge of fresh lime.In the 1980s the Gimlet morphed into the Kamikaze, the ultra popular cocktail made with vodka, Rose's lime juice, and a shot of Cointreau. Even now in its third decade, an icy Kamikaze in classy stemware is a "can't miss" proposition. This brings us to the early 1990s and the origin of the Cosmopolitan. Using the Kamikaze as the creative blueprint, the Cosmopolitan is constructed with citrus-infused Absolut Citron vodka, Cointreau, Rose's lime juice, and a healthy splash of cranberry juice. It's then stirred, strained into the coldest, most elegant cocktail glass handy, and presented with a wedge of fresh lime.In (GOOGLE) http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/2001/07/25/FFXQRVPZJPC.html Bar manager Staris Latkas has developed a martini exclusively for Melburnians - the Melbapolitan, which has proven popular in Bar Deco. But he says the most popular martinis remain the oldtime favorites such as the Metropolitan, and, thanks to Sex and the City, the Cosmopolitan. Busteed is amazed by the Cosmopolitan's popularity. ``Everyone wants to be Sarah Jessica Parker and talk about sleeping with men, or women,'' he says. Jarrod Temple, a barman at the funky Khokolat in Melbourne, says the ``nice and sweet'' Cosmopolitans have been moving ``by the truckload'' since the weekly program made it the drink du jour. The Gin Palace in Little Collins Street has long sold a lot of Cosmopolitans but bar manager Ben Wild says vodka drinks are always popular - vodka and lime, vodka and cranberry, vodka and just about anything. Wild says the popularity of drinks like the Cosmopolitan is all part of the international trend away from the ``pretty'' to the oldfashioned cocktails. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 26 03:02:59 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 22:02:59 EST Subject: TANSTAAFL (1949) Message-ID: A happy combination of food, science fiction, and economics. Fred Shapiro posted this in 2001: TANSTAAFL was Robert Heinlein's slogan in his 1966 book, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. It became popular in science-fiction fan circles. However, TINSTAAFL is documented in 1952 in a reference suggesting it may have been around for a while before that. Fred Shapiro The Ancestry search engine takes you to thousands of "free lunch" hits, but Newspaperarchive.com (the new search engine, at least) is easier to use and takes you right to it. 3 October 1949, THE BRADFORD ERA (Bradford, PA), pg. 6, col. 4: _These Days_ _"Tanstaafl" Contains Masterly Plan of Author_ Pierre Dos Utt is a learned man whose name appears in no "Who's Who" and whose scholarly works are listed in no bbibliographies. In fact, Pierre Dos Utt is a planner who has devoted himself in the remaking of society and he is not the first who tried it. The blessing is that most planners only talk or write about it and get lost in a maze of words, although Karl Marx has become the ikon og myriads of the breed whp quarrel so violently that the hope of society is that they may devour each other. At any rate, Pierre Dos Utt has at long last produced a book which contains his masterly plan. he calls it "Yanstaffl." The author says that it is from the Babylonian, but philologists will insist that it is sanskrit, corrupted by Low German. It might even be a jargon fouled up byu Lower Slobbovian, than which nothing is lower as everybody knows. However, it has meaning which I shall secretly give you at the end of this monograph on Tanstaafl which I write with the approval of ASGS, which is whatever you think it is and I hope you keep it clean. * * * * THE ORIGINAL "Tanstaafl" is p[ublished by Cairo {ublications which may or may not exist for any other purpose and which gives its address as 302 5th Street, S. E., Canton, Ohio. The S. E. is undoubtedly imitation of Washington, D. C., Dos Utt thereby paying his respects to the fountain of all knowledge, the seat of perfection, the apogee of conglomeration, even as Brahms did in his First to Beethoven's Ninth. Now, to get to the heart of the matter. Dos Utt finds the human race in a very sad state and has a solution for the problem, he following in a long line of solvers which includes Hammurabi, Wang Anshih, Akbar, Karl Marx and Henry Wallace, to say nothing of Aristotle, Plato, Henry George, and Leon (Col. 6--ed.) Keyserling. He states the problem succinctly: "And correlated with this inherent urge to gain at the expense of others is the deep-seated desire to show off our superioirity. For this reason, we buy flashy automobiles, elaborate houses, extravagant clothes and sparkling jewels. "As money is the medium through which we are able to reflect our affluence, it at once becomes the final goal of our objective. Hence money is the ultimate symbol of our inherent disposition to kill." Now, if you understand that, you can understand anything and ought to reach the preoper conclusion which is to drop dead, as Milton Berle would say in lingua Bronx, but Dos Utt puts it more cogently in the following forensic: **** "THE BASIC human urge to kill for self-aggrandisement is very strong and it is also very dangerous if it is not controlled. Our recommendation is to stimulate personal ambition, but to have it strictly regulated by a Supreme State authority. Then the pattern of human advancement can be evenly regulated for the benefit of all the deserving." (Col. 7--ed.) The volume is amply supplied with charts and graphs but omits photographs as beneath scientific contempt. Also photographic exactitude defies the artistic skill of the chart drawer who divines what figures mean by making them obscure. It is thus ruled by the Society of Statistical Arts. It also is adequately statistical and footnoted and proves its point by algebra but omits astrophysics. However, I should fail my readers were I not to point to one essential lapse in this otherwise colossal labor. On page 18, Dos Utt provides a chart to prove that horses, cattle, fowl and hogs have made great progress but that man has stood still. He has not, most surprisingly, noted that a wingless fowl has been produced thus increasing the breast of this biped. This omission is serious because of its implications, for were we, by our higher intelligence, to produce an armless man, we should forever save the human race from kleptomania which is a short term for such creatures as pick-pockets, tac-collectors and subsidy hunters. Now, our secret: Tanstaaffl (sic) is mnemonic for "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch." No author is given. "These Days" was a syndicated column by George E. Sokolsky (1893-1962). The following is from a search for "Dos Utt": Approximately 5 Results Documents 1 - 5 for Search term(s) "dos utt" Search took 0.125 seconds. Independent Record - 10/4/1949 ...dates undobtedly two added Pierre DOS UTT is a learned man whose name appears in no.....in no bibliographies. In fact, Pierre DOS UTT is a planner who has devoted himself to.....devour each other. At any rate, Pierre DOS UTT has at long last produced a book which.....in ..Key to the CUy In ington, D. C.. DOS UTT thereby one scene he tears a telephone.. Helena, Montana Tuesday, October 04, 1949 817 k Waterloo Daily Courier - 10/2/1949 ...GibbeJrish By GEORGE E. SOKOLSKY Pierre DOS UTT is a learned man whose name appears in no.....in no bibliographies. In fact, Pierre DOS UTT is a planner who has devoted himself to.....lently that the hope of society but DOS UTT puts it more tnat inftv maw i j. that.....devour each other. At any rate, Fierre DOS UTT has at long: last produced a book which.. Waterloo, Iowa Sunday, October 02, 1949 831 k Bradford Era - 10/3/1949 ...was a bottle of insect lotion Pierre DOS UTT is a learned man Keyserling. He states.....I Attlee to unt11 lale j fact. Pierre DOS UTT is a planner j is the deep-seated desire.....otherwise colossal labor. On page 18, DOS UTT provides a chart to prove that horses.....wlll jnsjst tnat H is salient, j but DOS UTT puts it more cogently has sunk to a.. Bradford, Pennsylvania Monday, October 03, 1949 707 k Joplin Globe - 10/1/1949 ...SOLlvOLSKY. i to retired miners. Pierre DOS UTT is a learned man whose name appears in no.....devour each other. At any rate, Pierre DOS UTT has, at long last, produced a book which.. Joplin, Missouri Saturday, October 01, 1949 832 k Berkshire Evening Eagle - 1/24/1950 ...centered around a book by Dr. Pierre DOS UTT, who offers "a plan for new economic.....important corporation. The teachings of Dr. UTT point to the fact that man has produced.....We are reaching an age, according to Dr. "UTT, when this should happen State of.. Pittsfield, Massachusetts Tuesday, January 24, 1950 809 k From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 26 03:38:25 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 22:38:25 -0500 Subject: TANSTAAFL (1949) In-Reply-To: <1d9.1731b76b.2d1cfee3@aol.com> Message-ID: Barry, Can you try a search on Newspaperarchive.com for pre-1945 occurrences of "thing as a free lunch" (as in "there's no such thing as a free lunch" and similar phrases)? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 26 04:28:42 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:28:42 EST Subject: Sunset & Shirley Temple Cocktails (1950) Message-ID: The "Sunset" cocktail is somewhat like the "Comopolitan" in that...just a minute! ("Jen, Sarah Jessica has had too many and you should take her home!") Sorry--these New York City women go crazy on Christmas. The following appears to be of interest for both cocktails: 15 February 1950, WAUKESHA DAILY FREEMAN (Waukesha, WIsconsin), pg. 7, col. 1: _He Says Women Drink_ _Far More Than Men Do_ SAN FRANCISCO (UP)--Eastern men prefer Scotch whiskey, Westerners prefer bourbon--but women drink more than men and like anything alcoholic. That's the opinion of John H. Hensley, manager of the Hotel Mark Hopkins' famous Top of the Mark cocktail lounge. Hensley has been catering to people's tastes for potables for 20 years and feels (Col. 2--ed.) he knows a thing or two about drinking. (...) The so-called weaker sex also specializes in consuming, in great quantities, the fancier drinks, Hensley said. The "Sunset," a Mark special with vodka, lime juice and fresh strawberries, is a female favorite. "But the one they like best," Hensley said, "is the 'Saint Petersburg.'" The St. Pete, made in a large brandy snifter glass, is a wicked concoction of two shots of Grand Marnier, a liqueur which tastes a little like orange-flavored brandy, plus two shots of Napoleon brandy and the rest of the glass filled with champagne poured over cracked ice. _Few Basic Favorites_ Hensley estimated there are 5,000 possible alcoholic combinations. Top of the Mark sticks pretty much to 150 basic cocktails--although Hensley said the favorites with bar habitues everywhere are Martinis, Manhattans, whiskey sours and Tom Collins. One of the most popular drinks in the sky room bistro is non-alcoholic. Made of fresh fruits and juices and ginger ale especially for 'teen-agers who frequent the lounge, the Mark once called it the "Shirley Temple." After Miss Temple divorced her husband, John Agar, the hotel decided the name no longer was appropriate and that the movie star was a bit mature for the bobby-sox set. So the drink was changed to the "Shari Robinson," the name of another young Hollywood starlet. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 26 06:13:03 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 01:13:03 EST Subject: "Whole Ball of Wax" (1892); Salt Water Taffy (1893); Peanut Gallery (1876) Message-ID: Nah, there was nothing more for "lunch." It's strange that just that one "TANSAAFL" article came up on the first search, but the other syndicated articles appeared when I checked "Dos Utt." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- WHOLE BALL OF WAX 20 September 1892, GETTYSBURG COMPILER (Gettysburg, PA), pg. 1, col. 8: "That's what!" exclaimed the youth, heartily. "She's the best gal in our country, and I've had the pick an' choice of all of 'em. There isn't one of 'em that wouldn't marry me quicker her wink, but this is my choice of the whole ball of wax." 12 November 1911, INDIANAPOLIS STAR, pg. 16, col. 8: And the W. C. T. U. proposed to put the kibosh on the whole ball of wax. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- LIFE OF RILEY Nothing great here. Indianapolis Star - 10/8/1911 ...William M. Hersehell read a sketch on tlie LIFE OF RILEY. and Mrs. M. M. House sang :i.....skeicher. Hev talk dealt with the LIFE OF the Japanese, and she told OF the.....The program consisted OF readings from RILEY. and Mrs. Ernest M. Carter and Mrs.....Helen Hyde, the famous portrayer OF child, LIFE OF Japan. The Fortnightly Literary Club.. Indianapolis, Indiana Sunday, October 08, 1911 773 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SALT WATER TAFFY OED has 1894. Massachusetts has the "original Atlantic City" salt water taffy? 9 September 1893, DAILY NORTHWESTERN (Oshkosh, Wisconsin), pg. I took the whole crowd bathing in the morning, sailing and fishing in the afternoon, then merry-go-rounds, salt water taffy, tin-types, pier, switchback, creamy soda water, conches, and heaven only knows what. 22 December 1893, LOWELL DAILY SUN (Lowell, Massachusetts), pg. 3?, col. 7: WE ARE THE ORIGINATORS OF THE FAMOUS ATLANTIC CITY _Salt Water Taffy_ ALL OTHERS ARE SIMPLY IMITATORS. CARAMELS And Home Made Candies Strictly Pure and always Fresh. Made expressly for retail trade only. 42 CENTRAL STREET (No business name?--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- PEANUT GALLERY DARE also has 1876. The Augusta (GA) Archives didn't help. For any peanut person out there. 10 June 1876, MOUNTAIN DEMOCRAT (Placerville, California), pg. 2, col. 1: As a bid for applause from the political pit and peanut gallery it was a masterpiece. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 26 09:16:46 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 04:16:46 EST Subject: Jelly Beans (1894); Jezebel Sauce (1967); Chicken a la King (1906) Message-ID: JELLY BEANS I had posted to 1896. I think these cites were added somewhat recently. Notice that they're all out west. Approximately 378 Results Documents 1 - 10 for Search term(s) "jelly beans"+AND+range:1753-1894 Search took 0.703125 seconds. Helena Independent - 2/6/1894 ...STICKS FOR 1 FRESH CARAMELS, PCS POUND, JELLY BEANS, 2 POUNDS, FISH. WEHKVE THE.. Helena, Montana Tuesday, February 06, 1894 527 k Helena Independent - 1/13/1894 ...Crean Marshmallows, Ib. Mixed stick, Ib. JELLY BEANS, Ib...... Spa'iisn Poannts, Ib.. Helena, Montana Saturday, January 13, 1894 468 k (This appears to be the first citation, so I checked it out. You get page 4. However, the "Available Publication Pages" on top shows 1-14, with page 5 highlighted. "Jelly beans" is NOT on page 4. "Jelly beans" is across the margin, on another page. However, that other page is not page 5 and it's not page 3. I don't have the time right now to check out all fourteen pages--ed.) Helena Independent - 2/14/1894 ...DOZEN STICKS FOR FRESH CARAMELS, PER POUND, JELLY BEANS, 2 POUNDS, FISH. WEHAVE THE.. Helena, Montana Wednesday, February 14, 1894 518 k Helena Independent - 3/28/1894 ...POUND 76 STICKS OF CANDY FOR 2 POUNDS OF JELLY BEANS 2POUNDSOF MINT LOZENOES FINE.. Helena, Montana Wednesday, March 28, 1894 531 k Mountain Democrat - 6/23/1894 ...explorer, has returned to New York. Eating JELLY BEANS is the alleged cause of the death.. Placerville, California Saturday, June 23, 1894 749 k Helena Independent - 3/24/1894 ...POUND 76 STICKS OF CANDY FOR 2 POUNDS OF JELLY BEANS 2 POUNDS MINT LOZENOES 10 CEDE MS.. Helena, Montana Saturday, March 24, 1894 506 k Helena Independent - 2/10/1894 ...d to DOZEN STICKS FOR CARAMELS, PER POUND, JELLY BEANS, 2 POUNDS, FISH. THE LARGEST MENT.. Helena, Montana Saturday, February 10, 1894 520 k Helena Independent - 1/18/1894 ...Ib. 2oc French mixed candy, Ib. loc JELLY BEANS, Ib. loc To the economical smoker.. Helena, Montana Thursday, January 18, 1894 465 k Helena Independent - 2/8/1894 ...DOZEN STICKS FOR FRESH CARAMELS, PER POUND, JELLY BEANS, 2 POUNDS, FISH. WEHAVETHELAROEST.. Helena, Montana Thursday, February 08, 1894 527 k Helena Independent - 3/26/1894 ...Chlocne 75 STICKS OF CANDY FOR 2 POUNDS OF JELLY BEANS 2 POUNDS OF MINT LOZENOCS FINE.. Helena, Montana Monday, March 26, 1894 529 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- JEZEBEL SAUCE Patricia Bunning Stevens's RARE BITS (1998) has "Jezebel sauce" on page 157: "Even the good cooks of nineteenth-century America were not particularly noted for their sauces. The one fiery exception is Jezebel Sauce, long a favorite in the Old South." "Jezebel Sauce" is not in DARE. It's not in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK. The databases didn't turn up much. The AUGUSTA CHRONICLE (GA) didn't have even one hit. Newspaperarchive.com has just one hit: Gettysburg Times - 12/22/1967 ...It cioes not have to be cooked on the ham. JEZEBEL SAUCE 1 jar pineapple preserve.J. jar.....found an old Sou thorn recipe for i the SAUCE if you insist t> that's genuinely.....the and return u> nil'.' time while The SAUCE can be prepared anytime and.....this dinner. Or, if you prefer, cranberry' SAUCE. This can be bought in the jelly or.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Friday, December 22, 1967 593 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CHICKEN A LA KING See the "William King" obituary in the ADS-L archives. These are slightly earlier cites for the dish. The new Newspaperarchive.com search makes things easier. Caution: do not put Jezebel Sauce on your Chicken a la King. Massillon Independent - 12/24/1906 ...lome At Pompl on LAkes, N. J. CHICKEN A LA KING. Recipe From One of Sew York's.....And. Allow it to, cook A minute. CHICKEN A. lA KING is. usuAlly served in A chAfing dish.....of the big populAr [hotels of New York 5s CHICKEN A lA -kiug. The -recipe, As given by.....smAll pieces the white meAt of A cold roA st CHICKEN. MAke A sAuce with two tAblespooffuls.. Massillon, Ohio Monday, December 24, 1906 866 k Pg. 2?, col. 3: _CHICKEN A LA KING._ _Recipe From One of New York's Big Popular Hotels._ A favorite dish served in one of the big popular hotels of New York is chicken a la king. The recipe, as given by the chef of the fashionable establishment, is as follows: Cut into small pieces the white meat of a cold roast chicken. Make a sauce with two tablespoonfuls of butter in a saucepan over the fire. When the butter melts stir in two heaping tablespoonfuls of flour which has been well sifted. When the flour and butter are mixed to a cream pour in slowly a pint of hot milk, stirring constantly to keep from lumping. Allow the sauce to boil up once, then add a teaspoonful of grated onion, a teaspoonful of salt and the yolks of two eggs. Stir them briskly through the sauce, add two truffles and two mushrooms cut in small pieces and fried lightly in butter, one sweet green pepper cut in shreds after seeds have been removed and a generous tablespoonful of capers chopped and just a suggestion of grated nutmeg. Last of all, add the chicken, stir all together and allow it to cook a minute. Chicken a la king is usually served in a chafing dish--New York Post. Atlanta Constitution - 6/17/1910 ...Onions MAitre Hotel PotAtoes CHICKEN A lA KING on ToAst RoAst Prime Ribs of Beef An.....New Corn on Cob I New English PeAs SAlAd A lA WilliAms New PeAch Pie A lA Mode VAnillA.....fAre for the round limit Most vermont route lA viA CincinnAti ROUTEN to ClevelAnd LAke.....on or TrAveling PAumier Poor nAntel lA Pryor Streett AtlAntA GRADY HOSPITAL.. Atlanta, Georgia Friday, June 17, 1910 371 k Iowa Recorder - 12/21/1910 ...hAve A very decent wAy of fixing CHICKEN A lA KING. Hotchkiss hAd dsjpsrted.....tne I replied, in the sAme wAy. When the CHICKEN cAme, I still found myself gAzing now.....m A In blue. The trAin wrecked. BlAkeley lA rescued from the burningcAr by the girl In.....CArpenter, Ogden, S. C. Ill-MAnnered CHICKEN. Little Robert, 3 yeArs of Age, went.. Greene, Iowa Wednesday, December 21, 1910 735 k Atlanta Constitution - 2/13/1910 ...A lA Angling for A plAce in your CHICKEN A lA KING I But fit for A Queets Absinthe To.....the meeting will be A tAlk by Hicks on It lA A subject which A ppeAls to the womAn of.....on TuesdAy And FebruAry IS And in tim first lA Invited to come And luke their There will.....on business lAst Bliss Rosebud Gillie of lA the guest of In Mr And JAmes who hAve.. Atlanta, Georgia Sunday, February 13, 1910 509 k Evening Telegram - 5/20/1909 ...we let him if I'll hAve some CHICKEN-A-lA KING. he sAid. All out of A nswered the.....HENRIETTA Mr. r.r.d Mrs. were :TI ElyiiA lA.-t ThursdAy shopping. Bom, to .Mr. And Mrs.....nowAdAys music wltfe meAls. Absolutely, lA order to get servAnts to stAy. hAd to pAt.. Elyria, Ohio Thursday, May 20, 1909 750 k (This appears to be 1919, not 1909--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CLUB SANDWICH Just a re-check, for anyone interested in "sandwiches." Trenton Evening Times - 4/26/1897 ...refreshments could not be served with CLUB SANDWICHES. It seems that the board of.....sincerest thanks to th Fin, For add Feather CLUB, who har gent quite a number of birds.....the. custom of selling. drinks with SANDWICHES ane this was done en Saturday. "We.. Trenton, New Jersey Monday, April 26, 1897 834 k Indiana Progress - 6/17/1886 ...3, between the Magentas and some foreign CLUB. SANDWICHES and coffee can lie had next.....there was left in it. The Magenta base ball CLUB should organize at once und proceed to.....three gallons at a milking. Our lawn-tennis CLUB is anxious to try their skill against.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, June 17, 1886 849 k From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 26 16:14:17 2003 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 11:14:17 -0500 Subject: Gets Late Early; Reggie=Registration; beta.newspaperarchive.com In-Reply-To: <200312260501.hBQ51Ik8007007@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: As always, I marvel at Barry's industriousness [can't use the simpler "industry", can we?], but a lot of his quotes from the beta Newspaper Archive were mangled more than somewhat; e.g., these excerpts from two of them: Decatur Daily Republican - 8/24/1880 ... to tbe deeUlon of the Democratic convention CITY DEPARTMENT. OHCAP 169 pieces American..... 10-dtf Tut funeral of the late J nines... Fort Wayne Daily Gazette - 7/22/1881 ...JS dtimaaUu 5 Thrse S .Persons leaving the CITY during the 9-tmrnef months can have the.... Barry, are your fingers getting THIS tangled, or were you stuck with a keyboard that had played host to a convention of cockroaches feasting on coffee spills and donut crumbs, or were you pasting copies of text OCR-ed from age-worn newspapers printed in irregular type from old fonts? -- Mark A. Mandel From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 26 16:17:56 2003 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 11:17:56 -0500 Subject: "jerry" in ADS-L Digest In-Reply-To: <200312260501.hBQ51Ik8007007@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: To quote Gerald Cohen from ADS-L Digest - 24 Dec 2003 to 25 Dec 2003 (#2003-359): Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 13:47:44 -0600 From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" Subject: "jerry" (aware); was: Re: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) LS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0gDQpGcm9tOiBBbWVyaWNhbiBEaWFsZWN0IFNvY2ll dHkgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIERvdWdsYXMgRy4gV2lsc29uIA0KU2VudDogVGh1IDEyLzI1LzIwMDMg ... and so on. Did this encryption appear just in the digest, or did it also happen in the individual post? And what did he *say*? -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Dec 26 16:36:33 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:36:33 -0600 Subject: "jerry" in ADS-L Digest--(third try) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark, A few moments ago I sent a message to ads-l in reply to your message below, but it's not turning up on my machine. Maybe the machine thinks the duplication of my message is somehow spam. Anyway, here's a third try now; this time I'll print the item as a quotation and maybe it will go through. Best. -- Gerald From Mark Mandel: >To quote Gerald Cohen from ADS-L Digest - 24 Dec 2003 to 25 Dec 2003 >(#2003-359): > >Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 13:47:44 -0600 >From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" >Subject: "jerry" (aware); was: Re: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) > >LS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0gDQpGcm9tOiBBbWVyaWNhbiBEaWFsZWN0IFNvY2ll >dHkgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIERvdWdsYXMgRy4gV2lsc29uIA0KU2VudDogVGh1IDEyLzI1LzIwMDMg > >... and so on. Did this encryption appear just in the digest, or did it >also happen in the individual post? And what did he *say*? > >-- Mark A. Mandel > Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania At 10:24 AM -0600 12/26/03, Gerald Cohen wrote: >Here's a second try (sent directly from my Macintosh; evidently when >I send messages via my wife's on-cable Gateway computer, some >recipients receive them in garbled form.) > >Gerald Cohen > > >Thread-Topic: Re: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) >Thread-Index: AcPLEaAT3Ra0EI07RUmDSiVdvK2xJAADGqMF >Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 13:47:44 -0600 >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >Sender: American Dialect Society >From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" >Subject: "jerry" (aware); was: Re: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Douglas G. Wilson >Sent: Thu 12/25/2003 12:04 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) > >Synonyms: "hep"; "wise"; "next"; "jerry". > >Whence "jerry"? Could it be "chary" [= "alert"]? > >****** > >I treated this item in my article "Jerry in Slang: 'A Watch'; >Aware'"; in : Gerald Leonard Cohen, _Studies in Slang_, part V, >(Frankfurt a. M: Peter Lang), 1997, pp. 143-146. The gist of the >answer is that we start with "Jerry-come-tumble" (= a tumbler), >which by a word-play on cant "tumble" (to understand) and shortening >to just "jerry" becomes "jerry" (aware). > > Partridge's 1968 _Dictionary of the Underworld_ comes as close >as possible to the answer without actually getting it, by suggesting >that "jerry" (aware) might have come from "jerrycummumble." >Partridge should have selected "Jerry-come-tumble." > > A look at OED shows: "Jerry-come-tumble," "Jerry-go-nimble" (a >tumbler, an antic, a performer (equestrian or other)) and >"Jerrycummumble,"" Jerrymumble" (to shake or tumble about). > > As for the origin of "Jerry-come-tumble," the first quote in >OED indicates that the tumbling was the fall in a hanging: 1823 >SCOTT. _Quentin D. xiv, "I [A hangman] never quarrel with my >customers--my jerry-come-tumbles, my merry dancers." > >Gerald Cohen From dsgood at VISI.COM Fri Dec 26 16:44:24 2003 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:44:24 -0600 Subject: "jerry" in ADS-L Digest In-Reply-To: <20031226161800.AE8FA588E@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Mark A. Mandel wrote: > To quote Gerald Cohen from ADS-L Digest - 24 Dec 2003 to 25 Dec 2003 > (#2003-359): > > Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 13:47:44 -0600 > From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: "jerry" (aware); was: Re: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) > > LS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0gDQpGcm9tOiBBbWVyaWNhbiBEaWFsZWN0IFNvY2ll > dHkgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIERvdWdsYXMgRy4gV2lsc29uIA0KU2VudDogVGh1IDEyLzI1LzIwMDMg > > ... and so on. Did this encryption appear just in the digest, or did it > also happen in the individual post? It was also in the individual post. And what did he *say*? > > -- Mark A. Mandel > Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania > > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 26 18:27:56 2003 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:27:56 -0800 Subject: plurals as first elements of compounds Message-ID: there's a fair amount of literature on english N+N compounds in which the first element is plural ("abstracts committee"). today's New York Times (section D, "Escapes") has one article just packed with examples: "Finding New Life By Selling the Old" by Anne Glusker, about towns that have become centers for the sale of antiques; it starts on p. D1 and continues on p. D3 (with two sidebar stories). although it does cite one shop with "antique" as the first element in its name -- the Antique Depot in Elliccott City, Md. -- *all* the other occurrences of relevant compounds have "antiques" instead (perhaps to avoid a potential ambiguity involving the adjective "antique" 'old'). plenty of occurrences of "antiques store(s)" and "antiques shop(s)", plus "antiques towns" "antiques emporiums" "antiques buyers" "antiques center" "antiques dealers" "antiques haven" and even "antiques success story". remarkably consistent. i'd find "antique" possible in all of these, maybe even preferable in some. and i note that the local phone book has listings for shops called "Antique Arcade" "Antique Emporium" "Antique Market" "Antique Trove" and none for a shop with a N+N compound name with "Antiques" as the first element. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Dec 26 20:44:04 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 15:44:04 -0500 Subject: pail of tears Message-ID: No, that's not "vale of tears." In the NY Times last week, I saw another gem: Someone wrote an article that mentioned someone crying "a pail of tears." (Sorry, I always seem to recycle my newspapers before I remember to clip for ADS referencing.) Now, if the writer is a Northerner, I suppose the phrase makes sense, but I'm a Northerner too and I've never ever heard the common idiom phrased in this way. Has anyone else? And would this imply that one would also say "she cried a pailfull" or "his tears came down in pails"? "I'm going to cry me a river" is another matter, of course. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Dec 26 20:35:42 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 15:35:42 -0500 Subject: "Y'all" in Friday's New York Times In-Reply-To: <1d0.16a873d2.2d1ca0d8@aol.com> Message-ID: I don't disagree, but I guess I wasn't clear in my message. What Guy was referring to was the older distinction between thou/thee and ye/you. The interviewer clearly didn't get it and just moved on, but Guy was trying to justify 'y'all' as plural by linking it to a time when 'you' was only plural. And this reminds me of another puzzling comment from NPR last week: The interviewer of a country singer (can't recall her name, but she didn't sound authentic to me; I've known people here who think they "talk Appalachian," for example) said that if listeners wanted to hear her "sing in Middle English" they could go to npr.org for that day. I haven't looked it up, but I wonder if he meant mountain/Appalachian/Scots-flavored/hillbilly English? Kinda like Elizabethan, maybe? These historical eras are hard to keep straight, you know. At 03:21 PM 12/25/2003 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 11/29/03 12:00:48 PM, flanigan at OHIO.EDU writes: > ><< and it was clear he >didn't know what Guy Bailey was talking about when he said "'you' was >originally plural, you know" (or words to that effect). >> > >Most of us believe that Y'ALL still *IS* plural. Guy Bailey may have heard >pseudo-y'all from displaced crypto-Yankees, but that don't make it rahht. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 26 21:02:13 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 16:02:13 -0500 Subject: pail of tears In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20031226153701.011530e8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 3:44 PM -0500 12/26/03, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >No, that's not "vale of tears." In the NY Times last week, I saw another >gem: Someone wrote an article that mentioned someone crying "a pail of >tears." (Sorry, I always seem to recycle my newspapers before I remember >to clip for ADS referencing.) Now, if the writer is a Northerner, I >suppose the phrase makes sense, Bob Dylan's a Northerner (< Hibbing, Minnesota), and for him it's buckets: Buckets of rain, buckets of tears, Got all them buckets comin' out of my ears --of course "pails of tears" wouldn't have scanned as well. >but I'm a Northerner too and I've never >ever heard the common idiom phrased in this way. Which idiom? Bucket(s) of tears? I wasn't familiar with that before the Dylan song. And vale of tears (as in describing this world as a ___) is quite a different kettle o' fish. Or tears. > Has anyone else? And >would this imply that one would also say "she cried a pailfull" or "his >tears came down in pails"? I take "pail" or "bucket" to refer to the container filled by the tears, not the manner in which they fall, so no, they wouldn't come down in pails or buckets, just lots of drops, enough for (metaphorical) pailfuls. I suppose "she cried a pailful/bucketful" would be interpretable. L From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Dec 26 22:56:18 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 17:56:18 -0500 Subject: pail of tears In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yeah, but Dylan was always trying to sound Southern or Appalachian. As Trudgill pointed out, his "The times, they are a-changing" is a strange blend of standard and mountain; he pronounced the a-prefix as [e] and didn't change the -ng/[N] to [n]. So "them buckets" don't wash with me! Seriously though, I seem to recall "cried buckets" as the idiom we all grew up with even in Minnesota--and whether it was as container or droplets didn't seem to matter. But my memory is getting older and older. . . . At 04:02 PM 12/26/2003 -0500, you wrote: >At 3:44 PM -0500 12/26/03, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >>No, that's not "vale of tears." In the NY Times last week, I saw another >>gem: Someone wrote an article that mentioned someone crying "a pail of >>tears." (Sorry, I always seem to recycle my newspapers before I remember >>to clip for ADS referencing.) Now, if the writer is a Northerner, I >>suppose the phrase makes sense, > >Bob Dylan's a Northerner (< Hibbing, Minnesota), and for him it's buckets: > >Buckets of rain, buckets of tears, >Got all them buckets comin' out of my ears > >--of course "pails of tears" wouldn't have scanned as well. > >>but I'm a Northerner too and I've never >>ever heard the common idiom phrased in this way. > >Which idiom? Bucket(s) of tears? I wasn't familiar with that before >the Dylan song. And vale of tears (as in describing this world as a >___) is quite a different kettle o' fish. Or tears. > >> Has anyone else? And >>would this imply that one would also say "she cried a pailfull" or "his >>tears came down in pails"? > >I take "pail" or "bucket" to refer to the container filled by the >tears, not the manner in which they fall, so no, they wouldn't come >down in pails or buckets, just lots of drops, enough for >(metaphorical) pailfuls. I suppose "she cried a pailful/bucketful" >would be interpretable. > >L From dsgood at VISI.COM Sat Dec 27 00:11:21 2003 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 18:11:21 -0600 Subject: country singer stage dialect change Re: "Y'all" in Friday's New York Times In-Reply-To: <20031226204507.94B625A74@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Beverly Flanigan wrote: > And this reminds me of another puzzling comment from NPR last week: The > interviewer of a country singer (can't recall her name, but she didn't > sound authentic to me; I've known people here who think they "talk > Appalachian," for example) said that if listeners wanted to hear her "sing > in Middle English" they could go to npr.org for that day. I haven't looked > it up, but I wonder if he meant > mountain/Appalachian/Scots-flavored/hillbilly English? Kinda like > Elizabethan, maybe? These historical eras are hard to keep straight, you know. Something I keep meaning to ask about country music: In recordings from the 1920s, almost all country singers sound Southern/Lower South to my ear. (Exception -- one singer with a definite London accent singing an English music-hall song: "My Old Dutch." The music company representative who recorded him might not have noticed the difference from the way the singer's neighbors talked/sang. Or, more likely, didn't care.) This continues up through the 1940s. And then, in the 1960s and later, the singers sound South Midlands/Upper South. Or rather, a stage version of that dialect. (I suspect that performers who have that as their native dialect have to learn to use the country music version.) If I'm correct about this -- what happened to bring about this change? If I'm not correct -- what/how have I misheard? From dsgood at VISI.COM Sat Dec 27 00:15:25 2003 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 18:15:25 -0600 Subject: pail of tears In-Reply-To: <20031226210208.A4C8A5A54@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > At 3:44 PM -0500 12/26/03, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >>No, that's not "vale of tears." In the NY Times last week, I saw another >>gem: Someone wrote an article that mentioned someone crying "a pail of >>tears." (Sorry, I always seem to recycle my newspapers before I remember >>to clip for ADS referencing.) Now, if the writer is a Northerner, I >>suppose the phrase makes sense, > > > Bob Dylan's a Northerner (< Hibbing, Minnesota), and for him it's buckets: > > Buckets of rain, buckets of tears, > Got all them buckets comin' out of my ears > > --of course "pails of tears" wouldn't have scanned as well. But he's put a lot of work into not sounding like a Northerner. Despite coming from "So far north that Moosehead isn't a beer, it's a misdemeanor". (Sorry; I can't recall which Twin Cities comedian said that.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 27 02:14:56 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 21:14:56 EST Subject: WOTY commercialized by yourdictionary.com (now on Reuters) Message-ID: WOTY has been cheapened by yourdictionary.com. The commercial web site has chosen its "Words of 2003." A press release was sent to the media. Now, yourdictionary.com has its free ad--"press release"--on Reuters. It was picked up in today's NEW YORK POST. What hurts is that this schlock crowds out real, non-profit organizations like the American Dialect Society. In January, people will think: "Didn't I see that about a week ago?" Here's the story, followed by some other year-end stuff: http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/14512.htm 'EMBEDDED' WINNER IN A WAR OF WORDS December 26, 2003 -- LOS ANGELES - A Web site specializing in language named what it called the top word, phrase and name of the year yesterday, picking them all from the war in Iraq. "Embedded," as in the reporters assigned to accompany military units during the war, beat out "blog" and "SARS" as the top word of 2003, Web site yourDictionary.com said. "Embedded was the best word to distill the events of an extraordinary year into eight simple letters," said Paul JJ Payack, president of YourDictionary.com. "Shock and awe," the phrase the U.S. military used to describe the type of campaign it would wage in Iraq, topped other Iraq-related terms like "weapons of mass destruction" and "spider hole" as the top phrase of 2003. The name most on people's lips during the year was fallen Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. He beat out "Ahh-nold" (as in California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger) and "W." (as in President Bush). The site's lists are created by taking nominations from users around the world and then having them judged by "professional wordsmiths." http://c1.zedo.com/ads2/f/32261/3853/172/0/162000034/162000034/0/162/33/zz-V1- accuquote_gif_1103_gray.html The Year in Catch-Phrases Bennifer.. Metrosexual... The Governator... "TiVo It"... Punk'd... Friendster... Go Bags... SARS... Push Presents... Embedded reporters... Shock and Awe... War blog... Most-Wanted Cards... http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=857&ncid=757&e=10& u=/nm/20031219/od_uk_nm/oukoe_germany_phrase Germans pick "old Europe" as phrase of year Fri Dec 19,12:23 PM ET BERLIN (Reuters) - "Old Europe" -- a term U.S. Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld used to disparage Germany and France for resisting war in Iraq-- has been named phrase of the year in Germany by a panel of language experts From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 27 09:36:10 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 04:36:10 EST Subject: Day Late & Dollar Short (1939) Message-ID: Google has 13,800 hits and Google Groups has 10,500 hits for "day late and a dollar short." It was popularized recently by the Terry McMillan book A DAY LATE AND A DOLLAR SHORT (2001). Amazon.com has 54,000 hits!? I don't know what Fred Shapiro has. Many hits are from 1958 on, but it was at least used in the Depression of the 1930s. I didn't see it on American Memory (the WPA interviews from the 1930s are there). "A day late and a dollar short" is sometimes said to be a Southern expression, but Augusta Archives didn't have anything early. WorldCat is handy right now for a song title search. (ANCESTRY.COM/NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) 3 March 1939, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville, Illinois), pg. 6, col. 1 (COMICS): ( OUT OUR WAY by WiLLIAMS. The comic is signed J. R. WIlliams. From a word balloon--ed.) NO, HE'S IN THE SAME FIX AS TH' REST OF US--IT'S CALLED PROGRESS...I JUST LEARN ABOUT HALF THE TRAFFIC RULES AN' THEY CHANGE 'EM--YOU CAN'T BEAT PROGRESS--YOU'LL ALWAYS BE A DAY LATE AN' A DOLLAR SHORT. (LIBRARY OF CONGRESS) Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Brief Description: Squibb, Gerald A. A day late and a dollar short. Boston, Bruce Humphries [1958] 196 p. 22 cm. Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Brief Description: Van Cleve, Spike. A day late and a dollar short / by Spike Van Cleve ; introduction by A.B. Guthrie, Jr. 1st ed. Kansas City, Mo. : Lowell Press, c1982. xii, 282 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Brief Description: McMillan, Terry. A day late and a dollar short / Terry McMillan. New York : Viking, 2001. 431 p. ; 25 cm. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 27 10:00:32 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 05:00:32 EST Subject: Gets Late Early (Newspaperarchive.com thumbnails) Message-ID: In that last post, I had meant that WorldCat is NOT available to me at my home at this hour. NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM The mangled thumbnails were in the original. I liked that the "thumbnails" provided the publications, dates, and the keywords ("Windy City," for example). But, yes, some are seriously mangled. Nevertheless, it's a vast improvement over just dates. Then you'd have to wait maybe five minutes to download something that's often totally useless. I'm impressed that on "a day late and a dollar short" I pulled a citation from the comics. The comics are a great source of Americanisms. Not only that, but I got the citation even though "an'" was used for "and." I'm working full-time now (minus weekends and New Year's) until my January 4th Air France flight to West Africa gets blown up by international terrorists, but I'll try to finish a journal article on these new full-text newspaper archives before I leave. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 27 11:18:14 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 06:18:14 EST Subject: Not Chopped Liver (1947); Texas Toast (1960); Ants on a Log (1983) Message-ID: NOT CHOPPED LIVER On 9 August 2002, Michael Quinion--a brilliant OED contributor and web wordsmith who is not chopped liver--asked this: Here's one for you to chew on. Subscribers have suddenly started toask me about the origins of "what am I, chopped liver?". (Could a quiz have featured it recently?) I've done the obvious research, but can't find even the slightest clue as to why this odd expression could have come about. Any ideas, anyone? It's 1954 in the HDAS, but there's better. 5 April 1947, GETTYSBURG TIMES (PA), pg. 3, col. 1: _GRAZIANO ASKS_ _OPPORTUNITY_ _TO MEET ZALE_ By SID FEDER New York, April 3 (AP)--(...) The bash boulevardiers insist you could put on the second go-round of that hair-raiser in Moose Jaw, Sask., or Elephant Butte, N. M., and still draw a half-a-million dollars, which is not, as the boys say, chopped liver. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- TEXAS TOAST I don't know what the next DARE will have....If I'm not chopped liver, I'm toast. 7 November 1960, GREAT BEND DAILY TRIBUNE (Great Bend, Kansas), pg.5, col. 3 (Safeway ad): _Sklylark Bread_ 20-oz. loaf 27c Texas Style Thick Sliced White Sandwich loaf Perfect for Texas Toast ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ANTS ON A LOG I've posted 1960 for "bugs on a log." I thought I'd do better for "ants," but this is the best that's here. 4 May 1983, LETHBRIDGE HERALD (Canada), pg. C2, col. 8: Canadian Western Natural Gas Company _Blue Flame Kitchen_ Tested recipes (...) ANTS ON A LOG Spread celery sticks with peanut butter, or cheese whiz. Sprinkle with a few raisins and serve. From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sat Dec 27 11:45:02 2003 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:45:02 -0000 Subject: Not Chopped Liver (1947); Texas Toast (1960); Ants on a Log (1983) In-Reply-To: <11c.29cf6b04.2d1ec476@aol.com> Message-ID: > On 9 August 2002, Michael Quinion--a brilliant OED contributor and web > wordsmith who is not chopped liver--asked this: > It's 1954 in the HDAS, but there's better. Thanks! But your recent antedating of "ball of wax" has destroyed a nice theory I had about it. See the last para of http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-who5.htm Such is etymology ... -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 27 12:51:08 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 07:51:08 EST Subject: Canned Willie (1901); Canned Cow (1911) Message-ID: CANNED WILLIE Still earlier for "Willie," or corned beef hash in a can. I don't know what the HDAS has, but it has 1909 for "Bill." 8 October 1901, NEWARK DAILY ADVOCATE (Newark, Ohio), pg. 4, col. 1: _LETTER_ _From David R. Williams Formerly of_ _Newark, Now Corporal in the U._ _S. Cavalry._ (...) Fort Keogh, Mont., Sept. 28 (...) We had no sickness on our trip, but had a hard time to get enough hard tack and (Col. 2--ed.) canned willie, as it is called here; ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CANNED COW The HDAS has 1925 for "canned condensed milk." The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG doesn't have a (canned) cow. 29 August 1911, STEVENS POINT DAILY JOURNAL (Stevens Point, Wisconsin), pg. 3?, col. 3: "If you fellers has got airy milk and sugar 'n' will pass out some coffee with 'em, I'll be mighty glad yer come. Hog and hominy's all right for a spell, but it gets sickenin'. Got er plug o' terbaccy?" Not only did Frank get out the canned cow and sugar, but he made biscuits in the Dutch oven and the eyes of the hunters fairly glistened at visions of the feast. (The same article is in the SHEBOYGAN PRESS, 13 September 1911--ed.) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 14:33:20 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 09:33:20 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Intellectual Property" In-Reply-To: <200312271118.hBRBIUI28555@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: intellectual property (OED 1845) 1807-8 _The Medical Repository of Original Essays and Intelligence_ XI. 303 (heading) New-England Association in favour of Inventors and Discoverers, and particularly for the Protection of intellectual Property. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From douglas at NB.NET Sat Dec 27 14:46:50 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 09:46:50 -0500 Subject: Not Chopped Liver (1947); Texas Toast (1960); Ants on a Log (1983) In-Reply-To: <3FED70BE.7898.AFEBD3@localhost> Message-ID: >But your recent antedating of "ball of wax" has destroyed a nice >theory I had about it. My default hypothesis would be that "ball of wax" in this sense originated as an 'intentional malapropism' for "bailiwick". This would be analogous to (and conceivably the model for?) "[mind your own] beeswax" for "business". It would seem that "ball o' wax" was available early enough to be picked up for the malapropism (with the meaning "shoemaker" ... although the meaning -- as with "beeswax" -- is presumably of no significance). No etymological legend about balls of wax is required IMHO. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 27 15:37:14 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:37:14 EST Subject: Dollars to Doughnuts (1876); Location Location Location (1960); Twin Cities Message-ID: DOLLARS TO DOUGHNUTS I had found 1886. 11 March 1876, DAILY NEVADA STATE JOURNAL, pg. 2?, col. 4: HALF FARE.--Several Benoites took a vantage of the half fare tickets offered to those who were to attend the ball given by the railroad boys at Carson last night, and attended it. It's dollars to doughnuts all enjoyed themselves. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ALL THAT JAZZ The song "All That Jazz" is in musical CHICAGO. The setting is supposed to be the 1920s, but the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG gives "all that jazz" from the 1950s. I couldn't do better. 4 February 1946, BERKSHIRE EVENING EAGLE (Pittsfield, Mass.), pg. 10, col. 6: Especially the musical programs. If only more classic instead all that jazz was played. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- DELHI BELLY I've been re-checking for diarrhea. This is not the earliest "Delhi belly," but it's close to it. (See the ADS-L archives for the idiot who went to India, then checked the CBI ROUNDUP in the Library of Congress.) 5 February 1943, SHEBOYGAN PRESS (Sheboygan, Wisconsin), pg. 3, col. 5: "There is another fever that is going around. The British call it 'dinghy'. Oh yes, there are a lot of things that a guy can get out here, 'prickly heat', 'Bengal rot', 'dobies itch', 'Delhi belly', and ringworm. Prickly heat are smal;l blisters that come out when it is hot; Bengal rot is a ringworm infection; dobies itch is a ringworm infection from fresh laundry (a 'dobie' is a laundryman); and Delhi belly is the same as diarrhea." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION A good test of the search engine. I also tried "boola boola" and "boula boula." 4 May 1960, IOWA CITY PRESS CITIZEN, pg. 23, col. 2: LOCATION! LOCATION! Location! A famous realtor once said the three most important features of a home are its location. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- TWIN CITIES (continued) Another old request from the archives. Only the 10-19-1883 citation appears to involve Minneapolis and St. Paul. Oshkosh Northwestern - 11/21/1883 ...he TWIN City Newt, ever alert to keep tbe ''TWIN CITIES" up with the record, comes out.....a formal expression of thanks to the CITIES of Ncenuh, Mcnasha, Fond du I.ac.....to tho tiro departments of each of tho CITIES named, anil to presidents and general.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Wednesday, November 21, 1883 809 k Bismarck Tribune - 10/19/1883 ...almost overwhelming; outburst in the TWIN CITIES of St. Paul and Minneapolis, it.....in expressing to the inhabitants of the CITIES and towns the North Pacific, and to.. Bismarck, North Dakota Friday, October 19, 1883 873 k Oshkosh Northwestern - 11/17/1882 ...and well known in the vicinity of the TWIN CITIES. They express the intention of.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Friday, November 17, 1882 1041 k New York Times - 2/27/1860 ...these wonder not that are solicitous of the TWIN CITIES, It the puhUc the consequent.....tor o[ a taw cremes m Heallh for the CITIES of Broeklyn, (a dodging of the.. New York, New York Monday, February 27, 1860 779 k Oshkosh Northwestern - 9/21/1883 ...rnu between Menasbn. Our best people of tho TWIN CITIES did not attend tho Fair on.....for Wausmi aud would be a credit to many CITIES much larger than this. Several of our.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Friday, September 21, 1883 784 k Oshkosh Northwestern - 5/26/1883 ...Day will be obseivedas usual by the TWIN CITIES, which means everybody will torn.....Items of Interest from tbe Junior TWIN City. Bnlldlng Improvements, Personal.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Saturday, May 26, 1883 847 k Oshkosh Daily Northwestern - 6/21/1879 ...mills and other p'aces of industry in tbe TWIN CITIES of Lake language canoot fuHy.....drives about the flourishing maoufacturlng CITIES of Xeenah and Menasha and nimbly.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Saturday, June 21, 1879 957 k Bismarck Tri Weekly Tribune - 2/25/1878 ...beat anything we have seen this side of the TWIN CITIES of Over Mr Kelt's shining face in.. Bismarck, North Dakota Monday, February 25, 1878 575 k Oshkosh Daily Northwestern - 6/20/1879 ...from tbe drive about j Atwoud, the TWIN CITIES, the visit to the paper Executive.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Friday, June 20, 1879 896 k From orinkh at CARR.ORG Sat Dec 27 15:36:29 2003 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:36:29 -0500 Subject: Texas Toast (1960) Message-ID: Concerning Texas Toast: I remember it was an item on the menu at a restaurant (was it a small chain?) called the "Denver Drumstick" (in Denver CO) in the late 1950s. Which makes me wonder, are there any historical menus about, and would these be useful for antedating some food terms? Orin Hargraves From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Sat Dec 27 16:03:28 2003 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:03:28 EST Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust Message-ID: The NY Times today in an article on junior high students said that the coolest boys do not do anything that could be considered girlish, like say "eyew"-- is this the way we want to spell that? And anyway, who gets to choose? Some editor at the NY Times? Maybe along with the WOTY announcements, this year the ADS should come out with an official recommendation for this expression. I think I might favor something more like ee-yoo, to make it clearer what the onset is. And by the way--is this a new phoneme for Americans? The only example in its class? Dale Coye The College of NJ From preston at MSU.EDU Sat Dec 27 16:07:21 2003 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:07:21 -0500 Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust In-Reply-To: <13.2677579e.2d1f0750@aol.com> Message-ID: >Don't forget the considerable fronting of the last vocalic element, >particualarly noticable in the group under discussion. Makes the >spelling all that much harder. I confess not to understand the phoneme part of this comment. dInIs >The NY Times today in an article on junior high students said that the >coolest boys do not do anything that could be considered girlish, >like say "eyew"-- >is this the way we want to spell that? And anyway, who gets to choose? Some >editor at the NY Times? Maybe along with the WOTY announcements, this year the >ADS should come out with an official recommendation for this expression. I >think I might favor something more like ee-yoo, to make it clearer what the >onset is. And by the way--is this a new phoneme for Americans? The only >example in its class? > >Dale Coye >The College of NJ -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Sat Dec 27 16:19:38 2003 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:19:38 EST Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust Message-ID: Abot the phoneme: I was half-jokingly speculating about the possibility of analyzing this as a vowel diphthong /iu/, that would take its place beside /ou/, /au/, and /Uu/. Dale Coye The College of NJ From douglas at NB.NET Sat Dec 27 16:49:51 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:49:51 -0500 Subject: "Whole Ball of Wax" (1882) In-Reply-To: <154.2a902682.2d1d2b6f@aol.com> Message-ID: "Atlanta Constitution", 25 Apr. 1882: p. 4, col.4: "Look Out For Him" (attrib. "Cincinnati Enquirer"): ---------- <> ---------- -- Doug Wilson From debaron at UIUC.EDU Sat Dec 27 16:57:18 2003 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:57:18 -0600 Subject: word of the year Message-ID: As some ADS-ers make their way to Boston for the annual meeting and the annual election of the word of the year, I thought that since I can't make it-yet again-I'd send along my comments on woty for your information. Best, Dennis The Word of the Year, 2003 by Dennis Baron I am pleased to announce my choice for word of the year for 2003. WOTY, the Word of the Year, is not as glamorous as the Oscars, not as cutthroat as the Booker, not at silly as the Daytime Emmys. There's no money attached to the word of the year, no gold statuette or platinum CD, no certificate suitable for framing. The word of the year may not even rate a dictionary appearance. Nonetheless, competition is fierce, for the word of the year reflects the state of the language and, by extension, the state of the world. Last year, the war in Iraq generated the word of the year: weapons of mass destruction (phrases may also win). But since there were no weapons of mass destruction, this year's entries from Iraq-Saddamize, Iraqification, and roadside bomb-have had their contender status downgraded from orange to yellow. Spider hole-the excavation where Saddam Hussein was found hiding-might have had a chance for word of the year, but since it first appeared in World War II, it can only enter in the category "best revival." It looks like Iraq won't be the source of this year's word of the year unless someone can figure out how to use Halliburton as a verb. The world of gender produced some good candidates for word of the year. The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court thrust gay marriage onto the national consciousness in November when it decided that same-sex partners could not be excluded from the benefits, legal, conjugal, and taxable, that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts affords to married couples. Gay marriage is controversial enough that conservatives want to amend the U.S. Constitution to ban it. Less likely to raise hackles is another WOTY possible, metrosexual, an urban straight male who is unashamedly into fashion, food, and personal grooming. Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean acknowledged his metrosexuality, but later backed away from the term, claiming he wasn't sure what it meant. Perhaps the most successful gender phrase of the year has been queer eye, from the Bravo cable network show "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy," in which a group of five gay men turn a volunteer Oscar Madison into a metrosexual. So far there have been no threats from the right to make queer eye unconstitutional, though a group of fashion-challenged gays is suing in Massachusetts for equal access to makeovers. That brings us to the winner, this year's word of the year. It's a phrase that's been lurking in the background for over a decade, but like a film that opens on Christmas so that it can make the Oscar deadline, this phrase suddenly hit everyone's lips on December 22: it's mad cow. The radio announced news of the first U.S. cow to test positive for bovine spongiform encephalopathy just as I was dishing up a nice sesame ginger beef stir fry. The sauce had just the right amount of sherry, lots of fresh shaved ginger, roasted sesame seeds, some perky fresh-squeezed lime, crisp straw mushrooms, whole baby corn, and the thinnest slices of bully American beef, all on a bed of wheat noodles which had been boiled for exactly three minutes and then flash fried. We talked about mad cow disease all through dinner. A friend, who was also cooking beef stir fry, called to say, "I told you so." When we finished eating, all that remained was the delicately-flavored beef, which we moved nervously around our plates with our chopsticks. As we sit down to holiday meals, business lunches, and midnight snacks, we face the daunting prospect that the anorexics had it right: there is nothing safe to eat. Poultry harbors salmonella, green onions give you hepatitis, fish is full of toxins, and pork inspires so much terror that two of the world's major religions ban it. It won't be long before scientists discover tofu fever. Once beef merely clogged our arteries. Now it can make holes in our brains. Beef may or may not continue to be what's for dinner in this country, but it's clear that mad cow, the word of the year for 2003, will dominate American dinner table conversation-and economic activity-for much of the new year as well. -- _______________ Dennis Baron office: 217-244-0568 Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 University of Illinois www.staff.uiuc.edu/~debaron 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, Illinois 61801 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 17:10:31 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 12:10:31 -0500 Subject: "Gentlemen, Start Your Engines" In-Reply-To: <200312271706.hBRH6Sk19584@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: I am trying to see how far back the phrase "gentlemen, start your engines" goes, and to determine whether any individual is said to be its coiner. I would welcome any information about the phrase's provenance; the earliest evidence I have so far is a 1955 book with the phrase as its title. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From simon at IPFW.EDU Sat Dec 27 20:10:00 2003 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:10:00 -0500 Subject: cell phone hang up Message-ID: dear all is there term other than "hang up" for what one does to end a call on a cell phone? thanks beth simon beth lee simon, ph.d. associate professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university fort wayne, in 46805-1499 us voice 260 481 6761; fax 260 481 6985 email simon at ipfw.edu From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Dec 27 20:15:06 2003 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:15:06 -0500 Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust In-Reply-To: <9.1f4e903e.2d1f0b1a@aol.com> Message-ID: >Don't some dialects (not mine) already have one? dInIs >Abot the phoneme: I was half-jokingly speculating about the possibility of >analyzing this as a vowel diphthong /iu/, that would take its place beside >/ou/, /au/, and /Uu/. > >Dale Coye >The College of NJ From pds at VISI.COM Sat Dec 27 21:43:27 2003 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:43:27 -0600 Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust In-Reply-To: <20031227160348.BA4FE5EEA@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: My own spelling -- eeugh! -- comes from I know not where. FWIW: Google just gave me 1532 hits for "eyew", but most of them were not for the exclamation of disgust. "Eeugh" got 332 hits, and it seems that most are for the exclamation. --Tom Kysilko At 12/27/2003 11:03 AM -0500, Dale Coye wrote: >The NY Times today in an article on junior high students said that the >coolest boys do not do anything that could be considered girlish, like say >"eyew"-- >is this the way we want to spell that? >I might favor something more like ee-yoo Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 28 00:51:05 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:51:05 -0500 Subject: "All That Jazz" (1929) Message-ID: ALL THAT JAZZ From ProQuest. There's a 28-year gap here, though. Nothing in any other database is anywhere near this early. THE NEW WEEK'S BILLS; METROPOLITAN EARLE PALACE LITTLE THEATER THE STRAND FOX COLUMBIA By NELSON B. BELL.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 3, 1929. p. 16 (1 page): _FOX_ "GIRLS GONE WILD." A William Fox sound picture, featuring Sue Carol and Nick Stuart... ------------------- While there is some justification for the title--in a nice way--this picture is by no means so tawdry as its name implies. Not that it is any great shakes as drama, but combined with what threatened to be merely another exploitation of the recklessness of modern youth there is a bit of high-power police stuff that partially takes the curse off all that jazz. Bob Addie's Column . . . The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Sep 13, 1957. p. A19 (1 page) (I'll have to order a copy of GIRLS GONE WILD for research purposes--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ WHOLE BALL OF WAX Congratulations to Doug for "the whole ball of wax." I expect it to be in PUCK--if that project ever gets finished. Not all of the material on newspaperarchive.com is available for the new search engine. The 1882 citation just never came up. Also, I limit the years of a search, but still get all the years (to 2003). From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 28 01:23:50 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:23:50 -0500 Subject: "Gentlemen, start your engines" (1952) Message-ID: I am trying to see how far back the phrase "gentlemen, start your engines" goes, and to determine whether any individual is said to be its coiner. I would welcome any information about the phrase's provenance; the earliest evidence I have so far is a 1955 book with the phrase as its title. Fred Shapiro --------------------------------------------------------------- Wendy let me in I wanna be your friend I want to guard your dreams and visions Just wrap your legs 'round these velvet rims and strap your hands across my engines. --Bruce Springsteen, "Born to Run" 8 June 1952, NEVADA STATE JOURNAL, pg. 11, col. 2 (about the "Indianapolis Auto Race on Memorial Day"): About 9:25 a.m. cars were shoved from the pit area to their proper location on the track, and at 9:35 a.m. all cars were in place, the official photo was taken, and at 9:30 a.m. (Col. 3--ed.) starter Seth Klein said, "Gentlemen, start your engines." 7 May 1954, FREDERICK POST (Frederick, Maryland), pg. 17, col. 2 ("the 38th annual 500-mile race at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway"): Finally, the command: "Gentlemen, start your engines." From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Sun Dec 28 02:58:05 2003 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (Vida J Morkunas) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:58:05 -0800 Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust In-Reply-To: <13.2677579e.2d1f0750@aol.com> Message-ID: Here's what I think of NYT's spelling of that exclamation of disgust: eww! Vida. vidamorkunas at telus.net -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Dale Coye Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 8:03 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust The NY Times today in an article on junior high students said that the coolest boys do not do anything that could be considered girlish, like say "eyew"-- is this the way we want to spell that? And anyway, who gets to choose? Some editor at the NY Times? Maybe along with the WOTY announcements, this year the ADS should come out with an official recommendation for this expression. I think I might favor something more like ee-yoo, to make it clearer what the onset is. And by the way--is this a new phoneme for Americans? The only example in its class? Dale Coye The College of NJ From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Dec 28 03:54:02 2003 From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:54:02 -0800 Subject: Texas Toast (1960) In-Reply-To: <200312271538.hBRFcmf0011816@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: You'll find them in manuscripts collections. Also Bowling Green has a Popular History Collection, if I'm not mistaken. Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, Orin Hargraves wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Orin Hargraves > Subject: Re: Texas Toast (1960) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Concerning Texas Toast: I remember it was an item on the menu at a restaurant > (was it a small chain?) called the "Denver Drumstick" (in Denver CO) in the > late 1950s. Which makes me wonder, are there any historical menus about, and > would these be useful for antedating some food terms? > > Orin Hargraves > From douglas at NB.NET Sun Dec 28 04:14:01 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 23:14:01 -0500 Subject: Yards of ammo (1944) Message-ID: "Whole nine yards of ammunition"? It has been claimed that belted ammunition is/was NEVER referred to by belt length (i.e., by yardage). Of course "never" is a little bit too strong. From Ancestry.com: ---------- "Independent Record" (Helena MT), 29 Nov. 1944: p. 1, cols. 2-4: <> [Photo of four men feeding a long belt of what looks like .50-cal. ammo into an airplane: the visible part of the belt looks to be roughly six yards long; perhaps there is some more already fed into the plane --DW] <> ---------- Exactly the same piece is found in the "Reno Evening Gazette" (Reno NV), 28 Nov. 1944, p. 7. Since the text and photo are identical and neither paper gives attribution to another nor to a press agency or other source, I speculate that the caption was composed by some agency of the USAF and supplied along with the photo ... which would imply that "yards" was considered reasonable terminology for belted ammo within the USAF (although perhaps theoretically only in material for civilian consumption). Each round of .50-cal. is about 0.8 in. in diameter and weighs about 4 oz., I think. I would expect the typical belt to have roughly 400 rounds (this is the only number which I have found specifically cited in a US Government publication referring to the ammo load for a WW II era bomber's gun), thus (allowing for links) I would expect roughly 28-30 feet of belted ammo weighing a little over 100 pounds. The message here is that USAF belted .50-cal. WW II ammo was sometimes (maybe seldom, but sometimes) referred to in yards. I consider the ammo-belt story the most plausible of the 'usual' "whole nine yards" etymology stories ... although still not proven by any means. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 28 08:40:34 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 03:40:34 EST Subject: Jo Jo Potatoes (1963) Message-ID: CORRECTION: In the "Gentleman, start your engines" post and 1952 cite, the last time is probably "9:50," not "9:30." It was difficult to read. TEXAS TOAST: Thanks for the 1950s "Denver Drumstick" (Denver, CO) recollection. The NYPL and the N-YHS both have large menu collections, but mostly of the fancy dinners of the late 19th- and early 20th-centuries. The Los Angeles Public Library has put some menus online. Johnson & Wales University also has a menu collection that I'll check out when I have time. For chain restaurants (McDonald's), the company usually keeps records. OT: NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE OF THE MONTH, PART THREE: In Sunday's NEW YORK POST (www.nypost.com; also in the TIMES), 28 December 2003, pg. 5, is a full-page story: "Cab jumps curb, kills customer on East 57th." That's my block. In the past month: 1. There was a Guyana plane crash within 48 hours of my flight, for the same flight path. 2. There was a gas explosion at work, at a place I was standing just moments before. 3. A cab jumped the curb and killed someone on the sidewalk of my block. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- JO JO POTATOES Sam Clements posted "Jo Jo Potatoes" on 10 February 2003: I tried a search but didn't find anything. I was born in Danville, VA. and raised in Arlington VA. Lived in NC for 6years. And then I moved to Akron, OH. in 1972. Never heard the term untilI moved to Ohio.They have broasted chicken and "Jo Jo's" here. They're potato wedges,lightly breaded(sometimes) and deep fried. MUCH larger than "steak fries."Sometimes as big as taking a whole potato and quartering it lengthwise. Always still in the skin.Why the name "Jo Jo?" (or "jojo") The Newspaperarchive.com database is especially weak for the Northwest for this time period (1950s-present). These are the earliest "Jo-Jos." Maybe A& W has records/menus? 17 June 1963, MONROE COUNTY NEWS (Albion, Iowa), pg. 2, col. 1: Try FLAVOR-CRISP CHICKEN PRESSURE FRIED Includes chicken, cole slaw, Jo Jo potatoes, and roll _Carol's A&W_ 1 April 1967, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. 12?, col. 7 (ad): _Angelina's now offers_ _pressure fried chicken_ (...) This chicken, along with Jo-Jo potatoes, which are baking potatoes quartered and pressure cooked with the (Col. 8--ed.) chicken, makes a ready-to-eat meal. 15 April 1968, MONROE COUNTY NEWS (Albion, Iowa), pg. 3?, cols. 6-8: _Carol's A & W DRIVE-IN_ Jo Jo Potatoes...30c 25 September 1970, SHEBOYGAN PRESS (Sheboygan, Wisconsin), pg. 3, col. 4: 21-piece BARREL with 12 Jo-Jo potatoes, served 7-10 persons HERZIGER'S Restaurant 1213 Superior Ave. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 28 11:35:38 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 06:35:38 EST Subject: Lips Are Moving (1935) & Professional Courtesy (1949); Cosmopolitan (1994) Message-ID: LIPS ARE MOVING An old joke said of lawyers and politicians. How can you tell he's lying? His lips are moving. Fred Shapiro had posted this: I don't know whether this was first used about politicians or lawyers.The Oxford Dictionary of American Legal Quotations has the following:How can you tell if a lawyer is lying?His lips are moving.Los Angeles Times, 9 July 1986, at 3. Then, Fred Shapiro posted this: Here's some better information I found since my last posting. It's taken from the definitive work on lawyer jokes, an unpublished manuscript by Marc Galanter: "I was surprised to discover that this is a rather recent addition to the lawyer joke corpus, appearing in print first in 1986. It derives from a joke about husbands which has been around since at least the 1940s.[Galanter cites here to Eddie Cantor, World's Book of Best Jokes (1943),p. 171, and Frederick Meier, The Joke Tellers Joke Book (1944), p. 306.]Although sometimes told about women, salespeople, senators, criminalsuspects, economists, politicians, and others, it has become predominantly a lawyer joke -- at least in the United States." This comes from a Newspaperarchive.com scan of a comic speech-balloon--another encouraging search sign. 15 June 1935, DENTON JOURNAL (Denton, Maryland), pg. 4, col. 2 comic: "THE FEATHERHEADS" By Osborne PANEL ONE WIFE: WELL, WHERE HAVE _YOU_ BEEN SO LATE? HUSBAND: WELL--ER--YOU SEE-- PANEL TWO WIFE: BEFORE YOU START--I MIGHT AS WELL TELL YOU I CAN TELL IF YOU'RE LYING! HUSBAND: HUH! I WOULDN'T LIE TO YOU, DARLING--BUT HOW COULD YOU TELL IF I DID? PANEL THREE WIFE: BY LOOKING AT YOUR FACE--IF YOUR LIPS ARE MOVING--YOU'RE LYING!! PANEL FOUR WIFE: WELL--GO ON WITH YOUR STORY. PANEL FIVE DUCK/NARRATOR: IF YOUR STORY IS DOUBTFUL--LET IT LIE. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- PROFESSIONAL COURTESY I don't know Fred Shapiro's latest for this popular joke about lawyers. 15 June 1949, NASHUA TELEGRAPH (Nashua, New Hampshire), pg. 12, col. 5 ("National Whirligig" by Ray Tucker): _HUMOR_--Although once a New Deal legalite and bureaucrat, former Price Administrator and Brain Truster Paul A. Porter has not permitted those assignments to rob him of his sense of humor. In a recent address to a law group, he dared to demean their profession. "Three men--a lawyer, an atheist and a professing Christian," he said, "were shipwrecked on a raft with the sharks circling around. Then it became clear that the raft would hold only two of them, they drew lots as to who would jump off. The lawyer jumped, but the man-eating sharks turned away and let him pass through their midst. "There," commented the Christian. "he was spared because I offered up prayers for him." "You're wrong," replied the non-believer. "The sharks spared him out of professional courtesy." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- COSMOPOLITAN (continued) I e-mailed COSMOPOLITAN magazine about the first citation of the "Cosmopolitan cocktail" in its pages...PLAYBOY runs articles on drinks, but I don't see that it's searchable online. William Grimes's STRAIGHT UP OR ON THE ROCKS has a nice treatment of "Cosmopolitan" in the 2001 second edition. I don't know if it's in the first edition. A check of Amazon.com's new "in-the-book" search feature shows the "Cosmopolitan" in Kristin McKloy's SOME GIRLS (1994). STRAIGHT UP OR ON THE ROCKS: THE STORY OF THE AMERICAN COCKTAIL by William Grimes North Point Press November 2001 Pg. 119: The image of vodka as a refresher, and the cocktail as a kind of sports drink, reached an apotheosis with the Cosmopolitan, one of the stranger success stories of the present day. The drink, a pleasant blend of vodka, cranberry juice, lime juice, and Cointreau, is a slightly wealthier relative of cranberry coolers like the Cape Codder. It first surfaced in the late 1980s, and unlike other fad cocktails, it has not only survived but prospered. More than a decade after first being sighted, it may well be the most universally ordered mixed drink in America, for reasons that one can onlu guess at. It looks attractive in a glass, with a pink neon glow. It bursts with agreeable fruit flavors. The key to its phenomenal success may, however, bye the name. No one feels silly ordering it. At a time when classic cocktails command new respect, it sounds as though it might have a pedigree. And as a statement, "I am cosmpolitan" is hard to improve on. Like a well-written sit-com, it glatters its audience into believing they are a little more sophisticated and knowing than they really are. It's an insider's cocktail that absolutely everyone drinks, a glossy fake that with effortless charm has insinuated itself into the cocktail repertoire. Like the talented Mr. Ripley, it showed up one day wearing the right clothes. No one knows if it will ever leave. Some girls (1994) by Kristin McCloy > Excerpt from page 62 "... wait for her to answer. Claude, can you make a > Cosmopolitan? Did I go to Andrew's ... it expertly in a silver cocktail > shaker, vodka and lime juice and Cointreau with a splash of cranberry. What would > Tommy be doing now, she thought as he ..." From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Sun Dec 28 12:02:43 2003 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:02:43 -0000 Subject: "All That Jazz" (1929) Message-ID: I'm loathe to quibble, and no-one is keener to give due plaudits to Barry's discoveries, but could not the 'jazz' in this cite be no more than jazz as played, as in 'all that jazz [music that there is in the movie].' I haven't seen 'Girls Gone Wild' (I haven't _heard_ of GGW) but with that reference to the 'recklessness of modern youth' it sounds suspiciously like a precursor of all those Fifties teen titles in which rock 'n' roll, rather than jazz, was seen as the end of the world as we know it, but which, with its audience aforethought, invariably had loads of the music in question. So, as I say, might the phrase not be literal, rather than figurative? Jonathon Green From douglas at NB.NET Sun Dec 28 14:49:41 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:49:41 -0500 Subject: "All That Jazz" (1929) In-Reply-To: <083F4570.5BD10DD1.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: >THE NEW WEEK'S BILLS; METROPOLITAN EARLE PALACE LITTLE THEATER THE STRAND >FOX COLUMBIA >By NELSON B. BELL.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun >3, 1929. p. 16 (1 page): > _FOX_ > "GIRLS GONE WILD." A William Fox sound picture, featuring Sue Carol > and Nick Stuart... >------------------- > While there is some justification for the title--in a nice way--this > picture is by no means so tawdry as its name implies. Not that it is any > great shakes as drama, but combined with what threatened to be merely > another exploitation of the recklessness of modern youth there is a bit > of high-power police stuff that partially takes the curse off all that jazz. > >Bob Addie's Column . . . >The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Sep >13, 1957. p. A19 (1 page) What is the date of the quotation, please? June 3, 1929? Sep. 13, 1957? -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Sun Dec 28 15:00:31 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 10:00:31 -0500 Subject: "Gentlemen, start your engines" (1952) In-Reply-To: <18719EC5.1E6901CB.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: "Iowa City Press Citizen" (Iowa City IA), 24 May 1952: p. 8, cols. 7-8: "The Indianapolis 500": <<... But the greatest thrill, for spectators and drivers alike, comes when the starter lifts a megaphone to his mouth at precisely two minutes before 10 a.m. and shouts, "Gentlemen -- Start Your Engines!">> ---------- Looks like 9:58 a.m. in this piece. My Gugelblick shows a remark to the effect that the famous instruction became associated with the Indy 500 after 1946 (when the race was reinstituted after WW II); another remark says "early 1950's". Just unsupported Web-factoids. -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 28 15:04:51 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 10:04:51 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Strip Poker" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: strip poker (OED 1929) 1912 _Fort Wayne Sentinel_ 5 Mar. 2 (Ancestry.com) TONIGHT ... STRIP POKER VAUDEVILLE. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Sun Dec 28 16:38:28 2003 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:38:28 EST Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust Message-ID: In a message dated 12/27/2003 3:15:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > >Don't some dialects (not mine) already have one? > > dInIs > > > >Abot the phoneme: I was half-jokingly speculating about the possibility of > >analyzing this as a vowel diphthong /iu/, that would take its place beside > >/ou/, /au/, and /Uu/. > In parts of the South they have /ju/ in variation with /iu/ and according to PEAS it used to be a folk pronunciation in NE-Upstate NY, but I believe it has now died out (this is in words like music, due, news in NE). But what's interesting about ee-yoo is that all dialects in the US have added it (at least that's my guess), so we have this diphthong existing in a single lexical item. I don't say this much unless I'm trying to get a reaction from my children, but as I experiment with these sounds, I realize I do have another expression of disgust which I'd render as /i 'j at x/--maybe we'd write it yuch--with a good German velar voiceless fricative at the end. I don't know if other people have it but it could be put to use teaching students that elusive German sound. Dale Coye The College of NJ From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Sun Dec 28 18:27:25 2003 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:27:25 -0600 Subject: cell phone hang up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How about "punch out"? sod From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Dec 28 20:54:16 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 15:54:16 -0500 Subject: cell phone hang up In-Reply-To: <7BFB861F-3963-11D8-80C8-003065F63A80@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: I've heard "disconnect" and "dropped call," but these tend to be used for involuntary loss of signal not deliberate hang ups. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Sally O. Donlon > Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 1:27 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: cell phone hang up > > > How about "punch out"? > > sod > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 28 20:55:33 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 15:55:33 EST Subject: "All That Jazz" (1929) Message-ID: In a message dated 12/28/2003 9:51:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, douglas at NB.NET writes: > > >THE NEW WEEK'S BILLS; METROPOLITAN EARLE PALACE LITTLE THEATER THE STRAND > >FOX COLUMBIA > >By NELSON B. BELL.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun > >3, 1929. p. 16 (1 page): > > _FOX_ > > "GIRLS GONE WILD." A William Fox sound picture, featuring Sue Carol > > and Nick Stuart... > >------------------- > > While there is some justification for the title--in a nice way--this > > picture is by no means so tawdry as its name implies. Not that it is any > > great shakes as drama, but combined with what threatened to be merely > > another exploitation of the recklessness of modern youth there is a bit > > of high-power police stuff that partially takes the curse off all that > jazz. > > > >Bob Addie's Column . . . > >The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Sep > >13, 1957. p. A19 (1 page) > > What is the date of the quotation, please? June 3, 1929? Sep. 13, 1957? > > -- Doug Wilson The date is June 3, 1929. The next "all that jazz" in the WASHINGTON POST is in "Bob Addie's column," September 12, 1957--twenty-eight years later. I felt that it was necessary to show the gap here. We have slightly earlier 1950s citations for "all that jazz," but not by much. Barry Popik From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Dec 28 22:21:04 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 16:21:04 -0600 Subject: Blend: "curried to the right" (= curried favor with the right) Message-ID: From columnist Ellen Goodman, "Mistakes? We've Made a Few," _St. Louis Post-Dispatch_, Sunday, Dec. 28, 2003, Section B, p. 3, col. 1: "...As for the column saying President Bush 'curried to the right,' it turns out that he can curry favor with the right or he can cater to the right, but he can't curry to them. No matter how much he tries." Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 28 22:43:46 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 17:43:46 EST Subject: Long Johns (1930); Bismarcks (1917); Bishop's Nose (1900) Message-ID: LONG JOHNS I looked again for "long john." DARE has 1945. The Newspaperarchive.com database didn't show that other 1952 "Gentleman, start your engines." I also re-checked for "strip poker" and didn't find the citation that I had posted from Ancestry.com using "Strip" (First Name) and "Poker" (Last Name). So the search engine, while vastly improved, is not perfect. Chronicle Telegram - 2/16/1940 ...Choc. Malted Milk Cakes 18e 25c Glazed LONG JOHNS doz. 20c Chop Suey Rolls doz. 20c.. Elyria, Ohio Friday, February 16, 1940 451 k 16 February 1940, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. 19?, col. 1: FRANK'S BAKERY SPECIALS FOR SATURDAY Choc. Malted Milk Cakes...18c-25c Glazed Long Johns...doz. 20c Chop Suey Rolls...doz. 20c Parkerhouse and Cloverleaf Rolls...doz. 15c Sun Herald - 11/13/1930 ...Cakes, Pies, Doughnuts, Bismarcks and LONG JOHNS We invite you to come in and see.....me thnt hc can p relict just about how LONG a new man will last. "If hla flrst req.. Lime Springs, Iowa Thursday, November 13, 1930 431 k 13 November 1930, SUN-HERALD (Lime Springs, Iowa), pg.5?, cols. 5-7: Shelton's Bakery At Lime Springs Bread, Rolls, Cakes, Pies, Doughnuts, Bismarcks and Long Johns ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BISMARCKS DARE has 1930 (for "long-john") and 1950. I searched "Bismarcks" with another keyword such as "cakes" and "pies." See also the ADS-L archives. Decatur Review - 7/20/1917 ...Rolls lOc each Marshmallow Rolls lOe each BISMARCKS ,15c doz. And Many Other Bits of.....Doughnuts 12c doz. Cake Doughnuts .15c doz. PIES, all kinds ,15c each Layer Cakes ,..-25c.. Decatur, Illinois Friday, July 20, 1917 481 k 20 July 1917, DECATUR REVIEW (Decatur, Illinois), pg. 6?, col. 2: The National Bakery 133 North Water Street (...) Layer Cakes... Jelly Rolls... Marshmallow Rolls... Bismarcks...15c doz. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BISHOP'S NOSE Just above "bismarck" in DARE is "bishop's nose." It's a "pope's nose" or "parson's nose." (See ADS-L archives.) DARE has 1965-70. The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "1960s." The article is worth transcribing in full. Reno Evening Gazette - 4/28/1900 ...the rump of a fowl is the "parson's" or "BISHOP'S" NOSE; a bowic knife Is an "Arkansas.. Reno, Nevada Saturday, April 28, 1900 663 k 28 April 1900, RENO EVENING GAZETTE (Reno, Nevada), pg. 2?, col. 2: _WELSH RABBIT OR RAREBIT._ _Odd Nicknames Used in Various_ _Climes for Some Common Arti-_ _cles of Food._ Here comes again for the 'strenth time that old question about the Welsh "rabbit" or "rarebit," says the New York Press funny man. In Paris it is "rarebit" on the bills of fare, or its equivalent in French, but our late dictionaries and our astute editors insist that it should be "rabbit." After half a day's search I arrive at the conclusion that it was originally "rare-bit," and that "rabbit" is a modern corruption. I say the highest authorities agree on this, but my editor says they don't, and what he says goes, in this paper. Certain of our lexicographers insist that "rabbit" as applied to cheese and toast, etc., is of jocular origin, but I am not sure that the people of Wales regard cheese thus prepared as their national dish. It is true that we have the "Cape Cod turkey," which is a codfish, and numerous other humorously applied special dishes. The lamb fry is a "mountain oyster," the calf is an "Essex lion," the calf's head is "mock turtle," the cured ham is "Cincinnati chicken," red herrings are "Glasgow magistrates" or "Norfolk capons," the potato is an "Irish apricot," a "Murphy" or a "Munster plum;" the shrimp is a "Gravesend sweetmeat," whisky is "wine of the country" or "hair of the dog," the rump of a fowl is the "pope's," "parson's" or "bishop's nose;" a bowie knife is an "Arkansas toothpick," a railroad porter is a "baggage smasher," a native of Nova Scotia is a "blue-nose," temper is "Irish," to walk is to "take shank's mare," etc. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Dec 28 22:59:43 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 17:59:43 -0500 Subject: Word or Phrase of the Year Message-ID: The time is approaching for the American Dialect Society to select and announce its Word of the Year. This typically is the ADS's one moment in the media sun over the course of the year. I would like to make some suggestions as to how ADS can maximize its annual 15 minutes. 1. ADS should take this opportunity to get a broader message out than simply that the WOTY is SARS or embedded or whatever. I'm not sure what that message should be; I invite response. I suppose in general that it could be about language and linguistics generally, about the role of linguists, or about the role specifically of the ADS; the latter two options seem to me to be the most promising. 2. There should be a spokesperson or spokespeople who have been designated in advance, who are articulate and well-credentialed, and who are available to talk to the media. 3. The WOTY information should be added as promptly as possible to the ADS website. 4. Instead of just Word of the Year, it might be better to say Word or Phrase of the Year, at least if a phrase is in fact the winner. There's a lot of time lost explaining that words also include phrases. John Baker From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 28 23:50:02 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 18:50:02 -0500 Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust In-Reply-To: <9.1f4e903e.2d1f0b1a@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:19 AM -0500 12/27/03, Dale Coye wrote: >Abot the phoneme: I was half-jokingly speculating about the possibility of >analyzing this as a vowel diphthong /iu/, that would take its place beside >/ou/, /au/, and /Uu/. > I guess we all have this as a rising diphthong (as in "beauty"), but not as a falling one. Or vice versa--I can never remember which is which. The one in "eeyuw" or whatever is definitely (for me) bisyllabic; that distinguishes it from the others above. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 28 23:56:04 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 18:56:04 -0500 Subject: Not Chopped Liver (1947); Texas Toast (1960); Ants on a Log (1983) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031227092836.04c321e0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 9:46 AM -0500 12/27/03, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>But your recent antedating of "ball of wax" has destroyed a nice >>theory I had about it. > >My default hypothesis would be that "ball of wax" in this sense originated >as an 'intentional malapropism' for "bailiwick". > >This would be analogous to (and conceivably the model for?) "[mind your >own] beeswax" for "business". > >It would seem that "ball o' wax" was available early enough to be picked up >for the malapropism (with the meaning "shoemaker" ... although the meaning >-- as with "beeswax" -- is presumably of no significance). No etymological >legend about balls of wax is required IMHO. > >-- Doug Wilson Aren't the meanings too different here? Unlike the case of "beeswax", which in the expression "Mind your own ____" really just means 'business', a "bailiwick" is a domain or (in the AHD's term) 'a person's specific area of interest', which isn't at all the same as the whole ball o' wax (the universe, the whole thing, whatever. ('an unspecified set of circumstances'--AHD4) "Bailiwick" is standardly used with the possessive, the person defining the relevant domain, "ball o' wax" isn't. I don't see this as fertile ground for reanalysis. Larry From douglas at NB.NET Mon Dec 29 00:49:12 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 19:49:12 -0500 Subject: Not Chopped Liver (1947); Texas Toast (1960); Ants on a Log (1983) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>My default hypothesis would be that "ball of wax" in this sense originated >>as an 'intentional malapropism' for "bailiwick". >> >>This would be analogous to (and conceivably the model for?) "[mind your >>own] beeswax" for "business". >> >>It would seem that "ball o' wax" was available early enough to be picked up >>for the malapropism (with the meaning "shoemaker" ... although the meaning >>-- as with "beeswax" -- is presumably of no significance). No etymological >>legend about balls of wax is required IMHO. >> >>-- Doug Wilson > >Aren't the meanings too different here? Unlike the case of >"beeswax", which in the expression "Mind your own ____" really just >means 'business', a "bailiwick" is a domain or (in the AHD's term) 'a >person's specific area of interest', which isn't at all the same as >the whole ball o' wax (the universe, the whole thing, whatever. ('an >unspecified set of circumstances'--AHD4) "Bailiwick" is standardly >used with the possessive, the person defining the relevant domain, >"ball o' wax" isn't. I don't see this as fertile ground for >reanalysis. -- Larry The word "beeswax" was first used in place of "business" at some point, for unknown reasons but presumably as an 'intentional malapropism'. The meaning of the word "beeswax" (i.e., wax from a bee) was essentially irrelevant. [Similarly, one might say "horse pistol" for "hospital" (this one I used to hear in my youth, and it appears a few times on the Web).] "Beeswax" did not replace "business" in all environments; I don't think one will hear "he's in the grocery beeswax" etc.: it's only in "mind your own ..." and "none of your ..." (and maybe a few other expressions?). [And why "beeswax"? Why not, say, "bee's knees"? I don't know.] Similarly "ball o' wax" (taken ONLY for its phonetics without any real reference to a ball or to wax) may have replaced "bailiwick" in the single expression "the whole bailiwick" and not in other environments such as "the Judge's bailiwick" etc. I do assume the pre-existence of the expression "the whole bailiwick" = "the whole territory", and the hypothesis would certainly be stronger if this was a common turn of phrase back in 1850 or whenever "whole ball of wax" appeared. "The whole bailiwick" need not have encompassed the entire semantic territory of the modern "whole ball of wax" however; after the replaced word was forgotten one would tend to use the expression as if it referred to something like a ball. "Bailiwick" and even "whole bailiwick" do appear occasionally meaning "[whole] territory", with no possessive, even now. For example search at Amazon.com turns up in a recent Piers Anthony novel ("Split Infinity", 1987, p. 270) the sentence "Better to avoid that whole bailiwick." [and I don't see a 'possessor']. Or: Robert Grossbach (2001), "A Shortage of Engineers" (p. 200): "those are whole other bailiwicks." Look at Popik's 1892 example: "the whole ball of wax" MIGHT refer to "all the girls" (but that's not an application which would be likely today IMHO) but it might also be construed as "the whole country". The 1882 instance which I posted recently has "the whole ball of wax" = "the whole country" as I read it. If we had more early citations it might (or might not, of course) be evident that the early sense of "whole ball of wax" was "whole territory/country" ... much more like "bailiwick". But I don't want to give the impression that I am fervently attached to this hypothesis: it's just the best one I see right now, my "default guess" until something better appears! -- Doug Wilson From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Dec 29 01:08:26 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:08:26 -0500 Subject: Not Chopped Liver (1947); Texas Toast (1960); Ants on a Log (1983) Message-ID: Note that "bailiwick" and "whole ball of wax" are in a sense opposites: "Whole ball of wax," of course, quintessentially denotes completeness. "Bailiwick," on the other hand, is essentially a limiting term, indicating the bounds of a person's jurisdiction. John Baker From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 29 01:42:38 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:42:38 EST Subject: "Best things in life are free" (1917) & more phrases Message-ID: RANDOM HOUSE DICTIONARY OF AMERICA'S POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS by Gergory Titelman second edition New York: Random House 2000 I've mentioned and destroyed much of the work here before. I'll use Newspaperarchive.com to search relevant phrases here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- AS MAINE GOES, SO GOES THE NATION Pg. 14. Titleman has 1888. Something like it was used in 1840. "Nation" has replaced "Union"--again, you have to search for as few words as possible. Hamilton Daily Republican - 9/21/1894 ...KOVK TKfK. [Catholic Telegraph.] "AS MAINE GOES, so GOES the Union" will undoubtedly.....the laughing stock of the entire Country, AS it nearly always h AS been. It wAS not to.....Protective ASsociation is disgraceful AS it is demagogical, and the demand for a.. Hamilton, Ohio Friday, September 21, 1894 690 k Burlington Hawk Eye - 9/17/1874 ...from MAINE? And don't you know that AS MAINE GOES so tho Union? The wires bring us.....on enjoying their rights. The people of MAINE see this, and their glorious vic tory.....to ber home to work for her parents, or GOES away with her to work in a new home of.....Iowa will follow the good ex ample get by MAINE, and when the polls close on the second.. Burlington, Iowa Thursday, September 17, 1874 757 k Decatur Daily Republican - 9/20/1882 ...that direction. POLITICAL NOTES. AS MAINE GOES so GOES the Union. THE Santa Pe New.....remarks on the republican victory in MAINE: There will be two cl ASses of people.....stand; divided we fall.'" The report then GOES on to spea of the perilous situation of.....weeks predicting and hoping for disASter in MAINE. If they could only point to the fact.. Decatur, Illinois Wednesday, September 20, 1882 889 k Trenton Evening Times - 10/23/1896 ...The November Forum will contain: "AS MAINE GOES, so GOES the a trenchant article, by the.....faction will'bave'the (Ontrol of it, AS well AS of all other departments _ of tho.....of partisan sway. This proposal is almost AS bnfl AS aiming a bullet at the flag of our.....Republicau, who hAS become vury conspicuous AS a machine man since Mr. Lauterbacb served.. Trenton, New Jersey Friday, October 23, 1896 789 k Perry Chief - 9/14/1876 ...of at leASt five thousand. "AS MAINE GOES, so GOES the Union." Buch bein; the cASe.....closely followed by the sturdy voters of MAINE, who have spoken in tones that will.....nnd fifty-two minutes. In the Cist round GOES on his knees ncd struck by Allcu, on.....will be in the neighborhood of And thus it GOES . Vermont first sent the country grceticg.. Perry, Iowa Thursday, September 14, 1876 301 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BACK TO SQUARE ONE Pg. 17. Titelman says "early 1960s, but gives no citations. The 1949 citation below is really from 1993! FOR ILLUSTRATION ONLY! DON'T USE IT! Chronicle Telegram - 8/27/1949 ...Methodist Church. Lorain plan goes 'BACK TO SQUARE ONE' Lawrence Budd The Chronicle.....As far as I'm concerned, we're BACK TO SQUARE ONE. However, Metelsky, chairman of.....City Council member TO say the plan goes TO SQUARE ONE. Service DirecTOr Rocky Ortiz.....at Bowling Green State University and was ONE of 40 teachers selected from applicants.. Elyria, Ohio Saturday, August 27, 1949 621 k Post Crescent - 9/3/1967 ...vicTOry TOok the Chinese economy BACK TO SQUARE ONE. All American aid was withdrawn.....and nuclear armament, TO turn BACK TO an agrarian economy. They accordingly.....s According TO internal Chinese estimate, ONE of Stalin's biggest mistakes was failure.....Pof omoc Dick Gregory wants Negroes TO bet BACK at capitalists by boycotting Christmas.. Appleton, Wisconsin Sunday, September 03, 1967 718 k Chronicle Telegram - 4/25/1967 ...Death has brought both nations BACK TO SQUARE ONE in the moon said 'an eminent.....s shattered body was cremated and brought BACK TO Moscow, his home TO wn, TO lie in.....the urn of ashes before it is taken TO Red SQUARE later this week for a hero's funeral.....attempt, planned for a.m., got TO within ONE second of lifTOff when an auTOmatic.. Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, April 25, 1967 668 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BALL IS IN YOUR COURT Pg. 18. Titelman says "mid-twentieth century." Chronicle Telegram - 4/13/1971 ...counterINg the Red ChINa lobby. The BALL IS IN YOUR COURT. eral Mitchell when they say no.....IN 1954 he voted for legal wiretappINg on COURT order. The 57-year-old representative.....crime field. These were INstalled under a COURT order obtaINed under provISions of the.....people technology IS out and nostalgia IS IN. Many are more INterested IN clean.. Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, April 13, 1971 717 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BEHIND EVERY MAN THERE IS A GREAT WOMAN Pg. 20. Titelman's first date here is 1977. Ames Daily Tribune - 2/2/1955 ...Peace' VES.gTHEL, THEM'S A WOMAN BEHIND, EVERY MAN I'VE BEEN BEHIND FRED THAT'S.....an assignment, but much to his liking for BEHIND the scenes and out of the political.....functions held in Washington almost EVERY day. He doesn't have time for them. He.....Added to White House Staff as Idea MAN By PETER ED6ON ..NEA WaiUiifton.. Ames, Iowa Wednesday, February 02, 1955 749 k Bennington Evening Banner - 6/22/1955 ...The Safford Street Sage Says That BEHIND EVERY MAN Who Succeeds There's a WoMAN and.....KING CO. CLEANERS POWNAL A Massachusetts MAN was critically injured and five vehicles.....The Banner this morning that the injured MAN was in a "precarious" condition and just.....righted the car and removed the injured MAN; who was pinned between the car and the.. Bennington, Vermont Wednesday, June 22, 1955 716 k Gettysburg Times - 8/28/1954 ...because he enjoyed it noted that BEHIND EVERY MAN stands a woMAN and introduced Mrs.....to the life, the happiness, the future of EVERY person, EVERY youngster riding, walking.....A steering wheel. And you're my captain. BEHIND me you're the lord and master of a.....And Profit To Our GOOD EVENING A mart MAN dlwhartw duttM promptly and fete rid of.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Saturday, August 28, 1954 956 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- THE BEST THINGS IN LIFE ARE FREE Pg. 23. Titleman says "Originated in the United States in 1927 and usually attributed to Buddy G. De Silva whose song 'The Best Things in Life are Free' became a hit in the Broadway musical _Good News_ (music by Ray Henderson)." Sandusky Star Journal - 11/20/1917 ...the Name of Ireland. Hugh Doaovan. The BEST THINGS IN LIFE ARE FREE Henry Burr. For You a.....that make a man want to up and look his BEST. It tickles us all to make the good old.....you IN a few words. THE NORTH WESTERN TCAL LIFE CO. R. D. KUNZ, Bell 524-K. lies. 193-R.....the time, We've helped many a man look his BEST; we're doINg it every day. We're ready.. Sandusky, Ohio Tuesday, November 20, 1917 434 k 20 November 1917, SANDUSKY STAR-JOURNAL (Sandusky, Ohio), pg. 6, col. 1: _Herman_ Places COLUMBIA GRONOLA RECORDS For December on Sale Today (...) The Best Things in Life Are Free--Henry Burr. (To be continued--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 29 01:48:49 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:48:49 EST Subject: Death Before Dishonor (1875); Rock/Hard Place (1960); Blacker the Berry (1961) Message-ID: This continues an updating of Gregory TItelman's AMERICAN POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS (2000) using Newspaperarchive.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BETTER DEATH THAN DISHONOR Pg. 23. Titelman has 1931. Decatur Daily Review - 3/25/1931 ...quashed. tions, "The Godless Girt" "DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR." and Tammany Plans WOODMEN.....crime wave in which two men were shot to DEATH and another wounded. The primary.....JJ survey enaction taken on the "just "BEFORE "he" start of each 0{ the 10i000.....grounds. aboard the Arizona this mornin? BEFORE the party disembarked for Bloomington.. Decatur, Illinois Wednesday, March 25, 1931 643 k Ohio Democrat - 4/26/1883 ...by compliiining to the monitor. No. DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR. This is nn extreme example.....full often find this out -a their sorrow as DEATH seizes upon them. Had they been wise in.....I have kept my promise, Miss said Arkwood BEFORE she had time to spenk; now, with your.....he marked G. M. D., not the Gristly Monster DEATH, whlah he so long had dreaded, but.. New Philadelphia, Ohio Thursday, April 26, 1883 1371 k Reno Evening Gazette - 6/29/1922 ...are with us in this great struggle. 'DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR being an unchanging principle.. Reno, Nevada Thursday, June 29, 1922 599 k Denton Journal - 3/31/1906 ...which read "My load is too heavy. DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR. My benefit in the I. 0. H.....about 4 o'clock Sunday morning. DEATH was due to paralysis, with which he was.....well known in this county having practiced BEFORE our court for more than a quarter of a.....circumstances surrounding Judge Urown's DEATH were particularly suil, and its.. Denton, Maryland Saturday, March 31, 1906 840 k Gettysburg Times - 12/5/1929 ...in the door and meekly surrendered. "DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR" Tattooed on his arm he wore.....the legend, "DEATH BEFORE and the namesof "Jack "Frank.....at 7 p. m. Unknown. Hunter Blamed For DEATH HIGHWAY (Continued from First Page.....Mrs. Rasmus Saby spoke on "Hospitality" BEFORE the Business and [ndustrial Girls club.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Thursday, December 05, 1929 929 k Hamilton Guidon - 1/28/1875 ...have upheld the deed. It was DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR, and killing which was no.....and picked up by our devil. feelings by the DEATH cf him Nvho did him the terrible wrong.....on: but we fea: it will be a long time BEFORE another editor of that concern goes to.....Now the infamous wretch richly deserved DEATH ; yet we would ratlier that the father.. Hamilton, Ohio Thursday, January 28, 1875 745 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE Pg. 25. Titelman's first citation is 1984. Now used for "Iraq." Indiana Evening Gazette - 11/9/1960 ...hound dog. he should get himself hunt up BETWEEN A ROCK And A hArd plAce, there's.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, November 09, 1960 575 k Panola Watchman - 7/7/1960 ...is known As .qonM And they kmdA put :elks BETWEEN A ROCK And A hArd plAce If you dont.. Carthage, Texas Thursday, July 07, 1960 429 k New York Daily Times - 8/2/1854 ...the following Accident there. to drive teAm BETWEEN A ROCK on the kill And thicliff.....is composed of Pulpit ROCK of slAte; CAsth, ROCK And Egg ROCK of compAct fiqdspAr. LIN.....elifin, if only to see End where yeA cAn or BETWEEN the (l mAy b my nnmemns coves And.....Icy end the posed to Icehug And irritA tmn BETWEEN tile Enghsh And AmericAn mArroe.. New York, New York Wednesday, August 02, 1854 744 k Reno Evening Gazette - 9/10/1923 ...toppling over. HAycrAft wAs ciuislit BETWEEN A ROCK And the side of the cA r.. Reno, Nevada Monday, September 10, 1923 700 k Times Recorder - 7/5/1950 ...or definite. Riddle WhAt's the difference BETWEEN A ROCK-pile conx-ict And A jigsAw.....lArger, broAder And more fArflung conflict BETWEEN the two worlds Nnhody believes thAt.. Zanesville, Ohio Wednesday, July 05, 1950 718 k Council Bluffs Nonpareil - 9/3/1951 ...with injuries suffered in A collision BETWEEN A ROCK IslAnd DES MOINES IP The 1951.....the 38t'.i pArAllel, old politicAf boundAry BETWEEN North And South KoreA. Ftontllne Tour.....Army heAdquArters, OKLAHOMA ROCKET The ROCK IslA nd's OklAhomA ROCKet, southbound.....wArd bound movement yet to come. FAtA lities BETWEEN 6 p. m. Fifth HurricAne Churns.. Council Bluffs, Iowa Monday, September 03, 1951 790 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- THE BLACKER THE BERRY, THE SWEETER THE JUICE Pg. 29. Titleman's first citation is 1984. Titelman says "Berries are best when they are ripe. ... It is often applied to black women." OT: So I'm in the doctor's office getting my typhoid bills for Ghana, and out of nowhere he says "It's Africa, so there's no sex." Stevens Point Daily Journal - 6/10/1965 ...and proclaimed, "THE blacker THE berry, THE SWEETER THE JUICE." THE world heavyweight.....circuit That was THE end of THE lynx and THE start of THE fire which nearly destroyed.....of THE 1965 civil rights struggle and THE first stop on THE tour. THE newsmen were.....in THE Illinois Synod. Since THE move meant THE loss .of about 51 million annually to THE.. Stevens Point, Wisconsin Thursday, June 10, 1965 599 k Times Recorder - 6/2/1961 ...cry out. and. THE blacker THE berry, THE SWEETER THE JUICE.' Even THE Negro churches.....it is THE hole cards that often count THE most and determine who wins THE hand. THE.....Lane TEN YEARS AGO THE mercury topped THE 90 degree mark as THE first heal wave of.....to sit in THE United Nations, THE equals of THE THEy'll Do It Evervtimc British, THE.. Zanesville, Ohio Friday, June 02, 1961 746 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SIZE DOESN'T MATTER/COUNT Titelman doesn't have this, but while my mind is on the topic and before I forget, here it is. Fred Shapiro once asked about this phrase. There's not much here in your family newspaper. Evening Telegram - 12/30/1918 ...village library or i town hall; the SIZE DOESN'T MATTER, but the preservation of the.....relic does MATTER. today, barely emerging from, the war.....war souvenirs and study Frencli lansic. No MATTER gmaii B'Teoch home, there is a taWe.. Elyria, Ohio Monday, December 30, 1918 882 k Charleston Daily Mail - 7/13/1937 ...up to buying gear for comfort first SIZE DOESN'T MATTER so long as it is the right.. Charleston, West Virginia Tuesday, July 13, 1937 618 k 13 July 1937, CHARLESTON DAILY MAIL (Charleston, West Virginia), pg.9, col. 7: Corns and callouses are less in evidence, not only because chiropodists are kept busier but because women have learned their foot lore, have become educated up to buying foot gear for comfort first...sixe doesn't matter so long as it is the right size. Zanesville Signal - 6/6/1947 ...group; recitations, "A True Rita 'SIZE DOESN'T COUNT." Douglas T i Miss Miller Bride.....x all ttxre it to it. If tke -my bottle DOESN'T the implr. iott bulky and hdp dnder.. Zanesville, Ohio Friday, June 06, 1947 784 k Newark Advocate - 12/20/1932 ...adrift upon Doubtful world -Washington SIZE DOESN'T COUNT. Said rny wife a.s she tried on.. Newark, Ohio Tuesday, December 20, 1932 701 k 20 December 1932, NEWARK ADVOCATE (Newark, Ohio), pg. 4, col. 6: _Where Size Doesn't Count._ Said my wife as she tried on her little new hat, "It cost only 30 plunks, isn't it nice?" I answered, "Mine's three times the size, dear, of that And cost merely a fractional part of that price!" Waukesha Daily Freeman - 5/24/1948 ...with the southern coal producers. SIZE DOESN'T COUNT Scooter Driver Is Fined When.. Waukesha, Wisconsin Monday, May 24, 1948 740 k Waterloo Daily Courier - 11/14/1948 ...BIG Power When you've got the power, SIZE DOESN'T COUNT. And with Courier Classified.. Waterloo, Iowa Sunday, November 14, 1948 944 k Gazette - 7/31/1912 ...and knocked him off a scaffold. SIZE DOESN'T COUNT if you can choose your own.....were: Restrictions as to the least SIZE of yachts which could safely be.. Stevens Point, Wisconsin Wednesday, July 31, 1912 815 k (To be continued) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 29 02:26:53 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 21:26:53 EST Subject: The Buck Stops Here (1946); Make a Federal Case (1951) Message-ID: THE BUCK STOPS HERE This appears to be before President Truman used it. Statesville Record - 6/15/1946 ...Kerr'? in Oklahoma City. It reads: "The BUCK STOPS HERE." Governor Kerr's secretary.....said that meant when the BUCK was passec a! around until it reached.....congregation, and he joined tbt church HERE some year? ago. is a nephew of Rev. S. L.....rela-j Those of all denominations are tives HERE. AROUND CAPITOL SQUARE cordially invited.. Statesville, North Carolina Saturday, June 15, 1946 776 k 15 June 1946, STATESVILLE DAILY RECORD (Statesville, NC), pg. 2, col. 2: BUCK--Somebody in North Carolina ought to have a sign like that on Governor Robert Kerr's desk in Oklahoma City. It reads: "The Buck Stops Here." Governor Kerr's secretary said that meant when the buck was passed all around until it reached the governor he had nowhere to pass it and so he had to handle the matter. No state official wants to take the initiative in prosecuting election law violations. These financial reports offer a case in point. The law requires them to be filed with the secretary of state in statewide or district campaigns, with the clerk of court in county races, and obligation is imposed upon these officials to get the reports in. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MAKE A FEDERAL CASE OF IT On December 4th, Fred Shapiro posted: The phrase "make a federal case out of it" is not in OED or HDAS. The earliest that has been found for this, I believe, is a 1955 _Time_citation in Merriam-Webster's files. I have found the following on ProQuest: 1952 _N.Y. Times_ 6 Apr. X1 But we won't make a Federal case of it; thepoint is that "Singin' in the Rain" kids an era and a style offilm-production about as well as it has ever been done. Fred Shapiro Another good sign--the first citation is again from the comics! Nashua Telegraph - 5/11/1951 ...Are jn trouble. They chose to MAKE A FederAl cAse out of it." Improved modern.....vAcAtioning SECOND (IRTIODRLBflllK MEMBER FEDERAL DEPOSIT INSURANCE CORPORATION.....ht wAs not IsgAily Who pAys his oosts in A cAse of thAt kind? A NSW1ER: InsurKncs CompAny.. Nashua, New Hampshire Friday, May 11, 1951 718 k 11 May 1951, NASHUA TELEGRAPH (Naashua, New Hampshire), pg. 14, col.6: Newspaper columnist says that "no wonder the Red Chinese are in trouble. They chose to make a federal case out of it." Edwardsville Intelligencer - 12/12/1951 ...So two And two equAls four let's not MAKE A federAl cAse out of "Why is the boss AlwAys.....his mAil? get promoted I'll wipe out these MAKE IT LOOK LIKE coweoy ow A PUT COUPLA EARS.....beings 14 LiterAry bltf 15 Terror 17 MAKE 18 Exist 19 It Is In Greece 29 Fruit 11.. Edwardsville, Illinois Wednesday, December 12, 1951 632 k Sheboygan Press Telegram - 4/28/1951 ...SO NOUVE FOUND SOME OLD IN KITS CANT MAKE A FEDERAL. CASE OF MAYBE I CAN STEVE.' HERE.....TEAMS WILL THIWK I GOT AWFUL SPEEP AM' MAKE ME A OFFER.' SUCH AWFUL CONTROL. OFFSET.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Saturday, April 28, 1951 767 k 28 April 1951, SHEBOYGAN PRESS (Sheboygan, WIsconsin). pg. 14, col. 2 ("STEVE ROPER" comic, first panel): OKAY VANCE--SO YOU'VE FOUND SOME OLD EAR RINGS IN KIT'S DESK!...YOU CAN'T MAKE A FEDERAL CASE OUT OF THAT! Reno Evening Gazette - 12/12/1951 ...So two And two equAls four let's not MAKE A federAl cAse out of it.....THEY'LL DO IT EVERY TIME By Jimmy HAtlo If MAKE fT LOOK LI KB A COWBOY OW A HORSE.' PUT.....Homlin WHEwT HE'5 REACHING FOB ALTITUDE TO MAKE THAT DBWT IN MY PLA YMATE'S ANOTHER pA'j.. Reno, Nevada Wednesday, December 12, 1951 735 k East Liverpool Review - 7/14/1951 ...color video, sAy so, but do not 'MAKE A federAl cAse out of it, with hArA ngue.....is cAse they lAck color, Are Asked not to MAKE Any effort to Acquire it? We will serve.....70-billion-doilAr budget. Conceding thAt federAl employees do not get rich At their.....love it. don't get hystericAl, And pleAse MAKE your endorsement end before midnight. We.. East Liverpool, Ohio Saturday, July 14, 1951 614 k (To be continued. So many phrases--so little time!) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Dec 29 02:34:32 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:34:32 -0600 Subject: "His cake is all 'dough'" (1860)--Query Message-ID: The 19th century baseball discussion group (part of SABR, i.e., Society for American Baseball Research) received a message last month containing an 1860 baseball poem in which the last line is: "He's sure to be put out, and his cake is all 'dough'." What does this last clause mean? Gerald Cohen >At 4:43 PM +0000 10/28/03, tshieber wrote:: >To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com >Mailing-List: list 19cBB at yahoogroups.com; contact 19cBB-owner at yahoogroups.com >Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:43:41 -0000 >Subject: [19cBB] Re: Early baseball gloves > > >Folks - > Regarding early baseball gloves, I stumbled across a poem >written (recited?) on Christmas Day, 1860. It is entitled "Owe'd 2 >Base Ball: In Three Cant-Oh's!" and I would guess it was written for >and recited at a Christmas Ball thrown by the Mercantile BBC of >Philadelphia. In "Cant-Oh! III" the various players are mentioned >and the following lines appear: > >Then "Bispham" comes next, you'd expect from his looks, >He was given to study, addicted to books, > And you'd little suspect there was much in the man, > Till you saw him at play -- then beat him who can. >His favorite position is on the first base, >And he stands like a statue, always right about face, > With his hands in a pair of thick gloves all encased, > Which never miss holding the ball once embraced. >And I pity the 'batter' who when the ball's fair, >If its short, tries to make the 'first base' when he's there. > The 'batter' itself may be good enough -- though > He's sure to be put out, and his cake is all 'dough.' > > Unless I am much mistaken, this is the earliest known >reference to baseball gloves. It also is the second reference to >baseball gloves being worn in 1860 (see 1887 "National Daily Base >Ball Gazette" reference below). > As an aside, a really neat Mercantile BBC item that can be >viewed on the web is sheet music titled the "Home Run Quick Step" >which was "respectfully dedicated to members of the Mercantile Base >Ball Club." You can see it at: >http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl? >record=027.054.000&pages=5 > Thoughts and comments? > - Tom Shieber From douglas at NB.NET Mon Dec 29 04:30:43 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:30:43 -0500 Subject: Not Chopped Liver (1947); Texas Toast (1960); Ants on a Log (1983) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Whole ball of wax" is possibly a modification of "whole bailiwick" IMHO. I have not addressed "one's ball of wax", which by analogy might be related to "one's bailiwick". In fact, "one's ball of wax" is sometimes used like "one's cup of tea", other times like "one's specialty" -- something like "one's bailiwick" indeed! "Ball of wax" here approximates "thing" ("the whole thing" or "one's thing"). Examples of "my ball of wax" from Google (Groups) (there are plenty more): <> <> <> <> I do not suppose however that this sort of thing has any bearing on the etymology of "[whole] ball of wax". -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 29 04:45:25 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:45:25 EST Subject: "His cake is all 'dough'" (1860)--Query Message-ID: Ohio Repository - 1/12/1853 ...Wood already gored lo dealb. Hia.CAKE IS DOUGH. The old fellow ie: too conservative1.....of the country, which it IS admitted on ALL hands are likely to attao. He idid he.....irching ilx mUls ihat crown In morning cool ALL lh. of II. long away. Now Ih. litter of.....in our national meitopnlIS. Must, perhaps ALL the of our National Leg ialature, have.. Canton, Ohio Wednesday, January 12, 1853 829 k 12 January 1853, OHIO REPOSITORY (Canton, Ohio), pg. 1, col. 5: The great bull fight will come off on Saturday. Governor Wood is already gored to death. His cake is dough. The old fellow is too conservative for the wire pullers.--_Forest City_. Bangor Daily Whig And Courier - 11/7/1843 ...will be pretty sure to wISh her CAKE was DOUGH again. COURIER. JOHNS. 9AYWARD, Editor.....think that it IS their own lot to perform ALL the drudgery, and to be exercISed with.....of the Richmond Enquirer IS engaged -with ALL hIS might in forming political.....m r _. B the mean time wasdepos.ting ALL itcould not hold j object of the.. Bangor, Maine Tuesday, November 07, 1843 655 k 7 November 1843, DAILY WHIG AND COURIER (Bangor, Maine), pg. 2, col. 1: ...that the superanuated old miser who marries a giddy girl, hoping to make a saving in expenditure, will generally find himself wofully mistaken, and the inconsiderate girl who marries without affection or respect, only with the hope of gratifying silly vanity, will be pretty sure to wish her cake was dough again. From douglas at NB.NET Mon Dec 29 04:58:22 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:58:22 -0500 Subject: "His cake is all 'dough'" (1860)--Query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just a speculation. "Dough" = the cake before it becomes a cake. So "his cake is dough" means "his cake is in the making" or "his cake has begun to be prepared". In this case, it means more or less "his doom is sealed". The "all" is a superfluous intensifier, I speculate. -- Doug Wilson From dsgood at VISI.COM Mon Dec 29 05:25:20 2003 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:25:20 -0600 Subject: phishing Message-ID: From Google News (http://news.google.com): Phishing Attacks Soar InternetWeek.com - 2 hours ago E-mail phishing attacks jumped over 400 percent during the holidays, according to an analysis released Wednesday of scams reported to clearinghouse Anti-Phishing.org. 'Phisher' site targets Visa, as holiday scams abound IDG.com Latest 'phishing' scam targets Visa customers ComputerWorld From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 29 08:19:48 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 03:19:48 EST Subject: Don't judge a book by its cover (1894); Whose bread I eat (1921); Guess (1916) Message-ID: DON'T JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER Gregory Titelman's AMERICAN POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS (2002) has: _Don't judge a book by its cover._ Don't judge things by their appearance only. First attested in the journal _American Speech_ (1929). There you go! We coined it! Well, not quite: There are 27,800 Google hits for "Don't judge a book by." Freeborn County Standard - 5/2/1894 ...both for Men And Boys. Never JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER, Or suit of Clothes BY An.....only good butter but good treAtment Also. JUDGE Whytock Appointed Z. K. MAllery, II.....56 to Twist's 25. This report will mAde to JUDGE Whytock who will decide upon the.....hAve been cured BY JApAnese Pile Cure. BY Uriggs Drug Co. The ChicAgo dAily pApers.. Albert Lea, Minnesota Wednesday, May 02, 1894 626 k 2 May 1894, FREEBORN COUNTY STANDARD (Albert Lea, Minnesota), pg. 5?, col. 5: Never Judge a Book by its Cover... A Suit of Clothes by an Ad. News - 9/22/1914 ...Number.. Town of.. You cAn't AlwAys JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER, And you mAy think 'thAt.....City. At the Hotel StrAtton, wAs Joined BY her dAughter. Mrs. Win. BAumgArdncr. They.....fertilizing possibilities of the seA Atid ITS products. An Insight into thwo bllltles.....not only the feAtherA, but the kept cleAn BY neons of the simple device shown with j.. Frederick, Maryland Tuesday, September 22, 1914 564 k Freeborn County Standard - 6/6/1894 ...Almost their weight in gold. Never JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER, A. Suit of Clothes Ad. or.....And As solicitor for orders, the district JUDGE directed the jury to Acquit him, And.....only more thAn tbe smAllest. The form of BOOK is Admitted BY All to be the best in the.....is very heAvy, the bAck And corners of COVER Are leAther And the binding is of the.. Albert Lea, Minnesota Wednesday, June 06, 1894 607 k Democrat And Standard - 4/14/1903 ...THE GEORGIA MINSTRELS. You cAnnot JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER nor A minstrel show BY ITS.....the lAtter being AfterwArds Common PleAs JUDGE. He supplemented his privAte study with.....kings, lAwmAkers, trusts, bill-collectors, BOOK Agents, etc., it is not strAnge then.....of MOlersburg And AfterwArds Common PleAs JUDGE, being Admitted to. the BAr July 6th.. Coshocton, Ohio Tuesday, April 14, 1903 882 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- WHOSE BREAD I EAT, HIS SONG I SING Another food proverb. It pre-dates the Depression. I have a feeling it's even earlier on other databases. There are 589 Google hits for "whose bread I eat." The San Francisco Baking Institute's "Baking Muse" lists it as a "German Proverb." Pg. 369. Titelman's first citation is 1946. Appleton Post Crescent - 1/25/1926 ...Monday. RIch RIchard Says: WHOSE BREAD I EAT, hIs song I sIng'. And those who.....and the ChIcago sanItary dIstrIct, In WHOSE names Mr. Carlstrom's brI ef and.....T saId T was goIng out to get somethIng to EAT. FINDS GIRL UNCONSCI OUS "I was gone about.....to oppose the court. Senator Reed, wIth WHOSE name Klan agItatIon bad been lInked by.. Appleton, Wisconsin Monday, January 25, 1926 879 k 25 January 1926, APPLETON POST-CRESCENT, pg. 1, col. 1 box: Rich Richard Says: WHOSE bread I eat, his song I sing. And those who are sustained by the A-B-C Classified Opportunities are singing a song in praise of Opportunity. Read them today! 22 September 1921, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE (GA), pg. 10, col. 4: The lawyer that is elected governor or to the legislature does not expect to remain there always, he knows that none of these officers are going to furnish permanent means for a livelihood, so while in office serving the people ostensibly, he is looking out for his big businesses for a job. "Whose bread I eat, whose song I sing." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- YOUR GUESS IS AS GOOD AS MINE On Pg. 394, Titelman says "the saying originated in the United States in the 1920s." Decatur Daily Review - 3/17/1930 ...huve, In the lASt 25 years. I wonder? YOUR GUESS IS AS GOOD AS mine. But it surely looks.....women were commenting, AS women do, on how GOOD everything tASted. The host had sampled.....IS K. and whose encouragement, faith and GOOD cheer give a slnglnf strength to the.....Cheyenne and took to All (hIS may be very GOOD and correct wlth the wlld tout folk will.. Decatur, Illinois Monday, March 17, 1930 678 k Fort Wayne News - 2/5/1916 ...and a dynamo T What are you calling "YOUR GUESS IS AS GOOD AS wAS the halt-absent reply.....I once had the pleASure of introducing YOUR GOOD father to my bankers in Chicago? It wAS.....have coal." "Yes; there IS coal, of a sort; GOOD enough for the cement kilns. For power.....with a hack load that I am carrying to thIS GOOD day; that I will probably go on carrying.. Fort Wayne, Indiana Saturday, February 05, 1916 917 k 5 February 1916, FORT WAYNE DAILY NEWS (Fort Wayne, Indiana), pg. 11, col. 3: "Your guess is as good as mine," was the half-absent reply. Lancaster Daily Eagle - 12/6/1927 ...IS invited to participate. YOUR GUESS IS AS GOOD AS the next one. Get YOUR GUESS Cards at.....number of thIS watch or making the nearest GUESS to it will win it On Saturday, Dec.....throws off the cause. S.S.S. IS sold at all GOOD drug stores in two sizes. The. larger.....I suffered from rheumatISm for a GOOD many years. At times my joints would.. Lancaster, Ohio Tuesday, December 06, 1927 795 k Sun Herald - 12/24/1925 ...Make a '1026 GUESS for YOURself; YOUR GUESS IS AS GOOD us anyone's provided YOUR.....and civil aviation development And, for GOOD meASure, there are the row between the.....In public worship It would seem that any GOOD American, Irrespective of race end creed.....Almighty God, who hASt given us thIS GOOD land for our heritage; we humbly beseech.. Lime Springs, Iowa Thursday, December 24, 1925 681 k Bismarck Tribune - 8/29/1917 ...win. be down or up AS the market goes. YOUR GUESS IS AS GOOD a? ours "but we think it.....out. These ASsets will stand (iarfield in GOOD .stead AS admin IStratzest to the.....b.old-( j [aj.Cy A. (lar.tield. who juade GOOD lie eouscuted to try one. its.....the.j clear eyes, ajid expressive moufh j j IS a mind AS vigorous AS hIS body, j I The.. Bismarck, North Dakota Wednesday, August 29, 1917 571 k (To be continued) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 29 08:33:18 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 03:33:18 EST Subject: Whose bread I eat (1859) Message-ID: Yeah, it's much earlier. From MAKING OF AMERICA. Author: Barnard, Henry, 1811-1900. Title: Pestalozzi and Pestalozzianism : life, educational principles, and methods, of John Henry Pestalozzi, with biographical sketches of several of his assistants and disciples / reprinted from the American journal of education ; ed. by Henry Barnard. Publication date: 1859. Collection: Making of America Books Pg. 85: "There is no need of any explanation and no harm done. It is an old proverb, Whose bread I eat, his praise I sing," said the bailiff, and shaking Kriecher by the hand, he said no more upon the subject, but asked the men whether Arner had been angry. Title: The Progressionists, Chapter IV-V Publication Info.: Catholic world. / Volume 15, Issue 90, Sept 1872, pp.766-783 Collection: Making of America Journal Articles Pg. 780: "What the men of money do, is well done, of course, for the proverb says, 'Whose bread I eat, his song I sing.'" From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 29 17:16:21 2003 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:16:21 -0500 Subject: "His cake is all 'dough'" (1860)--Query In-Reply-To: <200312290501.hBT51Lk8003978@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Gerald Cohen wrote: >>> What does this last clause mean? >Then "Bispham" comes next, you'd expect from his looks, >He was given to study, addicted to books, > And you'd little suspect there was much in the man, > Till you saw him at play -- then beat him who can. >His favorite position is on the first base, >And he stands like a statue, always right about face, > With his hands in a pair of thick gloves all encased, > Which never miss holding the ball once embraced. >And I pity the 'batter' who when the ball's fair, >If its short, tries to make the 'first base' when he's there. > The 'batter' itself may be good enough -- though > He's sure to be put out, and his cake is all 'dough.' <<< "Douglas G. Wilson" responded: >>> Just a speculation. "Dough" = the cake before it becomes a cake. So "his cake is dough" means "his cake is in the making" or "his cake has begun to be prepared". In this case, it means more or less "his doom is sealed". The "all" is a superfluous intensifier, I speculate. <<< It's a pun on "'batter'", which is used in quotes twice just before. Merriam-Webster Online distinguishes "batter" from "dough" by ingredients and thickness: >>> batter: 1 a : a mixture consisting chiefly of flour, egg, and milk or water and being thin enough to pour or drop from a spoon dough: 1 : a mixture that consists essentially of flour or meal and a liquid (as milk or water) and is stiff enough to knead or roll <<< AFAIK "batter" is used for lighter baked goods, like cakes and pastries, than "dough", which is used for bread. So if you try to bake a cake out of dough instead of batter, you won't succeed. I don't know how "first base" is meant to figure in the word play. It's in quotes in the last four lines, which are built around the pun, but not in its literal use in line 5 of the quoted section. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 29 17:57:45 2003 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:57:45 -0500 Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust In-Reply-To: <200312290501.hBT51Lk8003978@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Dale Coye writes: >>> In parts of the South they have /ju/ in variation with /iu/ and according to PEAS it used to be a folk pronunciation in NE-Upstate NY, but I believe it has now died out (this is in words like music, due, news in NE). But what's interesting about ee-yoo is that all dialects in the US have added it (at least that's my guess), so we have this diphthong existing in a single lexical item. <<< "ee-yoo" -- IPA [i(j)u] -- is not a diphthong, but a sequence of two vowels, with a glide in between that may be more or less prominent. Segmentally, it's no different from the vowel sequence in "I " or "rnite". Of course exclamations have different prosody from other speech, and may contain "phonemes" not found in the ordinary lexicon. Two well-known examples in American English are the ingressive alveolar click of "tsk, tsk" and the glottal stop that distinguishes the negative "uh-uh" from the positive "uh-huh". If [i(j)u] were a phoneme and we didn't already have it in "reunite" and possibly other words, "eeew" would join this list. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 29 18:48:48 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 13:48:48 -0500 Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:57 PM -0500 12/29/03, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > >"ee-yoo" -- IPA [i(j)u] -- is not a diphthong, but a sequence of two >vowels, with a glide in between that may be more or less prominent. Exactly. That's a bit clearer than my version last night, which stressed the fact that it's bisyllabic while true diphthongs aren't. >Segmentally, it's no different from the vowel sequence in "I " >or "rnite". > >Of course exclamations have different prosody from other speech, and may >contain "phonemes" not found in the ordinary lexicon. Two well-known >examples in American English are the ingressive alveolar click of "tsk, >tsk" also the domal/retroflex click ("whoa!") and lateral click ("giddy-up") used (or so I'm told) to get horses to stop and start respectively. These three clicks correspond to the consonants spelled "c", "q", and "x" in Xhosa. And there's a bilabial click used in some circles for teasing or mocking; Xhosa doesn't use such a click but I think Zulu may. >and the glottal stop that distinguishes the negative "uh-uh" from >the positive "uh-huh". The glottal stop is also crucial in uh-oh. Actually, the positive vs. negative signals (either the oral version or the nasal one, with closed lips) are also distinguished by tone, upstepping in the former and down- in the latter. (For me, using low-high with glottal stop, or high-low without, produces gibberish.) I take it that it's not a coincidence that both "uh-oh" and "uh-uh" (if that's the appropriate spelling)--as well as mh-mh (or whatever), i.e. the closed-mouth version of the denial indicator--involve both a glottal stop and a downward tonal sequence, while the affirmatives have no glottal stop and an upward sequence. larry From douglas at NB.NET Tue Dec 30 00:56:32 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:56:32 -0500 Subject: "His cake is all 'dough'" (1860)--Query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmmm, stupid me, I neglected to look in the standard references. Under "dough" (1.b.) in the OED, under "cake" in HDAS, under "cake" in the Century Dictionary (1889): "One's cake is [all] dough" = "One's project has failed". Used by Shakespeare pre-1600. Still used ca. 1900. Forgotten now? -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 30 04:28:43 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:28:43 -0500 Subject: F.T.L. (and "baby boomeranger") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:20 PM -0500 12/22/03, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >(And I only knew it as "faster than light".) > >>>From the NY Times: > > >>> > >December 22, 2003 >For More People in 20's and 30's, Home Is Where the Parents Are >By TAMAR LEWIN > > [...] > >Nancy Dye, president of Oberlin College, said that whereas most graduates >used to go straight on to graduate school, having chosen at least a >preliminary career path, many now stick around, uncertain of their >direction. A few years ago, she said, "students came up with a new term, >F.T.L. failure to launch." > >In interviews with dozens of 20-somethings, most say they share a sense >that there is no right time to have completed their education, lived on >their own or gotten married, that such fixed expectations have no place in >their lives. And many see it as beneficial to step slowly and gradually >into adult life. > In response to which a couple wrote this letter to the editor today: ============ To the Editor: Regarding your Dec. 22 news article about the "transitional adults" living with their parents, it seems that the baby boomers have raised a generation of baby boomerangers! Having raised six children, none of whom now live at home, we suddenly feel very lucky. DANIEL R. SZEKELY DEBORAH L. GORDON Anchorage, Dec. 22, 2003 ============ --There are a lot of cites for "baby boomerang", actually, but I don't see any offhand with the relevant meaning, and none at all for "baby boomeranger". L From douglas at NB.NET Tue Dec 30 04:37:47 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:37:47 -0500 Subject: F.T.L. (and "baby boomeranger") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >--There are a lot of cites for "baby boomerang", actually, but I >don't see any offhand with the relevant meaning, and none at all for >"baby boomeranger". > >L "Boomerang baby" is more usual, maybe. Mentioned here for example: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/08/wordwatch.htm -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 30 05:15:46 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 00:15:46 -0500 Subject: F.T.L. (and "baby boomeranger") In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031229233609.04a37400@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >>--There are a lot of cites for "baby boomerang", actually, but I >>don't see any offhand with the relevant meaning, and none at all for >>"baby boomeranger". >> >>L > >"Boomerang baby" is more usual, maybe. Mentioned here for example: > >http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/08/wordwatch.htm > >-- Doug Wilson Ah yes, but that doesn't play off "baby boomer" the way the letter-writers' version does. L From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 30 05:40:58 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 00:40:58 EST Subject: Southern by grace of God (1987); South rise (1949); Us chickens (1937) Message-ID: AMERICAN BY BIRTH, SOUTHERN BY THE GRACE OF GOD Who said it? The AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS (1997) doesn't have it. I don't know what Fred has. (LIBRARY OF CONGRESS) Southern by the grace of God [sound recording] : Lynyrd Skynyrd tribute tour, 1987. Universal City, Calif. : MCA, p1988. 1 sound disc : digital, stereo. ; 4 3/4 in. (CATNYP) Title Southern by the grace of God / Michael Andrew Grissom. Imprint Nashville, Tenn. (P.O. Box 158766, Nashville 37215) : Rebel Press, c1988 (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Gettysburg Times - 3/9/1988 ...raised: "American BY birth, SOUTHERN BY THE GRACE OF GOD." I was SOUTHE RN-raised but not.....born; SOUTHERN, that is, BY accident OF my parents.....sitting beside a slab OF country ham. SOUTHERN THEologians will tell you that THE .....to dig up. And THEy eat snails. Except in SOUTHERN France, OF course, where THEy.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Wednesday, March 09, 1988 602 k 9 March 1988, GETTYSBURG TIMES (Gettysburg, Pennsylvania), pg. 3A, col. 1: _"Aigs," grits and snails_ By T. W. BURGER There's an expression popular in the South where I was raised: "American by birth, Southern by the grace of God." (AUGUSTA ARCHIVES) 29 June 1989, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE (GA), pg. 7, col. 1: You've heard the phrase, "American by birth, Southern by the grace of God." (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... A common bumper sticker in the South is: American by birth Southern by the grace of God The South likes being part of the Union as much as the North likes ... talk.politics.mideast - Sep 14, 1990 by cms at dragon.uucp ... birth... Communications Hardware Test and Evaluation | Southern by the | Grace of God | | Opinions don't necessary | reflect my own... ... comp.dcom.modems - Jun 1, 1989 by Jeff Kilpatrick ... sound. This particular Morse performance is included on the "Southern by the Grace of God" tribute album by Lynyrd Skynyrd. Steve ... rec.music.misc - Apr 8, 1989 by Jim Greenlee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SSOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN ADS-L has had this post: >> If the Ancestry.com jockeys (Barry & Sam) are looking for things to search> on that database, here are nine sayings for which I would be interested in> whether Ancestry has anything earlier than the dates indicated:>> The butler did it (anything before 1938)> Not tonight, Josephine (anything before 1911)> In God we trust; all others pay cash (anything before 1890)> May you live in interesting times (anything before 1939)> The South will rise again (anything before 1950)> Defeat from the jaws of victory (anything before 1891)> Meanwhile, back at the ranch (anything before 1944)> There's nobody here but us chickens (anything before 1963)> Close, but no cigar (anything before 1935)>> >> Fred Shapiro And this answer: Subject: South still not rising over at ancestry "Nothing on ancestry.com from 1910-1952 for "The South will rise again." (AUGUSTA ARCHIVES) 16 February 1956, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, Pg. 1, col. 3: _South has already risen!_ By Lloyd Parker People who have continually said, "The South will rise again," shouldn't change tgheir line. The South has already risen! (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Berkshire Evening Eagle - 12/6/1950 ...of SOUTHern solidarity. "The SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN" has had a flurry among orchestras.....there is no cluinceja fad. but. the Oltl SOUTH is now in 'if making them understand I.....and a violin concerto. In 19.10 and I AGAIN in 1914 he visited the United His last.....taciturn. Confederate Flag Fad Sweeping Old SOUTH can. bo done only through music." And.. Pittsfield, Massachusetts Wednesday, December 06, 1950 676 k Reno Evening Gazette - 9/17/1949 ...Confederate Money, Boys, the SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN." This song is delivered with.....never fight on foreign soil AGAIN. But the SOUTH Is beginning lo feel pretty cocky about.....afford some indication to the temper of the SOUTH. The gong Is called, with charming.....und upset curs all ai'ound, all around. The SOUTH all thp terrific fuss that was ntlrrod.. Reno, Nevada Saturday, September 17, 1949 794 k 17 September 1949, RENO EVENING GAZETTE (Reno, Nevada), pg. 4, col.6: _--Bob Ruark_ _It's a Wonderfil Life_ ATLANTA, Sept. 17.--There is a very popular song down here these days, whcih may afford some indication to the temper of the south. The song is called, with charming directness: "Save Your Confederate Money, Boys, the South Will Rise Again." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- "AIN'T NOBODY HERE BUT US CHICKENS" ADS-L has seen this post: ""Ain't Nobody Here But Us Chickens," written by Joan Whitney and Alex Kramer, was recorded by Louis Jordan on 6-26-46, according to the liner notes to The Best of Louis Jordan. John Baker And this post: "Fred, Nothing on 'Nobody here 'cept us chickens.' from 1963-1930. I'll do this one back to the 1880's as it sounds like it should be older. Sam (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Edwardsville Intelligencer - 12/23/1937 ...of 'Who's replied: "There's nojody here BUT US CHICKENS, boss." Nojody knew that she had.....sang out instantly, There's nobody here BUT US shoes." One day she was singing as she.....you. That is import ant. Most of you expect US to be good looking, BUT on that score we.....to make love to US the first time you take US out Not becaUSe we have BUT becaUSe it is.. Edwardsville, Illinois Thursday, December 23, 1937 678 k Indiana Evening Gazette - 12/15/1937 ...of "Who's replied: "There's nobody here BUT US CHICKENS, boss." Nobody knew that she had.....sang out instantly. "There's nobody here BUT US shoes." One day she was singing as she.....colors are the thint: for country wear, BUT not elsewhere. 