"Mince pies" in Cockney rhyming slang--possible insight from Barry Popik's message

[Gerald Cohen]

     Barry's May 12 message on "mince pie" caught my attention because
I have long wondered if there's any rationale behind Cockney "mince
pies" (= eyes) besides the rhyme.  Note "apples and pears" (=
stairs), known to derive both from the rhyme and from the graded
arrangement of fruit on the fruit stands.

     Note too "pig's ear" (= beer), which I've suggested might derive
from a 19th century poem. See my article "_Pig's ear 'beer' in
Cockney rhyming slang:
possible relevance of a 19th century poem," in: _Studies in Slang, Part VI_,
  by Gerald Leonard Cohen and Barry A. Popik, Frankfurt am Main: Peter
Lang, 1999, pp.90-92. The key lines of the poem for the subject at
hand are:
        "The greased pig of sophistry catch by the ear
        And drink to his health in a bumper of beer."
This reference to a pig's ear very close to mention of beer might
have been the inspiration for coining "pig's ear" (beer).  This is,
of course, only a hypothesis.

     Now to "mince pies," particularly the lyrics of the song Barry
cites at the end of his message:

>_Can she make mince pies, Billy boy, Billy boy?_
>_Can she make mince pies, Billy boy?_
>_Yes; she can make mince pies_
>_Quick's a cat can wink its eyes;_
>_But she's a young thing and cannot leave her mother._

   Note the mention of eyes in these lyrics about mince pies.  Maybe
this mention of eyes was the inspiration for coining "mince pies"
(eyes) in Cockney rhyming slang.  Again, this is only a hypothesis,
and yet perhaps researchers should consider poetry a possible source
of inspiration for Cockneys who coin new terms.

Gerald Cohen

**********

>Date:         Mon, 12 May 2003 02:00:41 -0400
>From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
>Subject:      "Mince Pie" dreams of grandmother (1934, 1939)
>Comments: cc: ASMITH1946 at aol.com
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>    DARE has "dream about one's grandmother," which is to have a bad
>dream.  Citations from 1942 and 1978 are given, indicating that
>"mince pie" can set this kind of thing off.
>
>   Reason For Dreams; HUGH BARCLAY RICH. Washington, Aug. 23; The
>Washington Post (1877-1954), Washington, D.C.; Aug 28, 1939; pg. 6,
>1 pgs:
>   "Now tell me, Squire, did you have dessert, and if so, what?"
>This with a rising inflection.  "Half a small mince pie," replied
>father.  "Now Squire," the doctor intoned, "eat the same dinner
>tonight with one exception; when you come to the dessert eat a whole
>mince pie and you will see your grandfather and grandmother both."
>(The patient had previously seen just his grandfather in a dream,
>and had asked for a remedy--ed.)
>
>
>   THE THANKSGIVING TABLE; To the Turkey and the Other Dishes That
>Are Imperative to Our National Feast, We Now Add a Variety of New
>Delicacies ; By HENRIETTA RIPPERGER; New York Times (1857-Current
>file), New York, N.Y.; Nov 25, 1934; pg. SM14, 1 pgs:
>    Around mince pie clings a good deal of folklore.  It has been
>called, in paraphrase of Shakespeare, "such stuff as dreams are made
>on."  Half a century ago a popular rhymed fable among youngsters was
>that of "The Mince Pie Prince" who insisted on taking more than one
>piece and, unable to mount the stairway to bed, sat him down on the
>lowest step and slept "rife with dreamings."  In an early-Republic
>song, still heard occasionally, one stanza runs:
>_Can she make mince pies, Billy boy, Billy boy?_
>_Can she make mince pies, Billy boy?_
>_Yes; she can make mince pies_
>_Quick's a cat can wink its eyes;_
>_But she's a young thing and cannot leave her mother._