Big Apple Big Onion

[Beverly Flanigan]

This is purely speculative, since I haven't seen Nilsen's article, but
wouldn't the poor post-famine Irish have been likely to come with (at least
some residual) Irish?  I just saw "Gangs of New York," which portrayed some
of the newcomers as mouthing Irish phrases--maybe just religious
incantations, given the ferocity of the street fighting, and therefore
"residual" if nothing more substantive.  My digging through census records
from the 1850s and '60s (for Flanigans, obviously) also finds "Irish"
listed as the L1 of many immigrants from Ireland; "English" and "Irish"
vary considerably, and even though census records are notorious for their
inaccuracies, the listings are probably reasonably credible.  What does
Nilsen say?

At 12:24 PM 1/16/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Regarding the use of Irish in NYC in the early 19th century.
>
>There is a chapter by Kenneth E. Nilsen called "the Irish Language in New
>York, 1850-1900" in The New York Irish, Ronald H. Bayor & Timothy J.
>Meagher, eds., Johns Hopkins UPr., 1996, pp. 252-74.  This indicaties that
>there is little documentation that the Irish who immigrated to America
>before the famine were Irish-speakers, although many of them must have
>been, since it is known that Irish was very widely spoken in Ireland.  "In
>1800 about half of the Irish [in Ireland] were Irish-speaking."  (p.
>254)  But he has only assorted anecdotes about immigrants who later made
>some name for themselves who described themselves as Irish-speakers when
>they arrived over here early in the 19th C.
>
>However, I was reading in the newspaper just the other day. . . .  (My
>children have learned that when I begin a statement with this preamble to
>look doubtful and ask "and just exactly when what this newspaper
>published?  So be warned.)
>
>1821:   John Downs and Elizabeth Downs, assault and battery, did not
>appear, fined $5 and costs.
>In the last mentioned case, of Downs and his wife, the trial was attended
>with some laughable occurences.  The charge was for an assault and battery
>of a mild character.  Mrs. Downs, a corpulent lady, being called, laid
>aside her cloak, bonnet and shawl, and, coming forward, made a low
>courtesy to the court, crossed herself devoutly, and declared that she
>intended to tell the truth.  She then proceeded, most vehemently, in her
>justification; threw her arms around the District Attorney, and gave him a
>close hug, to illustrate the manner of the assault; and at length, getting
>warm in argument, she commenced speaking Irish.  Counsellor Swanton, being
>against her, commenced also to speak in Irish.  A ludicrous scene ensued;
>and the whole examination progressed in Irish, to the infinite amusement
>of the court.
>National Advocate, October 15, 1821, p. 2, col. 3
>
>I don't know who the judge was in this case, though it is probably
>possible to find out.  Presumably he didn't understand Irish himself, and
>seems to have allowed Counsellor Swanton to provide whatever translation
>of his cross-examination was wanted.
>
>I've been hoping for some years to find a loving home for this
>paragraph.  Perhaps Prof. Cassidy will take it in.
>
>I'm staying far far away from the question of the origin of the "big
>apple", however.
>
>GAT
>
>George A. Thompson
>Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
>Univ. Pr., 1998.