8. Don't wear your clothes.....beHave there is somebody in this cupboard." BUT the stowaway.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, December 15, 1937 789 k 15 December 1937, INDIANA EVENING GAZETTE (Indiana, Pennsylvania), pg. 10, col. 3: _Your Children_ By OLIVE ROBERTS BARTON (...) _Surprising Memories_ Deedie had heard the story, perhaps months before, of the chicken thief who, to the owner's demand of "Who's there?" replied: "There's nobody here...but us chickens, boss." Nobody knew that she had understood. Besides all those weeks had elapsed. One day she hid in the closet. Her mother went about pretending to hunt. "Where's Deedie?" Finally she winked at me and said, "I do believe there is somebody in this cupboard." But the stowaway sang out instantly, "There's nobody here but us shoes." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 30 07:15:37 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:15:37 EST Subject: "Bad publicity" (1931) & "Spell my name right" (1928) Message-ID: My apologies again for the errors in the thumbnails. I copy directly from the scrambled material provided. Apologies again for the spelling errors I added in the last post. You see, they're supposed to have twelve judges, and they have six, and there are over 200 people waiting after the place has officially closed, and it's twelve hours nonstop again of parking tickets, and I work again tomorrow, and the again next day... Maybe in my spare time each day at 5 a.m. I can write a Food Dictionary. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BAD PUBLICITY See "bad publicity" in the ADS-L archives, from 2001. It's listed as "a case for Fred Shapiro." Fred Shapiro responded with this: All right, here's my response. This is the earliest example I have of the"publicity" saying:1950 Hortense Powdermaker _Hollywood the Dream Factory_ 241 The Hollywoodproverb that "The only bad publicity is no publicity" would seem to haveconsiderable truth behind it, even if publicity alone is not generallysufficient to make a star. Fred Shapiro Then, Fred Shapiro added this: I previously posted a response about "the only bad publicity is nopublicity" and similar phrases. Subsequently, I have come across thefollowing in Brewer's Quotations:"ALL PUBLICITY IS GOOD PUBLICITY. An almost proverbial saying, which I first heard in the 1960s but which isprobably as old as the public relations industry. Alternative formsinclude: 'There's no such thing as bad publicity', 'There's no such thingas over-exposure -- only bad exposure', 'Don't read it -- measure it' and'I don't care what the papers say about me as long as they spell my nameright'. The latter saying has been attributed to the American Tammanyleader 'Big Tim' Sullivan. Concise Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs includes it in the form 'Anypublicity is good publicity' but finds no example before 1974. However,in Dominic Behan's _My Brother Brendan_ (1965), the Irish playwright isquoted as saying: 'There is no such thing as bad publicty except your own obituary.' And James Agee in _Ego_ 7 (for 19 February 1944) quotes ArnoldBennett, 'All praise is good', and adds: 'I suppose the same could be saidabout publicity.'" Fred Shapiro Then, George Thompson added this: In January of 2001 I set off a train of discussion among us regardingthe antiquity of the expression "There's no such thing as bad publicity". I then had only a very recent citation to contribute ,along with the statement that I had heard it or variants of it at onetime or another in the past, going back to the mid-1960s. Fred Shapiro was able to produce a version from 1950 and a passage from 1943 that seemed to allude to it. Others also chipped in. I can now contribute this inversion of the phrase, from 1934: Without publicity it is doubtful if Alphonse Capone ever would havebeen sent to prison. It is axiomatic among all intelligent criminalsthat all publicity is bad publicity. Stanley Walker, City Editor, N.Y.: Frederick A. Stokes, 1934, p. 31. This is one of those expressions that are so highly variable in formthat they are very difficult to trace. I associate it with showbusiness, and in that racket, publicity is always good, but theexpression can be phrased either as an affirmative or anegative: "there's no such thing as bad publicity" (or a variant) asopposed to "all publicity is good publicity"/"every knock is a boost"(or variants). In criminal circles, publicity = heat, and heat isalways bad. GAT (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Daily Northwestern - 7/14/1931 ...York the saying is, "NO PUBLICITY is BAD PUBLICITY. Anything else is fine." Madam.....are d-awn out. Acids and cause of pain, BAD odors. itching, burning and are destroyed.....Had a Word for i the assumption being, NO doubt. that the lattrr title was more.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Tuesday, July 14, 1931 544 k 14 July 1931, DAILY NORTHWESTERN (Oshkosh, Wisconsin), pg. 5, col. 4: _My New York_ By James Aswell (...) And, curiously, customers brave choking dust and precariously poised bricks to dart from limousines into their ship. In New York the saying is, "No publicity is bad publicity. Anything else is fine." Daily Northwestern - 9/19/1931 ...do NOt lack Ingenuity. NO PUBLICITY is BAD PUBLICITY. That is the cardinal presumption.....of times year An ambitious wooer of PUBLICITY got in touch with one of Mr.....they ousted him they meant just that and NO "maybe" either. NO longer is "Tommy" the.....portrayed as slightly ridiculous, It makes NO difference. The lineage is achieved. The.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Saturday, September 19, 1931 782 k 9 September 1931, DAILY NORTHWESTERN (Oshkosh, WIsconsin), pg. 9, col. 2: _My New York_ By James Aswell New York--The fevered operations of Manhattan press agents are a source of perpetual amusement, admiration and dismay to the observer. The brides of ballyhoo lack humor, but they do not lack ingenuity. No publicity is bad publicity. That is the cardinal presumption; and if clients are portrayed as slightly ridiculous, it makes no difference. The lineage is achieved. The scrapbooks bulge. This is a characteristic episode which undoubtedly occurs, with variations, thousands of times a year. Lethbridge Herald - 5/5/1954 ...don't appreciate the fact thai even BAD PUBLICITY is better NO PUBLICITY. 3Snd you, I.....course, with NO thanks being necessary: the BAD PUBLICITY is NOt expected, and of course.....heaven the moment it feels it is receiving' BAD PUBLICITY or a raw deal. In short, the.....if it weren't for the tons of free PUBLICITY they receive from news papers radio.. Great Bend Daily Tribune - 11/13/1961 ...adage: "The only thing worse than BAD PUBLICITY is no PUBLICITY at all." It could.....institution has come in for a peck of BAD PUBLICITY, it has reaped a bushel of good.....project. It seems that things got so BAD in Nevada that on the Halloween of 1946 a.....the training school hospital more favorable PUBLICITY than it has ever before enjoyed. Dr.. Times Recorder - 12/2/1973 ...play, he said, "because no PUBLICITY is BAD PUBLICITY, and what the hell, you're going to.....with Etleen Heckart 'You know I did a BAD western with Martene Dietricfe once.. Zanesville, Ohio Sunday, December 02, 1973 602 k Fond Du Lac Reporter - 4/8/1976 ...belief that for an entertainment act, BAD PUBLICITY is better than NO PUBLICITY.....to each of the three performances. Sounds BAD snuffed aster Time for family get.....response from Mercury-PhoNOgram Records' PUBLICITY department regarding the Ohio.....SCHNEIDER ORCHESTRA SATURDAY APRIL 10th NO COVER CHARGE FREE BEER P ACK E D 10 PIECE.. Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin Thursday, April 08, 1976 435 k Gettysburg Times - 3/29/1990 ...Barry also saidhe didn'tbelieve that BAD PUBLICITY was better than no PUBLICITY. By.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Thursday, March 29, 1990 768 k Chronicle Telegram - 7/12/1995 ...the adage that there's no such thing as BAD PUBLICITY when it reported that more than.. Elyria, Ohio Wednesday, July 12, 1995 575k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SPELL YOUR NAME RIGHT In the 2001 "It's a case for Fred Shapiro" post, George Thompson added this: I find in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, 5th ed., 1999 and theOxford Dictionary of Phrase, Saying and Quotation, 1997, the samecitation, attributed to Brendan Behan: all publicity is good publicity, except your own obituary. I think that this is obviously Behan's elaboration of a previously familiar expression. The ODQ further dates the idea to the early 20th century. The 1986 edition of Partridge's Dictionary of Catchphrases gives it with the concluding qualification "so long as they spell your name right" anddates it to the mid 1930s. This is the form familiar to me.Hamilton's Dictionary of Canadian Quotations cites a minor-league Canadian politician as expressing the idea without using either canonical formulation. He says, in effect, that since people only read the headlines in the newspaper, the trick is to get your name mentioned, and whether the reference in favorable or otherwise inimmaterial. I well remember that a prizefight promoter from Boston,who staged well club fights in Portland, Maine in the late 1960s expressed the thought in another formulation: every knock is a boost.(I was living in Portland at the time, attended most of the fightshows, and read this in the Portland Press-Herald.) How early can this be dated? GAT (WWW,NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Fort Wayne Sentinel - 3/22/1895 ...can you do for me? Why 'ou can SPELL MY NAME RIGHT in you. account of MY death.' 'The.....who ever afte; took pains to SPELL his NAME RIGHT, and that's what I want you to do.....have been able to give this law, MY im pression and it is but a vague im.....of tho magical growth of egion nndor the SPELL of nu enchanter's In 1 380 the great.. Fort Wayne, Indiana Friday, March 22, 1895 876 k Edwardsville Intelligencer - 10/18/1928 ...if you must this old gray beard but SPELL MY NAME RIGHT on. the casualty list. t t.....to give them now and little, else to do, MY daughters all are women grown, MY sons as.....Even though you are not suffering from a SPELL o ay fever at present, you can often.....of ficials and interested property owners, RIGHT of way fo construction of route ICO.. Edwardsville, Illinois Thursday, October 18, 1928 620 k 18 October 1928, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville, Illinois), pg.4, col. 6: Shoot if you must this old, gray beard--but spell my name right on the casualty list. Charleston Daily Mail - 12/2/1934 ...O. K., shoot. I don't mind but please SPELL MY NAME RIGHT I'm Jack Benny and not Jack.....impressions oC arid some of the things MY work. i I was not thrilled at MY first.....in broadcasting 1 feel about to New NAME of Trio Doesn't Fool Fans Gertrude.....before he is satisfied with the result. His RIGHT hand assistant in these long sessions.. Charleston, West Virginia Sunday, December 02, 1934 1177 k 2 December 1934, CHARLESTON DAILY MAIL (Charleston, West Virginia), pg. 10, col. 4: "Oh that's O. K., shoot. I don't mind but please spell my name right--I'm Jack Benny and not Jack Denny of orchestra 'ennys. Get it right. Benny--B, as in Bean Soup--E, as in Sharkee, the fighter--N, as in Knickers--another N, as in pneumonia and Y, as in the state of Yoming." Reno Evening Gazette - 3/21/1950 ...America say abovrt me so long as they SPELL MY NAME RIGHT. Others on Time's were Sen.....party. I am flattered that he considers MY opposition worthy of his attention. I don.....Monday on a charge of falsifying her NAME and address on. doctor's prescriptions.....campaign to the 3950 program. Shown left to RIGHT are Miss Marion Barfknecht, physical.. Reno, Nevada Tuesday, March 21, 1950 752 k Nevada State Journal - 8/30/1958 ...say about you as long as they SPELL YOUR NAME RIGHT. The book Jane came across was not.....the owner wrote in his book was his own NAME and the NAMEs and addresses of his.....area. Crash Yidim Held RE-ELECT AS YOUR Fish Game Commissioner REWARD For.....those little books you passed among YOUR friends back when you were in grade.. Reno, Nevada Saturday, August 30, 1958 710 k 30 August 1958, NEVADA STATE JOURNAL, pg. 3, col. 3: What appeared to evade the grasp of the school authorities was the fact many more "slam books" were initiated by the slamee himself as a sort of Gallup Poll-in-the-rough, the idea being a grammar school version of the adult concept of it doesn't matter what they say about you as long as they spell your name right. Newark Advocate - 2/13/1959 ...York, used to say: "As -long as they SPELL MY NAME RIGHT they can say anything about me.....reads, roughly from left to RIGHT, with MY good friend Holmes playing deep RIGHT.....up his daily newspaper, secretly hopes his NAME will be favorably mentioned by one or.....Alexander may appear at the conclusion of MY says a distinguished Senator. Thus do the.. Newark, Ohio Friday, February 13, 1959 666 k Coshocton Tribune - 3/24/1976 ...they write, as long as thfcy SPELL YOUR NAME RIGHT. Hays gets furious ujben he sees.....his NAME misSPELLed. It sometimes is printed.....his CB microphone: parking lot, you got YOUR ears Later, in his Capitol office.....a Hays speech. replied Hays, at YOUR peril. Gross sat down. was a great he.. Coshocton, Ohio Wednesday, March 24, 1976 542 k Chronicle Telegram - 10/3/1995 ...bad to her. Hey, as long as they SPELL YOUR NAME RIGHT, RIGHT? Doing the RIGHT thing.....judge ruled Friday that the rapper real NAME Calvin Broadus must wear an electronic.....think that has been on video before, you're RIGHT. It was released in 1988 for a short.....can talk to about never being mentioned in YOUR magazine again? I'm serious bad or the.. Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, October 03, 1995 515 k From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Dec 30 07:23:51 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:23:51 -0500 Subject: turkey=three strikes in a row in bowling Message-ID: I went bowling with my brothers over the holidays. I threw three strikes in a row(in an otherwise poor showing). The digital display showed a turkey. So, where and when did this term originate in the bowling sense? M-W gets a pass as they cite it as meaning #3. OED doesn't care, if I read it right. I almost give up on using Ancestry. Sam Clements From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 30 07:44:10 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:44:10 EST Subject: "Don't sweat the small stuff" (1964) Message-ID: More "sweat the small stuff." These are the four earliest hits. Again, a comic balloon is first! CAUTION: Again, the "1949" hit here is actually from "1993." DON'T USE IT! (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Coshocton Tribune - 12/22/1975 ...Junior you'd better learn not to SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF. Save your anger for THE major.....and can be confined to a backyard or a SMALL amount of acreage. Carmody said worms.....of THE lind wood. THE top tier in THE pyramids hold THE nativity scene and THE.....to remove THE pan from THE burner or turn THE unit off at THE end of THE cooking period.. Coshocton, Ohio Monday, December 22, 1975 756 k Gettysburg Times - 5/4/1979 ...with letting THEm have it. Don't SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF, Honey. How young is too young.....THE Ringling broTHErs. A dozen or so of THE museum's 27 buildings are THE very ones.....letter. NOW I know THE best solution is THE following: Tell Ed you will no longer be.....mail system, slows up delivery and costs THE senders very little. When THE junk is.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Friday, May 04, 1979 462 k Indiana Evening Gazette - 11/5/1964 ...FOR WHAT AND DID UK.E THEY "DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF" RUSTY.'-. BE WfflENT WITH FOR.....talks .with THE Russians. This will be THE first time in this generation, at least.....firms. Among THE passenger ships are THE Leonardo da Vinci and THE Cristoforo.....to "revitalize THE visit probably would be THE Republican party in THE between March and.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, November 05, 1964 786 k 5 November 1964, INDIANA EVENING GAZETTE (Indiana, Pennsylvania), pg. 28, col. 5 (The name of the comic isn't here. It appears to be signed by Ernst Saunders. "Mary Worth" was written by John Saunders and Kenneth Ernest--ed.): DISTRAUGHT WOMAN: OH, JIM!...I DESPISE MYSELF!...FOR WHAT I SAID...AND DID! MAN: IT'S OKAY HONEY!...LIKE THEY SAY..."DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF" Chronicle Telegram - 6/11/1949 ...squabbling, let party honchos SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF, use your emotional clout to sell.....lower taxes, bogus optimism and nice, SMALL wars. You can detect Gergen's efforts.....that THE new highway should follow 'THE eastern route, locating it on THE Elyria.....Route 113. It also would reduce THE cost of THE industrial parkway Elyria will build to.. Elyria, Ohio Saturday, June 11, 1949 519 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 30 09:03:54 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 04:03:54 EST Subject: Food of/for the Gods (1911); Heavenly Hash (1893) Message-ID: A heavenly re-check with the new search engine. "Food of/for the Gods" and "Heavenly Hash" both go well with nun's tummies and the bishop's nose. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FOOD OF/FOR THE GODS I used "dates" as an additional keyword. My earliest had been 1914. Sikeston Herald - 12/23/1948 ...in Asia centuries ago and was called FOOD OF THE GODS. THE round little filbert.....uncertain, for methods OF keeping track OF DATES during THE era when Christ was born.....and THEre was no money in THE house for FOOD. So, she ga THEred THE cones and sold.....by our modern methods OF keeping track OF DATES, would be 7 B. C. Thus, Christ's birth.. Sikeston, Missouri Thursday, December 23, 1948 591 k Indianapolis Star - 4/12/1911 ...Indianapolis. FOOD OF THE GODS. One-pound OF Engllshpwamuts half p6und OF DATES.....crumbs and sugar, THEn add THE walnuts and DATES and THE eggs Well beaten. Pour THE.....cupfuls flottr, seeded ralglny one cupful DATES, one teaspoonful OF soda, .two.....City and John Clements OF Richmond will THE last OF THE week to be THE house guests.. Indianapolis, Indiana Wednesday, April 12, 1911 914 k 12 April 1911, INDIANAPOLIS STAR (IND), pg. 9?, col. 5: FOOD OF THE GODS. One pound of English walnuts and one-half of dates, chopped; two cupfuls of sugar, ten tablespoonfuls of cracjer crumbs, two teaspoonfuls of baking powder, one-half dozen eggs. Mix baking powder with the crumbs and sugar, then add the walnuts and dates and the eggs well beaten. Pour the mixture in a pan abouttwo inches in depth, that has been well greased and floured and bake one-half-hour. When cold serve with whipped cream. MRS. BENJAMIN SCOTT. Clayton, Ind. Appleton Post Crescent - 10/16/1937 ...sandwich and an Ice cream soda arc THE FOOD OF THE GODS. i How cruel, THE n, to.....For yardages sec patterns. havc will have DATES.. lustrated stcp-by-stcp sewing Andif.....are in every particular table setting, FOOD, and women's dresses exactly THE same.....st.reetsn I plainly size, name, address and DATES nice style number boyp> thc-v havc thcm.. Appleton, Wisconsin Saturday, October 16, 1937 854 k Star And Sentinel - 5/13/1916 ...an appeal for good laughter, which is THE FOOD OF THE GODS. A wise man has warned us to.....OF THE National Guard OF Pennsylvania, DATES and locations OF camps wera announced.....require THE asilstance OF available plant FOOD if THEy to produce large yields OF high.....T. "SOUGH OX A rrverusement. PLACES AND DATES FOR N. G. P. ENCAMPMENTS Gettysburg Not.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Saturday, May 13, 1916 860 k Chronicle Telegram - 2/28/1933 ...R. D. No. 1, La Grange, Ohio. FOOD FOR THE GODS 3-4 cup nut meats 3-4 cup DATES yolks of.....is Clark commented. cold outside, and THE FOOD inside is at least regular. I'd raTHEr.....18 ounces graham crackers 1 dozen DATES 1 can crushed pineapple (20-oz. Break.....E. M. KNOWLES. Elyria, 0., R. D. 1. AXGEL FOOD CAKE 1 1-2 cups egg whites. 1 1-2 cups.. Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, February 28, 1933 793 k Sheboygan Press - 2/22/1929 ...bake in a slow oven FOR three hours. FOOD FOR THE GODS Six eggs 2 cups granulated sugar.....powder, pound nut meats, Vi pound stoned DATES, few grains salt, 1 teaspoon vanilla.....THE diet Authority explains thin delicious FOOD Wi: V.'KCKN ri.Y .iskcd THE FOOD.....Chop nuts and DATES, Mix and sift sugar and baking powder.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, February 22, 1929 620 k Daily Review - 2/8/1914 ...dense and THEre is corn bread which is fit FOOD FOR THE GODS. Of course this bulletin.....bread; corn meal muffins; corn muffins with DATES; custard corn corn meal soft corn bread.....of encouragingTHE ITSO at corn human FOOD THE United States department of.....to Bulletin Ho. which tells about corn as a FOOD FOR pigs. With plenty of both corn meal.. Decatur, Illinois Sunday, February 08, 1914 442 k Daily Northwestern - 2/29/1928 ...freight train, witnesses said. FOOD FOR THE GODS. Two cups sugar, one cup DATES j of pork.....Agatay was killed and THE thre'e members of THE insurgent group were arrested FOR THE.....when THE POEMS THAT LIVE THE SE, THE sea THE sea THE open sea THE blue, THE fresh, THE.....with >4 yard of contrasting j material FOR facing on collar and cuffs. THE of THE.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Wednesday, February 29, 1928 898 k Newark Advocate - 2/23/1929 ...tatoes, teamed spinach, whole wheat bread, "FOOD FOR THE GODS." milk, tea. Stuffed pork.....bit. THE house has a chaperone who buys THE FOOD THE girls order when THEir classes.....that raTHEr looks as if THE mills of THE GODS had thlng to do about THE matter, after.....THEy pay THE same room rent, but save on FOOD, laundry and oTHEr extras. Eight.. Newark, Ohio Saturday, February 23, 1929 829 k Indianapolis Star - 9/10/1922 ...is celestial, olympian, ambrosial, truly a FOOD FOR THE GODS. Its ingredients are.....and cities. THE history of bridge building DATES from THE most ancient races known to.....entirely without her allotted portion -of FOOD, which had to-be served to THE unwelcome.....Washington street bridge, THE city paid FOR three spans while THE county paid FOR THE.. Indianapolis, Indiana Sunday, September 10, 1922 1276 k Stevens Point Daily Journal - 10/2/1915 ...London MailCorn as FOOD. Corn is really a FOOD FOR THE GODS. In nutritive value it is.....3 per cent as much protein. Much of THE FOOD value of wheat is sacrificed in.....couldn't cook, she broke dishes, she wasted FOOD, she wasn't neat, and she was Impudent 1.....from THE only exit of THE cave and skirted THE souTHErn wall of THE range, looking FOR.. Stevens Point, Wisconsin Saturday, October 02, 1915 708 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- HEAVENLY HASH A little bit more of heaven. See the archives, where it is described as "new" in 1893. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Daily Review - 1/27/1893 ...author. .....02 An unruly member...... 03 HEAVENLY HASH......... 10 Uncommon edibles.. Decatur, Illinois Friday, January 27, 1893 499 k 27 January 1893, DAILY REVIEW (Decatur, Illinois), pg. 8?, col. 1: CONUNDRUM SUPPER. The following is the menu for the conundrum supper, given by the ladies of the M. E. church at the residence of Rev. Davis Thursday evening: All things to all men...05 A distinguished author...02 An unruly member...03 Heavenly hash...10 Uncommon edibles...05 Tabby's party...01 Fruit of the vine..02 Picklets...01 Young man's sweetheart...04 Impertinence...02 Boston's overthrow...03 A cold vowel...05 Spring's offering...01 Staff of life...01 Stevens Point Daily Journal - 9/7/1896 ...Watch his window for the latest. What is HEAVENLY HASH Judge Cats was in Milwaukee.. Stevens Point, Wisconsin Monday, September 07, 1896 487 k 7 September 1896, STEVENS POINT DAILY JOURNAL (Stevens Point, Wisconsin), pg. 4?, col. 3: Chewing candies--cream, molasses and chocolate--all first-class, and plantation drops at the M. H. Chase home made candy store. Watch his window for the latest. What is heavenly hash? From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 30 13:46:59 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 08:46:59 -0500 Subject: Death Before Dishonor (1875); Rock/Hard Place (1960); Blacker the Berry (1961) In-Reply-To: <7e.44073595.2d20e201@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE > > Pg. 25. Titelman's first citation is 1984. Now used for "Iraq." Note that OED has this back to 1921. Keep up the great work on phrases, Barry! Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 30 16:31:55 2003 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 11:31:55 -0500 Subject: From the NY Times Message-ID: >From the N.Y. Times "Metropolitan Diary" column, Monday, 2003-12-29, p. B2 Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company Dear Diary: My wife and I were standing in line, waiting to be seated in a delicatessen in the Washington area. A woman approached me and asked, "Are you on line?" I responded: "Oh, you must be from New York. In this area we would say `Are you in line?" "No," she replied. "I'm from Philadelphia. If I were from New York, I would just have cut in front of you." Lee Sigelman From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 30 19:27:47 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 14:27:47 -0500 Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates Message-ID: In this pre-WOTY season, I thought there might be some interest in a compilation of items provided by students in my undergraduate Structure and History of English Words class, extracted from the NEW-Js (New English Word Journals) I had them compile. Some of these appear in published lexicons, others don't (and maybe shouldn't). A number of them of course are blends, including the ubiquitous _metrosexual_ and _recoc(k)ulous_ as well as the older-hat _hasbian_ ('ex-lesbian') and _faux-hawk_ ('imitation mohawk haircut', as discussed on the list a while back), and also... _flexitarian_ 'a vegetarian who makes exceptions for special occasions' _manscaping_ (apparently big on "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy") _metrodox_ 'modern orthodox Jew' _tomacco_ (apparently first appeared in the Simpsons, but has since been formulated in the real world, as a hybrid/graft of a tomato plant onto tobacco roots; it bore fruit but unfortunately was almost certainly poisonous) _pharming_ 'producing medically active substances through creation of transgenic plants or animals' _egosurf_ 'to try to find references to oneself in search engines', e.g. to autogoogle _celebutante_ (popularized by the TV show "The Simple Life") _carcoon_ (a car with the comforts of home built in) _cankles_ (what fat people have instead of distinct calves and ankles, from "Shallow Hal") _craptacular_ (what it sounds like) Some current slang terms with which I was unfamiliar: _(to be/get) moded_ 'mocked, made an ass of' _nonner_ 'one who doesn't x', for some contextually salient x _duppie_ 'depressed urban professional' _sketch_ 'a sketchy, suspicious or shady character' _gank_ 'filch', as in "I'm gonna gank some of your fries" [origin?] _punk_ (v.) 'to pull a prank on someone pretentious', apparently from an MTV show _brick_ (adj.) 'very cold' (of weather) One student cited (as non-current slang) _Gettysburg address_ as an early 1900's term for 'grand slam', which it would have predated; the allusion is of course to "four score". (I did find this on one web site.) Another pointed out _scrip_, medical jargon for "prescription" that isn't yet listed in a number of dictionaries (although I'm sure it is in others). One mentioned _algoreithm_, a cutesy Republican coinage circa Nov. 2000, defined as 'any method of calculation performed repeatedly until a desired result is obtained'--I must have missed this at the time. More seriously, someone else volunteered triarchic, as applied to a particular theory of consciousness or intelligence; evidently not listed in the usual sources, although it's been around for a while. An inevitable retronym: _outernet_ (for books, magazines, and other non-electronic media). And a new retronymic sense of _extracellular_ 'pertaining to the world outside one's cell-phone conversation'. And finally, in no particular order, some entries from the why-didn't-hold-off-until-the-instructor's-kids-are-out-of-college department... _'motential_ ("He's straight, but he's got 'motential") _pomosexual_ (yup, post-modern, with irrelevant boundaries between fuzzy categories) _heteroflexible_ vs. _homoflexible_ (with the prefix apparently designating where one is coming from) _cooter-booter_ ('a woman who interferes with another woman's flirtation efforts', based on the well-established cock-block) _(get some) neck_ (converse of "give head") _skeet_ 'ejaculate' _homo-hop_ ('gay-based hip-hop', as opposed to the earlier blend with "sock hop") _cliteracy_ 'familiarity with a woman's sexual needs' _moobs_ 'bulbous male pectoral region' (presumably requiring a manzeer or bro, as proposed some time ago on Seinfeld) _bridesman_, _groomsmaid_ (for nonconventionally-gendered members of the wedding) _lacrosstitute, puck fuck_ (for groupies of the respective male athletic teams) _DILF_ 'dad I'd like to fuck' (as evaluated by female undergraduates during Parents' Weekend, based on well-established MILF) _dipthong_ 'low-cut woman's undergarment' _jelq, jelqing_ (eponym? acronym? African or Arabic-derived, as web sites suggest? --a genericized trade-name for a penis enlargement exercise device) ...and, on the basis of the earlier Yale (and elsewhere?) slang item _sexile_, _sincarcerated_ ('trapped in inner room of walk-through double by roommate and significant other') _sexit_ ("The new couple discreetly sexited the party") Larry From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Tue Dec 30 19:38:21 2003 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight, MLIS) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 11:38:21 -0800 Subject: turkey=three strikes in a row in bowling In-Reply-To: <000501c3cea5$e10f2e20$7627a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: Maybe a start (maybe a waste of ADS-L bandwidth?): The Johns Hopkins Newsletter, Nov 18, 1999 http://www.jhu.edu/~newslett/11-18-99/Quiz/ ...what is the origin of the term "turkey" in bowling? Rumor has it that the phrase originated in the meat-packing plants of Chicago. Around Christmas time, workers gathered in the long corridors for semi-illicit after-hours bowl-a-ramas. Winners were given prize turkeys to take home for their holiday dinners. This tradition led to the present-day term "turkey" in bowling. It describes a particularly successful feat. (Dubious, I'd say.) Ancestry.com Evening Bulletin (Decatur, Illinois) > 1896 > December > 26 [Sorry, couldn't make out the page number] Bowled for Game. Pleasant Pastimes at the Turner Hall Christmas Day. Several Gentlemen of the Turner society had a bowling match at the Turner bowing alley on Christmas day. Three turkeys, four ducks and two geese were purchased and put up for prizes for the best bowling. Geo. L_tzenberger, two duck and one turkey; Tony Walser one turkey and one goose, and F. W. Kipp won one goose. From another rr.com subscriber... http://home.kc.rr.com/lions/knowwhat.htm ...There is no recorded derivation of this term but Chuck Pezzana, the historian of the Professional Bowlers Association offers a likely origin. During the Great Depression of the 1930s many bowling alleys began to hold sweepstakes events during the holiday seasons of Thanksgiving and Christmas offering food as gifts to the winners. The common award for bowling three strikes in a row was a live turkey. If a person accomplished this feat his or her teammates would all shout, "turkey!" letting the proprietor know that the prize had been won. ... (Didn't find a history page at pba.org.) Slightly OT. From Wikipedia Turkey bowling, in which the participants throw frozen turkeys along the aisles of supermarkets to knock down 2-litre soft drink bottles, is not a sanctioned sport. Definitely OT. While looking in Ancestry.com for 'meatpacker bowling', a _Wash Tubs_ cartoon popped up with the line "What's the matter Ick? You're pale as a meatpacker's tombstone!" Meatpacker's tombstone? -jk At 11:23 PM 12/29/03, Sam Clements wrote: >I went bowling with my brothers over the holidays. I threw three strikes in >a row(in an otherwise poor showing). The digital display showed a turkey. > >So, where and when did this term originate in the bowling sense? M-W gets a >pass as they cite it as meaning #3. OED doesn't care, if I read it right. > >I almost give up on using Ancestry. > >Sam Clements From douglas at NB.NET Tue Dec 30 23:45:25 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:45:25 -0500 Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >_gank_ 'filch', as in "I'm gonna gank some of your fries" [origin?] I believe it's probably an abbreviated form of "gangster" (transitive verb), which of course is often pronounced "gankster". "Gangster" basically = "take by intimidation", I suppose (picture the gangsters swaggering in and eating all the fries ... nobody's got the nerve to object), or more generally just "take"/"grab". Here is this transitive verb "gangster" on the Web: <<"When we lost in Los Angeles in seven games in 1988, Bill Laimbeer and I went into the Lakers' locker room and gangstered a bottle of their champagne and we sat in our shower and bawled our eyes out, because we thought we were the better team and should have won. And we vowed to each other the next year we were going to win it.">> http://www.hoophall.com/features/isiah_thomas.htm -- Doug Wilson From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 31 00:10:43 2003 From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 16:10:43 -0800 Subject: "adVERsary"? Message-ID: I had the following question from someone I know at Microsoft. I've never heard the "adVERsary" pron, and the OED gives only a version with first-syllable stress. Is this simply a mistake, or what? Geoff Nunberg > >I've noticed a strange phenomenon in the crypto community. When >describing cryptographic protocols, it seems that most people in the >field talk about adVERsaries. I first heard this from non-native >English speakers, so I just took it to be a mispronunciation. But I >then started hearing native-born Americans saying adVERsary too. I >guessed that Americans started imitating some influential foreigner or >foreigners in the field. When asked, many Americans seem to think >that adVERsary is simply a British pronunciation. My inquiries have >turned up Brits who claim that this is the standard British >pronunciation, and ones who say they've never heard anything but >ADversary. Ditto for Aussies. I've checked about eight dictionaries >and none has given any pronunciation except ADversary. Do you know >what the story is? From pds at VISI.COM Wed Dec 31 00:34:29 2003 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:34:29 -0600 Subject: turkey=three strikes in a row in bowling In-Reply-To: <20031230194533.F09446515@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: James Knight doesn't endorse the explanations he quotes, and for a good reason. Rolling a turkey isn't so very hard to do. A bowler with an average as low as, say, 150 is almost certain to roll at least one turkey in a series of three games. Even a gutter-baller like me has a fair chance in an evening's worth of bowling. --Tom Kysilko At 12/30/2003 11:38 AM -0800, James Knight, MLIS wrote: >offering food as gifts to the winners. The common award for bowling three >strikes in a row was a live turkey. If a person accomplished this feat his >or her teammates would all shout, "turkey!" letting the proprietor know >that the prize had been won. ... Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 31 02:00:31 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:00:31 -0500 Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031230183100.046d35d0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 6:45 PM -0500 12/30/03, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>_gank_ 'filch', as in "I'm gonna gank some of your fries" [origin?] > >I believe it's probably an abbreviated form of "gangster" (transitive >verb), which of course is often pronounced "gankster". > >"Gangster" basically = "take by intimidation", I suppose (picture the >gangsters swaggering in and eating all the fries ... nobody's got the nerve >to object), or more generally just "take"/"grab". > >Here is this transitive verb "gangster" on the Web: > ><<"When we lost in Los Angeles in seven games in 1988, Bill Laimbeer and I >went into the Lakers' locker room and gangstered a bottle of their >champagne and we sat in our shower and bawled our eyes out, because we >thought we were the better team and should have won. And we vowed to each >other the next year we were going to win it.">> > >http://www.hoophall.com/features/isiah_thomas.htm > Thanks--that certainly makes sense. Nice quote from the Piston Bad Boys too, and of course by the next year they did get the champagne without needing to gank it. Curiously, no "gangster" verb appears in RHHDAS (any more than "gank"), although there are noun meanings for 'enemy aircraft' and 'marijuana/joint' ("some good gangster"). larry From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Wed Dec 31 02:19:47 2003 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:19:47 -0500 Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates Message-ID: Some slang words here, with the statement that gank was first used in the 1990s. No citations provided. http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22gank%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=30&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1997&selm=beth-2212971626520001%40user-38lcpao.dialup.mindspring.com&rnum=1 As used in a note discussing a starwars game: http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22gank%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=30&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1997&selm=4scn5i%24f51%40news.cis.okstate.edu&rnum=6 Merely F.Y.I., if you are looking for such information. George Cole Shippensburg University From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 31 02:58:03 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:58:03 EST Subject: Black & White & Read All Over (1880); French Dip Sandwich Message-ID: BLACK & WHITE & READ ALL OVER In the "Newsstands" section of the "Annual Manual" in this week's VILLAGE VOICE, December 31, 2003-January 6, 2004: http://villagevoice.com/issues/0353/amcotts.php Black and white and read all over Where is a dating for this good old Americanism? OED? HDAS? CDS? Fred Shapiro? It's not in the "newspaper" section of the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS. I learned about the phrase/saying from a Dixie Riddle Cup. Could it really be as old as 1880? )WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Marion Daily Star - 5/21/1880 ...morning. THE STAR ii BLACK and WHITE and READ ALL OVER. STKAWSEP.BIE8 at Green 'a, to.....BK'O. have a full variety of Straw Hats, ALL sizes and ALL prices, from 15c. to JOSEPH.....where he bails from is elicited. THE famous BLACK red bird, the pride of our city, no.....Tg-tf FOUND, at this office, a babr's WHITE sun bonnet a wliito linen sood goods.. 21 May 1880, MARION STAR (Marion, Ohio), pg. 4?, col. 1: THE STAR is black and white and read all over. Appleton Post Crescent - 7/12/1924 ...OVER The old conundrum whch asked. "What Is BLACK and WHITE, and READ ALL seems to have.....Just fe wbrief minutes and it is READ ALL OVER. Tou'll like the easy and quick.....and vicinity. Opportunities down in BLACK and WHITE, accurately Indexed and.....This section is. of a certainty, READ ALL OVER by an the prudent people of Appleton.. Appleton, Wisconsin Saturday, July 12, 1924 855 k Appleton Post Crescent - 4/21/1927 ...Chicago. ____________ BLACK and WHITE-And READ ALL OVER Tlie old conundrum which asked.....Wliat Is BLACK 'and WHITE, and READ ALL seems to have been.....This section is, oC a certainty, READ ALL OVER by ALL tho_ prudent people -of Appleton.....Tel. 3345 irALLy n 110 E. CoHtgo Ave. OVER i BLACK Inquire of William rtition. ?a.. Appleton, Wisconsin Thursday, April 21, 1927 989 k Council Bluffs Nonpareil - 2/17/1953 ...Automobiles For WHAT'S BLACK and WHITE and RED ALL OVER? It's not a newspaper It's your.....the i right to accept or reject any and ALL offers so submitted. ALL offew not.....FAMILY BUDGET f it's plain as BLACK and WH1TK lhat you can't buy a new car.....nroiulway Phone S980 KRESHLY dressed, smALL WHITE TURKEYS. Also DUCKS ft OEESE. Lloyd.. Council Bluffs, Iowa Tuesday, February 17, 1953 701 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FRENCH DIP SANDWICH I keep looking for a definitive article in the historical LOS ANGELES TIMES on the "French Dip Sandwich." Meanwhile, there's Robert Sietsema in this week's VILLAGE VOICE. http://villagevoice.com/issues/0353/sietsema.php Counter Culture by Robert Sietsema Dip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah A damp beef sandwich stirs controversy in downtown L.A. December 31, 2003 - January 6, 2004 Philippe, the Original 1001 North Alameda Street, Los Angeles 213.628.3781 Cole's P.E. Buffet 118 East 6th Street, Los Angeles 213.622.4090 Everyone agrees that the soggy beef sandwich called French dip first appeared in downtown Los Angeles nearly a century ago. What causes consternation is the nagging question of who invented it. A pair of competing institutions claim credit, each offering a different story. Philippe, the Original occupies spacious corner premises just north of Union Station, featuring sawdust on the floor, long communal tables flanked by high stools, and a line of countergals in starched beige uniforms, who wear surreal brown hats that nestle in their hair like birds. A pair of free parking lots makes it easy for tourists, Dodgers fans, and food writers to zip in and out, and the walls are plastered with accolades from periodicals. As its story goes, founder and French native Philippe Mathieu was preparing one of his popular beef sandwiches in 1918 when he dropped the bread into the broth. The customer, a cop, wanted the sandwich anyway, and the next day he returned with a bunch of chums, all of whom demanded the "French dipped" sandwich. They called it French—according to the restaurant's website—because of the founder's nationality, the kind of roll the sandwich came on, or the policeman's patronymic. Unbelievably, he was named Officer French. Cole's P.E. Buffet enjoys a less salubrious location. When it was founded in 1908 as a bar catering to riders at a nearby streetcar terminal (P.E. stands for Pacific Electric), it was situated in a prime downtown area. Now the neighborhood is a cheesy wholesale hub that the city evasively calls the Toy District, combining elements of a bustling Mexican border town with a world-class skid row. Cole's reminds you of a Blarney Stone—a subterranean Hibernian dive where late in the afternoon the intrepid customers are more likely to be hoisting pints of stout than beef sandwiches. In fact, the eponymous buffet is by then a horror show of desiccated stuffed peppers and crusted-over mac and cheese. As Cole's tells the story, one day soon after the place opened, an old codger came in and, complaining of weak gums, asked the chef to dip his bun in meat juices to soften it. Soon everyone was asking for a "dip sandwich." The French part was ostensibly added by customers to designate the type of bread. This story rings true, partly because French bread had been recently introduced into this country, causing quite a sensation. Back at Philippe's, the sandwiches ($4.40) are assembled from pre-sliced and portion-controlled beef. Though the meat is cardboardy and gray, the crusty bun and fierce horseradish mustard partly redeem the assemblage. When I ordered the competing Cole's French dip ($5.39) the same afternoon, a chef with the pe llucid skin and pale demeanor of a saint in a medieval painting had to be summoned from a back room. He yanked a brisket from the steam cabinet and hand carved pieces of irregular thickness, oozing juices and still faintly pink in the middle. Then he dipped each side of the roll in broth using a stubby silver fork. Alongside the overstuffed sandwich he tendered a plastic cup of condiment compounded of dill cucumber chips and short yellow chiles in their combined pickle juices. Before I even took the first bite, I could predict the result: Cole's kicks Philippe's ass. Another conclusion—there's nothing French about this sandwich but the bread. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) (Cites before 1950--ed.) Zanesville Signal - 9/16/1949 ...1 of catd imat ana' 1 tlics of ai filling. DIP SANDWICH into a mixture of 1 slightly and.....with boy I" gfocfie fa FRENCH MEATWICH Make SANDWICH of 2 of bread.. Zanesville, Ohio Friday, September 16, 1949 1124 k Council Bluffs Iowa Nonpareil - 4/6/1948 ...seasoned leftover moat, cut in half and DIP SANDWICH halves in beaten egg diluted.....is possible to bake. GOOD AK FRENCH FRIED SANDWICH make a SANDWICH with highly.. Council Bluffs, Iowa Tuesday, April 06, 1948 669 k Chillicothe Constitution Tribune - 9/24/1937 ...the cheese. Beat egg, add milk and salt. DIP SANDWICH in mixture 1 fry in butter and.....crusts from the bread, spread and make a SANDWICH with.....2 pounds DRIED BEEF 27c 25c 25c SWIFT'S SANDWICH SPRI SWIFT'S LONGHORN CHEESE.. Chillicothe, Missouri Friday, September 24, 1937 614 k Reno Evening Gazette - 2/6/1946 ...CHILI BOWL Home of the Original French DIPPED SANDWICH Make the Chili Bowl Your Goal.. Reno, Nevada Wednesday, February 06, 1946 643 k Reno Evening Gazette - 2/9/1946 ...a CHILI BOWL Home of the Original French DIPPED SANDWICH Make the Chili Bowl Your Goal.. Reno, Nevada Saturday, February 09, 1946 854 k Reno Evening Gazette - 2/4/1946 ...CHI LI BOWL Home of the Original French DIPPED SANDWICH Make the Chili Bowl Your Goal.. Reno, Nevada Monday, February 04, 1946 643 k 4 February 1946, RENO EVENING GAZETTE (Reno, Nevada), pg. 6, cols. 5-6 ad: CHILI BOWL Home of the Original French Dipped Sandwich Make the Chili Bowl Your Goal! We proudly claime the original Old-time Tamale wrapped in corn shuck. What a meal smothered with that good homemade chili! Try Our Snappy Free Delivery Service Always Open--As Near as Your Telephone PHONE 8739 243 LAKE STREET Reno Evening Gazette - 2/5/1946 ...CHILI BOWL Home of Original French DIPPED SANDWICH Make the Chili Bowl Your Goal.. Reno, Nevada Tuesday, February 05, 1946 654 k Reno Evening Gazette - 2/7/1946 ...CHI LI BOWL Home of the Original French DIPPED SANDWICH Make the Chill Bowl Your Goal.. Reno, Nevada Thursday, February 07, 1946 603 k From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Dec 31 03:06:36 2003 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:06:36 -0500 Subject: Black & White & Read All Over (1880) In-Reply-To: <140.1fafff81.2d23953b@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >BLACK & WHITE & READ ALL OVER > > Could it really be as old as 1880? Sounds right to me. I have heard it all my life, and it sounded old as the hills the first time I heard it. (And I had not even seen any hills yet.) Bethany From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 31 03:46:26 2003 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:46:26 -0500 Subject: instructions Message-ID: For the Micro Innovations 4-in-1 Stylus Pen: >>> TO USE: 1. In order to properly select the function of this pen, you must hold the pen horizontally flat (perpendicular to the ground). Note: This pen uses gravity to determine its function. <<< Words fail me. (They certainly failed this writer! or vice versa.) -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 31 05:04:01 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:04:01 -0500 Subject: Philippe's French-Dip Sandwich (1951) Message-ID: The first LOS ANGELES TIMES "dip(ped) sandwich" citation is only 1930. Here's the important article--a better-late-than-never 1951. PHILIPPE'S FOUNDER RECALLS BUSY DAYS; Man Who Made First French-Dip Sandwich Sees Restaurant Bearing Name Close Doors Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 27, 1951. p. 27 (1 page) Philippe Mathieu, now 74, whetted a carving knife and his memories yesterday and talked of the times when he sold the best-known meal in Los Angeles for 25 cents. e looked over his shoulder at the years that have passed, and back to the days when crowds lined up outside his place at 500 N. Alameda St. to buy his meals. "Sometimes," he said in his home at 1110 Marion Ave., "the crowds would be so big that people passing would call police, thinking there was a fight going on." _French Dip Sandwich_ Those were the days when he was the poor man's Delmonico, the man who had thrust upon him the trick of devising the first "French-dip sandwich." it was a trick that was to make him a modest fortune. It also was to make him work himself to the brink of the grave. Most people nowadays think of Philippe's as at 354 Allen St., and that's where it was for 26 years. Of course, now it has vanished, one of the victims of the wreckers and the bulldozers which have been sweeping away the relics and memories of yesterday to make way for the Ramona Freeway of tomorrow. Philippe's was several places. All of them have gone the way of the last, as rubble and debris cleared for the path of progress. _From France_ Philippe came from Southern France. At 14 he got his first job in Aix-en-Provence in a small "charcuterie," French for delicatessen store. His pay was his food and care and nothing a week. he went to Algiers and worked as an apprentice cook, again for board and room and nothing a week. At 21 he spent a year in the French army. He had had enough of poor pay. But he worked two more years to get enoug money to come to this country. "This is a wonderful country," he calls it. he came in the steerage, and arrived in Buffalo 10 days after President McKinley was assassinated there. He worked in lumber camps and then in a hotel in Buffalo, where he worked up in 15 months from dishwasher to second cook. _Came Here in 1903_ In 1903 he came to Los Angeles and worked as night chef in the Angelus Hotel, then one of this city's leading hostelries. Five and a half months later he had enough money to go into business for himself. For $150 he bought a delicatessen store at 617 Alameda St. That was his start. "I didn't make much money," he said, "and I worked hard. But I knew I was on the right track." The start of his sandwich business was unintentional. His customers started it. He had a row of open barrels each half-covered with planks. Each barrel contained a different relish--pickled cucumbers, pickled onions. olives and such. (Col. 2--ed.) He sold, of course, French bread. And, also of course, cooked meats. Customers would come in, buy a French roll or a loaf of French bread, borrow a carving knife and slit the bread open, buy meat and make their own sandwiches. "They would have me dip into the barrels for their relishes and every customer would have a sandwich to his own taste," Philippe says. He prospered, but very modestly. But in 1908 he felt the future was secure. He was in love. He married. She was Josephine Chaix and, of course, a Frenchwoman. It was a good marriage. It produced two daughters, Alice and Berthe, and in the later years of Philippe's places, all four worked. They worked like beavers. Alice is now married and has two sons, Philiipe and Andre. Bertha is a cashier in a 7th St. apparel shop. _Starts Restaurant_ In 1908, Philippe decided that since his delicatessen customers seemed to like to eat in his place, a restaurant was the logical thing. He opened one at 300 N. Alameda St. The meals he served there have been the subject of many a reminiscence by Los Angeles oldsters. He served his customers all they could eat plus a pint of what he still describes as "good claret wine" for two-bits. Those were the days when the crowds fairly mobbed him. In those days Philippe was buying 12-ounce loaves of French bread at 40 for a dollar. he paid 4 cents a pint for milk and 13 cents a gallon for wine. _On City Hall Site_ After four years he moved his restaurant to 136-138 N. Spring St. That's where the City Hall now stands. His new restaurant was somewhat more pretentious than the old. It had a three-piece orchestra! And he charged 35 cents for his meals! The restaurant prospered bu Philippe wanted a rest. After a few months he sold out. But he grew restless and went back into business. He and his brother Arbin set up a new delicatessen, this time at 817 N. Alameda St., but in 1916 they separated and Philippe continued in it alone. Business got so good that Philippe needed larger quarters. In 1918 he moved his place to 246 Aliso St. _Sandwich Is Born_ That was where the French-dip sandwich was born. A policeman was one of its creators. As Philippe tells it: "One day a police officer asked me if I would mind splitting one of these large loaves of French bread and filling it with 'some of the delicious roast pork.' I was not too busy, so I said, 'Sure.' Then he asked me to (Col. 3--ed.) 'please cut it in half. I've got a friend outside who can eat it.' Then he asked for some pickles, onions and olives." Philippe charged 35 cents for the works and says that was the start of the "man-size" sandwich. The next day the policeman and his friend returned with several other friends. _Dipped in Gravy_ "Then we started making French-roll sandwiches for those who had smaller appetitites," he says. (To be continued--NYU Library is closing at midnight!) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 31 05:18:39 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:18:39 -0500 Subject: Philippe's French-Dip Sandwich (1951) In-Reply-To: <28CA4984.371BC255.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:04 AM -0500 12/31/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > The first LOS ANGELES TIMES "dip(ped) sandwich" citation is only 1930. > Here's the important article--a better-late-than-never 1951. What puzzled me about this place (which did have a nice old sawdust-on-the-floor character, with wooden floors, pickled eggs and pigs' feet in jars, and such) is why everyone I knew around there in the mid-60s (native Angelenos) pronounced it as if it was "Felipe's". Maybe it's just the local L.A. version of hyperforeignism, given the proportion of Spanish vs. French influence around there. L > > >PHILIPPE'S FOUNDER RECALLS BUSY DAYS; Man Who Made First French-Dip >Sandwich Sees Restaurant Bearing Name Close Doors >Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 27, >1951. p. 27 (1 page) > > Philippe Mathieu, now 74, whetted a carving knife and his >memories yesterday and talked of the times when he sold the >best-known meal in Los Angeles for 25 cents. > e looked over his shoulder at the years that have passed, and >back to the days when crowds lined up outside his place at 500 N. >Alameda St. to buy his meals. > "Sometimes," he said in his home at 1110 Marion Ave., "the crowds >would be so big that people passing would call police, thinking >there was a fight going on." > _French Dip Sandwich_ > Those were the days when he was the poor man's Delmonico, the man >who had thrust upon him the trick of devising the first "French-dip >sandwich." it was a trick that was to make him a modest fortune. >It also was to make him work himself to the brink of the grave. > Most people nowadays think of Philippe's as at 354 Allen St., and >that's where it was for 26 years. Of course, now it has vanished, >one of the victims of the wreckers and the bulldozers which have >been sweeping away the relics and memories of yesterday to make way >for the Ramona Freeway of tomorrow. > Philippe's was several places. All of them have gone the way of >the last, as rubble and debris cleared for the path of progress. > _From France_ > Philippe came from Southern France. At 14 he got his first job >in Aix-en-Provence in a small "charcuterie," French for delicatessen >store. His pay was his food and care and nothing a week. > he went to Algiers and worked as an apprentice cook, again for >board and room and nothing a week. At 21 he spent a year in the >French army. > He had had enough of poor pay. But he worked two more years to >get enoug money to come to this country. > "This is a wonderful country," he calls it. > he came in the steerage, and arrived in Buffalo 10 days after >President McKinley was assassinated there. > He worked in lumber camps and then in a hotel in Buffalo, where >he worked up in 15 months from dishwasher to second cook. > _Came Here in 1903_ > In 1903 he came to Los Angeles and worked as night chef in the >Angelus Hotel, then one of this city's leading hostelries. > Five and a half months later he had enough money to go into >business for himself. For $150 he bought a delicatessen store at >617 Alameda St. > That was his start. > "I didn't make much money," he said, "and I worked hard. But I >knew I was on the right track." > The start of his sandwich business was unintentional. His >customers started it. He had a row of open barrels each >half-covered with planks. Each barrel contained a different >relish--pickled cucumbers, pickled onions. olives and such. >(Col. 2--ed.) > He sold, of course, French bread. And, also of course, cooked >meats. Customers would come in, buy a French roll or a loaf of >French bread, borrow a carving knife and slit the bread open, buy >meat and make their own sandwiches. > "They would have me dip into the barrels for their relishes and >every customer would have a sandwich to his own taste," Philippe >says. > He prospered, but very modestly. But in 1908 he felt the future >was secure. He was in love. He married. She was Josephine Chaix >and, of course, a Frenchwoman. It was a good marriage. It produced >two daughters, Alice and Berthe, and in the later years of >Philippe's places, all four worked. They worked like beavers. >Alice is now married and has two sons, Philiipe and Andre. Bertha >is a cashier in a 7th St. apparel shop. > _Starts Restaurant_ > In 1908, Philippe decided that since his delicatessen customers >seemed to like to eat in his place, a restaurant was the logical >thing. He opened one at 300 N. Alameda St. > The meals he served there have been the subject of many a >reminiscence by Los Angeles oldsters. > He served his customers all they could eat plus a pint of what he >still describes as "good claret wine" for two-bits. > Those were the days when the crowds fairly mobbed him. > In those days Philippe was buying 12-ounce loaves of French bread >at 40 for a dollar. he paid 4 cents a pint for milk and 13 cents a >gallon for wine. > _On City Hall Site_ > After four years he moved his restaurant to 136-138 N. Spring St. >That's where the City Hall now stands. > His new restaurant was somewhat more pretentious than the old. >It had a three-piece orchestra! > And he charged 35 cents for his meals! > The restaurant prospered bu Philippe wanted a rest. After a few >months he sold out. > But he grew restless and went back into business. He and his >brother Arbin set up a new delicatessen, this time at 817 N. Alameda >St., but in 1916 they separated and Philippe continued in it alone. > Business got so good that Philippe needed larger quarters. In >1918 he moved his place to 246 Aliso St. > _Sandwich Is Born_ > That was where the French-dip sandwich was born. A policeman was >one of its creators. As Philippe tells it: > "One day a police officer asked me if I would mind splitting one >of these large loaves of French bread and filling it with 'some of >the delicious roast pork.' I was not too busy, so I said, 'Sure.' >Then he asked me to (Col. 3--ed.) 'please cut it in half. I've got >a friend outside who can eat it.' Then he asked for some pickles, >onions and olives." > Philippe charged 35 cents for the works and says that was the >start of the "man-size" sandwich. The next day the policeman and >his friend returned with several other friends. > _Dipped in Gravy_ > "Then we started making French-roll sandwiches for those who had >smaller appetitites," he says. > >(To be continued--NYU Library is closing at midnight!) From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Wed Dec 31 06:04:18 2003 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (Vida J Morkunas) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:04:18 -0800 Subject: instructions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow. The instructions' writer is not only linguistically limited, but directionally challenged ! Aside from the instructions, how do you like your new pen? Is this a pen that doubles as a Palm Pilot stylus? Cheers ! Vida. Vidamorkunas at telus.net -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Mark A. Mandel Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 7:46 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: instructions For the Micro Innovations 4-in-1 Stylus Pen: >>> TO USE: 1. In order to properly select the function of this pen, you must hold the pen horizontally flat (perpendicular to the ground). Note: This pen uses gravity to determine its function. <<< Words fail me. (They certainly failed this writer! or vice versa.) -- Mark A. Mandel From orinkh at CARR.ORG Wed Dec 31 12:42:55 2003 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 07:42:55 -0500 Subject: "adVERsary"? Message-ID: > >I had the following question from someone I know at Microsoft. I've >never heard the "adVERsary" pron, and the OED gives only a version >with first-syllable stress. Is this simply a mistake, or what? > >Geoff Nunberg . . . ODE2 (the recently published update to NODE) gives adVERsary as a possible adjectival prons (when the word is used to mean adversarial), but it gives ADversary as the only noun prons. Perhaps this antepenult stress is slippage from other Brit prons like conTROVersy. I don't recall that I've heard adVERsary but it wouldn't seem jarring coming from an RP speaker. Orin Hargraves From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Dec 31 13:52:11 2003 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:52:11 -0000 Subject: "adVERsary"? In-Reply-To: <3FD63B1B@mail.carr.org> Message-ID: Orin Hargraves wrote: > ODE2 (the recently published update to NODE) gives adVERsary as a > possible adjectival prons (when the word is used to mean adversarial), > but it gives ADversary as the only noun prons. Perhaps this antepenult > stress is slippage from other Brit prons like conTROVersy. I don't > recall that I've heard adVERsary but it wouldn't seem jarring coming > from an RP speaker. As a non-RP speaker with what started out as a lower-class London accent of the immediate postwar years, but which has been modified since, I would always say "adVERsary" (not that I have cause to say it often). My wife (from a lower middle-class north London family) does the same. Neither of us would find it easy to get our tongues around the stress pattern of "ADversary". -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Dec 31 16:14:27 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 11:14:27 -0500 Subject: "substance-free" Message-ID: Heard on the local public radio station's Community Calendar this morning: One of our upstate towns is having a "Substance-free Celebration" tonight! Ethereal? Vaporous? Spirituous -- er, um -- Spiritual? Hmmm. A. Murie From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Dec 31 16:14:42 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 11:14:42 -0500 Subject: "substance-free" Message-ID: Controlled. In other words, no recreational drugs and, most likely, no alcoholic beverages. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: sagehen [mailto:sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM] Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 11:14 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "substance-free" Heard on the local public radio station's Community Calendar this morning: One of our upstate towns is having a "Substance-free Celebration" tonight! Ethereal? Vaporous? Spirituous -- er, um -- Spiritual? Hmmm. A. Murie From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 31 16:21:42 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 11:21:42 -0500 Subject: "substance-free" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:14 AM -0500 12/31/03, sagehen wrote: >Heard on the local public radio station's Community Calendar this morning: >One of our upstate towns is having a "Substance-free Celebration" tonight! >Ethereal? Vaporous? Spirituous -- er, um -- Spiritual? Hmmm. >A. Murie Right; this has been around in the form of "substance-free floors" and "substance-free dorms" for at least 6 years. One of my favorite examples of clipped compounds. larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 31 17:03:34 2003 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 09:03:34 -0800 Subject: innovators and followers (was Fed Up) In-Reply-To: <106.2a8460c7.2d190e7f@aol.com> Message-ID: On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:20 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote, in response to me: --------------------------------- > In a message dated 12/22/03 11:23:54 AM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU > writes: > >> (just to be clear, let me remind >> everyone, again, that most speakers with an innovative form are not >> themselves the innovators, but merely the vehicles of the form's >> spread, so that it makes no sense to ask after the grammatical >> rationale for their usage. they're just repeating what they hear.) -------------------------------- > >Yes, and even this is not complicated enough. absolutely. i cut my posting short, and ron here supplies important additional substance. > >After all, if innovative forms > >didn't make some linguistic sense, followers will not follow the > innovators > >(all other things being equal). So innovations of the "fed up > with/fed up of" > >variety are probably real options for most people--i.e., a number of > people will > >be inclined to innovate from time to time. indeed. the way i like to look at these things is that linguistic elements have *intrinsic* values -- regularity/generality, clarity of various sorts, ease of various sorts -- as well as social values, and that innovations are guided mostly (but not entirely) by intrinsic values, while complex interactions of intrinsic and social values guide spread. (this is not a particularly novel view, though the way i frame it might be a bit novel.) certain innovations are likely to be made again and again, independently, because they are *improvements* on the existing elements -- improvements in the sense that they are intrinsically more valuable. regularizations that eliminate straightforward anomalies are of this sort. it would scarcely make sense to ask where "hisself" for "himself" and "theirselves" for "themselves" originated and how these forms spread so as to become nonstandard variants all over the english-speaking world, when they are being spontaneously invented every week by children acquiring english. > Moreover, innovations surely begin > variably--sometimes one will say one thing, sometimes another... yes, of course. which means that for some time (maybe short, maybe very very long) the innovative and older variants will be in competition with each other. at the very beginning, the innovative variant might have the value -- both intrinsic and social -- of *novelty* (and the older variant the value of *conservatism*), but very quickly the history of these things becomes lost to speakers, who then choose among variants on the basis of other intrinsic and social values. if one variant is the dominant one among the social groups you identify strongly with, then you're probably going to go with that one, intrinsic values be damned. but if the choice isn't heavily determined on social grounds, intrinsic values can promote the spread of the innovation. so the old "subjunctive" counterfactual ("if I/she were...") was swamped by the simpler use of past forms in counterfactuals ("if I/she was...", in which the verb BE is aligned with all the other verbs in the language), and now the WOULD-counterfactual ("if you would ask them, they would..."), which has the virtue of clarity, is rapidly swamping the potentially ambiguous past-for-counterfactual. spread on the basis of intrinsic values leads to a situation in which critics of language use who resist innovation are both baffled and alarmed by the appearance of "nonstandard", "vulgar", "mistaken" etc. variants in the speech and writing of presumably educated people, people who ought to know better. such critics are then inclined to conclude that the educational system, indeed the whole social fabric, is going to hell in a handbasket, or that the barbarians are taking over the citadels, or both. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From self at TOWSE.COM Wed Dec 31 17:49:37 2003 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 09:49:37 -0800 Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > _egosurf_ 'to try to find references to oneself in search engines', > e.g. to autogoogle 'egosurf' has been around for a long while. Search engines made it possible to egosurf for mentions on the Web, but James "Kibo" Parry, legend has it, used to egosurf newsgroups back when by grep-ing his newsfeed, in the days before Deja News came on the scene. He'd then respond to any post that mentioned his nickname. First mention of "egosurf" in Googja is 28Mar1995. My first test of any new search engine I come across is to egosurf and see how many hits I can get on my name. -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Dec 31 18:16:28 2003 From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 10:16:28 -0800 Subject: Philippe's French-Dip Sandwich (1951) In-Reply-To: <200312310511.hBV5BSf0007972@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: "Across the street from Terminal Annex" at 1001 N. Alameda St. Phillippe's Original Sandwich Shop. Still with sawdust on the floor, still with people coming from all over to go there. It was the only place for breakfast when we stayed in a motel near the train station (THAT was another story!). Phillippe's is a Los Angeles stop, and it's still there. And the prices are low enough that they SEEM as if they might still be 35 cents for a sandwich. Put it on your list. Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Philippe's French-Dip Sandwich (1951) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The first LOS ANGELES TIMES "dip(ped) sandwich" citation is only 1930. > Here's the important article--a better-late-than-never 1951. > > > > PHILIPPE'S FOUNDER RECALLS BUSY DAYS; Man Who Made First French-Dip Sandwich Sees Restaurant Bearing Name Close Doors > Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 27, 1951. p. 27 (1 page) > > Philippe Mathieu, now 74, whetted a carving knife and his memories yesterday and talked of the times when he sold the best-known meal in Los Angeles for 25 cents. > e looked over his shoulder at the years that have passed, and back to the days when crowds lined up outside his place at 500 N. Alameda St. to buy his meals. > "Sometimes," he said in his home at 1110 Marion Ave., "the crowds would be so big that people passing would call police, thinking there was a fight going on." > _French Dip Sandwich_ > Those were the days when he was the poor man's Delmonico, the man who had thrust upon him the trick of devising the first "French-dip sandwich." it was a trick that was to make him a modest fortune. It also was to make him work himself to the brink of the grave. > Most people nowadays think of Philippe's as at 354 Allen St., and that's where it was for 26 years. Of course, now it has vanished, one of the victims of the wreckers and the bulldozers which have been sweeping away the relics and memories of yesterday to make way for the Ramona Freeway of tomorrow. > Philippe's was several places. All of them have gone the way of the last, as rubble and debris cleared for the path of progress. > _From France_ > Philippe came from Southern France. At 14 he got his first job in Aix-en-Provence in a small "charcuterie," French for delicatessen store. His pay was his food and care and nothing a week. > he went to Algiers and worked as an apprentice cook, again for board and room and nothing a week. At 21 he spent a year in the French army. > He had had enough of poor pay. But he worked two more years to get enoug money to come to this country. > "This is a wonderful country," he calls it. > he came in the steerage, and arrived in Buffalo 10 days after President McKinley was assassinated there. > He worked in lumber camps and then in a hotel in Buffalo, where he worked up in 15 months from dishwasher to second cook. > _Came Here in 1903_ > In 1903 he came to Los Angeles and worked as night chef in the Angelus Hotel, then one of this city's leading hostelries. > Five and a half months later he had enough money to go into business for himself. For $150 he bought a delicatessen store at 617 Alameda St. > That was his start. > "I didn't make much money," he said, "and I worked hard. But I knew I was on the right track." > The start of his sandwich business was unintentional. His customers started it. He had a row of open barrels each half-covered with planks. Each barrel contained a different relish--pickled cucumbers, pickled onions. olives and such. > (Col. 2--ed.) > He sold, of course, French bread. And, also of course, cooked meats. Customers would come in, buy a French roll or a loaf of French bread, borrow a carving knife and slit the bread open, buy meat and make their own sandwiches. > "They would have me dip into the barrels for their relishes and every customer would have a sandwich to his own taste," Philippe says. > He prospered, but very modestly. But in 1908 he felt the future was secure. He was in love. He married. She was Josephine Chaix and, of course, a Frenchwoman. It was a good marriage. It produced two daughters, Alice and Berthe, and in the later years of Philippe's places, all four worked. They worked like beavers. Alice is now married and has two sons, Philiipe and Andre. Bertha is a cashier in a 7th St. apparel shop. > _Starts Restaurant_ > In 1908, Philippe decided that since his delicatessen customers seemed to like to eat in his place, a restaurant was the logical thing. He opened one at 300 N. Alameda St. > The meals he served there have been the subject of many a reminiscence by Los Angeles oldsters. > He served his customers all they could eat plus a pint of what he still describes as "good claret wine" for two-bits. > Those were the days when the crowds fairly mobbed him. > In those days Philippe was buying 12-ounce loaves of French bread at 40 for a dollar. he paid 4 cents a pint for milk and 13 cents a gallon for wine. > _On City Hall Site_ > After four years he moved his restaurant to 136-138 N. Spring St. That's where the City Hall now stands. > His new restaurant was somewhat more pretentious than the old. It had a three-piece orchestra! > And he charged 35 cents for his meals! > The restaurant prospered bu Philippe wanted a rest. After a few months he sold out. > But he grew restless and went back into business. He and his brother Arbin set up a new delicatessen, this time at 817 N. Alameda St., but in 1916 they separated and Philippe continued in it alone. > Business got so good that Philippe needed larger quarters. In 1918 he moved his place to 246 Aliso St. > _Sandwich Is Born_ > That was where the French-dip sandwich was born. A policeman was one of its creators. As Philippe tells it: > "One day a police officer asked me if I would mind splitting one of these large loaves of French bread and filling it with 'some of the delicious roast pork.' I was not too busy, so I said, 'Sure.' Then he asked me to (Col. 3--ed.) 'please cut it in half. I've got a friend outside who can eat it.' Then he asked for some pickles, onions and olives." > Philippe charged 35 cents for the works and says that was the start of the "man-size" sandwich. The next day the policeman and his friend returned with several other friends. > _Dipped in Gravy_ > "Then we started making French-roll sandwiches for those who had smaller appetitites," he says. > > (To be continued--NYU Library is closing at midnight!) > From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Dec 31 18:53:19 2003 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:53:19 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20word=20of=20the=20year?= Message-ID: Thanks, Dennis! We'll toss this mad cow in the hopper and see who bites. - Allan From alcockg at SRICRM.COM Wed Dec 31 19:20:09 2003 From: alcockg at SRICRM.COM (Gwyn Alcock) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 11:20:09 -0800 Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates In-Reply-To: <200312301928.OAA23140@excellent.cnchost.com> Message-ID: "Moded" may be (related to) "moted", which we used ca. mid-1980s, meaning having done something futile, embarrassing, or generally stupid. I have no idea where it came from. The pronunciation of the t was blunted until it sounded like a d. (We used to argue about the spelling, but general agreement was that it was spelled with a t.) Real-life example, spring 1986: Woman (a neighbor of mine in the dorms) yelling to the unknown thief who'd broken into her car and stolen the stereo: "Ha, ha, moted! Stole a car stereo that doesn't work!" Gwyn Alcock -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:28 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates Some current slang terms with which I was unfamiliar: _(to be/get) moded_ 'mocked, made an ass of' Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 31 20:51:33 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:51:33 -0500 Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:20 AM -0800 12/31/03, Gwyn Alcock wrote: >"Moded" may be (related to) "moted", which we used ca. mid-1980s, meaning >having done something futile, embarrassing, or generally stupid. I have no >idea where it came from. > >The pronunciation of the t was blunted until it sounded like a d. (We used >to argue about the spelling, but general agreement was that it was spelled >with a t.) > >Real-life example, spring 1986: >Woman (a neighbor of mine in the dorms) yelling to the unknown thief who'd >broken into her car and stolen the stereo: >"Ha, ha, moted! Stole a car stereo that doesn't work!" > >Gwyn Alcock Interesting. For me, "moded" and "moted" are indeed homonyms, both with a voiced flap, but I can't find hide nor hair of either of them in RHHDAS and I'm virtually certain I've never come across either before with this meaning. Is this regional? Where was the dorm in question? Anyone else have an origin for this one? I did find an entry on an online slang dictionary supporting my student's (and Gwyn's) intuition, but it doesn't help with either the distribution or origin: moded adj 1. messed up, weird. ("My computer got all moded and then it crashed.") 2. embarassed. Usually used after someone does something stupid. ("Now don't you feel moded!") Submitted by Emily Marcroft, UC Berkeley, USA, 20-02-1998. larry > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Laurence Horn >Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:28 AM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates > > > >Some current slang terms with which I was unfamiliar: > >_(to be/get) moded_ 'mocked, made an ass of' > > > >Larry From alcockg at SRICRM.COM Wed Dec 31 21:18:53 2003 From: alcockg at SRICRM.COM (Gwyn Alcock) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:18:53 -0800 Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates In-Reply-To: <200312312052.PAA04782@intrepid.cnchost.com> Message-ID: The dorm in question was at the University of California, Riverside (southern California). Speaker was from the Los Angeles Basin somewhere, I think. The word was fairly widely used among my dorm-mates in the second sense you gave below, not in the first sense, as I recall. G. Alcock -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 12:52 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates At 11:20 AM -0800 12/31/03, Gwyn Alcock wrote: >"Moded" may be (related to) "moted", which we used ca. mid-1980s, meaning >having done something futile, embarrassing, or generally stupid. I have no >idea where it came from. > >Real-life example, spring 1986: >Woman (a neighbor of mine in the dorms) yelling to the unknown thief who'd >broken into her car and stolen the stereo: >"Ha, ha, moted! Stole a car stereo that doesn't work!" > >Gwyn Alcock Interesting. For me, "moded" and "moted" are indeed homonyms, both with a voiced flap, but I can't find hide nor hair of either of them in RHHDAS and I'm virtually certain I've never come across either before with this meaning. Is this regional? Where was the dorm in question? Anyone else have an origin for this one? I did find an entry on an online slang dictionary supporting my student's (and Gwyn's) intuition, but it doesn't help with either the distribution or origin: moded adj 1. messed up, weird. ("My computer got all moded and then it crashed.") 2. embarassed. Usually used after someone does something stupid. ("Now don't you feel moded!") Submitted by Emily Marcroft, UC Berkeley, USA, 20-02-1998. larry From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Dec 1 02:15:46 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 21:15:46 -0500 Subject: Earlier Examples of _Clam_ 'Dollar'? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 04:25:22PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > HDAS's earliest example of _clam_ 'dollar' is dated 1886. Can Barry, > Jonathon, Tom, Joanne, or anyone else supply anything earlier than this? I can't (but thanks for asking), but I do have an 1865 for _clam_ 'vulva or vagina', antedating HDAS by 50 years or so.... Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 1 03:54:00 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:54:00 -0500 Subject: Fungi (1940) and Virgin Islands cuisine (1961) Message-ID: More recording of Virgin Islands cuisine. September 1940, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE, "The American Virgins" by DuBose Heyward and Daisy Reck, pg. 273+. (Heyward was the South Carolina author responsible for the masterpiece PORGY AND BESS. This was one of his last writings--ed.) Opposite Page 280, Color Plate V caption: A few of the islanders raise goats for their milk. On St. Croix graze herds of long-horned cattle. Chief native dish is _okra-fungi_, made of okra and corn meal. Pg. 306, col. 2: At night, passing an estate village, the visitor will hear the raucous rhythms of a native "scratchy band" and the shuffle of dancing feet. February 1956, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE: Pg. 230, col. 1: With Ridge Folk I watched an island fisherman lift his pots in choppy Europa Bay. A flopping, shimmering rainbow spilled into his skiff--vivid parrotfish, which the islanders call "goot-too," and scarlet squirrelfish; boxfish and lancet-armed "blue doctors," or surgeon-fish; harlequin Nassau groupers and an old-wife, the brilliant queen triggerfish, which the natives believe is occasionally poisonous. THE VIRGIN ISLANDS AND THEIR PEOPLE by J. Antonio Jarvis Philadelphia: Dorrance & Company 1944 Pg. 29: For the most part, marlin and swordfish give more pleasure than sharks, but some people like to catch "nurses" (baby sharks) and tell about the larger ones that got away. Pg. 41: Hermit crabs, commonly called "soldier crabs," are often found at night crawling through the city streets on their way to the hills where they seek fresh water. THE COMPLETE HANDBOOK OF THE VIRGIN ISLANDS by Stuart Murray New York: Duell, SLoan and Pearce 1951 Pp. 118-122 (Plants and fish of the islands--ed.) Pg. 169: VIRGIN ISLANDS RUM RECIPES Virgin Pineapple Dream Fizz... Virgin Miss Clara... Virgin Zombie... Virgin Planter's Punch No. 1... Pg. 170: Sly Virgin... Bluebeard Red Sheet... Virgin No. 2... Virgin Daiquiri... Virgin Old Maid... Virgin Glow... Virgin Passion... Virgin Sherry... Virgin Hold Fast, Martha!... Virgin Me Eye!... Pg. 171: Virgin No. 1... Virgin Black Beauty... Virgin Dry Martini... (Oh, those tame old drink-naming days. There's probably a "Virgin Screaming Orgasm" served there now--ed.) VIRGIN ISLANDS by George T. Eggleston Toronto: D. Van Nostrand Company, Inc. 1959 Pg. 171: St. Croix has been called the "Connecticut of the Caribbean." This is partly because so many people from Connecticut have come to St. Croix to spend their winter holidays--and so many who have come to play, have bought and decided to stay. But also parts of the island look very much like Connecticut. (There's white clam pizza? Yalies?--ed.) THE VIRGINS: MAGIC ISLANDS by Jeanne Perkins Harman New York: Appleton-Century-Crofts, Inc. 1961 Second Printing February 1962 A whole chapter on food, with complete recipes! Pg. 4: St. Thomians, who like bustling shops, a harbor welcoming ships of all nations, and a strong international flavor, dismiss St. John as "the place old people go (Pg. 5--ed.) to visit their parents." St. Johnians counter by calling St. Thomas "a sunny place for shady people." Spacious, proper-Bostonian St. Croix takes no particular exception to being called "the Connecticut of the Caribbean," but prefers its own self-analysis: "Were the Virgin Islands Florida, St. Croix would be Palm Beach." Pg. 125: Chapter 9. FOOD Pg. 129: _Gundi_, a delicious concoction of smoked herring, diced beets, boiled potatoes and hard-boiled eggs, is an essential to a gala Holy Week celebration as turkey is on Thanksgiving. In St. Croix, _maufe_ is the festival dish. Many combinations of "ingreasements" (ingredients) are attributed magical properties as part of the obdeiah cult as it was practiced. Pg. 129: _Kallaloo_, which gets its name from the spinach-like native vegetable which it contains, is a sort of West Indian bouillabaise (Pg. 130--ed.) which is to St. Thomas what beans are to Boston. Instead of John Doe, for instance, the nameless Mr. Everyman is John Kallaloo in the Virgin Islands. Pg. 130: Highly recommended as a cure for husbands who won't stay home nights is "stay home sauce." The use of stay home sauce, which is made from "bush," (Virgin Islandese for spinach, turnip tops, and other greens), is not punishable by law, despite the stringent regulations on the books regarding wifely conduct, which provide, among other things, that she must "obey her husband in all ways." Pg. 131: To make a welcome visitor return to the Islands, just feed him pigeon pea soup. Turtle steak supposedly promotes virility, as does the juice of the soursop, and there are other carefully guarded secret foods believed to be equally effective. Pg. 133: For the experimentally minded reader, here are instructions for creating some typical Virgin Islands dishes, many of which have been tested in the kitchens of famed _Gourmet_ magazine in conjunction with an article on island cuisine by this author: KALLALOO... GOLDEN GROVE RAGOUT... Pg. 134: FUNGI... MAUFE... Pg. 135: BAKED FISH EDDIE... POOFTIES... Pg. 136: GUNDI... COCONUT APPETIZERS... Pg. 137: SAFARI SALAD... BOLONGO PIE... Pg. 138: BANANA DAIQUIRI... Pg. 139: RUM HIGHBALLS... GOVERNOR'S CUP... ST. THOMAS SEVENTY-FIVE... Pg. 140: COCONUT COOLER... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 1 04:25:17 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:25:17 -0500 Subject: Fungi (1934) Message-ID: Sorry about the multiple "fungi" posts. I searched again for "corn" instead of "cornmeal" on JSTOR. This citation has "corn-meal" on two lines...OED doesn't record the Virgin Islands' "Cha Cha"? I won't have a free NYPL day anytime soon to antedate this. When I do make it to the library, there will be 40 David Shulman Christmas poems to listen to. The Chachas of St. Thomas Earl B. Shaw The Scientific Monthly, Vol. 38, No. 2. (Feb., 1934), pp. 136-145. Pg. 144: The meals of the fisher folk consist mainly of fish, fungi,* and "soups" and "teas" often made from indigenous plants. *Fungi is a gruel made largely out of corn-meal. The meal is imported, for it can be shipped in cheaper than corn can be grown and prepared. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 1 08:41:53 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 03:41:53 EST Subject: Ground provisions, Lima bean, Calalue (1794?, 1805-6, 1819) Message-ID: THE HISTORY, CIVIL AND COMMERCIAL, OF THE BRITISH WEST INDIES by Bryan Edwards in five volumes London: T. Miller 1819 New York: AMS Press, Inc. 1966 Another important book under-cited by the OED. This is the volume that's at NYU. I had read also part of the 1805-6 edition on Saturday at the NYPL. The first edition is 1794. OT: I took a train home from NYU. Half of the train contained ads for "America's Caribbean," the U.S. Virgin Islands. TAKE ME BACK! GET ME OUT OF NEW YORK! VOLUME ONE Pg. 255: To my own taste, however, several of the native growths, especially the chocho, ochra, Lima-bean, and Indian-kale, are more agreeable than any of the esculent vegetables of Europe. The other indigenous productions of this class are plantains, bananas, yams of several varieties, calalue (a species of spinnage), eddoes, cassavi, and sweet potatoes. A mixture of these, stewed with salt fish or salted meat of any kind, and highly seasoned with Cayenne pepper, is a favourite olio among the negroes. (OED has 1819 for "Lima bean." I just returned from Cayenne, in French Guiana--ed.) Pg. 256: Perhaps no country on earth affords so magnificent a dessert; and I conceive that the following were spontaneously bestowed on the island by the bounty of nature:--the annana or pine-apple, tamarind, papaw, guava, sweet-sop of two species, cashew-apple, custard-apple (a species of chirimoya), cocoa-nut, star-apple, grenadilla, avocado-pear, hog-plum and its varieties, pindal-nut, nesberry, mammec, mammee-sapota, Spanish-gooseberry, p[rickly-pear, and perhaps a few others. For the orange (Seville and CHina), the lemon, lime, shaddock, and its numerous species, the vine, melon, fig, and pomegrante, the West Indian islands were probably indebted to their Spanish invaders. VOLUME TWO Pg. 102: This is in fact one of their chief musical instruments; besides which, they have the _Banja_ or _Merriwang_, the _Dundo_ and the _Goombay_; all of African origin. The first is an imperfect kind of violincello; except that it is played on by the finger like the guitar; producing a dismal monotony of four notes. The Dundo is precisely a tabor; and the Goombay is a rustic drum; being formed of the trunk of a hollow tree, one end of which is covered with a (Pg. 103--ed.) sheep's skin. (OED has 1774 nd 1789 cites for "banjo" and "goombay"--ed.) Pg. 158: This meal (breakfast--ed.) commonly consists of boiled yams, eddoes, ocra, calalue and plantains, or as many of those vegetables as they can procure; seasoned with salt, and cayenne pepper; and, in truth, it is an exceeding palatable and wholesome mess. Pg. 164: ...a pail, an iron pot, _calabashes_* of different sizes (serving very tolerably for plates, dishes, and bowls), make up the rest. *A species of gourd. Pg. 244: Ratoons are the sprouts or suckers that spring from the roots, or stoles of the canes that have been previously cut for sugar, and are commonly ripe in twelve months. (OED has 1779, then 1818 for "ratoon"--ed.) Pg. 370: The usual method of forming a new piemento plantation, (in Jamaice it is called a _walk_) is nothing more than to appropriate a piece of wood land, in the neighbourhood of a planation already existing,... (OED has 1793 for "walk" meaning "a plantation"--ed.) Pg. 347 (From Volume Two, 1805-6--ed.): The misfortune is, that they trust more to plantain groves, corn, and other vegetables, that are liable to be destroyed by storms, than to what are called _ground provisions_; such as yams, eddoes, (Pg. 348--ed.) potatoes, cassada, and other esculent roots;... (OED has 1827 for "ground provisions," under GROUND. Under PROVISION, OED has 1808 for "ground provisions"--ed.) VOLUME THREE Pg. 258: Returning to the villa, we were greeted by a party which frightened the boys. It was the _Moco Jumbo_ and his suite.* *Without doubt the _Mumbo Jumbo_ of the Mandengoes. VOLUME FIVE Pg. 202: SOME ACCOUNT OF THE BRITISH SETTLEMENTS ON THE MUSQUITO SHORE. Drawn up for the Use of Government in 1773. (OED has 1789 for "musquito shore," later "mosquito coast"--ed.) From hepkel10 at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 1 09:54:50 2003 From: hepkel10 at YAHOO.COM (Chris Dacolias) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 01:54:50 -0800 Subject: Cowboy Lingo? Message-ID: My question regards a dialect spoken in the west after the civil war and before the turn of the century in the American west. Some might call this a version of "cowboy language". This dialect was consistently used during the recent film "Open Range" a western set in 1888 starring Kevin Costner. In an interview, Costner referred to the dialect as "Victorian language". I didn't know quite what he meant. An example of the dialect follows: "We got a warrant sworn for attempted murder for them that tried to kill the boy who's laying over there at the Doc's, trying to stay alive. Swore out another one for them that murdered the big fella you had in your cell. Only ours ain't writ by no tin star, bought and paid for, Marshall. It's writ by us, and we aim to enforce it." "for them that tried to kill the boy" really stands out as a great example of the grammar of this dialect. It's not merely poor grammar, there's a style and consistency to it. Can anyone help me identify what characteristics unite this dialect, or where I can find out more information about it? Thank you very much. Konrad O"Milor __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Mon Dec 1 14:37:49 2003 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 09:37:49 -0500 Subject: "twit" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031129121549.049c19e0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 12:26 PM 11/29/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Is there any reason to suppose that "[silly] twit" has any etymological >relationship to the verb "twit" = "tease" (etc.)? > >My OED is apparently uncertain about the meaning of "twit" (sb1: 2), >recorded as "silly ... twit" from 1719 and 1896. Judging from the citations >as they stand, this could easily be continuous with the 20th-century use. > >One obvious speculation would place "twit" on the spectrum which also >includes "twitchet" and "twat", with all three having the same one-word >gloss. Relatively sparse printed record would be expected. > >-- Doug Wilson Several of the books I checked did say it was a blend of twerp and twat (Partridge for example.) And Safire brazenly and boldly had that in the column. ;-) I told him, he writes for a paper that won't allow the word butt in its pages, but he thought he'd give it a shot anyway. Of course the editors were immediately "in a twit" about twat. Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 1 15:05:21 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:05:21 -0500 Subject: "twit" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20031201093301.02b3cf30@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: At 9:37 AM -0500 12/1/03, Kathleen E. Miller wrote: >At 12:26 PM 11/29/2003 -0500, you wrote: >>Is there any reason to suppose that "[silly] twit" has any etymological >>relationship to the verb "twit" = "tease" (etc.)? >> >>My OED is apparently uncertain about the meaning of "twit" (sb1: 2), >>recorded as "silly ... twit" from 1719 and 1896. Judging from the citations >>as they stand, this could easily be continuous with the 20th-century use. >> >>One obvious speculation would place "twit" on the spectrum which also >>includes "twitchet" and "twat", with all three having the same one-word >>gloss. Relatively sparse printed record would be expected. >> >>-- Doug Wilson > > > >Several of the books I checked did say it was a blend of twerp and twat >(Partridge for example.) And Safire brazenly and boldly had that in the >column. ;-) I told him, he writes for a paper that won't allow the word >butt in its pages, but he thought he'd give it a shot anyway. Of course the >editors were immediately "in a twit" about twat. > > >Kathleen E. Miller >Research Assistant to William Safire >The New York Times. too bad--he could have then gone into the whole bit from Webster 2 on _twat_: 'some part of a nun's garb [erron. Browning]', one of the more amusing lexicographic entries, right up there with _dord_ larry From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 2 14:41:43 2003 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 06:41:43 -0800 Subject: "A million here and a million there, and pretty soon you're talking real money." Message-ID: US Senator Everett Dirksen is quoted often as having said, "A million here and a million there, and pretty soon you're talking real money." Numerous web-sites attribute several variations (mostly using "billion" instead of "million") on this statement to the Senator. No doubt, recognizing the quotable gem he had uttered, Sen Dirksen repeated this phrase often and probably with slight variations. But when and where did he first use the phrase, and exactly what did he say? Anyone know? ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Dec 2 15:06:45 2003 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:06:45 EST Subject: Cowboy Lingo? Message-ID: original message follows: Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 01:54:50 -0800 From: Chris Dacolias Subject: Re: Cowboy Lingo? My question regards a dialect spoken in the west after the civil war and before the turn of the century in the American west. Some might call this a version of "cowboy language". This dialect was consistently used during the recent film "Open Range" a western set in 1888 starring Kevin Costner. In an interview, Costner referred to the dialect as "Victorian language". I didn't know quite what he meant. An example of the dialect follows: "We got a warrant sworn for attempted murder for them that tried to kill the boy who's laying over there at the Doc's, trying to stay alive. Swore out another one for them that murdered the big fella you had in your cell. Only ours ain't writ by no tin star, bought and paid for, Marshall. It's writ by us, and we aim to enforce it." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm a little suspicious of the quote. It is addressed to someone who has the job title of "Marshall" [sic---should be only one "l"]. In the WIld West, "marshal" was the title for two different law enforcement positions: 1) a municipal police officer (now archaic) 2) a US Marshal (a position that still exists today) (If I remember correctly, the Earp brothers in the Tombstone days held down both types of marshal positions) Both types of marshals frequently wore metal badges. Since the Civil War the attributive noun "tin" has meant any type of thin sheet metal (e.g. lightly armored Union gunboats in the Civil War were known as "tinclads", or L. Frank Baum's "Tin Woodsman" (Wizard of Oz, 1900) who, since he rusted, was obviously made of sheet iron or sheet steel rather than tin.) Hence it was not uncommon for a marshal's badge, and by extension the marshal himself, to be called a "tin star". Therefore the speaker, by using the phrase "tin star", is gratuitously insulting the (town or US) marshal he is addressing. I seem to recall having heard "them that" for "those who" in jocular expressions, the kind in which ungrammatical usages are used for emphasis, e.g. "The Golden Rule: Them that has the gold, rules". "laying" for "lying" is a common grammatical error, much commented on by my grade school grammar books. "Ain't" needs no commentary. The only other violations of formal grammar and diction are the missing "by" clause after "sworn", the missing subject in the second sentence, the singular "It" as subject of the last sentence, and the quaint-sounding use of "writ" as a verb. There is a play on words that seems to have snuck by the scriptwriter. A warrant is a "writ", and hence the speaker and his colleagues have "writ a writ". - James A. Landau From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 2 15:10:17 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:10:17 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Re: Program for ADS Annual Meeting January 8-10 In-Reply-To: <149.1d5a82a4.2cfbb6a2@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 04:09:54PM -0500, AAllan at AOL.COM wrote: > Dear Jesse, > It would be most helpful if you could chair the Saturday morning session, > January 10, from 9:15 to 11:15 p.m. on attitudes, perceptions, and identities. > Can you do it? Please let me know. Thanks! - Allan Yes, I'd be happy to. Best, Jesse From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Dec 2 18:32:08 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:32:08 -0600 Subject: Baseball Dictionary (for 1913)--vol. 3 is completed Message-ID: For those who might be interested: I have completed the third and last volume of _Dictionary of 1913 Baseball And Other Lingo_; subtitle: _Primarily from the Baseball Columns of the San Francisco Bulletin, Feb. - May 1913_. 2003 (published by the author). The project began as a search for the origin of the term "jazz" and expanded as I saw more and more interesting material before me. Items are presented in context with the exact reference; sample items are 'spasm' (inning), 'Skoozicks Mageezicks' (Joe Blow), 'to tin-can someone' (fire someone), 'switch the cut' (get a hit by outfoxing the opposing fielders). The work aims to be scholarly. Only 110 copies have been printed--10 for personal use and 100 for sale. The project in non-profit--any remaining funds will be donated to a scholarship fund at the University of Missouri Rolla. Cost of the volumes: Volume 1: $25 (includes $5 postage/handling fee)--213 pp. Volume 2: $30 (includes $5 postage/handling fee)--213 pp. Volume 3: $30 (includes $5 postage/handling fee).---215 pp. The post office lost a few of my volume 1 mailings, and so I now mail the books by Federal Express (my campus gets a discount; hence the increased cost of vols. 2-3.) Copies of vol. 1 and 2 are still available. Checks should be made payable to the University of Missouri-Rolla and mailed to me at: Gerald Cohen, PLA Department, G-4 H-SS, University of Missouri-Rolla, Rolla MO 65409. It would be good if at least some copies would find their way onto the shelves of libraries so they will be permanently available to the public. Gerald Cohen P.S. Anyone thinking of a baseball dictionary as a Xmas gift would not want the above item. Instead I'd recommend Paul Dickson's _The New Dickson Baseball Dictionary_ (Harcourt, 1999), which is broader in scope, has lots of nice pictures, etc. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Dec 2 20:48:56 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:48:56 -0500 Subject: Cowboy Lingo? In-Reply-To: <91.368b9e68.2cfe0485@aol.com> Message-ID: Costner is really showing his ignorance about American dialects (are we surprised?). Calling these representations of very commonly used nonstandard English (in both Britain and America) "Victorian" is like calling Appalachian English "Elizabethan." Maybe he read some of these forms ("them that," for example, and "writ" and intransitive "laying") in a Dickens novel and thought that "somehow" 19th century English had been transported to the Wild West of America. Ain't nothing "jocular" about these forms; and I don't see a problem with singular "it," since the referent seems to be one warrant (either one of the two mentioned). At 10:06 AM 12/2/2003 -0500, you wrote: >original message follows: > >Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 01:54:50 -0800 >From: Chris Dacolias >Subject: Re: Cowboy Lingo? > >My question regards a dialect spoken in the west after >the civil war and before the turn of the century in >the American west. Some might call this a version of >"cowboy language". This dialect was consistently used >during the recent film "Open Range" a western set in >1888 starring Kevin Costner. In an interview, Costner >referred to the dialect as "Victorian language". I >didn't know quite what he meant. > >An example of the dialect follows: >"We got a warrant sworn for attempted murder for them >that tried to kill the boy who's laying over there at >the Doc's, trying to stay alive. Swore out another one >for them that murdered the big fella you had in your >cell. Only ours ain't writ by no tin star, bought and >paid for, Marshall. It's writ by us, and we aim to >enforce it." >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >I'm a little suspicious of the quote. It is addressed to someone who has the >job title of "Marshall" [sic---should be only one "l"]. In the WIld West, >"marshal" was the title for two different law enforcement positions: >1) a municipal police officer (now archaic) >2) a US Marshal (a position that still exists today) >(If I remember correctly, the Earp brothers in the Tombstone days held down >both types of marshal positions) > >Both types of marshals frequently wore metal badges. Since the Civil War the >attributive noun "tin" has meant any type of thin sheet metal (e.g. lightly >armored Union gunboats in the Civil War were known as "tinclads", or L. Frank >Baum's "Tin Woodsman" (Wizard of Oz, 1900) who, since he rusted, was obviously >made of sheet iron or sheet steel rather than tin.) Hence it was not >uncommon for a marshal's badge, and by extension the marshal himself, to >be called a >"tin star". > >Therefore the speaker, by using the phrase "tin star", is gratuitously >insulting the (town or US) marshal he is addressing. > >I seem to recall having heard "them that" for "those who" in jocular >expressions, the kind in which ungrammatical usages are used for emphasis, >e.g. "The >Golden Rule: Them that has the gold, rules". > >"laying" for "lying" is a common grammatical error, much commented on by my >grade school grammar books. "Ain't" needs no commentary. The only other >violations of formal grammar and diction are the missing "by" clause after >"sworn", >the missing subject in the second sentence, the singular "It" as subject of >the last sentence, and the quaint-sounding use of "writ" as a verb. > >There is a play on words that seems to have snuck by the scriptwriter. A >warrant is a "writ", and hence the speaker and his colleagues have "writ a >writ". > > - James A. Landau From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Dec 2 21:15:29 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:15:29 -0500 Subject: Cowboy Lingo? Message-ID: For the "them that" construction, compare "God helps them that help themselves" (Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac, 1757, according to Bartlett's via Bartleby.com). I expect that by "Victorian language," Costner simply meant language used during the Victorian period. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Chris Dacolias [mailto:hepkel10 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 4:55 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Cowboy Lingo? My question regards a dialect spoken in the west after the civil war and before the turn of the century in the American west. Some might call this a version of "cowboy language". This dialect was consistently used during the recent film "Open Range" a western set in 1888 starring Kevin Costner. In an interview, Costner referred to the dialect as "Victorian language". I didn't know quite what he meant. An example of the dialect follows: "We got a warrant sworn for attempted murder for them that tried to kill the boy who's laying over there at the Doc's, trying to stay alive. Swore out another one for them that murdered the big fella you had in your cell. Only ours ain't writ by no tin star, bought and paid for, Marshall. It's writ by us, and we aim to enforce it." "for them that tried to kill the boy" really stands out as a great example of the grammar of this dialect. It's not merely poor grammar, there's a style and consistency to it. Can anyone help me identify what characteristics unite this dialect, or where I can find out more information about it? Thank you very much. Konrad O"Milor __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Wed Dec 3 03:24:22 2003 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:24:22 EST Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase Message-ID: One of my NJ students (Asian-American) wrote these two sentences in a paper I just read: "As I entered the school, I went to the office where I was supposed to check in at. I checked in and the secretary took me to a room where I was needed at." I was surprised to find this in a more or less formal paper. We had "this place is where it's at" in the 60s.. DARE has examples from the South and Midlands with some NY examples, but most of the examples are of the "where are you at?" variety--maybe this construction is taking off. Dale Coye The College of NJ From douglas at NB.NET Wed Dec 3 04:43:31 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 23:43:31 -0500 Subject: "twit" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am somewhat surprised to find "twit" = "nervous state"/"jitters" in MW3 as well as RHUD etc. Apparently "in a twit" has been available for a while. Said to be short for "twitter" in this sense: seems right to me. -- Doug Wilson From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Dec 3 15:46:12 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:46:12 EST Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase Message-ID: In a message dated 12/2/03 10:24:56 PM, Dalecoye at AOL.COM writes: > One of my NJ students (Asian-American) wrote these two sentences in a paper > I > just read: > > "As I entered the school, I went to the office where I was supposed to check > in at.? I checked in and the secretary took me to a room where I was needed > at." > > I was surprised to find this in a more or less formal paper.? We had "this > place is where it's at" in the 60s.. DARE has examples from the South and > Midlands with some NY examples, but most of the examples are of the "where > are you > at?" variety--maybe this construction is taking off. > > Dale Coye > The College of NJ > "This is where its at" = 'This is an exciting place' is slang from the 1960s that postdates the use of "at" in the student examples above. The student examples sound perfectly normal to me as Midwestern vernacular speech. So does the question, "Where's he at?"--they are equally plausible in the Iowa speech of my youth (Cedar Rapids [west side]). When I was a child, if I asked an adult "Where's he at?" or "Where's it at?" or "Where am I supposed to check in at?" I would sometimes be told, "On the other side of the 'at'," which was supposed to be a clever way of telling me that I had committed a solecism. I believe that it has been suggested that this construction has something to do with the German ancestors of many midwesterners. From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM Wed Dec 3 16:07:35 2003 From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:07:35 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ron, I grew up with the "... at." construction that Dale's describing in NWNC, and I think I hear it even more in the piedmont. Is this fairly common in the South, as well? bh On Dec 3, 2003, at 10:46 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > "This is where its at" = 'This is an exciting place' is slang from the > 1960s > that postdates the use of "at" in the student examples above. The > student > examples sound perfectly normal to me as Midwestern vernacular speech. > So does the > question, "Where's he at?"--they are equally plausible in the Iowa > speech of > my youth (Cedar Rapids [west side]). When I was a child, if I asked an > adult > "Where's he at?" or "Where's it at?" or "Where am I supposed to check > in at?" I > would sometimes be told, "On the other side of the 'at'," which was > supposed > to be a clever way of telling me that I had committed a solecism. I > believe > that it has been suggested that this construction has something to do > with the > German ancestors of many midwesterners. "We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams." Bob Haas Department of English High Point University From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Dec 3 16:34:28 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:34:28 EST Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase (more) Message-ID: A little Googling should provide some answers. Here is a start: I found 631 pages of examples on a Google search for "where he is at"; here are the first 3 (note that many of the examples are not relevant--they are like the third one below): ? explain where dante is at and why he must make this journey!!!!: ... - ... is!! ...dante is at a certain place in his life when he has this vision of hell, explain where he is at and why he must make this journey. ... http://killdevilhill.com/infernochat/messages2/737.html ? Keiko is fine where he is at - ... Keiko is fine where he is at. From: Softball_baby_15 at yahoo.com Date: 4/3/2003 Time: 3:32:14 PM Remote Name: 209.144.38.99. Comments. ... http://freekeiko.com/_disc6/00000030.htm ? Saint Brendan's College - ... 1995: DENIS DOYLE Denis went to Trinity College where he is at present taking a degree in Business, Economics and Social Studies. ... http://homepage.tinet.ie/~stbrendans/voy5.htm I also found 11 pages that have examples such as the following; Directions to Canoe Outpost-Peace River/Gardner - ... are varied. Avoid dis appointment and confusion and confirm which Canoe Outpost office you are supposed to check-in at. During spring ... http://www.canoeoutpost.com/pgardir.htm HoustonChronicle.com - Maps, questions abound, but Reliant debut ... - ... So we came over here and they're saying no.". A friend got on his cell phone and found out yet another gate the volunteers were supposed to check in at. ... http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/rodeo/features/1795219 From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Wed Dec 3 22:04:31 2003 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 17:04:31 -0500 Subject: FYI: "Gay" is a bad "wurd" Message-ID: Did anybody read this? My mouth is still open in shock... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29820-2003Dec2.html http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/03/national/03GAY.html Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Dec 3 22:11:33 2003 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 17:11:33 -0500 Subject: Foreign Accent Syndrome Audio Message-ID: For those who haven't heard her yet, the BBC World Service program Outlook yesterday featured the woman who accidentally lost her American accent and now sounds oddly British. The audio is available in Real Audio format, and the segment starts roughly at the 28-minute mark. http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/ram/outlook_tue.ram That audio will disappear in a week, so invoking Fair Use, I've put up an excerpt of the show in MP3 format (variable-rate, mono, 5.3MB, 11 minutes): http://www.americandialect.org/BBC_Outlook_ForeignAccentSyndrome.mp3 There's also an impressionist on the show whose interview is intertwined with that of the FAS woman; she speaks in the beginning and the end of the segment. He is noticeably skeptical, as she seems to have made some effort to pick up British usages. During the interview, she says "right roll ready," (at the eight-minute mark) which both the host and the impressionist immediately recognise as very English. She also uses "wee" (in "wee little toddler," triple prize-winner for redundancy), "shan't," and what sounds like a possessive "me" (as in "me mum" or more like, "me mim"), all where an American likely wouldn't. Grant Barrett gbarrett at americandialect.org From stalker at MSU.EDU Thu Dec 4 01:46:50 2003 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C. Stalker) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 20:46:50 -0500 Subject: FYI: "Gay" is a bad "wurd" Message-ID: I'm not surprised. When particular words are demonized, no one can say them. They lose denotative content and become entirely connotative content. "Gay" is hate speak, therefore unallowable under any circumstances. I'm sure the poor teacher has been admonished, quite strictly, not to allow anything that sounds like hate speech. I would bet that she heard no context, only the word. My sympathies for both her and the child, caught in a linguistic battle beyond their ken. Where is Frodo when we really need him? A bit melodramatic perhaps, but I think appropriate to the situation. Jim Stalker "Kathleen E. Miller" wrote: > Did anybody read this? My mouth is still open in shock... > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29820-2003Dec2.html > > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/03/national/03GAY.html > > Kathleen E. Miller > Research Assistant to William Safire > The New York Times From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Dec 4 03:06:39 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 22:06:39 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) Message-ID: Not in M-W or OED, unless I missed it. RHDAS has from 1982. >From the Gettysburg (PA) Compiler, August 29, 1974: page 14, col. 7: <> So did Staubach originate this phrase? If you aren't from the US, this is a desperation pass, whether football or basketball. Probably comes from football. Sam Clements From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Dec 4 03:45:29 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 22:45:29 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) In-Reply-To: <000501c3ba13$a3fb3480$7e22a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: It appears that Staubach did originate it. I'm a bit surprised that HDAS only has it from '82. It's one of the all-time classic plays in football and even a casual fan can date the term to 12 Dec 1975 when Staubach threw a desperation, last minute pass to Drew Pearson, who caught it and ran it into the end zone. Dallas beat Minnesota, 17-14, taking the Divisional Title. Vikings' Cornerback Nate Wright claimed that Pearson committed offensive pass interference, but the officials never called the foul. After the game, Staubach said, "it was just a Hail Mary pass, a very, very lucky play." Evidently as Mr. Clements has discovered, this was not the first time Staubach used the term. (Some years later, Pearson admitted that he had indeed committed interference.) The other famous '70s football play that uses Marian word play is the "Immaculate Reception." 23 Dec 1972, losing 7-6 with about a minute left, Steelers QB Terry Bradshaw threw a pass to halfback John Fuqua. Fuqua was hit by Raider defenseman as he was catching the ball. It bounced off his hands, hit another player, and bounced into the hands of Steeler running back Franco Harris, who ran the ball 42 yards for a touchdown, winning the game. Some claimed that the ball hit the ground before bouncing into Harris's hands--which would have been the end of the play, but the refs didn't call it and the camera angles are inconclusive. (Unlike Pearson, Harris has never admitted the ball hit the ground, but he does smile and wink when people bring up the subject.) The term "Immaculate Reception" was first used by Myron Cope, the Steelers' radio announcer later that night. The term was suggested by a fan, Michael Ord. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Sam Clements > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:07 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) > > > Not in M-W or OED, unless I missed it. > > RHDAS has from 1982. > > From the Gettysburg (PA) Compiler, August 29, 1974: page 14, col. 7: > > < Conference West > before losing at Dallas, 27-16, in the playoffs on what Cowboys' > quarterback > Roger Staubach calls "a couple of Hail Mary pass plays." >> > > So did Staubach originate this phrase? > > If you aren't from the US, this is a desperation pass, whether football or > basketball. Probably comes from football. > > Sam Clements > > From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Dec 4 04:01:23 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:01:23 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) Message-ID: I screwed up. M-W DOES have it, as a second meaning, thereby deftly avoiding the first useage-cite-problem-thingy. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Clements" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:06 PM Subject: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) > Not in M-W or OED, unless I missed it. > > RHDAS has from 1982. > > From the Gettysburg (PA) Compiler, August 29, 1974: page 14, col. 7: > > < before losing at Dallas, 27-16, in the playoffs on what Cowboys' quarterback > Roger Staubach calls "a couple of Hail Mary pass plays." >> > > So did Staubach originate this phrase? > > If you aren't from the US, this is a desperation pass, whether football or > basketball. Probably comes from football. > > Sam Clements > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 4 04:05:57 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:05:57 -0500 Subject: How to Speak Chocolatese (Gianduja); Polish Pickup Message-ID: HOW TO SPEAK CHOCOLATESE I speak the rare Cadburian dialect. From Wednesday's NEW YORK TIMES: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/03/dining/03CGLO.html Glossary: How to Speak Chocolatese ALLOTIN The traditional long, deep box used for packing chocolates in Europe. BLOOM A fine gray-brown dust on chocolate that has been stored too hot or too long. Cocoa butter bloom does not change the flavor or texture of chocolate. Sugar bloom, when sugar crystals separate from the chocolate, creates a gritty layer. CACAO POD The soft fruit of the cacao tree (Theobroma cacao). COCOA BEAN The seed inside the cacao pod. Seeds removed from the pods are called cocoa beans. COCOA MASS/COCOA LIQUOR Cocoa powder mixed with pure cocoa butter; the base of all chocolate. CONCHING The milling and kneading of cocoa mass in its first stage of processing. COUVERTURE French for covering, it is the term for fine plain chocolate. GANACHE A soft paste of chocolate and cream, plain or flavored. A plain dark-chocolate ganache is the best benchmark for a chocolatier's work. GIANDUJA Italy's characteristic confection: chocolate with hazelnuts, either smooth or crunchy. PALET A round, thin wafer of plain chocolate, used for tastings. PAV? French for cobblestone, the most popular shape for high-end chocolates, square with rounded edges. PRALINE French for candied, usually referring to nuts. Many classic French bonbons are filled with crunchy almond or hazelnut praline; these are also called croquantes, meaning crunchy. However, in Belgium, praline is used as a general term for chocolates. SINGLE-PLANTATION Chocolate made from cocoa beans grown in the same region and harvested by the same grower. TEMPERING A process of heating and cooling to stabilize the cocoa butter in chocolate to produce the snap, gloss and crispness that distinguishes professional bonbons from homemade ones. Tempering chocolate, like tempering steel, makes it stronger. TRUFFLE A round, chocolate-covered bonbon, named for its resemblance to a freshly dug truffle (chocolate truffles are often dusted with cocoa powder, to give them an even earthier look). There are 7,500 Google hits for "gianduja." It is not in the OED. (GOOGLE) http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food/index.ssf?DEF_ID=1895 gianduja [zhahn-DOO-yah] Hailing from Switzerland, gianduja is a silky-smooth, hazelnut-flavored chocolate that comes in several styles including milk chocolate and bittersweet chocolate. It's available in gourmet markets and through mail order. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) News of Food New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 14, 1952. p. 31 (1 page): The other Swiss cooky, also a Kambly product, is the double lady-finger Duchesse. Between two airy-textured wafers (made of flour, sugar and egg white), there is a creamy Gianduja filling. This is a special mixture of finely-ground almonds and hazelnuts blended with chocolate and flavored with vanilla. A box fo eighteen of the lady-fingers is 95 cents. A Chocolate Fantasy That Came True By MIMI SHERATON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 2, 1980. p. C3 (1 page) : For gianduja, nuts and sugar are roasted together so that each nut is entirely coated with sugar that seals the flavor in. "The result," Mr. Stork promises, "is a much more intense nut flavor, and I am also excited about making it with pecans." The Lighter Ice Creams: Now Less Is More By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 21, 1982. p. C1 (2 pages) : Pg. C6: And the amaretto chocolate-hazelnut (called gianduja) and torroncino or nougat, bring back memories of the Piazza Navona in Rome. Display Ad 5 -- No Title The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Oct 22, 1982. p. A7 (1 page): Roma, rum, brandy and coffee flavored creams in Gianduja chocolate. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ POLISH PICKUP In that new tv classic, THE SIMPLE LIFE (with Paris Hilton), one of the Arkansas rustics asked one of the girls to drive the "Polish pickup." It's a wheelbarrow. Only one Google Group hit? Try this search again tomorrow. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 04:46:45 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:46:45 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:45 PM -0500 12/3/03, Dave Wilton wrote: >It appears that Staubach did originate it. > >I'm a bit surprised that HDAS only has it from '82. It's one of the all-time >classic plays in football and even a casual fan can date the term to 12 Dec >1975 when Staubach threw a desperation, last minute pass to Drew Pearson, >who caught it and ran it into the end zone. Dallas beat Minnesota, 17-14, >taking the Divisional Title. Playoff game on 12 Dec? The Hail Mary in question, whether or not it was the first cite, happened later in the season; both the fact that it was a playoff game and the fact that I remember watching it live (well, live on TV) during the LSA conference suggest that it happened between Christmas and New Years', when we used to meet. Dec. 27 or 28, maybe? (According to my computer calendar, those would have been the relevant weekend days.) > Vikings' Cornerback Nate Wright claimed that >Pearson committed offensive pass interference, but the officials never >called the foul. After the game, Staubach said, "it was just a Hail Mary >pass, a very, very lucky play." Evidently as Mr. Clements has discovered, >this was not the first time Staubach used the term. (Some years later, >Pearson admitted that he had indeed committed interference.) > >The other famous '70s football play that uses Marian word play is the >"Immaculate Reception." 23 Dec 1972, losing 7-6 with about a minute left, >Steelers QB Terry Bradshaw threw a pass to halfback John Fuqua. Fuqua was >hit by Raider defenseman as he was catching the ball. It bounced off his >hands, hit another player, and bounced into the hands of Steeler running >back Franco Harris, who ran the ball 42 yards for a touchdown, winning the >game. Some claimed that the ball hit the ground before bouncing into >Harris's hands--which would have been the end of the play, but the refs >didn't call it and the camera angles are inconclusive. (Unlike Pearson, >Harris has never admitted the ball hit the ground, but he does smile and >wink when people bring up the subject.) The term "Immaculate Reception" was >first used by Myron Cope, the Steelers' radio announcer later that night. >The term was suggested by a fan, Michael Ord. I'm pretty sure that history is a bit off too. At the time, the NFL rules prohibited two offensive players touching a pass consecutively (without a defender touching it between the two), so no passes could be batted or tipped accidentally or deliberately by one receiver to another. The Raiders maintained the ball was indeed touched by Fuqua and then Franco Harris, which would have been illegal; the Steelers maintained that the referee correctly ruled the ball was batted by defensive back Art ("They Call Me 'Assassin'") Tatum. Later replays were inconclusive, but on the question of who tapped the ball back to Harris, Fuqua or Tatum, but the preponderance of the evidence is that the refs got it wrong. Nobody to my knowledge claimed the ball hit the ground before making it into Harris's hands, and the replays do make it clear the ball never touched the ground; the question was whether two Steelers touched it in a row, which would have resulted in an all too maculate reception. Since then the rules (like the LSA meeting dates) have been changed, so that the pass would have been been a legal reception on either the Raiders' or Steelers' account of the events, but it would have been a lot less memorable. Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 4 04:54:39 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:54:39 -0500 Subject: "Unemployment" origin wrong in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL Message-ID: The newspapers say something about a word origin. It's ridiculously wrong. I write in to give scholarship away for free. There's no correction. We've seen it all before.."Jazz" has still not been corrected in the NEW YORK SUN. I guess we missed all those pre-Civil War citations. Today, it's "unemployment" in the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 3 December 2003, pg. D1, col. 1: THERE HAVE ALWAYS been people who couldn't work. But until the late 19th century, the word "unemployment" didn't exist. (...) The financial panic of 1873 put a brutal end to this golden age. In the next few years thousands of businesses failed, and the word "unemployed" was assigned a new definition. In an 1873 Massachusetts census, the word referred to anyone without an occupation, which included, for example, children under the age of 10. We'll take a quick look at Literature Online. There should be nothing before 1873--but there is. (UNEMPLOYED) 1. Baker, Daniel, 1653 or 4-1723 [Author Record] Judith. 21Kb, [from Poems upon Several Occasions (1697)] Found 1 hit: IX. 3Kb ...was their Joy secure, and unemploy'd, But all quick Preparation make,... 2. Tate, Nahum, 1652-1715 [Author Record] The third Eclogue.By the same. 9Kb, [from Poems by Several Hands and on Several Occasions : Collected by N. Tate (1685)] Found 1 hit: Celadon, Mopsus. 9Kb ...I know you were not unemploy'd so long; Then tell me,... 3. Wesley, Samuel, 1662-1735 [Author Record] MARLBOROUGH, OR, THE Fate of EUROPE. 50Kb, [from Marlborough (1705)] Found 1 hit: ...Germany ! Nor were they unemploy'd ; nor wou'd the Foe... 1. Dryden, John, 1631-1700 [Author Record] Marriage a la mode (1673) 259Kb MARRIAGE A-la-Mode. A COMEDY. As it is Acted at the THEATRE-ROYAL. 258Kb Found 1 hit: Main text 250Kb ACT II. 45Kb SCENE I. 45Kb ...here. There, he is lazy, unemploy'd, and slow; Here, he's more... 2. Manley, Mrs. (Mary de la Rivi?re), 1663-1724 [Author Record] The royal mischief (1696) 158Kb THE Royal Mischief. A TRAGEDY. 156Kb Found 1 hit: Main text 148Kb ACT II. 31Kb SCENE I. 31Kb ...And left the beauteous Circle unemploy'd; The little God gave new... Poetry (3 entries, 3 hits) Drama (2 entries, 2 hits) Prose (0 entries, 0 hits) ( UNEMPLOYMENT) Gaskell, Elizabeth Cleghorn, 1810-1865 [Author Record] Mary Barton (1849) 976Kb Mary Barton: A Tale of Manchester Life ... In Two Volumes ... Third Edition 974Kb Found 1 hit: VOL. I. 495Kb CHAPTER XV. 31Kb ...present depression of trade, and unemployment of hands, there would be. (MAKING OF AMERICA-MICHIGAN) Author: Sprague, William, 1830-1915. Title: The tax bill. Speech of William Sprague in the Senate of the United States April 8, 1869. Publication date: 1869. Collection: Making of America Books Search results: 2 matches in full text Page 29 - 2 terms matching "unemployment" This is going on at a rapid rate; and you see by the increase of importations--indicative of the unemployment of your people in manufactures, produced by the extortionate rates of interest established for your public securities--that the increase in the cost of your manufactures is so great that the tariff is becoming of no possible protection. (...) Existing prices are starvation prices, because your people are in great numbers in the position of unemployment. The WALL STREET JOURNAL has no fact-checkers?? From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 04:59:18 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:59:18 -0500 Subject: Oops, I did it again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:46 PM -0500 12/3/03, Laurence Horn wrote: > the Steelers >maintained that the referee correctly ruled the ball was batted by >defensive back Art ("They Call Me 'Assassin'") Tatum. Oops. No, they maintained it was batted by *Jack* "the Assassin" Tatum, not by Art ("Don't Shoot Me, I'm Only The Piano Player") Tatum, who wasn't even at the stadium on the day in question. It was Jack who was later made famous by his near-lethal hit on Patriots' receiver Darryl Stingley in a pre-season game that not only knocked him out but paralyzed him for life. At worst, Art Tatum might have hit an off-note once or twice. Sorry about that. Larry From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Dec 4 05:02:13 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:02:13 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You're right, it was Dec 28. A web site misled me about the date. And I could have sworn that the controversy over the Immaculate Reception was that it hit the ground. But I'm going by memory and you're probably right here too. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Laurence Horn > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 11:47 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) > > > At 10:45 PM -0500 12/3/03, Dave Wilton wrote: > >It appears that Staubach did originate it. > > > >I'm a bit surprised that HDAS only has it from '82. It's one of > the all-time > >classic plays in football and even a casual fan can date the > term to 12 Dec > >1975 when Staubach threw a desperation, last minute pass to Drew Pearson, > >who caught it and ran it into the end zone. Dallas beat Minnesota, 17-14, > >taking the Divisional Title. > > Playoff game on 12 Dec? The Hail Mary in question, whether or not it > was the first cite, happened later in the season; both the fact that > it was a playoff game and the fact that I remember watching it live > (well, live on TV) during the LSA conference suggest that it happened > between Christmas and New Years', when we used to meet. Dec. 27 or > 28, maybe? (According to my computer calendar, those would have been > the relevant weekend days.) > > > Vikings' Cornerback Nate Wright claimed that > >Pearson committed offensive pass interference, but the officials never > >called the foul. After the game, Staubach said, "it was just a Hail Mary > >pass, a very, very lucky play." Evidently as Mr. Clements has discovered, > >this was not the first time Staubach used the term. (Some years later, > >Pearson admitted that he had indeed committed interference.) > > > >The other famous '70s football play that uses Marian word play is the > >"Immaculate Reception." 23 Dec 1972, losing 7-6 with about a minute left, > >Steelers QB Terry Bradshaw threw a pass to halfback John Fuqua. Fuqua was > >hit by Raider defenseman as he was catching the ball. It bounced off his > >hands, hit another player, and bounced into the hands of Steeler running > >back Franco Harris, who ran the ball 42 yards for a touchdown, > winning the > >game. Some claimed that the ball hit the ground before bouncing into > >Harris's hands--which would have been the end of the play, but the refs > >didn't call it and the camera angles are inconclusive. (Unlike Pearson, > >Harris has never admitted the ball hit the ground, but he does smile and > >wink when people bring up the subject.) The term "Immaculate > Reception" was > >first used by Myron Cope, the Steelers' radio announcer later that night. > >The term was suggested by a fan, Michael Ord. > > I'm pretty sure that history is a bit off too. At the time, the NFL > rules prohibited two offensive players touching a pass consecutively > (without a defender touching it between the two), so no passes could > be batted or tipped accidentally or deliberately by one receiver to > another. The Raiders maintained the ball was indeed touched by Fuqua > and then Franco Harris, which would have been illegal; the Steelers > maintained that the referee correctly ruled the ball was batted by > defensive back Art ("They Call Me 'Assassin'") Tatum. Later replays > were inconclusive, but on the question of who tapped the ball back to > Harris, Fuqua or Tatum, but the preponderance of the evidence is that > the refs got it wrong. Nobody to my knowledge claimed the ball hit > the ground before making it into Harris's hands, and the replays do > make it clear the ball never touched the ground; the question was > whether two Steelers touched it in a row, which would have resulted > in an all too maculate reception. Since then the rules (like the LSA > meeting dates) have been changed, so that the pass would have been > been a legal reception on either the Raiders' or Steelers' account of > the events, but it would have been a lot less memorable. > > Larry > > From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Dec 4 05:34:24 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:34:24 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) Message-ID: !5 yards on Wilton for mangling the date!. Horn gets the ball at the 9 yard line. First and ten. It was Sunday, Dec. 28, 1975. But my antedating of that still stands. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 11:46 PM Subject: Re: Antedating of "Hail Mary pass" (1974) > At 10:45 PM -0500 12/3/03, Dave Wilton wrote: > >It appears that Staubach did originate it. > > > >I'm a bit surprised that HDAS only has it from '82. It's one of the all-time > >classic plays in football and even a casual fan can date the term to 12 Dec > >1975 when Staubach threw a desperation, last minute pass to Drew Pearson, > >who caught it and ran it into the end zone. Dallas beat Minnesota, 17-14, > >taking the Divisional Title. > > Playoff game on 12 Dec? The Hail Mary in question, whether or not it > was the first cite, happened later in the season; both the fact that > it was a playoff game and the fact that I remember watching it live > (well, live on TV) during the LSA conference suggest that it happened > between Christmas and New Years', when we used to meet. Dec. 27 or > 28, maybe? (According to my computer calendar, those would have been > the relevant weekend days.) > > > Vikings' Cornerback Nate Wright claimed that > >Pearson committed offensive pass interference, but the officials never > >called the foul. After the game, Staubach said, "it was just a Hail Mary > >pass, a very, very lucky play." Evidently as Mr. Clements has discovered, > >this was not the first time Staubach used the term. (Some years later, > >Pearson admitted that he had indeed committed interference.) > > > >The other famous '70s football play that uses Marian word play is the > >"Immaculate Reception." 23 Dec 1972, losing 7-6 with about a minute left, > >Steelers QB Terry Bradshaw threw a pass to halfback John Fuqua. Fuqua was > >hit by Raider defenseman as he was catching the ball. It bounced off his > >hands, hit another player, and bounced into the hands of Steeler running > >back Franco Harris, who ran the ball 42 yards for a touchdown, winning the > >game. Some claimed that the ball hit the ground before bouncing into > >Harris's hands--which would have been the end of the play, but the refs > >didn't call it and the camera angles are inconclusive. (Unlike Pearson, > >Harris has never admitted the ball hit the ground, but he does smile and > >wink when people bring up the subject.) The term "Immaculate Reception" was > >first used by Myron Cope, the Steelers' radio announcer later that night. > >The term was suggested by a fan, Michael Ord. > > I'm pretty sure that history is a bit off too. At the time, the NFL > rules prohibited two offensive players touching a pass consecutively > (without a defender touching it between the two), so no passes could > be batted or tipped accidentally or deliberately by one receiver to > another. The Raiders maintained the ball was indeed touched by Fuqua > and then Franco Harris, which would have been illegal; the Steelers > maintained that the referee correctly ruled the ball was batted by > defensive back Art ("They Call Me 'Assassin'") Tatum. Later replays > were inconclusive, but on the question of who tapped the ball back to > Harris, Fuqua or Tatum, but the preponderance of the evidence is that > the refs got it wrong. Nobody to my knowledge claimed the ball hit > the ground before making it into Harris's hands, and the replays do > make it clear the ball never touched the ground; the question was > whether two Steelers touched it in a row, which would have resulted > in an all too maculate reception. Since then the rules (like the LSA > meeting dates) have been changed, so that the pass would have been > been a legal reception on either the Raiders' or Steelers' account of > the events, but it would have been a lot less memorable. > > Larry > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 4 09:48:51 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 04:48:51 EST Subject: Hail Mary (1972) Message-ID: THE SPORTING NEWS digitization on paperofecord.com looks complete. There are in surprises for "jazz" or "hot dog" or "Yankees" or "Bronx cheer." 15 January 1972, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 8, col. 2: _Hardin Recalls Feat_ His former Navy coach, Wayne Hardin, recalled recently: "I remember a game at Michigan. We were on the 20 and Roger rolled right and got hammered in. He was bobbing and weaving and kept retreating, back to the 30. He was surrounded and upended. "He was parallel to the ground, his feet in mid-air and he threw a pass to Pat Donnelly, who made a one-yard gain. Afterward, I asked if he really saw Pat or if he was throwing it away. "He said, 'Let's just call it my Hail Mary Play.'" So the Cowboys have got staubach and his "Hail Mary" plays, they've got running backs like Duane Thomas and Calvin Hill, they've got top receivers, a talented offensive line and the Doomsday Defense. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 12:23:12 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:23:12 -0500 Subject: "Unemployment" origin wrong in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL In-Reply-To: <200312040454.hB44sm001241@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: Yes, the Wall Street Journal is wrong that the word "unemployment" didn't exist until the late 1800s ("unemployment" is the word, Barry, connoting a sustained condition -- everyone admits that the word "unemployed" was around before then). But it is very hard to find uses of "unemployment" before the late 1800s. A very great historian, E. P. Thompson, wrote in _The Making of the English Working Class_ that he had found uses of the word earlier than the OED's (adding a snide remark that swallows appear in the British Isles weeks before the Times reports them, a remark that appears less snide now in view of the ease with which I and Barry and OED3 are demolishing OED first uses). Thompson, however, did not give any citations. Some years ago I contributed an 1800 citation to the OED. Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 12:46:18 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:46:18 -0500 Subject: More on "Unemployment" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I should add, to clarify my remarks below, that the first use for "unemployment" in the current OED is dated 1888. On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Fred Shapiro wrote: > Yes, the Wall Street Journal is wrong that the word "unemployment" didn't > exist until the late 1800s ("unemployment" is the word, Barry, connoting a > sustained condition -- everyone admits that the word "unemployed" was > around before then). But it is very hard to find uses of > "unemployment" before the late 1800s. A very great historian, E. > P. Thompson, wrote in _The Making of the English Working Class_ that he > had found uses of the word earlier than the OED's (adding a snide remark > that swallows appear in the British Isles weeks before the Times reports > them, a remark that appears less snide now in view of the ease with which > I and Barry and OED3 are demolishing OED first uses). > > Thompson, however, did not give any citations. Some years ago I > contributed an 1800 citation to the OED. > > Fred > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Dec 4 12:48:50 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:48:50 -0500 Subject: OED Pronunciation Variants In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A question came up in my site's discussion group... How does the OED order its pronunciation variants? When one is given it is obviously RP, but what about when variants are given? I couldn't find anything about this in the explanatory material. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From Ittaob at AOL.COM Thu Dec 4 13:55:09 2003 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:55:09 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20How=20to=20Speak=20Chocol?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?atese=20(Gianduja);=20Polish=20Pickup?= Message-ID: In a message dated 12/3/03 11:06:27 PM, Bapopik at aol.com writes: > (GOOGLE) > http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food/index.ssf?DEF_ID=1895 > gianduja > [zhahn-DOO-yah] > The Italian pronunciation of "gianduja" is "jahn-DOO-yah," not "zhahn-DOO-yah." Steve Boatti sjb72 at columbia.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 14:48:20 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:48:20 -0500 Subject: How to Speak Chocol atese (Gianduja); Polish Pickup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:55 AM -0500 12/4/03, Steve Boatti wrote: >In a message dated 12/3/03 11:06:27 PM, Bapopik at aol.com writes: > > >> (GOOGLE) >> http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food/index.ssf?DEF_ID=1895 >> gianduja >> [zhahn-DOO-yah] >> > >The Italian pronunciation of "gianduja" is "jahn-DOO-yah," not >"zhahn-DOO-yah." > Hyperforeignism (the Ta"ZH" Majal/Bei"ZH"ing Syndrome) strikes again! That old Freedom Fricative just keeps popping up, doesn't it? larry From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Dec 4 14:48:18 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:48:18 -0500 Subject: Hail Mary (1972) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 04:48:51AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > 15 January 1972, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 8, col. 2: [...] > "He was parallel to the ground, his feet in mid-air and he threw a pass to > Pat Donnelly, who made a one-yard gain. Afterward, I asked if he really saw > Pat or if he was throwing it away. > "He said, 'Let's just call it my Hail Mary Play.'" I find this and Sam's quote interesting, in that my conception of a Hail Mary play involves a pass that's not only unlikely to be completed, but also, long/high. A 70-yard bomb into the end zone with one receiver surrounded by the entire defense, say. Similarly with other sports. But these quotes show a use unmarked for length, where the notable factor is only the likelihood of success. Jesse Sheidlower OED From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 15:02:25 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:02:25 -0500 Subject: Hail Mary (1972) In-Reply-To: <20031204144818.GB17387@panix.com> Message-ID: At 9:48 AM -0500 12/4/03, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 04:48:51AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >> >> 15 January 1972, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 8, col. 2: >[...] >> "He was parallel to the ground, his feet in mid-air and he >>threw a pass to >> Pat Donnelly, who made a one-yard gain. Afterward, I asked if he really saw >> Pat or if he was throwing it away. >> "He said, 'Let's just call it my Hail Mary Play.'" > >I find this and Sam's quote interesting, in that my conception >of a Hail Mary play involves a pass that's not only unlikely >to be completed, but also, long/high. A 70-yard bomb into the >end zone with one receiver surrounded by the entire defense, >say. Similarly with other sports. > >But these quotes show a use unmarked for length, where the >notable factor is only the likelihood of success. > Which may be why that more general use didn't catch on. I always assumed that the quarterback was praying while the ball was in the air, so the higher and farther it went and the longer it stayed up there, the more likely the prayers were to reach Our Lady and the pass to be completed. And speaking of trajectories, I think this is a case where a Read-style trajectory of the history of the lexical item could be usefully invoked. Just as OK was helped mightily along (although not originated by) the Old Kinderhook connection and the Martin Van Buren campaign's "OK Club", it was really that long pass from Staubach to Drew ("I'm no Columnist") Pearson that eliminated the Vikings in the 1975 playoff game that put the Hail Mary on the lexical map, although clearly it had been around for at least three years before that. larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 15:01:02 2003 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:01:02 -0500 Subject: Hail Mary (1972) In-Reply-To: <20031204144818.GB17387@panix.com> Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower said: >On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 04:48:51AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >> >> 15 January 1972, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 8, col. 2: >[...] >> "He was parallel to the ground, his feet in mid-air and he >>threw a pass to >> Pat Donnelly, who made a one-yard gain. Afterward, I asked if he really saw >> Pat or if he was throwing it away. >> "He said, 'Let's just call it my Hail Mary Play.'" > >I find this and Sam's quote interesting, in that my conception >of a Hail Mary play involves a pass that's not only unlikely >to be completed, but also, long/high. A 70-yard bomb into the >end zone with one receiver surrounded by the entire defense, >say. Similarly with other sports. In addition to the "desperation, long heave" aspect of a Hail Mary, I think it also involves time running out in the half (or the game). -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 15:50:29 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:50:29 -0500 Subject: Hail Mary (1972) In-Reply-To: <20031204144818.GB17387@panix.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > I find this and Sam's quote interesting, in that my conception > of a Hail Mary play involves a pass that's not only unlikely > to be completed, but also, long/high. A 70-yard bomb into the > end zone with one receiver surrounded by the entire defense, > say. Similarly with other sports. > > But these quotes show a use unmarked for length, where the > notable factor is only the likelihood of success. Also a key element of usage is that the Hail Mary play is a desperation pass with time running out and the game on the line. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Dec 4 16:26:49 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:26:49 EST Subject: OED first uses Message-ID: In a message dated 12/4/03 7:59:00 AM, fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: > ... a remark that appears less snide now in view of the ease with which > I and Barry and OED3 are demolishing OED first uses). > Well, "demolish" strikes me as rather too strong a word. S seems to suggest that the OED was primarily conceived of as a dictionary of first uses. In fact, though interesting and occasionally even useful, "first uses" is a relatively trivial aspect of lexicography, aqnd marginal predatings by only a few years is even moreso. The OED clearly meant to suggest only that "these are the first uses that we've come up with so far," not "these are the first uses that anyone will ever find." It is a truism of lexicography that true first uses will never be in a dictionary, since they almost always are oral, not written. The fact that someone may find that, say, UNEMPLOYMENT was first used in print 5 years before the particular cite that the OED printed is certainly nice to have, but the OED is scacely "demolished" therby. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 16:36:48 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:36:48 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Make A Federal Case Out Of It" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The phrase "make a federal case out of it" is not in OED or HDAS. The earliest that has been found for this, I believe, is a 1955 _Time_ citation in Merriam-Webster's files. I have found the following on ProQuest: 1952 _N.Y. Times_ 6 Apr. X1 But we won't make a Federal case of it; the point is that "Singin' in the Rain" kids an era and a style of film-production about as well as it has ever been done. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Thu Dec 4 17:32:58 2003 From: mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:32:58 -0500 Subject: How to Speak Chocolatese (Gianduja) In-Reply-To: <200312040512.hB45Cdk8004516@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Barry wrote: >>> HOW TO SPEAK CHOCOLATESE I speak the rare Cadburian dialect. From Wednesday's NEW YORK TIMES: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/03/dining/03CGLO.html Glossary: How to Speak Chocolatese ALLOTIN The traditional long, deep box used for packing chocolates in Europe. <<< GHOST WORD ALERT! This looked wrong to me, because of all the time////money I've spent hanging out at Godiva stores. The word is "ballotin". The Times's web article begins with a large drop capital "B" as a graphic, which did not copy into Barry's text. The loss wasn't noticeable in the quote because the next word is "bloom", so the change of "ballotin" to *"allotin" didn't disrupt the alphabetical order. These drop caps are common in web articles, and one just has to be alert for them. -- Mark A. Mandel From cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU Thu Dec 4 18:14:40 2003 From: cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Clai Rice) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:14:40 -0600 Subject: "Gay" is a bad "wurd" Message-ID: Here's our local report from today's paper: http://www.theadvertiser.com/news/html/6E2B0EF0-A452-4DF5-AB87-564DD46C8F6B. shtml Both the school board president and the faculty advisor for PRIDE are English Dept faculty members and friends whose offices are right next to one another. Needless to say, the joint is jumping this morning. Clai Rice -----Original Message----- From: Kathleen E. Miller [mailto:millerk at NYTIMES.COM] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 4:05 PM Subject: FYI: "Gay" is a bad "wurd" Did anybody read this? My mouth is still open in shock... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29820-2003Dec2.html http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/03/national/03GAY.html Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Dec 4 19:35:55 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:35:55 -0800 Subject: Hail Mary (1972) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Laurence Horn : > Which may be why that more general use didn't catch on. I always > assumed that the quarterback was praying while the ball was in the > air, so the higher and farther it went and the longer it stayed up > there, the more likely the prayers were to reach Our Lady and the > pass to be completed. > > And speaking of trajectories, I think this is a case where a > Read-style trajectory of the history of the lexical item could be > usefully invoked. Just as OK was helped mightily along (although not > originated by) the Old Kinderhook connection and the Martin Van Buren > campaign's "OK Club", it was really that long pass from Staubach to > Drew ("I'm no Columnist") Pearson that eliminated the Vikings in the > 1975 playoff game that put the Hail Mary on the lexical map, although > clearly it had been around for at least three years before that. But somewhat different in that the earlier uses are all by Staubach. This would seem to be a case where the term was in his personal vocabulary, and few if any others', until the famous pass against the Vikings. As to whether the term can be applied to short dump-offs as well as long bombs, it appears as if Staubach didn't originally make a distinction. It was simply a desperation pass of any kind. The famous incident cemented the more specific sense in the general vocabulary. -- Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 19:36:19 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:36:19 -0500 Subject: OED first uses In-Reply-To: <12e.36c258ac.2d00ba49@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > Well, "demolish" strikes me as rather too strong a word. S seems to suggest > that the OED was primarily conceived of as a dictionary of first uses. > > In fact, though interesting and occasionally even useful, "first uses" > is a relatively trivial aspect of lexicography, aqnd marginal predatings > by only a few years is even moreso. The OED clearly meant to suggest > only that "these are the first uses that we've come up with so far," not > "these are the first uses that anyone will ever find." You are right that first uses are just one aspect of the OED, which also is intended to provide authoritative information on etymology, significations, illustration of usage over time, pronunciation, etc. It is easy on this listserv to forget that the OED is not all, or even primarily, about first uses. However, first uses are a significant component of what people look to the OED for, and the OED devotes a tremendous amount of effort to researching and verifying first uses. The current electronic revolution in historical-lexicographical research, spearheaded by me and Barry and the OED itself, is demolishing the first uses in the original OED and bringing more attention to first uses in general than was ever the case before. First uses now are arguably becoming a different kind of animal than they were before, approaching more closely the elusive true origins of words. (This is true even for slang vocabulary.) I think if you asked John Simpson or Jesse Sheidlower whether the word "demolish" was appropriate, they might agree that it is not too strong a word. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Dec 4 21:46:47 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:46:47 -0500 Subject: OED first uses In-Reply-To: <12e.36c258ac.2d00ba49@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 11:26:49AM -0500, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 12/4/03 7:59:00 AM, fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: > > > > ... a remark that appears less snide now in view of the ease with which > > I and Barry and OED3 are demolishing OED first uses). > > > Well, "demolish" strikes me as rather too strong a word. S seems to suggest > that the OED was primarily conceived of as a dictionary of first uses. > > In fact, though interesting and occasionally even useful, "first uses" is a > relatively trivial aspect of lexicography, aqnd marginal predatings by only a > few years is even moreso. The OED clearly meant to suggest only that "these are > the first uses that we've come up with so far," not "these are the first uses > that anyone will ever find." > > It is a truism of lexicography that true first uses will never be in a > dictionary, since they almost always are oral, not written. The fact that someone > may find that, say, UNEMPLOYMENT was first used in print 5 years before the > particular cite that the OED printed is certainly nice to have, but the OED is > scacely "demolished" therby. I might agree about the relative strength of "demolish", but I can't say I agree with much of the rest of this, Ron. While "first uses" may be a relatively trivial aspect of lexicography as a whole, it seems to me to be an enormously important aspect of historical lexicography. Certainly OED knows that in almost all cases their first quotes are not the absolute, rock-solid, this-is-the-coinage first quotes, and that we're only doing the best we can. And while it's true that many antedatings of a couple of years may be of minor import, this case strikes me as different. Here we have what is perhaps the most important financial publication in the English-speaking world making a broad claim about the cultural history of labor, based solely on a false account of the origin of a word. The (false) connection to a particular event, the panic of 1873, also serves to distort the historical record. Providing accurate information about such uses seems to me to be exactly what the purpose of the OED is, or at least a very big part of its purpose, not a minor part to be dismissed as 'relatively trivial' and 'occasionally even useful'. Jesse Sheidlower OED From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Dec 4 23:21:54 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:21:54 -0500 Subject: "Unemployment" origin wrong in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL Message-ID: For those interested in the article by Cynthia Crossen, it can be viewed at http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/12/03/financial1047EST0058.DTL The article does suggest that "unemployed" gained its current meaning of forced idleness only in the 1870s. Crossen is actually using etymology to make historical points, and going astray as she does so. Her thesis is that unemployment is a product of the industrial revolution and was unknown in America prior to that time. Actually, forced idleness among the able-bodied (whether or not called unemployment) is a very old phenomenon and was, for example, well-known in ancient Rome. That was somewhat alleviated in America because of the existence of large amounts of untilled potential farmland, a phenomenon having nothing to do with the industrial revolution. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Fred Shapiro [mailto:fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 7:23 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Unemployment" origin wrong in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL Yes, the Wall Street Journal is wrong that the word "unemployment" didn't exist until the late 1800s ("unemployment" is the word, Barry, connoting a sustained condition -- everyone admits that the word "unemployed" was around before then). But it is very hard to find uses of "unemployment" before the late 1800s. A very great historian, E. P. Thompson, wrote in _The Making of the English Working Class_ that he had found uses of the word earlier than the OED's (adding a snide remark that swallows appear in the British Isles weeks before the Times reports them, a remark that appears less snide now in view of the ease with which I and Barry and OED3 are demolishing OED first uses). Thompson, however, did not give any citations. Some years ago I contributed an 1800 citation to the OED. Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dsgood at VISI.COM Thu Dec 4 23:23:46 2003 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 17:23:46 -0600 Subject: "Gay" is a bad "wurd" In-Reply-To: <20031204181616.EA3974A27@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Clai Rice wrote: > Here's our local report from today's paper: > > http://www.theadvertiser.com/news/html/6E2B0EF0-A452-4DF5-AB87-564DD46C8F6B. > shtml "The page you requested cannot be found. It may have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable." However, it can be found at http://www.theadvertiser.com/news/html/6E2B0EF0-A452-4DF5-AB87-564DD46C8F6B.shtml There's discussion of this on The Volokh Conspiracy http://www.volokh.com, among other political blogs. > Both the school board president and the faculty advisor for PRIDE are > English Dept faculty members and friends whose offices are right next to one > another. Needless to say, the joint is jumping this morning. > > Clai Rice > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kathleen E. Miller [mailto:millerk at NYTIMES.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 4:05 PM > Subject: FYI: "Gay" is a bad "wurd" > > > Did anybody read this? My mouth is still open in shock... > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29820-2003Dec2.html > > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/03/national/03GAY.html > > > > Kathleen E. Miller > Research Assistant to William Safire > The New York Times > > -- Dan Goodman Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 5 01:50:39 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:50:39 -0500 Subject: Rumaki (1950); Kobe Beef (1959) and Wagyu (1971) Message-ID: The ProQuest LOS ANGELES TIMES is now at May 1953. We'll have "Murphy's Law" in a week or two, and maybe "the whole nine yards" by year's end. Thanks to Mark Mandel for knowing "Chocolatese" and correcting an error. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ RUMAKI I had posted 1957, from the NEW YORK TIMES. Islands Thrill Largest Cargo of Southlanders Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 23, 1950. p. C7 (1 page): Set off by shrimp, rumaki, egg roll, rum punches in bamboo cups, ami amis and other variegated hula motions, Don (Don the Beachcomber, of Hawaii--ed.) emerged as a tired Tahitian beachcomber to execute his own version of aboriginal terpsichore. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ KOBE BEEF AND WAYGU Neither "Kobe Beef" nor "Wagyu" is in the OED. The basketball player Kobe Bryant was named after Kobe Beef, a "Wagyu" that comes from Kobe, Japan. They are famous in the United States for being very expensive. Japanese food is all over the Los Angeles area, but there isn't anything much in the LOS ANGELES TIMES to May 1953. KOBE BEEF--14,300 Google hits KOBE STEAK--1,610 Google hits KOBE MEAT--57 Google hits WAGYU--12,100 Google hits From the NEW YORK SUN, 3 December 2003, pg. 19, col. 1: _The Steak Debate_ _What's the Difference Between Wagyu and Prime Beef?_ By PAUL LUKAS (...) "Wagyu" (pronounced "WAH-gyu") literally means Japanese cattle, but that's a misnomer, because the breed is actually native to the Asian mainland and was brought to Japan in the second century. (...) Depending on the cut, the Prime steaks ranged from $33 to $60 a pound--not cheap, but a relative bargain compared to the Wagyus, which ran from $53 to $118 a pound. (...) ...while the Wagyus were only a small step up from Prime. Is that step enough to justify the huge price difference? Personally, I don't think so. (GOOGLE) http://members.tripod.com/~BayGourmet/wagyu.html Kobe Beef vs Wagyu cattle: What is this stuff, anyways? Kobe Beef is a legendary delicacy of Japan, a type of beef that is so well marbled that it goes right off the charts for Prime grading in any other country. The meat ends up looking like it has been left out in the snow because of the intensiveness of the white fat marbling, rivals foie gras for richness and caloric content, and costs an obscene amount, often $300 a pound or more for the real thing from Japan. I have been exhaustively researching the topic of Kobe Beef in the hopes of purchasing one of those legendary cattle for about a year, since I had heard that they were ranched successfully in the United States for sale to a hungry Japanese market. I finally succeeded, but it wasn't an easy task. Here's why. Let's start with the basics?Kobe beef comes from a breed of cattle called Wagyu. In order to earn the designation/appellation of "Kobe Beef", the Wagyu beef must come from Kobe, Japan, and meet rigid production standards imposed in that prefecture. However, land and grain are expensive in Japan. So what is happening is that the beef production houses in Kobe have been contracting out to other producers to custom raise their cattle for them. Most specifically, Harris Ranch in California, among other producers in America and Australia?land and grain is cheap over there, and it's worth the shipping costs to have the cattle raised overseas. So they have the cattle raised to their exactingly specified Kobe standards, and they actually fabricate the carcasses in Kobe, making them legally "Kobe Beef" even though the cattle were actually born, bred and fed somewhere else. The "Wagyu beef" designation can legally be applied to the meat from any cattle of the Wagyu breed; it's a genetic thing, not a place appellation or a reference to how the cattle were raised and fed. This breed is genetically predisposed to intense marbling, and produces a higher percentage of oleaginous, unsaturated fat than any other breed of cattle known in the world. The reason for this is that Japan has been selectively breeding for marbling grade for centuries, while cattle ranchers in America relied on external conformation until just a few decades ago. Even today, carcass evaluation is a relatively new step in show judging, and only beginning to be a factor in the professional stud books of other countries. Okay, why is it so bloody expensive and hard to find? In summary, Wagyu cattle are astounding in yield grade and marbling, significantly superior in this respect to any other known breed. So why aren't more farmers ranching them in America? Simple. Not enough of a market. The massive supermarket chains (Safeway, Lucky, FoodsCo, etc) carry Select grade beef which has minimal marbling. They restructured and lowered the grading of beef itself at one point (I think in the 1940's, but I could be mistaken on this) to reflect a more conservation conscious economy, because cattle fed out to a lower ratio of marbling were a more efficient return on resources. So today's Select grade beef (which is below Prime and below Choice) is lean indeed, the equivalent of pre-war Good grade. While Wagyu beef has healthier fat (if there is such a thing!) and less waste backfat that American breeds, lean and skinny it is not, and the market for high prime beef is very limited in America. It's fit to mass market only in Japan, so there it all goes, even if it's largely ranched elsewhere these days. Annoyingly, when we in America want to purchase Wagyu, we have one of two options: we can buy it shipped back over from Japan at some insane cost per pound that includes two transoceanic fares, or we can try to track down an independent Wagyu rancher who will sell one carcass. This is harder than you think. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR) TRAVEL/EDITOR'S DIARY by Leavitt F. morris. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Nov 23, 1965. p. 15 (1 page): Then came the elaborate menu offering such choices as Kobe beef, lamb chops, or chicken, and all that goes with them. This sumptuous meal was served prior to the fueling stop in Tokyo. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEW YORK TIMES) Display Ad 21 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 26, 1959. p. 21 (1 page): One special delicacy served on Northwest flights out of Tokyo is filet mignon from world famous Kobe Beef. Japan Pampers Contented Cows; Favor Is Returned in Steaks Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 13, 1960. p. 127 (1 page): Not all of this beef comes from Matsuzaka, whose fine product is less well known abroad than "Kobe beef," so called because so much of the output of the cattle-raising centers in southern Honshu us shipped through that busy port on the Pacific side of the island. (...) Twice a day, every day, the animal is brushed and given a rubdown with a bundle of rough rice straw after being sprayed with "shochu," a cheap, potent potato distillation favored as an intoxicating drink by Japanese lower classes. FAIR'S KITCHENS: STUDIES IN STEEL By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 20, 1964. p. 25 (1 page): Hank Takeshi Takahashi, as assistant manager, said that the Kobe beef for the restaurant will be flown in from Japan. Kobe beef, one of the most tender beefs, comes from animals that are massaged and fed beer before they are slaughtered. A Pampered Life Ends as Steak at $14 a Pound By JAMES P. STERBA Special to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 8, 1971. p. 48 (1 page): Many Americans have heard of or tasted Kobe beef, but in Japan these days Matsuzaka beef is considered superior. (...) Matsuzaka and Kobe cows are the same breed--a Japanese shorthair called wagyu--and are raised essentially the same way, but cattlemen here insist that their beef has more flavor. Rich Japanese Beef Barred From U.S. By BRYAN MILLER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 18, 1990. p. C1 (2 pages) Rich Japanese Beef's Here. Call It Wagyu. By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 7, 1990. p. C9 (1 page) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL WASHINGTON POST) Kobe Beef -- From Pampered Pet to Costly Steak By Rose Dosti Los Angeles Times. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jul 27, 1978. p. E20 (1 page) (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark KOBE BEEF Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 029. US 046. G & S: PACKAGED CUT MEATS FROM REGISTERED WAGYU BEEF CATTLE. FIRST USE: 19760226. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19760226 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73707432 Filing Date January 25, 1988 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) WAGYU BREEDERS, INC. CORPORATION TEXAS BOX 187 ROUTE 1 ROSEBUD TEXAS 76570 Attorney of Record J. D. SHERLOCK, JR. Description of Mark NO CLAIM IS MADE AS TO COLOR. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date November 7, 1988 (JSTOR) (in Review Section) Beef in Japan: Politics, Production, Marketing and Trade John W. Longworth Technological Change in Japan's Beef Industry James Simpson; Tadashi Yoshida; Akira Miyazaki; Ryohei Kada Review author[s]: Fred H. Sanderson Journal of Japanese Studies, Vol. 13, No. 1. (Winter, 1987), pp. 224-229. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 02:05:10 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:05:10 -0500 Subject: Rumaki (1950); Kobe Beef (1959) and Wagyu (1971) In-Reply-To: <7B67B00F.60654D84.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > The ProQuest LOS ANGELES TIMES is now at May 1953. We'll have > "Murphy's Law" in a week or two, and maybe "the whole nine yards" by > year's end. But haven't we already passed the big "Murphy's Law" milestone, seeing that John Paul Stapp's celebrated 1950 press conference is not covered by the L.A. Times? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 5 03:11:36 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:11:36 -0500 Subject: Mom-and-Pop Store (1943); Heirhead (1988); Subway Series (1932) Message-ID: MOM-AND-POP STORE The revised OED has 1951? Fair Enough WESTBROOK PEGLER. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 9, 1943. p. A (1 page): NEW YORK, July 8.--You take my friend Joe, a member of the numerous Spelvin tribe of Americans and a first cousin of George Spelvin, the All-American American. Joe is a one-horse grocer. His little pitch is what the big chains and certain government agencies call a Mom and Pop store. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HEIRHEADS Paris Hilton is not an "heirhead." She just doesn't know what a "well" is! She's just not "well" educated! But not an heirhead! Column Name: CAMPAIGN REPORT Section: NEWS Publication title: San Francisco Chronicle (pre-1997 Fulltext). San Francisco, Calif.: Oct 21, 1988. pg. A.28 Source Type: Newspaper `NEWSPAPER NEEDLES QUAYLE "Quayle Becomes President `Uh-Oh,' Says Worried Nation." That headline appears on a free, single-page broadsheet, the Washington Possible, that lampoons Republican vice presidential candidate Dan Quayle. It is being circulated in a half-dozen cities. Josh Baran, a Los Angeles public relations man, "conceived and produced" the paper. Its $25,000 cost was paid by 32-year-old Jeremy Sherman of San Francisco, an heir to the Midas Muffler fortune, who said of Quayle, "He may be representative of some of our generation in his empty-headedness, but we can expect more from ourselves." The 20,000-circulation Washington Possible, dated Oct. 21, 19??, imagines the "sudden death" of President George Bush ("See Bush Dies Suddenly, Sec. B, Page 12"). A small picture below the fold depicts the "Inaugural Hole:" "9th hole (Par 4, 350 yds.) at Chevy Chase CC. After Quayle took oath of office at tee, he shot a double bogey six." Quayle's career is summarized: "From Heirhead to President." (WWW.NYTIMES.COM) ARTS AND LEISURE DESK | November 16, 2003, Sunday $ TELEVISION; The Season of the Heirheads By DWIGHT GARNER (NYT) 1603 words (PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS) Copyright 2003 The American Prospect, Inc. The American Prospect April, 2003 SECTION: DEVIL IN THE DETAILS; Pg. 10 LENGTH: 692 words HEADLINE: Recalling Gray BODY: YOU MAY HAVE THOUGHT the 2002 elections were over, but a fat lot you know. Just three months after he squeaked to victory over a certifiable stiff, California Gov. Gray Davis may be facing a formidable recall campaign. Recalls, as our more historically minded readers surely recall, were instituted to remove elected officials who'd done something dreadful but who wouldn't be facing the voters for some time to come. In this instance, however, no one is alleging that Davis has done anything of questionable legality, much less since November. It's just that the Republicans want another shot at him, and still believe that if they'd had a sentient nominee last fall, they would have won. (Their nominee last year, businessman Bill Simon Jr., calls to mind few comparable figures in contemporary politics, but if you've ever seen Rudy Vallee playing his usual smiling, clueless, heirhead millionaire in a '30s or '40s comedy, you'll get the picture.) (LEXIS-NEXIS) Copyright 2003 Cox Enterprises, Inc. Cox News Service December 1, 2003 Monday SECTION: Entertainment, Television and Culture LENGTH: 1320 words HEADLINE: How you gonna keep them off the farm when they've seen Paris BYLINE: KEVIN D. THOMPSON DATELINE: WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. BODY: Dancing on tables at wild parties. Catfighting in a club over some guy. Taping yourself having sex _ and then taking a cellphone call in the middle of the shenanigans! No wonder they're calling Paris Hilton an "heirhead." Not that those highly publicized exploits are hurting 22-year-old Paris, who along with her younger sister, Nicky, 21, is heir to the $3.8 billion Hilton hotel fortune and Hollywood's latest It Girl. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SUBWAY SERIES The earliest from the newly digitized SPORTING NEWS. Again, I didn't see "subway series" used during the 1921, 1922, and 1923 Yankees-Giants matchups. Ancestry had a "subway series" from 1928. 22 September 1932, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 3, col. 6: It was Hug who piloted the Yanks in their three subway series with the Giants--in 1921, 1922 and 1923. From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Dec 5 03:33:45 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:33:45 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20OED=20first=20uses?= Message-ID: Very sensible and wise words, Jesse. Thanks. I did not mean to be dismissive: if first uses were totally useless and trivial, it would be a waste of space to print them at all. Quite right that this seems indeed to be one of those occasions when establishing first use may be quite important. In a message dated 12/4/03 4:47:14 PM, jester at PANIX.COM writes: > Certainly OED knows that in almost all cases their first > quotes are not the absolute, rock-solid, this-is-the-coinage > first quotes, and that we're only doing the best we can. > > And while it's true that many antedatings of a couple of years > may be of minor import, this case strikes me as different. Here > we have what is perhaps the most important financial > publication in the English-speaking world making a broad > claim about the cultural history of labor, based solely on a > false account of the origin of a word. The (false) connection > to a particular event, the panic of 1873, also serves to > distort the historical record. > > Providing accurate information about such uses seems to me to > be exactly what the purpose of the OED is, or at least a very > big part of its purpose, not a minor part to be dismissed as > 'relatively trivial' and 'occasionally even useful'. > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 5 08:36:39 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 03:36:39 EST Subject: Fungee, Chibble, Gooks, Spigs (1920) Message-ID: ROAMING THROUGH THE WEST INDIES by Harry A. Franck New York: Blue Ribbon Books 1920 "Fungi" or "fungee" is still earlier. Harry Franck (1881-?) was a great American travel writer. His books, although without footnotes, are well detailed, and he's especially interested in language. His book about Panama, ZONE POLICEMAN 88 (1913), has "spigotty." OED cites him only 10 times. I haven't read Franck that much because I've been concentrating on older stuff (1600s and 1700s and 1800s), but NYU has most of his books. I'll check soon to see if WALKING NORTH OF PATAGONIA (1921) has "dulce de leche." It must be nice to be a travel writer. I never get to go anywhere. Pg. 28: Baseball--commonly pronounced "bahseh-bahl" throughout the island--has won a firm foothold in Cuba. (Not "beisbol"?--ed.) Pg. 66: Musically the Cuban is best at the native _danzon_, a refinement of the savage African _rumba_. (OED has 1922 for "rhumba." M-W has 1916--ed.) Pg. 99: There are lobsters also, and the finest of all Cuban sea foods is the _congrejo moro_, a huge crab with a beautiful red and black shell. Pg. 103: Graft, known in Cuba as "_chivo_," is hereditary in the chief of the West Indies. Pg. 180: The majority of our forces of occupation are so decidedly a credit to their country that it needed the contrast of such types as these to explain why the "Gooks," as the natives are popularly known among their class, generally resent our presence on Haitian soil. Pg. 203: First of all there were the "chivo" cigars,--_chivo_ meaning not merely goat but something corresponding to our word "graft" in the Spanish West Indies--which never made any pretense of bearing a stamp. Pg. 204: "Big George" arranged that we should spend the first Sunday after our arrival in the most typical Dominican style of celebration,--the partaking of _lechon asado_. Pg. 239: I should like to see all those removed from our forces of occupation who have not a proper respect for Dominicans; not an unbounded respect--I haven't that myself--but who at least admit that our wards are human beings, with their own rights and customs, and not merely "Spigs" and "niggers." Pg. 297: A more serious thing is the prevalence of "t. b."--which missionaries on the island dub "tin box." Pg. 306: In local parlance a "five minutes' walk" means a block. (Virgin Islands--ed.) Pg. 308: This is a plate of "fungee," a nauseating mixture of fish and corn-meal, which to the local taste is preferable to the most succulent beefsteak. Pg. 333: There is no hookworm and little malaria; but much pellagra and "big leg," or elephantiasis. Pg. 334: The doctors of "West End" found nothing unusual in the case of a baby that was brought to the hostial already dead because the father had taken it first to a native healer, who put "chibble" (pot herbs) under its nose to cure it of acute indigestion. ("Chibble" is not in the OED--ed.) Pg. 342: This had magnified the constant enmity between the St. Kittens--or whatever is the proper term--and the inhabitants of "that other country," as they called it;... Pg. 287: Parasites and climbing lianas, that death-dealing vine called _matapalo_ by the Spaniards and "Scotch attorney" by the Trinidadians, which finally chokes to death the tree that sustains it, usurping its heritage of nourishment, give the forest wall the appearance of a great carelessly woven tapestry. (OED has "Scotch attorney" from 1864, but it's nicely described here. Those evil lawyers!--ed.) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Dec 5 10:30:40 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 04:30:40 -0600 Subject: Fungee, Chibble, Gooks, Spigs (1920)---(look at "chivo") Message-ID: "chivo"--- goat, graft. What's the connection? Gerald Cohen -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Bapopik at AOL.COM Sent: Fri 12/5/2003 2:36 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Fungee, Chibble, Gooks, Spigs (1920) ROAMING THROUGH THE WEST INDIES by Harry A. Franck New York: Blue Ribbon Books 1920 ... Pg. 103: Graft, known in Cuba as "_chivo_," is hereditary in the chief of the West Indies. Pg. 203: First of all there were the "chivo" cigars,--_chivo_ meaning not merely goat but something corresponding to our word "graft" in the Spanish West Indies--which never made any pretense of bearing a stamp. ... From db.list at PMPKN.NET Fri Dec 5 13:55:03 2003 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:55:03 -0500 Subject: How to Speak Chocolatese (Gianduja); Polish Pickup Message-ID: From: Laurence Horn : At 8:55 AM -0500 12/4/03, Steve Boatti wrote: :: In a message dated 12/3/03 11:06:27 PM, Bapopik at aol.com writes: ::: (GOOGLE) ::: http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food/index.ssf?DEF_ID=1895 ::: gianduja ::: [zhahn-DOO-yah] :: The Italian pronunciation of "gianduja" is "jahn-DOO-yah," not :: "zhahn-DOO-yah." : Hyperforeignism (the Ta"ZH" Majal/Bei"ZH"ing Syndrome) strikes again! : That old Freedom Fricative just keeps popping up, doesn't it? I don't know if this is necessarily hyperforeignism--some of us simply have rampant [Z]s where others might have [dZ]s. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Dec 5 15:20:58 2003 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:20:58 -0600 Subject: Cowboy Lingo? Message-ID: There is a difference between cowboy lingo which I would guess is by and large a Hollywood invention and the way cowboys actually speak. The following is a poem by Curly Fletcher entitled The Open Book. You will note that cowboys are an inside group and have little use for Hollywood. Having lived with and worked with a cowboy I know of what I say. Page Stephens The Open BookDigital Tradition Mirror The Open Book (Curly Fletcher) You've been tamped full of shit about cowboys; They are known as a romantic band-- Bold knights of the saddle, who round up wild cattle, And roll cigarettes with one hand. Now according to movie and story, He's a sheik in a ten gallon hat. All he knows of romance is the crotch of his pants, What the hell do you think about that? So it's high time somebody debunked him; He's so plumb full of crap, and, besides, A bullshittin' bastard who's always half-plastered Is no hero just 'cause he rides. Now I've harvested wool in Wyoming And rawhide in New Mexico. I've worn a bandana in Sheepshit, Montana, And raped squaws over in Idaho. So me, I'm plumb soured on cowpunchers; In fact, I ride sour long ago. The clap ridden slats in their ten gallon hats Ain't worth a damn that I know. But each range breeds its own brand of bastard And boozefighter, bugger or bum; Every half-assed vaquero who wears a sombrero Is marked by the range he is from. Some come from the Canadian Rockies, Some drift from the southwestern plains. It surely beats hell, but it's easy to tell Where each learned to tighten his reins. Take for instance the Panhandle hairpin, Widely known by the moniker "Tex"; He's a son-of-a-bitch with a bad trigger itch And a big Bowie knife complex. Why at heart he's an unpaid policeman, And he'll brag of tough spots he's been in. But his powder is damp, and his gun hand will cramp When he draws near a cotton gin. Take the clip-cock from California, He's been christened "The Native Son." A half-baked vaquero who has no dinero, But no worse than the general run. He's a cross between a greaser and gringo, Produced by the whore from the mine, A renegade breed that's gone plumb to seed, Since the gold rush of forty-nine. There's boosters from Oklahoma, And bastards from Arkansas, But they're just cotton pickers and tinhorn dice lickers With not too much in their craw. There's the pistol prick out in Nebraska, He's known as the corn sucker class. >From the cootie that crawls on his crab ridden balls To the piles that blister his ass. Count the cocksman from Colorado, Where Pike's Peak ponders and broods. A miner and mucker, the phony cock-sucker, And his racket is wranglin' dudes. He sponsors a double-rigged saddle; His gifts are the gifts of the gab; With a rope made of grass and teeth in his ass, The best he can get is the tab. Take the "never sweat" from Nevada, He's known as the "Son of the Sage." A tinhorn card hustler and discard cunt rustler, A throw back to some ancient age. He sponsors a center-fire saddle, And his brains have a chronic limp. Just a contrary fart and a cow thief at heart, And actually just a lunch bucket pimp. Now we can't overlook Arizona; He's a son of the old Sacatone. An ornery critter and a famous bullshitter, About the sorriest seed ever sown. He's bothered by Mexican heartburn With protruding piles and gut; A red hot tamale is right down his alley, 'Tis a diet his ass hole can't cut. There's that whistle-prick out there in Utah; He was sired by old Brigham Young, The sap sucking swizzler and cunt cheating chiseler, Of the barrel he's only the bung. Often called the crying Jack Mormon, His penchant is guzzling booze. He's got a round ass and can't ride nor lass', And he'd give a sad jackass the blues. There's a flute blower out in Dakota, Just a liar, and, what's more, A psalm singing sooner, a guitar picking crooner And as worthless as tits on a boar. His tongue is diseased with diarrhea, The half-breed gut eating tramp. He knows more of plows than he savies of cows, And was born with his ass in a cramp. That greaser from down in Chihuahua, He claims he's a cowpuncher, too. He curses the gringo in that Mexican lingo, But that's about all he can do. He sponsors a rawhide riata, And he straddles a silver trimmed rig; Just a counterfeit chump, the result of a hump, Twixt a Spaniard, a Yaqui, and a Jig. There's a herd in the Hollywood movies; You can find them at Sunset and Gower. And brother to brother they bullshit each other, And just bellyache by the hour. 'Course they're just a mixed bunch of bastards Of that there is damn little doubt. And each sorry hand wears the mark of the brand Of the country that had him run out. All in all, they're considered half-witted And the curse of the wide open west. Whether Canada twister or Oregon mister, They're just sons of bitches at best. No, there isn't much difference in cowboys, Whether hemorrhoid, stool or hard turd; Spring, summer, and fall, I've rode with them all And maintain they're a plumb sorry herd. Now I might be a gullible gunsel, But at that, why, I ain't too damn dumb; If a she-sheep don't cross with her herder or boss, Where in hell are them cowpunchers from? So now that I've opened the ledger On cowpunchers as they be, Some frijole chomper or half-assed bronc stomper Will kick all the shit out of me. Now, just so you won't die of wonder, Why a "Native Son" is what I am, And what I've tried hard to say in an indirect way Is that cowpunchers ain't worth a damn. As for those I've neglected to mention, Why, it's not that I can't find the rhyme; But between you and me, I've got work to do And those bastards just ain't worth my time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Dacolias" To: Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 3:54 AM Subject: Cowboy Lingo? > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Chris Dacolias > Subject: Cowboy Lingo? > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > My question regards a dialect spoken in the west after > the civil war and before the turn of the century in > the American west. Some might call this a version of > "cowboy language". This dialect was consistently used > during the recent film "Open Range" a western set in > 1888 starring Kevin Costner. In an interview, Costner > referred to the dialect as "Victorian language". I > didn't know quite what he meant. > > An example of the dialect follows: > "We got a warrant sworn for attempted murder for them > that tried to kill the boy who's laying over there at > the Doc's, trying to stay alive. Swore out another one > for them that murdered the big fella you had in your > cell. Only ours ain't writ by no tin star, bought and > paid for, Marshall. It's writ by us, and we aim to > enforce it." > > "for them that tried to kill the boy" really stands > out as a great example of the grammar of this dialect. > It's not merely poor grammar, there's a style and > consistency to it. > > Can anyone help me identify what characteristics unite > this dialect, or where I can find out more information > about it? > > Thank you very much. > Konrad O"Milor > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now > http://companion.yahoo.com/ From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Dec 5 15:58:12 2003 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:58:12 -0500 Subject: Cowboy Lingo? In-Reply-To: <001601c3bb43$6ad80210$1140bc3f@D552FS31> Message-ID: I have no doubt that this poem characterizes (some?) cowboys, but it says nothing about the dialect they used beyond some (probable) lexical items--most of them shared throughout the English-speaking world. The only grammatical diagnostic I see (beyond the commonplace "ain't" and "I've rode") is "plumb," as in "plumb soured" and "gone plumb to seed." In both cases it's an intensifying adverb and is commonly used in the South Midland even today. And the "surely" in stanza 7 is the mark of the poet, not the cowboy. At 09:20 AM 12/5/2003 -0600, you wrote: >There is a difference between cowboy lingo which I would guess is by and >large a Hollywood invention and the way cowboys actually speak. > >The following is a poem by Curly Fletcher entitled The Open Book. > >You will note that cowboys are an inside group and have little use for >Hollywood. > >Having lived with and worked with a cowboy I know of what I say. > >Page Stephens > > The Open BookDigital Tradition Mirror > >The Open Book >(Curly Fletcher) > >You've been tamped full of shit about cowboys; >They are known as a romantic band-- >Bold knights of the saddle, who round up wild cattle, >And roll cigarettes with one hand. > >Now according to movie and story, >He's a sheik in a ten gallon hat. >All he knows of romance is the crotch of his pants, >What the hell do you think about that? > >So it's high time somebody debunked him; >He's so plumb full of crap, and, besides, >A bullshittin' bastard who's always half-plastered >Is no hero just 'cause he rides. > >Now I've harvested wool in Wyoming >And rawhide in New Mexico. >I've worn a bandana in Sheepshit, Montana, >And raped squaws over in Idaho. > >So me, I'm plumb soured on cowpunchers; >In fact, I ride sour long ago. >The clap ridden slats in their ten gallon hats >Ain't worth a damn that I know. > >But each range breeds its own brand of bastard >And boozefighter, bugger or bum; >Every half-assed vaquero who wears a sombrero >Is marked by the range he is from. > >Some come from the Canadian Rockies, >Some drift from the southwestern plains. >It surely beats hell, but it's easy to tell >Where each learned to tighten his reins. > >Take for instance the Panhandle hairpin, >Widely known by the moniker "Tex"; >He's a son-of-a-bitch with a bad trigger itch >And a big Bowie knife complex. > >Why at heart he's an unpaid policeman, >And he'll brag of tough spots he's been in. >But his powder is damp, and his gun hand will cramp >When he draws near a cotton gin. > >Take the clip-cock from California, >He's been christened "The Native Son." >A half-baked vaquero who has no dinero, >But no worse than the general run. > >He's a cross between a greaser and gringo, >Produced by the whore from the mine, >A renegade breed that's gone plumb to seed, >Since the gold rush of forty-nine. > >There's boosters from Oklahoma, >And bastards from Arkansas, >But they're just cotton pickers and tinhorn dice lickers >With not too much in their craw. > >There's the pistol prick out in Nebraska, >He's known as the corn sucker class. > From the cootie that crawls on his crab ridden balls >To the piles that blister his ass. > >Count the cocksman from Colorado, >Where Pike's Peak ponders and broods. >A miner and mucker, the phony cock-sucker, >And his racket is wranglin' dudes. > >He sponsors a double-rigged saddle; >His gifts are the gifts of the gab; >With a rope made of grass and teeth in his ass, >The best he can get is the tab. > >Take the "never sweat" from Nevada, >He's known as the "Son of the Sage." >A tinhorn card hustler and discard cunt rustler, >A throw back to some ancient age. > >He sponsors a center-fire saddle, >And his brains have a chronic limp. >Just a contrary fart and a cow thief at heart, >And actually just a lunch bucket pimp. > >Now we can't overlook Arizona; >He's a son of the old Sacatone. >An ornery critter and a famous bullshitter, >About the sorriest seed ever sown. > >He's bothered by Mexican heartburn >With protruding piles and gut; >A red hot tamale is right down his alley, >'Tis a diet his ass hole can't cut. > >There's that whistle-prick out there in Utah; >He was sired by old Brigham Young, >The sap sucking swizzler and cunt cheating chiseler, >Of the barrel he's only the bung. > >Often called the crying Jack Mormon, >His penchant is guzzling booze. >He's got a round ass and can't ride nor lass', >And he'd give a sad jackass the blues. > >There's a flute blower out in Dakota, >Just a liar, and, what's more, >A psalm singing sooner, a guitar picking crooner >And as worthless as tits on a boar. > >His tongue is diseased with diarrhea, >The half-breed gut eating tramp. >He knows more of plows than he savies of cows, >And was born with his ass in a cramp. > >That greaser from down in Chihuahua, >He claims he's a cowpuncher, too. >He curses the gringo in that Mexican lingo, >But that's about all he can do. > >He sponsors a rawhide riata, >And he straddles a silver trimmed rig; >Just a counterfeit chump, the result of a hump, >Twixt a Spaniard, a Yaqui, and a Jig. > >There's a herd in the Hollywood movies; >You can find them at Sunset and Gower. >And brother to brother they bullshit each other, >And just bellyache by the hour. > >'Course they're just a mixed bunch of bastards >Of that there is damn little doubt. >And each sorry hand wears the mark of the brand >Of the country that had him run out. > >All in all, they're considered half-witted >And the curse of the wide open west. >Whether Canada twister or Oregon mister, >They're just sons of bitches at best. > >No, there isn't much difference in cowboys, >Whether hemorrhoid, stool or hard turd; >Spring, summer, and fall, I've rode with them all >And maintain they're a plumb sorry herd. > >Now I might be a gullible gunsel, >But at that, why, I ain't too damn dumb; >If a she-sheep don't cross with her herder or boss, >Where in hell are them cowpunchers from? > >So now that I've opened the ledger >On cowpunchers as they be, >Some frijole chomper or half-assed bronc stomper >Will kick all the shit out of me. > >Now, just so you won't die of wonder, >Why a "Native Son" is what I am, >And what I've tried hard to say in an indirect way >Is that cowpunchers ain't worth a damn. > >As for those I've neglected to mention, >Why, it's not that I can't find the rhyme; >But between you and me, I've got work to do >And those bastards just ain't worth my time. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Chris Dacolias" >To: >Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 3:54 AM >Subject: Cowboy Lingo? > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail >header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Chris Dacolias > > Subject: Cowboy Lingo? > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >----- > > > > My question regards a dialect spoken in the west after > > the civil war and before the turn of the century in > > the American west. Some might call this a version of > > "cowboy language". This dialect was consistently used > > during the recent film "Open Range" a western set in > > 1888 starring Kevin Costner. In an interview, Costner > > referred to the dialect as "Victorian language". I > > didn't know quite what he meant. > > > > An example of the dialect follows: > > "We got a warrant sworn for attempted murder for them > > that tried to kill the boy who's laying over there at > > the Doc's, trying to stay alive. Swore out another one > > for them that murdered the big fella you had in your > > cell. Only ours ain't writ by no tin star, bought and > > paid for, Marshall. It's writ by us, and we aim to > > enforce it." > > > > "for them that tried to kill the boy" really stands > > out as a great example of the grammar of this dialect. > > It's not merely poor grammar, there's a style and > > consistency to it. > > > > Can anyone help me identify what characteristics unite > > this dialect, or where I can find out more information > > about it? > > > > Thank you very much. > > Konrad O"Milor > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now > > http://companion.yahoo.com/ From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Dec 5 17:09:48 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:09:48 -0500 Subject: Cowboy Lingo? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031205104717.00a860a0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Owen Ulph's book, /The Fiddleback/, is a good resource in this connection. An ex-academic, Ulph quit teaching to take up ranching in Nevada many years ago, and has paid particular attention to cowboy language & culture. A. Murie A. Murie Nomless in Northern NY sagehen at westelcom.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 18:16:13 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:16:13 -0500 Subject: the Freedom Fricative In-Reply-To: <138d01c3bb37$6d7ab6e0$84fbab0a@DJJ3J631> Message-ID: At 8:55 AM -0500 12/5/03, David Bowie wrote: >From: Laurence Horn >: At 8:55 AM -0500 12/4/03, Steve Boatti wrote: >:: In a message dated 12/3/03 11:06:27 PM, Bapopik at aol.com writes: > >::: (GOOGLE) >::: http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food/index.ssf?DEF_ID=1895 >::: gianduja >::: [zhahn-DOO-yah] > >:: The Italian pronunciation of "gianduja" is "jahn-DOO-yah," not >:: "zhahn-DOO-yah." > >: Hyperforeignism (the Ta"ZH" Majal/Bei"ZH"ing Syndrome) strikes again! >: That old Freedom Fricative just keeps popping up, doesn't it? > >I don't know if this is necessarily hyperforeignism--some of us simply have >rampant [Z]s where others might have [dZ]s. > Well, the term "hyperforeignism", admittedly not self-explanatory, is motivated by the idea that such speakers are generalizing the fact that French words/names have the [Z] fricative to the practice of spreading this [Z] to other foreign names, even when the language in question has no [Z]. So the use of [Z] in Beijing, Taj Mahal, Gianduja, etc., is not attributable to a fact about either English or of Mandarin/Hindi(?)/Italian, but ultimately to a fact about French (and about English speakers' treatment of French as the foreign language par excellence and/or the prestige foreign language). larry From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Dec 5 18:26:07 2003 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:26:07 -0500 Subject: the Freedom Fricative In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yeah, imagine how irate us Hunkeys get when Kodaly and even Bartok get syllable-final stress under this rule. By the way, not one yet seems to have commented on the young women who teaches "Overnmitt" (an Arby's ad character) to say 'au jus'. Although she does not use a front-rounded vowel, she does not use the final /s/ (which Ovenmitt does), and that appears to be the point of her repetitions. Interestingly, however, the voice over which follows this linguistic lesson still notes that we should try this stuff "with au jus." Phonology first; lexicon next appears to be the rule. dInIs >At 8:55 AM -0500 12/5/03, David Bowie wrote: >>From: Laurence Horn >>: At 8:55 AM -0500 12/4/03, Steve Boatti wrote: >>:: In a message dated 12/3/03 11:06:27 PM, Bapopik at aol.com writes: >> >>::: (GOOGLE) >>::: http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food/index.ssf?DEF_ID=1895 >>::: gianduja >>::: [zhahn-DOO-yah] >> >>:: The Italian pronunciation of "gianduja" is "jahn-DOO-yah," not >>:: "zhahn-DOO-yah." >> >>: Hyperforeignism (the Ta"ZH" Majal/Bei"ZH"ing Syndrome) strikes again! >>: That old Freedom Fricative just keeps popping up, doesn't it? >> >>I don't know if this is necessarily hyperforeignism--some of us simply have >>rampant [Z]s where others might have [dZ]s. >> >Well, the term "hyperforeignism", admittedly not self-explanatory, is >motivated by the idea that such speakers are generalizing the fact >that French words/names have the [Z] fricative to the practice of >spreading this [Z] to other foreign names, even when the language in >question has no [Z]. So the use of [Z] in Beijing, Taj Mahal, >Gianduja, etc., is not attributable to a fact about either English or >of Mandarin/Hindi(?)/Italian, but ultimately to a fact about French >(and about English speakers' treatment of French as the foreign >language par excellence and/or the prestige foreign language). > >larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 18:34:16 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:34:16 -0500 Subject: the Freedom Fricative In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:26 PM -0500 12/5/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Yeah, imagine how irate us Hunkeys get when Kodaly and even Bartok >get syllable-final stress under this rule. > >By the way, not one yet seems to have commented on the young women >who teaches "Overnmitt" (an Arby's ad character) to say 'au jus'. >Although she does not use a front-rounded vowel, she does not use the >final /s/ (which Ovenmitt does), and that appears to be the point of >her repetitions. > >Interestingly, however, the voice over which follows this linguistic >lesson still notes that we should try this stuff "with au jus." > >Phonology first; lexicon next appears to be the rule. > >dInIs And let's not forget the wonderful practice of out-Frenching the French, as in the rendering of "coup de gr?ce" as "KOO D'GRAH" instead of "KOO D'GRAHS". larry From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Dec 5 19:06:15 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 14:06:15 -0500 Subject: the Freedom Fricative In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >And let's not forget the wonderful practice of out-Frenching the >French, as in the rendering of "coup de gr?ce" as "KOO D'GRAH" >instead of "KOO D'GRAHS". > >larry ~~~~~~~ and verdigris........(possibly under the misapprehension that the last syllable refers to grey, not Greece). A.Murie From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Dec 5 23:16:07 2003 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 17:16:07 -0600 Subject: Cowboy Lingo? Message-ID: There are a lot of terms Curly's poem which are idiosyncratic to cowboys at least to my knowledge. A few: learned to tighten his reins center-fire saddle gunsel (in the sense of a person who can't find his saddle with both hands not a queer or person who handles a gun) silver trimmed rig There are others but I don't have the time to pick them out. In general, however, it is the inside jokes about cowboys which distinguish it. I do not know about grammar but I ain't a grammarian. As to the mark of the poet as opposed to the cowboy. One thing cowboys are noted for is their poetry. Perhaps this is due to the loneliness of ranch life -- I can vouch for this since I spent a couple of years living on a small ranch a few miles outside Noplace, Arkansas which is about ten miles outside Plumb Lost -- but for many many years The Western Horseman has published poetry and today there are many cowboy poetry get togethers in different areas of the US. The best known cowboy poet these days is Baxter Black but in earlier days there were Curly, of course, Haywire Mac McClintock, Badger Clark, D.J. O'Malley, Romaine Loudermilk and many others including if you want to Owen Wister the author of The Virginian who wrote 10,000 Cattle Straying. By the way Curly Fletcher's best known poem/song is The Strawberry Roan which he himself parodied as The Castration of The Strawberry Roan so according to legend he could do it before somebody else did. The difference between the two versions can be summarized in comparing the first four lines of each: I was standing around just a spending my time. Nothing else to spend not even a dime. When a fellow comes up and he says I suppose That you're a bronk rider by the looks of your clothes. as opposed to: I was hanging around in a house of ill fame. Laid up with a twist of a hustling dame When a hop headed pig with his nose full of coke Beat me out of my whore and left me stone broke. A story about The Open Book which I heard in the deep dark past was that Curly was sitting at a bar with Slim Pickens and mentioned the fact that one time he had written the poem but had long since lost any copy of it. Slim then said not to worry because he had memorized it and proceeded to recite it. I cannot vouch for the veracity of either of these stories but they make for good telling which is what cowboys love to do since they have so much time on their hands. Page Stephens PS. When I got out to Ohio where they all ride English I was puzzled about how they rode horses until I learned that: walk = walk trot = jog canter = lope and gallop = gallop ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beverly Flanigan" To: Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:58 AM Subject: Re: Cowboy Lingo? > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: Cowboy Lingo? > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > I have no doubt that this poem characterizes (some?) cowboys, but it says > nothing about the dialect they used beyond some (probable) lexical > items--most of them shared throughout the English-speaking world. The only > grammatical diagnostic I see (beyond the commonplace "ain't" and "I've > rode") is "plumb," as in "plumb soured" and "gone plumb to seed." In both > cases it's an intensifying adverb and is commonly used in the South Midland > even today. And the "surely" in stanza 7 is the mark of the poet, not the > cowboy. > From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Dec 5 22:31:36 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 17:31:36 -0500 Subject: Cowboy Lingo? In-Reply-To: <004101c3bb85$cc14b720$7428bc3f@D552FS31> Message-ID: There is also "Cowboy Lingo" by Ramon F. Adams. First published 1936. Reprinted 2000 by Houghton Mifflin, ISBN 0-618-08349-9. It's a strictly lexical reference, but good coverage of that aspect of cowboy speech. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Fri Dec 5 22:37:17 2003 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 17:37:17 -0500 Subject: the Freedom Fricative In-Reply-To: <200312051828.AOG87368@mirapointmr2.wayne.edu> Message-ID: At 01:26 PM 12/5/2003, you wrote: >Yeah, imagine how irate us Hunkeys get when Kodaly and even Bartok >get syllable-final stress under this rule. Many years ago Frank Anshen (are you on this list, Frank?) referred to this tendency as the 'Kabool Rule' (this was long before we learned the 'correct' way to pronounce 'Kabul', not to mention Qatar. Geoff From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 6 13:32:12 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 08:32:12 -0500 Subject: Clements & Popik in N.Y. Times In-Reply-To: <7B67B00F.60654D84.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Tomorrow's William Safire "On Language" column in the New York Times Magazine treats the term "Charley Horse." Sam Clements and Barry Popik are mentioned, Sam for finding an Aug. 29, 1886 usage in the Atlanta Constitution and Barry for finding a usage in Sporting Life a month later. Congratulations to Sam and Barry. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Dec 6 14:21:13 2003 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 09:21:13 -0500 Subject: the kaBOOL rule In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031205173559.02642228@mail.wayne.edu> Message-ID: I think there are two things at work in the Kabul pronunciation. One is the Frenchification (stress placement, Frank's 'kaBOOL' rule) and the other appears to be the generally held belief that only English has a schwa (or such reduction as would lead to syllabic /l/, etc...). They are working arm-in-arm here of course. If I was as clever as Frank, I would come up with a dandy name for a no-schwa rule. dInIs PS: I have no doubt that the no-schwa rule is based in hours and hours spent in some foreign languages classes learning those languages without a schwa or at least hearing them or words from them spoke just so. I hvae observed Spanish classes whin which an enormous amount of time (better spent learning some more words in my opinion) has been spent drilling just the lexical item 'casa' so that the second vowel is produced with less schwa-like realization. >At 01:26 PM 12/5/2003, you wrote: >>Yeah, imagine how irate us Hunkeys get when Kodaly and even Bartok >>get syllable-final stress under this rule. > >Many years ago Frank Anshen (are you on this list, Frank?) referred to this >tendency as the 'Kabool Rule' (this was long before we learned the >'correct' way to pronounce 'Kabul', not to mention Qatar. > >Geoff From mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Sat Dec 6 15:58:18 2003 From: mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 10:58:18 -0500 Subject: chocolate In-Reply-To: <200312060503.hB653pk8014551@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: From: David Bowie Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. >>> Ah ha! I JUST ended a letter to a friend with what I remembered of these Laws, with the apology "(attribution mislaid)". Whence come they? -- Mark A. Mandel From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM Sat Dec 6 16:44:08 2003 From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 00:44:08 +0800 Subject: Clements & Popik in N.Y. Times In-Reply-To: <200312061332.hB6DWEIe016413@zero.taolodge.com> Message-ID: On Dec 6, 2003 at 08:32 -0500 Fred Shapiro transmitted the following... FS => Congratulations to Sam and Barry. Indeed, congrats Sam and Barry. You guys work hard. True. I'm among those who appreciate it. And thanks, Fred, for letting us know. Russ McClay Taipei From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 6 16:45:24 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 11:45:24 -0500 Subject: "Woobie" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A thread on another listserv has pointed out a word that is probably unrecorded in dictionaries: "woobie," meaning a favorite toy of a human being or animal. The earliest evidence I have found is that it is used in the 1983 film Mr. Mom. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 6 16:54:02 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 11:54:02 -0500 Subject: More on "Woobie" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I should add that there are more than 7000 hits on Google for "woobie." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From douglas at NB.NET Sat Dec 6 23:28:25 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:28:25 -0500 Subject: Shillaber (1883) Message-ID: This is the synonym -- and likely the ancestral form -- of "shill" ("tout"/"booster"/"swindler's accomplice"). From Ancestry.com: about 30 years earlier than in my poor-man's OED: with no obvious interval change in sense: "Indiana Weekly Messenger" [Indiana PA], 14 March 1883: p. 1, col. 5: "Mock Auctions" (attributed to the "Chicago Times"): <> There are about sixteen instances of "shillaber" in this article. The shillaber here is the (secret) accomplice of an auctioneer/swindler pushing bogus gold/silver watches. The shillaber pretends to be another innocent; he admires and bids on and "buys" the misrepresented merchandise in order to cheat the "guys" (i.e., the suckers or victims). Usually no derivation is proposed for "shillaber". I have not found this word spelled otherwise (except for one probable typo. with "shallaber"); in particular, it apparently was NOT sometimes "shillibeer" to suggest a connection with the famous London omnibus entrepreneur. The early date is interesting. In 1883 the Boston humorist Benjamin P. Shillaber was still alive and well-known (although retired). [He apparently corresponded with P. T. Barnum in 1868, BTW.] OTOH, Lydia Shillaber's cookbook apparently had not yet appeared. Likely "shillaber" is derived from this surname, but perhaps from some forgotten Shillaber (maybe a swindler?). This word came up on Dave Wilton's BBS recently. -- Doug Wilson From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Dec 7 01:35:29 2003 From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 17:35:29 -0800 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <200312030324.hB33OYKL007632@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Too bad if it IS taking off! My 5th grade teacher, Miss Smith, for whom I am now eternally grateful, explained that the correct answer to "Where are you at?" or "Where are you going to?" was "between the a and the t, or the t and the o," which ever applied. It was a great phrase to use among ourselves, but I have grown increasingly careful about using it now . . . when even distinguished folk make the errors. Miss Smith had two goals in life -- to make her Texas students sound less like they came from Texas (no grammatical errors like those above, no pitcher frames, no liberries where we went to for the books, and never Febuerry or Massatusetts.) Don't know where she was from, but she was at least adamant about these. Her second goal was to produce a generation or two of writers, and here I think that she succeeded! Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Sun Dec 7 05:54:47 2003 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 21:54:47 -0800 Subject: Clements & Popik in N.Y. Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Congratulations Sam and Barry ! Even more reason to read the NY Times tomorrow cheers ! Vida. vidamorkunas at telus.net -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Fred Shapiro Sent: December 6, 2003 5:32 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Clements & Popik in N.Y. Times Tomorrow's William Safire "On Language" column in the New York Times Magazine treats the term "Charley Horse." Sam Clements and Barry Popik are mentioned, Sam for finding an Aug. 29, 1886 usage in the Atlanta Constitution and Barry for finding a usage in Sporting Life a month later. Congratulations to Sam and Barry. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 7 07:57:02 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 02:57:02 EST Subject: Badwill (and Goodwill); Bash-Wagon Message-ID: BADWILL (AND GOODWILL) A NEW YORK POST columnist wrote about "Hillary's Bad Will Tour." The response is in Sunday's letters (www.nypost.com). "Goodwill" is one of OED's oldest words. OED does not have "badwill." GOODWILL--2,130,000 Google hits GOOD WILL--1,460,000 Google hits (many for the movie GOOD WILL HUNTING) BADWILL--3,820 Google hits BAD WILL--58,900 Google hits GOODWILL--210,000 Google Groups hits GOOD WILL--352,000 Google Groups hits (again, there are movie hits) BADWILL--1,250 Google Groups hits BAD WILL--40, 500 Google Groups hits One Google hit reads "Bad will vs. Goodwill." And just checking... PEACE ON EARTH--288,000 Google hits WAR ON EARTH--13,600 Google hits ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BASH-WAGON A story in the Sunday NEW YORK POST sports section mentions the football NY Giants "bash-wagon." This is not a particularly clever play on "bandwagon" (something to jump on during good times), but there are some hits. BASHWAGON--46 Google hits BASHWAGON--107 Google Groups hits BASH WAGON--70 Google hits BASH WAGON--90 Google Groups hits From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 7 11:02:59 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 06:02:59 EST Subject: Gkebis, Chowkee, and more from Harry Franck (1910++) Message-ID: The New York Public Library was closed on Saturday because of the snow. I read almost all of the Harry Franck travel books in the NYU Bobst Library. Two books--ZONE POLICEMAN 88 and VAGABONDING DOWN THE ANDES--were missing. Franck started with A VAGABOND JOURNEY AROUND THE WORLD (1910), but his later books were better. His WEST INDIES (1920) book (posted here) was one of his best. Franck seems to be a western hemisphere guy. Did he even visit Africa? Overall--not as helpful as I'd hoped. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- A VAGABOND JOURNEY AROUND THE WORLD by Harry A. Franck New York: The Century Co. 1910 Pg. 121: A wonderful invention is this _gkebis_ or Arab bread. (Probably "Khoubz Araby." Neither is in OED--ed.) Pg. 417: "Sure, we pay for our chow. Where's the chowkee? Tell him to get busy." ("Chowkee" is used to mean someone who prepares chow. I've been looking, unsuccessfully, for "Chowhound"--ed.) Pg. 485: Life on the beach of Yokohama might have grown monotonous in the days that followed but for the necessity of an incessant scramble for rice and fishes. Out beyond the park were a score of native shops where a Gargantuan feast of rice and stewed _niku_--meat of uncertain antecedents--sold for a song. There were times, of course, when we had not even a song between us; but in the Chinese quarters neared the harbor, queued shopkeepers offered an armful of Oriental fruits and the thin strips of roasted pork popularly known as "rat-tails" for half a vocal effort. Or, failing this, there were the vendors (Pg. 486--ed.) of _soba_, who appeared with their push-carts as dusk fell, demanding only two sen for a bowl of this Japanese macaroni swimming in greasy water, and the use of a badly-worn pair of chopsticks. (OED has 1896, then 1928 for "soba"--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- TRAMPING THROUGH MEXICO, GUATEMALA AND HONDURAS by Harry A. Franck New York: D. Appleton-Century Company 1916 Pg. 14: A cheerful but slatternly Indian woman set before me a thin soup containing a piece of squash and a square of boileed beef, and eight hot corn tortillas of the size and shape of our pancakes, or _gkebis_. the Arab bread, which it outdid in toughness and total absence of taste. Pg. 25: ...onions, flat slabs orf brown, muddy-looking soap, rice, every species of _frijole_, or bean, shelled corn for tortillas, tomatoes--_tomate coloradito_, though many were tiny and green as if also prematurely gathered--peppers red and green, green-corn with most of the kernels blue, lettuce, radishes, cucumbers, carrots, cabbages, melons of every size except large,... Pg. 41: The woman set before me a bowl of "sopita," with tortillas, white cheese, and boiled whole peppers. Pg. 157: There was _carne de carnero_, tortillas and water, all for five cents. Pg. 221: To the _enchiladas_, large tortillas red with pepper-sauce and generously filled with onions, and the smaller tortillas covered with scraps of meat and boiled egg which we bought of the old women and boys that flocked about the train, he added a liter of pulque. Pg. 350: ...a stale slab of _pan dulce_, a cross between poor bread and (Pg. 351--ed.) worse cake. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- WORKING NORTH FROM PATAGONIA by Harry A. Franck New York: The Century Company 1922 One of his best books. It covers South America--a favorite topic. Pg. 26: "B. A." still retains, however, a few of those features which visiting Americans below the Rio Grande are wont in their exasperation to dub "Spig." Pg. 45: Here the waiters, like the _dormitorio_ porters, are white, with king's-bed-chamber manners; and the six course meals are moderate in price and usually excellent--except the dessert, the ubiquitous, unfailing, never-varying _dulce de membrillo_, a stone-hard quince jelly which brings to a sad end virtually every public repast in the Argentine. (OED has 1920 for "membrillo"--ed.) Pg. 59: Tucuman retains none of the primitive methods by which cane is turned into brown lumps of _panela_ or _chancaca_ on the little plantations scattered through the Andes. Pg. 84 (Chile): Street after street is crowded with dingy little hole-in-the-wall merchants; street stands abound in which are sold the favorite dishes of the _gente de medio pelo_, the ragged masses,--_mote molido_ (boiled and mashed ripe corn); _mote con huesillos_ (the same with scraps of bones and meat thrown in), and the thick, greasy soup known as _cazuela_. Pg. 274: ...both in the hope that those who might already have heard one number would be attracted by the other two and because Brazilians will not stand for _sopa requentada_ (reheated soup), as they call a repetition of program. Pg. 293: This _carne verde_ ("green" meat), having just been killed and so called to distinguish it from _xarque_ or _carne secca_, the salted or dun-dried variety familiar in the rural districts, is cooked in several different ways, all of which leave it hopeless to live on. Pg. 352: Here (Amazon--ed.) one may have a _cocoa molle gelado_, in other words, iced milk of green coconut, than which there is no better way of quenching tropical thirst. (...) He will not work again until he must have more _cachaza_ and _farinha_. Pg. 356: I wandered up the dingy back stairs to the _gallhinheiro_ (chicken roost), as (Pg. 357--ed.) "nigger heaven" is called in Bazil, and found that the negro at the door was acepting money in lieu of tickets. Pg. 390: The settlers at the "Reef" were almost entirely Portuguese merchants, whom the aristocrats of the proud residential town of Olinda called "mascates"--peddlers or hawkers. Pg. 403: If it is simply cooked, fermented, and dried, the result is _farinha secca_, white, bran-like mandioca flour; a more elaborate process, including grating under water, gives the yellow _farinha d'agoa_, which seems to be the favorite. A coarser form of the same product is called _farofa_, and during the cooking there are precipitated the gum-like grains we call tapioca. _Taquira_, a species of alcohol, is also produced from mandioca. _Farinha_ and _farofa_ are to the Brazilians what potatoes are to the Irish. (OED has two "farofa" hits, but no entry. There are 2,620 Google hits and 780 Google Groups hits for "farofa"--ed.) Pg. 585: ...some are the private and individual diggings of "pork-knockers." Lone prospectors, aminly West Indian negroes who by law may wash for gold even on the concessions of others are so called because, often setting out with insufficient supplies, they soon come knocking at doors and asking for something to eat--little pork of anything." Even the verb, to "go pork-knocking," has become an accepted one in the popular language of Dutch and British Guiana. Pg. 631: Eggs were three or for five cents; a large corn biscuit, or _pan de arepa_, was one cent; "wheat bread" as a tiny, dry ring of baked flour of the size and shape of a bracelet was called, cost something more than that; native cheese, _papelon_, even milk, though probably from goats and certainly boi led, could be had by persons of wealth. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- THE FRINGE OF THE MOSLEM WORLD By Harry A. Franck New York: The Century Co. 1928 Pg. 150: Here a den where men are baking ghebis, the huge pancake-like bread of Syria that lies stacked up in sheets everywhere in the food markets. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Dec 7 13:35:39 2003 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 08:35:39 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Does it say "She Made Us Ashamed of Who We Were" on Ms. Smith's headstone? dInIs >Too bad if it IS taking off! My 5th grade teacher, Miss Smith, for whom I >am now eternally grateful, explained that the correct answer to "Where are >you at?" or "Where are you going to?" was "between the a and the t, or the >t and the o," which ever applied. It was a great phrase to use among >ourselves, but I have grown increasingly careful about using it now . . . >when even distinguished folk make the errors. > >Miss Smith had two goals in life -- to make her Texas students sound less >like they came from Texas (no grammatical errors like those above, no >pitcher frames, no liberries where we went to for the books, and never >Febuerry or Massatusetts.) Don't know where she was from, but she was at >least adamant about these. Her second goal was to produce a generation or >two of writers, and here I think that she succeeded! > >Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 7 16:20:56 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 11:20:56 -0500 Subject: Underwater Basket Weaving(1958) Message-ID: .I'm sure this is a US phrase referring to a college course that is rediculously easy, one that NO ONE could possibly flunk, not even the jocks. I couldn't find a cite for it anywhere(OED, our archives, Christine Ammer, Ayto, alt.useage.english, etc.) The earliest ancesty.com cite was from the Appleton Post Crescent, May 14, 1958: p. ?, col. 6-7. From the 'Potomac Fever' column written by Fletcher Knebel--- <> Question: was there actually such a course at a university at that time? Or was this just a useage of a metaphor that was known and used earlier? I'm certain that Fred or Barry or others who have access to NYTimes, Wash. Post, L.A. Times will find an earlier cite. Sam Clements From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sun Dec 7 17:13:23 2003 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:13:23 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What on earth does this "great phrase" mean? And where are the "errors"? I know almost no one who says "FebRuary either. Since good writing has almost nothing to do with how one speaks, it's too bad you feel proud of the first aspect of your linguistic life and ashamed of the second. I too had a teacher who taught us how to analyze Latin-based words (a useful tool I wish my grad students had), do library research and write decent papers (another skill often lacking), and appreciate good literature. But when she tore down a sign at a bake sale during a basketball game because it said "Boughten Cookies," she shamed us and our origins. It was years later, of course, that I learned 'boughten' is a common Northern participial adjective and felt vindicated. Another member of the erring "distinguished folk": Beverly Olson Flanigan Associate Professor of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 At 05:35 PM 12/6/2003 -0800, you wrote: >Too bad if it IS taking off! My 5th grade teacher, Miss Smith, for whom I >am now eternally grateful, explained that the correct answer to "Where are >you at?" or "Where are you going to?" was "between the a and the t, or the >t and the o," which ever applied. It was a great phrase to use among >ourselves, but I have grown increasingly careful about using it now . . . >when even distinguished folk make the errors. > >Miss Smith had two goals in life -- to make her Texas students sound less >like they came from Texas (no grammatical errors like those above, no >pitcher frames, no liberries where we went to for the books, and never >Febuerry or Massatusetts.) Don't know where she was from, but she was at >least adamant about these. Her second goal was to produce a generation or >two of writers, and here I think that she succeeded! > >Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg From write at SCN.ORG Sun Dec 7 17:35:25 2003 From: write at SCN.ORG (Jan Kammert) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 09:35:25 -0800 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031207115657.00ad2f88@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: > I too had a teacher who taught us how to analyze Latin-based words (a > useful tool I wish my grad students had), do library research and write > decent papers (another skill often lacking), and appreciate good > literature. But when she tore down a sign at a bake sale during a > basketball game because it said "Boughten Cookies," she shamed us and our > origins. It was years later, of course, that I learned 'boughten' is a > common Northern participial adjective and felt vindicated. > I teach 8th grade. This thread makes me feel as if I should never correct my students writing. No doubt, I will think something is wrong that really isn't, or is so common that I should just ignore it. Where is there help for teachers who were never trained about language themselves? Jan From douglas at NB.NET Sun Dec 7 17:39:57 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:39:57 -0500 Subject: Underwater Basket Weaving(1958) In-Reply-To: <001301c3bcde$197d27a0$7e22a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: >.I'm sure this is a US phrase referring to a college course that is >rediculously easy, one that NO ONE could possibly flunk, not even the jocks. I think the essential quality of the course typified by "basket weaving" is lack of intellectual demand: if you can't learn read or to do arithmetic, perhaps you can still learn to weave baskets (or to shoot them). Weaving is an activity which can be performed by small children, mentally deficient persons, illiterate barbarians, etc. (of course it is performed by great savants also, and of course there are subtleties and complexities to it in reality). > <the times by eliminating its popular course in underwater basket weaving.>> > >Question: was there actually such a course at a university at that time? >Or was this just a useage of a metaphor that was known and used earlier? I've heard "basket weaving" (unmodified) as an "undemanding course archetype" since the 1960's myself. There are -- I assume -- many real college courses in basket weaving (as an art or craft). Augmented expressions such as "underwater basket-weaving", "Serbo-Croatian basket-weaving", etc. make the humor transparent, with the longer names also denoting "specialized" forms of basket-weaving with the implication that the 'jock' or other (academically) incompetent (or lazy) student can make a whole academic career out of such 'specializations'. I believe there is also the understanding that an expertise in such an activity would be worthless in the employment market after graduation. There are doubtless real courses along the line of "Navajo basket weaving". I seriously doubt that there is a real field of underwater weaving, however. -- Doug Wilson From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Sun Dec 7 17:42:31 2003 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti Kurtz) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 11:42:31 -0600 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <200312071235.68e3fd364d73ac@rly-nc05.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: write at SCN.ORG wrote: >I teach 8th grade. This thread makes me feel as if I should never correct >my students writing. > Okay, I'm not a linguist per se, but an English prof, but my feelings are that a9 it's okay to show students what's expected in "Standard written English" as long as we don't disparage their own dialects in the process. Students can learn to style shift very readily-- the problem, I think, that Dennis and the others are focusing on is the view that one dialect (the mythical standard) is somehow "better" than the others. Plus speech and writing are very different-- we speak (as a rule) much more informally than we write. And a lot of writing has to do with audience. What are the students writing to who? (or should that be whom?) Anyhow, I think as a teacher, it's important to teach the conventions of written standard English, but to do so in a way that doesn't make students ashamed of the way they talk. Students should also realize that there may be a time or place in writing for dialect and casual usage-- such as e mails, letters to friends, fiction, etc. The key I think is in not labeling variants as "bad English" but as variants which may not be accepted by the academic community. Okay, that's my 2 cents. Patti Kurtz English Department Minot State University Minot, ND > No doubt, I will think something is wrong that >really isn't, or is so common that I should just ignore it. Where is >there help for teachers who were never trained about language themselves? >Jan > > -- If you write nothing, nothing is what you end up with! Joseph Bruchac From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sun Dec 7 17:51:18 2003 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 11:51:18 -0600 Subject: Underwater Basket Weaving(1958) In-Reply-To: <200312071740.hB7HeRG23602@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > There are doubtless real courses along the line of "Navajo basket > weaving". I seriously doubt that there is a real field of underwater > weaving, however. On a related note, the Boy Scouts offer (or offered, in the 1970s) a merit badge in basket weaving. It was, needless to say, a very easy one; I believe my entire troop picked it up in the course of a single week at camp. Jim Parish From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Dec 7 18:00:37 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 13:00:37 -0500 Subject: Underwater Basket Weaving(1958) In-Reply-To: <3FD31436.29216.1DC0E3D@localhost> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Jim Parish > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 12:51 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Underwater Basket Weaving(1958) > > > Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > There are doubtless real courses along the line of "Navajo basket > > weaving". I seriously doubt that there is a real field of underwater > > weaving, however. > > On a related note, the Boy Scouts offer (or offered, in the 1970s) a > merit badge in basket weaving. It was, needless to say, a very easy > one; I believe my entire troop picked it up in the course of a single week > at camp. Indeed, I believe the university sense (at least in every instance I've heard it), carries the connotation of a camp activity, likening matriculating with attending summer camp. From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sun Dec 7 18:09:10 2003 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 13:09:10 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: But you're confusing writing with speaking again. I agree that a certain "standard" should be taught in writing, if only to give kids an equal chance in higher education and the job market. This means teaching standard past and participial forms of verbs, subject-verb agreement, complete but not run-on sentence construction, and, most importantly, coherent and cohesive text building. (It doesn't include harping on 'who' vs. 'whom', not ending a sentence with a preposition, and avoiding "where at" or "boughten.") Punctuation might also be nice in writing, but since one doesn't hear it (except in pausing) in speech, marking of possessives, as in "my students' writing," might also go the way of the dodo bird (since it is anyway). But if you teach writing style as a separate and useful "code" in a nice and non-demeaning way, some of its "rules" might start to permeate your students' speech as well. Walt Wolfram distinguishes between Standard Formal Written and Standard Colloquial Written English (I think I have his terms right, away from my source). The first is rarely used; the second is a nice bridge to Colloquial Spoken English (note that I didn't say Nonstandard Spoken English, which is a demeaning label). Students can, and will, learn how to shift between these styles, if you give them half a chance! You might want to get a copy of Wolfram and Schilling-Estes, _American English: ..._ (again, I don't have the book here, but ask any bookstore to look it up). The early chapters are especially good on prescriptive rules vs. ordinary colloquial usage. Beverly At 09:35 AM 12/7/2003 -0800, you wrote: > > I too had a teacher who taught us how to analyze Latin-based words (a > > useful tool I wish my grad students had), do library research and write > > decent papers (another skill often lacking), and appreciate good > > literature. But when she tore down a sign at a bake sale during a > > basketball game because it said "Boughten Cookies," she shamed us and our > > origins. It was years later, of course, that I learned 'boughten' is a > > common Northern participial adjective and felt vindicated. > > >I teach 8th grade. This thread makes me feel as if I should never correct >my students writing. No doubt, I will think something is wrong that >really isn't, or is so common that I should just ignore it. Where is >there help for teachers who were never trained about language themselves? >Jan From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM Sun Dec 7 18:19:09 2003 From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 02:19:09 +0800 Subject: Underwater Basket Weaving(1958) In-Reply-To: <200312071620.hB7GKGBb003921@zero.taolodge.com> Message-ID: FWIW: Subject: Re: "Underwater basket weaving Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:42:55 -0400 (EDT) From: MSWF at aol.com To: davidc at iei.net Hi, I first heard the term underwater basket weaving when I was in college (58-62-Indiana State) as a reference to easy classes that football players and other athletes would take just to get credits and remain eligible to play. That may not be the origin but it is my first memory of the term. Since starting to make baskets, I have thought it ironic that people who coined the term did not understand the complexity of some weaving and the history of the craft. Hope this helps, Mary Fulton, Portland, OR. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.angelfire.com/art/weaverswords/WeaversWordsV1I27.txt SC => .I'm sure this is a US phrase referring to a college course that is SC => rediculously easy, one that NO ONE could possibly flunk, not even the jocks. From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sun Dec 7 18:12:57 2003 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 13:12:57 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <3FD36687.3000708@netscape.net> Message-ID: I couldn't (and didn't) say it better myself, Patti! Ah, a new breed of English teachers, and coming out of my beloved Northland! At 11:42 AM 12/7/2003 -0600, you wrote: >write at SCN.ORG wrote: > >>I teach 8th grade. This thread makes me feel as if I should never correct >>my students writing. >Okay, I'm not a linguist per se, but an English prof, but my feelings >are that a9 it's okay to show students what's expected in "Standard >written English" as long as we don't disparage their own dialects in the >process. Students can learn to style shift very readily-- the problem, >I think, that Dennis and the others are focusing on is the view that one >dialect (the mythical standard) is somehow "better" than the others. >Plus speech and writing are very different-- we speak (as a rule) much >more informally than we write. And a lot of writing has to do with >audience. What are the students writing to who? (or should that be >whom?) Anyhow, I think as a teacher, it's important to teach the >conventions of written standard English, but to do so in a way that >doesn't make students ashamed of the way they talk. Students should >also realize that there may be a time or place in writing for dialect >and casual usage-- such as e mails, letters to friends, fiction, etc. >The key I think is in not labeling variants as "bad English" but as >variants which may not be accepted by the academic community. > >Okay, that's my 2 cents. > >Patti Kurtz >English Department >Minot State University >Minot, ND > >>No doubt, I will think something is wrong that >>really isn't, or is so common that I should just ignore it. Where is >>there help for teachers who were never trained about language themselves? >>Jan >> > >-- > >If you write nothing, nothing is what you end up with! > > > >Joseph Bruchac From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Dec 7 18:36:00 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 13:36:00 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20"at"=20at=20the=20e?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?nd=20of=20a=20where=20phrase?= Message-ID: In a message dated 12/6/03 8:35:48 PM, eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: How lucky y'all were to have Miss Smith to tell you what was right and what was wrong! But how did SHE know? > Miss Smith, for whom I > am now eternally grateful, explained that the correct answer to "Where are > you at?" or "Where are you going to?" was "between the a and the t, or the > t and the o," which ever applied.? It was a great phrase to use among > ourselves, but I have grown increasingly careful about using it now . . . > when even distinguished folk make the errors. > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 7 19:12:57 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:12:57 -0500 Subject: Clements & Popik in N.Y. Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:54 PM -0800 12/6/03, vida morkunas wrote: >Congratulations Sam and Barry ! > >Even more reason to read the NY Times tomorrow > >cheers ! > >Vida. >vidamorkunas at telus.net > When you do, note Safire's reference (the column appears on p. 30) to the latter as "The growling etymologist Barry Popik", with no further explanation. Assuming this isn't a very covert reference to some work of Barry on "growler", it strikes me as a somewhat private allusion to Barry's style, presumably motivated by the fact that Safire himself has not infrequently served as the growlee. Sam, on the other hand, is identified neutrally as "the philologist Sam Clements", sans modification. larry From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 7 19:29:49 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:29:49 -0500 Subject: Clements & Popik in N.Y. Times Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 2:12 PM Subject: Re: Clements & Popik in N.Y. Times Sam, on the other hand, is identified neutrally as "the philologist Sam Clements", sans modification. larry Hey! When Safire's lovely assistant, Kathleen Miller, wrote and asked me for a description of myself, I gave her enough info to fill up the whole column. That they decided to call me some whitebread name, er... uh..., actually, it fits. At least Barry is an 'etymologist.' (insert Rodney Dangerfield complaint here) From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Sun Dec 7 20:13:28 2003 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti Kurtz) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:13:28 -0600 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <200312071330.7643fd371c5379@rly-nc06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: flanigan at OHIO.EDU wrote: > >I couldn't (and didn't) say it better myself, Patti! Ah, a new breed of >English teachers, and coming out of my beloved Northland! > Thanks, Beverly. :-) (so where are you from? I'm a transplant myself, but love it here!) Oh, and the info on the Wolfram/Schilling-Estes book: Blackwell publishers, 1998, for anyone interested. It is a very good text on variations in American English. Patti Kurtz > >At 11:42 AM 12/7/2003 -0600, you wrote: > > >>write at SCN.ORG wrote: >> >> >> >>>I teach 8th grade. This thread makes me feel as if I should never correct >>>my students writing. >>> >>> >>Okay, I'm not a linguist per se, but an English prof, but my feelings >>are that a9 it's okay to show students what's expected in "Standard >>written English" as long as we don't disparage their own dialects in the >>process. Students can learn to style shift very readily-- the problem, >>I think, that Dennis and the others are focusing on is the view that one >>dialect (the mythical standard) is somehow "better" than the others. >>Plus speech and writing are very different-- we speak (as a rule) much >>more informally than we write. And a lot of writing has to do with >>audience. What are the students writing to who? (or should that be >>whom?) Anyhow, I think as a teacher, it's important to teach the >>conventions of written standard English, but to do so in a way that >>doesn't make students ashamed of the way they talk. Students should >>also realize that there may be a time or place in writing for dialect >>and casual usage-- such as e mails, letters to friends, fiction, etc. >>The key I think is in not labeling variants as "bad English" but as >>variants which may not be accepted by the academic community. >> >>Okay, that's my 2 cents. >> >>Patti Kurtz >>English Department >>Minot State University >>Minot, ND >> >> >> >>>No doubt, I will think something is wrong that >>>really isn't, or is so common that I should just ignore it. Where is >>>there help for teachers who were never trained about language themselves? >>>Jan >>> >>> >>> >>-- >> >>If you write nothing, nothing is what you end up with! >> >> >> >>Joseph Bruchac >> >> -- If you write nothing, nothing is what you end up with! Joseph Bruchac From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 7 20:17:57 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 15:17:57 -0500 Subject: The real Mackay(1871) Message-ID: This may or not be an antedating, but I think it's an important addition to the origins of the term. >From ancestry.com, I found a poem in the Waukesha(WI) Plaindealer, February 7, 1871: page 1(I think), col. 3. There are five stanzas. Rather than print the entire poem, suffice it to say that the final line in each stanza was "For he's no the real Sandy Mackay." The title of the poem was "THE REAL SANDY MACKAY*" At the conclusion of the poem, the starred term was explained thusly: <> This would appear to predate the RHDAS cite for the meaning of "the genuine article; the real thing." They have RL Stevenson's 1883 cite as first. There is no indication of the author. Jesse: if you need the entire poem, I'll be glad to mail you a hard copy by snailmail. I haven't figured out how to cut and paste from ancestry. I know about the 1856 and 1880 cites, but nothing so specific as this one. Sam Clements From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 7 20:23:02 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 15:23:02 EST Subject: Underwater Basket Weaving(1958) Message-ID: Maybe it first applied to Florida. 5 July 1969, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 51, col. 3: I picked the University of Florida, where I majored in underwater basket weaving and golf. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 7 20:25:48 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 15:25:48 -0500 Subject: Clements & Popik in N.Y. Times In-Reply-To: <001d01c3bcf8$7bd3df60$7e22a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Sam Clements wrote: > Hey! When Safire's lovely assistant, Kathleen Miller, wrote and asked me > for a description of myself, I gave her enough info to fill up the whole > column. That they decided to call me some whitebread name, er... uh..., > actually, it fits. > > At least Barry is an 'etymologist.' Hell, I've been called a "phrasedick" and an "etymological hawkshaw" in the "On Language" column. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sun Dec 7 21:29:05 2003 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:29:05 -0000 Subject: The real Mackay(1871) In-Reply-To: <002301c3bcff$35afc560$7e22a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: Sam Clements wrote: > At the conclusion of the poem, the starred term was explained thusly: > > < "it's not the real thing.">> > > This would appear to predate the RHDAS cite for the meaning of "the > genuine article; the real thing." They have RL Stevenson's 1883 cite > as first. A useful datum concerning transmission of the saying to the USA. The evidence suggests that the expression was indeed Scots. The earliest example is from 1856, recorded in the Scottish National Dictionary: 'A drappie [drop] o' the real MacKay'. The same work says that in 1870 the saying was adopted by Messrs G Mackay and Co, whisky distillers of Edinburgh as their advertising slogan. It's presumably the same expression that Stevenson and other writers of the period used (in that spelling), which later changed to "the real McCoy" in the USA and was later re-introduced into the UK in that spelling. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Dec 7 22:00:13 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 17:00:13 -0500 Subject: The real Mackay(1871) In-Reply-To: <3FD39BA1.5425.2D8606A@localhost> Message-ID: McKay ---> McCoy Was the pronunciation, perhaps the same? I note that Scots in eastern Canada are portrayed in literature as saying "by" for "boy," and, of course McKay ( & its variants) is pronounced "Mc KYE" in Scotland and the north of England. A. Murie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 7 22:13:03 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 17:13:03 EST Subject: Railroad Pie (1900) and Flannel Sausage (1890) Message-ID: Fred Shapiro ("the etymological hawkshaw phrasedick Eli") has revised a list of electronic databases. He left off GALILEO, from the State of Georgia's Digital Library. Yes, it still sucks and it hasn't been improved in the past year. "Georgia Books" turned up interesting cites for "railroad pie" and "flannel sausage." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- RAILROAD PIE I'd posted on "railroad cake," but not "railroad pie." There are 49 Google hits. There is a Making of America-Cornell hit, but that just indicates a pie eaten on the railroad. Anything special about this? (GOOGLE GROUPS) From: Donna Tomenga (dtomenga at ix.netcom.com) Subject: Re: 40's foods Newsgroups: rec.food.historic Date: 1996/03/16 I never see this one that my grandma made. It's called "Railroad Pie"(for whatever reason). Being farmers of not wealthy circumstances, shewould run low at the end of the month and would still feed all of thehired hands, plus the big family. Dinner always "had" to have adessert, so she made this out of leftover items. It's not fordiabetics, but it's delicious...even if there's any left over the nextday. Pie Crust:1-3/4 C white flourAbout 1/2 C lard (or use oil today - 1996)5 T cold waterPinch of salt Mix together to form pie crust, cutting in lard (or stirring in oil).Roll out on floured board for single pie crust (this recipe makes two).Bake in 400-degree oven for a few minutes until browned and crisp Filling:Sprinkle brown sugar all over bottom of baked pie crust.Put dots of oleo all over brown sugar.Sprinkle cinnamon all over that (to suit your taste).Shake water off your fingers all over that (This probably equals about8 teaspoons of water, but you can't drop the teaspoons of water ontothe stuff or you'll get soggy spots. You must drip/shake it off yourfingers). Put back into oven and bake for about 20 minutes. It will bevery runny (syrupy) and difficult to equal out the portions, but the taste is sooooo good. If you let it set, it will crystallize and beeasier to cut into portions. Note: This is NOT Shoo-Fly pie. It's Railroad Pie, or Brown Sugar Pie, and it's from Casey, Illinois, made from the 20's through 40's (and, of course, I still make it from time to time today). - Donna (GALILEO) http://www.galileo.usg.edu/cgi-bin/homepage.cgi Northern Georgia sketches / by Will N. Harden author: Harben, Will N. (Will Nathaniel), 1858-1919 (Harben?--ed.) extent: 305 p. ; 18 cm. publication: Chicago: A. C. McClurg, 1900 note: Originally appeared in the Century magazine, Lippincott's magazine, and other periodicals Pg. 55: ... busy man. He had traveled three hundred miles, slept [page 55] on the hard seat of a jolting train, eaten railroad pies and peanuts, and was covered with the grime of a dusty journey, all to w... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FLANNEL SAUSAGE I'd posted on "flannel cake" (see also DARE), but not "flannel sausage." The three Google hits are from this same source. (GALILEO) http://www.galileo.usg.edu/cgi-bin/homepage.cgi The new South / by Henry W. Grady ; with a character sketch of Henry W. Grady by Oliver Dyer author: Grady, Henry Woodfin, 1850-1889; Dyer, Oliver, 1824-1907 extent: v, 273 p. ; 18 cm. publication: New York: Robert Bonner's Sons, 1890 note: UGA SOLINET microfilm. Pg. 15: ... and squeezes pure olive oil out of his cotton seed, against any down-easter that ever swapped wooden nutmegs for flannel sausage in the valleys of Vermont. Above all, we know that we have achieved in... From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 7 22:50:40 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 17:50:40 -0500 Subject: The real Mackay(1871) Message-ID: Michael, Lighter seems to suggest that the 'real McKay' of the 1856 cite and the 1880 ''rale Mackay' are both referring to the whiskey. While any reasonable linguist would assume that the Scots were talking about "the real thing" in a general sense, it isn't conclusive. That's why he added to indicate usuages that clearly meant 'the real thing' in a metaphorical sense. The first of those that he cites is Stevenson in 1883 I meant only that my find would antedate his 'b.' sense of the phrase. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Quinion" To: "Sam Clements" ; Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [ADS-L] The real Mackay(1871) > Sam Clements wrote: > > > At the conclusion of the poem, the starred term was explained thusly: > > > > < > "it's not the real thing.">> > > > > This would appear to predate the RHDAS cite for the meaning of "the > > genuine article; the real thing." They have RL Stevenson's 1883 cite > > as first. > > A useful datum concerning transmission of the saying to the USA. The > evidence suggests that the expression was indeed Scots. The earliest > example is from 1856, recorded in the Scottish National Dictionary: > 'A drappie [drop] o' the real MacKay'. The same work says that in > 1870 the saying was adopted by Messrs G Mackay and Co, whisky > distillers of Edinburgh as their advertising slogan. It's presumably > the same expression that Stevenson and other writers of the period > used (in that spelling), which later changed to "the real McCoy" in > the USA and was later re-introduced into the UK in that spelling. > > -- > Michael Quinion > Editor, World Wide Words > E-mail: > Web: > > From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Dec 7 22:54:54 2003 From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:54:54 -0800 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <200312071337.hB7DbcDv024567@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Dennis, I don't know. The fact that I had her and learned how to speak has always stood me in good stead, and I'm grateful. I should think she'd have had a better epitaph! Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: "at" at the end of a where phrase > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >Does it say "She Made Us Ashamed of Who We Were" on Ms. Smith's headstone? > > dInIs > > > > >Too bad if it IS taking off! My 5th grade teacher, Miss Smith, for whom I > >am now eternally grateful, explained that the correct answer to "Where are > >you at?" or "Where are you going to?" was "between the a and the t, or the > >t and the o," which ever applied. It was a great phrase to use among > >ourselves, but I have grown increasingly careful about using it now . . . > >when even distinguished folk make the errors. > > > >Miss Smith had two goals in life -- to make her Texas students sound less > >like they came from Texas (no grammatical errors like those above, no > >pitcher frames, no liberries where we went to for the books, and never > >Febuerry or Massatusetts.) Don't know where she was from, but she was at > >least adamant about these. Her second goal was to produce a generation or > >two of writers, and here I think that she succeeded! > > > >Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg > From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Dec 7 22:59:55 2003 From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:59:55 -0800 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <200312071742.hB7HglZI032255@mxu7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for your letter, Pattii. Good points all around from the others. The interesting thing is that despite all the corrections, I don't think any of the students in the class felt ashamed. So there was something in the way she said it, the way she corrected what we wrote, and the way she encouraged us to write. I don't know what it was, but I've at least carried on some of it in the classroom myself. I don't correct spoken dialect, but I certainly did correct written papers for both content and "English." And I had the blessing of the head of the history dept for doing so. Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Patti Kurtz wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Patti Kurtz > Subject: Re: "at" at the end of a where phrase > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > write at SCN.ORG wrote: > > >I teach 8th grade. This thread makes me feel as if I should never correct > >my students writing. > > > Okay, I'm not a linguist per se, but an English prof, but my feelings > are that a9 it's okay to show students what's expected in "Standard > written English" as long as we don't disparage their own dialects in the > process. Students can learn to style shift very readily-- the problem, > I think, that Dennis and the others are focusing on is the view that one > dialect (the mythical standard) is somehow "better" than the others. > Plus speech and writing are very different-- we speak (as a rule) much > more informally than we write. And a lot of writing has to do with > audience. What are the students writing to who? (or should that be > whom?) Anyhow, I think as a teacher, it's important to teach the > conventions of written standard English, but to do so in a way that > doesn't make students ashamed of the way they talk. Students should > also realize that there may be a time or place in writing for dialect > and casual usage-- such as e mails, letters to friends, fiction, etc. > The key I think is in not labeling variants as "bad English" but as > variants which may not be accepted by the academic community. > > Okay, that's my 2 cents. > > Patti Kurtz > English Department > Minot State University > Minot, ND > > > No doubt, I will think something is wrong that > >really isn't, or is so common that I should just ignore it. Where is > >there help for teachers who were never trained about language themselves? > >Jan > > > > > > -- > > If you write nothing, nothing is what you end up with! > > > > Joseph Bruchac > From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Dec 7 23:04:01 2003 From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 15:04:01 -0800 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20"at"=20at=20the=20e?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?nd=20of=20a=20where=20phrase?= In-Reply-To: <200312071836.hB7IaDbc002819@mxu5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I don't have the slightest idea, and how clever of you to have asked the question I never thought to ask? I know that she came from somewhere in the South, because she didn't sound that far different from the rest of us. Perhaps she had the same school teachers that others of that generation did -- good handwriting and spelling and grammar skills drilled into them by a teacher who probably did no more than graduate from high school somewhere! Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM > Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20"at"=20at=20the=20e? > = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?nd=20of=20a=20where=20phrase?= > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In a message dated 12/6/03 8:35:48 PM, eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: > > How lucky y'all were to have Miss Smith to tell you what was right and what=20 > was wrong! But how did SHE know? > > > Miss Smith, for whom I > > am now eternally grateful, explained that the correct answer to "Where are > > you at?" or "Where are you going to?" was "between the a and the t, or the > > t and the o," which ever applied.=A0 It was a great phrase to use among > > ourselves, but I have grown increasingly careful about using it now . . . > > when even distinguished folk make the errors. > >=20 > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 8 01:06:42 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 20:06:42 -0500 Subject: where "right" and "wrong" come from In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > How lucky y'all were to have Miss Smith to tell you what was >right and what=20 > > was wrong! But how did SHE know? > > >I don't have the slightest idea, and how clever of you to have asked the >question I never thought to ask? I know that she came from somewhere in >the South, because she didn't sound that far different from the rest of >us. Perhaps she had the same school teachers that others of that >generation did -- good handwriting and spelling and grammar skills drilled >into them by a teacher who probably did no more than graduate from high >school somewhere! > >Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg > If I may presume, I suspect Ron (and Dennis) would then ask, quasi-rhetorically, where *those* teachers obtained their notion of proper usage. Is there any non-arbitrary way to define "good grammar"? If we think of "correct" grammar as being like "correct" styles in clothing or interior decoration or arrangement of the dining table, the arbitrariness--in telling you what was right and what was wrong--becomes clear... larry From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Dec 8 01:16:26 2003 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti Kurtz) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 19:16:26 -0600 Subject: "at" at the e nd of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <200312071804.6603fd3b1e417f@rly-nc01.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU wrote: > Perhaps she had the same school teachers that others of that >generation did -- good handwriting and spelling and grammar skills drilled >into them by a teacher who probably did no more than graduate from high >school somewhere! > Julia: Thanks for the earlier comments. However, not to drag this out, but I don't remember learning ANYTHING that helped me write in my "grammar" classes (here meaning "prescriptive or school grammar, not descriptive grammar or my linguistic classes). In fact, I think I slept or doodled through most of them. The teachers who inspired me to write were the ones who let me write-- who encouraged me to write-- and didn't try to "correct" my grammar or make me do Reed Kellogg diagrams of sentences. And I've found the same is true of my students-- the ones who say they "can't" write are the ones whose papers have been shredded for grammar mistakes by some teacher back in their past. I usually spend about half a semester encouraging these students that yes, they can write before they start to believe it. If your teacher was able to do both in a way that inspired you to write, more power to her. But I'd have to say my grammar knowledge came more from reading and imitating than from any corrections any teacher did to my papers. And I'd have to admit I wasn't inspired to write by any teacher who graded primarily on grammar or handwriting. By the way, I believe the point being made in Ron's post is that "right" and "wrong" in spoken English are relative, depending of course on which dialect one speaks. Patti > > -- If you write nothing, nothing is what you end up with! Joseph Bruchac From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 8 01:33:39 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 20:33:39 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Movie" In-Reply-To: <200307212100.h6LL0hS22107@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: I have previously posted a May 1911 citation for the word "movie," earlier than anything else in the OED or HDAS if the apparently erroneous 1902 citation is dismissed. Here is a slightly earlier antedating, from Ancestry.com: 1911 _Bucks County Gazette_ 24 Mar. 1 The Saturday evening pictures are as usual "movies." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG Mon Dec 8 03:37:32 2003 From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:37:32 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase Message-ID: On 12/7/2003 01:09 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote the following: >But you're confusing writing with speaking again. I agree that a certain >"standard" should be taught in writing, if only to give kids an equal >chance in higher education and the job market. This still implicitly promotes the idea that there are certain lects that are better than others -- those used by the highly educated vs. those used by the relatively ignorant, those used by people worthy of gainful employment vs. those used by vagrants, bums and good-for-nothings, and so on. Why not just make explicit the underpinnings of all this: power. The so-called "standard" varieties of a language are those used by the powerful, and the powerful can and will discriminate against you if you don't adapt to their way of doing things -- in language use, dress, mores and any other significant aspect of social interaction. This approach not only gets a heck of a lot closer to the essence of the matter, it also shifts the burden of justifying indecency to the indecent -- instead of the speaker having to justify his "bad taste" or "ignorance" in using the linguistic system he happens to have in his head, those who would discriminate on this basis are left having to justify their discriminatory behavior. Cheers, Scott _____________________________________________________________ Scott Sadowsky ? sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org http://www.spanishtranslator.org _____________________________________________________________ "Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world, on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions." -- Polybius From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Dec 8 01:57:31 2003 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti Kurtz) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 19:57:31 -0600 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <200312072036.113fd3d5971b0@rly-na01.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG wrote: >Why not just make explicit the underpinnings of all this: power. The >so-called "standard" varieties of a language are those used by the >powerful, and the powerful can and will discriminate against you if you >don't adapt to their way of doing things -- in language use, dress, mores >and any other significant aspect of social interaction. > Amen to that, Scott. I think making these assumptions explicit is a good way to start discussion in the classroom as well as make students aware of the way things are "out in the world". My Linguistics students and I talk about this all the time. I usually tell my composition students that they need to write the way the academy expects them to so they can graduate and get jobs-- not because there's something inherently "better" about it. It's a good discussion starter about "who sets the standard." > > If you write nothing, nothing is what you end up with! Joseph Bruchac From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 8 02:04:29 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:04:29 EST Subject: NYU's Revolutionary War Food & Drink; Pina Colada (1968) Message-ID: REVOLUTIONARY WAR FOOD & DRINK From NYU TODAY ON THE WEB, 21 November 2003: http://www.nyu.edu/nyutoday/archives/17/05/Stories/libraries-digitize.html NYU Libraries to Digitize Early American, Revolutionary War Documents By Barbara Jester The Division of Libraries of New York University, in partnership with the New-York Historical Society, has received a National Leadership Grant of $199,499 from the Institute of Museum and Library Services to create a digital resource, ?Witness to the Early American Experience,? for the study of the American Revolution and the early Republic. The centerpiece of the project will be the Richard Maass Collection in NYU?s Fales Collection, which consists of over 300 autographed letters, documents, broadsides, and newspapers that chronicle the early history of New York from its colonization by the Dutch in the seventeenth century through the tumultuous years of the Revolutionary War. Great figures of the American Revolution are well represented in the Collection, including autographed letters by George Washington, one of which outlines his plans for the battle of New York City; John Jay; the Marquis de Lafayette; Benedict Arnold; Samuel Adams; John Hancock; and Charles Lee. There are also such significant items as a land treaty from 1680 for the first purchase of Connecticut land from Native Americans; information, in the form of receipts for supplies, on what the Revolutionary army ate and drank; and a letter by John Quincy Adams from 1839 articulating his position on the freedom of the slaves (he was against it). (...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- PINA COLADA I'll wrap up a little of the Caribbean. The "pina colada" citation (1968, from the Virgin Islands) is possible of interest. The FIELDING'S GUIDE (1968) had nice, separate descriptions of "food" _and_ "drinks" for _each_ island. In about 30 days, I'll be in Mali, Senegal, and Ghana. I'd been in East Africa (Kenya, Tanzania, Zanzibar) last New Year's 2003. I've also been to South Africa (South Africa, Zambia, Botswana, Swaziland, Zimbabwe) and North Africa (Morocco, Tunisia. Egypt). Many of the food terms of the Caribbean originate in West Africa. EASTERN CARIBBEAN Victoria, Australia: Lonely Planet Publications First published--October 1994 3rd edition--September 2001 Pg. 575: Food & Drink Glossary accras bake blaff buljol callaloo soup christophene colombo conch conkies cou-cou crabes farcis Creole cutter dasheen dolphin feroce d'avocat flying fish goat water guava Ital jambalaya johnnycake jug-jug lambi mahimahi mango mauby mountain chicken oil down papaya Pg. 576: passionfruit paw paw pepperpot pigeon peas pineapple plantain Planters punch roti soursop sorrel juice souse starfruit tamarind FIELDING'S GUIDE TO THE CARIBBEAN, INCLUDING THE BAHAMAS 1969-70 EDITION by Jeanne and Harry E. Harman, III New York: Fielding Publications, Incorporated 1968 Pg. 205 (Barbados): Cou Cou, Jug Jug, Fish Pash, Twice Laid, Sea Egg Pie, Grapefruit Meringues, Guava Fool, Yam Balls, Pickled Breadfruit--the local specialties taste as fascinatingly titillating as their titles. Pg. 213 (Barbados): If you want to show your Bajan friends you're with it, ask for a Goat Hair or a Tewahdiddle. To make the former, combine 16 ounces of raw lliquor (cane juice), the juice of a lime, and one gill or um, and sprinkle nutmeg on the top. If this one doesn't put the fur on your rib cage, much less Billie G.'s, we give up. To swizzle a Tewahdiddle, blend a pint of beer, one tablespoon of brandy, and a teaspoon of sugar with ginger and lemon peel; a Barbadian boilermaker. Pg. 291 (Haiti): One of the outstanding taste delights is Tassot--thin strips of beef or turkey marinated in seasoned lime juice and left to cook in the sun. Peas and rice are as good as any in the Caribbean; Griot, a pork staple, is usually roasted; the black rice and langouste are excellent. Pg. 347 (Jamaica): Solomon Gundy, Dip and Fall Back, Beef Cling-Cling, Spatchcock of Pigeon, Stamp and Go--the names of Jamaican dishes roll over your tongue as juicily as the creations themselves. Pg. 362 (Jamaica): Among the best of mixed drinks are the Big Bamboo or the Appleton Glow (you'll get the latter free on arrival at Palisadoes Airport). Pg. 389 (Martinique): but for everyday consumption, islanders favor such _amuse-gueules_ (literally, mouth-amuser; practically, cocktail tidbits), Feroce (avocado stuffed with its own meat mixed with maioc and bits of fish), home-grown bananas, papaya, and pineapple, breadfruit soup--and always, plenty of rum! Pg. 395 (Martinique): "Petit punch," the national drink, bears no resemblance to a martini in the making, yet somehow (Pg. 396--ed.) maqnages to create the same soul-soothing, nothing-quite-like-it effect; it looks much the same too. Risking the wrath of some theorists (every connoisseur swears his is the only proper way to make a "petit punch"), here is our favorite formula: to one part cane-sugar syrup (preboil a little more sugar than water together) add 5 parts white rum, 2 ice cubes, and a dash of West Indian, repat, West Indian, green lime. Squeeze some of the juice into the glass, then drop the rest of the tiny fruit into the drink. (We can hear the screams from here: lime _ruins_ vintage rum!) Nevertheless, with or without lime, _merveilleux_. Pg. 436 (Puerto Rico): Chicken and rice--called Arroz con Pollo or Asopao--comes in many forms but is basically a simplified paella; it's the island's most popular dish. Pg. 528 (Trinidad and Tobago): Pelau--a medley of beef, chicken, tomatoes, onion, garlic, raisins, brown sugar, and hot peppers--tastes best when served with either Fou-fou (a local dumpling) or fried plantain with fresh avocado slices. Try Tuloons--delicious little molasses cakes spiked with coconut, fresh ginger, orange peel, and nuts--cassava pone pudding, or pastilles. Pg. 605 (U. S. Virgin Islands): The most famous drink in the islands is the banana daiquiri, a noxious mixture which tates like nail-polish remover; other concoctions served up for your edification unclude a strawberry daiquiri, pina colada (coconut-milk base), and assorted planter's punches--libations about as acceptable to our taste buds as a pink lady. Perhaps you will feel differently. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Dec 8 02:07:24 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:07:24 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase Message-ID: I see some difficulties with this approach. First, I question whether it is at all practical. I take it as axiomatic that some writing is better than others (e.g., that Mark Twain's dialect writings are better than the instructions to Form 1040); that it is advantageous to be able to write well; and that education can, at least potentially, improve writing skills (I put aside for now the pedagogical question, already raised, of how this can be done). It is probably impossible for writing teachers to avoid teaching their own dialects. Second, the implications are by no means clear. I suppose that the hoped-for result is that the powerful will become aware of the discriminatory effects of their views and will moderate them. However, if the effect is simply to de-emphasize training in writing standard English, then the lot of the powerless will only get worse. Conversely, if Scott's approach is widely accepted, the effect could be the opposite: All might seek to use standard English, the language of the powerful, and would therefore denigrate nonstandard dialects. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Scott Sadowsky [mailto:lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 10:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "at" at the end of a where phrase On 12/7/2003 01:09 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote the following: >But you're confusing writing with speaking again. I agree that a certain >"standard" should be taught in writing, if only to give kids an equal >chance in higher education and the job market. This still implicitly promotes the idea that there are certain lects that are better than others -- those used by the highly educated vs. those used by the relatively ignorant, those used by people worthy of gainful employment vs. those used by vagrants, bums and good-for-nothings, and so on. Why not just make explicit the underpinnings of all this: power. The so-called "standard" varieties of a language are those used by the powerful, and the powerful can and will discriminate against you if you don't adapt to their way of doing things -- in language use, dress, mores and any other significant aspect of social interaction. This approach not only gets a heck of a lot closer to the essence of the matter, it also shifts the burden of justifying indecency to the indecent -- instead of the speaker having to justify his "bad taste" or "ignorance" in using the linguistic system he happens to have in his head, those who would discriminate on this basis are left having to justify their discriminatory behavior. Cheers, Scott _____________________________________________________________ Scott Sadowsky ? sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org http://www.spanishtranslator.org _____________________________________________________________ "Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world, on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions." -- Polybius From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Mon Dec 8 03:41:42 2003 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey S. Nathan) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:41:42 -0600 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Mon Dec 8 02:56:48 2003 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:56:48 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:37:32 -0500 Scott Sadowsky writes: > This still implicitly promotes the idea that there are certain lects > that > are better than others -- those used by the highly educated vs. > those used > by the relatively ignorant, those used by people worthy of gainful > employment vs. those used by vagrants, bums and good-for-nothings, > and so on. > > Why not just make explicit the underpinnings of all this: power. Oh, horsefeathers. If you want a waitress ... a waitperson job in a tony Manhattan restaurant, you don't walk in in pink hot pants and heart shaped sunglasses, nor do you speak as if you were raised in a Mississippi juke joint. But equally, try finding a job as a bartender on the morning shift at a Bowery bar if you walk in wearing a blue blazer, gray flannels, wingtips, and talking like a Connecticut Brahman. I taught my children that there is no such thing as right language or wrong language, but there is appropriate language. If a person is unable or unwilling to learn the language of moderately educated people, that can reasonably be taken as an important factor in judging ability to perform in a lucrative and upwardly mobile job. Power of the elite over the downtrodden has little to do with it. D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Mon Dec 8 03:10:36 2003 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:10:36 -0500 Subject: where "right" and "wrong" come from Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 20:06:42 -0500 Laurence Horn > If I may presume, I suspect Ron (and Dennis) would then ask, > quasi-rhetorically, where *those* teachers obtained their notion of > proper usage. Is there any non-arbitrary way to define "good > grammar"? I'm sure Justice Potter Steward could find a way. D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Mon Dec 8 03:12:16 2003 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:12:16 EST Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase Message-ID: For any English teacher, currently teaching who never had a course in language, or teacher-in-training, I would recommend Walt Wolfram, Carolyn Temple Adger, and Donna Christian's Dialects in Schools and Communities (1999, Lawrence Erlbaum Associates). It is geared more toward educators than Wolfram and Schilling-Estes, and is very accessible to the non-linguist. DF Coye The College of NJ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 8 03:37:25 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:37:25 -0500 Subject: Basket Weaving (1952, 1958) Message-ID: Oh, all right. Here goes: Big Green Coach Tempers Praise With Suggestions By Phil Elderkin Sports Writer of The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Oct 21, 1958. p. 10 (1 page): When Bob said yesterday that he thought other grid conferences were beginning to adopt some of the ideals of the Ivy League, he was striking a blow to those colleges which do not give money under the table, buy their players automobiles, or offer courses in basket weaving and pencil sharpening. SPORTS PARADE BRAVEN DYER. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 26, 1952. p. C1 (1 page): Ineligibility of Northwestern's Dan Karchaturoff reminds me of the time some years ago when Illinois was having trouble with a star gridder. Somebody claimed he had been taking snap courses such as "Our Trees and How to Climb Them," basket weaving, elementary canoeing, etc. SPORTSCRIPTS PAUL ZIMMERMAN, FRANK FINCH. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 18, 1950. p. C1 (1 page): Ned Cronin studying Hopi basketweaving at night school. From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG Mon Dec 8 05:55:30 2003 From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 00:55:30 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/7/2003 09:07 PM, Baker, John wrote the following: >I see some difficulties with this approach. First, I question whether it >is at all practical. I take it as axiomatic that some writing is better >than others [...]; that it is advantageous to be able to write well; and >that education can, at least potentially, improve writing skills.... I don't think what we could call the union of the set of "good" writing and the set of "non-standard" English features is all that big. I have the distinct impression that 90% of "good writing" is providing your information in an easy-to-digest order, dividing it up into easily-assimilable units, making explicit information your audience doesn't necessarily have or won't necessarily access when reading your writing, and so on. The other 10% (yes, I'm making these numbers up as I go along) is about using the right vocabulary, and that has more to do with register and technolect than dialect -- it rarely matters if your dialect uses "bucket" or "pail", but it may matter very much if you call an "oil sump" an "oil pail" or an "oil bucket". >Second, the implications are by no means clear. I suppose that the >hoped-for result is that the powerful will become aware of the >discriminatory effects of their views and will moderate them. Not even I am so utopian. The main result I would hope for would be the disappearance of lect-based inferiority complexes and self-esteem problems. >Conversely, if Scott's approach is widely accepted, the effect could be >the opposite: All might seek to use standard English, the language of the >powerful, and would therefore denigrate nonstandard dialects. Does that happen with things other than language, where people are aware of the coercion that they're subject to? Does the existence of high school dress codes get kids all enthusiastic about dressing like the powerful tell them to, or do they grit their teeth and dress that way because they know they'll be punished for not doing so? Cheers, Scott __________________________________________________________________ Scott Sadowsky ? sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org http://www.spanishtranslator.org __________________________________________________________________ "Linguistics is arguably the most hotly contested property in the academic realm. It is soaked with the blood of poets, theologians, philosophers, philologists, psychologists, biologists, and neurologists, along with whatever blood can be got out of grammarians." -- Russ Rymer From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG Mon Dec 8 06:06:03 2003 From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 01:06:03 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031207214138.02a2b2b0@mail.wayne.edu> Message-ID: On 12/7/2003 10:41 PM, Geoffrey S. Nathan wrote the following: >I will probably regret this comment, since it is somewhat out of the >mainstream, but I am increasingly convinced that the association of >'correct' grammar with those in 'power' is itself an item of faith by >those of a progressive social bent. I'll let the English-based linguists who hang out here address the specific cases you cite. For my part, let me give you some evidence from the Spanish-speaking world. Ask any Chilean about how they speak Spanish, and they'll go off on a tirade about how horribly they and their countrymen speak the language. And these rants are inclusive -- their criticism is also self-criticism. Ask them where "good" Spanish is spoken and they'll tell you Peru and, in second place, Colombia. If you ask them specifically about how Argentinians speak the language, you'll probably be told that they speak it pretty well, but that they're not exactly models to be imitated (national rivalries play a strong part in this judgement). Ask Bolivians where "good" Spanish is spoken and the answer will almost certainly be Peru. Lima, to be specific. Central Americans will cite either Mexico (Mexico City) or Colombia (especially Bogota if they're familiar with the different dialects) as being where "good" Spanish is spoken. Argentinians from Buenos Aires are quite content with their own use of Spanish, having gone so far as to create a Lunfardo language academy, Lunfardo being the underclass and lower-class sociolect immortalized in thousands of tango lyrics. But ask provincial Argentinians about how they speak and they'll tell you the residents of Buenos Aires are the folks who really know how to speak right. I've also been told, anecdotally, that Venezuelans will tend to admit --teeth-grittingly, due to national rivalries-- that Colombians speak Spanish better than they do, especially the residents of Bogota. So, what's behind this? What's the pattern here? Why do Lima, Bogota, Mexico City and --to a much lesser degree-- Buenos Aires keep popping up as bastions of "good" Spanish? Pull out your pre-1810 historical maps you'll see that these cities were the capitals of the viceroyalties the Spanish established in their colonies in the Americas. They were the centers of civil, judicial, religious and economic power, as well being the centers of education. And two centuries after they were abolished, they continue to be the centers of "good" Spanish in the mind of the vast majority of speakers. (Spain itself, by the way, is virtually never cited as such a place, most likely due to its role as the villain in this story). Buenos Aires' status as a place where "pretty good" --but not "good"-- Spanish is spoken can be explained by the fact that the viceroyalty of which it was the capital was the last one of the four to be established. Argentina is a fascinating case in this regard. A whole series of linguistic changes occurred in the century after Buenos Aires was made capital of a viceroyalty, as the lower classes increasingly imitated the middle classes who were following lead of the local ruling class which was busy imitating the Spanish elite. To cite just one example, there was a strong and very well-documented lambdacist tendency (a low prestige feature) in Argentinian Spanish that is now utterly extinct. So no, there is really no faith at play here at all. >In my experience the strongest defenders of 'correct' grammar are >primarily school teachers and print journalists, hardly those who >constitute bastions of political and social power. Ah, but they are defending their privileged positions as gatekeepers to nothing less than "correct English". It is a piddling bit of turf they have to defend, but it's all they have, and as you've noted they are very fierce in their defense of it. After all, it's about the only power they've got. BTW, in the debate that's arisen on this matter there's a very strong tendency to interpret "power" as being only the very top level of power, and that's just not the case. A McDonald's shift manger only has slightly more power than a homeless person, but if you're a line cook on his shift his power is considerable -- he could ruin your life for a couple months by firing you and making you unable to pay the bills. Cheers, Scott Cheers, Scott From pds at VISI.COM Mon Dec 8 05:36:30 2003 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 23:36:30 -0600 Subject: Bob-key In-Reply-To: <20031129172737.C968D6297@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: So I'm in the stall, and there being no graffiti, I'm reduced to reading the instructions for changing rolls of tissue. These instructions make reference to a "bob-key", which is apparently inserted into the spindle in such a way that one of the axial pins is pushed back, allowing the spindle to be removed from the wall bracket. I'm guessing that a heavy paper-clip would do the job, but the term itself is new to me. I'm also puzzled as to which of the senses of "bob" might be involved here. So too is an Andrea Tomkins at http://www.quietfish.com/notebook/20323.html (the only true hit in Google): >>>>>1. Insert bob-key into spindle hole No.1. (My question - what is a bob-key, and why should a toilet roll holder even need one? Is this a new antitheft feature? More importantly, who, in my office, is the Keeper of the Bob-key? Dare I broach this subject with the office manager?) <<<<< Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From indigo at WELL.COM Mon Dec 8 06:15:51 2003 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:15:51 -0800 Subject: Underwater Basket Weaving(1958) Message-ID: >I seriously doubt that there is a real field of underwater weaving, however. > >-- Doug Wilson I originally had the same understanding of "underwater basketweaving" that everyone has been discussing, but later found out that there is actually a basketweaving technique in which you keep the work submerged in water (presumably to soften the fibers so they are easier to bend). I don't know if it's actually *called* underwater basketweaving, & in any case it's very different from the scubadiving image evoked by the college usage. I've also heard "underwater toenail-clipping", I guess for when "underwater basketweaving" began to feel too overused, clicheed, not clever enough, &c. -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com http://www.indigosom.com Fetish of the week: fragrant white flowers (narcissus, tuberose, night-blooming cereus) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 8 08:09:42 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 03:09:42 EST Subject: Ajiaco or Agico (1762) Message-ID: A description of the Spanish islands and settlements on the coast of the West Indies, comp. from authentic memoirs, rev. by gentlemen who have resided many years in the Spanish settlements; and illustrated with thirty-two maps and plans, chiefly from original drawings taken from the Spaniards in the last war, and engraved by Thomas Jefferys ... Imprint London, T. Jefferys, 1762. (CATNYP record from NYPL. I read the 1970 AMS EDITION reprint at NYU, from the "edition of 1792, London." I'm sure it's the same as 1762 because Thomas Jefferys died in 1771. The copyright page probably erred with 1792 rather than 1762. The copied title page shows 1762--ed.) "Ajiaco" is still not in OED or Merriam-Webster? See the ADS-L archives. I discussed "ajiaco" around when I visited Cuba (Christmas 2001-New Year's 2002). Amazon.com is amazing. "Ajiaco" is not only in about 50 books, but it's on FOUR MENUS. Amazon now has menus! OED has never cited from this book in about 250 years? Pg. 16: The manzanilla is remarkable for its poisonous fruit; the antidote is common oil: the wood is variegated like marble. (OED has various spellings of "manchineel" from 1625--ed.) Pg. 16: The palm trees are of four species: the first produce cocos or coco nuts; the second dates; the third, called _palma real_, a very disagreeable fruit, less than the date; and the fourth, called _corozo_, a fruit larger than the date, of exquisite taste, and greatly used in making cooling and wholsome draughts. (OED has "1760-1772 tr." for "corozo"--ed.) Pg. 16: The bejuco with, or vine here bears a fruit called habilla, or bean, very bitter, but one of the most effectual antidotes against the bited of vipers and serpents;... (OED has 1848 for "bejuco"--ed.) Pg. 17: Barley, wheat, and other esculent grains of _europe_, are little known; maize and rice, of which they make their bolla, or bread, abound even to excess. The best sort of bolla is kneaded with milk. Among the negroes the cassava bread is most common; it is made of the roots of yuca, yams, and moniatos, the upper skin of which they strip off, and grate the inside into water. There is great plenty of camotes, in taste like _Malaga_ potatoes, used both as pickles, and roots with meat. Pg. 17: The cacao trees, from which chocolate is made, excel here, and the chocolate is more esteemed than that of other countries; especially the chocolate of the _Magdalena_, which is highly valued, and by way of distinction, in preference to that of the _Caracas_, is sold by millares. Pg. 18: The fruits peculiar to the country, are the pine-apple, which from its beauty, smell, and taste is stiled by way of preference, the queen of fruits; the papapays, guanabanas, guayabas, sapotes, mameis, plantanes, cocos, which is a species of the palm-tree, and many others. Pg. 18: Among the nobility and better sort their most luxurious dish is the agico; which consists of pork fried, birds of several kinds, plantanes, maize paste, and seasonings made of pimento or agi. Pg. 58: The _Vainilla_ is a little cod full of small black seeds; it is four or five inches long, bigger than the stem of a tobacco leaf, but when dried, much resembling it; so that our privateers at first often threw them away, when they took any, wondering why the _Spaniards_ should lay up tobacco-items. Pg. 62: in the neighbourhood of _Vera Cruz_, there grows the nopal, a species of the _Tuna_, or prickly pear, but without thorns, on which the _Cochineal_ is found. (...) These pastles are then placed upon the plants of the nopal, or prickly _Indian_ fig (which they take care to cultivate well for this purpose) and in two, three or four days these animals bring forth a great many young ones; soon after which the dams die. (OED has 1730, then 1783 for "nopal"--ed.) Pg. 63: This they do much in the same manner as before, only now they take off the plant a great many young ones, with their dams, which makes this sort of cochineal to be called _Granilla_, from the quantity of small ones found therein. (OED has 1812 for "granilla"--ed.) Pg. 63: As to the manner of killing the cochineal, this is commonly done two ways; either in hot water, or in tamascales, which are little ovens made for that purpose; though they are sometimes killed by roasting them upon comales, which are flat stoves with fire under them, made use of by the _Indian_ women to bake their maize bread. ("Tamascales" and "comales" are not in OED?--ed.) From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Mon Dec 8 12:52:42 2003 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 07:52:42 -0500 Subject: The Elephant's Memory - invented writing system Message-ID: The Elephant's Memory is a pictorial language consisting of more than a hundred and a fifty combinable graphic elements (pictograms and ideograms). It invites people from various cultural backgrounds to communicate and explore a new means of expression. http://www.khm.de/~timot/pageTwo.html From db.list at PMPKN.NET Mon Dec 8 14:00:51 2003 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 09:00:51 -0500 Subject: Underwater Basket Weaving(1958) Message-ID: From: "Douglas G. Wilson" : I've heard "basket weaving" (unmodified) as an "undemanding course : archetype" since the 1960's myself. There are -- I assume -- many real : college courses in basket weaving (as an art or craft). Augmented : expressions such as "underwater basket-weaving", "Serbo-Croatian : basket-weaving", etc. make the humor transparent, with the longer : names also denoting "specialized" forms of basket-weaving with the : implication that the 'jock' or other (academically) incompetent (or : lazy) student can make a whole academic career out of such : 'specializations'. Growing up (in Maryland in the 1970s/1980s), courses in Underwater Basket Weaving were always attributed to universities in California. When one was named, it was (as i recall) either UCLA or Berkeley. : I believe there is also the understanding that an expertise in such an : activity would be worthless in the employment market after graduation. I actually heard a variant of it once (in high school, mid- to late 1980s) where someone said people joke about courses in Underwater Basket Weaving, but it's called that 'cause you ahve to keep the basket-making materials under water so that they remain flexible enough to weave--so, therefore, a course in Underwater Basket Weaving isn't as bogus as the name makes it sound. I never really looked into it--is this yet another case of the debunking of an urban myth being an urban myth itself? Nothing on this seems to be in the snopes.com archives. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Mon Dec 8 14:01:45 2003 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 09:01:45 -0500 Subject: chocolate Message-ID: From: "Mark A. Mandel" : From: David Bowie : Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the : house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is : chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. : Ah ha! I JUST ended a letter to a friend with what I remembered of : these Laws, with the apology "(attribution mislaid)". Whence come : they? Jeanne Bowie, my wife, about 3 years ago. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Mon Dec 8 15:04:41 2003 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 10:04:41 -0500 Subject: Bob-key Message-ID: Tom, The bob key is probably an item from the corporation Bobrick Washroom Equipment, Inc. (North Hollywood, CA), a maker of washroom equipment. http://www.bobrick.com/ Their catalog notes that the "theft resistant spindle" may be "removed with special key furnished"... http://www.bobrick.com/Literature/downloads/ttdispenser.pdf Cannot find 'bob key' as a mention on their site. George Cole Shippensburg University From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 8 19:45:23 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:45:23 EST Subject: "Nice Guys Finish Last" (1946); Long Ball (1920); Where's my "boner"? Message-ID: NICE GUYS FINISH LAST For the possible interest of anyone writing a quotations dictionary. The entire story is here on www.paperofrecord.com. 17 July 1946, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 8, col. 1: _"Nice Guys" Wind Up in Last Place, Scoffs Lippy_ By FRANK GRAHAM Of New York Journal-American ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- LONG BALL A nice guy at OED asked about this. 24 June 1920, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 4, col. 6: He will drive a long ball to any field now and then, but center is his "groove." 9 December 1920, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 1, col. 4: As he can still hit as good as ever, he may do a Babe Ruth in the Pacific Coast League, as the Salt Lake park and several other parks on the circuit are said to be highly advantageous to "long ball" hitters. 7 July 1921, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 1, col. 6: Perhaps Rapp will find his batting eye to the half portion park here, so accommodating and friendly to a player who hits a long ball. 28 December 1922, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 4, col. 6: The pitcher can take a chance--no great chance at that--with a weak hitter, a man who will not hit a long ball, that he dare not take with men like Tobin, Blue, et al., who, at any time, are liable to bury that ball in the stands for a home run. ------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WHERE'S MY BONER? I can't get a "boner" reading the SPORTING NEWS. This is terrible. Nor a "bone head." Nor a "jinx." Nor a "seventh inning stretch." Nor a "winning isn't everything." Nor a "you can't win 'em all." Nor a "you can look it up." DUDE, WHERE'S MY BONER? From psokolowski at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Dec 8 20:18:20 2003 From: psokolowski at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Peter Sokolowski) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 15:18:20 -0500 Subject: in case you were wondering if "McJob" really, really IS a word... Message-ID: (...it made the headline in "LeMonde" today. No mention of M-W, though, just a business article describing what it calls "precarious" jobs and Wal-Mart's growing influence worldwide). http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0 at 2-3208,36-344985,0.html Peter A. Sokolowski Associate Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. 47 Federal Street Springfield, MA 01102 Phone: (413) 734-3134 x178 E-mail: psokolowski at Merriam-Webster.com www.Merriam-Webster.com www.Merriam-WebsterCollegiate.com www.Merriam-WebsterUnabridged.com From Vocabula at AOL.COM Mon Dec 8 20:23:23 2003 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 15:23:23 EST Subject: in case you were wondering if "McJob" really, really IS a word... Message-ID: It may be a word, but it's a miserable one. http://www.vocabula.com/FreeArticles/VRAUGUST03Fiske.htm Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review www.vocabula.com ______________________ The Vocabula Review A measly $8.95 a year www.vocabula.com ______________________ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 United States Tel: (781) 861-1515 Five by Fiske: The five essays included in this volume are as follows: "The Decline of the Dictionary"; "The Perfectibility of Words" and "The Imperfectibility of People," chapters 1 and 2 of The Dictionary of Concise Writing; "Expressions That Dull Our Reason and Dim Our Insight" and "Writing That Demands to Be Read Aloud, Speech That Calls to Be Captured in Print," chapters 1 and 2 of The Dimwit's Dictionary. http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooks.htm#VRfiveby From abigail.zitin at OUP.COM Mon Dec 8 20:50:22 2003 From: abigail.zitin at OUP.COM (Zitin, Abigail) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 15:50:22 -0500 Subject: for basketball fans Message-ID: I had thought drafting an entry for "point guard" was going to be simple (my first quot is December 1970, from proquest, if anyone's interested in finding an antedating). To a certain extent, it was; what I'm stuck on is the (apparently) subsequent use of "point" in the same (or a closely related) sense. Webster's Sports Dict. (1976) has "a player position in the frontcourt in the area roughly between the division line and the free throw circle which is occupied by a guard who directs the team's offense." My first contextual quot, however, is the following: 1978 N.Y. Times 16 Jan. C12/4 John Moore, a junior guard...played the point in the zone defense that forced 19 Razorback turnovers. Does this quotation indicate that John Moore is playing a position in the zone defense referred to as the "point"? or is he defending the other team's point guard? The Canadian Oxford Dictionary, to complicate matters, has "a frontcourt position, usu. manned by the guard who sets up the team's defence." My sense is that "point" is not used in basketball as a purely spatial designation (as it is in hockey), and while it is frequently just short for "point guard" (1999, XXL Basketball, Aug: "You shouldn't play two-guard, you should play the point"), it has a somewhat looser application (as Webster's Sports Dict. implies with "a player position") insofar as another player could take over the function of the point guard. So: any thoughts on this? offense vs. defense, spatial vs. personal, etc... all musings welcome (including likely contexts in which one might hear this: all I've been able to find is "play the point", but could you have someone "at point"? shooting "from [the] point"? etc.) All antedatings too, as ever. Many thanks, from the athletically impaired Abigail Zitin OED From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 8 21:22:22 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:22:22 -0500 Subject: for basketball fans In-Reply-To: <3888B7D1173A414C930CED891249F6360249FB1D@newyork.am.oup.biz> Message-ID: At 3:50 PM -0500 12/8/03, Zitin, Abigail wrote: >I had thought drafting an entry for "point guard" was going to be >simple (my first quot is December 1970, from proquest, if anyone's >interested in finding an antedating). To a certain extent, it was; >what I'm stuck on is the (apparently) subsequent use of "point" in the >same (or a closely related) sense. > >Webster's Sports Dict. (1976) has "a player position in the frontcourt >in the area roughly between the division line and the free throw >circle which is occupied by a guard who directs the team's offense." >My first contextual quot, however, is the following: > >1978 N.Y. Times 16 Jan. C12/4 John Moore, a junior guard...played the >point in the zone defense that forced 19 Razorback turnovers. > >Does this quotation indicate that John Moore is playing a position in >the zone defense referred to as the "point"? or is he defending the >other team's point guard? The Canadian Oxford Dictionary, to >complicate matters, has "a frontcourt position, usu. manned by the >guard who sets up the team's defence." > >My sense is that "point" is not used in basketball as a purely spatial >designation (as it is in hockey), and while it is frequently just >short for "point guard" (1999, XXL Basketball, Aug: "You shouldn't >play two-guard, you should play the point"), it has a somewhat looser >application (as Webster's Sports Dict. implies with "a player >position") insofar as another player could take over the function of >the point guard. > >So: any thoughts on this? offense vs. defense, spatial vs. personal, >etc... all musings welcome (including likely contexts in which one >might hear this: all I've been able to find is "play the point", but >could you have someone "at point"? shooting "from [the] point"? etc.) >All antedatings too, as ever. > Off the top of my head (where NBA players would likely dribble the ball)... The usual reference here in pro basketball is to the offense rather than the defense; "playing the point" usually means bringing the ball upcourt and ceteris paribus the point guard is the player who is generally responsible for doing so. He (or she) controls the ball, passes well, and almost always leads the team in assists; he is sometimes compared to the quarterback in football, both for leadership/responsibility qualities and for adeptness at passing. The "guard" part, though, may include defensive responsibilities as well, or so I gather from the fact that occasionally you find NBA players referred to as "point forward". The first time I recall this was when Milwaukee Bucks coach (now Dallas Maverick coach) Don Nelson appointed one of his players, Paul Presser, "point forward" in the late 1970s, presumably because even though he was taller than most guards and didn't defend the other team's guards he was a good ball-handler. But when the versatile Magic Johnson came into the league at 6'9", he was referred to a point guard simpliciter even though he was eminently capable of rebounding, shooting hooks, and exhibiting other non-guard-like skills, as well as setting the career assist record that stood until a more conventional (though excellent) point guard, John Stockton, broke it a few years ago. It can be a detriment for a point guard to be too much of a scorer; the prototype, like Stockton, is supposed to think about passing and setting up his teammates for scoring. I'm not sure I'd call it a "spatial" category as much as a functional one. More recently, NBA references by players, coaches, and media, are often to the positions as designated by numbers: 1= point guard, 2 = shooting guard, 3 = "small" forward, 4 = power forward, 5 = center. This allows for evaluations of the form "He's not a true 1 because he likes to shoot, he's more of a 1 and a half" or "he's a 2.5". larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 8 21:28:19 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:28:19 -0500 Subject: in case you were wondering if "McJob" really, really IS a word... In-Reply-To: <12d.3687ad79.2d0637bb@aol.com> Message-ID: At 3:23 PM -0500 12/8/03, Robert Hartwell Fiske wrote: >It may be a word, but it's a miserable one. > In the eye of the beholder, I guess. I find it a witty and useful coinage myself. The nice thing about words is that in general nobody will force you to use one you don't like. If you choose to avoid referring to dead-end jobs with low salaries, few intrinsic rewards, and no opportunity for advancement "McJobs" and prefer instead to refer to them more elegantly as "dead-end jobs with low salaries, few intrinsic rewards, and no opportunity for advancement", far be it from me to object. larry From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Mon Dec 8 21:36:23 2003 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:36:23 -0800 Subject: for basketball fans Message-ID: >1978 N.Y. Times 16 Jan. C12/4 John Moore, a junior guard...played the >point in the zone defense that forced 19 Razorback turnovers. >Does this quotation indicate that John Moore is playing a position in >the zone defense referred to as the "point"? Yes. >or is he defending the >other team's point guard? No. He's the guy who brings the ball downcourt and can set up a play (back in the olden days, they would even hold up a finger to designate which play the team should run. I think that went out the window with the Bulls --just pass it to Jordan-- and the Jazz--everybody to one side, then Stockton to Malone). fritz From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Dec 8 21:40:48 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:40:48 -0500 Subject: in case you were wondering if "McJob" really, really IS a word... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 04:28:19PM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: > At 3:23 PM -0500 12/8/03, Robert Hartwell Fiske wrote: > >It may be a word, but it's a miserable one. > > > > In the eye of the beholder, I guess. I find it a witty and useful > coinage myself. The nice thing about words is that in general nobody > will force you to use one you don't like. If you choose to avoid > referring to dead-end jobs with low salaries, few intrinsic rewards, > and no opportunity for advancement "McJobs" and prefer instead to > refer to them more elegantly as "dead-end jobs with low salaries, few > intrinsic rewards, and no opportunity for advancement", far be it > from me to object. America is a great country, innit? JTS From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Mon Dec 8 21:50:17 2003 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:50:17 -0800 Subject: for basketball fans Message-ID: >More recently, NBA references by players, coaches, and media, are >often to the positions as designated by numbers: 1= point guard, 2 = >shooting guard, 3 = "small" forward, 4 = power forward, 5 = center. >This allows for evaluations of the form "He's not a true 1 because he >likes to shoot, he's more of a 1 and a half" or "he's a 2.5". >larry I think this renaming has gone a step further. A lot of my students don't even use the same terms that I do. They say 'point, post, and wing.' I'm not really sure what a 'wing' in b-ball is, but I think it's a small forward. Post is a center. For me, being of a different generation, 'post' refers to HOW a center plays, not the position itself. When a center plays post, he would be near the basket often with his back to the basket, so that he could either screen or do some fancy hook or turn-around jumper, or maybe pass the ball back out. The idea is that he would be immovable, like a post. American basketball lends itself perfectly to this style of play. There is nothing more frustrating than playing church league with a 7' European center. In international ball, the key is not a key, but a fan, so centers cannot play near the basket. Therefore, you get centers shooting 3 pointers and they typically cannot play post. Fritz From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 8 22:08:11 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 17:08:11 -0500 Subject: in case you were wondering if "McJob" really, really IS a word... In-Reply-To: <200312082140.hB8LenL06386@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > America is a great country, innit? Just to state the obvious: many people who enjoy language with creativity and flair consider "McJob" to be one of the great word-coinages of recent decades. The McDonald's Corporation wouldn't be so upset about the word if it didn't have a strong appeal. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU Mon Dec 8 22:24:53 2003 From: jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:24:53 -0600 Subject: squinny In-Reply-To: <0HPL00298K5PS0@smtp4.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: Is anyone familiar with the term "squinny" meaning a ground squirrel? All of our (scant) evidence is from Iowa. From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM Mon Dec 8 23:08:40 2003 From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 18:08:40 -0500 Subject: squinny Message-ID: My girlfriend is from Iowa and she and her parents use "squinny" in just this way. I have no evidence from any other state or region, but point out western PA "grinnie" as a parallel form. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 00:51:58 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 19:51:58 -0500 Subject: Point Guard (1971); Murderers' Row (May 1921) Message-ID: POINT GUARD (for basketball fans) The position of "point guard" was also called "playmaking guard" or "playmaker" or "passing guard" or "small guard." The other guard was/is the "shooting guard" or "big guard." The LOS ANGELES TIMES covered the great John Wooden-coached UCLA teams and might have "point guard" in the late 1960s. 16 March 1968, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 34, col. 1: Rookie Walt Frazier and Dick Barnett are a happy blend of playmaking and shooting in the backcourt. 18 December 1971, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 6, col. 2: The point guard is Harold Fox, one of the premier backcourt stars in the country. 16 December 1972, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 10, col. 4: Sophomore Baron Hill (21.0 scoring as frosh) is the point guard. (...) Brothers John (senior) and T. Jay (junior) Pecorak will be starting with point guard Mike Sorrentino, all with experience. --------------------------------------------------------------- MURDERERS' ROW The revised OED has a September 1921 "murderers' row" for the New York Yankees. It's a crime. 5 May 1921, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 1, col. 1: _Yankee Pitching All to Bad, but Slump of_ _Murderers' Row Shares Blame_ _In Run of Defeats_ From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 01:13:26 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:13:26 -0500 Subject: Point Guard (1971); Murderers' Row (May 1921) In-Reply-To: <12D27679.2D60916F.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > The revised OED has a September 1921 "murderers' row" for the New > York Yankees. It's a crime. > > 5 May 1921, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 1, col. 1: > _Yankee Pitching All to Bad, but Slump of_ > _Murderers' Row Shares Blame_ > _In Run of Defeats_ Here's earlier from ProQuest: 1918 _Wash. Post_ 5 July 8 Eddie's lusty swipe along with the Yankee boxman's hectic heave were very much needed, as "Murderer's Row" showed before the crowd was able to make for the exits. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Dec 9 01:41:54 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:41:54 -0500 Subject: "Murderer's Row" non-Yankee-1905 Message-ID: Ha! I speet on your Yankees! They stole the term. RHDAS has an 1858 cite, supposedly. Dickson's Baseball Dictionary tells about that early cite, but I'm not sure if it's real or not. >From Ancestry.com, with a quick, down-and-dirty search, we get, from the Washington Post, April 24, 1905, page 8, col. 6, the following: <> So, Fred, there's your Yale connection. Six degrees of separation from Fred Shapiro. :) Of course, the player in question, assuming it was Billy Lush, played for Cleveland in 1904(his last season) and had a lifetime batting average of .249. No doubt he should have been a memeber of "manslaughterer's row" instead of full-bore murderer's row. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 01:45:42 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:45:42 -0500 Subject: No "I" in "Team" (1964) Message-ID: A sports "teamwork" cliche. There's no letter "I" in the word "team." So? Take the "L" out of "lover" and it's "over." Big deal? "No 'I' in 'team'" has 14,500 Google hits. I...er, the team here..checked THE SPORTING NEWS. (PAPER OF RECORD) 24 December 1966, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 21, col. 5: As for the loss of Sandy Koufax, Ron (Hunt--ed.) added, "We still have a good team. It takes teamwork and you can't spell 'team' with an 'I'." (PROQUEST) 'Every Boy Is Taught to Swim' By Ed Rumill Chief Sports Columnist of The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jul 18, 1964. p. 6 (1 page): Teamwork, cooperation, and physical fitness are stressed. Such signs as "If you don't play to win, why keep score?" and "There's no I in team," hang from bunkhouse rafters to constantly remind boys of the importance of teamwork. Sports of The Times HARVEY ARATON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 25, 2000. p. D1 (1 page): For Parcells--who typically embraced the maxim that there is no I in team, only Bill--the strange turn of events that has beclouded the Jets can best be described as wickedly ironic, and better make that with a capital I. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 02:23:48 2003 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:23:48 EST Subject: Cowboy lingo Message-ID: In a message dated 12/6/03 12:04:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: > There are a lot of terms Curly's poem which are idiosyncratic to cowboys at > least to my knowledge. > > A few: > learned to tighten his reins > center-fire saddle There is also a "rim-fire saddle". "Spanish rig means that the rigging rings that caught the girth or cinch that held the saddle on were located on the front of the saddle, right and left, directly below the horn. Center-fire means the rings were placed at the middle of the sides of the tree, a style so much preferred by Californians that it also was known as the California rig The Anglo-Americans...improved [the Mexican stock saddle]...by doubling the rigigging . The saddle with two cinches was called a double-rigged or rim-fire saddle, and it came to be the Texas favorite." Foster-Harris _The Look of the Old West_ New York: Viking, 1955, no ISBN, pp 240ff. The terms "center-fire" and "rim-fire" are by analogy with center-fire (primer in the center of the base) and rim-fire (primer all around the rim of the base) metallic cartridges, which were developed during the Civil War. As far as I know, cowboys were the only people to use the terms "center-fire" and "rim-fire" to refer to saddles, although I don't doubt both types of saddles are still being made today. Incidentally, a metallic cartridge is an oxymoron, since etymologically a "cartridge" is a bullet (or shot, or buck-and-ball which is both) plus powder wrapped in PAPER ("cart"). > I do not know about grammar but I ain't a grammarian. Your grammar is fine, and she says you forgot her birthday. > One thing cowboys are noted for is their poetry. Perhaps this is due to the > loneliness of ranch life -- I can vouch for this since I spent a couple of > years living on a small ranch a few miles outside Noplace, Arkansas which is > about ten miles outside Plumb Lost -- but for many many years The Western > Horseman has published poetry and today there are many cowboy poetry get > togethers in different areas of the US. The best known cowboy poet these > days is Baxter Black but in earlier days there were Curly, of course, > Haywire Mac McClintock Haywire Mac is famous as a hobo poet. Was he also a cowboy poet? Now for a note on the terms "cowpuncher" and "cowpoke". In some long-forgotten book I read that both were terms for a man who rode on the outside of a cattle car poking at the cows inside with a pole so that they would get exercise or something. It was an unskilled dead-end job, even by 19th century standards, but it had one fringe benefit---a man could sign on at Dodge City or other cattle drive point and get paid to ride to Chicago (presumably paid enough to afford the return trip, unless it was included in the job). So many cowboys took a turn at cowpunching just to get to see the big city that "cowpuncher" or "cowpoke" became synonymous with "cowboy". Does anybody know if this story be true? Off-topic: MSNBC News today says that the term "In like Flynn" originated to describe how the actor Error Flynn emerged unscathed from a potentially career-destroying scandal. Correct? Somehow it sounds to me like an etymythology. - James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Dec 9 02:32:58 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:32:58 -0500 Subject: In like Flynn Message-ID: Here's Unca Cecil's take on it. http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_156.html I haven't searched our archives for an update. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "James A. Landau" To: Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:23 PM Subject: Re: Cowboy lingo > Off-topic: MSNBC News today says that the term "In like Flynn" originated to > describe how the actor Error Flynn emerged unscathed from a potentially > career-destroying scandal. Correct? Somehow it sounds to me like an etymythology. > > > - James A. Landau > systems engineer > FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) > Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA > From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Dec 9 02:43:23 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:43:23 -0500 Subject: In Like Flynn (Was: Cowboy lingo) Message-ID: That's a persistent rumor, demolished by Barry's work. Flynn was charged with statutory rape in 1942, while "in like Flynn" goes back at least to 1940. The most likely explanation is simply that it's rhyming slang; the counterpart, as shown by a 1943 citation also found by Barry, is "out like Stout." Even though "in like Flynn" did not derive from the Errol Flynn trial, there is anecdotal evidence, presented in The Straight Dope, that the association was early and contributed to the phrase's popularity. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:24 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Cowboy lingo Off-topic: MSNBC News today says that the term "In like Flynn" originated to describe how the actor Error Flynn emerged unscathed from a potentially career-destroying scandal. Correct? Somehow it sounds to me like an etymythology. - James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From pds at VISI.COM Tue Dec 9 03:25:46 2003 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:25:46 -0600 Subject: Bob-key In-Reply-To: <20031208150410.DE4706745@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Thanks, George. Catalog item B-2740 (in the linked .pdf below) is undoubtedly the dispenser I found in the stall. And if you follow the links to the replacement parts list, you'll find part #24-17 BOBKEY (no hyphen). Now one might suppose that the "bob" in "bobkey" is derived from the company name "Bobrick", on the model of "McMuffin (tm)", but I can find no other catalog items or parts named with a "bob" prefix. So I'm still wondering if "bob" is doing any descriptive work here, or if that's just what it's called. --Tom Kysilko At 12/8/2003 10:04 AM -0500, GSCole wrote: >The bob key is probably an item from the corporation Bobrick Washroom >Equipment, Inc. (North Hollywood, CA), a maker of washroom equipment. > >http://www.bobrick.com/ > >Their catalog notes that the "theft resistant spindle" may be "removed >with special key furnished"... >http://www.bobrick.com/Literature/downloads/ttdispenser.pdf > >Cannot find 'bob key' as a mention on their site. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 03:38:41 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 22:38:41 -0500 Subject: Point Guard (1971); Murderers' Row (May 1921) In-Reply-To: <12D27679.2D60916F.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > 18 December 1971, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 6, col. 2: > The point guard is Harold Fox, one of the premier backcourt stars in the country. Here's earlier from ProQuest: 1970 _N.Y. Times_ 3 Dec. 80 "We have no such things as guards, forwards and centers in our 1-3-1 offense," said Tom Wasdin, Jacksonville's new coach, yesterday. "At least we don't call them by those names. We classify our players by the kind of job we want them to do and when we recruit, we look for point guards, wings and postmen. "A point guard is a new name for the old-fashioned playmaker," the Dolphin coach continued. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From t_wolf at ANGELFIRE.COM Tue Dec 9 12:05:30 2003 From: t_wolf at ANGELFIRE.COM (Thomas Wolf) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:05:30 +0100 Subject: "Crabs and ice water" Message-ID: I have recently come across the expression "crabs and ice water". I first encountered it on the "Word Detective" page (column from Nov. 17), however, the origin and precise meaning of this phrase were not explained there. I got curious and searched myself. Here are the meager results: 1. "everything else is blue skies, crabs and ice water". From Massachusetts. 2. "...he had hard crabs and ice water; he probably had a heart condition". From Baltimore, Maryland. 3. "Crabs in ice water, that's all I ever get". From Massachusetts. 4. "(in response to "What's for supper?) Crabs and ice water". From Massachusetts. 5. "Crabs on ice water! If you don?t give me my money back, I?ll..." From Rhode Island/SE Massachusetts. 6. Print Source: John Irving, "Trying to save Peggy Sneed", Paperback edition, Ballantine Books 1997; ISBN 0-345-40474-2 p. 325: They skirted the truck traffic around Cleveland before Cleveland could get them in its foul grasp; they left behind them the feeling that the morning rush hour was angry it just missed them. "Columbus, South", said a sign, but the driver snorted with scorn and sailed up the west ramp of the Ohio Turnpike. "Crabs in ice water to you, Columbus" he said. When you've come through anight of well-controlled tension and you're underway in the morning with that feeling of a headstart advantage on the rest of the world, even Ohio seems possible -- even Toledo appears to be just a short sprint away. "Lunch in Toledo!" the driver announced, with... From New Hampshire/Massachusetts. 7. http://www.citypaper.com/2000-12-06/mail.html "...that guy probably never had hard crabs and Natty Boh." From Baltimore. (This one is to be taken literally; "Natty Boh" is "National Bohemian" beer. The whole phrase describes someone from out of town.) That's all I found! It seems to me that "crabs and/in ice water" can have two usages: - as an expletive, as in #5 and #6 - "nothing", "[something] worthless" as in #1, #3, #4 #2 is the only one using "hard crabs", and uses the phrase differently. I'd like to know more about that expression. Did I get the meaning right? Is this a regional saying (maybe from Massachusetts)? What are the crabs: crustaceans or crabapples? What's the origin? And what about the "hard crabs" version? -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Thomas Wolf e-mail: t_wolf at angelfire.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 14:59:17 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:59:17 -0500 Subject: Point Guard (1971) In-Reply-To: <12D27679.2D60916F.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 7:51 PM -0500 12/8/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >POINT GUARD (for basketball fans) > > The position of "point guard" was also called "playmaking guard" >or "playmaker" or "passing guard" or "small guard." > The other guard was/is the "shooting guard" or "big guard." > The LOS ANGELES TIMES covered the great John Wooden-coached UCLA >teams and might have "point guard" in the late 1960s. > If they do, Mike Warren (who later was one of the stars on NBC's Hill Street Blues) would be the name to check. He was the 5'11" point guard (as it would be called now, and may have been then) on the three-peat UCLA champions in 1966-67 through 1968-69 that still holds the record for its 88 game winning streak. This was the team led by Lew Alcindor (before he became Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) and also featured an excellent shooting guard, Lucius Allen. But it was Warren who was referred to as "the coach on the floor" (which has always been one of the roles of the point guard) and was frequently mentioned later by Coach Wooden as his favorite player. (I was there at the time, which is how I remember this stuff. I was even in an African history class with Alcindor.) larry From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 9 15:03:03 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:03:03 -0500 Subject: Point Guard; "point" itself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 09:59:17AM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: > > I was even in an African history class with Alcindor.) We're not worthy! We're not worthy! Anyway. There have been some interesting comments on the use of _point guard_ in this thread but I wonder if anyone could comment on one of the original questions, which is the use of _point_ itself? Anything to say about the meaning, or any early cites for the lone _point_? Jesse Sheidlower OED From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 15:29:37 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:29:37 -0500 Subject: for basketball fans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:50 PM -0800 12/8/03, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > >More recently, NBA references by players, coaches, and media, are >>often to the positions as designated by numbers: 1= point guard, 2 = >>shooting guard, 3 = "small" forward, 4 = power forward, 5 = center. >>This allows for evaluations of the form "He's not a true 1 because he >>likes to shoot, he's more of a 1 and a half" or "he's a 2.5". >>larry >I think this renaming has gone a step further. A lot of my students >don't even use the same terms that I do. They say 'point, post, and >wing.' I'm not really sure what a 'wing' in b-ball is, but I think >it's a small forward. or a shooting guard, if these are the only choices >Post is a center. For me, being of a different generation, 'post' >refers to HOW a center plays, not the position itself. When a center >plays post, he would be near the basket often with his back to the >basket, so that he could either screen or do some fancy hook or >turn-around jumper, or maybe pass the ball back out. In some dialects, this is a low post, as distinguished from a high post who plays further out. "Low post" is also the position as well as the player, and as such it can also be called the block. There's also the verb, "to post up", which allows both intransitive and transitive uses and applies to guards (even point guards like Mark Jackson, and certainly to shooting guards like Michael Jordan and now Tracy McGrady or Vince Carter) as well as to bigger players (forwards and centers). The reference is basically to inside, near-the-basket play. A post-up move is an offensive ploy wherein the player positions him (or her) self near the basket, seals off the defensive player, and backs or fronts in for a relatively high percentage shot. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 15:36:11 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:36:11 -0500 Subject: Point Guard; "point" itself? In-Reply-To: <20031209150303.GA7550@panix.com> Message-ID: > >Anyway. There have been some interesting comments on the >use of _point guard_ in this thread but I wonder if anyone >could comment on one of the original questions, which is >the use of _point_ itself? Anything to say about the meaning, >or any early cites for the lone _point_? > I'm assuming, without evidence, that this was a positional reference to an area of the court behind and to the side of the free throw line, where the point guard (not yet so called) positioned himself by default to begin the passing process that eventuated in getting his team a good shot. This would have pre-dated the 24 second clock in the NBA and the corresponding time limit later adopted in college, so that set offenses would have been more frequent and positions on the court more stable. Why that particular area would have been called the point I have no idea. Is there an analogy with hockey, a game about which I know very little? Any Canadians out there? larry From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 9 15:42:12 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:42:12 -0500 Subject: Point Guard; "point" itself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 10:36:11AM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: > > I'm assuming, without evidence, that this was a positional reference > to an area of the court behind and to the side of the free throw > line, where the point guard (not yet so called) positioned himself by > default to begin the passing process that eventuated in getting his > team a good shot. This would have pre-dated the 24 second clock in > the NBA and the corresponding time limit later adopted in college, so > that set offenses would have been more frequent and positions on the > court more stable. Why that particular area would have been called > the point I have no idea. Is there an analogy with hockey, a game > about which I know very little? Any Canadians out there? I'm not Canadian, but the "point" in hockey is either of two positions in front of the opposing team's blue line and near each edge fo the rink, where players on offense are often positioned. This sense dates to at least the 1950s. No idea how it might relate to the basketball sense. Jesse Sheidlower OED From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 15:42:17 2003 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:42:17 -0500 Subject: Point Guard; "point" itself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >> >>Anyway. There have been some interesting comments on the >>use of _point guard_ in this thread but I wonder if anyone >>could comment on one of the original questions, which is >>the use of _point_ itself? Anything to say about the meaning, >>or any early cites for the lone _point_? >> >I'm assuming, without evidence, that this was a positional reference >to an area of the court behind and to the side of the free throw >line, where the point guard (not yet so called) positioned himself by >default to begin the passing process that eventuated in getting his >team a good shot. This would have pre-dated the 24 second clock in >the NBA and the corresponding time limit later adopted in college, so >that set offenses would have been more frequent and positions on the >court more stable. Why that particular area would have been called >the point I have no idea. Is there an analogy with hockey, a game >about which I know very little? Any Canadians out there? Hey, you don't have to be Canadian to know hockey! In hockey, the player on point on a power play (when the other team is penalized), plays just inside the blue line in the offensive zone. His job is to keep the puck inside the zone and to feed it to players nearer the crease (the hockey equivalent of the paint in basketball) who, in the ideal case, will score. The prototypical point player is a defenseman, but occasionally a playmaking winger will take some shifts at point; the downside of this is that frequent defensive breakdowns occur, resulting in a short-handed goal for the other team! "Point" can be used to refer to the role *or* to the position on the ice in which the player filling that role is typically stationed. For a reasonable-looking diagram showing the position and the layout of the ice, see . -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 16:02:53 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:02:53 EST Subject: Antedating of "A.A." Message-ID: I looked through the 4th edition of a book called ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS that was first published in April 1939. On page 163 I find this at the beginning of the second paragraph break: "We know of an A.A. member who was living in a large community. ..." I believe if you check the first edition, you will find the identical wording. This seems to push back the antedating of "A.A." for the organization to 1939. I suspect that early A.A. literature -- possibly even the book itself -- might push the date for the use of "A.A." to designate members (as opposed to the organization) to 1939 as well. In a message dated 11/13/03 7:32:43 AM, fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: > A.A. (OED 1943 for organization, 1941 for members) > > 1940 _Washington Star_ 5 May in _Alcoholics Anonymous 1939-1942_ > Attention was drawn to the movement recently by a dinner that John D. > Rockefeller, jr. ... gave for 60 A.A.s at the Union Club in New York. > > 1940 _Richmond Times-Dispatch_ 18 July in _Alcoholics Anonymous 1939-1942_ > This is a common characteristic of any A.A. meeting. > > Fred Shapiro > From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 16:06:52 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:06:52 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Twelve=20Steps"?= Message-ID: This most likely also appears in the 1939 book ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS; at least, that is where the 12 steps were first published (see pp. 58ff. of the 4th edition). In a message dated 11/13/03 7:38:50 AM, fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: > twelve steps (not in OED) > > 1940 _Richmond Times-Dispatch_ 18 July in _Alcoholics Anonymous 1939-1932_ > 12-Point Program? These are the 12 steps Alcoholics Anonymous recommends > as a program of recovery for the alcoholic. > > 1940 _Chicago Sunday Times_ 1 Dec. in _Alcoholics Anonymous 1939-1942_ > (heading) THE 12 STEPS. > > Fred Shapiro > From stevekl at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 9 16:08:44 2003 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:08:44 -0500 Subject: "at" at the end of a where phrase In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031207115657.00ad2f88@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > I too had a teacher who taught us how to analyze Latin-based words (a > useful tool I wish my grad students had), do library research and write > decent papers (another skill often lacking), and appreciate good > literature. But when she tore down a sign at a bake sale during a > basketball game because it said "Boughten Cookies," she shamed us and our > origins. It was years later, of course, that I learned 'boughten' is a > common Northern participial adjective and felt vindicated. Michigander that I am, I never even knew boughten was considered regional until I became a lexicographer. It had never even crossed my mind that it might be a regionalism. Growing up, there was homemade bread, and there was boughten bread, and that was that. From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 16:47:25 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:47:25 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20squinny?= Message-ID: In a message dated 12/8/03 6:09:05 PM, MAdams1448 at AOL.COM writes: > My girlfriend is from Iowa and she and her parents use "squinny" in just > this way.? I have no evidence from any other state or region, but point out > western PA "grinnie" as a parallel form. > I am from EASTERN Iowa and have never heard of a squinny [meaning a ground squirrel]. I believe that MAdams's contact is from Western Iowa, where of course everybody talks funny, especially parents and lawyers. From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 16:52:31 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:52:31 EST Subject: a miserable word? Message-ID: What the heck is a "miserable word," anyway? Is there a scale of misery for words, or is lexiocographical misery absolute? In a message dated 12/8/03 3:23:58 PM, Vocabula at AOL.COM writes: > It may be a word, but it's a miserable one. > From abigail.zitin at OUP.COM Tue Dec 9 16:55:58 2003 From: abigail.zitin at OUP.COM (Zitin, Abigail) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:55:58 -0500 Subject: Point Guard; "point" itself? Message-ID: > I'm assuming, without evidence, that this was a positional reference > to an area of the court behind and to the side of the free throw > line, where the point guard (not yet so called) positioned himself by > default to begin the passing process that eventuated in getting his > team a good shot. Which makes sense, except that so far I have no evidence for this, and database-searching for "point" is close to impossible. The evidence I do have indicates that "point guard" preceded lone "point", which leads me to assume that the latter was shortened from the former. Two pieces of evidence support this reading, to my mind: (1) the fact that Webster's Sports Dict., in 1976, defines "point" as "a player position" rather than an area of the court (although this is muddied somewhat by the fact that it defines hockey "point" in similar terms) (2) the quotation posted by Fred Shapiro last night, from proquest: 1970 _N.Y. Times_ 3 Dec. 80 "We have no such things as guards, forwards and centers in our 1-3-1 offense," said Tom Wasdin, Jacksonville's new coach, yesterday. "At least we don't call them by those names. We classify our players by the kind of job we want them to do and when we recruit, we look for point guards, wings and postmen. "A point guard is a new name for the old-fashioned playmaker," the Dolphin coach continued. "He's our quarterback, our key ball-handler, our most consistent player and a good outside shot" Nowhere in the article in question does it indicate that the point guard is so called because he occupies an area of the court called "the point". But this is negative evidence, and it only feeds speculation. So: which came first, the point guard or the point? The latter would imply that lone "point" is indeed spatial; the former, that it is functional. I would be most grateful for evidence supporting either of these claims. Abigail Zitin OED From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 16:55:24 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:55:24 EST Subject: recockulous Message-ID: Is the slang use of RECOCKULOUS (meaning 'ridiculolus') widespread, or does one only hear this in the North Carolina Triangle among college students? (Would RECOCKULOUS qualify as a "miserable word"?) From Vocabula at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 17:23:57 2003 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:23:57 EST Subject: a miserable word? Message-ID: Say, Ron, could you more easily understand what a miserable mind is? Perhaps so. Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review www.vocabula.com ______________________ The Vocabula Review A measly $8.95 a year www.vocabula.com ______________________ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 United States Tel: (781) 861-1515 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 17:38:08 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:38:08 -0500 Subject: a miserable word? In-Reply-To: <112.2c56cca9.2d0757cf@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:52 AM -0500 12/9/03, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >What the heck is a "miserable word," anyway? Is there a scale of misery for >words, or is lexiocographical misery absolute? Well, if it concerns a portmanteau item (a category that might stretch to include "McJob"), Humpty Dumpty would point out that Mr. Fiske may wish to consider the lexical form in question to be mimsy, which in his deconstruction of Jabberwocky he derived from "miserable" + "flimsy". ("MIMSY: it's not just for borogoves anymore!") Actually, as I recall my first summer job flipping burgers and hot dogs at a beach-front refreshment stand, the job itself was more miserable + flimsy than any lexical descriptor could be. larry > >In a message dated 12/8/03 3:23:58 PM, Vocabula at AOL.COM writes: > > >> It may be a word, but it's a miserable one. >> From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Tue Dec 9 17:55:58 2003 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:55:58 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re:_squinny?= In-Reply-To: <1e6.150d65a4.2d07569d@aol.com> Message-ID: Must be the Northern/Midland division at work again. (Just kidding--though as a Minnesotan I've never heard the word either.) At 11:47 AM 12/9/2003 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 12/8/03 6:09:05 PM, MAdams1448 at AOL.COM writes: > > > > My girlfriend is from Iowa and she and her parents use "squinny" in just > > this way. I have no evidence from any other state or region, but point > out > > western PA "grinnie" as a parallel form. > > > >I am from EASTERN Iowa and have never heard of a squinny [meaning a ground >squirrel]. I believe that MAdams's contact is from Western Iowa, where of >course >everybody talks funny, especially parents and lawyers. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 18:32:06 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:32:06 EST Subject: Peking Dust (1923); OT: I almost die Message-ID: OT: I ALMOST DIE It was going to be a day of work like any other day. Maybe it would be another 8:30 a.m. to 9:30 p.m. monster like I had last week. Why I do parking tickets and earn nothing at all for research is another story. It snowed in New York City all weekend; they generally didn't issue parking tickets (for street cleaning), but you usually get your "angle parking" and "traffic lane" tickets associated with the snow. I worked in the Bronx, in the building with the permanently barred fire exits. (This was banned in New York 90 years ago after the Triangle factory fire.) I was assigned the room with no air, formerly occupied by my best friend (who was fired this summer). I usually get sick in that room--you'd get sick in any room for 13 hours--and I was getting sick after the first few minutes. Someone came around: "You have to leave now." "Why?" "There's a fire." There's a fire? There are no alarms? There's a fire--pass it on?? The building with barred emergency exits has a fire--with me in it! We all got out. The fire department came. After about ten minutes, we were told to get back in the building. There was no fire--just smoke! The public, however, wasn't allowed back in. Why were we allowed back in but not the public? Surely, someone cares about us, too? We hung around a little while and... THEN THERE WAS AN EXPLOSION! We left the building again. The manhole cover just outside the building--where I had been standing moments before--had burst into flames from a gas explosion. I decided to go home, type this, and do some quiet library work on "point guard." Now, about "growler" that appeared in Safire's column last Sunday. Yes, I've been "growling" that I work in a Triangle Factory workplace for some time. I almost died there today. But before Safire wrote that, he should have spent some time with me this past Thanksgiving. I would have liked to have introduced him to my mother and father, but they both died of horrible diseases. They would never see my name mentioned in his column. Safire could have met my nephew with autism. We were Thanksgiving guests at someone's West End Avenue apartment. My nephew went out the door and broke into other apartments. Before Safire called me a "growler," maybe he could have seen to it that his New York Times kindly published the 1920s "Big Apple" columns I had told him about--something that should have been done twelve years ago. I still wait for that. Going through what I've been through is horrible, and being insulted is worse. Then there's today, when New York City almost killed me! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GRINNY/SQUINNY No "squinny," but here's a "grinny." (See DARE for "grinnie.") 26 August 1930, CHARLESTON DAILY MAIL (Charleston, West Virginia), pg.10, col. 6: Buster started after a grinny that scrambled off a log at their approach. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------PEKING DUST WANDERING IN NORTHERN CHINA by Harry A. Franck New York: The Century Company 1923 Yes, there are still a few Harry Franck books to go through, but I've done most. See "Peking Dust" in the ADS-L archives. Pg. 184: There is that infamous "Peking dust," a wall of glaced fruits enclosing a mound of grated chestnuts of exactly the consistency, though by no means the splendid taste, of sawdust, and doted on, unfortunately, by that member of the family with most influence in the kitchen. From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Tue Dec 9 18:03:39 2003 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:03:39 -0500 Subject: boughten bread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm glad to know the word is still alive and well--you're a lot younger than I am! At 11:08 AM 12/9/2003 -0500, you wrote: >On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > > > I too had a teacher who taught us how to analyze Latin-based words (a > > useful tool I wish my grad students had), do library research and write > > decent papers (another skill often lacking), and appreciate good > > literature. But when she tore down a sign at a bake sale during a > > basketball game because it said "Boughten Cookies," she shamed us and our > > origins. It was years later, of course, that I learned 'boughten' is a > > common Northern participial adjective and felt vindicated. > >Michigander that I am, I never even knew boughten was considered regional >until I became a lexicographer. It had never even crossed my mind that it >might be a regionalism. Growing up, there was homemade bread, and there >was boughten bread, and that was that. From self at TOWSE.COM Tue Dec 9 18:51:37 2003 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:51:37 -0800 Subject: "Spam rage" Message-ID: The phrase was apparently (according to this article ) coined at least by 1996, but is now getting new legs in articles about Charles Booher, the man recently charged with emailing death threats to DM Contact Management of Victoria, Canada, who, he claims, was spamming him with penis enlargement ads. -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 9 18:50:03 2003 From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:50:03 -0800 Subject: Any Tolkien experts out there? Message-ID: Can anyone help this gentleman out? Please respond directly to him. Geoff Nunberg >Hi Dr. Nunberg: >I work for the cable network Tech TV, and we're producing an >upcoming special on the Lord of the Rings --Return of the King >Movie. I'm producing a piece on the languages Tolkien created for >his books, and wondering if you knew much about him or knew of >someone who might. Many thanks for any help you may provide. >Best, > >***************************** >Andy Jordan >Segment Producer >News/Tech TV >650 Townsend Street 5090L >San Francisco, CA 94103 >office: 415.355.4352 >fax: 415.355.4480 >cell: 415.948.6530 >cell2: 415.297.6999 >andrewjordan at techtvcorp.com >techtv.com >techlive.com >**************************************************************************** >ABOUT TECH TV >TechTV is the cable network that showcases the smart, edgy and >unexpected side of technology. By telling stories through the prism >of technology, TechTV intrigues viewers with everything from help >and information to cutting-edge documentaries to outrageous >late-night fun. TechTV viewers are highly interactive and passionate >about engaging in the television experience and log a monthly >average of 1.4 million unique visits to techtv.com. Owned by Vulcan >Inc., TechTV is currently available in 40 million homes in the U.S. >and distributes content to more than 70 countries. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 19:04:24 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 14:04:24 -0500 Subject: Point Guard; "point" itself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Laurence Horn said: >>> >>>Anyway. There have been some interesting comments on the >>>use of _point guard_ in this thread but I wonder if anyone >>>could comment on one of the original questions, which is >>>the use of _point_ itself? Anything to say about the meaning, >>>or any early cites for the lone _point_? >>> >>I'm assuming, without evidence, that this was a positional reference >>to an area of the court behind and to the side of the free throw >>line, where the point guard (not yet so called) positioned himself by >>default to begin the passing process that eventuated in getting his >>team a good shot. This would have pre-dated the 24 second clock in >>the NBA and the corresponding time limit later adopted in college, so >>that set offenses would have been more frequent and positions on the >>court more stable. Why that particular area would have been called >>the point I have no idea. Is there an analogy with hockey, a game >>about which I know very little? Any Canadians out there? > >Hey, you don't have to be Canadian to know hockey! no, but it helps > >In hockey, the player on point on a power play (when the other team >is penalized), plays just inside the blue line in the offensive zone. >His job is to keep the puck inside the zone and to feed it to players >nearer the crease (the hockey equivalent of the paint in basketball) >who, in the ideal case, will score. The prototypical point player is >a defenseman, but occasionally a playmaking winger will take some >shifts at point; the downside of this is that frequent defensive >breakdowns occur, resulting in a short-handed goal for the other >team! "Point" can be used to refer to the role *or* to the position >on the ice in which the player filling that role is typically >stationed. For a reasonable-looking diagram showing the position and >the layout of the ice, see >. Thanks; whatever the actual history, the semantic/referential relationship between the hockey point and the basketball point makes it plausible that the latter could have been derived from the former, which is not to say that it was. larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 19:07:45 2003 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 14:07:45 -0500 Subject: Point Guard; "point" itself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >>Laurence Horn said: >>>> >>>>Anyway. There have been some interesting comments on the >>>>use of _point guard_ in this thread but I wonder if anyone >>>>could comment on one of the original questions, which is >>>>the use of _point_ itself? Anything to say about the meaning, >>>>or any early cites for the lone _point_? >>>> >>>I'm assuming, without evidence, that this was a positional reference >>>to an area of the court behind and to the side of the free throw >>>line, where the point guard (not yet so called) positioned himself by >>>default to begin the passing process that eventuated in getting his >>>team a good shot. This would have pre-dated the 24 second clock in >>>the NBA and the corresponding time limit later adopted in college, so >>>that set offenses would have been more frequent and positions on the >>>court more stable. Why that particular area would have been called >>>the point I have no idea. Is there an analogy with hockey, a game >>>about which I know very little? Any Canadians out there? >> >>Hey, you don't have to be Canadian to know hockey! > >no, but it helps > >> >>In hockey, the player on point on a power play (when the other team >>is penalized), plays just inside the blue line in the offensive zone. >>His job is to keep the puck inside the zone and to feed it to players >>nearer the crease (the hockey equivalent of the paint in basketball) >>who, in the ideal case, will score. The prototypical point player is >>a defenseman, but occasionally a playmaking winger will take some >>shifts at point; the downside of this is that frequent defensive >>breakdowns occur, resulting in a short-handed goal for the other >>team! "Point" can be used to refer to the role *or* to the position >>on the ice in which the player filling that role is typically >>stationed. For a reasonable-looking diagram showing the position and >>the layout of the ice, see >>. > >Thanks; whatever the actual history, the semantic/referential >relationship between the hockey point and the basketball point makes >it plausible that the latter could have been derived from the former, >which is not to say that it was. Well, basketball *was* invented by a Canadian! -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Dec 9 20:00:34 2003 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:00:34 -0800 Subject: a miserable word? In-Reply-To: <200312090852.1atL6A1GE3NZFl40@penguin> Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM >Subject: a miserable word? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >What the heck is a "miserable word," anyway? Is there a scale of misery for >words, or is lexiocographical misery absolute? Perhaps they have a group to go to -- Near us there's a Noah's Bagels Support Group and I had no idea that bagels had issues prior to that. Rima From tcpurnell at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Tue Dec 9 20:07:54 2003 From: tcpurnell at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (THOMAS C PURNELL) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 14:07:54 -0600 Subject: recockulous Message-ID: Ron, (Since I've never figured out how to reply to the group, I'll just send this directly to you.) While in LA this past June, my brother-in-law asked me if RECOCKULOUS was a word. I had never heard of it, but he said one of his friends was using it a lot. I remember this because I've been thinking that it was just some goofy term his friend had made up. --tom. ----- Original Message ----- From: RonButters at AOL.COM Date: Tuesday, December 9, 2003 10:55 am Subject: recockulous > Is the slang use of RECOCKULOUS (meaning 'ridiculolus') > widespread, or does > one only hear this in the North Carolina Triangle among college > students? > (Would RECOCKULOUS qualify as a "miserable word"?) > From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 20:32:45 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:32:45 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20recockulous?= Message-ID: In a message dated 12/9/03 3:19:28 PM, tcpurnell at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU writes: > Ron, > > (Since I've never figured out how to reply to the group, I'll just send this > directly to you.) > > While in LA this past June, my brother-in-law asked me if RECOCKULOUS was a > word. I had never heard of it, but he said one of his friends was using it a > lot. I remember this because I've been thinking that it was just some goofy > term his friend had made up. > > --tom. > Thanks. I'm hoping to hear from Connie Eble and the other experts on slang to see how widespread this is. But if you heard it in LA and I heard it in NC, that indicates a pretty good spread! From jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM Tue Dec 9 21:07:00 2003 From: jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM (James Callan) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:07:00 -0800 Subject: recockulous In-Reply-To: <200312092033.hB9KXFBM010894@drizzle.com> Message-ID: I'm pretty sure Adam Corolla, who cohosted "Loveline" on radio and TV, claims that he coined the word. Basically, if something is so absurd that it goes beyond ridiculous, it's ricockulous. (Or recockulous.) A Loveline-related website gives more details: "Say "ridiculous" on Loveline and Adam will be quick to say "It's what?" The correct response would be "RECOCKULOUS!" Adam invented this word simply replacing the "dic" with "cock." Something that is recockulous is even more extreme than ridiculous. Add it to your vocabulary, your spell checker, spread the word!" http://www.edgetulsa.com/edge_site/loveline.html No word on when he first used the term, but I heard him use it on the radio show at least two or three years ago. Bonus slang term from the same page: behymen. "Behind+hymen=behymen. The behymen is to butt as hymen is to vagina. Get it? If you have lost your behymen you have been done in the butt. Adam often asks callers who are gay or say they have been gay curious or if it pertains to a women's question, if they have lost their behymen." -- James Callan From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Tue Dec 9 21:56:56 2003 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:56:56 -0500 Subject: for basketball fans Message-ID: <> Within athletic jargon, is transitive "defend" used any more with the thing protected as a direct object (e.g., defend the goal)? Has "defend" + (aggressor as direct object) replaced "defend against" in general usage (e.g., The White House today defended Democratic criticism)? Se?n Fitzpatrick From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM Wed Dec 10 00:15:41 2003 From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:15:41 -0500 Subject: recockulous Message-ID: A lawyer friend of mine from Western Iowa, recalls using recockulous while in College at USC; they talk funny there too. From jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM Wed Dec 10 00:28:10 2003 From: jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM (James Callan) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:28:10 -0800 Subject: Childfree Message-ID: "Childfree" seems to be a relatively new term for people who have chosen not to have children. "Childless" would be used for people who don't have children but are unable to, while "childfree" describes those who are happy to be non-parents. I was wondering how old "childfree" is. A search of Google groups turns up two uses between 1981 and 1990. The first, in 1985, is probably not being used in the same way: "Speaking as one who as a teenager maintained his parents' pool, I think they're more work than they're worth; others (especially childfree couples) don't want to have every kid in the neighborhood trying to wangle an invitation, or (worse) trying to sneak in." The other, in 1990, is in quotes, and is closer to the current definition: I respect you and your wives decision to remain "childfree." I feel that many couples are doing this nowadays. After that, there's 1 use in 1991, 6 in 1992, 51 in 1993, 66 in 1994, 342 in 1995, and 798 in 1996. At some point that year, the group alt.support.childfree is created, and every year after that shows 319,000 mentions (319,000 seems to be Google's default number for "a lot.") Does anyone know if the word was coined by anyone in particular? Or why its popularity gained so much traction in 1995-6? -- James From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Dec 10 01:53:59 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:53:59 -0600 Subject: a miserable word? (Uh oh) Message-ID: Uh oh. Unless I'm misreading the response below, it answers Ron Butter's question with an insult. But the question about what constitutes a "miserable" word is a very legitimate one. Indeed, someone campaigning against alleged laxness in language should welcome the opportunity to clarify a term of his that is called into question. I've done considerable work on the term "shyster." Now *there's* a miserable word if there ever was one: highly insulting and deriving ultimately from the German vulgar word for excrement (via British criminal slang). And yet, if the word were magically removed from the English language today, our language would be the poorer for it. So the questions remain: Does a scale of goodness or badness exist for the individual words in a language? How does one decide the degree of goodness or badness of any given term? And absent objective criteria in this regard, should the opinion of any one individual on the subject carry more weight than that of anyone else? Gerald Cohen -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Robert Hartwell Fiske Sent: Tue 12/9/2003 11:23 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: a miserable word? Say, Ron, could you more easily understand what a miserable mind is? Perhaps so. Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review www.vocabula.com ______________________ From hqm2011 at NYU.EDU Wed Dec 10 15:01:51 2003 From: hqm2011 at NYU.EDU (Henry Mullish) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:01:51 -0500 Subject: Need some more "transponyms" Message-ID: In the following list of what I hace called "transponyms", the transpositions can occur anywhere in the word, so long as the letters are adjacent to each other.The list currently contains 155 pairs of words: able bale; acne cane; acre care; act cat; add dad; aft fat; ale lea; alter later; am ma; amid maid; amp map; angel angle; any nay; apes apse; apt pat; arid raid; arise raise; arm ram; art rat; asp sap; awn wan; awning warning; awry wary; axel axle; bar bra; bard brad; barn bran; bat tab; beast beats; best bets; beat beta; blot bolt; boast boats; boost boots; brunt burnt; bust buts; calm clam; carp crap; carve crave; cast cats; casual causal; claps clasp; clod cold; clot colt; coast coats; code coed; compiled complied; corps crops; cost cots; crud curd; cups cusp; dairy diary; dart drat; dies ides; discreet discrete; doe ode; does dose; does odes; door odor; ear era; east eats; elan lean; ever veer; evil veil; exist exits; farmer framer; fast fats; feast feats; field filed; filers fliers; files flies; fired fried; fist fits; form from; forth froth; gaol goal; gaps gasp; garb grab; gas sag; gird grid; gore ogre; grist grits; gnu gun; gust guts; hoes hose; infarction infraction; jest jets; just juts; lair liar; lest lets; lair liar; lion loin; lips lisp; lore role; lost lots; mantel mantle; marital martial; mast mats; mien mine; mist mits; most mots; nest nets; no on; noes nose; nuclear unclear; ones noes; opt pot; option potion; orb rob; owe woe; own won; past pats; pate tape; perfect prefect; pest pets; piles plies; ploy poly; polo pool; post pots; quiet quite; rasp raps; rat tar; regarding regrading; retired retried; roes rose; roost roots; rote tone; run urn; rust ruts; sacred scared; salt slat; salve slave; sap spa; silt slit; silver sliver; spilt split; steel stele; sue use; tarp trap; tear tera; there three; tide tied; tier tire; tired tried; tort trot; tow two; trail trial; used sued; vast vats; vest vets; warp wrap; west wets; wist wits; worst worts; wrist writs; I suspect that there are about 200 such pairs of words. So far I have only 155 pairs. Would anyone like to contribute? Henry Mullish ******************************************************** All e-mail to be addressed as: mullish at nyu.edu [Tel #s in Israel]: Henry: 053-846-439 Malka: 066-260-446 [in the U.S.A]: (212)759-0815 ******************************************************** From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Dec 10 15:45:12 2003 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:45:12 EST Subject: Boughten bread Message-ID: "boughten" is in the OED, with a first citation of 1793, from Coleridge of all people "The Commune's villian friendship, And Henriot's boughten succours" It is "used _poet._ for the sake of metre, otherwise only _dial._ and in US in application to purchased as opposed to home-made articles." I don't recall ever having heard "boughten"; the adjective was "store-bought". I must admit I don't recall ever having heard "store-bought" used in conversation, except jocularly, but I must have run across it numerous times in text purporting to show frontier dialog. OED has "store-bought" with a suspiciously late first citation of 1952 (John Steinbeck, _East of Eden_), and a variation not so far mentioned in ADS_L, "store-boughten" with an 1883 first citation. OT: two neologisms found in the local newspaper this week: 1) after the Eagles-Cowboys game, one member of the Eagle's secondary boasted "We covered our asses off" 2) in an article about developers taking over old airfields, someone was quoted as complaining about the developers building "McMansions". Now "mcjobs" is plausible and reasonably obvious in meaning, but what the Mac is a "McMansion"? Note: somebody referred to "mcjobs" as a portmanteau. I would say rather that it is yet another suffix added onto the highly productive stem "mc-" - James A. Landau PS. "Jockey of Norfolk, be not bold For Dickson thy master is boughten sold" which a tin-eared typesetter on the First Folio misrendered as "bought and sold" From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Dec 10 15:59:48 2003 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:59:48 -0000 Subject: McMansion In-Reply-To: <154.29736d7c.2d089988@aol.com> Message-ID: James A. Landau wrote: > 2) in an article about developers taking over old airfields, someone > was quoted as complaining about the developers building "McMansions". > Now "mcjobs" is plausible and reasonably obvious in meaning, but what > the Mac is a "McMansion"? This came up when I was writing about "McJob" recently. In Britain it is usually a derogatory term for a modest new home, the architectural equivalent of the hamburger, but in the US it's a pretentious, over- sized mini-mansion (think pillared portico and gold bathroom taps) that has been squeezed on to an urban building lot. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 16:03:34 2003 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:03:34 -0500 Subject: Boughten bread In-Reply-To: <154.29736d7c.2d089988@aol.com> Message-ID: James A. Landau said: > >OT: two neologisms found in the local newspaper this week: >1) after the Eagles-Cowboys game, one member of the Eagle's secondary boasted >"We covered our asses off" >2) in an article about developers taking over old airfields, someone was >quoted as complaining about the developers building "McMansions". >Now "mcjobs" is >plausible and reasonably obvious in meaning, but what the Mac is a >"McMansion"? This was discussed in a WotY meeting a few years ago. They're "luxury" homes in a cookie-cutter type development. As for "covered our asses off", I don't see what the neologism is. "Cover" has been fairly normal football jargon for a fair number of years. And adding "our asses off" seems like a perfectly normal colloquial intensifier. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 16:19:04 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:19:04 -0500 Subject: Boughten bread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:03 AM -0500 12/10/03, Alice Faber wrote: >James A. Landau said: >> >>OT: two neologisms found in the local newspaper this week: >>1) after the Eagles-Cowboys game, one member of the Eagle's secondary boasted >>"We covered our asses off" >>2) in an article about developers taking over old airfields, someone was >>quoted as complaining about the developers building "McMansions". >>Now "mcjobs" is >>plausible and reasonably obvious in meaning, but what the Mac is a >>"McMansion"? > >This was discussed in a WotY meeting a few years ago. They're >"luxury" homes in a cookie-cutter type development. > >As for "covered our asses off", I don't see what the neologism is. >"Cover" has been fairly normal football jargon for a fair number of >years. And adding "our asses off" seems like a perfectly normal >colloquial intensifier. > I think it's the garden path. "covered our asses" is not a constituent here, but it looks like it should be, and of course its meaning is irrelevant to the intended use, as you note--this is just "to V one's ass off" with V = cover. larry From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM Wed Dec 10 16:24:42 2003 From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 00:24:42 +0800 Subject: Boughten bread In-Reply-To: <200312101606.hBAG6WBb025600@zero.taolodge.com> Message-ID: Born: 1955, Santa Monica, CA "boughten bread" Never heard it. But can understand the construction. fwiw, Russ From colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM Wed Dec 10 16:34:34 2003 From: colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM (David Colburn) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:34:34 -0800 Subject: McMansion Message-ID: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael Quinion > Organization: World Wide Words > Subject: Re: McMansion > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > > This came up when I was writing about "McJob" recently. In Britain it > is usually a derogatory term for a modest new home, the architectural > equivalent of the hamburger, but in the US it's a pretentious, over- > sized mini-mansion (think pillared portico and gold bathroom taps) > that has been squeezed on to an urban building lot. > And it's been around long enough to make it into the Shorter OED, defined as "a modern house built on a large and imposing scale, but regarded as ostentatious and lacking in architectural integrity." From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Dec 10 16:40:58 2003 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:40:58 -0800 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <154.29736d7c.2d089988@aol.com> Message-ID: I don't know what "McMansions" are in other parts of the country, but the term has been around in Oregon for quite awhile to designate the kind of oversized, pretentious house that has sprung up in upscale subdivisions and in rural areas. Typical features are a 3- or 4-stall garage and a pretentious-looking front door with cut glass windows and some kind of grand portico. In subdivisions they mimic California suburbs by taking up nearly all their property and thus crowding together cheek-by-jowl; in rural areas they tend to occupy developments of mini-estates that have taken former farmland out of production or replaced large stands of stately fir trees. For all their pretentious grandiosity, they still manage to look cheap. A great word for a miserable phenomenon. Not that I'm biased or anything. Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:45 AM -0500 "James A. Landau" wrote: > 2) in an article about developers taking over old airfields, someone was > quoted as complaining about the developers building "McMansions". Now > "mcjobs" is plausible and reasonably obvious in meaning, but what the Mac > is a "McMansion"? ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Dec 10 16:44:08 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:44:08 -0500 Subject: Boughten bread Message-ID: "Store-bought" was certainly a familiar term to me, growing up in south-central Kentucky in the 1960s. The counterpart is "home-made." Store-bought has almost passed out of my vocabulary; almost everything is store-bought, so I rarely need a special term to describe store-bought things. It seems unfortunate that the teacher thought it necessary to tear down a sign with a word in dialect. She sounds like a good teacher otherwise. Here's an earlier cite for "store-bought," from our old friends at the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals: "The sheriff had testified that the seven gallons of whisky found by him was homemade and not store-bought whisky." Dirden v. State, 93 Tex.Crim. 324, 247 S.W. 870, 871 (Tex.Crim.App. Jan. 24, 1923). John Baker -----Original Message----- From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:45 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Boughten bread I don't recall ever having heard "boughten"; the adjective was "store-bought". I must admit I don't recall ever having heard "store-bought" used in conversation, except jocularly, but I must have run across it numerous times in text purporting to show frontier dialog. OED has "store-bought" with a suspiciously late first citation of 1952 (John Steinbeck, _East of Eden_), and a variation not so far mentioned in ADS_L, "store-boughten" with an 1883 first citation. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Dec 10 16:46:14 2003 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:46:14 -0500 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <1659612503.1071045658@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: Does every region have ? Bethany From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Dec 10 16:48:17 2003 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:48:17 -0500 Subject: Boughten bread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Baker, John wrote: >It seems unfortunate that the teacher thought it necessary to tear down a sign with a word in dialect. She sounds like a good teacher otherwise. One of my treasured possesions is an aging, now-yellow office sign, "Dialect Spoke Here," made for me by a (bilingual) departmental sec'y at another university. Bethany From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Dec 10 16:54:09 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:54:09 -0500 Subject: McMansion In-Reply-To: <003501c3bf3b$80f32560$6afc1fcc@ibmaa0051d> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 08:34:34AM -0800, David Colburn wrote: > > And it's been around long enough to make it into the Shorter OED, defined as > "a modern house built on a large and imposing scale, but regarded as > ostentatious and lacking in architectural integrity." And the Longer OED, with the same definition. Jesse Sheidlower Longer OED From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Dec 10 17:02:42 2003 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:02:42 -0800 Subject: Boughten bread In-Reply-To: <154.29736d7c.2d089988@aol.com> Message-ID: I never heard "boughten" alone, but "store-bought" has always been used in our family to designate something not homemade. I dimly remember starting out with "store-boughten" way back in my childhood in S. California and/or Oregon (late 40s-early 50s), and switching to "store-bought" in response to a parental correction. Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:45 AM -0500 "James A. Landau" wrote: > OED has "store-bought" with a suspiciously late first citation of 1952 > (John Steinbeck, _East of Eden_), and a variation not so far mentioned in > ADS_L, "store-boughten" with an 1883 first citation. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Dec 10 17:09:20 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:09:20 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20recockulous?= Message-ID: In a message dated 12/9/03 7:16:18 PM, MAdams1448 at AOL.COM writes: > A lawyer friend of mine from Western Iowa, recalls using recockulous while > in College at USC; they talk funny there too. > I bet this word started in Southern California (no doubt the geographical source of massive amounts of lexicographical and cultural misery)--I assume that MAdams' use of "USC" is intended to indicate The University of Southern California and not The University of South Carolina, even though the team name of the latter is "Gamecocks" (and "Go Cocks!" is a popoular cheer). From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 17:26:50 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:26:50 -0500 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <1659612503.1071045658@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > grand portico. In subdivisions they mimic California suburbs by taking up > nearly all their property and thus crowding together cheek-by-jowl; in > rural areas they tend to occupy developments of mini-estates that have > taken former farmland out of production or replaced large stands of stately > fir trees. For all their pretentious grandiosity, they still manage to > look cheap. A great word for a miserable phenomenon. I think the "Mc" in McMansion must be inspired by the cookie-cutter nature of the houses, since grandiosity or size are not particularly associated with McDonald's. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Dec 10 17:29:36 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:29:36 EST Subject: SHYSTER, MCJOB, etc. Message-ID: Thanks, Gerald, for a serious, sober response to a serious question. Despite its etymology, I've never treated SHYSTER as a taboo word, but then my personal tastes tend to run against the acknowledgment of taboo constraints, and if what you are saying is that many normal, sane people will actually be offended by the very use of SHYSTER, then I'll file that information away in my connotations bank and try to be judicious. As for the mysterious putative "miserableness" of "McJob," however, I can't imagine that anyone would think of it as a taboo word. In fact, I can't imagine that anyone would find it objectionable on any grounds (except maybe newness). And, as you note, there has been no adult communication here about such grounds thus far. As for the legal huffing and puffing of McDonalds concerning their apparently having registered "McJob" as a trademark: I'm no lawyer, but from what I do know about US trademark law I find it difficult to believe that they can really be serious about taking legal action against the dictionary maker. For one thing, a dictionary maker who enters "McJob" in a dictionary is not using it as a trademark, they are merely reporting on the results of their scientific investigations. The use of the term in the media in a nontrademark way is so overwhelmingly numerous that any lexicographer would have to agree that the dictionary maker's entry is scientifically correct. Often dictionary makers do publish notice of the registration of a trademark as a part of their definitions, but they are not legally required to do so, as far as I know, and as someone else noted a week or so ago, McDonalds in this case would not find such a notice very flattering. I suspect that the main reason McDonalds made threatening noises about McJob is just that they are forced to give the appearance of vigorously defending their trademark. That is to say, they have to put their objections to the dictionary entry on the record--otherwise, their lack of action could be used against them in court in some unrelated case. As many ADS-L-ers know, McDonalds claims not just "McJobs," "McNuggets," etc., but at least one court has ruled that they actually own the "Mc-" prefix. Their victory in that case (in which a motel chain was not allowed to use the name "McSleep") was somewhat controversial at the time (see Lentine and Shuy's excellent article on the case in AMERICAN SPEECH several years ago). I suspect that McDonalds is rather sensitive about anything that starts with "Mc-". In a message dated 12/9/03 8:54:13 PM, gcohen at UMR.EDU writes: > Uh oh. Unless I'm misreading the response below, it answers Ron Butter's > question with an insult. But the question about what constitutes a "miserable" > word is a very legitimate one. Indeed, someone campaigning against alleged > laxness in language should welcome the opportunity to clarify a term of his > that is called into question. > > ? ? I've done considerable work on the term "shyster." Now *there's* a > miserable word if there ever was one: highly insulting and deriving? ultimately > from the German vulgar word for excrement (via British criminal slang).? And > yet, if the word were magically removed from the English language today, our > language would be the poorer for it. > > ? ?? So the questions remain: Does a scale of goodness or badness exist for > the individual words in a language? How does one decide the degree of > goodness or badness of any given term? And absent objective criteria in this regard, > should the opinion of any one individual on the subject carry more weight > than that of anyone else? > > Gerald Cohen > From self at TOWSE.COM Wed Dec 10 17:36:49 2003 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:36:49 -0800 Subject: recockulous In-Reply-To: <5D6D0DC2.09E104BB.0B0EF510@aol.com> Message-ID: Michael Adams wrote: > A lawyer friend of mine from Western Iowa, recalls using recockulous while in College at USC; they talk funny there too. Very well could be. The etymology as given in the Urban Dictionary states, "Word coined by 'Loveline' radio show host Adam Carolla after show producers recieved complaints that he was using the word "Dick" on the air. Producers suggested he use the word "Cock" instead. Carolla, mockingly concerned about overemphasizing the "dic" syllable in ridiculous, began saying "Recockulous" instead." I'd imagine someone else could've come up with that substitution in another place, another time. Carolla, though, seems to have popularized the use. -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Dec 10 17:32:42 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:32:42 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20McMansions=20(was:=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Boughten=20bread)?= Message-ID: In a message dated 12/10/03 12:27:37 PM, fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: > I think the "Mc" in McMansion must be inspired by the cookie-cutter nature > of the houses, since grandiosity or size are not particularly associated > with McDonald's. > But perhaps just as fast food could be thought of as a kind of a cheap imitation of "real" food, so are small houses with pillars and porticos a kind of cheap imitation of "real" mansions. This would work for the US usage, at any rate. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 17:35:31 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:35:31 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20McMansions=20(was:=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Boughten=20bread)?= In-Reply-To: <200312101733.hBAHX3L18534@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > But perhaps just as fast food could be thought of as a kind of a cheap > imitation of "real" food, so are small houses with pillars and porticos a kind of > cheap imitation of "real" mansions. This would work for the US usage, at any > rate. You're right, this is a better explanation than the one I proferred. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From self at TOWSE.COM Wed Dec 10 17:44:30 2003 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:44:30 -0800 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <2f.42c6ebea.2d08b2ba@aol.com> Message-ID: RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 12/10/03 12:27:37 PM, fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: >>I think the "Mc" in McMansion must be inspired by the cookie-cutter nature >>of the houses, since grandiosity or size are not particularly associated >>with McDonald's. > But perhaps just as fast food could be thought of as a kind of a cheap > imitation of "real" food, so are small houses with pillars and porticos a kind of > cheap imitation of "real" mansions. This would work for the US usage, at any > rate. Out here in the heart of Silicon Valley, our Mediterranean-style McMansions tend to have Taco Bell tile roofs. -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Dec 10 17:45:10 2003 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:45:10 -0800 Subject: SHYSTER, MCJOB, etc. In-Reply-To: <24.4b3d99fa.2d08b200@aol.com> Message-ID: Oh, well, I never liked "McGraw" very much, anyway. And hotel clerks and suchlike in Europe, ever sensitive to the nuances of U.S. copyright law, have frequently called me "Mr. Graw." Guess I could do that, too. Or maybe I'll just go for "Smith" (and hope the Smith Bros. won't sue me). Peter (formerly Mc)G. --On Wednesday, December 10, 2003 12:29 PM -0500 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > at least one court has ruled that > they actually own the "Mc-" prefix. Their victory in that case (in which > a motel chain was not allowed to use the name "McSleep") was somewhat > controversial at the time (see Lentine and Shuy's excellent article on > the case in AMERICAN SPEECH several years ago). I suspect that McDonalds > is rather sensitive about anything that starts with "Mc-". ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From remlingk at GVSU.EDU Wed Dec 10 18:01:01 2003 From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:01:01 -0500 Subject: History of "Spanglish" in the US Message-ID: Can anyone suggest sources on the history of "Spanglish" in the US? I'm particularly looking for under-grad level texts (articles, books, book chapters) for a History of English course. Thanks, Kate ____________________ Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Department of English Grand Valley State University 1 Campus Drive Allendale, MI 49401 USA remlingk at gvsu.edu tel: 616-331-3122 fax: 616-331-3430 From mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 10 18:12:31 2003 From: mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:12:31 -0500 Subject: a miserable word? (Uh oh) In-Reply-To: <200312100502.hBA52wk8008840@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Gerald Cohen wrote: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:53:59 -0600 From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" Subject: Re: a miserable word? (Uh oh) VWggb2guIFVubGVzcyBJJ20gbWlzcmVhZGluZyB0aGUgcmVzcG9uc2UgYmVsb3csIGl0IGFuc3dl cnMgUm9uIEJ1dHRlcidzIHF1ZXN0aW9uIHdpdGggYW4gaW5zdWx0LiBCdXQgdGhlIHF1ZXN0aW9u IGFib3V0IHdoYXQgY29uc3RpdHV0ZXMgYSAibWlzZXJhYmxlIiB3b3JkIGlzIGEgdmVyeSBsZWdp dGltYXRlIG9uZS4gSW5kZWVkLCBzb21lb25lIGNhbXBhaWduaW5nIGFnYWluc3QgYWxsZWdlZCBs [and so on] Howzat again? On second thought, please not "again"; just ... Wha'? -- Mark A. Mandel From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 18:31:13 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:31:13 -0500 Subject: McMansion et al. In-Reply-To: <20031210165409.GA25409@panix.com> Message-ID: quoth Jesse Sheidlower: >On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 08:34:34AM -0800, David Colburn wrote: >> >> And it's been around long enough to make it into the Shorter OED, defined as >> "a modern house built on a large and imposing scale, but regarded as >> ostentatious and lacking in architectural integrity." > >And the Longer OED, with the same definition. > Nice retronym! A couple of slightly newer WOTY candidates: a single page of a novel (Lawrence Block's _Small Town_, 2003, p. 78, contains the following items: pigeon-fucker sponsee Lesbian Bed Death cruisier [comparative adjective] --of these, only the first appears to be truly new, assuming it wasn't invented by Block. The others clearly weren't. _sponsee_ (see below) has 2,270 google hits and 14 "major papers" Nexis hits, typically primed by _sponsor_, and has been around at least since 1987; Safire mentioned it in a column in 1991. _Lesbian Bed Death_ has 201,000 [!] google hits and 9 Nexis hits dating back to 1995. As for _cruisier_ ([re Christopher St. in Greenwich Village:] "at this hour on this nice a day it would be a little bit cruisier than he could stand"), it was a bit hard to pin down because of all the false hits ("Toyota Land Cruisiers" seem to be especially hot items), but I did find one from an article on Provincetown ("it was cruisier than other bars in town"), and of course it involves productive morphology, which makes the "new"ness somewhat arbitrary. What of _pigeon-fucker_, you ask? Well, here's the context, and the only occurrence of this form that I could locate (yes, there were 11 google hits but all seem to involve the compositional meaning alluded to in the parenthetical from the text below, not the idiomatic sense defined just above): ========== "The conventional wisdom in AA was that one ought to choose a sponsor of one's own sex, to keep sexual tension from undermining the relationship. That was fine for straights, but it wasn't that simple in gay AA, where the term _pigeon-fucker_ had been coined to label sponsors who took sexual advantage of sponsees. (He'd heard the term at his first meeting, and thought it was some kinky practice he'd somehow missed out on.)" =========== Maybe not the sort of technical term whose merits we want to evaluate in Boston, but there it is. Suitable, perhaps, for Jesse's catalogue, if nothing else. larry From sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM Wed Dec 10 18:35:13 2003 From: sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM (Chuck Borsos) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:35:13 GMT Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) Message-ID: Here in the Santa Cruz area there is a vegetarian restaurant called "Dharma's". Originally, some twenty years ago or so, it had been named "McDharma's", until Ronald McDonald & Co. took umbrage and sued. Being a commercial application, perhaps they had a legally justifiable defense of trademark, but not a good sense of humor. Chuck Borsos Santa Cruz, CA From patty at CRUZIO.COM Wed Dec 10 18:48:48 2003 From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:48:48 -0800 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <200312101835.hBAIZCXM059486@mail.cruzio.com> Message-ID: Hey - you're in Santa Cruz? So am I - cool. Are you a linguist? I've been here for years and have never eaten at McDharma's/Dharma's but I sure know this story :) Patty At 06:35 PM 12/10/03 +0000, you wrote: >Here in the Santa Cruz area there is a vegetarian restaurant called >"Dharma's". Originally, some twenty years ago or so, it had been named >"McDharma's", until Ronald McDonald & Co. took umbrage and sued. >Being a commercial application, perhaps they had a legally justifiable >defense of trademark, but not a good sense of humor. > >Chuck Borsos >Santa Cruz, CA From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Dec 10 19:06:52 2003 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:06:52 -0500 Subject: History of "Spanglish" in the US In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ilan Stavans just published a book on the subject, but he's not a linguist -- I believe he's a social historian. I haven't read it yet, but it sounded fairly accessible and interesting. On 10 Dec 2003, at 13:01, Kathryn Remlinger wrote: > Can anyone suggest sources on the history of "Spanglish" in the US? I'm > particularly looking for under-grad level texts (articles, books, book > chapters) for a History of English course. > > Thanks, > Kate > > ____________________ > Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of English: Linguistics > Department of English > Grand Valley State University > 1 Campus Drive > Allendale, MI 49401 USA > remlingk at gvsu.edu > tel: 616-331-3122 > fax: 616-331-3430 Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Dec 10 19:45:14 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:45:14 -0500 Subject: SHYSTER, MCJOB, etc. Message-ID: For another extension of the Mc-- prefix, here's an online article, from New Zealand no less, talking about McBrothels: >>A morals watchdog group is warning that a loophole in new sex laws could see chains of "McBrothels" opening up around the country. The Society for the Promotion of Community Standards said the loophole would allow chains of brothels to set up without officialdom knowing where they were. Under the Prostitution Reform Act an operator of a brothel has to be certified by July 2004. However, application forms require just the operator's name, date of birth, gender, an authenticated photograph, a photocopy of a form of official identification and an address where the certificate - issued by the Auckland District Court - and any related correspondence can be sent. "What it means is that anyone over 18 can set up a chain of McBrothels around the country and there's no requirement for anyone to say where these sexual services are being provided," society secretary David Lane said. "A service address could be a post office box in Invercargill or on the Chatham Islands. That's got huge implications." << From http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2754039a11,00.html. John Baker From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Dec 10 20:23:47 2003 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:23:47 -0800 Subject: Boughten bread Message-ID: I have been interested in this form for a long time. I think this form is much more common than many people realize. I often hear people, particularly students, say 'boughten' and I make a mental note. Several days later I'll ask the student or entire class whether they have heard it. I find it most curious when someone who said 'boughten' two days earlier claims never to have heard it (Maybe they just don't listen to what they say). I also periodically hear something like this "I have boughten a new cd player." fritz >>> pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU 12/10/03 09:02AM >>> I never heard "boughten" alone, but "store-bought" has always been used in our family to designate something not homemade. I dimly remember starting out with "store-boughten" way back in my childhood in S. California and/or Oregon (late 40s-early 50s), and switching to "store-bought" in response to a parental correction. Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:45 AM -0500 "James A. Landau" wrote: > OED has "store-bought" with a suspiciously late first citation of 1952 > (John Steinbeck, _East of Eden_), and a variation not so far mentioned in > ADS_L, "store-boughten" with an 1883 first citation. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Dec 10 20:26:01 2003 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:26:01 -0500 Subject: History of "Spanglish" in the US Message-ID: Spanglish: the making of a new American language, by Ilan Stavans, New York: Rayo, c2003. 274 p. Received here in late October. The subject label identifies it as dealing with "Mexican Americans -- Language" & "Hispanic Americans -- Language". GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joanne M. Despres" Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 2:06 pm Subject: Re: History of "Spanglish" in the US > Ilan Stavans just published a book on the subject, but he's not a > linguist -- I believe he's a social historian. I haven't read it > yet, but > it sounded fairly accessible and interesting. > > > > On 10 Dec 2003, at 13:01, Kathryn Remlinger wrote: > > > Can anyone suggest sources on the history of "Spanglish" in the > US? I'm > > particularly looking for under-grad level texts (articles, > books, book > > chapters) for a History of English course. > > > > Thanks, > > Kate > > > > ____________________ > > Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor of English: Linguistics > > Department of English > > Grand Valley State University > > 1 Campus Drive > > Allendale, MI 49401 USA > > remlingk at gvsu.edu > > tel: 616-331-3122 > > fax: 616-331-3430 > > > Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor > Merriam-Webster, Inc. > jdespres at merriam-webster.com > http://www.merriam-webster.com > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Dec 10 20:30:13 2003 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:30:13 -0500 Subject: Any Tolkien experts out there? Message-ID: Probably this is to much in the lit-crit bullshit vein for the purpose, but. . . . Splintered light: logos and language in Tolkien's world, by Verlyn Flieger. 2nd ed. Kent, Ohio : Kent State University Press, c2002. The only book in Bobst on the subject of Tolkien language. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Geoffrey Nunberg Date: Tuesday, December 9, 2003 1:50 pm Subject: Any Tolkien experts out there? > Can anyone help this gentleman out? Please respond directly to him. > > Geoff Nunberg > > >Hi Dr. Nunberg: > >I work for the cable network Tech TV, and we're producing an > >upcoming special on the Lord of the Rings --Return of the King > >Movie. I'm producing a piece on the languages Tolkien created for > >his books, and wondering if you knew much about him or knew of > >someone who might. Many thanks for any help you may provide. > >Best, > > > >***************************** > >Andy Jordan > >Segment Producer > >News/Tech TV > >650 Townsend Street 5090L > >San Francisco, CA 94103 > >office: 415.355.4352 > >fax: 415.355.4480 > >cell: 415.948.6530 > >cell2: 415.297.6999 > >andrewjordan at techtvcorp.com > >techtv.com > >techlive.com > >**************************************************************************** > >ABOUT TECH TV > >TechTV is the cable network that showcases the smart, edgy and > >unexpected side of technology. By telling stories through the prism > >of technology, TechTV intrigues viewers with everything from help > >and information to cutting-edge documentaries to outrageous > >late-night fun. TechTV viewers are highly interactive and passionate > >about engaging in the television experience and log a monthly > >average of 1.4 million unique visits to techtv.com. Owned by Vulcan > >Inc., TechTV is currently available in 40 million homes in the U.S. > >and distributes content to more than 70 countries. > From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Wed Dec 10 19:28:30 2003 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:28:30 -0500 Subject: McMansion Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:59:48 -0000 Michael Quinion writes: > but in the US it's a pretentious, > over- > sized mini-mansion (think pillared portico and gold bathroom taps) > that has been squeezed on to an urban building lot. Around here that is called "contractor Palladian." D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Dec 10 23:09:13 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:09:13 -0500 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <200312101835.hBAIZCXM059486@mail.cruzio.com> Message-ID: > Here in the Santa Cruz area there is a vegetarian restaurant called > "Dharma's". Originally, some twenty years ago or so, it had been named > "McDharma's", until Ronald McDonald & Co. took umbrage and sued. > Being a commercial application, perhaps they had a legally justifiable > defense of trademark, but not a good sense of humor. McDonald's would seem to be justified in this one. Both are restaurants (or McDonald's at least has pretenses at being one). The chief purpose of trademark law is to distinguish one product from another, so businesses in the same industry are the most vulnerable to trademark infringement. The decision in the "McSleep" suit is questionable. AFAIK, McDonald's is not in the hotel business. Suing a dictionary for including "McJob" would simply be silly and probably laughed out of court. Not to say that McDonald's might not try... From alcockg at SRICRM.COM Wed Dec 10 23:28:51 2003 From: alcockg at SRICRM.COM (Gwyn Alcock) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:28:51 -0800 Subject: recockulous In-Reply-To: <200312101733.MAA14389@dauntless.cnchost.com> Message-ID: The show "Loveline" began as a short late-night radio segment on a Los Angeles rock station, KROQ. The show is now syndicated, and it had a few years' run as a TV show on MTV, I think. It's not surprising that somebody from U. of Southern California would be using words coined or popularized on the show. Gwyn Alcock Redlands, CA (KROQ listener since 1979) -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Towse Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 9:37 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: recockulous Michael Adams wrote: > A lawyer friend of mine from Western Iowa, recalls using recockulous while in College at USC; they talk funny there too. Very well could be. The etymology as given in the Urban Dictionary states, "Word coined by 'Loveline' radio show host Adam Carolla after show producers recieved complaints that he was using the word "Dick" on the air. Producers suggested he use the word "Cock" instead. Carolla, mockingly concerned about overemphasizing the "dic" syllable in ridiculous, began saying "Recockulous" instead." I'd imagine someone else could've come up with that substitution in another place, another time. Carolla, though, seems to have popularized the use. -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Dec 10 23:52:27 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:52:27 -0500 Subject: Boughten bread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Boughten" is cited in Atwood's _Survey of Verb Forms in the Eastern U.S._ as an older, "less-cultured" form but common in New England, less common in the Middle and South Atlantic states. He said "no cultured informant" in the MAS or SAS used it. Shades of my South Dakota-born but "cultured" h.s. English teacher. In fact, Atwood says Raven McDavid would hear it spontaneously used, but when he questioned people about it they denied using it--just like Fritz's class. But both cited it in adjectival use only, not as the participial verb; I've never heard the latter either. It's a kind of regularizing of the irregular though, isn't it? "Store-bought" strikes me as more Western, as Peter and Jim note. Beverly At 12:23 PM 12/10/2003 -0800, you wrote: >I have been interested in this form for a long time. I think this form is >much more common than many people realize. I often hear people, >particularly students, say 'boughten' and I make a mental note. Several >days later I'll ask the student or entire class whether they have heard >it. I find it most curious when someone who said 'boughten' two days >earlier claims never to have heard it (Maybe they just don't listen to >what they say). I also periodically hear something like this "I have >boughten a new cd player." >fritz > > >>> pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU 12/10/03 09:02AM >>> >I never heard "boughten" alone, but "store-bought" has always been used in >our family to designate something not homemade. I dimly remember starting >out with "store-boughten" way back in my childhood in S. California and/or >Oregon (late 40s-early 50s), and switching to "store-bought" in response to >a parental correction. > >Peter Mc. > >--On Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:45 AM -0500 "James A. Landau" > wrote: > > > OED has "store-bought" with a suspiciously late first citation of 1952 > > (John Steinbeck, _East of Eden_), and a variation not so far mentioned in > > ADS_L, "store-boughten" with an 1883 first citation. > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Dec 10 23:56:56 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:56:56 -0500 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <1659612503.1071045658@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: "Build thee more stately McMansions, o my soul,/ As the swift seasons roll." At 08:40 AM 12/10/2003 -0800, you wrote: >I don't know what "McMansions" are in other parts of the country, but the >term has been around in Oregon for quite awhile to designate the kind of >oversized, pretentious house that has sprung up in upscale subdivisions and >in rural areas. Typical features are a 3- or 4-stall garage and a >pretentious-looking front door with cut glass windows and some kind of >grand portico. In subdivisions they mimic California suburbs by taking up >nearly all their property and thus crowding together cheek-by-jowl; in >rural areas they tend to occupy developments of mini-estates that have >taken former farmland out of production or replaced large stands of stately >fir trees. For all their pretentious grandiosity, they still manage to >look cheap. A great word for a miserable phenomenon. > >Not that I'm biased or anything. > >Peter Mc. > >--On Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:45 AM -0500 "James A. Landau" > wrote: > >>2) in an article about developers taking over old airfields, someone was >>quoted as complaining about the developers building "McMansions". Now >>"mcjobs" is plausible and reasonably obvious in meaning, but what the Mac >>is a "McMansion"? > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Dec 10 23:55:31 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:55:31 -0500 Subject: Boughten bread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:48 AM 12/10/2003 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Baker, John wrote: > > >It seems unfortunate that the teacher thought it necessary to tear down >a sign with a word in dialect. She sounds like a good teacher otherwise. > >One of my treasured possesions is an aging, now-yellow office sign, >"Dialect Spoke Here," made for me by a (bilingual) departmental sec'y at >another university. > >Bethany That's classic! I'm going to put it on my door. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Dec 11 00:13:17 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:13:17 -0500 Subject: History of "Spanglish" in the US In-Reply-To: <2081eda2081993.20819932081eda@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: I've heard Stavans interviewed on NPR, and he has a very sound take on Spanglish, even if he isn't a linguist. But there are linguists who've written on it too, including Ana Celia Zentella. Check MLA and LLBA bibliographic search engines. At 03:26 PM 12/10/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Spanglish: the making of a new American language, by Ilan Stavans, New >York: Rayo, c2003. 274 p. Received here in late October. The subject >label identifies it as dealing with "Mexican Americans -- Language" & >"Hispanic Americans -- Language". > >GAT > >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern >Univ. Pr., 1998. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joanne M. Despres" >Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 2:06 pm >Subject: Re: History of "Spanglish" in the US > > > Ilan Stavans just published a book on the subject, but he's not a > > linguist -- I believe he's a social historian. I haven't read it > > yet, but > > it sounded fairly accessible and interesting. > > > > > > > > On 10 Dec 2003, at 13:01, Kathryn Remlinger wrote: > > > > > Can anyone suggest sources on the history of "Spanglish" in the > > US? I'm > > > particularly looking for under-grad level texts (articles, > > books, book > > > chapters) for a History of English course. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Kate > > > > > > ____________________ > > > Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. > > > Associate Professor of English: Linguistics > > > Department of English > > > Grand Valley State University > > > 1 Campus Drive > > > Allendale, MI 49401 USA > > > remlingk at gvsu.edu > > > tel: 616-331-3122 > > > fax: 616-331-3430 > > > > > > Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor > > Merriam-Webster, Inc. > > jdespres at merriam-webster.com > > http://www.merriam-webster.com > > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Dec 11 00:00:43 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:00:43 -0500 Subject: Boughten bread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oops--I said earlier that "store-bought" seemed Western to me, but of course I've heard it around SE Ohio too, so it's likely South Midland (and Southern?) in origin. I don't recall ever hearing it in Minnesota though, at least when I was young. At 11:44 AM 12/10/2003 -0500, you wrote: > "Store-bought" was certainly a familiar term to me, growing up in > south-central Kentucky in the 1960s. The counterpart is > "home-made." Store-bought has almost passed out of my vocabulary; almost > everything is store-bought, so I rarely need a special term to describe > store-bought things. > > It seems unfortunate that the teacher thought it necessary to > tear down a sign with a word in dialect. She sounds like a good teacher > otherwise. > > Here's an earlier cite for "store-bought," from our old friends > at the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals: "The sheriff had testified that > the seven gallons of whisky found by him was homemade and not > store-bought whisky." Dirden v. State, 93 Tex.Crim. 324, 247 S.W. 870, > 871 (Tex.Crim.App. Jan. 24, 1923). > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM] >Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:45 AM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Boughten bread > > >I don't recall ever having heard "boughten"; the adjective was >"store-bought". I must admit I don't recall ever having heard >"store-bought" used in >conversation, except jocularly, but I must have run across it numerous >times in text >purporting to show frontier dialog. > >OED has "store-bought" with a suspiciously late first citation of 1952 (John >Steinbeck, _East of Eden_), and a variation not so far mentioned in ADS_L, >"store-boughten" with an 1883 first citation. From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Dec 11 00:32:05 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:32:05 EST Subject: Why McSleep lost Message-ID: In a message dated 12/10/03 6:09:57 PM, dave at WILTON.NET writes: > The decision in the "McSleep" suit is questionable. AFAIK, McDonald's is > not > in the hotel business. > Again, I am not a lawyer, and I hope Bethany Dumas will correct me where I am wrong here: My memory is that McDonald's argued that hotels are so often in the food business that the public might quite naturally believe that McDonald's had gone into the hotel business if McSleep were allowed to prevail. In addition, there is something in trademark law called "dilution," a basis for claiming infringement if a very famous mark is used by someone else as a trademark in such a way that the owner of the mark might well suffer loss. I'm not totally sure how this works, but I think it might be grounds for, say, preventing a chain of second-hand automobile stores (not owned by Disney) from calling themselves "Mickey Mouse" Auto SuperStores. "Mickey Mouse" is not a trademark associated (as of today) with automobile sales. However, M.M. is so famous that the public might reasonably be led to believe that Disney was going into the car business. And even if the public did not generally believe this, the mark is so famous that Disney could claim that their lingjuistic property was nonetheless being misappropriated and "diluted." By the way (as I recall) the McSleep people argued that McDonald's had no right to "Mc-" in and of itself because it is, they said, a generic term for cheap stuff. They lost, despite impressive evidence presented in court by Roger Shuy himself. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Dec 11 02:28:10 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:28:10 -0600 Subject: 1) OT: Barry's close call, 2) William Safire's column Message-ID: Here are a few thoughts about Barry's close call (Dec. 9 message): 1) I'm appalled at the fire-trap conditions in which he must work, as well as the insensitivity of his superior in having the employees return to a possibly unsafe situation (the public was still excluded). 2) But judging from Barry's account, that insensitivity might have saved his life, since it brought him into the building and away from the manhole where the gas explosion occurred. 3) Re: William Safire's column, I'd prefer to see Barry referred to as a "peripatetic etymologist" rather than a "growling" one. "Word sleuth" would also be entirely accurate. Still, after the hiatus of several years in which Barry evidently became a non-person for Safire (Barry, reread the message you sent from Roumania), Safire's renewed mention of Barry's work is both welcome and remarkable. It bespeaks a magnanimous spirit willing to overlook some very sharp criticism and focus on Barry's contribution to a given topic. Barry's research is truly extraordinary. 4) Safire's column and ads-l are in a symbiotic relationship. Our research benefits the column, while Safire provides wonderful publicity to both our field and some of its members. Several ads-l members sent messages of congratulations to Barry and Sam for being mentioned in last week's column--well deserved in both cases. As an organization we owe Mr. Safire and his assistant Kathleen Miller a debt of gratitude for their interest in our field, and on behalf of ads-l I now thank them for their efforts. With best wishes all the way around, Gerald Cohen From pds at VISI.COM Thu Dec 11 01:44:15 2003 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:44:15 -0600 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <20031210164617.833EE49DC@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: At 12/10/2003 11:46 AM -0500, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: >Does every region have ? The term I hear in MN is 'starter castle'. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Dec 11 03:07:26 2003 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:07:26 -0500 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.1.20031210194324.01af0970@pop.visi.com> Message-ID: Tom Kysilko wrote: >At 12/10/2003 11:46 AM -0500, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: >>Does every region have ? > >The term I hear in MN is 'starter castle'. > At one of the recent LSA meetings, somebody gave a paper in an ADS session on the linguistic identity of the UP of Michigan. I think she used the term 'starter castle' as well, in her description of the changing face of the UP. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 11 03:26:58 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:26:58 EST Subject: Colorado Historic Newspaper Collection; Point Man Pressure (1970) Message-ID: OT: I worked in Manhattan today. The Bronx Help Center was closed today. I'm scheduled to return to the Bronx on Friday. (No thonx?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- COLORADO HISTORIC NEWSPAPER COLLECTION One for Fred Shapiro's little list of electronic databases. When fin ished, Colorado might have "I'm from Missouri" in this period. This project is using the same Olive software as the Brooklyn Eagle, the Missouri Historical Newspapers Project, and the British National Library Newspapers Project. http://www.cdpheritage.org/newspapers/news_2003-10-23.html Denver, CO, October 22, 2003 ? The University of Denver Penrose Library, Colorado Digitization Program (CDP), Colorado State Library and Colorado Historical Society received a 2003 Institute of Museum and Library Services (IMLS) National Leadership grant for $249,232 to digitizing approximately 125,000 pages from Colorado?s historic newspapers, 1880-1899. This project will add to an existing initiative that is converting forty-four newspapers representing more than 50,000 pages. Through these projects researchers, genealogists, students, teachers and those interested in Colorado history will be able to search for a wide range of topics, people and events as well as view full page images of these historic newspapers. ?This project will provide our students and educators? and anyone who loves Colorado history--with an unparalleled view of Colorado? s past,? commented Nancy Bolt, Colorado State Librarian. The Colorado?s Historic Newspaper Collection will be available on the Internet through CDP?s web site (http://www.cdpheritage.org) and the Colorado Virtual Library ( http://www.aclin.org). ?This project will allow scanning across all newspapers at one time, which is now not possible. With this project, faculty, researchers, and students will be able to do research efficiently, seeing history and social issues from new vantage points,? noted Nancy Allen, Dean of Libraries, University of Denver. This project will use Olive Software?s ActivePaper Archive? that is specifically designed to handle historic newspapers ( http://www.uk.olivesoftware.com). Additional newspapers would be added to the Collection as funds are available. It is the intent of the project partners that the Colorado?s Historic Newspaper Collection would eventually include papers through 1923, a total of 1,640,000 pages. ?If we can provide easy access to the information about the people who made Colorado what it is today, genealogists and historians will be very pleased,? commented Rebecca Lintz, Librarian, Colorado Historical Society. The Collection is being created from the microfilm collection held by the Colorado Historical Society ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- POINT GUARD THE SLIDING ZONE DEFENSE by John S. Egli West Nyack, NY: Parker Publishing Company. Inc. 1970 Pg. 146: Point Man Pressure. (As close as the book comes--ed.) From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Dec 11 03:27:20 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:27:20 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker Message-ID: Sorry to post this to the general list, when I really only want to call on the help of Barry, Fred, and Jesse. (Jesse: I don't have a separate email for you). While I'm not aware of a cite earlier than the Century Dictionary(1909) cite in my Mathews, I'd love to know if there is earlier. We get this question posted over at the Straight Dope repeatedly. Mighty Cecil, himself, even wrote a column on it many years ago. But NO cites. Everyone spouts on about Hickock, but no one can cite any evidence. Questions: Did the phrase originate about Hickock? Is there any contemporary cite for the cards? (I doubt it. Why WOULD there be)? I guess I'm only asking if anyone with database access could check this for prior to 1909. I THINK I checked Ancestry.com, but I'll go back tonight and try again. And, Jesse, you don't list this useage in current on-line OED that I've found. Neither does M-W. I could be wrong. Sam Clements From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 11 03:43:06 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:43:06 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker In-Reply-To: <001301c3bf96$b23197a0$92631941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Sam Clements wrote: > While I'm not aware of a cite earlier than the Century Dictionary(1909) cite > in my Mathews, I'd love to know if there is earlier. We get this question > posted over at the Straight Dope repeatedly. Mighty Cecil, himself, even > wrote a column on it many years ago. But NO cites. 1903 _National Police Gazette_ 3 Jan. 6 DEATH IN A POKER GAME WHERE ONE PLAYER HELD A "DEAD MAN'S HAND" A Jack Full on Red Sevens Seems to be an Unusually Fatal Combination of the Pasteboards. ... Half a dozen sports were lined up against the bar of a big hotel in Milwaukee, Wis., the other night, and the talk drifted to poker. "There is in the great game," remarked one, "what is known as the 'Dead Man's Hand.' I only saw it played once, but that was enough for me. I'd heard about this 'Dead Man's Hand,' soon after I struck the West. [No mention of Wild Bill Hickock] Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Dec 11 03:48:03 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:48:03 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker In-Reply-To: <001301c3bf96$b23197a0$92631941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 10:27:20PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote: > Sorry to post this to the general list, when I really only want to call on > the help of Barry, Fred, and Jesse. (Jesse: I don't have a separate email > for you). It's jester at panix.com . > While I'm not aware of a cite earlier than the Century Dictionary(1909) cite > in my Mathews, I'd love to know if there is earlier. We get this question > posted over at the Straight Dope repeatedly. Mighty Cecil, himself, even > wrote a column on it many years ago. But NO cites. > > Everyone spouts on about Hickock, but no one can cite any evidence. > > Questions: Did the phrase originate about Hickock? Is there any > contemporary cite for the cards? (I doubt it. Why WOULD there be)? > > And, Jesse, you don't list this useage in current on-line OED that I've > found. Neither does M-W. There is an entry for it in HDAS, which uses the same Century quote but dated to the 1908 supplement (I don't know if this is an error, or the actual date of that supplement, or HDAS's overly optimistic dating practices). Still haven't discovered anything earlier. It's unquestionably associated with Hickok and I have no reason do doubt this. Rosa spends a bit of time on the subject in his 1974 biography. I haven't re-checked the databases, though. Jesse Sheidlower OED From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Dec 11 03:49:22 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:49:22 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 10:43:06PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Sam Clements wrote: > > > While I'm not aware of a cite earlier than the Century Dictionary(1909) cite > > in my Mathews, I'd love to know if there is earlier. We get this question > > posted over at the Straight Dope repeatedly. Mighty Cecil, himself, even > > wrote a column on it many years ago. But NO cites. > > 1903 _National Police Gazette_ 3 Jan. 6 DEATH IN A POKER GAME WHERE ONE > PLAYER HELD A "DEAD MAN'S HAND" A Jack Full on Red Sevens Seems to be an > Unusually Fatal Combination of the Pasteboards. ... Half a dozen sports were > lined up against the bar of a big hotel in Milwaukee, Wis., the other > night, and the talk drifted to poker. "There is in the great game," > remarked one, "what is known as the 'Dead Man's Hand.' I only saw it > played once, but that was enough for me. I'd heard about this 'Dead Man's > Hand,' soon after I struck the West. > > [No mention of Wild Bill Hickock] Hmm, but also no mention of black aces and eights, which is the hand traditionally associated with this phrase. Jesse Sheidlower OED From douglas at NB.NET Thu Dec 11 03:54:03 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:54:03 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker In-Reply-To: <001301c3bf96$b23197a0$92631941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: At a glance, ancestry.com shows the idea of the dead man's hand from 1885, the actual phrase "dead man's hand" from 1888 (for aces and eights) and from 1905 (for jacks and eights). I searched with "jacks/eights", "aces/eights". The idiot search engine can't handle "dead man's hand" for whatever reason. -- Doug Wilson From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Dec 11 03:57:03 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:57:03 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031210225103.04a37a80@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 10:54:03PM -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > At a glance, ancestry.com shows the idea of the dead man's hand from 1885, > the actual phrase "dead man's hand" from 1888 (for aces and eights) and > from 1905 (for jacks and eights). I searched with "jacks/eights", > "aces/eights". The idiot search engine can't handle "dead man's hand" for > whatever reason. Do post the details! Once you've navigated the idiot search engine, it would be a shame to make the rest of us do so again. JTS From douglas at NB.NET Thu Dec 11 03:59:58 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:59:58 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker (addendum) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031210225103.04a37a80@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >At a glance, ancestry.com shows the idea of the dead man's hand from 1885, >the actual phrase "dead man's hand" from 1888 (for aces and eights) and >from 1905 (for jacks and eights). I searched with "jacks/eights", >"aces/eights". The idiot search engine can't handle "dead man's hand" for >whatever reason. Oops, the 1885 date is an error. 1888 is the earliest. If necessary I can post the exact sources and quotations. -- Doug Wilson From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Dec 11 04:02:03 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 23:02:03 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker Message-ID: Doug, I guess I didn't search Ancestry before? What's the 1888 cite? I knew that when you subscribed to Ancestry, it was all over for me. Next thing you know, they'll be quoting you in the NYTimes. :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:54 PM Subject: Re: Dead Man's Hand-poker > At a glance, ancestry.com shows the idea of the dead man's hand from 1885, > the actual phrase "dead man's hand" from 1888 (for aces and eights) and > from 1905 (for jacks and eights). I searched with "jacks/eights", > "aces/eights". The idiot search engine can't handle "dead man's hand" for > whatever reason. > > -- Doug Wilson > From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG Thu Dec 11 06:28:26 2003 From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 01:28:26 -0500 Subject: History of "Spanglish" in the US In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/10/2003 01:01 PM, Kathryn Remlinger wrote the following: >Can anyone suggest sources on the history of "Spanglish" in the US? I'm >particularly looking for under-grad level texts (articles, books, book >chapters) for a History of English course. Check out Carmen Silva Corval?n (AKA Carmen Silva-Corvalan), who has researched and published extensively on this matter. Her book _Language Contact and Change: Spanish in Los Angeles_ is a good place to start. Stavans is not a linguist, as has been pointed out, but he provides useful historical, sociological and other background information on Spanglish. Considering that the party line in the Spanish language establishment is that Spanglish speakers are a mob of pathetically ignorant illiterates who have betrayed their mother tongue, this is not trivial. Cheers, Scott _____________________________________________________________ Scott Sadowsky ? sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org http://www.spanishtranslator.org _____________________________________________________________ "Once introduced, a prescriptive rule is very hard to eradicate, no matter how ridiculous. Inside the writing establishment, the rules survive by the same dynamic that perpetuates ritual genital mutilations." -- Steven Pinker From douglas at NB.NET Thu Dec 11 04:56:43 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 23:56:43 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker In-Reply-To: <002f01c3bf9b$8990a520$92631941@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: "Atchison Daily Globe" [Atchison KS], 13 Apr. 1888: p. 1, col. 6: <<"I held 'aces and eights,' a dead man's hand," was a note left by a Leavenworth suicide the other day.>> ---------- "Atlanta Constitution", 28 July 1895: p. 23 (?), col. 3 [attrib. "New York Times"]: <> [title] <<.... "Finally Cherokee said:'I ain't aimin' to invest Wolfville in no superstitious fears, but I jest chronicles as a current event how I was settin' into a little porker [sic] last night an' three times straight I picks up "the hand the dead man held" -- jacks up on eights, an' it win every time.' ....">> ---------- "Daily Nevada State Journal" [Reno NV], 3 Dec. 1905: p. 12, col. 4: <> ---------- -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Thu Dec 11 06:08:10 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 01:08:10 -0500 Subject: Dead Man's Hand-poker In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031210232354.04a126a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: None of the items I've found (1888-1910) mentions Hickok. Another "dead man's hand" from the early 1890's (a couple of different anecdotes): three jacks plus two red sevens. E.g.: ---------- "Woodland Daily Democrat" [Woodland CA], 13 July 1891: p. 4 (?), col. 4 [attrib. "New York Telegram"]: <<"I have drawn a pair of sevens. I now hold jacks full on red sevens. It is a fatal hand. No one ever yet held it and left the card table alive. ....">> ---------- -- Doug Wilson From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Thu Dec 11 13:28:08 2003 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 08:28:08 -0500 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: <200312110000.APJ51105@mirapointmr3.wayne.edu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Dec 11 13:52:34 2003 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 08:52:34 -0500 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) Message-ID: From: Tom Kysilko : At 12/10/2003 11:46 AM -0500, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: :: Does every region have ? : The term I hear in MN is 'starter castle'. Growing up in the 80s in Southern Maryland, 'McMansion' was used to describe the huge houses going up at a huge rate, particularly around Potomac (on the other side of DC), at the time. Part of the connotation, as i understood it, was that they couldn't be "real" mansions, 'cause they didn't sit on more than an acre or two of land and weren't surrounded by big trees. (Southern Maryland was still largely agricultural at the time--since then it's started to get its share of McMansions itself.) I didn't hear 'starter mansion' until i was in Philadelphia for grad school. This is the first i've run across 'starter castle', but i must admit that i like it (for professionally completely non-defendable reasons :-] ). David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Dec 11 13:39:21 2003 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:39:21 -0400 Subject: starters (was: McMansions) In-Reply-To: <107f01c3bfee$2ec63850$84fbab0a@DJJ3J631> Message-ID: My favorite "starter" is "starter marriage." dInIs From: Tom Kysilko : At 12/10/2003 11:46 AM -0500, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: :: Does every region have ? : The term I hear in MN is 'starter castle'. Growing up in the 80s in Southern Maryland, 'McMansion' was used to describe the huge houses going up at a huge rate, particularly around Potomac (on the other side of DC), at the time. Part of the connotation, as i understood it, was that they couldn't be "real" mansions, 'cause they didn't sit on more than an acre or two of land and weren't surrounded by big trees. (Southern Maryland was still largely agricultural at the time--since then it's started to get its share of McMansions itself.) I didn't hear 'starter mansion' until i was in Philadelphia for grad school. This is the first i've run across 'starter castle', but i must admit that i like it (for professionally completely non-defendable reasons :-] ). David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 432-3099 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 11 16:15:24 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:15:24 EST Subject: Swimsical; Comments on Etymology Message-ID: SWIMSICAL Musical, dance-ical, now swimsical? There aren't a whole lot of Google hits right now. From a review of the new movie BIG FISH: 10 December 2003, NEW YORK POST, pg. 71: _Go Fish_ _Tim Burton odyssey is swimsical & satisfying_ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY The November and December 2003 COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY issues were just received. The November issue (with "jazz," "hash house lingo," and more) is 55 pages and contains contributions from such people as Sam Clements and George Thompson. The December issue ("Compiling material for a book on _Hot Dog_--Part 1") is also 55 pages. COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY appears monthly, from October-May. A yearly individual subscription is only $15. Gerald Cohen deserves tremendous credit for compiling an enormous amount of material each month. I remember when COE issues were half the size (25 pages). A 55-pager would be a two-month double issue. Maybe I should take Gerald Cohen with me on my next trip. From caman at AMLAW.COM Thu Dec 11 16:21:33 2003 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:21:33 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Dec 2003 to 10 Dec 2003 (#2003-344) Message-ID: New format? I cannot open this in Simple Text and thus cannot read the contents.... > ---------- > From: Automatic digest processor > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 12:10 AM > To: Recipients of ADS-L digests > Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Dec 2003 to 10 Dec 2003 (#2003-344) > > This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet > Service. To view the original message content, open the attached > message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to > disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original > character set. <> > From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Dec 11 16:39:11 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:39:11 -0500 Subject: LSSU Word Banishment Message-ID: Forwarded from John Shibley of LSSU. ----- Forwarded message from John Shibley ----- WORD BANISHMENT SEASON FOR 2004 OPENS SAULT STE. MARIE, Mich. - It's time to get rid of this past year's abused and mis-used words and phrases. For every New Year's Day since 1976, Lake Superior State University has issued an annual "List of Words Banished from the Queen's English for Mis-Use, Over-Use or General Uselessness." Between now and December 15, LSSU will be accepting nominations for banishment from all over the world, covering all manner of word or phrase worthy of exile. University officials note that this year's efforts have received a pre-election year lift, but not necessarily from the world of politics. Nominations for 2004's list have been rolling in via e-mail at an average of 100 a week. "The selection committee anticipates . . . a surplus of election-year nominees," says a spokesman for the word-sifters. "But thanks to the Internet, we are already inundated with more than 5,000 declared candidates." Hundreds of words from the fields of academia, advertising, business, the military, sports, and politics have found their way onto the banishment list. Words and phrases outlawed in previous years include: My Bad (`98), Forced Relaxation (`89), Free Gift (`88), Live Audience (`83, `87, `90), and Minor Emergency Clinic (86 and 90). Last year's list featured "peel-and-eat shrimp," the noun-modifier "extreme," and the elusive redundancy "undisclosed, secret location." Nominations for 2004's list, along with compelling reasons for banishment, should be submitted early, and often, through the Internet at http://www.lssu.edu/banished. The 2004 list will be released on January 1, in time to welcome the new year. LSSU John Shibley Photographer/Writer Public Relations Office Lake Superior State University Sault Ste. Marie, MI 49783 906/635-2314 (voice) 906/635-2623 (fax) "There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know." - US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld ----- End forwarded message ----- From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Dec 11 16:47:55 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:47:55 -0500 Subject: LSSU Word Banishment Message-ID: The strategy doesn't seem to be very effective, if they had to outlaw live audience three times. Could it be that that's because live audience is a useful phrase after all, distinguishing a live audience from a televised audience? Forced relaxation and minor emergency clinic are also useful terms, and I rather like my bad. In other words, I am not entirely sympathetic with the LSSU's list. It may be an effective public relations strategy for them, though. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 11:39 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: LSSU Word Banishment Forwarded from John Shibley of LSSU. ----- Forwarded message from John Shibley ----- Words and phrases outlawed in previous years include: My Bad (`98), Forced Relaxation (`89), Free Gift (`88), Live Audience (`83, `87, `90), and Minor Emergency Clinic (86 and 90). Last year's list featured "peel-and-eat shrimp," the noun-modifier "extreme," and the elusive redundancy "undisclosed, secret location." From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Thu Dec 11 17:35:46 2003 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:35:46 -0500 Subject: LSSU Word Banishment In-Reply-To: <20031211163911.GA1352@panix.com> Message-ID: Can't somebody please ask Mr. Shibley and his colleagues to drop "the Queen's English" from the list title? It's our English too! And it's too bad they wanted to banish "my bad"; it's one of my favorite apologies. Come to think of it, I'll copy this note to Mr. Shibley myself. At 11:39 AM 12/11/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Forwarded from John Shibley of LSSU. > >----- Forwarded message from John Shibley ----- > >WORD BANISHMENT SEASON FOR 2004 OPENS > >SAULT STE. MARIE, Mich. - It's time to get rid of this past year's abused >and mis-used words and phrases. > For every New Year's Day since 1976, Lake Superior State >University has issued an annual "List of Words Banished from the Queen's >English for Mis-Use, Over-Use or General Uselessness." Between now and >December 15, LSSU will be accepting nominations for banishment from all >over the world, covering all manner of word or phrase worthy of exile. > University officials note that this year's efforts have received a >pre-election year lift, but not necessarily from the world of politics. >Nominations for 2004's list have been rolling in via e-mail at an average >of 100 a week. > "The selection committee anticipates . . . a surplus of >election-year nominees," says a spokesman for the word-sifters. "But thanks >to the Internet, we are already inundated with more than 5,000 declared >candidates." >Hundreds of words from the fields of academia, advertising, business, the >military, sports, and politics have found their way onto the banishment list. > Words and phrases outlawed in previous years include: My >Bad (`98), Forced Relaxation (`89), Free Gift (`88), Live >Audience (`83, `87, `90), and Minor Emergency Clinic (86 and 90). Last >year's list featured "peel-and-eat shrimp," the noun-modifier "extreme," >and the elusive redundancy "undisclosed, secret location." > Nominations for 2004's list, along with compelling reasons for >banishment, should be submitted early, and often, through the Internet at >http://www.lssu.edu/banished. > The 2004 list will be released on January 1, in time to welcome >the new year. > > LSSU > > > > > >John Shibley >Photographer/Writer >Public Relations Office >Lake Superior State University >Sault Ste. Marie, MI 49783 > >906/635-2314 (voice) >906/635-2623 (fax) > > >"There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. >We also know there are known unknowns; >that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. >But there are also unknown unknowns - > the ones we don't know we don't know." > >- US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld > >----- End forwarded message ----- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 11 18:28:33 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:28:33 EST Subject: Nassau Guardian to be digitized Message-ID: Barry, Thanks for your suggestion. We hopefully will have the Nassau Guardian available over the course of the next year. The Sporting Life suggestion is great as well. Do you mean the American version? Mark Paper of Record (I congratulated Paper of Record for its work on digitizing THE SPORTING NEWS. I suggested that it also digitize SPORTING LIFE...I keep checking www.newspaperarchive.com for its progress on digitizing the JAMAICA GLEANER, but, sadly, it doesn't look like much has been done in the last few months....I suggested that Paper of Record do the TRINIDAD GUARDIAN, to help on "calypso" and various foods that I recently posted. The NASSAU GUARDIAN is not the same newspaper, but will definitely offer valuable Caribbean cuisine research help. Nice work, if they do it--Barry Popik) (LIBRARY OF CONGRESS) The Nassau guardian. Nassau, Bahamas : M. Moseley, v. : ill. (chiefly advertisements) ; 60 cm. Began in 1844. Brief Description: The Nassau guardian and Bahama Islands advocate and intelligencer [microform]. Nassau, Bahamas : Nassau Guardian, -1949. v. -year 105, no. 120 (Apr. 19, 1949). The Nassau guardian [microform]. Nassau, Bahamas : Nassau Guardian Pub. Ltd., 1949-1967. v. Year 105, no. 121 (Apr. 20, 1949)-year 124, no. 26 (Dec. 30, 1967). Brief Description: The Nassau guardian and observer [microform]. [Nassau, Bahamas] : Nassau Guardian Ltd., 1968. v. Year 124, no. 27 (Jan. 2, 1968). Brief Description: The Nassau guardian and Bahamas observer [microform]. [Nassau, Bahamas] : Nassau Guardian Ltd., 1968-1971. v. Year 124, no. 28 (Jan. 3, 1968)-year 127, vol. 31 (Jan. 2, 1971). The Nassau guardian [microform]. Nassau, Bahamas : Nassau Guardian Ltd., 1971- v. Year 127, vol. 32 (Jan. 4, 1971)- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 11 20:31:23 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:31:23 -0500 Subject: McMansions (was: Boughten bread) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:09 PM -0500 12/10/03, Dave Wilton wrote: > > Here in the Santa Cruz area there is a vegetarian restaurant called >> "Dharma's". Originally, some twenty years ago or so, it had been named >> "McDharma's", until Ronald McDonald & Co. took umbrage and sued. >> Being a commercial application, perhaps they had a legally justifiable >> defense of trademark, but not a good sense of humor. > >McDonald's would seem to be justified in this one. Both are restaurants (or >McDonald's at least has pretenses at being one). The chief purpose of >trademark law is to distinguish one product from another, so businesses in >the same industry are the most vulnerable to trademark infringement. > >The decision in the "McSleep" suit is questionable. AFAIK, McDonald's is not >in the hotel business. > >Suing a dictionary for including "McJob" would simply be silly and probably >laughed out of court. Not to say that McDonald's might not try... And speaking of Raven--does anyone know if the "McDavid" chain in Jerusalem (and maybe Tel Aviv--I can't remember), which I assume are kosher fast food emporia, are licensed by McDonald's? For all I know, they're a subfranchise of Mickey (a.k.a. Moishe) D's. L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 11 21:15:24 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:15:24 -0500 Subject: LSSU Word Banishment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:47 AM -0500 12/11/03, Baker, John wrote: > The strategy doesn't seem to be very effective, if they had >to outlaw live audience three times. Could it be that that's >because live audience is a useful phrase after all, distinguishing a >live audience from a televised audience? Forced relaxation and >minor emergency clinic are also useful terms, and I rather like my >bad. > > In other words, I am not entirely sympathetic with the >LSSU's list. It may be an effective public relations strategy for >them, though. > >John Baker > I'm wondering what mortal sin was committed by "peel-and-eat shrimp". I think I know what they are, as well as what they aren't (shrimp that are already peeled or shelled before they are served), and I'm not sure how else they would be singled out more efficiently and elegantly (shrimp with shells still on? shrimp that need to be peeled?). Maybe it's a question of whether you call those plasticky coverings "shells" rather than "peels", which is fine, except "shell-and-eat shrimp" sounds odd to me, possibly for phonological reasons. (I shell clams, I shell mussels, but I peel rather than shell shrimp.) Or maybe it's just overuse, at least around Lake Superior. Larry From dsgood at VISI.COM Thu Dec 11 21:43:00 2003 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:43:00 -0600 Subject: McMansions In-Reply-To: <20031211030221.4FEC549F1@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Tom Kysilko wrote: > At 12/10/2003 11:46 AM -0500, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > >>Does every region have ? > > The term I hear in MN is 'starter castle'. > I haven't heard any term for it, because it hasn't come up in any conversation I remember. What I've read in the Southwest Journal (which covers Southwest Minneapolis) is "McMansion," I think. So long as we're on Minnesota terms: 1) "Soda" seems to be replacing "pop". I no longer have to remember to say "pop" instead of "soda". 2) In semi-popular books on American dialects, I've seen references to the term "boulevard strip" for the vegetated strip between street and sidewalk. The current term is "boulevard". I wonder when that changeover was complete. 3) A while ago, the City of Minneapolis officially decreed that "Nordeast Minneapolis (aka "Nordeast") should be called "Northeast Minneapolis." Rationale: The old term was a slur against Scandinavian immigrants and their descendants. -- Dan Goodman Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Dec 11 22:43:37 2003 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:43:37 -0800 Subject: LSSU Word Banishment Message-ID: I think you've missed the point, Larry. It's not peel vs. shell or whether they have shells. The issue was that after you peel them, you DO eat them--you just don't peel them for fun and leave them on your plate. Why do you need to be told to eat them? Fritz I'm wondering what mortal sin was committed by "peel-and-eat shrimp". I think I know what they are, as well as what they aren't (shrimp that are already peeled or shelled before they are served), and I'm not sure how else they would be singled out more efficiently and elegantly (shrimp with shells still on? shrimp that need to be peeled?). Maybe it's a question of whether you call those plasticky coverings "shells" rather than "peels", which is fine, except "shell-and-eat shrimp" sounds odd to me, possibly for phonological reasons. (I shell clams, I shell mussels, but I peel rather than shell shrimp.) Or maybe it's just overuse, at least around Lake Superior. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 11 23:58:58 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:58:58 -0500 Subject: LSSU Word Banishment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:43 PM -0800 12/11/03, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >I think you've missed the point, Larry. It's not peel vs. shell or >whether they have shells. >The issue was that after you peel them, you DO eat them--you just >don't peel them for fun and leave them on your plate. Why do you >need to be told to eat them? >Fritz > Well, I'm not sure about that. Should "Spray and Wash" be just called "Spray" because of course you're going to wash your clothes after spraying them (and not just spray them and put them back on)? How about "Wash 'n' Wear" clothes--should they just be called "Wash" clothes? I think the idea here might be that you X them and then you immediately can and do Y them. Scratch 'n' sniff movie cards. Scratch 'n' play lotto tickets. Surely there must be an _American Speech_ paper on these formations in commercial English? Larry From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Dec 12 00:17:09 2003 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:17:09 -0800 Subject: LSSU Word Banishment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What's more, "peel and eat" makes especially good sense, since it tells you that the shrimp are already cooked. (You can peel a shrimp whether it's cooked or raw.) Peter Mc. --On Thursday, December 11, 2003 6:58 PM -0500 Laurence Horn wrote: > At 2:43 PM -0800 12/11/03, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >> I think you've missed the point, Larry. It's not peel vs. shell or >> whether they have shells. >> The issue was that after you peel them, you DO eat them--you just >> don't peel them for fun and leave them on your plate. Why do you >> need to be told to eat them? >> Fritz >> > Well, I'm not sure about that. Should "Spray and Wash" be just > called "Spray" because of course you're going to wash your clothes > after spraying them (and not just spray them and put them back on)? > How about "Wash 'n' Wear" clothes--should they just be called "Wash" > clothes? I think the idea here might be that you X them and then you > immediately can and do Y them. Scratch 'n' sniff movie cards. > Scratch 'n' play lotto tickets. Surely there must be an _American > Speech_ paper on these formations in commercial English? > > Larry ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 12 00:30:27 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:30:27 -0500 Subject: A Whole New Ball Game (1961) Message-ID: "A whole new ball game," surprisingly, isn't in SPORTING NEWS before the 1970s. It was first in the WALL STREET JOURNAL? I didn't find a good "whole 'nuther ball game," either. Tunisian Tumult BY DAN CORDTZ Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 24, 1961. p. 1 (2 pages): (First page of two--ed) And, perhaps most serious of all in the long run, "a whole new ball game in Algeria," as one observer here puts it, referring to the disturbing effect the new trouble is likely to have on peace talks now going on between France and the Algerian rebels in an effort to end their seven-year war. Republican Race ALAN L. OTTEN Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 7, 1964. p. 1 (2 pages) : (Pg. 14--ed.) "This is truly wide open," asserts a California Republican leader. "It's a whole new ball game." Wood, Field and Stream By OSCAR GODBOUT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 14, 1964. p. 28 (1 page): The first fish in constitutes a record and it's a whole new ball game. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Dec 12 00:45:38 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:45:38 -0500 Subject: McMansions and Mpls In-Reply-To: <3FD8E4E4.8020304@visi.com> Message-ID: Minneapolis is getting so uppity. It's still Nort' and Sout' Dakota, after all. And 'soda' may be the big-city term, but 'pop' is still used in the hinterlands of Minnesota. Gone from Minnesota lo these many years, but still in touch. Beverly OLSON Flanigan At 03:43 PM 12/11/2003 -0600, you wrote: >So long as we're on Minnesota terms: > >1) "Soda" seems to be replacing "pop". I no longer have to remember to >say "pop" instead of "soda". > >2) In semi-popular books on American dialects, I've seen references to >the term "boulevard strip" for the vegetated strip between street and >sidewalk. The current term is "boulevard". I wonder when that >changeover was complete. > >3) A while ago, the City of Minneapolis officially decreed that >"Nordeast Minneapolis (aka "Nordeast") should be called "Northeast >Minneapolis." Rationale: The old term was a slur against Scandinavian >immigrants and their descendants. > >-- >Dan Goodman >Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or >http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ >Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From vole at NETW.COM Fri Dec 12 01:26:12 2003 From: vole at NETW.COM (Joel Shaver) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:26:12 -0800 Subject: LSSU Word Banishment In-Reply-To: <200312111559437.SM01180@psmtp.com> Message-ID: How about seed-and-eat grapes or olives? :-) Don't mind me, I'm new here. Joel Shaver On Dec 11, 2003, at 3:58 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> > Well, I'm not sure about that. Should "Spray and Wash" be just > called "Spray" because of course you're going to wash your clothes > after spraying them (and not just spray them and put them back on)? > How about "Wash 'n' Wear" clothes--should they just be called "Wash" > clothes? I think the idea here might be that you X them and then you > immediately can and do Y them. Scratch 'n' sniff movie cards. > Scratch 'n' play lotto tickets. Surely there must be an _American > Speech_ paper on these formations in commercial English? > > Larry > > ----------------- It don't matter where you bury me I'll be home and I'll be free It don't matter where I lay All my tears be washed away -- Julie Miller All My Tears From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 12 03:06:58 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:06:58 -0500 Subject: Soup should be seen and not heard (1917) Message-ID: http://jerseyshorefood.com/oceancounty/tomsriver/oldtimetavern/ottapps.html "Soup should be seen and not heard." - anonymous There are 137 Google hits for "soup should be seen and not heard." It's an anti-slurpian commandment. There are 3,560 Google hits for "children should be seen and not heard." OED traces the phrase to about 1450, with "a maid should be seen and not heard." Everybody ought to have a maid. I found this while going through the Harry Franck travel ouevre. VAGAONDING DOWN THE ANDES by Harry A, Franck New York: The Century Company 1917 Pg. 10: It recalled a placard I had seen in a Texas restaurant on my journey southward: "Eat first, THEN talk," and amid the opening chorus Hays' memory harked back to a sign that once embellished a Bowery institution: "Soup should be seen and not heard." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 12 05:35:21 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:35:21 EST Subject: "Drive for show and putt for dough" (1939) Message-ID: More work on sports cliches, using THE SPORTING NEWS database, for the Fred Shapiros out there. TSN didn't help here, however. The first citation here is from Ancestry--which has it as an "old saying." There are 3,900 Google hits for "putt for dough." (ANCESTRY) 14 August 1939, BISMARCK TRIBUNE (Bismarck, North Dakota), pg. 6, col. 3: There's an old golf saying that "you drive for show--but putt for dough," and "that about tells the story," said Sarazen. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) SPORT POSTSCRIPTS PAUL ZIMMERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 2, 1940. p. 6 (2 pages): (First page--ed.) That old golf gag which says "they drive for fun but putt for dough" certainly is being borne out these days by Jimmy Demaret, the smiling Texan who is setting such a dizzy pace for the rest of the professionals in the winter money tournaments. Walker Wins Links Crown JACK CURNOW. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 6, 1943. p. 8 (2 pages) : (First page--ed.) Some golfing wag once said, "You drive for show and putt for dough!" Eaton Paces Golfers in Southland Open JACK CURNOW. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 3, 1945. p. 6 (1 page): There's an old links bromide, "You drive for show and putt for dough." Junior Girls Golf Opens Here Today The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Aug 17, 1959. p. A16 (1 page): "Drive for show and putt for dough," Anne Quast told a group of USGA junior girls championship contestants during a clinic yesterday at Manor Country Club. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 12 06:49:56 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 01:49:56 EST Subject: March Madness (1939, 1944) Message-ID: "March Madness" is a sports term that supposedly started in the high schools of the Midwest. I thought it would be a good term to check on THE SPORTING NEWS and Ancestry ("March Madness" + "basketball") databases. (GOOGLE) http://www.marchmadness.org/exp/history.htm A Brief History of March Madness Every year, as winter wanes, a curious ailment spreads across the country. The thump of basketballs, the squeak of sneakers, and the roar of the crowd are sure signals that basketball fever is with us. It's a condition called "March Madness," and it afflicts millions of people with no known cure. Where did this malady originate? A Tradition is Born "March Madness" was born in Illinois. The annual tournament of high school boys basketball teams, sponsored by the Illinois High School Association, grew from a small invitational affair in 1908 to a statewide institution with over 900 schools competing by the late 1930's. A field of teams known as the "Sweet Sixteen" routinely drew sellout crowds to the University of Illinois' Huff Gymnasium. In a time before television, before the college game became popular with the average fan, before professional leagues had established a foothold in the nation's large cities, basketball fever had already reached epidemic proportions in the Land of Lincoln. Giving It a Name Henry V. Porter, assistant executive secretary of the Illinois High School Association, was so impressed by the phenomenon that he wrote an essay to commemorate it. Entitled "March Madness," it first appeared in the Illinois Interscholastic, the IHSA's magazine, in 1939. The term struck a chord with newspapermen, who used it throughout their pages. During the tournament's "Golden Era" of the 1940's and 1950's, "March Madness" became the popular name of the event. It was an era of some of Illinois' most legendary teams, including the undefeated 1944 Taylorville squad and Mt. Vernon's unstoppable back-to-back champions of 1949 and 1950. But the one champion remembered more than any other is tiny Hebron, a school of only 99 students, which won the tournament in 1952. Making It Official The IHSA tournaments continued to grow and develop. In 1963, the tournament moved to the huge new Assembly Hall on the campus of the University of Illinois and fans witnessed the most famous finish in history, when Chicago Carver beat Centralia on a last-second shot by a substitute named Anthony Smedley. "March Madness" grew as well. Beginning in 1973, the IHSA began using the term officially in its programs and on its merchandise. In 1977, the organization enlisted veteran Chicago sportswriter and Big Ten basketball referee Jim Enright to write the official history of the boys basketball tournament. The result was March Madness: The Story of High School Basketball in Illinois. As media technology advanced, the IHSA and KOST Broadcast Sales of Chicago produced March Madness: The Official Video History of the IHSA Basketball Tournament in 1989. Both the book and video were sold nationwide. During this period, the Illinois High School Association received trademark status for the term "March Madness" and registered the trademark "America's Original March Madness." The spirit of March Madness has subsequently spread from coast to coast, as other companies and organizations, including state high school associations and manufacturers, have been licensed by the IHSA to use these trademarks. (ANCESTRY) 22 March 1935, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg.5, col. 7 ad: Spring Fever? March Madness? Our cure-all is a gay HANKIE 16 March 1944, MARION STAR (Marion, Ohio), pg. 22, col. 1: _High School Cage Teams Renew_ _Battle for State Title Tonight_ By The Associated Press COLUMBUS, March 16--"March madness," a disease which seems to go hand in hand with the high school basketball tournament, will start toward its peak in Ohio tonight. The principal "sufferers" tonight will be centered at Youngstown... 19 March 1945, ZANESVILLE SIGNAL (Zanesville, Ohio), pg. 9, col. 2: COLUMBUS, O.--(AP)--The cream of Ohioh's high school basketball crop--eight teams which have won a total of 183 games this season and lost only 12--headed today for the last lap of the annual march madness which will end Saturday night with the crowning of the 1945 state Class A and B champions. 1 March 1946, TIMES-RECORDER (Zanesville, Ohio), pg.3B, col. 4: March madness arrived early this year as basketball fans have been streaming the auditorium over the past two weeks tosee the county and sectional tournaments in the City auditorium. 14 March 1947, DIXON EVENING TELEGRAPH (Dixon, Illinois), pg. 7, col. 4: _"MARCH MADNESS"_--March Madness they call it...state championship tournament time in other words. And the "madness" isn't just confined to Illinois. Forty-six states choose champions with only California and New York abstaining. But all 48 states have some kind of championship eliminations. Some have two to four classes of meets, according to the enrollments of the schools. Fifteen states lump all schools together in one furious title race, Illinois for instance, retaininf the exciting though faint possibility that some little David may knock off a Goliath in a stunning upset. These Davids are the darlings of the neutral fans...fans whose favorites were eliminated early in the chase. Such tiny communities as Reedsville, Wis., Lyn, Minn., Farmer, Ohio, Diagonal, La., and our own Dundee have brought enduring fame to their towns through the heroic featts of their high school cagers. March Madness...truly an apt nom de plume! 14 March 1962, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 40, col. 3: MARCH MADNESS: Nearly everybody talks or writes about basketball:... (Written from Las Vegas, Nevada--ed.) 14 January 1967, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 12, col. 3: Did the December destruction set the stage for the March madness commonly called the National Intercollegiate Basketball Tournament? (Written from Chicago, Illinois--ed.) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) High-school cage fervor grabs Midwest By Dick Cooper Written for The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Mar 5, 1966. p. 10 (1 page): For schools involved, the final stages produce moments of undiluted ecstacy and devastation. "March Madness," they call it in Illinois. The phenomenon is similar in Indiana and neighboring states. March madness By Joseph C. Harsch. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Mar 5, 1970. p. 20 (1 page) What about "the Big Dance"? (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Ice Tank New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 13, 1987. p. D23 (1 page) _Duos at the Big Dance_ 12 November 1990. SPORTING NEWS, pg. 23, col. 1: _College Football_ _Hawkeyes Step Closer_ _To Big Ten's Big Dance_ From jshibley at LSSU.EDU Fri Dec 12 15:35:59 2003 From: jshibley at LSSU.EDU (John Shibley) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:35:59 -0500 Subject: LSSU Word Banishment Message-ID: Hi Beverly, The list, at least the timing of its release, derives partial inspiration from the Queen's New Years Honor List: http://www.therockalltimes.co.uk/2001/12/31/honours-list.html Hope this clears up any bad feelings. Cheers! John S At 12:35 PM 12/11/2003, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >Can't somebody please ask Mr. Shibley and his colleagues to drop "the >Queen's English" from the list title? It's our English too! And it's too >bad they wanted to banish "my bad"; it's one of my favorite apologies. > >Come to think of it, I'll copy this note to Mr. Shibley myself. John Shibley Photographer/Writer Public Relations Office Lake Superior State University Sault Ste. Marie, MI 49783 906/635-2314 (voice) 906/635-2623 (fax) "There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know." - US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Dec 12 16:26:40 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:26:40 EST Subject: PIGEON = 'sponsee' Message-ID: Another discussion group has raised the issue of the earliest use of the word PIGEON in Alcoholics Anonymous to refer to a person who is 'sponsored' by another person in the program (the SPONSOR-SPONSEE relationship is a widely recongnized and reifed aspect of the program, e.g., new members of the Program are strongly encouraged to find a person with long-term sobriety who will act as their SPONSOR, a person who will guide them, generally through daily contact, through the program). I believe that this term PIGEON used in this sense is at least 30 years old in A.A. in the United States. But apparently does not appear with very great frequency in the usual data bases. In a message dated 12/11/03 7:01:39 PM, someone writes: This paragraph appears in a novel, Lawrence Block's _Small Town_, 2003, p. 78), on the same page that also includes the useful lexical items "cruisier" ([re Christopher St. in Greenwich Village:] "at this hour on this nice a day it would be a little bit cruisier than he could stand") and "lesbian bed death". "The conventional wisdom in AA was that one ought to choose a sponsor of one's own sex, to keep sexual tension from undermining the relationship. That was fine for straights, but it wasn't that simple in gay AA, where the term _pigeon-fucker_ had been coined to label sponsors who took sexual advantage of sponsees. (He'd heard the term at his first meeting, and thought it was some kinky practice he'd somehow missed out on.)" This was the only occurrence of this form that I could locate on either Nexis or google (yes, there were 11 google hits but all seem to involve the compositional meaning alluded to in the parenthetical from the end of the passage above, as opposed to the idiomatic sense defined in the previous sentence).? Granted, the use of "pigeon" for a dupe of one sort or another is well-established in slang use, but if I'm correctly interpreting the practice of pigeon-fucking to require the AA (if not gay AA) context and the establishment of a sponsor/sponsee relationship to be exploited, it counts as a translucent, if not opaque, compound. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 12 18:02:00 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:02:00 -0500 Subject: PIGEON = 'sponsee' In-Reply-To: <190.23a87a3d.2d0b4640@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:26 AM -0500 12/12/03, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >Another discussion group has raised the issue of the earliest use of the word >PIGEON in Alcoholics Anonymous to refer to a person who is 'sponsored' by >another person in the program (the SPONSOR-SPONSEE relationship is a widely >recongnized and reifed aspect of the program, e.g., new members of >the Program are >strongly encouraged to find a person with long-term sobriety who will act as >their SPONSOR, a person who will guide them, generally through daily contact, >through the program). > >I believe that this term PIGEON used in this sense is at least 30 years old >in A.A. in the United States. But apparently does not appear with very great >frequency in the usual data bases. > >In a message dated 12/11/03 7:01:39 PM, someone writes: That someone was me, both here and on OUTiL. The same book also provides this great exchange in which a couple of characters identify and describe "Austin conditionals" (--so called from J. L. Austin's discussion of "There are some biscuits on the sideboard if you want some" in his 1956 paper "Ifs and Cans"; a.k.a. speech act conditionals). Wonder if there's an archive of excerpts of linguistic analysis from novels not related to linguistic analysis? ========= "John, if you're home, it's Roz. Come to think of it, it's Roz whether or you're home or not, but are you?" She was in the middle of another sentence by the time he got the phone to his ear. "I've always liked that construction", he said. "'If I don't see you before you leave, have a nice time.' And if do see me before then, should I have a lousy time? Odd use of the conditional, if you think about it." "Or even if you don't." (Block, _Small Town_, 104) ========== larry > > This paragraph appears in a novel, Lawrence Block's _Small Town_, >2003, p. 78), on the same page that also includes the useful lexical >items "cruisier" ([re Christopher St. in Greenwich Village:] "at this >hour on this nice a day it would be a little bit cruisier than he >could stand") and "lesbian bed death". > >"The conventional wisdom in AA was that one ought to choose a sponsor >of one's own sex, to keep sexual tension from undermining the >relationship. That was fine for straights, but it wasn't that simple >in gay AA, where the term _pigeon-fucker_ had been coined to label >sponsors who took sexual advantage of sponsees. (He'd heard the term >at his first meeting, and thought it was some kinky practice he'd >somehow missed out on.)" > >This was the only occurrence of this form that I could locate on >either Nexis or google (yes, there were 11 google hits but all seem >to involve the compositional meaning alluded to in the parenthetical >from the end of the passage above, as opposed to the idiomatic sense >defined in the previous sentence). Granted, the use of "pigeon" for >a dupe of one sort or another is well-established in slang use, but >if I'm correctly interpreting the practice of pigeon-fucking to >require the AA (if not gay AA) context and the establishment of a >sponsor/sponsee relationship to be exploited, it counts as a >translucent, if not opaque, compound. From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Fri Dec 12 19:32:27 2003 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:32:27 -0500 Subject: X 'n Y (was Re: LSSU Word Banishment) Message-ID: I agree that the idea of one quick and easy operation is not to be gainsaid by quibbles about redundancy. Could "rock 'n roll" have supplied the canonical form: pres. inf.+pres. inf. & alliteration/rhyme? Not only commercial corporations use binomial jingle modifiers. The military adopts them ("slice 'n dice") and coins them ("shoot 'n scoot" a.k.a. "fire and forget"). Se?n Fitzpatrick >> > Well, I'm not sure about that. Should "Spray and Wash" be just > called "Spray" because of course you're going to wash your clothes > after spraying them (and not just spray them and put them back on)? > How about "Wash 'n' Wear" clothes--should they just be called "Wash" > clothes? I think the idea here might be that you X them and then you > immediately can and do Y them. Scratch 'n' sniff movie cards. > Scratch 'n' play lotto tickets. Surely there must be an _American > Speech_ paper on these formations in commercial English? > > Larry > > ----------------- It don't matter where you bury me I'll be home and I'll be free It don't matter where I lay All my tears be washed away -- Julie Miller All My Tears From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 12 21:05:28 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:05:28 -0500 Subject: X 'n Y (was Re: LSSU Word Banishment) In-Reply-To: <00e401c3c0e8$6c626800$6400a8c0@FITZT1840> Message-ID: At 2:32 PM -0500 12/12/03, Se?n Fitzpatrick wrote: >I agree that the idea of one quick and easy operation is not to be >gainsaid by quibbles about redundancy. > >Could "rock 'n roll" have supplied the canonical form: pres. >inf.+pres. inf. & alliteration/rhyme? > >Not only commercial corporations use binomial jingle modifiers. >The military adopts them ("slice 'n dice") and coins them ("shoot 'n >scoot" a.k.a. "fire and forget"). > >Se?n Fitzpatrick Good point. I guess "peel 'n' eat", being neither alliterative nor rhyming, must have failed to charm the LSSU group. Maybe they'd have preferred my proposal for a fast food emporium, the Scarf 'N' Barf. larry From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Dec 12 22:01:08 2003 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:01:08 -0800 Subject: X 'n Y (was Re: LSSU Word Banishment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Friday, December 12, 2003 4:05 PM -0500 Laurence Horn wrote: > > Good point. I guess "peel 'n' eat", being neither alliterative nor > rhyming, must have failed to charm the LSSU group. Maybe they'd have > preferred my proposal for a fast food emporium, the Scarf 'N' Barf. > > larry I can't possibly top that one, and it's anticlimactic to say anything else at all, but I can't resist passing along the intelligence that, according to a colleague I read Larry's contribution to, there is a REAL, ACTUAL establishment in Moscow, Idaho, called Sharmin's Slurp 'n Burp. Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU Fri Dec 12 22:39:12 2003 From: jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:39:12 -0600 Subject: squat poison In-Reply-To: <0HPR00EC6I06W9@smtp4.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: Does anyone know the term "squat poison" for a children's tag game (much like "squat tag")? If so, please let me know the when, where, and how of the game. Thanks. Joan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 13 03:47:13 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:47:13 EST Subject: "Stick a fork in him--he's done" (Dizzy Dean, 1944) Message-ID: "STICK A FORK IN HIM--HE'S DONE" A happy all-American phrase blend of baseball and barbecue. I had found 1953, but I re-checked on the newly digitized THE SPORTING NEWS and on Ancestry ("stick" + "fork" + pitcher"). Once again, Ancestry beat THE SPORTING NEWS, and by a lot. 25 July 1944, BERKSHIRE EVENING EAGLE (Pittsfield, Berkshire, Massachusetts), pg. 5, col. 2 (Sports Roundup by Fritz Howell of the AP in New York--ed.): _Today's Jest Star_ John P. Carmichael, Chicago Daily News: Dizzy Dean as a broadcaster is tickling his listeners' ribs with this one: When a pitcher starts going haywire, either through wildness or throwing base hits, Dean chirps over the mike: "You can stick a fork in him folks--he's done." (Also in THE HERALD PRESS, St. Joseph, Michigan, and THE MARION STAR, Marion, Ohio, for the same date--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- OT: BACK TO WORK IN THE BRONX I worked today from 8:30 a.m. to 7:30 p.m. (with a half-hour lunch) in the Bronx Help Center. It re-opened yesterday (Thursday). On Tuesday, there had been an explosion. How could it possibly re-open? There are bars on the windows, no emergency alarms, no sprinklers, etc. Don't fire officials have to check? Don't they have eyes? They would put out a fire in the Triangle Factory waste basket, then invite everyone back in? Evidently so. About a week ago, I saw Al Sharpton host SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE. Paris Hilton was also on the show. Al Sharpton's running for President of the United States. SNL gave him some soft-ball sketches to show that he's a great leader for civil rights. Yes, Al Sharpton and Paris Hilton, live from New York. The best and brightest of American culture. Several years ago, I gave my "Big Apple" material to Al Sharpton and his National Action Network. I needed his help to honor the black men who called New York City "the Big Apple." I got no reply. And then I was reading the NEW YORK POST last week. There was a front-page story about Paris Hilton's farmboy. Then there was a front-page story about Trista's (THE BACHELORETTE) wedding. Then there was a story about Michaerl Jackson. Then there was a front-page story about Gwyneth Paltrow (she's have a baby). (The front page of today's newspaper--both news and sports--is about a Yankee pticher signing a multi-million-dollar baseball contract.) Then came this explosion and almost dying thing, and that was the last straw. I wrote another letter to the New York City Council speaker and various City Council Members. I asked that "Big Apple Corner" be removed for the 80th anniversary of the "Around the Big Apple" column. I mentioned my pathetic 12-year fight to honor the African-American stablehands. No one has done anything. No one has been even kind. I said that I'd almost died for the City of New York that morning. I'm Barry Popik. Aren't I part of New York? Aren't I a human being? Could someone answer me? There has been no reply. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 13 04:44:45 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 23:44:45 EST Subject: Shapiro, Miller in Sunday's NY Times Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/14/magazine/14ONLANGUAGE.html Those of us in the phrasal etymological dodge cannot rely on anybody's recollection; citations are the thing. My researcher, Kathleen Miller, accepted the mission and enlisted the aid of Fred R. Shapiro, who as editor of the Yale Dictionary of Quotations touches all the scholarly databases. Fred came up with several uses in the late 1970's in business publications. In the Winter 1977 issue of the California Management Review, William Matthews and Wayne Boucher wrote critically of a company that ''continues to attempt to achieve the established objectives -- way past the point at which, if the company had had a 'planned exit strategy,' it would have decided to terminate the venture.'' At that point I would have emitted a gleeful aha!, but Miller kept coming up with the use of the phrase by economists who cited a seminal 1970 book by Albert O. Hirschman about three strategies: ''Exit, Voice and Loyalty.'' According to a 2001 paper presented at a California conference by the Moscow economist Vadim Radaev, Hirschman postulated three strategies to deal with uncertainty caused by new formal rules: the voice strategist publicly questions the orders, the loyalty strategist complies and the exit strategist avoids the new rules. (...) Congratulations to Kathleen Miller and Fred Shapiro. From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sat Dec 13 04:59:26 2003 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 20:59:26 -0800 Subject: FW: 14.3465, FYI: New Website: Phrases in English Message-ID: I thought this might be of interest to some... Benjamin Barrett -----Original Message----- From: The LINGUIST Discussion List [mailto:LINGUIST at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of LINGUIST List Sent: Friday, 12 December 2003 4:58 PM LINGUIST List: Vol-14-3465. Fri Dec 12 2003. ISSN: 1068-4875. Subject: 14.3465, FYI: New Website: Phrases in English Moderators: Anthony Aristar, Wayne State U. Helen Dry, Eastern Michigan U. Reviews (reviews at linguistlist.org): Sheila Collberg, U. of Arizona Terence Langendoen, U. of Arizona Home Page: http://linguistlist.org/ The LINGUIST List is funded by Eastern Michigan University, Wayne State University, and donations from subscribers and publishers. Editor for this issue: Anne Clarke ========================================================================== Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:45:10 -0500 (EST) From: William Fletcher Subject: New Website: Phrases in English A new website, ''Phrases in English'' (PIE), has been launched: http://pie.usna.edu While still under development, PIE already offers much to both linguists and students, and additional features will increase its scope in the future. PIE incorporates a database of all 1-6-grams (phrases 1-6 ''words'' long) with part-of-speech (POS) codes occurring three or more times in the 100-million-word British National Corpus (BNC). One can explore English phraseology either through lists of forms and their frequencies or by searching for specific forms or collocations, e.g. 2-grams of the pattern ''ADJ work'', to find the most frequent adjectives describing work. PIE also offers a phrase pattern discovery tool, ''phrase-frames'': sets of variants of an n-gram identical except for one word (wildcard symbol *). The most frequent and productive 4-frame is ''the * of the'', with variants such ''as the end of the'', ''the rest of the'', ''the top of the'', ''the nature of the'' Over the next year PIE will add: -- Click on an n-gram in the query results to see concordances from the BNC -- POS-grams and POS-frames for studying the relative productivity of phrase structures -- Filtering by text type (domain, genre, target audience) for contrastive studies -- Query by regular expression (currently only wildcards are supported) In addition, when POS-tagging of the Michigan Corpus of Academic Spoken English (MICASE) http://www.hti.umich.edu/micase/ is complete, a similar database will be created with those data. Finally, when a substantial portion of the American National Corpus (ANC) http://americannationalcorpus.org has been released, a third parallel database will be built. Together these databases will permit comparative studies of phraseology in the principal variants of English. Please note: - ''Unfiltered'' queries which match very large datasets can take several minutes to complete. Please be patient; read the tutorials and FAQ to focus your queries. - Users who cannot access the above site may use http://kwicfinder.com/BNC/ (please let me know so we can investigate) Acknowledgements Above all I am grateful to Michael Stubbs of the University of Trier for detailed suggestions and ongoing discussions that led to the creation and refinement of this site; even the ''easy as pie'' to remember acronym goes back to him. His research assistants contributed as well: Isabel Barth implemented the original phrase-frame generator and Katrin Ungeheuer offered valuable comments on organization and user-interface for query by text-type. Finally Lou Burnard of the BNC Consortium and David Lee of MICASE granted essential permissions and provided useful feedback on the site. All user feedback will be received enthusiastically! Bill Fletcher fletcher AT usna.edu fletcher AT kwicfinder.com http://pie.usna.edu http://kwicfinder.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- LINGUIST List: Vol-14-3465 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 13 06:44:03 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:44:03 EST Subject: Chess: Wood-Pusher (1923); Evergreen Partie (1852) Message-ID: WOOD PUSHER Some chess slang. Dan (Of DAN'S PAPERS) did a story about Kasparov playing a machine. The illustration had the machine taunting the human as a "woodpusher." OED has no entry; HDAS is not there yet; Jonathon Green's CDS has "1940s+." 7 January 1923, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 7, col. 6: _"Wood Pushers" vs. All Stars._ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- EVERGREEN PARTIE My old friend, Sam Sloan, is just as nutty and bizarre as ever. This letter is in Google Groups. "Evergreen Partie" could possibly be recorded. Subj: [sloanschesslist] The Evergreen Party Date: 12/12/2003 3:29:13 PM Eastern Standard Time From: sloan at ishipress.com Reply-to: sloanschesslist at yahoogroups.com To: Sam at samsloan.com Sent from the Internet (Details) The Evergreen Party Here is a story I have never told previously to anybody, not even to my mother, my wives or my children. It is about the time I formed a political party. I called it "The Evergreen Party". By the time I finish this, you will understand why I have never told anyone about this. It was 1973 and the City of New York was in great turmoil. Mayor John Lindsay was unpopular and unlikely to be re-elected and a couple of Mafia guys were trying to take over. Abe Beame was the leading candidate but seemed to be incompetent. At the same time, I was a big time operator. I had my own stock brokerage firm, a registered broker dealer, Samuel H. Sloan & Co. I was trading over 500 stocks at the same time and making big money. My funds were virtually unlimited. This was before the SEC moved in and closed me down. So, I decided to run for Mayor of New York City, figuring that I could win the election. I had enough money to run an effective campaign and Lindsay and his opponents were weak. To do this I needed a political party. So, I named it "The Evergreen Party". Every chess player in the world knows what the Evergreen Partie is, but if anybody out there reading this does not play chess, I will let you in on it. The Evergreen Partie is the name of a famous chess game, perhaps the most famous game of chess ever played. It was played in 1852. Every grandmaster in history has studied and played over this game. World Chess Champion Garry Kasparov recently published new analysis of it. It is called "Evergreen" because the game is so complex and beautiful, that every time somebody analyzes it they find something new. Here is the game: [Event "Evergreen Partie"] [Site "Berlin"] [Date "1852.??.??"] [White "Anderssen, Adolph "] [Black "Dufresne, Jean"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "C52"] [Round "?"] 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4 Bxb4 5. c3 Ba5 6. d4 exd4 7. O-O d3 8. Qb3 Qf6 9. e5 Qg6 10. Re1 Nge7 11. Ba3 b5 12. Qxb5 Rb8 13. Qa4 Bb6 14. Nbd2 Bb7 15. Ne4 Qf5 16. Bxd3 Qh5 17. Nf6+ gxf6 18. exf6 Rg8 19. Rad1 Qxf3 20. Rxe7+ Nxe7 21. Qxd7+ Kxd7 22. Bf5+ Ke8 23. Bd7+ Kf8 24. Bxe7+ 1-0 http://www.angelfire.com/games3/AJs01Downloads/html_stuff/anddufrpg0.html I realized of course that nobody who was not a chess player would know that the Evergreen Party was the name of a chess game. It is rare for a chess game to have a name. The only other examples are "The Immortal Game" and "The Game of the Century". The name, "The Evergreen Party", had a nice and attractive ring to it, so I decided to give that name to my political party. Since then, the Greens Party, which did not exist in 1973, has effectively co-opted that name. (...) From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Dec 13 17:59:44 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:59:44 -0500 Subject: "Stick a fork in him--he's done" (Dizzy Dean, 1944) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >"STICK A FORK IN HIM--HE'S DONE" > > A happy all-American phrase blend of baseball and barbecue. > I had found 1953, but I re-checked on the newly digitized THE SPORTING >NEWS and on Ancestry ("stick" + "fork" + pitcher"). Once again, Ancestry beat >THE SPORTING NEWS, and by a lot. ~~~~~~~ Along similar lines: We happened on the last minute of a (?)game show last night just as the emcee was saying, "Put a pat of butter on it. This show is toast!" A. Murie From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 13 18:28:02 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:28:02 -0500 Subject: fork-sticks and toast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:59 PM -0500 12/13/03, sagehen wrote: > >"STICK A FORK IN HIM--HE'S DONE" >> >> A happy all-American phrase blend of baseball and barbecue. >> I had found 1953, but I re-checked on the newly digitized THE SPORTING >>NEWS and on Ancestry ("stick" + "fork" + pitcher"). Once again, >>Ancestry beat >>THE SPORTING NEWS, and by a lot. > ~~~~~~~ >Along similar lines: >We happened on the last minute of a (?)game show last night just as the >emcee was saying, "Put a pat of butter on it. This show is toast!" >A. Murie Which for me, to return to the sports metaphors, brings to mind a rather unsuccessful defensive back for the New York Giants a while back named Elvis Patterson. He was universally known as "Toast" Patterson because he was so often "burned" (beaten for long and/or touchdown passes). larry From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Sat Dec 13 21:49:11 2003 From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 16:49:11 -0500 Subject: Millionaire Family? Message-ID: Anyone ever run across "millionaire (or "millionaire's") family," meaning a family that includes both male and female children (i.e., one in which clothes, etc. cannot be passed down)? -- Evan Morris words1 at word-detective.com www.word-detective.com From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Dec 13 21:58:19 2003 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:58:19 -0800 Subject: fork-sticks and toast In-Reply-To: <200312131028.1aveuK1A63NZFlq0@merlin> Message-ID: > >We happened on the last minute of a (?)game show last night just as the > >emcee was saying, "Put a pat of butter on it. This show is toast!" This would seem to have a different connotation than I've heard before. To me, when something is called "toast" it means more "done for" than simply "done" or over. More like "I'm in big trouble here." Has this changed to meaning merely over and quite benign? Rima From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 14 00:41:05 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 19:41:05 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Abstract Expressionism" In-Reply-To: <010601c3c135$e27b6170$15ab8e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: abstract expressionism (OED 1952) 1936 _Parnassus_ Apr. 28 The fourth floor is devoted to the non-geometrical abstract stuff: ... the movement, "abstract expressionism", from Gauguin to Kandinsky. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 14 01:06:07 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:06:07 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Ethnocentric" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ethnocentric (OED 1900) 1899 _Amer. Anthropologist_ I. 433 As the perception of relation proceeds, the lowly egocentric system becomes ethnocentric and then democentric. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 14 01:17:28 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:17:28 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Ethnocentric" Message-ID: >From the Newark(OH.) Daily Advocate, February 9, 1892. page ?, column 2: > Sam Clements Original Message ----- From: "Fred Shapiro" To: Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 8:06 PM Subject: Antedating of "Ethnocentric" > ethnocentric (OED 1900) > > 1899 _Amer. Anthropologist_ I. 433 As the perception of relation > proceeds, the lowly egocentric system becomes ethnocentric and then > democentric. > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 14 01:34:05 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:34:05 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Ethnolinguistic" In-Reply-To: <001901c3c1e0$0d5dec00$fc20a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: ethnolinguistic (OED 1920) 1917 _Geographical Journal_ Sept. 237 Achille Dardano ... Carta Etnico-Linguistica. ... In some respects the ethno-linguistic colouring has been revised and modified, and the position and tinting of the insets have been changed. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 14 03:57:41 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:57:41 -0500 Subject: Churrasco, Stone Soup, Empanada (1917) Message-ID: MISC.: I'll have to go to Washington on Monday to get two visas. I'll also be at the Library of Congress, if anyone wants anything. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ VAGABONDING DOWN THE ANDES: BEING THE NARRATIVE OF A JOURNEY, CHIEFLY AFOOT, FROM PANAMA TO BUENOS AIRES by Harry A. Franck New York: The Century Company 1917 OED has 1939 and 1949 for "churrasco." There are over 162,000 Google hits. I finally got the the NYPL to finish this book. It's one of Franck's longest (over 600 pages) and best. You've got to love the Quichua bread recipe on page 255. I'll also add the long "stone soup" (see ADS-L archives) on pages 396-397. Pg. 255: Amid the culinary operations suited to my case they gave me in detail the recipe of the _choclo tandas_--Quichua bread, probably used before the Conquest--that finally rounded off the repast late in the evening. Forthe benefit of housewives permit me to pass on the information: Cut off the kernels of green corn while still small and fairly soft. Crush them to a pulp--under a round stone on a broad flat one out beneath the thatches eaves, if it desired to keep the local color intact--sprinkling water lightly on the mass from time to time. WHen the whole has been reduced to a somewhat adhesive dough, wrap in cornhusks rolls of the stuff about the size and shape of an ear of corn and tie with strips of husk. Sit down on the earth floor in a corner of the hut--driving off the persistent guinea-pigs with any weapon at hand--and drop these packages one by one into a kettle of boiling water supported by three stones. Let boil from twenty minutes to a half hour--depending on the energy with which fagots have been gathered during the day--taking care that none of the gaunt curs prowling about between the legs of the cook and through other unexpected openings thrust their noses into the kettle, as they would be sure to be burned. Those who succeed in beginning the task while daylight still lingers should also beware any of the family chickens climbing to a convenient shoulder and springing in to the pot, as this would result, not in choclo tanda, but in _choclo tanda con gallina_, which is a far more expensive dish. Pg. 264: The first price covers a dozen delicacies, such as "patitas con arroz--pigs' feetlets with rice," fried brains, liver, or _chupe_, the Irish-stew of the Andes. Pg. 288: ...He prepared me a half-dozen _obleas_,--those saucer-shaped capsules of the Andean pharmacopoeia--of bismuth, prescribed a diet of _chochoca molida_--the Quichua-Spanish name for a thin cornmeal gruel--which might be substituted by chuno ingles, a sickly-sweet liquid starch--or wheat or rice soup, and assured me that I would be completely recovered in the morning. Pg. 308: This _chuno_--_chunu_, in Quichua--is the chief vegetable of Andean market-places and the principal food of the Indians of the Sierra. Pg. 325: ...unless it be some rare local delicacy, such as _asado de chivito_,--roast leg of young goat. Pg. 345: Here _cancha_, or toasted, ripe, shelled corn did duty as bread, and each helping of beef was flanked by boiled _chuno_, or small, frozen potatoes. Then there were _camotes de la sierra_, one of the several species of the potato family unknown in other lands, a soft, sweetish, mushy tuber of the shape of a large peanut, which it was a la mode to pick from the plate with the fingers, and dip before each bite into the general bowl of _aji_, the Incaic peppers so beloved of the ancient Peruvians. Pg. 356: The poncho-clad proprietor proceeded with fitting gravity to serve me a thoroughly (Pg. 357--ed.) peruvian meal, of which the chief ingredient was a _churrasco_, or steak, not of beef, as I at first fancied, but of llama, a favorite Huancavelican dish which would not exactly win the unstinted praise of an epicure. ("You want Mcllama with that?"--ed.) Pg. 396: There runs an Andean anecdote that well illustrates this characteristic. one of their own race, who had served in the army and learned other things without forgetting the ways of his own people, came at night to an Indian hut and requested lodging. When this was granted in the customary manner--merely by not being refused--he asked for food. "Manam cancha," came the expected reply. "Well, sell me something and I will cook for myself." "Manam cancha." The soldier was well aware that there were plenty of supplies hidden away in the hut. He knew, also, the Indian temperament. "Well, I suppose I'll have to get along on a chupe de guijarros," he sighed, using Spanish to make his speech more impressive. "A stone soup!" mumured the household, betrayed by astonishment into understanding a tongue they pretended not to know. "Yes, it is what we use in the army when there is nothing better." He wandered down to the mountain stream below the hut and, returning with a dozen large smooth pebbles, washed them carefully, and laid them out on his bundle. "You won't mind lending me an olla?" he murmured to the wall of expressionless faces about him. A woman brought the kettle in silence. The soldier, huming a barrack-room ballad, half-filled the pot with water, set it over the fire, dropped in the stones one by one, and squatted on his heels with a sigh of contentment. By and by he borrowed a wooden spoon and tasted the concoction from time to time, throwing the residue back into the kettle in approved Andean fashion. "You don't happen to have a bit of salt?" he murmured, after a time, to the family now gathered close around him watching this possible miracle silently but intently. "Cachi? That we have," said the woman, handing him a piece of purple rock, which he beat up and sprinkled into the now steaming pot. "Too bad I haven't a few potatoes to put in," he droned, as if to himself, "it would help the flavor." The old woman shambled away into the darkness of a far corner, and came back some time later to thrust silently toward him a handful of small potatoes, her eyes glued on the miraculous pot. When these were about half-boiled the soldier again broke off his song to mumur: "This is going to be one of the finest chupes de guijarros I've ever made. All it lacks now is a bit of aji to give it life." Pg. 397: The old woman muttered something to one of the ragged girls beside her, and the latter went to dig two red peppers out of the thatch. "A piece of cabbage would make it perfect," sighed the soldier. The Indians, too engrossed in the production of a stone soup, and too slow of mind to have caught up yet with the course of events, brought to light a small cabbage. By this time they were so consumed with curiosity that the old man asked innocently: "But do you make a stone soup without meat?" "Ah, to be sure, a strip of charqui always improves it," replied the soldier indifferent;y, "but..." A girl was sent to fetch a sheet of sun-dried beef, which the former conscript cut up slowly and dropped bit by bit into the now savory-smelling chupe. A half-hour later he lifted the kettle off the fire, the old woman handed him a gourd plate, and some cold boiled yuca as bread, and having given half to the family, he ate the stone soup with great relish--all except the dozen smooth, round stones at the bottom of the olla. Pg. 533: While we were swallowing chunks of this and of _empanada_, some one discovered that it was Christmas Eve. (See ADS-L archives. OED has 1939 and Merriam-Webster has "circa 1922" for "empanada"--ed.) Pg. 539: We ate great chunks of _empanisado_, and an hour after the best meal we should have jumped to accept an invitation to a fifteen-course dinner. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Dec 14 17:24:46 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:24:46 -0500 Subject: "Stay the Course" Message-ID: In addition to giving well-deserved credits to Fred Shapiro and Kathleen Miller, Safire's column this week asks about "stay the course," which he suggests may be rooted in a nautical metaphor. While he may be right, legal usage is also a possible source. Here are two early uses: "The defendant, by the practice of the court, has a right to surrender his principal, until eight days in term have elapsed after the return of the writ. This being the first day of the term, the defendant does not stand in need of our interference to make the surrender. If that be made in time, the proceedings in this suit will be stayed of course, on a proper application for the purpose." Ellis v. Hay, 1 Johns. Cas. 334 (N.Y.Sup. 1800). "I conceive that the true sense and sound construction of the acts of assembly, relative to this subject, require that the time which passed prior to the first, and subsequent to the last, act, suspending the operation of the limitation act, must be reckoned in computing the time the limitation act has run against the plaintiffs' right of action, before he commenced his suit; and that the suspending acts operated only to interrupt and stay the course of the act of limitations for the times respectively mentioned by them, and did not establish any other period than was before established for the commencement of its operation." Hicks' Ex'rs v. Pouncey, 1 Brev. 115, 3 S.C.L. 115, 1802 WL 521 (S.C.Const.App. Apr 1802). Admittedly, there is a problem with this possible origin: "Stay the course" in a legal sense means a halt or suspension of a legal proceeding. "Stay the course" in the modern sense means to persevere in a course of action to its conclusion. John Baker From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Dec 14 18:20:33 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:20:33 -0600 Subject: Bubba Bubba Bubba Message-ID: For those interested in interesting names and the role of humor in language, here's one about a man who changed his name to Bubba Bubba Bubba: _St. Louis Post-Dispatch_, Dec. 1, 2003, Section B (Metro), p. 3/1-3: title: "Name Change is Bubba-licious for Springfield, Ill., Man": "SPRINGFIELD, Ill. -- What's in a name? If you're the former Raymond Allen Gray Jr., only one word - Bubba. "The Springfield native legally changed his name this month to reflect his childhood nickname. His new first name? Bubba. His new middle name? Bubba. One guess what his new last name is. "The name change won't be hard to get used to because he has long been known as 'Bubba' or 'Bubby' Gray, said Bubba Bubba Bubba, 39. "Then a co-worker in the Illinois secretary of state's office started calling him Bubba Bubba Bubba in jest. Later another co-worker mistakenly thought that was his real name. "Bubba's new name became official Nov. 20. He's got a new drivers license. He said the reaction has been mostly positive." Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 14 20:48:58 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:48:58 EST Subject: Saddam hiding in hidden "Spider Hole." Message-ID: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/14/sprj.irq.main/index.html Unkempt, 'haggard' Saddam found in hidden hole near Tikrit Sunday, December 14, 2003 Posted: 3:13 PM EST BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- After months on the run from coalition forces, a disheveled Saddam Hussein was found hiding in a hidden hole near a farmhouse and was captured without firing a shot, coalition authorities announced Sunday. (...) (Hiding in a hidden hole? Who would have thought that he'd HIDE in a HIDDEN hole?--ed.) (...) Found hiding in a 'spider hole' The soldiers found Saddam hiding in what they called a "spider hole," six-to-eight feet deep, equipped with a rudimentary ventilation system and covered with bricks and dirt. Spider hole is the U.S.. a military term for such a camouflaged tunnel or hole in which an enemy can hide. (...) "Spider hole" is not in OED. There are almost a thousand Google hits, and tons of hits today....Spiderman could not be reached for comment. AOL is just as crazy and biased as ever. The "Welcome to AOL" screen runs the story along with two other stories--about FRIENDS stars and Christmas treats. All three stories get equal time on the screen. AOL adds: "Bush Promises 'Justice.'" Thanks for the quotes, AOL. Wouldn't want to be misled by "Bush promises justice." From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Dec 14 22:02:59 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:02:59 -0500 Subject: Saddam hiding in hidden "Spider Hole." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > "Spider hole" is not in OED. There are almost a thousand Google hits, > and tons of hits today....Spiderman could not be reached for comment. It is in the SOED. I first heard the term when I was in the Army, mid-80s. I suspect, but don't have the citations to prove it, that it dates to WWII. The use of spider-holes was a tactic used by Japanese snipers--but the term could have been applied retroactively. Until now, I only new the term as a type of fighting position, dug to be used in an ambush. It will be interesting to see if this incident spawns a new sense meaning a hiding place, as opposed to a place from which to spring an ambush. The metaphor is one of a spider that digs a hole and lies in wait for prey to come by as opposed to spinning a web. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 14 23:39:56 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:39:56 -0500 Subject: Saddam hiding in hidden "Spider Hole." Message-ID: Dave wins the prize. From the Zanesville(OH) Signal, February 1, 1945; page 12, column 1: <> {This was a story about the 96th Infantry in the Philippings} Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Wilton" To: Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Saddam hiding in hidden "Spider Hole." > > "Spider hole" is not in OED. There are almost a thousand Google hits, > > and tons of hits today....Spiderman could not be reached for comment. > > It is in the SOED. > > I first heard the term when I was in the Army, mid-80s. I suspect, but don't > have the citations to prove it, that it dates to WWII. The use of > spider-holes was a tactic used by Japanese snipers--but the term could have > been applied retroactively. > > Until now, I only new the term as a type of fighting position, dug to be > used in an ambush. It will be interesting to see if this incident spawns a > new sense meaning a hiding place, as opposed to a place from which to spring > an ambush. > > The metaphor is one of a spider that digs a hole and lies in wait for prey > to come by as opposed to spinning a web. > > --Dave Wilton > dave at wilton.net > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 14 23:40:31 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:40:31 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Microcomputer" In-Reply-To: <200312141724.hBEHOqn14413@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: microcomputer (OED3 1968) 1963 _Wash. Post_ 1 Mar. D8 All this would take is a clever surgeon to insert a microcomputer into the brain that would provide unlimited memory. 1964 _Microelectronics and Reliability_ Sept. 142 Microcomputer comes off the line. _Electronics_, p. 14 (Nov. 1963). Last week, completion of the first of the microelectronic computers for the Improved Minuteman ICBM was announced by the Autonetics division of North American Aviation. [I HAVE NOT CHECKED THE 1963 ARTICLE IN _ELECTRONICS_ TO SEE IF THE WORD OCCURS THERE] Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 14 23:50:55 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:50:55 -0500 Subject: "Stay the Course" Message-ID: I should also add my congrats to Fred and Kathleen. The earliest "stay the course" reference I can find is in Christine Ammer's Am. Heritage Dictionary of Idioms, talking about a 1916 horse race. Has this been antedated? And why the nautical sense that Safire referred to? SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Baker, John" To: Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 12:24 PM Subject: "Stay the Course" > In addition to giving well-deserved credits to Fred Shapiro and Kathleen Miller, Safire's column this week asks about "stay the course," which he suggests may be rooted in a nautical metaphor. While he may be right, legal usage is also a possible source. Here are two early uses: > > "The defendant, by the practice of the court, has a right to surrender his principal, until eight days in term have elapsed after the return of the writ. This being the first day of the term, the defendant does not stand in need of our interference to make the surrender. If that be made in time, the proceedings in this suit will be stayed of course, on a proper application for the purpose." Ellis v. Hay, 1 Johns. Cas. 334 (N.Y.Sup. 1800). > > "I conceive that the true sense and sound construction of the acts of assembly, relative to this subject, require that the time which passed prior to the first, and subsequent to the last, act, suspending the operation of the limitation act, must be reckoned in computing the time the limitation act has run against the plaintiffs' right of action, before he commenced his suit; and that the suspending acts operated only to interrupt and stay the course of the act of limitations for the times respectively mentioned by them, and did not establish any other period than was before established for the commencement of its operation." Hicks' Ex'rs v. Pouncey, 1 Brev. 115, 3 S.C.L. 115, 1802 WL 521 (S.C.Const.App. Apr 1802). > > Admittedly, there is a problem with this possible origin: "Stay the course" in a legal sense means a halt or suspension of a legal proceeding. "Stay the course" in the modern sense means to persevere in a course of action to its conclusion. > > John Baker > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 14 23:53:07 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:53:07 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Diskette" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: diskette (OED 1973 Oct.) 1973 _N.Y. Times_ 23 Jan. 51 The International Business Machines Corporation yesterday introduced a machine that enters data into a computer by using a new reusable storage device called the diskette. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Dec 15 00:24:43 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:24:43 -0500 Subject: "Stay the Course" In-Reply-To: <00bd01c3c29d$27652560$fc20a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Sam Clements > Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 6:51 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Stay the Course" > > > I should also add my congrats to Fred and Kathleen. > > The earliest "stay the course" reference I can find is in > Christine Ammer's > Am. Heritage Dictionary of Idioms, talking about a 1916 horse race. Has > this been antedated? And why the nautical sense that Safire referred to? A "stay" is a rope that supports a mast, esp. on a square-rigged vessel. It is found in various nautical phrases like "to miss stays" (to fail to come about). One could easily assume that "stay the course" has something to do with this, although the earliest citations I'm aware of refer to racing, not sailing. From douglas at NB.NET Mon Dec 15 00:57:20 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:57:20 -0500 Subject: "Stay the Course" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Brooklyn Daily Eagle", 29 Aug. 1886, p. 1, col. 2: "International Sculling Races": <> ---------- I suppose this is the sense in question: quasi-transitive "stay" = "remain [for]"/"endure" as in "stay the course", "stay the distance". In the 'opposite' sense with "stay" = "restrain"/"halt", it's "stay the course OF [something]". -- Doug Wilson From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Dec 15 02:46:25 2003 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herb Stahlke) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 20:46:25 -0600 Subject: "Stay the Course" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031214194944.046b46b0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: MSNBC.com has another of those grammar quizzes that tell us more about what Americans think grammar is about than about how grammar works. Mostly usage. http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/Features/Quiz/Quiz.aspx?QuizID=51 Herb From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 15 03:13:25 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:13:25 -0500 Subject: Spider Hole (1941, 1970) Message-ID: Oh, all right. I trudged through the rain to NYU to get this, from ProQuest. Damn you, Saddam! An interesting "spider hole" citation was also recorded in a journal OED should have heard of called AMERICAN SPEECH. It was written by someone named "Barnhart." (JSTOR) Of Matters Lexicographical: Keeping a Record of New English, 1963-1972 Clarence L. Barnhart American Speech, Vol. 45, No. 1/2. (Spring - Summer, 1970), pp. 98-107. Pg. 103: A barrage of new military terms, whose exact senses were not always clear, were used by the press, radio, and television: _gunship_. _medevac_, _airmobile_, _fleshette_, _firebase_, _claymore mine_, _Lazy Dog_, _incinderjell_, _Aircav_, _punji stick_, _spider hole_, _smart bomb_, _search-and-destroy_, _DMZ_, and _H and I_ (for _harassment and interdiction_). (PROQUEST) Photo Standalone 1 -- No Title The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 16, 1941. p. 2 (1 page): _SPIDER HOLE_--Soldiers at Camp Ord, Calif., one of the Nation's largest Military encampments, are learning to be expert camofleurs. Here two of the men demonstrate the Army's new "spider hole" method of hiding a soldier. Top--Corpl. George Jones points to the place where Private Dennis Duniphin is concealed. Lower--Up pops Duniphin, ready for action. Contest Based on Walt Disney's 'Fantasia' Once More Focuses Attention on Problem -- Belmont's Oils and the Clavilux By EDWARD ALDEN JEWELL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 8, 1941. p. X7 (1 page) Barse Miller continues to express himself in the medium as effectively as he does in oil. The thirty-one papers here assembled are for the most part very vigorously brushed, the technique "free," the mood romantic. (...) Excelllent also, to cite a few more examples, are...and "Spider Hole." Article 4 -- No Title By Homer Bigart. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Dec 17, 1944. p. B3 (1 page): Generally, however, they are snug in their spider holes and must be dug out with bayonet and grenade. Pacific Echoes GENE SHERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 4, 1945. p. 2 (1 page): On the knoll they found nearly 100 Jap spider holes, a sort of a circular fox hole into which the diminutive Nips can crouch. Pacific Echoes GENE SHERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 25, 1945. p. 2 (1 page) Va. Sergeant Uses 4 Bullets, Bayonet To Down 6 Japs The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jul 25, 1945. p. 3 (1 page): Suddenly six of them sprang from their "spider holes" and charged the patrol. Tear gas used again in Vietnam; Previous ban recalled Dense undergrowth By Takashi Oka Special correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Oct 11, 1965. p. 2 (1 page): The tunnel was found to hav been abandoned, but the 174rd (sic) hopes before the operation ends to prove that tear gas is a more humane weapon than bombs or grenades tossed into tunnels, spider holes, or bunkers. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 15 04:26:29 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 23:26:29 -0500 Subject: Ladino (1840); Soup House (1850); Ice House (1859) Message-ID: A few notes before I travel across four states at 4 a.m. to get a visa for Ghana. NYU is open until 3 a.m. during finals week, but when I came here yesterday, ProQuest was down for maintenance. I now see that the databases haven't been improved. I'll check the LOS ANGELES TIMES again later this week...I'm expecting 1950s "Margarita" and "Screwdriver." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ LADINO A WINTER IN THE WEST INDIES, DESCRIBED IN FAMILIAR LETTERS TO HENRY CLAY, OF KENTUCKY, BY JOSEPH JOHN GURNEY Second Edition New York: Negro Universities Press 1969 Originally published in 1840 by John Murray, London Pg. 6 (June 1, 1840): We were amused, one morning, by watching the motions of a great shark, called, from its known discernment and cunning, the "Sea lawyer." (OED has 1811, then 1876 for "sea lawyer"--ed.) Pg. 220 (July 1, 1840): In the much agitated case of the Amistad, the decision of the local courts of Connecticut, against the delivering up of the slaves, was grounded, as I understood, on the fact that these persons were not Ladinos--i. e. true Cuban slaves--but Bozals, who are no slaves at all, in the eye of the Spanish law. (OED's "ladino" has 1863 for "a stray animal," 1877 for "in Central America, a mestizo or a white person," and 1889 for the Sephardic Jewish language. Is the Amistad decision/"ladino" on WESTLAW?--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SOUP HOUSE IMPRESSIONS AND EXPERIENCES OF THE WEST INDIES AND NORTH AMERICA IN 1849 by Robert Baird Philadelphia: Lea & Blanchard 1850 OED has 1861 for "soup house" and 1839 for "soup kitchen" (see ADS-L archives). Pg. 52 (Antigua): The stranger visiting St. John's should certainly visit an institution there, denominated the Soup House--an institution which is, all circumstances considered, one of the most creditable to be found in the West Indies. Like most other establishments in St. John's having for their beneficent object the relief of human want, and the alleviation of human suffering, or the improvement of human nature, this institution is mainly indebted for its origin and foundation, and subsequent progress, to the exertions of the Rev. Archdeacon Hal- (Pg. 53--ed.) berton--a clergyman whose beneficent efforts, in the cause of Christian benevolence, all classes in the island agree in eulogising. The Soup House is so called from its having originated in a humble endeavour to supply soup to the indigent--its origin being so lowly that the first boiling or brewing took place under the shade of a tamarind-tree still in existence. To the soup or kitchen department there has been added an infirmary, a separate sailor's hospital in a different part of the town, and near the sea, and a lazar-house for the reception of patients deformed by that awful species of leprosy which attacks the black population (at least I did not see any white or coloured victims) in these islands. When I visited the institution, there were one hundred and thirty patients in the infirmary and sailors' hospital, and nearly thirty in the lazar-house; but these are of course in addition to the numerous body receiving outdoor relief. Pg. 135: ...--was asked by a genuine Yankee whether any of "these fixings"--pointing to a dish of tolerably cooked artichokes--was grown in the "old country." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ICE HOUSE THE WEST INDIES AND THE SPANISH MAIN by Anthony Trollope Gloucester: Alan Sutton Publishing Limited 1985 First Published 1859 OED's "ice house" has 1687 for "a structure..in which ice is stored," and 1857 for "a hut made of ice or snow." Pg. 155: And here it may be well to explain this very peculiar, delightful, but too dangerous West Indian institution. Ny-the-by, I do not know that there was any ice-house in Kingston, Jamaica. If there be one there, my friends were peculiarly backward, for I certainly was not made acquainted with it. But everywhere else--at Demerara, Trinidad, Barbados, and St. Thomas--I was duly introduced to the ice-house. There is something cool and mild in the name, which makes one fancy that ladies would delight to frequent it. But alas! a West Indian ice-house is but a drinking-shop--a place where one goes to liquor, as the Americans call it, without the knowledge of the feminine creation. It is a drinking-shop, at which the draughts are all cool, are all iced, but at which, alas! they are also all strong. The brandy, I fear, is as essential as the ice. A man may, it is true, drink iced soda-water without any concomitant, or he may simply have a few drops of raspberry vinegar to flavour it. No doubt many an easy-tempered wife so imagines. But if so, I fear that they are deceived. Now the ice-house in Bridgetown seemed to me to be peculiarly well attended. I look upon this as the effect of the white streets and the fusty shops. A GLIMPSE OF THE TROPICS OR, FOUR MONTHS CRUISING IN THE WEST INDIES by E. A. Hastings Jay London: Sampson Low, Marston & Company, Limited 1900 Pg. 28 (Barbados): We drove to the Ice-house in the centre of the town (famous for flying-fish and West Indian cocktails), where I was to spend the first night before moving to Harrison College, which, through the kindness of the masters, was my headquarters during my visit to the islands. Pg. 277 (The Blue Mountains): On the broad platform or "barbecue" used for drying the coffee we performed our toilet, shivering with cold in the mountain air. (So much for West Indian BBQ--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 15 05:17:31 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 00:17:31 -0500 Subject: Safire on "Spider Hole" Message-ID: Ummm, ahhhhhhh..."spider hole" was in the historical NEW YORK TIMES. You write a letter to the editor. Anyone. Me, I can barely control myself after reading the City section celebrate itself for 10 great years covering New York City. (That's how long it's been. I don't deserve fire exits.) http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/15/opinion/15SAF1.htm OP-ED COLUMNIST >From the 'Spider Hole' By WILLIAM SAFIRE Published: December 15, 2003 (...) Another useful bit of information is the origin of "spider hole," a phrase used by Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez to describe the dugout hiding place in which the fugitive Saddam was cowering. This is Army lingo from the Vietnam era. The Vietcong guerrillas dug "Cu Chi tunnels" often connected to what the G.I.'s called "spider holes" ? space dug deep enough for the placement of a clay pot large enough to hold a crouching man, covered by a wooden plank and concealed with leaves. When an American patrol passed, the Vietcong would spring out, shooting. But the hole had its dangers; if the pot broke or cracked, the guerrilla could be attacked by poisonous spiders or snakes. Hence, "spider hole." (...) From douglas at NB.NET Mon Dec 15 05:42:07 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 00:42:07 -0500 Subject: Safire on "Spider Hole" In-Reply-To: <474D37F5.2540CE72.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: >... if the pot broke or cracked, the guerrilla could be attacked by >poisonous spiders or snakes. Hence, "spider hole." This is very unlikely as an explanation for the name, IMHO. Why would such a story be put forth? Surely "spider hole" means a pit covered by a trapdoor ... i.e., a hole like that inhabited by a "trapdoor spider" ... at least that would be anybody's assumption unless there is strong evidence otherwise. I think it's the size and shape of the hole and its door or cover which gives the "spider hole" its name. The original type holds (of course) a spider, and the hole is the spider's home, where it keeps its infant offspring and maybe its latest catch and that's about it. The military version holds a soldier and his necessities. Like the spider, he can ambush weaker creatures from the hole ... and it also provides concealment from stronger creatures. "Spider hole" = "camouflaged foxhole" is in MW3. Are ratholes, foxholes, and priest holes so named because of dangers to the occupants from rats, foxes, and priests respectively? -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 15 07:28:23 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:28:23 EST Subject: Nose Tackle (1977); No-Huddle (1984) Message-ID: The OED came out with its latest list of revisions/additions on December 11th, but I still haven't received it in an e-mail. Maybe today (Monday). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- NOSE TACKLE "Clone the nose?" --Woody Allen, SLEEPER OED has 10 September 1978 WASHINGTON POST for "nose tackle." 21 December 1977, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 23, col. 3: LOOK FOR Curly Culp to be some place other than Houston next season. The big nose tackle is very unhappy about his contract not being renegotiated by the Oilers. 28 January 1978, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 13, col. 1: Nose tackle Rubin Carter complained when grits were missing (Col. 2--ed.) from his breakfast menu and running back Otis Armstrong found reasons to lodge a beef, under Gradishar's guidance, when he discovered cockroaches where they were not intended to be. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- NO HUDDLE OED has 12 October 1958 for the adjective and 11 October 1984 for the noun. 29 October 1984, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 52, col. 1: No huddle. No running backs. Five speedy and interchangeable wide receivers on the outside. (Col. 3--ed.) But like a good cook with a special recipe, Cooley isn't giving too many of his seecret ingredients, although he admits the key to the whole setup is the no-huddle concept. (No. The key to the whole concept is having Jerry Rice to throw to--ed.) From mlv at POBOX.COM Mon Dec 15 17:07:30 2003 From: mlv at POBOX.COM (Michael Vezie) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:07:30 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Microcomputer" In-Reply-To: <20031215050303.6AD6E4564@majesty.pobox.com> Message-ID: >Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:40:31 -0500 >From: Fred Shapiro > > microcomputer (OED3 1968) > 1963 _Wash. Post_ 1 Mar. D8 All this would take is a clever surgeon to > insert a microcomputer into the brain that would provide unlimited memory. Forgive me for butting in if I'm not welcome (no linguistic education or anything), but that seems to be describing a nanocomputer, not what we think of now as a microcomputer. It seems to me that it wouldn't make sense to use that as an antedating of "microcomputer". But maybe I'm wrong. I'll go back to lurking now. Michael From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Mon Dec 15 17:47:11 2003 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:47:11 -0500 Subject: Spider Hole (1941, 1970) Message-ID: In Vietnam, a camouflaged cover or lid was an essential element of a spider hole, distinguishing it from a fox hole. In the ideal, what makes a spider hole a spider hole is that one could stand on top of it and not see it, and yet the occupant could quickly pop up the lid, shoot, and drop the lid back down. Bunkers, always covered, could be camouflaged, too, but they were distinguished from fox holes and spider holes by being larger and usually reinforced. It will warm the cockles of many a heart on this list to know that these terms were not used with scientific rigor either in the field or as translated in the press. >From descriptions of Saddam's hiding place, I'd say it could be called a bunker, but spider hole seems more appropriate. How about updating "priest hole" to "tyrant hole"? Incidentally, is "camofleur" in the 1941 citation correct, anywhere? The French for "to camouflage (disguise)" is "camoufler". AHD4 has "camouflager" as the English for "one who camouflages". Se?n Fitzpatrick Violence may not solve things, but it can sure as hell settle them. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM Sent: Sunday, 14 December, 2003 22:13 Subject: Spider Hole (1941, 1970) (PROQUEST) Photo Standalone 1 -- No Title The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 16, 1941. p. 2 (1 page): _SPIDER HOLE_--Soldiers at Camp Ord, Calif., one of the Nation's largest Military encampments, are learning to be expert camofleurs. Here two of the men demonstrate the Army's new "spider hole" method of hiding a soldier. Top--Corpl. George Jones points to the place where Private Dennis Duniphin is concealed. Lower--Up pops Duniphin, ready for action. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 15 18:49:46 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:49:46 -0500 Subject: December's OED News; Saddam & Hot Dogs Message-ID: DECEMBER'S OED NEWS Greetings from the Library of Congress. As expected, the December OED News letter arrived today. "Panna cotta" I gotta do now? Subj: Oxford English Dictionary News Date: 12/15/2003 7:48:32 AM Eastern Standard Time From: "TOWSEY, David" To: oednews-l at oed.com Reply-To: worldinfo at oed.com Sent from the Internet (Details) I am writing to let you know that the latest issue of OED News is now available at http://dictionary.oed.com/newsletters/2003-12/, in both HTML and PDF format. In addition to John Simpson's selection of words with interesting etymologies, which I mentioned in an earlier email, this issue of the newsletter includes an interview with Abigail Reynolds, the OED's Artist in Residence. This is a new enterprise for the Dictionary, and promises to be a thought-provoking few months, as should be apparent from Abigail's conversation with my colleague Philip Durkin. As usual, we also include a list of Appeals for help with particular words: for example, do you recall having read of someone being described as "pig-ugly" before 1983? Or did you make "panna cotta", or see it on a menu, before 1989? If you can help with any of the words listed, please e-mail oed3 at oup.com OED News contains articles by editors, researchers, and contributors on their work for the OED, and regular updates on the progress of the ?35 million/US$55 million revision programme, and is published quarterly. We will let you know by e-mail as soon as each issue is published, to keep you informed about the latest news and developments on the OED. I hope that you enjoy reading OED News. Peter Gilliver Associate Editor, Oxford English Dictionary =================================================== Visit our web site at http://www.oed.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ OT: SADDAM & HOT DOGS Hot dogs???? At least he wasn't eating a "hero." http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA47THG8OD.html Dec 15, 2003 Candy Bars, Hot Dogs and Dirty Dishes in Saddam's Hideaway By Alexandar Vasovic Associated Press Writer ADWAR, Iraq (AP) - The yard was a mess, the laundry wasn't done, the pantry was bare and the only art on the wall was a poster of Noah's Ark. Saddam Hussein's hideaway on a farmhouse in northern Iraq looked more like a derelict property abandoned by squatters than the lavish palaces he had lived in for years. ___ In the makeshift kitchen, a small fridge contained a few Bounty candy bars, some hot dogs and a can of 7-UP. There was old bread on a counter, leftover rice in a pot and dirty dishes in the sink. ___ From mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 15 19:09:55 2003 From: mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:09:55 -0500 Subject: trying to cancel at one address Message-ID: I sent the appended message from my old email address, at an account that I still use. I didn't get a bounce on it, but the mail keeps coming. Someone help, please. (I'm not leaving the list, just switching the subscription to my office e-dress.) -- Mark A. Mandel ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:09:58 -0500 From: Mark A Mandel To: LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: signoff ADS-L signoff ADS-L From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Dec 15 20:07:20 2003 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:07:20 -0500 Subject: Soup House (1850) Message-ID: Hadn't occurred to me that this might be an antedating: New Soup House. [headline] [the managers acknowledge contributions; they gave out ?this forenoon? 2831 rations.] The time of distribution is from 9 o?clock till 11. The Columbian, February 18, 1817, p. 2, col. 1; [a soup house, in Franklin street, near the Arsenal; 800 supplied; others turned away; plans for doubling the quantity of soup; request for donations] N-Y G&GA, February 18, 1817, p. 2, col. 1; [report from the managers of the soup house] N-Y G&GA, March 11, 1817, p. 2, col. 1; National Advocate, March 12, 1817, p. 2, cols. 4-5 The passages in [] are paraphrases, not direct quotations, but the Feb. 18 headline is a direct quote, and the phrase "soup house" no doubt does appear in the other stories as well. I will check upon request. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM Date: Sunday, December 14, 2003 11:26 pm Subject: Ladino (1840); Soup House (1850); Ice House (1859) > A few notes before I travel across four states at 4 a.m. to get > a visa for Ghana. > NYU is open until 3 a.m. during finals week, but when I came > here yesterday, ProQuest was down for maintenance. I now see that > the databases haven't been improved. I'll check the LOS ANGELES > TIMES again later this week...I'm expecting 1950s "Margarita" and > "Screwdriver." > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > LADINO > > A WINTER IN THE WEST INDIES, > DESCRIBED IN FAMILIAR LETTERS TO HENRY CLAY, OF KENTUCKY, > BY JOSEPH JOHN GURNEY > Second Edition > New York: Negro Universities Press > 1969 > Originally published in 1840 > by John Murray, London > > Pg. 6 (June 1, 1840): We were amused, one morning, by watching > the motions of a great shark, called, from its known discernment > and cunning, the "Sea lawyer." > (OED has 1811, then 1876 for "sea lawyer"--ed.) > > Pg. 220 (July 1, 1840): In the much agitated case of the Amistad, > the decision of the local courts of Connecticut, against the > delivering up of the slaves, was grounded, as I understood, on the > fact that these persons were not Ladinos--i. e. true Cuban slaves-- > but Bozals, who are no slaves at all, in the eye of the Spanish law. > (OED's "ladino" has 1863 for "a stray animal," 1877 for "in > Central America, a mestizo or a white person," and 1889 for the > Sephardic Jewish language. Is the Amistad decision/"ladino" on > WESTLAW?--ed.) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > SOUP HOUSE > > IMPRESSIONS AND EXPERIENCES OF THE WEST INDIES AND NORTH AMERICA > IN 1849 > by Robert Baird > Philadelphia: Lea & Blanchard > 1850 > > OED has 1861 for "soup house" and 1839 for "soup kitchen" (see > ADS-L archives). > > Pg. 52 (Antigua): The stranger visiting St. John's should > certainly visit an institution there, denominated the Soup House-- > an institution which is, all circumstances considered, one of the > most creditable to be found in the West Indies. Like most other > establishments in St. John's having for their beneficent object > the relief of human want, and the alleviation of human suffering, > or the improvement of human nature, this institution is mainly > indebted for its origin and foundation, and subsequent progress, > to the exertions of the Rev. Archdeacon Hal- (Pg. 53--ed.) berton-- > a clergyman whose beneficent efforts, in the cause of Christian > benevolence, all classes in the island agree in eulogising. > The Soup House is so called from its having originated in a > humble endeavour to supply soup to the indigent--its origin being > so lowly that the first boiling or brewing took place under the > shade of a tamarind-tree still in existence. To the soup or > kitchen department there has been added an infirmary, a separate > sailor's hospital in a different part of the town, and near the > sea, and a lazar-house for the reception of patients deformed by > that awful species of leprosy which attacks the black population > (at least I did not see any white or coloured victims) in these > islands. When I visited the institution, there were one hundred > and thirty patients in the infirmary and sailors' hospital, and > nearly thirty in the lazar-house; but these are of course in > addition to the numerous body receiving outdoor relief. > > Pg. 135: ...--was asked by a genuine Yankee whether any of "these > fixings"--pointing to a dish of tolerably cooked artichokes--was > grown in the "old country." > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > ICE HOUSE > > THE WEST INDIES AND THE SPANISH MAIN > by Anthony Trollope > Gloucester: Alan Sutton Publishing Limited > 1985 > First Published 1859 > > OED's "ice house" has 1687 for "a structure..in which ice is > stored," and 1857 for "a hut made of ice or snow." > > Pg. 155: And here it may be well to explain this very peculiar, > delightful, but too dangerous West Indian institution. Ny-the-by, > I do not know that there was any ice-house in Kingston, Jamaica. > If there be one there, my friends were peculiarly backward, for I > certainly was not made acquainted with it. But everywhere else-- > at Demerara, Trinidad, Barbados, and St. Thomas--I was duly > introduced to the ice-house. > There is something cool and mild in the name, which makes one > fancy that ladies would delight to frequent it. But alas! a West > Indian ice-house is but a drinking-shop--a place where one goes to > liquor, as the Americans call it, without the knowledge of the > feminine creation. It is a drinking-shop, at which the draughts > are all cool, are all iced, but at which, alas! they are also all > strong. The brandy, I fear, is as essential as the ice. A man > may, it is true, drink iced soda-water without any concomitant, or > he may simply have a few drops of raspberry vinegar to flavour it. > No doubt many an easy-tempered wife so imagines. But if so, I > fear that they are deceived. Now the ice-house in Bridgetown > seemed to me to be peculiarly well attended. I look upon this as > the effect of the white streets and the fusty shops. > > > A GLIMPSE OF THE TROPICS > OR, FOUR MONTHS CRUISING IN THE WEST INDIES > by E. A. Hastings Jay > London: Sampson Low, Marston & Company, Limited > 1900 > > Pg. 28 (Barbados): We drove to the Ice-house in the centre of the > town (famous for flying-fish and West Indian cocktails), where I > was to spend the first night before moving to Harrison College, > which, through the kindness of the masters, was my headquarters > during my visit to the islands. > > Pg. 277 (The Blue Mountains): On the broad platform or "barbecue" > used for drying the coffee we performed our toilet, shivering with > cold in the mountain air. > > (So much for West Indian BBQ--ed.) > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Dec 15 20:56:45 2003 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:56:45 -0500 Subject: e-ologism? Message-ID: I have just discovered (via my electronic in-basket) that Governor McGreevey of New Jersey has set up an electronic circular known as "Governor McGreevey's E-Genda" - Jim Landau From stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 15 22:07:11 2003 From: stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM (PL) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:07:11 -0800 Subject: present tense + "for/since" Message-ID: Hi all. I have a question on syntax for you. Can you think of any frequent idiomatic examples of a present tense, instead of the present perfect, followed by "for" or "since" to talk about duration ("...since 1930... for 80 years now"). Do you often use the present in such structures in your own idiolect? What differences can you find in using the present over the "more regular" perfective tense? Thanks, Pete __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 15 22:08:45 2003 From: stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM (PL) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:08:45 -0800 Subject: "home attendant" Message-ID: Hello to all linguists and language lovers. Can you help me define the words below? What does a "home attendant" do exactly? Is it usually a live-in professional? Does s/he take care of a person also from a medical point of view? What term would you more commonly use to refer to a person who keeps an elderly person company, goes out with him/her for a daily walk, helps with a few chores, etc. Is "home help / -er" used at all in the US? Is it synonymous with "home attendant"? What duties are involved in this type of job? Best, Pete __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Dec 16 00:05:15 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:05:15 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Microcomputer" In-Reply-To: <20031215170730.GA19285@mlvezie.org> Message-ID: > >Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:40:31 -0500 > >From: Fred Shapiro > > > > microcomputer (OED3 1968) > > 1963 _Wash. Post_ 1 Mar. D8 All this would take is a clever surgeon to > > insert a microcomputer into the brain that would provide > unlimited memory. > > Forgive me for butting in if I'm not welcome (no linguistic > education or anything), > but that seems to be describing a nanocomputer, not what we think > of now as a > microcomputer. It seems to me that it wouldn't make sense to use > that as an > antedating of "microcomputer". > > But maybe I'm wrong. I'll go back to lurking now. No, you're not wrong. This is a distinctly different sense of the word. The cites in the OED (1968-84) all refer to what we would now call a "personal computer" or "PC". This sense was common in the early days when Commodore 64s ruled the earth and Apple IIs roamed free, but faded as PCs became more powerful and edged "mini-computers" (the size of a large desk) and even "mainframes" (the size of a room) out of the picture. You see the size progression: mainframe to mini to micro. This 1963 sense, as well as the 2000 sense in the OED3, refer to something even smaller. From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 16 01:31:36 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:31:36 EST Subject: the best dictionaries Message-ID: A friend asked me, "How do you know what the BEST dictionaries are?" How do professional linguists and lexicographers answer that question? From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 16 01:34:23 2003 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:34:23 -0500 Subject: the best dictionaries In-Reply-To: <73.39055a6a.2d0fba78@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 08:31:36PM -0500, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > A friend asked me, "How do you know what the BEST dictionaries are?" > > How do professional linguists and lexicographers answer that question? Well, professional lexicographers just say, "Mine is the best." :-) Jesse Sheidlower OED From Vocabula at AOL.COM Tue Dec 16 01:45:03 2003 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:45:03 EST Subject: the best dictionaries Message-ID: > A friend asked me, "How do you know what the BEST dictionaries are?" > How do professional linguists and lexicographers answer that question? >Well, professional lexicographers just say, "Mine is the best." Coming in the fall of 2004, "The Dictionary of Disagreeable English: Ignominies of Grammar and Usage," appendix A of which is titled "The Fiske Ranking of College Dictionaries," which will identify the worst of them. Preorder yours today: http://www.vocabula.com/VRorder.htm Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review www.vocabula.com ______________________ The Vocabula Review A measly $8.95 a year www.vocabula.com ______________________ ? Five by Fiske: The five essays included in this volume are as follows: "The Decline of the Dictionary"; "The Perfectibility of Words" and "The Imperfectibility of People," chapters 1 and 2 of The Dictionary of Concise Writing; "Expressions That Dull Our Reason and Dim Our Insight" and "Writing That Demands to Be Read Aloud, Speech That Calls to Be Captured in Print," chapters 1 and 2 of The Dimwit's Dictionary. http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooks.htm#VRfiveby ______________________ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 United States Tel: (781) 861-1515 From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM Tue Dec 16 02:10:50 2003 From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 21:10:50 -0500 Subject: the best dictionaries Message-ID: Answers to "How do linguists and lexicographers know which is the BEST dictionary" are complicated, at least. Theory, practice, and market all impinge on the answers. The best answers evolve in discussion and argument, over time, and one can trace them in "Dictionaries: Journal of the Dictionary Society of North America" and the "International Journal of Lexicography," as well as in articles and books written over the centuries. Those interested should consider joining the Dictionary Society of North America and/or EURALEX. Membership in the former is considerably less expensive than membership in the latter. The question is an excellent one. Perhaps the 2005 issue of "Dictionaries" should be devoted to answering it -- if anyone reading this list would like to write a sustained argument in response to the question, he or she should propose an article by 15 March 2004 to Michael Adams at MAdams1448 at aol.com. From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Dec 16 02:42:44 2003 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:42:44 -0800 Subject: the best dictionaries In-Reply-To: <200312151732.1aw44d42d3NZFkN0@swallow> Message-ID: >How do professional linguists and lexicographers answer that question? You mean aside from saying whichever has my name in it? Realistically, I think we each have our preferences for various reasons - and I try to take into account the needs of the person who's asking. First of all is the question of unabridged vs desk sizes, then perhaps the need for more or less historical information, etc. Rima From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Dec 16 02:42:54 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:42:54 -0600 Subject: the best dictionaries Message-ID: I suppose the return question would be: "Best for what?" Gerald Cohen -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of RonButters at AOL.COM Sent: Mon 12/15/2003 7:31 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: the best dictionaries A friend asked me, "How do you know what the BEST dictionaries are?" How do professional linguists and lexicographers answer that question? From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Tue Dec 16 03:04:51 2003 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:04:51 -0500 Subject: the best dictionaries In-Reply-To: <73.39055a6a.2d0fba78@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > A friend asked me, "How do you know what the BEST dictionaries are?" > > How do professional linguists and lexicographers answer that question? > "What is the best dictionary?" is *almost* a nonsensical question -- it's like "What is the best pair of shoes?" The missing part of that question is "for me, for what I want to do?" Dictionaries have many uses -- not just "looking up definitions" but "discovering etymologies," "playing Scrabble," "browsing," "pronunciations," "dropping from the castle walls onto besiegers," etc. There has never been a dictionary yet that is all things to all people, and for that we should be thankful. How very boring it would be without dictionaries to argue over! (And how very large and unwieldy that all-to-all dictionary would be.) All lexicographers (and their fifth-column sympathizers in other fields) should take every opportunity to replace the notion of "The Dictionary" with specific instances actual dictionaries. It's easier, but by no means simple, to point to a particular book or books and say "This is a bad dictionary," but that is also an incomplete statement. Many people (many, many more people than I would like) use what I would consider to be "bad dictionaries" every day and suffer no lasting harm, or, truth be told, any harm at all. If you only need to know how many "c's" are in "recommend," or how to pronounce "macabre," or (heh, heh) whether you REALLY mean "disinterested" or "uninterested," it has to be a very, very bad dictionary indeed to steer you wrong. Would people who have "bad" dictionaries lead better, happier, more fulfilled and productive lives if they had "better" dictionaries? I'd like to think so (and I try very hard to convince people of this), but hard evidence is lacking. Saying this, I can hear somebody, faintly, in the distance, muttering that Johnsonian saw about "Dictionaries are like watches, the worst is better than none and even the best is not quite true." Dictionaries today are even more like watches than they were in Johnson's time. But the existence of the cheap $6 digital (that breaks the first time you forget to take it off while washing the dishes) doesn't stop the atomic-clock people from spending billions to determine the exact time down to the vacillation of a single electron. And just as the electron-vacillation technology (eventually) makes its way down to the $6 digital (or perhaps somewhere just above that point) the research that we do for the "best" dictionaries makes its way down to the book equivalent of the $6 watch. To summarize (which means [help me out here discourse-analysts] "I should have stopped typing several paragraphs back"): dictionaries are not one-size-fits-all, there is no such thing as "THE DICTIONARY," and we are in a blessed time in human history, a golden age where there is a dictionary for every need, taste, and station, so much so that we are spoiled for choice and, in fact, so much so that there is no excuse for not owning as many dictionaries as you have pairs of shoes (or at least watches). Erin McKean From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 16 04:00:54 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:00:54 -0500 Subject: Life in Spigotty Land (14 March 1908) Message-ID: The PANAMA SUN & HERALD didn't turn up a "spigotty" in a short search. Harry A. Franck's ZONE POLICEMAN 88 (1913) wasn't the first citation. I checked the SATURDAY EVENING POST, as Sam Clements suggested. It's there. This is the fifth time I've tried to send this post...I'm booked for Panama in sixty days (February 15). 14 March 1908, SATURDAY EVENING POST, pg. 3, col. 1: _LIFE IN SPIGOTTY LAND_ _Something About the Cheerful Side of Canal-Digging_ _By Samuel G. Blythe_ GET a carriage," said the man in the white duck suit, as we stood on the steps of the Tivoli Hotel, "and it will cost you twenty cents, Spigotty. I'd get a driver who can talk English, too, if I were you, instead of a Spigotty driver. it might save a row if you want to make more than one trip. "Spigotty?" Iasked. "What's Spigotty?" "Why," he replied, surprised at my ignorance, "a Spigotty is a native, of course." That was my first morning on the Isthmus. Before noon I had added the word to my vocabulary, for every American down there has cast aside the cumbrous "Panamanian." Whatever is native is Spigotty. It is the broad, comprehensive term which the men who are digging the canal have applied to the small brown persons who inhabit the Republic of Panama, their products, habits, customs, money and morals. So far as the money is concerned it is synonymous with "tin" money or "monkey" money, and means that what the Spigotty folks fondly call a dollar, the same having been minted for them in Philadelphia by our paternal and protective Government at cost, is worth fifty cents. It is a good term, too, for most of the things Panamanian look Spigotty, if you can imagine that. It comes from the earliest days of the American invasion to dig the canal, when there was nothing along what is now the populous, busy and clean Canal Zone but a few miles of jungle-grown ditch left by the French, much rusted French machinery, yellow fever, mosquitoes, dirt and desolation. The early Americans found the Panama people haughty in the possession of their new republic, which had been made over night for them by our aforesaid paternal and protective Government, we needing a republic there smaller in extent than Colombia, but most anxious to reap the benefits of intimate association with these curious people from the North, who insisted on digging a ditch across the Isthmus when there was already a railroad there, to say nothing of good _cayuco_ traveling on the Chagres River part of the way and a trail that could be used at a pinch. All Americans are alike. They don not bother to learn foregin languages when they go to a foreign country, but they force the natives to learn American. So, when the Panamanians presented themselves, if they could talk English, they prefaced their attempts to cheat the Americans out of something--it really made little difference what--with the statement, accompanied by eloquent gestures: "Spik d' English." If they couldn't they said: "No spik d' English." One or the other was the universal opening of conversation, andthose early Americnas soon classed the whole race of men who could or could not "Spik d' Eng." as "Spikities," and from that grew the harmonious and descriptive Spigotty. From douglas at NB.NET Tue Dec 16 05:02:45 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:02:45 -0500 Subject: Spider Hole (1941, 1970) In-Reply-To: <481224C6.7489696F.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: "Camoufleur" is AFAIK an OK English word: it's in English dictionaries (MW3, EB Funk & Wagnalls). BTW, I don't see it as a headword in the French Academy dictionary (although it occurs in French on the Web, apparently in expected senses). "Camofleur" is a misspelling, I think: like "camoflage" which seems to be a frequent one ... maybe because of the abbreviation "camo"? -- Doug Wilson From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 16 07:05:07 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 02:05:07 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20the=20best=20dictio?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?naries?= Message-ID: In a message dated 12/15/03 8:34:34 PM, jester at PANIX.COM writes: > Well, professional lexicographers just say, "Mine is the best." > And why should we buy yours rather than someone else's? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 16 07:15:34 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 02:15:34 EST Subject: Nose Guard (1966) and Nose Tackle (1977) Message-ID: These two Eskimos were rubbing noses, and then the jilted husband/wife comes in and makes a "nose tackle." These etymologies are simple. The newly revised OED has "nose guard" from 1974. "Nose guard" came before "nose tackle." If the "nose guard" makes a "tackle," that comes up as a "nose tackle" hit on the idiotic Ancestry search engine, making life diificult. Here's a bit more on the nose. 22 October 1966, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 37, col. 1: Gossett is especially proud of LaGrones's starring role in his movies because at "nose" guard, usually defenders are lost in the trenches of line play. 24 October 1966, CHILICOTHER CONSTITUTION-TRIBUNE (Chilicothe, Missouri), pg. 2?, col. 7: The early loss of nose guard Granville Liggins hurt the Sooners. 10 December 1966, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 7, col. 2: Nose guard John LaGrone has already been named to most of the All- (Col. 3--ed.) America teams,... 8 December 1977, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. D-10, col. 1 (AP football story): "It's become a tighter race, but it's still ours to win," New Orleans nose tackle Jim Wilks said. From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Dec 16 07:37:52 2003 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:37:52 -0800 Subject: the best dictio naries In-Reply-To: <200312152305.1aw9gN4Yy3NZFkD0@kite> Message-ID: >And why should we buy yours rather than someone else's? Because I'm the one you're asking, silly... Rima From orinkh at CARR.ORG Tue Dec 16 13:35:00 2003 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:35:00 -0500 Subject: the best dictionaries Message-ID: An interesting layman?s view about which dictionaries are best can be found at http://slate.msn.com//?id=2091949& Notice of this article was recently posted to the DSNA list. Readers of this thread may find it interesting as well. Speaking as one who has contributed to dictionaries from 7 foreign (mostly UK) and 4 US publishers, and with malice toward none of these but with prejudices toward a few: there are vast differences in the ways that publishers organize the dictionary production process, and their success at doing this ? planning the thing properly in the first place, recognizing where problems exist, and having the infrastructure in place to correct them efficiently ? has a demonstrable effect on the quality of the finished product. That said, I think that many such quality issues are not apparent to a majority of dictionary users, and it is after all they who buy dictionaries. A huge amount of consultation of other dictionaries goes on in the process of creating any given dictionary, and I have found in interesting to observe which dictionaries lexicographers regard as absolutely necessary to consult (at one extreme), and which dictionaries that are not even considered or found in dictionary publishers? offices (at the other) in this process. If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, a pretty good metric could be devised for ranking dictionaries by the frequency of this sort of consultation. But of course it would be invidious to name names. It would be nice to think that dictionaries could be rated by which names appear on the ?football team? page, as some posters have (facetiously, I think) suggested. If this is so I would have to note, with mild chagrin, that three of the four ditionaries I consult most do not have my name in them, and many that I have contributed to gather dust on my shelves! Orin Hargraves From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Dec 16 14:11:42 2003 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:11:42 -0500 Subject: the best dictionaries In-Reply-To: <73.39055a6a.2d0fba78@aol.com> Message-ID: Before I started working for OUP, I usually recommended MW10 or MW11 as a general-use dictionary, but now I just tell people they can eliminate a slew of bad dictionaries by looking up "fuck." It it's missing, don't buy. Either the word has been omitted for space reasons (meaning, to me, that the dictionary has insufficient coverage), or it has been omitted for prescriptivist, religious, or moral reasons (meaning, to me, that there may be other biases of which I am unaware). I've been looking for a politer, similar bellwether word, but I can't find a good one. I tried "ixnay" but too many good dictionaries don't have it. I am about to give a full-coverage descriptivist dictionary as a gift to my middle-class, Midwestern sister and brother-in-law, and their two children, and I fully expect all hell to break loose when they reach the F pages. The corrupting influence of the New York uncle must be maintained. Grant On Dec 15, 2003, at 20:31, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > A friend asked me, "How do you know what the BEST dictionaries are?" > > How do professional linguists and lexicographers answer that question? > From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Tue Dec 16 15:06:41 2003 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas M. Paikeday) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:06:41 -0500 Subject: the best dictionaries Message-ID: Remember the Latin adage "Timeo hominem unius libri" (I am scared of the man of one book). I was reminded of this when I read Grant's one-word test for finding the best dictionary! Sorry to sound so negative. TOM. www.paikeday.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Barrett" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 9:11 AM Subject: Re: the best dictionaries > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: Re: the best dictionaries > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Before I started working for OUP, I usually recommended MW10 or MW11 as > a general-use dictionary, but now I just tell people they can eliminate > a slew of bad dictionaries by looking up "fuck." It it's missing, don't > buy. Either the word has been omitted for space reasons (meaning, to > me, that the dictionary has insufficient coverage), or it has been > omitted for prescriptivist, religious, or moral reasons (meaning, to > me, that there may be other biases of which I am unaware). I've been > looking for a politer, similar bellwether word, but I can't find a good > one. I tried "ixnay" but too many good dictionaries don't have it. > > I am about to give a full-coverage descriptivist dictionary as a gift > to my middle-class, Midwestern sister and brother-in-law, and their two > children, and I fully expect all hell to break loose when they reach > the F pages. The corrupting influence of the New York uncle must be > maintained. > > Grant > > On Dec 15, 2003, at 20:31, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > A friend asked me, "How do you know what the BEST dictionaries are?" > > > > How do professional linguists and lexicographers answer that question? > > From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Tue Dec 16 15:23:09 2003 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:23:09 -0600 Subject: the best dictionaries/one word test Message-ID: my test word has always been "callipygous" Maybe, just because its a great word! From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Dec 16 15:22:52 2003 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:22:52 -0500 Subject: the best dictionaries In-Reply-To: <004b01c3c3e6$368228a0$4fca6395@thomaspaikeday> Message-ID: As much as I like the shelves of dictionaries at my desk, both at home and at work, I can't really recommend friends and family buy more than one. We're lucky they purchase even one! Cheers, Grant PS: Also attributed to Aquinas, but put differently: L'homme qui ne conna?t qu'un seul livre mais le poss?de ? fond est un adversaire redoutable. On Dec 16, 2003, at 10:06, Thomas M. Paikeday wrote: > Remember the Latin adage "Timeo hominem unius libri" (I am scared of > the man > of one book). I was reminded of this when I read Grant's one-word test > for > finding the best dictionary! Sorry to sound so negative. From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Tue Dec 16 16:17:55 2003 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:17:55 -0500 Subject: the best dictionaries/one word test Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:23:09 -0600 paulzjoh writes: > my test word has always been "callipygous" It is admittedly difficult to define. One man's callipygia is another's steatopygia. D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Dec 16 19:59:42 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:59:42 -0500 Subject: present tense + "for/since" In-Reply-To: <20031215220711.15561.qmail@web40614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I hear/read this only in non-native English, and not just in present tense but also in present progressive constructions: We live/are living here since 10 years (ago)/for 10 years/since 1993. Parentheses indicate optional use ('since 10 years' is very common in NNS English). At 02:07 PM 12/15/2003 -0800, you wrote: >Hi all. I have a question on syntax for you. > >Can you think of any frequent idiomatic examples of a >present tense, instead of the present perfect, >followed by "for" or "since" to talk about duration >("...since 1930... for 80 years now"). > >Do you often use the present in such structures in >your own idiolect? What differences can you find in >using the present over the "more regular" perfective >tense? > >Thanks, > >Pete > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. >http://photos.yahoo.com/ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Dec 16 23:20:19 2003 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 18:20:19 EST Subject: "home attendant Message-ID: In a message dated Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:08:45 -0800 PL asks > Hello to all linguists and language lovers. Can you > help me define the words below? > > What does a "home attendant" do exactly? Is it usually > a live-in professional? > > Does s/he take care of a person also from a medical > point of view? No, that would be a "home health aide". More exactly, a home health aide is a nursing assistant. Sometimes a state-issued Home Health Aide Certificate is required. > What term would you more commonly use > to refer to a person who keeps an elderly person > company, goes out with him/her for a daily walk, helps > with a few chores, etc. "companion" > Is "home help / -er" used at all in the US? Not that either of us know of. The closest we jbiw of is "mother's helper" which a a teenager or pre-teenager who helps a mother take care of infants and toddlers. A piad position, like a babysitter except that the parent'/guardian remains at home. - Jim Landau Judy Landau RN From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Dec 16 23:29:02 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 18:29:02 -0500 Subject: Nose Guard (1966) and Nose Tackle (1977) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 2:15 AM Subject: Nose Guard (1966) and Nose Tackle (1977) 22 October 1966, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 37, col. 1: Gossett is especially proud of LaGrones's starring role in his movies because at "nose" guard, usually defenders are lost in the trenches of line play. > > 24 October 1966, CHILICOTHER CONSTITUTION-TRIBUNE (Chilicothe, Missouri), > pg. 2?, col. 7: > The early loss of nose guard Granville Liggins hurt the Sooners. > > 10 December 1966, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 7, col. 2: > Nose guard John LaGrone has already been named to most of the All- (Col. > 3--ed.) America teams,... > > 8 December 1977, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. D-10, col. 1 (AP > football story): > "It's become a tighter race, but it's still ours to win," New Orleans nose > tackle Jim Wilks said. "Nose tackle" does appear in Ancestry just a tiny bit earlier, you just have to tweak the engine a bit. Using my "The Football Encyclopedia" by Neff and Cohen, I looked at the rosters of teams year by year before and including 1977. While I can find 'NT' next to two names on the roster of the 1974 New England Patriots, trying to link their names with 'nose tackle' in Ancestry newspapers produced no hits. Using other 'NT' names in later years produced nothing until October 23, 1977, The Marion(OH) Star, page 24, col. 6. <> I think that if you look at a program for the New England Patriots from the 1974 season, you might find 'NT' listed beside the names of Ray Hamilton and Art Moore. Why they were the first team to list such is unknown(to me). SC The first use of From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 17 00:52:17 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:52:17 -0500 Subject: Nose Guard (1966) and Nose Tackle (1977) In-Reply-To: <001401c3c42c$65f3fdc0$fc20a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: At 6:29 PM -0500 12/16/03, Sam Clements wrote: > "Nose tackle" does appear in Ancestry just a tiny bit earlier, you just >have to tweak the engine a bit. > >Using my "The Football Encyclopedia" by Neff and Cohen, I looked at the >rosters of teams year by year before and including 1977. While I can find >'NT' next to two names on the roster of the 1974 New England Patriots, >trying to link their names with 'nose tackle' in Ancestry newspapers >produced no hits. Using other 'NT' names in later years produced nothing >until October 23, 1977, The Marion(OH) Star, page 24, col. 6. > > <.....>> > >I think that if you look at a program for the New England Patriots from the >1974 season, you might find 'NT' listed beside the names of Ray Hamilton and >Art Moore. Why they were the first team to list such is unknown(to me). > Ray "Sugar Bear" Hamilton was routinely referred to as a nose tackle on the Pats, through the mid-70's. I don't remember Art Moore; maybe he'd been phased out by '76-'77. That was the great (and unexpected) season all New England football fans remember with anguish, the season snuffed out by a bad call; indeed, it was a phantom roughing the passer penalty against that very Sugar Bear himself that handed a playoff game to the Oakland Raiders. (I lived a mile away from the Foxboro Stadium that year; it was all very traumatic.) As far as why it's hard to locate other NTs (or NGs), one constraint is that only teams that play 3-4 defenses (three defensive linemen, four linebackers) have them, and there aren't many such teams. The majority of teams have always featured a 4-3 defense, with two defensive ends and a left and right tackle. The nose tackle or nose guard plays across from the center. Larry From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 17 01:47:38 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:47:38 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Nose Tackle" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: nose tackle (OED3 1978, Popik Dec. 1977, Clements Oct. 1977) 1975 _N.Y. Times_ 28 Sept. 208 If you see the position abbreviation n.t. after a player's name, realize that he is a nose tackle, like Ray Hamilton of the New England Patriots. A nose tackle is the middle man in a three-man defense and he lines up right opposite the center, nose to nose. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Dec 17 02:38:21 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:38:21 -0500 Subject: Chuck Fairbanks and "Nose Tackle" Message-ID: A theory. Barry's 1966 cites for "nose guard" are, interestingly, about the Oklahoma 'Sooners.' Chuck Fairbanks was the Oklahoma coach from 1967-1972. Chuck Fairbanks became the New England Patriots coach in 1973. The NT=nose tackle appears in print(thanks, Fred!) in 1975, and I found a source that would suggest the abbreviation appears in 1974. Coincidences? I think not. SC From dsgood at VISI.COM Wed Dec 17 03:39:51 2003 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:39:51 -0600 Subject: Swearing swearers Message-ID: This seems to be patterned on "Lying liars" . Swearing swearers and FCC's new rulebook >From TV to politics, profanity and suggestive themes have proliferated. By Patrik Jonsson http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1217/p03s02-ussc.html Is there a technical term for such playing off an existing phrase? -- Dan Goodman Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From douglas at NB.NET Wed Dec 17 04:16:58 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:16:58 -0500 Subject: Swearing swearers In-Reply-To: <3FDFD007.3020906@visi.com> Message-ID: >This seems to be patterned on "Lying liars". Which in turn is patterned on the corresponding concatenation of F-words? Or not? -- Doug Wilson From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Wed Dec 17 04:13:14 2003 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:13:14 -0800 Subject: where does the S go, in the plural Egg McMuffin? and other puzzling questions In-Reply-To: <3FD26CC1@mail.carr.org> Message-ID: reprinted (re-pixellated) without impunity from The Chronicle: McLanguage Meets the Dictionary http://chronicle.com/free/v50/i17/17b01401.htm By DENNIS BARON McDonald's wants Merriam-Webster to take its McJob and shove it. McDonald's CEO Jim Cantalupo is steamed that the latest edition of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary defines "McJob" as low-paying, requiring little skill, and providing little opportunity for advancement. Three years ago The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language ran a similar definition, and The Oxford English Dictionary includes "unstimulating" in the mix of descriptors branding McJobs as dead-end. Cantalupo calls such negative definitions "a slap in the face" to American restaurant workers. Although he insists that the word is not part of the nation's vocabulary, Cantalupo admits that McJob is no stranger to restaurant trade journals. He wants everyone -- including Merriam-Webster -- to stop using it. Merriam-Webster announced that it was sticking by its definition, which reflects the way McJob has been used for at least 17 years. Dictionary editors regularly include words far more controversial and offensive because their job is to record how the rest of us use our language, and we don't always use it politely. Jim Cantalupo isn't the first person to object to what he feels is bad language in the dictionary, nor is he the first to tell lexicographers how to define their words. For example, in 1872 A.S. Solomons protested G. & C. Merriam's definition of the verb "jew" as "to cheat." And in 1997 a grass-roots protest insisted that Merriam-Webster drop the word "nigger" from the dictionary. The NAACP joined that protest, calling for the dictionary to remove any reference to race in the word's definition. As someone whose heritage is both Jewish and South Asian, I'm particularly sensitive to the negative racial and religious vocabulary that gets tossed around both casually and vindictively. But it's not the job of dictionaries to root out offensive language or to change social attitudes, and most lexicographers are careful to warn readers when words are venomous and demeaning. Merriam had carefully marked the negative use of "jew" as insulting, and though the dictionary maker removed that verb from its Collegiate dictionaries, "to jew" can still be found in Merriam-Webster's unabridged version, where it carries the label "offensive." Merriam-Webster took the complaint against "nigger" seriously as well, revising the definition in the new Collegiate to reflect the nonracial contexts where the word sometimes occurs, as well as the fact that "its use by and among blacks is not always intended or taken as offensive." But the dictionary also affirmed its earlier conclusion that the word is typically "expressive of racial hatred and bigotry." Like others who would clean up our dictionaries, Jim Cantalupo, anxious to protect his company from bad press, will find that his linguistic protest comes too late. Most people know exactly what McJob means without a dictionary. Wildly successful business phenomena like McDonald's have a way of working their way into our language as well as our culture. In the early 20th century, Coca-Cola sued to prevent the marketing of other drinks with "cola" in their name, winning judgments against upstarts like Chero-Cola, Clio-Cola, and El-Cola but losing against Cherry-Cola, Dixie-Cola, and Koke, all of them long gone. Coke also lost its bid to prevent 7-Up from calling itself "the Un-Cola." One result of Atlanta-based Coke's domination of the cola industry is that "coke" and "co' cola" have become generic terms in the South for any soft drink. Another soft drink, Moxie, won a suit against the competitor Noxie, only to see "moxie" enter the language as an ordinary word meaning energy, guts, or chutzpah. Shredded wheat, thermos, and zipper all began as trademarked terms that morphed into everyday words as well. Manufacturers want the names of their products on everybody's lips, but they don't want those names to become everybody's property, so like McDonald's they try to regulate the way we use those names. The Xerox Corporation still takes out ads, including one in The Chronicle of Higher Education last month, admonishing readers that Xerox with a capital X can only be a proper noun (Xerox machine) or proper adjective (Xerox copy). Book and journal editors usually pay attention to these warnings, but people have been using "xerox" (lowercased) as a noun or verb -- regardless of the brand of photocopy machine they're using -- since the 1960s. Like Coke, Xerox, and zipper, McDonald's is a victim of its own success: The world's largest fast-food chain is seeing its trademark adapted into ordinary, noncommercial language, often in an unflattering way. We've gone way beyond McJob: There's McPaper, a designation for USA Today that's been around since that newspaper made its debut (the oldest OED citation for McPaper is a 1982 New York Times article). Other Mc- derivatives include McDonaldize, McDoctors, McTherapy, McWorld, and McMansion, as well as McDonald's itself, defined positively by the OED as "any service, organization, etc., likened to the McDonald's chain in some respect, esp. in operating in a highly efficient, standardized manner." Ever eager to burnish its public image, the McDonald's Corporation once hired a public-relations firm to ascertain the correct plural of the Egg McMuffin. Perhaps they were hoping to gain approval for Eggs McMuffin, on the analogy of the more upmarket eggs Benedict. But that quest went nowhere. As far as I know, the company never ruled on what eaters of the Egg McMuffin should order if they want more than one. Dictionary makers themselves can squabble over the ownership of words. The name "Webster's" was the subject of a bitter dispute in the early 20th century, with the courts ruling that G. & C. Merriam, the lineal publishing descendants of Noah Webster's dictionaries, did not have exclusive rights to the name. "Webster's" in everyday English has been synonymous with "dictionary" since Noah Webster hit it big in 1828, but perhaps because they don't want to get embroiled in further litigation, dictionaries don't record that generic meaning of the name. Although many people look to dictionaries for guidance in proper word use, these essential reference books aren't regulatory mechanisms as much as they are compilations of language practices. Dictionaries don't tell us how to use our words, they describe how we use them. Certainly the makers of dictionaries must pay attention not just to linguistic nuance, but to the impact that their work has on the course of a language. But if lexicographers allowed individuals or pressure groups to dictate definitions, then our language would be reduced to mere McWords: an English high in calories, low in meaning, requiring little skill, unstimulating -- in short, dead-end. Dennis Baron is a professor of English and linguistics at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- http://chronicle.com Section: The Chronicle Review Volume 50, Issue 17, Page B14 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Copyright ? 2003 by The Chronicle of Higher Education From stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 17 22:39:04 2003 From: stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM (PL) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 14:39:04 -0800 Subject: more on present tense + "for/since" Message-ID: Beverly--I'm not sure that the present tense can NEVER arise in native-speaker English. I recently came across a blurb written by a native speaker, in which a verb in the present tense ("enjoy" IIRC) was used in sentence with a perfective meaning, followed by "since" or "for" to express duration. I don't recall what the title of the book was. Best, Steve wrote: "I hear/read this only in non-native English, and not just in present tense but also in present progressive constructions: We live/are living here since 10 years (ago)/for 10 years/since 1993......" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Dec 18 01:09:52 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:09:52 -0600 Subject: blend: "slowly by slowly" Message-ID: For those interested in syntactic blending, here's one I heard the other day. A fellow named Rick Francona was being interviewed on MSNBC about interrogating Saddam Hussein. Getting him to reveal his secrets involves a gradual process of wearing him down, and during Francona's explanation, he said that "slowly by slowly" (something will happen, I forget just what). This is clearly a blend of "slowly" and "step by step." Gerald Cohen From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 18 01:38:45 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:38:45 -0500 Subject: blend: "slowly by slowly" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:09 PM -0600 12/17/03, Gerald Cohen wrote: > For those interested in syntactic blending, here's one I heard the >other day. >A fellow named Rick Francona was being interviewed on MSNBC about >interrogating Saddam Hussein. Getting him to reveal his secrets >involves a gradual process of wearing him down, and during Francona's >explanation, he said that "slowly by slowly" (something will happen, >I forget just what). > > This is clearly a blend of "slowly" and "step by step." > >Gerald Cohen With maybe a smidgen of "slowly but surely". Larry From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Dec 18 04:34:26 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:34:26 -0500 Subject: Holy Moley!; (1929) Message-ID: This was an attempt to antedate any possibly first use of the term 'Holy Moly' (or Moley). Since Captain Marvel first appeared in 1940, my earlier cite from 1946 didn't prove that it occured before the comic. It only antedated HDAS. These current cites only antedates HDAS as MW and OED don't list it. Using Ancestry.com, from the Gettysburg(PA) Compiler, March 27, 1929. Page 4, col. 5: (From a juvenile story) <<"Rolly polly, bright and jolly!" Maybe "Remmy," my faithful typewriter, should have spent it, "Roly poly, holy moly!">> And from the Arcadia(CA) Tribune, May 4, 1936. Page 1(I think), col. 7: (a column entitled "Headline Parade" by a R. M. Orr) < My question on this last cite would be is the "New Deal is no longer holy/to Professor Raymond Moley" a possible origin of the "Holy Moley" spelling of the term? SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Clements" To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Holy Moley!; > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 3:08 AM > > > > > > > > > William Woolfolk, 86, Writer Behind Comic-Book Heroes, Dies > > By ERIC P. NASH > > > > Mr. Woolfolk did not create new characters, but said he coined one of > the > > most famous lines in comics: Captain Marvel's exclamation "Holy Moley!" > "He > > created that so Captain Marvel would have something to say when Captain > Marvel > > was particularly astonished," said Joanna Martine Woolfolk, his third > wife. > > They were divorced in 1999. > > Those third wives! They'l believe anything ! > > From ancestry, Coshocton County Democrat (OH), March 13, 1946: > > The pudgy-cheeked, wild-haired Jimmy sat back at his familiar desk yesterday > and ejaculated: > > "Holy Moly, what we're going to do with this team! Look at that list of > backs--Pat Harder, Chief Johnson, Elmer Angeman, Paul Christman, " > > A story about the Chicago Cardinals football team. > > Sam Clements > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 18 04:39:02 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:39:02 -0500 Subject: Eurabia; The Bottom Line Message-ID: EURABIA "Given current demographic trends in what waggish Muslims now call Eurabia, and the continentals' apparent insouciance about nuclear proliferation, in what conceivable scenario are the French and Germans likely to be 'helpful' in the future?" --Mark Steyn in the NEW YORK SUN, 17 December 2003, pg. 9, col. 3. "Eurabia" has 1,530 Google hits. Most follow this NATIONAL REVIEW article: (GOOGLE) http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/comment/comment-yeor100902.asp October 9, 2002, 9:15 a.m. Eurabia The road to Munich... By Bat Yeor ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ THE BOTTOM LINE This could be the end for The Bottom Line at NYU. http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/13044.htm BOTTOM LINE IS GOING CLASS-IC ROCK By DAREH GREGORIAN December 10, 2003 -- New York University plans on turning the legendary Bottom Line nightclub into a classy place. John Beckman, a spokesman for club landlord NYU, said yesterday the school wants to convert the famed West Fourth Street music room into classrooms as soon as the space is emptied out. Last week, Judge Donna Recant ordered the club's eviction for nonpayment of $190,000. (...) "Bottom line" pre-dates my wife, Jennifer Lopez. HDAS has the September 1984 SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN as the first verb "bottom-line." OED has September 1967 for "bottom line" (under "bottom"). A check of the WALL STREET JOURNAL shows infrequent use until the 1960s. (PROQUEST) 1. PEPPER AND SALT. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 13, 1908. p. 2 (1 page) (Bad hit--ed.) 2. BRIGHTER FOR NEW HAVEN; Fiscal Year Starts With Gains That Indicate a Monthly Increase of $300,000 in Gross Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 26, 1915. p. 1 (1 page): There is, therefore, good reason to believe that the earnings for the fiscal year of the New Haven ending July 1, showing about 1/2 of 1% earned on New Haven shares, marks the bottom line for New Haven. 3. A TRULY SPECIAL SESSION Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 19, 1919. p. 1 (1 page) 4. WHOLESALE PRICES HAVE TOUCHED THEIR BOTTOM; Individual Commodities and Some Groups Are Yet Out of Line, but Average of All Prices Is Upwards-- Farm Products Make Gains Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 21, 1922. p. 9 (1 page) 5. The Road to Prosperity; Not by Free Trade Fallacies The Road to Prosperity By C. W. BARRON. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 14, 1927. p. 1 (2 pages) 6. Abreast of the Market Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 10, 1934. p. 15 (1 page) (Bad hit--ed.) 7. Price-Planning Problems; Commodity Group "Parity" Last Month More Significant Than Rising Trend of Combined Index During 1934 BY BERNARD KILGORE. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 16, 1935. p. 3 (1 page) 8. Abreast of the Market; A Stock Market Appraisal EDITED BY OLIVER J. GINGOLD. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 11, 1960. p. 25 (1 page) (Bad hit--ed.) 9. British Post Office, Profitable and Fast, Hopes to Get Better; It Will Include Rental Space In New Buildings, Emphasize Courtesy; Lessons for U.S.? British Post Office, Profitable and Fast, Hopes to Get Better BY FRANK K. LINGE Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 6, 1960. p. 1 (2 pages) (Bad hit--ed.) 10. Display Ad 23 -- No Title Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 16, 1961. p. 5 (1 page): The results--savings--show up where it's most important...on the _bottom line_. From douglas at NB.NET Thu Dec 18 05:29:24 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 00:29:24 -0500 Subject: Holy Moley!; (1929) In-Reply-To: <001f01c3c520$3bac9fa0$fc20a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: >My question on this last cite would be is the "New Deal is no longer holy/to >Professor Raymond Moley" a possible origin of the "Holy Moley" spelling of >the term? Conceivable but not likely IMHO even if the times are exactly right. The more general speculation that Raymond Moley's name (in the news) influenced the spelling tendency (without reference to this specific jingle) is more likely, of course. But it could be just coincidence, as I think "moley" is a reasonable way to spell the word from its sound. I presume "Holy Moley" is an alteration of "Holy Moses". [The alternative in HDAS, from a plant name "moly", is superficially implausible IMHO ... analogous to modern "jinx" from a bird name "jynx".] Did "Holy Moses" originate as a euphemism for something like "Holy Mother of Christ/Jesus/God"? -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 18 07:43:41 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 02:43:41 EST Subject: Trail Mix (1968, 1976, 1977) Message-ID: "Trail Mix" is not in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999). "Trail Mix" is also not in the index of Andrew F. Smith's PEANUTS (2002). OED and Merriam-Webster have 1977. (OED's entry--from Nexis--was added in December 2001.) I'll keep an eye out for "trail mix" in the LOS ANGELES TIMES (still stuck on May 1953). 12 February 1976, INDIANA EVENING GAZETTE (Indiana, Pennsylvania), pg. 16, col. 7: _The Skiers' Snack_ By Aileen Claire NEA Food Editor (...) Margie Mahoney, 23, of Anchorage, Alaska is a member of the Ladies' Cross-Countrey Team and makes her own snack food. When in competition she prefers large breakfasts and after a race she drinks hot liquids, eats raisins and oranges. At home she makes granola for breakfast. Her Skiers' Trail Mix for hiking or ski touring is made from equal amounts of raisins, dry roasted peanuts, chocolate chips or M&M's. "I mix these in a plastic bag and throw it in my back pack. It's a great energy snack." Here is Margie Mahoney's granola recipe. (...) (TRADEMARK) Typed DrawingWord Mark ORIGINAL TRAIL MIX Goods and Services IC 029. US 046. G & S: Snack food mix consisting primarily of raisins, processed sunflower seeds, processed pumpkin seeds, processed peanuts, processed cashews, processed almonds, soybean oil and/or cottonseed oil and/or canola oil and/or almond oil and salt. FIRST USE: 19680000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19770000 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 76345939 Filing Date December 7, 2001 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition September 24, 2002 Registration Number 2662697 Registration Date December 17, 2002 Owner (REGISTRANT) Hadley Date Gardens, Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 83555 Airport Blvd. Thermal CALIFORNIA 92274 Attorney of Record John H. Alspaugh Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "TRAIL MIX" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F) Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 18 08:35:46 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 03:35:46 EST Subject: Sky Hook (1971) and Rainbow Jumper (1974) Message-ID: Which came first, the "rainbow" or the "sky"? The LOS ANGELES TIMES should have coverage of Lew Alcindor's college career at UCLA in the 1960s. Was the "sky hook" invented there? Who is responsible for "rainbow jumper," and when? The mention here of "point guard," Larry Horn's mention of his UCLA classmate, and the availability of online THE SPORTING NEWS (not helpful here) got me asking about "sky hook" and "rainbow jumper." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SKY HOOK 28 January 1971, POST-CRESCENT (Appleton, Wisconsin), pg.D3, col. 3: _Lew Alcindor's_ hook shots, often referred to as "sky hooks," are things of beauty on the basketball court. West's Woes Charted as Far Out By Thomas Boswell. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: May 5, 1972. p. D2 (1 page) : When Wilt Chamberlain wants to stuff, when Kareem Abdul-Jabbar shoots his sky hook, who thinks, "Will he make it?" Milwaukee Jinx Hits Bullets By Thomas Boswell Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Nov 26, 1972. p. C12 (1 page): Jabbar scored his normal 28 points, disregarding mere human efforts to stop his sky hook. Hayes: Bullets' Gun; Only 'Sky Hook' by Jabbar More Feared in NBA Than 'E's' Turnaround Jump Shot Against Hayes, 'It's Murder' Former Knick Willis Reed: 'No One Can Stop Him' Bullets Host Pistons On Friendly Court Tonight By David-DuPreeWashington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Feb 28, 1975. p. D1 (2 pages) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- RAINBOW JUMPER Don't jump off a rainbow! Use a bridge, like Steve Brodie did! NBA Climaxes Today By Leonard Shapiro Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: May 12, 1974. p. D1 (1 page): He (Havlicek--ed.) seemingly had the game won when his 15-foot rainbow jumper over Jabbar sifted through the net with seven seconds to play. 2. Strange 76ers Show Spectrum In Revolution; This Morning Halt! Who Goes There in Philly's 76er Uniforms? By Dave Kindred. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: May 11, 1978. p. D1 (2 pages) GW Uses Magid's Offense, Glenn's Defense to Regroup, 103-52 By Russell Carter Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 29, 1978. p. D4 (1 page): Three were driving layups through traffic, another his patented rainbow jumper from the corner, and he assisted on a goal and made two steals as GW closed the half with a 40-28 lead. From jpparker at ISERV.NET Thu Dec 18 12:01:43 2003 From: jpparker at ISERV.NET (jane parker) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:01:43 -0500 Subject: Cheesed out In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20031210183655.01e72ca8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: I recently (NPR last week) heard Cheesed out used. Any thought about this and what it means. Jane Parker From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Thu Dec 18 13:04:44 2003 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:04:44 -0600 Subject: archives Message-ID: I know that "Duesy" predated the car, but are there archives that I can look this up? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Clements" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 10:34 PM Subject: Re: Holy Moley!; (1929) > This was an attempt to antedate any possibly first use of the term 'Holy > Moly' (or Moley). Since Captain Marvel first appeared in 1940, my earlier > cite from 1946 didn't prove that it occured before the comic. It only > antedated HDAS. > > These current cites only antedates HDAS as MW and OED don't list it. > > Using Ancestry.com, from the Gettysburg(PA) Compiler, March 27, 1929. Page > 4, col. 5: > (From a juvenile story) > > <<"Rolly polly, bright and jolly!" Maybe "Remmy," my faithful > typewriter, should have spent it, "Roly poly, holy moly!">> > > And from the Arcadia(CA) Tribune, May 4, 1936. Page 1(I think), col. 7: > > (a column entitled "Headline Parade" by a R. M. Orr) > > < and he violates the law, > Runs a signal, can't shift gears, > Shapely hosiery intereferes. > Hoover doesn't care for Landon > Since he cannot lay his hand on > Alfred and so run his show; > Anti-Herbie is no go. > Vandenberg for president > Is the latest increment > In the list of candidates > Swinging on the alley gates. > Favorite in Derby loses > As Bold Venture swiftly cruises > To the finish; favorites tumble > When cocksureness makes them stumble. > New Deal is no longer holy > to Professor Raymond Moley > When he joins Hugh Johnson's sally > In an anti-New Deal rally. > > > My question on this last cite would be is the "New Deal is no longer holy/to > Professor Raymond Moley" a possible origin of the "Holy Moley" spelling of > the term? > > SC > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sam Clements" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 11:27 AM > Subject: Re: Holy Moley!; > > > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 3:08 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > William Woolfolk, 86, Writer Behind Comic-Book Heroes, Dies > > > By ERIC P. NASH > > > > > > Mr. Woolfolk did not create new characters, but said he coined one > of > > the > > > most famous lines in comics: Captain Marvel's exclamation "Holy Moley!" > > "He > > > created that so Captain Marvel would have something to say when Captain > > Marvel > > > was particularly astonished," said Joanna Martine Woolfolk, his third > > wife. > > > They were divorced in 1999. > > > > Those third wives! They'l believe anything ! > > > > From ancestry, Coshocton County Democrat (OH), March 13, 1946: > > > > The pudgy-cheeked, wild-haired Jimmy sat back at his familiar desk > yesterday > > and ejaculated: > > > > "Holy Moly, what we're going to do with this team! Look at that list > of > > backs--Pat Harder, Chief Johnson, Elmer Angeman, Paul Christman, " > > > > A story about the Chicago Cardinals football team. > > > > Sam Clements > > From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 18 14:05:26 2003 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 06:05:26 -0800 Subject: Cheesed out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Something is so cheesy that it is no longer interesting, that interest quickly disappears. For me, I get cheesed out watching "reality" tv, Entertainment Tonight, etc. --- jane parker wrote: > I recently (NPR last week) heard Cheesed out used. > Any thought about > this and what it means. > > Jane Parker ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 18 15:05:02 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:05:02 -0500 Subject: Sky Hook (1971) In-Reply-To: <1c1.1311f964.2d12c0e2@aol.com> Message-ID: At 3:35 AM -0500 12/18/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Which came first, the "rainbow" or the "sky"? > The LOS ANGELES TIMES should have coverage of Lew Alcindor's college >career at UCLA in the 1960s. Was the "sky hook" invented there? > Who is responsible for "rainbow jumper," and when? > The mention here of "point guard," Larry Horn's mention of his UCLA >classmate, and the availability of online THE SPORTING NEWS (not >helpful here) got >me asking about "sky hook" and "rainbow jumper." > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >--------------------------------------------- >SKY HOOK > > 28 January 1971, POST-CRESCENT (Appleton, Wisconsin), pg.D3, col. 3: > _Lew Alcindor's_ hook shots, often referred to as "sky hooks," are things >of beauty on the basketball court. > I recall Lew Alcindor (later Kareem Abdul Jabbar) shooting those elegant sky hooks for UCLA on occasion, but I don't recall the term used until he became a pro, for the Milwaukee Bucks (whence the reference in a Wisconsin paper above--the Milwaukee papers would be good places to check as well). It was only when he graduated and began playing consistently against equally tall players that he really needed to perfect the shot. I dimly recall stories about how he practiced it over and over again in the off-season, knowing that it couldn't be blocked by his fellow 7-footers. The NCAA outlawed the dunk shot when Alcindor was about to become a sophomore in '66 and join the varsity (those were the days before freshman eligibility), so he wouldn't have what non-UCLA folks saw as an unfair advantage. Both he and Coach Wooden later claimed the ban (which was reversed after Alcindor turned pro) was a great aid for his career, as it forced him to learn a full offensive repertoire. If my timing is right, he joined the Bucks in the fall of '69, so the papers from '69 or '70 would be the likely ones to feature a first cite of "sky hook", but it was really his second year in Milwaukee, 1970-71, when the Bucks acquired Oscar Robertson and won the NBA championship, that the shot became famous. It was around that time that he became Kareem Abdul Jabbar. larry From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Dec 18 15:21:06 2003 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:21:06 -0500 Subject: archives In-Reply-To: <008a01c3c567$821937e0$5c06433f@paulz> Message-ID: On 18 Dec 2003, at 7:04, paulzjoh wrote: > I know that "Duesy" predated the car, but are there archives that I can look > this up? Not that I'm aware of, but both HDAS and OED report the 1916 Dialect Notes citation that proves the existence of the word before the invention of the Duesenberg. Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Dec 18 15:24:47 2003 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:24:47 -0500 Subject: archives In-Reply-To: <008a01c3c567$821937e0$5c06433f@paulz> Message-ID: P.S. The citation can be found at the entry "doozy." Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Dec 18 16:24:17 2003 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:24:17 -0500 Subject: tear tabs? Message-ID: UT has a host of new for expense reimbursement since the departure of John Schumaker. I have not seen , as used below, before. Are others familiar with it? What exactly is it? (The term is highlighted in the original.) Thanks, Bethany --- T-3 and must be supported by an official receipt issued by the vendor (restaurant, caterer, ticket office, etc.). If payment is made by a personal credit card, a copy of the credit card charge slip may be submitted in lieu of an official vendor receipt. Tear tabs from restaurants are not acceptable documentation for reimbursement. The --- From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Dec 18 16:31:07 2003 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:31:07 -0800 Subject: tear tabs? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't recall seeing the term "tear tab" before, but I imagine it refers to some restaurant bills that come with a small perforated section at the bottom which repeats the name of the restaurant and the printed serial number that appears at the top of the bill, and provides a blank where the customer can fill in the total amount paid. I can see why this wouldn't be acceptable proof of payment. Peter Mc. --On Thursday, December 18, 2003 11:24 AM -0500 "Bethany K. Dumas" wrote: > UT has a host of new for expense reimbursement since the > departure of John Schumaker. I have not seen , as used below, > before. Are others familiar with it? What exactly is it? (The term is > highlighted in the original.) > > Thanks, > Bethany > > --- > T-3 and must be supported by an official receipt issued by the vendor > (restaurant, caterer, ticket office, etc.). If payment is made by a > personal credit card, a copy of the credit card charge slip may be > submitted in lieu of an official vendor receipt. Tear tabs from > restaurants are not acceptable documentation for reimbursement. The > --- ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Dec 18 16:42:38 2003 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:42:38 -0500 Subject: tear tabs? In-Reply-To: <1374284175.1071736267@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Peter A. McGraw wrote: >I don't recall seeing the term "tear tab" before, but I imagine it refers >to some restaurant bills that come with a small perforated section at the >bottom which repeats the name of the restaurant and the printed serial >number that appears at the top of the bill, and provides a blank where the >customer can fill in the total amount paid. I can see why this wouldn't be >acceptable proof of payment. Sounds right. Bethany From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 18 19:55:52 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:55:52 -0500 Subject: Spider Hole (1941, 1970) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031215235229.049d0c20@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >"Camoufleur" is AFAIK an OK English word: it's in English dictionaries >(MW3, EB Funk & Wagnalls). BTW, I don't see it as a headword in the French >Academy dictionary (although it occurs in French on the Web, apparently in >expected senses). > >"Camofleur" is a misspelling, I think: like "camoflage" which seems to be a >frequent one ... maybe because of the abbreviation "camo"? > I'd guess the abbreviation and new spelling of "camoflage" both come from the pronunciation, which usually has a schwa or open o in the penult, never (in English) an [u]. An underlying "o", often representing a linking vowel, is typical in such foreignish words, while an "ou" is very rare, whence I'd wager the shift in both pronunciation and spelling. And since "camo(u)fleur" would be a spin-off of "camo(u)flage", the same would apply to it. Larry From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Dec 18 22:44:38 2003 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:44:38 -0800 Subject: the best dictionaries In-Reply-To: <200312160131.hBG1VxED011371@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I use dictionaries quite often for my translation work and for lexicography work I do for Japanese-English dictionaries. As many other people have pointed out, different dictionaries have different uses. Here are some uses by which I select my dictionaries when working: Poorly written but fast: I use a slightly dated, error-riddled dictionary (Eijiro) most often for translation work because its on my hard drive so it's fast, it has a lot of words, and I'm aware of its faults so I don't use its suggestions willy-nilly. (The most recent updates are much better, but I find my version works well enough for most translation.) Accurate and replete, but heavy: After that, I use Kenkyusha's J-E dictionary (fifth edition only). This new edition has lots of words, lots of English suggestions and loads of sample sentences. It's heavy, though, like most hardbound dictionaries, so I usually go to Google before picking it up. Tight definitions vs. plain ones: For lexicography work and my choices after Kenkyusha when translating, I select among three large Japanese dictionaries Daijigen, Daijisen and Nihongo Daijiten. The first two are written in a style that seems to me to be close to Webster's. The definitions tend to be thorough though sometimes hard to understand, and modern words are often missed. Nihongo Daijiten has more modern words, the definitions are easy to read, and there are sample illustrations. I make a conscious decision each time which to use, and it depends on whether I want a really tightly written definition (Daijigen), a well written definition but perhaps a bit more information (Daijisen) or something that will speak to me in plain words (Nihongo Daijiten). Plain English: My favorite English-English dictionary is American Heritage. To me, the definitions are written plainly, so I don't have to work at understanding the word in question. My Scientologist aunt has lauded me more than once on this choice because Scientologists place great value on the correct understanding of word definitions. I think the Random House is similar (their collaborative work with Shogakukan for the Japanese-English dictionary is really nice), but my vague memory of using it that it lacked words I wanted. Too much coverage: I use the OED online on occasion, but haven't had much luck with it. Its thoroughness through the centuries and loads of examples means I have trouble wading through to find the meaning I want. For tough words or obscure definitions, though, it has come in handy in a pinch. Thoroughness, but heavy: I originally used to not like Webster's Third because of its massiveness and the hard-to-understand definitions. Recently, I've found the definitions not as bad as I used to think, but picking it up is such a chore, I've never purchased one. I would like to get one to see how well it works for day-to-day usage... Handy paperbacks: Although the paperback edition of the American Heritage--I think it was college--has come in handy, it's a bit big to carry around. I lament this fact because I have found several Japanese-Japanese paperbacks that are small enough, yet thorough enough (Obunsha's is my favorite). I haven't found a paperback English-English that is small enough to carry around and still has a selection of words good for reading literature. Appropriateness: Although not a dictionary, I regularly use The Synonym Finder, the only thesaurus I've found that quickly finds the word I need. I always thought a dictionary-style format rather than an index in the back would mean a waste of space and poor choices, but with the Roget's I had, I could never figure out which option in the index to use. The Synonym Finder generally hits the word on the first try, or if not, the second. Again, the reason I like this is because it speaks to me in plain terms that I understand with little effort. My first linguistics professor said her word she checked before buying is boustrophedon. Of course the problem--as she pointed out--is once dictionary makers get the wind of such a word, they just put it in :( Benjamin Barrett >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] > >A friend asked me, "How do you know what the BEST dictionaries are?" > >How do professional linguists and lexicographers answer that question? From francesca26 at WP.PL Thu Dec 18 22:41:47 2003 From: francesca26 at WP.PL (Sylwia Frankowska) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:41:47 +0100 Subject: a word game Message-ID: hi, please, can anybody help me with this puzzle? there it is: begin with 'candy' end in 'comet', use only 7 words each time change only one letter, do not change the order of the letters thanks, sylwia From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 19 00:59:06 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:59:06 -0500 Subject: "Unless you've been living in an underground hole, you've heard..." (1959) Message-ID: "UNLESS YOU'VE BEEN LIVING IN AN UNDERGROUND HOLE, YOU'VE HEARD THE NEWS THAT..." This is a cliche meaning that everyone's heard of the following topic of discussion. It's sometimes "unless you've been living on Mars," sometimes "unless you've been living under a rock," sometimes "unless you've been living in a cave," sometimes "unless you've been hiding in an underground hole." Jon Stewart began THE DAILY SHOW on Monday with this cliche. "Unless you've been living in an underground hole, you've heard that former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein was captured," Stewart started his satiric newscast. "And if you HAVE been living in an underground hole..." The "unless you've been living in a cave" is used nowadays with similar double entendre. The phrase has not thus far been recorded, AFAIK. THE SPORTING NEWS was actually helpful with this one, but most of its readers seem to be living in closets. (PAPER OF RECORD) 29 April 1959, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 12, col. 1: "Unless you've spent the last month on a slow boat from Outer Mongolia, The Moose's girdles are no gag." 21 February 1981, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 23, col. 2: Unless you've been living in a closet, you've read the stories or heard about the alleged cheating at Wichita State. 4 April 1988, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 20, col. 1: Unless you've been living in a closet, you know that Oklahoma's Harvey Grant is the twin brother of former Clemson standout and current Chicago Bulls forward Horace Grant,... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) One-Stop Charters: If You Want To Be Part of the Group By Steve Schatt. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jun 13, 1976. p. 181 (1 page): Unless you've been hibernating, it will come as no surprise to learn that fares are higher this year than last. Thinking Things Over; The Commentator By VERMONT ROYSTER. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 7, 1977. p. 24 (1 page): Unless you've been visiting on Mars these past 10 days you must know that Eric Sevareid has retired. Hildegard Defies Time and the Devil; On New Recordings, Hildegard, at 900, Defies Time and the Devil By CORI ELLISON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 5, 1998. p. AR24 (2 pages): Unless you've been dwelling under a rock, the name of this 12th-century German abbess should at least sound vaguely familiar by now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SKY HOOK STAND TALL: THE LEW ALCINDOR STORY by Phil Pepe New York: Grosset & Dunlop First printing September 1970 I didn't have much time to read this (the NYPL first brought me the wrong book). However, I did NOT see "sky hook" on page 188, for example, where it should have been. January 1971--what we have--isn't a bad date for "sky hook." Pg. 188: "Only God can stop his hook shot." (Jon McGlocklin, Bucks' guard--ed.) Pg. 188: ...he would throw in a hook shot with no more emotion than he showed tying his shoelace. And each time he threw in a hook shot, he would bring the Milwaukee Bucks closer to the realization of their impossible dream. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Dec 19 01:25:12 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:25:12 -0500 Subject: a word game Message-ID: >hi, please, can anybody help me with this puzzle? > >there it is: >begin with 'candy' end in 'comet', use only 7 words; each time change only >one letter; do not change the order of the letters >thanks, >sylwia ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you can put 7 words BETWEEN candy & comet, these would do it: candy sandy sands sards sords sores cores comes comet A. Murie From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Dec 19 01:33:37 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:33:37 -0500 Subject: archives Message-ID: And HDAS reported the use of 'doozy' as an adjective in 1903, Slang Fables by Kleberg. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joanne M. Despres" To: Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 10:21 AM Subject: Re: archives > On 18 Dec 2003, at 7:04, paulzjoh wrote: > > > I know that "Duesy" predated the car, but are there archives that I can look > > this up? > > Not that I'm aware of, but both HDAS and OED report the 1916 > Dialect Notes citation that proves the existence of the word before > the invention of the Duesenberg. > > > Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor > Merriam-Webster, Inc. > jdespres at merriam-webster.com > http://www.merriam-webster.com > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 19 02:07:08 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:07:08 -0500 Subject: "A hole big enough to drive a truck through" (1922) Message-ID: HOLES YOU COULD DRIVE A TRUCK THROUGH "We had holes I could have driven a truck through," said Laidlaw after a big game. --9 October 1976, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 41, col. 2. Holes to drive a truck through? I found this idiom/catchphrase while searching SPORTING NEWS. A football offensive line has opened a huge hole for the running back to pass through--so huge you can drive a truck through the hole. The catchphrase has been used for holes in movie/political logic, but why would you "drive a truck" through there? Maybe you can drive an SUV through, instead? "could drive a truck through"--2,480 Google hits, 1,950 Google Groups hits (GOOGLE GROUPS) REVIEW: Black Dog (1998) Directed by: Kevin Hooks Review by: Joy Wyse Reflecting on the movie BLACK DOG I see holes that you could drive a truck through, but that's exactly what they ... rec.arts.movies.reviews - May 7, 1998 by Joy Wyse - View Thread (6 articles) Re: Form-based File Uploadin HTML ... It has security holes you could drive a truck through (with the exception of checking whether it's a legal filename being uploaded.) It also tries to do things ... comp.infosystems.www.authoring.cgi - May 19, 1997 by Maestro - View Thread (2 articles) NEWS: Colorado Senate rejects gun-lock law ... wanted. "The bill is filled with loopholes that most of us could drive a truck through," said Sen. Mark Hillman, R-Burlington. Committee ... rec.guns - Jan 22, 1999 by mr_horrible at my-dejanews.com - View Thread (3 articles) (GOOGLE) http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2003/11/09/a_tax_loophole_big_enough_to_drive_an_suv_through/ (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) TECH HIGH ELEVEN DEFEATS EASTERN; Tech Shows Speed Eastern Recovers Kickoff. Tech Caught Holding. Tackled on Free Catch. Hook's Long Run. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 21, 1922. p. 14 (1 page): Shillinger was in every play on the defense and opened up holds in the line for his speedy backs that were big enough to drive a truck through. SPORTS through Edgren's EYES The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jul 4, 1924. p. S3 (1 page): From the beginning of his career Beckett has pursued one line of strategy. It has been his scheme to let the enemy knock him down two or three times. This would naturally induce overconfidence. The enemy would then rush in hastily, leaving an opening you could drive a truck through. A HOLE BIG ENOUGH TO DRIVE A TRUCK THROUGH Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 14, 1928. p. I1 (1 page): (Football photo caption--ed.) FOUR COACHES PICK HERWIG ON ALL-AMERICAN TEAM; 1936 ALL AMERICAN TEAM Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 29, 1936. p. A9 (2 pages): (Pg. 10, col. 4--ed.) he played in the enemy backfield all the time on the defense, packing the best line Fordham has had in many years and, on the offense, he opened holes big enough to drive a truck through. THE HYLAND FLING DICK HYLAND. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 18, 1949. p. C2 (1 page): I carried the ball--and that is all that was necessary. The boys boomed a hole you could drive a truck through off the Bear left tackle and ye ball packer was sprung into the Bear backfield. SPORTSCRIPTS PAUL ZIMMERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 11, 1950. p. C1 (1 page): "No trick at all out there," said Williams with a big grin. "They're opening up holes big enough to drive a truck through." The Landers poll -- did we say yes, no, or maybe? Melvin Maddocks. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Apr 11, 1977. p. 22 (1 page) : If one's math is not too erratic--an "if" you could drive a truck through--all this combines to work out to an average of just a hair over 51 percent. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNLESS YOU'VE BEEN LIVING..." (continued) (GOOGLE GROUPS) From: Michael Broderick (michael_broderick at bc.sympatico.ca) Subject: Survivor Newsgroups: misc.fitness.misc Date: 2000-08-27 18:35:42 PST This past two months, the media's favourite segues were, "Unless you live on another planet, . . ." or, "Unless you've been living on mars . . ." or "Unless you've been living under a rock these past few weeks, you've missed all the inane prattle of the headline-generating television show Survivor." The show didn't mean much to me. Yes, SURVIVOR promos used the catchphrase. I should have added the Google numbers: "unless you've been living"--6,070 Google hits, 856 Google Groups hits From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Dec 19 02:24:48 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:24:48 EST Subject: History of "Spider Hole" Message-ID: Maybe someone already mentioned this? There is an entry for SPIDER HOLES in A DICTIONARY OF SOLDIER TALK, by Colonel John R. Elting, USA Ret. et al. (Scribner's, 1984). It says: "(Modern) s. Small concealed firing positions from which snipes emerge to shoot at patrolling troops. Probably from the ingenious lair of the trapdoor spider, which darats from its hole to snatch unwayr prey." In a message dated 12/14/03 5:03:50 PM, dave at WILTON.NET writes: > >? ? "Spider hole" is not in OED.?? There are almost a thousand Google > hits, > > and tons of hits today....Spiderman could not be reached for comment. > > It is in the SOED. > > I first heard the term when I was in the Army, mid-80s. I suspect, but don't > have the citations to prove it, that it dates to WWII. The use of > spider-holes was a tactic used by Japanese snipers--but the term could have > been applied retroactively. > > Until now, I only new the term as a type of fighting position, dug to be > used in an ambush. It will be interesting to see if this incident spawns a > new sense meaning a hiding place, as opposed to a place from which to spring > an ambush. > > The metaphor is one of a spider that digs a hole and lies in wait for prey > to come by as opposed to spinning a web. > > --Dave Wilton > ? dave at wilton.net > From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Dec 19 03:06:57 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:06:57 -0600 Subject: Spigotty--parallels in Slavic and Greek Message-ID: Sam Clements spotted the 1908 Saturday Evening Post article which clarifies that "spigotty" (Latino) derives from the Pidgin English of Panamanians who said "(No) spik d' English" (22 Aug. 2003 ads-l message). Barry Popik then added his 15 Dec. 2003 message presenting the entire article. An interesting parallel turns up in Slavic: nemec "German," known to derive from nem- "dumb, mute." Cf. also Greek barbaroi "all who were not Greek or did not speak Greek"--known to derive from a stammering/babbling "bar-bar-bar." Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 19 03:47:19 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:47:19 -0500 Subject: Nose Man (1975); Gotham Center's revised "Big Apple" FAQ Message-ID: NOSE MAN Fred Shapiro tackled my "nose"--with the full text NEW YORK TIMES! That's the last place I would have looked, simply because I assumed that OED had already looked there! 3 November 1975, SPORTS ILLUSTRATED, "Houston gives 'em Bum's rush," pg. 62, col. 3: Culp became the nose man of Phillips' three-man front, which includes Defensive Ends Tody Smith and Elvin Bethea. (I'm more of a leg man myself--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ GOTHAM CENTER'S BIG APPLE FAQ (continued) The Gotham Center has just changed its "Big Apple" FAQ. The whores are no longer mentioned: http://gothamcenter.org/faq.shtml Why is New York called the "Big Apple"? According Gerald Leonard Cohen's Origin of New York City's Nickname ?The Big Apple' (New York: Peter Lang, 1991), while "apple" in American slang means "fellow" and "big apple" means "big shot," the first consistent use of the term to apply to New York City came in the 1920s. John J. Fitz Gerald, a horseracing reporter for the Morning Telegraph, used the term (in columns from 1921-1927) for "New York City racetracks," and that sense of it ? the metropolitan thoroughbred racing circuit ? entered general usage after 1928. Walter Winchell used it in a 1927 column to refer to Broadway ("Broadway is the Big Apple, the Main Stem, the goal of all ambition, the pot of gold at the end of a drab and somewhat colorless rainbow."). In the 1930s black jazz musicians applied the terms "the apple" or, less often, "the big apple" to Harlem or to the entire city, with overtones, again, of the ?big time'. In 1937 a dance called "the big apple" was launched in an African-American nightclub called "Fat Sam's Big Apple," in Columbia, South Carolina, and became a short lived national craze. In 1971, Charles Gillett, then president of the New York Convention & Visitors Bureau, used the term as a name for New York City, in a marketing campaign, after which it won wide acceptance as a synonym for Gotham. "Big Apple" is a synonym for "Gotham." Only the Gotham Center would say this. The Gotham Center teaches New York City history in the schools. This FAQ is important to the GC. It was just awarded two million dollars, as reported in today's newspapers: http://www.gothamcenter.org/news/tahg2003.shtml Teaching American History Grant in the News New York Times - Metro Briefing David M. Herszenhorn December 18, 2003 MANHATTAN: GRANT FOR TEACHING CITY HISTORY The federal Department of Education has awarded $2 million to promote the teaching of New York City history, Schools Chancellor Joel I. Klein and Michael Wallace, the director of City University's Gotham Center for New York City History, said yesterday. The money will be used to incorporate municipal history into existing social studies programs and to train teachers in summer institutes. It will also be used in an advanced fellows program and to hold a conference on history instruction for 750 teachers in 2005. New York Post - FEDS BOO$T HISTORY CLASSES CARL CAMPANILE December 18, 2003 The federal government is giving city public schools a $2 million grant to train teachers so they can better teach kids about New York City and American history. Schools Chancellor Joel Klein, who wants to promote history as part of the city curriculum, announced the award at the City Hall Academy with Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Mike Wallace, co-author of "Gotham: A History of New York City to 1898." New York Sun - New York Desk Staff Reporter Deccember 18, 2003 CITY SCHOOLS GET $2M HISTORY GRANT The federal government handed city schools an early Christmas gift yesterday: $2 million to spruce up history lessons. The Teaching American History Grant--one of two in the country--was awarded to the Education Department, the Gotham Center for New York, and City University of New York. It will be dedicated to training hundreds of teachers in American and New York City history so they can create social studies lessons that fit into the demanding new reading program. "We are going to show how crucial New York City has been to American history," said Schools Chancellor Joel Klein at City Hall Academy, a school where students attend two-week sessions on the Big Apple's history. The Big Apple's history. Of this two million dollar grant I receive--well, I've never made anything. I don't even receive a kind word. After the first dreadful FAQ was made, I walked into the Gotham Center offices. I told them about Gerald Cohen's monograph and the entry in the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF NEW YORK CITY (1995). I copied John J. Fitz Gerald's 1924 and 1926 columns, where he explained that he'd gotten "the Big Apple" from black stablehands in New Orleans. I told the Gotham Center that my work on this occurred after Cohen had published the book. I e-mailed Gerald Cohen that the revised FAQ is straight from the book, and that the stablehands' words were left out. Cohen e-mailed the Gotham Center. The Gotham Center requested this additional information--the same information I had walked into the office and personally handed to the Gotham Center to start this whole FAQ-revision thing off. Tomorrow, the growling etymologist heads back to the Triangle Factory, the 21st-century New York City government workplace without fire alarms, fire exits, or fresh air. A person with the flu is going to sit a few inches away from me and sneeze in my face. If you ever think of doing a good deed in New York City, just kill yourself. From dwhause at JOBE.NET Fri Dec 19 04:49:41 2003 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:49:41 -0600 Subject: Sky Hook (1971) Message-ID: Not basketball, but I think I remember seeing it in 50s or 60 science fiction, probably Robert Heinlein or Arthur C. Clark. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: Which came first, the "rainbow" or the "sky"? The LOS ANGELES TIMES should have coverage of Lew Alcindor's college career at UCLA in the 1960s. Was the "sky hook" invented there? From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Dec 19 05:00:00 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:00:00 -0500 Subject: Sky Hook (1971) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Hause" To: Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 11:49 PM Subject: Re: Sky Hook (1971) > Not basketball, but I think I remember seeing it in 50s or 60 science > fiction, probably Robert Heinlein or Arthur C. Clark. I always though of Heinlein and Clark as more the two-handed set-shot types, but you could be right. Of course, M-W cites it from 1915 in its literal sense. SC From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Fri Dec 19 05:37:46 2003 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight, MLIS) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:37:46 -0800 Subject: Sky Hook (1971) In-Reply-To: <036e01c3c5eb$8ff6abc0$445f12d0@dwhause> Message-ID: Perhaps... <<< snip >>> The Times, Tuesday, Aug 25, 1953; pg. 3; Issue 52709; col D Launching Rockets From Balloons Cheaper Research At High Altitudes FROM OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT. "Dr. Van Allen explained that a small rocket weighing 200lb., carrying 30lb of scientific equipment, could be lifted to 70,000ft. by suspending it from a plastic balloon of the "sky-hook" type, and then automatically released to continue its upward journey under its own power." <<< snip >>> Other examples abound, but have little to do with basketball. At 08:49 PM 12/18/03, you wrote: >Not basketball, but I think I remember seeing it in 50s or 60 science >fiction, probably Robert Heinlein or Arthur C. Clark. >Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net >Ft. Leonard Wood, MO >----- Original Message ----- >From: > Which came first, the "rainbow" or the "sky"? > The LOS ANGELES TIMES should have coverage of Lew Alcindor's college >career at UCLA in the 1960s. Was the "sky hook" invented there? ------------------------------------------------------------- James L. Knight Pourvoyeur et Chef du Cuisine, Chateau des Trois Geckos "This is the sort of English up with which I will not put." _ Winston Churchill _ jlk at 3geckos.net http://www.3geckos.net 360 378 9254 From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Dec 19 11:30:19 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:30:19 -0500 Subject: Sky Hook (1971) In-Reply-To: <004a01c3c5ec$f6aa1040$fc20a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: > > Not basketball, but I think I remember seeing it in 50s or 60 science > > fiction, probably Robert Heinlein or Arthur C. Clark. > > I always though of Heinlein and Clark as more the two-handed > set-shot types, > but you could be right. > > Of course, M-W cites it from 1915 in its literal sense. The OED2 has "1966 Science 11 Feb. 682 (heading) Satellite elongation into a true ?sky-hook?" which I believe is a reference to the satellite idea promulgated in science fiction. (It's hard to tell without more context. The idea is a satellite in geostationary orbit that is connected to the ground by a cable that can be used to lift objects.) The OED's science fiction citations site (http://www.jessesword.com/SF/sf.shtml) says that there are some references to "skyhooks" in 50s science fiction titles, but the works have not been found. From orinkh at CARR.ORG Fri Dec 19 11:47:46 2003 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:47:46 -0500 Subject: "A hole big enough to drive a truck through" (1922) Message-ID: > Holes to drive a truck through? > I found this idiom/catchphrase while searching SPORTING NEWS. A football offensive line has opened a huge hole for the running back to pass through--so huge you can drive a truck through the hole. The catchphrase has been used for holes in movie/political logic, but why would you "drive a truck" through there? Maybe you can drive an SUV through, instead? > The Brit equivalent phrase is "drive a coach and horses through," which on the face of it would seem to date from an earlier time. Perhaps the truck version is just a transatlantic, 20th c. update? Orin Hargraves From mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 19 14:02:12 2003 From: mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:02:12 -0500 Subject: "using his French" Message-ID: My wife, Rene Szafir Mandel, asks the following interesting question: The use of "French [language]" for 'coarse language' shows up twice in a recent NY Times article (December 15, 2003, "Bearing Questions, 4 New Iraqi Leaders Pay Hussein a Visit", By IAN FISHER -- a cute title for the pre-Christmas season). It's not clear from the article whether the person quoted ("Mowaffak al-Rubaie, a Governing Council member") was speaking English or whether his words are translated. But this usage, which I have not seen before, looks like it might be a non-native use erroneously extrapolated from the idiom "Pardon my French", used after using vulgar language. Does anyone know? Here's the quote, the last four paragraphs of the article: >>> Mr. Rubaie said: "One thing which is very important is that this man had with him underground when they arrested him two AK-47's and did not shoot one bullet. I told him, `You keep on saying that you are a brave man and a proud Arab.' I said, `When they arrested you why didn't you shoot one bullet? You are a coward.' " "And he started to use very colorful language," he said. "Basically he used all his French." "I was so angry because this guy has caused so much damage," Mr. Rubaie added. "He has ruined the whole country. He has ruined 25 million people." "And I have to confess that the last word was for me," he continued. "I was the last to leave the room and I said, `May God curse you. Tell me, when are you going to be accountable to God and the day of judgment? What are you going to tell him about Halabja and the mass graves, the Iran-Iraq war, thousands and thousands executed? What are you going to tell God?' He was exercising his French language." Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company <<< -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Dec 19 14:45:47 2003 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:45:47 EST Subject: Sky Hook (1971) Message-ID: In a message dated > Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:49:41 -0600, Dave Hause < > dwhause at JOBE.NET> writeth > > Not basketball, but I think I remember seeing it in 50s or 60 science > fiction, probably Robert Heinlein or Arthur C. Clark. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > The LOS ANGELES TIMES should have coverage of Lew Alcindor's college > career at UCLA in the 1960s. Was the "sky hook" invented there? Thats "Arthur C. Clarke" and yes, I have a vague memory that he once used the phrase. The term "sky hook" has an interesting history. At one time it was classified! DOD had a Project Skyhook starting in the late 1940's which involved flying helium balloons. Unfortunately the project was kept classified for years, with the result that a large number of UFO sightings which were actually Skyhook balloons went unexplained. The earliest written citation I can find is 1948. Volume I number 1 of the fanzine _Skyhook_, edited by Redd Boggs, was the issue for winter, 1948. Reference: URL http://fanac.org/fanzines/SkyHook/ The ultimate origin of "sky hook" is, I am pretty sure, folklore. Possibly a tall tale, "I had no other way to hold it, so I grabbed a sky hook and...". See, for example, URL http://www.prosoundweb.com/lighting/tech_reference/bill/terms/terms3.shtml "Hasn't everybody at some time wished they had a Sky Hook to magically hang something. Especially where there is no fly space!" Another possibliity is that it started out as a practical joke of the snipe-hunt variety, as in the following account (dated September 1967 but the gag could be decades older): Now remember, I am right out of boot camp and don't know much about anything. So while I was walking around the ship, Gunner's Mate Truett Brannen asked me to help him so I said sure. He was working on one of the 3-inch guns which looked very big to me and said he needed a sky hook. I asked where it was and he said it was up front. So I went up front. Never being up front before I found myself on the bridge. This little old man was sitting in a big chair on the port side. I was looking high and low for the sky hook. The man watched me for a while. I saw him looking at me so I said "Hi, how are doing." He asked, "Can I help you?" So I told him I was looking for a sky hook. He the asked who wanted it, so I turned around on the bridge and looked back so I could see the guy who sent me up their. At the time I did not now his name so I pointed to him. There were three guys laughing and pointing to me but they could not see who I was with. As soon as this man came around the corner to see who I was pointing at everyone ran. The man the said "You don't know who I am, do you?" I said no I didn't. He then told me he was "The Old Man," the captain. He said that I should get back to work and tell the guy that sent me looking for the sky hook to come and see him. I never heard what happened but after awhile Brannen and I became friends and I began to learn navy protocol. Yes sir, my naval education had begun. from URL http://www.ussnoxubee.com/skyhook.html A similar hoary naval gag is to give a new sailor a hook and tell him to snag the mail buoy as it goes by. Other professions have similar gags. A one-time boss of mine once, with a straight face, put in a requisition for a "bit bucket". In the printing business a new apprentice is told to go get a "type stretcher" (I imagine this one is falling into oblivion now that Linotype machines are getting to be museum pieces.) - James A. Landau From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 19 15:33:12 2003 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:33:12 -0800 Subject: Sky Hook (1971) In-Reply-To: <1e0.15f61790.2d14691b@aol.com> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2003, at 6:45 AM, James A. Landau wrote: > Another possibliity is that it started out as a practical joke of the > snipe-hunt variety, as in the following account (dated September 1967 > but the gag > could be decades older):... it was a staple of my time in summer camp (1948-53 at the first, in wernersville, pa.) that new boys were sent out to find a snipe and/or fetch a sky hook. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Vocabula at AOL.COM Fri Dec 19 16:20:30 2003 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:20:30 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?In=20the=20December=20issue=20of=20The=20Vocabula?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20Review=A0?= Message-ID: In the December issue of The Vocabula Review? Now online: www.vocabula.com Organ Solo: Masturbation Words -- Mark Morton Math and Meaning -- Brian Kimberling Things They Told Me Not to Do -- Amalia Gnanadesikan Satire: Tool of the Surgeon -- Jim Kittle The Abdominal Snowman -- Richard Lederer Sound Off: Spell, Memory! -- Clifton Raphael The Elder Statesman: Child's Play with Words -- Clark Elder Morrow The Last Word: Too Wretched for Words -- Chris Orlet Love Your English: Blog and Be Merry -- Valerie Collins Grumbling About Grammar Elegant English On Dimwitticisms Clues to Concise Writing Scarcely Used Words Oddments and Miscellanea On the Bookshelf? Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review www.vocabula.com ______________________ The Vocabula Review $8.95 a year www.vocabula.com ______________________ ? Five by Fiske: The five essays included in this volume are as follows: "The Decline of the Dictionary"; "The Perfectibility of Words" and "The Imperfectibility of People," chapters 1 and 2 of The Dictionary of Concise Writing; "Expressions That Dull Our Reason and Dim Our Insight" and "Writing That Demands to Be Read Aloud, Speech That Calls to Be Captured in Print," chapters 1 and 2 of The Dimwit's Dictionary. http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooks.htm#VRfiveby ______________________ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 United States Tel: (781) 861-1515 From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Fri Dec 19 17:45:33 2003 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight, MLIS) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:45:33 -0800 Subject: "A hole big enough to drive a truck through" (1922) In-Reply-To: <3FD3B74D@mail.carr.org> Message-ID: Some "coach and horses" citations... The Times, Saturday, Feb 09, 1833; pg. 1; Issue 15084; col B House Of Commons, Friday, Feb. 8. ... Speaking of that act, Lord Eldon had said that most acts were so drawn up that a person of ordinary ingenuity could drive a coach and horses through them, yet that one set had been so loosely framed that fleets and armies could pass through it. ... The Times, Monday, Oct 17, 1864; pg. 8; Issue 25005; col A France. (FROM OUR OWN CORRESPONDENT.). Foreign Intelligence ... The proceedings of the Bismark Cabinet in the case of these functionaries, as in many cases, are completely opposed to the spirit of the Consitution. If they had their own way they would be perfectly ready to violate the letter as well, or to shelve the whole document as a superfluous and impertinent farrago. But the King is there to save the letter, although he accepts interpretations which enable his Ministers to drive a coach and horse through the spirit. ... The Times, Friday, May 14, 1886; pg. 13; Issue 31759; col A The Canadian Fisheries And The Seizure Of The David J. Adams. (FROM A CORRESPONDENT.). ... Now for the argument by the aid of which the Americans wish to drive a coach and horses through the Convention of 1818. They say that the ordinary rights of trading which they accord to British vessels ought to be reciprocated by the Canadians; ... Hope that helps. -jk At 03:47 AM 12/19/03, you wrote: > > Holes to drive a truck through? > > I found this idiom/catchphrase while searching SPORTING NEWS. A football >offensive line has opened a huge hole for the running back to pass through--so >huge you can drive a truck through the hole. The catchphrase has been used >for holes in movie/political logic, but why would you "drive a truck" through >there? Maybe you can drive an SUV through, instead? > > >The Brit equivalent phrase is "drive a coach and horses through," which on the >face of it would seem to date from an earlier time. Perhaps the truck version >is just a transatlantic, 20th c. update? > >Orin Hargraves From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 19 18:18:26 2003 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:18:26 -0800 Subject: deedly-ball Message-ID: another member of the deely-bob etc. family that we talked about here a while back: "deedly-ball", which i encountered in a comic essay on gay life, "POP QUIZ--How "Martha Are You?", in Joel Perry's _Funny That Way: Adventures in Fabulousness_ (Los Angeles/New York: Alyson Books, 2001). p. 164: Phenomenally successful as she [Martha Stewart] is, there are still among us who think flower-patterned drapes with deedly-ball fringe are chic. the meaning is perfectly clear from the context (especially if you've seen the curtain style in question), but the label is new to me. a google search nets only one citation, and that's perry's original essay as published in Instinct magazine of 11/12/98. there are no hits for "deely-ball" or "dealy-ball". arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), on the fringe From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 19 18:33:40 2003 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:33:40 -0800 Subject: deedly-ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2003, at 10:18 AM, i wrote: > "POP QUIZ--How "Martha Are You?"... make that: "POP QUIZ--How 'Martha' Are You?" arnold, pleading genuine gimpiness From patty at CRUZIO.COM Fri Dec 19 18:42:37 2003 From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:42:37 -0800 Subject: deedly-ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've never heard of this descript either. And I pulled out my oldest sewing book, copyright 1972,and it was called "knotted fringe" and says "Before fringing an edge, make a test tassel to decide best length and thickness. There are two methods for making knotted fringe." Doesn't mention attaching a ball to the tassel. interested in dealy-ball stuff for no particular reason :} Patty At 10:18 AM 12/19/03 -0800, you wrote: >another member of the deely-bob etc. family that we talked about here a >while back: "deedly-ball", which i encountered in a comic essay on gay >life, "POP QUIZ--How "Martha Are You?", in Joel Perry's _Funny That >Way: Adventures in Fabulousness_ (Los Angeles/New York: Alyson Books, >2001). p. 164: > > Phenomenally successful as she [Martha Stewart] is, there are still >among us who think flower-patterned drapes with deedly-ball fringe are >chic. > >the meaning is perfectly clear from the context (especially if you've >seen the curtain style in question), but the label is new to me. > >a google search nets only one citation, and that's perry's original >essay as published in Instinct magazine of 11/12/98. there are no hits >for "deely-ball" or "dealy-ball". > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), on the fringe From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM Fri Dec 19 18:34:40 2003 From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Le May) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 12:34:40 -0600 Subject: deedly-ball In-Reply-To: <20031219181851.GGVE3532.sccmmhc01.mchsi.com@sccmmhc01.mchsi.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Arnold M. Zwicky > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 12:18 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: deedly-ball > ------------- > > another member of the deely-bob etc. family that we talked about here a > while back: "deedly-ball", which i encountered in a comic essay on gay > life, "POP QUIZ--How "Martha Are You?", in Joel Perry's _Funny That > Way: Adventures in Fabulousness_ (Los Angeles/New York: Alyson Books, > 2001). p. 164: Kurt Vonnegut used it in one of his novels. I can't recall which one. Bill Le May From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Dec 19 18:59:44 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:59:44 -0500 Subject: "A hole big enough to drive a truck through" (1922) Message-ID: Many of the citations seem to be to "coach and six" or "coach and four." It is often cited to Macaulay's History of England for driving a coach and six through an Act of Parliament, but appears to be older. From the Gutenberg edition of Sheridan's The Critic, first performed in 1779: >>_Probe_. I wish he was run through the heart, and I should get the more credit by his cure. Now I hope you are satisfied? Come, now let me come at him--now let me come at him.-- [_Viewing his wound._] Oops I what a gash is here! why, sir, a man may drive a coach and six horses into your body.<< John Baker From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Dec 19 19:42:16 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:42:16 -0500 Subject: deedly-ball In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031219102532.00aa1070@mail.cruzio.com> Message-ID: >I've never heard of this descript either. And I pulled out my oldest >sewing book, copyright 1972,and it was called "knotted fringe" and says >"Before fringing an edge, make a test tassel to decide best length and >thickness. There are two methods for making knotted fringe." Doesn't >mention attaching a ball to the tassel. > >interested in dealy-ball stuff for no particular reason :} > >Patty ~~~~~~~ The ball fringe familiar to me from my childhood wasn't merely knotted fringe, but had actual chenille balls, like miniature stocking cap bobbles, attached at frequent -- say, 3/4 in -- intervals, hanging from little stems, like petioles. [It was often used on plain linen crash curtains. Adding it to floral patterns sounds a bit much!] A. Murie From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 19 20:00:23 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:00:23 -0500 Subject: "A hole big enough to drive a truck through" (1922) In-Reply-To: <200312191859.hBJIxpV06469@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Baker, John wrote: > Many of the citations seem to be to "coach and six" or "coach > and four." It is often cited to Macaulay's History of England for > driving a coach and six through an Act of Parliament, but appears to be > older. From the Gutenberg edition of Sheridan's The Critic, first > performed in 1779: The _locus classicus_ is Stephen Rice, quoted in W. King, _State of the Protestants of Ireland_ (1672): "I will drive a coach and six horses through the Act of Settlement." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Fri Dec 19 21:31:51 2003 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:31:51 -0500 Subject: Sky Hook Message-ID: Unless you are looking for a specific reference to Alcindor: I encountered "sky hook" in the Army in the late '60s, as a facetious explanation of how something could be lifted or moved easily by means of a hook lowered from the (clear blue) sky. Somehow we were never allocated a sky hook and ended up using muscle power. I was never sent to the supply sergeant to get a sky hook, but it is in the same category as the gunner's daughter and checkerboard paint, not to mention left-handed smoke shifters and monkey wrenches. Certain models of the CH-54 heavy lift helicopter are called Sky Crane, and lift hooks on some helicopters, including the familiar CH-47 Chinook and the CH-53 are called sky hooks. http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/jets/sky-crane/info/info.htm AHD has "Skyhook: A helicopter whose fuselage is configured so as to be mounted with a steel line and hook used to lift and transport heavy objects." Se?n Fitzpatrick 2+2=5, for extremely large values of 2. From orinkh at CARR.ORG Fri Dec 19 21:43:06 2003 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:43:06 -0500 Subject: "A hole big enough to drive a truck through" (1922) Message-ID: The OED pretty well documents various forms of the idiom and the development of it, though it doesn't have a specific quote for "coach and horses," which I believe is the preferred current form of the expression -- in speech anyway. I think the challenge for those adroit at playing the antedating game is establishing a link between the Brit form and the US form. Are there early US cites for the Brit version (we used horses too, didn't we?)? If so, truck would be a pretty natural follow-on once we entered the motor age. Orin Hargraves From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Fri Dec 19 21:50:54 2003 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:50:54 -0500 Subject: deedly-ball Message-ID: A search of Google Advanced Groups found two cites, using different spellings, but referring to the same object. Deadly ball: http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22deedly+ball%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&selm=3C8FEAC1.65839AD8%40bellsouth.net&rnum=1 Deely ball: http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22deely+ball%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&selm=3c8fee20%241_1%40corp-news.newsgroups.com&rnum=1 I used Google's Advanced Groups Search to locate the above. http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en Nothing was found in a search of the Google print site. http://www.google.com/search?&q=site:print.google.com+ George Cole Shippensburg University From hstahlke at BSU.EDU Sat Dec 20 03:21:31 2003 From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:21:31 -0500 Subject: Fair use and Brohaugh's English through the Ages Message-ID: I just picked up a used copy of William Brohaugh's English through the Ages (Writer's Digest Books 1998), a peculiar sort of dictionary. It's essentially a wordlist, about 57,000 words, arranged by time periods of decreasing length: Old English (to 1150), Middle English, down to centuries for EME, quarter centuries for the 19th c. and decades for the 20th. Within each period words of organized by topic and chonologically within topic. A typical entry offers part of speech, brief definition, and date of first recorded use. It looks like the sort of work that could be produced by programmed searches of the OED on CD, but he makes no mention of the OED. Even in his one-page "Selected Bibliography" the only standard etymological dictionaries listed are Morris, Room, Weekley, Ayto, Hoad's Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology, and The Merriam-Webster New Book of Word Histories. Only Weekley is given a publication date. The Library Journal review on Amazon says of this curious book, "An interesting but not essential purchase for larger libraries.? [sic]" The MLA bib lists no references to the book This raises a question that our local copyrights specialist has asked me about a project I'm working on. How does the OED define fair use? Herb From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Dec 20 03:14:11 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:14:11 -0600 Subject: Sky Hook Message-ID: I also remember it from summer camp. At the age of 14 and 15 (1955-1956) I attended a camp called Shaker Village, somewhere in NY State. (If I remember right, the religious sect known as the Shakers had once lived there). One older fellow (early 20s?) several times humorously referred to "a Shaker sky hook." All I remember about this is that it was something non-existent. Gerald Cohen At 7:33 AM -0800 12/19/03, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > >On Dec 19, 2003, at 6:45 AM, James A. Landau wrote: > >> Another possibliity is that it started out as a practical joke of the >>snipe-hunt variety, as in the following account (dated September 1967 >>but the gag >>could be decades older):... > >it was a staple of my time in summer camp (1948-53 at the first, in >wernersville, pa.) that new boys were sent out to find a snipe and/or >fetch a sky hook. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 20 03:58:43 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:58:43 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Stone Age" In-Reply-To: <3FD3F82B@mail.carr.org> Message-ID: Stone Age (OED 1864) 1844 _Jrnl. Royal Geographical Soc. London_ XIV. 319 Almost all the articles received are such as have been dug up in Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, or Ohio, and consist chiefly of stone implements, which bear a remarkable resemblance to our Scandinavian antiquities of the stone age. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 20 12:03:36 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 07:03:36 EST Subject: Augusta Chronicle and Arnie's Army (1961), Vidalia Onion (1969), Half-Moon Pie Message-ID: AUGUST CHRONICLE (WWW.AUGUSTAARCHIVES.COM) The AUGUSTA CHRONICLE (Georgia) bills itself as "The South's oldest newspaper--established 1785." See "Digitization is a success for the Augusta Archives," LIBRARY NEWS, Fall 2003, pg. 10: http://www.ibiblio.org/slanews/nln/nln03/nln261.pdf. I think that Fred Shapiro left "www.augustaarchives.com" off his list of computer databases. Augusta Archives appears to use the same technology as the Utah newspaper project. It's a little better than Ancestry, which isn't saying much. I was surprised the most by what I didn't find, such as "chess pie." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ARNIE'S ARMY It's a year earlier at the Augusta National. 7 April 1961, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 12-A, cols. 7-8: _Did "Arnie's Army" cost_ _Player a stroke on 13th?_ By VERNON BUTLER Associated Press Sports Writer 12 April 1961, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 6, col. 1 (by Johnny Hendrix, sports editor): All the mass wasn't composed of Arnie's Army, as the Palmer gallery was called. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- VIDALIA ONION This is just slightly after OED's May 1969 citation. DARE? 9 June 1969, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 10, col. 3 (Piggly Wiggly ad): TRY'EM--YOU'LL LOVE 'UM VIDALIA ONIONS 3 LBS. 29c ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MILK SHAKE A little later than the ATLANTA CONSTITUTION. 28 April 1888, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 4, col. 4: AUGUSTA NATIONAL EXPOSITION Bids for Provoleges. (...) Milk Shake. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MOON PIE Although there is a trademarked "moon pie" from Chattanooga, Tennessee, "moon pie" is given on a Google Groups list of "American Regional Food" as a specialty of Atlanta. 26 March 1908, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 8, col. 3: Bill Donohoo with his famous "citterlings" and cracklin' bread and Mrs. Donohoo with her old time half moon pies and "simmon beer" (that the Georgia legislature can't take away from us and give to somebody else.) 23 February 1915, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 6, col. 3: _Cutting the Pie Six Ways._ The rise in prices of food stuffs on account of the European disturbances has not escaped the restaurant pir. In Atlanta the order has been sent down the line to cut pies into six pieces, and to sell each piece for a nickel. Foremrly the pies were cut in quarters and each pieces sold for a nickel. Now the respectable moon pie sells for thirty cents, instead of twenty cents as formerly.--Lavonia Times. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 20 13:13:44 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:13:44 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Civilization" In-Reply-To: <200312201203.hBKC3on26295@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: civilization (OED, 2., 1775) 1764 William Wood _New-England's Prospect_ 94 As every attempt to civilize them [the Indians], since the first settlement of this coutnry, hath proved abortive, if we consider the necessity of this civilization, previous to Christianity, it will rather appear a Utopian amusement, than a probable pursuit. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 20 13:37:40 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:37:40 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Cultural Relativism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: cultural relativism (OED 1958) 1937 _Jrnl. Philosophy_ 34: 28 On Cultural Relativism in Ethics ... S. Kerby Miller. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 20 14:35:34 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 09:35:34 -0500 Subject: What is Earliest Musical Usage of "Jazz"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There has been much discussion here about the earliest use of the word "jazz" meaning "vigor." But it seems to me also of great interest to trace the earliest use of "jazz" in its musical sense. Has there been any investigation of that question? The earliest precisely dated citation in HDAS is from Variety, 27 Oct. 1916. But the book _Lost Chords: White Musicians and Their Contribution to Jazz_ by Richard M. Sudhalter notes the following: "A September 30, 1916, Chicago Defender article refers to a 'jass band' led by black pianist-songwriter H. Benton Overstreet ('There'll Be Some Changes Made'), accompanying vaudeville singer Estella Harris." Does anyone have anything earlier than this? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 20 14:44:15 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 09:44:15 -0500 Subject: More on Musical "Jazz" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Sudhalter book "Lost Chords," which seems to be of questionable scholarliness, also refers to a possible usage of "jazz" in the spring of 1916: On Saturday evening, April 29, a strike force of sixty upstanding Chicago ladies descended on caf after South Side caf, determined to beard the devil in his lair. One such den was Schiller's, by then featuring "Stein's Band From Dixie." "A line of taxi cabs radiated from the Schiller to the east, west, north, and south," one report said. "In front of the doors, a crowd of people fought for admission. A perspiring doorman held them back. `Can't come in,' he shouted. `We're crowded to capacity. Wait 'til some of the others come out.'" The ladies' "findings" duly appeared in the Chicago Herald, under the headline SIXTY WOMEN RIP MASK FROM VICE: It was impossible for anyone to be heard. The shriek of women's drunken laughter rivaled the blatant scream of the imported New Orleans Jass Band, which never seemed to stop playing. Men and woman sat, arms about each other, singing, shouting, making the night hideous, while their unfortunate brethren and sisters fought in vain to join them. [end of excerpt from book] This seems to be claiming that the Chicago Herald used the term "jass band" shortly after Apr. 29, 1916. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Sat Dec 20 17:07:40 2003 From: mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 12:07:40 -0500 Subject: Sky Hook (1971) In-Reply-To: <200312200500.hBK50dk8026739@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Dave Wilton writes: >>> begin quote >>> The OED2 has "1966 Science 11 Feb. 682 (heading) Satellite elongation into a true 'sky-hook'" which I believe is a reference to the satellite idea promulgated in science fiction. (It's hard to tell without more context. The idea is a satellite in geostationary orbit that is connected to the ground by a cable that can be used to lift objects.) The OED's science fiction citations site (http://www.jessesword.com/SF/sf.shtml) says that there are some references to "skyhooks" in 50s science fiction titles, but the works have not been found. <<< end quote <<< [Non-ASCII gibberish replaced with apostrophes / vertical single-quotes] A more recent sf term for such a construct is "beanstalk". The concept is central to Clarke's novel _The Fountains of Paradise_, and he also used it in _3001_, the last (and imho least) of the the 2001 n-ology. But iirc I first saw this name for it in Kim Stanley Robinson's _Red Mars_, first of a trilogy (followed by Blue and Green). Wikipedia has a long entry on it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/space+elevator), crediting Tsiolkovsky with the basic concept in 1895, and Artsutanov in 1957 with the idea of building it top-down (starting from the satellite) rather than from the ground up. Google yields about 100 hits for "beanstalk geostationary", and I don't feel like digging through them for an earliest cite, especially since Jesse's sf-OED project may well already have found one... Hmm, I don't see an entry there for "beanstalk". Over to you, Jesse! -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Dec 20 17:16:23 2003 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 12:16:23 EST Subject: Sky Hook (1971) Message-ID: "James Knight, MLIS" wrote > The Times, Tuesday, Aug 25, 1953; pg. 3; Issue 52709; col D > Launching Rockets From Balloons Cheaper Research At High Altitudes FROM > OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT. > > "Dr. Van Allen explained that a small rocket weighing 200lb., carrying 30lb > of scientific equipment, could be lifted to 70,000ft. by suspending it from > a plastic balloon of the "sky-hook" type, and then automatically released > to continue its upward journey under its own power." My statement that the Skyhook project was classified is from a book I read many years ago (and not available on Amazon.com). Judging from the above quote and from a similar 1951 citation in the OED2, the name "Skyhook" was not classified, although the actual launchings of the balloons may have been. (Or else the OED publishes citations from classified documents! No wonder Jesse Sheidlower uses the alias "Jester"). Se?n Fitzpatrick writes > I was never sent > to the supply sergeant to get a sky hook, but it is in the same category > as the gunner's daughter and checkerboard paint, not to mention > left-handed smoke shifters and monkey wrenches. Checkerboard paint is obvious, but I am not familiar with the reference to "the gunner's daughter." Left-handed [monkey wrenches] do exist---they are identical to right-handed monkey wrenches except that the label is reversed. OED2 under "sky hook" has a 1970 citation for "lleft-handed wrench". I am suspicious of the existence of a "smoke shifter", whether or not it comes in right- and left-handed versions. If we continue much further, we will be in danger of disproving the existence of "left-handed compliments". Sam Clements wrote: >I always though of Heinlein and Clark [sic] as more the two-handed set-shot types, I have met both Heinlein and Clarke. Heinlein seemed to be the physically stolid type (but that may have been because he was 70 at the time). Clarke is at least moderately athletic---his long-time hobby was scuba diving and I once took a photo of him dancing rather energetically at a SFWA party. - Jim Landau Macabre headline of the week (from the always-reliable AOL News) After New al-Qaida Threats Jacksons Gather at Neverland From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Dec 20 19:38:00 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 13:38:00 -0600 Subject: What is Earliest Musical Usage of "Jazz"? Message-ID: Fred Shapiro today sent two messages about the possible earliest musical usage of "jazz" coming about April 29 and Sept. 30, 1916. Below my signoff is Fred's first message and then a reprint of a few earlier messages. Musical "jazz" may go back to 1915, but I'm not sure if there's hard evidence of this. Gerald Cohen At 9:35 AM -0500 12/20/03, Fred Shapiro wrote: >There has been much discussion here about the earliest use of the word >"jazz" meaning "vigor." But it seems to me also of great interest to >trace the earliest use of "jazz" in its musical sense. Has there been any >investigation of that question? The earliest precisely dated citation in >HDAS is from Variety, 27 Oct. 1916. But the book _Lost Chords: White >Musicians and Their Contribution to Jazz_ by Richard M. Sudhalter notes >the following: > >"A September 30, 1916, Chicago Defender article refers to a 'jass band' >led by black pianist-songwriter H. Benton Overstreet ('There'll Be Some >Changes Made'), accompanying vaudeville singer Estella Harris." > >Does anyone have anything earlier than this? > >Fred Shapiro ******* Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:07:24 -0500 From: George Thompson Subject: Re: Fwd (from Norm Cohen):"jazz" Comments: To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Keppard/Kepperd/Kepard/Keperd and several other possible misspellings don't show up in the Historical NYTimes from the 1910s. "Elaine & Her Creole Band" played at an All-Star Theatrical Benefit at the Shubert Theater, W44th, on May 21, 1916, advertized (in small type) on May 19 & 21. I have friends at the Shubert ARchive & will ask them whether they have any information of Elaine, esp. whether her Creole Band played jazz or whether Keppard ever played the Shubert chain, calling his music jazz. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Cohen Date: Wednesday, April 2, 2003 9:27 pm Subject: Fwd (from Norm Cohen):"jazz" > Norm Cohen (no relation) recently sent me a message about "jazz", > and with his permission I present it below my signoff. It pertains > to the early attestations of "jazz" in a musical sense. > > OED gives 1917 as the earliest attestation of "jazz" in a musical > sense; (set aside the 1909 example as an error). Meanwhile, Irving > Lewis Allen, _The City In Slang_, 1993, p.71, citing Gunther > Schuller's 1968 _Early Jazz..._, says: "In 1915 jazz was introduced > to New Yorkers in a vaudeville theater by Freddie Keppard's Creole > Band, but few took notice." > > Gerald Cohen > > > >From: "Norm Cohen" > >To: "Cohen, Gerald" > >Subject: "jazz" > >Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:32:52 -0800 > > > >Gerald: > >I came across the following reference to "jass," which while not > earth>shaking provides more evidence for its use in 1916. > >"According to the _Chicago Defender_, in October 1916 African > American>entertainer Estelle Harris was performing Spencer > Williams's tune > >"Sihim-Me-Sha-Wabble" with her "jass [sic] singers and dancers" > at the South > >Side's Grand Theater, located just across the street from the > Elite No. 1." > >footnote reference: Chicago Defender, Sept. 30, 1916, and Oct. > 14, 1916. > >This from an article by Rebecca A. Bryant, "Shaking Things Up: > Popularizing>the Shimmy in America," in American Music v. 20 no. 2 > (Summer 2002),168-187. > >The above quote is on p 170. The "sic" is hers. > >Norm > From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Sat Dec 20 23:13:55 2003 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 18:13:55 -0500 Subject: Sky Hook (1971) Message-ID: <> Does the digital community have "Go ask the [bo's'n, Scout Master, supply sergeant,] for the " jokes? Do geeks ask new guys to do Teoma searches for good prices on accelerated inverted transistoids? Se?n Fitzpatrick From Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM Sun Dec 21 00:47:45 2003 From: Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM (Jewls2u) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 16:47:45 -0800 Subject: What is Earliest Musical Usage of "Jazz"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I do research for novelists, including myself, and this is what I came up with regarding Jazz/Jass: The legend goes like this: the word "Jass" was some vague slang for sex, and was associated with prostitution. Tom Brown's band had come North from New Orleans in 1915 and was playing a successful engagement at Lamb's Cafe (located at Clark and Randolph Streets) against the wishes of the Chicago musician's union. The term "Jass" was used by the union as a way to denigrate the band. In defiance of the union Brown and the club owner started advertising the band as Brown's Band From Dixieland . The union's insults backfired increasing the popularity of the group and causing the term "Jass" to forever be used to describe the New Orleans style of collective improvisation. http://www.redhotjazz.com/brown.html Roots of "JAZZ" A little bit of Etymology. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- JAS, JASS, JAZ JASCZ, or just plain JAZZ It is said that the expression -'Jazz'- arose during the late nineteenth century in the better brothels of New Orleans, which provided music and dancing as well as sex. The original jazz band, according to Herbert Asbury's 'The Latin Quarter'* (1938), was the 'Spasm (sic) Band', made up of seven boys, aged twelve to fifteen, who first appeared in New Orleans about 1895. They advertised themselves as the "Razzy Dazzy Spasm Band." When, about 1900, another band adopted the same billing for an appearance at the Haymarket dance hall, the 'Spasms' loaded their pockets with rocks and dropped by to protest the infringement. This prompted the owner of the hall to repaint his advertising placards to read: "Razzy Dazzy Jazzy Band!" If the memories of Asbury's sources were correct--and he talked to two surviving members of the 'Spasms' --this represents the word's earliest-known appearance in print. Jazz is not a bad word now, but almost certainly is of extremely low origin, referring to copulation before it was applied to music, dancing, and nonsense (i.e., "all that jazz"). "If the truth were known about the origin of 'Jazz' it would never be mentioned in polite society . . .The vulgar word 'Jazz' was in general currency in dance halls thirty years or more ago" (Clay Smith, "Etude," 9/24). "According to Raven I. McDavid, Sr., of Greenville, S.C., the announcement, in 1919, of the first 'Jazz band' to play in Columbia, where he was then serving in the state legislature, inspired feelings of terror among the local Baptists such as what might have been aroused by a personal appearance of Yahweh. Until that time 'jazz' had never been heard in the Palmetto States except as a verb meaning to copulate" (H. L. Mencken, 'The American Language,' Raven I. McDavid, Jr., 1963). "'She never stepped out of line once in all the years we been teamed up. I can't sell her on jazzing the chump now'" (William Lindsay Gresham, 'Nightmare Alley,' 1946). http://nfo.net/usa/etymol.html *This is actually from Herbert Asbury's book The French Quarter, 1936, pgs 437-8. I didn't look to verify any of the other cites because they are not referring to musical usage of jazz and are dated after 1915.> Julienne From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 21 00:53:13 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 19:53:13 -0500 Subject: "No Sweat" (Sept. 1950) and ProQuest's LA TIMES Message-ID: I'd worked from 8:30 a.m. to 9 p.m. (with a half-hour lunch) yesterday. My apologies for the typing errors in the "Augusta Archives" post. My work schedule gets even worse next week...Larry Horn worked on a McJob for one summer? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ PROQUEST'S LOS ANGELES TIMES The ProQuest LOS ANGELES TIMES has now seemingly improved from May 1953 to April 25, 1956. However, upon closer look (from the following examples--a "slang" search, for example), it appears that the rest of 1953, the entire year of 1954, and the entire year of 1955 haven't been done at all. The year 1956 comes up on searches, but you can't read the articles yet. You just get the article titles. Hurry up, ProQuest. Christmas is coming. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SNOW PEA Perhaps there's a pea here. WHAT SHALL I COOK? MARIAN MANNERS. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 20, 1956. p. B4 (1 page) LESSON FEATURES FOREIGN DISHES Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 15, 1956. p. D12 (1 page) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SANTA MARIA BARBECUE This came up. Still no pinquito beans. Old Mission Santa Ines to Stage Annual Fiesta Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 4, 1956. p. A7 (1 page) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MURPHY'S LAW From a search for "Murphy's law," but it's probably wrong. THE BOOK REPORT ROBERT R KIRSCH. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 23, 1956. p. A5 (1 page) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ GRANOLA This came up on a "granola" search. Granola causes wind? KILLER TORNADOES WHIP WIDE SOUTHWEST AREA; Eight Known Dead, 80 Hurt, Several Missing in 2 States Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 3, 1956. p. 1 (2 pages) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HAPPY HOUR + COCKTAIL I searched for both terms together. Merry Merechant Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 18, 1956. p. O10 (1 page) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SCREWDRIVER I searched for "screwdriver," "vodka," and "orange juice." Display Ad 34 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 6, 1956. p. A3 (1 page) Display Ad 28 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 14, 1956. p. A3 (1 page) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MARGARITA + COCKTAIL Pasadena Setting for Gay Fetes; Ray Kautzes Host Cocktail Event at Their Residence JOAN BURNHAM. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 6, 1956. p. B1 (1 page) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ TV DINNER Display Ad 10 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 5, 1956. p. 11 (1 page) Comic 1 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 1, 1956. p. A5 (1 page) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ NO SWEAT U.S. Air Lift Starts Trips into Kimpo; Giant Transports Pour Supplies Into Field at Front Lines Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 20, 1950. p. 2 (1 page): Three hours and six minutes later, its radio operator, Master Sgt. Edwin C. Perry, Tacoma, Wash., signaled "on ground at 1426 (2:26 p.m.) No sweat (no serious trouble encountered)." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SLANG Some articles in a search for "slang." OPINIONS OF OTHER NEWSPAPERS; DIG THOSE NEW WORDS Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 27, 1956. p. A4 (1 page) TIJUANA CENTER OF HUGE DRUG TRAFFIC; Many Stores There Do Roaring Business in Goof Balls and Reap Fantastic Profits ART WILCOX. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 22, 1956. p. 3 (1 page) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 21 01:54:28 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:54:28 -0500 Subject: Breakfast Ball, Gozer, Mulligan (golf shot) (1992) Message-ID: http://sortagolf.manilasites.com/mulligan History of the Mulligan???Sorta Mulligans are an undeniable part of the rich heritage of golf despite what the USGA might say.? So much so that many golfers have come up with their own alternative "pet" names for a Mulligan (ex. Gozer, Breakfast Ball, etc.). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The HDAS does not have "gozer" or "breakfast ball." A "breakfast ball" is a mulligan on the first tee--although see the 1992 citation below. I thought I'd search for these and give "mulligan" another try, using the Augusta Archives. The Augusta National golf course was built in the early 1930s. No luck, though. "GOLF" and "BREAKFAST BALL"--279 Google hits "GOLF" and "GOZER" and "MULLIGAN"--15 Google hits (really, just the article above) (PROQUEST) Sports Illustrated.? New York:? Jun 15, 1992.? Vol.? 76,? Iss.? 23;? ? pg.? 44,? 5? pgs What with that wild fluttering of butterflies in your stomach, you will absolutely, positively shank your first shot of the day. This is why it is essential to hire Dawg as your caddie. The 45-year-old Dawg (so named for constantly juggling at least three girlfriends) does not allow mulligans off the number 1 tee. However, he does allow "breakfast balls." Dawg is not totally without civility. Unfortunately, tournament players bring their own caddies and therefore do not know the pleasures of breakfast balls. (PROQUEST) Weekend All Things Considered.? Washington, D.C.:? Nov 16, 1996.? ? pg.? 1 SIMON: Now is that because the president is taking a few mulligans, as they're called? LANDEAU: Mulligan being extra shots. He is known to do that. On the first tee it's considered the American thing to do. Sometimes we call it a breakfast ball. But Clinton is alleged to take a few more than that. (JSTOR) Among the New Words Wayne Glowka; Brenda K. Lester American Speech, Vol. 72, No. 3. (Autumn, 1997), pp. 289-313. (Pg. 295 has the same 1996 NPR "breakfast ball" citation about President Clinton--ed.) From douglas at NB.NET Sun Dec 21 02:46:48 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 21:46:48 -0500 Subject: Jazz [adjective] (1919) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jazz" as an adjective meaning "mottled" appears in MW3. ---------- "The Simcoe Reformer" [Simcoe, Ontario], 20 Nov. 1919, p. 9, col. 1: "Brother to Icarus" by Lieut. Warren H. Miller, U.S.N. (attrib. "The Red Book"): col. 2: [on a USN destroyer] <> ---------- I suppose this adjective "jazz" is likely derived from the musical noun ... carrying the sense "unsystematic" or "disorderly" ... appropriate for camouflage. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 21 03:50:39 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 22:50:39 -0500 Subject: Pimiento Cheese (1910); Sick kitten to a hot brick (1849) Message-ID: PIMIENTO CHEESE Earlier this year, I received an order for "pimiento cheese." It was said that "pimiento cheese sandwiches" were very popular at the Augusta National. 29 July 1910, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 8, col. 3 (Ad for J. L. Janes & Co. on Broad Street--ed): PIMIENTO CHEESE, you know how fine it is. This is good. 2 for...25c 24 November 1931, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. col. 1 (Ad for Butch Easterling's Place on Sand Bar Ferry Road--ed.): Toasted Pimento Cheese Sandwiches, Large Size...10c 13 December 1962, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, third section, pg. 1C, col. 1 photo caption: PIMIENTO CHEESE SANDWICHES WITH CRABMEAT CHUNKS FOR THE HOLIDAYS 4 September 1969, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE-HERALD, pg. 2 (third section?), col. 1: _Classic recipe_ _gets new treat_ By CECILY BROWNSTONE _Porch Snack_ A classic vanilla fudge recipe is treated to almonds. Pimiento Cheese Sandwiches Fudge Thinsies Iced Tea ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SICK KITTEN TO A HOT BRICK LIGHT ON DARK PLACES AT PANAMA by An Isthmian Stenographer (Mary A. Chatfield--ed.) New York: Broadway Publishing Co. 1908 Pg. 40: Another Texan I met boarded where I did in New Haven, which was favored by his presence, as he attended the Yale Law School. He had wild, chrysanthemum hair and prominent ears. I have not the remotest idea what his name was, for every one called him Texas. He sat gazing at me one day at dinner, finally breaking out with, "Miss Chatfield, did you ever love a man right hard?" "Did you ever feel like a sick kitten hugging up tew a hot brick?" he inquired, amid shouts of laughter from the other folks at the table. This was only one of his many wonderful remarks. A sick kitten hugging up to a hot brick? WHAT DO THEY TEACH AT YALE LAW SCHOOL? Was this how Hillary met Bill? An OED "sick kitten" search wasn't the cat's meow. (GOOGLE) John Palmer, San Francisco Medicine, 1849 ... round the lashes," -- it is usual to describe his condition by a feline figure; he is said to "cuddle up to her like a sick kitten to a hot brick." But the ... search.ancestry.com/db-calbk144/P113.aspx - Similar pages Definitions ... conservative as: "a businessman's candidate, hovering around the status quo like a sick kitten around a hot brick.". Modern conservatives ... www.theinternetparty.org/etc/ index.php?section_type=etc&cat_name=Definitions - 37k - Cached - Similar pages type_Document_Title_here ... I do not know what he want(ed) to ask her that for she has told him time and again that she loves him better than a "sick kitten loves a hot brick." I have ... www.hal-pc.org/~jdm/letters/18820326ltr.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages The Mediadrome - History - Quotes of the Day: Conservatism ... M. "...a businessman's candidate, hovering around the status quo like a sick kitten around a hot brick.". William Allen White 1916. M. ... www.themediadrome.com/content/articles/ words_articles/Quotes/conservatism.htm - 21k - Cached - Similar pages all things William ... Bill Weaver. . . . a businessman's candidate, hovering around the status quo like a sick kitten around a hot brick. ~ William Allen ... www.allthingswilliam.com/politics.html - 33k - Cached - Similar pages (WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION) Byrn, M. Lafayette (1826-1903): The Life and Adventures of an Arkansaw Doctor (1851) 1 match in 1 of 178 pages CHAPTER VI. until a report was out that she had a new suitor, and people said that she leaned up to him like a sick kitten to a hot rock, as though she had never cared anything for me. / It looked hard to a Fifteen minutes around New York Foster, George G., New York : DeWitt & Davenport, 1854. Pg. 106: Go to any theatre in New York, and you will find every other women in the house, minus the old and ugly, with the arm of the next gentleman round her neck, and frequently the fingers tucked under her off shoulder, while the inconscious creature, looking as if butter wouldn't melt in her mouth, leans up against the many breast, "like a sick kitten to a hot brick." (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE) ROUND-THE-WORLD JOE.; IV. KEEPING IT UP. George Eager. Our Young Folks. An Illustrated Magazine for Boys and Girls (1865-1873). Boston: May 1867. Vol. 3, Iss. 5; p. 257 (9 pages) (Somewhere here--ed.) True to 'Mandy Collins; Jim's Loyalty. Puck Current Literature (1888-1912). New York: May 1894. Vol. Volume XV, Iss. Number 5; p. 437 (1 page): "I did, Colonel--a fine gal down the crick. I sot right up to her, like a sick kitten to a hot brick, for a whole week, when one day 'long came 'Mandy, and I axed her ag'in." From mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Sun Dec 21 04:58:18 2003 From: mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 23:58:18 -0500 Subject: shim (software) Message-ID: Heard in conversation tonight: "... a shim between the DVD driver and the software for reading the disk." When asked, the speaker defined this use of "shim" as "a piece of software that sits between two pieces of software that normally communicate directly with each other." It usually operates transparently, so that neither of the two other pieces of software* "knows" that it's there, but "thinks" it's communicating with the other one normally. I hadn't heard this usage before. A Google search finds around 28k hits of "shim" and "software" in the same text, of which the first relevant one, is #10, http://archnet.caup.washington.edu/00Archnet%20Home/3.Software/0.default.html (University of Washington, Department of Architecture: ARCHNET Student Download Software): What is the "Keyserver Client"? The management mechanism that keeps track of the number of licenses of each title that are in use is a "software metering" system. Most of our software is metered by a system called "KeyServer". This "shim" software sits between the application and the network, checking licenses in and out as you work. "Keyserver Client" is the name of the application (under Windows, on a Mac it is an extension) that provides the necessary services. Therefore, you must install the Keyserver Client first, prior to installing or running any of the other applications. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Sun Dec 21 05:27:45 2003 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight, MLIS) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 21:27:45 -0800 Subject: shim (software) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From "The Jargon File" [http://www.jargon.8hz.com/html/index.html] ...The 4.0.0 version was published in September 1996 as the third edition of The New Hacker's Dictionary from MIT Press (ISBN 0-262-68092-0). shim: n. 1. A small piece of data inserted in order to achieve a desired memory alignment or other addressing property. For example, the PDP-11 Unix linker, in split I&D (instructions and data) mode, inserts a two-byte shim at location 0 in data space so that no data object will have an address of 0 (and be confused with the C null pointer). See also loose bytes. 2. A type of small transparent image inserted into HTML documents by certain WYSIWYG HTML editors, used to set the spacing of elements meant to have a fixed positioning within a TABLE or DIVision. Hackers who work on the HTML code of such pages afterwards invariably curse these for their crocky dependence on the particular spacing of original image file, the editor that generated them, and the version of the browser used to view them. Worse, they are a poorly designed kludge which the advent of Cascading Style Sheets makes wholly unnecessary; Any fool can plainly see that use of borders, layers and positioned elements is the Right Thing (or would be if adequate support for CSS were more common). ... "The first PDP-11s (the 11/15 and 11/20) shipped in 1970 from DEC;..." For what it's worth: magic cookie: n. [Unix; common] ... 2. An in-band code for changing graphic rendition (e.g., inverse video or underlining) or performing other control functions (see also cookie). Some older terminals would leave a blank on the screen corresponding to mode-change magic cookies; this was also called a glitch (or occasionally a turd; compare mouse droppings). See also cookie. "older terminals" being those dumb tubes connected to mini- and main-frame computers, vintage late sixties, early seventies -- predating the common PC web browser by at least twenty years. Cheers, -jk At 08:58 PM 12/20/03, you wrote: >Heard in conversation tonight: > >"... a shim between the DVD driver and the software for reading the >disk." > >When asked, the speaker defined this use of "shim" as "a piece of >software that sits between two pieces of software that normally >communicate directly with each other." It usually operates >transparently, so that neither of the two other pieces of software* >"knows" that it's there, but "thinks" it's communicating with the other >one normally. > >I hadn't heard this usage before. A Google search finds around 28k hits >of >"shim" and "software" in the same text, of which the first relevant one, >is #10, >http://archnet.caup.washington.edu/00Archnet%20Home/3.Software/0.default.html >(University of Washington, Department of Architecture: ARCHNET Student >Download Software): > > >What is the "Keyserver Client"? > >The management mechanism that keeps track of the number of licenses of >each title that are in use is a "software metering" system. Most of our >software is metered by a system called "KeyServer". This "shim" software >sits between the application and the network, checking licenses in and >out as you work. "Keyserver Client" is the name of the application >(under Windows, on a Mac it is an extension) that provides the necessary >services. Therefore, you must install the Keyserver Client first, prior >to installing or running any of the other applications. > >-- Mark A. Mandel > Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 21 06:23:30 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 01:23:30 EST Subject: "Throws like a girl" (1942) Message-ID: More sports expressions against the full text SPORTING NEWS. Paper of Record (www.paperofrecord.com) has just added the years 1990-2002, so now the entire run of SPORTING NEWS from 1886-2002 is searchable. You can buy a day pass for many of these newspaper databases for just $4.95. I had posted 1952 for "throw like a girl" (see ADS-L archives). 22 October 1942, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 3, col. 3: "I look like a splinter compared to the rest of my family, " said Tommy (Hughes--ed.). "Even my 17-year-old brother, Jack, weighs 190 (Col. 4--ed.) pounds. But he'll never be a ball player. He throws like a girl." (PROQUEST) Putting the Fast Ones Over; Putting the Fast Ones Over By REX LARDNER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 8, 1966. p. CBBR4 (2 pages) (First Page--ed.) When Harmon Killebrew first came to the Washington Senators, we are told by Hal Butler, manager Bucky Harris watched him play shortstop. "'Good grief,' he exclaimed. 'The kid throws like a girl!'" Lombardi Happy To End Road Tour; Cards Early One-Point Favorites 'Team Play' Gladdens Lombardi By Dave BradyWashington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Oct 7, 1969. p. D1 (2 pages): (Pg. D3--ed.) Told that spectators in the San Francisco press box said Jurgensen "throws like a girl" when he wobbled a couple of completions and appeared to lack snap in his throws as he passed off-balance, Lombardi said, "I wish I had a lot of 'girls' like him. His arm is fine." From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 21 15:40:57 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:40:57 -0500 Subject: Fwd: AWADmail Issue 105 Message-ID: If anyone who's done the spade-work on _spider hole_ wants to set the readership of A Word A Day right (the link below is an Aussie reiteration of the patently false claim that it began in the Vietnam War), you can mail Mr. Garg below. He's usually pretty generous about circulating updates and corrections of his previous columns. larry --- begin forwarded text From: Anu Garg (anu at wordsmith.org) Subject: Interesting stories from the net What's a spider hole?: http://smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/15/1071336894572.html --- end forwarded text From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Dec 21 16:55:36 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:55:36 -0600 Subject: Hashhouse lingo queries: "milk crust," "on the cantaloupe," "Make it three all 'round." Message-ID: >At 10:02 PM -0500 11/29/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >WORTH HUMORING. >Puck (1877-1918). New York: Aug 5, 1908. Vol. 64, Iss. 1640; p. 0_5 (1 page): >(Dinner table illustration--ed.) > _WORTH HUMORING._ > MR. SUBBERTON (_yelling to kitchen_).--Sawdust and milk crust! >Adam and Eve on a raft and wreck 'em! On the cantaloupe! Draw one! >Make it three all 'round! > MR. TOWNLEY.--Great,--e-e-r, how--pardon me, old chap, but what's >it all about? MR. SUBBERTON.--'Sh! We've got a former restaurant cook--_a peach!_--and we have to order that way to keep her on the job! **** The above _Puck_ item doesn't clarify the meanings of the hash-house lingo it presents. "Adam and Even on a raft and wreck 'em" is poached eggs on toast with the yolks broken. "Sawdust" is cornmeal. "Draw one" is a cup of coffee. But what is "milk crust," "Make it three all 'round," and "On the cantaloupe"? Gerald Cohen From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Sun Dec 21 17:21:16 2003 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:21:16 -0800 Subject: The New Scientist's competition for brave new scientific words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FOR THIS year's Feedback competition, readers were invited to invent a new scientific word that we need and define it in an appropriately pompous way. Monotonologue and Terarist are particularly inspired http://www.newscientist.com/opinion/opfeedback.jsp?id=ns242699#21 Vida. vidamorkunas at telus.net From douglas at NB.NET Sun Dec 21 19:22:22 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:22:22 -0500 Subject: Hashhouse lingo queries: "milk crust," "on the cantaloupe," "Make it three all 'round." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>WORTH HUMORING. >>Puck (1877-1918). New York: Aug 5, 1908. Vol. 64, Iss. 1640; p. 0_5 (1 page): >>(Dinner table illustration--ed.) >> _WORTH HUMORING._ >> MR. SUBBERTON (_yelling to kitchen_).--Sawdust and milk crust! >>Adam and Eve on a raft and wreck 'em! On the cantaloupe! Draw one! >>Make it three all 'round! >> MR. TOWNLEY.--Great,--e-e-r, how--pardon me, old chap, but what's >>it all about? > MR. SUBBERTON.--'Sh! We've got a former restaurant cook--_a >peach!_--and we have to order that way to keep her on the job! > >**** > > The above _Puck_ item doesn't clarify the meanings of the >hash-house lingo it presents. >"Adam and Even on a raft and wreck 'em" is poached eggs on toast with >the yolks broken. "Sawdust" is cornmeal. "Draw one" is a cup of >coffee. > > But what is "milk crust," "Make it three all 'round," and "On the >cantaloupe"? "Sawdust" was used in the early 20th century to refer to cold breakfast cereal (inter alia). I don't recognize this "milk crust" but I believe "milk crust" was once used routinely to refer to "crusty" (in the post-vesicular phase I suppose) facial eczema in an infant. So my speculations would be (1) "milk crust" = "milk" (on the cereal) + nonsense "crust" to make a double-entendre and a rhyme, (2) "milk crust" = something crusty, maybe milk plus brown sugar (on the cereal). "[Make it] three all 'round" I think means "three for each person" and it might refer to pancakes or something like that. "On the cantaloupe" ... maybe it's just cantaloupe? -- Doug Wilson From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 21 22:37:51 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:37:51 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Sawed Off Shotgun" (1890) Message-ID: OED cites from 1898. M-W gets a pass, as the "sawed off" existed earlier. Using Ancestry.com, I found two different, but equally interesting articles on the subject. The 'Western US' stagecoach weapon is cited in the Stevens Point(WI) Journal from September 9, 1891. Page ?, column 3: Note--the article, which is rather long, would imply that the use of a barrel-shortened gun by the "messenger" on a stagecoach pre-dated this article by more than a bit. <> and <> The above article was reprinted from the San Francisco Examiner. An earlier cite, 1890, was from the Waukesha(WI) Freeman, October 20, 1890. Page 1?, column 4-5. Another long article about the assassination of the superintendent of police in New Orleans by the Mafia. <> Boy, does that sound like something out of a modern movie! Sam Clements From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 21 23:36:03 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:36:03 EST Subject: Brunswick Stew (1859) Message-ID: _Brunswick Stew_ You can't get much more American than this--a big old stew pot with assorted meats, corn, tomatoes, beans, and hot sauce. But you also can't get too specific, because Brunswick stew means different things to different people. Two places called Brunswick in the United States claim the dish as their own: Brunswick County, Virginia, and Brunswick, Georgia (historians usually side with the Virginians, who apparently started making a stew like this in the early 1800s). ---David Rosengarten, IT'S ALL AMERICAN FOOD (2003), pg. 311. It's Virginia. (Squirrel is for lovers?) DARE has "chiefly Sth, esp VA, NC, GA." The first citation is 1856 and the next is 1899. DARE claims "From Brunswick Co., VA." If "Brunswick stew" originated in Georgia, we should see something about that in the AUGUSTA CHRONICLE. There are many hits for an ad in February-March 1899; the first hit before that is 1859. 16 November 1859, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 2, col. 2: Lives there the man not a Virginian who comprehends the joys of Brunswick stews, the bliss of roas'n ears, and the rapture of pot liquor? Did any boy but a Virginia boy ever catch catfish out of a branch with a pin-hook after a heavy shower? (...) Did you ever eat any snaps cooked by an old Virginia nigger cook? 4 February 1899, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 4, col. 5: GENUINE GEORGIA _BRUNSWICK STEW_ Made of selected Chicken, Beef, Corn and Tomatoes. A complete meal in itself. A perfect Lunch for Clubs. (...) COLD SPRING PACKING Co., Atlanta, Ga. (WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION) Bagby, George William (1828-1883): What I Did With My Fifty Millions (1874) 1 match in 1 of 131 pages Pg. 123: immortality?all present longings, I mean. We had some pot-liquor with dumplings, a cotopaxic Brunswick stew, vegetables of various degrees, 'coon cutlets, some bread?also forks?some (MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN) Title: Good Eatings Publication Info.: Southern literary messenger; devoted to every department of literature and the fine arts. / Volume 37, Issue 5, May 1863, pp.304-311 Collection: Making of America Journal Articles Search results: 3 matches in full text Pg. 308: Beling tired of fried chicken, and other every day Virginian dishes, the decree went forth for a Brunswick stew. That very evening, the squirrels were fetched from the tops of the tall oaks in the forest hard by, the garden furnished the vegetables, and the next day it was served copiously, superbly, royally, under a grand old walnut tree whose mighty Briaerean arms shaded half the yard. There was no other dish but the Brunswick stew, and that was enough; for it contained all the meats and juices of the forest and garden magnificently conglomerated and sublimed by the potent essence of fiery Cayenne, pod upon pod, lavishly thrown in. (...) I used to think that this was one of the Arabian Nights Entertainments, but since that Brunswick stew under the walnut tree at Gannaway's, I am prepared to believe anything in the melon line;... Author: Harland, Marion, 1830-1922. Title: Common sense in the household; a manual of practical housewifery. Publication date: 1872. Collection: Making of America Books Search results: 3 matches in full text Pg. 172: SQUIRRELS. The large gray squirrel is seldom eaten at the North, but in great respect in Virginia and other Southern States. It is generally barbecued, precisely as are rabbits; broiled, fricasseed, or--most popular of all--made into a Brunswick stew. This is named from Brunswick County, Virginia, and is a famous dish--or was--at the political and social pic-nics known as barbecues. I am happy to be able to give a receipt for this stew that is genuine and explicit, and for which I am indebted to a Virginia housekeeper. Pg. 173 Pg. 544 A search of George Washington's writings didn't turn up "Brunswick stew." But it's very clear that "Brunswick stew" comes from Virginia. A 2003 book on American food should not suggest a Georgia origin. "Virginia style" and "Georgia style" Brunswick stew is another matter entirely. The Google numbers: BRUNSWICK STEW--11,800 Google hits BRUNSWICK STEW + VIRGINIA--2,030 Google hits; 347 Google Groups hits BRUNSWICK STEW + GEORGIA--1,930 Google hits; 425 Google Groups hits (GOOGLE GROUPS) From: John Nall (nall at sun8.scri.fsu.edu) Subject: Recipe for Georgia Brunswick Stew This is the only article in this thread Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking Date: 1992-07-07 01:13:44 PST I had posted a query to the net as to whether or not anyonemight have a recipe for Brunswick Stew that they would careto share with me.I received the following reply from KTRUETT at Ruby.VCU.EDU, who also advised that "you are never alone when a Bene Gesseritis nearby". Shades of Dune!! Anyway, she asked if I would post it, since she is unable to post to the net although shecan read with no problem. So here it is, with full credit to her. BTW, she also advised that Georgia Style Brunswick Stewis distinct from Virginia Style Brunswick Stew , which apparentlyhas larger chunks of meat and probably other differences. So if any Cavaliers are around with a recipe for VBS sure wouldlove to see how the two styles compare :-) John From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Dec 22 00:14:48 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:14:48 -0500 Subject: Fed up Message-ID: I have always said "fed up with" sthg or other. One of my daughters, who spent one year of her early adolescence in an English boarding school, says "fed up of," which I always think is simply a mistake. Today, however, I ran across "fed up of" in an English novel and am wondering if this is ordinary English usage. Is it normal in any North American region? A. Murie From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Dec 22 00:19:35 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:19:35 -0600 Subject: Fed up Message-ID: This looks like a blend: "fed up with" and "sick of" Gerald Cohen -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of sagehen Sent: Sun 12/21/2003 6:14 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Fed up I have always said "fed up with" sthg or other. One of my daughters, who spent one year of her early adolescence in an English boarding school, says "fed up of," which I always think is simply a mistake. Today, however, I ran across "fed up of" in an English novel and am wondering if this is ordinary English usage. Is it normal in any North American region? A. Murie From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Dec 22 00:22:57 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:22:57 -0500 Subject: Brunswick Stew (1859) Message-ID: Rosengarten, whatever his heritage, doesn't know squat. I come from Virginia and I make a Brunswick stew using the recipe in the Williamsburg cookbook. It's the original thing. Rosengarten mentions "hot sauce." WHAT hot sauce? Where does that come from? Barry's excellent find, from the 1859 Augusta paper mentions "snaps." If you don't hail from southern Virginia, then you wouldn't know that they are "green beans" which one had to 'string'and 'snap' before cooking. I did that many a day in the 1950's. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 6:36 PM Subject: Brunswick Stew (1859) _Brunswick Stew_ You can't get much more American than this--a big old stew pot with assorted meats, corn, tomatoes, beans, and hot sauce. But you also can't get too specific, because Brunswick stew means different things to different people. Two places called Brunswick in the United States claim the dish as their own: Brunswick County, Virginia, and Brunswick, Georgia (historians usually side with the Virginians, who apparently started making a stew like this in the early 1800s). ---David Rosengarten, IT'S ALL AMERICAN FOOD (2003), pg. 311. It's Virginia. (Squirrel is for lovers?) DARE has "chiefly Sth, esp VA, NC, GA." The first citation is 1856 and the next is 1899. DARE claims "From Brunswick Co., VA." If "Brunswick stew" originated in Georgia, we should see something about that in the AUGUSTA CHRONICLE. There are many hits for an ad in February-March 1899; the first hit before that is 1859. 16 November 1859, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 2, col. 2: Lives there the man not a Virginian who comprehends the joys of Brunswick stews, the bliss of roas'n ears, and the rapture of pot liquor? Did any boy but a Virginia boy ever catch catfish out of a branch with a pin-hook after a heavy shower? (...) Did you ever eat any snaps cooked by an old Virginia nigger cook? 4 February 1899, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 4, col. 5: GENUINE GEORGIA _BRUNSWICK STEW_ Made of selected Chicken, Beef, Corn and Tomatoes. A complete meal in itself. A perfect Lunch for Clubs. (...) COLD SPRING PACKING Co., Atlanta, Ga. (WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION) Bagby, George William (1828-1883): What I Did With My Fifty Millions (1874) 1 match in 1 of 131 pages Pg. 123: immortality?all present longings, I mean. We had some pot-liquor with dumplings, a cotopaxic Brunswick stew, vegetables of various degrees, 'coon cutlets, some bread?also forks?some (MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN) Title: Good Eatings Publication Info.: Southern literary messenger; devoted to every department of literature and the fine arts. / Volume 37, Issue 5, May 1863, pp.304-311 Collection: Making of America Journal Articles Search results: 3 matches in full text Pg. 308: Beling tired of fried chicken, and other every day Virginian dishes, the decree went forth for a Brunswick stew. That very evening, the squirrels were fetched from the tops of the tall oaks in the forest hard by, the garden furnished the vegetables, and the next day it was served copiously, superbly, royally, under a grand old walnut tree whose mighty Briaerean arms shaded half the yard. There was no other dish but the Brunswick stew, and that was enough; for it contained all the meats and juices of the forest and garden magnificently conglomerated and sublimed by the potent essence of fiery Cayenne, pod upon pod, lavishly thrown in. (...) I used to think that this was one of the Arabian Nights Entertainments, but since that Brunswick stew under the walnut tree at Gannaway's, I am prepared to believe anything in the melon line;... Author: Harland, Marion, 1830-1922. Title: Common sense in the household; a manual of practical housewifery. Publication date: 1872. Collection: Making of America Books Search results: 3 matches in full text Pg. 172: SQUIRRELS. The large gray squirrel is seldom eaten at the North, but in great respect in Virginia and other Southern States. It is generally barbecued, precisely as are rabbits; broiled, fricasseed, or--most popular of all--made into a Brunswick stew. This is named from Brunswick County, Virginia, and is a famous dish--or was--at the political and social pic-nics known as barbecues. I am happy to be able to give a receipt for this stew that is genuine and explicit, and for which I am indebted to a Virginia housekeeper. Pg. 173 Pg. 544 A search of George Washington's writings didn't turn up "Brunswick stew." But it's very clear that "Brunswick stew" comes from Virginia. A 2003 book on American food should not suggest a Georgia origin. "Virginia style" and "Georgia style" Brunswick stew is another matter entirely. The Google numbers: BRUNSWICK STEW--11,800 Google hits BRUNSWICK STEW + VIRGINIA--2,030 Google hits; 347 Google Groups hits BRUNSWICK STEW + GEORGIA--1,930 Google hits; 425 Google Groups hits (GOOGLE GROUPS) From: John Nall (nall at sun8.scri.fsu.edu) Subject: Recipe for Georgia Brunswick Stew This is the only article in this thread Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking Date: 1992-07-07 01:13:44 PST I had posted a query to the net as to whether or not anyonemight have a recipe for Brunswick Stew that they would careto share with me.I received the following reply from KTRUETT at Ruby.VCU.EDU, who also advised that "you are never alone when a Bene Gesseritis nearby". Shades of Dune!! Anyway, she asked if I would post it, since she is unable to post to the net although shecan read with no problem. So here it is, with full credit to her. BTW, she also advised that Georgia Style Brunswick Stewis distinct from Virginia Style Brunswick Stew , which apparentlyhas larger chunks of meat and probably other differences. So if any Cavaliers are around with a recipe for VBS sure wouldlove to see how the two styles compare :-) John From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Dec 22 00:34:51 2003 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:34:51 -0500 Subject: WOTY Nomination for Most Unnecessary Message-ID: My nomination for the most unnecessary word of the year: "killographic." http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2003-12-09-killing-word_x.htm A public interest group had a holiday warning and a new word Monday for parents of video game users: Beware of "killographic," defined as the "graphic depiction of brutal violence." The National Institute on Media and the Family, an independent, nonprofit group, said "killographic" scenes are featured in a number of video games within reach of children. [...] "If pornographic is the 'graphic depiction of sex,' then killographic should enter our vocabulary to describe the 'graphic depiction of brutal violence,"' David Walsh, the institute's president, told a Capitol Hill news conference. -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Dec 22 02:11:09 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:11:09 -0500 Subject: Antedating of 'parking brake' (automotive) (1920) Message-ID: M-W has 1930. OED has 1944. Using Ancestry.com, from the Washington Post, March 30, 1924. Page 8, col. 3; <> An article about the "Flint Forty" auto. "Emergency brake" has an application in train terminology and so goes back to the 19th Century. I found an antedate of 1891 for that train use to supplement the m-w 1900 cite. SC From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Mon Dec 22 05:43:37 2003 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight, MLIS) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:43:37 -0800 Subject: Fed up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Times, Tuesday, Jan 15, 1957; pg. 8; Issue 53739; col D 'Bored' With Sunday School Inquiry Into Loss Of Scholars ... the report says that the answers given by 1,000 children to the question: "Why did you leave Sunday school?" were, in most cases, that they had lost interest. Many stated tersely that Sunday school bored them. "I got fed up of the same things over and over again." "I got tired of it after all those years" (age 12). "Bored." "I did not learn anything." ... The Times, Saturday, Jul 09, 1960; pg. 4; Issue 54819; col D Court Hears Voice Of Dying Man Tape Recording Played At Inquest FROM OUR CORRESPONDENT. ... The message left by the dead man on the tape recorder to his friend said: "Dear Stephan, I am talking to you. Thank youvery much for what you have done for me. I am fed up of all this, other people helping me along. ... The Times, Wednesday, Jul 25, 1962; pg. 14; Issue 55452; col B House Of Commons Limited advertising on television MR. CHAPMAN (Birmingham, Northfield, Lab.) ... To limit advertising in the way suggested might lead to a proliferation of rather short programmes. The public has got rather fed up of seeing stupendous profits made out of this intrusion into viewing time. ... And so on. An earlier, (The Times, Feb 12, 1931), op-ed piece on the literal vs. metaphorical use of "fed up" includes: "According to the report, an escaped convict recaptured on Tuesday, said to the police: "I am hungry and fed up"; and probably neither he nor the policemen were just then aware that they had witnessed a small but definite event in the history of the English language. Hungry and fed up -- it is impossible to be both at once,..." Further along, "...because 'fed up' has long been losing any literal meaning it may once have had. Many a soldier wrote home from the front to say that he was fed up with the War, but that the food was very good." -jk At 04:14 PM 12/21/03, you wrote: >I have always said "fed up with" sthg or other. One of my daughters, who >spent one year of her early adolescence in an English boarding school, says >"fed up of," which I always think is simply a mistake. Today, however, I >ran across "fed up of" in an English novel and am wondering if this is >ordinary English usage. Is it normal in any North American region? >A. Murie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 22 09:12:30 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 04:12:30 EST Subject: Red Rice; Georgia Chicken; Five Fingered Salute; Monkeys & Shakespeare Message-ID: Some chicken and rice, with other fixings. The AUGUSTA CHRONICLE didn't have an early "fixings." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- RED RICE "Red rice" is not in the latest DARE. It certainly is an American regional dish. OED has a 1929 "Spanish rice" citation from D. H. Lawrence, and that's it for that. OED has only one 1883 "red rice" citation, about Singapore. "Red rice" contains "tomato," so maybe the tomato man (Andrew Smith) knows something...Augusta Archives gave me a "Reduced Prices" as a "red rice(s)" hit. "Mild-red Rice" was another "hit." No early citation was found. John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999), pg. 267: _red rice._ Also, "Spanish rice." A southern seasoned rice dish made with tomato to give it color. It is often served with shrimp. David Rosengarten's IT'S ALL AMERICAN FOOD (2003), pg. 298: _Red Rice_ This side dish from Charleston and Savannah is not as well known as Louisiana's Dirty Rice. But a dish remarkably similar to Red Rice--namely, the completely inaccurately named Spanish Rice--used to be a home and cafeteria staple all over the country. I love the great, dense, tomatoey mouthful of tender rice that this Red Rice recipe yields. (AUGUSTA ARCHIVES) 11 November 1976, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 2, Food Section, col. 1: Where else but in Charleston can you get "Arthur Washington's Red Rice," "baked Crabmeat Remick" or "Flounder a la Gherardi." A gourmet's guide to the most prestigious restaurants in that city by the sea is simply covered in a delightful cookbook entitled "Doin' the Charleston," by Molly Heady Sillers. (Col. 2--ed.) ARTHUR WASHINGTON'S CHARLESTON RED RICE (From Adger's Wharf) 4 slices bacon, cut in squares 1 small onion, chopped 1 bell pepper, chopped 1 can tomato paste salt and pepper to taste 4 cups cooked rice (Col. 3--ed.) Fry the bacon in a large skillet until crisp. Remove bacon and fry onion and bell pepper in grease until tender. Add tomato paste and cooked rice. Season to taste and add the bacon just before serving. Serves 6 to 8. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GEORGIA CHICKEN "Georgia Chicken" is a nice entry to be checked against Augusta Archives. Unfortunately, I didn't find much of anything. See Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG. Under "Adirondack steak," also mentioned are "Georgia chicken," "Arkansas chicken," "Chicago chicken," "Cincinnati chicken," "Irish chicken," "Boston woodcock," and more. DARE has 1971 for "Georgia chicken." 7 July 1957, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 9, col. 7: The group will be served a famous Georgia chicken barbecue supper with the Georgia unit in charge. (It's not clear what "Georgia chicken" means here, but it's "famous"--ed.) 24 December 1961, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 2, col. 2: Georgia chicken, pork and beef with dairy products will be served by College of Agriculture student groups. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FIVE-FINGERED SALUTE I was re-checking "Bronx cheer" in the SPORTING NEWS and ANCESTRY when I found the following "1918" citation for "five-fingered salute and Bronx cheers." The page clearly had "1948." I re-checked "five-fingered salute and Bronx cheers" on www.newspaperarchive.com. This one and only citation comes up--as 1948! The same search engine gives two different dates with two different searches! "Five fingered salute" does not appear in Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG or the HDAS. Both have many other "five finger" citations, however. 4 September 1948, MOUNT PLEASANT NEWS (Mount Pleasant, Iowa), pg.4, col. 3 photo caption: A FIVE-FINGERED saulte and Bronx cheers are directed at Rev. Lowell N. Cantrell, Boston, Mass., clergyman without a church who was arrested and found not guilty of "sauntering and loitering" as he picketed Boston armory, draft registration headquarters. But here he is picketing again. He was arrested a second time soon after picture of this demonstration was made. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MONEYS, TYPEWRITERS & SHAKESPEARE From pre-Roosevelt days? 1920s? 26 July 1951, HAWARDEN INDEPENDENT (Hawarden, Iowa), pg. , col. 1, "It Says Here" by R. T. G.: I remember when I was about a junior at Iowa U. we used to argue whether a whole lot of monkeys, pecking away at a whole lot of typewriters could reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare in a whole lot of years. At that time I was inclined to think that a billion monkeys, a billion typewriters and a billion years of steady pounding would accomplish everything that Shakespeare did in his short life--and maybe even improve a word here and there. The fellow across the hall thought that the odds were higher than that. He argued that it would take at least a trillion each of typewriters, monkeys and years. (This was in the pre-Roosevelt days when even a million looked big.) From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Mon Dec 22 10:17:27 2003 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 05:17:27 -0500 Subject: WOTY nominee - Political Label category Message-ID: I like Iragodox, but I've only seen it here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1111326,00.html And there aren't any hits on google. I suppose this one is a non-starter unless it gains some traction. -- Bruce Dykes Graphnet NOC From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Mon Dec 22 10:22:18 2003 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 05:22:18 -0500 Subject: WOTY nominee - Political Label category In-Reply-To: <1072088246.12164.7.camel@bkd_noc.graphnet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2003-12-22 at 05:17, Bruce Dykes wrote: > I like Iragodox, but I've only seen it here: > http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1111326,00.html > > And there aren't any hits on google. I should point out that I spelled it right when I plugged it into Google: Iraqodox. -- Bruce Dykes Graphnet NOC From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Mon Dec 22 10:26:32 2003 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:26:32 -0000 Subject: Five Fingered Salute Message-ID: > "Five fingered salute" does not appear in Jonathon Green's CASSELL > DICTIONARY OF SLANG or the HDAS. Both have many other "five finger" citations, > however. More relevant, dare I say, are the listed 'salutes': one- and two-finger, jailhouse, one-gun, Italian, Australian, Queensland, Barcoo and Salmon Arm. But I've never encountered the 'five-fingered' version nor can I envisage quite what it means. It sounds like a clenched fist, but while that can be aggressive or celebratory, it has surely never been derogatory (or at least in UK/US). Or a hand, waving in dismissal? If someone could enlighten me, I shall be happy to give it a home. Jonathon Green From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Mon Dec 22 13:13:03 2003 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas M. Paikeday) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:13:03 -0500 Subject: Fed up Message-ID: How does a message like this get garbled? The fault of the system, of my computer, or what? Help appreciated. T. M. P. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" To: Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 7:19 PM Subject: Re: Fed up > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Fed up > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > VGhpcyBsb29rcyBsaWtlIGEgYmxlbmQ6ICJmZWQgdXAgd2l0aCIgYW5kICJzaWNrIG9mIg0KIA0K > R2VyYWxkIENvaGVuDQoNCgktLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLSANCglGcm9tOiBBbWVy > aWNhbiBEaWFsZWN0IFNvY2lldHkgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIHNhZ2VoZW4gDQoJU2VudDogU3VuIDEy > LzIxLzIwMDMgNjoxNCBQTSANCglUbzogQURTLUxATElTVFNFUlYuVUdBLkVEVSANCglTdWJqZWN0 > OiBGZWQgdXANCgkNCgkNCg0KCUkgaGF2ZSBhbHdheXMgc2FpZCAiZmVkIHVwIHdpdGgiICBzdGhn > IG9yIG90aGVyLiAgT25lIG9mIG15IGRhdWdodGVycywgd2hvDQoJc3BlbnQgb25lIHllYXIgb2Yg > aGVyIGVhcmx5IGFkb2xlc2NlbmNlIGluIGFuIEVuZ2xpc2ggYm9hcmRpbmcgc2Nob29sLCBzYXlz > DQoJImZlZCB1cCBvZiwiIHdoaWNoIEkgYWx3YXlzIHRoaW5rIGlzIHNpbXBseSBhIG1pc3Rha2Uu > ICBUb2RheSwgaG93ZXZlciwgSQ0KCXJhbiBhY3Jvc3MgImZlZCB1cCBvZiIgaW4gYW4gRW5nbGlz > aCBub3ZlbCAgYW5kIGFtIHdvbmRlcmluZyBpZiB0aGlzIGlzDQoJb3JkaW5hcnkgRW5nbGlzaCB1 > c2FnZS4gSXMgaXQgbm9ybWFsIGluIGFueSBOb3J0aCBBbWVyaWNhbiByZWdpb24/DQoJQS4gTXVy > aWUNCgkNCg0K From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 22 14:40:07 2003 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 06:40:07 -0800 Subject: Hashhouse lingo queries: "milk crust," "on the cantaloupe," "Make it three all 'round." In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031221141125.0366aa80@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: --- "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: >... I don't recognize this "milk > crust" but I believe > "milk crust" was once used routinely to refer to > "crusty" (in the > post-vesicular phase I suppose) facial eczema in an > infant. So my > speculations would be (1) "milk crust" = "milk" (on > the cereal) + nonsense > "crust" to make a double-entendre and a rhyme, (2) > "milk crust" = something > crusty, maybe milk plus brown sugar (on the cereal)... >> -- Doug Wilson Milk crust = Cream? ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 22 16:23:26 2003 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:23:26 -0800 Subject: Fed up In-Reply-To: <93434D835E4A0040A4FB5343603B45130EEF41@umr-mail6.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 21, 2003, at 4:19 PM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > ["fed up of"] looks like a blend: "fed up with" and "sick of" similar to "bored of" ("bored with" x "tired of"). like gerald cohen, i'm interested in syntactic blends and have been collecting them for years. *but* these particular cases could have a non-blend explanation, namely that instead of selecting some specific and unpredictable object-marking preposition (in these two cases, "with"), the adjective is reverting to the default, all-purpose preposition of english, that is, "of". if so, what speakers who initiate the shift of prepositions are doing is not blending but simplifying the lexicon. in principle, it would be possible to assemble evidence again each of these proposals (blending, defaulting). (a) if we found adjectives that shifted from a marked preposition to "of" for which there was no semantically appropriate analogue with "of" -- admittedly, not an easy thing to find -- then we'd have evidence against the blending proposal. (b) and if we found adjectives that shifted from one marked preposition to a different marked preposition (rather than to the unmarked preposition "of"), then we'd have evidence against the defaulting proposal. still, these arguments would be very weak. i believe that blending and defaulting are *both* genuine mechanisms of change, with relatively clear attested examples. so maybe there's no way to tell, *in any particular case*, which mechanism is at work; in fact, different speakers who show the same shift might have different -- or even mixed -- motivations for doing so. (just to be clear, let me remind everyone, again, that most speakers with an innovative form are not themselves the innovators, but merely the vehicles of the form's spread, so that it makes no sense to ask after the grammatical rationale for their usage. they're just repeating what they hear.) a further complexity comes from the fact that the selection of object-marking prepositions is not a simple matter of regularity ("of") vs. idiosyncrasy (a marked preposition), since classes of adjectives (or verbs or nouns) can select prepositions on the basis of their semantics; there surely are semantically based subregularities in these selections, and these would have to be excluded if an argument of type (b) is to put forward. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 22 17:49:39 2003 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:49:39 -0500 Subject: Fed up In-Reply-To: <200312220500.AAA11757@babel.ling.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I think (whispering the two phrases to myself to see which one sounds more natural!) that 'fed up of' is my normal usage, and I'm from London. I can also say 'fed up with', but it's definitely more stilted. Maybe that's to do with the phonology? It seems easier to say 'fed up of', with consecutive coda-less syllables that do have onsets (/fe.duh.puh.vit/) than to say the version with a coda followed immediately by an onset (/fe.duhp.wi.dhit/) (please excuse the attempts at transcription without an e-mail ssystem that can cope with the IPA). Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Dec 22 17:54:22 2003 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:54:22 -0500 Subject: Fed up Message-ID: I believe we talked at one point about "bored of" as opposed to "bored with." Regards to all in the Holiday season, David Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society writes: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Damien Hall >Subject: Fed up >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I think (whispering the two phrases to myself to see which one sounds more >natural!) that 'fed up of' is my normal usage, and I'm from London. I >can also >say 'fed up with', but it's definitely more stilted. Maybe that's to do >with >the phonology? It seems easier to say 'fed up of', with consecutive >coda-less >syllables that do have onsets (/fe.duh.puh.vit/) than to say the version >with a >coda followed immediately by an onset (/fe.duhp.wi.dhit/) (please excuse >the >attempts at transcription without an e-mail ssystem that can cope with the >IPA). > >Damien Hall >University of Pennsylvania > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Dec 22 19:52:01 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 14:52:01 -0500 Subject: Fed up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Barnhart writes: I believe we talked at one point about "bored of" as opposed to "bored with." ~~~~~~~~~~ "Bored of" does seem to me to be a syntactic blend of "bored by (or with)" and "tired of." I think I only hear this from young children, but perhaps there are regional differences in this. A. Murie A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 22 21:20:40 2003 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:20:40 -0500 Subject: F.T.L. 'failure to launch' (into adult autonomy) Message-ID: (And I only knew it as "faster than light".) >From the NY Times: >>> December 22, 2003 For More People in 20's and 30's, Home Is Where the Parents Are By TAMAR LEWIN [...] Nancy Dye, president of Oberlin College, said that whereas most graduates used to go straight on to graduate school, having chosen at least a preliminary career path, many now stick around, uncertain of their direction. A few years ago, she said, "students came up with a new term, F.T.L. failure to launch." In interviews with dozens of 20-somethings, most say they share a sense that there is no right time to have completed their education, lived on their own or gotten married, that such fixed expectations have no place in their lives. And many see it as beneficial to step slowly and gradually into adult life. [...] Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company <<< -- Mark A. Mandel From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Dec 22 22:47:52 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:47:52 -0500 Subject: Fed up (of) In-Reply-To: <2BE3E0F4-349B-11D8-9DF0-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: I just heard a reporter on NPR say so-and-so are "concerned of" something (in a report on Iraq). Again, it sounds like the use of a default preposition instead of "with" or "about." At 08:23 AM 12/22/2003 -0800, you wrote: >On Dec 21, 2003, at 4:19 PM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > >>["fed up of"] looks like a blend: "fed up with" and "sick of" > >similar to "bored of" ("bored with" x "tired of"). > >like gerald cohen, i'm interested in syntactic blends and have been >collecting them for years. *but* these particular cases could have a >non-blend explanation, namely that instead of selecting some specific >and unpredictable object-marking preposition (in these two cases, >"with"), the adjective is reverting to the default, all-purpose >preposition of english, that is, "of". if so, what speakers who >initiate the shift of prepositions are doing is not blending but >simplifying the lexicon. > >in principle, it would be possible to assemble evidence again each of >these proposals (blending, defaulting). (a) if we found adjectives >that shifted from a marked preposition to "of" for which there was no >semantically appropriate analogue with "of" -- admittedly, not an easy >thing to find -- then we'd have evidence against the blending proposal. > (b) and if we found adjectives that shifted from one marked >preposition to a different marked preposition (rather than to the >unmarked preposition "of"), then we'd have evidence against the >defaulting proposal. > >still, these arguments would be very weak. i believe that blending and >defaulting are *both* genuine mechanisms of change, with relatively >clear attested examples. so maybe there's no way to tell, *in any >particular case*, which mechanism is at work; in fact, different >speakers who show the same shift might have different -- or even mixed >-- motivations for doing so. (just to be clear, let me remind >everyone, again, that most speakers with an innovative form are not >themselves the innovators, but merely the vehicles of the form's >spread, so that it makes no sense to ask after the grammatical >rationale for their usage. they're just repeating what they hear.) > >a further complexity comes from the fact that the selection of >object-marking prepositions is not a simple matter of regularity ("of") >vs. idiosyncrasy (a marked preposition), since classes of adjectives >(or verbs or nouns) can select prepositions on the basis of their >semantics; there surely are semantically based subregularities in these >selections, and these would have to be excluded if an argument of type >(b) is to put forward. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Mon Dec 22 23:44:53 2003 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:44:53 -0500 Subject: deedly-ball Message-ID: <> Per my wife, a costume historian: That sort of fringe was very popular in the 1920s and '30s (especially among cats and small children) for curtains, bedspreads, and almost any article of clothing or household fabric. The original name, from the French, was "pom-pon fringe", but it is generally pronounced and spelt "pom-pom". "Ball fringe" is probably the trade term. Se?n Fitzpatrick From douglas at NB.NET Tue Dec 23 01:03:30 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:03:30 -0500 Subject: Hashhouse lingo queries: "milk crust," "on the cantaloupe," "Make it three all 'round." In-Reply-To: <20031222144007.87371.qmail@web9707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Milk crust = Cream? Seems reasonable. Note that the quotation is from a cartoon which was more or less making fun of the hashhouse slang. Therefore some of the items may have been made up for the cartoon and may not have a knowable meaning. -- Doug Wilson From dwhause at JOBE.NET Tue Dec 23 01:50:32 2003 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 19:50:32 -0600 Subject: Five Fingered Salute Message-ID: In conjunction with Bronx cheer, I think the "five fingered salute" is probably open palm toward the person to be disrespected, thumb to nose, fingers spread and waving, tongue out. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathon Green" > "Five fingered salute" does not appear in Jonathon Green's CASSELL > DICTIONARY OF SLANG or the HDAS. Both have many other "five finger" citations, > however. If someone could enlighten me, I shall be happy to give it a home. Jonathon Green From douglas at NB.NET Tue Dec 23 01:53:56 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:53:56 -0500 Subject: Five Fingered Salute In-Reply-To: <002701c3c876$14affd80$0b01a8c0@green> Message-ID: > > "Five fingered salute" does not appear in Jonathon Green's CASSELL > > DICTIONARY OF SLANG or the HDAS. Both have many other "five finger" >citations, > > however. > > >More relevant, dare I say, are the listed 'salutes': one- and two-finger, >jailhouse, one-gun, Italian, Australian, Queensland, Barcoo and Salmon Arm. >But I've never encountered the 'five-fingered' version nor can I envisage >quite what it means. It sounds like a clenched fist, but while that can be >aggressive or celebratory, it has surely never been derogatory (or at least >in UK/US). Or a hand, waving in dismissal? If someone could enlighten me, I >shall be happy to give it a home. > >Jonathon Green I have heard the expression, but I've forgotten what it meant (if I ever knew). By analogy with "one-finger salute", all five fingers would be expected to be extended, I think. Quick Google shows at least two distinct senses: (1) the cocking of a snook; (2) something like a wave of the hand. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 23 02:28:34 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:28:34 EST Subject: Grant Took Richmond (1920) Message-ID: Subj: Grant Took Richmond (1920) Date: 12/22/2003 9:15:52 PM Eastern Standard Time From: Bapopik To: ADS-L at listserv.uga.edu Yesterday's Dallas Cowboys (my team) victory over the New York Giants marked an interesting turnaround for both football teams. Giants coach Jim Fassell had been told he won't be back. In 1999, George Thompson (NYU Bobst librarian to the stars--I mean the Olsen Twins) posted this: This past weekend one of NYC's local pro football teams was whipped 50 to 21. The NYTimes quoted the coach as saying afterwards "they went right through us like Grant took Richmond". . . . (NYTimes,September 21, 1999, p. D4, col. 2) This is an old and familiar phrase to me, having heard it often from my father in the 1950s,though he would phrase it more consistently, eg., "he took him likeGrant took Richmond." Presumably this expression dates to when the Civil War was still a living memory -- it's hard to believe that itwas coined by some history buff and taken up by a generation that wouldn't have understood the allusion. Still, I don't find it in The Making of America. The other source I checked was the RLIN cooperative library catalog, which showed a screenplay from 1949:Miss Grant Takes Richmond, by Nat Perrin and Frank Tashlin. Is it possible that it originates with some piece of mid-20th century popular culture? I would expect Gone with the Wind to have given us*"like Sherman took Atlanta".Any thoughts? My apologies to our southern correspondents if this awakens painful memories .GAT I looked at the SPORTING NEWS, without luck. AUGUSTA ARCHIVES didn't have anything early. ANCESTRY helped. There are over 1,000 hits; I didn't check all of them, but the following looks like a nationwide ad. The phrase is no later than 1920. 5 October 1920, FAYETTEVILLE DEMOCRAT (Fayetteville, Arkansas), pg. 6?, col. 1 ad: Constance Talmadge "The Love Expert" A John Emerson Anita Loos Production She knew her soul mate the moment she clasped hands with him, but ot get him she first had to marry off his entire family. Talk about a miracle worker, Zowie! Old ones or cold ones, longs or blondes, veterans or youngsters, she matched 'em like Grant took RIchmond. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Dec 23 02:34:33 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:34:33 -0600 Subject: Arnold Zwicky's collection of blends (was:Re: Fed up) Message-ID: At 8:23 AM -0800 12/22/03, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >.like gerald cohen, i'm interested in syntactic blends and have been collecting them for years. Arnold, How many do you have? Any plans to publish them? Gerald From pds at VISI.COM Tue Dec 23 02:57:24 2003 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:57:24 -0600 Subject: Fed up In-Reply-To: <20031222130858.9B29E61AD@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Gerald's message was UU-encoded. Decoded, the message reads: >>>>> This looks like a blend: "fed up with" and "sick of" Gerald Cohen -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of sagehen Sent: Sun 12/21/2003 6:14 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Fed up I have always said "fed up with" sthg or other. One of my daughters, who spent one year of her early adolescence in an English boarding school, says "fed up of," which I always think is simply a mistake. Today, however, I ran across "fed up of" in an English novel and am wondering if this is ordinary English usage. Is it normal in any North American region? A. Murie <<<<< This appears to have come from Microsoft Outlook. To get rid of the gibberish, Gerald need to go to Tools>Options>Mail Format>Settings. There he needs to select MIME rather than UU-encode. --Tom Kysilko, who learned to use WinZip to decode such messages from GSCole. At 12/22/2003 08:13 AM -0500, Thomas M. Paikeday wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Thomas M. Paikeday" >Subject: Re: Fed up >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >How does a message like this get garbled? The fault of the system, of my >computer, or what? Help appreciated. > >T. M. P. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" >To: >Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 7:19 PM >Subject: Re: Fed up > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail >header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > > Subject: Re: Fed up > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >----- > > > > >VGhpcyBsb29rcyBsaWtlIGEgYmxlbmQ6ICJmZWQgdXAgd2l0aCIgYW5kICJzaWNrIG9mIg0KIA0K > > >R2VyYWxkIENvaGVuDQoNCgktLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLSANCglGcm9tOiBBbWVy > > >aWNhbiBEaWFsZWN0IFNvY2lldHkgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIHNhZ2VoZW4gDQoJU2VudDogU3VuIDEy > > >LzIxLzIwMDMgNjoxNCBQTSANCglUbzogQURTLUxATElTVFNFUlYuVUdBLkVEVSANCglTdWJqZWN0 > > >OiBGZWQgdXANCgkNCgkNCg0KCUkgaGF2ZSBhbHdheXMgc2FpZCAiZmVkIHVwIHdpdGgiICBzdGhn > > >IG9yIG90aGVyLiAgT25lIG9mIG15IGRhdWdodGVycywgd2hvDQoJc3BlbnQgb25lIHllYXIgb2Yg > > >aGVyIGVhcmx5IGFkb2xlc2NlbmNlIGluIGFuIEVuZ2xpc2ggYm9hcmRpbmcgc2Nob29sLCBzYXlz > > >DQoJImZlZCB1cCBvZiwiIHdoaWNoIEkgYWx3YXlzIHRoaW5rIGlzIHNpbXBseSBhIG1pc3Rha2Uu > > >ICBUb2RheSwgaG93ZXZlciwgSQ0KCXJhbiBhY3Jvc3MgImZlZCB1cCBvZiIgaW4gYW4gRW5nbGlz > > >aCBub3ZlbCAgYW5kIGFtIHdvbmRlcmluZyBpZiB0aGlzIGlzDQoJb3JkaW5hcnkgRW5nbGlzaCB1 > > >c2FnZS4gSXMgaXQgbm9ybWFsIGluIGFueSBOb3J0aCBBbWVyaWNhbiByZWdpb24/DQoJQS4gTXVy > > aWUNCgkNCg0K From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 23 03:20:31 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:20:31 EST Subject: innovators and followers (was Fed Up) Message-ID: Yes, and even this is not complicated enough. After all, if innovative forms didn't make some linguistic sense, followers will not follow the innovators (all other things being equal). So innovations of the "fed up with/fed up of" variety are probably real options for most people--i.e., a number of people will be inclined to innovate from time to time. Moreover, innovations surely begin variably--sometimes one will say one thing, sometimes another (for example, that Southern US "to" that occurs off and on in a sentence such as "Shall I ask him to call you?" and "They almost had the ceiling to fall on their heads" cf. Yankee "I helped him fry/to fry the bacon"). I first heard that as an adult, and I don't care how many times I hear it, I'll NEVER say it! My daughters never heard it from me, but THEY say it. And then social factors play a role as well: I am sure that as a child I heard both "He don't" and "He doesn't," but I quite regularly SAID "He don't" while (unconsciously) writing in my school work "He doesn't." I was a freshman in college before someone made me self-conscious about my spoken "He don't"--at which point I became a categorical "He doesn't" speaker. In a message dated 12/22/03 11:23:54 AM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > (just to be clear, let me remind > everyone, again, that most speakers with an innovative form are not > themselves the innovators, but merely the vehicles of the form's > spread, so that it makes no sense to ask after the grammatical > rationale for their usage.? they're just repeating what they hear.) > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 23 03:53:51 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:53:51 -0500 Subject: Murphy's Law Antedated to 1952! In-Reply-To: <106.2a8460c7.2d190e7f@aol.com> Message-ID: Lately I have been thinking that Murphy's Law may not have originated in an aviation or engineering context after all. For example, there are references to it as an old theatrical saying beginning in 1957, not that long after the earliest aviation/engineering evidence (1955). Now I have found an earlier citation completely unrelated to aviation/engineering and presented as an old mountaineering saying, perhaps a Peruvian one: "It was at the base of the mountain [Yerupaja in Peru] that an old legend came true, the high country one that states: 'Anything that can possibly go wrong does.'" Los Angeles Times, Aug. 22, 1952, page B5 This is not referred to as "Murphy's Law," and is not an antedating of that term, but clearly antedates the proverb. The term "Murphy's Law" in fact loses its importance as evidence accumulates that the Edwards Air Force Base story was attached to an already existing saying. I realize that the Edwards Air Force Base story is supposed to have happened in 1949, but extensive investigations by Barry Popik, myself, and others have failed to find even a shred of pre-1955 documentation. It should be noted that the above Los Angeles Times passage is taken from a review of John Sack's book, The Butcher. The proverb may well occur in that book itself and the book may clarify whether it is a Peruvian saying. I will get hold of a copy of Sack's book and check this out. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Tue Dec 23 14:58:24 2003 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:58:24 -0500 Subject: WOTY nominee - Newspeak category Message-ID: The head of the MTA here in NYC announced that he was laying off the elevator operators, in spite of the fact that he promised there would be no service cuts. The layoffs were labeled as a 'convenience cut.' -- Bruce Dykes Graphnet NOC From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Dec 23 15:34:36 2003 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:34:36 EST Subject: Sky Hook (1971) Message-ID: In a message dated > Sat, 20 Dec 2003 18:13:55 -0500, Se?n Fitzpatrick < > grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET> writes > > < with a straight face, put in a requisition for a "bit bucket". > > Does the digital community have "Go ask the [bo's'n, Scout Master, > supply sergeant,] for the " jokes? Do geeks ask new > guys to do Teoma searches for good prices on accelerated inverted > transistoids? I do not know of any snipe-hunt jokes in the digital community (snipes are purely analog?). Digital novices are so colorfully inept that perhaps there is no need of snipe hunts to entertain veterans. The "bit bucket" is an old gag but as far as I can recall is an in-joke among veterans rather than a snipe. The boss I quoted was pulling the leg of non-technical personnel in the admin office. This same boss also liked to tell of the "Press Support Detachment" with a Table of Organization and Equipment strength of thirty bartenders. I once perpetrated something similar, entirely without intention. I put in a requisition for a "gender-changer" and got a long-distance call from Division asking if this were a joke? No, it wasn't, I needed to mate two male plugs (ADS-Lers, make up your own joke.) In case you're interested, the US Army standard-issue tall tale is the "Mess Kit Repair Batallion". - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Dec 23 15:41:21 2003 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:41:21 EST Subject: Grant Took Richmond (1920) Message-ID: But Grant did not take Richmond. He was already south and west of Richmond when he chased Lee westward to Appomattox Court House. RIchmond was captured, rather absent-mindedly, by African-American troops of Weitzel's division of the Army of the James who were chasing Lee and found that the main road westward happened to run through Richmond. They stopped to put out fires in the city, thereby preventing Richmond from burning to the ground as did Columbia, South Carolina. Citizens of Richmond should be thankful to these African-Americans for keeping their city from being wiped off the map. - Jim Landau From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 23 15:57:54 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:57:54 -0500 Subject: Murphy's Law in 1952 Book In-Reply-To: <200312230353.hBN3rrV03664@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: It turns out that Murphy's Law does appear in the 1952 book reviewed in the Los Angeles Times: "ANYTHING THAT CAN POSSIBLY GO WRONG, DOES. -- Ancient mountaineering adage" John Sack, _The Butcher: The Ascent of Yerupaja_ (1952), epigram, page 2 On the basis of the above citation and other early references to this as an established proverb in various fields, such as the theater, I will assert that the standard Edwards Air Force Base story of the origin of Murphy's Law (supposedly happened in 1949, not documented in any way until 1955) represents at most the application of an old saying to a new engineering context. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From e.pearsons at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Dec 23 16:26:16 2003 From: e.pearsons at EARTHLINK.NET (Enid Pearsons) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:26:16 -0500 Subject: Fed up Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "sagehen" To: Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 2:52 PM Subject: Re: Fed up | "Bored of" does seem to me to be a syntactic blend of "bored by (or |with)" | and "tired of." I think I only hear this from young children, but perhaps | there are regional differences in this. I first heard it from young children as well, but those children are now in their mid-thirties, and they're still saying it. Enid Pearsons From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 23 17:11:06 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:11:06 -0500 Subject: Correction of Murphy's Law in 1952 Book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, Fred Shapiro wrote: > "ANYTHING THAT CAN POSSIBLY GO WRONG, DOES. > -- Ancient mountaineering adage" > John Sack, _The Butcher: The Ascent of Yerupaja_ (1952), > epigram, page 2 I knew I was going to do that. I meant, of course, epigraph. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Dec 23 17:30:02 2003 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:30:02 -0500 Subject: More on Musical "Jazz" Message-ID: I will send my thoughts on all this in a couple of weeks, when I will have the time for some extensive typing. Be warned. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Dec 23 17:52:21 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:52:21 -0600 Subject: More on Musical "Jazz" Message-ID: We are duly warned and eagerly waiting. Gerald Cohen -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of George Thompson Sent: Tue 12/23/2003 11:30 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: More on Musical "Jazz" I will send my thoughts on all this in a couple of weeks, when I will have the time for some extensive typing. Be warned. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > From AAllan at AOL.COM Tue Dec 23 19:14:17 2003 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:14:17 -0500 Subject: Correction of Murphy's Law in 1952 Book Message-ID: > I knew I was going to do that. I meant, of course, > epigraph. > > Fred Shapiro Better than epitaph. Allan Metcalf From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Tue Dec 23 20:35:19 2003 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 20:35:19 -0000 Subject: Five Fingered Salute Message-ID: > In conjunction with Bronx cheer, I think the "five fingered salute" is > probably open palm toward the person to be disrespected, thumb to nose, > fingers spread and waving, tongue out. That's the sense in which I have encountered it. We Brits would more commonly call it "cocking a snook" at somebody. In my piece on the latter phrase, at , I describe "five fingered salute" as an American expression. In view of comments on this list that suggest it isn't known, might that be incorrect? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From AAllan at AOL.COM Tue Dec 23 23:12:33 2003 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 18:12:33 EST Subject: Annual Luncheon at ADS Annual Meeting Message-ID: At last the full details can be told! At 12:15 p.m. Saturday, January 10 in Hampton A & B of the Sheraton Boston, the American Dialect Society will hold its annual luncheon. The featured speaker will be Charles Meyer of the University of Massachusetts, Boston. His topic: ?Can you Really Study Language Variation in Linguistic Corpora?? The meal is described below in all its delectable detail. It's yours for $30 a person. There's no time to ask you to send payment in advance. Reservations in advance will be appreciated, however. Just notify me directly (not posting to ADS-L): AAllan at aol.com. Make checks payable to the American Dialect Society, of course, or you can bring cash. You're also invited to add the (COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY) ADS registration fee when you pay for the luncheon. Officially, as guests of LSA, our members must register with LSA. Unofficially, we welcome $20 from regular members and $10 from students to help with ADS expenses. You'll get a sticker for your badge when you do. The newsletter of the ADS didn't get published (mea culpa), but you can see the whole ADS meeting program on our website, www.americandialect.org. - Allan Metcalf, ADS executive secretary Mango Chicken Baby Spinach with Radicchio, Endive, Plum Tomatoes, Macadamia Encrusted Chevre with Ranch Dressing Freshly Baked Rolls and Flatbreads, Sweet Butter and Coffee Service ~ Baked Breast of Chicken Stuffed with Mango, Tri-colored Peppers and Red Onions with a Ginger, Lemongrass Cream Batonnets of Zucchini and Yellow Squash Broccoli Florettes and Baby Carrots Caribbean Style Rice with Red Beans ~ Banana Chocolate Chip Bread Pudding with Rum Cream From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 24 00:14:10 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 19:14:10 -0500 Subject: HSA, CDO, Frankenpet Message-ID: HSA From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 23 December 2003, pg. A14, col. 1: The new year will bring something of a revolution in American health care. Insurance companies such as Golden Rule, Fortis and Aetna will soon be marketing Health Savings Accounts, which promise a new era of individual choice for health insurance. HSAs, the saving grace of the Medicate prescription drug bill, are the new and improvedversion of Medical Savings Accounts. They promise individuals and employers relief from spiraling health costs, and without the need for restrictive HMOs. --------------------------------------------------------------- CDO Also in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL, pg. C1, col. 2: As with high-profile bankruptcies by other companies, such as Enron Corp and WorldCom Inc., some of the biggest losers from the Parmalat filing likely would face exposure as a result of holdings in financial products known as collateralized-debt obligations, or CDOs. These products package dozens of loans and other types of credit risk, which are then sliced into portions offering varying amounts of risk and return. --------------------------------------------------------------- FRANKENPET From the new free newspaper, AM NEW YORK, 23 December 2003, pg. 1, col. 1: _"Frankenpet"--_ _dog sans fleas_ Scientists believe they areclose to a hi-tech cure for the most common curse upon man's best friend--etenocephalides canis, the common dog flea. (That's great! Now, as the saying goes, you lie down with dogs, and you wake up with...dogs?--ed.) From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Dec 24 01:14:43 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 20:14:43 -0500 Subject: Five Fingered Salute In-Reply-To: <3FE8A707.11691.7E3812@localhost> Message-ID: Michael Quinion writes: >> In conjunction with Bronx cheer, I think the "five fingered salute" is >> probably open palm toward the person to be disrespected, thumb to nose, >> fingers spread and waving, tongue out. > >That's the sense in which I have encountered it. We Brits would more >commonly call it "cocking a snook" at somebody. In my piece on the >latter phrase, at , I >describe "five fingered salute" as an American expression. In view of >comments on this list that suggest it isn't known, might that be >incorrect? ~~~~~~~ I don't think the expression is unknown here, but it is, or was, more usually called "thumbing your nose" at someone. As kids, we understood it to mean "kiss my ass." The gesture and the expression have been pretty much superceded by "the finger," once felt to be ruder, but through familiarity losing its sting. I always thought "cocking a snook" meant just an upward flicking of the thumb on the tip of the nose, with the hand relaxed, a more dismissive than aggressive gesture. A. Murie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 24 03:09:18 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:09:18 -0500 Subject: Grant Took Richmond (1916); Senegal in Harlem Message-ID: GRANT TOOK RICHMOND (continued) From ProQuest. TH' MORNIN'S MORNIN'; The Home Guards Meet. BY DAMON RUNYON (New York American.). The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 12, 1916. p. 9 (1 page): "What a sucker they're makin' of that guy Tex Rickard," mused the tall fellow. "They're takin' him like Grant took Richmond." DEMPSEY, FIT FOR BATTLE, MUST AVOID GOING STALE; Challenger's Appearance Impresses Leonard More Than Willard's. By BENNY LEONARD.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 28, 1919. p. 13 (1 page) : All New York seems to be here, and Toledo is taking 'em like Grant toook Richmond, only more so. COLLYER'S COMMENT on the SPORT of KINGS; PIMLIOO SELECTIONS. HUNTINGTON SELECTIONS. LATONIA SELECTIONS. WHEELING SELECTIONS. By BERT E. COLLYER.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 2, 1923. p. 24 (1 page): List to the line of stuff wigwagged to me from old Baltimore: "They're going to 'take' these mutuel machines just like Grant took Richmond. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SENEGAL IN HARLEM I'll be in Senegal soon. Sietsema has written about "cheb" before. http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0352/sietsema.php Counter Culture by Robert Sietsema Gift of the Maggi A salty liquid seasoning faces off against ketchup in Harlem December 22nd, 2003 2:00 PM La Marmite 2264 Eighth Avenue 212.666.0653 The national dish of Senegal was inspired by paella, which was brought to the west coast of Africa by Iberian traders in the 16th century. Made under ideal conditions around Dakar, where a cornucopia of vegetables is readily available, Senegalese thiebou djenne (pronounced "cheb-boo-jenn") rivals bouillabaisse in its perfection and complexity. Here's the recipe: Pieces of fish?usually small tuna that can be caught from pirogues?are stuffed with a paste of cilantro, garlic, and green onion, fried in palm oil, and removed. Water is added and vegetables, one by one, are boiled and pulled out. Rice is then cooked in this oily broth with bits of sun-dried stockfish and tamarind. When the rice is done it's bright red from the palm oil and highly flavored by all the ingredients that have gone before. The fish and vegetables are arranged on top of the rice, and the dish is served by the matriarch of the family, who carefully distributes each morsel. The best cheb I've ever had was bought from a woman on the Senegalese island of Gor?e, who dispensed takeout meals from a ground-floor kitchen in one of the pastel colonial houses. The customers were mainly African bachelors and low-level American and French foreign-service workers. On most nights, her version boasted nine vegetables, and I learned from her to judge cheb by counting the number of vegetables. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 24 04:58:33 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:58:33 -0500 Subject: Red Rice (1936) Message-ID: Just in time for New Year's. From ProQuest: 1. Hopping John is Magical, Dainty and Easy to Make; Traditional New Year's Eve Dish of South Carolina Eaten as a Ritual by Rich and Poor Alike -- Cow Peas, or Black Beans, are Base. By Elisabeth E. Poe.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 11, 1936. p. X17 (1 page): _Red Rice._ Half pound bacon 1 small onion 1 cup tomatoes 2 cups cooked rice Cut the bacon in small pieces and fry. Remove from the skillet and brown the minced onion in the bacon fat. Add the tomatoes and cooked rice. Blend well and serve. (From the Congressional Cook Book?--ed.) 2. Anne's Reader Exchange Dreaming of a Green Summer; COOKING Q STENCILS AND SUCH HOBBY COURSE A REQUEST MULLED CIDER The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jan 17, 1965. p. 115 (1 page) 3. Red Wine Spices Spaghetti Sauce; LOW COST LASAGNA CHARLESTON RICE RECIPE REQUESTS Anne's Reader Exchange. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Feb 4, 1965. p. C20 (1 page) 4. Georgia on My Mind; Dinner at the McKinnons -- The 20th Century Slips Away, 'Old Savannah' Lives Once More Dinner at the McKinnons' in 'Old Savannah' By William Rice. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jun 8, 1980. p. K1 (2 pages) 5. The Chinese 'Soul Food'; Earthy Greens and Clay Pot Cooking From the Hakkas Chinese Soul Food Greens & Clay Pot Cooking By Marian Cromley Special to The Washington Post. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: May 5, 1985. p. G1 (3 pages) 6. The South's Lost Soul; In Charleston, All Trend, No Tradition RICHMAN'S TABLE Searching for Soul Food By Phyllis C. Richman Washington Post Staff Writer CHARLESTON, S.C.. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Sep 30, 1987. p. E1 (2 pages) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 24 07:38:23 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 02:38:23 EST Subject: "Nobody Goes There--It's Too Crowded" (1957) Message-ID: "NOBODY GOES THERE--IT'S TOO CROWDED" This is attributed to New York Yankee player and manager Yogi Berra. Some say the restaurant was Mama Leone's. However, here it is, at an early date, in a Walter Winchell column. John McNulty wrote for THE NEW YORKER: 30 September 1957, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE (GA), pg. 12, col. 1: _Walter Winchell_ _Madison Ave, going "Mad"_ MADISON AVENUE (the Home of Big Advertising) is now called Mad Avenue, for obvious reasons..."The World of John McNulty" is a readable collection of his essays. It includes a cabbie's classic crack about a popular joynt: "Nobody goes there any more. It's too crowded." (CATNYP) The world of John McNulty, with an appreciation by James Thurber. Imprint Garden City, N.Y., Doubleday, 1957 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- OT: JOHN HESS ON _TIMES_ OMBUDSMAN DAN OKRENT http://www.nypress.com/16/52/news&columns/rotation.cfm This week's NEW YORK PRESS has an interesting piece by John L. Hess titled "Therapeutic Times: And a few humble suggestions for Dan Okrent." Hess is the author of MY TIMES: A MEMOIR OF DISSENT (2003). With his wife Karen Hess, he wrote THE TASTE OF AMERICA (1977). Karen Hess is one of the editors of the forthcoming OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK. I recently wrote to Dan Okrent. You'll find out about it the Sunday after next. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 24 16:54:46 2003 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:54:46 -0800 Subject: Arnold Zwicky's collection of blends (was:Re: Fed up) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Dec 22, 2003, at 6:34 PM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > At 8:23 AM -0800 12/22/03, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> .like gerald cohen, i'm interested in syntactic blends and have been >> collecting them for years. > > > Arnold, > How many do you have? Any plans to publish them? i'm away from my files, but the total collection isn't huge and it's very scattershot. what i *do* have is pretty large collections of blend or possibly blend-originated examples of a few specific types, for example WH+that ("I wonder how many people that were at the party") and GoToGo ("She's going to San Francisco and talk on firewalls"). i've published on the first (as has aimo seppa"nen) and have a grad student working on the second (using my collection plus a very large collection assembled by david denison). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From lsavan at VERIZON.NET Wed Dec 24 18:16:03 2003 From: lsavan at VERIZON.NET (Leslie Savan) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:16:03 -0500 Subject: pile on Message-ID: Does anyone have early citations for the phrase "pile on"? I assume it comes from football--or perhaps traffic accidents. Any ideas? From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Dec 24 19:20:20 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:20:20 -0600 Subject: "Nobody Goes There--It's Too Crowded" (1957) Message-ID: About 15 years ago an article (by William Safire, I think) mentioned that Yogi Berra was being credited with many sayings that he had never really said. It was sort of cool to say, "As Yogi Berra would say,..." and then fill in the blank with whatever folksy philosophical or mildly nonsensical statement one had in mind. Looks like one more might now be added to the list. (I say "might" because Berra was already in the major leagues by 1957). Gerald Cohen P.S. His most famous saying is "It ain't over 'til it's over." Is that one of his genuine contributions? At 2:38 AM -0500 12/24/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > This is attributed to New York Yankee player and manager Yogi Berra. Some >say the restaurant was Mama Leone's. However, here it is, at an early date, >in a Walter Winchell column. John McNulty wrote for THE NEW YORKER: > > 30 September 1957, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE (GA), pg. 12, col. 1: > _Walter Winchell_ >_Madison Ave, going "Mad"_ > MADISON AVENUE (the Home of Big Advertising) is now called Mad Avenue, for >obvious reasons..."The World of John McNulty" is a readable collection of his >essays. It includes a cabbie's classic crack about a popular joynt: "Nobody >goes there any more. It's too crowded." > >(CATNYP) >The world of John McNulty, with an appreciation by James Thurber. >Imprint Garden City, N.Y., Doubleday, 1957 > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 24 22:28:10 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 17:28:10 -0500 Subject: "Nobody Goes There--It's Too Crowded" (1957) In-Reply-To: <12c.38593f14.2d1a9c6f@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > This is attributed to New York Yankee player and manager Yogi Berra. Some > say the restaurant was Mama Leone's. However, here it is, at an early date, > in a Walter Winchell column. John McNulty wrote for THE NEW YORKER: McNulty wrote "Nobody goes there anymore. Its too crowded." in the New Yorker, 10 Feb. 1943. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 24 22:31:22 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 17:31:22 -0500 Subject: "It Ain't Over 'Til It's Over" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Dec 2003, Gerald Cohen wrote: > P.S. His most famous saying is "It ain't over 'til it's over." Is > that one of his genuine contributions? Yes, as far as I know. But I have had trouble pinning down an early source for this; the earliest I have is 1980. Can anyone provide pre-1980 evidence (I know it's supposed to have been said in connection with the Mets' great pennant drive of 1973, but contemporaneous citations appear to be difficult to come by). Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Dec 25 00:47:50 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 19:47:50 -0500 Subject: "It Ain't Over 'Til It's Over" Message-ID: If you subscribe to the theory(as I do) that the phrase is a play on "It ain't over 'til the [fat][church]lady sings," then Berra probably didn't say it in 1973, or even before 1976 or so. If you think Berra used it in 1973, then one could assume that the 'fat/church lady' was a play on Berra. But I doubt it. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Shapiro" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 5:31 PM Subject: "It Ain't Over 'Til It's Over" > On Wed, 24 Dec 2003, Gerald Cohen wrote: > > > P.S. His most famous saying is "It ain't over 'til it's over." Is > > that one of his genuine contributions? > > Yes, as far as I know. But I have had trouble pinning down an early > source for this; the earliest I have is 1980. Can anyone provide > pre-1980 evidence (I know it's supposed to have been said in connection > with the Mets' great pennant drive of 1973, but contemporaneous citations > appear to be difficult to come by). > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 25 01:38:47 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 20:38:47 -0500 Subject: "It Ain't Over 'Til It's Over" In-Reply-To: <200312250048.hBP0mJk07347@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Dec 2003, Sam Clements wrote: > If you subscribe to the theory(as I do) that the phrase is a play on "It > ain't over 'til the [fat][church]lady sings," then Berra probably didn't say > it in 1973, or even before 1976 or so. > > If you think Berra used it in 1973, then one could assume that the > 'fat/church lady' was a play on Berra. But I doubt it. I've done a lot of research on "the fat lady sings" and on Berraisms, and it never occurred to me that one of these was a play on the other; I just figured they were independent synonymous sayings. Since my previous e-mail, I have found a 1977 usage of "ain't over..." on Nexis. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Dec 25 02:52:05 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 21:52:05 -0500 Subject: "It Ain't Over 'Til It's Over" Message-ID: So, who uttered that 1977 cite? SC. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Shapiro" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 8:38 PM Subject: Re: "It Ain't Over 'Til It's Over" > Since my previous e-mail, I have found a 1977 usage of "ain't over..." on > Nexis. > > Fred Shapiro From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 25 03:05:13 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:05:13 -0500 Subject: "It Ain't Over 'Til It's Over" In-Reply-To: <001901c3ca92$153c1180$7627a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Dec 2003, Sam Clements wrote: > So, who uttered that 1977 cite? Earl Weaver quoting Yogi Berra. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 25 12:51:07 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 07:51:07 EST Subject: Gets Late Early; Reggie=Registration; beta.newspaperarchive.com Message-ID: Happy holidays to all. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- GETS LATE EARLY This continues a study of Yogi-isms using the newly available full-text SPORTING NEWS and other databases. If Fred Shapiro has earlier, I apologize. 7 August 1971, SPORTING NEWS, pg. 19, col. 1: Better than anyone, Yogi explained the problem of picking up a flyball in Yankee Stadium in the autumnal haze when a combination of cigartette smoke, sunlight and shadows creates a visual hazard. "It gets late early out there," said Yogi. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- REGGIE-REGISTRATION "Reggie" didn't make the most recent volume of DARE. I rarely hear "reggie" for "registration," although I ask for the vehicle registration all the time. "You want the reggie?" some (but not many) people say. The people who say "reggie" are almost all police officers. Perhaps that should be recorded--if not in DARE, then possibly in the HDAS or OED. OT: My favorite dialect expression at work? That would involve Spanish speakers. "Let me explain you." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BETA.NEWSPAPERACHIVE.COM Ancestry.com doesn't seem to be working right now, so I switched to www.newspaperarchive.com. If you have nothing to do today, then buy a day pass here. It's cheaper than a NYC movie. The search engine seems to be changed/improved. There are now thumnails that you can use. For example, here is "Windy City" before 1885 (something the Chicago Public Library can't tell its own citizens): Decatur Daily Republican - 8/24/1880 ...in shaking the ivories with a sport of the WINDY CITY. 'The Electric John Dillon's new.....to tbe deeUlon of the Democratic convention CITY DEPARTMENT. OHCAP 169 pieces American.....Fluid Stoves. They are the best in the CITY. 10-dtf Tut funeral of the late J nines.....and from the depot, and to any part of the CITY. at the St. Nicholas Hotel wi I receive.. Decatur, Illinois Tuesday, August 24, 1880 629 k Newark Daily Advocate - 7/30/1885 ...be a splendid opportunity to visit the "WINDY CITY, as the fare for the round trip.....escort of the remains arrival in New York CITY, to the CITY Hall, and their delivery. A.....the contemplated national monument in the CITY of Naw York, and the general manager.....will, after proper consultation with the CITY authorities, prepare a s.-heilule of the.. Newark, Ohio Thursday, July 30, 1885 908 k Fort Wayne Daily Gazette - 7/22/1881 ...going o between the town aforesaid and th WINDY CITY yclept Chicago. But th idiot is.....gti mnntLa Three 2. Persons leaving the CITY during th fjmmer months can have the.....bay for a few years and well washed, that CITY would soon be as godly a place as could.....evening, it befthe second wedding in this CITY in ich a Chinese and an American 'oman.. Fort Wayne, Indiana Friday, July 22, 1881 512 k Fort Wayne Daily Gazette - 7/22/1881 ...going on between the town aforesaid and the WINDY CITY yclept Chicago. But this idiot is.....JS dtimaaUu 5 Thrse S .Persons leaving the CITY during the 9-tmrnef months can have the.....bay for a few years and well washed, that CITY Would soon be as godly a place as could.....it be ing the second wedding in this CITY in which a Chinese and an American woman.. Fort Wayne, Indiana Friday, July 22, 1881 486 k Newark Daily Advocate - 3/31/1884 ...cheaply securedBrice Ellis who went to the "WINDY CITY" a few days ago, hat secured a.....OFFICE OVER THE FRAXKMX BASK. Election of CITY Officers CITY OF NEWAEK, MAYOR'S OFFICE.....DAILY ADVOCATE TBUCPHONK CONNECTION. __ The CITY circulation ot the DAILY ADVOCATE 10.....Newark. THE GDOUUII RIOT. The People of Our CITY Greatly Excited. The DAIMT ADVOCATE can.. Newark, Ohio Monday, March 31, 1884 665 k Indiana Progress - 7/18/1878 ...usage would be wholly impracticable in the WINDY CITY. Cover up a whole block with a.....and 102, Mr. Robinson and wife of Mountain CITY, native Kentuckians, married eightytwo.....of the light weight which bakers in that CITY give to bread, and speaks significantly.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, July 18, 1878 896 k And here's "I'm from Missouri" before 1898. It appears to be the same story that I found in the WASHINGTON POST and then earlier in the PHILADELPHIA TIMES: Mountain Democrat - 7/17/1897 ...I) offer Juujprd For His Life. "I'M FROM MISSOURI, and they'll have to show That is.....was to jump, and so I jumped. I'M FROM MISSOURI and you'll have to show mo I" THE.....music, culture or anything different FROM the detestable surroundings FROM which I.. Placerville, California Saturday, July 17, 1897 559 k Here's the earliest "tuna casserole": Soda Springs Sun - 11/2/1934 ...Weekly Scrapbook WEEK'S BEST RECIPE: TUNA CASSEROLE: 1 can TUNA fish, 1 can condensed.....Vz Inch thick In bottom. Add a half of the TUNA in a layer then cover wtth a half of can.....soup, 1 can peas potato chips. Orease CASSEROLE and put a layer of.....with another serving of potato chips, TUNA, soup and peas. top with chips and bake.. Soda Springs, Idaho Friday, November 02, 1934 494 k Here's "jazz." The NEW YORK TIMES cites are in error, but the 1913 citation is interesting, There are also 1916 citations for "jazz" music: New York Times - 4/23/1859 ...few chillon from 6 14 }eats of age can For JAZZ, inquire of 5. Petenon s Store, No. a.. New York, New York Saturday, April 23, 1859 940 k New York Daily Times - 12/22/1852 ...a very supermr of ROY CLOTHING. oulhht of JAZZ 1133. j.mned, an partner. (l (lteolthe.. New York, New York Wednesday, December 22, 1852 832 k New York Times - 2/27/1858 ...by he Ihe people of their when they pieced. JAZZ, of the bill. It days, but yet no had.. New York, New York Saturday, February 27, 1858 814 k Berkshire County Eagle - 3/8/1860 ...and at the Tim ofJdm A. Walker, A. Mardock, JAZZ V. and John E. Merrill. rim town the I.. Pittsfield, Massachusetts Thursday, March 08, 1860 1015 k New York Times - 8/1/1859 ...the rumor ar.d found that it was a caie JAZZ Jl. Is the wDh an a I01 a houLe at the.. New York, New York Monday, August 01, 1859 804 k New York Times - 1/16/1860 ...ii3 lltd aria v montu. Mary W..Cnry, 8. JAZZ. wife or Beman, formerly of Friday, of.. New York, New York Monday, January 16, 1860 832 k New York Times - 6/18/1859 ...is be by with by the Nicaragua Con. stabs b JAZZ to have BatMan called In October, to.. New York, New York Saturday, June 18, 1859 790 k New York Daily Times - 9/25/1852 ...34 d.. 134 J T ]uP F hound Yurh look B Ir.m JAZZ and Io %m it 33ds sod 254 to J Hr..e: (t.. New York, New York Saturday, September 25, 1852 778 k New York Daily Times - 5/17/1855 ...by the miners of lediaaa for killing J. Me JAZZ% found and ou the 31at orlast month. The.. New York, New York Thursday, May 17, 1855 911 k Fort Wayne Weekly Sentinel - 6/4/1913 ...Francisco the most popular word is 'the old JAZZ.' It means anything you may happen to.. Fort Wayne, Indiana Wednesday, June 04, 1913 705 k Here's "Grant took Richmond": Massillon Independent - 9/8/1898 ...and confidence without stint. GRANT TOOK RICHMOND, captured Lee's army two cried.....the new forage the Florida velvet HOW GRANT MET LINCOLN. Attending the Klrnt ml.....melon jou mus' know what you to at Aa' TOOK out bow de knife IB gwine in; Pat one.....replied that the country wanted him to take RICHMOND .and asked if he cculd do it, to wh.. Massillon, Ohio Thursday, September 08, 1898 725 k Washington Post - 4/30/1916 ...It'a JHappy. f; W She'll TakpHim Ijke GRANT TOOK RICHMOND, Yea Bo amp; M He Had a I4ttle.....The committee believes this method will GRANT every golfer sit the clulb an op.....J a Hot Meal fe f Once a J V Month. Fulton TOOK Nap While Walling for Reich Boul Latter.. Washington, District Of Columbia Sunday, April 30, 1916 776 k Reno Evening Gazette - 6/26/1916 ...that it has not been in since GRANT TOOK RICHMOND Reno, All the Way As to -the.....got off to a bad start when Jerry's bunch TOOK three runs, in the opening inning. It.. Reno, Nevada Monday, June 26, 1916 939 k A few years ago, Allan Metcalf asked me to be 1871 for "Groundhog Day." The Bill Murray movie GROUNDHOG DAY is showing in town this weekend. Here are the antedatings: Portsmouth Times - 2/5/1870 ...always reliable. LAST WednesDAY was "GROUND HOG" DAY. The animal saw his shadow and.....and contains three and one-half acres of GROUND. The idea of establishing a City.....week from next MonDAY is St. VaJeutine's DAY. __ THE weather, for the past few DAYs.....Eagle says Henry Smoot sold a cow the other DAY for 8500. She was a Durham. The purchaser.. Portsmouth, Ohio Saturday, February 05, 1870 832 k Indiana Progress - 2/4/1870 ...column. WEDNESDAY the inst., was GROUND HOG DAY, to ar, old saying, the GROUND HOG.....Encampment, was next gone into. It to llio GROUND, a distance of about eigh teen feet.....comes out of his hole this DAY, and if ho sees his shadow, goes back for.....to issue the "I'KOOiucss'' at an earlier DAY in the week, so that all its subscribers.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Friday, February 04, 1870 914 k Herald And Torch Light - 2/12/1868 ...is known throughout the country as GROUND HOG DAY. On that DAY the GROUND HOG leaves.....of its kind that we have tasted for many a DAY. Gunnin lloii DAY. SunDAY, the 2nd.....with a sufficiency of snow to cover the GROUND, and to afford pretty good sleighing.....The One-half of 35 Acres of Wheat, in the GROUND, aud much othar property not to name.. Hagerstown, Maryland Wednesday, February 12, 1868 1120 k Finally, "OK" is the usual mess, but see the BANGOR DAILY WHIG AND COURIER: Bangor Daily Whig And Courier - 1/22/1838 ...OK -i IS.l1 i of iituafion, buundirien, face.....bv just V No. 3 Blue FKKOERICK LAMBERT._ OK jau PKW iu fomrov.. Bangor, Maine Monday, January 22, 1838 551 k Huron Reflector - 4/24/1838 ...JOHN WAKKVAN and 1 WALTER MAHLON K. TAYI.OK, I J llnsJAMiv TAYT.OK. Sale of" REAL.. Norwalk, Ohio Tuesday, April 24, 1838 731 k Bangor Daily Whig And Courier - 1/8/1839 ...Iphrfns, OftrtiLrore. GflTf'c usliiu.iso'OK, Swiss a'tid Mull Cambric sWushn, i.....r fbp'e, T. r Cherry Hrrif, E. -fa i'ito OK Machia8r J.AT. W. Allan, T. Farnsworth.. Bangor, Maine Tuesday, January 08, 1839 697 k Alton Telegraph - 12/14/1839 ...by tW iiiertMsiii" dfinanU fur IIHK CAUSF OK BILIOUS COMPLAINTS AND A OK Ct A wei.....aud i.< iitincn's aud KrFrnt fir li ..OK-, wmpltle. with Bridles and ipritW Schoel.....verj superior. fiipgO] G. VAN IVORY SETS OK KNIVES FOI.KS, con l-l.-ir; some rery fine.. Alton, Illinois Saturday, December 14, 1839 645 k Republican Compiler - 1/8/1839 ...an. u M., THE PROPERTY situated on the 1 OK> NOVEMBER Michael IIuiFujau. Monies IE It.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Tuesday, January 08, 1839 711 k Bangor Daily Whig And Courier - 10/15/1840 ...iOO Mush Wheat. Shorts a substitute for Pwv OK PSALMODY; by the Uoslivn Handel ender. now.....clear Pvik, not born re1 i" JU -4-W i 10 >0 OK PSALMODY; by the IJosliwi Handel ender.. Bangor, Maine Thursday, October 15, 1840 562 k Bangor Daily Whig And Courier - 5/2/1838 ...30 to 30 gallons Wall W.-F-. ottTHE AII r OK SWIFT WRITING' ftlre any thing eTeCTed, we.....jrc inviieil lo cofl at Nn. 30 Main street. OK URY GOODS OEKU iH4.TUI.1 wiH IIHVP ihbir.. Bangor, Maine Wednesday, May 02, 1838 563 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 25 13:20:22 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 08:20:22 EST Subject: Shysters (1848) Message-ID: "Thumnail" I just typed? I'm all thumbs. I had meant to say "epigram." A day pass is $4.95. You can get five newspapers for free, but don't do that--it's just five newspapers. I must remind all to keep this information away from Sam Clements, or I'm done for. You have to type "shyster" and "shysters," it appears. This is the earliest: Dixon Evening Telegraph - 2/23/1848 ...every gangof moral terrorists, bigots and SHYSTERS in the country political, religious.. Dixon, Illinois Wednesday, February 23, 1848 917 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 25 15:10:22 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 10:10:22 EST Subject: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) Message-ID: This is a great article, so I'll type the whole thing. Again, you can read it for $4.95 on www.newspaperarchive.com. Click on the new search, and then "advanced search." 4 June 1913, FORT WAYNE SENTINEL, pg. 8?, col. 5: _GOES BACK HOME_ _WITH NEW SLANG_ _"Hod Dickety-Dog" is a_ _New One That Comes_ _from Indiana._ _IS MAKING A BIG HIT_ (Boxed--ed.) _"BEST SELLERS" IN CITY SLANG_ Indianapolis--"Hod dickety dog!" Boston--"I should worry." San Francisco--"Are you jerry to the old jazz?" Denver--"It's mush to me." St. Louis--"Gazipe!" New Orleans--"Make a little dodo!" (End of box--ed.) Milroy, Ind., June 4--George Stoner came back from his week's visit to Indianapolis with some new bits of slang, which already have swept Rush and Shelby counties and are the most popular things known here since "The Banks of the Wabash" first saw the light. "I suppose those city fellows kidded the life out of you, hey, George?" asked Henry Talliff, who met Stoner at the interurban station. "Hod dickety dog," said Stoner. "What's that?" asked Tolliff. "Didn't they get any change out of you?" "Didn't you hear me say 'hod dickety dog?" asked the traveler. "What's the matter with you rubes, anyway. Everybody who is anybody knows that that means I'm jerry; I'm hep; I connect. (Column six--ed.) When you try to kid a fellow and he says 'hod dickety dog!' that means that the bunk bounces off of him. Are you next?" "I get you," said Tolliff thoughtfully. "Lemme tell you something here: "Hod dickety dog will be all the rage in New York before winter. All good slang, like everything else, comes from Indiana, and travels east, and this is going fast. 'Round the Stanton House there in Indianapolis there was a bunch of traveling men and they gave me a line on the correct slang in various parts of the country; it's different in different cities. F'rinstance, 'I should worry' has the call in almost every city. It's especially popular in Boston, and in New York they don't know anything else. It isn't very old. It's a Jewish expression and was born about the same time as Talmud. A fellow who sells bunion (?--ed.) plasters for a Denver house was telling me that out his way, if a person doesn't care about the subject under discussion he says, "It's mush to me." "Now, out in San Francisco the most popular word is 'the old jazz.' It means anything you may happen to want it to. There was a St. Louis man there who thought that he was real cute. He was trying to kid me, and just to show him I was wise I said 'Hod dickety-dog.' 'I see you're there with the gazipe,' he says. 'Get it?" "Hod dickety-dog," said Tolliff nodding. "Down in New Orleans they say 'I think I'll take a little dodo,' meaning they're going to hunt the hay or go to sleep. I got a lot more that I'll tell you some other time." "Getting into any gambling houses, George?" asked his friend. Stoner winked. "Lose much?" "Me? Hod dickety-dog." (I'd found "hot diggety" in 1906...There is no page number, and the pages appear out of sequence. For example, page one didn't turn out to be the first page...The year is totally illegible. However, there is a story on another page about the death of "Chuck Connors," a friend of Steve Brodie's on the Bowery. Connors died 10 May 1913 --ed.) From douglas at NB.NET Thu Dec 25 18:04:49 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 13:04:49 -0500 Subject: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) In-Reply-To: <148.1f61e734.2d1c57de@aol.com> Message-ID: > 4 June 1913, FORT WAYNE SENTINEL, pg. 8?, col. 5: At a glance, this appears to me to be probably page 10. >... New Orleans--"Make a little dodo!" This is just conventional French (babytalk) for "sleep" as in "faire dodo" [Cf. adopted English "fais-dodo"], "aller au dodo". >... "Didn't you hear me say 'hod dickety dog?" asked the traveler. "What's >the matter with you rubes, anyway. Everybody who is anybody knows that that >means I'm jerry; I'm hep; I connect. >(Column six--ed.) >When you try to kid a fellow and he says 'hod dickety dog!' that means that >the bunk bounces off of him. Are you next?" > "I get you," said Tolliff thoughtfully. Synonyms: "hep"; "wise"; "next"; "jerry". Whence "jerry"? Could it be "chary" [= "alert"]? -- Doug Wilson From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Dec 25 18:17:23 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 13:17:23 -0500 Subject: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) Message-ID: Actually, you can read it on Ancestry.com, also. You just have to beg and plead with that $!!@&*** search engine. I'm still not sure that it would recognize two words from the article. I'm convinced there is a pre-1913 cite for jazz lurking in Ancestry. The search engine and the quality of the microfilm copies are just so frippin' bad. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2003 10:10 AM Subject: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) > This is a great article, so I'll type the whole thing. Again, you can > read it for $4.95 on www.newspaperarchive.com. Click on the new search, and then > "advanced search." > > > 4 June 1913, FORT WAYNE SENTINEL, pg. 8?, col. 5: > From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Dec 25 19:47:44 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 13:47:44 -0600 Subject: "jerry" (aware); was: Re: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Douglas G. Wilson Sent: Thu 12/25/2003 12:04 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) Synonyms: "hep"; "wise"; "next"; "jerry". Whence "jerry"? Could it be "chary" [= "alert"]? ****** I treated this item in my article "Jerry in Slang: 'A Watch'; Aware'"; in : Gerald Leonard Cohen, _Studies in Slang_, part V, (Frankfurt a. M: Peter Lang), 1997, pp. 143-146. The gist of the answer is that we start with "Jerry-come-tumble" (= a tumbler), which by a word-play on cant "tumble" (to understand) and shortening to just "jerry" becomes "jerry" (aware). Partridge's 1968 _Dictionary of the Underworld_ comes as close as possible to the answer without actually getting it, by suggesting that "jerry" (aware) might have come from "jerrycummumble." Partridge should have selected "Jerry-come-tumble." A look at OED shows: "Jerry-come-tumble," "Jerry-go-nimble" (a tumbler, an antic, a performer (equestrian or other)) and "Jerrycummumble,"" Jerrymumble" (to shake or tumble about). As for the origin of "Jerry-come-tumble," the first quote in OED indicates that the tumbling was the fall in a hanging: 1823 SCOTT. _Quentin D. xiv, "I [A hangman] never quarrel with my customers--my jerry-come-tumbles, my merry dancers." Gerald Cohen From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Dec 25 20:21:44 2003 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 15:21:44 EST Subject: "Y'all" in Friday's New York Times Message-ID: In a message dated 11/29/03 12:00:48 PM, flanigan at OHIO.EDU writes: << and it was clear he didn't know what Guy Bailey was talking about when he said "'you' was originally plural, you know" (or words to that effect). >> Most of us believe that Y'ALL still *IS* plural. Guy Bailey may have heard pseudo-y'all from displaced crypto-Yankees, but that don't make it rahht. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Dec 25 20:45:30 2003 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 15:45:30 -0500 Subject: Five Fingered Salute In-Reply-To: <200312240504.hBO54kk8025827@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Michael Quinion wrote in response to an unattributed quote from upthread: > In conjunction with Bronx cheer, I think the "five fingered salute" is > probably open palm toward the person to be disrespected, thumb to nose, > fingers spread and waving, tongue out. That's the sense in which I have encountered it. We Brits would more commonly call it "cocking a snook" at somebody. In my piece on the latter phrase, at , I describe "five fingered salute" as an American expression. In view of comments on this list that suggest it isn't known, might that be incorrect? <<< I think of this as "thumbing one's nose", which OED Online confirms as "orig. U.S." and synonymous with "cocking a snook" (s.v. nose, n., 8b). -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 26 01:13:07 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 20:13:07 EST Subject: "Cosmopolitan" cocktail (1996) Message-ID: Sarah Jessica Parker showed up at my door to wish me a merry Christmas, remind me to watch the last eight episodes of SEX AND THE CITY, and ask about the origin of the "Cosmopolitan." She's a great gal, but my wife Jennifer Lopez insisted that Sarah get out of that red and green Christmas number and put on some clothes. I'll search the databases for "Cosmopolitan" this weekend, but Google Groups has nothing before 1996. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: ?????? ... crushed ice -----Cosmopolitan: ....?,??? 3/4 oz. vodka 1/2 oz. triple sec 1 oz. cranberry juice 1/2 oz. lime juice ?,???? ... tw.bbs.rec.wine - May 12, 1996 by ?? ?? ??? (...) --------Cosmopolitan: .......?,??? 3/4 oz. vodka 1/2 oz. triple sec 1 oz. cranberry juice 1/2 oz. lime juice (GOOGLE) http://www.thefoodmaven.com/diary/archives/00000024.html The Cosmopolitan was the drink of the summer several years ago. It seemed to come along so suddenly and so nationally that I thought it must have been invented by the Absolut vodka people to promote their product, Absolut Citron, the seemingly essential ingredient that had recently been introduced. Now I learn from Gary Regan, author of ?The Bartender?s Bible? and ?New Classic Cocktails? that its origins are a mystery. Legend has it that a bartender named Cheryl Cook created it in Miami, but Cheryl Cook has never come forward to claim it or been located, even through Internet searches. The Cosmopolitan is vodka, Cointreau (an orange liqueur), cranberry juice, and lime juice, served in a martini glass. You might say the Metropolitan is the sequel to the Cosmopolitan. It substitutes Absolut Kurant for the Citron, and is also served in a martini glass. At least that is how most bartenders make it. It has evolved into that. The original recipe was somewhat different, however. It was created by Chuck Coggins at a downtown New York haunt called Marion?s, that had had it?s heyday in the 1950s, then was reopened in 1990. It still thrives as a retro martini lounge and funky neighborhood hangout. The way Chuck tells it, in Gary Regan?s ?New Classic Cocktails,? Absolut Kurant had just been introduced and ?he added some extra ingredients.? These include Rose?s lime juice (which is sweetened), fresh lime juice, cranberry juice, and a lime wedge, but no Cointreau. (GOOGLE) http://www.tonidunlap.com/cosmopolitan.htm If any one drink can be credited for the resurgence of the cocktail in recent years, it the Cosmopolitan, which appeared in bars across the country in the mid-1990s. No one seems to know who created it, and there has been much debate as to whether it first appeared in San Francisco or New York. But no matter who first put these ingredients together, there's no doubt this is the most popular new drink to come along since the martini. (GOOGLE) http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m3188/4_85/73040966/p1/article.jhtml Classic Cosmopolitans.(cocktails)(Brief Article) Restaurants Hospitality, April, 2001, by Robert Plotkin Sex in the City has only confirmed what veteran lounge lizards already know, that when it comes to cocktails the one to be seen with is the Cosmopolitan. The drink has come of age, and while the Martini still grabs a lot of attention, the Cosmo is the drink in the know. Here's our take on why it's a high lottery pick, a bona fide franchise player. Let's first set the record straight. The Cosmopolitan is not, nor has it ever been, a variation of the Martini. The Martini is a cocktail made with a base of gin or vodka, which in turn is modified by an aperitif or liqueur, and then presented with what has now become a wide array of garnishes.On the other hand, the Cosmopolitan is a derivative of the Gimlet, a classic cocktail that originated in Colonial India. The Gimlet is prepared with either gin or vodka, a portion of Rose's lime juice, and is strained into a properly chilled cocktail glass accompanied by a generous wedge of fresh lime.In the 1980s the Gimlet morphed into the Kamikaze, the ultra popular cocktail made with vodka, Rose's lime juice, and a shot of Cointreau. Even now in its third decade, an icy Kamikaze in classy stemware is a "can't miss" proposition. This brings us to the early 1990s and the origin of the Cosmopolitan. Using the Kamikaze as the creative blueprint, the Cosmopolitan is constructed with citrus-infused Absolut Citron vodka, Cointreau, Rose's lime juice, and a healthy splash of cranberry juice. It's then stirred, strained into the coldest, most elegant cocktail glass handy, and presented with a wedge of fresh lime.In (GOOGLE) http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/2001/07/25/FFXQRVPZJPC.html Bar manager Staris Latkas has developed a martini exclusively for Melburnians - the Melbapolitan, which has proven popular in Bar Deco. But he says the most popular martinis remain the oldtime favorites such as the Metropolitan, and, thanks to Sex and the City, the Cosmopolitan. Busteed is amazed by the Cosmopolitan's popularity. ``Everyone wants to be Sarah Jessica Parker and talk about sleeping with men, or women,'' he says. Jarrod Temple, a barman at the funky Khokolat in Melbourne, says the ``nice and sweet'' Cosmopolitans have been moving ``by the truckload'' since the weekly program made it the drink du jour. The Gin Palace in Little Collins Street has long sold a lot of Cosmopolitans but bar manager Ben Wild says vodka drinks are always popular - vodka and lime, vodka and cranberry, vodka and just about anything. Wild says the popularity of drinks like the Cosmopolitan is all part of the international trend away from the ``pretty'' to the oldfashioned cocktails. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 26 03:02:59 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 22:02:59 EST Subject: TANSTAAFL (1949) Message-ID: A happy combination of food, science fiction, and economics. Fred Shapiro posted this in 2001: TANSTAAFL was Robert Heinlein's slogan in his 1966 book, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. It became popular in science-fiction fan circles. However, TINSTAAFL is documented in 1952 in a reference suggesting it may have been around for a while before that. Fred Shapiro The Ancestry search engine takes you to thousands of "free lunch" hits, but Newspaperarchive.com (the new search engine, at least) is easier to use and takes you right to it. 3 October 1949, THE BRADFORD ERA (Bradford, PA), pg. 6, col. 4: _These Days_ _"Tanstaafl" Contains Masterly Plan of Author_ Pierre Dos Utt is a learned man whose name appears in no "Who's Who" and whose scholarly works are listed in no bbibliographies. In fact, Pierre Dos Utt is a planner who has devoted himself in the remaking of society and he is not the first who tried it. The blessing is that most planners only talk or write about it and get lost in a maze of words, although Karl Marx has become the ikon og myriads of the breed whp quarrel so violently that the hope of society is that they may devour each other. At any rate, Pierre Dos Utt has at long last produced a book which contains his masterly plan. he calls it "Yanstaffl." The author says that it is from the Babylonian, but philologists will insist that it is sanskrit, corrupted by Low German. It might even be a jargon fouled up byu Lower Slobbovian, than which nothing is lower as everybody knows. However, it has meaning which I shall secretly give you at the end of this monograph on Tanstaafl which I write with the approval of ASGS, which is whatever you think it is and I hope you keep it clean. * * * * THE ORIGINAL "Tanstaafl" is p[ublished by Cairo {ublications which may or may not exist for any other purpose and which gives its address as 302 5th Street, S. E., Canton, Ohio. The S. E. is undoubtedly imitation of Washington, D. C., Dos Utt thereby paying his respects to the fountain of all knowledge, the seat of perfection, the apogee of conglomeration, even as Brahms did in his First to Beethoven's Ninth. Now, to get to the heart of the matter. Dos Utt finds the human race in a very sad state and has a solution for the problem, he following in a long line of solvers which includes Hammurabi, Wang Anshih, Akbar, Karl Marx and Henry Wallace, to say nothing of Aristotle, Plato, Henry George, and Leon (Col. 6--ed.) Keyserling. He states the problem succinctly: "And correlated with this inherent urge to gain at the expense of others is the deep-seated desire to show off our superioirity. For this reason, we buy flashy automobiles, elaborate houses, extravagant clothes and sparkling jewels. "As money is the medium through which we are able to reflect our affluence, it at once becomes the final goal of our objective. Hence money is the ultimate symbol of our inherent disposition to kill." Now, if you understand that, you can understand anything and ought to reach the preoper conclusion which is to drop dead, as Milton Berle would say in lingua Bronx, but Dos Utt puts it more cogently in the following forensic: **** "THE BASIC human urge to kill for self-aggrandisement is very strong and it is also very dangerous if it is not controlled. Our recommendation is to stimulate personal ambition, but to have it strictly regulated by a Supreme State authority. Then the pattern of human advancement can be evenly regulated for the benefit of all the deserving." (Col. 7--ed.) The volume is amply supplied with charts and graphs but omits photographs as beneath scientific contempt. Also photographic exactitude defies the artistic skill of the chart drawer who divines what figures mean by making them obscure. It is thus ruled by the Society of Statistical Arts. It also is adequately statistical and footnoted and proves its point by algebra but omits astrophysics. However, I should fail my readers were I not to point to one essential lapse in this otherwise colossal labor. On page 18, Dos Utt provides a chart to prove that horses, cattle, fowl and hogs have made great progress but that man has stood still. He has not, most surprisingly, noted that a wingless fowl has been produced thus increasing the breast of this biped. This omission is serious because of its implications, for were we, by our higher intelligence, to produce an armless man, we should forever save the human race from kleptomania which is a short term for such creatures as pick-pockets, tac-collectors and subsidy hunters. Now, our secret: Tanstaaffl (sic) is mnemonic for "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch." No author is given. "These Days" was a syndicated column by George E. Sokolsky (1893-1962). The following is from a search for "Dos Utt": Approximately 5 Results Documents 1 - 5 for Search term(s) "dos utt" Search took 0.125 seconds. Independent Record - 10/4/1949 ...dates undobtedly two added Pierre DOS UTT is a learned man whose name appears in no.....in no bibliographies. In fact, Pierre DOS UTT is a planner who has devoted himself to.....devour each other. At any rate, Pierre DOS UTT has at long last produced a book which.....in ..Key to the CUy In ington, D. C.. DOS UTT thereby one scene he tears a telephone.. Helena, Montana Tuesday, October 04, 1949 817 k Waterloo Daily Courier - 10/2/1949 ...GibbeJrish By GEORGE E. SOKOLSKY Pierre DOS UTT is a learned man whose name appears in no.....in no bibliographies. In fact, Pierre DOS UTT is a planner who has devoted himself to.....lently that the hope of society but DOS UTT puts it more tnat inftv maw i j. that.....devour each other. At any rate, Fierre DOS UTT has at long: last produced a book which.. Waterloo, Iowa Sunday, October 02, 1949 831 k Bradford Era - 10/3/1949 ...was a bottle of insect lotion Pierre DOS UTT is a learned man Keyserling. He states.....I Attlee to unt11 lale j fact. Pierre DOS UTT is a planner j is the deep-seated desire.....otherwise colossal labor. On page 18, DOS UTT provides a chart to prove that horses.....wlll jnsjst tnat H is salient, j but DOS UTT puts it more cogently has sunk to a.. Bradford, Pennsylvania Monday, October 03, 1949 707 k Joplin Globe - 10/1/1949 ...SOLlvOLSKY. i to retired miners. Pierre DOS UTT is a learned man whose name appears in no.....devour each other. At any rate, Pierre DOS UTT has, at long last, produced a book which.. Joplin, Missouri Saturday, October 01, 1949 832 k Berkshire Evening Eagle - 1/24/1950 ...centered around a book by Dr. Pierre DOS UTT, who offers "a plan for new economic.....important corporation. The teachings of Dr. UTT point to the fact that man has produced.....We are reaching an age, according to Dr. "UTT, when this should happen State of.. Pittsfield, Massachusetts Tuesday, January 24, 1950 809 k From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 26 03:38:25 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 22:38:25 -0500 Subject: TANSTAAFL (1949) In-Reply-To: <1d9.1731b76b.2d1cfee3@aol.com> Message-ID: Barry, Can you try a search on Newspaperarchive.com for pre-1945 occurrences of "thing as a free lunch" (as in "there's no such thing as a free lunch" and similar phrases)? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 26 04:28:42 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:28:42 EST Subject: Sunset & Shirley Temple Cocktails (1950) Message-ID: The "Sunset" cocktail is somewhat like the "Comopolitan" in that...just a minute! ("Jen, Sarah Jessica has had too many and you should take her home!") Sorry--these New York City women go crazy on Christmas. The following appears to be of interest for both cocktails: 15 February 1950, WAUKESHA DAILY FREEMAN (Waukesha, WIsconsin), pg. 7, col. 1: _He Says Women Drink_ _Far More Than Men Do_ SAN FRANCISCO (UP)--Eastern men prefer Scotch whiskey, Westerners prefer bourbon--but women drink more than men and like anything alcoholic. That's the opinion of John H. Hensley, manager of the Hotel Mark Hopkins' famous Top of the Mark cocktail lounge. Hensley has been catering to people's tastes for potables for 20 years and feels (Col. 2--ed.) he knows a thing or two about drinking. (...) The so-called weaker sex also specializes in consuming, in great quantities, the fancier drinks, Hensley said. The "Sunset," a Mark special with vodka, lime juice and fresh strawberries, is a female favorite. "But the one they like best," Hensley said, "is the 'Saint Petersburg.'" The St. Pete, made in a large brandy snifter glass, is a wicked concoction of two shots of Grand Marnier, a liqueur which tastes a little like orange-flavored brandy, plus two shots of Napoleon brandy and the rest of the glass filled with champagne poured over cracked ice. _Few Basic Favorites_ Hensley estimated there are 5,000 possible alcoholic combinations. Top of the Mark sticks pretty much to 150 basic cocktails--although Hensley said the favorites with bar habitues everywhere are Martinis, Manhattans, whiskey sours and Tom Collins. One of the most popular drinks in the sky room bistro is non-alcoholic. Made of fresh fruits and juices and ginger ale especially for 'teen-agers who frequent the lounge, the Mark once called it the "Shirley Temple." After Miss Temple divorced her husband, John Agar, the hotel decided the name no longer was appropriate and that the movie star was a bit mature for the bobby-sox set. So the drink was changed to the "Shari Robinson," the name of another young Hollywood starlet. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 26 06:13:03 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 01:13:03 EST Subject: "Whole Ball of Wax" (1892); Salt Water Taffy (1893); Peanut Gallery (1876) Message-ID: Nah, there was nothing more for "lunch." It's strange that just that one "TANSAAFL" article came up on the first search, but the other syndicated articles appeared when I checked "Dos Utt." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- WHOLE BALL OF WAX 20 September 1892, GETTYSBURG COMPILER (Gettysburg, PA), pg. 1, col. 8: "That's what!" exclaimed the youth, heartily. "She's the best gal in our country, and I've had the pick an' choice of all of 'em. There isn't one of 'em that wouldn't marry me quicker her wink, but this is my choice of the whole ball of wax." 12 November 1911, INDIANAPOLIS STAR, pg. 16, col. 8: And the W. C. T. U. proposed to put the kibosh on the whole ball of wax. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- LIFE OF RILEY Nothing great here. Indianapolis Star - 10/8/1911 ...William M. Hersehell read a sketch on tlie LIFE OF RILEY. and Mrs. M. M. House sang :i.....skeicher. Hev talk dealt with the LIFE OF the Japanese, and she told OF the.....The program consisted OF readings from RILEY. and Mrs. Ernest M. Carter and Mrs.....Helen Hyde, the famous portrayer OF child, LIFE OF Japan. The Fortnightly Literary Club.. Indianapolis, Indiana Sunday, October 08, 1911 773 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SALT WATER TAFFY OED has 1894. Massachusetts has the "original Atlantic City" salt water taffy? 9 September 1893, DAILY NORTHWESTERN (Oshkosh, Wisconsin), pg. I took the whole crowd bathing in the morning, sailing and fishing in the afternoon, then merry-go-rounds, salt water taffy, tin-types, pier, switchback, creamy soda water, conches, and heaven only knows what. 22 December 1893, LOWELL DAILY SUN (Lowell, Massachusetts), pg. 3?, col. 7: WE ARE THE ORIGINATORS OF THE FAMOUS ATLANTIC CITY _Salt Water Taffy_ ALL OTHERS ARE SIMPLY IMITATORS. CARAMELS And Home Made Candies Strictly Pure and always Fresh. Made expressly for retail trade only. 42 CENTRAL STREET (No business name?--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- PEANUT GALLERY DARE also has 1876. The Augusta (GA) Archives didn't help. For any peanut person out there. 10 June 1876, MOUNTAIN DEMOCRAT (Placerville, California), pg. 2, col. 1: As a bid for applause from the political pit and peanut gallery it was a masterpiece. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 26 09:16:46 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 04:16:46 EST Subject: Jelly Beans (1894); Jezebel Sauce (1967); Chicken a la King (1906) Message-ID: JELLY BEANS I had posted to 1896. I think these cites were added somewhat recently. Notice that they're all out west. Approximately 378 Results Documents 1 - 10 for Search term(s) "jelly beans"+AND+range:1753-1894 Search took 0.703125 seconds. Helena Independent - 2/6/1894 ...STICKS FOR 1 FRESH CARAMELS, PCS POUND, JELLY BEANS, 2 POUNDS, FISH. WEHKVE THE.. Helena, Montana Tuesday, February 06, 1894 527 k Helena Independent - 1/13/1894 ...Crean Marshmallows, Ib. Mixed stick, Ib. JELLY BEANS, Ib...... Spa'iisn Poannts, Ib.. Helena, Montana Saturday, January 13, 1894 468 k (This appears to be the first citation, so I checked it out. You get page 4. However, the "Available Publication Pages" on top shows 1-14, with page 5 highlighted. "Jelly beans" is NOT on page 4. "Jelly beans" is across the margin, on another page. However, that other page is not page 5 and it's not page 3. I don't have the time right now to check out all fourteen pages--ed.) Helena Independent - 2/14/1894 ...DOZEN STICKS FOR FRESH CARAMELS, PER POUND, JELLY BEANS, 2 POUNDS, FISH. WEHAVE THE.. Helena, Montana Wednesday, February 14, 1894 518 k Helena Independent - 3/28/1894 ...POUND 76 STICKS OF CANDY FOR 2 POUNDS OF JELLY BEANS 2POUNDSOF MINT LOZENOES FINE.. Helena, Montana Wednesday, March 28, 1894 531 k Mountain Democrat - 6/23/1894 ...explorer, has returned to New York. Eating JELLY BEANS is the alleged cause of the death.. Placerville, California Saturday, June 23, 1894 749 k Helena Independent - 3/24/1894 ...POUND 76 STICKS OF CANDY FOR 2 POUNDS OF JELLY BEANS 2 POUNDS MINT LOZENOES 10 CEDE MS.. Helena, Montana Saturday, March 24, 1894 506 k Helena Independent - 2/10/1894 ...d to DOZEN STICKS FOR CARAMELS, PER POUND, JELLY BEANS, 2 POUNDS, FISH. THE LARGEST MENT.. Helena, Montana Saturday, February 10, 1894 520 k Helena Independent - 1/18/1894 ...Ib. 2oc French mixed candy, Ib. loc JELLY BEANS, Ib. loc To the economical smoker.. Helena, Montana Thursday, January 18, 1894 465 k Helena Independent - 2/8/1894 ...DOZEN STICKS FOR FRESH CARAMELS, PER POUND, JELLY BEANS, 2 POUNDS, FISH. WEHAVETHELAROEST.. Helena, Montana Thursday, February 08, 1894 527 k Helena Independent - 3/26/1894 ...Chlocne 75 STICKS OF CANDY FOR 2 POUNDS OF JELLY BEANS 2 POUNDS OF MINT LOZENOCS FINE.. Helena, Montana Monday, March 26, 1894 529 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- JEZEBEL SAUCE Patricia Bunning Stevens's RARE BITS (1998) has "Jezebel sauce" on page 157: "Even the good cooks of nineteenth-century America were not particularly noted for their sauces. The one fiery exception is Jezebel Sauce, long a favorite in the Old South." "Jezebel Sauce" is not in DARE. It's not in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK. The databases didn't turn up much. The AUGUSTA CHRONICLE (GA) didn't have even one hit. Newspaperarchive.com has just one hit: Gettysburg Times - 12/22/1967 ...It cioes not have to be cooked on the ham. JEZEBEL SAUCE 1 jar pineapple preserve.J. jar.....found an old Sou thorn recipe for i the SAUCE if you insist t> that's genuinely.....the and return u> nil'.' time while The SAUCE can be prepared anytime and.....this dinner. Or, if you prefer, cranberry' SAUCE. This can be bought in the jelly or.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Friday, December 22, 1967 593 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CHICKEN A LA KING See the "William King" obituary in the ADS-L archives. These are slightly earlier cites for the dish. The new Newspaperarchive.com search makes things easier. Caution: do not put Jezebel Sauce on your Chicken a la King. Massillon Independent - 12/24/1906 ...lome At Pompl on LAkes, N. J. CHICKEN A LA KING. Recipe From One of Sew York's.....And. Allow it to, cook A minute. CHICKEN A. lA KING is. usuAlly served in A chAfing dish.....of the big populAr [hotels of New York 5s CHICKEN A lA -kiug. The -recipe, As given by.....smAll pieces the white meAt of A cold roA st CHICKEN. MAke A sAuce with two tAblespooffuls.. Massillon, Ohio Monday, December 24, 1906 866 k Pg. 2?, col. 3: _CHICKEN A LA KING._ _Recipe From One of New York's Big Popular Hotels._ A favorite dish served in one of the big popular hotels of New York is chicken a la king. The recipe, as given by the chef of the fashionable establishment, is as follows: Cut into small pieces the white meat of a cold roast chicken. Make a sauce with two tablespoonfuls of butter in a saucepan over the fire. When the butter melts stir in two heaping tablespoonfuls of flour which has been well sifted. When the flour and butter are mixed to a cream pour in slowly a pint of hot milk, stirring constantly to keep from lumping. Allow the sauce to boil up once, then add a teaspoonful of grated onion, a teaspoonful of salt and the yolks of two eggs. Stir them briskly through the sauce, add two truffles and two mushrooms cut in small pieces and fried lightly in butter, one sweet green pepper cut in shreds after seeds have been removed and a generous tablespoonful of capers chopped and just a suggestion of grated nutmeg. Last of all, add the chicken, stir all together and allow it to cook a minute. Chicken a la king is usually served in a chafing dish--New York Post. Atlanta Constitution - 6/17/1910 ...Onions MAitre Hotel PotAtoes CHICKEN A lA KING on ToAst RoAst Prime Ribs of Beef An.....New Corn on Cob I New English PeAs SAlAd A lA WilliAms New PeAch Pie A lA Mode VAnillA.....fAre for the round limit Most vermont route lA viA CincinnAti ROUTEN to ClevelAnd LAke.....on or TrAveling PAumier Poor nAntel lA Pryor Streett AtlAntA GRADY HOSPITAL.. Atlanta, Georgia Friday, June 17, 1910 371 k Iowa Recorder - 12/21/1910 ...hAve A very decent wAy of fixing CHICKEN A lA KING. Hotchkiss hAd dsjpsrted.....tne I replied, in the sAme wAy. When the CHICKEN cAme, I still found myself gAzing now.....m A In blue. The trAin wrecked. BlAkeley lA rescued from the burningcAr by the girl In.....CArpenter, Ogden, S. C. Ill-MAnnered CHICKEN. Little Robert, 3 yeArs of Age, went.. Greene, Iowa Wednesday, December 21, 1910 735 k Atlanta Constitution - 2/13/1910 ...A lA Angling for A plAce in your CHICKEN A lA KING I But fit for A Queets Absinthe To.....the meeting will be A tAlk by Hicks on It lA A subject which A ppeAls to the womAn of.....on TuesdAy And FebruAry IS And in tim first lA Invited to come And luke their There will.....on business lAst Bliss Rosebud Gillie of lA the guest of In Mr And JAmes who hAve.. Atlanta, Georgia Sunday, February 13, 1910 509 k Evening Telegram - 5/20/1909 ...we let him if I'll hAve some CHICKEN-A-lA KING. he sAid. All out of A nswered the.....HENRIETTA Mr. r.r.d Mrs. were :TI ElyiiA lA.-t ThursdAy shopping. Bom, to .Mr. And Mrs.....nowAdAys music wltfe meAls. Absolutely, lA order to get servAnts to stAy. hAd to pAt.. Elyria, Ohio Thursday, May 20, 1909 750 k (This appears to be 1919, not 1909--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CLUB SANDWICH Just a re-check, for anyone interested in "sandwiches." Trenton Evening Times - 4/26/1897 ...refreshments could not be served with CLUB SANDWICHES. It seems that the board of.....sincerest thanks to th Fin, For add Feather CLUB, who har gent quite a number of birds.....the. custom of selling. drinks with SANDWICHES ane this was done en Saturday. "We.. Trenton, New Jersey Monday, April 26, 1897 834 k Indiana Progress - 6/17/1886 ...3, between the Magentas and some foreign CLUB. SANDWICHES and coffee can lie had next.....there was left in it. The Magenta base ball CLUB should organize at once und proceed to.....three gallons at a milking. Our lawn-tennis CLUB is anxious to try their skill against.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, June 17, 1886 849 k From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 26 16:14:17 2003 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 11:14:17 -0500 Subject: Gets Late Early; Reggie=Registration; beta.newspaperarchive.com In-Reply-To: <200312260501.hBQ51Ik8007007@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: As always, I marvel at Barry's industriousness [can't use the simpler "industry", can we?], but a lot of his quotes from the beta Newspaper Archive were mangled more than somewhat; e.g., these excerpts from two of them: Decatur Daily Republican - 8/24/1880 ... to tbe deeUlon of the Democratic convention CITY DEPARTMENT. OHCAP 169 pieces American..... 10-dtf Tut funeral of the late J nines... Fort Wayne Daily Gazette - 7/22/1881 ...JS dtimaaUu 5 Thrse S .Persons leaving the CITY during the 9-tmrnef months can have the.... Barry, are your fingers getting THIS tangled, or were you stuck with a keyboard that had played host to a convention of cockroaches feasting on coffee spills and donut crumbs, or were you pasting copies of text OCR-ed from age-worn newspapers printed in irregular type from old fonts? -- Mark A. Mandel From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 26 16:17:56 2003 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 11:17:56 -0500 Subject: "jerry" in ADS-L Digest In-Reply-To: <200312260501.hBQ51Ik8007007@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: To quote Gerald Cohen from ADS-L Digest - 24 Dec 2003 to 25 Dec 2003 (#2003-359): Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 13:47:44 -0600 From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" Subject: "jerry" (aware); was: Re: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) LS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0gDQpGcm9tOiBBbWVyaWNhbiBEaWFsZWN0IFNvY2ll dHkgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIERvdWdsYXMgRy4gV2lsc29uIA0KU2VudDogVGh1IDEyLzI1LzIwMDMg ... and so on. Did this encryption appear just in the digest, or did it also happen in the individual post? And what did he *say*? -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Dec 26 16:36:33 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:36:33 -0600 Subject: "jerry" in ADS-L Digest--(third try) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark, A few moments ago I sent a message to ads-l in reply to your message below, but it's not turning up on my machine. Maybe the machine thinks the duplication of my message is somehow spam. Anyway, here's a third try now; this time I'll print the item as a quotation and maybe it will go through. Best. -- Gerald From Mark Mandel: >To quote Gerald Cohen from ADS-L Digest - 24 Dec 2003 to 25 Dec 2003 >(#2003-359): > >Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 13:47:44 -0600 >From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" >Subject: "jerry" (aware); was: Re: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) > >LS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0gDQpGcm9tOiBBbWVyaWNhbiBEaWFsZWN0IFNvY2ll >dHkgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIERvdWdsYXMgRy4gV2lsc29uIA0KU2VudDogVGh1IDEyLzI1LzIwMDMg > >... and so on. Did this encryption appear just in the digest, or did it >also happen in the individual post? And what did he *say*? > >-- Mark A. Mandel > Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania At 10:24 AM -0600 12/26/03, Gerald Cohen wrote: >Here's a second try (sent directly from my Macintosh; evidently when >I send messages via my wife's on-cable Gateway computer, some >recipients receive them in garbled form.) > >Gerald Cohen > > >Thread-Topic: Re: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) >Thread-Index: AcPLEaAT3Ra0EI07RUmDSiVdvK2xJAADGqMF >Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 13:47:44 -0600 >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >Sender: American Dialect Society >From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" >Subject: "jerry" (aware); was: Re: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Douglas G. Wilson >Sent: Thu 12/25/2003 12:04 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) > >Synonyms: "hep"; "wise"; "next"; "jerry". > >Whence "jerry"? Could it be "chary" [= "alert"]? > >****** > >I treated this item in my article "Jerry in Slang: 'A Watch'; >Aware'"; in : Gerald Leonard Cohen, _Studies in Slang_, part V, >(Frankfurt a. M: Peter Lang), 1997, pp. 143-146. The gist of the >answer is that we start with "Jerry-come-tumble" (= a tumbler), >which by a word-play on cant "tumble" (to understand) and shortening >to just "jerry" becomes "jerry" (aware). > > Partridge's 1968 _Dictionary of the Underworld_ comes as close >as possible to the answer without actually getting it, by suggesting >that "jerry" (aware) might have come from "jerrycummumble." >Partridge should have selected "Jerry-come-tumble." > > A look at OED shows: "Jerry-come-tumble," "Jerry-go-nimble" (a >tumbler, an antic, a performer (equestrian or other)) and >"Jerrycummumble,"" Jerrymumble" (to shake or tumble about). > > As for the origin of "Jerry-come-tumble," the first quote in >OED indicates that the tumbling was the fall in a hanging: 1823 >SCOTT. _Quentin D. xiv, "I [A hangman] never quarrel with my >customers--my jerry-come-tumbles, my merry dancers." > >Gerald Cohen From dsgood at VISI.COM Fri Dec 26 16:44:24 2003 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:44:24 -0600 Subject: "jerry" in ADS-L Digest In-Reply-To: <20031226161800.AE8FA588E@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Mark A. Mandel wrote: > To quote Gerald Cohen from ADS-L Digest - 24 Dec 2003 to 25 Dec 2003 > (#2003-359): > > Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 13:47:44 -0600 > From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: "jerry" (aware); was: Re: "Jerry to the old jazz" (June 1913) > > LS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0gDQpGcm9tOiBBbWVyaWNhbiBEaWFsZWN0IFNvY2ll > dHkgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIERvdWdsYXMgRy4gV2lsc29uIA0KU2VudDogVGh1IDEyLzI1LzIwMDMg > > ... and so on. Did this encryption appear just in the digest, or did it > also happen in the individual post? It was also in the individual post. And what did he *say*? > > -- Mark A. Mandel > Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania > > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 26 18:27:56 2003 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:27:56 -0800 Subject: plurals as first elements of compounds Message-ID: there's a fair amount of literature on english N+N compounds in which the first element is plural ("abstracts committee"). today's New York Times (section D, "Escapes") has one article just packed with examples: "Finding New Life By Selling the Old" by Anne Glusker, about towns that have become centers for the sale of antiques; it starts on p. D1 and continues on p. D3 (with two sidebar stories). although it does cite one shop with "antique" as the first element in its name -- the Antique Depot in Elliccott City, Md. -- *all* the other occurrences of relevant compounds have "antiques" instead (perhaps to avoid a potential ambiguity involving the adjective "antique" 'old'). plenty of occurrences of "antiques store(s)" and "antiques shop(s)", plus "antiques towns" "antiques emporiums" "antiques buyers" "antiques center" "antiques dealers" "antiques haven" and even "antiques success story". remarkably consistent. i'd find "antique" possible in all of these, maybe even preferable in some. and i note that the local phone book has listings for shops called "Antique Arcade" "Antique Emporium" "Antique Market" "Antique Trove" and none for a shop with a N+N compound name with "Antiques" as the first element. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Dec 26 20:44:04 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 15:44:04 -0500 Subject: pail of tears Message-ID: No, that's not "vale of tears." In the NY Times last week, I saw another gem: Someone wrote an article that mentioned someone crying "a pail of tears." (Sorry, I always seem to recycle my newspapers before I remember to clip for ADS referencing.) Now, if the writer is a Northerner, I suppose the phrase makes sense, but I'm a Northerner too and I've never ever heard the common idiom phrased in this way. Has anyone else? And would this imply that one would also say "she cried a pailfull" or "his tears came down in pails"? "I'm going to cry me a river" is another matter, of course. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Dec 26 20:35:42 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 15:35:42 -0500 Subject: "Y'all" in Friday's New York Times In-Reply-To: <1d0.16a873d2.2d1ca0d8@aol.com> Message-ID: I don't disagree, but I guess I wasn't clear in my message. What Guy was referring to was the older distinction between thou/thee and ye/you. The interviewer clearly didn't get it and just moved on, but Guy was trying to justify 'y'all' as plural by linking it to a time when 'you' was only plural. And this reminds me of another puzzling comment from NPR last week: The interviewer of a country singer (can't recall her name, but she didn't sound authentic to me; I've known people here who think they "talk Appalachian," for example) said that if listeners wanted to hear her "sing in Middle English" they could go to npr.org for that day. I haven't looked it up, but I wonder if he meant mountain/Appalachian/Scots-flavored/hillbilly English? Kinda like Elizabethan, maybe? These historical eras are hard to keep straight, you know. At 03:21 PM 12/25/2003 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 11/29/03 12:00:48 PM, flanigan at OHIO.EDU writes: > ><< and it was clear he >didn't know what Guy Bailey was talking about when he said "'you' was >originally plural, you know" (or words to that effect). >> > >Most of us believe that Y'ALL still *IS* plural. Guy Bailey may have heard >pseudo-y'all from displaced crypto-Yankees, but that don't make it rahht. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 26 21:02:13 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 16:02:13 -0500 Subject: pail of tears In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20031226153701.011530e8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 3:44 PM -0500 12/26/03, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >No, that's not "vale of tears." In the NY Times last week, I saw another >gem: Someone wrote an article that mentioned someone crying "a pail of >tears." (Sorry, I always seem to recycle my newspapers before I remember >to clip for ADS referencing.) Now, if the writer is a Northerner, I >suppose the phrase makes sense, Bob Dylan's a Northerner (< Hibbing, Minnesota), and for him it's buckets: Buckets of rain, buckets of tears, Got all them buckets comin' out of my ears --of course "pails of tears" wouldn't have scanned as well. >but I'm a Northerner too and I've never >ever heard the common idiom phrased in this way. Which idiom? Bucket(s) of tears? I wasn't familiar with that before the Dylan song. And vale of tears (as in describing this world as a ___) is quite a different kettle o' fish. Or tears. > Has anyone else? And >would this imply that one would also say "she cried a pailfull" or "his >tears came down in pails"? I take "pail" or "bucket" to refer to the container filled by the tears, not the manner in which they fall, so no, they wouldn't come down in pails or buckets, just lots of drops, enough for (metaphorical) pailfuls. I suppose "she cried a pailful/bucketful" would be interpretable. L From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Dec 26 22:56:18 2003 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 17:56:18 -0500 Subject: pail of tears In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yeah, but Dylan was always trying to sound Southern or Appalachian. As Trudgill pointed out, his "The times, they are a-changing" is a strange blend of standard and mountain; he pronounced the a-prefix as [e] and didn't change the -ng/[N] to [n]. So "them buckets" don't wash with me! Seriously though, I seem to recall "cried buckets" as the idiom we all grew up with even in Minnesota--and whether it was as container or droplets didn't seem to matter. But my memory is getting older and older. . . . At 04:02 PM 12/26/2003 -0500, you wrote: >At 3:44 PM -0500 12/26/03, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >>No, that's not "vale of tears." In the NY Times last week, I saw another >>gem: Someone wrote an article that mentioned someone crying "a pail of >>tears." (Sorry, I always seem to recycle my newspapers before I remember >>to clip for ADS referencing.) Now, if the writer is a Northerner, I >>suppose the phrase makes sense, > >Bob Dylan's a Northerner (< Hibbing, Minnesota), and for him it's buckets: > >Buckets of rain, buckets of tears, >Got all them buckets comin' out of my ears > >--of course "pails of tears" wouldn't have scanned as well. > >>but I'm a Northerner too and I've never >>ever heard the common idiom phrased in this way. > >Which idiom? Bucket(s) of tears? I wasn't familiar with that before >the Dylan song. And vale of tears (as in describing this world as a >___) is quite a different kettle o' fish. Or tears. > >> Has anyone else? And >>would this imply that one would also say "she cried a pailfull" or "his >>tears came down in pails"? > >I take "pail" or "bucket" to refer to the container filled by the >tears, not the manner in which they fall, so no, they wouldn't come >down in pails or buckets, just lots of drops, enough for >(metaphorical) pailfuls. I suppose "she cried a pailful/bucketful" >would be interpretable. > >L From dsgood at VISI.COM Sat Dec 27 00:11:21 2003 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 18:11:21 -0600 Subject: country singer stage dialect change Re: "Y'all" in Friday's New York Times In-Reply-To: <20031226204507.94B625A74@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Beverly Flanigan wrote: > And this reminds me of another puzzling comment from NPR last week: The > interviewer of a country singer (can't recall her name, but she didn't > sound authentic to me; I've known people here who think they "talk > Appalachian," for example) said that if listeners wanted to hear her "sing > in Middle English" they could go to npr.org for that day. I haven't looked > it up, but I wonder if he meant > mountain/Appalachian/Scots-flavored/hillbilly English? Kinda like > Elizabethan, maybe? These historical eras are hard to keep straight, you know. Something I keep meaning to ask about country music: In recordings from the 1920s, almost all country singers sound Southern/Lower South to my ear. (Exception -- one singer with a definite London accent singing an English music-hall song: "My Old Dutch." The music company representative who recorded him might not have noticed the difference from the way the singer's neighbors talked/sang. Or, more likely, didn't care.) This continues up through the 1940s. And then, in the 1960s and later, the singers sound South Midlands/Upper South. Or rather, a stage version of that dialect. (I suspect that performers who have that as their native dialect have to learn to use the country music version.) If I'm correct about this -- what happened to bring about this change? If I'm not correct -- what/how have I misheard? From dsgood at VISI.COM Sat Dec 27 00:15:25 2003 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 18:15:25 -0600 Subject: pail of tears In-Reply-To: <20031226210208.A4C8A5A54@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > At 3:44 PM -0500 12/26/03, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >>No, that's not "vale of tears." In the NY Times last week, I saw another >>gem: Someone wrote an article that mentioned someone crying "a pail of >>tears." (Sorry, I always seem to recycle my newspapers before I remember >>to clip for ADS referencing.) Now, if the writer is a Northerner, I >>suppose the phrase makes sense, > > > Bob Dylan's a Northerner (< Hibbing, Minnesota), and for him it's buckets: > > Buckets of rain, buckets of tears, > Got all them buckets comin' out of my ears > > --of course "pails of tears" wouldn't have scanned as well. But he's put a lot of work into not sounding like a Northerner. Despite coming from "So far north that Moosehead isn't a beer, it's a misdemeanor". (Sorry; I can't recall which Twin Cities comedian said that.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 27 02:14:56 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 21:14:56 EST Subject: WOTY commercialized by yourdictionary.com (now on Reuters) Message-ID: WOTY has been cheapened by yourdictionary.com. The commercial web site has chosen its "Words of 2003." A press release was sent to the media. Now, yourdictionary.com has its free ad--"press release"--on Reuters. It was picked up in today's NEW YORK POST. What hurts is that this schlock crowds out real, non-profit organizations like the American Dialect Society. In January, people will think: "Didn't I see that about a week ago?" Here's the story, followed by some other year-end stuff: http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/14512.htm 'EMBEDDED' WINNER IN A WAR OF WORDS December 26, 2003 -- LOS ANGELES - A Web site specializing in language named what it called the top word, phrase and name of the year yesterday, picking them all from the war in Iraq. "Embedded," as in the reporters assigned to accompany military units during the war, beat out "blog" and "SARS" as the top word of 2003, Web site yourDictionary.com said. "Embedded was the best word to distill the events of an extraordinary year into eight simple letters," said Paul JJ Payack, president of YourDictionary.com. "Shock and awe," the phrase the U.S. military used to describe the type of campaign it would wage in Iraq, topped other Iraq-related terms like "weapons of mass destruction" and "spider hole" as the top phrase of 2003. The name most on people's lips during the year was fallen Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. He beat out "Ahh-nold" (as in California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger) and "W." (as in President Bush). The site's lists are created by taking nominations from users around the world and then having them judged by "professional wordsmiths." http://c1.zedo.com/ads2/f/32261/3853/172/0/162000034/162000034/0/162/33/zz-V1- accuquote_gif_1103_gray.html The Year in Catch-Phrases Bennifer.. Metrosexual... The Governator... "TiVo It"... Punk'd... Friendster... Go Bags... SARS... Push Presents... Embedded reporters... Shock and Awe... War blog... Most-Wanted Cards... http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=857&ncid=757&e=10& u=/nm/20031219/od_uk_nm/oukoe_germany_phrase Germans pick "old Europe" as phrase of year Fri Dec 19,12:23 PM ET BERLIN (Reuters) - "Old Europe" -- a term U.S. Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld used to disparage Germany and France for resisting war in Iraq-- has been named phrase of the year in Germany by a panel of language experts From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 27 09:36:10 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 04:36:10 EST Subject: Day Late & Dollar Short (1939) Message-ID: Google has 13,800 hits and Google Groups has 10,500 hits for "day late and a dollar short." It was popularized recently by the Terry McMillan book A DAY LATE AND A DOLLAR SHORT (2001). Amazon.com has 54,000 hits!? I don't know what Fred Shapiro has. Many hits are from 1958 on, but it was at least used in the Depression of the 1930s. I didn't see it on American Memory (the WPA interviews from the 1930s are there). "A day late and a dollar short" is sometimes said to be a Southern expression, but Augusta Archives didn't have anything early. WorldCat is handy right now for a song title search. (ANCESTRY.COM/NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) 3 March 1939, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville, Illinois), pg. 6, col. 1 (COMICS): ( OUT OUR WAY by WiLLIAMS. The comic is signed J. R. WIlliams. From a word balloon--ed.) NO, HE'S IN THE SAME FIX AS TH' REST OF US--IT'S CALLED PROGRESS...I JUST LEARN ABOUT HALF THE TRAFFIC RULES AN' THEY CHANGE 'EM--YOU CAN'T BEAT PROGRESS--YOU'LL ALWAYS BE A DAY LATE AN' A DOLLAR SHORT. (LIBRARY OF CONGRESS) Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Brief Description: Squibb, Gerald A. A day late and a dollar short. Boston, Bruce Humphries [1958] 196 p. 22 cm. Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Brief Description: Van Cleve, Spike. A day late and a dollar short / by Spike Van Cleve ; introduction by A.B. Guthrie, Jr. 1st ed. Kansas City, Mo. : Lowell Press, c1982. xii, 282 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Brief Description: McMillan, Terry. A day late and a dollar short / Terry McMillan. New York : Viking, 2001. 431 p. ; 25 cm. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 27 10:00:32 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 05:00:32 EST Subject: Gets Late Early (Newspaperarchive.com thumbnails) Message-ID: In that last post, I had meant that WorldCat is NOT available to me at my home at this hour. NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM The mangled thumbnails were in the original. I liked that the "thumbnails" provided the publications, dates, and the keywords ("Windy City," for example). But, yes, some are seriously mangled. Nevertheless, it's a vast improvement over just dates. Then you'd have to wait maybe five minutes to download something that's often totally useless. I'm impressed that on "a day late and a dollar short" I pulled a citation from the comics. The comics are a great source of Americanisms. Not only that, but I got the citation even though "an'" was used for "and." I'm working full-time now (minus weekends and New Year's) until my January 4th Air France flight to West Africa gets blown up by international terrorists, but I'll try to finish a journal article on these new full-text newspaper archives before I leave. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 27 11:18:14 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 06:18:14 EST Subject: Not Chopped Liver (1947); Texas Toast (1960); Ants on a Log (1983) Message-ID: NOT CHOPPED LIVER On 9 August 2002, Michael Quinion--a brilliant OED contributor and web wordsmith who is not chopped liver--asked this: Here's one for you to chew on. Subscribers have suddenly started toask me about the origins of "what am I, chopped liver?". (Could a quiz have featured it recently?) I've done the obvious research, but can't find even the slightest clue as to why this odd expression could have come about. Any ideas, anyone? It's 1954 in the HDAS, but there's better. 5 April 1947, GETTYSBURG TIMES (PA), pg. 3, col. 1: _GRAZIANO ASKS_ _OPPORTUNITY_ _TO MEET ZALE_ By SID FEDER New York, April 3 (AP)--(...) The bash boulevardiers insist you could put on the second go-round of that hair-raiser in Moose Jaw, Sask., or Elephant Butte, N. M., and still draw a half-a-million dollars, which is not, as the boys say, chopped liver. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- TEXAS TOAST I don't know what the next DARE will have....If I'm not chopped liver, I'm toast. 7 November 1960, GREAT BEND DAILY TRIBUNE (Great Bend, Kansas), pg.5, col. 3 (Safeway ad): _Sklylark Bread_ 20-oz. loaf 27c Texas Style Thick Sliced White Sandwich loaf Perfect for Texas Toast ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ANTS ON A LOG I've posted 1960 for "bugs on a log." I thought I'd do better for "ants," but this is the best that's here. 4 May 1983, LETHBRIDGE HERALD (Canada), pg. C2, col. 8: Canadian Western Natural Gas Company _Blue Flame Kitchen_ Tested recipes (...) ANTS ON A LOG Spread celery sticks with peanut butter, or cheese whiz. Sprinkle with a few raisins and serve. From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sat Dec 27 11:45:02 2003 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:45:02 -0000 Subject: Not Chopped Liver (1947); Texas Toast (1960); Ants on a Log (1983) In-Reply-To: <11c.29cf6b04.2d1ec476@aol.com> Message-ID: > On 9 August 2002, Michael Quinion--a brilliant OED contributor and web > wordsmith who is not chopped liver--asked this: > It's 1954 in the HDAS, but there's better. Thanks! But your recent antedating of "ball of wax" has destroyed a nice theory I had about it. See the last para of http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-who5.htm Such is etymology ... -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 27 12:51:08 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 07:51:08 EST Subject: Canned Willie (1901); Canned Cow (1911) Message-ID: CANNED WILLIE Still earlier for "Willie," or corned beef hash in a can. I don't know what the HDAS has, but it has 1909 for "Bill." 8 October 1901, NEWARK DAILY ADVOCATE (Newark, Ohio), pg. 4, col. 1: _LETTER_ _From David R. Williams Formerly of_ _Newark, Now Corporal in the U._ _S. Cavalry._ (...) Fort Keogh, Mont., Sept. 28 (...) We had no sickness on our trip, but had a hard time to get enough hard tack and (Col. 2--ed.) canned willie, as it is called here; ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CANNED COW The HDAS has 1925 for "canned condensed milk." The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG doesn't have a (canned) cow. 29 August 1911, STEVENS POINT DAILY JOURNAL (Stevens Point, Wisconsin), pg. 3?, col. 3: "If you fellers has got airy milk and sugar 'n' will pass out some coffee with 'em, I'll be mighty glad yer come. Hog and hominy's all right for a spell, but it gets sickenin'. Got er plug o' terbaccy?" Not only did Frank get out the canned cow and sugar, but he made biscuits in the Dutch oven and the eyes of the hunters fairly glistened at visions of the feast. (The same article is in the SHEBOYGAN PRESS, 13 September 1911--ed.) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 14:33:20 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 09:33:20 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Intellectual Property" In-Reply-To: <200312271118.hBRBIUI28555@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: intellectual property (OED 1845) 1807-8 _The Medical Repository of Original Essays and Intelligence_ XI. 303 (heading) New-England Association in favour of Inventors and Discoverers, and particularly for the Protection of intellectual Property. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From douglas at NB.NET Sat Dec 27 14:46:50 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 09:46:50 -0500 Subject: Not Chopped Liver (1947); Texas Toast (1960); Ants on a Log (1983) In-Reply-To: <3FED70BE.7898.AFEBD3@localhost> Message-ID: >But your recent antedating of "ball of wax" has destroyed a nice >theory I had about it. My default hypothesis would be that "ball of wax" in this sense originated as an 'intentional malapropism' for "bailiwick". This would be analogous to (and conceivably the model for?) "[mind your own] beeswax" for "business". It would seem that "ball o' wax" was available early enough to be picked up for the malapropism (with the meaning "shoemaker" ... although the meaning -- as with "beeswax" -- is presumably of no significance). No etymological legend about balls of wax is required IMHO. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 27 15:37:14 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:37:14 EST Subject: Dollars to Doughnuts (1876); Location Location Location (1960); Twin Cities Message-ID: DOLLARS TO DOUGHNUTS I had found 1886. 11 March 1876, DAILY NEVADA STATE JOURNAL, pg. 2?, col. 4: HALF FARE.--Several Benoites took a vantage of the half fare tickets offered to those who were to attend the ball given by the railroad boys at Carson last night, and attended it. It's dollars to doughnuts all enjoyed themselves. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ALL THAT JAZZ The song "All That Jazz" is in musical CHICAGO. The setting is supposed to be the 1920s, but the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG gives "all that jazz" from the 1950s. I couldn't do better. 4 February 1946, BERKSHIRE EVENING EAGLE (Pittsfield, Mass.), pg. 10, col. 6: Especially the musical programs. If only more classic instead all that jazz was played. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- DELHI BELLY I've been re-checking for diarrhea. This is not the earliest "Delhi belly," but it's close to it. (See the ADS-L archives for the idiot who went to India, then checked the CBI ROUNDUP in the Library of Congress.) 5 February 1943, SHEBOYGAN PRESS (Sheboygan, Wisconsin), pg. 3, col. 5: "There is another fever that is going around. The British call it 'dinghy'. Oh yes, there are a lot of things that a guy can get out here, 'prickly heat', 'Bengal rot', 'dobies itch', 'Delhi belly', and ringworm. Prickly heat are smal;l blisters that come out when it is hot; Bengal rot is a ringworm infection; dobies itch is a ringworm infection from fresh laundry (a 'dobie' is a laundryman); and Delhi belly is the same as diarrhea." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION A good test of the search engine. I also tried "boola boola" and "boula boula." 4 May 1960, IOWA CITY PRESS CITIZEN, pg. 23, col. 2: LOCATION! LOCATION! Location! A famous realtor once said the three most important features of a home are its location. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- TWIN CITIES (continued) Another old request from the archives. Only the 10-19-1883 citation appears to involve Minneapolis and St. Paul. Oshkosh Northwestern - 11/21/1883 ...he TWIN City Newt, ever alert to keep tbe ''TWIN CITIES" up with the record, comes out.....a formal expression of thanks to the CITIES of Ncenuh, Mcnasha, Fond du I.ac.....to tho tiro departments of each of tho CITIES named, anil to presidents and general.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Wednesday, November 21, 1883 809 k Bismarck Tribune - 10/19/1883 ...almost overwhelming; outburst in the TWIN CITIES of St. Paul and Minneapolis, it.....in expressing to the inhabitants of the CITIES and towns the North Pacific, and to.. Bismarck, North Dakota Friday, October 19, 1883 873 k Oshkosh Northwestern - 11/17/1882 ...and well known in the vicinity of the TWIN CITIES. They express the intention of.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Friday, November 17, 1882 1041 k New York Times - 2/27/1860 ...these wonder not that are solicitous of the TWIN CITIES, It the puhUc the consequent.....tor o[ a taw cremes m Heallh for the CITIES of Broeklyn, (a dodging of the.. New York, New York Monday, February 27, 1860 779 k Oshkosh Northwestern - 9/21/1883 ...rnu between Menasbn. Our best people of tho TWIN CITIES did not attend tho Fair on.....for Wausmi aud would be a credit to many CITIES much larger than this. Several of our.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Friday, September 21, 1883 784 k Oshkosh Northwestern - 5/26/1883 ...Day will be obseivedas usual by the TWIN CITIES, which means everybody will torn.....Items of Interest from tbe Junior TWIN City. Bnlldlng Improvements, Personal.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Saturday, May 26, 1883 847 k Oshkosh Daily Northwestern - 6/21/1879 ...mills and other p'aces of industry in tbe TWIN CITIES of Lake language canoot fuHy.....drives about the flourishing maoufacturlng CITIES of Xeenah and Menasha and nimbly.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Saturday, June 21, 1879 957 k Bismarck Tri Weekly Tribune - 2/25/1878 ...beat anything we have seen this side of the TWIN CITIES of Over Mr Kelt's shining face in.. Bismarck, North Dakota Monday, February 25, 1878 575 k Oshkosh Daily Northwestern - 6/20/1879 ...from tbe drive about j Atwoud, the TWIN CITIES, the visit to the paper Executive.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Friday, June 20, 1879 896 k From orinkh at CARR.ORG Sat Dec 27 15:36:29 2003 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:36:29 -0500 Subject: Texas Toast (1960) Message-ID: Concerning Texas Toast: I remember it was an item on the menu at a restaurant (was it a small chain?) called the "Denver Drumstick" (in Denver CO) in the late 1950s. Which makes me wonder, are there any historical menus about, and would these be useful for antedating some food terms? Orin Hargraves From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Sat Dec 27 16:03:28 2003 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:03:28 EST Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust Message-ID: The NY Times today in an article on junior high students said that the coolest boys do not do anything that could be considered girlish, like say "eyew"-- is this the way we want to spell that? And anyway, who gets to choose? Some editor at the NY Times? Maybe along with the WOTY announcements, this year the ADS should come out with an official recommendation for this expression. I think I might favor something more like ee-yoo, to make it clearer what the onset is. And by the way--is this a new phoneme for Americans? The only example in its class? Dale Coye The College of NJ From preston at MSU.EDU Sat Dec 27 16:07:21 2003 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:07:21 -0500 Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust In-Reply-To: <13.2677579e.2d1f0750@aol.com> Message-ID: >Don't forget the considerable fronting of the last vocalic element, >particualarly noticable in the group under discussion. Makes the >spelling all that much harder. I confess not to understand the phoneme part of this comment. dInIs >The NY Times today in an article on junior high students said that the >coolest boys do not do anything that could be considered girlish, >like say "eyew"-- >is this the way we want to spell that? And anyway, who gets to choose? Some >editor at the NY Times? Maybe along with the WOTY announcements, this year the >ADS should come out with an official recommendation for this expression. I >think I might favor something more like ee-yoo, to make it clearer what the >onset is. And by the way--is this a new phoneme for Americans? The only >example in its class? > >Dale Coye >The College of NJ -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Sat Dec 27 16:19:38 2003 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:19:38 EST Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust Message-ID: Abot the phoneme: I was half-jokingly speculating about the possibility of analyzing this as a vowel diphthong /iu/, that would take its place beside /ou/, /au/, and /Uu/. Dale Coye The College of NJ From douglas at NB.NET Sat Dec 27 16:49:51 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:49:51 -0500 Subject: "Whole Ball of Wax" (1882) In-Reply-To: <154.2a902682.2d1d2b6f@aol.com> Message-ID: "Atlanta Constitution", 25 Apr. 1882: p. 4, col.4: "Look Out For Him" (attrib. "Cincinnati Enquirer"): ---------- <> ---------- -- Doug Wilson From debaron at UIUC.EDU Sat Dec 27 16:57:18 2003 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:57:18 -0600 Subject: word of the year Message-ID: As some ADS-ers make their way to Boston for the annual meeting and the annual election of the word of the year, I thought that since I can't make it-yet again-I'd send along my comments on woty for your information. Best, Dennis The Word of the Year, 2003 by Dennis Baron I am pleased to announce my choice for word of the year for 2003. WOTY, the Word of the Year, is not as glamorous as the Oscars, not as cutthroat as the Booker, not at silly as the Daytime Emmys. There's no money attached to the word of the year, no gold statuette or platinum CD, no certificate suitable for framing. The word of the year may not even rate a dictionary appearance. Nonetheless, competition is fierce, for the word of the year reflects the state of the language and, by extension, the state of the world. Last year, the war in Iraq generated the word of the year: weapons of mass destruction (phrases may also win). But since there were no weapons of mass destruction, this year's entries from Iraq-Saddamize, Iraqification, and roadside bomb-have had their contender status downgraded from orange to yellow. Spider hole-the excavation where Saddam Hussein was found hiding-might have had a chance for word of the year, but since it first appeared in World War II, it can only enter in the category "best revival." It looks like Iraq won't be the source of this year's word of the year unless someone can figure out how to use Halliburton as a verb. The world of gender produced some good candidates for word of the year. The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court thrust gay marriage onto the national consciousness in November when it decided that same-sex partners could not be excluded from the benefits, legal, conjugal, and taxable, that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts affords to married couples. Gay marriage is controversial enough that conservatives want to amend the U.S. Constitution to ban it. Less likely to raise hackles is another WOTY possible, metrosexual, an urban straight male who is unashamedly into fashion, food, and personal grooming. Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean acknowledged his metrosexuality, but later backed away from the term, claiming he wasn't sure what it meant. Perhaps the most successful gender phrase of the year has been queer eye, from the Bravo cable network show "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy," in which a group of five gay men turn a volunteer Oscar Madison into a metrosexual. So far there have been no threats from the right to make queer eye unconstitutional, though a group of fashion-challenged gays is suing in Massachusetts for equal access to makeovers. That brings us to the winner, this year's word of the year. It's a phrase that's been lurking in the background for over a decade, but like a film that opens on Christmas so that it can make the Oscar deadline, this phrase suddenly hit everyone's lips on December 22: it's mad cow. The radio announced news of the first U.S. cow to test positive for bovine spongiform encephalopathy just as I was dishing up a nice sesame ginger beef stir fry. The sauce had just the right amount of sherry, lots of fresh shaved ginger, roasted sesame seeds, some perky fresh-squeezed lime, crisp straw mushrooms, whole baby corn, and the thinnest slices of bully American beef, all on a bed of wheat noodles which had been boiled for exactly three minutes and then flash fried. We talked about mad cow disease all through dinner. A friend, who was also cooking beef stir fry, called to say, "I told you so." When we finished eating, all that remained was the delicately-flavored beef, which we moved nervously around our plates with our chopsticks. As we sit down to holiday meals, business lunches, and midnight snacks, we face the daunting prospect that the anorexics had it right: there is nothing safe to eat. Poultry harbors salmonella, green onions give you hepatitis, fish is full of toxins, and pork inspires so much terror that two of the world's major religions ban it. It won't be long before scientists discover tofu fever. Once beef merely clogged our arteries. Now it can make holes in our brains. Beef may or may not continue to be what's for dinner in this country, but it's clear that mad cow, the word of the year for 2003, will dominate American dinner table conversation-and economic activity-for much of the new year as well. -- _______________ Dennis Baron office: 217-244-0568 Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 University of Illinois www.staff.uiuc.edu/~debaron 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, Illinois 61801 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 17:10:31 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 12:10:31 -0500 Subject: "Gentlemen, Start Your Engines" In-Reply-To: <200312271706.hBRH6Sk19584@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: I am trying to see how far back the phrase "gentlemen, start your engines" goes, and to determine whether any individual is said to be its coiner. I would welcome any information about the phrase's provenance; the earliest evidence I have so far is a 1955 book with the phrase as its title. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From simon at IPFW.EDU Sat Dec 27 20:10:00 2003 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:10:00 -0500 Subject: cell phone hang up Message-ID: dear all is there term other than "hang up" for what one does to end a call on a cell phone? thanks beth simon beth lee simon, ph.d. associate professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university fort wayne, in 46805-1499 us voice 260 481 6761; fax 260 481 6985 email simon at ipfw.edu From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Dec 27 20:15:06 2003 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:15:06 -0500 Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust In-Reply-To: <9.1f4e903e.2d1f0b1a@aol.com> Message-ID: >Don't some dialects (not mine) already have one? dInIs >Abot the phoneme: I was half-jokingly speculating about the possibility of >analyzing this as a vowel diphthong /iu/, that would take its place beside >/ou/, /au/, and /Uu/. > >Dale Coye >The College of NJ From pds at VISI.COM Sat Dec 27 21:43:27 2003 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:43:27 -0600 Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust In-Reply-To: <20031227160348.BA4FE5EEA@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: My own spelling -- eeugh! -- comes from I know not where. FWIW: Google just gave me 1532 hits for "eyew", but most of them were not for the exclamation of disgust. "Eeugh" got 332 hits, and it seems that most are for the exclamation. --Tom Kysilko At 12/27/2003 11:03 AM -0500, Dale Coye wrote: >The NY Times today in an article on junior high students said that the >coolest boys do not do anything that could be considered girlish, like say >"eyew"-- >is this the way we want to spell that? >I might favor something more like ee-yoo Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 28 00:51:05 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:51:05 -0500 Subject: "All That Jazz" (1929) Message-ID: ALL THAT JAZZ From ProQuest. There's a 28-year gap here, though. Nothing in any other database is anywhere near this early. THE NEW WEEK'S BILLS; METROPOLITAN EARLE PALACE LITTLE THEATER THE STRAND FOX COLUMBIA By NELSON B. BELL.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 3, 1929. p. 16 (1 page): _FOX_ "GIRLS GONE WILD." A William Fox sound picture, featuring Sue Carol and Nick Stuart... ------------------- While there is some justification for the title--in a nice way--this picture is by no means so tawdry as its name implies. Not that it is any great shakes as drama, but combined with what threatened to be merely another exploitation of the recklessness of modern youth there is a bit of high-power police stuff that partially takes the curse off all that jazz. Bob Addie's Column . . . The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Sep 13, 1957. p. A19 (1 page) (I'll have to order a copy of GIRLS GONE WILD for research purposes--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ WHOLE BALL OF WAX Congratulations to Doug for "the whole ball of wax." I expect it to be in PUCK--if that project ever gets finished. Not all of the material on newspaperarchive.com is available for the new search engine. The 1882 citation just never came up. Also, I limit the years of a search, but still get all the years (to 2003). From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 28 01:23:50 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:23:50 -0500 Subject: "Gentlemen, start your engines" (1952) Message-ID: I am trying to see how far back the phrase "gentlemen, start your engines" goes, and to determine whether any individual is said to be its coiner. I would welcome any information about the phrase's provenance; the earliest evidence I have so far is a 1955 book with the phrase as its title. Fred Shapiro --------------------------------------------------------------- Wendy let me in I wanna be your friend I want to guard your dreams and visions Just wrap your legs 'round these velvet rims and strap your hands across my engines. --Bruce Springsteen, "Born to Run" 8 June 1952, NEVADA STATE JOURNAL, pg. 11, col. 2 (about the "Indianapolis Auto Race on Memorial Day"): About 9:25 a.m. cars were shoved from the pit area to their proper location on the track, and at 9:35 a.m. all cars were in place, the official photo was taken, and at 9:30 a.m. (Col. 3--ed.) starter Seth Klein said, "Gentlemen, start your engines." 7 May 1954, FREDERICK POST (Frederick, Maryland), pg. 17, col. 2 ("the 38th annual 500-mile race at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway"): Finally, the command: "Gentlemen, start your engines." From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Sun Dec 28 02:58:05 2003 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (Vida J Morkunas) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:58:05 -0800 Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust In-Reply-To: <13.2677579e.2d1f0750@aol.com> Message-ID: Here's what I think of NYT's spelling of that exclamation of disgust: eww! Vida. vidamorkunas at telus.net -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Dale Coye Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 8:03 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust The NY Times today in an article on junior high students said that the coolest boys do not do anything that could be considered girlish, like say "eyew"-- is this the way we want to spell that? And anyway, who gets to choose? Some editor at the NY Times? Maybe along with the WOTY announcements, this year the ADS should come out with an official recommendation for this expression. I think I might favor something more like ee-yoo, to make it clearer what the onset is. And by the way--is this a new phoneme for Americans? The only example in its class? Dale Coye The College of NJ From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Dec 28 03:54:02 2003 From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:54:02 -0800 Subject: Texas Toast (1960) In-Reply-To: <200312271538.hBRFcmf0011816@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: You'll find them in manuscripts collections. Also Bowling Green has a Popular History Collection, if I'm not mistaken. Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, Orin Hargraves wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Orin Hargraves > Subject: Re: Texas Toast (1960) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Concerning Texas Toast: I remember it was an item on the menu at a restaurant > (was it a small chain?) called the "Denver Drumstick" (in Denver CO) in the > late 1950s. Which makes me wonder, are there any historical menus about, and > would these be useful for antedating some food terms? > > Orin Hargraves > From douglas at NB.NET Sun Dec 28 04:14:01 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 23:14:01 -0500 Subject: Yards of ammo (1944) Message-ID: "Whole nine yards of ammunition"? It has been claimed that belted ammunition is/was NEVER referred to by belt length (i.e., by yardage). Of course "never" is a little bit too strong. From Ancestry.com: ---------- "Independent Record" (Helena MT), 29 Nov. 1944: p. 1, cols. 2-4: <> [Photo of four men feeding a long belt of what looks like .50-cal. ammo into an airplane: the visible part of the belt looks to be roughly six yards long; perhaps there is some more already fed into the plane --DW] <> ---------- Exactly the same piece is found in the "Reno Evening Gazette" (Reno NV), 28 Nov. 1944, p. 7. Since the text and photo are identical and neither paper gives attribution to another nor to a press agency or other source, I speculate that the caption was composed by some agency of the USAF and supplied along with the photo ... which would imply that "yards" was considered reasonable terminology for belted ammo within the USAF (although perhaps theoretically only in material for civilian consumption). Each round of .50-cal. is about 0.8 in. in diameter and weighs about 4 oz., I think. I would expect the typical belt to have roughly 400 rounds (this is the only number which I have found specifically cited in a US Government publication referring to the ammo load for a WW II era bomber's gun), thus (allowing for links) I would expect roughly 28-30 feet of belted ammo weighing a little over 100 pounds. The message here is that USAF belted .50-cal. WW II ammo was sometimes (maybe seldom, but sometimes) referred to in yards. I consider the ammo-belt story the most plausible of the 'usual' "whole nine yards" etymology stories ... although still not proven by any means. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 28 08:40:34 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 03:40:34 EST Subject: Jo Jo Potatoes (1963) Message-ID: CORRECTION: In the "Gentleman, start your engines" post and 1952 cite, the last time is probably "9:50," not "9:30." It was difficult to read. TEXAS TOAST: Thanks for the 1950s "Denver Drumstick" (Denver, CO) recollection. The NYPL and the N-YHS both have large menu collections, but mostly of the fancy dinners of the late 19th- and early 20th-centuries. The Los Angeles Public Library has put some menus online. Johnson & Wales University also has a menu collection that I'll check out when I have time. For chain restaurants (McDonald's), the company usually keeps records. OT: NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE OF THE MONTH, PART THREE: In Sunday's NEW YORK POST (www.nypost.com; also in the TIMES), 28 December 2003, pg. 5, is a full-page story: "Cab jumps curb, kills customer on East 57th." That's my block. In the past month: 1. There was a Guyana plane crash within 48 hours of my flight, for the same flight path. 2. There was a gas explosion at work, at a place I was standing just moments before. 3. A cab jumped the curb and killed someone on the sidewalk of my block. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- JO JO POTATOES Sam Clements posted "Jo Jo Potatoes" on 10 February 2003: I tried a search but didn't find anything. I was born in Danville, VA. and raised in Arlington VA. Lived in NC for 6years. And then I moved to Akron, OH. in 1972. Never heard the term untilI moved to Ohio.They have broasted chicken and "Jo Jo's" here. They're potato wedges,lightly breaded(sometimes) and deep fried. MUCH larger than "steak fries."Sometimes as big as taking a whole potato and quartering it lengthwise. Always still in the skin.Why the name "Jo Jo?" (or "jojo") The Newspaperarchive.com database is especially weak for the Northwest for this time period (1950s-present). These are the earliest "Jo-Jos." Maybe A& W has records/menus? 17 June 1963, MONROE COUNTY NEWS (Albion, Iowa), pg. 2, col. 1: Try FLAVOR-CRISP CHICKEN PRESSURE FRIED Includes chicken, cole slaw, Jo Jo potatoes, and roll _Carol's A&W_ 1 April 1967, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. 12?, col. 7 (ad): _Angelina's now offers_ _pressure fried chicken_ (...) This chicken, along with Jo-Jo potatoes, which are baking potatoes quartered and pressure cooked with the (Col. 8--ed.) chicken, makes a ready-to-eat meal. 15 April 1968, MONROE COUNTY NEWS (Albion, Iowa), pg. 3?, cols. 6-8: _Carol's A & W DRIVE-IN_ Jo Jo Potatoes...30c 25 September 1970, SHEBOYGAN PRESS (Sheboygan, Wisconsin), pg. 3, col. 4: 21-piece BARREL with 12 Jo-Jo potatoes, served 7-10 persons HERZIGER'S Restaurant 1213 Superior Ave. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 28 11:35:38 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 06:35:38 EST Subject: Lips Are Moving (1935) & Professional Courtesy (1949); Cosmopolitan (1994) Message-ID: LIPS ARE MOVING An old joke said of lawyers and politicians. How can you tell he's lying? His lips are moving. Fred Shapiro had posted this: I don't know whether this was first used about politicians or lawyers.The Oxford Dictionary of American Legal Quotations has the following:How can you tell if a lawyer is lying?His lips are moving.Los Angeles Times, 9 July 1986, at 3. Then, Fred Shapiro posted this: Here's some better information I found since my last posting. It's taken from the definitive work on lawyer jokes, an unpublished manuscript by Marc Galanter: "I was surprised to discover that this is a rather recent addition to the lawyer joke corpus, appearing in print first in 1986. It derives from a joke about husbands which has been around since at least the 1940s.[Galanter cites here to Eddie Cantor, World's Book of Best Jokes (1943),p. 171, and Frederick Meier, The Joke Tellers Joke Book (1944), p. 306.]Although sometimes told about women, salespeople, senators, criminalsuspects, economists, politicians, and others, it has become predominantly a lawyer joke -- at least in the United States." This comes from a Newspaperarchive.com scan of a comic speech-balloon--another encouraging search sign. 15 June 1935, DENTON JOURNAL (Denton, Maryland), pg. 4, col. 2 comic: "THE FEATHERHEADS" By Osborne PANEL ONE WIFE: WELL, WHERE HAVE _YOU_ BEEN SO LATE? HUSBAND: WELL--ER--YOU SEE-- PANEL TWO WIFE: BEFORE YOU START--I MIGHT AS WELL TELL YOU I CAN TELL IF YOU'RE LYING! HUSBAND: HUH! I WOULDN'T LIE TO YOU, DARLING--BUT HOW COULD YOU TELL IF I DID? PANEL THREE WIFE: BY LOOKING AT YOUR FACE--IF YOUR LIPS ARE MOVING--YOU'RE LYING!! PANEL FOUR WIFE: WELL--GO ON WITH YOUR STORY. PANEL FIVE DUCK/NARRATOR: IF YOUR STORY IS DOUBTFUL--LET IT LIE. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- PROFESSIONAL COURTESY I don't know Fred Shapiro's latest for this popular joke about lawyers. 15 June 1949, NASHUA TELEGRAPH (Nashua, New Hampshire), pg. 12, col. 5 ("National Whirligig" by Ray Tucker): _HUMOR_--Although once a New Deal legalite and bureaucrat, former Price Administrator and Brain Truster Paul A. Porter has not permitted those assignments to rob him of his sense of humor. In a recent address to a law group, he dared to demean their profession. "Three men--a lawyer, an atheist and a professing Christian," he said, "were shipwrecked on a raft with the sharks circling around. Then it became clear that the raft would hold only two of them, they drew lots as to who would jump off. The lawyer jumped, but the man-eating sharks turned away and let him pass through their midst. "There," commented the Christian. "he was spared because I offered up prayers for him." "You're wrong," replied the non-believer. "The sharks spared him out of professional courtesy." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- COSMOPOLITAN (continued) I e-mailed COSMOPOLITAN magazine about the first citation of the "Cosmopolitan cocktail" in its pages...PLAYBOY runs articles on drinks, but I don't see that it's searchable online. William Grimes's STRAIGHT UP OR ON THE ROCKS has a nice treatment of "Cosmopolitan" in the 2001 second edition. I don't know if it's in the first edition. A check of Amazon.com's new "in-the-book" search feature shows the "Cosmopolitan" in Kristin McKloy's SOME GIRLS (1994). STRAIGHT UP OR ON THE ROCKS: THE STORY OF THE AMERICAN COCKTAIL by William Grimes North Point Press November 2001 Pg. 119: The image of vodka as a refresher, and the cocktail as a kind of sports drink, reached an apotheosis with the Cosmopolitan, one of the stranger success stories of the present day. The drink, a pleasant blend of vodka, cranberry juice, lime juice, and Cointreau, is a slightly wealthier relative of cranberry coolers like the Cape Codder. It first surfaced in the late 1980s, and unlike other fad cocktails, it has not only survived but prospered. More than a decade after first being sighted, it may well be the most universally ordered mixed drink in America, for reasons that one can onlu guess at. It looks attractive in a glass, with a pink neon glow. It bursts with agreeable fruit flavors. The key to its phenomenal success may, however, bye the name. No one feels silly ordering it. At a time when classic cocktails command new respect, it sounds as though it might have a pedigree. And as a statement, "I am cosmpolitan" is hard to improve on. Like a well-written sit-com, it glatters its audience into believing they are a little more sophisticated and knowing than they really are. It's an insider's cocktail that absolutely everyone drinks, a glossy fake that with effortless charm has insinuated itself into the cocktail repertoire. Like the talented Mr. Ripley, it showed up one day wearing the right clothes. No one knows if it will ever leave. Some girls (1994) by Kristin McCloy > Excerpt from page 62 "... wait for her to answer. Claude, can you make a > Cosmopolitan? Did I go to Andrew's ... it expertly in a silver cocktail > shaker, vodka and lime juice and Cointreau with a splash of cranberry. What would > Tommy be doing now, she thought as he ..." From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Sun Dec 28 12:02:43 2003 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:02:43 -0000 Subject: "All That Jazz" (1929) Message-ID: I'm loathe to quibble, and no-one is keener to give due plaudits to Barry's discoveries, but could not the 'jazz' in this cite be no more than jazz as played, as in 'all that jazz [music that there is in the movie].' I haven't seen 'Girls Gone Wild' (I haven't _heard_ of GGW) but with that reference to the 'recklessness of modern youth' it sounds suspiciously like a precursor of all those Fifties teen titles in which rock 'n' roll, rather than jazz, was seen as the end of the world as we know it, but which, with its audience aforethought, invariably had loads of the music in question. So, as I say, might the phrase not be literal, rather than figurative? Jonathon Green From douglas at NB.NET Sun Dec 28 14:49:41 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:49:41 -0500 Subject: "All That Jazz" (1929) In-Reply-To: <083F4570.5BD10DD1.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: >THE NEW WEEK'S BILLS; METROPOLITAN EARLE PALACE LITTLE THEATER THE STRAND >FOX COLUMBIA >By NELSON B. BELL.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun >3, 1929. p. 16 (1 page): > _FOX_ > "GIRLS GONE WILD." A William Fox sound picture, featuring Sue Carol > and Nick Stuart... >------------------- > While there is some justification for the title--in a nice way--this > picture is by no means so tawdry as its name implies. Not that it is any > great shakes as drama, but combined with what threatened to be merely > another exploitation of the recklessness of modern youth there is a bit > of high-power police stuff that partially takes the curse off all that jazz. > >Bob Addie's Column . . . >The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Sep >13, 1957. p. A19 (1 page) What is the date of the quotation, please? June 3, 1929? Sep. 13, 1957? -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Sun Dec 28 15:00:31 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 10:00:31 -0500 Subject: "Gentlemen, start your engines" (1952) In-Reply-To: <18719EC5.1E6901CB.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: "Iowa City Press Citizen" (Iowa City IA), 24 May 1952: p. 8, cols. 7-8: "The Indianapolis 500": <<... But the greatest thrill, for spectators and drivers alike, comes when the starter lifts a megaphone to his mouth at precisely two minutes before 10 a.m. and shouts, "Gentlemen -- Start Your Engines!">> ---------- Looks like 9:58 a.m. in this piece. My Gugelblick shows a remark to the effect that the famous instruction became associated with the Indy 500 after 1946 (when the race was reinstituted after WW II); another remark says "early 1950's". Just unsupported Web-factoids. -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 28 15:04:51 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 10:04:51 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Strip Poker" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: strip poker (OED 1929) 1912 _Fort Wayne Sentinel_ 5 Mar. 2 (Ancestry.com) TONIGHT ... STRIP POKER VAUDEVILLE. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Sun Dec 28 16:38:28 2003 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:38:28 EST Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust Message-ID: In a message dated 12/27/2003 3:15:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > >Don't some dialects (not mine) already have one? > > dInIs > > > >Abot the phoneme: I was half-jokingly speculating about the possibility of > >analyzing this as a vowel diphthong /iu/, that would take its place beside > >/ou/, /au/, and /Uu/. > In parts of the South they have /ju/ in variation with /iu/ and according to PEAS it used to be a folk pronunciation in NE-Upstate NY, but I believe it has now died out (this is in words like music, due, news in NE). But what's interesting about ee-yoo is that all dialects in the US have added it (at least that's my guess), so we have this diphthong existing in a single lexical item. I don't say this much unless I'm trying to get a reaction from my children, but as I experiment with these sounds, I realize I do have another expression of disgust which I'd render as /i 'j at x/--maybe we'd write it yuch--with a good German velar voiceless fricative at the end. I don't know if other people have it but it could be put to use teaching students that elusive German sound. Dale Coye The College of NJ From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Sun Dec 28 18:27:25 2003 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:27:25 -0600 Subject: cell phone hang up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How about "punch out"? sod From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Dec 28 20:54:16 2003 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 15:54:16 -0500 Subject: cell phone hang up In-Reply-To: <7BFB861F-3963-11D8-80C8-003065F63A80@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: I've heard "disconnect" and "dropped call," but these tend to be used for involuntary loss of signal not deliberate hang ups. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Sally O. Donlon > Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 1:27 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: cell phone hang up > > > How about "punch out"? > > sod > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 28 20:55:33 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 15:55:33 EST Subject: "All That Jazz" (1929) Message-ID: In a message dated 12/28/2003 9:51:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, douglas at NB.NET writes: > > >THE NEW WEEK'S BILLS; METROPOLITAN EARLE PALACE LITTLE THEATER THE STRAND > >FOX COLUMBIA > >By NELSON B. BELL.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun > >3, 1929. p. 16 (1 page): > > _FOX_ > > "GIRLS GONE WILD." A William Fox sound picture, featuring Sue Carol > > and Nick Stuart... > >------------------- > > While there is some justification for the title--in a nice way--this > > picture is by no means so tawdry as its name implies. Not that it is any > > great shakes as drama, but combined with what threatened to be merely > > another exploitation of the recklessness of modern youth there is a bit > > of high-power police stuff that partially takes the curse off all that > jazz. > > > >Bob Addie's Column . . . > >The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Sep > >13, 1957. p. A19 (1 page) > > What is the date of the quotation, please? June 3, 1929? Sep. 13, 1957? > > -- Doug Wilson The date is June 3, 1929. The next "all that jazz" in the WASHINGTON POST is in "Bob Addie's column," September 12, 1957--twenty-eight years later. I felt that it was necessary to show the gap here. We have slightly earlier 1950s citations for "all that jazz," but not by much. Barry Popik From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Dec 28 22:21:04 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 16:21:04 -0600 Subject: Blend: "curried to the right" (= curried favor with the right) Message-ID: From columnist Ellen Goodman, "Mistakes? We've Made a Few," _St. Louis Post-Dispatch_, Sunday, Dec. 28, 2003, Section B, p. 3, col. 1: "...As for the column saying President Bush 'curried to the right,' it turns out that he can curry favor with the right or he can cater to the right, but he can't curry to them. No matter how much he tries." Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 28 22:43:46 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 17:43:46 EST Subject: Long Johns (1930); Bismarcks (1917); Bishop's Nose (1900) Message-ID: LONG JOHNS I looked again for "long john." DARE has 1945. The Newspaperarchive.com database didn't show that other 1952 "Gentleman, start your engines." I also re-checked for "strip poker" and didn't find the citation that I had posted from Ancestry.com using "Strip" (First Name) and "Poker" (Last Name). So the search engine, while vastly improved, is not perfect. Chronicle Telegram - 2/16/1940 ...Choc. Malted Milk Cakes 18e 25c Glazed LONG JOHNS doz. 20c Chop Suey Rolls doz. 20c.. Elyria, Ohio Friday, February 16, 1940 451 k 16 February 1940, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. 19?, col. 1: FRANK'S BAKERY SPECIALS FOR SATURDAY Choc. Malted Milk Cakes...18c-25c Glazed Long Johns...doz. 20c Chop Suey Rolls...doz. 20c Parkerhouse and Cloverleaf Rolls...doz. 15c Sun Herald - 11/13/1930 ...Cakes, Pies, Doughnuts, Bismarcks and LONG JOHNS We invite you to come in and see.....me thnt hc can p relict just about how LONG a new man will last. "If hla flrst req.. Lime Springs, Iowa Thursday, November 13, 1930 431 k 13 November 1930, SUN-HERALD (Lime Springs, Iowa), pg.5?, cols. 5-7: Shelton's Bakery At Lime Springs Bread, Rolls, Cakes, Pies, Doughnuts, Bismarcks and Long Johns ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BISMARCKS DARE has 1930 (for "long-john") and 1950. I searched "Bismarcks" with another keyword such as "cakes" and "pies." See also the ADS-L archives. Decatur Review - 7/20/1917 ...Rolls lOc each Marshmallow Rolls lOe each BISMARCKS ,15c doz. And Many Other Bits of.....Doughnuts 12c doz. Cake Doughnuts .15c doz. PIES, all kinds ,15c each Layer Cakes ,..-25c.. Decatur, Illinois Friday, July 20, 1917 481 k 20 July 1917, DECATUR REVIEW (Decatur, Illinois), pg. 6?, col. 2: The National Bakery 133 North Water Street (...) Layer Cakes... Jelly Rolls... Marshmallow Rolls... Bismarcks...15c doz. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BISHOP'S NOSE Just above "bismarck" in DARE is "bishop's nose." It's a "pope's nose" or "parson's nose." (See ADS-L archives.) DARE has 1965-70. The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "1960s." The article is worth transcribing in full. Reno Evening Gazette - 4/28/1900 ...the rump of a fowl is the "parson's" or "BISHOP'S" NOSE; a bowic knife Is an "Arkansas.. Reno, Nevada Saturday, April 28, 1900 663 k 28 April 1900, RENO EVENING GAZETTE (Reno, Nevada), pg. 2?, col. 2: _WELSH RABBIT OR RAREBIT._ _Odd Nicknames Used in Various_ _Climes for Some Common Arti-_ _cles of Food._ Here comes again for the 'strenth time that old question about the Welsh "rabbit" or "rarebit," says the New York Press funny man. In Paris it is "rarebit" on the bills of fare, or its equivalent in French, but our late dictionaries and our astute editors insist that it should be "rabbit." After half a day's search I arrive at the conclusion that it was originally "rare-bit," and that "rabbit" is a modern corruption. I say the highest authorities agree on this, but my editor says they don't, and what he says goes, in this paper. Certain of our lexicographers insist that "rabbit" as applied to cheese and toast, etc., is of jocular origin, but I am not sure that the people of Wales regard cheese thus prepared as their national dish. It is true that we have the "Cape Cod turkey," which is a codfish, and numerous other humorously applied special dishes. The lamb fry is a "mountain oyster," the calf is an "Essex lion," the calf's head is "mock turtle," the cured ham is "Cincinnati chicken," red herrings are "Glasgow magistrates" or "Norfolk capons," the potato is an "Irish apricot," a "Murphy" or a "Munster plum;" the shrimp is a "Gravesend sweetmeat," whisky is "wine of the country" or "hair of the dog," the rump of a fowl is the "pope's," "parson's" or "bishop's nose;" a bowie knife is an "Arkansas toothpick," a railroad porter is a "baggage smasher," a native of Nova Scotia is a "blue-nose," temper is "Irish," to walk is to "take shank's mare," etc. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Dec 28 22:59:43 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 17:59:43 -0500 Subject: Word or Phrase of the Year Message-ID: The time is approaching for the American Dialect Society to select and announce its Word of the Year. This typically is the ADS's one moment in the media sun over the course of the year. I would like to make some suggestions as to how ADS can maximize its annual 15 minutes. 1. ADS should take this opportunity to get a broader message out than simply that the WOTY is SARS or embedded or whatever. I'm not sure what that message should be; I invite response. I suppose in general that it could be about language and linguistics generally, about the role of linguists, or about the role specifically of the ADS; the latter two options seem to me to be the most promising. 2. There should be a spokesperson or spokespeople who have been designated in advance, who are articulate and well-credentialed, and who are available to talk to the media. 3. The WOTY information should be added as promptly as possible to the ADS website. 4. Instead of just Word of the Year, it might be better to say Word or Phrase of the Year, at least if a phrase is in fact the winner. There's a lot of time lost explaining that words also include phrases. John Baker From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 28 23:50:02 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 18:50:02 -0500 Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust In-Reply-To: <9.1f4e903e.2d1f0b1a@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:19 AM -0500 12/27/03, Dale Coye wrote: >Abot the phoneme: I was half-jokingly speculating about the possibility of >analyzing this as a vowel diphthong /iu/, that would take its place beside >/ou/, /au/, and /Uu/. > I guess we all have this as a rising diphthong (as in "beauty"), but not as a falling one. Or vice versa--I can never remember which is which. The one in "eeyuw" or whatever is definitely (for me) bisyllabic; that distinguishes it from the others above. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 28 23:56:04 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 18:56:04 -0500 Subject: Not Chopped Liver (1947); Texas Toast (1960); Ants on a Log (1983) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031227092836.04c321e0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 9:46 AM -0500 12/27/03, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>But your recent antedating of "ball of wax" has destroyed a nice >>theory I had about it. > >My default hypothesis would be that "ball of wax" in this sense originated >as an 'intentional malapropism' for "bailiwick". > >This would be analogous to (and conceivably the model for?) "[mind your >own] beeswax" for "business". > >It would seem that "ball o' wax" was available early enough to be picked up >for the malapropism (with the meaning "shoemaker" ... although the meaning >-- as with "beeswax" -- is presumably of no significance). No etymological >legend about balls of wax is required IMHO. > >-- Doug Wilson Aren't the meanings too different here? Unlike the case of "beeswax", which in the expression "Mind your own ____" really just means 'business', a "bailiwick" is a domain or (in the AHD's term) 'a person's specific area of interest', which isn't at all the same as the whole ball o' wax (the universe, the whole thing, whatever. ('an unspecified set of circumstances'--AHD4) "Bailiwick" is standardly used with the possessive, the person defining the relevant domain, "ball o' wax" isn't. I don't see this as fertile ground for reanalysis. Larry From douglas at NB.NET Mon Dec 29 00:49:12 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 19:49:12 -0500 Subject: Not Chopped Liver (1947); Texas Toast (1960); Ants on a Log (1983) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>My default hypothesis would be that "ball of wax" in this sense originated >>as an 'intentional malapropism' for "bailiwick". >> >>This would be analogous to (and conceivably the model for?) "[mind your >>own] beeswax" for "business". >> >>It would seem that "ball o' wax" was available early enough to be picked up >>for the malapropism (with the meaning "shoemaker" ... although the meaning >>-- as with "beeswax" -- is presumably of no significance). No etymological >>legend about balls of wax is required IMHO. >> >>-- Doug Wilson > >Aren't the meanings too different here? Unlike the case of >"beeswax", which in the expression "Mind your own ____" really just >means 'business', a "bailiwick" is a domain or (in the AHD's term) 'a >person's specific area of interest', which isn't at all the same as >the whole ball o' wax (the universe, the whole thing, whatever. ('an >unspecified set of circumstances'--AHD4) "Bailiwick" is standardly >used with the possessive, the person defining the relevant domain, >"ball o' wax" isn't. I don't see this as fertile ground for >reanalysis. -- Larry The word "beeswax" was first used in place of "business" at some point, for unknown reasons but presumably as an 'intentional malapropism'. The meaning of the word "beeswax" (i.e., wax from a bee) was essentially irrelevant. [Similarly, one might say "horse pistol" for "hospital" (this one I used to hear in my youth, and it appears a few times on the Web).] "Beeswax" did not replace "business" in all environments; I don't think one will hear "he's in the grocery beeswax" etc.: it's only in "mind your own ..." and "none of your ..." (and maybe a few other expressions?). [And why "beeswax"? Why not, say, "bee's knees"? I don't know.] Similarly "ball o' wax" (taken ONLY for its phonetics without any real reference to a ball or to wax) may have replaced "bailiwick" in the single expression "the whole bailiwick" and not in other environments such as "the Judge's bailiwick" etc. I do assume the pre-existence of the expression "the whole bailiwick" = "the whole territory", and the hypothesis would certainly be stronger if this was a common turn of phrase back in 1850 or whenever "whole ball of wax" appeared. "The whole bailiwick" need not have encompassed the entire semantic territory of the modern "whole ball of wax" however; after the replaced word was forgotten one would tend to use the expression as if it referred to something like a ball. "Bailiwick" and even "whole bailiwick" do appear occasionally meaning "[whole] territory", with no possessive, even now. For example search at Amazon.com turns up in a recent Piers Anthony novel ("Split Infinity", 1987, p. 270) the sentence "Better to avoid that whole bailiwick." [and I don't see a 'possessor']. Or: Robert Grossbach (2001), "A Shortage of Engineers" (p. 200): "those are whole other bailiwicks." Look at Popik's 1892 example: "the whole ball of wax" MIGHT refer to "all the girls" (but that's not an application which would be likely today IMHO) but it might also be construed as "the whole country". The 1882 instance which I posted recently has "the whole ball of wax" = "the whole country" as I read it. If we had more early citations it might (or might not, of course) be evident that the early sense of "whole ball of wax" was "whole territory/country" ... much more like "bailiwick". But I don't want to give the impression that I am fervently attached to this hypothesis: it's just the best one I see right now, my "default guess" until something better appears! -- Doug Wilson From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Dec 29 01:08:26 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:08:26 -0500 Subject: Not Chopped Liver (1947); Texas Toast (1960); Ants on a Log (1983) Message-ID: Note that "bailiwick" and "whole ball of wax" are in a sense opposites: "Whole ball of wax," of course, quintessentially denotes completeness. "Bailiwick," on the other hand, is essentially a limiting term, indicating the bounds of a person's jurisdiction. John Baker From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 29 01:42:38 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:42:38 EST Subject: "Best things in life are free" (1917) & more phrases Message-ID: RANDOM HOUSE DICTIONARY OF AMERICA'S POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS by Gergory Titelman second edition New York: Random House 2000 I've mentioned and destroyed much of the work here before. I'll use Newspaperarchive.com to search relevant phrases here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- AS MAINE GOES, SO GOES THE NATION Pg. 14. Titleman has 1888. Something like it was used in 1840. "Nation" has replaced "Union"--again, you have to search for as few words as possible. Hamilton Daily Republican - 9/21/1894 ...KOVK TKfK. [Catholic Telegraph.] "AS MAINE GOES, so GOES the Union" will undoubtedly.....the laughing stock of the entire Country, AS it nearly always h AS been. It wAS not to.....Protective ASsociation is disgraceful AS it is demagogical, and the demand for a.. Hamilton, Ohio Friday, September 21, 1894 690 k Burlington Hawk Eye - 9/17/1874 ...from MAINE? And don't you know that AS MAINE GOES so tho Union? The wires bring us.....on enjoying their rights. The people of MAINE see this, and their glorious vic tory.....to ber home to work for her parents, or GOES away with her to work in a new home of.....Iowa will follow the good ex ample get by MAINE, and when the polls close on the second.. Burlington, Iowa Thursday, September 17, 1874 757 k Decatur Daily Republican - 9/20/1882 ...that direction. POLITICAL NOTES. AS MAINE GOES so GOES the Union. THE Santa Pe New.....remarks on the republican victory in MAINE: There will be two cl ASses of people.....stand; divided we fall.'" The report then GOES on to spea of the perilous situation of.....weeks predicting and hoping for disASter in MAINE. If they could only point to the fact.. Decatur, Illinois Wednesday, September 20, 1882 889 k Trenton Evening Times - 10/23/1896 ...The November Forum will contain: "AS MAINE GOES, so GOES the a trenchant article, by the.....faction will'bave'the (Ontrol of it, AS well AS of all other departments _ of tho.....of partisan sway. This proposal is almost AS bnfl AS aiming a bullet at the flag of our.....Republicau, who hAS become vury conspicuous AS a machine man since Mr. Lauterbacb served.. Trenton, New Jersey Friday, October 23, 1896 789 k Perry Chief - 9/14/1876 ...of at leASt five thousand. "AS MAINE GOES, so GOES the Union." Buch bein; the cASe.....closely followed by the sturdy voters of MAINE, who have spoken in tones that will.....nnd fifty-two minutes. In the Cist round GOES on his knees ncd struck by Allcu, on.....will be in the neighborhood of And thus it GOES . Vermont first sent the country grceticg.. Perry, Iowa Thursday, September 14, 1876 301 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BACK TO SQUARE ONE Pg. 17. Titelman says "early 1960s, but gives no citations. The 1949 citation below is really from 1993! FOR ILLUSTRATION ONLY! DON'T USE IT! Chronicle Telegram - 8/27/1949 ...Methodist Church. Lorain plan goes 'BACK TO SQUARE ONE' Lawrence Budd The Chronicle.....As far as I'm concerned, we're BACK TO SQUARE ONE. However, Metelsky, chairman of.....City Council member TO say the plan goes TO SQUARE ONE. Service DirecTOr Rocky Ortiz.....at Bowling Green State University and was ONE of 40 teachers selected from applicants.. Elyria, Ohio Saturday, August 27, 1949 621 k Post Crescent - 9/3/1967 ...vicTOry TOok the Chinese economy BACK TO SQUARE ONE. All American aid was withdrawn.....and nuclear armament, TO turn BACK TO an agrarian economy. They accordingly.....s According TO internal Chinese estimate, ONE of Stalin's biggest mistakes was failure.....Pof omoc Dick Gregory wants Negroes TO bet BACK at capitalists by boycotting Christmas.. Appleton, Wisconsin Sunday, September 03, 1967 718 k Chronicle Telegram - 4/25/1967 ...Death has brought both nations BACK TO SQUARE ONE in the moon said 'an eminent.....s shattered body was cremated and brought BACK TO Moscow, his home TO wn, TO lie in.....the urn of ashes before it is taken TO Red SQUARE later this week for a hero's funeral.....attempt, planned for a.m., got TO within ONE second of lifTOff when an auTOmatic.. Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, April 25, 1967 668 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BALL IS IN YOUR COURT Pg. 18. Titelman says "mid-twentieth century." Chronicle Telegram - 4/13/1971 ...counterINg the Red ChINa lobby. The BALL IS IN YOUR COURT. eral Mitchell when they say no.....IN 1954 he voted for legal wiretappINg on COURT order. The 57-year-old representative.....crime field. These were INstalled under a COURT order obtaINed under provISions of the.....people technology IS out and nostalgia IS IN. Many are more INterested IN clean.. Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, April 13, 1971 717 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BEHIND EVERY MAN THERE IS A GREAT WOMAN Pg. 20. Titelman's first date here is 1977. Ames Daily Tribune - 2/2/1955 ...Peace' VES.gTHEL, THEM'S A WOMAN BEHIND, EVERY MAN I'VE BEEN BEHIND FRED THAT'S.....an assignment, but much to his liking for BEHIND the scenes and out of the political.....functions held in Washington almost EVERY day. He doesn't have time for them. He.....Added to White House Staff as Idea MAN By PETER ED6ON ..NEA WaiUiifton.. Ames, Iowa Wednesday, February 02, 1955 749 k Bennington Evening Banner - 6/22/1955 ...The Safford Street Sage Says That BEHIND EVERY MAN Who Succeeds There's a WoMAN and.....KING CO. CLEANERS POWNAL A Massachusetts MAN was critically injured and five vehicles.....The Banner this morning that the injured MAN was in a "precarious" condition and just.....righted the car and removed the injured MAN; who was pinned between the car and the.. Bennington, Vermont Wednesday, June 22, 1955 716 k Gettysburg Times - 8/28/1954 ...because he enjoyed it noted that BEHIND EVERY MAN stands a woMAN and introduced Mrs.....to the life, the happiness, the future of EVERY person, EVERY youngster riding, walking.....A steering wheel. And you're my captain. BEHIND me you're the lord and master of a.....And Profit To Our GOOD EVENING A mart MAN dlwhartw duttM promptly and fete rid of.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Saturday, August 28, 1954 956 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- THE BEST THINGS IN LIFE ARE FREE Pg. 23. Titleman says "Originated in the United States in 1927 and usually attributed to Buddy G. De Silva whose song 'The Best Things in Life are Free' became a hit in the Broadway musical _Good News_ (music by Ray Henderson)." Sandusky Star Journal - 11/20/1917 ...the Name of Ireland. Hugh Doaovan. The BEST THINGS IN LIFE ARE FREE Henry Burr. For You a.....that make a man want to up and look his BEST. It tickles us all to make the good old.....you IN a few words. THE NORTH WESTERN TCAL LIFE CO. R. D. KUNZ, Bell 524-K. lies. 193-R.....the time, We've helped many a man look his BEST; we're doINg it every day. We're ready.. Sandusky, Ohio Tuesday, November 20, 1917 434 k 20 November 1917, SANDUSKY STAR-JOURNAL (Sandusky, Ohio), pg. 6, col. 1: _Herman_ Places COLUMBIA GRONOLA RECORDS For December on Sale Today (...) The Best Things in Life Are Free--Henry Burr. (To be continued--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 29 01:48:49 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:48:49 EST Subject: Death Before Dishonor (1875); Rock/Hard Place (1960); Blacker the Berry (1961) Message-ID: This continues an updating of Gregory TItelman's AMERICAN POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS (2000) using Newspaperarchive.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BETTER DEATH THAN DISHONOR Pg. 23. Titelman has 1931. Decatur Daily Review - 3/25/1931 ...quashed. tions, "The Godless Girt" "DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR." and Tammany Plans WOODMEN.....crime wave in which two men were shot to DEATH and another wounded. The primary.....JJ survey enaction taken on the "just "BEFORE "he" start of each 0{ the 10i000.....grounds. aboard the Arizona this mornin? BEFORE the party disembarked for Bloomington.. Decatur, Illinois Wednesday, March 25, 1931 643 k Ohio Democrat - 4/26/1883 ...by compliiining to the monitor. No. DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR. This is nn extreme example.....full often find this out -a their sorrow as DEATH seizes upon them. Had they been wise in.....I have kept my promise, Miss said Arkwood BEFORE she had time to spenk; now, with your.....he marked G. M. D., not the Gristly Monster DEATH, whlah he so long had dreaded, but.. New Philadelphia, Ohio Thursday, April 26, 1883 1371 k Reno Evening Gazette - 6/29/1922 ...are with us in this great struggle. 'DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR being an unchanging principle.. Reno, Nevada Thursday, June 29, 1922 599 k Denton Journal - 3/31/1906 ...which read "My load is too heavy. DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR. My benefit in the I. 0. H.....about 4 o'clock Sunday morning. DEATH was due to paralysis, with which he was.....well known in this county having practiced BEFORE our court for more than a quarter of a.....circumstances surrounding Judge Urown's DEATH were particularly suil, and its.. Denton, Maryland Saturday, March 31, 1906 840 k Gettysburg Times - 12/5/1929 ...in the door and meekly surrendered. "DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR" Tattooed on his arm he wore.....the legend, "DEATH BEFORE and the namesof "Jack "Frank.....at 7 p. m. Unknown. Hunter Blamed For DEATH HIGHWAY (Continued from First Page.....Mrs. Rasmus Saby spoke on "Hospitality" BEFORE the Business and [ndustrial Girls club.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Thursday, December 05, 1929 929 k Hamilton Guidon - 1/28/1875 ...have upheld the deed. It was DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR, and killing which was no.....and picked up by our devil. feelings by the DEATH cf him Nvho did him the terrible wrong.....on: but we fea: it will be a long time BEFORE another editor of that concern goes to.....Now the infamous wretch richly deserved DEATH ; yet we would ratlier that the father.. Hamilton, Ohio Thursday, January 28, 1875 745 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE Pg. 25. Titelman's first citation is 1984. Now used for "Iraq." Indiana Evening Gazette - 11/9/1960 ...hound dog. he should get himself hunt up BETWEEN A ROCK And A hArd plAce, there's.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, November 09, 1960 575 k Panola Watchman - 7/7/1960 ...is known As .qonM And they kmdA put :elks BETWEEN A ROCK And A hArd plAce If you dont.. Carthage, Texas Thursday, July 07, 1960 429 k New York Daily Times - 8/2/1854 ...the following Accident there. to drive teAm BETWEEN A ROCK on the kill And thicliff.....is composed of Pulpit ROCK of slAte; CAsth, ROCK And Egg ROCK of compAct fiqdspAr. LIN.....elifin, if only to see End where yeA cAn or BETWEEN the (l mAy b my nnmemns coves And.....Icy end the posed to Icehug And irritA tmn BETWEEN tile Enghsh And AmericAn mArroe.. New York, New York Wednesday, August 02, 1854 744 k Reno Evening Gazette - 9/10/1923 ...toppling over. HAycrAft wAs ciuislit BETWEEN A ROCK And the side of the cA r.. Reno, Nevada Monday, September 10, 1923 700 k Times Recorder - 7/5/1950 ...or definite. Riddle WhAt's the difference BETWEEN A ROCK-pile conx-ict And A jigsAw.....lArger, broAder And more fArflung conflict BETWEEN the two worlds Nnhody believes thAt.. Zanesville, Ohio Wednesday, July 05, 1950 718 k Council Bluffs Nonpareil - 9/3/1951 ...with injuries suffered in A collision BETWEEN A ROCK IslAnd DES MOINES IP The 1951.....the 38t'.i pArAllel, old politicAf boundAry BETWEEN North And South KoreA. Ftontllne Tour.....Army heAdquArters, OKLAHOMA ROCKET The ROCK IslA nd's OklAhomA ROCKet, southbound.....wArd bound movement yet to come. FAtA lities BETWEEN 6 p. m. Fifth HurricAne Churns.. Council Bluffs, Iowa Monday, September 03, 1951 790 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- THE BLACKER THE BERRY, THE SWEETER THE JUICE Pg. 29. Titleman's first citation is 1984. Titelman says "Berries are best when they are ripe. ... It is often applied to black women." OT: So I'm in the doctor's office getting my typhoid bills for Ghana, and out of nowhere he says "It's Africa, so there's no sex." Stevens Point Daily Journal - 6/10/1965 ...and proclaimed, "THE blacker THE berry, THE SWEETER THE JUICE." THE world heavyweight.....circuit That was THE end of THE lynx and THE start of THE fire which nearly destroyed.....of THE 1965 civil rights struggle and THE first stop on THE tour. THE newsmen were.....in THE Illinois Synod. Since THE move meant THE loss .of about 51 million annually to THE.. Stevens Point, Wisconsin Thursday, June 10, 1965 599 k Times Recorder - 6/2/1961 ...cry out. and. THE blacker THE berry, THE SWEETER THE JUICE.' Even THE Negro churches.....it is THE hole cards that often count THE most and determine who wins THE hand. THE.....Lane TEN YEARS AGO THE mercury topped THE 90 degree mark as THE first heal wave of.....to sit in THE United Nations, THE equals of THE THEy'll Do It Evervtimc British, THE.. Zanesville, Ohio Friday, June 02, 1961 746 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SIZE DOESN'T MATTER/COUNT Titelman doesn't have this, but while my mind is on the topic and before I forget, here it is. Fred Shapiro once asked about this phrase. There's not much here in your family newspaper. Evening Telegram - 12/30/1918 ...village library or i town hall; the SIZE DOESN'T MATTER, but the preservation of the.....relic does MATTER. today, barely emerging from, the war.....war souvenirs and study Frencli lansic. No MATTER gmaii B'Teoch home, there is a taWe.. Elyria, Ohio Monday, December 30, 1918 882 k Charleston Daily Mail - 7/13/1937 ...up to buying gear for comfort first SIZE DOESN'T MATTER so long as it is the right.. Charleston, West Virginia Tuesday, July 13, 1937 618 k 13 July 1937, CHARLESTON DAILY MAIL (Charleston, West Virginia), pg.9, col. 7: Corns and callouses are less in evidence, not only because chiropodists are kept busier but because women have learned their foot lore, have become educated up to buying foot gear for comfort first...sixe doesn't matter so long as it is the right size. Zanesville Signal - 6/6/1947 ...group; recitations, "A True Rita 'SIZE DOESN'T COUNT." Douglas T i Miss Miller Bride.....x all ttxre it to it. If tke -my bottle DOESN'T the implr. iott bulky and hdp dnder.. Zanesville, Ohio Friday, June 06, 1947 784 k Newark Advocate - 12/20/1932 ...adrift upon Doubtful world -Washington SIZE DOESN'T COUNT. Said rny wife a.s she tried on.. Newark, Ohio Tuesday, December 20, 1932 701 k 20 December 1932, NEWARK ADVOCATE (Newark, Ohio), pg. 4, col. 6: _Where Size Doesn't Count._ Said my wife as she tried on her little new hat, "It cost only 30 plunks, isn't it nice?" I answered, "Mine's three times the size, dear, of that And cost merely a fractional part of that price!" Waukesha Daily Freeman - 5/24/1948 ...with the southern coal producers. SIZE DOESN'T COUNT Scooter Driver Is Fined When.. Waukesha, Wisconsin Monday, May 24, 1948 740 k Waterloo Daily Courier - 11/14/1948 ...BIG Power When you've got the power, SIZE DOESN'T COUNT. And with Courier Classified.. Waterloo, Iowa Sunday, November 14, 1948 944 k Gazette - 7/31/1912 ...and knocked him off a scaffold. SIZE DOESN'T COUNT if you can choose your own.....were: Restrictions as to the least SIZE of yachts which could safely be.. Stevens Point, Wisconsin Wednesday, July 31, 1912 815 k (To be continued) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 29 02:26:53 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 21:26:53 EST Subject: The Buck Stops Here (1946); Make a Federal Case (1951) Message-ID: THE BUCK STOPS HERE This appears to be before President Truman used it. Statesville Record - 6/15/1946 ...Kerr'? in Oklahoma City. It reads: "The BUCK STOPS HERE." Governor Kerr's secretary.....said that meant when the BUCK was passec a! around until it reached.....congregation, and he joined tbt church HERE some year? ago. is a nephew of Rev. S. L.....rela-j Those of all denominations are tives HERE. AROUND CAPITOL SQUARE cordially invited.. Statesville, North Carolina Saturday, June 15, 1946 776 k 15 June 1946, STATESVILLE DAILY RECORD (Statesville, NC), pg. 2, col. 2: BUCK--Somebody in North Carolina ought to have a sign like that on Governor Robert Kerr's desk in Oklahoma City. It reads: "The Buck Stops Here." Governor Kerr's secretary said that meant when the buck was passed all around until it reached the governor he had nowhere to pass it and so he had to handle the matter. No state official wants to take the initiative in prosecuting election law violations. These financial reports offer a case in point. The law requires them to be filed with the secretary of state in statewide or district campaigns, with the clerk of court in county races, and obligation is imposed upon these officials to get the reports in. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MAKE A FEDERAL CASE OF IT On December 4th, Fred Shapiro posted: The phrase "make a federal case out of it" is not in OED or HDAS. The earliest that has been found for this, I believe, is a 1955 _Time_citation in Merriam-Webster's files. I have found the following on ProQuest: 1952 _N.Y. Times_ 6 Apr. X1 But we won't make a Federal case of it; thepoint is that "Singin' in the Rain" kids an era and a style offilm-production about as well as it has ever been done. Fred Shapiro Another good sign--the first citation is again from the comics! Nashua Telegraph - 5/11/1951 ...Are jn trouble. They chose to MAKE A FederAl cAse out of it." Improved modern.....vAcAtioning SECOND (IRTIODRLBflllK MEMBER FEDERAL DEPOSIT INSURANCE CORPORATION.....ht wAs not IsgAily Who pAys his oosts in A cAse of thAt kind? A NSW1ER: InsurKncs CompAny.. Nashua, New Hampshire Friday, May 11, 1951 718 k 11 May 1951, NASHUA TELEGRAPH (Naashua, New Hampshire), pg. 14, col.6: Newspaper columnist says that "no wonder the Red Chinese are in trouble. They chose to make a federal case out of it." Edwardsville Intelligencer - 12/12/1951 ...So two And two equAls four let's not MAKE A federAl cAse out of "Why is the boss AlwAys.....his mAil? get promoted I'll wipe out these MAKE IT LOOK LIKE coweoy ow A PUT COUPLA EARS.....beings 14 LiterAry bltf 15 Terror 17 MAKE 18 Exist 19 It Is In Greece 29 Fruit 11.. Edwardsville, Illinois Wednesday, December 12, 1951 632 k Sheboygan Press Telegram - 4/28/1951 ...SO NOUVE FOUND SOME OLD IN KITS CANT MAKE A FEDERAL. CASE OF MAYBE I CAN STEVE.' HERE.....TEAMS WILL THIWK I GOT AWFUL SPEEP AM' MAKE ME A OFFER.' SUCH AWFUL CONTROL. OFFSET.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Saturday, April 28, 1951 767 k 28 April 1951, SHEBOYGAN PRESS (Sheboygan, WIsconsin). pg. 14, col. 2 ("STEVE ROPER" comic, first panel): OKAY VANCE--SO YOU'VE FOUND SOME OLD EAR RINGS IN KIT'S DESK!...YOU CAN'T MAKE A FEDERAL CASE OUT OF THAT! Reno Evening Gazette - 12/12/1951 ...So two And two equAls four let's not MAKE A federAl cAse out of it.....THEY'LL DO IT EVERY TIME By Jimmy HAtlo If MAKE fT LOOK LI KB A COWBOY OW A HORSE.' PUT.....Homlin WHEwT HE'5 REACHING FOB ALTITUDE TO MAKE THAT DBWT IN MY PLA YMATE'S ANOTHER pA'j.. Reno, Nevada Wednesday, December 12, 1951 735 k East Liverpool Review - 7/14/1951 ...color video, sAy so, but do not 'MAKE A federAl cAse out of it, with hArA ngue.....is cAse they lAck color, Are Asked not to MAKE Any effort to Acquire it? We will serve.....70-billion-doilAr budget. Conceding thAt federAl employees do not get rich At their.....love it. don't get hystericAl, And pleAse MAKE your endorsement end before midnight. We.. East Liverpool, Ohio Saturday, July 14, 1951 614 k (To be continued. So many phrases--so little time!) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Dec 29 02:34:32 2003 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:34:32 -0600 Subject: "His cake is all 'dough'" (1860)--Query Message-ID: The 19th century baseball discussion group (part of SABR, i.e., Society for American Baseball Research) received a message last month containing an 1860 baseball poem in which the last line is: "He's sure to be put out, and his cake is all 'dough'." What does this last clause mean? Gerald Cohen >At 4:43 PM +0000 10/28/03, tshieber wrote:: >To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com >Mailing-List: list 19cBB at yahoogroups.com; contact 19cBB-owner at yahoogroups.com >Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:43:41 -0000 >Subject: [19cBB] Re: Early baseball gloves > > >Folks - > Regarding early baseball gloves, I stumbled across a poem >written (recited?) on Christmas Day, 1860. It is entitled "Owe'd 2 >Base Ball: In Three Cant-Oh's!" and I would guess it was written for >and recited at a Christmas Ball thrown by the Mercantile BBC of >Philadelphia. In "Cant-Oh! III" the various players are mentioned >and the following lines appear: > >Then "Bispham" comes next, you'd expect from his looks, >He was given to study, addicted to books, > And you'd little suspect there was much in the man, > Till you saw him at play -- then beat him who can. >His favorite position is on the first base, >And he stands like a statue, always right about face, > With his hands in a pair of thick gloves all encased, > Which never miss holding the ball once embraced. >And I pity the 'batter' who when the ball's fair, >If its short, tries to make the 'first base' when he's there. > The 'batter' itself may be good enough -- though > He's sure to be put out, and his cake is all 'dough.' > > Unless I am much mistaken, this is the earliest known >reference to baseball gloves. It also is the second reference to >baseball gloves being worn in 1860 (see 1887 "National Daily Base >Ball Gazette" reference below). > As an aside, a really neat Mercantile BBC item that can be >viewed on the web is sheet music titled the "Home Run Quick Step" >which was "respectfully dedicated to members of the Mercantile Base >Ball Club." You can see it at: >http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl? >record=027.054.000&pages=5 > Thoughts and comments? > - Tom Shieber From douglas at NB.NET Mon Dec 29 04:30:43 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:30:43 -0500 Subject: Not Chopped Liver (1947); Texas Toast (1960); Ants on a Log (1983) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Whole ball of wax" is possibly a modification of "whole bailiwick" IMHO. I have not addressed "one's ball of wax", which by analogy might be related to "one's bailiwick". In fact, "one's ball of wax" is sometimes used like "one's cup of tea", other times like "one's specialty" -- something like "one's bailiwick" indeed! "Ball of wax" here approximates "thing" ("the whole thing" or "one's thing"). Examples of "my ball of wax" from Google (Groups) (there are plenty more): <> <> <> <> I do not suppose however that this sort of thing has any bearing on the etymology of "[whole] ball of wax". -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 29 04:45:25 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:45:25 EST Subject: "His cake is all 'dough'" (1860)--Query Message-ID: Ohio Repository - 1/12/1853 ...Wood already gored lo dealb. Hia.CAKE IS DOUGH. The old fellow ie: too conservative1.....of the country, which it IS admitted on ALL hands are likely to attao. He idid he.....irching ilx mUls ihat crown In morning cool ALL lh. of II. long away. Now Ih. litter of.....in our national meitopnlIS. Must, perhaps ALL the of our National Leg ialature, have.. Canton, Ohio Wednesday, January 12, 1853 829 k 12 January 1853, OHIO REPOSITORY (Canton, Ohio), pg. 1, col. 5: The great bull fight will come off on Saturday. Governor Wood is already gored to death. His cake is dough. The old fellow is too conservative for the wire pullers.--_Forest City_. Bangor Daily Whig And Courier - 11/7/1843 ...will be pretty sure to wISh her CAKE was DOUGH again. COURIER. JOHNS. 9AYWARD, Editor.....think that it IS their own lot to perform ALL the drudgery, and to be exercISed with.....of the Richmond Enquirer IS engaged -with ALL hIS might in forming political.....m r _. B the mean time wasdepos.ting ALL itcould not hold j object of the.. Bangor, Maine Tuesday, November 07, 1843 655 k 7 November 1843, DAILY WHIG AND COURIER (Bangor, Maine), pg. 2, col. 1: ...that the superanuated old miser who marries a giddy girl, hoping to make a saving in expenditure, will generally find himself wofully mistaken, and the inconsiderate girl who marries without affection or respect, only with the hope of gratifying silly vanity, will be pretty sure to wish her cake was dough again. From douglas at NB.NET Mon Dec 29 04:58:22 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:58:22 -0500 Subject: "His cake is all 'dough'" (1860)--Query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just a speculation. "Dough" = the cake before it becomes a cake. So "his cake is dough" means "his cake is in the making" or "his cake has begun to be prepared". In this case, it means more or less "his doom is sealed". The "all" is a superfluous intensifier, I speculate. -- Doug Wilson From dsgood at VISI.COM Mon Dec 29 05:25:20 2003 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:25:20 -0600 Subject: phishing Message-ID: From Google News (http://news.google.com): Phishing Attacks Soar InternetWeek.com - 2 hours ago E-mail phishing attacks jumped over 400 percent during the holidays, according to an analysis released Wednesday of scams reported to clearinghouse Anti-Phishing.org. 'Phisher' site targets Visa, as holiday scams abound IDG.com Latest 'phishing' scam targets Visa customers ComputerWorld From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 29 08:19:48 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 03:19:48 EST Subject: Don't judge a book by its cover (1894); Whose bread I eat (1921); Guess (1916) Message-ID: DON'T JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER Gregory Titelman's AMERICAN POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS (2002) has: _Don't judge a book by its cover._ Don't judge things by their appearance only. First attested in the journal _American Speech_ (1929). There you go! We coined it! Well, not quite: There are 27,800 Google hits for "Don't judge a book by." Freeborn County Standard - 5/2/1894 ...both for Men And Boys. Never JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER, Or suit of Clothes BY An.....only good butter but good treAtment Also. JUDGE Whytock Appointed Z. K. MAllery, II.....56 to Twist's 25. This report will mAde to JUDGE Whytock who will decide upon the.....hAve been cured BY JApAnese Pile Cure. BY Uriggs Drug Co. The ChicAgo dAily pApers.. Albert Lea, Minnesota Wednesday, May 02, 1894 626 k 2 May 1894, FREEBORN COUNTY STANDARD (Albert Lea, Minnesota), pg. 5?, col. 5: Never Judge a Book by its Cover... A Suit of Clothes by an Ad. News - 9/22/1914 ...Number.. Town of.. You cAn't AlwAys JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER, And you mAy think 'thAt.....City. At the Hotel StrAtton, wAs Joined BY her dAughter. Mrs. Win. BAumgArdncr. They.....fertilizing possibilities of the seA Atid ITS products. An Insight into thwo bllltles.....not only the feAtherA, but the kept cleAn BY neons of the simple device shown with j.. Frederick, Maryland Tuesday, September 22, 1914 564 k Freeborn County Standard - 6/6/1894 ...Almost their weight in gold. Never JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER, A. Suit of Clothes Ad. or.....And As solicitor for orders, the district JUDGE directed the jury to Acquit him, And.....only more thAn tbe smAllest. The form of BOOK is Admitted BY All to be the best in the.....is very heAvy, the bAck And corners of COVER Are leAther And the binding is of the.. Albert Lea, Minnesota Wednesday, June 06, 1894 607 k Democrat And Standard - 4/14/1903 ...THE GEORGIA MINSTRELS. You cAnnot JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER nor A minstrel show BY ITS.....the lAtter being AfterwArds Common PleAs JUDGE. He supplemented his privAte study with.....kings, lAwmAkers, trusts, bill-collectors, BOOK Agents, etc., it is not strAnge then.....of MOlersburg And AfterwArds Common PleAs JUDGE, being Admitted to. the BAr July 6th.. Coshocton, Ohio Tuesday, April 14, 1903 882 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- WHOSE BREAD I EAT, HIS SONG I SING Another food proverb. It pre-dates the Depression. I have a feeling it's even earlier on other databases. There are 589 Google hits for "whose bread I eat." The San Francisco Baking Institute's "Baking Muse" lists it as a "German Proverb." Pg. 369. Titelman's first citation is 1946. Appleton Post Crescent - 1/25/1926 ...Monday. RIch RIchard Says: WHOSE BREAD I EAT, hIs song I sIng'. And those who.....and the ChIcago sanItary dIstrIct, In WHOSE names Mr. Carlstrom's brI ef and.....T saId T was goIng out to get somethIng to EAT. FINDS GIRL UNCONSCI OUS "I was gone about.....to oppose the court. Senator Reed, wIth WHOSE name Klan agItatIon bad been lInked by.. Appleton, Wisconsin Monday, January 25, 1926 879 k 25 January 1926, APPLETON POST-CRESCENT, pg. 1, col. 1 box: Rich Richard Says: WHOSE bread I eat, his song I sing. And those who are sustained by the A-B-C Classified Opportunities are singing a song in praise of Opportunity. Read them today! 22 September 1921, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE (GA), pg. 10, col. 4: The lawyer that is elected governor or to the legislature does not expect to remain there always, he knows that none of these officers are going to furnish permanent means for a livelihood, so while in office serving the people ostensibly, he is looking out for his big businesses for a job. "Whose bread I eat, whose song I sing." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- YOUR GUESS IS AS GOOD AS MINE On Pg. 394, Titelman says "the saying originated in the United States in the 1920s." Decatur Daily Review - 3/17/1930 ...huve, In the lASt 25 years. I wonder? YOUR GUESS IS AS GOOD AS mine. But it surely looks.....women were commenting, AS women do, on how GOOD everything tASted. The host had sampled.....IS K. and whose encouragement, faith and GOOD cheer give a slnglnf strength to the.....Cheyenne and took to All (hIS may be very GOOD and correct wlth the wlld tout folk will.. Decatur, Illinois Monday, March 17, 1930 678 k Fort Wayne News - 2/5/1916 ...and a dynamo T What are you calling "YOUR GUESS IS AS GOOD AS wAS the halt-absent reply.....I once had the pleASure of introducing YOUR GOOD father to my bankers in Chicago? It wAS.....have coal." "Yes; there IS coal, of a sort; GOOD enough for the cement kilns. For power.....with a hack load that I am carrying to thIS GOOD day; that I will probably go on carrying.. Fort Wayne, Indiana Saturday, February 05, 1916 917 k 5 February 1916, FORT WAYNE DAILY NEWS (Fort Wayne, Indiana), pg. 11, col. 3: "Your guess is as good as mine," was the half-absent reply. Lancaster Daily Eagle - 12/6/1927 ...IS invited to participate. YOUR GUESS IS AS GOOD AS the next one. Get YOUR GUESS Cards at.....number of thIS watch or making the nearest GUESS to it will win it On Saturday, Dec.....throws off the cause. S.S.S. IS sold at all GOOD drug stores in two sizes. The. larger.....I suffered from rheumatISm for a GOOD many years. At times my joints would.. Lancaster, Ohio Tuesday, December 06, 1927 795 k Sun Herald - 12/24/1925 ...Make a '1026 GUESS for YOURself; YOUR GUESS IS AS GOOD us anyone's provided YOUR.....and civil aviation development And, for GOOD meASure, there are the row between the.....In public worship It would seem that any GOOD American, Irrespective of race end creed.....Almighty God, who hASt given us thIS GOOD land for our heritage; we humbly beseech.. Lime Springs, Iowa Thursday, December 24, 1925 681 k Bismarck Tribune - 8/29/1917 ...win. be down or up AS the market goes. YOUR GUESS IS AS GOOD a? ours "but we think it.....out. These ASsets will stand (iarfield in GOOD .stead AS admin IStratzest to the.....b.old-( j [aj.Cy A. (lar.tield. who juade GOOD lie eouscuted to try one. its.....the.j clear eyes, ajid expressive moufh j j IS a mind AS vigorous AS hIS body, j I The.. Bismarck, North Dakota Wednesday, August 29, 1917 571 k (To be continued) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 29 08:33:18 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 03:33:18 EST Subject: Whose bread I eat (1859) Message-ID: Yeah, it's much earlier. From MAKING OF AMERICA. Author: Barnard, Henry, 1811-1900. Title: Pestalozzi and Pestalozzianism : life, educational principles, and methods, of John Henry Pestalozzi, with biographical sketches of several of his assistants and disciples / reprinted from the American journal of education ; ed. by Henry Barnard. Publication date: 1859. Collection: Making of America Books Pg. 85: "There is no need of any explanation and no harm done. It is an old proverb, Whose bread I eat, his praise I sing," said the bailiff, and shaking Kriecher by the hand, he said no more upon the subject, but asked the men whether Arner had been angry. Title: The Progressionists, Chapter IV-V Publication Info.: Catholic world. / Volume 15, Issue 90, Sept 1872, pp.766-783 Collection: Making of America Journal Articles Pg. 780: "What the men of money do, is well done, of course, for the proverb says, 'Whose bread I eat, his song I sing.'" From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 29 17:16:21 2003 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:16:21 -0500 Subject: "His cake is all 'dough'" (1860)--Query In-Reply-To: <200312290501.hBT51Lk8003978@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Gerald Cohen wrote: >>> What does this last clause mean? >Then "Bispham" comes next, you'd expect from his looks, >He was given to study, addicted to books, > And you'd little suspect there was much in the man, > Till you saw him at play -- then beat him who can. >His favorite position is on the first base, >And he stands like a statue, always right about face, > With his hands in a pair of thick gloves all encased, > Which never miss holding the ball once embraced. >And I pity the 'batter' who when the ball's fair, >If its short, tries to make the 'first base' when he's there. > The 'batter' itself may be good enough -- though > He's sure to be put out, and his cake is all 'dough.' <<< "Douglas G. Wilson" responded: >>> Just a speculation. "Dough" = the cake before it becomes a cake. So "his cake is dough" means "his cake is in the making" or "his cake has begun to be prepared". In this case, it means more or less "his doom is sealed". The "all" is a superfluous intensifier, I speculate. <<< It's a pun on "'batter'", which is used in quotes twice just before. Merriam-Webster Online distinguishes "batter" from "dough" by ingredients and thickness: >>> batter: 1 a : a mixture consisting chiefly of flour, egg, and milk or water and being thin enough to pour or drop from a spoon dough: 1 : a mixture that consists essentially of flour or meal and a liquid (as milk or water) and is stiff enough to knead or roll <<< AFAIK "batter" is used for lighter baked goods, like cakes and pastries, than "dough", which is used for bread. So if you try to bake a cake out of dough instead of batter, you won't succeed. I don't know how "first base" is meant to figure in the word play. It's in quotes in the last four lines, which are built around the pun, but not in its literal use in line 5 of the quoted section. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 29 17:57:45 2003 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:57:45 -0500 Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust In-Reply-To: <200312290501.hBT51Lk8003978@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Dale Coye writes: >>> In parts of the South they have /ju/ in variation with /iu/ and according to PEAS it used to be a folk pronunciation in NE-Upstate NY, but I believe it has now died out (this is in words like music, due, news in NE). But what's interesting about ee-yoo is that all dialects in the US have added it (at least that's my guess), so we have this diphthong existing in a single lexical item. <<< "ee-yoo" -- IPA [i(j)u] -- is not a diphthong, but a sequence of two vowels, with a glide in between that may be more or less prominent. Segmentally, it's no different from the vowel sequence in "I " or "rnite". Of course exclamations have different prosody from other speech, and may contain "phonemes" not found in the ordinary lexicon. Two well-known examples in American English are the ingressive alveolar click of "tsk, tsk" and the glottal stop that distinguishes the negative "uh-uh" from the positive "uh-huh". If [i(j)u] were a phoneme and we didn't already have it in "reunite" and possibly other words, "eeew" would join this list. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 29 18:48:48 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 13:48:48 -0500 Subject: spelling that exclamation of disgust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:57 PM -0500 12/29/03, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > >"ee-yoo" -- IPA [i(j)u] -- is not a diphthong, but a sequence of two >vowels, with a glide in between that may be more or less prominent. Exactly. That's a bit clearer than my version last night, which stressed the fact that it's bisyllabic while true diphthongs aren't. >Segmentally, it's no different from the vowel sequence in "I " >or "rnite". > >Of course exclamations have different prosody from other speech, and may >contain "phonemes" not found in the ordinary lexicon. Two well-known >examples in American English are the ingressive alveolar click of "tsk, >tsk" also the domal/retroflex click ("whoa!") and lateral click ("giddy-up") used (or so I'm told) to get horses to stop and start respectively. These three clicks correspond to the consonants spelled "c", "q", and "x" in Xhosa. And there's a bilabial click used in some circles for teasing or mocking; Xhosa doesn't use such a click but I think Zulu may. >and the glottal stop that distinguishes the negative "uh-uh" from >the positive "uh-huh". The glottal stop is also crucial in uh-oh. Actually, the positive vs. negative signals (either the oral version or the nasal one, with closed lips) are also distinguished by tone, upstepping in the former and down- in the latter. (For me, using low-high with glottal stop, or high-low without, produces gibberish.) I take it that it's not a coincidence that both "uh-oh" and "uh-uh" (if that's the appropriate spelling)--as well as mh-mh (or whatever), i.e. the closed-mouth version of the denial indicator--involve both a glottal stop and a downward tonal sequence, while the affirmatives have no glottal stop and an upward sequence. larry From douglas at NB.NET Tue Dec 30 00:56:32 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:56:32 -0500 Subject: "His cake is all 'dough'" (1860)--Query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmmm, stupid me, I neglected to look in the standard references. Under "dough" (1.b.) in the OED, under "cake" in HDAS, under "cake" in the Century Dictionary (1889): "One's cake is [all] dough" = "One's project has failed". Used by Shakespeare pre-1600. Still used ca. 1900. Forgotten now? -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 30 04:28:43 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:28:43 -0500 Subject: F.T.L. (and "baby boomeranger") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:20 PM -0500 12/22/03, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >(And I only knew it as "faster than light".) > >>>From the NY Times: > > >>> > >December 22, 2003 >For More People in 20's and 30's, Home Is Where the Parents Are >By TAMAR LEWIN > > [...] > >Nancy Dye, president of Oberlin College, said that whereas most graduates >used to go straight on to graduate school, having chosen at least a >preliminary career path, many now stick around, uncertain of their >direction. A few years ago, she said, "students came up with a new term, >F.T.L. failure to launch." > >In interviews with dozens of 20-somethings, most say they share a sense >that there is no right time to have completed their education, lived on >their own or gotten married, that such fixed expectations have no place in >their lives. And many see it as beneficial to step slowly and gradually >into adult life. > In response to which a couple wrote this letter to the editor today: ============ To the Editor: Regarding your Dec. 22 news article about the "transitional adults" living with their parents, it seems that the baby boomers have raised a generation of baby boomerangers! Having raised six children, none of whom now live at home, we suddenly feel very lucky. DANIEL R. SZEKELY DEBORAH L. GORDON Anchorage, Dec. 22, 2003 ============ --There are a lot of cites for "baby boomerang", actually, but I don't see any offhand with the relevant meaning, and none at all for "baby boomeranger". L From douglas at NB.NET Tue Dec 30 04:37:47 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:37:47 -0500 Subject: F.T.L. (and "baby boomeranger") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >--There are a lot of cites for "baby boomerang", actually, but I >don't see any offhand with the relevant meaning, and none at all for >"baby boomeranger". > >L "Boomerang baby" is more usual, maybe. Mentioned here for example: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/08/wordwatch.htm -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 30 05:15:46 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 00:15:46 -0500 Subject: F.T.L. (and "baby boomeranger") In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031229233609.04a37400@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >>--There are a lot of cites for "baby boomerang", actually, but I >>don't see any offhand with the relevant meaning, and none at all for >>"baby boomeranger". >> >>L > >"Boomerang baby" is more usual, maybe. Mentioned here for example: > >http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/08/wordwatch.htm > >-- Doug Wilson Ah yes, but that doesn't play off "baby boomer" the way the letter-writers' version does. L From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 30 05:40:58 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 00:40:58 EST Subject: Southern by grace of God (1987); South rise (1949); Us chickens (1937) Message-ID: AMERICAN BY BIRTH, SOUTHERN BY THE GRACE OF GOD Who said it? The AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS (1997) doesn't have it. I don't know what Fred has. (LIBRARY OF CONGRESS) Southern by the grace of God [sound recording] : Lynyrd Skynyrd tribute tour, 1987. Universal City, Calif. : MCA, p1988. 1 sound disc : digital, stereo. ; 4 3/4 in. (CATNYP) Title Southern by the grace of God / Michael Andrew Grissom. Imprint Nashville, Tenn. (P.O. Box 158766, Nashville 37215) : Rebel Press, c1988 (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Gettysburg Times - 3/9/1988 ...raised: "American BY birth, SOUTHERN BY THE GRACE OF GOD." I was SOUTHE RN-raised but not.....born; SOUTHERN, that is, BY accident OF my parents.....sitting beside a slab OF country ham. SOUTHERN THEologians will tell you that THE .....to dig up. And THEy eat snails. Except in SOUTHERN France, OF course, where THEy.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Wednesday, March 09, 1988 602 k 9 March 1988, GETTYSBURG TIMES (Gettysburg, Pennsylvania), pg. 3A, col. 1: _"Aigs," grits and snails_ By T. W. BURGER There's an expression popular in the South where I was raised: "American by birth, Southern by the grace of God." (AUGUSTA ARCHIVES) 29 June 1989, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE (GA), pg. 7, col. 1: You've heard the phrase, "American by birth, Southern by the grace of God." (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... A common bumper sticker in the South is: American by birth Southern by the grace of God The South likes being part of the Union as much as the North likes ... talk.politics.mideast - Sep 14, 1990 by cms at dragon.uucp ... birth... Communications Hardware Test and Evaluation | Southern by the | Grace of God | | Opinions don't necessary | reflect my own... ... comp.dcom.modems - Jun 1, 1989 by Jeff Kilpatrick ... sound. This particular Morse performance is included on the "Southern by the Grace of God" tribute album by Lynyrd Skynyrd. Steve ... rec.music.misc - Apr 8, 1989 by Jim Greenlee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SSOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN ADS-L has had this post: >> If the Ancestry.com jockeys (Barry & Sam) are looking for things to search> on that database, here are nine sayings for which I would be interested in> whether Ancestry has anything earlier than the dates indicated:>> The butler did it (anything before 1938)> Not tonight, Josephine (anything before 1911)> In God we trust; all others pay cash (anything before 1890)> May you live in interesting times (anything before 1939)> The South will rise again (anything before 1950)> Defeat from the jaws of victory (anything before 1891)> Meanwhile, back at the ranch (anything before 1944)> There's nobody here but us chickens (anything before 1963)> Close, but no cigar (anything before 1935)>> >> Fred Shapiro And this answer: Subject: South still not rising over at ancestry "Nothing on ancestry.com from 1910-1952 for "The South will rise again." (AUGUSTA ARCHIVES) 16 February 1956, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, Pg. 1, col. 3: _South has already risen!_ By Lloyd Parker People who have continually said, "The South will rise again," shouldn't change tgheir line. The South has already risen! (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Berkshire Evening Eagle - 12/6/1950 ...of SOUTHern solidarity. "The SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN" has had a flurry among orchestras.....there is no cluinceja fad. but. the Oltl SOUTH is now in 'if making them understand I.....and a violin concerto. In 19.10 and I AGAIN in 1914 he visited the United His last.....taciturn. Confederate Flag Fad Sweeping Old SOUTH can. bo done only through music." And.. Pittsfield, Massachusetts Wednesday, December 06, 1950 676 k Reno Evening Gazette - 9/17/1949 ...Confederate Money, Boys, the SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN." This song is delivered with.....never fight on foreign soil AGAIN. But the SOUTH Is beginning lo feel pretty cocky about.....afford some indication to the temper of the SOUTH. The gong Is called, with charming.....und upset curs all ai'ound, all around. The SOUTH all thp terrific fuss that was ntlrrod.. Reno, Nevada Saturday, September 17, 1949 794 k 17 September 1949, RENO EVENING GAZETTE (Reno, Nevada), pg. 4, col.6: _--Bob Ruark_ _It's a Wonderfil Life_ ATLANTA, Sept. 17.--There is a very popular song down here these days, whcih may afford some indication to the temper of the south. The song is called, with charming directness: "Save Your Confederate Money, Boys, the South Will Rise Again." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- "AIN'T NOBODY HERE BUT US CHICKENS" ADS-L has seen this post: ""Ain't Nobody Here But Us Chickens," written by Joan Whitney and Alex Kramer, was recorded by Louis Jordan on 6-26-46, according to the liner notes to The Best of Louis Jordan. John Baker And this post: "Fred, Nothing on 'Nobody here 'cept us chickens.' from 1963-1930. I'll do this one back to the 1880's as it sounds like it should be older. Sam (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Edwardsville Intelligencer - 12/23/1937 ...of 'Who's replied: "There's nojody here BUT US CHICKENS, boss." Nojody knew that she had.....sang out instantly, There's nobody here BUT US shoes." One day she was singing as she.....you. That is import ant. Most of you expect US to be good looking, BUT on that score we.....to make love to US the first time you take US out Not becaUSe we have BUT becaUSe it is.. Edwardsville, Illinois Thursday, December 23, 1937 678 k Indiana Evening Gazette - 12/15/1937 ...of "Who's replied: "There's nobody here BUT US CHICKENS, boss." Nobody knew that she had.....sang out instantly. "There's nobody here BUT US shoes." One day she was singing as she.....colors are the thint: for country wear, BUT not elsewhere. 8. Don't wear your clothes.....beHave there is somebody in this cupboard." BUT the stowaway.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, December 15, 1937 789 k 15 December 1937, INDIANA EVENING GAZETTE (Indiana, Pennsylvania), pg. 10, col. 3: _Your Children_ By OLIVE ROBERTS BARTON (...) _Surprising Memories_ Deedie had heard the story, perhaps months before, of the chicken thief who, to the owner's demand of "Who's there?" replied: "There's nobody here...but us chickens, boss." Nobody knew that she had understood. Besides all those weeks had elapsed. One day she hid in the closet. Her mother went about pretending to hunt. "Where's Deedie?" Finally she winked at me and said, "I do believe there is somebody in this cupboard." But the stowaway sang out instantly, "There's nobody here but us shoes." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 30 07:15:37 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:15:37 EST Subject: "Bad publicity" (1931) & "Spell my name right" (1928) Message-ID: My apologies again for the errors in the thumbnails. I copy directly from the scrambled material provided. Apologies again for the spelling errors I added in the last post. You see, they're supposed to have twelve judges, and they have six, and there are over 200 people waiting after the place has officially closed, and it's twelve hours nonstop again of parking tickets, and I work again tomorrow, and the again next day... Maybe in my spare time each day at 5 a.m. I can write a Food Dictionary. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BAD PUBLICITY See "bad publicity" in the ADS-L archives, from 2001. It's listed as "a case for Fred Shapiro." Fred Shapiro responded with this: All right, here's my response. This is the earliest example I have of the"publicity" saying:1950 Hortense Powdermaker _Hollywood the Dream Factory_ 241 The Hollywoodproverb that "The only bad publicity is no publicity" would seem to haveconsiderable truth behind it, even if publicity alone is not generallysufficient to make a star. Fred Shapiro Then, Fred Shapiro added this: I previously posted a response about "the only bad publicity is nopublicity" and similar phrases. Subsequently, I have come across thefollowing in Brewer's Quotations:"ALL PUBLICITY IS GOOD PUBLICITY. An almost proverbial saying, which I first heard in the 1960s but which isprobably as old as the public relations industry. Alternative formsinclude: 'There's no such thing as bad publicity', 'There's no such thingas over-exposure -- only bad exposure', 'Don't read it -- measure it' and'I don't care what the papers say about me as long as they spell my nameright'. The latter saying has been attributed to the American Tammanyleader 'Big Tim' Sullivan. Concise Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs includes it in the form 'Anypublicity is good publicity' but finds no example before 1974. However,in Dominic Behan's _My Brother Brendan_ (1965), the Irish playwright isquoted as saying: 'There is no such thing as bad publicty except your own obituary.' And James Agee in _Ego_ 7 (for 19 February 1944) quotes ArnoldBennett, 'All praise is good', and adds: 'I suppose the same could be saidabout publicity.'" Fred Shapiro Then, George Thompson added this: In January of 2001 I set off a train of discussion among us regardingthe antiquity of the expression "There's no such thing as bad publicity". I then had only a very recent citation to contribute ,along with the statement that I had heard it or variants of it at onetime or another in the past, going back to the mid-1960s. Fred Shapiro was able to produce a version from 1950 and a passage from 1943 that seemed to allude to it. Others also chipped in. I can now contribute this inversion of the phrase, from 1934: Without publicity it is doubtful if Alphonse Capone ever would havebeen sent to prison. It is axiomatic among all intelligent criminalsthat all publicity is bad publicity. Stanley Walker, City Editor, N.Y.: Frederick A. Stokes, 1934, p. 31. This is one of those expressions that are so highly variable in formthat they are very difficult to trace. I associate it with showbusiness, and in that racket, publicity is always good, but theexpression can be phrased either as an affirmative or anegative: "there's no such thing as bad publicity" (or a variant) asopposed to "all publicity is good publicity"/"every knock is a boost"(or variants). In criminal circles, publicity = heat, and heat isalways bad. GAT (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Daily Northwestern - 7/14/1931 ...York the saying is, "NO PUBLICITY is BAD PUBLICITY. Anything else is fine." Madam.....are d-awn out. Acids and cause of pain, BAD odors. itching, burning and are destroyed.....Had a Word for i the assumption being, NO doubt. that the lattrr title was more.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Tuesday, July 14, 1931 544 k 14 July 1931, DAILY NORTHWESTERN (Oshkosh, Wisconsin), pg. 5, col. 4: _My New York_ By James Aswell (...) And, curiously, customers brave choking dust and precariously poised bricks to dart from limousines into their ship. In New York the saying is, "No publicity is bad publicity. Anything else is fine." Daily Northwestern - 9/19/1931 ...do NOt lack Ingenuity. NO PUBLICITY is BAD PUBLICITY. That is the cardinal presumption.....of times year An ambitious wooer of PUBLICITY got in touch with one of Mr.....they ousted him they meant just that and NO "maybe" either. NO longer is "Tommy" the.....portrayed as slightly ridiculous, It makes NO difference. The lineage is achieved. The.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Saturday, September 19, 1931 782 k 9 September 1931, DAILY NORTHWESTERN (Oshkosh, WIsconsin), pg. 9, col. 2: _My New York_ By James Aswell New York--The fevered operations of Manhattan press agents are a source of perpetual amusement, admiration and dismay to the observer. The brides of ballyhoo lack humor, but they do not lack ingenuity. No publicity is bad publicity. That is the cardinal presumption; and if clients are portrayed as slightly ridiculous, it makes no difference. The lineage is achieved. The scrapbooks bulge. This is a characteristic episode which undoubtedly occurs, with variations, thousands of times a year. Lethbridge Herald - 5/5/1954 ...don't appreciate the fact thai even BAD PUBLICITY is better NO PUBLICITY. 3Snd you, I.....course, with NO thanks being necessary: the BAD PUBLICITY is NOt expected, and of course.....heaven the moment it feels it is receiving' BAD PUBLICITY or a raw deal. In short, the.....if it weren't for the tons of free PUBLICITY they receive from news papers radio.. Great Bend Daily Tribune - 11/13/1961 ...adage: "The only thing worse than BAD PUBLICITY is no PUBLICITY at all." It could.....institution has come in for a peck of BAD PUBLICITY, it has reaped a bushel of good.....project. It seems that things got so BAD in Nevada that on the Halloween of 1946 a.....the training school hospital more favorable PUBLICITY than it has ever before enjoyed. Dr.. Times Recorder - 12/2/1973 ...play, he said, "because no PUBLICITY is BAD PUBLICITY, and what the hell, you're going to.....with Etleen Heckart 'You know I did a BAD western with Martene Dietricfe once.. Zanesville, Ohio Sunday, December 02, 1973 602 k Fond Du Lac Reporter - 4/8/1976 ...belief that for an entertainment act, BAD PUBLICITY is better than NO PUBLICITY.....to each of the three performances. Sounds BAD snuffed aster Time for family get.....response from Mercury-PhoNOgram Records' PUBLICITY department regarding the Ohio.....SCHNEIDER ORCHESTRA SATURDAY APRIL 10th NO COVER CHARGE FREE BEER P ACK E D 10 PIECE.. Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin Thursday, April 08, 1976 435 k Gettysburg Times - 3/29/1990 ...Barry also saidhe didn'tbelieve that BAD PUBLICITY was better than no PUBLICITY. By.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Thursday, March 29, 1990 768 k Chronicle Telegram - 7/12/1995 ...the adage that there's no such thing as BAD PUBLICITY when it reported that more than.. Elyria, Ohio Wednesday, July 12, 1995 575k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SPELL YOUR NAME RIGHT In the 2001 "It's a case for Fred Shapiro" post, George Thompson added this: I find in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, 5th ed., 1999 and theOxford Dictionary of Phrase, Saying and Quotation, 1997, the samecitation, attributed to Brendan Behan: all publicity is good publicity, except your own obituary. I think that this is obviously Behan's elaboration of a previously familiar expression. The ODQ further dates the idea to the early 20th century. The 1986 edition of Partridge's Dictionary of Catchphrases gives it with the concluding qualification "so long as they spell your name right" anddates it to the mid 1930s. This is the form familiar to me.Hamilton's Dictionary of Canadian Quotations cites a minor-league Canadian politician as expressing the idea without using either canonical formulation. He says, in effect, that since people only read the headlines in the newspaper, the trick is to get your name mentioned, and whether the reference in favorable or otherwise inimmaterial. I well remember that a prizefight promoter from Boston,who staged well club fights in Portland, Maine in the late 1960s expressed the thought in another formulation: every knock is a boost.(I was living in Portland at the time, attended most of the fightshows, and read this in the Portland Press-Herald.) How early can this be dated? GAT (WWW,NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Fort Wayne Sentinel - 3/22/1895 ...can you do for me? Why 'ou can SPELL MY NAME RIGHT in you. account of MY death.' 'The.....who ever afte; took pains to SPELL his NAME RIGHT, and that's what I want you to do.....have been able to give this law, MY im pression and it is but a vague im.....of tho magical growth of egion nndor the SPELL of nu enchanter's In 1 380 the great.. Fort Wayne, Indiana Friday, March 22, 1895 876 k Edwardsville Intelligencer - 10/18/1928 ...if you must this old gray beard but SPELL MY NAME RIGHT on. the casualty list. t t.....to give them now and little, else to do, MY daughters all are women grown, MY sons as.....Even though you are not suffering from a SPELL o ay fever at present, you can often.....of ficials and interested property owners, RIGHT of way fo construction of route ICO.. Edwardsville, Illinois Thursday, October 18, 1928 620 k 18 October 1928, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville, Illinois), pg.4, col. 6: Shoot if you must this old, gray beard--but spell my name right on the casualty list. Charleston Daily Mail - 12/2/1934 ...O. K., shoot. I don't mind but please SPELL MY NAME RIGHT I'm Jack Benny and not Jack.....impressions oC arid some of the things MY work. i I was not thrilled at MY first.....in broadcasting 1 feel about to New NAME of Trio Doesn't Fool Fans Gertrude.....before he is satisfied with the result. His RIGHT hand assistant in these long sessions.. Charleston, West Virginia Sunday, December 02, 1934 1177 k 2 December 1934, CHARLESTON DAILY MAIL (Charleston, West Virginia), pg. 10, col. 4: "Oh that's O. K., shoot. I don't mind but please spell my name right--I'm Jack Benny and not Jack Denny of orchestra 'ennys. Get it right. Benny--B, as in Bean Soup--E, as in Sharkee, the fighter--N, as in Knickers--another N, as in pneumonia and Y, as in the state of Yoming." Reno Evening Gazette - 3/21/1950 ...America say abovrt me so long as they SPELL MY NAME RIGHT. Others on Time's were Sen.....party. I am flattered that he considers MY opposition worthy of his attention. I don.....Monday on a charge of falsifying her NAME and address on. doctor's prescriptions.....campaign to the 3950 program. Shown left to RIGHT are Miss Marion Barfknecht, physical.. Reno, Nevada Tuesday, March 21, 1950 752 k Nevada State Journal - 8/30/1958 ...say about you as long as they SPELL YOUR NAME RIGHT. The book Jane came across was not.....the owner wrote in his book was his own NAME and the NAMEs and addresses of his.....area. Crash Yidim Held RE-ELECT AS YOUR Fish Game Commissioner REWARD For.....those little books you passed among YOUR friends back when you were in grade.. Reno, Nevada Saturday, August 30, 1958 710 k 30 August 1958, NEVADA STATE JOURNAL, pg. 3, col. 3: What appeared to evade the grasp of the school authorities was the fact many more "slam books" were initiated by the slamee himself as a sort of Gallup Poll-in-the-rough, the idea being a grammar school version of the adult concept of it doesn't matter what they say about you as long as they spell your name right. Newark Advocate - 2/13/1959 ...York, used to say: "As -long as they SPELL MY NAME RIGHT they can say anything about me.....reads, roughly from left to RIGHT, with MY good friend Holmes playing deep RIGHT.....up his daily newspaper, secretly hopes his NAME will be favorably mentioned by one or.....Alexander may appear at the conclusion of MY says a distinguished Senator. Thus do the.. Newark, Ohio Friday, February 13, 1959 666 k Coshocton Tribune - 3/24/1976 ...they write, as long as thfcy SPELL YOUR NAME RIGHT. Hays gets furious ujben he sees.....his NAME misSPELLed. It sometimes is printed.....his CB microphone: parking lot, you got YOUR ears Later, in his Capitol office.....a Hays speech. replied Hays, at YOUR peril. Gross sat down. was a great he.. Coshocton, Ohio Wednesday, March 24, 1976 542 k Chronicle Telegram - 10/3/1995 ...bad to her. Hey, as long as they SPELL YOUR NAME RIGHT, RIGHT? Doing the RIGHT thing.....judge ruled Friday that the rapper real NAME Calvin Broadus must wear an electronic.....think that has been on video before, you're RIGHT. It was released in 1988 for a short.....can talk to about never being mentioned in YOUR magazine again? I'm serious bad or the.. Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, October 03, 1995 515 k From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Dec 30 07:23:51 2003 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:23:51 -0500 Subject: turkey=three strikes in a row in bowling Message-ID: I went bowling with my brothers over the holidays. I threw three strikes in a row(in an otherwise poor showing). The digital display showed a turkey. So, where and when did this term originate in the bowling sense? M-W gets a pass as they cite it as meaning #3. OED doesn't care, if I read it right. I almost give up on using Ancestry. Sam Clements From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 30 07:44:10 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:44:10 EST Subject: "Don't sweat the small stuff" (1964) Message-ID: More "sweat the small stuff." These are the four earliest hits. Again, a comic balloon is first! CAUTION: Again, the "1949" hit here is actually from "1993." DON'T USE IT! (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Coshocton Tribune - 12/22/1975 ...Junior you'd better learn not to SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF. Save your anger for THE major.....and can be confined to a backyard or a SMALL amount of acreage. Carmody said worms.....of THE lind wood. THE top tier in THE pyramids hold THE nativity scene and THE.....to remove THE pan from THE burner or turn THE unit off at THE end of THE cooking period.. Coshocton, Ohio Monday, December 22, 1975 756 k Gettysburg Times - 5/4/1979 ...with letting THEm have it. Don't SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF, Honey. How young is too young.....THE Ringling broTHErs. A dozen or so of THE museum's 27 buildings are THE very ones.....letter. NOW I know THE best solution is THE following: Tell Ed you will no longer be.....mail system, slows up delivery and costs THE senders very little. When THE junk is.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Friday, May 04, 1979 462 k Indiana Evening Gazette - 11/5/1964 ...FOR WHAT AND DID UK.E THEY "DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF" RUSTY.'-. BE WfflENT WITH FOR.....talks .with THE Russians. This will be THE first time in this generation, at least.....firms. Among THE passenger ships are THE Leonardo da Vinci and THE Cristoforo.....to "revitalize THE visit probably would be THE Republican party in THE between March and.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, November 05, 1964 786 k 5 November 1964, INDIANA EVENING GAZETTE (Indiana, Pennsylvania), pg. 28, col. 5 (The name of the comic isn't here. It appears to be signed by Ernst Saunders. "Mary Worth" was written by John Saunders and Kenneth Ernest--ed.): DISTRAUGHT WOMAN: OH, JIM!...I DESPISE MYSELF!...FOR WHAT I SAID...AND DID! MAN: IT'S OKAY HONEY!...LIKE THEY SAY..."DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF" Chronicle Telegram - 6/11/1949 ...squabbling, let party honchos SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF, use your emotional clout to sell.....lower taxes, bogus optimism and nice, SMALL wars. You can detect Gergen's efforts.....that THE new highway should follow 'THE eastern route, locating it on THE Elyria.....Route 113. It also would reduce THE cost of THE industrial parkway Elyria will build to.. Elyria, Ohio Saturday, June 11, 1949 519 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 30 09:03:54 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 04:03:54 EST Subject: Food of/for the Gods (1911); Heavenly Hash (1893) Message-ID: A heavenly re-check with the new search engine. "Food of/for the Gods" and "Heavenly Hash" both go well with nun's tummies and the bishop's nose. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FOOD OF/FOR THE GODS I used "dates" as an additional keyword. My earliest had been 1914. Sikeston Herald - 12/23/1948 ...in Asia centuries ago and was called FOOD OF THE GODS. THE round little filbert.....uncertain, for methods OF keeping track OF DATES during THE era when Christ was born.....and THEre was no money in THE house for FOOD. So, she ga THEred THE cones and sold.....by our modern methods OF keeping track OF DATES, would be 7 B. C. Thus, Christ's birth.. Sikeston, Missouri Thursday, December 23, 1948 591 k Indianapolis Star - 4/12/1911 ...Indianapolis. FOOD OF THE GODS. One-pound OF Engllshpwamuts half p6und OF DATES.....crumbs and sugar, THEn add THE walnuts and DATES and THE eggs Well beaten. Pour THE.....cupfuls flottr, seeded ralglny one cupful DATES, one teaspoonful OF soda, .two.....City and John Clements OF Richmond will THE last OF THE week to be THE house guests.. Indianapolis, Indiana Wednesday, April 12, 1911 914 k 12 April 1911, INDIANAPOLIS STAR (IND), pg. 9?, col. 5: FOOD OF THE GODS. One pound of English walnuts and one-half of dates, chopped; two cupfuls of sugar, ten tablespoonfuls of cracjer crumbs, two teaspoonfuls of baking powder, one-half dozen eggs. Mix baking powder with the crumbs and sugar, then add the walnuts and dates and the eggs well beaten. Pour the mixture in a pan abouttwo inches in depth, that has been well greased and floured and bake one-half-hour. When cold serve with whipped cream. MRS. BENJAMIN SCOTT. Clayton, Ind. Appleton Post Crescent - 10/16/1937 ...sandwich and an Ice cream soda arc THE FOOD OF THE GODS. i How cruel, THE n, to.....For yardages sec patterns. havc will have DATES.. lustrated stcp-by-stcp sewing Andif.....are in every particular table setting, FOOD, and women's dresses exactly THE same.....st.reetsn I plainly size, name, address and DATES nice style number boyp> thc-v havc thcm.. Appleton, Wisconsin Saturday, October 16, 1937 854 k Star And Sentinel - 5/13/1916 ...an appeal for good laughter, which is THE FOOD OF THE GODS. A wise man has warned us to.....OF THE National Guard OF Pennsylvania, DATES and locations OF camps wera announced.....require THE asilstance OF available plant FOOD if THEy to produce large yields OF high.....T. "SOUGH OX A rrverusement. PLACES AND DATES FOR N. G. P. ENCAMPMENTS Gettysburg Not.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Saturday, May 13, 1916 860 k Chronicle Telegram - 2/28/1933 ...R. D. No. 1, La Grange, Ohio. FOOD FOR THE GODS 3-4 cup nut meats 3-4 cup DATES yolks of.....is Clark commented. cold outside, and THE FOOD inside is at least regular. I'd raTHEr.....18 ounces graham crackers 1 dozen DATES 1 can crushed pineapple (20-oz. Break.....E. M. KNOWLES. Elyria, 0., R. D. 1. AXGEL FOOD CAKE 1 1-2 cups egg whites. 1 1-2 cups.. Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, February 28, 1933 793 k Sheboygan Press - 2/22/1929 ...bake in a slow oven FOR three hours. FOOD FOR THE GODS Six eggs 2 cups granulated sugar.....powder, pound nut meats, Vi pound stoned DATES, few grains salt, 1 teaspoon vanilla.....THE diet Authority explains thin delicious FOOD Wi: V.'KCKN ri.Y .iskcd THE FOOD.....Chop nuts and DATES, Mix and sift sugar and baking powder.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, February 22, 1929 620 k Daily Review - 2/8/1914 ...dense and THEre is corn bread which is fit FOOD FOR THE GODS. Of course this bulletin.....bread; corn meal muffins; corn muffins with DATES; custard corn corn meal soft corn bread.....of encouragingTHE ITSO at corn human FOOD THE United States department of.....to Bulletin Ho. which tells about corn as a FOOD FOR pigs. With plenty of both corn meal.. Decatur, Illinois Sunday, February 08, 1914 442 k Daily Northwestern - 2/29/1928 ...freight train, witnesses said. FOOD FOR THE GODS. Two cups sugar, one cup DATES j of pork.....Agatay was killed and THE thre'e members of THE insurgent group were arrested FOR THE.....when THE POEMS THAT LIVE THE SE, THE sea THE sea THE open sea THE blue, THE fresh, THE.....with >4 yard of contrasting j material FOR facing on collar and cuffs. THE of THE.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Wednesday, February 29, 1928 898 k Newark Advocate - 2/23/1929 ...tatoes, teamed spinach, whole wheat bread, "FOOD FOR THE GODS." milk, tea. Stuffed pork.....bit. THE house has a chaperone who buys THE FOOD THE girls order when THEir classes.....that raTHEr looks as if THE mills of THE GODS had thlng to do about THE matter, after.....THEy pay THE same room rent, but save on FOOD, laundry and oTHEr extras. Eight.. Newark, Ohio Saturday, February 23, 1929 829 k Indianapolis Star - 9/10/1922 ...is celestial, olympian, ambrosial, truly a FOOD FOR THE GODS. Its ingredients are.....and cities. THE history of bridge building DATES from THE most ancient races known to.....entirely without her allotted portion -of FOOD, which had to-be served to THE unwelcome.....Washington street bridge, THE city paid FOR three spans while THE county paid FOR THE.. Indianapolis, Indiana Sunday, September 10, 1922 1276 k Stevens Point Daily Journal - 10/2/1915 ...London MailCorn as FOOD. Corn is really a FOOD FOR THE GODS. In nutritive value it is.....3 per cent as much protein. Much of THE FOOD value of wheat is sacrificed in.....couldn't cook, she broke dishes, she wasted FOOD, she wasn't neat, and she was Impudent 1.....from THE only exit of THE cave and skirted THE souTHErn wall of THE range, looking FOR.. Stevens Point, Wisconsin Saturday, October 02, 1915 708 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- HEAVENLY HASH A little bit more of heaven. See the archives, where it is described as "new" in 1893. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Daily Review - 1/27/1893 ...author. .....02 An unruly member...... 03 HEAVENLY HASH......... 10 Uncommon edibles.. Decatur, Illinois Friday, January 27, 1893 499 k 27 January 1893, DAILY REVIEW (Decatur, Illinois), pg. 8?, col. 1: CONUNDRUM SUPPER. The following is the menu for the conundrum supper, given by the ladies of the M. E. church at the residence of Rev. Davis Thursday evening: All things to all men...05 A distinguished author...02 An unruly member...03 Heavenly hash...10 Uncommon edibles...05 Tabby's party...01 Fruit of the vine..02 Picklets...01 Young man's sweetheart...04 Impertinence...02 Boston's overthrow...03 A cold vowel...05 Spring's offering...01 Staff of life...01 Stevens Point Daily Journal - 9/7/1896 ...Watch his window for the latest. What is HEAVENLY HASH Judge Cats was in Milwaukee.. Stevens Point, Wisconsin Monday, September 07, 1896 487 k 7 September 1896, STEVENS POINT DAILY JOURNAL (Stevens Point, Wisconsin), pg. 4?, col. 3: Chewing candies--cream, molasses and chocolate--all first-class, and plantation drops at the M. H. Chase home made candy store. Watch his window for the latest. What is heavenly hash? From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 30 13:46:59 2003 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 08:46:59 -0500 Subject: Death Before Dishonor (1875); Rock/Hard Place (1960); Blacker the Berry (1961) In-Reply-To: <7e.44073595.2d20e201@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE > > Pg. 25. Titelman's first citation is 1984. Now used for "Iraq." Note that OED has this back to 1921. Keep up the great work on phrases, Barry! Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 30 16:31:55 2003 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 11:31:55 -0500 Subject: From the NY Times Message-ID: >From the N.Y. Times "Metropolitan Diary" column, Monday, 2003-12-29, p. B2 Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company Dear Diary: My wife and I were standing in line, waiting to be seated in a delicatessen in the Washington area. A woman approached me and asked, "Are you on line?" I responded: "Oh, you must be from New York. In this area we would say `Are you in line?" "No," she replied. "I'm from Philadelphia. If I were from New York, I would just have cut in front of you." Lee Sigelman From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 30 19:27:47 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 14:27:47 -0500 Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates Message-ID: In this pre-WOTY season, I thought there might be some interest in a compilation of items provided by students in my undergraduate Structure and History of English Words class, extracted from the NEW-Js (New English Word Journals) I had them compile. Some of these appear in published lexicons, others don't (and maybe shouldn't). A number of them of course are blends, including the ubiquitous _metrosexual_ and _recoc(k)ulous_ as well as the older-hat _hasbian_ ('ex-lesbian') and _faux-hawk_ ('imitation mohawk haircut', as discussed on the list a while back), and also... _flexitarian_ 'a vegetarian who makes exceptions for special occasions' _manscaping_ (apparently big on "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy") _metrodox_ 'modern orthodox Jew' _tomacco_ (apparently first appeared in the Simpsons, but has since been formulated in the real world, as a hybrid/graft of a tomato plant onto tobacco roots; it bore fruit but unfortunately was almost certainly poisonous) _pharming_ 'producing medically active substances through creation of transgenic plants or animals' _egosurf_ 'to try to find references to oneself in search engines', e.g. to autogoogle _celebutante_ (popularized by the TV show "The Simple Life") _carcoon_ (a car with the comforts of home built in) _cankles_ (what fat people have instead of distinct calves and ankles, from "Shallow Hal") _craptacular_ (what it sounds like) Some current slang terms with which I was unfamiliar: _(to be/get) moded_ 'mocked, made an ass of' _nonner_ 'one who doesn't x', for some contextually salient x _duppie_ 'depressed urban professional' _sketch_ 'a sketchy, suspicious or shady character' _gank_ 'filch', as in "I'm gonna gank some of your fries" [origin?] _punk_ (v.) 'to pull a prank on someone pretentious', apparently from an MTV show _brick_ (adj.) 'very cold' (of weather) One student cited (as non-current slang) _Gettysburg address_ as an early 1900's term for 'grand slam', which it would have predated; the allusion is of course to "four score". (I did find this on one web site.) Another pointed out _scrip_, medical jargon for "prescription" that isn't yet listed in a number of dictionaries (although I'm sure it is in others). One mentioned _algoreithm_, a cutesy Republican coinage circa Nov. 2000, defined as 'any method of calculation performed repeatedly until a desired result is obtained'--I must have missed this at the time. More seriously, someone else volunteered triarchic, as applied to a particular theory of consciousness or intelligence; evidently not listed in the usual sources, although it's been around for a while. An inevitable retronym: _outernet_ (for books, magazines, and other non-electronic media). And a new retronymic sense of _extracellular_ 'pertaining to the world outside one's cell-phone conversation'. And finally, in no particular order, some entries from the why-didn't-hold-off-until-the-instructor's-kids-are-out-of-college department... _'motential_ ("He's straight, but he's got 'motential") _pomosexual_ (yup, post-modern, with irrelevant boundaries between fuzzy categories) _heteroflexible_ vs. _homoflexible_ (with the prefix apparently designating where one is coming from) _cooter-booter_ ('a woman who interferes with another woman's flirtation efforts', based on the well-established cock-block) _(get some) neck_ (converse of "give head") _skeet_ 'ejaculate' _homo-hop_ ('gay-based hip-hop', as opposed to the earlier blend with "sock hop") _cliteracy_ 'familiarity with a woman's sexual needs' _moobs_ 'bulbous male pectoral region' (presumably requiring a manzeer or bro, as proposed some time ago on Seinfeld) _bridesman_, _groomsmaid_ (for nonconventionally-gendered members of the wedding) _lacrosstitute, puck fuck_ (for groupies of the respective male athletic teams) _DILF_ 'dad I'd like to fuck' (as evaluated by female undergraduates during Parents' Weekend, based on well-established MILF) _dipthong_ 'low-cut woman's undergarment' _jelq, jelqing_ (eponym? acronym? African or Arabic-derived, as web sites suggest? --a genericized trade-name for a penis enlargement exercise device) ...and, on the basis of the earlier Yale (and elsewhere?) slang item _sexile_, _sincarcerated_ ('trapped in inner room of walk-through double by roommate and significant other') _sexit_ ("The new couple discreetly sexited the party") Larry From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Tue Dec 30 19:38:21 2003 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight, MLIS) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 11:38:21 -0800 Subject: turkey=three strikes in a row in bowling In-Reply-To: <000501c3cea5$e10f2e20$7627a618@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: Maybe a start (maybe a waste of ADS-L bandwidth?): The Johns Hopkins Newsletter, Nov 18, 1999 http://www.jhu.edu/~newslett/11-18-99/Quiz/ ...what is the origin of the term "turkey" in bowling? Rumor has it that the phrase originated in the meat-packing plants of Chicago. Around Christmas time, workers gathered in the long corridors for semi-illicit after-hours bowl-a-ramas. Winners were given prize turkeys to take home for their holiday dinners. This tradition led to the present-day term "turkey" in bowling. It describes a particularly successful feat. (Dubious, I'd say.) Ancestry.com Evening Bulletin (Decatur, Illinois) > 1896 > December > 26 [Sorry, couldn't make out the page number] Bowled for Game. Pleasant Pastimes at the Turner Hall Christmas Day. Several Gentlemen of the Turner society had a bowling match at the Turner bowing alley on Christmas day. Three turkeys, four ducks and two geese were purchased and put up for prizes for the best bowling. Geo. L_tzenberger, two duck and one turkey; Tony Walser one turkey and one goose, and F. W. Kipp won one goose. From another rr.com subscriber... http://home.kc.rr.com/lions/knowwhat.htm ...There is no recorded derivation of this term but Chuck Pezzana, the historian of the Professional Bowlers Association offers a likely origin. During the Great Depression of the 1930s many bowling alleys began to hold sweepstakes events during the holiday seasons of Thanksgiving and Christmas offering food as gifts to the winners. The common award for bowling three strikes in a row was a live turkey. If a person accomplished this feat his or her teammates would all shout, "turkey!" letting the proprietor know that the prize had been won. ... (Didn't find a history page at pba.org.) Slightly OT. From Wikipedia Turkey bowling, in which the participants throw frozen turkeys along the aisles of supermarkets to knock down 2-litre soft drink bottles, is not a sanctioned sport. Definitely OT. While looking in Ancestry.com for 'meatpacker bowling', a _Wash Tubs_ cartoon popped up with the line "What's the matter Ick? You're pale as a meatpacker's tombstone!" Meatpacker's tombstone? -jk At 11:23 PM 12/29/03, Sam Clements wrote: >I went bowling with my brothers over the holidays. I threw three strikes in >a row(in an otherwise poor showing). The digital display showed a turkey. > >So, where and when did this term originate in the bowling sense? M-W gets a >pass as they cite it as meaning #3. OED doesn't care, if I read it right. > >I almost give up on using Ancestry. > >Sam Clements From douglas at NB.NET Tue Dec 30 23:45:25 2003 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:45:25 -0500 Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >_gank_ 'filch', as in "I'm gonna gank some of your fries" [origin?] I believe it's probably an abbreviated form of "gangster" (transitive verb), which of course is often pronounced "gankster". "Gangster" basically = "take by intimidation", I suppose (picture the gangsters swaggering in and eating all the fries ... nobody's got the nerve to object), or more generally just "take"/"grab". Here is this transitive verb "gangster" on the Web: <<"When we lost in Los Angeles in seven games in 1988, Bill Laimbeer and I went into the Lakers' locker room and gangstered a bottle of their champagne and we sat in our shower and bawled our eyes out, because we thought we were the better team and should have won. And we vowed to each other the next year we were going to win it.">> http://www.hoophall.com/features/isiah_thomas.htm -- Doug Wilson From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 31 00:10:43 2003 From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 16:10:43 -0800 Subject: "adVERsary"? Message-ID: I had the following question from someone I know at Microsoft. I've never heard the "adVERsary" pron, and the OED gives only a version with first-syllable stress. Is this simply a mistake, or what? Geoff Nunberg > >I've noticed a strange phenomenon in the crypto community. When >describing cryptographic protocols, it seems that most people in the >field talk about adVERsaries. I first heard this from non-native >English speakers, so I just took it to be a mispronunciation. But I >then started hearing native-born Americans saying adVERsary too. I >guessed that Americans started imitating some influential foreigner or >foreigners in the field. When asked, many Americans seem to think >that adVERsary is simply a British pronunciation. My inquiries have >turned up Brits who claim that this is the standard British >pronunciation, and ones who say they've never heard anything but >ADversary. Ditto for Aussies. I've checked about eight dictionaries >and none has given any pronunciation except ADversary. Do you know >what the story is? From pds at VISI.COM Wed Dec 31 00:34:29 2003 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:34:29 -0600 Subject: turkey=three strikes in a row in bowling In-Reply-To: <20031230194533.F09446515@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: James Knight doesn't endorse the explanations he quotes, and for a good reason. Rolling a turkey isn't so very hard to do. A bowler with an average as low as, say, 150 is almost certain to roll at least one turkey in a series of three games. Even a gutter-baller like me has a fair chance in an evening's worth of bowling. --Tom Kysilko At 12/30/2003 11:38 AM -0800, James Knight, MLIS wrote: >offering food as gifts to the winners. The common award for bowling three >strikes in a row was a live turkey. If a person accomplished this feat his >or her teammates would all shout, "turkey!" letting the proprietor know >that the prize had been won. ... Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 31 02:00:31 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:00:31 -0500 Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031230183100.046d35d0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 6:45 PM -0500 12/30/03, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>_gank_ 'filch', as in "I'm gonna gank some of your fries" [origin?] > >I believe it's probably an abbreviated form of "gangster" (transitive >verb), which of course is often pronounced "gankster". > >"Gangster" basically = "take by intimidation", I suppose (picture the >gangsters swaggering in and eating all the fries ... nobody's got the nerve >to object), or more generally just "take"/"grab". > >Here is this transitive verb "gangster" on the Web: > ><<"When we lost in Los Angeles in seven games in 1988, Bill Laimbeer and I >went into the Lakers' locker room and gangstered a bottle of their >champagne and we sat in our shower and bawled our eyes out, because we >thought we were the better team and should have won. And we vowed to each >other the next year we were going to win it.">> > >http://www.hoophall.com/features/isiah_thomas.htm > Thanks--that certainly makes sense. Nice quote from the Piston Bad Boys too, and of course by the next year they did get the champagne without needing to gank it. Curiously, no "gangster" verb appears in RHHDAS (any more than "gank"), although there are noun meanings for 'enemy aircraft' and 'marijuana/joint' ("some good gangster"). larry From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Wed Dec 31 02:19:47 2003 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:19:47 -0500 Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates Message-ID: Some slang words here, with the statement that gank was first used in the 1990s. No citations provided. http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22gank%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=30&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1997&selm=beth-2212971626520001%40user-38lcpao.dialup.mindspring.com&rnum=1 As used in a note discussing a starwars game: http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22gank%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=30&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1997&selm=4scn5i%24f51%40news.cis.okstate.edu&rnum=6 Merely F.Y.I., if you are looking for such information. George Cole Shippensburg University From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 31 02:58:03 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:58:03 EST Subject: Black & White & Read All Over (1880); French Dip Sandwich Message-ID: BLACK & WHITE & READ ALL OVER In the "Newsstands" section of the "Annual Manual" in this week's VILLAGE VOICE, December 31, 2003-January 6, 2004: http://villagevoice.com/issues/0353/amcotts.php Black and white and read all over Where is a dating for this good old Americanism? OED? HDAS? CDS? Fred Shapiro? It's not in the "newspaper" section of the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS. I learned about the phrase/saying from a Dixie Riddle Cup. Could it really be as old as 1880? )WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Marion Daily Star - 5/21/1880 ...morning. THE STAR ii BLACK and WHITE and READ ALL OVER. STKAWSEP.BIE8 at Green 'a, to.....BK'O. have a full variety of Straw Hats, ALL sizes and ALL prices, from 15c. to JOSEPH.....where he bails from is elicited. THE famous BLACK red bird, the pride of our city, no.....Tg-tf FOUND, at this office, a babr's WHITE sun bonnet a wliito linen sood goods.. 21 May 1880, MARION STAR (Marion, Ohio), pg. 4?, col. 1: THE STAR is black and white and read all over. Appleton Post Crescent - 7/12/1924 ...OVER The old conundrum whch asked. "What Is BLACK and WHITE, and READ ALL seems to have.....Just fe wbrief minutes and it is READ ALL OVER. Tou'll like the easy and quick.....and vicinity. Opportunities down in BLACK and WHITE, accurately Indexed and.....This section is. of a certainty, READ ALL OVER by an the prudent people of Appleton.. Appleton, Wisconsin Saturday, July 12, 1924 855 k Appleton Post Crescent - 4/21/1927 ...Chicago. ____________ BLACK and WHITE-And READ ALL OVER Tlie old conundrum which asked.....Wliat Is BLACK 'and WHITE, and READ ALL seems to have been.....This section is, oC a certainty, READ ALL OVER by ALL tho_ prudent people -of Appleton.....Tel. 3345 irALLy n 110 E. CoHtgo Ave. OVER i BLACK Inquire of William rtition. ?a.. Appleton, Wisconsin Thursday, April 21, 1927 989 k Council Bluffs Nonpareil - 2/17/1953 ...Automobiles For WHAT'S BLACK and WHITE and RED ALL OVER? It's not a newspaper It's your.....the i right to accept or reject any and ALL offers so submitted. ALL offew not.....FAMILY BUDGET f it's plain as BLACK and WH1TK lhat you can't buy a new car.....nroiulway Phone S980 KRESHLY dressed, smALL WHITE TURKEYS. Also DUCKS ft OEESE. Lloyd.. Council Bluffs, Iowa Tuesday, February 17, 1953 701 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FRENCH DIP SANDWICH I keep looking for a definitive article in the historical LOS ANGELES TIMES on the "French Dip Sandwich." Meanwhile, there's Robert Sietsema in this week's VILLAGE VOICE. http://villagevoice.com/issues/0353/sietsema.php Counter Culture by Robert Sietsema Dip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah A damp beef sandwich stirs controversy in downtown L.A. December 31, 2003 - January 6, 2004 Philippe, the Original 1001 North Alameda Street, Los Angeles 213.628.3781 Cole's P.E. Buffet 118 East 6th Street, Los Angeles 213.622.4090 Everyone agrees that the soggy beef sandwich called French dip first appeared in downtown Los Angeles nearly a century ago. What causes consternation is the nagging question of who invented it. A pair of competing institutions claim credit, each offering a different story. Philippe, the Original occupies spacious corner premises just north of Union Station, featuring sawdust on the floor, long communal tables flanked by high stools, and a line of countergals in starched beige uniforms, who wear surreal brown hats that nestle in their hair like birds. A pair of free parking lots makes it easy for tourists, Dodgers fans, and food writers to zip in and out, and the walls are plastered with accolades from periodicals. As its story goes, founder and French native Philippe Mathieu was preparing one of his popular beef sandwiches in 1918 when he dropped the bread into the broth. The customer, a cop, wanted the sandwich anyway, and the next day he returned with a bunch of chums, all of whom demanded the "French dipped" sandwich. They called it French?according to the restaurant's website?because of the founder's nationality, the kind of roll the sandwich came on, or the policeman's patronymic. Unbelievably, he was named Officer French. Cole's P.E. Buffet enjoys a less salubrious location. When it was founded in 1908 as a bar catering to riders at a nearby streetcar terminal (P.E. stands for Pacific Electric), it was situated in a prime downtown area. Now the neighborhood is a cheesy wholesale hub that the city evasively calls the Toy District, combining elements of a bustling Mexican border town with a world-class skid row. Cole's reminds you of a Blarney Stone?a subterranean Hibernian dive where late in the afternoon the intrepid customers are more likely to be hoisting pints of stout than beef sandwiches. In fact, the eponymous buffet is by then a horror show of desiccated stuffed peppers and crusted-over mac and cheese. As Cole's tells the story, one day soon after the place opened, an old codger came in and, complaining of weak gums, asked the chef to dip his bun in meat juices to soften it. Soon everyone was asking for a "dip sandwich." The French part was ostensibly added by customers to designate the type of bread. This story rings true, partly because French bread had been recently introduced into this country, causing quite a sensation. Back at Philippe's, the sandwiches ($4.40) are assembled from pre-sliced and portion-controlled beef. Though the meat is cardboardy and gray, the crusty bun and fierce horseradish mustard partly redeem the assemblage. When I ordered the competing Cole's French dip ($5.39) the same afternoon, a chef with the pe llucid skin and pale demeanor of a saint in a medieval painting had to be summoned from a back room. He yanked a brisket from the steam cabinet and hand carved pieces of irregular thickness, oozing juices and still faintly pink in the middle. Then he dipped each side of the roll in broth using a stubby silver fork. Alongside the overstuffed sandwich he tendered a plastic cup of condiment compounded of dill cucumber chips and short yellow chiles in their combined pickle juices. Before I even took the first bite, I could predict the result: Cole's kicks Philippe's ass. Another conclusion?there's nothing French about this sandwich but the bread. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) (Cites before 1950--ed.) Zanesville Signal - 9/16/1949 ...1 of catd imat ana' 1 tlics of ai filling. DIP SANDWICH into a mixture of 1 slightly and.....with boy I" gfocfie fa FRENCH MEATWICH Make SANDWICH of 2 of bread.. Zanesville, Ohio Friday, September 16, 1949 1124 k Council Bluffs Iowa Nonpareil - 4/6/1948 ...seasoned leftover moat, cut in half and DIP SANDWICH halves in beaten egg diluted.....is possible to bake. GOOD AK FRENCH FRIED SANDWICH make a SANDWICH with highly.. Council Bluffs, Iowa Tuesday, April 06, 1948 669 k Chillicothe Constitution Tribune - 9/24/1937 ...the cheese. Beat egg, add milk and salt. DIP SANDWICH in mixture 1 fry in butter and.....crusts from the bread, spread and make a SANDWICH with.....2 pounds DRIED BEEF 27c 25c 25c SWIFT'S SANDWICH SPRI SWIFT'S LONGHORN CHEESE.. Chillicothe, Missouri Friday, September 24, 1937 614 k Reno Evening Gazette - 2/6/1946 ...CHILI BOWL Home of the Original French DIPPED SANDWICH Make the Chili Bowl Your Goal.. Reno, Nevada Wednesday, February 06, 1946 643 k Reno Evening Gazette - 2/9/1946 ...a CHILI BOWL Home of the Original French DIPPED SANDWICH Make the Chili Bowl Your Goal.. Reno, Nevada Saturday, February 09, 1946 854 k Reno Evening Gazette - 2/4/1946 ...CHI LI BOWL Home of the Original French DIPPED SANDWICH Make the Chili Bowl Your Goal.. Reno, Nevada Monday, February 04, 1946 643 k 4 February 1946, RENO EVENING GAZETTE (Reno, Nevada), pg. 6, cols. 5-6 ad: CHILI BOWL Home of the Original French Dipped Sandwich Make the Chili Bowl Your Goal! We proudly claime the original Old-time Tamale wrapped in corn shuck. What a meal smothered with that good homemade chili! Try Our Snappy Free Delivery Service Always Open--As Near as Your Telephone PHONE 8739 243 LAKE STREET Reno Evening Gazette - 2/5/1946 ...CHILI BOWL Home of Original French DIPPED SANDWICH Make the Chili Bowl Your Goal.. Reno, Nevada Tuesday, February 05, 1946 654 k Reno Evening Gazette - 2/7/1946 ...CHI LI BOWL Home of the Original French DIPPED SANDWICH Make the Chill Bowl Your Goal.. Reno, Nevada Thursday, February 07, 1946 603 k From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Dec 31 03:06:36 2003 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:06:36 -0500 Subject: Black & White & Read All Over (1880) In-Reply-To: <140.1fafff81.2d23953b@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >BLACK & WHITE & READ ALL OVER > > Could it really be as old as 1880? Sounds right to me. I have heard it all my life, and it sounded old as the hills the first time I heard it. (And I had not even seen any hills yet.) Bethany From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 31 03:46:26 2003 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:46:26 -0500 Subject: instructions Message-ID: For the Micro Innovations 4-in-1 Stylus Pen: >>> TO USE: 1. In order to properly select the function of this pen, you must hold the pen horizontally flat (perpendicular to the ground). Note: This pen uses gravity to determine its function. <<< Words fail me. (They certainly failed this writer! or vice versa.) -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 31 05:04:01 2003 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:04:01 -0500 Subject: Philippe's French-Dip Sandwich (1951) Message-ID: The first LOS ANGELES TIMES "dip(ped) sandwich" citation is only 1930. Here's the important article--a better-late-than-never 1951. PHILIPPE'S FOUNDER RECALLS BUSY DAYS; Man Who Made First French-Dip Sandwich Sees Restaurant Bearing Name Close Doors Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 27, 1951. p. 27 (1 page) Philippe Mathieu, now 74, whetted a carving knife and his memories yesterday and talked of the times when he sold the best-known meal in Los Angeles for 25 cents. e looked over his shoulder at the years that have passed, and back to the days when crowds lined up outside his place at 500 N. Alameda St. to buy his meals. "Sometimes," he said in his home at 1110 Marion Ave., "the crowds would be so big that people passing would call police, thinking there was a fight going on." _French Dip Sandwich_ Those were the days when he was the poor man's Delmonico, the man who had thrust upon him the trick of devising the first "French-dip sandwich." it was a trick that was to make him a modest fortune. It also was to make him work himself to the brink of the grave. Most people nowadays think of Philippe's as at 354 Allen St., and that's where it was for 26 years. Of course, now it has vanished, one of the victims of the wreckers and the bulldozers which have been sweeping away the relics and memories of yesterday to make way for the Ramona Freeway of tomorrow. Philippe's was several places. All of them have gone the way of the last, as rubble and debris cleared for the path of progress. _From France_ Philippe came from Southern France. At 14 he got his first job in Aix-en-Provence in a small "charcuterie," French for delicatessen store. His pay was his food and care and nothing a week. he went to Algiers and worked as an apprentice cook, again for board and room and nothing a week. At 21 he spent a year in the French army. He had had enough of poor pay. But he worked two more years to get enoug money to come to this country. "This is a wonderful country," he calls it. he came in the steerage, and arrived in Buffalo 10 days after President McKinley was assassinated there. He worked in lumber camps and then in a hotel in Buffalo, where he worked up in 15 months from dishwasher to second cook. _Came Here in 1903_ In 1903 he came to Los Angeles and worked as night chef in the Angelus Hotel, then one of this city's leading hostelries. Five and a half months later he had enough money to go into business for himself. For $150 he bought a delicatessen store at 617 Alameda St. That was his start. "I didn't make much money," he said, "and I worked hard. But I knew I was on the right track." The start of his sandwich business was unintentional. His customers started it. He had a row of open barrels each half-covered with planks. Each barrel contained a different relish--pickled cucumbers, pickled onions. olives and such. (Col. 2--ed.) He sold, of course, French bread. And, also of course, cooked meats. Customers would come in, buy a French roll or a loaf of French bread, borrow a carving knife and slit the bread open, buy meat and make their own sandwiches. "They would have me dip into the barrels for their relishes and every customer would have a sandwich to his own taste," Philippe says. He prospered, but very modestly. But in 1908 he felt the future was secure. He was in love. He married. She was Josephine Chaix and, of course, a Frenchwoman. It was a good marriage. It produced two daughters, Alice and Berthe, and in the later years of Philippe's places, all four worked. They worked like beavers. Alice is now married and has two sons, Philiipe and Andre. Bertha is a cashier in a 7th St. apparel shop. _Starts Restaurant_ In 1908, Philippe decided that since his delicatessen customers seemed to like to eat in his place, a restaurant was the logical thing. He opened one at 300 N. Alameda St. The meals he served there have been the subject of many a reminiscence by Los Angeles oldsters. He served his customers all they could eat plus a pint of what he still describes as "good claret wine" for two-bits. Those were the days when the crowds fairly mobbed him. In those days Philippe was buying 12-ounce loaves of French bread at 40 for a dollar. he paid 4 cents a pint for milk and 13 cents a gallon for wine. _On City Hall Site_ After four years he moved his restaurant to 136-138 N. Spring St. That's where the City Hall now stands. His new restaurant was somewhat more pretentious than the old. It had a three-piece orchestra! And he charged 35 cents for his meals! The restaurant prospered bu Philippe wanted a rest. After a few months he sold out. But he grew restless and went back into business. He and his brother Arbin set up a new delicatessen, this time at 817 N. Alameda St., but in 1916 they separated and Philippe continued in it alone. Business got so good that Philippe needed larger quarters. In 1918 he moved his place to 246 Aliso St. _Sandwich Is Born_ That was where the French-dip sandwich was born. A policeman was one of its creators. As Philippe tells it: "One day a police officer asked me if I would mind splitting one of these large loaves of French bread and filling it with 'some of the delicious roast pork.' I was not too busy, so I said, 'Sure.' Then he asked me to (Col. 3--ed.) 'please cut it in half. I've got a friend outside who can eat it.' Then he asked for some pickles, onions and olives." Philippe charged 35 cents for the works and says that was the start of the "man-size" sandwich. The next day the policeman and his friend returned with several other friends. _Dipped in Gravy_ "Then we started making French-roll sandwiches for those who had smaller appetitites," he says. (To be continued--NYU Library is closing at midnight!) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 31 05:18:39 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:18:39 -0500 Subject: Philippe's French-Dip Sandwich (1951) In-Reply-To: <28CA4984.371BC255.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:04 AM -0500 12/31/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > The first LOS ANGELES TIMES "dip(ped) sandwich" citation is only 1930. > Here's the important article--a better-late-than-never 1951. What puzzled me about this place (which did have a nice old sawdust-on-the-floor character, with wooden floors, pickled eggs and pigs' feet in jars, and such) is why everyone I knew around there in the mid-60s (native Angelenos) pronounced it as if it was "Felipe's". Maybe it's just the local L.A. version of hyperforeignism, given the proportion of Spanish vs. French influence around there. L > > >PHILIPPE'S FOUNDER RECALLS BUSY DAYS; Man Who Made First French-Dip >Sandwich Sees Restaurant Bearing Name Close Doors >Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 27, >1951. p. 27 (1 page) > > Philippe Mathieu, now 74, whetted a carving knife and his >memories yesterday and talked of the times when he sold the >best-known meal in Los Angeles for 25 cents. > e looked over his shoulder at the years that have passed, and >back to the days when crowds lined up outside his place at 500 N. >Alameda St. to buy his meals. > "Sometimes," he said in his home at 1110 Marion Ave., "the crowds >would be so big that people passing would call police, thinking >there was a fight going on." > _French Dip Sandwich_ > Those were the days when he was the poor man's Delmonico, the man >who had thrust upon him the trick of devising the first "French-dip >sandwich." it was a trick that was to make him a modest fortune. >It also was to make him work himself to the brink of the grave. > Most people nowadays think of Philippe's as at 354 Allen St., and >that's where it was for 26 years. Of course, now it has vanished, >one of the victims of the wreckers and the bulldozers which have >been sweeping away the relics and memories of yesterday to make way >for the Ramona Freeway of tomorrow. > Philippe's was several places. All of them have gone the way of >the last, as rubble and debris cleared for the path of progress. > _From France_ > Philippe came from Southern France. At 14 he got his first job >in Aix-en-Provence in a small "charcuterie," French for delicatessen >store. His pay was his food and care and nothing a week. > he went to Algiers and worked as an apprentice cook, again for >board and room and nothing a week. At 21 he spent a year in the >French army. > He had had enough of poor pay. But he worked two more years to >get enoug money to come to this country. > "This is a wonderful country," he calls it. > he came in the steerage, and arrived in Buffalo 10 days after >President McKinley was assassinated there. > He worked in lumber camps and then in a hotel in Buffalo, where >he worked up in 15 months from dishwasher to second cook. > _Came Here in 1903_ > In 1903 he came to Los Angeles and worked as night chef in the >Angelus Hotel, then one of this city's leading hostelries. > Five and a half months later he had enough money to go into >business for himself. For $150 he bought a delicatessen store at >617 Alameda St. > That was his start. > "I didn't make much money," he said, "and I worked hard. But I >knew I was on the right track." > The start of his sandwich business was unintentional. His >customers started it. He had a row of open barrels each >half-covered with planks. Each barrel contained a different >relish--pickled cucumbers, pickled onions. olives and such. >(Col. 2--ed.) > He sold, of course, French bread. And, also of course, cooked >meats. Customers would come in, buy a French roll or a loaf of >French bread, borrow a carving knife and slit the bread open, buy >meat and make their own sandwiches. > "They would have me dip into the barrels for their relishes and >every customer would have a sandwich to his own taste," Philippe >says. > He prospered, but very modestly. But in 1908 he felt the future >was secure. He was in love. He married. She was Josephine Chaix >and, of course, a Frenchwoman. It was a good marriage. It produced >two daughters, Alice and Berthe, and in the later years of >Philippe's places, all four worked. They worked like beavers. >Alice is now married and has two sons, Philiipe and Andre. Bertha >is a cashier in a 7th St. apparel shop. > _Starts Restaurant_ > In 1908, Philippe decided that since his delicatessen customers >seemed to like to eat in his place, a restaurant was the logical >thing. He opened one at 300 N. Alameda St. > The meals he served there have been the subject of many a >reminiscence by Los Angeles oldsters. > He served his customers all they could eat plus a pint of what he >still describes as "good claret wine" for two-bits. > Those were the days when the crowds fairly mobbed him. > In those days Philippe was buying 12-ounce loaves of French bread >at 40 for a dollar. he paid 4 cents a pint for milk and 13 cents a >gallon for wine. > _On City Hall Site_ > After four years he moved his restaurant to 136-138 N. Spring St. >That's where the City Hall now stands. > His new restaurant was somewhat more pretentious than the old. >It had a three-piece orchestra! > And he charged 35 cents for his meals! > The restaurant prospered bu Philippe wanted a rest. After a few >months he sold out. > But he grew restless and went back into business. He and his >brother Arbin set up a new delicatessen, this time at 817 N. Alameda >St., but in 1916 they separated and Philippe continued in it alone. > Business got so good that Philippe needed larger quarters. In >1918 he moved his place to 246 Aliso St. > _Sandwich Is Born_ > That was where the French-dip sandwich was born. A policeman was >one of its creators. As Philippe tells it: > "One day a police officer asked me if I would mind splitting one >of these large loaves of French bread and filling it with 'some of >the delicious roast pork.' I was not too busy, so I said, 'Sure.' >Then he asked me to (Col. 3--ed.) 'please cut it in half. I've got >a friend outside who can eat it.' Then he asked for some pickles, >onions and olives." > Philippe charged 35 cents for the works and says that was the >start of the "man-size" sandwich. The next day the policeman and >his friend returned with several other friends. > _Dipped in Gravy_ > "Then we started making French-roll sandwiches for those who had >smaller appetitites," he says. > >(To be continued--NYU Library is closing at midnight!) From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Wed Dec 31 06:04:18 2003 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (Vida J Morkunas) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:04:18 -0800 Subject: instructions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow. The instructions' writer is not only linguistically limited, but directionally challenged ! Aside from the instructions, how do you like your new pen? Is this a pen that doubles as a Palm Pilot stylus? Cheers ! Vida. Vidamorkunas at telus.net -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Mark A. Mandel Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 7:46 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: instructions For the Micro Innovations 4-in-1 Stylus Pen: >>> TO USE: 1. In order to properly select the function of this pen, you must hold the pen horizontally flat (perpendicular to the ground). Note: This pen uses gravity to determine its function. <<< Words fail me. (They certainly failed this writer! or vice versa.) -- Mark A. Mandel From orinkh at CARR.ORG Wed Dec 31 12:42:55 2003 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 07:42:55 -0500 Subject: "adVERsary"? Message-ID: > >I had the following question from someone I know at Microsoft. I've >never heard the "adVERsary" pron, and the OED gives only a version >with first-syllable stress. Is this simply a mistake, or what? > >Geoff Nunberg . . . ODE2 (the recently published update to NODE) gives adVERsary as a possible adjectival prons (when the word is used to mean adversarial), but it gives ADversary as the only noun prons. Perhaps this antepenult stress is slippage from other Brit prons like conTROVersy. I don't recall that I've heard adVERsary but it wouldn't seem jarring coming from an RP speaker. Orin Hargraves From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Dec 31 13:52:11 2003 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:52:11 -0000 Subject: "adVERsary"? In-Reply-To: <3FD63B1B@mail.carr.org> Message-ID: Orin Hargraves wrote: > ODE2 (the recently published update to NODE) gives adVERsary as a > possible adjectival prons (when the word is used to mean adversarial), > but it gives ADversary as the only noun prons. Perhaps this antepenult > stress is slippage from other Brit prons like conTROVersy. I don't > recall that I've heard adVERsary but it wouldn't seem jarring coming > from an RP speaker. As a non-RP speaker with what started out as a lower-class London accent of the immediate postwar years, but which has been modified since, I would always say "adVERsary" (not that I have cause to say it often). My wife (from a lower middle-class north London family) does the same. Neither of us would find it easy to get our tongues around the stress pattern of "ADversary". -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Dec 31 16:14:27 2003 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 11:14:27 -0500 Subject: "substance-free" Message-ID: Heard on the local public radio station's Community Calendar this morning: One of our upstate towns is having a "Substance-free Celebration" tonight! Ethereal? Vaporous? Spirituous -- er, um -- Spiritual? Hmmm. A. Murie From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Dec 31 16:14:42 2003 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 11:14:42 -0500 Subject: "substance-free" Message-ID: Controlled. In other words, no recreational drugs and, most likely, no alcoholic beverages. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: sagehen [mailto:sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM] Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 11:14 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "substance-free" Heard on the local public radio station's Community Calendar this morning: One of our upstate towns is having a "Substance-free Celebration" tonight! Ethereal? Vaporous? Spirituous -- er, um -- Spiritual? Hmmm. A. Murie From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 31 16:21:42 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 11:21:42 -0500 Subject: "substance-free" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:14 AM -0500 12/31/03, sagehen wrote: >Heard on the local public radio station's Community Calendar this morning: >One of our upstate towns is having a "Substance-free Celebration" tonight! >Ethereal? Vaporous? Spirituous -- er, um -- Spiritual? Hmmm. >A. Murie Right; this has been around in the form of "substance-free floors" and "substance-free dorms" for at least 6 years. One of my favorite examples of clipped compounds. larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 31 17:03:34 2003 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 09:03:34 -0800 Subject: innovators and followers (was Fed Up) In-Reply-To: <106.2a8460c7.2d190e7f@aol.com> Message-ID: On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:20 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote, in response to me: --------------------------------- > In a message dated 12/22/03 11:23:54 AM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU > writes: > >> (just to be clear, let me remind >> everyone, again, that most speakers with an innovative form are not >> themselves the innovators, but merely the vehicles of the form's >> spread, so that it makes no sense to ask after the grammatical >> rationale for their usage. they're just repeating what they hear.) -------------------------------- > >Yes, and even this is not complicated enough. absolutely. i cut my posting short, and ron here supplies important additional substance. > >After all, if innovative forms > >didn't make some linguistic sense, followers will not follow the > innovators > >(all other things being equal). So innovations of the "fed up > with/fed up of" > >variety are probably real options for most people--i.e., a number of > people will > >be inclined to innovate from time to time. indeed. the way i like to look at these things is that linguistic elements have *intrinsic* values -- regularity/generality, clarity of various sorts, ease of various sorts -- as well as social values, and that innovations are guided mostly (but not entirely) by intrinsic values, while complex interactions of intrinsic and social values guide spread. (this is not a particularly novel view, though the way i frame it might be a bit novel.) certain innovations are likely to be made again and again, independently, because they are *improvements* on the existing elements -- improvements in the sense that they are intrinsically more valuable. regularizations that eliminate straightforward anomalies are of this sort. it would scarcely make sense to ask where "hisself" for "himself" and "theirselves" for "themselves" originated and how these forms spread so as to become nonstandard variants all over the english-speaking world, when they are being spontaneously invented every week by children acquiring english. > Moreover, innovations surely begin > variably--sometimes one will say one thing, sometimes another... yes, of course. which means that for some time (maybe short, maybe very very long) the innovative and older variants will be in competition with each other. at the very beginning, the innovative variant might have the value -- both intrinsic and social -- of *novelty* (and the older variant the value of *conservatism*), but very quickly the history of these things becomes lost to speakers, who then choose among variants on the basis of other intrinsic and social values. if one variant is the dominant one among the social groups you identify strongly with, then you're probably going to go with that one, intrinsic values be damned. but if the choice isn't heavily determined on social grounds, intrinsic values can promote the spread of the innovation. so the old "subjunctive" counterfactual ("if I/she were...") was swamped by the simpler use of past forms in counterfactuals ("if I/she was...", in which the verb BE is aligned with all the other verbs in the language), and now the WOULD-counterfactual ("if you would ask them, they would..."), which has the virtue of clarity, is rapidly swamping the potentially ambiguous past-for-counterfactual. spread on the basis of intrinsic values leads to a situation in which critics of language use who resist innovation are both baffled and alarmed by the appearance of "nonstandard", "vulgar", "mistaken" etc. variants in the speech and writing of presumably educated people, people who ought to know better. such critics are then inclined to conclude that the educational system, indeed the whole social fabric, is going to hell in a handbasket, or that the barbarians are taking over the citadels, or both. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From self at TOWSE.COM Wed Dec 31 17:49:37 2003 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 09:49:37 -0800 Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > _egosurf_ 'to try to find references to oneself in search engines', > e.g. to autogoogle 'egosurf' has been around for a long while. Search engines made it possible to egosurf for mentions on the Web, but James "Kibo" Parry, legend has it, used to egosurf newsgroups back when by grep-ing his newsfeed, in the days before Deja News came on the scene. He'd then respond to any post that mentioned his nickname. First mention of "egosurf" in Googja is 28Mar1995. My first test of any new search engine I come across is to egosurf and see how many hits I can get on my name. -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Dec 31 18:16:28 2003 From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 10:16:28 -0800 Subject: Philippe's French-Dip Sandwich (1951) In-Reply-To: <200312310511.hBV5BSf0007972@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: "Across the street from Terminal Annex" at 1001 N. Alameda St. Phillippe's Original Sandwich Shop. Still with sawdust on the floor, still with people coming from all over to go there. It was the only place for breakfast when we stayed in a motel near the train station (THAT was another story!). Phillippe's is a Los Angeles stop, and it's still there. And the prices are low enough that they SEEM as if they might still be 35 cents for a sandwich. Put it on your list. Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Philippe's French-Dip Sandwich (1951) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The first LOS ANGELES TIMES "dip(ped) sandwich" citation is only 1930. > Here's the important article--a better-late-than-never 1951. > > > > PHILIPPE'S FOUNDER RECALLS BUSY DAYS; Man Who Made First French-Dip Sandwich Sees Restaurant Bearing Name Close Doors > Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 27, 1951. p. 27 (1 page) > > Philippe Mathieu, now 74, whetted a carving knife and his memories yesterday and talked of the times when he sold the best-known meal in Los Angeles for 25 cents. > e looked over his shoulder at the years that have passed, and back to the days when crowds lined up outside his place at 500 N. Alameda St. to buy his meals. > "Sometimes," he said in his home at 1110 Marion Ave., "the crowds would be so big that people passing would call police, thinking there was a fight going on." > _French Dip Sandwich_ > Those were the days when he was the poor man's Delmonico, the man who had thrust upon him the trick of devising the first "French-dip sandwich." it was a trick that was to make him a modest fortune. It also was to make him work himself to the brink of the grave. > Most people nowadays think of Philippe's as at 354 Allen St., and that's where it was for 26 years. Of course, now it has vanished, one of the victims of the wreckers and the bulldozers which have been sweeping away the relics and memories of yesterday to make way for the Ramona Freeway of tomorrow. > Philippe's was several places. All of them have gone the way of the last, as rubble and debris cleared for the path of progress. > _From France_ > Philippe came from Southern France. At 14 he got his first job in Aix-en-Provence in a small "charcuterie," French for delicatessen store. His pay was his food and care and nothing a week. > he went to Algiers and worked as an apprentice cook, again for board and room and nothing a week. At 21 he spent a year in the French army. > He had had enough of poor pay. But he worked two more years to get enoug money to come to this country. > "This is a wonderful country," he calls it. > he came in the steerage, and arrived in Buffalo 10 days after President McKinley was assassinated there. > He worked in lumber camps and then in a hotel in Buffalo, where he worked up in 15 months from dishwasher to second cook. > _Came Here in 1903_ > In 1903 he came to Los Angeles and worked as night chef in the Angelus Hotel, then one of this city's leading hostelries. > Five and a half months later he had enough money to go into business for himself. For $150 he bought a delicatessen store at 617 Alameda St. > That was his start. > "I didn't make much money," he said, "and I worked hard. But I knew I was on the right track." > The start of his sandwich business was unintentional. His customers started it. He had a row of open barrels each half-covered with planks. Each barrel contained a different relish--pickled cucumbers, pickled onions. olives and such. > (Col. 2--ed.) > He sold, of course, French bread. And, also of course, cooked meats. Customers would come in, buy a French roll or a loaf of French bread, borrow a carving knife and slit the bread open, buy meat and make their own sandwiches. > "They would have me dip into the barrels for their relishes and every customer would have a sandwich to his own taste," Philippe says. > He prospered, but very modestly. But in 1908 he felt the future was secure. He was in love. He married. She was Josephine Chaix and, of course, a Frenchwoman. It was a good marriage. It produced two daughters, Alice and Berthe, and in the later years of Philippe's places, all four worked. They worked like beavers. Alice is now married and has two sons, Philiipe and Andre. Bertha is a cashier in a 7th St. apparel shop. > _Starts Restaurant_ > In 1908, Philippe decided that since his delicatessen customers seemed to like to eat in his place, a restaurant was the logical thing. He opened one at 300 N. Alameda St. > The meals he served there have been the subject of many a reminiscence by Los Angeles oldsters. > He served his customers all they could eat plus a pint of what he still describes as "good claret wine" for two-bits. > Those were the days when the crowds fairly mobbed him. > In those days Philippe was buying 12-ounce loaves of French bread at 40 for a dollar. he paid 4 cents a pint for milk and 13 cents a gallon for wine. > _On City Hall Site_ > After four years he moved his restaurant to 136-138 N. Spring St. That's where the City Hall now stands. > His new restaurant was somewhat more pretentious than the old. It had a three-piece orchestra! > And he charged 35 cents for his meals! > The restaurant prospered bu Philippe wanted a rest. After a few months he sold out. > But he grew restless and went back into business. He and his brother Arbin set up a new delicatessen, this time at 817 N. Alameda St., but in 1916 they separated and Philippe continued in it alone. > Business got so good that Philippe needed larger quarters. In 1918 he moved his place to 246 Aliso St. > _Sandwich Is Born_ > That was where the French-dip sandwich was born. A policeman was one of its creators. As Philippe tells it: > "One day a police officer asked me if I would mind splitting one of these large loaves of French bread and filling it with 'some of the delicious roast pork.' I was not too busy, so I said, 'Sure.' Then he asked me to (Col. 3--ed.) 'please cut it in half. I've got a friend outside who can eat it.' Then he asked for some pickles, onions and olives." > Philippe charged 35 cents for the works and says that was the start of the "man-size" sandwich. The next day the policeman and his friend returned with several other friends. > _Dipped in Gravy_ > "Then we started making French-roll sandwiches for those who had smaller appetitites," he says. > > (To be continued--NYU Library is closing at midnight!) > From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Dec 31 18:53:19 2003 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:53:19 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20word=20of=20the=20year?= Message-ID: Thanks, Dennis! We'll toss this mad cow in the hopper and see who bites. - Allan From alcockg at SRICRM.COM Wed Dec 31 19:20:09 2003 From: alcockg at SRICRM.COM (Gwyn Alcock) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 11:20:09 -0800 Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates In-Reply-To: <200312301928.OAA23140@excellent.cnchost.com> Message-ID: "Moded" may be (related to) "moted", which we used ca. mid-1980s, meaning having done something futile, embarrassing, or generally stupid. I have no idea where it came from. The pronunciation of the t was blunted until it sounded like a d. (We used to argue about the spelling, but general agreement was that it was spelled with a t.) Real-life example, spring 1986: Woman (a neighbor of mine in the dorms) yelling to the unknown thief who'd broken into her car and stolen the stereo: "Ha, ha, moted! Stole a car stereo that doesn't work!" Gwyn Alcock -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:28 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates Some current slang terms with which I was unfamiliar: _(to be/get) moded_ 'mocked, made an ass of' Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 31 20:51:33 2003 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:51:33 -0500 Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:20 AM -0800 12/31/03, Gwyn Alcock wrote: >"Moded" may be (related to) "moted", which we used ca. mid-1980s, meaning >having done something futile, embarrassing, or generally stupid. I have no >idea where it came from. > >The pronunciation of the t was blunted until it sounded like a d. (We used >to argue about the spelling, but general agreement was that it was spelled >with a t.) > >Real-life example, spring 1986: >Woman (a neighbor of mine in the dorms) yelling to the unknown thief who'd >broken into her car and stolen the stereo: >"Ha, ha, moted! Stole a car stereo that doesn't work!" > >Gwyn Alcock Interesting. For me, "moded" and "moted" are indeed homonyms, both with a voiced flap, but I can't find hide nor hair of either of them in RHHDAS and I'm virtually certain I've never come across either before with this meaning. Is this regional? Where was the dorm in question? Anyone else have an origin for this one? I did find an entry on an online slang dictionary supporting my student's (and Gwyn's) intuition, but it doesn't help with either the distribution or origin: moded adj 1. messed up, weird. ("My computer got all moded and then it crashed.") 2. embarassed. Usually used after someone does something stupid. ("Now don't you feel moded!") Submitted by Emily Marcroft, UC Berkeley, USA, 20-02-1998. larry > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Laurence Horn >Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:28 AM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates > > > >Some current slang terms with which I was unfamiliar: > >_(to be/get) moded_ 'mocked, made an ass of' > > > >Larry From alcockg at SRICRM.COM Wed Dec 31 21:18:53 2003 From: alcockg at SRICRM.COM (Gwyn Alcock) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:18:53 -0800 Subject: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates In-Reply-To: <200312312052.PAA04782@intrepid.cnchost.com> Message-ID: The dorm in question was at the University of California, Riverside (southern California). Speaker was from the Los Angeles Basin somewhere, I think. The word was fairly widely used among my dorm-mates in the second sense you gave below, not in the first sense, as I recall. G. Alcock -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 12:52 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: new (or unfamiliar to me) words from undergraduates At 11:20 AM -0800 12/31/03, Gwyn Alcock wrote: >"Moded" may be (related to) "moted", which we used ca. mid-1980s, meaning >having done something futile, embarrassing, or generally stupid. I have no >idea where it came from. > >Real-life example, spring 1986: >Woman (a neighbor of mine in the dorms) yelling to the unknown thief who'd >broken into her car and stolen the stereo: >"Ha, ha, moted! Stole a car stereo that doesn't work!" > >Gwyn Alcock Interesting. For me, "moded" and "moted" are indeed homonyms, both with a voiced flap, but I can't find hide nor hair of either of them in RHHDAS and I'm virtually certain I've never come across either before with this meaning. Is this regional? Where was the dorm in question? Anyone else have an origin for this one? I did find an entry on an online slang dictionary supporting my student's (and Gwyn's) intuition, but it doesn't help with either the distribution or origin: moded adj 1. messed up, weird. ("My computer got all moded and then it crashed.") 2. embarassed. Usually used after someone does something stupid. ("Now don't you feel moded!") Submitted by Emily Marcroft, UC Berkeley, USA, 20-02-1998. larry